open thread – September 2-3, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

{ 1,050 comments… read them below }

  1. Miette*

    I’m a freelancer, speaking with a potential employer (also a current client). Their salary offer is below my floor, but they sent me a benefits value statement to illustrate the full compensation on the table. In addition to the value of things like health insurance and shoir/long term disability, they’ve included the value of holidays and PTO.

    My question: How much should I weigh the valuation of benefits like PTO/holidays in evaluating a job offer?

    1. EngGirl*

      That’s a question that’s going to be really personal to you! I think you have to look at the job and package as a whole.

      Is it work you’re going to enjoy? Will the amount of PTO they’re offering you be sufficient for how you want to live your life? At this point do you value additional money or additional time off more?

      1. Miette*

        Your last point is a good one. I’m at a place (and age) where banking more salary in preparation for retirement is preferable. TYSM

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          In that case, you might want to ask about retirement benefits if they haven’t already shared those.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Bingo. And how do the benefits play out in real life?

        My husband could get long term care for his parent…. at a cost of $2k per month. If that’s not bad enough, the policy ended at age 95. Parent was 97.

        Dental insurance, yea! No, it was capped at $1500 per year. We were better off just putting the premiums in a bank account.

        Stock option plan. Option to buy at $40. Stock never went UP to even $30.

        PTO. After working 12-14 hours per day, vacation looked more like a coma than a vacation.

        I will avoid talking about the medical insurance.

        My punchline: I will never, ever take a job with mediocre pay but “Great” benefits. Ever. He felt like he had been conned. Honest adults don’t do this to each other.

    2. ThatGirl*

      That’s really up to you, honestly, but I have a floor for that sort of thing too – I would expect at least 3 weeks of PTO and 8-10 paid holidays (New Year’s, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving/Black Friday, Christmas Eve/Christmas, either 1-2 more on the calendar or floating holidays). I would only consider it a major perk if I got *more* than that; much less would probably be a dealbreaker.

      1. Miette*

        Thank you–applying this logic to it makes sense. Is it truly a perk worth going for vs. something rote or standard. Thank you.

    3. Xavier Desmond*

      Well I would say that entirely depends on how much you value your holiday and vacation time. I’m not sure you can put an objective monetary value on it.

      1. Miette*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking–ascribing a monetary value to time off they’re going to be paying me for isn’t really as additive as they seem to want me to think.

    4. InTheLibrary*

      The thing about valuating benefits is that is a very personal and subjective decision. It depends on how much *you* value what they’re offering. For me, lots of PTO is very important. I’m OK with a lower salary in order to get the PTO I want. For you, a standard two weeks might be fine, and you’d rather have more cash to use as you want.

      For other things, like health insurance, I would do a dollar comparison. What are you currently paying for health insurance? Will their package (considering co-pays and deductibles, etc.) save you money on that front?

    5. Brainstorming*

      I personally wouldn’t weigh it in the sense they’re presenting it to you. The way I think about it, I’m making the salary they offer whether I take PTO during the year or not. The value of that PTO ends up mentally lumped into my salary. It isn’t like they’re going to pay me extra when I’m on vacation, so valuing PTO as a monetary benefit (to excuse a lower salary) just doesn’t make sense to me.

      Now, is PTO a benefit to keep in mind when looking at job offers? Absolutely! If a company was offering me next to no PTO when another offered a more generous system, that would weigh into my consideration. But they way they are presenting it is a no for me.

      1. Miette*

        This is my thinking as well, so thank you for validating a concern. I’m a non-exempt employee so they’re paying me whether PTO is taken or not, so what’s the relevance of including its monetary value?

        Assessing the value of health benefits is straightforward, and so is what I already pay for my own disability insurance, but I don’t think ascribing a literal monetary value to PTO is part of my equation.

        1. Another JD*

          It counts as a benefit because you can choose not to work for 3 weeks and still get paid for it. Companies budget staffing needs to accommodate PTO, so it does have a cost. If you’d rather have more money and less PTO, you can try negotiating it.

          1. WellRed*

            This. I get paid to take days off. However if what you make now in salary is high enough that may not matter to you.

        2. Snow Globe*

          PTO could have a monetary value if they allow you to roll it over and will pay out unused PTO when you leave the company.

      2. Cj*

        Right. Time off has a lot of intangible value to many employees, but you can’t put a dollar value on it. It’s already included in your salary.

    6. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      I would do math something like this:
      (New Salary + difference in insurance premiums) – (Old Salary – (number of days off * new salary). Once you have those numbers, think about the more subjective stuff–what’s it worth to you not to have do quarterly taxes, not drum up business, etc., add a little for chance you’ll need the disability insurance, etc.

      1. No fun name yet*

        Just Your Everyday Crone raises a good point–as a freelancer, you spend Time (and therefore $$–if not actual $$ in fact) on stuff that as an employee you won’t have to do. It was worth it to me to move to an employee basis and NOT have to deal with billing (and requisite nudging to get paid), marketing, and solicitation.

        I also realized that I hated the record-keeping I had to do as a freelancer for taxes: marketing costs–as well as the costs of doing business (computers, ink, paper, printers, cell phone plan, internet use and electricity use, etc.).

        On the other hand, I’ve friends who have remained in the freelance world specifically because it was worth it to them to do so and write off the costs of all those things (I will note that I bought my last set of tech when I was a freelancer precisely so that I could write it off). Another reason why I went from freelance to FTE basis.

        So–like with amount of worth of PTO time, the value/stress of these other-duties-as-needed-as-a-freelancer is totally subjective and personal :)
        But they should be factored into your decision process.

    7. I'm just here for the cats!*

      One thing I would do for the health insurance is compare the plan you have now and cost you have now to the plan and cost you would have at the new job. If the plans are very similar (i.e out of pocket costs, deductible, same network) I would look at the Monthly costs. If the employers insurance costs less per month than what you pay now you can add that savings.

      1. WestSideStory*

        I would also suggest looking closely at the health insurance package. What percentage do you contribute, vs. what they pay for premiums? For many of my colleagues, a company’s ability to pay for health insurance (in the U.S. where health care can bankrupt you quickly) is a good incentive to get hired as an employee.

        Also, do they offer a 401K, and if so, do they match your contribution? As someone who has worked variously as contract and as an employee, the years when I was actually employed by a company were years I used to bolster retirement funds. If you are already contributing to a SEP-IRA (what self-employed typically use) perhaps run the numbers on whether employment would increase your ability to save.

    8. Rapid Roy (the stock car boy)*

      The “Total Compensation” gambit really annoys me. Its a way of sidestepping the low base salary to distract you with a higher number. What they are really saying is “this is how much it will cost US to employ you for a year.” While that is a real number, it has no value to me in the negotiation. What I want them to tell me is “This how much money will be in your paycheck every two weeks”

      For me, those ancillary benefits are part of my decision process, but only after I understand the potential real dollars in my pocket. I can’t pay off my mortgage or put gas in my car with PTO or LTD, no matter the actual value of those benefits.

      1. Generic Name*

        I agree. It’s like they are trying to justify low pay. There are some instances where the math of compensation does play out in a way that employers are suggesting. My company pays 100% of the employee premium for health insurance. When I was going through a divorce, I all of a sudden had to pay for my own health insurance. I talked to HR and she reminded me that there is no cost for the employee to be on company health insurance. Based on what the company pays per employee, I effectively got a $3,000 raise that year. For other companies, I’m sure the math works out in the opposite direction. Meaning you pay higher insurance premiums, which could cancel out a pay increase, or even make your take home pay less.

        So I wouldn’t put too much stock in the “value” of paid time off, but definitely look at insurance premium costs and even 401k matching.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        I think this is actually one case where the “total compensation” could be useful. I’ve never been a freelancer, but my understanding is that they are responsible for their own taxes, health insurance, etc. So Miette can look at how much money they currently earn/try to earn in a given year to cover their expenses, savings, taxes, health insurance, etc. and compare that number to the “total compensation” the company is offering. (Not a direct 1-to-1 comparison as they will still need to pay health insurance premiums and may not use all of the benefits the company offers, but more useful here than when changing from one salaried job to another.)

    9. Slightly Above Average Bear*

      Benefits are nice and something to consider, but an employer is more likely to change those than the salary they are offering.
      If you have lots of PTO, but the company makes it difficult to use, it isn’t much of a benefit. My husband had 10 weeks of PTO when he left his last job and we’re in a state that doesn’t require employers to pay out.
      If they have great insurance benefits and change insurers during the next enrollment period, you may end up with higher premiums, co-pays, and deductible or your preferred providers may no longer be in network.

      1. Squeakrad*

        Also agree about the PTO and – I would see if you could talk to other employees to see if people can really use the PTO. One of the companies I worked with offered unlimited PTO with the attitude that employees knew when to take it and would take enough to replenish themselves. What actually worked out is that nobody ever took vacations.

    10. Squeakrad*

      I’m wondering if they would include the value Holidays and PTO if you weren’t coming from a freelance position? PTO maybe, but any full-time professional job includes some holidays. So I wouldn’t have that as an added value.
      How many different position I took a job with pretty low pay because the benefits are truly spectacular in moving toward retirement. My and my spouses health insurance Apple we paid, and when I retire either the end of this year or next, my health insurance will also be fully paid For the rest of my life. Given the state of health insurance in this country that means a lot to me.

    11. Nancy*

      Only you know what is best for you.

      I have always accepted a lower salary for better vacation and flexibility because that’s what is more important to me. Others feel differently.

  2. EngGirl*

    Why why why can’t hiring managers/HR be upfront about salary for a position?

    I recently had an interview for a job. Prior to the interview we did a phone screen where we discussed salary and I provided my salary range. We then had a separate email conversation where we discussed that the bottom of my range was about the top of theirs. I said I was willing to entertain the bottom of my range depending on things like benefits/PTO. They said cool.

    I went in for an interview which I felt went really really well. My feelings were confirmed by the hiring manager who started talking next steps with me, and said he’d have HR reach out for a second interview with his higher ups.

    I just got an email this week telling me that based on my years of experience (which is pretty obvious on my resume and was discussed during the phone screen) and their corporate salary structure, the max they can offer me is 11% less than the bottom of my range, which means I would potentially be looking at a paycut for this role. I declined to continue.

    What was the point of this? We wasted everyone’s time! It wouldn’t bother me if we hadn’t had two discussions about salary prior to the interview, but this feels like something that could have been brought up. I based my range on my current salary, experience, and info I’ve been pulling about salaries in our area, so while the high end of my range is a stretch the bottom end really should not be.

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Had a similar thing happen to me recently and it was pretty frustrating. I got recruited for a role similar to what I do now but closer to home, and was very up-front in our first phone conversation about my salary target for making a move. The recruiter indicated that she understood and that my target was well within their range.

      I went through 3 interviews, met the whole group, and was getting excited, and then my offer came in… $5k short of my target. Asked if they would consider going up to my target, that again, we had discussed explicitly from the very beginning, and was told that they were firm. So, a massive waste of everyone’s time and energy. It’s baffling and I have no insight on why companies do this. Recruiters, STOP DOING THIS PLEASE. IT’S WACK.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Recruiters typically have little say in what offers look like. Just FYI. Ultimately, the decision on what an offer looks like almost always originates from the hiring manager. Point your scorn towards them.

        1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

          In this case, it was an internal recruiter, so I feel somewhat justified in being annoyed with her. But point taken.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            It still doesn’t matter. Internal recruiter versus external recruiter. Everyone is at the mercy of the hiring manager.

            1. Me ... Just Me*

              Hiring managers, in my experience have virtually zero input into salary. We can advocate for a higher salary to HR — but really, it’s up to HR and executives to determine the pay.

      2. Parenthesis Dude*

        This is very different than the case above.

        In her case, they based their proposed salary off of a formula. They could have known exactly what they were going to offer before the second interview.

        In your case, they decided you weren’t worth the amount you wanted. The options were you give you an offer below you wanted, or just reject you outright. It makes sense to let you reject their offer in this case.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      They were probably hoping if you sunk enough time and effort into interviewing, they could convince you to take the lower salary. Or there was a miscommunication along the way. Or they’re convinced that the job is so good of course you’d take a pay cut! Or maybe their benefits are really good, and thought they would make up for the lower salary – you did say you’d be willing to entertain a lower offer based off of benefits/PTO. Though you said bottom of your range, not a big chunk below even the lowest number, so I’m reaching a bit with that one, definitely not blaming you.

      Whatever the reason, it’s super frustrating! You’re not wrong to feel like it was all an unnecessary waste of time.

      1. EngGirl*

        Yeah, if I hadn’t given a range it probably wouldn’t have bothered me so much, and I do think they probably have pretty good benefits.

        The position has been posted for over 6 months and is located in a not super desirable area. I took a look at the amount of work there would be for the person in this position to do, and I just don’t see them being able to hire someone in the range they’re looking for with the capability to do the job. It’s also a new role for this company so they don’t have anyone there to train someone new so they’d be starting from scratch.

        1. New Mom*

          The fact that they wouldn’t go up $5k makes me think you dodged quite a bullet there. Especially curios what their yearly increases look like. I’m sorry this happened. I’ll probably be actively job hunting within the next year and will be so frustrated if this happens to me and it seems like it likely will.

      2. Saraquill*

        I’ve been getting similar runarounds when I ask about salary and benefits. The one place which gave me a job offer after being quiet during the interview offered me low pay and skimpy benefits. I didn’t feel bad saying no.

    3. CatCat*

      I feel your frustration. I have been having similar conversations (turned down two jobs over it). The one I’m working on right now with Large Employer, the hiring manager seems to be extremely frustrated with the HR department, who apparently led her to believe she could hire at $X+$12k, but are now only approving at $X because I am like three months shy of some internal years of experience threshold. So she’s firing off a memo about why it needs to be $X+$12k. (I know all this because she told me lol; I’m frustrated but I appreciate the transparency.)

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        This gets really crazy if you leave stuff off your resume to avoid age bias. I have 23 years in my field, but I trim off the first five or so.

    4. JelloStapler*

      Sometimes I still think companies think their position/team/company/food truck Fridays is SO amazing that salary is not as important.

      1. That’s bonkers*

        Had an HR person explain that the competition might offer $3/hour more, but that HIS company holds two all staff cookouts a year – so obviously his company is better. Does make one wonder.

    5. ferrina*

      I really appreciate the hiring manager who called me, told me the salary range up front, then asked if it made sense to continue talking. It was 10k lower than I was looking for so I declined to continue. One of the few times that I felt my time was respected in the job search!

      1. EngGirl*

        Lol that was my biggest problem with this! We had that exact conversation! If they had said “well the range for this position is X-Y and we understand that you’re looking for something at the top of our range, but we don’t think it’s likely that we’ll be able to offer that since at that range we’d be looking for a candidate with 10-15 years of experience, based on your resume we’re looking at the middle of our range, does it make sense to continue?” I would have saved myself an afternoon and I wouldn’t have been left with such a bad taste in my mouth. Especially because the conversation wasn’t “oh my god I need a job!” It was “I’m gainfully employed but looking to maybe make a change in my life”

    6. Voodoo Priestess*

      Good for you for walking away, but yeah, what a waste. I think a lot of employers are still struggling with the fact employees have more options, salaries are increasing, and they no longer are in a position of power.

      Even internally, I’ve been asking for a promotion (and raise). My Director keeps complaining that his hiring budget is out of whack because new candidates want more and that’s part of the excuse for no raise. But if I leave, they can’t replace me at my current salary, so not only will they lose money but they will also be short staffed while trying to find a replacement. But guess who’s looking at other opportunities? Their budget problems are not mine to fix.

    7. Ann Cognito*

      Super frustrating! They probably think once you’ve had a couple of interviews with them, you’re going to be so in love with the job and the people, that you won’t care any more that the range is actually lower than what they told you. Absolute BS of course, and it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth about them, which isn’t good for them either, since if anyone asks, you’ll tell them the truth about what happened. As you say, a complete waste of everyone’s time.

    8. shruggie*

      On this topic……. any thoughts about this as an email response to their explicit ask for my salary requirements? (I hate that it’s over email, on top of the fact that I hate the question…)

      Hi Hiring Manager,
      With limited information about the position responsibilities and no information about the full benefits package, it’s hard for me to name an exact number. I certainly don’t have a firm number to stick to, and am more than willing to negotiate. Can I ask what range you have in mind, and perhaps for an overview of the benefits?

      Best,
      shruggie

      1. Churpies*

        I did this when asked to name a salary expectation and got ghosted. I thank them for ghosting me, because I’m pretty sure I dodged a bullet.

    9. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Well, that isn’t your question.

      Your question is “why did they interview me knowing they can’t meet my expectations.”

      That, I don’t know, and is pointless and wrong. From their perspective, maybe you were good but didn’t know them out of the water, but in that case, I would just not offer you the job

    10. PassThePeasPlease*

      THIS! This could not be more timely, I’m currently very casually looking for a new role and was a reached out to by a recruiter, liked what I heard then did FIVE 30 minute interviews with the team I’d be joining for them to offer me 9% lower than the very bottom of my range (that I had double confirmed was in their range for the position with the recruiter via text before starting interviews). So I just countered 10% higher than the top of my range. I have a specific number in mind that I would need to make a switch and if they don’t meet it I’m fine turning this offer down and continuing to look for something.

  3. ThatGirl*

    Last week I asked about experiences with newly-merged companies with new benefits, so a quick update. We had an overview of the new insurance options yesterday, and the major shift there is that instead of two PPOs and a HDHP/HSA plan, there will be two HDHP plans. The HSA contributions are changing a little too, but in a way that makes sense to me. 

    But the kicker is that the premiums are going WAY down. So I’m sure the company is saving money on this, but the insurance itself will also be very inexpensive — I currently have the HDHP plan, and it runs me ~$120 a month for just me, which I thought was pretty good. Next year the same plan will be $20 a month. Plus whatever I contribute to the HSA, of course, but that’s money I’m keeping – and I was contributing to mine anyway. The cost of our dental and vision plans is going down a fair bit too.

    There are some other changes coming I’m a little less thrilled about (like the bro-ey “winning” culture of the larger company) but I’m actually fairly pleased with this.

    1. DashDash*

      As someone who tends to really, uh, get the most out of their health insurance, I really hope your company is still offering a plan that is NOT an HDHP plan!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Nope. They presented it as wanting to put more back in your paycheck. I know not everyone will be happy about it, but honestly, the math works out OK for most people. It’s just a matter of whether you pay up front in premiums or after the fact for the visit/medical care. (And preventive care and preventive prescriptions are free.)

        1. Amari*

          Man I know this works for “most people” but god forbid you have a chronic illness of any kind. I had a coworker with diabetes and of course she hit the deductible immediately every year. She was unable to take any potential job with a high deductible plan because it would mean she had to pay like 10k upfront every single January! As opposed to a smaller amount, taken out of your paycheck in installments over a year via premiums. So this would mean she probably would have to quit! Not great in terms of disability awareness from this company.

          1. ThatGirl*

            To be fair, the deductibles on these are $2k and 3k. That’s still a solid chunk of change, but it’s not $10,000.

            1. I'm just here for the cats!*

              wow! wish mine was that way. Its like 5000 and I almost make it but not quite. It was really nice (kinda) that January 2020 I had an unexpected surgery so I met my deductible and all of my medications and regular appointments were covered with no out of pocket cost.

              1. ThatGirl*

                Heck my husband has a PPO and his deductible is $1500. It’s not a massive difference, though his is structured differently.

            2. Amari*

              Huh, I wouldn’t even consider that a high deductible plan. I had a regular PPO with a deductible of 2500 once. No wonder that seems fine, then! When you said high deductible I assumed at least 6k and up.

      2. Doctors Whom*

        Depending on the deductible and the OOP max, an HDHP can be a *great* deal for someone who gets the most out of their insurance. The “High” part can be as low as $1400 for an individual and $2800 for a family plan.

        We have my spouse and the kids on an HDHP that’s 80-ish a month for them a family and even if we hit the max OOP, it’s just slightly more than what we can contribute annually to an HSA. The premiums + maxing HSA together come to less than it would cost in premiums alone (before deductibles or coinsurance or copays) to cover them on a PPO plan where I work. (I’m covered separately for other reasons.)

        If we max out the OOP under the HDHP and under my PPO insurance – we still come out ahead by $3K a year in healthcare expenses than if we had them covered under the comparable plan at my work. (I’m doing the math as a family, with all our coverage included, to assess that.) In any other scenario, the HDHP then easily wins.

        Some HDHPs have higher premiums or have the higher OOP maxes allowed by law. If our OOP max were 14K the math would be different. You really have to do the math, even if you are a heavy user of your health insurance.

        1. ThatGirl*

          The deductible is only $2k or $3k depending on the plan, it’s not outrageous. But it definitely involves math to do comparisons.

          1. Doctors Whom*

            I make a spreadsheet every year and model a “best case,” “moderate,” and “catastrophic” option:)

            When we got access to the HDHP 2 years ago (we are in our late 40s now) I was OVER THE MOON. Spousal unit was… confused about why I was so excited about a new insurance plan option.

            I can see why they would be unappealing in general to someone with chronic needs and not a large cash cushion if you hit the deductible earlier in the year than you can build up the HSA to pay it. But in the last two years it’s put easily 12K directly back in our pockets (thanks to two years of low health expenses for us).

            We’ve cash flowed our moderate expenses (we’ve only spent about $1800 this year among the 4 of us) the last two years and treat the HSA as a retirement vehicle. But it’s nice to know I can just keep the records and tap it at any time for reimbursements if I needed emergency cash.

        2. Government worker*

          My HDHP works out to be less expensive annually than the copay plan my employer offers even if you hit the out of pocket max. The out of pocket is the same as the deductible and is $2,800. Seems like a lot of insurance providers are offering HDHPs that meet the requirements to be able to have HSAs but are not that high. The real problem I see is not cost but it discourages getting care that you should get when you haven’t hit the deductible since each doctor visit is pretty expensive.

      3. Generic Name*

        Yeah, I’m the same. I prefer the predictability of the PPO/HMO option. A friend of mine explained the HDHP/HSA really well. He said it’s basically a long game that in order for it to work out in your favor, you start out on that plan when you are young (and presumably healthy) and not using healthcare a ton. Premiums are low, so you put more money into the HSA. Then when you need a surgery or develop a chronic condition, you pay for the larger deductible out of the money you stocked away (and grew with interest!) years ago. Employers who feature these plans typically also pay a certain amount into the HSAs, which can increase their appeal.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      HDHP plans are great, until they’re not and then they really suck. Combined with the “winning” culture, I’m guessing they may kinda suck for people who aren’t young and healthy.

    3. higheredrefugee*

      As someone who has used HDHP/HSAs for nearly 15 years, I think that the keys to them working well is having employers contribute (or at least match) the employee HSA contributions, keeping the deductible AND out of pocket amounts low (I think $3K/$5K on individual is doable), and educating people on when they should also use a TSA along with their HSA. The finances of this works best for larger entities though, and makes me become a bigger believer in allowing for smaller employers to pool their risks together cooperatively since we’re not likely to adopt UHC anytime soon.

      1. WestSideStory*

        I once worked with an author who wrote several expert books on HSAs, her wisdom was that it was most helpful for either folks who had few medical costs, and for those who always had heavy yearly costs – because of the tax benefits.

        With regard to the upfront required for an HSA to be helpful, you don’t have to put the money in all at once – you can deduct it from paycheck or make periodic transfers.

        As to the amount, here is a rule of thumb for those who consider themselves relatively healthy: what amount would you allot each year for a vacation? $1500? $5000? Then it’s quite possible you can bank up to that amount each year without feeling a pinch.

        And unlike the vacation funds, that $$ is deductible from your gross income, and not taxed on withdrawal when the funds are used for health care.

        1. Me ... Just Me*

          So, you don’t go on vacation and instead bank the money for healthcare? — I’m probably entirely missing your point …

          1. ThatGirl*

            I think it’s more a rule of thumb that you can afford to also set that aside for healthcare costs. For me, I’m basically going to contribute the difference in premium to my hsa, and I’ll also get the company match. One of several good things about hsa accounts is that you can change your contribution any time and you never lose it.

          2. ThatGirl*

            I think the idea is more just that it’s an amount you can spare? And with an hsa it’s really just another savings account, you’re not losing the money.

    4. Gnome*

      I’m seeing a lot of discussion on the insurance. I’d like to remind folks that there are other cost factors beyond the deductible and premium. One is the “allowed change” and another is the network. Let me tell you that even in major cities you’ll be hard pressed to find certain specialties in ANY network, which can make a PPO much more affordable because they “allowed charge” for out of network can be much higher. If I could change one thing about insurance it would be that they have to list allowed charge for every single procedure code. Then we could actually compare. I’ve switched insurance to a better -on-paper one only to find that the allowed charge for something is like $2.40 so the other $120 doesn’t even count towards the deductible.

      That said, have a kid with a chronic condition I really miss my $250 deductible plan. Sure, we paid through the nose for it, but we got the deductible by something like Jan 6 and the out of network coverage was great (by the way, lots of doctors in hospitals are not in network even if the hospital itself is…

      1. KoiFeeder*

        I was really, really glad that surprise billing is no longer allowed when my gallbladder decided to try to kill me. Nobody in that ER on night shift was in-network, but it was a “holy hell I didn’t know a gallbladder could get this inflamed without rupture” situation where it probably would have gone if I’d waited even another hour.

  4. Struggling New Coworker*

    I have a new co-worker, Diane. She is in a completely new role for her career and has only been here two months. Despite this, she is very frustrated that she is not further along. I’ve told her multiple times that the learning curve for this job is at least six months and really a full year to feel confident but she is almost constantly frustrated and upset. One thing that she really struggles with is that our supervisor, Sam, gives direction orally and often pretty quickly (although they will slow down or repeat something if you just ask) and Diane can only process instructions she receives in writing. Sam has asked me to take a leadership role on our team (which I want too) so I am helping train Diane. As a result, I often find myself writing out five paragraph emails to explain a task Sam has already explained and that only takes two minutes to demonstrate or explain out loud.

    In addition to the challenges in training, I think I am frustrated because Diane is a complainer. She is constantly complaining about our organization’s benefits (not the best but not the worst) and lack of flexibility. The flexibility seems particularly surprising to me since she was allowed to move her start date back a week at the last minute, she comes in as late as she likes every day, and she has been given three paid days off without using her PTO bank (which she’s not even supposed to be able to access until her 90 day probation is up). I especially don’t mind that she has gotten that flexiblity though, especially because my supervisors have worked with me when I needed some, too. The constant complaining doesn’t really interfere with my work but it does make the work environment less pleasant. (The one other staff person in our space has taken to wearing headphones at all times and listening to podcasts loudly enough to drown Diane out.)

    I guess my question is, my grandboss has asked me a couple of times about how Diane is doing. Early on, there weren’t so many issues and I said she was coming along and that she seems smart and capable (which she does) but now I am at a point where I am wondering if Diane is really a good fit for the job. I believe she can do it, if she gives herself time and space to learn it, but I am not sure she’s every going to be happy doing it. So, what do I tell grandboss next time he asks about Diane? Is there anything else I can or should do to improve this situation?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Be honest with your grandboss about the things that affect you and the training issues you’ve noticed. Her PTO and complaining is probably less relevant, but you have some legitimate training issues that seem worth addressing.

      1. hamsterpants*

        Yes, and one step further is to coach her to take notes while Sam demonstrates. If needed, coach her to ask Sam to slow down so she can take notes. Or she can use the Teams voice transcription feature if it helps her.

        We all learn differently and she needs to learn to advocate for herself and learn to succeed in different environments, not just expect you to be her translator. Or if she needs an ADA accommodation, that request has to come from her.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          This is probably not Dianne’s issue (you would know by now, likely- I’ve been told it’s very obvious in me!), I’m just hopping on because it’s a genuine question I have. My verbal language processor sucks! I cannot process verbal language and perform a task, which makes it flat-out impossible to take notes from what someone’s saying. I picked a data entry job where I do not typically get spoken instruction and stay in my closet and do not interact with people (which makes me very happy). But if that wasn’t the case, would the proper course of action be to ask for an ADA accommodation, or would there be steps I could take prior to that?

          1. hamsterpants*

            You can definitely ask for an accommodation if you think it will help you without invoking the ADA. The ADA is just a legal framework to compel the employer to work with you. If you decide to take the ADA route for whatever reason, there are some conditions that need to be met, so you might prepare that collateral first. For example, you might be asked to provide medical documentation that you have a disability that needs an accommodation, and the accommodation you request must be “reasonable.” The expectation is that the accommodation will allow you to fulfill the key aspects of your job.

      2. Still don’t have a name*

        This makes a lot of sense to me. I also process things much better when they’re written down, which means I take a lot of notes and sometimes need to slow down the conversation to do so. But that’s my responsibility, and the act of writing helps me to process what I’m learning anyway. Put that back on her.

      3. Hannah Lee*

        ^ this!

        A) it shifts the ownership of capturing the task details to her, instead of you trying to capture things in just the right way for her to get it.
        B) just the act of paying enough attention to take notes can be a valuable part of the learning process. Plus, as you go through it, she can ask questions if something isn’t clear.

        If she asks about it again, you can refer her back to her own notes, and ask her to point out what part isn’t clear, so it’s not like you’re starting from ground zero repeating yourself.

      4. Quinalla*

        Yes, came to say this. She needs to take her own notes during instruction and potentially write her own little reminders, etc.. It’s fine to give her things in writing a little more than normal if it makes sense, like maybe sending her an email for a quick request instead of stopping by her desk, and of course point her to any written documentation you have, but you shouldn’t need to write 5 paragraphs for her on something that takes a minute or two to demonstrate.

        I get it, I’m one of the few that will actually read directions/documentation and learn how to do the thing that way, but most people honestly don’t work like this and she needs to make adjustment on her side too!

      5. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ^^This. Psych101 told us of studies (plural) showing that people who took notes tested better on basic recall than people who did not — even if the note takers never looked at their notes again.
        (Admittedly I took Psych 101 a long time ago, so I defer to anyone with new, 21st century research.

      6. Jaydee*

        Visual processer with ADHD here, and yes…she should absolutely taking notes when she receives assignments or instructions orally.

        That said, is there a benefit to having written instructions and procedures? Could you take some of these emails you’re writing and turn them into an official procedures manual? That might make them a better use of your time because they would be available for any trainer and any new hire in the role rather than just for you and Diane.

        1. hamsterpants*

          I hear this recommendation from time to time. I find it really surprising! Are there workplaces where people really do the exact same thing over and over again? Everywhere I’ve worked, the majority of work was new or at least different enough that writing down every possible case would be a huge endeavor — a full time job of its own. Systems were constantly being updated so notes from a year ago would be hard to apply to today.

          1. slashgirl*

            Libraries. And while the programs can be updated, they’re not often drastic changes, so yes, they have manuals (online, though one could print them off). We used to use Alexandria and LTs in our board have limited time–so if there was a procedure–like getting ready for the new school year (updating/importing student info)? I’d write up the step by step instructions with pics of the screen. In 20 years I only had to really do major changes to it ONCE–and that’s when it went from client to web based about 3 years ago. Before that–I sent the same document out every year. Then I updated it and sent the same one for the next 3 years….

            I’m sure there are other jobs/industries where this is true as well.

          2. Curmudgeon in California*

            No written process is no process. Yes, people do the same thing over and over. Moreso, several different people need to do the same process repeatably.

            Example: Monthly patching of operating systems. There are certain steps that need to be taken, including filing change requests, and they are mostly the same each month, but change in the systems that it applies to, so it can’t be totally automated.

            Every time stuff changes, you update your written process. When you get audited by someone like the FDA, you had better have written procedures for everything you do that isn’t troubleshooting. Bring up a system? Procedure. Patch a system? Procedure. Decommission a system? Procedure.

        2. Peonies*

          I feel like I might be Diane, except that I have definitely not complained to anyone about a lack of flexibility.

          I have a new job with a lot to learn. My new office wants things done in very particular ways (for good reason) and there’s just a lot to learn.

          And I am very much someone who learns from written materials where my boss is someone who very much trains by example and does not build in time for note taking though she does pause briefly if I reach for my paper and pen. (She is not visibly impatient when I do this, but I get the sense that she doesn’t see much value in it so I try to just make a few notes quickly and fill in more later, relying on my memory.)

          They do have a manual, but parts of it are outdated and it’s not obvious to me as a new person which parts are current and which are outdated so it’s not all that useful. Also some daily tasks are not really covered in the manual—some not at all and most not in enough detail to complete the task based on the information in the manual.

          I am doing my best to take notes and to go back and flesh them out for myself whenever I have time. One disadvantage of this is that if I misunderstand something, it’s getting enshrined in my notes. And another is that because they are my personal notes, they won’t benefit any future trainees where up-to-date instructions with more detail straight from management would.

          I figure it is their choice on how to use their (and my) time and how to train people so I am just doing my best to adapt, but I do sympathize with Diane.

    2. JumpAround*

      I had a Dianne once.

      I would talk to Dianne first. If she’s complaining about a lack of flexibility ask her what specifically she’s referring to. Be frank with her if she says something that’s not likely to change. I would also tell her to take any issues she has with the benefits up with your supervisor.

      As for your grad boss it depends on the relationship. If you know them well you could send a bit of a message in a bottle “I think she has the capability to do this job well, but I’m concerned that she’s not going to be happy here in the long term because of X.” I would also talk to your supervisor about it first so they don’t get blindsided

    3. Melanie Cavill*

      If she requires written instruction, perhaps suggest to her that she’d be better served taking notes?

    4. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      Are there not written procedures? If you’re writing up tasks for her, maybe collect those as the foundation of an office procedures manual. I see other people saying require that she take notes, but I don’t see the sense of that. If it’s going to take 5 paragraphs for you to write it down, it’s going to take 5 paragraphs for her to write it down, so it’s not going to save time. It may help her remember better if that is an issue. Screen shots are helpful for that kind of stuff, too.

      I do think that for the training period, people need to accommodate those kinds of processing differences (and as I said, it seems like they should be written down somewhere anyway, though obvsly there may be factors there that make that less true). I’d look at some of Alison’s script for dealing with soft skill issues to address the complaining.

      1. English Rose*

        Yes, this! It’s become glaringly obvious to me in the last few weeks while we induct a new team member without written processes. That’s down to me, I’ve just not done it.
        But concise written processes (not War and Peace!) would have really helped supplement the new team member’s own written notes and given her something to refer back to.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          Exactly. There are a lot of people who need written processes. A bulleted list of steps is usually all that’s needed, not a novel. IMO, if some thing that is done regularly only lives in people’s heads it’s guaranteed not to be consistent, and may be problematic if too many of the wrong people leave (or get sick with Covid.) Write. It. Down.

      2. Despachito*

        I’d see the sense in her taking the notes in that it is HER who does the effort, instead of expecting other people to do it for her.

    5. Data Nerd*

      If she’s still in her probation period, it’s best for all of you if you don’t drag this out, no?

      1. WellRed*

        I agree here. Complaining about all that stuff in your first couple of months is a bad sign of what’s to come.

    6. OhGee*

      I actually don’t think it’s a problem that she needs detailed, written instructions rather than quick, verbal ones, especially a few months into a new job. Some people do better with written requests (I am one of them, and I’m an associate director with 20 years experience in my field). But the complaining needs to be addressed right away.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Part of the problem is that detailed, written instructions for a new job or process can take a *lot* of time to do well. I’ve written software manuals. Writing the manual, for code I had written, with all the instructions and illustrative diagrams, took as long as writing and debugging the software did in the first place. Verbal instructions are a back and forth, while written instructions have to be complete on their own, and because you can’t point at what you’re doing as you do it, you need diagrams too.

        If this is what’s needed, the OP needs to go to their own manager and make sure that it’s okay for them to pause training Diane for a while, write up a manual for the job duties, and then restart the training.

        If it is true that the effort of a written manual would be worth it in the long run, it’s probably better to write it slowly over a period of months, with time for revisions and input from other people.

        1. hamsterpants*

          I want to add (or maybe emphasize) that written instructions put the onus for completeness on the people doing the writing, while verbal instructions make it more collaborative. Readers are passive; listeners have the opportunity to ask questions if something is unclear. Verbal instructions, to me, feel like a handoff or at least a partnership, whereas writing feels more like the writer doing a lot of mental labor and the reader doing very little.

          If your dedicated job is manuals and documentation, then there is no problem. But at my old toxic workplace, writing up manuals was b*tchwork that was dumped on the lowest-ranking members of the team. It was non-promotable work that we were expected to do on top of all our other duties. Higher-ranking members of the team would refer to the manuals and then, if any issue occurred, point fingers, even if the higher-ranking member had the background to know that there was an accidental omission in the manual. (Or even more likely, they’d fail to read the manual and ask questions that it already covered. You became an on-call assistant for people who should have known better.)

    7. Observer*

      Be honest with your boss – in both directions. Don’t specify that you are questioning her fitness, but just that you see x, y, and z problems.

      Ask her to cut back on the complaining. The issue is not whether she is right or wrong (although I get what you are saying about it seeming to be overly negative for the circumstances). The issue is that the complaints are not productive and they make things unpleasant in the office.

      Start putting together a set of instructions and explanations for her and have her refer back to them as needed. This is still a lot of work, but at least it will mean that you don’t have to re-do stuff as much.

      Also, this is probably the most important issue you need to tell both your boss and your GrandBoss. Because it may not be practical to have a situation where someone only ever gets instructions in writing. On the other hand, there may be a way to make it more practical – eg if Sam gets speech to text on his computer and he dictates his instructions and sends her an email or something, that might work. But whatever happens this is a significant work issue that needs to be addressed.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        The instruction thing indicates that a procedure manual is probably in order.

        The complaining thing needs some shutting down or redirecting. “Yup, I hear you, but that’s not something I have control over. You can ask HR about that.” “Yup, I hear you again, did you talk to HR? No? Ok, then let’s move on.” “Yup, heard that already, not gonna talk about it again.”

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Tell the grandboss what you see, NOT what you believe will happen sometime, if ever.

      People can be smart and capable then chose not to use those assets. It’s nothing you can control nor fix.

      Early on I went by people’s potential. This meant I got stuck with some poor workers. The real gauge to use is how they are actually doing.

    9. orchivist*

      there’s also a chance that this is a disability thing. If I am taking notes I literally can’t think about questions I might have to ask because all of my “brain space” is taken up with note taking. Could Sam, the person who’s giving directions, do some of the instruction-writing?

      Also, have you talked to Diane about your concerns? if you’re functioning as a supervisor/trainer, it would probably make sense for you to talk to her about these issues before your grandboss. Make sure she knows that the grandboss asks you for status updates and be honest with what they would be, and what might help improve them.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        This. I do have a hard time listening form comprehension and taking notes at the same time. I ask for lots of repeats, and then I share out my cleaned up notes as a procedure for the next victim … er … trainee.

    10. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Is there a manual or some material that is written for trainees or are they all supposed to just watch and listen? There should be something that new folx can refer back to.

      Is everything that Diane needs to be written down? For example, if Sam says “Files that have to do with teapots need to be in the hot drinks file with Year, Month, Day format instead of month, day, year format.” That shouldn’t need to be written down, and if it does she should be able to write it down in the moment. However if its something more complex, like how to create a file and link it to a customer account in your sale system, that should be written down someplace for people to reference,

      When it comes to Diane feeling frustrated she isn’t coming along further explain your own training and how long it took you. If you’ve already done this maybe just ignore it? You are not responsible for managing her feelings and she can feel frustrated. If it takes away from work or from you training her, or if she keeps mentioning it I would say “You’ve mentioned that you wish you were further along. This type of work might be different than your past jobs and it takes longer to be at full speed. I don’t know if you realize how much you are complaining about this, but it is detracting from our work/training. Is there anything myself or Sam can do? if not I need you to focus on this.” This type of wording might help with the complaining too. Also maybe add in that it is unproductive and is distracting for others. I think as you being her trainer you have some authority to speak with her.

      however I do think you need to be truthful with your grandboss. I hate to say it but if she is complaining as much as you say she is, and about things like benefits and flexibility when she has been at the company less than 3 months, how much worse is she going to be later on?

    11. Ann Ominous*

      I’d address each complaint as if she meant it on purpose (instead of treating it like background whining to be ignored).

      Her: the company sucks, such a lack of flexibility.

      You (in a light and even tone): I am surprised to hear that, can you say more about what you mean? I ask because I’ve seen them be really flexible for me, you, and others. Is there something in particular you’re thinking about when you say that?

      Basically call her on each comment. Some scripts that occur to me:

      “Is there something specific you’re looking for that you’re not getting?”

      “You bring up multiple comments every day about concerns you have with the company, but when I address them, you continue bringing them up. Is there something you’re else hoping I will do with that information?”

      “I’m not sure if you realize but you make negative comments many times a day, every day. You’re bringing me down, bitch. (Ok don’t say that last part)”

    12. Curmudgeon in California*

      I’m one of those people who literally can’t remember oral instructions reliably. TBI, ADHD, and stroke can cause that. It is a know issue, and you guys need to work out how to accommodate it. But I have no compunctions about asking for instructions in writing – either in slack or in email.

      I also take notes – but I miss stuff if the person I’m talking to talks too fast. Again, I have enough chutzpah to ask repeatedly for repeats.

      The upside to all this is that once I have it in writing, I can do it, repeatably, and add to the notes any gotchas or issues I find. Then I take that and format it for the team Wiki, so thjat the next person learning the job doesn’t have to start from noting, and the trainers can say “If you need a written guide, it’s at …”

      If a person needs stuff written down, and knows it, then you are best done to write it down, because otherwise you are setting them up to fail.

      If I had a boss that refused to write down complex processes and expected me to learn them from a fast explanation and fast demo, I would be very salty very quickly. Because due to my memory issues I can’t absorb enough data in a quick presentation without notes and repeats.

      Even RCGs can have this issue. TBI and MTBI are very, very common, and not enough attention to the problems they can cause sets a lot of sufferers up to fail. TBI and MTBI can happen due to sports, car accidents, falls, or any other incident where a person can be concussed. Concussions are often underdiagnosed, and a person can have one in childhood that they don’t even remember. (See https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/ for more.)

    13. Dragonfly7*

      I am also someone who learns best by taking notes as I go, even if I never refer to them again, and even if written job aids already exist. New Job explicitly forbids taking notes, and the pace of training is too fast to take them and still keep up anyway, but that’s my own problem to figure out.

      Would it be at all helpful to Diane if Sam or you filmed or did a screen recording of the task for her to refer back to? My absolute favorite vendor at my last job had a set of short captioned videos, ranging from 30-90 seconds long, demonstrating different tasks for their product.

    14. Peonies*

      I feel like I might be Diane, except that I have definitely not complained to anyone about a lack of flexibility.

      I have a new job with a lot to learn. My new office wants things done in very particular ways (for good reason) and there’s just a lot to learn.

      And I am very much someone who learns from written materials where my boss is someone who very much trains by example and does not build in time for note taking though she does pause briefly if I reach for my paper and pen. (She is not visibly impatient when I do this, but I get the sense that she doesn’t see much value in it so I try to just make a few notes quickly and fill in more later, relying on my memory.)

      They do have a manual, but parts of it are outdated and it’s not obvious to me as a new person which parts are current and which are outdated so it’s not all that useful. Also some daily tasks are not really covered in the manual—some not at all and most not in enough detail to complete the task based on the information in the manual.

      I am doing my best to take notes and to go back and flesh them out for myself whenever I have time. One disadvantage of this is that if I misunderstand something, it’s getting enshrined in my notes. And another is that because they are my personal notes, they won’t benefit any future trainees where up-to-date instructions with more detail straight from management would.

      I figure it is their choice on how to use their (and my) time and how to train people so I am just doing my best to adapt, but I do sympathize with Diane.

    15. starfox*

      Look, I have poor auditory processing due to my ADHD, so I get it… but it’s also on ME to manage, not on someone else to write out detailed instructions for me. That means I carry around my planner and write things down immediately… Maybe she could even ask to record meetings (with permission from all parties).

  5. hamsterpants*

    How can I give constructive feedback to peers that their attitudes make me want avoid working with them? My company does annual anonymous feedback and I’ve been asked to give feedback on around ten people, which is typical within my team. I’m a woman in a male dominated workplace and am hyper aware to how women especially get policed over being “nice,” so I want to apply the same standard to my make and female colleagues. Of the two people to whom I want to give attitude-is-bad type of feedback, one is male and one is female. The guy talks down to me and the woman calls people stupid behind their backs.

    1. Volunteer Enforcer*

      Since they are peers, I’m afraid you don’t have the scope to ask them to improve their attitudes. You can only speak up if any approach(es) affects your ability to do your work. This applies whether you are all managers or individual contributors. I’m sorry.

      1. hamsterpants*

        I was literally asked to give them feedback. It’s part of my company’s standard annual evaluation procedure.

        1. Hannah Lee*

          I’ve been asked to do that RE colleagues as well. It’s a typical part of any evaluation that uses 360 feedback.

        2. Lydia*

          I think if you stick to factual representation for both of them, you’ll be all right. “John Boy frequently comes off as condescending when asked a work-related question. This has led to his peers avoiding him when a question comes up. It would be helpful if John Boy approached answering questions as part of the collaborative process of the work we do.” And then something similar for Jane. Keeping it focused on what you observe and the problems it’s causing can mean your manager can give the feedback without it being misinterpreted as an interpersonal thing.

    2. TKZK*

      I have an ethical problem with anonymous negative reviews of anything, even when it’s solicited by management. I suggest you find a way to communicate your feelings directly to these two people. Maybe after the anonymous complaint window so that you don’t prompt them to write nasty things about you!

      1. Lydia*

        Because they’re peers, making it anonymous protects the OP from being singled out. It’s actually a good thing.

      2. Observer*

        And I have an ethical problem with making people give their names in this kind of situation. Because people very often CANNOT (not just WILL not) give completely honest information if they have to provide their names.

        1. Generic Name*

          I’m guessing the social rule of not gossiping or talking about other people behind their back mixed with a side of “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”.

          1. Me ... Just Me*

            It actually could be the hard-knocks rule of “if you don’t have the stones to say it to their face, you don’t deserve to say it at all.” — which, obviously is why the anonymous 360 feedback was created.

    3. Hannah Lee*

      I wouldn’t worry about keeping the feedback same-same, because the behaviors are different:
      The name-calling behind people’s backs is one kind of behavior – disrespectful, but presumably out of earshot of whoever she’s talking about. And it doesn’t sound like she’s insulting you to you. Do you get a sense of her just venting under her breath in response to a frustrating situation? If you’re in a high-stress environment, that might be one to let go. But if she actively trash talking others, then can you say something like “April often speaks in derogatory terms about co-workers, creating an environment of disrespect and distrust” (or whatever the negative impact is)
      With the guy, it’s a “Robert is dismissive and disrespectful to other employees, talking down to them and disregarding their input, even when they are SME’s. As a result …team members avoid sharing info with him, he talks over others’ input, ignores important info, and the team has made xyz missteps as a result, it creates unnecessary tension and hampers collaboration” (or whatever the specifics are)

    4. EngGirl*

      For the guy who talks down “sometimes frank can come across as condescending towards others, which is really off putting”

      For the woman who calls people names “Jane doesn’t always foster a sense of goodwill and community in the office, and I’ve observed her calling coworkers names behind their backs”

      I will say for the one I named Jane, I’d take about of a look at how she’s doing it. Is she mouthing off that coworkers are stupid and lagging about it? Or is she very frustrated and muttering to herself that a coworker is dumb as a cathartic release quietly at her desk?

    5. Observer*

      The guy talks down to me and the woman calls people stupid behind their backs.

      If that’s your main issue then I can’t see how calling either of them out could be considered “policing over being nice”. Both a flat out rude and I would hope that ANYONE would be called out for that.

      If men get away with calling people names behind their backs, or women are allowed to talk down to people, you’ve got a toxic culture anyway.

    6. RagingADHD*

      The constructive feedback for both would be about cultivating and displaying respect for coworkers.

      The core issue here is the same for both – disrespect. One is disrespectful to people’s faces, with tone and a condescending attitude. The other is disrespectful behind people’s backs, but involving other people, by insulting her coworkers.

      Two different manifestations of the same problem.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And both lead co-workers to avoid them. Robert because none of us want to be talked down to. Jane because she talks about everyone behind their backs, so anything I say to her could be her next snark.

    7. Curmudgeon in California*

      “Joe has a problem where some of his comments come across as condescending.”
      “Jane has a habit of making derogatory comments about people who are not present.”

      None of that is gendered. It names the problem and why it’s a problem. You could switch the genders and they still would make sense.

  6. Shearshucker*

    (Thinking a bit more about what Alison said yesterday about a whole lot of things, mostly about dealbreakers, and how things have changed once you see greener grass.)

    My question for you guys: Should I find a new job, or am I whinging about something that’s not too bad?

    I’ve been working for the same company for about twenty-five years (with three job transfers/promotions). I’ve been in the same position of llama shearing tool sharpening and maintenance for the past ten years and there’s nowhere else for me to ascend here, nor any desire to. For me, this is Just a Job. It is not my career. (My career involves making beautiful sweaters out of angora rabbit fur I’ve harvested ethically and sustainably. Yes, I will be sharpening my own tools.)

    I think I am sick of where I am at. It’s not so much the place I’m at, but that I am so totally over sharpening llama-shearing tools for other people. If I was ten years younger, I’d probably jump ship for another job that didn’t involve sharpening llama-shearing tools.

    But here’s the thing. If I stay and sharpen tools for the next five years, financially, I’ll be able to retire early. (When I say “retire”, I can officially quit from the workforce, go get a PhD in angora fibre techniques and spend the next fifty years making sweaters without having to worry if my Etsy shop is turning a profit (a difficult thing).

    Five years. Then I can retire.

    Where I work, in and of itself, is not a bad place. I make a competitive wage. I work with an excellent team and my managers manage well. I enjoy a good reputation. I’d be hard-pressed to find another job with such good team dynamics. This team is why I haven’t left yet.

    But I am at BEC stage with sharpening llama shears. It drives me nuts. I’m totally over sharpening shears. I will never work another shear-sharpening job ever again. I’d love to jump ship to another field or career.

    However… that means I’d either have to take a salary cut, thus prolonging my working life another few years, upskill for a career I don’t intend to keep for long, or… I dunno. Angora sweaters aren’t a profitable option at this stage or I would have abandoned the day job for them three years ago.

    I hate sharpening shears.

    So, should I suck it up for another five years, loathing what I do every day, or do I try to find another job in another field, risking a lower salary and no promise of a functional toxic-free team, just to get away from shears?

