open thread – August 30, 2024

by Alison Green on August 30, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. should i apply?*

    What to look out for before taking a contract position? I’m an engineer, who previously has only worked as a direct hire. I took some time off from working (~1 yr) , and am now trying to find a full time role. I’ve also noticed that the job marketed has softened for engineers in my area. I’m actively applying for roles, but the only time I’m hearing from recruiters is for contract positions, most commonly 12 month.

    I’ve mostly ignored the contract work so far, based on my understanding that there is usually limited to no benefits. I did talk to one recruiter about a contract role that sounded interesting, but I’m starting to second guess. I got a quick call where he asked me to confirm my pay rate, and that I was ok with it being a contract. Then he sent me an email asking me to commit to the pay / job in writing and but sent a completely different job description than the one we had originally talked about. When I emailed back about the job description, he just said they were hiring for both. If self very sales tactic like, like they were trying to get me to commit to the job / pay before I knew any details.

    Asking those with experience working contract positions (not just freelance projects)
    – Is it common to agree to the pay rate before interviewing?
    – I’m a bit worried about a bait and switch, where I agree to one job description and then end up with a different role – Is this common?
    – Just general feed back about what it’s like to work contract roles, especially in tech.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve done contract work as a software engineer twice. They were both pitched as contract-to-permanent (6 or 12 months). One turned permanent, the other did not.

      The pay rate up front discussion is not uncommon, especially if there’s a contracting/placement company involved. They’ve already got a deal with the company where you’ll be working and need to stay under that ceiling.

    2. Dandylions*

      This varies wildly by company IME.

      I’m in biotech, we routinely hire contractors on permanently. Never bait and switch and yes sadly there are no benefits. The pay is also usually less since the contracting for the wormer since the contracting agency takes such a huge cut. We pay something like $60/hr for a $30/hr role when new hires wre oaid closer to $39/hr.

      I’ve also worked for companies that don’t hire on permanently and just keep extending contractors and have definitely bait and switched. Usually by announcing a “re-org” and moving all the contractors somewhere.

      I’m hoping after th election the US job market will improve some. It’s a hot mess right now. I think everyone is in “waiting and see ” mode while still posting positions in case a “unicorn” comes around.

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I think this seems a little odd. Given that you’ve been presented with two different job descriptions, it is really difficult to make a commitment. This all seems a little odd, so proceed with caution at the very least.

      I’m sure you’ve considered this when talking about pay rate, but with no benefits, you’re also subject to taxes, so make sure you’re being paid enough to cover those taxes so you’re clearing what you need.

      1. Carol the happy*

        Yes. My husband was a white coated “Lab Rat” doing contract through a temp company. The company was the employer, and there were a few benefits. High- deductible high copay insurance, (but no self-employment tax or paperwork.) He made around 75k per year with them. Companies were allowed to poach them with a huge fee, and after 1-2 years they could be hired with no poaching fee.

        The temp workers got assigned to new teams occasionally, and he stayed with them 4 years- it was cheaper than post-grad prices for classes he needed.
        He occasionally got bait/switched, but several companies were able to give amazing references.
        (One funny thing- a place where he got an odd letter of apology; seems some woman was groping the men in the clean room- but he actually wore disposable briefs when he had to be there suited up for hours- and he hadn’t even noticed.
        I laughed like a hyena on meth- he was retroactively upset that he hadn’t noticed his butt was being fondled- and PINCHED! but the episodes were all on the security videos.)

        1. Carol the happy*

          I forgot the bit about different companies/different employment types- One company had everyone in a big meeting room, both the real hires and the contractors.

          Husband didn’t realize, so he screwed up his taxes badly at the outset. They had said “You work for us”, so he didn’t realize they weren’t taking taxes out. He had filled out what seemed like a standard W-2, and was shocked at the taxes. (Brilliant, but not at accounting.) Lessons learned on all sides. That company now makes sure everybody knows if they’re self-employed, and even has a person in accounting and finance help them with tax forms.

          1. Cj*

            a company can’t classify you as a contractor just because they want to. your husband apparently worked at the same location as the people that were classified as employees. if he used the companies equipment, had to work the hours for company told him to, and generally treated they him like an employee, then he was an employee.

            as other people had posted here, a contractor works for a company that has clients that their employees work for. they are paid by the Contracting Company, who pays the employers share of FICA taxes, withholds the employees taxes, and receives a W-2. Contracting companies may or may not have benefits. like when your husband worked as a lab rat through a temp agency.

            since your husband was told “you work for us”, they apparently weren’t going through a contracting company, and your husband was an employee of the company.

            a freelancer is self-employed, but they work shorter term projects for several different companies, not longer term for one company. they also get to set their own hours, Etc.

            what tax year was this that this happened to your husband? there is a form that you can fill out if he was misclassified as a contractor. as a CPA, I’m kind of ashamed to admit that I don’t know if this has to be done when you file your original return, or if you can do it with an amended return, but I’ve only run into this situation affecting a couple clients during the 40 years I’ve been doing taxes.

    4. Contract Work Advice*

      My experience has been construction (PM/Project Engineering), but some things are pretty standard across…

      1) Agreeing to a pay rate or range isn’t uncommon, because frequently the client company puts a cap on the billing rate they are willing to pay, thus the contracting company puts a cap on what they can pay you.
      2) Bait & Switch can happen, but is usually because someone wasn’t exactly clear on what they needed or things changed during the process.
      3) Even if the contracting company is offering you a W-2, you should price yourself at a point that you can fund your own health insurance (check the Exchange rates for a silver plan) and your own time off (holidays and PTO needs) because very commonly these aren’t included in the role. For 3 weeks vacation and 10 paid holidays, you should up your rate by at least 10 to 12%. Then, as you work, put that extra $ in a savings account to fund days off. (A common mistake is to spend it all as you are paid, then feel like you can’t take time off because you won’t get paid.)
      4) Some client companies treat contractors well and some treat them as second class citizens. You shouldn’t expect to be included in most of the employee stuff (like wellness challenges and internal announcements), but that also helps you not have to get involved in office politics. I liked just being able to focus on my work.
      5) Contracts can be ended prior to the original end date, and usually that happens with no notice and no severance. So, if you start a contracting role, save up a month’s take-home so that if that happens, you have a little buffer while you look.
      6) Always be looking for the next contract role…when you work contract there is a lot more risk and volatility…always have your eye out for the next one.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        This is very good advice, especially the part about saving to “pay” yourself for days off.

      3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        3) Even if the contracting company is offering you a W-2, you should price yourself at a point that you can fund your own health insurance (check the Exchange rates for a silver plan) and your own time off (holidays and PTO needs) because very commonly these aren’t included in the role. For 3 weeks vacation and 10 paid holidays, you should up your rate by at least 10 to 12%. Then, as you work, put that extra $ in a savings account to fund days off. (A common mistake is to spend it all as you are paid, then feel like you can’t take time off because you won’t get paid.)

        And even if they do offer insurance et al, “Consulting”/Contracting is notorious for lousy benefits. Do all the math and legwork up front and price it into what you’re willing to accept.

      4. Yes to Contract work!*

        This is excellent advice. Negotiating pay rate up front is common, as is a clear description of the (project) role, accountabilities, and termination clauses. #3 above is really important. Thing about contract work is that they need to be clear and specific, unlike jobs, where having an employment contract in America is not typical.

        Look for reciprocity in your contract. I always send back the contract for example if they have a one way termination clause (they can give me no or 1 week notice but I must give 4 weeks) is a non starter.

        Always have a fully signed contract with pay rate and terms before you do any work. Always. Be careful about non-competes given they are legally still a thing. Contract work can be short term, so they can impact your employment depending on the market you’re in.

        If you sniff out weird stuff, push back. For example one company insisted I use my own computer etc. (normal) but I would be required to submit it for “their security review” which may mean I would get needed connectivity “and monitoring” software loaded up. Now I needed their VPN but I said I’d have to pre-approve all apps, and would not approve monitoring software on any device I own. That I would be physically with my device at all times, and that would be paid time to do it remotely or otherwise. Did they still want to proceed or would they like to provide their own device to use only on their work? I usually have a separate laptop I use for contract work anyway. Another cost to factor in. In this case, they gave me a laptop with standard setup. Another: I push back on “being assigned to different roles or projects as they wish” type language when they are hiring me for a specific role or project. I usually keep flexible about that sort of thing, but I always insist on a “mutually acceptable in writing” type clarifier (which could be email). I am not agreeing to be a say project manager on X engineering project then being put on data clean up for six months unless I agree to it first.

        I’ve learned this and more because I like contract work for all the reasons in #4. I can focus on doing delivering an excellent work product to them, build business relationships, not get caught up in office drama, and not participate in those awful love-ins oops I mean corporate retreats and team building bs-shops and get on with it.

        1. An Australian In London*

          I declined one contract because it contained a very generic phrase about being able to be redeployed to do any work at any location at any time.

          I pointed out that that would include being rung at 2am and told to clean a manager’s toilet, or babysit their kids for a week.

          “Oh but we’d never use it like that!”
          “Great! Then you’ll have no problem removing that clause, or at least amending it to something suitable like comparable work that I am suited for at usual business locations in usual business hours, right?”
          “Oh no we can’t do that.”

          I did not sign that contract.

      5. Contracting101*

        That sounds great, but I’ve never worked for a company allowed contractors to take vacations. You’re supposed to do that between gigs.

        1. JSPA*

          That’s got to vary by contact length? What’s potentially reasonable for a 4 month contract is untenable for “may extend to 4 years.”

    5. SayHey*

      Re recruiters: are you going to be an employee of theirs, under contract for one of their clients? If so, then they have to take out taxes and may also have benefits. And depending on where you live, and how big their company is (the recruiters co.) they have to offer a min # of paid days sick leave (3-5/yr). ASK about which job you are applying for and what pay is for each. AND how many hours are guaranteed each week for these 12 months. An option to work over holidays is allowed for Fed gov contracts. I have also been in sits: we guarantee you 35-40 hrs/wk as well as we’d like you for 6 hrs/day for 3 days then–oops! We only have 2 days of work at the end of the second day. Have all in writing before you sign. Good luck!

      1. Cj*

        paid leave has gotten better, and will be getting better yet, in Minnesota.

        it started in 2024 that employers are required to give up to 48 hours of sick and safe leave a year. employers can give it to you all at the beginning of the year, or it can be accrued during the year. I think it’s something like 1 hour of leave the cruise for every 30 hours you work, and those hours don’t need to be in the same pay period. You might earn less than 48 hours a year, but that is way better than nothing.

        starting in 2026, Minnesota will have paid Family Leave of up to 12 weeks. it is paid through insurance, not out of tax dollars. the employer pays most of the premium, and a small percentage is withheld from the employees paycheck for their share.

        I don’t remember offhand what $ of your usual wage you get for paid leave. I think it might be something like 50% or so, but it might be less so don’t quote me on that.

        this, of course, applies to people that are employees of Contracting companies, not freelancers.

    6. Contracting101*

      I’ve done a lot of contracting. If it’s through a recruiter the recruiter will typically want to know if you’re okay with what they want to pay for a position. Sometimes they’ll ask you for a desired range, sometimes ask about a specific salary. It is perfectly okay to say I need to know more about the role to know if I’m willing to do it for $x/hour. I’ve almost never had a recruiter push back/not submit me under those circumstances, but it has happened once or twice. In this case the later decision is gdnerally yes or no to the rate, although I have had some recruiters push back and ask what it would take to get to yes and negotiate a bit. However, be aware any negotiation at that point is typically coming out of the agency cut so it’s unlikely to be more than a couple of dollars an hour.

      You may get contacted by multiple agencies for the same job. It is your responsibility to be aware of who you’re bvb being submitted to and make sure there are no double submissions or you will lose the job if offered and likely get blacklisted from the agency and the company hiring. Some agencies will try to withhold the company name; decline to be submitted if they do. Also, it can cause issues if you tell the first recruiter no and a subsequent recruiter yes even if recruiter 2 offers more money. The first recruiter brought the job to your attention, they “own” you and are due a fee if you take the job. Having multiple agencies claim they represent you in any way to the same employer is the kiss of death. In most cases they own that relationship for 6-12 months after the contract ends; they have to okay going perm and get first crack at additional contracts in that timeframe.

      Most contracts do not turn permanent. It does happen – I am 4.5 years into a fulltime hire from what started as a 6 week contract then extended to 3 months, then 4 months followed by a fulltime offer, and eventually 8 months until the agency was willing to let me turn permanent without an additional big fee.

      These days most agencies offer some benefits, but they are lousy. You can get much better healthcare on the exchanges and sick time usually requires jumping through many hoops including a dr note. It is unusual to get any other type of paid time off and most employers expect contractors not take unpaid time off except for emergency. I’ve heard this may be less true for some contracts over a year long, but I’ve never worked one that long so I don’t know firsthand.

      Read your agreement carefully. Some can gave weird or very lopsided clauses. I’ve seen ridiculous non-compete clauses, probkematic IP clauses, and even one place that tried to claim they didn’t have to pay you if they didn’t like your work (and you wouldn’t find out until 6+ weeks in when the first monthly check was due).

      Most commonly I’ve gotten paid weekly when working through an agency and monthly when working directly for the company as a contractor (yes, this can happen even with w2 contracts).

      Good luck!

      1. Cj*

        what do you mean by a W-2 contract? if you get a w-2, you aren’t a contractor, you are an employee.

        1. Contracting101*

          Most contracting is done via employment agencies. You are a temporary w-2 employee of the agency working for their client. There is some 1099 contracting but it us not as common and usually is arranged directly by the company. For 1099 contracting (also called freelancing) you get no benefits at all and have to pay bk other halves of FICA taxes, but you also may be able to deduct some expenses from your taxes. Note there are some agencies that offer a choice between w-2 and 1099, but this is increasingly rare. It is also possible to have a w-2 contract directly with the company but it almost never happens (I was offered one once then they came back to me and told me they had to switch me to 1099 because they didn’t have any existing employees in my state).

    7. Distractable Golem*

      To cover the differential in your taxes, retirement contribution, health care, disability insurance, and “paying yourself” for time off as suggested above, you should ask for an hourly rate that is 100% higher than your employee salary would have worked out to be.

      I learned this the hard way.

      1. ContractorRates*

        You can ask, but no one will pay it. That’s a fallacy I’d always heard before I did any contracting. I’ve never come close to that, and I’ve occasionally even had my pay go up when I’ve switched from contracting to full time. It shouldn’t, but it has. The agency markup is huge and tends to keep rates down.

    8. Spacedog*

      I’ve contracted off and on for 20 years. More. I typically find that the rate is one of the first things to come up and also it’s a little weird when staffing agencies don’t mention it right away.

      But also you shouldn’t have to commit to anything in writing without an offer, regardless of whether full time or contract….

    9. An Australian In London*

      It’s time to talk with an accountant about what your hourly/daily rate needs to be to equal your current effective after-tax after-benefits pay. This is a complex topic, and contractors with years of experience routinely get it wrong.

      You described contracting as having “limited to no benefits”. This is incorrect. It has negative benefits that you must pay yourself to cancel out. Other answers here have touched on many of them: taxes, certainly, but also paid sick leave, paid holiday leave, and paid public holidays. Depending on your country, state, and city laws, you may also lose paid overtime. Certainly, you are losing everything that’s ever been described as a benefit in any job you’ve ever had, including but not limited to training, health insurance and possibly even mileage.

      Your first step is to calculate what it will cost you, in after-tax terms, to provide all of those things to yourself. Then, you need to figure out your before-tax earnings to arrive at that after-tax amount. Then you need that in a daily rate – but remember this is not the annual pre-tax income divided by 365 or even divided by the number of weekdays, but divided by the number of *working* days (deduct all public holidays and any time you want to be able to take off).

      I see veteran contractors of 5+ and even 10+ years who still don’t get that arithmetic right. In countries with socialised medicine, a very rough rule of thumb is that a salaried income often needs to be increased by maybe +30-40% to achieve the same amount of actual take-home pay. In the USA, where you must also fund your own medicine, it will be much higher to break even.

      This is why I say it’s time to talk with an accountant.

      A very close #2 piece of advice I have to all new contractors or business owners is to have three bank accounts: your own personal money, your business money, and money that doesn’t belong to either that the business is holding on behalf of someone else who will come looking for it, i.e. taxes. Accountants often call this a “provisioning” account because it provides for future demands.

      It’s crucial to view the taxes owed as funds held for the government, not as your own or the business’s. Blending business and tax money can lead to a financial mess. Once money is in a provisioning account, it should never be used to cover business shortfalls. Remember, it’s not your money to spend, and using it will always have negative consequences.

      So many friends and associates break this rule and try to keep track of “this much of the money in the account is mine”. Don’t do it — have a separate account for all money that doesn’t belong to you. I cannot legally give anyone financial advice, so I’ll merely note that most demands on provisioning money are known in advance and are not a surprise, so one can lock it up in accounts with notice requirements for withdrawing it without the same liquidity issues as if that were done for the main business trading account. Investing it anywhere where capital is at risk would be unwise – remember, it’s not your money.

      With respect to your specific questions:

      1) It is expected to want to know the rate before anything else is discussed. Hiring managers have a budget, and their recruiters often have incentives to hire under that amount. They usually care about your rate more than whether you can do the job.

      2) In some ways, contracting work is an improvement on salaried work in the USA because you’ll actually have a contract. A good contract should specify the work to be done and, when done well, is attached to a job description. Don’t bother hiring a lawyer to draft you a contract template – rarely, you’ll ever use it. Clients want you to use theirs. You’ll want a lawyer to look these over at first. Maybe also an accountant.

      3) Contract roles in tech often occur when the work is essential and can’t be held hostage to hiring freezes. It’s also common that there is one budget pool for salaries and another for contractors. Be aware that in most places, contractors are second-class citizens, deliberately, because there can be employment and tax law implications for businesses that don’t sufficiently distinguish their employees from their contractors. For example, at my main client, my ID badge is a different colour to those of employees; I don’t get invited to office parties; I can’t eat in their subsidised on-site canteen; I am ineligible for most employee awards or higher duties; I am ineligible for employee training. There can’t be anything that suggests contractors and employees are interchangeable because the tax office reasonably asks what the difference between them is.

      In most countries there are concerns that contract work is less stable than salaried employment. I think that’s rubbish as it takes about the same effort to dismiss them. In any USA jurisdiction with right-to-work both jobs can be lost in a hot minute often for no reason at all. However the stigma is real and it is difficult to qualify for home loans or even a new rental as a contractor because contract income is viewed as precarious.

      So why then would anyone ever be a contractor? Purely for the money. Do it right, cover the costs, lost benefits, and taxes, and one can demand a significant premium.

  2. becca*

    Oh boy, I’m one of the first ones? I just wanted to enter this story into the “Worst Work Retreats” Hall of Fame: https://abcnews.go.com/US/office-retreat-awry-worker-allegedly-stranded-colorado-mountain/story?id=113207945

    For those who don’t want to click blindly: “A worker on an office hiking retreat to a national forest in Colorado had to be rescued after 14 of his colleagues allegedly left him stranded on a 14,230-foot mountain, authorities said.”

    1. juliebulie*

      That is my nightmare. I would be paranoid about something like this. I’m not remotely athletic or even physically fit.
      Glad he got rescued, at least. But I wouldn’t want to see any of those people ever again. I would be very sad to have 14 assholes as coworkers.

      2. People suck*

        There has to be more to this story. Wouldn’t it be awesome if someone involved wrote in to Alison and told us the rest of the story? Did they really abandon their coworker? Was he an awful person? Or did he choose to leave them and go on his own because they were awful? There’s really no excuse for abandoning him but I’d love to hear more about this.

          1. Eli*

            This was something that they had done for a number of years as a fundraiser for World Central Kitchen. They have business partners who also do the fundraiser with them. It’s not some mandatory group activity that they forced everyone into for team building purposes. There’s a lot of bad info going around.

        2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I’m thinking it was just a problem that they thought he was ahead or behind him and no one tried to check until they realized he was gone?

          1. Emma*

            he managed to ping them saying that he was lost, and they told him to go back and find his way down himself…
            two colleagues went back to try to find him at disk but turned around when it got dark. this is so sad. poor guy.

      3. Bitte Meddler*

        There were two groups of hikers: A group that wanted to summit and a group that wanted a easier hike. Apparently the guy who got stranded was between both groups (maybe he started with the summit folks but then changed to the other group?) and so when he wasn’t with Group A when they started back down, Group A said, “Oh, he must be with Group B.” Ditto for Group B when they, too, headed back to base and the guy wasn’t with them.

        There was no malice, just people who weren’t following / didn’t know about basic group hiking rules.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          That’s what I thought–it was a “he’s not here so he must be there” scenario until both groups realized he was–nowhere.

        2. Emma*

          what do you mean there was no malice? the coworkers removed the markers of the trail, and when he sent them his location to ask for help they told him to back and find the trail higher up. it took them 8 hours to alert the rescue team, full well knowing he was up there alone. how is that not malice?

    2. BellaStella*

      I read this and shared it with friends too on yet another reason to hate these retreats that are ‘fun’

    3. FricketyFrack*

      That story is infuriating. That’s a bad team building activity anyway, but were his coworkers actively trying to kill him? Jesus.

        1. FricketyFrack*

          I know! I’m from CO and no one I know would ever leave someone behind like that. I can see if there was a medical emergency and they sent a couple people to get help or something, but the entire group leaving and then taking all the things marking the trail down seems like everyone is either unbelievably stupid or malicious.

          1. becca*

            They didn’t report him missing until 9pm! Which was 8 hours after they first realized he was lost! And FIVE HOURS after a STORM with rain and high winds! There’s so many stupid things that these folks chose to do, but not calling S&R as soon as the weather got bad is one of the worst ones.

          2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

            I don’t think it was the coworkers who took the things. How I understood it was there were other hikers not part of the group that removed items.

    5. J*

      I have been dying to hear Alison’s take on this. At first I assumed it was a younger guy who insisted on summiting when everyone else turned around. but I read somewhere else that he was in his 50s and just got caught between the group that was summiting (fell behind them and no one waited) and the group behind him (who turned around earlier and assumed he was with the summiters).

      What a nightmare, and a terrible idea for a work retreat.

      1. Raisineye*

        AND the summit group took down all of their trail markers as they went down, leaving him without a clear path! I would be LIVID.

    6. Elizabeth*

      I was going to post about this, too! I believe that there are a couple of very awkward conversations that should happen at the office. First, who chose mountain climbing as a team building activity needs to have a real conversation with HR, and then the team members all need to talk about what team building really means.

    7. ursula*

      How ON EARTH was one person left hiking alone, under any circumstances?? Much less for something that was supposed to be a team-building event??? How was it decided that he would go it alone and for what possible reason. Honestly. What a nightmare.

      1. HA2*

        Poor communication. Sounds like they split into two groups, and each group assumed he was with the other one (but instead he had gotten separated from both groups).

        1. Not your typical admin*

          That sounds like what happened. We have 2-3 families we hike with frequently so ages from 9-50. We always put 2 people designated to be at the front, and one of the other moms and I are always at the back, with stops selected to gather everyone and take a break. Unless you actively plan, it’s easy to assume a person is with another part of the group, especially if people are going back a forth between smaller groups of people.

          1. RLC*

            “Unless you actively plan….” says it all. No matter the activity or the environment, failure to plan can end badly. Years of vintage automobile club rallies have taught me the lessons of “slowest cars in the lead”, “preset stops and checkpoints”, and “assigned person last in line to corral stragglers and search for them as needed”. Honestly the safest approach with many groups is to use the same methods as one would for a primary school field trip.

            1. Barnes and Noble Bridge Burner*

              I really wish hiking groups would do that. As a slower hiker, trailing a quarter of a mile the entire hike, then not getting a rest when I’d catch up so demoralized me, I quit going to group hikes. :/

              1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                That sucks, and I’ve been there. Good groups will assign a good hiker to bring up the rear, so nobody gets left, and make sure the slower hikers gets rest breaks.

          2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            I was once part of a Halloween gathering attended by at least 10 family units which was snacks and fun and then trick or treating in the neighborhood. My smaller TorT group ended up with a whole extra kid — parents with other siblings I guess. I was so glad that we at least scooped him up and brought him back to the party house because I had no idea whose kid he was.

          3. goddessoftransitory*

            My aunt used to do a lot of hiking, and the cardinal rule in her group was: the slowest hikers in front*, and everyone has eyes on the entire group. That way one person doesn’t gradually fall behind and get disoriented.

            *This was a group that had hiked together for years and knew each others’ speeds, not putting a complete beginner in front!

    8. Productivity Pigeon*

      Oh my god.

      That’s messed up in soooo many ways.

      This is when my crisis management training kicks in.

      I’m not working at the moment but when I was, I always, always tried to assume that the worst thing would happen and how we should deal with it.

      Even if it was just a supplier meeting, I would bring up things like “what if essential person get sick? Who do we send instead?”

      I can’t tell you how many times I heard “oh well, *that’s* not gonna happen!”…

      Hiking a 14000ft mountain as a team building activity has SOOO many worst outcomes. Like this one.

      Awful!

    9. WellRed*

      I saw this! Another reason not to do this stuff for team building. Was he not a team player and charged on ahead? Did the team abandon him?

    11. Stuart Foote*

      I think the headlines are a tad misleading…as far as I can tell, the other co-workers turned back and the co-worker who got lost wanted to press on and summit the mountain. So they didn’t exactly leave him behind as the headlines suggested, though they did remove the objects they’d left to mark the trail and it was a very long time before they noticed he was missing.

    13. Miss Buttons*

      I would absolutely refuse to go on a difficult hike like this as a team-building activity. I hope the fool who organized and required this gets sued. At least the company should have to repay local search and rescue teams. That’s a lot of taxpayer money.

      1. becca*

        Search and rescue teams is one of the places where I am happy for my money to go. I don’t want anyone sitting in the woods afraid to call for help because they can’t afford the rescue operation. Health care and S&R are two things we should not be charging people for, any more than we charge people for the fire department when they accidentally set the thanksgiving turkey on fire. And in just about every rescue (or failed rescue), there’s almost always an element of, “Oh, if that person had only done [insert what seems like very basic thing when you’re safe on your couch]” that makes it easy to justify to ourselves passing along the bill. Mother Nature is extremely unforgiving when you make a silly mistake, I think humans should be better than that.

        Don’t get me wrong, I have SO MANY THOUGHTS on this poor guy’s coworkers and all the things they should’ve done differently. I think the company should make a sizable donation to Chaffee County S&R. I don’t think they should be required to pay.

      2. constant_craving*

        As someone who has done a lot of SAR myself, I am really opposed to charging for SAR. All my teammates were too.

        We are there to help. We do not want the search being less successful or more dangerous because someone was afraid to call us for fear of a bill.

    14. OperaArt*

      And then there’s the other bad workplace story from this week, about the Wells Fargo employee in Arizona who clocked in, but was found dead in her cubicle 4 days later. Admittedly, 2 of those days were over the weekend, but there was onsite security. Someone should have found her.

        1. Katydid*

          I was hoping that someone would mention this one too! Sounds like miscommunication on the mountain, but was no one walking through this random office building?? How??

          1. Procedure Publisher*

            I came across a video about it on YouTube from a news outlet. There was a smell in the area that everyone thought was caused by a sewer issue or something like that.

            Full disclosure, I was laid off from Wells Fargo late last year. So I’m not surprise no one found her considering she came in on a Friday when very few people are in office.

            1. Chocolate Teapot*

              I read the Wells Fargo employee story in the UK Guardian newspaper.

              I did think about my own office today as a lot of people were working from home or on holiday so it would be easy to overlook somebody.

    15. HugeTractsofLand*

      I read this and immediately thought of AMA! It’s so crazy to me that a random insurance company chose a 14k+ elevation mountain hike as a bonding retreat. This is exactly why you don’t make it essentially mandatory for people to do extremely physical things on company time. I’m just waiting to find out that the manager is a fitness nut who “didn’t think it’d be a problem.”

      1. I Have RBF*

        Seriously. I’m disabled, I walk with a cane and only have a limited distance I can go on fairly level ground. Even if I could go on hiking trails, I go at about half the speed of an able-bodied person. This type of “team building” is my nightmare. If they pulled it as a surprise, as in herd everyone onto a bus after telling them to wear comfortable walking shoes, then “surprise, you’re hiking up a mountain”, I would be livid.

        1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

          This really does NOT sound like a surprise or ad-hoc team building activity as others have said below and in other, better news articles than the one originally linked. It was a group of hikers who are experienced and have done this numerous times and this particular time sounds like a case of “unfortunate circumstances pile on top of each other.” The hiker drifting between the two groups (groups divided by hiking trail difficulty) and then each group thinking he was with someone else. People NOT affiliated with the retreat removing the “breadcrumb” markers. The storms.

          I seriously doubt that you or anyone else on AAM or is going to ever find yourself in this situation

      2. Eli*

        It’s something that a group of employees and many of their business partners do as a fundraising activity for World Central Kitchen. They’ve done it in previous years and from people in the know I don’t have the impression it is forced on anyone – each team member has a donation page, etc.

        1. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

          It’s a work-related outdoorsy social event so even if nothing had gone wrong: everyone here would already be up in arms about the audacity of it all.

    16. AnonForThisOne*

      I saw this. My first thought was along the lines that these team building things are only supposed to FEEL like they are going to kill you, not actually do it.

    18. AnnieG*

      Even without the hiking, the freezing rain and being left behind by the rest of the group, this activity sucked due to the dawn departure time alone.

    19. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I saw this and was going to post if if someone else hadn’t. Obviously they never heard of the buddy system!

    20. goddessoftransitory*

      I read that! At first I thought that each group thought he was with the other, but…

    21. 1LFTW*

      YES, I’m here to see if anyone was talking about this here! That was such a series of easily preventable fuckups. Scout troops know better, and do better, than what a group of 15 grown-ass adults did to that poor guy.

  3. juliebulie*

    My motivation is in the pooper.
    I look at what I’m supposed to be working on, and my eyes just slide down the screen. I am over it.
    I’m looking for something new, but in the mean time, I really need something to help me at least be able to put my eyes on my work.
    Help? Suggestions?

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Give yourself grace. Self care. Reducing your overall stress level will improve your executive function.

