my mom gets put on PIPs and loses or leaves all of her jobs

by Alison Green on July 29, 2025

A reader writes:

I’m at a loss for how to handle this situation. I know you cannot necessarily provide advice for dealing with family dynamics, but I hope you can help with just talking to someone who has a hard time understanding bigger words, taking things very personally, and in general doesn’t think their performance is that bad.

My mom has been in HR and AP for at least 25 years. I know that she knows how to use multiple software and programs, and she is continuously complimented on her ability to work with people, especially other employees. However, she misses details, routinely misspells or uses incorrect phrasing in emails or formal HR letters, makes errors in Excel, and asks for a lot of review from other staff. She believes she does the technical things well enough. But, because I’m her daughter, I know that she has ADHD, probably dyslexia, and anxiety and, in general, thinks things are good enough when they aren’t. She has been put on performance improvement plans (PIPs) before and let go from several jobs, or left because she thought she was being taken advantage of or wrongly treated based on her performance.

When I’ve tried to talk with her about these issues, she gets defensive initially but I’m able to get through a bit by keeping things solutions-oriented once we’ve worked through just how upset she is and feeling wronged. I can never get direct answers, and it’s like she won’t assess her performance honestly. She’s told me that at her current job, her boss was really nice at first and told her she’d be responsible for a lot, and because she was so good at her job, would give her a significant pay increase. Fast forward to nine months later and a majority of her responsibilities have been taken from her and given to someone else. The manager says it’s because the other employee is jealous and controlling, but meanwhile, my mom has little work to do and cannot practice skills or show improvement. She was also only given a 2% raise and then when she asked to meet with her boss, the boss said there was nothing to meet about. Two weeks later, mom receives the first PIP. It’s been two months and though she’s taking an Excel course and working on some things, she just got her second PIP update. She now has one month for final review and they mentioned potential termination.

I suggested she should go through the PIP line by line and honestly assess if and when she’s done things correctly or not. And she should request a meeting with her boss to review these things and potentially adjusting the PIP.

I am so scared she is going to be unemployed again, but also want to try and get through to her that maybe it’s not her bosses who are the problem. What if it’s really her? Do you have any advice on how to deal with this?

I’m sorry, this must be really hard!

The thing is … it’s not your job as her daughter to make her see reason on this, and I don’t know that you can. I fully understand why you want to — this is your mom and you love her and want the best for her, and you see her probably mishandling something in a way that is likely to have serious consequences — but you’re putting a lot of responsibility on yourself for something that you’re not well-positioned to fix.

You can certainly try pointing out that she’s run into similar problems at multiple jobs, and that when it’s happened this many times, her perspective on what’s happening might be off. You can tell her that at most jobs, regularly missing details and making errors is a really big deal (especially in HR and accounts payable), and that those are things that will eventually get most people fired, so it’s not a conspiracy of managers turning against her, but rather predictable consequences of not doing the job the way they need it done. You can ask her to try to put ego aside and really listen to what her current boss is telling her. You can ask her to consider whether other jobs might be better suited for her particular combination of strengths and weaknesses, and you can help her think through what those might be. And you can definitely encourage her to get checked for conditions like dyslexia that might be contributing to her struggle.

And maybe she will hear you! It would be great if she does. But it sounds like she’s been this way for many years, through many jobs, and hasn’t listened to multiple managers who have been delivering similar messages. I don’t know that you’re going to get through to her. These are fairly deep-rooted issues. It’s also possible that at some level she recognizes the problems with her work but genuinely doesn’t know how to fix it, and so it’s easier to decide other people are the problem, not her. That’s going to be rough, if not impossible, for you as her daughter to fix for her.

(I do want to note that if her manager really said they were taking away her work because the other employee was jealous and controlling, that would indicate she’s also dealing with a bad manager on top of everything else … but you’re also hearing that filtered through your mom’s retelling, and it’s possible the other employee raised issues with your mom’s work and your mom is the one who translated that into her being jealous and controlling, or who knows what. The fact that the boss went on to put her on a PIP soon afterwards says there’s probably something more to that feedback than the way it got relayed to you.)

Ultimately, you can’t be your mom’s job coach. (You can encourage her to find one, though!) You can be her daughter who loves her and who speaks the truth as you see it, but taking on the emotional responsibility for finding a way to solve this is likely to only add to how hard it is to watch. I’m sorry.

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  1. Yup*

    It is incredibly frustrating to deal with a parent(s) who refuses to take an honest look at themselves or go to therapy to learn how to use tools or advocate for what they need. It’s like talking to a brick wall, even if they are otherwise good, kind people. There’s something they don’t want to deal with or look at, and take it from me–there’s 0 you can do to move that needle.

    What helped me understand this was reading that a lot of adult children think they can just find the right words to break down the wall their parents put up and finally deal with the person hiding there. But there is no wall–this is it. That’s your parent. What you see is all there is. So you can give yourself permission to stop trying and to just listen and nod as needed and stay detached. You are not alone, and you are not responsible. xx

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Seconding this.

      My parents aren’t this specific flavor of in-denial and difficult, but they definitely have their personal blind spots. I don’t have a good answer–this is just who they are.

    2. Herebutonce*

      This captures the likely mindset perfectly. For mom the ranting probably just works as a pressure valve. It’s really difficult however to internalize that her complaints are not a request to solve anything.
      LW, it’s fine to feel however you feel about this situation. However the most freeing approach might be the one that feels scariest. Emotionally drop your end of the rope when she starts up with her complaints and do what you can to face the feelings of helplessness this brings up for you.
      I’m sorry, that’s the only thing the eventually worked for me and reduced my stress levels as I started to refuse to take on stress around my parents’ self-made messes and their refusal to deal with any of them.

      1. KnockedIn*

        Agreed on this one. I’ve also had to deal with a parent who will complain forever and never do even a single second of introspection about the fact that there is only one common denominator in all these recurring problems. I’ve seen the lack-of-emotional response called the grey rock method before, and I feel like that’s a fairly accurate representation of what worked to reduce my stress levels and let me disentangle myself from the constant cycle of drama.

        And remember: you can’t do this work for her. No matter how much you love her and want the best for her, you can’t be more engaged in fixing her own life than she is. Unfortunately, it just doesn’t work like that!

        1. Herebutonce*

          I had already started to use this approach before I came across the name, but definitely yes to the grey rock method. For a good while I really had to hold the line to reset expectations all around, including my own.
          Also strong agree to your second paragraph. Unless someone decides to change, all the pleading in the world won’t make a difference.

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          This 100%. You can’t care more about someone’s life/job/etc than they do.

      2. Gel*

        Hi! thank you for understanding. Yes, she’s absolutely someone who has to vent with no understanding of problem-solving. Could you clarify what you mean by “emotionally dropping my end of the rope?” Do you mean just putting up my own wall and nodding and detaching like the person mentioned above?

        1. NotBatman*

          Yes, I think so! My experience has been something like:

          Parent: I just can’t take work anymore. My boss is controlling what llamas I groom and when, my coworkers keep stealing my llama combs, and I just want to tear my hair out!
          Me: Okay.
          Parent: It makes me dread going into work. It’s the worst feeling, makes me feel like I’m no good.
          Me: Shame. Pizza for dinner?
          Parent: And did I tell you about this thing that my boss said to me today? You won’t believe what it was. You want to hear it?
          Me: Sorry, don’t have the bandwidth. Pizza, right? I’ll call.
          Parent: What she said to me, and this is unbelievable, but she said —
          Me: Sorry to cut you off, but I need a break from work talk. Pepperoni good?

        2. Herebutonce*

          Basically what NotBatman said. Their sample conversation is a good approach. Don’t try to jump in at any point with concrete suggestions, since you already know that she won’t take any of them. That was part one of my approach.
          Part two is, because I suspect that you probably dwell a lot on it outside your conversations with her, to learn to drop the felt emotional pressure to *I have to solve this* or *I have to save her* or however this feels for you the rest of the time as well.
          That part is more difficult in my experience, but also necessary to truly let go. I had to learn to notice when I ended up in that mindset, reassure myself that I wanted to continue with increased detachment, even if I felt bad about that in the moment and then distract myself with something else so my mind wouldn’t start wandering straight back to ruminating on whatever the latest complaint was.
          If you don’t read her blog already, CaptainAwkward might also be a good place to get some ideas on how to approach this. Good luck!

          1. Herebutonce*

            And to be clear, it’s also fine to cut such conversations short and have less contact with her than previously, if the conversations always go the same way and just serve to stress you out. You’ve mentioned your own kid further down. It’s completely understandable if you need more energy for the family you have created yourself now!

            1. Gel*

              Thank you so much for going into it more, and the recommendations. Since our interactions are phone/video calls, I can always just start saying more that I need to go or th emore open-ended questions someone recommended above. We don’t talk as much anymore (my subtle detachment that she already notices) so when we do it’s like a big update, so harder to avoid those issues but I think there’s room to try for sure.

              1. Green Goose*

                Hi OP! Your letter reminds me so much of my sister, I seriously could have written it about her.
                My therapist gave me great advice for my draining wall-of-words rants I used to experience with my sister. I was stressed because she was spiraling from getting fired and also being unemployed for long periods but she’d just rant and rave at me on the phone.
                My therapist told me to start the phone call by saying I had twenty minutes available and then to set a timer. Therapist instructed When the timer loudly went off, hang up.
                It sounds harsh but it actually worked for me because my sister, when she was in one of her rants, would not stop talking. There wasn’t a natural ebb in talking to graciously end the convo so the timer helped me.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The other aspect is it doesn’t matter how much you know, they are still your parents and a lot of the time they will NEVER accept what you say until they hear it from someone else. My parents think they listen to me, but there are multiple examples where I have told them something (often repeatedly), it’s literally in my area of professional expertise, and until someone else tells them the same thing, they disregard what I said.

      This isn’t fixable. It is what it is.

      1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        THIS. For some parents, their kid is only ever going to be their kid, no matter what pertinent/relevant expertise they have.

        Happens with my sibling sometimes, too, but he’s better about listening the second time if I name what’s happening.

      2. JustaTech*

        Oh my goodness my in-laws do this. They will ask me things about my area of expertise and then completely ignore what I say unless I can find someone else (usually a man with the title “doctor”) to say it.

        If it were just me offering advice I would just stop, but when they ask (and then I spend time researching the answer and give them citations) and then they ignore me (or do the complete opposite) it’s so frustrating.
        At least it’s not just me?

        1. Gel*

          It happens to me too. Only listen if it comes from someone else, and even then, extremely cautious.

      3. Parents arg*

        This, so much this! And I’ve figured out, whenever she asks me what to do, what she’s really asking is either for confirmation she’s doing it right or a hack to beat the system, neither of which I can usually give! Carolyn Hax, maybe or someone else, gives advice like “that sounds hard, what are you going to do about it”? I would really try to stop giving your mom advice, especially if it makes her double down, for both your sakes!

    5. Pescadero*

      “But there is no wall–this is it. That’s your parent”

      That’s your parent/spouse/sibling/cow-orker/every human in existence including ourselves.

      We’re frustrating creatures.

    6. Ally McBeal*

      If anyone is looking for books on this topic, “Will I Ever Be Good Enough?” by Dr. Karyl McBride and “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents” by Lindsay Gibson are both great.

      1. Properlike*

        This is why I love this Commentariat. I don’t know if you were one of the folks who posted about this a few years back, but it was helpful at the time, and my loved one learned a lot about themselves!