    1. Overeducated*

      Neither of the above? Stay at your job while you keep looking for opportunities to do something else that at least don’t require a salary cut? If you went into something adjacent rather than completely new, you might be able to make a lateral or even upward move rather than downward. I find it hard to believe those are definitely your only two options, but you have a safe place to search from while looking for that unicorn.

      But if they are your only two options, it’s ultimately an emotional decision – would you trade fewer years of work you loath for more years of work that’s so-so? This is about what makes you happiest, or least unhappy. It’s not really a pros-and-cons choice.

      1. snowyowl*

        I’m definitely with Overeducated.

        I would look at job opportunities and get a feel for what’s out there — I think that will help you decide how to proceed. Maybe you’ll find something that seems exciting and then just consider how you feel mentally and emotionally about that versus where you are. It’s also possible you’ll take a look around and everything else will also fill you with dread when you consider actually doing it day to day.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This… you are tired of sharpening those shears but could you summon interest enough to train new hires in the sharpening department? To recruit those new hires? Write manuals about shearing? Would you be interested in selling shears or shear sharpening systems or shear-sharpening services?
        (Phew I just generated a new tongue twister)

    2. JumpAround*

      While there may not be upward mobility at your job, is there lateral mobility? Like can you talk to your supervisor and see if it would be possible for you to trade some shear sharpening work for something else in the organization to keep you engaged?

      It sounds like you’re more bored and kind of restless than anything.

      1. Me ... Just Me*

        Great answer! This is something my husband and I have discussed for him. He’s 7 years out from early retirement as a Llama Manure Spreading Manager. He works for a very large company in our state and is so very “over” his position. He’s looked for a lateral move to become a Llama Manure Spreading Manager in a different part of the state for a change of scenery, but no openings are available. We’ve recently been looking at openings in other departments that he might be able to pivot into, even if they are a reduction in pay/job level — just so he can maintain employment with this same company and retire in 7 years, as planned. He’s had offers for more money outside of his company, but that would mean leaving the dream of retiring early behind, and it’s just not worth it.

    3. ASW*

      Oh boy. I don’t have any advice, but I could have written this, right down to the Etsy shop that doesn’t yet (and may never) make enough to live on. I’m in exactly this situation, but with more years to go. Been in the same job, same position for almost 10 years, no desire to move up, completely tired of dealing with everything, contemplating changing careers, but not sure I can manage the big pay decrease that would require. My options are to stay and retire early (which could still be 15-20 years away) or leave and have to work another 25-30 years while potentially ending up even more unhappy than I already am and still without enough time to do what I really want (the Etsy shop side business). Looking forward to seeing what advice you get!

    4. Two Dog Night*

      What Overeducated said. It might take you longer to find a job with the same (or higher!) pay doing something different, but it’s definitely possible. Five years is a long time to do something you hate. Think about what parts of your job you enjoy and see how you can leverage those skills into something that doesn’t involve shear-sharpening.

    5. Gyne*

      This is such a personal question, with no actual answer.

      What if you get hit by a bus two years from now? Do you want your last few years to be spent on a soul-sucking activity?
      Or, what if you DON’T get hit by a bus, but you find slightly more interesting job with an ok-not-great team that you’re still doing ten years from now? What if you then get hit by a bus in 10 years and realize you could have had 5 years of angora fun, but missed out?

      Five years at a mediocre job is not a very long time if you have 50+ years of relative freedom afterwards. You just don’t know what the future holds. I’m also in a place where if I get really minimal joy from the work I am doing, but do have a strong connection with my colleagues and a fairly comfortable salary that I would not be able to easily find someplace else. For me, right now, the connection with my colleagues is what sustains my lack of joy in my work. That said, I’m always perusing job boards and keeping my eyes and ears open for other opportunities. You never know what will fall into your lap. Start getting your ducks in a row and looking for what else might be out there. As you get closer to your target end date, you may ultimately decide you can keep shear-sharpening for 18 more months. You may find a sweet part time gig that gives you “fun money” to increase your lifestyle while getting your PhD in angora. Or you may find something amazing tomorrow!

    6. ThatGirl*

      I’m actually curious about the math here, you’ve worked there for 25 years, need to work another 5 and then you’re good for 50? Are you….25? (You don’t have to answer that, it just struck me.)

      1. Shearshucker*

        OP here. For timeline clarification: I’m currently 50 years in age. My family is notoriously long-lived. The youngest death age of all my near ancestors was 92. I honestly expect to live for another forty years, at least. I’m making my financial plans for that range, as it sucks to run out of money at 85.

        I’ve done some hard calculations and projections. At my current salary, if I save X amount over the next five years, I’ll have sufficient to live off until I reach 60, and can access my retirement funds penalty-free.

    7. lunchtime caller*

      this is a personal decision of course but if it were me? five years of work I know how to do in my sleep and then I can retire forever? Absolutely I would stick it out, while trying to find ways to give less to the shearing job (meaning take all the time off you’re allowed to, don’t break your back to meet extreme deadlines, clock out right on time, take full lunches, etc). Try to find ways to mitigate the parts of the job you hate, give more time and energy to your actual angora passion, and make your countdown widget nice and big. Again–that’s if it were me.

      1. Twisted Lion*

        I agree. 5 years till retirement makes it so I would stay and do what Lunchtime Caller says. Are you at BEC stage because you are burnt out or feeling stressing about stuff outside of work? Can you take some leave to reset? Are you doing enough non-work things (aka fun)? I mean it doesnt hurt to look but being so so close to retirement, I would just try to find ways to make things more tolerable.

      2. Quinalla*

        Same, I would stick it out, in fact I did in a similar situation.

        I don’t think it is a bad idea to poke your head out there and see what other things you can find, even laterally in your company, but that’s be plan B for me, plan A would be just sticking it out.

      3. StudentA*

        There’s a lot more risk in leaving than in staying. You have a great manager and team? That in itself is nothing to take for granted.

        I’d caution you on making an emotional decision, is what’s at the root of wanting to leave.

    8. T. Boone Pickens*

      Hmm this is a tough call and the trade offs are real. Plus, nobody knows how much time we all have left on this blue marble. I agree with Overeducated’s advice on constantly keeping your feelers out there. My other advice would be to ask if there are some things you can do to help make these next 5 years more tolerable? Extra PTO? Professional development opportunities that can help you both in your current job and after you retire? Would having the ability to mentor less experienced sharpening folks do anything for you?

    9. to varying degrees*

      Truthfully, if it was me, I’d stick it out. Sure, keep an eye out to maybe do a lateral move in the company, but five years and then retire? That would be enough inventive to push through. It’s a hard decision, but maybe ask yourself what you’ll regret in five years. Say you switch jobs, take the hit, and in October 2027 are you going to be able to wake up one Monday to get ready and go to work and be happy or are you going to say “Damn, I could be sleeping in right now if only…”? It’s hard to know, but if you do decide to stay would you be able to maybe do other things in your free time that would help you decompress form work life?

    10. My Useless 2 Cents*

      Sometimes if you make definitive plans for leaving those BEC feeling lessen because you see an out and just don’t care as much. Five years is not so long if you can just keep your head down (I find a count down clock to be very therapeutic). On the other hand, five years can feel really long if you dread going into work every day and that attitude is bleeding into non-work life. I’d spend some time and try to figure out if having that out will improve your mood enough to deal with it or if the dread is just bleeding into non-work life too much. Not saying you can’t keep an eye out for opportunities and jump at them if they seem great.

      **One caveat before listening to my advise – I tend to stay in situations way too long hoping they will improve and hate job searching with the passion of a thousand stars

    11. Doctors Whom*

      I am in a similar situation, but the timescale is a little longer. I make a good salary, with some really good benefits, and right now one of them is extremely valuable. I have topped out my technical growth. Lateraling into another part of the organization is potentially possible, but not without some retirements or attrition in key positions. Keeping my current standard of living and going elsewhere would require a minimum 50% raise, and I’m not interested in the level of demand that kind of money would come with. I’m going to spend the last 7-8 years of my job with it, for me, being a means to an end, and I’m getting more comfortable with that.

      I do have the ability to shift some of my scope to take on special projects, advisory committees, etc, in the organization. Things like working with HR to improve the career paths for llama shear sharpeners. Speaking at conferences about how to excel in llama shear sharpening. Partnering with the DEI office to improve our outreach to minority serving institutions that have programs in all aspects of llama grooming.

      And I’m trying to make sure my life OUTSIDE of work is richer, I’m taking care of myself better, and exploring new things to do in all of that time. (In my case that means more involvement in political action, seeking a nonprofit board position, taking on different volunteer duties at my kid’s school, doing some professional mentoring, and making up my mind that I probably have one more marathon left in the tank.) My job gives me the ability to do all those things and to have a really big shovel to put money into nonprofits and programs that advance causes important to me and create opportunities for people in communities I care about. When I frame it that way, I can suck up the bad days because they let me do some really meaningful stuff. I’ve found I can tolerate a lot if I put work in the right box (for me).

      Good luck with your decision!

      1. Alternative Person*

        The part about making life outside work richer is so important. It’s easy to let your interests fall by the wayside when you’re so focused on work stuff, but for me, doing them makes it easier to get through those tough work days.

    12. Five more years*

      Yep this is me.
      The way I have been dealing with the “how can I keep doing this day in and day out” is to just meet expectations.
      Take ALL of my vacation time.
      Work zero overtime.
      Volunteer for nothing.
      Work from home whenever possible.
      Remember that the money and health insurance is good and that my rainy day fund is growing.
      Appreciate my colleagues who I love, ignore the ones I don’t.
      I don’t actually loath my work just feel meh.

    13. darlingpants*

      You have such a long tenure at this company, would it be at all possible to negotiate some kind of “sabbatical” and take 3-6 months off unpaid? 5.5 years until retirement with a 6 month break NOW seems way easier to handle and you’ll learn really quickly when you come back to work if you were just burnt out and needed a break or if you really really need to do something different than sharpening things.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Stay put. The number one thing that is wrong is that you are bored and hate the work.

      If you go and get a new job you will suddenly realize all you have been taking for granted:

      New jobs come with a learning curve. This can be surprisingly tiring.
      Newbies are not always treated well.
      You will go from “good rep” to a “nobody” in a heart beat.
      You may take a pay cut.
      This may impact your retirement plans.
      You may learn to miss not being good at something, not being in control of your arena and the knowledge gaps that come up can get exhausting.
      Make peace with the shears. You do not have to like the shears, just guide yourself down from the ceiling and make a list of what is right in this picture.

      There. Were you screaming NOOO at your screen the whole time you read my post? If yes, then you have your answer.

    15. Cindy*

      I was in a very similar situation. I have been working in my job for 20-ish years for the same big company and the city I transferred to 7 years ago just doesn’t have any other companies with this job specialty. I have tried for promotion in this job and finally asked boss what was needed to get promoted, and his response was for me to do a specific task for the organization that I have absolutely no interest in, and I don’t think is needed. I had finally decided to keep my head down and stick it out for the 38 months until I turn 65.

      Then corporate office decided my role was not as important and asked (close to an order) all in this role who had degrees in the similar (tech) field to take temporary assignment (3-12 months) in the tech field.

      As I was in a phone screening for this new role I realized that since I had 10 years in this field when I first got my degree, oh so many years ago, I should apply for a promotion into the new job instead of just taking the temporary assignment or a lateral transfer.

      At the in-person interview with 3 managers, I expressed this and they were agreeable that I should apply for the higher position. And they were asking me if I would consider growing into team lead and/or manager in the future, which would be the next level promotion. Of course I gave them an enthusiastic “yes”. (I’m not sharing that my plan is to retire in 38 months.)

      So, I started working with the new team three weeks ago. It’s not perfect, and it’s still stressful, but in a different fashion. In fact I was so stressed last week that I started investigation on whether I could actually retire in 2 months at 62. But today I have faith that I can work the new position for a year and then decide where my life leads me. (Unless the retirement numbers come back significantly higher than expected and you’ll find me in competition with you in selling those Angora sweaters on Etsy.)

    16. All Het Up About It*

      Ooooh man! So personal.

      I would lean toward sticking it out, but agree with some other commenters that I might do a low key job hunt. Because if you COULD find something similar pay wise you don’t hate, that still let’s you retire in 5 years and live your dream… Yeah, that’s perfect right? But if not…. That life you’ll have in five years sounds amazeballs.

      Something to think about is how much is the hate you have for your job affecting your life as a whole? Like are you generally happy and healthy and enjoying life, just hating your job, or is being miserable at your job seeping over into your overall life satisfaction? The first seems like something that many of us have to deal with until there’s a magic utopia or we win the big one at the Powerball. But the later…. the later makes five years feel like five decades.

    17. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I think you sorta answered your own question here:

      “Five years. Then I can retire.
      Where I work, in and of itself, is not a bad place. I make a competitive wage. I work with an excellent team and my managers manage well. I enjoy a good reputation. I’d be hard-pressed to find another job with such good team dynamics. This team is why I haven’t left yet.”

      If you truly only have 5 more years to go at a job you don’t LOVE, but don’t HATE either (and it sounds like you’re treated fairly well) I’d probably say stick it out and save as much as money as you can until you can retire and go do what you really want. Basically, can you treat it as a means to an end and be ok with that a little longer? If you can’t, and it’s like making you sick, then find other opportunities now.

    18. Curmudgeon in California*

      At one job I worked with a person who literally came in, did her job very well, and went home at 5 pm. They did not want advancement, promotion, new duties or anything. They worked to live, and was counting down to retirement in probably ten years. Their manager was at their wits end trying to figure out a career progression for them when they called me. (I had left the company, but had known the worker at two employers.) I pointed out that the person’s reliability and consistency were an asset. They weren’t likely to run off chasing a promotion or “new experiences”. This person’s greatest asset was that they always showed up and did a good job.

      If you can view your job as sharpening llama shears consistently for N years, and countdown to retirement, it might help. Figure how many shears you sharpen in a day, and then calculate how many you need to do until you retire. Then count down.

      The real problem is that you’ve let the sameness eat into your brain and become a problem. If you can fix that, then you have a smooth path to retirement without any job-change anxiety in the mix.

  7. Melanie Cavill*

    Does anyone have experience developing an IDP? I’ve been tapped as a prime candidate for upward mobility by the director of HR. They want to meet with me and put together a development plan in service of that. I’m somewhat fuzzy on what this will actually look like!

    1. MsMarketer*

      We did this at work although I’m not sure how thorough they were. Essentially it was identifying a long term goal, e.g. be promoted to X then working out what the areas are you need to develop in order to get there. For example, learn Y skill – and then ideally the steps you’ll take to learn said skill. I found it useful, even if only to articulate to myself what I want to be/go/do.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      From your end – what do your goals look like and what do you think you could do, or they could do for you, that would help you attain those goals? “I would like to move into a management role with the llama dancing team. In order to facilitate that, I would like to apply for the Emerging Leaders six-month management training program, which requires a nomination from my direct manager as part of the application process. I would also like to be considered for short-term leadership opportunities with my current team, such as assisting with training for new llama groomers or directing special projects.”

      From their end, they should be working on similar suggestions, only with more concrete knowledge (maybe) of what opportunities might be available.

    3. ...*

      In my experience / organization, an IDP is collaborative. We’ll have a meeting and I can say “I would like to gain more understanding labor laws before stepping into a higher role” and they can say “That’s a good idea. I’d also suggest you learn more about compensation policies because you’ll be working with them more than you probably realize.” Both side work to identify ways to develop these skills (Classes? Shadowing? Training? etc.) and meet quarterly to discuss how the progress is coming along, if you feel like you need more support, etc.

      (forgive my made up HR-ish sounding examples, it’s not my field!)

  8. Maggie*

    I need help or advice on how to navigate my new boss. I’ve been with the company 2.5 years, last year we had a merger and most of the people in my legacy organization left between them and now. The CMO is…questionable and doesn’t understand the business. My new boss started 3.5 months ago. I feel like he’s getting really controlling but also doesn’t understand the business. I work in digital marketing in-house and we have 5 total brands we manage under our company. I manage Brands A and B.

    Some examples – (I can’t think of a teapot or llama equivalent. “Budget” is what the paid media activities cost and a “conversion” is if someone has bought our product)

    Our team has a budget document that gets updated daily and finance uses those numbers for the total budget. It’s eventually going to be automated but for now it’s manual. Yesterday he straight up told me he doesn’t even look at that document. I’m just like, what?? We have very strict budget goals so it’s a very important document because it shows the daily numbers. It’s also concerning because he’s getting more in the weeds on the brands I manage and I’m not even sure if he’s looking at the correct numbers because:

    Each brand has different conversions and looking at the wrong conversions skews the data and aren’t the correct numbers sent to finance. His first week I walked him through the correct conversions he should be using. However there have been multiple ongoing situations where he’s looking at the wrong conversions and I have to correct him. In one situation even after I corrected him and told him how finance uses those specific conversions, he blew it off and said how those conversions he was looking at were good to take into account. And then lo and behold, he reached out to finance and I was right. His response was “good call on looking at those conversions”. Another time he said the Teapot X and Teapot Y campaigns were too high spending and named what the cost per conversion was (a common metric) was, then I looked myself and had to tell him, “no those numbers aren’t correct, Z conversions are the ones we need to use”

    This week a brand Director (Adam) chatted me privately asking for a list of something for one of the campaigns, which is a very normal thing he would reach out to me for. I emailed him and cc’d my boss with the list, “hey Adam, attached is the list for the Teapot X campaign”. My boss immediately replied: “what is this for?”, then he replied to Adam, “please make sure I’m in the loop on all things Brand A. P.S. Maggie, thanks for looping me in”. Jeez lol. It left a bad taste in my mouth

    We use a tech platform to manage the campaigns, I told him that sometimes it can take at least a week to see the effects of something being implemented, to which he said, “well in Brand C, the change is impactful after only a few days”. Last month he made so many changes to the campaigns I’m worried we’re going to see a negative impact this month. 

    He’s telling me what changes to make. Everyday I get an email from him telling me something to update on the tech platform. He’s making these decisions super fast, not taking into account any past performance or why things were set up the way they were, or even what I recommend. I’m supposed to be the one managing them! In the past we always took a methodical approach to testing and he’s just rushing through it and making so many changes. I’m not sure how he’s measuring the success of everything he’s doing. Last month I asked him how a current ad copy test he was running in another brand was going and if he had any learnings from that. He replied he didn’t yet. So he wasn’t monitoring that test, but is in a rush to implement the same things in the other brands? Again, usually not the norm with digital marketing testing.- He frequently confuses the brands. I manage Brands A and B, so I’ll be talking about something for Brand B, but in his response he’ll answer if I was talking about Brand A, so I have to redirect back to the brand I was referring to

    He was telling me how for one of the smaller brands who my coworker, Celeste, manages, it’s meeting one of the cost metric goals, but it’s behind on conversion and spend goals. He said how he should have pushed more on spend and conversions. And I’m thinking, “huh? That’s Celeste’s job!”. But he’s doing the same with my brands so I’m not sure he knows her and I have ownership for our brands and what we should be managing

    To make it more confusing, Celeste also manages a small campaign in one of my brands. Our boss has been told this but has reached out to me several times regarding that piece; everytime I have to say, “Celeste manages that”. Recently this happened again, and in an email chain with our boss and Celeste, I told our him how this new structure (ie. Celeste managing a small campaign in my brand) was too confusing and I thought we should go back to every brand managed only by 1 person (it changed about a month before he was hired) instead of overlap. Celeste agreed with me saying how it was less confusing day-to-day if we know what exactly we are responsible for, but he ignored us and said how he wants an overlapping approach

    He’s getting super into the weeds on the campaigns. This is very technical so I’ll do my best: each campaign is shown by search phrases in the search engine. It’s my job to monitor these queries and exclude or add in these search phrases. But he’s been going in, daily, into all the campaigns and doing this. He’s at the director level, it seems way too into the weeds for him to go into, and too frequently. He hasn’t asked me what I’ve done (or a best practice as a team) in the past, he’s just assuming he knows best. 3 months in!

    Obviously, I think there is something else going on here. I wonder what exactly was told to him when he was interviewing or when he got hired. But how should I act? Should I stop correcting him, step back and let him do what he wants without questioning it? I’m not sure how to keep my head down and do my job when he’s so involved in everything

    1. Volunteer Enforcer*

      I would say to leave him to get on with it. His perspective as a new boss is going to be very different to yours as an established individual contributor. Just trust that if he proves incompetent his boss will notice. Maybe your frustration comes from him being confused over things that are obvious to you? Cut him some slack unless he proves otherwise. Good luck!

    2. TKZK*

      I work in a completely different industry but when the people supervising you don’t understand the work you do and micromanage it in ways that create errors / inconsistencies / lost time etc., I think it’s time to move on. We had a transition at my office where I lost my great manager about 3 months ago, and at this point I’m just desperate to get out. I’m not sure managing up is possible when a manager is confidently making one business mistake after another with no reflection–and then being kind of a jerk to boot. Would you even want a reference from this guy at any point in the future? Get out!

      1. Maggie*

        Exactly!

        This: “micromanage it in ways that create errors / inconsistencies / lost time etc.”

        And to your point he’s not reflecting or even connecting the dots

    3. MsMarketer*

      I work in a similar space. Agree this sounds nuts. On the plus side, you’ve got his instructions detailing this and if the campaign does begin tanking you have data to back that up. Keep it all documented! At least you work in a space where the negative impact of this meddling is crystal clear to see.

    4. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      All I can say is document everything so the poor performance does not reflect on you, or that it’s documented it was not your idea to implement the changes. And them let him get on with whatever he’s doing.

    5. Foley*

      OMG I do this job every day (self-employed artist – but brand and campaign management is how I bring in the money).

      I’m so sorry. This is a mess that could really tank your measurables/profits/results.

      Can you scale him back to weekly or even better bi-weekly intervention? Take all of his ideas down in OneNote or whatever, then go about your business, and discuss (not implement) his plans during a regular 1:1?

      On a spectacular day you can see test results in 72 hours – maybe. But methodical testing (in my years of experience) is the only way to accurately measure results. Plus, these budgets really are finicky because mismanagement can see the whole thing spent without results (incremental increases or product launch plans).

      I just worry with him monkeying around, he could easily make it difficult for you to reach your goals thereby impacting your performance, and making it hard for you to advance or leave.

      Or maybe have a bigger meeting with your CMO to try to get some procedures down about campaign testing/changes?

      1. Maggie*

        “On a spectacular day you can see test results in 72 hours – maybe. But methodical testing (in my years of experience) is the only way to accurately measure results. Plus, these budgets really are finicky because mismanagement can see the whole thing spent without results (incremental increases or product launch plans).”

        Exactly!! lol. It’s just so strange there is no really methodology to his testing.

        It’s a mess. We’re significantly cutting budgets for the rest of this year. Every other year we’ve had growth YoY, but it’s concerning they are cutting back. It makes no sense. Everything is falling because the CMO doesn’t listen to people and if something doesn’t work immediately, the response is to pause it.

        When he first started I thought it was odd how he had no interest in asking our team what our campaign management and testing processes were. He’s made no effort to adapt to us. 3 months into a new job is nothing! And I can’t get over his obsession with going through the search query report. He’s acting like he created the keyword mining process and like it’s such a huge deal, when it’s a basic task the rest of us did weekly! He sucks lol

    6. asteramella*

      For the things he’s getting involved with that you normally have ownership over, it might be good to have a conversation with him and frame it as making sure you’re both on the same page.

      “Hey boss, I noticed you have been monitoring queries and excluding or adding in search phrases for my campaigns. It was my understanding that I should have ownership over this task—which is reflected in my metric goals for the year—to free you up for more strategic/big-picture stuff. Is this something you want to handle on your own instead? How should we change my metric goals if I no longer have ownership over this task?”

  9. Amy*

    Any tips for how to respond when a manager ‘mansplains’ to you? My director joined our team about 5 months ago, and he continues to mansplain to me, when I’ve been there for a few years. He doesn’t listen when I give him background or context, then ends up repeating stuff I already know.

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      “Is there something about my work that makes you believe I need further explanation on this?”

      “That’s kind of an odd thing to say, considering my level of experience with [X] and the conversation we just had yesterday about this very topic.”

      Keep your tone and expression neutral and don’t break eye contact. Make him say out loud his justification for behaving this way.

        1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

          You can still ask him about it in person, even if he does it over email. It’s not combative to ask someone to clarify / provide more insight on their reasoning for feedback, especially if you frame it as wanting to know if there’s something specific about your work that needs improvement.

          1. TKZK*

            Just seconding this. I often will pick up the phone if I need clarification on an email. I think next time you get an email like this, call him right away to clarify his intent.

    2. Lizcase*

      Nod and smile. Or make acknowledgement noises on a call while you ignore him and do the work you already know how to do and don’t need explained again and again.
      And then sigh that yet again, your time has been wasted by someone who should know by now you can do your job.

      Sorry, this is more cynical than helpful. Sometimes I just write someone off as ‘will continue behaviour regardless of what I do’, so I stop trying. Sometimes the message that yes I know what I’m doing and in fact am very good at my job sinks in after several months (or years).

    3. Purple Cat*

      I would attempt to reframe it in your head (And this will be hard), that he’s explaining it to HIMSELF for his own knowledge and not mansplaining at YOU. (Even though that’s unlikely to be the case, it’s a generous assumption that will help you to not get so stressed about it.
      And then you can have a conversation about it with that assumption – “Hey Boss, I know you like to explain a lot of things in detail in your emails, is that to help you remember things and get up to speed? They’re usually things I’m up to speed on already” Or something like that.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        This is also a good point regardless of gender dynamics, that took me years to learn. Sometimes people talk to talk and and talk through stuff becuase they are working it out in their heads or trying to make sure they got it right.

      2. GingerNP*

        Up to and including, “yeah, it seems like you have a handle on it!” very cheerfully. “Yep, you got it buddy, good job!” in undertone.

    4. Binky*

      That would drive me nuts. could you act like you think he’s looking for confirmation? So when he finishes up a long-winded explanation of something you know you can say, “yes, that’s my understanding as well.” or “In my years here that’s been my experience, but I do try to keep X in mind as well.”

      1. hamsterpants*

        “That’s correct” is my favorite response to mansplainers. “Yup, that’s right!” or “indeed” or “yep, you got it!” are also good if you think the person really is a verbal-repetition learner.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          My spouse is one of those. They talk to themselves, too.

          I will just acknowledge stuff with “Correct. Plus X and Y” or “No, it’s actually that minus Z.”

          Some people are taught to repeat back information to A) Verify it, and B) Make sure it sinks into their own head. Yes, he could be mansplaining, but it can be less aggravating if you frame it to yourself as him looking for confirmation. A bonus may be that he stops mansplaining, but don’t count on it.

    5. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I once worked for someone a bit like this. Some of it was probably about them being insecure (which you can’t fix but at least remembering that can help calm you down when you want to smack him in the face) and some of it was honestly … their personality. They were all about ideas and teasing things out in the moment, or going ahead with something before slowing down to see if it fits the available data, which didn’t match the way I think about things at ALL. They made me crazy at times but in others when I felt stuck because I couldn’t think outside the box I was grateful for their thoughts.

      One thing that might help depending on your circumstance: people like this tend not to be that bothered if their great ideas turn out to be wrong later, as long as they aren’t called out publicly like in a big meeting. So even though it is a waste of time for them to ignore your advice and try the way that won’t work, they will usually figure out it doesn’t work and decide to try again. Very frustrating but you often get where you need to get in the end if you can try to detach yourself emotionally and go along with their idea rather than trying to change their mind when they are already decided. Good luck!

      If the mansplaining is just them being an arsehole, then it’s about deciding for yourself what you’re willing to put up with and for how long.

  10. Cruciatus*

    I had some questions a few weeks ago about Commonwealth of PA jobs and I had another question maybe someone can answer–how long must you work for the state before you can bid on another job?

    I’ve found only 1 answer, but it’s from someone on Indeed and I can’t find anything else that corroborates the information (the answer given was 2 years, BTW). There are some jobs that I don’t love but would be willing to do for a year, but if I had to do it for 2 years before bidding on something else I’m not sure I’d want to do that.

    1. Chapeau*

      I work for the Commonwealth, but for a niche agency (one of the caucuses), and at least here it depends on the job you’re in now (or job you start with). Generally, however, it depends on the agency.
      I know with Labor and Industry you have to be a call screener for a year before you can apply to be an examiner, because I heard that a billion times last year when there was a massive shortage of examiners. Not sure about other agencies, but it’s definitely one of the questions I’d ask in an interview.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      In NYS, the job postings will define length of service for transfers.
      Are you union? There might be some clarification in the contract.

  11. hmmm*

    I’m looking to start a business. Before anyone asks I’ve done all the prep work, research, spoken with accountants and lawyers. Before I take the plunge I want to run this as a hobby business for a year or so. Before paying to create the website I am envisioning… while I’m in the hobby stage, can anyone recommend a DIY website with templates and examples. Most of theDIY sites I’m looking at want you to sign up before seeing any of this.

    1. Liz in the Midwest*

      Not sure if this is helpful, but I use Weebly for my business that I started. It’s a travel business, currently my side business but picking up steam and my goal is to at some point be able to switch to part time at my main job. If you want to look at my website as an example of what can be done with Weebly, it’s at leapinghound dot com. And to be clear, I’m comfortable with computers but am in no way, shape, or form a web designer or anything. This was built using Weebly’s templates and a few other apps/add-ons.

    2. TKZK*

      Shopify is perfect for this sort of thing, in my experience. It’s very easy to use, and looks nice and professional.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      Squarespace has a ton of templates. Shopify as TKZK mentioned is also great. You could also check out Wix and GoDaddy.

      1. Al*

        Echoing what others are saying: I’ve used Squarespace and found it very flexible and easy to use. I also know a lot of folks who have used Shopify and had good things to say.

    4. NewJobNewGal*

      It sounds like you want to build something yourself, but you may want to look for help on Fivver. I used a website developer on there to get the website set up and framework so I could customize it. They used wordpress so there were no ongoing fees. It was $200, but it was well worth it knowing that all the background stuff was set up correctly.

    5. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I’ve used Wix successfully. While I bristle at the ongoing maintenance fee — vs. WordPress, where once you buy the template it’s yours forever — it was easy to use and the templates were quite nice. I was happy with how my site looked and functioned. I think there is a free (or nearly free?) Wix level that allows them to advertise in your footer but I paid the $200-ish fee to get rid of that.

    6. RagingADHD*

      You can browse the themes on WordPress.org for free. Once you get your domain name, it is free to install.

      You can purchase custom themes, but there are thousands of free ones that work great.

      It can seem a bit intimidating, but the instructions are very clear and easy to follow, and it’s nearly impossible to permanently break anything because you can always undo or re-install.

    7. CPA in Canada*

      I looked at a lot of options and I ended up with Squarespace in part because it is easy to use and its easy to integrate payments if you need too.

      There are several solutions that are decent – I know people who use some of the others listed here but it’s about how much time, effort and detail you need and want.

    8. Grogu's Mom*

      I use Weebly for a personal/travel blog (not selling anything) and wish I had something else. Part of that is because it used to be more blogger-friendly and now is more targeted towards businesses (which sounds like what you are looking for). But the other part of it is that the mobile app is pretty terrible, to the point that I sometimes have to wait until I’m home from a trip to post a blog. It has gotten better over the past year or two, but for example just a couple days ago I was riding in a car and wanted to make a note to myself on a particular section while I was thinking about it. There was a sudden bump in the road and I accidentally hit delete on this section that I’d been working on for weeks, and since I was on the road and not able to just drop everything and call Weebly support, I had to click off of that page. And that was it…my work was just gone and I now have to recreate it from memory. When it was at its worst point, I actually quit blogging for a couple of years (halfway through a trip to Switzerland lol) because I was losing so much content on accident. The mobile app is also not great at things like resizing photos, so I pretty much have to give up on aesthetics and stick with the defaults when I’m on the go.

      Every time I look into it, it’s too much work to transfer everything over, so I’m about to renew with Weebly for another couple of years, I guess. But once my kid is a bit older and I have more free time, I think I’ll look into Squarespace. It seems like lots of people are really happy with it.

  12. anon for this*

    I had a second round interview this week and it went well. They told me to be patient. It helps to be busy, just need some good vibes.

  13. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Right now I’m feeling transitional. But what’s something that you feel good about on your job? My job has given me 2k extra for no apparent reason so I’m glad about that.

    1. blargh*

      Right now we’re in very transitional phase in our department, and I’m going to be moved up a level and have to manage people, which is new to me. I’m glad that my manager is standing firm on the fact that I am not going to work at my new level until I am being paid for my new level. It’s so tempting to be all “let’s just start doing new job now so I can get a better grip on it before I have to hire my supervisees” but I just need the reminder that I do not need to go above and beyond for this university. They don’t go above and beyond for me.

      1. Volunteer Enforcer*

        Remember if you died on the job, your job ad would go up before your obit. There is more to life than just work.

    2. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Lots I don’t love about my job, but I feel good about how appreciative everyone is of me and my work – lots of positive feedback. They also just gave me a raise.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      My job gives me a guaranteed benefit pension as well as a 401k match. And my VP has said the whole department can leave at 1 today to start the long weekend early.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      So far, I have pretty nice classes (my timetable isn’t finalised yet, plus I haven’t met my 1st years and don’t know much about them as they are new to the school).

    5. OtterB*

      New Top Boss started recently (the old one retired a year ago and one of my colleagues has been Acting). It’s a steep learning curve but I think she’s going to be great.

      Also, I think I’m finally crawling out of a pandemic hole. I have been procrastinating really badly but am getting my act together, I think.

    6. Jane of All Trades*

      Feeling transitional too! And this is a great prompt. Two things that are great about my job:
      – I have been dealing with some health issues and people have been very supportive, and have made the process very easy. I just call out when I’m not well, no further info or doctors note needed, and unlimited sick days.
      – I’ve been doing work with a group of people who are very good to work with. They’re nice on a personal level and strike a good balance between giving me substantive work and support.

  14. PTO negotiation*

    I’m in my 40s, at my fifth corporate job, and not once have I been able to negotiate PTO as part of my hiring package. Every single time, my request to do so was firmly stomped down, and I was told that PTO is lock-step based on time at the company.

    Yet, later on, I hear from other employees that they were able to negotiate extra PTO. Are they just lying? Do I give off a “I’m a PTO wimp” vibe? I’m not a shrinking violet, nor am I a terrible negotiator. I’m a senior SME making a comfortable six figures. I just can’t figure out the PTO thing! Any ideas for the next time?

    1. A question*

      Same age as you. I’m In The same situation as you. I came from a so so company that overworked you but gave 6 weeks ( in the US) as compensation. My next few jobs everything was negotiated except PTO. While overall I’m in a job that’s a much better fit, I can even take time off without pay, I’ve not been able to get extra PTO and I’ve seen the same things at you. I’m friendly enough with my boss that at some point I want to have an informal discussion about this. But I am truly baffled.

    2. snowyowl*

      I recently had to negotiate PTO and what I was told was that it’s based on step — so I had to have a reason that would take me outside of that. My current job gives more PTO, so I wrote HR and emphasized the amount of time I currently get and what I would like to get from them> I was able to get another week of time off.

      For you I would argue more about your experience — yes, you’d be entering their workplace at a lower step, but you have X years of experience and you would like the PTO that matches that. Emphasize that PTO is important to your job satisfaction.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      Hmm that does seem a bit odd especially if there is no other explanation like, “Hey PTO here’s what your offer is looking like and we’re bringing you in at the absolute top end of our range. Because of that, we don’t have any wiggle room on anything.”

    4. Everything Bagel*

      I haven’t negotiated PTO or vacation, but I plan to at my next move. I’m a little nervous about it! I guess we have to be prepared to walk away from an offer if the employer isn’t willing to compromise on that. Or at least we have to seem like we would do that.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Were these coworkers all hired before/after you? Perhaps the policy changed in between their hire dates and yours.

      That is a frustrating situation to be in, no matter what the cause.

    6. Chapeau*

      I’ve tried to negotiate PTO with two jobs in the past, and both were no. However, in both jobs the offer and negotiation were through the hiring manager, not HR. The last time I tried, the hiring manager said absolutely not, mentioning that due to being shorthanded and some unexpected projects with hard deadlines, she had taken exactly 2 days of PTO the previous year. There was no way to negotiate with her after that.
      And then on day 1, while filling out stuff with HR, I mentioned to the HR person that I was losing 52 days off per year (I worked 32 hours a week, but was considered full time), plus the actual 2 weeks of PTO that I had. She was shocked that I was willing to settle for the 2 weeks that I got at that job. She told me that they negotiated PTO all the time, and my boss was wrong.
      That was not the only thing my boss was wrong about, and that particular job is a short entry in my work history.

      1. Chapeau*

        So maybe bring it up with HR if you were hard noped by the hiring manger, or vice versa. If the no comes as part of the interview process, then it’s probably worth a shot to ask again when an offer is made.
        Also, if you’re in senior roles, it’s ludicrous for an employer to expect you to be happy with the same PTO as a brand new college graduate.

    7. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I don’t think you’re a PTO wimp. I think many companies have pulled PTO from job and salary negotiations in recent years. Previously, it was very much the norm to negotiate for extra PTO in lieu of higher salary range. But starting around 2017/18, I began to run into several companies that only offered 2 weeks PTO to start — no negotiating and HR’s hands were tied. This was the case at my current job, and because I actually LOST a week, I was able to negotiate a slightly higher salary roughly equal to the week I’d lost coming over from my previous job.

      I don’t know why this is? I guess HR is trying to keep the PTO equal and same for all new hires so they no longer allow negotiations for time.

      1. Cindy*

        I have worked for several BIG MEGA GOVERNMENT CONTRACTING COMPANIES, and for all of them the PTO is related to years of service. When you start you have a specific amount and at 5 years you get another week; 10 years another beyond that; 20 years another week; until you max out.
        At one company the HR giving the in-brief tried to make us all feel better by saying that it had even been non-negotiable to the recently hired new president of the company.

    8. Flash Packet*

      When I found out that our “merit” raises each year were really just a [bad] COLA, I told my manager that the one thing he *could* do was give me another week of PTO.

      It’s outside of policy so he wrote an email formalizing it in case I switch positions before I hit the step on the ladder where I would have automatically gotten that additional week.

      I approached it as, “I’m a seasoned professional, not a newbie straight out of school. I realize I haven’t been with *this* company for a lot of years but I have worked for several decades and this company is benefitting from all that experience which happened on someone else’s payroll.”

  15. Weird interview format UPDATE*

    I have an update! A reminder I was provided this brief:

    “As part of the interview, candidates lead a 10-minute conversation with the panel on the role’s priorities, key contacts, areas of focus, summarising the main areas of discussion back to the panel.”

    So I prepared and the interview started and this was actually the first item! So I started going through my priorities (had 5 in total) and at the third one they interjected and asked if there would be discussion, to which I responded I would open the floor after identifying the five priorities. So no lie, that interruption threw me for a loop but I was able to lead the discussion and get back on track.
    I think I was able to recover from that and made it through the rest of the interview.

    Honestly it’s getting tiring with all these new interview formats…I mean I get workplaces are changing (HR processes evolve too). But each interview nowadays needs so much preparation and time investment due to each organization’s unique interview/hiring format. Pouring over the job description, looking at the company’s Strategic Plan, devising suitable questions. There are some many hurdles now. It’s tiring!

    1. Sandy*

      Oof, that sounds rough! They asked you to lead a conversation and then they had to ASK if you were going to let them discuss the topics? Sounds
      like you missed the mark there! That must be really disappointing. Hopefully the rest of the interview was stronger and you could overcome that impression.

      1. Original Poster*

        Thanks Sandy! Yeah it was a bit awkward for a sec there but I had to get things back on track…

        1. tessa*

          Sounds to me like you handled as best as anyone could. Even if you don’t get the job, you can hold your head high.

  16. King Friday XIII*

    Any advice on timing for accomodations? My office keeps saying they’re going to bring us back at least part time in the office once the new office is built, but I’ve found being home is much, much easier on my digestive issues for multiple reasons. I’m not sure if I should bring it up way in advance or wait until we have an actual date to return to the office or what. Suggestions?

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I would bring it up now. It will give you and your bosses more time to discuss and if necessary get it documented.

    2. Educator*

      The ADA requires your employer to engage in an interactive process with you to determine reasonable accommodations, and in my experience, it often is a bit of a process!

      I would immediately begin gathering written documentation, especially from medical providers, since that can take time. Once you are looking at a 2-3 month time horizon for needing the accommodation, I would talk to your manager about your request, and then loop in HR as needed. (Much more than that, and your employer might want to restart the process to see if the accommodation is still needed.) Sometimes an awesome manager can sort this stuff out in a quick conversation and that’s it, other times it requires several conversations with your manager and HR, with compromises on both sides.

      Good on you for advocating for yourself! I hope it goes well.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Get the ADA paperwork going now — it will require medical input comma and that can be time consuming.
      (And thanks for the reminder, because I need to do that at my annual physical in a couple of weeks…so very few migraines when I can exclude artificial scents!)

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Yeah, I had my first migraine in several months today. Being remote has made the incidence of migraines much, much less, plus enables me to manage my IBS-D better, even if I end up dashing to the bathroom in the middle of a meeting.

        If they ever wanted me to come in to the office regularly I would have to say no, between migraines, fragrance sensitivity and IBS-D it’s just too damaging, plus my household has several high-risk for Covid people in it.

  17. Yikes*

    I posted very late last week without much response. Over the past few years I’ve been wanting to start my own company. I have a few ideas I’ve researched. I know this is insane to ask….. has anyone here run multiple businesses at once? How does that work? What are your experiences like? Were you a silent owner? Hands on?

    I know realistically this requires a lot of planning; it’s not happening all at one (years even); good well compensated teams will be required. I get the logistics. I’m hoping to create the “Smith company” with a few sub companies/ divisions over the years. I just was wondering if anyone has ever done this.

    1. irene adler*

      I know someone who has done this.
      The bottom fell out when some of the employees at each company she started left via the Great Resignation and she was forced to work every waking hour to keep these businesses going AND try and hire replacements. It is not going well.

      So get the plan together early on for worst case situations for each of these businesses you plan to start. And know that worst case for these businesses may very well occur at the same point in time.

    2. Hen in a Windstorm*

      I think people usually do multiple business ideas serially, rather than all at once. A lot of entrepreneurs have a lot of ideas, but they do one thing for a few years, either sell or shut it down, then start a new one. I suppose it depends on if they’re related or totally different categories.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Are you talking about offering vertically or horizontally integrated services?

      The folks I’ve seen build multiple successful businesses as divisions either started in a single specialty and then added on, or they started as generalists / Jack of all trades and then developed each service offering into its own division / entity over time.

      So I’ve seen it done, but only in stages where one stable, profitable enterprise could fuel the next.

  18. bubbabean*

    I’m desperate for a new job but can’t seem to find traction on anything that isn’t the exact same thing I’m already doing. I do “program work” (project and event management mostly) for a nonprofit in education. I feel like every job I find is more specialized than the experience I have and I don’t know how to translate things. I need to do something different but I am so stuck!!

    1. ecnaseener*

      Without knowing what you’ve already tried — do your cover letters make a strong case for how your skills will translate? Or are you stuck even figuring out how to make that case? (Idk what jobs you’re trying to get into, but project and event management require a ton of transferable skills!)

    2. AnonyMouse*

      It’s hard to answer without knowing which direction you are looking to move. Are you trying to get out of the nonprofit sector? Why do you want to do something different and what interests you?

    3. Another JD*

      Have you sat down and listed out the skills each area of your job requires? You don’t always need direct experience for skills to translate to a new role. In my law firm, our current intake specialist/front desk person had zero legal experience. Her background is in hospitality, and she’s smart. She learned the legal part, but really she’s the most brilliant person we’ve had to date because of her people management skills she honed in hospitality.

  19. Bunny Girl*

    How do I explain a 9 month stay at a job without badmouthing an employer?

    I started at a job administrative job in November of 2021 with the intention of staying there until I graduated in March of 2023. I liked my job and team. I left in August of 2022 because my supervisor was extremely mentally ill and refused treatment and unfortunately her behavior made her impossible to work for. She was paranoid, abusive, manipulative, and extremely overbearing. 5 people in our tiny team quit because of her. I found another job (and really didn’t like leaving with such a short time left to go, but I couldn’t deal with her anymore). But I am keeping my eyes peeled for jobs in my field with the intent of really committing to my job search after the first of the year.

    How can I explain my sudden departure? I don’t think I can leave off a 9 month job, and I don’t want to. But I also don’t want to bad mouth my employer. I think I stayed too long to say it was a bad fit….

    1. Mystik Spiral*

      9 months is not too long to say it’s a bad fit! I think anything under a year that would be a fine excuse. But there are myriad “white lies” that you could make fit your situation. The job wasn’t what you expected, the commute is too long, there’s no room for advancement, etc. Also, I don’t think employers in this climate are necessarily going to see red flags for someone leaving a job after any length of time.

    2. Same Boat*

      Bad fit is fine! Use vague language, like the company was going in a direction that didn’t match your goals, or your position evolved into something entirely different that didn’t match your first JD. I’m in the same boat. Most hiring managers will probably see through it and know what you mean.

    3. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      I think these questions are generally best addressed by saying what was better about the new place. So, instead of “overbearing,” your second job offered more independence, e.g. I also think it’s not going to be a huge issue in hiring managers’ minds. They kind of want to know if you were fired, and other than that, unless you have a history of job hopping, it’s not going to be a big deal. I think you can probably be fine with one or two, “New job gave me more independence and better flexibility around my studies” type factors. Even better if you can frame it as something that would be valuable to the new employer.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I do have a little bit of a job hoppy resume. In my defense, I went back to school in my late 20s and so most of my jobs have been just entry level administrative jobs that I don’t think many people expect you to stay huge amounts of time at. Plus I moved a lot.

    4. Esprit de l'escalier*

      Could you say “A few months in, my role changed in ways that were a bad fit for me, and after giving it a good try I accepted that it was not going to go back to the parameters under which I had accepted the position.” That is true in a sense, since you went in thinking your supervisor was someone you could surely work with and then you realized or reluctantly accepted that she was not.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        That wouldn’t really make sense. We did move offices midway through right when gas prices really started to sore and it doubled my commute. I kind of wanted to go with that except if anyone looked they’d notice my new job is the same commute. LoL

    5. RagingADHD*

      Well, don’t say anything unless you’re asked. I wouldn’t think many people would question a short stay while someone was still in school.

      If they did, I think you can be honest without badmouthing. I would say that the team dynamics were so difficult that 5 out of however many other people left in the first few months, and you eventually became the sixth. If they follow up, you could say that there was a lack of professionalism, and the environment was not positive or constructive.

      Talking about the supervisor being mentally ill would be badmouthing. Talking about numbers and culture are giving facts and stating your priorities.

      1. Moths*

        I agree with this (and Granger Chase below). I was in a similar situation of having to explain a job change at an interview. When asked, I said something along the lines of, “I really loved the work I was doing there and tried to stay as long as possible because of that. But the company had some challenges and 8 people on my team quit in the time I was there. I ended up deciding the best option was going to be for me to find a new position as well.”

        If you say it matter of factly, people will read between the lines and recognize there were major issues there, but see that you’re staying professional and only stating facts. By stating the amount of turnover, it wards off them thinking that *you* were the issue and shows that there were systemic problems.

        All that said, I also agree that no one is probably going to question a 9 month job if you’re in school still. I would be surprised if you get a question about the duration of your employment.

    6. Granger Chase*

      Could you focus on the fact that there was suddenly a high turnover (X% of your team), which made the workload quickly become unsustainable? I get the sense you don’t want to be “misleading” in the interviews by saying it was a bad culture fit, but it’s common for interviewees to give more vague/professionalized answers than the full truth when they left their last job because it was a complete nightmare.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      First, if your current company offers tuition reimbursement and the previous didn’t, that’s all you need to mention…roll right into a question about new-opportunity.
      But if not….I think you were working full-time and going to college full-time, and you changed jobs just before the start of your last school year right?
      It is completely logical for a student to change jobs to one that is more flexible and supportive of her studies. Or to need a predictable work environment to concentrate on college coursework. Praise the one you started this month, and you don’t have to say much about the one you left last month.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        PS give a long hard look at transfer options within your current company when you are looking for your after college job. That kind of internal promotion would do a lot to counter the short stints you say you have in the past.

    8. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Say “5 people out of 10 quit because the environment in short order” and leave it at that!

    9. Curmudgeon in California*

      “There were issues that made it increasingly obvious it was a poor fit for me.”

      IMO, this implies that you tried to make it work, but couldn’t. If they ask what kind of issues, you can cite excessive turnover and management style.

  20. Formulas are cool*

    I had an unsettling conversation with a coworker this week. We’re remote and don’t work together much, but occasionally I’ve needed to ask his advice. In this case, we had a work-related phone conversation that turned to chatting about our kids, and he casually made some racist and homophobic comments, apparently assuming I’d agree, but didn’t backtrack when I diplomatically pushed back and mentioned a LGBT family member. He doesn’t manage anyone, though he’s fairly senior and has been with the company a long time, and while I’ve always gotten good ol’ boy vibes, he knows better than to be open with the bigotry. Except in a private conversation with someone white/cis/het-presenting I guess? Should I just keep in mind what I know about him and avoid private conversations? Being direct about what he said to me feels dangerous and he might have enough pull to undermine me if I got on his bad side. I don’t see how I could do anything about how he might treat others unless he does it publicly. In the big picture I’m minimally impacted but my skin is crawling.

    1. Justin*

      That sort of language is worth tracking and sending to HR. Probably nothing happens for now but make that paper trail.

    2. Pascall*

      If this was a work-related conversation, I would absolutely say something to HR or your supervisor. Just because he’s saying it in private with someone who he assumes is “on his side” doesn’t mean that it will/will not effect someone with whom he may have a conversation with later who he will directly offend or alienate. If he’s said it to you, the chances that he said it to someone else is extremely high.

      1. Formulas are cool*

        I was offended and I wasn’t even the target. We were talking about our kids’ schools when he made the comments. He’ll probably know it was me reporting him if HR talks to him, but he doesn’t have direct power over me and I don’t think our boss would be ok with those comments. I’m only worried about it starting a war at work.

        1. Pascall*

          I feel like it might be worth starting a war to make sure that that kind of behavior doesn’t become the norm at your workplace. I’d rather deal with some internal fighting leading to the squashing of racism/bigotry than having to deal with the actual racism and bigotry.

