open thread – September 27, 2024

by Alison Green on September 27, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Arden Windermere*

    Looking for advice on how to disclose my pregnancy to my department at work. I gave birth to my first child in December last year after years of losses and infertility treatments. Through what feels like a miracle, I got pregnant a few months ago without any medical intervention and the pregnancy is healthy and moving along – my husband and I didn’t know this could happen for us! We’re really excited about our second child but I’m not sure how to tell people at work that after being out for 5 months of this year, I’ll be out again for a while in spring. I think I’m also really sensitive about this because when I went to the doctor’s office to get a pregnancy test to confirm, the nurse looked at my baby who was with me and was really judgy about the fact that I was already pregnant again.

    I was so scared about my last pregnancy not working out I never really got to enjoy the idea that a baby was coming. I want to be able to share my joy this time. For context, my work’s culture is very much that we are welcome and invited to share life events like this. I think they thought it was weird last year when I didn’t tell anyone (other than HR and my boss) but I’m afraid if I tell them now they’re going to be judgy like the mean nurse. Any suggestions on how to phrase this that doesn’t involve me yelling “I’m not young and stupid, I’m old and infertile so this is amazing!” would be appreciated.

    1. londonedit*

      I’d lean into your excitement, and say something like ‘I’m really excited to tell you that I’m pregnant again – it was a bit of a surprise, but we’re thrilled!’ People will follow your lead. If they’re judgy to your face, they’re not people whose opinions matter.

      1. sagewhiz*

        This is what my son & d-i-l did…years of IVF, then less than a year later they were pregnant again, and shared it as “a joyful surprise.”

        And I would most definitely say something to your ob/gyn about the judgy nurse! Her attitude was unprofessional and totally uncalled for.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          For SURE say something about the judgy nurse! That behavior is beyond the pale, ESPECIALLY for an ob office!
          Sheesh

        2. Clisby*

          Absolutely. And what is there to be judgy about, anyway? I’m 14 months older than my sister; two of my younger brothers were 13 months apart. There’s nothing weird about this. I mean, I know to you, it seems miraculous, but as far as human biology goes, I can’t see why a nurse, of all people, would be disapproving.

        3. Observer*

          And I would most definitely say something to your ob/gyn about the judgy nurse! Her attitude was unprofessional and totally uncalled for.

          100%

          Especially given your history, which should be part of your medical record. But even without, what on earth!? Beyond inappropriate.

        4. goddessoftransitory*

          Same thing with my sister: two kids with IVF and then her third was a total surprise.

          And yeah, that nurse needs calling out. That attitude has no place anywhere and ESPECIALLY not in a medical setting!

    2. Tio*

      Tell them with excitement! They’ll be happy for you!

      Also, screw that nurse. The exact same thing happened to my best friend – they weren’t careful because it took years for them to get pregnant the first time – and I get the feeling this is not uncommon. They were thrilled and so were their health care team and their jobs.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        yeah that nurse can stuff it! She works in OB she must have seen this before. Its not that unusual for people to have kids close together. sometimes it happens. I also wonder if it has something to do with class/race.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Sometimes it happens – and sometimes it’s intentional! I certainly have friends who wanted their kids to be close in age.

          Whatever the reason (and your wonderings make sense), this nurse sucks. Please don’t let her bring you down, OP! Be excited!

      2. Funko Pops Day*

        Yep, I have a friend who is an MD married to an MD who got pregnant while still out on maternity leave from her 1st (who was conceived after years of fertility issues). This happens to so many people!

      3. Artemesia*

        Sometimes a successful pregnancy resets things. It took us two years to conceive our son and we actually had fertility drugs in hand if we had not got him when we did. It took one evening to conceive our daughter when we decided to try again.

        1. HBJ*

          This is what I was going to say. Certainly, for many people, this is not the case. But there are plenty of women for whom that first pregnancy does something to their hormones and changes things in all sorts of ways. I’ve heard of many persistent hormonal issues being resolved after a pregnancy.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Sometimes a pregnancy isn’t even required! I was adopted after years of trying by my mom and dad, and then my mom conceived my younger sister about fifteen seconds after they brought me home.

            2. Beth**

              I know a couple of people who had this happen. One was a direct report. She took about 15 months of leave (about half paid and half unpaid) and by the time she came back to work she was pregnant. She was back for about 6 months and then took another similar amount of time.

              The bio mom of her adoptive son also got pregnant again around the same time and the adoption authorities contacted her to see if she wanted to adopt her son’s bio half sister. But she decided 3 children under 2 was more than she was ready for.

        2. allathian*

          Congratulations, OP!

          You should definitely tell your ob/gyn office about the judgy nurse, her behavior’s totally uncalled for.

          One of my friends struggled with infertility in her late 30s. After several tries, she had an IVF baby, and she was still on maternity leave with her firstborn when she conceived again without any interventions. Her first was born in January and her second in week 35 or 36 in December, and her kids were in the same grade, although not in the same class, at school (cutoff is the calendar year, we’re in Finland). My friend went on to have a third kid a couple years later, also conceived without any interventions.

          Conceiving without any interventions seems really common after IVF, it’s as if the pregnancy hormones kick the reproductive system into gear somehow.

          I wish you an easy and uncomplicated pregnancy.

    3. WellRed*

      Is it really that uncommon for pregnancy in quick succession? In the stone ages, I was one of many who was barely a year apart from sibling in age. Congratulations.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        These days it definitely is. I know a lot of people who purposely plan four or more years in between their kids so that they’re only paying for daycare for one child at a time because it’s so prohibitively expensive. Two to three years in between seems most common, based admittedly on my own anecdata of the people I know.

        1. bamcheeks*

          Two to three years is recommended in many places as the least likely to cause injury to the pregnant person! Having pregnancies closer together than 2 years puts a lot more stress on your body, because some things won’t have quite healed from the last go-around.

          But that is obviously not a reason to be anything other than delighted when someone shares news of a happy pregnancy with a smaller gap!

          1. Observer*

            Two to three years is recommended in many places as the least likely to cause injury to the pregnant person!

            And it’s almost certainly not based on any data. Even with *c-sections* – where are actually talking about a surgical incision, a lot of the recommendations are not based on data, but “assumptions”.

            Not that it really matters, in this context. I *totally* agree with you that the only appropriate response, from an OB nurse no less! is delight.

      2. JFC*

        I’ve seen different families approach it differently. Some want to only have one child in daycare at a time because of the expense, so they’ll wait three or four years in between children. Others know how many kids they want and prefer them to be closer in age so they can bond. It can also be easier on some parents to do rounds of everything once (like potty training, school milestones, etc.), so they have kids in quick succession. It’s just a matter of personal preference and biology. Of course, there are always surprises! I know several families with two or three teenagers and then they had a surprise baby who is now just starting elementary school.

        1. Zephy*

          My stepbrother was in the Navy, so he and his wife decided to have all the kids they were going to as quickly as possible while she had access to his good health insurance through the military. The result is two daughters born 367 days apart.

      3. Another Kristin*

        I wouldn’t call it COMMON, because the first year of your baby’s life is not usually a time when you have much time for or interest in sex, but it certainly happens. I met a woman once who had twins when her first was only 11 months old! Can you imagine?

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I heard about a woman who went in for her six week post birth checkup and found out she was pregnant again!

          1. allathian*

            It always amazes me that anyone would be interested in sex that soon after a vaginal birth, or even after a c-section, given the state of the abdominal muscles afterwards.

            I didn’t allow my husband to touch me *at all* until our son had weaned himself at 3.5 months. He was born full-term but underweight and got donated milk in NICU and formula at home because he wasn’t allowed to lose any of his birth weight. No sex until 6 months after the birth. Luckily my husband wanted to be a dad more than I ever wanted to be a mom, so he dealt with it.

        2. EllenD*

          I worked with a woman whose older brother was exactly one year older than her and her twin brother. While it simplified birthday parties, I can’t imagine how hard it was raising 3 so close in age. They’re still close as adults.

      4. Reluctant Mezzo*

        All three of us were stair steps (breast feeding does not always work as contraception). I suspect either Mom or Dad had Stuff Done to close the playpen.

        1. allathian*

          It pretty much never does work. The only time it has any chace of working is if you’re basically carrying the baby all the time and letting the baby decide when to eat, even if it’s at 15-minute intervals. Obviously this isn’t an option for working moms in the US.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I know someone who has kids born similarly close together and unfortunately I don’t think there’s a way to stop the judgy comments (which you’d get even if they were two, three, four years apart, let’s be real) because they are going to come regardless. All you can do is talk about how excited you are for the pregnancy and hope that people take a hint.

      That said, if you live somewhere with pregnancy/post-pregnancy benefits that require you to work a certain amount of time in between pregnancies before claiming them, I’d look into what those are and hold off on letting anyone know if there’s a chance those could be jeopardized by announcing earlier rather than later.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, unfortunately the judgy comments are pretty much guaranteed whatever you do. That said, judgy comments from medical professionals like the judgy nurse are unacceptable.

    5. Reindeer Hut Hostess*

      Do your colleagues know you struggled so much prior to the first successful pregnancy? If so, I don’t see how they could be anything other than super-excited for you! I love the “joyful surprise” approach already mentioned.

      Side note: I’m 14 months younger than my sister, and we have always been close. I wish the same for your two little ones.

    6. Anon Like Whoa*

      Unfortunately, you can’t control other peoples’ responses to this, especially if they are expected to pick up work or cover for you. A coworker recently went through a rough pregnancy and then an extended maternity leave and it was really hard on the people who spent the pregnancy covering for her and then for her maternity leave. If she were to get pregnant again in quick succession, I wouldn’t be thrilled, knowing how much work I’d have to absorb going forward, especially since I picked up a bunch of work that will just have to keep, even after she returned- apparently, she was unprepared for how much extra work a second child is in addition to the first.

      So, while I would be happy for her personally if she had another baby, as I know she’d like a big family, I wouldn’t be thrilled over all.

      1. Carol the happy*

        Congratulations!
        Unless you’re in a medical field, I’d use the words, “Residual Fertility Treatment hormones in my body. Isn’t it amazing?”

        If anyone says, “What? You’re pregnant again?” get a little gushy/ teary, and respond with, “Oh, yes! Isn’t it wonderful? We had such a hard time having the first one, and I really didn’t dream there could be another baby, especially so soon!
        THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN about it being safe for me, but my Doctor is keeping a close eye on my condition. He/She congratulated me on how well I’m doing and how lucky we are!”
        You can also be delighted that being so close in age, your children will be close.
        Then express wistfully that these babies may be the only children you can have.
        If you completely ignore the judginess of idiots, (acting as if they’re delighted for you, but they’re worried that this will be hard or dangerous for you) they will be undercut by your happiness, but you’re so thrilled, that you ascribe gracious concern to their bad manners.

        I would also invent a “crisis” at some point, where you have to take a week of medical treatment and bedrest. This is the time to twist the knife in the judgiest people’s hearts. Do this while you’re propping your feet, and binge- watching favorite TV. “We had a scare. It was so terrifying, but the doctors say it’s going to be fine. MeanJoanne and TerribleTrudy were so concerned about me, and for the baby’s health – would you thank them for their good wishes and concern, and tell them I’m going to be fine?”

        As Grandma always said, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar- but if you really want flies, use shit!!”

          1. Ellis Bell*

            You wouldn’t take this approach with everyone but I can honestly see this working with the very very judgy people described who are oh so “concerned”. The only thing to be done is to out-talk and out-tone them.

            1. Bella Ridley*

              Regardless of how judgy or tsk-y other people in the office were, if I found out one of my staff members had faked a medical crisis to take a week off, pregnancy-related or not, I would enact disciplinary action.

              1. Ellis Bell*

                Wow, you’re right; that was a massive miss on my part. Way too flippant a joke for the circumstances.

          1. Carol the happy*

            I’m so sorry, that was meant as a joke, but with medical emergency as a real possibility.
            Our bodies are designed for the rigors of reproduction, but that’s more to continue the species than to ensure maternal health.
            There are health issues most people don’t realize, though, and they need time to adequately heal.
            I had Diastasis Rectus, divided abdominal muscles. This is common, especially with non-athletic, or short stature, or twins and above, or “Elderly Prima Gravida”, meaning over 35 at first pregnancy. (that’s an old term, now it’s Advanced Maternal Age, the “AMA Mama” which is medically true, but still somehow really, really depressing. I was 27 and told I was a bit old for a first baby, in 1986….) I was short, 4’10”, first husband was 6’2″, and the sit-ups I did faithfully in the 1980s didn’t strengthen the abdominal core, plus after delivery, continuing them (faithfully!) actually made the diastasis worse. My second pregnancy was 3 months later, and at 6 months along, I developed a serious hernia over 2 days, that could be seen under my clothes. Belly banding, eventual bedrest, and delivery at 34 weeks with a zipper c-section. and a “tummy tuck”. (nah, it’s not just cosmetic removal of baby fat, it’s repositioning of important muscles.)
            It’s better now than in 1985, but “normal” pregnancy still depletes a mother, body and mind. Socially, we’re still polarized about women, pregnancy, and “working outside the home”. No two women have identical pregnancies, some sail through it, and some seem to because they must- and promotions can depend on maintaining perception.

            Again, I’m sorry that I sounded so cavalier about work. That actually fed into the whole working mommy mythos that I loathe. Sincerely, congratulations to OP, and good luck with the clueless….

        3. Seashell*

          Telling people in person will put them on the spot, so better to do it via email/text/Slack if possible in case they have personal reasons not to be thrilled, such as their fertility treatment not working out so well. It also gives the person the option to wait a couple of minutes and not say the first thing that pops into their head, like “Better you than me!”

          1. Kalidan*

            What? No. Why should everyone else’s lack of enthusiasm, or prior experiences, come first?

            What an odd take.

      2. Hazel*

        This is yet another argument for real mat leaves – if it’s say a year, you hire someone to cover. It’s often an opportunity for another star person to grow. Please resist the resentment thing – I get it, but you wouldn’t resent a sick person, and it leans towards mysogyny.

        2. Boof*

          Yes – government will have to pay for that though, it just doesn’t make sense to expect employers to cover everyone’s life events potentially for years of not working, and in the places that offer extended leaves the government is paying the extra salary

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      “I wanted to let you know that much to my surprise (and delight), I’m expecting another baby this spring!” Anyone who’s judgmental about your delightful surprise is just a cantankerous jerk. If they have Opinions, hopefully they will be grown-up enough to keep them to themselves and be kind to you.

    8. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Some people might be weird about it, but you shouldn’t let that stop you from sharing and expressing your own joy. Other people’s feelings about your life and choices are really none of your concern, so share your news the way you want to, and be intentional about not internalizing their reactions. Congratulations on your happy news, and best wishes to your family.

    9. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      I don’t really have any advice but congratulations!!! I hope the mean, judging ones can at least keep it to themselves!

    10. Lifelong student*

      Tell everyone you are happy that help you got for the first pregnancy created the ability for you to have Irish Twins. For those who might not know- that means siblings born within a twelve month time span! Maybe less common these days but has been a cause for extra celebration in the not far distance past.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Yeah, I’ve only ever heard this term used in a derogatory way (and in this case, OP’s kids aren’t going to be born within a twelve month period anyway, so it’s inaccurate to boot).

      2. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t use that term, but I’m thinking of a guy I knew in college. His younger brother was visiting; it was his birthday, and it was the one month out of the year that they were the same age. Adam: “Our parents thought it wasn’t possible to get pregnant while the mother was still breastfeeding.” Barry: “Hi!”

    11. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      I should add, people are going to have Opinions either way: the number of kids, how close or far apart your kids are, the genders, if you did IVF or didn’t, what kind of IVF, why not try X instead, that you’re having kids at all, are you going to learn the gender before the baby is born, if you have 2 boys will you “keep trying for a girl ” (or vice versa), how long will you work during and after the pregnancy, wait you’re working at all while pregnant, daycare or in-laws or nanny, etc etc.

      The best thing to do is remember that it’s not about you, it’s about them and whatever is going on in their brain that makes them not keep their mouth shut. That’s obviously easier said than done, especially when pregnancy hormones really kick in. But it’s okay to just give them a “get bent” smile and go about your business.

    12. Seashell*

      Unless the nurse said something specific, maybe she was thinking “I could never survive 2 babies so close together! Poor lady!”

      I’d go with telling your co-workers by email. Responses are more likely to be pleasant if they have time to think about them.

      1. Kalidan*

        Okay, again, what? How do other people come first here? That’s oddly, overly invested in what other people think.

      2. Observer*

        I’d go with telling your co-workers by email. Responses are more likely to be pleasant if they have time to think about them.

        That seems like a really weird take to me. People who are going to be judgy are not going to stop being judgy just because they had a chance to think about it.

        Also, I really, really think that it’s perfectly reasonable to expect functional adults to actually act like functional adults. And even if someone has a less than positive reaction it would be *really* off to let that come out of their mouths. If their reaction is SO strong that it’s going to overcome all normal behavior or they simply don’t get that their expressing their negativity is inappropriate, email is not likely to change that anyway, of course. But I see no reason for anyone to actually worry about that. If you work with adults, you can expect them to act like adults. And know that people who don’t act like adults are not your problem.

        Lastly, the idea that anyone needs to act like this is *problematic* piece of information that must be *carefully* broken to people who might react with great fragility is extremely odd. It’s far more likely to invite negative reactions because you are telegraphing that something is wrong. Whereas a normal “I’m so excited by this unexpected news” in a normal context is an expression of excitement. And (normal, reasonable) people will follow your signals.

    13. Falling Diphthong*

      If your office tilts older, you may find that “So we thought we couldn’t get pregnant without intervention, and that’s why this second kid is spaced so close” elicits “Been there” or “My friend had that too.”

    14. Ellis Bell*

      If you don’t want to share your fertility journey, just throw all the positive words you have at it : “I am really excited to share the news that our second child is due in X month. Obviously we are completely thrilled at this addition to our family”. I wouldn’t even mention the closeness to your other pregnancy; only complete weirdos are going to be noticing, much less judging, the gap between your kids. Adults should really know by now that kids come when they happen to come, and not on a designated delivery day. If you do want to share your fertility journey, find someone in the office with good judgement and great relationships with everyone and say this: “I was so scared about my last pregnancy not working out I never really got to enjoy the idea that a baby was coming. I want to be able to share my joy with everyone this time”. Also, congratulations!!! Boooo to that nurse for raining on your very exciting parade.

    15. Goldenrod*

      “I think I’m also really sensitive about this because when I went to the doctor’s office to get a pregnancy test to confirm, the nurse looked at my baby who was with me and was really judgy about the fact that I was already pregnant again.”

      Um, WTF?? There’s nothing weird or wrong about that! That nurse has some issue that has nothing to do with you. I’m sure your co-workers will be happy for you!!

      (And this is coming from someone who doesn’t have and never wanted kids. But I’m happy for you too! Congrats!)

    16. June First*

      Isn’t it amazing how pregnancy brings out the biggest personalities and opinions?

      Congrats on your wonderful surprise, OP.

    17. Bess*

      Visible pregnancy is one of those wonderful times when people feel free to say and share whatever opinions and judgments they have of you, no matter what you are or aren’t doing. So I would base how you present it on how YOU want to share your news (particularly on whether or not your baby was planned, that’s such a private detail that shouldn’t be public domain). Congratulations on your lovely surprise!

    18. Arden Windermere*

      Thank you for all your wonderful and supportive comments <3 I really appreciate everyone's advice. I'm really excited and hoping to share that using the strategy of saying as many positive things about this as I can, hoping people take my lead, and then ignoring anyone with Opinions.

    19. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

      Yes, definitely tell someone at the doctor’s office/medical group/wherever about what the nurse said. Was part of what she said an assumption that you were under 21, or even under 18? Because I’m thinking of an anecdote from another forum. Paraphrased:

      “I had my first child when I was 25, but to some people, I looked about 16. During my pregnancy, some medical person didn’t ask any questions, just launched right into ‘Who’s going to take care of this child?’ And before I could even say, ‘Uh, my husband and me?’ she starts in about foster care, and she can give me some pamphlets and the name of a website, and I wouldn’t have to give the kid up forever… I waited until she started writing down the website, and then I gave her A Look and said, ‘My HUSBAND and I have no need of foster care, thank you.’ She is sooo lucky that I couldn’t walk fast, because by the time I got to the front desk, I had calmed down *just enough*…”

      So yeah, tell the doctor, or the chief nurse or whoever, and be sure to add that it’s not about just you. It would be equally bad if she mistook a teenager for a twenty-something, and started blithely asking, “Is your husband happy about this?” Also, fer gosh sakes, your date of birth should have been on a form or chart or something that she was supposed to look at. Should have at least made sure of your age before offering “advice”.

    21. Love to WFH*

      This happened to a friend of mine after trying for 7 years to conceive (this was before IVF was available.) It happens! It’s great!

  2. Software tracking and name changes*

    Senior employees, how do you keep track of all the software products you have used over the years? An Excel sheet, a Word doc, something more advanced? It’s too much to list everything on every resume, and it doesn’t all apply.

    I was asked recently if I had experience using Azure DevOps, and it was a deal-breaker that I didn’t. (The job description didn’t mention it, so I was unprepared for the question.) But I did some research later and apparently it used to be called Visual Studio Team Services, which I HAVE used! I just didn’t know it had been bought out or had the name changed. I was so pissed.

    Further investigation showed that other programs I used in old jobs have also changed names. I use 20+ pieces of software at a company, multiplied by decades of experience. I can’t keep track of all this crap! And on resumes, do I list the name from when I used it, the new name, or both?

    I realize this is multiple questions, but I’m so frustrated because a name change is such a stupid reason to lose a chance at a role.

    1. Arden Windermere*

      Oof. I hadn’t even thought of this, so thank you for bringing it up! I only know of one software that I worked on that changed names, so I usually mention it in interviews as “Shopatron, now known as Kibo”. I think an Excel sheet would probably be a good idea, and then maybe set a calendar reminder once a quarter to do a quick check and see if the company has changed names.
      Super annoying you missed out on a job because of a name change!

    2. Clinical Informaticist & DB developer*

      There are some key differences between Azure DevOps and VSTS although there is also a lot of overlap. However, if this was rated as a dealbreaker, they probably wanted more recent experience.
      I think it is always helpful if faced in an interview with a platform I do not recognize to speak to the types of platforms I have worked with that are similar to what they are trying to do. In this case, you could have talked about your VSTS work and they might immediately recognize the connection. Does that make any sense?

      1. ampersand*

        Sort of related: I once listed Atlassian Suite on my resume for a position I ended up being interviewed for, and when I talked about using Jira in the interview, the interviewers were surprised I had experience with Jira because they didn’t connect it to Atlassian on my resume.

        That’s how I learned it’s important to be as specific as possible on my resume—so now I write out all the programs/software/portals I’ve used. I think doing that plus talking about specific software in interviews should cover most bases.

      2. Quinalla*

        This! I’ve talked about similar software that I’ve used when a question like this came up. Sometimes it is still a deal breaker as it likely would have been here, but I don’t keep a list anywhere as folks are usually interested in software you are currently using (or at least very recent) which are things I can remember. If you have just a ton of software where you might forget names, a list seems worthwhile to keep.

    3. Pay no attention...*

      If it’s been long enough since I used the software that I didn’t know it had changed names, or it was software that I only used a few times a year or less, I wouldn’t list it on my resume at all. I would only list software that I currently and frequently use. If a job is make-or-break on a particular software that I haven’t used in years, it’s not the job for me. For example, I have a passing knowledge of Excel because it’s not something I use except to view or extract information I need — I would never list Excel use on my resume.

      To keep track of software I use, I suppose I would keep that list on my master resume, that then gets tailored for the positions I would apply to.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Yes, this. Unless it was a recent name change, which the interviewers would probably be aware of, not knowing the name changed probably means the experience is outdated. That doesn’t mean it’s not valuable or worth talking about, just that it’s not necessarily as relevant as you’d want it to be.

    4. cactus lady*

      I actually don’t list anything I haven’t used in over 3 years, or that I hated using and never want to again. If it’s something that has had a name change, it’s likely had other operational changes that I wouldn’t have experience with. In the past I listed the software I used by role (I’m in a non-technical role).

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I think my only exception to the 3 year rule, which I think is a good one, is if you’re really good at learning new software or really good at picking things up where you left off several years earlier. There’s a software we use at work that I haven’t personally used in a decade, but I had to help a colleague who was a daily user (!) with something on it and I was surprised how much I remembered — enough to complete a complicated task that most regular users struggle with, but somehow I could still do it without issue.

    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is Visual Studio Team Services on your resume, or is it something you leave off that you would have been happy to talk about had you known it was now called Azure DevOps?

      I think if you list it, it’s probably worth double checking the software’s name/existence as you polish the rest of your resume during your job hunting process. And if you do list it, you can update it to say “Visual Sutdio Team Services (now Azure Dev Ops)” or something that conveys it was something moderately different when you used it.

    7. Procedure Publisher*

      I have experience with. The content management system that I used had a HTML editor. That editor was replaced because it is no longer made and was based on Java. The company that made the editor had a name change. So I refer to the new editor more than the older one.

      The content management system used to be known by a different name when it was made by a different vendor. The system is also not going to be used any more because vendor was only supporting it for my former employer. Because of that knowledge, I refer to this system by its generic name (content management system). If I need to refer to the editor, I call it an HTML editor or a WYSIWYG editor.

    8. Hazel*

      Good question – but also stupid employers – if it is a dealbreaker it goes in the job call, then you have time to assess if you have it or something close. You don’t hit people like this in an interview, it’s bait and switch.

    9. Speak*

      I program machinery and have used a large number of different controllers on these machine in my 25+ years of experience. I typically only list the major brand we used in my work duties per job, but I also call out the minor brands and even the one offs I did in my experiences section. As I get older, I am realizing how out of date some of that software now is, but experience with Brand A is still relevant even if it was in version 2.0 and now they are up to version 20+ because the basics don’t change even if the buttons you once used on the main screen are now no longer shown on the main screen and have gone to a ribbon and hidden behind 3 clicks.
      So I don’t keep a list anywhere but on my current resume.

    10. fhqwhgads*

      I think you might be thinking about it a little wrong. It’s not just a matter of “have used over the years”. The stuff on your resume should really be products you’re very familiar and comfortable with. I get that you’re frustrated because it’s the same thing but changed names, but from a hiring perspective, if that software is that critical to the role, and you’ve not used it recently enough to know about the name change (or aren’t working on stuff that would keep you in a space where you’d know that product changed names), your experience with the software may be out of date enough that it’s still disqualifying. I’m not saying it definitely is. Some stuff gets bought and renamed and doesn’t change much at all. But I am saying, from the hiring end, it can be reasonable that “you didn’t even know it’s called X now” is as disqualifying as “never used it”. It depends on why they’re requiring the experience.
      Someone who uses it all the time, every day, right now, is probably going to seem like a stronger candidate than someone who used it however long ago under OldName. So you’re not really losing out because of a name change. You’re losing out because the experience is potentially too old to be relevant.

    11. Qwerty*

      Feature and workflows change more frequently than names. If I don’t know about a new name, then I’m out of the loop enough that my experience is not that strong. There were a lot of changes during the evolution from Team Foundation Server to Visual Studio Team Service to Azure DevOps, just as there will continue to be more when/if ADO merges with GitHub into a new product

      When asked about a software or technology I’m unfamiliar with, I usually ask for a reminder about what it does and then talk about similar technologies that I have used to solve the problems this role uses that tech for. I’m also pretty transparent about when I last used each tech, because stuff changes. A change to Jira a couple years ago tranformed me from an expert to fast-learning novice practically overnight.

      You didn’t lose the role because of a name change, but by not demonstrating experience in an aspect of the job and possibly for not recognizing common tools in the industry. Which is fixable! The latter depends on your role – someone with extensive experience in DevOps or Software Eng should be familiar enough to recognize ADO and talk about what similar tools they used, but a Business Analyst wouldn’t have that expectation. A Project Manager would be expected to recognize Jira but not Height because one is well known in the industry and the other has a small user base.

      From a personal perspective, it would be more beneficial to research common tools and software and know how to highlight your experience in use cases they accomplish than to keep a longer list of tech. If they use ADO for sprint management, then it’s more about knowing how to talk about how you run your sprints and what tools you use to accomplish that. Similar for if they were referencing code management, deployments, test plans, etc. If you are in tech – learn what Azure is since Visual Studio and Azure are both flagship Microsoft products such that you’ll want your brain to automatically respond to “Azure ABC” with “is that similar to “

    12. HD*

      What would be really relevant here is whether you’ve used similar products. Maybe you haven’t used Azure DevOps itself, but you have used Jira for project management or GitHub for version control, which is functionally very similar experience. If you didn’t know what ADO is, what it does, or what products do the same thing, that would actually be a red flag in some contexts.

    13. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      You’re not going to like this answer, but if you haven’t used something often enough or recently enough to remember when asked about it, you probably shouldn’t say you have experience with it. Software changes fast and five-year-stale experience isn’t going to be useful in most cases.

  3. Always the Bridesmaid*

    Fellow jobseekers (and hiring managers), how competitive is the job market right now, really? Some internet forums would have you believe that we’re in the second Great Depression, but they can be a bit dramatic and I trust this commentariat’s judgement more. 

    I have been applying to jobs at a slow to moderate pace for the last 6 months (I have a job so it’s not an urgent job search). So far, I’ve interviewed with 7 companies, making it to at least second round interviews with all of them, and have been in 4 final round interviews, but I haven’t received any offers. So I’m trying to gauge if I need to shake up my resume/interview style or if I’m just dealing with a particularly competitive market. 

    For what it’s worth, I work in marketing which is a competitive field in the best of times.  
      

    1. Glazed Donut*

      I’ve found it’s very competitive right now, especially for people who hold college degrees and are looking for work that compensates them for their degree(s) and experience.

    2. BoratVoiceMyWife*

      you’re the exception, not the rule. I’m also in marketing, I’m employed but have been applying for a solid year, and I’ve had maybe three final-round interviews in that span. no offers. I apply for multiple roles a day. the market is worse than I’ve seen it in 10 years.

    3. Tio*

      It’s fairly competitive, from what I hear from my friends. Two have been job searching for months at this point, and both are professionals with good work histories.

    4. Tradd*

      If you are open to being in office, that should open you up to more positions. I have friends in accounting and finance who are only considering fully remote positions. They are unemployed and having difficulty finding what they want. Of course, employers could always change something remote to in office.

    5. Nicosloanica*

      This always varies so much by field I don’t know that it’s that useful. Personally, I’m seeing a lot of good jobs (paying well, more than in previous job searches) in my field, but I think it’s quite competitive because I’m not getting as much followup as I have in the past. I think certain fields are quite compressed, like some sectors in tech.

    6. the BeaureBar*

      I’m 3 weeks into my hunt with 2 weeks left on my contract, so not too deep into the weeds yet, but from the creative field it seems really competitive. My specialty isn’t as big as it once was but it certainly hasn’t died off like the tech sector thinks, it just takes a while for positions to open up. But I might need to bite the bullet and learn UI/UX [which doesn’t have nearly the same personal fulfillment] or otherwise lean into a totally different direction.

      It doesn’t help that creative jobs are so badly written, it seems like everyone wants a single Sr Designer who can do motion, 3d, web, email marketing, brand guides, digital ads, and print collateral for events, and hash out client needs as a detail-oriented self-starter who is collaborative but comfortable working independently.

    7. Anon for this*

      Dang, you’re doing better than I am; I’m realizing I’ve been lied to by management for three years and nothing in my position is going to change, and have been sending applications sporadically for the past ~6months (have a job, it’s not great, but not urgent to find anything). I’ve only gotten desk rejections; no calls, no interviews, nada, just “we have decided to pursue other candidates”)

    8. HigherEdSurvivor*

      We just had a mid-level position (Assistant Director of Communications, team of 2) posted for 2 weeks and had over 150 candidates. That is nearly double what we had when we posted the same position in 2021. The quality of the candidates were also much more competitive where this would be a step back for quite a few that we screened.

      I work in HR for a School within a large University for context.

      1. DataGirl*

        My 20- year old has applied to more than 50 jobs in the last few months, 3 interviews, no offers. She’s only going for entry level stuff but it seems like “no one is hiring” is not inaccurate.

    9. Justin*

      I work in curriculum development for a nonprofit, but we pay well and have a well known good workplace that is hybrid and can be fully remote (the person I hired chose hybrid but it was her choice).

      I got 600 applicants over a month (though I’d chosen the people for the HR screen by the time we got to 300), 14 to HR screen, 7 to hiring manager interview, 3 to final panel, 1 offer/acceptance (she starts Monday).

    10. Ama*

      I’m a full time freelancer and only looking for PT contract work to supplement my main business, so my experience is a little different, but it seems to me like in the freelance/contract area there are so few well-written job descriptions out there that anything actually seems feasible for both the pay rate and the work needed is very competitive. Meanwhile the employers that post jobs that pay $600 a month for what they say is 10-20 hours of work but list a set of duties that would be a lot for a full time job are out here wondering why they can’t get anyone with the right skills and experience to apply.

    11. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it’s definitely tough (I’m not seeing anything I would even be interested in let alone qualified for), but I’m with you on some of the exaggeration, if only because I’ve seen people say “I’ve applied for a thousand jobs in the last two months.” There are very few of us whose experience is so broad that there are a thousand jobs out there that we could reasonably do, so I do wonder how many people are really bad at applying for jobs (either applying for stuff they don’t have the experience for, not writing a cover letter that explains their transferable skills to a new sector, following bad TikTok advice, etc.).

      Like you, if folks in this community are having a tough time, I do put more weight on that because I know people here know how to apply for jobs and interview.

    12. Can't Sit Still*

      My department normally takes 6-8 months to fill positions, but we have been easily filling positions lately. These are highly skilled technical positions that are normally impossible to fill without doing a literal global search, but we have been able to hire locally lately.

    13. Blue Pen*

      I don’t know if this exactly answers your question, but I also work in marketing and communications at a large university; I’m not looking for a new position for myself, but when I go to check on similar positions for friends interested in making a move, the first thing I notice is how slim pickings there are right now. I would say, compared to last year, there’s a quarter the amount of marketing and communications jobs listings, making those that are available all the more competitive. A friend of mine is a graphic designer, and she’s been looking for a job here for at least a year but can’t break through. So yeah, I do think it’s pretty rough.

    14. Golden*

      I think biotech is pretty tough right now, particularly on the lab side. I’ve seen a small uptick in recruiters reaching out to me (I’m on the clinical development side), but have quite a few former colleagues still experiencing layoffs.

      1. Dandylions*

        Can confirm. I was applying this summer and never even got interviewed for some internal roles I was a great fit for (analysis and data scientist side). I was able to get answers from the HMs though.

        I applied on day 4 of the posting so was not even considered. Because on day 1 they received 1,200 application and of those ~200 were passed onto the on day 2. They only reviewed the first 50 of those, found 5 people worth interviewing and hired one of them.

    15. DivergentStitches*

      It sounds like your resume is on point if you’re getting this many interviews. Getting to final rounds means you’re interviewing well. It’s just a tough market right now, so you’re probably being edged out by someone with slightly more experience. 99.9999% of the time it’s not personal!

      I work in payroll integrations and have been looking around for 6 months and have only had a small handful of first screening interviews. I’m even struggling to find opportunities internally at a large company.

    16. Generic Name*

      From the hiring side in the construction and engineering industry, it is very, very difficult to find upper and mid-level candidates. We’ve had senior level job postings in the US and Canada open for like 6 months, and we’ve interviewed 3 people in Canada, and 3 people in the US. I don’t know how many applicants total applied, but it was a struggle to find people qualified enough to interview. We will likely be posting some entry level positions in a few months, so we’ll see how that goes. We are very flexible with our requirements for entry-level candidates. They don’t necessarily have to have a related degree, as long as they have some kind of degree and show an aptitude and drive for learning our type of work. Prior experience is not required either.

      1. CheerfulGinger*

        Also in the engineering industry. Senior level means around 10 to 15 years of experience. What was happening 10 or 15 year ago? 2008, a serious economic depression. All those entry-level engineers never got hired. My theory is that the industry has a serious “hole” at the 10 to 15 year experience level.

        1. Lana Kane*

          This is a really interesting point. Food for thought on how we might think we’ve moved past certain events, but their effects reverberate for many years.

      2. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        I’m curious about the entry level work. If it doesn’t require a specific degree, just any degree, why have the requirement? Would a degree in art history really make a person more qualified than someone who spent an equal amount of time in the military, or working a civilian job? The “any old degree will do, just have one” requirement eliminates too many people of certain economic classes and minorities.

    17. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I have specialities in HR/DEI/Culture so my job is fairly in demand right now. I was only out of work for like a month in my most recent transition. But I know a lot of skilled people who have never had trouble before and have been looking for over a year. It depends a lot on your industry, your level, your geography – your luck, frankly. I think different people are having very different experiences right now, but overall it’s a tough market.

    18. Crochet*

      I heard from an ex-colleague that his new company (in the tech sector) had over 1000 applications for one technical writing position.
      I think that in some sectors, the job market is very competitive right now.

    19. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      As others have said, I think it really varies. The recruiters who have reached out to me on LinkedIn are all in the financial services industry, and I see many of the same customer-facing jobs repeatedly posted on Indeed (especially call centers!). On the other hand, the library job I applied to on Wednesday was posted for less than 24 hours.

    20. KnittingattheBallpark*

      I am in safety/risk management and just recently started a new job (about a month ago) after looking for nearly 9 months. I was being picky but probably applied to over 50 positions. I got a ton of screening calls, escalated to final interview stage about 5-6 times. I got three offers. One was far too low on salary, the other was only very slightly low on salary but the vibes were off, and I accepted the third offer. Over the 9 months, I saw the number of listings decrease significantly, especially for mid-level positions.

    21. Excel Gardener*

      I’m in business/systems/data analytics, and it definitely seems pretty competitive right now, especially for entry level and early-mid-level positions. The exception is if you have 7+ years of experience or experience in certain hot skills there are more positions, but for the average SQL/Excel/Python analyst with 2-5 years experience like me it’s not great. It feels like a lot of positions are looking for the proverbial purple unicorn. Luckily I have a stable job at a big company so I’m not actively looking right now.

    22. Quinalla*

      It does vary a lot by what field you are in, tech is very tight right now for example. For me, I am not actively looking, but for the past several years, I was getting A LOT of headhunters/recruiters hitting me up on linked-in, even tracking down my email/phone and reaching out seeing if I was interested in a new job. In the last ~6 months, that has slowed way, way down. So my market (design for construction) has definitely cooled a lot recently. It was pretty hot for a while there, feels more like normal or maybe even on the cool side now.

    23. Noodles*

      My partner, who works at a tech company but not at a technical job, has found it extremely difficult to find a new job, as have their colleagues. Lots of people are trying to leave these companies that are going full time back to office and also laying people off. Barely any interviews and no offers, despite networking, following all the advice, etc. Literally 1000s of applicants for jobs. All these companies over-hired on tech, and now that they’re laying everyone off, there’s nowhere to go.

    24. Qwerty*

      It varies a ton by field and experience level. In my field of software engineering, I’d say its very competitive for junior and mid-level roles. However, most local companies I know are struggling to find qualified senior engineers.

      My recommendation for job seekers is to zoom out and look at the trends over the past few years. In tech, software salaries went crazy during 2020-2023 along with there being a lot of title inflation. The giant hiring/hoarding also meant a smaller amount of meaningful work per person, so their skills may not match their years of experience or they ended up stagnating.

      General trends I’m seeing that are more industry/role agnostic is that lateral moves are easier than aspirational ones. Hiring managers are looking for people who are experienced in the role and willing to wait to find someone rather than taking a risk. There’s a general concern about future budgets even at stable companies so open positions get paused or delayed even though there isn’t a freeze.

      Overall I’d say 4 final rounds stemming from 7 companies is a pretty good rate! It might be that its just coming down to fit. But I’d also consider if there’s a way to better show how your experience fits their specific needs. Sometimes you’ll get two strong candidates and one shows how they are independently skilled and the other shows how they are skilled for this specific job. The second person is more likely to get the role even if they are less objectively qualified. (Caveat to make sure the role is a good fit for you – I’ve had people focus so much on selling themselves that they didn’t listen to important information and ended up hating the role once they got it)

    25. Elizabeth West*

      I was talking with the RESEA (Reemployment Services and Eligibility Assessment, a thing they make you do in Mass) guy today and said most of my applications are going into a black hole, and he said that’s the case with almost everyone he’s talked to. I’ve only had three interviews in two months — two were phone screens and the third was phone screen, manager Zoom, and is now at references. Granted, with my LD I can’t apply to as many jobs as if it weren’t a consideration, but still, that’s not a lot.

      I also wonder if everyone is hanging onto their job for dear life right now, even if it sucks. My former employer is STILL laying off. My reference said someone else on our team got axed. :(

    26. Jane*

      I’m in the entertainment industry and it’s really rough at the moment; I’ve applied for 100+ jobs this year and gotten eight interviews in total. I’m lucky to have a job outside of the industry right now, so thankfully my job searching isn’t urgent, but it’s not where I want to be long-term. (It also just…really hurts to see how many of my friends/former coworkers are either unemployed, about to be unemployed, or had to do what I did and find non-industry work just to get by. I’ve been trying to stay positive, but some days it really feels like our futures have been ripped out of our hands by greedy tech-bro execs.)

    27. Chief of Stuff*

      It’s very competitive, but part of the problem is that new tech has made it infinitely harder to stand out. We routinely get 1000+ applications for roles, even ones that I would have thought were sort of niche. Plus the number of roles opening has been fewer probably due to the economy. I’m in tech, so that might add to the competition due to many recent layoffs in the industry.

      Bottom line, if you’ve made it to that many interviews you’re actually doing pretty great. It means you’re been noticed in pretty large pools. Keep at it!

    28. labrat*

      I was laid off from a biotech company in February of this year, and just finally found a job this week. It is really tough out there for jobseekers right now. I applied to over 200 jobs, had several interviews, some progressing through several rounds, but only now, 7 months into unemployment, finally got an offer!

    29. Alternative Person*

      The bottom of the market is an ever worsening free-for-all but the baseline for good positions has definitely moved upwards. More skilled/credentialed candidates are leaving previously stable jobs with stagnant pay for better paying niches.

    30. Introvert girl*

      It’s bad. I had a job interview (phone call) just week that I ended after 7 minutes. It was for a mid-senior position with a lot of responsibility but the interviewer said it’s an entry level job. I’ve been looking for a new job for over a year now (I am employed at the moment but the pay is too low to do more than just survive.) and what I’ve noticed are job offers that pay entry level but request a lot of experience (4-10 years) or are compressing 2-3 functions in to one. People tend to leave these jobs after one year or sooner and after a while you know which companies do this.

  4. Vindication Stories*

    I had a freelance editing job go badly last autumn, and it stuck with me because I’ve never had that happen before (20+ years). The program manager had just been promoted into the role and she kept changing her mind on scope, so I re-processed the same set of documents 3 times (one more than I contractually allow, which is on me for being spineless). Finally she told me to stop and wait for further direction.

    Her boss ended up firing me over Teams, citing a bunch of lies: They wanted me to create new content from scratch and I didn’t deliver (that wasn’t the job, the job was rewriting existing content to meet their just-overhauled industry regulatory standards), I never posted the documents to their CMS like they told me to (I was told to send them by file share because IT wouldn’t approve freelancer access to their system, so what he was demanding would have required me literally hacking them), on and on. I tried to politely correct his errors but he wasn’t having it. I got off the call feeling infuriated and depressed.

    Last night out of curiosity, I searched them on LinkedIn. The program manager was demoted back to her old job a month after they fired me. Her boss is no longer listed as part of the company, and in fact I can’t find his account at all. I’m not saying I wish people ill, but this feels like proof that the issue wasn’t me being an incompetent moron.

    Anyone else have vindication stories?

    1. Job Hunting Warrior*

      I do understand the need to see objective evidence that others have had bad experiences with certain people. I haven’t experienced an obvious vindication like yours (I wish!), but plenty of relieved, whispered conversations with people who have *also* suffered the insanity and who thought they were alone. As the years go by, those people/conversations multiply.

    2. Panicked*

      Years ago, I worked with a woman who did NOT like me, for seemingly no reason. I consider myself pretty easy to get along with, but this woman had it out for me. My organization hired her friend and it only got worse. Whispering, intentionally sabotaging my work, badmouthing me to other employees/customers. At one point, they staged and intervention of sorts to get me to resign. (Yes, it was just as bananapants as it sounds.)

      A few months later, the woman disappeared. We were told “she will not be returning.” Turns out, she was stealing from the company and padding her numbers by opening accounts for her friends (by forging their signatures). Big no-no. Her friend was allowed to stay, as she couldn’t be implicated in it. After a few weeks, the friend says “I owe you an apology. You are actually lovely and didn’t deserve the way we treated you.” Felt good!

    3. Anon for This*

      Two of my top 3 worst managers ended up fired. One was fired a couple months after I left. And the other was moved around the company until she ended up in a department where the director didn’t play those “just move the bad employee” games.

      Here’s hoping my current manager (who is #2 of my top worst) follows suit.

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      Unfortunately, I put too much energy into watching past AHs to see what their life is like now. I certainly feel vindicated when I see they’ve been hoisted by their own petard. However, this is very unhealthy for me. It stems from severe and long lasting bullying and abuse in my household growing up. The result of being treated like that by so long by so many people has led me to seek ‘revenge’ which I never follow up on but do fantasize about. I am never actually satisfied when I see they have blown themselves up, however.

    5. Texan In Exile*

      Story 1
      CEO was a complete jerk (four of the 14 people in my location had quit in a year, including one person who went to lunch and didn’t come back) who told my boss to tell me not to come in the day after I gave negative feedback (I noted that the topics we had covered had nothing to do with my job) about a day-long meeting.

      I had to grovel and apologize, but I already had an offer for a new job so I gritted my teeth so I could use up my PTO and then resign. (They didn’t pay out unused PTO.)

      A year later, the board fired the CEO.

      Story 2
      I loved my new job and my new boss, but four years later, the company was acquired and they brought in a bunch of GE people to run it, including a new marketing VP who became my boss.

      They demoted the existing marketing VP to director. The CEO called the existing VP on Christmas to tell her this would be happening.

      In my performance evaluation, the new VP/my new boss told me that she didn’t get it – that everyone she talked to about me liked me and thought I did great work.

      Four months later, she eliminated my position. In the months after that, half of the marketing department quit, including the VP who had been demoted.

      A year later, the new VP was FIRED.