      2. Gel*

        I’ve had these on my list. First book I got through (what a feat) many years after grad school was Understanding the Borderline Mother.

        1. Yup*

          “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents” is what finally made everything click for me.

    7. but why*

      Yep exactly this. I stopped talking to my parents for a number of reasons. My mom refuses to see her flaws, every issue is caused by someone else or is not an issue at all – just a problem to and for me alone. Relating to the letter, my mom had a job about 8 years ago when she was working for a proudly out gay man. He would bring his various boyfriends into the office to introduce them to the staff, he’d talk about the gay-friendly cruises he was going on, etc. He would take his whole staff out to the city to see a musical each year and one time it was kinky boots.

      The way she’d talk about it was that he was in your face about it and I think that made her very uncomfortable, though she never outright said that. But she would make comments at home about “how gay” he was all the time.

      She was fired three years into working with him. She’d explain that he never liked her, that he was “two-faced”, and was downright mean to her. But he gave her very generous bonuses ($10k+ multiple times each year) and raises up until the moment she was fired. I think she likely said the wrong thing to a coworker or he overheard her homophobic comments – the kind of comments about him that usually stay at home.

    8. FunkyMunky*

      I think the main issue is that Mom may be unemployed and that may fall on the daughter to support her?

    9. Gel*

      Thank you! I had come to this conclusion much easier with my Dad, who I no longer talk to after writing him a letter of how I felt about 4 years ago. Never heard back from him, so made my feelings for the letter even more valid.

      But mom is a different beast because though she’s always had issues, she was *more* there as we aged. Like you wrote “But there is no wall–this is it. That’s your parent. What you see is all there is. So you can give yourself permission to stop trying and to just listen and nod as needed and stay detached. You are not alone, and you are not responsible.” I have been detaching for a long time and at this point, I think dissociate on calls or when I’ve visited her back home. And that is it’s own form of agony and sadness when it happens. So, am just trying to get closer to what I feel comfortable with on how I want to deal and approach this, since I’ve got a lot more years with her.

    10. Six Feldspar*

      Absolutely. Seeing someone in a situation that could benefit from your advice, but knowing that you’re not the person to give them that advice, is one of the most frustrating experiences in the world.

    11. Bartimaeus*

      There is a joke that fits here:
      “How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb?”
      “Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.”

  2. Specks*

    I really, really feel for you. I could’ve written a similar letter about my mother, but about anxiety and depression, with the different types of issues that brings. Our parents will not hear us, they will not change because we bring it up, there are no magic words. Work on breaking cycles and on your own reactions, not on fixing other people, even the people you love and owe your literal existence to.

    1. Gel*

      <3 thank you. I am definitely doing that- I just haven't found a space I'm comfortable or accepted yet that for the rest of my life while she's alive, it'll never be the relationship I want and the life I know she could have if she just got her stuff together. And I just don't know how I plan to navigate it, especially once I have a child, because I know there will need to be distance and heavy boundaries (and she looks for me for all advice and thinks we're fine). For me, I live in another state which has helped a lot, but the toll it takes and bringing me back to childhood is too much, even with all of the therapy!!

  3. Lovely Tresses*

    I’m so sorry, OP, this sounds stressful! Alison is right, you can’t be your mom’s job coach. I’m wondering if OP is living at home and/or financially impacted by mom’s job losses due to performance, and are therefore trying to help mom so their whole family can maintain housing and overall financial stability? Less “it’s hard to watch my mom struggle so I’m trying to help her” to “I’m worried we won’t be able to keep our house because my mom is struggling to keep a job, so I’m trying to help her”

    1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      This was my thought as well, and it makes the advice “this isn’t yours to solve” a lotttttt harder to swallow. I wonder if maybe the LW could talk to their mom about shifting into work that leans into their strengths &emdash; talking to people and developing rapport is a skill! Maybe HR isn’t the field for her, but something like sales or events might suit better? Maybe she’d be a stellar tour guide!

      1. Rogue Slime Mold*

        She does seem to have the gift of quickly building a rapport with people. A job that leaned on that might be a good fit.

        1. Properlike*

          Yes. Maybe helping her lean into volunteering at an organization where she can shine and get the feedback she needs/wants (and segue that into references for a different career path.) This advice doesn’t work so well if she’s desperate for money and must work round-the-clock.

    2. Staple Remover*

      Yes, that was my thought! My mother also struggles with jobs for a variety of outside and self-sabotaging reasons. She has no intention of ever taking job advice from me, although to be fair, I don’t take job advice from her either…

      However, she can’t afford to retire, and when she runs out of money, it’s going to become my problem. I can’t afford to support both of us, and part of me really resents the likelihood that I’ll soon end up working three jobs because she couldn’t figure out how to work one.

      1. Properlike*

        Just stopping here to say: It does not have to be your problem in a financial sense. That may sound (and feel) cold-hearted, but she is an adult with options that don’t depend on you, and that might have to be okay for all concerned. Hugs to you.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Seconding this. What would your mother do to support herself if you weren’t in the picture? She can do that.

          (I know that feels incredibly harsh–especially in the US with its insufficient welfare system–but your mother made many choices along the way to get where she is now and sometimes it takes a lot to convince someone to change.)

      2. Gel*

        I’m exactly here. And she has almost no retirement because she has cashed them out before or not opted in because she needed the money. So there’s this level of it all boiling up-all of her micro bad decisions, lack of accountability, aloofness and thinking it will all work out, when in reality, the few times she’s let me get like 5 mins of air time saying ” you will need more money than you think for retirement,” it ends with changing the subject and her saying “No I won’t put that on you…”. It’s completely delusional and I’m just feeling like something has to be said.

    3. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah. I really want to ask OP if the reason she’s worried is because it financially impacts her.

      My mom lives with me because she can’t live alone. One of the reasons she can’t is she is financially irresponsible. I can’t trust her to pay any bill. I know online advice would be that I’m not responsible for her. But the option is either she lives with me or she’s going to be homeless. So it is what it is.

      I do love my mom despite her faults. And I let go a lot of my resentment when I figured out why she is the way she is. It’s a very sad story but I at least understand her more now.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I work at a government agency that handles financial conservatorships. This basically means that if someone has been found incapable of managing their own finances, the agency does it for them: depositing income, paying all the bills, giving the individual an allowance and putting the rest into a savings account they can’t access.

        As I learned about it, I couldn’t help thinking that it would be kind of nice to have someone else handle everything and know how much money I could spend frivolously without needing to come up with a budget.

        1. Gel*

          The funny part about this is she’s the conservator of both of my brothers who receive disability (WTF!) I even suggested maybe she just go on it too if she feels she’s just not equipped to work due to mental and physical health, so at least she would have stable income.

          1. Andie Begins*

            I hope I’m being alarmist here but if your mother has had to cash out retirement/etc. for financial need, I’d be very concerned about your brothers’ disability payments being improperly diverted (if not now, then in the future when the need gets more pressing).

      2. Boof*

        Uhg, sorry, and I’m glad you’ve found a balance.
        I think it’s really tricky because sometimes the person who mismanages their own financial situation then abuses the finances of anyone helping (maybe intentionally, maybe just because of the ongoing bad judgement) so one has to be really careful and potentially willing to look at what limits are and how to minimize any fallout / own oxygen mask first.

    5. Desert Rat*

      I’m in a space like this right now. I am not in danger of losing housing, but my family member is, and my options are essentially 1) help this family member retain housing, 2) let them move in with my family (not viable for many reasons), or 3) say “this isn’t mine to solve” with the knowledge that this family member will end up homeless – this isn’t hyperbole, they *will* end up homeless.

      We can argue all day about how this shouldn’t be my problem to solve, but I can’t ethically absolve myself of the problem, so I must solve it.

      1. Anony for this*

        Yeah. My situation is a little different, but long story short is that at one point, my parents needed a lot of help financially. My dad was being his usual, difficult self and I had to get really firm with him that I’m going to help him, but he needed to be way more honest and cooperative with me about what was going on. To this day I hate having made him feel small, but I couldn’t do it anymore. Fortunately for me, he got on board — bc no matter what, I wasn’t going to let my parents fall and it was always going to be on me, to a degree, to help fix it.

          1. Redaktorin*

            This probably feels like a helpful question, but please know that for many people the answer is genuinely “die in a gutter.” There may not be some other solution people just aren’t remembering exists.

            1. Desert Rat*

              This was the answer for a different family member of mine. He became homeless and unemployed, and we lost touch with him. We found out about his passing from law enforcement. I don’t want the same fate to befall this family member that I’m trying to help.

          2. Desert Rat*

            The answer for this could also potentially be, “Have enough money to support themselves because they didn’t spend all their money on their children.”

            I love my children, don’t regret them for a second, but I’d be a millionaire right now if they didn’t exist.

            1. Someone who gets that*

              My parents had me very young. Teen pregnancy was a thing in the 70s. They were…convinced to keeping the pregnancy and get married, but I’m not such a romantic that I don’t realize how different their lives would have been if they didn’t have me and didn’t get married at 17. A little off the subject, but I feel like folk struggle with understanding how a pragmatic perspective isn’t the same as hating your children or hating your life or whatever.

      2. Smithy*

        Yeah – this was largely a family member of mine, who super struggled to maintain any kind of employment once he hit his mid-fifties.

        Ultimately, that intervention wasn’t required because he ended up with a romantic partner who he lives with and pays for just about everything. But I do think in that period before he’d truly qualify for low-cost senior housing, his financial precariousness was truly a “family problem”.

      3. Gel*

        Yup. She has couch surfed before, albeit 20 years ago. She’s lived with others. She relies on my brother’s disability for some of the rent. If she ran out of unemployment, I wouldn’t have other options except to somehow help. Even then she wouldn’t consider moving to me.

    6. RagingADHD*

      That’s where my mind went, too. It’s possible LW can’t afford to completely drop the rope on this, with “afford” being literal.

    7. Gel*

      Hey Lovely Tresses,

      Thank you for asking for clarification. No, I don’t live at home, but in another state. Unfortunately I’m the oldest, and my two other brothers have zero clue or prep for how to live (another whole story that’s a sore spot between my mom and I). But, the stress of her no longer being able to afford her rent, bills, and providing for her and my 23YO brother (YEP!) is making me sick. She lives in an incredibly unaffordable state for housing, and had already been struggling with her job. So it’s also a source when we talk of “oh hey mom my job…or I did this thing… and she can’t do anything and has nothing going on because unemployed…”

      It’s just a mess

      1. nanani*

        This just adds to the likelihood that your mom will never listen to you. You are her DAUGHTER. To someone like this,who puts work and stress on you while expecting your male sibling to be cared for, your words are just noise to her.
        As the daughter of a mother who takes the word of a man, any man, even a random passerby, over anything I say even when I have first hand information and expertise, this is not a winnable battle.
        It sounds harsh but you can’t make you mom listen. She doesn’t see you as a person with anything worth listening to.

      2. Anon Y Mouse*

        Hi Gel, I wish you strength in this.

        Writing as someone with a lot in common with your mom, I would say it’s very likely that she KNOWS the problem is her, but that ADHD shame, a powerful force, is stopping her from outright coming out and saying so to you, because she cares how you see her. I have found myself unable to bring myself to tell my parents I was on a PIP, or that I felt I was doing so badly I deserved to be fired. I can talk about it with my spouse and that’s about it.

