open thread – July 26, 2024

by Alison Green on July 26, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. depressed*

    How do you bounce back from a job rejection, especially when you were a finalist? Usually, I can convince myself that the job wasn’t the best fit anyway, or that another equally good opportunity will come along in the future — but I’m really struggling to do that in this case.

    The job would have been a university staff role on a team with very low turnover (literally, the last person in this role was there for *20 years*). I genuinely don’t expect that another role like this will open up in the near future. I have a perfectly fine job now, but this would have been a big, exciting step up, with pathways for future promotion, and the disappointment is hitting me hard.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      I’m really sorry, I know it can be hard. This may not help, but being a finalist is a BIG accomplishment, and it may have been a really difficult decision for them. It’s good to allow yourself space to feel sad/mad/frustrated/etc. as long as you’re doing it in a healthy way (i.e. no angry emails to the employer, obviously). Giving those emotions time to process is how we move on from them. And it’s good to remember that just because this job may not open up again soon something else could present itself and open a new opportunity you never even thought of!

      2. Goldenrod*

        “just because this job may not open up again soon something else could present itself and open a new opportunity you never even thought of!”

        Yes, this. You never know what is coming next, and being a finalist means a lot.

        My husband was severely disappointed about a job that he didn’t get (after being one of the final two). But he ended up getting a job that, in retrospect, was way better. So while the disappointment is hard in the moment, you never know what even better opportunity is just around the corner.

    2. Firefly*

      I’ve been in that spot a few times – it’s hard! One thing that my therapist had me work through with an early disappointment was to make a list of the aspects of that job that I was really disappointed to miss out on, and see what could possibly be added to my current job or my life in the next 1-5 years. One job I was sad to miss paid for part of your masters and gave you a year leave; I ended up finding a part time option that fit around my work. Another one had a lot of presenting opportunities, and I convinced my boss to let me plan and run several internal trainings that led to conference presentations. Good luck!

      1. depressed*

        Thanks, this is good advice. It doesn’t apply to this situation, since what I was looking forward to specifically was working with faculty, and there’s no way to do that outside of higher ed. But I’ll keep it in mind for future rejections.

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          Depends on what you mean by working with faculty. I work for a public agency that gets involved in a lot of research. Staff in federal and nonprofit entities end up working with faculty on the research side, at least: organizing around problem statements, identifying teams that can tackle the research problem, recruiting subject matter experts to serve on advisory panels, organizing national conferences, presentations, webinars. Not a lot of student-related contact, plenty of the intellectual work. What were you hoping for?

          1. depressed*

            That sounds interesting. I’m guessing you work in science or public policy, maybe? I’m an arts and humanities person, and working with faculty in those fields would have been a core part of this job. It’s hard to imagine that there are many ways to interact with faculty in those fields outside of academia.

              1. depressed*

                I left the museum field due to lack of jobs — besides, museum staff don’t really interact with faculty — trust me on that :)

    3. Someone stole my croissant*

      I feel you. I was a finalist for a nice job, nice wage, nice benefits… and didn’t get it.
      Practice gratitude, and help the people around you. Focus on building new skills. Learn a new language. Being bilingual is something employers love!

    4. Sloanicota*

      Solidarity. There was a chance for me to get a role that would have been a slam dunk for my (kinda niche) experience and would have suddenly made me an Important Person career-wise. It did not pan out. On one hand I’m almost relieved, as it would have involved a move and I’m not sure I actually want the increased stress of being Important, but mostly it’s making me realize how unsatisfied I am in my current role, which I feel very stuck in since I so rarely see opportunities that are a improvement. Extra self care for the next week or so!

    5. Having a Scrummy Week*

      This just happened to me and it was ALSO a university staff role. I was looking forward to having better benefits, more vacation time, and an in-person role (I am struggling in a remote role). It would have actually been a huge pay cut for me but would bring me closer to the simple life work-life balance I want.

      I give myself two days to mourn the loss of the job and then move on. It helped that they sent me a boilerplate HR rejection template instead of calling me or at LEAST sending a personalized email from the hiring manager. That made me lose some respect for them.

      1. depressed*

        Ew, how rude. At least in this case, the hiring manager had the courtesy to email me.

    6. SwimmingOneDay*

      This is me right now too. It’s tough! I made the mistake of thinking “My /real/ life will start when I get this job, which I’m so excited about because it’ll mean I can [work on my dream interest/have time for swim lessons/stop working on this current project I hate/etc].” And so of course, that means that when the rejection came, I didn’t just lose the job, I lost this whole future I created in my head. Allison’s advice of not getting attached is one I try to emulate but is so hard to do, and I definitely failed here. I don’t have good advice but am following this thread because solidarity! I’m trying to take care of myself – including signing up for those swim lessons.

      1. Goldenrod*

        “I didn’t just lose the job, I lost this whole future I created in my head.”

        I can relate to this! You have to perform such mental gymnastics in this situation. You really do have to project yourself mentally into the future, imagining yourself actually in the job, in order to convey enthusiasm in order to do well in the interview.

        At the same time, you have to be able to pull back emotionally at a moment’s notice.

        It’s really hard!

    7. Aelstuart*

      I’m a therapist and trying not to sound too therapistsy in my response, but I’m curious how much you’re really allowing yourself to acknowledge how disappointed you are. I’d argue that it’s pretty important to really own how heartbroken we are over something that didn’t work out, whether it’s a job, a romantic partner, etc.

      If we minimize it with “well, it wasn’t that great of a job anyway” or similar, we are just dismissing our very real, important feelings about it. And it’s hard to get over something if we are downplaying it to ourselves.

      What if we really owned up to how we felt? What if we said, “That was a really amazing person/job/etc. I’m sad/upset/angry that it didn’t work out”?

      Sitting in that uncomfortable feeling is hard. But sitting it in without talking down about the object of our grief is a great first step in being able to move forward.

      It was a great opportunity. It’s incredibly disappointing it didn’t workout. What would you like to do now? What gives you hope? Take some time to grieve first and then ask yourself these things so you can start to move forward.

      Take care.

      1. depressed*

        Thanks, I am definitely feeling the feelings, lol. I’ve been crying all week like I just got dumped! I think I’m thrown because this is the first time I’ve been this upset about a job rejection. Part of it is probably due to some self-image stuff — I’m a former PhD and this felt like my one chance to get back into a role that interacts with faculty, so it feels especially disappointing.

        1. Rainy*

          PhD programs convince you that every job is the last job that will ever come up, because a lot of times that’s how it goes for TT faculty positions, but even in higher ed admin (student affairs, academic affairs, whatever) that’s just not true. Depending on how niche it is, maybe they don’t come up that *often*, but outside of faculty positions, it’s never the last job ever. There will be other jobs!

          1. Dr. QT*

            Just to chime in, unlike with faculty jobs, your chances for getting the type of job you want doesn’t get less likely the longer you don’t have that specific job. Plenty of higher ed jobs are happy to hire people with PhDs because they’ve spent years in the system but are also delighted that you have other work experience.

    8. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I’m so sorry, it hurts when this happens. I think Firefly’s suggestion about thinking about what you can add to your life is a great one—it sort of flips the rejection a little bit by focusing on what you can control.

      In the past, I’ve tried to give myself a little time to mourn, and then move on to the next application. The faster you can move onto applying for other jobs, the better, I think. Also, for what it’s worth: roles that really do seem perfect from the outside may not be! I think it’s so easy to idealize a role we aren’t yet in. Last summer I was a finalist for a job in my city’s government, they even called my references, and then I didn’t get the job…I was completely heartbroken. I’d really gotten myself set on this role, the idea of good retirement benefits, good work-life balance. A year on, I’m SO relieved I didn’t get the job. The head of the dept I would’ve been in was very publicly laid off, and the mayor is forcing everyone to come back in the office 5 days a week. I was in tears at the time, but I really dodged a bullet and wound up landing a much better role. I’m sure it will work out for you too!

      1. depressed*

        Thanks, this is a good point — of the rejections I can remember, I always ended up thinking later that it was a good thing that I didn’t get the job, because it would have meant moving to a place I wasn’t sure I wanted to live, or because I ended up with a much better job offer shortly after, etc. Maybe I’ll feel the same about this job in 6 months.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          There might be another job open up in the same place that you will like even better, and that they will like you better for being a finalist in the last one.

          But yes, you’re definitely allowed to whine!

    9. HR Exec Popping In*

      Please remember, while this may FEEL like a failure, it is not. You were clearly qualified and a good candidate. Someone else was just a better fit for what they need right now. It could be for a million reasons. They have some other skill that they were not looking for, but realize would be a big help and gets the other candidate effectively bonus points. I am a big believer in not focusing on the past. On what could have been. And instead focus on the current here and now as well as the future – what might be. So put this in the rear view mirror and look forward. Try not to compare future opportunities to this one and slide back into “if only…” and instead think “only if…”. Good luck!

    10. Clementine*

      It might or might not be possible, but this reaction suggests to me that you might be open to a huge shake-up in your life. Maybe a move, a new study pursuit, writing a book or creating art, new relationships? Of course right now the possibility to have a political impact might be significant.

    11. AnotherLibrarian*

      The best way I’ve found to get over a job I didn’t get is to apply for other jobs. Once I have three or four applications out there, it helps me let go of the ones that I didn’t hear from/didn’t get. It also helps for me to give myself space to mourn. I am disappointed. It sucks. As my therapist would tell me- acknowledge, sit with the uncomfortable feelings, and then take concrete steps. Also, there will be other jobs. Maybe not this exact job, but there will be others.

      Another trick that helps me is to look for all the problems the job could have had. Since I’ve worked in Unis for most of my life, I just imagine that a specific faculty member I used to have to deal with might work there. He routinely made people cry by screaming at them, but also brought in huge multi-million dollar grants and therefore was untouchable. Such a jerk.

      Might not be the healthiest coping strategy, but it helps me.

    12. Also Rejected*

      I was there earlier this year, I was one of two finalists to found a new department at a fancy ivy league school that you’ve definitely heard of, and they went with the other (internal) candidate. It hit me a lot harder than I expected! Give it time, plan something enjoyable to do, keep applying for things that sound interesting. It just takes time.

      DON’T become one of those people who is so paralyzed by a rejection they never move forward at all. Do whatever you need to to make sure that doesn’t happen.

    13. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Same this week for a university job – there must be something in the water.

      I gave myself an entire day to Have Feelings About It, by the end of which I had had their feedback. It was for a job where nobody they can afford would have all the desirable skills and experience. They chose someone with particularly strength where I don’t have experience, which made it feel considerably less like I had failed. They also picked out a couple of things I had done very well and strongly encouraged me to look out for future vacancies.

      Have you sought or received feedback? It can feel humiliating in the moment but if they say literally anything at all constructive then it can help with the reframing.

      Also they have horrible taste and don’t deserve you, OBVIOUSLY.

    14. BikeWalkBarb*

      An analogy from a former stage mom: Best acting advice my musical theater daughter ever got was to recognize that they’re almost never casting *you* for the part. They’re casting *someone who fits in with the rest of the decisions they’ve already made*. She brings characteristics that aren’t that uncommon (think “pretty white girl with long brown hair who can sing”). So if if they already have too many who look like her they won’t cast another one. Truly not at all personal.

      In this case a team with very low turnover has a lot of those decisions already made and they’re fitting someone into a pretty well-defined outline carved by that 20-year veteran, which you didn’t match. Or they seeking to really change it up (which would kind of surprise me in higher ed, having worked on the administration side for nearly 15 years) and they don’t know what “change it up” looks like but you’re a lot like the 20-year veteran so you don’t represent enough of a shift. I’m making both ends of the spectrum up, obviously, hoping the general idea of “it’s not me, it’s them” feels helpful.

      Good luck taking care of yourself to get through this hard part and set your sights on the next set of opportunities.

    15. kalli*

      If the last person was there doing that for 20 years, what the hell kind of pathway to promotion is there anyway?

      1. Promotion*

        Not all jobs have a pathway to promotion.

        I’ve recruited for a lot of roles where my response to the ‘what would be my career progression opportunities’ question was ‘you’ll leave here with great skills, experience and a strong reference’ and told them about what some of our former staff have done.

    16. DannyG*

      Went through a similar situation a few years ago. Drove 450 miles for a final round interview. Had all of the licenses and certifications. Really thought I knocked it out of the park. Got a txt on the way home saying that they had gone with the other candidate. Two weeks later I interviewed with their competitor for essentially the same position. Was hired, have been promoted twice and was selected to be part of a small team running a cutting edge project. The other position has been open twice since then. Sometimes things work out.

  2. Somehow I Manage*

    Just curious about something kind of fun this morning. What’s the strangest/worst question you’ve been asked in an interview?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It wasn’t a bad question, but it was a bit strange:

      “A penguin shows up at your door wearing a sombrero. Where did he come from and what does he want?”

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        OK, I’ll bite. What’s the context in which that was asked, and more importantly, how did you answer?

        1. ThatGirl*

          It was just a silly question they liked to throw in to see how people’s creative thinking process worked, I think. I said he had escaped from the zoo and wanted some guacamole.

          2. DogFace Boy*

            I would have said there was only one way to find out, and that was to ask the penguin. You have to be careful not to make any assumptions about people- or about penguins.

        2. Sloanicota*

          Haha I was like dang I should have memorized more about the South American penguins in Chile/Patagonia/Argentina – maybe one was on a walking tour or something …

      2. Festively Dressed Earl*

        He wandered over from the mascot-challenged taco truck parked outside our complex, he’s hot, decided to take a dip in the apartment’s pool, and would like to borrow a towel. I give him one.

      4. BikeWalkBarb*

        Misplaced extra from The Penguins of Madagascar looking for the costume department to get the right clothing for the next scene.

        Or they’re seeking to audition for a sequel to Happy Feet set in Patagonia.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      “Kirk or Picard, who was the better captain?”

      For the record, I answered “The Sisko” and got the job.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Seriously. Kirk was not a great captain in so many ways.

          HQ: “You did what?”

          Kirk: “Well, we seem to have lost control of the ship.”

          HQ: “Again?”

          Kirk: “I guess? Maybe? Anyway, there was this hot chick, and….”

          HQ: “Say no more.”

            1. Peanut Hamper*

              Lol! I may have to write a blog post about this and also make a Bingo game for all of Kirk’s behaviours.

              In hind sight, he was pretty bad, for so many reasons.

              And now I have an excuse to watch TOS all over again.

      2. UnCivilServant*

        Not enough context. What situation are we talking about? Each had different skillsets and different strengths.

      4. Mephyle*

        How would you handle that one in an interview if all you know is that it’s a Star Trek reference, and no more?

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          If all I knew was that, I might say, “well, they must both have been pretty good, because I have heard of both of them and I don’t even watch Star Trek or know anything about it!”

        2. Star Trekkin’ (across the universe)*

          “Hmm. I’m not familiar with either of them, but I’m going to say the one who realizes that pop culture references are a form of gatekeeping would be a better captain because they have a better grasp of diversity in hiring.”

          1. Star Trekkin’ (across the universe)*

            (…but ftr, it’s Picard. I love Sisko, but I don’t want a boss who is so involved with the local religious fanatics)

            1. Boldly going forward 'cause we can't find reverse!*

              as a kid I couldn’t stand the original Star Trek because it all looked so fake and I was too cool for television when the Next Generation originally aired, so I would have been at a complete loss as to how to answer the question.

              but, Star Trekkin was one of my favorite novelty songs of the 80s.

              1. Momma Bear*

                Now I have that stuck in my head.

                “It’s worse than that, he’s dead, Jim!”

            2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

              Also Picard can communicate with people who speak entirely in pop culture references, so would be a good fit for this job!

          2. Scriveaaa*

            Ooof maybe don’t go with this one. No good human asking this question is truly trying to gatekeep. They’re just trying to make the interview a little less formal, and potentially get a sense of your personality. A better choice would be:

            “Hmm, I’m not very familar with either of them. I’m a big fan of [insert TV show, hobby, etc], though. Are there a lot of Star Trek fans in the office?”

            Just keep the convo moving. No need to drop a blame-bomb.

            1. John*

              Yeah, I think ST(atu)’s response is fine if you’re being interviewed for an HR or DEI role, but otherwise it comes off as incredibly adversarial. Like maybe they’ll rethink the question but they definitely won’t hire you.

              1. Star Trekkin’ (across the universe)*

                Oof indeed. It was a joke; I would not seriously suggest using it as an interviewee.

                However, if you’re in a hiring role, please consider that using knowledge of pop culture references in evaluating candidates isn’t a great idea. People who aren’t familiar with your reference—maybe they grew up someplace where they didn’t have access to decades-old television shows, for example—might be confused. I think this falls into the (very subjective) category of “culture fit,” and should be avoided.

                2. The Magician's Auntie*

                  Absolutely. It is inadvertent gate-keeping, implying there is a certain, very specific ‘type’ that fits in here.
                  For starters, it’s s a question that more men, and more white people, would know how to answer than women or people of the global majority, since Star Trek has a mostly white and male audience. ,(Huge non-white or non-male audiences too – and I am one of the bazillion non-male fans – but the majority white and male.) Fandom can be cliquey.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      “How do you think the epidemic of childhood obesity affects the teaching of your subject?”

      My subjects, by the way, are English and History, so nothing like S.P.H.E. (Social, Personal and Health Education), where the topic might arise or like P.E. where it might affect students’ ability to participate.

      There were 8 interviewers on that panel and he was the last to speak, so I honestly think he was just stuck for a question.

      Second place goes to “apart from teaching, what would you do?” just because it was so badly phrased. What this interviewer meant was what else would I contribute to the school – extra-curricular activities, willingness to supervise after-school study, pastoral care, etc, but…he had to clarify because I had no idea what I was being asked.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Obesity is a primary cause of insulin resistance.

        I will share that insulin resistance is the primary reason we chose to homeschool. My son has to eat a set number of carbs every two hours. He would have to be pulled from class for up to 30 minutes every two hours. So reduced attendance would be an issue.

        Insulin resistance also disregulates blood sugar which leads to irritability and moodiness, so you might experience more classroom management issues as student are less able to regulate emotions.

        I’m not a teacher, so I won’t presume to tell you how to adapt, but I can see how it might affect your class.

      2. BikeWalkBarb*

        Having done a lot of reading and learning about fatphobia and diet culture I have an answer that might mean I don’t get hired: “I recently read Fat Talk by Virginia Sole-Smith and I’m more concerned about the epidemic of bias against children–and adults for that matter–based on body size.”

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Great point! Bullying is already such a huge issue (in the U.S. at least), and any the culture around bodies would significantly increase risk.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          I actually gave some answer about how it could affect self-esteem, but it was probably a stretch because I was not expecting any such question.

    4. Spite Sweater*

      Bad strangest question: “What would your coworkers say about you, like “Spite Sweater is so spiteful” or “Spite Sweater is such a sweater”? – She was trying to coax my negative traits and this was after already asking about my “biggest weakness” and telling me how stressful the job would be.

      Best strangest question: “If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be and why?” This was for a forestry related company so it wasn’t totally out there and was fun to answer.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        That is the ONLY circumstance in which “what kind of tree would you be and why” seems like an actual legit interview question. (Black walnut. I’m sturdy, nutty, and don’t crack easily.)

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Eeek; I’d have to choose between Rock Maple and Northern Red Oak on the fly.

        2. Spite Sweater*

          It was also for a low stakes summer writing internship, I don’t think they put too much weight in the question. I said a weeping willow because my grandma used to have a big one at her house that I liked a lot. I did get the internship and wrote a whole listicle of my favourite trees in my backyard as part of it.

        4. Another Use of the Identify Spell*

          That’s a risky answer because they also poison their immediate environment for a lot of other plants, besides the few that are adapted to growing near them. That’s why tree companies that will drop off wood chips have the option to exclude any loads that contain black walnut. Your vegetable garden would not do well with that as mulch.

        5. DogFace Boy*

          I’d be any kind of conifer because it gets cold in the winter, I can’t go and be shedding my leaves!

      2. Watry*

        The “what X would you be” questions are so weird. I got one on a job application asking me what color I would be from a fairly extensive list. I chose one of the blues because I like blue, and completed the rest of the application as I needed one more contact for unemployment that week. I did not hear anything.

      3. UnCivilServant*

        I would either be a Poet Tree for the pun, or a Binary Tree for the orderliness.

        Either one would tell the interviewer much about my personality.

        1. BikeWalkBarb*

          Ooooh, Decision Tree! The sweet simplicity of branching decision pathways and Yes/No questions so often divorced from the ambiguity of actual life as we know it.

        2. linger*

          Lava Tree. It’s one most people use on a daily basis.
          Though see also, e.g.: Basket Tree, Circa Tree, Common Tree, Complement Tree, Document Tree, Element Tree, En Tree, Gallan Tree, Heredy Tree, Hissed Tree, Indus Tree, Jomma Tree, Millet Tree, Pan Tree, Paste Tree, Pedan Tree, Pituat Tree, Poll Tree, Regis Tree, Rocket Tree, Secker Tree, Senn Tree, Simmer Tree, Tapas Tree, Tribute Tree, Vollen Tree.

    5. 8yellowbellies*

      Am I afraid of spiders? I answered no, was the premises infested with them? This was after the question: What superhero would I want to be? I answered a ninja warrior because they pivot well on their feet, are quick thinkers and are loyal.

      The hiring manager then lowballed me on the wage, even though it was posted higher.

      2. Refugee from corporations*

        Not sure which superhero I’d be.

        My ‘super power’ is alwaysicking the slowest checkout line.

        2. DogFace Boy*

          OMG that is mine to! I literally tell people that that is my super power all the time. I go to a store, pick out the line I’m drawn to, and then pick a different one. Works every time!

        3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          It was so bad for awhile I almost got a shirt that said “Trust me, you do not want to get in this line” on the back.

          I have turned to the person behind me and apologized for the line screeching to a halt.

        4. Rainy*

          I look good in hats. All hats. There are types of hat I don’t like to wear, but there is not a single hat I have ever put on that didn’t look great on me.

          1. Rainy*

            Sorry, I am having a bad time with providing necessary context lately–looking good in hats is my superpower.

            1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

              I think that was pretty clear!

              I look terrible in all hats, so I definitely recognise it as a superpower.

    6. Orange Crushed*

      “You get on an elevator. Which direction do you face?”

      “If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?”

      “You have 5 blocks. How do you arrange them?”

      1. Dashwood*

        I got the tree question!

        “What kind of tree would you be?”
        “Umm…Oak?”
        “Why do you say that?”
        “Erm… it’s the first one I thought of”.

        Somehow got that job!

      2. Dogbythefire*

        I mean, I’d be suspicious of anyone who said they faced the back of an elevator!!

        1. Kardemumma*

          Depends – if it’s one of those airport elevators that opens at the other side on the next level and you want to show how knowledgeable and well-travelled you are you face the side you know is going to open while everyone else does an about turn. :)

      3. BikeWalkBarb*

        Ah, I work in transportation policy so for me on that question about 5 blocks I’d be tempted to talk about them as city blocks and arrange them for a nice walkable pedestrian super-block with a car-free plaza.

        1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

          I don’t work in transportation, but I thought of city blocks, too!

    7. pally*

      “How soon can you take over as QA manager?”

      Not as wonderful a question as you might think.

      I was interviewing for a QA associate position with the CEO of the company. Previously I had interviewed with the QA manager-the person to whom I would report. QA manager seemed like a good person that I would enjoy working with. Friendly, easy-going.

      After a little small talk, the CEO came out and asked me the question above. I was shocked, confused and didn’t know how to answer. The QA manager had made no mention whatsoever that he was vacating the position. Why was she asking me this?

      She pressed, “Six months? Maybe nine?”

      I hedged. Pointed out that the QA manager hadn’t mentioned anything about vacating his position.

      “Oh, he’s 60. Close to retiring. He just doesn’t know it yet,” CEO said. “I’ll speak to him about it right after we’re finished.”

      (wish there had been a way to alert the QA manager about what was coming his way!)

      Nope! No way! Not ever going to work for someone who backstabs their employees like this.

      1. Jaydee*

        “Oh, he’s 60. Close to retiring. He just doesn’t know it yet. I’ll speak to him about it right after we’re finished.”

        I should stop being surprised that there are employers who just announce that they’re about to go do an illegal thing and instead seriously consider pivoting to a career in plaintiff’s side employment law.

    8. Passionfruit*

      “I’m driving right now so I don’t have your resume. Can you tell me a little bit about your qualifications?”

    9. Industry Behemoth*

      The interviewer turned out to be a past employee of my current employer. Paraphrasing, she asked me if they still treated the staff like second-class citizens.

    10. CowWhisperer*

      I was facing a potential layoff from a teaching job. There was nearly no chance I’d be high enough seniority to keep my job so I was applying for every teaching job that I was qualified for.

      The next district over calls me in for an interview for an alternative education high school science position.

      I show up in the business suit that teachers only wear to be interviewed and sit down at a table of teachers who are part of the interview process. There’s a heavy-set upper middle aged man standing by the window.

      Without turning from the window, he says, “Oh, CowWhisperer. What exactly is going on at your school?”

      Easy question, right?

      I should just say, “Well, we found out the principal was defrauding the state by massively inflating the student body count when he was taken away in handcuffs in the back of a patrol car. I was interviewed by the police who will be trying him for fraud last week. So, odds are that our school is so screwed that we’re being closed so hire me, please! ”

      Thankfully, I just said something very non-descript like ” Oh, there’s a lot of moving parts right now and I don’t think I’m up to date on any of it. ”

      I got the job as the second choice candidate. The first candidate said she was looking for a job closer to her home – but she lived in the district she worked for. The superintendent thought that was odd so he called an administrator in her district to double-check. Turns out she resigned in lieu of being fired for being a poor teacher who refused to work on her PIP.

      The principal was a nut-case with very little skill – but the faculty was amazing and the kids were neat.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Oh, I’ve mentioned this before, but the first school I worked in had such a reputation for poor behaviour among the students that the next interview I went to after leaving there, the interviewer asked, “tell us about a discipline problem you faced and how you dealt with it and looking at the last school you taught in, I’m sure you have plenty to choose from” and some years down the line, another interviewer asked me, “have you ever taught in a school where there were significant discipline problems?” and when I mentioned that one, they replied, “yeah, I saw that on your CV which is why I asked the question.” (Basically, he just wanted to hear if the place was really as bad as it was reputed to be. It was.)

        1. CowWhisperer*

          I recently interviewed for a position in a different county because we’re moving and this county is known for an excellent program in a special education subgroup that I have specialized experience with.

          I got the standard “Describe how you manage challenging behaviors” question. I proceed to explain how I managed a student with severe reactive and proactive violence resulting from a rough combination of a history of abuse and neglect, multiple disabilities causing low verbal language competency, and a sad form of educational neglect where a teacher who had him for 2 years pretty much let him do whatever he wanted – including picking on other students – and gave in as soon as he got angry. This means that when angry he would punch, kick and slap – and was big enough to do harm to adults and students. Keeping him safe involved a very high staffing ratio, emergency behavior plans, and making decisions about when to remove the other student (who also acted out physically but was so tiny that nothing that landed hurt) to a safe location so the kid could trash the room with putting anyone in danger which would avoid needing to use a seclusion or restraint from trained people.

          I picked this because it was recent – but because it was so recent – I realized as I was answering that this kid was in the 99.99th percentile of ‘hard behaviors’ rather than the kinda lazy kid or the talks-during lecture kid. The interviewers looked a bit surprised – but I drove home relationship building and learning how to manage feelings rather than acting out.

    11. Elle*

      Questions about marijuana legalization in our state. I have no knowledge of the subject and the job/organization had nothing to do with pot. Thankfully I was not called back for second round interviews.

      2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        I wouldn’t care about taking my chances to work anywhere that was considered an okay question, so I half wish that someone would ask and I could give the kind of smartass answer it deserves.

        “Well, I’m certainly not planning to get pregnant in the past.”

        “Why, is that part of the job description?”

        “That’s a private matter between me and my state legislature.”

        “If I tell you, you could be charged as an accomplice.”

        3. AVP*

          “I’m actually not sure how that works! Can you explain it to me? I’ve always wondered.”

        4. RedinSC*

          OMG!!! “That’s a private matter between me and my state legislature.”

          I’m dying laughing, BUT dang, that’s messed up that this is basically true!

      3. No More Meetings*

        As a young woman interviewing for engineering positions: Are you married/do you have a boyfriend? What will your SO say about you relocating for this position? What are your plans for growing your family?

        And the one that takes the cake, but was directed at another candidate in a group interview: This job involves visiting construction sites, but you’re wearing high heels. Are you sure you’re cut for it?

    13. doozy*

      Interviewing at a place where a former manager worked who recommended me. I knew the place was a stickler for degrees, and I didn’t have the one they wanted, but given his recommendation I applied. Told the recruiter straight up I didn’t have the degree, recruiter said it was fine. Went through 4 rounds of interviews, each person said given my experience, not having the degree was fine.

      Then my last interview, with someone on the leadership team. First thing he said to me was “you’re not qualified for this job, you don’t have a degree.” WTH? Why waste my time?

      But that wasn’t even the worst part. He want on to ask my salary requirements, I told him what I expected…. and he accused me of lying. He actually laughed and said I was inflating my worth, at that point I was pissed and said I was more or less making that salary at my current job, why wouldn’t I expect the same or a bit more? Again, he accused me of lying.

      As a reminder, my ex-manager worked down the hall; all he would have had to do is go ask him what my salary was and he could have confirmed it. The guy was just an ass. Needless to say, I didn’t get the job, nor would I have accepted had it been offered.

    14. Knighthope*

      “HOW TALL ARE YOU?” I got asked that after an interview by an elementary school principal who followed it with, in all seriousness, “I don’t hire anyone taller than I am!” Shocked, I blurted out “Then I guess I’d have to wear flats if I worked here!” Jerk! Mentally thanked him for showing me who he was.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Back in the ’60s, my mum was asked how tall she was by her boss, who added that he “liked the ladies to be tall.”

    15. No Tribble At All*

      “Have you ever physically fought someone?”

      This was for a professional job in an office environment.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        One, what?!!?

