open thread – October 7-8, 2016

by Alison Green on October 7, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,449 comments }

{ 1,449 comments… read them below }

  1. YYR*

    A few weeks ago, there was a question about whether it would look bad on a resume if you stayed too long with a retail job after graduation (specifically in the medical field if I recall correctly). Tweaking that slightly, would it look bad to be at a job for a significant period of time with no raise, promotion, or even title change?

    I work in a government office for going on two years now. I recently asked my boss about what the future might hold for me here and she told me that the only way to get a raise and promotion and all that is the apply and transfer to a next level job in another department (I told this to family who works in government jobs and they had mixed feelings on the truth of that statement).

    Either way, I have no interest in staying within government work and have been job searching for a few months now. Knowing how long the search can take, will it look bad on my resume that I’ll have been here 2 or 3 years with no changes? I’ve gained a few small responsibilities but nothing to write home about. One of the lines I have for cover letter/interview is how I’ve reached the limit of my potential here and am looking for more. But I’m still worried about looking stagnant on paper. Is this a justified worry?

      1. ZSD*

        Yeah, I was in my last job for four years with no changes, and I didn’t have trouble finding my next job.

    2. Murphy*

      I don’t think so. 2-3 years isn’t a terribly long time to be in one position. Raises aren’t terribly common in the government anyway. I think your line about reaching the limit of your potential is a great one.

    3. animaniactoo*

      2-3 years shows job stability in the ability to hold the job and not get fired or be laid off from it.

      5 years you might have an issue, but not 2-3.

      1. Ella*

        +1! 2- 3 years is a normal amount of time to stay in a job, and it be unsurprising that there’s no changes.

      2. SystemsLady*

        And if you’re in a client-facing field where you’re frequently doing different kinds of projects, 5 years+ would almost be all the more in your favor.

        You get so much varying experience that way I don’t think staying in the job would look bad at all.

      3. matcha123*

        I have 5 years and 2.5 years in government in a role that offers no promotion or growth…I am worried…

        1. Anna*

          If you’re looking, you have a ready-made reason for why you’re looking. Don’t let an off-handed comment about how long is too long to be in a role make you think you won’t be employable. If you’re happy with where you are, that’s a reason why you haven’t looked before.

          Seriously, if you find you’re applying for jobs and not getting interviews, it’s very unlikely that it’s because you’ve been in your position for X number of years. It’s probably a far less nefarious reason like you need to tweak your resume or you’re applying for jobs that don’t match your skills as closely as they should.

        2. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

          I’m leaving a local government position that’s I’ve been in for 5.5 years (with union-dictated raises) this week for a very different although adjacent field. It’s still with the same local government, which I’m sure helped me, but I was also able to show the 5.5 years as having gained a lot of expertise.

          But oh man, getting the call that I had gotten the job was a HUGE relief.

        3. animaniactoo*

          Note qualifier in my comment *might*. It all depends on the kind of role you were doing and what you’re looking to move to. Also whether you can show responsibilities added to the role that you’ve successfully taken on or if you’ve been able to improve the performance/handling of the role. There are all kinds of situational factors.

    4. ThatGirl*

      Nah. The whole idea with that letter was that she was staying in a lower-prestige job like retail when she had a more advanced degree. That doesn’t apply when you want to stay in roughly the same track.

      1. Natalie*

        Not just an advanced degree, but a medical degree – from what I understand your degree is basically worthless if you don’t get a job in the field within a short period of time, since the knowledge base in constantly changing.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Right – I was being vague but this is a good point. There are some fields where if you’re not working in them pretty quickly, you’re going to fall behind.

    5. Barbara in Swampeast*

      I’m not sure you should include the line about reaching the limit in your current job in your cover letter. The letter should be all about how you will be in the new position.

      Your relatives may have old info about government jobs. With all the cost cutting and job elimination going on, employment with the government agencies at any level (except Congress, because they take care of themselves) is going to only get harder.

    6. Ayla K*

      I don’t think so. I was at my last job for 4 years without a promotion – a particularly toxic manager told me in no uncertain terms that she would see to it that I would never get one. It actually worked out well in interviews because when I was asked why I was looking to leave my current role, I could talk about the lack of advancement opportunities.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        Even though that manager was a jerk, at least she was honest. I’ve seen too many managers string people along with the hopes of a promotion telling them that if they do X, Y, and then Z, then they’ll get a promotion only to turn right around and <i<not give said person the promotion. You at least knew where you stood and that if you wanted to move up, you’d have to move out.

        1. Anonamoose*

          THIS. I have been told every year that there would be more opportunity to learn and 3 years later, still doing the same stuff. I would leave but I am comfy. Though incredibly bored.

    7. Moonsaults*

      I agree with all the other comments that 2-3 years is just stability, not anything to worry about.

      Lots of jobs do not have title changes or pay raises, that doesn’t reflect on you or your abilities. Depending on your career path, I really wouldn’t think too much on that.

      This is actually the perfect reason to use to find other employment when you’re ready. “I’ve hit the ceiling and I really want to excel somewhere and grow within a company.”

      Also most places are going to understand a government job is a different can of worms than working in the private sector.

      1. Rob Lowe can't read*

        Yup. I’m five years into a career path that is unlikely to involve more than one title change, ever, and maybe not even that!

    8. Mike C.*

      It really depends on the industry or the position. No one bats an eye at a mechanic, plumber or doctor who has just been doing that one profession for decades, right? So long as you can show that’s you’re doing/learning new things and you’re current on the latest developments in your field you’ll be fine.

      This whole job hopping thing where you “have” to move jobs every few years to show that you “can handle new things” is getting out of hand.

    9. thehighercommonsense*

      Fellow government worker here! In my experience, raises and titles, etc tend to be pretty stagnant–often an agency needs one person in a particular role, and because turnover tends to be low, it’s hard even to move up to a higher grade in the same specialty. But even that is highly agency-dependent.

      I’ve found it’s helpful to focus on what you achieved in terms of projects–taking on more interesting or complex ones, working on a project that was highly visible, etc. If that’s not possible (like, your job was data entry all day every day, for the exact same thing), even showing the public impact can help (e.g. not “processed TPS reports” but “processed TPS reports for X Agency; data allowed agency to increase child support compliance by 7% over the fiscal year” or something).

      Also, 2 years isn’t that long to go without a raise or title change, especially in government. Showing you did good solid work is likely to be fine.

    10. Lily*

      I was in my current job for 5 years before I received any kind of upward movement….and it was a very, very VERY small move–in spite of glowing yearly reviews every time.

    11. Gene*

      Government is different. It’s not unusual for people to have the same title for decades. But there are areas where advancement is considered normal. An example here is the Treatment Plant Operator series; one gets hired as an Operator In Training and advance through to Operator IV. My group is different, we only have three types of positions; Water Quality Tech, Industrial Waste Inspector, and Program Manager. I was hired as an IWI and I’ve been here for 25 years with the same title. And unless I get the Program Manager job when my boss retires in a year or so, I’ll retire in 6 years with the same title.

    12. Joe Manager*

      I agree 2-3 years isn’t enough time to be worried about. However, if in an interview you said that there was no opportunity to move up or advance that could spark a good conversation during the interview.

    13. Former Retail Manager*

      I concur with all of the other commenters here. First and foremost, 2-3 years in the same position without a title change isn’t unusual, regardless of government or private sector. I feel like it takes at least 2 years to become really proficient in most positions anyway, assuming we aren’t talking about entry level clerical positions. And to remain in the same position in Government for that long, or waaaayyy longer, is not at all unusual. In fact, if anything, the fact that you have been in Government is your easy out for anyone who bats an eye. Most hiring managers have decent knowledge of how government works and knows that you can remain “stuck” in a position for years beyond when you’d like to move on due to budgetary constraints, union restrictions, organization politics, and a whole other slew of reasons over which you have no control. You shouldn’t be concerned about this issue. Best of luck in your future endeavors!

  2. Ayla K*

    I’m in HR. We have a group of non-manager employees from different departments that meet once a month as representatives of their team’s work. We want to recognize them at next month’s meeting to acknowledge the work they’ve put in this year. If everyone were in the same office, we’d order a nice breakfast or lunch for the meeting, but over half the group works remotely and getting them all together isn’t an option at this point. We thought about ordering breakfast for the 40% of the group members that will be here and offering the remote employees the ability to expense lunch for themselves that day, but it still seems lopsided. What can we do to recognize this group in a way that seems equal?

      1. Collie*

        Or Amazon. If I were in their shoes and you felt that verbal acknowledgement really wasn’t enough, that’s what I’d want.

      2. Isben Takes Tea*

        I would just note that if you do gift cards, to give gift cards to everyone, and not just the remote workers. Then you might have the in-house workers annoyed that they didn’t get to choose their meal.

      3. Jadelyn*

        Be careful with these, though – I believe gift cards count as employee compensation and have to be taxed. From SHRM:
        According to the IRS, gift certificates that are redeemable for general merchandise or have a cash equivalent value are taxable, but a certificate that “allows an employee to receive a specific item of personal property that is minimal in value, provided infrequently, and is administratively impractical to account for, may be excludable as a de minimis benefit, depending on the facts and circumstances.”

        Accordingly, a gift card or gift certificate that can only be redeemed for a specific, tangible item (for example, a ham, movie pass, or box of chocolates) may qualify as a de minimis fringe benefit under limited situations, but the IRS would view even a $5 gift card to a general retailer as income to the employee.

        1. Red Reader*

          Yup, we had a manager send out $10 gift cards to our team as a thank you and she got smacked by HR for it. (Following this sub-thread though — I lead a remote team of 20 currently and our management team is constantly racking our brains coming up with ways to reward the team without ticking off HR — if we weren’t all remote, I’d bring in cupcakes or donuts or whatever pretty regularly, but without that being an option….)

        2. Oryx*

          Yup, we get Visa gift cards for our Holiday bonus and they provide information related to the IRS and taxes, etc., so nobody is surprised.

          1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

            For everything but gift cards. Gift cards of any value have to be reported.

          2. Belle*

            Unfortunately all values of gifts cards are taxable. In addition, if the company tries to offset the taxes for it, this additional compensation would also be taxable. When I process payroll we actually use a separate form now to track gift card amount and any other additional compensation for reporting it correctly. A pain — but we try to make the gift card amount high enough that employees don’t mind the small tax.

            Here is a good link:
            https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/compensation/pages/holiday-gifts-taxable.aspx

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      I think that’s a great solution, actually. If I were working remotely, I’d be floored with the fact that you actually considered us and provided an equivalent meal. (Providing, of course, you made it very easy to expense the meal and have print reimbursement. If the remote workers don’t usually expense things, they could feel hesitant to take you up on the offer.)

      1. Ella*

        Ditto- this is a perfect equivalent, and shows that you’re thinking of them. If you give one group lunch, and another group amazon gift cards, it could get tricky since it’s lopsided but since it’s both meals, I think it’s great!

        1. Ayla K*

          Ella – this is exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn’t want to give a “gift” to some employees while the on-site folks just get food in a conference room. I think we’ll stick to the original plan of letting everyone offsite expense their lunch (most of them do expenses on occasion, so it shouldn’t be anything new.)

    3. Beancounter in Texas*

      I think a gift, consumable or not, is a good way to show appreciation to everyone. Then everyone gets recognition, and it’s probably a pleasant surprise for the remote employees.

    4. NaoNao*

      Perhaps instead of an organized lunch, could you mail out or send online gift certificates? That way the person can spend it on their own time at the place of their choosing. Your other option would be perhaps an extra PTO day or some other non-monetary thing like “Leave early Friday” or something?

      1. Ayla K*

        I do love this idea, but unfortunately that’s not really up to us – we’re in our busy season so everyone is doubling down. PTO and time off is really at the manager’s discretion. Also the goal is to celebrate together a bit, and letting everyone leave wouldn’t give us that time.

    6. Moonsaults*

      It doesn’t seem lopsided to me, they understand that they work remote and I would be thankful that the office went the extra step to extend their in-office meal offering to me. It’s truly a thoughtful situation.

    8. BabyShark*

      What about allowing them all to expense lunch no matter where they are? Or are these meetings during lunch so that the on location employees have to be in the office during lunch

      1. Ayla K*

        It’s a morning meeting in our home office (Pacific Time) but we have employees in several different time zones across the U.S., so it will be breakfast for the on-location employees and then lunch for some remotes, breakfast for others.

    10. Lizard*

      Why not just send them each a $20 gift card or something? (My company does spot awards like that–they are always Amex gift cards, usually $50-500). It’s always nice to have free money to do with as you wish.

    11. TotesMaGoats*

      If you can get them all together at the same time but not the same location, why can’t you order a breakfast for the remote people unless I guess they are working from home?

      1. Ayla K*

        That’s exactly it. We have one office and about 15% of the company works remotely – from home. That could mean they are 4 hours from our office or on the other side of the country. We can’t really order breakfast to be delivered to 5 separate people’s houses. (Plus for a few of these people – on the East Coast – it would be lunchtime)

    12. LoFlo*

      Gift cards and gift certificates no matter the denomination have to be reported as W2 income. The last place I worked started giving actual items to get around the taxation. How about gift baskets of coffee, candy, etc sent to the remote staff, and a meal for the on site folks?

  3. ZSD*

    Any AAM readers current or potential federal contractors? Last fall, President Obama signed an executive order granting paid sick time to all federal contractors, and late last week, the Department of Labor issued the final rule.
    For all federal contracts awarded January 1, 2017, or later, everyone working on the contract will be able to earn up to 56 hours of paid sick time per year (or at any one time – it’s complicated). So if you, say, work in a fast food restaurant in a federal building, your employer will now have to give you paid sick time. (Paid sick time is for short-term absences from work, like if you need to take one day to take care of your kid who has the flu, or if you need to take two hours to go to the dentist.)
    Link to follow in another comment. I’m happy to answer questions.

    2. Barbara in Swampeast*

      I just want to point out that it is an executive order, not a law passed by Congress, and therefore can be undone by the new president.

    3. an anon for now*

      I work in that space and soooo many of our SCA clients are just not getting that they can’t pay for sick leave using SCA fringe dollars. It’s driving me batty. Most people can get that if the benefit is required by law = the employer pays for it, not the SCA fringe dollars, but for some reason a lot of clients are processing this EO as not “required by law.”

      End extremely specific complaint.

    4. zora.dee*

      oooo, my Dad is! I’ll make sure he knows about it… wow, that’s kind of a game changer for him, he’s been a contractor for decades, and has never had PTO.

  4. Sunflower*

    I’m really interested in jobs with international travel. I’ve been considering moving into a sales/relationship manager or project management role but I’m pretty open. I currently work in event planning and I’m finding limited roles with extended travel.

    While I’m sure it depends on a number of factors, are there any industries where international travel is common and I should be looking at specifically? Any other suggestions for me?

    1. ZSD*

      My brother is in sales and does international travel all the time. Of course, it depends on the type of sales, and some people (read: me) would really hate to sell things for a living.
      Also, just a warning: whenever I ask my brother how Singapore, Turkey, Russia, etc., was, he says, “PowerPoint looks the same in every country.” Jobs with international travel don’t always give you the opportunity to actually see the country!
      If you’re interested in *living* abroad, there’s the foreign service.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yes, this. And you don’t always get to go to the nice or interesting places abroad. Sometimes it turns out your company’s remote office is in the international version of, say, Peoria.

        1. the gold digger*

          I had coffee with a guy who works for a company headquarted in Finland. I said it must be neat to travel there. He said nope, Helsinki is the European equivalent of Beloit.

      2. Sunflower*

        I’m in event planning so I know the experience of being stuck in a conference room with a beautiful ocean outside that you can’t see from 6am-8pm. I’ve always traveled in my jobs- although my current job I travel more but the trips are shorter- and I want to get back to traveling further/longer in my next job. I’ve thought about living abroad(haven’t researched it at all) but thought this might be a good way to feel it out.

      1. Lizard*

        Except you can’t really specify that you only want international projects…and if you want to do management consulting in international development, that usually requires significant expertise and experience in that field. Besides, most of the big firms have local offices anyways in home countries.

        1. Blue Anne*

          It’s very common to go on secondment to those offices, though. When I was in Scotland, my department (Big 4 audit) had people on secondment from America, India, Egypt, and people from our office out on secondment to Australia, France, and India. Secondments were usually 6-24 months and pretty good for your career. I think it was even more common in consulting.

          1. MC*

            Firms have been restricting cross country assignments unless, as noted, you have specialized skills because of housing, per diems and other cost factors. However, some firms have contracts with the State Department that involve copious amounts of travel. Others have programs in which you commit to a project in a developing country for 6 mos to a year.

            As someone who travels a lot for work – it’s true that sometimes your Zurich trip involves little more than showing up for some meetings and going right back to the airport.

    3. Bob Barker*

      Arts or education development (fundraising) often has a big international travel component, although I think that’s the sort of thing that is regarded as a perk for high performers or people with high rank. There tends to be domestic travel to New York or LA or other Money Locations more often, but 10-14 days in London or India or Japan are relatively common, depending on the org’s focus and the potential donor pool.

      (IME, there are shorter trips where the fundraiser works solo with donors, and longer trips where the fundraiser is basically a guide/fixer to introduce Internal bigwig to donors.)

      It can be a pretty tough field, with a lot of social conformity pressure and backbiting — as you would expect, every nonprofit is fighting the others for the attention of a very small pool of large donors. But if you can hack that (and if you’ve survived event planning, you probably can), then it might be worth a try.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Agree with ZSD. I took this job (corporate event planning) for lots of reasons, one of which was the opportunity to travel several times each quarter — both domestically and internationally. I have only been able to experience the city I’ve traveled to one time, and that was because I extended my trip for 3 days and took vacation time.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. I just got back from D.C. All I saw was the inside of the hotel and the event center. I suppose with international travel, you might rack up frequent flier miles so at least you could go somewhere for free one your vacation time, but unless you add a few days or fortunate to be done on a Friday or Thursday and not fly back ’til Sunday, my experience with travel (domestic or international) for business was that there was no time to any touristy or fun things, unless the company or business you are consulting with is eager to show you a bit of local culture.

      2. It happens*

        That’s a great field for travel in general, especially for companies with large sales forces. They have LOTS of ‘conferences’ in interesting locations. Of course, you’ll be working your tail off during the conference, but there are scouting trips and extensions…

    5. Jilly*

      A lot of it depends where you are located. My cousin worked in the international education office at a university so she traveled a lot because she was dealing with study abroad programs. So that type of thing is a possibility anywhere in the country.

      International development requires lots of international travel, but to developing countries. Many implementors (both for profit and non profit) are located in the DC metro area. But Mercy Corps is in Oregon, CARE is HQ’d in Atlanta, RTI and FHI 360 are in the Research Triangle area for example.

      2. Kate*

        I’ve worked a lot with university international education offices. Yes, they do get to travel a lot, but man, is the work ever brutal.

        The batch we were dealing with would do two days in each country x7 in a two week period, 15-18 hour days. One day would typically be spent at a huge education fair and the second day would be going from high school to high school, 8-10 schools in a day.

        No huge surprise that they were all young, single, and EXHAUSTED. And because these education tours cost the universities a small fortune, more and more of them were contracting out the roles to educational consulting companies, so one rep would represent 3-4 universities at once.

    6. Collie*

      This gets a little deeper into the field weeds, but depending on how much you want to invest, there are some companies that do foreign investment (USAID or World Bank, for example). Those are both DC-based, but I’m sure there are others around the country. I think project managers sometimes do go on trips, but you’re more likely to be traveling if you’re doing something that’s more specific-skill-based (that sounds way judgy when I don’t intend it at all, I just can’t think of the word or phrase that describes what I’m thinking of — foot, meet mouth).

      1. ZSD*

        Oh yes, I have a friend who works for the world bank and travels to various parts of Africa all the time. And he actually gets to see the countries he goes to because he’s out in the field teaching people to use a certain tool.

        1. Collie*

          My S/O used to work there and traveled three or four times a year (Africa and Eastern Europe, primarily, but a bit of Asia, too). I wonder if they knew each other. Small world!

    7. Caledonia*

      What about university recruitment? It depends where you want to travel as they would be targeting prominently areas such as Asia for the students to come over and study or study on a campus there (some UK universities have campuses world-wide). Otherwise there are other event planning type jobs but may not have the travel element.

    8. Ella*

      If you’re working in program development in study abroad, for either a university or a third party program provider (like API), then they do international travel. Also, alumni travel positions at universities. But not all positions in any of those fields have international travel- it depends on your job level, and your responsibilities.

    9. Beancounter in Texas*

      My step-mother-in-law works for a bank services company that manages ATM networks and clearing houses for banks. She moved into a role that teaches other project managers and the bulk of her job is traveling internationally.

      Maybe a personal assistant for a jet setter?

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I once met somebody who was one of 2 PAs for a Middle Eastern Bigwig. If memory serves, one PA travelled with him for his meetings, the other remained in the location (she had relocated) to handle his personal/family organisation.

          1. vpc*

            Yeah…I am a minion who interacts with other minions, and relatively frequently those other minions are PAs to someone seriously high up. They universally burn out after less than a year. Part of that is the always-on nature of the job (whaddaya mean it’s not ready yet? it’s 6am and I sent it to you at 3:30! no way should that have taken more than 45 minutes!) and the high-profile personalities they’re surrounded with.

            Pepper is awesome, and I thoroughly enjoy her boss as portrayed by RDJ. Do I want to be her, or deal with him? H to the NO.

    10. MsMaryMary*

      Are you interested in short term travel, or long term, or either? There can be longer term (~6 months or more) opportunities with companies who have sent work offshore. Generally the only qualifications are familiarity with the work being done, willingness to coach and train others, and the desire to live abroad for several months.

      1. Sunflower*

        I could be interested in both. I’ve thought about living abroad at some point down the line(have done absolutely no research on it so no idea what it entails) but thought this might be a good starting point.

    11. Raytheon Person*

      Aerospace and defense frequently sends people to overseas customers and suppliers. Many have turned more to the international market since sequestration, so that’s a plus for you. Many have foreign offices or extended overseas assignments. Foreign language skills are a plus. I work for Raytheon, and I’m pretty sure I’ve been hearing from my supply chain and contracts colleagues about open positions, if you’re inclined.

    12. Elle the new Fed*

      World Bank and UN have event planning roles on occasion for conferences mostly. Also a lot of internation orgs will indicate how much time is travelling and where to. If you have interest in development work, there are a lot of NGOs that do field visits to projects. One title that comes to mind is Business Development Manager.

      My experience is similar to others in this thread. Although I do work with international colleagues, I am parked in DC at our main office mostly interfacing with the American public. I had assumed working with an international org would automatically mean higher likelihood of intl travel but it’s only some roles going into the field. Sigh.

    13. AliceBD*

      Depending on your role, one of the big tech companies. A close relative is a computer engineer at a company you will be familiar with. He travels to London for a couple of weeks a few times a year, and is currently in Paris for a few days for work after being in London for work. He works normal work days and then has evenings and weekends to see the cities. He has also traveled around the US for his position.

      2. OhNo*

        This seems like a pretty good bet to me. I know two different people who work in computer security (what exactly they do I’m not sure – I tend to glaze over whenever they try to explain it to me), and they seem to travel pretty regularly for regular work and for conferences. Just judging from their stories, it sounds like they usually get to see some of the city they’re visiting, too, since their jobs can usually be done in a 9-5 schedule.

    14. AcidMeFlux*

      I once gave a language/communication training course to some doctors in Mallorca, Spain. I saw the airport, my room, and the classroom. I hear the hotel had lovely spa service and beautiful gardens. Maybe I’ll go back some day as a guest and see for myself, but since I was working from 6 a.m to midnight, I kind of missed out…

    15. Xarcady*

      Well, my brother’s in the Army and he has spent 23 of the past 29 years out of the US. And not in war zones, either. (It’s a running joke in my family that everyone who got out of the military after 5-10 years, or only did active reserve duty, has been in war zones more than once. The lifer, nope, not ever.)

      1. the gold digger*

        Sometimes the military will send you abroad. My dad was career military. He enlisted in the Coast Guard after high school, then went to college on the GI Bill, then joined the air force. In his career, he was stationed in Guam, Spain, and the Panama Canal Zone and had to make frequent, long trips to Germany, Italy, and Turkey. Oh yeah – and he spent a year in Vietnam.

        If you don’t mind being shot at (or exposed to Agent Orange) as part of your job description, don’t mind spending a lot of time away from your family, want to make almost no money at all and have Congress, which consists of people who make a lot more money, including pension, for work that is not as dangerous, try to cut your retirement benefits dramatically, the military is for you.

    16. Bex*

      So I think you might need to consider why you want the international travel. Because frankly, in most jobs, it really isn’t as glamorous as it might seem. My husband LOVES to travel and he used to get cranky that I’m always heading off to Bogota or Mexico City or NYC. So I started sending him pictures of the windowless conference rooms, generic hotels, and crappy airport meals. And the agendas that start at 8am and end at 10pm, because if they are paying for you to be there they are going to squeeze as much in as possible. Including exhausting working dinners, followed by a few hours of email at 11pm when you finally get back to your bland hotel and have to catch up with everything that happened while you were in meetings.

      Obviously there are some positions that are easier or might have time for sightseeing, but those are few and far between.

      1. Sunflower*

        Trust me, I find work travel to be far from glamorous. I’m an event planner so I’m usually the first one in the conference room and the last to leave! I traveled in my last job domestically (usually 3 days trips) and I actually travel more frequently in my current job(shorter trips) so I don’t intend to use it as a vacation or way to see the world. I’m usually exhausted by the time I’m home but I find it rather energizing while I’m there and a welcome change from sitting at my desk all day. I knew I wanted my next job to include more travel and figured I’d try to spread my wings across seas

      2. the gold digger*

        True. I had to go to Dubai twice. It’s a ten-hour time difference. They start their work week on Sunday. So you leave the US on Friday, arrive there late Saturday night, and have to go to work Sunday morning after trying to sleep through jet lag and the 4:46 a.m. call to prayer, which is completely audible even when you are on the tenth floor of the hotel.

        You spend the day at work trying to stay awake and then get stuck going to work dinners. You do this until Thursday, which is when you fly back to the US, arriving Friday – and your boss expects you at work on Monday.

  5. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    I have a new manager, and am currently rolling around making joyful noises at the breath of fresh air she may bring us. She has given my my Very First Project.

    This distracts us from an upcoming Away Day. We’re being bribed with fancy breakfasts. So, commenters, what are your MUST EAT/NEVER EAT at working breakfasts? (It is all going to end with egg on my blouse. And face.)

    1. Brigitha*

      Dude, just get the smoked salmon eggs benedict and bring an extra blouse. I don’t mess around with breakfast. Enjoy!

      1. Bob Barker*

        Eggs royale, please! (Eggs benedict with salmon instead of Canadian bacon.) That way you can make a Pulp Fiction joke about Eggs Royale with cheese.

    2. Lauren*

      I never use pepper since I fear a piece getting stuck in my teeth. Same for cooked greens (like spinach in an omelet).

    3. orchidsandtea*

      Bring a machine-washable sweater to wear over your fancy blouse (just at breakfast) and wet wipes in your purse to wipe your face discreetly.

      I eat anything that looks delicious and I’m not allergic to. Breakfast is the best.

    4. Rincat*

      I try to avoid things I have to eat with my hands, like sandwiches. I don’t like having to constantly wipe my hands, especially since I’m always on the computer. As for clothing – bring stain sticks and an extra shirt. I work at a university and have a stash of school shirts I keep in my office, since t-shirts are okay if they are school shirts.

      Breakfast is the best meal of the day, so I am very jealous.

        1. Christopher Tracy*

          I don’t eat breakfast unless it’s a weekend and/or I didn’t eat dinner the night before. *shrugs* I don’t get hungry early in the morning, and I won’t force myself to eat anything just because people say you’re supposed to.

          1. Honeybee*

            Yeah, me either. I love breakfast, but I don’t eat it on the weekdays. I don’t get hungry until around 11 am and at that point it’s better to just wait for lunch.

            I usually eat a nice big one on the weekend days though.

            1. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

              Same here! I have to be up for at least 3 hours before I’m hungry. I do love brunch on the weekends though.

            2. Christopher Tracy*

              Ha! That’s the exact time I get hungry. When 11 roles around, I role out to lunch. And then I’m hungry again by 3.

    5. LCL*

      A granola/protein bar or pastry or piece of cheese in my pocket, in case they have done something to breakfast so it is inedible. Cause it makes me want to cry when I am promised a treat breakfast, skip my home breakfast in hungry anticipation, then get to the venue and find that everything has been covered and stirred in with onions. Green onion garnish is one of the signs that evil is afoot in our world…

    6. Ayla K*

      Stay away from anything with poppy seeds (bagels, scones) or sesame seeds. You’ll be fighting those things out of your teeth all day. And skip the onion-chive cream cheese.

    8. Lady Blerd*

      No restrictions, I just go with what I usually eat when I’m eating at a breakfast place ie French toast, pancakes or a western omelette, all with sausage links as a side. Sometimes I got for a bagel with smoked salmon

    10. Elizabeth West*

      MUST EAT: *channels Leslie Knope and Ron Swanson* Waffles and bacon!! :)

      NEVER EAT: Anything too spicy, because then I have to ask for milk and it makes me look like a special snowflake. I only have sriracha on my eggs at home, where I can pour a bucket of it.

  6. Scared*

    ​
    I wrote a couple times recently about my new job:
    here and here. Under different names both times because I’ve been trying to stay anonymous.

    I finally quit on Tuesday. This was after having a serious talk with them a couple weeks before about my frustrations. Some things improved but only slightly. There was a general plan to fire the awful, scary employee prior to me quitting, but on the day I told them I was quitting, they came back to me later in the day and basically said “you’re going to fire him today. here’s his last check, here’s his severence and release”. My boss and I fired him. This guy legitimately scares me. He didn’t make a scene and it was uneventful, but I’m still concerned that he’ll sit on it and anger will build. And one of the temps who works for me said something the next day like “I hope he doesn’t come back with a gun.” This guy is military, really into his guns, has a major chip on his shoulder, blames everyone, never takes responsibility and is a misogynistic. His email is now being forwarded to me and last night I got his Youtube subscriptions update email and it was all stuff about snipers and guns – I know it’s not a crime to be into that stuff… but still worries me in light of everything else.

    I have told my boss that it concerns me and I told my boss about the comment the temp made. But he is very dismissive of it. I gave a pretty generous notice (4 weeks – 33% of my time employed there!) and now I’m questioning it. I really don’t know what to do. I can’t work remotely 100% of the time but I really have zero interest of being in that building. Am I overreacting? Is there anything I even can do about this besides choosing not to go back to work? We’re a small company, and you can get into our building easily because there is no security measures taken (plus his girlfriend and mother in law work there). He hasn’t broken the law or done anything concrete that I could report him for to anyone else.

    What do I do?

    1. Lisa*

      Reconsider your notice period. Tell them today that your safety concerns are paramount, and clearly THEIR safety concerns were a part of them deciding that YOU should fire him – knowing that you would be the target and leaving soon anyway – removing the target of any anger that may be there. What a horrible thing to do. Tell them that and cut the notice off. Give them another week, but part WFH.

      I’d also cut off your social media for a few months too – suspend everything – including LinkedIn. Better safe than sorry. Honestly having the GF and her mom work there is prob a good thing to divert anything potentially happening, but what if the GF breaks up with him? That would be another good reason to get out of that building – put a lock on the door, buzzer, or at least a camera. Yes, not all people who like guns are going to hurt people, but the aggressiveness in the past would make anyone worry about firing someone without knowing the gun stuff.

      1. Salyan*

        I can totally understand the OP’s concerns, seeing the past history of this ex-employee. That being said, I would like to point out that MOST people who like guns are not going to hurt people. The subset of violent offenders+guns is actually pretty small, considering the overall population of gun owners, and those that do choose violence would do so whether they have access to a gun, a knife, or a baseball bat.

        1. Anna*

          I’m not disagreeing with this, but I am saying that in this particular case Scared has seen other worrisome signs and that the ease of access to guns in this specific case means they have a right to be worried and shouldn’t have those worries dismissed.

      2. Zoe*

        Seriously, work from home. You’re not going to be able to focus at work anyway. The issue isn’t that he likes guns, the issue is that he likes guns AND is a scary guy with a reason to want to hurt you.

        Highly recommend reading The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker if you haven’t already. The author is a security expert who talks about how to trust your gut instincts and keep yourself safe.

    2. Xarcady*

      Call the police, on the non-emergency number. They will have advice for you. Seriously, your manager/HR should be doing this, but since they won’t, take charge and call them yourself.

      1. AnonAnalyst*

        Yes, absolutely. My father had a case like this with someone he managed, and the company was extremely concerned that he would come back and do something. The police department was very helpful and spent quite some time talking through different scenarios and tips to keep the office safe – and this was 20 years ago, before this kind of thing was (unfortunately) more commonplace. I’m sure they will have some practical advice to share.

        Frankly, if it were me, I would do what Future Analyst suggested, but if you want to try to work out your notice period with some days onsite, the police might have some suggestions you can implement yourself.

      2. OhBehave*

        Years ago my husband had to fire a guy who he thought could possibly retaliate in some manner. They hired an off duty cop to sit in the lobby for several days until things calmed down.

    3. Hope*

      Make a plan for what you will/would do if he got back into the building (1st–how to run out, 2nd–how to hide if you can’t run, 3rd–how to fight back if you can’t hide). Try to keep out of the building as much as you can. If you’ve got HR, talk to them about your concerns and show them the YouTube subscriptions update.

      It might all be an overreaction and nothing will come of it, but it’s the kind of thing that should be taken seriously by those above you. And it might be a good thing that the girlfriend works there, as maybe he’s less likely to show up ready for a shooting rampage while she’s there.

    5. animaniactoo*

      I don’t have a better resource, but I would say that you might be able to get one – or just straight up advice – by calling the National Domestic Violence hotline and laying this out for them, and ask them for advice. 800-799-SAFE.

    6. Lauren*

      I honestly don’t know. But just reading your update scares me too. And I realize that if it was me in your position, I think I would go to my boss and say that while I do not want to act in an unprofessional manner that my safety–which I view as “at risk” now–trumps all. And I’d apologize and make my last day today. There is nothing, not etiquette, not professional norms, not even ending a job, that can take priority over safety–and this situation is one of those.

    7. Future Analyst*

      Woah, that’s definitely scary. If you’re okay walking away, tell your boss you’ll need to work remotely for the remainder of your time there, and if he tells you that’s not possible, have that be your last day. I know it can be hard to make such a decision if finances are tight, but someone like that would scare the daylights out of me, so if it were up to me, I’d just never go back to the office. Good luck!

    8. Blueismyfavorite*

      A gun hobby does not mean that he’s a murderous psycho. Plenty of law abiding citizens own guns. Being ex-military also doesn’t mean he’s a murderous psycho and that actually an offensive judgment to make against vets. So yes, I think you’re overreacting. He’s rude but he hasn’t threatened you. It’s a big leap to go from rude to murder. But that said you should take safety precautions. Have someone walk you to your car, etc.

      1. SystemsLady*

        The gun part wouldn’t have scared them if it weren’t for the other behavior.

        Nowhere was it said all gun owners act like that. On my end I know plenty of gun enthusiasts (vet and police) who can control their rage – I would never, ever assume they would go on a shooting spree just because they watch gun videos and own several.

        1. Scared*

          Yes – exactly. I know plenty of people who own guns and are vets and I’ve never even thought they’d go on a killing spree. He’s been more than rude to me – he hasn’t verbally threatened me, no, but I think there are plenty of instances of violence where there was no verbal threat beforehand. Him being in the military doesn’t really concern me as much as the easy access to guns. It was the other employee who expressed concern who mentioned the guns and military and the hostile attitude. All that combined with just being fired is what concerns me.

          That being said, it’s fair if you think I’m overreacting. I know it’s a possibility, in spite of others sharing the same concerns.

          1. JLK in the ATX*

            To Scared:
            As a Veteran, I found your statement ‘he’s in the military’ offensive, rude and not necessary to the description of your experience.

            Being in the military doesn’t mean he has any access to firearms or access to any time of equipment. Perhaps he has some at home, but those are personal items. And it’s not easy access to firearms if his are registered and he has license to carry them (if that’s allowed in your city/state)

            “It was the other employee who expressed concern who mentioned the guns and military and the hostile attitude. ” No, you stated this. Your reference to the temp, was their saying, “I hope he doesn’t come back with a gun.”

            As for overreacting, only you know that. Contacting the police is a bit over reaching, but they’ll tell you that should you that you are/n’t within your rights to explore legal options.

            Overall, your painting (male) military members in this light furthers the issues we (Vets) deal with re: work. It’s not like we don’t already have to bend over backwards to convince employers to hire us over their fear we’re hopped up on combat and PTSD.

            1. Scared*

              you’re right. I’m sorry my comments were offensive and insensitive. My biggest concerns are legitimately his craziness and his constant talk about his firearms combined with his termination. It was ignorant of me to even mention that he’s in the military – I apologize.

        2. Blueismyfavorite*

          And I didn’t say she thought all gun owners act like that. I understood her point the same way you did. However I think him being ex-military and a gun hobbyist isn’t the salient point. Her fear of him is. She’s afraid of him so she should take steps to protect herself. But she shouldn’t horriblize the situation either because she’s only going to cause anxiety for herself fearing the million to one chance he’ll shoot her.

      2. Scared*

        Correct. I said I know that stuff isn’t a crime but in light of everything else, it concerns me. And obviously concerns other people.

    9. SystemsLady*

      I met a guy like that, and had a moment with him that was reminiscent of a moment that drew impossible for some in the audience to stifle laughter in a recent political debate. It wasn’t funny to me, of course.

      But you know what? Everybody around supported me, and offers were made by people he hadn’t treated aggressively to boot him off the property immediately (he was a contractor). He didn’t get a second day.

      Asking YOU to fire an employee who treated you like that!? That’s ridiculous! You’re right to be concerned for your personal safety, and angry HR or your manager didn’t handle the firing. Either they’re completely oblivious, or he treated everybody like that and was kept only because they were scared (keeping him longer only increases the danger/his rage, so awful thinking on their part if that was the case). +Ning do whatever you need to do to feel safe, and I hope your next job is a lot more supportive.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      Does your building have security? Bring them in ASAP so they can be alert of the guy and potential trouble as he has been fired.

      Call local police. Same thing, give them a head’s up that said person was recently fired and could be a potential problem. Consider filing a restraining order against said person.

      Take all precautions, especially in these first few weeks. Walk out with others, park near door. Try not to be unescorted when arriving/leaving work.

      If you do have/ consider arming yourself. Hate to say this, but I would (as I do feel comfortable with guns (Marine dad!)) especially if I felt I had an enemy like this. But this is certainly a personal decision.

      Hopefully nothing will come of it, but given many recent events, it is wise to take all precautions to stay safe.

      1. Scared*

        No security and it’s accessible by the public as well. I legitimately have considered getting a gun and I’m really not a fan of them. I’m nervous about doing anything, too, because I worry my employer will react poorly. I know I can just quit without notice, but ugh the whole situation has just been a nightmare. I wish I’d never taken this job.

        It’s in a very busy neighborhood so walking to my car, I’m never really “alone” so at least there’s that…

        1. Gene*

          Don’t get a gun unless you are also willing to train with it as soon as you have it.

          The Four Rules of Firearms Handling
          by Jeff Cooper

          Rule 1
          All guns are always loaded

          Rule 2
          Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not prepared to destroy
          You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

          Rule 3
          Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
          This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

          Rule 4
          Be sure of your target and what is beyond it
          You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

          1. Scared*

            Oh – I would definitely train. I haven’t the vaguest idea what to do with a gun and I have a healthy respect for / fear of them, knowing what they’re capable of.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I don’t think you need one at this point–besides, it would take time to do training, and guns aren’t a magical protection against harm, no matter what people would like to think. I guarantee this dude has way more experience with it than you have.

              I second the advice to let the police know and see if they have any advice, plus the advice to ask your boss if you can work from home or let this be your last day. Because frankly, they SUCK making you do the firing. I would have told them to stick it and walked out over that alone (but that’s me).

              And please keep us up to date.

              1. Scared*

                It caused a fight. They argued they I should do it since I was the one having problems with him and was his manager. I argued that clearly they thought it was an organization-wide problem if they wanted to fire him, knowing that I’m quitting anyway. They essentially hired me TO fire him because they didn’t want to it themselves (I didn’t know this – I wasn’t hired to manage anyone and this is my first time doing it.)

                In the end, both of us were present for the firing. My boss did most of the talking but I was the one that had to address his performance issues (I didn’t even think we needed to get into specifics because I’ve addressed the performance issues as they occurred… over and over). I so wish I had walked out. They need me more than I need them. I don’t know why I didn’t.

                I’ll ask if I can work from home. I have a feeling it will cause a fight and a guilt trip and just all sorts of drama as usual. It sucks because I feel like I’m the drama queen with all the issues i’ve had since starting!

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  You are not a drama queen. Please get this part, write it down if you have to. They set YOU up in a very nasty way. You had no way of knowing, you have done nothing wrong here.

                2. Polka Dot Bird*

                  I mean, if they hired you because they were too incompetent to manage him, then the problem is definitely not you. They handed you a broken situation.

            2. DragoCucina*

              Thanks to Gene for outlining the essential rules.

              Scared, there isAnother factor. Unless you are prepared to carry all the time you may not want to make a commitment to a firearm. You may be better off with a pocket size container of pepper spray. It’s not perfect but is a non-lethal step in self protection. I second the working from home recommendation.

    11. neverjaunty*

      No, you are not overreacting. Your boss is dismissing, your workplace is obnoxious (really, telling you that YOU have to fire Scary Guy on YOUR last day?!), and this employee is ten pounds of problems in a two pound bag.

      Also, keep this in mind: Your company wouldn’t even force this guy to punch his time card. Why do you think they’re suddenly going to grow a spine when it comes to making you show up physically in the building, when you’ve already quit?

      Shorten your notice period and work remotely if you’re more comfortable with it, but you have every right to refuse to go in physically, and they’re clearly not going to do anything about it.

      1. Scared*

        What would be reasonable to expect them to do about it? I’m curious because is there even anything they can do besides pretend to take my concerns seriously? Or tell me I can work from home the rest of my notice period? I felt like they made me fire him the day I quit as punishment, honestly. My husband didn’t want me to be a part of firing him from the beginning becuase HE was scared and my husband doesn’t really get scared. Yet another reason I quit … but apparently I had to do it anyway.

        1. neverjaunty*

          As you note, they didn’t have a problem having the police there when your boss was worried about his safety! If they don’t take you seriously (and they clearly don’t), you can’t depend on them to step up security, act if this guy’s relatives start harassing you, or anything else.

    12. Elisabeth*

      Has anyone here read The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker? This feels like a very classic case that would be represented in the book. Please trust your gut. “I hope he doesn’t come back with a gun” is a very clear warning sign from someone who wasn’t even his manager. If this was a job that you needed financially to survive, I would consider it a really tricky situation, but you’ve already quit – what do you have to lose? A reference from a job you hated? (It sounds like you’ve had previous jobs that went well and lasted for respectable amounts of time).

      I agree with the other commenters — tell them you’re changing your notice period, and work from home as much as possible until it’s up. If you’re feeling that sense of fear, it’s not worth it to ignore.

      1. Scared*

        I have read that book! Also, even though my boss is being dismissive now, he apparently thought it was worthwhile to have police outside while we were firing him (but told them to leave before the guy even left the building and didn’t escort him out…..). And we’re a small company so getting the police to wait outside isn’t a normal company procedure. I mean, I can’t guarantee he’ll do anything obviously, but I definitely don’t want to risk my life or safety for a job I already loathe.

        1. Zoe*

          Holy cow…I have never heard of having police outside for a firing. This guy is bad news.

          Don’t ask, TELL them that you’ll be working from home for the duration of your notice period for your personal safety, and if that won’t work for them, you wish them well.You can always make up for a lost paycheck, but you can’t come back from the dead. Don’t go back to that office!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            The cop thing happened at one place I worked, but the dude had been belligerent and apparently made threats. That’s not to say anyone who makes threats will do something, but it’s wise for a company to take it seriously.

    13. Scared*

      Guys – I legitimately apologize for the insensitive and ignorant military comment. And I recognize that people have a right to own guns and that owning a gun doesn’t mean the person will be violent. My concern is not with guns – it is with this individual who happens to have easy access to guns. I’m not scared of every person who owns a gun. I don’t want this to turn into a debate about gun ownership and people who own guns.

      1. CMT*

        You’ve made it really clear that a passion for guns != scary psycho murderer and that you have other, legitimate reasons to be afraid of this man. I don’t think you need to apologize.

      2. Maria*

        It’s ridiculous that the PC police are lambasting you while you are frightened for your well-being. Ignore that nonsense.

        1. neverjaunty*

          I agree that the criticism is ridiculous, but I confess to some amusement at a vigilant defense of pro-gun people now being “PC”.

        2. Alex*

          I was under the impression that the commenters here were for the most part a part of the leftist “PC” crowd. In any case, people weren’t criticizing her for being concerned for her well-being. People were critical of her for automatically equating dangerous people with military service. She has since apologized for it. It is not “nonsense” for people to want to correct her. If you for example want to correct someone for example, who posts something negative about women then that’s fine. If someone wants to correct ignorant statements about the military, just leave them alone if you can’t come up with anything nice to say. Stop with the double standards!

          1. Not Here*

            She wasn’t making an ignorant statement about the military, she was complaining about a specific person with military experience who seems threatening. That is all.

    14. CMT*

      I would be scared, too. Can you make it work financially if you leave your job immediately? That’s probably what I would try to do.

      1. Scared*

        I can, yep! I wonder if you can collect unemployment if you quit because you feel you’re in an unsafe situation. Probably not, though. but even without that, I can quit. I mostly feel bad about doing it because I feel like it’s unprofessional, but they clearly don’t care about protecting me so why should I care about protecting their interests?

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Not a lawyer–I think it depends on what state you’re in, but sometimes you can, if you can prove that the company didn’t take an unsafe situation seriously.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Be sure to mention this story when you apply. Give the people at unemployment the opportunity to discuss this with you at any rate.

  7. Brigitha*

    I need a reality check.

    I work part time as a personal assistant to an artist.

    The other day she sat me down to talk about a recurring issue she noticed with me: I often forget small, non-work related things. Examples:

    She let me borrow a baking dish which I forgot to take with me.
    I left my sunglasses behind in her studio.
    I forgot my laptop power cord at home (this didn’t impact my work: there were others I could have borrowed, but ended up not needing to).

    In fairness, this is something i’ve noticed about myself for years. I often leave the house without my coffee cup, or will remember as I’m pulling into my garage that I was going to go to the store on my way home. It really annoys me when this happens. In the past, I’ve kind of beat myself up about this, but lately I’ve tried to relax and realize that I’m an imperfect human, and I haven’t failed at life if I have to make an extra trip to the store.

    In the discussion she did tell me that this wasn’t a problem with my work, and that she appreciates how organized I am and that I get everything done so quickly. However, my boss obviously thinks this was a big enough deal to bring up, and her discussion with me included phrases like “as adults, we get to change the things we don’t like about ourselves.” and “maybe there are deeper issues around leave-taking we may have based on our past.” She encouraged me to stop and take another look behind me when I leave the room. It was a bit … patronizing? Maternal? I don’t know just weird.

    So, on the one hand, I can see where it might be worrying to notice a pattern of absentmindedness in your assistant. On the other hand, I don’t want to have to add this to my list of things to worry about. I’m legit afraid of forgetting something now, and I hate the extra anxiety it’s giving me.

    So … do I bring this back up with her? Do I just move forward and hope it doesn’t become a big issue? What would I even say? “Your close scrutiny of my occasional forgetfulness is making me hyper vigilant and stressing me out?”

    1. Murphy*

      If it’s not a problem with your work, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. It sounds like she was trying to be helpful, if being a bit weird about it.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I appreciate that you are trying to help me by bringing this up. It’s something I’ve noticed myself and hate, and I likely will work on at some point in the future. For right now however, I think it’s more important to focus on being okay with being imperfect and stop beating myself up when it happens, so that’s my main goal at the moment.”

    3. Kelly L.*

      Ugh, that would annoy me too. Especially the royal we. Let me guess, she used that “I’m talking to a kindergartner” voice? I think if it’s not work stuff being forgotten, she should take a looooot of steps back.

      1. Brigitha*

        I think there’s a little of this, but she wasn’t being super gross about it. She is used to having a couple young apprentices around, and I think she likes giving the younger people life advice. I’m the first actual employee she’s had in a while and I’m 35 so I think she doesn’t quite realize that the boundary lines between us should be different.

    4. MacGirl*

      Well, first of all, this conversation has everything to do with her and nothing to do with you.
      You are busy. You may forget non-work related things, but you are obviously a high performer and are great at what you do. Her observations of your “personal habits” seem to suggest that she is probably more of a perfectionist (or possibly that she is projecting her desire to be more put together on you by scrutinizing what little things you forget).
      You just keep being you. If your habits upset you, then you change them. But I don’t think you are in danger of losing your job or anything.
      As for whether or not to follow up with her about this, I would just ignore it unless she brings it up.

    5. Lily*

      If it isn’t something that is having an adverse effect on your performance, it was kind of odd of her to bring it up. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth making an effort to improve, but that also doesn’t mean you should stress out.

      Maybe you could make a short list of a few strategies to try to combat this problem of yours, and try to implement them one at a time. For example, maybe one week you can say to yourself, “This week, I will pause for thirty seconds as I’m walking out the door to review if I’ve forgotten my computer charger.” And then don’t think about this issue for the rest of the day.

    6. fposte*

      What would you hope to achieve by bringing it back up with her?

      I’m not asking that rhetorically; I lean toward letting it go myself, but maybe there’s something I haven’t thought of. If it’s for her to take back what she said or apologize or acknowledge it was too personal, I wouldn’t do it, because you’re not likely to get that; if it’s for her to reassure you that your work is okay, I’d raise that as a question on its own based on her intervention (“Given our conversation last week, are there work areas you’re seeing me underperforming in? While that seemed to be more a personal conversation, I want to check if there were also relevant work areas you’d like to see improvement in”).

      1. Brigitha*

        The thing is, it didn’t bother me much at first. Then yesterday she asked me get a deposit ready for the bank, then a couple hours later told me she was just going to do it herself because she was going into town, and then I internally freaked out wondering if she’s going to count this against me. I would hope to achieve an understanding that unless there’s an actual measurable problem, there’s no need for me to have this level of stress and worry.

        1. Beancounter in Texas*

          Don’t read into her actions. She said she would take it because she was going into town, so leave it at that.

        2. fposte*

          That sounds to me like an attempt to outsource anxiety control to somebody who shouldn’t be in charge of it, though. I wouldn’t.

    7. Moonsaults*

      This certainly sounds like she’s addressing you as a concern for your forgetfulness, however she’s a turd because it’s actually very much something that some folks cannot just “fix” or “grow out of”, it has nothing to do with “becoming an adult” or anything of that sort.

      Your anxiety relief has to come from inside of you though, as someone who has severe anxiety as well, I understand why you’re fixating on it. Talking to her will not help you, you have to find coping mechanisms to remind yourself.

      1. Brigitha*

        Yes, this was exactly where I was … until THE TALK. Sigh. I’m sure it will smooth over and my anxiety level will normalize. I think it’s effecting me so much because it hit a little close to home.

        1. SystemsLady*

          As somebody who has ADHD/worked her whole life learning “don’t forget the thing”/has a case of abnormal absentmindedness that’s being treated:

          Forgetting all of those things is perfectly normal. I still forget little trinkets like that all the time! Unless you want to make comprehensive “bring to work” and “return from work” lists and check them every, single, day (overkill if you ask me)…this is going to happen sometimes.

          If I’m assuming correctly her studio is in her home…hmm, I wonder why she doesn’t ever have these problems…

          1. Brigitha*

            Part of why it’s so galling is that she does have forgetfullness problems. It’s one of the reasons she hired me. She’ll forget entire conversations we’ve had and the conclusions we came to. It’s one of the reasons I write everything down for work.

            1. knitcrazybooknut*

              If she has these issues, that conversation was about her, not you.

              I can’t stress this enough. She’s trying to help you not make the mistakes she has made in the past. Unfortunately, any advice that involves a time machine is automatically invalid.

              Don’t add her worries about her own stuff to your back. Thank her for her well-intentioned kindness, and let it all go.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Ahhh…. I am not surprised here. She is projecting herself on to you.

              If you basically like her and everything else is okay, I think I would wait and see if she mentions it again. IF she mentions it again, (she may forget, not trying to be funny here) then you could say something like:

              “You know I thought about what you said. And you are right there are many ways to practice mental discipline. Remembering small things is one of those ways to exercise the mind. Since I see you forget things too, I thought we could trade some tricks and tips for improving our ability to carry though on some of the smaller things we forget. For example, I decided to put a clip on my key ring. I can clip my keys to my purse once I arrive at work and later arrive at home. This will help to cut down the amount of time I spend looking for my keys. When you come up with a good idea let me and we can keep sharing back and forth, you see? It might actually get to be fun.”

              This might work IF you have an otherwise good relationship with her. Take a collaborative tone and see how it goes. Only you know for certain if this idea might work in your setting.

          2. TootsNYC*

            some practical advice: instead of lists, have a physical place.

            A basket, your tote bag, whatever. And when you set something down (like that baking dish), you put it in that “place.” When you finish using your computer at home, you put it and the cord in that “place.”

            (also: things that are truly important, like chargers, can be doubled-up; get one to be at work, and one at home, and one that floats in your tote bag (and label them) so you can eliminate the number of things you have to remember)

            Forgetting stuff like this is perfectly normal. Grownups do it all the time.

            And those grownups who don’t forget stuff have habits, and habits are something you can learn.
            Or they have workarounds.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Oh yeah. For years I had a “work basket”. I carried so much junk in my pockets that I had to have a place to put it all or it would not go to work with me the next day.
              It was kind of handy, I would throw letters in there that needed to be mailed. Some nights I would be really tired and notice my keys out of place, so I would toss them in the basket on the way to bed. It did help. My underlying issue was that this was a toxic job that I did not want to go to. But I still put stuff in my own way so I remember it. I think it is pretty normal not to remember the dozens of little things it takes to get through the day and we have to help ourselves remember.

            3. Trillian*

              I was born absent minded. If I am going to take something with me, it has to be attached to me or my bag. I have pouches, stuff-sacs, keystraps, clips. (If I ever become world dictator, I shall decree that women’s clothing is made with proper pockets so I will have somewhere to put small objects other than down.) I also have duplicates of things like power cords so the ones in my bag does not need to come out at home.

              And as for putting things back in the proper place — you gotta be kidding. Until I had the bright idea of putting labels on things with their destination. So now my kitchen scissors say ‘kitchen’, and they’ll find their way to their hook in the kitchen while I keep thinking about grep syntax, colonizing Europa, or composing a rebuttal to that person who is Wrong on the Internet.

      2. Thomas E*

        In my own case ( I have anxiety and depression treated by doctors) I found an increased amount of forgetfulness was part of the deal: it was a symptom of my disease which reduced when I treated the depression.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Great point.
          Grief also causes bucket loads of forgetfulness. Pretty normal to forget everything else BUT the thing we are sad about. In times of grief it’s not a bad idea to build a plan to help stay on track.

    8. Bend & Snap*

      That sounds totally condescending and unnecessary. If it’s not impacting your work, it’s not up for discussion.

    9. Manders*

      I ran out of the house without my engagement ring on today. I used to be a hyper-organized admin assistant, and I’m still the keeper of the to do list in my department. I really doubt this is a big deal–just normal human behavior. We’re not constantly inventorying the dozens of items we have in our bags and on our person at any given time, and sometimes that means things get misplaced.

      Your boss sounds like she’s giving advice because she enjoys giving advice, not because you need it.

      1. TootsNYC*

        agree. Also with the comments here that say it was condescending, esp. in wording. You ARE a grownup!

    10. Blue Anne*

      Urgh, I really don’t like the language she used. That’s just so condescending. And if it’s not affecting your work, why is it even her business? I’d let it go and hope it doesn’t come up again.

      For what it’s worth, though, my tendency to do stuff like that was flagged up when I was being assessed for learning differences. I have the same problem, bad enough that I’ve had to develop coping mechanisms like having a bowl by the door for my keys, or putting my passport on the coffee pot the night before a flight (because I know for SURE I’ll make coffee in the morning, so I’ll be sure to see and bring my passport). It was one of the big things mentioned when they eventually diagnosed me with mild dyslexia and dyspraxia. I think it would be stupid to infer that you have dyspraxia or something, but maybe that’s what your boss is trying to flag.

      1. SystemsLady*

        I had to develop the same mechanisms for ADHD (which also means they were only ever half successful, and I often chose that day not to check the obvious spot…sigh…).

        I think there’s reason to flag if keys or the laptop itself were the items frequently being forgotten, or it was the same minor item once per week. But a laptop charger that didn’t even end up being needed, sunglasses left on the table, and a dish to borrow (the latter two probably being out of the ordinary)? Wow.

        I’m sure you agree, but I’m more convinced this isn’t coming from a place of actually wanting to help Brigitha.

        1. Blue Anne*

          I totally agree. I’m just thinking… you often get jerky people who “are just trying being helpful!” Like my mother trying to convince my sister that her son is autistic because he’s having trouble with potty training. Concern-trolls.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I developed coping mechanisms and habits and safeguards just because I’m HUMAN.

        I truly don’t think that neurotypical people have less trouble forgetting stuff. They’re just better at developing the mechanisms that minimize it.

        1. Blue Anne*

          I agree. I also think it’s pretty silly that they used that to give me a diagnosis, honestly. I think the occupational health person was playing it up so I could get more allowances made for the issue I actually had – anxiety.

    11. Fabulous*

      I have these absentmindedness issues too! Two things I’ve found that combat it are to:

      1) Download a reminder app (I’ve been using one called Life Reminders for years) and use it to casually remind you of the little things. For example, I set a reminder for 5:00 pm if I want to stop somewhere after work, so that it’s fresh in my mind as I’m leaving, or snooze it for 10 minutes if I think I’ll forget by the time I get down to my car.

      2) If you think to yourself “I’m probably going to forget this” as soon as you think of something (like grabbing your coffee cup) DO IT NOW – YOU WILL FORGET. And then remember 4 hours later.

      1. SystemsLady*

        I only think this would have helped for the dish in terms of things that were specifically brought up, but I second the recommendation otherwise!

        Calendar apps are my lifeline.

      2. Kay E*

        +1 for calendar reminders.

        I do something like that (e.g. leave my lunch in the fridge at home) at least once … okay, twice … a week. Don’t take THE TALK to heart. She was trying to be helpful.

        Everyone has things they want to improve. I pick a few goals or things to work on each year. If this is something you want to work on, then create your plan for improving. If its not a priority or important to you, don’t worry about it.

      3. Snazzy Hat*

        I try my damnedest to do it now to avoid forgetting. If I can’t physically do the thing, I’ll leave a note near my purse or shoes that says what I need to do. For example, “Your water bottle is in the fridge” or “You were charging your phone. Go unplug it & put it in your bag.”

    12. ZVA*

      What she did sounds super condescending. If it’s truly not impacting your work, this is none of her business… It reminds me of something my high school art teacher once did to me: she called me into her studio during lunch to tell me that I needed to work on my self-confidence, that my foundation was the wrong color for my skin (!), etc. She was a wonderful woman and meant well but the way she went about giving me this (unasked-for) advice? Sooo inappropriate.

      I wouldn’t let it stress you out, and I wouldn’t bring it up with her again (the anxiety it’s causing is really your issue, not hers), but I would advise you to work on your absent-mindedness… I say this as someone who forgets little stuff like that myself all the time. Maybe make a checklist of the things you always need to take with you & consult it before leaving the house, even take another look around before you leave a room, as she advised… I think this is something you can improve upon w/ not too much effort and I encourage you to try—not because of what your employer said, but because I think you’ll be happier for it!

    13. Lady Blerd*

      As an incorrigeable forgetful person I feel you but it sounds more like it’s her own issue and not yours. If it’s not impacting your work, I’d let it go.

    14. Anna*

      You listed three things that are…normal. People forget things sometimes. It is not a sign of overall disorganization unless the entire world of everyone is disorganized.

      Your boss is being a jerk.

      1. AcidMeFlux*

        I’ve been reading through all these responses and I’m surprised at how relaxed a lot of the responses are. If your boss is micromanaging your not very important small incidences of forgetfulness, I’d distance myself from her emotionally. I have friends who have worked for people who were famous artists, or at least quite well known in their field and behavior like this is endemic. I don’t know if it’s just that people whose life and work revolve all around themselves can’t create boundries with others, or that they just like to control other people and their work gives them the opportunity. I gave up on being a slavely to the creative types a long time ago. Give me a nice organized accountant any day.

        1. AcidMeFlux*

          Or, as Mrs. Parker said

          Authors and actors and artists and such
          Never know nothing, and never know much.
          Sculptors and singers and those of their kidney
          Tell their affairs from Seattle to Sydney.
          Playwrights and poets and such horses’ necks
          Start off from anywhere, end up at sex.
          Diarists, critics, and similar roe
          Never say nothing, and never say no.
          People Who Do Things exceed my endurance;
          God, for a man that solicits insurance!
          Dorothy Parker

    15. Former Retail Manager*

      I would write this off mentally as eccentric artist because really, what artist employs a personal assistant? As another said, if it doesn’t impact your work, I’d just say thanks for pointing it out and let it ride. If she brings it up again though, I would point blank ask why she’s bringing it up if it doesn’t impact your work. And kudos to you for even being a personal assistant. I cannot imagine being employed in that capacity. Maybe I’ve just watched too much TV but it seems like it would be tough and seems like most of the people that employ personal assistants are high maintenance to say the least.