        I’m doing better these days in a less pressured job but my fundamental problems will always be with me, and although there are things I can do (medication, one day, I hope – I don’t currently have that as an option – and ADHD coaching) I can’t change my nature, only try to find a niche I can work in.

        1. Gel*

          Hi Anon,
          Thank you for the insight and behind the curtain view. I have learned this from my therapist. Deep down I know she cares but her deflection and shame get in the way of her actually letting others be heard because she doesn’t want to be criticized, even if she IS wrong. I’m glad you’re doing better and have your spouse as someone you can talk with. I think the one difference I’m hearing from my mom is that YOU are knowledgeable of these things and are trying to learn more about yourself and work with it. I think mom has a cognitive dissonance of actually understanding how much change or learning she’s doing. We did 3 counseling sessions virtually together and she just said the other day that after that, she’s been able to handle criticism or other opinions… :/ Anyway, thank you again.

  4. Bubbles*

    I could have written this same letter about my own mother, except with autism and enabling alcoholics. You can’t change them. I’m so sorry — you’re not alone.

    1. Someone who gets that*

      For me, it’s similar except my mother is the alcoholic. I’ve had to do a lot of work on myself, and it has helped. It doesn’t change that I want her better, but I had to accept she won’t get better based on anything I say or do.

      1. Gel*

        Thank you for your empathy here, and for sharing your own story a bit. I’ve been in therapy for a long time!! I’m glad to hear we’re both doing the work.

        1. Someone who gets that*

          I really hope there’s some relief for you. You deserve to not have this weighing on you.

  5. LL*

    A clearheaded but kind response, Allison.

    It’s an additional layer when it comes to a kid trying to help or fix their parents. I always think of a line from Dave Barry: no matter how mature and accomplished you are today, no matter if you are president of the US…. to your mom, you are still Little Ms. Poopy Pants. And it’s hard to take job advice from Little Ms. Poopy Pants.

    1. Darcy Mae*

      Dave Ramsey calls it the “Powdered Butt Syndrome” – once someone has powdered your butt, they aren’t going to take your advice about money or sex.

      (before someone drives by with a condemnation from on high – yes, the DR organization is a textbook case of dysfunction but their financial principles were invaluable to me in my 30s)

      1. Lydia*

        Also, that’s not bad reasoning on how parents see their children, even as adults. At one point a few years ago, my father said about my brother and me “you kids don’t understand how the world works” except we were both in our 40s. It still makes me laugh.

        1. MJ*

          Oh, I hear this.
          During the first COVID lockdown my dad was dealing with some stuff in another city across the country.

          I offered if he needed someone local to deliver paperwork to contact one of my friends in the city. He replied “Thanks, I think I need someone more mature.”

          I, and my friends, are in our 50s!

          And for even more hilarity – the real estate agent he ended up using was a couple decades younger. :D

        2. Dust Bunny*

          My parents definitely don’t think we know how the world works. My dad is a little more malleable on this; my mother is highly resistant. The irony is that she hasn’t had an outside job in almost 40 years and has less contact with the world than any of us.

          1. Rainy*

            My parents have at least accepted that they were the experts on how their world worked but things are different now, and also that their children work in significantly different employment sectors than they did, so they don’t try to tell us what to do.

            My in-laws, on the other hand…oof. My FIL was fired from his programming job (and, I suspect, blacklisted locally for the same stuff he was fired for) in the early 2000s and after a few years of job hunting with no results, just gave up and never worked again. That’s a story he’s been trickle-truthing to his kids for the last 20+ years and I doubt we’ll ever know exactly what happened (but I have my suspicions). My MIL retired during the pandemic from adult education (night/tech school), after unsuccessfully trying to obtain a position in K12 for multiple years for reasons that are a mystery to her but completely clear to anyone who’s heard her account of her interviews. Both of them are convinced that they are the only people who understand how the world works and are very loud about it.

            1. Heinous Eli*

              I didn’t know I needed the term “trickle-truthing” in my life. It’s so useful. Thank you!

            2. Gel*

              That sounds pretty awful about MIL and FIL. Glad at least your parents are able to value you as an adult.

              1. Rainy*

                Yeah, no one is more surprised than me that my parents are the fun, reasonable ones in the mix. Did not have that on my bingo card, tbqh.

        3. MigraineMonth*

          I graduated into the Great Recession and moved in with my parents after college. I think it had significant advantages! We had to learn how to live together and interact as adults (at least a 20-something college graduate rather than a high schooler).

          It also gave my parents a front-row seat to How Much the Job Market Sucks Right Now, so I think they were more open than a lot of parents to Everything is Harder Now and The Way You Succeeded No Longer Works when my sister was struggling to afford to raise a child on two incomes.

          1. Gel*

            I’m glad you had that opportunity. College for me was the only safe housing as my mom was in between jobs, living with my unstable brother, and considering moving back in with an abusive partner. My dad went and moved in with his girlfriend after he lost/sold the house my senior year of high school.

      2. RunShaker*

        I do not have any respect for DR or his organization but I do recognize that financial principles helped many people and I’m glad it helped you so sending hugs. But I really came here to say I so love: “Powdered Butt Syndrome” – once someone has powdered your butt, they aren’t going to take your advice about money or sex. It cracked me up.

      3. not nice, don't care*

        It’s not so much the dysfunction that’s the problem with ramsey or his org, it’s the vileness of ramsey himself, the maga. But I’m guessing you knew that.

      4. Phone Voice*

        I’m glad to have a term for this, as I approach this from the other side. The other day a sensible twentysomething of my acquaintance told me something I needed to hear, and because I met them when I babysat them some decades ago it took me an extra couple of moments to accept what they told me.

  6. Viki*

    It sucks. It really does, especially if you’re at the point where your parents are nearing or at retirement and you realize oh no, this is not going to go how they think it will.

    In the end though, your mother is an adult and this isn’t your circus, even though you might have to be the one cleaning up after it (which I do want to stress you can decide how little or much you want to clean up after the circus).

    You can’t make someone care about their job more than you do. You really can’t. And as hard as it is, sometimes you have to just step back and watch them spin, because your mother has been working 25 years. This is happening consistently in her career, she is the one who is doing it to herself.

    You can decide how much of a life raft you want to be.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      This, 100%. You’re taking on a lot of responsibility here, LW. And I get it – you love her and want her to succeed. (And also not end up living on your couch? Which, fair!)

      She is an adult who has choices. There’s a reason for the expression “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” There’s no way to force her to see reality. Let go of making it your job. Your mom’s going to do what she’s going to do.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, it sounds really hard.

    2. Turquoisecow*

      And after 25 years, people usually don’t change up how they do things if they don’t have to. If PIPs and being laid off hasn’t pushed her toward self awareness, I doubt her child telling her to is going to force it.

      1. Gel*

        Thank y’all. What would you say though about me hvaing this discussion with her now so that in 5-10 years when she retires, I don’t have to drop a bigger bomb then when I can’t help her financially?

  7. new pen name*

    I was *this* close to writing into AAM just last month about a very similar situation with my mother. I cannot offer you any advice, LW, but I can say that I know how difficult and frustrating and scary navigating these situations can be.

  8. FD*

    LW, as someone who struggles with this a lot… You aren’t your mom’s parent. This isn’t your job to fix. It’s probably worth interrogating why you feel like it is. For me, there’s an element of my parents having put too much of their emotional labor on to me as their kid than is appropriate; that might not be the case for you, but it’s something to consider.

    Broadly, I disagree with this advice as I think it’s a little more involved and invested than is super healthy. If it was me, I might ask *once*, “It seems like the stuff you’re saying is hard for you is similar to [stuff that’s hard for me because of a shared condition] / [thing I’ve seen be hard for loved ones diagnosed with condition]. Do you think you would ever consider [getting checked out for condition if she hasn’t] / [asking for specific accommodations] / etc.”

    After that, when she starts a venting about work, let her vent, but don’t try to fix it or engage in that way, and redirect if it seems appropriate or of the emotional labor is excessive. E.g. “That sounds really rough. Sorry to hear about it. Hey, what are you bringing to Jenny’s potluck?”

    1. Herebutonce*

      Parentification might play a role, though even in a pretty healthy parent-child relationship some dynamics get flipped, as everyone gets older.
      That aside, I’m mostly with you on how to approach this. Answer once, then redirect. Consider a topic that is not work related where parent feels comfortable, a show, gardening or other hobbies usually serve well.
      While the fantasy of somehow resolving this if one just explains it well enough is tempting, it is just that, a fantasy.

    2. Kella*

      Yes, it’s definitely possible that a long-standing dynamic in which OP has had inappropriate amounts of responsibility placed on them is the precursor to this question. Parentification is often not just “I need to take care of mom” but “I need to take care of mom so that she can take care of me” and the hard part is learning the short cut which is “I can take care of me regardless of whether mom is cared for.”

      OP, if you think this dynamic might be an element, then I’d reframe this issue for yourself in terms of how it impacts *you*. If the issue is mainly that your mother vents to you a lot about her work problems that you can see clearly are being exacerbated by her own behavior, consider what support you can and can’t offer her in these conversations, or if you need to ask for the conversations to stop altogether.

      If, on the other hand, you are dependent on your mother’s finances in some way, look at what power you do have in the situation, that is not related to convincing your mom of one thing or another. Are you old enough to get a job yourself? If not, are there resources you can seek out so that when you are old enough, you’ll be ready to hit the ground running? It really really sucks when it is your mom’s responsibility to care for you and she can’t be counted on to do that. And there are other sources of care and support that exist besides your mother if she is not reliable.

      1. Worldwalker*

        “Are you old enough to get a job yourself?”

        The OP has posted that she’s in her 20s and lives in another state. It’s not her mother’s responsibility to care for her.

  9. Heffalump*

    If the LW’s mother is at all amenable to seeing a job counselor, she’ll probably need some help finding a suitable one. The LW is presumably in a position to know to what extent she can help her mother with that.

    1. ET Fun Home*

      Are there job counselors that specialize in workers who are neurodivergent or have learning differences? (Alison? Anyone?)

      I was thinking an ADHD/EF Coach may be helpful in terms of making it acceptable for her to talk about her neurodivergence and steps to mitigate it in the job field.

      An Educational Therapist may also be able to help come up with workarounds and strategies for when her job and her learning differences create friction, or refer her to professionals who can help her with her particular LDs (a reading specialist, for example.)

      The only issue is that these things cost money. And a good therapist may be the best investment.

  10. Madame Desmortes*

    My younger sister and I are in the same field, and we graduated from our professional programs the same year. I started a professional job within two months of graduation. My sister… struggled for most of a year, and then self-sabotaged for a good while longer because she wasn’t landing any interviews and resented having to struggle through.

    (Also because she got a lot of unwise you’re-too-good-to-pay-your-dues “advice” from our parents, one of whom was an academic to whom degrees and institutional prestige mean everything — which is emphatically not how our field works! — and the other of whom was a nurse whose job-hunting process was very different from that of our field.)

    I didn’t — couldn’t — step in until my parents tapped out and asked me to. In all honesty, I didn’t have to do that much, just a résumé overhaul and a stern talking-to about the purpose and structure of cover letters, since she had been sending in two-sentence ones that are an automatic roundfiling in our field.

    It worked, and she’s still in the job she landed. She hates it because she hates everything — it’s basic to her personality — but she does reasonably good work.