        Two, in what context? I do HEMA, some people do stage combat, anybody with siblings has been in a fight…

      2. I'm great at doing stuff*

        That is like a question a fellow preschool teacher got asked during an interview: “Have you ever been accused of having uncontrollable rage?” We just wondered what the heck had happened that caused them to have to ask that question!

      3. The OG Sleepless*

        “Um…my brother, until we got old enough to actually hurt each other and switched to vicious insults instead? Oh, wait, I vaguely remember getting in a rolling-on-the-floor fistfight with a boy in 3rd grade, but I don’t remember who won. No, seriously, whaa?”

      4. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Fencing class. Deliberately trained as a leftie to gain what little advantage I could. :)

    16. Chirpy*

      Company required a college transcript as part of the application. Interviewer saw I had taken some Russian and spoke to me exclusively in Russian for several minutes immediately upon entering the room.

      I was 5 years out of college. I had, in no way, listed Russian skills on my resume. In fact, he would have seen in both my resume and transcript that I have a double major in Spanish! The job itself did not require any language skills beyond English, and if it did, Russian would not have been much use in the area.

      I managed to dredge up a reply in terrible rusty Russian, but that interview went quickly downhill.

    17. A Simple Narwhal*

      I was asked once what my dream job was, and I (being just out of college and naive) answered honestly that my dream job was ideally to not need a job, but something that granted me the ability to travel and pursue my passions in my free time.

      The interviewer looked me dead in the eyes and said “No. If you marry only for money it will go horrible and you will be left alone and broke.”

      I was left dumbfounded and kind of insulted that they assumed the only way for me to have time and money was to be a gold digger, but I just said ok and assumed their response was more about them than it was me. My response probably wasn’t a great one/what they were looking for, but asking what my dream job was when interviewing for an entry level position supporting medical software was probably a bad question anyway.

      1. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

        Sounds like a really poor way to ask about your long term career goals.

    18. Nicki Name*

      A very obscure technical question about a computer programming language– the sort of thing you’d normally look up in the documentation rather than trying to just remember off the top of your head– followed by (after my wrong answer) “oh, no one ever gets that one right.” Well then, why did you just waste all our time with it??

    19. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      “Who is your favorite author, and how do they relate to technical writing?” for a TW position.

      The problem is, my favorite author at the time was Ray Bradbury, who I loved due to his evocative way of phrasing to induce an emotional reaction so the answer had to end “and he doesn’t relate to the job at all.”

      One of the interviewers told me later that it was to end an argument they were having about Hemingway.

    20. TX_Trucker*

      So many to choose from. All these from different employers

      If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be and why.

      What’s your favorite fruit

      What does your husband think of you applying for this job. Followed up, with: Does your husband have a job?

      What the most important lesson you learned from your father.

    21. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Med school interviews, not job interviews. The first was with a woman (this was 1981 and she was the only woman I met in my interviews – I’m a cis woman) who noticed I was an English major and asked about my area of interest. I said “I’m writing about Eugene O’Neill.” She said “Why not write about women? Don’t you think women in the 18th century were kept from publishing by the patriarchy?”

      And she was outdone by the man at the next school. He spent the first few minutes looking through my file, clearly for the first time. He said “Didn’t do very well in organic chemistry, did you?” Well, no. “Didn’t do very well on the MCATs, did you?” I guess not. “Didn’t bring the scores up much the second time.” No. “What department is your father in?” Excuse me? “Your father. What department is he in?” He’s a cardiologist, but he doesn’t work here. “Then why does your folder have a star on it?” Maybe because he went to med school here? “Oh, really? What year? 1958? What’s his name? Huh. Why don’t I know who he is?” Couldn’t tell you.”Where is he now?” Nearby County Hospital. “Oh! He must know Bob Smith!” Yes, he does, since Bob Smith is the chair of cardiac surgery. “I know Bob Smith!” and he proceeded to talk for ten minutes about how Bob Smith really isn’t all that great and he knows the real dirt on Bob Smith. He asked me one more question – “Do you know if Bob Smith got married again?”

      Called my parents afterward and let them know I wasn’t getting in and really didn’t want to go there if I did get in. Told them the whole story. Mom said “What was his name?” and when I told her she said “Oh, my God. Do you remember I told you that your father got measles when he was in med school and one of the residents told me he was going to die? THAT WAS THE ASSHOLE RESIDENT.”

      Can’t make this stuff up.

    22. Sutemi*

      Phone screen with a hiring manager: I’m really into genealogy and you have a really interesting last name. Do you know where it comes from? I sidestepped the question and then they doubled down on asking again.

      Not positive if they were trying to backhandedly figure out my racial identity or were completely clueless, but I’m going for racist.

      1. CatMintCat*

        Well, I wouldn’t ask at an interview, but I would almost certainly ask once I knew you better. I’m interested in names and their origins. I promise it would be curiosity (possibly misplaced), not racism.

    23. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      “I’ve got to be honest: I don’t think you’re the right choice for this position. Convince me otherwise.”

      1. LadyKateline*

        I had a boyfriend start a date in a restaurant with a similar comment. I declined to try and convince him I was worthy of his atttention, ate the most expensive meal on the menu, and left, leaving him to pay……. and never saw him again.

    24. Rosie*

      After telling me the job would in fact be completely different from what they had advertised, they showed me a page with headshots of various people – no other information – and asked, “how would you fit in with this team?”

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Well, I bring a lot of diversity. For one thing, I’m three dimensional and all of these people are flat.

    25. Trotwood*

      At the end of an interview when we gave the candidate an opportunity to ask us some questions (and didn’t think “about the role” needed to be specified), she started with “If you could only eat one type of food for the rest of your life, what would you choose?” This was a student who was already not moving forward based on her answers up to that point, but it really sealed the deal.

    26. Magnus Archivist*

      I was once asked “tell me about how you organize things” in an interview. I’m an archivist so organizing things is like, 95% of what I do and has a long history of theory and ethics and best practices, etc etc, so this is a HUGE question! I kind of gave a vague answer about current best practices and unique collection/researcher needs before someone on the panel interrupted to say that the question asker was trying to ask whether or not I keep my desk and office neat.

      Apparently the last person who held that position was a “if I can’t see it it doesn’t exist” kind of organizer and it drove the question asker up the wall.

    27. Chaos organizer*

      This was for an internal job move (going from part time to full time in the same department under the same leadership structure. The panel was : the director, my supervisor and the supervisor of an adjacent department. Director asks what I would do “if given a task that would take roughly 8 hours but I knew I was leaving on vacation in 2 hours.”
      I was so stunned that I blurted out “manager would never do that to me!”
      It was a pretty toxic place and it m pretty sure the “right “ answer was to put your vacation off because that’s exactly what the director was doing.

    28. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      1990 – I was about to graduate as a chemical engineer. Our campus brought tons of companies in for on campus interviews. In the 90’s no one would dare go to an interview wearing anything but a suit and even a pantsuit was a bit too casual for women, and in any case the campus career center would never have allowed it.

      I was interviewing exclusively for manufacturing engineering. My suit was a conservative blue 90’s typical interview suit. My hair was in a french braid. My makeup was neutral.

      “This is a factory, you might get dirty. How do you think you will handle not being allowed to dress pretty at work?”

    29. Freddie Mercurial*

      “What would you bring to the office potluck?”
      I think I said brownies. This was with most of the department to get to know me.
      Obviously, I wouldn’t have brought cheap ass rolls.

      I didn’t get the job.

    30. Girasol*

      For an IT project manager position: Which would you clean first: your work desk, your home, or your car? I picked one and stated my reason, thinking that it was somehow a values question, but I’m still wondering what the right answer was. I got the job, probably in spite of my poor answer.

    31. NottheBoomer*

      ‘You have three packages and 2 boxes, what do you want to do?’ I was told the ‘correct’ answer was ‘What do you want me to do?’ (to show I could follow direction). He said no one ever answered it correctly (so why keep using it???)

    32. Grilledcheeser*

      Engineering internship during college, for a summer in a factory. “Do you mind getting your shoes dirty?” I blinked, and responded with my own question: “did you ask the MEN that question also? Or just me, the woman?” Interviewer happily said “oh just you! And by the way, no dresses allowed in the factory. Will that be an issue?” No, why do you ask? “You’re wearing one now!” … you realize I am in a dress now because you required it for the interview?!?! “Oh. Huh. Right. So, do you mind getting your hands & fingernails dirty?” Oh my stars. I stood up & walked out. My prof was waiting outside, saw my face, and said “uh oh”. I got so exhausted being the only woman in engineering school & having to educate everyone every second of the day. (Ended up in a lovely internship at a place where they simply assumed I would be fine wearing steel-toed boots, and I didn’t have to educate anyone all summer! They were all a joy to work with!)

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I am impressed that college-you was sufficiently poised and collected to walk out. (As you should’ve, but I think I would’ve been stuck there in increasing horror.)

    33. No More Meetings*

      Aah, I just remembered the weirdest assignment during a group interview! There were several photos of personalities, living and deceased, laid on a table. We were asked to pick one that we most identified with and explain why.

      One of the options was literally Hitler.

    34. Bitte Meddler*

      I got what is now pretty much a meme: “If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be, and why?”

      It was the 2nd question, right after, “I’ve only had time to glance at your resume, so tell me a little bit about yourself.”

      I was dumbfounded and just… closed my folio, stood up, and said, “I’m sorry, I don’t think this job is right for me,” and left.

      1. DannyG*

        What animal would you be, and why? My answer was a red tail hawk. The Chevy sedan of raptors: not big and majestic like a bald eagle, not flashy like a Peregrine falcon, but steady and reliable. It also opened the opportunity to talk about my experience as a pilot (not related to the job, but most find it interesting and indicative of my ability to learn highly technical material).

    35. Seashell*

      During school, I had a part-time, mostly clerical job with a professional firm named something like Smith, Smith, Jones, and Miller. The Smiths were a father and his son, and Jones and Miller were Mr. Smith’s daughters who had changed their names on marriage. There was no one in a professional position there who wasn’t part of the family.

      After I had graduated, I had an interview for a full-time job elsewhere and the interviewer said, “Why didn’t you get a job at Smith, Smith, Jones, and Miller?” Like it was given that a place you worked for doing grunt work was going to hire you full-time? It was odd. I explained that they weren’t hiring outside of the family. I didn’t get whatever job it was I was interviewing for.

    36. Elle Woods*

      “Wouldn’t you agree that politics is a game to played for fun?”

      Um, hell to the no. For the record, it was a former state rep who was asking this. He was a lawyer and he *should’ve* known better. The whole interview was nothing but red flags but that questions was the most offensive IMO.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yikes, way to say “I’m privileged enough that I don’t have to care about the issues and I’m not particularly bothered about those they actually affect.”

    37. NotARealManager*

      “Can you make a list?”

      Besides being extremely qualified, the interviewer was holding my resume as she asked this, a document that is essentially…a list. I was so baffled, I didn’t know how to answer. I got the job anyway and took it since it was in a competitive industry, but I left after half a day. She was too eccentric, even for that line of work.

    38. HD*

      “How do I know you’re not going to leave in a year like the last person did?” Uh, you called me in for this interview. If you’re that worried about people leaving, maybe stop wasting their time.

    39. Vio*

      I (male) was once asked by the interviewer (also male) if I shaved my armpits. He explained that he did and wondered if it was weird. So he apparently decided to use the job interviews to also conduct a survey. For the record I wish I’d answered that it was the asking that was weird.

      1. Rebecca*

        I got asked how many piano tuners are in Chicago. I stand by my answer, which was, “look in the yellow pages.”

        For people who have never encountered this before:
        This type of question is known as a Fermi question, bc the physicist Enrico Fermi loved them. The idea is that you go through some kind of though process, like, there are X people in the UK and Y% of them own a piano, which needs to be tuned every Z months, etc.
        When I was asked this, I was an undergraduate Physics major who had never heard of this before. I was applying for some kind of tutoring position, and the interviewer said he had heard that every physicist knew how to answer this question. My first answer was along the lines of “how the hell should I know and what does that have to do with Physics?” They asked me how I would approach answering it, and that’s when I said I would look in the yellow pages (this was the early 90s). As a grown up physicist, I know that no physicist starts a problem without a thorough literature search, and if ever I were asked this idiotic question again, I would say exactly that and suggest a yelp search.

    41. DannyG*

      (Think the penguins from the Madagascar series) they’re throwing a Cinco-de-Mayo party and were running low on limes, could they borrow some?

    42. Anna*

      I was interviewing for a granite countertop installation company about 15 years ago and they asked me if I thought I was lucky. I abetted I’m white in America, I’m extremely lucky. They asked me if it would be a problem for me to work with their mostly conservative clients (we’re in Ohio) I said no, I’m married to a Republican who is a 2 time combat war vet. I don’t get the job

    43. Nightengale*

      I was asked twice why I walk with a cane.

      Oh, I’m a doctor and was being interviewed by doctors. Who either didn’t know or care that was an illegal question?

  3. Tired of applying!*

    After applying to so many roles, spending hours upon hours tailoring resumes and cover letters, proofreading, filling out online application forms, resetting passwords to online portals, it always felt that I was the only one not hearing back.

    But a recent article from the ‘The Globe and Mail” newspaper (I am from Toronto) makes me feel…seen. It discusses how job-searchers with a lot of experience are finding it hard to find and land jobs. It also mentions AI being a factor.

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/careers/article-growing-number-of-unemployables-frustrated-by-the-job-market/

    1. Someone stole my croissant*

      Thank you for the article! I’m trying to get a step up from food service, but I feel like they’re the only one who will hire me. And their hours suck!
      I’m glad I’m not the only one.

    2. Dandylions*

      It’s pay walled so can you summarize?

      I’m curious how they determined this. did they just survey everyone unemployed and found that mostly people with 10+ years are struggling or is it a specific age cohort or skillset that’s struggling?

      1. Mimmy*

        I was able to read the article – here are the summary points they listed at the beginning:

        – Rising number of experienced and competent professionals are finding it difficult to re-enter the labour market after being let go or quitting
        – Employers are receiving thousands of applications and are relying on artificial intelligence to sift and select candidates, which is making for a frustrating experience for jobseekers.
        – More than four in 10 hiring managers in Canada say they’ve made a regrettable hire in the last year.

    3. sandra*

      This is so interesting! I’ve noticed a lot of places I’ve applied recently have this kind of disclaimer in their applications about using AI tools:

      “This employer may use an artificial intelligence algorithm to provide an initial comparison of an applicant’s education, experience, and skills against the education, experience and skill requirements in the job description. This analysis produces a Profile Relevancy score, which is intended to be one of many factors that a potential employer will review in making its interview decisions; there are no cut off scores and all applications are visible to employers. Read more about how these tools collect, store, and retain information and the results of the most recent impartial evaluations. The Profile Relevancy score for applicants who opt out will be listed as Not Available.”

      I’ve wondered whether it tanks your application to opt out — my assumption was that, if employers get a long list of candidates who opted in and have high “Profile Relevancy scores”, they won’t even bother taking a look at the candidates who have no score because they opted out.

    4. TheBunny*

      Honestly? I don’t buy it.

      The AI thing is nothing new. I’ve done hiring for years and there have always been “knock out” questions that ask candidates about experience etc. and if the person doesn’t have it their resume is automatically filtered into a “no” bucket.

      I do agree that the market is tighter now, but it’s not really AI rather a shift in the way people view work and tenure. In years past, you took a job and you stayed there. If the company closed you found a new job but that was pretty much it. Now people stay in jobs for a few years and are back on the market, increasing competition for those openings.

      But the AI thing isn’t as much of a thing as people think.

  4. What to Charge?*

    Hey all, looking for some advice here! I just accepted a new job and am in the process of transitioning my current duties and figuring things out with my current boss. I have some very niche skills that make filling my role difficult, plus institutional knowledge that even someone new coming into the role wouldn’t have. I really love the team and job that I’m leaving, so I agreed to put in a couple of hours a week to help with some of the more technical stuff until they’ve got someone new up and running (without giving too much information, this is a common situation for employees join the organization I’m joining, so there’s no issue there).

    My current boss told me to let her know what my hourly rate would be and I have no idea where to start! I’m not fully free-lance as I’ll get benefits from my new job, this would just be on the side. They’re a non-profit whose mission I care about (and they’ve treated me really well!) so I want to be fair, but also recognize the commitment I’m making. Any thoughts on how to navigate?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Divide your salary by 2,080. That’s your present hourly wage. I’d say add 50% to that hourly number. Yes, you’re not fully freelance, but you are doing some additional work, which takes you away from a couple hours of anything else. Plus, you’re going to still be taxed on that income, so with 50%, you’re not clearing THAT much more than your present hourly wage.

      1. What to Charge?*

        Haha, thank you for doing the math for me (or at least building the equation for me!) That helps immensely (and I think I’m not far off in my original thinking!)

        1. Tio*

          Another possibility – can you ask them to leave you as a W2 employee for the weeks they want you (essentially don’t terminate you) and change you to part time status so you don’t have to do 1099 work? Then you can just keep your general hourly rate and not do the math or the extra taxes

              1. Parenthesis Guy*

                Your benefits are part of your total comp. If you don’t get benefits, even if you don’t need, you’re getting an effective pay cut.

                1. Tio*

                  Yeah, but according to OP they’re only doing some limited work for this company to help with transition. They have a new job, with benefits, they will be working. They are just extending their leave with the old company by doing additional hours; the pay does not sound like it’s a factor here, they’re doing it because they want to help their old employer because they like them and their mission. If they don’t want to mess around with 1099 status and taxes, this might be a good idea, as not having to deal with that hassle for a limited amount of time they would be working there would be fine for me. OP can say no, the org can say no, but they can ask if that sounds good to them.

                2. The Unionizer Bunny*

                  The new job is providing benefits. (Well, it should be.) If the old employer doesn’t have to include benefits, the 50% markup will be easier to grant.

        2. mreasy*

          I would double your current hourly rate, minimum. Make sure the hourly amount makes it worth your while to be distracted from moving forward! I would err on the higher side for this.

          1. Miette*

            This is my go-to advice to people going freelance. If you’re in the US, you’ll have more taxes to pay than you’ll realize, so also keep at least 1/3 of what you earn on this gig saved somewhere for that purpose.

        3. Seven times*

          Don’t divide by 2080! That doesn’t work well for freelance, because it assumes you have paid leave (vacation, sick, holiday, etc.) in hourly work, you need to work out your hours per year (1750 when in doubt and divide salary by that). 2080 will deflate your actual value.

          1. Columbia Road*

            Yes, agree. I work in consulting (with a workforce management obligation for teams I direct); we use 1,860 for hours estimates when we forecast staff labor. 2,080 deflates your rate artificially because you do not take holidays and vacation time into account.

      2. Parenthesis Guy*

        Your present hourly wage is your salary divided by 2,080 if you got no PTO/holidays. Otherwise, you probably want to subtract those hours from the denominator.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Do you know if they have contracts with other people doing things on the side? Maybe check those rates?

      I would charge enough to make it worth your time and to make sure they don’t end up asking for tons of your time. Keep in mind that you’ll be required to pay the full rate of taxes on this income if you’re in the US, so it should be high enough to compensate for that.

      I’m salaried, but I know what my hourly rate is and I would not hesitate to charge my company 150%-200% of that.

    3. WellRed*

      It does not matter that you get benefits from the new position or that you’re not “fully freelance.” What matters is what your old job pays you to consult. I’d charge double your old hourly wage. I’d also put an end date to it upfront.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        +1
        WTC please be aware that your rate may impact future freelancers/consultants, and please note where others have said that your current salary DOES include other benefits so be sure to add those into your math re: total compensation

      2. Miette*

        It wouldn’t hurt to put together a statement of work that will list what you will do, how many hours you estimate it will take to do it, how many hours per week you will work, and by when it will all be done. Then there’s no doubt of the scope of your work for them, and they can’t always ask for “just this one other thing!”

    4. English Rose*

      Bit of a stab in the dark, but how about taking your hourly rate from old job and adding say 30%? Or trying to research what freelancers in this niche might be charging?

    5. I should really pick a name*

      I agreed to put in a couple of hours a week to help with some of the more technical stuff until they’ve got someone new up and running

      I suggest specifying an “I’m done whether you’ve found someone or not” date

    6. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Double your current hourly rate. You want to be available if they really need you but also make it so they feel some urgency to transition out.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Take your current, FTE hourly wage and triple it for freelance. You’re going to be covering the employee and employer taxes. If you didn’t have the new job you’d also have to pay yourself for any time off, and your own health insurance, etc. Since you do have the new job that will give you those things, you could decide to go with just double your currently hourly. But generally speaking if you were just straight up freelancing, if you wanted to clear the same amount, you’d charge 3x.

    8. Shorty McSkorty*

      I did this recently after I had left the non-profit 3.5 mos prior. They originally lowballed me at my last rate + 15% (taxes). I countered higher (see below math) and they accepted. When the contract was done (60-hours) the scope of work had changed for the next round of work (mostly training a temp on how to do work they were zero experienced with). I told them my new hourly rate which was higher. They declined to continue.

      MAKE IT VERY CLEAR the scope of work through a contract. They WILL take advantage of you. I, too, had a niche role and institutional knowledge. I left detailed transition documents for staff to follow 3 mos ago. I was called in when they didn’t use the docs, resigned, and the work felt behind. When the org decided not to continue with me, they left the work in the hands of a temp with no experience in fundraising whatsoever. I would have put them in a good place.

      Your base pay / 2080 hours (you’re not in a long-term contract requiring PTO)
      Add 15% + 7.56% for taxes
      Double it.

      They’re paying for your EXPERTISE and KNOWLEDGE. You’re not just a coworker, you’re a consultant.

      1. Cj*

        I don’t agree with your calculations. the only additional expense be Opie will have is 7.65% FICA taxes. their income tax isn’t going to be any different weather or not they are an employee or a contractor.

        this is assuming they get Health insurance, 401k, paid time off and other benefits through their new employer.

        obviously, they would want to make it worth their while, and might want to charge 1.5 to 2% of their previous hourly pay. but it’s not like somebody that’s switching to full-time self employment has to cover everything themselves.

        1. Shorty McSkorty*

          I don’t care if you agree or not. This is where the employer isn’t your employer – they’re your contract relationship. Things have changed. They NEED you, you don’t need them. The org will take advantage of her in every way especially not providing a specific scope of work. AND NO, it’s not just 7.65% in taxes, it’s 15% in taxes – The self-employment tax rate is 15.3%. That rate is 12.4% for Social Security and 2.9% for Medicare.

          What they’re receiving from another employer doesn’t matter.

          “and might want to charge 1.5 to 2%” Do you want to get f–d? This is how you get f–d.
          Do you think your knowledge, skills, and abilities are only worth 1.5-2%? If so, you have very low esteem for your professional self if that’s true.

  5. Vacant Hotel*

    I’m an administrative assistant to a director, whose boss is a vice present. Last week, the administrative assistant of the VP sent out an invite to a working lunch to all of us admins under the directors to go over procedures. This email was just to us admins, not the directors; the VP admin normally copies the directors on email if they need to know. It’s a day I’ll be out of the office so I can’t go. The message said to find someone to go in my place if I couldn’t go.

    I talked to the two admins under our two managers, Matt and Amy, who are always my back ups when I’m out. Matt couldn’t go because he uses his lunch to go check on his mother who has been going through health stuff for months. Amy wasnt my preference because she’s gonna be leaving at the end of August, but she agreed to fill in for me and catch me up when I am back. I sent that information to the VPs admin and thought it was settled.

    My director Sara got looped in by the VP admin (I think in an email to the directors that she was borrowing us admins for the afternoon) and she is not happy that I made this decision without speaking to her. I wasn’t hiding it from her, I meant to mention that this was happening, and forgot, but I didn’t think the directors needed to be asked. Us admins do a lot of talking without looping them in. This was a working lunch, but I didn’t think the directors needed to be involved since they’re not attending and it was meant to go over the procedures between us admins. Sara is not happy that I selected Amy because she is leaving and she is going to send Matt even though he can’t go. She’s not angry, but she says this has created confusion and is now a “situation” she has to sort through. I offered to sort it out but she just said very shortly that she would handle it.

    Was I wrong in doing this without talking it through with my director? It’s fine if the answer is yes, I’m just feeling frustrated that Sara scolded me so. Like if she’d just said she wanted to change who went, fine but she’s making it feel like a huge deal when it’s something that can be sorted with a brief conversation. She’s not holding it against me as she was back to normal by the end of the day, and she’s normally not like this but I was bristling with frustration that she reacted this way. Was I wrong in going about this in this way?

    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Sara might have a point if you made an assumption that Matt couldn’t make it without actually talking to him first before you talked to Amy; however I think Sara is being ridiculous if you had confirmed that both you and Matt were busy during that time period.

      1. Vacant Hotel*

        I did ask Matt and he told me he couldn’t. I knew he’d been dealing with his mother’s health problems for months but I didn’t realize he was going to check on her every day at lunch. He asked if Amy could, so I checked with her afterwards and she didn’t mind.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          So, since it’s a working lunch, and Sara really wants Matt to go, would it work for Matt to go check on his mother before or after the meeting, since he should still get a break from work during the day? Often, especially if you’re hourly, you still get a lunch break in addition to the working lunch.

    3. Spite Sweater*

      I don’t think so. And if she had an issue with the directors not being included she should bring that up with the person who organized the meeting.

    4. Baldrick*

      Sounds like Sara got an ear full of complaints from the VP Admin who didn’t want Amy and instead wanted Matt. How else would Sara know that it’s a problem? It would also explain why she’s grumpy, and she shared some of that grumpiness with you unfortunately. It sounds like the VP Admin is more senior? If so then I’d point to the VP Admin not cc’ing all the Directors per usual, and say that I took my direction from them in thinking that it didn’t need to be shared immediately with the Directors.

      I think in this case the biggest problem is the VP Admin, and Sara is frustrated with them, the situation in general, and a tiny bit with you – I would hope that any frustration directed at you would be very temporary.

    5. A Book about Metals*

      It sounds like a very minor issue to get bothered about. If she’s not normally like that, could be having a bad day, or maybe her own boss chimed in on it for some reason.

      Also, is there a way to record this meeting or get notes/transcription? That way nobody has to fill in for you

    6. Tippy*

      As a former admin to very, very high level people in the org, your director is being particularly precious. This would not have been something I looped ny bosses in to either and if I did they probably would have been like “Okay, whatever. That’s your quasi-staff.”

      1. TP Turkeys*

        I agree, I think I would wonder why I was having to be involved if I were her boss and she brought it to me. It’s not you, Vacant Hotel, it’s definitely your boss being weird. I hope she’s not normally like this.

    7. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      You asked Matt and Matt said no. You didn’t have the authority to make Matt go for you and Amy was available. You did what you could to cover things. My hunch is that Sara is just upset that she wasn’t told. It can be SO HARD to know what managers want to know about and what they don’t want to know. You tell them too much and you’re bothering them unnecessarily. Don’t tell them one simple thing and they act like Sara. 25 years in the workforce and I still mess it up. I guess my only advice is to ask Sara if she’d like to know right away if that happens again. Make her tell you what she wants.

      1. Vacant Hotel*

        Yes I feel this exactly! Sara is a pretty hands off boss to me. She is frequently at other locations for our business and I can occasionally go a week without seeing her. So I don’t normally tell her every little thing because it feels unnecessary. Thanks for the advice and commiseration.

    8. Anon Attorney*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong from the information you had but now you know your boss would you prefer to do this a different way. So I would just take it on the chin as something you know for next time!

    9. RagingADHD*

      That is exactly the sort of decision I got paid to make when I was an admin. Why does Sara have time to worry about that stuff? She needs to be focusing on director stuff-that’s what you’re there for, to deal with this kind of office procedure stuff so she doesn’t have to.

      Maybe she’s feeling insecure about something else and compensating for it, or maybe there’s something going on with the VP behind the scenes.

  6. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’m getting my wisdom teeth removed on Monday. Originally I was going to take Monday-Wednesday off, but I’m so anxious about work that I’m only going to take Monday off. Even then, I’m going to bring my laptop home.

    Am I crazy? Things in the office have been pretty terrible lately. I’ll have a ton of downtime, and then I’ll have a dozen fires to put out. I don’t know what to do at this point. I keep getting more responsibilities without any increase in pay or title. It doesn’t feel right to call it burn out because there are stretches of time where I essentially have nothing to do. But when it’s bad, it’s bad.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      Each person reacts so differently, and you may need some additional time to recover. Can you at least work from home for a few days? You’re going to be swollen and in pain, and you may not want to just manage that pain with Advil or Tylenol, which makes driving impossible. You’re going to be REALLY tired on Monday and in no position to work. If you can add a couple of days following, when you’re accessible but not having to try to push through discomfort in the office, I’d strongly suggest that.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I’m the Office Manager, so I’m front facing. The reason I’m coming back sooner is because we’ll have a couple of candidates coming in that we want to impress. I talked to some friends who have had their teeth out, and said I should be fine the next day.

        1. WellRed*

          Everyone is different. You could be a drooling incoherent mess or perfectly fine. Take the time you need. Also, burnout encompasses more than being overworked.

          1. ThursdaysGeek*

            For instance, I figured one day would be fine, so I went back to work the next day. And then took the following 2 days off, because I went back way too soon.

            1. Space Coyote*

              Ugh, this is exactly what happened to me. Then I got dry socket a few days after that, sigh, and spent a miserable week or so.

              But I know other people who bounced back just fine the day after! It’s almost impossible to tell, so I would make a contingency plan and be kind to yourself if you need extra time.

        2. ThatGirl*

          It really depends, but 24 hours later, even if you feel mostly fine, your mouth will be sore and you may not be talking clearly. I would definitely err on the side of more time.

        3. Rex Libris*

          It varies with wisdom teeth. A couple of mine were impacted and removal was very difficult. I was definitely more swollen and less able to speak clearly the next day than I would want to be for the situation you describe. I also had a headache and jaw pain for a couple of days.

          Especially if they’re doing them all at once, I’d at least plan on the possibility of being out Tuesday, if not Wednesday as well.

        4. Ginger Cat Lady*

          I was most definitely NOT fine the next day. Have a plan B for if you are not fine the next day.