      1. Brigitha*

        Just wanted to say: it’s actually totally normal for a successful artist to have a personal and/or studio assistant. I aspire to have one myself when I am more established in my own right. Eccentricity and personality quirks are definitely things all artist assistants must deal with, but an artist who cannot keep an assistant isn not usually a successful one. The flamboyant hot messes you see on TV are not my experience of artists as a group.

    16. TootsNYC*

      I just saw this–you’re in good company!

      Obama forgot HIS cell phone and had to go back for it.

  8. Isben Takes Tea*

    If you can’t get enough management advice through Alison, my second-favorite management advice source is @PicardTips on Twitter: Captain Jean-Luc Picard’s wisdom distilled into easily digestible chunks that makes you wish you worked on the Enterprise.

    What fictional characters do you wish you worked for?

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      Who wouldn’t want to work for Mr. Fezziwig?

      Also, the Addams family always seemed like really nice people to work for.

      1. Trix*

        Hell yeah. I think Hermione would be a difficult boss for some people, but I think that our styles would really work well together. I’d be stoked to report to her.

    3. Rincat*

      I wish I worked for Captain Sisko on Deep Space Nine. It seems like a really interesting place to work, and he’s an awesome commander. Engineering team, please – the Chief is the best!

      2. Blue Anne*

        I would love to work for Sisko. or Picard.

        The thing that I love about Trek is the inherent trust Starfleet officers have in each other. You can be the only person on the ship having crazy visions of doom, or seeing that everyone else is going mad, and when you report it, you’ll be taken seriously.

      3. GlorifiedPlumber*

        I can imagine it now.
        Captain: “We need to get 10% more power from the engines or we’re all going to die!”
        Chief Engineer: “Sure, I’ll just bust out a completely revolutionary upgrade to a set of ultra-complicated engines that cost 1 trillion bars of latinum and collectively represent 1 billion man-hours of work by 32,000 people over 15 years. When do you need it? I could probably do this in a month… but you probably need it, ‘Just in time’ I bet?”
        Captain: “Yeah, you’ve got 3 hours!”
        Chief Engineer: “…”
        Chief Engineer to E1 Junior Engineer: “Hey can you get this 10% more power WARP engine project done in 2 hours? I’m going to need a powerpoint presentation on it too… and can you get it QA’d with Scottie before you’re done? He’s available by subspace conference.”
        Junior Engineer: “…”
        Junior Engineer to herself: “Ugh… I need a new job… I wonder if I can get 20% more money jumping ship to the Romulons. I heard they have free booze in the cafeteria.”

    4. Lillian Styx*

      Picard would be nice, but I think my boss is more like Janeway. Personable and tough, but makes some questionable decisions… Can’t get away from Trek now that it’s been brought up… I tell myself that a vulcan would be an ideal boss, but in reality that first unfeeling critique would definitely leave me in tears. But there would definitely be value in a boss who is not swayed by their emotions.
      I think I would like to work for Dr. McCoy. Personable with a sense of humor and strong moral fiber… no nonsense when it comes to his job. AND you could shoot the breeze with him over a mint julep if you were so inclined.

      1. Maxwell Edison*

        I’d work for McCoy in a heartbeat. Would never work for Kirk – my kid and I are watching what we call “Old Trek” and because I never watched much of it back in the day, it’s kind of a revelation what a jerk and a terrible captain Kirk is.

        1. Rincat*

          He really is! I’d work for any captain except him. Janeway would be awesome though…I’m currently watching through Voyager and have been impressed by her management skills.

    7. Jadelyn*

      Delenn from Babylon 5. No contest. “I cannot have an assistant who does not look up. You will be forever running into things.”

      1. Blue Anne*

        Yes! Delenn would be excellent to work for.

        Pretty much *anyone else* from that show… not so much.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Idk, I think Garibaldi (pre-season 4) might also be cool. Demanding, maybe, and it would take a particular personality type to keep up with him, but I could see it working.

    8. Manders*

      Sam Vimes didn’t seem like he’d be great at giving positive feedback, but he trusted his employees and brought out the best in them.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        I adore Sam Vimes and would work myself to death to earn a satisfactory nod in my direction from him.

    10. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Jed Bartlett for sure. An old coworker of mine and I used to compare various people we worked with to West Wing characters with our director (of course) as Pres. Bartlett. When Leo hired Ainsley Hayes, he said to her, “The President likes smart people who disagree with him,” and that actually was also very true of my old director. He was a fantastic boss.

    11. Red*

      That’s my favorite Twitter account! He’s definitely the fictional character i would love to work for. He seems to think everyone has inherent value and deserves his trust, and that’s a beautiful quality for a person to have – and an especially ideal one for a manager. I also like how he handles the cultural differences he encounters, such as with Worf and Ro. In general, I really look up to Picard.

    13. Rocketship*

      Malcolm Reynolds. Space pirate cowboy with a soft gooey center? Sign me up.

      Actually, I’d work for Nathan Fillion too, come to that.

      1. GlorifiedPlumber*

        Nice! Wife and I watched our first two episodes of Fireflay LAST NIGHT… so good, can’t believe I waited this long.

  9. New Girl*

    My SO works a part-time job waiting tables a few night a week. This week the schedule came out on Saturday and he got schedule for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday night. Sunday morning, he realized he had an appointment on Thursday so he asked a coworker to switch shifts with him. She happily accepted and he worked for her that same Sunday. Thursday rolls around and coworker texts him at noon (2 hours before the shift starts) saying that she can’t work for him anymore, she has a lot of school work to do. She says she texted the boss to let him know but her texts weren’t being delivered. Meanwhile, SO is a teacher so he can only check his messages a few times per day. He gets the message at 1 PM so he had to be the one to call and actually tell boss the situation.

    By that point he’s fuming because she had five days to figure out what her homework situation was. His appointment was flexible so if she had let him know a day prior her could have figured something out, rescheduled the appointment, asked someone else to work or pretty much anything. To make the story more complicated, SO works for my parent’s business.

    1. Do you think there is any course of action that parents should take against this employee?
    2. How do you think my SO should of handled it? He was obviously mad and originally typed out a long ranting text about how mad/upset he was that she screwed him over but decided it wasn’t the best idea and just said thanks.

    1. Sadsack*

      Now he knows she is not reliable, so don’t ask her again. Not sure what you mean by action against her. Do you want her punished somehow by your parents? I don’t think that makes sense.

      1. New Girl*

        I guess reprimanded. When she switched shifts, that shift became hers. The only person she contacted to say she couldn’t come in was my SO which isn’t helpful considering he’s not the manager/

        1. SophieChotek*

          At my coffee shop, this is the same. If manager knows (and approved shift) then this really is on her, but if manager never knew about shift switch, then it might be an issue (just a he said/she said) sort of thing…At my coffee shop, all switches have to be approved by the manager. Hope you get it worked out.

          1. ExceptionToTheRule*

            This is exactly how I handle shift swaps between employees: 1) they have to be approved & 2) once they’re approved that’s the new schedule.

        2. OhBehave*

          This is probably something that needs to be address by the owners (parents). What are their rules for swaps? In most places, once you have accepted the swap then it’s yours. If you can’t work YOU find your replacement.

    2. Dave*

      I don’t know from the restaurant business but was the schedule updated to reflect the swapped shift? My thinking would be that if they swapped shifts, the shift she couldn’t make was hers and it was her responsibility to fill it, not your SOs. I also think having too much homework is a terrible reason to miss a shift. As you say, she should know her workload and plan accordingly.

      1. H.C.*

        I can confirm that as a former foodservice worker – as long as you told the manager about your shift switch/substitution, it’s the new person’s responsibility to get that shift filled if he/she can’t be there after all.

      2. DragoCucina*

        This. Once I approve a swap it’s on the person who is to fill the shift. This type of nonsense is also why I rarely approve swaps anymore.

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      1. No, this between the employees. Unless this means that your SO will now be earning overtime and the owners don’t want to deal with that, I think they should stay out of it.
      2. I think your SO did right thing.

      I don’t think there’s any further course of action, really, except never switch with that co-worker again. (And your SO can reasonably never volunteer to help her out of a bind in the future. He doesn’t have to give the reason, and probably shouldn’t, but he no longer has any obligation to be accommodating.)

    4. Natalie*

      Unless your parents would normally get involved in this kind of shift-switching issue, no, they shouldn’t take any kind of action. Aside from being favoritism, is would likely negatively affect your SO’s relationship with his coworkers and his ability to get shifts covered and so on in the future.

      If I were him, I would have (hopefully) taken a middle ground between a long rant and nothing: “Hey, I wish you would have told me this sooner so I could have made alternate arrangements” or something.

      (And FWIW, you don’t actually know that she had five days to figure out her homework – stuff comes up last minute, needs to be reworked, takes longer than expected, etc)

      1. New Girl*

        I’m really stuck on the homework thing. I understand that things come up last minute and get switched around but she agreed to the shift and it was officially hers. Makes me wonder if she would do the same thing if was a day she was originally scheduled for.

        1. Natalie*

          Quite possibly, if it was something important enough that came up. She is out the money, after all, since your SO already worked her shift.

        2. MC*

          The excuse doesn’t matter. She’s shown herself to be less than reliable. If this is a single instance, accept that it was a bad excuse, likely not the actual excuse and let it go. If she’s bailing on the shifts the manager assigns, then yes, she should be warned and then if it continues let go.

    5. Sunflower*

      I think your parent’s need to come up with a formal plan for how switching shifts work. Switching shifts is sooooo common in restaurants. At my last job, there was a very set procedure. If you were switching/covering shifts, you and the person had to both sign the schedule and have a manager sign it. Once that is signed, it’s official. The person you are covering for is off the hook and it’s like they never had that shift to begin with.

      Having too much homework was NEVER an excuse to miss work and I worked at a restaurant on a college campus. I would have your parents(her boss?)talk to her and say this is not an acceptable excuse.

      But really they need to set up a system for this sort of stuff. This isn’t your SO’s problem- let the boss deal.

      1. New Girl*

        They do have a system pretty similar to the one your describing. They both agree to it, tell my father and he makes the change on the schedule. The shift was officially hers.

          1. neverjaunty*

            Right, I’m not understanding this either. If the shift was officially hers and she didn’t show up, that’s on her.

        2. Sadsack*

          So your father should reprimand her, as you suggested. I am curious if you know for sure that he didn’t. It probably is best for you not to be involved at all no matter how your father handled it. Your boyfriend should have a conversation with your father about it if he wants, but it isn’t your concern as an employee or a daughter.

    6. Brigitha*

      I’ve worked in food service for years.

      This will not be the last time your SO will have to deal with this. Unfortunately that’s the nature of having to find someone to cover your shift.

      However, I think this should have been handled differently. When your SO originally got a person to cover their shift, it’s that person’s shift. It was that person’s responsibility to find someone else to cover it when they decided they couldn’t, not dump it back on your SO. If your SO didn’t loop in the boss when the original shift change was made, they really should have. The boss should have known that the thursday shift belonged to the person covering it, not your SO.

    7. Menacia*

      There needs to be a policy around accepting someone else’s shift. If you can’t complete the shift as promised, you must find someone else who can’t, telling the person whose shift you took an hour prior to the shift they can no longer do it, is absolutely not acceptable.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Most retail jobs and wait staff jobs (year ago) I had the policy was you could get someone to cover for you but if that person did not show up it was YOUR fault. Apply that rule of thumb to this situation and it would be up to your SO to find someone else.
      The “punishment” came when the employee would not get extra shifts and no one would change shifts with her. So, no, I would not expect your parents to say anything. I am not sure that I agree with how this all works but this is what I have seen.

      What I did was find one or two people who were reliable and we would bail each other when necessary. Let’s say I work with ten people. Maybe Sue and Bob proved to be reliable, so I would just go to them each and every time. Likewise, I would bail them out in return.

    9. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      1) As lots of people have said (and you sort-of confirmed): There’s usually a policy with an approval step for schedule switching. Once approved by the manager, it’s the official shift, and the new person is 100% responsible.

      2) It occurs to me on further reading that it’s awfully convenient that the shift-trader didn’t call the restaurant to call off. I’m guessing the restaurant has a phone (and not just your parents text #?)

  10. Penultimate*

    Yesterday I found something on the printer that my manager had printed: a ranked list of the employees in the department. I know I shouldn’t have looked, but once I realized what it was, I couldn’t help myself. And I was ranked #14 out of 15! My company uses a forced ranking system for annual raises, and this will put me in the 0 raise category.

    I was shocked, absolutely shocked. At first I thought I must have a really inaccurate perception of my own performance, because I thought I was doing a damn good job. I work hard; I push myself to the limit every day. I do more work than anyone else — at least I thought so — and it is very, very rare that I make a mistake. I started asking myself if maybe I’m not accomplishing as much as I thought, or I’m making mistakes that nobody told me about, because I totally expected to see my name in the top 3 spots on that list.

    The more I think about it, though, the less it makes sense. The first time I met our new director, he told me that everyone says I’m the best employee in the department. In my mid-year review, my manager went through all of my performance objectives and had nothing but praise. At the end, she was supposed to summarize strengths and areas for improvement, and the only negative she gave through the whole review was that I get frustrated when other people aren’t doing their jobs and she wanted me not to show my frustration as much. Valid point, but the way she put it, it seemed like an afterthought just so she could put something in areas for improvement.

    I have had a couple of conflicts with coworkers, basically about the fact that people take advantage of my work ethic by neglecting the things they’re supposed to do and leaving them for me, partly because I take pride in my work and can’t stand to see important things neglected or done poorly, and partly because my manager knows I am highly productive and just expects me to do more work. It is a shift work job, so when the previous shift doesn’t do what they’re supposed to, or when the other people on my shift slack off, it directly affects my workload.

    Now, I get that part of my job is getting along with people and I should work on improving my relationships with my coworkers, and I can understand if they knock some points off my rating for that (though, for the record, not everyone hates me; I really only have conflicts with the worst performers, the ones who surf the Internet all day and leave a bunch of extra work for me to do, and the ones who make a ton of mistakes that I have to fix). I just don’t get how that puts me second-to-last in the department, when it seems that there is agreement that my work is the best in the department. It makes me sick to think of how hard I have worked all year while other people take two-hour lunch breaks and spend hours on Facebook and they’re all getting raises (except one other person) and I’m not. Two years ago, I was ranked #1 in the department, and I have gotten better in every measurable way since then, except my increasing frustration with other people’s neglect of duties, which management knows about but won’t do anything except pile more on the hard workers. Also, there is a male employee who is known for having conflicts with every single person in the department, and he was ranked #4, so why doesn’t he lose points for not getting along with people?

    If I hadn’t found this list now, I would have been completely blindsided at my performance review. Forewarned is forearmed, though, so I am wondering if there is anything I can do here. Should I try to make a case for myself? Prepare a written rebuttal? Obviously I need to start looking for another job, but that could take a long time (it took me two years to find this one).

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Maybe a silly question, but are you absolutely sure that it was ranked highest to lowest and not lowest to highest (with 14 being second from the top)?

      1. Penultimate*

        Yes, it specifically said, “ranked highest to lowest,” and there was a numerical score for each person that goes into the raise calculation, and the person ranked #15 is widely agreed to be the worst performer in the department.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          Are you sure the ranking was in terms of job performance? Could it have been a negative ranking somehow? (Most likely to be let go, for example?)

          1. Penultimate*

            I wish there were some other explanation, but it seemed pretty unambiguous… It said it was for annual reviews (which are coming up since our fiscal year just ended) and was in order of highest to lowest performer.

        2. animaniactoo*

          Unless you want it to be known that you found this list, I would not prepare a written rebuttal.

          I would, however, be prepared not to sign your performance review and to challenge the rank you have been given within the department and ask them to justify it to you over (pick 3 colleagues who are demonstrably worse than you and their issues to lay out). That can look like you’ve thought on your feet, vs you came in pre-armed with this knowledge.

          1. Key to the West*

            I don’t think a “but Mary missed that major deadline and John forgot to send the submission to our biggest client” approach is appropriate for the work place.

            OP should focus on how they excel at their work and how they do a good job without comparing themselves to their colleagues.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Sorry, but they have to compare themselves – it’s inherent in the setup where they are being ranked against each other. If LW is going to push back, they have to be able to raise “co-workers made these major mistakes/have these repeat issues, explain what mistakes I have that are worse which justify ranking me worse than them”.

              1. Oryx*

                If you want to compare yourself to an employee, explain why you are better — not why they are worse.

                1. Elizabeth West*

                  This.

                  If you’re having conflicts with other people, however, then yeah, I can see you getting ranked lower. I myself have completely skunked my merit raise for the year with my performance this year, so I know whereof I speak. :P

                  So instead of getting mad, focus on improving that part of your performance. There’s really nothing else you can do. You aren’t responsible for your coworkers’ behavior–only your own.

          2. Penultimate*

            You’re right, I don’t want her to know I saw this. Unfortunately, that also means I can’t use my knowledge of the rest of the rankings, like the male employee who starts arguments every day and is ranked #4. I could give plenty of examples of people who have notably bad performance, but would it make me look even worse to throw my coworkers under the bus?

            I think the biggest advantage of knowing in advance is having time to digest it. I cried when I first saw it because it was such a shock, but now that I know, I can stay calm and collected when she tells me.

            1. animaniactoo*

              You don’t have to bring up their rankings because if you’re ranked #14, it’s not possible that these 3 or 4 people are all ranked worse than you – the only possibility is that all of them but 1 is ranked better than you. You are being told what *your* rank is, so that’s all you need to be aware of here.

              If you’re calling out known factors then it’s not throwing them under the bus to ask what you do that is worse than those things to justify the ranking that you’re being given.

          3. Karo*

            I could be mis-remembering but I think Alison has recommended in the past that you still sign the review since you’re normally just signing to acknowledge receipt, but if you want it to be clear that you don’t agree you can make a note to that effect. I believe she has said that not signing is one of those weirdly adversarial things.

            But yeah, definitely prepare mental statements/notes to argue to your benefit, not a written rebuttal.

            2. Whats In A Name*

              I had a ex-boss/now friend do this once. She signed off on a performance review that she did not agree with under the impression she was signing as an acknowledgement of reciept.

              Even though her department exceeded all goals by leaps and bounds, her supervisor opted to give her a lower than usual score because she was on a 12-week vacation and someone else was running her department during that time. The 12-week vacation? MATERNITY LEAVE.

              She typed up her rebuttal, specifically citingthe use of the word “vacation” essentially being used as punishment, and outlined the very deatailed plan she left for the person taking over her duties.

              HR told her becuase she signed off on it there was nothing they could do and that she should have refused to sign. She never got her ranking, raise or any type of apology. She is no longer there thankfully.

        3. anonymo*

          You sound like a great worker not appreciated by your company. You’ve been there at least 2 years, and were job hunting for current job for 2 years. 4+ years ago the economy was worse, maybe in your field it is much better now! You’ve got more experience now. Don’t worry about the rebuttal, or trying to make too much of a case for yourself. Don’t bring up Mr. #4. It sounds like they are pretty subjective, so one guess is your gender/ethnicity/hairstyle/alma mater/favorite TV show/lunch food or something else that shouldn’t matter are factors here. Thank them for the suggestions on what to improve, bring up mild questions if you have them during your review. (Can you be more specific or give me an example of problem X?) Act very positive and trying to learn, even if their comments are garbage. (“You screwed up project A.” When you know Mr. 4 and Mr. 6 screwed it up.)

          I wouldn’t go from 100 to 0, but it sounds like you are already at a 110 or 120, in terms of performance/hours/effort. I would dial this back a bit. Don’t take 2 hour lunch breaks and become the Farmville master, but don’t work extra hours off the clock, unless it’s a true emergency. Joe not getting his work done and throwing it to you with no warning it not a true emergency.

          Good luck!! You’ll find something soon I bet!

          1. Penultimate*

            Thank you for your kind words. I hope it will not be as hard to find another job this time around, but I’m not optimistic. If anything, my field has become even more competitive since I started this job due to some large employers in this industry going out of business,

            Yesterday was another day where I had an impossible workload because three people called in sick and my manager expected me to pick up the slack. After I found that list, I thought, “Why should I bust my butt to get all of this done when I’m not even getting a raise?” But the work we do is important, and I can’t justify to myself not doing my best work when public safety could be at stake. I really take pride in my work and it hurts that my rating is not going to reflect that.

            1. TootsNYC*

              I wonder if you might need to go to your boss and say, “I just want to point out that I had this huge workload with stuff that was not mine. And I got it done! That’s because I’m organized with my own work, so I had bandwidth to take theirs one. And I don’t make many mistakes, so that helps.
              “I know review time is coming up, so I wanted to toot my horn a little, so you don’t forget how awesome I am, and how willing I am to go the extra mile and put in the extra effort when it’s needed.”

            2. Elizabeth West*

              You do the best you can do, and tell your boss, “I have X, Y, and Z–I can get two of them done by the deadline, but not three. Which ones should I prioritize?” etc.

            3. Ineloquent*

              Penultimate, had your bitterness about the extra work and lazy coworkers become more visible in recent months? Have you been vocal towards non-involved parties? People tend to think badly about frequent complainers, particularly if it feels likes you’re grinding someone else into the ground to put yourself on a pedestal.

            4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

              Speaking as someone who is seeing it happen–make sure this extra stuff that you are “getting done” is in-line with your performance goals (and not Fred’s/Wakeen’s/Lucinda’s). If not, see if you can get the work appropriately re-prioritized.

              “Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.”

              More PC: “Boss, there seem to be a lot of urgent tasks that you would like me to complete on a semi-regular basis. Can we have a one-on-one to discuss my current priorities and to assess what you consider the top 2-3? I want to make sure I’m working as efficiently as possible in alignment with company goals.”

              1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

                I meant to add–you may be working your butt of making other people look fabulous. :(

    3. Sunflower*

      Before jumping to conclusions, find out what the ranking was based on. It could be in reverse order. Or could be lowest earrings. Definitely find out before you start doing anything.

    4. Ella*

      In your comment, you mentioned that in your mid-year review they addressed your frustration with coworkers, and you mentioned that that has continued to increase. It could be that they view this as more of an issue than even getting work done. So maybe that’s something to work on going forward? Possibly finding an outside place to vent (I like counseling), or doing your best to be polite, even when frustrated. If they addressed it with you, and it’s continued, but you’re still really productive otherwise, that seems like it could be the missing factor in why you’re ranked poorly.

      1. Beancounter in Texas*

        Craigslist Rants & Raves is my favorite place to vent about workplace frustrations. I pick a random city not in my area, lest anyone actually randomly read it and figure it out.

      2. Penultimate*

        Well it is definitely something I will work on, but I still can’t understand how that is weighted so much that it could put me lower than people who do half the work I do and make 10 times as many mistakes. It is a very results-oriented company, and our performance objectives reflect a focus on results. I can’t even imagine how they could get the numbers to add up this way from the performance objectives.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I don’t know either, but at Exjob, we had people who were flat out incompetent and didn’t get in trouble. The only way I could deal with it was to stop caring, unfortunately. It got really bad before they started laying people off, and then when the new VP got rolling, a couple of them got axed as well (that was after I got laid off).

          It was frustrating as hell, though, so I understand how you feel. But me being frustrated didn’t change anything. I could only change how I reacted to it. :(

    5. H.C.*

      This depends how soon your performance review comes and whether that ranking document is final or still a draft in progress. If the review is within weeks & the document looks final – I am not sure how much of a rebuttal/appeal you can do pre-emptively (and expect to change your superiors’ minds and your ranking)—you might just have to sit through the review, see if their reasons/concerns for your low ranking is valid and decide if you want to stick it out for another year with no raise (maybe you can bring up your concern from given the dissonance of the praise-laden mid-year review, but again – I wouldn’t expect this to change their performance evaluation either.)

      On the other hand, if your review is a while away & the document looks like a working draft, you can initiate more frequent check-ins with your superiors and co-workers about tasks, projects, etc. and if everything is going fine and what you can do to help.

      Lastly, is there a possibility you’re being considered for a promotion or upward transfer – thus prompting your boss to save the regular raises for others who will be staying in the same roles?

      1. Penultimate*

        I’m not sure exactly when the annual reviews are happening, but they should be pretty soon because our fiscal year just ended. Technically, the reviews are supposed to be for a single fiscal year, so anything I do right now would be part of next year’s review.

        I don’t think I’m being considered for a promotion because (a) I would need a good rating to show that I deserve a promotion, and (b) I have never previously applied for a promotion or transfer at this company, while others in my department have. It is a weird situation because the shift work job comes with a lot of overtime, so a promotion to a non-shift work job would actually end up being a pay cut, which is why I never apply.

        1. H.C.*

          I wouldn’t be too sure about the “anything I do right now would be part of next year’s review” part; in an old job fiscal year end & performance review time for that year are 4 months apart, and come review time my managers have always brought up matters (good & bad) in that timespan that’s technically supposed to be part of next (current) year review.

    6. NW Mossy*

      One possibility – is there a chance that you’re ranked this way because they’re intending to promote you? I know that when I have promos in my group, they may not get a performance-review raise because they’re going to get a significant bump out of their promo. Promos and raises come out of different parts of the performance evaluation budget in my org, so if yours is similar, it may be that the data you saw isn’t wrong but simply incomplete.

      1. Lisa*

        She may also be at the top of her range as it is, but I never understood not rewarding someone with $ for great work, just because of being paid well already.

        1. NW Mossy*

          My org uses salary bands for different role tiers, and getting to the top of the range is definitely a challenge. I have some flex in that we also do merit-linked bonuses that are separate, but for long-serving high performers, there’s not much I can do salary-wise. The company’s basically saying “This role has a ceiling in how valuable it can be to our overall business, so we’re not willing to exceed that max value in paying someone to do it.”

          I’m candid with my folks who are near the top of the range that their raises are likely to be small even when they do really well, and the only way to see a major jump in base pay is to go to the next salary band via a new role. It’s hard to hear that your ceiling isn’t infinite, but even the world’s most amazing file clerk is going to have a hard time adding enough value to a company to be worth a six-figure salary.

          1. Christopher Tracy*

            My company is the same way with the pay bands. I have a work friend who’s been with my division 15 years, and she’s still only at a Senior level (I was promoted to this level in January). She’s at the top of the pay band for our salary grade, management has no intention of promoting her any further, so they give her performance bonuses instead of raises since she can’t exceed the band.

        2. Penultimate*

          Sadly, I’m not even close to the top of the range. If I were, I could still get a good rating, but my raise would be capped to prevent going above the top of the range.g

    7. Sibley*

      I’m going to be blunt. Because I am, and because I don’t see anyone has really spelled out what the underlying issue is: your attitude.

      Here’s what I’m getting about your attitude from your post: You’re resentful of people who surf the web, check email, take long lunches, or make mistakes. (But you don’t hand the mistakes back to the person so they can fix them and thus learn.) You’re allowing your frustration to build up, and spill over to the people around you, even after your manager discussed it with you. Your attitude sounds unpleasant and negative. This kind of attitude brings the entire office down. Of course you’re getting a bad review – I’d be shocked if you didn’t.

      Now, I suspect that either your manager didn’t do a good job of explaining how big an issue your attitude is or that you didn’t get the message clearly. That’s why you’re feeling blindsided now. But they did warn you, and you didn’t improve. In fact, you got worse.

      Stop paying attention to how hard someone else is working, or long lunch breaks, or whatever. If someone is slacking off, the manager will deal with it. If someone makes a mistake and it affects your work, politely send it back and ask them to fix it. No resentment allowed, do not carry grudges. Let your frustration go. You need to retrain yourself, because you’ve gotten into a pattern that is ultimately unhealthy.

      1. Penultimate*

        I appreciate your candid response and I will certainly work on my attitude going forward, but I don’t think it is as simple as you seem to believe. This is a shift work job, and sometimes mistakes need to be fixed now, not, say, three days from now when the person who made the mistake is next scheduled to work. If I’m here now, I have to fix it now. The manager is not always around to see people taking two-hour lunch breaks or surfing the web for half the shift, and even though I know she is aware that certain people don’t pull their weight, she has not done anything about it (or, if she has, it hasn’t worked because it keeps happening). Instead, she often piles more work on me because she knows I’ll do it, e.g., “Jim and Dwight didn’t get this done last night, so I need you to do it now (in addition to the normal workload for the day).” Jim and Dwight spent half the night on Facebook and they’re getting raises while I’m not. I’m sorry, but it’s hard not to let that affect my attitude.

        1. TL -*

          Okay, so that’s bad management and your problem should be with your manager in terms of your workload and not your coworkers in terms of their productivity.

          It is very much coming across like your attitude is a problem here. I get that it’s frustrating and you really value your work but it’s a huge problem if you have issues with multiple coworkers.

        2. CMT*

          If they do bring up your attitude in the review, please don’t try to immediately make excuses for it. That will make the problem worse. It sounds like you would work better in a different type of work environment, so you might keep that in mind if you do decide to look for something new.

      2. self employed*

        I would have said it a bit more gently than this, but I basically agree. I bet your displeasure with your coworkers comes off more negatively than you realize. Even in a results-oriented company, demeanor still matters. Is is possible you’re impacting morale without intending to?

      3. Whats In A Name*

        This is blunt but great advice. It took me a long time to realize the importance of staying in my own lane when it came to the comings and goings of others.

      4. Chaordic One*

        If this is an accurate assessment of the situation, then definitely give people back their incorrect work and have them fix it themselves. Try to have documentation, such as an email trail. If something doesn’t get turned in on time because of someone else’s mistakes or someone else waiting until the last minute to turn something in, so be it.

        They’ll probably come back to you with requests for instructions on how to do it correctly. Try to explain things in person or over the phone, instead of having to type out written instructions (which will usually take more of your time).

      5. Rocketship*

        Whoa, hey. I get where these “Your attitude is the problem” comments are coming from, but I totally disagree that the answer here is “Shut up and take it.”

        Penultimate, I’ve had problems with coworkers that sound very, very similar to yours. And it’s ENRAGING. You know what? It’s ok to be enraged. It’s ok to be super crazy pissed that these assholes are taking advantage of you. Your comment about “there’s a male employee” leads me to assume that you are a ladyperson? If not, I humbly beg your pardon for the misinterpretation; please feel free to disregard this upcoming Feminist Rant ™ if it doesn’t apply.

        You’re absolutely not wrong, Penultimate, to resent your shitty coworkers who are taking advantage of your work ethic. You have every right to be angry. But as women, we’re taught that anger is Not Okay and that it makes us Problematic And Difficult. We’re blamed for our own misuse, we’re told that we need to adjust our attitude. Nope nope nope. You don’t win any prize for being The Most Helpful Little Martyr at work. You just get…. more martyrdom.

        Here’s what I’ve noticed. In my case, all of the slacker employees who made my life hell were dudes. All of them were higher-paid than me; two out of the three made more than double what I do. And all of them benefited from this look-the-other-way, the-crazy-antagonistic-lady-is-the-problem-here bullshit mindset.

        So I started documenting. I brought it up to my manager. When he did nothing, I brought it up to his manager. When that guy ALSO did nothing (seriously, dudes, get your shit together) I took an opportunity to escalate it one step further. By this point we are at someone with the word “Global” in their job description.

        Essentially, I made it clear to all of these managers that I wasn’t going to make it easy for them if they decided not to manage. I set clear expectations: If Theon doesn’t send the ravens, I cannot do my job, he has to send the ravens it is not optional. Please make sure he understands this. Polishing the armor is not my job and I do not have the time nor the expertise to do it, therefore I need you to ensure that Janos does it. I will let you know if I notice that the armor is going un-polished. I’ve noticed that Gregor spends a lot of his time saddling and un-saddling horses; could you please speak to him about proper horse-saddling procedure and also make sure he knows he needs to put the bridles on too? I’ll be checking in with you about that later. I becaome a broken fucking record, to the point where managers were openly acknowledging that they were only doing things because they were sick of hearing about it from me. My philosophy is essentially this: I don’t give a damn how you feel about it, as long as it gets done.

        In my case, Theon and Gregor both voluntarily resigned. Janos is still there, but for unrelated reasons is no longer in my part of the Seven Kingdoms. He’s widely regarded as a jackass, and the Westerosi around me are mostly glad he was sent across the Narrow Sea.

        So I guess my point is this: If your boss isn’t horrified by the fact that someone is ignoring tasks that will affect PUBLIC!!! SAFETY!!! in favor of Facebook (?!?!) then I strongly advise going up the chain until you find someone who IS horrified. Make liberal use of phrases like “I am at capacity,” “I cannot accept [x]’s responsibilities on top of my own.” Make liberal use of the words “unacceptable” and “accountability.” The problem here is not that you have a bad attitude about being blatantly used and dicked over; the problem here is that everyone seems to think it’s ok to blatantly use you and dick you over. Set boundaries and stick to them. Be unwavering in your expectations of your manager with regards to addressing the situation. Stand up for yourself. And, unfortunately, it probably wouldn’t hurt to polish up your resume.

        1. Yeah right*

          Awesome, Rocketship. This is my workplace right now…you have inspired me to change my attitude about being a martyr and to get the boss to pull his finger out of his arse and actually do his job – by getting the slack dumbos in my office to do what they are getting paid to do. Thank you so much.

          1. Rocketship*

            <3 <3 <3 I'm so glad I could help! It burns me up to see anyone picking up the slack for someone else who is obviously coasting, especially when the folks who are supposed to stop that sort of thing just kinda look the other way, and then later act like that's just the status quo. Nope. No sir. Not gonna stand for it.

        3. Penultimate*

          Thanks for this. You are correct that I am a ladyperson, and while I don’t like to play that card, I can’t help but feel like that has something to do with my being expected to do my own work plus other people’s and keep a smile plastered on my face while doing it. We get lectures from management all the time on how vital our work is and how important it is to work to the highest standards, but if I dare to point out when the work is not up to our standards (or not done at all), I’m basically told to keep my mouth shut. My manager has hinted for a long time that she knows certain people aren’t pulling their weight (she even checked web surfing records, so she knows exactly how much time people spend on Facebook and YouTube) and she is doing something about it behind the scenes, but I haven’t seen any results.

          I have thought about taking my concerns up the chain, and maybe going to the company ombudsman, but I have this fear that they will just roll their eyes at the crazy, antagonistic lady. You’re right, though, that somebody should be horrified about this, and maybe I need to keep looking until I find that person.

        4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          Damn, Rocketship. That was nice. I may need to save this on my PC to come back to when I get tired of rattling cages.

        5. Chaordic one*

          You said it much better and more emphatically than I did. In my experience, the ratio of men to women with the problem was about 50/50, but this will vary. The problem at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. was made worse because the company had a very high rate of turnover and I was constantly having to train new employees about procedures.

          I ended up making a number of cheat sheets that I could send as a PDF attachment in an email to new employees and that helped. However, I ran into a problem when I.T. found out about a cheat sheet that gave instructions on how to use our new computer system. (I was getting calls from new employees at branch offices complaining about information not being posted to the system when in fact, it was there, but they couldn’t find it because they didn’t know how to use the new system so I sent them a copy of the cheat sheet.)

          I.T. became irate because there was a “help feature” in the new system (although most people couldn’t find it). Also the language used in describing how to use the system in the help feature was obtuse and not all that helpful. I.T. also claimed that at some point in the future the system might actually be upgraded and the instruction would become inaccurate. (The cheat sheet did say that the system might change in the future or be upgraded.) So no more computer cheat sheets after that.

          So maybe come up with written cheat sheets that explain to your co-workers how to do the work they need to. I would add, be nice when bringing it to their attention, but make sure they do the work and you don’t do it for them.

    8. Qweert*

      1 This could be an error. Take it from someone who accidently sorted on a vlookup and scrambled everyone’s bonuses. Come prepared for your review like you would even without this knowledge. Try not to obsess over it. Focus on on your achievements and think of a few ways you can prove appearing frustrated.

    9. neverjaunty*

      You should start looking for another job. That your company uses forced rankings systems is the real problem here – and those systems are, as you now know, not based 100% on merit. (Read some of the stories on ‘stack ranking’ at places like Microsoft, where managers made deals with other managers to game the rankings so they got to keep high performers.)

    10. Althea*

      If you go into your review and really hear that you are #14 (and it’s not some kind of misunderstanding), I’d prepare a number of questions like these:

      “From my perspective, I’ve seen you give me additional work that I understood to be assisting you with correcting the errors of others. For example, you asked me to fix John’s teapot glaze a few weeks ago, and there are other examples. Can you tell me how this kind of thing has played into your ranking?”

      You also have to work on saying this in a neutral, inquisitive tone – because you really do want to know how they got to this ranking. And it gives a gentle reminder of the things you have done well.

      There are 3 possible outcomes: you are doing worse than you think, and you need to know about it and fix it; you are doing really well, but they are prioritizing other considerations that you are not privy to; or you are doing really well, and they are prioritizing totally BS reasons. Regardless, you need to go into the meeting with an open mind. But you need to practice your questions until you can ask them without sounding defensive and frustrated.

      2. MsMaryMary*

        I think this is an opportunity to ask what it would take for you to be ranked #1. If you do have performance issues or attitude/interpersonal issues that are impacting your work, your manager should be able to tell you what to work on to fix it. If this is a BS ranking, your manager won’t be able to offer constructive feedback or will tell you something totally unreasonable.

    11. Former Retail Manager*

      Maybe another viewpoint….even if you’d been in the top 3 or 5 how much would the potential raise be? I feel like companies that use these types of systems for raises also tend to not give very good raises to begin with. (A blanket assumption on my part, I realize.) If the money just isn’t there, perhaps it might be worth looking into positions in related industries or for a large vendor/supplier in your industry. I think the bigger picture concern I would have if I were you would relate to longer term opportunities at your current employer. If they offer mostly praise to your face and in writing, with only minimal afterthought type criticism, and then rank you in this manner, I would wonder what else goes on behind the scenes that you don’t know about. It all just sounds two-faced to me. As others said, I wouldn’t disclose that you found the list unless you are ready to call them on the carpet and potentially quit depending upon their reaction. So sorry this has happened to you. I’ve been in similar situations and it always felt like a punch in the gut.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I read down through everyone’s comments and your replies OP.

      This sounds vaguely similar to something that happened to me. I needed to sell more. Okay fine. Well I did not push as hard as I could have because I did not understand that this would be THE KEY talking point for my next review. I did not get that out of the conversation AT ALL. Next review, everything plummeted because I was not DRAMATICALLY improved.
      Sigh.
      The boss went on and on about how I am a heck of a worker but because there was not a huge improvement my rank/raise was low. I said, “I don’t get this. You mentioned it in passing. I have improved. Why is this such a problem?”

      And that was when I found out the rest of the story.

      Because of my longevity/pay rate/etc. my bar got raised. I was being held to a higher bar for performance than everyone else. He NEVER told me that a different standard was being applied to me, he just started using the standard without mentioning it.

      I did not last too much longer at the job. Because of the setting I ended up with enormous workloads that I never got thanked for. I remember one time I did tasks 1 through 23 in my shift. I felt pretty spiffy. All the boss said was “you missed task 24”. That was it. I was falling down tired and all I heard was you missed task 24. I knew I would never be able to help this company.

      My current boss marvels that I get tasks 1 through 13 done and ignores the fact that I missed tasks 14 through 18. Differences in people.

    13. Candi*

      Let’s see if I get this:

      You have to do your work and a ton of other people’s work.

      The work must be done now. It can’t wait, because of the nature of the work.

      You have so much of other people’s work to do because they make massive errors or majorly slack off.

      You are very stressed because of all this.

      You push back, wanting people to do their work instead of you hauling the entire wagon half the time.

      The manager refuses to address the problem re: slacking workers. He dumps more work on you (and others who actually work).

      You are told you have a bad attitude and need to get along better with your coworkers -the very ones responsible for your stress. The ones who aren’t being managed. By the manager telling you your attitude is a (the?) problem.

      Then you find you are near-bottom of the pile in ranking for raises and promotions.

      I think your chain is being yanked and your current workplace is dysfunctional. The situation I can see is not long-term sustainable.

      Your choices are:

      Document and escalate or:

      Endure or job hunt.

      Best wishes on whatever you do.

        1. Bibliovore*

          I would get out in front. Document your work- job description, productivity etc. Document the “passed on work” Rate of errors. Do a time study of two weeks. Then. request a meeting to discuss, how well you are doing. Focus on yourself.
          State the expectation of your performance evaluation.

          I did something similar when I hear that ” oh, there is no way to get the highest rating two years in a row”
          The raise wasn’t much but if I didn’t deserve the highest rating there was something wrong with the system.

  11. Frustrated Employee*

    Maybe people who have been doing this thing long enough to explain it to me.

    My company is required to list all positions open, even when the promotion has been promised to someone else. They don’t tell anyone this, so on multiple occasions, I have applied for a promotion, been interviewed, been given all sorts of vague promises of a follow up – and then I find out that I didn’t get it because it was already promised to someone else.

    To me, this is a really crappy way to treat employees. Why jerk around a long time employee into thinking they have a shot at something when you know all along that they don’t? Is there a way I can outright ask “Hey, is this position REALLY open, or is this one of those ‘we’re interviewing because we have to'” so I don’t get my hopes up again?

    Thanks!

    1. ZSD*

      If you work in the public sector, they might actually be legally required to post all jobs. And oh, do I know the frustration. I’ve gotten all excited when I’ve interviewed well, only to learn…
      If you don’t feel comfortable asking, one secret code is often how long the job posting is open for. If it’s open for the minimum amount of time (say, five days), they probably have someone in mind already. If it’s open for longer (like three weeks), they’re probably actually open to considering various people.

    2. J*

      Even if it’s not legally required, sometimes departments have to at least make a show of doing “due diligence” for an opening. They have a candidate in mind, but HR (or someone higher up) insists that the posting is public and other candidates are brought in. The only way you’d know that it wasn’t truly available would be to have the inside track from someone on the hiring committee.

      I’ve been both the job seeker and the hiring manager in such a scenario and it sucks all around. It especially sucks when you like a different candidate personally, but you know you’re still going to give it to the person you already had in mind. It wastes both your time and the candidates’s.

    3. Joseph*

      Even if you’re not government (as ZSD suggests), posting open positions is a fairly common policy. The theory here is that (a) promised employee might leave or take a different position or something, (b) someone might come in and be so otherworldly awesome that it’s worth taking them over promised employee, and/or (c) those applicants might be impressive enough that you can redirect them to other open positions.

    4. NW Mossy*

      This is something that happens in my org, and so often that we have a name for it – “the line,” as in “who’s next in line to be promoted?” I found it very frustrating as well because I didn’t like my position in the line and wondered why I couldn’t leapfrog the heir apparent when I was better at X or had Y skill.

      What ultimately helped me get past that attitude was reframing it as “what do I need to do to become the heir apparent before the next slot opens up?” For me, that ended up being a switch into an individual contributor role in a very different part of my business line. From there, I used some social knowledge I picked up about a manager in that area preparing to retire, started to learn about what she did, and floated a “Hey, when Lucinda retires, I’d like to be considered for her role” to the departmental big boss. Lucinda ultimately retired about a year earlier than anyone thought she would, and it ended up being a win/win for big boss and me that I could smoothly take over for her.

      I’ll probably end up needing to do something similar when I want to jump levels again, particularly the part about leveraging my contacts and the informal grapevine to get out ahead of future openings. Playing politics like this often feels weird or sneaky, but it’s a good way to get practice in the sort of wheel-greasing and horse-trading that comes with being in management.

    5. Bad Candidate*

      I’m not sure if it happens in my company, if it does, I haven’t seen it yet. My husband’s company does this though. He got a semi-lateral slightly up position that he was told was his if he wanted it. But they had to post for it. They didn’t interview anyone externally, but they did interview someone internally, one of his coworkers. It hadn’t been announced that he’d get the job in the department, so I think coworker thought he had a shot, but really even if it hadn’t been promised to my husband, he was the better candidate anyway. However the next time this employee posted for a job and didn’t get it it ticked him off enough that he started looking for a new job and found one, paying considerably more, at a different company. That job hadn’t been earmarked for anyone, and he would have gotten it if he hadn’t blown the interview, but two in a row plus a few other things drove him off. I think they should be more up front about that stuff. Especially if it’s a small group and your pay is terrible and you have a hard time retaining employees.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      The one thing I would caution you about is to watch where this info comes from that they have selected someone.

      Let’s call her Negative Nancy. She was negative for many reasons. It was a hobby of hers to tell everyone that the position had been decided on before it was even posted. So people would take Nancy’s word as gospel and they would repeat the information. Superficially, it seemed like all these people “knew” the job was filled. NOooooo. All these people had talked to Nancy- think patient zero who infects everyone. Was the position pre-filled? Maybe not, but Nancy did her absolute best to keep people from applying. It satisfied her in some messed up way.

  12. Sofia*

    Can I give my manager a deadline?

    We have a deadline coming up next Monday and there are still a lot of items that haven’t come in that I need in order to complete some assignments. Add to that, my manager will be out two days next week for a religious holiday. I am getting very stressed that all assignments will come in on the last minute and I will have to work both days next weekend to meet the deadline. My birthday is next Sunday so I don’t really want to have to work that day. I am caught up with everything I can do at the moment, but we are getting a new assignment tomorrow morning, so I will be working all day tomorrow to complete this assignment and taking this Sunday off. Is it okay to tell my manager that anything I don’t get by Monday afternoon I can’t guarantee will be done on time and that I won’t be working Sunday? Or should I just give up my birthday and come in next Sunday if I need to?

    Note: If I don’t get the assignment by Monday it wouldn’t come until Thursday because of the holidays.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. A.Z. Lazuli*

      I do that all the time. My project manager is so busy that I need to tell her when I need stuff for her to do it. I often have to remind her multiple times that she needs to do something for me.

      I do it nicely and politely, of course.

      1. Sofia*

        I keep reminding him, but the problem is he needs the information from different clients who aren’t providing the information.

        1. TheCupcakeCounter*

          I would talk to your boss and ask if there is a way that, due to the holiday, the client send the information directly to you instead of going through the boss so that you can still meet the deadline. Instead of saying you don’t want to work on your birthday maybe frame it as having firm plans for the weekend and therefore limited time to work on it and you want to be able to produce a solid product that isn’t rushed at the last minute.

          1. Sofia*

            That’s not a bad idea! It’s very frustrating to me though to think that I have to justify not working on a Sunday when he is taking two days in the middle of the week and took two weeks off last week for a holiday as well. I guess those are the perks of management!

            1. neverjaunty*

              Is Sunday a religious observance day for you? If so, then you should probably have a talk with your manager about that.

              If it’s just that Sunday is normally a work day off – the holidays you’re talking about are almost certainly the High Holy Days, and they’re kind of a big freaking deal; it’s not really a ‘perk’ to take them off like taking a weekend.

              1. Sofia*

                I didn’t mean it in an offensive way and I understand they are important. I meant a “perk” as in a way that he can take the days off even if it means my coworkers and I will have to work all weekend to meet my deadlines.

                No, Sundays are not a religious for me because I don’t care about religion. But it is my birthday and my birthday is important to me. I know some people don’t make a big deal of it, but to me it is important.

                Also, I don’t consider having two days off as a “perk”, but rather something that is required of a job and I am already working long hours during the week and on Saturdays to meet the deadline.

                2. Sofia*

                  After rereading, I don’t I explained myself the way I wanted to. I don’t mean to be offensive or imply the holidays aren’t important because I understand that they are, but it is affecting me personally and I don’t think that is fair.

                3. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Keep in mind that that kind of religious accommodation is required by law in the majority of situations in the U.S.; it’s not because he’s a manager.

                4. Sofia*

                  Thank you! I’m not in any way saying or trying to imply that he shouldn’t have those days, but I think my time should be respected as well.

                5. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

                  Right, but there’s a difference between “important to you” and “religious holiday.” Specifically – one is legally protected and the other is not. I get that you’re stressed and frustrated about this, and you have every right to be, but you’re coming off a tad snarky on the fact that he’s taking religious days of obligation off.

              2. Sofia*

                My question if more of is it okay to tell him I won’t work on Sunday and might not meet the deadline if we don’t get the information in a timely manner or should I just come to work on Sunday and forget that it’s my birthday?

            2. Whats In A Name*

              The holidays you are likely talking of are not “perks” and the days are not spent doing the same weekend-type things that normally occur on a weekend off.

              It sounds like you are seeing his observance of the holidays as a burden to you, and I do hate that part of it. I think asking to have the client contact you in his absence is a way to find a potential solution. And if he skips the holidays (equivalent of a Christian skipping Christmas) and sits in his office, is there a guarantee these clients will contact him? You said they are not responding at current time.

              1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

                I literally just had this very conversation with someone because I have 3 Jews on my team right now, and someone wanted to know why they were all allowed to take leave at the same time. Nobody raises an eyebrow when half the workforce wants the day after Thanksgiving off, or Christmas Eve, but this is somehow an issue?

                1. Sofia*

                  Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that he shouldn’t take the holidays off and I am definitely not against him taking the time off because they are important to him and I understand that. I don’t see it as a burden to me because you are right that there is no guarantee that the clients will answer during those days and they probably won’t because they will be celebrating those holidays as well.

                  I’m sorry if I came of snarky and not understanding of the holidays, I know it did come off that way after I reread it so I apologize for that. It is frustrating to me, but I also understand that they are important.

                2. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

                  It’s ok! You’re really really stressed right now. I think you got a lot of good suggestions here for how to handle the specific situation – I also recommend suggestion the clients send stuff straight to you so you don’t have to have your manager as the middleman.

                3. Whats In A Name*

                  @Sofia.

                  I agree with Katie! You got some good suggestions. Just don’t use the same choice of words you used with us and you’ll be fine with boss man :o)

              2. Sofia*

                Thanks for your comment. After reading your message, I agree that taking the holidays are not “perks” as I originally stated, but rather something employers have to and should offer. I understand that the holidays are important and don’t mean to imply he shouldn’t have them off. The reason I initially said they were perks is because I don’t celebrate any religious holidays so to me having those days off are “perks”, but I realize now that to the person celebrating those holidays they aren’t perks.

                Clients will be celebrating those holidays as well so it’s not not likely we will get anything in those days as you mentioned. It is also not likely that he will agree to have those clients not celebrating the holidays speak directly to us as there are only a handful of clients that he likes us to communicate with directly.

        2. dr_silverware*

          Have you told him you probably won’t be able to work next Sunday? You could try, “Boss, we have a lot of stuff coming due that can’t move forward unless we get this stuff from our clients. I won’t be able to work Sunday of this weekend, how do you want to handle this?”

          2. Sofia*

            I asked what are our plan was to make sure we get everything done on time. He said all we can do is wait for our clients to give us the information. The problem is he procrastinates a lot and there is a big rush before due dates here. Some of this information we have had since May or June and I need additional information, but he doesn’t contact the client until the pressure is on…or sometimes he just won’t forward me the information. This morning he contacted a client for a question I had asked in June and the client replied that the had already given him that information and sure enough he had because he found the e-mail back from June. I’ve continued to follow up throughout the months but he ignores my e-mails or tells me I don’t need to follow up because he knows what he has to do.

            I just don’t know if it’s appropriate to set my foot down and say I definitely won’t come in Sunday or if I have to suck it up and come in.

            1. neverjaunty*

              I think it’s appropriate but perhaps phrase it as “Given that you quite understandably won’t be available during the holidays, and I need that information before Friday, how would you prefer we handle this? We could do [any of the suggestions from the above].”

              But the bigger problem is that your boss is a horrible procrastinator. You can’t really fix that.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      This is classic “managing up.” Would it be appropriate to offer to “take following up with the clients off his plate” so that you have more control over getting what you need on your timeline?

      1. Sofia*

        He doesn’t allow us to do that though. Certain clients we can follow up with, but the majority only he wants to talk to.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      It’s not really giving your manager a deadline but it is totally reasonable in my opinion to share the implications of not getting something by a certain time, along the lines of, “If I get this by Monday afternoon, I’ll complete it by Friday without issue. But if I don’t receive it til Thursday, it won’t be possible to complete it until next Tuesday.”

      1. Sofia*

        That’s what I’m thinking too. Would make sense on Monday morning to say anything I can get by end of day today I can finish by the deadline, but anything I can after I will do my best. I can come in Saturday, but coming in Sunday is where I draw the line?

        I asked him “What is our plan to make sure everything gets done by the deadline?” He said he would try to get the information, but some we won’t get until the last minute. I told him I wasn’t planning on coming in on Sundays, but can come in Saturdays (which I am planning on)

        1. Jillociraptor*

          Are you scheduled for Saturdays and Sundays? As in, are those days part of your normal work week? Either way I think it’s always reasonable to say “I won’t be in the office that day so how can we adjust the timeline or the deadline so that things get done as appropriate?” But if you’re not even scheduled/required to work Sundays, you can just repeat, “I won’t be working on Sunday.” and hold to that.

          If there are occasional times when you need all hands on deck to finish a project, that’s one thing. But it sounds like your office actually has a pretty big issue with process management if it’s a standard part of your operations that people need to work weekends in order to meet deadlines. The better question for your boss is “We need to adjust the deadlines to reasonable timelines for getting information from clients. How can we fix that issue so that staff don’t have to regularly work on their days off?”

          1. Sofia*

            We can’t change the deadline because it’s a federal deadline. We need to work Saturdays during certain times of the year, but when I interviewed they said we would just be working Saturdays and not Sundays. This isn’t one of those times where we are supposed to be working Saturdays or long hours, but I am still trying my best to complete my work in time and just don’t know if it’s appropriate to say that I won’t be working Sunday or if I should just come in,

            One of my coworkers mentioned that she will just do the best she can and is only working Saturday as well.

      2. Joseph*

        Correct – you aren’t setting deadlines or his schedule, you’re providing him with information that’s important to the company. Most notably, if your deadline is related to a client deadline, you *absolutely* should point that out. “This report is due to Alpha Client by Friday, so I need your comments by Thursday to give us enough time to address and then mail it out to them.”
        Also, to the extent possible, it’s great to give heads-up about these things ahead of time. Hey, I’m working on the Alpha Report, so I expect to get it to you by Monday and if I can get it back by Thursday, then we can get it out to them on Friday and meet their deadlines.

        1. Sofia*

          Thank you. So everything is due to the different clients by next Monday and I still have about 10 different assignments that aren’t in yet. I am just worried that all 10 will come in Thursday or Friday!

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      I made a deal with a manager years ago, in an attempt to get him to get some work done. I worked in a shoe repair, and he was always off doing other things, so customers would come in and yell at me because their shoes weren’t done. I got tired of it, and offered him a deal: if he got all of his work done before the end of the week, I’d pay for him and his wife to go to an expensive dinner in town. If he failed, he’d pay for me and my spouse to go to dinner. I knew I couldn’t lose: either I’d get a nice dinner or I wouldn’t get yelled at.

      He accepted the deal. I got a nice dinner.

  13. Lily*

    I’ve been at my current job for several years, and I’m feeling like it’s time to start looking for something new. This is only my second “professional” job. I stayed at my previous job for about two years, and before that, I was doing something else entirely, which allowed me to also complete graduate school.

    My question is about references. I’m in a bit of a bind concerning who to list as a reference. Listing my previous supervisor is problematic. He got fired around the time that I left. He had already been given his notice (they actually gave him the option to resign as a courtesy to help him save face a bit, but it was well known he was fired) when I was offered my current job and gave my own notice. Part of the reason he was fired–though definitely not all–was his supervision of me. Specifically, assigning me work way beyond my job grade, including work that was actually his to do and that he was taking credit for behind my back. He also had a lot of other problems, and I highly suspect that most of them stemmed from a very serious problem with alcohol. He came to work drunk several times, and frequently called out “sick” after posting pictures of drunken escapades on facebook. Since leaving, I know from viewing his profile on LinkedIn that he has held and left one other job (less than a two year stint), and seems to be currently unemployed. I also heard through the grapevine that his marriage fell apart.

    When I gave my notice six years ago, he was very annoyed with me while at the same time begging me to extend my two weeks’ notice. I’d always done excellent work there (which was why he was so annoyed–he flat out said that they wouldn’t be able to find someone else who would do work at the same level that I would for so little money, as if this was my fault), so he really should be able to give me a good reference. But he’s never been the most stable person, and was certainly known to act out of emotion and spite in several circumstances. I’ve also seen him lie. Because of this, I’m a bit nervous about asking him for a reference. Because I’m sure that his feelings about our former workplace are probably not that positive, and part of his demise there included me, I have no idea how he will react. Even though he has absolutely nothing to gain from badmouthing me, I have no reason to think his stability has gotten any better. I certainly wouldn’t want a prospective employer to call him and him answer the phone drunk. I’m not confident that that wouldn’t happen.

    His management style created such a toxic environment that eventually almost everyone in my department left voluntarily or was forced to leave, including all other senior people (I was the most junior person). There is actually only one person left who was there when I was, and she did not have any supervisory responsibilities. Even if I could track those other people down, which I’m not sure I could, I don’t know how appropriate asking them for a reference would be considering that they weren’t really my supervisors.

    When I applied for my current job, I listed my supervisor that I had in my last job that was NOT related to my current industry. It was fine at the time–but that reference was much fresher then than it is now, and also it did not raise any red flags when I did not list what was at the time my current supervisor. But I don’t have that excuse now. How should I proceed in regards to references with my next job search? Can I get hired without having to rely on a reference from this unstable man or listing my current supervisor (which I don’t want to do for obvious reasons)?

    2. Fabulous*

      Yes, co-workers are definitely the way to go. Use someone who was more senior than you with whom you had a close working relationship, i.e. a senior admin or team lead. Or perhaps someone who worked jointly on a project with you.

      1. Lily*

        They’ve mostly all left–there is literally one person there who worked there when I did, whose position is pretty junior. I only am in touch with one other person, who really didn’t work closely with me. There were some other senior people there, who didn’t exactly supervise me (their boss was also my boss), but they were all also forced to resign or otherwise made miserable enough to resign on their own. None of them had other jobs lined up when they left, so I’m not sure how to contact them.

        My boss’s boss was VERY high up on the ladder, and has actually moved on to a different position now, although I do know what that is. But I’m not sure that such a junior person as me (I had literally the lowest level job in the department) would have much luck getting him to respond to a reference, even though I did know him.

        And even so, don’t hiring managers want to speak to a manager? Won’t it red flag my application that I don’t list anyone who ever supervised me?

        1. TheCupcakeCounter*

          I didn’t have any supervisors on my reference list because the job I left after 5 years was my first out of college and I was still employed while looking. I would look for some coworkers at current job that trust and you have worked directly with enough that they can attest to your skills. Then after you have a firm offer if they still want to talk to a supervisor they can call your current boss. Besides a lot can change in 6 years and some places want references that are “fresher” and can speak to your current skill set and behaviors.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Oh man, you definitely DO NOT want to list your former supervisor as a reference. When you apply to new jobs that ask for a previous supervisor, say that your former supervisor is unwell and you’re not comfortable using him as a reference. That’s when you offer up other employees from that workplace. Most employers will be fine with this, and I’m sure your former coworkers would be happy to help.

    4. NaoNao*

      I have actually been hired on most of my jobs without a reference check that I heard about at least. Part of that may have been that some of my supervisors and references are overseas but I think maybe some hiring managers just need references “on file” and actually don’t check for most office jobs.

      So in this case what I might do is list a co worker, a friendly person who is related to your department who can speak about your work who is senior to you, or list the person who was this boss’ boss? Most places will understand that a current manager is not likely to give a reference since they may or may not know about the job search.

    5. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Do you have any mentors from, say, graduate school that could serve as references?
      Would you be comfortable discussing with your current supervisor if you knew you were a candidate of choice? Hiring managers typically don’t call references until they’ve already made a decision to hire, and it’s a last check to make sure there are no major red flags.

      1. Lily*

        I do have school mentors, but that was quite a long time ago now. I appreciate all of the feedback here and will probably go with not listing this guy and trying to use coworkers + current manager with the caveat that I’d like to be notified before the call so that I can warn her.

    6. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      Your boss has left the workplace in question. Is it generally considered reasonable for you to have to track someone down in order to use them as a required reference? It’s a bit weird and intrusive to require a candidate to play detective. Would I really be expected to figure out where in Florida my previous boss ended up retiring to, for example?

      I’d give the info (I worked here during these dates, under this person) and let the new job call and find out that the supervisor is now gone.

  14. ithinkyouhavemystapler*

    Today is my last day at Old Job! I have been trying to leave for so long and I am SO EXCITED for my new position within the same organization but at a different site. Hooray for moving forward!

    5. Snazzy Hat*

      Woo! Congratulations! We must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!

  15. AnotherAnon*

    I have received this question twice during two interviews: “What are some challenges that you expect to face in this position?” I gave an answer, but I don’t think it was what they were looking for. Are they looking to see how you would solve problems on the job?

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Did you just give a flat answer about potential issues, or did you also state how you would address those shortcomings? Ive always found that this question is a good clue to some key issues on the job, and they want to see if you would know from experience or intuition how to handle them without necessarily additional help. It also gives you a heads up about potential problems – if the answer to this is ever “organizational resistance to change” keep on walking once you walk out the door!

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      I think that’s a poorly phrased question, and you could ask to clarify. (To be honest, they have a better idea of what might be challenging in a position than you do, since they presumable know more about their own workplace/positions.) I wonder if they’re actually asking what might be your weakest skills of those required for the job.

    3. Sunflower*

      Before you go into a job interview, I would look at the job description and identify what parts of the duties/requirements you have limited or no experience with and think about how you would learn those things or how your experience in other related/similar areas relates to that. You’ll need something better than ‘I’m a quick learner/I like to learn!’. For example, my new job is a lot of client service and my last job was very limited in that. So I had to explain to my now boss why I could handle that or what I would do once I started to excel.

      I think maybe what they are asking is ‘how do you handle new challenges’. This could also be a form of ‘what is your biggest weaknesses’.

    4. Pwyll*

      Yes. In an ideal world, you’d refer to something the interviewer has discussed with you or that was clear from the job description. Something like, “It sounds to me like this position requires a lot of coordination between different departments, which may have their own goals. This is similar to the time I did x at y job, and what I did was z.” or “It sounds like this position really needs to get a handle on all the records for z project. I’ve had to clean up the documentation for projects like this in the past, and would do abc.”

