my boss says my salary research is wrong because our benefits are so great, calling out sick for flight anxiety, and more

by Alison Green on April 23, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My boss says my salary research is wrong because our benefits are so great

I recently received a promotion with a significant increase in job responsibilities and found myself negotiating salary for the first time in my career. My state requires salary ranges to be posted with job descriptions, so I have a good idea what other companies in our industry are offering for my role and my years of experience, and I asked for a similar amount, about 10% higher than what I was offered. My manager wanted to know how I came up with the new number, so I pointed out these job postings. She responded that the total compensation I was being offered, including benefits, was already equivalent to the amount I was asking for, so there was no need to increase the offered salary amount.

I understand where she’s coming from; we have very generous benefits, including regular bonuses and multiple reimbursement programs for a variety of qualified expenses, and total compensation is a way to quantify those extra dollars. But in my mind, these benefits are not the same as guaranteed pay. Bonuses are dependent on the company’s profits, and I won’t receive the reimbursement funds unless I incur the relevant expenses. Not to mention that the market rates I’m researching are base salary and I don’t have any way of knowing what the dollar value of another company’s benefits would be for a more equivalent comparison.

Is this normal to consider total compensation when negotiating a salary? Am I too focused on the base salary number? I generally consider benefits as more of a happiness boost than a monetary boost (and this is the first time I’ve had benefits that result in me receiving cash payouts), so maybe I need to adjust my mindset. But I feel like my manager is using the company’s benefits package to justify giving me a salary that is below market rate. I’m wondering how I can approach this better at my next salary review.

Ha, no, the value of your benefits package isn’t supposed to be used like that. Your boss is comparing salary plus benefits at your current company to salary alone at another; it’s apples and oranges (or cash and scones?). For all we know, the other companies’ benefits packages could be the same or better than your company’s is! It sure is convenient for her to use that to swat away the comparisons, but it’s not at all accurate to do that.

Bonuses could be an exception to that if your bonuses are extremely reliable (although still not ideal for the reasons you point out), but “we reimburse a lot of expenses that you may or may not incur”? No.

The next time this comes up, you could say, “I appreciate our benefits, but ultimately salary is the most important piece of compensation for me, and that’s what I’m focused on.” You could add, “I can’t include the value of our benefits package without comparing it to the value of theirs.” (And really, she’s practically begging you to go out and learn more about what the competition is offering.)

Related:
can I include the value of my benefits when I talk about my current salary?

2. Can you call out sick for flight anxiety?

This is a hypothetical, but it almost happened. I just had a weekend social obligation in another city that required two flights each way. (These were domestic flights within the U.S.; my local airport doesn’t have direct connections to the destination city.)

At the gate for the first flight back home, I was feeling very anxious about the flight and almost bailed to rent a car and drive back. If I had done this, I would’ve had to miss one day of work.

Ironically, that flight ended up being super smooth. But if I had gone with my idea, would I have legitimately been able to call out with a sick day, on the grounds that flight anxiety is anxiety and therefore a mental illness?

In theory, in a perfect world where everyone understands anxiety and there’s no stigma around mental health? Sure. It should qualify.

In this world, though, the wiser move in a lot of organizations would have been to just say your travel arrangements got messed up, you were having to rent a car to get back, and you’d need to use an additional day of vacation to do it.

3. My boss won’t let me send client reports until he reads them, but he never reads them

My boss is generally fantastic and supports my professional growth and allows me flexibility in working hours and leeway to manage my clients as best I see fit. However, he has one frustrating area of micromanagement that is causing me workflow issues and I don’t know how to move forward.

Our organization’s clients receive quarterly reports on the performance of their products, which I spend about a day each quarter compiling. My boss insists on seeing the reports before I send them to clients. This is despite me never having an error that needs correcting in the five years I’ve worked here.

The issue is that he is swamped and it takes him forever to get round to checking and approving the reports. Currently, he hasn’t yet looked at my 2024 Q4 reports, and the Q1 reports for 2025 are now also waiting for him to check. When I finish a report, I email him with a link to where it’s saved. I remind him about checking the reports at least twice a week in our standing meetings, and he says he’ll do it that day but gets distracted by more urgent priorities and the client reports get pushed to the bottom of the pile. My clients have been asking for the 2024 Q4 reports for a couple months now and I have been giving them vague promises of “soon.”