    The point being, I couldn’t do a damn thing to help until she was ready to be helped. Your mom is likely the same, with the added wrinkle of the power inversion — parents tend not to like needing their kids in this way.

    I’m sorry, OP, and I wish you and your mom the best. I suggest that you prioritize your relationship with your mom over helping with her job woes.

    1. Heffalump*

      (Also because she got a lot of unwise you’re-too-good-to-pay-your-dues “advice” from our parents, one of whom was an academic to whom degrees and institutional prestige mean everything ….

      Your sister assumed that her degree would unlock the door all by itself?

      1. Madame Desmortes*

        Yes, exactly. Dad thought the Degree from Prestigious Institution would suffice, Mom thought the Credential would suffice (because that seems to be mostly how it works in nursing). I knew better but (again) couldn’t fix it until they gave up and my sister was willing to unbend.

        Since then, my sister has wanted to move to a different part of the country. She’s applied for jobs now and then, but hasn’t been able to land one because she’s largely stagnated as a professional, and her attitude is every bit as snappish and contemptuous as it was then. I’ve left her strictly alone about it — there is nothing helpful I can say or do, so I just listen and nod.

      3. Your Local Password Resetter*

        That’s also what a lot of schools say (or at least heavily imply).

        1. Madame Desmortes*

          I now teach in the program I graduated from, and I am extremely careful not to say this. What I say instead is, “When you’re on the job market, all of your competition has The Credential. What sets you apart from them?”

          (This is a lie, but a white lie at best — some people definitely think they can sneak into the field without The Credential. A very few are correct; most get roundfiled immediately.)

      4. Pescadero*

        In lots and lots of fields – it does.

        The mentioned nursing is a perfect example. Are you an RN? If so – you’ll get a job. The demand is so high relative to supply that if you’re a warm body without a felony – you won’t have to work to get a job.

        1. Arglebarglor*

          This is less so today; many employers want experienced RNs and new grads can have a harder time getting a job. However back when I was a new-grad RN (20+ years ago) all I had to do was walk into a hospital to get a job.

        2. Heffalump*

          I do CAD (computer-aided drafting). I have a 2-year Associate of Applied Science degree. There was a period in the few years before the great recession of 2008 when drafters were really in demand. I heard anecdotally that some employers were hiring CAD students who hadn’t even finished their degrees. I had already been at my then employer for several years, so this didn’t affect me. If I were a student being recruited, I think I would have opted to complete my degree and become even more desirable, but it shows you the state of the CAD job market at the time.

        3. Twinklefae*

          Exactly. I work in Early Childhood Education. In the early 2000s I went and handed out resumes and FORGOT MY PHONE NUMBER. I had 3 separate places look us up in the phone book to call me for an interview. It hasn’t gotten much better since then. Do you have your qualification? Clear your screenings? Hired.

      5. Dust Bunny*

        A lot of people think this, on both sides of the coin. People either overestimate what their degree will do for them, or they resentfully overestimate what other people’s degrees did for those people. I can’t tell you how many people have assumed that because I came from a middle-class family and went to a “good” college I must have just waltzed into a mid-level job right out of school. Um, no–I shoveled horse stalls and cleaned cages at the vet’s office, because, degree or not, I only had basic service-job experience.

    2. Boof*

      Yes, if mom isn’t asking for advice, they’re in no way going to be receptive to advice.
      Even if they ask for advice they may not be receptive, but it’s at least step 1.
      If LW is so inclined they could mention /once/ “That sounds pretty stressful and serious – hey I heard they have [coaches / EAPs / ___ resources ] for folks who are looking to up their work game, have you tried looking into that?” but if it goes over like a lead balloon unfortunately it sucks but won’t change. If the risk is ultimately financial burdens may land on OP, well, it be good if they mentally thought through what they can/will do and what they won’t, and if they need to lay down any rules about things if/when that day comes.

  11. mango chiffon*

    Frankly if someone has been like this for 25 years, nothing will truly change them. If a manager is not enough to change them, their child will definitely not be able to do that. Best you can do is gray rock if she complains about this to you, but this is not your responsibility.

    1. mango chiffon*

      I’ll add that I have spent many years trying to get my mom off of the “ayurveda and meditation will cure everything” about her chronic health issues and it’s taken many years of arguing and fighting with my dad, my sibling, even her own mom to finally start taking the medication because she had a very serious occurrence that left physical injuries and she finally saw a doctor again. The doctor told her to take medication in addition to doing her ayurveda/meditation; something I’d been telling her for years. It either takes something horrifying as a wake up call, or you’re never going to change that person as a family member, much less as a child.

      1. Silver Robin*

        Yeah there is something about hearing it from your loved ones that makes obvious advice hard to implement. Then, suddenly, when the expert (teacher, doctor, therapist, coach, whoever) says it, ding! It works. I have watched it happen with my partner, I have watched it happen with myself! Is it crazy making? Sure is; after all, it was the same advice. And yet…

        So much sympathy to you and LW, it is so hard to watch loved ones struggle. But until they are actively ready to hear from you (which they may never be!), you literally cannot do anything about it. The advice here to get clear on what you are and are not willing to engage with in the meantime is good. Though some of it may feel awkward and unkind to implement it at first.

        1. Girasol*

          This! It’s standard advice that when a parent needs to stop driving and doesn’t want to admit that, the family should ask for their doctor to assess driving skills. People will face the bad news from a doctor much more easily than from someone they remember diapering many years ago. That could be OP’s situation: Mom may resent advice from her child that she might find herself willing to accept from a professional like a job coach.

          1. Boof*

            I’m going to say as a doctor – it is really so helpful when family is there as backup/support. They certainly can’t fix anything but sometimes can make a huge difference in raising the issues (I only see them briefly in an office, usually mostly focused on a specific problem, if they say things are fine I don’t know to dig deeper) and in helping them stay on track (as much as they’ll allow anyway).

        2. Turquoisecow*

          Yup. I got very frustrated with a friend of mine who was constantly complaining about a situation. I gave her advice. She agreed it was good advice but didn’t take it. Then talked to a random acquaintance and they gave her the same advice. She took it and it worked. “Isn’t it great (acquaintance) was so brilliant to give me this idea?” that I’d been telling her for years? I ended up ending the friendship for many reasons but one of them was that she was constantly complaining to me but never taking my advice toward fixing any of her problems, I got tired of listening to it.

          I’ve had a similar experience with other friends and family but at least most of them aren’t constantly complaining.

    2. Christine*

      Okay, but this is her mother, not a co-worker. Things run a bit deeper emotionally than mere gray rocking.

      1. mango chiffon*

        You can absolutely gray rock with a family member if they are in the middle of complaining to you. I have done it many times. If her mother is always talking about how she is being wronged and LW is expending emotional energy trying to solve their mother’s problem, it is absolutely okay to gray rock and say “wow I’m sorry to hear that” and not offer solutions. If her mother is not going to accept any solutions and LW is distraught over this, the solution is to stop taking the emotional effort to provide solutions to someone who is unwilling to accept that. LW needs to move from thinking this is their problem to solve when it’s their mother’s problem

        1. KnockedIn*

          Just seconding that grey rock method works just fine with parents, having done it myself on many occasions.

          I’ll add one more idea, because sometimes it takes a while for you to get out of the habit of trying to help: catch any sentence coming out of your mouth that was going to include “you should…” and instead turn it into a question, “what will you do about that?”

          My own parent drastically pulled back on complaining to me because my response every time was a completely bland and emotionless “Wow, that sounds hard. What are you going to do about it?” They weren’t getting the emotional response they wanted, and the constant push that it was on them to think of something to do and do it seems to have made them not want to complain to me anymore. Which is a win-win situation, as far as I’m concerned.

          1. Rainy*

            Yup. Some people want you to give advice on their situation so that instead of having to consider how they caused or contributed to their problem, they can argue with your advice, poke holes in your strategy or understanding of the situation, and displace their anger from themselves to you. If that’s the kind of person you’re dealing with, responding “That sounds really tough, what are you going to do?” stops the mental wear and tear you experience as the default punching bag and, even if it doesn’t actually make them stop and think about the situation or their own actions, at least stops them dropping it at your doorstep like a cat leaving the least desirable half of a mouse on your pillow.

      2. Rainy*

        You can 100% gray-rock a family member. In fact, gray-rocking is a strategy that works largely because it allows you to step out of those perilous deep emotional waters.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yep. Gray-rocking is actually easier than “no is a complete sentence” and other common advice. You can do it without being rude, which is often important when dealing with family members.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I have a family member (not a parent, thank goodness) who has been this way the entire time I’ve known them. Decades. Every job they’ve had, they were either fired (because people hated them or were jealous of them) or quit (because people hated them or were jealous of them). And as much as I want to shake them and say the problem is YOU! there is no point. This isn’t something you can convince someone to accept. They have to get there on their own.

      1. Rainy*

        I always think about that quote from Justified: “You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.”

  12. Rogue Slime Mold*

    I am so sorry you’re dealing with this OP, and deeply wish I could tell you the magic phrase.

    (I) want to try and get through to her that maybe it’s not her bosses who are the problem. What if it’s really her?

    In my experience, this is sometimes heard by targets in three circumstances:
    a) The person receiving this advice is bumping up against some repercussions that have them asking themselves “What if the common factor is me?”
    b) The person giving this advice almost never gives unprompted advice, always has the advisee’s back, agrees with them–but not this one time.
    c) The person giving this advice is almost random–they have no pre-existing relationship, no intentions for an ongoing relationship, it’s just “Ha! No mate, that’s not on at all.”

    In all of these, the person has to be open to changing, and to seeing themself as the problem.

    When the relationship is parent/child, there’s basically no hope of hitting (b)–there’s too much past context of who was right about stuff, and does letting someone be right about this one thing call into question whether they were right about all the things for 30 years.

  13. MsM*

    OP, is part of the reason you’re so anxious about this is that if she eventually runs out of places willing to give her a chance, or decides she’s fed up with the working world and isn’t going to try any more, you’ll feel responsible for making sure she’s taken care of? If so, perhaps your focus should be less on how to save this specific job where it sounds like she’s already being ushered toward the door, and more on figuring out how much you’re willing to take on the fallout from her not addressing the things you think are in her control, and how to make it clear to her that there’s only so much support you can provide.

    1. Hannah Lee*

      Good point! And if there is something OP is willing to do to help her mother land in a safe place, if she loses this job and struggles financially and otherwise, maybe pivot attention to that.

      Not to get too much into her mother’s business, but start researching what resources are available for financial counseling, or for people over 55 with limited resources. A local senior community center or counsel on aging may have resources, or someone OP can talk to. Because all that stuff can be tough to wade through, to figure out what’s available, what might be actually helpful, and it’s easier to get your arms around the info, get on the mailing lists, etc before your in dire straights. For example, a relative of mine who had worked hard all her life but missed some income, working years, retirement contributions because she was providing care for her elderly parents and an adult child who went through some medical issues knew she was going to have limited income in retirement. She found there was local senior housing she might qualify for, but the wait list was long. Her daughters were able to help her figure out the application process, gather the required documentation and get on the list so that was an option when the time came.

      With someone dealing with dyslexia and ADHD, having someone who can info gather and summarize could be hugely helpful if the time comes she has to change where she lives, or access other support services. OP doesn’t want to be pushing her in one direction or another, just info gathering. And knowing what’s available might help if OP is anxious about her mother’s future if these job losses continue.