        5. Trotwood*

          I would not count on “here’s our office manager who just got their wisdom teeth out yesterday!” being more impressive than “sorry our office manager is out for a few days but will be back soon!” Seems like you’d be sending a message that “no one takes time off in our office even when they really need it.”

        6. LCH*

          it depends. mine was a surgery where I was put under, not just teeth pulling.

          my face hurt a lot and i was taking a pretty strong painkiller for a few days. not sure this is necessary if it is pulling instead of surgical removal. if you are taking the strong pills, driving would be out. plus being on drugs while trying to do work can be weird.

        7. Somehow I Manage*

          Each person’s experience varies. My wife went wedding dress shopping the day after she got hers out. I have friends who have had bruising and significant swelling.

          If you could swing it at work, perhaps you can plan to be out a few days, and then come in if you’re feeling up to it. I know that there’s a desire to make a good impression, but if you’re not feeling good, or if you look like you’re in pain, the first impression might actually be negative. If I happened to be one of those candidates and it was obvious that you aren’t feeling great, I’m flagging that red because it appears that there’s something off about the culture of your workplace. That may not be the case at all, but the optics are potentially negative.

        8. Paris Geller*

          Wisdom teeth removal varies greatly by person. I was groggy but fine later in the day of mine, but the day after was by far the worse. Then by day 3 I was fine again, so I had one day of short but intense pain. I’ve known people who had their wisdom teeth out and it barely affected them, and one person who ended up needing 4 days to recover. I would not bank on being able to be back at work the day after wisdom teeth removal.

        9. RedinSC*

          If you’re wanting to impress candidates, the way to NOT do it is to be back at work too soon, and demonstrate to the candidates that even people who had teeth removed aren’t able to to take the time they need to fully recover.

          That would make me pause and think about unrealistic work life balances that this company might require.

      2. Clisby*

        YES. I stayed high on Percodan for almost a week after getting my 4 wisdom teeth out because I was in so much pain. A few years ago, my son got his out and could have gone back to work after taking 2 days off. (It was covid lockdown, so he was homebound longer, but physically a couple of days would have been enough.)

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      Take the time you need. When I had my wisdom teeth out it took me a couple of days to get back on my feet (mine were impacted, which made a difference). I assume you’re using PTO you’ve accrued, so that is yours to use.

    3. A manager, but not your manager*

      I can’t say if you’re crazy to only take 1 day off (I was working from home for my wisdom teeth and I don’t remember how much time I took off). I can say that even if there are periods of time that are quiet, if you’re burning out, you’re burning out, and acknowledging that to yourself (and if it’s safe to do so, your boss), that’s important information for thinking through what you want to do about it.

      1. Trotwood*

        I remember in high school when most of my friends had their wisdom teeth out, some people came back to school the next day but it was DEFINITELY noticeable. You’re not going to be blending in the next day.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        YES THIS. Burnout is real and it affects your thinking – be careful with yourself and maybe see if you can make a plan to reduce/ recover from burnout, with a coach or a medical professional or a therapist or a trusted friend? Does your workplace have EAP?

    4. Rara Avis*

      In general, you always recover better if you take some time to let your body rest. When my kid had their wisdom teeth out recently, they were on strong painkillers for a few days. I would recommend taking the three days to heal.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Depending on the anesthesia, your laptop will likely sit untouched on Monday. I was up and around the day after my extractions, but I’m no way, shape, or form was I capable of doing anything resembling work on the day of.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        And depending on your reaction to the anesthesia and other medications, it SHOULD sit untouched. I usually get benzos along with anesthesia for dental procedures, because of dental phobia, and we have learned that I am absolutely not allowed to have my phone or computer or anything with an internet connection until at least 8 hours after the surgery. Bad enough to have texted post-surgery pictures to my boss, what if I’d emailed them to a whole mailing list or something. Yikes. (I also mucked up my crochet project the last time, so I’m basically not allowed to do anything other than sit on the couch and watch TV the day of dental surgery.)

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Strong agree. I apparently got into an argument with the person who drove me home after… I have no recollection of the argument or the drive, only waking up in bed 12 hours later, seeing the clock (7:00) and rushing to the door yelling, “we’re going to be late for my dental surgery!”

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            The last time I was a driver for someone coming home from dental surgery (who did NOT get benzos, just the regular anesthesia/pain meds) I had to pull over into a parking lot to stop her from repeatedly punching herself in the mouth. “It doesn’t hurt! See, it doesn’t even hurt! ” and I was like “Maybe not, but I bet it will in a couple hours.” Luckily it was only another couple minutes to get home, but whoof.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              Oops, lost my brackets. “It doesn’t hurt! [wham] See, it doesn’t even hurt! [wham]”

          2. The OG Sleepless*

            My husband argued with me all the way home from his colonoscopy that he was completely fine to go to work. He sounded completely lucid. Later, he had no recollection of the entire morning

    6. lebkin*

      Did your surgeon talk to you about pain management? Do you anticipate needing to take prescription-level painkillers? In that situation, you may not be able to work. Either because the drugs make you too foggy or, if you skip them, because the pain is too intense to think straight. You don’t want to add mistakes to an already stressful work environment.

      You may not have high levels of pain. I had my wisdom teeth pulled, and they were the easiest tooth removal I ever had. I could have actually worked that afternoon if I wanted to. I merely alternated ibuprofen and acetaminophen to handle the pain, and my mind was clear the entire time.

      I talked to my surgeon before hand, and their guidance helped me understand what condition I was likely to have ended up in.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        The surgeon didn’t talk to me about pain management. I don’t plan on taking pain medicine (mainly because it makes me sick) even if they give it to me. I have a couple of chronic pain conditions, so I’m used to pushing through that.

        1. ThatGirl*

          How about ibuprofen? Because that will help keep the swelling down and the pain at bay. I understand not wanting to take something stronger (vicodin makes me barf) but you will want to have something on hand if possible. I took a steady stream of ibuprofen for about 48 hours after mine, on the dr’s recommendation.

          1. my cat is prettier than me*

            I read online that you’re not supposed to take Ibuprofen after the surgery because it can promote bleeding. I’ll have Tylenol on had.

            1. ThatGirl*

              Mmm I think that’s incorrect/outdated – aspirin is a blood thinner, ibuprofen is not. Tylenol is better than nothing, certainly. But follow your dentist’s recs.

              1. Nitpicker*

                Ibuprofen is a blood thinner. I’m on Eliquis and have been warned off Ibuprofen (as well as aspirin). Pity because I always found ibuprofen much more effective than Tylenol.

                2. MD*

                  No, it’s not. It can increase your risk of bleeding if taken with blood thinners, but it is not itself a blood thinner. Please do not spread inaccurate medical information.

            2. Hyaline*

              Ask your surgeon, but ibuprofen was recommended to me after wisdom tooth extraction by my surgeon.

        2. Maggie*

          I was crying and begging for pain medication even after a week. I don’t think your expectations are in line with reality, even if I did have a worse reaction that’s not necessarily typical. It’s extremely painful

    7. FricketyFrack*

      Are they just numbing you, or will you be under anesthesia? Because if it’s the latter, you’re not going to get anything done on Monday. After that, you’ll proooobably be fine to do light work, but if your job requires you to talk a lot, that can be a problem. I worked in a call center when I got mine removed and it was awful.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I’ll be going under. I didn’t want to, but the surgeon said he doesn’t feel comfortable removing them with just the numbing because of my anxiety. I only really need two of them out, but my insurance won’t cover the anesthesia unless I get all four out, so we’re going all in.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          You’re not supposed to make important decisions for 24 hours after general anesthesia. I would strongly recommend taking at least Tuesday off.

    8. Ashley*

      How do you normally do with medical stuff? I would tell them you hope to return Tuesday but you will have to let them know. For reference it took me 3 days to be functional, and I don’t even think I could have left the house the next day. Despite my efforts I am usually a terrible patient when it comes to reactions to anything.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I have a high pain tolerance and am used to pushing through pain/illness (obviously if it’s something contagious I stay home). I’ll be going under anesthesia, which I haven’t done in over 20 years, so I have no idea how I’ll react.

        1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          You are asking for advice, but you’re contradicting nearly everyone here, which isn’t going to help you. Maybe think about why you’re not actually willing to hear what people are saying.

          The best thing to do is plan for the worst, hope for the best. If your mouth won’t stop bleeding or the anesthesia makes you barf nonstop or the pain is so bad you can’t focus, you will not be able to work. Take the original time. Don’t make assumptions without checking with your doctor.

          1. my cat is prettier than me*

            You sound like my mother (this is a good thing, trust me). The unwillingness to accept help is something I struggled with a lot as a child. I put all this pressure on myself even when no one else expected as much from me as I did. I’ve been in therapy forever, and I was able to quash this thinking for a while, but it’s recently come back and I don’t know why.

            1. Goldie*

              I really encourage you to take this as an opportunity to shift your mindset. Why aim for the minimum amount of time needed? This is a choice you are making. Then others in your office might feel pressured to act the same and push themselves when there is no need to.

              25 years from now would you be happy that you were trying to work they day you had surgery? Or would you be glad that you prioritized your own needs?

            2. HD*

              Instead of quashing your thinking, try processing and questioning it and trying to break down why you feel the way you do. Once you start doing that regularly, the emotions/mindset will start to work on and dissolve themselves over time.

            3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

              Suggestion for your consideration:falling back into an early habit of overfunctioning could be unintentionally trying to (over) compensate for the overwhelmed feeling of burnout, and the stressful uncertain conditions that promoted it (as MsSolo(UK) points out elsewher ein the this thread).

              Legit medical leave could be a great opportunity to reset that instinctive response and make a deliberate choice different from your old pattern.

              Also I don’t think anyone else in comments has brought up this potential scenario, so:
              When I had my wisdom teeth out (a Friday afternoon, so I’d have the weekend to recover without taking leave, which I had little of then), I felt fine as soon as the anesthesia wore off and was perfectly functional with very little pain for the next day and a half. I had a pleasant weekend eating mushy food, doing college homework and light housekeeping. It was on the second day afterward that I felt the worst and had to call out of work just when I’d been expecting to return, and actually take the prescription painkillers I hadn’t needed until then.

              My supervisor and another coworker who’d had wisdom teeth extraction or similar proceedures said it’s not uncommon for post-surgical recovery to follow that timeline, worst discomfort on day 2 or 3; their surgeons had warned them.

    9. I should really pick a name*

      I’d say your better off taking Mon-Wed off.
      If you’re feeling better, you can come back early.

    10. MsSolo (UK)*

      Unpredictability is an important factor in burn out – it’s not just that sometimes you’re busy, but that you can’t plan for being busy, so you can’t relax even when it’s quiet. Especially in offices where there are a lot of crises; often there’s something (someone) blocking people from forward planning while it’s quiet which would prevent the crises and allow for a more regulated workflow, which can increase the stress and anxiety because you can’t take control of the situation.

      Check out this post about Sick Systems, and see if it resonates:
      https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

      Personally, I’d take Monday off altogether, and work from home for the next couple of days. If those painkillers hit you hard, you want to know before you log in to your work emails! And taking it off means you don’t have to worry about whether or not you’ll be busy while you’re initially recovering, even if you’re busier the next day.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        This really resonates with me, wow. I think what’s difficult is that my employer hasn’t created this environment out of malice, so I can’t really say they’re doing anything TO me.

        1. Not your trauma bucket*

          If they haven’t done anything to fix it, then they’re still responsible.
          I came here to say the same thing. I’ve been in the exact situation you describe – escalating responsibilities without compensation, unpredictable fires that only *you* can handle, etc. My burn out was EXTREME and took almost 18 months to start feeling a little normal and almost three years to actually recover. Just something to think about.

    11. Unicornucopia*

      When I had my wisdom teeth out, I felt fine to be around people fairly soon after (maybe two days), but had a reaction to a medication that meant I could hardly walk more than a few steps without feeling extraordinarily dizzy and nauseated, like I’m not sure I could have gotten to my car, much less driven to work. After switching to ibuprofen only I was fine. I haven’t heard of this happening to anyone else, but I just mean to point out that everyone is different in their recoveries and I would think it best to plan for a range of options. If working from home at a reduced capacity is an option, I’d probably recommend that Wednesday if you don’t think you can be fully unavailable that long, but you shouldn’t feel bad if your needs keep you out of work longer than other people were.

    12. Super Duper Anon*

      Everybody reacts to surgery very differently. I had mine out in high school and I remember my vocal teacher very sweetly trying to reassure me that I would be fine and recover quickly, since I was so anxious about it. I had the surgery on a Thursday and was really out of it for the four days I was home. My swelling was so bad, it took weeks to go down. When I did go back to school on the Monday, my teacher took one look at my face and said that I could just sit out of practice for a while!

      You have no idea how you will react, so you should be prepared for all scenarios.

    13. Hyaline*

      Which would be worse for those you work with–having you out three days, planned, or anticipating having you there Tuesday and Wednesday and then you call in sick? They can deal without you for a few days, but often knowing they’re on the hook for covering is better than the surprise (not that anyone should feel bad about calling in sick, but it seems it’s often better to plan when you’re able).

      Caveat of “everyone is different” but plan that you’re getting nothing done on Monday, on Tuesday you will probably feel the worst of the soreness because the local will have worn off plus you’ll still have plenty of swelling, oozing, and general mouth unpleasantness (talking may be difficult and mumbly, depending), and *maybe* Wednesday you’ll be on the upswing. I would take those extra two days off to recover and *maybe* tell your boss that you’ll be available via email on Wednesday.

      Also, I saw your update on pain management–I also just feel sick from most pain meds and didn’t prefer to take them post-wisdom-teeth-removal, but I’d advise getting a scrip from the doc even if you don’t intend to fill and use it, just in case.

      1. office hobbit*

        I agree with this.

        Definitely do no work on Monday. I was fully knocked out for mine and went to a friend’s house that evening and apparently was saying a ton of nonsense. I only remember dozing off in front of the movie we were watching. Don’t answer work emails in this state.

        Also, if you drag yourself in on Tuesday but realize you weren’t ready, it’s going to be much harder to take Wednesday off after that.

    14. Other Alice*

      I had all wisdom teeth removed a few years ago. I had to have 3 separate operations (both upper teeth, then each lower tooth separately) because of some issues I won’t get into. The recovery times were wildly different even though the operation was generally the same. Once, I had a lot of swelling and was very much out of it for 3 or 4 days. The next time I was fine by the next day. It’s really hard to predict and I would suggest you give yourself a few extra time to recover, just to be on the safe side.

    15. Bast*

      I hate to jump on the bandwagon of “everyone is different” but it’s true. I worked retail at the time, and they were pretty unforgiving with stuff like that, (really, any call out for an illness was “suck it up and come in”) and frankly, I needed every last dollar and couldn’t afford to miss a shift. I had my wisdom teeth out in the morning, and went in to work the closing shift. It was pretty crappy, but manageable with pain medication. My friend, on the other hand, scheduled for a Friday, took Friday out, and then “laid low” as he put it for the next few days, and took it easy. He didn’t go back to work until the following Tuesday.

    16. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      I’m going to collapse answers to about 3 sub-threads in this comment. These were my experiences when a wisdom tooth was removed a couple of months ago:

      Take 2 days off and do not touch your laptop on day 1. It’s not just the after effects of surgery you’ll be dealing with; you can’t eat anything solid for hours – potentially the rest of the day – and starvation also drags your mind and body down.

      I was not given prescription painkillers. I was told to alternate the max dose of ibuprophen and the max dose of tylenol every 4 hours (so, 1000 mg tylenol and then 4 hours later 600 mg advil then 4 hours later 1000 mg tylenol). It wasn’t great, but it kept the pain down to a dull enough roar that I could treat it like my usual chronic pain.

      You will need to ice your face or you’re going to look like a chipmunk for days.

      Assume that you will have to chew with your tongue for at least 2 more days and have your refrigerator stocked accordingly – eggs, rice pudding, juice instead of fruit, etc.

      ALWAYS put your own health and needs before an office no matter how many fires they have. Never be more loyal to a company than they will be to you, which is not at all.

    17. Paint N Drip*

      My experience getting my (non-complicated) wisdom teeth out was fine. But I didn’t react well to the pain meds (which I DID need for the first few days) and I was not fit to be at work for a day or two following – I was generally confused, was super emotional, and very tired. YMMV on this front wildly, hopefully you know how you deal with pain & meds already to help your planning.

    18. my cat is prettier than me*

      Hi all. I just spoke with my boss and we decided we’ll play it by ear. I’ll definitely be out Monday, and we’ll see how I feel Tuesday/Wednesday.

      Thank you for the advice.

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        Good deal. Prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.

        I hope it goes well and you recover quickly!

        1. my cat is prettier than me*

          Thanks! We have our company picnic next Thursday, and I’m bummed I won’t be able to eat anything. We’re doing a taco bar. I might just scoop some queso into a cup and drink it lol.

      2. allathian*

        I’m glad, and I hope you have a quick and easy recovery!

        I had my wisdom teeth out when I was 35. They were fully extruded and not in the way of other teeth, so my dentist finally decided to extract them when I got caries in them. I had the the procedure on a Thursday, and I took the Friday off. I took opioids the first day and after that, OTC ibuprofen, and I was a bit sore when I returned to work on the Monday.

        My SIL had all of hers out at the same time under general anesthesia. She had a bad reaction to the anesthetic and had to be hospitalized for dehydration because she couldn’t keep anything down for several days. She was swollen and bruised for more than a week after that.

    19. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I was on tylenol with codeine for a week after having my wisdom teeth out. I would not plan on being at work for the first part of the week. I took it particularly hard, but your face is going to be swollen and uncomfortable for days.

    20. Chirpy*

      I’d plan to take more time off. Better to come back early if you’re doing well, than have to come back while you’re having issues. I had very little problems with my wisdom teeth removal despite two of them coming in sideways, and not much visible swelling, but even I took over a week to feel 100%. One of my friends had to go to the emergency room several days later for uncontrollable bleeding, and most people I know had puffy faces for several days. If you have the option to work from home, I’d take it.

    21. Ceanothus*

      My brother and I got our wisdom teeth out the same day. I got up the next morning, called my boss, and was like “I feel like hell, but if I feel this bad I might as well get paid.” and went in. I wasn’t really in a place to work for probably… probably twelve hours after surgery? I was not client facing for a week after surgery and that was a good thing because I wasn’t my best self.

      My brother was bedridden for a week.

      Consider that if your company needs to put it’s best foot forward, having someone come in immediately post-surgery will not be a good look. That’s not a sign of a healthy company.

    22. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I had mine out on a Friday and was not able to go to work on Monday. I would plan on taking the extra time, it is usually easier to walk back time off then stretch it last minute. Wisdom tooth extraction varies from barely more than pulling a regular tooth to pretty extensive oral surgery and sometimes they don’t really know until they get in there.

      If the office can’t handle 3 days without you they need a freaking wake up call. No time like the present.

    23. Zephy*

      If you don’t own this company, you can’t care more about it than the people who do. Take the three days. Hell, take the whole week. If the place burns down without you, it’s not your fault they suck so bad.

      I had my wisdom teeth out on a Thursday, wasn’t back to work until Tuesday and I was still way off my game that day. I didn’t take more than a couple of the opioid painkillers they sent me home with, and those just in the first 48-72 hours post-op, but I was still sore even with Tylenol, and I was fuzzy-brained for days after my last Percocet wore off.

    24. Quinalla*

      Do you know if any of them are impacted or otherwise expected problematic removal? If so, I would NOT plan on being fine the next day. If they are just hanging out being cool, then likely yes you will be generally fine the next day. You will probably still have swelling and if you bruise easily like I do, you may be bruised for several days after swelling goes down.

      Also, depending on your age, surgery is harder on you the older you are.

      Definitely plan to do NOTHING the day of.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I’m 28, so the recovery is going to be longer. It will probably be awhile before I can run again : (

    25. PostalMixup*

      The final Harry Potter book came out days after I got my wisdom teeth out. I read it straight through as I always did for HP releases. And then I read it again several months later and realized that I had no memory of whole swaths of the book. I also had to leave work early after I’d gone back because I’d developed an infection and my entire face swelled up. Be gentle with yourself. If you can, make those decisions when you get there.

    26. Maggie*

      I couldn’t even function for a week so that would have been impossible for me. I went back to work after like 6 days and almost fainted and had to go home. I definitely don’t think there’s any humanly way you’d be ready to be customer facing in less than 24 hours but everyone is different. It’s unpredictable tho

    27. TheBunny*

      Everyone is different. I had all 4 of mine out at once and I used Advil and some ice on my jaw for a couple of hours.

      Others have a really tough time with this. There is no way to know.

    28. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      This is actually an opportunity for you to rest. To lie in bed and sleep or just listen to quiet music. Let your whole system calm down and recover from the anaesthetic. I haven’t seen it mentioned so far, but it is important to maintain the blood clots in the tooth sockets for a few days if you can, to avoid getting a ‘dry socket’ and reducing the chances of infection. – so, no drinking from straws or chewing on things and creating suction over the holes. Gently letting salty water move around in your mouth to keep it clean. Wisdom teeth are often pretty big – this is a commonplace operation, but not a trivial one. My suggestion to you is to plan to be away from work for three days, and to treat yourself very kindly and soothingly. Best wishes to you!

      1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

        Forgot to say, resting your jaw and facial muscles after the physical strain they have been under will be a lot easier if you are not talking!
        Ask your doctor/surgeon what they specifically recommend for you for pain relief, and make sure you have some in the house, in case you decide to utilise it.

  7. How old are you?*

    I’m a 68 year old cis female working in a small non-profit with about 250 employees. There’s quite a wide age range, but I would say most co-workers are in their 30s or 40s.

    Thanks to great genes (plus sunscreen and a healthy lifestyle!), by all objective measures I look around mid-fifties and feel younger. In our age-obsessed society I keep my actual age private because I don’t want to be pigeon-holed by it. I’ve seen this happen with a friend in her 60s.

    Occasionally in a general discussion about age someone will ask me how old I am, and I simply say “Oh I’ve decided to stop counting!” in a very light-hearted way. I don’t love this, because it sounds coy. Does anyone have a better alternative?

    Also, part of our client-base consists of children, and we all know how determined they can be: “I’m 8 and a half, how old are you?” I’ve sometimes answered in hobbit years “Eleventy-one” but that just confuses the little dears.

    Should I just come out, give an accurate answer and brave the amazed stares and whispers that someone of such decrepitude is still working?

    1. Valerie Loves Me*

      Take this with a grain of salt because I recognize that ageism exists!… But, part of me thinks you would be doing a service to all your younger colleagues and represent the continued capabilities of your demographic if you shared your age without concern. If your age doesn’t bother you, then I would share it!

      I’m in my late 40s. I have grey hair. I used to dye it. I don’t anymore, partly because I’m lazy. But also, because I have grey hair. This is not an impediment. I don’t personally need it to feel prettier and I definitely don’t want to do it so other people think I’m… prettier, younger, etc. I’m sure I’d look younger if I died it (also have good genes). But… I just don’t wanna. So there.

    2. Desk lamp*

      Yes, just say your age! It’s an achievement! I’m in my 40s and I’ve started sharing my age whenever possible because I’m proud of it.

      Your concerns about ageism are real, and I don’t want to minimize them. If you feel at all comfortable sharing your age though, please do, you’ll smooth the road a little more for everyone.

    3. MsM*

      For the kids, you can probably just ask “how old do you think I am”? The answer will be anything from 20 to 120, and you can congratulate them on a good guess and/or knowing such big numbers.

      For adults or anyone who’s old enough to know better, I think “I’ve stopped counting” is fine. Or you could go with “why do you ask?/that’s strictly need to know info.” The point is, you don’t want to answer, and you don’t have to.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I love it when kids try to guess adults’ ages. When I was a 16-year-old camp counselor I think one of the kids thought I was 40.

        Another good answer: “I forget!” Although I guess don’t do this if you are worried ppl might suspect you have real memory problems. My brother regularly forgets how old I am even after telling him to stop trying to remember and to just do the math b/c I’ll always be the same amount of years younger than he is.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          When I was 16, my then 4 year old cousin asked me if I had to hide from the dinosaurs when they were around.

        2. Attractive Nuisance*

          Reminds me of when I was assisting a kindergarten dance class and the students thought I was the teacher’s daughter. We were, at most, 8 years apart in age.

        3. Elsewise*

          I can’t remember what the context was, but a few weeks ago something was annoying me and felt trivial and teenagey, so I said out loud “I am a thirty-five year old man!”

          I’m thirty-two.

          I’m also a cis woman.

      2. Nightengale*

        for kids I wouldn’t tell them but their guesses can be funny

        I got a job as a camp counselor at 21 but the counselors went down to 16. And the campers (program for kids with disabilities) went up to 18. So none of us were supposed to tell the campers our age, because it wouldn’t be good if the older ones did but the younger ones refused.

        When asked, which was often, I just said “old.”

        Some of the kids said I wasn’t old and “you’re probably in your 20s.”
        And then the Sweet Adolines came to sing and they sang music from the 1950s. I knew all the words and was singing along. The kids knew that the music was old and they started to say to each other “maybe she really IS OLD!”

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I remember as a child I got the impression that being old was “bad” partly because teachers/adults in my life refused to answer how old they were! If they had all answered matter-of-factly “43” and “68” etc. I would have thought those ages were just as “good”/neutral as being 25 or [insert other “good” age here]. So my vote is to share your age, especially with the children.

    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I agree with Valerie, I’d say if someone asks just tell them the truth. I have a friend who wouldn’t tell anyone her age and once mildly chastised me at asking someone’s age and I was like, I don’t think we should be ashamed of our age! Last week we were hanging out and she casually dropped her age in conversation and I didn’t even comment on it, but maybe she agrees with me now?

      My grandmother NEVER told anyone her age and everyone else in the family always thought that was weird; consequently, everyone else in the family talks about their age with no shame. I think older generations *were* ashamed of their age but older generations also were a lot more biased about a lot of things that hopefully people are less biased about now.

      I’d be curious if people started treating you differently once they knew how old you were, but given that ageism usually starts around 50 anyway, I don’t see what difference an extra decade on that would make. Especially if you are competent at your job.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Where are you / what field are you in that ageism doesn’t start until 50? That is very, very different from my experience as a woman in tech.

    6. Baldrick*

      I really like “I’ve stopped counting”. I haven’t had anyone ask me my age at work!

      I also like the idea of asking kids for their guess.

      1. ferrina*

        I agree- I like the original answer!

        I’ve also answered silly things like “older than dirt” and “suuuuper ancient”, which makes my kids laugh and argue about how old I could really be. Or even “I’m so old, that when I was a kid, I rode a brontosaurus to school. It was uphill both ways, because gravity hadn’t been invented yet.” Bonus points if you can side track them to talk about history!

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      If I feel like the question (from an adult) is reasonable and not rude, I would answer honestly. If it’s intrusive and irrelevant, I might flippantly answer “old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway!” For children, I’d just answer honestly because why not?

    8. Tio*

      I understand why the above people want you to share your age, but tbh I wouldn’t if it were me. If you decide you don’t want to, one thing I have seen helpful for kids is to turn the question on them: “How old do you think I am?” And then no matter what they say go “Wow, you’re really close! Great job!” and then try and subject change them. For adults I would do something like “Oh don’t worry, I’m old enough to drive/vote/drink!” (pick your fave for the situation) It’s not that much less coy than yours, but tbh you’re being coy about it, and that’s fine.

    9. Glomarization, Esq.*

      GenXer here. Since about the age of 40, I’ve declined to tell my co-workers my age. In my view, absolutely nothing good can come of anybody other than HR knowing my actual age. Ageism is real, though I’m glad it doesn’t appear to be an issue for OP. But different workplaces and industries are different.

    10. pally*

      My dad used to express his age in binary:
      at age 50= 0b110010
      THAT made for some very confused looks.

      RE: ageism
      I’m for concealing it. If your age will cost you jobs or other opportunities, why make that sacrifice?

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I’m a geek, so I use hexadecimal, which works for my spouse (41), but not as well for me (3E). I only use binary for birthday candles (lit is a 1, unlit is a 0).

        1. Meh*

          me too. had my daughter start calculating how many candles to put ,and which ones were lit (1) or unlit (0).
          and have to routinely stop well meaning helpers from trying to light the unlit ones.

    11. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      It sounds coy because it is. So either decide not to be coy or keep being coy. You aren’t talking about “society” or your friend’s life, you’re talking about your specific workplace. Are they ageist? Have you seen people lose out on opportunities because of age? If not, I would be honest.

      But then I personally detest the thinking that “a lady never reveals her age” because it is both sexist and ageist. Fuck that.

    12. Someone stole my croissant*

      For adults, your answer is great.
      For kids, I suggest my 5th grade teacher’s go to, “it’s rude to ask a lady her age.” Say it with a smile and a wink. Depending on how childish some adults are, this response may be more appropriate :)

    13. Sharpie*

      Ask them how how old they think you are. Kids like guessing games and it can lead into a discussion of numbers and guessing numbers more generally.

    14. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Don’t. I look 10-15 years younger than I am and people get weird when they find out my real age.

      1. Chirpy*

        Same. I don’t actively try to hide my age (except when creepy old guys guess “21” because, sir, if you really think that’s my age, I’m way too young for you, and if they’re trying to flatter me, BIG FAIL) but inevitably when most people find out my real age they get weird about it.

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        Same. I went back to school in my late 40’s and my fellow students — ranging in age from 20 up to late 30’s — all treated me differently when they found out my real age.

        I’m 57 now and six years into a new career. Literally everyone in my department and 90% of the people I interact with in other departments is younger than by at least a decade. Most are two to three decades younger.

        There is no way in hell I’m going to tell them my real age.

        I get that it sucks for women to have to put on farces like this. But I’m not willing to sacrifice my career in the hopes of moving the needle on ageism and sexism a fraction of a millimeter.

        Thankfully, no one has asked; but if they do, I’ll use something like what was suggested above, “Oh, don’t worry, I’m old enough to vote!”

        Also, I go out of my way to not mention pop culture from my childhood. No singing the theme song to “Happy Days” or “The Jeffersons”. No mention of “The Brady Bunch” unless I say that I watched it as reruns. [Technically true; I just also happened to have watched it as first-runs.]