      A dozen former co-workers texted me to let me know what had happened.

    6. Rage*

      This is low-stakes compared to some of the others, but was still rather satisfying.

      My employer put on an annual event for our client companies (specifically for HR and HR-related staff). We would have a keynote speaker, various breakout sessions, and a catered lunch. Since my employer was mental-health-adjacent (EAP), a number of our breakout sessions were focused on mental health topics.

      One year we switched the venue to our local botanical gardens. My CEO said, “Can you find out if we could hold one of our breakout sessions outside in the garden?” The answer was “Yes, but we can’t guarantee that you would not be disturbed or interrupted. We won’t block of parts of the garden off from other visitors during regular operating hours.”

      I relayed this, and CEO said, “Let’s do it anyway. We will move the Stress Management breakout session outside, and then we can add another session option for the inside room.”

      “You really shouldn’t do that,” I said. “If the weather is bad, you will need a place to bring the outside session back inside to shelter.”

      “Rage,” he said, “don’t be so negative all the time!”

      I held firm; if the session was going to be outside, there would be an inside room to accommodate them if the weather did not cooperate.

      The event was held in late April. In Kansas.

      It snowed.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I was really kind of hoping that members of the public decided to join the Stress Management session randomly.

        But you can never make assumptions about Midwestern weather. Just that you’ll have weather.

    7. learnedthehardway*

      Had achieved a dream job, but my new manager left after 4 months. The next manager let me go just a few months later and then lied to my internal clients, saying I had quit without notice. Quite devastating to me, as I had been put my heart and soul into the job, and really wanted to progress in the company. I got a call at home from one of the internal clients, who was furious that I had “quit” – I heard later that she ripped up one side and down the other of my former manager, after I had explained that I had, in fact, been fired.

      During my job search, I reached out to a well-regarded executive search firm in my city. The managing partner didn’t have a role open, but suggested I come down and have a chat with them. I agreed, as I figured it was a networking thing and for future opportunities.

      Anyway, I get to the meeting, and the managing partner asks what happened at my former employer. I tried to be diplomatic, but it was pretty clear that there were political undercurrents to the situation, because otherwise it made no sense that I had been let go that I could see, although of course I had totally lost my confidence and thought that I must have really screwed up. So I explained what happened, and what I thought the reasons were. At that point, the managing partner of the firm explained that they had asked me to come in in order to tell me that this was that manager’s SOP – every place that person had ever gone, they had decimated the team and brought in their own people. The managing partner predicted that the manager would last at most 2 years and then would get fired.

      I felt so validated and supported, even though the firm didn’t have a role for me – it really helped so much to realize that this bewildering situation really wasn’t about my performance at all, and I was just blown away that this complete stranger cared enough about the situation to point out the pattern and reassure me that it couldn’t possibly have been my fault.

      Turns out, they were correct. Sure enough, within 2 years, the new manager had fired half the team, brought in all new people in their network, and then got fired, themself. As it turned out, while I was on parental leave, the company I subsequently worked with told me they were hiring this person, and I was able to bring the pattern to their attention, and also to say that I wouldn’t be returning, if they hired that individual. In fact, it was a data point in my decision to start my own business.

    8. Toot Sweet*

      Oh, yes. I got hired by what turned out to be an extremely toxic boss. When things first started to go bad, I asked some of the other staff about her and found they had all been complaining about her for years. It was just one bananapants thing after another: changing my work without saying anything to me, getting upset when I would try to work well with her (imaginary) rival, constantly dumping her work onto me until I was doing everything except just one function of her job…I could go on and on. I reached a point when I was trying to get an appointment with a therapist just to see if they could offer some strategies on how to deal with her. Then she ticked off the wrong people, one of whom was besties with her grandboss. The other was the IT Director; she had crappy internet due to living in a valley, and she submitted help desk tickets nearly every day during the pandemic. One of the last days she was here, she submitted six tickets in a half-hour. The IT Director went to grandboss and said he was tired of her highjacking his staff over something that they repeatedly told her was on her end. On her last day, she tried to make it sound like she had quit, but I found out pretty fast that she had been fired.

      I found out later about some other crazy stuff after she was gone and I was given access to her email. Like how she had saved every one of our department’s files to her personal drive and asked IT to do this for her EVERY DAY during the pandemic. How no one in our building wanted to meet with her one-on-one for any reason; they’d only meet if others would be there. And there was this gem that was part of an email from a psychiatrist looking for a school agreement: “I have a bunch of correspondence from ___________ (gives me chills just to type her name)…” Again: From. A. Psychiatrist.

    9. Anon for this*

      A particularly patriarchal, misogynist man at my workplace with whom I did not get along angled to hold me personally responsible for the actions of a committee I was part of but not leading (which actions were not really discipline-needing offenses, just things he didn’t like.) He did not succeed. We continued to not get along, partly because his specific beliefs and his expression of such were not aligned with our mission and it annoyed me.

      He kept moralizing all over the place until the day he was fired for sending inappropriate photos of himself to non-consenting colleagues, at which point he and his wife started a business related to our sector and posted a bunch on social media about how exciting it was that God had led him in this direction.

      To my great credit, when someone from another organization ran into me out in the wild and expressed surprise that this guy wasn’t attending the Big Thing that his organization was hosting, and what had happened to him? all I said was that he’d actually started his own business with his wife and seemed excited about it.

    10. Wilbur*

      I was a contractor and the manager I reported to was great! Raises weren’t great, but I had a lot of room to develop and was given a lot of agency. I spent years pushing to raise my visibility and try and get hired on, as full time employees had much better salaries, benefits, bonuses, PTO, etc. Manger was let go and I was disappointed because I thought she was really supportive. I burned out before I finally was converted. Grabbed coffee with my old manager who had gotten hired back on as a technician (a huge demotion), felt a bit bad about her employment situation until she blurted out how happy she was for me, how she wanted to be the one to hire me on, and that she had kept my raises small because she wanted to give me a huge pay bump when she finally hired me on. I no longer have sympathy for her employment issues and her ever shifting job prospects.

        1. Wilbur*

          Yes, she had a few people convert that had worked for her so I think she maybe had an image of herself as someone who was a pipeline for young talent. I don’t know how she could say it out loud without realizing that it came out as “I kept thousands of dollars from you on the chance I get an emotional boost out of it.”

    11. Semi-retired admin*

      Yeah, many years ago (not so long that we didn’t know what sexual harassment was, but long enough that we were still afraid to report it)) I had a boss who not only repeatedly tried to rub my shoulders, blatantly look me up and down, and send dirty jokes via email, but started an affair with a married direct report. They made the work environment VERY uncomfortable. Eventually, they both got divorced and married each other. He moved on to a high level position at another organization. Within 3 months he was fired for sexual harassment, and his 2nd wife divorced him. SO vindicating!

    12. Kay*

      My job was essentially a live-in summer camp, and my roommate/coworker really disliked me. One day she said she was going to tell our boss about my messy habits in shared housing (I’m really not THAT bad- I think I left some laundry in the living room to dry because the dryer was broken). A few days later I bumped into Boss during off hours and mentioned the situation to him, but he said I had nothing to worry about and that he was already aware she wasn’t a great culture fit. She wasn’t fired or anything, but I loved the confirmation that Boss was on my side.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      OldExjob had a manager I’ve referred to before as BullyBoss. One of BB’s direct reports, a sales estimator I’ll call Jerry, had worked there for a long time, starting out in the shop and then moving into sales. He was really good at it — always polite to clients, took good care of them, was communicative, and very personable with them. He would always help other estimators’ clients when they were out of the office, even if he was busy, and even though they wouldn’t help any of his (one guy wouldn’t answer his own phone when it was ringing right next to him).

      BB picked and picked and picked at Jerry, all the time, ceaselessly. According to him, Jerry couldn’t do anything right. I could hear all of this because BB sat in front of me in the open office and Jerry sat near me, beyond the divider to the reception area. It was like secondhand harassment.

      Jerry just took it, since he had a family and was always worried about losing his job. BB would undermine him, too. If he took a new client call and it was in Jerry’s territory, he would fail to pass it on so it looked like Jerry wasn’t doing his job. If he helped any of Jerry’s customers, he would cut him out and send product sample requests directly to me without looping him in. I caught on to this and sent the clients Jerry’s info and left BB off the email. >:}

      We were bought out by an international conglomerate and a new VP came on board. He started a round of layoffs with us and a sister company. Eventually, my position was completely eliminated, and I was laid off and my work divided up between other people. I was on the grapevine with a few former coworkers at the time, and not too long after that, one of them told me that BB had been fired. Not laid off — fired.

      I would give my left pinky toe to have been a fly on the wall during that meeting. >:}

    14. Consonance*

      My first job out of college (13 years ago!) was as an AmeriCorps volunteer at an educational non-profit. They relied heavily on AmeriCorps for accomplishing their mission. There was a set of directors, but all of the labor was AmeriCorps members. They were growing incredibly rapidly, trying to get all the accolades and all of the funding, and I was the annoying junior person who kept telling them that this approach wasn’t sustainable, we didn’t have enough training to be their bread and butter, and their approach was ethically questionable (faith-based but “not” as long as you didn’t mind the bible study and the praying…). This past spring I got an email blast from their board that they’d had to cease operations immediately because of financial instability and unsustainable growth.

    15. goddessoftransitory*

      Besides a certain bookstore chain firing me and then collapsing utterly about five months later?

      Nahhhh.

    16. Alternative Person*

      New manager got parachuted in at my old company and decided she didn’t like me, possibly because I refused to be a yes person for her. She spent a year excluding me from things I had been previously working on and giving them to others and generally cultivating her own personal sycophants.

      As she was being nothing but unpleasant to me, I tried going to her manager who I previously had a good relationship with but that manager was so invested in protecting his pet hire that I soon saw the writing on the wall and decided to leave.

      I found out a while after that they both got transferred not long after my contract ended. She was given a polite out and transferred to a similar post with more supervision because she was just not experienced/organized/sensible enough to run the department on her own and her manager was punted to an undesirable post elsewhere for what was apparently a laundry list of ongoing problems.

    17. Schadenfreude*

      I had been criticized for fussing over too many details and doing too much testing. ;-)

      I still had access to read Slack and was able to watch the first software deploy they did to production without me involved. It took a big team of people hours (my releases took about 15 minutes), with icky risky things happening right and left. They also reverted some of the latest data that had already been in production, rolling back to the last month — the customer noticed that first thing in the morning.

    18. Parcae*

      The company that was always on my case about needing to work harder/produce more hired three people to replace me. Just thinking about it warms my soul.

      1. Anon for this*

        Ha! Yes. My last company replaced part-time me (CFO) with a full time CFO, a full time HR manager and another part time accountant (in addition to the part time accountant we already had). Plus LOTS of consulting from outside accounting firms.

    19. Estranged_Geologist*

      This one is a doozy. I spent a horrible 1.5y at a company struggling to fix problems I inherited from the last guy on the project I was assigned to. My predecessor lied constantly, likely committed timesheet fraud, and had bad contractors do all the work. But the contractors also didn’t listen to me (younger woman) and the PM was a bully who’d harass me at all hours of the day (literally, called me at 10pm to scold me for not doing some random thing she’d never assigned me). My boss was so invested in protecting her and this project that I was penalized for…reporting the problems with her safety regs, that I’d inherited, and her harassment. (It was harassment. I should have quit within 3mo.)

      By the time I left, I had been moved off the project and ex boss gave me a horrible reference for internally reporting the safety issues to corporate. Which I was only doing because I was constantly being harassed to accept it all. Think constant explosions, once a week, because aluminum fittings on saltwater pipes (they corrode, block, then boom). Huge safety issue. Plus we had two fires in 4mo near gas tanks!

      A few months after I quit, I found out that the project manager got a huge demotion, and the boss that spent all this time protecting her was in hot water for hiding all this from the CEO. Couldn’t have happened to a better pair. (And yes, this job site was deeply, deeply cursed. I don’t believe in curses. If you told me that site had been cursed by an angry coven of witches, or contained a disturbed burial ground, I would believe every word you said.) Bonus, this ex boss of mine blames me personally for ruining his retirement because corporate investigated my reports.

      I was very, very satisfied that he and his prized PM both got in trouble after all that garbage he put me through.

    20. Enjoyed watching karma play out*

      We got a new dean, incredibly arrogant. Shouting in faculty meetings, abusive to staff, publicly insulting people, etc. One third of faculty and staff resigned, including top researchers. Then one day, he was arrested for solicitation and had to give his resignation. It seems that the person he tried to hire was an undercover cop. The popular Halloween costume on campus that year was a man in a suit handcuffed to a woman dressed as a prostitute.

    21. Anon for this*

      Ah yes
      #1 A million years ago I was the controller at a sales force outsourcing company. One sales manager REFUSED to submit his expense reports regularly even though he travelled a ton. He was spoken to by everyone, including the CEO, and still wouldn’t. He called me all sorts of names and said really nasty things behind my back. The thing was, he had a corporate AMEX, which meant the balance was his responsibility to pay. Which I explained to him about 50 times to no avail
      Enron was half our revenue, so when they went under, we did too. This guy had $20k outstanding on his card and couldn’t believe he was stuck with the balance. I did feel bad for him, but geez, dude.

      #2 More recently a company I was CFO of was acquired by a big European company. The Big Boss from Europe (BB) was such.an.arrogant.jerk. We’d come out of board meetings with him and feel just whipped. Nothing was right or good enough ever. Turns out, after all the due diligence they did, they didn’t understand our business model at all, so everything looked bad to them! It was unreal. After a couple of years, BB got fired in a particularly nasty way. I wasn’t that sorry…

  5. Mothman's Uber*

    Might be an odd question but how do you make a work friend into a real life friend? I have several people in my life who have friends they meet at work who they regularly see outside of work and even keep when they stop working together. In all the jobs I’ve had, I have work friends in the kind that we have fun chatting when work is slow and swap personal holiday gifts (not like an office Secret Santa) but none who I would like to get to know outside of work. Recently, there are two coworkers who I’d like to get to know more: one is a newer employee (has been here a couple months now) and one is someone who has been here nearly as long as I have but I only recently got to know through a project we worked on. Both are people who I find fun and, in our conversations, we have overlapping interests and hobbies.

    How do I figure out if they’re interested in being friends or if they’re just being friendly at work? The newer person is a front desk employee so she’s tied to her desk the majority of the day. I enjoy walking down and talking to her but I worry that I’m forcing my presence on her since she can’t leave her desk. I’ve always been a little awkward with making friends and anxious about how people perceive me, so I feel weird navigating an office friendship that I’d like to actually pursue. I know I’m overthinking this and the answer is probably just keep friendly chatting and maybe mention getting lunch together on a work day before trying to see if they want to hang out outside of work. Any thoughts?

    1. Arden Windermere*

      I definitely think that lunch outside of work on a work day is the first step. See how that goes and if it’s fun, try to do it maybe weekly. At some point there will probably be some kind of event or something going on where one of you can say “hey, there’s this band/bar trivia/car show/thing after work – want to come check it out with me?”

    2. Pocomo 888*

      I struggle with this too. I think I would start with a casual suggestion, somewhere along the lines of, “we should grab lunch sometime!”, and see how she responds. If it’s lukewarm or not particularly enthusiastic, I wouldn’t bring it up again. If she seems interested, you could say something like – I think next week looks pretty good for me, but I’ll double check. Then maybe wait a few hours and come back with a few suggested dates. And then beyond that, and based on how the lunch went, you could try suggesting something hobby/interest related that you could attend together. Just stay attuned to cues that she may be giving off.

      1. evens*

        Don’t go with “we should grab lunch sometime.” Try “Want to go to [specific place] today/tomorrow for lunch?” Otherwise, you are putting the burden of “how about now?” “Should we go here?” on them. If they say yes, win! If they say no but seem regretful, try again in a week or two.

    3. Emily of New Moon*

      Ask them if they’d like to get together sometime outside of work. That’s what I did, and now I have a new friend!

      1. AnonymousOctopus*

        I was the recipient of this and it worked! I always thought my colleague was awesome but am shy about inviting people/imposing on their free time, so I was thrilled when she asked. We both left the company but still get together a few times a month.

      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I think I literally slacked a coworker, “Hey, you seem plausibly friend-shaped — want to get together for a walk sometime?” (we’re fully remote, but both local) and she said yes. We aren’t close, but it’s three jobs later for her and we still meet up a few times a year.

        1. A reader among many*

          I love this, haha. I would definitely laugh and consider making time in my schedule if I received this message.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I think lunch together on a work day is a great first step!

      If that goes well, for outside-of-work hangouts, my suggestions are:
      – invite them to something you’re planning to do anyways, and
      – make it easy for them to say “no”

      It could look something like this: “hey, I’m going to the local art museum on Saturday because they have a new exhibit on abstract sculptures*. Are you interested in joining?” That way they can easily say “sorry, I’m busy on Saturday” or “I love sculpting, but museums aren’t really my thing.”

      Best of luck!

      *where “abstract sculptures” is a shared interest (or sculpting is a shared hobby). Obviously change the script for whatever interests/hobbies you have in common with your coworkers.

      1. Quinalla*

        Yup, I second this. Make it something you are doing regardless so if they show up or not, it doesn’t affect your plans and yes, say something further to make it easy to say no like “I know you are probably pretty busy, but …” that way if they don’t want to go, they can take the out you offered. If they say no I can’t go, have fun! Then don’t invite them again. If they say more like, Oh, I am busy that day but really would love to do something like that in the future. Then try again. I usually will try 3 times if the vibes seem good and if none of those work, I probably back off a bit.

        Folks that have become friends outside of work, that is how it started and eventually we were playing D&D or board games monthly or going to X event together or just getting together for dinner and/or a movie. And some of the folks don’t work with either me or my husband anymore, but are still in the friend group, some still work with us.

    5. Nicosloanica*

      Making friends is a process of slow escalation, pausing at each step to see if there’s reciprocity. If no receprocity, take a step back down and be happy there. It’s not some sort of judgement on you if they’re happy at the “coffee break together” level but don’t want to hang out outside work, it’s just that nobody has a lot of time/space right now in their lives. An escalation to me would look like: step one, friendly conversations. Step two, invite someone to join you on a coffee break or a happy hour with a group. No pressure. If they decline, you should only ask maybe one more time and then not again, they will invite you if they actually do want to get closer but the timing wasn’t right. Step three, maybe invite them, maybe as part of a group, to do something outside work hours, like on the weekend. Step four might be one on one hangouts outside work / going to each others houses. Step 500 is like, vacationing together. To be fair, work friends are hard to judge because I’ve had many I hung out with outside of work and would have sworn we were “real friends” but when I left that role it turned out we didn’t have quite as much in common as I thought, it was more the circumstances of both spending 40 hours a week in the same place. But that’s not a failure! We still had fun together and have warm feelings from a distance now.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Oh and the master trick: when you get to step 3/4, try to pick something you want to do anyway, and make the specific invitation, like “I was thinking I’d like to go see the new Deadpool movie on Saturday, any interest in seeing it with me?” rather than “do you want to hang out sometime.” Captain Awkward has some good stuff on this if you look at the Friends tag.

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Basically all of this. I met my best friends at an old job years and years ago, and our friendship definitely evolved exactly like this. Coffee breaks, grabbing lunch together, going for drinks after work, hanging out on the weekend, etc.

        The only thing I’d caution is that once you stop working together, it will take a bit more work to stay engaged since you won’t see each other every day. We almost never do anything on a weeknight anymore because it’s too annoying to get together because we no longer have that close proximity. But that’s also not dissimilar to non-work friends who you can’t get together with because people have work, families, etc.

    6. Casual Librarian*

      Some ideas I have used:
      * Lunch together which can either be in a break room at the same time or going out to eat quick. This has the perks of being a short time frame that has a set ending, but the conversation can be a bit more personal and less work-related.
      *Happy hour/after work meal or drink/snack: Same pros as before where it’s immediately work-adjacent, but there’s no definite end.
      *Start or join a work-based fantasy football/pick ’ems league. You can talk about it at work, but you also get to interact with people outside of work if you want to.
      *Join a work social committee or other cross-team effort which can be more informal.
      *I’m a big fan of setting up trivia nights if I know a coworker I’m friendly with is into X and that topic is on the docket for a local trivia game.
      *I have sometimes tried to transition by getting someone’s personal phone number whether it’s to quick send a picture of something I’m selling, I want to message them something I don’t want on the work servers, or else if we are traveling together. It’s been useful to have a few of these on hand and can help the transition. I also know some coworkers that try to go the Facebook/social media follow route. I don’t love this one, but I suppose it’s an option if that’s your type of connection.
      *Offer to loan out something you have that they need–example is I’ve loaned out yard equipment and small construction equipment so that people don’t need to rent.
      *When I was pumping at work, I had a coworker that, every day, woudl make a point to eat lunch with me on the other side of the wall while I pumped/ate. She hated that I was lonely.

      I’ll say that most of my friends I’ve made in my adult life are from work. I’ve tried other avenues, but work friends have gone the extra mile.

      1. HappyPizzamas*

        I agree to all of this. We started a restaurant club at one of my previous jobs to try out new places and even though I’ve switched jobs, we still go out once a month.

        Current place has a trivia group. I feel like I’ve been able to maintain my work friends more when it’s tied to a specific activity vs. just happy hour.

    7. Pay no attention...*

      If you have a hobby/interest in common, you could try to engage them in something like that. My work friend, who’s now a real friend, and I bonded over our love of cacti and succulents. We’ve seen each other at big regional plant sales or shows. The low key part of that is that it’s been a big public event, we both were going to be there anyway (or wanted to but maybe hadn’t decided), and then agreed to meet up at the event, or swap plants, etc. I’ve seen this play out with others at work around me… bond over sports, quilting, music, plants, animals… then that turns into a friendship outside of work. I participate in Fantasy Football and now I get together with a group of current and former co-workers and two former bosses at least once during the season to hang out.

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      Grabbing lunch is a perfect first step. Hanging out after work for a drink or snack or something is a great next step–it’s a natural continuation from the workday, and a good way to segue to hanging out outside of work hours.

    9. The Coolest Clown Around*

      At my job I’ve made a few friends by inviting people to work lunches, then to more casual lunches, and then to something after work/on a weekend that’s very casual a few times (soup party! Tis the season!). After a while, either they start to reciprocate or if they don’t I just keep it fairly chill. It often takes a little longer for people to return that last casual event step than the others, I think just because most people my age don’t have a good hosting space in the region I live in.

    10. Donkey Hotey*

      I have a pretty strong policy of not hanging out 1:1 with co-workers. If a group of co-workers do things, fine. But I wait until one of us leaves before I suggest anything else.

    11. Artemesia*

      Have a little dinner party– make pizza or spaghetti, doesn’t have to be fancy — and invite a person you hope to develop friendship with along with other people you know or are friends with. when everyone at a party is from work– it feels like a work party but if you include a work friend in a group that is not other folks form work then it is clearly a personal overture.

    12. Blue Pen*

      Most of my closest work-to-friend relationships came from trauma bonding: our workplace was miserable, but that allowed us to forge some pretty strong bonds.

      I’m now in a place where it’s much healthier, and I’m struggling a bit with this now, too! Everyone here is friendly and chats with you, but I haven’t yet picked up on the “did we just become best friends?!” vibe yet. There’s definitely some potentials, though, so we’ll see—I think it just takes time and putting low-stakes feelers out: as in, step outside the office. Are you regularly getting coffee with this person? Grabbing a drink? Then in my mind, you’re friends, and you could think about pushing it to another level in a casual way: “Oh cool, you’re going to the farmer’s market on Saturday morning, too? I’ll look for you there!”

    13. WYKYK*

      I have a few friends I’ve made via work and they all started the same way! Just getting lunch or coffee together. That gives you time and space to figure out if you have anything in common. It’s honestly hard to put into word when you know it’s moved from just coworkers to friends. I feel like you just pick up on a vibe? Those lunches change to maybe going to the movies, or a sporting event. It just feels like a natural progression.

    14. Speak*

      You say you have “overlapping interests and hobbies”, if you are going to an event outside of work invite them to come with. I am a skier & found out that a few of our newer hires are either snowboarder or skiers, so if I am going to go to a mountain after work one day, I have asked if they are interested in joining me on the mountain. None took me up on it this past Winter, but I was only able to go twice after work since the ski season was bad in my area.

    15. Qwerty*

      1. Group outing. Usually I’m the organizer of office happy hours. Current job some of us walk to lunch together. The larger the group, the greater success because there’s less pressure.
      2. Local events related to the industry, like a networking event. Invite 1-2 people to join. Make sure not to spend the whole night together – it is more of “we are a backup plan for when going up to strangers feels intimidating”
      3. Chat from 1&2 will likely produce opportunities to hang out. A concert you both like, a brewery you want to try, etc. Casual stuff works best where each person drives separately and can leave on their own timetable.
      4. We have now merged with the normal “how to make a friend” freeway, continue as far as you mutually agree upon.

    16. I should really pick a name*

      Just go ahead and invite them to do something.

      See a play, go to a museum, stuff like that. An activity that will provide conversation topics.

    17. Moths*

      I think others have had some great points and ideas here! The only thing I’ll add because I haven’t seen it come up and I didn’t see it mentioned in your post is that if you think there might be the risk of it coming off as asking for a date, I would suggest leaning strongly towards suggesting group stuff first versus one-on-one lunch or dinner. Just because they might be more inclined to say no to hanging out if they think it is a covert date request. I don’t think at all that you’re trying to do that, but I would hate to see friendship advances rejected out of fear that you’re asking for more than you are.

    18. Hyaline*

      I totally agree with lunch (or, if leaving for lunch isn’t the norm, ask if she wants to join you in the break room or whatever is normal for lunchtime socializing). If you have overlapping interests, you might ask if she wants to go with you if there’s an event or shop or something related to the hobby–like if you both knit, “Hey, I heard there’s a new yarn store downtown–I’m going to check it out after work Thursday, want to come?” or “There’s a birding talk and walk at the wildlife sanctuary next Saturday, any interest in going?” Even better if you give the impression that you’re going to do it regardless, so there’s no real pressure–if it’s a “no I don’t want to hang out outside work” they can respond with “oh sorry busy” and drop it. But if they do wish it COULD work even if it doesn’t this time, you’ve made the overture and they might reciprocate, or offer in the moment “Oh, I can’t this weekend, but the art museum is doing a talk on textiles next week, want to go?”

  6. BellaStella*

    Thank you all for the advice on what to wear to a speaking gig on AI last week. I did well, made 15 great new contacts, had a lot of good cocktail discussions (including one on the politics of being childfree which was off topic but really great!), and learned a lot at the conference! In the end, I wore black pants with a white t shirt and lightweight pale blue blazer with rolled cuffs. It started my week off really well too. Now, just waiting for more news about some work challenges that I hope soon are resolved.

  7. Tradd*

    This is a fun time for anyone involved with ocean transportation/customs clearance for container freight over the US east coast/gulf. There is a dockworkers’ strike that will happen Tuesday unless something happens in the meantime. I’m the customs broker that often posts. We’re having to hold off submitting clearances for shipments arriving this weekend or later. It’s common with dockworkers’ strikes for ships to get diverted to other ports if they don’t just sit off shore. I wrote up something explaining it all in plain simple language to send to any customer who asks.

    On a different note, from my post last Friday about the HS codes and overseas agents being difficult? I made up a template we send when we handle those requests and people are HOWLING at additional information being requested before we can fulfil their request. I think one overseas agent finally got it that providing more information at the beginning means he gets what he needs much quicker. Otherwise, we’re telling everyone that we can’t assist without the required info. Higher ups are backing me up!

    1. Self Employed Employee*

      Excellent news on the template. I am guessing the howlers will soon catch up to the process.

      (I know nothing about working in customs, so it is always interesting to read your posts.)

      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        Second that! While I deal with international companies and travel often internationally, customs and shipping is a whole new world and very interesting!

  8. multipotentialite*

    I have an interview for a volunteer position at an animal rescue. Do I still need to dress formally? Are “dressy casual” clothes enough? They interview anyone applying to be a volunteer.

    1. Ms. Yvonne*

      I am sure you are safe showing up “dressy casual” – anything more will be out of context for the kind of work they do.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Dressy casual sounds good.

      It doesn’t matter that it’s not what you’d wear to work there (maybe); it’s that you want to make a good impression.

    3. EngGirl*

      I would actually call and ask if there’s going to be any component to this that involves interacting with the animals. You don’t necessarily want to show up in nice dressy casual stuff only to find out they want you on the floor being swarmed by puppies (even though this is my literal dream)

      1. MsM*

        Good point. (Or even if they just offer to take you around so you can meet the animals, you don’t want to be wearing something that would make that prohibitive.)

      2. Cyndi*

        Yeah, when I was a shelter volunteer there were specific restrictions on what we could and couldn’t wear when handling the animals (closed toe shoes, long pants, etc.) for hygiene and safety reasons, so if this place has similar rules it’d be useful to dress with them in mind.

      3. Nash*

        I volunteer in animal rescue a lot. I’d wear non ripped jeans, clean sneakers or flats, and a solid colored t shirt. If male/male identifying Id wear a golf/polo shirt and jeans. Don’t dress up!

    4. Buffalo*

      I used to run a cat rescue. If you’re volunteering with the animals, I’d go more casual than dressy casual. If it’s more of an office volunteer role, aim for more dressy casual.

    5. Tiina*

      I’d dress to be comfortable and potentially be in active work areas. I’ve volunteered with an animal rescue and a wildlife rehabilitation center. For interviews and orientations at both, I toured the facilities and animal enclosures. Even if you stick with the dressier end of casual, consider wearing shoes that you don’t mind getting dirty and/or potentially needing to rinse off.

    6. Annony*

      Wear the dressiest thing you would be comfortable wearing for the actual job you want to do. So maybe dressy casual if you would be doing reception or filing applications but more like some nice jeans with a plain t-shirt and sneakers if you are going to be picking up poop and washing dogs.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      Wear something you would be willing to engage with animals in, then dress it up slightly with a blazer or sweater you could remove for the animal portion.

    9. Hyaline*

      Nice casual sounds perfect (maybe not even dressy–just on the nice end of casual. Jeans instead of leggings or shorts, polo or sweater instead of t-shirt…that kind of thing). I’d wear something clean, presentable, without holes…but that if they sent me straight in to work with some pups I wouldn’t mind getting covered in fur.

    10. hi there*

      I work at a nonprofit homeless services place. As long as you are put-together and wear close-toed, non-heeled shoes, that’s a good outfit for our interviews.

  9. Left out as the sole non-Mom*

    My colleagues are all women, including my Director and Manager. My team-mates too. As I am, but the one thing that differentiates me is that I don’t have kids, and am starting to feel ostracized as the only one without kids?

    Like once some said at a team meeting “I don’t know what I did with all my free time before I had kids” and then everyone looked at me. This was early in my role and really set the tone.

    And recently we talked about a tv show (Breaking Bad) that I brought up and some of my teammates said she didn’t have time to watch it and the others nodded in unison said “That’s life with kids” despite the fact the show aired well before any of them had kids in the first place.

    And my admin who is pregnant is getting quite close to my Manager too, and they are always texting outside of work and my Manager plans on seeing her post delivery in the hospital. But I also see my Manager also looking out for more professional development opportunities for our admin. Much more compared to me.

    I’ve never felt this out of place in other roles where my colleagues were parents. Any advice? I realize too this might be in my head but when we have group meetings it confirms my suspicions.

    1. Glazed Donut*

      They’re choosing to lean into the division when it isn’t necessary. I was in a similar situation in a job but it was by age – everyone else would comment on old TV shows, incidents at the company 15 years prior, etc., knowing I didn’t know what they were talking about. I think they thought it was cute (and maybe they thought made me feel special? I didn’t).
      Change the topic, let it roll off your back, or talk to someone in a position of authority about how it’s ostracizing you – you’re sure it’s not intentional (benefit of the doubt) but it’s impacting your experience at work.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        They’re choosing to lean into the division when it isn’t necessary.

        I agree with this. In one of my first full-time jobs, most of my coworkers were 15+ years older than me and had kids. They occasionally made jokes about me being young/not understanding their references/not understanding older technology. But it was occasional not constant so it felt good-natured to me. There also were occasional times where they would be swapping stories/advice about raising kids and I didn’t have anything to contribute to those conversations. But never all of them making “that’s life with kids” and “what even is life before kids?” comments and giving me pointed looks to single me out as The Person Without Kids.

        No advice, just confirmation that your coworkers’ comments do feel very pointed.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I also wonder if they are wanting to know more about OP’s time because they want to live through them.

    2. Nicosloanica*

      Ugh, yes, it’s hard sometimes when you feel like you can barely talk about anything in your life without seeming to give offense/highlight the differences (and they may feel the same way. You ask “how was your weekend” and they can’t figure out what to say because it was just a blur of child disaster). I guess a lot of empathy and since you’re completely outnumbered I’d probably make it clear you’re not kid-negative. Sometimes you might talk about a niece/godchild/other child in your life, ask questions about their kids etc. You’re not going to change hearts and minds if you’re literally the only one so you might have to go along to get along a bit here.

    3. Pomegranates*

      The very important piece here is that it is affecting your professional development opportunities. If you think your manager will be receptive, I think talking to her could be useful, but that’s a judgement call on your part.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      . . . this seems like they’re weirdly invested in Being Moms and creating a bigger gulf than is necessary? My department has five people–one with grown kids, one with small kids, and three with no kids (four women and one man, and the man is a very involved dad, not the type to leave most of it to his wife), and the ones with kids don’t talk about their kids or parenting lives anywhere near this much. The ones with kids also have interests other than the kids, so.

      1. SansaStark*

        I was thinking the same thing. Everyone on my team has kids except me ranging from grown adults to littles, and the kids only come up once and awhile in chit-chat about their weekend or some silly/annoying thing one of them did.

        IME, it’s hard to talk to people who talk down to childfree folks with stuff like “I don’t know what I did with all that free time before kids” without saying something like “And I don’t know how I’d live with all that noise and no weekend naps, Susan, so I guess we’ll just keep living the lives we’ve chosen for ourselves.” I know that’s not really helpful in a work context, so I usually just interject small stories about my nieces or my friends’ kids so that I’m not left out of the conversation entirely.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Even when I worked in jobs where nearly everyone else was pregnant or a young mom, they weren’t this Mom-Centric at work and they didn’t assume that my childless weekends were wild bacchanals–single non-parents also have to grocery shop and do laundry and clean house. What the OP describes here seems pretty far out on the bell curve.

      2. MsM*

        Yeah, my parent coworkers are always the ones telling me, “Oh, you have to watch [insert show here]!” Maybe you can just go, “Oh, well, you should check it out if you’re able to find time,” and then redirect the conversation to work or something else that can’t be turned into a parenting conversation without a lot of bending over backwards?

      3. Yes And*

        This was my reaction as well. I have two school-age kids, and finding time to do stuff for ourselves is… not actually that hard? Like, I couldn’t binge a whole series in one go even if I wanted to, but my wife and I sit down to watch an episode of something between the kids’ bedtime and our own most nights. It’s a nice ritual to wind down the day together, and we’ve made it through several prestige series (including Breaking Bad, twice).

        Some parents – not just women, although that’s the sexist stereotype, I’ve often seen men do this too – are really into the martyrdom of having had to (gasp) make choices to start a family. It sounds to me like the Manager is one such, as she’s set the tone for the whole office.

        I’d be tempted to test that hypothesis. What happens if you try to draw out your other coworkers on non-kid topics when you’re one on one, or in a small group without Manager there?

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I only binge-watch if I’m sick and lying in bed all day, anyway! Which, mercifully, is not very often.

        3. allathian*

          Yes, this. We have one teenager, and we’re happy that we can introduce some of our favorite “old” shows to him. (He’s an introvert and only has one extracurricular, the scouts.) When he was younger we certainly watched an episode or two of a show after he’d gone to bed.

    5. Lisa*

      I’m also single, but and granted I haven’t had a female boss in years, but having a manager visiting me in the hospital seems WEIRD! That feels like crossing a line for sure. I do prefer to keep my personal and professional lives somewhat separated except maybe with a few close people, so it could just be me. Maybe they’re all intertwined because they’ve started relying on each other for personal things and not realizing what that means for anybody not enmeshed in their circle. It not being something you can change, I think you’re probably better off looking for a different place to work that isn’t so clique-ish.

    6. Anon4this*

      I would talk to your manager about the professional development. Don’t comment that she is giving more to your coworker just ask if there are x opportunities for you and you’d be interested. Advocate for yourself respectfully.

      Let the show stuff roll off your back. I’m a parent but my sister is childless and single by choice, so she talks to me about it. Her issue is when more work is pushed to her because she has no kids. Even with parent friends I talk about shows I watch at night and they say to me “I wish I had the time!” Everyone priorities different things.

    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think it’s in your head, but I do think a lot of this is people not necessarily Mom-ing at you so much as Mom-ing around you because there are so many other moms. Like the “Breaking Bad” example isn’t really about the fact that they could have watched it before they had kids (lots of people aren’t up on popular TV when it airs), it’s just that they broadly don’t have a ton of free time to do it now.

      If it were me, I’d probably try to ignore all the stuff that wasn’t affecting me professionally. I think your manager going to see your admin in hospital is super weird and a giant overstep, so that’s something I’d continue to keep an eye on. Likewise, if your manager is looking at lots of professional development opportunities for your admin but not you, speak up! Your issue isn’t that the admin might be getting PD, because that’s actually a good thing, it’s that you aren’t also getting PD so you need to find a way to rectify that if your boss hasn’t noticed herself.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Like once some said at a team meeting “I don’t know what I did with all my free time before I had kids” and then everyone looked at me.

        That’s skirting a bit close to mom-ing at her.

        Even if it’s not, it’s ridiculous and entirely unnecessary to single out one person for something so utterly not-work-related.

    8. Joelle*

      Ugh, this sounds terrible, I’m sorry OP!

      I would go to my boss and say “hey, I notice you’ve given Receptionist more career development stuff than me lately – can I ask what’s up with that because I hope I haven’t given you the impression that I am not interested in that stuff.” (But a bit more polished – I am having trouble accessing my inner Alison today for wording) and see what she says. That might help with that aspect.

      As for all the mom talk, I agree with all the advice others have suggested. Also, how is your grandboss? Is she someone you can talk to about the wider problem if your manager isn’t? Maybe someone in HR? Approach this as a “I am looking for tips on how to make this situation feel less ostracizing/what to say in response” in feel because of course my boss and coworkers aren’t trying to other me, it’s unintentional but still will alert them to the situation — if they think they should intervene they will likely mention that.

      That is also a tact you could take if you are comfortable directly confronting the situation. “Hey, I know you aren’t trying to ostracize me for not having kids, but it feels that way some times. Can we tone down both the kids talk and the comments that feel passive aggressive about me not having kids? I’m really invested in the work our team does, and sometimes these conversations/comments make me feel like y’all don’t think of me as part of the team for something that has nothing to do with our work environment, and that’s not cool.”

      Good luck.

      1. Annony*

        For career development stuff, I would start by just asking for it and use the receptionist as an example rather than a comparison. “I’m really hoping to focus more on career development this year. I noticed you are looking into X and Y for Receptionist and I was wondering if there are similar opportunities for me.”

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      If it counts for anything, I’m child free and I don’t watch much TV either, so it’s not exclusively a function of having/ not having kids.

      1. HSE Compliance*

        Also childfree. We don’t have cable. This confuses the heck out of people.

        And I’ve been in offices before where Being A Mother was a huge topic of conversation. A more normal office will have it be occasional and still be inclusive. OP, your office sounds pretty far off the sanity cliff. It’s really weird how pointed they’re being about it. Definitely make a point of asking for more development opportunities, but keep a close eye on whether you’re being cut out of other activities.

    10. Excel Gardener*

      No advice but solidarity. I’ve definitely experienced coworkers who are parents making comments that implicitly or explicitly idealize my single life. Personally, as someone who is single but wants to find a long-term partner and have kids, I find it a bit grating when people act like it’s so nice to be single and have all this free time (sometimes it is nice! sometimes it’s also very lonely though, friends don’t meet the same needs a partner or having kids does).

    11. Dandylions*

      TLDR; Chances are high this isn’t malicious. It’s unintentional due to their current life stage, and the more you can internalize that and speak up about your hobbies when they are looking your way the better off you will be.

      Well TBF to your manager, you didn’t mention how long anyone’s been on the team. So it could be she knows more that the admin can develope on because she’s worked longer.

      I agree with others that you need to advocate for yourself about development opportunities.

      I also agree with the others saying that this isn’t pointed like you feel it it. As a mom of an under 3 I can tell you it’s all encompassing. Like I took a coworker out to lunch with the explicit goal to limit kid talk and focus on work stuff with her. We talked about work for 10 minutes and breastfeeding and sleep routines the rest of it. It’s just so all consuming your brain kind of loses it’s memory of hobbies in the before years.

      If it makes you feel any better I actually think everyone looking at you during the “What did I do with all that free time!” was an invitation to talk about yourself. Especially if everyone on the team has young kids then they are extremely tired, dealing with rapid changes all the time they have to learn to adjust too, and just generally stressed because child everything right now sucks.

    12. Ellis Bell*

      Sometimes when there’s a lot of parent talk, it’s because there just happens to be a lot of parents, but this feels a bit different. 1) I’m getting a bit of a Children Are What You are Supposed To Do, To Be Normal yellow flag (only by watching out for further signs can you say if this is the case or not though). I’ve seen parents joke about not having any free time, but to then pointedly look at you as though they resent the choice they didn’t make is just really super odd. 2) It seems like their entire identity is about being parents and they don’t have any interest in anything else. Sure, they can shoot down the topic of one particular show, or of TV in general, but it sounds like they don’t have anything else to talk about, ever. (if they do, then scratch this point, but if they don’t…. They really don’t even remember their misspent, TV binging years of youth? Hmm). But this all pales in comparison to 3) Professional development and In Crowd status happens when you become officially preggers and therefore One Of Us. Definitely raise that you’re not seeing similar investment in your development and ask what you could do differently; if there is something they should be able to name it.

    13. Qwerty*

      Alternative framing: They have really leaned into each other as a support group and its sorta morphed into the The Thing they always talk about.

      Like, I can totally interpret the “everyone look at the non-parent” as “oops, New Hire does not have kids, that was awkward, Is she upset? Amused? Why is no one saying anything?” My experience is that humans are hyper awkward creatures who perform worse in a group.

      Even if that isn’t what’s going on, it feels like a safer take for your sanity. Are you ok with kid topics? Lean in! I had an awkward work environment where I was the only non-parent, only woman, and only non-lead (we had more leads than teams so I was just kinda extra). Everyone’s kids were exactly the same age because they got married the same year, had their first borns the same year (all boys), then second borns the same year (all girls). They were weird at first because they knew it was an awkward situation for me, but I dove in to the conversations about diapers and being tired all the time until it wasn’t awkward. Should it have landed on me? Probably not but they certainly weren’t going to fix it. Alternatively, lean in to be the non-parent. Respond to “no time for Breaking Bad” with a joke about how the kids can watch it alongside them (only works for something obvious non-kid like your example) or “wish I had free time” with “yeah, its great, I knit a sweater this weekend”.

      1. Busybee*

        I appreciate this comment. I try not to bore my childfree colleagues with talk of my kids. But my family is pretty much my life. My weekends are family stuff. My evenings are not tv filled. My “decompressing after work time” is…making dinner and driving to practices. That doesn’t mean I’m trying to be a martyr! It’s just my reality. And other people might find it really boring or annoying but it’s my life and I don’t want to hide it. There already too much pressure to “work like you don’t have kids” and I would rather not to try to pretend.

    14. Frankie Bergstein*

      I worked in an office like this once! It did a number on me. I honestly think it was emblematic of several different things — I was a lot more work oriented at work vs. wanting to spend meetings chitchatting. I also found my colleagues were underperforming. They showed up to meetings unprepared, did not do any work (or did the bare minimum) which meant it fell to me — so it was part of an overall work environment that was a poor fit. Overall, I felt really lonely at the end of each work day. I changed jobs to place that is more work-oriented. We talk about work at work. We talk about our personal lives too, but it’s not at the center of every conversation. It’s more inclusive. My mental health is much, much better. I feel like I’m part of a bigger mission rather than lonely.

  11. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Fellow academic librarians (and academics more broadly) – how are we holding up?

    I’m exhausted and have taken on too much work this semester, but I’m mostly frustrated with myself for taking on increased roles in shared governance. I had hopes to make some positive changes, but I’m just bogged down in procedure and other people’s insistence that they must talk about all things in all circumstances. We have made progress on exactly zero things so far.

    On the plus side, I’ve had some of my best interactions with students. They’re asking great questions, they’re interested in our resources, they seem to care about their education in a way I haven’t seen since before Covid.

    1. Nonanon*

      I’m just glad to hear you’re having good interactions with students; I got used to the “kids these days, gen Z can’t do anything” rhetoric, and like…. that discussion has been going on for ages, you’re just replacing written word with iPhones, so it’s great to hear positive stories about them ACTUALLY being curious and caring about education.

    2. oh so tired*

      I am on the tech services side of academic librarians and just. Whew. Also exhausted by the semester, but for once it isn’t because of student employees or actual work….it’s because of a problem employee I manage. They do not follow any instructions, and are of the opinion that their way is the best way….when really it goes against all professional standards, and has gotten them more complaints from people outside of our department than literally the rest of the people who have ever worked in the department combined. I trust them less than I trust student employees right now, to be honest. So that’s exhausting on a different level than usual.

      They’re on their last chance before a PIP, and honestly, I know we’re supposed to be rooting for people to pass their PIPs, but they are such an energy vampire in addition to everyone else, that I can’t help but cross my fingers that they dig their own grave and don’t pass the PIP.

    3. Pam Adams*

      Academic advising here- exhausted. I spent the summer between orientation and last year’s freshmen who didn’t adjust well and were in academic difficulties.

    4. Princess Peach*

      I’m an academic librarian in currently popular field and support students & teaching faculty in departments that our university administration really likes. My experience seems to be very different from the front-facing librarians in more traditional and/or less career-oriented fields, and definitely different from the back end people handling systems, metadata, etc.
      The different treatment rightfully causes resentment, and that seems likely to grow.

      The insistence on talking about all the things in all the circumstances and then making zero progress is definitely an issue here too. Maybe we’re colleagues, haha.

      The students are either fantastic and wonderfully engaged or else deeply apathetic and wholly uninterested in learning. I have an informal theory on what causes that beyond the general state of the world. I was part of the generation told, “Go to college if you don’t want to flip burgers for the rest of your life!” So I went to college, and then 2008 happened. I had a humanities field BA and really struggled for a while, but I saw friends in engineering, computer science, and medicine do quite well for themselves.