          But it’s up to you! Do what you think is right. The bystander effect is real, even in these situations where the assumption is being made that maybe someone else will do something about it instead. If you’re okay with the prospect that no one will do anything about it and he’ll keep having the license to espouse these views, then you can let it lie. But if you’re not okay with that, definitely say something.

        2. LadyByTheLake*

          This is totally something you should report. You aren’t “starting a war” — you are appropriately reporting inappropriate (and disgusting) workplace behavior that could open up the company to liability.

        3. Hen in a Windstorm*

          So I understand why, but you’re reacting emotionally here. You’re imagining all sorts of negative outcomes when you haven’t even said anything yet. 1. That HR will say something to him. 2. That he will then “know” it was you. 3. That this will start a “war” (wow, over the top language there).

          Setting aside the feels, realistically what might happen? When you talk to HR, you can tell them your concerns as well as what he said. Maybe you aren’t the first to report him. Maybe you are. Maybe they won’t say anything to him. Maybe they will. Maybe he can guess it was you, but maybe he’s said so many shitty things that it could be any of 5 people.

          What would a “war” at work look like? Why do you think that’s the likely outcome? Why does reporting him “feel dangerous”? Does your company have a crappy culture? Do the people in charge regularly attack their employees or do they let employees attack each other? If you really believe you reporting a racist to HR would lead to a war at work instead of him being shut down, sounds like you need to leave.

          1. Formulas are cool*

            It feels dangerous because I almost got pushed out of a previous job because I spoke up there. But that place was seriously toxic and my current workplace is pretty progressive (if not without bad apples here and there). I’m probably reacting to flashbacks more than what’s actually likely to happen here.

            1. WantonSeedStitch*

              I would make a point when you talk to HR or management (and I’m optimistically saying “when” instead of “if” because I really hope you will) of saying “I’ve experienced retaliation in a previous job after reporting something that I felt needed reporting, and I’m worried about that happening here, especially since Fergus is likely to know that I’m the one who reported this. Can you give me any reassurance that I’m not going to experience retaliation for this?”

            2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

              You say your manager likely would find it problematic too. Why not bring the situation to her? You can say you would like to go to HR but have some concerns about it. The reaction will tell you a lot that will be useful for your own context too.

              (This all assumes you feel safe doing this with your manager)

        4. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I think it’s important to remember that it wouldn’t be you who was starting the war. You told this coworker his comments weren’t welcome and he continued to push anyway. If reporting this to HR causes drama, he caused the drama, not you. If he wants to spend his one wild and precious life being a raging bigot, that’s his choice, but you get to decide that you’d rather spend yours protecting people from that bigotry.

    3. Observer*

      I think that a lot depends on his position. You say he doesn’t manage anyone. But does he have input into hiring / firing / promotion decisions? Does he have input into things like the vendors you choose?

      If the answer is yes, I would flag it for your boss. Something like “Joe made some comments to me and I’m a bit concerned that these attitudes might affect his judgement and recommendations.”

      Does he work with others in ways that could materially affect their job / environment?

      If yes, I would flag it, but a bit differently. Because if he behaves himself, that’s fine. But if there seems to be a pattern where people of a certain demographic seem to be having a bit more trouble in dealing with him, this is an important piece of context for your boss to have.

      1. Formulas are cool*

        Not really, he’s a senior number cruncher. I do worry he might want to become a manager though, he’d likely be a shoo-in if he applied.

        1. Observer*

          How has he been getting along with the people who give him the numbers he crunches and the people who need those reports?

          But also, I think you need to flag it for HR. In a similar vein of “I thought this would be important to take into consideration if he’d ever be managing people.”

          1. Formulas are cool*

            That’s a good point, and I’m not sure. However, he’s very much a schmoozer and at our holiday party, I felt a bit unwelcome because he kept aggressively steering the conversation to sports and away from other topics, especially ones I brought up or showed interest in. That part is hard to describe, but it was like he was trying to be the gatekeeper of “what we talk about here”. Luckily our boss and other coworker didn’t go along with it. Transphobic coworker has also been slightly patronizing to me at times, once even treating me like a child when I raised a concern (he put his hands on my shoulders, said “Did you know it’s going to be fine?”, and ignored anything else I said on the topic). Nothing actionable, and I’m not sure I can even explain it, but I would never want him to have power over me.

    4. Formulas are cool*

      I emailed the ethics department, which handles discrimination, and described what happened, so it’s out of my hands now. Thanks to everyone who commented, I felt like I was overreacting at first.

      1. Formulas are cool*

        I’ll spare you the exact details but he talked about his kid’s nonbinary teacher forcing their gender on his kids and “programming” them by reminding them which pronouns to use and he had to deprogram them every day when they came home from school. He also made a comment about how at least the school wasn’t programming his kids with Critical Race Theory and made a dog-whistly comment about the kids his oldest went to school with at his suburban private school.

          1. tessa*

            Cis middle-aged woman here and I so second this. We all must speak up, in some way or other, as often as possible to defeat bigotry.

            Proud of you, OP, and thanks for your efforts to effect change.

  21. irene adler*

    How does a company with very little turnover in the advanced positions, work to retain workers who have next to no chance of moving up in the organization?

    An acquaintance told me about his company and asked this question.

    They have people who stay for decades and have been advanced as far as there have been open positions. As a consequence, people hired at entry level cannot advance. But the company wants to keep these now trained entry level workers. For years they’ve given large annual bonuses (15%-20% of annual pay), wages at the top of the market, loads of benefits, created a hierarchy of titles to indicate a more experienced level worker, improved conditions when employees identify a problem, including them in process improvement projects, etc.

    Right now, about half of the entry level people leave right after they receive that annual bonus. Company hires replacements and the cycle repeats the next year. Company wants to stem the annual exodus. Suggestions?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Ugh this is hard. This was the problem in our last job. There was no upward movement and since it was a state office, the salaries were stagnant. I think being honest in interviews and hiring is the best way to go. Honestly plenty of people are happy to not move up in their jobs and would probably be thrilled to have a job with great pay and benefits where they might not be clambering to move up.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not sure much can be done there. When you say “wages at the top of the market,” do you mean that they’re getting paid what they’d be paid if there was actual room for promotion? If not, I would say pay them what they would pay if there was a possibility to move up.

      That said, I worked in a company like that before. It was small, and all the senior people had been there 15-20 years and were never going to leave. Lots of turnover for junior staff, and that turnover never ended.

    3. Star Struck*

      Growth is multidimensional. If you can’t move forward in role / title, does that mean your projects/ work are limited in scope, or can you do more interesting projects with larger scope ? Similarly, are wages capped ?

      I would be happy as a senior thingamabob polishers indefinitely, if I knew that over time I would get to polish increasingly more complex thingamabobs, that my wages would grow beyond cost of living increases, that the org recognized my experience and valued my input (I can have a say in the next new polishing machine we buy).

      Many places have a management track and a individual contributor track to avoid such problems.

    4. Part timer*

      Does the work have to be done full time? If they can get part time people (at good wages, and offer benefits for part timers), then people like parents with kids in school might be willing to stay at an entry level job. If I found a well paid job that with an expectation of work 5ish hours a day, around my kid’s schooling? I’d definitely be there through their elementary years (so 7 years total, between the number of kids I have) and if I did want to find full time work that allowed for more official advancement after that, I’d tell everyone I know about this awesome job.

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If they aren’t growing the business, then this is going to happen.

      All the owners need to do is try. Additional products, new customers, additional locations. Even an attempt to grow the business that fails will keep some people on. But to some extent this is just math.

    6. RagingADHD*

      You don’t have a quitting problem. You have a hiring problem.

      People leave jobs where they can’t get what they want.

      If the company offers security but no advancement, and they are hiring people who value advancement over security, they are hiring the wrong people.

      They need to change their hiring criteria to find people who will be happy with the situation they are offering. The question is, will the impact of that change be worse than the impact of high turnover?

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Vary those job responsibilities as much as you can. I have stayed a very long time with one organization largely because my “portfolio” of specific things I am working on has been changing every year or two. Before I got bored writing documents about teapot assembly, I was reassigned to teapot polishing white papers, from there marketing materials on teapot style choices, even given a chance to work on the manufacturing floor streamlining the process of transferring art onto blank porcelain teapots. Suddenly I’m one of the more senior people in my group because every time I’ve thought about leaving something new & interesting hit my desk.
      Give your accountants a chance to work with the IT department automating a process. Give your engineers a chance to manage small product releases or work with marketing on new product design. Make an executive assistant the official interim when vacations happen, or give them formal project management training because believe me, a highly involved exec assistant knows a lot more about the product line than companies give them credit for.
      And keep us posted, because this has the chance to be really interesting to read more about later!

    8. EJ*

      Any other opportunities for training and education to keep their brains engaged?

      I also fully agree that flexible schedule part time work will gain a very loyal base.

    9. Alternative Person*

      Like others have said, not much. If all the conditions are good, high level people are going to stay and entry-level are going to move on, if only for the sake of upward mobility. The only other thing I could suggest would be looking at the overall market and similar companies in the area, examining how they’re being able to attract away the entry-level staff, their hierarchies and how their higher level staff are treated and seeing if the company can be making changes.

      My company has a similar issue. Promotions rarely become available, are always competitive and after the position is filled there’s always an exodus of staff because the people who didn’t get the promotion know (in all probability) one won’t be available for a good five years, if they’re lucky. The company recently lost several experienced staff because they decided not to back-fill a lower-management position that is arguably key for the running of that particular department. I’m planning to leave as soon as I get the worst of my MA locked down unless something comes up.

      Granted, part of the issue at my company is the things that used to be true for the job/salary aren’t true anymore and the wider market is in a bit of a downward spiral which means the company does have some retention power for people at and just about the entry level, but they’re playing a very short sighted game with their high-level credentialed staff.

  22. snowyowl*

    I’ve accepted a job offer elsewhere, which is a relief for me, since my workplace is toxic, but now I’m worried about the people I’m leaving behind. I’m dealing with that as best I can, but I have a question about a specific individual.

    She’s a very good worker, but when she sees things that she thinks are unfair she is incapable of not bringing them up. And in a kind of negative “well obviously”, sarcastic way. I actually understand the urge here, because of the toxicity, but I think she’s been doing this for her whole career (it would explain the bad parting she had with a previous company), and I’m not sure if there is some way I can explain how this will negatively effect her moving forward?

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. TKZK*

      Nothing for you to do here. Don’t mention anything, she will find it condescending. I have a friend and former colleague who cannot resist calling people out at work for every perceived error. She’s smart and a good worker, but she is especially awful with authority figures. She actually got into a wresting match with a boss when she wouldn’t let him take something off of her desk. Let your colleague be herself! She will find her way.

      1. snowyowl*

        I now kind of wonder if we’re talking about the same person — I fully believe she’d get into a wrestling match with a boss about a desk item.

        I now have one vote for saying and one against. But thank you for answering!

    2. Sherm*

      Perhaps: “Jane, I notice that you make many negative comments. I realize that it may be a way to cope with everything going on here, but I worry that in future jobs it might be distracting and cause coworkers to dismiss your concerns, even when they are truly significant. I am just flagging this, as I know that you do great work and would hate to see this hold you back.”

    3. Isben Takes Tea*

      Honestly, unless you are in a supervisory position or she has explicitly asked you for feedback, I’d let it go, especially as you expect this is not a new behavior. (If it were new, you could go the “I’ve noticed this change — is everything okay?” route, but it’s not.) Even well-meaning advice from a good friend can be really hard to take if it’s not asked for, or there’s not a really solid base of trust already established.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        The other barometer I would use is asking yourself why you have the urge to bring this up now that you’re leaving, instead of earlier. If you wouldn’t bring it up if you weren’t leaving, I wouldn’t bring it up now–it feels a little condescending to say it as you walk out the door, as it were, and not part of an equal back-and-forth in an ongoing relationship.

    4. RagingADHD*

      If she asks, or is complaining about her career and why she can’t find something better, you have an opportunity to say that you think her default sarcasm mode is hurting her standing / relationships with the team, and she’d do better if she could pick her battles and frame her feedback constructively instead of sarcasticly.

      But I wouldn’t advise bringing it up yourself, because people aren’t usually open to hearing personal feedback out of the blue. They need to be in a receptive frame of mind for it to be helpful.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Quite simply, you are not responsible for her career.

      Figuring out most of life’s challenges – at least in the workplace – can be summed up by Glinda the Good Witch: “She had to learn it for herself.”

  23. Now With Extra Macaroni*

    I have been at my job for almost 8 years. I am underpaid for my qualifications and industry, and in my heart I’m ready to move on. However, I found out that I am being promoted in November (my company only does promotions once a year).

    Now I’m afraid to move on. This job is okay. At least I am employed. Maybe this promotion will finally pay me what I’m worth? Maybe it’ll be better to have one title higher while job searching? Leaving will also make my boss very upset (we’ve had high attrition in the past year or so, and he has no idea I’m even thinking of leaving). I am in knots about all of this (I’m a very anxious person in general). Does anyone have advice or personal experience? Thanks.

    1. ecnaseener*

      So, it definitely does help in the job search to have that promotion on your resume. But I don’t think you need to put your job search on hold until then, and definitely not for any longer!

      Job-searching is just looking, if you don’t find anything that beats “okay” and your new salary, then you’ll stay.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Seconding the “job-searching is just looking” point! Extra Macaroni, think of sending off a job application as “I am interested to learn a little bit more about this position. Maybe it will be a good step in my career, maybe it won’t be.” That’s all a job application is.

        A job application is NOT a betrayal of your current company, or an obligation to leave your current job.

        1. Observer*

          A job application is NOT a betrayal of your current company,

          Not only that. Even LEAVING is not a betrayal.

      2. Office plant lady*

        I agree with ecnaseener. Personally, I would stick around until November for the title bump and pay bump (and negotiate the pay increase as if you were planning on staying, just in case), and use it as a new baseline in the job search if you still feel like you want to move on. Nothing to stop you from looking at the lay of the land, polishing up your resume, and reaching out to any contacts now, though! And if a job posting that is really interesting to you comes up, you might as well apply.

    2. irene adler*

      What is the company policy (or track record) regarding the size of the salary increase for a promotion? Is that enough to equal your worth?

      It cannot hurt to apply and interview at other companies. You may find way better positions than what you have now.

      And: only YOU have your best interests at heart. Only YOU can take the steps to serve your best interests. No company is going to act in your best interest. It may SEEM like they are; such as when a job is offered to you that exceeds what you have now in every way. And it’s okay to accept such a job offer if it is in your best interests. So take the time to know what you want- and don’t want. Job hunting can help to crystalize which things matter most to you.
      OTOH, a company will not hesitate to lay you off if that is in their best interest. So why are you giving them your best (and your loyalty) when they are not reciprocating?

    3. orchivist*

      I’m also extremely anxious in general. For me, a lot of what helps with that is 1 gaining information and 2 reducing pressure.

      re 1: could you ask your boss what kind of raise would the promotion come with? is it possible to get back pay? how certain is the promotion/where did you hear about it from?

      re 2: Personally I would start looking at other jobs but be really selective about it, only applying to ones I actually think would be an improvement. If nothing happens before november, then you get promoted, and great, maybe you don’t want another job after all. if you do get a new job, great, you have a new job where you’re paid more and you like it better. Either way you end up in a probably-better place. Having a higher title might help you get hired but that’s not a guarantee so it doesn’t seem like something worth being miserable for three months for a Just In Case. If you’re applying for jobs, you’re in the same state as you currently are (at least you have a job, etc…) but you can feel like you’re doing some work towards changing the situation, which might help you feel more in control/less anxious.

      I also think that it’s important to remember that the maybe’s that apply to your promotion also apply to new jobs — maybe it’ll pay you what you’re worth, maybe it’ll give you the chance to get an “external promotion”, maybe you’ll get a boss who won’t take their stress out on you because your team is fleeing.

      I have been in this position and I applied for a job that felt like a huge reach but would be really exciting to me to do. I got it, and the other person at my level who was being promised a promotion “some time soon” didn’t get it for another 8 months. I’m glad I didn’t wait/that I had my eyes out for better jobs. Ultimately it’s a question of “which makes me more miserable: my current job, or the work it takes to find a new one?”

    4. Esprit de l'escalier*

      November is not that far away, so if it would ease your mind a bit to wait and see how the promotion pans out, that is a reasonable choice to make. BUT your boss’s possible reaction is absolutely not your concern. They pay you to do your job well, not to worry about your boss’s feelings. It’s normal for people to leave jobs, especially if they are being underpaid (surely you aren’t the only one). If attrition has been high, maybe there’s a wakeup call in there for your management.

    5. Observer*

      (I’m a very anxious person in general).

      If that’s really playing into this decision enough to keep you from moving on, please look into therapy.

      Leaving will also make my boss very upset

      Not your problem! Even if he were a great boss and did all the right things, such as making sure you are being paid an appropriate rate, it wouldn’t be your problem. Given that you are actually being underpaid, it’s even LESS your problem. If he’s a decent human being he’ll be ok with you moving on even though it makes his life more difficult.

      Take the promotion and then start *actively* looking. In the meantime, start be redoing your resume, and start researching the opportunities in your area. It’s already September, so you are only talking a couple of months, which is a pretty good amount of time to get your stuff in order for a serious job search.

  24. The Knight Yvain*

    In a comment thread a while back, someone mentioned an business/institute in Chicago that measured a person’s strengths & aptitudes. Does anyone know or remember its name?

    1. No fun name yet*

      Third suggestion for Johnson O’Connor–they’ve offices in a number of cities (full transparency I’ve been through their process in NYC (and highly recommend them to friends and family).

    2. OtterB*

      I recommend Career Vision in Glen Ellyn, IL. They use aptitude tests similar to Johnson O’Connor and other assessments to help with career decisions. (full disclosure, I used to work for them but left 15+ years ago for a relocation and have no ongoing involvement).

  25. Jimmy*

    I’ve always heard that some people think internally and some think out loud. I’ve discovered I’m definitely a person who thinks out loud and that my best ideas come when I’m giving direction on something and I suddenly hear myself making suggestions that haven’t been already in my head.

    I would love to find ways to control this – particularly as I’m a new manager and think my team is getting frustrated by changing / new directions as I’m often properly thinking things through when I’m explaining things to them.

    Anyone else deal with this and have strategies to think through major issues / strategies / directions BEFORE I start talking?

    1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      Is there another manager, or another person not on your team, you can talk things through with before you bring them to the team?
      If not, I’ve also found that I get similar results to talking aloud by writing an email about what we are going to do. Just make sure not to put anyone in the “to” line, or put yourself, in case you accidentally hit send!

    2. Justin*

      I am like this (it’s tied to my ADHD) and I do two things:
      I set up an occasional informal meeting just for ideas.
      I block off “focus time” on my calendar to brainstorm.

    3. orchivist*

      can you talk through stuff either by yourself (“practicing” giving instructions) or with a colleague who you aren’t giving the instructions to? A voice recorder might be helpful so that as you talk and change your mind you can go back and streamline it into one thing. You could also frame it as a conversation with your team and actually listen to their input as well as your own — basically bringing them in earlier on in the process.

      as an internal processor I do find it frustrating when people do this (it’s hard for me to keep track of frequent changes) but my partner thinks this way and we’ve developed ways of clarifying “I’m thinking out loud at you” vs “I want to have a conversation with you”

      programmers have a thing called “rubber ducking” or “rubber duck debugging” where they explain what’s going wrong with their program by talking conversationally to a rubber duck, and it often helps unstick them. I think finding a “rubber duck” (literal or figurative) might be the best way to do this.

      1. Svennerson*

        I was just coming to suggest the rubber duck. I’m somewhere in between, where half of my ideas come from internal thinking and half from external dialogue. It only took two weeks of my new job (where we’re all still fully remote, and since a lot of these tasks are solving small coding issues, discussing with others would be time consuming and not worth it) for me to designate a small crochet project from my partner as my sounding board. It’s helped immensely.

        Find a stand-in “rubber duck” you can give your direction to at first, maybe take notes down of new ideas that come up in that discussion, and iterate a couple of times until the new ideas are hashed out.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        my partner thinks this way and we’ve developed ways of clarifying “I’m thinking out loud at you” vs “I want to have a conversation with you”

        I appreciate it when I ask a question to an auditory processor and they respond with “I’m going to think out loud for a minute” and then ramble. I don’t interrupt their out-loud thinking, and I know I don’t have to pay close attention to all of it either.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes – my husband straight up has a literal rubber duck on his desk that he talks to, and I talk to my dogs.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      If there’s not a chance to specifically schedule some before-time to talk through the ideas to yourself (or a rubber duck, as programmers often do) then I find a useful trick is to frame the interaction clearly. When you realize you want to brainstorm, say that outloud, to warn your team that it may be a bit random for the next bit while you talk through ideas. So – if someone comes up and asks about teapot painting ideas for the next quarter, and you haven’t prepared anything, respond with something like ‘That’s a good question, let’s brainstorm about it for a minute’ or something similar. That way the team knows you might be swapping direction halfway through.
      Theoretically, as you become more aware of topics that will come up, you can prepare outlines to work from, which will keep you from entirely switching ideas halfway through a conversation.

    5. hi hello*

      Does talking out loud to yourself help? I find that practicing helps me get the more meandering thoughts ironed out before I talk to other people.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      In addition to trying to get ahead of the brainstorming, is there a way to build in time between what you realize you want during a meeting, and when someone has to act on it? If the team is feeling whiplash from perceived direction changes, give them the time to process that change.

  26. ecnaseener*

    Today on “No Stakes Just Curious Is This a Thing?”

    I got a resume from a recent graduate with a “professional shadowing” section that included informational interviews. Like with a date and the name of a person whom I guess they had an hour-long informational interview with.
    I’m so curious whether this is a thing! Is there a second meaning to “informational interview” that is resume-worthy, or did someone just give this person weird bad advice to list every professional they sat down for coffee with?

    1. Pascall*

      It really just seems like they thought it might be worth mentioning in lieu of actual experience. I don’t think I’ve seen it super often though. Recent graduates are gonna be the ones that tend to try to highlight things that they hope will substitute for actual work experience, I would imagine.

    2. aubrey*

      Seems really weird to me! They didn’t actually do anything but talk to the people? Are they just trying to show they’re really keen? I definitely don’t think it’s resume-worthy.

    3. Educator*

      Professional shadowing is becoming more of a thing in some degree programs, and it seems resume-worthy for a new grad if the shadowing happened over a sustained period, like every Friday for a semester, and required meaningful engagement, like the person being shadowed explaining their work and helping the shadower connect it to their coursework. Not as awesome as a true internship, but still potentially useful to a future employer. The shadower at least will have a better understanding of some professional norms and daily life in the industry.

      But I don’t think a 30 minute coffee date belongs on anyone’s resume, even if it was with Warren Buffett. My guess is that a career center or advisor told this person to include more sustained and meaningful shadowing experiences, and they overestimated the importance of passing encounters.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        I agree that this sounds like someone who misinterpreted a career center’s advice – something like, “you can include brief or unpaid work/internship experience on a resume, especially as a recent grad with little work history” and “informational interviews can be a great way to learn about an industry” as separate pieces of advice getting collapsed into “you can put informational interviews on a resume.”

    4. Anoynmous*

      This would not be weird in the niche industry I’m in (Genetic Counseling) but again it’s a niche sector of healthcare especially and this would be mainly for applying to grad school

      1. ecnaseener*

        That’s interesting that it’s a thing in at least one field! This candidate did seem to be looking to go into healthcare based on the rest of their resume so maybe they did get that advice for grad school applications and just didn’t tailor their resume at all for a non-healthcare job application. (That’s why I said this was a no-stakes question, they had zero relevant experience on their resume so we’re not moving forward with them regardless.) Thank you for satisfying my curiosity!

  27. Esprit de l'escalier*

    My sympathies, it’s really a dilemma. Is there any possibility of getting a different job within the company that doesn’t involve sharpening shears, or at least not All.The.Time?

  28. Anonyplatypus*

    I have a kind of follow-up question to last Monday’s “When Should I Let My New Boss Fail?” letter. I’m in a similar situation, in that I have a boss who is hands-off to the point that I feel that I’m doing all the work while they sit back and collect a paycheck. They delegate just about everything to other people (mostly me) to the point that I honestly don’t even know what they are contributing. They have been here for a little over a year now and still defer basic questions about our department to me because they don’t know the answers.

    I gave them a pass for a while because they are a first-time manager and I knew the learning curve for them would be steeper than it was for my previous bosses. And then I kind of fell into a rut of just trying to get the work done. About a month ago, something finally snapped in my brain and I asked for a one-on-one with Grandboss, where I told them a little of what I was seeing. Grandboss does very little direct supervision of our department (our department has always been that way, and became even more so after a corporate restructuring), but they told me that they had been hearing similar complaints from other people and that he was scheduling a talk with Boss.

    It’s been a couple of weeks since Grandboss/Boss Talk happened, and there have been a few minor changes. I think Grandboss is trying to force Boss to step up. I really don’t think things are going to change much though. In hindsight I realize that I didn’t really give Grandboss a good overview of how much I feel that Boss is actually undermining our department through their lack of action, I think the impression I gave was more that I was concerned they were shirking their duties (I had some really serious life events going on at the same time so was not in the most organized place, so that’s on me). So my question is, how much longer should I give my boss a second chance? At what point do I go to Grandboss again and tell them that this isn’t working, that even after I’ve directly told everyone that they have to speak with Boss about Issue, people are still secretly coming to me for help?

    1. Esprit de l'escalier*

      Tell these people, sorry, I can’t help you with this, it’s up to Boss. Then if they come back to you saying they can’t get anywhere with Boss, tell them you’re the wrong person to complain to, they need to go directly to Grandboss and be very specific with Grandboss about the problem. Grandboss needs to hear that things haven’t changed and the more people who convey that message, the better.

      1. All Het Up About It*

        Yep! They are “secretly” coming to you because you are still helping them.
        STAAAAHP!

        You really have two issues here. Letting your boss fail or telling your Grandboss that you aren’t letting your boss fail. Also nothing wrong with documentation that you can show Grandboss in a few weeks/months. When they come to you “secretly” tell them “as I said, you will have to speak with Boss about Issue, but I can email them that it is still unresolved.” Then email Boss and say, “Hi Boss – just to let you know Linda in Finance still needs an answer about how much red clay to order for next month’s teapot production. It’s important that she has this by the 15th or the vendor won’t be able to assure guarantee delivery. I let her know this decision requires your input.”

        If you do this, you likely won’t have to worry about how long to wait before you talk to Grandboss.

  29. Ms. Carter*

    I’m wondering if anyone has advice about a work situation that’s given me a lot of stress.
    I was hired about a year ago as a teapot strategist for a large organization. There is one other teapot strategist whose role is exactly the same as mine, although that strategist came in with a couple years more experience and a title one step up from the one I came in with. There is also a teacup strategist on our team, who has a role that’s analogous to ours, but covers a different product. We were all hired at the same time, about a year ago.

    Our boss recently sent an OOO email that listed my fellow strategist as the contact for teapot questions and the teacup strategist as a contact for teacup questions. My name was not on the email at all. It made me feel incredibly insecure and unimportant.

    I have had two jobs in a row where I really never felt like I got a foothold because of overt organizational toxicity. This role is not like that. Everyone is great, so if I’m not able to succeed in this role, it’s on me, not the role. I can’t tell if this email is an indicator that I’m regarded as an afterthought or incapable, or if I’m being paranoid because of past experience. I have had nothing from good feedback from my boss since arriving in my role, but I feel sidelined and I don’t know why. I feel terrible about it.

    Does anyone have reframing or professional experience perspective thaf might be helpful for me?

    1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      My gut is to ask your boss about it when they return! So often managers do things with innocuous intent (or for no real reason, it just happens that way) but they are perceived as indicative of something stressful. I always appreciate when staff ask me about things like this, because almost always they’ve been really worried and I was just trying to do whatever was simplest/fastest/made the most sense.

      1. Ms. Carter*

        Thank you for the reply! Would it make sense to ask him even though I asked a similar question (about five months ago) about a similar scenario? He definitely didn’t seem bothered by my asking, and it turned to not be any kind of slight or reflection on my skills, but I don’t want to build a reputation as insecure or high maintenance.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          I think you might be taking this harder than he intended it. He’s probably trying to avoid a super lengthy out of office response to begin with, so it only makes sense to name the next senior person in the department for each area as a contact. He’s delegating to the next person reporting to him, that’s all.

          1. All Het Up About It*

            Agree.
            These two are the senior individuals on the team. It doesn’t matter that the seniority is in title not really time.

            Also as a boss who has to have OOO replies directing people to certain individuals, it is SOO helpful no to have to figure out who a person reached out to when I was gone. It’s hard enough trying to figure out if I DO need to respond or if it was handled without asking multiple people if they handled things.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      You acknowledge that the other teapot strategist is more senior (both in terms of experience and in terms of title). It is 100% normal to leave the (one) name of the most senior person who can answer questions on an OOO message — in fact, many wouldn’t have bothered listing the separate teacup strategist. The OOO message isn’t a department directory, it is just the name of usually one contact who can traffic cop. It would be strange indeed to list two different contacts for the same topic in an OOO message. You should read nothing into this other than totally common professional norms.

    3. Anna Badger*

      if it helps reframe, everywhere I’ve ever worked it has been the norm to list a single point of contact for each area in an OOO. when I’m off I tend to rotate who I list as the point of contact within each of the two teams I look after, so that my absence doesn’t always mean the same person having to pick up questions – it’s definitely not hierarchical, it’s mostly about sharing out the triaging.

    4. bb*

      I definitely think you could be overthinking this. I currently manage 5 people, who do 2 distinctly different functions. When I’m out of office, I rarely even give 2 names (1 from each function). I typically put 1 person in charge of covering for me (and have them in the OOO email) with the expectation that they filter it to anyone from there. I think it would be confusing to expect someone who has worked with alone me to evaluate who on the list of 5 people is the right person for their specific request. I also like to have 1 person to come back to when I get back from time off in order to understand how it went and any issues or concerns. You say that you’ve gotten good feedback. Do you feel included in other ways? Is your opinion listened to? Are you given ownership of decisions or projects that you should within your role? Are you getting clear actionable feedback on your performance? If so, then I’d consider this as your past experience coloring this job.

      1. Ms. Carter*

        I just want to say thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I’m tearing up a little! I dealt with a relatively large amount of abuse and rejection in my past and I struggle often to not let it make me act in reactive, self-destructive ways. That email was really getting to me for some reason. It’s such a relief to get a group consensus that I’m overthinking it and be able to let it go without worrying it’s a sign that there’s something going on that I’m missing.

        1. Retired to Morning Room to Write My Letters*

          Best of luck! These old experiences can really do a number on us, so I sympathise!

  30. Anonymous Educator*

    For those who have been part of a mass layoff at work, is there anything your former employer did that softened the blow a bit that you appreciated. Anything you wish they’d done (I mean, apart from letting you keep your job)?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’ve been through two big layoffs, the second one was during covid (Nov 2020) and the best thing they did was keep paying everyone’s health insurance for three months. I didn’t end up needing it, but it was nice to know I had it. That may have been a function of the time though.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      My company did a 60 day “working notice” period, which meant they announced the layoffs and then we had to work the next 60 days to wrap up projects, train our already overworked colleagues who would be inheriting our work, and suffer through the range of odd behavior from soon to be former coworkers who couldn’t think of anything sensible to say. It would have been better if they had made it quicker. It was the most difficult 2 months of my entire career. Unfortunately, the severance package (which was actually pretty generous) was contingent on working a full schedule, complete with metrics to evaluate whether we were just phoning it in, otherwise it might have been almost tolerable! At least we were permitted to send resumes and accept phone calls from potential new jobs while on the clock. (In person interviews had to be off hours or use PTO if you had any left. The layoffs were announced in November, so a lot of people didn’t have many days left.)
      I’m sorry you’re going through this, and wish you great success in whatever your next adventure turns out to be!

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      We were laid off right after Memorial Day 2020, but they made our official layoff date 6/1 so that we would get an extra 30 days of insurance. And then they covered the cost of COBRA for another 6 months for the exact same coverage. And then everyone got severance based on seniority, so I got 6 months.

      The HR reps weren’t all on the same page. Mine told me different things than my coworker’s rep that I wouldn’t have known if he and I didn’t talk.

    4. Russian in Texas*

      6 months of medical insurance at current premiums, meaning the company continued to pay their part.

    5. Despachito*

      They gave us a pretty generous severance package, plenty of time as notice period, and, as our work was being outsourced to an agency, contacted us with the agency so that we could continue providing them our services as freelancers.

    6. aubrey*

      A chunk of severance money and a good reference, and offered to connect us with people in associated companies that might be hiring.

    7. Anonjustthisonce*

      I wish they had managed their own emotions and not expected me to help them with that emotional labor. My company laid off all but a few employees to ride out the pandemic, and I felt like I spent a disproportionate amount of time in my final weeks consoling the tiny minority who felt bad about staying as I handed work off. Just be professional and normal!

    8. Mockingjay*

      Helpful: We got 60 days notice. (Contract lost funding.) Company rules stated you weren’t allowed to use leave during the notice period. Our manager completely ignored that rule and had no problem with us taking off time to interview, and let us take planned vacations. People were completely open about job searching. One of us would come in, work a few hours, then change outfits and leave for the interview. Then they’d come back and change back into work clothes (we were on the shop floor) and everyone, including Manager, would ask how it went.

      What I wish they would have done: The company HR was supposed to help you look for internal openings. It was a large company with multiple offices, so there were a number of promising openings for most of us. When we contacted HR, they were extremely unhelpful in connecting us to these other managers and assisting the internal application process. I found a job with a different company prior to the layoff date and gave notice. My last day, my manager came to me about an opening and asked me to stay on with company. I was not happy; I had inquired numerous times about the internal position and heard nothing. I chose to leave.

    9. Chauncy Gardener*

      In addition to severance, my company lets outgoing employees keep their (company paid for) laptops and cell phones. I think that’s pretty nice.

  31. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

    I’m currently a Director, applying for an internal promotion to VP. I have a long commute, so I recently applied for a (lateral move) Director position in an equivalent organization much closer to my home. I was ultimately not selected for that position, and then the VP role opened here. On the encouragement of my boss, I decided to apply for that and was selected for an interview next week. The COO who interviewed me for the other Director position is on my interview panel. (I think that is unusual in many contexts, but it is standard in my industry to have panelists from other organizations once you get to the VP or higher level.) Is there anything I should take into account about this as I do my interview prep? The other interview was just in mid-July, plus COO and I have collaborated at industry events in the past, so I don’t think she’s going to forget that she has only just interviewed me, and for a lower role than this one.

    1. snowyowl*

      I’ve had this happen to me before — it always feels really awkward and I hate it but honestly I wouldn’t worry about that. And I recognize that I always worry about it, but honestly if they’re doing interviews they’re not going to be surprised by this.

      Make a point to emphasize what you’re bringing to the table to this VP position and what your strengths are. My only note would be if you had been very enthusiastic about a specific aspect of the Director job, other then the location, don’t be unenthusiastic about that now. It might help to also just practice what you would say if she did ask about it — unlikely, but I like to be overly prepared. And I think “I wasn’t aware this position would be opening up, wanted to see what was out there and was potentially looking for a shorter commute” is an easy answer. You wouldn’t want to spend too much time on this. (And realistically I think it’s unlikely to come up, but for your own peace of mind).

  32. A Nonny Nonny*

    So I am up for internal transfer to a better job, but my current boss is pushing a counteroffer with a pay raise that might be higher than the new job. I do not have an offer on the new job yet and told my boss that I can’t decide until I have one. How can I handle this gracefully while keeping my options open? Part of the move is to get away from my boss and I am worried about retaliation.

    1. BellyButton*

      You can say “I am really looking forward to a new opportunity in a new team. I think the knowledge and experience in a different area/position will really help with my growth and company knowledge. I have learned so much working with you and this team, I want to be able to use it to benefit other areas.”

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think you were smart to say you can’t consider your boss’s counteroffer until you get the offer on the other position. When you do get that offer, try and zero in on the non-monetary aspects of this new position. If your current boss tries to beat the salary on your new offer, be ready with those non-monetary things you’re looking forward to in the new job. It’s not about the money, it’s about the experience this new job would offer you.

      And even though the boss is part of the reason you’re moving, you’re allowed to fib a little here and say you’re grateful for all the things you’ve learned in this position, but you’re ready to try new things as a part of a different team.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Was your boss understanding about “I can’t decide unless I get an offer?” Or are they pushing?

    4. WellRed*

      If you want to get away from your boss and you’re worried about retaliation to boot, why would you accept his counter offer.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I read it as wanting to appear to consider the counteroffer to reduce the risk of retaliation but that Nonny isn’t actually considering it.

        I like the suggestions to really lean into the “learn new things and experience new challenges” aspects.

  33. Anon for this*

    Struggling with a covid policy. Boss thinks that with the CDC policies changing, we need to let unvaccinated workers return to the office. A couple of employees have young children at home and are against it. Unvaxxed wants to come back. I don’t know the right direction to push – from a business/professional perspective, I have my personal biases.

    1. ferrina*

      I’m against it. If you can work from home, then unvaxxed folks can do that. It’s similar to not coming to work with norovirus- it’s so contagious that even if your symptoms are mild, why on earth would you expose your coworkers to it? And since Covid likes to hide and is usually contagious before symptoms appear, minimizing risk to workers seems like the smart thing to do, both on a human level and on a business level (one of our offices had an outbreak after a team get together- half the team was out for a week and it was hell trying to get the deliverables out on time)

    2. Anon for this*

      Some additional information: our unvaxxed have had covid and are open to being asked to mask. We have some immunocompromised people in the office but they aren’t the ones objecting to the return.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        If the unvaxxed had covid recently, that should be providing some protection. I’m vaxxed and boosted, but also just had covid, and the recommendation is that I don’t get an additional booster now, but wait for at least 6 months: the disease itself gave me the booster.

    3. calvin blick*

      I don’t necessarily think whatever the CDC says is automatically right or a good idea, but if the ostensible experts say it is okay, it is hard to argue against.

      However, the young children people can get their kids vaccinated and it is undeniable that young kids are (unless they have other health issues) extremely unlikely to have any bad effects from covid besides being sick for a week or so. I’d be pretty sympathetic if the immunocompromised folks objected, but the kids should be fine.

      1. Anon for this*

        I think that’s the biggest issue I’m grappling with. I know COVID isn’t over and the people who don’t want the policy to change have excellent points (even if the kids will be fine – the parents aren’t wrong to be worried about getting it themselves or spreading it). But when schools are changing rules and mask mandates are going away…I feel stuck.

        1. Minimal Pear*

          I think in this kind of situation being overcautious is better than the alternative. I would definitely err on the side of not returning to the office, only having certain people come in, a staggered schedule, etc etc.

      2. AnonyMouse*

        Yeah – the fact is that having young children at home is not a very good science-based reason to push back, because young children can now get vaccinated.

        Do the unvaccinated workers want to come back? Is it because the vaccinated people in the office are taking on tasks that can’t be done from home? Could the people pushing back be allowed to WFH? I think the business reasons matter in the conversation.

        1. Anon for This*

          We’re hybrid. No one wants to WFH full time, but we’ve forced it for people who are unvaccinated.

          1. AnonyMouse*

            If you’re all hybrid, could the people objecting have the option to not come on days where unvaccinated people come in? Like bring back unvaccinated people only on Tue and Thurs.

      3. ferrina*

        Kids can get vaxxed, but the youngest aren’t fully vaxxed yet. Especially if there is vaccine shortage in your area. My little one won’t be fully protected for another month, even though I got her vaxxed as soon as possible based on vaccine availability in my area (even cutting short a vacation so she could get to the clinic during their availability window- otherwise it would have been another month +).

        Parents need more time to reasonably be able to get their little kids vaccinated. Maybe another month or two (again, depending on availability in your area)

        1. Double A*

          I think this only a fair point only if it’s true in OP’s area. I got my under-5 kids their first shots as soon as possible with moderna so they’ve both been fully vaxxed for over a month. I know the Pfizer course takes longer but that’s also a choice people are making and I don’t really think other people need to someone’s choice for a slower timeline (again, this is different if moderna or the vaccines in general weren’t actually available in a timely manner. In my state in the US, there were appointments available literally 2 days after the vaccine approval).

          1. Grogu's Mom*

            Hm, I don’t know that Pfizer was “a choice” for the majority of under-5s. (I know you say “only if true in OP’s area” but just want to point out that it isn’t an unusual situation.) My under-5 got Pfizer for three big reasons. First, it was the first appointment available and we had been waiting so long we jumped on it as soon as we could. Second, we went through the county, where the shot was free with no insurance required, and they only offered Pfizer. We were in the midst of switching insurance/pediatricians due to a new job, so it would have been a lot more complicated to seek out a pediatrician offering Moderna, and most of them weren’t offering a choice anyway – it was just whatever they had in stock that day. Third, the research I saw at the time implied that three doses of Pfizer provided stronger immunity than Moderna, and Moderna would probably be requiring a third booster at some point anyway. So, we got Pfizer, we’re two weeks away from her final shot, and a month away from full immunity. And we were one of the earliest to get it, within a week or so after it was first available. I think we’re at least a couple months away from saying anyone who wanted it has had time to get it and be fully vaccinated.

    4. Observer*

      Why are people objecting? I think that that’s the key question. If they don’t want to vaccinate their kids, that’s a non-starter. If it’s “I don’t trust the CDC” I have a lot of sympathy, but it’s not really helpful. The CDC is the best we have and ultimately employers who have followed the CDC, with all of its bungling, have by and large done better for their employees than the ones who didn’t follow the CDC.

      If there is something else specific to your workplace, then that needs to be evaluated.

      A key piece of this is that your un-vaccinated folks are open to masking. I’d also suggest making sure that ventilation / HVAC systems are all really up to par, with good air turnover.

      1. Anon for This*

        I think it’s a mixture of “I don’t trust the CDC”, bias against antivaxxers, and some irrational fear. This is a helpful perspective thank you.

    5. Snarky McSnarkerson*

      Any private company is permitted to have stricter guidelines surrounding COVID safety. That’s why the CDC offers “guidelines.” However, if the boss is the one wanting the unvaxxed to come back, I think you would have to have other policies in place, such as masking when not at your desk, restrict number of people in the office (or conference room, or kitchen), have hand sanitizer and anti-bac wipes everywhere (which don’t really affect the spread of COVID, but make people feel better). Are you able to provide a draft policy covering these types of things? Would your boss listen? Aside from your personal biases, COVID is still deadly to some people. I think the young children would be fine, but there’s no guarantees! I would be more concerned about co-workers who have older or high-risk people at home.

      1. Hen in a Windstorm*

        Oh holy crap are you misinformed. Vaccination very much *does* prevent you from getting COVID and spreading it. It is not 100% and was never expected to be, but your statement is a gross exaggeration of that fact. Please educate yourself. Your Local Epidemiologist is a great resource for someone who can talk to lay people about the science.

        1. This Old House*

          I’m sorry if I said something technically incorrect. The intention of my comment was that enough fully vaccinated and boosted people will be able to get and spread COVID (Omicron specifically – though maybe the new boosters will change this calculation) that keeping unvaccinated people out of your office does not seem like a particularly effective method of avoiding COVID, keeping your kids safe, etc. As such, it seems like this is a move that does more to punish people for their decisions than to keep employees’ families safe. (And I say this as someone fully vaccinated and looking forward to a bivalent booster soon – but also as someone’s whose whole vaccinated family got omicron this year. And I was glad we acted like our vaccines wouldn’t prevent us from getting it, because we were able to confine it primarily to our household by quarantining anyway.)

    6. Anita, Darling*

      A fair solution will balance the productivity, health, and quality-of-life concerns without making it about resentment or punishing wrong behavior (in this case the unvaccinated).

      My vote would be to let them return. The easiest is just use the CDC policies. They are a fallible human organization and honestly the biggest use is to use their recs as a schelling point that you can blame policies on.

      Most people with children under 5 are still sending them to group childcare, taking them to playgrounds, etc. so they are getting plenty of exposure. It would be a courtesy to create a timeline for returning staff to let them vaccinate their kids if there are timing issues.

    7. Kotow*

      I think to make a decision, there are a few things to keep in mind: at this point in the pandemic, we’re at a level where those who wish to be vaccinated or have their families vaccinated have the ability to do so. If they haven’t been able to be fully vaccinated due to the spacing, they’ve had the ability to get the process started for the youngest children. I realize not every community has had the same level of access, but even if the access isn’t available *now* it will be. Mask, vaccination, and testing requirements have fallen away in most public venues and everyone who ventures out into the world is ultimately in a situation where they are surrounded by people unmasking whose vaccination status is unknown. While vaccinations do assist in preventing transmission, their primary purpose is to prevent severe disease (at which they’re extremely successful!) and unfortunately it is not a guarantee at preventing infection; as proven by the numerous vaccinated and boosted people who have caught Covid at “Show Your Vax Card” events. People who are unvaccinated have their reasons for doing so and at this point have heard all of the information and made their own choices. An unvaccinated employee is just as likely to become sick from a vaccinated employee who had such minor symptoms they wouldn’t have even considered Covid a possibility. So that’s a risk assessment on the unvaccinated employee’s part and they appear willing to assume it.

      With that being the reality, I think if you’re going to push back on allowing unvaccinated employees return to the office, it’s necessary to consider the purpose of excluding them in the first place. With the transmissibility being so high, excluding unvaccinated employees simply will not prevent someone from coming down with Covid and bringing it to the office because they believed it to be “just allergies.”

  34. OyHiOh*

    An intern recently started at my org. The intern is a woman, of traditional college age. It can be safely assumed that her path from high school to college to work has been thoroughly derailed by COVID. She’s in a different department from me, although she sits across the aisle from me, and has an entirely different (and entirely male) reporting chain. Should I say something to her about clothing norms?

    She is not here full time (part time internship coupled with campaign work and classes) and I’m not sure how much she’s really been able to observe how the rest of the women here dress. We’re a business casual office that hits sorta in the middle of the “business casual” spectrum. The intern comes in, in shorts. To be fair, nice shorts of good quality fabric, not denim cut offs or otherwise wildly out of touch but also shorter than any of the skirts that come into the office.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Who is in charge of supervising her? Interns are there to learn, so the feedback is fine, but all things being equal I’d suggest a comment about appearance come from the person designated to oversee her.

    2. Pascall*

      Are you female presenting or male presenting? I think it may be a little awkward if coming from a traditionally male presenting person, but someone female presenting may have a little bit of standing to mention something like: “I really like your outfit! You may want to check with your supervisor about the shorts- I’ve heard some people be asked to wear pants/longer skirts instead, but they’ll be able to tell you for sure.”

      If you’re male presenting or a cis guy, it may come across differently though (not to say that it SHOULD come across different or weirdly; that’s just the typical assumption given our current societal norms) – so you’ll just want to be a little careful if that’s the case to not make it seem as though you were “distracted” by the length of her shorts and that it’s not really YOU who cares what she wears; it’s the office culture.

      1. OyHiOh*

        I am female presenting.

        The person directly supervising is male (and LGBTQ+), his supervisor is also male.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You’d be doing her a huge favor if you talk to her. Something along the lines of, “Hey, just so you know, this isn’t really a shorts-to-the-office kind of office, even though it looks pretty casual here.” If you’ve noticed, other people have noticed, and maybe some of them are judging her professionalism rather than chalking it up to this being her first time in an office.

      I would also send her this from Corporette about business casual: corporette-dot-com slash business-casual-for-women .

        1. londonedit*

          Would also suggest not doing it on a day when she’s actually wearing shorts, as she’ll then feel embarrassed all day about wearing the wrong thing – maybe pick a day when she’s wearing something more office-appropriate and then do the ‘Hey, I love your dress today! Just so you know, that totally fits our business-casual look, but we’re not really a shorts kind of office…’ thing.

      1. Observer*

        This is very on point.

        Also, I’d be willing to bet that her supervisor doesn’t know what to say to her, or if it’s even ok to say something.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Yeah, I’d check in with her supervisor about it. Not to get her in trouble, but to say you’ve noticed it and you’d be willing to help her learn more about workplace clothing norms.

          1. All Het Up About It*

            Yep. I like this idea too, just in case he 1) was feeling awkward about it and is happy to have a woman mentor his female intern about business clothing or 2) to confirm that for some crazy reason he didn’t tell her that it was acceptable to wear shorts.

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I completely agree. In my first job out of college I took to wearing shorts in the summer (business casual office) and eventually the company owner noticed and asked my boss to talk to me about it. It was so awkward! It felt like it was made out to be a bigger deal than it was because it was a directive of the owner, whereas if she’d just pulled me aside to say “hey the shorts you’re choosing are too short for this office, they need to be at least mid-thigh” or whatever we both would have been a lot more comfortable.

  35. Summer Hot Chocolate*

    I entered “my boss hates me” in the AAM blog search bar and found a reader’s post about “set up to fail syndrome” in the archives. I feel like it fits my situation!

    My first six months at my current job were great and I got along really well with my boss. I looked forward to going to work. After that, my boss started treating me differently, and things have only gotten worse. Over the past several months, I’ve become miserable. I’m having health issues because I dread going to work so much.

    If I find a new job, what do I say if my boss wants to know why I’m leaving? Especially if my new job is the same as my current entry-level job? With the way she treats me, I’d think she’s trying to get me to quit and would be happy, but she might actually be angry because there’s a hiring freeze for the foreseeable future and our office is quite busy for most of the year. (It seems like she’s unhappy with me no matter what I do, so I guess what explainstion I give might be “wrong” anyway!)

    1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      “Oh, the hours/commute/benefits/whatever are going to work better for personal reasons. I couldn’t pass it up!”

      1. Pascall*

        I always go for the benefits excuse- they can be sneaky and try to verify the other stuff, but normally, someone outside of the company shouldn’t be able to figure out what your benefits will be to argue about them.

    2. Esprit de l'escalier*

      If your boss is actually the reason you’re leaving, you don’t owe her a truthful or even a halfway believable explanation. It’s fine to say “It’s a really good opportunity for me, too good to pass up.” If she pushes for specifics, you don’t have to give them. Do the broken-record thing: “Like I said, it’s just such a great opportunity for me.” “They have incredible benefits.” The hiring freeze is not your concern.

    3. OrdinaryJoe*

      Second and third’ing the recommendations to keep it very high level, casual, ‘just too good of an opportunity’ sort of thing.