    2. Sandi*

      This was my thought too. I love my mother and worry about how she’ll cope in her retirement and old age given that she didn’t have a great work history, yet she can’t live with me and I can’t support her. My mother didn’t have the same problems, rather she worked in a field that didn’t pay very well, so she has enough saved up if everything goes well but if she has serious health issues then…

      1. A Person*

        No useful advice, just some commiseration. I’m in a similar boat – I managed to help my mom get independent low income housing that’s really not ideal but good enough and she can afford it. But if she ends up needing significant care I’m… really worried. I have some resources but CANNOT handle her living with me.

    3. Gudrid the Well Traveled*

      Yes! Many commenters are framing this as the mom’s boundaries. But it’s the OP’s boundaries that need defining. I like comparing communication to tennis games because of the volleys and the net. op is an observer, not on the court, and it would be bad form for her to leap in and start advising or playing for her mom. She needs to sit on her hands and cheer/groan when appropriate and that’s it. And it would be helpful for the OP to think through future situations and decide what kind and how much help she can provide.

      1. summer breeze*

        I agree. I sympathize deeply with the letter writer, but they aren’t their mother’s manager or therapist. It’s probably a dynamic that took time to develop so might feel normal, but as a reader it struck me as an overstep.

        It’s awful to feel like a helpless bystander when someone is failing, and it’s tempting to think that, if you could just probe in the right way, you might be able to fix things. On the other hand, it’s possible to have genuine insight into our behaviors and still struggle to change them. Too much probing in situations like this can make people feel backed into a corner. They may be worried about letting others down, trying to come up with a palatable excuse when there truly isn’t a simple answer. Who knows. Each situation is different, but sometimes it’s best to allow someone the dignity of room to fail.

        Identifying healthy boundaries is not always straightforward, but it’s a mutually beneficial pursuit. We can’t and shouldn’t try to control other people, but we can offer help and support while maintaining appropriate emotional space (and being kind/clear about our limits). Easier said than done, of course. I wish everyone in this situation the best.

    4. wordswords*

      Yes, I agree with this.

      You can’t change your mom’s view of this unless she really wants to change and sincerely asks your opinion and is open to hearing and absorbing it. And as others have said, that’s often hard for people to accept in any case, but especially from their loved ones; you may simply not be well placed to give her these hard truths no matter how clearly you see them.

      Which sucks! It’s hard to watch someone you love make bad decisions. It’s hard to watch someone you love shift blame and refuse to take steps to address the actual root of their problems, and it’s even harder when they’re complaining to you all the time about it. (Especially if they ask your advice and then don’t want to take it, but even if not.) It sucks to look at someone who raised you and cared for you and think “oh no, I’m the one with the good advice now, and she’ll be so much happier if she acts on this advice,” and see them continually ignore it. But sometimes that’s how it is.

      But what you can do, and what may help to do, is to get clear in your own mind about contingency planning. Okay, assume she never gets the memo here, and she keeps losing jobs and blaming mean bosses and jealous coworkers. Are you worried about your own current living situation, if you’re living with her? Then that’s something to plan options for. Are you worried about her retirement? Then that’s something to plan for — maybe by setting aside a Supporting Mom Fund of savings if you’re in a position to do that, maybe by talking to siblings or cousins or aunts or uncles about collective family safety net plans, maybe by talking to your mom about her retirement planning (even if you frame it in a “you’ve just got terrible luck with mean bosses, and I want to make sure I know you’ll be okay no matter what disasters life throws at us” kind of way). Are you worried that she’s going to be emotionally hurt by the continual job search roller coaster? Well, that’s not your job to fix for her, but you could think about other ways to let go of that obligation on your end and maybe redirect into sharing fun things in her life as a break from work stress. Are you getting emotionally burned out from listening to her complain and not take any of your advice? Then figure out what would help there — grey rocking, keeping work talk to a strict timeframe, changing the subject, just releasing yourself from any obligation to fix it, whatever.

      You can’t fix her relationship with work and her own performance. That’s just not something anyone can fix for another person, and all the more so for a close family member. But maybe you can address some of the other stresses tangled up in it, whatever they are, while you try to let go of that part.

  14. Former GM*

    Just here to say you’re not alone.

    While my mother excel at her career of being a nurse for over 40+ years, she is completely naïve and blind when it comes to dating. She’s been scammed out of money multiple times and just cannot accept what is and is not acceptable in terms of modern dating. I’ve begged, pleaded, attempted to educate, but all attempts have failed and even knowing she’ll never be able to retire at this point, she doesn’t stop.

    So, you’re not alone as a child who just wants to help their parent. I understand the constant frustration and feeling like you’re fighting a losing battle. I have no magic words of advice, but just wanted you to know – you’re not alone.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Oof, that sounds really hard. Sadly, a substantial proportion of people who have been scammed don’t seem to learn anything from it and get scammed again.

    2. Madame Desmortes*

      I’m so sorry, Former GM. I’ve been asked to counsel people in this situation, and there’s almost nothing useful I can say. This is terribly sad and hard.

    3. DataGirl*

      not dating, but my mom falls for scans all the time. There is a reason the elderly are targets. I only hear about it after the fact and try to explain to her how everything is red flags but she just doesn’t listen.

    4. similar*

      This was my uncle when he started dating again. Was very clearly getting catfished, refused to hear it. And got catfished. I could not get past it (losing sleep, worrying about him, etc). My husband was so matter of fact about it – well it will happen once and he’ll learn, or he won’t. Nothing we can do, we’ve raised flags on this.
      It was fake. and now uncle doesn’t discuss his dating life with us. Which, ok fine.

  15. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    “She’s told me that at her current job, her boss was really nice at first and told her she’d be responsible for a lot, and because she was so good at her job, would give her a significant pay increase.
    Fast forward to nine months later and a majority of her responsibilities have been taken from her and given to someone else. The manager says it’s because the other employee is jealous and controlling, but meanwhile, my mom has little work to do and cannot practice skills or show improvement.”
    OP, you have to look at everything your mom says through the same lens.
    Did her boss tell her that she was the greatest thing since sliced bread and would be getting a big ol’ raise, or did she interpret “this is a fast track position to more responsibility and we like to promote from within” as “this is your future.”
    I’m commenting on this because you are looking at the negative things she says when things are about to implode.
    I don’t know that there is much you can do about her current position, but there are more jobs to come. I think one thing you can do is help your mom set expectations at the beginning. Don’t rain on her parade, just have a conversation about how she thinks the wonderful future will manifest. “My new manager is amazing. He said that I will have more responsibility! I will get a big ol’ raise.”
    That’s great, mom. What kind of things will you be doing in addition to your regular work?
    Help her plan to succeed.

    1. Super*

      Thank you. Alison didn’t quite say “your mom is a DEEPLY unreliable narrator and 1/3 of every statement out of her mouth is bullshit” But she could have.

      That prior manager may have told her that she would have a number of responsibilities (commensurate with her apparent experience on paper), and that any person in that role could potentially get a raise. The rest of that was utterly made up from wishful thinking and setting up a future dynamic of betrayal. At some level she knows herself, and that she has to have plausible deniability for in the future when it goes south.

      The bit about the jealous coworker isn’t even 1/3 true. That’s just straight up a lie. She knows the part of the cycle she’s in, and that she needs a story. She may also believe her own lie at some level, that’s pretty common.

      You can love your mom to bits, and also see her very clearly, and just not pick up her baggage. You don’t have to prove your love by believing that the sky is green because she says so. (Here I’m talking to my past self, who was so very drawn to narcissists and thought I had to invest in their irrational feuds out of loyalty.) It’s a tricky point to get to.

  16. Morgi Corgi*

    This is why I’m so glad more people are recognizing disabilities like anxiety, depression, ADHD, dyslexia, etc. and getting help with them. My job performance improved IMMENSLY once I started getting help with my ADHD and anxiety. Unfortunately there’s still so much stigma about around mental health and having a disability, especially for older generations that I’ve noticed there are still so many people who are stuck struggling rather than getting help. It sounds like your mom is just not ready to admit she needs help, and that sucks. My own mother is in her seventies and is only just now acknowledging she has anxiety and depression after years of my sister and I telling her she needed to go to therapy.

    1. HarborFreightBoltCutters*

      Same! After my ADHD diagnosis in my early 30s, my mother was able to connect with a psych and ended up also getting diagnosed in her mid 70s. She was already retired, but worth it for her. Not only does she understand herself better, but is able to more fully enjoy her retirement.

  17. Lurker for 10 years*

    It’s not clear if this has been a pattern for 25 years or is recent. If in the last 5-ish years, its possible she’s had a cognitive decline and needs to be tested by medical professionals. Cognitive decline can be caused by several things and, in some cases, easily fixed. If for the full 25 years, please listen to all the other advice and not mine!

  18. Indolent Libertine*

    Your mom’s primary care doctor might be in a position to evaluate some of this and make suggestions that she would take more seriously when coming from a professional. Obviously, patient confidentiality would prevent the doctor from disclosing any of their observations to you, but they might be willing to hear what you have to say in a phone call, or read a letter that you send to them, and be on the lookout for those issues arising in subsequent interactions with your mom.

  19. Fish out of water*

    OP, this is above your pay grade—which is to say, if she’s going to change, she probably needs professional support. This could look like seeing a doctor, a therapist, a coach, or another professional who can *help her get screened* for whatever systemic issues she is dealing with.

    If she is straight up not willing to see a professional—that’s her prerogative, and at that point all you can do is provide nominal support in the form of listening and holding the line (“This sounds really hard! I still think following up with professional resources might help you.” And then disengaging!) and practice acceptance. If her unemployment starts to weigh on you financially (or otherwise!), that’s when *you* seek resources and get additional support.

    I have had a hard relationship with my 75-year-old father, but in the last year he’s seen a doctor, gotten a major issue medicated, and flourished in a way he’s struggled with for 25 years. It’s never too late to change. But she needs to be willing, and that’s not a choice you can make for her.

  20. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    One of the downsides of having spent so many many years in therapy is that I can see who among my loved ones is going wrong/has something wrong with them. And we’re a very stiff upper lip british family who do not like admitting anything is wrong.

    So one of them has extreme difficulty empathising with anyone else (which cost them their marriage) and has a reputation at work for being cold and self-absorbed. Another has lost jobs due to not showing up and has major depression but refuses to see a doctor about anything that isn’t physical maladies.

    It’s frustrating as hell and there’s been times they’ve been ranting and I’ve shot back with a ‘goddammit what do you want me to say?!’ exclaimation. Terribly un-british.

    My rule now is that ONCE I’ll give them information like a website link but no more than once. After that if they’re ranting or complaining about work I’ll go put the kettle on instead. There’s very little that can’t be made better with a good cuppa.

    1. nerd_bird*

      As an American, I love when Brits comment/write in here! Honestly, I’m going to have to borrow, “goddammit, what do you want me to say?!” the next time one of my parents is ranting at me about some silliness. But I have to ask, what makes that response un-British?

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

        It’s rather uncouth! We’re not supposed to show frustration, fear, anxiety – the old ‘Blitz Spirit’ lives on (at least in my part of the UK). You have a cuppa and keep calm and carry on.

        1. nerd_bird*

          Oh dear. Even when someone is not showing the Blitz spirit when they’re ranting at you?

          1. Silver Robin*

            My guess is that this is fine because it is about a third party, whereas directing frustration at a person in front of you is simply not done.