        When I slip up and accidentally sing, “Welcome back,” (the opening line to the “Welcome Back, Kotter” TV show theme song) to someone who just returned from a long vacation and they look at me like I have three heads, I recover by saying, “It’s from some old TV show reruns on late-night TV.” [Again, technically true.]

      3. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Ditto. I went gray early but my face always looked younger because of genetics, geography (have lived many years in notoriously overcast places), and skincare — lucky genes being the biggest factor, I’m sure. Anyway, it’s like people’s brains short out when they learn my age — though less so now that I’m past 50.

    15. Retired Accountant*

      I would not. This leads into “why is she still working? She should let someone younger have her job? She should be on Social Security/Medicare not working here.” I would not dismiss ageism as lightly as some of the commenters.

      I might say “old enough” if asked.

    16. Tree*

      I wouldn’t share my age at work. I am late 40s and am told I look younger. I’ve found people in the workplace do treat me different once they know my age. I’ve see it with both younger coworkers and older coworkers at two different companies. I’d love to challenge ageism assumptions, but I also need to be aware of the impact to my career.

    17. Hyaline*

      PS if you would rather not share your age, when it comes to kids, it’s totally ok to explain to them that “some grownups don’t like to share their age.” Kids aren’t owed answers (said as the parent of two very inquisitive kids).

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Just want to say I really like the idea of saying “grown ups” rather than “ladies.” The latter gets used a lot and I think it does play into the idea that either it’s bad for a woman to get old but OK for a man or else that women are sensitive souls that we have to take care not to hurt.

      2. Chirpy*

        I like this so much better than saying “some ladies” because even as a kid it felt icky to learn that someday I would be expected to be ashamed of my age in a way boys were never told to be.

    18. A Person*

      Unfortunately, I absolutely agree with continuing to give non-answers. To be fair I’m in tech where I think it’s particularly bad – but I’ve seen assumptions people get when someone is significantly older than they are. The hard part is that *most* people will likely be totally ok about it, but even one or two who aren’t would be a pain in the butt.

    19. Anon for This*

      At work I say “old enough to know better than to answer that!” For kids, I usually ask them how old they think I am. My favorites are little kids who often will have wildly wrong guesses. My favorite will always be the little boy who thought I was 17!

    20. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Ageism exists and it’s not your job to fight that battle if you think there’s any chance it could affect how you are treated at work.

      Or if you just want your privacy.
      Your answer is fine, or you could say “in my prime”!

      Your coworkers don’t have the right to know all your private data, only what you choose to share. I always kept this to a superficial polite minimum, but fortunately in an engineering environment our communication was mostly grunts & smiles

    21. office hobbit*

      I would suggest continuing to not share your age. At 68, people are going to wonder if you’re thinking about retirement and will be leaving soon. You might find yourself looked over or not included in long-term projects. Even if everyone you work with is well meaning and is only doing this subconsciously! That’s a big risk for no real benefit.

    22. OtterB*

      I think the key to non-answers without sounding coy is to say them in a straightforward way. “I’ve stopped counting” seems reasonable to me. I worked with a woman many years ago in a mainly-male environment. She was probably in her 50s, at a guess. She replied to questions about her age with “29 and some months.”

    23. Old not decrepit*

      Just answer the question. You seem to have a lot of baggage and exoectations around how others will react to that – it’s probably time to try to let go of all that.

      Most people honestly don’t care at all, and your efforts to avoid answering just make you seem like the age obsessed one.

      1. Awkwardness*

        Women learn early on that it is difficult to talk about age. Either you are too you to be taken seriously (while the male colleagues are full of ideas” and “promising”) or you are too old (while the male colleague “experienced”). That has nothing to do with “baggage” or being “age obsessed” but differences in treatment a lot of commenters on this site repeatedly have experienced in their work life.

    24. How OWD R U???*

      I don’t share my age because I’ve been the youngest in a group of retired people. When people hit their 80s they’re little toddlers sharing their age “*I’m* 81 and HALF!” When they find I’m much younger, they act like I’m a teenager who needs life advice. It’s condescending & insufferable. I just tell them that age is just a number & I don’t share it. People can be really pushy. I just smile & look at them mildly.

      1. linger*

        That symmetry is telling. At one end of life, an extra few months can be a significant milestone; and at the other, it may be a hard-fought victory (though maybe not one we remember much of later). In between, when we have decades behind us and expect more to come, mere months can feel trivial by comparison.

    25. fhqwhgads*

      Absolutely no need to answer that.
      When this has come up for me it’s usually because people think I’m WAY too young. Like when I was 30 and someone though I hadn’t graduated yet.
      I also have a two-year old who regularly tells me I’m six. Occasionally I’m four! So don’t worry about giving the kiddos a straight answer either. I know you said 8 so way older than my toddler, but still kids usually have a bad frame of reference for ages unless they know their parent’s age and yours is the same one.
      When people suspected me of being too young I took to answering “probably about 10 years older than you think I am”. But since you get to avoid the unfortunate reality of widespread discrimination by them thinking you’re younger, there’s no reason to correct them. It’s not their business. It’s rude to ask.

    27. Maggie*

      To be completely blunt people are probably aware of your age within 5 years. Everyone I’ve met that claims to look over a decade younger does not. Not giving an age is going to make people think you’re insecure/old and children think 25 year olds are ancient, so I’d either just be completely honest or flat out lie and say you’re 50.

    28. BikeWalkBarb*

      The other staff need to learn that questions about age give rise to lawsuits about age-related bias. Without sounding stuffy, something along the lines of “Funny you should ask–since that’s the kind of question that can get you in trouble with HR” might be a better choice than stating your age or laughing it off. You don’t have to come off as heavy-handed with this, but people really do need to learn to stay away from the kinds of personal comments or questions that relate to a variety of biases.

    29. Healthcare Worker*

      As a fellow 68 year old cis female who is still in the workforce, I vote to continue as you have been doing. I don’t share my age either, as ageism is very real, particularly over 65. I like “who do you ask?” or “I don’t count any more” as answers. I rarely get asked, but agree with others that it’s no one else’s business.

    30. sometimeswhy*

      I think that, “I’ve decided to stop counting,” is a great answer with, “What a weird thing to want to know about a colleague!” as a follow up for persistent people.

      I’ve sometimes used, “Older than I look but younger than I feel.” It’s weird enough when people find out I have adult children (like ADULT adult, not like barely adult) and it starts to spiral into them trying to figure out how old I was when I had them, which is also none of their business.

      1. OP*

        Hey, OP here. Thanks for all the great – if conflicting – answers, lots to think about, appreciate you taking the time.
        I especially liked the idea of getting kids to guess age, and also completely agree with staying away from anything to do with ‘ladies’ and age.

    31. Awkwardness*

      Most of the time, lived experience is more important than age and I find it difficult to rely on age as an indicator. A person could be young and have experiences of failure and resiliance, while an older person was never in that situation; an older person might have experience of many difficult projects while a younger enthusiastic person is overwhelmed.

      So I would not take the extra step to conceal my age but I would not bring it up without need. Let your behaviour and work speak for themselves. I liked your wording and found nothing coy about it as long as it is delivered with a smile.

    32. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

      Lean in – tell them you’re over 500.

      They’ll know you’re joking, or truly believe you are a vampire.

      (I should note I work with teenagers, and they already think I’m old and ancient since I’m An Adult)

  8. Ella Minnow Pea*

    I just wanted to share a positive update! I posted recently about struggling in a toxic workplace and survival tips while I was job hunting. I accepted a fabulous new position that I am excited for and can’t wait to start. Putting in my notice felt so amazing. Thank you for all the support, and a word of encouragement for everyone else dealing with the same situation!

  9. Underpaid*

    I would like to continue the discussion that Disheartened Non-Profit Worker started last week (https://www.askamanager.org/2024/07/open-thread-july-19-2024.html#comment-4793010). I feel this is an important topic and questions posted way down the list don’t get a lot of visibility. The questions being asked were: Why do employers not just give good employees a raise/promotion, rather than lose them and have to go through the trouble of hiring and training a potentially worse replacement? Do employers know this, or should employees send clearer signals?

    I used to work for a multinational company that definitely has the means to be an outstanding employer, but chooses to outsource a good chunk of its workforce to India instead. When it needs skills and competencies that the Indian market doesn’t offer, it hires in Europe and North America with a “competitive” salary, which as far as I can tell means an average salary in the local market. No ambition whatsoever to be the best, as long as it offers a salary high enough to prevent mass resignations, it deals with the ones that happen every now and then.

    I had been working for three years at that company and didn’t realize how terribly paid I was. But I had a good manager who cared for her staff. She initiated a review with HR and eventually I received a 15% salary adjustment. I was ecstatic at first, but bittersweetness quickly settled in when I realized for how long I had been underpaid. When yearly raise season came along, I didn’t get one because of that salary adjustment I received a few months prior, which felt a bit cheap considering that this company typically gives 2%-2.5% raises if the performance review is satisfactory. I started job searching and found one that offered another 15% without needing to negotiate. And that’s when I realized I was still underpaid. My manager offered to counter, but I declined. One of my colleagues confessed to me that he applied for the same position, twice, was offered the job, twice, and “chickened out” (his words), twice. So I left a great team of competent and experienced colleagues who are probably as underpaid as I was, and to some extent, they probably know it too. Two years later, they’re still there, while I’m now making as much money as a senior at my old company with still plenty of room to grow.

    So to answer Disheartened Non-Profit Worker’s first question: Why do employers behave this way? Because complacent employees allow them to. Would it be cheaper to pay the employees who resign what they’re worth instead of replacing them? Probably, and that’s why employers offer a counter. Would it be cheaper to pay ALL employees what they’re worth? Probably not, because many stay no matter what. I understand that it sucks to leave work and colleagues that you like behind because your employer doesn’t value you, but you have to, not only for your sake, but because, to answer the second question, that’s the loudest message you can send. But one resignation alone is not enough for that message to sink in. My opinion probably isn’t popular here, but employees also bear some responsibility for the way employers behave.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Wow, that’s a hot take — you’re blaming individual employees for the way employers behave? You’re right that that’ll be unpopular here. The real answer is that to upper management, individual employees are for the most part replaceable, so the c-suite doesn’t care about mid-tier employees resigning. They just don’t. I’ve never, ever seen a company actually increase benefits in response to people resigning. If anything, they go “cool, now we can save money because we’ve reduced headcount” and nothing changes.

      “many stay no matter what” is a bad faith argument. You’re completely ignoring reasons people might not be able to leave jobs. First, job searching is a time commitment. Second, the job market is not uniform in all areas. My specialization only exists in a few parts of the country, and few places let you do what I do remote. If we had to move, I’d want to stay with my current company and go full-time-remote, and if I needed to job search, I’d have to change industries. Sometimes people have to prioritize things other than pay: flexible hours, specific benefits, a short commute. Or someone might value the mission of a nonprofit enough to put up with lower cost.

      Finally, starting a new job does itself have drawbacks. You’ve lost institutional knowledge and political capital. Your new coworkers don’t know you; you have to build up trust and respect. This is daunting if you have anything going on in your personal life that prevents you from prioritizing work (childcare) and can’t “lean in”. I have a baby and wouldn’t be able to put my best foot forward at a new job. I wouldn’t consider leaving my current role unless something drastic and very bad happened.

      1. ferrina*

        I just want to highlight No Tribble At All’s first point- a bad upper management doesn’t care about turnover. Yes, they find it inconvenient, but they would never see it as a repudiation on themself or their practices.

        I worked somewhere where almost an entire department turned over in the course of the year. It didn’t get rid of the toxic C-Suite and their good old boys club, it only offered “competitive” pay to new hires (“competitive” being “we compete to see how low we can pay you while still having you think it’s reasonable”), and ultimately nothing changed, there was just a new crop of worker bees. It was only when the shareholders stopped getting their money that the CEO was fired and a new, more reasonable CEO with reasonable practices was hired.

      2. Colette*

        I don’t think it’s about blaming individual employees – obviously the company itself determines what it is willing to pay – but the way the company determines that is by what the employees are willing to work for.

        If I’m hiring someone to mow my lawn and I see that 3 different people are willing to do it for $X, I’m going to pay $X, even if I could afford more. If I hire someone for $X this year and next year I ask them if they want to do it again for $X and they agree, I’m not going to look for other options, I’m just going to hire them again. On the other hand, if they say that they’ll do it for $X+5, then I might check to see if $X is still the going rate.

        Of course there are reasons that someone might not want to look for a new job – just like there are reasons why a company might not want to have to hire someone new. But if you’re not willing to take a new job, you’re making the decision to work for whatever the company will pay you. And that’s OK! But it’s a choice you’re making.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          This is not the only way of setting wages. It’s one very common way, but you do actually have the option to offer a higher wage than the default. You might do that because you want to have your pick of the cream of the crop. You might do it because you believe that nobody should be paid less than $Y for any work. You might do it because you believe that higher wages in an area is a social good that you want to contribute to.

          It depends what you as employer want to prioritize – quality of employees? Social uplift? Spending the least money? Your values about fair pay?

          1. Colette*

            That’s true – but most companies cannot pay more than the average salary, because otherwise the average would change.

            Companies are encouraged to cut labour costs; that’s what the stock market does, as a rule. And they’re more motivated to raise salaries when bringing on someone new than they are for the employees they already have.

            Good companies care about paying their people fairly, and will, for example, raise the salaries of their existing employees when the market changes. But companies move slowly, and the larger they are, the more people involved in making decisions.

            In my lawn mowing example, I can pay twice the going rate if I want. But if I have a company of 20,000 employees, it may not be in my best interests to pay twice the going rate – it may not get me significantly better staff, and it will cause the workforce to stagnate because most people won’t leave for a job that pays half what they’re currently making.

            1. GythaOgden*

              Also what goes out must come in. Particularly in non-profits, there just might not be the income to pay out double the salary people are on now. Wage increases without corresponding productivity increases also simply lead to inflation.

      3. Dandylions*

        I don’t think it’s a bad take to say that workers are in part to blame for their complacency in the abuse we receive as workers.

        After all we have the power to unionize, seize the means of production through general strikes, lobby congress through PACs, etc. etc. etc. Every American not benefiting enough from their labor could walk off the job right now and force congress to pass paid parental leave, a living wage tied to inflation, UBI, Medicare for all, and a daily basis for OT, just to name a few.

        Instead most of us believe the lies that we are “above unionizing” and collective action. We then handed over more and more power to CEOs as we feared the great recession, etc. Even now the engines of complacency, misinformation, and straight up pride and prejudice work to make people act against their own self interest.

        We the victims are definitely partly at fault.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          You write that future like it’s a sure thing, but it’s not. Probably such an action would produce some results, and some people would still be left behind, because that’s a great way to divide a movement. Are the people who “get theirs” first going to stick it out for the rest? If they don’t, will this kind of organizing work in the future? It’ll certainly be a lot harder.

          Such an action works when there is organization – who’s providing the organization in your mass strike? Where does the social cohesion come from, to make people believe that their peers will stand up for and with them?

          Everyone participating in this mass strike is taking a risk. Some risks are bigger than others, and we don’t have a social safety net. All of the medical care and housing that relies on a single income – how are you making it safe, or at least safER, for those workers to walk off and not worry about the fundamental safety of their families? Unions have strike funds, and make significant preparations for strikes.

          Yes, in theory, every undervalued individual in the country could spontaneously choose to walk off the job, and probably things would change – probably. On the other hand, we’ve seen huge movements fizzle – Occupy, for one – and not result in the massive change that was expected. There is an enormous amount of political and social power arrayed against this kind of positive change and mass movements. It’s disingenuous to suggest that those barriers don’t exist.

      4. Girasol*

        I’ve always thought that it was the “you’re just lucky you have a job!” mindset that took over after the dot com bust. At least in IT after all the layoffs, really good people were a dime a dozen, willing to take a job for less than they were worth and tolerate it rather than face the awfulness of job hunting again. Employers got used to the idea that employees wouldn’t dare quit no matter how badly they were treated or paid. So when the market got better and more employees started looking and then quitting, employers were spluttering “but..but..you can’t do that!” Hasn’t that been the source of a lot of questions here? “My boss says I can’t quit without months of advance notice” and “my boss says I was obligated to tell them when I started looking” and “I gave notice and my boss is throwing a tantrum” and wasn’t there a “my boss said I have to find my replacement?” I put it down to entitled employers who are in denial and a decade or two behind the times.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think the conclusion you’re drawing here is the right one. Like, at all. You do indeed have to look out for yourself and decide to leave if you’re not getting what you think you deserve at your current workplace, but I don’t think “employees let their employers abuse them” is really why they’re paying you as little as you can.

      Like the person who started last week’s thread, I work in non-profits and most of the time the answer to this question is a) budget, and b) there are no roles to get promoted into.

      Budget is self-explanatory, since we’re not lining shareholder pockets and there isn’t a magical pool of money to draw from if only someone else would take slightly less profit.

      Promotions seem rare within the non-profit world, as far as I can tell. Not saying they don’t happen, but the idea of going from Llama Groomer Level 1 to Llama Groomer Level 2 based on experience/tenure/testing into that category isn’t something I’ve encountered regularly. You can apply to and get jobs that are higher level / pay more / have more responsibilities, but it’s rare that you get promoted as just a regular part of the business during your annual review or whatever. There has to be a role to move into, and more often than not that just doesn’t exist unless someone leaves.

    3. Stuart Foote*

      Job switching is a really high friction activity that is time-consuming and stressful. People also have motivations beyond money. Two jobs ago, I was underpaid by quite a bit, but since my role was a bit of niche job and didn’t exactly match most of the ones I was applying for, it took me a while to get another job. I probably could have gotten one a bit faster had I tried harder, but I got along with my boss and liked my co-workers so it made it a bit more bearable.

      I recently completed a job search, and while I was ultimately successful, the process was extremely stressful and took a ton of time, with a lot of rejections. I felt like I needed to switch, but had the need been less urgent I probably wouldn’t have signed up for the stress.

      1. Ricotta*

        Agreed. I stayed about 3 years too long at a job that paid peanuts, because I needed the predictability and good will I’d built up there when my spouse had an ongoing health issue. I had absolutely no time or mental energy to learn a new role, and his constant neediness required a lot of flexibility that I’d only earned from being a long-term employee.

    4. Sloanicota*

      My opinion is it’s somewhat human nature to take people for granted. It’s hard to give “more” to someone even when they’re great because you feel like you already have them for what you’re already paying.

    5. Anon for This*

      Part of the problem is that many companies have budgets for recruitment, but they don’t have them for retention. So the new hire gets a signing bonus or higher salary, the current employees get a pizza party. Sigh.

    6. lost academic*

      I don’t find that accurate at all. Employers especially of that stripe behave that way because the financial and market incentives exist for them to do so. They are not going to significantly pay, in dollars, against profits, for those kinds of actions because their view and monetization of their workforce, even the technical segments of it, suggests that they will done fine that way. Even in markets where employees hold most of the cards, there are much bigger forces controlling overall wages, benefits and working environment.

      Ask, by all means, and leave, if you don’t get what you want or need, but don’t suggest that every person out there bears the responsibility for every thing an employer does that isn’t what they want. That’s not at all a systemic view of the workplace economy that can be supported by the data.

    7. Indolent Libertine*

      I guess you’re also on board with Gavin de Becker’s take on domestic abuse, then? The first time you’re a victim but if it happens again you’re a volunteer?

      There are So Many Reasons why employers can get away with this crap, and it definitely not the responsibility of those with the least power that it still is that way. It’s great that your approach happened to work for you, but one size does not fit all.

    8. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Those employers calculate, correctly or not, that it is financially better for them overall to lose some employees – usually only a few are prepared/able to move to new jobs – than to pay everyone more.

      Only if turnover is so high that it seriously affects the organisation are they likely to change and even then some may prefer to roll along doing poorly rather than substantially increase salary costs.

      Of course, good employers pay the market rate or higher, to attract and keep the most effective employees.

    9. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      As for why emplyees don’t move, it’s often because they can’t: we have so many posts from people who’ve submitted hundreds of unsuccessful applications, who’ve been job-hunting for years without finding anything better. In effect, they are being paid the market rate, because they are in a weak position.

      Some people would have to move long distances for a new job but may have commitments to elderly parents, or need to be near family who provide childcare, or don’t want to disrupt their kids’ schooling and exams.

      Also, finding a new home and moving is time-consuming and expensive, which may mean they are trapped in their location, if not in their job.

      Several commenters here slag off unions, but in my experience (Ok only in Europe) unions are far more effective in obtaining fair wages and annual increases than the average individual, especially a comparatively powerless individual who is not a rockstar with skills in high demand.

      1. Sharpie*

        I have the impression, rightly or wrongly, that in the US, a union is tied to a specific workplace rather than a corporation or industry, which means that they’re going to be less powerful than unions in Europe and more prone to receiving bullying tactics by management.

        I have this impression because posts here that talk about unions never seem to say ‘join a union’ but more ‘you and your colleagues in this specific workplace should unionise’. Which leads me to think that, overall, American unions are more numerous and far smaller and have much less persuasive power than unions in Europe.

        1. hohumdrum*

          Depends on the industry. In the Us the teamsters (truckers union) are an industry wide and very powerful group (just ask Jimmy Hoffa). A lot of the older unions are like that- United Autoworkers, Iron workers, etc.

          IME the smaller, workplace-tied unions are from industries that haven’t unionized yet, and you need to start small. So, for example, there are no food service unions yet. Workers who want one need to start by just unionizing their specific workplace, then maybe branching out to other franchises. You have to build from the ground up.

    10. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes, people do put up with things they probably shouldn’t, but like you said, if you have a good manager, it counts for a lot.
      Also, see upthread about how hard it is to hunt for and land a new job. I think many people would rather put up with being underpaid/not the best job for not having to look for another job!
      For what it’s worth, I’ve been a senior finance exec (also usually in charge of HR) for years in smaller companies and it is SO prevalent for the CEO to not see how much someone has progressed in their career and refuse to compensate them correctly. I can’t tell you how many huge arguments I’ve had over this very topic. It’s really sad, but I guess in general it’s true that if you want a big comp adjustment you need to get a new job.

    11. hohumdrum*

      I beg of folks who have only worked in big corporations to please shut up when it comes to “advice” for non-profit work, as it’s completely different and you are so far out of your depth it’s hilarious.

      Non-profits can treat employees badly because that’s how they were designed, and it saturates the entire field. In fact, if you get paid *too* well at a non-profit the public tends to get antsy about whether you’re operating ethically, that’s how much being underfunded is baked into the culture there. You simply can’t “demand” different pay scale, and quitting and going to another job won’t be an improvement because it’ll operate the same way. In lean times they’ll take your low paying job and then split it up between 3-5 unpaid (or minimally paid) interns. You have very little leverage.

      Does that mean it’s hopeless, or that it’s impossible to find better treatment at a sister org? Of course not. Non profit employees can and should and do advocate for better treatment, push for raises, and find places they feel valued. But this isn’t fking Bank of America with oodles of cash lying around, simply putting your foot down about bad treatment isn’t going to change the whole industry.

      I see absurd “advice” like this all the time from folks in the corporate side of things, and it amazes me how none of them realize they have absolutely no idea how things work in other sectors.

      1. OP Glowing Symphony*

        A Frickin-Men “I beg of folks who have only worked in big corporations to please shut up when it comes to “advice” for non-profit work, as it’s completely different and you are so far out of your depth it’s hilarious.”

    12. Underpaid*

      A lot of people are putting words in my mouth. But regardless, most of what all of you wrote only reinforces my opinion.

      Unsurprisingly, I see a lot of rebukes, but what I hear are mostly excuses for the way people behave. “Changing jobs is way too complicated and there are too many unknowns, so that’s why people settle.” Companies know this is how employees think and they take advantage of it.

      I’m fully aware that’s it’s not always easy to change jobs. My point is that it’s still necessary if you want things to change. And if you stay in a terrible job, for whatever reason that is perhaps very legitimate, at least recognize that you’re contributing to the way things are.

      For the record, I work at a non-profit now.

  10. Valerie Loves Me*

    Started a new job this week. It was a big move for me, both in terms of actually moving away and title. I’m a little behind the 8-ball in getting my ducks in a row, so thinking I should write up up a personal 90-day action plan for myself to help me keep track of things and tick some boxes, and make me feel productive as I download a ton of information. If y’all had any insights, considerations, tips, templates to help me get started, that would be amazing!

    1. ferrina*

      Week 1: Fill out paperwork, learn where the org chart and the bathroom is, collect information sources.
      Month 1: Read information sources, figure out how to do the basic tasks for your job. Ask many, many questions. Meet many, many people (I recommend having coffee with anyone who touches your role so you can get to know them and collaborate better)
      Month 2-3: Get better and faster at the common tasks. Learn and refine the uncommon tasks. Start feeling comfortable and like you don’t need to look up the information to everything (but you still look up a lot)
      Month 4-6: Settle in. Start thinking about process improvement (if applicable) and where you might build skills. Run into uncommon/seasonal needs and ask questions, but generally only referring to documentation on uncommon tasks.

      Congrats on your new role!

      1. NancyDrew*

        Woof. If you are anything beyond an entry-level employee, this timeline is WAY too slow. Week 1 for paperwork?! LOL.

    2. BikeWalkBarb*

      I’m thinking of the discussion on here not long ago about working with people for a long time without ever actually learning their names. You’ll meet a lot of people in the first wave. I’d say get an org chart or seating chart or both and start filling in notes to help you remember who people are.

      Take advantage of being new. As you introduce yourself ask people what they liked or relied on from the person in the role before you (assuming it’s not a new position), and what they would change given the opportunity. Don’t make any promises, just make notes and thank them for their insights. A lot of what they say won’t have much meaning at first but later on you’ll be able to put those notes together with what you’ve learned. You might attach these notes to whatever you’re using to organize your information about who people are: “Dave in accounting, wears mismatched socks on purpose, has a cat named Tiger and is really tired of getting invoices with no charge codes”.

      Ask your supervisor what their expectations are for you in 30-60-90 days. That will provide some reality check and you may decide your action plan is more like 6-9 months long. (And if you have a 90-day probationary period this is really critical.) Also ask now how they approach performance reviews, how often you’ll have 1/1 meetings, communication preferences for small questions vs bigger ones, how they approach giving and receiving feedback. Get your general communications on the same wavelength so you aren’t worrying about that alongside the content of the job.

      Good luck!

  11. ThatGirl*

    I’m an individual contributor who’s mid-career and I only ever want to BE an individual contributor. I’m a marketing creative. I don’t want to manage people; I want to write and create.

    So my question is: how do you advance your career without becoming a manager? Does your company have any sort of track for this?

    (This is something I’m working on with my manager, but I’m also curious how it plays out elsewhere.)

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      My current company only has a career track for management that leads toward managing people, and I have long argued for a Y-shaped career track that lets people either manage people or become subject matter experts.

    2. londonedit*

      Same here, and the way we tend to do it is to find things where you can take more responsibility. You might be at the top of that level already, but is there any scope for you to, say, run a campaign from start to finish, or be in charge of some research, or lead in some other way that doesn’t involve managing people?

      For example, I’m a desk editor in book publishing, and the sort of things I do to raise my work up from the standard sort of level are things like being in charge of paperback editions of existing titles from start to finish, and mining our backlist for things that can be reworked or reissued and then being in charge of those projects from start to finish. In my role I can’t ‘move up’ without either commissioning new books or managing people, neither of which I want to do, but there are ways I can build more responsibility and oversight into what I’m doing.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, I’m working on a proposal to become more of an SME in one area, and there are certainly ways for me to take on more responsibility, or do mentorship, etc. This company is very big on “tracks” and formalizing everything which has its good and bad points. One of my coworkers has become an SME in UI/UX writing but they didn’t have a formal way to make that her title so they just decided she was a “senior _____”.

    3. Dusty Rose*

      I used to manage folks. I did not love it. I don’t think I was bad at it, but the stress I felt was not helpful. Because I had worked for my organization for a long time, I was in an interesting position, in that they did want to keep me. In the end, the way my new role worked was that I was basically a senior project manager. I handled major projects for the organization and my department, provided support to the team through my institutional knowledge. No one reported directly to me, but I could provide guidance and support if needed… or serve as an extra pair of hands. The key was identifying the substance of the projects I worked on. They had to be significant, long-term, or very important. And when that was determined, the rest sort of fell into place.

    4. Angstrom*

      My company has a technical path. They realized that some people are happier and more productive in a lab and always will be. Those folks progress by doing more complex and challenging work, and sharing their findings and knowledge with others.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      This is actually something I’m working on right now with my manager! I am a second-tier manager whose direct reports are first-tier managers. The first-tier managers lead teams of individual contributors who are either junior-level or senior-level. A couple of those senior-level people are total rock stars whose impact on our work is head and shoulders above others. We can only give them raises so many times before they reach the top of the rating band for their position, though. Neither of them wants to be a people manager, and even if they did, there simply aren’t the positions on our team because restructuring for more, smaller teams wouldn’t be helpful to us. We’re working on creating a third tier of individual contributor. It’s going to be a Process: we need to create the job description and get it approved by department HR, central HR, and compensation. There has to be a significant difference between each of the three IC tiers: not just “they’ve been here longer” or “they’re really good at what they do.” So we’re looking for those differentiating factors. One thing we’re thinking about is giving the third tier ICs a role in project ownership and leadership. They won’t manage people, but they’ll manage processes and functions, and will delegate work out to the first and second tier ICs. This will take some of that stuff off the managers’ plates, which helps free us up (as we also have individual contributor work to do in addition to managing–the curse of the middle manager).

    6. KayDeeAye*

      I’m not saying this is a great idea, but: My non-profit sometimes awards the title of “senior,” e.g., instead of “program assistant” or “marketing coordinator,” the person will become “senior program assistant “or senior marketing coordinator.” It comes with some sort of raise but no actual change in responsibilities (at least not as far as I know). It’s sort of a promotion but it’s given in circumstances where there’s no higher position to move in to. It’s a way of saying “You’ve been doing a great job for some years, and we’d like to recognize that.”