Telling clients that the reports are ready but I’m not allowed to send them until I get my manager’s approval makes me sound incompetent. However, being months late sending the reports also seems unprofessional. Every time I finish the quarterly reports, I ask if I can send them to clients, and every time he says “I want to do a quick read-through” and then sits on the reports for months. Do you have any advice on how I could do things differently to get a quicker response? Going to his boss feels like a nuclear option as they’re very senior. I don’t want to stop doing the reports as the clients like them and I find it a useful exercise to see how the products are performing. I just want to send them out reasonably soon after the quarter ends!

Have you laid out for your boss that clients keep asking for the reports and you’re concerned it looks bad to keep delaying and then never send them? If not, do that! And then say, “Since I’ve never had an error in the reports in the five years you’ve been looking them over, could our system be that you’ll have a week to look them over, but then I’ll send them at that point if I haven’t heard back from you? I could give you a heads-up the day before. Otherwise they’re not getting to clients in enough time for them to be useful, and I worry we’re making ourselves look bad by delaying them when people keep asking for them.”

If he doesn’t like that, could you pull the latest report out in your standing meeting and ask him to go over it with you right then and there so you can put it to bed?

4. I flamed out at my last job, but there were mitigating circumstances — can I apply again?

I worked for two years at one of the largest and best employers in my field. During my first year, I did well: received good feedback from managers, got good reviews, had my contract renewed for a second year. During my second year, things took a turn: I struggled, got assigned a new manager in case that would help, was put on a PIP, and ultimately let go.

The thing is, there were mitigating circumstances. Starting right at the year mark, I had a series of crises: three pregnancy losses, a surgery, and then a flare-up of a chronic condition so severe that I had to take leave to get treatment. Needless to say, this drastically impacted my work performance, and though my bosses knew what was going on and gave me some grace, I wasn’t able to do enough to mitigate the damage, and they let me go.

The good news is, I did get treatment — and what’s more, got an actual diagnosis (which I’d never had before) and got medicated, also for the first time. The difference is night and day. I didn’t realize how much my chronic condition had been impacting my work performance until suddenly it wasn’t any more. In my new job, I’m excelling again, and it feels easy in a way it never has before.

I’d like to apply for a role with this org again. I know from reading your site that the phrasing “had some health challenges that have since been dealt with” can go a long way towards explaining resume gaps. But as I understand it, that’s usually done in interviews. Is there a similar way to professionally bring up this situation in my cover letter as a way of basically saying, “Yes, I know my records show I was let go, but the situation was very circumstantial and truly won’t happen again”? Having been a hiring manager, I understand not wanting to take a risk on a candidate with a poor internal record, but as an applicant, I’d love to be considered for the role given that I’m now in a very different life situation and the difficult circumstances are unlikely to happen again.

It’s pretty hard to apply at an organization that fired you for poor performance (despite the mitigating circumstances!) so I wouldn’t rely on a cold application and an explanation in your cover letter. Instead, can you get in touch with your last manager there and share the situation? You don’t need to get into private health details but a general description of what happened, that it’s now resolved, and how well you’ve been doing since might go a long way. You can then say you’d love to come back but understand the previous situation might be an obstacle to that, and do they have any advice on whether, given the circumstances, there might be a way to be considered again? They might or might not be able to help, but that’s going to give you a better shot than just applying cold will do (and that manager will definitely be asked about you at some point if you did get considered, so you might as well talk with them and get them briefed ahead of time anyway). Good luck!

5. Employer wants to photocopy my Social Security card

As part of a starting a recent job, I went through the usual onboarding processes. I’m aware the purpose of the I-9 form is to verify eligibility to work in the United States. My understanding is, and always has been, that presenting these ID’s is sufficient to meet the requirements of the I-9.

Recently, I was asked to provide a photocopy of my Social Security card. The HR person was vague when questioned, only saying, “For company security reasons.” They apparently keep a filing cabinet with these. This is questionable to me and possibly a security risk. Is it legal for a company to request and keep photocopies of sensitive documents such as these?

Yes, it’s legal and not uncommon. Many employers keep copies so that if they’re ever audited, they can show that they did in fact check your documents and record the information correctly. The government’s guidance to employers on this says, “You may make copies (or electronic images) of the documentation you reviewed, but must return original documentation to the employee. If you make copies, they should be made consistently for all new hires and reverified employees, regardless of national origin, citizenship, or immigration status, or you may violate anti-discrimination laws.” They’re also required to keep the copies as secure as the I-9 itself.