            But also, no norm is truly fully consistent

          2. Outside Earthling*

            I get this. A lot of Brits would not have this kind of emotional reaction to a parent, much though we might want to. Visits over Christmas are often kept short for this reason.

            1. londonedit*

              Yeah, you’re supposed to do the ‘Oh dear, that does sound tricky, poor you’ thing. You’re not supposed – especially when it’s a parent or when it’s a situation like Christmas or a ‘nice’ occasion – to snap back and be ‘rude’ (which saying ‘Goddamnit what do you want me to say?’ would be). Of course that’s not the case in every family, but generally explosions of emotion are ‘not done’.

  21. StormTrooper*

    I honestly feel like I could have written this about my partner. It’s pretty hard to watch a loved one fail like this at work, and then listen to them blame everyone and everything else. And I chose my partner and at some level knew what I was getting into! At the risk of going full group therapy sesh here, sometimes I wish I could say to them : ok maybe xyz was a problem, but is there anything you can learn from this ( besides all xyz sucks ) ? is there anything you could do differently for next time?

    OP, at least you didn’t choose your mom. as my own therapist once told me (and what Alison is basically saying) : you have to let them go on their own journey.

  22. Not me for this*

    Letter Writer, I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I learned a long time ago that friends and family are often not the same people we know as employees. And just like a parent should not get involved in their children’s employment, children should limit their involvement in their parents’. In addition to AAM’s great advice, would your mom benefit from a therapist? They may have some techniques for your Mom to manage their work-related stress, think through the feedback they are getting while also helping manage the other items (Anxiety, ADHD, dyslexia). If she already has one, maybe encourage her to discuss the PIP and work in general with the therapist. It is possible she might be more responsive to guidance from a therapist than she would be from her child.

  23. asloan*

    About the only thing you could do would be suggest the EAP or counseling. Denial is extremely powerful and it’s frustrating to watch. There’s basically nothing you can do about it from the outside if the person doesn’t WANT to confront it.

  24. Wellie*

    “The thing is … it’s not your job as her daughter to make her see reason on this, and I don’t know that you can.”

    You can’t be your mom’s job coach, but I do think that having loving conversations about patterns you see is reasonable with a family member. I think you should write to a different advice blog. This is a family question, not a work question.

  25. Meow*

    My situation is a little different because my parent has the ability to perform but has consistent behavioral issues that result in them being terminated or storming out of jobs in anger. They have lost many good opportunities this way and unfortunately it’s only gotten worse as time has gone on. Both myself and several other family members have tried to address it but they’re stuck in the mentality that everyone is mistreating them and out to get them.

    I finally had to emotionally detach – I don’t let them vent to me for longer than a few minutes about work and I started saying no to helping them with job searches (I work in HR & TA). In my parent’s situation this has also resulted recently in financial troubles and I had to say no to giving/lending money, which was very difficult because they were telling me they may not be able to pay their mortgage and would end up homeless. Interestingly, once I said no they somehow figured it out and they’ve been at their current job for almost a year without incident now. Sometimes helping can be enabling, and as adults we all need to figure it out on our own sometimes.

    1. Darcy Mae*

      Meow, good on you for saying “No” because I know how hard that was! I had a good friend who filed for bankruptcy a few years ago. There’s no way in hell that I would have let her and her kids go homeless; had push come to shove, I’d have covered her rent. But I didn’t offer, and she figured things out on her own before it got to that point. I figured that she deserved the dignity of solving her own problem. Had I swooped in earlier to “save” her, she might have repeated her financial mistakes again (she has not!) But it was SO hard to not go into salvation mode.

  26. Christmas850*

    This could’ve been written about my own mother. Every word. Even basic probing questions would quickly reveal that she had created a narrative that wasn’t totally true, or had exaggerated or embellished the truth about what was going on at her workplace.

    We had countless conversations. Even when we achieved clarity of mind about one situation, it wasn’t long before another one blew up. She also lost several jobs throughout her life, and even while employed, was often being cautioned or managed through some problem.

    Her medical issues were different than those of OP‘s mother. My mom had manic depressive disorder among other things. She lost her final job at the age of 62, and passed away a few months later.

    My heart just goes out to the OP because you want to solve their problems, you want to help them so bad. But there’s a limit to what we can do. It’s unfair, but it’s the tragic reality.

    1. swanjun*

      I also could’ve written this about my own mother. A dedicated revisionist historian, if there ever was one.

  27. From the far north*

    This was my mother. Her perception of any situation was so warped, everything was easily perceived as against her. Others would view her as so pleasant and happy, but a small critique would bring out a paranoia of everyone criticizing, create a lack of cooperation, denial and indignation by her in the situation which only increased as the job tried to bring her work into acceptable compliance of their needs.
    I don’t have any easy answers here, but consider that your input to her maybe counterproductive. Perhaps you need to back off, there may not be any way to save the current job, my guess they have made up their mind and are exhausted with her, only going through the process. The job is as good as gone, you can only prep for the future interaction.
    I say backoff, because as the more she tells her story to you, the more she justifies her position out loud, the more self righteous she’ll become. Then she can’t change position with her family or work, so she doubles down with indignation to both.
    All you can say in the future is “give it a chance, try to work it out” and quickly leave the subject alone. Don’t be the support audience to “good enough”

  28. AnotherSarah*

    No advice, just sympathy; my mom is very similar and has lost basically all her jobs due to either poor performance or layoffs (where she’s the first to go, for performance reasons). Now that I have my own kids, I’ve realized how looking at patterns and really seeing how x affects y over time is a skill learned over years and years–you can’t teach your mom to be introspective. I’m sorry.

  29. Bubbles*

    Commenting again to stress how important the problem person’s willingness is in all of this:

    My mother has *three* therapists, and still can’t admit that buying alcohol for her son (who has a drinking problem) is enabling an alcoholic. Denial is an amazing thing, don’t drive yourself insane for her benefit.

  30. 2 Cents*

    I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, OP. You sound like a loving, caring daughter. With my mom, she’s ignored certain mental health issues (anxiety, depression) her whole life, using other coping mechanisms. After many years of personal therapy, I’ve realized my own patterns AND hers. But I know it’s a lost cause to tell her. What has helped is talking about how I’m feeling better about what I’m doing for traits we share, like “yeah, I was feeling free depressed every time X, so I saw this doctor/did this therapy/tried this and it’s really been working.” Sometimes she tries it too, and it works for her. Othertimes, she doesn’t recognize that she should. But at least I know I’m doing my best in my own life.

  31. Office Plant Queen*

    I’d encourage her to find not only a job coach, but an ADHD coach too. Assuming that she has a diagnosis and/or realizes she has it. But other than maybe suggesting that, it’s not your problem to fix

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she has an optimistic view of her skills. Because that’s a really common thing with ADHD – on your best days you’re able to do the thing very well, so obviously that’s what your “real” capabilities look like! You could always do it that way if only you could have that level of energy/time/focus. Being realistic is hard when you’ve seen what you can do under ideal conditions. When you aren’t able to repeat it under non-ideal conditions, it’s easy to tell yourself that the problem is your circumstances, not the fact that you have a disability that means your capabilities can change dramatically from day to day and makes it so you get worse at tasks over time as they become routine and boring

    1. LinesInTheSand*

      “I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she has an optimistic view of her skills. Because that’s a really common thing with ADHD – on your best days you’re able to do the thing very well, so obviously that’s what your “real” capabilities look like!”

      I think OP hints that her mom is undiagnosed. Before my diagnosis, my view was “I’m fine, my skills are fine, it’s the standards that are the problem.” I was….not very results-oriented. I only point this out because if the person isn’t understanding that their skills aren’t up to par, they might be open to the idea that their impression of what’s “reasonable” is skewed. Maybe.

      Good luck to everyone in this comment section, we all need it.

  32. LinesInTheSand*

    I have a family member in this boat, and it’s maddening to watch them self sabotage. It’s also enraging when they then come asking for money because they got fired *yet again*. They ask me for advice sometimes and I’ve stopped giving it because it goes so much more wrong than I could ever imagine. If I could wave a magic wand, I’d chain them to a job coach for a few years. Someone to second guess their every professional move and help teach them better patterns. But I don’t have a magic wand.

    I feel for you, OP.

  33. Rey*

    I have worked really hard to not give advice when its not asked for. In two separate cases with people close to me, I felt like I could see why they were getting the criticism from their boss and decided it was worth having one conversation with them where I tried to explain why their boss might have the perspective they did and give some advice for how they could meet the expectations in their PIP. After that one conversation, I reverted back to “listening as your friend” mode unless they explicitly asked me for help. Anytime they brought it up just to vent, I would say something really mild like “I know you’re working hard” or “that sounds frustrating” because at that point, I’m not in charge of helping them find a solution.

  34. Busy Middle Manager*

    Can you push her to look into other career options? Not everyone is built for technical office roles, and it sounds like your mother is just not wired for one. You’re reaching for diagnoses, but even if you get one, she still might not be wired for these jobs. I’ve met and worked with people like this and it is beyond frustrating, they don’t see patterns or errors right in front of their faces, and take an hour to investigate how to do a pretty basic function in Excel, which should be standard knowledge for the role and which loads of coworkers already know.

    My uncle’s girlfriend was like this. We were impressed by her constant ability to find new cushy office jobs, even as if seemed no one was hiring, but she’d constantly end up like your mother. She eventually “settled” for tutoring grade school kids and is doing better because she’s better at generalist tasks where the occasional slip up isn’t a huge problem or isn’t noticed It’s also more relationship based, which she’s better at.

    1. Beyond the sea*

      I have seen this too. Some people are very charismatic and extroverted. They can land any job they interview for, but subsequently tend to loose them quickly too.

    2. asloan*

      Honestly it stinks that “cushy office jobs” are typically the safest option career wise when so many people have great skills in other areas. I wish we had more programs to help identify roles for people who aren’t cut out for jobs like this. But with things the way they are, a job like hospitality vs a job like HR software may not offer similar benefits, salary, flexibility, or physical range and those could all be barriers that prevent OP’s mom from being able to realistically shift gears. It stinks.

      1. Herebutonce*

        Sadly all of this. The truck driving example downthread certainly fits in as well.

    3. RVA Cat*

      Seconding all of this, plus the OP’s mother was funneled into a “pink collar” job that isn’t right for her. That’s particularly a trap for neurospicy women.

    4. Heffalump*

      The late work-advice columnist Joyce Lain Kennedy (1932-2018) once got a letter saying, “I have no trouble getting work; I have trouble keeping it. Employers run me off or take advantage of employment-at-will laws to fire me without giving solid reasons. The people at the unemployment office joke that I know their system so well by now that I should come to work there.”

      No specifics beyond this, but Ms. Kennedy said, “Some people never know what to say to others, and this can be annoying.” There wasn’t enough detail to determine whether it was a people skills issue, as Ms. Kennedy implied, a competence issue, or both.

  35. Beyond the sea*

    OP – I would highly suggest putting up a strong boundary with your Mom. It will be difficult and take practice. Tell you can’t discuss or help her through it until XYZ happens. This can be something of your choosing.

    Examples:
    1. She goes to therapy herself to work on it
    2. She able to complete a certain amount of time at a job without going on a PIP or improving at a job she currently has
    3. She gets her own career coach

    This will be hard, but ultimately this is not your problem as many others have pointed out.