      1. juliebulie*

        I feel like I give myself too much grace already by being so unproductive. But you are right that I am trying to hard and getting in my own way. Not sure what to do about that in this precise moment, though. Maybe I’ll go for a walk or something.

        Yesterday I cut the grass. That didn’t actually make any difference to my motivation, but at least I got something done.

        1. Socks*

          The tricky part is that sitting around kicking yourself for being unproductive isn’t actually giving yourself grace. You just end up in this horrible space where you’re not getting anything done OR recharging (ask me how I know…)

          For me, personally, timers really help. The ratio of doing stuff/break time varies dramatically (on a good day, it might be 25 min work, 5 min break; on a bad day, it might be 5 and 10). The key is having designated break times really helps me fight the feeling that I “should” be working during those times.

        2. Lyra Belacqua*

          I feel this—but it’s easy to get into a situation where you can’t really work, but also can’t do anything restful or relaxing because you’re thinking of all the work you have to do! Setting a timer and really compartmentalizing does help (like, right now, I’m going to spend 15 minutes looking at this document, and at the end of that time I’m going to stop, even if all I’ve done is stare at it, and go on a ten-minute walk.) Making sure you get enough sleep, food, and water. Also, doing stuff offline—scrolling isn’t actually restful, especially if your job involves looking at a screen. All that said, what helps me most with this is antidepressants and lots of coffee.)

        3. Space Cadet*

          I’ve been telling myself that work is just “something I have to do for a few hours today” and then I can go home and do things I actually want to do. It’s been working, so far.
          And take things day by day.

    2. SansaStark*

      Sometimes it helps me to set a timer for 15 or 20 mins and I only have to do Unpleasant Task for that amount of time. After the timer stops, I can go back to reading AAM or whatever else I’d rather be doing. Sometimes it tricks my brain into getting started on a thing and sometimes I really do go back to whatever non-work thing I was doing before. But at least I got in that 20 minutes of real work.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Yes, I call that the “Ten Minutes in Hell” system, especially if there’s Ugly Stuff in corners which need cleaning.

    3. Alexandra Beth*

      I know that feeling. I recommend star jumps or a few seconds of jogging on the spot. That gives me just enough energy to look at my work again and hopefully get engaged enough to make it to the end of a task.

    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      Can you plan rewards to do after work? Like booking a massage, getting food from your favorite restaurants, buying that book or game you’ve been wanting ?

      I realize that’s just throwing money at the problem and it might not be possible for you, but it honestly helps me.

      I’m sure there are other rewards you could do that don’t cost a lot.

      But basically, have something you look forward to everyday (or as often as you can) after work.

      Good luck. It sucks to be so demotivated.

    5. Distracted Procrastinator*

      can you listen to an audio book or music that you listen to only when you are working productively? Sort of an audio reward for staying on task.

      When I’m having issues with productivity, I put on headphones and go find instrumental music on a streaming service. (I can’t do lyrics if I’m trying to focus.)

    6. Sanding Desk*

      Do you have a standing desk, (or a pile of books you can stack your computer on)? For me sometimes shifting into standing mode from sitting is enough of a physical cue to help me refocus. It’s a small thing but it’s definitely helped, especially when my work is on the more tedious data entry side.

        1. Sanding Desk*

          Yay! Good luck! For me, I’ve found that if I start my day standing up, drinking coffee, and NOT going on any of my normal time-wasting apps, it’s easier to pretend to be motivated :)

        2. juliebulie*

          That didn’t do much, alas. Periodically I try to work standing up, but there’s something about standing up at the desk that always makes me feel like just walking away. Poo. I’m gonna go putter around a little and see if I can reset myself.

    7. Sleepy Kirby*

      I feel you! I have had a hard time getting motivated and concentrating lately. Sometimes the only thing that motivates me is not wanting to get in trouble!

      I find YouTube videos “work with me” helpful. It’s usually someone else working with a timer in the corner for breaks. Or finding twitch streams for body doubling or working together. It’s sometimes the only thing that helps! If I’m at home, I’ll use FocusMate for a live person to work with.

    8. Cassandra*

      Gamify your tasks so they give you dopamine boosts! I use the Habitica app, and highly recommend it, but I know there are other options out there too. You don’t even have to use all the features, but if you break down your most boring tasks and reward yourself for even little tiny steps, it helps so much!

        1. juliebulie*

          I got one teeny-tiny thing done! Woohoo!!
          Now listening to binaural beats! Two more hours to go!

    10. Bunny Watson*

      I feel you. I’ve been actively avoiding a report that I need to write, but it’s getting down to crunch time. Panic is a great motivator, but I’d still prefer not to function that way. So, one thing that helps me is productive procrastination. Instead of fixating on what I “should” be working on, I look at my to do list and try to cross off some of the smaller things. I do this for a set time like one hour and then go back to my report and see if it flows any easier. Sometimes I just needed to be thinking about something else for awhile instead of beating myself up over not being productive. At least then I’ve gotten a few things accomplished as well.

      Another option is to take a few minutes and really think about all the smaller tasks needed to accomplish the whole. I write these down, and then sometimes I can see an easier place to start so that at least I can get SOME thing going instead of staring at a blank screen. Good luck!

    11. It's me, hi, I'm the comments, it's me*

      Take an attitude of curiosity, not of judgement, to your own actions. Instead of beating yourself up for being unproductive, do some experiments to see what helps you be productive. For me, music can help a lot (some tasks require familiar music, some tasks require music with no words in English, other tasks go better if I’m listening to new to me music), as can choosing a particular task that should take an hour and heading to a coffeeshop to accomplish it. I know that other people (not me!) do better with TV or podcasts on in the background. Some people react really well to the pomodoro (?) method, with strict times and breaks, others really badly! But, basically, if you can frame this as “I need to find the optimal conditions to get work done, so let’s investigate that” instead of “If I beat myself up harder I will be more productive” you’ll probably figure some stuff out that works for you.

    12. Ellis Bell*

      Couple of ideas:
      1) Go for the easy wins first, things that don’t take up much time and will give you a good few ticks on your to do list to build yourself up.
      2) If 1 doesn’t work, try the ‘eat the frog’ approach by doing the hardest thing first.
      3) Try a Pomodoro-ish technique of only working for twenty minutes or so (and try to get as much done in those twenty minutes as possible, like try to beat your previous short work session record), when time is up, take a movement break, like going for a drink or decluttering something.
      4) Doing something super physical can be a good reset if it’s possible to do on your workplace. Go power walking or clear the kitchen up, or clear out the junk cupboard.
      5) Talk to a person. This is why I will always defend the office tea round because you get to just connect with people briefly even if they’re busy, get away from your desk and return to it with a soothing hot beverage. Though of course it’s possible to do most of this without touching a tea bag.
      6) Productivity chart. I call this my “planner”. All my to do list tasks go into the several boxes which make up the time periods in the day. I tick them off as I get them done regardless of whether they’re done on time, but I can give myself double ticks if they ARE done on time, and if I get them done in half the time, I get a star. (I do give generous time allowances because I’m so frequently interrupted). My planner is incredibly beautiful and looks at its best when it’s star spangled. If I only manage to get half the things done, and only single ticks done, I downgrade my time requirements a bit for the next day.

    13. Dandylions*

      Putting the phone down helps a alot with this. When I was at this level of burn out I realized that scrolling at work was a major contributor.

    14. juliebulie*

      Thanks everyone. Less than two hours left today. It hasn’t been great, but I did get a few small things done.

      I did have to give myself some grace when I realized that there was no way I could proceed today on the thing that is most urgent, because I don’t have all the information. Even though it felt “wrong” to work on something else, it’s how I got unstuck.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Another thought for you that may resonate depending on what kind of work you do and how your brain works–

        I used to say that I procrastinated in order to create artificial deadline pressure and that I needed that to get things done. I felt guilty for the procrastination even though by any standard measure I’m highly productive. The work was getting done but I was stressed out about this “bad habit”.

        At some point I read an article that completely reframed what I was doing and how my brain works. I am *incubating*, not postponing. My brain knows I have to write that brief/prepare that presentation/do the thing. Everything I do that isn’t doing that thing is still grist for the mill. If I’m walking and listening to a podcast, something I hear may trigger a new idea or a new way of approaching that thing. Working on another task may remind me of something I want to include. Listening to a colleague in a meeting might give me a new nugget.

        With that reframing, when I do sit down (or stand at my desk–I’m better with my desk up, guess I think on my feet!) I dive in and the things that have been swimming around and bumping into each other can gel into something cohesive.

        Another tactic: If you do things that you could work on in a completely different format to switch it up, that may help. Writing things on a whiteboard, making notes with pen on paper (a pen you like and paper you like are important here), talking into an audio recorder–anything other than staring at that screen. Those different physical actions may unleash something new and fresh that’s more exciting to work with. This could be the actual work task, things you don’t want to forget that are disrupting your ability to focus on a bigger task, your shopping list–anything that’s taking up brain space.

        My team is currently reading Your Brain at Work by David Rock, which is full of insights from neuroscience. The scenarios he sets up for the married hetero couple with two kids are pretty believable for me and the ways they get bogged down and fall behind are familiar things I’ve done, like getting sucked into the details of building and tweaking a spreadsheet before establishing the big picture the spreadsheet will support. He then reruns the scene with a few tweaks at points where they recognize they’re about to fall into a typical trap and catch themselves. No blame attaches–it’s not me, it’s my brain, it’s how my brain works. This idea of changing which medium you’re working with comes from that book.

        I just put all of this advice together two days ago. I’d had “prep for that presentation” on my list for two weeks and it was the day before the talk. It was a super brief one, supposed to be only 2-3 minutes. Even so, I’d felt compelled to create slides and I’d saved a copy of an old talk that could serve as a starting point and changed the title slide. Woop woop, progress! And I was supposed to cover progress and challenges in a big policy arena in those 2-3 minutes, which wasn’t the actual topic of the old presentation, it just had some of the info or images I’d want.

        I’d been practicing various ways of opening the remarks when I went for walks. That helps me find my way into how I want to tell the story. So I had some major points in mind. I turned away from the computer and wrote the major points on a sheet of paper, read through them and thought about the order that would flow for the way I speak, and then could put them into a document and add some bullet-point detail below each one. Given that it really was supposed to be short and slides weren’t required, I dropped that task, making it much more manageable and making better use of my time. Done in maybe 20-30 minutes including a practice runthrough for timing.

        If I’d kept going with the slides I would have created something far too long that took too much time and then I’d have to cut it way down or I’d talk far too fast and run over my time trying to work it all in. I’d grabbed the wrong end of the stick and I didn’t even need that particular stick for this task; I’d just defaulted to it.

        Good luck!

        1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

          Thank you for this story! It has given me a ton of ideas, and I really like the “incubation” framing. Apparently someone asked T S Eliot how he was getting on with the Four Quartets and he said “Oh, almost finished – just have to write the words down” which is a story I love. (See also: my gf is a novelist and once took 6 months to write the first para and 6 months to write the rest of the book).

  4. Justin*

    Sigh.

    The hiring process at my job continues and the final stage is a panel of colleagues. The first one didn’t go very well – I really liked that candidate (and she could still be hired, but chances are lower now), but she seemed to do sort of what a lot of Alison’s advice has warned against. She had “dream job” syndrome and it tripped her up on some important questions.

    I guess my question is – has there ever been a time when you explicitly were clear a job would be your dream and it worked out for you? It seems like even if it is, it almost never goes well.

    But it’s hard to show enthusiasm without overdoing it, so I feel for folks who do this. I’ve done it before.

    (To be clear, it wasn’t just the enthusiasm that was the issue it was that it distracted her from answering certain questions effectively.)

    1. Veruca Salt*

      So she was too enthusiastic and had unrealistic expectations of what the position would actually involve? I’m not familiar with “dream job” syndrome.

      1. Justin*

        I’m saying her enthusiasm for our mission seems to have distracted her from a central job function.

    2. Bast*

      I’m also unclear about what dream job syndrome is — did she express her interest in doing Task A when in reality, Task A is only 10% of the job, and she’ll really be doing more Task B?

      1. Justin*

        Basically that, she couldn’t answer a central question that was really important to the job tasks

    3. M2*

      Honestly I rather have dream job syndrome than have someone who says they want to be X in 2-5 years and X is not at your org/ X is Vice President and they are applying for a Manager (and VP is 10+ years and many steps up) or something like that. People have literally said to me “I want to be Vice President of Llamma Grooming” and we are doing something totally unrelated to that!

      If you feel you need to follow up with the candidate then follow up or if she ends up being the choice but people aren’t sure then do reference checks or continue the search.

      I have also had people tell me it was their dream job, but it wasn’t, it was their dream organization and once hired after a short time started applying to what they actually wanted to do.

      I do think it’s good you are being careful and doing due diligence. Look at the resume are they a job hopper? Do reference checks. I applied for a role and they were clear they would take your references but also might do back channel checks as well.

      I once did the opposite of dream job and said I liked my current role, their recruiter reached out to me, I am interested but want to hear more and was told I did not get the role because it was not my dream. They didn’t say dream, but said they wanted someone who wanted to leave their current role.

      1. WellRed*

        To add to this: is she young and inexperienced in a way that a more experienced applicant will be able to express enthusiasm for the job without being distracted by the dream aspect?

        1. Justin*

          Relatively inexperienced at the central job function, experienced in the industry, but… we need that job function

          1. Justin*

            So yes I think the others should be able to balance it more effectively

            Sad though, I like her a ton

      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        We had someone say chirpily “I want your jobs!” when asked where she wanted to be in 5 years.

        We were the COO, HR Manager, and a department manager. I wanted to say “ALL our jobs?” but she had already raised several other red flags so we just moved on.

    4. juliebulie*

      I did have a dream job. I knew, going in, that it was my dream job. And it continued being my dream job until I lost it 18 months later in a big RIF and then I was unemployed. I was able to get a new job, but that one was my nightmare job and it was followed by another nightmare job. (But eventually I ended up somewhere good.)

      I think dream jobs can exist if you’re willing to accept that there will be parts of them that aren’t dreamy.

    5. Bike Walk Barb*

      I’ve had two dream jobs and I’m still in the second one. Sure, both brought elements I wasn’t entirely expecting and I had to do things I didn’t love-love doing, but that’s why they call it work.

      The first one was 100% exactly what I had described as my dream job for many years. I had a decent idea of what it would entail, probably should have interviewed a few more people who already held that kind of position to have a better idea of the parts that would be harder for me, but I absolutely don’t regret it.

      It was also great prep for the one I’m in now, which is the one I expect to hold for the foreseeable future. Super lucky that I’m happy, I’m good at it, I have a phenomenal team and support from the organization, I’m not motivated by my money and my decent salary and good benefits are enough.

      I’m sure my enthusiasm for my dream job came across in both interviews. But I’d been on tons of hiring committees from the other side, did my homework on the organizations, could tell a good story about how my experience prepared me for this new challenge, could answer questions with relevant examples and demonstrate I brought unique skills. Dream job didn’t mean I blew off the importance of the actual interview questions.

    6. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      I made the mistake of hiring someone who had a lot of enthusiasm and said “dream job.” They did not have the qualifications and could not be trained for the job.
      I’d be wary they’re using enthusiasm to hide the fact that they’re not qualified.

  5. WeirdChemist*

    For stapler removers, are you supposed to use them from the back folded over part of the stapler, or the front flat part of the staple?

    I’ve always done it from the back part, but I saw a coworker use it from the front and it made me wonder if I’ve been doing it wrong this whole time???

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’ve always used them to pull out from the “top” (front/flat) part of the staple, but I don’t know if it really matters?

    2. MagicEyes*

      It works either way. If you loosen up the back side first, it’s easier to remove the staple from the front without damaging the paper. If you’re in a hurry, it’s quicker to remove it from the front.

    3. Rara Avis*

      If it’s the biting kind, I believe it’s designed to grasp the front and pull it out that way.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Thick stack of paper: from the front. 2 pages stapled together: from the back.

      Just my two cents.

    6. ruthling*

      for the squeeze kind, i always attack the staple from the back. with the flat ones either way works if the staple is not through too many pages.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve always done front-ways, but as long as the staple is removed without shredding the papers, you win. :)

    8. Pocket Mouse*

      Back, then front? The biting kind that curve up to the teeth are somewhat effective at unfolding the folded part of the staple, then it’s easier to remove from the front.

    9. Not A Manager*

      First I use it on the back to loosen the prongs, then on the front to pull out the staple. Otherwise you tear the paper.

    10. Jamie Starr*

      I’ve never even considered doing it from the back. If you do it from the back, do you have to then turn the paper over and remove the staple from the top anyway? If so, that’s an extra step you don’t have if you do it from the front. (Because otherwise, aren’t you pulling the entire staple through the back of the papers?)

      1. Jamie Starr*

        Coming back to add, after reading all these comments about pulling from the front tearing the paper, that I rarely have that issue. Loosening the back then flipping and pulling out the staple from the front just seems like extra work when you can just carefully pull it from the front w/o damaging the paper. :shrug:

    11. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      There’s a way they work better, I think from the back? But whichever way works best for you is The Way.

    12. Corvus Corvidae*

      I always use them on the back of the staple to avoid tearing the paper.

      Side note, I hate the bitey kind so much and only use the one with the handle now. The bitey ones have a tendency to, well, bite me.

    14. Saturday*

      Front! My husband insists this will mess up the papers and you have to do it from the back. I am usually very good at not letting little things bug me, but this one kind of does. If he would just TRY it from the front even once…

    15. Buni*

      With the bitey kind (this is the only way I will ever think of them now, thanks) from the back first minimises rippage.

    16. RagingADHD*

      Depends how tight the staple is, and how many pages are in the stack.

      For a relatively solid stack with just enough “give” to get the teeth under the bar, I’ll go from the front.

      If it’s only 2-3 pages, it might tear, so I’ll loosen the teeth on the back first. And if the stack is so thick that the staple is embedded, I’ll also start from the back.

    18. Yorick*

      I do the back to loosen it up and then the front to get it all the way out. I find just doing the front either might not work or might destroy the paper (which is sometimes ok)

    19. Jshaden*

      For reasons lost to the mists of my dino obsessed secondary schooling, I’ve always called the bitey style staple remover a pterodactyl.

      1. Jshaden*

        Also, pterodactyls are used on the back, then the front if the pages need to be preserved. Front only if removing for shredding, etc.

    20. Bike Walk Barb*

      I have to say I love that you already have 20 replies to this, there’s no overwhelming consensus, and people have actually given this some thought and have logical explanations for why they do what they do.

      Personally, I pull from the flat side because it’s easier to slide the bitey thing’s teeth under that. But if it’s a big fat stack, as others have said, and the bent parts are really dug into the paper I’d loosen them first (or second, after tugging in vain at the flat side).

      One more reason to appreciate electronic documents.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        I was convinced it was going to start a war! Delighted to see the lively yet pacifist discussions

    21. HBJ*

      Back, then front. Unless it’s a super thick stack (rare for me), pulling from the front alone will just rip the paper.

    22. allathian*

      I always go back then front unless I’m removing the staples to shred the documents. I use violence with the staple remover and don’t have the patience to slowly pull the staple from the front that lets the ends straighten out without ripping the paper, at least on a readonably thick stack.

  6. Case Studies*

    Any copywriters in the group? I’ve been transitioning from content writing to copywriting, but I keep running up against the wall of case studies: I just don’t have access to client data. My clients are happy and give me repeat work, but “We love this, please do it again” is a testimonial, not a case study. A couple of times I’ve requested view-only access to their analytics so I could research more effective approaches, but they always refuse. Any tips, tricks, or work-arounds would be appreciated.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m a copywriter, and my creative team is constantly running into needing more info than we’re being given. It sounds like these are external clients? If so, it might help to lay out expectations up front – if what you truly want is a case study, then I need x, y and z from you; based on what you’ve given me in the past, I can only do ____.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        Isn’t that what ChatGPT is for?

        Low-effort, embarrassingly-incompetent sample output? Introduce a few inaccuracies to make sure your clients can’t mistake it for the real thing if they have low standards, or use it for the real thing if they realize ChatGPT isn’t that bad, or maybe just tell ChatGPT to be awful. Show them this as an example of what a creative team could end up with if it doesn’t get more information.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Wait. I think I misunderstood what you’re asking about – you are looking for info to improve your work, not to produce it. Got it. (I write case studies as part of my job, so I was thinking about it that way.)

        I think testimonials are helpful, no? But if you or your clients can produce any kind of metrics on how your pieces performed, that’s helpful, even if you can’t turn into a full blown case study.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Why do you need case studies – in order to land additional clients, or just to get better at your work? If your clients are in the same general line of business, and they think you’d be deliberately or inadvertently spilling their secrets, I totally get their reluctance.

      If it’s just for getting better, start with that. “I want to make sure I’m delivering the best work I can to you. Can we do a quick review of my last 10 pieces, and you tell me which ones were the best, and why? Then I can apply those lessons learned this quarter.” As opposed to “What were the click-through rates for the July teapot promotion?”

    3. SayHey*

      Case studies/samples are needed (I work in the industry): I want to know you can write marketing content for web, social media (and maybe even print ads), and that know how to write to your specific audience’s needs in a very concise way that is action oriented. I have found that those who are currently/formally a science/SME writer, do NOT understand the difference. Get some freelance projects if you can to help w the transition. Good luck!

  7. Rara Avis*

    If it’s the biting kind, I believe it’s designed to grasp the front of the staple and pull it out.

  8. Bookworm*

    I was reading the book “The Unavoidable” about people who survived disasters and the surrounding psychology. This book was mentioned here a while back. There was at least one woman who survived both the 1993 and 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center. Do you know anyone who refuses to work in a skyscraper due to 9/11 or otherwise is very particular about their work environment (when they don’t work with dangerous chemicals, etc) safety?

    1. my cat is prettier than me*

      I don’t refuse to, but I worked on the 38th floor of a building for awhile and was always a little paranoid about it. I’m more concerned about active shooter situations now as I sit at the front desk on the first floor of a building.

    2. Harlowe*

      Not a major incident, but somewhat adjacent: after substitute teaching, I will never again wear business shoes that I cannot run in. There were too many times I had to sprint down the hallway to break up fights, respond to a medical incident, etc. Cute heels and sandals are no longer a part of my professional wardrobe.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I work downtown in a big city, and it freaks me out when I see people wearing what are essentially slippers or floppy shoes there. It’s all concrete, and their feet are getting no support. If anything happened and they had to run, they’d be screwed.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      I’m surprised if there was only one person that experienced both attacks–it’s not that crazy the same person would work in the same office across 8 years.

    6. Elle Woods*

      I had a co-worker who would only stay on the first or second floor of a hotel near a stairway. She lost a family member in the MGM Hotel Fire.

    7. M2RB*

      I am that person. I am an accountant so a trip & fall or papercut are my most likely workplace injuries. I work on the second floor of my office building, and my commute is about 13 miles one way. I worry more about a workplace shooting than anything else.

      I make sure my work shoes are comfortable enough to walk at least a mile in. I make sure that I know where all emergency exits are at all times. I don’t particularly like where my cube is and where my department sits in the building because we have only one exit route out of the area. I have been tempted to keep one of the multitools intended to break car windows & cut seatbelts in case I need to go out the window in my cube (it’s a single window, not one that can be opened).

      I am fully aware that I am paranoid about this stuff but thinking about it in advance and having a plan makes me feel better.

      1. Bookworm*

        I think about some of that stuff, too. I was at a smaller church for a wedding recently. Aside from the back doors into the lobby, the only emergency exit (it opened directly to the exterior) was at the front of the seating area, on one side. One family let their toddlers spread out and play in the open spot right in front of that emergency exit. My first thought on seeing that was that those kids would be trampled if people needed to get out quickly.

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        Sometime in the early 2000’s I started making sure I knew where all the escape routes were in my workplaces, and made it a point to walk all the unlocked spaces, to see if I could find random hiding spots in case the exits were blocked and there was a shooter.

        One place had a nap / pumping room that had a hidden space behind a half wall. If you’d never walked every inch of that room, you’d have no idea it was there. I told a co-worker who took a short nap in the room every afternoon about it and she was shocked. She’d been in there hundreds of times and never once noticed the space.

        Another had a load-bearing cement column that was hidden by a wall and another column. You had to squeeze your way in behind it but, once there, no one would ever find you.

        At my last office job (I work from home now), there was a big conference room down the hallway from my cube. one wall was lined with hip-high cabinets that weren’t visible from the door. You had to come all the way into the room and turn right to see them. My plan was to hide inside the cabinets.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I’m small enough to hide under the desk and it’s in a shadow corner so it wouldn’t be apparent anybody was there.

      3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’m the admin for a counseling center at a university. I also sometimes think about school shooters and what I could or couldnt do. Only way to lock the front door is from the outside.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Talk to facilities. A bolt would probably be really easy to install and pretty cheap to boot. It’s extra security that would give you more peace of mind.

          I must admit to being way more comfortable at home with a door that locks such that I can still open it easily from the inside but locks from the outside. I do actually lock it from the inside as well but I keep a spare key on a nearby hook so I can get out in an emergency.

      4. goddessoftransitory*

        I always, always pay attention to the safety demo when flying, and note the plane exits. Once a flight attendant actually passed me a note thanking me for doing so!

        During an emergency is not the optimal time to try to figure out what to do in an emergency.

        1. anonprofit*

          I’m a bit obsessed with plane crashes–I find those kinds of things fascinating. (I was a Titanic kid instead of a dinosaur kid.) So many times people die because they’re not aware of what to do in an emergency! So now I always pay attention to the briefing.

          1. GythaOgden*

            I often watch those videos to get a sense of how heroic some people are. American pilots impress me the most — of all the survivable accidents, it seems to me that the common denominator was a pilot who kept his cool and did what they had to under extremely challenging circumstances. Sully was only the tip of the iceberg, but you look at some crashes (particularly the 2008 BA crash that managed to miss both the petrol stations at Hounslow and the motorway where the Prime Minister’s motorcade was passing and, given that they weren’t going to make it to the runway because they were out of fuel, put it down on the safest piece of grass they could find) and think how did everyone survive?! and the answer is usually that the pilot maintained control to the bitter end.

            I’m still not the world’s calmest flier, but I’ve found that if I’m distracted during take-off and landing (best way to do this is set a random alarm on my phone and scramble to turn it off; additionally, last time I flew I helped a much more nervous flier sat next to me get through the perilous bits and that helped my own nervousness), I can get through anything. I’m going a bit off the beaten track next spring — to the Caucasus, specifically Yerevan which is within spitting distance of /Iran/ — but with a western carrier you do have a much better chance of coming out alive.

        2. Reluctant Mezzo*

          I had to sit behind someone large and strong who was placed by the emergency exit. He *really* had to sleep, so I promised him that I would definitely wake him up if necessary (if I could wake my teen son, I can wake *anybody*).

    8. RLC*

      The 1995 Oklahoma City terror attack changed my view of working in a large federal building. Previously never gave it a second thought, after that I much preferred small (less than 10 employees) offices in tiny standalone buildings.

    9. Justin*

      My last job was literally located in the WTC (not the freedom tower but one of the others with 80+ floors) and there were people who refused to attend trainings we ran because it was in that building.

      I am a lifelong New Yorker who was very much in high school that day so to me being there is a source of pride and not fear (and there’s not a lot of hijacking these days). But I get it.

      1. Bookworm*

        I have a lot of friends in the Chicago area. In early 2002, a friend was offered a job in an office in the Sears Tower. She was also pregnant at the time. She turned the job down specifically because it was on a higher floor.

    10. Collette*

      At the time of the Virginia Tech shooting, I was adjunct faculty at a university with a very similar student demographic. Every time I walked into a classroom after that, I refined my escape/survival plan, based on how many doors and windows there were to the room, including how to get as many students to safety as possible. We did not get any training on that, so it was all up to me.

      I also wondered, every time a student failed my class, if I’d just made the “kill this person first” list. It didn’t stop me from recording those grades, they’d earned them by not doing the work, but it was definitely on my mind, pretty much all the time.

      Even though I’m not in academia any longer, I still scan every place I am for the likeliest escape and coverage routes.

      1. Purple Cabbage*

        Another academic here. Every semester, I fail a student or two for blatant, easily provable plagiarism. They typically melt down and say I’m ruining their lives – instead of taking any responsibility for the consequences of their own choices.

        Every time, I wonder if I’m putting a target on my back by requiring and enforcing academic integrity. I’m not sure what I could do differently in terms of my own safety though. I’m not quitting my job just because cheaters get mad when they’re caught.

      2. Bike Walk Barb*

        I worked in higher ed communications when that happened. We ran desktop drills for that happening on our campus and repeated them at other times. I’m realizing those were all the exec team, not faculty. I’m pretty sure we shared information on what to do but I don’t think we involved them in actual practice.

    11. The Rural Juror*

      We just moved from a 5th floor office suite to the 18th of another building. Fire drills at the old office were tiring, but totally doable for most folks (we have a few folks with mobility impairment but they’re on the opposite side of the office from me and I’m not sure how they handled it). I’m really dreading any fire drills now from the 18th floor.
      I get a little nervous about emergency situations in our tallish building. This is a good reminder to ask our office manager about the safety plan!

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        The tallest building I worked in was the 10th floor, and we had fire evacuation drills regularly. The bigger fear to me was that the building was adjacent to LAX, and we recognized that it would be a target of attack from overseas. Since the building had no exterior windows, we wouldn’t know what hit us.
        The scariest drill for me was when I was in an interior stairwell of a 2-story building, and ALL the lights went out (this was pre-Mobile phones, so I had no flashlight). I had to decide whether to go down the stairs to where I knew there was a solid door (to proceed across the building to exit), or up the stairs to where the door had a window (and proceed to an actual emergency stairwell which led to outside). I chose to go up, to see out before opening the door. I reported to everyone that I could think of, that the emergency lights were non-functional in that stairwell. It got included on the incident report.

      2. GythaOgden*

        I’m a trained fire warden at work. It really, really helps overcoming pyrophobia if you know what to do when.

    12. Bike Walk Barb*

      I work from home, as does my whole team. We’re in a public agency that’s very particular about safety; it’s part of our mission. All in-person meetings start with a safety briefing that includes identifying who would call 9-1-1, administer CPR, go for the AED, meet the first responder crew, and take charge as room captain to make sure everyone exits. We identify where we’ll muster if we do exit. The address of the building is written on the whiteboard because a visitor wouldn’t necessarily know that.