For what it’s worth, a photocopy of your Social Security card doesn’t really make you more vulnerable to identity theft than the I-9 itself does, since an identity thief only needs your card number, not an image of the actual card (and that number gets recorded on the I-9).

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{ 377 comments }

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  1. Cmdrshprd*

    OP1 Alison is right that your boss is not doing a fair comparison, in your situation. But your boss is right to the extent when reviewing a new job offer, or two competing offers you want to compare the overall total compensation and/or take home pay.

    Sometimes Job A might pay $5k to $10k more but depending on the benefits, you may end up with a lower total compensation and/or take home pay that is less than Job B with a lower salary but significantly better benefits like significantly cheaper insurance, and/or higher retirement contributions. I’d say retirement contributions is something that people often overlook. Sometimes a lower salary of $50k with a 10% ($5000) employer contribution can be better overall compensation than say $52k with a 3% ($1,560) contribution.

    I left a job that had 100% employer paid medical/vision/dental. We now pay about $14k a year for that. So when I moved I needed at least a $20k raise to make it worth it, the first $14k was eaten by increased insurance costs leaving $6k actual raise.

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    1. JC*

      This is a great explanation! Just want to add it can be helpful too to think of how long you might stay and what phase of life you’re in as far as benefits.

      For example, you may be young and healthy and not generally use a lot of the health benefits. Or you may be thinking of having a child and want to make sure you have great healthcare and good leave policies, etc

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      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        A million years, “but the benefits” was the reasoning we were given for our low pay scale. Yes, the benefits were absolutely fantastic (early aughts non-academic state university department -we’re talking no out of pocket for the best in health care, optical, dental, massive retirement matching, childcare, maternity and paternity leave, all of the things), but the pay literally required anyone who wasn’t married or in a partnership to have a second job in order to cover rent, even in the lower cost areas. Our director was astounded to learn that everyone who didn’t have a partner was working two jobs because the local fast food places paid more, and though medical was fantastic, as was the retirement matching – those things didn’t cover rent or groceries. He wasn’t purposefully out of touch, he just was, until he talked to all of us.

        It certainly helped skew the demographics of who worked there, and for how long they stayed. If you were fairly young and single – you burned out because the job didn’t pay enough to live on.

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        1. Annony*

          Absolutely. Utilization is everything and if it is a benefit your aren’t using it really doesn’t move the needle. On the other hand, I have a friend staying at a job where the pay is terrible because they cover IVF. Since that is something they want to do, that is a big enough boost to stay until after they have a child. Meanwhile, I am done having kids and it would mean nothing to me.

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          1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

            I worked at a place that had great benefits for adoption because the company president had adopted her kids. However, the pay was otherwise adequate, so it didn’t matter that that benefit applied only to a tiny minority of employees.

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        2. Lily Potter*

          Very good point. A while back, I was a finalist for a job with a local college. During my phone screen, the interviewer kept touting the “great” benefits package which would have been “great” had I needed tuition remission for myself, spouse or child. It wasn’t “great” for me since I already have an advanced degree and don’t have a spouse or child that needs further education. (had the offer been for me to use to tuition benefit for a non-dependent, we’d have been talking turkey, but that wasn’t allowed). The salary offered was competitive but not fabulous so they kept touting their “fabulous” benefits. Not so much, Jan.

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      2. anon for this*

        Please, if you can afford it, get the good health benefits. Because while you are young and healthy and don’t need a lot of health benefits today, you do not know what will happen tomorrow.

        I work with college undergraduates. Every year some of these healthy young adults get cancer, suffer traumatic brain injury, suffer long term effects of covid or some other illness, have mysterious symptoms that take medical visit after medical visit and test after test to try to diagnose it, suffer mental health crises…

        My own 20-somethine son’s medical bills last year were over $200K. We paid about $15K, health insurance picked up the rest.

        Don’t rely on healthy today. Get the best health insurance benefits you can.

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        2. Mad Scientist*

          This is a good point when it comes to benefits for yourself. I think where the “phase of life” difference comes in is when you’re looking at the cost of covering a spouse and/or family on your insurance. If you’re single with no kids, you probably don’t care if your company offers great bang-for-buck coverage for families, or if they cover childcare costs, etc. And you might not care as much about things like life insurance.

          But you’re 100% right that you’re never guaranteed to be healthy tomorrow just because you’re healthy today!

          Hope your son is doing better.