    5. hbc*

      I ask a similar question, and I expect to hear something along the lines of the most challenging part to you or the most challenging part in general. “I’ve never worked with an ERP system before and it sounds like that’s a heavy part of the job, but I’m pretty fast at learning new programs.” Or “The hardest thing is always the people. I can learn any equipment or process, but figuring out what motivates the people under me takes time.”

      Of course, they may be looking for a particular answer, like the last person was terrible with paperwork, and they want to hear about how the paperwork will be a challenge but that you’re awesome at it. They really should give you a nudge in that direction, though, if you don’t hit on it the first time.

    6. TootsNYC*

      I actually always pretend they’ve asked me that question.

      And I “answer” is (bcs they seldom actually ask it) by highlighting the challenges I think are endemic to the position.

      Like: a copyeditor has to have an eye for detail; to be able to focus in the middle of chaos and deadline pressure.
      At my current job, the place has a bad reputation for chaos and lateness, and EVERYbody knew it, so I said, “I think the organization’s reputation might make it hard to recruit and retain quality staff, so I’d offset that by carving out comp time and paying a little better than most places. I also have a good track record of keeping people coming back by treating them well and giving them autonomy, which makes them feel like a valued contributor.”

      Managers have to motivate staff after layoffs; they have to make sure everyone has the same marching orders and standards (harder when the staff is larger or more disjointed).

      File clerks have to deal w/ people who provide information in a haphazard way; they have to handle big piles of stuff arriving suddenly; they have to handle boredom; they have to deal w/ new formats, outgrowing the file drawers, etc.

      So I would say everyone should think, “What do I think will be the tough parts of this job? How will I do them, or what experience can I point to that will prove I can handle the tough parts of the job?” Sure, you won’t know everything, but you should be able to identify the generic “hard parts of the job.” And any research you can do about the company, or the department, would be valuable as well (it helped me), though you don’t want to go over into “negging.” Just, if you can say, “I’ve spoken to people who’ve told me there’s been a lot of turnover. I would think that smoothing that out would be one of the challenges.” Or, “I know that you’re trying to carve out more market share in printing services, so identifying new customers, or ones we can poach, would be a priority, I’d think.”

  16. Bloop*

    I had an interview for a job that I applied to as a reach earlier this week. It had been so long since I submitted the application that I had kind of figured I had submitted too late (the post came down the day after) or they had decided to pass on me. I feel like I did really well in the interview and prepared for it more than I ever have because it’s essentially the job I’ve wanted since I was sixteen. At the end of the interview, they said they expected to make first-round decisions by the end of October. It’s going to be a loooooong month. I’ll take it, though.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Congrats on getting an interview for something so exciting! Waiting is the worst, I know. Just wanted to say best of luck and be sure to try to occupy yourself as best you can in the mean time. I have been that person who sits and refreshes their email every 15 minutes.

    2. Fact & Fiction*

      Good luck! I have an interview Monday I’m super excited about. Hope we both rock it!

  17. Laid Off 5 Months Before Maternity Leave*

    Other than temp/staffing agencies, are there any other places to look for short-term work?

    In March we’re having a baby. I’m getting laid off in December. And my hours are being halved in November.

    I plan to stay home for a year and pretend the US is a civilized country, but in order to do that we need my income now! I’ve applied with 5 temp agencies, but I’d love to hear other suggestions if you have any.

    2. Pwyll*

      Check out the jobs, and especially the “Part time” portion of Craigslist. Just be careful to take everything with a grain of salt, as there are some scammers on there too. But I’ve done some side work sourced from CL in the past.

    3. It's Not Ideal*

      This could be really physically demanding and I have no idea what your endurance looks like, but food service might be an option if you get desperate. I worked at McDonald’s for four years and we had women working up until they gave birth. It can be physically demanding, but food service typically expects high turnover, so you leaving after a few months wouldn’t be a big deal. And I’m betting you can probably request jobs that are a little less physically demanding (only be stationed at the cash register, for example) if you accept a job. Libraries (as a page or circulation desk) might be another option, but jobs there are really tight right now.

      1. It's Not Ideal*

        And you may also consider being a nanny. Nextdoor (the social media-ish website) is a great place to look for opportunities/offer your services.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          Nannying is good; it pays a little better than foodservice, and I have a lot of experience in that arena.

          Your suggestions are really helping. For a 5-month position I can leave off my resume, it’s okay if it’s not in line with my career goals. It’s just a matter of bringing in income while I can.

      2. orchidsandtea*

        Library jobs are hard to find at the moment. Foodservice is an option, and I make a good cashier. I like the idea of just searching for an open position that expects high turnover. The problem’s money. Around here minimum wage is $7.25; better than nothing, but not even half of what I need to make ends meet.

        1. SeekingBetter*

          You could try applying to restaurant establishments that need waitstaff. Some places are busy enough that, even when making only $3 an hour, with the tips from your shifts, you could be making closer to $15 dollars an hour. It’s very hard work and you’re on your feet a lot, but it’s something to consider if you can do it. Good luck!

    4. Sadie Doyle*

      If you’re able to be on your feet, maybe try retail — one of my coworkers is currently applying for a short-term second job in retail, and stores in the local malls are already interviewing in anticipation of Christmas shopping season.

      1. M*

        Motherhood maternity and Gymboree love hiring pregnant women. At Motherhood you can get a commission so that might help increase your hourly wage.

    6. Zombeyonce*

      Will you be getting unemployment? I believe that if you get laid off (and even when your hours are cut significantly in November), you may be eligible for it in the U.S. It may be affected by the amount you make for temp jobs (likely lower than your current pay) since it bases it on a certain number of months of pay. Be sure to run the numbers to make sure taking a temp job here and there won’t adversely affect unemployment you plan to apply for that can get you through what would have been maternity leave. I hesitate to suggest it, but taking work that pays you under the table may be a good option for you to maximize income now and during unemployment time.

      Since the U.S. is so backwards when it comes to family leave, this situation could actually be helpful, since you may be able to collect unemployment instead of having an unpaid maternity leave. (And if you were hoping to transition to something else anyhow.)

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Another note: Depending on how much you make, unemployment benefits could bring in more money than a minimum wage job at 40 hours a week, which will get harder and harder (especially in food service) as you get closer to your due date. I work a desk job and I could hardly get through a full day the last 1.5 months of my pregnancy.

        1. orchidsandtea*

          Yeah, I worry about that. I’m already a small lady with a big bump, and the bump’s growing fast.

          I just did the math. 47% of my current salary is still greater than a minimum wage job at 30 hrs a week. And most minimum wage positions here are 20-30 hours, to avoid paying benefits. I don’t know if I’ll have the stamina for one 40-hr-a-week job that keeps me on my feet; I definitely would struggle to hold 2, 20-hour gigs.

          1. Zombeyonce*

            I found a calculator where you can put in your income for different quarters and find out how much unemployment you’d receive (based on your state): http://fileunemployment.org/calculator.

            It could help you quite a bit when looking at temp jobs to decide if the money from that would make a big difference in your unemployment benefit dollars (and if minimum wage, it’s pretty likely it would make your unemployment checks go down).

          2. Yetanotherjennifer*

            Plus there is the money you could save by not buying things and eating at home. It’s not a huge amount but if you’re not going to a mall shop every day you’re not seeing things to buy and seeing the great deals you could snag by using your discount. And you’re not grabbing mall food for meals. You’ll also save on gas. Yes, you can be disciplined and avoid spending money where you work but it’s not for the faint of heart. Especially when you’re pregnant.

          3. Trillian*

            What’s your most valuable skill, in hourly wage and/or in demand? Can you turn it to freelance work or consultancy e.g., admin, marketing, or accountancy for local small business people or solo start-ups who need the skill but don’t have the work or can’t afford a full timer. Do you have a local office for startups and small business?

      1. Snazzy Hat*

        I worked at a craft store for three and a half years. After New Year’s day, no one was ever let go due to lack of business. Yeah, we had our hours chopped like onions during January and February, but the only seasonal employees who didn’t stay after (or through) the holidays left of their own volition. If you’re up for it, I’d suggest working at a place with that kind of turnover. I’m not sure if any other retail establishments have similar “no layoffs” guidelines.

    9. Anonon*

      Universities often have their own in-house temp services. Google “school name” + “temporary employment” or “temporary services.” They’re typically looking for short-term administrative workers to cover while a position is being filled or while someone is on leave.

      Get your resume on file with them now so you can complete any background or reference checks they require. Once you’re available to work immediately, call and let them know. Recruiters for temps are extremely high volume, so someone who’s upbeat, says they’re able to work immediately, and sounds professional on the phone stands out.

      It helps to take anything that’s offered, even if it’s below your skill level (like receptionist or filing clerk when you’re capable of being an exec admin or coordinator). Once one department gives you a good review, you get a lot more placements, and may even be requested by name. Recruiters go back to the same candidates if they’re good.

      1. Dragon*

        I second this university suggestion. You may find a temp job to cover holiday/January break time.

    10. Fact & Fiction*

      If you meet the requirements for your location, you could look bro substitute teaching.

    11. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Any call centers in your area? While not true temp work, they are used to people only staying a few months.

    13. BobcatBrah*

      Why not Uber? You set your own hours and it’s a sit-down job. Plus you get a hefty tax break for mileage.

  18. Mimmy*

    There’s a job at my state university that I’m thinking of applying for. The hitch is that I’m going away the week of the 17th, just 10 days away. How should I handle this? I know it can take a long time for university hiring, but this is a long-term temp, part-time position, so I have a feeling the process may not take as long.

    Oh, and it’s one of those things where they want a list of references right off the bat. Seriously?! For a temporary “casual” position??

    1. Ella*

      I work at a state university, and for us it’s really rare that we’d interview that quickly. Maybe, if they’ve posted a job closing date, it’s possible, but the process is often really slow. We typically do phone interviews first, which if you’re going away, you could hopefully do. We also request references right off the back, but we only contact them if someone is in their final stages. Obvi this could be different at your university, but that’s how it is around here!

    2. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t worry about your trip until it becomes an issue. (Assuming you’d be available to answer phone calls or emails.)

      It’s pretty common for a lot of job applications to ask for references up front. Particularly someplace large like a university that probably has a template.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I work at a state university. You’re fine to go on vacation! Just indicate in your cover letter when you’ll be gone, and whether you’ll still be reachable by phone/email.

      They want your references now BECAUSE this is a temporary part-time position. They need it filled now, so they want to cover all their bases ASAP.

      1. Bibliovore*

        For these kinds of positions, I do ask for references after seeing the resume and deciding that there is a fit. The references are pretty simple- do they show up on time? Can they work independently? Do they meet deadlines? How are their written and verbal skills? Can they take direction and ask questions?
        I usually do that by email.
        Second Lemon Zinger. It took me so long to get that job posted another few weeks won’t be a big deal.

    5. Mimmy*

      Thanks guys.

      But ARGH this is one onerous application system! I just don’t get the point of making me upload my resume and references list when you’ve already asked for that information in the online form!! Especially for a temporary, part-time position. I still have yet to do the required cover letter too.

      Being somewhat loopy on Benadryl (for severe poison ivy) is NOT helping matters :'(

  19. A.Z. Lazuli*

    I’ve worked one year at my current, fairly demanding job. It’s my first job after grad school.

    I’ve done ok but not great. Partly because of “external circumstances” like family issues and an unexpected medical emergency.
    But most of all because of my lack of structure and organization.

    Long story short, I’m starting ADHD-testing next week and hope that I will get additional tools to deal with my issues.

    I’ve been open with my boss about my family and medical issues and they’ve been incredibly supportive.
    I don’t plan on telling them exactly what I’m doing (hi mental health issues stigma) but should I give them some sort of heads up?

    Like “I’ve been dealing with even more medical issues but once that’s resolved I’ll do even better” or just (hopefully) just let my increased performance speak for itself?

    I’m not American so ADA is not applicable.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t. I’d just let your increased performance speak for itself. All telling them would do is set up expectations, and I don’t see that being to your advantage.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      By “ok but not great” do you mean you’ve gotten lukewarm feedback on your work, or is this solely a self judgement?

      I feel like I’m at the “competent but not exceptional” level right now but all my coworkers think I’m a high performer and my boss doesn’t give much feedback, but all that I do get is positive.

      On the other hand I have a coworker who probably thinks they’re doing “ok but not great” but actually, they are a low performer because they’re so unreliable and hard to work with that no one wants to be on projects with them. Part of their issue is a lack of self awareness. However, the fact that you’re asking this question suggests you are not that person.

  20. Abovelevel*

    After several months of job searching, I finally have 2 offers! One is from the place I have also been volunteering for about a month, let’s say Nonprofit A. Actually, I didn’t even really have to formally apply. The volunteer coordinator knew I was looking for work, so she referred me to the director as soon as a position opened up and all I had to do was sort of informally talk to her about it. The other position would be the same type of work at a slightly smaller organization, Nonprofit B.

    To be honest, both positions sound great in terms of the actual work I will be doing, but the commute to Nonprofit B would be MUCH easier (20 minutes vs 45). However, I feel sort of indebted to Nonprofit A and would feel bad turning down the position. Particularly, the director of Nonprofit A has been extremely kind and encouraging in trying to help me get the position at her organization. How can I approach Director A and let her know I’m not actually taking the position? Or am I totally off base and should I accept the position with A, given that I know the staff very well already and we clearly get along professionally?

    Thanks for any help or thoughts!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Do not feel professionally indebted! Take the job you are most excited about. If that’s Nonprofit B, you tell Director A that you appreciate all the opportunities you’ve received while volunteering, but the next best step for you professionally is to accept a role with Nonprofit B.

      1. Christopher Tracy*

        This. You don’t owe any organization fealty forever just because they’ve been kind to you in the past. If a long commute is a deal breaker for you in the long term, go with option B.

    2. Sunflower*

      There’s limited information here so I just want to make sure you are not basing your decision totally around the commute time. A short commute rocks but knowing you can work with your co-workers is golden. As long as you have a legitimate good feeling about B, then go for it! Just make sure you are considering ALL the factors.

      That being said, if Director at A is at all sane, she will understand and be happy for you. I’m sure there are lots of other qualified candidates they can hire. I would simply say ‘Thank you so much for considering me for the position of Teapot Maker. As you know, I have been job searching during my time volunteering here and I have been offered another position that I have accepted. My last day of volunteering(or can/do you want to continue to volunteer through this employment?) is XX/XX. I hope we can stay in touch in the future(if thats true).’

      Congrats!

      1. Abovelevel*

        Thank you both. You are definitely right, it is a close to entry level position so I’m sure they can easily find someone else!

        Just to clarify – yes, I am definitely excited about B for other reasons, though the commute is a huge bonus. Specifically, I would be in a much smaller department at B, and therefore I would taking on some higher level responsibilities. Also, everyone at B seems great, but having worked with people that were difficult in the past, I am extra cautious about not ending up in that situation again. Though in this case, nothing seems to indicate that the employees at B are anything but totally normal and lovely!

        1. neverjaunty*

          You owe A nothing other than courtesy and appreciation for their opportunities. You don’t owe them sticking around to ‘pay them back’.

          1. Bibliovore*

            Since A is a non-profit, you can continue to support them by making small contributions and mentoring those who wish to continue in your line of work.

    3. BRR*

      Stop feeling indebted to Nonprofit A (or ever to any employer) and then make the decision. Salary, benefits, commute (I have a super long commute so this one is important to me at the moment), office culture etc. Sunflower has perfect wording.

  21. Dave*

    Ahh, what a week!

    I was waiting to hear back from one job (A), while prepping for a second interview for another (B).

    On Tuesday, I got an email from somebody at organization A, not associated with the position I applied for. They said the hiring manager for Position A gave them my name and they were wondering if I would be interested in an entirely different position. I said I’d be happy to come in and chat, but asked what this meant for my candidacy for the job I applied for. They explained that the hiring manager for A was very impressed but they had another candidate who was just perfect and had more experience. Anyway, I went in the next day for an interview and to learn more about the job. It was … okay. But not nearly as interesting as the job I applied for. Lots of data and numbers and that’s not something I am sure I want to do every day. Plus, one of the interviewers—with whom I’d work directly—had a weird manner (kept interrupting me and was very brusque asking questions).

    By the time I got home, I had an invitation for a second interview, a short one (1/2 hour), with someone in HR. They also asked for my references, which I provided.

    Then yesterday, I had the second interview with the other organization. It went really well, I think, and the job and organization sounds great. But they said at the end they’d like to have me back for a THIRD round, in the next week or two.

    My worry is that A is planning to offer me the job and I won’t be able to buy enough time to see B through all the way. I want B so much more—it’s way more interesting work, the commute is better, the location is better—but I’ve been unemployed for close to 4 months now and need a job. I’m not sure what I’ll do.

    I mean, I don’t know for sure if they’re going to offer me A, but I know they’ve contacted my references. I have the call with the HR person at 4:00 today and they said they want to move fast so I am not sure what to do here. I guess it’s a good problem to have, but… the second job sounds so much better…

        1. Dave*

          I looked at these posts.

          My main concern is less the “protocol” of handling it, which I am comfortable with, and more that the timing will mean that I’ll be faced with having to turn down Job A and gamble on Job B, or take Job A and then face missing out on a job I’d like much better. I’m not sure how to make that decision. If I was presently employed, it’d be easy to turn down A and wait on B, but I’m not.

          A friend I discussed it with said just take A and then back out if B comes through but I’m not sure if I am ethically comfortable with that. These are both huge massive companies, but I’d hate to inconvenience these people that much. It’d be a more welcome problem if the job at A was the original one I applied for (way more interesting than one I may be offered now). The main reason to look forward to A is it would get me in a big organization and I think there might be opportunity to change jobs down the road but I don’t know if that’s a good enough rationale for taking a job.

          1. Collie*

            I think sometimes there just aren’t ideal options. You may find that A ends up being better than you first perceived and works out okay. You certainly could back out of an offer (Alison’s used language like, “An opportunity came up that I just couldn’t pass up.”) with the understanding that you’re burning that bridge. Meanwhile, it doesn’t sound like A has offered anything yet, so you’ve got a little time. Good luck! I’m potentially going into a similar situation over the next few weeks, so I empathize.

          2. N.J.*

            I can’t give you concrete advice on which to choose but this is the process I would use. If you don’t take A when offered and B falls through as well, would you be in dire financial straits i.e. Do you need a job, any job, as quickly as possible? Do either of the positions differ significantly in pay or benefits? Do you know what the typical career progression path would look like at both places? So if you took B be a side that is the one you think has a better commute, are you likely to be stasified in that position if there is no room to move up? The same for A–it isn’t a position you particularly like, so how likely is it for you to move into a different position and in what time frame? Is either organization more or less stable, interesting etc.? Does either have some sort of stellar reputation that would open doors for you at other places in the future? Do you have a better chance at excelling with the job duties of either one? How much do you like the current director of A—is this one of those situations where everybody at A is so fantastic and inspiring and works so well together that it would be worth it for the atmosphere alone??

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Well, wait, are you doing the part from the post about calling A once you have an offer from B and saying “I have another offer — are you able to speed up your process?” That’s the crucial part.

            1. Dave*

              I will, if I do get an offer. But part of the holdup with B is that the department head is away and so it may be impossible to proceed any more quickly.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Oh, right, I mixed them up! Sorry. Ah, then that makes more sense and I see the issue. I think at a minimum you can try asking if they can give you a sense of how strong a candidate you are (explaining you suspect you’re soon to get an offer somewhere else, but B would be your first choice). That might not give you useful info, but it might — you might learn that they have a strong internal candidate or they’re talking to a zillion people or so forth, and you could factor that in.

                  But beyond that, I think you just have to decide how upset you’d be if you turned down A and B didn’t come through either. I’d try to avoid taking an offer you think you might back out of.

                4. Doodle*

                  Sorry, Alison — wasn’t trying to pile on about the A/B confusion! Just didn’t refresh in time. :)

                5. Dave*

                  Yes, as others have pointed out, B is the one I want. My naming convention is far too confusing.

                  As it turns out the Friday interview was another interview. Strangely, it felt more like an initial interview than the earlier interview did. This second one was with HR and it was a lot of standard questions (“Tell me about your career goals for the next 5 years, tell me about a time when you failed”). But they did say I was a finalist and that they were contacting references (which my references had already told me) and that they want to make a decision by the end of next week.

                  I am not sure if I should wait until I have a formal offer before I contact position B or if I should contact them immediately and say “I was told I am a finalist and they expect to make a decision this week but you’re my first choice; it’d be great if we could have that next chat very soon.” Since I don’t actually have an offer there’s no REAL urgency, but I would much prefer to not miss up the second opportunity because somebody on their end was away last week :/

          4. EyesWideOpen*

            I would not advise taking Job A and then back out if Job B comes through unless it is okay for you to burn that bridge with Job A. Given that Job A is a big organization, burning that bridge might be a bad decision.

            I know this is a hard decision. I have been here myself and I made the wrong decision by taking Job A and not waiting for Job B even though Job B kept telling me to be patient an offer would happen. Did Job B explain why they need another round of interviews? Is there any way to push the Job B interview forward by telling them you have another job offer but you would prefer their position.

  22. Lacie*

    Any tips for dealing with an absentminded/overbooked boss? We have a high volume of work to do at our tiny company, and lots of it slips through the cracks due to her forgetfulness. I’m new to the workforce, but very diligent and detail oriented, so I have caught a lot of her mistakes. She’s already started cc’ing me on most of her emails so I can remind her to follow up– but it’s not enough! She forgets about meetings, misses deadlines, etc. Any advice on how to tactfully manage the manager here?

    1. Sadsack*

      What kind of calendar system are you and she using? How is she forgetting meetings? Are they not on a calendar, or does she just not look at her calendar?

      1. Lacie*

        We’re using google calendar. I believe she’s using it, anyway– but often she’ll leave early for the day, take a long weekend, or go out for lunch, and then someone will come in saying they have a meeting with her. My guess is they are on her calendar, but she doesn’t look at it and the reminders get buried in her overflowing inbox.

        1. Murphy*

          I keep Calendar open in a browser tab all day and I have pop up alerts, so it will either pop up or flash before a meeting. Really helpful to me when I lose track of time.

      2. Mazzy*

        I think the problem with calendars is people don’t look far ahead in them. They will forget about a meeting until the 30 minute reminder pops up and sometimes even then they just instinctively close it because it is an interruption. Believe it or not people still do miss stuff even though it is in their calendar

    2. fposte*

      Can you outright ask her? I count on my staff to be just this sort of safety net, and it’s fine if they want to ask me how to help track my workflow/schedule/deadlines.

      1. Lacie*

        For sure! I asked her about it at my 6-month review, which is why she started CC’ing me on her important emails. But it’s been about a few weeks since then, and it’s definitely not a complete solution. I don’t want to come across as harping her on it by bringing it up again so soon.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, that makes sense; I think you’re right to turn now to coming up with possibilities on your own.

    3. Barbara in Swampeast*

      Google calendar? It can send updates to her phone to remind her of meetings.

      Make up a daily calendar report to give to her each morning listing meetings and deadlines and info you need to complete your work.

      1. Lacie*

        Oh, that’s a good idea. I’ll talk to her and see if she’d be amenable to that. My concern is that I’m not officially in any sort of secretarial or office manager position, so I worry about how far I should be managing her schedule for her. My role is as an inside sales and AR associate, but we’re so small that I’ve unofficially been wearing the secretarial hat since day 1 (if I didn’t, I couldn’t get the info necessary to do the sales and AR stuff that is my official job).

        1. TheCupcakeCounter*

          I second Barbara’s suggestion. Even if you aren’t in that type of position if it is easy to print it out at the beginning of the day just do it. Even better if you can do it at the end of the previous day so she can plan lunches etc…the night before.

          1. OhBehave*

            I was going to suggest a similar solution. In addition to handing this to her – printed – grab a few minutes to quickly review the schedule. Seeing and hearing about her commitments may help trigger her memory. If you’re comfortable with this, keep her schedule at your fingertips so that when she does leave for xyz, you can gently remind her that she has a meeting with Tea Pot Painter. I know being her keeper is not your job, but as others have said, working in a small company many hats are worn.

            That being said, if this becomes too much to handle in addition to your hired responsibilities, definitely speak up. It sounds like she’s coming to rely on you to keep her ducks in a row. You should be compensated fairly for this additional task.

        2. Garland Not Andrews*

          The thing with small business is that you have to wear multiple hats. I think managing her calendar is a necessary thing as it impacts your primary work.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Draw it back on yourself.

          “Boss, your schedule is so full, I can’t keep track of where you are! I decided I needed to make a copy of your calendar each morning (or night before) so I can be sure. Would you like me to make one for you too?”

          Then go situation by situation. “Sue came in for her meeting with you and I told her you were not here. How would you like me to handle this going forward?” (This assumes that meeting with Sue is different from meeting with, oh, say, Bob. Different people, different ranks on the ladder, different topics, etc.)

    4. Mazzy*

      I don’t have any magic tricks or tips to use, but since you say you’re new to the workforce, I wanted to say that it is totally fine to “manage” your boss. Catching your boss’s errors, reminding them of deadlines and meetings – all completely acceptable to do, and even more so in busy environments. I know it can seem annoying because you feel like you’re doing part of your managers job, or because you feel more responsible than they are even though they are in a higher level role, but you have to trust that they are being forgetful because they have alot of other work on their mind. They are probably grateful when you come to their office as say “hey did you remember the meeting at noon?” or whatever.

      Also, a little bit of chaos is good. I worked somewhere shortly when everyone was on top of everything, and it was pretty boring. A boss who’s disorganized is an opportunity to take on new work.

  23. AngtheSA*

    Hi Everyone,

    I am currently working in the Accounting department of a Medium sized company. I really love this job and could definitely see a future in accounting. I have my finance degree though. Would it be worth it to go back to school and get my accounting degree and then maybe sit for my CPA. Does anyone have experience doing this? What were some of the challenges you faced working full time and doing this?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      If I were you, I’d just go back to school to get enough credits to sit the exam. Unless you are in a state that requires a masters, then you may as well get the masters of accountancy.

      I have an economics degree and I passed the test last year. Not going to lie – it is HARD to get into the rhythm of studying while working FT. But it can be done, especially if you are careful with your time. This’ll easily be two or so years of your life, if you need more schooling beforehand. Just make sure you build in rest/social/self-care time as well as a ton of studying time and treat is as a marathon, not a sprint.

    2. Blue Anne*

      No advice except that I’m looking at doing the same thing myself. Degree is in philosophy, now I’m working as an accountant and I’ll probably have to do a master’s to become eligible for the CPA. (It wasn’t a requirement when I was working in Scotland!)

      Everyone I’ve talked to seems to think it’s eminently do-able and very much worth it.

    3. AngtheSA*

      My state requires you have at least 150 hours from an accredited institution, I currently have 135 but I also have to have specific accounting course, so basically I almost need my accounting degree to get it. I am only 18 hours short of getting my degree so it is duable. How long would it typically take to get my CPA?

      1. Natalie*

        It depends on your state, but there’s always a required amount of hours that you work under a licensed CPA, in addition to passing the test and completing the education requirements.

    4. Natalie*

      I have a history degree, got into accounting, and am now back in school. It is hard, but manageable. You will probably have an easier time since there is typically some overlap between finance and accounting as far as required classes (there are a lot of finance students in my accounting classes).

      Check the requirements in your state, and talk to the other people in your accounting department.

    5. Sibley*

      There’s a lot of misunderstanding happening here. You don’t need a masters to take the CPA exam. You need the required number of credits and the required classes (those vary by state). A lot of people are getting a masters because they graduate and don’t have enough credits to qualify. Before the credit hour requirement, a Masters of Accountancy was a joke in the profession (masters in tax was good).

      If you either need the credits or the accounting classes, a masters is perfectly valid. Not required.

      The CPA exam itself is a ton of work. It’s a full time job to study. If you want to do basic accounting (bookkeeping, etc), then you probably don’t need a CPA license. If you want to do auditing or go higher, then a license will be required or very helpful.

        1. Friday Brain All Week Long*

          Each state makes their own rules about requirements and I think some do require an actual Masters. But I think all require the amount of units a Masters would be. I did my supplemental education mostly at junior colleges.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        THIS. No need for OP to go back for a whole new degree (a bachelor’s would make no sense; a master’s would be a better choice). Just get the required credits, but focus on studying for the CPA exam!

      3. Sibley*

        I didn’t phrase that right. There’s a lot of misunderstanding happening in general, not specifically on this comment. I’m a CPA, and the way I hear this spoken about a lot people don’t seem to understand that’s there a difference between needing a master’s degree and needing more credits so they got a master’s degree.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      I did it. I got my Master’s online and I can not over state the sheer benefit of the flexibility of that kind of format. Mostly you just have to carve the time out of your schedule to study. If your employer is willing, sitting at your desk and working on school work during lunch breaks is a time saver.

    7. TheCupcakeCounter*

      It depends on your state and where you see your career path going. If you are working at the corporate level and have no desire to go work in public accounting than a CMA might be just as valuable (sometimes more so depending on your area) although it is not a widely recognized as a CPA. My state require 150 credits with a certain concentration in accounting plus a year of public accounting experience so it isn’t worth it to me since I will never work public accounting. If you state does not have than requirement and you see yourself ever working in an audit or tax area it is worth it. With a Finance degree you can probably just take a few accounting classes to brush up some skills and get to the required number of credit hours as someone suggested without go full masters route.

    8. AngtheSA*

      Thanks Everyone for your comments. This is really my first accounting role that is just all accounting work.(I use to work as a admin but I did some accounts payable) I am a bit overwhelmed and just though that maybe brushing up with some accounting classes would help me with this fish out of water experience.

    9. baseballfan*

      If you have a degree in finance, you have already taken some accounting, but probably minimal.

      Some states require a minimum number of hours of accounting to sit for the exam, in addition to the minimum total college hours.

      I would focus on those requirements, specific to your state, rather than getting a whole other degree. There are a lot of very specific topics covered in the CPA exam that, frankly, may or may not have been covered in any class. It’s just that comprehensive. I took the CPA about 20 years ago and then recently I have been tutoring a couple of people who were planning to sit for it. Despite the fact that you can now take it part by part and don’t have to take it all at once, it’s still very difficult. Studying is at least a part time job (expect to put in a few hours a day at least).

      All that being said, it’s possible to have an enjoyable career in accounting without a CPA, especially if you are in house. Public firms will expect it, but otherwise, you can probably dispense with it.

  24. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s moving day!!
    So excited!!!!!! (especially because I have to do NONE of the work!)

    !!!

    1. bluesboy*

      None? How did you manage that? I move on average every 3-4 years or so and find I have so much to do with throwing stuff away, packing up boxes, even if a removal crew does the heavy lifting it’s still a lot of work!

      Congratulations, I hope you love your new place every bit as much as you’re excited about it!

  25. Lunch Meat*

    Feeling sleepy during meetings.

    I work for an organization of less than 100 staff. We don’t have all staff meetings that often, but when we do there tends to be a lot of talking by some not very dynamic speakers. I was drifting off during this week’s meeting. I hadn’t had as much coffee as usual, but I was drinking water, squeezing a stress ball to give me something to do, sitting up straight, focusing on breathing and the words the speaker was saying. But even so I drifted a couple of times. Not snoring or jerking my head when I woke up, but at least one person did notice that my eyes were closed for a few minutes at a time. Any suggestions when this starts to happen? I feel really bad and I’m nervous because the people talking were high-level people.

    2. A.Z. Lazuli*

      If it won’t be too noticeable, might a hair tie or rubberband on your wrist that you can “snap yourself ” with?

    3. BabyShark*

      I tend to bite the inside of my cheek when I’m struggling to stay awake, I find it helps. Taking notes is also helpful because it forces you to focus and you get the bonus of looking incredibly interested and studious.

    5. Friday Brain All Week Long*

      No solutions, but this is me too. Yesterday I checked the label of my starbucks two or three times to make sure it didn’t reference decaf. And this was a meeting I was actively participating in too.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Just do it. Claim your back and the chair aren’t getting along if asked. Also it helps if you sit in the back to begin with.

    7. justsomeone*

      Take notes! Even if you’re just going to recycle them at the end of the meeting, by taking notes, you’re more actively engaged in what’s happening.

      2. A Good Jess*

        +1 on this — I always bring a notebook and take notes. If the meeting/speaker is reeeeally terrible, then sometimes I’ll be making planning notes about something else I’m working on, but still. If you take notes then you stay awake and nobody will question you.

    9. the_scientist*

      The elastic on the wrist trick works for me, usually. I also find that I get sleepy during meetings when the room is warm so I’ll shed a layer since if I’m a little bit chilly I’m suddenly not sleepy anymore.

      Also, was the meeting just after lunch? Eating a big meal and then sitting in a boring meeting = instant sleepiness for me.

      Finally a check on any meds you’re taking and if those could be making you drowsy might be a good idea, if this is a regular thing and not a one-off. I had to step the dose of my antidepressant down recently because I was literally nodding off at my desk in the morning, like I could NOT keep my eyes open. Fortunately I don’t drive to work!

    10. Ultraviolet*

      I’ve been there! One thing I sometimes do to stay awake is tune out for a few minutes and think about one of my own projects and write down some notes about it. It’s not ideal obviously, but better than sleeping.

      Also, sometimes I start focusing on what kind of feedback I might give if someone asked me to critique the presentations. I enjoy that, so it tends to wake me up.

      If it’s really bad, can you fake a coughing fit and step out for a second?

      Also, I might be misunderstanding your meaning, but focusing on breathing sounds to me like a way to relax and fall asleep rather than stay awake! Unless you’ve had success with this method in the past, I’m not sure I’d keep trying it.

    11. BRR*

      Not being snarky but I would suggest more coffee if you know it’s going to be something boring.

      Is it acceptable to get up and use the restroom? If I’m nodding off I need the hard reset of getting up.

    12. NW Mossy*

      Just as a general comment (not saying it applies to you necessarily), if you persistently have trouble staying awake during passive situations like meetings, lectures, and movies, it may be a sign of a sleep disorder. Mr. Mossy struggled with this during his teens and early twenties, only to learn through a sleep study that he actually has a mild form of narcolepsy – other symptoms can include falling asleep very quickly and extremely vivid dreams. It took a while to get his medication dialed in, but once he did, he started sleeping better and is more able to manage his symptoms. His diagnosis prompted both his dad and brother to get tested, and it turns out that both of them also have narcolepsy.

      Sleep disorders can really wreak havoc with your life but it’s really easy to attribute the symptoms to just not getting enough sleep. While that can certainly be true, if the sleep you do get is poor quality, trying to sleep longer may not be enough.

      1. Somniloquist*

        I was just going to reply with this! Thank you! Before I was diagnosed (hypersomnia here!) my coping mechanisms were lots of coffee, not eating any simple carbohydrates at lunch (no sandwiches, nothing with sugar in it), and a cup of cold water in meetings. I wasn’t allowed to stand up.

        Taking notes didn’t work for me because I would fall asleep while taking them, although it was a good cover, people don’t always know your eyes are if you’re looking down and your hand is moving… (this is not a good solution though)

        I take a medicine to keep me awake now, when I need to, but the no sugar at lunch is really the most helpful.

    13. Trix*

      I agree with a lot of these suggestions. Water (the colder the better!), taking notes (even if they have nothing to do with what’s being said), and standing up (whether to just lean against the wall for a few minutes, or to take a quick bathroom break).

    14. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      The only thing that works for me is sleep the night before. I will say that my brain is remarkably adept at going to sleep, though…even when reading…or writing… or (supposedly) focusing…. I even fall asleep while drinking a very disgusting Monster energy. :(

      Don’t think I’ve nodded off while eating, though. You might try that. Something not loud, but not gum.

  26. G-Unit*

    How do you keep yourself in check and not quit a job when you have a horrible boss?

    I had two interviews this week and really hope one pans out, but I can barely phone it in right now – my boss is so awful. Other people in the office have come up to me and apologized on her behalf for how badly she treats me. I just got off the phone with her yelling at me for something someone else did and it was all I could do not to quit on the spot.

    1. Trout 'Waver*

      Mindfulnesss and self-care.

      You control how you respond to people. Don’t give up that control. When she yells and blames and acts like an idiot, it’s no failing on your part that she’s incompetent and can’t communicate effectively.

      Actively pursue things outside of work that make you happy. Be a little selfish and take time for you do the things that you know will reduce your stress level.

      Don’t focus on the negativity. Some kvetching is OK. But constantly complaining or turning every conversation into how your boss is an asshole will just make you more angry and negative. Not your fault, obviously, but maybe set a 15-minute bitching session time limit and move on to positive things after you’ve vented.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Try “detached observing” – like you’re an anthropologist investigating a new culture. Think about it like you’re making notes about your field study of this culture. It helps you get a bit of emotional distance.

    3. neverjaunty*

      In your spare time, job hunt like a mofo. Even if you don’t get any hits or don’t find anything super exciting, you will feel like you are giving yourself chances to get out.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      Music is my outlet. I have certain songs or playlists for a variety of situations. If you can’t use headphones at work take 5 minutes to go out to your car and blast a song that will de-stress you (depending on what else is going on for me that is either a very hard rock/metal song with lots of bad words or something calm and soothing). If you can get away and take a 5 minute walk that might also help.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      The reality might be that you need to leave. I can’t tell for sure.

      However, remind yourself that you do have support from these other people who are apologizing. Find reasons to talk with these people, even if the best you can sneak by with is “Good morning!” make that effort to connect with them randomly through the day.

      If you can get to chat with them longer ask them what others have done in your position that worked for them.

      Give yourself DAILY treats, but make the treats an investment in you. For example a walk after dinner. Touch base with a friend see how your friend is doing. Deliberately weave something positive in to your personal life each day.

  27. Aggravated Admin*

    I’m an office administrator, but due to the small size and nature of my organization I wear many hats. I do everything from answering phones and overseeing the calendar to planning special events and managing various projects. In regards to the phones, our system is set up so that when there is an incoming call, everyone’s phone will ring. I am the “first line of defense” in that if I am at my desk and available, I will answer the call on the first ring. If I’m away from my desk or tied up with something else, another staff member will try to grab the phone on the second or third ring.

    I have noticed there is one staff member in particular – let’s call her Emily – who is pretty ambivalent about lots of calls she receives. We have caller ID, and some people have a tendency to glance at their phone to see who is calling when the phone rings. Often times if I pick up a call that is for Emily, I will call her desk and she will answer the phone and instead of saying something like “hello,” a very typical response for her is “Ugh! Nooo I do not want to talk to that person. Send him/her to my voicemail.”

    This doesn’t happen all the time, but it happens often enough that I’m getting really tired of the negativity. I also find it a bit rude. Most other people will pick up the phone and say “hello” to me when I ring their desk with a phone call. Emily’s greetings, or lack-there-of, almost makes me feel like she is talking down to me. I get we all have calls we don’t want to take sometimes, but I sometimes get the impression that she feels my main job is to screen her calls for her.

    Am I being over-sensitive here? Is this worth bringing up to my manager, or should I try talking to Emily directly?

    1. J*

      Are you picking it up before Emily gets a chance to? Or is Emily ignoring the call and you’re picking it up as a courtesy?

      If it’s the latter, maybe just stop answering calls for Emily. She doesn’t seem to appreciate having the filter and she can make her own decisions about when she has time to respond to the caller.

      If it’s the former, maybe just send Emily’s calls to her voicemail without checking in with her.

      Either way, you don’t need to screen her calls. Just give her a heads up that this is how you’ll approach it in the future, and let her sort it out.

      1. Aggravated Admin*

        I’m picking up the calls because I’m expected to answer the phone first if I am available. Sometimes she may recognize the caller but I won’t, or caller ID isn’t specific (ie it’ll say Unavailable) and when I tell her who it is she reacts negatively. I wish I could not answer her calls, but unfortunately that’s not really an option since it’s not always easy to tell who it is. :(

        My manager attempted to change the way our phone system works, in that she wanted it to become more automated. Right now if someone calls our number, the phone just rings 4 times before it goes to voicemail. My manager had my change it so that the caller would hear the company greeting, then an employee directory, and then “if you don’t know who you need to talk to, press this number.” This would have been the perfect solution to my problem, but unfortunately our director was not on board with this system so we had to change it back.

        1. EyesWideOpen*

          I would let it go even though it is annoying because it is your job to answer the phone if you are available. Though if you want to be passive-aggressive, the next time someone calls for Emily just put them straight through to her voice mail. If she calls you on it just explain that since she always seems to prefer to have calls sent to her voice mail, you just started to do this as your general practice.

          1. J*

            You don’t even have to be passive aggressive about it. A simple, “Hey, Emily, I’m at a loss for how to handle your calls. How would you feel about me sending them to voicemail and you can prioritize them when you have a moment?”

    2. fposte*

      Is she otherwise civil to you? Then I’d let it her comments go and consider that you’re just getting her unfiltered response to a cold call and she’s sharing with you, not rejecting you. If the problem is that you’re not supposed to send callers to voice mail, I’d raise that with her specifically.

      1. Aggravated Admin*

        Yes, otherwise we get along fine. I think you may be right in that I’m just getting her initial reaction. I don’t think she MEANS to be a jerk, she just sounds like one.

        Another issue is she (and some others in the office) do not like getting voicemails. If I send someone to her voicemail, often times she will question me about it. She’s not particularly rude here but I get the sense she much prefers if I instruct people to email her rather than leave her a message. I do this when I can, but some callers prefer to leave an actual voicemail.

          1. Aggravated Admin*

            Yep, I think that’s accurate! It makes no sense that we have continued with the current setup. Apparently the final decision makers feel that switching to an automated system = bad customer service.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              That’s so annoying that they won’t consider it–I know customers don’t like it, but when others don’t pick up their calls, it amounts to the same thing.

            2. catsAreCool*

              It depends on the automated system. I’ve had problems getting past my cable company’s automated system and sometimes have reached a dead end and had to hang up and call again. I remember one time when I was so frustrated by it, it took some self control not to yell at the person who finally did pick up. And I’m not a yeller. I didn’t yell (I was actually pretty nice); I knew it wasn’t that person’s fault, and I didn’t want to be one of those obnoxious customers who blame the person who is trying to help, but for a few seconds, I really wanted to. And I’ve worked in customer service, so I know better!

              I guess my thought is, if the automated system isn’t fairly easy, people will be more stressed and tough to deal with when they finally get to you.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Can you just push the call through to her desk without announcing it to her?

          Can she tell her people that the easiest way to contact her is email? (As opposed to you delivering this message?)

    3. Manders*

      Is Emily in a position where a lot of vendors might be cold-calling her or calling her repeatedly to try to get a response? She could definitely stand to be politer, but I understand a certain amount of frustration if she’s trying to get someone to stop calling, but then you’re picking up the phone and saying she’s available.

      1. Aggravated Admin*

        She gets some calls from vendors but her position has changed to where she gets less. I think she prefers communicating with people via email rather than phone, and I know she gets irritated when people email her and then call if she hasn’t responded soon enough for them. She’s okay with responding to emails within 48-72 hours but some people she works with expect a quicker response than that.

        1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

          Yeah, this is definitely her reaction to being annoyed by these people calling her and has nothing to do with you at all. She probably feels comfortable enough with you to respond the way she does and likely would be upset to hear that her approach has hurt your feelings. I know I’ve definitely done the “Ugh, NOOOOOO,” when my office admin has grabbed a call for me in the past. I know for me, at least in my previous role, I had people who would call me and say, “Hi, you are on speaker with [entire team of people] and we want to discuss [thing we intend to steamroll you on that we couldn’t get away with over email]!” It’s exhausting.

          I would try not to take it personally, because, having been in Emily’s shoes, I can very much assure you that it is NOT personal.

        2. TootsNYC*

          yeah, 72 hours would be pretty long for a business email if I have a legit reason to contact her. 48 is about the outside, actually.

          1. OhBehave*

            I agree that 48 hours is too long in responding to an email. My limit is 24 hours.

            Her reaction is not directed to you. Most likely it’s an interruption in her day and you really don’t know what the caller wants. Perhaps it’s a long-winded person who blathers on about nothing. Sometimes I get so engrossed in what I’m working on that I react to interruptions grumpily. It also sounds like she’s not comfortable speaking on the phone and would rather be in control, which makes email communication ideal for her.

    4. TV15*

      Eh, I think you are being a little over-sensitive. I don’t see anything condescending in how she’s responding. Sure it would be nicer if she said “hello, can you send him/her to my voicemail please?” but what you’ve described doesn’t seem to rise to the level of escalating it to your manager.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I agree that you should some how disconnect from this situation, it definitely is not personal.

      I would find it annoying if others answer their calls and Emily is Most Likely to Not Answer.

      Maybe your solution is to send all her calls to voice mail and let her sort that out herself.
      You could say, “you know, I see that you like your calls going to voice mail a lot. Would you like me to just send all calls there and you can handle it as you see fit?”

      I can’t tell but it could be you have an underlying concern that is masquerading as annoyance with her frequent use of voice mail. If customers are annoyed with Emily’s slow response time then that is what you need to talk about. “Emily, Bob was pretty upset when I shipped his call to your voice mail. How do we handle this differently so that I can cue you when a customer reeeeally needs to speak with you? “

  28. Anon for this One*

    Dear HR folks. If you send out a form rejection e-mail to all applicants, that’s fine. I get it. But it’s rude and condescending to say you “extensively reviewed my resume and application” and that you were “greatly impressed by my skills”. If you did in fact extensively review my resume, you’d see that I listed accomplishments and not skills. If you both extensively reviewed and you were greatly impressed, but you chose not to contact me in any meaningful way, then I am seriously questioning your hiring practices. But whatever.

    I know why HR people do this. But I am very well qualified and have a strong track record of success. Getting a condescending form e-mail makes me less likely to apply for future openings at that company. If that’s intended, well, good for you.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Eh. I’m going to push back on this. I think you’re nitpicking on accomplishments vs skills (and having accomplishments makes it clear that you have skills). And you can absolutely be impressed by someone’s achievements and still not think it makes sense to interview them for a particular job (wrong fit, better candidates, lacking some particular thing you need). I see this idea of “if they were so impressed with me, why didn’t they interview me?” come up a lot here, and I think it’s sort of missing a fundamental point of how hiring works; you can be amazing and still not the right person for a particular job.

      That said, it’s a form letter, so by definition it’s also going to people who they weren’t at all impressed by. But it’s really not rude/condescending to send a polite form rejection that attempts to be kind to people — and I think if you’re at the point where you’re feeling huffy about that, it’s probably more a sign of frustration with the search process or something else.

      1. Anon for this One*

        At best it is insincere. And I don’t view insincerity as politeness. There are many ways to write rejection letters that are both polite and sincere. This was not one of them.

        And honestly, softening bad news is something you do to children, not professionals.

        1. Anon for this One*

          I mean, “softening bad news with insincere flattery”, not all forms of softening bad news.

          1. Anon for this One*

            First off, this more intended as a vent than anything else. This isn’t a big deal and I’m past it, other than posting about it anonymously for comment in an open thread filled with people on both sides of the hiring process.

            But also, I think I’m a pretty reasonable person and I know I’m a strong candidate for this and other roles at this particular company. I did feel insulted by this form letter because I thought it was insincere and unprofessional. Words matter.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Words do matter! Which is why I’m pushing back when you say that some of this is rude and condescending, since I believe strongly that it’s not. (And I also believe strongly that reading too much into form letters takes people in all kinds of wrong directions, evidence of which ends up in my mailbox nearly every day.) And it’s basically impossible to write a form rejection that will please everyone. But we can agree to disagree.

              1. Anon for this One*

                It felt rude and condescending to me, the person who got the letter. I doubt it was intended to be rude and condescending. But that’s how it came off to me.

            2. fposte*

              Sure, but that doesn’t mean they’re not true, or that they have to be literally true. You write “Dear so-and-so” to people who aren’t dear to you, right?

              It sounds like this might be a particularly fulsome rejection letter and that fulsome is not your style; that I can get behind, and I’d find it particularly annoying in that situation.

            3. Jadelyn*

              When you start a “vent” post by directly addressing it to a specific group of people, a not-insignificant number of which are part of the AAM community, that’s a lot less a vent and a lot more a borderline attack, on the profession if not the individual.

              Honestly, you may be a very reasonable person most of the time, but this comes off like you’re taking this rejection WAY too personally.

              Out of curiosity, what would it have taken for you to not be angry about it? How would you suggest such an email be worded, especially to a candidate who is a strong candidate but still not being invited to interview (because there are other candidates who more closely fit the specific role)? I’m genuinely curious.

              1. Anon for this One*

                Angry is a strong word. I’d probably go more for ‘miffed’.

                A simple thanks for applying and that they decided to go with another candidate is perfectly fine. Keep it professional instead of fulsome. (Love that word, fposte)

            4. TV15*

              I understand the need to vent. It can feel so disappointing when the interview process concludes in a way that makes you feel they didn’t take you seriously and weren’t being authentic. It sucks and IMO, it’s perfectly healthy to whine about it sucking and get it out of your system.

          2. TootsNYC*

            I agree about the “putting an awful lot of weight on the specific wording in a form letter!

        3. Charlotte Collins*

          I just wish more places would send out rejection letters instead of just leaving one hanging…

          On that note, I would have liked it if the tech company I applied for and spent what amounted to a full-day worth of testing and phone interviewing with had personalized their rejection letter a little more. I basically retook my ACT for these people – a little feedback would have been nice. (As would have not had *the exact same* writing test given to me twice – I was pretty tempted to just write, “See my previous answer.)

          Also, it would be nice if my company did not send form letter rejections to internal candidates. It’s pretty cold.

          1. Florida*

            Agree that a form letter is better than leaving one hanging. I’d take an insincere form letter over nothing any day of the week.

          3. voluptuousfire*

            Many companies don’t give direct feedback to avoid potential awkwardness. I once was given feedback from a job interview via a scheduled phone call (no mention about feedback, just about my candidacy). I thought I was being offered the job, but they rejected me and told me why. It was really odd and very off-putting and put the company on my mental blacklist for future job applications.

            While I completely understand where you’re coming from, its mostly to avoid awkwardness, potential pushback and even threats.

          4. OhBehave*

            I received a form letter addressed to the WRONG PERSON but at my address! I didn’t even know the addressee. This was with a huge corporation.

        4. Mazzy*

          I can 100% honestly say I’ve been impressed with many candidates’ resumes and would never consider them for the job, so it isn’t always a word game. Sometimes I think their skills or computer knowledge is too different from what they’d be using, sometimes they seem overqualified, sometimes the cover letter doesn’t explain why they would be a good fit, all despite having great resumes.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Eh. I take it with a grain of salt and don’t really find it condescending. At least there WAS a reply.
      Better wording to me is just simpler, more along the lines of
      Thank you for applying for Position XX, but we’re moving forward with other candidates… type of thing.

    3. Karanda Baywood*

      You’re assuming something that isn’t there. Form letters are jsut that: anonymous and unfeeling and a tool for telling you “no.”

      Honestly, one is just like another. Bottom line, you didn’t get the job.

    4. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      I know you’re venting, but I do want to tell you that I think you’re over-personalizing this. I think this is a good argument for why some people don’t give clear feedback on why you weren’t selected – because candidates try to argue with them. Nobody is saying you’re not qualified or that you don’t have a strong track record of success, but you might just not have the specific background they’re looking for.

        1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

          Right. And what I’m saying is that the way you’re responding is part of the reason why places send form letters instead of more specific stuff. You’re arguing with the content of a form letter – how would you respond to specific issues they raised.

          1. Anon for this One*

            Are you suggesting that places send form letters because some people feel insulted by some types of form letters?

            1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

              No, I’m suggesting that no matter what an employer sends, someone will take offense to it. If they send nothing – that’s rude. If they send a form letter, then were insincere and should have given personalized feedback on specifically why they weren’t selected. If they send personalized feedback, then the reasons they cited were wrong or they were wrong about you or they didn’t have the whole picture.

              There’s really no way to reject someone that they’re going to feel good about. Really the only relevant information is that you didn’t have what they were looking for at the time.

              1. Anon for this One*

                I think we can at least agree that there are bad form letter rejections out there and that form letter rejections should be professionally written and free of condescension, though. And, it is possible to write a sincere and polite form letter rejection.

                The fact that not everyone can always be satisfied doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try to avoid insulting people.

                1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

                  Maybe, but this one doesn’t strike me as all that rude/condescending though. It seems pretty run-of-the-mill.

                  That’s what I’m struggling with – I don’t understand why you’d find it insulting.

                2. Anon for this One*

                  Because, as I mentioned above, insincere flattery and white lies are how you soften bad news to a child, not a professional.

                3. TootsNYC*

                  I hate to say this, but I think you’re reacting more like a child than a professional. Certainly you’re reacting more emotionally than intellectually.

      2. neverjaunty*

        I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Anon for this One isn’t so much venting as complaining about being rejected in a way s/he doesn’t like – which is why all the responses nitpicking word choices and ignoring actually helpful feedback.

          2. BRR*

            It’s coming off to me that way as well. There’s not going to be one form letter that everybody is ok with and I’m not sure other wording would have actually satisfied you. I think everyone should just read rejection letters as “you didn’t get this job” and don’t read into it any further.

            “If you both extensively reviewed and you were greatly impressed, but you chose not to contact me in any meaningful way, then I am seriously questioning your hiring practices” There’s nothing that makes that statement not true though. They could be moving 5 people forward out of 100 applicants and you were number 6. Or if by meaningful way you mean a custom rejection letter which is way too much work for anybody.

            1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

              “There’s nothing that makes that statement not true though. ”

              Yeah, I agree. Like, I got an amazing resume once for someone who spoke Esperanza and 5 other languages, had a PhD in archeology, had done amazing, interesting, impressive things…but they weren’t what we were looking for in that particular job. However, I would have loved to invite her to a dinner party.

    5. Kaybee*

      You don’t know that they *weren’t* impressed with your accomplishments/skills. Some companies are looking for more than a certain skill set.

      An example: one hiring process I was involved with was for an assistant for a manager who was the biggest micromanager most people will ever meet. All the other assistants in that department had their own space, but this manager insisted that her assistant be in her office, so she could watch the assistant at all times. She not only had access to her assistant’s email, but told the assistant how to organize folders, etc. She even had a system in place for the assistant’s folders on the assistant’s personal drive, “in case I ever need anything on your personal drive, I’ll know where to find it.” Should the assistant do any work in a hard copy format, the assistant needed to make a photocopy of it for the manager. And there were incessant verbal check-ins all. day. long. since they were sharing the same space. I could write pages on this manager. And while in a functional workplace someone might have intervened in this behavior, this manager happened to the president’s wife. Who reported directly to her husband. (Yes, this was an incredibly dysfunctional workplace that most people, including me, quietly left as soon as they could find a new job.)

      So when we were hiring, we were looking not just for someone who could do the job, but someone who enjoyed being micromanaged. And who was comfortable having someone in their space at all times. It was a tough hiring process to find someone who could tolerate someone literally breathing down their neck. Anyone who used the word “independent” in their cover letter, for example, was instantly weeded out. Ultimately we did sacrifice on experience for someone who could stand to be micromanaged – and that was better for everyone involved.

      So it’s entirely possible that you could have a perfect set of accomplishments that did impress HR, but for other reasons that they can’t possibly share with you, just aren’t the right fit for the job. That said, I know how disappointing it is to not get a job I felt qualified for – try to hang in there.

      1. Anon for this One*

        If someone impresses me, I do a little more than send a form letter.

        If a resume impresses me, but I don’t think they’d be a good fit for my opening, I e-mail them and explain and then ask if I can pass on their resume to a more relevant hiring manager. Or I ask if I can hang onto it and contact them about future openings that they might be a better fit for.

        1. fposte*

          Then you have more time than me :-).

          Often when I hire it’s from a pool that’s already high-performance and highly skilled; just about everybody in it impresses me. I personalize the emails to those who were interviewed and I pass on resumes if there’s somebody I know who would be interested, but I only give feedback once in a blue moon. The rest get form letters; nice form letters, but form letters.

            1. fposte*

              Everybody does! They’re great, and I’m lucky. (And the one recent time I gave feedback it was to somebody I hired later anyway.)

        2. TL -*

          But what if you’re hiring for Google and you get 500 okay, 250 terrible, and 400 truly excellent candidates?How many emails are you going to write?

        3. Chaordic One*

          When I was in HR I really didn’t have time to do more than a form letter. However, I had more than one form letter. If someone looked like a promising candidate for a similar or other job in the future, they would get a form letter advising them to please, in the future, apply again for specific openings.

          (Even though we kept all applications on file, after a position was filled no one ever looked at the applications again to consider hiring that person for a different position and there was nothing I could do about it. At Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. I’m not aware of anyone ever being hired in response to a general inquiry and who did not apply for a specific opening.)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I worked for a woman for quite a while who had a way of speaking that was like a recording.

      “Good morning, NSNR, and how are you today?” Every day. Day in, day out.
      “Thank you for your efforts and have a good evening.” Every day. Day in, day out.

      Her sentences were the spoken equivalent of a form letter. Like you show here, nothing in her sentences was blatantly rude. But I got to wondering about her sincerity. It sounded to me like she was on autopilot and not really thinking about what she was saying.

      My father pointed something out. He said even if her replies sounded automatic and she sounded disconnected from what she was saying, she STILL had enough of her wits about her to realize that she needed to say something. So maybe she could not muster the most sincere sentences in our language, she still knew that her inputs were necessary.

      By assuming the worst about others we only shoot ourselves in the foot. We lose something when we cut off a company or another person. We only defeat ours own selves.

  29. Lady Julian*

    What is your take on putting up election paraphernalia at work?

    I teach at a tiny faith-based college in the Midwest. I am politically moderate but keep my views largely to myself (Rumor gets around though; I’m known as the campus feminist, even though I haven’t spoken openly of this for several years.) One of my colleagues has posted a Trump/Pence sticker on her office door. Yet if I tried to put a Clinton/Kaine sticker on *my* door, I am certain that I would get in trouble, if not from my admin at least from my conservative students.

    What do you think? In a religious environment like mine, should campaign stickers be verboten? I feel as though if both sides cannot be displayed, neither side should be.

    It’s worth noting that because I dislike conflict and don’t know the person with the Trump/Pence sticker very well, I probably won’t ask her to take it down. I’m more interested in the idea of the thing, the place of election stuff at work, when work is a religious environment.

    1. Anon 2*

      Personally, I would ask someone in HR.

      Where I work our HR person announced in the spring, that political conversations/emails/paraphenalia should not occur or be displayed in the workplace, because they had a tendency to make people uncomfortable. This policy was instituted after one person in the office started forwarding pro-Trump emails.

      I don’t think it matters that the institution that you work for is religious. Unless working for a political organization, politics of this nature don’t belong in the workplace.

    2. Hope*

      Honestly I wish all election stuff would stay out of the office–unless you’re working for a specific political campaign, in which case that’s kind of the point of being there. I don’t want to know my coworker’s views and they don’t need to know mine unless we’re close enough that we already talk about it. Especially because in some areas, people supporting the minority opinion just aren’t going to feel safe displaying it.

      2. Lady Julian*

        “Especially because in some areas, people supporting the minority opinion just aren’t going to feel safe displaying it.”

        Yes!! This is me. I am in the minority politically, I don’t feel safe displaying it, and so it feels unfair that the “other side” gets to put their stuff up. It would be better not to have any campaign stuff at all.

      4. Elizabeth West*

        This.
        1. It’s just too hot a topic.
        2. I don’t want to know who supports who, or I would probably run screaming out the door.

        I don’t think I could work for a faith-based org, either. At least not the ones around here–they wouldn’t hire me anyway because I don’t fit any of their behavioral requirements. :)

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Frankly, I think this sort of thing should be more verboten in religious working environments than normal ones, because it implies that certain candidates are more religiously correct than others, and therefore your support or not reflects on your personal religious purity, and since it’s a religious environment, it could have implications for your career. Ugh.

      1. Lady Julian*

        Yes! This is my feeling exactly. Putting the Trump/Pence sign up implies that he’s more religiously correct than other candidates, but I (who, despite being an outlier where I work, am largely orthodox & traditional) actually see him as the *least* religiously correct candidate.

        But I can’t put my own sign up, because you’re right – it *would* impact my career.

        This is driving me nuts.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          I would be SO TEMPTED to add a little note under that sticker quoting “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…”

      2. Natalie*

        Agreed. I also think it should be more verboten in tax-exempt environments, which I assume this is, because part of the deal is staying out of politics. I’m not speaking to whether or not this legally crosses the line, but to me it definitely *morally* crosses the line.

    4. Sadsack*

      Does your school have rules about this? I’m not someone who puts signs anywhere regarding candidates, no matter how strongly I feel. I’d probably ignore her sign. If anything, I guess she just told you something about herself, for whatever that is worth.

      1. Lady Julian*

        Very much so. I can’t say that I particuarly connected with this person beforehand, and I will *definitely* not connect with her now.

        If I find out that someone is voting for Trump, I will have a dimmer view of that person; and so in order to preserve my relationships with people, I’m making it a point not to ask at all. I have close friends & family who will probably vote for him, and I think it’s better that I not know for sure which way they vote.

    5. Ella*

      You might talk to HR to ask about their policies about election signs at work, and mention that you’ve seen some around campus, and see what they say. You can say that you were considering putting up your own candidates sign, but wanted to check first.

      I personally wouldn’t put up a sign like that at work. I think it’s in poor taste, even if it’s allowed, and I would worry that it would create unnecessary friction in work relationships.

      1. Lady Julian*

        We don’t have HR, I think, as we’re a college. I don’t get along well with my boss, so I don’t want to talk to her, either. I’m not sure that I have any recourse at all, actually.

