coworker’s food restrictions mean that I’ll be the one restricted, saying you have to discuss an offer with your spouse, and more

by Alison Green on September 27, 2024

I’m off this week. Here are some past letters that I’m making new again, rather than leaving them to wilt in the archives.

1. My coworker’s food restrictions mean that I’ll be the one restricted

My company is based mainly in two cities. Every so often, we all meet up in one city or another and go out to eat, paid for by the company. It’s usually a really nice evening, and viewed as a real treat. We’ve always had to be a little careful where we book, because a couple of employees need gluten-free food. But both cities have fantastic restaurants with lots of options — not the kind of places with 30 different menu options and only one gluten-free. So it’s never been much of an issue.

Now we have a new employee who has particular religious dietary requirements. He offered to do the research to find a restaurant which would suit everyone in his city. Great, I thought. Except the only restaurants which he claims will work are ones which serve curry. Curry is — literally — the only thing I cannot eat. I’ve tried so many times, and been sick so many times, that now I can barely tolerate the smell.

His response was, “Well, there will be a non-curry option for you.” Yes, there will. But in most places, it’s plain, dull, uninteresting food. When I’ve tried this in the past, I’ve been served unseasoned chicken lumps and potato, or egg omelettes and chips. I don’t want to be sitting eating that when previously we had lovely evenings with steaks, Italian, or Chinese food, and it was a real treat.

I feel as though I’m being penalized for someone else’s needs — that something I previously enjoyed is essentially being taken away. Frankly, I’d rather not attend at all as I feel that I’m being made into the exception when my own needs should be the easiest of all to meet. It’s literally one dish I need to avoid.

The other employee won’t accept my looking for an alternative restaurant, as he says I don’t know enough about his needs to find one. Is there any way at all to push back on this?

If this is more than preference for you, and the smell of the restaurant will actually make you sick, that needs to be accommodated. It doesn’t make sense to put him in charge of picking a place that meets everyone’s needs if he’s not in fact willing to do that.

But if this is just an issue of preference — you can eat there but you’d prefer somewhere with food you like better — and if it’s really true that he can’t eat anywhere else in the city, then this is just part of the deal with business meals; sometimes you’re going to be stuck with food you’re not thrilled about. I know that sucks when the food has previously been a big part of the appeal, but if he truly can’t eat anywhere else, it’s more important that he be included than that the food be awesome. Unfortunately, because he’s refusing to share information about his needs, he’s making it impossible for you to suggest other options, and that’s not reasonable.

If you haven’t already, I’d first take a look at the menu at the place he picked to make sure you’re right that it’s not somewhere you could happily eat. But if that is indeed the case, it’s reasonable to say, “Unfortunately that restaurant would be difficult for me, so can we discuss other options?”

But if he refuses to share information about what would make a restaurant work for him, it’s worth talking to whoever organizes these evenings about what other options there might be. In the end, it might turn out that this is it — but since it does impact other people, he should be willing to have a dialogue about it.

– 2018

2. Is it better to send the perfect application or apply right away?

I’d be very grateful for your take on a recent job application problem I had: I saw a really exciting job opening at my current company, for which you had to apply via the company’s application site. I only saw the opening on Friday afternoon and didn’t have the chance to look at it properly until the weekend. It said the deadline was the Monday and it had the standard application format on this website, which includes the option of uploading a portfolio. It didn’t seem to be compulsory for this job, but it’s the kind of job for which my portfolio would be relevant, and I thought since I was a stretch for the job (they seemed to want more experience than I had), it would be best to do everything I could to help my application.

Unfortunately the best and most recent samples of my work are work I did at my current job, which I didn’t have at home. I decided to write a draft cover letter and CV, bring the samples home from work on Monday so I could scan and upload them in the evening, and gamble that the job opening would still be open. Unfortunately when I got home it had closed. Out of interest, do you think I did the right thing? Is it better to send a weaker application (in this case, without an up-to-date portfolio) while the opening is still there, or only apply if your application is perfect?

There’s no good answer here, other than “send in a good application as soon as you reasonably can” — which is what you tried to do. Sometimes the timing just won’t work in your favor, and it’s impossible to fully guard against that. You could have taken only an hour, and it still could have closed before you applied if you happened to have bad timing. The main thing is not to delay because of obsessive perfectionism or procrastination. In your case, though, you weren’t doing that.

The one thing I would do differently is, if you know you’re job searching or are likely to be job searching reasonably soon, have everything you need ready to go. You never know when something will pop up that you want to apply for, and ideally you wouldn’t be starting from scratch at that point in getting materials together.

– 2018

3. Should I admit to using internet blocking software?

I recently installed a blocking software on my work computer that allows me limited minutes per day on a custom list of time-wasting websites, a decision which – coupled with a few other changes – has massively upped my work day productivity and organization.

My manager has asked what I’ve done that’s had such a big impact on my organization. I feel a bit conflicted about talking about this software – mostly because I feel I shouldn’t admit that, up until now, I’ve had real problems with procrastinating online! Would you suggest keeping it vague, or should I be honest about a useful tool I’ve found to help me address a problem my boss told me head on I needed to fix?

Ooooh. Yeah, this is likely to come across as “I was wasting so much time before that you were seeing it reflected in my work” and that’s not a great thing to say to your manager, even if it’s now behind you. You mentioned you made a few other changes too, so I might just explain those and not focus on this one.

– 2018

4. Saying that you have to talk over a job offer with your spouse

What are your thoughts on telling a potential employer, “I will need to talk this over with my husband/wife” when considering a job offer? Does it sound too dependent or is it just honest?

It’s pretty common to say “I’d like a few days to think it over and talk with my spouse.”

That said, there’s no need to say it. People without spouses also ask for time to think over offers. It’s fine to simply say, “I’d like to take a few days to think this over. Could I get back to you by Friday?”

– 2016

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  1. Literally a Cat*

    #1 is so tricky. I’m saying this as someone who will pick curry as the one thing I would eat for rest of my life: the bug and bonus of curry is it’s incredibly aromatic, so that if the smell makes you nauseous the location would automatically be not the right place. I would love to know if there truly is a religious reason where curry is the only food someone can eat, as I’ve lived in multiple places where curry is the default food AND the local dominant religion has specific food restrictions, but I’ve never been aware of this highly specific restriction. My other thought is, Chinese Buddhism has a blanket ban on animal products, garlic, onion, ginger, chives, and the few similars, and some specific people will not eat root vegetables out of principle due to it kills the plants (I think Jain are like this though I’m less familiar). So what would your work place do if there is a person who is a Chinese Buddhist?

    I would absolutely love an update on this.

    1. Nah*

      With Orthodox Jewish members of my extended family where they’re also fielding allergies and sensitivities, I know finding ANY sort of place they can go to is such a massive hassle. The food has to be cooked in kosher appliances (I’m unsure of the specific term for it, apologies. they can’t eat anything we cook unless it’s in an oven that’s never had non-kosher dishes made in it – yes that meant we regularly have two turkeys or lasagnas and the like at family gatherings) in addition to following the other restrictions. it’s to the point there’s a whopping two non-explicitly-jewish-owned restaurants we can all go to, one of which is also a (very delicious, oh my word) Indian restaurant, as well as a sushi bar. I know we’re kinda in the middle of nowhere out here but it’s not *that* extreme, and yet!

      3. Artemesia*

        I used to travel with a Jewish colleague who kept kosher; he would ask restaurants to prepare fish for him in foil with very specific directions which he said met kosher requirements. (I am not Jewish and so don’t know the nuances but he was very orthodox and said this met the requirements). We could thus go anywhere nice that had a broad menu that included fresh fish. I am sure his meal was not as wonderful as a kosher restaurant would have provided but he did not inflict his serious restrictions on everyone else.

        1. Nicosloanica*

          There’s a huge range in what different practitioners do in this area. It’s not an all-or-nothing situation.

    3. Earlk*

      I imagine they eat Halal and even in London it wasn’t until fairly recently that there was a variety of restaurants that were halal weren’t some kind of cuisine that was mostly curries. Plus there’s different levels of strictness, some people who keep halal would be fine going to any restaurant and eating a vegetarian or fish dish and some won’t want to go anywhere that sold alcohol.

      I think if there are options where technically everyone could eat even if one didn’t have the best options for them (like the LW) then you go to there but if someone’s diet is so restrictive that there are no reasonable options for everyone then usually that person with the extremely restrictive diet (e.g. I worked with a raw vegan for a bit) then generally that person knows they’re unlikely to be catered for.

      1. Green great dragon*

        That’s where my mind went – it fits with there being multiple suitable restaurants but them all being curry. But the refusal to share details makes it hard for OP.

        I think OP would have to suck it up the first time. But I don’t think they have to do curry for all future meals. If it is something like needing halal, then my understanding is that vegan food in other restaurants may be OK*, so it might be that OP and co-worker have to take turns being the one with the edible-but-not-inspiring option (yes, I have had excellent vegan food, but I’ve also had some very dull vegetarian options in otherwise great restaurants).

        *I’m no expert and this may not be the case for OP’s co-worker, but I think it’s reasonable to ask him to provide further details before concluding there’s no option but curry.

      2. metadata minion*

        Yeah, there are a couple halal restaurants in my area and they’re both Indian/Pakistani, just because that’s the predominant cultural background of the people in our area who keep halal.

        1. Literally a Cat*

          I’m now more and more curious on where OP was from. There are so many Muslim practicing places in the world, most grills from central Asian, or North African, or LanZhou beef noodles, should be halal.

          I emphasis on “should”, as I happened to find a LanZhou noodles place in Australia that also sold pork. I’m still whiplashed by that.

          1. Ferret*

            Should note that there is no indication in the letter that the specific requirement id for Halal food – this is an example (or assumption) coming from the comment section

      3. Roeslein*

        Halal is pretty mainstream in most places, I would find it very odd if there weren’t several dozens of restaurants belonging to people of various ethnic and cultural backgrounds serving halal food in any major city. It sounds like their specific brand of religious dietary restrictions is les common.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          data point – I live in the second-largest city in my state and there are zero halal options, though the largest city DOES have several halal options, and only a few of them are curry places

        2. DE*

          The letter was originally blogged about six years ago and may have been written far sooner. Who knows from where it was written.

          1. ferrina*

            I was very curious about that as well. Every restaurant that I’ve been in that had curry also had good non-curry options (like tandoori). Of course, that doesn’t help if the smell makes LW nauseous. Or if it’s a certain spice that is commonly used.

        3. ThatGirl*

          I live in an area with a significant Muslim population so we have a LOT of halal restaurants, but I don’t think they are that common elsewhere, especially in areas that don’t have mosques or any significant Muslim presence.

        4. sofar*

          Yeah I was gonna say. If Halal is the issue, I live in medium-sized city and there are several Halal restaurants that are Mediterranean/grill-type stuff, and there are no curries on the menu.

        5. Ineffable Bastard*

          I lived most of my life in a city with 22 million people and one would have an extremely hard time finding a halal place or even a curry dish that is not Japanese.

      4. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        I was wondering because I had the impression that the LW might be British. In my area in the US, I don’t know of any “curry” restaurants. I have Indian or Thai restaurants that have a curry section on the menu, but not purely curry, so there would be plenty of other good things to eat.

        1. JFC*

          Same here. Curry is a menu option at some places here but I’ve never heard of a place that serves it exclusively, although I’m in a mid-sized city in the South.