      As I said, I’m not sure this is great, but it does allow someone to show a promotion on their resume, and people do get at least a small raise. For what it’s worth, there you go.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, we do that too – though generally we have to show some kind of specializing or SME to get the “senior” status. And then that person can move into the next pay band. But what comes after that? If I become a senior copywriter next year, and stay 4 more years, what after that? This is not something you can answer, necessarily. Just thinking about.

    7. Dust Bunny*

      Sometimes you don’t.

      I would have to get an MLIS and I’m past the point of wanting to go back to school. Any position I could get at this employer with the MLIS would also involve a lot of outreach-y things that don’t interest me. So it looks like the plan is to keep up with advancing technology and practices within my job level but not plan to advance beyond that unless I want to try to move to a different employer and career path.

    8. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I have no idea but I’ll be watching the comments. It seems like IC salaries tend to top out at a certain amount and I’m struggling with trying to find a higher paying role that doesn’t necessitate also being a manager.

    9. Parenthesis Guy*

      I worked at a company that had that track. The challenge IMO is trying to figure out where the real pain point that they want solved.

      For example, you may be good at skill A, B and C that are directly related to the job. This might be something that they really need. But if they don’t care much about those skills, and instead value skills X, Y and Z, then you’re not going to advance as quickly as you’d like.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That would work for some people – and I’m certainly willing to take on more project oversight – but I want to keep doing what I’m doing (writing) and we have a project management team.

    11. Sudsy Malone*

      I also am only interested in growing as an individual contributor. I’m in Development writing. I’m fortunate that my current workplace does have a little more space for that. Growth here beyond management looks like more ownership over projects, subject matter expertise, and ability to focus on certain areas of the work and be a strategic partner. For example, aside from now being a “senior” writer on the team, I also primarily work with the Development staff who solicit the highest-dollar gifts. So overall I would think about non-management creative advancement in terms of autonomy subject matter expertise, and the importance of the projects you’re working on. I would also say that in my experience this is easier to pull off in larger employers — smaller shops are just less likely to have the volume of work that warrants these kinds of roles.

    12. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      My company finally got with the times and has career paths for moving up, moving laterally, or just continuing to grow in the position you’re in. Maybe you can tell your company this way of thinking is the modern way to go, and companies that don’t embrace it are stuck in the past.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I mean, I can tell my manager that, but it’s a big company and the CEO doesn’t care :D

    13. Rosyglasses*

      When I was in a position to do so, I created a technical lead track where folks that were really good at their subject matter could track upwards with more responsibility, special projects, creating systems, usually training others without the management responsibility.

    14. Medium Sized Manager*

      We have an IC track for program owners – they are responsible for executing the work and managing the process/program documentation and continuous improvement, but the people managers are responsible for actual performance management.

      So, if Suzy is the program manager for painting teapots, she is responsible for ensuring that all documentation surrounding teapot painting is consistent and looking for ways to improve teapot painting’s efficiency, but she is not responsible for Johnny painting them wrong. She would flag that to Johnny’s manager for follow up.

    15. Person from the Resume*

      I think sometimes you do not. If your company doesn’t have a promotion opportunity for an IC because they don’t need someone with a more advanced skillset, then choosing not to manage may mean you’re at the top in that company.

      There is certain a difference in speed, efficiency, skill between a brand-new hire and a mid-level or senior person, but if all your extra years of experience are not adding value and the company only needs a mid-level and not more, then it doesn’t necessarily make sense for them to pay you more.

      I do not work in marketing or a creative field, though. And it seems hard to quantify.

    16. Zee*

      Since I switched my career focus to communications, I’ve never worked anywhere big enough to have multiple MarComm people. So the answer is, no, I wouldn’t be able to “advance” unless I switch organizations.

      But that is an option for you! Find a smaller nonprofit, company, or government agency that has a department of 1 where you can be a Director without managing anyone. (But be aware this will most likely mean a lower salary than you could get elsewhere.)

    17. STEM Admin*

      We’ve created new jobs. One was for a person who had to be “promoted” out of management because it turns out she’s horrible as a manager. The new role was actually lateral, but in a different job family that pays a bit more than the original job. Another one was for someone who’s not quite ready to manage people, but more than ready to manage processes.

  12. Tired of this*

    Has anyone else ever *wanted* your boss to do something bananas when you hand in your notice so that you have an excuse to quit? I am (hopefully) pretty close to getting a new job, but I am dreading my notice period. I really don’t want to burn a bridge with this employer, mostly because I have relationships with external partners that I want to maintain, and I don’t want my current employer to have a reason to speak poorly about me to them. But I know my boss with increase his low-key crappiness when I put in my notice, and I am desperately hoping he does something so wild that I can avoid two weeks of it.

    1. UnCivilServant*

      Stick to the high road, take solice in the fact that it is soon going to bea thing of the past, and don’t give anyone reason to question your professionalism.

      The momentary satisfaction won’t be wirth it, so hope it all goes uneventfully.

    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You can have a lot of fun fantasizing about the spectacular exit you won’t ever really make. I once had a friend who suggested I glue a large weird-colored dildo to the desk of my crappy boss on the way out. I did not, but the image gave me a really good laugh.

    3. Someone stole my croissant*

      I don’t know if you want to do this, but a one week notice is still acceptable. He’d probably be crappy about it, but you’d have to deal with him less.

    4. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I was so mad when I left one job that I wasn’t walked. The last 10 people to quit had been walked because the site VP was in a snit that people were leaving and took it personally. Then I guess right before I quit someone talked to him about the fact that we weren’t hiring nearly as fast as we were losing people and we needed every second that someone was willing to give them. So I had to work out my full 2 weeks.

      Fortunately I had told my new job I wasn’t willing to start for 6 weeks.

    5. Diatryma*

      I have definitely been glad of some behavior in the past– it’s really hard to argue that I should have stayed at a job, or it couldn’t be that bad, or surely they meant something else, when I had very clear examples of Nope. With a prop, in one case, and a backed-up personal email in another.

    6. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Better to spend the energy on a creative way to cope with his crappiness. For example, put some of his predictable crappy behaviors into a bingo card, or a prize-generating spinny wheel. Provide small prizes to go with it, I did this with a supervisor once who wasn’t that bad, but would say stupid things like “irregardless” and I wasn’t in a position to correct him. So, every time he said “irregardless” I won myself a fun size Snickers, or the shorter walk to the more expensive but closer coffee place, or those slippers on sale that went with nothing in my closet I just wanted them.

      Reward yourself, literally, for successfully putting up with his crap.

    7. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I am (hopefully) pretty close to getting a new job, but I am dreading my notice period.

      Wait until you have the job offer in hand before you put in that notice. Explain to the new employer that you can’t start right away because you have to give notice to your old company. Never tell your old boss where you’re going.

      Has anyone else ever *wanted* your boss to do something bananas when you hand in your notice so that you have an excuse to quit?

      For constructive termination? That’s more of “early departure, but you still fired me”, and it’s difficult to find circumstances so intolerable – from the sound of it you plan to have a new job lined up, so you aren’t planning to preserve a UI claim, you just want to shorten the window between “giving notice” and “they don’t expect to see you again”. There are legally-protected actions you can take (in the U.S.) that bosses will generally freak out at, effectively provoking them into kicking you out early. To be considerate, though, you should make sure your coworkers aren’t already trying to unionize – they wouldn’t appreciate you doing it overtly on your way out.

  13. A manager, but not your manager*

    I can’t say if you’re crazy to only take 1 day off (I was working from home for my wisdom teeth and I don’t remember how much time I took off). I can say that even if there are periods of time that are quiet, if you’re burning out, you’re burning out, and acknowledging that to yourself (and if it’s safe to do so, your boss), that’s important information for thinking through what you want to do about it.

    1. A manager, but not your manager*

      sorry that was supposed to be a reply. that’ll teach me to respond before I’m actually awake

  14. Baldrick*

    My former boss got a great opportunity internally, and my grandboss isn’t yet able to hire someone to replace her so we’re looking at a temporary acting position internally.

    My problem: I don’t really want to do the job, but there is only one other option. The other guy D has been an acting previously for a few months, as have I, and we’ve both done well. Yet we’re supposed to get some internal transfers from a different group (yes, there are a lot of changes and it’s because there’s a reorg within our department) and all three people can be a bit difficult. D can be blunt and opinionated, and I suspect that there could be a lot of friction between him and the transfers.

    I’m debating whether to take on the boss role temporarily, which would be in addition to my normal work, and would require me to deal with the difficult transfers. Or do I leave it to D, knowing that it would likely result in more workplace grumpiness and potentially conflict. On the positive, I know it won’t be my problem so I can do my work without worrying about the conflict. I am really tempted to walk away from the temporary boss role because I can’t see much positive to me personally, although I’m pretty sure based on the personalities involved that my being temporary boss would be beneficial to the group overall.

    I have a really good grandboss, and I’ll talk with him about it next week, but I’m curious if others here have opinions based on your own experiences. Thanks!

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I would take the acting position, it’s something to add to your resume and interviews if nothing else.

      1. Baldrick*

        I’m in a group full of specialist skills where none of us want to be managers, so unfortunately this wouldn’t help my resume or career progress. Same with D. We’re both only interested in the role because we had some acting managers in the past who didn’t understand what we did and it was frustrating.

    2. Hyaline*

      This might be an overly optimistic suggestion, but is it a situation where you and D could split the responsibility and he’d be cool with taking areas that, ahem, play to his strengths (ie, do not provide him much opportunity for bluntness and abrasiveness)? Totally get if this is impossible, but it might be worth floating past your grandboss if you can see a way to divide and conquer. Or, if redistributing your workload to take on the acting role could make it more appealing, it might be worth mentioning that–that you feel you’re well-suited to take it on but are reticent because of also dealing with XYZ. (My personal preference is honestly to avoid being managed by or dealing with the blowback of others being managed by problematic leadership, even if it means subjecting myself to a bit of a grind–but that’s my preference, not necessarily yours!)

      1. Baldrick*

        Splitting the role is a good thought, thank you for that! I’ve emailed my grandboss to ask for a meeting as soon as he has time after his trip, and have mentioned the expectations around managing the three new transfers as the topic.

        I agree that I really don’t like being managed by problematic leadership, but in this case I’m happy to be managed by D. The problem is that the three transfers are known for being less than optimal (we have a lot of flexibility in our workdays and some people end up underperforming). If they weren’t being added to our group then the choice would be easy, as D has been managing us for the past few months and I’d be happy to continue with that, or if he decided that he wasn’t interested then I would find it easy to manage the group. I’ll have to wait and see what grandboss says when he returns! He’s very aware of D’s personality so we can talk about it honestly.

    3. Loreli*

      Take the acting position. I was in a job where the manager quit and the CEO insisted on hiring from within. I was a contender for the job but didn’t want to have to manage my opinionated, arrogant, thought-they-were-better-than-they-were coworker. Coworker took the job. It was a nightmare. A friend pointed out that coworker’s ego would have been highly offended if I were the manager, and coworker would have quit. Friend said “it’s better to have an arse working for you than having to work for an arse”. I made a huge mistake not taking that position.

      1. Venus*

        Thanks! Good point – I’ll have some good thoughts when meeting with grandboss when he gets back!

  15. Prudence and Wakeen Snooter Theatre for the Performing Oats*

    Commiseration thread for those having a hard time at work?

    I am having a bit of a hard time at work. I work for a small office, so at a recent all staff meeting where everyone was thanked for their work but me… I just felt so demoralized. I am aware that I’m not doing well! I know that things need to improve! But to have “thanks to everyone but Prudence” basically be publicly announced was rough.

    So… Commiseration all around!

    1. Mothy*

      I will commiserate with you! I also have not been doing great at work lately, and it’s incredibly demoralizing. I feel like I’ve gotten into a cycle of knowing that there will be something wrong with my work, so sometimes it doesn’t feel worth it to try all that hard since it will be wrong regardless. It’s such a struggle to come into work every day.

    2. ... also depressed, sigh*

      Right there with you. Everyone on my team is currently at an off-site retreat except for me, because I was let go and am in my notice period. I understand why they decided not to include me (I mean, why pay for my travel when I won’t be here next month?) but it still stings to see the whole rest of the team chatting on Slack about what they’re up to.

      I’m sorry! May we both find better positions where we’re appreciated!

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My teams are getting … serious flack from our reviewers, and it’s done a number on morale. Are there things that need to be fixed – absolutely, 100%. But the management on the reviewer team is absolutely dead set on completely glossing over the fact that the reviewers have been scoring my teams at near-100% levels for literal years, when they should not have been, AND that their manager had no idea that was happening for literal years. So now the same thing my TMs have been doing for literal years and getting 95, 98, 100+% scores are now getting them 80% scores and I have been forbidden to explain to them why this change is happening. (That is – it’s being couched as a “recalibration” but their management is insisting on concealing the fact that the recalibration is happening because nobody caught that the reviewers were phoning it in and not actually providing accurate feedback/scores previously, they want it to sound like they just wanted to make a change to their process.)

      1. A Person*

        Assuming you are a manager, I have to ask – how strongly have you been “forbidden” to explain? Obviously you can’t have a big public announcement, but can you give some hints or suggestions that people might have picked up on themselves? Are the reviewers fully anonymous? Can you talk to people about this 1:1 in confidence and trust them?

        Some off the cuff examples, although you know much better than I do:
        “I don’t know why the scores are changing, but I’ve heard about some staff changes on the reviewer team.”
        “Management hasn’t shared anything about why the scores are changing, but of course we can see there are some differences. Let’s ensure (X, Y, Z) are improved going forward.”

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yeah, when my team members ask specific questions I’m answering them as best I can without straight up saying, “the reviewers have been phoning it in and have gotten busted for it, so now they’re cracking down hardcore.” I’ve taken these scores off my team’s performance metrics for a few months during this transition, and I’ve definitely been encouraging them to focus on taking in and applying the feedback to learn from it rather than getting hung up on the scores, but it’s still rough on them.

          1. A Person*

            Sounds like you’re doing what you can then. That’s just rough – it’s so hard when a team’s performance impacted your team and they just aren’t being honest about the impact.

    4. Too Long Til Retirement*

      Yes I am also having a hard time with my job. Things I love about my job: my coworkers, the work I do when I get to focus on what I do well, a small number of clients. Its also a fairly laid back place overall.

      Things I hate: my boss’ attitudes about work. He is anti-WFH for me, but has approved it for his daughter and one other person who had to move out of state for her husband. He also doesn’t like to give deadlines which is a struggle for me, because I thrive on them. Every time I ask about a deadline he doesn’t give one, or says “as soon as you can.” I get asked to do things beyond my expertise and I don’t have much support in the way of figuring them out, so then things don’t work as expected.

      I also get demoralized because coworkers in my same position seem to get more leeway in terms of hours and location of work than I do, because they do not work directly for the president like I do. It’s frustrating. I also could use a European level of vacation, but that won’t happen here for sure.

      All that being said, I still feel very stuck. In the realm of jobs in my area, this is one of the better ones.

    5. Needs Improvement*

      Oh, I’m right there with you! I feel like I’m invisible. I got my quarterly review last week and I’m barely at the “meets expectations” level. Things have been chaotic since we were acquired by another company about 8 months ago, so yeah, I’m messing up because I’m just trying to keep up. A coworker keeps trying to pass his work (which used to be mine, but the process has changed) on me. I refuse, he halfasses it, and then makes his own mistakes look like mine (often to clients!).
      I’m tired of swimming against the current! I used to really like my job, but in the last few months I’ve gone from confused, to frustrated, to pissed off. I’m by no means the only one who feels that way (my boss reached this point of pissed off months ago!), but that doesn’t make things any easier.

      1. Square Root of Minus One*

        I’m sorry. It’s so hard to not drop it all when your hard work isn’t valued. I’m feeling it today too :(

    6. BellaStella*

      Dear Prudence, I am so so sorry. This has happened to me a number of times in the past 18 months. One example: Team retreat last September. We’re presenting what we are working on. I talk about the funding I brought in with my manager. When I was done my manager’s boss whispers something to my manager, and then says aloud that the funding success was a team effort. IT WAS NOT. My manager and I did the work, not her favourite “missin g stai r”. I later found out that her favourite was also promoted for being a part of this work. He was not part of it. So yeah.

      While this sucks for you, all I can say is do not do what I did, which was to point out, in the retreat that, NO IT WAS NOT A TEAM EFFORT. Because between saying this and also not covering for her favourite any longer, this is what got me on her list of people who challenged her. So…. maybe if this might come up again, ask a colleague to pipe in with, “oh, and our colleague Prudence did such a good job on our llama accounting that the audits passed with flying colours! Thanks so much!” or something similar to get back up. Not sure this will help but is an idea.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      I am also having a super frustrating week. I keep getting told my feedback is valued. Then I give it and it’s either acknowledged as a good idea and then ignored, or told what boils down to “stop caring so much”. Then my boss’s boss asked me a question about an SOP that’s been that way for 4 years and never caused a problem, and isn’t even my call, and when I told him what the SOP actually was, in the same sentence he said “well don’t you think it should be A not B even though it shouldn’t make a difference?” and I was like “no because it doesn’t make a difference and we have more pressing issues”. And it turned into a whole thing. And I know objectively neither of us was right or wrong here, it’s a matter of preference. And he’s so the boss’s boss so in theory, his preference wins. But also this doesn’t affect him. It does affect me and my team and makes zero difference to them. And all the times I raised things that DO make a difference for this team he’s the one coming down with “you should learn to care less”. REALLY demoralizing. The thing he openly acknowledged makes no difference is worth getting on my case about. But all the things that would make HUGE efficiency improvements, I should just shut up and do the work.
      Oh but I’m appreciated, and I should know this and feel this because someone sometimes says the sentence “You’re appreciated.” Show don’t tell, ya know?

      1. Diatryma*

        “We’ve been told we should give more positive feedback, so, yeah, you’re all doing a good job. Anyway….”

        It was like that Loki meme.

    8. STEM Admin*

      It’s equally rough when you’re the one who put in all the hard work and someone who barely contributed gets the same level of kudos. Not sure where the balance is there, unfortunately.

    9. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I was invited to join a product testing team…then found out that product testing takes place off the clock. I also found out that calling in sick is considered an unexcused absence, even if you have PTO to cover it. (My supervisor changed about a month ago, and the prior supervisor never entered my sick days as unexcused.) I have six chronic illnesses, so I suspect I’m eventually going to get fired over unexcused absences.

    10. Square Root of Minus One*

      My gosh, that’s horrible from your boss. I’m really sorry.
      Yesterday I got my “bonus pay”. A new thing in my gvt job, part of the salary based on merit. Total budget for that thing is known, Fixed Sum per employee, to be distributed as management wishes. So Fixed Sum is a clear enough average to aim for.
      Despite running a whole section by myself for two years, better KPIs than most despite being the only one without coverage, taking on additional things I am the only one able to do, making myself sick with stress…
      Didn’t even get the average. 66% of it. Near the bottom of the barrel.
      Yeah, I know all about being mature and “how can I improve” but I’m really pissed today.

  16. chocolate muffins*

    Small joys at work thread!

    My lab had a paper accepted for publication which makes me particularly happy for the lab member who led that project. What good stuff did you all experience at work this week?

      1. BellaStella*

        Cheers to you and your team, please have a nice dinner on me :) What a mess you had to deal with and I am sorry.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Just finished a short “master class” that my manager arranged for her reports as professional development. It was super interesting and provided some really interesting food for thought!

    4. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      The head of my department looked at something I’d created in a few hours and went “Ohhhhhhh” in a really appreciative way. Like one of those involuntary “mmmm”s when you eat really good food.

    5. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I rotated to a site I don’t visit very often and one of the managers said “There’s one thing I really don’t like about you…” and while I panicked she grinned and finished “….that you don’t work full-time so we never see you.” Phew.

    6. Justin*

      The massive website/learner management system migration project AND the professional development course project I’m working on simultaneously are both getting very close to finishing successfully.

      And I edited a document today that was outdated to include a lot of changes I’d made and it helps me remember how much I’ve really done.

    7. BellaStella*

      My small joy this week is being able to work on something interesting which may turn into a funding proposal; making plans to not travel for work the rest of the year possibly as I am very tired and not 100% well; and having a meeting with the HR rep in August to discuss my work situation because the team I am on is a mess. So all minor good steps.

    8. Bitte Meddler*

      Just as my brain was starting to hurt from all the ad hoc work that had been thrown my way (stuff with steep learning curves), my boss confessed that she is horrible at formatting things and begged me to fix / cleanup / redo some documentation standardization templates she’d been working on.

      Yay!

      I couldn’t do it full time, but taking a break to play with fonts, colors, spacing, layout, wording, etc., has been enjoyable.

  17. Cherryblossom*

    I was here last week with an awkward situation, and now it’s escalated and I’ve gone from uncomfortable to genuinely wondering if this counts as harassment.

    Summary: My coworker came to work with no bra and a thin white t-shirt. When she realized it was only me and her in the office, she told me she was glad she “didn’t have to give a f***,” and didn’t put her bra on for the day. She’s, ahem, larger-chested, and it was very noticeable. I didn’t say anything in the moment, as was suggested by people in comments here.

    However, she’s decided that my silence means I’m totally cool with her taking her bra off in front of me! For the record, I am not! If she just went to the restroom, took her bra off, and then stashed it in her bag, I would be fine with it, provided she was wearing reasonably concealing clothing. But she’s undressing in front of me! I’ve gone from seeing her through a sheer shirt to just seeing her full stop.

    I am wildly uncomfortable, this has happened multiple times this week, and I don’t know how to bring this up, or if I should go over her head to our manager. How should I handle this?

    Context: We’re both queer women. She has seniority over me, but I am much older than her. We’re between managers at the moment, and the new one we’re set to report to is a middle-aged male.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would start with bringing it up to her! Just straightforward like “hey, would you mind changing in the restroom?” or something. It should not be a big deal.

      1. Ashley*

        Maybe even delete would you mind part to make it a little more direct and less of a request.

    2. Jamie Starr*

      I think the first thing is that you have to tell her to please stop doing that in front of you. If you’ve never explicitly said that it bothers you, then she probably assumes your fine with it. After that if she continues, definitely report it to HR.

      Also, does your workplace have a written sexual harassment policy? If so, it probably has protocols for reporting. Most places I’ve worked that have one, the policy mandates that managers report harassment. It’s part of their responsibility as a manager.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Say “Hey, I meant to say this before but felt awkward–can you please change in the restroom instead of our office? I’d appreciate it.”

    5. Elle*

      That is incredibly inappropriate and should be stopped ASAP. I’m so sorry it’s happening to you.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        I think because it is so extremely inappropriate, and clearly targeted sexual harassment, you should go directly to your manager now and explain what’s happening. This is absolutely reportable – this person has exposed herself to you on company property. Nobody in a normal office environment should have to tell a coworker to not strip in front of them, not even as a first step before escalating. No reasonable manager is going to ask if you have already taken the step of politely telling them to not expose themselves to you before escalating.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          She may be doing the under shirt wiggle to get out of it – the whole operation happens inside the shirt, so no exposure, but it’s very obvious what someone is doing.

          OP – if bare breasts have been involved at any point, straight to HR.

          If not, she’s just very obviously wiggling out of underwear in front of you, I think you can go to HR if you want, or you can say “please stop undressing in front of me” or “please change in the bathroom” or “please stop taking off your underwear in front of me” ONCE and then go to HR if it keeps happening.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      What the F who does this? Especially at work?

      I don’t actually care about seeing that much anatomy but you’re at work and barring some kind of medical emergency there is zero reason to expose that much in that context.

    7. Too Long Til Retirement*

      I’m fairly certain that non-consensual nudity qualifies as sexual harassment, so you have a case for it.

    8. Paint N Drip*

      I can imagine that you both being queer women might A) make her more comfortable around you B) make her assume that her comfort levels are your comfort levels and C) make you less likely to speak up because you may feel allegiance/sisterhood/etc. SO I can see where this is less clear/easy than if someone else were doing this. But I’d encourage you to ask that it stop, your comfort matters and a reasonable person won’t begrudge you for that – if she does push back, I also think this is a clear enough situation where you can bring it up the chain and the manager (even if they don’t understand the more complex dynamics between you two) will see it as an issue to be solved.

    9. Hyaline*

      This gal has some seriously messed up boundaries that she seems to be justifying just because you are both women. That’s really not OK. I have to say though, that your first step is probably directly addressing it with her. It sounds like you haven’t yet said anything about her bralessness or strip show making you uncomfortable. So speak up! However, if she makes it too uncomfortable to do this or ignores you, it’s absolutely worth escalating it to the manager.

    10. Head Sheep Counter*

      I don’t know if it’s teetered over to harassment or if its still clinging by its toes in uncomfortable familiarity… but I’m thinking she’s inappropriate.

      First – find a way to address it and redirect. “Please change in another room”.

      If that doesn’t do it or if she’s making it so uncomfortable that you can’t bring yourself to confront it… then I think its teetered all the way over… and you’ll need to go up a level or to HR.

      I’m assuming you aren’t in a business where nudity is ok.

    11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Unacceptable behaviour in any office. It”s sexual harassment, regardless of whether she is actually trying to flirt.

      Have you told her to stop doing this? ”
      If not, do so before she repeats the offence: “Please don’t take off your bra in front of me. Also don’t wear see-through tops here without a bra. It’s inappropriate and embarassing”

      If she ignores you, or argues, then warn her – once only -that you’ll go to HR if she does this again. Then do so.

    12. Somehow I Manage*

      Not that it totally matters, but I have a question because several comments are making an assumption. I’ve seen my wife (and a couple other females) take off a bra without so much as lifting their shirt. Is this what is happening, or are you getting a full flash? Again, I’m not sure it matters when you get to the heart of the matter, but the comments suggesting non-consensual nudity had me wondering, because maybe there are matters of degree in play.

      Regardless, though, I think you can and should say something immediately when it happens again. “I’m not comfortable with you doing that in front of me. Please don’t.” And then see what happens. If she pushes back, or if it continues even once more, report it.

      If I’m that new manager (I’m also middle-aged male) I wouldn’t love to have that conversation, but I’d want you to bring it up with me. Because you have a right to not be made uncomfortable at your workplace by anything. And this is a totally controllable situation in which there is an obvious and easy alternative to her removing undergarments in front of you.

      1. Jill Swinburne*

        I think it’s that she’s wearing a sheer top and once the bra is gone so is any visual barrier.

      2. Jamie Starr*

        The OP wrote, “But she’s undressing in front of me! I’ve gone from seeing her through a sheer shirt to just seeing her full stop.”

        I thought that meant that at some point bare breasts have been seen – in addition to the under the shirt take off. And then off course, the shirt is sheer. Maybe it was like she took most of the bra off under the shirt but then lifted it up to pull the bra out from the under the shirt and there was exposure. Or she was wearing a button up top? (Not even sure how de-bra-ing would work in that without taking the shirt at least partially off.

      3. RagingADHD*

        The OP’s statement indicated to me that the coworker is removing her top, because OP states that she *was* seeing the coworker through a sheer shirt, and *now* is seeing the coworker’s body.

      4. Cherryblossom*

        I’m a little late here, but to clarify: last week she came in wearing sheer top and no bra, once. This past week, she’s worn a variety of thicker tops (t-shirts, sweaters, etc), but has taken her bra off multiple days, at her desk right next to me.

        I haven’t been intentionally flashed, but she’s careless while doing the “undershirt wiggle”, so I have somewhat seen…well, more than I’d like to see.

    13. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      This is so far off base. Definitely speak up.

      I first thought you meant she was doing a flashdance remove the bra through the sleeves kind of thing which would be awkward and weird enough, but full on changing in the office? No.

      I feel awkward when I discreetly change out of my walk to work shoes and socks to my work shoes and socks at my desk.

    14. Nancy Drew*

      I hate to bring this up, but since she’s escalated this behavior, it sounds like she’s an exhibitionist and enjoys this, which adds an extra layer of inappropriateness. When you first wrote about this, I assumed she was kind of oblivious, but now? Nah, she gets off on doing this. I’m so sorry but feel free to call her out, she’s creepy.

    15. fhqwhgads*

      “I’d prefer if you didn’t change your clothes in here. Thanks!”
      If she gets huffy she’s the one being weird.

    16. Hyaline*

      One more thing–I would firm up your personal boundaries on this one before initiating the conversation. I remember in the previous post you felt fine with your coworker going braless, in theory, but her choice of thin shirt left nothing to the imagination. If you just say “please don’t remove your bra in front of me” are you ok with continued peep shows through her thin t-shirts? Or is your boundary back at “I don’t want to see your bra come off OR your boobs on full display”? It’s ok to have a boundary that is “While at work, I don’t see parts of my coworkers’ bodies that are typically covered by swimsuits.” But I do think it should be clearly articulated in one fell swoop, otherwise she’s going to continue with the wardrobe choices thinking that as long as she ditches the bra in the restroom you’re coolio with it.

      Like, she starts to take off the bra you can raise the issue with, “Actually, Susan–I’ve been meaning to tell you, and this is uncomfortable for me, but I really do not feel ok with you removing your bra in front of me. In fact, I’m not comfortable with seeing that much of a coworker, at all. I like and respect you but want to keep some professional boundaries in the office when it comes to clothing.”

      FWIW I totally get that this is very uncomfortable to raise but I do kinda feel it’s a kindness to start with a request coming from you instead of escalating it–unless she has done things that make you feel you’re not really able to do so.

    17. The Unionizer Bunny*

      Original post:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2024/07/open-thread-july-12-2024.html#comment-4784281

      I’m sorry, I took several days checking for the perspective of people who had dealt with similar situations in the past (by which time comments were closed), and then filed my notes under “counter-predatory behavior” instead of AAM – where it didn’t remind me to bring it up in last week’s open thread.

      since it’s just the two of us, she said “Oh good, then I don’t have to give a f***.”