        1. Pwyll*

          Err, most colleges I’ve ever heard of had someone handling the HR role. I suppose it might be handled by another department if you’re very small, but I’d be very surprised if you didn’t have some kind of HR team (even if they’re called something else) given the hoops colleges have to jump through with the government.

        2. ThatGirl*

          Colleges do generally have HR departments. I suppose yours might be an exception, but colleges in general aren’t an exception to that.

            1. blackcat*

              Huh. I went to a small college (<1,500 undergrads), and there were definitely at least two HR people, because two different HR people took one of the psychology classes I was in as an undergrad. I guess maybe we had a high faculty/staff to student ratio?

              I also worked at a private school (~600 students) and we had an HR person. I LOVED her. When a new administrator came into the school, though, she lost her job because "it was decided" that the HR role required a college degree. I was so sad. Her replacement had a college degree, along with a high level of incompetence.

              Maybe you can ask if your school outsources HR. I know that can be common at small places.

      2. Charlotte Collins*

        I wouldn’t, either, but it would depend upon the workplace. (Somebody mentioned election headquarters, but other political/nonprofit groups probably also allow signs – if your employer actively endorses a candidate, then I could see it.)

        On the other hand, I proudly display my “I voted today” stickers. And I love my “Smart Women Stick to the Issues” magnet. (http://smartwomencompany.com/)

        1. Creag an Tuire*

          FWIW, non-profit groups that engage in politics are in my experience pretty strict about banning any campaign paraphernalia from public areas, unless it’s produced by the organization itself. Can’t muddle the message.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            That completely makes sense to me. Especially if there’s a specific issue that’s the focus.

    6. Garland Not Andrews*

      I work for the federal government. That could get me fired! I don’t think it is appropriate anyway. We have to work together the rest of the year and knowing that co-worker supports him/her for whatever hotly contested or not position could impact daily interactions.

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      Ehhh…while I don’t care for it either and wish it would stay out of the workplace, I feel like you signed up for this when you took a position at a conservative, faith-based college. Students that attend schools like that and the people that are drawn to work in them, tend to lean that way politically. I’d just avoid the topic if you can and wait for the election to pass. Even if HR would hear you out, I feel like it would be hard to say that you’re bothered/offended by a political candidate that, in theory at least, espouses/represents the religious views that I’m sure are prevalent at your university. Best of luck!

    8. JKB204*

      My neighbor put a Trump sign on his lawn, and while I don’t care and it’s his lawn, I also don’t understand it. Putting a sign of any political bent is just ensuring that half of your neighbors are side-eyeing you.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        I don’t know. Someone in my neighborhood put up a specific sign and I sent her a note telling her that her daughter has my girl-scout cookie business until I have a daughter of my own :)

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I don’t put them on my car for the same reason. Plus, once that particular election is over, it looks weird to have a sticker, especially if your candidate loses.

        1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

          This is really funny, because not 10 minutes ago I saw in a parking lot with a Gore/Lieberman bumper sticker and I was texting my husband about it. It was the only sticker on the car.

      3. SaraV*

        Well shoot…in some states, putting a sign/flag/paraphenalia on your property for the “other” college team in the state will have you receiving side-eye. ;)

    9. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Strictly illegal in my line of work, actually. Putting up a political sticker in the type of federal office I work would have me brought in front of the Inspector General. And I really like it.

    10. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      I have a coworker who put up a bumper sticker on his cubical wall that says ‘Even Bill didn’t want Hillary’ and it is so gross and obnoxious. It’s completely changed my opinion of him and I avoid dealing with him whenever possible.

      Politics should stay out of the office, unless you’re working directly in that field. Doubly so in your case.

    11. CMT*

      I’m glad that I work for a government organization, so it’s not even an option. It’s not something I want to discuss in the workplace at all.

    12. Hotel GM Guy*

      Eh, I’d shy away from election stickers at work. Besides, unless you’re in Iowa, Ohio or Wisconsin, it’s not going to matter who you support or if you try and sway your coworkers, because Minnesota and Illinois are going Clinton, and all the other Midwest states are going Trump (unless something CRAZY happens!)

  30. Lefty*

    Is it normal to need a moment to switch gears at work? Moreover, is it normal to not be given that moment?

    I’ll be involved in a very research-heavy assignment (international and federal regulations) which was delegated by my boss when he’ll walk in and ask a VERY involved question about something totally unrelated. This wouldn’t be so bad if the new situation was something we’d previously discussed or if I got a brief or even if he’d just say, “hey- this other thing…”. However, he comes in and starts asking questions about this other thing, then gets adversarial when I cannot give the right answer immediately. These interactions typically require me to ask 4-5 questions to get enough information about this NEW and clearly pressing issue to attempt to answer it.

    After seeing this as a pattern, I asked him (at a neutral time) to please give me a few seconds to go from deep research into a new question. I don’t need much time, just enough to stop, maybe place a marker, and refocus on him. I gave him some suggestions of “if you could knock and let me know you’re coming in” or “if you could come in, let me pause what I’m doing, and then give me the brief” or “maybe we can start with the brief, then get the question so you don’t feel like I’m making you backtrack”. He agreed that these things were doable, but did not do them. Now, he’s doing this and is often bringing someone else in with him. In several cases, these other employees are now picking up his pattern of interrupting and not allowing transition time! I’ve gone from asking for him to find a way to help me to trying to blatantly asking for the time myself (in-the-moment). Boss and/or other employee steps into my research area and starts rattling questions- “I need just a moment to wrap this up so I can focus on that.” “Please give me just a second to mark this paragraph and I’ll be with you!” “Oh, wait. I haven’t been briefed and I’m in the middle of the Teapots Treaty question we had earlier. Let me switch gears to the Teapots Trim Ordinance of 1975 so we can get this.” Still- it’s frustrating!

    I’m tempted to do the “one minute” finger, but it feels abrupt. Talk me into that? Abruptness against rudeness could be ok, maybe? Any other ideas?

    1. Sadsack*

      I’d keep saying what you have been saying. Or you could just stop them and say, “Before you go any further, what is this about?”

      For people other than your boss, can you stop them and ask if you can follow up with them later at a certain time/ in 15 minutes/ whenever? I don’t think that would be at all rude if you and it shouldn’t require any explanation.

    2. fposte*

      I think it’s common, if not universal, to need a minute to switch gears, but I also don’t think it’s rude for your boss or colleagues to ask you questions related to your work during work hours, even if the timing isn’t what you’d like. So no, I don’t think you can be rude to fend it off, and I don’t think it’s likely to change.

      I think you’re doing what you need to be doing–“Just give me a sec and I’ll be on it.” That’s what most of us do :-).

    3. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would combine the one minute finger with a cheerful “hang on, hang on, hang on!” while marking my place or whatever, and then turn and say “Sorry, I wanted to be sure I was giving you my full attention.”

      Also, do you have a door you can close while your working? Even if boss just barges in without knocking, you’ll buy a few extra seconds.

      1. Dawn*

        “Sorry, I wanted to be sure I was giving you my full attention.”

        SUUUUUPER awesome phrase right there! You know that YOU need a minute, but they might not remember that so if you take a sec to switch gears they might get huffy. BUT- you say that phrase, and any huffiness magically melts away because you weren’t being rude, you were making sure that you could completely pay attention to what they’re saying, which is the Super Professional And Polite Thing To Do. Then if anyone brings up being annoyed that you have to switch gears, just keep trotting out that phrase- “Yes, I want to make sure I give you my full attention!” It should soften a lot of things up.

        1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          I use a different version at work with, “Give me just a sec to wrap this up.”

          I’ve also used, “Sorry, I’ve been over in X land and it’s been a bit since we’ve talked about that. Give me a minute to switch gears? That was YZ, right? And it had ZBC?”

          Or, “Too many fires to keep track! Which one is this again?” *listen* “Is that the one with X?” *listen some more*

          I like the phrasing on: “I want to be able to give you my full attention, so give me just a sec to wrap this up.” I may start using that.

          Haven’t been able to stop my boss from interrupting, though. :\ Haven’t figured out the right level of bluntness.

        2. Lefty*

          Totally agree and I’m planning to use that phrase today. I really love your idea of repeating it as necessary to drive the point home if needed. Thanks for the feedback from all! :)

      2. TootsNYC*

        I would do this. Just *take* that moment to put a “bookmark” in my work, all the while saying, “Oh, yes, I want to pay attention, just a minute!”

        Be cheerful and blasé about it.

      3. OhBehave*

        I ran a fairly large retail operation for a non-profit. As such, I would do an inventory periodically. Invariably, as I was counting I would be interrupted. Hello! I’m counting here. I always put up a hand so I would have time to mark my stopping point. It took some time but I trained a lot of people to stop interrupting me when they saw I was involved in inventory. I felt comfortable enough with my peers and managers to do this as we knew each other for years and no one got angry. It was more of a DUH moment for them!

    4. Blue Anne*

      I think both of those things are very normal.

      I’ve had it happen twice this morning. I’ve got my head in the middle of someone’s tax return and a partner will come in to ask me about the classification of a couple expenses for a charity I worked on two weeks ago.

      I tend to say “Just give me one second” if I need to save work, finish entering something, etc., and “Sorry, I still have my head in Persephone’s home business, can you give me that question again?” if I’m having trouble switching gears. Everyone gets it.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I don’t think you’re being rude or in the wrong to ask for a minute, and it sounds as though you’re handling perfectly professionally. This is honestly a fairly normal social convention. THEY are being rude to not take the hint to make a pause there as they are the ones interrupting, and ever weirder to get adversarial about it if you cannot answer IMMEDIATELY.

      Typically I will knock, or ask person if they have a minute… and then pause/wait. Sometimes they wave you in and/or finish and then look up. Sometimes they will wave you away or indicate a “five” hand sign to come back in 5 minutes.

      But with some people, the new no-second attention span rules I suppose.

    6. Bob Barker*

      My fave: when Boss interrupts your deep work to ask a question related to his own deep work — but it’s a question so involved and so shorn of context that you have no idea what he is talking about. Happens to me daily.

      My boss in particular seems to think I can read his mind, which is flattering, right up till the moment I prove that I can’t, and he’s terribly impatient with my not knowing what he means when he says, “We have to write back to those people.” Yes, yes boss, we do, have to write back to about 100 people, your inbox is overflowing and you’re amazingly good at ignoring my nagging about it. WHICH PEOPLE YOU NINNY.

      I like to remind myself that he does a lot of Freudian displacement, where his irritation at me is an mis-expressed irritation with himself. But that’s not very soothing when he pretends it’s my fault I can’t follow a conversation that occurred entirely in his head.

  31. Laid Off 5 Months Before Maternity Leave*

    The baby comes in March. I’m being laid off in December. My hours will be halved in November.

    Other than temp/staffing agencies, is there anywhere to look for 5 months of work? I plan to take a year off with the baby, so finding a normal longterm job probably isn’t an option.

    1. Technical Editor & Resume Reviewer*

      Seasonal jobs are coming out right now. You could start part-time now and quit in February when it gets too hard to work? I’m due in January and just going to the grocery store tires me out, so I realize that may not be an option. I’d also suggest contacting a temp agency for contract work, which generally lasts 6 months. Good luck!

  32. anonymouse*

    How long do you give recruiters to get back to you before you give up on the interview?

    I had a recruiter reach out to me on a Friday afternoon asking about availability. I responded that same afternoon. I didn’t hear back so I followed up the previous Friday. It’s now two weeks from the date of when the recruiter (who is actually the Associate Director of HR) first sent me an email.

    I’ve been wanting to get into this company for a long time and I’m annoyed that I’ve apparently been ghosted. Especially since a coworker made an offhand mention of having a phone interview for the same position and said coworker is 5 years young than I am with significantly less experience. The job listing ask for 5-7 year of experience, which I have, and coworker has 3.

    Would you follow up again or just write it off?

    1. MacGirl*

      I give it a week. But there was one instance not too long ago where it took a full month before the company contacted the recruiter about setting up an interview. Things can happen on the employer’s side that disrupt timelines.
      But in general, I would go with a week. And if you are frustrated working with this agency, then take action. You are under no obligation to return calls or even work with the recruiter(s). I had a similar experience earlier this year which led me to write an email to the recruiting agency’s main branch describing my experience. I never heard back about the email but I did find a better recruiter who was friendlier and far more communicative.

      1. anonymouse*

        Oh, when I say recruiter, I mean the recruiter/HR rep from the company I applied to, not a recruiting agency. I applied to X Company, and the woman who contacted me has a Associate Director of Recruiting for X Company.

        At most I’ll leave a Glassdoor review about the bad experience.

        1. the spam queen*

          Two weeks may seem like a long time to you, but we usually allocate six weeks minimum to the hiring process. You seem like you’re pretty invested in this particular position, perhaps to the point of having some unrealistic expectations? If the recruiter called back today, would you feel justified in calling them out for the amount of time it took for them to respond to you? If the answer is yes, take a step back and try to gain some perspective. Good luck in your search!

          1. anonymouse*

            I wouldn’t call anyone out while I’m in the middle of a job search, but I still find it pretty rude if they write an email saying, “What’s your availability next week?” and then don’t respond for two weeks.

            I understand long hiring processes, but it’s been pretty common in my job search to have companies ask for my availability on X day or Y week and then follow up after the date has passed and ask me to come in on Z day instead. It’s disrespectful. Why ask about my availability on certain times if they’re not going to acknowledge my responses?

    2. Ama*

      It could depend on your area but if you are some place where it wouldn’t be uncommon to have Jewish employees the holidays this week and next may be throwing their timing off. I work in an area with a significant Jewish population and emails have definitely been slower this week because so many people have been in and out of the office. Throw in a lot of offices being closed Monday for Columbus Day and these two weeks are basically a wash.

  33. CrazyEngineerGirl*

    Is anyone else driven slightly nuts working at a family company, where they aren’t family?

    My company is small and 61% (I did the math) of the employees are related. I am one of the few employees that are not family and am often frustrated by the double standards! I think the worst part is, the owners and higher ups (all family) seem to truly believe everyone is treated the same. But I don’t get to come and go as I please, only get a lecture for behavior that would get you fired elsewhere, have my significant other/children/parents/siblings come visit me at work and hang out in my office for hours on end…

    It’s not so much the sometimes ridiculous things family employees do/get away with that annoy me, it’s the often spoken and unarguable statements that family members aren’t treated any differently. It makes me want to scream! Just admit the double standards and lets all move on!

    1. Berry*

      Yes! I work at a family company and it’s frustrating when there are kids running all over the office. My office is a bit lax about working hours so I’m okay on that, but the amount of personal business I know about their family because they’re always talking about it is a little uncomfortable.

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        I can relate to that. I think I might know more about their family than my own! It’s like no one has a filter and either can’t remember or doesn’t care that some of us aren’t a part of their family!

    2. Blue Anne*

      Yep. The extremely toxic employer I walked out on a month or two ago was a family business.

      They actually concealed that it was a family business while I was interviewing. I would’ve steered well clear if I’d picked up on that.

    3. Liane*

      Yeah. Plus the non-relations tend to be first-fired no matter what. My husband’s shortest permanent job was at a small ( <10 people) family-owned firm. They let him go after several months because either they decided to hire on Yet Another Family Member, or realized they had 1 more employee than they could afford just after they hired YAFM. (It's been a couple decades so memory is cloudy.)

  34. The Imaginary Manager*

    I’m still steamed about yesterday’s follow-up from the OP whose coworker treats her like crap and refuses to do work she assigns. I wish I was the OP’s second-level manager stumbling across this mess here on AAM so I could address it with OP’s manager.

    “I have a solution to both OP’s backlog and the way Clerk treats her. Effective immediately, you and OP are trading jobs. I expect you to have switched job duties and workspaces by the end of the day.”

    Ha! So not a realistic solution…but it’s fun to imagine.

    1. LCL*

      I am steamed, and educated. I have been a strong advocate for mediation in the past, but my company doesn’t do mediation and I could never convince them. I had assumed that in mediation all of the anger and aggressiveness would be on display and management would see just how awful pot-stirring co worker is. It never occurred to me that management would see the disruption and not care and allow it to continue. Another ideal bites the dust.

    2. catsAreCool*

      I wonder if the boss was gaslighted during the most recent meeting just as LW was and if the boss is now thinking “Wait a minute, Clerk did .. because he didn’t like her tone?” Might be hard for the boss to go back and deal with it until Clerk does something else (which he did with “the men are talking”).

  35. TheLazyB*

    Been wanting to rant about this for two days!

    Walked into the work kitchen this week to find some staff members putting squirty cream in hot drinks… one woman then sprayed the squirty cream into the mouth of her (male) colleague for about 30-40 seconds. Which was a long time.

    You know when you just want to say holy COW that’s inappropriate work behaviour?!

    I have no idea if they’re involved but it was certainly flirty behaviour, not work appropriate.

    So what do you wish you hadn’t seen in work this week?

      1. TheLazyB*

        Thank you so much. That was exactly my reaction but I was concerned in case I was being prudish….

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That you called it “squirty cream” totally ups the gross factor for me and I find this disgustingly hilarious.

    3. LCL*

      My previous manager, who wanted to yell at me about a report not being done to his timetable. My suggestion that someone in his 2X larger group could do it wasn’t appreciated either. This is all related to reorg hell, we kept our body of work but report to someone else.

    5. Aggravated Admin*

      Ewww, that’s pretty bad. I wouldn’t want to see anyone I know doing that, let alone co-workers!

      I wish I hadn’t seen the big bag of Halloween candy in the kitchen cupboard at work. There goes my diet!

      1. TheLazyB*

        I know. There were grunts of (I presume) pleasure. It was disturbing.

        Too early for Halloween yet!!!!

        1. Hotel GM Guy*

          It’s never too early for Halloween. I changed my ringtone to “Spooky Scary Skeletons” on October 1.

    6. Lefty*

      Boss had someone in the office shape up his eyebrows… not only was the request too much, his very loud complaining about the tweezing process was even worse.

    7. Lemon Zinger*

      WTF?! That’s both disgusting and inappropriate. I think I would have responded with an open-mouthed “WOW.”

      1. TheLazyB*

        Oh my god, I only just thought about the fact that someone else might unknowingly use it later. Eww :(

        1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          Hahaha. I thought it was spray from far away which would have made me raise both eyebrows, refrain from my first juvenile comment, and walk out. How utterly (or udderly?) odd….

    8. Lily Evans*

      It was years ago, but back when I worked retail as a teenager, I was in a stock room with two other teenage employees, a boy and a girl. The girl decided to flirt with the boy by pulling her underwear above the waist of her pants and making him feel how soft it was. It was one of those did that really just happen? moments and I just stood by awkwardly while he felt her underwear. It was extra awkward because he didn’t seem interested at all, but she was very adamant about it.

    9. lfi*

      o god i have been putting whipped cream in my coffee ALL week at work but i have definitely not aimed it at people.. do we work together?

    10. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      The guy who licks his fingers and then puts them back in the candy dish for another helping.

  36. Daisy Dukes*

    An interesting story to show that sometimes we can’t be fully in control of timing:

    I posted last week saying I was getting ready to give notice at my current job when future job hadn’t sent me the offer letter, yet scheduled travel already. Well…that same day, my boss offered me a raise and increased responsibility. At that point, I had to give notice in order to not accept in bad faith.

    So nice to work out my 2 weeks and know that I’m leaving!

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        I never told her that I was. She was pretty angry and “disappointed” but I figured that she would be since she’s told people to just leave same day when they give 2 weeks.

  37. Librarian Ish*

    Ugh I screwed up at work. I’ve been sick this week with a minor cold, but still made it in – until yesterday, when my coworker freaked out about me coming in sick. So I worked stuff out with IT so I could remote access my desktop, and got on the bus to get home.

    Of course, my bus took forever, and then the remote log in instructions didn’t work, so I had to download all of the programs I needed onto my personal laptop, and I ended up missing the first section of an online meeting I was supposed to attend for a brand new working group I was nominated to.

    Anyway I’m beyond mortified. I sent an email to the meeting host explaining what happened and how out of the ordinary it was but still, I feel a bit sick, and not just with my cold!

    1. Daisy Dukes*

      Ugh, that sucks that on top of being sick, you have to deal with these IT issues! I don’t know your coworkers but hopefully they are human and understand people get sick and IT problems happen.

      Feel better!!

    2. Leatherwings*

      Don’t be too hard on yourself, this kind of stuff just happens. Any reasonable host would understand.

    3. Jadelyn*

      It’s an IT hiccup. Tech trouble happens, especially when you’re talking about remote access to a meeting. Trust me, it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone is thinking this reflects anything about you as a person or as a coworker.

  38. Iced Out*

    So Gave My Two weeks and I am so much happier. I went out with ~30 work friends my last day and old supervisor tagged along and made it awkward for her, but I kept my composure, I didn’t fuss, and just thanked them all for getting me ready for my new role and responsibility. I miss my old work friends, but I now make 50% More, Better Benefits, A Better Job Title, A Better Boss and an appropriate amount of responsibilities. I decided against showing supervisor what my new offer was as there was no need to cause hate and discontent.

    1. Daisy Dukes*

      Congratulations!! I’m mid-2 weeks and it’s so nice to see the light at the end of the tunnel :)

  39. Ern*

    Okay, I’d love some advice for a situation I just landed in. I’m leaving my current job in a week and have been job-hunting (not my first choice for order of events but it was ultimately the right decision for me and the company). My friend connected me with a guy at a company in the city i’m looking to relocate to because he posted about a job opening with his company). This was yesterday. Today, I got a reply from the head of operations asking to talk today (a crazy fast timeline). My impression from the contact is that they’re looking to hire asap. Two things: the contact sent me the job description and the salary listed is a little low for what i’d expect. Particularly because my impression of the role is that it wouldn’t be a strict 9-5 job. I’m not going to bring up salary in this initial conversation unless it’s raised to me first. But one thing I’m wondering about is, can I ask if the position will change in December based on the overtime laws?

    Also, should I be raising any eyebrows that they’re calling me so quickly? Not that I’m not qualified but it does make me wonder why they need to fill the role asap and if there is anything negative related to the org itself.

    Any advice would be awesome!!

    1. Pwyll*

      The speed doesn’t really raise my eyebrows, perhaps someone quit without notice or got ill or who knows what. And I think asking about the overtime situation is okay.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes — I often move people through a hiring process as quickly as I can because of schedules of people involved in the process, or all sorts of other reasons (including that I just take pleasure in being efficient). I wouldn’t read into that as long as the process itself seems rigorous.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I think they probably do need to fill the role ASAP, and you’re obviously someone who interests them. You could certainly ask in the interview about how the overtime law will affect the job.

      This is a good thing! Definitely talk to them and let us know what happens!

      1. Ern*

        Thanks so much for the validating thoughts! I wound up having coffee with my contact at the org. today bc he just happened to be in town. The interview with the head of operations has been a little strange because, we scheduled a time to talk on Friday but he was traveling and ended up cancelling 40 minutes after we were supposed to speak because of issues related to his travel. He called me this morning when I was unavailable and left a message, asking me to call back when I could talk but when I called back, he missed the call. The whole phone tag thing is a little weird to me, especially on a weekend. I’m not entirely ruling it out because my contact at the company seems to really like what he’s doing and the position actually does sound like something I’d enjoy. I’ll just have to wait and see if the disorganization continues. That being said, later on yesterday, I got another interview at a company I applied to cold that I really want to work for! So all around, it was a good day :)

    3. Ama*

      Seconding that the timeline isn’t necessarily an issue. When I got my current job, I found the position and sent my resume in on Thursday, got a call Friday morning from the hiring manager and was asked to come in the next Monday. I found out in the interview that they had been trying to hire for about three weeks and were pressed for time because my role was needed for a major event the following month (even though they made clear I wouldn’t be expected to have full responsibilities, they needed the extra pair of hands). So my resume arrived right before they were going to have to decide whether they would have to draft a staff member from another department to help (it was an out of state event so travel arrangements needed to be made).

      It was the fact that, though they strongly preferred to have my role filled in time for the event, they clearly weren’t going to fill it if they didn’t find the right candidate that eased my concerns at how fast they were moving. This has turned out to be one of the best, least dysfunctional places I’ve ever worked, too.

    4. TheCupcakeCounter*

      I think I would be grateful for the speed. That is how it went in my job – recruiter called me on Thursday about the job and asking if she could send them my materials, they called Friday to set up a time, phone interview MOnday, in-person interview Wednesday, a followup call Monday and the offer Tuesday. It took 4 months for an internal promotion (within my same group who knew me very well as I had been there 3 years at that point) at Old Job. new Job has a much better track record of long-term hires. Part of why they go fast is you interview with the key people (as opposed to 8 different random people) and they want you to be able to work with the person leaving for knowledge transfer.

    5. MsMaryMary*

      The speed could be happenstance too. You happened to submit your application a day before the head of operations happened to review applications. For my current job, I ended up with a phone interviewmwithin hours of submitting my resume, because I subbed on a Friday and the hiring manager planned on reviewing candidates on Friday afternoon. My resume was on the top of the stack.

      The rest of the interview process was considerably longer, but that’s another story.

    6. OhBehave*

      With regards to the salary – If you are relocating, is it possible the cost of living is less than what you are paying now?
      I wouldn’t worry about how quickly they contacted you. There could be any number of reasonable reasons for this. Ask your friend what they know about the company, if anything.

      1. Ern*

        The job’s in New York City and I’m coming from DC–it’ll be an increased cost of living, not by heaps but it’ll depend on a potential housing situation I’d end up with.

  40. A little awkward*

    I have a small etiquette question.

    A couple months ago, I asked someone in another department at work about an ongoing professional development opportunity that I’m interested in. I don’t know the person well, but asked them because they’d sent out an e-mail about it. At the time, they just shared some basic info without many instructions on how to proceed, and I didn’t try very hard to follow up right away because it was a busy time in my department and I wanted to wait and check with my boss before seriously pursuing anything. Now I have, and my boss is supportive. I e-mailed the person I originally spoke to to reiterate my interest, but haven’t heard back.

    Would it be rude or pushy if I reached out to someone else I know in that department? I know this second person a little better, and I think they might actually be the person I’d have to talk to, anyway. But I feel kind of weird about it since I haven’t heard back from the first person (it’s been a couple weeks since I emailed them).

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s fine. You can include a side order of “Are you the right person to ask?” if you want to hint at the possibility you’ve asked the wrong person before.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’d try following up with that initial person first, before jumping to looping in someone else.

  41. Daisy Dukes*

    To the the reader that goes by the name Dawn, just want to send you a huge thank you! A few months ago, you gave me some great advice when I was having the “what if it’s worse” worries while job hunting. Thank you for reminding me to think “what if it’s BETTER!”

    Thank you again :)

      1. Daisy Dukes*

        Yay! So glad you saw it :)

        I’m starting a new job in a week and have you to thank for reminding me that I can be happier!

        1. Dawn*

          YERRRRR NEW JERBBB!!!!!

          So A, keep us posted on new job and definitely do an update once you settle in! Also B, TIME TO PARTAYYYY!!!!

          1. Daisy Dukes*

            WHAT WHAAATTT haha thank you :) I wish I could send you a thank you card but I won’t be creepy and ask for your personal info!

  42. Fact & Fiction*

    Open thread and I’m going to do more than lurk!

    Just wanted to share that I’m super excited to be in the interview process for an editor position in a university grad school’s communications department. The grad school is related to the industry that I formerly worked in for a decade and have my master’s degree in.

    The person who did my telephone interview said she loved my cover letter–speaking as someone who sees thousands of them (polished to a sparkle thanks to all the tips from Alison). She also thought Alison’s magic question was a great question so thanks again! :)

    They asked for some refs from professionals in the grad school’s industry (trying to stay vague for anonymity) and I got two great ones who are happy to provide the refs, one of whom is now pretty high up in another of this university’s campuses, which I didn’t know when I decided to ask her for a ref.

    In-person interview next week. They liked my writing samples enough to continue the process, though there will be an on-site writing test, too. This job would be amazing for my career, even though I would be sad to leave my current position. It’s the perfect intersection of some of the things I’m most passionate about.

    Researching like crazy and crossing my fingers. Good vibes for fellow job seekers!

    1. Cass*

      It sounds like the process I just went through for a comm position at a university. I got my offer this week, hope you do too!

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        Congrats! I hope you love the job! This university is also where I got my bachelor’s so I’m hoping!

    2. Saturnalia*

      Dang, somehow in my obsessive reading of AAM archives I have missed the magic question? What is it?! I must know! Haha

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        To paraphrase: “What separates someone who would do well at this job from someone who would be truly great?”

  43. Good_Intentions*

    Follow-up with student fellows

    Thank you to the many commenters who shared their advice and experiences of working with college students with me. Your words of wisdom and common sense measures provided me with some wonderful ideas to implement during my meeting with the students.

    I’ve had two of the three meetings, and both have gone fairly well. Some of the students really are afraid to take initiative and do anything without being directly ordered by me. It troubles me that three third-year political science majors cannot email their professors about election-related meetings without needing a template and pep talk about it.

    Beyond their need for hand holding and effusive praise for doing the bare minimal, the students acquit themselves well. It’s going to be a busy month until the election, so I am making a concerted effort to go along to get along.
    The other stressor is that a representative from the Washington, D.C. office will be visiting sometime during mid-October. I now must plan activities for all of the possible days when he might visit, so I’m bugging my students, the schools’ political science and student affairs departments, checking with similar organizations and established community partners to fill the calendar with debate watches, policy panels, issue discussions, etc. for two weeks out from Election Day.

    Again, I genuinely appreciate all the kind and helpful words of sage advice. Thanks AAM commenters!

  44. Cass*

    This morning, I officially accepted my first full-time job offer! (I’ve been doing part-time jobs for 6 years in my field trying to break in.)

    This website was a HUGE help, I shudder to think of where I’d be without the advice. In fact, the hiring manager told me when he extended the offer that once he read my cover letter and resume, he KNEW I was going to be the hire and that I even exceeded his expectations in the interview process. It’s such a boost for my self-confidence, which admittedly has been very long in my long tenure job searching. I even negotiated for a 10% pay bump! (Doing my part to close the wage gap!!) Sorry for the gushing – I’m so pumped! Thanks again to Alison and all the commenters.

    5. the gold digger*

      That’s so great! Alison and the commentariat do such great work. I have referred many people here for resume and cover letter advice. I am so happy you have a happy ending!

  45. AnAppleADay*

    How to get out of the habit of working through breaks, eating lunch at desk while working and only work eight hours a day? Having a new Administrator has led to many changes which have doubled my work load, at least. New Admin is only here in the office twice a week. New Admin emails 24/7 but lectures me on my “going overboard” work ethic.

    I accept I have no choice but to walk away after eight hours working otherwise I’ll be in trouble.

    But, how do I change the habit of not taking regular breaks and leaving my desk for lunch. 13 of the last 16 years with this same employer.

    1. burnout*

      Set calendar reminders that will alert you that it is break time, or lunch time. When they go off, GET UP and walk away. Don’t come back until it’s time to come back.

      Studies have shown that taking a complete break is actually great for productivity, and great for your mental state too. You come back refreshed and able to think better. I know this because I, too, went from a work straight thru day to having to take breaks and an official lunch. I like it this way much better.

      If needed, bring a book to read. Get out of the office and take a quick walk. Do a crossword puzzle. Whatever it is that you enjoy, just take a complete break.

      It is an adjustment, but it sounds like you have to do it. Oh, and also, you will have to come to terms with the fact that there will be work left undone when your 8 hours is up. Sounds like your New Admin either knows that and is willing to let it happen, or is completely unrealistic about your workload and the time it takes to get things done. If THAT is the case, New Admin will realize it and that should start a dialog about how to do things better.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        THIS THIS THIS

        I put my stair climb breaks on hold over the last six months or so, partially due to tendinitis in my stupid ankle, but also because of the new regime. I didn’t want to be away from my desk much until I saw the lay of the land. I recently started them again and it occurred to me the other day that perhaps I wouldn’t have been such a pain in the heinie to work with if I had been taking them. >_<

        Also skinnier, but whatever.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      burnout is right– you need to schedule breaks in your calendar, and take those VERY seriously. Do not do anything work-related during those times! Go for a walk around the office, go chat with a coworker, have a snack, etc.

      I struggle with this too, since I eat lunch at my desk. But now I’ve reserved that time for perusing AAM or some of my other favorite websites. If an email comes in, it can wait until I’m done with my lunch hour.

    3. Chaordic One*

      In the past, I brought in an alarm clock from home and had it set to go off at 10:00 am, 12:00 pm and 3:00 pm. I set the alarm volume on low. Sometimes, I’d be in the middle of a phone call, but most of the time it worked.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      My friend sets up her phone alarm. She has to take a med and she has to stand up at set intervals. Her phone reminds her to do these things.

      As others have said, plan your break time. Know what it is you will be doing. I know when I bring salads to work it takes a while for me to finish them, so maybe if you brought food that was less handy to eat on the fly that would help also.

  46. Aggravated Manager*

    Ok this FSLA is coming to roost in my department. My professionals will be re-classified as support staff. I’m not happy, but I don’t think there is any recourse.

    2. Jules*

      Non-exempt is how someone is being paid for their work. It doesn’t tie into whether they are professionals or not. One could argue that an entry level new grad engineer would not qualify exemption based on his job description of ‘supports’ , ‘ learns’, ‘assists’ senior engineers. It’s the same with entry level accountant. We have struggled with some managers over this issue. Non-exempt status is not a demotion. Unless your org ties a lot of perks with exemption status.

      1. Aggravated Manager*

        The decision was made to make all part-time professional staff (who make under $47,465 simply on the basis of being part-time) now support staff, regardless of their level of education. Up until now, whether you were professional or support staff was largely based on the level of education required for your job.

  47. Hermione*

    Today’s my birthday! It’s my first birthday since taking my new job (six months ago)… and nobody knows! There hasn’t been a natural way to bring it up (neither today nor all this week) and I was feeling too lazy to bring in cupcakes or something.

    But I feel like it’s going to be awkward this afternoon when my co-worker is like, ‘so what are your plans this weekend?’, or even better, on Tuesday when I come back from the long weekend. Not a big deal (at all) but I’m awkward in general and so have been thinking of this all day lol

    1. Calcifer*

      Happy birthday! Unless they regularly plan birthday celebrations it shouldn’t be awkward. I didn’t tell my co-workers it was my birthday and when came up in the course of conversation they quickly wished me a happy birthday. We didn’t linger on it and it wasn’t awkward at all.

    2. Murphy*

      I don’t think it’s awkward at all to say that you’re going out to dinner for your birthday, or whatever. It would be weird if you went around volunteering that information without being asked, but if people ask, it’s fine.

      I’ve been at my job for 2 birthdays and I haven’t ever gotten so much as a card. I changed departments, but when I was still in my old departments, one of the managers and I apparently share a birthday. He got a card and a banner, and I got nothing.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Happy birthday! But I’m a bit confused… why would you bring it up at all? Are you looking for recognition? You can just say what your plans are without having to mention your birthday.

      But I’m someone who does NOT want to celebrate my birthday at work (it tends to force me to reveal how young I am, which always gets me negative attention).

  48. Calcifer*

    Tips on not feeling overwhelmed and like a failure? I work in local govt. in a very demanding support role for internal users. I worked this position as a part time student worker and had wonderful reviews from management and users. Once a permanent job came available a few years after graduation I was hired full-time. This was 5 months ago and several of the critical members of the team resigned shortly before I came back so the department has been overwhelmed by the volume of work needed, many of it sitting on the back burner for months or years are now needed to be completed under short, stressful deadlines. As a student worker I didn’t deal with any of the things behind the scenes and provided Tier I support so the full-time folks could meet their deadlines. Now I am in their position and due to restructuring I am Tier I, II, III support as well as being responsible for equipment purchases, deployments, vendor relationships, etc. Due to my prior employment I did not need to be trained but my supervisor has been very hands-off since he is also overwhelmed with his responsibilities. Since starting here in May I have received no feedback and have been reporting to a more senior member of the team who has taken upon himself to act as my supervisor. This has been confusing because my real supervisor has told me to take co-workers word with a grain of salt when he starts micromanaging but in the same breath explains that the previous temp didn’t get my position because he refused to listen to co-worker.

    I’m flying by the seat of my pants every day just trying to keep my head above water and it’s taking a toll on both my physical and mental health. Deadlines are becoming more demanding and the people who were once friendly with me as a student accost me via email and in the hallway asking why I haven’t completed something that was assigned to an employee before I was hired. To make matters worse my supervisor is a “yes man” and will fold under pressure and agree to last-minute deadines which fall on me to become a priority, pushing the duties I was working on back another day or week, causing a pile-up. Our positions are budgeted and there has been refusal to budget in another position because they don’t see a justification. The co-worker I was reporting to was promoted due to vacancy so I am now the only person running my department with needy student workers that try to help but constantly interrupt because they don’t know what they’re doing and I don’t have time to show them. I recently learned that the other team members left due to morale and I understand why. I’m not out of probation and I’m already burned out and losing sleep. How can I turn this around? I was so excited to start this job due to my prior experience but I am absolutely miserable and considering unemployment.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Send your boss a daily priority list of projects you’re working on and which deadlines are likely to be missed given your current resources. Do not make yourself nuts trying to get them done anyway. Make it clear that the deadlines ARE going to be missed and ask him how he would like to handle it.

      At this point, the worst that can happen is that they fire you – and since you’re ready to quit in order not to deal with this, that’s not much of a threat.

      At best, the constant missing of deadlines justifies adding another position… It also puts it back on your boss to manage the deadlines that he is agreeing to.

    2. LCL*

      Yeah, government work can be like this. Since you are already not meeting deadlines, figure out which tasks the student workers could do with 2-4 hours more training. Then you decide when that training time will be, have the training and don’t do any other work during those two hours. Usually two short sessions are better than one long one.

      Use the training to draw up a cheat sheet guide to the student jobs. Ideally the students would do this with your guidance. Make part of their job requirements training others on tasks they have learned.

      You also need a visible way to let everyone who can assign you work know how busy you are. A whiteboard posted in physical space, or something in cyberspace if that’s how you receive assignments.

  49. PoniezRUs*

    I have a weird situation I don’t know how to interpret. I am new to my job and I love the work. It is a higher level than my last job, I have more autonomy, and there is lots of potential for me to contribute meaningfully. I came from a huge multi billion company to a much smaller company with the hope to get experience during a huge transition with the company.

    However, I cannot for the life of me feel like I am really a part of the team. I am not into baseball or football and that is about all the guys talk about here. I mean the top level people and other managers will come over and just chit chat about the next game. I have noticed that these deeper connections translate to more projects and recognition. I have no idea how to make myself stick out. I do good work and I am more than happy to take on more assignments because I like it and when I am busy I don’t have time to be distracted by the baseball and football chats. I am at the point where I am determined to have the best work I can produce and implementing efficiency strategies for our team to become more transparent with each other and accountable to the groups we support. My boss has been supportive of my initiate and I present my solutions next week (YAY). Even then though, I feel awkward. I spent 6 hours in a conference room with one guy in dead silence while we finished a presentation. I am not saying I want small talk or to be friends but geez at least acknowledge my existence with a hello or a friendlier tone.

    Yes, I am the one of few females and the only person of color in our function of 38 people in a pretty decent sized city. Yes, this place reeks of good ol boys attitude but this place has potential and I want to thrive.

    Please, people on here that can provide insights, give me your opinions, advice, feedback. Maybe I am being overly sensitive and need to suck it up or maybe this is not the environment for me. Thanks :)

    1. J*

      You say you don’t have time to be distracted by chats, however you can see that it’s a part of building rapport on your current team. So maybe make time for it? It doesn’t need to be 30 minutes of every work day, but chime in every once in a while. It can’t hurt, right?

      Movies are a good substitute for sports chat, I find.

      As for silent guy: I wouldn’t read into it. As an introvert, I can alternate between tomb-silence and being quite chatty in the workplace, depending on what I need in that moment. For me, silence signifies nothing other than my need to not be social at the moment.

      1. PoniezRUs*

        Well, I do try to make convo and I agree it can be part of the problem but sometimes I feel like the response to movies/shows are blank and polite. My teammates are not really into anything but sports and their kids. They are really nice people otherwise and incredibly talented people. You did just point out something to me though that I appreciate: Because I feel like an outsider, I just tune out these chats and isolate myself.

        1. the.kat*

          Yeah, it can kinda suck not having much in common with people. Do you have any pets? How about fun vacations? I like to keep an ear open for any common threads. If someone is going out to dinner at a place you’ve never been to, ask a question or their opinion. People love to be flattered by asking their opinion on things.

          Also, do you have nieces/nephews/friend’s kids that you can talk about? It seems a little disingenuous at first, but I can talk all about my nephew and show anyone who wants to “kidtalk” his pictures. If not, could you sponsor a child somewhere? Join a mentorship program? It’s good for you and it’ll give you something to talk to your coworkers about.

          1. TootsNYC*

            You can always just ask, instead of telling. And you can just listen–even that will be useful.

        2. twig*

          as an introvert/ not the most socially skilled person — my go-to trick is to ask questions:

          –Any plans for the weekend/did you do anything fun last weekend
          –How are your kids (if they have kids — I try to remember bits about peoples kids so that I can ask relevant questions — but I don’t always remember)
          –Are you looking forward to (season/holiday/work event etc)
          –Also compliments — nice tie/scarf etc…
          –Ask about pets/tell stories about pets

          Then I might add a relevant anecdote from my life.

          As I learn more about people through this type of thing I’m able to ask more relevant questions/check up on things.

          HOWEVER — I’d have a hard time in a sports oriented office too. I don’t follow sports at all — and I work at a FOOTBALL university. Someone asked if i was going to “the game” once and I asked which one…

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. A rule of thumb that has helped me is that people LOVE to talk about themselves. I think I lose ME for the first 3-6 months of a job because my inroad to conversation is to get the other person chatting about themselves.

          Okay, they have kids and they are talented people.

          Get to know their kids’ names and one cool thing about their kid. If you have to keep a list in your car or at home until you get the names squared away. Yep, I have done this. I am not good on names and if I do not know what the people look like I am even worse.

          Talented people. Ask them where they went to school. Ask where else they worked. If you see them doing something really cool in the course of doing their work ask them about it. “hey, I saw you did X with the ABC project. That came out so NICE! How did you get that idea?” People love to explain how they got an idea.

          As you go along you will find little inroads where you can point out things you have in common. You went to school where someone’s kid is now going. You have a husky at home also. The overall idea is that you get them talking about stuff and when you encounter something in common you point it out. This can be as simple as, “i am interested in this, let me know when you find out more.” This takes time but keep doing it. It builds on itself, gradually they start to know you and you start to know them.
          Just my opinion but you should start to see differences in about four to six months. Hang tough and be consistent. Consistency is super helpful.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        A former co-worker just told me that her new workplace is something like this. She’s the only woman, and her boss spends an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon outside smoking. Others join him, and they talk work and small talk. She sees that it’s a problem, and she should join them. Except she has asthma.

  50. Berry*

    I applied for a job posting I saw on LinkedIn (which is really just sending them my resume, no cover letter) and got contacted for an interview the next day, but it was only after I applied that I checked out the company on Glassdoor and saw that they had unfavorable reviews (the posting says PR but Glassdoor says that they lie through their teeth until the second interview when they admit it’s more door to door sales).

    Two fold question: Do you generally trust Glassdoor? In this case I want to since it’s about half the reviews saying this, but also I’m not sure.

    And how do you turn down an interview request for a position that you applied for (not them seeking you out) that you realized was not good only afterwords? I don’t want to waste my time or their time if needed.

    1. Anon 2*

      Yes, I typically trust glassdoor if there are multiple reviews. If there is just one or two reviews and neither are particularly constructive then I don’t take them into account (whether they are positive or negative), but if they provide examples and offer suggestions then I take them into consideration.

      However, I would probably do the first interview just to see if your perception matches that of the reviews. Because a few times the reviews have been pretty rotten on glassdoor, but the interview was good and the organization acknowledged specific issues they were working on.

      1. Florida*

        I agree. I treat Glassdoor reviews the way I would treat any reviews (Amazon, ebay, etc.) If one person had a bad experience, it could’ve been a fluke or maybe the person is a weirdo. But if multiple people are saying the same thing, it’s probably valid. Also consider that people are more likely to write a review when it’s a bad place then a good place. As an example, when someone complains about a bad interviewer on this board, the commenters will often say, “Be sure to write a Glassdoor review.” I can’t think of one time when someone has suggested that for a great interviewer. (I’m not criticizing the commenters. I do the same thing. I think it’s human nature.)
        As far as whether you would take the interview, if you are not working, or it doesn’t interfere with your work schedule, take the interview. If you have to take time off to do the interview, then maybe you could try to clarify it when they call to schedule the interview.

    2. justsomeone*

      When the reviews say anything like “(the posting says PR but Glassdoor says that they lie through their teeth until the second interview when they admit it’s more door to door sales)” believe them. It’s a really common job posting deception. I actively filter for these kinds of postings and I’ve STILL been tricked.

      To turn them down, just say something like “I’ve done some additional thinking/research and decided that this job isn’t going to be a good fit for me. Thank you for your time.” and leave it at that.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, I trust Glassdoor. I take it with a grain of salt, but when multiple reviews say the same things, I know to be aware of those things.

      If you’re contacted for an interview, simply say “I’ve researched the position and sales doesn’t interest me, so would you please withdraw my name from consideration? Best of luck filling the role!”

    4. JLK in the ATX*

      I use Glassdoor and Yelp.

      I researched a position (with a non-profit that I work for – seasonal- and volunteer for) and found that Yelp provided very interesting insight on one specific person (who was hiring for the position) . The position was in a housing community and yes, residents can be miffed and share that on social media. But in reading the reviews noted the same issues, and the ‘hirer’ was named 5x in Yelp reviews over a 1-yr period as not being a very good person.

      Given that I can’t change that person, I can avoid the position by not applying.

  51. Anon Two*

    I’m getting sick and tired of being promised a promotion and then never seeing it materialize. Where I work promotions typically occur at the beginning of each fiscal year (which for us is July to June). For the last two years my boss has told me he’s working on a promotion for me, and then when the new fiscal year starts and I get told that they are still working on it and maybe next year. Why do bosses make promises they don’t intend keeping?

    1. Caledonia*

      To get you to stay and not look for another job elsewhere?
      Because when they say it they mean it but other factors dictate this isn’t possible? (that said they should really explain the holdup). Have you asked them?

      1. Anon Two*

        According to my boss, who I believe some of the time, the hold up is that our CEO doesn’t think titles are important. And doesn’t understand why anyone needs a promotion.

        And I’m not going anywhere. My boss knows this. There are limited opportunities in the city where I live, and I like a lot of what I do. So to me it doesn’t make sense to blow smoke up my ass about a promotion that may never materialize.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Can you call him on it?

      “For the last two years, you’ve told me you’re working on a promotion for me, but it hasn’t materialized yet. Do you have a timeline for when the promotion will occur?”

      Based on the answer, you could then talk about why you deserve a promotion or ask what you need to do to get the promotion. But if I were you I’d also start looking for better opportunities. Promising but not delivering a promotion for two years isn’t good.

      1. Anon Two*

        I had that sort of conversation last year. And the response I got was that I knew that the CEO didn’t like giving out promotions and thought that titles weren’t important.

        And I always keep an eye out, but there are probably 2 jobs a year available in area and in my field, so there isn’t much opportunity for me to jump ship anyway.

    3. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      Some want to keep their promise and some just want to keep you around! I suppose the key is which your boss is and what you’re willing to put up with. My boss has done the same thing with raises for my whole 3 years here. I finally figured out that he’s definitely the ‘just wants to keep you around’ type and have decided I’m not okay with that (among many other things.)

      If you decide not getting a promised promotion, or the attitude that these sorts of things aren’t important, is a deal breaker for you, just making the decision that you’re going to leave may make you feel better. Even if it takes a year or two. I know committing to looking for a new job helped me stay sane at work!

      Good luck!

  52. Raine*

    So I left my old job making chocolate teapots about six months ago for something that actually pays a living wage with full time hours. I still stop by on occasion because the chocolate there is delicious and I was friends with a couple of my old co-workers and I like to hang out in the store and chat a bit.

    My boss (the owner) was always a bit dysfunctional but things have only seemed to deteriorate since I left and now I’m glad I got out when I did. I’ll give you guys a highlight reel.

    – Boss told one of my friends that she wasn’t allowed to look at applications from Male applicants because they weren’t the “right look” for the store and also she’d had a “bad experience” with the last guy she hired so apparently now she’s just blatantly discriminating in the most illegal way possible.

    – They’ve had three employees completely ghost on the store in the last three months. All of which were high school girls. Given the above logic you’d think they’d stop hiring high school girls but no this is apparently still the target employee demographic (probably because they’re the only ones willing to take terrible pay and part time hours).

    – Got into a shouting match with yet another employee that made her just quite on the spot. Owner then tried to insist that this employee OWED HER MONEY(!!) for walking out since she’d been scheduled to work that night (??) and when the employee rightly said that this was crazy the owner refused to give her her last pay check. I believe this one may actually be leading to court proceedings.

    Basically boy am I glad I got out when I did.

  53. Wendy Darling*

    Yesterday one of the nicer coworkers at my super toxic job told me the last three (or four? The numbers got iffy) people they hired for my job quit within a month, and two only lasted a week. But now I’m there and it’s great, he told me.

    Meanwhile I have like 1 1/2 feet out the door. I wonder how many people have to quit before they recognize a pattern…

    2. Archive of Anxiety*

      Oh I know that feeling Wendy Darling. I almost wonder if nicer coworker trying to subtly warn you about getting another job stat.

    3. SophieChotek*

      a lot. they usually never assume it’s them — it’s always something wrong with people leaving, who just didn’t have what it takes…best of luck finding something new and better!

      1. Wendy Darling*

        He did indeed say outright that they didn’t have what it takes.

        And he’s not wrong, because what it takes is the ability to tolerate an indifferent boss, leadership that has no idea what it wants from your job but insists you’re not delivering it, and coworkers who talk nice to your face and then slag you to your boss. And the combination of willingness to take abuse + skill in teapot science is not exactly common.

  54. Married Maiden*

    I’m currently struggling with whether or not I should say something to a coworker about a situation.

    I got married back in June and legally changed my last name to match my husband’s. In July, I submitted paperwork to Human Resources so that tax/payroll information can be reflected accordingly. I didn’t say anything about the name change anywhere else because I was planning on otherwise keeping my maiden name for correspondence and such.

    Just this week, I received an email from IT sent to Firstname.Marriedlastname@company.com letting me know he just finished changing my email address. I find out our HR manager emailed the receptionist to update our internal phone list and IT to update my email address to my married name that same day. She did not say anything to me before doing this.

    I’ve struggled for the past few days of whether or not to say something. Now that the change has been made, I don’t see any benefit in changing it back again so I’m not looking for her to have it adjusted. But at the same time, I think this was so inappropriate that I can’t not comment. I keep going back and forth both about whether or not to say something and about what I should say if I do. I would appreciate an outside opinion.

    Thanks!!

    1. TheLazyB*

      I think most people will presume if you don’t specify otherwise that if your paperwork is changing everything will change. Sorry though that sucks if it wasn’t what you wanted.

      1. Sadsack*

        I agree. I think that you might have mentioned that you don’t want your other contact info changed from your maiden name, just to be safe. Really, I think you should ask about changing it back and explain that you would have expected that someone would have checked with you before making the changes. It shouldn’t be that big of a deal to change.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        Agree with The LazyB. I currently have this situation and I have specified repeatedly that I don’t want to change my name professionally.

    2. Murphy*

      Why do you think it was inappropriate? You did change your name. Was it just because you didn’t get a heads up that it was happening so quickly?

    3. Jillociraptor*

      It’s reasonable to assume that someone who legally changed their name would want to use that name for correspondence. There are certainly many reasons folks choose not to, but I can also see it as an honest mistake or an internal automatic workflow that no one would think to re-route.

      It would be very normal to reply back to these emails saying, “Actually, I’m going to continue using my maiden name for professional purposes, so please switch these back.” But I’m not sure it’s worth your mental energy to be upset about this.

    4. Anon-a-llama*

      If you wanted to keep going by Maiden Name at work you should have mentioned that specifically. Otherwise I think it’s pretty normal that if you change your legal name they change it everywhere at work. Ask IT to confirm that Firstname.Maidenname@company.com will forward to you if you are concerned about losing emails from people who still have your old email address. My maiden name is still listed as an email alias for me 5+ years after I got married and changed it.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s probably a standard operating procedure, when someone notifies HR of a name change, to change their name everywhere unless instructed otherwise. I don’t find it inappropriate. I also think it would be fine to say “I’m still using MaidenName professionally, can you please have my email switched back?”

      1. Judy*

        I’ve worked at two large companies that require the email address to be your legal name. All of the systems, from HR through IT through Travel & Expense (because your company card had to match your travel tickets that have to match your ID) had to be in that name. As in, there was an IT guy known by Ned Jones, but his legal name was Thomas Edward Jones, and his email was Thomas.E.Jones@company. Much less the simple case of me, who always has gone by Judy instead of Judith.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I was told that companies want you using the same name through out everything you do for that company. You can’t have Jane Smith on your paycheck and Jane Jones on your door/letterhead. For one thing it looks like the company is employing two people and it’s trying to do something underhanded.

        So yes, if you tell HR that your name is changing, I would expect it go to throughout their systems.

    6. Lia*

      At my employer, unless you specifically told them you wanted to keep your birth name on your email and in the internal directory, a change to HR for name will trigger the rest of these changes.

      You can always use an email signature or perhaps update the display name to Mary Maiden MarriedName?

    7. Rocky*

      I think it’s a normal assumption to make and not inappropriate, just annoying. Honestly, this was a big reason I didn’t change my name when I got married. It would have just led to too many unintended bureaucratic consequences.

    8. Marmalade*

      Yeah, this doesn’t seem inappropriate to me. You changed your name legally and informed your workplace, why wouldn’t they assume that you wanted to, you know, actually use that name?

    9. JBeane*

      Maybe this is a cultural thing? Where I live (fairly progressive area of the USA) and work (middle/upper management) it’s fairly common for people who change their names upon marriage to retain their birth names for professional purposes. This is true for most of the straight and gay couples that I know. At my company HR would process the payroll/taxes/etc change but not update any directories or email addresses unless specifically asked. I could see how company culture would be different in a region where folks tend to use their married names for everything.

  55. Xarcady*

    Tips on working with a brand-new manager?

    I have a part-time retail job at a major national chain store. New assistant manager, about 4 months into the position. She worked at a different branch of the store as a sales associate for at least 4 years before getting this promotion. Had one week of training at another store prior to joining our staff.

    Problems include almost never getting a direct answer to a question. Rigid adherence to rules, even when “empowered” to override them–things like making a customer come back twice and then wait over 45 minutes while we call Credit Assistance before authorizing a $20 return–something senior sales associates have the OK to override, let alone managers. The slightest negative comment gets relayed back to the store manager, even comments about the music playing in the store.

    Watching statistics day-by-day, instead of week-by-week or month-by-month, so that associates are continually being reminded they are selling less today than yesterday, when today is a weekday with no sales on and yesterday was a weekend with a huge sale plus 25% off coupon–sort of not seeing the forest for the trees. In so many different ways.

    Everything is treated with the same degree of importance/seriousness, from things not being folded correctly to an associate yelling at a customer to new proclamations from Corporate.

    It’s tough, because she’s a very nice person and really, really trying hard to do a good job. But it is frustrating to ask a fairly basic question, like can we swap these hours around next week?, and get a 15 minute hemming and hawing session that leaves us with no clear-cut answer to the question. And almost everyone she supervises is 10-20 years older and has tons more experience, and is getting more and more frustrated that simple things get escalated into huge problems, and the real problems, if they are addressed at all, are addressed incident by incident and the pattern of behavior that causes the problems isn’t dealt with.

    We are at a loss as to how to handle this diplomatically. In fact, I suspect one or two co-workers are about to implode at the next waffle-session.

    Any suggestions on how to lead upwards and help train the new girl?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      Oh dear! You have my sympathies. I dealt with many of these types in my retail career. If this person was a sales associate for 4 years and then took a promotion to assistant manager, I think it’s safe to assume that she is in this for the long haul and/or most likely needs the money and therefore really needs to do a good job and be successful. All that said, I’m sure she didn’t behave this way as a sales associate.

      As for the customer related issues, I would remind her the #1 goal of retail is good customer service and keeping the customer happy at virtually all costs, which it sounds like she has not been doing. Also, if you have been working under the store manager substantially longer than her and she considers you to be trustworthy (I’m assuming you have) then when the next situation arises it might be worth pulling her aside and privately saying “Hey, the last time we had this situation, Fergus authorized the assistant manager to complete the refund to keep the customer happy and it was all good. No need to call Credit Services or anything. Fergus really just wants us to focus on the customer’s experience and limit wait times, etc.” I would make an effort to do this whenever the situation presents itself, but only if you know FOR SURE that what you’re telling her is correct.

      Also, it is worth looking at what she might be being told by the store manager. Is the directive to her different that what you see? Or does she just not spend much time with the store manager at all, save for say 30 mins at shift change, when priorities or to-do’s are communicated. If that’s the case, then she may not have enough rapport or even know how much latitude the store manager is willing to give her so she’s erring on the side of caution to avoid making what she considers a mistake.

      All that said, if the situation persists and it’s negatively impacting the customer experience and employee morale on a regular and repeated basis, I’d speak to the store manager about it and cite the occasions when you’ve tried to suggest she take other actions. I’d frame in as positively as possible and say something to the effect of “I know that she has a track record of being a good employee and I know she wants to make a good impression and do the right thing, but I think there may be some confusion as to what that looks like in terms of day to day interactions with customers and employees.” I would then cite examples of both and leave the ball in your manager’s court to address. Best of luck! Sorry for the small novel.

    1. Pwyll*

      I don’t really agree with a lot of it. An auto-decline for someone using “Dear Sir or Madam”? That’s just arbitrary. Sure, if the application says “Please send your resume to Jill Jones” you should address it to Jill. But, there’s always the possibility Jill isn’t the hiring manager but just the assistant, so Sir or Madam isn’t so egregious. This is just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

      I 100% disagree with #2 about the opening sentence. Perhaps this recruiter is super organized and always has every single cover letter in a separate folder for each individual job, but frankly as a former hiring manager I did not. Sometimes the resume gets slotted into the wrong folder, and it’s helpful for the letter to state which job they’re applying for. Sure, the second sentence can be the catchy thing she’s looking for, but I want to be able to quickly tell which job this is actually for without digging into the paragraph.

      1. Anon 2*

        I agree.

        And any HR or hiring manager that is going to disqualify me as a candidate, because of the first two reasons in particular, I’m not going to want to work for any way.

        The goal of cover letter shouldn’t be to keep the hiring manager entertained. My goal when writing a cover letter is to provide context as to why I am qualified for the position and give the hiring manager a sense of who I am as a person and employee, and that is the type of letter I want to receive. I get that many cover letters are too dry, but personally I’d receive a well constructed informative dry cover letter, than an entertaining letter that is light on details.

        1. jamlady*

          Also agree (to all of the above). I just wonder what the author thinks is an appropriate salutation given that people often don’t know the name of a hiring manager.

          The video at the end was hilarious though. And good examples of some things that would make me cringe (like someone’s personal hobby of hanging out in a magician’s club).

        2. Pwyll*

          Amen. The reality is that few people are good at cover letters, and this recruiter is doing her company a disservice by rejecting candidates based on something so silly.

      2. Bob Barker*

        Yeah, I call that the “Fifty-Two Pickup” line — if your paperwork falls on the floor and has to be picked up like a deck of cards, it’s a good idea for each page to contain enough information to connect the dots as to what it’s actually about.

    2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Same. We don’t give out hiring manager contact info. (Which includes names.) If the candidate happens to have it already, that’s fine, but I’m not going to give it out in the event that the candidate is going to track that person down directly to annoy them. Honestly, it sounds like this woman is trumpeting a lot of the gimmicky crap Alison and others on here have instructed people NOT to do.

    3. BRR*

      This article should be titled “I Review Hundreds Of Cover Letters-and Have Lost Hundreds of Great Candidates Based on My Poor Decisions.” The part about distinguishing yourself from others is good but the rest is awful and just contributes to why people think they need gimmicks.

      1. Dee*

        Lol. I just dealt with a recruiter who asked me to apply for a role but i just got a form email rejection from (i also asked them when i applied what they needed to see in my resume etc and i wrote it around that and they said it was perfect). When i asked for feedback about why i was rejected it was the stupidest conversation i ever had…it reminded me a lot of this article. I asked how long this guy had been a recruiter…2 months. Previous job – marketing manager. Some of these people are just dolts.

      2. jamlady*

        Haha love it. I was pretty sure I was on the right track with hating this article, but I felt it was important to get input from the AAM community to prove a point haha

    4. zora.dee*

      ugh, this person wasn’t even a real hiring manager!!! She reviewed applications for a fellowship program in the past, she doesn’t even say how long she had that job. So lame, I don’t think all of her advice is actually correct, and I’d rather hear it from someone who was a hiring manager at an actual company hiring professionals, bleh. The “internet news” industry makes me so cranky sometimes.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I was an Administrative Assistant in HR and I was the person who did a lot of the initial screening for some (not all) of the applications we received at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. (Sometimes department heads would ask for all of the applications we received in response to an advertised opening, and sometimes department heads would request that I screen the applications.)

      The things mentioned in the article strike me as being very picky and kind of unimportant. They wouldn’t, in themselves, disqualify anyone. I was always looking for the obviously unqualified and letters, resumes and applications with lots of typos. A single typo wouldn’t necessarily disqualify someone. After that I let the deparment head choose.

    6. Observer*

      Her “basics” are fairly nonsensical. She’s right about the over-effusive thanks. But “Dear Sir or Madam”? Seriously? Playing guessing games or sleuthing for a name to put on a letter are NOT “basics”.

      She admits that she doesn’t always remember the job description (Which I totally get.) So why on earth is starting off with a reminder of what you are applying for such a big deal? Unless she is hiring for positions that require creative writing skills, this is just stupid.