      I suspect many people had that experience and told their kids and niblings to pursue STEM degrees. Now, the Gen Z kids are buying into a variation of the same lie. “Get a STEM degree if you want to make any real money!” That’s not any more accurate than the burger thing the Millennials got, but it’s led to a lot of people pursuing degrees they have no interest in or aptitude for. The ones who want to be there are great, but the ones going deep into a debt for a future they don’t want are very unhappy and checked out.

  12. Less Bread More Taxes*

    I’m severly underperforming in my new role – how do I behave in team meetings?

    I’m normally a pretty extroverted and bubbly person at work. I enjoy getting to know my coworkers, and I enjoy spending a minute or two discussing something other than work before team meetings. However, I feel like that kind of behavior is inappropriate when I’m underperforming as badly as I am.

    I started this role a few months ago, and my manager and I have been working on my performance, but he’s rightfully not happy with me. I won’t waste time with specifics, but I’m really trying, and during one-on-ones, I am serious and humble. But during team meetings, where everyone else is pretty relaxed and jovial, I don’t know how to act. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but I feel like if I let loose, my manager is going to think I don’t understand how serious my underperformance is. I also feel horribly guilty for even smiling during team meetings because I feel like I’m not taking my lack of work seriously. It also feels horrible being in a setting where it’s obvious everyone else is having a good time and performing well besides me.

    How do I mentally manage this? Anyone have any anecdotes or advice to share?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      Oh, this sounds really tough, I’m sorry. Honestly since it sounds like there’s a lot of transparency in the situation, could you flag this for your manager? “I know the team is light hearted during meetings, but I don’t want you to think I’m not taking this feedback very seriously,” or something …?

    2. Tio*

      A team meeting is a place to be friendly and pleasant. I wouldn’t think it’s weird for a report to be friendly and pleasant in a team meeting even if they were underperforming – honestly I’d rather have that than them sitting there like a raincloud all somberly and making people feel off.

      Now if you’re going for, like, life-of-the-party level outgoing, that might be a little over the top.

    3. Goddess47*

      Since it’s a team meeting and (I assume) your manager is present, maybe you could take on a role that makes you focus on the meeting instead of the non-work discussions. You could volunteer to take notes, organize the agenda, (I’m thinking making coffee/tea would not be a good option), or something that lets you interact with some others but lets you say, “Good to see you. We can talk later because I need to do X.”

      It lets you step up your performance and show your work ethic without cutting off your team members.

      And everyone else may not be performing well, they’re just better at covering it up.

      Good luck!

    4. EngGirl*

      I think the biggest thing is to think about what extroverted and bubbly looks like for you. You can be those things and also be serious. One of my favorite coworkers ever was an incredibly warm, enthusiastic person who also got her work done and done well.

      But if extroverted and bubbly on you looks like delaying meetings with side chatter or making jokes/comments that are of the “Ugh Mondays” or “TGIF” variety I would try to curb that kind of thing.

      I had a direct report on a PIP come in three hours late one day and when I asked him what had happened he said he’d partied too hard the night before and laughed about it. We had to have a conversation about understanding the seriousness of the situation.

    5. I Can't Even*

      It can be hard to remember that our self-worth is not tied to our work or our output. Having small talk before a meeting is professionally normal, spending time chatting outside of meetings maybe not so much when you have a lot of work that you need to get done.

    6. ecnaseener*

      I understand the desire not to joke about the work itself, or at least the parts you’re doing poorly on. But on the flip side, I worry that being the only serious one in the room could read as sulking. So at minimum I’d say smile at others’ jokes and join in when chitchat is happening.

    7. hi there*

      There has to be something you enjoy about the work to be able to sustain it. Ask questions the way you are (not disrupting work), meet your coworkers, be free. During the core content, switch it up: take notes and ask clarifying questions only where you need it. Resume pleasantries after the meeting.

    8. ThunderKitten*

      You don’t have to initiate a topic of conversation, but maybe make it focused on others, rather than yourself. “Hey, how’s it going – any plans for the weekend ?” “Hey, how is the project you mentioned coming along ?”, type of stuff. And as others mentioned, it is okay to smile at people’s jokes, and reply to questions/comments. I wouldn’t initiate much on my own though.

    9. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      I would try matching the camaraderie level of the team in the meeting without being at the upper or lower end (e.g., you don’t have to sit there stoically — you can participate in the chit chat before the meeting starts but don’t begin the chit chat or extend it if looks like the meeting organizer is ready to begin). Don’t be the one always cracking jokes but you can smile at the ones other give. Focus on being professional – staying engaged with the meeting and ready to respond when it is your turn to contribute.

    10. purple distractions*

      This is a really interesting question!! Thanks for bringing it up. I’ve thought about it a bit from the perspective of having colleagues who are well-liked and good with people but are not great at their jobs, but not but much effort into thinking about it from the other perspective. I don’t hold it against him that he’s one of the more active posters on the group-wide social Slack, because the whole thing is so inactive that it’s like 2 posts a week. He’s visibly more enthusiastic about our off-site activities than most of us un-fun lumps but… actually I don’t see it as weirdly off topic, I feel like one of the mismatches that has made him difficult to integrate onto the team has been different communications style (and needling to spell out exactly what we want otherwise we don’t get it), and it’s probably in his best interests to make sure we all like him socially, otherwise we’d have less patience for him for giving us work that was only nominally complete. So it’s kind of working for Fergus. But I know he’s doing it. Or maybe he not doing it really, it’s just the way he is, socially enthusiastic and with very particular quirks as a team member. But thanks for making me consider what it would be like to be him. I’m sorry you’re not sure if it’s ok to try to have a good time at work. I think it is, but socializing more in terms of showing that you care about the happiness of the people you’re working with, definitely try not to have the aura of “well the job stinks but at least the people are nice”

  13. Lame Duck*

    I work for a nonprofit that is in the process of closing. However, nonprofits can take a long time to close, even a year or more, and the right grant could change the trajectory. However, I’m trying to leave and expecting I’ll be let go in February if I don’t quit first. The mission of the org is good, just too niche IMO. The issue is, we still have a lot of needs as we wind down, and I’ve really lost motivation to work weekends/evenings knowing that I’m going to be out of a job soon. I do still care about the work, and I want to end things on good terms and have a good reference, but I don’t want to lose my own vacation being called back in to put out fires, or handle things over the weekend in the hopes of that big grant (which I don’t think is super realistic). What’s the right balance here, and how can I express it diplomatically when I decline to go above and beyond right now?

    1. MsM*

      “I’m sorry, I can’t cancel my plans for this.” That’s it. If you can sense some of these fires coming, maybe do what you can to stress in advance that you won’t be available so the work can get done (or at least be in a place where anyone can take it over the finish line) before it becomes an issue. But it’s okay to set work/life boundaries. And if you get pushback for that because you haven’t before, you can either explain that you’ve realized it’s not healthy or just stick to “I’m sorry; I really, really can’t this time.”

    2. A non-mouse*

      It sounds like there is some stuff going on in life right now that makes working nights/weekends/during vacation unfeasible for the foreseeable future. That the life stuff happens to be you deciding to hold a firmer boundary is besides the point.

    3. I Can't Even*

      They are closing, what is the worst that happens if you dont do extra unpaid work? Fire you? This is going to happen anyway. Work your wage, do your hours no more, no less.

    4. Kitten*

      I’m have 17 years in leadership in a nonprofit and it should not be the norm to work nights and weekends. Don’t do it for a failing organization and just tell people you are setting limits. Your 40 hours (35 really) and leave. This expectation is not ok.

    5. hi there*

      Oof. When we had a major project close, we were very up front about expectations for folks who would be laid off (and managed ours as the continuing staff). If they haven’t had that consideration for you already, then feel free to initiate it – let them know that as the org winds down, you are no longer able to provide more than contract hours (40/wk). Ask for their help prioritizing their goals. It sounds like the grant is a priority; if so, it should be worked on during your regular business hours. In non-business hours, prioritize whatever you want! :)

    6. Frieda*

      Having recently gone through this as a board member – it’s hard, and the illusion of “maybe one big push will right the ship” can be hard to let go of.

      Unless you have programming or events that need to happen on evenings and weekends, and that’s part of your job, you should 100% stick to regular working hours. You didn’t cause this mess (even if you worked there as it unfolded) and it’s a trap to think that if everyone just works extra extra hard the inevitable won’t occur.

      Honestly I blame the “let’s throw a big fundraiser and save the school/hospital/park/llama playground” trope in pop culture for a lot of magical thinking around nonprofits.

    7. Alternative Person*

      Ruthless prioritization of work during contract hours. Work with your bosses to put in timelines/make templates/archive documents/make resources (or factsheets) that can be easily mailed to tide clients over before you’re back in the office/etc. For things like off hours and holidays, emphasize being busy with family related things

      Realign expectations with outside people as much as possible.

      Make yourself as inaccessible during your off time as possible. No phone notifications, no five minute e-mail checks. Use the ‘do not disturb’ function. Set an out of office message directing people to your bosses/other appropriate person.

      If you are going to do work in your off time (not that you should), focus on very limited scope as in ‘I can prepare this data report that uses publicly available information but otherwise I don’t have time this weekend.’

    8. Hyaline*

      Are you in a position you could quit before zero hour, even without something else lined up? I’d strongly consider it if you can—giving yourself a breather after what has to be a stressful situation and then focus on what’s next. I realize I’m sidestepping your question on the finer points but maybe a firm “this is no longer my problem” outlook—with final date—could help?

      1. Emily of New Moon*

        No, I found it in a comment in a letter that I was linked to from one of yesterday’s letters! I was like OMG THAT’S TODAY!!!!!!!

        1. RC*

          Omg, same! It was a suggested article a week or two agao. Kind of wondering if there’s an update (although, it’s been approximately 700 years since 2018 so in all likelihood one or both of them aren’t even at the same job anymore…)

  15. Compliments*

    I am coming to the end of an 18 month stint on a project which I have, um, smashed. It had earned $7k in 18 months when I started, and nobody was speaking to anyone. In the 18 months I’ve been leading it, we’ve brought in $250k. I did this through things that seemed stunningly obvious to me like, “what if we we had a marketing strategy” and “suppose I ask the stakeholders what they want” but since this hasn’t been done before, everyone thinks I’m an absolute genius.

    So my question is: what’s a gracious way to handle compliments?! Ive usually been a solid colleague, well-liked by immediate peers and considered reliable by management. I’ve never been in a situation where people are stopping meetings to go, “what you’ve achieved is absolutely outstanding” and I don’t really know what to do with myself! I’m mostly kind of smiling and quickly changing the subject. If it was obviously a team effort, I would say that, but I was really the only person directly working on it, so it doesn’t really ring true! So— what do I do instead?

    1. NaoNao*

      If you can credit anyone who helped, I think this is a really gracious way to go–“Oh, I have to credit so and so as well, they really helped out with X”. If you did it all by yourself, maybe offering to share tips and best practices–like “oh, anytime you want to collab, I’m here” or something.
      Leaving all that aside, I’d go with either a “thanks so much!” and then a “make sure you let my boss know” if you’re friendly or a casual workplace and that type of positive feedback would make a difference.

      1. A non-mouse*

        +1 to this – when you can, give shout-outs to whoever helped, especially if the helper works with the person making the comments. This way some of the accolades splash onto the others involved in the process, and it incentivizes those folks want to work with you again in the future.

        Other options:
        – “Thanks! I’m looking forward to what this project delivers going forward.”
        – “Thanks! It was a pleasure working with the team, and everyone should be happy with what we accomplished.”
        – “Thanks! I’m glad we were able to meet and exceed the stakeholder expectations!”
        – “Thanks! I have some ideas on where we can go from here and I’m excited for the future of this project.”

    2. Tio*

      “Thank you! I’ve been really excited to be able to use my skills so effectively here and have really enjoyed bringing this to life! I’m excited to see where this goes from here!”

      Don’t oversell – you don’t want to set expectations too high – but happiness and “I’m glad to do this” vibes get the best response.

    3. T. Wanderer*

      Some sort of canned thanks+deflection? “Thank you, I’m glad we’ve had such great results/it’s been a fantastic experience on this project! Back to topic…”

    4. Pomegranates*

      “Thank you, I’m happy to see how well it has worked out.” or “Thank you, I’m really proud of this.”

      Essentially, thank them, low key acknowledge that you are happy with the work too, and move on.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Say “thank you!” If you want, you can say “thank you” and then move on with a subject change.

      If feel like their compliments deserve a little more before you change the subject, you can try:

      “Thank you! I’ve documented some of the most successful strategies so our future projects can be just as successful. [subject change]”

      “Thank you! I’m glad the project turned out to be so successful! [subject change]”

    6. spcepickle*

      If you are female – practice saying thank you!
      We (females) are socialized to undersell ourselves and share the credit. Sometimes this is great and I think part of what make many of us good managers. But there are times like this when you did smash it and it needs to be made obvious how well you did.
      When someone compliments you about this great achievement say – Thank you it has been a great project, or thank you it has been worth all the hard work, or thank you I am really proud of what has been accomplished.
      There is no need to deflect here – you did something that others could not do, let that moment land.

      1. Kusaga*

        Yes this! You don’t have to be a braggart but own your accomplishment gracefully and move on. “I appreciate you saying that and I was glad my contributions turned out so positively for the org.”

    7. Ostrich Herder*

      First of all – you really did smash the project, that’s amazing! Own it as much as you comfortably can, seriously.

      If you’re feeling like there needs to be more than just a “thanks” and a subject change, I wonder if you can cite the project itself, in the same way you might ordinarily share a little credit with the team. Something like “That’s so kind, thank you! It’s been great to work on a project with [advantage you leveraged to help absolutely crush it]!” Doesn’t devalue your skills, and in my line of work, at least, that kind of statement can get you put on projects with similar strengths in the future, and line you up for another home run.

      1. Grey cat*

        Seconding this! You want to underscore skills that will get you future projects you want because that’s what people will start associating you with.

    8. OtterB*

      If applicable and it doesn’t feel like toadying, you could share praise with the people who allowed you the flexibility to do things that hadn’t been done this way before.

    9. Excel Gardener*

      Don’t undersell yourself! Yes, these are “obvious” in some sense, but it’s actually not so easy to see the obvious and actually implement it when the culture of a project or business has operated another way for a long time. That requires big picture thought and follow-through that not everyone has.

    10. learnedthehardway*

      Accept the accolades graciously! Seriously – what is obvious to you is NOT obvious to other people. You deserve your success!!!

      If you can acknowledge other people’s contributions, definitely do so, but don’t underplay your own role in the success.

  16. mondaymoos*

    My friend offered to be my reference and… when they told me what they said to the hiring manager… it was a little too honest.

    For example, “her greatest strength is speaking truth to power and being straightforward, and it’s probably her greatest weakness too. It has caused her to run into problems with some leaders.”

    Am I wrong in thinking that references should sing your praises like you’re the best thing since sliced bread? And that if this is the person you chose to say nice things about you, what would other people in the organization have to say? Or am I overthinking this and this is a completely reasonable statement for a reference to give?

    1. pally*

      Personally, I would place greater weight on the veracity of the reference who gave the honest assessment. Someone who is too wonderful (according to their references) would have me wondering what they were hiding.

      I hired one of those “too good to be true” candidates once. Big mistake.

    2. Seven times*

      You are not wrong. Especially with this one. There are so many ways that this could be framed as the positive trait that it is.

      Is your reference a friend or a “work friend”? Because if it’s the former, it may matter less and you may be able to show that you understand the different dynamic in effect in a work environment.

      However, I think you’ve learned that this person is no longer a good reference.

    3. Nonanon*

      Honestly, I think that’s a reasonable statement; I personally find a candidate whose references ONLY have good things to say about them just as much of a red flag as those who don’t say anything good about them. Interviews ask about strengths and weaknesses, and if you’re good you include how you’re improving on your weakness. I would expect a reference to do something similar.
      In your example, I would have left off the “problems with leadership” bit, and resolve with something like “It does sometimes cause issues with coworkers, and she resolves them by allowing coworkers to be clear, honest, and straightforward with her as well.”

      1. Seven times*

        Getting that balance is the job of a good hiring official/reference checker. Answering in an honest way that still highlights the candidates strengths is the job of a good reference.

        This reference didn’t show the judgement that an applicant should be looking for.

    4. PintO'Luna*

      I don’t think you’re overthinking at all. I would ask them not to say that or find another reference.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      I think this is weirdly phrased but I don’t think that the point of references is to make you look as good as possible–the point is to give your next prospective employer some idea of you as an employee. That’s why you don’t ask just anyone to be your reference.

      1. mondaymoos*

        Well, yes, the “purpose” of a reference from the employer’s side is to find out about their employee. But from my end the “purpose” of choosing my references is for them to give me a glowing reference. Which, since we were recruiters together, I would think this person understood. I think it’s fair that I won’t use them as a reference moving forward, I just hope I haven’t derailed what sounded like was going to be an offer coming my way.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          That’s what I’m saying, though: Your expectations about this, as far as my experience goes, are not what it means to everyone else.

          1. Hiring Mgr*

            That’s not universal though, I feel the same as Mondaymoos – if someone is asking me to be a reference and I agree to it, I’m going to 100% make them look as good as possible.

        2. ampersand*

          Did you have other references? Any idea what they said?

          I would hope this one reference saying what she said wouldn’t be a deal breaker, especially if it was tempered by what your other references said.

          1. mondaymoos*

            I did give two other references, but none from this particular (prestigious) company (that probably is the reason I’m being looked at as a candidate). I did tell them if they needed additional references not to hesitate to reach out, though. And I will definitely be more blatant about my expectations if I have to find another.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      Personally I won’t give a reference unless I can 100% recommend the person. If I’m expecting a reference call, I’ll usually ask the candidate beforehand if they want me to emphasize anything, avoid anything, etc.

      1. mondaymoos*

        The same from my end. If someone asks me for a reference and I wouldn’t enthusiastically recommend them, I explain to them that I’m not the best person for them to use. Which is why I was so shocked! But when we were chatting, he seemed so casual about what he said, I was second guessing my thought process.

      2. Orv*

        I would have to be either 100% willing to recommend them, or I’d have to hate them and want to sabotage them. I don’t think I’d accept being a reference for someone I was lukewarm on.

    7. Joielle*

      Personally, I only list people as references who I am 100% certain will sing my praises like I’m the best thing since sliced bread, yeah. And when I’m called for a reference, I likewise sing my colleagues’ and friends’ praises like they’re the best thing since sliced bread. But I have close relationships with all of these people and they’ve been my mentors and friends throughout my career so we genuinely do think the absolute world of each other, professionally and personally.

      It sounds like this friend is not very diplomatic or well-attuned to business norms, if they thought that was a great thing to say in a reference call. There’s definitely a way to say the same thing in a way that would be a lot stronger. It’s not the worst comment on Earth but I would also be peeved if I were you!

    8. Yes And*

      I’m on the team that says that this is a normal and acceptable thing for a reference to say — *if it’s true.*

      Do you recognize yourself in this description? If so, I’d recommend keeping this reference, and also making this your answer if you’re asked about your weaknesses. Not only are you straightforward and honest, but you’re also self-aware!

      If you don’t recognize yourself in this description, is that a conversation you can have with your friend? Why do they perceive you this way if it isn’t true?

      1. mondaymoos*

        Oh, no, this is 100% true, and even something I touched on a bit during the interview. The position is for a DEI Officer for an organization that has never had a DEI program in the past, and I was pretty clear that support from leadership is the #1 factor in success for equity programs, and that I will call out problematic behaviors behind closed doors without hesitation.
        I’m just concerned that the way it was communicated implies that I don’t understand tact or that I will shut down someone in a public forum. Hopefully I’ll have an update next open thread…

        1. Yes And*

          In that context, I think the “negative” your reference gave isn’t even all that negative. You know better than I do that fearlessly speaking truth to power is a core requirement for a DEI officer, and 1,000 times so for a founding DEI officer. I see the “negative” your reference gave as the DEI equivalent of “her weakness is she’s too dedicated to her work.” And if the hiring team doesn’t see it that way, I have a hunch you don’t want this job.

          Good luck!

          1. Yoli*

            I disagree, especially if OP is a white person (as most of the commenters here are, so not an unreasonable assumption). As a Black woman, I’d be wondering if the negative part of the reference meant this person is focused on lecturing other white people with no self-awareness of their own biases and behaviors (à la Tim Wise or Robin Do Angelo). Since it’s a new program, the hiring manager may be wondering if the OP has the skills/tact to build buy-in and call people in.

            Speaking more generally, I’d probably ditch this reference, or go back to him and say, “Thank you for being a reference. I was thinking about what you shared and worried they may interpret X as…”

          2. Etchings*

            I don’t exactly agree that it is a DEI’s responsibility to fearlessly speak truth to power. In an ideal world, this is crucial to the job, but this only goes ok when bosses are halfway reasonable, and unfortunately so many bosses are so toxic they’ll slap a target on your back that could be disastrous for you. It’s essential for DEI to speak truth to power, be brave and take risks, but not fearlessly. With lots of bosses (including many who seem reasonable), you should proceed with extreme caution. Some bosses say or believe they want you to do your DEI job but they actually don’t want you to do the job, in fact they’ll start hating on you for doing it, and you have to protect your safety and security as well as look out for others. Also, a lot of DEI professionals come from marginalised groups, which adds to their vulnerability.

    9. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would be totally fine if someone gave that assessment of me, personally. As a reference checker I want to get a better picture of the person, and I get a little uncomfy if no one can name a single weakness they have.

    10. Jane Bingley*

      So-called negative feedback can sometimes be a positive! I landed my current position because my old boss was honest about the fact that I struggle to work under a hierarchy and tend to go a bit rogue. My new boss was looking for exactly that trait – a high level of independence, even if it means making mistakes sometimes. Having your references be honest is a plus because it helps them decide whether you’ll be a good fit. Weaknesses aren’t evil, and different workplaces can accommodate different weaknesses and even make some of them into strengths.

    11. WantonSeedStitch*

      You can ask the friend what kind of impression they think that kind of reference would leave with the hiring manager. It might be that the hiring manager is looking for someone with the courage to speak up and possibly be a force for change. They might be fed up with a previous employee who never had their own ideas and just went along with what everyone else said.

    12. Irish Teacher.*

      I’ve never interviewed so probably take my answer with a large pinch of salt, but personally, I feel it would depend on the full context. I can imagine it being said in a way that indicates you are a strong dynamic person but perhaps a little tactless, which wouldn’t be the worst or in a way that indicates you are impossible to manager and I think how I took it would depend on what else they said. If they also gave examples of good work that you did that involved collaboration and spoke of your support for your teammates and so on, I’d be inclined to think, “OK, this person might be a little blunt but we all have our flaws” whereas if they hedged on how you got on with teammates or gave examples of successes that involved a lot of bulldozing, I’d be more likely to think, “pass.”

    13. Bess*

      I like it when people are more honest when I’m reference-checking. This would raise my attention, for sure, but I think it would depend on the tone. I’d check it against what showed up in the interview and make an interpretation. I think I’d ask for an example of a problem and judge the example as well.

      Maybe it does verge on being a little closer to mixed, though. I don’t think you want to change what they’ll say about you, but could ask to make sure it sounds more like they’re commenting on what they might see in you if hired, vs. “hey be careful.”

    14. Qwerty*

      Blunt phrasing, but as a hiring manager I want to know strengths and weaknesses. In general, those are usual two edges of the same coin.

      Your friend’s statement could easily be said about me as well so I usually bring it up some way in the interview, because I know my boss and I need to have strong trust and that candor needs to go both ways.

    15. Random Academic Cog*

      Someone used me as a reference for multiple jobs and I REALLY didn’t want to respond. One recruiter left several messages before catching me off-guard after business hours one day. After I basically refused to answer the first couple of questions, she acknowledged that I was clearly uncomfortable. She then proceeded to tell me the client was pretty firm on hiring the candidate, but my feedback would help them put in the right supports to make this a positive experience. And then she asked me such pointed, detailed questions it was obvious someone else had given a brutally honest reference and I was able to fill in some additional context. You never know where these conversations are going to go.

  17. Sugarholic Teacher*

    Hi all you lovely people, looking for some advice or maybe insight as to if I’m overreacting.

    I have a friend who’s the very outgoing type. She will strike up a conversation with anyone next to her on the train, at a theater, etc. She always tells them she’s a teacher. She probably knows that most people love young children and admire teachers, so it’s an easy way to spark conversation and positive attention. However, it is not technically true. She works at a private preschool/day care as a classroom aide. In public schools, we would call these paraprofessionals or paraeducators. There are people at her workplace called “early childhood teachers” or “lead teachers,” and her role is to assist them. She does not have a teaching license, she never studied or majored in education, and she never took any of the certification exams which are required to become a teacher.

    I myself am a teacher — a licensed one with a master’s degree — so it drives me batty that she talks about herself this way (especially to random strangers). Early childhood education is a very important field and I know how challenging her work is. I don’t mean to suggest otherwise. Her community is endlessly grateful for the long hours and dedication she puts in. But it rubs me the wrong way that she doesn’t just tell the truth that she is an aide/assistant. Her job is not subject to the same stressors that teachers’ are, such as state tests and continuing education requirements. I know most people here aren’t teachers, so the nuances may be lost here, but a paralegal wouldn’t call themselves a lawyer. A physician’s assistant would not call themselves a doctor.

    Something similar happens with another friend of mine. When people ask her “what do you do?” she tells them she’s a “writer.” But she’s actually unemployed, and what she writes is mostly fanfiction. Why not just be honest that she’s a stay-at-home dog mommy and writing is her hobby?

    I haven’t addressed this with them directly. I don’t want to upset them. Maybe they feel insecure about their credentials or experience. “Teacher friend” has a habit of exaggerating in other aspects of her life (she used to claim that she’d traveled to countries that she really hadn’t, or met celebrities that she really hadn’t), so this is probably just another manifestation of that. But I also don’t want to keep internally rolling my eyes every time I’m at a social event with them and the subject of work comes up.

    Does anyone else have friends who do this? Or if you found out someone you knew had been doing this, how would you handle it? Would you even bother to say anything?

    1. AnxietyRat*

      I would not personally address this with either friend. I would actually suggest you look internally as to why the job title she says bothers you so deeply. I assume that telling random people you meet that you are a “teacher” as opposed to clarifying “I am an aide, not a fully licensed/formally educated teacher” is just much easier for her sake, not some sort of stolen valor situation.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I’d let it go. It’s annoying but unless they’re trying to get something (more than an ego boost) based on false qualifications, it doesn’t really matter.

    3. mondaymoos*

      I don’t see a problem with this, since going into a detailed explanation of the work they do and how it’s different from a fully credentialed professional is something most people are not interested in the context of a casual conversation. If they were doing this at a conference where the difference is already easily understood, I might feel differently.
      It seems like you’re irritated with this person because they have a habit of exaggerating all the time, not just in these instances and only you can decide if you want to continue that relationship. I would not mention it to them if you value their friendship.
      For the person who’s unemployed, no one wants to introduce themself that way or be the downer of the conversation. Introducing themselves as a writer is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, even if it’s “just fanfiction.” I might have a little more empathy for them.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        I agree with this. I liken telling strangers on a train she’s a teacher about the same level as me telling people who aren’t familiar with California that I’m from Los Angeles… like meh, they’ve never heard of the actual city I’m from so LA is close enough and they don’t need to know any more details.

        When I was a freelance graphic designer, I was really put out when people joked that meant unemployed, even if I wasn’t currently working with a client on a project. I’m a graphic designer by profession no matter where my computer is located or what project I’m working on, and I would think the same thing for a writer.

    4. Morgan Proctor*

      WHOA, hol up, you don’t get to police what people write and whether or not that makes them a writer! I’m a professional writer, like actually professional, 9-5 full time salaried writer job, and fanfic writers are absolutely writers!! SO many authors that you’ve probably heard of got their start in fanfic. But even if you never writer anything beyond fanfic, you’re still a writer!

      Likewise, you need to let this teacher thing go! Like, who cares? The only thing it’s hurting is your ego. Your “paraprofessional” friend calling themself a teacher doesn’t make you less of a teacher. This rant makes you seem like the insecure one. A paraeducator is still an educator. It’s right there in the word! Take Elsa’s advice and let it go.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            A writer writes. Period.

            Published novelists don’t get paid until their novels are finished. And they have to write several books before they sell one, usually. They’re writing the whole time. This applies to indie authors as well; the product has to be written before it can be sold.

            As for fanfic, it can springboard into something else. There are also established authors who have written licensed expanded-universe works for franchises, which is arguably official fanfic.

            1. NancyDrew*

              Just to clarify, “published novelists don’t get paid until their novels are finished” is objectively untrue. Depending on my contract I’m either paid in fourths (1/4 on signing, 1/4 on delivery of first draft, etc.) or in thirds. Either way I’m getting money up front. (Four books here, and just signed a two-book deal.)

              I’m actually with the commenter here. I don’t think you can call yourself a writer until you’re earning some income from it. But that’s just me!

          3. Evan Þ*

            Everyone who writes is a writer.

            Some writers get paid for it.

            A very few of them get paid enough to live off of.

            1. Despachito*

              The people were asking about their profession.

              If I write/garden for pleasure I would never classify myself as a writer/gardener. That’s a hobby, not a profession.

            2. Despachito*

              I respectfully disagree.

              Not everyone able to put together a few lines deserves the title of a writer.

            3. Despachito*

              Am I a cook because I cook sometimes?

              Am I a cleaner because I do household chores?

              Am I a driver because I drive my car?

    5. Nicosloanica*

      “Something similar happens with another friend of mine. When people ask her “what do you do?” she tells them she’s a “writer.” But she’s actually unemployed, and what she writes is mostly fanfiction. Why not just be honest that she’s a stay-at-home dog mommy and writing is her hobby? ” – wow. It sounds like you don’t like this person at all. It doesn’t take that much empathy to understand why someone might want to make as good an impression as they can when they first meet somebody and don’t feel compelled to put themselves in a bad light out of radical honesty. She probably does hope to be an author even if she currently isn’t having much traction. I can understand more being privately irked with the other one because that affects your standing more.

      1. Not friendly*

        LW doesn’t like either of these people, so why does she refer to them as friends, and why is she writing to AAM about them?

      2. Everything Bagel*

        Yeah, my jaw dropped when I got to the second friend. I would say the letter writer is not much of a friend at all making remarks like that.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          Ha, I just realized I referred to Sugarholic as the letter writer. Anyway, I hope you consider your relationships with these people and why you find what they say about themselves so troubling.

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            I usually refer to the people who start threads/ask for advice in the comments as the LW just ’cause it’s the term I generally use here and I think people will understand. I sometimes use their names, but if it’s a long one or if the thread is long and I can’t be bothered scrolling back, I just say LW.

      3. Mad Harry Crewe*

        So, Sugarholic also thinks that people who garden on the weekends aren’t gardeners; people who go on long walks in nature aren’t hikers; and the only real bicyclists are bike messengers.

        You live in a strange world where the only valid claim to something is to be a professional at it. Most people aren’t professionals at most of the things they do. A fanfic writer is a writer, full stop. Someone involved in the teaching profession, including a paraeducator, is not stealing valor if they refer to themselves as a teacher in casual conversation with strangers.

    6. reallydoesnt matter*

      I wouldn’t care in the slightest. They’re saying it to random people they meet once and never again, why do they need to explain the nuances of their particular qualifications? I don’t understand why it bothers you, unless you need to feel superior because you have a master’s degree and continuing education requirements.

      1. Lisa*

        Agreed, this comes across as very judgmental. If the teacher friend is often lying or exaggerating, why are you still friends? That sounds like someone who I would consider to not have similar values to me and wouldn’t want to spend time with them. That said, saying you’re a “teacher” isn’t a crime just because you don’t have specific licenses. It’s not like claiming to be a doctor or lawyer where specific credentials and behaviors are required. Yes, states often have licenses and such, but it’s not to the same degree, where a doctor or lawyer practicing without being licensed can face criminal penalties. If part of her job is teaching kids, then she’s a teacher. It’s also easier to explain. People know what a paralegal or a physician’s assistant is, but a teacher’s aide may have duties that run the gamut from making copies to covering the class while the teacher is occupied with one student (or the other way around). If she’s doing the work, just because she doesn’t have the specific title or qualification doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to call herself a teacher.

        As for the writer, do you know how much grief people, especially women, can get when they say they’re a stay-at-home parent? Instead of having to have a whole conversation about feminism and how they can afford it and whether or not the other person could ever imagine doing it, they can just say “I’m a writer” and not have to get into their entire life story just to satisfy the overweening curiosity of a stranger. And again, she’s doing the work of writing. So she’s not getting paid for it. So what? Many authors don’t get paid, or don’t get paid for a long time. She’s still writing. That makes her a writer.

        I hope this commentor takes some time to do some reflection on why they are so inclined to judge others and not try to understand why someone in that position might say or do something in the way they are, rather than feeling superior about it.

    7. bamcheeks*

      I would really push back on the idea that you can only say you’re a writer if you earn money from writing! Your friend writes and enjoys writing: she doesn’t owe a detailed tax return to anyone she’s chatting to casually.

      1. 900' Jesus crossing*

        ^Thank you bamcheeks.

        Sugarholic Teacher, I think you are overreacting a little bit. People you just met don’t need to know your exact job title, especially when that may cause confusion to the average person on the street.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Yes! She writes, maybe even does it fulltime. That means she is a writer. It can take years before a writer gets published and starts to make money.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          And it’s occurred to me, she may not be mostly writing fanfiction. That may be all she is comfortable showing others right now so she might not mention anything else she is writing, especially if she is planning to submit it for publication, as my experience is that a lot of people seem to think you just “get stuff published” when in reality, it’s not that easy to be accepted, so she might not want people constantly asking “did you hear back yet? Is it getting published?”

          And I certainly wouldn’t consider somebody unemployed to be a “stay at home dog mommy.” The latter implies a choice whereas the former implies actively seeking work and struggling to find it. And in this case, calling her a “stay at home dog mommy” seems a fairly derogatory way to describe somebody who is unemployed but using the time to work on their writing.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This, and as I said above, even indie writers who self-publish have to write before they have something to sell.

            You can’t sell a knitted sweater on Etsy until you knit it!

      3. Scholarly Publisher*

        One of my favorite (and sadly deceased) writers never professionally published anything that I know of. The fact that her available work is all fanfic and that her day job was lawyer doesn’t change the fact that she was a writer.

    8. Nixologist*

      lol.
      leave these people alone. why is it your job to cut everyone down to size? especially if this primarily comes up in surface level interactions with strangers. I often do not give strangers a resume-accurate level of my work history while making small talk. this does not seem to rise to the level of stolen valor.
      has it occured to you that maybe you don’t like your friends very much?

    9. EngGirl*

      Yeah, I’d let this one go. I think the difference between the doctor/lawyer parallel and this situation is that there’s a ton of shows about doctors and lawyers so people are more familiar with the support staff in those profession.

      If she’s with preschoolers she’s probably also referred to as a teacher all day my students and parents since that’s easier for little kids to understand.

      To me this is just a matter of shortening her profession down the same way I say I’m an engineer not my full drawn out job description.

      1. ampersand*

        Exactly—preschool teachers are called teachers for the sake of brevity, for everyone involved.

        I think if you truly like someone you overlook things like this. You may internally roll your eyes when they say they’re a teacher, but it doesn’t rise to BEC levels. And if you don’t really like them, this sort of behavior becomes super grating.

        1. Coconutty*

          Not just for brevity! Preschool teachers ARE teachers. And so is this woman. A paraprofessional/paraeducator is a specific type of teacher, perhaps with different certifications and requirements than other kinds of teachers. And she’s doing a job that is deeply important in early childhood education. OP, I hope you can figure out how to appreciate and celebrate that, or at least let go of your negative feelings about how she describes her job in passing, instead of looking for ways to cut her down to size.

      2. JustaTech*

        Yes to the “short” version of your profession.
        If I meet a person in a random social situation then I might say “I’m a scientist”.
        If I’m with a group of people from a broad range of the sciences/technology/education I’d say “I’m a biologist”.
        I could also say “I’m an immunologist”, but only in a situation where I don’t have to clarify that I’m not an MD.
        If I gave a full description of my area of work/study only people in my industry would have the slightest idea what I’m talking about.

        It’s fine to say the basic version of your profession in social situations, most people aren’t going to understand (or care!) about the details.

    10. Glazed Donut*

      As a former teacher, I’d let it go. She’s likely saying she’s a teacher because that’s easier than saying “oh, I’m an early education classroom aide!” – more people can quickly understand ‘teacher’ than the longer title. As you stated, the general public doesn’t know a whole lot about the differences, so I don’t think she’s misrepresenting herself to strangers in public. I do think it’s odd you are so bothered by this.
      Sounds like you may have more legit gripes about the other claims (traveling, etc) and should focus on those if they bother you so much – but otherwise maybe keep your distance and interact with her less.

    11. Elsewise*

      Honestly, I feel like you’re taking it too personally. Your “teacher” friend tells lies that make her sound more interesting. Because those lies intersect with your real life, you’re feeling like it reflects on you, but in reality, her claiming to be a teacher doesn’t take away from your education any more than her claiming to be friends with Angelina Jolie takes away from people who know her in real life. Given that this is such a broad pattern outside of her work life, do you think saying anything is going to change her?

      As for your other friend, I get the sense that you’re letting your resentment over “teacher” friend bleed into that relationship. You sound pretty dismissive of her (“stay at home dog mommy?” really, you think she wants to introduce herself that way?) and what she does. It sounds like she’s unemployed and grasping at a hobby that sounds like a real job to answer an awkward question. Instead of judging her, why not try building her up?

      My other question, which might not be the advice you’re looking for: why are you hanging out with these people? You don’t seem to like either of them very much, and it sounds like interacting with them is making social events difficult for you. Is this just one issue that you’re at a BEC stage with, or is it time to find new friends?

    12. Ashley*

      In conversations with strangers or people I won’t generally interact with regularly, I would definitely be describing myself as a teacher because going into details isn’t that important. Now if she doesn’t clarify if we start becoming friends and I explain I too am and a teacher and my role / classroom, that is annoying and I will internally judge her. For an unemployed person, I love the writer response because rarely do you want to be judged for not having a job and people are really judgy. (Think about all the random advice pregnant women get from strangers; sometimes it is easier not share the full reality with people you don’t know well.)

    13. Hlao-roo*

      Eh, I get your frustration with this but I think this is something to let go. I have misrepresented certain things for the sake of conversational ease. For example, I see a physician’s assistant for my medical check-ups. I say I’m going to “the doctor’s” and “my doctor told me to XYZ” because it’s easier to say than “I’m going to see my physician’s assistant” and “physician’s assistant told me to XYZ.” I don’t think it harms anyone and it makes the conversation flow better.

      If she wants to have conversations that are surface level focused on working with kids (“kids are cute!” “what ages do you teach?” and similar), and not deep conversations about the educational system (“as an aide, my qualifications are ABC and my job description is DEF. The teachers handle XYZ”) then I can understand why she says “teacher” and not “aide” or “paraprofessional” or whatever is more accurate.

      As for your unemployed friend, she may want to avoid all the “shoulds” people tend to spout when they hear someone is unemployed. “You should apply here,” “you should do a coding bootcamp,” etc.

    14. Joielle*

      I have a sister in law who’s a phlebotomist but tells people she’s a nurse. I just roll my eyes internally and let it go. (And disregard her unsolicited medical advice.)

      1. WellRed*

        This is the way! And, as a professional writer currently juggling multiple things I couldn’t care less to write about, I’m definitely rolling my eyes at that example.

    15. illuminate*

      Is “[topic] eating crackers” a thing? If you like these people and count them as friends, I would try to let it go when they talk about work. It may be irritating to you, but unless they’re getting into a deep discussion about work and what it entails, I don’t think it’s that important to correct them, in private or in public.

    16. MsM*

      As someone whose job title literally contains the word “writer” and also dabbles in a bit of fanfiction in their spare time, I’m perfectly happy to count Friend 2 as a colleague. I’m more sympathetic to your frustration over Friend 1, but I’m sorry to tell you that most people are not thinking about your certifications when they decide whether someone who works with children in a professional setting is a “real” teacher or not, and you probably should focus on addressing the frustrations that are making you upset about not getting proper credit to the best of your ability rather than taking it out on her.

    17. Not A Manager*

      You seem really invested in what strangers think about your friends’ professions. How is this situation harming anyone, or affecting you in any way?

    18. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think you are too invested in what your friends label themselves and are too judgmental and particular . The general public is going to understand a label as teacher or preschool teacher rather than some other preschool label. Heck I am and administrative assistant and I ran into a guy I knew in college and he didn’t even know what an administrative assistant was! (and this guy is in his 30s same as me!). So she may have just found a way how to explain what she does in an easier to understand way.

      Your friend is a writer. Even if she doesn’t get paid she is a writer. As someone who also writes it drives us bonkers when people say that it’s just a hobby. Some people write for several hours a day and treat it like a full time job. Maybe she does just write fanfiction, or maybe she writes other things and just hasn’t told you. You can be an unpublished writer. It is HARD work. Also if she is unemployed she may be looking for work in the writing field. There is also a lot of negative view points about people who are unemployed or stay at home wives/husbands. She may tell people she is a writer so she doesn’t get looked down at.

      In both cases it is not your business to correct your friends.

    19. RM*

      Yeah, this is a little weird since she could just say “I work at a daycare” or “I work with pre-schoolers” or “I work in the toddler room at XYZ school”. These are basically what I said when I was an aide. There’s no need to say she’s a teacher for conversational ease with folks. I don’t think you can really do anything about it. It’s just going to come across as petty. I think she’s probably giving herself a more “official” title because it feels like it matches up with how seriously she takes her job. Also, you can get a degree in early childhood education but “teacher” is not a regulated job title in the same way K-12 is. There are probably quite a few lead teachers who were promoted to from aide due to their experience/skills only.

    20. Angstrom*

      Is who you are and how you earn a living the same thing?
      I mean, I might BE an engineer and be working as a bike mechanic.

    21. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      You are taking this too personally. Your friends are allowed to identify themselves in the way they choose, they aren’t committing any moral transgressions by doing so, and your gatekeeping will not be welcome if you voice it to them.

    22. anotherfan*

      I can’t address the teacher issue — sometimes people use a common generic word because it’s easier to make connections, and then get more specific later in a conversation. If she has a habit of exaggerating her importance, then I think you won’t get much traction bringing it up, but ymmv. It’s a her problem, you don’t really have to warn unfamiliar people on a train that she exaggerates.

      But I would like to comment on the writer thing. Regardless of your personal concern with stolen valor, you may have to expand your parameters when it comes to writing. Fan fic is a range; Shades of Grey, for instance, was Twilight fan fic and is/was a very successful franchise. If she’s writing stuff and selling it or has an audience, she’s a writer. I’ve called myself a writer for years — I’m a journalist, I write every day. I’ve made a living at it for nearly 50 years. I am not, however, a novelist. If you believe that only novelists are permitted to call themselves a ‘writer’ you may be shortselling an entire profession.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Agreed. I’ve been a career tech writer for decades and finished my first fiction script earlier this year. The idea that the script somehow “makes me a writer” is absurd.

        (and to be clear, I’m not saying that’s what you suggested)

        1. anotherfan*

          no, writing is writing. friend of mine has spent years writing a novel — he’s still a writer even though nobody has seen anything but a draft or two. I was trying to explain (apparently poorly) that just because someone isn’t a best-selling novelist, they can still be ‘a writer.’

    23. Donkey Hotey*

      She can’t be a writer because she’s unemployed? LOL. Let me tell you something about writers…
      At the same time, I understand a little of your frustration about the other friend using “teacher” as conversational shorthand compared to your degree and credentialed definition of teacher. But it’s conversational shorthand. No one is going to rush up to her on the street with a teaching emergency.

    24. jenny*

      It’s annoying, but there’s really nothing you can do. Unless you really think you can jump in every time she mentions it and say “she’s not a real teacher”.

      If people care about what your friend is telling them, they’ll likely ask questions and figure out that she’s an assistant/aide. It’s a role your eyes situation.

    25. Associate*

      I’ve worked for decades in libraries but I am not a “librarian.” I’ve never claimed to be a librarian, but when asked what I do, I tell people “I work in a library.” 99% of them then call me a librarian. Even other librarians. Sometimes I use the internal job description, but all people hear is “library,” and they call me a librarian. So I get why people do this. It’s just easier!

    26. RagingADHD*

      I think you have an issue with classifying and assigning value to people according to their career title rather than getting to know them for their passions and pastimes. They are telling new social acquaintances what they care about and how they spend their time, so they can get to know these people better and find common ground. Not reciting a resume to get approval.

      Your teacher-friend refers to herself as a teacher because the children and their parents do. She is not a babysitter. She is not a nanny. Most people in the general public don’t know or care the difference between an early childhood “teacher” and “paraprofessional,” so why should she go into a longwinded explanation that neither side of the conversation cares about – only you, the bystander?

      Your writer friend writes. That is literally what “writer” means. If she said she was a gardener or a knitter would you have the same objection because it wasn’t her full time job?

      People are not their jobs and they are not valuable as humans because of a title, licensing, or accomplishments. It sounds like you are offended because you look down on these people you call friends and resent them acting as if they are your equals. Please do not “address this with them” because it is none of your business, and if you can’t get your head around treating them as your social equals on social occasions, maybe you should get a new set of friends. Perhaps you should spend some time with ones who look down on you, to see what it feels like.

    27. Seashell*

      When parents bring their kid to daycare, they probably say “here’s your teacher”, so teacher is easier for everyone to understand. If people are that interested, they’ll ask where she works and it will all be clear.

    28. tabloidtainted*

      I think “teacher” is just a simple shorthand that everyone can understand, so I wouldn’t be bothers by that.

      I do think it’s funny for someone to respond to a question about what they do [for work] by saying they’re a “writer,” if they write fanfiction as a hobby. I say this as someone who wrote a lot of fanfiction as a young adult.

      1. tabloidtainted*

        And I think folks are overly defensive because you mentioned fanfiction, but if I knit as a hobby, my response to, “What do you do for work?” is not going to be, “I’m a knitter.” There’s a difference between a hobby and a profession. There are many ways your profession can be writing, but fanfiction writing is not a profession.

        1. Orv*

          I understand the hobby/profession distinction. But I also think people feel weird about saying they’re unemployed, so they look for something else to talk about. If you say “I’m unemployed” or “I’m between jobs” you’re going to get reactions ranging from pity to shunning.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Maybe not unless Marvel hires you to write comics (most comics people I know are also fans of the genre), but I’m pretty sure OP has no idea what else the friend may be writing.