  36. Sylvia*

    My ex-husband also had this problem–everything you describe fits him. Great with people, terrible with details. He also has ADHD, although I think many with ADHD are able to manage it better. One time I asked him, what is one thing that you think you could do better at work? What is an area of improvement for you? He answered that there was nothing he could do better, he did everything that he was supposed to be doing. He was in complete denial and unwilling to seek professional help.

    I wasn’t able to get through to him–the only thing that worked was encouraging him to go into another field that wasn’t an office job and where he didn’t need to be detail-oriented. Truck driving appealed to him, but unfortunately his mother pushed back on that. She said he was “better than that”. (I don’t know what she had against truck drivers, I think it sounds like a cool job.)

    So, he toughed it out in offices jobs for another year unsuccessfully, and then ultimately decided to pursue truck driving. (We were divorced by then.) I hear that he has been working with the same company for a few years, which is a big step forward for him.

    OP, I recommend that you take a step back from the situation for your own mental health or at least put up some boundaries. It’s hard to watch someone go through that–they lose confidence and experience depression with every job loss. But you really can’t help someone get out of that cycle if they’re in denial and unwilling to work on themselves. They need to be the ones leading the change. I spent years enabling my ex-husband, polishing his resumes and cover letters for him, hunting for jobs, and while it may have helped in the short-term, it did nothing in the long term–instead it was a black hole that sucked up most of my energy. I should’ve invested that time in my own career instead.

    1. Not me for this*

      I love that you asked him what was one thing he could do better at work. And his response told you everything you needed to know – totally unaware and unwilling to work to improve.

    2. asloan*

      I see so often in my circle that people would rather do poorly at white collar jobs than excel at blue collar jobs. I guess because they invested a lot in their education and don’t want to admit it was a waste. Also, the former may offer better hours/salary/benefits than the latter but I wish we could focus on making blue collar jobs better on all those fronts.

    3. Heffalump*

      Many people are unaware that there are 2-year community-college programs that will put people into good-paying jobs. They tend to be detail-oriented technical jobs, so maybe not right for your ex-husband or the LW’s mother, but they are out there. I suspect snobbery leads people not to even consider them.

      Here’s an interesting post (the first in a series) by a guy who became a truck driver after a 38-year legal career. In one of the other posts, he said he once mentioned truck driving to another lawyer, and the other guy’s eyes lit up.

      https://www.curbsideclassic.com/uncategorized/making-a-truck-driver-prologue/

    4. wittyrepartee*

      Oh, so… my husband is climbing out of this pit, but he actually had the opposite reaction to your ex. He had ADHD and when asked how he could improve, he was like “I’m just trash and not working hard enough”. I eventually twisted his arm until he went and got a diagnosis. I’m ADHD, I was like “I’m noticing some similarities…”

    5. Non non non all the way home*

      Your story just reminded me of my 20 years with my ex-husband who was constantly getting fired. It was me who had to write his resumes and cover letters. He twice got white collar WFH jobs without admin support, so guess who had to do all the admin support for those jobs? After he got hired from the first one, I told him he could not do WFH again. He just didn’t work when not being directly supervised by someone. I knew what was coming as soon as he accepted the second WFH job. It was exhausting to be the breadwinner with my own job and have to do a bunch of work for another person who was doing virtually no work of his own.

  37. Frances*

    You are a daughter. There is no need to be of help to your mother much longer. She seems to be stuck on patterns that she can’t get out of because she doesn’t speak up for herself when she needs to. She seems like she is in denial of her possible disabilities that she should have gotten evaluated for a long time ago with the help of her parents. As an adult she is responsible for her life. I strongly she get evaluated for her disabilities and ADHD before doing anything else.

    I grew up with a father who was an Accountant and was often changing jobs, getting laid off or whatever else. Everytime he lost a job he often became volatile and treated everybody like garbage and making my mother cry. After my father died I discovered he did something wrong at the beginning of his accounting career that put him in jail for fourteen months. This was before I was born. After that he never really made it to the top. He was excellent in Math but now I realize his money management skills sucked. He just spent money on things that were not needed and things have been sitting in the apartment for years that I don’t know how to even sell. When I think about this I think he was bipolar like his son. He never felt he needed a whole lot of sleep even if he was completely exhausted. He always spent lots of money like it was water. And once he had one thing he had to have more of that thing. And one minute he would be happy and the next minute he would be angry for no reason. He was always preaching this work ethic onto anybody but he was always a genius struggling to find a job to pay debts cumulated. I always thought he was better than this but he wasn’t. His only reason to get a job was his own rich act so nobody really saw him for what he was. He never got help because he never believed in psychologists or counselors. But as his daughter it wasn’t my job to get him help. He sunk his ship.

    Here is to hoping your mother gets the help she needs.

    1. Dahlia*

      “There is no need to be of help to your mother much longer.”

      I think that’s unrealistic, especially if the reality is that OP’s mother might become homeless or need to move in with the OP if she loses her job. Or if OP relies on HER financially.

      1. Properlike*

        In this case, if OP does rely on her financially and wrote in asking about that, we’d be telling OP that she needed to make her own plan to not be financially dependent on someone who was not dependeble.

        It *is* realistic for the OP to draw a boundary on what they will and won’t do for someone who isn’t able to help themselves, which may include detaching.

        1. Dahlia*

          And what if they aren’t willing to draw a boundary that leaves their mother homeless?

          1. knitted feet*

            Then that’s a choice they absolutely get to make. Not an easy choice either way, but still a choice.

  38. toolegittoresign*

    LW, what may be most beneficial, if you have an otherwise good relationship with your mom, is to go to family therapy with her. You will get to have these discussions with her in front of a neutral professional who can help you both navigate this. Focus on the fact that you spend a lot of time and energy worrying about her work situation, and how often she leans on you to complain/vent/etc. The therapist can help you get out of this cycle where your mom complains to you but won’t take your advice. Don’t make it about diagnosing your mom’s issues, make it about freeing yourself from this stress in your relationship. The therapist may be able to help your mom individually as well but get your mom in the door by making it about your desire to keep a good relationship.

  40. Metal Sonic*

    Yikes. This is wildly similar to a former employee I had managed several years ago. She had great social skills- friendly, always made a point to say good morning and have that daily connection with the people in her environment, and came to the office immaculately dressed. People always had good things to say about her. However, working with her was my personal nightmare. She kept making so many mistakes in all of her tasks. I mentally nicknamed her “Amelia Bedelia” because she would always find a way to misinterpret my instructions, no matter how simple. Like, “Convert this Word document to a Pdf and email this to the client”- she would not know how to convert to a Pdf, then, after you taught her how to do it, she would send it to the client and then DELETE the original Word document, which meant we could not edit the document without creating a new one from scratch. I would make her take notes for important processes, and every time I would ask her to do the process, she would look at me blankly and say “You never taught me that.” When I would ask her to produce her notes, she would claim she didn’t have notes, because, once again, I “never had [her] take notes.” I couldn’t trust her with small tasks. I wasted hours coaching her, training her, making binders of hyper-specific notes to explain things like how to address a client in an email. She wasn’t a clueless young adult- she was a woman in her 50s. Things got tense between her and me because I did start to lose my patience- I was doing all of the work for my projects that she was supposed to be doing and expending energy trying to get her to do the basics of her role. She had emails with misspellings, did not check that all parts of a document were included in a report, and never, ever consulted her notes or my binder of notes. It was maddening.
    I eventually took it to HR and after we asked her whether we could make any accommodations for her (we were trying to explore the possibility that she had some kind of condition like ADHD but obviously needed her to volunteer that information). When she had no accommodations to speak of, we put her on a PIP. And she did not understand why- after all, she was always “nice”. She eventually got moved to a different department where the manager there had several other employees and could distribute the dysfunction more readily. And she got put on a PIP in that department as well.

    1. Frances*

      This one reminded me of a person I used to work for. I often had to do her work more often then not. She also had a multitude of health problems that she often was out. She often had difficulty over basic stuff.

      1. Metal Sonic*

        It is the worst thing when you have to do all of someone else’s work. I was working so much overtime just to keep my accounts afloat and started to really resent my admin over time.

        My admin was not dealing with health issues or personal problems that we know of. She was just… clueless. We drew out clear goals in the PIP and I started documenting everything. It wasn’t until I went away on a business trip and she was left to hold down the fort (leaving my boss to manage her) that I was finally validated in the fact that it wasn’t my fault she could not understand basic instructions or remember processes we did on a daily basis. My boss is very blunt and direct (like I am) and my admin just went back to “I was never trained to do that.” Yes, you were, Amelia Bedelia.

        She eventually got laid off when the pandemic hit and my industry needed to start cutting costs.

  41. Hyaline*

    One thing I’m less clear on from the letter–is your mom instigating these conversations with you, or are you trying to bring it up with her? If it’s the former, really good advice here on what to say and how to say it, but also–permission to put up some boundaries if she’s repeatedly raising the same issues and it’s entering frustrating territory for you. It’s ok to say your piece once and then revisit it and affirm “I really don’t have anything better to suggest” if she’s ignoring your good advice. (First convo: “Yeah, mom, that does sound frustrating. Have you tried going over the PIP and really assessing how you can show your boss you’ve hit those metrics?” Second convo: “Yeah, that’s tough. Did you try that ‘go through the PIP thing’ I suggested? No? Yeah, I really don’t have any other ideas. Hey, how about some coffee?” Third convo: “Yeah, that is frustrating, but I don’t think I have anything to suggest at this point.” <–decide if you're open to hearing her "just vent" or if you need to draw a boundary on that.)

    If it's typically the latter–honestly, I think it's probably time to stop trying to bring it up. You can't typically change how someone approaches her work, what barriers she's putting in her own way, or make her see clearly how she's screwing herself over, but you really can't if she's not inviting it or open to it. Maybe the best thing you can offer her is to just be her daughter and spend time with her, giving her an outlet for non-work stuff in a moment that's likely stressful for her (even though she's the one causing the stress). Sometimes we have to accept the people we love with clear eyes to their flaws and self-sabotage and love them anyway. It's not your job to fix her.

  42. Dido*

    I hope you are not financially supporting her when she repeatedly gets fired… she needs to know there’s no safety net to force her to get her act together

    1. Heffalump*

      I wouldn’t bet the ranch that taking away the safety net will force her to get her act together.

    2. Life Resets At 65*

      If OP feels responsible for making sure she’s taken care of financially, it’s good to remember that it doesn’t need to be in the “manner to which she has become accustomed.” It may mean some drastic downsizing, but I’ve seen some really nice subsidized senior housing.

  43. Carrie as in Caraway*

    OP, is there any chance you might be able to encourage your mom to get some unbiased outside advice or perspective? I was in a semi-similar situation with my mom a few years ago. My mom was very good at her job for years, even winning national awards, and then she got a new boss who wanted to make some changes. I do think some of their conflict was caused by the new boss, but my mom also told me about some of her own behavior and responses that she seemed to think were fine, but from my perspective as a supervisor myself were very much not okay. I would have responded in much the same way that her supervisor did if any of my direct reports had decided to do some of the things my mom did. But I’m her daughter and she didn’t want to hear it from me! After a while, it became clear that my mom was on track to either be fired or quit in a rage, neither of which I wanted to happen. What I ended up doing was connecting her with an older friend of mine, closer to my mom’s age, who also did volunteer work with job seekers. She told my mom some of the same things I’d been saying, but my mom was able to hear them when my friend said them. I also think being at the same point in their careers, just a few years from retirement, helped them to connect as well. My mom ultimately was able to find a new job that was a good fit and that allowed her to thrive for the next few years until she retired. I hope your mom is able to do something similar!