      We do a yearly “Great Shakeout” drill (Pacific NW, Ring of Fire, The Big One will hit someday). When we had a staff meeting one year on the day of the drill I asked people to think through how they would handle their safety at home if we had an earthquake. Probably time to put telework safety practices on the agenda again.

      When I travel on business, I’m the person who does actually look around on the plane and identify my nearest exits. Sometimes they’re behind me, as they say. I keep my seatbelt buckled when I’m seated.

      At my hotel I take the stairs from my room all the way down and out the fire exit, assuming it’s not one that will sound an alarm if I open the door. This way I know which way to turn from my room in the dark and where I’ll end up outside the building. I also know the door opens if I’m able to test that! One time at a hotel in DC we had a fire alarm at about 3am on an extremely frigid night. Good thing there wasn’t an actual fire; two women ended up in a stairwell confronted with a locked door. I picked this habit up from a family member who used to work for the State Department and stayed in a lot of hotels that weren’t built to US fire codes. He always checked the exits.

    13. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m another person who can’t do impractical clothing, especially shoes. If I can’t fight or flee because I’ve handicapped myself in the name of fashion, then I’m not safe, and it makes my soul itch.

      I’ve worked with someone with PTSD who couldn’t handle the standard desk layout (a row of cubbies facing the wall, with a walkway behind them). She got a medical accommodation, and the desk at the far end of the row, turned 90 degrees such that her back was against the wall and nobody could sneak up behind her.

      I’m also reminded of a sixth-grade teacher. There was a fire drill, and after the all-clear signal was given and we were headed back in, I was a party to some very minor kid shenanigans. She absolutely lost it, both at us and at the somewhat bewildered principal she’d hauled us in front of. Turned out that her previous school had burned to the ground, with loss of life that might have been caused by assuming the alarm wasn’t real until it was too late, and she had some lingering feelings about people not taking fire drills seriously enough.

      1. anonprofit*

        A few jobs ago I had a desk with my back to the room and I hated it! Luckily it wasn’t too hard to get permission to move it the other way, since I had confidential files on my screen.

    14. fhqwhgads*

      Not specifically skyscrapers or the environment, but I know someone who worked at Morgan-Stanley, was not in the building on 9/11 but basically just can’t go back there.

  9. BellaStella*

    I just have a positive shout out to effective HR. Finally we have new HR members who are actually listening to staff and addressing stuff head on with a narcissistic lead and looping in senior leadership and keeping staff updated. After nearly two years of lead gaslighting and bullying and lying and pushing down people on the staff, we are working with high quality HR who are handling stuff. The light at the end of the tunnel is small still but is not a train and there is much more hope from staff.

    1. Venus*

      I’ll add my WWAS (What would Alison/AAM suggest?) moment:
      There is a management position opening up, and I expressed some concerns to the hiring manager about a couple potential candidates lacking interpersonal skills. After the interviews he told me that my comments prompted him to ask some questions specifically on the topic and he felt much happier with his decision as a result. The choice is someone who lacks some skills yet has always been very open to feedback, so I get the impression that those questions helped the two of them have a conversation during the interview about his comfort level with managing and how hiring manager could help mentor and improve these skills.

      Initially I had really debated saying anything because I didn’t want to seem critical or gossipy, yet I’ve known the hiring manager for years so he understood my intent and it ended up as a really positive experience (and most importantly, it will have positive effects for years in future).

        1. Venus*

          I really hope your situation improves sooner than later, but either way it sounds like you’re doing much better!

  10. Elsewise*

    Remote workers- how do you feel about or what is the etiquette for non-managers scheduling in-person meetings?

    I’m hybrid but in practice mostly remote. I live 45 minutes to an hour away from our primary office, and about 20 minutes away from our secondary office. Our team had a meeting in-person scheduled at the primary office on a specific date, and in a team meeting a coworker suggested another in-person planning session. This session doesn’t need to be in-person, but since we were already going to be there, we all agreed to schedule it on the same day. Well, turns out that day doesn’t work for another team that we were considering inviting, so this team member scheduled us for another in-person session on a different day. It’s a week when I already have agreed to three other in-person commitments on different days, and I really don’t want to add a fourth.

    I want to decline, but I’m worried about being perceived as not a team player for not agreeing to go in person. The organizer is senior to me, but not in management, and has a history of unilaterally scheduling in-person meetings that could have been an email. All of them are at our primary location, which is convenient to everyone but me. For team culture context, our department has recently seen some pushback to our director scheduling super long in-person meetings, and the director just this week sent out an email politely telling people to get over it, so I’m concerned that it will reflect poorly on me if I push back on this request.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Try pushing back cheerfully and see what their reaction is, test the waters. “Hi Etty, I’m not onsite that day, can we add a zoom link to the meeting as well? Or if you want to be inperson I’m onsite that week on dates. Thanks!”

      1. JMR*

        Yeah, this! There’s a very good chance the person scheduling the meeting doesn’t realize you’re not on-site that day. Give them the option of meeting virtually or rescheduling for a day if they want to meet in-person!

        1. Ama*

          Yes, when I started being more firm about meeting times after being run ragged by coworkers who scheduled meetings both before and after my regular work day (and often through lunch), I realized quickly that people just don’t pay attention to other people’s schedules – they were just looking for open space on my calendar, they didn’t stop to notice that I had blocks before and after that time so they were booking me from three hours straight over lunch or know that I work 9:30 to 5:30 normally. And usually just a polite “hey is there anyway we can change this 9 am start, I don’t get in until 9:30” is usually fine.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      You should be able to push back. It’s one thing to ditch a meeting that your director sets up in person. It’s another to ditch a meeting this guy sets up.

    3. Beth**

      Can you have hybrid meetings? 95% of my meetings these days are hybrid. If you have the tech for it, it’s very straightforward to have some people in the room and others on screen.

      1. Mireya*

        If a meeting involves a presentation, there needs to be a second, dedicated person monitoring the chat. I’ve been in hybrid presentations where that wasn’t the case, and the presenter wasn’t aware the remote attendees couldn’t hear or see certain things.

    4. M2*

      See if they can do it another day you are on site first. The other option is to ask to be on Zoom or Teams but only for that one meeting not all of them. See what they say.

      Honestly it’s up to you but many RTO has been because people are refusing to go into the office for meetings, etc. I think only you know how your organization works. If this starts to annoy people will they now tell you you’re officially hybrid? Will they start RTO?

      Personally, I would first ask to do it on a day I’m already there and I wouldn’t push back necessarily because I have seen more and more places RTO but I also don’t live far.

      What is worse going into the office one more day or having the Director wonder if now everyone needs to be in the office 2/3 days a week.

      Ask me how I know…

      1. Mireya*

        Agree on the RTO. A big chunk of hybrid work issues would solve themselves, if people would just go into the office to do their own in-person tasks whenever they come up.

    5. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      I have coworkers and adjacent department heads who like to schedule meetings. Most are unnecessary or piled on top of other meetings when I need some time to refresh. I say go ahead and push back. If you already have a lot of commitments, that’s a perfectly valid reason.

    6. TheBunny*

      I’d just suck it up and go. It’s thing like this that cause upper management to think “if we were all just in office this wouldn’t be an issue”.

      Yes it’s annoying. But it’s less annoying that being told you are now fully in office because people are tired of trying to plan meetings around in office days.

      1. Lucy*

        Agree. Especially since management just sent out an email shutting down a complaint about an in-person meeting.

        It might be worth trying some of the suggestions to push back later, but just go to the meeting for now.

        (Also, coincidentally, my cat’s nickname is Bunny.)

  11. Freedom*

    Y’all, today is my last day at my job and my boss is being so weird. He got in this morning and immediately starts giving projects to do as if he doesn’t know I’m leaving? And then when I told him that I could not get all of them done today, he acts like they were just minor things that need to be wrapped up? Sorry, but I’m not able to do a major website overhaul by 4 today.

    Still, I’ve just got to laugh and let it roll off me, because what else can I do? Today will be my last day no matter what he demands, and if stuff doesn’t get done because he didn’t tell me about it until my last day, then I guess he’ll just have to figure it out for himself.

    3. No thumbs up at the ANC!!*

      Congrats. On my last day my boss was no where to be found. And the CEO was surprised when I walked into the main building vs working at the ancillary location (where my desk was). He said, ‘Oh awesome, I’d love to talk to you later today!’ and he never did.

      So you’re doing better with people actually talking to you.

    4. Mireya*

      Do whatever you can, and then leave.

      At a previous job, I planned to and spent my last day documenting a large process I’d been doing long-term temporary with no end in sight.

      A boss who’d acted like I wasn’t leaving, dumped a PDF project on me that required a compromise. Reducing the file size wasn’t really an option, because it would affect readability of the document. But my boss objected to splitting the PDF into two or more parts.

      I told him to deal with it himself, and went back to documenting the process. If I were that kind of person, it would’ve served them right had I not documented the process.

    5. UpstateDownstate*

      Congrats on your last day!

      Nope, you cannot do a major project by 4pm! Focus on saying farewell to the employees you care about and sending out a ‘farewell’ email at 3:59pm.

      :)

    6. Synaptically Unique*

      Same exact thing just happened to my new employee. I don’t understand the mentality at all. He just did what he could do, then signed off at the end of the day.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I think in most cases it’s just a lack of organization. They didn’t make a transition plan or a list of things only the departing employee knows how to do, and so on the last day when it’s finally feeling real they go “oh shit there are 5 things I was thinking could get done next week but they can’t because only Jane can do them.”

        Like, I’m sure there’s the occasional weird attempt at a power play, but my money’s on incompetence for 90% of cases.

    7. Fly on the Wall*

      I worked at a company for 12 years, at the end as a project manager. On my last day my main customer was in town so we could wrap everything up. A couple hours into the day our GM came and grabbed him for a “quick meeting”. That quick meeting? They left and went golfing. Needless to say I logged off, said my goodbyes and left.

    8. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      Your boss really believes you are obligated to complete any project he gives you before the deadline. Like walking into a restaurant 5 mins before closing and ordering a four course meal. LOL.

  12. Jessen*

    So, when you’re looking at breaking into a new field, what sort of things do you look at for getting credentials and experience? Nowadays there’s always so many people offering certifications in everything and a lot of them I know are probably not worth the paper they’re printed on. For that matter how do you even figure out more specifically what jobs are out there that use the skills you have?

    Like many of us millennials I grew up on “do what you love, get a degree and you’ll be fine!” It turns out what I love is getting paid decently and not having to think about my job too much outside of work hours. I’m in entry-level IT support right now and looking to transfer to a more technical writing and customer support based field. But honestly I’m overwhelmed by figuring out what sort of credentials and experience I’d need, what different fields/subfields there are that I should look into, and basically just planning for this. I’m not sure where to start! This is the only professional job I’ve had and frankly I got it because I’m related to someone.

    I know this is a super broad question but I feel like there’s so little solid advice for people looking to pick a career or change careers that’s not drowned out by advertising. I know what I’m good at (I’m ok at actual IT technical stuff, I’m good at writing quickly, and I’m very good at working with people who are frustrated and don’t understand what’s going on), but I’m not sure how to match that to jobs and figure out how to demonstrate those skills to employers.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have personal experience changing fields/breaking into a new field, but these posts might be a good place to start:

      “let’s talk about mid-life career changes” from May 28, 2020

      “what fields have hiring booms right now?” from August 11, 2022

      I wouldn’t expect the fields in the “hiring booms” post to still be in hiring booms, but some posters put qualifications/certifications to have in their posts (sometimes in the top-level post, sometimes in replies to the top-level post) and it could be helpful to get an idea of what helps/doesn’t help when breaking into a new field.

      2. Anax*

        IT is a little bit tight right now; there were some big layoffs in 2022-2023 after pandemic-era over-hiring. Right now, return-to-office is doing strange things to the market – a lot of companies seem to have a ‘wait and see’ approach, willing to accept some short-to-medium-term vacancies in hopes that prospective employees will relent and accept fully- or mostly-on-site positions once they realize that RTO isn’t going away.

        Not sure how long that will take to shake out, perhaps a year or two, but it’s definitely not a hiring boom right now.

    2. WhaleINever*

      This may be a little specific to my field, but one thing I would consider is checking job listings, LinkedIn, and company websites to see what certifications companies are requesting, and what certifications people are getting hired with, because that can give you very different results than advice aimed at people trying to break into a career.

      I initially was planning on going into archives; I chose to get a Masters in History/Public History rather than a Masters of Library Science, because all of my professors and a lot of advice blogs informed me the field was 50-50. Well, maybe a few decades ago it was, but now it’s more like 75-25 MLIS, if not greater. I thought, okay, let me try to get my certification to see if that will help, as some industry professionals told me it would—nope! After enough listings and LinkedIn stalking, it became very clear that for most jobs, the MLIS was a requirement and the certification was a bonus, but not enough on its own… and a lot of recent grads were in a similar boat.

      Thankfully I got just enough experience to decide that archives wasn’t for me after all, and pivoted to a related field I enjoy much better, but it definitely made me wary about certifications. I had ample reason to think I could talk my way into the field by saying “well technically I don’t have A, but I do have B, C, and D”—but knowing the relative value of A, B, C, and D really was essential.

      1. pally*

        This is good advice for other fields too!
        Also, might seek out professional organizations pertaining to the industry you wish to work in. They may offer certifications that do pertain to the field. As WhaleINever wrote, check the job ads to get a feel for the frequency employers are asking for the certifications offered by the professional organization.

      2. Jessen*

        Thanks! One of the things I am trying to navigate around is that a lot of jobs seem to want a bachelor’s in either english or some IT related field. I have a bachelor’s in philosophy and most of an associate’s degree in cybersecurity. I’d rather not have to go back for a second bachelor’s if I can help it – I’m not completely opposed but most schools want a minimum of 90 credits at their institution and I can only do a max of 15 credits in a year effectively. My current work is at a community college that does not offer 4-year degrees, so that would put me several years back if I need to complete 90 credits at a different institution.

        Which puts me in a bit of a weird position, because I am qualified and want to be able to demonstrate that I’m qualified, but I’m not in a good position to get that specific credential despite having completed basically all the coursework I’d need to get that credential. So I’m trying to figure out alternate ways to demonstrate that yes, I am qualified to do this job.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          One of the things I am trying to navigate around is that a lot of jobs seem to want a bachelor’s in either english or some IT related field.

          Apply for those jobs! Philosophy is a reading/writing/thinking focused degree, so I think most hiring managers should be able to understand it covers a lot of the same skills as a degree in English. And on the IT side, associate degree in cybersecurity + IT experience (+ being able to check “yes” on the 4-year degree box) will probably be an acceptable equivalent to “IT-related 4-year degree.” I think it’s worth sending out some applications to see what happens.

        2. kalli*

          If you’ve done the coursework and your community college gives you a transcript, look into Recognised Prior Learning – some institutions will let you test out or otherwise sign off on credits if you’ve done the coursework or have equivalent work experience. It’s done on a case-by-case basis so you’d have to contact the faculty or prospective students team at an institution that offers the bachelors people are looking for, and see what they say after a look at your transcript and a bit of a chat.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is 100% good advice. And what I tell students in archives programs who contact me about the field is always that this has shifted. (And I feel bad saying it to people who are in History MAs with an Archives specialization.)

    3. SansaStark*

      I can’t offer you any advice about picking a career unfortunately, but I can offer a little bit of practical advice about certificates and certifications since that’s my industry.

      Certificates are good for life. Usually you’ll take a class, do modules, etc. and then the good ones have an assessment that you need to pass, then you have this certificate forever.

      Certifications are only good for X amount of years and then you have to recertify – usually by passing a test or some other professional development activities. If you’re looking for a certification that’s actually worth something, you want to look for ones that require recertification (they’ll usually tell you about the requirements in a Candidate’s Guide) and that don’t try to sell you the preparation materials for the exam. If they’re trying to sell you the only one resource you’ll need to pass the test, they’re not in line with industry best practices.

      Good luck – finding a career that you like can be tough. It might be helpful to try a couple of different jobs to see what you like doing. My career path is anything but linear and I can confidently explain how Job A led to Job D based on my skills and interests.

    4. Grey cat*

      I’ll address two things you brought up—how to find a different career when you aren’t sure what you want, and how you break into a career once you figure that out.

      Finding a new career is a time for you to trust your instincts and go by feel. I found a new career by attending every event attached to a field of work that sounded remotely interesting. If you don’t live in a city, you might be able to simulate this with virtual events. If you can’t find an event, you have to contact people and ask to chat with them.

      I’m an introvert; this was not easy, but I can’t stress enough that talking to people was so much more clarifying than books or articles on the internet. I talked to event planners, a matchmaker, bakery owners, copywriters, project managers…it ran the spectrum. You ask what they like about their job, what they don’t like about their job, about their day-to-day, etc. This should at least give you a sense if you want to keep pursuing this direction or not. There’s a lot of self-reflection as you decide what’s important to you and what tradeoffs you’re willing to consider.

      As for the transition itself, you talk to more people. Once you’ve identified the job you want, you cold-email folks asking if they’re willing to chat, and you ask them how they recommend transitioning to their field and what certifications, if any, they’d recommend. Lots of people were really nice and generously gave me some of their time or connected me with others.

      I’m sure it varies by field, but in my experience, doing some actual work will virtually always be superior to certificates or degrees. I did pro-bono work that I put on my resume. You don’t have to disclose it was pro-bono, and if you have work samples of some kind or can talk about the stellar work you did, that’s what really matters. Yes, there were tons of people who didn’t want to interview me because I didn’t have extensive experience in my new field, so you have to be patient, keep networking, and make sure you’re presenting yourself in the most positive light in your resume and interviews.

      I transitioned to a completely unrelated field even with a five-year gap in my resume. End-to-end my career transition took me about two years, I think? You can totally do it; the length of time depends on luck and how drastic the career switch is.

      1. Jessen*

        Thanks! I’m hoping IT support to technical writing will be a bit shorter. Most likely I’d be looking at fields where I’d be writing documentation for computer work, although I’d also be open to more hands-on support work. I’ve learned by now that I’m absolutely ok with boring or repetitive work, but having a job that doesn’t follow me home too often is very important.

        I have been looking at either pro bono work or gig sites like fivver or upwork, plus doing some “fake” documentation for scifi technologies. I’m fortunately in a place where I have a stable job that does pay the bills, but my rent is going up faster than my paycheck is right now and I think I could get more if I can present myself as a more specialized candidate.

    5. Anax*

      I’m in IT, and some thoughts.

      Don’t bother with credentials unless you can’t get on-the-job experience. On-the-job is VASTLY more important in IT, outside some very specific subspecialties. (Network security, for instance.)

      What I would actually recommend is going to your manager or someone else at work, and saying “hey, I really want to build my skills in [x] – could I do something like [y] for a few hours per week, as my other duties permit?”

      Ideally, this is going to involve you spotting an actual issue at work and asking to do that specifically. Say, “Hey, I’ve noticed that our team doesn’t have a written guide on debugging VPN issues; could I write something up and run it by you? I think that might be really useful for onboarding.”

      Slightly less ideally, it’s going to involve you going to your boss (or grandboss, or someone else with the authority to tell you what to do who seems friendly), and asking if THEY’VE seen any issues that you could work on. “Hey, I’d really like to build my technical writing skills; do you see any big gaps in our documentation that I could help with, as time allows?”

      Most reasonable managers will be ok with you spending say, 2-5 hours per week on skill-building or other duties. Especially something like documentation, which is always behind and often unpopular to work on. If there’s something you want to learn, literally just ask, preferably with a specific, actionable idea.

      (This is why I’m suggesting couching it as a clear ‘in addition to your normal duties’, taking up only a small portion of your time – that’s a much easier sell for most managers than an undefined “actually, instead of my job, can I go do something else?”. This approach also requires that you’re doing well at your ordinary work, for what that’s worth – a reputation for competence is probably your biggest asset in IT, at least WITHIN a company.)

      As far as subspecialties –
      – You might enjoy becoming higher-level tech support. This is often referred to as T2 or T3 tech support – the people who get calls escalated to them, rather than the entry-level folks who get all incoming calls. (Often, they also write the documentation that T1 folks use.)

      Working in tech support and getting a reputation for competence and handling the difficult calls is going to be useful here.

      A minor caveat: It’s very common for large companies to outsource T1 (entry-level) to other countries, but usually NOT T2 or T3 – so sticking around your current company until you get a promotion or a couple of years of experience might help you bridge that gap.

      – You might enjoy being an analyst. “Business process analyst” or “business systems analyst” are likely titles here, but you may need to dig into different “analyst” positions to find the appropriate ones. The job I’m talking about involves being the liaison between IT and stakeholders – the person who gathers business requirements, runs status meetings, and translates stakeholder requests into IT language.

      There’s a lot of writing here – this is the person who takes “I want the website to look more modern”, talks to the stakeholders until they get specific (“I don’t like the navigation bar, the graphics look dated, and there are broken links on the ‘about’ page”), writes down those specifics clearly enough that the stakeholder can agree that you’ve gotten their request right or make any needed changes, and turns them into actionable requests for IT (“revamp navigation bar with blue/black color scheme and mobile-friendly CSS, for a demo to stakeholders in two weeks”).

      As you might guess, there’s also a lot of translating between technical and nontechnical language, managing expectations, and dealing with potentially frustrated stakeholders.

      – You might enjoy project management. There’s a lot of overlap with the analyst work I described above – but the project manager focuses a lot more on making sure tasks are on-time and on-budget, which means keeping your finger on the pulse of team members’ workloads. If you like juggling ten different priorities, rather than focusing on one thing all day, PM work might be for you.

      All of these are basically jobs you can train for on-the-job. If you do some of these tasks in your current position – say, translating requests, answering the hard questions, doing documentation – then you’ll be fully qualified to jump into any of these positions. Just finetune your resume to highlight those tasks, look for a gig which isn’t expecting too much experience (say, 1-3 years, “associate” level positions, or just the plain title without something like “senior” in front), and explain that you want to make a lateral move because you’ve found that these tasks are where your passion really lies. You might be able to make this move from within, too, depending on how your organization works – and that might be easier, because a reputation for competence is going to really bolster your chances.

      (Hiring in IT is a huge headache, because LOTS of people lie on their resumes. “Are you a reasonable person who can do what you claimed you could do” matters vastly more than your degree, your past experience, or your credentials. That’s why reputation matters so much – and while it’s not super transferrable between organizations, it’s VERY transferrable within an organization.)

      There are probably some other subspecialties that would work! An actual “technical writer” gig seems to be somewhat uncommon these days outside particularly technical IT (like, engineering or industrial programs), but I think there’s a lot that would work for you. These, however, are the ones I’ve personally done, and I’ve actually made the lateral move from phoneline support to software development, and from software development to analyst/PM work.

      I think “analyst” is likely to be a good general keyword for you to keep an eye on, if you’re more interested in writing and talking than the actual technical stuff. (I am, too – that’s why I switched specialties.)

      Hope that’s useful; good luck!

      1. Jessen*

        So my current company doesn’t really do a lot of promotions and we’re not set up to take on extra work at the job. It’s government contract work and set up in a way where basically I can do my job description and only my job description and I do not have access or permissions to do anything else. I can do internal SOPs and documentation because that’s part of my job area, but basically anything else I am actively not allowed to do because I don’t have permissions. We’d have to bill it under a different billing code if I did and I’m not in a position that’s authorized to use that billing code.

        I also don’t think I’ve ever seen much in the way of promotions happening, unless you apply for the job as an external candidate (and even then it’s likely in a different department that has basically no contact with my manager or department). I have never even met our tier 2 or 3 support people. Don’t get me wrong, I like the job, but it’s definitely built in a way where people tend to get a job and then keep that job at their level for the next decade or three. But it does make it harder to figure out other skills and lean into reputation when each team is really kind of siloed away from the others.

        1. Anax*

          Yuck! Ok, that definitely changes the picture.

          I would still do internal SOPs and documentation – that’s good, resume-worthy experience, and you should highlight it if you want to do similar work going forward.

          I think that 2-3 years of experience is still going to be beneficial in helping you find your next job, just so you’re not 100% fresh out of college – IT is notoriously tough to find entry-level gigs in.

          But honestly, I would just start applying for analyst gigs, if that sounds interesting to you. That’s probably the easiest subspecialty to break into without formal experience, and the experience you do have should be fairly transferrable. Unfortunately, this might take a lot of applications, since you’re making a lateral move in a somewhat tight market. You might get lucky, but I would expect this to be a longer haul, so expect that, apply sustainably, and try to include solid cover letters to connect your existing experience to the job.

          I don’t think credentials will do you much good, but when you get to the interview stage, knowing the *language* used in IT may well help – so it might help to find a free online course or two on agile, project management, and business process analysis. You can leapfrog from there into other interests if you find something you particularly like.

          Coursera is pretty good for free classes, Humble Bundle has inexpensive book bundles sometimes, and Udemy has decent courses on a deep sale pretty often (but check the preview to make sure the instructor’s voice and style will work for you). Five years ago, I would have told you to haunt /r/talesfromtechsupport and similar subs, but unfortunately, Reddit is pretty dead these days. There might be some good Discords around for discussing industry scuttlebutt, or more “old-school” local professional organizations.

          If you’re in the US and anywhere near your state capitol, state public-sector jobs might be a good option – state agencies are often large enough to need a lot of analysts, and if this election season goes blue, they’re likely to be hiring a lot in preparation for infrastructure-related initiatives. (Public sector can also be less focused on credentials/degree specifics than private sector, sometimes; there are LOTS of IT folks in public-sector with Philosophy degrees.)

          Gut feeling, other infrastructure-related companies/organizations might also be a good bet, like your local utility company. I also saw quite a bit of university/higher-education hiring when I was job-hunting this spring/summer, but that might be regional.

          I would *not* personally recommend the really sexy-sounding tech companies like Twitter, Apple, etc. A lot of them have a corporate culture which does not value work-life balance, and a lot of them have been doing substantial layoffs in the last couple of years as they adjust to the changing market. Startups are also an area I would tend to avoid right now, since the market’s a little tight.

          “Boring” industries like banking, insurance, etc., are usually hiring, but their IT is likely to be using very old and janky technology; your tolerance for “this essential system is somehow still running Windows 2000” may vary.

          1. Jessen*

            I mean, I already work in federal government. There was a significant amount of panic when microsoft stopped supporting internet explorer because we had some critical software that only worked properly when run in internet explorer. Not microsoft edge, internet explorer. I’m used to janky nonsense that can’t be changed for Reasons. I think one of my job skills is explaining to internal clients “yes what you’ve suggested would make perfect sense but when this was set up last decade no one thought of that so it’s not possible.”

            The good aspect of my job is that it’s stable and I’m paid decently enough, so I don’t need to be in a rush to find something else.

    6. bee*

      I’m a millennial too and ran into the same kinds of careers issues you describe. I’m not in IT, but I can tell you a bit about my experience changing careers at age 30.

      I got a liberal arts based degree and then struggled to find a job that paid enough to live on, especially in the expensive city where I grew up. I realized I cared more about being able to support myself and have a good quality of life than “doing what I love”. In my mid-late 20s I worked at a nonprofit that was fairly under-resourced and didn’t pay well; the one positive about that was they were open to their staff working in different areas and trying new things. I ended up getting pretty broad experience in a variety of areas including operations and finance which was helpful in terms of learning what my strengths were, as well as what types of jobs were out there. So, my first recommendation would be to see if there are any new responsibilities you could take on at your current job. Since they already know you, it may be easier to take on work that’s not directly related to your background.

      After getting some exposure to different kinds of work, I realized accounting/finance was actually an area that played in to my strengths and where I could see a more stable future. I knew it would be difficult to move into related jobs without more relevant experience, so I decided to go to grad school. I found a Masters in Accounting program that was geared towards people with unrelated undergraduate degrees, and as a bonus, it was at one of my state’s public universities so the tuition was more affordable. I enrolled and finished the degree in about 2 years.

      Accounting firms do a lot of recruiting directly out of universities, so I was lucky enough to find a full-time job soon after I graduated. That job paid decently but also gave me the work experience needed for the CPA license and paid for all of it (exam fees, review program, license fees etc.) which was a big part of the reason I accepted the position I did. I got licensed about a year after working there which was honestly the best thing I could have done for myself career-wise. I’m now at my second job since graduating, have a salary I’m happy with, and have great work/life balance.

      I know grad school can be hit or miss in terms of increasing job prospects, but I think if you go in with a specific goal and choose a program that has decent on-campus recruiting, that can make a big difference for you. I’ll also say, I think certifications/licenses can make a big difference depending on the field. In my last job search, employers were more focused on my CPA license than anything else, including my masters degree. I would take a look at job listings for positions you’re interested in and see if there are specific degrees or certifications they mention. That’s a good starting point to figure out what matters to employers. Good luck!

    7. Fur Fir Fer*

      For tech writing, join the Society of Technical Communication STC and go to local meetings. Most tech writers are awesome and will help you. Also check out proposal writing and the Association of Proposal Manager Professionals APMP. Good luck!

  13. Dasein9 (he/him)*

    Just popping in to thank y’all again for being such a supportive community. I’ve just returned to OldOldJob after 2 months laid off and when things got rough, your kindness was a big help. I’ll do my best to pay it forward.

  14. my cat is prettier than me*

    Where is a good place to buy women’s suits? I’m trying to dress more professionally at work even though we don’t really have a dress code.

    1. CTT*

      If you’re in the US, Ann Taylor has long been my go-to for more formal work pieces (including my one suit).

        5. Tempest*

          Sign up for their emails and watch for sales. They regularly have things like 60% off sale styles, and you can pick up nice pieces for Old Navy prices.

      2. feline overlord's chief vassal*

        Ugh, Ann Taylor assumes that professional women do not have bodacious booties. As someone who is quite curvy at the lower level, I got quite frustrated trying to shop there. Maybe they’ve changed? I haven’t tried shopping there in years.

        2. Joielle*

          They have curvy suit pieces now! I just bought a bi-stretch suit with curvy cut pencil skirt for the bottom and it’s great. They also have curvy suit pants which I haven’t tried but look promising (waiting for another sale before I buy a pair).