  57. HurricaneMatthew*

    A small work rant…

    Matthew is moving through the area. Everyone is on a mandatory curfew in the area, business are shut down in a historic way, and my team is expected to work from home (barring anything like a power outage). While I am thankful that I still have power, it’s frustrating to see other departments are giving their teams the day off, especially since we are non-operational and really non-essential.

    The people that I’m working with on some projects aren’t working today, and there’s not much I can do without them at this point.

    I’m in a snow-day mindset and part of me is hoping that the internet starts cutting out so I have a plausible reason to shut down

    2. Mockingjay*

      I evacuated Wednesday night and have been working remotely at the hotel. Not that I am getting much done; the wait for the damn storm is nerve-wracking. Hubby and Offspring #1 are riding it out. Offspring #1 is essential personnel for a coastal municipal government. Hubby is staying to keep an eye on offspring. I am with Offspring #2 and the entire barn of horses (27!) that were evacuated from their coastal farm.

      For all of the AAM readers in the path of Matthew, thoughts, prayers, wishes for safety…

      1. Lizketeer*

        Prayers for you and your family! I can’t imagine being on the coast right now – several friends are from that area and it’s a lot to follow.

        I am inland, and only a mile or so from a county without a curfew (though I am still under one), so definitely not the worst position to be in.

        1. martinij*

          The Humane Society is supporting those who are in Matthew’s path and may be able to assist.

  58. Kitkat*

    I’m a volunteer coordinator for a nonprofit, and hire for a number of both volunteer and part time paid positions. Occasionally people volunteer with us and then work for us, which is awesome, and sometimes people volunteer because they’re angling for one of the paid positions, which is awkward, but usually manageable. I have this one volunteer, Jane, who had a great deal of trouble signing up as a volunteer on our website, could not seem to follow the directions I was giving as I talked her through it over the phone (even scrolling seemed to be a challenge) and even after she registered, kept randomly emailing my counterparts in other states and ignoring my emails, despite explicit instructions to reply to me. When she did reply to me, she emailed her resume and asked to be considered for the paid position, and I sent her the direct link to the online application. The same thing happened…she could not understand the website, could not click on links, etc. At first I was open to considering her, since the position is not focused on computer work, but it has now become apparent that she would not be able to do even basic things like submitting her timesheets and responding to work correspondence by email.

    It is three weeks later, and despite a lot of hand-holding, she has not even submitted an application online that I could reject! Is there a way I can just email or call her and tell her we’re no longer considering her for the position, despite the fact that she has yet to actually apply?

    1. Xarcady*

      How about contacting her one time and giving her a firm deadline to complete the application, like Monday? If she asks for more help in doing so, tell her that finishing the application on her own is important in showing her computer skills.

      Then let the chips fall where they may.

      1. H.C.*

        I’m not sure that’s the way to go – unless that opening’s actual deadline is Monday, since that might lead Jane to go “why did you tell me to apply by Monday when the position is still listed as open on your website now?”

        Instead, I’d send the blandest, most form letter-y response to her application inquiries for volunteering or paid positions “Thank you [again] for your interest, Jane. The link to apply is [[here]] (if you’re feeling generous, include a few screenshots about where to click, what needs filling out, how to attach files, etc.). Unfortunately, I cannot help with any issues related to the process since I cannot see your screen; you will have to reach out to a computer expert to resolve those issues.”

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      No need to reach out. She’s not computer-literate, which means she would struggle with email and timesheets, which, as you mention, are essential to the job.

      If she does apply, you can reject her and let her know why.

      1. Kitkat*

        The issue is that she keeps emailing me (or my colleagues) with things like “I have had no luck applying to this job. There is no place on this website to do so. Please advise.” Erggghhh.

        1. Xarcady*

          Then it might be best to be frank.

          “Here is the link to the website application page. Basic computer skills are part of what we need in an employee, so we are unable to help you with the application process.” Or nicer words that have the same meaning.

          She may still find someone else to help her apply, but maybe she will stop bugging you.

          There’s nothing wrong with saying, “Sorry, here’s the link. You really need to apply for the job by yourself.”

        2. TheLazyB*

          “really?! We’ve had x applications from people who didn’t need to call for instructions.”
          I mean, not really, but seriously.

  59. Archive of Anxiety*

    Just wondering, during the job probation period, do you guys actively look for other jobs, on the off chance it doesn’t work out and you are dismissed?

    I had seem people not pass their probation in my previous job, and read that one in five people do not pass their probation. And to compound my paranoia, it really seems that this company hired me on the spot, but have no idea what to let me do. In my previous job newcomers hit the ground running, and have to contribute to the work from day one. In this new job, it has been three weeks in, and so far I have read e-mails, taught myself software, read e-mails again, did some tasks which nobody followed back on… while people all around me are rushing projects and staying late nights. I keep having an intensive fear in a months or so the bosses are going to sit down and think, hey, why are we paying the newbie for anyway, we don’t have anything for her to do. Might as well dismiss her before the probation is up.

    Should I start applying for other jobs on the off chance I will get dismissed soon? Would it be taboo to casually ask the bosses if I will be staying on?

    1. fposte*

      They do officially have a probation period, right? Not every company does.

      If they do, I wouldn’t casually ask if you’ll be staying on; I’d discuss with your manager how probation works at this company and whether there’s a formal process for notifying staff whether they’ll be retained.

      Whether you job search or not is a personal call; it’s worth asking at this point if you *want* this job, because it doesn’t sound great. If you do search, though, make damn sure the company doesn’t hear about it, because that will make them considerably less likely to want to keep you.

      1. Archive of Anxiety*

        Thanks fposte, I better give a clearer think as to whether or not my future is inside this company first before I start diving into the search.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I think it would be better to ask your bosses more candidly for feedback on how you’re doing and their vision for what they see you doing in the future and that’ll give you a better gauge.

  60. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I am having so much trouble being an adult today.

    First, I didn’t get much sleep because I was worried about my friends that are in Miami. Then, I had a doctor’s appointment so I came in late today. But, due to construction in an adjoining lot, and more workers coming to my office, when I got in, there were literally no parking spots left. So, I had to park elsewhere- the closest place that would take debit cards was nearly a mile away! This made me lose half an hour’s pay as well, and will seriously slow my commute home; for every minute later I leave, that’s 3 extra minutes in traffic! Then, hurrying to work, I tripped and scraped up my hands and knees, and dropped the f-bomb- in front of a mom with a toddler!

    Then when I finally got in, there were none of the usual work snacks like every Friday, and I realized I forgot my headphones. Hello, boredom and having to make an extra stop at home before the gym!

    I am basically the epitome of the Hyperbole and a Half “sneaky hate spiral” comic today!

    1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

      Great reference!

      But I’m sorry that’s happening today. The good news is that this day will pass and better ones are on their way, but for now you just wane to wait it out. Sending positive vibes!

  61. LinkedOUT*

    Can I talk about a management method I REALLY loathe? I call it drive-by management. In this office the bosses seem to love dropping me a very complicated instruction “Hey can you please set up a workshop on the latest trend in teapots?”, then running off before I can finish writing down the instruction. I have to sit down, figure out my queries, and then start chasing after them to check if 1) Who is attending the course? (He tells me then runs off again) 2) Will it be external or internal (He tells me then runs off again)… repeat. And then after I gradually start to set up the thing by myself (He pops by, tells me that my plans are not good, AND runs off again before I can discuss with him the next steps). ARGH, it is driving me MAD. I cannot believe I am saying this, but I MISS MEETINGS where people SAT down, discussed WHAT TO DO, and WHO WOULD DO IT, even if it takes all morning. How do I deal with a boss who seems to love cardio?

    1. Florida*

      I call it hit-and-run management. I agree that it’s a terrible method. Have you asked your boss if you can have a regular weekly meeting, or even a quick check-in every day? He might not realize that you need that.

    2. Kelly L.*

      OMG, I know this pain. I had a boss years ago who would swan in, drop a rain of papers on my desk, and say “I messed this up, you need to fix it, it’s due in an hour, bye!” and then bolt.

    3. Murphy*

      Can you set up a brief meeting with them to discuss it? May not be possible if he keep running off.

      1. LinkedOUT*

        It is really comforting that I am not the only victim of hit and run management in this world!

    4. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

      This happens with every manager I’ve ever had! I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this (and that the other posters are/have as well). Like they said, a weekly meeting or check in meeting. Make them sit down to talk with you about what they want exactly. Email them afterwards to make sure it’s in writing. “Jane, per our meeting earlier, we will be inviting X, Y, and Z to the Teapots conference in April.” (Tailor to your meeting topic, obviously.) If it continues and you’ve talked with them about how it isn’t helping, loop in their manager or HR or whoever is appropriate and CC them on all emails following to drive the point home. That’s my current plan of attack with my current managers.

  62. I'm Not Phyllis*

    Does anyone have tips for staying organized on the go?

    I’m an Executive Assistant at a rather large NFP, and we are in the middle of agency-wide renovations. It was supposed to be a 1-2 month deal but we ran into some permit issues and now it’s a no-end-date type of deal and I’m struggling! I don’t have an office (or even a desk) to myself at the moment and I’m constantly shuffling around between offices and buildings. Because of this, and the IT issues that come with it, I’m feeling so disorganized and just not at all on my game. Does anyone have any tips on how to reel it in and get organized? Anyone who travels for work a lot maybe?

    1. Florida*

      Try getting a book (like a spiral notebook-type of thing) and keeping all your notes about everything in that book. That way you can carry it around with you. Whereas if you had several post-it notes, it’s harder.

  63. Anonyby*

    I feel rather proud of myself. I managed to get an application submitted last night! I’ve been struggling with mental health issues and while I’ve officially been looking for years at this point, I haven’t been able to focus enough to update my resume or write a full cover letter in over a year. Jerkbrain kept me second-guessing myself and trying to talk me out of it, but I got it in! (And I had a friend who works at the place I applied and has done hiring for them look over my resume, and he liked it. Take that, Jerkbrain!)

    And yes, I know I really need to work on my mental health in order to present myself best for job hunting… but that’s easier said than done. I’m looking for a place I can afford (no insurance at the moment), but I really need to get a new job sooner than later and can’t wait on it until I have my mental health ducks in a row.

    3. Sibley*

      Yay! And since you used the phrase JerkBrain, I’m guessing you also read Captain Awkward. If not – take a look. :)

      1. Anonyby*

        I’m not a steady reader, but I do look every so often. And it’s such a handy term to describe what’s going on!

  64. Tiarra*

    Hello,

    I am somewhat in a strange predicament.

    A recent 23-yr old college grad, I was lucky enough to find a job immediately before graduating my senior year of college. Unfortunately, the salary was dismal even after negotiating. It was more than I’ve made before at any job and the experience I would receive seemed decent enough so I accepted the position. I was told after 6 mos. I was eligible for a raise warranting an excellent/superior performance rating. I’ve always been a star employee and exceeded expectations. Unfortunately, due to budget restraints I was unable to receive any raise. It was annoying as I was kind of depending on any type of raise but not a deal breaker.

    I decided to pick of a second part-time on weekends. During this time, a former boss recommended me to a colleague for an Executive Assistant position. The position paid slightly better ($2k more) and slightly better benefits. But the role seemed more like my former “dream job”. I would work in white-collar corporate and downtown again with the added bonuses of some travel and handle the company’s social media. So I did decide to leave my former position after only 6 mos. (cringe!), but thought this new role was a better fit. It’s very professional and I am the CEO’s executive assistant. I work for him only, have taken on marketing projects and also work with other board members/VP’s directly with other projects. I am very well respected by these higher executives, clients, peers, etc. It is a very professional atmosphere with clients and employees being mostly male. Most of the female are young assistants like myself but tend to have more friendly, relaxed office behavior and in dress. They go to lunch together, hang out on weekends, etc. I, on the other hand am very quiet, prefer to develop relationships slowly and more organically, have a more “business oriented” attitude, dress in clothes that seem baggy on my thin frame, wear my hair in a bun only, no makeup, and mostly come into work to work and mind my own business. None of this has affected my work or created any type of uncomfortable atmosphere. Everyone is friendly and polite to me, vice versa, as well as respecting my work/personal boundaries. Just a note, I am an outgoing person (to an extent) with people that I am close with/in my personal life.

    Because the salary was still not the amount I needed to afford a minimal social life as well as pay all my bills, I continued to work part-time. I needed a part-time position that let me work 4-8 hrs days, weekends only and would be fine if I worked every other weekend. So it did make finding even a part time position harder, as well as me already having a college degree and a steady, full-time job. A friend recommended me to her manager and he liked me well enough that I was able to start later on that day. Basically, I work in a “grille and bar” as a server/bartender (think Hooter’s but it isn’t hooters). I have no experience in the food industry but was told they had a regimented new hire program – which they really don’t but that’s beside the point. After two days of “training”, I was put on the floor on my own as they are completely short staffed. Hence, why they hired an unexperienced person like myself. After a few days, I did pick up and have become a “model” employee. It is completely opposite of my full time job: I wear a very revealing uniform, full face of makeup, including face eyelashes, curled, big hair and a very friendly personality. At first, I was very quiet and am still considered quiet. I do go into work and work. I don’t go out of my way to make friends with my co-workers and prefer it happens naturally and maintain a “professional” attitude. I enjoy working with all the girls, they seem to like me, and I have no drama which is surprising considering it is largely female dominated. But probably because I do maintain work/personal boundaries in this work place too. I am just more friendly and outgoing here as it is necessary and the atmosphere/customers brings it out even more. I am constantly smiling, laughing, joking and having fun. It really is a fun place to work! It’s also on the opposite side of town from my full-time position and in a less desirable area than where my bosses/co-workers live and hang out in. Also, please note none of my fulltime co-workers know about my part time job, I have a unique name and still look recognizable even with all my makeup.

    Wellllllll, here is the issue:

    I tend to bartend more than I serve. My bosses prefer it and I prefer it (make more money than serving!). But recently, with football mania back at it and our always being short staffed, I will serve 1 day at least. I’m also working every Friday and Saturday nights, sometimes Sunday afternoons. Which I am fine with. Because I am not fulltime or primarily a server, I don’t have my “own” section. I serve in other girl’s areas if they no-showed, quit, or were fired. But I have gained a few “loyal customers” who prefer that I serve them, which isn’t a problem for me. It was during one of these times that I filled in for a co-worker that I learned, my boss who is CEO eats here occasionally with a client. I tried to switch tables with another girl and even told a manager before my boss saw me but I couldn’t. My boss wasn’t even paying attention the first time and it was only when his client asked my name and I told him that he looked up from his phone and at me. We acted like we didn’t know each other, provided great (professional) customer service and was left a nice tip. In my weekday job he didn’t bring it up and that was that. But a few weeks later, he was back in again with the same and client who requested me. Management at the restaurant knew of my situation and tried making excuses/sending another girl but ultimately I had to serve them. CEO boss told me that Monday, the company will be working with that client more and he prefers to eat at my restaurant. Which is true because CEO boss only takes clients to expensive steakhouses and private bars. This client is more country than refined. But CEO boss, also told me that the client prefers when I am the server. CEO boss has tried taking him to the same restaurant but in a different part of my city to no avail. The client likes my restaurant and me only. CEO boss and client are always respectful and polite to me, I’ve never experienced anything inappropriate from either one of them. The client hadn’t been to our office so didn’t know that I was also the CEO’s assistant and we knew each other.

    The project is now requiring more than CEO boss and client. Client will be working directly in our office with a team from his own company. More executives with be working with CEO boss as well. During one of their meetings at my part time job, it ended up being my CEO boss, board members and other high executives that I work with directly, client and his team (some of who that has dropped in already and that I also directly work with). Everyone there were males and I was just as startled to see them as they were to see me as I wasn’t expecting basically the entire office. Client learned that I am CEO’s assistant. Everyone was polite, courteous and respectful. Again, no one was inappropriate and I don’t think that I was checked out by any of them. If I was, I didn’t notice. I did my job and was left a nice tip again.

    At this point, I’ve realized it’s become a bigger party that will be dining and that I will ultimately have to serve them per the client’s request. Maybe I am over thinking this, but I feel as a young female working in largely male dominate company especially as an assistant that I am setting myself to be viewed as incompetent and/or as a sexual object because I work in a place where I am essentially displaying my assets and dressing in revealing clothing although in my full time position I dress very conservatively. Personally, I believe women should be able to dress/behave however they want and still be respected not objectified.

    So far, in the office all the men have continued to treat me with respect and I am still given large projects. CEO boss as well as the client, his team and other executives seem to value my opinion and praise my work. I just don’t know if people are talking about me behind my back about my other job, or if I should even care? No one at all has said anything about it to me and I am not part of water cooler talk in even the slightest so I have no idea if word has gotten around. I don’t know if I should quit my second job? Or quit both jobs? Look for a new job even though I’ve been here for 7 months? I’ve been giving away my shifts the last two weeks as I don’t want to run into anyone yet until I know what to do. I can’t transfer to a different location but my manager is aware and will let me when there is availability. I still do need to work two jobs, and it is very flexible for me and I make great money for a few hours’ worth of work in a week. I’m just not sure if this is hurting my professional development in my early career years and/or what I should do. Sorry for the long email but thanks!

    1. Ruby*

      That that seems like a horrible situation to be in! It’s nice that the men in your office are separating the two jobs and treating you professionally – human decency and all that – so I don’t think the solution would be to leave your EA position. The best solution of course would be to transfer to a different location but you said that that’s not possible. Is there any way for you to get the client’s schedule so that you know when he’ll be going there with your office/for business work to just schedule around that?

    2. Collie*

      Woo-boy. I have never been in this situation, but I can see how it would be really uncomfortable and even upsetting. I don’t know the layout of your restaurant, but is it possible to have someone tell Client next time he requests you that you aren’t there that night or simply no longer work there while you work a section that he can’t see? It sounds like a lot of effort to coordinate that, but for this it could be worth it.

      How long will your full-time place of employment have a relationship with this guy? Just a little while or indefinitely?

      I’m kind of astounded that you’re really unable to refuse to serve this table. I get that your group is understaffed, but there must be some workaround there. Good luck!

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      First, I have to say how obnoxious it is that this guy is regularly conducting business at a Hooters-but-not-Hooters. I know there was a lot of disagreement over whether or not that was appropriate that last time someone wrote in about it (https://www.askamanager.org/2015/07/holding-a-work-party-at-hooters.html), but I’m firmly in the “Nothing work-related should take place in a venue that objectifies women.” Just ick.

      Client has put you in a really tough position. Restaurant risks losing his business if they don’t meet his request to have you serve his table. CEO risks losing his business if he pushes back on the meeting location. That’s not on you, Tiarra. That’s 100% the client being thoughtless. You should be able to moonlight wherever you want and not have it affect your relationship with folks from your main gig. But, unless everyone there is super enlightened (which I doubt, considering where they’re holding meetings), I don’t think you’re wrong to be at least a little worried about their perception of you and how that might affect your career development. I could equally describe this as unfair and f***ed up.

      Your boss is obligated to make sure you’re not being subjected to harassment or a hostile work environment, but it doesn’t necessarily sound like it’s risen to that level. Everyone is still treating you respectfully, and you don’t seem to feel harassed. If that changes–for example, if you start to notice Client treats you differently at your day job, or if he does something harassing at the restaurant–then CEO would need to act on it to protect you from the Client. And I’d think the Restaurant Boss too would have some obligation too if something happened at the restaurant (I know the lines on this can get blurry in that type of establishment).

      Ideally, once CEO realized you were the server, he would have told Client the relationship and asked to meet elsewhere going forward. Now that I think about it, it’s weird that he treated it like a big secret and let this go on as long as it did. It’s unclear to me whether they’ve been back to the restaurant since Client found out you were CEO’s assistant. Either way, I could see approaching CEO to ask him to see if Client is more open to a different restaurant now that he knows you work for CEO during the day.

      If that doesn’t work out, though, it sounds like your best bet is going to be to transfer to a different restaurant location ASAP. Or, if you think you can swing it, you might even want to look for different restaurants to serve at. It’s really not fair that you’d need to do either of those things, but it’s certainly the path of least resistance and has the best chance of protecting your daytime employment. Do not leave the EA position over this. That’s the career your trying to develop, so it shouldn’t be the one you sacrifice.

      Oh, and not that I or you should expect it to happen, but if Client follows you to a new restaurant, you report that ish straight to HR, because that is terrifying creep territory.

    4. SJ*

      Ooh, this is tough. I unfortunately have no advice to offer but look forward to seeing what other people say (maybe this could be an individual post for Alison?).

    5. H.C.*

      I’m getting the creeps just reading about that situation; even though you say your boss/client/coworkers never treated you any differently, the optics of the scenario is less than ideal (personally, I’d be wondering who my colleagues are discussing my hooters/twin peaks/etc. side job with – let alone seeing them come to potentially gawk at me in a skimpy outfit).

      I would try to take another second job at another restaurant, especially if you have good rapport with your current restaurant’s manager (i.e. good reference for other foodservice jobs).

    6. self employed*

      I think you are hurting your long-term professional goals by working at a place like that. I’m sorry that’s the case but I believe it’s true. I would get a different second job.

    7. Dee*

      I don’t think this is up to you to solve – i think you need to to talk to CEO first. Explain in 1 sentence why you have a second job and then say why it’s now a problem and you feel uncomfortable. CEO should really hold meetings elsewhere. If CEO doesn’t offer this once you’ve explained, or you want to be more direct – say it! There’s really no reason why that can’t happen. The client can find another location/server to zero in on and besides it’s weird that he’s doing it in the first place. Your manager at the grille/bar knows you want to transfer and you’re waiting for another location top open up (by the sound of it that should be soon surely!) so i guess that’s an option but really, it’s not your problem to solve.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      No one can tell you what you should do with your feelings. If you care, then that is the answer, you care. Honestly, you have carried yourself this far, I think that you secretly don’t care. I might have caved by now and quit the second job. For you to get this far you have other things that you care MORE about than these people’s opinions.

      You do have the option of going extremely pragmatic: you said you need to work two jobs, it’s flexible and the pay is great. And that is your go-to line if anyone says anything. Land on, “Any job I have had, I make sure that I do a great job.”
      Then at home I would be figuring out what would it take to get my finances to a place where I did not need that second job.
      I think your best bet is to assume everyone knows. They don’t, in reality, and some know but don’t care. However, you want your plan for the people who know AND care.

      If this situation is going to burn your brain up thinking about it then you should change it. That can mean transferring or getting a new job all together.
      Don’t quit your day job. It seems to me that so far everything is going okay even though you might be a little shook up by all of it.
      If you decide to stay this place, then part of that decision will be how to keep yourself from burning up your brain. Develop a plan to help yourself calm down. I’d suggest asking about doing kitchen work but that probably does not pay anywhere near what you make and there may not be any openings.

      As far as your long term? I have met people who have done jobs a lot more radical than what you are doing and now they work in government jobs or the legal profession and similar fields. Personally, looking back on my life, I took this stuff way too seriously. We put too much weight on things that don’t amount to a hill of beans in the long run.

      Find your plan, don’t allow yourself to feel stuck. Thing about your goals. Your answer may lie in the realization of your goals. I had a crappy job and a list of five long term goals. I did four of the goals. It was the only thing that put a smile on my face at my toxic job as I met each goal one by one. I had to quit the job to do goal number 5. I was one happy camper.

  65. Sitting in Hurricane Matthew*

    My office is closed today because of Hurricane Matthew. It is a mandatory closing. We couldn’t get in the building if we wanted to. But the company is nationwide, so much of the company is still going on business as usual.
    The company does not offer disaster pay. Salaried people can work from home (usually. It depends on the specific role.) Hourly people can’t. There are also many people who work on straight commission, so they aren’t getting any sales today.
    If you have any personal days, you can use them to get paid today.
    I wondered what everyone else’s company does for bad weather days. Do you get paid for them? Use vacation days? Not get paid? Is the policy different for hourly or salaried people?

    1. ThatGirl*

      My department can all work remotely, so that’s our go-to for bad weather days. But for departments who can’t, they are required to use PTO if they need to take the day off (and want to get paid), which I think kinda sucks.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If we’re shut down due to weather, everyone gets paid for “administrative leave,” unless they had already arranged to take that day off (well, they still get paid, but it comes off their sick or vacation time per their arrangement).

    3. Bob Barker*

      My org’s main campus closes for extreme situations, including weather, but only very rarely. More rarely than I deem safe, considering I’ve had to trudge across unplowed/untreated ice on campus sometimes. When campus is closed, everyone is paid. When people can’t make it in but campus is open, you can work from home (salary), take a vacation/personal day (non-salary) or appeal to the union (they have a bank of days they can give out to members, based on principles I don’t understand). But also, individual supervisors just quietly excuse their team members an hour into a snowstorm and pay them as if they were in sometimes.

    4. jm*

      I live in an area that is threatened by hurricanes almost every year. I’m an hourly employee and when the org closes for bad weather days (sometimes 2-3 days at a time), we still get paid for 8 hours of work per day. I never really thought it a generous policy, but looking at the comments makes me appreciate my situation!

    5. shorty*

      We’re expected to work from home. If you can’t (e.g. power outage) then you can either take PTO or make up the time later in the month. Staff who cannot work from home (e.g., maintenance, food service) are paid their usual rate but obviously do not need to work.

  66. Ann O'Nemity*

    Tips on managing a micromanaging direct report?

    I manage a great employee, Jane. She’s a high performer and I really value her. Jane manages six other employees and the team is highly productive. Performance issues are dealt with swiftly and Jane will step in and fix any problems before they affect customers. This department regularly gets the highest satisfaction scores.

    But when we did 360s, Jane’s team said she was a micromanager and gave concrete, compelling examples. So my questions is – how can I manage Jane to not micromange her team, *without* sacrificing the overall productivity and high customer satisfaction? I want Jane’s team to be happy and to be able to grow in their careers.

    (When I try to Google search this issue, I get a lot of results about managing your own micromanaging boss and nothing on managing one of your reports who is micromanaging their own staff.)

    1. Anon 2*

      Have you had an opportunity to talk to Jane about this issue in general? She may not realize she’s micromanaging, or she may feel that it’s necessary due to the fact that some of her staff have struggled in the past. And she may feel that she must micromanage otherwise she will receive the brunt of the criticism.

      I think talking to her may be worthwhile to get her read on the situation. And I find that many managers don’t even recognize that they are micromanaging. I worked for a boss who swore up and down she didn’t micromanage anyone, but the reality is she micromanaged specific aspects of my job that consequently made it far more difficult.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Yes, I brought it up at our first one on one after I received the feedback. Jane’s noted that she didn’t want to be a micromanager but she didn’t know how to back off and still get great results. I’ve been trying to find good advice to give her with some specific examples of behaviors she should change.

    2. Beezus*

      Based on a micromanagey results-oriented manager I know –

      Talk to Jane about how she monitors all this stuff. Are there metrics or leading indicators she’s looking at, to spot trouble before it’s a real problem? How can she shift that to her team and make them responsible for monitoring themselves in those areas and reporting how they’re doing? Then her role becomes more focused on clearing roadblocks, solving problems they escalate to her, and targeting problem areas.

      And then she needs to make herself step back. I’m betting she’s not disconnecting from the office very much, and if she takes vacation days, I bet it’s only a day or two here and there and she’s checking in often. Can you make it a goal for her to get her team to the point where she can disconnect for a few days without a change in results? If you want to keep the focus on work and not Jane’s vacation time/personal wellbeing (because that can be patronizing), is there a project she could work on or an improvement she could make with 3-5 days of focused work, and you can make it a goal for her to get her team to the point where they can run themselves while she does that?

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        You’re absolutely right she’s not good at disconnecting. Any time off is usually proceeded by some heavy workweeks to ensure everything runs smoothly. And even when she’s off she checks in a lot.

        1. Natalie*

          Can you enforce the “no checking in” for time off, maybe even technologically if needed? Some people just need to experience it once to see that everything is going to be okay.

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Hmm. I’m curious to hear others’ perspectives on this, but one of my first inclinations is that this will require sacrificing productivity and high customer satisfaction a bit, at least in the short term.

      It sounds like Jane’s team is pretty strong if she’s dealing with performance issues and customers are feeling satisfied. However, Jane’s created a pattern of behavior where both she and her employees might be assuming that the work belongs to Jane. Even if they don’t really like it, her direct reports might be in the habit of relying on Jane to do all the coordinating work. And Jane certainly is operating under the assumption that if she leaves her employees to their own devices, the quality of the work will suffer.

      For that reason, placing a really high premium (again, in the short term) on the department continuing to be tippy-top in productivity and effectiveness as they re-align how their team operates might be not only unrealistic but counterproductive for Jane’s mindset in approaching the issue.

      What I might do is bring this feedback to Jane, and be very explicit that:
      1) You hold her accountable as a manager for giving her direct reports authority and coaching them to be able to do their jobs without her regular intervention
      2) You expect and fully accept that performance could suffer while the team realigns, and this will not reflect poorly on her (quite the contrary: it would be progress to see her team able to operate without her intervention)
      3) You have full faith in her and her team’s abilities, and that she will continue to be valued even if she is not constantly micromanaging all the work

      Some concrete strategies might be for her to work with her direct reports on things like repeating back instructions or next steps, process documentation, or summarizing issues to look for patterns on some regular basis.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        “Even if they don’t really like it, her direct reports might be in the habit of relying on Jane to do all the coordinating work. And Jane certainly is operating under the assumption that if she leaves her employees to their own devices, the quality of the work will suffer.”

        Exactly. I got the sense that although the employees chafed a bit at her behavior, they also used it as a crutch.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You need to teach her the mechanics of how to manage differently without sacrificing results — since right now it sounds like she doesn’t have those tools. That’ll mean pretty intensive coaching from you, delving into how she currently assigns work and monitors progress, and coaching her through doing it differently. Basically, you need to teach her this the same way you’d teach her any new skill.

      Here are two pieces from a client of mine that might help:

      http://www.managementcenter.org/resources/techniques-for-managing-managers/

      http://www.managementcenter.org/article/staying-involved-without-micromanaging/

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Two more things:

        1. You need to talk to her about why it matters. She’s likely to be frustrated and feel like if she’s getting excellent results, it shouldn’t matter. The message for her is that her job isn’t just to get good short-term results, but to get good long-term ones too — which means being able to retain good employees (which she may not be able to do with her current style, particularly with her strongest people, who will be the quickest to get frustrated and leave). Also, if she’s being too controlling and taking over people’s work/dictating exactly how it’s done, she’s losing a lot of the power of having a team — she’s going to train them over time not to think creatively or take ownership, and eventually all the emotional responsibility of getting the work done well will fall to her, and her team will just be executing what she says (which means she’s not getting the power of having multiple brains engaged in working toward their goals).

        2. Before you do any of this, make sure that she’s really inappropriately micromanaging. There are times when it does make sense for a manager to be more involved (someone is new, or the work they’re doing is new to them, or their skill level is low, or the work is extremely high-profile/important, or the person has a track record of unreliability). Do some investigation of your own to make sure you really understand whether there’s a problem here or not.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          Thanks! This is great advice!!

          I do think she’s open to change, but I need to be able to provide some specific examples of the behaviors she needs to change. She’s been doing the work for a long time and was amazing at it before she was promoted to management. So I think what’s happening is that she’s requiring her team to do things exactly how she did and not allowing them much flexibility or creativity in their roles.

        2. TootsNYC*

          also talk to her about the importance of listening to her team.

          Of asking them, “How will you handle this?” And then being able to say, “that’ll work!”

        3. catsAreCool*

          “Before you do any of this, make sure that she’s really inappropriately micromanaging.” Thanks for mentioning this.

  67. Jeni*

    How concerned are managers about pay disparity? I manage a team of 4 who are at similar levels. 2 make about 25% more than the other 2. The difference is due to their negotiations when they were hired – before I started.

    The higher paid pair is a white man and a woman of color. The lower paid pair is also a white man and a woman of color.

    Their pay is within the range of fair, based on the market for billable rates for their level. The two who make more are probably a little over compensated if anything.

    We just did mid year reviews and I’m looking ahead to annual reviews and raises next year. Is this my problem? It feels like I should be trying to correct it but maybe I’m overthinking. It will take at least several years of raises to correct.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I would be super concerned from an equity standpoint. It just doesn’t feel good to me to pay basically equally competent people different salaries. If performance is more varied between the two groups, I think that’s a slightly different issue. But if there’s really no better reason for the disparity than “Bob and Jane were better negotiators,” I would want to correct that. I think it is the responsibility of management to ensure that pay is fair and equitable, not the responsibility of employees to uncover the info and complain.

      1. Jeni*

        I feel like this is going to turn into a matter of equity in raises. So if my focus is getting the underpaid pair to a higher salary, I’m going to have to do it with annual raises. But then I’ll have to balance it with the fact that it will limit my ability to give raises to the higher paid pair.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          But if they’re close to being over-compensated, is that an issue? Give them a small raise and give the other two a larger raise, and if anyone asks, tell them you’re bringing the others up to market standards.

          1. Jillociraptor*

            Right. We have both a merit process and an equity process for each compensation budgeting cycle and I think you could communicate it like that. For your two underpaid folks, you can say that they’re getting X to bring them up to market value, and Y as their merit raise.

    2. LawCat*

      What happens if the lower paid pair find out about the disparity? Do you want them to stick around? If so, this is definitely your problem.

    3. Jules*

      If you want to make equity review, please have all the relevant details at hand such as their resumes and build a table which describes education, years of relevant experience, performance rating for the past few years. Once you have all the data, then you can tell if someone is appropriately paid or not. They might be doing the same job now, but if the people paid 25% higher that the others had extra qualifications or experiences, you would do a disfavor to them when adjusting their pay y-o-y.

      I am all for team equity review. You are an amazing manager for dealing with this proactively. Once your analysis is done, please loop in your HR to see if something could be done to make pay adjustments so that they can give you the company’s guidelines. If you have an official compensation department, reach out to them for guidance.

    4. zora.dee*

      Also, you still have the potential here for discriminatory situations to occur in the future.

      What if, just by coincidence, the higher paid woman and the lower paid man left. You would have an actionable pay disparity situation on your hands. So, you are better off working on fixing it now, before that becomes a problem.

  68. Murphy*

    I’m facilitating a two round review process. The first time around, out of 12 reviewers, only one actually met the deadline (a Friday). (And that person was not my boss.) I needed the review scores/comments because my boss wanted me to distribute them to the reviewers in advance of our meeting (a Monday). We discussed this in advance, so I had planned to work that weekend in order to cover it. My plans had been to work on Saturday and take Sunday off, but people took so long getting their reviews in that I ended up working Sunday afternoon/evening. People would also say that I’d have them by X time and then I wouldn’t. Someone was still sending in their reviews after 9pm on Sunday night!

    The second round is approaching. This time, I have made the deadline a Thursday in advance of our Monday meeting. (It had to be Monday, unfortunately, for various reasons.) I’d really rather not end up working a whole day on the weekend again. I have no authority over these reviewers and neither does my boss (though he does have rapport with them.) There are no consequences for them not getting their reviews done on time. Or at all, really. Other than sending out reminders about the reviews, is there anything I can do to encourage people to actually do their reviews on time?

    1. Beezus*

      Have you let them know you’ve planned to work on them on Saturday?

      I have a tendency, if I have a end of day Friday deadline, to assume that my work isn’t going to be reviewed until Monday, so it doesn’t make a huge difference if I finish it over the weekend, as long as I have it done before the start of Monday. In my company, that’s a pretty safe assumption. If I know someone has planned to work on something over the weekend, that changes how I prioritize.

      1. Murphy*

        I purposely almost never make deadlines on Fridays for that reason. This one was out of my control, but my deadlines are nearly always Thursdays or Sundays. (These are often the kind of people who work on the weekend.)

        At the time, I hadn’t met most of these people. They’re kind of doing my boss a favor by participating in this review. I’m a peon, so I don’t think they care when I work. A deadline is a deadline, in my mind. But I think they should know that late in the evening on a Sunday in advance of a meeting on Monday to discuss the review is pretty late. (Having a ranking of all the submissions is common practice.)

  69. Rachel Troutman*

    Just wanted to share an interview story from this week. Interviewee arrives for the interview with two young children in tow. As I am explaining the need to reschedule for a time she has childcare available one child removes the lid to a drinkable yogurt and spins around very fast sending the yogurt flying. Covered two sections of floor, the wall (including electrical outlet), door, and of course me.

    Anyone else have any odd interviews this week involving children or food?

    1. Pwyll*

      I once had someone come for an interview during a downpour, who proceeded to sit in the reception area, pull off his boots, EMPTY THE WATER ONTO THE CARPET, and put them back on. The receptionist stopped him when he appeared to be ready to start wringing out his coat as well. Water is kinda like food, right?

        1. Pwyll*

          I did the interview, but they weren’t hired. I don’t necessarily remember if that was specifically the reason, but I remember who we hired, who was (is) amazing.

  70. LawCat*

    My husband got another application out this week and has an interview today for one he sent out last week. :-) We practiced interview questions using Alison’s book last night.

    At work, he is working on making sure his projects are in good shape and also creating documentation of his job so the next person hopefully doesn’t have to struggle so much with the lack of training that has been provided. (He’ll be quitting by the end of the year even if another position does not materialize by then, but in that event, he’ll be taking community college classes.)

    This morning he said, “I feel hopeful. Even if this opportunity does not pan out, I feel like I’m going in the right direction.” Made me sooooo happy for him and for us!! Definitely a great shift from feeling stuck and hopeless.

  71. J*

    In February, I applied for a job at a now-local university. I received an auto-rejection email less than 8 hours later. (And this was an overnight application, so someone must have seen it and hit the button right away.)

    I applied for another job at the same university in August. My resume made it out of HR and onto the desk of the hiring manager before being rejected after about a month. (Super fast in higher ed time!)

    I applied for a third job (this one a step backwards, title-wise) at the university last week. I was pleasantly surprised to get a phone screen this week.

    You guys: at this pace, in about three more applications, I might actually get a job at this joint. :)

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      It’s possible that you were auto-rejected because your resume/cover letter didn’t meet the number of required keywords. I work at a large public university and this is how our system works.

    2. SJ*

      Over the summer, I simultaneously applied for 2 jobs (different titles) in the same department at a university. The application for one was auto-rejected almost immediately. However, thanks to a connection and some great luck, I landed the 2nd job. I found out after starting that one of my now-coworkers had been promoted into that 1st job I was rejected from — I guess they had to post the position publicly but never intended to give it to anyone but her. Higher ed hiring can be so weird with its timelines and intricacies. Good luck!!!

  72. Thursday Next*

    Longtime lurker, first time poster.
    I’m a graduate student in a STEM field applying for industry internships for next summer. I’ve been reading all the cover letter advice here and it’s been very helpful. I have a couple of questions.
    1) I am applying for internships at US based that are for masters/PhD students and that require skills one would learn in graduate school. The online application says you can upload a resume/CV. Since this is a US based company should I be safe uploading my academic CV – that emphasizes research experience and skills and is longer then 2 pages.
    2) As this is an internship, is it OK to talk in the cover letter about what I will bring to the job but also what I can learn and how it will help my future career? Or should I just focus on what I can bring to the company?

    1. Abovelevel*

      2) I think it would be OK to mention that in the context of your interest in the position. Something along the lines of, “I am particularly interested in working at Company X because your research lines up closely with my graduate program as well as my plans to work in (similar research area) in the future.”

  73. Red Reader*

    Super stoked — my grand-boss buzzed me while my boss was on vacation to inform me that she and my boss have decided that they want to get me LEAN-trained and involved in process improvement functions at the department level. And I just got an email scheduling a pre-meeting for the first one they want me in on — and I’m one of like two people on this thing that aren’t at least director-level (two levels above me) or higher on the org chart.

    They like me! They really like me! :D

    1. Newish Reader*

      Lean is so much fun! We just started implementing it where I work this year and I was lucky to get in with the first group to be trained. Congrats on being selected for your company!

  74. Unreasonably Resentful and Trying to Work On It*

    I am a woman. I have a male coworker on my team who is a similar level to me – let’s call him Arnold. Arnold and I both get a lot of positive feedback about being high performers. Both of us work very hard, produce a lot, and generally go above and beyond what is required for our positions. Both of our jobs require the same amount of face time in the office. But I’ve noticed that Arnold takes a ton more vacation time than me, leaves early more often than me, takes multiple long breaks during the day, etc. He makes a point of taking every single hour off – comp, vacation, sick or personal – that he is entitled to.

    Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that. But I have noticed that while I am generally reserved about taking time off, apologetic when I have to leave early, and always feel I have to ask for time off rather than announce it, Arnold is the opposite. He is unapologetic about taking time off or leaving early, etc, and always announces it rather than asking. He came back from a week-long vacation on a recent Monday, for example, announcing that he was planning to take the coming Friday off as well – and to let him know if that was a problem. No one ever seems to have a negative reaction to any of this, at least as far as I can tell – it seems well-received, and Arnold is very well-liked (as he should be – he’s great at his job).

    If I sound resentful, that’s because I am. But I realize that that’s completely unfair, since Arnold’s time off has nothing to do with me – I’m just jealous of his confidence around, for lack of a better word, prioritizing his time off and asserting his work-life balance.

    Lately I have been wondering if the disparity between Arnold and me is related to gender and the sense of entitlement/confidence that gender socialization sometimes does or does not arm us with in the workplace. And related, I am wondering if maybe the way to deal with my resentment towards Arnold is simply to try to be a little more like him! Maybe I should try to channel my feelings into being bolder about taking vacation time, calling in sick (I almost never do), not being afraid to leave early when I need to, etc. Or maybe there is some other perspective on this I’m missing. Any advice on how to feel less resentful and take time off more freely without losing respect or value as an employee? Maybe my question is just: how can I be more like Arnold?!

    1. J*

      Fake it til you make it?

      I’ve worked in non-profits for almost 20 years, and the one piece of advice I give to everyone is to use every minute of time off you get. The pay isn’t always great, but the organizations I’ve been in have all been work-life friendly. Don’t leave vacation days on the table, especially if you love your job: burn out serves no one.

    2. LCL*

      Attitudes towards time off are more generally based on the family you grew up in than in gender identifications. It’s kind of a blue collar/white collar divide, but more complicated. My father rarely took time off, so I am suspicious of people that take a lot of time off, and I am a woman. It was also expected in my family that you go to work sick unless you were dying, an attitude I inherited. I work hard to not let my inherited ideas affect my scheduling work.
      As long as you are following your office’s policy, yes, take more vacation and leave. If you do, expect more rules, most workplaces can’t accommodate too many Arnolds. As long as the rules apply to all its OK. And if Arnold uses up every hour of leave as soon as he gets it, and your office allows some carryover, he is a fool. S&*( happens and none of us stay young forever. Even if your health is perfect, you may end up needing time off to deal with a relative who has become incapacitated.

    3. Sadsack*

      Yeah, I think this is all about you and has nothing to do with Arnold. Why resent him because you aren’t comfortable approaching time out the way he does? Why feel bad about using every hour of your vacation and sick time, which are part of your compensation? I don’t. I think you should absolutely start treating your time out of the office the same way he does. I think you will feel liberated.

      1. zora.dee*

        “I t0hink you should absolutely start treating your time out of the office the same way he does. I think you will feel liberated.”

        Yes, this. ESPECIALLY force yourself to stop being apologetic about leaving or taking time off. That will be harder than it sounds at first, but it will go a long way toward helping you feel differently about it.

    4. Lily*

      Do you feel like you have to be apologetic and conservative with your time off because of how this has been treated by your managers and you feel they treat Arnold differently, or is this coming from your internalized view of yourself–maybe that you don’t deserve the time off or that it is unfair of you to take it?

      Because if it is the latter, this is more about you and less about Arnold. You are entitled to take all vacation days that are coming to you, as is he. You can fix the resentment by prioritizing yourself.

      I similarly felt this way about something in my own office–a perk that had been granted to a colleague, but not to me. I felt that if I asked for it, I would be viewed as ungrateful/not hard working, etc. But then one day I just made myself ask for it, and it was also granted to me. I don’t know how I’m viewed, but I view myself a lot better and also I get the perk!

    5. the.kat*

      I find that I’m healthier in my non-profit when I take off the time I need. For instance, this summer instead of taking a long weekend vacation and minimizing the amount of time I was gone from work, I took a full week of days off. I got back refreshed and ready to do something good.

      If I only take a few hours here and a few hours there, my staff doesn’t believe they can live without me and the work piles up for when I return. Take a deep breath, hold your nose and take a vacation. You do more good for your non-profit when you take care of yourself.

      Maybe Arnold takes more time off because he’s male and maybe he doesn’t. I know that time off doesn’t have to be gendered though. I got rid of my guilt by making sure that I was scheduling correctly. If possible, give your staff and management plenty of forward notice and try not to take vacation during your busiest times. Other than that, use at will.

    6. Jules*

      I am assuming you are in a exempt position. I am in the same boat as you until recently when an older female co-worker reminded me that I don’t need anyone’s permission to take vacation/sick time/leave early because that is my position’s entitlement. When jokingly bullied by my other c0-worker (happens to be a guy) when I flex my hours, I reminded them that I don’t need to be at work for hours in order to be productive. I have small children and as such, need to be home early and when they go to bed, I am back at work. My productivity didn’t suffer.

      I think you need to realize that you need to do what is right for you. If you feel comfortable to inform instead of ask permission, do so. Really, you don’t need anyone’s permission and if I was your manager I would think that you would be wise enough to scheduling your time around important work stuff. If I have a problem with how you are scheduling your time, your manager would bring it up. Arnold’s schedule doesn’t/shouldn’t even register in your radar unless you are working on something together. Butt in seat =/= productivity

    7. H.C.*

      I used to be super miserly with my time off too, esp since my workplace cashes out any unused vacation or holiday time and lets me bank up to 13 weeks worth that I figured could be used as a financial buffer in case I get fired/laid off or as a “resign bonus”, plus the fact that those banked hours’ value grows as I get raises/promotions.

      So yeah, I didn’t resent others’ taking more frequent time off (while only taking a few days off occasionally when I’m near the accrual max) because I had my eyes on that lump sum prize.

    8. Christopher Tracy*

      I’m an Arnold and I’m a woman. If I was younger, I think I would care more about the optics of me taking my PTO time instead of hoarding it like some of the higher-ups in my division do, but the older I get, the less fucks I give about people possibly side-eyeing me for taking the time I earned. If they didn’t want me taking it, they shouldn’t have given it to me. And I don’t ask to leave early either. If I have an appointment, I just tell my supervisor ahead of time and then roll out. I’m a professional who gets my work done – I don’t need to be treated like a child asking for permission for these things.

      I don’t know if not giving a damn is natural for you or not (it sounds like not), but yes, do adopt Arnold’s mentality – your PTO is yours to use. Don’t let people guilt you about taking it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        There ya go, OP, this is how to think about it. And your resentment is a cue that it is time for a change …. inside your mind.

        When I was first widowed, it was in my face how much of a male dominated world it still is out there. To the point where I was informed that there are men in my community that seek out women who “have no men” to pick on these women. The MEN in my community were the ones telling me this! They knew what other men were deliberately doing to me. (I regrouped. Pulled my thoughts together and effectively told the bullies to stop. And they did.)

        Just like other posters are saying, I told myself to “man up” and “be a man” in order to get myself a stronger spine. I had to take on these bullies and handle this, right in the middle of grieving, too.
        Granted no one is picking on you here, but the point holds, “do as the men do”. In an odd way, this kind of helped me to develop a new mindset for the next segment of my life. And I had to find my way of “being a man” that was still fitting with my personality/beliefs/life. This means it does not happen over night. It takes time.

        Call it your business persona or whatever, but teach yourself to do what is the expected norm in a business environment. Not all of it is “manning up” some of the expected norms are just learning stuff you have never done before, so not all of this will be challenging.

  75. paul*

    So I’m really burned out at my job. I’ve been at it a while. I want to find something new, but my wife’s looking at graduating in the next 18 months with a STEM degree and we’ll probably be moving within 2-3 years. Jump ship and stay somewhere a relatively short time, or stick it out? These life choices….I’ve been here long enough for OK pay and decent PTO, which is a plus.

    3. Bad Candidate*

      Jump ship if you can. Moving plans can always change. Maybe you’ll land some place that you’ll love and will let you transfer.

  76. Master Bean Counter*

    I took a stand this morning. Instead of buying sugary snacks for my team I bought healthy. My office is overrun with chocolate and candy. Hopefully this will signal a change in the office for others. My pants can’t take much more.

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Good for you! I loathe the tradition of bringing in junk food to the office. Not all of us can eat those “treats” anyway.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      My company sloooowly replaced sugary snacks and soda with baskets of fruit. No one complained.

      1. JaneB*

        My place has developed a mixed snacks tradition – fruit alongside the cookies, veggie sticks and hoummous as well as deep fried cheese sticks – it’s much easier to choose the better option than to just say no, I find!

  77. Sam*

    I am seeking advice on an ongoing work situation in a small nonprofit. My office culture is toxic due to my boss, the head of the organization. I have mediated meetings with my boss and HR, but there continues to be issues. I have been looking for a new position for several months, though I have been there less than a year and it is my first full-time position after receiving my masters degree. This job continues to take a heavy toll on my health. I have several months of savings and I have reached out to my contacts at temp agencies, where I have previously worked.

    My questions are these: when is it good to quit if I am unable to continuing coping with the job before I secure a new position? Will it look bad to leave or negatively impact my search, even with temp work lined up immediately after I leave?

    Thank you for your help.

    1. misspiggy*

      Alison often says it won’t be terrible if you leave one job early, but make sure you choose the next job carefully so you can stay there a good while. Staying a year might make it look cosmetically better, like you are managing your rise through different jobs strategically. Depending on how long it takes to get another job, you could end up leaving the temp jobs off your resume – to make it seem like you took a deliberate refreshing break between two jobs that were very much in your plan, oh yes.

  78. Anony today*

    When someone is networking with you- how can you tell if they would be a good fit for your workplace?

    A colleague of mine networked (in retrospect, quite hard), to get in at my workplace. She seemed like a go-getter, really easy going and like she would be a good personality fit. While I think she would have been hired without my input, I definitely recommended her (with the caveat that we had never worked together). Now I literally can’t stand her, and I hate that I was part of her hiring process. It’s so bad, I’m more than BEC level annoyed by EVERYTHING she does. She’s a terrible fit: incredibly awkward and her work is a solid C+ level when the office average is more of an A….. She’s probably feels like I pulled a bait and switch on her since I was so friendly and nice before and now I can barely bring myself to smile and say good-morning without loosing it on her. However, I feel like she pulled a bait and switch on ME!! How does someone go from being awesome at networking to being so awkward in everyday conversations?

    So two questions:
    1) How can I better judge someone’s fit and skill level when they are networking so hard, I’m blinded by the apparent awesomeness?
    2) Has anyone scaled back from BEC level annoyance? How can I climb back down the annoyance scale?

    1. AnonAcademic*

      Ooh, this is tough. Some people can really do well when they’re “on” but then you find out they can only act “on” for very short periods of time. I think asking for lots of specific examples of how they would approach a project like XYZ, or how they handle communication working on team projects, etc. is one way to cut through the interview persona and get at actual work habits.

      I have a coworker like this who I chose to work on a collaborative project with and it turned out to be a nightmare. She wasn’t willing or able to follow through on the project plan she helped design and I eventually took on ~80% of what was supposed to be a 50/50 split in work. I definitely got to the BEC level with her. The project ending helped, after which I created a LOT more distance between us. It took honestly a month or so for me to interact with her neutrally or even be friendly without it feeling forced. We used to do happy hour most weeks but these days a few sentences of small talk is about all I can manage with her.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I very seldom recommend anyone for this reason.

      However, realize that someone can have networking skills and be a people pleaser but you still have no indication of what their work is like. Have more than one check point on your check list, okay have many check points on your check list. Yes, I am saying be a bit pickier than an average boss would be.

      The problem with BEC annoyance is that we have recurring negative thoughts about a person. That is what BEC is. In order to get out of it,you have to find other thoughts. I suggest you try to do more with seeing it from her perspective. She won’t or can’t see it from your perspective, therefore you will have to be the one to move. It’s very difficult to stop the habit of thinking negatively about a person once we start the habit. Set a goal of feeling neutral about her. If you can’t come up with anything else, tell yourself not to turn into a person that you would not want to work with if the situation were reversed.

  79. Bored at work*

    I’ve posted before – can’t remember what anonymous user name – about being bored at work to the point where I’ve considered looking for a new job after only a few months here. We’re talking 50-75% or more downtime – I think they just really overestimated the potential workload when they created the position. Anyway, I’ve been psyching myself up for two weeks and I’ve decided that I AM going to talk to my boss(es) about it today. By 1:37 exactly. (Bonus points if you get the reference.)

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Good for you! When I first started my current role, I was shocked at how much down-time there is, but my coworker told me that it’s kind of a compensation for having to do so much local travel. It’s also important that I’m available to make a report for my boss whenever she asks for it. So I don’t feel bad about being on AAM or other websites! I’d watch Netflix if my screens weren’t visible to everyone who walks by.

    4. Bored at work*

      I did it! And it went super, super good. I literally said, “hey, I have too much downtime and I need more stuff to do” and my boss went “That’s GREAT!” and rattled off a whole list of tasks she’d be glad to hand off, and that still fit within the wheelhouse of my position (which was my big worry). They did such a good job of getting me busy right out of the gate and I work just independently enough that they didn’t realize I had as much time on my hands as I do, and they didn’t want to “overburden” me. Ha!

  80. ThatLibraryChick*

    I’m asking this for a friend who is a dual citizen. Another friend of ours works as a government contractor, asked us if we could be references for his security clearance. We both agreed and got interviewed by his investigator. The first friend is a US citizen because she was born here (has always lived here) and was given the other citizenship at birth through her father. It is from a country where you pretty much cannot give it up because it’s through blood. But for whatever reason, the investigator for his clearance marked her down as a foreign national because of her dual citizenship. This has created problems with him as in he is now very worried that being associated with her will deter his clearance (which is apparently pretty high) down to saying things like she can’t stay the night over because he has to fill out paperwork for being a foreign national. But she’s not based on any sort of definition we could find with the government. She has US citizenship because she IS a US citizen. We’re not sure if he’s just being weird about this on a personal level or if we are missing something in the security clearance rules/dual citizenship status. Any help?

    1. Phoenix Feather*

      As a dual citizenship holder, she is considered to be a foreign national – she has legal ties to another nation. Even if she is also a US citizen, OPM considers her a foreign national. But that does not necessarily mean he isn’t going to receive his clearance. My boss is first generation citizen and holds a Top Secret clearance. His mother, a foreign national when initially hired, also held a Secret clearance as a DOD civilian employee. She attained citizenship years later, but she had a high level security clearance.

      1. ThatLibraryChick*

        I think it’s more that since he learned the information, he’s been treating her differently, which makes her feel like a second class citizen even though there’s no way she could have prevented getting the dual citizenship and neither can she give it up even though she wants to avoid all this hassle.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t think there’s anything you or she can say that will stop him from being an ass about this, unfortunately.

      2. Marcela*

        It’s very odd to think about my nationality as legal ties with a country. I do not consider myself being bound to my country in any way I do not want to. Perhaps it’s because I don’t have to pay taxes all this time I’m not living there, which is often the most important obligation people have. And because I’m not male, I didn’t have to do the military service, the other mandatory thing, so now I’m going to sleep wondering what my country could try to force me to do, given our legal ties…

    2. Pwyll*

      My former roommate was a dual citizen at birth, and I had to list her down for the interviews because we lived together at the time. It didn’t cause any problems for me. It may be somewhat of a flag if he didn’t mark down that he had contact with a foreign national in the section that asks for that, which I think specifically states that dual-citizens count (I could be wrong, it’s been a long time), but that’s the whole purpose of these interviews, to ensure the record is complete. I wouldn’t get too worried about it, so long as he fully disclosed everything else on his application.

      1. blackcat*

        Maybe it’s because I’m in academia in a STEM field, but marking down “having contact” with a foreign national sounds crazy. Most days, I talk to people from like 6 different countries. Some days it’s more like 10. I’ve worked very closely with people from a variety of countries, including a lot of middle eastern nationals.

        I really don’t see how that should impact my ability to get a security clearance. Not that I’d ever need or want one. I mean, I could see them caring about immediate family being foreign nationals, but friends? colleagues? seems odd.

        1. Sophia in the DMV (DC-MD-VA)*

          It’s not that it’ll stop you from getting a clearance, the government just wants to know regular foreign ties people with those security clearances have. My husband has a top secret clearance and he had to disclose us giving regular remittances to my family in another county

  81. Tomato Frog*

    I am not an editor/copyeditor nor do I hire them, but I am an archivist who works with the records of publishing companies. I have looked at a lot of job applications for editorial positions lately. My hot tips, fresh from the publishing scene of the 1980s:

    * Gimmicky/salesy cover letters look really callow. They will not give you an advantage over applicants who write a simple, coherent letter such as one human being might write to a fellow human being.
    * The most experienced applicants don’t feel a need to put their weight (!) on the application.
    * No need to write a two-page cover letter. Plenty of people who write three paragraphs or fewer get a shot at the job.
    * Don’t write “utilize” where “use” will do.
    * When you are given a sample piece to edit, remember that you’re applying for an editing job, not a critic job. I know y’all have English degrees, but this is not the time to write your term paper. Couch your suggestions in terms of trying to help clarify the writer’s intent, not trying to show how bad of a writer they are or how great you are at analyzing literature. Also: there is a reasonable chance that the editor actually knows the person whose piece they’ve asked you to edit.

    That’s all I got for now. But seriously, it’s the 1980s already. Stop putting your weight, age, and height on your resumes!

      1. Tomato Frog*

        There is a disproportionate number of us here, which I take for a good sign. Archivists are an indicator of a healthy ecosystem!

      1. Bibliovore*

        another shout out from the archives. I would love to see my cover letter and resume from 1989 when I was applying to publishing jobs. I can’t believe they kept those things. I am sure I didn’t put my height and weight but I am very sure there was an objective.

  82. Susie*

    Last week, I accepted a new job and was waiting until that Friday afternoon to formally give notice. On Thursday, they offered me a promotion, which ended up advancing my announcement by a day and generally made the whole conversation very, very awkward. I’ve been on the receiving end of many cold shoulders this week, but today it seems like the frost is melting a little. At least it’s just one more week!

  83. AliceBD*

    Question about comp time

    I think I read on here previously (but can’t find the link) that comp time is not allowed except for the federal government. Does that just mean comp time in lieu of overtime pay is not allowed, and if you are not currently eligible for overtime (e.g. my boss, or me right now before the rules change) you can get comp time if your company allows it?

    Just wondering as we just got an email asking us to do some testing tomorrow morning and mentioning comp time.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can get comp time if:
      – you are exempt
      – or you work for state or federal goverment
      – or you’re non-exempt it’s taken within the same week it was earned, so your total hours worked that week don’t go over 40

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        You can also get unpaid time off, right? It just isn’t comp time.

        So if you work 50 hours in week A, you receive overtime for 10 hours. But in Week B, you could be scheduled for 35 hours and it would balance throughout the year.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes. You have to be paid overtime for those 10 hours in week A. But there’s no reason you couldn’t also work fewer hours a different week (they still have to pay you that overtime from the first week though).

  84. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So, today has been awful. First I had an uncomfortable doctor’s appointment. And due to that I came in later to work; and that meant literally NO convenient parking.

    I had to park almost a mile away. And so I lost half an hour’s pay and traffic will be much worse by the time I leave. And hurrying to work, I tripped and ate it on the concrete. Dropped the F bomb. But a mom with a toddler was also walking, and yelled at me for that.

    Then when I finally DID get in, there were none of the usual Friday snacks. And I realized I forgot my headphones. Oh and the inconvenient parking costs at least twice what my usual spot does.

    Any ideas on how not to basically be the Hyperbole and a Half “sneaky hate spiral” comic at work?

    2. Bad Candidate*

      The toddler would have been learning a few new curse words from me if the mom had yelled at me for swearing after I’d just taken a header onto concrete. I mean WTF cut me some slack, Jack.

    3. Photoshop Til I Drop*

      Yelling at someone for cursing when they’ve injured themselves is crap. It isn’t like you were standing around, saw a child, and figured it was NBD that you were letting four-letter words fly. That woman is an insensitive, self-absorbed jerk.

  85. Little Bean*

    So I am graduating in December with my MBA, hooray! I am looking for new roles, but double hooray- I am also pregnant (due in March). I have close to 8 years of professional experience and I am looking at consulting roles, primarily those with start dates next fall (typical MBA hiring timeline). I have met a couple of folks in my search/networking that are looking for immediate position fills, or encourage me to apply for experienced hire positions that would be filled now. I don’t “look” pregnant yet at 17 weeks, and I know people have negotiated maternity leave in the past, but since it would only be 2 months I feel like I need to wait. How do I explain to employers that I am only looking for a fall 2017 start date when they seem excited about me applying now? I don’t want to tell anyone I’m pregnant, because at that point it will have little impact, if at all (my husband will be staying home).

  86. WonderWoman*

    Hey all. I have an interview next week for an editor position with a nonprofit – I am hoping to transfer from book publishing. Has anyone else done this? If anyone has any tips/knowledge about doing this it would be much appreciated!

  87. Lunch Key Kid*

    I accepted a job offer! Making 15% more than my last full-time, permanent position, better boss, and more in-line with what I’m interested in. But currently I’m in background check limbo hell. They use a third-party verifier and I’ve had to scramble around finding W2s, pay stubs, etc. Even had them say they couldn’t verify my current employment despite talking to my current manager! I know it /should/ all work out, as I’ve always passed background checks before. But this is the first time I’ve had issues, and the first time I’ve actually had to do any of the verifying legwork, so it’s hard not to get anxious when I’m set to start in 10 days.

    Can anyone relate?