    29. NaoNao*

      Wow people are being really harsh here, but I have to say I partly understand where you’re coming from in contrast to everyone being like lol let it go.

      I get that umbrage at “I’m a ‘writer’ because I write…something”–I’m a hobby writer as well but guess what? I would not introduce myself that way as I have a 9-5 and I’m self-published and I can reasonably assume that’s not what the majority of people would think of as a “writer” **as a job** which is how people are asking.

      I think you’re correct technically and linguistically that these people *are* using common understanding and connotation of words and use to kind of “skate by” with job titles that they aren’t 100% doing, like most people would think of “I’m a writer” as “I earn the bulk of or all of my money by writing and being published in some form” not “my hobby is writing”.

      If you ask someone what they “do” it generally means “how do you earn a living” and that’s where the “I’m a writer” thing falls apart for me too.

      On the reality side of it, it is a *touch* uncharitable to begrudge an unemployed down in the dumps friend from fluffing up their life a bit by “manifesting” their dream career so I’d just let them both go and privately eyeroll.

    30. Marian the Librarian*

      I agree with everyone else who’s saying this is just simpler than saying she’s a classroom aide when people ask what she does and potentially having to describe what that entails (and thinking she’s calling herself a teacher for the kudos from strangers is kind of a weird take). It’s just a shortcut to explain to laypeople roughly what her job is.

      I’m a librarian, a manager, and, like you, have a Master’s in my field (required for most folks professionally called “librarians”), and I call my coworkers “librarians” even if they’re technically paras, especially with the public, as in: “The librarian at the desk can help you with X,” “The librarian who hosts storytime on Fridays is Nancy.” I’d just try to let it roll off your back, if I were you.

    31. Lifelong student*

      I have been an instructor at three post high school entities. Two on a part time basis and one full time. Sometimes two at the same time. I do not have an education degree but I do have professional certifcation in my field and a master’s degree. I think I can say I was a teacher! Is that okay, snob?

      1. Germ(an) theory*

        Totally uncalled for and, if I may say so, defensive to an extent that reveals a deep insecurity. It’s never too late to go back and get your BEd!

    32. Sugarholic Teacher*

      Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I certainly didn’t expect to be accused of not liking my friends, LOL. They just have annoying habits and behaviors, like anyone does. The overwhelming consensus seems to be say nothing to them, so I’ll just keep it to myself.

      For the sake of clearing up some misunderstandings in the comments: writer friend is not looking for a job. I know writing can be real work, I’ve written several books myself and dabbled in fanfiction when I was young; but as adults, we all understand what it means when someone asks “What do you do.” It surprised me the first time I heard her say “I’m a writer,” rather than one of the many more commonly used euphemisms, such as “I’m between jobs” or “I’m looking for something in X field” or “I’m in a program studying X.” (She went to grad school but not for writing/English/etc.) But I also don’t see her in person very often, so it’s not a big deal in the end.

      This was the first time I’ve heard the phrase “stolen valor.” So I guess that’s the next thing I’m off to google.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        But you’re the one adding the “in exchange for money” assumption to the question. “What do you do” could just as easily end “…with your time?” She spends her time writing, why is that the wrong answer in your mind?

        I read a really good essay a few years ago that pointed out how presumptive the “what do you do [for work]?” question is. You’re making a pretty specific demand for information, with a whole lot of baggage about class and what kind of answers are acceptable: lawyer, teacher, engineer… not custodian. Not unemployed. Not grocery stocker. Someone asking that question assumes that everyone works a job that carries no stigma, and that’s simply not true.

        “How do you spend your time?” is a question that allows someone a lot more flexibility and choice in how they present themselves, what information they share, and I’m certainly not going to condemn your friend for choosing to answer the politer question when offered a choice.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          Yes this! And not everyone is attaches their job or career to who they are. For some, even if it is a great job and they love it, it may just be work. Afterall, we should (if able to) work to live, not live to work.

        2. Self Employed Employee*

          I was always brought up to never ask someone what they do because it can separate people by class. It was just bad etiquette because it has the potential to embarrass or make someone feel awkward. I still see it as a rude question.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        I’m glad you asked! I also have friends I like a lot who have behaviors I find confusing/annoying, and I’m of the opinion that it’s good to check with someone (family member, different friend, AAM open thread) if it’s a “say something” situation or a “say nothing” situation.

        Also, I didn’t say this explicitly in my first comment, but I too would be surprised if I had a not working (whether by choice or not by choice) friend who answered “what do you do” with “I’m a writer.” It does feel like a technically-correct-but-misleading answer. (She does write and is therefore a writer, but the questioner will assume she makes a living by writing, which isn’t true.) I don’t think it’s worth saying anything to her, but I did want to validate your surprise at her “I’m a writer” answer.

      3. Despachito*

        I would break this down to three parts:

        1) The “teacher” title. This, per se, would be not a big deal for me if she used it as a simplification in small talk where there is no need to be exactly specific. Like, she does work with kids and a lot of people don’t really care about the difference.

        2) However, she has a history of exaggerating other things too, and the above just falls in the same pattern. I would be irked with this, too. I had a friend like this, who would sometimes lie about herself, and it took us a very long time to reveal that. I deeply admired her when I believed her, and the funny thing is that I would have admired her WITHOUT the lies, because she had enough qualities to be admired for. But when I gradually found out about the little lies I was hurt for myself (why did she feel the need to lie even to her good friends?) and sorry for her (I eventually learned – not directly from her – that she had this problem all over her life and was aware of it and sometimes trying to battle it). I must say – irrespective of how it reflects upon me – that I distanced myself mentally from her a bit because of that. I understand she was probably coming from a place of deep insecurity and try not to judge but I couldn’t help how I felt.

        3) your “writer” friend – I see this as a sort of protection from people prying in her intimacy, and if it is the only thing she is not accurate about I’d let it go.

        Unlike many commenters, I don’t think you are the one insecure. I think both of your friends are, and I see where you are coming from. As for advice, I would probably say nothing, roll my eyes internally and distance myself from those people if they didn’t have other redeeming qualities for me.

    33. learnedthehardway*

      I think you’re getting a lot of criticism here that isn’t warranted – esp. with the “teacher” friend who is really a “teacher’s aide”. There IS a real difference in the roles, the qualifications and the education. It IS aggravating that this person is acting as if she is a qualified teacher when she isn’t – especially when she’s falsely claiming qualifications that you actually have earned. And it seems this person has a habit of self-aggrandizement in other areas as well. This isn’t a situation where saying “I’m an X” is a helpful simplification, either, as when people with highly specialized roles tell you they’re a marketer or engineer, or whatever the closest analogue is to their position.

      I wouldn’t bother calling the person out on this but I would also roll my eyes internally.

      As for the “writer”, that sounds like a hobby, not a job. Self-identifying as a writer is less fraught, though, than claiming professional credentials/education/experience. So I would ignore it.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it’s a bit different as she works with the preschool age group. At least in Ireland – I can’t speak for elsewhere – preschool teachers would not necessarily have a B.Ed (the qualification for primary school teachers). As far as I can make out, here the qualifications required for the two jobs would be quite similar with the room leader/class teacher simply requiring something like an additional year? For what I can tell, anybody working in a preschool requires a level 5 qualification in Early Childhood Education or similar and the teachers/room leaders require a level 6. (That may not be 100% accurate as not having any small children, I’m not that familiar with the field.)

        So it isn’t quite the same as primary school where teachers are required to have a B.Ed while SNAs (Special Needs Assistants which are the closest we have to teachers’ aides)…I think there are no qualifications required at all, though in practice, I do not think most schools will hire without a level 5 in Special Needs Assisting or secondary level where teachers are required to have a degree in their subject and a post-graduate teaching qualification (or a degree that includes a teaching qualification).

        Not that I would have any problem with my SNA colleagues describing themselves as teachers anyway.

        1. Winter*

          In Australia, preschool teachers for the two years before school must have a four-year B. Ed specialising in early childhood or a duel primary/early childhood B. Ed. They are registered through the same professional bodies as primary and secondary teachers and subject to all the same requirements.

          Certificate and Diploma qualified educators are titled early childhood educators, however I always just refer to all my staff as ‘teachers’ to the children and parents. They all teach children after all. To me it shows I take the work they do seriously.

          If someone wants to inflate their title a bit to strangers, who cares? It’s hard enough being taken seriously as anything more than a babysitter even using the title of early childhood teacher, let alone educator or similar:

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            Ah, Sugerholic Teacher’s feelings make a bit more sense if it is like the Australian system, but I still agree it’s not worth objecting to and yeah, many people will underestimate the qualifications of all early childhood educators, so I doubt she is getting massive kudos by claiming to be a preschool teacher rather than a preschool aide.

      2. Poppin' in for This*

        I agree with you.

        I have been a working reporter, essayist and news correspondent for 26 years. At some times I was an adjunct professor teaching English. At some points, these two things overlapped; at different points one was full time and one was part time. I always identified myself as a writer since I was getting paid for it. I was also very careful to NOT identify myself as “Professor” in a culture where people outright lied about their credentials to curry favor with students. I have an MA in a related field but NOT a Ph.D.

        Interestingly, perhaps, I took a job as a paraprofessional in a special ed classroom during COVID (desperation) for one school year. It never would have occurred to me to identify as a teacher! I saw how hard the young, amazing teacher worked, how great were her responsibilities, her study for and completion of advanced credentials…that wasn’t me! I was there for a year! It felt a little weird but if anyone asked what I was doing I would say, “I have experience in (see former paragraphs) but I’m currently working as a para at XXX school.”

        I think the “teacher” friend is trying to extend her professional reach. If you’re an aide there’s no way you don’t know the difference.

        1. Cordelia*

          “I have experience in (see former paragraphs) but I’m currently working as a para at XXX school.” yes this is what you should say in an interview situation, but it would surely be a bit of an odd answer to someone making conversation because they are sitting next to you on a train!

          1. Poppin' in for This*

            Good point – I was picturing a dinner party or something. On a train, I’d say I was a teacher’s aide!

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        While I’d be inclined to let the second go, I can see why the first friend is irritating, mainly because she’s got a history of lying.

        Because that’s what this is. They may certainly be harmless in the grand scheme of things–she’s not catfishing or running scams, I take it–but it’s no fun to be lied to. Even, or especially, when it’s pretty damn obvious that they ARE lies and she either doesn’t care about telling you the truth or thinks you’re foolish/gullible enough to believe she’s best friends with Brad Pitt.

        I used to work with someone like this–she didn’t claim friendship with celebrities, but whenever you mentioned something, no matter how banal, she had to one-up it with exaggerations (If you rode the bus, she also rode one that day and had a long conversation in Chinese with an Asian person about physics) and after a while it did get really irritating!

        I’d bet that if your first friend didn’t already have this bad habit, her credential-stretch wouldn’t bother you half as much as it does.

    34. Ellis Bell*

      Trained English teacher here who now works on the “support” side of things. I never used to notice it as a teacher, but since joining an SEN team, It honestly drives me crazy how inaccurate the titles for support staff are; a well trained TA is going to be independently delivering teaching derived from her own training. In my school a TA is responsible for correcting teachers who are not following policies relating to the TAs specialism or training. TA’s also don’t assist the teacher any more than people in other jobs assist each other as a matter of course. It’s the teaching that’s been assisted, not the teacher. Many, many teachers have much less training than their TA’s in things like SEN, EAL and specialist interventions. A TA in an early year’s class is highly likely to know more about early childhood development, while the class teacher is likely to be more of an academic specialist. But your job role is also misnamed! What we call a “Teacher” is usually someone who actually does a lot more than teach (that’s why they need so much assistance in the classroom); I’ve always felt what they do is more accurately called “Classroom manager” or curriculum co-ordinator. Think of all the many things you do, which are not actually teaching, but which the public completely misunderstand because of the inadequate title. It’s the same for classroom assistants. While they actually do a lot of teaching, the title only reflects a tiny part of what they do. All classroom staff, teachers and TAs are undersold in title the same way they are on wages.

    35. Sandwich*

      What exactly bothers you about these two examples? These are social conversations, not interviews, so what actual difference does it make if someone says teacher vs paraprofessional? I’m a former teacher and this would not bother me at all.
      The only way I could see this being an actual issue is if either of them were misrepresenting themselves in a professional capacity, like the paraprofessional friend writing a teaching blog or the writer friend holding a workshop about being a professional writer. But casual conversation on a train or at a party? Not worth a second thought.

    36. Old Plant Woman*

      Retired IA Spec Ed. I have tried to avoid letting people think I’m a teacher because that tends to lead to questions about politics and budgets. Don’t want that because I’m a pretty happy person and want to stay that way. So I say I work in special education. So you’re a teacher? No. Assistant. What’s the difference? Teachers do too much paperwork. I get to spend my time with students. So you teach… way to much work.

    37. Ceanothus*

      If it’s any help, social skills for adult autistic people teaches that the question “what do you do?” really means “is there an aspect of your life you’d like to make small talk about?” — since your interpretation of this question/your friends’ responses is also very literal, would it help you to rephrase their answers as “I’d like to make small talk about the delights and travails of educating young children.” or “I’d like to make small talk about writing.” (and not, for example, pet care.)?

    38. Irish Teacher.*

      Honestly, as a fellow teacher, it wouldn’t bother me. No, being a preschool teacher is not the same as what most people mean by “teacher” and paraprofessionals/SNAs do not fill the same role as teachers, though at the preschool level, I suspect the difference is far less great, as anybody working with a preschooler has a role in educating them.

      At secondary level, where I teach, the difference is far greater, as we are subject specialist experts rather than childcare experts, but I would still have no problem with an SNA referring to herself as a teacher. The good ones do work that really isn’t so different. And, in my view, they are underpaid and undervalued.

      And honestly, if she is saying she is a preschool teacher…well, honestly, even as an educator myself, I don’t know what the difference in qualifications is between a preschool teacher and a preschool aide. Perhaps it’s different where you are, but in Ireland, preschool teachers generally wouldn’t have B.Ed degrees anyway (and obviously not the secondary school teaching qualification as…that would not qualify them in any way for their field). They would generally have qualified in Early Childhood Education or similar and honestly, I don’t think most of the general public would recognise that as being a higher qualification than whatever she has. People just generally aren’t that familiar with the different qualifications between a preschool teacher/childcare assistant/professional nanny. To most people, they are all just people who are qualified to care for preschool children and prepare them for starting primary/elementary school.

      I don’t think what she is doing is really much different than when I tell people my sister is an interior designer. Technically, it’s different (though honestly, I’m not even sure if her qualification is more or less prestigious; I think more, but I don’t really know), but most people would not understand her precise qualification and job and quite frankly I don’t understand it and to most of us not in that field, anything that involves designing interiors is interior design.

      Similarly with your friend, the point is that she works in a preschool. I doubt people much care about her actual job title.

    39. Qwerty*

      We seek professional jobs that suit who we are. Our job does not define us. My family knew from the time I was 5 that I was engineer – even if I never worked a day as an engineer, its who I am and how my brain works. Similarly my sibling chose a field of marketing *because* she is a writer and writing novels rarely pays, so it was a place to apply her craft. Technical her title today is “engineer” because of a re-org but she’d never describe herself that way, just enjoys the salary bump.

      If you don’t like these people, just move on. But don’t denigrate them for not being good enough in your eyes.

    40. oh wow really anon for this one*

      So… I am in a profession where in most states, the title is two words long, and the second word of the title is “Psychologist.” In my state, up until last year or so, instead, legally people in my profession had a 5-word (!) title that ended in the word “Psychology” instead and was usually therefore referred to as an initialism that most people outside of the profession were not familiar with (like if you were a Professional Certified Verified Llama Groomer and usually referred to as a “PCVLG…” no-one would know what that was if they asked you what you did for a job and you answered with that initialism). This was partially because many of us have a Specialist degree (Masters + 20 additional hours) rather than a Doctorate. It was kind of silly because in almost every other state we would have had the simple two-word title ending in “Psychologist.” So I confess that when I met people and shared what I did for a job, I did use the word “Psychologist,” even before I was “allowed” to when the title change was approved in the last year or so. Anyhow, I think “teacher” probably quickly captures the gist for a stranger when your friend answers people that way, just like “Psychologist” did that for me before I technically was permitted to use that title for myself. As for the writer thing, it sounds to me like your other friend is a writer if she spends a bunch of time writing fanfic… not every writer is lucky enough to be able to live on the proceeds of their writing… for example, Seanan McGuire is rather popular, and she started out writing fanfic and definitely had a day job for a long time even after she became well known in the speculative fiction field. I think the story is the same for N. K. Jemisin….

    41. M.Ed.*

      as a fellow teacher with 2 master’s degrees I totally get where you are coming from. i think the people who are suggesting you “look internally” are pretty off base.

      One of the reasons this bothers me is that it surfaces an underlying disrespect for the profession. as you pointed out, as a society we would generally find it odd to have a nurse claim to be a doctor or a paralegal claiming to be a lawyer. But if a daycare provider or paraeducator claims to be a teacher, it raises no eyebrows at all.

      To me it is reflective of an unconscious belief that our profession isn’t really … well, a true profession.

      (that said, I also think the word itself is to blame. after all, we have dance teachers, piano teachers, yoga teachers etc. all using the same word to mean something that’s actually a little bit different in terms of still set and credentials required)

      1. Yoli*

        I disagree with this as a former teacher (still in education and working directly in schools with teachers, paras, IAs, and tutors, fwiw). Outside of education, I would bet your average person doesn’t know what a para is, and the full name literally has “educator” in the title; the same isn’t true for nurse, etc.

        From a union contracts, duties, etc. standpoint, it makes sense *internally* to be clear on the differences in roles, e.g., “Why can’t Ms. Rhonda sub when this teacher is out last-minute?” In my context, most paras, IAs, and preschool aides are WOC, so if OP complained about this publicly, I would roll my eyes and internally be on the lookout for other “Karen-ish” tendencies.

    42. Crest*

      Hmm I would not bother saying anything in either situation honestly. I can see how the first example would be irritating—teaching typically requires a formal education, X number of hours student teaching, a certification, etc. I still wouldn’t actually say anything to my friend but I could see how her “bragging” would bug me if I were in this scenario. And if I were in this scenario, I’d know that it’s on me to be the bigger person and let it the heck go.

      Besides, teachers are getting a lot of flak these days, even more so than usual. And yet your friend is like “sure, let me go up to every Tom, Jane, and Bobby on the street to give them a chance to yell at me about GROOMING!! and TAXES and HOW DARE YOU MAKE MY KID LEARN ABOUT THE RACISM!!!”
      Good for her, I guess? That’s 1 less whack job screaming at an actual teacher, maybe? So if she wants to do that, why bother stopping her?

      For example 2: there isn’t actually a hard and fast rule about who gets to call themselves a “writer.” Stephen Crane is considered a writer (a famous one!) and yet I am STILL very bitter about the time I lost trying and failing to finish reading The Red Badge of Courage in the summer before 10th grade. I’ll never get that time back! Schools are probably still assigning it for summer reading, where are the outraged protests about that?! (There are actually other writers I could have chosen that I hate more, including contemporary ones. But I picked SC because Red Badge was so gosh darn boring).

      So uhh, NO, please do NOT tell your friend that she should only refer to herself as a stay home dog mom who writes on the side. If she wants to refer to herself as a writer and then have to deal with the fact that someone may want to know more about her work, and “all” she has to show for it is 24 AO3 entries of The Bear fanfic, that is row to hoe.

      In conclusion: keep your dang mouth shut

  18. Emmeline*

    My field is technical writing and editing, and I’m employed full time but job hunting now in the US.

    I’m considering contracting jobs (would prefer the type where you are W2 employee for a contracting agency and they shop you around, not the independent type). It’s looking like the market is heavily slanted towards “start as a contractor and then we’ll hire you full time” instead of getting hired as an employee with a probation period.

    What should I look for when evaluating contracting agencies? My friend told me that unpaid mandatory furlough days around holidays are common, as are not getting sick leave. Any other “gotchas” to be aware of?

    Any advice appreciated!

    1. Procedure Publisher*

      I’ve done contract jobs. Most times you get no PTO and no paid holidays. They usually pay you per hour so make sure you know what hourly rate you are looking for.

        1. Clisby*

          The writer was asking about being a W2 employee for a contracting firm; I did that for years, and they took care of all the tax withholding and issuing my W2. I was hourly (by choice), and so didn’t get paid holidays or sick leave. I could get health insurance, but would have had to pay the full premium. This firm also hired salaried contractors; those people got paid vacation/sick leave and subsidized health care.

    3. Wheezy Weasel*

      Contract IT project manager here.
      – Ask for sample contracts from the agency before you start interviewing. You’ll want time to review these for fairness before you have an offer (and the agency potentially breathing down your neck to sign it or the offer expires). Some have ridiculous provisions such as ‘you can’t work for any company we might do business with unless you’ve been off our payroll for 12 months’. A lawyer can help narrow those down to a more reasonable level, and depending on the state, noncompetes might not be enforceable.
      – Know how to approximate a fair market rate for yourself. I’m constantly fending off low-value recruiters ‘this senior PM job pays $60-70hr’ when I know they are billing the client $150, based on colleagues in similar roles at similar companies. Reasonably assume that a contracting agency would pocket 27-40% of what they bill the client and pay you the rest.
      – Know the laws applicable to employees in your state and that you may have to coach a contracting company to follow them, if they are headquartered in another state. A big one, you may not be eligible for federal or state protected family medical leave if there are fewer than 50 employees of that contracting company within 75 miles of the job location. Some states offer limited sick leave or job protection to companies with as little as 1 employee.
      – Ask for references from the contracting company’s current employees and talk to them before accepting any offer. ‘They pay me on time and don’t cause a hassle’ is a decent reference. Contracting companies that constantly want to meet with you and pass along feedback from the client, or ask you to consider other roles all the time, ask for your friends contact info, waste your time trying to find out more openings at the client…not appropriate.

  19. br_612*

    I mentioned this nutbar former coworker who dug through a broken glass container in the comment section yesterday about Lenora, the obnoxiously cheerful coworker expecting everyone to always have a smile on their face. Someone asked me to expand on it so . . . here we are.

    Setting: Government research lab
    Characters: Me – a postdoctoral researcher; Jane – a research assistant

    I’m only including highlights. Buckle up.

    – Our lab had 1 broken glass container. Totally normal. For whatever reason she was putting her used pipets (which were actually plastic, and like 15-18 inches long) in the broken glass container instead of in a regular cardboard box like we were explicitly told we could. One day I broke a piece of glass so naturally put it in the broken glass container. She dug through it, pulled out the broken plate, and left it on my bench with a note to get my own broken glass container. Like . . . what. You could’ve just . . . left the note (that’s still pretty weirdly territorial outside of lab environments I know, but labs are weird).
    – She hoarded the small styrofoam containers reagents were shipped in. HOARDED them. She had dozens and dozens. To the point they were blocking access to the chemical fume hood. Safety came in and told her she had to get rid of them and she proceeded to throw a tantrum at them. I was just standing there, pipet full of buffer in hand, with my jaw on the floor while she screamed and literally stomped her feet. Eventually safety left, but they came back after she left for the day and got rid of them. I was not there when she noticed (she worked 7-3 and I am NOT a morning person) but I bet it was intense.
    – I need to run some blots on the larger system (BioRad Criterion I think) and ordered the premade gels (I usually made my own but we didn’t have the plates or stand for the Criterion). When she realized I planned to use it, she hid the system. It was literally government property and she was hiding it in her office. I even told her I’d only use it on weekends when she wasn’t there and she refused. For this one I told my boss and the branch manager and they both claimed there was nothing they could do (bullcrap I say. Just go in her office and take it and tell her she cannot do that). She didn’t even use it that often! I only needed to use it a few times over the course of a month or two. Instead I had to redesign my experiment and the gels went to waste.
    – My tissue culture incubator died (it was ancient). I asked if I could use hers, which she used for a grand total of 1 month in the 3 years I was there (she mostly did animal work), for a few weeks until a replacement arrived and was calibrated and she yelled at me. So I had to use another lab’s, which meant having to carry a tray full of containers with cells growing in liquid in them that COULD NOT be contaminated through 3 doors (one of which required a key and not a key card) and down a hallway between the incubator and my hood. Thankfully I used flasks and not dishes, they’re harder to contaminate, especially if you tighten the lid before transport. When I asked the other lab about it all I had to say was “Jane” when they said “Doesn’t your lab have a second incubator I swore it did”. Everyone knew she was awful.
    – Eventually her tissue culture incubator broke because she wasn’t filling the water pan (the lack of humidity can damage the CO2 sensor). Guess who got stuck ordering her new one and setting it up because she refused to do so? Including filling the water jacket, which takes FOREVER and involves a step stool when the incubators are stacked like ours were.
    – Our CO2 piping for the incubators needed to be replaced, which thankfully maintenance/facilities does. And there was an issue. We were all standing there and the maintenance guy said he needed to hear it draw and asked if one of us could open an outer door of an incubator (they have double doors, the outer water jacketed one and an inner glass one). So I popped on a glove and opened the outer door, JUST the outer door, of hers. Because she didn’t have any cells in it and I had cells in mine. She walked over, opened both the outer and inner door of mine bare handed, and walked away. This happened in front of our boss who just looked at me like “What do you want me to do about it? You opened hers” Yes I opened just the outer door of her EMPTY incubator while wearing a glove, she opened mine all the way bare handed and could’ve ruined all the cells in there!

    It was that last one, combined with realizing while running a co-IP experiment that I’d rather run naked through blackberry brambles and then swim in the ocean to let the salt get all in those tiny scratches than run western blots on a weekly basis for the rest of my career that made me say “Yeah I’m not extending my contract another year and I am DEFINITELY looking at “alternative” careers”.

    So now I’m a medical writer. I never have to run a Western again, but I DO get to judge other people’s Westerns (what do you MEAN you didn’t use a loading control?????).

    Everyone knew Jane was awful. Apparently she’d gone through a few of the labs there and my boss was just supremely unwilling to do anything about her bad behavior, despite the fact she was treating core facilities people badly as well (like flow cytometry, microscopy, that kind of thing). The flow cytometry core stopped helping her at all. Like she could still sign up and use the equipment, but they wouldn’t go out of their way to help her do anything or troubleshoot unless it was something that would affect other users. Whereas I got all the help I ever asked for because I was nice and a little bit because they felt bad for me trapped with her.

    1. Nonanon*

      Jesus Christ that’s particularly bananapants even for research labs (let’s… not talk about my own passive aggressive research behavior), but this rang true:

      combined with realizing while running a co-IP experiment that I’d rather run naked through blackberry brambles and then swim in the ocean to let the salt get all in those tiny scratches than run western blots on a weekly basis

      I do not miss Westerns at all. I hope you enjoy judging other people’s Westerns, live the dream.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Are you sure your coworker was a person and not a swarm of bees in a human suit?

      I’m just as flabbergasted as you at the glass bin. I was under the impression that the reason broken glass bins exist is to separate out the sharp pointy dangerous stuff with potential biohazards on it out so that the trash guy doesn’t get stabbed. Why would any person with *any* amount of lab experience willingly open it up and rummage through it??

      Your boss and manager sucked, as you’ve rightly identified. May their pillows always be warm.

      1. Missa Brevis*

        And why, of ALL things, would she get territorial over the broken glass bin!? I mean, it sounds like she was territorial over everything and should have been fired years ago, but the broken glass bin? Really?

      1. Wolf*

        Unfortunately, he’ll just make her the problem of the next employees – he’s not dealing with her, it seems.

        Bosses like that one are the reason why I left research, too.

    4. Lady Lessa*

      Thank you, and WOW. I can’t appreciate the details, that would have another biochemist screaming, but I can relate. Especially for folks NOT running controls, etc. (I just wish that some of my testing had decent controls, )

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, thanks for expanding. I saw your comment yesterday and the behavior was so weird that I couldn’t even parse what you meant about going through the broken glass container.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I honestly thought it was a glass container that *had* broken and couldn’t figure out what was happening!

    5. PostalMixup*

      Why are academic labs so ridiculous? There was a woman in my dissertation lab who was so obsessive about potential RNase contamination that she’d glare at anyone who stood in her bay ungloved and without a lab coat. The lab down the hall from my postdoc lab had a postdoc that was so abrasive and difficult to work with that he drove away the wonderful tech who did literally all their wet work. I have found industry to be much more sane.

      2. Hroethvitnir*

        Haha, the intensity of paranoia about RNAses can be wild. You’re just driving yourself nuts – chill.

        Unfortunately my non-academic diagnostics lab (govt) was at least as much of a mess as my academic experience – I am working in a private human diagnostics lab now and for all that I hate that they have a virtual monopoly, they have good systems! And my specific group has a good culture.

    6. ampersand*

      Omg. I have no words.

      I’m so curious where you worked—I don’t expect you to answer that!—but having worked with government labs before, this kind of doesn’t surprise me? Some of them seem totally fine, and then there are places like LANL and DOE. I could imagine either of them employing Jane and completely ignoring her antics.

    7. Darlingpants*

      You had to fill your own water jacket??? I guess it makes sense that they don’t want to ship it with the extra weight but yikes.

      Also yikes to everything else about your coworker. And congrats on getting out of western blots (I like running the SDS PAGE half but I hate the blotting steps).

    8. Nesprin*

      Lol congrats on hanging up your gel box and never touching another bit of nitrocellulouse!

      It’s amazing how ‘don’t be a jerk to support staff’ is memo that some folks never got.

    9. noncommittally anonymous*

      Good Grief. That PI is failing miserably. As someone who also runs a cell culture lab, I can’t imagine putting up with ANY of that, starting with her disposing of plastic pipettes in the sharps box!

      Our safety people would have had a FIT about us carrying cells through a hallway to get to another incubator. I can’t believe anyone actually expected you to do that.

      I keep saying that we need to include some management courses in Ph.D. programs. You get a Ph.D., then you’re expected to run a lab, manage budgets, and manage people with basically no preparation. You end up with people like this guy who can’t manage his way out of a paper sack.

      Don’t even get me started on the lack of training for teaching in Ph.D. programs.

      1. Lady Lessa*

        Last paragraph, as a former TA, I am standing up applauding. I was thrown in to students just a few years younger than I.

        1. Wolf*

          Same – and I felt genuinely sorry for the students who had to be in my courses! I tried my best, but I was fully aware that my best still wasn’t good.

      2. br_612*

        Honestly still shocked my cells didn’t get contaminated carrying them through hallways and three doors. SHOCKED. I think my 5 years in marching brand really came in clutch there because I could roll step the whole way and you barely saw the liquid moving around (and no sloshing). Or even that the movement every few days didn’t mess up growth patterns. A friend in grad school had to keep her incubator on an air table because the vibrations in her lab made adherent cells grow in concentric circles. It was WILD. (Turned out an HVAC unit on the roof, her lab was on the top floor, had something unbalanced that was causing that area to shake a little. You didn’t really notice it as a human, but the cells and some other equipment sure did)

        The other lab totally would’ve let me use their hood, but I had some equipment in my tissue culture room that wasn’t easily transferrable, and they didn’t have room for it anyway.

        1. PostalMixup*

          I know of a lab that had to put in fancy air tables because they were trying to patch clamp, but the HVAC on the roof was shaking the building. Wild to hear it happening in another lab! And wild that it was so bad it affected the cells!

          1. Missa Brevis*

            I’ve only ever needed air tables doing laser microscopy, I had no idea that kind of background vibration could affect cell cultures. Wild! Learn something new everyday, I guess.

        2. Stunt Apple Breeder*

          Were you my lab-neighbor? The tech (from across the hall) who taught me cell culture warned me that my cells would form weird growth patterns because of the HVAC directly above the lab.

        3. Hroethvitnir*

          Woah. The HVAC thing is kinda cool, if unhelpful.

          I had to carry my cells (in flasks, thank god) all the way across campus to use an anoxic chamber, and it felt so incredibly illegal (there was a secondary container etc, but I literally walked through the outside cafe tables). I was even harvesting RNA, but it was a single year project with pretty robust cells, so everything went well even if the results were uninspiring.

    10. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

      “She hoarded the small styrofoam containers reagents were shipped in. HOARDED them. She had dozens and dozens.”

      Serious question: To what purpose?

      1. br_612*

        I have NO idea. She wasn’t shipping stuff frequently, we had plenty of ice buckets, most of the ice buckets even still had their lids.

        I wasn’t about to ask why she needed several dozen small styrofoam coolers, many of which were so small they would barely hold a soda can because they were for like a 2 mL tube of antibody. She’d probably yell at me just for asking.

        1. Wolf*

          You wouldn’t believe the amounts of stuff people keep around “just in case”.

          I was in charge of decluttering when someone retired and their lab got cleaned out. There was an entire room full of broken chairs, decades-old chemicals (some in bottles that didn’t even have the proper safety labels), broken lab devices, books from the 1980s, etc. None of it was relevant or useful to anyone. It cost us a lot of money to get rid of all that stuff.

    11. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      Oh my gosh this takes me back wow! I used to be an admin assistant for a non-government biology lab. We had our own Jane that had been there for like 30 years and is probably there now even though the principal investigator retired in like 2015, closed the lab, and moved out of state. I don’t know how she was as a lab manager but she was pretty dang rude to me all the time, apparently forgetting that I did ordering of both office supplies AND lab supplies. And helped her boss with grant renewals. Which went towards all the lab members’ salaries.

    12. Hroethvitnir*

      Reading this makes me want to scream. I’ve witnessed some petty power struggles and ridiculous dramas in labs, but literally having to change your experiment and waste the gels is just mad.

      I am the kind of person to grab it out of her office at that point, but I am aware that would likely make things worse. (We once had a PI from a different department come steal our best spectrophotometer, so we stole it back – we need that?!)

  20. The Dude Abides*

    Is LinkedIn a necessary evil at this point?

    Given the news that came out re: AI scraping, I made the choice to close the account entirely. I barely used it, and most of my interactions with the platform were from recruiters shotgun-blasting job opportunities.

    It was also the only social media platform I still had an account on, so I can now say I have fully cut that cord.

    1. spcepickle*

      I do not use it all, I found it creepy when it first came out and was not interested at all.
      The only time this was a problem was when I hired someone from out of state who was straight out of school who got all worried he could not find me on linkin and worried I was trying to scam him. It worked itself out after a brief phone call.

      I say cut that cord.

    2. Elsewise*

      I need it because I frequently need to see other people’s information, and you can only do that with an account now. (Yes, I’m aware that’s creepy! I work in corporate fundraising and often have to do basics of prospect research myself.) The last time I used it was to say good luck to a coworker who got laid off while I was out sick, since I didn’t have any other contact information for him. Other than that, it seems to mostly be filled with people I worked with 10+ years ago shilling their consulting businesses and connection requests from empty profiles for people I’ve never heard of.

    3. Alex*

      No, not at all. I’ve never used it for anything useful and don’t know anyone who has ever gotten a job through it.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it depends on what sector you’re in. A friend is in tech and I guess it’s important for the hiring he does, and was shocked when he found out that no one really cares in non-profits, the arts, etc. (At least not in my area.)

    5. JHunz*

      I got a lot of value out of it while I was last job-searching, but at this point the only reason not to delete my account is that I’d lose the connections I have with past colleagues on the platform. There’s just enough value in having those available if I need them for something that it’s the only thing holding me there.

      1. Bookworm*

        Connections with former colleagues is the ONLY reason I’ve not ditched LinkedIn myself. And thanks for the reminder to switch off the settings that don’t allow my data to be used for AI training.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      In my experience it completely depends on your industry/role. I use it daily, and also have found my last 3 or 4 jobs through LI, so YMMV

      1. The Dude Abides*

        I’m now in state government, where I am likely to stay until 67 unless Tier 2 gets fixed.

        Created it as a undergrad almost two decades ago, and never really got any use out of it. I kept it updated, but never posted anything.

    7. OtterB*

      I am in the process of retiring. I have a LinkedIn account that I created years ago. I don’t keep it up but if someone I interact with asks me to add them I do. I was thinking I would keep it because it does have occasional updates on people/projects I like, but as I was clearing out email subscriptions I realized most of the mail is from Linked In and is junk. So I will probably just delete it.

    8. Stuart Foote*

      I like it and I think it has to be a good thing to have my resume publicly available and easily searchable. I did create a burner account when I want to visit someone else’s LinkedIn…don’t need people to see I am checking them out.

    9. Taketombo*

      I contacted a former co-worker though it – one I hadn’t talked to in a decade and who was in a completely different department at OldJob – to see if OldJob would have any issues with mentioning the type of work I did there in an upcoming paper I’m writing. It was useful for that, and other than a bare-bones list of positions I don’t really have anything there for AI to scrape.

    10. In My Underdark Era*

      I’m really about to follow your lead on this one. it’s also the only social media I still have, and I wanted to just close it when I saw that post about AI scraping but still thought, “what if I don’t get a job because they can’t find me on LinkedIn?”

      but at this point, if the absence of a LinkedIn account is actually a consideration for a job posting, I may be willing to cut my losses. I’m not sure it demonstrates that great of judgment to use it as a screening tool in 2024.

    11. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I had one job application that required a LinkedIn account during my last search (remote tech support position), and I sometimes find job postings there that I don’t elsewhere. I would otherwise prefer to delete the thing, especially since I think my Bachelor’s may be hurting me during my job search.

    13. Everything Bagel*

      I haven’t used it in years. Two years ago, when I changed jobs, I finally deleted my LinkedIn account. I hadn’t been active on there in years and from what I’ve heard from others it’s just another social media dumpster. I didn’t find my current job there and have no plans to rejoin.

    14. Hillary*

      I use it daily (often for an hour plus) – it’s where I meet folks in my industry and make connections for my startup. It’s where I have almost 20 years of networking.

      The AI scraping sucks and I’m still annoyed that they launched quietly and made it opt out. But there isn’t a better place for me to make those connections.

    16. Hyaline*

      I have not now nor have I ever used LinkedIn. I don’t get the sense most people in my department do, either (academia).

    17. Elizabeth West*

      You can change the setting for that, but I don’t trust it. Google “LinkedIn is using your data to train AI. Here’s how to turn it off.”
      I still have it but I only use it when job hunting.

    18. H/W for the Win*

      I use LI daily, commenting and posting. I turned off the AI scraping aspect in my settings as soon as I saw a post about it.

      I learn a lot, about non-profit trends and news, through LI. I’m using it for job search producing content every day. I, or my husband, wouldn’t be as successful without it. It takes practice though. I’m surprised to see how many people in my industry have a profile but don’t use LI, particulary for non-profits who could really use it for corporate relations.

      You get what you put into it. If you’re not interested in meeting people in your industry through social media, it’ll be useless to you.

    19. PropJoe*

      My employer pays for LinkedIn Learning and strongly encourages us to make use of it, so that’s the primary reason why I haven’t disabled my account.

  21. Ella Bee*

    Would be cool to do a “stories of when you had to work with a former bully” ask the readers-type thing. I feel like we’ve gotten a lot of questions about that and I know I certainly have a story lol

    2. Nemy*

      I remember at an internship in denying the job application of a grade school bully for an IT role he was very qualified for. I still smile thinking about how satisfying that was.

  22. Football fan*

    TL/DR: Has anyone participated in a training game/activity that they thought was helpful, fun, or interesting? Thanks!

    I am a lawyer who will be presenting on the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) to 30+ lawyers. I need to develop a game or activity (like Bingo, I guess) in a month. Has anyone participated in something like this (for any topic) that they felt was engaging? I’d love ideas. Thanks!

    1. Justin*

      I mean, I’m a trainer, so I would hope that I’ve created some.

      This may not apply for you, but one of my favorites I’ve ever designed was to work on active listening (these were customer service workers), I took half of them out of the room and told them what to do which was to listen intently to the story being told to them, and then when I gave a signal to become distracted, pull out their phones, look away, etc.

      The other people were told to share any compelling story that was a few minutes long.

      Everyone both cracked up and got the point.

      The point is to couch a valuable lesson in something creative and unexpected.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Depends on how new this information is to your group. Is this brand new info? A refresher?

      If it’s brand new, or if it’s not brand new but there’s been some key changes, the classic teacher’s “follow along with this example and try to work out the answer” + partner discussion has been effective for me. Not small group discussion – specifically just with one other person. I find that much more engaging than a group activity.

      For more of a general refresher, I like tapping into the competitive streak with Kahoot! and similar. If you’re not familiar, it’s a timed competitive multiple choice quiz. You get more points for a fast answer but it must be a correct one. People race each other up a leaderboard as the quiz goes on.

      1. DivergentStitches*

        I second Kahoot – I’m not a competitive person at ALL but really enjoyed using it in work groups for some fun.

    3. Nesprin*

      Honestly, no- every training I’ve ever been in that tries to be fun tends to be longer, less informative and more groan inducing. If you’ve got 30 advanced professionals coming, I’d really suggest focusing on information quality, clarity, conciseness, and abundant breaks over ice breakers/games.

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      I will never forget how pumped grown adults from all corners of my state and industry reacted to a game of Memory I made for each conference table. The participants could not sit with anyone they knew so I knew there would be forced awkward “getting to know you” stuff that most people hate. Instead, I made a memory game (you know, like the ones kids played with where they try to find matches on cards turned upside down?). Instead of just pictures they had to match, I used this as a sort of trivia game where they turned over the questions and tried to match to the answers.

      The real successful part with this is that I didn’t tell a single person to play this game with their table mates. I didn’t have to say, “okay go!” or tell them the rules. I simply allowed folks to settle in and suddenly they were playing together with strangers. And they were learning some critical pieces of information they needed to know via the trivia.

      I’ve now done it at almost every training/conference/pot luck I’ve had to organize.

      1. Hazel*

        I love this! I did an internal half-day training about municipal rules and we did a Jeopardy style quiz ( you can do it to assess knowledge before or confirm it after). It’s mostly a bit lighthearted/corny but enjoyable if you can get a bell/ buzzer they can hit to answer.
        If your aim is more serious testing of whether they’ve absorbed and can apply the rules then small group work on scenarios.
        If you have an hr/training dept they will instantly know a couple of activities to use – like teachers, they just know this stuff.
        Mostly try to move the training itself itself from content to understanding to application is what I was told. Not easy with these drier ‘you need to know these 6 rules’ trainings.

    5. Union*

      My legal research class has had a couple good ones, although they’re mostly about getting familiar with software:

      (1) Break into a bunch of teams, maybe 6-8. Put up a list of 16 sources (in this case, maybe provisions?). The teams snake draft which 2 sources they want to research (so Team 1 picks their first, Team 2 picks their first, …, Team 8 picks their first, Team 8 picks their second, Team 7 picks their second, …, Team 1 picks their second). Provide time for the actual research, then each group shares information from their two sources or provisions.

      (2) Scavenger hunt — this works better in person, although you could probably figure out a digital way. Prepare 8 clues, but only provide teams with 1 at first. When they think they have the answer, they come to you, and if they’re right, they get Clue #2. If they’re wrong, you can provide a hint. Subsequent clues might build on one another — Clue #4 might say “In the provision that was the answer to Clue #2, what agency is given responsibility for maintaining the Wombat Processing Form?”

    6. Hillary*

      We just did mad libs as a group with Slido. I’d never heard of the app before, it worked well to engage everyone. We were on zoom but it would also work in person with phones.

    7. Tio*

      We did one where we broke up into partners, sat back to back, and one person had to draw a picture based on instructions from the other person, who had the picture but couldn’t see the drawing. It was about giving directions accurately, and it was kinda fun to see what we came up with.

  23. How Much Bugging is Acceptable*

    I’m a new-ish (3.5 months) employee and SO confused about some things. Things like who do I include on this email, who approves this thing? Can you approve this thing now that I found Person? Person is super busy so they haven’t responded, but I really need approval.

    I’ve saved most of my questions for a weekly (if I can get fit in) meeting, to bring down the amount of times I stop by their office. But for things like “I need approval on this thing ASAP”, how much bugging is acceptable? I feel like my already very busy chain of command bosses are irritated with email reminders and drop-by’s to their office, but I know if I sent it out without their approval, I’d be in trouble. Help!

    1. EngGirl*

      Ask your manager or a more senior colleague in your area to walk you through this. This is a very common thing to need.

      Try to remember that your number 1 priority is potentially their number 10. It’s. It that they’re ignoring you, they just haven’t gotten to you yet. Make sure when you send the initial email you explain any relevant deadline information to them. For example “Hello, if you could please review and approve this by Tuesday so that I can get it submitted in time for the Thursday call with (insert highest ranking meeting attendee here) that would be appreciated.”

    2. spcepickle*

      I have almost 20 years of work experience and I still stop and question who I should be including on an email. So don’t feel bad about that one.

      For the rest of them – you need to find the secret power person in your office. There is always at least one, more than half that time it is your office’s administrative assistant. They are the people who truly understand how the office works and while they often don’t have the exact answer they always know who to talk to AND they will help you find the answer. It sounds like you are in your office physically so start asking just about everyone questions. They don’t need to be complex questions, but ask about how the scan feature on the copier worked, or if they know where this person sits, or even if they know who approves such and such thing. Pay attention to how people answer you, who gets up and walks around with you, who feels like an ally. Also figure out if there is someone doing something similar to you who has been in their role longer – use them as a resource.

      Last piece of advice – don’t worry about not knowing now. It take a year to learn a new job and at least 18 months to make enough connections to know who to call. Any manager worth their salt has the expectation that you are still learning.

    3. Ashley*

      Name it the next time you have a weekly check-in. Last week I needed X and I felt like I was bugging you for approval and bombarding you with emails. Is there a better way I can handle this in the future? If you have a suggestion like asking X person for approval you could mention that.
      One thing that I have started doing is asking when should I follow-up with you on this when I hear from manager they don’t have an answer on something. These are things that I need to get done but can’t without their input. The phrasing changes some based on the need but it does help with how often I feel like a pest.

    4. Goddess47*

      If you’re at all comfortable, ask! Or ask the folk you are comfortable with and work your way around to anyone else as needed.

      “I feel awkward bugging you about X and don’t want to do it too often. But I need that to do Y, which is important/time sensitive/whatever. How do you want me to handle any nudges I may need to give?”

      Good luck!

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yes! You can (and I think should) literally ask what your boss wants you to do when you’re waiting on them for something and they’re busy. Depending on what you’re doing and what they’re doing, they may want you to find time to talk to them when you’re blocked, or they may want to approve everything in that weekly meeting and it’s okay if you’re twiddling your thumbs some. (Or there are some bosses who say that they want to be interrupted but then act annoyed when you actually do… here’s hoping you don’t have one of those.) You’ll start to get a sense of when they’re really urgent busy-busy and when they’re just busy, but it’s fine and normal that you don’t have that yet (and some people are always busy).