    4. Nebula*

      Yes I wondered whether this coworker is Jain – the only places I know of which cater to Jains are some Indian restaurants, and I think that would also account for his unwillingness to let the LW check for another restaurant, because often the requirements are misunderstood by people outside the religion. I think it’s also possibly ended up this restricted due to the fact they were having to accommodate these religious requirements and gluten-free options for other coworkers. It’s one of those things where I really feel for LW, but I think they just had to accept that this is what’s going to work for most people and they’re unlucky.

      1. Roeslein*

        Interesting, I have Jain colleagues and why they prefer Indian restaurant my understanding is that they are happy to go to any vegetarian restaurant (of which there are many in this city) and find something that suits them on the menu. I hope I haven’t inadvertently made them uncomfortable by inviting them to non-Indian veggie places!

        1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          Jains are basically vegan with the added restriction that you mustn’t kill the plant when you take the part you want to eat. So no carrots or potatoes, but you can have lentils and spinach. I once ordered a Jain meal out of sheer curiosity on an Indian airline, and ended up having a dry, insipid sandwich (western style bread, not even Indian) with an ersatz cheese with a limp lettuce leaf and dry tomato. Others were tucking into some tasty looking curry, so I was pretty peeved at that.

        2. Ferret*

          There are probably plenty of Jain who are happy to go places that have a good vegetarian selection, same as most of my Jewish friends, but presumably as with any culture there is variation in the specific rules and how strictly everyone adheres to them

          1. Media Monkey*

            i had a Jain coworker and he would lean towards vegan meals but would often eat vegetarian. as with anything, i’m sure it depends how strictly a person adheres to the rules!

          2. Nebula*

            Yes I suppose I was maybe assuming this person is quite strict, due to the narrowing down of the options to one, but that might actually have been because of the competing restrictions from other people as well.

      2. Jackalope*

        The thing that makes me not sure that’s correct is that the OP said the smell makes them feel ill. I love curry, but as was mentioned in the opening thread on this post, it tends to have a strong smell. If you’re in a restaurant that serves it as a primary dish, you’re not going to be able to get away from that. So if being in the restaurant makes OP feel sick then that seems like something to take into account as well.

        (That being said, if that weren’t the case, I would want to ask the OP if they know what causes them to get sick when they eat curry. Most restaurants I’ve been to with curry dishes also have other stuff as well. I’m wondering if it’s one of the main spices, because that might be something they could get around without having to eat something terribly bland.)

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          The thing that makes me not sure that’s correct is that the OP said the smell makes them feel ill.

          I would want to ask the OP if they know what causes them to get sick when they eat curry.

          As someone who has had their allergy denied for most of my life (my parents love it so I couldn’t be allergic to it. My sister still hides allergens in unrelated dishes to test and make sure my allergy is real), that would absolutely come across as trying to negotiate the allergy. I probably wouldn’t even bother announcing the conversation is over before walking away from it and you. It’s not something you can rules-lawyer away.

          I’m not up for being peer-pressured into being poisoned again, and neither should be LW1.

          1. Jackalope*

            That’s a peculiar interpretation of what I said. My first paragraph was explicitly stating that for someone made ill by the smell of curry, that needs to be taken into consideration. Perhaps my comment wasn’t clear, but that’s in the sense of recognizing that even being in the restaurant could be an issue because curry specifically smells very strong. The second paragraph was talking about how if the OP can manage to eat in the restaurant, they could try to figure out what it is that they’re reacting to. They were upset about having to eat just a plain omelet or other very bland foods. If they knew that the reaction was to, for example, a specific spice (or handful of spices), then they could get something on the menu that isn’t curry. If the reaction is to curry, I’m failing to see how eating something that’s not curry, after figuring out what they’re reacting to in the curry so it’s not in the other dish as well, is being peer-pressured into poisoning themselves?

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              Curry is — literally — the only thing I cannot eat. I’ve tried so many times, and been sick so many times, that now I can barely tolerate the smell.

              LW1 states outright the smells make her sick because the food has repeatedly. The curry-free dish at a Curry House is going to carry a higher risk of cross-contamination than it would elsewhere, and you were literally trying to pick apart the allergy so you can dismiss/minimize it.

              I stand by statement.

              1. wordswords*

                I’m sorry that your family has been so utterly dismissive of your allergy and the health risks and consequences. That sounds absolutely awful and traumatic.

                However, I think your history here is causing you to read malice and dismissiveness into Jackalope’s comments that just… aren’t what they’re saying. Problem-solving about the root of an issue in order to try to address it may or may not end up working, but it’s not the same thing as trying to rules-lawyer the issue out of existence.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  Experience has taught me that I can be reasonable later, but if I don’t come out swinging, I won’t be taken seriously. If I tolerate attitudes like Jackalope’s initially, I’ll be compromising my health in doing so.

                  There’s absolutely malice and dismissiveness in Jackalope’s words, irrespective of intentions. Jackalope is approaching the problem as “find a way to get LW1 into the Curry House” instead of “find a restaurant where LW1 can eat.”

              2. Jackalope*

                No, I was literally trying to pick apart the allergy so it could be accommodated. I have plenty of family and close friends who have food allergies, and they range from “just serve a dish without that ingredient” to “I can’t have that ingredient in my house ever if I’m going to feed this person” or “I’m trained in giving Epipen shots to toddlers in case I’m babysitting and my nibling finds and eats a cashew on the ground at the park”. So I’m well-versed in working around food allergies. One of the most basic requirements for that is knowing what food you’re allergic to so you can make sure you don’t eat it. Again, I left open the possibility that due to the physiological response to even the smell of curry, the OP might not be able to eat at the suggested restaurants at all. And other people have mentioned that if the OP is in the UK, they might be referring to a restaurant that ONLY serves curry, with maybe one non-curry dish of omelet and chips. If so that makes this harder. But if they are physically able to eat in the restaurant (suggested by the fact that they have gone to curry places before and eaten the omelet and chips, although if the smell of spices in the air makes them sick that might not work), then figuring out what they’re allergic to means they might be able to eat something else. For example, if they’re allergic to coconut milk then that gives them different available foods than if they’re allergic to turmeric. This is…. super normal working around a food allergy stuff, but it sounds like it hasn’t been an issue for the OP as much before this because they’ve been able to avoid eating in restaurants serving primarily curry while at these work meals so that’s why I suggested it.

                (And cross-contamination *can* be a big deal for allergies, but it isn’t always. Plenty of people can handle some cross-contamination as long as the allergen isn’t actually in their food, plenty of others can’t. Only the OP can determine that.)

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I am not the OP, but I’ve been trying to figure out why I get an upset stomach when I eat most Indian food, and it’s surprisingly difficult! There are a lot of spices involved, they’re not listed on the menus, and they’re not all spices that you’re likely to get “on their own” as the sole spice in a dish. So far, in my case I’ve ruled out turmeric and cumin, since both of those I tried an experiment of adding them regularly to something I cooked at home for a while, but “try every spice that might be in curry individually to see which upsets your stomach” is not an easy project or fast project, particularly if you generally don’t scratch cook things at home to add your own spices to.

          In my case, this project has slowed since I found two things at the local Indian food cart that I can reliably eat, although I would like to figure it out and add more things to my safe list at some point. Relatedly, large food cart pods are often a good way to solve group meals with disparate food issues, although that’ll vary depending on the particular collection of carts. My larger local food cart pod is excellent for halal (they even have halal bacon cheeseburgers (they use beef bacon)), but has no carts that specialize in either vegetarian or gluten-free so those take more exploring and looking at menus to find good options. (Some good options for each exist, but you can’t just go to the cart with a big “vegetarian” or “gluten-free” sign and order anything off the menu from that point like you can from the 5-ish different kinds of halal food carts.) On the other hand, I’m not sure that any place in town here is kosher. I think I’d have to drive to a specific neighborhood in the nearby larger city to find a kosher restaurant. (I am not Jewish, but generally have an easy time navigating my own food restrictions at kosher restaurants (except for the Indian ones), so I’ll happily eat at them when I find them.)

          1. Burpees are evil*

            Definitely agree that ‘“try every spice that might be in curry individually to see which upsets your stomach” is not an easy project or fast project’!
            As someone with various allergies and food sensitivities, I know that curry will give me breathing and/or stomach problems instantly, but I can’t tell you which spices for certain I need to avoid, apart from chili which I was specifically tested for. I don’t really want to subject myself to pain and danger repeatedly when I can just avoid spices. Let’s not even start on the “it’s not that spicy” brigade…

    5. desdemona*

      My mind actually went straight to Jainism! Some Indian restaurants carry Jain menus, which meet the dietary restrictions (including no garlic/onions/etc).

      As a person with an onion allergy, I’ve been meaning to seek out a Jain menu, myself :)

    6. Roland*

      Borrowing from Star Trek and Transformers:
      The needs and desires of one must take into account the desires and neexs of the many.
      Disclosures, in part or in whole, by some or all, to Event Planner might be necessary.

    7. JennG*

      Some orthodox Muslim halal requirements are similar to orthodox Judaism in that cookware, etc., that has touched non-halal options is not halal until cleansed a particular way. So it’s entirely possible to need to pick a fully halal restaurant.

  2. Zurg*

    OP 1 – As someone with Celiac, I often times end up eating the bland option to appease everyone else. Unless it makes you physically ill, I think you can get by doing this once.

    1. No to the truffle shuffle*

      Once, yes, but that reads as though this is going to be the default restaurant in that city, now. The curry aversion is real—I have an issue with curry, cilantro, and truffle (I believe they’re all related) and any one of them in a high concentration can make me nauseated. I’ve bowed out when the group wants to go for Indian food, make due if it’s Thai, and truffle is generally not an issue (except once in a specialty truffle oil shop in Napa CA where I lasted less than a minute). But if it was all Indian every time, I’d have a bit of a concern as well.

      1. TM*

        With the cilantro/coriander problem, I’ve learned that curry pastes are fine if the coriander leaf has been thoroughly ground – if the plant cells are smashed open, the chemical compound that causes the ick taste is oxidised and broken down into something else that doesn’t have the same issue.

        So, I’ve had some good results by asking if curry gravies are thoroughly pureed, and if so, to please NOT garnish with any fresh coriander leaf when the dish is served.

        As to it being a “medical issue” , as far as I know, it’s not an allergy. It simply makes the food taste disgusting to those of us with the misfortune to have this particular gene.

        1. nee: email settings*

          Thank you for explaining this! I cannot abide cilantro garnish (or the fresh cilantro smell) but enjoy cilantro in things.

      2. metadata minion*

        “I believe they’re all related”

        Just FYI, they’re not — truffle is a fungus, cilantro is an herbaceous plant, and curry can mean any of a vast array of spice blends unless you’re talking about curry leaf, which is from a tree.

    2. Empress Ki*

      Your food restrictions are due to a medical reason. Other peoole should be understanding of your needs and make an effort to eat in a place with good options for people with Celiac.

      Since the food restrictions of the coworker aren’t medical, it would be reasonable to find a compromise between OP needs and the coworker needs.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Compromise needs to be between the coworker and the whole team. I doubt if many are happy to be downgraded from high end restaurants to a curry house

        1. Good Enough For Government Work*

          There’s no reason a curry house can’t be high end. I’m British and have eaten in some exquisite Indian restaurants.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Yes, thank you. Particularly in a business setting (though really, everywhere), there may be competing restrictions to navigate but you cannot deem one more important than another

          1. Psychmusing*

            Well to be fair, one is a choice and one means you can die so it’s not the same. I mean I would always accommodate a religious choice and it’s incredibly important to do so but as someone who has had to race to the hospital with a non breathing child…. It really makes me raise an internal eyebrow when people equate choices as being the exact same.