      One thing I’d add is … I personally wouldn’t tell her or anyone who might tell her where you’re going. I wouldn’t trust her with that information, especially if there’s a chance she’ll be angry. If asked, remind yourself … she really doesn’t care because she likes you and is happy, she’s just being nosy. “I prefer not to say, thanks!” is just as valid as “blah blah blah, Inc.!” as an answer.

    4. Pobody’s Nerfect*

      Who the eff cares what a bullying toxic boss says or thinks when you find another job and quit. If she was a decent person she wouldn’t be tearing you badly. So don’t worry about what to say, just some version of “I’ve had another job offer and decided to take it. My last day will be on ___.” That’s it. Bad bosses don’t deserve more than the bare minimum.

  36. Gosling*

    What is a professional, gentle way to decline answering a question regarding personal feelings about an employee? I have a supervisee that has had a number of performance issues that we haven’t been able to resolve, and everyone is getting frustrated. He told another supervisor that the issues were because I don’t like him. That supervisor believes anything he says.

    I don’t dislike him, but whether I do or don’t also has zero to do with what we are discussing. We are set for a meeting later today, and I worry it is going to pop up again and that declining to answer is going to validate that belief .

    1. Pascall*

      Bring the examples of the performance issues to back up your point about what’s going on. Information that clearly says “they are/aren’t doing X, Y, and Z, and it’s effecting A, B, C outcomes on the following projects”. Something like that. Keep feelings and personal bias out of it completely and focus on the facts of what the person is failing to do and who that is affecting besides you. (You can keep it general to something like “it’s affecting the front-office team” vs naming names).

      1. Pascall*

        If they ask whether or not it’s “because you don’t like me”, you can just say, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but this is about the outcomes of these projects, not my feelings.”

        It doesn’t give them a yes or no to go on (and you’re free to still not like them if that’s the case… lol)

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          I agree with your first comment, but really dislike “I’m sorry you feel that way” – it comes off as if a person’s experience is unimportant in any way, which is pretty unhelpful. I’d prefer to keep the focus and framing on what the conversation IS about. If asked directly, Gosling can say “We’ve been working together on the performance issues I just talked about, which need to be addressed no matter how anybody feels about you/him.” (It’s unclear to me whether Gosling is meeting with the employee or the other supervisor.)

      2. Unum Hoc*

        Retired teacher here and too late to help. When I was teaching middle school art, students (and their parents) often took grades as a matter of ‘liking’ the student/their product versus when it was really a matter of how much they were able to represent the techniques I was teaching and that we had worked together on. I had rubrics. The students had many opportunities to improve the work, even through the next term.

        Showing the parent/student what they did right before expanding on what was expected and how they needed to improve the mark/product to attain a more favourable mark was important. Whether or not they wanted to put the extra work in was up to them.

        It was a matter of balancing the positives, what they were doing right, with the negatives, what was needed to improve/succeed, to take the “Teacher doesn’t like me” part out of the equation.

        Business, I gather, is much the same way.

        Balance “What you are doing right” with “Here’s how you need to improve “.

    2. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      “I don’t want to get sidelined with personal feelings – whether or not I like Joe on a personal level isn’t relevant.” And then segue into talking about objective, documented performance issues.

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      I can’t provide a shining example here, but am happy to share a cautionary tale… I was accused of doing something because the person thought I hated them (which I actually had a neutral to positive opinion prior to the fuss) and my mouth engaged without my brain and I said, “that’s nuts, they don’t pay me enough to bother hating anyone!” While that happens to be true, it was also taken poorly.

        1. Alternative Person*

          I totally get it. I once dug half moons into my palms to keep my mouth from saying what I really thought during a rather heated conversation.

    4. Observer*

      We are set for a meeting later today, and I worry it is going to pop up again and that declining to answer is going to validate that belief .

      Why would you decline to answer? You are completely correct that your like or dislike has nothing to do with the issue, but declining to answer turns it into a big deal.

      Do keep the focus on the specific, concrete and (hopefully) measurable issues you are seeing, though.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        I agree with this. “My personal feelings aren’t relevant here. The issues are that Barnaby is not checking his work and is sending it out with lots of errors; he’s coming in late every Monday and leaving early every Friday; and he’s hoarding information on Project X so that no one else can get any work done on it.”

    5. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I tend to agree that skirting it will validate the belief. If I heard “my feelings aren’t relevant” or “this isn’t about my feelings” I would definitely infer that you don’t like me! But it’s pretty likely that nothing you say will change their belief, unfortunately. I probably wouldn’t preemptively talk about it because that sounds defensive but if he brought it up I might say: “Joe, I don’t dislike you. This is about how you’re doing your job. I need you to work on XYZ.”

  37. MJ*

    My amazing boss is dealing with a terrible family emergency. I feel so sorry for him and I want to somehow demonstrate support for him. Besides picking up work he doesn’t have the spoons for and I can do, is there an appropriate way to show said support? We’re a tiny department where my boss and I are the only two FTEs and some of our work overlaps just on the basis of “someone has to do it.” We also work with emotionally difficult things which causes some blurring of professional boundaries on my part in that “we know what a thing is like that others don’t experience” way and I am trying my best to not let that get blurrier.

    1. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

      When a coworker was dealing with a health issue, I would randomly go and drop a couple of chocolates that I knew she liked on her desk before she came in. Just a little, “somebody is thinking of you” sort of thing.

  38. Selina Luna*

    Because of allergies, I always look like I’m crying at work. This sucks, and I’m trying to get it under control with medication. But I teach, and I have students ask about my well-being every day.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Can you do a preemptive announcement at the beginning of the school year/semester? (If you don’t already.)

      “I have allergies that make my eyes red and teary. I’m fine, so there’s no need to ask me if I’m OK or if I’ve been crying.”

      Won’t stop all of the questions, but it may cut down on them quite a bit.

    2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Maybe you could get a cheerful little button badge which says “I’m not crying, I have allergies!”, maybe with a little pic of a flower or something.

      Probably wouldn’t completely stop it happening, because of people who are shortsighted or don’t come close enough or just don’t notice the badge. But might reduce the percentage a bit more.

    3. Double A*

      What age kids? It could be kind of funny to make a big button that says, “Not crying, just allergies” or something and point to it when folks ask. Unfortunately it’s just a conversation you’ll have to have frequently!

  39. Liz in the Midwest*

    Low stakes question: I am in academia, and my dept has a new chair! She’s been teaching at our institution for several years already, and I suspected I’d like having her as chair, but I didn’t anticipate how immediately much more happy it would make me. She’s thoughtful, considerate, proactive, kind… Just great.

    Being chair is generally something people do because it’s kind of their turn, not because they actively want to. It’s a lot of work. Any advice on how I can tell her I’m appreciating her without making it sound like I’m complaining about the last chair?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Can you pick one or two things she’s done/situations she’s handled that you especially appreciate, and compliment her on those? If you stick to one or two specific things it will feel like “you were so great the way you handled XYZ” and less like “wow, you’re so thoughtful [and the old chair was a clod].”

      1. Liz in the Midwest*

        That is a good call! I like the idea of being specific rather than just like “I’m so glad we have YOU!”

    2. WiscoKate*

      We just got a new chair too, it’s always an interesting time. I would just find a time when you are perhaps speaking more casually (if you are routinely in this position) and mention how much you’ve enjoyed a, b, c. Don’t even mention the previous chair.

    3. Pascall*

      I have no advice but I’m gonna be honest, I thought you were talking about like an actual physical chair. Like furniture. Lol.

    4. Justin*

      Just say it like that. (Also are you my friend Liz who is a professor in the midwest?)

      “I really appreciate the (details details) you’ve brought to the role.”

      1. Liz in the Midwest*

        I don’t think so, but maybe? Is your Liz in a STEM field and is known for her obsession with a specific breed of dog?

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Has anything changed since the last chair, that wasn’t directly related to the chair?

      When I started my current job, my boss was a woman who had built the department pretty much from the ground up (starting in the 1970s). As time went on, she lost touch with the kind of technology we needed and things really started to get out of sync with the outside world. When she retired, her successor was not a tech person himself but understood that we needed it and looked for someone who was strong in it.

      So . . . they both did really important things for the department. Very, very different things, but nevertheless still important. When our new executive director interviewed everyone and asked for our views on how the departments seemed to be working, I told her that I appreciated how much work Previous Boss had done but was also grateful that they had hired Successor Boss, who had a more-recent background in our discipline, to update our methods.

    6. Four of ten*

      I used to work in academia. You’ve almost got it with the words you wrote here. Focus on the present: I appreciate what you’re doing as chair. I know it’s a lot of work. Good to have you in this position. (Or something like that).

  40. Saraquill*

    Sharing an odd interview experience from two weeks ago. The position was Office Administrator, and the job description included “tasks needed for traveling.” Trade shows in the field happen, but this could mean anything from making travel arrangements to working at the trade shows myself.

    Three people interviewed me at once, all cheerful and happy to talk. They couldn’t say what my salary and benefits would be. They were happy to say, with bright faces and laughing voices that “we’re like a work family,” “can’t take anything personally,” and “the boss is the biggest challenge.” They also emphasized multitasking is a must here, and I’d be spending plenty of time on my feet going up and down the floors of the building and to other parts of the city.

    While I had my handy list of questions in front of me and a pen, this interview quickly turned into “say you need disability accommodations without saying you’re disabled.” When I said I have limited stamina and running around would be challenging, the air went out of the room and the interview ended.

    All in all, I’m happy I haven’t heard back from them.

  41. Kesnit*

    A little humor…

    I have the same first name as one of my co-workers. (Spelled differently, but said the same.) For clarity, we are both called by our last names. (Even our folders on the shared office drive are our last names.)

    This week, my same-name co-worker announced he is leaving at the end of September. I was chatting with our boss, the office manager, and another co-worker about his departure and jokingly asked “will I get to go by my first name now?” Without missing a beat, they all looked at me and gave a variation of “no!”

    1. Librarian of SHIELD*

      At one of my previous jobs we had Lindsey and Lindsay. We called them E and A. Even after E transferred to another location, A was still A because it was what we were used to calling her.

    2. NOT Little Laura*

      At a previous job I had the same first name & last initial as my direct boss. She was kind a Terrifying Woman. In a large team meeting (I was there, my boss was not) one of the founders suggested we call her “Big Laura,” and me, “Little Laura.” I hated this idea for both of us and quickly asked the founder who was going to break it to her that her name was now BIG Laura? The idea was shelved.

    3. slashgirl*

      The now retired tech guy at my smaller school is named (changed for privacy) Terry Smith. One day I was talking to a teacher at my larger school and she said she was getting a new student teacher….named Terry Smith. I gaped at her like a goldfish, I’d never been quite so floored when receiving new info–I said, “Terry Smith?” and was thinking Terry hadn’t said he was going back to school for teaching (being an IT guy was his second career after the Armed Forces)…and honestly didn’t think it would be something he would chose to do.

      The teacher replied, “Oh, yeah, she used to be a Teaching Assistant.” I was like, oh, okay, it’s a WOMAN…and explained to the teacher and we had a good laugh. Tech Terry thought it was funny when I told him, too.

      The student teacher became a teacher in our board and for a short time was known as “Teacher Terry”. I was talking to her once and she and Tech Terry both lived in the same phone exchange. She’d get phone calls for him, but said she couldn’t find him the phone book to let folks know the right number. I let her know that he was in there under his first name as Terrance was his middle name….

  42. WiscoKate*

    I am currently job searching. I’ve applied for a lot of position but am not getting ANYTHING back. (probably 250+ applications in the last 9 months). I’ve had one interview and made it to the final round, but wasn’t selected. I am following all the job advice and while I don’t tailor my resume for everything, I do for the positions I am most interested in and my general resume has specific measurables and I’m mostly sticking to similar type positions.

    I’m currently in Higher Ed – academic affairs but have worked in student affairs, banking, and government. I’m wondering if I seem like too much of a job pivoter? Or possible my masters in Higher Ed is making corporate employers less interested? I am only applying for fully remote jobs, so I’m hoping it’s just competitive but as someone who has always been a really strong candidate and employee, it’s really discouraging.

    Does it seem likely that hiring managers would be rejecting me for 1. having too many industries? (Nothing shorter than 1.5 years) 2. Could my masters in educational leadership be an issue?

    1. calvin blick*

      I think a lot of it is just finding the right hiring manager. I was in a position where I was trying to make the jump from Tea Cup Handle Supplier to Tea Cup Maker, and a ton of managers just wanted someone with direct tea cup making experience instead of just doing part of the work. Then I found the manager who was fine with that experience, and finally got the new job.

    2. ferrina*

      For me, I’m looking for the story that the resume tells. If the transitions tell a clear progression- for example, being a cyber security specialist at a financial institute, then cyber security for a hospital, then a software engineer at a tech company that specializes in hospitals- then I see how their career has progressed and get a sense of what they might be looking for in their next move. If I’m not seeing the story, then I wonder if this person really knows what they’re looking for.

      It also depends on why these are on your resume. How does your banking/government work make your candidacy stronger? Are there skills that you’re brining over? Or is it irrelevant? With what you describe, I’d be worrying that employers are having a hard time sorting out what skills and accomplishments you’d be bringing. Have someone who has never seen your resume look at it for 15 seconds (about how long a hiring manager might spend at a first glance) and see if they can pick out the key skills you are trying to highlight.

      Caveat: I’ve never worked in Higher Ed, and I know the rules can be different there

    3. Pivotttt!*

      Hi! I just left higher ed three months ago after 10 years of directing a student-support service and nearly 17 teaching. I’m now in digital marketing..talk about a pivot!

      Like you, I was worried that my obvious commitment to higher ed was an issue, so I used the cover letter to my full advantage to explain why I was pivoting and how exactly my skills prepared me for the position. I also gutted my resume from anything too specific to higher Ed and focused more on skills.

      You can do it!

    4. RagingADHD*

      With those numbers, I suspect there is something on there (or not on there when wanted) that’s getting your resume kicked out before a human sees it.

      Have you tried using an ATS scanner to see how well your keywords match the descriptions?

      Jobscan is one, and ResumeWorded is another. I’m sure you’ll find more if you search for them.

    5. PollyQ*

      If your master’s isn’t related to the job you’re applying for, you could try leaving it off your resume and see if that helps.

  43. Little Owl*

    For the past year, I was a team lead with one team member under me. This structure was not formal, since in the org chart we were equal and reported to the same manager. But this is how our department works, and our manager said so in recent performance review. My team member was moved into another department after reorganization last month.

    My questions:
    1. Can I ask her to give reference? The company has had several layoffs in the past year, so I’m looking to jump ship. We had a good working relationship, and she’s the person most capable to speak about my work aside from my manager. And can I ask her to be discreet?

    2. What’s the best way to explain the informal structure in my resume? If someone reaches out to HR, HR will tell them I have no direct report. I’d prefer my manager not to know about my plan to leave, obviously.

    1. ferrina*

      1. Yes, if you trust her to be discreet. Being a team lead is different than being a manager in that way. You should also offer to be a reference for her if she needs it.

      2. “Supervised junior staff and provided training in seal taming and otter grooming.”

  44. Rogelio*

    I’m likely going to get a job offer in the next week (and checking in with another place who will likely be giving one too). But I’m at the point where I’m just not sure if I’ll like the job. The company’s growing a lot, there’s a team I’d be a part of, so that’s all attractive, as is the collaborative nature of the fully remote organization. But it’s “just” a tech firm and the mission means nothing to me.

    But it’s so hard to know if it’ll feel like a good fit. I quit my last job because it was a pretty unfriendly workplace and I still feel a little shell shocked from that since it’s only been about 3 months. I’m thinking I should take it if it seems at all okay, but I just don’t know. I set the goal of finding a job I’d want to stay in, but the thought of turning down an offer to keep looking is just so hard to wrap my head around.

    1. ferrina*

      How did you vibe with the manager and the team? Are you excited about the responsibilities? Does the day-to-day feel good?

      For me, I can be ambivalent about the mission and still love a job. It’s the day-to-day that really determines the quality of life (well, and compensation). If you’re feeling good about the team, great! But is the team is giving you pause, then I’d ask myself what I’d do if it’s not a great fit. Is it worth getting out of your current place and staying here for a year of mediocrity? Or would that year be absolute hell? Will you be up for job searching in another year, or would you rather do it more now and find a place you’d stay for several years? (I find job searching exhausting, so that’s one I consider). How are your finances?
      These are the things I’d consider

      1. Rogelio*

        Thanks for this. I think the tricky part is that I didn’t get the best feel for the team. Everyone is new since the company is rapidly expanding (even the senior leaders who’d be over me joined a month ago) and I just don’t entirely know what I’m getting into. It feels like it might be a little more volatile than I want, and I think that’s what’s giving me pause. Coming off of a bad job, that idea of being stuck in a job I hate, and not wanting to leave it for a year since I left this last one after less than a year, has me a little skittish. I think I’m leaning towards passing on this one and I should go with my gut feeling.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Is it honest work that does something useful or desirable enough for people to pay for? Are the people congenial, and the conditions good? Do they pay well?

      Personally, I think “mission” and “passion” at work are for nonprofits, and if those things are extremely important to you, that’s where you should be looking. Businesses exist to make money by providing goods and services.

      I have a whole rant on this that I won’t get fully into, but it’s my belief that the current systemic problems with work and wages are inextricably linked with, and enabled by, the promulgation of the idea that your job can or should be a matter of mission and passion.

      That idea induces people to tolerate low pay and terrible conditions, because they are persuaded it is in service to a higher cause. It rarely is.

      Better to spend the money you make at your for-profit job on your personal mission and passion.

  45. Are online certifications/programs worth it?*

    I’m looking to switch jobs within the next year, currently Senior Manager level in healthcare compliance. I’d love to go into tech related compliance or financial compliance, and see there are some programs online where I could learn the ins and outs.

    Would those be worth it to do? I see a lot of our director level compliance folks coming from different fields, so perhaps it’s not so much the knowledge of a specific industry but your compliance expertise. I’d be looking at senior manager or higher type roles, so not starting in a lower position.

  46. Sheik Yurbooti*

    How many direct reports are too many? I’m a manager of project managers for a large company. We’re growing, which is great, but I have to manage 19 people, and along with other work and meetings and administrative things, my days are crazy. I don’t feel like I can make a connection with my team, no time for much guidance or anything more than surface-level conversations, there’s too much going on, we have to focus on the work and the daily issues. My boss won’t/can’t hire someone else to take the employee load off and I hate not being able to focus on my team’s career growth and development. Plus we continue to hire so there’s no real end in sight for number of people on my team. Any advice? Should I stay and just accept it? Or do I need to find a similar role with a smaller team at another company?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      So he can hire more people but not another person to split your load?

      I don’t know that you need a smaller company so much as you need one that delegates better. A company the same size or even bigger that had more managers and more reasonable expectations of them would be a good change, too. I don’t know why you wouldn’t at least look around.

    2. 867-5309*

      Do they are all report to you directly or are some indirects (e.g., you manage managers)?

      If not, can you make the case for some hierarchy?

    3. No fun name yet*

      I was always taught to follow this rule-of-thumb:
      Managers spend 10% of their time supervising each direct report–and more (upfront) for new ones. If you have 19 direct reports, that means 190% of your time is spent supervising staff(!!!). Of course, if you have only 7 direct reports, and the remaining 12 report up to those 7, then those 7 take 70% of your time–leaving you only 30% free for your own work.

      Is there some way you can internally restructure your team so that folks report up to 2-3 people already ON your team? Then the boss would only have to pony up for a new title/some raises, rather than a whole new FTE person (and their assorted benefits).

      1. Sheik Yurbooti*

        All good points. Yes they all report to me directly. My boss does not delegate well at all. We have talked about delegation in the past but it doesn’t go anywhere as my company is big on pushing more “responsibility” to people but not changing job title or giving more money, so you can see how this would go. All for the sake of having a “flat” structure (why that’s important more so than the practical need I don’t know). I would really like to hire a team lead to take the burden off and maybe I can push that more. It’s worth asking again and making the case that it’s necessary. Burnout is real!

        1. linger*

          You can still do the same thing, and delegate some of your management tasks, even without an official hierarchy: develop staff skills in project management / communication by making some staff team leads for particular projects. (Start with more senior or experienced members of your team, and assign them more recent hires to train — but then rotate those duties as much as you can to preserve the official “flat” structure.)

        2. linger*

          To clarify a little: rather than managing 20 or so individuals, you should be managing 4-5 teams of 4-5 individuals. You’d start by training and mentoring the initial team leads; once those have some experience of project management, they work with you on training up another member of their team to take on their role; then the second incumbents do it with supervision; then the second incumbents work with you to train a third incumbent; and so on. As new hires are added, you should have a pool of existing staff (the earlier team leads) who can train them and manage their work. The overall aim is to make collegiality and mutual training part of the job for all members of your team.

    4. OyHiOh*

      If you close your eyes and visualize a ball in your hand, how many balls can you add before you loose track? For most people, this number is somewhere between 0 and 6 balls. Old school management training used to recommend that you not have more direct reports than the number of balls you can easily visual.

      Nineteen is unimaginably unreasonable by almost any measure! You need a layer of supervision between your lowest level staff and you.

    5. RosyGlasses*

      10 is the limit – and even that is beyond if you are responsible for other items. 6-8 is usually the sweet spot for direct reports. Right now I have 9, plus I am ultimately responsible for a division of 35 EEs, plus HR responsibilities – and it’s ALOT. If you have more than the 8-10 spread you really are going to be dropping some balls (not on purpose, just lack of time/resources) in developing your team, focusing on the big picture, plus the regular fires that usually crop up.

  47. Justin*

    I wanted to share an exception. We’ve all heard how the “like a family” thing is usually toxic. My current job says that sort of stuff in their branding and company-wide emails (but no one says that out loud). And we’re actually treated well and given grace and good salaries.

    I wonder if the issue is that many use “family” to avoid actually treating people well. For us it seems to just be “We’re a good workplace,” but the many horror stories do ensure that I know why it’s such a red flag.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know. I’ve been in those “we’re a family” workplaces where they don’t actively abuse me, but it’s still squicky. They can expect you to be “loyal” if underpaid (even though they’re drop you in a heartbeat) and to do all sorts of weird team bonding activities that sometimes stretch the bounds of professionalism.

      Glad you’re having a good experience, but I’d still view it a red flag, even if there’s no obvious abuse.

      1. Justin*

        But we’re NOT underpaid. At all. And we’re undergoing a salary assessment to see if anyone needs to have even higher salaries. Unlike every other nonprofit I’ve worked for, we’re not treated as though we have an extra millon dollars and unlimited time in reserve.

        I think it’s just cliche language that I wish we’d find a new version of.

        1. Esprit de l'escalier*

          Yeah, it’s a workplace cliche that tells you very little about the company except that they’re not allergic to using cliches.

    2. snowyowl*

      I have heard people use it not knowing the connotations and thinking that it’s legitimately a positive. Honestly it sounds like your company needs to consider rebranding.

      I have been told at my current workplace that we’re like a family multiple times, and have used the phrase when asked by interviewees to make sure they’re aware. I am, in those cases, using it as a red flag to let them know.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah. What’s best than family? I mean, “we pay well and don’t exploit our workers*” is probably better.

        *ethical consumption capitalism, I know

    3. ThatGirl*

      My company, when I was hired, was owned by a family (same one for 100 years, big company, you’ve inevitably seen our products). They were very big on the “Company Family”. Kinda touchy-feely, big on recognizing anniversaries and retirements and babies and weddings and being friendly and warm in general. It didn’t bother me but it did get a little eye-rolly at points.

      Now, we’ve been merged with a public company. They are very *not* touchy-feely. Very data driven. Not that the people are rude or mean, but it’s a whole different vibe.

      I dunno, I feel like there has to be a happy medium!

    4. OyHiOh*

      I think that, much like genetically related families, “like a family” work places can be a spectrum from highly functional and supportive through to the most horrid boundary stompers and abusers. The phrase should definitely key job searchers to look for flags and clues to level of function/dysfunction that may also be present.

      My current org is non profit. Occasionally busts out the like a family phrase. They use it to mean 1) we understand there will be times when you need to prioritize your genetic family, 2) we’re going to keep an eye on market rates for your roles and adjust salaries as need to keep you competitive, 3) same for benefits, 4) sometimes you’ll have to work weird hours, but we want you to be able to flex your hours otherwise, 5) dear gods, please don’t take your laptop home and work until late into the evening every single damn night! (sometimes we have to, it’s the nature of the type of work we do, but late WFH evenings are pretty rare)

    5. RagingADHD*

      I agree with you. The phrase is often used to justify exploitive practices.

      And people who expect family to be supportive, respectful, fair, and empowering don’t realize how often it is misused.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      The “family” think always makes me laugh. You don’t want me to act like I do around my family. My family is loud and talks over each other and sometimes we are critical and abrasive of each other. I am much better behaved and have better boundaries at work!

  48. jef*

    We hired a new person not quite 2 months ago that reports directly to me. She’s been super enthusiastic and is visibly excited to learn our quite-intricate business (the job takes about a year to get solidly competent at). It’s clear that in the past she’s had some real challenges with bad supervisors based on things she says (and doesn’t say).
    I’m looking for advice on how/whether to address some specific things she says. She over-apologizes when I let her know about an error (things like “I so sorry about that” and apologizing on teams as well as again verbally whenever we next speak). I expect errors at this point. It’s a finicky complicated business and she’s learning. She also thanks me profusely (and multiple times) for explaining the why of an error, or why we do a process a certain way. To me that’s just good training! How can you learn if you don’t have context? Anyway, any thoughts on how to curb some of this? I am fine with politeness, but this seems like way too much remorse or gratitude for routine corrections/training/interactions.

    1. Justin*

      Not sure if remote/hybrid whatever but maybe take her to coffee one morning and reassure her about these things.

      If you’d like to be less over the top about it, just be direct and say, hey, we’re all learning, you don’t have to apologize.

      1. jef*

        I’ve tried! I have, since day 1, reiterated that the learning curve is long and steep, and I don’t expect perfection at any point. I know I’ve told her several times that I will always explain the why of things because it’s important she understand it, not just do what I say. And that she should always be able to ask why because we work in the financial arena and if I can’t tell her why, that’s super shady.
        Maybe I will try to have a sit-down, hey, it’s okay conversation. Thanks for the suggestion!

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, this is all good stuff but it’s too indirect. I mean, it’s clear about your intentions and expectation, but it’s apparently too indirect with regard to her reactions.

          You can sit down with her and say something like “I’ve noticed a pattern where you apologize profusely and also thank me excessively for things like X, Y, Z. I would like you to try to stop apologizing so much. It will be better for your collaborations at work in the long run if you’re able to learn and grow from mistakes without getting overly emotional. I’m happy with your progress and not upset when people make normal errors.”

          It will probably be awkward for her, but that’s ok! You could also say that you understand it takes time to adjust to a work environment and change habits, but you’ll appreciate her trying.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      It’s just going to take time and consistently telling and showing her that it’s okay to make mistakes when you’re new and she doesn’t have to over apologise. She’ll unlearn this behaviour eventually but it takes a lot of self awareness and a new mindset.

    3. Flowers*

      Wow! I literally just had a similar conversation with my boss. There was a small thing I forgot to do, and I think I misunderstood an assignment; he was chill about it. To the small detail, he said he doesn’t expect me to master it at this point and it’s OK. To the other thing, he said he’ll look at it; maybe it is what he needed.

      In this case, tone is very very important.

      At my last job, I was doing work from my first day and it was very fast paced. And yes, thanks to past jobs + my own upbringing + bad relationships, I was made to feel like a failure for not knowing a small/basic thing.

      1. jef*

        I think my tone is okay, because I’m not pretending it’s okay, it really is fine. And expected. It would frankly freak me out if she wasn’t still making a ton of mistakes this early into the training. I usually aim for polite, matter of fact, and kind.
        Is there something else that would help you in these situations? More praise when things go right? More frequent progress report type things (Not like a performance review, more of a, ‘hey look at what you’ve mastered and here’s what’s next’)?

    4. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      In my experience, it takes people who have been in bad work environments a really long time to accept that they aren’t in one now – long enough that it can be really frustrating to the managers. I try to focus on anything that actually impacts the work or how the person is perceived. If the work isn’t being affected, and if people aren’t perceiving her badly, then I think the best solution is to accept this as an annoyance but trust that her brain needs time to learn that errors aren’t going to be a problem here the way they were in her previous workplace.

  49. BlushingCrow*

    I am wondering if anyone has any good suggestions for work management software? Not something to replace things like MS Project (those aspects are fine, but not the main focus), but something that could be used for one part of the company to request work from another? It would also allow a team to view and manage their work statment. Some sort of task management thing. I feel like there must be something good off the shelf out there, but I am having a hard time finding it.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think generally ticketing software would work well for this. Think of “help desk” software, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be for tech support. Could be any request.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      It’s low tech, but have you explored Trello? It’s got a lot of integration with Google docs so you could theoretically have someone submit a request and then track its progress all the way through the end. And it’s super user friendly.

      1. BlushingCrow*

        Thanks for that feedback, we can’t work with google docs, but I’d guess if it can interface with that it can interface with other programs.

    3. Pivotttt!*

      I love Air table, and the automated functions may be what you’re looking for. People can approve docs, etc. and everything is tracked.

        1. Generalist*

          Seconding the Airtable recommendation. It’s got more of a learning curve than some of the others named, and you will really need at least one person who is quite good at database logic to set up the process at the start. But my org has found it really excellent, and I know the purpose you’re describing is what the Airtable developers really had/have in mind as they created it and add features. You can find videos showing use cases that may help you assess whether it would be good for your situation.

      1. ferrina*

        Ditto- also worked with Trello, Asana and Monday (and Basecamp), and Monday was also my fav.

        It makes a difference if you work under hard deadlines or not. Monday and Basecamp are great for deadlines (Asana is okay, but depending on your needs, it may need some custom set up). If you don’t have hard deadines, Trello is great. Product Dev and software engineering teams I’ve worked with loved it, because they could move different tickets from one team to another for different work elements.

      2. mreasy*

        I have used them all and liked Monday the least – Trello is my favorite. You can add checklists, require approvals, etc. But I know folks who swear by Monday.

  50. Anonymous Koala*

    How do you make sure all the work you’re doing “counts”? I’ve noticed that a lot of the projects I create or the work I volunteer for tends to be in the “nice to have” category instead of the “super meaningful impact” category. How do I get out of that mindset and drive more meaningful innovation at work?

    1. ferrina*

      Well…that depends on whether your passions line up with the business strategies and goals. Just because something is important and meaningful doesn’t mean that the business is going to do anything with it.

      Start by looking at a Venn diagram where your circles are 1. your business/departments goals, strategies and priorities and 2. what you think is important. Focus on where that overlap is. Learn what the pain points are for the stakeholders, and make adoption as easy as possible. Treat your projects as products- make sure that what you are building addresses market need, is attractive to adopt, and has low barrier to entry. And if that sounds hard, it’s because it often is. You need to be able to understand a lot of different stakeholders, their desires (both reasonable and unreasonable), be a logistics ninja, and be a great salesperson/advocate to get the right people to buy-in (oh, and know the power structure well enough to ID the right people you need buy-in from).

      But you don’t need to have a big project to make a big impact. By being your best at work, you model a certain standard. Do amazing work, treat people with respect and be genuinely thoughtful about how your work impacts others. Those traits alone will make you stand out and inspire others*. People will see that people like you exist, and that makes a difference. It makes others hold themselves to new standards, have the courage to try new things, and be less likely to tolerate bad behavior. Think about Alison’s scripts- how often do we read that and say “Wow, I didn’t know I could say that! Now I know what to do if I run into this situation.” You can be that role model in what you do.

      *Obviously not all people will be inspired. Some will try to undermine you, some will attack anyone with success, some will be oblivious and some will just not click with you (but may click with someone you inspire, so, residual effects, I guess). But some will, and that will ripple outward. Trust me.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        Thank you! The specific strategies you’ve offered here, like the thought venn diagram and the list of traits to keep trying to cultivate, are super helpful for my specific goals. You’re also right that I shouldn’t underplay having a positive attitude and doing excellent work.

    2. Anna Badger*

      goals! if your goals are set up right, you can weigh up every potential thing you might do by asking “which of these will bring me closest to meeting one of my goals?”

      you can also have private goals as well as your official ones, it’s just important to know what they are and to make sure that everything that needs to be done to meet them is in place before you move on to the nice to haves.

    3. Hillary*

      Picture the most mediocre, bro-iest dude you work with or went to school with. Would he do it? Good luck!

  51. Seal*

    This week I withdrew an application for a job I thought I was a good fit for because they required that I list my current supervisor as a reference. When I pushed back on this, they said that while I could ask them not to contact my supervisor during the interview process, a reference from them was required before a final offer was made. This was a dealbreaker for me.

    I’m frantically job hunting to get out of a very toxic work environment that led to my current supervisor getting hired. In the few short months they’ve been here, I’ve been threatened, manipulated, lied to and about, shunned, excluded, and otherwise bullied on a daily basis. There is no way on earth I’d ever list this person as a reference, especially when I otherwise have very good references who know my work and are more than happy to say good things about me.

    Why do organizations do this?!

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m so sorry that happened. It doesn’t stand up to any logical sniff test, I can’t imagine requiring this.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I’ve actually had it come back to bite me a few times when we didn’t talk to a person’s current supervisor. We still don’t require it, but I can see why some org’s would choose to.

      I’m sorry to hear about your current role and I hope you find something new soon!

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Did you check references at all or were there specific issues the supervisor would have uncovered? I just wouldn’t give a current employer this kind of input over someone’s career, personally. It can make it hard for people to leave bad situations, or it can backfire and get someone fired if you don’t end up hiring them.

        1. Decidedly Me*

          We still checked references, but in all the cases, the current role was the most applicable to the role with us, so it would have been the most valuable one. Giving an example below.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I know you probably don’t want to give too many details or become too identifiable IRL here, but do you have any examples of things you could have learned from a person’s current supervisor that would be a dealbreaker that you couldn’t also have learned from a former supervisor or a coworker? Why would having a current supervisor as a reference have helped?

        1. Decidedly Me*

          In a recent example, their current role was the most applicable to the role they were applying to with us, so a former supervisor couldn’t have spoken to it. During the interview process, they mentioned having issues with their current supervisor and they didn’t want to provide them as a reference. Supervisor gave feedback of X, Y, Z, but Applicant said there was a personal bias going on that resulted in the feedback (this was why they were looking to leave that environment). We hired them and the feedback they said wasn’t true from Supervisor were the issues we saw with them at our company. Despite lots of coaching and support, it ended up not working out.

          This may sound like they were badmouthing Supervisor in the interview, but that’s not how the info came about.

    3. Sherm*

      You don’t have to answer, but I wonder whether your field is academia. There’s a weird attitude of ownership of an employee, like you’re a child and your boss is your parent, so the new “parent” will want to talk to the old one before custody is transferred.

      Regardless, this reflects the fact that employers have had the power — or used to. They can do what they want (talk to the applicant’s supervisor in your case, or ghost applicants in many cases), and still they will get candidates wanting to work for them. Hopefully indeed the times are changing. Good for you for not moving forward the job. It must have been tough, but I certainly wouldn’t want to work for people who want me to jeopardize my current employment for their sake.

      1. Seal*

        I’m an academic librarian, so twice the potential for toxicity in my chosen field! Don’t get me wrong; there are lots of good things about academic librarianship. But when things go sideways, they REALLY go sideways.

        During my current job hunt, I’ve noticed that far more institutions are going out of their way to ask for permission to contact references. The few that have contacted off list references have told me in advance they’re planning to do so; only one did not tell me who they were planning to contact. For that matter, although most of my staff is also job hunting, no one has ever contacted me as an off list reference, either (I do agree to serve as a listed reference for anyone who asks). Knowing how toxic librarianship can be, I’ve never been concerned by candidates who don’t list their current supervisors and have pushed back on search committees I’ve served on when others insisted we need to hear from a current supervisor. I hope this means that things are changing.

    4. Mimmy*

      I always thought it was normal to contact a current supervisor at the references stage, or at least right before a job offer.

      That said, it shouldn’t be required up front when providing reference lists. I’ve seen applications that asks you to list the current supervisor but also asks if it’s okay to contact.

      1. Seal*

        I’ve seen applications like that as well. The problem in this case was that they required a reference from a current supervisor before they would hire you. Imagine getting an offer only to have it pulled at the last minute because the supervisor you were trying to get away from slandered you!

        The other concern (which I didn’t ask) is what if a candidate is unemployed when they apply and can’t get in touch with their last supervisor for whatever reason. Does that automatically disqualify them? There are other perfectly legitimate reasons for not being able to list a current supervisor; it shouldn’t be a dealbreaker for the hiring manager.

      2. WellRed*

        Why? So you can alert your manager you’re looking to leave and therefore put your job at risk if the offer doesn’t come through?

    5. Everything Bagel*

      I’m in the same awkward situation. Job hunting and my only available reference is my current manager. It’s just been him and me for many years. His predecessor has long since retired and died. My current manager doesn’t know I’m looking and I worry that he would hold back on a good reference to try to keep me around a bit longer.

      I have copies of all of my annual reviews, hoping that will serve as a form of reference.

      1. Angry socialist*

        I hate this for you, just like I hate this for me. I tend to work one-on-one with managers for many years, and then they retire and/or die. There’s nobody left to give me references except my current manager. While I trust her to be honest, I’m not sure she’d be actively helping. My job is literally only working with one person, except for a few part-time low-level people that I supervise for a year before they leave for a less temporary job.

        I’m so screwed.

        I hate reference checks anyway, because as a manager I’ve gotten glowing references for new hires who turn out to be terrible. (My boss decided the questions we’d ask during the reference check and I couldn’t change them.)

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      That’s really so bizarre. I can’t imagine EVER doing that.
      Good luck getting out of your current situation ASAP!

  52. Flowers*

    I’m really struggling to figure out how much of this is my own issue- bad work ethic, horrible time mgmt skills, lack of focus, or just a tough situation all around? I’m 6 weeks in at this job and I’ve had several “emergencies”/issues that I needed to take care of during work hours. Twice my boss has mentioned it casually and despite a really great working relationship so far, it’s giving me major anxiety. 

    Some background:

    We have (or had rather) summer hours where we WFH one day and have Fridays off. 10-hours a day in the office. After today, it’s back to 5-days a week in office unless you need a special exception. and extra hours during the busy season. 

    I have a 2 year old. She’s in daycare full time (4-5 days a week). Her father/my husband gets her ready and drops her off and picks her up and watches her until I come home. She also has some delays. We have done weekly speech therapy for a few months now, and she now has feeding therapy and weekly occupational therapy starting soon. My elderly mother also lives with us and is dependent on us for many things. 

    My daughter has been sick with a cold this week; my husband has been watching her while I went to work. The other day she got worse and he asked me to come home early. My boss was out of the office but working, so I emailed him that I’d have to leave early but I’d work from home and be accessible. When I had my daily check-in with him, he said that I’m not in office enough, that of course I have to go take care of my child, that’s not optional etc. He had a friendly tone but was hemming and hawing it. He was quick to assure me that he loves the work I do and yesterday he had given me feedback that I’m doing great. 

    Other than that conversation I thought things were going well. We check in daily in person and chat about our families. He knows about my daughter and her issues/needs; he has grandchildren and is familiar with those things. I’ve always felt good about our conversations – he doesn’t overstep or pry and hes generally positive. But there is this issue of – optics of me not being here often enough? 

    1. In my second week, I had to go to my Dr’s office to pick up an emergency supply of medication while I waited for insurance issues to be sorted. I had already been out of it for a week and I didn’t know it would take that long – it was my responsibility to call in for my medicine before I ran out. I took an extra hour for personal non/emergency things. 

    2. My daughter wasn’t feeling well and didn’t sleep the entire night; I needed to sleep a few hours and I went into work late. 

    3. Another day, my daughter had an appointment and that time off was preplanned. I was supposed to go in later but I ended up not going at all due to a (mental) health emergency. I took PTO for that. 

    4. Generally, I put in a 8-9 hour day instead of 10 hours; it’s difficult for me to put in a full 10 hours and hard on my husband as well.  

    In all situations, I notified who I was supposed to notify, and made up my hours. I know it’s gotten super long so TY if you’ve made it this far. If possible I’d like to avoid getting into the personal aspect of it (i.e, my family issues) and just focus on the work part. 

    1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      Of the options you laid out at the top, I would choose tough situation all around – but I’m not sure “tough” is a strong enough word! It sounds untenable. It sounds like you need a job with shorter and much more flexible hours. I realize you probably already know this, so maybe this isn’t helpful. But I would like to say emphatically that I do not think this is poor work ethic or poor time management. This is the poor childcare, poor healthcare, and poor value for life outside of work that we have in America (I am assuming).

    2. ferrina*

      I really hate saying this, but I recommend you low-key job search. Because I think you have very, very reasonable expectations and needs, and I don’t think this job can/will accommodate them. I think you can find a more reasonable job somewhere else and that you deserve lower stress than this.

      Here’s what’s worrying me:
      -Your boss said that he understands these things happen, but also that you’re supposed to be at work? Um, that’s inherently contradictory. Just because he has grandkids doesn’t mean that he understands or is reasonable- I’ve worked for bosses that would tell me how important family is and in the next breath berate me for not being available 24/7. This is the tone your boss is striking for me.

      -You can only work 8 or 9 hours per day, and your job wants you to work 10 hours. To be clear, 8-9 hours is really, really reasonable at most jobs. But if this job wants 10 hours and was clear about that in the interview process, that might just be what this job needs. And that makes it not the right fit for you. You deserve a job that fits with what you need, especially when your needs are so reasonable.

      -You clearly need a bit of flexibility in your job. It’s not much- just basic flex time. I regularly run short errands in the middle of my work day, and I regularly work weird evening hours. It’s a great part of my office’s culture that I can do that, and plenty of places offer that now. Unfortunately, it sounds like your office may not be that type of place. If they aren’t going to offer that type of flexibility, that’s within their rights, but it may make them the wrong place for you.

      Maybe I’m misreading this and it’s not like this at all. It’s possible that it’s all okay. But I’d listen to your instincts here. If your instincts are telling you that you should be concerned, I’d start gently putting a back-up plan in place. Talk to your husband, tell him why you want to job search (including the elements you’d be looking for, like a 40-hour week most weeks and flexibility to run the occasional errand- I’m betting he’d love for you to get those things, too), and try to apply to just a couple jobs a week. I have some tips on how to make job searching easier on yourself when you have no free hours- let me know if that would help.
      Good luck!

      1. Flowers*

        10 hours was for the summer…fit 40 hours into 4 days so that we can take Fridays off. In theory it’s nice and before I had a kid I wouldn’t have had any problem with it. I did use a few Fridays to make up some hours but not a full work day.

        as of next week it goes back to 5 days/40 hours. So hopefully my attendance will be more consistent.

        Aside from this I really do like working here so I’m not thrilled with looking again. But i guess it wouldn’t hurt to fix up my resume.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          The hours thing is the one that stood out most to me. If they hired you for 40 hours a week, and you’ve only been working 32-36 hours a week for the six weeks you’ve currently been on the job, that’s actually a pretty major thing. It also sounds like you’ve been having unpredictable absences (leaving early, coming late, etc.) at the rate of at least once a week, with some of those absences being for things like sleeping in. So from your employer’s perspective, I’d be worried about how much I could rely on you to consistently show up and work the hours you’ve been hired for.

          If your attendance becomes perfect now that you’ve back to 8 hour days, and stays that way, you can likely correct that impression. If the pattern continues, you probably need to keep looking for a job that’s more suited to your need – no 4/10 work in the summer, and more hours.

      2. Flowers*

        And the issue with looking for a new job is –

        I actually thrive being in an office and I really don’t like working from home. As an emergency day or a few times a week in a hybrid schedule, I wouldn’t mind it. But definitely not 100% remote.

        The thing is that it was really slow in the beginning. There were lots of days I had nothing to do despite asking everyone I could. 6 weeks in things are picking up so I have enough work now but the first few weeks were really slow.

        In a perfect situation, I would be working 100% in office for a few months until I got the hang of everything and then switch to hybrid. Which I’m not sure is too feasible…..

    3. AnonyMouse*

      I do not think this is lack of work ethic at all, but perhaps the job is not a great fit for you. I am also a mom, and I truly empathize with your situation. I think there are a few factors at play here. The first is that you are new to this job and still at the “first impressions” stage. This means any absence is noticed more because your boss is trying to get a feel for how you work. If one of my team members who’s been with us for years did the things that you did, I feel like it would ring differently than someone who’s been there for a month (not that it should – but I think it might be making a difference).

      The other big factor is that you aren’t able to do the schedule, at least in the summer with the 10-hour days. Am I understanding correctly that now you will work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day? If you stay at the job, I wonder if you could just decline summer hours next year. I also wonder if things will get easier for you going back to the 5-day a week schedule (I hope so!).

      The last thing is something I hate to say, and it’s not right, but it is based on my experience. I have tried to be more conscious about how much I’m talking about my kids and pull back a bit with my boss and coworkers. I try to make sure every time we chit chat I’m not mentioning my kids. If I’m going to be late, I will say something like “Running half an hour late, see you at 8:30” instead of “(Child) had a rough night, so I slept a little late and won’t be in until 8:30.” As long as I make up the time, my boss does not ask for justifications, and I think mentioning my kids has never really helped – and in fact could have the opposite effect, due to the sad state of the culture around working parents. Also, I hope my non-parent coworkers get the same flexibility, so my kid needing me is not a “better” reason than any other. That said, this works because my workplace is accepting of flexibility, and I think yours just might not be flexible enough for you – it’s so hard to be a working parent and especially mother.

      1. Flowers*

        Yes correct-5 days a week/8 hours a day. I believe they do allow us to decline it. From what I’ve seen and heard, he general idea seems to be that yea you can WFH in case of an emergency.

        As for the kid talk, I hear what you’re saying. That was so my fear too! Esp because I suspect I lost one job because of being pregnant. This is my first job after having a kid (technically 3rd-the first two were very short lived so I don’t count those). A lot of the ppl I talk to are parents with older children so they seem to enjoy the kid talk and talk about their kids as well. I don’t (or wouldn’t rather) talk about her with anyone who didn’t bring it up. And When I began looking to work, I made it clear to recruiters and interviewers (including this one) that I have a young child and flexibility, understanding etc is important for me.

        My first day they had a womens luncheon (which I was invited to, so that was a plus from me!) and making this company working parent friendly was the core topic of discussion. They said they welcome ideas and suggestions on making this a more supportive environment. They just created the organization a few weeks ago. So I do think their intentions are genuine. As far as non parents I don’t really know anyone well enough to gauge.

    4. EMP*

      I saw something similar happen in my office. In that case, and I think it applies to you too, is as a new hire, you don’t have a backlog of goodwill built up to weight against your sudden (if justified) absences.

      Whether or not it’s justified, work wants you in the office more often and more consistently. If you can’t find some temporary extra family coverage so you don’t need to drop everything for emergencies so often, then I agree with the commenters who are suggesting looking for a more flexible job. It sucks! I don’t think it’s your fault – these things happen, it sounds like you’re doing good work – but it does sound like as things stand with your family situation, you aren’t living up to what your office expects of you in terms of butts in seats time.

    5. Katiekins*

      It can be really disruptive to work 10 hour days, so I’m hoping that the recent switch back to 8 hr. days (I’m assuming) will help. When is the busy season? I wonder if you want to see how you do (and how your boss responds to you) with the new, more regular week before you make any decisions.

      But I will reiterate what’s already been said, that it’s not a poor work ethic.

      1. Flowers*

        Two deadlines coming up then January-April. We got an email from the top saying that there’s no scheduled WFH days but if special accommodations are needed to see them.

        I was planning to be diligent about my attendance and work for the next few months and then bring up having a regular remote day.

        1. Forgotten username*

          Why do you want a regular remote day when you have already said above that you thrive in an office and don’t like working from home? If I were your employer, which doesn’t typically approve remote work even for the best employee, I would be very hesitant to grant a permanent work from home day for someone who started out with so many difficulties in showing up for work and following the agreed-upon schedule, even if they had 3 perfect months of attendance after that. If the workplace was one that allowed everyone to regularly work from home and had flexible schedules where they didn’t care when you worked as long as all your work was done, maybe that would work out. But I’m wondering if you need to spend a little more time thinking about what you need from a workplace if you are thinking a remote day a week is going to make things better – from what you’ve written in this thread about how you work, seems like a remote day would be more difficult for you to complete your work well.

    6. Anonymous Koala*

      I echo the advice about low key job searching. Not all jobs are for everyone, and it sounds like you need more flexibility than you have right now. But it also sounds like you’ve had a lot of “one offs”. Instead of continuing that, could you try and get your boss to accommodate more flexibility in your schedule as a routine? He may not allow it, but it could be worth a shot, especially if you are going to job search anyway. A flex schedule with would improve the optics of this a lot more than a series of emergencies. Some things I would suggest asking for:
      WFH more than 1 day a week
      Work 5 x 8-hour days or 6 x 6.67-days instead of 4 x 10-hour days
      Committing to 4-5 “core hours” a day when you are always available, but allowing for some flexibility at the beginning/ending of the day when you might take an hour or so to respond to emails because you’ve got kid/life things
      You may be able to get some of this by applying for intermittent FMLA due to dependent care needs.

    7. WellRed*

      In some jobs this all would be fine and I see no reason they can’t be flexible. However, this is a lot in six weeks. We’d understand stuff comes up but I am wondering if the Medication pickup and the personal errands couldn’t have been done on a Friday ( they very well may not have). I’m sympathetic. I’d hate 10 hour days too.

      1. Flowers*

        I know I feel terrible. Oh yeah another day I was late because I spilled something on my shirt and was in decision paralysis between buying something new or just going in like that. I spent more time agonizing than actually doing anything.
        And That was my first idea but The dr office was closed on Friday. :-/ And I had already been a week + without the medication (insulin). I didn’t specify the medication, but I did feel really irresponsible that I waited so long to call in a refill.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I mean this as gently as I can, but if you are serious that decision paralysis over a spill on your shirt caused you to miss a significant amount of work, and you missed a week’s worth of *insulin,* this is not a matter of work ethic or time management. Insulin keeps people alive and out of the hospital. It isn’t optional.

          You need to speak to a health provider about your overall level of functioning. You urgently need a better care plan. This is not an “Oh I feel bad about it” situation.

          You are in trouble. This is bad trouble.