    1. Rincat*

      Congrats! I’ve been through that before. It also sounds like when I was buying my house, and the lender wanted EVERYTHING under the sun. You’ll be fine though. :) Good luck with your new position!

  88. Soupspoon McGee*

    You guys! I got invited to interview at one of my top PA school picks–one I thought would never pick me! I’m so excited!

    Also, interview advice for prospective PA and medical students is rampant, much of it really bad.

  89. Phoenix Feather*

    Regarding the new Overtime laws… is there a website that would specifically list approved specialty jobs that would remain exempt under the $47k threshold? I’m curious to see if my former position would still meet criteria for exempt status. My former co-workers are severely underpaid as it is, and I would not be surprised to find that former department is simply ignoring this new law and expecting no one to notice. That would also be why they only have four people working 50-80 hours a week instead of the 7 people they should have at a minimum.

      1. Phoenix Feather*

        Thank you so much! This has proved my point – that job position does NOT qualify as exempt and the department is liable for OT. My former coworkers will be quite happy to hear this.

  90. Anonnie*

    Looking for some perspective here.

    Ive spent the last 6 years in two fairly toxic workplaces (the last one really toxic), connected by a year of unemployment with an international move. Im burnt out on job searching and am worried about running into a third toxic situation. The weight gain and lack of basic movement in response to conditions at my most recent contract led to a rather scary medical situation that has limited my mobility for the last month. I work in a very competitive field, and have a comparatively suboptimal resume because everyone wants the big name MBA/consultancy types, even if they are narcissistic jerks lacking any ability to lead or make key decisions (not all, but more than a few!)

    All the same, I scored two offers from rather short interview processes, due to leveraging contacts from Toxic Company 2 (TC2). One is with a completely new company, lovely people, great offices, a lot of flexibility and interesting work, but the pay is a hair lower and the bonus 1/3rd what I made at TC2, and I am concerned my skill set is at the top of the role. It is also a divergence from my current path on the corporate side into something more policy based which I cant say is a path I had ever really considered. I am leaning towards taking this even with the pay cut because it has a lot of perks I am interested in, and hopefully a jerk-free environment (additional contacts who had worked there could confirm and personally had good things to say about the people in charge). The company also has excellent reputational and name recognition, but there could be limited chance for progression.

    The other option would be back with TC2, in a different, but newly created role, doing interesting things that are more in line with my current career and could have good implications/training/direction for the future BUT there are systemic institutional challenges that could null and void any work done. I just lived that for 18 months, and even though it is a different team with non-jerky elements, I am not sure I want that stress back in my life because I would have to interact with the jerk folks as part of the role. Pay/bonus would be the same as when i left, uncertain guaranteed potential for growth, but I can see where it could potentially lead (managerial status, small staff, etc).

    While job 1 sounds like the right move, I have this nagging feeling in my stomach that I didn’t spend enough time looking at other roles, even though they can be months of annoying testing and interviewing, not to mention I spent the first part of the year looking and didnt get very far. We have savings, but I am so unmotivated to look for something else, and just want stability in my life after the turbulence of the last three years. I am having difficulty reconciling this need to “always be moving up and into more money and bigger roles” with finding balance I can live with and accept. My career seems to have been built on lateral moves made when unemployed. Does anyone have any particular thoughts on silencing The Nag? :)

    1. Grumpy career changer*

      Congrats on the offers, and I hope that things go better with your medical situation.

      It sounds like either option is going to be an improvement, so there’s no wrong decision :)

      The fact that the first offer is in a jerk-free environment (confirmed by your contacts as well as your impressions) is attractive. And you mention that the company has a good reputation. So maybe you decide how long you want to spend there, enjoy the perks and environment, and look for something with more money and power in three years? Leaving some money on the table forever would be difficult, but leaving some money on the table for a few years could be ok.

    2. MissGirl*

      No matter what decision you make The Nag is always there telling you something different. It’s not about silencing it; it’s about making a decision and moving forward. Think about being so willing to give into that voice you’re willing to go back to what you call a toxic company. It’s like going back to an abusive relationship because he says he changed and you think maybe what if he has. Move forward. The past is known; write a new future.

  91. N.J.*

    I just need to vent. I was participating in a training for work this week with folks from around the company. Big location with 3,000-4,000 employees, so it’s not like I know everyone. We were partnered in teams of 3-4 to do an activity involving folding clothing (long story, but it was used to symbolize the need for process standardization). Only one person in each group could be chosen to fold the clothing. So while we are sitting in my group and no one has volunteered, the guy next to me said something like “Well you would be the best candidate” or “You would fold the best.” The problem, you ask? I was the only woman in a group with three guys and this {insert expletive of choice} suggested I was the best to fold things for this activity. What I responded with was “I’m not the one in my household who folds the laundry.” What I wanted to say was “So because I have a vagina I’m the logical choice….!!”

    I have dealt with different types of sexism in different personal and work environments, but the absolute conviction with which this idiot made that statement with no hint of it being a tasteless joke or some sort of flippant comment meant to get a rise out of me, the way he stated it like you would state that someone was the best choice for something normal, makes me fear for humanity.

    1. DragynAlly*

      Wow that’s just ridiculous. My husband does the clothes folding in my house. Sexism like that burns me up.

      1. N.J.*

        Thanks, it’s disheartening sometimes. The crappy part is that I expect people in my generation to have learned better and to have better ideas about equality. I’m in my mid-thirties, this guy was around the same age.

      2. LCL*

        My engineer boyfriend folds clothes about a million times better than I do. When I try to help him he tells me to go away.

        I would have been tempted to take the folding job and talk about women’s innate superiority in domestic tasks, then fold the way my mom does. Which is everything wadded up in a ball.

    2. Dawn*

      Hahahah oh my god, I think I would have played dumb and been like “But why?” and make the guy come out and say it was because I was a woman. That is ridic and it sucks that some guys just. do. not. get. it. when they say crap like that.

      1. N.J.*

        I thought about that but wasn’t sure I could hold in my rage if I engaged more than briefly…FML

  92. TR*

    I’m just curious if others would be annoyed by this very minor thing. I’m sure it’s mostly a BEC situation (as I have many legitimate issues with this coworker and at one point started a list of all the different topics I considered writing AAM about her), but thought I’d run it past the group. It is not something I expect to do anything about.

    So with all that out of the way, my coworker will respond to my emails very frequently with one word followed by ……

    For example, we will have been emailing about some document, I’ll email it to her, and she will respond Thanks…….

    Or I’ll respond to her a question of hers and she’ll say Ok…….

    Again, this is so minor but it reads passive aggressive to me and it makes my blood pressure go up every time. I’m fine with one word answers but those dots just drive me up the wall.

    2. Allison*

      Oh my god, that would drive me bananas! It definitely sounds passive aggressive.

      But some people just use ellipses a lot. It’s nuts but may not be intended to mean anything, it’s a poor style of written communication.

      Part of me would want to ask this person if anything is wrong, but in reality I’d probably ignore it unless there was more convincing evidence that she has an issue with your work. If she has an issue and isn’t saying anything about it, and it just hoping you’ll “pick up” the hints, that’s on her.

    3. Gandalf the Nude*

      I would find it annoying, but I would also let it go. It can make you groan at your monitor, but you will look nutters if you ever address it. I’m sure you know that second part, but sometimes when you’re at the BEC stage, it helps to get that kind of reminder. :)

    4. TheLazyB*

      My mum does it. It drives me mad but i know she doesn’t mean anything by it. Actually maybe I should tell her how it reads…

    5. Bob Barker*

      I used to have a department chair who would respond to emails in all caps. Not at length, just YES THANKS or CANNOT MEET THAT DAY WILL BE ABROAD.

      …Logically, I know he is just Not Good With Technology and Tone Deaf While Typing On A Phone. However, the idea of someone shouting YES THANKS at me was one of the bizarro highlights of my day sometimes.

    6. BRR*

      I don’t consider it minor. I despise that. That read to me as incomplete or that they are being told something that’s obvious or something.
      “It’s sunny out” “Yes…”

    7. AliceBD*

      It would annoy me as well! There’s an epidemic of people using ellipses instead of periods. I don’t know why. It makes it seem either like they’re being passive-aggressive or that they can’t trust themselves to state facts, depending on the context.

  93. DragynAlly*

    So I have been dealing with Lupus and bunch of other autoimmune diseases for about a year now. Which makes it really hard to do anything some days. I cope when I can but it sucks. I currently work as a social media/online marketing person for a small family business. When I first started I was told over and over again how I would so be put on full time. That started September last year. Even recently my boss told me he was going to bring me on full time and pay for me to take classes to advance my skills. Awesome. Well a week ago he forgets a few days in my paycheck. I’m not worried. He usually fixes these things. But he gets upset and says he’ll pay me in cash. OK. When he pays me he calls me into his office and tells me I am in too many days (i only work 4) and he needs me to go down to 3. There’s isn’t enough work for me to come in 4 days. I push back because I work really hard every day I am working and when I am not in the office either he, his brother, or his wife are texting or emailing me with work they need me to do. He then tells me that he needs me to do more work and he is sick of me sitting at the computer all day (my job is working online!) . He says that I shouldn’t be waiting until he come to me with a list of things to do before I work because he is too busy to tell me what to do. When in reality when he does have his list I’ve already done it. He then says that maybe if I come up with a list of things to do he can look at it and maybe he will let me stay on 4 days. I have to give that list to him first and he can then shoot it down, when he isn’t busy. But maybe I can stay for 4 days. As for working full time? That will never happen he says. He says he’s making no money. He says maybe social media isn’t the “magic bullet” everyone thinks it is and that people like me are a dime a dozen. Of course the next day he acts like this never happened. I guess I am saying all of this as a bit of a rant. it hurts when someone thinks me sitting at a computer all day isn’t work. It hurts that part of me actually prefers he thinks I’m lazy and not sick. And I really say all this to say I am putting in my 2 weeks notice a week from today. I can’t keep doing this. I can’t keep working for the promise of full time. And i can’t stay in this much pain and be told it isn’t enough. My husband and i agreed he will work while I get doctor appointments in and try to take care of myself. Anyway thanks for listening. I don’t even know if I am asking for advice or comradery.

    1. Dawn*

      Seventeen internet hugs to you! Autoimmune disorders suck- one of my best friends has one so I’ve seen first-hand how HARD it is!

      Leaving to focus on yourself sounds like a good plan- a GOOD boss would be straight with you, wouldn’t be “forgetting” days out of your paycheck, and absolutely wouldn’t be going “oh well all you do is stare at the computer anyway you don’t do any REAL work”. Your boss is absolutely in the wrong, and I’m sorry you had to go through that! I hope that having some time to focus on yourself and on feeling better is productive and that when you are ready to find a new job you get one with a great boss!

    2. fposte*

      This is a crappy business that’s going broke, or near as dammit. Don’t take anything happening there personally, and get out before they decide they’re not going to pay for social media staff at all.

      1. justsomeone*

        +1
        Find something new. Social Media is a lot of invisible work that people just *don’t* understand unless they’re the ones doing it. As YOU know, it’s not just a slapdash “oh, I think today I’ll post about x.” There’s a TON of behind the scenes stuff that goes on before a post ever goes live.

    3. AliceBD*

      Oh wow! I also have an autoimmune disease and am a social media specialist. I know how hard it is when people don’t believe you’re doing actual work. Hugs to you!

      And yeah it sounds like the business could be failing.

  94. twice_actingdirector*

    I am currently applying for jobs and I have a question regarding how best to list my ever-changing job title/responsibilities on my resume/CV. Basically I’ve been at my organization for two years and have had 4 job titles – which I don’t really think is a bad thing – I’ve demonstrated my ability to do executive director level work successfully, and am searching for jobs because there isn’t any more room for growth and changes at the leadership level at the university have de-prioritized the parts of my job I really love (creating programming). We’re a very small department (just 3 employees). I am currently serving in an ‘acting director’ of teapot programming type role at a university for the second time in two years. I was hired to be program coordinator, about 2 mo. after I started the founding director left, I served in the interim role for 7 mo. while they searched for a replacement (I didn’t apply because I had just started in a more junior role and didn’t feel qualified) and while it was entirely overwhelming I also got a lot of great experience as interim director. I then lobbied for a change in job title/responsibilities to program manager with new director and have been in that role for the past 16 mo. Now I’m covering current directors maternity leave.
    Right now my resume is broken up as:
    xx-xx university teapot program – basic description
    two months program coordinator
    (achievements/job responsibiliites)
    seven months acting director
    (achievements/job responsibiliites) – implemented new systems, set budget, season programming, etc.
    sixteen months program manager
    (achievements) – new program development; season programming; marketing strategy; etc.

    The question is do I list that I am acting director again – or do to the short duration (3 mo.) do I just make reference in my cover letter?

  95. MM*

    Just a rant out of frustration over my insurance situation …

    I’m at a very small nonprofit with only 4 employees. Of those, 2 are married and one is young enough to still be on her parents’ insurance – and then there’s me, the only one who needs insurance through my job. I’m finding the insurance to be expensive – $220 per month *just for me* and it’s not some kind of Cadillac plan, I still have copays. I also don’t have dental insurance, even though the offer letter said I would get it, because according to my ED our insurance broker didn’t provide any plans that would allow for signing up just one person.

    At some point the ED floated the idea that she would budget to allow for the organization to pay for 100% of our premiums, which would be a huge relief for me, but when I asked her about it yesterday she said there were “other budget priorities”. I get that, but I hate that insurance seems to be of no concern because everyone else is taken care of except me – like, we’re still running under the assumption that our all-female staff has some male figure in their lives who they can get insurance from.

    1. Pwyll*

      You might recommend that the non-profit look into insurance consortia of some kind. In Massachusetts we have something called the Small Business Service Bureau (it’s a for-profit company), which pools smaller companies together to negotiate for lower rates as if they were larger. There may be something similar in your state, or even an organization that specifically works with non-profits.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Ugh I’m pissed about my insurance too.
      Found out yesterday none of my current medications will be covered, apparently they changed drug lists or something. Currently I pay nothing for two and only like $25 for one. Now I’m going to have go through the entire process of trying the preferred, which I’ve had to do at other employers and just ended up back on my previous medications with doctors recommendation and having side effects on all the others. But this year, there are new medications, so I’ll probably have to try them, and if they work, fine, but since I’ve done this before I figure they probably won’t, which means I’ll be having side effects not to mention issues with my original chronic medical issue being out of whack. It’ll probably be April before I get it all straightened out. And the worst part is, I’ve been having issues with depression for months and finally got that straightened out and have been much more productive. Entire thing blows.

      1. BRR*

        Ugh that sucks. I’m in a similar situation. My insurance (which is the devil) had an option for my doctor to say I’ve previously tried the preferred and it didn’t work because X. It took a lot of fighting from myself and my doctors but I pushed it and took no prisoners. Maybe your insurance has a similar process?

  96. SoExcited*

    I want to apply to a job that isn’t on its surface one that is in line with my current experience–it’s a slightly different field. However, I know that the specific skills that have lead me to be successful in my current field are the same ones required in this field. I think I’d be really good at the job.

    I happen to have a personal anecdote that I think demonstrates how important doing this job well is (as in, I personally had an experience with someone who held a similar job and did it poorly, and it lead to a moment of panic on my part, but is something I can laugh about now). Would starting my cover letter with this personal anecdote be a cool thing to do, or would that somehow seem like I was trying to be cutesy? I’ve always been pretty conservative with my cover letters in the past.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      It honestly probably depends how you word it. Would you mind sharing it or is too specific that it might give away your identity?

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      Naaaah, I wouldn’t include an anecdote about seeing someone else do something poorly. That doesn’t strengthen your candidacy. You could probably work it into an interview, though.

      1. SoExcited*

        That’s a good point–it doesn’t really show that I have the skills to do better. It is a job that requires a high level of attention to detail, and one in which small mistakes could make large problems. I was going to tell the story with the angle that the experience showed me how important being on top of every detail could be, but you’re right…it doesn’t show how I am good at that.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you can tell it in one or two sentences, and it explains why you’re looking at a position in this area, I might use it.

      Example: “Although I’ve been designing strawberry letters for the last five years, I recently purchased a chocolate teapot and found it was so poorly designed, I practically had to rebuild it from scratch. Not only did my work as a strawberry letter designer prepare me for this task, but I discovered that I loved it, which is why I’m applying for the position as a chocolate teapot designer.”

  97. Anon-a-llama*

    I gave notice at current job and my boss wanted to know if I’d stay if they matched my offer. I didn’t want to burn any bridges so I told him probably not but didn’t shoot it down completely. I’m leaving because of money + other work things, so just fixing the money doesn’t fix the other things. Now he’s telling me that he’s still working on a counter offer. Do you guys think it’s ok if I just avoid the subject or do I need to come right out and say “No I wouldn’t take a counter offer even if you do get the approval for it?”

    1. DragynAlly*

      How long is your notice period still? Maybe you could tell him the day before your last day. But if it would make you feel guilty tell him sooner.

      1. Anon-a-llama*

        I have another week left. When he first brought up potentially countering the phrase I used was “I don’t want you to stick your neck out for me when I probably wouldn’t take it.” He’s aware of the other reasons I’m leaving though he’s brushing those off.

        1. DragynAlly*

          Then yeah you were honest about it. Just reiterate. Say “thanks but I think I should move on” or something better. I suck at words today.

    2. Murphy*

      If you’re really not interested in a counter offer, you should tell them. That way they don’t waste their time putting one together just for you to turn it down immediately.

      1. Anon-a-llama*

        I was afraid that would be the thing to do. Was hoping to avoid more of the guilt trips and bad-mouthing my new employer he’s already tried to throw my way.

  98. TotesMaGoats*

    Thisclose to walking out today. Had an actually productive meeting with my boss for a WHOLE hour. That has not happened in the 10 months I’ve reported to her. Started to feel slightly better about this place. Then had another meeting to prep for a strategy meeting where a SrVP actually said to my face how fantastic I am. So, even better. Come back to my office and program director has decided to jump over me and marketing director and promote stuff on facebook. Do their own webinar. I give up. I actually give up. If you can do it better than me then go right ahead. You don’t have anything else better to do with your day. (Actually you do. I know you do.) Dear lord please get me out of here.

  99. Amber Rose*

    I’m not usually too bad for imposter syndrome but I just submitted the audit I did for QAP and I’m literally freaking out about how unqualified I feel to have done this whole thing and how it’s going to get sent back with everything needing to be redone. Or worse, accused of plagiarism even though I only used the last one as a reference for structuring notes, not content. I haven’t been this nervous since I submitted my last term paper in university.

    I was pleasantly surprised by how many managers contributed to the close out meeting. I guess they care in their own way.

  100. Jillociraptor*

    My workplace is kind of a hot mess right now and people are leaving left and right. If a great opportunity came my way, I’d definitely take it, and I’m keeping my eye on other positions, but I wouldn’t say I’m actively looking.

    With all the departures, people have started saying things to each other like, “Are you planning to stick around?” and “You aren’t looking for something new, are you?” Most people here are normal but some are so decidedly not that weird rumors get started. (My boss is fully in the know about my plans so no issues there.)

    Any suggestions for answers to that question that would neither make it seem like I had been lying if I did take a new job, but also don’t sound like a euphemism for a formal job search?

  101. RKB*

    Less of a question, and more of a vent, but sometimes people say things at my job and it’s SO frustrating.

    I work for the municipal government as a front desk clerk for city run attractions and recreation. This means state of the art buildings that power holders and Olympic swimmers would envy, complete with leisure pools, NHL sized arenas, hundreds of drop in programs from Pilates to Circuit Training to Aquafit, and open gymnasiums where kids can shoot hoops in a safe and warm space.

    I had a patron scream – not yell, he was screaming – at me because the lifeguard apparently yelled at his under 8 son. He refused to tell me WHY the lifeguards yelled. He just wanted a manager. I was fine with this situation (our lifeguards are amazing, but hey, maybe one of them was having a bad day or something) until the patron asked me: “Is this the customer service they are trained to provide?”

    Man. Something about that really ticked me off. I ended up telling him that lifeguards don’t give customer service. They’re there to save lives, and to make sure everyone in the pool is safe. Furthermore, we are a publicly run facility. We are trained to represent the city, and part of that is being in a public facing position and thus customer service, but it really means protecting the city and their interests. That means not letting under 8 year olds drown.

    He wouldn’t let me finish any of my sentences, either. I ended up holding up both my hands and saying “Either you let me finish my sentences, or I can not help you.” I’ve never in my life spoken to anyone like that, never mind a customer! I gave him a card that had the direct line of our aquatics operations manager and then told him to talk to her.

    When I went to talk to the lifeguards in the back office, they told me he had LEFT HIS UNDER 8 CHILD IN THE DEEP POOL ALONE. The deep pool is FOUR FEET OF WATER. Not only that, this is the fourth week this has been an issue (part of being publicly run is we can’t just kick people out for no reason.) Then not only THAT, but the Dad wasn’t even in any of the pools! He was in the viewing area! The lifeguard in question yelled at the DAD, not the kid.

    I’ve dealt with a lot of strange and angry people over the years, but this by far was the most infuriating. I once had a lady flip her full grocery cart over because we didn’t have icing sugar when I worked at a grocery store. This guy made me way angrier. How do you get mad at someone for making sure your kid doesn’t DROWN.

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Wow. Wow wow wow. I’ve seen parents tell their children “The lifeguard is mean and won’t let us have fun.” I believe it, but can’t understand it. I

      My mom once walked along a beach at Lake Tahoe and saw a toddler that had fallen face-first into the water, but the parents hadn’t noticed. She rushed over and picked the toddler up–who of course then began screaming at the top of its lungs. The parents flipped out at my mother and wouldn’t even let her explain what had happened.

    2. Aurion*

      I know a lot of our lifeguards are teenagers and young adults, and I always think it’s one of the hardest “service” jobs out there, especially for that age bracket. Not only do you have to have the downsides of a public-facing job, you’re also responsible for saving people’s lives.

      I’m a decent swimmer (not amazing, just decent) and once when I was swimming laps my leg cramped really badly–I had to grab the rope. It lasted maybe five seconds, I was in no danger of drowning (I only flailed a little), and yet a lifeguard was already yelling over to see if I was okay. That kind of constant vigilance must be exhausting.

      I hope that man is ashamed of himself later.

      1. RKB*

        Our lifeguards are really well trained, because we get audited and all that stuff. The majority of them do this as a full time job, and the ones who are part-timers are often involved in other professions that are similar, like being a paramedic, firefighter, etc. One is even a nurse. I trust them completely! None of them even look young, and they totally whooped the front desk’s butts when we did a water polo challenge, and we are no slouches.

        They take their jobs seriously. It’s a shame this customer doesn’t recognize that.

    3. ZSD*

      The lifeguard story is terrible, but the one about the lady flipping her cart made me chuckle. I’m sure it was unpleasant at the time, but it’s just such a ridiculous reaction that it’s funny. “No ICING SUGAR?! GRRRRR!”

      1. RKB*

        Oh, it was funny, even at the time! The story has a bit more to it.

        It was Christmas Eve Eve (so the 23rd) and of course, we were emptied out of a lot of things, because our stockers were off for… Christmas… and because well, people want to buy things to do during the holidays with their family!

        When the customer in question asked floor staff where the icing sugar was, she was told we were out, but because there’s so many grocery stores within a kilometre — seriously, there were like, 5 major supermarkets, 3 smaller stores, a bunch of gas stations, a Dollar Store, a niche baking shop, etc. — she could try somewhere else. Which to me is helpful advice.

        The customer didn’t think so and marched her FULL TO THE BRIM cart up to the front desk (I was a customer service girl at the time) and told me that BECAUSE we had told her to shop somewhere else, she was going to, and she was going to leave her cart right there!

        I told her that was fine (I was a 19 year old working on Christmas Eve Eve… I really didn’t care.) and I think she didn’t think I gave enough of a reaction, because she glared at me, and then just shoved her cart over and stomped out.

        The funniest part was that our carts required a $1 coin (Canada) to operate, and she had one in the cart. About two minutes later she marched back and asked for her dollar back. I was surveying the cracked egg shells and I just laughed and told her no, the dollar will go towards damages. She just left again.

        I bet she was just super stressed about the holidays or something, but it remains my favourite customer service story.

    4. justsomeone*

      I feel for you. I worked as front desk/cashier of our local pool (way less nice than yours) and HOLY BANANAS are some people entitled. How dare our lifeguards tell kids to walk instead of run. How dare I turn someone away because we are at capacity. I had one lady take my picture and tell me her lawyer husband was going to sue me because I wouldn’t let her in when we were at capacity. I laughed in her face and told her good luck.

    5. Pwyll*

      I’m sorry, I don’t envy you. Parents at pools and recreation places are seriously insane. Once a whole bunch of us went swimming. 5 of the 8 of our group were lifeguards at other pools, or had been previously. One of our friends suddenly starting having a seizure in the deep end. The others sprung into action, as did the actual lifeguard for the facility. They cleared the water so the lifeguards could focus on our friend (and it’s apparently policy any time an ambulance is called).

      Parents howled for at least an hour. How DARE they pull children out of the pool. When can we get our money back for this inconvenience? Why didn’t the lifeguard prevent the injury (a seizure, mind you)? How dare the lifeguard touch her child (to stop him from going back into the water). Seriously, people are crazy.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      As a former lifeguard, those situations are SO common. Some parents are absolutely horrible. Sounds like the lifeguard absolutely did the right thing.

      FWIW, you might consider implementing a policy along the lines of “Lifeguards are empowered to make decisions regarding any activity taking place in the pool area.” We had something like that and it was so helpful in letting parents know that we could call out any unsafe activity with our own authority.

      1. RKB*

        Oh, that’s exactly the policy. No one answers to me, here. The lifeguards are in charge of the pool, the arena attendants are in charge of the rink, the fitness monitors are in charge of the workout sections, and we have a gym monitor who is in charge of the open court. If the gym monitor wants to kick you out, don’t come whining to me. I don’t spend 8 hours monitoring the court. I don’t know why they chose to make the decision, but I trust they didn’t make it lightly.

        It’s obvious that the guy felt unheard and didn’t want to bring it up to the lifeguard, so he came to us. Grr.

  102. Birdie*

    Ugh today while getting my coffee I saw a male coworker and let him know I sent him an important skype message yesterday which I would need an answer to by today and his response was “What is it? A sext?”… in front of several other male coworkers. I felt very embarrassed but just said “No, it’s about …insert work topic..”. None of the other men laughed but nobody even looked shocked.

    What the hell?!

    1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Ugh. I know it’s hard to think of a good response when someone says something that creepy, but if he does it again, try responding with “wow, what an inappropriate thing to say.”

    3. Dawn*

      “Wow that was inappropriate and rude! You must be so embarrassed!” Then let the uncomfortable awkward silence just stretch… out… while you grin maniacally.

      Or at least that’s what I imagine I’d do…

        1. Dawn*

          Got that from a comment over at Captian Awkward and immediately LOVED it! The commenter said she had never had anyone be able to do anything other than sputter after she dropped that truth bomb.

          1. justsomeone*

            Oh My Lanta that’s amazing. I’m going to put that in my pocket and use it. Is it bad that I’m hoping for someone to say something just so I can use that retort.

  103. Rebecca*

    I got a job offer! Better pay, about 10 minutes from my house, better benefits, except less vacation time for the first 5 years. I am ready to accept the verbal offer, after I review the full package sent by HR. OMGOMGOMG!! Now I know what Imposter Syndrome feels like. They want me? Really? I’m cleaning up my work computer, my desk is nearly empty, and I’m starting to document things so when I give notice, I can make a smooth transition.

    Thank you, AAM, I truly believe without this blog and advice, I would not be typing these words today. I hope next Friday I can post a new, positive update.

  104. YHR*

    Here’s my current situation. I’d love to hear any advice you have.

    Since graduating from law school two years ago, I have only done contract work (some of which has been pretty long term). A few months ago, I started a contract to hire position at a small teapot law firm. The contract period was for 30 hours a week but I was under the impression that if I was hired after the contract period it would be full time salaried. Part way through the contract, my boss said she thought would be keeping the position at 30 hours a week. I said that I wasn’t sure if I could make that work (despite having corporate clients the pay is crap, there are no benefits, and I would make more working in legal aid) but that I’d be willing to try if I could work four days a week and have a day to do other work. I also said that I’d want to stay if the position was full time. She agreed that we could do a 35 hour a week trial period through the end of the year starting next week.

    I was under the impression that this would continue to be a contract position through the end of the year. However, I found out on wednesday that I’m being added to payroll. Have I reached job hopping/bridge burning territory if I leave now? Will I if I leave after January? I’m reasonably content in the position (I like my coworkers and the work for the most part), but long term I want to work in rice sculpture policy now teapot law. Though my other contract work involved rice sculpture law and policy, teapot law isn’t that closely related. Thanks!

  105. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

    Y’all! I need your help!

    I’m starting a new job in 2 weeks – I was asked to take over a team that has been suffering with terrible, nonexistant management. Both the current manager (who I’ll be replacing) and his boss are being replaced.

    So I’m going into a team that has had virtually no leadership. I talked to a couple people I know on the team and what they described was awful – the manager doesn’t communicate anything, doesn’t attend meetings, doesn’t tell them what their tasks are (they find out when they’re overdue), doesn’t tell them when he’ll be on vacation, etc. It sounds awful.

    So I was asked to go in and fix things. Fine. But what I want to know is – if you’ve had absentee/ineffective managers, what do you want from a new manager right off the bat? I want to assure them that I’m going to help them and things are going to get better, but I need to show some results quickly. What would you want to see first?

    Second – there’s a senior-ish person on the team who will be my deputy. He’s also ineffective, and he’s staying. So I need to hold his feet to the fire and make sure he knows that I’m holding him accountable. Should I go in giving him a completely blank slate, laying out clear expectations and then hold him to them, or should I tell him that I’ve already heard a lot of concerns about him. I do know him already.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      On the second question, what about a combo — “here’s what I’ve been told, but I know you were working in less than ideal conditions. Here’s how I want you to operate going forward and if you can do that, it’s a fresh start as far as I’m concerned.”

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        Oooh I like that, thanks!

        I actually previously managed him but it’s when I was very new to management and wasn’t good at holding him accountable. I’m much more experienced now. He’s got 2 more weeks to slack and then he’s in for a rude awakening.

    2. ButFirstCoffee*

      I honestly thinking acknowledging my frustrations about the prior leadership would help. Assure me that I’m needed and appreciated on the team, and promise some kind of change. I am not saying insult the previous management, just say you want to try something different. It would make me feel like we are on the same page.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        ok thanks! So admit that I know there are issues, and that I want to improve things.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Definitely. Having been there and done that, I want to know that you see us as salvageable, and that you understand that our lack of performance was due to conditions beyond our control.

    3. Dawn*

      Right off the bat- group and individual meetings to talk about what they think is wrong and ways to improve stuff. Like in the first week or two. The people who work there know more than you do about what’s wrong and they probably have tons of ideas about how to fix it. Listen to them, listen to everyone equally (I’m talking hour long meetings probably), let people vent but more importantly show them that you, New Boss, are HEARING what they have to say. Then take that feedback and use it, along with group collaboration, to craft new processes that help make things better.

      As for your deputy, let them know from day 1 what you need from them and then hold them to it. Have consequences for stuff. Don’t treat him like that one kid that every teacher in elementary school hated before they even got him in class because they all gossiped. Give this guy a chance- I think a lot of times people can and do succeed or fail based on management, and that a lot of people who are lax can do really well if they’re managed correctly.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        OK thanks – I’ll definitely do the 1-on-1 and group sit downs. And I’ll try not to blame the deputy for stuff that happened before me, but he’s on a short leash.

      2. Is it Friday Yet?*

        I maybe wouldn’t go in treating the Deputy like he is ineffective. I would act like he’s going to be great. Maybe he was ineffective and terrible because of his manager.

          1. Dawn*

            Oh my god I just noticed your name change oh my godddddddd LOL!

            If you already know he’s not good, then I think just keep him on a short leash but also hold out hope that maybe he will step it up. Be sure to give him LOTS of instruction/encouragement/feedback so you can make sure you give him every chance to actually step it up, and also document the crap outta everything from day 1 so that if he doesn’t step up you have a long paper trail to point to when you let him go.

    4. Is it Friday Yet?*

      I’ve been in this situation with having a manager who is nonexistant, and when a new one comes in, it is very helpful and comforting if you ask about the current problems and what they would like to see change.

      You may think you know about ALL of the issues, but you’d be surprised.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        No, I actually know very few except that it’s apparently terrible there. :/

        1. Is it Friday Yet?*

          Well I am sure they are VERY excited about the change. I know I was when they got rid of my manager who was not communicating at all.

          1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

            This is what I’ve heard – that they’re excited I’m coming over. I know a couple people there and have been getting the scoop since I found out I was going. So that’s good in a way – at least I’m not following a perfect, beloved manager and everyone will hate me because I’m not her :)

            1. Is it Friday Yet?*

              Yup. The bar will be set pretty low. For me, I was ecstatic to have a new manager just doing normal things that a manager is supposed to be doing.

              1. Tau*

                My department is in such a state of confusion that when I was asked this week who’s managing me I had to stop a moment and go “…I honestly don’t know?” I would be SO EXCITED to have a new manager (who is actually, definitely, my manager) come in. So excited!

    5. Mephyle*

      It’s probably pretty clear what needs to change – all that bad stuff you described. And it is going to change, now that the do-nothing managers are out and you are there to fix it.
      As well as what people suggested below, it would be a good idea to systematically find out or clarify what the tasks/projects are the team is supposed to be doing. What are the priorities? What are the long-range and short-range things; the ongoing things and the occasional things? What has to be attended to right now, so that it doesn’t fall between the cracks? In other words, while attention is focused on diagnosing and fixing, it may be important to make sure that the work the team is supposed to do is also getting done.
      Maybe this was too obvious to mention, but I didn’t see it included in all the excellent advice above.

    6. Trillian*

      The first thing I’d want to see is that the new manager is prepared, able and empowered (by upper management) to deal with any toxic personalities in the team. That they’re prepared and have backing to stop bullying, harrassment and backstabbing. That they’re not going to give one more chance to someone who has had ever so many chances already.

      1. Observer*

        That’s good. But it doesn’t sound like these were the real issues. Lack of communications seem like a much bigger issue in this case.

    7. Observer*

      The meetings are a great idea. Also, lots and lots of communications. Like once a week a rundown of the high points of the prior week, and a lists of what’s on schedule for the next week. And additional bulletins as appropriate. A calendar with deadlines. If you can put together a list of ongoing or existing projects with who is supposed to be working on them, I would email each group with something like “I see you are on Project X. Please update me on status, and what you need to keep up with progress.”

      Your calendar should be accessible enough that people at work can check if they can make an appointment. (At work we use Outlook on an Exchange server, so if I need to make an appointment with my boss in the look I can see if he’s going to be available, although I have no idea of what he’s doing during a time period that is blocked off.)

  106. Is it Friday Yet?*

    I work in a very small office (approximately 20 people). There are about 4 departments with anywhere from 2 – 5 people in each. The culture is very lax. I do not have a manager. The owner would be considered my manager, but no one receives annual reviews or things of that nature. Things are pretty loosey goosey. We often joke that our office is a lot like the television show The Office. The owner has a lot of similarities to Michael Scott.

    I have been here a little over a year now. I came from the corporate world, and initially I was frustrated that things were not more organized. There is no HR department and no one to go to besides the owner if you are experiencing a problem with a co-worker. (The owner HATES drama of any kind, so this is not an option. Although, I am really not the type to involve a manager in such matters unless it is absolutely necessary).

    As I mentioned, initially I was frustrated by this culture, but lately I’ve found that it seems to work better than the corporate world. I feel closer to my co-workers than I ever have at any of my previous positions. Sometimes we bicker and get really angry at each other. I’ve seen some emails that I never would have imagined seeing in the corporate world! Wow. It can get ugly. But we always resolve things ourselves (often within the same day) and become closer than before.

    I’m just curious if anyone else has had this experience working in a small office? In the first couple of months, I hated it and thought it was not going to work for me long term, but now my co-workers are like a family to me.

    There is something nice about being able to say the things you wish you could say to your co-workers that you never could before in a corporate environment.

    1. Dawn*

      I, too, came from a much larger corporate office and now work in a company that has about 30 people total. I have absolutely had to adjust to some things but ultimately have realized that you can’t manage 30 people the same way you manage 3000. Of course, there’s stuff that should be different, or processes that should be more efficient, or a better way for management (the owners) to do things, but that’s true at every single company including people who are self-employed!

      Six months into this job I wasn’t sure how long I’d want to stick around. A year into this job I HATED IT and desperately wanted to leave. Now, a year and a half in, I’m thinking yeah, I can stick around for quite a while as long as I keep getting interesting things to do! It took me a long time to get used to the small company way of doing things (no HR, no Office Manager, owners do way more than they should because this company is their baby) but now that I’ve gotten used to it, I kinda like it!

      1. Is it Friday Yet?*

        It definitely took some getting used to! I really enjoy being able to take time off when I need it, and not have all of my PTO earned by the minute. It’s nice that things like that are not as stringent. I can ask to leave early or come in late some days and not get an ear full about needing to make that time up.

      2. Daisy Dukes*

        So…I’m the opposite. I’m currently in a 15 person company, and going to a 1,000 person company. Any advice?

        1. Is it Friday Yet?*

          Every company is different, but I would expect the larger company to have a lot more structure than a smaller one. With my current small company, I find that there are a lot of grey areas, and sometimes it is hard to find the answer about insurance, 401K, etc. (I find it eventually. It’s just not as organized.) With a larger company, I’d expect that they have a dedicated person or team for addressing such matters, and you’ll likely have an onboarding or training that is more structured than a smaller company.

        2. Dawn*

          Be nice to EVERYONE. Seriously, say hi to everyone you see in the break room, put on your happy face, make chit chat. Compliment someone’s sweater or tie or whatever. Take the long walk to the bathroom instead of the short walk. Bigger company means more visibility BUT much less personal time with everyone so you have to put your best foot forward every day that you can because there’s a lot more “first impressions”. With a small company you end up knowing everyone really well and they know you for YOU- they know that you like tea over coffee, they remember that you don’t like bananas, everyone knows when you were out sick last week or that you’ve got a two-week vacation coming up. At a big company, 95% of the people you see every day know NOTHING about you, so if they see you stomping around with RBF then (unfortunately) they’ll start forming opinions of you that aren’t based in reality at all. For example, the last company I worked with had 1000ish people at HQ so I didn’t know everyone personally but I definitely saw people all the time over the course of working there. There was one employee who always looked absolutely, completely, totally PISSED AS ALL HELL every time I saw her. I don’t know anything about her other than that, but I do know that it absolutely colored my opinion of her.

          Also if you are in an open-plan office or have cubes, decorate your cube. Maybe not go all out with wood paneling and carpet but do have a plant and maybe a picture and a calendar, just something that sends out the signal “Hi, I’m happy to be here, this is My Desk.” It sends a good signal.

          Be EXTRA SUPER DUPER FRIENDLY to the receptionist, the IT people, and the mailroom. It’ll make your life so much easier.

          Don’t be offended if people aren’t as buddy-buddy as they were at your small company. It can be hard to make connections with co-workers at larger companies at first, especially if they’ve all worked together for a while and you’re The New Person. Just refer back to paragraph #1 and you’ll make work friends eventually.

          1. Dawn*

            OH and don’t get mad if it takes longer to do things at your new place than at your old- with more people at a company it can take longer to hunt people down to sign things, can take HR longer to do paperwork, can take longer to find a time when everyone’s free for a meeting… that’s just par for the course. It’s easy to be agile with 15 people because if you need to (for example) decide where to go for the company holiday party you can just get everyone in a room and have a show of hands. With 1K people it can be harder to be agile.

            ON the flip side tho, in a large established company, there’s more of a cushion to (as Miss Frizzle says) Take Chances and Make Mistakes, so your immediate department might be very agile and willing to go out on a limb a little bit because the company can handle it if things don’t work out the first time. My last company I was on a team of 7 and we were extradupertight and it was AWESOME. God I miss that team (don’t really miss the company or the work tho!)

            1. Daisy Dukes*

              Dawn, I know I’ve thanked you a million times but thank you again :) I appreciate you being so thorough and open about your experiences!

        3. Rusty Shackelford*

          If the company doesn’t have a policy against it, assume that anyone you talk to may be related to/sleeping with anybody else in the company. Be very diplomatic. :-)

    2. the_scientist*

      I did the reverse: moved from a small office to a much larger, more corporate office.

      Things I really liked about the small office: I had to do a little bit of everything, and take on high-level tasks that I NEVER would have gotten to do as an entry-level employee in a larger organization. There was less bureaucracy and fewer hoops to jump through to get things done. I was able to work independently and problem-solve on my own. I loved my coworkers and we all had a lot in common. We were also really personally invested in the work and supportive of one another personally (a lot of big life things happened to coworkers in the 1.5 years that I worked at that office).

      Cons to the small office, that I found were resolved in a bigger organization: there was no real accountability for management, because they didn’t really report to anyone. I had to do a lot of weird and random tasks that took away from the substantive work I should have been doing- like spending probably three full business days trying to figure out who to contact to get our confidential document bin taken for shredding, and how to pay for it. Our infrastructure was a disaster- ancient, hulking computers, no VPN access, no company laptops, not enough web cams to effectively videoconference (essential for our work), spotty access to shared drives, people would get trapped in the building elevators at least once a week, when we moved in to a new space, 1/2 the offices smelled like pee.

      Finally, while a big organization can be rigid, inflexible and slow to change, my small company didn’t have a work plan or road map…..so I’d often pour a lot of time and energy into projects that would be abandoned, which was frustrating. At my current, large organization, I have an idea of major projects coming up, even if that means less spontaneity in taking on new things.

      1. Is it Friday Yet?*

        I definitely relate on a lot of those pros and cons. I’ve been able to make decisions on which vendor to hire for key projects which I would never be able to do at a larger company, but I also have some admin related tasks on occasion which I would not have at a bigger company.

        Luckily, we do not have the same struggle with technology. The owner is willing to purchase whatever we need, so that is refreshing.

    3. AliceBD*

      At my current company I kinda feel like I have the best of both worlds! It’s the biggest company I’ve ever worked for — thousands of people worldwide. But most of them are in manufacturing in other countries, or in small offices for individual countries (5 people in this country, 10 people in that one sort of thing). There are only about 100 in my office, and we’re the headquarters for this region and the largest office outside of the overall HQ. As a company we make several different but things, and I do marketing for a particular product line. It’s very well known within the market for it, but we have very few people running this side of the business, and lots of the people I think of as being part of the team for this product line are actually shared resources for another part of the business as well. I get to do job activities I wouldn’t necessarily get to do at some large organizations (I’m the person who answers the social media questions, but I also order products to be sent to people for giveaways, and placed thousands of dollars worth of ads this week and can take initiatives on marketing campaigns), but by being part of a larger corporation we also have standardized HR procedures, good insurance, etc.

      But even going from a small, 10 person business that I worked most school breaks during college where everyone knew everyone else’s business (we were all women, so we discussed some personal matters that wouldn’t necessarily get discussed in a mixed-gender workplace) to a 200 person growing company for another position in college was a big change.

  107. JKB204*

    Presented a big meeting yesterday and feeling pretty stoked! I was invited because a coworker, who is senior to me, decided he couldn’t attend and told the group I would attend. He gave me no background and I only had an hour to put together an entire presentation based on vague directions, and I was really sweating it the night before!

    The admin for the group I was presenting to was AWESOME and I asked her a bunch of questions about format and expectations and she really helped give me some context, and when I got there the head honcho guy remembered me from an earlier meeting and was super positive and gave me a really nice introduction. Presentation went well, had a lot of good questions and afterwards a bunch of people came up to get my contact info and ask follow up questions.

    It felt really nice, like all my efforts at relationship building and getting to understand the client’s needs is working. And I learned, too, that you can’t underestimate how awesome it is to become friendly with the administrative assistants- they know everything.

  108. ButFirstCoffee*

    I could use advice on helping my dad with his job search. ANY input would be so much appreciated.
    My dad was an actuary for over 20 years, so he has never applied to a job, as he was recruited for this position. When that company was bought out, he left that line of work and took some time off to return to school. But he’s ready to go back to work, but doesn’t want to be an actuary again.
    I have helped him find financial analyst jobs to apply to, but no luck there. We have also tried investment and employee benefit positions.
    What other kinds of positions would he be qualified for that we aren’t tried? Happy to show resume information to anyone interested in giving feedback.

    I’ve hit a wall, no luck for so long and I want to help, as he is also very frustrated now.

    1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Have you looked over his resume and cover letter and held it to Alison’s standards? If he’s new to job hunting, he might still be bringing in some dated views on resumes, like including an objective or other faux pas.

      So I would start there. Has he gotten any interviews?

      1. ButFirstCoffee*

        I put everything in bullet points, shortened and made it more readable, focused more on accomplishments…I think maybe the resume issue is knowing how to make the skills appear transferable when actuary is SUCH a specific field, and maybe the summary statement could be better?

        He has had only 2 interviews in several months. I think part of the problem is also fear about salary because he worked his way up as an actuary. I do not know how to advise him to qualm these fears early on without talking about money too soon?

        1. fposte*

          I don’t know the relevant fields, but it’s almost always hard for somebody with transferrable skills to compete with somebody with native skills; then throw in his being out of the workforce for a bit and I’m no surprised he’s finding it tough.

          Maybe somebody in appropriate fields will know more, but I’m wondering if he’d have better luck if he found actuarial work again for a couple of years and then tried to move into a new field.

          1. ButFirstCoffee*

            Yeah, I will try to suggest this again, he just really believes that he can’t do the work anymore stress-wise. So I don’t know.

            1. fposte*

              Ah, that’s more significant than just seeking greener pastures. Unfortunately, I don’t know enough about the fields to say anything specific; I wish him–and you–good luck.

    2. Swimmergirl*

      Have you tried going to some networking events? You could also look up people in similar positions on LinkedIn and trying to get an informational interview. LinkedIn Premium is worth every penny!

    4. Tex*

      Big data and data mining are the buzz word these days and he definitely has the math skills. Maybe a company like Palantir if they have remote jobs? Ideas if he needs something locally – I have a friend who went into biostatistics (but she has a degree specifically in that field). Maybe another data related medical field job? Another friend is technically in a hybrid consulting/financial analyst role at a hospital, but her job is to crunch the numbers and analyze the cost effectiveness of various procedures/medical equipment/etc. in order to make recommendations for a hospital system’s best practices.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      Analyst jobs would definitely have been my first guess. What kind of company did he work in? Does that kind of company have non-actuary analysts? How about jobs (in that field or others) that interact a lot with actuaries and might benefit from someone who understands what actuaries do?

      How recently did he finish school? Does he have access to their career center? University career centers often have terrible advice about resumes/interviews/etc, but they do tend to have connections to local employers. If he has some ideas about what kinds of companies and positions he’s interested in, they could connect him.

      I’m pretty sure there are several posts on this site that touch on switching careers and how to use your cover letter to allay fears that you’ll have unrealistic salary expectations. Those could be useful if you haven’t seen them yet. This is also where networking can come in handy–someone he knows could refer him to someone else and tell them he’s looking for a lower-stress job and is okay with a lower salary than he used to make.

    6. Chaordic One*

      The recommendations about the cover letter and resume are on target and worth pursuing (especially about following Alison’s advice).

      Maybe I’m totally off-base here, but is he at all interested in “financial planning?”

    7. Christopher Tracy*

      Insurance companies would love to hire someone with his skills either as an actuary, underwriter, or in a predictive analytics role doing predictive modeling for catastrophes.

  109. Coffee Ninja*

    I have to get a specific type of technical training for my new job (it’s directly related to one of my job duties, but they hired me without it). I found a great course, one evening a week for two weeks, but it was canceled due to low enrollment.

    Most of the other courses in our area are a semester-long course at one of the local community colleges, so they’d be a full day a week or a half day two days a week for 15 weeks.

    I also have the option of technical schools, but there are very few that will let me take this one course. Most want me to take an entire degree program. The schools that have a standalone course are also a few days a week, or 2 or 3 nights a week for 1-2 months. I’m not willing to give up that many of my evenings.

    I found a course in another city about 1.5hrs away by train (Big Boss was ok with me looking for a class in this city, Boss and I hadn’t talked about it yet). I found one that’s 2 days a week for 4 weeks. With commute time, the hours would basically fit my current commute + workday, adding maybe 30 mins. I could do some work on the train. I think this class is advantageous because it’s quick, both in the least # of classes and I would have certification by the end of November instead of May.

    I’m obviously going to present all the options to my boss, but is the last option unreasonable? I’m scared to ask him! (I don’t know why, he’s super nice and probably the most reasonable boss I’ve ever had)

    1. FJ*

      Definitely ask, and especially if he is reasonable!
      You get the certification sooner, and your work disturbance is shorter in the long run, so why not?
      And, you didn’t mention it, but I hope they are helping pay for it!

  110. Seattlite*

    I have a phone interview in the middle of the work day on Monday. Anyone know of a quiet place in downtown Seattle to do it? I don’t have my own office and I typically walk or bus to work since I live a little over a mile away. Thanks!

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Would doing it in your car work? If it is a louder one, you could always roll down the windows and leave it off.

    2. Leatherwings*

      I don’t live in Seattle but I’ve found that coffee shops are usually fine – I’ll just mention to the interviewer that I’m in a coffee shop so please excuse any background noise.

    3. Menacia*

      How about a hotel lobby if one is near your office? Even an office lobby of a public building that does not get much foot traffic? I would recommend you use some type of noise canceling headphones so any background noises don’t disturb you. You can go to a coffee shop or perhaps a local park if the weather is nice. Good luck with the interview!

      1. Pwyll*

        Oooh, the hotel lobby one is a good idea. It wouldn’t even be strange to see someone milling around in the lobby on their phone.

    4. shep*

      I also wonder, if you do live close and/or have a car, could you drive that morning and take an extended lunch and just hop back home for the interview? Might be a little less stressful if that setup is convenient.

    5. Pwyll*

      The last time I did this I let them know I was outside and apologized in advance for any background noise, and I walked through a park. That way I wasn’t near loud car noises, but was still semi-private. I pace in telephone interviews anyway, so I figured it makes sense.

      Obviously wouldn’t work if you’re not near a park, or if the weather is bad, but that might be an option.

    6. Red Reader*

      I did a couple in the far end of the 3rd floor food court at Westlake Mall, but it’s been a few years since then, I left Seattle in 2012. I wonder if the central library might have study rooms you could book?

      1. Anonsie*

        According to their website, the Central Library doesn’t offer study rooms. You still might try calling the library and seeing if the staff have any suggestions for you. (They do have bookable meeting rooms. Perhaps they might let you slip into an unused one for your call?)

    7. LCL*

      If you are surrounded by highrise buildings you may be in luck. Many highrises have public space, like a lobby and an observation room. If you are in a highrise your building probably has one, find out where it is and don’t get seen by your manager.

    8. Trix*

      Hotel lobby could definitely work. I’d look at the Grand Hyatt on 7th between Pine and Pike or the Paramount on the corner of 8th and Pine.

      I think my top suggestion would be the City Centre Building (between 5th and 6th, and Pike and Union), lots of little out of the way chairs on several different floors. I’d probably suggest walking into one of the entrances on 5th Ave and poking around the first and second floors.

    9. Chaordic One*

      In office building where I worked, there was a phone booth on every floor. I went to the phone booth on the floor below my office and had a phone interview (in the phone booth) on my cell phone.

      1. Seattlite*

        My old office had that and it was great! Unfortunately, you need key card access to get to the rooms I know about. However, the building I work in now is primarily a condo building (with limited common space).

  111. shep*

    Writers, your opinions!

    I come from an MFA background and have done internships and contract editing, and pretty much every writer I know who’s published has gone the traditional Big Five route. For years, that’s always been my desired avenue as well, because I know there’s a LOT of work that goes into self-publishing, and I’m afraid of all of that being in my hands.

    But I’ve also being doing a lot of research about self-publishing, and it doesn’t have nearly as much a stigma as it did even a few short years ago. I know certain markets are going to fare much better on the e-book self-pub track, and some of those markets are ones in which I love to write.

    I’d like to go traditional for my YA books, but for my adult novels? Self-publishing is actually starting to look quite appealing. I also have an active YouTube follower community that often asks me about my writing, so I think if I were to write under a pen name for my adult novels, and use that community as a springboard, it would serve as sort of prefab marketing since I already have an audience of several thousand people. Not all of those people will buy, of course, but definitely more than if I’d just quietly launched, even among my alumni community.

    Thoughts, fellow writers?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I’ll chime in as someone who works in the big five–it definitely doesn’t have the stigma it had even a few years ago. There are a lot of services available to ease the process of self-publishing, but the biggest element that remains is you have to do all your own publicity/marketing. It’s fantastic that you already have an audience to work with, so I’d suggest doing all the research you can (a lot of successful self-published authors have written articles and posts about their hard-learned lessons) before launching a campaign.

      If you’re going to do everything yourself, I would still strongly, strongly encourage you to hire a freelance developmental editor, or at the very least, a professional copy editor ($300-500). Small typos and inconsistencies really bring down the perceived value in an otherwise well-written book.

      The great news is that big publishers take notice if you have successfully self-published (which means you have an established “platform,” as well as an understanding of marketing and readership engagement), and it can make pitching future books to agents a lot easier.

      Best of luck!

      1. shep*

        Thanks so much for your perspective! I would definitely want to invest in a copy editor for sure. As neurotic as I am about grammar and typos, something always invariably escapes me.

    2. all aboard the anon train*

      I agree with everything Isben Takes Tea wrote.

      I will say that depending on the type of fiction an author writes, there’s still some stigma against self-publishing, but it’s become pretty lax for genre fiction (sci-fi, fantasy, romance, etc.).

      Also, one thing that’s really helpful is reaching out to well-known reviewers or bloggers and giving them a free copy of your book in exchange for a review. That’s a great way to build an even larger audience beyond your followers. I have a friend who is a fairly well-known blogger for self-pub queer romance novels and she has readers who’ll read anything she writes about on her blog. Additionally, getting into a community of similar authors for your genre is another nice way to get a wider audience or promotion.

      Do a lot of research on self-pubbing, especially in regards to marketing and pricing. I know a lot of people go into self-publishing expecting to make a lot of money, but that’s not always the case. The same goes for people who price their books outside the norm for their genre and then wonder why no one is buying. But this is the case in traditional publishing as well (most of the authors I work with don’t make enough to write as a full-time career).

      Make sure you set money aside for any marketing you may need to do (some sites require fees if you want to place a promo ad or something) or any editing costs. Again, agreeing with Isben Takes Tea that you should seriously consider getting an editor before you publish anything. Whether it’s a proofreader to catch grammatical errors or a developmental editor to bring an outside view of plot, structure, and inconsistencies, it’s really helpful.

      1. shep*

        Yes, I’ve been a part of this field long enough to know that even traditional publishing is no guarantee to financial stability, let alone success. I’ve been resistant to self-publishing for years specifically because I felt like the realities of traditional publishing were midlist-don’t-quit-your-day-job-type things, so surely the realities of self-publishing were even more abysmal.

        Which is a long way of saying, yes! I agree that a lot of folks wear rose-tinted glasses in regard to both traditional and self-publishing tracks.

        And excellent suggestion about market pricing. I’ve been doing lots of research about how different authors use price schemes and limited promotions, etc. to great effect. It’s a bit overwhelming! Luckily, I have plenty of time to research. I’m still devoting most of my energies to a MS I hope to snag an agent with, and then AFTER that, I’d pick up a project for self-pub, which probably wouldn’t be ready for another year. (And all the while I’ll be researching frantically!)

    3. Manders*

      I’m strongly considering self-publishing the manuscript I’m working on, but–and this is a really big but for some people–I work in marketing, and doing the work of self-promotion with no direction from anyone else is something I’m both excited and realistic about.

      You sound like you’ve already got a decent audience built up, which is awesome. I recommend doing some financial research: how much of a “cut” of the list price will you get from each physical or digital sale? Do you want to be responsible for storing and shipping your own product, or do you want to go with a print-on-demand option? How much money have you got set aside for marketing? Do you want to table at cons? Do you want to reach out to cons as a panelist? What percentage of your profit will you devote to marketing? How many sales would you need just to break even with everything you spend getting the book ready for publication? How long do you think it will take to build up a decent backlist? What are the other books in your market selling for? What sales figures are reasonable to shoot for? How many review copies are you willing to give out? Which reviewers will you reach out to?

      If those seem like silly, basic questions, awesome! You are totally prepared to self publish. You’d be surprised, though, at how many people I’ve met who were totally gung-ho about self-publishing but didn’t understand the absolute basics of how books and money work.

      I also want to second Isben’s suggestion to hire an editor. You should also do some serious introspection about whether or not you’re capable of doing layout and cover art yourself, or whether it would pay off in the long run to have a professional do those things for you.

      1. Manders*

        I just remembered a few more questions worth asking yourself:
        * If you have an agent for the traditionally published books, will that agent also expect a cut of your profits from the self-published books? I’ve heard of this happening to hybrid authors!
        * What will you do if your publisher wants a right of first refusal?
        * If your traditionally published books go out of print, how long will you have to wait to get the rights back and put them up as a self-published edition?
        * Do you have an author website set up and ready to go? Does it have 1) An appropriate domain name and 2) Good analytics software, preferable Google Analytics, set up correctly? Are you going to maintain a blog on this site?

      2. shep*

        Oh man, I acted as a mentor via the Nanowrimo forums for a woman who was writing her first novel. She wanted to edit in December and self-publish in January.

        I’ve been querying, interning, and contract editing since 2008, and did an MFA in between, and I am STILL not sure that I’m ready to self-publish. I mean, even if I had a manuscript ready, it’s a daunting thought. I would definitely contract out the cover, definitely do e-book only unless by some dark magic the novel became WILDLY popular to allow for a POD service, and as you all of suggested, definitely hire a proofreader. I’m lucky that I have several writer-friends who read for me and act as developmental editors, but the rest, yes, lots of contracting!

        Re: that woman during Nano, I SO wanted to try to give her more information about publishing, but she seemed so blase about her decision to publish, and so naive, and Nano is about WRITING, so I let it go for fear it would’ve been utterly unsolicited advice and just not germane to the situation. Perhaps I should’ve done so anyway, but she knew SO little about how the book world worked that I was worried it would only serve to hurt her feelings and demoralize her during what should be a month of reckless writing fun.

        1. Manders*

          Some POD services do play nice with online booksellers, I think–if you’re on CreateSpace, I think you can get your book listed on Amazon like any other physical book. But I think you do have to give the book a pretty high list price in order to turn any profit at all, and there’s also more work involved in designing the back cover and doing layout and checking proofs and whatnot. And of course, a lot of writers understandably don’t want to put all their eggs in Amazon’s basket.

          I wish I had a mentor as awesome as you! You sound incredibly experienced, I think you’re exactly the kind of person who can go into self-publishing and kick butt at it.

    4. Fact & Fiction*

      I definitely do believe those with an existing platform have better luck the self-publishing route, but others can get lucky with savvy, hard work, writing right thing at right time-/kinda like with “traditional” pubbing really. I have a few UF books pubbed by one of the big pubs that unfortunately didn’t “take off” so have self-pubbed a few other UF books I had collecting dust while my agent kept hunting. I didn’t market them so they’re just kind of there until I pub sequels to them.

      Which really seems to be the key with self-pubbing success: putting out multiple books relatively quickly (while maintaining quality) and pricing them well. In particular if writing series, the first book should be free at least temporarily if not permanently once you have others available. Run deals in earlier books when a later book comes out.

      Professional covers and editing are also key. Research research research and pay attention to what those who have success advise. Good luck!

    5. DevManager*

      It’s a great point @Manders made about reaching out to conventions – I do programming for a nearly 50 year old sf&f convention in the Denver area and we’re generally good about finding a slot or two on panels for authors that approach us, if they’re in the right genre, and flexible about what they’ll talk about. I’d say though that it’s best to do that after you have one or two things published. Depending on your area there might be a writer’s group worth reaching out to/joining as well – Pikes Peak here in CO is very active and has a strong self-publishing contingent.

    6. Candi*

      I’ve found kriswrites has fantastic advice for the indie publisher, from someone who has been on both sides of the publishing table and published traditional, indie, and hybrid. Her links are incredibly useful as well.

      I especially like her advice that paying a one-time fee, lump sum or payment plan, beats paying a percentage for an ill-defined length of time for any service, from cover illustration to contract lawyer fees.

      (And I, um, might have mentioned AAM in the comments over there a few weeks ago.) :D

  112. Jennifer*

    Our computer system is down this morning! No work for everybody! It’s a delight.

    In other news, I have had some kind of shocking surprise every day this week, like “Oh, btw, you’re going to be in charge of ALL of X all by yourself, pretty much without help, AND we’re making you do something usually only supervisors would do.” What the heck.

  113. Menacia*

    Okay, so here is my dilemma, I happen to be someone who can be given a task (learn an application, create a process) and run with it. Now my other coworkers don’t seem to have this skill so guess who is requested to also document everything I have learned (through my hard work and perseverance) so others can sit back and benefit from it? To me, this is such a time sink and I don’t want to do it because the times when I’ve created instructions, no one ever follows them. It’s frustrating that I’m the only one who takes the initiative (everyone else seems to falter when given tasks or projects) so it’s up to me to do clean up. I would love to push back on my manager when she asks me to document everything I do/know.

    I have been seriously considering moving on from this job because I never feel like I will be the same page as the rest of my coworkers because I care too much about doing a good job. There are other issues as well, the commute is awful, my manager and I have completely different communication styles, and I’m just burned out. It also feels like I’m alone in what I do because we have few resources for many different applications, so I’m the lone support person for about 5 (complex) applications. It would be nice to be on a team where I could bounce ideas off of others and as well as collaborate.