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    2. AlsoADHD*

      TC matters, though the bonuses and reimbursement part of benefits is fairly uncommon to be the decider. It’s usually health and wellness benefits, retirement match, or (if we’re looking at intangibles instead of tangible TC) leave benefits that make the difference. Very few people would count say a training reimbursement in their TC unless they were in a field where getting certs matters a lot or have current training plans themselves, but most people would look at health benefits cost (including the premiums and coverage) when comparing offers. It just sounds like LW’s boss was blowing smoke based on what they brought up unless they have both very reliable and unbelievably high bonuses (though looking at the 2025 economy, who is going to get bonuses this year if company performance is required?). If LW’s boss had pointed out they have very well covered healthcare and don’t pay premiums, whereas competitors that LW’s boss has worked for don’t usually have that, there might be a point (that was still worth researching) but as it is, it sounded like BS to me. You definitely compare TC and even intangibles when thinking about offers but offering below market rate on salary when promoting is usually a great way to lose that employee within 1-2 years to a competitor, unless you really are offering something different or you’re mission driven (a nonprofit can sometimes get away with it). I only worked in Comp and Bennies briefly but that’s a fairly clear rule inIn today’s (well recent years, 2025 has been nuts) economy, when you’re internally auditing salaries and TC. Basically, LW should wait out a period in the new role and whatever the market does (hoping we don’t have instability for 4 whole years) and then start applying to those other places frankly. And not take a counter and cite this conversation on the way out.

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      1. LW1*

        In the year I’ve been here bonuses have been paid consistently but only amounted to about 2% of my gross salary for the year. As I understand it, tenure is part of the calculation, so a 20-year employee would likely get significantly more, but I don’t have any idea how high the bonuses go.

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      2. Drago Cucina*

        You make a good point about training. Is it a serious expense.

        My husband was required to take so many CEs each year, in different categories, to keep his CRNA license. When applying to hospitals some of the paper and pen numbers we had to figure was: Do they pay the licensing fee (some yes, some no)? Do they pay for continuing education? How much and are there restrictions on where they can be taken. One hospital required they be in state. So it could be a 350 mile trip to the beach was okay, but the 90 mile trip to major city wasn’t. Are there there restrictions to when they can be taken? No summer meetings?

        While I don’t have a license my ALA membership was picked up by a previous employer and I didn’t have to take vacation time for conferences. Five years ago when I started changed jobs that became my own expense and use of vacation time.

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    3. Amy*

      If it’s the US and they have a 100% employer paid health insurance plan, I agree. That’s a huge benefit with tremendous monetary value (I pay $24K – $30K a year for a family of 5, depending on medical events)

      However, in this case, I’d guess the plan is not 100% employer paid and it’s just good. When employers offer lower salaries but completely covered healthcare, I always hear it specified that way.

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      1. CeeDoo*

        When I first took my job, health insurance premiums (not including dental and vision) were fully paid by my employer. Then they’ve ooched up every year, and now I pay $270 a month just for me. I know they say changing jobs is the only way to increase pay or benefits, but with the job market how it is, I don’t want to be the last in somewhere else and be the first out two months later. (I’m a teacher)

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      2. Samwise*

        The benefit is both the cost of the premiums and money saved from covered bills, as well as discounts for members of the health plan (for example pharmacy).

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      3. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

        Oh, definitely. My previous job had essentially 100% employer covered health benefits (for the employee only; if you had dependents, then you had to pay), and it was a gold-plated plan as well… EVERYTHING was covered.

        Then I got laid off, and had to find a new position. My current position has an adequate health plan, but not as good as the last job, and the premiums are like $5000 or so per year, PLUS a separate (very annoying) prescription drug plan that also costs. So even though the salary was roughly equivalent, I had an effective pay cut of about $5K or $6K.

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      4. Mentally Spicy*

        “I pay $24K – $30K a year for a family of 5, depending on medical events”

        I promise this is not a dig at you or a criticism. You’re doing what you can for you and your family. But this European thinks that is an absolutely obscene and disgraceful amount of money.

        My sympathies.

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    4. SmokeytheCEO*

      Our company does this all the time – our benefits supposedly justify below market salaries. Except, when actually looking at other companies’ benefits in our field, they are fairly standard for the field. There is always variability between companies and some may provide more or less for different categories, but the net result is essentially a wash. However, the company always compares itself to the benefits of the industry we serve (and where most of us came from), not the one we are in – so we all came from llama grooming and now work in a llama grooming supply and compliance company, but are reminded that llama grooming companies do not provide most of the benefits we receive…ignoring that the supply & compliance companies do. In the end there is a level of flexibility I personally have which I have assigned a value to, so there is a number that I will happily move on if offered, but for most people they do not have this and just accept the company line. Never trust the people who owe you money to accurately tell you how much they should pay you – always verify.