        4. Jshaden*

          For women and femmes of all shapes and sizes, including the curvaceous, busty, and large among us, consider Universal Standard for suiting and workwear basics. Sizes run from 00-40 and 4XS-4XL (renormalized so that size 18 denim is a Medium), and specific pant styles are described by the hip to waist size difference. Once you figure out their sizing, it is pretty consistent across items. They are pricey even compared to Ann Taylor, but there are frequent sales.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      JC Penny’s has some decent quality but also generally inexpensive suit separates in their (Wordsworth? Something like that) line, which go together style-wise across their color options, you can choose between different styles of skirts and/or pants, and also allows for flexibility if your top and bottom half are not the same size.

      I don’t think they’re quite as nice as Ann Taylor or some of the other options, but if you’re experimenting or on a budget, they may suit anyway (pun not intended :P )

      1. HoundMom*

        Dilliards has some great clothing and often good sales. I just picked up a couple of pieces for 60 to 75% off on-line. I also like Jones New York which is only on-line these days.

    3. SansaStark*

      I’ve had great luck with Kasper at Macys. I never pay full price since their stuff frequently goes on sale.

      1. Resume please*

        Agreed, Macy’s! They have sales on every major holiday (including right now, probsbly.)

    4. Harlowe*

      Try on suits at major department stores, take note of the brands that fit you well, then go on Poshmark. It’s a GREAT time to buy second-hand because many people dumped their work wardrobes on thrift sites when they went fully remote.

    5. higheredrefugee*

      I am not thin or narrow enough for Ann Taylor so my go to has been Calvin Klein dresses from Macy’s and Nordstrom Rack, topped with blazers and cardigans from same. I find dresses to be more comfortable to dress up and down and also roll with weight changes better (year 12ish of perimenopause, yay!!) and also for public transportation commuting to add layers only needed for the travel. Depending on your taste, I’ve also had luck at Saks off Fifth and vouch for the washability, wearability, and durability of Lands End pieces.

      1. Texan In Exile*

        Their sleeveless sheath dresses are great! They are mostly true to size, so I get them on eBay. (But I have to be sure the fabric has the proper amount of lycra – the more lycra, the smaller the size I can buy. I usually get size 8, but I just got a size 10 that was lined. I thought I would have to alter it, but the lining and the fabric composition made it a lot less stretchy that what I usually get, so the 10 fit fine.)

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say exactly this.
        Plus, if you have good consignment or thrift shops around, those can be a bonanza. There are a couple in a very upscale town near me and yeow! Major designer scores for short money.

    6. Balanceofthemis*

      I’ve had good results at Marshall’s. Otherwise, if you are willing to buy separates, second hand clothing stores often have a good range of bottoms and suit jackets, and that can be really helpful if your proportions don’t match
      exactly, like me.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I actually got a good haul from Goodwill a couple weeks ago! It just sucks that you can’t try stuff on anymore.

        1. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

          I find that’s very Goodwill dependent – all of the ones near me have open dressing rooms, but there are other large thrift chains that do not.

    8. Echo*

      If you have a Nordstrom Rack near you it is a great budget option for professional clothing. I get all my suits there.

    9. Synaptically Unique*

      I wear a lot of Kasper (Belk, Dillard’s, Ross Dress for Less), Calvin Klein (same/similar stores), and Black Label by Evan Piccone (JC Penny). Find a handful of styles that work for you, and then take advantage of the sales. A lot of my business formal clothes are similar styles across different brands, but that makes it easier to mix and match. Since I get different colors and patterns (but all around the same color scheme), it doesn’t look like I’m wearing the same thing over and over.

    10. Joielle*

      If you want a suit that’s more on the casual end, I recently bought matching pants and blazer from Old Navy of all places and I like them! It’s the Taylor relaxed suit blazer and Taylor high-waisted trouser pants. I think they were like $40 for each piece on sale. It’s not a going-to-court look but it is a nice step up from business casual.

    11. Indolent Libertine*

      My kid has nice suit separates from Banana Republic. I think Macy’s (the western US equivalent of Dillard’s) also has that sort of thing.

    12. ONFM*

      Thrift stores. I’ve never been to one that wasn’t drowning in blazers. When I was starting out in a business-pro setting, I grabbed a few black blazers, a few pairs of black slacks, and then just mixed and matched with shirts (button downs, blouses, nice tanks) until I had a pretty failsafe wardrobe. Once you get an idea of what brands you like, you can be on the lookout for them, check ebay or poshmark, or shop the sales. Good luck!

    13. Chunky Suit Wearer*

      Lands End has washable wool (thin weight) suit separates in a full range of sizes. I’ve also had good luck at Talbots.

    15. BigLawEx*

      For traditional sizes, Theory or Theory outlet has some pieces I’ve had for years. Also second Ann Taylor/Loft. I’m quite curvy and have had good luck there – especially as you can buy pieces separately – so I can get a blazer in a 6 and a skirt/pant in an 8. Also, tailoring helps to adapt whatever you buy to your frame. In LA it’s about $10/piece.

  15. Cyndi*

    This is more of a vent than a serious advice question, because obviously I know what to do: does anyone else feel like whenever they’re rightfully corrected on something at work it gets worse before it gets better? I was spoken to at the beginning of this week about my punctuality, which was fair and deserved, and primarily an issue because I need to be at my computer and able to take calls starting at 9 sharp. So I’m pulling it together on that, but the last two days in a row (both WFH days) I was at my computer on time but then got up to grab coffee from the kitchen and missed a client call, both mornings, in the few minute window when I was gone. Which is genuine bad luck but of course is going to look like more tardiness from my boss’s end. Come on, universe, I’m trying here.

    1. retireee1*

      I don’t mean to be harsh, but if the issue is being on time, I would stay at my desk for a while and bring my own coffee. That would show everyone that you were really trying.

      1. ThatGirl*

        She’s at home – just in the kitchen instead of at the computer.

        Do you have a laptop or a mobile you take work calls from? Can you bring it with you while you’re making coffee? I’m assuming your home office is far enough from the kitchen that you didn’t hear it?

        1. Cyndi*

          Unfortunately it’s a desktop computer with a mic headset but I COULD unplug the headset while I’m AFK so calls ring through the computer speakers instead, thank you for the idea.

          1. ThatGirl*

            At least then you could hurry back if it rang and you were able to – but yeah, it’s just bad luck, so it goes. I work hybrid and miss calls/messages just as often in-office as away from it.

          2. Bitte Meddler*

            Would a Bluetooth headset work?

            I have one and I can make it all the way to my front door (down a hallway and past three rooms) before the Bluetooth cuts out.

        2. Zebra*

          But why would her boss need to speak to her about punctuality if she’s working from home? There’s no commute…no reason to be late.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Yeah, I’ve seen the figures from someone in Cyndi’s position during an HR investigation I was minuting and it seems to be harder than you might think. Sometimes even the lack of a commute can make people more complacent — they overestimate the time they can spend on a morning routine and struggle to get going on time. It’s often said that the people who live nearest the office are more often late, and that seems to be the case even when we work from home.

            I almost learned the hard way (almost missed a flight when I was 17 on my first solo trip abroad, because I mistook take-off time for boarding time and got to the gate just as they were boarding the last passengers), and following a family trait, immediately switched to being early as a way of avoiding being late. I’d rather get in and get going twenty minutes early than be five minutes late, and the UK time-keeping system is a lot more flexible than the US one (a lot more people are basically de facto salaried exempt; my role would be hourly in the US but I’m paid a fixed amount monthly, and I actually prefer getting going early when I’m most alert), allowing me to get going so I don’t just sit around, get absorbed in something else and overshoot. My dad can do that too — one whiff of health issues and he cuts way further back on unhealthy stuff than he even needs to. Sometimes we just need a real kick up the pants to get us compliant, and even then it can be hard switching. Cyndi is definitely in this category IME and yeah, needs to be a bit more present earlier so she can adhere to the spirit of the situation as well as the letter.

      2. Cyndi*

        I do make my own coffee! Every morning, on both WFH and in office days. There really is a big luck element here, because I only actually get a handful of calls a week, and my boss and I agree it would be unreasonable for me to be barred from going to the bathroom or kitchen for my entire workday in case somebody calls in that five-minute window. I really don’t take longer breaks than that, outside of my scheduled lunch.

        But I think you may be on to something with optics, in that if I at least stay glued to my desk for the first couple hours of the workday, and then someone calls while I’m on a bio break later on, it’s more obviously bad luck.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I think the “stay glued to my desk for the first few hours of the workday” plan is a good one! There’s a huge difference in optics between a client calling at 9:20 and you not picking up (did Cyndi step away for 5 min to get coffee, or has she not logged on at all yet?) and a client calling at 11:20am you not picking up (Cyndi’s probably getting a coffee/in the bathroom/etc. and will be back in a few minutes).

        2. the other shoe*

          I gotta say I don’t see much luck involved in WFH but still not having coffee in hand by 9am when you’re supposed to be on the clock. Unless by “luck” you mean “choosing to gamble with job requirements.” Like how a roulette aficionado attributes the state of their savings account to “bad luck at the casino”.

    2. SansaStark*

      I had the same issue (down to those 9am-on-the-dot client calls) and I finally told myself that I had to be ready to work at 8:45 having stopped by the restroom and coffee pot already.

    3. Bast*

      Like retiree1 said, I’d give it some time before you got up from your desk once clocking in. Use the restroom, make your coffee, etc., and be ready to sit for awhile before you get up again. Have all your ducks in a row. I’m not saying never use the restroom or get a glass of water, but if you clock in at 9 and are up again at 9:05, I can see how this could look either like malicious compliance or that you’re just simply late again.

    4. SEM*

      Speaking as someone who also struggles with being ready to work on time, what you are describing sounds a bit less like bad luck and a bit more like not actually being ready. Yes, you logged in on time, but if you were actually ready you’d have had your coffee with you in the first place. I’m saying this to see if it could help with a mindset shift, not to chastise you!

      For me, I really have to play games and trick myself in order to be on time. I have to get over the idea that being early is a waste of my time and convince myself that I will have a smoother day if I’m early and truly ready to go when I clock in. And if I have a smoother day, I can be more productive and be done sooner at the end of the day. It doesn’t work every day honestly.

      1. Cyndi*

        Oh, I’m very aware, and you’re welcome to chastise me because I do it plenty. I have executive dysfunction and mornings have been a really intractible issue for me for my entire life; I’m not throwing up my hands by any means, or saying this is acceptable, because it’s not and it’s caused significant problems in my life. But unfortunately this is where I’m currently at even after years of medication and optimizing my routine and playing mind games with myself, and I’m still working at it, but in the meantime I need to stay employed.

        1. Cardboard Marmalade*

          I struggle with mornings and executive dysfunction a lot, too. One thing I have found that has helped me a lot more than shame-based approaches is to try to make more room for my needs in the times and areas that I can. So for me, I’m the kind of neurodivergent who feels refueled by giving myself the time on days off to spend hours alone, hyperfocused on artistic hobbies. I still get twinges of guilt sometimes on a nice weekend when I’m not going out to socialize, but listening to and honoring my internal craving for that hyperfocus time whenever I can has really helped me then have more emotional capacity for hard deadlines and start times in the other areas of my life. I also sometimes get up ridiculously early just so I can veg around on the couch with my cat in my lap and a cup of tea before I actually have to do real stuff and get ready for my day. Again, just honoring that need for a slow start and some R&R before I face the world. I don’t know how much room there is in your schedule for stuff like this– I totally acknowledge that it’s a privilege I have in part because I don’t have any kids/elders to care for and don’t have a commute to add extra hours to my day, and because I’m an introvert blessed with many loving introvert friends who can maintain strong relationships with each other even if we don’t hang out every week. So YMMV, but as a general framework, I think the more you can think of cutting yourself more slack where you can instead of being harder on yourself, the more you will find that your mental and emotional capacity for the hard stuff will increase. Good luck!

          1. Le le lemon*

            Out of desperation: would you consider drinking a cold coffee something – that you could make the night before and put in the fridge? So quick to grab? Doesn’t have to be the best coffee of your life…like others, I think the key for good optics is to be at your computer/easily available from 9-11am, for the next couple of months, to reassure your boss. (Then make better coffee at 11am).

      2. carrot cake*

        “Yes, you logged in on time, but if you were actually ready you’d have had your coffee with you in the first place.”

        —
        THAT.

    5. I Have RBF*

      So I work remotely. I get up and do all my morning stuff, including making coffee and visiting the restroom, before I log in. The I spend my first hour at my desk, dealing with email, etc.

      The key is having all your stuff before starting work.

      If I have a bio-break at 10:30, it’s fine, because I got the urgent, “first thing” stuff dealt with.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      Oof, I remember these days when I was still getting my punctuality in order. The good news is you’ll reclaim your reputation and then you’ll be free for these little pieces of bad luck to not affect you. Think about what stuff you need to have ready in the morning and try to condense it a little, or get stuff out of the way the night before so that you’re extra ready and don’t need to leave your desk for a while. If you’re getting breakfast ready, try preparing some overnight oats the night before, use the spare time you’ve saved by not making breakfast to take a pre work bathroom break and put your coffee in a thermal mug before sitting down. That should give you a solid start.

    7. Meh*

      also you can show /trick other signs of productivity. e.g. send emails first thing so your activity is timestamped, or schedule emails ready from the previous evening to be sent at 830am.

      1. Mutually supportive*

        I wouldn’t schedule them to send , too easy to get caught out if an email lands with someone then they try to call and you aren’t there yet.

        But no harm in leaving a few unsent at the end of a day, ready to send when you first log in on the morning

    9. RagingADHD*

      Coffeemakers with a timer that you can set up the night before are very easy to find and inexpensive.

      Even without a timer, you can set the whole thing up the night before and just push the button as soon as you get up in the morning, before you go to the bathroom or do whatever your AM routine is.

      Even a Bialetti or French press can be set up the night before and completed in the morning.

      I’m unmedicated, too. You can do this. You just need to use lateral thinking and problem-solving instead of trying harder to do the same thing and get a different result (which never works).

    10. Dancing Otter*

      I don’t know if you will see this, so late, but… well, that’s kind of on point, isn’t it?

      I also have trouble being on time. Part of it’s underestimating the time required to do things, and part is getting distracted, but a big part is losing track of what time it is.

      So I live and die by setting alerts on my phone and smart watch. Need to log into a meeting at 10:00? Set an alert at 9:55 – time to grab coffee or hit the washroom, but not long enough to get side-tracked. Need to drive somewhere by 2:00? Add driving time to the appointment, adding ten or fifteen minutes to whatever estimate comes up, and an alert fifteen minutes before that.

      Does it always work? Honestly, no. But it does improve my chances of being very close if not precisely on time.

  16. TossAKoi*

    I keep debating whether to send this in but I’m paranoid about my coworker finding it, but the open thread feels a bit safer, so: What advice do y’all have for dealing with coworkers who bring up emotion unnecessarily in a work environmental? (Using gender-neutral terms/fake name for anonymity and because I don’t think gender or age is at play.)

    I have a coworker, Casey, who sometimes writes emails that emphasize their emotional response to work issues and assume bad faith in situations where that is unwarranted. Think, a piece of shared equipment is used once a month or less; once or twice in a six-month span, it is not returned to its proper place, and a chastising email expressing their “frustration” goes out to the whole team, even though this is the first time the problem has been brought up, Casey is not senior to anyone involved, and they ALSO forgot to return the equipment. Or maintenance takes a few days to fix an annoying but not threatening issue, and Casey attributes this to maintenance “not caring about us.” Or there is a week-long delay in updates on a project in which Casey plays a minor, not time-sensitive role, and they sent out a request for updates attributing the delay to “disrespect” for junior workers.

    Granted, I know for a fact that Casey has worked in bad work environments where some of these assumptions may have been justified… but I don’t think ours is one of them. Even if I agree with the actual issues, I still think most of them are too trivial to justify such an aggrieved tone! 99% of the time, someone just got busy and forgot to complete a minor task or send a “hit a snag, let you know when I have an update” email, and it almost never has a serious impact on our workload.

    I’m uncomfortable about how Casey’s emails presume personal insults, especially because we work extremely closely and I don’t want to be lumped into their attitude just because I’m affected by the same problem. When I bring up the same or similar problems, I usually try to take a more positive, solutions-oriented tone that focuses more on how the problem impacts my work, not my feelings. Our coworkers generally respond promptly and cheerfully to nudges from either of us, and do not acknowledge the “I feel insulted” sections in Casey’s emails at all.

    Is it worth me saying something? I work closest with Casey, and we are on the same level. Honestly, I also usually ignore these types of emails outright because they don’t generally have action items for me, but they make me tense, and I’m also concerned that Casey’s pessimistic attitude will have more serious impacts on our shared workload further down the line, either because they’re burning themselves out, they start to assume bad faith from me, or people start to treat Casey/our shared projects differently.

    1. Hiya*

      Casey doesn’t really sound like they would be super open and receptive to your feedback about their attitude. In one off situations, it might be worth saying (verbally, not in the email chain), “I don’t see it that way”. But other than that, don’t make her attitude your problem. IF your work does become impacted somehow, you can address that then with your manager but right now this feels like a THEM issue.

    2. EHSManager*

      In that situation, I wouldn’t say anything. If you supervised Casey, it would make sense to address it, but as a coworker, I’d just let it go.

      1. PotatoRock*

        Same
        chastising all-team emails about the staplers whereabouts are in the same bucket as passive aggressive bathroom signs – don’t be that guy, but also don’t get worked up about whoever is that guy. If the complaining is on email, you can just ignore it. If you want to say something in person, I like “huh, that definitely isn’t my experience with X team. Anyway, about the TPS report..”

    3. Grey cat*

      I agree that you’re likely not to get far if you address Casey directly. If you want to do something, you can go to their manager and let them address it. It sounds like this emails are negatively affecting you, so I’d also consider if you actually need to read them. Or if you must, could you find the pertinent part and just not read the rest of it?

      1. TossAKoi*

        I definitely have to read the emails–I can’t just not open emails from Casey since we work so closely, there’s no particular warning sign that one is going to be unnecessarily dramatic, and the complaints are often interwoven with more-pertinent stuff. But based on these comments I’m definitely going to put more effort into ignoring them.

    4. I Can't Even*

      So Casey is having a cognitive distortion in believing that there is ill intent when there is no evidence of ill intent. Since you are Casey’s coworker and not their therapist I may respond with a suggest such as “I do not believe that this is occurring due to co-workers not caring about others, if there is a problem with order of operations perhaps this is something you can explore with boss”. This will serve to identify the problem behavior and attempt to set a limit with Casey. If this is not something that Casey can accept and fly’s off the handle then this is something to talk to their supervisor about.

    5. RagingADHD*

      If Casey is discussing this with you live, either 1 on 1 or in a small group, you can just disagree mildly, along the lines of, “Oh, I don’t think that’s the case, it’s just a normal delay,” etc.

      But trying to address it as a pattern or respond to email is going to blow up. Leave it.

    6. Hyaline*

      Casey is sinking their own ship— punching holes in their credibility with overblown complaints, trashing good will with people who make honest mistakes or have different priorities for their time, and generally being negative. I would put some distance between myself and Casey and let Casey do what Casey is going to do.

    7. Juneybug*

      How does your supervisor feel about the situation? Do they have any advice how you can remain distant from your coworker while retaining your positive reputation?

      1. TossAKoi*

        I honestly have no idea! Since all of this is happening over email, I don’t usually have a chance to get an unfiltered reaction from my/our supervisor, and when she replies to the messages she just glosses over the weirdness and addresses the professional concerns cheerfully and sympathetically. Casey is genuinely a kind, well-meaning, hard-working person who just seems to spiral and send slightly overdramatic emails a few times a year, and for various reasons I don’t feel it necessarily rises to the level of my bringing this to my supervisor.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Oh I used to work with Casey! Right down to the feeling dread that I would get lumped into people assuming we had the same attitude. Honestly the biggest issue is probably your own internal feelings of being drained by this negativity. There’s very little reason to assume other people will see you as a doppel-Casey since your own style is so different and since they’ve probably already noticed on their own that Casey is simply the office Dementor. I wouldn’t “say something” to Casey about their tone as I think that’s outside your remit, but I might “say something” if you have any context to add, or if you think Casey is speaking for you and misrepresenting you. So, if Casey says “We feel like maintenance doesn’t care about us because of x”, I might say “Actually, not sure if “us” refers to me, but that hasn’t been my experience of maintenance at all” or “Just to be clear, I don’t feel disrespected fwiw!”. Up to you if you want to say as much to Casey and ask them not to speak for you before you email the person. If they’re just talking about their own frustration, I’d let that go.

    9. peter b*

      I have a co-worker like this, but they mainly express this in smaller settings, and sometimes it’s directed at me. I wouldn’t reply on an email chain, but I’ve had success with very lightly saying, “I get your point about [genuine inconvenience] but personally I’m not worried about it [bc xyz reasons, if applicable]”. The level of support we get has changed a lot since she joined, and I took the job knowing more of the political dynamics than she did, so I try to balance affirming it’s not dire with being breezy and keeping it short and not indulging. If you’re not encountering this in direct conversations with Casey, it’s probably not going to be helpful as all the small progress I’ve seen relies on me backing up my lack of outrage/concern with handling things with visible calm and good eventual outcome, so she can trust my read on things.

    10. ecnaseener*

      If anything, you could try to find an opening to mention that you’ve noticed you get much better results when you phrase things in xyz way, but NOT in the context of talking about Casey’s approach. Not worth inviting a tirade about their hurt feelings.

  17. Productivity Pigeon*

    I feel paralyzed with shame at the thought of applying to jobs I’m not 100% qualified.

    —

    I went to a prestigious business school then worked as a management consultant, got burned out, went on a long medical leave then was bought out when the pandemic started. I wasn’t a brilliant consultant but I did a lot of non-typical consulting projects so I have a bit of odd set of experiences and due to ADHD, I have some glaring weaknesses. But for example, I did get asked to lead the regional trainee program (500 junior consultants) so I did do good work too.

    After I lost my job, l went back to college to get a new degree in a completely different field (security studies and crisis management.)
    I didn’t finish my degree for various reasons so now I’m looking for job, unfortunately with a gap of a few years in my resume.

    Logically, I know I’m not unqualified for many jobs, despite the lack of a finished degree.

    But because of the burnout and not finishing, I constantly feel like a fraud to the point I’m having a hard time applying for jobs.

    I know you should apply even when you don’t fulfill all the requirements but I get this overwhelming sense of shame and almost panic that someone will read my application and… I don’t even know. Laugh? Tell their coworkers about this delusional applicant?

    I’ve done quite a bit of recruiting and I know that’s not how things work, and even if they did, it’s not like the recruiter is going to publish a newspaper article naming their most pathetic applicants…

    Other than therapy… what do I do?
    I feel SO insecure.

    2. Helewise*

      It’s not unusual for it to take hours/days of pacing and procrastination to get job applications out there, so I get where you’re coming from. What helped me was creating master lists and templates of achievements and experience as well as portions of resumes and cover letters so I could pull from those when pulling an application together. And then you can’t wait for the feelings to be right, you just have to DO it. Feel like a fraud, and then get out there and do it scared. And I have to say – I’m hiring for a position right now that is somewhere between entry-level and early-career and the applications I’m getting are wild (and wildly incomplete, with no evidence of ANY experience, education, or aptitude for the role: think auto parts sales and daycare backgrounds applying for a role that involves policy analysis). I’m sure this varies, but from what I’ve seen in the past few cycles if you’re applying within your field and following Alison’s basic cover letter-resume advice you’ll be head and shoulders above 90%+ of applicants!

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        That’s true, they probably do get a lot of unqualified applicants who have to apply to get unemployment and things like that.

    3. Veruca Salt*

      I’ve always worked in small (aka micro) environments, so as a semi-feral employee, I really don’t know how it works out in the “real” world. That said, how many times have you had a supervisor or colleague who seemed way less competent than you? Maybe it was their soft skills that got them there or just good ol’ fashion chutzpah. Keep that in mind as you apply. It’s probably less about checking all the boxes and more about being adaptable, curious, and willing to learn. It sounds like you are burdening yourself with unrealistic expectations. I’m sure that they get plenty of head-scratcher applicants. Instead of selling yourself short, look more dispassionately and objectively at your experience and recognize those times you did bring something special to the situation. I bet they are way more “I did do good work too” instances than your current state of mind is allowing you to acknowledge.

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        That’s a good point.

        I’ve definitely had less-than-perfect coworkers/clients.

        Part of the difficulty is that in my hyper competitive business school and then at my consulting job (which was my first job after graduation), people were SUPER competent. I was not in the top of the pack.

        Like, my college peers are partners at McKinsey now.

        I’m not thinking of applying to those hyper competent jobs but it’s hard to separate things.

        Like you say, I was good at many parts of my jobs and I was a decent employee but I wasn’t a star.

        1. M2*

          Everyone is different. It is ok you aren’t a partner! So many people in consulting are just in consulting for a couple years, it’s normal.

          What parts of your job did you like? Until you find a FT job could you volunteer somewhere? Something to put on your resume and you’re using your skills to help others.

          I would diversify your applications- apply some entry level and some that have the years of experience you do have. Also apply to jobs for business school grads but not consulting or banking.

          Do you have a network? Contact career services age your business school and attend alumni events for networking.

          1. M2*

            I also agree with others who say have a strategy and rewards for applying, but I think getting out there and volunteering or being around people even 10 hours /week may help you feel better, help with networking and communication skills, and feel better in general. I went through something sort of similar years ago and volunteering helped me a lot and helped me realize different roles I might be interested in.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I mean this is in the kindest way, but from the hiring side I’m definitely not going to laugh or gossip about the applicant because I simply do not care that much. I’m trying to get through the candidates, hire, and move on. Skim, move to next round or strikethrough, out of my brain. An example of the old “don’t worry, no one cares as much as you do.”

      When I was applying for jobs, it was also helpful to remind myself that I didn’t need to be the best, hell I didn’t even need to be that great. I just had to be the best out of any given candidate pool one time.

    5. EHSManager*

      What would you tell a friend who told you they felt this way? Most likely you would tell them that they should focus on their strengths and apply for as many jobs as they can. That’s what you should do.
      And, fake it till you make it, meaning that you should pretend to feel secure and confident as you apply and interview.
      Best of luck to you!

    6. chocolate muffins*

      Maybe rewards for things you can control, like submitting applications (vs. things you can’t control, like whether you get an interview or offer)? Send an application, get a piece of candy. Send 10 applications, go for a nice walk. Or whatever. You can also give yourself rewards for stuff that feels bad, like not hearing from an organization for X amount of time after submitting an application or getting rejected. Then if you get an outcome you like it’s happy because of the outcome, and if you get an outcome you don’t like it’s happy because you can have whatever reward you picked for yourself.

      Good luck!

      2. Six Feldspar*

        I did something similar the last time I was job searching – I was really trying to break through my paralysis and fear of not getting the jobs, so I bought myself takeaway for every ten *rejections* because it showed me I was pushing through that mental block.

    7. Aggretsuko*

      I feel the same way. I think as a woman you have to be *better* because you’re already starting from lower down, plus I come from an industry that was a stickler about how you had to fulfill every single requirement.

      I don’t really have advice, though, I just don’t apply for the job if I don’t think I could do all of it.

    8. Hlao-roo*

      My suggestion is two parts:

      1) Have some sort of self-soothing strategy for in-the-moment job-searching tasks (reading job ads, clicking the “submit” button to send your application, etc.). You’ll know best what works for you, but an example could: be feel shame and panic when looking at a job ad -> say out loud “no one is laughing at me. I can survive being embarrassed.”

      2) Have some rewards for yourself! Submit a job application? Treat yourself to a fancy coffee from a coffee shop, a slice of cake, etc. Submit ten job applications? Go to your favorite park/museum/restaurant/etc.

    9. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Advice borrowed from Dialectical Behavior Therapy and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy: give yourself permission to feel however you feel AND do the thing anyway.

      It is not “easy” — it requires extreme willpower at least the first few/several/many times, both to allow yourself to sit with and feel an intensely unpleasant emotion instead of trying to avoid or stop or justify or argue with it, and then to take an action that goes counter to how you feel.

      If you can do it one time (submit one application for a role you feel unqualified for), give yourself major props for the strength of will you’re building by doing this practice. Celebrate your success — the success is submitting an app; whatever happens after that is out of your control and irrelevant for now, so do your best not to even think about it. Think about how you did what you needed to even though it was hard, and you deserve to be proud of yourself for that. Take a short break to celebrate and be proud — it boosts willpower.

      Then do it again.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah this. If we all listened to our Imposter Syndrome, nothing would get done. Aiming to master the feelings first is understandable, but sometimes it doesn’t happen until after you do the actions you’re avoiding.

    10. Almost A Shrimp*

      Aw, try to be easier on yourself! You don’t sound like a fraud AT ALL! As someone else with ADHD and a not so traditional career trajectory, I think I can understand how you’re feeling, though. I have some gaps because I got fired, probably due in large part to my then-untreated ADHD. But I do have some really unusual experience that has turned out to be very valuable at times. It sounds like you also have that kind of experience.
      Try thinking of the unfinished degree as not really a degree. Reframe it so it’s however many years/credits of stuff you learned and how it enhances your qualifications. An unfinished degree is better than no education at all. It has value!
      My friend in HR has some great stories about people who have applied to jobs she’s posted. Even the weirdest ones weren’t really that weird, so I’m sure no one is judging your application as harshly as you might think they are.

    11. Mockingjay*

      Keep in mind that many job postings are laundry lists, copied and pasted from previous job descriptions, with a handful of unicorn wishes from the hiring manager. No one will meet 100% of the criteria. (Hint: go to the company website and look at other job postings. You’ll see what is standard company blurb, repeated in all the listings; the rest is usually the important job details.)

      If a job looks interesting, apply! You’ll be able to ask for specifics in phone screens and the interview. It can be an adventure – the job may turn out to be really interesting and in line with what you are looking for. Or it can be a dud and give you a funny story – “Company X had the wildest job posting – they advertised for an engineer, but really wanted an accountant!”