    I’m going to start putting together my resume, but I’ve not had to look for a new job in over 12 years, so I’m starting from scratch. I would love to purchase Alison’s book but it looks like PayPal is the only option, and I don’t use PayPal. Does anyone have any other recommendations for starting a job search mid-career (and when you’re over 50)?

    1. Dawn*

      I have Alison’s book and love it, but if you don’t want to use PayPal it is basically a round-up of the years and years of good advice that’s been given on this site so if you search the archives you can get great info that way.

      Also, being the person who documents stuff is a GOOD thing, resume and job search wise! That absolutely shows initiative and yeah, it can be really disheartening when it feels like you’re the only one who gives a damn about doing your job well BUT no one asks the low performer to document how to do stuff. Take that to heart!

      1. Menacia*

        Hi Dawn, part of my conundrum about starting the search process is how to craft a resume that draws a clear picture to a hiring manager what I’ve accomplished and how that experience will translate into the available position. Even though I’m an introvert, I have a great deal of confidence in myself and what I can bring to the table, so interviewing has never been a problem. I absolutely LOVE this board and have read many of the archives and will keep doing so to for additional ideas. Thanks for the suggestion!

        1. Dawn*

          Yeah, I find it’s always super intimidating to sit down and write a resume so I feel ya on trying to craft a good resume!

          Some things that help me a lot:
          – Remembering that there is no such thing as ~*A PERFECT RESUME*~ Often I’ll get caught up in trying to make it PERFECT and then I let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
          – Looking hard at the job description and then thinking back to what all I have done at a job that would highlight what they’re looking for. For example, if I was going to go to a new job I’d want to go into Operations Management, so one requirement might be something like “evaluates vendors, sets up vendor meetings, monitors vendor relationships, etc.” I’ve done loads and loads of that at my current job, so that would get me thinking about how to craft a good bullet point that shows off my vendor management skills at my current job.
          – Crafting my resume bullet point by bullet point, THEN trying to make into a complete resume. I have one “catch all” resume that has bullet points for every single thing I have ever done at every job I have had in the last 7 years. When it comes time to craft a customized resume, I can pull bullet points from that “Master Resume” and then re-word as needed/wanted. It also means I don’t have to try and remember everything I did at every job every time I need to write up a new resume!
          -Reminding myself early and often that this resume is not the end of the world, that this job is not the last job in the world, and that working myself up into a frenzy about this particular resume is not a productive use of my time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but I have a real hard time seeing the forest for the trees and get stressed about trying to make it PERFECT (see point #1)

    2. Jillociraptor*

      I think it is reasonable to push back at least a bit on your manager on the documentation. You could tell her that in your experience, colleagues are not utilizing the documentation, and ask for advice and support on making sure the information is actually utilized by your team. You probably do need to move on in order to get the kind of collaboration that you’re looking for, but in your current role, I think you’re well within your rights to push back on time-sucking activities that don’t actually help the team (the latter clause is critical–if anyone were using the documentation, that’d be another thing), and also not to jump to fix everything that other employees do wrong. That’s really enabling their poor performance and allowing your manager to avoid dealing with the real issues (on your back and with your time).

      1. Menacia*

        Yes! I really think I am just enabling them to continue with their poor work ethic and perfomance. I feel, I were not here, these issues would be so much clearer to my manager that there are huge issues. But she also thinks that having a body in a seat is better than no body at all. Because I’m making sure that things don’t fall through the cracks, it’s just status quo to them. I have started to “not notice” things so that I’m not always on the hook to fix them…but I don’t want that to come back to bite me either.

    3. N.J.*

      Do you have any networking contacts? Anyone you used to work with who now works somewhere else? An influential linked in network? Former bosses now working somewhere you want to go? Connections through volunteering or community organizations? Any ties to professional organizations in your area of expertise?

      1. Menacia*

        Hi, networking has never been my forte, I’m a heads down, nose the grindstone introvert. I have been looking for volunteer opportunities to get me out of my shell, so hoping for some leads there. I’m a member of a couple of professional organizations, but don’t get too involved with them. I am working now with someone (as part of a project) who does what I do for a consulting company. I am hoping to get an opportunity to pick her brain while we’re doing knowledge transfer in a few weeks, we’ve butted heads a few times (probably because we’re very similar but did not know one another well enough to realize we were comrades in arms). Now that we’re more comfortable with each other, and can see we both want to do a good job (and she does not want to leave me a mess to clean up), I think we’ll do just fine. From my years of working here, I have this knee-jerk reaction to anyone new I’m assigned to work with that they will suck…not good!

        1. N.J.*

          She sounds like a good connection,cultivating a relationship with her could be promising! I’m an extrovert, to a point, and find networking in the typical sense, such as attending a networking event, very hard to do. If you can continue to identify people in your professional circle, such as this consultant, to connect with and let them know you are job searching and would like to pick their brain or catch up over coffee or something, that could bear fruit.

    4. ArtK*

      Asking you to document what you know is not unreasonable at all. Asking you to learn something new and document it is also just fine. I wouldn’t push back on your boss on that topic at all — it will make you look very bad. I get the frustration when you do the documentation and then nobody follows it, but that’s not your problem to deal with. That’s the bosses problem.

      By stepping in and taking care of things (implied in your post) when others drop the ball is not helping them, your boss, or yourself. I get the motivation — I hate to see stuff not getting done. Stop doing that. The entire group has become dependent on you. The boss is trying to deal with this by having you document but is dropping the ball in not making people *use* the documentation, and in not making people do their job. You’ve been making that *your* problem when it’s your boss’ problem. Stop doing it and let it be the boss’ problem.

      No recommendations on the job search, although I suspect I’ll be facing the same thing not too long from now — I’m 58 and the company is on shaky ground. Good luck!

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I want to amend my above comment in light of this one. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask someone to be involved in knowledge transfer of what they learn, but the method of transmission needs to be determined by balancing the time it takes to prepare something versus the time it will actually save to have the documentation. So I agree that it’s not appropriate to push back on the idea that you should document what you know, the OP and their manager need to talk about how much time OP is spending on documentation and whether that’s actually appropriate to the value of the knowledge/value of documenting the knowledge. It sounds like there’s a disconnect for the OP and manager on this — the manager seems to think the documentation is serving a purpose it’s not serving in actuality.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You don’t need a PayPal account to buy it — one of the options is just using a credit card (although it’s processed through PayPal, just minus a personal account there).

    1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      So….I once gained 10 pounds during a summer in college, because I was an office temp and spent the summer working in a building department of a small town. Everyone I worked with was quite large, and I found out why. All the builders who wanted to get their plans approved quickly would drop off a box of donuts with their building proposals, so there were constantly tons of donuts around. That was a fat, fat summer.

    2. Candi*

      “writing a resume with all the right keywords, the best information about yourself, and just enough exaggeration is already a major obstacle standing between you and an exciting new job. ”

      … I. am. cringing.

  115. Leatherwings*

    Looking for some mindset advice today! I was laid off a few weeks ago and have been intensively job searching. I managed to get 10 interviews lined up this week including a couple second rounds, which is sort of a ridiculous number but I’m hopeful one of them will turn into an offer a few weeks down the line.

    My issue is that I end up feeling really crappy at the end of each day – I start the day with a few interviews lined up and then once I get through them I end up feeling sort of deflated and worry all my opportunities are running dry.

    Any advice/commiseration encouraged.

    1. ButFirstCoffee*

      Scheduling too many interviews in one day always wears me out, so hopefully they are spread out. Maybe you are just really pushing yourself. That is an IMPRESSIVE amount of interviews, especially after only a few weeks. You are doing the best you can. Take time for yourself and do something fun. Good luck!

    2. Pwyll*

      One thing I did that helped me, for some reason, was to convince myself that interviewing was my job right now. I’d try to schedule interviews for the afternoon. I’d wake up, do normal morning things, and apply to some jobs. Then, when I finished interviewing for the day, I’d go home and make a point to act the way I would after having been at work all day, and remind myself that I accomplished my “work objectives” for the day by filing x applications and doing my interview. I’m not sure why, but it helped.

    3. esra (also a Canadian)*

      That is a crazy amount of interviews. I had five this week and I feel totally pooped.

      Something that really helped me is just to realize when you have the deflated (or high!) feelings, it’s not really a sign of anything. I think we look for secret meanings and gut feelings, when really it’s just trying to find more control in a situation where you don’t have much. For me, I try to focus less on the long-term getting the job, and more on the fact that at least a lot of places are showing interest.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I can relate. I feel really drained and exhausted after I have an interview. OTOH, I commend you for searching so intensely and having so many interviews lined up in a single week. (I live a small town in a rural area and feel lucky if I can get 1 or 2 interviews in a single week. I’m also conducting a long-distance job search, but haven’t had too much luck so far.)

      Sometimes, I will treat myself by going to Starbucks after an interview. When I get home, I change out of my professional clothes right away and write down information about the interview and how I felt about it. I might write out my thank you letter. Then, I take a nap. Or if it is late, have dinner and then go to bed early. (This might not be all that helpful.)

  116. Overeducated*

    Tricky situation here. Any thoughts on whether and how to approach it?

    I started a job last month. My boss told me work hours were 8 hours plus 30 minutes for lunch on a regular schedule (9 or 10 hours plus lunch on compressed). I have been at work 8.5 hours, 5 days a week. Boss, who sits next to me, is here 10.5 for 4 days.

    The complication is that everyone else who has told me their work schedule so far is only here for 8 hours, not staying extra time for lunch. This is mostly people on another team but also my boss’s other subordinate, who sits down the hall, so that person’s comings and goings are not visible. The other team lead told them this was normal and the rationale was the 30 minute lunch was a combination of their 2 paid 15 minute breaks.

    My boss had said he isn’t sure whether our lunch is supposed to be an hour (30 minutes paid, 30 unpaid, as it was in my previous role in this org with an 8.5 hour day) or just half an hour, but since we all eat together, we all take only 30 minutes. It’s just my boss and I who work half an hour more to make up for that.

    I…kind of would rather not work extra if I don’t have to. It wouldn’t change my pay, and I am not worried about running afoul of HR, but it would allow me to work a compressed schedule of 9 hours a day and get a day off every other week (which would be awesome because I don’t have much leave). I can’T now because at 9.5 hours it would make day care pickup an issue.

    But I am new, and my schedule is at my boss’s discretion. So is there anything for me to do?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Ask! I don’t think it’s a ridiculous question. Also, it really is your boss’s responsibility to understand what the obligations and expectations are for paid vs. unpaid lunch so you can definitely ask them to get more details for you.

      1. Overeducated*

        I did ask, when one of the coworkers on the other team mentioned to the boss and i that she works 8-4! That’s when he said he wasn’t positive about lunch, he just thought HR had told him the work day was 8.5 hours for regular schedule when he started. I think he would probably be mildly pleased to hear he could leave earlier if he’s wrong, but I don’t feel like I can push it.

    2. Colette*

      Ask for what you want. “I know our normal schedule is 8 hours plus thirty minutes for lunch. Would it be possible to use my breaks for lunch and move to a 9 hour day with every second Monday off?”

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      How big is this company, and does it have an employee manual? Our employee manual describes the breaks given during the day and whether they are paid or unpaid. Ours specifically calls out two paid 15 min breaks, and one unpaid 30 min lunch.

  117. Irish Em*

    Today was the last day of my Networking/Interview Skills course and I’m sad. I loved that course, being around other jobseekers and feeling like I wasn’t alone in my flailing :(

    Good news, though, I had a Mock Interview yesterday and they gave me great feedback, really positive and with things that I can definitely work on! Yay!

    1. Collie*

      Have you considered MeetUp? It’s not as common in rural areas, but if you’re in suburbia/a city, there are lots of networking groups there. It’s less formal than a course, to be sure, but you might find the camaraderie there!

  118. EddieSherbert*

    So, I have been having trouble letting go of a conversation with my manager from a couple weeks ago. Basically, I have started hearing other departments prepping for the Dec 1 changes with the exempt threshold, and we hadn’t mentioned it all.

    So I asked them about it. And they responded with total surprise. They didn’t know I was under the $47K threshold. My manager had to ask me what I make! And it just got even more awkward from there. They even made a joke about “maybe we’ll just give you a $XXX raise,” when $XXX is unrealistic this year.

    So, I am upset about what I think was an inappropriate joke. And then I’m thinking about it more and their response makes me think this:

    1. The rest of department makes more than $47K (and one one doesn’t have a degree – which is fine but isn’t more money half the point of the degree?!)
    2. They thought I make more than $47K and I’m WELL below it. (So.. could I be making that?)
    3. And my manager is the same age and was promoted from the same position as me… same job description AND I took over most of their projects when they moved up. And they thought I make over $47K. Does that mean they made over $47K when they had the same job a year ago?

    So even though I love my work and team, I can’t help feeling a bit cheated and low-balled. I know I could have done a better job negotiating salary (bit into AAM after the change!), but I did do a bit and got more than the original offer. Should I feel offended? Should I get over it? What do I do either way to stop being upset?

    1. esra (also a Canadian)*

      When I found out a coworker with less experience was making more than me, I took it as a lesson to negotiate harder in the future. Like you, it was hard not to feel low-balled, but I made a stern effort to just take what I could from it and move forward. For me, that has meant looking at other opportunities that pay much better. For you, it sounds like it would be worth putting together the achievements/etc that should put you above and beyond the new legal requirement.

      Also, yea, that joke was crappy. Kudos for not responding snippily, as I may have done in the past :x

    2. Awkward_Giraffe*

      EddieSherbert, I empathize! I totally understand your upset feelings. I wish I had helpful advice, but I am in a similar situation myself. Except that I didn’t negotiate salary when I started because it was my first post-grad job and I didn’t realize I could do that.

      I work for a nonprofit and am pretty underpaid relative to my education and experience, but I love what I do so I make it work. I was supposed to get a raise last year, but because the company was doing poorly I did not. This year we did well, so at my annual review my boss said, “Maybe now we can give you a raise!”. I joked that I figured I’d get a raise this year because I know they don’t want to pay me overtime when I regularly work > 40 hours/week. Boss flat-out denied that I was under the $47k threshold – so convincingly that I started doubting myself and tabled the conversation so I could go doublecheck my paystubs! I’m definitely under the threshold. My company won’t adjust salaries until next year, and they haven’t committed to any numbers so I have no idea if I will actually get a raise/how much it will be.

      So now I have to have the awkward follow-up with my boss of “yes I am actually under this threshold. How would you like to proceed? Will I get a raise retroactively to December? Will you pay me overtime? Should I be careful not to work overtime?” It sucks because my company does the “we’re a FAMILY” thing and that makes discussions like these really uncomfortable.

    3. LawCat*

      I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I could not let such pay issues go while at my last job. There’s nothing wrong with feeling upset (I went through the gamut: upset at myself, employer, the bureaucratic system they relied on to avoid raising my pay, everything). I got another job and that’s what helped me to move on and get over it. If they’re underpaying you, you may realize a substantial raise by seeking employment elsewhere.

  119. Faith*

    I know that you don’t have to meet 100% of the criteria posted in the job description in order to apply for the job, but why do people apply when they do not meet a single criteria? If the job description says “we are looking for an experienced (5+ years) Chocolate teapot maker. Strong experience with bitter dark chocolate mandatory. Certification in teapot-making and experience in Teapots-r-US Software highly desirable”, why would you apply of it if you are fresh out of college and your only work experience is and internship in making tea cups out of milk and white chocolate (with some bitter dark chocolate crumbs mixed in)? Oh, and you are maybe just eligible to be certified and you’ve never touched the software in question? This covers about 90% of the resumes that we’ve receive this week. Do people really think that they have a shot? Is this the “fake it till you make it” philosophy? Even if you were hired for some reason, wouldn’t you just be setting yourself up for a failure?

    1. fposte*

      I think they’re hoping that the interview will make you love them enough to hire them for something that suits their credential level.

    2. ButFirstCoffee*

      I can see why you’re frustrated, but recent grads are often confused and desperate for a job. You could always reply and gently say they are better off applying to something that matches their experience. They might honestly believe it will work eventually.

    3. Dawn*

      It’s people just shotgunning resumes to any opening where they might even remotely possibly be qualified. Happens all the time when we post any IT-related opening- our “MUST have 5 years experience using [language]” gets tons of resumes where the person might have taken a class in [language] once in college.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        Seriously? I can’t imagine – it’s clear you’re going to need to use that language in the job and it’s not something you can really fake your way through.

    5. Rocky*

      This describes 1/3 to 1/2 of the applicants I get for any job. It’s super frustrating because it’s such a waste of everyone’s time. As far as I’ve inferred, people do this for one or more of the following reasons:

      – Need a job, any job, and apply to everything vaguely relevant in the hopes something will work out.
      – Really want to work here at Big Teapots because of our awesome benefits, and are applying for everything vaguely relevant
      – Already work at Big Teapots but want to transfer, and are applying for everything vaguely relevant
      – Think the qualifications are a big wish list describing a perfect unicorn candidate, not a real person
      – Believe that their individual qualities should make up for their lack of qualifications (I’ve received several cover letters from new graduates that say something like, “I know I don’t meet some of your required qualifications, but let me tell you why I’m a great candidate….”)

  120. Bend & Snap*

    I’ve posted before about being in the middle of a merger of two giant companies.

    Our team got announced today. My boss called me last night to give me a heads up.

    Basically I was on a sub team that was lean. They cut it in half.

    For the larger team, I had pitched myself hard for a higher level position, and found out last night that I’m one of the most junior people on the team, despite a good management track record, great measurable results and good performance reviews (+ 17 years in the field). I no longer have direct reports.

    It seems mostly due to circumstance–a lot of managers with small teams are in the same boat because the new company focuses on a flat organization, and I’m continuing to handle the same area, just by myself now. Do more with less, I suppose.

    But I’m so, so disappointed. It feels like a demotion and I do not feel valued or excited about doubling my workload with no positive change to my title or pay. I cried this morning (in private) and I’m not a crier.

    I guess I’m looking for advice on how to move past this and embrace the change, because right now it feels like a kick in the teeth.

    1. Dawn*

      Change is always scary! And hey, just because you’re going into this situation with no reports doesn’t mean it’ll be that way forever. Company mergers are always just huge big ole balls of confusion and scariness and weirdness even if you do make it through the merger without a pink slip.

      Give yourself permission to be upset and grieve for your lost position. This merger was completely out of your control and it’s OK to feel scared by that- not having control of your situation with regards to your job is absolutely scary, even if you are gonna continue to be employed.

      Who knows, maybe once the dust settles the merger will turn out to be a good thing for you- maybe they utilize your skills in a new unique way or you get picked to start a new team doing Cool Stuff because you’re the youngest of the management team and thus the most flexible. Maybe the job perks will be better or compensation will be better or who knows. Give it time, say 6 months or so, and give yourself permission to feel however you feel about it during that 6 months BUT agree no freaking out or quitting or whatever while the dust is still settling. Then after 6 months or whatever, seriously think about if it’s working out for you or not.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        I’m not the youngest! This is what is chapping my ass. I came in with a lot of management experience but joined as an Individual Contributor. So basically I have the same years of experience as the directors on the team, but screwed myself coming in as an IC, because I had to start at “manager” when I started managing people. And that’s where I am now except, no people.

    2. Anon 12*

      I had this happen once and ended up with a job that felt like a demotion. Turns out it was a placeholder because the manager thought I was super valuable but hadn’t figured out how to best deploy me in the new org. Within 90 days I was moved to a much more suitable position and goodness ensued. Do the best you can to add value where you have been placed but work with your manager as you would for all future career moves – here’s where I think I can add the most value, what path do you see for me to get there. Sorry about this, mergers can suck.

  121. Volunteering*

    This is a little different, but how do people find volunteer work? I’m looking around at local places, but they all have normal business hours, which means that the only way i could join was if I were unemployed.

    It seems like there’s not much around for someone who’d like to help out evenings or weekends, but maybe I’m not looking in the right places?

    1. Murphy*

      What kind of volunteer opportunities are you looking for? Animal shelters need volunteers on evenings and weekends. Lots of organizations need volunteers for events, which are often on weekends. Some need data entry, which could happen at any time.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Depends on your city, but a lot of tutoring/education places have opportunities after-hours, and often times so do community organizations (like ones that provide services to people in need). The latter often don’t advertise those opportunities because they reach out mostly to church groups and the like, but if you call them you could see what they have available.
      Also, Idealist sometimes posts useful things.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      I volunteer a lot in our community. The organizations themselves have normal business hours but the events they most likely need help with are usually in off hours. I would give them a call and see if there are weekend/evening things they might need you for.

      Some good examples from my past:
      *collect entry fees for one of the art-related non-profits in town when they have an opening or event
      *sit on development committee for new programs for another
      *coordinate kids play time for Family Meet and Greets for another
      *man check-in table at the scholarship competition for 1st non-profit
      *drop posters/post cards off at local shops advertising for events

      They appreciate any level of help and what I am doing usually requires no more than an email saying “can you do this event?” and me saying yes and showing up for a few hours. I’d suggest starting with one and going from there. The only exception is the Development Committee, I have to attend a lunch meeting once a week and do some evening research but that is it.

    4. FD*

      I got this idea here, but I love it! You can volunteer to transcribe documents online for the Smithsonian. You can do it when you have time, and all you have to do to get in is sign up. You can look through available projects and see what looks interesting to you.

    5. Temperance*

      Volunteermatch.org is a good place to start, but I do agree, lots of orgs want volunteers during the day during business hours.

      I also recommend asking for recs in your neighborhood Facebook group. There are always senior centers looking for help, as well as homeless shelters, but those aren’t really my cup of tea.

    6. ArtK*

      If they’re active in your area, check out Big Sunday (bigsunday.org). They have lots of one-off volunteer opportunities and not just on their massive day of volunteering.

      You may want to invert your search a bit. Instead of saying “where can I volunteer?” start with “what do I enjoy doing?” or “what community would I feel good about helping?” That may help you to focus in finding something.

      Do you like sports? Look for rec centers and recreational leagues. I volunteer as an AYSO referee even though my sons have aged out. That takes up every Saturday from September through December, but not much more. Many other sports have opportunities like that — recreational leagues are frequently run by volunteers.

      How about art? My artist son has found a couple of volunteer opportunities teaching art to young kids. He’s done this in evenings and on weekends.

      My older son and I love to sail and we occasionally volunteer with an organization that takes kids out on tall ships. Some of the activities are on the weekend and for some, I take vacation time.

      I was visiting a small museum dedicated to some subjects that I love (Walt Disney and trains) and now volunteer for them. They’re open one Sunday a month (twice a month during the summer), making it very convenient.

      The point of all of the above is to illustrate that we’ve taken things that we love to do and found volunteer activities where we can do them. Having a bigger pool of opportunities makes it easier to find things that can fit our schedules and/or make minor adjustments to our schedules to match.

    7. SeekingBetter*

      If you have a United Way in your area, that’s another place you could search for open volunteer opportunities. The one where I live has a website dedicated to all the organizations who have posted help wanted listings. And some of these have one-time or weekend opportunities.

    8. Chaordic One*

      Yes, find out what you are interested in and start from there.

      I volunteer at our library. When I’m working at a job, I squeeze in a 2-hour shift in the library’s used book store on Saturday. I also attend Friend of the Library meetings and they’re all in the evening. I also manage to do a lot of work for them (like work on mailing lists and keep track of donations) at home in my free time.

      Of course, libraries aren’t everybody’s thing and that’s fine. We’ve had a few volunteers who didn’t work out because they couldn’t tell the difference between fiction and nonfiction.

  122. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

    I have a question for people here:

    Do you think people really change their basic work personalities? Is it even possible? I was just talking to one of my team member and was working on her appraisal. I said “you know I’m going to tell you that you need to choose your battles.” And she said “yep, same thing my last 6 managers have said.”

    And I realized my feedback is usually consistent. And then I remembered when I found an old report card from elementary school and some of the same types of things were in there that I struggle with today – time management, a tendency to procrastinate, messy desk. I was thinking it’s funny that I haven’t fundamentally changed in 30 years of living. I mitigate things better now, but I still struggle.

    Do you think people really change? Do you get the same types of comments in your feedback every year?

    1. esra (also a Canadian)*

      I think there are aspects you can change, I have certainly mellowed a ton and am a ton more organized than I was when I started. But there are other parts of me that would just be such a battle to change, that I’ve taken to trying to find somewhere that fits me rather than trying to fit in.

      I mean, it is like super hard to become good at butt-kissing when you are so straight forward with no poker face.

    2. Whats In A Name*

      I think this is a great question! I would say people change the way they handle situations – if they want to or take the feedback well. There is also some professional maturity that comes along with change and some people might not ever achieve it.

      I mean, you might have a messy desk and procrastinate like you did when you were younger but you function in a job and I assume well enough to stay employed!

    3. Anon 12*

      Pretty much I give and get similar comments every year. One way to flip it is the Strengthfinders approach. Talk to people about how to leverage their strengths, not so much about correcting their soft spots. The book is widely available a can be a breath of fresh air when reviews have become rinse and repeat.

    4. Manders*

      I certainly hope so! I’ve struggled with things like being assertive and asking for what I really want for a long time, and that’s going to hold me back if I can’t get it under control. But I’m pretty sure it’s a learned behavior, so it must be possible to unlearn it with enough effort.

    5. Aurion*

      I think personality traits are harder (not impossible, but harder) to change. But since other people’s impression of us is filtered through our mitigation strategies, people probably think we change more than we actually do.

      I’m probably never going to be a patient person, or a person good with kids, or a natural communicator, or a super neat person. When I was younger I would make my displeasure known very loudly, or ignore people at the dinner table to read a book, and my bedroom looked like a hurricane and a bomb went off simultaneously inside. Now I’d have mental checklists to run through for social situations, or a daily 5 minute decluttering, or whatever. And even if my personality traits haven’t changed much, people think I have changed, so feedback for me has changed.

      Sometimes these things don’t matter very much and you don’t need mitigation strategies for them, but sometimes it is worth finding mitigation strategies even if it’s contrary to your nature. I’d rather come up with strategies even if they’re awkward/unnatural but get the task done/communicate better, than lay it at the altar of “people don’t change” and stick to the same patterns that don’t work (I’m thinking of my parents here, not at anything you said).

      1. Grumpy career changer*

        This is very insightful! I also can identify some bad habits (and some good ones too, if I make myself think about it) that I know I’ve had as long as I can remember, but my last-five years-colleagues, I think, wouldn’t think of them, because of the coping strategies that I’ve developed.

    6. TheLazyB*

      I’ve had excellent feedback about how I took feedback/criticism on board and really upped my game. It can be done!

    7. animaniactoo*

      Basic work (or non-work truthfully) personality – no. How you handle your own shortcoming – yes. To the point that the shortcoming becomes very minimized or near invisible.

      But it takes a hell of a lot of hard work. I only managed with the help of a therapist who focused on behavior modification. Admittedly I started farther back than most people, but it took a lot of work to first recognize options, learn to analyze options for myself, and retrain myself to react differently than I did before.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Towards that – conversations with people who knew me before, during, and after therapy have made it clear to me that I am in many ways still the same person I was then – basic core of who I am. It’s not changed. Now I just manage to make most of it work for me rather than against me.

    8. designbot*

      Depends on what you mean by “change.” Their personalities–how they interpret, think, and feel about things–are probably not going to change. However their behaviors can.
      I had to take some really difficult feedback in my last job, that I was too “me first” and while I had the skills to really be a leader this was really offputting and hindering my advancement. I really dug into what was making people say that and it turned out to be statements all coming from a place of insecurity. I tried to address the underlying insecurity but had to accept that I was actually in a tenuous position for reasons I didn’t think I could change, and managed to just change how I framed my interactions with my boss (telling myself that showing leadership didn’t mean showing that I was doing everything, it meant showing that I promoted and showed off the work of others). In a pretty short amount of time I got a lot of feedback that people thought I’d really turned it around, but inside I felt like I was exactly the same.
      So, this all is to say that a motivated person absolutely can change how things are expressed, but also that if you’re motivated to help them change try to address any organizational issues that may be promoting the behavior that’s got you so ticked off. There’s a reason for what they’re doing, they think they’re getting something out of it.

    9. ArtK*

      I think that it is possible to change, but someone needs two things: First, the motivation to change. Second, they need the tools to change.

      For some people “you need to pick your battles” is enough. For many, though, it’s not. Next time, I’d do more coaching. Bring up a situation where you thought the employee took on a battle that it would have been better to walk away from. Analyze the situation together. Why did she feel that she had to engage? Did she recognize that this was a situation where she had a choice? Did she weigh the value of engaging vs not?

      In other words, she may need help in learning *how* to pick her battles. The same applies for other things. You’ve identified some issues for yourself. Pick one. Really try to understand *why* it happens. What are you doing/thinking at that moment when it happens? There are self-help books on dealing with procrastination and time management. (I’ve reconciled myself to a messy desk — periodic clean-outs are my only hope!)

      My point is that simply knowing that there’s a problem isn’t enough. Wanting to fix it may not be enough.

      1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        Well, I actually wasn’t asking about this specific case. It just made me think. But since you went into it, I obviously left out a lot of context because that’s not what I wanted to focus on. With this specific case – she doesn’t want to fix it. I’ve done a lot of coaching with her, and she just doesn’t want to change it. She knows it’s going to limit her professional prospects, she knows that it hurts her image, and she knows it’s a problem, but she really likes that she’s so reactive about things. She likes who she is and she has no intention of changing. She says she’s heard it her whole life and that’s how she is and she’s probably not going to change.

        1. ArtK*

          I realize you weren’t asking about this instance, but it’s all I had to work with. It sounds like you didn’t need my point, at least for this one, since she’s not willing to fix the problem. Which is a whole different management issue.

          The basic point still stands that it is sometimes not enough to know that a change is wanted/needed but it’s necessary to know how to change and not everyone knows that. Managers can fall into the “fix this problem” kind of statement without appreciating that the employee doesn’t know how to change, no matter how willing they are.

        2. Observer*

          The fact that she KNOWS it’s a problem, but actually likes that about herself is something that leads to a different pair of questions. Is she open to change, in general? And, how does she view conflict? We are used to castigating people who are conflict averse. But, people who like a good fight (not just a lively argument about politics that everyone walks away from), can be very hard wot work with as well.

    10. Rocky*

      There’s certain things about me that I’ve been getting feedback about since I was literally 5 years old. I’m in my 40s now, and if it was possible for me to change them, I would have. They’re not going to change. Or, at best I could put 90% of my effort into change, and maybe get a 10% improvement, and it just wouldn’t be worth it. It’s much more productive capitalize on strengths, be aware of shortcomings and look for ways to mitigate their effects.

      On the other hand, I have changed a lot of bad habits and unproductive behavior based on feedback like “When you do x, it creates negative consequence y,” or observing the dynamic myself, and that’s made me a much better colleague over the years.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      I think you can learn to change (or at least get better at) some things such as time management, organization, speaking in public, etc. However, I do not think certain key aspects of your personality will change much after your early 20’s. By that I mean world outlook, sense of fairness, entitlement, empathy, view of other races/cultures, and those sorts of things.

      For me, this means standing up against things that are blatantly wrong. Yes, I’ve been fired over that. It sucks, but I would do so again if I had to, as it’s not something I can live with myself if I didn’t. I’m just not the “go along to get along” type. INTJ

  123. Chester*

    Has anyone ever written about what to do when your company/office is collapsing around you? Our department director quit at the end of last year (we think due primarily to the fact that our department was being inadequately supported by our company), then his lieutenants took the opportunity to get rid of people they didn’t like over the summer by RIFing them. This left us with a very tight staff to handle a high workload–then recently, the highest performing member of the team was fired for mysterious reasons. Now we have almost no one to carry the workload for the department! Our new director just started, but we aren’t seeing much movement yet to solve the enormous problems we are facing and aren’t completely sure he is aware of them. I do my best to “manage up” but it seems clear despite the best efforts of “the leftovers” we are going to fail this year–big time. How does one handle this situation?

    1. ArtK*

      Run away! Run away!

      You may feel like a rat abandoning a ship, but unless there’s a sudden change in leadership, that ship is going down and going down with it is a bad idea.

      1. Chester*

        Unfortunately I can’t – I live in a small town without many opportunities, and I can’t move or commute a long distance because of family responsibilities. Unless there’s a miracle I will be riding the Titanic down!

    2. animaniactoo*

      Don’t “manage up”. Sit down with new director and lay out – “We have significant concerns that we’re going to fail this year based on these factors… We want to be sure that you have a full picture of what is likely to happen based on where we’re at right now if something does not change significantly in time to prevent it.”

      And then ask for guidance, ask for plans of attack, be clear that you’re aware that there may not be instant answers, but can we get an update next week please, etc.

      1. Chester*

        Thanks–I would love to, but given the attitudes of the lieutenants (to whom I report) I am pretty sure this would be seen as insubordination. Kind of stuck with managing up!

        1. animaniactoo*

          Be insubordinate. You’re going to end up out of a job if you don’t. You might wind up out of one anyway, but you’ve made it pretty clear that if you don’t, you’re going to be for sure.

          Don’t let the lieutenants scare you off – particularly if they’re part of the problem.

  124. esra (also a Canadian)*

    Oh terrible, fresh-out-of-school recruiters. Where to even start? I feel like I’m reminding them after every interaction that they approached me, not the other way around.

    And no, I didn’t ask your “special question” at the end of the interview. (Can you imagine? They’re submitting three people for this job, imagine if we all asked this same (bad) question.)
    Also no, I will not use your thank you email template.
    And, yet another, no, I will not be using the resume you “fixed” for my interview. That’s right, the one with the WRONG name on it. I’m good, thanks.

    2. CAA*

      Argh! I hate it when agency recruiters modify the candidate’s resume, but be warned, they will probably send their version even if you tell them not to. The best thing you can do is bring your own printed copies to hand out.

  125. Journal Entries*

    I was asked by my boss to enforce our business casual dress code. First I let everyone know what what expected of them, then I addressed a few who were not meeting the guidelines. (I had to talk to one employee 3 times and my boss and I agreed to tell her that the next time she would be sent home to change.) Now my boss has completely reversed position and said to forget all of it, she doesn’t want anyone sent home and she doesn’t care what they wear. How do I let my staff know and keep my integrity?

    1. Anon 12*

      One option is to not do any affirmative, just stop enforcing it. Another is to own it with some light messaging that sounds like “Folks, there’s been a lot of talk about dress codes lately. In light of some of the feedback we’ve received we are going to stand down on strict enforcement, but please still police yourself so this doesn’t surface again in the future.”

    2. Manders*

      What were the dress code violations? If someone’s coming to work in clubwear, that’s an issue worth addressing even without a formal dress code–but if your boss was forcing you to talk to people who came in with cap sleeves instead of short sleeves, or something equally minor, then it’s going to be harder to walk back from that without making yourself look inconsistent.

        1. Manders*

          Yikes! Yeah, that’s pretty far beyond the pale even for the most casual of offices. I think Anon 12’s wording is good, because it makes it clear that even though you’re not sending people home, this is going to have to change.

    3. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Blame your boss. “Well, it turns out boss gave me incorrect guidance, so you can actually…”

      Next time tell her to tell them herself.

  126. Lil Lamb*

    I am currently working a full time, salary position with great benefits…but the environment is truly toxic. Without getting into too much details this workplace is terrible by every metric: lack of professionalism, constant finger pointing when things go wrong, lack of communication, and bad management. To top it all off, my manager did a bait and switch on me and told me I was going to have X amount of responsibilities, but in actuality I have been doing a receptionist job. This job has made me go home feeling awful for months–at some points breaking into tears.

    I have been job hunting for months, but my interviews have not lead to a job. Now I have recently been offered a part time job at an amazing non-profit. But it’s an hourly position with a significant pay cut, and there’s no guarantee it will extend past December. Would it be crazy to leave my job for such an opportunity?

    1. esra (also a Canadian)*

      I don’t think it would be crazy if:
      1. You could afford the pay cut.
      2. You could afford to be unemployed for a bit in the new year if the job is not extended.
      3. If you put together a plan for next steps in January if it’s not extended.

      Working in a toxic environment really starts to bleed into the rest of your life. If you can afford to make a good change like this one, it’s definitely worth looking into.

    2. DragynAlly*

      I’m a big believer that money isn’t reason enough to stay. What I will say is that if you do take the new opportunity you should continue your job search. That way you are on your way to having something once it’s over and you had the great opportunity while you were there.

    3. Chaordic One*

      It’s not crazy. In spite of the pay cut, I would go for the part time job at the amazing non-profit.

      I would also recommend attempting to supplement your part time job at the amazing non-profit with a second part-time job. (Where I live some of the retail businesses are starting to hire for the holiday season and I’ve applied for some temporary part-time jobs with them.)

      You’ll feel a lot better away from the craziness and be better able to start a job search for a better full-time job in the future.

  127. LibraryChick*

    There is an employer I really want to get in with. They currently have two positions I am qualified for – in two different departments. I am being encouraged by others in the field (academics) to apply for both, but I am concerned about coming across as not knowing what I want or desperate. Advice??

    1. Murphy*

      If they’re similar enough, such that someone could see why you’d be interested in both, it should be OK. You only look unfocused if they’re completely different jobs.

    2. DragynAlly*

      Just make sure you take the time and write very different cover letter for each. If the jobs are different you don’t just want to throw in the same resume and cover letter.

      1. SJ*

        Seconded! Particularly in academics/higher ed, I don’t think it’s unusual at all to apply for multiple jobs at once, as long as your application is tailored to each.

    3. Whats In A Name*

      When I was in academia resumes only got forwarded to the department position you specifically applied to and there was no forwarding. In fact, we usually didn’t even know what other departments were hiring for unless we went out on the public website under employment opportunities.

      The hiring committees were made up by hiring department head and did not include a member of HR.

      Basically I’m saying: if the positions are in 2 different departments your best bet is to apply for each separately.

  128. Grumpy career changer*

    My org has a policy not to reimburse professional organization membership fees, even when they’re associated with event registrations.

    I could pay for the membership fee myself and ask the organization to reimburse me for the conference registration — lower total cost but higher cost to me — or not join the organization, pay the higher non-member registration fee, and get all of that back.

    What would you do?

    PS my manager has strongly encouraged me to join the national and regional chapters of my professional organization, which is $250/year — just memberships, no events/webinars. He’s also suggested that I plan to get an accreditation from this organization, which is $200/year plus the costs of various webinars and training courses. Just some context!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Will it help you in your career to belong to these things? Regardless of your company – will it help your career? What about the accreditation?

      If the answer for that is a fairly unequivocal “yes” then I would be prepared to shell out of my own pocket in my own interest.

      If the answer for that is “meh, can’t hurt but no significant upside” then I’d probably decline to join at this time and let the company bear the full freight for the higher non-member registration.

      I’d also ask your manager why they think it’s so important for you to join/get the accreditation. If it’s because the company wants them in order to get some benefit on the event registration fees, and there’s no significant upside for you otherwise, then I’d probably continue to resist joining, but would be weighing this as a potential “cost of admission” for keeping my job/advancing within the company.

    2. Pwyll*

      Do you want to join and be an active participant in the organization? Will the certification make a difference in your career or your pay? If the answers are no, but the company wants you to go to the conference, do option 2. But if there’s a benefit to the group and you want to join, or the accreditation is important for your career, probably 1.

  129. anonycat*

    Today is the last day at an ok job in HR. I think the company overall is fine, our site is not great though. The big manager thinks a woman’s place is in the home. Needless to say he’s not a great boss, every one of my decisions is undermined, even though I have an MBA and a BS in HR. As a GM, he is an engineer, not a business man. I recently found out I was making about 15k less than the previous MAN in this job. (Of course they changed the job title & description by a few words so I can’t do anything about it.) I’ve been here 4 years and can’t wait to run out the door. I feel terrible for the people that are stuck here. My new job has less hours required (40 vs 50+), more pay, and a shorter commute. I can’t wait. 30 more minutes and I have my final talk with the big cheese and I’m outta here.

    1. designbot*

      Congratulations!! I can’t tell if the “big cheese” and the “big manager” are the same person, but if not I would really encourage you to mention the latent sexism.

      1. Dawn*

        Bonus points if you sing Beyonce at them because damn that is a BOY, BYE moment right there!

        I hope your new job is ahmazinggggggg!!!!

    3. Observer*

      By the way, it’s not entirely true that you cannot do anything about the pay disparity – if you could show that despite the difference in title and description you were doing substantially the same pay, you might very well have a case.

      I realize you probably don’t want to go there, just an FYI. I’d be curious if you could submit a complaint to the EEOC for their records more than to launch a case for yourself. (Then it would be part of the record if someone else complained…)

  130. LPBB*

    I think that I may have screwed up and I’m not sure what action to take.

    For a variety of reasons, I have been (unwillingly) heading a search committee for a position hired through a university. The university is very big on equity while hiring and making sure that all candidates are treated the same. We will be interviewing candidates next week, there was no phone screen because a)there were relatively few candidates, b)this search process has been dragging on and on and we want to get it done, and c)there is someone in the office who applied for this position who is practically doing it already and it’s kind of assumed that she’ll get it. All but one of the interviewees were local, the other one lives a 4-5 hour drive away.

    One of the search committee members very confidently asserted that it would be fine to offer him a video conference option, while inviting all the others to come to interview in person. I brought up the university’s stance on equity and he assured me that it was fine on all of the other search committees he had been on (this is my first and hopefully last). Against my better judgement I didn’t follow up with the HR/Equity person in our office, in part because I really really dislike dealing with her. Now that everything is set and it is too late to change anything, I am beset by doubts. I am really worried that I may have screwed up, the search will be failed, and we will have to start over from scratch.

    For those of you with experience in this sort of thing, did I screw up? Part of me wants to check with the equity person now but a bigger part just wants to let sleeping dogs lie and hope for the best. What would be the better course of action?

    1. ArtK*

      As any parent of more than one child learns very quickly, “equitable” is not identical to “the same.” Frankly, the counter-argument to your doubts is: How is making someone drive 8-9 hours round trip the same as someone local? To me, that would put that candidate at a disadvantage; travel is exhausting. They’d likely have to spend the night and possibly take time off of their job (two days?) for this.

    2. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Since you’re heading the committee, why don’t you tel the member who made the decision to invite the candidate for a videoconference to check it with the HR/equity person. Since he took it upon himself to make that decision without asking you, he can deal with the unpleasant HR/equity person.

    3. Murphy*

      Was that person offered the option of coming in person or doing the interview remotely? Or were they just offered remote? They probably would prefer remote given that much of a distance.

      I think you should be OK either way though. I work at a university and we did it this way when we hired an admin in our office. Actually, the remote person was the one we ended up hiring. (She did come in for a second, in-person, interview but basically the decision to hire her had already been made.)

      1. LPBB*

        I offered him both options and he elected for the remote interview. I was worrying mostly because I didn’t offer the remote option to the others, although if they had requested it we could have accommodated them. The site where I work does not really support video conferencing, so we have to go off-site to do this, which added another layer of complexity and was not something I wanted to encourage.

        I’ll just let it go and hope for the best!

    4. Chaordic One*

      I think this will work out and isn’t really all that big of a deal. I think that offering a video conference to the applicant who lives 4-5 hours away is perfectly reasonable. I find video conferencing not as personal, but as long as ask similar questions about the applicant’s background, experience, education and ideas about the job, it shouldn’t be a major difference in how the interviews are handled and it shouldn’t prevent you from selecting the best candidate.

  131. FJ*

    So I have a good position to be in, but I want some help thinking through my options…
    A year ago, I made the switch from our engineering group to our business and product management and marketing group within my company. Right when I switched originally, I worked for someone that was more hands-off and in a different time zone (Original Manager) but he was still very good, but that was only for a few months. My Current Manager in this new position has been really great… supportive on training, challenging me and giving direction, helping me think through things.

    Now, I have the opportunity to move within the group to a new role that would be working on new technology for us (mobile apps), but it would be reporting to Original Manager. I’m told Original Manager thinks pretty highly of me, and I don’t any issues with him, but his style is definitely more hands-off. I would still have lots of contact with Current Manager and his group, but not officially working for him. In some ways, this is a great opportunity… working on new technology for a pretty traditional company, and it is something that I’m passionate about. I think it might also be a “Build a Team to go after this,” which would be new added responsibility for me. And I get the impression my company generally doesn’t like you to say no to opportunities. But I really like Current Manager, and I think while I’m relatively early in learning this part of my career, he is better at providing me more direction. I am also really liking the work of defining future business opportunities for us, and I don’t want to get stuck in the minutiae of delivering something, which is what I was doing before in engineering.

    In some ways, it’s hard to go wrong. What questions would you be asking yourself and your managers?

    1. DragynAlly*

      I would ask about what guidance i could expect to see working on the project as well as opportunities for collaboration. Sounds like an awesome thing! I love app development I wish I understood it more.

    2. ArtK*

      I’d talk to Current Manager with a script something like this: “I’m very excited about this new opportunity, but disappointed that I won’t be working directly with you any longer. You’ve given me a lot of great advice and direction. Would you be open to me asking for some help/a mentorship?”

  132. Question for Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

    Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed….I just have to know…when and how did the “sensual wristed” come about? Thanks! :)

    1. Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

      Ha! So I wanted to change my name slightly because Katie F was posting a lot and I thought people might get confused (she’s got great things to say though, so it’s not like she was hurting my “brand”, ha)

      And then there was a really, really funny letter about a cover letter that included the phrase “sensual wrists” and I thought it was too funny to pass up :)

      1. Question for Katie the Sensual Wristed Fed*

        I think I remember that one! It was such an odd cover letter anyway, and then the sensual wrists popped up…

  133. Laura R.*

    Does anyone have any good book recommendations on asserting yourself in the workplace, setting work boundaries and dealing with workplace bullying? I looked in to “Stand Up For Yourself Without Getting Fired” which seems interesting but it really seems geared towards what my legal rights are vs how I should react and phrase things in various situations.

  134. MooseGoose*

    (Something happened when I went to post this the first time, so I hope this doesn’t post twice!)
    I have a bit of a weird work situation on my hands right now. Every so often I hear what sounds like snoring from the cubicle a few down from me where the time keeper for out company works. I’ve always just assumed that she had allergies or a cold or something that made her breathing sound this way and never paid any attention to it. But…I just walked over to ask a question about some paper work and she’s slumped over her desk fast asleep! I sort of just turned around and left as quickly as possible. I don’t know if I should try to wake her up or not!

    1. Anon 12*

      Unless the sleeping is causing you difficulty in some way (she isn’t available to help with things that are on a deadline) I would add it to my cocktail party story repertoire and ignore it.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I certainly would wake her with the pretext of a question. You could say “Jane, are you all right?”

    3. TheLazyB*

      She could have narcolepsy or something. I’d ignore it as far as poss, or be very matter of fact about it if not.

  135. Lionheart26*

    I have a direct report, Fiona, who tells “white lies” that keep getting her in trouble, and I have NO idea why. For example, today was a big open fun day for our company. It’s a GREAT, fun day, but it is also a very busy, stressful day for those people that organise it (including me).
    Because of their role, my team didn’t actually have very much work to do today. I told them to make sure our desk was manned at all times, but to otherwise enjoy themselves at the fair. But they weren’t able to manage that without a formal schedule (???) , so I made one a few days ago and published it. Everyone had to man the desk for 2 hours and had the rest of the day free to enjoy the fair.

    Fiona complained SO much about the schedule. She wanted a longer lunch break. She wanted to take her lunch at a different time. She had been asked to help at another table for a 20 minute shift, and so it was only fair that I reduce her 2 hour shift. She even threatened to go to my manager and ask why she was having to do so many desk duties (if my manager knew I’d virtually given her a day off he would have very quickly found plenty of work for her to do!)

    I asked her if there was a reason she needed to work at a different time? No, she just really wanted to enjoy her lunch because she likes the special food we bring in. I ended up being so frustrated that I told very sternly that other people were preparing for the busiest day of the year for our company and she needed to do her part without question. Then I had to walk away because I was SO angry at her attitude.

    I was busy all day today and didn’t see her. But when I returned to our office, another staff member confided what was really going on. It turns out Fiona had invited some dignitaries from her embassy to come to our fair. She was planning on giving them a tour and taking them to lunch. But then of course she got stuck manning our desk. I can’t believe she didn’t just tell me that. I’m no ogre. Although she should have run it by me first, I would have absolutely changed the schedule for her without question.

    This is by no means the first time I have found out that what Fiona means and what she says are not the same. I’ve confronted her about things like this in the past, and she flat out lies to my face about it. I KNOW that when I mention this on Monday she will deny that she invited the embassy. I think she thinks she will be in trouble. But her lying gets her in FAR worse trouble, and it means I can’t address anything with her. If she denies inviting the embassy then I can’t talk to her ABOUT inviting the embassy…..

      1. Lionheart26*

        Well to be fair to her, she doesn’t do anything fire-able. There was nothing wrong with her inviting the embassy today. And a lot of the other instances are times when she’s gone ahead and done some extra work or something but then not owned up to it when I’ve asked about it. It doesn’t seem fair to fire someone for doing extra work!
        Of course I need to address the lying, but short of catching her in one, if she denies doing something then it’s a lot of investigating to get enough evidence to PROVE she’s lying.

        1. Observer*

          You know she’s lying. You seem to have a fair amount of proof already. And you also have a pattern. You really do need to address it. You wouldn’t be firing her for inviting the Embassy people, working extra or whatever. You WOULD be firing her for LYING ABOUT IT. And, possibly for doing things without checking with you first.

          You don’t need evidence that would be a slam dunk in a court of law.

    2. ArtK*

      I’ll be interested in reading any advice you get. I have a similar problem with one of my sons. He’ll fib about things, like sending out a resume or finding a class or something. Weeks later, I’ll find out that he didn’t do it and didn’t want to do it (for whatever reason.) He just agreed because he thought I’d be mad. Of course, I’d be disappointed, but now I’m angry because he lied and strung me along. *sigh*

      1. Observer*

        Stop micromanaging his life – and stop supporting the behavior you don’t like.

        You also may need to figure out consequences for lying, as well.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Well. Wow! I mean, why not tell you something like that as ask to be scheduled to accommodate it, assuming this is a positive thing for your organization.
      I think you need to have a stern talk with her regarding being honest and upfront and that being honest and upfront will not get her in trouble.

      Is this perhaps a cultural thing? Some cultures may be so afraid to speak up to a higher up. I just don’t know.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        That’s a good possibility. I worked on a project with some people in our office in a country that used to be part of the Eastern Bloc. Several times, I would present a solution, go through it, and ask, “OK, does everyone understand this? Is this process something that will work for you?” I would take it a step further and reassure them that it was OK if the answer was no; the reason we present and demo solutions is because we want user feedback so we can design something better, and that I really wanted their feedback so we would end up with a solution that would work for them and help them do their jobs more effectively.

        Invariably, I would be met with silence, or everyone would say yes, what I had presented would work. Then 2 or 3 days later, I would hear from my manager that those same people had told her that what I had presented was all wrong, it wouldn’t work, or it was too labor intensive, etc.

        It was SO frustrating. Then I was talking with someone about it and they opined that it could be a cultural thing, since an entire generation of that country grew up in an environment where the most important thing was to keep your head down and not draw any attention to yourself.

        1. Lionheart26*

          Yup, she is from an ex-soviet country, so that definitely plays a part in it. But I have tried very hard to get her to be honest with me. Her coworkers are from the same country and tell me that she is squirrely like this with them also. They find it odd and frustrating too.

          I agree about a stern meeting though because I have had enough. Getting psyched for monday!

          1. designbot*

            If you can toe the line between being stern and sympathetic, that could be effective for her. After all, if she’s afraid that she’ll get in trouble if she tells the truth, then getting into trouble because you’ve found out the truth only reinforces that perception. I’d really directly state that she’s not in trouble, but you would have wanted to provide a better welcome for the embassy and absolutely would have switched shifts or whatever to accommodate that if you’d known. Try in whatever ways you can reinforce that the truth will always net a better result for all parties.

          2. Observer*

            It’s almost certainly a cultural issue. But, as you can see for yourself, most people do eventually acclimate sufficiently that you can work with them. If she can’t or won’t change, you need to address that, even if it eventually means firing.

            The cultural issue is only useful insofar as it helps you understand a bit what is going on. But, it is NOT a pass. Keep in mind that one of these days she’s almost certainly going to tell a “white lie” that creates significant problems for you.

    4. Marisol*

      So I think your question is, “why does she do this.” Obviously I can’t know what’s in this person’s head, but the first thing that occurred to me is maybe she is a child of an alcoholic. I dated one briefly and was baffled by some of his behavior, and did some research online and read a book about it. They tend to have lots of behavioral things in common, and one big thing is that they lie a lot, albeit not with the same intentions that most people have. They just get fearful about telling the truth because that consequences for them as children. Here’s a good gloss on the subject: http://guesswhatnormalis.com/2010/09/lieyou-its-just-as-easy-to-tell-the-truth-but-adult-children-of-alcoholics-lie/

      This is clearly a guess, and I’m not sure if the whining and threatening you mention is consistent with the a.c.o.a. But…it’s something to consider, maybe.

    5. AshK434*

      I don’t have anything to say about Fiona (she sounds like a piece of work) but I just wanted to point out I don’t think it’s odd that they wanted a formal schedule for manning the desk. It ensures the desk was covered the entire day and it’d be easier to plan/enjoy your day when you know you need to be at the desk at a certain time.

    6. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Not at work, but having family that does something similar here’s my question: if she is never honest with you in the way you’d like, how much does it effect you and her work?

      I’m not 100% clear with the current example because I’m not sure how big of an impact the people coming had on your company. From what I’m reading it looks like Fiona is the one that ended up with the problem, not you.

      If it’s a company problem you can absolutely address it. If not, it doesn’t matter (at least as far as work goes). If she lies, state what you wanted to state anyway, “Ok. I’d heard X, and I just wanted to follow up with you after that. Obviously we’ll try to make accommodations when critical things come up, but I have to know about them. Without complete information I have to make decisions based on the data I have.”

      Maybe add in a bit of specific info about another example and done.

      1. Observer*

        This kind of lying always winds up hurting the company in one way or another. Even in this case, it created a potential problem. Had the embassy people not come, no big deal. But, they were invited and there was no one to give them a tour, because Fiona was at the desk, and no other arrangements had been made. That could make the company look bad, because you can be SURE that she didn’t tell them why this happened.

  136. beetrootqueen*

    My exboss who i mentioned a few weeks back because he was calling me innapropriate names and being rude in front of the children I work with has left the country!!! He’ll never be darkening my or my works door again!!!

  137. Emily H.*

    Is anyone here involved in the health policy field? I have worked for 3 years as the billing coordinator in a chiropractic/physical therapy office, but I don’t have specific health policy experience. However, I feel very strongly that the healthcare industry in the U.S. needs to undergo some major changes and I think it would be an interesting career field to at least explore. What are some suggestions you have as far as breaking into the field without specific health policy experience? I have looked at some health policy analyst jobs that seem to be entry level positions, but they are vague about what sort of skills/tasks the job entails so I’m not sure how to frame my experience in a cover letter. Although I don’t have specific policy experience I enjoy researching new topics and I know I am a quick learner. I taught myself most of the ins and outs of health insurance billing and basically created my current position from scratch since we didn’t have a designated full-time bill coordinator when I started at my current job. Also, is a master’s degree in health policy advisable in order to advance in the field or is it not necessary? I have looked at different programs and the coursework does sound interesting, but I think maybe it would be best to try to find an entry level position and see what the work entails in the real world before embarking on an expensive grad school program.

    Any advice?

    1. designbot*

      I would just say, it’s always worth trying to find a position in the field without additional education if you can. Grad school is so expensive, and it can’t hurt to try, right?

  138. SeptemberGrrl*

    Question for the hiring managers out there. Here’s my situation:

    My mid-level marketing manager position was eliminated and I was laid off 3 months ago. I was there for about 6 years. I knew about it several months ahead of time and was given a good amount of severance.

    I haven’t been job hunting yet because I don’t need to financially. I’m not wealthy or anything but because of my age (early 50s) and my financial situation (always a good saver, no mortgage, can penny pinch very well as needed, have a good nest egg), I am going to be fine if I’m out of work for even a year.

    I’d also be fine being out of work for at least several more months because the job I left was emotionally draining, especially the last year. I’m still recovering from the trauma of it :)

    I am starting to look a little and plan to go full tilt by the end of October and I anticipate it taking at least 6 months to land something.

    My question is – what do I say in interviews when they ask “What have you been doing since you left company X?” and how do I explain my time off? Note that I don’t think I should HAVE to explain it but I know from experience job hunting after a layoff previously, it’s a very big topic in an interviews. I was about 35 at that time and I was unemployed for 14 months. I would get questions like “why do you want to go back to work after so much time off?” “How do you think it will be going to an office every day after so much time off?”. Really just astonishingly clueless questions. I was much more stressed about being out of work then than I am now, and that kind of thing made it even tougher.

    The real answer is “Financially, I could take some time away from work and so I did. and it was GREAT. And now it’s over. ” I know that’s not the answer I can actually give.

    Overall, I think my question is – as a hiring manager, when you see someone out of work for an extended period of time, what negative things does that connotate to you? What fears should I be looking to allay? Is it a horrible thing that someone would be OK with having an extended period of time off work and then go back? When I’m working, I love what I do and I do it very well and I do want to go back to it.

    Hmm, I just realized I have another question. At my last job I was making around $110K and the job was intense and demanding. I managed 2 people. I don’t want that job again. I’m looking for a solo contributor role and anything $70K and up is fine. The plain fact is, I want a less dending job that is more executional and less management bullshit. How do I explain THAT? “I don’t need the headaches that come with being at that level anymore. I want to focus more on doing and less on talking endlessly about doing” is accurate but not appropriate for an interview!

    Thanks for any help you can give!

    1. Ann Furthermore*

      I think you’ve got a great answer all ready. You can say that you are fortunate that you had enough money saved to allow you to be selective about your next opportunity and be sure it was the right move.

      Being willing to take a pay cut is something you can address in your cover letter.

    2. designbot*

      I think it’s fine to say something like, I spent so many years at Company X in an incredibly demanding role that I felt I really needed to take a break and assess what I wanted out of my next role. At this point in my life I’ve decided that I’m really looking for a better work-life balance even if that means my salary is not comparable to that role. I’d only say that very last bit though if they’d asked about salary history etc.

    3. CAA*

      For the “what have you been doing since X?” question, if I ask that it’s just conversation and I don’t really care that much about the specific answer. Usually people say they’ve been looking for work; taking a sabbatical; dealing with a family or medical issue; raising children; traveling; going to school; pursuing hobbies. Anything like that is fine. If I ask a follow-up, it’s just me trying to make some kind of personal connection and figure out whether you’d be a pleasant person to have around the office and can interact appropriately with other people.

      I understand that questions like whether it’s hard to go back to work after being off, or why you need to work can be clueless, but I think you might be expecting too much of the interviewers. For most hiring managers, interviewing is a small fraction of their actual work, and it’s a skill that has to be learned. At least for me, it took a lot of practice to get good at it, and I know I can still improve. The questions you describe sound like inelegant ways of finding out whether you’d take the job seriously and would stick around for a while or if you’re a dilettante who doesn’t need a job, is just filling time, and will leave when things get challenging.

      For the step down in responsibility, address it in your cover letter. One of the best hires I ever made was someone who tried being a manager, didn’t like it, and wanted to go back to the individual contributor level. I would have never interviewed him based on his resume alone, because he looked over qualified, but the cover letter made it clear he understood the job he was applying for and this was the role he wanted. It’s fine to say that you enjoy making a contribution without being responsible for managing performance and salaries of others.

    4. Marmalade*

      Agree with the commenters above. If you don’t mind a white lie, you could always say that you spent time remodelling your house or something.

  139. A Slytherin*

    Just a quick opinion scan – what do you guys think of open days? My office has four open positions for “Junior Teapotters” that it has had some trouble filling and our HR department came up with the idea of hosting an open day.

    I’m not responsible for HR, so it’s none of my business but we’ve had very few registrations so far (they request attendees send a CV ahead of time) and I’m pretty skeptical towards the efficiency of open days. It just seems that if you’re already having trouble filling a position (for the record, our pay and working conditions are great, it’s simply an in-demand field), then an open day is just making applicants jump through extra hoops. On the other hand, touring the office and meeting the team could help job seekers see if they “fit” and as I current employee I’d agree that the company culture is something we want to “sell”. I guess I’m just worried we’ll end up with like four people showing up and that’s going to suck.

    Does anyone have experience with an open day, whether as an attendee or host?

    3. Colette*

      Is your pay great enough? If you’re not getting applicants, that’s something to look at.

      It sounds like you’re talking about a day for interested people to come in, see the building, and interact with hiring managers? It may be worth trying, if:
      – you’re prepared for people who aren’t serious to come by out of curiousity
      – you restrict the hours (say 4-7)
      – you still consider people who apply normally

    4. Leatherwings*

      I’ve attended something similar, and I have pretty strong negative feelings. I have social anxiety that manifests itself around large groups of strangers. It doesn’t affect me too much in a normal interview or at work, but these things make me tense up and seem like a total weirdo. I can’t imagine they are a good way to evaluate someone’s actual skills.

      If the goal really is to help job applicants get to know the team and learn about the office culture then make that a part of the normal interview process.

    5. Rocky*

      “if you’re already having trouble filling a position (for the record, our pay and working conditions are great, it’s simply an in-demand field), then an open day is just making applicants jump through extra hoops”

      I’ve never heard of this, but that would be my take on it, too. If I’m an entry-level person in an in-demand field, this just seems like an employer asking me to do extra stuff to apply for one of many jobs I’m considering, not a way to find out if I want to work there.

      I’ll take you at your word that the pay and conditions are great. When we’ve had trouble filling entry-level jobs here, I believe it’s because they didn’t pay well enough, or they weren’t advertised effectively. We kept acting like the recession was still happening, where we could get our pick of great people for peanuts just through word-of-mouth. Nope.