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      1. Heather*

        Many companies that start out with unique benefits tend to think they are still the only ones offering those benefits. My field offers a lot of tuition reimbursement which was unusual 50 years ago but today is much more common. For years, they kept salaries low because of that one benefit even when older workers and experienced workers were unable to use the benefit.
        As the years went by, other companies added tuition reimbursement and other great benefits and our company fell behind on both salary and benefits. It was hard to get employees for a long time and it took years and years before the company made some really great changes to be more competitive.

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        1. LW1*

          I see this a lot in my industry! This is the second small business I’ve worked for in this industry and both were founded approximately 20-30 years ago. The owners like to tout how they’re ahead of the curve but they actually haven’t crunched the numbers in over a decade, so how would they know?

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          1. Beth*

            In my experience, most employers say they have great benefits, and many seem to genuinely believe it, regardless of whether it’s true. I’ve seen that at all sorts of company sizes, with all sorts of levels of establishment, from startups to industry giants.

            I’ve had prospective employers point to their 3 weeks of PTO (as a combined bucket covering both vacation and sick leave) as a standout perk. I’ve been told that they have a great training and development program–meaning, when pushed, that there’s a $75 annual reimbursement available for career development purposes. I’ve had hiring managers try to sell me on a lower-paid role based on their retirement benefits–a 1% employer match. (I’ve also had employers offer truly standout benefits! I’m focusing on the laughably bad ones because they illustrate how crazy out-of-touch people can be about benefits–all of these people seemed to sincerely believe they were offering something worth bragging about.)

            At this point, I would never believe an employer telling me their benefits are above industry norms unless I have tangible details on their benefits and several of their competitors’ benefits in hand and can compare them for myself.

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    5. HannahS*

      This is how I think of it, too. When I think about remuneration, I think of it on a scale from tangible to intangible compensation, from most –> least:
      1. salary
      2. benefits (retirement contributions, healthcare coverage, etc.)
      3. logistics (how long is the commute; how flexible is the schedule?)
      4. job satisfaction

      You actually can assign numbers to #2 and #3: how much would have to come out of my paycheque to create equivalent supports for me/my family? And how much would an inflexible arrangement cost me in gas, parking fees, and extra childcare (or conversely, how much does it save me?)

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    6. Annony*

      I agree. I had a job that had unbelievable health insurance (less than $100 a month to cover my entire family and max out of pocket of about $3k and was actually easy to use). That absolutely had a monetary value. Unfortunately I had to move and my new job pays more but the cost of insurance and actual medical care means I net less overall.

      Total compensation is not necessarily the number to compare since it may include benefits that you won’t actually utilize or care about, but looking at what costs you will need to incur based on the benefits package is valid.

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    7. Ann O'Nemity*

      You can compare overall compensation to overall compensation, or base salary to base salary—but it’s not fair to compare overall compensation to just base salary. That’s the mistake the manager is making.

      If the company truly offers above-average benefits, that’s worth highlighting!

      For example, I’m currently at a company that offers significantly better insurance, 401(k) contributions, and vacation time, even though the salaries are lower. At this stage in my life, that tradeoff works for me. But 10–20 years ago, when I was younger and didn’t have kids, I prioritized a higher salary, even if the benefits weren’t great.

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    8. Hyaline*

      Yeah I feel like the exact wording here actually matters a lot, and I know we trust what LWs say so I’m not questioning that, but if the boss didn’t LITERALLY say EXACTLY what’s reported here, it would be a lot less ridiculous of a statement. For example, if instead of “the compensation w/ benefits is actually equal” it was more like “though our salary range is lower, we’re known in the industry for having exceptional benefits including XYZ, which for most of our employees means ABC…”

      I’m seeing a lot of comments that benefits are just “happiness perks” and that’s not really a fair assessment…like if an employer offers free childcare on site or exceptional insurance or reimburses college coursework or whatever, it’s a sizable amount of your budgeted expenses taken care of. Even if it’s sick and vacation time, that’s potentially the difference between being paid during extended leave and not being paid because you used your measly 10 days and THEN got hit by a bus and needed to take FMLA to recuperate.

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      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Yes, this!