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        THIS. I think of a job posting as “this is everything I want from a fantasy perfect hire” and I’m not necessarily expecting every candidate to tick every box. The more I hire, the more I truly believe interviews and hiring in general is a two way street where the prospect and the manager have to decide if they are a good “match.”

        I found when I was intimidated by applications (by the way, including the one for my current job) it helped to remember that many OTHER applicants wouldn’t necessarily wait until they met each qualification to apply. Men in particular are more likely than women to apply with only some of the requested skills, research tells us. Rather than competing against the full text of the job posting, you are competing against the APPLICANT POOL and not everyone in the applicant pool has the required skills. That one really helped me combat the fears of not being good enough.

    12. Arrietty*

      I’m quite new to hiring but I’ve had a fair few applications from people who weren’t qualified for the role (actually, the majority weren’t, because it’s niche role in an emerging profession) and the only time I laughed was when the application form was returned completely blank. And then I emailed to let them know and give them a chance to resubmit (they did not).

      I agree that the only way out is through; apply anyway and survive the process.

    13. Minneapolis*

      Imposter-syndrome workarounds I’ve used:

      -Do the first draft of your cover letter as if it were a letter of recommendation for someone else. Heck, even change the name. Write it about an average white male (if that’s not you). What experience does THIS person have that fits this job?

      -If you keep a folder of kudos or kind words you’ve gotten over the years (I know lots of us do!), spend some time in there. :) THAT person is applying for a job, not some pitiful unknown.

      -Big glass of wine always helps.

      We’re rooting for you.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes to the “write the cover letter as though it were for someone else”! I find that really helps me get the words going, if I imagine I was talking about my best friend.

    14. Cedrus Libani*

      I have a weird hack: take on a persona and LARP your way through it.

      You should meet my friend Todd. He’s objectively nothing special, but he’s good enough, and he’s wealthy, athletic, and handsome. Todd has the unassailable core belief that everything will work out for him, and why wouldn’t he? It always does work out for him! By coincidence, his resume is exactly the same as yours. Next time you sit down with the job listings, try letting Todd apply for those jobs instead.

    15. Project Maniac-ger*

      I’ve been involved in hiring a variety of positions and always, allllwayyys there is someone who I swear read 0% of the job description because they are wildly unqualified. I promise you you will not be the most unqualified candidate.

      Job descriptions, even the “required skills” section, are a wishlist (except things like medical school degree for a doctor – legal requirement things).

      Good job searches take some effort, so have grace with yourself. If you have to do a speed round of applications then lay in the yard for an hour do it. If you can only get one application done a day, great, that’s better than zero.

  18. Valerie Loves Me*

    Started a new job a couple of months ago and strongly believe my supervisor has ADHD. They’re easily distracted, can’t engage in conversation that’s more than 15 minutes or so without getting antsy. Thinks they’ve shared something with me or that I know something, which I have not heard or don’t know. Gets frustrated if there’s back and forth or multiple questions. And oddly, answers straightforward questions with circular answers 

    Me: Does Director know about the delay with project X? 
    Them: Director initiated project X.
    (Remember…. frustration with multiple questions)

    I don’t expect to be able to change this and I’m trying to provide more overview and helpful, but brief information in my communication with them that help support them and myself (also CYA). But if anyone has tips on how they’ve successfully worked with similar personalities, I’d appreciate it! 

    1. persimmon*

      Oooh, that’s so frustrating. I have a colleague who does the same thing. I usually just keep asking until I get an answer (so in your example: “Thanks, do they know about the delay?” or “Have they been told about the delay?”). It also might be that they think they’re answering the question: the thought process on their end might be “They initiated the project so of course they are aware of the delay.”

      Rephrasing also helps for me sometimes, like “Can you bring me the item?” “Sure, where is it?” “I need it before this afternoon” “Okay, I’ll go get it from [place]” “No, it’s at [other place]”

      This might not be great advice if they get frustrated with repeating questions though. Depending on the question, there might be someone else you could get the information from? A coworker who’s more used to interpreting?

    2. WorkerDrone*

      I made myself very annoying by doing this, which ultimately didn’t help the relationship, but DID help me get clear answers, so fair warning.

      What I did was:

      A) Ask all of my questions via email. This way I had a timestamped log of all the times I asked for information to cover my butt in case I was perceived as the one delaying the work.

      B) Only asked ONE question per email. The question was both in the subject line and in the email itself. This was part of why I was so annoying; five questions meant five different emails, sometimes coming right in a row.

      C) If the question wasn’t answered, I copied/pasted the question and re-sent it as a new email, not as a reply to the prior email. This was the other part of why I was so annoying; five questions meant five emails, multiplied by however many times it took me to get an actual answer. Five questions could end up being as many as 12-13 emails.

      D) Regularly requested updates on projects I needed to be in the loop on via email – at least once a week. Again, one update per email, not a blanket email. If there wasn’t a clear response (i.e. “no updates on this”), I re-sent it as a new email.

      I just had to accept that my manager found me annoying and frustrating to work with. I also found my manager to be annoying and frustrating to work with, so I thought it was fair enough.

      This manager did try to ding me on a performance review, but I went to HR with all my time-stamped requests for information and all the non-responses I had received and was able to get someone else to do my performance review for that year.

      I would not suggest this method unless it truly is pulling teeth to get what you need. I only resorted to it out of desperation, but it did work.

    3. EHSManager*

      I had a supervisor like this and started sending all of my questions by email, with multiple questions numbered. Something like:
      I’m starting to work on Project X and have the following questions:
      1. My plan is to have this completed by Friday. Please let me know if you need it sooner.
      2. In order to complete this, I need (data) by Wednesday. Can you get me this data by Wednesday or should I ask (someone else)?
      3. I completed x portion but can’t move forward until I receive y portion.

      Then, when she came to me and said she needed to know the status, or told me that she had no idea I was waiting for information, I could forward the email as reference.

      It was frustrating but worked most of the time.

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        I had to do something similar with a past manager. I quickly learned that I needed to add the number of questions at the top of the email.

        So, in your example, I would say, “I’m starting to work on Project X and have the following questions (there are *three* questions in total).” Because he would answer the first question and then send his response. Then I would reply with, “What about the other questions?” And he would say, “Oops,” and then only answer Question #2.

      2. Anoon*

        Early in my career a manager told me that my doing this was “managing up” a term I had not heard of at the time.

        I am in senior management now and from this end I still send and appreciate receiving emails with bulleted or numbered lists that I can reply to in-line. This is actually the m.0. for a lot of my colleagues, a bit of a house style (gets really annoying when more that two people are in the chain, though– “see my responses in blue” followed by another person “added my responses in green” until it is overwhelmed by color and buried deep in the chain… dont do that!).

        It doesn’t always work, e.g., recently I sent such an email to my boss with about 5 questions in it and she responded “Yes!” (to which question??) but I know that she is is super busy and more than a little overwhelmed and it works most of the time (and when it doesn’t, I give her a quick call).

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Email is definitely useful, as other folks have said. For the mislinked answers and questions, (which might be audio processing, lord knows that catches me out all the time) – I find it’s useful to have preloaded context? Something like “Project X’s delay is going to cause issues with release, and The director is very invested in project X, who is responsible for giving them updates on the new timeline? ” In general, avoiding yes or no questions is helpful, because it tends to require more processing, which gives me time to narrow in on what was actually asked.

    5. Anon for this*

      As a line manager with ADHD who feels a little too seen by this, I would second the suggestions about email, and clearly bulleted or numbered questions. I’ve also been asking direct reports to have a list ready in a shared space of specific questions or what’s on their mind before we meet, so I can 1) start thinking about it and 2) have something to refer back to if I feel myself veering off track.

    6. Redaktorin*

      As a person with ADHD, I’ve never really heard of not being able to answer a direct question as a symptom? The criticism I usually get is that I’m far too direct in both my questions and answers.

      Just want to encourage you to not assume a person is ND just because they’re very annoying.

  19. chocolate muffins*

    Work related joys thread! I had a marvelous, very affirming conversation with a colleague/mentor. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      I had a younger colleague come in and ask me a “dad question” about her car. It made me feel really good that she was comfortable asking and that I could actually answer it since I’m not the most car savvy guy.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our quality and education team has set up education, training and demo sessions for one of my teams every week for the next two months. (I’d be even happier if they’d done this four months ago, but that horse is out of the barn, so I’m being optimistic about going forward from current state.) I’m really happy with what I’ve seen of their education plans so far and I think it’s going to be great for my team in the long run, but definitely an adjustment.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Oooh, nice. We got ice cream today, which should actually have been another one for me.

        This week was just a planning week and so on for us, but we had 1st years in today and an ice cream van to welcome them to the school and teachers were invited to have some ice cream too.

        Yeah, it’s been a good week.

        Classes start on Monday for us.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      A few things this week.

      Firstly, I got the supervision periods I wanted. Background: in addition to the classes we teach, teachers in Ireland have to be available for cover for a number of periods. In our school, we rank our free periods in order of which we are most willing to be available, but since like, nobody is going to offer up the first class on Monday morning if they have it free, you don’t always get the ones you want.

      Anyway, my timetable isn’t completed as I am a learning support teacher and it will depend when students need support, so I put my 1st two choices as the last two periods on Friday, which are not filled yet and then the last two periods on Tuesday, which are similar. And I got all of these. Unlike first periods, when you have to be in because you don’t know if somebody will be sick or delayed on the way to work by traffic issues, I will be able to go home early on days when I am not needed for cover.

      Also, although my timetable has not been completed, the classes I have so far look really nice.

      And my teacher’s diary this year is in my absolute favourite colour.

    5. BellaStella*

      HR dealing with stuff as I noted in a comment above. Getting clarity on a deliverable. Seeing lovely colleagues.

    7. A Girl Named Fred*

      I actually got up the nerve to tell my supervisor that I’m interested in the position my coworker is vacating in a couple weeks! They don’t know whether they’re refilling it yet (which, please for the love of everything DO refill it, whether it’s with me or not!) but I at least put my name out there as an option and I feel good about that.

    8. Anax*

      I’m still having a wonderful time at my new job! I had a really nice chat with my PM this week, who is apparently ecstatic to have me, and I’ve been moved into a sort of deputy-manager role on my team, doing QC and organizing so the team lead can work on other duties.

      It’s really nice! Three months in, and I’m so happy and relieved to be here, after having a hell of a spring at oldJob.

    9. Almost A Shrimp*

      One of my projects is going super well! This one is particularly close to my heart since it’s a treatment for mental health disorders (I did my masters thesis on genetics and BPD/MDD/schizophrenia and responses to treatments) that I think would be a such an amazing thing for a lot of people! And the client is awesome to work with, so I’m happy to help them succeed!

    10. Justin*

      I mentioned this above but I’m actually encouraged that my colleagues on a hiring team took the work very seriously and weren’t inherently swayed by a job candidate’s mission adherence. No idea who ends up being hired but at previous jobs I’ve seen people hired for how much they care about the work only, and I realize now that that works only if you pay poorly like my previous jobs did.

      Just made me feel like I’m a place with, as Logan Roy would say, Serious People.

    11. But maybe not*

      After trying to complete projects for two YEARS with internal service units, we finally just went ahead and hired a consultant. We’re in week two of project meetings and it’s heaven to not have to project manage both MY department (the client) and their team.

    12. Hillary*

      I really like my startup’s new website. And my business partner likes it too even though it’s replacing one he designed. I can’t wait to launch in two weeks.

    13. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I dislike my job, but this week I am so thankful for the people. I had a big life upheaval that led to a mental health crisis– which hasn’t happened since well before I had this job– and I had no shame crying in front of my boss, who was extremely sympathetic. I also have a ton of flexibility with my schedule, which meant I could do what I needed to do, and I was fully confident that no one would care if I was late to work or had to miss a meeting. I’m going on a two-week vacation very soon, so the timing is terrible, but my team has been incredibly supportive.

    14. Garbanzo*

      A new person started this week and I really think she’s going to be a good fit for the role/team/company. I know it’s early, but the last person in the role had an aversion to doing the actual tasks needed and caused me extra work. This person is comfortable doing the tasks and has been pleasant to train.

    15. Sled dog mama*

      I’m on a PIP and it’s going really well, I think I will be able to meet all the milestones and my boss told me yesterday in our check in that everyone has confidence in me to do the job so this is mostly about showing that I can deal with my depression/anxiety and not let it take over my life again. I also brought up that I’m struggling a little with scheduling therapy appointments (nature of the job, sometimes we don’t get off at a consistent time and Murphy’s law says it will always be when I have a therapy appointment) he encouraged me to just tell my site supervisor that I need to leave at X time for personal reasons and that I will be certain everything is done in a timely fashion (it’s complicated but we’re contractors so I have a site supervisor who isn’t actually my supervisor).
      I’m incredibly lucky to have a boss who can have that conversation and make me feel like that’s a reasonable idea and I can accomplish it rather than feeling like an idiot for not just saying I have to leave and everything will be done before it’s due.

    16. Jay (no, the other one)*

      A colleague started a call this morning with “I was so happy to see your name on the schedule! I love working with you.”

    17. Six Feldspar*

      I’ve been trying to stand at work more this week, and discovered that I tend to groove absentmindedly to whatever song is stuck in my head. Now that I’m aware I’ve noticed it sitting as well, but more so when standing!

    18. allathian*

      I’m getting a new manager on Monday. I suggested adding something to the agenda for our new team’s meetings. She agreed and I also got a few thumbs up from my new teammates (I know them because we used to work on adjacent teams, but now 3 teams will be consolidated to 2).

  20. Lost at Sea*

    After several years I successfully completed a long running project. I was then moved to a much lower position in both title and pay. This wasn’t because of poor performance (I asked) but because of rules in our organization and indifference from upper level leadership. Since then I’ve had a few people offer to let me continue doing the higher level work at my lower title and pay. I think they mean well, but I’m not interested in going above and beyond currently. Any suggestions on professional ways to decline, particularly to the upper leadership who put through the demotion?

    1. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “This wasn’t because of poor performance (I asked) but because of rules in our organization”

      What kind of rules does your organization have that say, “When someone successfully completes a long running project, he/she shall immediately be moved to a much lower position in both title and pay”? And how does your organization justify such rules? Do these rules apply to everyone who successfully completes a long running project?

      1. Lost at Sea*

        The work didn’t have a permanent position attached so once the work was done it was assumed to be over. I was on an upgraded contract which they ended early and returned me to my original position. Leadership does have flexibility on this that they’ve used for other employees, but the decision was made by a member of the leadership team who has a terrible reputation across the organization for treating employees poorly. I had been branching out to work with other teams, which is part of why people are reaching out to ask for my help with new things that come up.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      “I would only be interested in returning to my previous job duties if the title and pay were also part of the package. If an opportunity to be reinstated opens up, please let me know.”

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      “That’s above my current pay grade.” No need to sugarcoat 6 they know what they did.

      1. M2*

        This. People did something similar to my spouse, although they got a promotion and only slight pay raise but were meant to now run multiple departments. Then there were the asks to do things for even more departments.

        My spouse has nothing to do with marketing but ended up doing a big marketing campaign that was successful. Then they found the head marketing person, my spouse didn’t get more $ and now is meant to keep doing marketing work!

        My spouse had enough and now doesn’t do anything more than their actual job and even then they ask “is this good for me and my family?” If the answer is no they don’t do it. Marketing questions and questions from other departments now just get forwarded. You can’t do everything.

        You should apply to for other roles. I’m sorry they did this to you

    4. lost academic*

      Your management sucks and isn’t going to change.

      Don’t go above and beyond without getting something in return, and that’s not a verbal promise for the future. Some places, sure, you need to try and get the future benefit, but you know the ending of this story here.

    5. Sara K*

      I would suggest something along the lines of “I’m not sure if you’re aware but the role where I was doing (thing they’ve asked you to do) has finished up and I’m back doing (your original duties/role). If you need someone to do (thing they’ve asked) you’ll need to talk to (your manager/someone senior who is responsible for moving you back to your lower position).”

      The only way to make it clear that the work you were doing is necessary and should be re-instated is to make it the problem of the person who thought it wasn’t necessary.

  21. Hello!*

    I’m trying to process my feelings on something that happened. I’m sorry for being so general but with so many people reading AAM and the seriousness of the situation….

    I was assigned a once in a lifetime work project. I was thrilled to find out I would be working with someone I admired professionally. Let’s call them Bill.

    Bill abruptly resigned the other week. It turns out that while Bill didn’t do anything illegal he did something that was big time morally corrupt. Given the industry we’re in and bill’s actions it was probably best he left.

    I am having a hard time comprehending he wasn’t on that pedestal I thought. (Substitute any adjective) – he royally messed up. How could someone be so naive to think their situation and thoughts wouldn’t be found out. I’m so angry at his actions; I’m sorry for bill’s beautiful family who came by when the team worked late; selfishly I keep thinking can this project continue and very confusingly feel bad for Bill with his downfall. Apparently this is the first time his situation was publically found out but this moral corruption has gone on for years – he just hid his feeling to get the benefits and perks from the project. How do you deal with someone you supported professionally is not the person you thought they were. It’s all a big scandal now in our company.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      OOF. I’m sorry for all of this. I think it is important to remind yourself that what you saw of/from Bill isn’t all of Bill. People aren’t always the same as they present themself and they can do a great job presenting themself publicly so many are unaware of the other side.

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      I think (this is from personal experienced, I am definitely not a therapist but should probably call one most days) that understanding and accepting that “his fooling of me is not a reflection of me” is huge. Because it really isn’t a reflection on you that you, and a lot of other professionals, were fooled.

      1. Venus*

        Yes, in my experience this is a huge part of the weird feelings afterward. I’ve worked in a couple situations where someone who was very well regarded did something illegal (sufficiently illegal that they were charged legally and found guilty). The people who knew them well were really confused and questioned themselves a lot, despite the fact that they had good reason to put the person on a pedestal – both situations that immediately came to mind were for people who were really smart and had many years of unusually good work – and had no reason to doubt.

        Take care of yourself Hello!

      2. Arrietty*

        Agree – it is a GOOD thing to be a person capable of trust and who assumes positive intention. It strongly suggests that you’re a person who can be trusted and whose intentions are good.

    3. Goddess47*

      You are allowed to mourn the person you thought Bill was… go through those stages of grief and, hopefully, you will come out on the other side.

      Sorry this happened to you. Good luck.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I relate to this. In my hobby life, I worked with a director that actually directed (you laugh, but in my experience most don’t) and would give me good parts where almost nobody will. He got fired a few months ago for divey behavior. He’d had An Incident many years ago, people thought he’d shaped up, and apparently… not. I didn’t have him on a pedestal, but I did like the dude and I don’t approve of the behavior, but I’m also sorry for my personal loss on finding out someone I liked was a bad egg all along.

    5. Householder*

      Nobody is who you think they are. They’re not even who they think they are. Everyone is human, complicated, often contradictory, and prone to making poor choices in the right circumstance, sometimes with far reaching consequences. It’s just something to accept and move on. It doesn’t mean you missed some warning sign, or you were somehow at fault for admiring the admirable things about Bill.

    6. Hyaline*

      Ooooof that’s so hard! Definitely a case study in the genre of “never meet your heroes” with an extra layer of it actually having an impact on your work and day to day life. A few thoughts in no good order:

      1) It’s absolutely no reflection on you, your judgment, your work, or your character that Bill did what he did and that you didn’t “figure him out” before it came out. None.
      2) Related, if anyone tries to lump you or anyone else in with him, they are clodhoppers and don’t deserve to have opinions. I doubt this will happen and if it does I bet it will be shut down very quickly, so don’t fret over it.
      3) Good stuff he did was still good stuff he did. People are complicated. Assholes can do good work. Ethical clown shows can have good contributions to projects. So, if he did foundational work for your project, or even for the field, that’s still useful and usable, don’t feel wrong or guilty about using it. Obviously this is variable and a “verify before trusting” situation if his ethical breach had anything to do with his work, but don’t feel like you can’t separate, say, that excellent report from 2022 that’s informing your project from In Reality Bill Was Kinda A Douchebag.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      There’s nothing selfish in wondering about the project, by the way! It is very important to you personally and professionally–Bill’s actions affected you directly. Even if his offense wasn’t directed at you personally the fallout hit you.

    8. Part time lab tech*

      Sometimes it’s good to remember that people code switch. I sometimes read articles about colleagues defending sleazy people. The colleagues haven’t seen the bad behaviour because sleaze is not in a position of power over them and is not attracted to the colleague so colleagues can’t believe sleaze would do such a thing.
      The sleaze did do it though but it’s not a reflection on the colleague that they didn’t pick up on it. The sleeze had no reason to express the bad behaviour to colleague.

  22. Permanent pls?*

    I just spoke to a recruiter who reached out with a 3 month full time contract role that has the potential to turn permanent.

    I’m happy enough in my current role in the short term but can see myself growing unhappy in it as time goes on (no growth opportunities, staff shortage following retirements, the 10% of my role I dislike growing to take up more of my time). So I’d like to get out eventually but not risk it for something that could end in 3 months.

    The recruiter said she would strongly recommend the company interview me (likely next week) and I’m trying to figure out if there’s anything I could ask them then to sus out the actual likelihood of a permanent role. Any suggestions?

    1. pally*

      You can ask them why they aren’t directly hiring for this position. Do they like to “try before they buy”, or is there no space in the budget to make this a permanent position?

    2. TCO*

      I don’t know what you have to lose by directly asking them about the likelihood of the job turning permanent. You could also ask what percentage of their contract hires have turned permanent over the last few years.

      You really don’t have anything to lose here. You aren’t looking to leave and you haven’t even looked at job openings yet. This company wants to meet you. You hold a lot of power here, including the freedom to walk away without second thought, and so you shouldn’t tiptoe around the issues that would be deal-breakers for you.

    3. Contracting101*

      You can ask, but I don’t know how reliable an answer you’ll get if the answer is anything beyond “we’ll consider it when the contract runs out”. It’s not that common for contracts to turn permanent (although it does happen) so you should evaluate it with a default lens of 3 month contract.

  23. feline overlord's chief vassal*

    I have a bachelor’s degree in a STEM field from a prestigious university, and two master’s degrees. My GPA’s for my two master’s degrees are 4.0 and 3.9. I want to show this off on my resume; some people will notice and be impressed. Thus I have in my resume something like this:

    First University, Night School – GPA: 3.9
    Master of Science in Subject 1

    Second University 2, Night School – GPA: 4.0
    Master of Arts in Subject 2

    Very Impressive Undergrad University, The College
    Baccalaureate in Some STEM Field

    A friend who was kind enough to give me blunt feedback on my resume noticed that I don’t give a GPA for my undergrad degree. He said that it was “conspicuously” absent.

    It’s not that my undergrad GPA was that bad; it’s that the university has some radical notions (or did in the 1960’s, when they “reformed” the grading system) and they don’t really DO grade point averages. I’ll link to the university’s official explanation in a comment.

    There are non-standard, unofficial ways to calculate a GPA from the transcript. But I’m concerned that if I calculate a number in an unofficial way, someone who knows about this university’s policies is going to call bullshit, and doubt the truthfulness of my resume overall.

    Is it that glaring if I leave off the undergrad GPA? Are people going to think I have something to hide? Does it look sloppy? Can I just put “grades – good” or something like that in place of GPA for that one?

    Surely there’s some way to show off how academically driven I was as an adult, when getting my master’s degree, without unfairly implying bad things about myself as an undergrad?

      1. Go Bruno*

        lol I was going to say, sounds like Brown. I don’t think even a lot of Brown grads know about the GPA thing (and also, I’ve heard they will calculate it for grad schools that are sticklers about it.) Plus, they somehow figure out who gets Phi Beta Kappa…I’d say it’s probably fine to calculate. But as an alum, I’ve found that the name is enough to open doors to people who care about that kind of thing. Unless your grad schools are known for their difficulty such that a 3.9 or 4.0 is wildly impressive, I’d leave GPA off altogether.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Isn’t that kind of well-known about Brown? Like I know Brown doesn’t really do grade point averages and I don’t even know what state Brown is in or…anything else about it. So I assumed most people in the US would know that Brown grades are a bit different.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          In other words, I don’t think it would look like you have something to hide, if people are familiar with the university or could check it out.

        2. Aggretsuko*

          I worked in academia for years, have a relative that went to Brown, and I had never heard of this. So I don’t think it’s a standard thing people know about Brown.
          I agree that it stands out that you don’t list one, but a disclaimer about Brown and their lack of calculations might be required there.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Did your grad schools award cum laudes or other honors? It’s not always done, but MS cum laude … doesn’t look as jarring to me as the numbers do.

      1. feline overlord's chief vassal*

        One of them gave me a prize for having the highest GPA in my graduating class (the 4.0). I have a medal on my TV credenza. I think that to explain that, though, would be much wordier and take so much more time to parse– recruiters spend milliseconds per resume these days, want something instantaneously comprehensible. Neither degree program mentioned a cum laude award; maybe because I did both these degree programs part-time? (While also working, raising a special-needs kid, etc., of course.)

      2. Higher Ed Admin*

        Many, many schools do not do Latin honors at the grad level because you’re supposed to be performing higher to begin with. At the undergrad level, Cs get degrees. At the grad level, less than a B average can land you on academic probation.

    3. Banana Pyjamas*

      Could you write Est. # or Appx. #? Anyone who knows won’t bat an eye, and I imagine anyone who doesn’t would ask.

    4. Cyndi*

      I would leave off all the GPAs. I think getting two masters degrees is more than enough evidence that you were highly academically driven, and putting GPAs on your resume at all gives the opposite impression of someone who’s building their resume around academics because they lack “real world” work experience. Which may be true–your experience level isn’t clear from your comment–but even so I would just leave them out.

      3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Agree.

        Even when candidates are evaluated in part on academic skills –my University department has some roles like that — we have other ways of assessing those skills and I still don’t want to see GPA on a resume or CV.

      4. Rex Libris*

        When someone lists their GPA and overly focuses on their academic achievements, it can give the impression that either A) They don’t have any professional achievements to highlight or B) They think academic success equals work success, which can come across as a bit naive.

        1. Rex Libris*

          For what it’s worth, I finished my master of science with a 4.o and have never felt the need to put it on a resume, even fresh from grad school.

      5. Hyaline*

        Honestly, this was my gut reaction, too. You list the masters’; that’s enough info without the GPA. (And in my experience…well, most people in grad school have high GPAs. It’s not to undervalue your work and accomplishment, but it’s not something that will truly, IMO, stand out.)

      6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Hard agree. As a hiring manager that stuff is meaningless to me since I don’t know anything about academic standards from college to college or what the grading criteria was. Plus we’ve all known people who did extremely well in school and it didn’t necessarily translate to skills in a workplace setting.

        You should be very proud of your hard work and great grades! But unless you’re applying for academic work it isn’t really something that can help me make the kind of decision a resume is designed to do.

    5. Reba*

      I don’t think this a big deal that needs a solution. You went to a prestigious undergrad and performed well in grad programs; the message is getting conveyed.

      1. UpstateDownstate*

        Agreed. I would’t list GPA. I also haven’t seen that asked in online applications for years now. Just skip it.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      As someone who got two masters degrees as an adult, at the same time, while working full time — it is highly unlikely that your GPA matters at all, and “academically driven” is only so relevant to your working career.

    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      I think the schools will speak for themselves, and you can take the GPAs off entirely.

      However, I also don’t think your candidacy will stand or fall on not having GPA listed for undergrad.

    8. snowdog*

      What is the timing of your 2 Master’s degrees and undergrad? If you have had multiple jobs since then I would argue GPA is pretty irrelevant even though it does show you were academically driven.

    9. Jessica*

      I’m in academia in the liberal arts, so maybe my perspective doesn’t apply here, but I wouldn’t be impressed by a 3.9 and a 4.0 GPA in a master’s program. From my experience, most students got an A or A- grade, and a B+ was reserved for students who were seriously not meeting expectations. It’s not grade inflation so much as it is a different purpose for grades — the true feedback/evaluation comes from professors much more directly engaging with your work, and the grade is sort of just an external marker to the world that the student met expectations.
      It looks like your resume is impressive enough to just list your schools and degrees, no need to add the night school designation or the GPA.

      1. chocolate muffins*

        I agree – GPA does not really matter in grad school and a high one isn’t impressive (at the grad level, I’d be more impressed by publications, funding, etc.). Also, I am an academic and did not know that Brown doesn’t calculate GPA, so to me, no undergrad GPA + high grad school GPA might suggest someone who did relatively poorly as an undergrad student and doesn’t really understand academic norms, because it is very rare to list grad school GPA for anything. So I would take off all the GPAs for all degrees.

      2. Juanita*

        I’m in academia in STEM, and agree with Jessica—in my department, undergraduate GPA actually matters more to us in the hiring process than graduate GPA, for the reason Jessica stated (unless your graduate GPA is very low, like below 3.0—which we would find out because we request transcripts at a later stage in the hiring process). As a measure of graduate school success, we prefer to look at your paid teaching assistantships, research assistantships, and the stature of the professors who are writing your rec letters or serving as references. (Most master’s students in my field don’t have journal publications.)

        FWIW, I also went to Ivies and work at one now, and didn’t realize Brown didn’t calculate GPA—but if your resume came across my desk, I definitely wouldn’t reject it for lack of GPA! If you became a finalist, I would just reach out and ask you about it.

        TLDR – don’t worry about it.

        1. Juanita*

          Adding a note to say that regardless of whether you list your graduate GPA or not, you *can* definitely mention the 4.0 GPA prize on your resume, in an “Awards and recognition” section, or in a bullet point under the name of your master’s program. I would list it as something like:
          – Awarded [Name of prize, or simply “class prize”] for graduating with the highest GPA among a class of ## [number of graduates in the class].

        2. Almost A Shrimp*

          Oh man, this is such a blow to my ego. I graduated with a BS and a 2.2 GPA, which obviously is terrible. Got my MS 10 years later from a really good (not Ivy-good, though) with a 3.8. I thought I had redeemed myself, academically lol

          1. peter b*

            I think getting the graduate degree at all is proof you grew and improved, and made a very purposeful effort to do so!