            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              Medical accommodations don’t always mean you can die, and religious restrictions can mean that to an individual. It is not the place of anyone overseeing or coordinating this process to make this distinction.

      3. Seconds*

        If my food restrictions are so restrictive (for whatever reason) that my options would be overly restrictive to others, I would much rather limit myself than ask others to limit themselves.

        I have highly restrictive dietary requirements for medical reasons—there are 3 restaurants where I can eat safely, in a city of 1.5 million people. I’ve taken others to those restaurants (which are good places), but I can’t imagine restricting others to *only* those places. So I have spent many hours at other restaurants eating nothing at all. (I bring my own food, and eat at other times.)

        That seems like a much better choice than asking everyone to always restrict their food to the few choices that are okay for me.

    3. Dek*

      I think the issue is it won’t only be just this once. It would be indefinitely, for every one of these gatherings in the future.

      There may be no good solution where everyone gets to enjoy the treat equally. But it really would help if the coworker would let others know what his needs are so they can try and broaden the search.

  3. CityMouse*

    The one thing I’m kind of questioning about LW1 is if this is specifically seeking out halal or kosher meat options because then, the other issue is, could this coworker choose to eat vegetarian at another restaurant? (I’ve been in the position of finding halal restaurants and we’ve also been okay with careful vegetarian options, for all the various accommodations I have made, I can’t think of another reason someone would be limited to specific curry places). Because if that’s the case then there is a reasonable accommodation that doesn’t involve limiting to particular restaurants. In that case, I think alternating is appropriate instead of always going to the specific places.

    2. Nodramalama*

      There could just be a lot of different dietary requirements to put together. Like often vegetarian food/vegan food is not gluten free and/or nut free. But a lot of Indian restaurants, or example, cater to all of that.

      1. Mongrel*

        And some of the more devout religious groups may have stricter requirements that a culturally based restaurant knows to accommodate.
        Jain vegetarianism, for example, excludes “root and underground vegetables”, so even things like onion, garlic and potato are verboten.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I don’t think it was okay for him to brush off her offer to look for other restaurants by saying “you don’t understand it” though. It would be one thing if his picks were working for them both, but it’s not. I’d be more understanding if the curry houses he’s choosing were one of the few places both halal and gluten free (or whatever his deal is) but I’d also want the chance to offer my own picks. I’d be furious if he were just avoiding vegetarian food at non halal places. That said, OP isn’t the clearest about whether her own deal is critical or a preference. I do sympathise with her very strong dislike though.

      1. UKDancer*

        Agreed. I have issues with some of the spices in Indian food in that something in a lot of commercial Indian food makes me sick. I don’t usually have the same issue with other curry types. When I’ve had coworkers who needed halal food we had a discussion about what was possible for them and for me and found somewhere suitable for both. Sometimes this was a very good nearby Turkish restaurant or a Moroccan place and sometimes it involved an Italian with a wide range of vegetarian options.

        But you have to start by talking and working things out. You shouldn’t just veto things and refuse to discuss it.

    4. Earlk*

      Halal doesn’t always just extend to what they’re eating, some people also don’t feel comfortable going to places that sell alcohol.

      1. Elsa*

        As someone who keeps strictly kosher, I was seriously ticked off by LW1’s offer to research other restaurants. If I’ve been keeping these religous eating restrictions for over 40 years, and you’ve never heard of them until today, then do you really think you’re going to do a better job than me at finding places for me to eat? It just seems so presumptuous and whatever the religion version of mansplaining is.

        1. Glissandi*

          Wow, that seems like a serious over-reaction to someone trying to solve a problem that you are causing for them!

          “Do you really think you’re going to do a better job than me at finding places for me to eat?” If the problem is that the place you found prevents THEM from eating, and the goal is to find somewhere that works for both, yes, they can probably do a better job, or at least as good a job. Because you must have done a piss-poor job so far! You have centred your own needs to the exclusion of others, and that is not acceptable, kind or reasonable.

        2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

          Could be the opposite too – the coworker could be of a background that eats halal and likes curry/meat so to him, a (perhaps female) coworker’s avoidance of curry is less important to him than his desire to eat his favorite food versus vegetarian Italian food.

          And, I’m sorry but while I personally don’t drink alcohol, insisting on not entering a restaurant that serves alcohol if you don’t live in a Muslim country is not reasonable for anyone.

          1. ecnaseener*

            re your second point, it doesn’t really matter what you find subjectively reasonable — the company can’t and shouldn’t try to make him do something against his religion.

            1. Random Bystander*

              It’s unreasonable in the sense of not matching the likely reality. I know where I live, despite being a very heavily Baptist (no drinking alcohol) area, I can’t think of any restaurants that don’t serve alcohol that are not either fast food or only serve breakfast (or is the Cracker Barrel which serves breakfast all day but does have a lunch/dinner menu).

            2. Doug*

              Religious accommodations have to be reasonable and if your religion requires you to do something unreasonable, you should have to suffer that yourself. Like if your religion requires that you never be in a room alone with a member of the opposite sex, then you better never be in a position of power or authority where you have direct reports. If you do, either quit or get over your self-imposed, arbitrary rules.

              In this case, it’s likely there is a reasonable place to go that could accommodate everyone, but if it turns out there isn’t. Like if you are strict kosher/halal and refuse to go somewhere that serves alcohol or can’t serve halal meat and there is no place that can accommodate that, then maybe you just don’t get to go to business dinners. That’s not the rest of the group’s fault, it’s your choice to prioritize your beliefs over a voluntary benefit.

          2. Anon here*

            There are quite a few assumptions in this comment and it unfortunately comes off as quite islamophobic.

        3. Hyaline*

          Maybe she won’t be “helpful” but it’s silly not to at least explain, especially as his needs aren’t the only needs. Finding some compromise has to begin with clear understanding of all the needs and complications involved. In fact, I wonder if a motivation like this is where the problem started—“oh, Sam, we don’t understand your halal stuff, you just pick!”

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            Yes. I recently hosted a young girl with muliple allergies. She offered to just cook for herself so that I didn’t need to factor them all in, but I said no, I’ll take up the challenge. There were a couple of hiccups but I was very proud of finding some crisps that had not been cooked in sunflower oil, and she was delighted too, having more or less given up on ever being able to eat crisps.

            I have another friend with terrible terrible celiac (she had stomach pains for two months after a ten-minute journey in a car that had recently been used to transport a couple of sacks of flour) and she comes to our place with everything she needs to cook dinner for us (including her own sponge for cleaning utensils. She just asks me not to empty the dishwasher because she knows she can trust that a pan is gluten free when it’s just been through a cycle.

            However, I can imagine that for a lot of people, it’s just too hard. A friend recently made a vegan soup. Our vegan friend helped herself and said it tasted good but… she asked how it had been made and it turned out there was some parmesan cheese in it.

        4. doreen*

          The LW won’t know better that you what the kosher restrictions are – but it’s possible that they could find a kosher Italian, French , Chinese restaurant instead of a deli-type restaurant. I don’t know what the coworkers eating restrictions are – maybe it’s true that every restaurant that accommodates them serves lot of curry and only a non-curry dish or two. Or maybe they have religious food restrictions and also prefer foods from their cultural background and that’s why they end up with the heavily curry restaurants. People with religious diet restrictions can be picky and/or inconsiderate just like anyone else.

        5. Princess Pumpkin Spice*

          You know what would tick me off? Having a new coworker come in and unilaterally decide that we will now, forever, only go to one restaurant that serves food I can’t eat.

          I, personally, have a coconut allergy. Curry is something I just blanket avoid, for obvious reasons. While I know there are some that don’t use coconut milk, the handful of times I’ve felt risky and tried one I still got sick. So I do think the brand new coworker should offer some kind of explanation.

          1. The James Beard Award for common sense*

            Absolutely, Princess. Thank you.

            The solution to this “problem” is to occasionally go to the curry house, but the rest of the time to keep going to the lovely steakhouses and Chinese restaurants. Most of them can prepare vegetarian dishes or what not, and if the new coworker’s diet is *that* specialized — well, is 2024, and the company can pay for a special Uber Eats delivery of whatever glatt kosher, halal, or Jain meal the new coworker needs.

            I also passionately disagree with Alison that the point of these gatherings isn’t the food. It’s very much the point. Human beings break bread over food. The high quality food not only lubricates conversation but incentivizes people to turn up in the first place. Anyone who has ever run an event knows this.

            Dietary restrictions should be accommodated in a reasonable way and to a point. Demanding that other employees give up an important perk is wholly unreasonable, particularly when less intrusive solutions exist, like Uber Eats.

            We need to get away from this idea that the majority must accommodate *every* quirk, no matter how unreasonable or intrusive.

          2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            There are very few Indian curries that use coconut milk, and “curry house” implies Indian; it’s Thai where coconut milk is more common.

        6. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Hmmm, that’s the one area where I had a bit of side eye for the co-worker. It’s difficult to believe that curry is truly the only option for them. Either it’s the easiest, which is fine until someone tells you they can’t tolerate it and then he needs to look for something else, or it’s his preference and he should compromise on that. If there is a reason it has to be curry, he should explain why, because I don’t think any religion requires the eating of curry. Offering to do some leg work and then let him vet the places seems reasonable. She is trying to bridge the gap. Not every dietary requirement is as complicated as strict kosher–for all we know, he just needs to eat vegetarian. He absolutely deserves to eat somewhere where his religious requirements are met, but he doesn’t deserve to eat curry because he likes it the best out of his available options.

        7. Broadway Duchess*

          And as someone who has a similar physical reaction to curries, including severe abdominal discomfort, I am ticked off that you would think your choice to follow a set of religious guidelines supercedes my non-voluntary physical discomfort. If I’ve been living with this difficulty as as your chosen religious practices, why do you think that’s more important than my body’s comfort?

    5. londonedit*

      I think the thing is that, in general, we in Britain love Indian food, so if there’s, say, a group of 10 people and one of them needs to stick to a Halal restaurant, and Indian is what works best, it’s likely that the other nine will enthusiastically agree to a curry house anyway. It’s quite rare to find someone like the OP who can’t find anything in an Indian restaurant that they’re willing to eat.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Its not the willingness to find something to eat. There is probably something she could eat. But like when they accomodated the GF folks. They didn’t pick a restaurant that had one boring GF option, there were choices. She wants to be treated the same way. Not as a oh just take the option even if it bland, boring and tasteless. She wants to be able to enjoy the meal just as much as everyone else. Because this isn’t a one time thing. This is going to happen every time the company eats out in this city, unless the dietary guy is willing to be open to other possibilities.

    6. Ferret*

      A lot of the time this isn’t enough though. I worked on a project where one of my colleagues kept Kosher in a way that meant he could only eat out a restaurants with a specific certification. We did do one team dinner that way but it was a bit of a trek from the office and the only alternative that was closer was a very fancy place that would have been over £100 a head. And this is in London…… Not sure what happened for other team events, some of them he would only stay for a drink. I know that when we did a work even involving an overnight stay and catering in a hotel he had to bring his own food and claim it back on expenses.

      1. CityMouse*

        I should note that I have specifically arranged halal meals because of a specific international initiative we work with. For whatever reason the food service company that supplies my building only provides halal meat on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so we instead provide vegetarian options those days. We do have a halal restaurant we can source from but for other reasons it’s not feasible some days.