        For the record, when I’ve hired people, I’ve made time to talk to them multiple times a week in their first few months. Doubly so if they’re new to the working world or the to industry.

    5. Peanut Person*

      Hm, it’s hard to know without more details. Some of my thoughts below may not apply to you.

      My first thought is: bring this up when you get a weekly 1:1 with a supervisor. They may have some clearer direction to share. You mentioned “saving most questions” for this, but I’m recommending asking the bigger question, “Is there a preferred way to approach this?”

      It sounds like you have multiple people for approvals, so I would start to sense what their individual patterns are like. For example, in my role, I KNOW one sales rep wouldn’t answer via email and she’d only check into the worklist at the end of a fiscal quarter. It didn’t work to email her weekly. On the flip side, I had another sales rep who would answer immediately, but only via email. Or another rep, who I knew would address everything on Thursday afternoons. Look for patterns and try to work with each person’s rhythm. Maybe one approver prefers email. Maybe one only wants to review it when there’s 5+ at a time. Maybe one will do it only at the end or the beginning of the day. Maybe some would prefer a set meeting each week to review. And yet another needs the verbal cues when you stop by their office. Try to learn these patterns and don’t be afraid to ask them for these cues.

      Finally, who is waiting on your stuff? Are you holding other people up if your tasks aren’t approved? If you’re not holding others up, then I wouldn’t necessarily follow up immediately. The other people need to be adults and complete their tasks, including approvals, and it is their responsibility to do so. But only take this strategy if your supervisor knows this is your approach. This approach can mess up productivity metrics unless your supervisor is in the loop. (Like, “Why did you only finish these 10 tasks?” while the reality is that 15 more are waiting on approvals.)

      Good luck!

    6. Brevity*

      This is what the word “onboarding” means. It sounds like no one — like, your boss? — has gotten you up to speed on the absolute minimum basics. If it were me, I”d be very firm (professional, of course), get the 1:1 with Boss, and use that very word, as in, ‘I haven’t had any real onboarding.” Then list your specific examples, along with a quick summary of how you have tried to get the info you need. Hopefully that will get the point across that you are smart and organized, but you can’t know what you don’t know.

      Best of luck.

      1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

        Honestly I’ve never seen it go well in an organization that doesn’t do onboarding well, when someone says they haven’t had any real onboarding. I think that’s because it’s not like they’re suddenly going to know how to onboard, so they just get defensive and strangely make the employee look like the one who is weird. It’s quite strange! But that is why I would explicitly advise against saying that.

        I would recommend the OP just say what they need instead. And, if they’re really motivated, create a document they can share with other new people.

  24. Cog in the Wheel*

    Any advice for being the lowest person in the org chart, but having to nudge supervisors (and even the department head!) to do processes that I need for my job? There’ve been some changes to our automated system, and they’re not getting notifications about certain things; they’ve been told they just need to check and see if there’s anything they need to do. But if they don’t, things won’t move to me to do what I need to do.

    Just today I had to ask both my immediate supervisor and the department head for different things. They’re nice enough about it, but it feels incredibly awkward. I’m not any kind of administrative assistant whose job is to keep them on track. I’m just a low-level functionary trying to do a very specific job that normally wouldn’t interface much with the department head at all! Added to the fact that I’m an “ask” person trying hard to fit into a “guess” culture, so even a quick email sometimes feels too direct and intrusive.

    1. spcepickle*

      So I am the top of my 25 person groups org chart and I NEED the nudges.
      We also have several automated systems that send me emails (most of the time) but the truth is I get 100+ emails a day and things get lost. So I tell my team to Please nudge me, if possible I like to get at least day before the nudge (I do field work and conferences and whatnot so I am often away from email for most of a day). But if you need me to sign, or comment, or approve before you can do something – forward the email again with the word nudge so it shows up at the top of my email or give me a teams chat.

      From my perspective it is not awkward at all – it is all of us people trying to move our work forward. Also the people who find it a problem – will tell you it is a problem. Also if the people you are trying to reach do have admins, make friends with them ask for advise on the best way to approach your nudging.

      1. Lisa*

        Same! Sometimes you are acting as a firefighter, just directing your attention to the most urgent fire. Someone saying “Can you look at X because Y consequences are pending?” helps me a ton to know how to prioritize it as well. I try to respond timely then, but sometimes the consequences are just going to have to come, because they’re not as dire as whatever else has my attention. I try to communicate that back, but sometimes don’t have the time. The more straightforward you can make it for me, the better. “I need an answer on question X. I (or a SME) recommends Q approach. Is that okay? Until we get an answer, C is out of things to work on.” Stuff like that.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Yes! Sometimes I misjudge urgency. I want people to tell me when they need me even if they think they’re being annoying. I try to set the expectation that I am a fan of overcommunication and you aren’t bothering me, but I get that it can be scary for people when they’re skipping levels and nudging.

      2. Tio*

        Same. I am managing three major projects at the same time, so things get lost. I have a lot of emails and things to juggle. If you send me a reminder most of the time I’m going to be quite happy to get it so I don’t delay things.

  25. Kwebbel*

    Question for all the corporate lawyers and payments industry gurus in the house: How does your company feel about Master Agreements from your vendors that include a link to online T&Cs (instead of having them captured directly in the Agreement)?

    I work in e-commerce, in a team that manages relationships with payment vendors (like Paypal, Venmo, Stripe, Alipay, GooglePay, and so on). My company is massive: Fortune 500, and any new vendors we onboard will automatically unlock literally hundreds of millions in transaction volumes as soon as we flip the switch.

    In my role I’m a bit of a go-between for the Legal team and the Relationship Managers, and these two teams have a big disagreement right now about online T&Cs. More and more these days, the Relationship Managers submit contract templates from the vendors where all the T&Cs are covered with a link to the vendor’s website, with a note saying that these can change at any time and we’ll receive 30 days’ notice via email if that happens.

    Our lawyers hate this. They always push back and say they need these to be written down in black-and-white. Our business would die if we stopped using any of these providers, so if a vendor changed their T&Cs in a way that’s unfavourable to us, 30 days’ notice would not be enough for us to find and onboard a new provider. We can’t be in a position where we need to accept these changes without an actual renegotiation.

    But our relationship managers hate our lawyers’ position. They say that, especially in the payments industry, online vendor T&Cs are increasingly becoming the norm. We’ll lose this battle, and we look out of touch by asking for them to convert their online T&Cs into a perpetual agreement that needs official signoff every time they want to make a change.

    I’m not really sure who to believe here! So I’m interested to know what people with experience in either the industry or the craft think.

    1. CTT*

      I’m a commercial lawyer and I would want it included in the contract. My concern is that there’s no guarantee that link will be available even a week from now and if they are changed, there’s no record of what used to be (assuming there’s no maintained archive of previous iterations).

      Is there a way to download the TC from the website in a readable format and save that?

    2. Ripple*

      I have some experience with this from the legal side (not a lawyer) and unless you are 1) dealing with small companies as vendors or 2) your company is very large and has the power to push back in a way that the vendors care to accommodate you, you are not likely to have any leverage to get them to use anything but the Terms and Conditions click to agree/we can change at any time upon 30 days notice type agreement.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        It sounds like OP’s company *does* have the leverage to get them to use paper T&C – OP says “Fortune 500 company” and that’s the point where you usually do have some negotiating power.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      So – not a lawyer, but in a similar position at a much smaller company where our sales people keep going out and doing things and we have to scramble to catch up.

      My suggestion is: you need a company policy on this, it needs to come from someone higher up in the food chain than either legal or the relationship managers, and you should probably escalate this sooner rather than later. Online T&C, and the way that vendors can just “change” them, are something of a slow burn problem right now in the market, to the point where it’s gone to legal trial.

      Have you had any instances in the past where a vendor has changed their T&C, and having a black and white contract has caused issues for you? Or the flipside: have you had any vendors where you did just use the online T&C? Did things go wrong? Did they not go wrong?

    4. Margaret Cavendish*

      I’m definitely not a fan of this. I’m not a lawyer, but I am a records manager, so my job is all about making sure we have the right versions of the right documents. If the vendor’s T&C have changed since we signed the contract, where is the record of the specific version that we signed?

      My organization’s legal team doesn’t seem bothered by it, which surprises me, but here we are.

      2. Alternative Person*

        Same, not a lawyer but having dealt with adjacent things related to records and contracts, contract terms can be very important in dealing with issues and I would not be a fan of the other side being able to unilaterally make changes then just send an e-mail.

        If the company won’t provide a T&C document or insists the web link is sufficient, I would look to covering things on my end. Some sort of contractual clause that enforces particular terms? A grievance procedure? And I would look to keeping a suitable copy of the T&Cs when the contract was signed. Perhaps screen grabs? Using the wayback machine?

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I don’t want a link to the contract that I agreed to. I want a finalized original in my hands, or an electronic version that both parties have exact, true copies of. If all I have is a link to a webpage with content managed by the other party, then I have no control over the text once I’ve consented to the terms we’ve negotiated. Let’s be clear. I don’t want a typo corrected on the contract I’ve agreed to unless I’ve been given the opportunity to review and consent to the correction. If you’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars, then it’s a huge risk for me to let my client, the company, agree to a contract where I can see it only through a possibly ephemeral link to a website where the text can be changed without my knowing.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        I can’t imagine any other major business contract where one party can say “oh by the way we are going to retain the ability to change this unilaterally at any time and your only input on it is the chance to protest once you see our 30 days notice”. The closest I can think of is a floating rate mortgage, and even then those are usually pinned to some sort of 3rd party index.

        The idea of signing a contract like that dang near gives me *hives*.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      If the concern is that the vendor’s terms can change suddenly wouldn’t that be the same whether it was online or in the contract?

      1. Texan In Exile*

        I would think that the signed version that the company holds would govern – that the vendor can change terms with new contracts, but can’t revise old ones without mutual agreement.

        1. WestsideStory*

          Yes, what the vendors are asking is to be able to alter existing contracts in a one/sided fashion. I can’t think of any large company that would allow this, unless the Master Contract addressed it in a way to protect the company.
          E-commerce vendors tend to try to get away with anything they can. One solution might be to require, along with the Master Contract, individual Work Orders that amend T&C as you go, but require sign-off from the client before work gets done. This may provide the necessary document trail if things go south
          Yes this will slow things down (cue the whining from the relationship managers) but you have to remind them your company is the customer. As to your fears that you could not replace services quickly, it may be possible to divide the work between competing vendors. Then you’ve always got a back up in case one gets too big for it’s digital britches.

      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        If it’s on paper in the contract, then the vendor’s terms *can’t* change suddenly. That’s legal’s whole point.

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      Ugh. Such a topic!
      At my last company (software), we had T&Cs online and our customers hated them with the heat of a thousand suns. So I actually started hating them too because it made contract negotiations so difficult (I was point on those).
      I really think it’s just laziness. Asking customers to put up with potentially changing terms with 30 days notice is unreasonable. The T&Cs need to be attached to whatever agreement is being used.

    8. Rage*

      I’m a Contracts Administrator. My grandboss, the Chief Compliance Officer, doesn’t like them either. Our standard practice is to request that the T&C be attached to the contract, an any language referencing the T&C link removed. But we are NOT a Fortune 500 company (we’re a mid-sized non-profit) and we have been successful in that exactly zero times since I started in this role 18 months ago.

      We do have ONE contract from about 7 B.C. (Before Compliance LOL) where it does look like our CFO at the time managed to get it done that way, but it gets confusing because we end up with statements of work underneath that larger contract, and THEY are beholden to the online T&C.

      Are online T&Cs becoming “the norm”? Sure, probably, but not just for convenience; they are much easier to ensure that the terms favor that organization, instead of its contractors/contractees. It’s not about being “out of touch” – it’s about wanting to ensure you can live with the liability of that contract.

    9. Kay*

      Not a lawyer but deal with legal contracts constantly. This would be a major problem and I guarantee this would get broken out into an Exhibit for any final executed contracts to demonstrate exactly what terms were agreed to for many of the reasons already stated.

    10. Payments person*

      I don’t normally comment but this is directly up my alley as a lawyer in the payments industry (this is not legal advice). The commenters so far are not wrong that lawyers hate online terms and for good reason, but IME they are industry standard for payment providers. Unless your company is massive and you have someone very senior willing to make this a dealbreaker it will be difficult to avoid online terms entirely.

      Payment providers like the ones you mentioned are dealing with 2 things: tech limitations at scale and compliance / operational requirements from their partner banks. Tech limitations: their stack is built in a certain way and customer requests that are reasonable in isolation may require customization or manual processes that are difficult to implement and even more difficult to maintain. Having a custom built setup could increase the chance that something might break (which, worst case, could mean a disruption in service for the client). Bank partner limitations: most payment providers, even large ones, are dependent on banks and card networks for some part of the underlying processing. Those partners have very specific compliance and operational requirements, which may also change over time (for example, if there is a new regulation). If something changes, the payment company needs to be able to pass that through to customers to avoid major issues with their partners.

      Tldr, your lawyers aren’t wrong but the payment companies do have some legitimate risks they’re trying to manage. Issues that don’t touch compliance may be more negotiable but it will usually come down to leverage and whether your company is willing to walk.

      Again: not legal advice.

    11. TPS Reporter*

      agree you need to enforce that a mutually agreed to amendment is signed before material changes to Ts and Cs. however you could potentially acquiesce to unilateral changes (i.e. just changes on the vendor end) that are non-material as long as you clearly define what is non-material, like let’s say changes to contact information. Ultimately though these are your vendors, you’re the client so you should be in control.

    12. Hillary*

      One thing I reminded myself (a lot) when doing contracts is that if we make it to law we have all failed. I hate incorporation by reference. Your lawyers are technically correct but it’s not a sustainable position with SAAS providers.

      Your lawyers are used to having the most power in the relationship and that’s not true here. You need them much more than they need you. Unless you’re a large enough customer that you are able to negotiate T&Cs (probably the provider’s top 100 revenue list) IMO the best you’re going to get is longer notice of any changes.

      One thing they can do is include a clause that the T&C are subject to change with x notice in the contract body and the T&Cs as they exist on a certain date as an appendix. Updating an appendix doesn’t need the same level of approvals as the main agreement.

      From a sourcing perspective this needs to be recorded as a known risk, potentially with a mitigation plan.

        1. Hillary*

          You’re welcome! I managed a category with similar dynamics for a couple years – I had a lot of practice explaining it.

    13. A Pocket Lawyer*

      I am an in-house tech lawyer, and have worked in payments in the past. I definitely want a copy of whatever we clicked through, preferably with some sort of time stamp or mark on it, for filing and audit purposes.

      With some vendors (i.e., AWS Marketplace), there is literally no leverage to negotiate and you just have to accept their terms, which they can update at any time. This sucks. Other vendors are more flexible.

      I live my professional life balancing what the contract says and what I think will actually play out in reality. And while many vendors say they can update their online terms and your continued use constitutes acceptance of the new terms, the reality is that if the terms changed so radically that you felt you needed to terminate rapidly, many others would, too and your vendor would likely lose a ton of business.

      Another clever (and quick) workaround is to amend the linked terms and conditions via adding some terms in the purchase order/ordering document.

  26. chocolate muffins*

    Work-related joys thread! I was invited into a leadership position that I am very excited to take on. I am doing something similar currently but my term will end soon, and I’m grateful to have the chance to continue this type of work. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Don’t make me come over there*

      I will be going back to full-time work soon! Though really it’s the full-time paycheck I’m excited about. And benefits! The only reason I’ve been able to stay at this start-up for the past few months is that the stock market’s been up. I’ll be glad to be able to break even again.

    2. OtterB*

      I’m retiring! I am handing off my main project to a new staffer and she’s great. I will miss it in some ways but there’s a lot of organizational change and I don’t have to learn all the new stuff.

  27. Purple Cabbage*

    How much of your PTO do you use for actual relaxation or vacation? I get decent PTO by US standards,* and this year, I’ve used literally one day of it on something fun.

    I supported one parent having major surgery, the other parent in an interstate move, and drove my partner to an out-of-town medical procedure. I also took a couple days to be around for various repairs done on my house.

    I only have so much sick time, and I try to hold onto that in case I get the flu in December or something. I can’t afford to potentially take that time unpaid if I burn the days earlier in the year.

    There’s a lot of discussion here about the importance of resting or taking vacation, and that’s just never been my reality. I like having the time available to support my family, but I don’t have the option to do those things and take a week off for fun stuff too.

    Are others in the same boat, or is this a me problem?
    *(Please don’t turn this into a US vs the rest of the world thing. We’ve had that discussion ad nauseum already.)

    1. Justin*

      Well, because I have a toddler, “Vacations” are exhausting. Nice experiences but not relaxing. Or sometimes I take a day off when his school is closed.

      Now that we finally have a sitter for him, I took my first day off that was just a day off for me a few weeks ago.

      But we’re about to have another kid, so. :)

      (And I get not just decent but great PTO by American standards.)

      1. trifle*

        Similar. When my kid was in school, I saved 5-7 days every year for care-giving. Not using your vacation for a vacation is standard middle of working life as far as I’m concerned. Some years you get lucky some years you don’t. I think for all the years my kid was in school we only took 3 week long vacations. Did a few Fri-sunday camping trips.

    2. EngGirl*

      Depends on the year. I try to use as much as I can for actual vacation, but sometimes you’ve just got other stuff going on.

      For the last couple of years and the foreseeable future I’ve been eating up chunks of time to attend weddings that people are scheduling on Fridays. This is a trend I am slowly starting to loathe. I get that it’s cheaper for the couple, but I’m usually burning more PTO than I was planning on giving the bride and groom as a wedding gift.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My life has gone back and forth on that. There was a while when I was doing a 7-hour roundtrip drive multiple weekends to support my parents, one of whom had had major surgery. So that was at least a day of PTO every time I did that – leave at noon on Friday, get back at noon on Monday.

      Even though I don’t have any issues like that now, I still end up taking a few days of PTO each year not for rest and relaxation, but for some work around the house that’s really meaningful for me (getting my garden set up in the spring, canning in the summer & fall). But I justify it to myself that if I tried to squeezeall that in on the weekend, I’d be absolutely exhausted when Monday rolled around again. So it kind of is r&r.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I would definitely considering the gardening and the canning to be R&R! I get that the physical aspect of especially the gardening probably takes the “rest” out of “rest and relaxation”, but I like to think that the “rest” part also means a mental rest, so spending time doing something you enjoy is still a rest even if it’s physical work.

        2. WheresMyPen*

          Also relates to what Alison was saying last week about avoiding burnout by doing something completely different, not just literal resting.

      2. Princess Peach*

        Gardening definitely counts as a type of relaxation when it’s voluntary. :) I agree with Caramel & Cheddar – resting doesn’t have to be sitting in a bubble bath. The fun PTO day I had involved a high energy long weekend participating in a fan convention, but it was something I chose and wanted to do.

        There’s nothing particularly enjoyable about hospitals, carrying someone else’s boxes, or watching city workers replace your sewage piping though. It seems that most of my “vacation” gets used for things I’d rather not do whether it was on PTO or not. Then I go back to work and people ask if I had a relaxing trip. Alas.

    4. Alex*

      I decline spending time with my family so that I can use my vacation time for actual relaxation (my family is not relaxing in any way, shape, or form.)

      And by “family” I mean my parents/extended family–I don’t have kids or a spouse.

      My mom is constantly telling me that I “owe” her my vacation time aka, I should spend it with her, but I just tell her no, I need it to do other things.

      Now I am definitely not saying that that approach is good for everyone, but it is true that most people only get so much time off and we have to set boundaries around its usage. I do use some of the time to see/help my family (I took 2 days last year to take my mother to a medical procedure, for example) but definitely not all of it.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I get three weeks of vacation and I use it all for fun, but I don’t have children nor other folks who depend on me for the kinds of things that people are depending on you for. Frankly, even though I do use it all for fun, it’s still not enough. I tend to use two weeks of it for one-week vacations and then use the rest scattered throughout the year to take long weekends, etc.

    6. JHunz*

      Most of my PTO goes to visiting family (we’re hours away from both sets). I take a very occasional day that’s just for relaxing, but it’s definitely the minority.

    7. jenny*

      I think some years are just like that. Hopefully next year will be a little easier on that front for you.

      I’m lucky that I can bank vacation time. And my goal is always to bank 1 week the first few year of my job. That allowed me to use one week of vacation and save some. That way, after a couple of years I was in a place where I had enough time to take plenty of time off for fun and still have time if some unpleasant stuff comes up.

    8. Jessen*

      I have similar issues with chronic health issues – I have decent PTO by US standards as well, but almost all my time off gets used to either deal with being sick, or to catch up on things I wasn’t able to do because I was sick. I know I’m supposed to take a vacation but it feels like that would require me to somehow have a different body.

    9. Too Long Til Retirement*

      Husband and I are DINKS who love to travel, but do not have the amount of vacation time we would LIKE to have. We generally plan 1 weeklong trip per year out of the country, and then do smaller weekend trips the rest of the year.

      At the end of December last year I took a week off to try and relax for myself. It started to work, but then I made the mistake of not turning off my work email notifications. I saw an “urgent” all-company memo come through, and the news made me worry a LOT about changes to my job duties. They did not come to pass, but that worry was annoying, and I ended up being MORE stressed after the week off than I would have been otherwise. SO in the future I will TURN OFF THE NOTIFICATIONS when I want to decompress.

    10. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      None–spouse’s needs/wants/agenda, kids, etc, all come first. Which is part of the reason I’ve been so ambivalent about PTO in the past.

    11. Generic Name*

      In general I try to take one week off in the summer for an actual vacation (I’m cheap, so we’re not talking luxury cruises, more like camping or staying in a nearby tourist town that we drive to), and I like to take the week between Christmas and New Years off to just loaf around.

    12. Seashell*

      When my kids were smaller, I used up a lot of my vacation time to cover school vacations/half-days/snow days or to get home in time for pick-ups, so it wasn’t necessarily fun. Now that everyone’s old enough to entertain themselves, I don’t have to worry about that sort of thing. I took some time this summer because my kid wanted to go to a certain day camp and the timing would interfere with work, so I used the hours in the middle of the day to relax. I also had a brief summer vacation with the family.

      I am planning to take my birthday off this year, some time between Christmas and New Year’s, and possibly the day after the election, in case it take a long time that night to call it and so I can be either very happy or very sad. I can carry some vacation time over to the next year, so I usually do that.

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      With the caveat that I am extremely lucky to work fully remotely and to be in good health, and for those around me to be in good health, and I don’t have children to bring home every germ that crosses their path at school – pretty much all my PTO is spent on … I’ll say stuff of my choosing, even if a day off to scrub my house down or whatever isn’t exactly fun stuff. I have only needed to call in sick once in 10 years.

    14. i am a human*

      for maybe the first time ever this year, I took a week off in May right before my kids got out of school. It was amazing. I didn’t do anything fun, per se, but it did feel luxurious.

    15. Iusemymiddlename*

      I haven’t actually had any PTO available to me since 2013 (age discrimination is real, folks), but when I’ve taken unpaid time off from work since 2014, it has always been for family issues. No family nearby, so lots of travel to attend to matters. I will finally have some PTO coming later this year, but will probably use it to travel to visit family.

    16. Rage*

      I had not really had a “vacation” since before COVID. Any time off I took was either visiting family (I love ’em, but good Lord ‘n butter they can be exhausting!), family visiting me (we live states apart – see my previous parenthetication), moving, funerals, family medical, my own surgeries (2), yadda yadda, you get the picture.

      The vacations that I did take pre-COVID were often “busy” trips anyway (e.g., Dragon*Con – fun, but exhausting).

      It’s not a “you” problem. It’s a thing. I honestly didn’t realize just how much truly relaxing time off I had not had in years until last month when fiance and I went on an 11 day Alaska cruise. We did a couple of excursions in port, but since we ported out of San Francisco instead of Seattle/Vancouver, we had 2 full at-sea days at both the beginning and end of the trip. So a lot of eating and napping, chilling on our balcony, more napping; I don’t think we attended a single show or event on the ship. I came back SO FREAKING REFRESHED it’s not funny anymore. I know I will need to make this a more regular occurrence.

      Honestly, you may just need to figure out a way to make time for it and then be strict about it. Make a concerted effort to “bank” a few days that you will use for nothing other than eating, napping, and watching reruns of your favorite shows.

    18. Tris Prior*

      This is my partner’s experience. He used all his vacation time this year because his dad passed and there were many issues around closing the estate that banks, etc. required that he appear in person for. And he is STILL not done, there were some straggling accounts that couldn’t be done on the last visit and are refusing to handle online or by phone.

      He’s starting to fray around the edges and I worry about his mental health (and physical, he has some repetitive stress related chronic pain) due to him never getting any actual downtime. But he works for a tiny company that hassles him any time he needs off even for major life stuff like the above.

      Only solution seems to be change jobs but then it’d be a while before he could take PTO and we both fear he’s too burned out to excel at something brand new, much less job hunt while at this place.

    19. Aggretsuko*

      It’s gonna be me in this new job, since it gives 7 hours of vacation time a month (that just irritates me, it’s not even a full day) for the first three years, I won’t be able to take time off at Christmas, and I’ve had enough stupid car emergencies come up since I started here that I feel like any days off I earn AND am allowed to use after six months probably need to be saved for actual emergencies. And one day off for a wedding.

      I stopped taking vacations after 2019 so I’m used to it by now, at least, I don’t care any more. Everyone comes back from their trips with covid now anyway, so it doesn’t seem worth it.

    20. Synaptically Unique*

      I rarely get to use PTO for anything fun. The vast majority of it is related to caregiving or personal responsibilities. It is what it is. I’m thankful I’ve got enough PTO to cover all of those responsibilities because I know plenty of people who don’t. From the other side of the issue, as a coworker who has to work around other people’s more traditional use of PTO, it’s easier on everyone else when it’s in small chunks instead of full week or multiple weeks at a time. And I would be aggravated at having to cover even more time for other people if they got unlimited sick/caregiving leave and still had even more time to take for personal enjoyment.

    21. Alternative Person*

      Some, usually. I was able to have a very good holiday this year, but it was a lot of effort to make it work against freelance jobs, catching up on housework/life stuff and working towards savings goals. My job’s time in lieu policy is pretty decent which makes the PTO go further, but being able to afford to have fun is definitely an ongoing concern.

    22. Bereavement Bear*

      Well, I’ve been taking a fair amount of time off in the past couple of months to deal with matters related to my mom’s estate, so nope, definitely not for fun stuff!

    23. fhqwhgads*

      I get 4 weeks vacation and usually 75-100% is “fun”. I also get 2 weeks sick leave and had a major medical thing early early this year, so I’m sort of holding back some vacation in case my kid gets sick and I need the time off for that.

    24. Nightengale*

      things I take time off for
      visiting mother – some enjoyment but not really relaxing
      mother visiting me -ditto
      conferences. . .

      I don’t like traveling at all so I would not consider “going on vacation” fun or relaxing at all but I could really use some time off to be home and sleep in and catch up on non-work life stuff. There’s an added complication that I’m a doctor without any coverage so even when “on vacation” I have 1-3 hours of work to do each day and am also on call for rare but possible emergencies. No, this is not sustainable.

    25. Anon here*

      In the last three years I have used virtually all of my leave (vacation and sick) for family medical related reasons. Some for my own medical needs. I earn 2days vacation and 1 day sick every month; I had also accrued almost 250 (rolled over) hours because my supervisor allowed me to flex hours and work remotely.

      I was on continuous FMLA for 2 months this summer due to my son’s medical needs. I used all of my accrued and current leave.

      It’s hard, before the pandemic I had started to be able to take afternoons or mornings off to do things for myself. But that’s over now. That’s the way life goes.

  28. Blue Pen*

    Is it inappropriate to ask your manager to run interference with the rest of your team concerning a personal matter at home?

    My spouse and I are going through something really difficult that has left us both mentally and emotionally drained. Although I completely understand (and appreciate) my colleagues asking me how we’re doing, and I know they mean well, I just don’t want to talk about it. It’s not so much that I don’t ever (or won’t ever) talk about it, but at this moment, it’s just a little too raw for me to get through without crying. I can keep it together for the most part, but when I’m asked questions about it, it’s just really trying and I can’t guarantee I won’t start crying. I don’t want to cry in front of my colleagues.

    Would it be weird to lay out an overview of the situation with my manager, emphasize that I’m OK and will get through it, but if they can head those questions/conversations off at the pass with everyone else, I would be most grateful. And if it is OK to do something like this, how would I go about wording it?

    1. ferrina*

      Depends on your manager.

      If your manager is amazing, you could say “I’m going through a really hard time at home due to X. It really helps if I don’t talk about it at work. Could you help by letting everyone know that I’m okay, just don’t want to talk about it?” (or whatever it is you want- you need to tell your manager explicitly what you are asking for.

      If your manager is mediocre, you can ask for a one-time announcement for the team. That’s something doable that isn’t a big lift. This will only work if you know that your team is well meaning and just needs guidance on how to handle this with you.

      If your manager is bad, don’t ask. A bad mangaer won’t suddenly handle a delicate situation well; they’ll just make more drama you don’t need (either intentionally or accidentally).

      1. Blue Pen*

        Thanks! My manager, thankfully, is amazing. To be clear, I don’t need them to take on any emotional labor on my part. The only thing I would want is for them to pull our small team aside and say something along the lines of “ixnay on asking Blue Pen about X.”

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          As a manager – I would absolutely be willing to do that for one of my team members if they asked me to.

          Personally — I would probably write an email to my team myself, along the lines of

          “Hey, y’all know thus-and-such happened and I’m having some struggles, and what I could really use as support from you lot is for work to be a place where I don’t have to think about it. So I’m going to do three things:
          1) assume you all are fountains of good thoughts and goodwill,
          2) ask you not to mention this situation again if I don’t bring it up explicitly first, and
          3) delete all responses to this email unread.
          Thank you for understanding and helping me out in this manner.”

        2. Cordelia*

          I think it’s absolutely appropriate. It sounds like people already maybe know something of what’s going on, so you don’t need to go into further details when speaking to the manager, just something like “People keep asking me about the XYZ situation, and I know they are being kind, but it’s really hard for me to talk about at work. Would you be able to let them know I’m really grateful for their concerns, but I’d prefer they didn’t ask me about it for a while?”
          When I had a similar situation I asked a colleague I knew well to do the same thing for me, because it was easier for me to talk to her than to my manager at the time, but my manager would have done it too.

      2. MsM*

        It also depends on whether your team is likely to respect a “Blue Pen is going through a rough time right now; please don’t ask them for details on their personal life,” or if that will just make the prying worse, even in the form of asking if there’s anything they can do to help. Although if there’s a colleague who most people like and respect, you could also try asking that person to spread the word and/or run interference with anyone who’s likely to give you a hard time.

    2. The Coolest Clown Around*

      It’s not an unreasonable request, though I’d factor in your manager’s judgement here. Another option might be to pull aside the most influential coworker who’s judgement you trust and say something like, “Hey, I really appreciate everyone’s kindness while I’ve been going through a difficult time, but it’s really hard to be asked about my personal life so often at work. Would you be willing to help quietly discourage people from asking so frequently?”

    3. OtterB*

      Agree it is reasonable to ask your manager or a well-liked colleague to make this kind of announcement: Blue Pen is doing okay but while at work would really like to be able to think about work, not personal stuff. If there’s any change or any help needed, they will say so.

    4. Hyaline*

      If your coworkers are asking you directly about a situation that they know about already, it might just be easier to just respond to the next sympathetic person who asks with “It’s so kind of you to be concerned, but honestly discussing this is very difficult and emotionally draining. I’d actually appreciate not rehashing it at work for the time being…[pretend to suddenly have brilliant idea]…in fact, could you let the others in the department know I’d rather not talk about? Oh gosh, that’s so kind, thank you!” If it’s easier to take it to your manager, then yes, making this request makes complete sense! But “running interference” makes it sound like more hands-on action than is necessary–just a “spread the word” is sufficient.

  29. The Uncool Mom*

    I’m F38 and started a new job at a tech company about 8 months ago. I previously worked at a nonprofit for a decade. I never previously felt insecure about my age, age is age, you can’t change it! But I took about two steps down for title with a salary increase for my current job.
    I feel like an awkward high schooler now, because the people who have similar titles to me are anywhere from 13-4 years younger than me and the few woman that are my age are way higher up and our company seems hierarchical. I’ve had younger friends before but I’m picking up on a bit of an out in the open anti-kids sentiment among colleagues “I would NEVER have kids, yuck” and I have two young children. Of course this is not everyone but I came from a job where people enthusiastically loved children so it’s been a shift.

    As someone who has mostly felt at ease around others and connects quickly I feel like it’s hard to find connections at work and it’s making me compare myself to others constantly which I didn’t really do before.

    I want to nip this in the bud and was wondering if there are any good books/podcasts anyone recommends that is geared towards women in their 40s/moms pivoting in a career. TIA!

    1. Lady Lessa*

      No ideas, because the last job (before my current one) I had a hellacious time with fitting in. They hadn’t had any new people in a long time, and didn’t know how to help me. My standard things didn’t work (and I have changed jobs a lot, with many not being in the same area).

      I was frankly very relieved when I was let go.

      Good luck

    2. Excel Gardener*

      For the anti-kids stuff, maybe just gently reminding people you have kids when they make anti-kids comments will cause people to stop making these kinds of comments, at least around you.

      As for connecting with them, I’d try to find commonalities and emphasize those at first. That probably means less kid/family talk and more talk about tv shows/sports/video games/hobbies/travel etc. that younger folks are more likely to find relatable. I think people in their 20s can sometimes be a bit intimidated by middle aged folks and assume they have less in common than they do, so it’s probably going to be more on you to establish that common ground at first.

    3. Work it on out*

      What exactly are you trying to “nip in the bud”? Because you are not going to change your co-workers’ opinions about not wanting kids. They will not be interested in your kid’s soccer game or field trip to the cookie factory but you can find something else in common. Music? An art exhibition? New science discoveries about shark DNA? There are plenty of things in the world to talk about.

      1. The Uncool Mom*

        No, definitely don’t want to try to change peoples minds. I just gave that as an example.

        What I’m wanting to nip in the bud is my own, internal comparisons or feeling awkward due to my age and just being at a different stage in life.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      Ha, I’m in the same boat except the young’uns are having kids and I haven’t. What are the other anti kids comments like? If it’s something like: “Oh yuk they are awful and parents must be stupid” it’s not okay to say that about any group of people. If it’s just more “Oh getting up through the night is yuk, kids are really not for me” people can be really hard on women in their thirties about kids, and I’ve known infertile people to say this stuff defensively. I think it’s entirely possible you’ll find your groove with them eventually, try to remember that you’re still new! It takes time to figure out what you and Surface Opposites have in common besides the life stage stuff. I think the stuff about being professionally new applies: listen more than you talk, and be prepared for things to feel different. Do also try to remember that age means very very little in good professional environments. I don’t mean people are blind to it but it shouldn’t affect how well respected, or even how well liked you are. People won’t understand your references and that’s literally the only thing I’ve found that my younger colleagues don’t understand; and they are still willing to listen to me explain a joke based on a milk advert from the eighties.

    5. In the same boat*

      I’m in a similar situation (F38, new job, young child) and colleagues the same level as me now vary lots in age from early twenties to my age or older – but mainly younger.
      I took your comment to be more about the self-doubt you’re feeling rather than wanting to talk about kids all the time?
      Just wanted to send solidarity and say that I will share any recommendations I think of (I’m not great at remembering specific ones off the top of my head!)

    6. Attractive Nuisance*

      I don’t have any recommendations unfortunately but I do have some advice, which is: sometimes if you’re struggling to find common ground with someone it’s helpful to stop trying. Otherwise, you risk forming a relationship that is built too much around The One Thing We Have in Common and that can feel very restrictive for both parties.

      It’s better for the Venn diagram of your relationship to be two whole, non-intersecting circles than to be a tiny sliver that doesn’t really represent either of you.

      People who are different from each other form good relationships all the time. Approach your coworkers with curiosity about who they are and allow them to approach you with curiosity about who you are. Don’t make assumptions about what they want to hear from you or who they want you to be. The more you share of yourself, the more opportunities you give them to find real points of connection with you.

    7. Lady Dedlock*

      No advice per se, but if it makes you feel less alone, my recent career story is extremely similar. I’m also 38 and switched to working in UX for a large bank after 12 years at a small nonprofit. I took a downlevel for a sizable pay increase, but I didn’t anticipate how much it would bother me that most of my “peers” are at least a decade younger. I’ve been building a case for a promotion and hoping to level up sooner rather than later. If I can’t make that happen, I’ll start applying elsewhere. Keep reminding yourself that you’re in a sector with better opportunities and pay, and it will get better from here.

  30. Anon4This*

    I posted a little while ago about some layoffs at my organization. Essentially, a nonprofit that bills itself as a worker-friendly social justice org laid off two employees who talked openly about cultural issues, and the rest of the team is scared for their jobs. A huge thank you to everyone who talked me down from the immediate panic, especially Unionizer Bunny (and yes, we’re talking about it.)

    As an update, leadership has just invested in some high-level training for me, which makes me feel like my job is a lot safer. And our team is organizing. Honestly, I haven’t felt this close to my coworkers in ages. As a mostly-remote employee, this is great for team cohesion!

    We’ve managed to get leadership to agree to sit down with us, and are working on a list of changes we’d like to see made. My question for the week: does anyone have any suggestions for what to call it? We’re looking for something a little stronger than “requests” but not as confrontational as “demands”. Even the grant-writers are stumped!

    1. The Coolest Clown Around*

      How about “proposals”? It sounds sufficiently work-formal and I think the pressure you’re looking to put in the word is mostly implicit in the format of the meeting. That also implies there’s room for a little negotiation if there are business needs prohibiting the original ideas but your leadership is still willing to try to meet your underlying needs in a way that “demands” doesn’t.

      1. MsM*

        It’s a nonprofit, so you could also use a little strategic plan-type framing: “Here’s our vision for a culture where workers feel heard and respected, here are the strategies we consider important to making that happen, and here are the actions/next steps that need to be taken.”

    2. Kitten*

      Requirements
      Recommendations
      Goals
      Objectives
      Talking points
      Expectations
      Needs
      Gaps
      Targets

      Also a grant writer….

    3. The Unionizer Bunny*

      [blink blink] Did my username do more lifting than I was expecting? I just meant “continue doing whatever concerted activities you were already engaged in” (and make sure they couldn’t claim they weren’t firing you for concerted activities they “knew nothing about”), not “dial it up to 10 and unionize”. With a promotion on the line I would understand if you wanted to keep your head low.

      I can also understand the rest of your team wanting to keep their own jobs, too. And improve working conditions, not just file hoping for eventual reinstatement/backpay. So it makes sense. I do wonder if any of them had prior organizing experience and were thinking “Hell yeah. We’re doing this. Right now. Carpe diem.”

      To your question, it may be best to avoid the word “petition” ;)

      AFSCME calls contract clauses “proposals” mid-negotiation, so I endorse what The Coolest Clown Around said.

  31. Turingtested*

    I’m hiring for a sales/finance adjacent role. Typical salary in my area is 55-70k for this role. I offer 60-70k based on experience.

    More than half the applicants request a minimum salary of 100k. It’s not possible for me to meet and it seems incredibly rude to say “Will you accept 30k less?”

    1. Turingtested*

      Sorry hit the submit prematurely.

      So I pass on these candidates. Is that the right way to handle it? Many are qualified.

      How do you all handle these situations?

      1. EngGirl*

        If you’re not able to pay what they’re asking and the gap is that wide, pass and move on, it’s better for everyone.

        If you have a qualified candidate who’s closer to the range you can reach out, but be transparent and give them the range first so they can decide if they want to continue.

        1. Turingtested*

          The last person I hired had asked for 100k and I passed on their resume. They networked to find me and I said “The max I can offer is 70k per the posting, you requested 100k, it seemed insulting to offer you that.” The response was a flabbergasted “I want 100k but I’ll take 65.” The candidate seemed shocked that I took the salary requirement seriously.

          So I was curious if others had that experience while hiring, or if there was some unwritten rule that applicants now shoot for 100k no matter what.

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            So I’ve been in a similar position from the other side. Early in my career I was severely underpaid for my position, and my mom suggested I ask for a huge raise. Their thought was that even though I probably wouldn’t get that amount, that would open negotiations and we’d meet somewhere between my current salary and there.

            What happened? I was told “absolutely not” and got nothing. Granted, the owner was a cheap asshole so even a modest request may have been rejected. But my mom’s advice made me so sure that there would be negotiations that I never considered an outright rejection. I wouldn’t be surprised if the person above received similar bad advice.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              That’s my experience, too. I had to figuratively drag the company back to the negotiating table (it was negotiating a conversion from contractor to employee). If it’s more than ~10%, I’m not optimistic about it.

            2. Turingtested*

              That is my concern. A lot of these applicants are recent grads with relevant degrees but no relevant experience and I feel like in some ways I’m doing a disservice by not speaking out. But if they want 100k who am I to say its not realistic? It isn’t for this job but not every one.

              1. EngGirl*

                Oof yeah, that’s always frustrating. I interviewed someone right out of school once who wanted 10k more than I made. I basically had to tell him outright that we wouldn’t be able to meet that and said we were so far apart that I didn’t see this making sense.

                I feel like when you’re fresh out of school you just kind of have a vague number in mind for what you should be making and you run with it. I definitely didn’t have any idea where to look when I was searching for my first job about 10 years ago.

          2. Annony*

            For entry level, it doesn’t really surprise me. Lots of students are given bad job searching advice or may not be good at looking up market rate and basing their number on HCOL salaries. The fact that you have the range in the ad does raise a bit of a red flag that they either did not read the ad thoroughly but I don’t think it would be insulting to reiterate the range and ask if they are still interested if you are otherwise interested in them as a candidate. Honestly, for an entry level position you may want to consider just asking them if they are ok with the range instead of asking them their desired salary.

          3. fhqwhgads*

            They’re the weird one. If they’d said they wanted 75-80 when you posted 60-70, I can see being surprised you didn’t phone screen them and see if they’re ok with your posted range. But 100 is SO FAR from 65, it’s completely reasonable on your end to take them at face value that you’re too far apart. That flabbergasted person made no sense.

          4. UnrealisticHopes*

            In my experience those are guidelines and are negotiable depending on the candidate. I’ve also seen jobs get reclassified to a higher position for really great candidates.

            Companies often start with salaries that are well below the going rate here (an extremely high COL area with high salaries) and have to either go up to hire someone who meets their requirements or adjust to hiring someone much more junior than they want. I’ve seen companies looking to pay $40-50k than the bottom of the going rate for certain positions – no one I know takes the first rates quoted seriously in those cases. Most of the time the salary gets adjusted once they start talking to people.

    2. Anon4this*

      Put the salary range in the ad.

      Also, do you offer bonus or equity? If you do put that in. Unless this is entry level that seems low level for sales or finance unless there’s a bonus or something involved.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If you are posting the salary range in the ad, and they are coming back 50% higher than your upper end, then I’d feel free to just ignore those applications.

      But if you aren’t posting that, then I really think you should, and probably also look at what else is in the job description. There may be a whole swath of people who aren’t applying because the job sounds out of their league.

      1. Turingtested*

        The salary range and duties are in the ad. Outside of HCOL areas, no one earns 100k/yr entry level at this job. My local competitors actually offer slightly lower salaries.

        Thanks for the feedback!

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          I would ignore the applicants who want $100k if you have the salary range in the ad.
          Don’t waste your time.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Agreed. You’re giving them the info up front to make a realistic bid. If they’re ignoring that and pegging themselves that much higher than the top of your range, that’s on them.

            You could try adding a line to your rejection letter – “The salary range for this role is $60-70k and we do not have the ability to go beyond that. Given the disparity between your minimum requirement and our range, we will not be moving forward with your candidacy.” And maybe another sentence leaving it open if they want to reach out and adjust their expectations. But if you’ve got plenty of good candidates, you don’t need to do that.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d say that even though you’re posting the salary, I wouldn’t be shocked if a lot of people were missing it entirely. That’s not great if attention to detail is important in the role, but if it’s not and you have an otherwise intriguing candidate in the 100k pool, it could be worth reaching out to them to say “We’d love to set up an interview, but I want to be clear that, as listed in the job posting, our salary range is $55-70k. Does it make sense to continue talking?” or whatever.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      Not rude at all. If you’re putting your salary in the ad, and they’re coming back with 30k over, then it’s completely reasonable to say “we cannot meet your salary expectations”. If this is coming up later than the phone screen or initial application review, I’d start asking about salary earlier, but I’d guess you’re already not doing that.

    6. Hlao-roo*

      More than half the applicants request a minimum salary of 100k.

      When are the applicants requesting a minimum salary? Is there are “what salary are you looking for?” question on the application? Are they saying this during a phone screen or during an interview?

      If it’s a question on the application, can you remove the question? Or can you replace it with one that says something along the lines of “I understand the starting salary for this role will be in the 60-70k range, based on experience and that is in line with my expectations” with a “yes/no” answer?

        2. linger*

          To an entry-level candidate, “desired salary” may read as “as long-term aspiration” rather than “as starting salary in this position”, so you’re setting yourself up for miscommunication. Drop the desired salary question, or else you’ll need to explicitly confirm whether or not your posted range will suffice for the candidate before deciding whether or not to move them forward.

    7. Generic Name*

      Unless you’re having trouble filling positions due to lack of qualified applicants, I’d ignore the ones asking for $100k. Since you’re posting the range in the ad, I’m curious how the applicants are requesting a desired salary. Do you have a system that asks everyone for salary requirements and won’t move an application forward unless they fill out a desired salary? Or are they stating that as their desired salary during a phone screen or something. If they are forced to declare a desired salary (despite you rightly posting a range in your ad), I’d see if you can change that requirement, as it’s kindof redundant.

      1. Retirednew*

        When you mentioned you were dealing with new grads, I think you should give them a little bit of slack. They probably got really crappy advice from their career center or their family saying “ask for a lot it can’t hurt.“ I would look at a couple of the resumes that seem the most promising outside of the salary requirements and talk with those folks. If they are set on 100 K then you know that you’re doing the right thing. But if like someone else mentioned, they say oh that would be fine, I was just told to ask for a lot, then you know there’s a lot of misinformation going around.