      Since it’s your HR folks championing this, I’d say let them have their open day, and if it fails, maybe suggest that the overall recruiting process or the positions themselves could be reviewed to make them more appealing.

    6. aeldest*

      If by open day you mean like a hiring fair type day, I think that’s a pretty terrible idea, TBH. If they’re during normal business hours I wouldn’t be able to attend–sure, I’ll take time off for an actual interview that could lead to something (i.e. they’ve looked at my resume and actually see me as a candidate), but no way am I wasting my time on what is essentially an informational seminar/group interview.

      People can tour the office, meet the team, and get “sold” on the company culture during their interviews–I think if anything, being around a bunch of other random candidates will make it harder to see if people “fit”.

    7. A Slytherin*

      Thanks for the response guys! Yeah, it’s like a day for applicants to check out the building. There’s a short presentation of the various teams, a tour of the office and then some drinks and refreshments with current employees.

      The fact that none of you have heard of one is probably a sign in itself – to think of it, I don’t think I’ve seen a similar event outside my office either. I think it’s just another piece in the puzzle – our HR seems to be a bit detached from the industry, imho a big part of why those junior positions aren’t getting filled is that they’re simply not being advertised on the right industry servers.

      Of course, I don’t have any stats on the number of applicants, but all I know is that the positions have been vacant for two months and I’ve only noticed two interviews, neither of which led to a new employee. I was brought on board not that long ago, so I did my research and the pay is above market. I think visibility is a huge part of the issue – but they’re going about this the wrong way. Just post the opening to the right job sites.

    8. Chaordic One*

      It sounds more like an “open house” and “job fair” combined. We’ve had such events at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. They had good (not great) attendence, but did not attract very many serious qualified applicants. We did get several good hires over the years. I wasn’t terrible, it was just kind of “meh.”

    9. Office Plant*

      I think it’s a good idea, but making people jump through hoops ahead of time is going to discourage attendance. There’s also the fact that some people won’t attend because they don’t want anyone to know that they’re job hunting.

      Some companies have events that function as open days but are disguised as something else. The idea is to network and give back to the community. Think speaker events, discussion groups, hack-a-thons, etc.

  140. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

    A while ago I posted about being a salaried/exempt employee who had to start work at 5am and leave at 5pm because my boss and HR stated that those were my “contracted hours.” Well, I had it happen again , and this time I put my foot down. I explained that since I was starting 3 hours before my usual time, I would still be working a full day if I ended 3 hours earlier. Surprisingly, they agreed! I got to go home at 2pm after starting at 5am. Still didn’t get to take a lunch (too busy), but I don’t have to work a 12 hour day!

      1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

        Thanks! Now that I’ve got a template of what to say, I’ll just keep using it until the message really sinks it.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I’m thrilled for you! I would love to make this work with my job, but it really requires me to work for a full 12 hours, like I did yesterday, and the day before…

      1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

        I forgot to mention my “contracted hours” are 8am-5pm. So yeah, they try to get me to work 5am-5pm on days like that but I’m only being paid for 8 hrs… Usually I work at least 9hrs a day (7:45am-6pm, sometimes later) but I was just too tired because I woke up at 4am! If I’m not being paid OT I’m not going to tough it out when I start that early haha

  141. Fabulous*

    This past May I was brought on as a temp to cover – let’s call her Sarah’s – maternity leave. Sarah came back and I was transitioned into a new shared administrative role specially created so they could keep me on, and I was finally transitioned to full-time this past Monday (yay!!)

    Today I just learned that Sarah was let go, as in yesterday was her last day. There was no announcement and I was not notified individually either. We work under different managers now so it’s exactly not surprising I didn’t hear, but her work does marginally affect mine.

    Hopefully they don’t have me do both my new job AND Sarah’s, but if they do, is it possible to negotiate a raise since my duties would be changing? I was fairly disappointed at the rate they offered – long story short, my manager said they could meet my salary requirements, but came significantly short when it was all said and done, but I needed a job so I accepted.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s reasonable if they see it as your position permanently expanding. I wouldn’t do it if it’s just covering some of Sarah’s stuff until they hire a replacement–but I would keep an eye on the time frame there to make sure it doesn’t become your temporary work permanently.

  142. Not Invited*

    Do you reply to the e-mail that tells you you were not chosen for an in person interview after the phone interview? I’m not sure if I should say thanks for the opportunity, or nothing.

    1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

      I would still say thank you for their time and consideration, but that’s my opinion. Maybe they will keep your resume and call you if another position opens up, maybe they won’t, but if you say thank you they’ll regard you in a better light (at least a little).

    2. Fabulous*

      Depends on if I’m particularly interested in working with the company in general. If yes, I’d reply with a brief Thanks so as not to miff anyone important in future hirings.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      Absolutely send a thank-you email. You never know what might happen. I had a phone interview 2 weeks ago that went very well, and I hit it off with the hiring manager. I sent her a follow up email a week later, and she replied and said the position had been filled. I replied thanking her for her time, and asked if she had any feedback for my interview that I could use in the future, and closed by saying I wished them the best of luck moving forward.

      Yesterday she emailed me saying that the person they hired took another job and left them high and dry, and asking if I was still interested. I have a 2nd interview next week, and they seem to be pretty serious since it’s a half day and I’m meeting with people up to the CEO.

      So yes…send a gracious thank you. It will leave a good impression, and may end up helping you!

  143. Valkyrie*

    I’ve been waiting for this open thread!

    TLDR: Coworker I don’t particularly like needs me to be her office BFF and I don’t wanna!

    I have a coworker, let’s call her Linda, who seems to NEED an office friend. Linda and I could not be more different, she is insecure and needs advice on every life decision she makes (literally every one, down to her nail color). She requires quite a bit of hand-holding, she also sort of acts like work is a reality show and we’re all competing.

    Linda and I have never been “friends”, we’re cordial to each other, but we’ve gotten into it a couple of times. From my perspective she passes the blame around and doesn’t take accountability for her actions, which drives me insane and has led to conflict in the past. We’ve always managed to work through it and generally have a good working relationship now.

    Linda needs a work friend, when I first started about 3 years ago it was Mia, then Mia left and it was Angela, then Angela left and it was Mary. (Mind you, Linda HATED Mary for a long time and warned me about her when I first started; Linda also saved photos of a conversation that Mary had on G-Chat with her boyfriend in case she ever needed them….in short Linda is petty and manipulative, and I absolutely do not trust her).

    Mary has just left, and we’re short-staffed, but this means that I am Linda’s new work friend by default. I really don’t want this job. Linda has started texting me after work, and although it’s silly stuff and generally mild and short I don’t want this to be the beginning of a pattern.

    I tend to be terrible about keeping my guard up around people and I can be overly trusting, so I can definitely see myself getting too comfortable and falling into some weird sort of trap. The other thing is, we’re the only two full-time employees, so she is the person I have for water cooler chat, which is important for my sanity.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for helping my make sure I maintain the boundaries? Thanks so much in advance, I appreciate it!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Linda sounds like a real piece of work! Wow!

      Don’t respond to her texts. If she asks why, say that you prefer to keep your work life and personal life separate. Don’t encourage her!

      1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

        Good suggestions! Definitely don’t encourage Linda. Be professional at work, and don’t engage her in anything other than work things at work. Set the tone and enforce it. It’s going to be hard if she’s the only person in the office, but keep at it!

    2. Marisol*

      Try like hell to find someone else for water cooler chat. Do you have a friend at another company you can email a couple of times a day, or can you get on Facebook during work? Obviously posting/reading only safe-for-work stuff.

      Ignore her texts after work. There’s been all kinds of posts on this site about shutting that sort of thing down.

      This last suggestion is one of my new-agey suggestions that I have posted before, but it is a kind of psychological vitamin c (a panacea in other words) and it really works. Google EFT tapping; it’s an easy process where you tap on acupuncture points while describing your problem. Somehow, it works to make these problems go away. I have used it for social anxiety that I feel around certain people with great success. So you would tap on the subject of boundaries, or on Linda.

      Keep your responses to her as noncommittal as possible. The more water cooler chat you engage in, the more you will be encouraging her.

      Good luck!!

      1. Valkyrie*

        Thanks so much! I’ll try this.

        I do interact with other people outside work during the day, but it isn’t quite the same. I’ll keep reminding myself to be boring and noncommittal.

    3. Mephyle*

      As for the texts outside of work, assign her number to a unique tone if your phone allows it. (30 Seconds of Silence is an effective one.) This will make it them easier to ignore.

    4. LoFlo*

      I had a coworker like this. Efforts to deflect her were very difficult. She frequently went to management to complain about others’ “rude” behavior if they didn’t chat with her, or go to lunch with her. She also gossiped about people and undermined their work. Can you some how change the location of your work station so she isn’t so close? Can you find ways to organize your time and task so you aren’t available to her?

  144. Ann Furthermore*

    I had a third interview today with a company (company A) I applied to back in August. It seemed to go well. Next week I have a half day interview with another company (company B), meeting with everyone up to the CEO.

    I liked everyone I met with at Company A. Many of the reviews on Glass Door talk a lot about how the company values work/life balance, and someone I spoke with confirmed that this is true. They’re good about being flexible with schedules, working from home when you need to, etc. The office is 10 minutes from my house. The work is pretty much what I’m doing now, but I would probably be able to negotiate a nice bump in pay.

    The job at Company B is an opportunity to do something completely different, and take my career in a totally new direction. There’s some travel, but I’ve been assured that it would not exceed 25% (which I can handle), and that would be on the high end. It also limits the amount of work with end-users, which is appealing as well. The job at Company A would involve working closely with end-users. (I’m not opposed to working with end-users, but I’ve been doing it for a very long time, and it would be nice to take a break and do something else.) The kicker is that Company B would be a 45 minute commute each way.

    If Company B would allow me to work from home 2 days a week, I could handle the commute. If both companies were located in the same place, I would take the job with Company B in a minute. So I’d like to take a poll. What would you do, AAM hive mind? Take the job that’s pretty much the same thing that I’ve been doing with an easy commute, with what appears to be a pretty nice group of co-workers? Or take the job that would be more of a strategic career move with the long commute?

    1. Anon today (f/u on a previous post)*

      For me, as someone who does the 45min commute both ways every day… This is a normal commute for my area, so that wouldn’t be a deterrent. But for you that’s long, so I’ll try to keep that in mind as I think this through via my typing.

      It sounds like you’ll prefer Company B all things considered. Have they offered the 2 days at home work? While I understand the familiarity Company A is offering, I’d say go with B if they give you an offer. But Company A is offering a pay increase, so would it be possible to negotiate with B?

      Put the way you worded it, “take the job that would be more of a strategic career move with the longer commute” in my opinion.

  145. Former Invoice Girl*

    A few weeks ago I wrote in about my team being scattered due to our contract ending with the company whose work we support, and not being sure whether or not to stay with my company. Well, that problem got solved a week after the announcement – I was offered a position and I’m starting on Monday!

    It’s going to be “back to the back office” Monday – instead of working on the operation, I’m going to silently do business control behind my computer. I’m excited!

      1. Former Invoice Girl*

        Thank you! It is – not only because back office work is the kind of thing I feel most at home with, but because I’ve never done business control and I like to learn new things. Aaah.

  146. Mimmy*

    I’m applying for the job I wrote about upthread, but I am probably going to have other questions too, so please bare with me.

    What do you put for the salary requirement (yes, it’s a required field) when they give the hourly pay up front?

    1. Mimmy*

      Another question:

      In the space where it asks for your supervisor’s name, I think all of the supervisors I had have moved on and I no longer have contact with them. Would I then just put down someone who is still there and supervised me in any way?

      1. Is it Friday Yet?*

        It should be whoever your direct supervisor was for the majority of the time. It’s fine if they’ve moved on, and you no longer have contact.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      They give a number or a range? Can you leave your salary requirement blank, or do you need to fill in a number?

    3. CAA*

      If you already know what the hourly rate is, and it’s acceptable to you, put that amount. If the blank will take characters, you can put $11.50/hr, but even if you don’t put the /hr in there, it’ll be obvious what you mean. If you’re planning to ask for or negotiate more, you can put a $0 in there or put the actual amount you would need in order to accept the job, but be aware that you may not get interviewed if there are other candidates willing to fill the position at the offered rate.

      Regarding the supervisor names — you can either use the name of the person who supervised you the most or the one who was supervising you when you left. There is no need to try and find someone who is still there, just provide the information as if everything were the same as the day you walked out the door. Similarly, if a place where you worked went out of business, you still list them on future job applications as a past employer, though you may have to leave the phone number blank or put zeros in.

  147. Brent*

    At my workplace there are no real consequences for poor performance. PIPs are only for attendance issues, and employees have the option to accept or reject any further training offered them. This is a problem for me because I am responsible for the training, but have no authority to make sure people actually do it.

    Since I started in this role, people have been constantly coming to me about other employees’ mistakes, but everyone says they are doing fine themselves. Common scenario: Jane complains to me that Henry is making a particular mistake, and can I please review it with him? Later that day, Jane makes the same mistake, but claims that it was a one-off and she knows exactly what she is doing. The next day, Jane and Henry both make the same mistake, and say they know how to do it correctly and everything will be fine now. Repeat ad nauseam.

    Management is aware of mistakes and will document them and speak to the employee, but it just ends there. And these are major mistakes that I’m concerned about, ones that cost the company tens of thousands of dollars and put us at risk of lawsuits and government fines. It’s like management has some mental block when it comes to doing anything about performance issues, and it’s bizarre to me, because they spend just as much time as I do cleaning up the constant errors, and are just as annoyed by them. What’s a good way to bring this up with management? It’s not like they don’t put people on PIPs all the time – but only for chronic lateness. It’s really very confusing.

    1. NW Mossy*

      You’ve got a deeper issue here than PIPs, I think. You’ve got poor processes that are allowing multiple people to make the same mistake (regardless of the underlying reason) and you’ve got non-existent risk management to assess what would happen if a process failed and quantify the risk of error.

      I don’t know how big your organization is, but in my business line (~400 employees), we’ve got a dedicated risk manager and a team of process analysts that work on these two issues as full-time jobs. In smaller organizations, you may not be able to have someone full-time on these, but both should be part of someone’s remit – risk management might be a fit for whoever handles legal issues for your company, while process analysis/improvement might land on the plate of front-line managers.

      Truth told, this is going to be way beyond your pay grade to address, most likely – this is senior leadership/exec team stuff. I’d recommend taking it to the highest person in your management chain you have a good relationship with and call it out to get it on their radar. Calling attention to the persistent issues is as much as you can reasonably accomplish from your position.

      1. Brent*

        That’s a good point. It was something that really struck me when I first started there, the total lack of safeguards, but it’s pretty standard in the industry. However, the employees at my company have an unusually low amount of experience compared to the industry as a whole (the company is really into hiring people out of a related, but separate field). The general attitude seems to be that all these issues are just the trade-off for whatever benefits we get from hiring outside the field (not sure what those benefits are, honestly).

        Now that I’m thinking about it, it’s a kind of weirder situation than I first thought. Still want to put everyone on PIPs though haha.

  148. Golden Handcuffs*

    This is totally a first-world problem, but I’m trying to figure out if I’m in a mid-career slump, or just need to be doing something else entirely. I’ve been in my field for over 15 years and have done very well, but I’m bored, with a side order of non-profit burnout. There’s no clear path forward for me in my current organization. Because I’m a little ridiculously over-specialized (let’s say my job title is Director of Advanced Artisanal Dark Chocolate Teapots Education), the next career step would mean:

    – Relocating. I live in a major metropolitan area and there are maaaaybe 2 lateral positions that exist here. For even a lateral move, let alone a step up, I’d most likely have to be willing to relocate almost anywhere in the country, and we don’t want to move.

    – Moving up the ladder to an Executive Director position, which doesn’t much interest me

    – Transferring my skills to another field entirely

    – Doing consulting work or something entrepreneurial related to my field

    Has anyone else gone through this? What did you decide to do? What happened?

    1. Colette*

      I have not gone through this, so here is some unsolicited advice.

      You don’t want to move, and you don’t want to advance. Those are both reasonable choices.

      1. Colette*

        Well, I didn’t intend to submit that. Anyway, my point:
        Would you rather transfer to a new field, or move to consulting? Both are different and probably a little scary. Are you interested in learning the businessy parts of consulting (finding new clients, setting and defending your own hours, billing)?

        1. Golden Handcuffs*

          I’ve already done a fair bit of consulting and I like the business-y parts.

          I’m going to respond to the advice you didn’t intend to submit, because I get that it could sound like I’m saying “I want my situation to change but I don’t want to do anything to change it,” and that’s really not how I feel. It’s mainly that there’s a very established career path in my field, and stepping out of it is pretty unmapped territory.

          1. Colette*

            It didn’t really sound like you were whining without wanting to change things to me, it was just clear that you’d already kind of ruled out two options, but that kind of thing is not always clear when you’re the one saying it.

            So, since you’ve already done consulting, you have a good view of what that entails. What do you want to do?

            For the record, there’s nothing wrong with deciding you want to move sideways instead of up, or that you want more control about what you do.

  149. Tandy Miller*

    Delurking because I need opinions. Any advice on what to do when you find out that one of your strongest references has a serious health issue? Todd was my former manager at my first job out of college and I haven’t respected another boss more. We’ve kept in touch and I don’t want to burden Todd on top of everything that comes with what I hope will be a successful treatment and recovery, except I feel that he is one of the few references I have who not only knows my background and prior work ethic, but can articulate himself very well. He has always been willing to provide a reference when I needed one, and were it not for this discovery, I would not have hesitated to ask. What would you suggest I do?: Ask anyway after a few days, ask ASAP, or start contacting other references (whose input might not be as strong or beneficial as Todd’s)? Thanks, all. Even if I didn’t need a reference, this is terrible news because Todd is a really great person and a good friend.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, ouch. You don’t exactly say–are you being asked for references already or are you expecting that to happen soon? I think the answer depends somewhat on where you are in the job search and the nature of the health issue–if he’s having heart surgery I’d forget it unless the employer can wait for a few weeks, if he’s going to be starting chemo in two weeks I might test the waters now, etc. If there are family members you might also check with them to see their take on his current engagement level.

      But I also think you’re smart to start thinking about other possibilities.

      1. Tandy Miller*

        Hi fposte, thank you for replying! Always enjoy reading your thoughtful responses.

        To answer your questions, I’m applying early for a spot in a program outside of the field I started in but is more in line with my last job. Written recommendations are required, and a few words from Todd about my transferable skills, personality, growth, etc. would be of invaluable help in portraying myself as an appealing candidate (one can only say so much in a personal statement!). I have 2 months left to submit all of my materials and have been chipping away at this over the summer, so basically all I need are my references’ letters and I want to be considerate and give them ample time. T is doing quite well, but I am concerned about what his condition might be in the next month, so I’m not sure if I should act immediately. I don’t want to come across as insensitive or demanding. It’s a delicate situation. OTOH, I might be over thinking this.

        However, I’m applying for a couple of jobs as well in case I am not accepted into the program. I might not list him as a reference in light of this news, so I’m also thinking about how best to proceed in the long term, facing a worst-case scenario. Valkyrie was kind enough to provide some suggestions in her comment. :)

    2. Valkyrie*

      I have a former boss who ended up needing two brain surgeries after we worked together, I absolutely needed her as a reference but although she remembers me and is fine, all things considered, I can’t really trust her to be a reference because her capacity is diminished. What I’ve started doing is referring people to my coworker from that position who basically took over when the boss started to decline.

      Your case is different, but is there anyone else from that job who can speak to your performance? Do you have any mutua friends who you can test the waters with? Maybe someone closer to him can help answer if it would be appropriate.

      Good luck!

      1. Tandy Miller*

        Hi, Valkyrie. While I’m very sorry to hear about your boss, I’m glad you were able to get your coworker to help you out in the end! Also hope your boss is doing well these days.

        Thanks so much for your alternative suggestions! Luckily, nearly of us who were managed by Todd have stayed in contact and I meet them once a month or so for drinks (I feel like we all are taking this health bombshell badly). It gets a bit cloudy, but after Todd left the company, his position was never re-filled and our department was not assigned a formal supervisor, so we essentially self-managed. Additionally, no one remaining there in a formal management position knew me until I also left the company — I guess my best bet is to ask one of my former co-workers to be on standby, just in case. Looking back, it seems like such a mess!, but that job was such a seminal experience in so many ways and I learned so much, a lot of it thanks to Todd’s style of management.

  150. Jbean*

    Chronic migraines, ADA, and actually getting work done: My coworker has chronic migraines. I have occasional migraines that usually are a result of something I’ve ingested. They’re pretty bad but come with less frequency than in the past. My co-worker rarely gets any work done because of her migraines. She makes more than $120,000 a year and does almost no work. If I need something from her, like feedback, I have just come to view it as optional even if it isn’t. I don’t want to judge, being a sufferer myself, but I often see her in the middle of migraine, obviously suffering, then perking up and becoming chatty and energetic when something catches her attention. She’s down and in pain one minute and then up and about and talking like she has no worries the next. Can anyone explain this? And what kind of accommodations should be made for her beyond lighting and time off for sick leave? Can we expect her to actually carry the workload associated with her pay scale and ranking? Or do chronic migraines change those expectations?

    1. fposte*

      What does your/her manager think of it all? As a co-worker, I’d confine myself to thinking about whether or not I get what I need from her or have a fair workload. If you’re getting behind on stuff you need her for or having to do her work, I’d raise that with your manager and see what she wants you to do. But if you’re not, I’d turn it all into background noise–her manager is apparently fine with it and it’s not hurting you, so it’s neither your circus nor your monkeys.

      1. Jbean*

        Nope, her manager has told me to go around her to get things done. It’s a huge issue. And it’s only not *hurting* my work because I’ve had to deal with worse so she just becomes a non-entity. Technically it shouldn’t be this way. In fact, I think it may be against the law. Others’ work grinds to a halt because they’re waiting on decisions from her.

        But the question was more about migraines and disability and expectations for work. The salary combined with the lack of output, particularly because this is the federal government, is just another layer on that because I find it annoying.

        No insight into the migraine on/migraine off issue?

        1. Colette*

          I don’t think it really matters whether they’re real migraines or not. It sounds to me like they’re not, but as a coworker there’s nothing you can or should do about it.

        2. Rocky*

          I would completely set aside any question about whether migraines are real or not. No good will come of pursuing that angle. And anyway, it doesn’t matter whether she’s suffering or is just a great actress, because the effect on your work is the same either way.

        3. Retail HR Guy*

          Legally speaking, if the migraines prevent her from doing her job even with reasonable accommodations, then she is not a qualified employee under the ADA covered by its protections.

        4. Tau*

          I’m with Colette here – don’t get into how she reacts to her migraines, and absolutely absolutely under no circumstances get into whether you think she’s faking or not, because nothing good lies that way.

          I actually don’t think the signs say she’s faking, as I can easily imagine someone being able to briefly fake normalcy for social/interesting stuff while in severe pain but not be able to do work to a normal standard, especially considering this is a chronic problem and so she may have gotten pretty adept at leveraging distraction right now. I wouldn’t be surprised if I come off similarly when I get my own annual Headaches Of Doom, honestly. But even if she is, no good can come of you pursuing that line of inquiry. Especially not as a coworker rather than a manager.

        5. Candi*

          If she’s functioning under low level migraines, that would explain the behavior, due to the difference in degree.

          But don’t get into that.

          Address this from the productivity angle, that she does little or no work even with accommodation. The archives have tons of info on language and stuff.

          Food-trigger migraines here. Depending on how much I ingest, I can go from nausea and vertigo to flat-out no I’m not getting out of be done where’s that cold washcloth and don’t you DARE open those curtains!!!

          I miss chocolate. >.< (Sausage/seasoned meats, cheddar, and red wine, not so much.)

  151. animaniactoo*

    My entire department is laughing at me. We’re a feast or famine and we’ve been in famine for a far longer than usual time. All my filing is done, I am sorting and weeding old e-mails, went to my boss yesterday to propose a project for myself as soon as that is done. She turned me down on it and asked me to give her a day or two to see what might pick up.

    Something just walked in the door and she assigned in to me. I practically ran through her door to get it. They’re all laughing at my eagerness, but I find it painful to be paid for not doing much work for long periods of time and omg I am so bored of going through the e-mails. So um… I have to go measure things now. 8•D

  152. Allllablaster*

    How much time is it normal to waste at an office job? Some of my coworkers seem to waste a LOT of time. I’m asking this after moving from a more blue-collar job where it was more obvious. By “a lot” I mean they might be in the office for 6 hours a day. There is no way to do this job remotely (including from home) and they don’t meet with clients. They also don’t actually get their work done. I pick up the slack a fair bit, which is why it bothers me. My manager doesn’t seem to care though, which is why I wonder. He also doesn’t seem to care who does what- everything is just a group project. It’s difficult to make visible what I did vs what they did, and if we fail we fail as a group, it seems. I wouldn’t care if they at least were physically in the office for 8 hours but they’re clearly not even trying! I’m just hoping he notices more than he seems to. He rarely physically sees us during the day, so may or may not know they’re not there.

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like they’re wasting too much time, which I’m basing on them not getting their work done. I’d raise it to your manager, if he doesn’t know already.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      My manager doesn’t seem to care though, which is why I wonder. He also doesn’t seem to care who does what- everything is just a group project.

      I mean, this is pretty much all of it right here. Your manager is making the culture. Doesn’t care, doesn’t enforce.

      That said, I’d say, having taught secondary school, in which there is very little time-wasting, I’ve found pretty much every office job be pretty chill by comparison, no matter how “busy” it is (and that’s even when I had a receptionist job with the phone ringing off the hook constantly).

      The problem I’ve seen is that most office jobs judge you by the hours you work and not the work you produce. In most offices, if you’re an amazing worker and can get a project done in 3 hours extremely well, and someone else takes 8 hours to get it done passably, you don’t get to leave 5 hours early just because you were efficient.

      1. Allllablaster*

        In our case that 8-hour person also completely blows the budget. We have very little wiggle room and when they use 8 hours for a 6-hour assignment I suddenly have 4 hours for my 6-hour assignment. It’s annoying.

  153. Sparkly Librarian*

    Ugh, I need to learn not to schedule meetings first thing in the week. Even with multiple calendar reminders, I missed one (a second one! different meeting, but same scheduling setup) on Monday. I was all proud of myself for getting to work 15 minutes early for once, and as I’m walking into the building my phone rings — it’s someone asking, “Hey, are we still meeting?” [cue stunned search of memory and dawning realization that I should have been at another worksite 30 minutes before my day usually starts] “Uhhh… yeeeeees. Yes? Yes.”

    I asked for 5 minutes to get to my desk, called the other site, and held up my end via phone, but that was SO not the impression I wanted to make on this workgroup!

    1. Sibley*

      well, your first mistake was scheduling a meeting for before you normally get there. Nothing good ever comes from that! Been there, done that.

  154. Francesca*

    I’m about 6 months in to my first full time post-college job and am pretty happy here. However, I’m looking for advice on how best to manage downtime.

    My role is essentially that of a project coordinator, working with clients and pushing projects through our creative team to develop a variety of marketing and communications pieces. There are definitely days where I am so busy I don’t look up from my screen, but there are others where I get copied on 10 emails and have no work to do. I’m not against asking for more work/clients to support ( I did just take on a new client and have been somewhat busier), but am thinking this may just be the nature of the work I am doing.

    I definitely pick up work when it comes through, but on slower days, how would you recommend I spend my downtime? I’m basically just reading a ton of news and AAM at this point.

    1. Colette*

      I’d recommend talking with your manager about non-urgent projects you can work in during the slow days. But if that’s not possible, then just enjoy the occasional slow day when it comes. (If there are lots of slow days, more clients is probably the answer).

    2. Leatherwings*

      I would suggest a couple of things:
      1) Propose a longer term project that you can pick up when you have the time.
      2) Work on developing a skill that will be useful in the job. When I had a bunch of downtime, I took free online excel courses and it ended up coming in handy later. Because it was applicable to the job I didn’t have any issue justifying it to by my boss.

    3. Is it Friday Yet?*

      In the past, when I was just getting started at a new job, I have mentioned my slower days to my manager and asked if there are meetings that I could sit in on to learn more about the company or a client.

      It’s proven to be very helpful, and I usually ended up with more work as a result.

  155. Retail HR Guy*

    Today I asked for a spreadsheet of info from one of my direct reports. She hand-delivered a printed copy. I just now called and asked her whether it was on her computer or whether I could find it on the shared drive. She said, “Uh… it’s on my screen.” So I asked her to just email me the file. She said, “Uh… okay… I’ll see if I can do that…” It’s been ten minutes and no file yet.

    She is incapable of learning anything new, is immune to being fired due to my company’s culture (you can’t fire a nice person who is trying their hardest), and doesn’t retire for at least five more years.

    My question to everyone is, from a professional ethics standpoint, at what point would it be reasonable to strangle her and hide her body in the woods?

    1. Is it Friday Yet?*

      LOL But all kidding aside, that is annoying.

      Has she been offered training on this?

      1. Retail HR Guy*

        No, but a remedial computer course for her might make sense. They can’t be that expensive.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Wouldn’t be shocked if she put “Proficient in Microsoft Excel” on her résumé…

    4. Retail HR Guy*

      Update: I just received the file and the sum at the bottom are not actually formulas. She did the math herself and typed in the total manually as a numerical field.

      This woman has worked in an office environment for at least the last 18 years.

      2. Rocky*

        I feel for you. One of the worst work disasters we ever had here was caused by someone doing an a-z sort of one column instead of the whole table.

      3. Rebecca*

        I’m pretty sure that killing your direct reports would result in endless paperwork, probably an anger management class, and you may experience a dock in your pay. Just kidding!

        This is really unacceptable. Do you have anyone who can sit down with her and show her at least how to use the auto sum feature? She is probably wasting a lot of time doing things manually that she could automate, and be much more accurate and productive. Send her to a class.

        For what it’s worth, our office had one of these people. I tried to show her how to do things in Excel, simple things, and she just said “oh, I don’t need to know that, you’re here, so I can always just ask you”. When our company was purchased, she was one of the first to be let go.

      5. Sadsack*

        Is excel something she has ever used before though? My admin is a whiz at many things, but doesn’t use excel at all in her work. She’d probably have no clue what to do if I asked for a simple calculation.

      6. the gold digger*

        She did the math herself and typed in the total manually as a numerical field.

        The first time I had to update a ppt file that someone sent me – I had never worked in ppt before – I could not get the little check boxes to the left of the items to line up after I updated the items.

        So I held a ruler to the screen of the computer as a guide while I tried to drag the little boxes into position.

        Lord. Have. Mercy.

      7. Red Reader*

        I had the following exchange once with a friend, texting during the workday.

        Me: BRB, coworker needs Excel help.
        (45 minutes pass)
        Me: 45 minutes to show her how to add a column.
        Friend: But all you do is highlight them and click the sum button!
        Me: Not add up the column. Add a column. Like right click, “add column.”
        Friend: Oh. Oh jesus.

    5. Emily H.*

      That is hilarious, but also frustrating. I am still surprised sometimes by how computer illiterate some people can be (who work in jobs that involve pretty much 100% computer use). One of my former coworkers was once given a table in Excel in which to input some basic data in order to keep track of some cases. Just blank columns with headers at the top. She literally printed it out and started hand writing the information into the cells. She apparently did not understand that she could fill in all the information on the computer and save the document. She was in her mid-20s. This is the same person who helped me get by current job by asking “Do you want a job? Are you good with computers?” I never thought I was that amazing with computers, but you would be amazed at what you can learn on the Internet. She lasted about a year and I’ve been here 3.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      She is incapable of learning anything new

      This part makes me so sad. I never judge people for being tech-challenged or unknowledgeable about something, but I severely judge people who refuse to learn anything new, especially when that learning will benefit them, their co-workers, and their organization.

      1. Mirilla*

        I really agree with this. It’s one thing if you don’t know but it’s another if you don’t want to learn.

    7. Candi*

      It’s usually easier to contract these things out; the problem is how to expense it.

      Kidding aside, the math and type thing was something I did when I first learned Excel. In 1997. Owch.

      Sadly, this sounds like the teacher who taught that class. He only had a couple years until retirement, and I have no idea why he wound up teaching a college Excel course; absolutely clueless. The stories from that class alone are open thread fodder in and of themselves.

  156. Snazzy Hat*

    My father has been bugging me to contact the place where I thought I was going to be interviewed. (Mentioned in last week’s Open Thread; I received a voicemail hours after a job fair saying “we want you to come in, please call back with a time”, and after I left a voicemail and, two days later, sent an e-mail to the recruiter I haven’t received any word.) I’ve been really nervous about calling again because I don’t want to come across as desperate, clingy, needy, or any quality that would turn off an employer.

    And then it hit me. I never actually applied for the job. At the job fair, the recruiter told me about a position I would probably like based on my experience and strengths and whatnot. I was waiting for a response with the idea that I was given permission to circumvent normal protocol. While this might not have made a difference, I decided to make my intention official and fill out the application.

    I know “they won’t forget about you if you’re memorable”, so I really hope this doesn’t come around to bite me.

  157. Miss Betty*

    Ok, so negotiating. Thanks, those women who’ve successfully negotiated who responded to my comment the other day. Thinking back, I misspoke when I said I didn’t know any woman who’s negotiated without being punished* for it – I realized I’ve known one. Over 20 years ago, one of the two part-time receptionists where I worked told me she’d negotiated a 3-month review and raise for herself when they hired her. This was in an office that never, ever did that – you got your first review and raise after a year, period. I asked her how she managed that and she said she’d basically made it a condition of her accepting the job. Which is really cool, and I wish I’d remembered her the other day. I do know that she didn’t need the job – she took it to get out of the house when both her daughters were college age – was qualified for other, more advanced, positions but didn’t want them. She would have turned down the receptionist position if they hadn’t given her what she’d asked.

    (*Is punished the right word? It’s appropriate when someone has an offer rescinded because they tried to negotiate but perhaps it’s too strong for just being on the receiving end of “no”. I know I’m not the one who originally used that phrase the other day, but perhaps I should’ve reworded what I said. Still, being on the receiving end of “no” can certainly feel like punishment and it’s true that, other than the receptionist from 20 years ago, I don’t personally know any women who’ve successfully negotiated a better offer. It’s definitely possible I’ve worked with some but never knew. Among my friends and family members – definitely not.)

    Which leads me to – when you’re negotiating, does how aggressively you negotiate depend on whether you can afford to walk away from the offer? I’m assuming it is; it’s logical. But do any of you negotiate just as aggressively no matter how badly you need a job? I’m looking for another job but am employed full time so right now, I can afford to be picky. (Which is a nice contrast to the last time I was looking for a job, 9 years ago, unemployed at the start of the recession.) I would love to be someone who successfully negotiates a good salary but it’s never happened, not one time in my career. I think I’m probably too wimpy – I know I don’t like pushing back at people and never have. What advice do you successful negotiators have?

    1. Office Plant*

      Tone makes a big difference in negotiations. Be warm and friendly. Be confident. Say everything with a smile. Get straight to the point. And present it as a business decision, not something personal.

    2. Mreasy*

      I have never had anyone withdraw an offer because I asked for more money, and, frankly, I’m surprised when I hear that it happens. I have negotiated when I knew I would take even the initial offer, and I have negotiated and ultimately turned down a position when our numbers were too far apart. I am a really competitive candidate in my (very small & specialized) field, so I’m sure that has a huge bearing on my experience thus far.

  158. Lalaith*

    What do you do when a client simply will not respond to requests for information?

    I have a quarterly project which is coming up again at the end of the month. Prior to last quarter’s updates, the client asked about adding another piece onto the project, but ended up changing her mind and not giving me the data for it. I’m assuming that she’ll want it added in for this quarter, and I need extra time to build out the new piece, but I’ve emailed her several times since last quarter and she’s completely ignoring me (and my boss, who has also emailed her). I feel like it’s going to come down to our regular timeline and she’s going to want me to cram this extra work in, and I’m really trying to avoid that. Is there any way I can get her to reply?

    1. Beezus*

      No, but you can clearly communicate a deadline for getting you the information if she wants it included this quarter. Something like, “Hey Client, I just wanted to touch base with you about the BlahBlah we discussed adding to Project X last quarter. You haven’t yet mentioned if you want it added in for this quarter, but if you do, I need your data by [date] so I can get all the setup work done. If you still want to do it but are unable to meet that deadline, let me know and we can discuss plans to add it for First Quarter 2017 instead.”

      1. Rebecca*

        I’d call, just in case your messages are going to junk mail or being quarantined somehow, or ending up in the infamous clutter mailbox. I’ve had some weird things happen in the last few months. I’ve worked with one of my customers for 12 years now, and all of a sudden, every one of their emails went to junk mail one day, out of the blue. No idea why. So, glitches can occur. When it doubt, it’s always best to pick up the phone and talk to someone.

  159. Ruth*

    A few weeks ago, I interviewed with a small office (staff of 3), and ended up being offered the job. Less than 24 hours after receiving the offer and before I had accepted, I got news that a family member had had a stroke and was going into hospice care. I contacted the employer to let him know, and told him that I understood if he needed to hire someone while I traveled to my family member’s bedside, but if he was interested, I could keep him updated about my estimated return to the city. He agreed and told me to let him know as soon as possible when I thought I would be back.

    My family member spent 10 days on comfort care before finally passing away, and the day after her death, I received a form rejection email from the employer. I was too busy grieving and helping with funeral arrangements to think much of it at the moment, but now it’s been about a week since the funeral and I’m wondering what to do. Should I respond and ask about the email I received, or assume they have hired someone else and not respond at all? I tend to think that if an office with a staff that small purposefully sent me a form rejection email knowing the circumstances and after meeting me personally, it might be a bad sign about the kind of workplace it is, so I don’t think I’d want to ask them to notify me of openings in the future, but I’m open to changing that view. Thoughts?

    1. Ruth*

      I also wanted to mention that there were a few red flags that showed up in the interview as well, so this situation is not the only thing making me hesitant about this position, nor would I necessarily be heartbroken to be without the job when all is said and done.

    2. Graciosa*

      A rejection email is a rejection email – what are you planning to “ask” about?

      I don’t see that this is a bad sign because they met you personally and knew the circumstances. This is a business. Presumably they hit the point of moving on to another candidate, which is not surprising after a couple weeks. It probably seems like a short time to you – which is completely understandable – but the business may have viewed that delay differently.

      Personally, I’d probably just send a polite note indicating that I understood their decision and thanking them for their consideration.

      I am sorry for your loss.

      1. Ruth*

        Oh yes, absolutely: I’m not upset that they moved on and didn’t think it was particularly quick, either. I was only concerned that it was a form rejection letter, the wording of which seemed better suited for someone who had sent in an application and not gotten to the interview stage. I was kind of wondering if there had been some sort of oversight in sending me a form letter rather than responding to the email correspondence we had going about me needing to go out of town. Mostly, though, I was nervous about whether or not to respond and what to say, and you have given a great suggestion, thanks! My brain has been kind of a mess since this happened, and your help is much appreciated.

  160. Cassandra*

    Halp, O wise commenters!

    My workplace is planning to expand its offerings — not a pivot, but a strike out into previously-uncharted territory: let’s say, adding tea infusers to the existing teapot line.

    One person who strongly identifies with the teapot business fears a loss of status and resources because of the advent of infusers. This is, um, not strongly supported by the logic of our actual situation. The teapot market is shrinking, for no fault of ours; if we don’t expand somehow, we’re all, teapots and infusers alike, in serious medium-term trouble. Essentially, we’re getting into infusers in part because we need to subsidize the teapot business, which we (me included) still love and do not want to abandon!

    Because what I do is already pretty infuser-y (though I also have and enjoy teapot responsibilities), this worried person has unilaterally decided that I Am The Face Of The Enemy. I’m not, I swear! I value this person and their work, have zero interest in turf wars or resource grabs, and just want our workplace to survive! I’m not infuser-y AT them, I’m just infuser-y, it’s my thing, you know?

    How do I reassure this person? Minimally, how do I get rid of the Big Red Target they seem insistent on painting on my back?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Well, you can’t control how they perceive you. I think the best thing to do is be pleasantly professional–you don’t owe them placation or reassurance. It really sucks when someone thinks we have nefarious schemes up our sleeves, but it’s their issue, not ours. If you start having any pushback that affects your work, you can then approach your manager in a “Hmm, I’m having trouble getting timely responses from the Teapot Master, and I’m not sure what’s up” sense.

      Or, if you’re afraid of some sort of back-stabbing, you can give your manager a heads-up that you’re sensing some animosity from Teapot Master and would love any feedback on how to engage them better (if your work overlaps). That primes your boss to be on the lookout on your behalf (hopefully).

      Good luck with the infusers–a crucial niche of the teapot economy!

  161. Kristin*

    I just relocated to Los Angeles and I have a job interview Tuesday. A lot of my clothes are in storage but I did leave out some nice outfits for interviews. However I can’t find my blazer!

    Question – especially in hot weather, is it acceptable for me to wear black pants, a nice blouse, and a nice lightweight cardigan instead? The company is small and casual, and employees wear jeans to work.

    (I am a woman).

    1. Office Plant*

      I think so. It depends on the kind of job, but the west coast is more casual than the rest of the country. And there’s a weird reverse psychology that goes with it in some fields. Dressing a little casually can make you seem more confident, like someone who knows they’re qualified and isn’t a desperate job seeker. As long as your look is formal enough to be respectful of the occasion.

    2. Ultraviolet*

      Do you already have a blouse in mind? Depending on the cardigan and blouse, it’s possible that the outfit would look more casual with the cardigan than without. (I don’t have the experience to comment on the appropriateness of either.)

      1. Kerr*

        Agreed – it depends on the exact pieces, but cardigans often seem more casual than a nice blouse + pants. As a California native, if the employees are wearing jeans, you’re fine without a blazer/topper piece. Especially in this heat wave!

    3. CAA*

      In my experience, you don’t need a blazer to interview at a casual company in So Cal at any time of the year. You don’t even need the sweater unless you find yourself sitting underneath the air conditioning vent. Black pants and a blouse are my go-to interview outfit for casual environments, and it’s always been just fine.

  162. Looking Younger*

    I know this comes up on AAMA from time to time, but the advice hasn’t worked for me so far.

    People usually think I’m a lot younger than I really am. I’ve tried dressing more maturely or talking more formally, but that just gets read as, “young person who has conservative taste / went to good schools”. I want to be seen for who I am and respected for my actual level of experience. What can I do?

    1. Ultraviolet*

      In what specific ways is this coming up? (I mean, how are you becoming aware that people think you’re younger than you are?) That could help you (or us) figure out solutions.

      1. Looking Younger*

        It comes up in so many ways. I’m assumed to have less experience and knowledge than I actually do. I’m assumed to be in a different phase of life. It’s sureal. It extends beyond the workplace. Almost everyone I know thinks I’m in my early twenties, but I’m actually in my late thirties.

        1. Ultraviolet*

          Yeah, I have a similar problem and it sucks. I was trying to ask what situations it comes up in because you might want different responses when people say condescending things than when say something that implies they think you’re a student, or fail to consult you at work when they really should be making use of your expertise, or look at someone junior to you in a meeting because they assume you can’t possibly be the one in charge, etc. But I think I might have misunderstood the question–on reread it sounds to me like you were specifically asking for ways to look older. Unfortunately I don’t have any ideas beyond the usual.

          1. Looking Younger*

            Well, it’s partly my own doing. I could stop dying my hair (duh). It’s about half gray. But I prefer the way it looks dyed. I’m aiming for that middle ground where people know how old you are but you it isn’t blatantly obvious. So I guess that means talking about my age more.

    2. Sibley*

      My standard has become, “I’m older than I look. 10 years ago, it was annoying, but now it’s great!”

    3. Woman of a Certain Age*

      I’ve had this problem and am regularly told that I look 15 years younger than my real age. Always the ingenue. (I have good genes, use lots of sunscreen and regularly moisturize.) I’m now at the age where many people my age are taking early retirement. I am working at a middle-level job that is usually held by someone younger.

      Recently I was with a group of people and they started guessing everyone’s age. When they came to me one person guessed that I was 20 years younger than my actual age, but added that I looked “tough” for my age. I guess I’ll start shopping at “Chico’s.”

      Hopefully, in the future I’ll be able to work a bit past age 65.

      2. Looking Younger*

        Yeah, I used to have fun with it. It gets old (no pun intended) after a while.

        I tried career couneling (yeah, I know) and both counselors, even after ostensibly reading my resume, counseled me as though I was fresh out of college and exaggerating my level of experience! They were very condescending. These were people I was paying.

        In professional settings, I’m told I need to respect the “seniority” of people who are ten years younger, and it always comes up in situations where I don’t get to respond.

        People comment on my social media posts calling me “young lady” and giving me the kind of advice and encouragement you’d give to someone much younger. Some of these people are my age. The fact that this is public just perpetuates the whole myth. I’m kind of private on social media so I don’t know what to do about it except appreciate the good side of it.

        And dating . . . There are always concerned friends and strangers.

        I guess I just need to get more pro-active about telling people how old I am. I need some standard, “Back in my day . . . ” phrases or something. I have tried telling people how many years of experience I have and I just get, “Oh, you must have been a cute little teapot designer! How good of your parents to encourage you.”

    4. Sutemi*

      I have the same issue. One thing I have done is to casually drop my age or the duration I’ve been doing things into watercooler conversations if it makes sense. “You’re gluten free? Oh, food allergies are so tough. I never had any until I was 36 but now I have to read the labels on everything” “Weekend plans? We are going out for a really nice dinner for our 14th wedding anniversary”

  163. Trix*

    I’ve been asked what I want included in my departments budget next year, and I know I won’t get everything, or probably even a lot of it, but I was told to think as big as I can. If I don’t ask, I definitely won’t get it.

    Anyone have anything that you didn’t ask for, then later wished you had?

    One thing I’d like to ask for (and this is definitely a smaller thing, so it’s very possible I could get this) is some kind of collaboration software or tools for my team. Anyone have any favorites? I’m thinking something like Confluence, Slack, Asana, Jive, something like that.

    1. CAA*

      These are not really the same kinds of tools and which one is best for your team depends on what you need help with the most.
      – Confluence and Jive are primarily wikis. They’re good for collecting and organizing documents and information.
      – Slack is a chat/messaging tool similar to Hipchat. These are mainly for recording events and thoughts in a “stream of consciousness” format.
      – Asana is a project and task tracking system.
      If you need all of the above, get Asana + Confluence with the Asana integration plug-in + Slack. There are free or nearly free versions of all of these too, so if your budget request gets shut down, you could still go with the free versions.

      Another thing to look at is workstation or laptop upgrades. If you have anybody on an older system, or if anybody could benefit from having dual monitors or larger monitors, make sure to add those in. Sometimes it’s easier to get hardware than software because of the way capital budgets and depreciation work.

      And training. Try to get a reasonable training budget per person and then allow your team members to choose how they spend that money on their own professional development. Maybe some want to go to a conference, others want to take a class, or a few want to pool their money to bring in a speaker. Give them ideas, but let them make the choice as much as possible.

  164. Dzhymm*

    Am I the only one who sees the word “nonprofit” in an AAM letter and mentally substitutes “dysfunctional organization”?

    2. Ennismore*

      In my experience it’s sectoral but because of the lack of governance and structure. And also due to non-profit Boards who might be made up of very pleasant people but ones who often know little/nothing about how to ‘run’ an organisation. Although they hire managers in to do it (I’m one of them!) there can be a lack of appropriate structures, boundaries, direction….they sometimes forget it’s about delivering on a mission efficiently rather than just patting each other on the back for having a cool mission.

    3. Felicia*

      I currently work for a very functional non profit, and worked previously for a very dysfunctional for profit, so it really varies based on a lot of different factors.

  165. Dodge*

    Hi Everyone,

    I work in aviation and have a question on using communication in the workplace. Not so much on face-to-face, but more the digital kind. The reason I ask is that sometimes plans change OR we get the go-ahead to finish then ship a teapot engine and now a chain of people in different departments need to act accordingly. We fail so hard at this and I’m tired of my stressed out boss. Anyway we use Outlook for email and everyone has a smartphone but is there some software out there that can help? I would love to hear any tips or tricks ya’ll have.

    Also, are there any IFS users in the house? We will be changing soon and I am curious to hear other experiences with it. We move a lot of stock and I’m told it’s great for that.

    Thanks!

    1. Office Plant*

      Project-specific folders

      Standardized subject lines (ie asking everyone to put the name of the project in the subject line)

      Project-specific aliases (ie engine2design at company dot com)

      IM like Slack can be helpful, but it also splits the conversation between two places.

      There are probably also apps that help you search and organize emails.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Sorry, I missed this last night. It sounds like what you’re looking for is Project Management software.

      Basically you can create a task list – either individual to the project or by using/modifying a template you create for similar types of projects – and assign those tasks to individual people, and set predictive deadlines against them. Tasks are set up as dependent on various things (that you can choose) and then when one is marked off, it launches the next person’s task as now being ready to be worked on. With many of them, you can comment on the individual tasks to update status and tag the people who need to see it. If you Google “Project Management Software” you’ll find a bunch of options, including reviews – articles that compare and discuss what might be best for your org depending on what you’re looking for, etc.

  166. Annie*

    I was invited to join my community college’s chapter of Phi Theta Kappa. From what I’ve heard, it’s just like Phi Beta Kappa, except it’s for 2-year colleges.
    I’m unsure about joining because it costs $75 to join, my parents are afraid it’s a scam, and I’m not sure I’ll actually make use of the member-exclusive scholarships since I’m currently on the fence about going to a four-year college once I finish my Associate’s degree. (Many of the listed scholarships appear to be open to nonmembers.)
    If I join, how much good would it do me to mention the Phi Theta Kappa membership on my resume?
    If I don’t join, how much good would it do me to mention that I was selected for/invited to Phi Theta Kappa?
    I’ll mention this in case it makes a difference: I’m a computer programming major, this is my second to last semester before I graduate with my Associate’s, and the community college is state-run (public).

    1. Office Plant*

      In my experience, that sort of thing doesn’t make much of a difference, but you never know.

    2. MissGirl*

      It’s not something you would include on a resume unless you took on leadership or responsibilities that would speak to experience. Ask around and see if it’s a good social or networking thing. I got an invite to the National Honor Society and it was a similar gig. The scholarships were too few or open to other people. I could put my GPA on my resume without needing to add a membership.

    3. Graciosa*

      As a hiring manager, this isn’t something that I would care about.

      I’m not sure I see this making a difference to you unless you got *really* involved in it to the point of being able to claim something as an accomplishment (Pres. of your chapter, spearheaded new charity project that raised $X for Noble Cause).

    4. Wrench Turner*

      I’m Phi Theta Kappa. It’s a nice little pin to have. I’m proud of the accomplishment of good grades, etc.
      That’s about it. It’s a line on my resume but has not come up in the 8 years since.

  167. Get a Haircut*

    You guys- after one crazy, crazy stretch… I may actually have a temp job. The pay is abysmal… but it’s something, right? Meanwhile, I can keep up the hunt without guilt. I think I’d be more excited if it paid better, but the pay was phrased as “this is what it pays”, so I didn’t negotiate. Maybe my bad… but I can always try negotiating next time.

  168. Anon for this question*

    So I’d like to know everybody’s opinion on this.

    Background: Myself (teapot production manager), our in-house teapot sales manager, and client’s teapot purchasing manager are all on an email chain hamming out specifics of “teapot sale’s agreement”. I get an email from my sale’s manager (and CC’ing the client) saying “Blah blah blah blah specifics, [my name] please advise on the total price”.

    I email the sales manager back (leaving the client off the email) saying “Well the price range we’re talking about is 37% higher than what we’re publicly advertising online, are you sure you want me to quote the up-charge to such a large client?”

    I get a reply back from sales manager (WITH THE CLIENT CC’D ON WHAT I WROTE!!!!) saying “Please keep [client’s first name] CC’d on all emails so they’re kept in the loop. Please advise”.

    My reply all email was “I’d advise you not to CC [client] when we’re discussing whether or not to up-charge them.”

    The client didn’t reply, and I got a *very* angry phone call from the sales manager. Apparently, she didn’t read what I had actually sent her, and just replied back to me once she saw that the client wasn’t copied on the email.

    What do I do from here?

    1. animaniactoo*

      How did you leave it with the sales manager? Did you tell her that you expect her to read what you’ve written before replying, PARTICULARLY if you’ve left the client off – on the assumption that you might have left them off for a good reason?

      Otherwise – I think you leave it on her to kiss ass and offer a more reasonable upcharge to the client in the hopes of retaining their business.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Oh, and you do apologize to her for handling it the way you did – which was guaranteed to cause her a huge chunk of embarrassment by calling her out on that with the client in the loop. Cuz you should have picked up the phone and said “Can you explain why you think the client should be looped in when we’re discussing their upcharge?” and given her the courtesy of not demonstrating to the client that her co-worker thinks she’s an idiot.

      2. animaniactoo*

        You do also need to apologize to the sales manager. Because while she pulled a bonehead move, you owed her the courtesy of a phone call to say “Can you explain why you think the client should be looped in on our upcharge discussion?” rather than demonstrating to the client that her coworker thinks she’s a rank idiot. That’s uber humiliating. You were wrong for it.

        1. Marcela*

          Honestly, if she’s not reading the email thread, she is behaving like a rank idiot, OP’s reply or not.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Yeah, but there’s a difference between doing that on your own and your co-workers proving they know it “out loud” too.

      3. TheLazyB*

        Yeah I think replying all including the client was a bad move. She should have read the email but bloody hell.

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      Apparently, she didn’t read what I had actually sent her, and just replied back to me once she saw that the client wasn’t copied on the email.
      What do I do from here?

      Envision yourself pointing at her and laughing. Imagine the client throwing a martini in the sales manager’s face. My goodness. It sucks the sales manager yelled at you for something that was her fault; at least the client (as of press time) doesn’t see you as the one who screwed up.

    3. Office Plant*

      I think it’s on her. You could have handled it more professionally, but she created the situation. You have two options: 1) Ignore the whole thing and move on. Act like nothing happened. 2) Call her or have a face to face conversation to smooth things over, not dwelling on the incident, just preserving your professional relationship. Give it a few days and then invite her out for lunch or stop by her office with cookies, whatever seems friendly and appropriate. You want it to become the kind of thing that you both can laugh about as a mutual mistake that you recovered from. Or, if she is difficult to work with and does this kind of thing regularly, just distance yourself.

    4. CAA*

      If you included the client on the reply that says “I’d advise you not to …” then that was unprofessional and you made a bad situation worse.

      You also need a process to prevent these things from happening in the future. Can you work with the sales team to come to an agreement that a subject line that starts with “INTERNAL” will never be forwarded to the client? Or that you’ll always pick up the phone and talk when there are similar concerns in the future?

      1. Mreasy*

        The way we tend to do it in my office is a simple “unlooping X and Y” before proceeding on an email thread with anyone removed. But in a situation like the above, you’d think it would be obvious that the client was taken off & why!

  169. Bowserkitty*

    a frustrating thing, an infuriating thing, and a possibly hopeful thing (so we end on a good note):

    – Had an interview yesterday with my old company for another department. Did not get a good vibe from the interviewers or about the job. Coming out of the conference room after the interview, I ran into my old boss. I greeted her and said hi cheerfully. She barely said hi and pretty much snubbed me, kept walking. I high-tailed it out of there.

    – Today I found out unemployment is claiming I owe them almost $900 because they say I “incorrectly reported [my] vacation pay” for the first two weeks I was filing claims, which began the last week of August. Except…I didn’t even KNOW I’d be receiving vacation pay until two weeks ago. And that amount was gross, because when it was deposited last Friday it was several hundred less than stated in the letter. I’m livid. In the weekly form it asks for the amount you received that week, and up until last week I hadn’t received a single thing. I’m trying to calm back down, because I put in the appeal and there’s nothing that will be done over the weekend, but it still pisses me off.

    – Finally, I had an email from a company HR rep this morning asking if I would be available for a phone call. It went well and I’m hoping I get an interview next week. The funny thing is that they’re the rival of another company I used to work for, but that may be what made my resume stand out.

    1. Candi*

      I think the UI thing is likely a combination of red tape and automatically throwing stuff out in the hopes some people will pay instead of questioning. Best of luck on that.

      Hope you get the interview and the job. :)

  170. Chaordic one*

    I turned down a job offer this past week. The job was located in the actual teapot manufacturing plant, although it was more of an administrative position. However, the entire building had the most awful smell coming from the manufacturing area, a horrible ammonia odor. I suppose I’m partly imagining it, but I left the interview feeling like I was covered with a film of I don’t know what. I could probably call OSHA on them. I don’t think it was a healthy environment.

    Anyway, I’ve got another interview lined up for Monday. The person who called me for the interview is someone I’ve never met before but she’ll be part of the interview team and she has a very good reputation in the community, so it sounds like a real possibility.

    1. BobcatBrah*

      Well ammonia is used in manufacturing certain things, as well as a cleaning solution. I suppose it would more helpful for us to know what is actually being produced there.

  171. ChickenBiscuit*

    What to do when all your staff dislike you? I only have a team of two but both dislike me – one because he applied for my job, didn’t get it, and will forever be bitter/hostile……and the other because they don’t like having issues around their work discussed in a constructive way (think shouty teenager style behaviour).

    I don’t need them to be my best friend but I need to not work in such a hostile environment for my own sanity! There are no managers over me (report to a non-profit Board) and efforts to resolve this through ordinary channels are just met with….more hostility. Any creative solutions out there?

    1. BobcatBrah*

      I think you can probably actually work with the guy that’s bitter and write it off as one of those things that doesn’t need to immediately be addressed.

      The person who cannot maturely accept feedback is the bigger issue. You need to have a discussion with them about how you expect them to respond to feedback, and if they don’t improve, then they need to be replaced. If you can’t actually manage performance, then there’s nothing to be done with them.

      1. Office Plant*

        I think the bitter person is the bigger issue. That suggests an attitude of entitlement. Or a lack of life experience. The person who can’t handle feedback might just be insecure. The problem might go away with more positive feedback or a different way of delivering the constructive feedback. But it’s hard to say without knowing the people.

    2. Office Plant*

      I hate to say it, but there are a lot of nice people out there looking for jobs. I would reframe the whole thing in terms of actual behavior – how they do their jobs and how they treat you. Take notes about it. Look at it objectively. Then try to address it. If things don’t get better, replace them with people who can treat others decently, which should be a minimum requirement for any job.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        Seconding the Plant. Set expectations, take notes of them meeting/failing those expectations and be ready to find replacements.

  172. Wrench Turner*

    Shadowing someone at the New Job on my first week as an official Apprentice. I’m seeing all kinds of shortcuts in quality control (nothing safety-related, fortunately) and time sheet fudging that are making me uncomfortable. He tells me over and over, “This is how everyone does it, everyone knows everyone does it, including the bosses, but nobody says anything.”

    I’m a by-the-book guy, especially when the book is literally just a step by step cell phone app checklist of things to do. It’s not hard. I’m not as fast as I should and eventually will be because it’s all still so new, but this guy blazes through because he skips the details and just fills them in all later, just making up quality control points.

    When I eventually meet with the boss and he asks me “How did it go? What did observe? What did you learn?” I’m not sure how I should answer.

    1. BobcatBrah*

      Well, they put you with the guy for a reason. They likely want you to learn the shortcuts not related to safety.

    2. Snazzy Hat*

      As someone who takes extensive notes when learning a new system or task, I understand the awkwardness of not going by the book. Would saying “I learned there are a lot of shortcuts that can be used” or “with all of the shortcuts involved, I can see getting things done as quickly as possible is very important around here” feel dishonest or confrontational to you? What if you added, “and that might take some getting used to because I prefer to [stick to the manual/read my notes/make sure I’m doing things correctly when I’m still learning]”?

  173. Question*

    When applying to jobs, if there isn’t a separate section for cover letters, should it be included with the resume? (Or is there an odd chance that they don’t want a cover letter?)

    1. Snazzy Hat*

      I’ve come across the following situations and solutions:

      1) Upload your resume and any other documents. -> Upload cover letter.
      2) Text box which asks if there are any other things the employer should know about why you would be a good fit for the position. -> Copy & paste cover letter, or write something like a short cover letter.
      3) Upload only one document. -> Upload a combined resume & cover letter.
      4) Upload your resume… fill out the application… and… surprise, you can’t upload anything else! -> Resign to that fact or call the place (I’ve only done this once and it was for a “why not?” application) and say I’d like to also send in a cover letter & ask to whom I should send it.

      I’m always wary of applications that don’t give you the opportunity to talk about why you want the job and would excel in it. Maybe I’m bitter, but I think a cover letter is a great way to show professional personality.

    2. Chaordic one*

      I have a pretty standard 2-page resume that I use for most things I apply for. When I’ve run into this situation, what I do is add the cover letter to my resume as a third page and then upload the entire 3-page document into the slot for resumes.

  174. Mimmy*

    Also regarding cover letters – The application I’m working on requires a cover letter, separate from the resume and references list. I forgot how long it’s been since I’ve even done a cover letter! I’m not even sure what the accepted format is anymore, especially if it’s just getting uploaded into the ATS. Obviously you address the hiring manager and lay out your qualifications, but in the past, I’ve put the employer’s address above the salutation. I guess I would put the address of the ultimate hiring manager, not the HR department, right?

    1. Sparkly Librarian*

      I haven’t put a snail-mail address on a cover letter submitted by email/ATS since before 2000. (But I always write cover letters.) I think you’ll be fine as long as you mention the job title near the beginning, in case it somehow is printed and also separated from the person who knows why they printed it.

  175. Anonny non non me!*

    I’m at BEC mode with everything at my workplace not my immediate coworkers. Too many changes in too little time with no thought given to the execution on the ground. Need to get up the will to job hunt long-distance (not in my preferred location, need to sell my house).

    Don’t really need advice, just venting. LOL. Maybe next week I’ll have updates on the search.

Comments are closed.