        1. CityMouse*

          If someone’s strict kosher, we have never found an option that doesn’t involved individually packaged meals because the chance of someone messing up utensils is too high.

  4. Nodramalama*

    I’m struggling to picture a cuisine that only serves curry. Most cuisines I can think of with large curry menus like Indian, Thai, Malay have a lot of different kinds of food.

    Imo, it might not be your favourite meal, but if they’re already trying to accommodate multiple dietaries, someone is probably going to end up eating not their favourite food.

        1. UKDancer*

          Definitely. This strikes me as definitely a UK situation. London and other cities have a lot of curry houses which have a fairly limited range and do pretty much just curry and one bland and tasteless option for people who don’t eat it. The standard of cooking is usually fairly indifferent in these places but the food is cheap and highly spiced.

          There are other Indian, Thai etc restaurants which serve curry but also have a wider range of options. So my favourite Thai place does different types of Thai curry, stir fried noodle dishes and other dishes.

          1. londonedit*

            Most curry houses will have a wide range of Indian dishes, but they obviously will all be Indian dishes. They might do biryani (which is a rice dish with meat or veg) and they might do tandoori/grilled meats and fish, but the bulk of the dishes will definitely be curries of some sort (korma/masala/jalfrezi/dopiaza etc), and sides like saag paneer, chana masala, aloo gobi etc etc. So there is usually a wide range of different things available, but if the OP genuinely can’t tolerate any of the spices used in Indian food then they are going to be stuck with the embarrassing ‘English menu’ which is usually just omelettes and chips.

            To be honest, if I was them and this was just an occasional thing, I’d suck it up and have an omelette. People with dietary restrictions can usually only find one or two very limited options on a menu, so I think we can all suck it up now and then if someone needs to stick to a particular restaurant to meet their own needs. Presumably the OP can eat wherever they like the rest of the time.

            1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

              It’s a company paid treat though, where I’d expect to go to high-end restaurants that I can’t normally afford.
              I’d be fuming if a coworker’s restrictions – however genuine – meant I was reduced to eating egg & chips at a curry house.

              Let the coworker eat how he wants the rest of the time

              1. Ferret*

                “I’d be fuming if a coworker’s restrictions – however genuine – meant I was reduced to eating egg & chips at a curry house”. But what if going somewhere else meant that the colleague couldn’t eat at all? It’s possible that there are alternatives but if the choice is between a location where Person 1 only has bland options and another where Person 2 can’t eat at all it isn’t reasonable for Person 1 to be “fuming”.

              2. londonedit*

                Ah, well, in publishing you never get to go to high-end restaurants if the company is paying! So that’s not something I’m used to.

              3. Lightbourne Elite*

                “How he wants”

                I’m as atheist as they come but a religious restriction is more than “I eat how I want”.

              4. ferrina*

                That’s a strange take. You’re saying that the LW is entitled to eat how they want, but the coworker isn’t?

                1. The James Beard Award for common sense*

                  There a less restrictive means to accommodate the co-worker. The company can pay to have a special meal
                  delivered for him. And don’t give me excuses along the lines of “the restaurant won’t allow it”; if they’re earning good money from serving 20 people, they’ll accommodate one person bringing his own food.

                  If I were told that high-end corporate events were henceforth to be held only at a chipper, I would not go anymore.

              5. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

                What a sense of entitlement. People are disappointed sometimes. That does not translate into the right to fume at a co-worker for having a legitimate need that caused your disappointment.

            2. Dek*

              “People with dietary restrictions can usually only find one or two very limited options on a menu, so I think we can all suck it up now and then if someone needs to stick to a particular restaurant to meet their own needs”

              But as OP said, their company has specifically avoided that as an issue for as long as they’ve been doing this. This is supposed to be a *treat* not just a business dinner where you suck it up and eat the whatever.

              1. ferrina*

                It sounds like there is now a new accommodation that restricts the restaurants choice. And accommodations trump preferences (i.e., LW’s preference not to eat the bland option on the menu.

                That said, I’m side-eyeing the coworker for being unwilling to share exactly what the restriction is. It might be that this is the only restaurant that would possibly work; or it might be that this is what coworker prefers with their restriction, and they are refusing to share because they don’t want to consider alternate options. If the latter, then ideally coworker and LW would trade off being the person eating the bland dish (i.e., go to coworker’s restaurant this time, and go to another restaurant next time the LW enjoys while coworker has something bland).

          2. Flor*

            I didn’t even get the impression that it would necessarily be a cheap-and-cheerful type of curry house. My favourite restaurant when I lived in the UK was an award-winning Indian restaurant, but the vast majority of their menu (with the exception of steak + chips and omelette + chips) is spiced Indian dishes. Given that the OP is presumably not allergic to eating food cooked in a sauce or gravy, there’s a good chance that whatever it is about curry that they can’t tolerate is also in the tandoori salmon or chicken biryani.

      2. TechWorker*

        I don’t know where this LW is but in the U.K. as well as Indian restaurants that sell a wide variety of dishes there definitely are ones that sell primarily curry (plus the ‘can’t handle spice’ option of omelette and chips, which sounds similar to what LW is describing). They literally get referred to as ‘curry houses’.

      4. sheworkshardforthemoney*

        They do exist and for economy’s sake they stick to what they know. We have a small Thai Mom and Pop restaurant (now just Pop). The menu is small and it’s strictly Thai. The closest thing to non-Thai items are the soft drinks and tea.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      UK curry houses serve Indian based curries. The non curry option is likely to be a plate of chips (fries). Lovely chips though.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        If OP has an issue with the spice bases in the main meals, I would probably go with: garlic naan, poppadoms and mango chutney with some chips. But this assumes she can tolerate the airborne spices.

        1. metadata minion*

          That sounds like a delicious range of appetizers to start my meal with, but if I’m expecting to get a full meal I’d be annoyed.

      2. TechWorker*

        Lol your memory is different to mine, the chips at curry houses I used to go to were always terrible :)
        (I now eat curry so probs haven’t tried the chips in the last 15 years to be fair..)

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It is still going to smell of curry–wonderful to me, unfortunately nauseating to OP.

      I am hoping OP sees this and comes in with an update.

    5. Media Monkey*

      depends what you don’t like about curry. indian restaurants sell other things but all with similar spices (apart from the “English” dishes). so they aren’t all spicy or saucy but all will have similar types of spices to one degree or another!

  5. nnn*

    Another thing to consider in #1’s situation is whether there’s something else your company can do that will genuinely feel like just as much of a treat, but doesn’t require everyone to all eat at the same restaurant. Having some kind of catered event where you might have more control over the options you order from the caterers? Everyone ordering a doordash from their own preferred restaurant and then eating together? Something completely non-food-centric activity in the afternoon, with the assumption that people will fend for themselves for dinner afterwards?

    The right answer depends drastically on specifics we don’t have answers to so it’s unlikely anyone is going to arrive at the right solution in a comments section, but the point is to think about whether there’s something other than “let’s all eat dinner together in the same restaurant” that will meet the same needs.

    2. Media Monkey*

      or there are (less fancy so maybe less of a treat) multicuisine places where you can choose your what you want from sushi to pasta to indian. or i know places in the UK with pretty decent food court type set ups (like Westfield in London or St James’s Quarter in Edinburgh) so everyone can eat from a different place and sit together. might not work for people with very restrictive airbourne allergies or issues with smells however.

        1. Bella Ridley*

          What religious restrictions wouldn’t allow people to be in the vicinity of food they’re not eating?

          1. Ferret*

            It’s not about being in the vicinity it’s that I’ve never encountered one of these that had an actual Kosher or Jain kitchen – if someone has specific restrictions then just picking a vegetarian option might not work. “An awful lot” was probably going too far, and to be clear I think these places are great and work really well for group dining – but in the specific scenario in the letter I think it is unlikely to work

            1. Media Monkey*

              maybe not. but it’s an option to check out depending on what the actual restrictions are. which the new coworker has not allowed the LW to understand. not all religious restrictions are as strict as kosher/ jain.

        2. whimbrel*

          Or dietary ones tbh, if I was celiac or had other food allergies I’d for sure avoid food court/market style options. So much potential for cross-contamination.

    3. Artemesia*

      This is a lot better than making everyone eat crap food because of one person’s restrictions. Perhaps the hotel has a conference type room where people could eat door dash together.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        I agree that nnn’s idea seems good for LW1s situation but I don’t think it seems like the coworkers restaurant choice serves “crap food” just food LW can’t eat.

    4. Anat*

      That’s what I was thinking. Start doing takeout instead. That way coworker can order from the one restaurant he can eat at and everyone else can eat better. Or see if any of the restaurants will accept the religious co-worker bringing in outside food.

    5. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah, it may be that there are too many competing dietary restrictions for the team to go to a restaurant that pleases everyone. Something like takeout from everyone’s preferred cuisine that they eat in a conference room together might work, or maybe they just have to find team building activities that don’t involve food.

      1. sofar*

        Exactly my thoughts. I live near a major city with some of most (I’d argue THE MOST) diverse dining options in the country, and I’m coming up empty on ANY restaurant that would accommodate this group AND make everyone happy.

        Company needs to book a space, and everyone gets an Uber Eats gift card. If anyone makes a peep about eating in the proximity of an unallowed food (or food they don’t like the smell of), I’d give that major side-eye because how do they exist in an office environment EVER?

        Also, a nit to pick. LW seems to be in the UK maybe so maybe the word usage is different, but the blanket use of “curry” being a smell that makes her sick is … hmmmm…. I’ve had people swear up and down they “can’t stand” curry, but it’s really a dog-whistle for Indian food. The same people will remark on how delicious my Thai/Japanese curry smells when I bring it to work. And ask “What is that it looks so yummy?” when I pack the egg-based vegetarian curry from my husband’s family’s part of the world.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          It is possible to have an allergy so severe it causes problems if someone else is eating it. I have a particular food that I have that problem with, and it’s particularly bad in poorly-ventilated conference rooms or break rooms. (Restaurants tend to have higher ceilings and more air circulation, I think? It’s happened a few times in restaurants to the point where there are certain specific cuisines that I won’t go to restaurants for, but I stopped eating indoors in 2020 anyway, and eating outside has definitely been very helpful for allergy reasons in my case.)

          I have once had to stand up in a small, crowded conference room and ask that whoever had [x food] for lunch could please take their leftovers out to their car because my eyes and lungs were burning.

        2. JustaTech*

          But the LW also says that she has tried for years to find a curry that she likes, which doesn’t sound like a racist “I don’t like Indians so I don’t like Indian food” it sounds like a genuine “some ingredient I have not been able to identify that is common in these dishes makes me ill”.

          As someone with very limited spice tolerance, it sucks. There’s a lot of amazing smelling food I can’t eat because it hurts too much or makes me feel ill. There are restaurants near my work that I can’t eat at because they won’t serve any dish at a spice level I can tolerate. It’s an already frustrating situation (when you order a dish and then can’t eat it so you are both hungry and in pain), and to have people add on “ooh, I bet you’re actually racist” is just extra hurtful.

          I love the smell of curry! It smells amazing! All of them! But I can literally have two drops of Thai massaman curry on a forkful of white rice before my lips and throat and tongue burn. And I have enough culinary knowledge to know that a true curry *can’t* be made any less spicy because then all the flavors would be out of balance. So I don’t ever ask, because I know the answer is no.