  32. Bongo Fury*

    I have a question.
    A year ago I transferred to a brand new position, mostly to keep my remote status because the commute was becoming unmanageable. I’d been on that first role only a year when they made coming into the office mandatory.

    My new manager is a bully. She is brand new to managing but has clear favorites, and myself and another coworker are not her favorites.

    Is it better to transfer again, after only a year? Or try to keep my head down for another bit and pad out my resume better?

    1. The Coolest Clown Around*

      I think you have the room to switch, but it depends a bit on your previous work history – do you have another longer position or two in the recent past you can point to as evidence of reliability? Even if you don’t, two year-long stints isn’t a dealbreaker, but I’d encourage you to take your time looking carefully at your next spot because three in a row starts to look like a problematic pattern.

      I’m sorry this is happening to you – it’s frustrating to feel like you’re being penalized for things outside of your control.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      You say you transferred – does that mean you stayed within the same company? If so then I’d count your current job as being two years long, which is a perfectly fine amount of time at a company. As long as they aren’t drastically different positions, they can both go under a single heading. Example:

      Marimbacorps, Inc June 2022 – Present
      Xylophone Mallet Coordinator July 2023 – Present, Marimba Mallet Coordinator June 2022 – July 2023
      -Accomplishments
      -Accomplishments

      Fwiw even if they’re completely separate jobs, there’s no harm in starting looking for a new job now. Job hunting (in my experience) takes a while, and you might as well get a head start. The time will pass regardless, and making an effort to get out of a terrible situation can sometimes make being in that situation a little easier.

      Good luck! I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

      1. Bongo Fury*

        Yes, I went from Job #1 to Job #2 in the same company, and now I might be looking at Job #3 at the same company. I keep telling myself the bullying is not so bad, but the person my boss loved to bully just quit and she’s the type that MUST have someone to offload all their frustration to, and I think I’m next in line.
        I should have known something was up when two weeks after I started another coworker quit dramatically and told me to “watch my back and make sure you kiss her butt”. I have so many stories about this lady, ugh.

        2. Policy Wonk*

          Has this person worked for your company long? If so, people probably know her reputation and won’t hold the short term against you. When I got a new boss who was a bully, I immediately started looking for a job and once people learned who I was working for they offered to help me find an opening.

          Honestly, I recommend you get out before she ruins your professional rep.

      2. Nemy*

        The only caveat that I would give on this is Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS) absolutely hate this kind of formatting. I had a similar experience and ATS systems always seem to think I worked at multiple companies instead of the same company with different roles. So I always have to enter this in manually to make it right on their “smart” systems.

        To me, that’s still a worthwhile tradeoff, but something to consider.

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      If you can transfer, I would certainly try to do so. Working for a bully who plays favorites isn’t going to do you any favors, mentally, emotionally or professionally.

    4. Brevity*

      Get out, now. Seriously. Get away from the bully before your job becomes soul-sucking. No amount of money or experience is worth the mental anguish, ever.

      1. not my usual self*

        This was going to be my advice as well. I’ve been away from my bully-boss who played favorites for more than 4 years now and I still get horrible twinges from time to time related to her unfairness.

  33. Jessen*

    Something I was thinking about from a letter earlier this week – are you really supposed to find a place to pull over and call or text someone the minute you know you’re supposed to be late? Does that mean it’s an professional expectation now that everyone has a hands-free setup in their car? In my experience it’s been the norm on times I’m running late for things that there’s nowhere you can safely and legally pull over without taking a detour to get off the highway and adding a decent chunk of time to an already long commute, so I’ve always been super confused when people insist I should have called. (And that’s if I can even get off at all. The worst offenders have been times I was trying to get somewhere and an accident ahead of me meant everyone got trapped on the interstate for 45min.) But people seemed to be talking like it was quick and easy to just pull over and make a phone call and that is extremely unusual in my experience.

    How would you handle situations this sort of situation if getting to a place where you can call or text just isn’t a realistic option?

    1. Anon4this*

      I think people understand if it’s an emergency or happens occasionally. Or set up Siri or similar on your phone to text verbally if needed. If you don’t have a cell then check traffic before you go and leave extra early.

      I always leave early for important meetings and check traffic if I’m driving. If it’s a pattern and you’re late for a lot of things you’ll need to figure out why.

      I find being constantly late and rude and disrespectful of people’s time. I understand if someone had an emergency or something but if it’s a team member or a family member (I have an uncle who is notoriously late for thing) I find it really disrespectful and talk to them about it.

    2. Jane Bingley*

      I think a job interview is different from everyday, because the stakes are so high and the relationship is so new.

      That being said, I generally check my itinerary before leaving and give the people I’m planning to meet a heads up if I think there’s a real chance I’ll be late, just for my own peace of mind. If it’s an accident or unexpected problem and it’s someone who knows me, I’ll call or text when I can but I won’t panic about it.

      1. Anon for This*

        Also, I think an explanation that you couldn’t text due to safety until such and such time helps. (But NOT as you’re walking into the building.)

        Not every place has decent traffic reporting. And due to the way my city is set up, I was once stopped by the same freight train twice. (I was a little late for a job I already had, but it was nbd.)

        1. Jessen*

          In my area it’s more that long drives are common, and traffic reporting doesn’t help much if the situation changes drastically once you’re on the highway. And 90% of your drive is going to be on the interstate most likely – so you’re looking at something like a 70min drive with 10min to get onto the interstate, 50min on the interstate, and 10min to get from the interstate to your destination, under ideal conditions. Worst case is something like, you get on the highway, 10min later something happens and it goes from perfectly clear to barely moving.

    3. Jaime*

      So even when you’re not moving and you’re trapped on the interstate, you still don’t feel it’s safe to call? Do you have Bluetooth in your car? Most people aren’t this rigid with road phone rules. If you’re moving, sure don’t call but if you aren’t going anywhere..

      1. Jessen*

        No, I don’t have bluetooth in my car. I used to have a thing that connected my phone via USB but it broke and I don’t think they make the parts anymore to fix it. And in most cases you’re moving 1-3 mph intermittently for the next several miles, in my experience, so it’s not quite stopped enough that you can devote your attention to a phone call but not really moving quickly enough to get anywhere either.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          Personally I would be very comfortable making a quick phone call in that circumstance, but not saying that’s the best advice

        2. lost academic*

          You can get a replacement for something like this for almost nothing these days. There are tons of options.

          1. Jessen*

            For one that’s hard-wired into the car? There’s a lot of options I’ve seen that are chargers but not so much for a plug that actually connects the phone to the car. It wasn’t exactly a high end car when it was new 15 years ago.

    4. juliebulie*

      This happened to me. It didn’t matter because I had no phone contact info from them anyway. I was late. I still got to do the interviews, but they didn’t like me enough to make up for my tardiness.

      I literally cannot deal with my phone in the car. I have a hands-free setup, but even that is much too distracting for me to drive safely. This particular incident took place in Boston traffic, where you need to have eyes in the back of your head and also very steady nerves. So, that didn’t work out.

      Of course I would have called if 1) I had a place where I could stop safely and 2) I had a phone number to call or text.

      During the interview I found out that they were going to move much farther away from where I live, which was already a haul. So the whole thing was a waste of everyone’s time. But you bet your bippy I’ll never again leave the house for an interview without contact info in-hand.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      I think it’s a combination of two things:

      1 – Drives where the entire drive or the last 10+ min are not on a highway and there are residential streets/business parking lots where you can easily pull over for a quick text phone call. If the plan is to exit the highway at 12:40 pm, park in the parking lot at 12:55 pm, and start the interview at 1pm and traffic is a little slower than usual so you instead are exiting the highway at 12:50pm, you have a few minutes to pull over on a side street/into a business parking lot to call the interviewer and say you won’t be there until 1:10pm. This of course does not help in cases where there is a severe crash on the highway and you’re stuck doing that 1-3 mph crawl for 45min.

      2 – A lot of people have a hands-free calling setup in the car and/or smartphones that can voice-to-text (through their cars radio/entertainment center/smartphone interface). Also, a lot of people are comfortable texting or calling (not hands free) while driving! This is unsafe and illegal in most places, but people still do it (see previous letters about people taking work video/voice calls while driving).

    6. I should really pick a name*

      For a job interview specifically, I think it is in your interest to notify them before the interview start time if you can do so safely.
      It doesn’t mean you need to pull over the moment the instant you know you will be late. But it means keeping an eye out for an opportunity.
      It’s not so much a professional expectation, as it is a suggestion to give you the best possible outcome.

      Telling someone you WILL be late simply looks better than telling them that you ARE late.

      And if you can’t do so safely, then you can’t.

    7. lost academic*

      Essentially yes.

      When you know you’re going to be late, find the first opportunity to safely and legally make contact with someone to let them know that you’ll be late and by how much. If you really aren’t sure by how much, you might want to wait a few minutes to get a clear idea, but err on the side of early notification or making a follow up call. In an interview situation, don’t assume that someone got or saw a text – make sure you reach someone.

      As to if it’s a professional expectation to assume that everyone has a hands free setup… well, I would say it is definitely the norm that everyone has a smartphone now so a voice activated phone call is essentially hands free. You don’t need to have a bluetooth setup in your car for that.

      I would say that your situation, where there’s nowhere to pull off at all – no exits whatsoever for a long period of time – is rare enough. If everyone was truly trapped in a standstill for 45 minutes, I’d assume you could turn off your car in that traffic jam for a minute and make the call.

      I lived in Atlanta with a long commute with tons of opportunities for delays and I’ll also add that in that situation, being a little late to regular things (like a regular workday) was often just… par for the course. But not for meetings, etc, and every workplace had their own definition of what excessively late was. In those situations you were still expected to call.

    8. Hyaline*

      I mean, if I were trapped in stopped traffic, law or no law, I’d have zero qualms sending a text..no one needs to know it wasn’t done with hands-free and if you’re literally stopped…well? In most cases, and maybe this is unpopular, but I feel like you usually kinda know–or OUGHT to know–well before zero hour that you’re going to be late. I think the best thing to do is that as soon as you’re pretty sure you’re running behind, you pull over and make the call, even if that actually adds a couple minutes, in situations like a job interview or other high-stakes thing. That might mean not having a perfect ETA, but I think “I hit an unexpected detour and it looks like I may be running late–I’ll be there as close to 2 pm as I can but it may be up to fifteen minutes behind” or whatever is better than waiting until you’re in a nail biter situation where you’re late and can’t pull over. (Plus then they can offer “Hey, we have a slot at 3/we could move this to tomorrow if that preferable/if you’re not here at 2, don’t bother” so there’s that, too.)

    10. ItsNotThatEasy*

      And for folks taking public transit, they may not get service while underground.

      And for folks who are disabled they may not be able to use their phone while walking.

  34. Jaid*

    I’m being “upskilled” into a larger skill set that uses manuals that are “slightly” different from the main ones. This skill set is meant to go behind other’s work and fix mistakes and apparently, it’s meant to be done fast so the error codes can be closed out quick.
    We’re being told to take off the orca hat and put on the shark one and woe betide if we refer to our orca manual in place of the shark version. Even if our orca manual is the OG.
    Anyway, I’m having a moment with our trainers, showing us their work and going wait. wut…. Like, we can’t contact our customers to verify payments, because what if they didn’t make the payments? They consider that disclosure?!?!

    Anyone else having some banana pants moments with trainers who are ignorant, yet enthusiastic?

  35. illuminate (they/them)*

    With a few letters and discussions of conferences lately, I as a very early career person have questions about them. (I onboarded as an intern in January 2020, so…)

    -If you find a conference you want to go to, should it directly benefit your current job to go? (I don’t have any requirements for continuing education credits or anything right now that I know of.)

    -If you’re approved for a conference, should you expect to bring back and share notes with your team on what you learned?

    -How far ahead should you plan and get approvals for a conference?

    -How do you get an idea about a conference culture? I’m in cybersecurity and Blackhat is a big one that I’ve heard of in the field, but from the grapevine, you shouldn’t go if you aren’t also personally interested and invested in cybersecurity, but I didn’t necessarily get that from the website. I’m also fairly young-and-femme presenting, and I’m not well plugged into networking yet for various reasons, and I get a bit concerned about personal safety…

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In my experience, it’s a lot easier to get approval for a local conference. Your employer is just writing off a day or two of labor, not shelling out actual cash for travel. I was fortunate when I was early-career to live in a company town (Greater DC area – government tech contracting) and there were plenty of conferences & trade shows.

      Conferences don’t have to benefit you right in the moment, but they ought to be at least generally applicable to what you do now or what you might be expected to be doing in the next 2 years.

      Yes, you absolutely should expect to share notes. Even better, if you know colleague A is working on subject X, get stuff specifically for them about that. Also, try to identify larger themes and share those with the group, not just general stream-of-consciousness stuff.

      Culture is actually much easier to figure out these days – because there are all sorts of online reviews & chatter about them. Between your colleagues & that stuff you ought to be able to figure out your comfort level vis-a-vis other attendees, off-hours events, etc. Don’t feel any pressure at all to attend happy hours or any off-site, off-hours stuff. If you meet somebody that you want to have a deeper conversation about, then arrange to meet during the happy hour or whatever. But in my experience random mingling isn’t necessary, or for that matter useful, as a way to network.

    2. EngGirl*

      I’ll attempt to answer these in order

      1.) it doesn’t necessarily have to benefit your specific job, but if you’re looking for your company to send you it needs to benefit your company and make sense for you to go. So if you’re in teapot design it may make sense for you to go to a porcelain manufacturing conference because that’s adjacent, but it would make little to no sense for you to go to a llama grooming conference.

      2.) 100% yes. You’re probably going to have to put together some sort of notes/presentation for your team, other interested teams, and several managers 1-3 levels above you depending on your org. You should also discuss your agenda with your manager before you go so that you don’t end up attending the panel on teapot history because you find it personally interesting when she really wants you to attend the panel on laser etching teapots.

      3.) That’s very company dependent and also depends on your history with the company and the relative prestige/confidence level of the conference. My old job I had to plan like a year in advance, my current job I could reasonably talk to my boss about something next month if it was something I could make a good case for.

      4.) google and talking to other people at your job who have gone before. Honestly for your first conference I would try to tag along with someone who’s already going rather than trying to do it solo.

    3. Hillary*

      This varies a lot by role & industry, and to a lesser extent by geography. The short answer is to ask your mentor, manager, or a more experienced colleague. Conferences are to learn, find vendors/customers, and/or network. Asking for money to go to one needs a value proposition that fits one of those.

      IMO going to a large industry conference isn’t worth it early career. For me they only became valuable once I had a network and specific goals. Even then I found less than half those conferences worth going back to the next year.

      A good way to start is with local groups. In engineering that can mean meetups, hackathons, demo nights, or smaller local conferences.

    4. Synaptically Unique*

      1) Definitely should be relevant in some way to your own work or at least for your department/division. Your employer is unlikely to pay for a conference you want to attend for personal edification.
      2) We don’t expect full-blown presentations, but definitely expect everyone to share any high-value ideas or practices that might make us better as a unit.
      3) We have to plan out budgets a year in advance. And we have a set professional development budget. I can’t send everyone to our main industry conference every year. We often only have enough for 2 or 3 people to go, so we take turns. I’ve also had people who really want to go pay at least part of their own expenses to stretch the budget. I help balance this by encouraging everyone to participate in online or local events – the largest expense for conferences isn’t usually the registration, it’s the travel and lodging.
      4) Start by looking at what your team has done in the past few years. That might help you determine which events have strong departmental support and can help you calibrate tone based on what you know of your coworkers. If you see a serious gap in the usual conference list, do the research and bring it to your boss. It’s probably worth at least trying a lot of different events until you can hone in on what brings you and your company the most value.

  36. Czech Mate*

    Would appreciate some advice about getting out of my 1:1s.

    I work in higher ed, so there are very strict tiers for payment/title. My coworker has to do database management, and so in order to get some higher pay and a better title, on paper the person in his position manages the person in my position. Dean has told me that it’s entirely so that coworker can have the pay and title. However, they feel that it’s good for me to meet regularly with someone for guidance on professional development.

    The thing is–my coworker is incompetent. I frequently do a lot of his job functions. We receive complaints about him all the time. He is active in a professional org that I’d like to become involved in someday, but based on how he’s been at those events, I frankly wouldn’t want to be associated with him when volunteering for positions within the org. He’s already been given warnings about his performance, but the 1:1s have continued.

    I should be able to grit my teeth and bear it, but they’re incredibly awkward (he doesn’t know anything about what I do and has no advice to give me) and infuriating (he talks about his own work and always claims to be swamped, but when I say, “So what are you swamped with? Do you need to delegate tasks to me?” he suddenly clams up, etc.). I’m just over the charade of pretending an incompetent man is my manager. I’m fine with him continuing to have the pay and the title, so we can keep everything the same on paper, but I want to tell the Dean that in real life I don’t want to playact that he’s my manager anymore. Any advice?

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      How is your relationship with the Dean? Based on the fact that he was candid with you about your “manager” only having that position on paper, it seems like you’re pretty safe to be candid with him too (within reason).

      If it were me, I would ask the Dean for a brief face to face, and then let him know that you appreciate his suggestion, but your 1:1’s have not been productive for you or “manager,” so going forward, you will only be scheduling them as-needed. (The unspoken part being that they are never needed and will never be scheduled.)

    2. Anon4this*

      Talk to your Dean or your grandboss. Be diplomatic and make it about what you need and see if you can report to another manager.

      Might you look for another role in a different department?

      A close family member of mine is having difficulty in higher ed right now and is looking to move. They are a Dean type level and advocating for their team- basically another team was promoted but they overspent budget (by a ton) didn’t meet their targets, etc.

      My family member advocated for multiple people on their team being promoted because they earned it. My family member was shut down even though the team members have done better work. It isn’t a competition but don’t promote people who literally do nothing, go hundreds of thousands over budget for a small program, etc and then the team that kicks everything out of the park and goes under budget you don’t even give them the same credit. And my family members team is a larger portfolio as well.

      My family member didn’t even advocate for themselves just the team. Needless to say they are helping the team look for other roles because they understand they aren’t appreciated and never will be. Higher ed for you!!!

      I know a few people in higher ed and you really need to leave in order to jump and there are so many dysfunctional parts if higher ed. I have worked in different fields but higher ed sounds to be one of the most chaotic.

    3. Goddess47*

      Document, document, document.

      If you have to do routine reports, check with your Dean, but copy the Dean so they are in the loop. You don’t want the coworker to be the only one who knows what you are doing.

      I spent my life working in IT in higher ed and we always said that no one is going to die if a database request goes wrong. Let your coworker fail. If it’s not your job and you have not been told by the Dean to do the database work, let it go wrong or not get done on a timely basis.

      And if your Dean wants you to meet with ‘someone’ about professional development, find someone else on campus and ask the Dean why the other person can’t be a ‘mentor’ to you. Professional development doesn’t have to be in IT.

      Good luck!

  37. Barren (apparently)*

    Hey! Are there any other not married, childless women in an in-person office here? I work for a school district and I’m the only woman in my department who has no kids and is not married (partnered) and in my 30s. It didn’t feel weird when I worked for a remote company, but I guess it’s unavoidable with small talk and most people’s conversations revolving around their kids. I don’t feel as “adult” as my peers, nor do I have as much I feel open about talking to them. Kids seem like a nice topic because you can talk about the fun antics of your children without getting personal. I’m even blanking on what I talked about at previous workplaces. I think books and hobbies. But most everyone in the office has younger kids, so it’s hard to have as much time for hobbies, and our conversation defaults back to their kids.

    My boss is married and without kids, but he doesn’t get the same kind of questions that I do. I think he wants to be friends with me because of we’re both childless, but I feel a bit awkward being friends.

    Anyways, I feel like it comes with working for a school district. I just feel like an odd bird being childless!

    1. HSE Compliance*

      Hi! Also in my 30s, generally in-plant or in-office. It’s really easy to feel like you are third-wheeling it in conversations, especially this time of year when school starts, and if the group tends to swing conversations back towards kids.

      In an office where this was really pushed on me (small, “we’re a faaaaaamily”), I handled it by bringing my hobbies in at lunch. I would read or knit in the break area, and be friendly at whoever came in or was near me. Eventually we ended up with a little crafting club that met every lunch, and the conversations flowed more between what we were working on, work, family, etc., and it didn’t feel *so* very kid-focused.

      It is hard though. I’ve kind of given up with finding friends at work. It seems most everyone in my age group has kids, and – with love – I don’t want to hear the nitty gritty details of what Mary Sue Jr. did at kindergarten every single day.

      (My husband has none of these struggles and a majority of his coworkers also have kids.)

    2. EngGirl*

      I have the same issues, single, early 30s, and child free. It can definitely feel sometimes like I’m a kid sitting at the grownups table when the talk turns to kids or even spouses.

      Like if everyone starts talking about things their husbands do that drive them crazy I end up chiming in with an agreement like “oh my dad does the same thing to my mom, it makes her nuts” and I feel like everyone is looking at me like I’m a child.

      Or people will be venting a bit about their kids and I’ll say something like “oof, I don’t know how you guys do it!” In an empathetic way and then again I get a weird vibe.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Speaking as a mid-40s woman with kids, I’m not currently in-office, but do go in every few months for retreats and all-staff meetings. I LOVE talking about stuff unrelated to kids with my coworkers. Last time I was in the office, I did talk about kids a little, but spent much more time talking about TV shows, what our colleges were like, changes at our workplace, books, etc. Of course, in my department, those of us with kids are more of a minority (about a third). A lot of us are pretty geeky, and we can always find something fun to talk about that isn’t about kids.

    4. EMP*

      Honestly I think it’s one of those things where no one WANT to only talk about their kids, but like you say, it’s easy, and it probably does take up most of their waking non-work hours. They probably feel like they’re boring but have nothing else to chat about some times. Do you have a pet? A socially acceptable hobby? Responding to a “what I did with the kids this weekend” story with a “that sounds so fun, I took a nature walk” is completely acceptable IMO.

      1. Childless Crone*

        Agreed. I find it helps to have one or two things that others know are interests or hobbies, or the name of a particular friend who comes up often in stories about what I did during time off. Just a couple of items for others to grab hold of in the same way that asking “what are the little ones thinking of for Halloween?” can be a go-to line during chitchat. If they can ask about your garden, or craft project, or niblings, or fandom, etc., it helps to keep this stuff more mutual.

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      I am unmarried, childless and working as a teacher and…I don’t feel in the least strange. I have a couple of colleagues around my age (early 40s) who are also unmarried and childless. I also have at least one, slightly older colleagues, who had children young in life, so they are now adults.

      When the conversation does turn to kids, I just talk about my nephew who happens to be the same age as a couple of colleagues’ kids.

    6. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      Hi – I’m early 30s femme queer woman who is not in anyway partnered and my only children are my 2 dogs. I work at an education nonprofit, so I can relate on so many levels.

      I’m also someone who loves talking about the zoo/museums/shows/books and my crafts, which have all been bonding points with my colleagues with kids because they go to zoos and museums, and they read adult books (but I can also recommend books I enjoyed at their children’s ages) and I’m happy to share my craft joys and frustrations with parents and kids as appropriate, LOL.

    7. Nightengale*

      I’m a single childless 48 year old pediatrician

      Right now my office is a mix of parents (with kids ranging from babies to adults with kids of their own) and non-parents. I’ve definitely been in settings where practically everyone else is a parent. Maybe because I’m a pediatrician, I’ve always been happy talking with other people about their kids.

      The weirdest/hardest was actually during my pediatrics training. Most of the trainees did not have kids but it was generally assumed we all would some day. Our attendings were always saying things like “when you have kids you will” [understand this parent experience better and be a better pediatrician because of it.] As someone who knew I did not plan to have kids of my own, I resented the implication that good pediatricians had to be parents. Now as a neurodivergent pediatrician specializing in the care of neurodivergent kids, I may not always understand the parent perspective but often understand the child’s!

  38. Baseball1*

    Does anyone else work in an environment where there is a stated policy that salaried employees may not use comp time? It’s actually spelled out multiple ways.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think our policy is that managers can’t and everyone ignores it. They don’t “officially” take it in that it’s not written down anywhere and doesn’t go into the HR system, but they shift their working days, i.e. if they’re in the office all weekend for an event, then they take Monday and Tuesday off.

      I imagine the viability of the above depends on a) the managers’ managers are reasonable people, and b) that you work in a sector that has a lot of work happening outside M-F 9-5, so of course you’re going to flex your time a bit. You don’t just work an extra 16 hours and then eat it.

    2. spcepickle*

      Define Comp time – Most of my team is salaried and overtime eligible (a sweet set up for them). So if they work past their scheduled shift or more than 80 hours they get to choose time and half in either money or comp time. The comp time is documented and kept in our time keeping software (it is capped and they have to use in a given amount of time).

      As a manger I am sort of eligible for exchange time meaning that if I work past my scheduled shift for very tight set of reasons (mostly off site meetings in the evening) I can in the same two week pay period do a straight exchange. So work 6-8pm Thursday night because I am at a public meeting, leave two hours early on Friday. Also captured in our time keeping software. In reality nobody does this and everyone winks and nods that managers have all kinds of flexibility as long as work as done and people can contact us. So I have been doing PT and leaving an hour early every Thur for the last 6 weeks, it does not show up on my timesheet and I do not bother to take sick time. I work well over 40 hours a week and my team knows how to get ahold of me if they really need something in the last hour of Thur. Nobody in my upper management has noticed or cared.

      And honestly if my management started caring I would start job searching.

      1. Baseball1*

        The policy states that no salaried employee may work adjusted hours or fewer hours to make up for additional hours worked or days worked outside of their typical schedule. Salaried employees are expected to work whatever hours are needed and always be available up respond.

        This is also an environment where people are called when on PTO and in which people get questioned or unable to “volunteer” when events happen. There is also lots of use of the idea that the workplace is a “family”

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Ooh this definitely sounds like it sucks. I’d be looking for new work if I was working lots of hours outside the regular schedule or getting called while on PTO. Family thing is a big red flag in the context of this info too. I’m sorry they’re like this!

        2. Excel Gardener*

          This sounds like a toxic culture.

          A lot of employers will not have an official comp time policy for salaried employees and essentially let each employee and their manager manage unofficial comp time on a case-by-base basis. But I’ve never heard of places that banned even informal comp time.

        3. spcepickle*

          That sounds sucky and toxic. I would start job hunting with that policy. I also think that places like this lead the movement for “quiet quitting”. I would make sure to only be available during my work hours and just throw side eye at anyone who questioned it. But I understand that is place of privilege not everyone has.

          If you wanted to google your state and laws about salaried positions it could be interesting. I think there are rules about being paid if you are on-call and even salaried employees can only be expected to work so many hours.

        4. EngGirl*

          Do you work at my old job? It wasn’t a written policy when I was there but it was treated like one… they used to ask us to travel on Sundays once a month, but were very explicit about not offering comp time.

          After one of these trips there was an issue with my car the next week and I had to leave half an hour early to get it to the shop. My boss asked when I would be making up the time.

    3. NoCompTime*

      Comp time isn’t a thing at most places I’ve worked, and the one that offered it because of legal requirements never actually let you take it. Either you get overtime pay or no extra compensation for extra hours.

  39. Partnership Qs*

    People who have bought into their companies to become an Owner –

    -What were the deciding factors that motivated you to take the plunge?
    -Any things you wish you had asked about in retrospect?
    -Any hesitations that you had? And were those cleared before you signed on or did they continue to be obstacles?
    -Anything that surprised you about the process?

    There’s an opportunity for me to buy into my small (<30 people) engineering company and become a principal/partner. I will still have project responsibilities but with the buy in I will also be brought into overall company decisions etc.

    1. Generic Name*

      I worked for a small (less than 80 people) consulting company, and while they never actually offered me the opportunity to buy in (one of the reasons why I don’t work there anymore), so I gave it a lot of thought when the company announced that they would be offering ownership to a select group. Here are my thoughts:

      -Do you 100% believe in the current leadership/ownership group? Do you think they generally make good decisions, treat people fairly, and do they actually know how to run a business?
      -How much money do you have to front for a buy in? Would you have to take out a loan to buy in? Do they offer a payment plan (that they take from your paycheck) to buy in?
      -Are there any major changes for the company on the horizon for your company? At my former company, they were selling voting/ownership shares to make the transition from an S-corp owned by an individual to an ESOP, so this meant that the company lost their small business/minority/women owned designation as well as the founder retiring and a new CEO taking their place. The company wasn’t as prepared for this transition as they thought they were.
      -I would talk to a financial advisor about the risks and benefits. If you have documentation of how the ownership share is set up, bring it to an expert. I now work for a much, much larger ESOP, and my advisor recently told me to buy in if I’m ever offered the opportunity for my company because the rate of return for the investment is 20% (versus 6% for stocks/mutual funds).
      -Do you foresee yourself working for this company for a long time, possibly until retirement? Do you like and respect the other principals/owners? Not that this type of decision is friendship based, but If you dislike or not trust the other people running the company, that’s not a good sign.
      -From what you see, does the company have what it takes to thrive long term? I ultimately didn’t want to buy into my last company because I didn’t think they’d last another 10 years after the founder retired. They are pretty clearly going downhill as we speak.

    2. Qwerty*

      Find out the business reasons why they are offering you to buy in. I’ve never made it to partner, but been at a couple places where new partners were added as a private capital raise. Which would have been fine if they’d been transparent about the reason rather than pretending it was a merit-based reason. Pay attention to if there are more people being offered partner this year / recent years than what is historically normal.

    3. allx*

      I have been in several law partnerships in the past, including small practices. In my hindsight view, especially the smaller the firm, the main reason to buy into a partnership is specifically for a share of the profits. Understand the terms surrounding the determination of your total compensation (salary plus bonus/profit share). Also, consider whether you are salaried or have to “earn” your draw (by being credited with billings sufficient to offset your draw) before you are eligible for bonus/profit share. If your work is based on billable hours and client generation, understand the rules around getting origination credit.

      Pay attention to the issues raised by Generic Name, as those are all excellent things to understand and go in with your eyes wide open. And ask for the partnership/membership agreement ahead of time and try to understand the things around money–how it’s shared, who decides, how much of profits are distributed (versus held in reserve or funneled back into the partnership).

      Right now it may seem like the opportunity is to have more say so in the business decisions, but in my jaded opinion, it is better to focus on the financial upside to you personally. I would liken early partnership to the opportunity to be in the room, but without much real power to sway decisions one way or another. Look at (in the partnership agreement) what is determined by a vote of all partners versus controlled by management committee and/or specialty committees. Look at how long executive roles are in power for, how they get re-elected, how often, and by what kind of vote. If ownership is weighted, those already in power may have sufficient ownership interest such that they control the votes that keep them in power. Look at whether voting/ownership is weighted or per capita. Look at what you are “buying” (a percentage share and how it compares to others’ interest).

      Also, see what happens under the partnership agreement if you leave. Many partnerships do not automatically pay out the amount you paid in and will also not pay any increased value based on firm success/growth. As they add new and additional partners, your contribution may get diluted so that what you paid in is worth less based on the overall value of the company than you paid in. Pay attention to whether in the event of a buy-out, payout is based on book value versus fair value and who decides that. For quick reference, a departing person would want valuation based on current fair value rather than book value. Also see who makes the valuation decision–decisions based on management discretion is generally not good. The answers are in the membership/partnership document. Read it and understand it before you commit.

      You will not be able to negotiate the terms of the partnership agreement (since presumably it pre-exists and has been signed by previous partners) but it is definitely in your interest to know what the terms mean when deciding whether it is the right move for you or not.

      Last thought, along with the right to share in the profits as an owner, you will take on the duty to be responsible for the liabilities of the organization. Make sure the company is financially sound. Try to educate yourself on the financial position of the company, the plans for growth, the ability to meet financial obligations as and when they become due. It is not unheard of for buy-ins to be a way to generate cash for the company.

      Good luck. I hope it is every bit as lucrative as you wish it to be.

  40. N C Kiddle*

    Volunteering is mostly still going well but I am still not over how happy they are to have my small contribution. Last week I went in the shop as a regular customer and stuck my head into the back to say hi. The bloke who runs the warehouse said that he would be short staffed the following day and asked if there was any chance I could come in. I didn’t have any other plans, so I agreed, and we got a fair amount done. (He also noticed that I haven’t been issued with work boots yet and have been working in trainers, which is apparently not ideal.) He thanked me profusely, and when I came in for my regular shift a couple of days later, so did the bloke who should have been working who was the reason they were short. Like, three or four separate mentions of how big a favour I’d done them.

    Is this a volunteering thing, like there’s no money so they have to be extra nice? Or is it a normal workplace thing and I just have imposter syndrome?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      A normal workplace shouldn’t have you working for free? I have no background on your situation but this is weird. I mean, fwiw you gave them the labor of multiple people for free when they were in a tight spot, I think it only makes sense they’re so grateful!

      1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one that clocked that this is weird. (I wrote my comment below before I saw yours.) I hope N C Kiddle comes back and replies with more details. Reading it again, I notice even more weirdness. Volunteer-driven non profits don’t have “customers” in the traditional sense, so I’m very curious to know what kind of place this is.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          It may be a non-profit thrift store like Goodwill or the Salvation Army. Those places (and others like them) can legally have volunteers, employees, and “customers” in the traditional sense.

          1. Cordelia*

            yes thats what I immediately thought, I didn’t see anything strange about it tbh. It sounded to me like NC Kiddle is a volunteer who went above and beyond – coming in on a day they weren’t scheduled and working hard behind the scenes – and the place is genuinely grateful. I think it is a volunteering thing to get more thanks and gratitude than you would in a paid workplace, it’s in lieu of actual pay!

          2. This Old House*

            I know our local food pantry also has a number of clients who also volunteer there. They are mostly staffed by volunteers, though they also have a handful of paid employees. So someone who volunteers there (completely aboveboard) could also come in as a “customer,” and there is lots of loading and unloading of trucks that I think does not require specialized safety equipment but can be sort of warehouse-y (boxes, storage, etc.) This sounds like something that could be not-sketchy at a place like that.

          3. N C Kiddle*

            Yes, it’s a British charity but very much along those lines. I volunteer in the warehouse/back room sorting and storing donations and come in at other times to browse the shop like any other customer.

    2. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Unpaid labor is not and will never be a “normal workplace thing.” Different standards apply with volunteers. You can find multiple letters in the archives of this site that show what I mean by that. Any organization that runs, in part or in whole, on volunteer labor is naturally going to be extremely grateful for what would be considered bare minimum in a paid workplace (e.g. showing up on time, not displaying any overt antisocial tendencies, being moderately functional).

      That said, your question flagged a couple of weird things for me. Warehouse labor is a highly unusual place to find volunteers. Flowing from that, it’s unusual for a volunteer to need to be issued industrial PPE-type supplies like boots. And the multiple references to concerns about shorting and coverage are typically only concerns for paid workplaces. What is it that you’re doing, exactly? How did you get involved with this? Have you noticed anything strange beyond their “excessive gratitude”?

    3. MigraineMonth*

      If you’re in the US, only non-profits can accept unpaid labor, and the volunteers cannot be doing the same work that regular employees are doing. Along with other commenters, I am skeptical that this is all above board, particularly since you seem to be doing volunteer labor that requires special protective gear; I’m betting there’s also training they’re required to give you on how to do that work without getting injured that they’ve decided to skip.

      I’m glad you’re getting appreciated! A certain level of appreciation is typical of workplaces; a “thanks!” when you do a task for someone and more effusive thanks if you do it on a short timeline or do a spectacular job is standard. Unfortunately, this level of thanks seems like it might be trying to love-bomb you into working for the company for free, which is clearly against your best interests.

      Your labor is valuable; that’s why they’re thanking you. You should be paid for it.

      1. N C Kiddle*

        “I’m betting there’s also training they’re required to give you on how to do that work without getting injured that they’ve decided to skip.”

        There was an online training that I completed before scheduling my first shift. The issue with the boots was that I arrived at lunch time when everyone was busy, there were no boots available in my size, and then I didn’t realise it might be an idea to chase that up.

      2. JustaTech*

        Just for the record, I used to volunteer at a food bank that made meals, so everyone who worked or volunteered in the kitchen wore a certain amount of “protective” gear (hair covering, apron, gloves) and I think everyone was required to get a food handling license, though there were some volunteers I really doubted that on.
        (In the US)
        There was also a sizeable paid staff, but they did the actual cooking while the volunteers did prep work or packaging.

    4. WellRed*

      Is this “volunteering” allowed if you also work there? But you really should be paid. Of course they are grateful. You’re offering free labor!

    5. N C Kiddle*

      It seems like trying to be as brief as possible, I left out important context. As Hlao-roo (Watership Down reference?) suggested, this is a thrift store, specifically selling furniture and electrical goods. They accept donations which we then sort and store as best we can until there’s space for them on the shop floor. My role is basically carrying (or helping to carry, in the case of heavier things) items from the warehouse to the shop floor, or back to the collection bay. They provide work boots just in case we drop a cabinet on our foot, and also hi viz vests, which I think mostly just mark us out as staff with permission to be in the warehouse (customers being in there unsupervised is against the rules).

      It’s heartening that the commenters are anxious to keep me from being exploited, but this is in fact a bona fide charity that I am volunteering for of my own free will.

      1. Cordelia*

        I think we have discovered another UK/US difference! I can see above you say this is a UK charity shop (thrift shop) which is what I had guessed, and so your experiences seem completely normal to me – they are pleased to have you as a volunteer, not only do you do your regular shifts, but you agreed to give extra help when they needed it, and they are appropriately grateful! There are no laws in the UK to say that volunteers can’t do the same work that regular employees are doing, as I have now learned is the case in the US. Ethical issues arise when volunteers are used to replace previously paid positions in public sector organisations such as libraries, but this isn’t the case in thrift shops and the like, which usually run with a couple of paid staff in charge, and volunteers working alongside them.

  41. Mad Scientist*

    Let’s talk about career fairs!

    I do some career fairs for my employer, and I also do some for a separate volunteer organization (we don’t directly hire anyone, but we help students find career opportunities in the industry). The organization I volunteer with also plans and hosts an annual hiring event, it’s a somewhat unique format for a career fair, and it was really popular back when I was a student several years ago. Apparently interest has gone down in recent years, and the folks involved in planning the event haven’t been able to figure out why (other than blaming COVID).

    So, if you’re a student, I’m curious to hear from you about this! What makes you decide whether or not to attend a career fair? Is there anything that would make these events more rewarding or engaging for you? What would you change about them? How far would you be willing to travel (if at all) and what do you typically do to prepare for these events (if at all)? Do you feel like it’s an effective method of job searching for you?

    And folks who do these events on the hiring side, I want to hear about your experiences! The good, bad, and ugly! Any weird trends you’ve noticed at these events, any funny stories? Any weird interactions with students or even other employers at the fair? Is it an effective recruiting method for you?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I haven’t been a student in a long time, but I remember going to lots of career fairs as one and as a fresh graduate or early in my career and I honestly found most of them to be useless. Maybe it’s because I graduated into a horrible recession and job market, but it seemed like every company there was looking for someone with incredibly specific experience, or lots of experience in general. Anyone that had something I might qualify for told me to just apply online. I might as well have looked at the list of companies attending and just checked their websites from the comfort of my own home for all the good going in person did me.

      Maybe I just went to a lot of crummy job fairs or maybe I went in a bad market, but I feel like the only thing that would encourage me to attend would be clear expectations of what I could get out of the fair:

      1. Who the companies are specifically looking to hire: like actual job listings/titles or the experience requirements so I can select out if I don’t fit anything. Or at least check my expectations! It’s disheartening to do all the prep work (print out resumes, have a quick spiel about yourself ready, get dressed up, travel, etc) to attend a career fair to only find out there’s nothing there for you.
      2. Who I’m going to meet: I’ve met and talked with a lotttt of people manning the booths who were only part of the event/promo committee and had no part of the hiring process or could tell me anything about the roles or culture beyond the standard fluffy “of course we’re wonderful to work for!” – it’s not that they weren’t lovely but chatting with them didn’t put me any closer to landing a job than I would have had just applying online
      3. Overall, what the benefit of going to this fair will actually be Are these jobs not listed online? Are they only looking to hire from people who attend the fair? Will there be people who can give honest insight into what working at the company is actually like? Are there going to be real networking opportunities? And I mean real, putting a group of job-hunters in a room does not a real networking opportunity make.

      I’m not trying to be super negative! I am 1000% open to believing I’ve just had bad experiences or it was a product of graduating in 2010. I’d be very interested to hear if other people have had good experiences with career fairs.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        This was my experience too. I went to one such event, back in early 2009, as a fresh STEM graduate with a whomping 7 months of experience. (Was class of 2008…my first job went away, along with the company it was attached to, because 2008.) The general vibe was very much “we’re in a hiring freeze right now but we’d already paid for the booth”. Never tried again, honestly.

        What is being offered here that the participants can’t get at home, in their pajamas, reading their jobs feed of choice? I’d make that as clear as possible.

      2. Wolf*

        Same experience in 2019: most booths were manned with people who didn’t know anything about the advertised positions (other than the text of the ad). All I got out of a conversation was “Please apply online” and some gimmick like a company-branded lanyard or a pen. It felt like an utter waste of time.

    2. Hillary*

      Are the students not interested? The employers? or both?

      Selling anything is about what’s in it for me (WIIFM). So tell the students or employers what’s in it for them. Can you put together any stats?

      I worked two career fairs a couple years ago at a large state school – business school one night and then all-campus the next day. We didn’t have a ton of applications but we had a very high offer/acceptance rate. It was absolutely effective, this year their booth was twice as large.

      The thing that was slightly frustrating was we were next to a very known employer. They had a line the whole time and many students ignored us.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      No longer a student, but was one relatively recently (graduated in 2021).

      The cold truth is that my classmates and I found them pretty much useless, because they didn’t seem to make an impact on any of our job searches. That said, I was in a field (accounting) where the hiring process in my region was very similar across every company in the industry. The Big 4 firms all opened applications in October, which meant that all the other companies did too because otherwise they’d be left with the people the Big 4 didn’t want, which meant that all the hiring happened in a very tightly-packed month and then it was basically done for the year. Everyone advertised online as well as in person, there were a relatively limited number of firms (well under 100 firms in the area) so it wasn’t hard to research them outside of a fair, and the positions were pretty similar from field to field.

      Some thoughts:
      1. It makes much more sense to go if either the industry is broadly applicable to students from many disciplines or it’s a discipline broadly applicable to many industries. In my case I was an accounting student primarily applying to accounting firms, so the overlap between “jobs I’m finding using online keyword searches” and “firms at the fair” was almost 100%.

      2. I would have been much more interested if going to the fair makes an impact on your chances of being hired. If you’ve got data to show that people are actually hiring directly based on decisions made from the fair, put that in the info you’re passing out/on the website you’ve got set up.

      3. Travel: the closer you can get to having the career fair actually on the college campus, the more likely you’re going to have success. A lot of students have tight budgets & limited transportation, especially in big cities where people rely on public transit.

      4. Tell students what to bring and what to expect. Even for those colleges with good career centers not everyone goes. First time I went to a job fair I had no clue what I should bring, do, or expect. So “wear business casual clothes, bring copies of your resume & college transcript, and expect to do a lot of quick chats with firms” would have been super helpful.

      1. Wolf*

        For 4: Yes, dress business casual. But YMMV for bringing copies. I always brought copies of my CV, but companies refused to take anything in paper – they just asked me to submit the same document online.

    4. SunnyShine*

      I went to a career fair on campus as a student. it was supposed to be a STEM fair, but I called it an engineering fair. I researched the companies, prepped my resume, and dressed nicely. At the end of it, they were all looking for engineers. No one was prepared to talk to other STEM students. It was a giant waste of my time and also discouraging because I didn’t know what I was going to do for a career. I was first generation to get a college degree.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes, this was my experience back in the early ’00s – I went to a tech school and the career fairs were for people in Computer Science, Engineering, and maybe Math.
        Nothing for physics or chemistry, and biology could yeet ourselves into the sun.

        It was *beyond* disheartening, especially when you know that things like Big Pharma and Big Chemistry exist.

        However, for the engineers and computer scientists it was pretty productive. Many companies sent alumni to staff the booths, so while you weren’t talking to hiring managers, you were talking to people who had very recently been in your shoes and were actually doing to job you wanted.

        1. Wolf*

          Your last sentence reminds me… I’ve had such awkward conversations at booths with people who were in their first week on the job! Why would a company send someone who hasn’t even completed their onboarding phase? I get that they want to be approachable for entry level applicants, but that should have been someone with a few months experience, not a few days.

    5. Mad Scientist*

      Thanks all! To clarify, I’ve found them mostly useless too, on both the student end and hiring end. The ones I participate in for work are usually pretty draining and we rarely make any hires from them, so I don’t find them a particularly great investment, but I still end up having to do them a few times a year anyway. Alas!

  42. Hopeful but a little bitter*

    I currently work in the fed government as a 7/9/11 and am going to grad school . Many of the upper level employees have time in grade to be 12s 13s or had a grad degree already and started at a higher grade. It was harder to get into grad school than I expected and it’s a lot of work. My degree directly correlates with the position and I like the program but no one here seems to care. I am hopeful that I can make it to 11 and then can move to 12 or 13 bc of masters but am unsure. Nothing in education is certain but how do I not feel bitter ? It’s relatively cheap online program but it takes up all of my non work time . I guess I wish I could know that someday it will be worth it ?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      It looks like you are in a ladder position that tops out at 11. So you should get automatic promotions each year until you reach that 11 (presuming your eval is good). In order to get a 12 (or 13) you will need to either apply for/be hired into a new position, or your boss would need to seek to reclassify your position. Not knowing your Department/Agency, job series, etc. I can’t comment on the importance of the Masters degree. If you do good work and have a good reputation you might be able to get that higher-level job without it. But I can tell you that as you get more senior, people will look for those credentials. So it might not immediately get you to the next grade, but it could be helpful in the long run. If you haven’t already, you should check to see if your Department /Agency provides tuition assistance.

      Good luck with your studies.

  43. Applesauced*

    Has anyone gone into labor in the office?

    I preemptively decided to work from home after 38 weeks, and everyone has been understanding. Part of that is comfort (I spend all day fidgeting and adjusting to get slightly more comfortable), wanting to be near my partner (full time WFH) , near the hospital, and part is a fear of going into labor or my water breaking in the office. Rational or not?

    1. Alex*

      I think all those reasons are rational and reasonable. Not that going into labor at work should be embarrassing or shameful or anything, but I can understand why you’d rather not! I think most people would rather not.

    2. MsM*

      Totally rational! Babies do not care where you are or what you are doing when they’re ready to show up. And even if you weren’t worried about it, like you said, it’s better to be where you’re comfortable.