          2. Juanita*

            Well, hiring in academia/higher ed (for research and faculty positions, at least) is definitely not normal, compared to hiring in other fields! In reality, I don’t think undergrad GPA matters at all as a predictor of someone’s future success (in academia or outside it), especially ~5+ years later. But *insert shrug emoji* academia is weird. (FWIW, I learned after I was hired that I almost didn’t get an offer – and was already a second choice candidate, only receiving an offer after someone else declined – because I had C+ and B- grades in undergrad classes related to the discipline in which I now work. 8 years and 3 promotions later… hopefully I have proved my point above.)

          3. Project Maniac-ger*

            Nope, it’s still something to be proud of! what folks aren’t saying about high gpas is *of those who finish.* like a form of survivor bias. The accomplishment is finishing the master’s degree, because you wouldn’t have finished if you didn’t perform well.

    10. allx*

      I don’t think it matters or is glaring that the undergrad GPA is missing. And it can be explained to those who are not aware of the no-letter/number grading system of the school if asked. And if the 2 masters degrees are in the area of the current job search, then the GPAs for those are relevant information’ not so much the undergrad.

      I do hesitate at seeing “night school” added to the degree line. I went to night school myself for two advanced degrees in my profession (JD and LLM), and understand the impulse (see how hard I worked and how dedicated I was), but I personally believe there is a bias against night school attendance rather than it being a plus. To me, it is the kind of thing that might be good to bring up in an interview or in a cover letter. But I would leave the night school notation off. If you decide to leave it on, the way I addressed when it came up in my early job searches was to say “my mortgage and bills didn’t go away when I decided to pursue [degree], so I kept my job and went to night school” followed by how challenging it was and how excellent I did. Good luck to you.

      2. Anoon*

        Yep, I thought your friends comment was going to be about “night school.” I would delete that and the GPAs.

      3. Cj*

        I agree that there is a bias against night school, and I don’t understand why. in my case, I went to college for two and a half years starting right out of high school. I had already switched my major a couple of times, and still wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, so I took a break from school.

        I had had enough accounting in college that I was able to get a job at a CPA firm, and decided I want to be a CPA. so I started taking night classes.

        Those classes had the same Professors, used the same textbooks, and the same exams as the daytime classes. also, about 80% of the students in the night classes that I took were traditional, full-time students. it just happened to work out better for their schedule, or they needed the class and it was the only one they could register for because the day time ones were full. so I really don’t get the bias.

        I would leave off the GPAs though. as other people have commented, it shows a lack of understanding that school is not the same as work. and as one person mentioned, I might be worried that if hired this person would be constantly bringing up their academic achievements at work.

    11. Yes And*

      Speaking as a hiring manager who has reviewed a lot of resumes, if I was looking at a person who graduated from Brown and has two relevant masters degrees, that’s impressive enough. I can’t imagine a situation in which knowing their grad school GPA would move the needle one bit. If anything, someone including their GPA when they’re more than a year out of school signals, “This is someone who doesn’t understand how hiring works and/or might flaunt their academic credentials in disruptive or unproductive ways.” I’d just leave it off.

    12. EHSManager*

      I’d just leave it as is. If an interviewer asks you about it, you have a perfect answer about the grading system at the time.

    13. Jenna Webster*

      As a hiring manager, I would find it odd to have your GPA listed. It isn’t a factor in hiring, and I don’t know how rigorous the programs were, so it mostly just seems a bit pretentious. It wouldn’t be a factor in your favor for me.

    14. Random Academic Cog*

      I would probably raise an eyebrow at a GPA, especially from graduate degrees. It’s really not relevant to most work contexts and it feels a bit pretentious. A law degree and you’re applying as a lawyer for your first law role? Sure, might be relevant. Medical degree and applying for a fellowship? OK. Can’t think of much else where it would help rather than hurt. Most contexts you’d come across negatively and we’d worry you’d be a know it all with an inability to take feedback from “lesser mortals” – basically, not worth the risk of hiring.

  24. persimmon*

    How do you guys stay motivated when you’re leaving a job? I gave my notice this Monday and ever since then I’ve had the hardest time keeping focused. Things are getting done, but slower than they should be and I think it’s because some part of my brain is saying “It won’t be my problem in three weeks, so who cares?”

    I guess it could just be the burnout catching up with me but the timing is frustrating. I /should/ be working harder to get everything wrapped up and documented, but it’s difficult. I sit down to really work and the next thing I know I’m either staring into space or on AAM.

    1. birder in the backyard*

      I don’t know if this applies, but keep in mind that you don’t owe EXTRA work when you’re leaving a job. You can either do your job as usual OR prepare documents for the next person OR bring a few of your projects to a close while ignoring the less urgent ones. But it’s unreasonable for you to be expected to do all three.

      1. persimmon*

        That’s good to keep in mind, thank you!

        My problem comes in the fact that I’m the only one remotely qualified to do what I’m doing and since we’re on a hiring freeze I probably won’t be replaced for who knows how long. So I’m motivated (or I should be motivated) to get as much cleared out as possible and to record as much as possible for the next person. When I came onboard the position had been empty for a few years so I had a boatload of backlogged materials to work through and no clue where to start, what had already been done, etc. I just really hate the thought of leaving the next person in that position…

        1. Mockingjay*

          You’re not leaving that person in that position. Your soon-to-be-ex company is doing that. When a company has someone with a scarce key or unique skill, they should capture that knowledge base as part of good, ongoing business practices. You don’t wait until someone is leaving to write how-to documents or suddenly find a body to cross-train.

          I’d focus more on documenting statuses and where things are, than trying to complete tasks and projects. I think that will give you peace of mind for your successor and your former (almost) coworkers.

    2. Picard*

      Are you me??

      I’m out in two weeks (after 2 months notice) and I’m DONE. New person came onboard a couple of weeks ago so I’ve been training but there is SO much in my position that they farmed out the responsibilities to two people. I feel like I’ve focused most on the regulatory aspect of the position thats going to current staff member and not so much on the higher level stuff going to the new gal.

      I’m so so done. I’m trying to focus on getting ONE thing caught up/finished each day and thats about my bandwidth.

      1. persimmon*

        Oh god, yeah I feel that. I am so ready to just be done.

        Lucky you getting a new person already though! It’s gotta be nice to be able to train your replacement.

  25. Banana Pyjamas*

    HR screeners and hiring managers, are you screening out candidates with business management degrees when the position asks for a business admin degree or is it more of a situation where the admin degree is preferred but the management degree is okay.

    Context: The positions that make sense for my next step are mostly are middle management and upper middle management that deal with managing a team to meet KPIs, operations management and management analysis. Even though all the university sites I’ve read through indicate this would fall more in under business management, education requirements tend to be set by county/township board and/or supervisors who don’t necessarily understand the ins and outs of the work, so most positions ask for business admin degrees (finance, real estate OR RELATED).

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      This may vary by field and other things, but when I’m looking to hire to a manager I don’t care what their degree is in. I’m more interested in their relevant work experience. So at least for me it would make no difference

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Approximately half of job listings in my field consider experience in lieu of education, but that reduces my total experience to less than the total ten year minimum I have seen in most job postings. About a quarter of all roles consider two years of experience to one year of education, which puts me back at entry level. Accordingly, I’m going back to school. Business admin is the second most requested degree, however the program was so misrepresented and is so disorganized that I’m already hoping to transfer for spring…and classes start next week. The trick is the community college I’m transferring to has a bridge program for business management rather than business admin.

    2. Hiya*

      No. I actually care very little about the type of degree they have. I care, almost exclusively, about their responsibilities in recent roles

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        If a candidate previously did higher level work, but took time off work to back to school, does that change the calculus?

      2. Stuff*

        You may not care, but is the automated system going to filter out anyone with business management, because it’s looking for business admin?

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Yeah that’s something to consider. Usually jobs in my field list a couple of degrees then say “or related”, so I hope they wouldn’t set their filters their way.

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      As far as I’m aware, business administration and business management don’t have any relevant distinctions in the context of prerequisite for a job. We would treat them the same for the purposes of evaluating an application.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Almost everything I read seemed like splitting hairs honestly. Glad to see I’m not the only one who sees it that way.

  26. Sneezy*

    I’m looking for passive, neutral scripts* for when my manager says things like, “you got dressed nice and pretty for me today!” or “you put lipstick on for me today!”

    If she’d phrase it like, “You look nice today!” I’d say thanks and move on. But the way she words her compliments (as if I’m dressing for HER) flummoxes me.

    *Yes I know it’s weird and inappropriate. It’s not safe for me to push back, even mildly (she’s extremely reactive and we’re in the middle of rolling layoffs and I need money to pay rent or I’ll be homeless). No I will not be going to HR.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Agreed.

        In your head, “yes” = “I acknowledge that you said something to me that I guess you think is a compliment but is actually creepy, but I’m not going to waste my time and energy addressing that with you, you crazy so-and-so.”

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      While not pushing back directly, I think “I did it for me” would be a way to show her that she has nothing to do with your choice.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Agree- something like “I love this color on me” or “This is my favorite dress!” if it feels too confrontational to explicitly say she had nothing to do with your choices.

        Say it in an upbeat way that keeps the conversation pleasant, but don’t preface with a “yes”-type verbal linker. And immediately change the subject.

    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      Ouch, that would make me uncomfortable too.

      It’s a pretty weird thing to say.

      Since you can’t push back, I’d just say thanks and move on.

      I guess you could say something like “thank you! I dress like this/try to make myself look nice/enjoy looking nice for myself and not other people, but it’s always nice/fun when others appreciate your efforts!”

      But if she’s very sensitive, I might not think it was worth the risk. You’d need to be so delicate that it probably wouldn’t be worth the effort in the end.

        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          If it was a man, I’d feel like it was sexual harassment.

          (Which shows my bias. So to be fair, I have to say that it seems like sexual harassment.)

          2. FashionablyEvil*

            I don’t think the fact that it’s from a woman makes it any better/not harassment. It’s gross.

    5. CherryBlossom*

      Oof, I’ve been in that boat, of not feeling safe to build or enforce *any* boundaries because the need for money/security supersedes all else. You have nothing but my utmost sympathies.

      As for neutral scripts, whenever I had to deal with people and comments like that, I usually just pulled out my fake “office laugh” and went about my business. Sounds nice, without having to actually express gratitude for a creepy sentiment.

    6. chocolate muffins*

      For me personally, saying “thanks” to something inappropriate that made me feel uncomfortable would feel like … thanking someone for doing something inappropriate that made me feel uncomfortable … which I would not want to do (though if you do, great!). I might go with something like “okay” to show that I had heard but without giving further endorsement/agreement to the comment.

    7. Hyaline*

      If it’s not safe to push back at all, scripts won’t help you. If you can say *something* and you’d feel better saying something, respond with a thanks plus “I feel better about my day with a little lipstick on!” or “This dress makes me feel happy!” or something else that acknowledges what she said and emphasizes that you dress FOR YOU without actually saying those words. But if it’s really not safe, it’s not safe, and this isn’t worth torching your day with a hyper-reactive weirdo over it.

      Also, yes this is weird. And icky. And I’m sorry.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I would translate it into why I have actually chosen to wear it: “Oh this is my contrary weather dress”, “The SPF is great on these new lipsticks”, “It’s so comfy, actually!” “I love anything magenta, I want to be buried in it”

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Whilst thinking “or attend your funeral in it.”

        Which you would NEVER EVER say aloud of course.

    9. GoosieLou*

      I could imagine a playful deflection (“aw, Barb, I put on lipstick for everyone, we all need more fuschia in our Wednesdays!”) a redirect to the truth (“Yep, I dressed up for the company!”) or a slightly pointier redirect if you can say it breezily enough (“Oh, Barb, it would be a big HR concern if I were getting dressed up just for you, but I’m glad you like it!”)

    10. Admin of Sys*

      You could just constantly redirect away from the possessiveness of it?
      “Thanks, my friends and I are checking out a restaurant tonight”
      “Thanks, I have a meeting with a client at 3”
      Just constant ‘thanks, ‘.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I would not do this. Any mention of a social thing, and she’ll try to invite herself. Our current manager is that type of person.

    11. Cardboard Marmalade*

      Does it feel too friendly to respond in a kinda diagonal way, as though you were both just saying meaningless pleasantries? Like she said something about your makeup and you just vaguely say, “Nice to see you too!”

    12. Unkempt Flatware*

      Good God! That’s a really upsetting thing to hear from a boss. I hate to say that if it were me, I’d stop dressing up and wearing makeup. How freaking sad is that? I once had a boss come around the corner into my cubical to find me leaning over my desk trying to untangle cords and he said, “Oh! Unkempt! Don’t bend over like that in front of me!” in a gross objective way. I didn’t have the control to stop myself from spitting out, “OR WHAT?!” and he literally ran out of my office. Luckily I was in a government setting and would have had to beat him with a closed fist to get in any trouble there.

    13. Observer*

      I agree with the person who said that scripts are not going to really make a difference.

      The thing that is most likely to help you is to start seriously looking for a job. You probably won’t find one right away, but knowing that you are doing SOMETHING to get away from this is a lot more empowering than trying to find the magic words to keep a jerk from being a jerk.

      I’m curious, though. Why not go to HR? Is it because HR is a dumpster fire? Or something else.

  27. Anon for This*

    When I came on board four years ago, I inherited a problem employee, Bob. Bob is a subject matter expert in his niche field, but Bob has…. issues. He is extremely controlling, he can be vindictive, he is rude and combative when given any feedback that isn’t 100% positive, and won’t take responsibility for his mistakes. He also has very little self-awareness and constantly makes assumptions that are not based in reality, and then operates as if they are true.

    I noticed this right away, but when I tried to address issues in real time, Bob became hostile to me and complained to my boss. Instead of shutting him down and reinforcing my role as his manager, my boss told Bob he was right, and then told me to appease Bob in any way possible since we “needed” his expertise and because at some point before I managed him, Bob had told my boss he planned to retire within two years.

    Well fast forward four years and… Bob has not retired. Bob has never even MENTIONED the thought of retiring the entire time I have been his manager. In the meantime, his behavior has gotten worse and worse, and I am at the end of my rope.

    One of the things I have been tasked with doing is expanding our department into a new line of business. This doesn’t affect Bob’s work, he still manages his program, but our culture is one where you’re expected to help out with small things outside of your regular job as needed (i.e. “other duties as assigned”).

    Earlier this week, I asked Bob to do one minor task to help with the new line of business. We work a hybrid schedule, and it was a WFH day. I asked via email and Bob did not respond. I followed up with a second email the next day, and asked for him to confirm by the end of the day that the task had been done, and he did not respond or acknowledge the request a second time. When we got to the office the next day, I asked him in person to confirm the task had been done, and he exploded at me, essentially refusing to do the task unless I put it in writing that it was required. I did this, and also outlined the expectations about communication and professionalism, and BCC’ed my boss on the email. 

    After seeing the email and hearing about this my boss finally agreed that his behavior is a problem and I should address it. But it’s been four years! Is there a way to effectively address issues that have gone on this long without a change in management? (I have actually been job hunting because of the Bob situation, but not getting much movement on my applications.)

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Have a meeting with your manager. Ask them how they see “addressing it” actually going. You could remind them that this situation is the tip of the iceberg related to Bob, and while you are absolutely able to address this particular situation, this is a symptom of a much larger problem. See what they say. Given the lack of attention Bob’s problematic behavior has gotten from management, you really need buy-in because this seems like a first step on a path to termination.

      1. Anon for This*

        Thank you! I will definitely do this. And yes the only way I can see it going is ending with “quit or be fired”…

      2. M2*

        I agree with all of this but I also think if he refuses to answer emails or acknowledge when he is WFH then take away that perk or make it clear if he doesn’t be reply to messages asking for a response by X time then he will have to work from the office.

        Loop in your manager, HR, and put him on a PIP. Honestly it sounds like he should be let go, but if he’s older HR can get scared if age discrimination lawsuit so write all examples of major issues with him and ask HR and your manager to put him in a PIP.

        Get everything in writing and if it’s meeting have someone else there with you and write up meeting notes right away.

        What organizations don’t realize as you loose the best people when you let low performers and those with anger issues stay, promote them, or don’t do anything to let them go.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      It sounds like they largely want you to appease Bob and keep him happy so that they can continue to benefit from his expertise. If that’s the case, then you’re the expendable person in this scenario.

      Talking to your boss makes sense, but I’d see how far your boss is willing to go. Could be, your boss isn’t willing to punish Bob for misbehaving. If so, you have minimal leverage.

      1. Anon for This*

        Boss has already acknowledged Bob’s behavior as a problem that needs to be addressed. I’m just not sure how productive trying to address it will be at this point.

        1. Kathenus*

          While it’s a good step that your boss has acknowledged the problem needs to be addressed, you might want to have an honest conversation with your boss about whether or not they also support terminating him if Bob is unwilling to change. Because I could, unfortunately, envision a scenario where your boss wants you to change it but won’t support a tough decision down the road, and then you could be in an even worse case because Bob would then learn that there are no real consequences. Hopefully your boss will back this all the way if needed, but if it was me I’d have that frank discussion with the boss first to make sure. Then follow up summarizing the conversation in an email to your boss so you have that for your files. Good luck.

        2. M2*

          Why is he still allowed to WFH if he doesn’t reply to messages? At my organization if you aren’t at a certain standing you are not allowed to WFH. It’s clear in the policy and your manager can revoke it (but also loop in HR so as not to be retaliatory and give people a little notice).

          I wanted to put someone on a PIP who basically didn’t work maybe did 20-25% if their job only. I talked with them, wrote them up, but when it came time for a PIP my manager and HR said no because they were worried about a lawsuit(?!) this person was not over a certain age. They ended up switching departments but that department head didn’t reach out to me for a reference, and this person was so bad that then the head left! It’s really infuriating and a real morale killer for all of us that actually do work. I’m actively looking in part because of this!

    3. Kay*

      Echoing the other comments to say that not only do you need to have a discussion with your manager – you need to have them on board with the plan for how to handle this.

      You are right that this will likely be a “quit or be fired” situation, as I don’t know Bob will actually change – but you need to be absolutely sure that everyone needed to be on board for a firing is in fact on board, how you would handle replacing him if he does quit in a fit of rage, etc.

      Ask yourself – can you get by without his knowledge, how quickly could you hire a replacement, do you need to take steps prior to talking to him in order to protect certain company data/get somebody trained, is grandboss going to shut you down? As for how to talk to him when you get all of the above ironed out – I would probably go with something like “I know this hasn’t been addressed in the past but this is a change that is being implemented effective immediately. We need to see X behavior from you going forward, is this something you can commit to?” and see what he says.

      1. Anon for This*

        Thank you! I will absolutely do this. I too highly doubt that Bob will change. One thing I left out is that my own boss started and finished an MBA program since they initially told me to keep Bob happy. It’s definitely changed their perspective and I think one of the reasons I am being allowed to manage him now. And boss is the CEO so I don’t have to worry about someone above them :)

    4. Random Academic Cog*

      Have had similar situations (myself and as an observer). I get that it feels like it’s not worth pursuing when someone is a year or two from retirement and you’d rather end on a positive note in recognition of when they actually did a good job, even if it was a while back. But when you are tolerating them rather than appreciating them and they don’t leave, it’s an entirely different ballgame.

      The first thing I did after my Bob didn’t retire when they said they would was to review the existing job description. As processes changed, the actual work required also changed, but we’d given up on trying to make Bob learn new ways of doing things. At the end Bob had about half of a job, but still with full time pay. I looped in Bob’s dotted-line supervisor and we went through all the tasks that would legitimately fall under the existing job description and developed a plan to require that Bob learn all of the new processes if the new retirement date was pushed off again. We were pretty certain Bob wouldn’t be able to get to a proficient level, at which point we would have started the PIP route. But if Bob had stayed and reached proficiency, that would also be fine because the burden on everyone else would still be less. Fortunately, Bob didn’t push it off again, though I’ll admit that the dotted-line supervisor was getting more visibly irritated by the end and likely had something to do with that decision.

      When I’ve been a bystander, it’s also gone similarly. Basically holding people who have been coasting with minimal pressure for years to a similar standard as less-tenured employees. We’ve lost people with specialized knowledge (that they wouldn’t share in a misguided attempt to be indispensable), but we’ve figured out how to move forward in every case.

      Good luck to you!

  28. Elevator Elevator*

    I quit my job because all of my coworkers quit and, after giving my employers more than enough time to right the ship, it became clear that they never would. The workload was unsustainable and I left. As a reason, it’s somehow both open and shut (everyone quit! I wasn’t the problem) and a can of worms because there’s clearly a story there (everyone quit! What is going ON there?).

    I’ve been workshopping my answer to the “why did you leave?” question. I’m inclined to vague it up a little bit for hiring managers so it doesn’t invite follow-up questions in the same way, but I’m not too worried about getting “wait, what’s so awful about Company?” questions from someone who probably at least partially wants to know in case they’re ever asked to fill one of Company’s frequent vacancies.

    Am I right in thinking I can be more candid with an external recruiter than I would be with a hiring manager? (For context, these are recruiters who contacted me about positions I’m not necessarily sold on. I’d be more cautious with a recruiter who was filling a position I really wanted.)

    1. postdooc*

      Is there a reason why you need to get into it at all? While it is a very valid reason to leave a job, bringing negativity into the job interview (however warranted) has more risks than reward. Can you just say ‘I was looking for more opportunities to work on X or Y’ or ‘Due to some changes at [Company], my actual work was changing substantially from job description, so I’m very excited to look at jobs doing X’

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think if you say something along the lines of “a few of my coworkers left and [company] had no plans to refill those positions, and my workload was unsustainable when I had to do my original job plus the other jobs,” that threads the needle of “open and shut” and avoids “can of worms.” It’s true, but doesn’t have the “what is going on there??” hook that “all of my coworkers quit” does.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I get the temptation to be feel safer being candid with external recruiters, but I wouldn’t do it – they very well might relay what you said to the hiring manager, and the game of telephone might even make you sound more petty/dramatic/etc than you really did. You’ll need a canned answer for hiring managers anyway, use that with recruiters.

  29. Extra anon today*

    My company has announced a policy I’m calling “RTO Lite”. Starting next week, cameras are to be on in all meetings, all the time. Management has decided that there isn’t enough engagement and interactivity in meetings and this will totally fix it.

    Part of the announcement goes:

    “In the US, on Monday, we celebrate Labor Day, which was established to recognize the hard work and dedication of individuals who have played a crucial role in shaping our economy and improving working conditions. What better way to show our appreciation for our fellow colleagues than to turn on our cameras and smile, frown, or just shrug your shoulders.”

    …I can think of a few ways. Like, if you want more engagement in meetings, encourage people to learn how to run better meetings.

    Can anyone who’s lived through a policy like this give me some tips on how to cope with it?

    1. Elsewise*

      Suuuuper tone deaf to attach that announcement to labor day!

      You mention coping and not pushing back, so I will say one thing that’s been helpful to me is to really practice my “neutrally pleasant” expression. With my camera on it’s just like practicing in a mirror, except you can’t make faces at yourself. I also find it helpful to knit or do something else to keep my hands busy so my face can be more neutral.

      Don’t put too much pressure on yourself to always be looking into the camera, no one else is. If you have multiple monitors and sometimes will be visibly looking away from the computer, you can call it out the first time you meet with someone. “Just so you know, my notes for this meeting are in my other monitor, so if I seem to be looking away, I’m still paying attention.”

      If it gets too overwhelming and you absolutely can’t be on camera a certain day, you can always claim internet issues. Don’t do it every time, and probably not for the first week or so of the new policy, but doing that occasionally will probably go unnoticed.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Ugh. We have a “cameras-on” policy that is really annoying in large meetings. (I’m fine with it in groups of about 5 or less.)

      I always blur my background (it works better than those background pics). And our standard is that you shouldn’t have to be on camera if you’re eating lunch, etc.

      But we always have glitches with large meetings, because it’s just not practical on any level for 50-odd people to have their camera on at the same time. (I’d rather just the speaker did, which is how some areas hold their bigger meetings, and totally makes sense.)

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      Cope with what exactly? It sounds like you can still WFH, just with the camera on. It doesn’t sound so bad to me but I do most of my calls w/camera on already

      1. NaoNao*

        To me, it’s the implications looming behind the “cameras on at all times during meetings” edict. It implies a couple things: faces appearing to be engaged is more important than actual engagement (talking, chatting in the IM thread, taking notes, following up, etc), which is always a let down as it then in turn implies that “butts in seats” and face time is more important than work product, and that the company has spent time and energy thinking about ways to control and monitor WFH because on some level, they don’t trust their employees are truly engaged and participating in meetings. And instead of doing a root cause analysis as to why that is, they’ve slapped a bandaid on this issue, one that feels punitive and controlling.

      2. Extra anon today*

        I don’t mind being on camera if it’s a meeting where I have something to contribute and can actively participate, but unfortunately that doesn’t cover most of my meetings. Most of the time the camera is just going to be sapping the attention and energy that I could be putting into actual work.

    4. The Unionizer Bunny*

      “In the US, on Monday, we celebrate Labor Day, which was established to recognize the hard work and dedication of individuals who have played a crucial role in shaping our economy and improving working conditions. What better way to show our appreciation for our fellow colleagues than to turn on our cameras and smile, frown, or just shrug your shoulders.”

      I love how they carefully omit from this description all mention of the unions who created Labor Day – a president officially declared it a national holiday over a decade later (and only when he needed to preserve support from working-class voters), this wasn’t invented by one person at the top.

      What better way? How about asking all of your colleagues how they would prefer to be shown appreciation? Since you’re all working remotely this isn’t a “put up flyers in the break room asking for feedback” situation, but if you’re all working remotely there may be even easier ways of communicating.

      “In the US, we celebrate Labor Day, which was organized by Labor Unions to argue that the people who do the work should have more say in how it gets done. What better way to honor the rights they earned for us all than to exercise those very rights by checking in with each other about how each of us, as individuals, prefer to be shown appreciation?”

      Even if your workplace isn’t unionized, you still have the right to engage in concerted action to improve your working conditions. And, more importantly, you have the right to listen to each other instead of management on what those improvements ARE. Don’t let managers tell you “oh, everyone else wants this – not the people you’ve spoken with, but lots of other people”. That’s an appeal to popularity (aka a logical fallacy) and you have the right to compare notes with your coworkers directly. (And if they aren’t working with you, you’ll never be in a meeting together so there’s no justification for insisting that their preference dictate your camera.) Ask people in the meetings to create that very “interactivity and engagement” management wants. If nobody wants to see other people’s faces, propose that everyone keeps their cameras turned off as a sign of respect for coworkers’ actual wants.

      Practically speaking, expressions can be ambiguous. Wear a two-layer white mask. The top layer has very well-drawn, distinct emotional “faces” on it. Switch between them as appropriate. The layer closer to your face is for when you don’t have any particular emotional response to convey.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        I work in a heavily unionized field, and this portrayal of “now now the word from the top has come down because we’re celebrating labor day” would SO not fly here. I pity the writer who puts something like that on paper around here…

    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Can you be more specific about what you think will be hard that you’ll need to cope with?
      Because if camera off means you’re doing other work during the meeting and now you can’t do that, or you’re running down the hall to switch laundry during a meeting and now you can’t do that, then the cameras on to increase engagement might actually work to get people to focus on the meeting.
      So maybe you cope by being more engaged with the meeting?

      1. Extra anon today*

        I’d be happy to cope that way if we had the sort of meetings where there was anything to engage with.

      2. ScruffyInternHerder*

        Being on camera means I have to police my facial expressions, which depending on the meeting, can be a lot.

        1. JustaTech*

          Yes, this. Or I get distracted by my own face on the screen and miss something someone else is saying.
          Some people (not everyone) find being on-camera when they’re not speaking to be as exhausting as maintaining direct eye contact for extended periods.

          Also having to police my facial expressions when email notifications pop up when I’m in a meeting is annoying (and to answer the question: don’t you have to do that in in-person meetings? No, because I almost never have my laptop open in an in-person meeting because it is too distracting for me.)

      3. Arrietty*

        Forcing me to have my camera on because management want to see engaged faces is a great way to make sure that I’m actually less engaged, because I will find myself focusing on what my face is doing and not listening.

    7. DrSalty*

      Can you specify what exactly about this you need to “cope” with?

      I take almost all my calls with cameras on. It’s not that bad, in fact is better for smaller calls to see the person’s face while you’re having a conversation. I use a virtual background always and that’s key imo. That way no one can tell if you’re moving around locations or your room is dirty or whatever.

      If you’re looking for a way to still multitask in boring calls where you don’t really have to contribute but still appear on camera, then the secret is put the window on the same monitor as your camera so it looks like you’re looking at the camera while you check email or whatever.

      If you’re in a big call and not talking, odds are no one is going to be paying attention to you at all, so don’t stress about it.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        “It’s not that bad” – this varies WIDELY from person to person. Some people love it, some people hate it. Lucky you that you don’t mind, but many other people would indeed not be happy with the mandate and feel the need to find coping mechanisms, and that’s even leaving aside the bad messaging.

        1. DrSalty*

          Again, what exactly do you need to cope with? Looking at yourself? Some programs let you minimize yours own video. Drag a window over your video. Or is it something else? Then maybe other solutions are appropriate. More detail would be helpful.

          I was sharing how I cope, which is use a virtual background.

          1. allathian*

            Doing something mindless, like knitting or doodling on a piece of paper helps lots of people focus on the meeting.

            We have cameras on at most meetings and I’m fine with that because there’s no expectation of looking at the camera constantly.

          2. Pocket Mouse*

            I’m not Extra Anon Today, but for me, I think it has to do with people potentially looking at me/examining my face and expression at any and all times. For in-person meetings, people only really look at me when I’m speaking or expected to speak; there are other people speaking or notes to write or something that has our shared attention to break it up. With camera on, it feels like I have to be “on” at all times, and I just don’t have the energy for that, especially because I’d gotten less careful with my mouth after years of wearing masks, and especially with multiple on-camera meetings in a day.

            TBH here are tons of articles from the last few years about why being on camera is more draining than in-person or off camera. I see that you’re asking Extra Anon Today for their experience so you can give more tailored advice and that’s great, but when you said “it’s not that bad” it sounded like you meant it as a blanket statement that applies to anyone, which I pushed back on because what works for you isn’t what most people who find this stressful are talking about.

    8. Almost A Shrimp*

      My employer tried to do this, but we’re a very anti-camera bunch, so we…just didn’t do it. It never came up again.