    6. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      This was my thought also, that a group restaurant outing isn’t an appropriate treat for this team.

    7. DrSalty*

      This is what I was thinking. They should just bring in take out from a bunch of different places, or alternate that with the curry house.

  6. Sally*

    With OP1, I feel like the problem isn’t just dietary, but the fact that the coworker is being so dismissive of OP1’s needs. Surely this would go better if they could discuss and maybe find a compromise (or ask the restaurant if they would allow outside food, etc). It almost sounds like the coworker is taking out their anger from years of getting their dietary needs ignored, but it seems like it’s setting up a hostile team dynamic. Maybe there is a neutral organizer who can help mediate.

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t know about that – I think needing a particular sort of restaurant for religious reasons trumps ‘I don’t like Indian food’. Of course it would be good if there could be more of a compromise, but if it comes down to it, the co-worker’s religious requirements are more important than the OP just not liking anything on offer.

    2. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Exactly. It seems like this has come to a showdown. My dietary requirements are more important that yours. Who is gong to win in the end? Life threatening allergies or religious requirements? Both matter and should be respected but a compromise needs to be made to accommodate both parties.

      1. Christina*

        Well, to be fair, LW didn’t say they had “life-threatening allergies.” They said they got sick from eating curry a few times and now don’t like the smell, and don’t want to eat the bland non-curry alternative they’d be served. I’m an atheist, but religious dietary requirements do seem a higher priority than “my food will be bland” or “I don’t like the smell.” That being said, new co-worker doesn’t seem to be trying very hard to find a solution that will work for everyone, and that doesn’t bode well for collegial team spirit at these things. lol

    3. The Coolest Clown Around*

      It seems like both coworkers are feeling defensive about potentially not getting their needs met – which is reasonable! – and so they’re both feeling more adversarial than they otherwise might. It’s hard to be the new kid on the block and then immediately be made to feel like the “difficult” person who’s “ruining” something for everyone else, and it’s also hard to feel like a morale-building privilege is being permanently taken away from just you. I see some other commenters saying OP should just suck it up even if they don’t like it, but I think that misses part of the point of the exercise, since this is intended to be a positive experience for everyone. It seems like the business has just finally reached that critical mass of food restrictions where it might not be possible for everyone to happily eat together and so it’s time to start getting creative with takeout/catering/separate eating but a different morale-builder.

      2. Jackalope*

        I think is a really kind and insightful comment. Neither person is having their food limitations AT the other person, but this is a “dueling accommodations” issue (quote marks because this isn’t the same type of issue as reasonable accommodations but it has similar factors to consider) and it may be tricky to resolve in a way that works for both people. Recognizing that both of them have an important reason that the other person’s usual solutions don’t work AND recognizing that both should be considered when finding a solution is important to making sure that the end result is less likely to cause frustration or bitterness. I hope the OP’s employer found a way to make this work for everyone, either by going with a third restaurant option, or by choosing another way to bond (the takeout or non-food options you mentioned).

    4. mcm*

      Yes, this was my thought as well. Even if it is the only restaurant or type of restaurant the coworker can eat at, it seems like the reasonable approach would be to explain what the restriction is and let OP take a look. OP may well mind that there are no other options, but refusing to explain or let anyone else look for a restaurant does make it come across like the coworker is maybe not being honest, and is at the very least not being a good sport about the difficult task of finding a restaurant that works for everyone.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes! Maybe the OP would feel better about the sad omelet if they had *also* looked and determined that no, really, this is the *only* place where Coworker can eat.

        But gosh I hope they can find an alternative that at least has a salad?

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I agree. And I would find it odd that the OP was the only one who didn’t want to go to a curry place. Even if you don’t have any issues with the food, some people just won’t like it.

      I know this is an old letter, but I hope OP was able to get to a compromise. I wish that the other person said what the religious accommodations were. From my experience most people will be open with what they can and can’t have. I feel like this person is just trying to control everything.

  7. DeskApple*

    simple solution for#1 is to rent a fun venue for the evening and order everyone’s different food in.

  8. GammaGirl1908*

    For 5, you **should** be talking things over with your spouse! Your finances and hours and benefits/insurance and travel and responsibilities affect the whole household.

    Unless you and Spouse agreed ahead of time on acceptable thresholds (like, “the job parameters are otherwise good, and as long as they offer 1XX,XXX or more, go for it”), assessing the family situation should be downright **necessary.**

    1. Nocturna*

      Sure, but not everything you do within your family needs to be (or should be) communicated to your potential employer.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        As GammaGirl says, you discuss with your partner (and perhaps any other affected adults) whether the changes offered by a new position make sense. If an employer feigned shock at being told that a prospective employee needed to discuss the terms of the job with a spouse who would be affected, I’d view that as a red flag.

        You don’t need to go into the precise details of what would or would not be an issue–but if you do, it should be in the sense of “I’m presenting the problems I have identified and would welcome solutions.”

        As with sick leave:
        “I am taking a sick day” = fine
        “I have the flu and will probably be out at least three days” = fine
        “I have the flu and will now graphically describe my symptoms” = TMI

        1. Archi-detect*

          heck, I could see discussion with a teenager too in terms of how much a potential move would effect them. Probably not to yhe point of veto power, but I would at least consider it

          1. Polaris*

            Definitely, especially if they’re approaching college aged. At least when I was attending school…there was a not-all-that obvious set of requirements for residency. It was easier to lose residency (for in-state tuition) than it was to gain it. I’d want to know if I was damning my teenager to out-of-state tuition no matter where they went with a move during their junior or senior years of high school.

      2. Apex Mountain*

        Not everything, but saying “I’d like to discuss the offer with my spouse/family” if extremely normal and common – I wouldn’t bat an eye if a candidate said that to me

    2. Susan Calvin*

      That’s really not the point though, as Alison’s answer makes clear. What’s necessary for you to DO and what’s necessary for you to TELL are overlapping but very much not the same!

      1. AngryOctopus*

        This. “I need a few days to think it over” is fine, normal, and shouldn’t raise any eyebrows (unless they specifically told you they have an earlier deadline that cannot be moved). Whether you use that time to discuss with your spouse, your dogs, or to plug numbers into an elaborate spreadsheet which details how soon you can retire to the Scottish Hebrides doesn’t matter.

        1. Apex Mountain*

          “I need a few days to think it over and discuss with the family” shouldn’t raise eyebrows either though – I’ve said similar, and have had it said to me by candidates – I think when you’re moving jobs and taking into account things like health insurance which can affect spouse/kids etc it’s completely normal.

        3. Area Woman*

          Ahh this is so funny, my husband has so many elaborate spreadsheets…. and we have talked of spending part of retirement in Scotland…. love it.

      2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        The only time I’d specifically mention a spouse is if you need an unusually long time as a result. “I’d like to talk it over with my spouse, but they’re on travel many timezones away so we can’t talk until next Tuesday” would be a useful explanation for why someone is asking for a longer-than-usual time to decide, IMO.

    1. TM*

      Or, because it’s an occasional thing, the LW could simply suck it up, I mean, I don’t eat red meat, but if my colleagues wanted to go to a steakhouse, fine, I’ll eat some chips/fries on that occasion. And then scope out their flexibility re other options in future. But if it meant I had to eat a fries-only meal a few times a year, it’s honestly no big deal. After all, they’re not paying.

      If they go to the place that the colleague found and there truly is nothing edible for the LW (or the options are as dire as they expected), then, sure, it’s perfectly reasonable to try and get some more clarity about everyone’s needs. And if you’re not all confrontational/defensive about it, having a constructive conversation face to face may be a lot easier.

      1. londonedit*

        Totally agree. As someone who doesn’t eat meat, my menu options are usually fairly limited (even if you go to a pub, there’s usually only one, maybe two, veggie/vegan options on the menu), so I’m used to not being able to have a whole lot of choice all the time. If it’s my choice of restaurant, great, but if not then I just see what’s there and make the best of it.

        If the OP genuinely can’t tolerate even being in an Indian restaurant because of the smell of the spices, then they should definitely politely raise that and ask whether there could be a compromise on the type of restaurant they all go to (if it’s a Halal issue, for example, then a lot of Turkish or Moroccan restaurants in UK cities will be Halal as a matter of course). But otherwise, really, I think if everyone else in the group is happy with Indian then the OP should just try to find something on the menu they can eat. If it’s a tasteless omelette and chips, no, it’s not ideal, but it’s not like it’s every day.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        I wouldn’t suck it up. I just wouldn’t bother going – and I suspect I wouldn’t be the only one to resent the hell out of the coworker who ended our company paid treat.

        1. Archi-detect*

          right, that the other thing- it went from a paid treat going to different restaurants each time to always going to that specific curry place.

      3. sparkle emoji*

        Yeah, if LW can go and try a non-curry option the one time, do that. If it becomes the only place the team goes then that’s an issue but a good faith try will make it easier to push back.

        1. Dek*

          But if the coworker lets OP know what his requirements are, then OP can check the menus of restaurants that fit those in advance and see if there’s any better options.

          It’s hard to expect OP to act in good faith when the coworker is being so close about it.

      4. The James Beard Award for common sense*

        The LW can reasonably asked to “suck it up” on a few occasions — not for every single company dinner. The co-worker should do some sucking up, too.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes. Also, only curry? Sounds v unlikely.
      I’d suspect that is restrictions + personal preference: He wants to be able to eat familiar food and enjoy almost any dish on the menu.
      He should state his restrictions and discuss with the group all the other possibilities rather than just saying everyone has to suck it up and eat where he decides.

      Even if someone is genuinely seriously restricted, nowhere I’ve worked would let one person decide where we eat every time, unless most of the others liked it too.

      If I was reduced to a curry house for a company-paid treat, after we used to have say steak & lobster & posh wine at high end restaurants, I’d be totally pissed off with him.
      It would be the opposite of team-building and I probably wouldn’t bother going.

      1. Ferret*

        Very unlikely? I can easily imagine that the only Jain compliant restaurants in a city are curry places or only serve Indian food in general

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          Then rotate so everyone chooses the restaurant in turn and when it’s not his turn he can just have drinks if he can’t eat salad.

          Fortunately I’ve never worked anywhere that would allow one person to restrict us to restaurants that only serve 1 kind of (not very popular) food.

          1. Ferret*

            I think a rotation would be a great idea. I don’t know why you are so angry about this though. And (coming from the UK) the idea that curry/south asian food in general is “not very popular” would be bizarre

            1. Anonymous for this*

              OP makes it clear that the smell of curry is nauseating. Alternating when one of the alternates is a curry house is therefore a complete nonstarter for OP.

              1. Ferret*

                But the alternate options might be a complete non-starter for their colleague. Which is the point, if two people have conflicting requirements (and they might not! there might actually be a compromise and hopefully LW was able to follow up and find one, or use one of the other suggestions people have offered) then switching between the two seems like a reasonable option?

                1. Anonymous for this*

                  But if OP is physically incapable of sitting through a meal at a curry house then switching between the two isn’t a compromise: it literally isn’t an option for OP. There may be a solution, but spending the evening by herself while her colleagues are treated to an expensive meal at a restaurant isn’t it.

                2. Ferret*

                  Replying to myself here since I think we have reached the end of the comment tree and I can’t reply directly to Anonymous for this at 8:11.

                  My point is that it if it is the case that the alternatives that would work for OP would have absolutely nothing the colleague could eat, if anywhere you would pick means that one person can’t eat anything, you should try and make it so that the burden doesn’t fall entirely on one person.