          I hope you can get appropriate care quickly.

          1. Flowers*

            That’s true….I think maybe my ADHD meds aren’t working anymore. I speak to my Dr in a few weeks so I’ll think of some more examples and bring it up and take it from there.

    8. Velociraptor Attack*

      I think if your boss is flat out saying you need to be in the office more, you need to listen to that and be in the office more, whether it’s reasonable or not. I don’t disagree that some of these things are unavoidable but as others have mentioned, it’s really hard when you’re new and have minimal goodwill.

      I know you’ve mentioned before that you had been late a few times shortly after you started as well so I’d really think about if your boss is looking at just these recent things or if he’s got an eye out and looking to see if he’s spotting a pattern.

      I say this kindly but also if you’re supposed to put in 10 hours, that probably means you’re there for 11 hours, so you get your 10 hours on the clock and then 1 hour for a lunch. So if you’re putting in 8-9 hours a day, then you’re in the office 2 or 3 hours short of what the expectation is EACH day and that’s a lot.

      I agree with others that I think those 4 10s are just not conducive to your lifestyle, do you see things getting better or do you see missing more time because you don’t have a day off each week to try to get those things done during? I think that’s kind of a deciding factor about if you look to move on.

      1. Flowers*

        Oh definitely to the goodwill. Like someone said above, a longtime employee doing something is very different than me the newbie doing it. And I totally get that! These were definitely things I considered.

        Re the 10 hours – I did ask about lunch early on. From what I saw around me, and what was explained to me, ppl usually take 15-20 minutes and eat at their desk. So that’s included in th 10 hours. I imagine if it was a traditional hour long lunch, that wouldn’t count towards the daily hours.

    9. Hanna S.*

      That sounds really tough. I’m sorry you’re dealing with so much. It does seem like an awful lot of emergency/unplanned situations for such a short period, especially when you had Fridays off in that time. As others have said, it seems like this job might just not be a good fit for you. The ten hour days when you have a kid with additional needs, other caring responsibilities, and (it sounds like) your own health needs, might just be too much for you to handle. It’s possible that the shift back to more standard hours now that summer hours are over might help you find a better balance and give you a break. If you still struggle, you would probably be better off looking for something with more flexible hours, possible WFH, and taking that added pressure off your day.

      1. Flowers*

        Yes in theory I could have saved some things to Friday. But my daughters appts were so difficult to get that we took the first ones available. And the nights she doesn’t sleep….

        (I’m not trying to blame my kid but it’s a given I think thst there’s so much unpredictability – that’s been the hardest thing for me to get used to being someone who craves routine).

        And then? I actually hate WFH myself. I love that it’s an option and support it 10000% for those who want it. I’ve WFH over the last 2 years and i hated it. I found I thrive being in person. So I wouldn’t want something 100% remote. I love working in the office but the office doesn’t love me back :-/

    10. Pocket Mouse*

      A few things to consider: I agree with Anonymous Koala that this sounds like a lot of one-offs; do you think this frequency is representative of what pops up in your life given your situation, or was it a bit more than usual? Do you anticipate potentially having *more* frequent one-offs in the future as caretaking needs shift? Is there more your husband can pitch in with (e.g. staying up with your daughter, picking up meds) especially if he has more flexibility or goodwill banked at his workplace? Do you think your manager does actually understand, in that he picked up his fair share of one-offs when he was parenting young children, and do you trust you can have an honest, open conversation about what this role requires and the flexibility it allows?

      I think this would all be helpful in sussing out how likely it is you can stay in and succeed in this role. However, you’re already picking up on a conflict between your responsibilities at home and responsibilities at work (real or perceived) and, especially if things aren’t likely to ease up for you on the home responsibility side, it may be worth keeping an eye out for jobs that have more guaranteed flexibility and thus won’t make you feel anxious like you are now.

      1. Flowers*

        Honestly idk. This was/is my first FTE after having a child. I need to really sit down and list everything and figure it out. Because half of it is REAL stuff (therapiy sessions, dr appts etc) and the other half is just me….being flighty or unfocused (the meds etc).

        On the home front, My husband is already maxed out on his capacity. He also works albeit from home but he works at night so i couldn’t have him do that. He also does way more house chores. The few hours she’s in daycare he’s either catching up on work, doing something for my mom or anything else that needs to be done.

        With my manager I DO get the sense he understands. He’s never said or asked “why can’t your husband do it?” Which is a plus in my book?

        I do like this job otherwise. And I do prefer working in an office. But I’m just Finding it so hard to balance. Now that the hours are changing to something more manageable I plan to be more focused on my attendance (he has said he is happy with my performance so far).

      1. legalchef*

        I mean, the thing here is that you don’t really *have* goodwill, just by virtue of being new and not having had an opportunity to prove yourself. You are still in the period of your job where you should be on your “best behavior,” so to speak, and from how you are describing this… you aren’t. Forgetting about the emergencies etc, you just haven’t even been working the hours you were supposed to, and you admit that. Whether or not the job should allow for more flexibility or you should get more flexibility, you haven’t built up the standing to push for either of those things.

        And honestly, and I mean this constructively, this isn’t your first job since having the baby, it’s your third. And I know you said above that you don’t count the other two (and maybe you shouldn’t, for resume purposes), but they existed, and *do* count when looking at workplace issues that seem to be recurring, since if I recall these problems you described above are not all that dissimilar from the issues you’ve talked about in the past.

        1. Flowers*

          Yes, true, goodwill was the wrong word to use here. Maybe…..expectations? idk

          and yes I do agree with you on all of those points about being on the best behavior. For the hours I did have a talk with a higher up and they said if for any reason we can’t do 10 hours in a day then you can always make up the time on Fridays. Which I did a few times, so that’s why I thought it was flexible?

          1. Any Name At All*

            I don’t think they meant you could miss work and make up for it so frequently. An emergency is a once in a blue moon thing, not an everyday thing.

            I agree with those that said that this seems to be a pattern, not just with this job. For your job’s sake, you’ve got to nip this in the bud.

    11. Flowers*

      Honestly, as much as I love this job, if I do get fired 6-8 months from now, I’d collect unemployment for a bit and just relax.

      1. RosyGlasses*

        I think you *may* be being too hard on yourself. Reading through the comments, it sounds like this is your first full time job after the kiddo, and adjustments at any level are hard (heck, even every 6 months kids seems to change tactics and need different things!). So firstly, I would cut yourself some slack.

        If I were in your shoes, I would work diligently at being consistent at work when I can be, being communicative, positive — essentially doing what I can to show up when I can and be honest (and as guilt free as possible) when I can’t. Kids are an unknown quantity — sometimes you will just be hit with ALL the things — and it is futile at times to try and plan and control for all the variables.

        Maybe see how the 8 hr days go since you mentioned that schedules are flipping back, and if you find that life flows better around that, when the 4/10 schedule is about to gear up, talk to your manager about sticking with 5/8 or go into it with the understanding that you’ll need more flexibility around your hours during that time period but you will be working just as hard as you normally do.

        Sending you good vibes – being a mama is hard work!

        1. Flowers*

          If I were in your shoes, I would work diligently at being consistent at work when I can be, being communicative, positive — essentially doing what I can to show up when I can and be honest (and as guilt free as possible) when I can’t.

          This is what I’ve been doing – at least if my attendance isn’t up to par, there’s other things I can do – good quality work, ask questions, communicate, have a good attitude and disposition, face time etc.

          1. RosyGlasses*

            I think that’s great and I don’t know that as a manager I would expect more than that. I’ve learned in managing people that everyone is going to have limits to what they can or are willing to do, and as long as the job is getting done and they are helpful and collaborative with their teammates, the rest is gravy.

    12. Pop*

      Going back to work after having a kiddo is a huge adjustment, regardless of when it happens. I am also a mom of a toddler, and I work full time! Other people have great advice too, but I think you would benefit from spending some time prioritizing things and working with your spouse on who can do what.
      – You needed to sleep bc you were up all night. Can you figure out a better system for night wakings, so you and your spouse both get enough sleep to function?
      – Your spouse needed you to come home early. Why? What if you literally could not have come home early (let’s say you were on a boat, or a two hour flight away)?
      – does your spouse have more flexible hours? Can he pick up your medicine?
      – What other support systems can you build up? Get a regular babysitter for a few hours a week so you can take care of some life admin things?

      You have had a lot of things come up in the last six weeks. And as a parent to a little, my guess is that you will continue to have things come up at this rate. But it seems that your work doesn’t have this level of flexibility on an ongoing basis. Good luck! This is a big transition for you and your family and it’s okay to not have it all figured out on day one.

      1. Pop*

        I didn’t see your note about not talking about family issues until after I posted. My apologies if this got too close – you can feel free to ignore.

  53. Avery*

    Not a question, just an update, as I know I’ve posted about my situation before and the commentariat may be interested.
    I’ve mentioned before various problems with my current job, how my boss alternates between absentee and micromanager, doesn’t give me credit for what I do, etc.
    Well, good news: I’ve found another job! Fully remote, in my field, a bit of a pay bump, and most importantly, my boss-to-be seems reasonable! Admittedly that’s not a guarantee that he WILL be reasonable, but it’s a good sign so far!

  54. What's her face*

    I’m new to my company, yet experienced in my role. The other person at my level is new to the role, new to the company. She’s been making mistakes, yet not taking feedback or training offerings and throwing blame at others. She also likes playing the social game.
    My fear is that she will fail at this position and that I will end up having to pick up her workload. How do I stay detached and not get roped in her errors? Our projects are separate, bit we do share the same customers and I don’t want to be guilty by association.

    1. Observer*

      I would assume that if she fails at this position she would be replaced. Why would you expect otherwise?

      Document your work so your bosses know what’s up. If your projects really are separate and you communicate directly with clients, there is no reason why they would look badly at you because of her mistakes – as long as you don’t defend or bad mouth her.

      If someone does complain to you about her mistakes, tell them who to talk to and also that you will pass their complaint along. Something like “I don’t deal with the teapots, but I’ll pass your issue along to BigBoss. But it would be a really good idea for you to talk to her directly. Here is how you can reach her.”

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      You’re not giving many details here so I will give a vague answer. Find a balance between not helping and babying.

      Don’t let it be a self-fulfilling prophecy where you think she will fail so you don’t offer support or tips that you would have given if you thought she would have succeeded.

      But don’t dive in and do her work or respond to every email you both on or try to rescue her the second she starts floundering either, or else she won’t learn.

  55. Newbie #2*

    I just started a new job, and I’m feeling like I made a mistake. Let’s say I have a background in coffee pot design. This new job is basically ensuring teapot integrity, in a large organization whose goal is keeping the public from getting burned by tea. So more than a little different than hat I’m used to, but I should have translatable skills. I’m having second thoughts about leaving coffee pot design – my old job was burning me out so I ran as far away as I could, but I’m not sure that it was the design work itself rather than the office environment I was in.

    At the new place, I’m having a hard time getting over the near-complete lack of organized training in how to do my job. My boss set up a meeting for me with a team member to try to get her to answer my new-person questions, and her main advice to get onboard was to search for resources using keywords on the main organization’s website, and wait for the twice-a-year synchronous trainings on the software. I think it’s apparent that the organization as a whole is a little lacking in the onboarding department, but this is also the kind of place people will stay their whole careers. What signs should I be looking for of total dysfunction? Has anyone who’s made a similar career move been happy with it? Regretted it? Want to share your story?

    1. Tired of Working*

      A recruiter discussed with me a job at a stock brokerage firm. I had no such experience. He told me that such experience wasn’t required, that they would train me if I were hired. During interviews, the branch manager, the office manager, my potential supervisor, and a potential co-worker all said that experience working at a stock brokerage firm was not required, as I would be trained. There was no training provided. The supervisor kept complaining about me to the branch manager and the office manager, and they kept criticizing me and telling me that I was in danger of being fired. (I eventually found out that they had originally wanted someone with experience, but the salary they offered wasn’t high enough for someone with experience, although it was high enough for me, so they decided to say that experience wasn’t required.)

      I had started looking for another job after I was there for one month (although they did not know it), and I found a new job after I had been there for four months and promptly gave two weeks notice. To my surprise, they were upset, because since I had worked there for more than three months, they owed the recruiter a full commission. Too bad. I told them that I had told my new company how terribly they treated me, and I said that my new company wanted to know if I could start there immediately, instead of two weeks later. For some reason, the stock brokerage firm wanted me to stay there another two weeks, so I did.

      It was a horrible, horrible experience, considering how excited I had been to get a job there.

  56. calvin blick*

    So, my boss invited me to play golf today, which I declined because I a) suck at golf, b) don’t really have time to learn given my other hobbies and family obligations, and c) don’t have any equipment anyway. I am currently a mid-level employee who will being applying to director level positions at some point in the medium term. How much is not playing golf going to hurt me? It sounds like golf is a big thing at this company, and I know it is at many other places as well.

    On the one hand, I would like to move up career-wise; on the other, golf has never seemed the least bit fun or interesting to me. (A summer in college working at a country club also confirmed all the negative stereotypes of country club people). Anyone have any ideas about this?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How much declining golf will hurt is very dependent on company culture. How many of the director-level people at your organization play golf? How often do they play? And what’s your sense of the correlation between golf-playing and promotions (or in-group/out-group dynamics)?

      I will say that I have played a few games of golf with coworkers and mostly had a good time. Importantly, there was a wide range of skill levels so it didn’t matter that I have no skill at golf, and I did not get the sense that there was a strong correlation between people who played golf and any clique dynamics in the office. So golf is something I feel OK about playing once or twice a year for any sort of marginal “networking” benefits.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This depends a lot on your industry, your company, and your boss. It sounds from your comments like this may be a big deal where you are. Do you have a trusted coworker you can talk to about this?

      I think the whole “golf as business bonding” thing is just weird and inefficient, but I’m not emperor of the world and can’t do anything about it…

    3. RagingADHD*

      I think your experience working at the country club has given you some unnecessary baggage about “country club people.”

      Do you have similar feelings about swimming, tennis, and eating in restaurants? Those are also central features of a country club. And all of them, including golf, are also enjoyed by “regular people” in other places. Public golf courses are very popular.

      Golf is a pretty good pastime for a business outing, as sports go, because you have plenty of time to chat, you keep all your clothes on, and you don’t get out of breath or sweaty (unless it’s awfully hot).

      Your boss invited you to hang out. That’s a good sign. If moving up in your industry is a major goal, taking a few lessons or picking up some secondhand clubs seems like a worthwhile investment. You don’t need to be highly skilled, just be familiar with how to play in general.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      If golf is a Thing in your industry (which it sounds like it is), it might be worth investing in a few lessons to make it tolerable if the tradeoff is more visibility with the bosses and better promotion opportunities. You can always rent clubs and/or suggest the driving range rather than a full game – shorter time commitment, no consequences for a bad shot.

      That said, I’d find this objectionable because it’s such a throwback to old-school ways of promoting “guys like us” and highly exclusionary in many ways. If it hurts your career to not participate in a non-work-relevant activity, that aspect of the industry needs to disappear. And the best way for that to happen is for people to stop playing along.

    5. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      I worked at a not-for-profit cultural institution. One of the divisions hired a new director from out of state, and once he got his feet under him, he started asking who played golf – probably extra tempting for him since we were across from a large city park with a golf course. He asked, and asked, and finally found someone who golfed – an older security guard who was a retired police officer. It was one of those places where people just weren’t into that kind of thing (nor could most of them afford it). It was humorously eye-opening, but the general group self-assessment was that it was under “Things nerds don’t do.”

  57. Am I Being Screwed?*

    I recently got a promotion which is essentially a title change reflecting the higher level of work I am producing (but my job is the same now as it was before). This was exciting, but after I had already accepted the promotion I was told that I would be switched to exempt, with a 10% raise over my base salary. This seemed good on paper, but I have always been required to work a certain amount of overtime every week and am still required to work those extra hours now, but without the extra pay. We have several busy periods every year where daily overtime and occasional weekends are required which didn’t bother me back when I was getting time-and-a-half for those hours, but now I get nothing extra.

    I did the math and my paychecks during normal periods are only very slightly higher than before, and during our busy times they’re a couple hundred dollars less. When I come in on a weekend, I am essentially losing money because I’m not getting paid any extra and I have a long commute and have to eat the gas cost.

    If I had known in advance that I would be switched to exempt I would have declined the promotion (which I didn’t even ask for in the first place), but the ship has sailed. A coworker who went through the same thing about six months before me lobbied really hard to get a bigger increase or some kind of additional benefits (extra vacation, etc.) to make up for the lack of overtime pay, but was shut down at every turn. Apparently they were told that they would get a bigger bonus at the end of the year but that didn’t actually happen.

    I’m already job searching but could use some external validation that this is ridiculous and I’m not just being petty!

    1. ecnaseener*

      You’re not being petty. A promotion and a raise shouldn’t result in a net loss or anything close to it. I would be pissed off in your shoes too.

    2. Blarg*

      It’s also potentially illegal. The functions of your job didn’t change. Being exempt requires you meet certain criteria, and if you didn’t meet them before your “promotion” — which didn’t involve additional responsibility — it’s hard to see how you do now. Look up the rules on the fed dept of labor site and then talk to HR. And document all your hours — if you’re improperly classified, they’ll owe you back wages, incl OT, and DOL could assess fines.

      1. Observer*

        That’s not really an issue. It’s perfectly legal to treat someone as hourly even if they could be exempt. And it can make a lot of sense from an organizational perspective to treat someone as non-exempt until we formalize that condition X (generally ability to operate with minimal supervision) exists.

        But still a ridiculous situation.

      2. PollyQ*

        Not necessarily. It’s a two-part test: both job duties and salary are taken into account, so the 10% base salary raise may have made the difference in this case, even if the work didn’t change.

        I do think it’s worth checking the definition of exempt vs. non-exempt job roles though, because it’s entirely possible that the role shouldn’t be exempt at any salary.

    3. CatCat*

      You’re not being petty. It’s ridiculous that a promotion would come with a pay cut. Seems like a feature and not a bug given how your co-worker was treated. Makes sense that you are job searching in this situation!

      1. Observer*

        Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about the “feature not a bug”.

        I’m glad you’re job searching.

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Pretty sure this drove my dad to look for a new job at one point in his career. On paper, it looked good: promotion to an exempt supervisory role with a raise that would bring his salary higher than it would be if he worked 40 hours a week as a non-exempt hourly employee.

      Except during the busy season he always worked more than 40 hours a week. And he’d be supervising people in his previous role, so he’d still be working the same amount of hours, but now without the overtime pay.

      He turned down the promotion, and I think it was not long after that when he found a new job.

    5. PollyQ*

      If it weren’t for your co-worker’s experience, I’d recommend that you make the case to your manager that you’re actually losing money due to the promotion, but given what you already know about your employer, job-hunting seems like a really good choice.

    6. Ann Ominous*

      That is ridiculous indeed and no one would ever say otherwise unless they were trying to play mind games with you.

      If it were me (I have a good relationship with my boss) I would just say,
      “Hey boss, I am sure you’ll be surprised as I was to discover that this promotion is netting me $200 less a month. Can we discuss other options?” And then based on his response, transition to something like “I’d prefer to stay here but I was really counting on that money, that’s [almost my whole car payment][my family’s grocery bill][something else that puts it into context so your boss doesn’t just dismiss it]”

  58. Cady*

    What would you do in this situation?

    I’m a web developer. At my employer, we use a ticketing system to handle any requests for website updates. One day, I received a request that didn’t make sense to me and I followed up with the person who submitted it (let’s call her Miranda). I explained why the request sounded odd, I provided screenshots of what the website looks like now (because her request would create repeated text on the site and wouldn’t look right), and I asked Miranda if she was sure about this. She said it was correct and other companies do the same thing she was requesting. I still had my reservations, but I completed the request and submitted it for review.

    The person reviewing my work was my grand boss, who we’ll call George. George sent Miranda a screenshot of the completed work and asked her if this was correct because it looked weird. Miranda then writes back “My apologies, I thought Cady was questioning the request.” Miranda then writes that I changed the wrong thing. The “wrong change” is actually something that I never touched. George writes back that the website always looked that way and instructs Miranda to look at the screenshot he sent (it sounds like Miranda was looking at my screenshot that didn’t include the changes). All of the above events took place through online messaging and none of this was in person or over video.

    My boss, who we’ll call Bob, was on vacation. When he came back, I decided to show him this correspondence because I felt Miranda had been unprofessional with the whole “questioning the request” comment. I wanted make him aware of what happened because I’ve been having problems with Miranda, which I did tell Bob about (and addressed with Miranda), and I felt it was escalating. I also told Bob that I didn’t know if George said anything to Miranda offline. Bob agreed that Miranda was unprofessional and he’d talk to George. Bob said this wasn’t anything to escalate to HR and I agreed with that. I wasn’t out to get Miranda written up. I just wanted someone to tell her that her words weren’t ok.

    A few days later, I speak to George over video call. His talk doesn’t make me feel better. He says Miranda is a good employee, this is our busy time, and she’s just making sure deadlines are met etc. I understand we’re all stressed and trying to make WFH work, but that’s no excuse for her to make unprofessional comments to me when I was doing my job. My employer has strict review guidelines for the website. If I had not asked my follow up question before completing the request, then the people reviewing my work would.

    For additional background, I’ve been looking for a new job before this happened. The culture at my employer has definitely shifted and it’s becoming toxic. Miranda is part of that shifting and toxic culture. I feel Miranda treats me like dirt because me and the other web developers are slated to be laid off in a few months. I also feel she’s extra coarse with me because I’m a woman and I suspect she thinks she can get away with being rude to another woman; I don’t think she does this to the other developers who are all men.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Unless I missed something, the only things Miranda said that you took issue with was “My apologies, I thought Cady was questioning the request” and that you changed the wrong thing?

      I’m honestly not sure this is something she needs to be talked to about. A little brusque maybe, but clearly trying to phrase it in a polite way. In your situation I would let it go.

      1. Cady*

        It was not polite. If Miranda was polite, she would write “My apologies, I misunderstood.” She thought I was was stepping out of line with my follow up questions. I have no regrets about telling my boss I thought she was unprofessional.

    2. RagingADHD*

      From here, you seem to be overly fixated on the exact wording you think Miranda should have used, and escalating a conflict because she used slightly different wording that means exactly the same thing.

      Nothing in this story reflects Miranda being toxic or treating you like dirt. It just sounds like Miranda made a dumb mistake and backtracked in a nonsensical way. There may be other things that made this the last straw, but I’m not seeing it in this particular instance.

      Your boss and grand boss have both told you this is not an issue you should pursue, and they don’t believe Miranda was as far out of line as you think. You need to let this go before your boss and grand boss start to see you as the problem.

  59. They Don’t Make Sunday*

    Those of you who work in alumni relations or fundraising for a school, camp, or a program for kids: what do you use to create and send your e-newsletters?

    This is for my child’s school (where I have a volunteer role). We send out two newsletters
    a year that have several articles and are photo heavy. These are the requirements we have:

    • We need our newsletter to be mobile responsive (a PDF looks great on a computer but is annoying to read on phone).

    • We want the newsletter to have internal links so people can jump between articles.

    • We use a lot of photos of the kids, so we only want our current and alumni families to view it. Having readers create an account or enter a password to view it on a website will be too onerous and cost us most of our audience.

    • The newsletter is too long and too large photo-wise to have the entire thing in an email. Even if our email service (we use Constant Contact) supported a large message size, Gmail would just truncate the message on the recipient end.

    • I looked at Substack, but emails I get via Substack tend to be text heavy, not so many photos. Same email truncation problem as above if we tried to use lots of big photos.

    I’m looking at Adobe Express or maybe Canva. Is that the way to go? If we get a template set up there, is it intuitive enough for a non-designer to manage changing the photos and text?

    Any other options to consider? Many thanks!

    1. Pivotttt!*

      Canva is super user friendly, ime. I use it extensively for a volunteer role I have.

      Does Constant Contact have the option to view the email in the browser like MailChimp? I’ve used MC for two orgs I’ve worked with and liked that viewing it like a website was an option. Might help with your length issues.

      1. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        Yeah, I think Constant Contact has that. I wouldn’t count on people clicking it, though.

        I played around with Canva and realized there’s no text wrapping function! If you want a picture in a column of text, you need to make a new text box underneath the picture. We have long articles. I’m realizing there just may not be a good solution.

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I haven’t started using it yet, but my nonprofit has decided to use Bloomerang, which has mailing list and newsletter functionality. Sorry I can’t be more helpful!

  60. blue*

    OK here’s my idea. Everyone go apply for a job in your field that you don’t really want. Nail the interview (which will be easy since you don’t actually want the job.) When they ask you what salary you want/need/expect, give them 25-30% higher than what they want to offer, or what you make, or what you expect the market rate is. Make them figure it out. Or at least have to consider it. Then turn the job down (unless by this pt you want the job, then congrats!) This is how we help raise wages. Thoughts?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      There will always be someone who is not in the position to make demands who will take the job. You have limited leverage as an unknown quantity – when you get an offer yeah, you have a little room, but they’ve just decided you’re the best person to take a bet on. They’ll take a lower bet on a less sure thing.

      Absolutely negotiate. Unionize. Leave jobs that don’t treat you well as soon as you can. But the majority of people are two or three paychecks away from homelessness and can’t play this game.

    2. Observer*

      This is not how you raise wages. This is how you waste people’s time and put job seekers into an even worse position.

      This kind of thing would make hiring processes more lengthy and convoluted than they already are, which hurts job seekers.

      It makes it less transparent and give employers reason to think that bad faith is more common than it is, which hurts job seekers.

      It creates a false picture of the market, which hurts job seekers.

      And that’s best case, and assuming that you consistently actually DO ace the interview and get an offer.

    3. RagingADHD*

      How about we spend that time on jobs we actually want, advancing our careers, and leveraging our influence to get higher wages for ourselves and the people we manage?

    4. just a thought*

      The employer would just move to their second choice asking for the market rate. So, I don’t think this will change anything.
      Most people job searching do not have just one candidate and expect everything to workout with the single candidate.

  61. To Direct or Not, that is the question*

    I’m ready for a change and I was contacted by a recruiter for a Director role at a different company. This would be a big step up with a big pay increase and different role. Right now, I’m a technical contributor but I’m running small teams (managing tasks, schedules, and budgets), meeting with stakeholders and owner, and coordinating with other senior technical people on the technical content. I would be going from Big Corporation to Small Company. (The new company is smaller than my current group.)

    I know the answer is personal. But for anyone who has gone from a technical career to director/manager, what was your experience? Anything that was surprising or that you didn’t think of? I want to make sure I’m considering all of the changes and challenges and would love to hear from others. Do you like it? Regret it? What do you wish someone had told you?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I did something similar recently, and to be honest it didn’t work out. A lot of that was due to toxic and hostile behavior from the team I was set to manage, but I also really struggled with the transition from Big Institution to Small Organization. In my first week one of my team members mentioned we should probably get another key to the workroom made and I said “ok, who do we contact for that?” They looked at me like I had two heads and said “you just go to the hardware store and do it”. I would think about the different level of institutional resources you have now and how you would handle an environment where you don’t have them.

      I also learned that coordinating teams is different than managing a team, especially if there’s any risk of you being perceived as an “outsider”. I had my team literally tell me to my face they didn’t respect my professional experience because they didn’t agree with how things are done at Big Institution. To be clear, I wasn’t making any kind of changes to make small organization more like Big Institution – they just had the mindset that I would never understand what they do and would never be able to lead the team (again, this was a highly toxic team).

      It was also a big change to go from just focusing on my own work and doing what I needed to get done that day, to realizing I needed to know and advise on what everyone else was doing too. The scope of the job was so much bigger than I’d thought, and I really struggled with having no peers and no management other than the head of the organization to help guide me.

  62. k*

    I adore the AAM community. Thank you all so much for your wisdom.

    I’m in a workplace I generally enjoy and appreciate and part of a team that works well together. My wages are more than fair, benefits are very good, my work is regularly and pleasantly challenging and varied – and I don’t want to do my job any longer. I feel as though I’ll never get up to speed in experience and education. I feel like more of a liability than an asset (and by this, you may suss out what line of work I’m in).

    Looking for another job in the work I enjoy most is what I need to do, and I’m scared and intimidated. Yet, I believe I have something good to offer the right company, the right team.

    Sigh. Solidarity to those who also struggle.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I wrote a similar response to Now With Extra Macaroni upthread, but job-searching is just looking! Think of sending off a job application as “I am interested to learn a little bit more about this position. Maybe it will be a good step in my career, maybe it won’t be.” That should not be scary or intimidating.

      Also, you’re in a really good spot to job search. You don’t have a pressing need to get out of a toxic workplace or to earn more money as soon as possible. You can take your time finding the postings that look like they will be a good fit and tailoring your resume and cover letter for each one. You can take a break from your job search without guilt if something flares up in another area of your life. You can do a thorough job evaluating the job/company as much as they are evaluating you.

      Good luck!

  63. Grieving while working*

    Hi all – does anyone have some suggestions for returning to work while dealing with grief? I’d love to hear people’s experiences about what worked well and how to be kind to yourself during mourning periods.

    I had a very unexpected and tragic death occur in the immediate family a week or two ago and just returned yesterday to my fairly new job. I feel like work is the farthest thing from my mind at the moment and I am just so scatterbrained that I don’t even know how to handle things or make simple decisions. I’m also so on edge that like even a slight sigh or gasp on a call has me assuming the worst. I don’t think additional time off is really possible at the moment so I’m wondering how people go through tough times while working?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m so sorry. I hope you’re getting the support you need outside of work.

      The best thing I’ve observed is to let people know what you’re dealing with, at least generally. Humans are basically good and make room for one another when something bad happens. If you’re comfortable doing so, explain to at least you’re supervisor how deeply this is impacting you. If you can think of supports you need ask for those, but even just asking for grace and patience is reasonable.

      Good luck.

    2. jef*

      I’m so sorry for your loss! I know what you’re going through, unfortunately. For me, I let coworkers know that things are tough. And then I tried really hard to throw myself into the more clinical parts of my job (numbers) as much as I could. And LISTS! So many lists of what needed to get done so I didn’t have to always think of it. Letting myself be not quite as good at my job for a bit or needing to think things through even if they were routine.
      I also didn’t so much fight the waves of grief when they came, but I would only give them a couple minutes before trying to pull myself together. Keep tissues with you at all times if you’re a cryer.
      The biggest help though was making sure I had outlets for my grief after work. I could be a little leaky during the day, as long as I could allow myself a good long cry after hours. I needed the time to really feel my feelings, just not at work.
      If your employer has an EAP program, also recommend getting a little extra help.
      I hope you find comfort and solace.

    3. Four of ten*

      I’m sorry for your loss. I, as have many, also had a sudden death of someone very close. I found it difficult to concentrate and to accomplish things. Be sure to be kind to yourself during this time as you stumble through the tangled field of grief.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      When a similar thing happened to me, I found that I needed to schedule time off at intervals after the initial shock. It helped to know that I was going to have Tuesday off.

      I made sure that my boss and coworkers know that I was distracted, and focused my to-do list on either the brainless tasks, or the ones that would be fully engaging. And gave myself some grace to get back to the rest later.

      And from what you’re saying, you’re still in the thick of it. Take the time. You’re not being productive and being on edge is just making it worse and stretching out the trauma.

      But — since you’re new and you’ve already taken lots of time off — I can see how you don’t want to push your luck. Tell your manager what’s going on. Ask if there’s something low stakes that you can work on for the next week or so.

    5. OtterB*

      People in the past have spoken well of the Captain Awkward post on How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed.

      Obviously grief is not the same as depression, but I think there’s enough overlap that it might help.

  64. Echo*

    I supervise the work of “Edith”, whose direct manager is “Libby”. Libby is short for Elizabeth, but Libby has never gone by Elizabeth, always signs her emails “Libby”, etc. For some reason, Edith always calls her Elizabeth, even though no one else does. This can get a little confusing, as it often takes me a moment to remember Edith is indeed talking about Libby.

    I keep wondering if I should say something, since my supervisory role does include giving Edith feedback. But since Libby is Edith’s actual manager, this is none of my business and is between Edith and Libby, right?

    1. Melanie Cavill*

      Is it possible that they have a pre-existing relationship? Like, idk, Libby was Edith’s childhood babysitter or something? I agree that’s very weird, but I’d probably check with Libby first before jumping right into providing Edith feedback.

      1. Echo*

        Yeah, bringing it up with Libby first might be a good idea! I definitely don’t want it to seem like I’m criticizing Edith, more just “here’s something weird I noticed”.

    2. Echo*

      Also, if I had to speculate about what’s going on here, Edith is relatively new to the workforce and I suspect she is uncomfortable using a ‘cutesy’ nickname for her boss. (The real name has even more of this sort of cute pet name vibe than “Libby”.)

    3. ecnaseener*

      It sounds like you’ve missed the boat on “huh? Oh, you mean Libby? She doesn’t go by Elizabeth” which you could’ve said the first couple times.

    4. Everything Bagel*

      Not sure why you can’t just casually ask, “Oh, you mean Libby. How come you call her Elizabeth? Then just see what the answer is? Not sure there’s necessarily anything you should do beyond that, but it is a curious thing.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Let me get this straight. You are Edith’s supervisor, and Libby is Edith’s manager, right?

      Yes, it is perfectly appropriate the next time that Edith does it, to say, “Her name is Libby.” Libby could address it herself if she cared to do so, but she might not have bothered.

      I think taking it up with Libby or making it a “feedback” issue is making too much of a production out of something that need not be. Just correct her when she messes up.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      Does Libby care?

      Some people have this weird thing about “the name your mother gave you” even if your mother always calls you the name you prefer. I had a friend whose given name was something like “Jenny” and her AUNT insisted on calling her “Jennifer” which literally wasn’t her name.

  65. WheresMyPen*

    Should I bring up the topic of a raise in my next performance review even though it might be a bit early? I have been an editor at my company for 2.5 years but 6 months ago changed to a different type of editor under a new manager (who I already knew) due to a structural change. I’ve had small, automatic company-wide raises but nothing performance related. I have a performance review coming up with new manager (first since my probation) and even though I think it’s a bit early to ask for a raise since I’ve only been in this new role for 6 months, I’ve been at this level for 2.5 years and believe I deserve one thanks to my work over that time. I think getting a raise next year is more realistic but should I plant the seed now with her? Eg telling her it’s something I’m aiming for, asking her what the process is, explaining that for career reasons I’m going to want to either be compensated better or look at moving on? Or should I not mention it until next year? I’ve never had to negotiate a raise before so am not sure of the best timeline for bringing it up. Also, our financial end of year is April, so should I get it in before that instead of waiting for my work-versary in May?

    1. PollyQ*

      2.5 years is plenty long enough to be getting a raise, and a performance review is a perfectly logical time to discuss it.

  66. WheresMyPen*

    Any recommendations for a simple, visual to do list/task manager? I use a bullet journal method of keeping track of my weekly tasks on a paper pad, but it’s not the best way of tracking things I don’t need to do this week but at some point, like longer term projects or things other people are doing that I’m waiting for. I’ve looked at sites like Monday.com but I think that’s more aimed at teams than individuals. I don’t need to assign tasks to others or keep track of entire projects, just my tasks within it. I’m very visual and like to be able to place tasks on a calendar to see the dates visually, but don’t love google calendar. Any ideas?

      1. CatCat*

        Seconding this. I have a white board set up as a kanban board above my desk with sticky notes I move around depending on their status. It’s great for keeping track of things over time.

    1. Blarg*

      I use the stickies app that windows has. It’s like having a post it note on your desktop (or more than one). And you can close them and they save. Etc. It doesn’t have a lot of features but it’s easy for a to do list. and I also use it for the dream ideas for a side project

    2. CharlieBrown*

      I use an Excel sheet. I give everything an index number, and then sort by that number to keep important things at the top and back-burner things at the bottom. I update the index number as needed. This allows me to also categorize things, like 100 level items are awaiting a response, 200 level items need to be corrected by someone else, 400 level items are awaiting my review.

      And it’s Excel, so I use a lot of conditional formatting to color things, which helps get my attention.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve had success just keeping a google docs open (my org used Google suite so it was open already) with a running list of things to keep track of. I had sections for “to do this week” “upcoming” “questions for meeting with X” “agenda items for monthly X meeting” and “figure out” (things I needed to learn when I was new in the role). Things could stay on there until I dealt with them (even if it was weeks/months) and I could easily move things from one category to another, or bold items that were extra important.

      Not exactly high tech but it worked for me!

    4. Alex*

      I’ve been using ToDoist. Not sure if it would enough visual information for you, but worth checking out.

      1. Dodo*

        I have similar feelings about RemembertheMilk–it’s great for individual planning and can be integrated with various calendars, but isn’t visual at all on its own.

    5. Dodo*

      Oh, Trello might fit the bill! It’s pretty visual (and I’m not, so I haven’t used it much)–I bet it would match what you’re looking for.

      1. WheresMyPen*

        Ooh yes, I use Trello to keep track of my fabric stash :D but it could work for tasks too, thanks!

  67. WhenToTell*

    Longtime reader, first time commenting! Would love people’s thoughts on my dilemma. I recently accepted a new position that will take me overseas next year. My spouse is trying to figure out when to tell their employer about said move because they are also trying to switch teams before then.

    Right now, spouse works for team A. However, they’d like to switch to to working for team B, and they recently worked out an agreement to do some work for team B part-time in the hopes that it will lead to a full time role. There’s a decent possibility that a full time position on team B will open up in Dec/Jan.

    Spouse is thinking they should wait to see if 1) the full time position actually opens and 2) if they get it before mentioning to the manager of team B that they’re actually going to be overseas next year. I agree with this in principle but am also worried that it may look like a bait-and-switch, plus I don’t know how much work it will entail on the company’s end to figure out visa issues and the like. Thoughts?

    Of note, spouse’s employer is a large multinational, they have an office in the location we will be moving to, and both team A and team B work remotely and don’t see that changing.

  68. A New Start*

    I’ve been working in higher education for the past decade plus in a role that basically is as a program manager. I have my hands in everything: admissions and recruitment, internships, academic planning and registration, accreditation, advisement. I have a related MA, but not a PhD.

    There have been so many changes lately and more are likely coming. My university is tightening the screws on their staff, trying to claw back any flexibility. After two years of having some, I’m bristling at the thought of losing it; we kept this place running during the beginning of the pandemic, and it seems we were completely unnoticed by the administration. They put out messages praising us, but I heard from my own bosses that in meetings they all complained about people “faking” their work from home. I never expected to be able to WFH 100%, but I don’t want to be treated like a liar or a child who needs to be supervised by the hall monitors not to misbehave.

    So, I’m contemplating a career change. I’m not 100% sold, because my salary and benefits are decent, but I also feel like I could use something new. I’ve been dealing with students for so long and it is certainly getting challenging. I would like to move into something that allows for independent work and commonly has hybrid or remote work options. I don’t mind working with people at all, but I would like my job not to fall into the “service” category; something more behind the scenes seems ideal. I would not really want to do a whole other degree, but I am open to more training. I’m fairly tech savvy, but not in an official way (understanding programming or the like).

    Has anyone made a transition out of higher ed and how did you do it? What did you step into? I’m not opposed to stay in higher education, but colleges tend to lack this flexibility. I’m thinking within the next 2-5 years I will be ready for a launch, so I can take the time to build skills if I need them.

    1. Pivotttt!*

      Hi! Your situation sounds very familiar – I just left higher ed three months ago after directing a student-support service for 10 years and teaching (concurrently) for 17. I’m now in digital marketing in a fully remote role, and a lot of your considerations – working independently, behind the scenes – were mine as well.

      You likely already have the skills you need to change industries, but I didn’t know where to start and did a ton of research on various roles to see what interested me and how my skillset could apply. Once I narrowed down the types of roles, revising my resume and cover letters was much easier, and boom. I had phone screens/interviews with two companies within a week, withdrew from one, and was hired by the other. Three months in, and I have no regrets.

      I’m happy to chat or answer questions if you have them! The toughest thing about leaving was the wait between when I resigned and through my first week in the new role. It’s defiy a transition, but for me, it’s been a great one. Best of luck!

      1. A New Start*

        Oh gosh, that is exactly where I am. I’m thinking to myself… what jobs exist for someone like me? I know people change industries, but higher ed feels so specific, it’s like how can you get out? I can’t even figure out what to search for because I just don’t feel like I know the jobs well enough to have a good search.

        I think you are right that I need to devote some time to researching my options, so I can have a more successful search.

        If you don’t mind me asking, did you find your pay was comparable? I don’t mind taking a small cut because I will be new at things, but I just have this concern that I will be back to the bottom of the pay ladder again if I try to change.

        1. Pivotttt!*

          That was the main reason I left..it was a 30% raise. I leveraged the “Jane of all trades” aspect of my experience, and it worked.

  69. Mellowdaze*

    I have been employed in the same position for 4+ years and unsuccessfully job-searching for the last 3 months.
    This week 3 people from my department have resigned and there was already such low morale at work due to management. Until I hand in my own notice, how do I get through such unhappy times?

    1. Trying to Change*

      Can you schedule an upcoming vacation? I treated myself to a really exciting one and then had all the joy of planning and anticipating it while I was waiting to get a new job, and it helped a lot. Plus I needed to use up leave in expectation of being gone soon anyway.

  70. Mimmy*

    One of the “short-answer” posts included behavioral interviews and several comments reflected something I’m struggling with, so I’m looking for some help today.

    I do not have a good memory for details when it comes to specific situations. For example, when I’m asked about a time I had a conflict with a coworker, I always give a specific story from a few years ago. I remember in general what happened, how I handled it later, and how the coworker responded. However, I don’t remember specific details, such as what the conflict was and what exactly was said in the subsequent text messages.

    In a nutshell, I may be able to think of examples I can give in an interview, but the memories of them are usually vague. In the threads the other day, a commenter noted that they think in “emotions, impressions, and screenshots”. This sounds very similar to how I think as well. I can visualize a snapshot of a conversation or perhaps my frustration with a given student. However, I can’t play the film. I would literally have to jot down every single conversation or situation if I’m going to remember anything meaningful. As an instructor, I teach a specific skill (usually 1:1), so I’ve started going through old notes just so that I can refresh my memory on unique strategies that I may’ve used or on specific challenging students.

    Another thing I’ve noticed is that when asked a given question, I have to think to myself, “has this really happened to me?” It’s possible but I’m just not able to come up with an example in the moment. I’ve been making note of questions that I’ve been asked in recent interviews with the goal of coming up with additional examples.

    Do these all sound like good strategies? Am I overthinking it? Is there anything else I could be doing?

    I will say that my recent interviewing has made me really start thinking about how I approach my job and how I handle different situations.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Having a few examples ready that would cover a variety of questions is a great strategy. Most people don’t have an extensive rolodex of examples ready off the top of their head, and it’s very common to blank in a stressful situation like an interview.

      Also, and maybe I’ll get some pushback on this, but if all you can think of is a hypothetical situation that sounds like something that realistically may have happened and you know how you personally would have handled that, I don’t think that’s unethical. That’s basically what people are asking for with those questions, and if in the moment that’s the best you can do that’s fine. The point is they want to know your professional skills and how you approach problems.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I feel you! I have a crap memory for experiences in general. I don’t even have the visual memory you describe. When I’m preparing for an interview I try to come up with specific examples, and yeah some of the details are guesses. No real way around it without avid journaling.

    3. WheresMyPen*

      Jotting down ideas is a great strategy, and doing prep before an interview is key anyway. I had a couple of experience based questions recently in an interview that had me stumped on whether I’d actually ever been in that situation, so for one I made something plausible up, another I stretched the truth of a situation and then thought of an even better answer the next day, annoyingly. But have now made notes of those so I can be prepared next time

  71. Me!*

    Question: is this question on an application a red flag?
    What is your required salary? Answers stating ‘negotiable’ will not be considered.

    I highballed a starting salary (because of course I did), factoring in my work at my last position and my freelance experience, not expecting an answer. Surprisingly, they reached out to me with a skills test (!).

    I’m interested in this role; while it’s a little bit of a stretch, it’s also the kind of work I liked and did best at Exjob. But I’m wondering if the salary question is something I should be concerned about, assuming I don’t screw up the test.

    What do you think?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I wouldn’t call it a red flag. Just like when it’s not useful to an applicant to receive a salary non-answer from a company, it’s not useful for a company to get a salary non-answer from an applicant.

      1. Educator*

        I don’t think it is quite the same because of the information imbalance. As an applicant, I don’t know their budgeted range, more than a page or so of information about the role, the value of their benefits package, etc. So it would be really premature for me to have a specific number in mind. The hiring manager, on the other hand, knows the budget, what they expect from the role in much greater nuance, and details of the full compensation package.

        I feel like this question is a weird guessing game at best, and an effort to low ball people at worst. Is it better than asking about salary history? Yes. Does it start the conversation about compensation in a fair and helpful way? No.

        1. Decidedly Me*

          I hear you, though this question is specific to the application saying they won’t take “negotiable” as an answer (that was my interpretation at least), which I could actually see in apps both where a salary range is and is not provided in the ad. Do I think it’s a great question? No – but I still don’t think it’s a red flag.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        But they’re asking for one number rather than a range; that plus the power imbalance of making the applicant say a number first is crappy on the employer end.

      1. Alternative Person*

        Same. You can never know quite how many fingers are in the pot when it comes to application forms/systems and related decisions.

    2. ecnaseener*

      It’s a dick move to require you to name a salary without any info on their range, but it’s a common enough dick move that you can’t really filter out everyone who does it unless you’re in a position to be really choosy.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        No it’s not. The salary transparency thing works two ways. I am legitimately confused by this thread that it is a problem.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Search this site for Alison’s writing on it – she argues the people who know what the range is (and what exactly the job entails!) ought to be the ones to go first, instead of making candidates name a number with very little context. You obviously are allowed to disagree.

    3. Bess*

      Yes but no. You don’t know who decided to put that on the form and whether they’ll have anything to do with your day-to-day work. It’s not great but it’s a common practice and may have little to do with the actual job, when all’s said and done.

    4. Me!*

      Thanks, everyone. I’ve seen this field required on many applications but not the part about answers. I just put the absolute lowest salary I would accept. It was still kind of high, which is why I didn’t think I’d hear back. If I get far enough into the process to know their range, then I can negotiate.

      1. Me!*

        Also wanted to add, the interaction I had via email with the HR person was lovely. Her emails were very warm and friendly. :) I suspect if I get rejected, it will be the nicest rejection letter ever, lol.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I can see why they aren’t accepting “negotiable” as an answer, but the framing should be “what is your minimum required salary?” I’d read it as just to gauge whether it’s worth continuing the process, similar to having a recruiter ask your expected salary/range up front. Obviously it’s better and easier if the company just states “This role pays $X” and lets people self-select in or out but not inherently a red flag.

      Either way, you’re not locked in by what you write before you even have a conversation with them. If they say “But you said you’d accept $X on your application,” the response could be “That was before I gathered more information about the role; with the additional information I believe $Y is an appropriate salary.”

      1. Me!*

        I like that framing much better. If employers are going to include the question, I think that’s how they should say it. I think I’ll keep that in mind for future applications.

    6. Any Name At All*

      While it’s frustrating for jobs to ask for a required salary instead of being upfront about their salary range, I think it’s hyperbolic to call it a “red flag.”

    7. RagingADHD*

      I think, under the circumstances you have to deal with, you should worry less about idealized hiring practices and more about having a reliable source of income.

      1. Me!*

        RagingADHD and Any Name at All, I asked a question about something on an application that seemed unnecessarily rigid. That’s what this thread is for. I wasn’t trying to be hyperbolic. As for having a reliable source of income, hello, that’s why I’m applying to every job I can reasonably do. You have no idea what I’m doing or how I’m doing it.

        It seems this comment section has swung toward people making massive and rampant assumptions about everything (not just me; it happens in almost every discussion, both about OPs and other commenters). Maybe I will just read from now on and not comment or seek any advice that doesn’t come from Alison.

        1. Energy bar*

          This seems like a pretty extreme reaction to people disagreeing with you. For another data point, it’s been VERY normal in my experience for employers to ask that, especially recently. I’ve been in situations where what I wanted was way off from the range they were planning, and there’s often a salary conversation pretty early on if they’re genuinely interested: “We noticed that you put X, and wanted to let you know that’s higher than the budget we currently have for the role- does it still make sense to talk?”

          I think people really try to be helpful in the open threads here- that doesn’t always mean they are going to agree with you. Frankly, it IS a little hyperbolic to call it a red flag…it’s so common that if you dismissed any job that asked for your desired range, you’d miss out on a lot of job opportunities.

          Is it ideal that they ask for a salary range? No, but it’s the reality we’re all living in right now, and it’s so common that it’s something you should be ready for if you’re looking for a job. It’s your prerogative to take whatever advice you want, but I think Alison would agree with this, for what that’s worth.

        2. andor*

          I think the issue is that you are taking things Alison has discussed as problematic and you are going a step further and labeling them red flags, which is not what she has said in posts here. She calls out many things as problematic while also explaining they are common and thus not red flags about an employer. That’s the nuance that you might be missing.

          And when you have been unemployed for years, you cannot be picky about something like this anyway. Alison regularly point out you can be picky when you have lots of options but if you just need a job you take what you can get. She also says that when you have a weak job history the employers who will hire you are the less than ideal ones and you use them to build up a more solid job history over time so in time you become a more appealing candidate to better employers.

          I think what you are picking up on here is that it’s galling to regular commenters to see you job searching for years, for years saying how desperately you need a job and then talking as if you would pass one up if they do something that is a minor irritation or less than ideal.

        3. RagingADHD*

          It is not an assumption that you have a pattern of dismissing job opportunities or sabotaging your candidacy for perfectly fine jobs because they don’t meet an ever-increasing list of unreasonable expectations.

          *You have talked about this pattern directly yourself.* It is a known issue both to you, and to regular readers.

          I’m just giving you a friendly, “Hey, you know that thing you mentioned that you tend to do? I think you’re doing it again.”