      This isn’t because you’re both women, it’s because nobody else is there. She has you alone, so she can push your boundaries in ways that would be called out if other people were present. The power/authority element (“I’m lower than her on the chain”) is another red flag. Even in the absence of any potential for a sexual situation (and your comment about both of you being queer women makes me think this is not inapplicable), she can make you feel “nervous, and afraid” (per Captain Awkward, a screenwriter who helps people find the right words for difficult conversations) by showing her willingness to violate the “social contract” (Fugitivus, 2009) and effectively intimidate you into accepting/normalizing what she’s doing:

      when somebody you knew, somebody you trusted, does something so frighteningly outside the boundaries of normal and expected behavior, that person becomes a stranger who is capable of anything. And, more importantly, a stranger who has already proven that they are willing to do anything. Guy 1 had no reason to believe that if he fought back, Guy 2 wouldn’t pull a gun, or a knife, or do something else as completely unforeseen, evil, and horrifying

      Has it escalated to sexual topics of conversation, or (any degree of) uninvited physical contact, yet? There is now a pattern of escalation, so you should be ready for what may come next:
      https://www.dailydot.com/irl/boundary-probing-men-predatory-dating-behavior/
      https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/03/gay-mens-sexism-and-womens-bodies/
      https://polyskeptic.com/2013/06/15/women-can-be-creepy-and-invasive-too/

    18. HBJ*

      I said this last week, and I’ll say it again. How is this not sexual harassment?! Even absent the whole changing in front of you thing. Even if it was just the thin shirt. She is treating you differently and dressing differently in front of you than she would with a man. How is that not sexual harassment? I would report it as such. “She has said she dresses differently in front of me and shows more of her body than she would otherwise because I’m a woman.”

    19. LMS manager for another firm*

      So sorry to hear this. But it is sexual harassment. Document all instances and go to HR. You don’t have to ask an abuser to stop harassing you, you just need to report it. (Now that I think about it, it might be a state-by-state thing – I used to live in NY and the laws are more stringent than in other states.)

  18. Tradd*

    Rant: I’m a customs broker/do international transportation. I’m in the middle of the US. I deal with people all over the world and pay attention to time differences. So many people don’t! For example, I get people in India screaming about why I’m not answering emails they send over the weekend. I’m not required to pay attention to emails outside of office hours. I only look at it if I’m doing something outside of office hours.

    People in the US don’t pay attention to time differences either. People on the east coast bellyache they can’t get me until they’ve been in the office an hour.

    Overseas shipping agents want my WhatsApp info. They flip when I tell them I don’t have a company issued phone and that I don’t provide my personal number for work information. All must be on email to have an official trail.

    1. Mephyle*

      Could you include in your signature a timanddate-dot-com link to the current time such that when they open it, it will give the current time in all the major cities, or else the current time in the zone of the user who has opened it. I know you can do the former, not sure about the latter.

      Not that they’ll pay attention to it…

      1. Antilles*

        A similar alternative might be to put your time zone/working hours in your signature beneath the address.
        123 Main Street, City, State
        Available M-F, 9 am to 5 pm, US-Eastern Time

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          I would start every email with your timezone AND include it in your signature
          Also put a note that you reply to emails during working hours in your timezone.

          People are so inconsiderate. I’m sorry!

    2. Rex Libris*

      I once worked security for an industrial facility in the U.S. that did business internationally. After 9pm, the phones automatically switched over to the guard booth in case of emergency calls or whatever. Two to three times a week I’d get a call in the middle of the night from the same person in Japan yelling about complicated problems with some esoteric business arrangement. I never was able to convince them that they really needed to call during U.S. business hours, not theirs.

    3. Tio*

      I once got a call from one of our OWN SALES REPS at 11pm to try and sort out an AMS issue for a super hot delivery. This person was in the same city but still thought it was ok. And then the AMS issue was they hadn’t filed their HBL in AMS and the person who did it wouldn’t be in until the mornign, so thanks for waking me up for nothing…

      The company I’m at is much better at trying to be conscientious of time zones but I think that’s in part because the kind of shouting about “why aren’t you answering!” that a lot of FF companies just ignore/brush off (including me when I was in it) is just that… ignored with no real consequences.

      Although I did snap once and send a particular guy in India a time zone calculator link once… My boss then thought it was funny, so I guess I won

      1. Tradd*

        I do a lot of clearances for truck shipments from Canada. Truckers like to cross at night. I tell my customers that we’re not a border brokers running a 2nd or 3rd shift and I don’t do weekend stuff. If they want to clear that night, I need all the docs (including PAPS and border crossing) by 2pm. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told the trucker that myself (customer usually sets trucking up themselves). I then come into the office on Monday to many emails from said trucker pleading for a response. No sympathy. They were warned and chose not to take me seriously.

    4. Yes, people are idiots*

      Yeah, people don’t get time zones. My worst was when someone from India called me at home at 5am on a Monday. I’m west coast, main office is East Coast. So, 8am is not unreasonable. Obviously I didn’t pick up the work phone at 5 am. Worse, idiot didn’t leave a voice mail. Just kept dialling when voice mail came on. For 30 minutes.

    5. The Unionizer Bunny*

      WhatsApp? Isn’t that the “self-deleting messages” app? Yeah, something tells me “an official trail” is exactly why they don’t want to use E-mail. Could be smugglers using the time zone as an excuse, or just unreliable shippers wanting to get away with late packages and later swear you got their promises wrong. Hold them to the contract. You have good reasons to not budge on it, and if you want to push back, point out they’re providing criminals with cover by normalizing the things that criminals do as part of their crimes.

      1. Baldrick*

        Totally the wrong app. WhatsApp is text messages over internet. I have family in Europe and we ‘text’ for free using WhatsApp whereas regular SMS texting has a high cost when you go outside the U.S. It’s also more secure than regular texting, though that doesn’t matter to me.

      2. Tradd*

        The folks who want my WhatsApp are freight forwarders overseas – my counterparts. In many parts of the world, it’s what you use to contact everyone.

          1. The Unionizer Bunny*

            It was the first crime that came to mind for “Who flips out at being told you can’t use WhatsApp because you need an audit trail?”

            I don’t think smugglers are all the stereotypical “smuggling is my full-time job, I sneak across the border” kind, though. Some are legitimate shipping agents who, on occasion, can be bribed to help a package get through customs. It’s easier to do that if all their paperwork doesn’t leave a trail, than if the illicit packages are singled out for unusually surreptitious handling. Also, normalizing its use among legitimate shipping agents helps to provide cover for the people more conscious of their future involvement.

            After verifying that WhatsApp is popular for smugglers I realized it could be just ordinary contract flexing, profiting off the margins by claiming they’d ship it faster and then saying later “you can’t prove we promised that, WE remember saying we’d ship it slower to save on costs and you saying you were okay with that”.

      4. GythaOgden*

        WhatsApp only deletes messages if you explicitly tell it to. You’re thinking of SnapChat.

        Also let’s assume Tradd has more experience spotting smugglers than we might do. She’s not that naive.

      5. We’re Six*

        I think you’re mixing up WhatsApp with either SnapChat or TigerText lol. And a lot of hospitals now use a form of TigerText as a way for clinical staff to share information while maintaining patient privacy (because the message self-delete).

    6. Sharon*

      Maybe think of this as a “them” problem? I don’t mind if people send me emails in the middle of the night, because I don’t have my email on my personal phone and I’m not getting it or looking at it until the next time I’m at work. Every time you answer a non-urgent email after hours you are training people that they get results that way. If you do check your email after hours, consider putting the responses on a delay so they will send at the beginning of your normal work hours.

      And of course if there’s truly a need for an emergency contact, make sure everybody knows that process. But 9 times out of 10 they will decide it’s not really an emergency if they need to call the triage person first.

      1. Tradd*

        It is a them problem, but I have to spend so much time on stupid emails dealing with “why didn’t you answer me?” Hell, they often go to the company owners complaining about me and then I have to go through the whole thing of digging out the emails they sent over the weekend and defending myself, showing that the emails the overseas agent were sent on Saturday, so of course I didn’t answer until Monday. It stupid.

        1. Astor*

          Would setting an auto-reply on your email be useful? You can set it up either on weekends or include evenings too? Then people contacting you outside of office hours will get an immediate reply with information about your working hours and a link to information about your timezone.

          I don’t think that will solve anything for the entitled folks. But it could give help those folks who just forget you only work designated hours, and some of the entitled folks will at least change to complaining about your hours instead of about your responsiveness. (So it’s not a good idea if your boss is likely to make you start working more hours.)

  19. ... also depressed, sigh*

    Like “depressed” above, I have a similar question… how do you bounce back from getting fired/let go? I started a new job two years ago that should have been perfect for me; it played to my strengths, I was joining a team that was incredibly excited to have me on board, and I was initially able to contribute to some exciting projects. But I never seemed to be able to please my managers, and after months of their increasing disappointment/irritation, they let me go.

    I’ve excelled in past jobs, so this is a totally new experience for me, and even though intellectually I tell myself “plenty of excellent people get let go for all sorts of reasons!” it’s hard, as a recovering perfectionist and people-pleaser, to really believe that emotionally. The little Gollum that lurks in my brain is *convinced* this is a damning indictment of me as a person and that it means I’m terrible. Gollum’s not right…. right?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      That sounds like a them problem rather than a you problem. Would it track if their expectations were either unrealistic, or they were unable to convey them clearly enough for anyone to follow them?

      1. SwimmingOneDay*

        I want to co-sign this! If you’ve excelled at past jobs, it definitely indicates that management may have been unable to properly provide you the feedback and support necessary to succeed. That’s a them thing.

        As a former people pleaser myself, I also have to force myself to remember that just because someone criticizes me or my work, that doesn’t automatically make the criticism true. I have the best insight into my own work and thought process, and I have to remember not to take my previous managers’ negative feedback as True but to look at what may have actually been things I could have worked on versus what was poorly provided on their end.

        Gollum is not right!!

    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      “I’ve excelled in past jobs” is the mantra to repeat to yourself any time your jerkbrain starts up. Facts, facts, facts to counter the little emotional jabs.

      Also, feel free to Google “people who got fired and went on to greatness” to read a ton of listicles. Thomas Edison, Oprah Winfrey, Truman Capote, Julia Child, Walt Disney, Steve Jobs famously got fired *from* Apple, which he founded FFS. I guess all of those people are terrible failures, right? You’ve never heard of them.

    3. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      I’m so sorry. Getting let go from a job sucks in a unique way, but it’s not a unique experience. We’ve all been there. Sometimes the fit is just not right, and that’s definitely not an indictment of you as a person. Some companies just can’t get out of their own way. We see on this site over and over again cases of crappy, dysfunctional managers who get in positions of authority and then use it in petty or even harmful ways. You will bounce back from this and continue to excel in the future. Hugs.

    4. Ms. Frizzle Lost Her Sizzle*

      I’m in the same boat, paddling over to cheer you on!
      Gollum is wrong.

      I got fired as a teacher because another teacher went on an all-out 2 year campaign to get me fired. I was excellent at my job, beloved by students, supported by my supervisor, and even liked by the high-maintenance parents. I was fired for not being friendly to my bully.

      It took me over a month to be even remotely functional, but I found a great job to apply to and that helped. (I even made it to the finalist stage.) For me, meeting new people and being treated like a smart and capable professional helped too. Healing emotionally will take time, and will have ups and downs. Keep reminding yourself of what you know intellectually, and keep working to find the people who will treat you like the skilled professional you are.

    5. pally*

      Please be kind to yourself.
      It feels demoralizing. Given what you wrote, it SHOULD be demoralizing for those managers -not you. If they are irritated or disappointed, they had avenues to pursue to change things: coaching, training, redefining the job duties, closer supervision of your work, mentoring, etc.

      Why didn’t they pursue these??? See, it’s on them- not you.

      My sister had an experience like this. She was hired to replace an admin who had held the job for like 3 decades. She is a fast learner, smart, a problem-solver, resourceful, etc. everything this person was. But, after 6 months she was laid off. “Not a good fit”, they said.

      She sensed that her boss was a lousy communicator. She tried asking in different ways to understand his wants, asked for feedback, sought advice from practically everyone who worked there, had conversations with the boss about wanting to make sure she understood how he wanted things done, worked a lot of extra hours making sure to meet his expectations.

      Nothing worked. Nobody was able to convey this guy’s expectations -including the boss himself. These were people who’d worked with this boss for decades. It was almost surreal. They’d all say she was doing fine. And then boom!- we’re letting you go.

      I suspect they never found anyone who could replace the person whom she replaced.

      Happy ending: after this, she signed up for a temp agency. This resulted in a job that lasted over 20 years. One she very much liked. Good pay and benefits. Good co-workers too.

  20. Mermaid*

    Hey folks – I have left an abusive relationship that quiet unfortunately has resulted in stalking, revenge porn, doxing etc. I’m safe and working with authorities. I’m also in the middle of job searching and I’m concerned that a background check is going to show all of this. Do I need to forewarn anyone? Do I just let it go? I’ve been advised by legal that this shouldn’t affect me but I do somewhat worry.

    1. Baldrick*

      You might say something very brief about someone harassing you, and that it shouldn’t affect a background check but if there are any odd results then you’re open to talking about that and providing documentation as needed.

    2. Alex*

      A background check is not going to surface being a victim of a crime, it just surfaces perpetrating one.

    3. Baldrick*

      Note that I don’t have any expertise with background checks for hiring. I have had them done when I am hired.

      You might tell them that there is a problematic person in your history, and that it shouldn’t affect a background check but if they notice any odd results then you’re open to talking about it and can provided supporting documentation if helpful.

    4. Tio*

      Since it shouldn’t show up in your background check, I would probably hold off mentioning it until you started somewhere, but I would make it a point to tell either your boss or HR on day one that you’ve had issues with a stalker and give them his info and advise he shouldn’t be let on the premises or given any information.

    5. heckofabecca*

      Congratulations on leaving, best of luck navigating the stalking etc, and many many best wishes for the next phase of your life!!!

      I don’t know details about what comes from a hiring background check, but I am glad to hear that legal says it shouldn’t affect you. Still, I absolutely get the concern. All the best.

    6. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      I went through a similar situation but my name was withheld from all the legal proceedings. I don’t think it would come up through “official” background check methods. If you’re worried about employers googling you and finding things, whether or not I would say anything would depend on what comes up in a normal google search and if a reasonable person would connect it to me and what it is.

      I wish you all the best in your situation. It is more common than I’d ever have thought until I went through it and opened up about it, and heard a lot of stories. Lean on your support system. **Hugs**

    7. Anon for This*

      If the background check includes review of social media, I’d recommend you give them the suggestion others have had about mentioning the situation and being happy to talk about any oddness. If the first thing that comes up is the revenge porn it could give become an issue.

    8. Somehow I Manage*

      I’ve not done a ton of background checks, but unless you were charged with something, it is very unlikely that something will show up. You might inquire about the depth of the background check, though. If there’s something that was posted online and they’re looking that far, it might be worth a mention.

      I’ll strongly agree with the comment about flagging it when you’re hired, though. You’re doing that for your own safety and your employer will likely want to know so they can help in protecting you.

    9. LockStuffDown*

      I don’t think it’s likely to show up on an actual background check, but I know several folks who’ve lost job opportunities because someone else trashed their comment section on public sites that someone on the hiring committee saw (likely through Google searching the candidate, although in one case the candidate provided the site as a writing sample expecting to be evaluated on their writing, not because other folks lied about them in the associated comment threads. Given this I would:

      1. Lock down as many public sites you’ve ever contributed to in any way (social media, review sites, writing channels, etc – some will let you do this, some won’t)

      2. Change to using an alias on as many public sites as possible (again, some will allow this and some won’t)

      3. If you’re comfortable with it, s,ay something vague along the lines of what others are suggesting, or be prepared to sometimes perhaps lose some opportunities because of your former partner’s behavior (it’s also possible a warning, no matter how carefully worded, will also scare some folks off – it may genuinely be lose-lose)

      Sorry this is happening, and good luck!

  21. What's in a name?*

    I’m getting laid off next week. My employer’s contract with the cilent is ending, and a new company is coming in. This isn’t the first time it’s happened in this role, but this time I’m out of a job, and so I’m looking in earnest now for something new. I had been casually searching off and on, but it’s now time to look intensely.

    Since starting at this job, I’ve figured out I’m trans, though I haven’t felt comfortable to come out publicly whether at work or in my private life. I definitely don’t want this status quo to continue into my new position.

    As I’ve been looking, I’ve seen most applications having a spot for preferred name (which I am immensely thankful for), but I’m not sure whether I should put that there or if I should bring it up at some other point in the process, especially since anyone I’d give as a reference would know me only by my (mostly)deadname. Any thoughts or advice would be very welcome.

    1. ... also depressed, sigh*

      No advice, but I just wanted to say congrats on such a big wonderful step of self-discovery! <3 <3 <3

    2. Hlao-roo*

      For references, I think there are two main approaches:

      (1) Reach out to your references and say “hey, I go by [name] now, so when/if you’re contacted to be a reference expect people to ask for [name].” Then put your new name on your resume/applications/etc.

      (2) When you give your references to the company, add a little note that says “knows me as [deadname].” It might look something like this:

      John Smith, manager from ACME Corp. (knows me as [deadname])
      [email address]
      [phone number]

      1. Paint N Drip*

        Congrats OP!
        I agree with #2 here, unless you’re extraordinarily close to your references then #1 is a very professional move. I’d also note that you should include a little (known as [deadname]) addition within any background check info (if they do that off the resume, I’d prepare a second copy with that addition to provide them further along in the hiring process)

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          How about a “did business as “? dba’s are a common and well-recognized corporate structure, it implies “this was a company name” aka a branding issue instead of a personal name.

      2. Frieda*

        This sounds like ideal wording – I’ve had this experience (got an email asking about the person using their preferred name, I knew the person as their former name) and I just emailed them to clarify before responding to the request. But having a heads up would have been good too.

  22. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I need advice on training/developing Gen Z staff. I’m saying Gen Z staff because the struggles I’m having seem to be both widespread within and specific to that age group, at least based on the new staff at my company.

    I’m an auditor. I am not a manager, but I am involved in supervising, training, reviewing, etc. I’m a super-peer to these new staff. I have a lot of experience, I’m one of the people who can just look at it and know what went wrong or whatever.

    As regards to these staff members, they’re smart. 19-25ish. They have college degrees, many of them are working on CPA licenses. The interns are still in college of course, so I have correspondingly lower expectations for them because I know they don’t have the classes. They have the technical knowledge to at least get started on tasks, though they often don’t have the experience to finish without help. However, they don’t seem to know how to get started, or how to figure it out. Its deer in headlights.

    Example: I tell them to do a workpaper, they have last year’s workpaper, they have all the information/documentation, and they are struggling HARD to apply what they know and figure it out if they haven’t seen that exact thing before. Or even get part of it done. This is the case even if they’ve done that same workpaper on multiple audits. I do see progress as they learn specific variations, but I don’t see the understanding that allows them to apply the concepts more broadly. Yes, I’m available to answer questions – but the questions they’re asking indicates that they’re just not getting it. Over time their questions should be changing from “how do I do this” to “why are we doing this” to “but what happens if x”, and I am not seeing that progression at all.

    If they need to do something in excel and don’t know how, I don’t see them googling to figure it out, or poking around in the menus, or anything like that. They either do it in the only way they know (which is usually the most inefficient way possible) or they ask.

    Now, sometimes I do not expect them to be able to figure something out. They’re new, they’re learning, this is normal. But there’s a lot that they should be able to at least get part of, and they’re just not.

    How do I help them? The ability to figure it out is a skill, though it’s one that’s hard to define. And they don’t have it.

    1. Cherryblossom*

      Part of the difficulty with problem-solving with Gen Z is that, especially for tech related things, they’ve never had to “figure things out”. They grew up with the most user-friendly version of technology where oftentimes, the solutions to problems was “sit and wait until the servers are fixed”. Add in that a good chunk of their education was disrupted by a pandemic, and led by burnt-out teachers/professors, and you have a generation that is bright and intelligent, but paralyzed when something goes wrong.

      The only real advice you can give them is to keep nudging them to learn to figure things out on their own. Give them some steps to go through before they come to you for help (Google, comparison to past work, etc.). It might take them a bit longer to get there, but the ones who are willing to learn will get there eventually.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        “what have you tried so far” is annoying to get, but might be effective. And I can probably do a bit better with the initial “how to get started” base lesson. I’ve got 2 newbies I’ll have at audits for the first time soon, will try that with them.

      2. LCH*

        agree with this. and also here to say, it isn’t all of them! i have a student worker who just graduated (so she’s 21-ish) and she knows how to figure stuff out. or she will bring things to my attention that i might not have asked her for, but once she gets into a project, realizes it is something i might want. i really appreciate it.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Yep! These people are capable, once they figure it out its going to be amazing. There is no question there. The pieces I am seeing where they have figured something out really is awesome. I just want them to be awesome across the board.

    2. Alex*

      Have you given them clear expectations about the fact that they should be doing some “figuring out” themselves? Like, “If you don’t know how to do something in excel, make sure to google it and try to figure it out first before asking me. Figuring out stuff like that is a skill that you are expected to develop.”

      However, I have been working with a number of Gen Z people and it hasn’t been my experience at all that they don’t know how to figure stuff out, so maybe your company needs to make changes to their hiring practices to try and improve the quality of your candidates. The Gen Zers I work with have impressed me with their knowledge and ability to learn quickly, in fact!

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I can be more explicit about it, and I will give that a try.

        I’ve got no input/control over hiring, and we’re a small company so have a harder time in general. But these people are not dummies.

      2. Jay (no, the other one)*

        My daughter is 24 and she taught me to use YouTube and Google to answer tech questions. She’s very invested in figuring things out herself, especially at work.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Please ask her what words to use to install that ability in her peers please. lol.

    3. Rex Libris*

      No advice, just commiseration. I’ve noticed with some younger people I’ve hired recently it seems that there is almost no ability to extrapolate and apply previous knowledge to new areas.

      If I show them a task, they can perform the task, but really struggle to figure out how to apply the knowledge more broadly. If they’ve been doing task Y, and X is always wrong, for example, it never occurs to them when they start related task Z that X may still be something to watch for, unless it’s specifically pointed out.

      I’ve often wondered if it’s a result of degree programs becoming more career specific, with fewer general humanities courses. I think those are where I personally learned how to think critically and apply concepts broadly.

      1. Tradd*

        I’ve seen this with multiple younger individuals used to Gmail/Google Docs from school, yet they’re unable to transfer that knowledge to Outlook, Word, and Excel. They don’t even try. They just sit there and wring their hands.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I wish I knew the cause, but yes, they can’t extrapolate and apply previous knowledge. (In general, they’re individuals, not a monolith.)

        I’m going to try the “what have you tried” approach and then guide them through the very basic steps. It’ll be a lot of handholding at first, but I’m hoping it’ll help.

      3. Industry Behemoth*

        This was also true in the late 80’s, when I was in IT. Though that was also early in the Technology Age.

        Even then, someone lamented about computer users “who can’t generalize.” A user calls the help desk because they can’t print a word processing document, and you point out the printer wasn’t online. Then two days later the user can’t print a spreadsheet, and they call again without having checked the printer’s online status.

      4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        In the UK, we specialise in school at age 16 and our uni degrees are normally totally specialised e.g. when I was accepted to do a maths BSc, I had only maths modules to choose from throughout my 3 years there. I would probably have not been allowed to add even a physics course, let alone a humanities one, unless I was able to negotiate changing my degree.

        This was back in the 1970s and afaik the same v early specialisation remains. However, I’ve not found UK students or older employees to be any worse than others at problem-solving new situations.

        1. GythaOgden*

          I agree — inasmuch I’m the exact opposite, someone who is better at theory than practice and well into my 40s. Recently, having moved up to a crunchier job than I’ve had before, I’ve felt like the girl who was told to spin straw into gold a few times and shot off a confused email before actually sitting down and trying to figure it out.

    4. Maestra*

      For the newest of them, a step-by-step check list for the first few times they do the task might be helpful. If they are actually proactive about asking, you might make a FAQ document, too.

      I’ve been a high school teacher for awhile (so I’ve taught students in your entire age range) and I’ve observed that if they don’t know how to do something, they just do not do it even if they could look up how to do it. “I didn’t know how to put accents on the letters!” “Oh, I couldn’t figure out how to upload it.” I don’t even get emails from them anymore apologizing for not knowing how to do it, they just don’t. And because we all got so soft during covid, they’ve gotten multiple chances and lots of coaching.

      These students are also bad at computers which explains the excel problems. They are better at phones, but what they are actually good at is social media/apps. They are “digital natives” who do not understand how to actually use technology. I once told a student giving a presentation to press F5 to start her powerpoint and she pressed the keys for the letter F and the number 5.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Yes to the lack of real tech understanding. It’s as basic as mouse skills. I wish I could assign a week of just playing the old style windows cards games, because those were designed to teach people how to use a mouse. However, if I need a video I’m 100% calling a gen Zer.

        Part of why it’s frustrating to me is these people really are smart. They have so much potential, they just have to figure this piece out and then the world really is at their finger tips.

      2. Hyaline*

        Absolutely co-signed on the digital natives not having basic computer skills. Honestly we probably need to go back to teaching computing like we did back in the Stone Age (aka my youth in the 90s)

        1. Cj*

          I think that is very true, which is why it always seems so strange to me that younger people think that older people don’t know or can’t learn new technology.

          I was in the workforce when PC’s first became a thing, and everything was DOS. you had to know a lot or about how it actually worked, because you couldn’t just click on an icon.

    5. Lurker*

      I have noticed this too. I’m in nonprofit finance and it felt very much like my new hire was just following the steps to complete the data entries, but never really stopping to think about if something looked different or was off. They would just make the entry. I had multiple conversations about them about critical thinking, how they should ask whether something made sense and if not, what might be the reason, and yet nothing changed. They most recently messed up some reports by using the wrong dates. Like – didn’t then look back at the previous reports to see how they were done? But even more, this was about the 5 or 6 time running the reports. Sigh They recently resigned and I have to say I’m relieved to not have to deal with it.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Yep, that’s exactly what I’m dealing with, just on the audit side. Like, NO, you can’t mark it as passed the test if you aren’t actually sure it passed the test.

        There’s one guy that I worked with last year and I eventually told the partner that I just couldn’t work with him. He’s a great guy, I like him, I don’t worry about inappropriate behavior with clients, but he does not get it and does not ask questions. He might do a lot better in a AP clerk role or similar, he seems to do better when it’s a defined step by step process.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          Socratic method?

          It sounds like they need some “cooperative competition”. Measurable deliverables. If they can’t do it, the requirement is to document why they couldn’t. Or just ask them to document their steps regardless. Then exchange documents with their assigned partners. Stage two is to look at the documents someone else produced, identify the points at which they failed, and fill out a Mad Libs form with “this person didn’t look up the technique found here“. Put a bounty on being able to spot what other people did poorly. That way, they’re not being asked to admit fault in themselves – they’re being invited to spot flaws in others. If they show they can perform the work that someone else couldn’t, they post those documents up on a bulletin board visible to everyone, and you award points for it. Gamify the highest score.

          If it works, give them a few weeks to get used to it and then open it up – tell them they can claim the bounty on their own documents, but only for areas they haven’t succeeded at before and only for work they actually needed to do. When the bulletin board runs out of room, remove the oldest documents first – keep separate scores for “highest all-time” and “running total of what’s on the board”. Slower learners have a chance to shine (so they still have something to keep working towards), and anyone who runs out of tasks to learn can be offered the opportunity to prove themselves further by taking on new responsibilities.

          As for the cause of this, I think it’s influenced by employers’ continued push for people who do what they’re told – “You taught me to follow orders without question, what do you mean I have to think for myself?” as mentioned by Irish Teacher, hyaline, and (downthread) Raisin Walking to the Moon.

        2. Cj*

          you say you are working with people age 19 to 25, and I was wondering if the guy in your last paragraph was one of the younger interns.

          at 19, the only thing they would have taken in college is principles of accounting. at that point, you are really only qualified for a bookkeeping job, and not even that if they use GAAP. they won’t have had intermediate or Advanced accounting, and certainly not auditing.

          I was in college decades ago, so this might have changed since then, but I don’t recall doing a lot if any workpapers in my auditing class, and certainly not an entire practice set like there were in other accounting classes. it was more just an explanation of pulling random AR and AP invoices, verifying Bank balances, etc. although looking back at prior years workpapers should give them a clue.

          I’m a CPA, and sometimes discuss CPA exam experiences with others. everyone I talk to that only failed one section of the exam failed auditing the first time around. it’s not that auditing is harder then other areas of accounting, but you have so many accounting classes in college, as mentioned above, and only one auditing class so they can’t cover as much.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            That guy was actually one of the older ones. However, he had the additional handicap of coming from a blue collar family and previous jobs were blue collar. All I can think is it was drilled into him to never question. Even when I very specifically told him to ask questions, asked him what questions he had, etc. And yes, I did look for previous posts about the blue collar to white collar adjustment, and was able to help him some.

            He seemed to do best at the very defined processes without a lot of judgement, which is not audit. He didn’t do well in the tax department but that was probably because the person who was training him also wasn’t doing well (and got let go for it). He got shifted to the consulting team. I haven’t heard how he’s doing there, but I hope its working out well. Haven’t seen him in a while just because of scheduling. Rooting for him, he’s the first in his family to go to college and he’s worked really hard.

            The 19-20 year olds are interns, and yeah, they don’t have much in the way of classes sometimes. We just assign different things, there’s a huge variety of work that needs to be done so it’s fine. We often have the same interns come back, or even work part time year round, so there’s definitely evolution in base knowledge and understanding. Its cool to see, sometimes a particular class enables a whole bunch of things to suddenly make sense. We also hire a lot of the interns full time once they graduate. For scheduling reasons, most of the interns go to the consulting team, but then might rotate into audit once they graduate. However, I’ve got an intern right now who I think is 20? Just starting to work with him so not much of an impression yet. He’s one of the two that I’ll be training next so will be trying out some of the suggestions and ideas I’ve gotten.

            Audit is a different beast, and not everyone gets it. I love it and am really good at it, but I completely understand it’s not for all.

            1. Cj*

              yeah, if you don’t do well in the audit department, you certainly are going to do well in the tax department, especially if you don’t ask questions.

              Of course, tax laws are constantly changing, and you need to make decisions about the best way to prepare the return for that specific client. I’m not talking about not following the regulations when I say that, but there a lot of different but legitimate ways to do a return, like should you take section 179, and if so how much.