                  Ideally of course there should be an option that doesn’t impose a burden on anyone but I was discussing that specific scenario

                3. Anonymous for this*

                  I understand. In this case, I think ordering food or doing something else entirely is the only viable option.

              2. The James Beard Award for common sense*

                OP can skip the month they do the curry house, or order something from Uber Eats and bring her own dinner.

                Co-worker can do the same when they go to a steakhouse.

                Problem solved in a way that’s not always “me me me.”

            2. Media Monkey*

              agreed. i would say that 90% of people in the UK would be able to eat in a curry house – it’s such a popular cuisine here. doesn’t help the LW who clearly can’t though.

    3. Ferret*

      Would you have the same reaction if there was only one place someone could eat for medical reasons? Even if LW and the colleague have competing restrictions the best option might be to alternate restaurants between them, or to try a solution that involves ordering in food or a non-eating activity

    4. Jennifer Strange*

      It doesn’t say he can only eat at one restaurant, it says that all of the restaurants he can eat at happen to serve curry.

    5. Ccbac*

      Quite frankly, those who cannot read carefully should stay out of the comment section.

      The letter does not state that the new coworker can only eat at one restaurant, but that there is one genre of restaurant that would accommodate the dietary needs of the new coworker AND the other existing coworkers who also have dietary restrictions.

      Interestingly, it seems Op#1 has never thought to mention their aversion to curry and places that smell like curry as a dietary restriction with their work place….

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Ooooh, that is a good point! I just re-read, and it is clear that he was looking at restaurants that would cater to everyone who has a disclosed* dietary restriction, not just himself.

        *I say “disclosed” because it’s unclear if the LW had previously mentioned their issues with curry AND it’s unclear if they’ve specified to him how debilitating it is (rather than just “I don’t like curry)

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Interestingly, it seems Op#1 has never thought to mention their aversion to curry and places that smell like curry as a dietary restriction with their work place….

        Quae?

        I’m solidly mid-career, and I’ve never had a peer introduce themselves along the lines of “Good afternoon; my name is Hannibal Barca and I’m allergic to shellfish.” It only ever has come out when it becomes germane to the situation at hand–“hey, Hannibal; care to join us for lunch at Red Lobster this afternoon?” “Sorry; I can’t stomach the place due to allergies. How about Chuy’s?”

    6. Sunshine*

      It sounds like these were the only restaurants that could meet his religious restrictions, while also accommodating other team members’ requirements like gluten-free diets.

      But even if there were truly no restaurants that could serve everyone, a better solution would be to find other alternatives such as takeout or non-food events, or even rotating restaurants, rather than just saying “too bad, stay home” to the same employee every time.

  10. Turingtested*

    I think LW 1 is in such a tricky spot. Ideally, her and her coworker could sit down and figure out options that work for both of them, but that involves disclosing medical and religious practices and I can see why they’re reluctant.

    It does seem like her coworker is being inflexible but we don’t know what specific dietary restrictions he has.

    I know it’s an old letter, but I think this is a situation for a discussion with a boss/supervisor at work.

    FWIW, I’ve worked with vegans, vegetarians, people who practiced various religious dietary restrictions, people with severe food allergies and people with sensitivities and not a single one insisted on only one restaurant. Sometimes it took a bit of effort to accommodate all and keep them happy but it was done.

  11. Ontari-oh-no!*

    I feel for OP1. I have a very, very low tolerance for the smell of curry but live in a city where it’s becoming increasingly pervasive. Restaurants, streets, my workplace… It’s difficult even to find an apartment that doesn’t smell of curry long after its previous occupants have moved on. I honestly don’t know what to do.

    1. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Personally, I love curry having grown up in a house where pepper was considered spicy. But curry can be very pervasive and lingering. Because of the spice combinations it can induce headaches. Allergies are real. My friend lived above a lovely Indian family and she had to keep a window open all the time because the smells were overwhelming. Based on your user name I think I know what city you live in and it’s a real issue that can’t be addressed without being accused of being intolerant.

      1. Lightbourne Elite*

        How do you propose anyone address it? I am absolutely serious, what solution do you see that is not, in fact, intolerant?

        1. The Coolest Clown Around*

          There may not be very much that anyone can do, but Ontari-oh-no! is expressing a real frustration with something that makes them feel sick, and a lot of basic remediations (covering one’s nose and mouth, opening windows, etc) are considered rude in most contexts, which is also frustrating. If this was someone with a soy allergy expressing irritation with how much more prevalent it has become in food products, you wouldn’t be telling them to just get used to it, even if that’s ultimately what they’re going to have to do.

    3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      I spent a while deciding whether or not to reply to this, because in my local political climate this feels likely to be a dog-whistle, but I’m going to take it at face value here.
      White vinegar in a spray bottle can work miracles with food odors. If it’s really intense in a new apartment, you may need to spray (or scrub, if feasible) all the surfaces with white vinegar until damp and then let them air dry. Repeat if necessary. Unfinished wood (like inside cabinets) may still release a smell when it gets humid, so you might need a dehumidifier in the area (ask for permission to paint it). Getting the whole apartment painted might also be an option.
      Also, recognize that these issues aren’t unique to curry, even if they are for you. Moving in after smokers is a nightmare, even if they were careful to only smoke outside. Or people who regularly wear scent – my bathroom still smells like the previous owner’s cologne after every shower, five years later.
      Out and about, wearing a mask really helps! But you may still need to plan around your scent sensitivity. I can’t even walk past the candle store at the local shopping center, so anything I want from the other stores there needs to be ordered online and shipped to me. And when packages are delivered by the backup postal worker who wears a strong scent, I usually end up opening them outside and letting them air out on a covered porch overnight.

      1. Ontari-oh-no!*

        I really appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt and providing such a helpful response. I’ll be sure to use your vinegar solution if the problem arises again (it’s not a problem where I am now but that seems to be very much the exception).

      2. Sunshine*

        I had really good results bleaching the entire shower, when I moved in after an apparent bathroom smoker. Vinegar worked wonders in the rest of the apartment, but I did end up needing bleach in the shower. That might help with the cologne problem if you are willing to use bleach.

  12. OP3 2018*

    Hello! I was OP3 back in the heady days of 2018.
    This was a bit of a trip down memory lane for me. As it may not surprise many people to know, I have since received a diagnosis of ADHD – but not before it had such a big impact it did, in fact, cause me to lose the job I was writing from in this letter.
    I know advice is conflicting about whether or not to declare ADHD in a workplace environment but I have found it to be a gamechanger in terms of being able to explain that I have to put layers of structures in place to stay organised – and understanding in myself that occasionally something will slip through them, but that happens to everyone and that doesn’t make me broken or a failure. If you’re just disorganised, you’re expected to have dealt with that by the time you reach adulthood. If you have ADHD, and you explain that you have ways of working that mitigate that for you and 99% of the time they work but you know what to improve on and fix when occasionally they don’t, that feels a lot more understood.
    I do feel like I have to create several hundred steps and processes to do what neurotypical people just… do… and that can feel exhausting. But having and being open about my diagnosis has definitely been a net positive for me and my colleagues and managers.

  13. Ferret*

    The comments aren’t quite as bad as originally but it’s a bit depressing to see a repeat of the issues that came up the firs time #1 was posted. People assuming they know what the religious restrictions are and that they can be solved by just going vegetarian, people not knowing what a curry house is, people making assumptions about how serious LW’s issues are and whether they will be ill if they just enter the place or not.

    The letter isn’t 100% clear on all details, which is totally fine, but I sometimes wish internet commenters in general would be a bit less confident about the feasibility of their suggestions and the assumptions going into them

    1. londonedit*

      I can forgive the curry house thing, because until I read this letter and its responses the first time I had no idea that the concept of a curry house is alien to people outside of the UK.

      Agree that people shouldn’t be assuming, but there aren’t really that many details in the letter, so I don’t think it’s fair to knock people for saying ‘If it’s this, you could do that’.

      1. Ferret*

        I think I might have been set off a bit by the original comments – Alison tried to deal with them but they got really bad. If I never have to hear someone say that any place with a vegetarian option will work for people who keep Kosher it will be too soon

      2. No creative name yet*

        I’ll admit as an American I was pretty confused by the letter! We have lots of South Asian restaurants but don’t refer to food as “curry” as broadly as it seems is done in the UK from what I’ve gathered.

        1. Media Monkey*

          in the UK “curry” (or Indian) is general a catch-all for all types of indian/ pakistani/ bangladeshi dishes. this would include things like tikka and shashlik that are dry tandoori dishes (very many of the Uk’s indian restaurants will serve tandoori). there’s is an excellent sketch from a comedy show called Goodness Gracious Me (which had a cast of south asian comedians) called “going out for an English”, a parody of british people going out for an indian.

      3. The James Beard Award for common sense*

        The concept of a curry house is not alien to people outside the UK. There is one five minutes from me here in Tucson.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      My parents loved a specific Italian restaurant near my childhood home. Simply mad about it. Every time my grandparents kept us kids so they could have a date night, that was their destination of choice.

      Their signature menu item was a stuffed mushroom appetizer the size of a frisbee. I wish I were making that up.

      Being allergic to mushrooms, I was always ill any time we went there. As I got older, the allergy has gotten worse, and by the time I was a teenager, just walking past their front door could induce vomiting from the smells. It’s not Italian–I love Italian, both authentic and American Italian–it was the mushrooms with garlic in olive oil scent that permeated the place. So I have zero doubt about LW1’s claims that the scent of curry would make her nauseous.

      If it were me, I’d simply no-call no-show to the event, and sort it out afterwards with Management or whomever missed my presence, with my refusal to be anywhere near it already etched in stone by my previous actions.

      The restaurant went out and has turned over a few times. It’s a hockey supply shop now. Even the locker-room scent (they sell both new and preowned items) competes with but doesn’t completely block out the mushroom scent 25 years later.

      1. The James Beard Award for common sense*

        Calling no-show works once, but they have these dinners regularly. And no one else wants every single one of them to be curry.

    3. Green great dragon*

      I don’t see anyone saying they know what the restrictions are, on either side. People are saying, for example, that if the restrictions are due to halal/kosher then this might be a solution and so it would be helpful if coworker would share more detail. Since the co-worker isn’t sharing any details of what the restrictions are, we don’t know they won’t be solved by going vegetarian/vegan elsewhere either.

      Yes, normally no-one has any right to the details of a co-workers religious practices. But they’re impacting OP, so it’s reasonable to ask for more details of the requirements so they can discuss further what might work for both of them.

    4. Apex Mountain*

      I hear you but this could be said about pretty much any letter here. We’ll never know all the details so we’re just trying to give suggestions. They may or may not work but that’s true in many examples

    5. CityMouse*

      I’m probably one of the people you’re complaining about, but I actually have experience arranging for dietary restrictions from visitors from a variety of countries. So I do actually have a basis for “how do we accommodate multiple religious restrictions” because I’ve actually done it.

    6. I NEED A Tea!*

      I work with people who won’t eat pork, others who won’t eat onions or garlic, others who are vegetarian, as well as some omnivores. It’s tricky but I can make it work because everyone is up front about their dietary restrictions, so it’s unfortunate that OP’s new coworker isn’t clear about his requirements. I think the only option for OP’s group is to order food in (and I believe this was already suggested).

      1. Lightbourne Elite*

        We don’t know that he isn’t clear about his requirements, he just didn’t explain them in detail to OP.