          1. Dashboard light*

            Yes to all of what RagingADHD said! West, I have watched you time and time again complain here about being stuck in your mom’s basement, dependent on her paycheck, why won’t the universe drop a wealthy husband into your lap, etc

            Then you finally get a temp job after YEARS of unemployment…and use half the paycheck on some weirdo small time convention instead of maybe putting it towards a move-put fund. You have a very weird hatred of libraries which is a little weird considering you supposedly want to be a full time author. And now you’re looking for ways to reject this company before it’s even brought you in for an interview. What exactly is your plan 1, 5, 10 years from now? Because your mom won’t live forever, and you have had no job for years to pay into social security. So why are you lashing out at the few sensible commenters on here, like RagingADHD, for trying to save you from your worst enemy—yourself

        4. Undercover Regular*

          Look, you are right that we don’t know what your job search looks like IRL. All anyone is going off is what you post about. But you are an extremely prolific longtime poster and have been writing about your job search on this blog for literally years at this point, so I don’t think it’s fair of you to claim that anyone is making massive unfounded assumptions. I am not trying to be hostile or put you off commenting – I don’t know if this is maybe one of those things that’s far more obvious to onlookers than to the person doing it, but as a regular reader for years I have to concur with the others that you seem to talk about “red flags” and other reasons not to apply for jobs to an extent that is not realistic in your current situation.

        5. Any Name At All*

          Your reaction to people disagreeing with you is hyperbolic.

          You’ve been out of work for many years, but instead of taking what you can get you dismiss it before giving it a chance. There are a lot of things that are frustrating about working, but it doesn’t make it a red flag. There are a lot of things people don’t like about their jobs or about working, but they suck it up and do what they need to do. And the money people make from their jobs can be used towards things that they genuinely enjoy.

          You keep talking about wanting to move to Boston, but a job that’s willing to hire and relocate someone from out of state with a spotty work history is a long shot and unrealistic. And how will you afford to move to Boston if you spend the money you make at the odd temp job at sci-fi conventions?

          While everyone deserves a chance at pursuing their dreams, there are times when it’s best to face the facts and take actions that are more down to earth and realistic to your situation. Your so-called “dream job” may be where you already are, but you’ve got to be willing to give it a chance.

    8. Dashboard light*

      Elizabeth, I thought you wanted a job that would allow you to move out to Boston. So why are you actively looking for reasons to turn down any avenue that might lead you to your dream?

      Not all flags are red unless someone is purposely looking for flags.

  72. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Resources for burnout?

    I’m on my last ragged nerve, my therapist is sending me out of work on FMLA, and I don’t want to be like my other burned-out coworker who basically burns through all his available time (including FMLA) and comes back still burned-out.

    It’s not just work burnout, but looking for resources and advice for my time off?

    1. FED UP*

      Oh man, that’s relatable. What’s helped me the most is thinking through my priorities. Write everything down. Some good questions to think about: What aspects of your life are the most meaningful to you? How do you *want* to be spending your time, both while at work and in your personal life? How much can you realistically achieve in the time, resources, and opportunities that you have? What can you downsize to make room for the things that matter? What’s in your control and what isn’t?

      As for your FMLA, when you’re off, be *off*. Try to engage in non-screen activities if you can. Walks in nature are super therapeutic. And please don’t expect instant results– I read that recovering from acute burnout can take about three months, and then there’s the issue of restructuring your life so you don’t just plop yourself right back in the same situation, which can take a long time as well. It’s a difficult hole to climb out of, but I believe you (and anyone else) can do it and ultimately it will be soooo worth it. Good luck, friend!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      For work burnout, what I have seen recommended is to take at least two weeks off work if you can for the first level of decompression. Can you take a two-week chunk of FMLA right off the bat to give yourself enough time to not think about work?

      For more general advice, set your expectations of your time off correctly. You’re not going to deep clean the house or learn a new language. You’re going to recover from burnout. So listen to your body. Sleep when you are tired. Eat when you are hungry. Get in touch with friends/family when you are lonely. Give yourself space to rest and relax and heal.

    3. Retired to Morning Room to Write My Letters*

      My sympathy to you.
      Do some things that will give you a break from your thoughts. So, going for a walk in nature sounds good but in my experience you can just carry on having burn out (anxious) thoughts while you’re walking, so it’s not actually a break! For me what would actually give my brain a break could be swimming, knitting, going out for drinks with friends – whatever takes your mind OFF it for a space of time. Our brains really need rests.

  73. Reality check*

    My colleague has threatened to quit and as a result our boss has promoted her. Unfortunately this means that I will be reporting to her all of a sudden. She is a lovely colleague but I really don’t like her management style. We have previously discussed issues in our respective teams and I see her as a micromanager who, albeit well meaningly, suffocates her direct reports. I’m not thrilled about this change.

    I also see this as a demotion and feel disappointed and demoralised. I have already made the case to my boss that this change would actually make it more difficult to do my job, but he says my colleague/new boss would benefit a great deal from learning some of my specific skills. I asked him specifically if there is anything he wants me to learn from my colleague/new boss, and he couldn’t say anything.

    This is a demotion, isn’t it?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I mean, if your colleague got promoted to be your manager, that isn’t a demotion for you. It’s a promotion for her. That said, if she has to threaten to quit to get promoted, that feels very counteroffer territory, which means she may not stay for very long potentially?

      Based on what you’ve written, I think the main issue you should focus on is her management style.

    2. TooOld4AllThis*

      While not technically a demotion, it sure feels like one. And a minor insult – “new boss would benefit a great deal from learning some of my specific skills” – really – she’s the boss and you’re supposed to teach her. Ugg. BTW, what would happen if YOU threatened to quit? Would they promote you too?

    3. Velociraptor Attack*

      Was your coworker slotted in between you and your previous boss? I can see how that might feel like a demotion in a strictly org-chart sense (and I would probably feel the same way) but overall, objectively I really don’t think it is a demotion.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Not a demotion but boy your boss made an error, and you need to discuss this. Being a manager is not an award or a prize! I am burnt out at times from caring too much about other people and worrying if everything is going to come into place and get done. I also feel a bit held under a microscope at times, either I’m too pushy or I’m a pushover. I am micromanaging or I am not talking to them enough. That sort of stuff. You don’t put someone in a role like this as a reward!!!!!!!!

  74. Jw*

    If someone is a truly high performer, let’s say twice as productive as fully competent peers/”market”, what do folks think an appropriate compensation differential versus “market” would be? Theoretically anything less than 2X is still a financial win for the employer, but of course that’s not how things are done.

    1. Trying to Change*

      I think this is one of the problems with work. There are definitely at least a few jobs where output is this easy to measure (widget makers where widgets/hour is standardized and somebody clearly makes 2x widgest/hour – or sales). As you say most jobs, except commissions, are not going to pay one employee twice what they pay another employee in the same role. Maybe if there’s a bonus? Traditionally, this person is supposed to get … promoted, because that’s the real way we reward people to the extent of double salary. But there’s no evidence the world’s fastest widget maker is going to be a good supervisor and in fact now you’ve just reduced overall widget capacity. So maybe either “senior widget maker” who doesn’t supervise and just gets paid a LOT more, or some kind of bonus / commission based system.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Who is making the assessment of productivity? What is the long-term contribution to the department or the business as a whole? From the employer’s perspective, I would look at the bottom-line impact to expenses or revenue rather than the employee’s individual output. How much new business was generated, or how much was saved in operating expenses, after this employee started vs. what the business was doing before? I really doubt there was 2x impact from a single employee.

      Then there is the question of retention and replacement. What could the same employee make elsewhere? What would it cost to replace them if they left? (Again, that number is likely to be much less than 2x compensation).

  75. Professionally Speaking*

    I’m having a hard time finding the right words for a problem. I was recently given a task (sending a specific email) that seems to have previously not been any particular persons’ responsibility. Regardless, other people are still editing the email, pushing back send date, changing promo codes, links, etc. without telling me (or my supervisor). Some of it is just miscommunication of changes because people didn’t realize it’s now my task, but some of it has just blatantly been a couple people want to edit or put their two cents in and it’s causing me big problems. We were supposed to send the email at the end of the month and because of changes and ‘wait don’t send’ it didn’t go out. As it is my responsibility, I’m really mad about that. (Doesn’t make me look good!)
    I have a good relationship with my supervisor and he and I are feeling the same level of frustration, so he’s got my back. My worry is more how to professionally tell everyone to butt out. This is my task and should be my task only, but I’m on a more junior level than those who are interfering so I don’t know how to appropriately say this. Any advice would be helpful!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      This sounds like a problem you and your supervisor should solve together. “Hey, [supervisor], I’m still having trouble getting pushback and corrections on the end-of-month email. What’s the best way for us to communicate to everyone that this is now my task and they should not interfere?”

      Because you’re on a more junior level than the people butting in, the best way is probably an announcement from your supervisor to the team/department that this task is officially yours. But ask your supervisor and see what his thoughts are for how to handle this.

      1. Professionally Speaking*

        This is really helpful, thank you! I may use this phrasing to tell my supervisor. We have a good relationship but I still want to sound professional

    2. PollyQ*

      Is it necessary for so many people to review the email before it gets sent out? Easiest way to stop getting unwanted feedback is to stop asking for it! If that’s not an option, then send it around with very clear, hard deadlines for responses. E.g., if it’s supposed to go out the first of the month, all feedback must be returned by the 23rd. Also, I think you can probably start pushing back on some of what’s being requested, e.g., “Thanks for the font color suggestions, Fergus, but we’re going to stick with black.” In other words, start exercising the authority you have.

      I also agree with Hlao-roo that it’s a good idea for your supervisor to send out some kind of announcement letting everyone know this is now your official responsibility.

      1. Professionally Speaking*

        Thanks, that really helps. I hadn’t thought about setting deadlines but I probably will start. The issue is mainly these people don’t need to review, they just think they’re right. They shouldn’t have any part of it anymore but they must have had a part in the past that they still put their ideas in.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Announcing your ownership of the task, setting up a clear process, AND moving the pending file(s) away from where coworkers expect them to be could be an enormously helpful combination of actions.

  76. Aggretsuko*

    I had a job interview this week (Monday). It went well enough, but I was probably not the most outstanding of the three candidates, because I never am. They said they’d weed down to two, have a second interview, and decide by the end of next week. Since I haven’t heard anything all week, and given the timeline, I think I was probably the last place candidate and ruled out (unless one drops out, anyway, which may be why I wasn’t told I am out of the running QUITE yet).

    I don’t know how I feel about it. I wasn’t in love or particular like with the job–it at least isn’t phones/front counter but otherwise sounds just as stressful, and I don’t really care other than it would be a slight improvement over this one, and finding out it was full time in the office every day was kind of a buzzkill even though I expected them to do that. I got kind of upset thinking about having to give up my work from home days and possibly my eternal Zoom account. But…whatever. I give up.

    How are you supposed to keep plugging along and trying when you suck, and you know you suck, and you’re not good enough for anybody or anything? Just wondering.

    1. tired librarian*

      Of all the times I’ve interviewed I think there was maybe once time they actually stuck to the stated timeline. Usually when I’m told “we’ll let you know by x date” I add like a week to that for when to expect news by. So I don’t think you need to be sure that you’re out of the running.

      I also want to say: when changing jobs it’s normal that there may be things about your old job that you liked and things about the new job you like less. Unless you are very lucky, most of us have to accept some things at work that we’re less than enthusiastic about. Feeling upset about that doesn’t necessarily mean you would hate the new job.

      It sounds like you’re a really negative headspace right now. I can understand that because interviewing is a very stressful process that I think can really play into our insecurities. But I’m wondering if you have a therapist or have considered talking to a therapist about how you are feeling about yourself? You don’t deserve to feel like you suck and that you’re not good enough! There is no way that is true. Interviewing is hard but it shouldn’t make you feel worthless.

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I don’t even know you and I know it’s not possible for you to suck as much as you claim to here.

      It sounds like you’re going through a really hard time and your self worth has taken a pretty big hit. If you have a way of finding a mental health practitioner to talk to, I’d recommend it.

      If not, or in the meantime, what’s the last thing you did that made you feel proud of yourself? Can you focus more of your time and energy into the things you know you’re good at to start rebuilding your confidence? Do you have a trusted friend or family member who would be willing to brainstorm a Things I’m Good At list with you?

      You are a worthwhile person with good qualities and skills to offer the world. You just need to find a way to start believing it.

    3. PollyQ*

      when you suck, and you know you suck, and you’re not good enough for anybody or anything?

      This feeling is probably more of a handicap to your job search than your actual abilities or experience, so I strongly recommend getting some therapy to tackle this issue. Yes, it’s really hard to find someone right now, so maybe a CBT workbook or something of that ilk might be a good starter. You could also schedule a checkup with your primary care Dr and tell her about your self-doubt. She may be able to recommend someone and possibly get you seen a little sooner. I’m sorry your feeling so crummy, and I hope you find a way to feel better soon. Good luck!

  77. puddy*

    I got offered a position in a different team and accepted it. It would offer me a opportunity to get promoted and learn something new. I was promised a promotion a year ago, which was the only reason I decided to stay at the company. The promotion hasn’t materialized. I’ve also been promised a few more things which haven’t materialized.

    My boss tells me he needs me to do a 6 months long hand-over before I switch to the other team.

    I’ve been in the company for 1.5 year. Other companies are offering me +50-70% vs. my current salary.

    What would you do?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Take the new, external job offer if you like it. Your company pushed you to this – they should not have allowed your boss to require a 6 month transition, they should not have promised and not delivered on promotions and other items. Apologize, tell them that an opportunity fell into your lap and it would be irresponsible of you not to take it, give your 2 weeks notice, and GO.

    2. CatCat*

      Look for a new job. Your current employer is failing to keep promises, is underpaying you, and your boss is being ridiculous.

      Is there a reason you want to stay/go to the new team? If so, is new boss advocating for you? (New boss should be drawing a hard line at like a one month MAX, preferably less time, hand off.) If new boss is advocating, are they going to be successful in a work environment where broken promises are acceptable?

      1. puddy*

        I wanted to try it out over there. I’m not sure if the job would be more interesting or if the switch would enable me more growth, but I wanted to give it a try. They also promised me that after going there I would be promoted as soon as they “try me out”.

        But 6 months sounds super strange.

        Also they argue that they can’t give me a salary increase/ promotion because my current role isn’t important enought. And then they claim my leaving requires 6 months of a hand-over because my role is sooo important. For me it doesn’t make any sense, I’m very frustrated.

        1. Observer*

          Look for a new job. They are super stringing you along.

          Even if they counter-offer, don’t take it. They are not playing in good faith, and that is worse that almost anything else.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Your current company overpromises and underdelivers, and is mostly content to have you remain stuck in place. It apparently underpays if you’re seeing equivalent jobs for much higher salaries.

          If those other jobs are effectively equivalent and come with a big raise, you should take them up on it!

    3. Roland*

      50 to 70 percent! Absolutely start interviewing. Unless you know those jobs are all horrible then I feel like you owe it to yourself to at least learn more about them.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I would:

      1) Consider the salary increase for the position on the new team. Is it more than 70% increase? If yes, go to 2. If not, go to 3.

      2) Talk to the person in charge of the new team about this supposed 6-month handover. If you already have an offer in hand, your boss’ opinion may be irrelevant. If they overrule your boss, and say a reasonable handover of a few weeks is fine, take the new position and rejoice. If not, go to 3.

      3) Take one of the better paying jobs at another company and don’t look back.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would go to a new company. Your current company has proven they don’t mean what they say.

  78. doubtfulnelly*

    Should I stay or should I go? I don’t really like my current job anymore, have been there for 5 years and I’m not learning anything new, in fact I am so burned out that I can barely do my functions properly. Problem: my company *might* allow me to work remote, if I leave I’d have to pay back tuition reimbursement for the last year, around $8k.
    I got a job offer for slightly more, benefits aren’t so great but from talking to people that actually work there, the culture is a lot better, less hours and I would be doing something different.
    Is it worth to think solely on the money aspect or should I consider everything overall?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      If you decline and stay: how much longer do you have to stay until you don’t have to pay back the tuition bonus? Will you job search immediately after that date, or stick around longer?

      If you accept and leave: How will you pay back the $8k? How would the less-great benefits impact your life?

      Answer those questions for yourself, and then imagine each of the possible futures. Assume that your current company will not allow you to remote work while you’re doing this exercise. Which path feels like the better one if you imagine your future a month from now? Which path feels like the better one if you imagine yourself a year from now? Five years from now?

    2. Nathalie*

      It couldn’t hurt to try to negotiate some kind of sign-on bonus with the other company to offset the tuition thing. You don’t seem too enthusiastic about the potential new job so you don’t really have anything to lose!

    3. CatCat*

      Would changing to this new job let you recover from the burnout? Or would it just be adding different stressors? I’d think about those things.

      (Agree with Nathalie to see if you can negotiate a sign-on bonus if you want to pursue it).

    4. Be Gneiss*

      I don’t know what your financial situation is, so obviously that’s a factor. I recently left a pretty toxic job where I was completely burned out, for something sort of adjacent but with a much more narrow scope. I ended up taking a small pay cut and lost a week of vacation, but EVERYTHING about new job has been an improvement. The culture is great. The onboarding is well-though-out and thorough. There’s a whole assortment of weird little benefits that I love. The work is fun. Most importantly, this job gives me an actual work-life balance that I never could have attained in the old one.
      I would have like more money, but in the end that wasn’t a dealbreaker, and I wasn’t leaving the old job over money anyway. However, if the money aspect is going to cause you a lot of stress, then that is something that you need to take into account.

      That’s just to say – I love reading the updates here where people find something new that pays heaps more money…but it’s okay if the reasons a new job are “better” is because it makes you happy.

  79. AnonEmployee*

    I have concerns about office politics during local political upheaval.
    My town has had almost weekly anti-transgender rallies this month. I’ve been compartmentalizing between my work (where I’m the only out trans person in our department) and my personal life (where many of my friends are receiving transphobic and homophobic threats). I do not discuss politics with most of my coworkers. While they are kind to me as an individual, they are also open about supporting far right candidates (including local candidates who have attended or spoken in favor of the anti-trans rallies).
    I recently broke my “no politics at work” rule to warn several coworkers that an upcoming rally has ties to a violent alt-right group. These coworkers live near the rally site, so I was concerned about their safety.
    In response to office discussion about the next rally, management has suggested more Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion training. While I appreciate the idea, I’m apprehensive about attending this training with coworkers who react negatively to anything they consider “woke.”
    Do I have grounds to ask to not attend the training? Or to attend an online alternative by myself?

    1. Nathalie*

      Are you out at work? If so, and if you think your manager/whoever is in charge of the training would be receptive, I think you should at least ask about it, especially if the training is specifically about gender identity or LGBTQ stuff more broadly. It’s trickier if you’re not/don’t want to be out at work, but I think you can still request it while being more vague about the reason. Worst they can say is no!

    2. Educator*

      First, I am so sorry that you have to live with that level of hate and violence in your everyday life. That level of compartmentalizing cannot be easy.

      When my organization was doing some DEI training around the time of major BLM protests, our awesomely diverse leadership team decided that our BIPOC staff members might need different support around these issues than their white peers. We also did not want to put them in the position of having to educate anyone about their experience, because that burden belonged to the team facilitating the training. We ended up running a separate session for people who self-identified as BIPOC and wanted to meet with others who did too, and that meeting had a different agenda. It got really good feedback and led to an ongoing identity-based professional group. If you are out at work and have DEI leaders who are committed to identifying best practices instead of just checking a box, I think you absolutely have grounds suggest something similar, even if it is just you online. (But, full disclosure, I live in a part of the country where “woke” is a professional expectation, not an insult.)

      1. AnonEmployee*

        Thanks, I appreciate it.
        I’ll bring up the idea that different groups of employees might need different support. I’m the only out trans person in our office. There are a few people who are out as other parts of the LGBTQ+ acronym. I could try asking them first to learn if they’d want something different too.

    3. M&M Mo*

      Weekly anti-trans rallies? That’s so awful. I am literally speechless. Sadly, I don’t have any advice to give you, but just offering my support.

    4. just another queer reader*

      I’m so sorry you’re in this situation.

      If management/ DEI is at all competent, they should recognize the difficult situation you’re in and make sure that you don’t end up in an unsafe “training” session. You don’t need to be your coworkers’ token, educator, or punching bag. If you trust them to handle this well, I’d do what you suggested – skip it or ask to do some sort of individual training.

      If they’re not competent, it might be smart for you to have a stomach bug or dentist appointment the afternoon of the training, then make it up later on your own.

      It might be helpful to band together with the other LGBTQ staff on this – or it might not. Sometimes cis gays are clueless on trans issues; sometimes they’re great allies.

      Sending you my best.

    5. just another queer reader*

      Double commenting because I keep thinking about this.

      You mention that people openly talk about supporting transphobic leaders, and that they react negatively to anything perceived as “woke.”

      I don’t think a DEI training is likely to make the workplace safer for trans and other LGBTQ people, and might make things worse. Is that your sense?

      Instead, do you think that managers might be able to tamp down the political conversations at work? Or lay down the line: “our company supports the LGBTQ community/ a respectful workplace/ complies with applicable federal employment law and will not tolerate X and Y”?

      But also, it’s not your job to advise your company on DEI strategy, especially not as the one openly trans person.

      Idk, this is tough, and I don’t know the answers.

  80. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Just a Friday vent. I’ve been out of work and actively (and I mean ACTIVELY) job hunting for almost 3 months. I’ve made it to the final round 4 times – lost out twice to internal candidates, and twice there was just someone better. I’m so burnt out!

    In the next two business days I have two second (and I think final?) round interviews at two very different organizations (A&B), but I was also told last week that I’d be having a final interview with a third, also very different organization (C) next week. C is the one I really want, and I’m nervous that I haven’t been scheduled yet! The first two organizations are moving quickly so there’s a very real chance I could have an offer before I get to interview with C again, and I’m really not in a position to turn down an offer if C isn’t willing to accelerate their process.

    Position A would be the same pay I was making in my last role and in an organization very in line with my values, but wouldn’t be a step toward my ideal career progression. I’m worried I would have a difficult time making the transition back to the exact field I want to be in and would end up in this exact position (well, hopefully not unemployed but struggling to find a new job) in 2 or 3 years.

    Position B is closer to what I want to do professionally, but would likely end up being a small pay cut. I like the team and the work sounds fine, but again not exactly what I want to do long term.

    Position C is the dream. It would be a huge pay increase and exactly what I want to be doing. It would basically unlock my dream career, I’d be set for life! It’s obviously not perfect but working there for a few years would be the stepping stone to other, better organizations and an amazing long term career.

    I don’t really have a question, was mostly just posting to vent, but if you’ve got any advice I’ll take it!

    1. Sherm*

      You’re doing great! Making it to the final round 4 times — and now 3 other possibilities — is quite a lot. There’s good advice on this site about what to do if you have an offer but are waiting for a different potential employer that you like more. Also lots of good advice on how to negotiate salary.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      You’re doing so well! I’ve never had that level of activity and getting to the top tier so many times in all my job searches.
      All fingers crossed you get the job you want!
      And, you never know. There may be jobs D and E out there that are even better…

  81. AnonyNurse*

    Power Apps/Power Automate:

    Anyone have suggestions for an in-depth course/class for non-coders? I’ve gotten frustrated with some things at work that are harder than they need to be and started building some simple tools, doing a lot of YouTube watching and Google searching for answers. But I know that I’m missing wide swaths of basic knowledge and things it could do if only I knew it could.

    I’d spend (work’s) money on a real course. Not sure if “boot camp” is the right term cause this really isn’t my area, except … maybe I want it to be?

    I do have a “favorite” YouTuber for problem solving but there’s only so much you can get out of pause/try to replicate/rewind, etc.

    Thanks!

    1. user36728*

      If I were you I would first think about what you want to do and only then think about the tools.

      Are you designing something just for you or more people? What should be done? Should it be scalable or will it remain tiny?

      There are plenty of courses on Udemy and similar platforms, but I’m not a huge fan of Power Apps/ Automate unless for very special cases.

      1. AnonyNurse*

        So for a small/medium all fairly newly remote nonprofit, what’s better? We need to create far better “paper” flows, accountability, etc. Org still operating like it’s 15 years ago, there’s 1/3 of the employees, and all in the same office. And integrating power apps into Teams makes it “easy” for people who are shockingly resistant to change.

        My roles always end up including “fixing broken processes” cause I really love doing it. This is the first time I’ve worked with any of this software, cause I couldn’t find anything commercial that met our needs, and other platforms required a ton more coding.

  82. Trying to Change*

    Has anyone ever successfully changed their mindset about work? I realized lately that I have a pretty bad attitude at capitalism in general, and even though I’m arguably correct that my employers are trying to exploit me, I really just don’t think this is helpful *for me* anymore. I have friends who say things like they truly just love putting in a hard day’s work or they always go above and beyond and I see that their attitude makes them happier day to day than my sense of resentful compliance does for me. For so long I’ve sort of done the minimum required to get away with it and felt like I’m “sticking it to the man.” I know I need an attitude adjustment because I’m probably looking at two or three more decades in the labor force. Any tips? Can anyone relate?

    1. Trying to Change*

      For background, my dad was a total workhorse for years who probably worked 50-60 hours a week all through my childhood just because he loved work, and then he was laid off when he turned 60 – and I myself was exploited pretty badly in early jobs (expected to work nights and weekends for 30K a year, which isn’t even legal anymore). So this attitude comes from somewhere. But you know, my dad’s good work habits meant he got consulting roles in retirement and other people who cheerfully paid their dues starting out are now further along than I am, so who’s the “sucker” here really??

    2. Kat Maps*

      I have a very similar mindset, so I can very much relate. I haven ‘t tried to change my mindset neccessarily, but there are a couple things I do to help myself get through the weeks.
      My father had a very strong work ethic. He worked in the trades. I think he only took a single sick day throughout my life. I really internalized this mindset, very much to my detriment.
      I’m lucky to work in a unionized position. I find that being involved with my union helps me be surrounded by like-minded people and gives me a sense of community. I also volunteer for some organizations. While these things don’t remove my anti-capitalist sentiment, being involved in community outside the workplace is helpful and restorative for me.

    3. ecnaseener*

      It kinda sounds like your current approach is “I have to let myself be exploited but I don’t have to be happy about it.” I can see why that’s getting unpleasant, it’s a very passive outlook. The feeling of “sticking it to the man” is a bit hollow when you’re still doing what they need you to do.

      If you’re actively trying not to get any enjoyment or satisfaction out of work, you hereby have permission to let that go. Let yourself feel a little satisfied at ticking off your to-do list or zoning out doing repetitive work or whatever. Stop putting energy into fighting your own mind, save that energy for your life and your hobbies and maybe even for mobilizing to make the world a better place!

      And if you can set any goals, that would help too to bring back a sense of agency. Maybe that goal is a promotion or a better job in another field, maybe it’s just sticking this job out with minimal stress to you.

    4. Bess*

      Truthfully, I think if you are approaching your work in a nickel and dime mindset, it’s likely coming across to your colleagues and employer in some way. If your employer is doing that, it’s not great for morale/exploitative; I wouldn’t say it’s the same in the reverse, because the employer has more power, but for example it’s easy enough to see as a manager when someone is intentionally doing the bare minimum, and that’s absolutely going to hold them back from internal opportunities and it’s going to reflect whenever I give them a reference, particularly because my demands as a manager are reasonable and what I can pay them is fair. How could I recommend them for a higher responsibility position when I see them primarily concerned with doing the least amount of work possible?

      THAT SAID, I think if you are in a situation where you are objectively underpaid, routinely being asked to work 50 hour weeks with no flex time or similar, not being given opportunities for growth & development, etc., it can make sense to pull back what you are doing.

      But yeah, generally if you’re going into work with some kind of “bare minimum” attitude, it’s probably perceivable and is likely holding you back.

    5. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      You’re on the right track focusing on what’s in it for you. You’ve already answered the key question — is this belief serving me? And it’s not. It’s making you push uphill mentally, that’s a lot to carry day in and day out. You don’t have to go above and beyond or learn to love work, it can just be neutral. I do a good job so I can live my life and create an easier future. Personally, I’d need a list of reminders tacked up on the wall so I could see it every time I got crabby.

      My therap.ist would ask me to check in with that voice. This part of you does come from real experiences, and it’s trying to help you in some way even if it doesn’t seem helpful. What does it want? What is it trying to do? What need isn’t being met? While an attitude adjustment sounds helpful, there could be other practical solutions like a job in a less-capitalistic field or an offset like volunteer work or personal reward.

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      When you’re focused on “sticking it to the man,” you’re making “the man” the focal point of your life in a way they don’t deserve. You’re right that the way work is set up in capitalist systems is full of exploitation. But what would happen if you decided that, since you’re going to work in an exploitative system no matter where you work or what you do, you may as well be exploited doing something you don’t hate?

      The people who say they love working hard don’t actually love all forms of working hard at all times. They love specific things about working hard. They may find the tasks they do enjoyable, they may get fulfillment from feeling like they’re filling a need for someone else, they may feel satisfaction in completing their list of tasks for the day, or any number of other things. Very few people actually love working hard as a concept in and of itself, they love the things that working hard gives them.

      So what kinds of things do you think you could find a way to enjoy? You don’t have to work 50 hour weeks and nights and weekends and allow yourself to be taken advantage of left and right, but as long as we live in a world where we have to sell our labor for dollars, try to think about ways you can do that that you might actually enjoy.

      1. Trying to Change*

        “They may find the tasks they do enjoyable, they may get fulfillment from feeling like they’re filling a need for someone else, they may feel satisfaction in completing their list of tasks for the day” … this is helping me realize I’m truly missing some kind of gene here and that’s going a long way towards my problem. I need to figure out what a version of this looks like for me. Thanks for everyone’s insights on this, it’s a lot of food for thought.

        1. Angry socialist*

          If you are, I am too. Your initial post could have been written by me. I resent having to have a job if I want to live indoors or have healthcare. I am staring at 26 more working years. Two rounds of therapy haven’t changed that I hate being expected to give up 40 hours a week for the rest of my days because we live in a capitalist hellscape.

          No advice, just sympathy.

      2. Pescadero*

        ” you may as well be exploited doing something you don’t hate?”

        My problem is I hate having to have a job.

        I don’t hate my job… I actually like the work – but I have a visceral hatred of the very obligation of having to work.

        So for me it’s just been 25+ years of trying to find jobs I hate the least, that pay the most so I can quit having a job as soon as possibly achievable (just under 10 years to go).

        1. Trying to Change*

          Yeah so far I’ve basically arranged my career to try and get the most money I can to do as little as possible … which is one way to approach a career, sure, but like I said, I see the people around me seeming to thrive with a different attitude.

    7. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I feel like there is a lot of negativity out there and it doesn’t help at all. You don’t stick it to the man by doing less, you stick it to your boss or your coworker, who is also a person like you are. And you stifle your chances of any promotion or getting more lines for your resume. Maybe your chances of a promotion are low, but they’re going to be zilch if you have this sort of attitude.

      Many of the things I’ve been seeing online take a general life things and slap on “becuase capitalism” at the end. It’s getting old, a lot of the stuff is stuff that would be happening regardless of the system. Getting up and having to do stuff and pay for stuff is not “capitalism” it’s every single system.

      But unlike other systems, your role is not static. You are not married to your job. You can get training, you can move around, you can be as good or as horrible as you want. You can get paid more or at least make a case to get paid more. You can use a horrible environment to learn new things that parlay into a better job. And unlike other systems that just fizzled out 30 years ago, you don’t need to belong to a party or say certain things to move up.

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Have you thought about changing your line of work? Your post reminded me of my SIL, who is also fairly anti-capitalist but she absolutely loves her work as a child therapist. She gets to work with children and families in need every day and make a real difference in their lives, even though she also has to deal with all the bullshit that goes with it. Could you perhaps seek out a role where you truly feel you’re making a positive difference in the world?

    9. Irish Teacher*

      In addition to what everybody else has said, I’d also say to think about whether you are in the right job for you.

      I wouldn’t say I “truly just love putting in a hard day’s work” and honestly, I think that is a somewhat unusual attitude towards work, but…I do love the job I have. It’s not that I am ambitious or that I want to contribute to capitalism or love the idea of work in general; it’s that I am doing something I genuinely enjoy.

    10. mreasy*

      Your mindset is arguably much healthier than that of those who work themselves to burnout and chronic health issues. I’m in a similar boat, where I don’t value the work in and of itself, so I make sure to focus on what the work (my salary and benefits) enable me to do that I do value (lots of monthly charitable giving, vacations sometimes, even small things like hair color or the nice cat food). This only works for me because my work environment is largely a good one: I get along with most coworkers and have a supportive boss. My job is tough; I’m a senior exec with a ton on my plate – but having a level of workplace comfort fills in the gaps that sheer ambition or belief in the system otherwise might.

    11. just another queer reader*

      For what it’s worth, I feel pretty neutral about my job and career. I recognize that my work is tied to some shitty and exploitative systems (as is most work). I also get some satisfaction from it, and my coworkers are pleasant. My job lets me live a comfortable life and do things that I want to do: hobbies, friends, good food, free time, etc. I generally think of my relationship with work as symbiotic instead of exploitative.

      I do wonder if you might have a better time in a different line of work. A suggestion, if you want it: list out the following.
      – your talents: what you’re good at (don’t limit it to job things)
      – your passions: what makes you feel fulfilled (again, don’t limit it to your job)
      – what you need from a job: pay, benefits, hours, location, culture, etc
      Then, consider how these things could intersect in a way that means you get paid. Obviously most people can’t make a living on their passions alone, but you might find a job that’s better aligned. Maybe even an organization whose mission somewhat aligns with your passions, or a work style that vibes with you. I don’t know.

      In any case, wishing you the best. It’s a weird world to navigate.

    12. I'm Done*

      I very much hate working but I realized that I like the comfort of being able to pay my bills and have money left over to pay for the nicer things in life. I decided that if I had to work then it had to be a job/career that compensated me enough (in the six figures) to make it worth my pains. I went back to school got my Masters and found something that is tolerable and pays me enough. Because working sucks but working and just getting paid peanuts when you hate every moment is just insane.

    13. anon for this page*

      Good talking point, especially the reply from Weaponized Pumpkin.

      I’m in an adjacent boat, in that I’m starting to come to grasp with long-held attitudes and make them answer, are you holding me back instead of supporting me, though? And a lot of those attitudes were born from a place of self-protection, so it’s hard to see them as wholly negative. There is a similiar theme of ‘don’t let yourself be run into the ground’ combined with resentment at having to shape life around my job, my marriage and relationships around our jobs. But I’m starting to believe it is costing me in real terms, and that perhaps Future Me would appreciate a little bit more… Effort, from Current Me. Luckily, I’m in a job with rewarding moments and I am retraining myself to chase those rewarding moments as motivation to get through the days where I’m stuck thinking everything is unfair by some degree.

      I’m sorry I have no solid advice, but I wish us both luck in finding if not joy, then neutrality or at least to start less negativity in our work lives.

  83. JustAnotherAnalyst*

    I was hoping for some advice. I have been with my current organization for over ten years. I am a high performer. The organization offers high-performing employees several types of ways of professional leave to advance their career. Professional leave is taken at a host organization. One type of leave is with a similar organization (typically in a different country). let’s call it Option A. Option A comes with a generous relocation package because a set of organizations have agreed to exchange their staff in this ways, both for business requirements and for professional development. Option B is with a host organization that is not covered by the agreement. Option B usually entails a pay cut and has only very modest relocation assistance. I had initiated the discussion about Option A with my manager. They seemed supportive. Their support is required because typically managers make the arrangements with the host org. Because I have a family, Option A is much preferred. Option B would put great financial strain on me and the absence of relocation services would add further stress. My manager knows this. However, they have proposed a placement under Option B. When I mentioned the disadvantages compared to Option A, they became angry with me. I am really on the fence. The proposed option B is still a good placement. If I were unattached, did not have a house or a family, I would take it. However considering the impact on my partner and children, and our finances, I might have to decline. I am afraid that manager will get even angrier when I do that. Manager is an irascible person, to put it mildly. I should add that Option B would move us closer to some of our family, but not close enough to visit often. I really crave a change from my current org and role, to allow me to grow professionally and expand my network. But I want to stay at my current org in the long term. How can I negotiate? Or should I just stay and forego Option B?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      You need more information. Is it possible for you to have a productive conversation with your manager about this? If so, try and figure out why Option A wasn’t offered to you. Maybe you need more credentials, or they have too many people going this year, or your manager doesn’t have time to arrange it. Then work on addressing those barriers so you can have Option A. If there’s no way you can get Option A, try and see if your organisation will work with you to make Option B viable for you. Maybe there’s a temporary bonus or housing stipend they can offer. If your manager won’t discuss this with you, I would consider going over their head to their manager.

  84. FED UP*

    Rant time: Speaking specifically for office jobs here. When are employers going to start understanding that “quiet quitting” is a phenomenon because we’re freaking *tired*?? Life is NOT just work. 40 hours per week is just unreasonable. With the huge gains in productivity thanks to technology, making us do 40 hours/week is utterly pointless, especially because wages have *not* kept pace with how much more work we do (not to mention increased COL and inflation). We just keep expanding work to fill the space of 40 hours and it leads to more pointless meetings, endless deliverables, and miserable humans. I’m so, so tired of it. If only stocks and crypto were still doing well, I’d be making stacks of cash and hoarding it away for retirement, but I can barely even save a few bucks from my paychecks every month.

    Argh.

    1. Trying to Change*

      Haha this sounds like me. I feel like everyone on this blog is a hyper-productive high achiever who “only” works 50 hours a week, and I’m not even sure 40 is necessary – I used to have a 35 hour a week FT job and we also managed to keep the lights on. I feel like so much of office life is made up work anyway.

      1. FED UP*

        Amen to that! So much of office jobs is just corporate BS, pointless trainings, and busy work. When will it END!!

        1. Trying to Change*

          I’m afraid to read that book “B*llshit Jobs” because I’m afraid it’ll confirm what I already believe and kill any last vestiges of my work ethic.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I hate that term, because employees aren’t quitting at all. They’re doing the required work.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        The more accurate phrase I’ve heard is “work to rule”. If you’re paid for 40 hours of work, you do 40 hours of work. If the amount of work given isn’t actually doable in 40 hours, then it goes back on management (as it ought to) to figure out how to get the work done. (Reduce workload, approve and pay for overtime, hire more people, do it themselves, some combination of the above)

    3. Betty (the other betty)*

      “Quiet quitting” is a bs term for “doing your job.” If an employer needs an employee who goes “above and beyond,” they should have that in the job description and pay accordingly.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Because there are too many variable. For example, the “wages haven’t kept up” talking point. The problem is that businesses and labor are both victims of the current banking system where zero interest rates just created asset bubbles and caused inflation. Your manager is also dealing with it. No one is doing anything to spite you. Also many jobs in the past were pure revenue losses, so yeah, getting rid of them is technically a “gain” but it’s not actually money in the bank so can’t be distributed in higher wages elsewhere.

      And in some jobs, 40 hours a week doesn’t feel like a lot. I sat in 4 hours of discussions yesterday on the “way things are.” TBH it wasn’t that taxing for me. Then I did a few organizational things and fixed a code and suddenly I’ve been at work for 10 hours and I felt fine. Not every job is an energy vampire.

      Also the “keep expanding work to fill the space of 40 hours” is true in some places but not true in others. For every task that feels like a time filler, there were two times I was excited that we finally got down the list to finish a project that had been on the back burner for months that saved us a little bit of money

    5. Skippy*

      I’m right there with you. This week was the first week since the beginning of May that I didn’t have to stay late and work beyond 40 hours and it was wonderful. At home with my family I felt rested and energetic, and at work I could think so much more clearly and I was actually far more productive.

  85. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    What is a weird thing about your place of employment. Especially if it is something you got used to and forget about until you have a new employee.

    Mine is that the way the toilets are installed, if you are on one in the ladies room and someone in the mens room sits down or stands up from the mirror image one it is like you are on a see-saw. It is not an insignificant change in height.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Back when we had an office, it was which of the elevators or stairs got you to which floors. The building was a maze of interconnected offices, some floors required badges to get on, some to choose the buttons, some elevators opened in the front, some in the back. Some of the stair wells would trap you on emergency-exit-only if you forgot your badge, and none of it was clearly marked on a map. It was great for walks when it was raining, because you could travel a meandering path through basements and offices, but only if you knew which doors would and wouldn’t take you to the next section.
      Actually, now that I think about it, that’s been true of half my places of employment, and only some of them have been at universities. I’m apparently drawn to jobs where there are secret tunnels to other buildings.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        My company has general office buildings in other states with secret (or not so secret) tunnels to other buildings! I guess it’s because of weather – people can use the tunnel if it’s cold and snowy outside.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My office is in an old, renovated industrial building. Brick walls, wooden floors that are a little wobbly. When they turned it into office space, they put in a bunch of floor-to-ceiling glass walls for small meeting rooms, surrounding the main open-floor-plan space. There’s one glass wall, between the kitchen/copy area and the main floor space, that wiggles whenever you walk by it and the floor flexes. The squeak of 2 pieces of glass rubbing against each other freaks me out, and I expect one of them to shatter unexpectedly when I’m walking by. Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time.

    3. Tired of Working*

      At a previous job, we were on the 23rd floor. When I took the elevator up in the morning, if there was someone on the elevator who got off at the 22nd floor, the elevator would proceed to the 23rd floor, but the door would not open. Instead, the elevator plummeted down to the main floor. The building personnel knew about this, and I was told to try and try again to get to the 23rd floor, and that I would eventually get there. I finally figured out that if someone got off at the 22nd floor, I got off too, and I walked up the stairs to the 23rd floor.

      When I went home, I had to walk down to the 22nd floor to get the elevator, because when I rang for the elevator on the 23rd floor, it would come, but the door would not open.

  86. Me Seventeen*

    Alison talks a lot about having the capital to push back on things. My question: How does one know how much capital one has?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I think that’s very dependent on workplace culture as much as anything else? If your workplace has a tendency to track favors and such, then you can keep track of how helpful you’ve been vs how much other people have helped you. If you’re in a more informal culture, it can be based on how important you are to the ongoing success of your team. ‘Capital’ is just a way of defining the energy people are willing to expand on your behalf, to fulfill your need or request, it’s rarely something truly quantifiable.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      This is a fascinating question!

      I think a lot of it comes down to how liked, respected, and known you are at your workplace and perhaps in your industry. Capital is kind of like a compounding interest investment – it will probably take a little while to acquire your starting capital (in my workplace, maybe a couple years?) but can build over time and through careful “investing”. Investing in quality work, investing in pushing back only when needed, investing in saving your complaints for a hill worth dying on, investing in your workplace relationships, and investing in tackling issues as a shared team.

      Do people seek your ideas or advice? Is your good work noted and recognized? Are you able to be the person that “takes one for the team” in speaking up or pushing back? Do your coworkers see you as approachable, competent, and helpful? It’s hard to know for sure, but those questions might help decide how much capital you have and how much you’re willing to spend.

    3. ecnaseener*

      It’s not specifically quantifiable, but it’s basically defined by how much your boss or the company values you, so I would start by thinking about how many times your boss or someone else with standing has praised you or thanked you (not just in passing, in a “big deal” kind of way) vs how many times you’ve gotten negative feedback (again not so much for little things in passing) and how many times you’ve “spent” capital by asking for something difficult.

    4. RagingADHD*

      It’s more a social thing than a business thing, in terms of figuring it out. That’s because even in well-run businesses, people don’t just make decisions based on numbers and rules. They also make emotional /irrational decisions based on things like relationships or philosophy, and then justify the decision with numbers and rules.

      If you translate that to your personal life, think about throwing a party or asking for a favor, like people to help you move. Who would show up? Those are the people with whom you have capital. That little assessment you did in your mind is your “social capital” calculation.

      So, once you know what that feels like, you apply the same type of thought exercise to your workplace. If you asked for help or suggested a change, who would be most likely to take your side — or at least hear you out and really consider it? Those are the people with whom you have capital.

      If you have capital with people with influence or official authority, then your capital is multiplied by their capital.

    5. just another queer reader*

      I think of it as how much respect and sway you have, or how many favors you can ask before people get annoyed at you.

      It’s also kind of the concept of “pick your battles.”

      If I am new, always show up late, barely get my work done, and am rude to my coworkers, my boss and coworkers won’t really want to help me out or do me any favors.

      If I’ve been there a couple years, do good work, and am easy to work with, then my boss would probably be happy to do me occasional big favors, cut me some slack, or take my input seriously.

      But I can’t think of a straightforward way to know exactly how much capital you have!

  87. I don’t post often*

    Super dumb question.
    How does one find out safe business travel methods in big cities?
    I do not like to travel in my personal life. I go to the same places on vacations and prefer vacations on the beach with a book. :)
    I’m from and currently live in a smaller town. No Uber no grocery delivery. We do have take out delivery but only since the pandemic and it’s wholly unreliable.
    I’m being asked to travel to chicago and will likely go to New York and potential Boston next year. How do I know if I can Uber everywhere? How do I know if the public transit exists and is safe for the locations within those cities is safe and travels to where I need to go? Or if I should rent a car? Or which airport to use?
    I’m travel stupid, which is ok, but now it’s impacting my work a bit.

    My company does have an online travel booking service with preferred hotels BUT just because a hotel is listed as preferred doesn’t mean it’s somewhere I want to stay..

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If you’re traveling to sites that are often visited by people in your office (e.g., clients or other branches of your company) you could ask them for their recommendations and perceptions while you’re setting up arrangements for traveling. It’s a nice bonding thing, and the “hosts” are probably happy to share their recommendations.

      If you’re going to conferences or trainings, the organizers will likely have recommendations as well.

      Odds are that the recommendations from the booking service will be safe and appropriate for most business travelers. Maybe take their word for it on the first trip, and then adjust expectations based on your experience.

    2. Roland*

      All of those cities have public transit. If you are working a job that just requires going to Business Offices for Business Reasons, transit will be full of other Business People doing Business Things while you’re using it so there’s not really a safety concern. They will all have cabs and rideshare, and I’d recommend getting the details of which rides they will and won’t reimburse.

    3. PollyQ*

      Don’t rent a car in NYC or Boston–they’re both notoriously undriveable cities. Public transportation is generally safe in both of those places. I lived in Boston for 16 years and never once had an issue on the T or any other public transportation, and I’ve visited NYC and had no problem there either. Uber is very, very common in big cities. You should have no trouble whatsoever getting one when you need it, although you may find that the subway/T is quicker, due to traffic.

      Many of your other questions can now be answered by our friend, the internet. Subway maps and even schedules are available online. Boston just has the one major airport, and while NYC has 3, the most convenient one for you will depend on where you’re staying. I would expect whatever your company’s preferred hotel is will be fine, and wouldn’t bother trying to find something different unless it’s not at all close to where you’d be working.

      tl;dr — There’s an awful lot of scaremongering about big cities that just isn’t accurate. Do a little online research, ask your colleagues, and you’ll be fine.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Generally, for business travel the areas of cities you will be traveling to/from/around (airport, hotel, office, nearby restaurants) are all safe. You may find cities uncomfortable: There are lots of people! And cars! All going places! They’re usually pretty loud. But that does not mean they are dangerous.

      Seconding PollyQ’s point that which airport you use in Chicago and New York will depend on where in those cities you are going. Ask your coworkers. “Hey, I’m traveling to the Jones site in Chicago next month. Should I fly into O’Hare or Midway?” Likewise, you can lean on your coworkers for basic tips like “which hotel do you stay in when you go to Boston?” and “should I rent a car when I’m in NYC?” (going to agree with PollyQ here that you should avoid the car rental in Boston and NYC if you can get where you need to go on public transit).

    5. Alex*

      Safe is really subjective, but it’s very unlikely that you will be sent or directed to stay in any “bad” neighborhoods, because those neighborhoods are not generally business centers. That goes double if you are doing something like attending conferences–conference centers are generally in centrally located downtown business centers.

      Google maps is your friend. Google maps has the locations of subway and even bus stops, so you can look up the nearest stop to your location. Subway websites also have trip planner functions where you type in your location and your destination, and it will tell you what transit options you have and the schedule for each. Google maps can also show you the location of airports and their proximity to your location, although you can also google something like “flights to New York” and choose all airports, and it will give you options for all airports in New York.

      And you can definitely Uber/Lyft anywhere in any big city in the US or Canada.

      Definitely don’t rent a car in any of those three cities! Driving is hellish and parking is worse.

      1. mreasy*

        Good point. I love driving in NYC but I am a crazy New Yorker lol. Boston drivers and traffic are TRULY my idea of hell.

    6. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I travel a lot for work to cities by myself for trade shows. I’m usually the first arrive and last to leave. Generally, cities like New York, Boston and Chicago have pretty well known areas that are safe to stay. If your company works with travel site, ask them!!!! Mention you are going solo and want a safe area. If your company has offices in a city you’re going to, ask the local office admin or executive admins as they generally keep lists of good places for clients and such. I also stick to one major hotel chain, like Hilton or Marriott, both for accumulating points and for knowing they’re typically in better areas of town. Always read the hotel reviews and look at the surrounding neighborhood.

      Airports: My company dictates this due to flight prices, and it’s usually the biggest airport unless you definitely know different because of your end destination not being in the city or something. Check the map if you think this might be the case.

      Bigger cities will have Uber, and you shouldn’t have an issue if staying within the city for most of your trip. In New York, there are plenty of regular cabs (easier/faster than Uber in the city) and you can get an App called Curb to request and pay for taxis. If you’re landing and driving out to a customer, plant site, or expect to be driving around visiting locations, you’re best bet is to rent a car. Like, I fly into Atlanta to visit our one office site, but it’s actually 30-40 minutes away from Atlanta so I rent a car and stay out near that office. But if I stay in Atlanta for a trade show, it’s Uber.

      Don’t worry! You get used to it. You’ll be traveling like a pro in no time.
      I also take with me a portable travel door lock (get it on Amazon) and a small plug-in night light for the hotel bathroom because I hate waking up in pitch dark room I’m unfamiliar with. I’ve traveled for years now, and never had any bad incidents.

    7. Henry Division*

      I’ve lived in big cities my whole life, and if you’re going on a work trip, you’re likely staying in a Downtown area which generally has safe public transit. Agree with everyone else: don’t be afraid to ask co-workers what they recommend! I would honestly avoid

      1. Henry Division*

        (Cont, no idea how to edit) * taking Ubers everywhere in NYC, as the street traffic is terrible. The subways in NY and Boston are pretty safe, though definitely ask for directions if you need it – they can be confusing, especially on weekends. I personally don’t love busses but they’re also generally perfectly safe. There are some areas I would steer clear of getting out at – but you can check those with co-workers or hotel staff.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      There are a lot of resources for travel in any city. Even Googling “what’s the best way to get around Chicago” will pull up resources. Or “transportation in Boston”. But the short answer is that all of these cities have Uber, and if you’re traveling for business, it’s highly unlikely that your business will be conducted in an especially unsafe neighborhood.