    3. Seashell*

      I’ve given birth twice, worked for as long as I could, and no labor started during business hours. I’ve worked with various pregnant women, and none went into labor while at work that I can recall.

      If there’s no issue with working from home, I’d say that’s a good idea though.

    4. i am a human*

      I didn’t (my babies all had to be induced at 42 weeks, I gestate like an elephant), but a friend of mine’s water broke when she stood up after a meeting. She worked for a non-profit in family support services, so every coworker was a mom or worked with moms, so it wasn’t weird for her. I don’t see anything wrong with WFH in the last couple weeks (although in my case it would have turned into FOUR weeks, thanks, babies). Good luck with your pregnancy and labor!!

    5. numbers lady*

      A million years ago (40!) I had my water break while at work. It was not fun. I think that it’s great you’re able to work from home instead. I didn’t technically go into labor for many more hours, but I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone. :)

    6. lost academic*

      Fears are fears. I’ve known people that did have their water break in the office. I have known many more people who went into labor and their water didn’t break until well after they were at the hospital, including with my 2nd. With my 1st, I wasn’t even really sure my water broke until about 8 hours later (that’s apparently not at all uncommon because it’s not really like the classic media-portrayed situation). I think WFH at 38 weeks is totally reasonable just from the fatigue alone.

    7. Mom of 3*

      I started having contractions (spaced 20″ apart) with my first during a quarterly review with my boss. I didn’t say anything, and found it funny more than anything else. I ended up having my baby the next day.
      with my first, I likely could have worked from home at a certain point, but my commute was easy, it was an easy pregnancy, and I know my personality -I would have just been thinking about going into labor and driving myself crazy for two weeks. Congrats and good luck!

    8. Hyaline*

      I mean, keep in mind, for most people, “going into labor” is not a sudden and dramatic moment. You start having contractions…you think…maybe….ok, yeah, they’re actually regularly spaced…yep, this is it…and many hours later you finally amble your way to the hospital. It usually isn’t like the movies where your water breaks and there’s a Sea World style splash zone and you have to rush directly to the hospital. If this was the only thing holding you back from going to work, or you had to eat into limited leave to not go in, I’d say you’re probably fine. But if you’re more comfortable at home and can work from home? Yeah, do that!

    9. JustaTech*

      All perfectly rational.
      I did WFH for my last week before delivering mostly because I just didn’t feel like going into the office for all the reasons (not least that one of my coworkers had to drive another coworker to the hospital to give birth and it had been a slightly traumatic experience, so if I could make her happy, why not?).
      I ended up getting induced (much better than people described) so it wasn’t an issue, but I would not have wanted to be in the office just kind of waiting and going “is that it? Is *that* it?”

    10. Part Time Lab Tech*

      I don’t know anyone who went into labour at work. However it’s absolutely right to think about the logistics of this. I gave myself 6 weeks before my son’s due date because my work, my husband’s work and our town and hospital formed a triangle about an hour’s distance away from each other. He ended up being a week late but no-one can predict when natural labour is going to start.
      I currently work next to our state’s tertiary maternity hospital so I’d happily go into work until my hypothetical due date at the moment.

    11. Good Decision*

      Totally rational. So glad you can do this. With both my babies, I went into hard labor within 15-20 minutes after my labor started. Right away my contractions were two minutes apart, and I was essentially doubled over and unable to speak from the pain. I was so glad labor started when I was at home. For weeks, I worried it would start at work and I’d be stuck with my not very nice coworkers, 45 minutes away from the hospital and my spouse. I think you made a good decision.

  44. blueskies*

    Looking for any and all tips on working with a coworker who *loathes* you.
    Long story short, I have to work on a very high-profile, high-visibility project, and the point person is a coworker who has a long history of really, really disliking me. Unfortunately, it’s all personal stuff that I didn’t have any control over: I got engaged & married in the midst of her awful divorce, then I bought a house right when she was forced to downsize, and then I started a successful side hustle a couple years after her daughter’s small business failed. I do feel very bad for her, and I’ve never spoken about any of these life events in front of her, as a way to try to be sensitive. But nonetheless, she has spread nasty rumors about me (like that my grandboss only keeps me around for “eye candy”) and tried to undermine me at every single opportunity. My manager is well aware, as is HR (some behaviors became work-related and my manager looped them in). But now I’ve been assigned to work on a massively important project with her. She is already upset with some decisions that the Executive Director has made, so I can’t imagine she’s going to be easy to work with. Any tips are much appreciated!

    1. MsM*

      Honestly, it sounds like you’ve maybe been a little too considerate of her feelings. If she tries to start in with any nasty personal insinuations or grumbling about your personal life, remind her you’ve never shown her anything but professional courtesy, and you expect the same. If she tries to grumble about the ED or anything that’s not in your control, point out that it’s not in your control and you need to focus on X. And anything where you need her cooperation and she’s being recalcitrant for reasons that don’t pertain to the project or have already been signed off on by other people, pull in your allies.

    2. i am a human*

      I have a couple of people at work like this (they’re similar to one another so I have some theories as to why they hate me) and all you can do is be calm and professional. Don’t coddle her, just treat her like of course she will also be calm and professional. Leave the door open for her to make good choices with a backup plan to move forward if she refuses to engage appropriately. You will come out on top. I appreciate you’ve been sympathetic to her, but don’t let that sympathy get in the way of you doing what needs to be done on this project.

    3. Part Time Lab Tech*

      CYA Give regular updates in writing and limit no witness encounters. In your own behaviour be scrupulously friendly professional. I’m sorry, it’s so hard to work closely with someone who dislikes you. I find it hard to relax because anything you say can be given the worst possible interpretation.
      Having said that, it is possible that naming the dynamics may clear the air and when she actually gets to know you she may stop being so nasty. It might also help to point out that getting the project done well is in both your interests.

  45. DaBears*

    Those of you who carry health insurance for your families what do you pay? Is &7500 a year as high as it seems?

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      It depends. I went from a place where my company covered 80% of the premium for me, my husband, and my child (which ended up being about $4000 annual from me) to one where they would only cover 85% of my premium. With just me and my child on it it’s now about $6,500.

    3. Don't make me come over there*

      I’m not sure how closely this correlates to your situation, but I’m single and work for a small star-up that doesn’t offer benefits so I get my insurance through the ACA marketplace (healthcare.gov). For a gold plan for 1 person I pay $6600/yr, which includes a small subsidy. It would be $7000/yr without.

      1. Ouch*

        Where are you all getting your insurance? I’ve been getting quotes for family of 4 that are running about $3k/month. These policies have $10k deductibles as well. Maybe its just being in rural midwest, but I’m being told there are really only a couple of companies to choose from in our area.

    4. Name (Required)*

      It’s about $5,000/year at my employer, which is a lot less than my last employer. I think $7500 is reasonable if the coverage is good.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Mine is $6,576/year, and there’s a $300 deductible for the whole family for in-network services, but it doesn’t actually apply for a lot of things (mostly ER and hospital visits).

    6. Cat lady*

      That seems reasonable for family coverage. I know people who pay upwards of $10K for family top-tier insurance.

    7. Kay*

      For 2 of us – just medical (not including dental/vision) on a high deductible HSA plan we pay 7580. I wouldn’t call the plan great either.

    8. Parenthesis Guy*

      There’s a lot of difference in health care plans. A plan that has a deductible of $8k and an in-network max of $16k with coinsurance at 60% should have much lower premiums than a plan with a deductible of $0k and a $2k in network out of pocket max.

      For a cadillac plan $7.5k per year is fine. For a junky plan, that’s a lot.

    10. Wordybird*

      I pay $500/month for my partner, my kids, and me with an $8000 family deductible. I don’t know if that’s good or not. At my job, there is no monetary difference between providing insurance for just your partner and providing insurance for your partner + kids & my partner’s employer does not offer insurance so mine it is.

    11. RussianInTexas*

      It would be a lot more expensive in my company because they only subsidize the premiums of the employee but not the rest of the family. The family coverage would run you around $12k. The deductible would be around $5k I believe ($3000/year for the single coverage. $120/month premium).
      This is the regular PPO, not low premiums/high deductible plan. It covers a lot, has a ton of doctors in networks, but the premiums and the deductible are biting.

    12. LookAtTheFullCosts*

      You want to look at the total cost, not just the premium. Some plans are structured to have lower premiums but higher deductibles and higher out of pocket maximums. Some have high premiums and lower deductibles and out of pocket maximums. Some are in between.

    13. Clisby*

      I’m retired, but on my husband’s health insurance, which pays the full premium for a family policy. I qualify for Medicare but am not even using it because it would cost more.

  46. Former musician*

    I am looking for advice on how to network for a career pivot. I am in my late 30s with a background in performing arts and arts education. I’ve spent the last 5ish years running a very successful small business teaching music classes and lessons, but I am pretty burnt out from the constant hustle and long hours that come with being self-employed and juggling performing gigs. I’m hoping to transition into office work in admin or bookkeeping, at least initially, and rebuild a new career with better work-life balance and a more stable paycheck from there.

    I have all of the soft skills that would make me an amazing employee in either of those roles – detail oriented, self-motivated, solid customer service skills, organizated, reliable, excellent communication, etc, and can back that up with concrete evidence from successes in my business.

    But – I’m not getting hits at all with applications, and I think it may be partially because my work experience isn’t in a traditional office setting. I’ve reached out to a few staffing agencies that do admin placements and haven’t even had much luck there.

    I keep reading that networking is important for finding a job but I’m not quite sure what that means, practically speaking, or how to do it when I’m trying to pivot into a new field. Can anyone offer any practical suggestions for things I can do to help get my foot in the door somewhere?

    I’m currently doing a few small volunteer roles and will be taking some online courses this fall to level up useful skills. Possibly relevant background info is that I moved recently for a relationship that didn’t pan out, so I’m really starting from scratch with connections in this location.

    1. MsM*

      For bookkeeping in particular, I think it’s less about your experience being nontraditional and more about making sure you’re emphasizing the right skills. It’s great that you’re personable, but what I really need to know is if you’re proficient in Quickbooks and have examples of how you’ve created more efficient processes for tracking invoices or tax compliance requirements. The fact that you’re going from being in charge to a role that doesn’t necessarily have a lot of decision-making power might also be making employers concerned about whether you really know what you’re getting into and will want to stick around, so if you have the opportunity to address that in a cover letter, you should.

      In terms of networking, you could look for professional meetups in the area and ask for advice or see if people in the kind of roles you want would be willing to do informational interviews with you.

    2. Excel Gardener*

      Are you emphasizing the admin responsibilities you had as a business owner?

      I wonder if you could also tweak your title on your resume. Maybe put your title as “Small Business Owner” or “Sole Proprietor” instead of “Music Teacher”, if you’re not doing that. Basically framing it as “I administered a business that happened to provide music lessons” rather than “I was an independent music teacher who owned a business”.

    3. Name (Required)*

      I’m wondering if you can combine both things by looking for a job as an admin or bookkeeper at a music store or school, or a performing arts theater. You’d probably be a good candidate because you would understand how things worked better than someone without that experience. It might be a good way to ease into the new career.

    4. Cordelia*

      you talk about the soft skills you have, but don’t mention the actual hard skills (is that a thing?!) If you’re doing the same in your applications, maybe that’s an issue? Do you have actual skills in admin and/or bookkeeping? I’m sure you do, having run your own business – maybe you need to emphasise those more.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      For networking, I suggest reading these past posts:

      “I hate the idea of networking — it feels slimy” from March 13, 2018

      “what’s the best networking experience you’ve had?” from March 25, 2021

      “is networking overrated?” from February 8, 2022

      Unrelated to networking, do the roles you’re applying for have an option to submit a cover letter? If so, a cover letter seems like the best place to lay out all of the good soft skills you have and how they relate to the job you’re applying for.

    6. Brevity*

      What about an arts admin conference? There must be at least one professional association for people in arts administration, probably more than one just for music arts administration. I know conferences can be expensive, but it seems like an ideal place to network and talk shop with other people who wrangle schedules, sheet music, etc.

  47. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    Inspired by the interview at the animal rescue question, have you ever worn something to an interview that turned out to be a poor decision?

    I dressed up as I thought I should (business casual) for an internship interview, including heels. However, my interviewer unexpectedly not only took me on a facility tour, but included tromping through the freshly turned soil in the community garden. (One of that director’s biggest criticisms of me at the end of that internship was that I dressed up too much.)

    1. SusieQQ*

      I wore dress slacks, a blouse, and a blazer to a job interview. During the interview, they revealed that they have a dress code that requires women to wear either a dress or skirts. Dress slacks are not allowed.

      They didn’t offer me the job, and I would have declined it anyway.

      This was an agricultural magazine publishing company in Nebraska, by the way. The last time I checked their Glassdoor reviews, which was admittedly a long time ago, they still had the same dress code. And in case anyone’s wondering, men were required to wear a suit and tie.

      Makes me wonder what they ask of non-binary folks, heh.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        In the 21st century?! I suspect that if someone asked them what their rules are for non-binary people, their brains would explode at the idea that such people might exist.

        1. SusieQQ*

          I know, I couldn’t believe it. Seems archaic, sexist, and borderline discriminatory. But I mean …. in the politest way possible, it was fairly consistent with a lot of other experiences I had living in Nebraska.

          I don’t live there anymore. :)

    2. Pay no attention...*

      Yes. Similar to you I dressed up for an interview in business wear for an office job and they took me on a walking tour of the adjacent manufacturing facility that required hard hat, safety glasses and steel-toed shoes. Lucky for me, they absolutely didn’t expect I would come dressed in PPE so they provided the hat and glasses and there were marked spaces where a person out of steel-toed shoes could walk/stand.

      Another time, I was dressed business wear again and the company was very trendy street style. I knew right away this wasn’t the job for me, and the interviewer was very nice but indicated they didn’t think it was a good match either, so we wrapped it up quickly.

      1. Orv*

        I feel like if you’re required to have specific safety equipment, like steel-toed shoes, that’s on them to tell you about.

        I once did an internship with a railroad, and one of the first things they did was take me out and buy me a pair of steel-toed boots, at company expense. The internship was a bust but I used those boots for YEARS.

    3. i am a human*

      When he was just about to graduate college, my husband wore a suit to an interview on a Friday. It was casual Friday and every last interviewer poked fun at him for being so dressed up. He got the job, but like, how was he supposed to know??

    4. Maryn*

      Not me, but a colleague I worked with in Boston, where it was typical for people in his position to wear a suit. He was interviewing for a similar position in California to be nearer his aging parents and arrived in a three-piece suit. He was early and noticed no one was dressed like him, so in the men’s room he took off the vest and tie, then the jacket, carrying it all over one arm. He rolled up his sleeves and opened his collar.

      It wasn’t enough. During the interview, he still felt overdressed, as the person conducting the interview was in sports shorts and a T-shirt.

      He did not get the job.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I mean, I’m West Coast and I interview in nice slacks and a collared shirt with the collar open and sleeves rolled up. I’m usually dressed nicer than my interviewers, but that’s not a bad thing in an interview setting. I think he made a good call dressing down to the best of his ability in that moment.

    5. A Significant Tree*

      When I was a senior in college I bought an interview suit in February in hopes of having interviews that spring. My interview outfit was a very dark colored pantsuit where the jacket had a built-in vest meant to be worn buttoned up as an all-in-one top (meaning no shirt needed underneath). Well, I did get an interview, in Houston, in May. It was close to 90 deg and very humid. I was *dying* in the heat. Even the overly air conditioned buildings didn’t help much because there was a walking tour between buildings and a lunch at a nearby restaurant.

      I did get that job and never heard a word about my wearing a winter suit to a hot climate, though I did get razzed about wearing biz casual on the first Friday I worked there, because no one had told me we were allowed to wear jeans. I loved that job.

    6. Wolf*

      I was a fresh graduate, with a small budget. Also, I was goth.

      So, I did buy a suit for interviews. And then I thought, well, you’re supposed to wear nice black leather shows with a black suit! And my budget didn’t allow to buy new shoes. So, goth-style steel toe boots with the suit seemed reasonable.

      Reader, I got the job. Later, a member of the interview committee told me those shoes were the wrong choice, but she liked them because she knew we’d share a music preference for the lab radio.

  48. Throwaway Name*

    I posted here last week about the feelings of guilt I have over having a cushy job but not working very hard, both in terms of hours and worked and effort exerted. Thank you to everyone who commented, especially the person who suggested I talk to a therapist. I regularly see a therapist, so I did just that!

    My therapist helped me to reframe things in my mind, and to really focus in on the fact that I’m compensated for the value I provide, not how long or hard I work. She also helped me come up with some strategies to generally describe the work that I do so I can stop lying to my co-workers, since that feels so bad to me. Instead of giving a list of specific tasks I do that are largely untrue, I can speak in very general terms about the work that I’m actually doing. As an extreme example, instead of saying something like “I spent 10 seconds replying to an email confirming the date of an event” which makes me feel like I have to lie about what I did with the rest of my time, I can just say that I did event planning. Then if anyone has questions or wants me to go into more detail, the onus is on them to ask.

    1. Throwaway Name*

      Also worth noting that when you have a job history of being chronically overworked, NOT being overworked can feel like you’re not working hard enough. #corporatetraumaisreal

    2. Generic Name*

      I’m glad you are able to reframe things in your mind! I recently got a promotion so I’m less of a doer and more of a manager. I’m expected to delegate a lot, the idea being I can use my knowledge and influence to support multiple projects. So I often feel like all I do is go to meetings and answer emails and in-person questions. Most of the meetings I’m not running and I just will occasionally chime in with something, while others are asking my opinions on stuff. Compared to the fieldwork and report writing and project management I used to do, this feels like a breeze. Like all I do is sit here and occasionally share opinions, ha ha.

  49. Quaremie*

    Not sure if this is already been asked and I missed it. I manage a remote team, and at least one of them was severely impacted by last night’s storm – her house was essentially destroyed. (Another individual I have not been able to get in touch with and I know she was in an area that is in the news as being very flooded). What are some ways that I can support these team members? For the person whose house was destroyed, we’ve given her at least the next week off (with pay, outside of regular PTO allowances) to begin to take care of some of the things that will need to be taken care of. I checked with HR and there is no specific help or resources our company has for this sort of situation. is there anything else we could do that would be helpful in the situation?

    Hope everyone is safe out there.

    1. Bookworm*

      Depending on where she ends up, perhaps the company could pay for better internet service/ship her a good hotspot? Did the company provide her with a work laptop or did she work on her own machine? If she provided her own machine, perhaps the company could ship her a laptop?

      1. Quaremie*

        The company has provided laptops, but keeping an eye on the internet service would be a great idea. Thank you!

        1. Bookworm*

          I wasn’t sure if employee had evacuated and taken her work laptop or if her house was destroyed by a tree(s) while she was in it.

          1. Quaremie*

            I am almost sure she was in it judging by the damage she described at 6 am this morning. It must have been absolutely terrifying. Certainly if her equipment was damaged it would be replaced ASAP.

            1. Bookworm*

              Ugh. I’m sorry for her. I have friends in the southeast I’m waiting with bated breath to hear from.

      2. illuminate (they/them)*

        This, definitely. A friend of mine is in western NC and she has no power from the storm and even 911 is down. If the company can help pay for phone service, a hotspot, a hotel room, a rental car even for a few days, it may be a massive relief.

          1. Bookworm*

            Some sort of electronic transfer/direct deposit would work, as long as the employee’s bank is still working and accessible. But as long as there is a banking app, funds should be accessible.

    2. WellRed*

      I talked to someone for a story yesterday that I’ve never spoken with before. He’s in Tampa and didn’t seem concerned when I asked. Seeing the news this morning, I hope he’s OK.

    3. not my usual self*

      Hmm… a little over a decade ago I lost everything due to a natural disaster. Though all of my co-workers lived in the same general area, I lived a town over from most of them so I was the only one affected in that way. I didn’t ask for anything but they chipped in and gave me some things like a laundry basket, blanket, towels, cleaning supplies, silverware, etc. that I would need for daily living. Since this is a remote workplace, maybe a gift card to something like a grocery store or Target? I still remember spending over $5o on just spices at the grocery store so that I could start cooking again once I was living in a new place….

  50. From one GM to another*

    I’d love to hear about how folks are effectively using AI in their job searches. Clearly it’s not great to use it to write a cover letter or resume for you, but what about using it to cut down relevant experience bullets to two pages, or to help you know how close of a match for a job you might be? How are you using it to speed up or make your job search less discouraging?

    1. Glazed Donut*

      I used AI to describe a job posting (identify the major areas of work for the role) and to write interview questions so I could practice answers. I’m hesitant to put my own resume into the AI machine so I’ve stayed away from that.

    2. Qwerty*

      I found GenAI to be a great thesaurus because I tend to use the same words over and over. I’ll use prompts like “give me alternate words for ‘Created’ ” or “please provide 5 options to rephrase ” That way the resume and cover letter all are in my voice and using my knowledge, but just tweaking the flow.

    3. H/W for the Win*

      I use ChatGPT to

      Evaluate the job posting
      – What problems is the employer trying to solve by hiring for this position?
      — Create 1 interview question I can ask about each problem area.
      – Red flags of the role
      — Create 1 interview question I can ask the employer re: each red flag
      – The sentiment of the org via the j.d. (you’d be suprised what can be gleaned about the org) you could add the org/company URL for additional outputs.

      Cover letter
      – (N) hard and (N) soft skills
      – 5-7 responsibilities (if not well described in the j.d.) and the Top 3 responsibilities
      – Review ORG website and detail why and how the ROLE reflects their vision, mission and programs and services of the organization (this often details tasks and responsibilities, too)
      significant achievements the employer would like to see on the cover letter that best reflect the j.d. and responsibilities

      Resume
      – compare/contrast the j.d. with my resume asking for better worded/designed bullets.
      – Review this job description and compare it to my resume. Suggest stronger action verbs and clearer descriptions to improve my resume

      Interview
      – Using the job description suggest (N) interview questions the employer is likely to ask
      – Using the interview questions, detail a response using the STAR-I method (Situation, Task, Action, Response, Improvement)
      – Suggest 5 or more interview questions that I can ask about the responsibilities and tasks.

      I’ve not seen good results asking for a fully formed cover letter or resume. I find the drafts/proofs give me something worthwhile to update with my information.

      I’ve stopped applying for some roles, that I thought initially read well, due to my research process using ChatGPT. One in particular, I missed reading in the job posting about how the role would spearhead the office move in 2025; I saw it in the ‘red flag’ outputs. That alone didn’t make me turn away from the role, but reading how I couldn’t get enough from my roles and experience to transition from non-profit fundraising to non-profit operations (although I had it in my background and in most roles), I realized it was too much of a square peg for the round opportunity.

  51. Polly Sprocket*

    I need advice on how to handle a social situation at work. I’m on a fully remote team, and my boss has started scheduling weekly Zoom “hangouts” for us – a purely social hour, since we don’t have the usual in-person chit-chat opportunities. Attendance is not technically required, but I try to attend every 2-3 times (although I absolutely loathe these hangouts).

    My problem now is that I recently lost a pregnancy due to medical complications at 6 months, but there are a lot of babies on my team – one coworker’s wife had a baby this summer, and another coworker is pregnant and due in December. My baby was supposed to be due in November. My boss knew I was pregnant, but my coworkers don’t know. I’m very anxious about these team hangouts now, because without a structured meeting agenda, I’m worried it’s going to become a lot of baby talk, which I really would like to avoid for mental health reasons. But I’m also worried about looking anti-social or missing out on other important team relationship-building if I don’t attend at all. Any thoughts on how to approach this?

    1. Seven times*

      Be really upfront with your boss about your need for privacy around this first! I don’t know what your relationship is with them, but it may help for them to look at ways to discuss your absence from these events to the team.

      Also, consider seeing if you can “drop in”. Make an appearance, but be clear that you can’t be there the whole time. Again, if your boss can be supportive in this without sharing your private information, it’s even better.

      Most of all, make sure that your boundaries are explicit with your boss. Some people don’t know what’s appropriate to share!

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Seconding the drop in. Do a quick hello, hang out for like five minutes, and then depart when you feel comfortable — either after five minutes or, if you’re enjoying yourself and do want to stay a bit longer, when the baby talk starts. You don’t have to formally leave the meeting by announcing your departure, just end the call on your end while someone else is commanding the room. If you were all meeting in person, you’d probably have an opportunity to sneak away while the chatting was going on, so think of it in that way.

    2. From one GM to another*

      “Oh I’m getting a phone call” “Someone’s at the door I have to drop” “I have another commitment so I’ll have to catch you all next time” repeat as often as you need to when baby stuff comes up. You can drop it in the chat and then just leave.

    3. Cordelia*

      do people always come and stay for the whole hour? or can you drop in, stay if you are involved in useful relationship-building conversations, and leave if the talk becomes upsetting? Say at the beginning “I’ve just come along to say hi, I can’t stay long but nice to see everyone”, then at least your presence is noted

    4. Hyaline*

      I hate Zoom hangouts. They reek of the endemic depression of lockdown era to me. I would rather clean bathrooms than attend one, and I don’t even have a good reason. But I definitely see the need to feel like you’re putting in face time, and there probably is some value in that. I think on your every 2-3 hangout appearance rotation (which maybe you can bump up to 3-4), make it clear when you say hi that you’ve got pressing stuff and probably can’t stay long, and then if the conversation shifts a direction you’re not comfortable with, drop a “gotta go, great to see you all, bye!” in the chat and peace out. (And if not, and you’re enjoying yourself, cool! You can stay!) You can clue your boss in, or not, depending on if you want to and if you feel they can be discreet (or if you want them to NOT be discreet and clue others in that you’re peace-ing out because of the baby talk, I think that’s fair, too!).

    6. allathian*

      I’m so sorry for your loss and for having to deal with this.

      We’ve had similar hangouts on my team, but they’re only 15 minutes, although theoretically 3 times a week. Now that we’re hybrid, attendance’s a lot lower than it was during mandatory WFH. Thankfully we would plenty to talk about without any one subject monopolizing the conversations.

      Is there anything you would enjoy talking with your coworkers about that isn’t directly work-related? If so, try to lead with that.

  52. Anon for this one*

    My organisation has a major event every other year. It’s always on a weekend, and it changes location each event from our home city to another major city across the country. When we travel for it, two people attend from each department. When it is held in our home city, it is expected that everyone attend at least some of it.

    This year, it’s in our home city for the first time since I’ve worked here. Myself and another manager, who is new, are both having the same issue of… our staff all made plans that weekend. They don’t understand why they should have to work on a weekend. These are not junior positions who are the problem. They are all director-level managers and above, and I can’t believe I need to have a conversation about this when it has been stated so plainly from the C-suite.

    I am finding it hard to find the words to address this that don’t start with “first of all, what the hell?” Can someone please help me with this? As a reminder this is ONE weekend every other year, that is posted for the next 5 years on our master calendar. It is not simply that they didn’t know.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Do you even have standing to address this if they’re all director-level managers and above? If it’s coming from the C-suite and they report to the C-suite, this sounds like a C-suite problem.

      That said, I’d re-examine the necessity of everyone attending just because it’s in your home city. Why does everyone need to be there? Is it to glad hand other attendees? Does it look bad on your company to not be there because companies in other host cities attend in droves when they’re locally held? Is it because you don’t have to pay flights and hotels so you’re sending a ton of people simply because you can? etc. I’m sure there are many good reasons to attend, I just think it’s also worth re-examining why it’s so necessary if you get by with just two reps in other years.

      I can’t tell from the description if you’re attending as guests/attendees or if there’s work your team has to do while there. If there’s work, you may have more standing to raise it with the C-suite folks so that the burden doesn’t fall to just you and the other manager.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I agree. Just because it’s on the calendar doesn’t mean that any will either look at the calendar or make the connection that they are required to go.

        And you still need to understand that some plans are not able to be rearranged. (For example, if someone is attending a wedding that weekend.)

      2. Anon for this one*

        Sorry for a little clarification – they are directors who report to me. There are work responsibilities when attending.

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      It’s a bit confusing because if these are all senior people, haven’t they done this before so they know what’s entailed?

      Or could it be that the time commitment is different when it’s in your home city.. Maybe they think they don’t have to travel so they could still have plans and also attend a little bit?

      Or is the requirement for everyone to attend just on paper, and if you’re senior enough you can get out of it?

      Sorry all I have are more questions :)

      1. Anon for this one*

        Definitely required! It makes our department look REALLY bad if the directors don’t attend, and the work they were supposed to be doing falls on other people. I will hear about it from the CEO. They don’t need to be there for the whole thing, but there are particular things that they need to be at.

    3. shrambo*

      “It is expected that everyone attend at least some of it.” Does “expected” mean that you explicitly told all staff that everyone, yes EVERYONE, would need to block off that entire weekend and plan to do nothing but attend the event? Because that seems to be what you were expecting them to do. If not, then it’s on you, not them. People have lives and it’s not unreasonable for them to do non-work things on the weekend.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      I feel like in your position, I probably would have sent out a reminder to my staff at least a few months in advance–maybe six months even–to say something like, “as a reminder, the Big Event is happening here in Metropolis this October. The dates are 10/26-27, and that’s on our master calendar. While we only send a couple of people from each department to the more distant Big Events, the CEO expects EVERYONE to attend at least part of that weekend when it’s here in Metropolis. Please be mindful of that and keep your calendars clear that weekend. If you have prior commitments that absolutely can’t be moved, let me know, but otherwise I want to make sure everyone is there.”

      The requirement to attend is not unreasonable, but clear communication in advance is important to ensure that everyone is able to meet that requirement. It sounds like the occurrence of this event in your city, and the all-hands requirement, is a rare thing, and BECAUSE it’s such a rare thing, the communication from the top is even more important. Did that happen? Was it clear that your reports actually knew about this (not that they SHOULD have known, but that they DID know) when they made their plans?

      1. Kay*

        This. I probably would have done it at the start of the year to say something similar, then followed up at the 6 month mark, etc.

      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        This is a once-every-four-years expectation. Someone who’s worked there less than four years has never experienced it. Someone who’s worked there less than eight years has experienced it once (at the beginning of Covid, to boot).

        If you didn’t explicitly lay out the dates and the expectation well in advance and then reminders every few months since then, that’s on you. There is a big difference between generally knowing a thing happens one weekend every few years, and specifically being told dates and expectations with enough lead time to actually plan around those expectations.

    5. Rara Avis*

      I know most Americans don’t work under contract, but I do, and each year we are presented with a list of required functions that fall outside of the normal workday. (It’s 4 weekend days a year.) These are defined as “all hands on deck” events and it is almost impossible to get excused for any reason (aside from illness). If you aren’t contracted, your company must have another way to communicate requirements to employees. Since you are fairly new, it sounds like someone else dropped the ball on that communication.

    6. Strive to Excel*

      I mean… what the hell.

      Realistically, just because something is on a calendar doesn’t mean people will read or understand it, so I would have also recommended sending out an email at the 6, 3, and 1 month marks specifically to the people who are required to attend saying “REMINDER – REQUIRED ATTENDANCE AT THE LLAMA CONFERENCE ON 10/6/24” in the subject line. (Assuming you didn’t – if you did, disregard this ofc).

      In terms of talking with them, I guess I’d be blunt. “You are required to attend X hours of the llama conference this weekend. It’s up to you how you do it, but this is a mandatory requirement of your position.”

      And if director-level managers don’t understand that director-level pay and power comes with director-level responsibilities, I’d take a good hard look at the rest of their decision-making to see if this is a pattern or a one-off.

    7. Hyaline*

      Have they done this before, and so should absolutely know the expectation? Have they been reminded of the expectation, early and often? Are you *sure* they didn’t know–sure, it’s on a master calendar, but were they apprised of not only the date, but the expectation? Are these flimsy plans, or plans that they may not have had much control over (family weddings, international vacations planned years ago…) Are these plans negotiable at all (if someone has sporting event tickets, they can still attend part of the event, right?)

      And if the answers to all of these are still “there was truly no excuse”……do they hate attending this event and all made plans in protest? I mean…if the only reason you make everyone give up a weekend is because “tradition and optics” well, I uh. Kinda sympathize with them. If this event has not been a great use of their time in the past, you may need to do some marketing within your team to express WHY it’s valuable to go (and if it’s not in fact actually valuable…well, you can decide to toe the party line or you can see what you can do to change norms). No offense, but I’m not seeing anywhere how it benefits THEM to go or how it benefits THE COMPANY for them to go, only how it reflects badly on YOU if they don’t. This is not compelling reasoning for most employees to forfeit a weekend.

      I think what you say is going to have a lot to do with the above–was it really and truly clear, or is it possible that they could have simply made a mistake? But it also has a lot to do with what teeth you actually have to force this issue, and whether you (and your superiors) actually want to make this a major hill to fight up and over. If the reality is that you can’t make anyone go, and no one is going to be penalized in any way, your best bet may be to reiterate that this is an expectation, it looks very bad to superiors for most of the department to miss it, sure, but it reflects poorly personally *on them* and *yes you have noticed* and *yes this will be taken into consideration moving forward on things like performance evaluations and etc*. Then put it on them to make the decision to rearrange plans to attend or come for part of the event or skip entirely (and obviously make exceptions if people had, like, plans to go to their kid’s wedding vs planned a weekend away that could happen anytime).

  53. Is it Friday yet?*

    Happy Friday! This might be more for those in the non profit world, but not sure.

    An office working group (including myself) is going to propose to senior leadership some kind of staff representative or staff omnsbudman position. We (and also a bunch of other similar non profits) are having staff retention issues partially as a result of no transparency in office/ work decisions and policies. RTO is a good example, where decisions for who was approved to stay remote was arbitrary and perceived as unfair.

    So our idea is to suggest a staff voice or something similar. But I don’t know anyone at an organization that has this – do you? If yes, how does it work? And is it working? Thanks!

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      Are you proposing a completely new hire for this, or something that one of the existing staff will take on?

    2. BellaStella*

      We have an SRG if employees of all levels and an HR rep. It is useful for some stuff like bringing up issues with policies and such but they have little power to change things. The mandate needs to be clear and ours is elected every two years.

  54. Party Pooper*

    My organization loves celebrating employees, and for people’s big milestone anniversaries (20 years, 25, 30, etc.) we offer luncheons/parties, but only if the employee wants to. This month we had 2 big ones (20 and 30 years, respectively). The 30 year employee is high-up in the org, and she was quite insistent to me (Exec Assist) and my boss (the President) that she didn’t want a luncheon or party, so we got her a beautiful bouquet and crystal plaque, and presented them to her privately, to honor her wishes of “no big deal” which she was very happy with. She doesn’t like to be the center of attention, which we respect. (The 20 year employee did as for a luncheon, which we did).

    Flash forward to this morning, and I see our facilities guy hauling in tables, and another employee bringing in a cake, and I found out that this other employee (who I will call Party Planner) planned a “secret luncheon/party” for the 30 year employee, and didn’t tell me or my boss or invite us. The 30 year employee wasn’t told, either (it being a secret and all). If we had been told in advance, we would have squashed it, because it’s against her wishes. Everything came to light too late, and the 30 year employee is handling it well, but in the meantime, neither my boss or I can attend because we have an off-site lunch meeting and site visit that was booked days ago. We can’t cancel at this point.

    I am really, really annoyed and hurt by the Party Planner, who I believe did this with the best of intentions thinking, perhaps, that we overlooked having a luncheon for the employee. In that case, Party Planner should have come to us and we could have explained why no luncheon was hosted. But she just made assumptions, planned an unwanted party, and didn’t communicate with us at all. 30 year employee came down to tell us that “apparently I’m having a luncheon today? will you both be there, at least?” and was visibly let down to find out her boss and I (two people she would consider as in her “inner circle”) will not be attending, because we were not told or invited.

    I just needed to vent about this. We’ll be having a conversation with the Party Planner next week about why this was inappropriate.

    1. Pay no attention...*

      Myself, I wouldn’t actually give Party Planner the benefit of thinking they had the best of intentions. PP wanted cake and party for herself and she didn’t get what she wanted so she secretly planned one around you on a day she knew you’d be out…maliciously. This is all about her ego, and not 30-year. I would have told 30-year that she’s entitled to skip the party if she so chooses and you will back her up — it wasn’t too late to put a stop to it if they were only setting up tables, you just squash it right then and go to your appointment.

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed. It’s pretty egregious they did this without cluing in the two most relevant people ( you and boss). WTF?

      2. Nicosloanica*

        Eh, this is attributing to malice what is just as likely to be well-intentioned incompetence. I’d probably talk to Planner now though or you’ll be reliving this in six months. Lots of people truly believe you have to “push” people past shyness or that they are the saviors of the downtrodden or whatever.

        2. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

          If Party Planner was guilty of only “well-intentioned incompetence,” then why didn’t she invite OP and the boss to the party?

          1. fhqwhgads*

            Yeah, the not telling the two people closest to the celebratee strongly suggests Party Planner knew something in some way about this being unwanted.

    2. ferrina*

      Ugh, this is so frustrating!

      That said, I can see why Party Planner did this. Your optics weren’t great- publicly celebrating one employee but not another. You knew that you did things for both employees, but it sounds like a fair amount of the organization had no idea. They only saw you celebrating one person.

      You need a better policy around the comms on this. Maybe an email announcement celebrating each person and stating that they get to choose their options, or just something to show the other employees that you arent’ just skippign the 30-year employee

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      I wouldn’t come down too hard on them. To Party Planner and the other employees it may have looked like one person was celebrated and another wasn’t, so they just wanted to have a little celebration of their own.

      Is there a way you can communicate differently to the team next time this comes up?

      1. WellRed*

        But why wouldn’t party planner ask the executive assistant about this before jumping to conclusions. Especially if it’s known that it’s up to the employee? Though I do agree communication could be better.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          He should have talked to EA or boss for sure. I can also imagine he was trying to do something fun/kind but didn’t think it through

        2. Party Pooper*

          I do want to note, we did send a blast out about the 2 employees. The 20 year employee got a giant write-up about her tenure here, and the 30 year employee got a short write-up, which included, “[Employee] isn’t one for the spotlight, but [short announcement about her 30th year and how valuable she is]” that the 30 year employee approved of being sent out. At the 20 year employee’s luncheon, 30 year employee was seated at a table that included Party Planner and spoke about how she opted out of the party because she didn’t want the spotlight. I didn’t feel like I needed to make an announcement that 30 year didn’t want a party because she doesn’t like attention, because it’s just… calling attention to her? If that makes sense? Anyway, I just wanted to add that bit about communication.

          1. ferrina*

            That’s important context!

            In the future, I’d make sure that there was a standard length. It’s not about “calling attention” to the celebrants- it’s about sending a clear message to the rest of the staff about the value of the celebrants. They won’t read between the lines about being “not one for the spotlight”.

            But the bit about Party Planner knowing the 30-year didn’t want a party is not okay. The Planner knew and didn’t care (though I bet they’ll claim that they had no idea the 30-year didnt’ want a party). I think you can make a blanket statement that there are not to be surprise parties at the office. And for fun, might want to mention this to HR. Not as a complaint, but as a “huh, here’s an interesting thing that happened” so they have it on their radar (sidenote- always make friends with your local HR person so you can casually drop info like this as needed). I suspect this person may have a bit of a track record, either of not great judgement or outright instigating.

            1. Party Pooper*

              No need for me to tell HR because, (wait for it) 30 year employee is the Director of HR. Party Planner is not in her department but did rope in the most junior of the 30 year employee’s staff to assist with this.

              Overall I am mortified by Party Planner’s judgment. I don’t think there was any malice, but I can’t decide if it being malice or poor judgement is worse.

              1. ferrina*

                omg! The irony and audacity!
                The more details you share, the more I’m annoyed by Party Planner. Was Party Planner at least somewhat close to the 30-year employee? Did Party Planner pay for this out of pocket, or did they use company budget?

                Not that any of that matters. I’m just trying to think of ways that Party Planner could make it worse.

          2. Nicosloanica*

            Even then, I’m guessing Planner thought this looked “shabby” to 30 years and would probably still have thought so even if told this is what they wanted.

        3. ferrina*

          Is it known that it’s up to the employee? I didn’t see anything about that in the first post. This is also the kind of internal process that’s often assumed to be known by the coordinator, but in reality is only known if you’ve been on the receiving end.

          Without knowing anything else about the Party Planner, I’d assume good intentions. They might not have realized that this is part of Party Pooper’s job, or assumed that 30-year employee was forgotten about and they saw an easy way to make up for it. Though if Party Planner is known to create drama, it’s possible there was more there.

            1. ferrina*

              It’s known to the potential recipient, but what about to the rest of the staff? If I’ve only been with the company for 3 years, have I learned that the recipient is consulted for their celebration, or do I just see that some people have celebrations and some don’t?

              This is the kind of thing that I’ve seen company leaders assume that “everyone knows”, when in reality only the person planning and the recipients know because they are the only ones who have needed to know. The communication for the recipient is great, but the optics still end up being bad because the newer staff/folks that don’t remember their anniversary don’t realize that this is customized with the recipient.

          2. Party Pooper*

            Yes, I would say it’s known. Our org isn’t massive (about 70 of us) and every celebration (birthdays, anniversaries, other personal milestones like baby showers) are opt-in. As a group we’re (this incident not withstanding) respectful of each other’s preferences- there are a handful of folks who don’t do birthdays and such, or don’t want to participate in company activities, and it is always respected. This is so wildly out of sync with the culture of our office I’m just… baffled. Party Planner herself has been here longer than me (10+ years) and knows all this. And all party approval things go through me, and we have another employee who assists with planning, and both of us were bypassed.

            1. allathian*

              Party Planner needs a come-to-Jesus talk from someone above her in the organization, preferably her manager. She sat next to the person who didn’t want to celebrate their anniversary and heard her say outright that she didn’t want a party, and decided to bypass the people who usually approve parties and assist with planning. I hope she at least paid for the party out of her own pocket.

              Some people are so convinced of their own way being the only right way that they completely ingnore it when other people’s stated preferences don’t match their own. How did the 30th anniversary person react to the suprise party? I hope you’ve apologized to her for how things went down.

              Party Planner should be warned that other people’s preferences re celebrations must be respected and that if she organizes a party for someone who’s stated that they don’t want one, there will be consequences, but that’s up to her manager.

  55. Our Business Is Rejoicing*

    Just wanted to pop in with some good news. Two years ago today, I had my final interview for the position I now have and love (and used Alison’s advice on what questions to ask during the interview!). Today, I got promoted!

    This position was a considerable pivot for me from the work I used to do previously. I’d been let go just as I was starting to realize I was a bit burnt out and wanted to be doing another type of work. I took a pay cut to take the job (although not a massive one, when you consider the benefits package was better), and between the promotion (which came with a big raise) and a considerably-more-than-inflation raise I got earlier in the year, I’m back up to a similar salary as my old job.

  56. Clueless*

    Hello everyone, does anyone have a recommendation for a comfortable pair of shoes that can be worn at a 2-day conference? Would love to hear ideas with links if possible – thanks in advance!

    1. I edit everything*

      I have a pair of black Hoka Solimar (women’s) shoes that I love. Unlike many other Hoka styles, these are pretty low profile and don’t have the super chunky soles. If you’re planning to wear slacks, they will go unremarked upon, unless you’re in a very formal industry.

    2. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      If you wear women’s shoes, I really like the LifeStride flats, especially the I-Loyal Flat (LifeStride.com). I wear wide width shoes, and I’ve had a few pairs of these or very similar LifeStride shoes in my work wardrobe for a few years now. If you wear men’s shoes, my husband’s go to are Sketchers work shoes, like the Nampa-Groton SR (Sketchers.com). I also try to keep in my bag some Moleskin Padding or blister prevention tape (available at most drug stores), because even the most comfortable shoes can get uncomfortable after a full day of running around a conference.

      1. WestsideStory*

        Pro tip: bring a second pair and switch them mid-day.
        A colleague also gave me this other trick, for those conferences where she literally had to navigate meetings inevitably at either ends of the vast exhibit hall, in heels. She bought pumps a generous 1 size too big and stuffed two padded insoles into them. This one takes practice but it worked for her

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        Life strides were my go-to when I was a trainer where the dress code meant no sneakers.

        Dr. Scholl also has some nice, comfortable men’s shoes. (Very similar to Sketchers, actually.)

    3. Maryn*

      Assuming you’re going to be standing a lot, a somewhat dressy flat is the way to go. While a low heel is great for the office, a day when I’m on my feet more than usual kills either my knees or the balls of my feet–although if you want a low heel, check out Rockport Cobb Hill. They were my “nice” shoes for a long, long time.

      To wear with slacks:
      I love Dansko’s Frannie. I have black and navy. https://www.zappos.com/p/womens-dansko-franny-black-milled-nappa/product/8905024/color/699787 I bought the black ones years ago and they still look great, too. (Which explains why I added the navy ones.)

      To wear with a skirt or dress:
      Rockport Cobb Hill Petra, a Mary Jane that’s slippers-comfortable. https://www.zappos.com/p/womens-cobb-hill-petra-black/product/8565272/color/3

      Clark’s Ashland Spin Q, which is also okay with pants, especially with socks that match either the shoe or the pants. (Great for travel.) https://www.zappos.com/p/womens-clarks-ashland-spin-q-black/product/8717159/color/3 It’s not as well made as the Petra, but it costs half as much.

    4. WellRed*

      Wear different shoes both days and bring a third pair for after hours. Trust me on this. These days I stick with sneakers and comfortable sandals.

    5. Hillary*

      Bring two pairs if you can – even just wearing different shoes the second day helps enormously.

      If it’s casual or smart casual, fun/bright sneakers are great. It’s amazing what you can get away with if your shoes look new and intentional. My last big conference I wore a pair of black birkenstock sneakers one day and white/neon green nikes the next. Clarks boots/booties are my go-to for long days on my feet.

      If you live somewhere with a “comfort shoe” shoe store, IMO it’s well worth paying full price to get fitted and try multiple options.

      1. Clueless*

        Thank you! I’ll look into getting fitted, but not sure if I’ll be able to squeeze it in before my trip.

    7. HRChickie*

      Dr. Scholl’s ballet flats used to be awesome and now I feel like they’re hit or miss? I have some pairs I can wear all day and others that would give me blisters at a conference.

      But I’m obsessed with Rothy’s. I have two pairs of The Point and one pair of loafers, and at least in my experience I can put them on right out of the box and never have to worry about blisters, etc. Plus you can throw them in the wash!