        1. I NEED A Tea!*

          Alison said he was refusing to share his requirements, but you could be correct maybe he didn’t share them with her.

  14. Zuzu*

    LW1, as someone who keeps kosher (and can’t eat just vegetarian in a non kosher restaurant) I wouldn’t expect a large group of coworkers to always go to a kosher restaurant just for me (although it would be nice if it were part of the rotation) In the business world it’s common for Orthodox Jews to order meals from a kosher restaurant and have it delivered to the non kosher restaurant where they’re eating with their colleagues. The meal is delivered sealed and the diner opens it themselves. Personally I am not in the business world but I have had to do this at weddings and my friends and family members have never had a problem ordering these extra meals for me.
    It sounds like this colleague isn’t keeping kosher but has a similar type of restriction and perhaps this could be a solution.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      That sounds a great solution. Everyone gets what they want and noone resents the restricted coworker.

        1. Empress Ki*

          Yep. I never heard of a restaurant doing that.
          I wonder if they charge a fee to let you eat food from outside.
          What I am more familiar with is BYOB : Restaurants that don’t sell alcohol but let you bring a bottle, generally against a small fee as your use their glasses and their premises.

          1. MsM*

            Maybe it’s more common in communities with a significant Orthodox Jewish population. (Although I’ve lived in a couple of those, and I can’t say I ever encountered it. Mostly people seemed to stick to kosher restaurants, cooked for themselves, or just ordered vegetarian dishes and handwaved any potential contamination while eating out.)

            1. Zuzu*

              It’s common only in the sense that it’s a common solution to the problem of being an Orthodox Jew who needs to dine out for business reasons. It’s not common at all for people to do this when hanging out with friends. Sorry for the confusion!

        2. Zuzu*

          On the contrary! Restaurants that are aware of this custom and agree to accommodate it know they’re getting 20 people to order meals because they’ve accommodated the one person who needs to order an outside kosher (halal, Jain) meal. If they don’t accommodate it, the 20 other people will go elsewhere. It’s a win win.

        3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I think it really depends on the resturant. And if its one person out of a large group I don’t see why they would have an issue. There’s not going to be any worries about cross contamination because the person would be using their own silverware, container etc.

          I’ve made a reservation at a steak place and was able to bring the birthday cake from a bakery.

    3. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      I was at a wedding and one family did that. It saved the bride and groom so much worry about making sure the kosher food requirement was respected and prepared properly. It was done with no fanfare. I only knew because my daughter was a member of the wedding party and filled me on later on many of the behind scenes actions.

    4. The James Beard Award for common sense*

      “In the business world it’s common for Orthodox Jews to order meals from a kosher restaurant and have it delivered to the non kosher restaurant where they’re eating with their colleagues.“

      OMG someone else came up with the solution!

  15. Apex Mountain*

    In #1, maybe it’s time to mix up activities if this is going to be an ongoing issue. They don’t always have to revolve around food.

    Search the archives for suggestions on team building, work events, etc..

  16. Blue Pen*

    For #1, I don’t know if it’s fair to say—I don’t mean to be snarky—but I hope they remember this experience when they come across others in the workplace (and in life) with different dietary needs and restrictions. It’s not fun to be relegated to eating the dull, lifeless, cobbled-together “meal” when everyone else gets to partake and enjoy. Think if you had to do that for all/most meals with your colleagues.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      It’s also not fun if every time his other colleagues get relegated to eating the dull lifeless omelette & chips that are typically the only non-curry dish at a curry house (very downmarket and smelly) rather than enjoying a high end restaurant)

      Could rotate so every chooses in turn and noone is relegated/deprived every meal.

      but best option imo is to let everyone order in food – and drink – from their preferred restaurant. Then everyone is happy every time.

      1. Ferret*

        A curry house is automatically “very downmarket”? Wow. Not sure why you are also assuming that the restriction to blander food applies to anyone other than LW1?

        1. UKDancer*

          Err they usually are downmarket in my experience. There are upmarket Indian restaurants but I wouldn’t call them a curry house. So for example in London there’s a very upmarket restaurant called Cinnamon Club which I would emphatically not call a curry house and which serves a range of Indian and fusion food and is very popular with MPs. There is also a chain called Dishoom which again I wouldn’t call a curry house (and does an amazingly good bacon naan breakfast roll).

          For me, if you’re talking about a curry house then you’re implying somewhere that’s not very upmarket and is more on a parr with a greasy spoon with a more limited menu. But obviously understandings of restaurant types may vary.

          2. Flor*

            But the OP didn’t call them curry houses, either! They said, “Except the only restaurants which he claims will work are ones which serve curry.” That could easily include, if not as high-end as Cinnamon Club, some very nice Indian and Bangladeshi restaurants.

      2. londonedit*

        Let’s not get into ‘curry houses are downmarket and smelly’ territory, eh? There are very nice Indian restaurants in cities across the UK!

        1. londonedit*

          (And for those in the US who may not grasp the cultural nuance, this is skirting dangerously close to someone saying something along the lines of ‘I wouldn’t go to one of those Black-owned restaurants, they’re so downmarket and all that fried chicken stinks’.)

        3. doreen*

          I’m in the US so I’m sure I don’t understand all the nuances – and maybe I’m misunderstanding “downmarket” (which I think mean something like less expensive/prestigious ) but I’m not sure how calling a curry house “downmarket” would be different from calling a pizzeria “downmarket” . Isn’t only a certain type of Indian restaurant that’s called a “curry house”? “Smelly” is a different issue.

          1. londonedit*

            A lot of people use ‘curry house’ and ‘Indian restaurant’ interchangeably here. Trust me when I say this sounds like a dogwhistle.

          2. sparkle emoji*

            From the UK people I’ve know I’d guess there’s a level of classism in the “downmarket” term that won’t scan to USians. Seems like “downmarket” goes beyond just “less prestigious or expensive” and more towards “cheap/seedy”? Open to being wrong but that’s how I’d understand the distinction.

            1. sparkle emoji*

              (not saying people from the UK are more classist than US people, just that how it’s discussed is different)

          3. metadata minion*

            Even with your pizzeria example, there are lots of hole-in-the-wall cheap places, but also high-end ones.

            The LW doesn’t even say that these restaurants *only* serve curry, just that they serve curry. And if it’s the smell of curry spices that’s the problem, a very fancy Indian place will still smell like curry.

        4. Lexi Vipond*

          There are very nice seafood restaurants in cities across the UK, and yet ordinary fish and chip shops are still downmarket and smelly. (Tasty, too.)

      3. Ccbac*

        wild to assume a curry restaurant is “down market” and if the choice is op has to eat “bland things” or op’s coworkers don’t get to eat at all, that really shouldn’t be a choice for a decent person.

      4. Lightbourne Elite*

        I like how you decided the letter must be referring to a curry house and have now run with the chance to be both furious and openly bigoted about it.

      5. xylocopa*

        Letter doesn’t say anything about a “curry house,” or about being “downmarket.” Those are things that readers have invented for commentary, and the automatic assumption that it’s somewhere “downmarket and smelly” is pretty uncomfortable.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      The letter literally said that for the GF folks they found places with lots of options so they could have a choice. So OP has experience making sure those with dietary restrictions feel included and not just a burden who has to take whatever they can find on the menu.

  17. Shapester*

    If, for the sake of argument, a coworker could only eat kosher or halal, would her colleagues have any standing to push back if they were strongly opposed to eating at—or even tacitly supporting through their presence—a restaurant that specialized in serving the meat of ritually slaughtered animals?

      1. Ferret*

        I don’t know about the legal specifics. But given how many misconceptions there are around the production of Halal and Kosher meat I would be a bit sceptical of a claim like that, which is probably unfair of me.

        1. UKDancer*

          My understanding is that many in the Sikh religion refuse to eat animals killed in the halal tradition so at least one of my Sikh colleagues is unwilling to go to restaurants that serve exclusively halal meat. This has been part of discussion and negotiation around where we eat, which varies depending on the composition of the team and the needs of individuals. I find we talk about stuff, we find a place that people are ok with and we vary where we go.

          1. Shapester*

            Interesting. In practice, does this mean that Muslim and Sikh colleagues have to take turns “going without”?

            1. UKDancer*

              Well usually we wound up going for fish and chips because there was a really good chippie near the office and everyone had a deep addiction to cod and chips. Sometimes we’d go to somewhere that did both halal and non halal meat (at least one burger place and one pizzeria had that approach) but the chippie did a lot of business out of us. I don’t know it kind of worked in that team.

              We’re a lot more spread out and meet up less often now we are working more remotely so it’s not arisen lately.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  I often ask if I can get fish & chips at a new restaurant when someone asks me to go. If the letter truly is UK as suspected and I were LW1 or one of the peers, that’d totally be my suggestion.

                2. The James Beard Award for common sense*

                  God I would just love the see the reaction if you told City people they had to have their closing dinner celebration at a chippy.

        2. CityMouse*

          No, it’s straight up prohibited in certain religions to eat Halal or Kosher meats. That’s not a misconception, it has to do with differing religious requirements on butchery.

            1. CityMouse*

              When you have a big international group meat gets complicated fast and going vegetarian usually gets you about 90% of the way there. So that’s why event planners often do that.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      I think that would be staggeringly adversarial and a weird way of deliberately targeting those religions for their meat eating practices. I’ve never encountered ethical vegans or vegetarians who would find it appropriate to comment on the ethics of their meat eating colleagues and anyone who doesn’t like the combination of religion and meat eating, should follow their example there. Keep your food politics out of the workplace, and your religious ones even more so.

      1. Shapester*

        I think the only thing adversarial is your response! I’m not asking about anyone “targeting” anyone else’s religion—I’m asking whether it would be appropriate for a group to push back against being forced to choose between a restaurant that serves kosher- or halal-only food or having to excuse themselves from participating in such events on ethical grounds.

        1. Socks*

          Their answer is clearly “no, it wouldn’t be appropriate,” and I think the comparison to ethical vegans and vegetarians is a good one — if a group of vegans at an office pushed back against the team going to any restaurant that served animal products, it would go over like a lead balloon.

          Also, frankly, “No, I don’t have any issue with Jewish people and Muslims! I just categorically refuse to set foot in restaurants where they can eat and would like to push to exclude them from team meals,” is not a tremendously convincing statement.

          1. Shapester*

            Also, frankly, “No, I don’t have any issue with Jewish people and Muslims! I just categorically refuse to set foot in restaurants where they can eat and would like to push to exclude them from team meals,” is not a tremendously convincing statement.

            Thankfully it isn’t even remotely similar to any statement made by anyone in this thread.

            1. Socks*

              Sorry, that was unnecessarily harsh phrasing. That said, excluding them from team meals IS the effect of pushing back against going to kosher or halal restaurants. That may not be the primary goal, but the impact on the religious-minority coworkers is the same.

              1. Socks*

                And, look, I say this as a vegetarian: the correct response to your team wanting to eat at a restaurant where you have ethical objections to the meat is to go to the restaurant and not eat the meat.

    3. metadata minion*

      See if you can find a vegetarian kosher place? Vegetarian kosher Chinese restaurants are kind of a staple in my area, because then everything can be parve since Chinese food doesn’t involve a lot of dairy anyway.

    4. ferrina*

      Accommodations generally stop at your own plate. You are entitled to have food that you can eat. You are not entitled to dictate what or where others can eat. This gets really close to policing other people’s food choices.