    1. Spreadsheet Queen*

      I also wonder if maybe your mom might better be able to hear it from a best friend than from her daughter.
      I also disagree with some posters who seem to think that after 25 years people can’t change. They CAN, but they have to decide on their own how to pursue change. And while, I know that social media can be not great, there are a lot of middle-aged and older people sharing content about their later-in-life diagnoses – and for some of them, the catalyst to seek help was seeing OTHER people similar to them on social media talking about the same struggles they had – like it turned the light on for them. Which is pretty cool.
      But overall, as Alison said, this isn’t something YOU can fix.
      I do, however, hope your mom figures it out. Because of course, we all would want that for our loved ones.

      1. Boof*

        I think that’s just it – anyone can change, but only if they want to, and if the same thing has been going on for 25 years, it’s not clear that they’re looking to change. LW can’t force that, though I’d agree at least once attempting to connect them with an independent resource (ie, someone who helps job seekers and / or ADHD coach who otherwise would seem like a good peer or colleague LW1’s mom could relate to seems ideal) if such is available might have the best chance of helping. Ultimately though it’s going to be up to LW1’s mom.

    2. Heffalump*

      If I’d won national awards, I wouldn’t have been receptive to criticism from a new boss.

      1. Carrie as in Caraway*

        You’ll just have to trust me on this – some of the criticism from her new boss was not fair, true, but some was warranted, and some wasn’t even criticism, but my mom was determined to take it personally.

        1. Heffalump*

          Yes, I trust you on this. I’m saying that I can see both sides. I’ve been in situations where the bar was higher than I’d been accustomed to.

      2. New Jack Karyn*

        It sounds like the new boss wanted to make some changes, as new bosses will often do. Could have been as simple as imposing a deadline for expense reports, or wanting weekly updates on projects. The criticism came when Carrie’s mom responded & behaved badly to those changes.

  44. MuseumChick*

    Late to the party today but this is touching on something I learned about recently that may help in how you approach things. ADHD, Dyslexia and other conditions can have a secondary symptom called Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. Basically, is a disproportionate emotional reaction to criticism. I won’t go into the theories why this is but highly encourage looking into it as it is very interesting.

    RSD, of course can make navigating the vast majority of work places challenging. Is you mom open to discussing her ADHD with you? If yes, it may be helpful to bring up RSD with her.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      Several days late, but OP, if you happen to pop into the comments, please don’t miss this one. It was the very first thing I thought of as well.

      I have ADHD (as does, I suspect, my mom), and learning about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria was mind blowing. It explained so many of my personal, professional, and academic issues and gave me a new perspective on events in my mom’s life (spoilers: the world wasn’t nearly as out to get her as she made it seem). I still struggle to manage it in the moment, but now knowing about the RSD, I’ve been able to practice at taking that initial hurt out and looking at things more objectively when that initial fear/panic/defensive response recedes. Unfortunately, I know several people, including my mother, who haven’t done that work and continue to hang onto that initial hurt feeling forever and struggle to grow as a result.

      You may or may not be able to get your mom to get help or accept her role in her professional struggles. I hope this knowledge can help you, though, in how you respond to her woes.

  45. Jake*

    My father and step mother are a lot like this. I grew up being told to never give an honest self-review because I’d just get anything I wrote down thrown in my face and used against me to justify less of a raise. Well, the reason they said that is that they were a combination of lazy and poor decision makers (at work), so an honest assessment of their performance WOULD affect their raise.

    Now that I’m off on my own and can use my own experience to understand the unspoken context for their stories, I see that they in fact oftentimes (though not always) were the problem. The thing is, there just aren’t very many parents out there willing to listen to their child about stuff like this, so there just isn’t much OP can do. The power dynamic between a parent and their child (even into adulthood) along with the personal relationship the two have pretty much guarantee that feedback running from child to parent isn’t going to be well received.

    I’ve just come to the point with my parents where I just say my honest opinion on the situation and then let it go when they come back with all the reasons their situation is different.

  46. Anony for this*

    Yeah. My situation is a little different, but long story short is that at one point, my parents needed a lot of help financially. My dad was being his usual, difficult self and I had to get really firm with him that I’m going to help him, but he needed to be way more honest and cooperative with me about what was going on. To this day I hate having made him feel small, but I couldn’t do it anymore. Fortunately for me, he got on board — bc no matter what, I wasn’t going to let my parents fall and it was always going to be on me, to a degree, to help fix it.

    2. YoungTen*

      Yup, some parents need to know that they don’t have the luxury of ego. Better humble self real quick or it will be way worse

  47. WillowSunstar*

    The other thing with this, when women go through peri, a lot of childhood issues such as ADHD and Autism can crop up again due to estrogen loss. I’m going through peri myself as a Gen Xer and have had to learn how to deal with brain fog issues that were possibly exacerbated by my hypothyroidism. So if Mom is a Gen Xer or Millennial, this is something to possibly keep in mind. I’ve been reading up on a lot of peri stuff and sometimes these things can get better with hormone therapy, if one can actually get it. Not saying that’s for everyone, of course. But you might want to have mom see a Dr.

    1. YoungTen*

      It sounds like this has been her work outcome for many years, though. It may be getting worse but it sounds like its not new at all

  48. YoungTen*

    I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Is your mom a stick-head-in-sand kind of person in other areas too? I ask this because it sounds like her employment has been patchy at best. Does she have a 401 (k)? Does she have a plan for retirement? Depending on how you want your life to look, you may need to make yourself less available. Right now, it sounds like your mom hasn’t had to improve. It seems like she believes she has the luxury of blaming others (bosses) for her poor work outcomes. However, a time is coming when “just get another job” wont be an option. Unless you’re okay with being her retirement plan, you may need to respectfully let her know that she’d better save either through work or some other means, because you won’t be in the position to fully support her.

  49. Anony*

    OP, I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s really hard to watch. I had a family member who recently retired – and for the last 20 years or so, bounced from job to job. Usually he was let go or shuffled around to a position that was eliminated. He decided on his own to stop taking his ADHD meds, he’s likely on the spectrum but undiagnosed, and he doesn’t take criticism well at all (it’s all very personal). Only as an adult can I see these things and connect the dots of the patterns – why, after a good education, he was never able to ‘climb the ladder,’ why he never had work friends to hang out with outside of work (despite wanting them), why he only lasted 5-8 years per workplace. Aging didn’t help any of it either. The last job he held, he was relegated to a WFH position after making a coworker feel uncomfortable. I think it was a misunderstanding (as he said) but he refuses to take responsibility or accountability for how others perceive his actions – and this bleeds into how he shows up in family life, too.
    It’s really sad to watch. I’ll say: if the opportunity presents itself for you to connect the dots for your mom, that may be helpful…but otherwise, this is something you can’t do for her.

    1. CMOT Dibbler*

      5 to 8 years? That’s not so bad, is it?
      A relative of mine is more of a 5 to 8 months person.

      1. Non non non all the way home*

        I agree, 5 to 8 years sounds like a long stretch for these kinds of workers. I was married to one, as was my sister. In the 20 years we were together, it was rare for my ex-husband to last more than one year at a job before being fired for performance and attitude. His solution was to spend most of those 20 years not working at all.

  50. HiddenT*

    OP, I highly encourage you to check out the book “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. It helped me a lot in understanding why one of my parents is the way they are, and dealing with my emotions toward them.

    I had cut them out of my life before I read the book, and I still don’t talk to them, by their choice, because I made it clear that I am open to communication if *they* initiate it, but their lack of any effort is the root of our poor relationship. But the book has a lot of good advice for meeting your emotionally immature parent where they are, maintaining your own boundaries, and still having a relationship with them if you choose.

  51. Ana Gram*

    Oof, I feel this. My mom is a difficult person and kind of a terrible employee. We volunteered together for a few years when I was a teen and she got fired from that…inasmuch as a person can be fired from volunteering. More recently, she was a CNA in an ICU and was highly offended that the ICU nurses acted like they knew more than her. But they do! And they should! She eventually quit by just walking out after a nurse asked her to change the linens on a bed (which was very much my mom’s job). Apparently, they called her a couple hours later when no one could find her and that’s when she told them she quit. She was in her late 50’s/early 60’s at that point.

    Now she works for herself. It’s for the best. She’s my dad’s problem, not mine.

  52. English Rose*

    OP, I could have written this letter, but about my sister. Three decades of exactly the same issues. It worried me, annoyed me, frustrated me. I tried talking to her about it and getting her to see other options. It didn’t work. Our relationship suffered because of it.

    And she died last year, very suddenly. I wish now with all my heart I’d ignored all the frustrations around the work stuff and enjoyed her company more. Gone to the beach together more, gone on picnics more, gossiped with her more, loved her more.

    Others have suggested you may be suffering financially because of your mom’s work issues, and I really hope that’s not the case. But try not to fix on something you can’t fix. She won’t be around forever.

  53. Josie*

    I wonder if LW is having to pick up the financial pieces but doesn’t want to say this in case it reflects badly on her.
    Perhaps LW can speak to her mother’s doctor so her doctor can assess her or at least probe further at mum’s next visit.

  54. Fickle pickle*

    I know it’s not the point, but a 2% raise is the most my job is giving this year…

  55. Non non non all the way home*

    If she has been working in accounts payable for years and still needs training on Excel, on top of everything else you describe, it really doesn’t sound like she’s capable of doing this type of job.

  56. Ritxa*

    Hello OP, you could be my kids writing in the future.
    I am in the same situation, I am diagnosed but off meds for a year now beacause of pregnancy and breastfeeding in a mostly male team. It’s frustratring, even when in my case it is rare and peaks when things are stressful / lack of sleep/ very valid reasons for being off meds. ADHD turns you blind to past negative experiences maybe list them down, each job the issue making it more easy to visualise…
    But I doubt ADHD gets better with age though…maybe a career switch would be better, lower stakes job

  57. Weavinglibrarian*

    I am a problem solver and my mom just wanted to be heard, not fixed. It took us (me) way too long to understand both sides and not try to fix anything.

  58. Heinous Eli*

    OP, as someone who also struggled to get my mom to see reality for a very long time (albeit about her marriage rather than her career), my heart truly goes out to you. I hope you take good care of yourself and set boundaries as needed to keep yourself healthy. When someone you love won’t listen to you or any other voice of reason, making sure that you don’t get dragged down deep into the abyss with them should be prioritized, but often gets overlooked as you try to help them and put them first.

    A lot of the comments here have touched on some books and resources that can help you. I think that your relationship with your mother may be codependent, or at least have a less-than-ideal dynamic where you are parenting your own parent. That’s not necessarily anyone’s fault and doesn’t mean your mother is a bad person, but it does mean that you may need to reevaluate your relationship and make some changes for the long-term betterment of both of your lives.

  59. Despachito*

    What would worry me if I were in OP’s situation would be that I would find myself in a situation where I would have to support Mom because of her inability to support herself.

    And it would possibly give me a relief if I had a plan for that (how much money would I be able to provide her, and where are my boundaries, e.g. is it imaginable for me that she comes live with me)?

    Otherwise, her circus, her monkeys. I would not be willing to become her sounding board though. She seems to be the root of her own problems, and is probably not willing to recognize that. Life is too short for me to bother with this.

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