    8. Picky Feet*

      I wear Ecco’s Felicia shoe all day, every day. It’s better looking than the pics on their website (where they have inexplicably listed it as a “dress” shoe). I even wear them to court. They aren’t cheap but they last a long time. I have Achilles tendon issues and literally cannot wear most shoes; these are comfortable! Lots of stores online carry them and Ecco also has stores in some places if you (like me) need to try things on.

  57. Jaya*

    So. It’s been four and a half months. I’m still job hunting. And I’m on the verge of giving up even though giving up isn’t an option because I need an income. Retail has rejected me. Jobs in my field have rejected me. The rest are ghosts.
    The business owner ghosted me. And it wasn’t just once. She said three times in a row she would call on a certain day, and didn’t. Her last text was Monday at five AM. I’ve given up on her. While I’d be great at the job, I can’t trust her to be reliable.
    The other in-person position has sent nothing. It’s the end of the month, and I interviewed a month ago. I’m just waiting on the advice of people here who said don’t follow-up and they’ll reach out if I’m a top candidate. But I am tempted to send something because this new norm of everyone ghosting feels rude and inconsiderate.
    I don’t know how to plan out October. It feels like I’ve done all the right things and nothing has worked. Any insight would be great.

    1. Lady Lessa*

      Have you signed up with multiple temp agencies? If so, then I am sorry that you are having a hard time.

      If not, that might help you get something, even if it is temporary and/or out of your field. I talked one into sending me to a warehouse job, just to bring money in.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Co-signing on the temp agencies. I was able to survive several months without permanent employment thanks to temping, and the last temp position I had didn’t become permanent, but it did lead to me finding a related permanent job with the organization that has since become a career. It was in a field I’d never considered because I didn’t really know it existed, but which is a great fit for my skills and interests.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Yeah … to be completely honest, when I was looking at retail they were not very selective and just wanted someone to start as soon as possible, ideally same day. Can you explore what happened there? It’s totally okay to be picky but I would be confused if someone wasn’t hearing anything after 5-10 grocery / restaurant apps right now unless they were being very picky about what shift schedule they would take or something?

          1. Jaya*

            One just said no based on my resume; the other refused after a personality test. Waiting on a few more. But considering looking around for places with paper signs on their doors and asking for further details.

    3. ferrina*

      I’m sorry. Unfortunately, that can be how it goes in job hunting, especially in a tough economy.

      The thing is- job hunting requires luck. And you have no control over that. You can have the best materials in the world, and the company won’t move forward with you because they already picked a candidate/froze budget/didn’t do a good job writing the job description/spilled coffee on your resume and never looked at it/have unrealistic expectations/etc.

      By all means, definitely look at your resume, cover letter and interview skills. But you will also need luck. And that is something that you have no control over. I’m so sorry, and I hope the tide of luck turns in your favor soon!

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Seconding this post! A few other things to keep in mind:

        * As a general rule of thumb, if you are getting phone screens and interviews but not offers, look at brushing up your interviewing skills first. If you aren’t getting phone screens and interviews, the look at brushing up your cover letter and resume first.

        * Ghosting is rude and inconsiderate. It is also, unfortunately, very normal in hiring.

        * Hiring often takes a long time. Longer than the candidates want it to, for sure, and also often than the hiring managers want it to. Sometimes, what looks like ghosting to the candidate is a budget freeze/the hiring manager waiting to hear back from their 1st choice candidate before they communicate with the 2nd choice candidate/the hiring manager got pulled into a high priority project and doesn’t have time to work on hiring for the next 3 weeks/etc.

        Keep at it, and like ferrina I hope luck breaks in your favor soon!

        1. Jaya*

          Thanks Hlao-roo, I def am brushing up. And hoping to figure out another plan since what I’m currently doing isn’t working.

      2. Jaya*

        Thanks, Ferrina. I would like luck to turn in the other direction and hoping it does next month. Also I will brush up on my interviewing skills.

    4. ctrl-alt-delicious*

      I’m sorry, that’s super frustrating and I don’t have much advice. I will say, if it’s been a month since you interviewed for the one, I think it’s entirely reasonable to reach out to them. (It’s quite possible they’ll still ghost you, but following up after four weeks is certainly not going to hurt anything, the issue is if you’re reaching out again and again and again and being a nuisance)

      1. Jaya*

        I’m considering sending an email. They closed the listing on their site and LinkedIn, meaning it’s possible either they hired someone or the position got closed for budget reasons since no one else on LinkedIn working for the company has that title.

    5. ItJustTakesOne*

      4.5 months isn’t that long, and that includes considering both fulltime and contract employment. I’ve had lots of job searches go a lot longer (my longest was 19 months between my 9/11 layoff and a 3.5 month contract, but I’ve had several 10-11 month searches). Unless I got lucky or the market was truly hopping I almost always went at least 3-4 months between engagements (looking at both types of work).

      The thing is to remember you just need one job. You can have 100 options not work out and hit the jackpot on 101.

      Good luck!

  58. Twiddling my thumbs*

    I am sitting at my desk feeling deep anxiety because my grandboss is marking up a 12-page brochure/booklet I’ve been working on for weeks and is ridiculously behind schedule. Why is it behind schedule? Because the last time my grandboss looked at it, she demanded all kinds of unnecessary changes, many of which later had to be undone. It was *fine* before. It’s *fine* now. I’m really happy with it, in fact, and my direct boss is really happy with it, but grandboss has to put in her two hundred cents.
    Getting this thing done was my first goal of my new job. I know I won’t be blamed for the delays. I have been as proactive as possible. I’m just so annoyed!
    OK–rant over.

    1. ferrina*

      This is so normal. I have created many, many documents for high up people. High up people need to feel like they contributed in some way. They need to have a change, or else they feel awkward. It’s not a reflection on you at all. The more nitpicky they get, the better you did- they’re just picking on small stuff because you did amazing with the big stuff. Just roll with it and know that you are doing just fine, and this is totally normal!

      1. Ama*

        My favorite higher up correction on a document I made was the time I was producing a newsmagazine for a graduate program and I was showing our major donor (she was at the time funding the program’s entire budget) how it was coming along. She looked over my shoulder and said “can you make that photo less blue?”

        It was a photo taken underwater in the Mediterranean. Sometimes all you can do is smile politely and say “let me see what I can do.” (I did not make it less blue.)

    2. I edit everything*

      It was a blood bath, and she made edits without knowing important things about the program the brochure is about. According to others in the office, she has *never* done this before and usually doesn’t care, but she has a new boss who is difficult, so she’s feeling on edge.
      I was so angry when her edits came back–they introduced errors and suggested big changes to sections she hadn’t touched the time before–I had to go take a walk.

      1. Boof*

        Is there any way to like, go over it real time in person with you or your boss + the grandboss? Maybe they can be walked back from some of this!

      2. Ama*

        Will she actually notice if you just don’t make the edits that introduce errors without telling her? I had a boss that used to introduce grammatical errors to my documents all the time because she’d been an English teacher and thought she knew best but somehow she kept introducing different verb tenses into the same sentence. It used to stress me out until one time when I was on a really tight deadline to get the document to the printer I just ignored the incorrect edits and only put in edits that wouldn’t ruin the document without going back to her to argue and she never noticed. So from then on I would thank her for her edits and pick out the ones I could live with.

        I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  59. Time to Write*

    Does anyone have experience with short-form blogs and how they integrate with LinkedIn? I dislike seeing long LinkedIn posts, so I’m thinking a mini-blog is cleaner when content is 1-2 paragraphs. People seem really interested in my thoughts and experiences so this may reduce me having to repeat the same conversations over and over at networking events (or at least make it more conversational rather than people asking me to monologue!).

    I’m not techie at all and trying to figure out whats easy to set up but still looks professional. I know WordPress seems to be the default blog site, but I’m starting to hear about something called SubStack.

    1. Emerging lurker*

      I work in marketing and have a lot of experience with blog writing for both businesses and individual professionals. If your goal is to start writing longer content and primarily share it on LinkedIn, the easiest route is to use the LinkedIn Articles feature. You basically publish the article on LinkedIn and then share the link to it with a short post to your profile. No need to build a blog on a separate website. Here’s how it works: https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a522427

      You can also turn your LinkedIn articles into a LinkedIn newsletter; people who subscribe will get alerts whenever you publish a new LinkedIn article. Here’s how that works: https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a522525

  60. Elizabeth West*

    Y’all, what does “preliminary check” mean when someone is checking references?

    After two interviews for a job very similar to the one from which I was laid off, I was asked for references. One of mine said they were called and the HR person said this was a “preliminary check.” Since then, I haven’t heard anything, but I figured they would take time this week to go through that part of the process, with me and/or any other candidates. But I’ve never heard it phrased quite that way before. What do you think?

    I’m trying not to think about it and am still applying, btw.

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Hmm, I’m interpreting this one as a way to set expectations to your references. It reads to me as a polite indicator to your references to imply that they’re still making decisions on the hiring process so that they don’t go around spreading misinformation to you about how you got the job.

      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        (That is to say, that they’re running references is a sign that they’re still considering you. But some companies run references after hiring and decisions are made and some do it before.)

  61. Oct 7*

    Jews, Israelis, and anyone impacted by Oct 7, 2023: How are you preparing for the upcoming anniversary? Like many, I am feeling so many conflicting emotions. I have a (remote) team meeting that morning and I am worried I will not be able to focus or, even worse, that I will for some reason get emotional during the call.
    I plan to wear a yellow ribbon pin (although I hope against hope it will be unnecessary by that time). How are you guys coping, and how are you preparing?
    Best wishes to all for good news soon.

    1. Anon Attorney*

      I feel you and this is a meaningful question. I am having many conflicting emotions. If you have the PTO available, maybe take the day.

      1. Oct 7*

        Thanks for your reply – unfortunately I don’t have the PTO – but maybe I can shift my workload to be a little lighter that day.

  62. Rainy*

    I’ve been at my new job for about a month and it’s absolutely fantastic. I feel valued and respected, my coworkers are delightful, the institution is smaller and the vibe is very kind and humane, I love our new town and state, our house is awesome, and I am so happy!

    This week, I got a text from my old boss accusing me of deleting handover documents from the shared drive I created before I left. Old boss has not spoken a word to me since before my last day in the office, so receiving an unhinged accusation two months later was a bit of a shock. Not only have I not accessed that drive since I left (I’m not sure I even could at this point?), it’s been long enough and so much has happened in the meantime that I don’t remember what handover documents I left, although I remember getting very little guidance and just doing my best. When I responded that I had no idea what old boss was talking about, old boss said that it hadn’t sounded like me, and that they hoped I was doing well and enjoying my new state. So old boss took someone’s word for it that I had gone in and deleted files, did not check, and leapt straight to accusing me?

    But sure, ask me again what could possibly have driven me to look for a new job… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      If you still have access to their shared drive, that’s a massive security failure. You’re not an employee anymore! You should not have any access to their environments.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        By which I mean – if you had deleted their stuff, that’s ON THEM because they left it where you could get at it.

        1. Rainy*

          Yeah, old boss said they were going to “talk to IT and figure out what happened” and I was like “great, they’ll figure it out.” I can’t decide if old boss thought they were threatening me with an access log–somehow no one there seems to have realized that when they stopped paying me, I stopped caring what they think.

  63. Rincewind*

    suggestions for work celebration foods that are respectful of dietary restrictions? my company’s Pride group keeps defaulting to cookies and ice cream because it’s cheap and “who doesn’t love ice cream?!”
    Well, me?…I can’t eat gluten or dairy, so both cookies and ice cream are out. The last time, I requested a dairy-free option and ended up licking a lemon popsicle while everyone else loaded up at the sundae bar.
    Pizza is similarly out.
    Are there easy group food ideas that are vegetarian, dairy-free, and gluten-free? or am I just doomed to nibbling on the snacks I bring in my pockets?

    1. Ali + Nino*

      Honestly I’m kind of surprised they don’t have a fruit/veggie spread there be default? That seems pretty “agnostic” so to speak.

      1. Meep*

        Is it bad that I always add these to any events, because I prefer fruits and veggies? My office tends to eat pretty healthy in general with a sweet treat on the side, but I am a grazer so it is nicer to graze on.

        1. WellRed*

          This is what I often bring so I know there’s something I can eat but if it’s a limited budget quick treat, they probably want to any to limit offerings? They just need to find a way to include everyone within their parameters.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      Suggest a specific dairy-free option?
      If they tried to accommodate you, you’re partway there.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        If you like Oreo cookies, they are vegan (so, dairy-free)! There are also gluten-free Oreo options, and those are vegan as well, so they check all three boxes: vegetarian, dairy-free, gluten-free. Just a suggestion of a specific dairy-free option that’s as easy to by/transport/store as the current (gluten) cookies and ice cream.

    3. WellRed*

      What would be suitable to you in this situation? Try naming that and see if you have better luck. I love me a veggie platter but it’s not fun like a sundae bar. The company pride group does need to do better, though. Chips, salsa and guacamole?

    4. Cordelia*

      you can get vegan and gluten-free pizza, cookies, ice cream, why can’t you just ask for these? You might need to provide some specific examples of brands, sounds like they tried with the popsicle but not very hard. I’m vegan and so long as people know beforehand, I never have to go without at work events nowadays as there are so many easily available options

    5. Hyaline*

      I’ve been increasingly impressed with the gluten-free options for baked goods at plenty of mainstream stores–if they want to do cupcakes or muffins, it’s not hard to get gluten free ones!

      Also popcorn will always make me happy.

    6. Can't Sit Still*

      We always have sorbets (yes, plural) when we have ice cream socials. I also always make sure there’s at least a fruit & veggie tray available when we’re having something “cheap & easy.”

      Maybe a fruit bouquet as an additional option, not a replacement? They can be really beautiful!

    7. tangerine dreams*

      1- ask for what you want
      2- ask for dairy-free fruit sorbets
      3- do a chocolate bar spread. Something like Lindt does various % chocolate, with no dairy until 65% or 50%
      4- chips and salsas (doesn’t anyone like salty?)
      5- fruit platters

    8. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      as others have said can you specifically ask them for what you would like to see. certified gluten cookies? Sorbet or dairy free ice cream? OR something else? It might be they don’t have the bandwith to think about what other options they could give so they default to what they know works. Give them specific items.

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      A taco bar can work for almost everyone. Have corn and flour tortillas, corn chips, meats, beans (vegetarian), rice (also should be made vegetarian), cheese, lettuce, olives, cabbage, onion, lime, cilantro, salsa, sour cream, guacamole, radish, pickled carrots, sweet onion – and then people can make their own. They can easily be vegetarian, dairy-free, and gluten-free, or not, as people choose.

      It’s not as quick and easy as ice cream and cookies, but it’s a good idea when lunch options are wanted.

  64. Rage*

    Anybody with major Excel skills here?

    I’m no novice, but I have been beating my head against this spreadsheet for weeks now.

    Basically, I’m using a VLOOKUP. I’ve done these before, dozens of times, and they have always worked just fine. However, it’s been a few years. After a continuous repeat of the dreaded “N/A” error, I started some Googling and thought I might try XLOOKUP instead.

    Nope, no dice.

    The thing is, I can get it to work *in the same worksheet* but not if I’m having it pull data from a different worksheet (within the same spreadsheet). I finally broke down and asked our Data Analyst (who is as much better at Excel than I am, as I am better at Excel than the rest of my coworkers LOL). I sent her the file, she played around with it for bit, and sent it back with a new column of formulas doing what I was attempting to do with V/XLOOKUP, but using the INDEX & MATCH formulas instead.

    After studying it for a while, I managed to suss out what it was doing, and decided to see if I could replicate it with a different column of data (basically: instead of pulling from the “completed date” column, I was going to have it pull from the “Last Name” column). OK, I was able to edit the formula to change the column.

    But then I naively assumed I could move the formula to the correct column in where I needed this data to actually display. Reader, it did not work and I am about to have a piece of my desk break off due to repeated banging of my forehead. (Yes, I made sure that the cell reference were updated correctly.) Surely my cognitive function hasn’t declined THAT much. I know I must be missing *something* but I don’t know what. (And I still have no clue why the V/XLOOKUP wouldn’t work across worksheets either.)

    Anybody have experience with INDEX or MATCH who could possibly shed some light on this? Or know some weirdness with Excel versions from Office 365 that borks formulas? Because I have reached the end of my ideas.

    1. CanadianJessie*

      I was having a bit of confusion about this too when I 1st started using it (confusing the documents) and wrote this out as a reminder for myself – maybe this might be helpful. (I also included an actual example, from the reports I use).

      INDEX / MATCH
      =INDEX( Column where the result you’re looking for is – data you want to pull over from reference doc
      , MATCH ( Specific cell in current doc that shows the number you’re trying to match
      , column where the number you’re trying to match would be in reference doc
      , 0 to indicate exact match
      ))

      =INDEX(‘AtoA Report’!$K$2:$K$4967,MATCH(‘In progress working’!A2,’AtoA Report’!$A$2:$A$4967,0))
      =INDEX(‘AtoA Withdrawn’!$I$2:$I$34,MATCH(‘In progress working’!A24,’AtoA Withdrawn’!$A$2:$A$34,0))

      1. Rage*

        From what I can see, my formula matches the syntax of your example:

        This is the formula that is currently working in the “test” column the Data Analyst made:
        =INDEX(TBTest!$D$2:$D$746,MATCH(‘Para Staff’!A2,TBTest!$A$2:$A$746,0))

        TBTest = Reference doc
        Para Staff = Display doc

        When I retype, or copy, or in any fashion move this formula to another cell, I get the “N/A”. Or at least it did. NOW IT’S WORKING wtf

        It must have *known* I was consulting with others and would soon uncover its devious attempts to thwart me.

        I think I’m going to come down with a case of Excel-u-lie-tis.

        Thanks for the explanation – I’m saving this for future generations (or least for whomever has to deal with this spreadsheet after I pass away from Excel-u-lie-tis LOL).

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Perhaps the earlier attempt didn’t have all the addresses absolute? I notice the first parameter in the MATCH formula is just A2, not $A2, so a copy/paste could have changed that.

          I like to name ranges; it generally reduces that sort of problem.

          1. Rage*

            It didn’t necessarily need to be absolute – if I could get it to work in a single cell, then I would add the $ so I could replicate it down the column.

            Anyway, I’m still fiddling with it.

    2. Yes And*

      INDEX/MATCH is my very favorite formula combination. I almost never use VLOOKUP anymore – there are use cases where INDEX/MATCH works and VLOOKUP doesn’t, but almost none vice versa.

      If you’re sure the cell references updated correctly (are you using dollar signs to fix the references as you move the formula around?), the only other thing I can think of is: Is the place you want the data to appear in the same column as the data you’re searching? If so, are you selecting the specific array you want to search, or the whole column? You might be getting a circular reference error.

      Next, are you typing in your references, or clicking on them? It’s very easy to make a syntax error when typing in references, especially across sheets. Try clicking on the array you want to reference instead.

      It’s hard to say more without looking at the actual spreadsheet in question, but that’s where I’d start.

      1. Rage*

        Both typing and clicking. My first attempt was typing; after several failures, I gave clicking a try. It only worked correctly for me when everything was in the same worksheet, and the formulas looked the same as when I was typing them (I took screenshots to compare).

        There are dollar signs in the formula, and the place I want to display the data is NOT the same as the column that I am searching.

        1. Yes And*

          Oh, one other thing: the syntax for VLOOKUP and MATCH is reversed, and that tripped me up a lot when I was making the switch from one to the other. VLOOKUP([array],[search term]…), but MATCH([search term],[array]…)

          That probably wouldn’t explain the error you’re describing, but I’m really shooting in the dark here.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      Two suggestions.

      1. Excel can be very, very picky about data types. Check to make sure that your target column is actually values, rather than itself being the result of a formula.

      2. Check for rogue spaces at the beginning and end of your data.

  65. Great Beyond*

    I work in a toxic environment and am desperately trying to get out. Until then, I have to deal with a manager who either ignores me and/or likes to push my buttons and blame everything on me. Yesterday he was telling me how some data wasn’t uploaded in the database and supposedly the interns are blaming me. (It’s an IT issue/the higher-ups are working on it. I communicated this to the interns.) Manager said that he talked to their boss about it and said that I wasn’t the one to blame, but who knows if this really happened or if Manager is just trying to make himself look good. Manager likes to create drama.

    I’m trying to gray rock and document as much as I can, but it’s tough and still is frustrating. Big boss loves the managers, so going to Big boss is not an option. Any words of wisdom or advice is greatly appreciated.

  66. Spacedog*

    Ok this may be a totally lame thing to be bothered about, but I’ve noticed that a contact of mine on LinkedIn ALWAYS responds to me with my name. The messaging is between the two of us, so it isn’t like he needs to distinguish between other people in the message.

    I might send him a casual checking in message, or ask about his projects, or whatever…the response always starts with “Yes, Spacedog…..” or some other response that totally includes my name in the response.

    It’s odd. He knows who I am (I worked for him ten years ago, we’ve both reco’d each other on LI) so it isn’t that he doesn’t know me. I’m not checking in all the time, it may have been months since we last connected.

    The whole tone comes across as just weird. Vaguely hostile and paternalistic, like he’s addressing a small child in each exasperated response he sends to even benign check-ins.

    Am I overreacting? Or is this a thing? It’s so hard to read people these days, but when they have a consistently odd response, it’s hard not to wonder.

    1. Cedrus Libani*

      But you see, Spacedog, this guy has read “How to Win Friends and Influence People” – or at least the executive summary – so he knows that everyone loves the sound of their own name. You can make people feel valued by using their name every chance you get. Isn’t it effective, Spacedog?

      1. Spacedog*

        Haha, no, it feels like I’m talking to a multilevel marketing sales person who is constantly parroting my name

        I think some of that Dale Carnegie advice can be taken in small doses.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      It sounds formal, but I don’t read hostile or paternalistic just from that. Maybe he’s hinting that your casual checking in tone is too casual for his taste — he doesn’t feel you have that level relationship.

    3. ctrl-alt-delicious*

      It could also be a cultural thing? I’ve worked with offshore teams in Chennai who ALWAYS use peoples’ names in every third sentence at least. It took some getting used to!

  67. Lady Godiva*

    Not sure if I should be upset by this or not. My boss was promoted out of my department a year ago, leaving his position open. Myself and another woman I work with are the top two candidates to be his replacement (and probably the only candidates given the specifics needed for the job). However, my company informed us that the job, which will be EXACTLY THE SAME as when our boss did – literally no difference whatsoever – will now be a lower title and lower pay.
    Am I crazy to think it’s a little weird that given the new boss will almost certainly a women, doing exactly the same job as the man did, but with a lower title and less pay? I guess the company can make the job into whatever they want but it seems…suspicious.

    1. Yes And*

      While there are non-discriminatory reasons they might want to make this move (they realized that the position was overtitled/overpaid before but they had to wait till it was vacant to make a change; or they previously required a credential that they’re no longer requiring; or something like that), you can establish discrimination by showing discriminatory impact – you don’t need to show discriminatory intent. Especially if the company has a pattern of doing this.

      Something Alison suggests a lot that I love is approaching these conversations in the spirit of collaboratively providing useful information – once they’re made aware of the bad optics of this move and opening the company to liability, OF COURSE they’ll want to do the right thing. (Even if that’s not true, approaching them as if it were makes the outcome you want more likely.)

    2. Pay no attention...*

      I don’t know how long your boss was in the job, but I would guess that he was at the top of the pay band, so the next person coming in would reasonably start at a lower salary anyway — so there was room for increase down the road — but the lower title could feel shady if the job duties are really the same unless he had the higher title in error to begin with… like he was called Director, but his job duties matched an Assoc. Dir level.

      Something like this unfortunately happened in my department but there were reasons. Director retired, the next person (promoted from the team) was given an Assoc. Dir. instead… however, a good chunk of the money for a Director-level was siphoned off to help create a new position within the department.

    1. Pay no attention...*

      I always keep a can of soup, a package of plain crackers, and a few packets of instant oatmeal just in case. Those items are good for a meal in a pinch, but not so good I would snack on them otherwise. That’s my downfall… if it’s too good of a snack, it doesn’t survive long enough for helping “in a pinch”.

    2. JustaTech*

      My “emergency backup” lunch (which I need to refill) is either a can of soup or a Cup’o’noodle (included cup is important).
      When I was nursing and subject to random bouts of extreme hunger I would also have some kind of protein bar or granola bar (got to keep an eye on Kind bars or anything with a lot of nuts because when they go off it’s nasty).
      Currently I have some Trader Joe’s Almond Butter Cocoa bars, and I used to have a can of Pringles. Might get some goldfish next.

      What I should get is a bag of some kind of strongly flavored hard candy for when my mouth is bored but I’m not actually hungry, like Jolly Ranchers or something.

    3. University Job Seeker*

      I like OWYN shakes. Free of a lot of allergens. They taste a lot better cold though. Also tuna in packets.

    5. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Dinty Moore Compleats meals, nuke for one minute. Some of them are surprisingly good. In an emergency, it’s safe to eat them cold.

    6. PropJoe*

      My local grocery store stocks a 10 pack of snack-sized cashews and an 8 pack of snack-sized peanuts. They fit into my bottom desk drawer very nicely next to the coffee pods.

  69. Can't Sit Still*

    This week’s workplace comedy: I work in an industry where phishing of all kinds and industrial espionage are extremely common. We are constantly reminded not to click on links sent by unknown senders and receive test emails frequently.

    This week, we received an email with a link to an anonymous survey, referencing “your company.” It looked exactly like every test phish email I’ve ever received. I, and hundreds of others, marked it as spam. You see where this is going, right?

    You guessed it! Today, we got an official email, with the company header, explaining that it was a legitimate email that would be re-sent and to please respond. You get extra credit if you guessed that this survey is about communication.

    Anyway, does anyone else have any stories of employees doing exactly what they’ve been trained to do, that nonetheless resulted in chaos?

    1. Bruce*

      We get regular “test” emails to check to see if we are careless enough to respond to phishing emails, so like you describe there are several times someone has sent a “legitimate” email and many of us have flagged it as suspicious. It is pretty funny…

    2. JustaTech*

      Back in 2020 the company decided to send out Amazon cards in lieu of having a holiday party (since, you know, COVID). But they didn’t tell everyone that they were doing this, so when we all got the email from the gift card company (that looked very sketchy) about half of the people deleted it, and the other half forwarded it to IT as “phishing”.

      So then we all got emails from, IT, HR and the CEO saying “no, it’s a real gift!”.

      Honestly I hope IT at least was sort of pleased that all their training had finally caught on after we’d had not one but two ransomware attacks caused by people clicking on links.

    3. Generic Name*

      Hilarious. Recently, one of our teaming partners newly joined a pursuit. They invited an AI bot to all meetings. For at least 2 meetings after the bot got invited, there was a discussion about what the bot was and how to remove it from the meeting. Then the bot dutifly sent an email with a “meeting summary” where it noted the conversation about how to remove the bot. I found the summary hilarious. One of my coworkers came back from vacation and saw all these emails from the bot and marked them all as suspicious phishing. Someone eventually got IT involved and removed the bots from the standing meetings (and presumably told the other company to stop doing that).

    4. Cedrus Libani*

      That’s happened at my company. We get simulated phishing emails once every few weeks, and if you click the suspicious link / PDF / etc, you have to take the phishing awareness course.

      So, of course, the company decided to standardize on Windows 10. Big job, so they hired an external contractor to help. As one of probably thousands of employees in the region whose company laptop was still on Windows 7, I got an email from some deeply suspicious external address, stating that I would be receiving a new computer, and all I had to do was click this link to sign up…

      Nobody was foolish enough to do that. Roll eyes, report, delete. Then the head of IT sent an email: sorry about that, we should have warned you, but it’s legit. They sent it again, and a few brave souls tried it, but not enough. Ultimately, the CEO had to get up at the quarterly all-hands meeting and provide a character reference: we hired these people, I swear. They’re going to send out another email right now, please don’t report it, just click the link.

    5. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      Not exactly employees, but close enough! At a previous company, our telephone calls were forwarded to an answering service when the receptionist left at the end of the day and were “unforwarded” the next business morning. During the timeframe that the calls were forwarded, employees at our company were unable to answer the calls. The telephone never rang.

      We also had an alarm service. When the first employee entered the office in the morning, he/she was supposed to turn off the alarm. Except that very few people knew how to turn off the alarm. I worked there for over nine years, and I was never told how to turn off the alarm. So, if you didn’t know how to turn off the alarm, you shouldn’t enter the office until someone else is there.

      It was arranged with the alarm service that if someone entered our office in the morning and failed to turn off the alarm, it was because it was possible that someone had broken in, and the alarm service was supposed to call our office and wait for the person who answered the phone to say the secret code word (“socks”) to let the alarm service know that all was well. Unfortunately, someone who enters the office without knowing how to turn off the alarm is not likely to unforward the phone calls from the answering service, so when the alarm service called our company, someone from the answering would answer the phone, and, of course, they had no idea that they were supposed to say “socks,” so the alarm service would call the police.

      This happened over and over again. I believe our company wound up having to pay hefty fines for making the police visit our office unnecessarily so many times.

      One time, an employee went to a concert near our office. The concert ended after midnight, and instead of going home, he decided to go to the office to sleep. The alarm service called, the answering service answered, and in addition to calling the police, the alarm service called the owner of our company. For some reason, the employee kept saying that he hadn’t done anything wrong.

    6. Synaptically Unique*

      Years ago we had a similar situation. I think it was related to tax documents. The horrible email had almost all the elements included in every online security training we’d ever been forced to complete (annually, no less). I ended up reaching out to one of the head IT folks and another member of leadership asking them to revisit the email. I sent the same email 3 years in a row before they finally changed everything.

    7. Nightengale*

      I have reported multiple legitimate e-mails as possible phishing. We had a survey one time claiming to be from our hospital president with an outside link. I mean, they could have read the textbook to “how to make your e-mail look like phishing” and not done a better job.

  70. temporarily anon*

    I’m trying to decide whether or not to take on a part-time job. Part-time jobs in my field are extremely, extremely hard to come by (data science), so I would likely be doing this job and my regular FT job simultaneously for awhile. PT job is 8-15 hours a week so this should be very doable.

    But the benefits/PTO accrual for the PT job seem SO bad it is making me reconsider the company entirely? Can I get someone’s read on this?
    “Sick leave is packaged in with PTO. For the first and second year of employment, Reg PT employees accrue .0334 hours, per hours worked…Reg PT employees scheduled to work 8-15 hours/week are eligible for 30 hours of paid parental leave and 180 hours of unpaid parental leave after being employed for at least 90 calendar days…Regular PT employees accrue differently, as noted previously above, with an accrual cap of 84 hours. The accrual rates raise the longer you are employed.”

    I guess I could take unpaid leave whenever my family wants to go on vacation, but between the benefits that seem bad (do they seem bad to you?) and the fact that somebody called me at 7:30 a.m. local time to offer this position both seem like red flags. at the same time, there are so so so few part-time jobs in this field but it seems silly to not take one. what would you do?

    1. temporarily anon*

      these comments wete written via voice text while breastfeeding, so please excuse any weirdness in punctuation, capitalization, etc!

    2. temporarily anon*

      one more thing I want to add—I’m leaning towards taking it since the worst I could do is quit and leave my old job. but I AM curious if these seem like red flags or not.

    3. WellRed*

      They don’t seem so bad to me but I’ve never held a professional part time job. And while it’s great to earn some PTO through it, it’s not like not accruing more of it will impede your ability to take time off. The 7:30 am call is a little weird but maybe that’s the best only time they have free. No matter when someone makes a call it’s always wrong for someone. If you have the desire and the bandwidth I’d take the job.

      1. temporarily anon*

        I asked for more money just because and the person who would be my manager texted me at 10 PM saying “do you want to talk tomorrow (Saturday) about how we came up with these numbers?” I know based on her email message that she is visiting some national parks this weekend and is on vacation. the company is definitely real but the whole thing seems weird

    4. Enough*

      Now I have nothing to compare it with. But the fact it is a part time job with any benefits seems pretty good to me. I would not have expected any kind of PTO.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes – our minimum to qualify for benefits is 0.6 FTE or 24 hours scheduled per week.

  71. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

    So … should I flag this for HR?

    A close friend of mine passed away – work comes into this because we work for the same company. HR arranged for a grief counselor to come in, which, yes, needed, thank you.

    I go to the group grief counseling session – not sure what to expect, but ready to go with the flow. Several other colleagues were there.

    It. Was. Strange.

    The grief counselor seemed to be weirdly nosy. One instance, a colleague mentioned they found the that the obituary the family put out was jarring, since the dead name was used. The grief counselor’s response was to *ask what my friend’s dead name was.* My colleague instantly shut them down by stating it wasn’t relevant. I think the other colleagues just stared at the counselor in absolute shock.

    Second instance, the counselor asked what was wrong with me, since “you look absolutely healthy, why do you have a mobility aid?” I was rather shocked – and I can’t remember what I babbled in response, but I’m pretty sure my needing a mobility aid has nothing to do with the tragic loss of my friend.

    Like – this was weird, right? This all feels terribly weird and not ok.

    1. JustaTech*

      What in the what?
      Both of those things are out of line, and the comment about your mobility aid is way, way, way out of line (not to mention completely off topic). (Good on your colleague for shutting down the deadname talk.)

      Very seriously, where did this “grief counselor” get their training/license/degree/accreditation? Do they even have any of those things, or is this a case where anyone can put out a sign and call themselves a “grief counselor”?

      Yes, please bring this up to HR. They need to know that they hired someone who isn’t helping and is probably making the situation worse.

      I’m really sorry about your friend.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        Agreed, that sounds very odd and if that person is actually licensed, a note to the licensing board would not be out of line. Both examples given are of very inappropriate and unprofessional behavior.

    2. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Wildly not ok. I supervise a bunch of counselors and I’d be having a chat with them in either instance.

      Definitely let HR know so they don’t use whatever service that was again!

    3. allathian*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      That grief counselor sounds incompetent, they were so wildly out of line. Please tell HR so they don’t use the same counselor again. Honestly, it sounds like you could benefit from another session with a compentent grief counselor.

    4. Cordelia*

      just here to say the same as the others – yes, very weird and very not ok. Report to HR so they don’t use the same person again, ask them to provide another session with a different counsellor, and also ask them to report this one to the person’s licensing board (if they turn out not to have one, that’s an issue in itself and HR need to be made aware of this)

      1. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

        Thank you everyone who replied.

        I reached out to HR (after they emailed me to let me know they set me up with five sessions with a different grief counselor), and they were horrified and apologetic.

        Each day I’m feeling a little better, though I still miss my friend something fierce. Im currently planning an arts & crafts project using materials they had given to me, as a way to always remember them. I know they would be delighted to be honored in such a way.

  72. JustaTech*

    Hey all,
    I wanted to thank you for your kind thoughts/suggestions about my VP suddenly deciding he wanted everyone at the office *after* school pick up time.

    My update is quite boring: everyone has just ignored the VP and so far nothing has come of it.

    Hopefully this is because someone pointed out things like 1) we have multiple garages, 2) people carpool/ride public transit, 3) there are better ways to measure productivity, 4) there are better ways to measure time-in-office, 5) if he actually tried to enforce it he would immediately lose more than half of his staff causing the entire department to stop functioning.

    It’s not great that we’re just ignoring the VP, but also, hey, it’s worked every other time, why not this time?
    (Yes, I know I need a new job.)

  73. Cheezmouser*

    Speaking of food restrictions at work, I have a health condition that limits what I can eat to something like the keto diet. This rules out most foods like sandwiches, pizza, burritos, pasta, etc.

    We have an upcoming department offsite where there will be catered breakfast and lunch (dinner on our own). The admin asked everyone about food allergies. I replied asking to see the menu, which the admin (understandably) was reluctant to share. She asked what foods I couldn’t eat, which I was reluctant to go into because the list is very long and depends on how the food is prepared (i.e. plain yogurt=yes, yogurt parfait with berries & granola=no). We went back and forth a bit until she finally let me know what the selections were.

    I felt bad because I wasn’t trying to be difficult, I just needed to know if I would be able to eat anything or if I should bring my own food (which in and of itself would draw attention from colleagues, which I would like to avoid). Is there a better way to handle this?

    1. WellRed*

      If she already had an existing menu, I think she was being very unhelpful. I will never understand event planners who are coy with what’s being served.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      Not sure how you worded it, but you might have to give more info when requesting the menu, “I have a very restricted medical diet that means it’s much easier to look at the menu and decide if I can eat anything on it, rather than give you the full list of what I can’t eat. If there is nothing on the menu I can eat, are substitutions possible?”

    3. Hyaline*

      OK, I kinda *don’t* get why it’s understandable for her to refuse to share a planned menu? Is she used to people pushing back or trying to argue about it? I feel like you did the only thing you really could, and if it happened again I think I’d try framing like Pay No Attention’s and really emphasize that you’re just trying to decide if you will need to do your own thing for food (you’re not trying to ask for changes to the menu or even requesting accommodations).

      Or, you can decide it’s a “just not worth it” conversation and bring your own food, and if there are things you can eat, you consider it a nice bonus.

    4. Nightengale*

      there isn’t a better way to handle it that I know about

      I wish we could get more organizing people to recognize the fact that a lot of participants need information. Whether it’s for diet needs or other accessibility needs or family caregiving schedule or whether an event is reachable by public transit. How can I make plans or know if I need an accommodation or not if I don’t have complete and accurate information about what is going to happen?

  74. University Job Seeker*

    I’m a finalist for a staff job at a university. When I met with HR this week, they described how they set salaries, aiming to be at the top of the local market, and for internal equity, and looking at experience. The job has a range of about 10K.

    Do people negotiate salary at universities? If I get the offer, I was planning to use Allison’s advice and say something like, “Any chance you could do _[2K more]__?” Would that be a faux pas, especially since they’ve already put consideration into the number they give me?

    1. Pay no attention...*

      Is the university public or private? IME, you can probably negotiate a little bit at a private institution, but probably not at a public university where they might be much more formulaic on where a candidate falls on the band (eg. level of education + years of experience + # of skill requirements met = $this amount)

    2. Dancing Otter*

      It sounds as though HR went into that process to warn you that there won’t be any room for negotiation in this instance.

    3. Alex*

      You can. I’ve worked at universities for the past 15 years in a couple of different roles, and I’ve asked about flexibility in salary in all of them. Some said yes, some said no, but none were offended by my asking.

  75. H.Regalis*

    I’m training a new coworker on some tasks. She has worked in our field for a good decade longer than I have so it’s mostly, “This is our procedure for doing XYZ task.”

    We all work remotely. There are times when she’ll call me to ask me questions, which is great! I want her to be comfortable asking questions if she isn’t sure about something.

    Our accents are fairly different and I think she has a hard time understanding me sometimes. I’ve trained other people at this job and not had these kinds of issues. I’ll ask her if what I said makes sense and she’ll say yeah, but then will not do things quite right. My guess is that she feels awkward being like, “I have no idea what you just said.” I have been on that end of things myself.

    I know hearing each other talk more will fix this eventually, but in the meantime what can I do to make this better? I want to be a good trainer. So far all I’ve come up with is sharing my screen while I talk so there’s a visual aid. Should I ask her if my accent is hard to understand? I try to do things over text as much as possible so that’s not an issue, but she likes to talk on the phone when she has questions, which I totally get because it’s way faster than typing.

    1. bee*

      If she has specific questions on projects she’s working on, I would have her share her screen instead and walk her through how to find the answer. In that case, she’ll have to let you know if she’s not understanding what you’re saying, and the process is also more likely to stick if she’s working through it herself.

  76. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

    I want to thank everyone for the thread last week about ADHD.
    I purchased the kindle version of Jessica McCabe’s “How to ADHD” and I’m in awe of all I’m reading which applies to me. I’m only up to chapter 7. The recommendation was spot-on!!! I had suspected I had ADHD, but had postponed attempting to get a diagnosis (which is typical).
    I went to my oncologist yesterday and PCP today and am about to restart Duloxetine (which I stopped about 18 months ago when I was insurance-challenged). And I’ve got a referral to go get tested for ADHD.
    I have faith that life will improve.

    1. Not That Jane*

      I’m so glad you have hope! Later in life adhd diagnosis has been life changing for a few people in my life too.

  77. dejected*

    I got rejected from something I really wanted, that takes a grueling yearlong application process, that is mandatory for the next step in my career….and this is the second time. I’ve been told by multiple people that I’m a great candidate, so to have this happen again is devastating. I can’t do this again.

  78. Fan of AAM in Vermont*

    Dear Alison,
    Longtime reader here. I just wanted to send you my deepest condolences on the loss of your mom. It sounds like she was an amazing, inspirational woman.
    With deep sympathy,

  79. Spazztastic Interview*

    Anyone have an in-person panel job interview that you just couldn’t read?

    I started spastic/rambling and not able to communicate my thoughts well (very needed in the role), but got much better when it got technical and in the weeds. We ended with everyone laughing a bit and joking through final questions, but we also ended very promptly on time. No talk of next steps and I was quickly escorted out while they talked.

    I’ve had a few interviews so far, this was the last one I think. Suppose I’m just kicking myself for how badly it went at the first half, but I did love the team. Their follow up questions were well thought and we were on the same page so often. I know I didn’t get it, but still wanted to leave a good impression and maybe connect with a few folks.

    Anyway, happy for some insight on how to take it! I know there’s not much to glean from this part of the process, since it’s all wait and see, but I know this was a very rare flop on my part and figured I’d see if anyone else had similar experiences!

  80. call me wheels*

    Was busy yesterday so possibly posting this past when anyone would see but after 3 interviews for 3 different roles this week I have been offered a job! Yesterday morning I had an interview for a temp position at the local university. It went well, except the hours had been listed as ‘ad hoc’ and it turned out it was a full time in person job, which I’m not able to do with my health. I said I could manage about 3 days a week in person and they said they would think about it. In the afternoon, I got a call offering me the job, but the lady on the phone didn’t know anything about reduced hours, so I said I couldn’t answer until I knew. She was able to confirm the 3 days a week but I asked for some time to contact another job I’m waiting to hear from before I accept. I’ve emailed the other place to ask if there’s any way they could let me know before the end of Monday but they didn’t reply yet so possibly I will take the temp position, we will see. I’m just excited to have something :)

    And also, yesterday I signed the contract for my first freelance work ^_^ I got a little look at the project I’ll be working on and I’m very excited! Feels like things are coming together :)

  82. call me gotye*

    My boss talks to me like I’m an idiot. It’s really starting to affect my self-esteem.

    She keeps explaining things to me (often things I trained her on)—often when I’m actually asking about something else. For example, I asked her if there was a known issue with a certain email provider and our CRM system, and she stood over my shoulder and talked me through how to look up a patron account by email. I told her I had already done this, and she didn’t listen.
    That’s something one would do with a brand-new employee. I know how to do that and have for years. I trained her on it. Also, that isn’t what I was asking.

    She also will often repeat what I said right back to me and ‘correct’ it by rewording it slightly without actually changing the meaning. (‘So the report isn’t accurate.’ ‘Well, it’s not that it’s inaccurate, but it isn’t outputting information accurately.’)

    It doesn’t help that she constantly cuts me off, usually to interject with some interpretation (and never a correct one) of what she thought I was going to say. I constantly have to dispel these weird ideas about what she *thinks* I was about to say before I can even finish my sentences. It’s extremely frustrating.

    It’s weird. I assumed it was because she was younger than me and I had been here longer, but hey, I didn’t want the job she applied for! I’m fine being supervised. And I figured that putting up with a bit of that at the beginning might be expected. But she keeps doing this a year later. I’ve tried to be extra conscious of how I’m speaking to her to make sure it’s not in reaction to something I’m doing (undermining, etc.), because that would be one thing. But I’ve always spoken to her with respect.

    I have to say something about this, of course. I think I should at least try to talk to her about it before I bring it to a grandboss. Any tips on how to navigate this without making her feel attacked?

    (Also, sorry—posted this under the wrong post by mistake!)

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yikes! Maybe in the moment can you name it in a very neutral way? (trying to channel Alison here)
      “Yes, I do recall we went over this last year when I did your training during your onboarding. What I was asking is xxxx”
      Does she do better with written questions, like if you email her?
      Does she do this in a more formal meeting, like your one on one?
      Maybe see if you can figure out when she doesn’t do it and how you’re communicating it?
      Good luck!

  83. Anxious Annie*

    Looking for advice managing relationships during a job hunt within a small network

    I (32f) currently work for a planning/engineering consulting firm on projects for government clients. I have both the benefit and the challenge of my direct manager (Mary) being a very, very close friend. We have had a strong partnership (under her leadership) and have built a team of 10 over the last 7 years. Today, I am in a state of complete and utter burnout. Mary is aware of my burnout and does her best to support me, but it simply isn’t working. I took medical leave for my mental health in 2023 and upon my return, stopped managing projects and reduced my hours (theoretically – often it’s much more due to travel, deadlines, and non-billable yet obligatory tasks).

    I need a change, and want to apply for a state government position within the same state agency that we serve as consultants. The position is entry-level and focused around a particular software that I am probably overqualified for in skill level & experience, but the department/subject matter is completely different from what I do now. The position would be in close physical proximity to my current clients who I have worked with my whole career, and I even worked in-house at this same office from 2017 to 2020. I have a strong relationship and a good rapport with the client project manager, Phoebe, but she has known Mary longer and works with her much more closely.

    I don’t know the hiring manager for the entry-level job I want, but my resume shows that I have done a substantial amount of work for Phoebe’s team, so it seems obvious that the hiring manager should ask for Phoebe’s feedback. My instinct is to tell Phoebe I am applying ahead of time so that she is not caught off-guard if approached about it, but I know she would feel guilty if she didn’t immediately tell Mary. Even though Mary knows I am burnt out, I don’t necessarily want her to know that I am actively planning to leave/applying elsewhere. After all, I might not even get an offer for this state job!

    A lot of detail for a really straightforward question… Who should I tell, and when? I really appreciate any advice at all!

  84. Stall Question*

    I have a minor and maybe strange question about work bathroom etiquette. When changing a plaster on a minor wound, is it acceptable to do this at the sinks, or should one go into a stall?

    I have been erring on the side of going into a stall whenever this has come up, under the principle of not showing others my blood or open wounds. However, I recently wore a pimple patch to work and had to change it, and this is harder without a mirror. I ended up waiting until no one else was at the sinks and quickly doing it there.

    I might be overthinking this. I’m not ashamed of my pimples, wounds, or body, but was concerned that exposing used dressings with visible fluids to others might be gross even if it’s technically in the bathroom.

    Thanks!

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I feel like the more privacy you have for these things the better. I guess I default to, do I mind seeing this stuff? And usually if I ask myself this, the answer is yes.

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