      You could ask to go to a vegetarian place (depending where you live, it may be very doable to find a veg kosher/halal restaurant). But if the answer is no, you need to be able to respect that.

      And absolutely do not make this about being kosher/halal and “ritually slaughtered animals”. That makes it sound like you are against the religious practice, which is discrimination. (Side note- kosher/halal practices are much more respectful to animals than corporate commercial butchery).

  18. Artemesia*

    Oh yeah NEVER discuss the internet blocking software. Why would you shoot yourself in the foot like that. Instead you talk about some new organizational habits you have instituted — you read about some ways to streamline your organizing — maybe you are making new kinds of lists. Be vague but make it about changing your work habits not your time wasting internet scrolling. That image will be indelible if you mention it.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d avoid even mentioning time management, to avoid the implication of previously wasting time in some way.
      Instead, I’d talk about standardising & streamlining methos, developing tailored work processes, flow diagrams, automated Excel tools etc.

      i.e. make it about work management, not time management.

      Ideally have a few tools to show if he asks, even if you were using them pre-surfing.

    3. Also distractable*

      OK but since this isn’t work, we CAN discuss internet blocking software… did the LW reveal the software in the original post comments? I’ve never found one that was effective at preventing me from circumventing it.

  19. Peter*

    A recruiter I worked with said when he heard “I’d need to discuss the offer with my wife” he wasn’t alarmed or surprised. But he knew that she was very much a driver in the decision-making process. He saw that as pretty normal rather than any kind of red flag.

    1. JustaTech*

      I’m wondering if there’s a difference in perception between “I’ll need to discuss it with my wife” or “I’ll need to discuss it with my family” and “I’ll need to discuss it with my husband”.

  20. Apex Mountain*

    I agree that you don’t need to tell anyone who you’re discussing an offer with, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with saying you need to talk it over with spouse, family, etc.

    Taking a new job is a big enough step alone, never mind health insurance and other things that could impact a spouse or others

  21. Jennifer Strange*

    Since everyone else is really focused on #1, I’m going to give #2 some attention:

    My only additional thought for this one is that the LW mentions the opening is at their current company. Not sure how large said company is, but given that they would already be (at least somewhat) of a known entity would it have made more sense to send in the hiring manager an email saying, “I’m very interested in [job] and would love to apply. I want to make sure I can share a complete portfolio, so would it be okay if I submitted the cover letter and CV now and followed up with the portfolio once I’ve added in some recent projects”?

    1. JustaTech*

      Humans are very food-centric.
      That’s not meant as a flippant answer but as a real thought about how much socializing revolves around food.
      Like how the basics of hospitality are that when you invite someone into your home you offer them something to drink (even if it’s just water). Like how it’s not a party if there isn’t at least some food. Like how celebrations almost always have a special food component.

      I’ve seen quite a bit of discussion online about “ways to socialize without food” for people with serious eating restrictions, or who are dealing with eating disorders, because food is the default for being around other people for something other than work.

  23. Having a Scrummy Week*

    I absolutely LOVE curry. My mouth is watering just thinking about it.

    Curry is not a good “neutral” option for a work dinner – lots of people can’t handle the spice/dairy/oil/aroma, or just plain don’t like it. I’m guessing this colleague’s dietary restriction is related to either type meat or quality of meat – avoiding perhaps beef or pork, or needing a halal option. I would be more inclined to suggest a nice Lebanese, Greek, or other Mediterranean option – even Italian. They usually have something for everyone – vegetarians, vegans, carnivores, gluten-free, and lactose-intolerant.

    1. Czhorat*

      But in this case they literally don’t; there’s a religious requirement, and the coworker says that no other restaurants in the city would fill it. They didn’t choose curry because of preference, they chose it because there was no other choice.

      This is a genuinely tough situation. My gut reaction is that the LW has to suffer through it, even if it makes them unhappy; it’s much more common for the person *with* the dietary restriction to feel limited and this might be one of the few times the LW, as the one without a restriction, doesn’t get their choice of meal. It’s not a pleasant experience, but there’s probably a lesson in there somewhere.

      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        Unfortunately this is where I land too. I consider fish smells barely tolerable but I’m otherwise very flexible food restriction-wise, but I accept that sometimes I get stuck eating at seafood restaurants if others have a greater need. It’s a shame that they can’t find a restaurant for everyone but dietary restrictions should be respected. If LW doesn’t have a concern beyond “I don’t like the smells and I find the non-curry options to be boring”, that’s a taste preference.

        If curry smells are enough to make the LW sick, that’s a health restriction and I’d have a different response. LW isn’t clear where they land on that. LW implies that the taste of curry makes them sick and the smell is barely tolerable.

  25. Emily of New Moon*

    #1: If you can’t find a restaurant that accommodates everyone, then just order take-out. Or have half of you go to one restaurant and the other half go to another.

  26. Skylark*

    LW1: LW has written that “Curry is — literally — the only thing I cannot eat. I’ve tried so many times, and been sick so many times, that now I can barely tolerate the smell.” This sounds as if it’s an actual health problem – LW isn’t CHOOSING to forego curry, they can’t eat it without getting sick! (And yes, when a particular food has made you sick then the very smell of it can affect you as well.)

    Their colleague with the religious restrictions, on the other hand, IS choosing to forego certain foods; this is America and your religion is your choice! So it’s down to a matter of LW’s physical sensitivity to curry and the colleague’s deliberate choice to ONLY go to restaurants that serve that. Hmm…

    LW, if your company won’t budge on enabling your colleague to dictate where to have dinner, then why not check out the online menus of all the local curry-serving restaurants? If you find one or two that have extensive non-curry menus, then those should be the choice for the whole group – you’re most likely to find palatable choices for yourself there. But I’m still uneasy with the whole idea of letting one person’s choice of religion dictate what everyone else is expected to eat.

    2. Ccbac*

      Yikes! Hope you are never in a position of power or supervisory role if this is your “perspective”. Yikes again because that’s how bad this is.

    3. Jennifer Strange*

      As someone who has made the choice to not be part of any organized religion, can we stop pretending that religion isn’t deeply tied to culture? I have a friend who is Indian. She is not religious, but she still adheres to a lot of the Hindu dietary guidelines because it’s part of her history and her culture.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      This has been covered in some other threads above, but it’s worth repeating here: religious* dietary restrictions are just as deserving of respect as health-based dietary restrictions (and I say this as someone with 0 religious dietary restrictions and 1 health-based dietary restriction).

      * and other “choice” dietary restrictions, like ethical (non-religious) vegetarianism and veganism

      1. Tesuji*

        Repeating it doesn’t make it true.

        Health-based restrictions > choice-based restrictions

        All choice-based restrictions are equal. “I don’t like sushi” is exactly as important to me as “My religion commands me not to eat pasta.”

        When your group becomes diverse enough that you need to start balancing too many conflicting restrictions, that’s time to just give up on communal meals. Trying to decide which co-worker’s concerns you have to care about is a cancer.

        1. BatManDan*

          For what it’s worth, I could make a solid argument in support of the obverse of what you just said. Keep that in mind, please.

    5. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Another atheist here saying that we should attempt to accommodate all restrictions, whether chosen or not. Veganism and vegetarianism are choices to forego foods too. We shouldn’t have to decide whose dietary concerns are important enough to care about.

      1. N C Kiddle*

        I was vegan as a teenager for complicated emotional reasons and I got pretty sick of people using the fact that it was theoretically* a choice to be obnoxious and insulting towards me about it. That’s left me severely biased against anyone who brings up choice in that way.

        *It didn’t feel like a choice to me at the time. It felt like the only way to make sure I got enough food to stay alive without breaking my psyche.

    6. Friday Person*

      All other problems with this sentiment aside, it is quite funny to belligerently proclaim “this is America” in response to an email posted on the internet that seems from context quite likely to have been written from the UK.

  27. Alisaurus*

    LW2, I feel for ya. I once found a job that seemed like a perfect position for me – experience, title, company whose work I already admired, etc – and immediately wrote a cover letter. I already had a refreshed resume ready to go because I was actively job-hunting at the time. But when I uploaded everything and hit submit… error message. I tried a couple more times, then refreshed the page – only to discover they had closed the job listing WHILE I WAS APPLYING. I was very sad.

  28. I wear my sunglasses at night*

    Rather than endlessly rehash (AGAIN) the “but do you REALLY get sick from being around curry” vs “but his religion” vs “racism!” vs “I didn’t know restaurants existed outside the US and there is no concept of a curry house in the US so therefore this letter makes no sense to me, a US person*” comments…maybe we give the very recently bereaved site owner a break and just sort of…shut the heck up?
    The original letter is from 6? years ago and the original letter writer never updated AFAIK. Clearly the situation either resolved itself or was actually so Not A Real Issue that it wasn’t worth updating us about. Devolving into ANOTHER “food intolerances!! Food racism!!” comment war about it today doesn’t really help anyone. Yes including people who currently have a food restriction of any type, whether it’s medical or religious or personal preferences. They can go elsewhere online to sort that out.

    So today, maybe, we…IDK…talk about something else entirely. Or just [redacted] chill for once.

    *im saying this as a US person who has watched enough of the original Kitchen Nightmares to know what the deal is with curry houses in the UK

      1. Gamer American*

        I apologize. While I find these sorts of comments obnoxious (this is an article Alison just posted; if this isn’t an appropriate time to comment then when would be?), I think I could have found a slightly less antagonistic way of phrasing it.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          While I agree with a lot of the original post, Alison is the one who put that spicy dish on today’s menu… If she didn’t want us to discuss it in bona fide, I don’t think she would have done so.

          1. Friday Person*

            Having posted a slightly snarky comment and immediately regretted it, I will just say that there are possible reasons to consider our participation in a discussion beyond “what Alison thinks about it.”

  29. DivergentStitches*

    #2 since it’s at the OP’s current company, I’d put together the application package and send it to talent acquisition or HR and explain. Chances are good it’ll still be considered.

  30. Friday Person*

    All other problems with this sentiment aside, it is quite funny to belligerently proclaim “this is America” in response to an email posted on the internet that seems from context quite likely to have been written from the UK.

  31. learnedthehardway*

    OP#4 – I would say the only time when you SHOULD mention you need to discuss a job offer with your spouse is if the job entails a relocation. In this situation, you are telling the employer that if you accept the offer, it means your spouse is also on board with the decision, and that’s critical to the success of the hire (given that it entails actually moving). In fact, in the case of a relocation, the company may request that your spouse confirm they are comfortable with the situation, as a spouse who is not happy can make the hire not work out.

    Otherwise, while you can mention you want to discuss the offer with your spouse, be aware that this can be interpreted in various ways. Some people will read this as respect for your spouse. Others will read it as unable to make your own decisions. There can be gender differences in how things are interpreted as well. How people read it really says more about themselves than about you, but you can’t determine what their attitudes are or what biases they would bring to their understanding of your statement, so you’re probably best of saying that you would like to have until X time to consider the offer.

    Whether you consult your spouse, a lawyer, accountant, a psychic or read tea leaves – it’s really not the employer’s business, unless the offer will potentially fail because it fundamentally changes your spouse’s life.

  32. Can't spell 'Who Cares' without HR*

    #1 – If I were OP, I would go, sit right next to the person who picked the restaurant, order a big bowl of curry and throw up on his lap

    3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      The problem with that will be the people who will accuse you of vomiting intentionally or try to negotiate the aim of the vomit. It’s not quite the irrefutable demonstration of the problem at hand as it would seem.

      Speaking from experience.

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