    9. mreasy*

      You can use Uber and public transit in all those cities. If there are specific areas to avoid public transit, ask your colleagues in those locations. For a work trip, will your company be covering transport costs? That makes it easier to use Uber.

    10. Maggie*

      Honestly most professional business isn’t really being conducted in terrible neighborhoods (I live in Chicago). If you’re worried just Uber everywhere. And if you get someone and it feels weird or you’re uncomfortable you can call a car and leave. Although these are large cities that tons of people live in and we aren’t all murdered on the daily. Your conference hotel isn’t going to be in the middle of a bad neighborhood. Google maps transit directions are very good in Chicago. However if you’re concerned just Uber everywhere and expense it, that’s totally normal for me when I travel for work.

    11. Nitpicker*

      I suggest starting by picking up a guidebook for the city you’re going to. Assuming you’ll be working in the center of the city, this won’t be much different from the tourist areas. The front of guidebooks usually covers things like hotels, public transportation, restaurants, the airports, etc. A good one will also tell you what the unsafe areas are.
      You’ll likely be in a hotel close to where you’re working. In that case, you can just walk. I’m a New Yorker and we walk a lot!
      And if you do get to go to any of these cities, you might be able to squeeze in some sightseeing! Maybe schedule the trip next to the weekend even if you have to pick up the cost for one night yourself. There’s a lot to see in the city centers. Boston especially is very compact.
      This is going to be a Good Thing! Enjoy it!

    12. just another queer reader*

      Good advice in this thread! Yes, you can Uber or Lyft everywhere in those cities. Public transit is a good option too (check Google Maps and also the local transit agency – CTA for Chicago).

      If your coworkers have traveled for business before, you can ask them about your company’s norms: is your company ok with paying for Ubers for all travel? What is the typical daily food budget? (My company says $50/day.)

      Hotels: If you’re there for a conference, there will probably be a specified hotel nearby the conference location. This hotel will cater to business travelers and be very nice. If you’re there to visit a client or similar, ask your coworkers what hotels they recommend. My company usually goes with the Hilton Garden Inn, which is very nice but not over the top. I recommend making sure the hotel is smoke free, if that’s your preference. (Most hotels are.)

      The business districts are safe. You’ll still want to be street smart. In crowded and unfamiliar public places, like airports or the subway, it’s wise to keep your wallet and phone close to your body, and have the things you need (credit card, transit pass, ID) easy to retrieve so you’re not fumbling with your wallet for thirty seconds. Keep your belongings close and keep an eye on them. Be alert; don’t go around drunk especially at night. When traveling, some people keep their money in a money belt/ pouch or in a bra or hidden pocket. I really don’t think it’s necessary in this case, it’s more of an international travel thing, but it’s an option.

      If necessary, let your credit card company know you’ll be in a different state. I’m not sure if they care anymore or not.

      People in large cities often come across as rude or brusque. Typically they don’t acknowledge strangers on the street/ bus/ etc. I’ve heard it explained as: when you’re living so close to so many other people, you have to maintain some semblance of privacy when in public, and you do that by keeping to yourself.

      I’ve visited all three of the cities you mentioned and have had a lovely time there. I hope that your travel goes well and you gain some new experiences! All the best.

    13. I don’t post often*

      Thanks everyone! These are great ideas! Interestingly enough, I realized while reading these responses, that when I typed safe my brain was actually thinking “familiar/ know exactly what’s going to happen”. Which… I can’t possibly know. I’m going to do a lot of map studying and googling to prepare. Thanks again

    14. AcademiaNut*

      I would say that company preferred hotels are likely to be generic business hotels. They won’t be wildly exciting or unique, but will be comfortable practical and used to dealing with business travellers. They’ll also have a safe in the hotel room to stash your passport and other valuables.

      For public transit – this has gotten *way* easier in recent years with google maps. Type in “how to get from X to Y” in google maps, choose the public transit option, tell it when you want to arrive or leave, and it will give you a complete itinerary. If you’re nervous about public transit, I’d say take Ubers most of the time, but if you’re crossing the centre of the city, particularly at rush hour, the subway is often much faster.

      Safety wise, there are neighbourhoods that aren’t safe to walk though by yourself, but if you’re going to a conference or something like that, or in the business district, it’s less of an issue. For pickpocketing, don’t have your wallet/phone easily grabbable (have them inside a zipped purse that’s strung across your body rather than in a back pocket, and don’t leave the purse unattended or easily grabbable). If I’m not sure about something, my go-to is to ask a woman at the hotel reception if going to X area at a certain time is safe (men will often be totally oblivious to environments I’d find uncomfortable).

      Particularly when I’m travelling alone internationally I have photocopies of important documents stashed somewhere other than the originals, and will have an under the clothes waist belt with my spare credit card or bank card, so all my cash options aren’t in the same place. This is less of an issue when travelling domestically when you can get help more easily.

    15. University Schlep*

      I honestly find cities that are public transit heavy, like NY, feel safer because you are rarely alone, they might be strangers, but you are walking or taking the subway with a bunch of people just living their lives. Safety in numbers feel at any time day or night.

      I found LA kind of creepy because it is such a car culture that even mid day the sidewalks were deserted.

  88. i'm bossy*

    I’m in charge of putting together a Parental Leave policy for the very small office that I work for. I am not a parent, and no one in the office is one (yet) either. I’m wondering if commenters that have experience with Parental Leave would be willing to share how much time off have people wanted/needed in the past, and what your expectations for paid vs unpaid time off are?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      We offer 12 weeks maternity and 6 weeks paternity (we recognize other parenting set ups – just putting it this way for simplicity) – paid. We also allow an additional 4 weeks unpaid. We haven’t had a ton of folks use the policy yet, but all have maxxed the paid time off and a few have also used the unpaid extension.

    2. New Mom*

      As a soon-to-be mom of two, I would say to offer as much time off as possible. I’m in California so I get 4 weeks before birth and then four months after birth but it doesn’t feel like enough. The babies are still so little at that point and putting them in daycare when they are so small is scary and expensive. I don’t remember where I saw this quote but employers should realize that as soon as an employee has a kid and then returns to work, they having to pay money to keep their job (childcare costs during working hours). Our daycare costs for two kids with be more than double our mortgage for the “cheap” local option.

      Employers don’t realize what an amazing retention tool good parental leave is. I’ve stayed at my job because I don’t want to work somewhere that has less parental leave. Also, if there is flexibility to allow the parents to work remote for a few months after leave ends it really helps ease people back in. Let people tack on vacation and sick leave at the end (my employer does not allow and it’s so frustrating).

      Even if you have a room for pumping (which you should) it’s still gross and uncomfortable for women to pump at work, especially before the baby is six months old. Unless there is a sink and a fridge in the pumping room, they will need to carry their pump parts around the office and wash them in a communal place a few times a day. And 30 minutes for pumping isn’t enough when you factor in putting everything together and then taking it apart and cleaning the individual pieces each pump session. I was so relieved to be at home after my first leave due to the pandemic and not having to deal with being covered in breastmilk at work.

      Good luck with the leave plan and it’s awesome that you are asking parents for input!

      1. PeppermintTea*

        Yes to the pumping! It was so awkward having to carry my pump parts around and wash them in the break room sink. With my first child, I had a huge oversupply of milk and needed to pump at least 4 times during the work day. I was fortunate that I had my own office and was not hourly, so I could do that, but it was still such a pain. I do not miss those days of being all milky at work and paranoid that everyone could smell my milk. :(

    3. This Old House*

      Honestly, I think 4-6 months maternity leave should be the bare minimum. I’ve dropped a 12 week old baby off at daycare for the first time, and I’ve dropped a 9 month old baby off at daycare for the first time, and I will NEVER do the former again. (I fully recognize what a privilege it is, in this country, to be able to say that.) I was lucky to be able to afford to take a longer maternity leave even though it was unpaid, but I think that maternity leave should be paid, at least for the first few months, so that everyone who needs it is able to utilize it.

    4. PeppermintTea*

      I work at a state university, and so I got the standard 12 weeks FMLA, which was paid for by my available PTO. Thankfully I had enough PTO to cover it, but that’s because I’d been working there for 5 years. Please don’t make people “earn” enough PTO to pay for their leave. Just pay it, if you can.

      Second, while a leave longer than 12 weeks would have been great, what I also needed during that time was flexibility with my schedule. I pumped, and had to work around child care schedules, and it was really tough. Mentally I was ready to go back to work at 12 weeks, but my boss being strict about my start and end times was frustrating. My daycare was legally unable to keep children past 5:30pm, so I had to work out a weird schedule in order to pick the kiddos up on time. And I was still expected to perform at my highest level, despite being very sleep deprived and having no energy. I really could have used some leniency – not everyone is going to perform at 100% all the time.

      I realize you are asking about a leave policy, but I just wanted to add that new parents and people with caregiving responsibilities just really need some grace and flexibility even after the leave period ends.

    5. not a mom yet*

      I am personally hoping to have my first kid next year. I only get state mandated leave (12 weeks) which is good for the US but I am going to be asking for 20, and for a part time schedule when I return. Not sure I’ll get it but that’s what I want! 12 weeks and your baby might not be sleep trained yet…my best friend almost crashed her car driving to work when her 4 month old wasn’t sleeping nights yet. She was breastfeeding so her husband couldn’t just wake up for her.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      I’m in Ireland, so if you’re in the US, it’s likely very different there, but here, things are pretty much standard across the country. Maternity leave is six months paid and there is up to another 16 weeks can be taken unpaid. This is all by law. Paternity leave is pretty poor here, at least by law. There is only two weeks. I am not sure if various employers give more than that. As well as that, parents’ leave gives each parent 7 weeks of paid leave that can be taken at any time in the first two years of the child’s life and there is the option of parental leave, which is an unpaid leave that can be taken any time in the first 12 years of the child’s life.

      None of this affects anything else like sick leave or vacation time. It is additional to those.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I (mother) took 4 months and my husband was home for 3 months due to a perfectly timed COVID furlough, and it truly felt like the perfect amount of time. Obviously pay as much as you can, but unfortunately no one is expecting the entire leave to be paid because the US hates mothers. I was in a state with a state-level paid family leave program so we were both compensated about 2/3 of our usual wage, with continued insurance coverage from our employers, and it felt reasonable.

    8. i'm bossy*

      Thank you so much to everyone who has replied so far, this is incredibly helpful! We have one person at the office who is in the process of adopting who said that they probably would need *two weeks*…. Even I knew that was not enough time but your comments have confirmed that!

    9. Pocket Mouse*

      Please, PLEASE make the policy gender-neutral! There’s no reason to say ‘maternity’ when you’re talking about the birthing parent, and there *is* reason to normalize all parents (of any gender, birthing or not) having available and supported in taking ample leave should they wish to.

    10. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      As much time as possible, really. 12 weeks is a sad excuse for a bare minimum. For my first baby I actually quit my job wanting more time than that (plus I was bored with that position, etc.). For my second baby I took FMLA and my employer made it as frustrating as possible to actually use it. The paperwork was so confusing and when I asked questions the HR people were not helpful. I wanted to come back part time at first (please make this an option) and trying to schedule that was also confusing. Also, don’t force people to spend their sick time on turning the unpaid leave into paid. If anyone needs sick days, it’s the parents of a baby who just went into daycare for the first time.

  89. Annie*

    Anyone ever hired someone kinda radical into a more conservative environment? We just interviewed someone who seems like a great fit, but I am concerned about bringing someone into an environment they may not be happy in.

    1. Nathalie*

      I think as long as the candidate is aware that it’s a conservative environment you should let them make that decision for themself. I seriously considered turning down my current job because of how conservative the company is, but I wasn’t getting other offers and the pay was good so I decided the trade-off was worth it for the financial security.

      1. Observer*

        I think as long as the candidate is aware that it’s a conservative environment you should let them make that decision for themself.

        Yes. If this person is good enough for you to hire, then they are also old and competent enough to make their own decision.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      The fact that you even know they are “radical” is a huge problem! Did you address their online presence in the interview?

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think all you can do as the employer is to be very clear about the culture of the office and the fact that the culture is not likely to change. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say to them “you seem politically misaligned with this group” and you certainly can’t decline to hire them based on perceived political leanings, but I think it would be appropriate to have another quick phone call to “share more about the culture” and just describe what the environment is like, who tends to thrive, and who tends not to do as well. Even if it’s not about politics so much as “our staff are primarily long time professionals and we keep a subdued, business formal demeanor. People who have historically thrived here have embraced the traditions of our field, but we’ve seen people who wanted to push for change not feel as at home.”

      That way you’re giving them all the information and leaving the decision whether to self-select out in their hands.

    4. Observer*

      What do you mean by “radical” and “conservative”? How do you know they are “radical”?

      I’m not being snarky. To illustrate with 2 scenarios:

      Politically conservative staff who don’t really talk much about politics, and you are interviewing a member of Greenpeace, and you know that because you went digging on the internet and figured this out. That’s not likely to be a problem.

      Staff are extremely change averse and the most common reason to do, or NOT do something is “we’ve always done it this way / we’ve never done that before”. Interviewee told you that they think that Facebook should never have abandoned “Move fast and break things” and that change is always good. This is going to go about as well as oil and water, or maybe like throwing some gunpowder on a fire.

      Obviously these are extremes. But think about how far about the staff are vs this interviewee. And how much it’s likely to come into the workplace.

      1. Annie*

        So I know they’re a little more radical because they are in my social circle and I’m more radical. I have my own ways to justify working for a more conservative company (NOT MAGA conservative, I personally could not handle that given my own views, more like libertarian) and sleep at night. For me, I’m a refugee of an insanely abusive, cultish, life-ruining nonprofit whose values exactly matched my own and I personally find that a for-profit environment where people let you keep your personal life out of the workplace is much safer for me as an actual gay, mentally ill person. I was very open with the candidate about what the culture is like, that a lot of people don’t wear masks, etc. In the interview, what came up was the concept of equity. They said equity in pay and treatment is really important to them. My boss explained that we base things on merit, not equity, and the conversation was very respectful on both sides. For my part, I highlighted that we frequently give merit raises, we benchmark to make sure we’re paying market or above, and that when we have a good sales month, we get bonuses. Everyone did an excellent job of being professional and honest. I think the right thing to do is to just make the offer and see if the candidate wants to accept given what they know of our culture.

        1. Observer*

          It sounds like they have all the information they need. So, yes, make the offer if everything else looks right and let them make their own decision.

          Just as you have your reasons they have their reasons, and it’s no one’s place to decide which reasons are good enough and which aren’t. Hopefully, their reasons will lead them to the decision that’s best for them.

          1. just another queer reader*

            +1. You’ve given them the information, and they can decide if it’s the right fit.

  90. New Cat Mom*

    How does everyone keep track of tasks that were verbally said to you or emailed to you and then buried in your inbox?

    I have no trouble keep track of my routine tasks or tasks attached to a larger project but lately I’ve had small tasks dropped on me by my manager (things like “Write a post for X” or “Create a form for Y”). I’ll write down the tasks but then it gets lost in the hubbub of other work and next thing I know, my manager is asking me what happened to X or Y and I’m left thinking Oops!

    Advice appreciated!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      1. Post-It Notes. I have a fancy Post-It dispenser that I love, and it makes me more likely to use it. I have a dedicated space on my desk for Post-Its, and they help me remember that this is a task I need to complete before I can throw the note away.

      2. I put tasks in my Outlook Calendar. Even if it’s not a meeting or something that needs to happen at a specific time, I block off an hour or two for “work on event flyer” so I get the reminder. If I don’t have time to work on it right then, I move it in my Calendar to another day so it’ll ping me again.

      1. just a thought*

        I put things on my calendar. I just mark them free and put them for when I know I’ll have time to do it

    2. ecnaseener*

      I have one central task list, instead of just leaving myself notes all over the place. EVERYTHING that goes on my task list gets a deadline, if it doesn’t have a real deadline I’ll make one up of a few days or a few weeks or whatever. Nothing is allowed to be just “whenever I get to it.” (Each task also gets an estimated amount of time to complete, and I keep the list in a spreadsheet so I can sort on those values — but that’s all bells and whistles.)

      1. CharlieBrown*

        This. Having one list with EVERYTHING on it means you only have one list to keep track of. I use Excel (see my comment above) so I can index and organize and color code things as necessary. It works great for me.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        This. If there are times you’re away from your list, set up a system whereby items get added to the list asap (such as marking to-dos that get assigned to you in meetings a special way in your meeting notes, and transferring them as soon as you’re back with your list).

        I also recently expanded my inbox subfolder system, such that anything outstanding staying in the inbox, and anything completed or without an action item for me gets filed.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Emailed: I inbox-zero, so it stays in my inbox until I’ve done the thing. (And I hate not having zero, so I do the thing ASAP to get it out of my inbox :P )
      If I get something verbally or in Teams: it goes on my calendar, either as a calendar appointment or a task, but either way it has a pop-up reminder and a specific time attached to it.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      OneNote!!! I have a running to do list in OneNote that has everything, and then as I complete tasks I check them off, file them in other OneNote notebooks, etc. I also use this list to send regular updates to my manager to keep them informed.

    5. Alternative Person*

      Page a day diary.

      It gives me a good consistent overview of what I’ve got going on, that way smaller tasks can be fit in around bigger ones. I also schedule certain tasks for fixed days and group similar tasks together. It helps keep me focused.

  91. Haunting Past*

    Sort of an awkward question.

    I’m thinking of changing jobs because my current employer has decided that we will resume mostly in-person, but with commuting, gas and food costs and childcare it just isn’t going to work for my family. My commute can be as long as two hours a day, especially during peak hours.

    Anyway, a job opened up that sounds interesting and it’s with an employer I respect and would be interested in working for but my connection to the job is a guy I was friends with in undergrad. We lived in the same dorm for three years and were always friendly, and I thought of him as a really nice person though we weren’t super close. Well, at one of the end of the year parties where everyone drank a bit too much we ended up sleeping together. It was just random because I had never felt interested in him prior, or afterward, just thought of him as a nice person that I had lived with and was sort of friends with. He also did not express interest in dating before or after the night. Nothing nefarious happened, I think it was just a spur of the moment thing.

    I’ve seen him a few times in group settings since then (it was over 15 years ago) and we’ve always just been friendly like before, nothing flirtatious at all. But my hesitation is that if we worked together it would somehow come out and if there was even the slightest possibility that he would tell someone at work I would not want to work there.

    I don’t know how to bring it up with him but I feel like I would need to know ahead of time that he wasn’t going to say anything. Can I even ask this without it being horrendously uncomfortable? I don’t want to offend him by implying he would bring it up, it was also so long ago, but it truly would be a dealbreaker for me if this was something that would come up at work. I don’t know, even typing this out I am cringing. It would be a great employer and I would not be reporting to him but we would be in the same larger department if I were to be hired.

    1. Everything Bagel*

      I don’t see how you can reach out to him and say Hey I want to work there but you have to promise not to tell anyone we slept together. I think you have to assume he’s an adult and wouldn’t mention something private like that to anyone at work.

    2. Bess*

      I think that you are putting a lot of weight on something that doesn’t seem to have been significant for either of you, and is also 15 YEARS ago. If your contact is a terrible person maybe they’d bring it up but it sounds like such old news and no indication that they’d be inclined to bring it up, that it’s essentially an imaginary problem at this point. This is all SO hypothetical, I would not create this one dealbreaker obstacle that is unlikely to even happen, before you even try for the job.

      1. Haunting Past*

        I think the reason I’m so paranoid about this is that I had an old high school friend do this to me, we had kissed maybe twice when we were like 14-15 and NEVER dated. Fast forward to when we were 29/30 I had just moved back home and was hanging out with him and a larger group of friends pretty frequently and he just announced it in front of people one night and I was so confused and embarrassed and then he did it again IN FRONT OF MY HUSBAND and I pretty much saw red. I pulled him aside and just demanded why he was bringing it up because it almost seemed like he was trying to embarrass me but I really couldn’t figure out why. He stopped after that but that experience has made me weary and wary.

        1. PollyQ*

          First, that guy was an outlier, and second, he did it in a social situation instead of a work one. I think the odds that it’ll happen a second time, where it would make your friend look massively unprofessional, are pretty low.

        2. Observer*

          If someone is trying to embarrass you, they will find something. On the other hand, most people don’t do ridiculous stuff like this. Expecting everyone to repeat the weird and inappropriate behavior of one person is not going to server you well.

        3. Annony*

          I think most people’s reaction to that was to wonder why he is bringing up a teenage kiss 15 years later. That’s really weird and makes me wonder if he literally hasn’t had a date since. It is highly unlikely that your college friend would say anything. It would be incredibly inappropriate and would make him look bad. He also probably doesn’t even think about it. Most people move on from a one night stand that happened 15 years ago.

        4. AnonyMouse*

          I think it’s a super different situation – a group of old friends joking about kissing/dating in high school, vs. two people at work who haven’t seen each other in years. It would be very, very odd for someone to mention a one night stand at work 15 years after the fact.

          I really don’t think that you have to worry about it – and I definitely think you would make him feel uncomfortable if you brought it up. It’s better for everyone to just pretend it didn’t happen and if asked how you know each other say yeah, we knew each other in college.

    3. EMP*

      It sounds like this was a big deal to you, but for most people a one night stand when you were single and in college is just not a big deal. I highly doubt this coworker would mention anything about this at work but even if he did, in most circumstances outside of strictly religious employment I can’t see this mattering to anyone at the office.

      I say this with kindness, but I wonder if you could use some therapy around this? It strikes me as unusual that just thinking about this (again, totally normal college hookup) 15 years later is so uncomfortable for you.

      1. Reba*

        agree, I think this is looming *much* larger in your mind than it would even register for anyone else. I think it’s super unlikely to come up at work, and it’s not salacious gossip or anything.

        Based on your other comment, Haunting Past, in which you describe reacting really strongly to something that strikes me as quite innocent…I can guess that High School Dude brought up the teen kiss in like an obnoxious way, but it simply doesn’t reflect badly on you whatsoever. People have pasts, it is normal and common to have had romantic and sexual partners who are still in your social orbit. It just seems like this strong reaction (or fear of it) is more limiting than it needs to be. Sorry if this is overstepping, just my thoughts!

        1. Ins mom*

          I agree. Did some fairly embarrassing things in college myself, you need to stop giving this so much room in your brain

    4. RagingADHD*

      You want him to not make it weird. And you don’t want to be the one who made it weird by bringing it up.

      I think if you truly feel you can’t proceed without some kind of reassurance, you could perhaps reach out to him and ask “Would it be weird if I applied there? I wouldn’t want our ancient history from graduation year to affect anything.”

      However, I would encourage you to apply without asking if you can bring yourself to do so. He’s going to say something or not say something according to his own character, not according to anything you ask. If he never brought it up with your mutual friends, there’s no reason to think he’d bring it up at work.

  92. stitchinthyme*

    A common theme on this blog is young people entering the work force for the first time who don’t know anything about workplace norms and need to be taught about them. This has always really puzzled me, because it seems to me like most of these rules (such as showing up on time, calling your boss if you can’t make it in, dressing appropriately, being polite to customers and coworkers) should be basic common sense. I mean, I got my first job (in retail) when I was 16, and I don’t remember anyone ever telling me explicitly that I couldn’t wear ripped jeans, or that I needed to call if I was sick; these were just things I already knew, and I also didn’t see anyone else my age struggling with any of them. Same when I started my first office job after college; whatever I didn’t know before, I picked up pretty quickly by observing those around me, and no one ever had to admonish me for not following the workplace norms.

    Now, I am well aware that people have different backgrounds and are exposed to different things growing up, but my own origins are far from upper-class, and my family was very blue-collar. Still, workplace expectations like “don’t use foul language” or “call if you can’t come in” don’t seem like they should be that much of a surprise, even to someone who’s new to the work force.

    I guess my question is, how in the world do people not know at least the basics of workplace behavior before they start their first jobs?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I don’t think it’s a blue collar vs white collar or poor vs rich household situation. I think it really comes down to how people are raised/taught by those around them (at home, school, etc). Things like responsibility, respect, etc.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think there are two basic factors that control how people pick up workplace norms. The first is: are people exposed to professional work environments? And the second is: how sensitive are people to picking up norms through exposure?

      So there are people who can start a retail job in high school, see that none of their coworkers are wearing ripped jeans, and deduce that ripped jeans are not OK. There are also people who can start a retail job in high school, see that other people are wearing jeans, and figure that ripped jeans are jeans and therefore OK. Or people who don’t notice what anyone else is wearing, or people who think “I’ll wear XYZ until someone else tells me it’s a problem; if no one says anything then it’s not a problem.”

      I think part of what is frustrating for experienced office workers (especially those who were/are able to absorb norms through exposure) is that not all new-to-the-office workers require the same kind of coaching around norms. If everyone were able to pick up norms by just observing, then there would never be a need to tell someone “hey, you need to call the boss if you’re sick and can’t come in.” And if everyone needed to be explicitly told all of the norms, then there would be big “Office 101” lectures held by HR to spell out everything from call-outs to dress code to how to answer the phone. But as it is, some people can intuit the office rules and others need to be told explicitly and that explicit telling happens in an ad-hoc manner, as situations arise.

    3. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Ah well, you’d think that diving into a two foot deep kiddie pool, or refraining from setting off a firecracker placed atop your head would be “basic common sense” but humans have the infinite capacity to lack the common sense gene.

    4. Bess*

      Everybody has to learn different things in their first few jobs. Some people come in really needing basic norms spelled out to them. Others come in very attuned to norms but have a high level of entitlement, or are great with punctuality but bad with dress code. Depends on what they were taught at home and school, but also depends somewhat on how attuned they are to this or that kind of thing. Some people really need a manual and explicit policies for things like this.

    5. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Well, the past few years have seen oil tankers of ink spilled writing things that are very pro labor and sometimes veer into so-called anti-work. You could have graduated a few years ago and worked in a corporate job without every going into an office. That’s why people don’t know norms.

      If you look online there is a huge anti-company pro-worker stance. Which I guess is fine in some cases, but is so unhelpful when younger people need help.

      And since 2020, everyone is being reminded they can switch jobs for a huge raise, so I could see not even caring about norms anymore.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      I think “different backgrounds” go WAY beyond income or blue-collar versus white-collar and I something think those things are emphasised when other issues are more likely to cause problems. With regard to basic things like being on time and dressing appropriately and so on, it may be less to do with the family’s income background and more to do with the functionality of the family. If your parents never had you in school on time because they were too drunk to get up or you never had any boundaries because your parents were, for whatever reason, unable to care for you, then social norms may be less familiar to you than they would be to somebody from a functioning family.

      Then there are also cultural issues and disabilities. For example, “foul language” has been used in every workplace I have been in. Heck, a principal I worked under joked to a teacher, “would you ever *insert curse* off?” when the teacher pointed out a mistake in the meeting times (people who needed to attend a meeting together were not available at the same time). I’m not saying people should curse at work, just that different workplaces have different levels of tolerance for it and what contexts you can curse in differ from one workplace and one culture to the next.

      And then there are issues like autism that can have an impact on people’s ability to interpret social norms.

    7. Girasol*

      Some things are common sense but some are based on the difference between school culture and work culture. School dress codes might not reflect work ones. In school if you’re sick, you bring a note the next day explaining absence; you don’t call first thing in the morning. School culture is one of fairness controlled by grownups, so it’s almost understandable that Alison is often asked, “My rent went up so I should tell the boss I need a raise, right?” as if life not being fair should be solved by the nearest authority figure. And while some kids are mature at working age and don’t need much coaching, some are still pretty self centered and not very good at considering the perspectives and needs of others.

    8. mreasy*

      The people I find least likely to know workplace norms (and things like, how to do laundry!) are those who grew up in wealth and didn’t have jobs until after college…

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        That occurred to me too. I have wealthy relatives who didn’t really work until they were well into middle age and had started burning through their inheritance. In their 30s, as young parents, they’d do things like being half an hour late collecting their kids from school, because they had no concept of timekeeping. So yeah, when some of them started running out of money and had to get jobs, I expect they had no clue.

    9. just another queer reader*

      I think there is a lot of variation between people! Talents, skills, emotional intelligence, etc.

      As a teenager, I was a straight-A student but not the best employee. I was forgetful and slow and didn’t understand the priorities of my role, but I was very nice to customers!

      Also, rules can vary a LOT between workplaces! Some jobs I’ve had the start time mattered a lot; sometimes it didn’t. Dress code varies wildly.

      Nobody is born knowing this stuff; we all have to learn it. Some of us just learn it a little later than others :p

  93. Laurel*

    I’m about at my wits’ end with one of my coworkers.

    For the entire six months or so that she’s been here, she continues making the same mistakes over and over and she works incredibly quickly (not in a good way). I’ve mentioned it before — albeit perhaps not as direct as I could have been, as I don’t enjoy confrontation and back then she’d only been here for a relatively short time — and of both his own volition and my requests, my manager had brought it up with her as well. Yet nothing has changed. I don’t know whether she legitimately thinks she’s doing better or she isn’t listening, but either way the result is the same. To top things off, my manager quit a few days ago so I no longer have that recourse.

    This impacts my job, for one. I spend an hour and a half to two hours every night going through all of her work to fix everything. We work for a newspaper, so if I didn’t do that in an effort to make her mistakes more visible to higher-ups, for instance, it would reflect incredibly poorly on our company and have wide-ranging effects. I used to only have to spend maybe half an hour looking through pages when either my manager or one of our previous employees worked, rarely having to make any fixes at all because they actually paid attention.

    What can I do? I’m not her boss, so I can’t order her to be better, and somehow I doubt she’ll take kindly to me “pestering” her. This situation is to the point where twice now I’ve broken down crying (not in the office, fortunately!) because of how frustrating and never-ending this is.

    Please help!

    1. Nathalie*

      Once a new boss comes in you should explain the situation to them and how much extra time you’re spending fixing things. It doesn’t seem like you have any power to force the new person to improve but you can lobby to get the extra work taken off your plate (ideally the new boss should be responsible for it if the mistakes are so major it could have the effects on the company you described) or at the very least get this person on a PIP or something.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Why are you mentioning a new boss? Am I just blind today? I don’t see a mention of a new boss

        1. Hlao-roo*

          There’s no explicit mention of a new boss, but Laurel did say “To top things off, my manager quit a few days ago so I no longer have that recourse.” So hopefully there will be a new boss soon-ish.

      2. Observer*

        No, they shouldn’t wait for a new boss. And they shouldn’t ask for things to be taken off their plate. They should explain the situation to whoever is in charge, and then ask which things they should be taking care of – Their normal duties a, b and c or fixing CW’s work?

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      This is bad and you aint helping. You either need to escalate now or stop helping. Yes, letting loads of errors go through always has impacts. People need to learn that. But the thing is, they aren’t your fault. As long as no one gets hurt, stop fixing the new hire’s errors. And you will have to backtrack a bit and let you manager know you’ve been basically doing part of their job

      1. Everything Bagel*

        Agreed. I’m not sure why you’ve put it upon yourself to solve this. Did someone tell you to do this? You should immediately go to whoever you’re supervisor is now and tell them that this has been happening. Why haven’t you said something?

        1. Laurel*

          Proofing is part of the job description. Which is absolutely fine. It’s the fixing every single page of hers that has multiple errors on it that she’s been asked to pay attention to before that’s the issue.

          I don’t really have a supervisor right now. There’s a guy who took over scheduling, and the only other person next in line would be my boss’s boss, the absolute last resort not only because this sort of problem is below his pay grade and because he works days and we work nights and he’s not familiar or involved with what’s been going on.

          I haven’t spoken with him yet because as I mentioned in my post, my boss quit only a few days ago, and in our exit meeting he said he would again speak with her. I thought I’d give it a couple days to see if things changed after that, but they haven’t, hence my posting on here.

          I guess it didn’t come across in my post, but I haven’t been doing nothing about this. I just wanted advice as to what people think would be the appropriate next step, ideally without having to do the nuclear option.

          1. MJ*

            Can you return them to her to fix? Just “Oh, you’ve sent me the unedited version. Could you please fix the errors and return it by (deadline)?”

    3. Observer*

      Bring this to your boss’ boss. And then stop fixing mistakes you can’t fix in a reasonable amount of time. In other words, do NOT work 1.5 – 2 hours extra each day to fix her problems.

      You say it will have major repercussions for your employer? Well, that’s not your problem. That’s your boss’ problem. He quit? Well then whoever is on top of that position needs to deal with it.

      As long as you don’t have the authority or power to actually fix the underlying problem, it’s not your responsibility to pick up the slack.

      And start looking for a new job.

  94. HBJ*

    Our small business is looking at hiring our first employee. I’d like to take a class(es) on the nuts and bolts of having an employee/growing a small business, especially my state-specific (remote is not an option). I’ve looked at the local university and community college offerings, and all their business offerings seem more focused on the high-level/planning/ethereal side of a business – marketing, 5-year planning, strategy, growing, leadership, etc. What I’m looking for is the nuts and bolts of running a business – this is what you have to do legally when you have an employee, this is how workman’s comp works, this is how you should be keeping records, this is the type of data/expenses you should be tracking (employee related and in general). I don’t need or want the high-level, CEO, visionary, “head” type stuff. I want the nitty gritty how to. And I’m not sure where to look. I think I’m just going to have to go start going through my state’s labor website and reading the state statutes, but I really wish I could find a class on this. Suggestions of where to look?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you tried checking with the SBA, or finding a local incubator/networking group? Even the business school at a nearby university may have good resources for this.

      1. HBJ*

        Oh, that’s a good idea. I don’t know if there’s much for SBA here, but maybe the Chamber of Commerce could also help. I haven’t called the local university or community college yet, just looked at their course offerings.

    2. LuckySophia*

      When i started my small business, my lawyer & accountant gave me that kind of guidance (both had their own small businesses, so lawyer explained need to have a written employee manual at least outlining broad policies regarding vacations, annual reviews, benefits, general policies). Accountant gave me a written list of *all* the banking/bookkeeping/taxation stuff pertaining to payrolls…withholding for Federal, State & municipal requirements, Unemployment fund, W-2 forms, etc.
      Once we started having more than one employee, the accountant also recommended we use Paychex (or equivalent) firm that would handle all that stuff for us, and print out W-2 forms etc. Your City and/or State websites (for tax reporting, business licences, and/or Dept of Labor) should also have info on some of the requirements. I have also seen people recommend “SCORE” (I think) which is an organization that can offer business advice from retired executives.

      1. HBJ*

        We don’t have an attorney. We do have an accounting firm that does our taxes, and they’ve given some feedback on our record keeping. I might ask them if they have any resources for payroll info. I know we could outsource payroll and such, but we are not going to do that at this time. I realize it might be easier, but I’m willing to learn this, and we don’t want to pay for it right now. Most of what I’ve learned so far is on a need-to-know basis. So we have the various business licenses, of course, and pay what taxes we need to.

        1. LuckySophia*

          We did our own payroll, and worker’s comp, and withholdings and such, when it was just one or two employees. After that it got to be too much to add to the Office Manager’s already full plate; that’s when we bit the bullet and hired the payroll service.

          If you are going to prepare an employee manual, I really would advise running the final draft by a lawyer, just to be safe. But maybe if there’s a local chapter of SHRM, you could contact them and find out if any of their members could provide initial guidance on a volunteer or “paid freelance” basis, as to the content that would be advisable.

      2. Nitpicker*

        SCORE is actually associated with the SBA. Both are really good and incredibly helpful. Among other things they do specific 1-1 counseling. So please try and check them out. If they aren’t physically near you, maybe you could use Zoom or something similar.

  95. Giraffes*

    In my one-on-one, my manager told me I’m too assertive towards my coworker, that they sometimes get the impression I’m telling my coworker what to do. Then my manager said it was just their impression and said coworker hasn’t said anything about my assertiveness.

    When I pushed for examples of what my manager meant by my assertiveness and for when they felt I was telling my coworker what to do, I was told that it was maybe in the way I say things, that I should phrase things in ways like “Have you thought about” or “I suggest you.”

    I’m left feeling confused and bamboozled by my manager’s comment. Mainly, I have never thought the word “assertive” would have been associated with me due to my shyness and introverted personality but also because in my end-year review I was given the feedback of “look more into assertive communication.”

    For context, my coworker and I are in different roles but our work often overlaps and requires collaboration for many projects. We also often give each other feedback and I know there have been times when we disagree on certain things but we work through them or circle back for further discussion. Many times, we’ll often defer to each other based on whose project it is or based on if the decision falls on one of our areas of expertise.

    In case someone thinks gender may be a factor, my manager, coworker, and I are all cis-women.

    1. Giraffes*

      Hit the submit button too early! I’m wondering how to handle this feedback, and it leaves me feeling like I just shouldn’t speak in meetings anymore involving my coworker and manager.

      It’s been a few weeks since I’ve recieved this feedback and I’m still processing.

      1. LaDiDa*

        Your coworker hasn’t said anything, so this is just an observation from your manager. It is likely that they are the one with the issue of your communication style. I don’t know if you are female presenting, but if you are, this is a common bias. Men think women should be less direct and put filler and softening words or phrases in front of their ideas and knowledge. I wouldn’t change a damn thing.

        If you are concerned and have a good relationship with your colleague you can ask them “It is was brought to my attention that some people think I am too assertive when discussing my opinions and thoughts. I would like to hear your feedback.”

        Also, assertiveness isn’t a bad thing. Men don’t get negative feedback on being assertive.

        1. LaDiDa*

          Sorry I missed that last line about Cis-gender women. It is a common bias that women need soften things. I would still ignore it ;)

          1. Trying to Change*

            Yeah it’s just as common for women to buy into gender stereotypes honestly. Your boss being female doesn’t necessarily protect you from this accusation. And God forbid a woman is BIPOC.

    2. Angstrom*

      Is your manager significantly older? Is she from the “ladies are always pleasant” era?
      I’d push back by providing examples of the good working relationship you have with the coworker, including the way you work through disagreements.
      If something like “I need you to complete task x by time y” is seen as “too assertive” by your manager, you have my sympathy.

      1. Trying to Change*

        I would specifically push back on the thing about “in my end-year review I was given the feedback of “look more into assertive communication.”” – was this the same manager who said this? Did she remember it? If I was a supervisor would give an employee a lot of leeway that had been *told* to be more assertive – in fact I wouldn’t have corrected her on a matter of judgement like this, although I might say more about what kind of communication I was looking for.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I think your manager might be a crazy-maker. Is this the first or only instance of conflicting feedback?

  96. Orange Crushed*

    Earlier this week my manager told me that he was going out with some interns that helped us on a project over the winter and he hoped that I could join him. He didn’t tell me the time or place, just that it was on Wednesday. I was in meetings all day and didn’t see him. He never told me a time and place.

    I emailed an intern yesterday and asked if he took them out. She replied yes, he did.

    Well I think the intern told my manager because he called another manager on his day off and they were talking about how I asked if they went out. Technically I was invited or sort of invited. I don’t get it. Did I do something wrong? What’s the big deal?

    1. PollyQ*

      You didn’t do anything wrong, and it was probably just an accident on your manager’s part that he forgot to give you the details. I would let it go and not say anything to anyone else at this point. You’ll learn something about your manager based on whether or not he apologizes to you, though.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Is there a reason you asked the intern instead of your manager?

      Asking an intern instead of your manager could be interpreted as trying to stir up drama. Your manager was the one who (sort of) invited you, after all. I don’t think what you did was egregiously wrong, but if you wanted to know if your manager took the interns out it would have been better to ask him directly.

        1. WellRed*

          I guess in this case, I might have followed up the interns response (“yes, we went to lunch”) with something like “ sounds fun, sorry I had to miss it” so as to sound politely interested and a non sh*t stirrer and then let it go.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      Did you have the opportunity to ask about the place and time in the moment, or could you have figured the it out by looking at your manager’s calendar? Is there a reason you didn’t ask for details or otherwise close the loop on Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning since you hadn’t heard by then? From what you wrote, the timeline of him asking if you could join in relation to the Wednesday outing is not clear, nor is it clear from which day it was that you were in meetings all day and didn’t see him. If that was Wednesday, would you have been able to make it anyway? If not, could you have let your manager know at the time he encouraged you to join the outing? Echoing Hlao-roo somewhat, why would you ask an intern today about Wednesday’s outing instead of asking your manager yesterday or next week?

      The intern, your manager, and at least one AAM commenter (talking about myself here) have now in one way or another expressed confusion based on what you’ve said or not said, and/or to whom. I don’t mean to be rude, but you might want to take a look at whether your communication tendencies around timing, target, and content are setting you up for successful communication in general.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Sorry, re-reading I see you emailed the intern yesterday, not today. In that case, the question becomes why not ask your manager at the end of the day Wednesday (in case the outing was actually after work) or when he was back in the office? Also, emailing an intern makes it seem like A Thing more than if it was slid into a casual (spoken) conversation. I don’t think it’s necessarily a big deal, as you termed it, but I feel like there must have been *something* you could have done to make this whole sequence of events just… not confusing for yourself or the people around you, and it’s worth taking a look at what you could have done differently to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.

  97. Chirpy*

    I just want to say: to any management or corporate people out there, paying for employees’ dinner one day DOES NOT make up for having us stay late (3 hours later than our normal hours of operation) for a special Labor Day sale. On a holiday celebrating workers. Especially when everyone at corporate gets a full 3-day weekend.

    1. Trying to Change*

      I hate when “free pizza” is supposed to compensate for a lack of overtime wage. That trick works ONCE for a rare situation only! My old employer tried to get away with routinely making people work holidays for no other benefit than some free slices and it did NOT go over well.

  98. Chickaletta*

    Looking for some advice for a friend who I just learned yesterday is in a crappy situation at work. Aspects of it have been covered by AANM before (https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/i-was-promoted-but-my-boss-wont-tell-anyone.html, https://www.askamanager.org/2011/06/where-is-my-promised-raise.html) but if anyone knows of other times it’s been addressed on this site I’d love to get those links too.

    The basics: Friend is in his first real job post-college, absolutely loves it and lives and breathes work. This is not a problem for him – he’s young, single, and working in a field that is his passion so he is happy with this. He’s also apparently well-liked and very good at what he does – after only a few months he got promoted to a more desirable team and made head of his department! The problem is that apparently none of that was made official – he still has his old title, his new position hasn’t officially been announced, and he’s being paid at his old salary. In addition, he’s still doing his old job in addition to the new one. It is causing problems in credibility with the people he works with, who don’t understand that he’s the head of his department yet, and obviously, his not being paid for the work he’s doing is a problem too. He has not signed any paperwork stating that he’s accepted a new position, and I would have advised him to never start working his new job without doing that but I just learned about this yesterday (he got promoted two months ago) so what’s done is done.

    He’s talked to his boss about it, but they just don’t get around to fixing it for whatever reason. His boss isn’t very good at what he does and he has his fingers crossed that he might not be around for long, but that doesn’t fix his problem now. He also says his HR department is incompetent, so he doesn’t feel like they would fix the problem either (not sure what he’s done to work with HR though, so I wonder if there’s still something he could do to get them to fix this).

    The good news is that he’s developed connections with other companies that would love to have him, so he has the option of leaving and accepting another job elsewhere (he’d have to move out of state, but again, being young, single, and a renter, this isn’t a huge burden for him). However, he’d like to stay where he is as he really has a passion for the mission of his current organization. Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      He needs to talk to HR but Honestly, your friend would be better off accepting that he hasn’t been promoted and stop doing the extra work (I’m actually confused how he’s doing the work and playing dept head if no one else knows) before his coworkers think he’s nuts. I’m also sceptical a fresh graduate who was just hired has been promoted to department head already unless it’s a bad place to work ) which it sounds like it might). Passion for the mission don’t pay the rent.

    2. asteramella*

      “My promotion to head of department hasn’t been made official and it is causing some issues [describe credibility issues and how they’ve been impacting his work]. Since it’s been a couple of months, I’d really like to get this finalized in terms of job title and pay. I’d also like to work on a timeline for handing over my [old job] tasks.”

      If the boss or HR hems and haws, your friend has his answer: he hasn’t really been promoted, he’s just being “allowed” to do 2 jobs for the same pay—all the work and responsibility with none of the pay or authority.

  99. Science KK*

    Yesterday someone at my job went around and told everyone in our building she was rage quitting, then did it. Now we are having an unplanned last-minute lunch meeting, of course on a super busy day where I ran out the door with no lunch.

    Will update with the saga.

    1. Gumby*

      I’m afraid I cannot give her full marks for rage quitting. Taking the time to run around telling everyone you are rage quitting before actually quitting seems quite planned out. To be a truly effective rage quit there needs to be less forethought before emailing/yelling/spelling out in cod your glorious GBF. It should seem like an uncontrollable impulse. Full marks for difficulty but several deductions for execution.

    2. RagingADHD*

      That’s not a rage quit, that’s a flounce she was trying to leverage for maximum drama.

      I hope you wind up getting some lunch. Nobody should have to deal with drama on an empty stomach.

    3. Science KK*

      So I got more context and more importantly, lunch.

      I did a pickup for myself and two coworkers, literally ran to my car, picked it up and came back.

      There was a different meeting yesterday that I did not attend where the quitter bailed at literally the last minute, like people were already there waiting. This was addressed and then some other things were brought up regarding some other things/changes going on in our building. Q somehow found this out and assumed it was about her, came to do some last things, while refusing to speak to or acknowledge any of our bosses. At some point she quit (not sure where in the timeline exactly these things all happened, only know the meeting was first). Several people tried to tell her to at least apologize or not burn bridges, which she maintains she didn’t, and screamed at people who were like well maybe this was a rash decision (I witnessed this part).

      Today, we had a meeting where they basically said this is what we meant, we thought it was clearly a different situation, and are looking into ways to address the communication break down/lack of trust in the workplace. It was very awkward and tense and I’m sure I made it weird shoving food in my face while this went down.

      Most of the people who were friends with this person stared at the ground/looked upset. I’m hoping this is the end of it. I haven’t asked any details or anything because frankly I have my own problems and don’t wanna get dragged into this lol.

      I’m hoping this is over but I have a feeling it won’t be.

      1. asteramella*

        You did not make it weird by eating, they made it weird by having a meeting at a time during which people need to eat!

  100. By Golly*

    I manage a team of 11 llama groomers. We’re the only llama groomers in the organization, though there are other animal groomers in other departments. Recently, I had a pretty big blow up with my supervisor, the Director of Animal Care, that most people agree was not my fault. He, FWIW, has a pretty bad reputation as a manager, and was not my previous manager’s boss. The end result was that he held my annual review in a coffee shop (I’m actually thinking so he couldn’t be recorded), berated me and threatened to shut down the llama grooming program all together. I immediately called my (not quite–kind of lateral) great-grand boss (because grand boss has proven he is not interested in managing the issue and great grand boss was aware of the situation and asked me to keep her in the loop). And then… crickets. Until this week, when Director of Animal care starts telling my direct reports that he’s no longer going to be my boss and we’re moving the the Department of Llama Research. Still, no one has spoken to me about this. I manage a pretty large team for our organization, and there are number of reasons moving departments would be complex and difficult (but, I actually do think it’s the right move! I’m happy to do it, but we can’t do it on a dime, and it will take some planning!).
    And so, the big question: Is this normal? i’ve never been a manager before, but it seems to me like this kind of decisions shouldn’t be made without the manager’s input? And then… don’t worry–I’m looking for other work! But I’ve only been in this particular position a year. How would you answer a question about why you were leaving (and why your current supervisor isn’t a reference!)

    1. By Golly*

      Didn’t mean to send it quite yet! (My previous manager of 12 years is a reference! She’s been nothing but supportive in the whole process and very helpful.)

  101. Justme, The OG*

    This may be a weird etiquette question. I feel like I’ve lost all sense of everything since COVID.

    There is a luncheon I am required to go to next month for a scholarship I get. It’s the third time I’ve received the scholarship but no luncheon because COVID. When I RSVP’d for it, I said that I had some dietary restrictions. I basically just need to know if I need to eat beforehand. Was the RSVP email the wrong place to do this?

    1. By Golly*

      I think it was the right place! I’m guessing this is an email to an admin type person who will be handling a lot of the logistics and will be able to answer your question. Hopefully they will answer back with kind and helpful information, but if they don’t, I think it would be ok to call or email again in a week, or 2 or 3 days before the event (probably whichever is sooner).

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Yes, it’s to the admin doing the logistics for the lunch. It’s not until October and I RSVP’d early. But there’s been no response since I emailed four days ago.

        1. Observer*

          So in a couple of weeks email the admin and basically say what you said here “As I noted in my RSVP, I have some dietary restrictions, so I need to know if you can accommodate them or I should eat before the event.”

        2. Yarned*

          Four days is nothing! Don’t worry about it. At this point they’re still gathering the RSVPs. If you don’t hear anything by a week before the event, that’s when you follow up. But I’m sure they’ll be in touch in a few weeks.

        3. PollyQ*

          No response the week before Labor Day for something that’s still a month+ out is nothing to worry about. Observer’s advice sounds like a solid plan for handling it. I’m going to nitpick @By Golly’s advice and say that 2-3 days ahead of time isn’t enough lead time. I’d say they need your restrictions at least a week before the event.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I say this as a professional university fundraiser (aka the people who work with the donors who created the scholarship) – you absolutely did the right thing! They should have included a way for you to indicate you needed a dietary accommodation.

      Did you tell them exactly what you need or just that you had restrictions? If you told them (“I’m vegan” or “I need a gluten free meal” or whatever), then I would just check in when you get a reminder about the event. If you didn’t spell it out, I’d send another email clarifying what you need. They might not be closely looking at the RSVPs yet but there’s no excuse for them to not provide food you can eat!

    3. RagingADHD*

      Yes, that was the correct place to indicate it. They should reach out to you while they are planning the lunch to get specifics.

      If they don’t, contact them a day or 2 before the lunch so you can know whether to eat beforehand.

  102. GiGi*

    I was recently fired from a position for the same reason I was intending to leave, and I don’t know how to discuss it in job interviews.

    To summarize: I was brought on as a receptionist for a growing startup that had never had a receptionist before. I think they just brought me on so they could say they had one. Several coworkers said things along the lines of “Oh, we have a receptionist? We’re really official now!” But it was clear they didn’t need one.

    I spent a lot of time asking my manager, her manager, and a few admins for tasks to do, but I still sat around doing nothing more often than not. While most of the team understood there wasn’t much for me to do, my manager was clearly upset I wasn’t doing “enough”, though she herself didn’t have any tasks for me. After a few months, I started job hunting because the boredom was killing me. But halfway through my search, my manager fired me for, again, not doing enough.