    9. Bitte Meddler*

      My last company had a “cameras on” policy. I dealt with it by arranging my screens so that I could place a Word doc such that it covered my face (so I didn’t have to see myself) and then type notes of what was being said in the Word doc.

      90% of the time I never needed those notes and just deleted the file after the meeting. But concentrating on keeping my typos to a minimum made me look like I was concentrating on the meeting.

  30. Excel Gardener*

    I’ve been at my current job for just a year, and I was originally planning on being in this role for 2-3 years, but I’ve been feeling increasingly dissatisfied with aspects of it. The pay is ok but not great (I suspect I could make 10%-20% more elsewhere, though I’m not completely sure about that), and despite getting “exceeds expectations” on my performance review I only got a COLA, not a real raise. More importantly, I’ve come to realize that the broader department I’m in is underfunded and behind the times in terms of technology and best practices. Thus, I worry that I’m not getting experience in the skills I will need to take the next step in my career.

    But on the other hand, I like my boss, I rarely have to work overtime, there’s no toxicity or drama, it’s 90% WFH, the health insurance is very good, and I’m good at what I do. And I don’t want to be seen as a job hopper (though I was at my last job for 3 years, so maybe I shouldn’t worry?). I feel like the conventional wisdom is you should plan on staying at least two years unless a job is truly awful.

    Should I stick this job out for another year or two? Or should I start searching for a new role now?

    1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

      Can’t hurt to start searching now. It’s possible that it would take a year to get an offer for a role that had the perks of the one you have now, plus the ones that it doesn’t.

    2. M2*

      Only apply for roles you will take and if you get another job I think you’ll need to stay a minimum if 3 years or longer.

      As a manager if I saw 3 years then 1 year (unless it’s clearly a temporary role or consultancy) I would hope/ expect the next job to be a minimum of 3 years. This doesn’t include if you’re promoted which is always good. Everyine has had to leave roles early but it’s the pattern (if it happens frequently/ in a row) that is concerning to a hiring manager.

      I’m clearly not always the norm. I had a role up and so many applicants had multiple ones for 2 years or less. I couldn’t believe people had been hired after clearly job hopping! I didn’t interview any of the candidates who had 3-4+ 2 years and less on a resume. I know some were actually phone screened but HR screened them out.

      I don’t mind seeing 1 or 2 on a resume or 3 if they are far apart and understand the Covid era so take that into account too. So only apply for roles you really want and be selective because you have a decent thing now and for all you know hiring might take awhile. That’s my advise but honestly do what is best for YOU. Maybe decide what you want in a role and go from there.

  31. bamcheeks*

    Question that came up at work recently: four years ago, during the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests, we saw lots of companies and organisations having an “oh we must get better at this” moment. Has anyone got any examples of really and meaningful change?

    2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Some departments in my university made small but meaningful changes, such as:
      Some did away with costly standardized entry exams not directly relevant to the program that unfairly advantaged wealthier applicants or ones who did well on standard tests. Some departments did more targeted recruitment from and mentoring for members of historically underrepresented groups. Some did various kinds of informative or allyship-building activities.

      But we’re a public university in one of those states whose state-level politics were not great in 2020 and have regressed markedly since, so ongoing efforts have lost some momentum as the state threatens administrative sanctions. People look at what FL did with New College and get very risk-averse.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      I think that the whole 2020 BLM movement really shot itself in the foot by having absolutely zero quality control when it came to the specific ideas and messages it proposed, so good ideas that probably 60-75% of people in general would have supported got overwhelmed by really odd and counterproductive ideas that maybe 15% of the country supported. For example, people really got into Robin DiAngelo, seemingly because she suggested racism could best be fought by doing lots and lots of workshops, even though I wouldn’t say her ideas have stood up very well. (Recently, she got busted for plagiarizing Black scholars in her academic work). Similarly, a lot of the organizations that got a lot of donations turned out to be very poor stewards of that money.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I don’t think I’d agree that it wad BLM‘s responsibility to come up with solutions. The protests identified the problems: the people protesting did not have the power to fix the problems. That’s on the power structures.

        1. Stuart Foote*

          I mean if people are going to advocate for change it would help to suggest solutions and advocate for them. It would also be helpful to push back against bad solutions like the crap Robin DiAngelo was selling or the organizations that basically stole the donations they got.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I don’t see how this is Black Lives Matter’s fault that a lot of orgs got into Robin DiAngelo…

      3. Justin*

        I would say that’s not the movement’s fault but a few individuals within it. The movement was genuine, and people grifted off of it.

    4. Justin*

      The reality is this: the companies that really cared, cared before that, and still care. My company has diverse leadership, and doesn’t require certain exclusionary credentials (eg years of experience can substitute for degrees), and it works.

      Other companies never really cared so they gave up.

    5. EVOOlution*

      The organization I work for is (still) in the process of changing application requirements for the many competitive grants it offers, to rate grant applications on the equity of their work, on how they represent/engage/serve diverse communities, and the inclusiveness of their programs. This started from an official workplace anti-racism workgroup in 2020 where many of us asked, essentially, “we fund communities; where is the money going and is it fair?”
      It’s taking some tweaks to incorporate DE&I in grant scoring rubrics in ways that encourage meaningful, structural components of programs (not token hiring, or charity on the side, or lip service). This remains a work in progress! But serious money is at stake, and it matters!

    6. fhqwhgads*

      There are 4x as many POC employees where I work than there were in 2020. So, that’s something.

  32. postdooc*

    How do you deal with phone distractions during the workday? I am (admittedly) a bit addicted to my phone, but I really want to avoid using it during the day. However, I can’t just fully turn it on mute or leave it in my bag, since I need to use it for two-factor authentification. In addition, my boss is very scatterbrained, and tends to text or call at random times during the day, which I have to respond.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So which apps/features are the ones that really suck up your time?
      Social media?
      Texting w/ friends, relatives, etc?
      Games?

      There are site/app blockers you can install, then configure for you needs. Eg, prevent you from using Twitter from 9-5.

      1. postdooc*

        There’s a lot that suck up time, ranging from videos to games to social media… I’ve even found myself scrolling Zillow as a procrastination tool. I’ve tried going cold turkey (deleting any irrelevant app), but I find myself circumventing when possible, or even changing the settings. For example, I deleted twitter from my phone, but I opened via the web browser. Or I successfully stopped watching instagram reels, but would then open youtube on the browser.

    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      iPhones have a function where you can set special Home Screens with only certain apps for different focus modes.

      Could you do something like that and only have the absolute essential apps there?

      Or use one of the apps that block certain apps during certain times? Like Freedom for example.

      1. postdooc*

        I definitely did not know about this. Just set a focus mode with a location setting for my office and a focus mode with location setting for my apartment. Is there a way in there to specifically block opening certain apps while in a focus mode, or just notifications?

        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          I think you need to use a third party app for that.

          I did some quick googling and found an app called Opal that seems to be able to do exactly that.

          I googled “How to block apps with iPhone Focus Mode”.

          I’ve never used that app though so I don’t know anything about its quality.

    3. HonorBox*

      Hide any of the apps that are distractions. I had to do this when I was getting distracted at home by games. Put them in a folder and (if iPhone) put it on the next screen over so you have to swipe to get there. Having them less accessible can be beneficial, and having to swipe to get to them gives your brain a chance to think “do I need to be doing this right now?”

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      are there either settings (screen time, I think is the Apple version) or third-party apps that you can use to block certain apps, so that you can only access your 2FA and texts/phone calls?

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Can you set “do not disturb” on your phone, with your boss’s number allowed to ring through? That way you won’t be distracted by pings and calls from friends/family/random apps.

      You’ll have to turn off “do not disturb” every time you need to do 2FA, which could be anywhere from a little annoying to a lot annoying depending on how many times you need 2FA in the course of a normal workday. And you’ll see all the missed messages/calls from everyone else during the brief window, but it might be easier to ignore during a few discrete windows of the day rather than trying to white-knuckle your way through ignoring calls and texts for 8 hours.

    6. Reba*

      My Samsung phone has modes settings that allow you to very granularly allow/disallow selected apps. So I can switch off the browser & socials while leaving on email, messages and authentication etc. You can set it for scheduled times.

    7. Alex*

      Not sure if this would work for you, but I have an apple watch that has proven quite useful in this regard. I have a job where I’m both not *allowed* to be on my phone, but also my boss texts me with important information sometimes. I have another job where I have to use 2-factor authentication.

      I kind of have the opposite problem where I am scatterbrained about my phone and often forget where I set it down (“where did I put my phone?” is probably going to be engraved on my tombstone). With the watch, as long as my phone is somewhat nearby, I can read texts, decline or answer calls, and use two-factor authentication without taking my phone out at all…..or knowing exactly which pocket in my backpack I put it in lol. It also helps me locate my phone….

      1. postdooc*

        Honestly, that’s not a bad idea. Just one tool that can ONLY do the 2FA & calls, with no other options, and can keep my phone in my bag.

      2. Mad Scientist*

        I was going to suggest the same thing (and I have the same problem about never knowing where my phone is lol)

        My smart watch has made MFA so much easier, and I mute notifications for most apps, but I can still see if I get an important text or call that needs a response.

        1. Ellen*

          Same for me though I have a work phone that I believe is monitored (no idea if that’s true but I believe it and I’ve never bothered to disprove it – Fortune 200 company our tech is pretty locked down) and a personal phone. Personal phone is on silent and in a different room.

    8. Rara Avis*

      My phone stays in my bag in the closet. My fitbit buzzes if I get a call or text, and I can see if I need to respond. (I don’t get called or texted for work, so it would only be an emergency call from a family member that I would need to pick up.) If I need to use it for 2FA, I pull it out and then put it back again.

  33. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I would like to hear people’s stories of Procedures Defeating The Purpose. My example: I worked as a data analyst (really a glorified data entry clerk) at a firm that provided financial reporting to various clients (banks and loan agencies and suchlike.) These reports would go by file feed directly from our server to the client in the middle of the night. So an actual management person (salaried) would be tapped to be on-call on a rotating basis to make sure the server stayed up. There was a pager they passed around, and the pager would go off if something went wrong, and the on-call person would have to go to our office after hours to reset things.
    So they hire a new management person and set her up with the pager and the expectations and everything. BUT for your first 90 days, you’re in your probationary period. So they *don’t* give her a key to the building, or the security code to get in, or anything that would actually enable her to, y’know, DO that part of the job. You only get full access to that stuff after you pass the 90 days. But they still give her the pager and the on-call shifts!
    And sure enough, the pager goes off in the middle of the night, and she dutifully goes down to the building, and she can’t get in. And she can’t get security to let her in because she doesn’t know the passcode. And so she has to call Real Manager to come down and rescue her and introduce her to the security people and reset the technology. And meanwhile the stupid pager is still going off.
    I was a mere data entry clerk, but even I could see that if part of a person’s job was to get into the building after hours, they’d need the ability to do that, and if you didn’t trust them for it, then…excuse them from that portion of the role until you do?
    I don’t recall if they decided to just give her access, or if they decided to not have her do on-call until after the 90 days—that place was weird and it could have gone either way.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I still remember a phone menu for the Help Desk at oldjob that told people they could go to their Controller of Data for password resets and could look up who their COD was in the intranet. Which, of course, you couldn’t access if your password wasn’t working. (That information seems like they should have created a pathway in the phone menu for CODs. And people were really bad at keeping the intranet up to date, so no guarantees you got the right name if you had someone else look it up for you.)

    2. Angstrom*

      Levels of approval for purchases: At a previous job all purchase requisitions needed to be approved by someone one level up. So my boss might need his boss’s approval to buy something, but he could have me write the requisition and then approve it himself.

      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        Ha! That’s how we managed travel at my old company. The lower people would put most stuff on their company cards (with us manager’s approval and knowledge) and us managers would approve it – leaving the Director out of it and avoiding a 20 minute conversation on WHY the need to buy a bottle of water at the airport during a 4 hr layover. Don’t they have water fountains? Can’t you have saved the empty water bottle from the first plane and filled it up? How much do you really need to drink when you’re just sitting around?

    3. Hanani*

      I went to a religious college that had visiting hours for when men could be in the women’s dorms and women could be in the men’s dorms (as far as the college was concerned non-binary and queer people did not exist). RAs would do rounds and rotate on-call shifts for multiple dorms, to spread the burden.

      One male RA broke a rule and the punishment was to have their visiting hours privileges rescinded for some period of time, so they weren’t allowed to be in the female dorms. But they still had to do their rounds/be on call, so the solution was for a second RA to do everything with them. Why they didn’t just take this person off the rotation during their punishment and give them some additional shifts later is beyond me.

    4. pally*

      For a time, we rented out a number of our offices to the business next door (they were growing; we were not). They populated these rental offices with their engineers.

      My boss trusted us such that each employee had a key to the doors and an alarm code. We could come and go as we needed to. He provided the manager of the engineers with keys for each one. And a code for the alarm as well.

      With greater frequency, the engineers would work late. When they left for the day, I would be ‘hunted down’ to lock the door behind them (even though I was still working). Not a big deal; however, sometimes this interrupted my lab experiments at critical time points. Why not use the keys my boss issued to them and lock the door themselves?

      Turns out, for the security of their company, it is their policy that no one below the title of manager was to possess keys to the work site. Any work site. As a result, their manager had kept all the keys and the alarm code to himself. But he also never hung around for all of the engineers to leave to lock up behind them. He never even asked who was locking things up at the end of the day. Security, huh?

    5. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Ooh I have another one. This one is in the category Stupid Call Center Tricks.

      So, as we all know, call centers are notoriously finicky about time usage—when you’re supposed to be on the phones, you have to be doing phone things; when you’re supposed to be on break, you have to be on break; etc. If for some reason you are off the phones during Phone Time, most call centers have a procedure for how to document what you were doing, so that (a) if it was authorized a legit use of the time, your stats don’t get dinged, and (b) even if it wasn’t, they can collate the data so they can figure out how to best allocate resources (Are most of our agents spending too much time doing Stupid Task X that we maybe could pull one whole person off the phones to do all at once/ do we need to hire more people/ or do we need to fire That One Guy, etc) (and yes, most call centers genuinely try to use this information for good, they aren’t really trying to screw their employees.)

      Anywho, there I was working in this call center that had recently been acquired by a different company that had different procedures and hierarchies and stuff, and there was major culture clash. The big company had a bunch of processes that were automated and made it easy for the agents to file schedule exceptions. The smaller company was accustomed to just giving everybody a few minutes of extra project time each day, set aside in their schedules, for them to do all that off-call stuff. There were political reasons why the automated system wasn’t allowed to be pushed out to the acquired company. Similarly, there were also political reasons why the project time was no longer allowed. So now, the agents in Small Company had to learn to fill out exception forms, which were then turned in to their supervisors, which were then sent on to WFM.

      Everyone hated this. The agents hated filling out the dumb form, the supervisors hated having to handle the stuff (and kept trying to approve it, which was no longer part of their role in New Company), the Workforce Ops people hated having to keep bugging the supervisors for missing data, it was a mess. The supervisors pissed and moaned. Finally a compromise was reached. We created a form using Excel that you’d keep on your desktop and fill in as you went through your day. At the end of the day, you’d email this straight to WFM.

      Well, apparently, for a nontrivial number of people, learning to fill in an Excel form was toooo haaaard (even though we filled in online forms all day long in the course of our duties, our punch clock was an online form, we used four different types of systems for data entry of various kinds, but Excel was A Bridge Too Far). So the solution for the supervisors of those particular agents was…[pause] [profound sigh] [thousand-yard stare] to print out the form, cut it into individual entry slips, have the agents fill out the slips, hand them back in, and *manually retype all the information for every agent on their team*. Because apparently this was easier than teaching them that the required thing is required and you have to learn to do the required thing (something they’d successfully transmitted in re: literally every other computer-based function we had.)

    6. Nightengale*

      My giant health system has “put the patient first” and “seeing people as individuals” as stated core values and yet defeats these at every turn.

      One that is impacting me the most is their removal of separate new and follow up patient slots. In theory this improves access. In practice, if the schedule is overfull with new patients, when are we supposed to see the follow-ups?

      I also had a dedicated telehealth from home day once a week. Lately, fewer patients were wanting video visits so my office manager and I agreed to change some of these to office days. She had to get permission from someone 2 levels up because changing the visit type was “limiting access” that had to be authorized.

  34. Pork Roll*

    I’m pretty unhappy at my current job (a niche area of higher ed admin). We have a new VP who seems pretty lukewarm about my work performance regardless of any data that I show them or whatever praise others tell him. Our org chart also changed when the VP started so I’m now reporting to someone lower in seniority who I’m not terribly fond of (disorganized and a micromanager). Note that I’m not worried about my current job, I’m union plus my manager thinks I’m indispensable.

    I’m currently in the running for a new job that would be a step up in pay and responsibility, plus I know from several sources that it has a really good work culture. In addition, my current employer is only in so-so financial shape (not in danger of going bankrupt but there are some big budget challenges) and the prospective employer is much more financially stable. The huge downside is the commute would be an hour each way without traffic (for context I live in New Jersey so there will likely be traffic). I would say 45 min each way is kind of my limit and it did not go well when I had a longer commute in the past.

    But again, I’m in a niche field so it’s not an employee’s job market and I’m pretty unhappy at my current job that won’t change. Any thoughts? Advice? Warnings? (and I recognize I’m putting the cart before the horse but I’m really torn on this so I want to start thinking about it now).

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      Personally I wouldn’t. 45 minutes rural driving, absolutely . 45 minutes city driving, sustainable for a while. Over an hour in city traffic, no. From what I remember of New Jersey traffic, absolute no. To be fair, that WAS the Lincoln Tunnel, but still.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      An hour plus commute – each way – can be soul crushing. Not just the commute itself, but the impact on your life – getting up earlier, getting home later with little to no time to do things in the evening. I don’t know how bad your current situation is, but you might want to walk through a “sample week” – if you are able to telework, take a week and do the hour drive/bus/train whatever it is. work at a library or other facility, then schlep home. See what the impact is on your life. And weigh that impact against how you fell about your job. For me, a commute that long would be a “no.” But I know people with longer commutes that aren’t bothered by it. Everyone is different.

    3. allx*

      Commuting is a mindset. It is not impossible to do, as millions of people have commuted to work millions of times over the last 7 or 8 decades. And with all work from home, commuting traffic has become noticeably less, at least in my major city. Also, there are ways to minimize the pain of a commute: flexing travel time early or late, park-and-ride, music, podcasts, audio-books, and thinking time. But, you know your limit is 45 minutes and since you know that, the extra 15 minutes will definitely take its toll. In my last major commute (50 minute in/70 min home) I often joked that my home commute was two miles longer than my patience. Those last few miles were torture.

      However, your new VP, reporting-to-micromanager, and shaky organization budget would tip the scale for me to opt for the new job if give the chance despite the commute if I were mid-career and/or young-ish (60-ish or less). If you’re near the end of your career, sticking with the status quo would be understandable.

    4. newp*

      I understand your concern if you have to drive. Would it be workable to take PATH or NJTransit, at least occasionally? I have a 45-minute commute via subway in NYC and being able to read or knit or do something else makes it much nicer than being stuck driving.

    5. Having a Scrummy Week*

      As someone who had several jobs commuting from the suburbs to Greater Boston (not even to the city itself) for 1 hour each way on a GOOD day (not accounting for delays)…I don’t think I would do it again. 30-45 mins is my upper limit.

      The exception would be if you planned on moving closer to new job within the next 6-9 months. I could do the commute if it were a temporary thing with a defined end date.

    6. Hyaline*

      The sacrifice to work-life balance that two hours minimum in the car each day would require is a no-go for me. That’s personal, YMMV, but don’t underestimate the value of your time. Your choices, also, are not between “this job right now” and “this one single other job.” There are other options–you might not know about them yet, and they might not be on the table yet, but they’re there.

    7. Anonforthis*

      Could you move? Could you ask for off hours? A friend worked at Princeton and asked for a different schedule to beat the traffic and was allowed to work off hours certain days but they were at Director level and had to come in come days early for meetings.

    8. oat tea*

      I’m actually in a very similar situation to yours (higher ed staff role, NJ resident, looking for a new job and currently interviewing elsewhere).

      It could really depend on what roads you’re taking for the commute since New Jersey has so many busy highways. I had a couple interviews last month where the second was in person. In between interviews, I really started reconsidering taking the second interview, since the job was 60ish minutes away on paper taking both the Turnpike and the Parkway, though I decided to stick with it because I thought the opportunity had a lot of potential. Of course, then it ended up being almost 90 minutes with traffic and multiple slowdowns. So that felt like a non-starter before even walking into the interview (which I didn’t do well with anyway). Granted, it wasn’t during morning rush hour, so I’m not sure how normal or fluky that was.

    10. Meh*

      I would absolutely try the route a couple times before considering the role. An hour on a highway with minimal delays going against rush hour, sure. 45 min stop and go, traffic-filled or city driving, nope.

      Public transit is an option too – but unless your home and destination are on the same line, public transit is really based on people commuting to/from the city (NYC).

  35. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    How do you handle a peer or acquaintance who does not readily accept “yes” as an answer?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Uh, context? I normally hear this question the other way around, not accepting ‘no’. Are they extremely skeptical/paranoid and therefore they don’t trust your word?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        What Policy Wonk* said. I find myself answering a question with a literal “yes,” after which the asker tries to talk me into saying “yes.”

        Right now, my only escape is to say “no” after saying “yes” a few times. Confusion seems to break the cycle, but also upsets others unnecessarily. I keep coming back to there must be a better solution.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I work with a number of people who come in prepared for a “no”, so have marshalled their arguments, prepared to counter. When I say yes they don’t know what to do, so start going through their prepared points anyway. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about? If so, I just interrupt and remind them I already said yes.

  36. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Those in academia – what is your workflow to get around unproductive tenured colleagues and/or escalate issues up the chain?

    A coworker in my same department basically refuses to do… anything, as far as I can tell. Mostly we just sidestep and work around them, but we have a very public-facing project that impacts a lot of what students and other faculty can do and see on our website. Realistically, I know nothing is likely to change, but I also don’t want to go quietly about this. It’s affecting everyone else’s workflow and making our entire unit look bad because it’s so public. Do I email coworker (again) and CC our boss? Find a backend workaround to basically unpublish all their stuff? Compile all of their other issues and have a serious discussion with boss? Something else I’m not thinking of?

    1. bamcheeks*

      I have dealt with this at a couple of different levels. What I wouldn’t do is email again asking or reminding them to do the task, if it’s clear that’s not working.

      Depending on my level and whether you’re a peer to this person or more junior, I would either try and speak to them directly, whether that means sending a meeting request or phoning them or even tracking them down in their office / lab. What I’d try and find out is whether this is a flat, “no, I’m not doing it” thing or a, “oh gosh I’m so sorry, yes, I know I need to I’m just absolutely swamped” situation.

      Sometimes having a conversation has been all it’s taken to get the thing moved up someone’s priority list. If that doesn’t work, then I’d definitely go to my manager.

      CAVEAT: one time my manager required me to do this to an academic during a really busy time of the year, and then The Important Document got put in a folder and ignored for six months, at which point it was out of date. I am still mad, because that really damaged my credibility. If this really needs doing, make sure it VISIBLY has an impact.

  37. Subawoo*

    Last week, I found out that I didn’t get a job that I was hopeful for. The person they hired is someone I’ve worked with before and quite stellar. They absolutely made a good hire–it just wasn’t me!

    Nevertheless, it’s disappointing and I’m feeling quite defeated overall in my job search that has gone on for 6 months with lots of interviews but no offers. Up until the last few years, every time I interviewed for a job, I got an offer. That seems to no longer be the case. Maybe that’s because as I move up, competition gets more fierce.

    The hiring manager of the position I didn’t get offered to meet to discuss the selection process and my career path going forward. It’s a gracious offer that I intend to accept. My question to the commentariat is how to make the most of this opportunity. What questions should I ask?

    1. Mad Scientist*

      That’s an interesting offer, and I’m not sure how I would feel about it personally. Is this hiring manager essentially offering to mentor you? The fact that they want to talk about the selection process makes me wonder if there are other open positions they think you’d be a better fit for.

  38. Joe Momma*

    I’ll be starting an admin coordinator job at a liberal arts college the 2nd week of September in one of the science departments. My background is in customer service/admin but I’ve never worked in education. Does anyone have any tips for working in higher ed? TIA :)

    1. History Nerd*

      In my experience, the hierarchy is very important and something you should always keep in mind – and the staff are always on one of the lowest rungs. That means if you really need to get something done, but only staff want/need it, you need to recruit an ally at the permanent/tenured professor level or higher.

    2. AlabamaAnonymous*

      Higher ed is weird. I’ve worked in it for 20 years and love it, but it is weird. People tend to guard their little part of the campus carefully, so watch and listen a lot at the beginning to try to get the lay of the land.

      In some colleges, there are strict divides between administration (vps/res/etc), faculty, and staff, as in the faculty blame admin for all the problems while admin blames the faculty for all the problems. (And staff know that the admin and faculty are both problems!) It is also common for faculty to be a priority and for staff to be overlooked/have very little power which results in having very different expectations for the two groups. (Faculty often have very flexible work schedules, dress code, etc. while staff are excepted to in their office 8-5 in power suits.)

      As far as advice, look for other academic coordinators in other areas/departments and try to get to know them. They will be able to tell you who to talk to get things done and who to try to avoid. Also, be ready for processes that maybe paper-based and not super efficient :-). But also be prepared to meet and work with some truly wonderful and interesting people!

      If I think of anything else, I’ll come back and add more.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Congrats! Take some time to learn the campus and any student support services because students always have directional questions. Take a look into any nonstandard benefits; a lot of universities partner with places that provide discounted tickets, car rentals, hotels, or discounts at local businesses.

    4. bamcheeks*

      Academic staff are very, very busy and mostly their workloads are on fire. Junior academics will often get the thing done (at the cost of their own mental health, but you won’t necessarily see that); senior academics are usually prioritising ruthlessly (it’s the only way they’ve survived), and some of them will see your area as a priority and some won’t.

      Work out who are the people who see you responsibility as important are and go to them first, but also get used to even them ignoring your emails / requests / meetings etc. It’s not personal, it’s just a broken system. If you are grateful and appreciative when someone finally does the thing after 12 email reminders, two missed information meetings, three successive deadlines and a long explanatory phone call, you will get a reputation as an easy person to work with and that goes a long way next time you need something doing.

    5. Hanani*

      Congrats on the new job! I echo that higher ed is just weird, so if you ever find yourself wondering if you’ve moved to the Upside Down, you can feel reassured that it’s the system not you.

      Students and faculty both will repeatedly forget that you don’t have all their same breaks/level of schedule flexibility. It’s not personal, everyone is just very focused on their own life.

      Agree that the hierarchy is Something Else. Develop a good relationship with some tenured faculty and you’ll get a lot more done.

      At a small liberal arts college you work with people rather than offices – spend some time at the beginning getting to know people, going to social events, stopping by to introduce yourself, etc. because it’s so much more effective to do your job when you can send a person or a request to Fatima rather than to the Registrar’s Office.

      I don’t like recommending this, but I had a lot of success saying yes to an ask that was way outside what should have been expected of me – people remembered me and talked about me positively for years as a result. Especially at a SLAC, that tactic can easily also just result in a bunch of unpaid additional work being dumped on you, so tread carefully. All but the wealthiest SLACs are hurting financially and most people do more than their job.

      There will be tons of extremely inefficient ways to do things that Cannot Be Changed because Professor So-and-so won’t have it. Just shrug. There will be some extremely inefficient ways to do things that you will change in ways that feel extremely obvious and everyone will think you are a wizard. Ask what the process is and why before making any changes, to determine which camp it falls into.

      Academia in general is a prestige/mission kind of field (though this is thankfully less of a thing with staff) – it’s okay to say no to extra work even if that extra work would help students. It’s okay to decide it’s not for you. It’s okay for this just to be a job and not a passion. It’s also okay to love it and be totally into it, of course! But if it turns bad or your institution is dealing with financial issues that make the job not stable, put on your own oxygen mask first.

    6. Goddess47*

      –The ‘business cycle’ for higher ed is very different than for business. The school year/academic calendar drives everything. Get hold of it (likely on the website) and be sure to understand the holidays and start and end of the semesters.

      –The faculty schedule is just slightly different from the classroom schedule. Find out what that is.

      –Talk to purchasing/finance about the budget cycle. In the Science department, ordering supplies/equipment/etc needs to be done with the academic calendar in mind. If you’re predecessor didn’t leave you a list, ask for info on the last year’s worth of purchasing. And learn the purchasing process; in the end it won’t be that different from what you might know but there’s always a gotcha.

      –Faculty are no better/worse than anyone. Just because they’re smart enough to be faculty doesn’t mean they aren’t stupid in other ways. There will be the “Oh, I forgot to do/order [whatever] and need it yesterday” types. Learn what you can and cannot do.

      –In a science department, do you care about lab accidents in even the faintest way? The more you know, the less likely someone is to get hurt.

      –The more you learn about whatever data processing/ERP system the college uses, the more useful you are. Find the training and/or documentation and/or local guru. Do not depend on someone else’s notes. Just because their notes work doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do things. If you’re stuck with someone’s notes, ask another person to show you the same process and pick what works best for you. Then ask IT if there’s documentation. There’s *always* documentation somewhere.

      Good luck!

    7. Hyaline*

      So, lots of socially awkward weirdos in higher ed. I say that as one of them. But what that means in practice is try to avoid assuming bad intent when it could very well just be awkwardness. It probably is awkwardness.

      Get to know people. Universities and even smaller colleges can be very siloed, and this gets in the way a lot. You’ve got a leg up if you know that “the person to talk to about the Llama Certification Program is Becky” or “Ralph used to handle Iguana Admissions but now it’s Susan.”

      Especially get to know the folks who once upon a time would have been called “department secretaries” but may now be listed as admins, support specialists, etc. When they’re good, they’re so good, and they know everything about everything.

      Explore career development and non-career kinds of learning opportunities, because there are often free ones you have access to and you may even be paid for learning. You may have access to free coursework or tuition reimbursement. Colleges like learning so they tend to reward it.

      Also check out what might be free or discounted when it comes to the gym on campus, concerts, theater, lectures, even trips or museum passes.