              I was fortuneate enough to have an awesome and patient mentor when I started doing returns, which I will be eternally grateful for. I try to be that person for people new to the profession now.

    6. Goddess47*

      Yes, a discussion on ‘how to figure it out’ is very necessary.

      But! You will also need a clear lesson on *where* to look. There’s even more bad information out there with AI and using tools like ChatGPT or whatever will give them wrong information.

      If you need help with all of that, talk to the librarian at a local two-year college. More than likely, they’d love to collaborate on something like this or may even have something you can use.

      Good luck!

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Luckily, we have decent sources of info, will make sure they’re aware of them. Problem is, the newest staff are so new that they don’t have the ability to use the source without help. That is the case regardless, it took me a couple years to get good enough that using all the sources was effective.

    7. Attractive Nuisance*

      Have you made it clear to them that they should be spending time figuring stuff out by themselves? And how much time they should spend doing that before they ask you or give up? And how that time should be billed/accounted for (if applicable)?

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        probably not clearly enough, not clearly, and yes. I will work on that, thanks.

    8. Tradd*

      Are they having issues with Excel? I would recommend they take an online course for that (would the company pay for it, at least partly, or allow them to do it during business hours).

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Excel skills are an issue, though there’s a lot of variation there. And yes, we’re taking steps to get them some excel training. I’ve given my input of what I’m seeing and what I need them to be comfortable with, but it’s out of my hands at this point.

    9. Name*

      This is in response to the original question and the follow ups.

      I invite everybody to flip the script on this problem. Imagine a poster wrote that their Gen X and/or Boomer manager consistently failed at a task. Imagine they extrapolated that to an entire generation. Imagine they expressed frustration that this person doesn’t know what to do.

      I strongly suspect there would be A LOT of comments about how this is ageist.

      I would like to know why somebody – openly – complain about an entire group of people but there is no other demographic that would be tolerated.

      You need help managing people. You need help explaining processes to people. We are told time and time again that age should not be a factor. So do not let it be a factor here.

      1. Tradd*

        There is SOMETHING going on with Gen Z workers because friends who are managers tell me about it all the time. I’ve seen it myself with multiple individuals in this age group.

      2. Rex Libris*

        I didn’t see anyone going off on the “kids these days” type rant you seem to be implying. The comments I’ve posted or read specify that they’re speaking about some, not all, individuals but enough that they’ve noticed a trend.

        I’m Gen X, and could give you a list of workplace issues you’re more likely to encounter with Gen X employees too. That doesn’t mean every Gen Xer, or exclude non Gen Xers.

        2. Name*

          It is really great that you, as an individual, would welcome these comments about GenXers.

          As a general rule, negative comments about young people as a class are welcome and negative comments about older people as a class are ageist.

          The OP could have written this entire question without mentioning age at all but they didn’t. Because, consciously or not, it is acceptable to disparage young people with a broad brush.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            No. I wrote the question very specifically mentioning ages because in my experience, there are real differences in how people from different generations operate. No, its not and never will be universal, but if a significant number people in a generation have a certain trait then it’s valid to consider.

            I would get different advice if I didn’t mention ages, because how you teach a 20 year old is going to have differences than a 40 year old, whether you like it or not. These people haven’t seen a utility bill (they haven’t, I’ve asked), I have to teach them what it is and how to read it. And that’s before I ask them to evaluate if its a payable or not.

            1. Lurker*

              “These people haven’t seen a utility bill (they haven’t, I’ve asked), I have to teach them what it is and how to read it. And that’s before I ask them to evaluate if its a payable or not.”

              Wow. I feel for you.

              1. I'm A Little Teapot*

                Eh, that part is normal for a 19 year old intern honestly. It’s less normal for the 24 year old, but I chalk that up to the housing problems. I think all of them are still living with their parents, or at I know the people on the audit team are. I don’t know the younger staff on consulting as well.

                If that was all of it I’d be fine. It’s actually pretty fun to introduce all these things to these “baby adults” to use the cute term I’ve seen online. Best case, I’m blowing their minds on a regular basis because it’s all new to them. I do a lot of explaining how something works because the invoice shows up on the sample. But when you struggle to apply the background knowledge about a gas bill to an electric bill to an internet bill to any other type of invoice…. It’s rough. I’m trying. Got some ideas which will hopefully help.

                1. Lurker*

                  I guess it’s normal…but at the same time the fact that they can’t even figure out how to decipher a utility bill without being told seems worrisome. I never saw a utility bill until I moved out on my own, and no one explained to me how to understand it.

                  I’m Gen X and back in the day, there was no Google for me to even look up “how to read utility bill.” You could probably find a YouTube video for it; or just go to the utility company’s website. It’s like they have to no ability to think or figure out anything on their own.

            2. BikeWalkBarb*

              Wasn’t quite sure where to drop this reply. The “is it ageist” question got tied to “is it this generation”. As you’ve described their lack of awareness or experience with something like utility bills, at least some of this isn’t based on their generation–it’s age and experience. I’m guessing that a 21-year-old this year and a 21-year-old of 20 or 40 years ago probably had roughly the same knowledge of utility bills because they haven’t lived on their own long enough to pay any. That’s based on how much time they’ve had to learn about life stuff, not based on being part of a specific generation.

              Recognizing that people who have been alive longer have more experience and knowledge isn’t ageist to me. You’re asking for developmentally appropriate techniques for a given range of age/experience/knowledge. An elementary school teacher doesn’t use the same techniques as a high school teacher.

              You’ve gotten some suggestions about asking them what they’ve tried, having checklists, etc. What about asking them to develop the user manual/cookbook that will help the next person in their position understand how to do what they’re doing? Having to explain it to someone else is a good exercise in figuring out what you do and don’t know.

              Maybe it isn’t even a written document–maybe it’s a TikTok video, screen captures with overlaid red circles and handwritten text pointing to the spot you click, what-have-you–if you review what they understand enough to explain in some way, shape, or fashion, you can spot what they missed. Tell them you expect them not to have it all figured out; this is capturing the knowledge they’ve gotten so far. Can they review each other’s products of this type and collectively identify what’s missing?

              I’m also wondering how much you’ve had a chance to learn and practice coaching and training around neurodiversity and different learning styles. I know that’s an area I need to learn more about so I can deliver information in a variety of ways that fit better with how others receive that information and develop their own way of understanding it and organizing it into knowledge they can apply. Neurodiversity (“being neurofabulous”, as one of my colleagues calls it) is far more prevalent than we realized in the past and thinking about it from that angle rather than age might highlight some new approaches.

              1. I'm A Little Teapot*

                Regarding your last paragraph – zero. I’m not a teacher. I’m an accountant. My degree is in accounting, I’ve never even stepped foot into a education classroom. I am not suited to a teaching profession. Training is a part of my job yes, but it’s because I’m the one with the experience and capacity to train. Anyone in my role will be training staff, regardless of their ability to train. That is the case for the entire profession.

                I absolutely do try to have staff training other staff. If you can teach it, then you know you know it after all. The opportunities for that are limited, but when I can I do it. We also had at least one of the staffers involved in some updates to our documentation this summer, but that is done periodically, not continuously. I haven’t worked with her on those areas lately, but I would hope it helped her understanding.

                And yes, the lack of knowledge of utility bills in early 20s people is not new. What is new is the lack of ability to look at a utility bill, understand how its put together and what elements are in there, then look at a completely different type of invoice and apply that understanding to the 2nd invoice. The knowledge isn’t getting applied generally, it’s getting tied to specific things.

                Frankly, if someone wants to think I’m being ageist, I don’t care as long as I can figure out how to train these people properly. I want them to succeed. I’ve gotten some good ideas and things to try, so hopefully it’ll help.

                1. GythaOgden*

                  I know you’re not involved in hiring, but my boss was basically given the opportunity to construct her team from scratch when there was a large reorganisation about 15 months ago. She deliberately looked at people’s skillsets and chose people who had different strengths to make sure there was one person on the team with significant technical background, one guy who had been in healthcare adjacent work most of his career, one guy with a compliance background, two women with private sector property experience (one property manager but also a former estate agent) and so on. The compliance guy is also a superlative trainer who can make some very complicated things very easy to understand.

                  This is not to say that you can go hunting for the best people out there but that people totally get where you’re coming from.

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        I think younger employees, like 19 to 25 year olds, are likely to have specific issues in a way that say people in their 50s wouldn’t. Just because certain issues are more likely when one is starting out and/or not very mature. I think not being able to apply what one knows can be part of this, both because they haven’t had much experience yet and because they are still “new” adults who may still be used to authority figures telling them what to do and may be nervous about taking initiative.

        It is less likely that a 40 year old will have no experience of applying knowledge to a new situation.

        Add on things like the pandemic which have a disproportionate effect on those starting out and I don’t think it is unfair to ask for specific advice about managing young employees with little previous experience.

      4. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I’m aware it’s not all of them. But it is all of the people in this age group that I’m working directly with. I’ve been training new staff in this role for 10+ years, and while there are always a few it has never been all. Which is why I asked for help. So, rather than telling me I’m ageist, would you give me some concrete things to try that might help these people BEFORE they get fired?

      5. GythaOgden*

        It’s not necessarily ageist. Part of it is a difference in perception as you get older and more experienced in the workplace, part of it is the perennial perception of younger folks surprising the people who are now a few steps up and ladder, and honestly some of the generations just now starting work were hard hit by the pandemic just as they were entering university and may actually lack some skills that other generations might have.

    10. Anon for This*

      Did any of them have work experience before they came to you? I have stopped hiring people who never had a job before. Flipping burgers or working retail helps one learn to figure things out. Those whose parents paved the way for them haven’t learned how to handle things themselves.

      I agree with the person who suggested giving them checklists on the steps to follow – particularly for the interns. When they inevitably come and ask you what to do, ask to see the checklist. I’d bet they haven’t used it.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        It varies, though I haven’t specifically asked. We’re hiring right out of college, and interns are still in college. Some have had jobs previously I know. I don’t have control/input over hiring.

        Our workpapers are essentially checklists. But I realize that I haven’t necessarily taught them how to read and understand that checklist, so will do that.

    11. Hyaline*

      If you spend some time poking around the annals of education publications, you will find quite a bit of commiseration from post-secondary-ed educators (at least–probably secondary ed, too but I read less of that)–all frustrated that their incoming college students display very little self-propulsion to just TRY IT YOURSELF and FIGURE IT OUT and FAIL JUST FAIL A FEW TIMES PLEASE. It’s so painfully normal–my students expect handholding all the way through an assignment, prescriptive prompts (very little choose your own adventure) and the equivalent of bumper bowling in terms of completing work. There are probably a million hypotheses why this is, but one I find myself settling on often is the excessive weight of standardized testing in their lives–they’re taught to follow very prescriptive instructions, do it THIS WAY, are not given any freedom to work out for themselves what is expected or how to do it, and end up spending most of their lives up to high school graduation following detailed directions instead of learning how to experiment, try, fail, try again.

      Consider scaffolding them a bit. The first time they do The New Thing, give them pretty clear instructions. Be willing to answer *specific* questions, because *specific* questions show that they’ve been thinking about the task and aren’t sure the best way to proceed (not “how do I do this” but “should I do X or Z first to complete this?”). But on the next round, pull back a little–and be clear you’re doing this. “I gave you a template the first time. Now I want you to apply what you did there to this report.” Will they like it? Will they jump to it and thrive? Probably not. But each time they do a similar task, throttle back the support more and more–and as you have trained, functional employees, have them mentor the new ones. Encourage the googling–if they ask “How do I set up the spreadsheet to do X?” throw them to google (or direct them to more specific resources–honestly, learning what resources are best for a specific industry or area is a skill, too). And create at atmosphere where taking multiple tries and screwing up but fixing your mistakes is normal. If they expect perfection on the first go, they’ll remain paralyzed. If you give them a due date for a *draft* and it’s clear you expect they’re going to need to make corrections, they may loosen up a little.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        That makes sense with what I’m seeing, thanks. And gives me some ideas.

    12. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      I’ve found that if one employee isn’t doing something well, that’s likely on them. If many of them aren’t, that’s on me. It means either that 1. I’m not giving them the resources and tools needed to complete the work; or 2. in hiring and onboarding I did not actively focus on recruiting for the correct skills needed for the job.

      It sounds like you have a problem with the latter. This doesn’t help with the current employees, but it would be worth having a discussion with your manager about what skills are needed so those are able to be considered in future searches. Alternatively, if your company is really finding zero entry level candidates with the skills needed, then it’s incumbent upon the company to hire them with the understanding they lack these skills and the expectation of a period of organized training (think apprenticeships).

      I generally find that complaining about “kids these days” is not useful because every generation will come up with strengths the one before did not have, as well as weaknesses.

      1. Tradd*

        I don’t think this is a helpful comment. Telling the OP that repeated issues are her fault is like telling me it’s my fault my company keeps getting people applying for an in-office job that REALLY want WFH. We tell them it’s in office, WFH never an option, yet they take the job, only to change their mind later. We’ve had the same issues with younger employees the OP does, as well.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Yeah, I know I’m not training them well. Which is why I’m asking for help. I’ve been training new staff for 15+ years, my methods haven’t changed, the work hasn’t fundamentally changed, but in the past 2 years the new staff are suddenly not getting it? It’s not just me.

        They’re capable. They certainly seem to be thriving on the consulting side of the business. I just need to get them to do as well in audit.

    13. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      We always found our new grads and interns (3rd year engineering students in Germany) were awesome self-starters that needed little hand-holding once we gave them their projects, just brief weekly 1-1s.
      Gen Z is ace, imo, every bit as capable as previous generations.

      – Could it be your selection process – Are you selecting for the necessary skills?

      – Is your pay at market level ? – if it’s say exploitive non-profit level then maybe you are just being left with the lowest ability level who can’t find anything better.

      – Is your training & documentation fully up to date ? – does it cover what they need to know and include plenty of work example tasks so they can receive feedback/correction ?

      – Is your onboarding and training being done remotely? That can be very difficult to do adequately, expecially for a 1st job. In-person training and shadowing is so much better for them if their work is not very standardised.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        I have no input/control into hiring or pay. Pay is average, but we are a smaller company. We generally train in person. Sometimes we’re over zoom but its rare. Documentation is there, but I don’t think they’re referencing it to the extent they could. Will work on that, ty.

        1. anxiousGrad*

          To encourage them to look at the documentation, I would task them with updating protocols. That way they’ll actually look at it and think about it, and maybe they’ll edit it so that it makes more sense to them. Going forward, if the next groups of interns are like them, they might understand documentation with edits and annotations written by the previous cohort better than what’s currently there.

    14. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would tell them all, before you ask me, you must try 1. menus 2. google 3. previous workpaper 4. etc
      THEN you can come ask.

    15. Bitte Meddler*

      I am in Audit, too, and was responsible for training / mentoring interns and new staff (junior) auditors.

      SAP was the ERP of record for all of the companies I’ve worked at except my current one. SAP is verrrry un-user friendly. I was the go-to person for questions on how to get info out of SAP.

      The new hires and interns stared, wide-eyed, when I showed them stuff and they said, “I never took a class on / was trained to use SAP.”

      I replied, “Neither did I. But we have read-only access to the system, so just start clicking a bunch of stuff and see what happens. You can’t mess anything up.”

      Ditto with Excel. “Make a copy of the file. Then Google what it is you think you want to do and start trying the suggestions.”

      And when it came to walkthroughs and they panic, “Manager said I need to be prepared to ask them some questions. What do I ask?!” I said, “I don’t know. What do you find interesting about [process]? Is there something you’ve always wanted to know about it or how it works? Ask *those* questions.”

      Them: “What if I say something / look stupid?!”
      Me: “Then you will have joined a group of millions, including me. Plus, right now you have a Get Out of Jail Free card… You’re new. Nobody expects you to know more about their job than they do. This walkthrough is your own personal Ask Me Anything with [department]. Go wild!”

      Lastly, the best thing a manager did for me when I was intern was hand me a laptop, point me to some Power BI and Qlik Sense online courses, tell me which datasets I was supposed to analyze, and then say, “Try to break it,” while pointing to the laptop.

      Permission to completely eff the whole thing up? I am on it!! :-)

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        LOL, you speak my language. And gave me an idea, thanks. Our audit software really isn’t complicated but it is intimidating the heck out of some people, I think because it is so simple. It is very much not the current style of apps. I can make a test file for them to play around in and get more comfortable. Thank you.

        1. DigitalDiva*

          I think this might be a great way to go about it! I’m 25 – and a really high performer in my field (I have an MA, and I’m just about to go from one very well known institution in my field to another, better one.) I run trainings in a database, and one thing I’ve learned is that trial and error in a hands-on environment is very helpful. Tasks that have low stake but require trial and error and goals can be useful for meeting people where they’re at.

          I would also encourage targeting your individual training a bit more? I’ve noticed at my workplace that people using my database – when it’s new to them – if they have institutional knowledge, they tend to use the search bar, but people who don’t have it tend to use the folder structure I’ve set up. This allows me to target the training – and I adapt while I’m training to the user – so in combination, it becomes more on me to adapt their learning to what will work best for them.

          I would also, though, as others have said, urge against conflating a generation. While yes, there may be detriments that people my age have experienced, there are also benefits- we’re resilient in the face of major turmoil, so our crisis management is great; we’re adept at speaking to people of different backgrounds; and we care a lot about doing things well.

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            I’m not using names in the thread, but in my head I am most definitely thinking of individuals, and they do all have strengths and weaknesses. Most of them do have this weakness in common, some more than others. And yes, I’m seeing lots of good skills and traits. Once they can develop the “figure it out” skill, they’re going to really shine.

            I’ll set up a test file and get it to them this week. Won’t be difficult. I think a lot of the struggle is more computer related in nature. The best way to learn to use a computer is to use a computer after all.

    16. Risky Business*

      One possibility for this behavior is that this batch of trainees is risk-averse with a fear of failure. It wouldn’t hurt to make it clear that you’ll expect them to make mistakes, as they’re a natural part of training and learning. Would you prefer them to try incorrectly, rather than do nothing? If so, tell them that.

    17. Sharon*

      I’ve noticed that a lot of younger people are very fearful of trying anything if they aren’t certain they will be successful at it or do it the “right” way. So make sure you’re explicitly directing them to turn on their brain and problem solve and make it clear that you’d rather they try and get it wrong than just wait for direction.

      And then when they come to you for answers, walk them through it. Help them understand the ultimate goal of the work so they’re not just blindly processing TPS reports, then ask them to suggest next steps to achieve that goal. Ask leading questions like “Do you think there might be an easier way to find that information?” or “What did you do last time you weren’t sure what to put in that field?” or “What will the reader of this report use it for?”

      1. Rock cruncher*

        I really like this answer. This paralysis problem I think has been building since I graduated in the 2000’s. it’s hard to know whether getting it wrong is ok when you’re job searching and see all those “entry-level” job listings asking for 2+ years experience. There’s a lot of pressure to pretend you understand how things work.

        I’d say that “figuring it out” is a skill you can learn, and if these people aren’t being taught it in their education, you may be able to incorporate it into your training. Make suggestions and make it safe for folks to come to you for a check on an answer they aren’t sure about. See what sticks and develop a method like you do for other aspects of their training. They’ll think very highly of you if you succeed, my first job in my industry was terrible but my boss was great at this particular thing and I still benefit from it.

  23. Panda (she/her)*

    I’m looking for advice/experience working as a manager in a unionized company. About 6 months ago, I joined a government-adjacent organization where all non-management staff are unionized. I come from private sector, and have never managed unionized employees before, but have picked it up over the past year. I’m running into some challenges though, and want to gauge how typical these are (mostly because they’re dealbreakers for me, and I’ll be looking to leave if they don’t change):

    – I manage a team of senior individual contributors. They are all in the top IC band, so there are no more promotions available unless they go into management. Several of them have clear performance issues (low productivity – like 50% of other team members, inability to work independently, borderline verbal abuse and refusal to share work) and I have started down the road of performance management. Now my manager is telling me to stop performance managing because it’s a waste of time (and to not even provide feedback/coaching). To be clear, terminations and demotions DO happen at my organization, although it’s a lot of work, and my senior leadership team recognizes the performance issues of my team. They just don’t want me to deal with them.
    – My team’s union rep is telling them that some of the things I am doing are “red flags” and “concerning” when they are mandated by my company’s policies and HR. Things like keeping employee records, discussing future development plans, reviewing performance, etc. I don’t know how to approach this – these are all standard things, but it’s causing anxiety for people on my team because they’re worried they’ll be penalized for it.
    – POLITICS. Omg the politics.

    1. Union nerd*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! Just like companies, some unions are good and some bad. I’m a steward and our union wants managers to be more diligent about addressing low productivity, because we want people to be paid well for good work and not laziness. If both the union and managers are problems then I don’t see any likelihood of positive change.

    2. Kathenus*

      As a past union staff manager, here are some things that were really important in our situation. First, know and refer to the contract very closely. Second, the contract and rules must be enforced equally – you can’t hold a lower performing employee to them more closely but let a higher performing one not follow them. Third, if there is a past practice of not enforcing parts of the contract consistently that you (as an organization) want to start enforcing again, give advance notice to the union in writing – i.e. section xx and yy of the contract have not been enforced consistently in the past, but this is notice to zz union that starting aa date these provisions will be enforced (please note that we got this from a lawyer at the time, but obviously check in your area what the process is – this is our example).

      I will say that if your organization is not willing to enforce it, especially if it’s your direct manager, you’re in a much harder place. But it is definitely worth the time and effort to do so, the more corners you cut due to expediency, the more problems you get over time and the more you potentially lose high performers due to demotivation of low performers having no consequences. It’s tough, good luck.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Honestly, none of this sounds in the least normal to me.

      Perhaps it’s different as I’m in the public sector, but…unions are more involved with stuff like negotiating wages or benefits and they mostly interact with top level. Like our teaching unions usually negotiate with the government, not individual principals. They can represent a staff concern to a principal, but that would happen maybe once every couple of years.

      Your telling them, “well, this is what I am mandated to do by the company” should either end the debate or mean they move to negotiate with the company or with HR. Telling you it’s a “red flag” and “concerning” and then…not having a vote on whether to demand change or speaking to those making the policies or voting on industrial action is…weird. It’s not you they should be discussing that with since you have no power to change it. The union should be negotiating with HR or the company leaders and then the membership of the union should be voting on whatever is decided and possibly taking industrial action if the company does not engage with them or most employees are unhappy enough with the results to vote for industrial action.

      The point of a union is partly so that they can discuss things like this with the company as a whole rather than having these discussions with individual managers.

      A lot of your company’s issues don’t sound like they are unrelated to the fact that the company is unionised. Your manager telling you not to performance manage sounds more like a problem either with your manager or the company as a whole rather than with the employees who are unionised.

      And I don’t think union environments are any more likely than non-union ones to have politics issues.

      This sounds like a dysfunctional company rather than an issue related to unionisation.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        Honestly, none of this sounds in the least normal to me.

        Perhaps it’s different as I’m in the public sector,

        I’d not familiar with the FSLMRS in the United States, and now I’m curious which country Panda is working in. You’re in Ireland, right? The differences could be from different laws shaping what unions look like for her.

    4. Guacamole Bob*

      The first issue sounds like a manager problem, not a union problem. It’s absolutely harder to fire someone who is in the union at my workplace, but there are clear procedures for performance management and termination and you should be allowed to follow them if needed.

      Does your company have a labor relations team? We have folks based out of our HR department whose job it is to work through union issues. If my employees were hearing from their rep that something like keeping employee records and doing basic performance reviews was concerning, I’d be asking that team for guidance and to step in.

    5. A Significant Tree*

      I’m currently represented (fed gov), and was at my previous private sector job too. It sounds like your company has a contentious relationship with the union and the individuals you’re talking to (your direct manager, the union rep) aren’t all that well-versed in what is and isn’t okay per the contract. I agree with the advice for you to read and be very familiar with the current contract because I’m not sure you’re getting the most accurate information from people who should know better.

      For example, I know that both my current and previous contracts had specific things to say about performance reviews (e.g. some aspects are optional to union employees and mandated for non-union, but we still do regular performance reviews and development plans). My managers have always been allowed to provide feedback on performance as needed, and employees were always allowed to have a union rep present during these meetings if they felt it was necessary, but the answer was never Don’t Give Feedback.

      However, if your upper management is already telling you to … not do standard manager things, then even knowing what your role and responsibilities are with respect to union employees isn’t going to help if you’re not supported. You mentioned that is a dealbreaker for you and I agree, you can’t manage effectively if you’re not allowed to manage at all.

    6. Government worker*

      It’s definitely a culture issue, not a union issue. I had a manager tell me that trying to fire someone was like having a second full-time job so she was only willing to do it for something egregious like sexual harassment, not performance issues. That wasn’t the case in other departments, and I realized that our frontline management, as much as administration, was responsible for the dysfunction in our workplace when they weren’t willing to hold people accountable. I commend you for wanting to make a difference as a manger. I don’t know how you do that without the support of upper management, though. But I wouldn’t blame it on being unionized, I would blame it on bad management.

  24. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    If your department within a larger org has ever had a shift in focus/mission/priorities — not necessarily a restructure because no ones job title or formal job description has changed — but other departments used to rely on you for services, and now that’s no longer your priority, how have you managed the implementation and reset expectations? Successes and failures welcome.

    The change to my department has been gradual by design over the last few years, and we haven’t and won’t make a formal all-org announcement, but folks have definitely noticed we aren’t as “helpful” as we used to be because our priority has changed. We implemented quite a few self-service options for them, at our dpt expense, but they are used to us doing it, so it sounds like we are shirking our responsibilities … like declaring “That’s Not My Job” when on one hand it IS, but it also isn’t for THEM anymore. That was vague I know, but I hope it wasn’t too confusing.

    1. MsM*

      What exactly is the reasoning behind not making some kind of announcement, or at least a “hey, we know you’re used to coming to us for this, but there have been some changes” clarification?

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        We were doing it gradually so that hopefully people wouldn’t panic or get in an uproar and could adjust to self-service. It’s mostly worked, but this year we are really cutting them off now but we don’t want to announce, for instance, “we are still responsible for org-level XYZ, but you can’t come to us for your [little] projects anymore.”

        1. MsM*

          Well, don’t phrase it like that. Make it more of a “We’re still here to help with XYZ, and happy to provide advice advice on transitioning to handling ABC internally if you need it, but now’s the time to figure out how to address those processes with your own teams if you haven’t already.”

          1. BikeWalkBarb*

            Great advice. A quiet retreat without telling anyone something at some point feels unnecessarily sneaky and will contribute to ongoing requests for things you don’t do. Tear the bandage off with kind wording like MsM’s script.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      When my team started saying “DIY” on some of our services instead of doing them, we did some education beforehand: we got management buy-in from the teams for whom we provided these services, and explained that we were doing away with them in order to create bandwidth for services that provided more value. We educated people on HOW to do it themselves, provided context, and gently reminded folks when they forgot. Now folks seem to be getting it.

  25. Anon today*

    Manager of a group of professional/slightly conservative industry office folks
    I am leaving soon to another company. One of my staffers is interested in moving up but is not quite qualified for my position. I told them that and that it would take some work getting the necessary certifications to move into my position. What I did not tell them is that my boss (their grandboss) has some concerns about their “professionalism/maturity” because of their… personality for lack of a better descriptor. This person is neurodivergent and can come across as a bit flaky/immature (over 50, has office decorated with Marvel/cartoon figures, wears somewhat youngish/”fun” clothing) I have had no issue with them because I believe in the results which are generally good.

    Do I say anything to them about how they are perceived by the GB?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      If you feel like this person might be a good fit for the role and would add value there, then yes, you should consider coaching them on what kind of professional presence would best help them in getting that role. I might frame it as “something that could really help you with GB if you want this role would be paying attention to your professional presence in certain ways. GB is someone who attaches a fair amount of importance to things like appearance and dress, and even the appearance of your office. Putting a bit of professional polish on those things would likely help them to see your professional ABILITY more clearly.” Now, if the person IS flaky and immature in their approach to work…that’s another issue and might take more time to fix. You’d have to handle that like any performance issue.

    2. TX_Trucker*

      If this is a good employee I would share the concerns. Appearance shouldn’t matter, but in many organizations they do. I mentor many young folks and I repeatedly hear they are committed to being “real” and don’t want to come across as being fake. I try to convey that it’s not fake to adjust to your circumstances. You don’t act the same way at a concert, hospital, movie theatre, church, etc. Just like you adjust your behavior depending on the location, sometimes you need to adjust your clothing and other items.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I really struggled with this concept as a young adult! But I am also neurodivergent, and I think there is a deeper level of MUST be true to ourselves and also for most of us a lot of ???? around what the boss is wanting but not asking for. I’ll say Anon, the mix of your employee and your manager may not make for a good pair, and it may be a service to your employee to note that – if they want to move into management, they can try XYZ but also there will just be some leaders who don’t respect ‘otherness’ enough to see the performance behind the superhero figures.

        1. GythaOgden*

          I’d also suggest that it might not be a good fit at another firm. Knowing how literal minded my thought patterns can be, if you said it like that I’d read ‘GB doesn’t like it but HC next door might be ok with it’.

          This doesn’t mean no tchotchkes at all, just dial it back enough that they’re inconspicuous.

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I don’t think I’d suggest telling them that the GB perceives their professionalism/maturity negatively. Rather, I’d tell them the things that GB will be looking for in the person who would take on your role. Include certifications, how they present themselves to the office/outsiders, etc. You’re not yucking your staffers’ yum, but painting a picture of what the boss is going to be looking for.

      1. Anon today*

        How do I say (politely) – GB is looking for someone that DOESNT have Marvel characters all over, dresses a bit more grown up etc? I just think that GB doesn’t really respect this person due to the perception

        1. The Man from Chicago*

          Do you think anything would change if the person right now took all the stuff down and changed their dress? I’ve known some people like GB, and once someone’s labelled in their brain, it’s stamped-in-steel permanent.

          There’s no use making the person self conscious about their mannerisms if changing them wouldn’t change the outcome.