    Normally in interviews, I’d say I’m looking for a new position with active responsibilities compared to this last job, but the fact that I was fired throws a wrench into those plans. So how do I explain on interviews that I was just unlucky enough to be stuck in a startup that got overexcited about having a receptionist they didn’t need?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Is there any way you can contact your previous manager and agree that they will classify it as a layoff instead of a firing? Especially if they have not hired a new receptionist.

      If that’s not an option, or if the company doesn’t agree, can you phrase it as “I was let go because [company] did not have enough work for a full-time receptionist position.” And then pivot to “I was excited to apply to this role because ___.”

      During interviews, companies are far more likely to ask about why you are applying to them, not why you left/are leaving your previous/current employer, because that’s what they really care about.

      1. Chickaletta*

        This is nice wording, and I think it’s perfectly fine to be honest about why you were let go and you can even add that you did try to find tasks to keep you busy. Sounds like you did everything you could! If they don’t backfill the receptionist position, you could probably even word it as “the position was eliminated” and that wouldn’t be totally untrue.

    2. LaDiDa*

      “When I was hired they anticipated the position would have more work over time, but that turned out not to be the case.”

    3. voluptuousfire*

      IMO, you were let go due to a lack of work, not actually fired. I’d qualify firing as letting someone go for cause–insubordination, chronic lateness, or worse. Not your fault they didn’t really think through their need for a receptionist.

    4. mreasy*

      It seems like you were laid off, not fired! If in the US, you should be eligible for UI. Did your manager say whether they’d give you a good reference? I’d connect with them to get in the same page if you can.

  103. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

    Just wanted to thank whoever recommended the book “Hench” a couple of weeks ago on the open thread. I read it and thoroughly enjoyed it.

  104. Bad at Math*

    How well does one need to succeed in math to get a financial degree? I’m considering going back to school to get another bachelors in the hopes of having better prospects and I’ve noticed a lot of companies are looking for people in finance, so I’m curious about it. However math was always my least favorite and worst subject in school, although mostly in middle and high school. I had no problems with the basics, like addition and subtraction etc. lol
    I just wonder if it would be worth my time (and money!)

    1. Pam Adams*

      My undergraduate business program has students taking statistics, business calculus, micro and macroeconomics, plus financial and managerial accounting. This is all the foundation work before getting into your major- specific classes.

    2. Nancy*

      Don’t get a degree in something you hate, especially if it is something you have a difficult time doing.

  105. EmKay*

    I just wanted to share that I’ve completed the probationary period at the new admin assistant job at a local university I told y’all about last March. I passed with flying colours :)

  106. Temporarily Anonymous*

    I need someone to either tell me that this is none of my business or I need to elevate. I am very torn.

    I work for the Federal Government. Everyone in my office receives a Secret clearance. To make a long story short, I just found out an employee was arrested earlier this year. I am not in her reporting structure, but I am a supervisor. When you have a Secret (or higher) clearance, you are required to self-report arrests.

    I have no idea if this person did that, nor should I know. I am undecided if she is the type of person who would do so (my interactions with her are limited). It is possible she did.

    Do I tell my boss (her grandboss)? If it makes a difference: her arrest was for a felony, and ultimately dismissed. This is all a matter of public record, and can be found on the first page of Google results when searching her name. I did confirm on the court website.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Can you ask your boss for guidance, leaving names out at first?

      “Hey [boss], I just found out an employee was arrested earlier this year. I know there’s a self-reporting requirement because of clearances, but do I need to report when I learn of someone else being arrested?”

      Then if you are required to report, you can share the other details you know with your boss (name, charges, that the charges were dismissed). If it’s not a requirement, you can assume/hope that this employee self-reported and put this situation out of your mind.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I think most fed agencies have an ombudsman you can talk to confidentially. Could you start there? Or maybe you can call your org’s ethics hotline anonymously and get some advice?

  107. Spooky All Year*

    How do you start a conversation around FMLA/short term disability?
    This is my first job out of college, been here a bit over a year, and I got knocked down pretty hard with COVID last month. None of the respiratory stuff thank god, but feverish, brain foggy, and exhausted for two weeks. Unfortunately, the exhaustion hasn’t really gone away, and out of the last five weeks I’ve only managed one full week without having to call out. On top of just being too exhausted to work the full amount, the brain fog has killed the progress I was making with focus and executive function (thanks ADHD), so even when I feel okay, my brain refuses to cooperate.
    My manager is lovely and told me not to worry, just to take care of myself and feel okay in calling in sick or telling her when I need tasks that don’t need as much brain power, but I’m already out of PTO for the year. I didn’t even have enough to cover the two weeks out. How do I start the conversation around FMLA or short term disability?

    1. By Golly*

      As a manager, it’s helpful for me if my employee can come in with some idea of their needs. Do you need to work half days? Three days a week? Take 3 weeks off to fully rest and recover? That will likely change the options that are available to you (in my case, short term disability won’t work for intermittent leave). If you have a compassionate and competent manager (it sounds like you do!), I would start with her. If you think it will be contentious, maybe start with HR.
      Another thing: I always tell my employees that FMLA is about not losing your job. in our case (I’m not sure if this is true everywhere–so look at your system!) it doesn’t give you more PTO, but it does protect you from poor performance reviews due to your FMLA related absences. Since you are so new, it is probably worth getting it on file if you can, but, for instance, when I had a staff member need to take a leave for medical reasons before he was eligible for FMLA, I was able to tell him that it really didn’t make a difference, because I am a a rational human being who of course wants him to be healthy and functional and I would not penalize him for his leave. Good luck and I hope you begin to heal!

  108. EMP*

    Is there a work-appropriate way to tell my manager that I find the new hire annoying and would prefer not to work with him?

    the tl;dr:
    I’ve given some constructive feedback already around the new hire needing to take direction better and document his work, but I still feel like I have to babysit him when he’s working on anything potentially customer facing. On the one hand, as a more senior member of the team supervising work from the new guy is kind of my job. But maybe I can gracefully (or ungracefully) duck out of supervising this new hire in particular? I do have some capital to burn but I guess part of me knows this is pretty petty and interpersonal and I should just suck it up.

  109. Prospect Gone Bad*

    I need to implement a new software and they use special names for everything. Think calling taxes “government surcharge” and then they act confused when you use the vernacular term “taxes” which everyone else uses.

    I’m so done with it to the point I am fantasizing about switching suppliers when our two year term is up.

  110. PS*

    Reposting because I was late last week and really need some help.
    I need some advice regarding à big career decision.
    I live in a small city with little job opportunity for me. There are basically only two potential employers for me. I work for one and the second one is my customer.
    I have bien at my job a few years, and getting bored. I want more challenge and responsability. There was a reorganisation a few months ago, it made me realize that I should have told my boss sooner about needing new challenges. When I discussed it with him, he told me he did not know when there would be an opportunity for me.
    I had made my peace with that, and decided to excel at my job while I waited fo an opportunity.
    However, I was approched by my customer and they want me to work for them. I do not know what to do. I LOVE my company. I love the people, I really believe in our mission and I enjoy immense perks (short hours, great flexibility,…).
    On the the other hand, the other company offert more challenge, and a significant raise (30% at least). And it feels good that they believe I can do more.
    I am filled with grief at the idea of leaving my company and with dread at the idea of staying at an entry level job.

    How do you choose between job description and work environnement ?
    The recruter is trying to sell me a job, how much can I trust what he sans about flexibility ?
    How can I advance in my company ?

    1. EMP*

      Basically, you don’t have to trust the recruiter – you can ask for more information and to meet your future coworkers before deciding.

      Is the recruiter just offering an interview or offering a job, sight unseen? If there will be an interview process, then use that time to see if the environment at the new place matches what you have now (or is close enough that the pay bump and increased challenge will make up for the difference). If they are just offering the job straight up (seems unlikely but who knows!) you can still ask to meet with people currently at the job – who your peers would be, who your manager would be, that kind of thing.

      Allison has some great advice on this site about using an interview to see if the company is the right fit for you and all of that applies here!

    2. PollyQ*

      I’d ignore most of what the recruiter says and listen to what the people you’d actually be working with say, especially the prospective manager. As you say, the recruiter is essentially trying to make a sale, but your chain of command & co-workers are the ones who’d actually determine what the job is like.

  111. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    My boss, the best boss in the world, the boss who will never be matched for the rest of my career is leaving her position. I’m overjoyed for her, because I know she has been wanting a change, but I want to cry and beg her to never leave (don’t worry, I won’t).

    In honor of my amazing, soon to be ex boss, let’s get some stories of great managers we have had!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m dealing with this now. My boss, who took a chance on me and was confident I could perform well in a brand-new role, the guy who was super supportive, who was a great counter to my anxiety and paranoia, who never minded my somewhat silly questions, who got all of my super obscure cultural references… he took another role and left me with a guy who spends our 1 on 1s complaining about his workload.

      I have cried over this. I had the Very Best Boss for less than two years and it wasn’t enough. Now I just message him about TV and movies and random trivia, but I really miss being managed by him.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I have my best boss now. I have never felt so empowered and trusted in my entire career and I have always deserved it. Because of him, a job that would normally take the average person, including me, one full year to even begin to know what to do and how to do it–I have just surpassed even my own expectations in just 6 months. He trusts me to be on the radio, on local news, on conference panels, etc. talking about our organization. Now, he has many bad habits that drive me bonkers but they don’t really impact me so much. I get to shine and grow and he just….lets me!

    3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I had a great mentor-boss early on in my career. He genuinely didn’t care if you needed to check out for a few hours for a personal reason. He went to a lot of effort to customize and balance the roles in the department so each of us had mostly things we liked to do. He gave me wings — trusting me with opportunities to take the lead and get in front of executive clients (as a very junior person). When he left, I left.

  112. TechWorker*

    Late and low stakes question!!
    Where I work we have a policy of being in office 3/5 days a week. This I think is genuinely useful, but to some extent that’s by the by! The policy since pre pandemic has always been that if you need to work from home – because of big delivery or say, plumber visiting, that’s fine. We have ‘core days’ where everyone is expected to come in

    Last week one of my reports said he’d be in late, because it was raining (?!?). As it happened the rain died down and he was in before lunch, but I admit my internal reaction was like ‘wtf it’s just rain!!’. Have norms shifted so much this is an acceptable reason not to come in?! Discuss. ;)

    1. fueled by coffee*

      To your second comment: (I’m assuming a situation where your report doesn’t have flex time or some other arrangement) – there are absolutely reasons that rain can cause problems for commuting! Poor visibility due to a torrential downpour, flooded streets, public transit delays, traffic due to car accidents because of said poor visibility, etc. To be fair I would probably expect the employee to mention this rather than just “rain,” but sometimes rain is serious!

      (Also, where is your employee from? I had a college friend from Arizona who had never learned how to use windshield wipers because he had learned to drive in the desert. He used to pull and replace the lever individually every few seconds because he didn’t know that you could have them set to swish repeatedly automatically).

      1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        I can’t quite get my head around that — I assume your friend just didn’t drive much. I grew up in the AZ desert and while rain doesn’t happen a lot of the year, there’s two months of monsoon in summer! You’d have to really be avoiding that.

      2. Camelid coordinator*

        Ha, that happened to me with bright lights! I learned to drive in New Jersey where there are lights everywhere, and it took me a while to learn that you didn’t have to pull the lever towards you continuously to keep them on.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      It really does depend on the storm. Why do we risk life and limb to get to work? Have norms shifted so much that we risk safety and property to get to work? I realize rain may seem like an innocuous reason but rain is actually quite dangerous to drive in. We do because that is the expectation. But should we? I don’t know. I had a boss once reject my reason for not coming in (I was snowed into my own street for crying out loud) and her response was that she would come get me in her big SUV. If the roads weren’t safe enough for me to feel good driving in, I surely didn’t feel safe being driven. We get to determine for ourselves what is safe enough.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I mean, at bare minimum rain can definitely affect your commute. Public transportation can slow down to a crawl, whether because it takes people longer to get on/off with umbrellas, or things are more likely to break down in inclement weather, etc. I know the trains near me barely run on time in perfect conditions, so anything outside SOP absolutely causes delays. And if you’re driving in there’s more likely to be people driving carefully/slower, or accidents from bad conditions causing traffic jams. And don’t forget non-commute based things, maybe their kids normally walk to school and now they have to drive them in, or drop-off always takes longer in the rain, or maybe now the dog walker can’t come so they’re trying to move things around, I’m sure there’s a million more trickle-down delays that can come from inclement weather. And I’ve definitely had mornings where I’ve seen train delays and decided it’s a better use of my time to wait it out, wfh in the meantime, and then come in, as opposed to sitting either at the station or on the train, miserable, doing nothing, and essentially arriving at work at the same time.

      I’m not saying it’s not possible that people use the rain as an excuse to come in late, but coming in late due to the rain isn’t as unfathomable as you seem to think it is.

    4. Annony*

      That sounds weird. Unless it was raining so hard that there was flooding, I would think rain would cause only a small delay. Someone with a long commute coming in half an hour late because of the rain doesn’t seem outrageous. Someone coming in close to lunch is pretty hard to understand.

    5. Roland*

      My public transit commute involves 15 minutes of walking on one end. Not the end of the world, but if I can avoid it by coming in 2 hours later, why not? Keeping a laptop bag dry can be difficult when there is strong wind. It doesn’t feel more disruptive or unusual than working from home until a delivery shows up.

    6. TechWorker*

      No car driving or children in play. Employee in question probably has a 15-20min walk plus a less than 10min train. It was medium-heavy rain – but not a ‘storm’ for sure.

      Rain is common where we live, this occasion was not bad enough to cause flashfloods or public transport disruption, it was bad enough that you’d want an umbrella or raincoat. Employee at least went to secondary school here, not sure where they grew up before that. I got fairly wet on my own 20min walk in :) so I ended up with more sympathy than I started with…. :)

      It wasn’t that disruptive; hence why I didn’t make a deal out of it – but knowing the circumstances it definitely felt like they didn’t want to risk getting wet whilst walking vs any actual ‘danger’. Absolutely not ‘risking life and limb’ :)

  113. hamsterpants*

    I hear this recommendation from time to time. I find it really surprising! Are there workplaces where people really do the exact same thing over and over again? Everywhere I’ve worked, the majority of work was new or at least different enough that writing down every possible case would be a huge endeavor — a full time job of its own. Systems were constantly being updated so notes from a year ago would be hard to apply to today.

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      Definitely, I manage 2 teams and 1 of the teams, does very repetitive work…especially the entry level people. The other team I could not write instructions for.

    2. just another queer reader*

      In my role, some things can definitely be written down or saved in a shared folder: key software, key contacts, standard processes/formats for X and Y. And as a department, we endeavor to keep accurate records as we work.

      But it would be impossible to document it all! That’s why they hire people with relevant backgrounds, train people, and rely on experienced workers to mentor the newer ones.

  114. M313*

    So here’s something I’ve been wondering about for a while. It’s common to advise managers that if they want the people who report to them to know they can, say, actually use their time off without repercussions, they need to model this behavior by using their own PTO (or calling in sick when they’re not feeling well, or whatever). I’ve seen that advice both here and in other places.

    But…has anyone ever seen their boss do something like this and concluded it’s okay for them to do the same? I mean it’s better than the alternative but if I see my manager or the company owner doing something that might be technically allowed but that I know would be a problem in some places, I’m usually going to assume that they can do that because they’re the boss, not that it’s generally okay. Is that just me or is it common?

    1. Chickaletta*

      In my workplace, I think that modeling that behavior works. But it also depends on how the boss treats their direct reports when they take time off – because if they’re contacting their employees while they’re on PTO, or complaining about work not getting done (even in jest), then it can send a hypocritical message. In my previous position, it was made abundantly clear if my team fell behind on their work metrics when people took PTO, which kinda sucked (people still took it, but PTO was a source of contention for the group). Now, in my current job, the bosses are very supportive of PTO and greet us when we come back with questions about our vacation or health instead of asking about work that needs to be caught up on.

      I’ve also learned that PTO is a financial liability accounting-wise, so think of it this way: taking PTO helps your company’s financial position by increasing its net worth. :) My company actually required every employee to take 5 days of PTO during the summer of 2020 when they found themselves in a financial strain due to covid for exactly this reason. A good company doesn’t want employees to hoard their PTO for this reason alone, but obviously, the other reasons should apply too.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think it’s actually about the negative case.

      If the boss rarely takes vacations, and is always online during those vacations, then everyone else will be afraid to take time off.

      But if the boss regularly takes vacations, and is actually disconnected, then that fear element goes away.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Agreed. I’ve been getting occasional emails from one of my supervisors all week, and she’s supposed to be on vacation. Much as I try to ignore it, I can’t help but think “oh she must not have wanted to ask for coverage on all of her time-sensitive work. Maybe I shouldn’t have asked for so much coverage on my vacation. She’s more considerate than me.”

        And like, if I wasn’t getting those emails I wouldn’t actively be thinking “great, she’s disconnected so I can be too” but there wouldn’t be that worry.

    3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Yes, I have. I was suspicious of our generous PTO until over time I saw it being used by my boss. I trust that if she says it’s okay and does it, then it’s okay for me too.

    4. just another queer reader*

      I pick up workplace norms from my senior colleagues and my boss – and also from AAM :)

      And also: I like it when managers are clear about expectations upfront! Especially when people who are new to your team. “As a manager, here’s how I approach time off. I prefer that you give a few weeks notice if possible. When you’re on PTO, I don’t expect you to answer emails – in fact, I hope that you take the chance to disconnect and recharge! In our department, it’s totally ok to take an occasional day working from home if you don’t feel well. It is really important to be around for X and Y if possible, and we expect you to be punctual to Z” etc

  115. Jessen*

    Any tips on dealing with medical-related burnout at work? I’m in a position where I honestly desperately need time off, but I can’t take any because I had to use all my PTO (both sick leave and vacation time) to cover some major medical procedures. So it’s going to take me some time to be at the point where I actually have the option to take time off. I need to be able to stick with this job so I can keep my insurance and have FMLA protection if I need it. But I also am honestly reaching the point where I feel like working 8 hours a day 5 days a week is too much for me to handle on top of everything else, especially when I effectively don’t get vacation time.

    Anyone got any tips for making work, well, less overwhelming? I can’t really point to anything specifically bad about my job, unfortunately, other than that it takes up such a big percentage of my time and available brainpower during the week, and that I feel like 9-5 hours aren’t a great fit for me. But those aren’t things I’m likely to be able to get changed.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Can you afford to take leave without pay? You may be able to apply for intermittent FMLA and work shorter days that way.

      1. Jessen*

        Not easily, unfortunately. There’s also a lot of concerns that managing all the balls I’d have to keep in the air to get and keep and work with intermittent FMLA would negate any benefit I’d get from usign it. I really need a chance to get away from having to schedule appointments around work and do paperwork and navigate endless bureaucracies, and unfortunately FMLA would be adding even more of that in to my life.

  116. ADA Compliance Update*

    So, I’ve had good luck speaking up about ADA compliance at work. It turns out there are two different entities involved, my company and our landlord. Our landlord is stubborn about everything being “ADA compliant,” but as it turns out, they’re not in compliance with state law. So the very worst door, the one that virtually everyone struggles with, is out of compliance and my company is going to make them bring it into compliance. The interior doors that my company is responsible for will be installed by the end of the year. It’s only taken an entire year to fix it. On the bright side, our Operations team are now SMEs on ADA compliance.

    The second issue was that our landlord had slowly taken over the majority of the ADA parking spaces for storage. Like, what? How did they think that was ok? So I complained, loudly and length, to everyone the day I had to park a half mile away to get my rollator out of the car. The landlord immediately moved some things that same day and has gradually moved most of the rest of the stuff elsewhere. We had three ADA parking spaces with 9 people who use them regularly, now we are back up to 16 spaces and will eventually get the rest back.

    I’m glad I spoke up and that it made a difference.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Congratulations, that’s amazing! I’m sorry you had to kick up such a fuss and it took so long, but it’s awesome that you were able to make a change. I bet this will help a lot of people and also set an improved standard/precedent moving forward.

  117. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

    I’m dealing with a juxtaposition involving the same circumstance, and would love some advice about how to keep it classy and professional on my end. Last year, I was asked to apply for a position in my workplace — it was a lateral move, but it provided me with the opportunity to do exactly the job I have always wanted to. It involved redefining the role a bit from its previous iteration, which has been well-received and completely re-energized me professionally.

    The juxtaposition comes in when my fulfillment butts up against Hilda. She has made it very well known that she wanted this position, is unhappy that I got it, and heartily disapproves of the way I’m doing it. She has been verbally hostile in front of peers and leadership, and has been spoken to by one leader, but remains rude and seemingly intent on making my life difficult.

    Here’s where I need advice: I’m not going to change Hilda’s mind. She’s angry at circumstances beyond this position and has been dealt a tough hand in life. What I do or don’t do in this position isn’t going to be what shifts her mindset, and I do believe that 99% of the people in my workplace know her history and pattern of behavior. However, not working with her team would be a detriment to the whole workplace, and I don’t see it as an option to just not interact with her. I tend to take things personally (privately — I handle conflict well in the moment but snide comments worm their way in and eat at me for weeks) and I am dreading interactions. Does anyone have advice for how to professionally deal with someone who hates your guts? Any mantras or mindsets? Thanks in advance!

    1. BellyButton*

      She doesn’t hate you, she hates that you got the job she wanted. It seems personal but she would have felt the same way about anyone who got what she wanted. Does that help to reframe it a bit? It is still annoying and wrong. I would probably say something to her in private “I know you wanted this position and it stings to see some else get it. However, attacking me and the way I do the job isn’t working and isn’t productive for our teams.”

      1. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

        You nailed it, and that’s super helpful verbiage. I’m going to screenshot that and keep it at the ready. Thank you so much!

    2. OtterB*

      It doesn’t sound like Hilda reports to you, but if there’s anything under your control that could help position her for the next job opportunity, you might try to offer it.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Is that a wise move, though? I ask because Hilda is being openly verbally hostile to the OP in front of peers and leadership. Chances are this is not advancing her in the workplace.

      2. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

        Right — she doesn’t report to me; we are complete peers on equal ground. I’m in the only position/role like mine, though.

  118. Aggretsuko*

    I definitely didn’t get the job. Not surprised or very broken up about it–it sounded slightly better than this, but still a total zoo, and it was 100% work in the office again and I’d probably lose my Zoom. At least here I get 3 days at home.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      Boo-ish? Glad you didn’t get it but there can be a certain sort of buzz about turning down a job that is not a fit for you.

  119. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

    Higher Ed folks: I am looking to move towards a new job, and my biggest requirement is to move into an institution that prioritizes student needs, especially system impacted students. Every school says that they do, but then creates or follows policies that make it harder for system impacted students to access their education.

    What is a better way for me to phrase this besides “says that they prioritize system impacted students, and then … actually does”?

      1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        Ooh, I should have clarified: I am trying to come up with a script for the “why do you want to leave your current position” question, or to put a statement in my cover letter that explicitly (and professionally) says what I am looking for. IE, “I am looking to advance my career within an institution that prioritizes the needs of system impacted students … AND THEN ACTUALLY DOES ITTTTTTTs dgkshgsdigkhs”.

        (But, you know, less exasperated.)

        1. Roland*

          I really don’t think you need the “…and then does it” bit in a cover letter. Like, a company who is all talk isn’t gonna read it and say “oh Kitten Party won’t like it here because we’re liars” you know?

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      I am not sure you can spell that out. I think you’d need to suss out during an interview. Maybe you could say ‘looking to move to an institution with a demonstrated commitment to serving students impacted by (issue)’? Or institutional flexibility and openness to policy changes?

  120. Ed Nigma*

    I run a small mom & pop type store. We employ a few of the local teens to deliver newspapers.
    For multiple reasons readership has dropped and it’s reached the point that really I should roll two rounds into one. But this means I’d have to let go of one person and I feel terrible about this.

    It’s not like it’s someone’s livelihood. It’s a very very part time position that literally takes 1 hour per week. Red is younger and has been employed for about a year. Blue has been employed for about 6 years.

    It’s the kind of job that the teens normally age out of when they become old enough to take on jobs with more hours and more pay. Blue is unusual for sticking with it so long and has commented in the past that they might need to quit if they land a job with conflicting hours. This makes me think it might be better to keep Red. But at the same time Blue has been great and reliable at the job and I feel guilty that I’d be pushing them out before they’re ready to go.

    I mean, I could afford to keep them both on, but there really isn’t enough work for two so it doesn’t make much business sense. Any advice?

    1. atexit8*

      This is tough.
      If you kept Blue, Red could leave for greener pastures.
      If you kept Red, Blue could leave for greener pastures.

      1. Ed Nigma*

        Yes, as with all jobs they could both leave whenever they wish to. I know there are no guarantees which is why I’m torn as to the best option.

    2. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      Is Blue ready to take on some other tasks that could replace this one? If you can think of something else they could do so that you could keep them on?

      1. Ed Nigma*

        Hmm, my knee jerk reaction is to say no as I’m not currently hiring, but I’m going to think this one over a bit longer to make sure that’s true. Thank you for the suggestion. Due to their individual quirks I’m not sure that Blue would be well suited to or happy in any other task that I could offer them, but it’s worth giving proper thought to.

    3. MJ*

      Could you ask Blue what their plans are? If they are looking for something else and likely to leave in the next few months it might sort itself out.

  121. Bookgarden*

    I’ve been interested in taking online tech writing courses for awhile, and think I will start soon. My partner (whom I’ve lived with for a long time) is also interested in taking the courses for his job. I suggested we take the class together so we can be study buddies, and he was enthusiastic about it.

    I know from experience that we’d be fine integrity-wise. We wouldn’t help each other beyond what a study group would do, and at most would proofread each other’s projects and discuss what we think the instructor is looking to see. I may be overthinking this, but I’m a little worried about the optics though from the instructors’ POVs. Has anyone done this with a partner or spouse? Did you get the side-eye or did everything go smoothly?

  122. nonnymouse*

    I work at a small nonprofit with no HR and just discovered that my boss is treating me, a WOC, worse, and giving more opportunities to my white coworker who has the same job title and salary as me. I don’t have any hard evidence that it’s based on race and so can’t request a formal investigation from the Board of Directors, but two of my coworkers (including the one with the same job title and salary) have told me about other racist things our boss has done and have assured me that I am treated differently because I am not white.

    I don’t think that I have grounds to sue, so I’m starting to job hunt, but what do I say when I’m looking for a new job? The reason I’m looking for a new job is because my boss is racist but I don’t think that I can say that in an interview. Do I pretend I’m leaving this kind of nonprofit work because I’m just tired of nonprofit work, like “I want to move out of nonprofits and into corporate work?” or do I make it about the job posting, like, “I’m looking to move away from teapot design to teapot product descriptions”?

    1. By Golly*

      “I’m looking for more opportunities for growth in my role.” Then, “I think in this role, i could really grow in X, Y and Z areas.”

    2. TajinExpress*

      First of all, I’m really sorry that you’re experiencing this kind of behavior at your workplace. It’s totally unacceptable. If there isn’t any way for you to comfortably address your boss’ behavior, I don’t think you can be blamed for wanting to leave!

      As someone who has served on various interview panels, I’d say you should stick to making it about the new role you’re seeking. Highlight all your great skills, subject matter expertise, and what you bring to the table. If you’re given the opportunity to ask questions during the interview, that might be the right time to ask about the office culture, promotion practices or training opportunities, and what the company’s reporting structure is like.

    3. just another queer reader*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      Yes, focus on the role: “I’m very interested in teapot product descriptions.” (and of course, share your accomplishments etc) I think it’s ok to say you want to move into the corporate world, but don’t make it the focus.

      I hope you’re able to find somewhere with decent people. Best of luck.

    4. EMP*

      “I’m looking to move to a role where I can grow/take on more responsibility”. You can definitely ask about diversity initiatives and mentorship when interviewing though that may not catch a quietly discriminatory boss.

  123. slashgirl*

    Hope this doesn’t get lost as it’s so late, but it’s late breaking. lol

    Background: our school board recently switched our libraries from a paid library program (Alexandria) to one created by our Tech Wizard (it’s okay except he doesn’t understand our library standards but is very willing to work with us). We had an inservice (PD) day with TW today–and went over what he’d done so far and what we’d like. He’ll be making some big changes next week to the program.

    Yesterday, I’d asked my admin at my larger school if I could have time to work with it next week without classes but she said, “No, let the classes come down and they just won’t sign out.” This was after we’d been assured, via email, that admins would give us time. I can’t concentrate with lot of talking (I do listen to music) plus, I’d have to spend time talking to the students, then shelving alllll the books they take off the shelves, not to mention kids wanting to sign books out. Lets taunt them by bringing them to the library.

    Today, at the inservice, the head of Tech Ed for the board (who looks after library technology), said that it was “recommended strongly” to admins to give us that class free time. Luckily, the president of our union local is an LT–she said if we’d been refused, to ask, nicely, again, and if we’re still told “no”, let her know.

    I asked the Local Pres if I could email instead of talk to my admin (my admin can be intimidating, she’s a bully, and she gets even if you piss her off)–she said that was fine–part of that is that Monday’s a holiday and Admin needs to let teachers know. I asked if I could CC her on the email, then I said maybe a BCC. She said that was fine.

    My problem: I’m torn as to whether to BCC or CC the Local President. I was in the equivalent of PIP the second part of last year, passed, but as I said Admin is vindictive and I worry that she’ll be pissy if she KNOWS I cc’ed Local Pres–“why are you involving the union” etc. It’s not that I want to hide it, I just don’t want to deal with her pettiness/anger (and maybe she wouldn’t be). I’m leaning to the BCC. Anyone have any thoughts/advice? Thanks in advance.

    1. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      I don’t have any advice but I’m gasping in horror that someone thinks implementing a homegrown ILS the week before school starts is not a disaster waiting to happen. Best of luck and I hope your tech wizard is writing great documentation for you.

      1. slashgirl*

        Yes, indeedy. Several of us offered to beta-test/be a resource over our summer break (unpaid, even) but weren’t taken up on it. If we had, the program would’ve been further along than it is–and today would’ve been much more useful. As it was, it was half looking at how the system works and half “what needs to be changed/what do you want?” As for documentation–he’s planning on it–and what he has written so far, while brief, is okay.

        And I was able to sit down with the program earlier this week–and I went in cold and figured out how the majority of things work, but I’m techy inclined.

        Oh, well, whaddya do? (Other than cross your fingers and pray to the library deities things go well….)

    2. Ann Ominous*

      You could also always just forward it to her after you’ve sent it. Or, forward the admin’s response.

      1. slashgirl*

        Ha! The simplest and most obvious option…didn’t even think of it. My brain is still in summer mode….

        I think I’ll do this, thank you!

  124. TajinExpress*

    I very sincerely need some input. I recently accepted a promotion/position as a Director within my company. I’ve been there a long time and crossed divisions to accept the position. This role is new, I’m the first Director of this division, and I’m still finding my way, feeling out the parameters of the role and my own bandwidth. I’ve never directly supervised staff or had direct reports, however, I’ve led plenty of large projects with teams of staff and have a good reputation for being able to work with everyone and getting the job done. I don’t have any direct reports at this moment.

    The issue I have right now is that one of our team analysts (a subordinate role to mine) is being antagonistic toward me when I asked them to share some data with me on a specific project. One specific example: I was asked separately by the VP heading this project to provide input and set a process for efficiently completing the task at hand. The analyst did not provide me the needed data and instead told me to go ask each division. I know the analyst has that data. I also know they were unhappy with the amount of work they had to do to obtain and analyze that data and that they thought I would have that data already available for them at the start of the project request. For background: I had addressed not having the data honestly; being new to the role, I was not aware of the deficiency and that it would be addressed/resolved going forward. I further advised where and with whom they might reach out to to start gathering that data – I recommended they reach out to each division (sound familiar?). The kicker for us both here is that as Director, I would still need to pull this analyst in in order to obtain and help manage that data going forward.

    This isn’t the first little ‘snipe’ I’ve received from this analyst, it’s only that I’ve just realized it’s a pattern. I really would like some support and ideas for how to manage this directly while I’m still in this transitional phase with my role. I recognize that I’m definitely having work growing pains, and that I’m feeling some imposter syndrome. This is the highest level role I’ve held and I don’t want to screw it up. TIA for your helpful input.

    1. Ann Ominous*

      I would be very direct. Polite and open, but not hesitant.

      “Can we talk? When I asked you for the data you have, you told me to go ask each division instead. That seems like several extra steps, and when we talk, your tone makes me think you are irritated. Am I missing something? I see us as needing to work together going forward so I want to make sure I’m tracking any concerns you have.”

      If she says ‘it’s nothing’ then I’d say ‘okay, I see the data as a reasonable request for me to make of you, do you see it differently?”

      Once I had a woman be extremely snippy/curt to me. Nothing blatant, mostly just tone. Finally I asked her when we were alone (not in a combative tone, but rather a genuinely curious one): “did I slam the door in your face by accident or insult you? I get the impression I must have done something like that for you to be acting this way around me”. She seemed really surprised that I asked her, said something noncommittal and forgettable, and afterwards was genuinely nice to me.

      Still no idea what that was about, but being direct in the face of passive-aggressiveness has always worked best for me. And I’m not a confrontational person, so if that is true of you also, practice your words ahead of time so you don’t blank out.

      1. TajinExpress*

        Now I see that I was really struggling with how to approach and phrase it, but you’ve really helped clarify this for me with how you’ve phrased it above. I think I was also having a mental block from a similar past experience that went wrong. This is so very helpful, thank you!

  125. atexit8*

    I was offered and accepted a part-time position at the local TJ Maxx store.
    I went in last Wednesday August 24 and filled out all the paperwork including I-9.
    I was told that when the manager who hired me would contact me when she got back from vacation on Monday August 29.
    She did not call any day this week.
    This is just so weird.
    I guess I will call the store, but is this normal?
    The last time I got a job retail was with Kohl’s five years ago, and their process methodical.

        1. WellRed*

          She might be trying to dig out from being away, she may have had something personal come up and she’s not back at work. Go ahead and call

          1. atexit8*

            I thought that she might not have been back to work.
            My curiosity got the better of me, so I called.
            She’d left for the day.
            Oh, well.

      1. Ann Ominous*

        Being blown off? Does this mean the person wasn’t actually hired or something has changed and they’re ghosting her? Or is it just putting her off because they got busy or are disorganized or forgot?

    1. Alex*

      so normal. It took me two weeks to be hired at my current part-time retail job, and they are absolutely desperate for workers.

  126. Cheezmouser*

    If you had the chance to make it in a highly prestigious, competitive field where you could earn recognition and a ton of money working on extremely high-profile projects with highly creative people, but at the cost of your family, your health–basically anything outside of work–would you take that opportunity? There is no middle ground where you can have work-life balance but still work on plum projects. You’re either the queen bee or you’re a worker bee. Think industries like fashion, sports, entertainment, etc. Would you do it?

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Playing devil’s advocate here: But what if you had talent and potential? How would you deal with giving that up?

        1. CatCat*

          I mean, my options here are “express talent and potential but destroy health and family” or “don’t express talent and potential and maintain health and family.” Between those two, my values are to maintain my health and my family over expressing the talent. It’s not something I really have to “deal with” in a sense because I would be aligning my choices with my values. If there was something I was hanging onto/finding difficult to deal with, there’s always therapy.

          1. Cheezmouser*

            Ah, interesting! Makes total sense.

            I think where me and hubby are getting tripped up is our values are both “maintain health and family” and “achieve the highest you can achieve in school/work.” The problem is when the two values come into conflict, which is often the case when you want to be at the top of any field. Lol, we want to have our cake and eat it too.

    1. Cheezmouser*

      My husband and I were debating this question yesterday, since he works in one of these industries. Think film composer: there are a lot of composers out there, but only a few get to the status of John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Michael Giacchino, etc. If you want to work on the next Martin Scorsese film, you need to be one of the top composers to have a shot. Most composers don’t get to that level; the most likely outcome is you end up writing music for local car dealership commercials. But it’s possible that maybe one day, if you work hard enough and get some lucky breaks, you could be the next Hans Zimmer and work on some of the most interesting projects in the world. The lure of this possibility is why most of the rank-and-file people in Husband’s field put up with working 14-16 hour days and never seeing their families.

      My husband has been an assistant to a mid-ranked composer for a while (not his real job, just continuing the analogy). There may be an opportunity to move from assistant to composer in the next year or two. He’s already written music for a few local commercials and even a national one, so he’s got at least a little bit of talent. Of course, there’s no way to tell, even if he became a composer, whether he’ll ever move beyond bottom-rung projects. It’s a long, relentless slog, and there’s a reason why most “composers” are divorced. Financially we’re fine if he continues to be an assistant indefinitely. But he’s the type that enjoys challenge, and if he has some talent, it seems like a waste to not at least try. But he also doesn’t want to give up his life and his time with our two young kids.

      What would you do? Stay an assistant forever and enjoy your life outside of work? Or give that up to try to make it in a highly competitive, prestigious field?

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        For me personally, there would be no choice. The only reason I would even consider taking the higher job would be if I were in financial need. If I were working in a field I enjoyed, with reasonable life-work balance and covering my financial needs…well, that’s the dream to me (and I have pretty much achieved it).

        I thought about a version of this when I was about 9 and had no idea of the reality, but I THOUGHT it worked a little like this. One of our teachers was going on about “using your talents” and at that age, I was starting to realise I was good at writing stories (for a 9 year old) and started worrying, “what if I
        really HAVE talent? Would I be obliged to do it full-time? But I want to teach!” Now, of course, I’m almost certainly NOT talented enough to be a bestselling writer, but even if I WERE, I would still choose to write as just a hobby or just as a sideline. It would be awesome to have a book published but spending my life on marketing, working with film crews on adaptions, etc…no. Not that it’s an option, but even if it WERE, I’d far prefer to have a book or two published while continuing with my life normally or just write as a hobby.

        But your husband may feel differently.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Nope. I don’t even want to go for agency jobs at big names, I’m happy as an in house creative with a good work life balance.

    3. Maggie*

      No I wouldn’t but I would also argue that there are people working happy medium fashion jobs just in my personal experience

    4. Star Struck*

      When i was younger and had no kids, i would have (and did) go all in. Reaped the rewards in professional reputation and financially. Now I have kids – would never ever go back.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Now? No. I already have health issues and major family obligations. No margin of error.

      Earlier in life, when I was on my own, healthy, and had plenty of energy? Absolutely. I rolled the dice on a career like that and while it didn’t wind up catapulting me to a long-term, sustainable situation it was totally worth it as a life experience.

      Of course, if I hadn’t had those experiences when I was younger I would probably feel torn about declining such an opportunity now.

    6. Rufus Bumblesplat*

      When I was younger and single I might have considered it. I was fairly shy at the time and didn’t do a lot in the way of social activities so wouldn’t have felt like I was missing out.

      Nowadays I wouldn’t want to risk my relationship with my OH, and I’m a bit more outgoing and have hobbies and activities that I wouldn’t want to give up. I really value the things I do outside of work. There’s no profession that I can think of that I’d be willing to sacrifice everything for.

    7. Panda Pop*

      Definitely not. I do not consider that success. Life is more than money and recognition. I want a full, rich, meaningful life. That world would make me sick and miserable. Why would I ever choose that?

    8. asteramella*

      No, I wouldn’t. At the end of the day my life, my health, my relationships are not an equal trade for just professional success or money.

      I am happy to have a normal amount of professional success and I’ll be glad if I can pay my bills, save for retirement, and have some extra for fun stuff. That’s all. Do I have the “potential” to do more lucrative or more high-profile work? Sure, but I have no desire to.

  127. Fish Microwaver*

    I had an awesome find in the thrift shop this week – a pristine copy of Alison’s Ask A Manager book. So I paid my $3 and gave it a home.

  128. Global Not-A-Nomad Seeking US Work*

    TL;DR … I am an American living abroad for over 15 years, but I want to look for roles in the US that I can legally do while continuing to live here. I did this for 10 years at a major organization with the full knowledge of their general counsel, and it worked out great. How would be the best way to communicate to an organization that my residency in another country may not be as risky as they might think it is, given that our two countries have special tax treaties that make it easier.

    I live in Mexico full-time and have for the past 17 years, but I am American. I also have full work authorization in Mexico. Although I would prefer to work locally, my type of work is not often available at a senior level in Mexico. When it is, at least half the time it is at an extremely low salary (there is a wide, wide range of pay in my area). All to say, locally there are really slim pickings.

    I left a problematic local job as the executive director of an organization about a year ago, and I have had a very discouraging job search since despite having a compelling profile of senior-level experience in my area in Mexico and in the US. I would like to start applying to remote roles in the US to widen the pool, but I assume that I am going to be an automatic reject for many organizations who have strict policies. However, some places are still desperate for great people and many many more organizations are open to remote workers from before, so it seems like there might be wiggle room for some.

    I am pretty well-versed on US and Mexican employment and fiscal law, and I get why orgs shy away from these types of arrangements. However, it is less risky specifically between Mexico and the US — there is a tax treaty that lays out that I do not owe Mexican taxes and the company runs no risk in Mexico of being forced to pay corporate taxes if I work from Mexico AS LONG AS my place of employment does not have an entity in Mexico nor does it do work for Mexico (insert lots of legal terms here, they have a clear definition of what that is). I have confirmed this with multiple meetings with fiscal authorities here. I can be legally employed in the US using a US fiscal domicile and paying the full state and local taxes as well as federal while living in Mexico on my residency visa. I would be willing to sign a contract that any Mexican tax burden would be my own if there were ever to be a change in laws that required me to pay local taxes on that money as well.

    There are of course other risks to an organization – for instance, if I was injured in the course of my computer work and wanted to put in a worker’s comp claim, that might be tricky. I can see an organization being concerned about health care coverage, but I am covered not only by my husband’s employer-based coverage but also a personal health insurance plan we buy on our own. I do not want to diminish real concerns from companies that want to or need to be risk-averse in their policies. However, I worked for 10 years in this same arrangement for a large US non-profit with no problems whatsoever. For the right role, i would even be willing to take the pay cut so they could pay an employer-of-record in Mexico to legally hire me here at no additional cost (again, understanding how for internal policy reasons orgs may not want to do that.) There are likely to be organizations out there willing to entertain this idea for the right person – but how can i find them, or explain things so that they are more amenable to the idea.

    I would love a chance to explain how I personally may not be as risky as someone else – given the tax treaty and my track record. If i had a 2500 person organization hire me before, someone else great might too! But, there doesn’t seem to be any easy time or place to get in front of an in-house recruiter or hiring manager to explain the intricacies of foreign fiscal and employement law. Any suggestions for how to go about this?

    (P.S., I am not in tech or an area that is used to these types of arrangements.)

    1. just another queer reader*

      Hmm. Cover letter? Heavy networking? Leave your location off your resume and discuss it in a later interview? Apply to jobs you’re slightly overqualified for (but with room for growth) so they’re willing to go through a little more paperwork for you? Apply to a very small organization who can’t be bothered to care about the law?

      But probably a quick line in your cover letter is your best bet. “I’d like to be upfront that I am located in Mexico. Due to US/Mexico tax treaties (and based on my previous employment experience working in Mexico for a large US company), Company would not owe any corporate or income taxes to Mexico. Also, I have independent health insurance and would not require health or dental benefits.”

  129. Just Kill Me*

    Today in a group text with some friends outside of work, I was describing a sensitive situation regarding a VP at work going after another person to try to force them out of the company. As soon as I hit send, I realized with horror that I had sent it to the whole management team at work (my peers). I had selected the wrong group text. Not everyone knew about the situation, which made it even worse. Everyone was cool about it and we had some laughs, but I am totally mortified and I don’t think I’ll ever recover. Please tell me I won’t die from the shame and life will go on.

    1. SmallPompeii*

      You’re likely not going to die of shame. You didn’t even post something horrible to the management chat — you accidentally told a funny story in the wrong chat, and you immediately went “OH NO.” I can’t tell you if you’re likely to get in trouble for it or not (idk how sensitive the information is, and my frame of reference is unreliable, given that Old Job was breaking all the laws), but I can tell you that if everyone was cool about it, it’s probably okay.

      Granted, you probably shouldn’t put that in a group chat to begin with? Especially depending on how much sensitive information it involves. If it is just a funny story of “this was a terrible situation and it’s handled now” I think you’re probably fine.

  130. A. D. Kay*

    Employment law Q:

    Are there legal protections against this kind of shady behavior from employers: If an employee is formally berated (that is, it goes in their company record) for not performing to their new boss’s satisfaction on a VERY difficult task that was NOT in their job description and for which they had received NO background info, training, or certification… and the company later used that as a reason for firing, could the employee theoretically sue for wrongful dismissal? (if there was adequate documentation, etc., of course.) …Asking for a friend!

    1. PollyQ*

      IANAL, but absent some kind of union or government employee protection, almost certainly not, as long as they’re in an “at will” state (i.e., every state but Montana). It’s illegal to fire someone for discriminatory reasons, e.g., sex, race, religion, age, sexual/gender identity, but other than that, there’s no legal protection.

    2. SmallPompeii*

      Oh boy. I’m so sorry you’re in this situation.

      Maybe look at it as a bullet dodged? Because if this is not in your job description, and you were berated for it, you can say “well, here’s the situation” (and be honest) in interviews. Honesty is going to make your old boss and company look like penny-pinching jerks.

      As an Aside: I have been where you are, save for the firing bit. I would’ve been fired if they could afford to stop sending me to job sites. However, I was doing 50h weeks for them and they were chronically understaffed.

  131. SmallPompeii*

    I am at my first week at New Job. So, somewhat happy news — after about a year of unemployment and struggling with health stuff, I am finally back to FT employment!

    New Job makes Old Job look bananas (I am so relieved by this). I am going through the trainings directly and doing them all correctly and I am not being forced to fast-track. My new manager is worried I will get bored or be like “why can’t I be independent” and I’m over here like “no, no, I really appreciate this, Old Job had me doing this without any guidance whatsoever and refused to train me.” My manager is kind of horrified at how little training I was given prior to running a site. So that’s nice. I keep worrying I’m going to put my foot in it, and I might, but it’s early days.

    Context: I left Old Job after there was a fatal accident at another office. It was an escalating series of accidents and incidents that kept going unreported. Then someone got hit with a construction vehicle by accident…and I went “nope, I’m done.” Old Job was breaking many, MANY laws but I couldn’t find anyone to report them to — and I was doing work way, way outside my job description. Bonus, they couldn’t afford to keep me legally exempt so stole my wages and claimed they were broke. I was harassed and bullied to the point that I wanted out, the accident happened, I quit, and then Old Boss tried to keep me from getting another job in the industry.

    New Job is really a kick in the pants for him given that I am being bluntly honest with people about what went wrong at Old Job. I stayed way too long. And his bad behavior is hitting him and his old company’s reputation hard!

    I don’t really know what else to do. Do I downplay it? My partner says not to. But I am growing increasingly worried about the horrified looks I keep getting. Or do I be honest, keep an eye out, and try to adjust to a rational workplace?

    1. asteramella*

      I would be matter-of-fact and not downplay the very serious problems at OldJob (a fatal workplace accident being a particularly tragic and awful consequence of those problems). But I probably wouldn’t proactively bring up OldJob and would try not to get into the habit of mentioning it unless it is relevant and germane to whatever conversation is going on.

      It sounds like you are still working through your thoughts and feelings about OldJob—if NewJob offers benefits that you could use, therapy/counseling can be really helpful for this, even if you just talk to someone short-term.

  132. Cheezmouser*

    Survival strategies for working with incompetent people?

    Husband has been assigned a new work team. It’s a cross-departmental team, so none of them report to him. Three people out of 5 are highly incompetent. He’s essentially checking over and fixing half their work, coaching them, drafting their emails for them (it’s a technical job and they get the specs/terminology wrong), etc. It’s not his job to do any of that. Think: they’re waitstaff and he’s a cook. Their knowledge is so poor that Husband will get absurd orders like “tiramisu, hold the ketchup.” He’s doing a lot of overtime because he’s essentially doing half their jobs plus his. I told him that he needs to bring this to their supervisor’s attention at once, but the problem is that their supervisor is also poorly trained and so would not be able to coach them. (Husband knows this because he catches Supervisor’s errors and is coaching them too.) The grandboss is too far removed from everyday processes to provide coaching. I think Husband needs to go to the grandboss anyway and tell it like it is, instead of continuing to cover for and coach these people when it’s not his job. Given the staff shortages, it’s unlikely the company will let these people go, so he’s stuck with them for the foreseeable future.

    Any advice for working with incompetent people who have shown little technical aptitude or improvement?

    1. asteramella*

      Given what you’ve said here, I’d agree that your husband needs to go to grandboss and let grandboss know that there are insurmountable problems and that additional in-depth coaching is needed by *someone other than your husband,* whether that’s a training consultant, a new learning and development person, or whatever.

      If I were your husband I would pull WAY back on the coaching. Maybe walk colleagues through tasks a couple of times, encourage them to take notes. Or point out the mistakes and leave it to the colleagues to fix those mistakes.

      If this is not possible, then if they want multiple jobs’ worth of work out of your husband, he should be getting paid for multiple jobs’ worth of work and should look at trying to negotiate a title change, pay bump or whatever.

  133. Dragonfly7*

    Folks in call center environments, do you have any tricks for being able to focus on a single sound (usually my customer’s voice!) amidst all the background noise both around me and/or around them?
    I’ve luckily only had to make calls onsite one day so far, but many of my customers could barely hear me, or I couldn’t hear them clearly. In group meetings, I frequently can’t hear my manager or peers well if they are onsite because it is SO LOUD. What’s worse is the headset provided for home use isn’t compatible with the onsite equipment, so I only get to listen with one ear when I’m there, too.

  134. It varies*

    The negative from this week, interviewed a guy with great skills but who seemed annoyed at answering my questions and repeatedly mansplained. I made it clear to the hiring manager what happened and she took it seriously so that’s great, but it’s still frustrating to put up with being treated like I’m clueless for an hour!

    The positive from this week is had an amazing time meeting current and former co-workers at a cute restaurant this week. It’s a few miles away from our office (or any office) so the clientele is way more relaxed than some happy hour spots. It was so fun!

  135. slowingaging*

    First time solar power owner. Since SCE is still paying me, is there any upside to conserve energy? Solar panel care? Does anybody clean their own or hire someone to do it?
    I mostly sit and think about my electric bills last summer and smile.

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