  39. Policy versus Implementation*

    Question: Does this PTO policy seem fair? Our PTO is quite limited and does not roll over. But my job does not give PTO in half days. Sometimes this is good, like if you have to go to a dentists appointment you don’t need to use PTO for that – the guidance is only to enter PTO if you work four hours or less in a day. But the flip side is, I’m often called back to work on what was supposed to be my vacation, so I have lost a PTO day that I actually spent working from the hotel lobby, or I had to pack my work laptop last minute and do “a quick task” that snowballed. If I worked for less than 4 hours, I have lost that PTO. Lately it seems like every trip I take, I end up working at least part of it (the how and why of that is the subject of another comment). If you were in this boat, would you advocate for a change in the PTO policy, or should I just focus on trying to untangle the reasons I end up working on leave?

    1. Mad Scientist*

      That seems ridiculous! I could see it making sense for some very specific jobs, but in most cases, that just seems like a way to dissuade people from truly taking time off.

    2. birder in the backyard*

      Can you retroactively adjust your PTO? I’ve done that when disturbed or pulled into office matters while on vacation. Keep track of the hours, present to manager as 4+ hours total and recover one PTO day. Also, not offering PTO by hours is nuts!

      1. Gumby*

        We only use PTO by full day increments and it works pretty well for us. If I need to take 2 hours off for the dentist, I just report the 6 hours I worked (salaried but project-based so need to track for billing purposes) and go on with my life. I normally make that type of thing up within the pay period with an extra 30 minutes here or there. The key here is that when I am on vacation/PTO – I do not get called back to work. The one (1) time it happened because of a proposal due date, I spent maybe 2-3 hours on it one evening and then that day did not count as PTO at all so my whole vacation only used 4 vacation days even though I was away for a week. So “only use PTO in full day increments” only seems fair if accompanied by “if you do any work at all in the day, it is not PTO.”

    3. Alex*

      I think it would be better to untangle the reasons you end up working on leave!

      What would happen if you said no? What would happen if you were unreachable? First figure out which part of this is you not setting boundaries and which part of this is your employer requiring that you work.

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        That’s complicated, but basically I’m extremely burned out, and due to the nature of my workload and my bosses’ availability, I would need to do twice as much work in the weeks leading up to an absence – but I’m too burned out to do that, meaning I end up leaving with there still being things that need to be done. I can’t get it all done in advance without more help than I have.

        1. WellRed*

          That’s not solvable or sustainable for you. What happens if you don’t get it all done. If you are a regular here, you know the advice: let balls drop, ask how to prioritize, etc. are you afraid of being fired? Then they’ll really be screwed.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I would start with trying to untangle the reasons you end up working on leave.

      A few questions to start with:
      * Do you work in a life-or-death industry? What happens if those tasks don’t get done until you get back from vacation?
      * Do other people at your company work on vacation? Or do they fully unplug? (Is this more of a company culture issue or more of a “you” issue?)
      * What happens if you don’t take your work laptop with you on a trip?
      * What happens if you take a trip to a place without internet/phone access?

      2. Policy versus Implementation*

        Unfortunately, it’s not life or death but it is very deadline-driven, with deadlines scattered across every month. It is related to funding so if we miss a deadline we would lose the chance to get money we desperately need. We are a small org (we would hire more if we got more of this money) and unfortunately we all seem to work on vacation, with my boss being among the worst. I do often struggle to have the right files on the right computer with wifi while I’m travelling. If I was going to refuse to bring my laptop I’d have to be super-organized and get everything in my role done super early, which doesn’t happen for a lot of reasons.

    5. ThatGirl*

      If it were me, I would simply refuse to work while on a vacation. I would never take my laptop with me.

      But I realize that this is not always possible; there are sometimes truly urgent tasks that only you can handle. Can you get comp time instead, unofficially? take a few hours off on a slow Friday?

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        This is what I kind of unofficially do now; knock off early for the day, or just keep an eye on email, because I ended up working several hours that didn’t “count.”

    6. History Nerd*

      While the policies at my work are different, it would be very easy for that to happen at my current job (and it has). My coworkers and I just refuse to be available during our days off. Is that an option for you?

    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      That seems VERY unfair.

      You shouldn’t be punished for doing your employer a favor by working on your vacation. If they call you in, they should credit that PTO.

      (Heck, I’m Swedish and here the rules are that if you get sick on vacation, you call in sick and get sick pay instead of using up a vacation day. Well, you’re supposed to do that but not everyone knows about it and not everyone does it. It depends.)

    8. HonorBox*

      The policy seems unfair, yes.

      Can you NOT take your laptop? Put some parameters in place so you don’t have to take time away from your PTO. It can be a liability for the company. Play that card.

      Also, can you get some of that time back? Like dip out early some day if you do have to log in when you’re on PTO.

      If you HAVE to take your laptop, and if there’s no way to get around the interruptions, I think then it is time to have a conversation with your boss and/or HR because there’s no reason that you should be having to give time back.

    9. Friday Person*

      This is not ideal for a number of reasons, but if you are frequently needing to work, like, 3 hours and 15 minutes on vacation, and the factors leading to that are unlikely to change, I might be tempted to occasionally find something else that needs to get done for the next 46 minutes or so necessary to reclaim it as a work day.

    10. Hyaline*

      Maybe I’m misreading, but it seems that the problem is mostly that you can’t take time off without being recalled to work? If you knew that your day off was OFF darnit and no one was going to call you or require you, I feel like this would be a nonissue? Maybe start there–are there ways even your team can respect PTO, especially given that the policy is not conducive to doing what’s happening with calling people to come work when they’re off for the day?

    11. Anonforthis*

      This used to be me except I could not use PTO I worked during vacation or I needed to take a half day mainly because I worked long hours and weekends.

      Like today I am meant to be off but had a last minute in person meeting this morning and my crazy boss has been emailing and calling me non stop all day (she is also allegedly off). So now when I’m on actual vacation (not just taking. Day) I turn off my work phone and work computer. Seriously. I have a personal phone that’s few people know but unless someone died or it’s a real emergency they know (from experience) not all contact me anymore. My newish boss hates it but that’s my boundary. I sometimes get nasty texts, calls or emails from her, but she thinks everything is an emergency and all of us are trying to jump ship.

      So I recommend doing that if you can and telling your team you won’t answer emails or calls if you’re away and X person is your deputy. Give someone those tasks. It used to bug me because stuff usually want done right or how I wanted but now I don’t care as much anymore because of the insane topboss lady.

      1. Policy versus Implementation*

        Definitely a major problem is that we don’t have cross coverage of my tasks. I could in theory coach someone how to log in and navigate the ever-changing systems I work in, but I know they would be stressed by it, and would probably end up wanting to call me to be talked through it / hand-held anyway.

        1. Hyaline*

          In reading the follow ups–this is not sustainable. I’m not sure if this is something you have standing to address or not, but if you’re burned out, no one can cross-train to cover you, and there isn’t enough staff for you to get done what you need to get done before leaving…yeah. This is not good. Giving you “PTO” that you can’t actually use is kind of the crappy cherry on top.

          1. Policy versus Implementation*

            Haha yea I am trying to jobsearch but that also takes a ton of energy unfortunately

  40. Sneezy*

    Can a career coach take an inventory of my strengths, experience, and skills, and recommend more viable career pathways for me? How do I find a coach who would be a good fit for me? Or good in general? The ones I’ve seen on social media haven’t impressed me.

    Are there coaches who specialize in working with people who face discrimination, etc? I’m a hard-worker and intrinsically motivated, but I’ve only been able to get hired into roles well below my ability level and it’s had a negative impact on my mental health and financial well-being. Also because of this pattern, I’m not really able to assess my situation well – It’s hard to observe organizations’ patterns and strategy when you’re always in the trenches away from those conversations. I need to work with someone who has that experience and knowledge in my industry.

    1. Minji*

      I won’t say career coaches are never helpful, but I’m not sure it’s what would be the most helpful for your situation. If you need someone with experience and knowledge in your industry who can pinpoint why you are having trouble getting hired, I think it would be more helpful for you to talk to someone who is currently hiring in your field, explain your situation, perhaps show them your resume, and see what advice they have. Perhaps a former boss could be helpful, or a current senior colleague? College alumni networks can also be good for forming those sorts of connections.

    1. WellRed*

      How much do you want to bet the company insists on Face Time and Collaboration! This certainly puts that to the test. Also, how depressing. Hopefully, they won’t address it by offering a 14k mountain hike to build team rapport.

      2. Anon today since I'm still riding the stagecoach*

        Minimum 3 days in office is required, cameras preferred to be on for meetings. No chance of a hike (of any length) since it would keep us from our work. I’ve never been able to figure out the purpose of all that; we’re also chastised if we’re caught “wasting time with chitchat.”
        Unfortunately, as this tragic example showed, collaboration has little to do with being in the office.

    3. Wilting Plant*

      Ha I was going to post that here today too. This incident is more proof that companies should NOT care about whether or not an employee works in the office, as long as work is getting done.

      I feel so bad for this poor woman. Of all the places to pass, work is the worst.

      1. WellRed*

        Always thought something like getting flattened y a rack of Twinkies or Ding Dongs seemed pretty bad. Undignified!

  42. Mad Scientist*

    I had an interview earlier this week, and it seemed to go well overall, except for the fact that I answered one of the technical questions completely incorrectly. The question was within my area of expertise, and the error I made was frankly embarrassing. I suddenly realized the error as soon as I woke up the next morning, and in retrospect, it seemed glaringly obvious.

    But I remembered some comments on this site from years ago, encouraging a candidate to reach out to the hiring manager after realizing they made a mistake on a skills assessment during the interview process. So I decided to follow this advice and mention the mistake in my thank-you email to the interviewers. I’m not sure if it was enough to save my chances (because it really was an embarrassing mistake), but the interviewer responded positively and seemed to appreciate that I reached out about it.

    So thank you to the lovely commenters on this site for your abundance of helpful advice over the years! I’m so glad I saw those comments years ago and remembered them when I found myself in a similar situation.

    1. Kathenus*

      That’s great to hear! I think a lot of people, and this could be a sign of a potentially good employer, not only know people are human but appreciate people who take responsibility for mistakes. I had an interview for a job I really wanted years back. I generally interview very well, but was quite nervous in this one and think it really impacted my performance. I acknowledge this in my thank you and got a response saying that they didn’t think I seemed at all nervous, it was good to meet me, and such. I ended up getting the job too.

    2. Cardboard Marmalade*

      I think anyone who has met the “I don’t make mistakes” guy would find it pleasant for someone to acknowledge having made a mistake in a chill, normal way XD

  43. History Nerd*

    Any advice for the not-actually-a-manager who has sort of been put in charge of morale while the actual manager is out on medical leave? We’re all waiting for a new work-from-home policy that is overdue. My manager asked me to try to keep people calm about it while she’s away but I’m anxious for it too and feeling a bit like that’s not my job, even if I am the senior person and older than most of them by a decade.

    1. Danielle*

      I would just not treat the team like children and instead be honest with them about the information you have: you don’t have the work from home policy yet, but the latest communication is that we can expect it by X date. We don’t know yet what it will say, but X employee concerns have been communicated to the higher ups and they have said Y in response. If there are further questions or concerns they would like you to pass on, they can let you know, but that is the information you have at the moment.

      In opinion, you can’t stop people from being anxious, but you can at least help them feel that they are getting clear and fair communication — that nothing is being intentionally delayed or obfuscated — and that never hurts morale.

      1. History Nerd*

        Agree that it’s not worth trying to keep people from being anxious about it – especially when I am too! But that’s a good point about communication. Our grand boss is not good at it and that can create even more anxiety than necessary. Thank you for reminding me of that.

    2. Goddess47*

      Ask your grandboss for an update of any sort so you can share it.

      “While Mabel is out, she asked me to keep an eye on things and the one thing I keep getting asked is about the WFH policy. If there’s not a date it will be released, I am going to share that with anyone who asks.” If you have the political capital to spend, you can then go on to “And should I send anyone who is anxious to you for clarification?” but that’s kind of passive/aggressive… LOL

      If nothing else, *you* get an update from it!

      Good luck!

  44. aaaaaaaaa*

    Any tips for not feeling miserable during longer-term, complicated projects? I feel like I always have a good amount of energy at the beginning of a project, but I get super stressed about the later stages. I do try to chunk the work into bite-size tasks and set achievable deadlines for those, but I think I have trouble keeping my “blinders” on and focusing on the task at hand I just get worried about how I probably messed something up months ago and the other shoe will drop at any moment, or about how much of the project there is remaining, or any other general angst. I also feel like I get bored and hit a wall with the project pretty quickly, which makes me prone to procrastination. I find myself ignoring the deadlines I set for myself because I just have so much dread about the project in general.

    Yes, I do have an anxiety disorder. No, 10 years of therapy and various medications have not helped.

      1. Danielle*

        I’d have different advice if you were just starting out in your career, but if you’ve been working on this with a therapist for ten years and have seen no improvement, I might recommend looking for a job that doesn’t revolve around long-term complicated projects.

        I only say this because I have bad anxiety and had a very similar experience in my previous job. I ended up deciding that that kind of work just isn’t my strength and finding a new job where I mainly work on tasks with shorter-term deadlines. I’m SO much happier now and feel like I’m finally the high-performing worker I always wanted to be.

      2. Danielle*

        Is there any way you can be less involved towards the end of the projects — maybe the tasks at the beginning are more specialized in a certain way that you could work on focusing on more?

        1. aaaaaaaaa*

          Not really. I am an admin at a smallish nonprofit, so it’s very much a “wear many hats” job.

  45. Margaret Cavendish*

    Argh, just a vent about employers not putting the salary range in their job ads! I’m in an industry where the titles aren’t standardized, so a manager in one organization could be doing the same work as a director in another, or an individual contributor in a third. I’m not too fussed about the title, but I really do need to know about the salary before I apply.

    So many companies talk about their commitment to good governance, recruiting top talent, and equity – and don’t post their salary ranges. I feel like writing back with a manifesto about how not posting salary ranges is hurting women and minorities, but I know it’s not worth my time. So I’ll just vent here instead!

    1. But maybe not*

      There’s an organization I partner with closely at my job, and my contacts there will frequently send me postings to share with my network. My question back to them is always “What’s the hiring range?” because I refuse to share without it. They usually claim they don’t know…and I say thank you and delete the email. I wish my state would pass a law requiring hiring ranges in posting, but it’s a long shot (we favor the corporation in these parts).

    2. History Nerd*

      That is really frustrating! Most people work because we need money, not for the love of the work environment, so salary should be one of the details that is ALWAYS included.

    3. Justin*

      I mean, this is the law in many states now, so I’d see about advocating for this policy changing in your location. My mom runs a womens’ rights law firm that was part of the NY state law being passed and it’s so helpful.

  46. Resumr*

    I know this has been asked before but having a dilemma about resume length. Mine is slightly longer than 1 page. Would it be weird if instead of going to two pages and having a bunch of white space on page 2 I just lengthen the page since no one prints anymore? So instead of 8.5×11 make it 8.5×14 or something? Google docs has the endless page more so it seems like this should be ok.

    1. Mad Scientist*

      I wouldn’t recommend it! I do still print resumes when I interview someone. And I’m sure it could get cut off or trimmed automatically by some online application systems. You would be better off reducing the margins, line spacing, and/or font size (10 pt minimum).

    2. TX_Trucker*

      We still print resumes in my industry. Can you go to 1.5 pages at least? Maybe make your name or category headers in a larger font to use up some space?

    3. Minji*

      My boss still prints out resumes and hands them out to people in meetings since he prefers not to have everyone clicking between them in meetings.

    5. Random Academic Cog*

      Don’t recommend using a non-standard length. But do consider wordsmithing your duties lists. Every resume I’ve ever reviewed had at least some entries that could have been condensed using active voice and combining related duties into a single line of text. You’d be surprised at how much space you can save combining related concepts (e.g., developed and managed annual budget, created and taught curriculum for new process).

  47. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

    Question for the hive mind: How would you expect time off to be handled (or how would your org handle it) in the following situation?

    Scenario: You schedule vacation time for two weeks, and get approval to use vacation time for it. Shortly after your vacation begins, you get sick for multiple days. It’s bad enough that, if it were a work day, you would have needed to use your sick time because you were in absolutely no shape to work, leave the house (hotel, AirBnB, whatever).

    Are you able to go back and adjust your request to change vacation days out for sick days, for the days you were sick?

    1. WorkerDrone*

      To me, and how I would expect my org to see it, once the employee is actually physically/literally on vacation time, it’s “their” time and while it’s unfortunate they were sick, it’s not relevant to the employer.

      So getting sick on vacation would be the same as getting sick on a weekend – not the employer’s time, and it sucks but it isn’t appropriate to switch to or use sick leave.

      If someone got ill the evening before vacation leave started – vacation time was approved but the employee isn’t literally on vacation leave yet – I could see switching to sick leave.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        That’s always been my experience as well, with one addendum. If the illness lasts long enough to delay the return to work after the vacation, then I’ve seen the vacation retroactively converted to sick leave discretionarily. It’s literally been the high-performers who have excellent relationships with their supervisors who have been able to do that; we plebs are just SOL.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Ah, that’s an interesting scenario: sick enough before the start of vacation to cancel the trip and therefore vacation days altogether. Yes, I can see this happening in sequence: vacation leave requested, vacation leave approved, get sick, cancel all approved vacation leave, take sick leave as needed.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I once got the flu while taking a week off during the winter holidays. I had no expectation that I could turn it into sick time. It was just bad luck.

    3. Cordelia*

      I’m in the UK health service so I know it is entirely different, but in case it’s of interest – yes, if you get sick during your vacation you can change it to sick leave instead, and keep the vacation for another time. The rules about needing to provide medical evidence are stricter though, but I can’t recall what. It’s not something you’d expect to do if e.g. you caught a cold on vacation and had a couple of days hanging round the hotel rather than going out hiking, it’s more for if you are so sick you had to cancel your trip and stay in bed.

      1. TechWorker*

        This is actually U.K. law, so all U.K. companies have to do it, although I’m sure there are some who would push back.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      My employer has a policy specifically about this, so I’d check your employer’s policies. If this situation isn’t mentioned, I would assume it can’t be converted to sick leave.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I would expect my org to consider being sick on vacation a personal problem, but they also give managers a lot of discretion.

      I think my manager would probably convert a day or 2, but not more than that.

    6. Kay*

      Were you otherwise scheduled to be/would you otherwise be at work is the relevant question for me – if not, it sucks but that is life. For the record this has happened to me. Now if I got sick, cancelled vacation and came back to work earlier than my scheduled vacation – I could certainly expect a discussion and hopefully them allowing a switch to sick time (I also expect this to vary based on things like performance, standing, etc).

    7. SickTimeOnPTO*

      I’ve done this several times, but it’s totally at the discretion of my manager at the time.

    8. GythaOgden*

      Yes, we can do that if it interferes with being able to take the trip or with a staycation. I don’t think it would really fly if you went away and came down with a bug while away and recovered quickly enough to enjoy the rest of the holiday.

      In your case, a day or two unable to leave the house on a two-week trip would probably not qualify.

  48. Medium Sized Manager*

    Just want to celebrate with people who will appreciate it: I had a fantastic interview with somebody I was ready to hire immediately (but had to officially go through the supplier). I extended the offer late last night, and she accepted in less than an hour. I am so stinking excited for her to join our team!!

    What’s your win of the week?

    1. Elle Woods*

      Congrats! That’s exciting!

      My win this week? I removed myself as a volunteer from an organization I used to really love. The org got new leadership about a year ago and has become a hot mess of dysfunction and nastiness. Feels good to no longer be associated with that mess!

      1. Medium Sized Manager*

        Congratulations on stepping away from something that was no longer serving you!

  49. Asking for a Friend*

    I was looking at the career page of a mid-sized manufacturing company recently, and something there strikes me as odd, though I can’t quite pinpoint what bothers me: there’s only a listing for unsolicited applications specifically for candidates with disabilities, and the page is empty otherwise, with no other postings.

    I am curious, if this is common practice and if this genuinely contributes to diversity & inclusion practices, or somehow unintentionally introduces more bias in the selection process. Would appreciate any opinions on this! Thank you

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      That sounds really problematic, unless they are trying to specifically recruit people who have developmental delays and might need job coaching, but even then, it should be explained! (And I would expect some information about any government agencies they might work with for those who are interested.)

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        My state closed all their sheltered workshops and is all in on CIE as much as possible. (But some people still need job coaches and extra support.)

    3. TX_Trucker*

      There are grant programs that reimburse employers (fully or partially) and/or provide tax credits for hiring folks with targeted disabilities.

  50. Minji*

    I’m on a team where the work we do is significantly different from what most of our coworkers do. You can think of it like most of the office is very high-powered corporate attorneys, and we are the people who proofread their legal briefs (it’s not quite that situation but it’s very similar). We are by far the lowest-paid and least impressively educated team in the office, and we have no path to promotion — but we are quite experienced proofreaders who take a lot of pride in our work, and the briefs cannot go out without our signoff.

    Because our work is so specialized and separate, we do not really have a manager; we are technically under the VP who is in charge of legal briefs but she is many levels above us on the org chart, none of us have ever spoken to her, and she does not, as far as we’re aware, know anything about our daily work. (This is not an uncommon arrangement for our position in our field.) We just proofread the briefs as they come to us.

    This is where the problems start. All briefs technically have a “deadline” of 4 p.m., and we never miss this deadline, but many of the attorneys and executives are fast-paced people and get very impatient. In particular, two very high-up and powerful attorneys, Leslie and Ron, are constantly trying to rush us to the extent that we can’t please them both. A typical day will go something like:

    9:00 Leslie drops off three briefs. We begin working on Leslie’s Brief 1.
    9:30 Ron drops off three briefs.
    10:30 Ron comes back, demanding to know why we haven’t started proofreading his briefs yet when he dropped them off an hour ago and complaining that his client needs them ASAP. We apologize and say we’re in the middle of Leslie’s Brief 1, but we’ll get to his briefs as soon as we’re done with it. Ron leaves, clearly very annoyed.
    11:00 We finish Leslie’s Brief 1 and begin working on Ron’s briefs.
    12:00 Leslie comes back, demanding to know why we haven’t started proofreading Leslie’s Briefs 2 and 3 yet when she dropped them off three hours ago and complaining that her client needs them ASAP. We apologize and say we’re in the middle of Ron’s Brief 2, but we’ll get back to hers as soon as we’re done with it. Leslie leaves, clearly very annoyed.
    Cycle repeats ad infinitum.

    Do folks have any suggestions for how to respond to this behavior? We are really fed up with it.

    1. WorkerDrone*

      When someone drops off a brief, can you say something like: “Briefs will be returned by 4pm at the latest, but be aware they are first-come-first-served and we cannot guarantee an earlier turn-around time”?

      In my job, (which is very different and maybe not relevant) we’ve found that you need to either make it clear it’s first-come-first-served, OR make the triage process as to what briefs get priority over others more clear. I wouldn’t have dropped Leslie’s briefs to rush to Ron’s brief’s, and I can see how Leslie might be annoyed by that.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Do folks have any suggestions for how to respond to this behavior? We are really fed up with it.

      My strategery:
      I would document one or two of these sessions, then present it to your nominal supervisor as a “normal occurance” and ask them to impose a strict queue structure–first in, first out–and stick with it. Route any complaining to Management (that *is* why Management gets the high compensation, right?).

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Whiteboard with a worklist? “First come first served, as always. Our current task list is right there. We’ll have everything back to you by 4pm or sooner.”

      (Put a drop box outside and lock your workroom door so they can’t come in and harangue you? :P )

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Also – does the whole team have to work on the same job at the same time, or could you split it up, some of you work on Ron’s and some on Leslie’s?

        1. Minji*

          We sometimes split it up, but pulling that many people off a project generally slows it down enough that it is finished at the same time regardless.

          We are working on systems to speed up the proofreading process as a whole, but without a real manager, getting them implemented has been a bit…complicated. That could be a whole other Ask A Manager post, haha

      2. Anonymous cat*

        I used to work at a place with a system like this for people who shared assistants. One person would inspect the board and then tell the assistant(s) they didn’t need to do Coworker’s work next because (reasons).

        The assistants knew to ignore that and follow the board. If something was a genuine rush, anyone could go to the actual boss and have it bumped up. Actual boss was a reasonable person about these requests but was not impressed by line jumpers.

        It was much fairer to the assistants since they didn’t get stuck in office politics.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Do you have any protocol at all in place? Or is the team making decisions about which brief to do next on an ad-hoc basis?

      You could put in a straight “first come, first served” protocol that has no exceptions. Or you could take this back to Ron and Leslie and ask them to decide on their own protocol so that you aren’t stuck in the middle of their competing needs and deadlines. Or you could set up some kind of rating scheme for Ron and Leslie to tell you whether something has a higher or lower urgency. Or your protocol could be “only the proofreading team decides our workflow, and that is the rule, and Ron and Leslie do not have a say in the order in which we complete the briefs.” Or some mix of protocols. The point being, if you have no protocol at all right now, there are no rules for anyone to follow, and it’s not surprising that Ron and Leslie get irritated at you and you get irritated at them.

      1. Minji*

        Yeah, it is generally understood and expected that we will do things in the order they come in, and Ron and Leslie are sort of both coming in and demanding to be an exception to that.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          From what you’ve posted, it seems to me that it’s not truly generally understood and expected, though. Maybe the team can write up an actual protocol so that Ron and Leslie and the team are all on the same page.

            1. lurkers*

              You also need to make it clear what happens if you drop off multiple at once. In the example you gave it seems like you are not doing a true first in first out process. Leslie dropped hers off first, but you only reviewed one of hers before going to Ron’s. That would be annoying if the process is supposed to be first in first out. Your team should define a written policy and let the attorneys know, and then follow it.

    5. NaoNao*

      Some kind of ticket system/tracker seems like the best option here. It will have the same information basically day in and out, but give them the link so they can see the status of their request “live”.

  51. Intern Interest*

    Hi! Need some opinions here.

    My partner (30s, straight male) works in person at a big government adjacent company. He has a baby face and a friendly demeanor so he gets mistaken as younger a lot. He is new to his company. A cohort of interns started and one intern got along with him well, he was in charge of some of her tasks in the rotation. She is a recent college grad and would confide in my partner about the older men at the company hitting on her or making inappropriate comments. My partner told the intern to report it to HR and offered to tell his boss if she didn’t feel comfortable. She did end up reporting them, unfortunately, nothing really happened to the men as they’re senior, but they did leave her alone.

    Over time, my partner and the intern exchanged numbers and they text back and forth. I was mildly uncomfortable with this because as the intern, it doesn’t feel like good boundaries (unless it’s texting about work.) but the intern will confide health issues, look for romantic advice, send pictures of herself (nothing lewd! My partner has been sharing all the texts with me. Just random selfies.), and just send “Hi wyd” late at night, which will lead to him texting all night. The intern has finished her rotation last week.

    My partner says he feels bad, so he will text back and send pictures back (no selfies, just pictures of what he’s looking at at the time), and try to keep things brief. I told him I feel uncomfortable because there’s a dynamic of intern and worker, and while he won’t be part of her hiring, it reads strange to me to be friends with the intern and text so much. I have had interns (even one closer to me in age) and I don’t feel an interest in texting with them unless it’s work related.

    My partner doesn’t feel like there’s anything wrong with it because she’s ended her internship. He says he tries not to engage on the romance topics, but he doesn’t try to shut it down. He feels like she might see him as a big brother. He also says that maybe I’m feel “jealous” because she’s a younger woman, which I was not happy with that comment. He has friends who are younger women and I like them, but this dynamic is strange to me. Like if one of your coworkers found about this, would you feel weird about it?

    So can someone help me decide if I am overreacting to this? I do not think my partner is cheating to be clear, he’s been very transparent about the texts (which is how I know the content.)

    1. Intern Interest*

      *also to be clear, I find this as poor boundaries by my partner, not so much the intern, who is still learning how this all works!

      1. Rosie*

        Seems a bit strange to me. If the internship has ended and they want to be friends, then fine? But continuing the relationship because he ‘feels bad’ or doesn’t ‘shut it down’ is a weird halfway house. I think he needs to reflect on what he actually wants from the texting relationship and where his boundaries really are.

        1. Intern Interest*

          I think he partially does want to be friends! From what we’ve discussed, he felt bad because she hadn’t made many friends in her internship and is having health issues. Still, I feel like being friends with the intern feels weird in general? But I could be old school/too boundaried with that! I perhaps had too many negative experiences with men at work that I don’t want to do that.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      It’s weird, and it’s going to give her weird ideas about business norms, but ultimately that part is not your problem. The part where you’re going “Hey, this is weird” and he’s going “You’re just jealous that I’m texting with a younger woman!” — that’s your actual problem, and personally one I’d have a serious come to Jesus with him about, but YMMV.

      1. Intern Interest*

        You’re right, the come to Jesus is certainly happening! While it isn’t my problem with the intern, I am curious of responses to it, as my partner will be checking this thread too. He’s curious if he is actually doing something “wrong.” (And I don’t think that’s the right word, maybe just inappropriate.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yeah, I don’t know about WRONG per se, but definitely weird, and it’s almost definitely going to give her ideas about how one interacts with coworkers that may come back to bite her or someone else in the butt later, which is definitely not doing well by her in terms of teaching her business norms. (But at the same time, he’s not doing very well at abiding by reasonable business norms either.)

          1. WellRed*

            For me, in particular, it’s the selfie sending. Sure, intern is from the selfie generation but I have sent selfies exactly zero times to any coworkers.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              I did … once. To my former boss. After dental surgery. Which is why nobody lets me have my phone until 24 hours after sedation anymore.

        2. Agathe Bauer*

          Maybe not wrong, but something the intern will probably look back on in time and think “that guy should have known better”

        3. Hlao-roo*

          Because your partner is reading this thread, I recommend you both read the “my wife says my relationship with my coworker is inappropriate” post from May 17, 2022. And the comments from the letter-writer (in the comments section as Oblivious OP).

          It’s not exactly the same scenario, but there are some parallels and that post could be useful in helping both of you determine where the boundaries of OK/not OK are.

          I’ll put the link in a reply to this comment.