          1. XYZZYX*

            I guess my question would be what is the alternative if they want to advance?

            Lie to them about why they are getting passed up over and over? Keep kicking the can down the road with vague statements like “you will move up soon” (said over years)

            I don’t think there is a good solution

          2. Cj*

            the thing is, they will be getting a new manager who might think the same thing as their grand boss does. if they take the stuff in their office down and start dressing differently now, before their new manager starts, the new manager won’t have a chance to form the same perception of them in the first place.

            and even if their new manager doesn’t have a problem with it, grandboss might leave the company before they do, so their GB not changing their perception won’t matter.

    4. GythaOgden*

      It wouldn’t hurt. Neurodivergence possibly means that they aren’t as likely to be able to read the room and thus are oblivious to the idea that highly personalised decor might be seen as more problematic in a higher level employee than it is in a lower level one. (It’s not something that super common IME in the UK but that’s generally because open offices are much more common and in these days of mass WFH few people in my org have assigned desks. We’re not totally against any personal objects on display — my Dalek print behind my WFH workspace acted as a conversation piece when I first started and people were getting to know me. One of the guys I gofer for puts up his kid’s drawings behind him. There’s a kind of running joke about another guy’s orange wall which he had to paint over in duck-egg blue because he’s trying to sell his house, but his Teams photo still shows it as orange. That kind of thing is totally ok for higher level colleagues — but if your cube looks like a child’s bedroom that is going to be a problem. (For the same reason I didn’t sit with my back to my wall of Russian-language books. I’m already a tad awkward about it and I’d rather be known as the Dalek girl than as Ms. Putin.)

      Explaining it, I’d probably say something like this: ‘You know when you go to an interview you wear smarter clothes than you would otherwise do? So, yeah, the Marvel decor would be seen as a little unprofessional for someone at a higher level. This might be holding you back in terms of perception and thus you may want to think about toning it down a bit if you want to be promoted.’ I’d then talk about having my geeky self on display with a discreet print of some Dalek schematics and suggest a similar nod to fandom without the total kids-bedroom overkill.

  26. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I’m working on a guide for science communication, targeted towards undergraduate students. Can anyone recommend books, resources, strategies, experts, or other things to recommend to help students learn about communicating science so the average person can understand it?

    1. ... also depressed, sigh*

      You didn’t ask for “examples,” but I can say I’ve really enjoyed the woman who presents for PBS’s “Terra” program–brief (approx 20 min) climate science videos on YouTube. She’s a science communicator, per the title card of the shorts, and she’s excellent. For what that’s worth!

    2. Angstrom*

      I use Randall Munroe — author of “What If?” and other books and the xkcd comic as an example of modern good science communication.

      In an older style, J.E. Gordon’s “Structures, or why things don’t fall down” was exactly the book I needed early in my career. It reads like sitting in a pub with a retired professor.

    3. Ann on a Moose Wearing Feather of Goose*

      I’d say there are several levels of “average person”: Any random off the street, an average person with some level of scientific background, and an average person also in their field.

      Assuming you’re talking about writing for Joe Q. Public, my biggest pet peeve when trying to read articles is undefined technical terms. You don’t have to define what “is” means, but you should probably be defining something like “Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy” for people outside the field.

      While searching for a nice jargony example to use, I did come across a resource from the University of Toronto that may be helpful. I’ll link it in a child comment to this one.

    4. Pizza Rat*

      I went school with Maren Hunsberger and she had so much raw talent, it’s wonderful to see how she’s developed her science communication craft over the years. She’s well-educated and easy to watch — she may be a good resource.

    6. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      I subscribe to Your Local Epidemiologist – she started up during the pandemic, and she is an amazing communicator. She’s won some awards for it. I also think SciShow and Kurzgesagt (In a Nutshell) on YouTube are great at explaining science stuff to non-professionals. Bill Nye the Science Guy is a classic. But these are all really geared at folks who are already into learning about science. If you have an unwilling/uninterested audience you need to convince, that’s a different skillset.

      Really, science communication is just communication about a specific subject, so I don’t think you need specialized science resources. Don’t use acronyms without defining them, don’t assume everyone knows what you know, test run your articles/presentations by several people to see if they get what you’re saying before publishing. Step out of the echo chamber. I feel like the biggest barrier to communication is the feeling that “we shouldn’t need to explain/justify why this thing is important”. See vaccines as a case in point.

    7. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      I’ve found “Writing Science: How to write papers that get cited and proposals that get funded” by Joshua Schimel to be an excellent guide, not just for papers and proposals, but for most types of communicating science to audiences who are not expert in the writer’s own area of specialization, but who have a basic science literacy. It’s aimed toward grad students and more senior scientists, but it’s not inaccessible for others. The advice focuses on principles like presenting a the topic in a way that addresses the audience’s prior knowledge, interests and concerns; crafting a clear and vivid narrative based on elements of story structure; purposeful use of vocabulary and mechanics. It’s got a small section specifically on communicating science to the general public, but I think the principles discussed in terms of research papers or funding proposals also apply to other forms of science communication and other audiences.

      Specifically for undergrad students, “A Student Handbook for Writing In Biology” by Karin Knisely is relevant to more than Biology. It’s kind of an academic/professional writring handbook for student scientists, with as much guidance about grammar, mechanics, and scientific communication conventions as about how to present science/biology information accurately and effectively.

      Speaking of which, IMO most undergraduates need resources on non-casual writing in general, not just the specific aspects pertaining to science. I like “The Bedford Handbook” for this if you want a book that can be found in hardcopy, that you can recommend students pick up a cheap used copy to reference on mechanics, structure, rhetorical strategies, etc. Older editions are still quite good. I think the one on my reference shelf is 4th edition from the 1990s, and the only parts that are obsolete are the “how to use an internet search engine” or “how to format your paper specifically in the then-current version of a few popular softwares” sections. The actual writing advice is still relevant.

      When I’m wearing my editor hat and giving feedback on a draft, I more often link an online reference than a book. Several universities have great resources intendeded for students but freely and publicly available; I suggest vetting them yourself to find the ones that best cover what you need. I’ll do a web search like, for instance, “writing lab what is parallel structure” or “how to improve sentence clarity” and skim the top few results to find one that clearly explains the idea and gives examples.
      I like a lot of the content at Purdue University Online Writing Lab (especially under General Writing ->Mechanics) although the website format and structure is ironically terrible.

      I’ve played with LLM AIs, and I find them counterproductive for developing writers. Experienced writers with a strong grasp of their subject may compensate for AI’s drawbacks with their own expertise; student writers cannot.

    8. Science of Working*

      The Ologies podcast just did a couple of episodes about science communication and Ali Ward is interesting and easy to learn from.

    9. Meh*

      Have them read science articles for laypeople and critique them – what worked, what didn’t. If they are science majors in different subjects, have them take a complicated topic the know and explain it to people in different fields.

  27. Anons For This*

    How best to handle someone who doesn’t treat you as an expert in your job?

    The long version is:
    – I’ve been in my current role for 3 years, working in this partnership for 5 years, but at my company for 10+. My current role has a partner contract I manage, where the partner company has a parallel person who is supposed to work with me. (Parallel person has recently taken on this role at his company, only about a year and a half into the role and was uninvolved in the partnership prior.)
    – Said parallel person works with me but treats me like an underling and instead verifies everything I say with my director and VP. Like anything I okay for him, he says yes to me in agreement, but then goes and verifies at the next meeting with my superiors. He also routinely puts himself separate in presentations that we explain the org, but puts me underneath my manager (Director). Even though every description and discussion covers the fact we are the same role on opposite companies making this partnership successful.
    – There might be some cultural clash here (American vs Indian) and some gendered aspect here (I’m biologically female, partner is male).
    – My manager (Director) is very hands off so he’s more of a person to encourage me to solve this myself…which I’m at a loss to do.
    – As a side note, he also has the habit of taking credit for things I say and talking over me, but I’m a biologically female person working in tech, I can fully handle that. Just might provide context here.

    Just, how do I resolve this, it’s beginning to wear on me and make me feel unimportant in my own job and that my expertise and ownership of this account are coming into question.

    1. MsM*

      When you say “he has the habit of talking over me,” are you talking about the parallel person or the director? If it’s the former, be firm when you aren’t done speaking, and consider following up the meetings by putting things in writing and copying the director and VP so you can just go “yes, we confirmed that already; do you still have specific execution questions?” when he tries to rehash it again at the next meeting. If it’s the latter…unfortunately, I think you’ve got bigger problems.

      1. Anons For This*

        Former, and I’ve got no problems talking straight over him like he didn’t say something sometimes. Or calling him out. It’s frustrating but it’s the hazards of working in the bro tech world, you just roll with it and gain the moniker of a ball buster or a b*%$!.

        The writing idea is something I’ve half implemented, covering the decisions with my boss via chat so he’s aware at least when it comes up. Formal emails might be a good next step.

        1. Tio*

          Is your boss willing to toss out an email saying something like “Anything that needs confirmation should go through Anons”?

          2. Anons For This*

            Hard to say, I’ve worked with him for years so I’d like to think yes, but also there’s times where it’s complicated because of the very complicated nature of this contract and it’s impact on our business, that I think his habit is to resolve ASAP. He’s generally a good guy and a good boss, so I think his answer would be yes but in action it might be difficult for him to do.

            1. Mad Harry Crewe*

              Might be helpful to call it out to your boss specifically and ask for specific assistance. Spitballing, but something like “hey, can we have a big-picture chat about Partner? This isn’t comfortable to say, but I think it’s important to bring your attention to a pattern I’ve noticed. [lay out specific behaviors]. I don’t know what’s behind this and honestly it doesn’t matter – it’s getting in the way of me doing my job. I have two goals today: one, to make you aware something that might not be super visible otherwise, but which is definitely affecting my work. Two, when you see this happening, could you back me up by [specific action]”

              The specific action should be one thing that will have the biggest positive impact on you. “Routing him back to me” / “affirming my decision” would be good ones.

              I’d stick with one ask to start. Frankly, this is probably sexism. Equally frankly, a lot of people will not pick up on this kind of subtle, pervasive thing without it being pointed out as a pattern. Hopefully, by drawing his attention to it he can start to spot the recurring behaviors and really believe you.

              Good luck, this sounds miserable and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.

              1. Anons*

                Thanks, this is sort of what I’ve been thinking on but this language really helps. It comes and goes in frustrating waves, if it was more overt I think I’d be more chill with it oddly enough. I’m very used to dealing with overtly sexist dudes. But the subtle stuff is so hard for people to notice, particularly other dudes.

                (PS Great username!)

                1. Mad Harry Crewe*

                  Glad I could help.

                  Yeah, when it’s really blatant it’s easier to just laugh it off. The subtle friction kind of bigotry makes you question everything.

        2. A Significant Tree*

          Documenting and having the highers-up defer to you are great suggestions. Bonus points if upon further questioning, the Director or VP says “OP emailed about that already, what else do you need to proceed?”

          1. Miette*

            I second this advice. It’s not just your boss backing you up by saying, “You need to work with Anon directly on this,” it’s him saying it when the partner “forgets” to do it again. You may need to gently prod your boss to keep doing this, but honestly, if the guy ignores the request more than twice, I’d see about taking it up with his chain of command.

  28. Anon E Moose*

    I just want to thank everybody for the well wishes – I got the fab new job! I’m working out my notice and going crazy getting ready to move!

  29. grumpy*

    I’m late career. I’ve worked in start-ups all my life. I’m a high-level individual contributor (programmer/scientist). I love them. All the ones I’ve worked at have been decent – no 80 hour work weeks (without compensation) etc. Due to a lay-off last year, I’ll shortly be starting at a VERY large company – 10’s of thousands of people. unions. bureacracy.
    Has anyone made this switch? Any tips for me? things to be wary of? watch out for?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I empathize. Aside from the military for four years, all of my previous work experience has been with small companies. I started at current large (publicly traded) company two years ago and it has been a learning curve, for sure.
      Granted, some of my experiences probably won’t apply (old place was very slow to upgrade or use tech, in part because the CFO was also the de facto IT frontline. Imagine showing up 2 years post panini and not knowing how to use Teams).

      Beyond that, it is the culture shift that’s killing me. Best advice: eyes open, mouth shut, and don’t compare out loud. Current place works at a glacially slow pace compared to previous and readjusting my expectations for what counts as “quick turn around” had been a challenge.

      Good luck!

    2. WestsideStory*

      Say little. Listen a lot. Don’t make “office friends” too quickly but always be courteous and patient with everyone, even the obvious jerks.
      Most importantly, NEVER show off your expertise or be too quick with opinions or feedback. Even if asked. Inevitably you will come across something stupid that’s being done and you’ll want to scream, “you idiots! I can fix this!” People who have been successful by taking charge in a leadership vacuum (typical of startups) sometimes think they have to be agents of change, but it’s more important to read the room, stand back and absorb workplace norms in a larger, more hierarchical organization. Mind you, this can take some months.
      Large organizations typically have a lot of tribes, turf wars, and underground politicking that only becomes obvious over time. Sorry to be negative, but ask me how I know!

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Along with what WestsideStory said, “something stupid that’s being done and you’ll want to scream, you idiots! I can fix this!”, realize that sometimes the stupid thing is because they have historically tried other solutions already and this is the one that actually works despite its stupidness. Industry-wide best practices don’t always work as intended within an individual org.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yes, this^! Or they tried to change the thing a bunch of different ways (including the solution you propose) and none of them worked the way they wanted them to so they landed on what they have now. This happens at small companies too (like my last place, which was tiny and had all kinds of weirdnesses that we couldn’t change) but either way, before suggesting a change, be sure you know some of the history behind the weirdness you think needs to change.

    3. periwinkle*

      I’ve worked in companies of varying sizes, from big Fortune 50 to a 13-person agency to a startup. But wow, nothing prepared me for joining my current org of 150k+ people spread across 4 U.S. time zones plus several other continents.

      In a small company you know to call Nancy in Finance for charge codes or Wakeen in tech support if your computer is on fire. What do you do when your Finance team is larger than many Fortune 100 companies and the IT support team is outsourced and your HR rep is a Workday request form?

      The very best advice I got from my informal mentor was to build your internal network from day 1. If you work on a team with someone who seems like a good person to know, maintain that relationship. If someone reaches out to you with questions, share your knowledge freely and graciously. In a huge MegaCorp, it’s valuable to know a person who knows a person who knows a person who may have info you need, and to be known as a person who knows a person AND is willing to make connections. Even hardcore introverts (like me and that mentor) can do this! I’ve been here for a decade now and still happily field requests from people I worked with 4 or 5 teams ago.

      At one point I needed to get a statistics software package. I couldn’t just call IT because we definitely don’t work that way, not that there’s any kind of centralized IT support for this sort of thing. But hey, I used to work with a guy who was in procurement and worked on IT provider contracts. He connected me to someone in IT he thought might have info. She connected me to the team that owned the software, who explained how to request a license. Later on I connected another numbers nerd to the license process.

      It’s those personal connections that help you sidestep the worst of the bureaucracy (and do we ever have one of those entrenched solidly in place).

    4. Nesprin*

      Things will be less urgent and that’s ok- often time red tape is there for a reason in larger institutions.

    5. spcepickle*

      Read the book – From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life.

      It goes into the idea that we need to shift from high level individual contributors to mentors and a different type of leader. Going from small start ups to this huge company it might help you find your niche.

    6. BigCompanies*

      You’ll be expected to stay in your lane a lot more. It can be very confining if you’re used to more leeway/freedom.

      The many layers of management can be baffling, and if can be impossible to figure out hierarchy or how different teams fit together.

      There are usually a lot more rules and some of them are going to seem silly. Someone will always care whether you follow them.

      Every company is different, though, and sometimes you can find pockets of large orgs that act like smaller independent companies in many ways. So some or all of this may wind up being untrue in your specific case.

  30. Alex*

    I’m looking for advice about dealing with a coworker, Gail, who has a disability, but is also hostile and difficult to work with, and I’m trying to thread the needle between being understanding about her disability and not letting her run roughshot over myself and everyone else.

    Gail has severe dyslexia and ADHD. Because of her ADHD, she has permission to work from home 100% of the time when the rest of us have a hybrid schedule. This leads to a lot of information going back and forth through Teams and/or email.

    Gail insists that if anyone has anything to ask her or discuss with her–even really small questions, they set up a meeting with her for a video call because she can’t understand written text. This results in questions for her getting pushed to other people, because people want quick answers, or others needing to take significant time out of their day to find time on her calendar, call, go through the whole “hi, how’s your day, etc.”, to ask her where she stored something. She simply won’t answer questions otherwise.

    Where is the line when it comes to what others need to do to accommodate her disability? She does have screen reading tools and theoretically uses them, but she claims that using them is “exhausting” to her.

    An example of this happened this week, where someone put in the teams chat that they were wondering about a bug in one of her projects, and what the outcome of the issue had been, and she became pretty hostile about the fact that she was asked in Teams, and said “in the future, if you need to ask me about something, set up a call with me, as I can’t follow a conversation on teams because of my dyslexia.”

    Some of the issue is definitely her personality–she is extremely defensive and hostile, and always has an air of ordering people to do things (she is not a manager and does not have any authority over anyone). So some of my bristling at her request probably comes from not actually wanting to talk to her, but I’m wondering what is reasonable? My gut feeling is that she needs to figure out a way to work with short pieces of text using her screenreader or other methods, but that may be my dislike of her personally coming through.

    (As a side note, she is often unresponsive/idle on teams anyway, so no one knows when they will actually get ahold of her. And when you do talk to her, she often talks over you and doesn’t really listen well to what you are trying to say.)

    1. Tio*

      Are you above her in the hierarchy? And do you know what her specific accommodations are?

      WFH I can see, and maybe needing video calls, but unless you have one of those tissue paper bosses, there’s probably room to bring up that these accommodations are affecting business flow if video calls are one of them. Accommodations are meant to be reasonable and not disruptive to business; if she does need video calls there should be a smoother process for getting in touch with her.

      And her not being available is almost certainly not an accommodation, and could probably be brought up directly

    2. Stuart Foote*

      This pretty clearly goes way beyond a reasonable accommodation. Have you tried talking to your manager? If the manager is aware and not planning on doing anything, there isn’t much you can do, besides document everything so that you have an ironclad case if your management ever does decide to do something about Gail.

    3. Ashley*

      This sounds like enough to ask your manager for suggestions because simple questions requiring a meeting would be exhausting to me. Are there ways though for short questions where you can send an audio message?

    4. Katara's side braids*

      As a fellow ADHDer, I can sympathize with Gail to some extent…but only some. The condition affects everyone differently, so I won’t do the “I’m able to manage, so why can’t she?” routine. I also don’t have dyslexia, so can’t speak to the added burden that presents.

      But there is no accommodation that makes it okay to be defensive and hostile, or to add an unreasonable burden onto your team members. That is what Gail is doing by requesting video calls for even the smallest asks, and it makes me wonder if working from home is really helping her as much as it’s meant to. Again, I don’t know her specific situation or needs, but a big tradeoff of remote work is that most communication is asynchronous and written. For some people that’s a dream come true, but for Gail it clearly isn’t – in fact, it’s exacerbating one of the conditions that she needs accommodations for.

      There may be some room for additional fiddling with accommodations. For example, apparently the mobile version of Teams allows you to send voice notes. That would allow her to avoid both written text and the screen reader without scheduling a video call. But it would still be a burden for people who don’t have the mobile client or simply don’t have the time or mental energy to use a completely separate communication method with this one colleague. It’s also possible that no combination of accommodations will allow Gail to do this job in a way that completely neutralizes the effects of her conditions. That’s something I’ve experienced, and it sucks. But it doesn’t mean she gets to make her coworkers’ lives demonstrably harder.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, it’s unfortunate that her two disabilities are in conflict with one another, because it sounds like she would be a lot better off if she were in the office where someone could just say, “Hey, Gail, what’s the deal with that file?” or whatever, but as an ADHDer I sympathize with her need to WFH because office distractions are a LOT for me, as is leaving the house with all the things I need. And I agree with Katara that no matter what accommodations she has, they won’t completely neutralize her disabilities. (How to ADHD has a whole video about how thinking it’s possible to somehow become “normal” when you’re treated for ADHD is a form of ableism, one that many of us ADHDers internalize.)

        That said, I’d say that you should talk to your manager about the other issues, which are that she’s really hard to get ahold of to even schedule a call and ask your manager what to do when you need a quick answer from her but aren’t getting it. Maybe even say that having to do a 15 minute call to get an answer that would take a minute to do over Teams is too much of a burden for the rest of you (an added expense, as it were).

        I’m so curious what it is that Gail does that would require her to never have to do emails or text. My dad is dyslexic and he also can’t email or text, but he’s an engineer who built complex machines and never had to use email at work because he retired before email became ubiquitous. My mom responds to his personal emails these days (she’s a saint). Trying to imagine my dad using Teams now…it would be impossible for him.

        1. Alex*

          The answer as to “what it is that Gail does” is….well, she works in a heavily text-based job and make a boatload of mistakes. We don’t get TONS of email, but our actual work is text-based and extremely detail-oriented. I’m sure it is very challenging for her and a source of a lot of her hostility, defensiveness, and frustration. On the other hand, everyone else is frustrated because we constantly run into work she did that is full of mistakes.

          1. ReasonableAccommodations*

            And that, in of itself, may be a problem. I am legally blind. I have ways to be able to read stuff, but I cannot drive. I am not offered not would I accept jobs where driving is a core task. An infrequent trip somewhere then Uber (or similar) is a reasonable accommodation, but driving cannot be a core requirement of my job. It sounds like extensive reading of text is a core requirement of her job. If so, the company cannot accept an employee incapable of extensive reading of text – that reading could be accomplished by screen reader, by another human reading, or via some adjustment that other employees would not need, but if it cannot ge accomplished to an acceptable level then that person is not capable of holding the job.

          2. Chauncy Gardener*

            Wow. It sure sounds like this job is not playing to her strengths and skills. Can you address it with your manager from that angle?

    5. Justin*

      It’s called a “reasonable” accomodation for a reason.

      This is not reasonable. (I also have ADHD, though not dyslexia.)

    6. Alex*

      Thanks, I appreciate that it doesn’t seem like people think I’m the one being an a-hole here, lol.

      I’m…cautious…about bringing it to my boss. My office has a very strong “we don’t speak poorly about other people” kind of attitude, and I’m worried bringing up my issues with Gail will make me seem difficult and out-of-step with the culture. My boss definitely is aware of these interactions, as he is part of the teams chats on which they occur. I….don’t think he really does anything about it. If she gets coaching/feedback from him about her behavior or interactions or quality of work, I certainly wouldn’t know, as he would never do so publicly.

      The voice message idea is a good one if it is something just between Gail and I, but I can see that getting out of hand in a “chat” scenario with a few different people chiming in.

      1. Tio*

        Can you try to frame it as a “I’m not getting what I need to complete work, what steps should I take to get what I need”? That frames it as a what can I do thing, but the truth that your boss will probably have to answer himself is that you don’t appear to have anything else you can do. It also puts it back on him to solution this, which might force him to admit it isn’t working. And if he does come up with something bonkers, you can say to him then or after you try it once or twice, “It seems like this is adding (time) because (reason). Is this what you want, or should I try something else?”

    7. Girasol*

      When I was WFH we had to either be active in chat or have an announcement up about being AFK until a specific time. When we were present we were obligated to answer chat messages, saying either, “yes I can take a call right now” or “I’m in a meeting until X time and I can call you then.” Rarely we could set “do not disturb” in order to focus on a deliverable with a tight deadline. Could you ask Gail’s boss to set similar expectations? If she is so unavailable that you need to schedule a meeting in advance for a simple question, that seems like an unrealistic accommodation.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Honestly that sounds awful. I’ve been remote since 2020. Depending on what I’m working on, there are times you might not get a response from me for several hours, because I’m focused and deep in solving a problem. When I surface for a break, I’ll check chat and respond.

    8. Unkempt Flatware*

      There’s no way I’d play this game. She’d get voice requests or voicemails from me. “Gail, I need X info by noon, please. Thanks”. Repeat and follow up with an email each time. The third email/voicemail combo would get my boss and her boss cc’d. At the end of each day of doing this, I’d send another VM/email combo recapping the times I tried reaching her for a simple request.

    9. Mimmy*

      I don’t think this is quite what you’re asking, but as someone with knowledge of assistive technology, I want to throw in another angle:

      I’m wondering what about her screen reader software makes it exhausting to use. I’m more familiar with screen readers used by blind individuals, which often have many settings that can be tweaked to the user’s preferences – voice, speed, verbosity, etc. I’m sure tools used by those with dyslexia have similar options. Perhaps tweaking some of these settings will make it less exhausting for her.

    10. Hyaline*

      I’m curious if the accommodation requirement is “must be video calls” or if it’s “can’t be text.” Because there’s a lot of room in between those. Could she work with a voice note/voice mail? I’m curious why she can’t use a screenreader–maybe there are some tools that adapt better to screenreader than others, and she could ask for those to be used. Plenty of messaging tools have voice notes built in, or you could use old fashioned things called “calling on the phone.” Essentially, I find it reasonable to accommodate with something like “Gail has trouble with texts and emails with her dyslexia, but if you call and leave a voicemail, she’ll handle it right away” (and she does in fact handle it right away). I do not find it reasonable to say “Gail can’t do anything but video conferencing and, oh, she’s not very available, good luck!”

      1. Frank Doyle*

        Or a phone call? What about an actual phone call, in real time, no pre-scheduling necessary? I know people don’t like to talk on the phone these days but come ON

        1. Missa Brevis*

          I do see your point but I suspect phone calls would have some of the same problem as video calls – she’s not very available, and you wind up spending time on niceties. Voice mail or voice note are more equivalent to teams messages because they’re still asynchronous.

          1. Jo*

            If you’re calling someone multiple times a day, you don’t need to spend time on niceties anymore.

  31. Attractive Nuisance*

    Tips for dealing with my boss’s negative attitude?

    I work for a small business (my boss is the owner). We work on complex projects that require a lot of coordination with other businesses.

    Within our own office, my boss is a kind and supportive person. But when it comes to our outside collaborators, she’s totally different. She doesn’t have any grace for even the tiniest mistake or miscommunication. She leaves every conference call fuming about how these are all incompetent idiots who have no respect for us and our work.

    This attitude is really dragging me down! I enjoy working with our collaborators. And I generally assume that if a collaborator’s work is in conflict with ours, it’s because we have not adequately communicated what we need from them. (And I’m usually right about that.)

    I’m tired of my boss’s angry rants and I’m tired of the problems caused by her blaming everything on our collaborators. I know this is partly a “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” situation. But I like my job, and as I said, I even mostly like my boss!

    Is there a boss-friendly way to communicate “I get that you’re upset but I’m not going to listen to you complain”? Or “The only real problem here is your piss-poor attitude”?

    1. MsM*

      “You’re always so supportive and understanding with us, it really catches me off guard how reluctant you seem to extend similar grace to our collaborators. Can you help me understand why?”

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Acknowledge that it’s a problem, but try to spin the focus from “they’re idiots” to “this problem is caused by circumstances/situations/systems, not personal malice or incompetence–so how do we fix it?”

      “I know it’s frustrating when the X team does Y, but I feel like it’s a complex situation and they don’t really know that we’re trying to do Z. I wonder if we could maybe institute a weekly touch-base meeting to make sure we’re on the same page with them about stuff, or if there’s another way we could communicate better with them to minimize these kinds of problems.”

    3. Paint N Drip*

      My boss is a big reactor, but we also have a fairly close/friendly relationship. If he’s fuming, I usually try to ask why (even though I totally heard the call/meeting) so he can vent for a second then try to communicate my take (oh, it sounds like they are missing X / huh I wonder if they know about Y / that doesn’t seem quite right, maybe we can call Z to confirm). I realize that’s not gonna work for everyone!!!

      TBH sometimes it just pisses me off and I give him the silent treatment for a bit lol (again! close relationship! don’t get fired following my teenager-eye-roll script)

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        Honestly, right now sometimes my response is to just look at her blankly until she’s done ranting, and then change the subject. I don’t have the energy to pretend I care! And I haven’t been fired yet…

    4. Somehow I Manage*

      I think you could make a suggestion that I heard from a presenter recently. Let your boss know that you can understand that they’re frustrated when there are mistakes. Then suggest that perhaps you (I use the grand “you” here to make it the entire business) need to think about how you’re giving direction because these situations continue to come up. If you can communicate with the collaborators in the way that they pick up on better, the likelihood that mistakes continue will be reduced.

  32. Chartreuse*

    In undergrad, I worked hard to land multiple internships at Huge Prestigious Museum. I thought everything was so exciting— the work! The atmosphere! The challenges and rewards of engaging the public with art! And since I’d interned there before, surely they would hire me…

    Needless to say, I didn’t land a job there after graduation. I ended up at a small organization doing something kind of random and more administrative. But with distance, I’m starting to realize that the environment at Huge Prestigious Museum was toxic and I was in too deep to see it. Everyone hated the administration! People talked about crying at work all the time! There was a culture of bitterness and competition, and I am so glad to be out of there.

    1. lebkin*

      Glad you were able to accidently avoid a bad situation! It is kind of amazing what distance can do to our perceptions.

  33. Busy Middle Manager*

    My job keeps shifting into new directions and getting rid of products and isn’t growing. I am beginning to see the writing on the wall and nothing. Can’t find many jobs to apply to. When I do, I don’t get a response. No one in my network knows of any openings and they’re having similar issues. TBH it was disheartening to see the news yesterday that Q2 US GDP was good because it sure feels like a recession.

    It’s very frustrating having the foresight that things aren’t going well and to try to move and it doesn’t help. That’s why I dislike when people write “I would quit” or “time to get a new job,” because is that really actionable right now? It’s also frustrating when you’re that person who can automate things and code away work but the “market” treats you like you have no skills.

    Hoping someone can relate and has some stories. FWIW I can code and do data visualization stuff, apparently we’re old news now though. I wonder what the issue is. Do companies just now care about results right now? Have they been burned with some bad recent hires? Just not enough work? Also not doing well?

    1. Meh*

      you are NOT old news. not sure if your background is tech or something else, but depending on where /