        It’s not a fair comparison if the manager said, “Your total compensation is better than the salary data you found.” Apples to oranges.

        It’s far more reasonable if the manager can truthfully say, “We offer far better benefits, even if salaries are lower. If you look at the overall compensation for these other positions, you’ll see we come out on top.”

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      2. LW1*

        Right, that would have made sense to me. What she did when she presented the salary offer was show additional line items saying “and here’s the dollar amounts of bonuses and reimbursements you’ve received so far this year, so that gives you a sense of what your total take-home pay will look like with this raise.”

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        1. Hyaline*

          Yeah, that’s combining different baskets of apples and saying they equal one basket of apples somewhere else where the rest of Somewhere Else’s baskets are hidden and you don’t know what’s in them! (Is there any way to get a sense of what is in the Other Baskets at Other Places?)

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    9. Generic Name*

      I’ve found that companies that talk up their “great benefits” usually have mediocre to poor benefits.

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      1. Relentlessly Socratic*

        Haha, yes. I, too, note that “great benefits” usually equals “yer most basic benefits”

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    10. Lucy P*

      I was recently in a very similar situation. I was given a offer which, based on the dollar figure given, would have met my asking amount. Then I was told that that figure would include the employer’s contribution to health insurance. I was actually able to negotiate the base salary I wanted plus 5%.

      However, I needed to know the cost of health insurance. The company has a high-end health care plan which comes with high-end prices. Despite the cost, it still met the affordability test, so I wouldn’t qualify for marketplace insurance. It would have cost me an additional $13,000+/year. Asking for an additional $13k would have put me out of the salary range for that position.

      I was told that there were multiple bonuses each year and significant year-end increases, but none of that was in writing and no dollar figures were ever given.

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    11. LW1*

      That makes sense! I’ve never paid much attention to HOW benefits are presented in an offer letter (when you’re entry level, all that really matters is “yes, we have health insurance”). But now that I’m in a more senior level in my field and seeing the variety of offerings out there, I will definitely be looking for more details and asking more questions the next time I job search.

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      1. Just Thinkin' Here*

        True LW1, but even when the offer letter lists “health insurance” what kind, with what company, how much deductible, and what’s covered is all details that aren’t included. As I get older I’ve learned to ask for all the benefit materials I would get at the onboarding – otherwise you’re guessing at what the costs and benefits really are. Bonuses aren’t normally guaranteed and most of the time the folks in the bonus pool are the first to go in poor economic times.

        Every company says they have great benefits – just like every parent’s kid is the best student at school. :)

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        1. Beth*

          Most companies I’ve interviewed at in the last decade have either shared health plan info proactively or share when I ask. Many have a one pager on “this is what our options are, this is their premiums per month for a single person/family, the plan is with Aetna/Blue Cross Blue Shield/Kaiser/etc., it’s an HMO/PPO/high deductible plan/etc.” It doesn’t usually tell me everything about the benefits–healthcare costs are opaque, I’d have to push harder to figure out whether a specific doctor is covered or what a specific prescription might cost me–but knowing the rates and some general coverage info gives me points for comparison.

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          1. Coverage Associate*

            I have found that the best way to find out about a particular doctor, especially a specialist, and especially a type of specialist you don’t want a prospective employer to know your family needs, is to ask the doctor or their staff. Even great HR will usually have to ask the health insurer or broker, but someone at the healthcare provider has to know.

            This has been a big deal with my family, as we have relationships with doctors lasting much longer than jobs.

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    12. Lisa B*

      I agree with you but only to a point. Benefits tend to slip away more easily over time than salary: a great health plan covers less or shrinks networks, cheap premiums go up, bonuses aren’t guaranteed.

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      1. Hannah Lee*

        Really good point!

        And also when changing jobs, it’s a straightforward thing to push for more at the offer stage based on your current salary + duties of new role vs using only benefits as the justification for request for a higher starting salary.

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      2. Beth*

        Agreed. I think of good benefits as on par with a good manager–it would definitely sway me towards taking one offer over another if all else is equal, but either can change without warning, so take it with a grain of salt.

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      3. Nomic*

        Even employee match changes. When I started my current job employee 401(k) match was 8%. Soon after I joined it was slashed to 4%. Co-workers didn’t understand why I was mad about a 4% pay cut.

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      4. Orange You Glad*

        Yes! At the start of my career, I took a lower salary but had a lot of great benefits (company funded healthcare plus HSA, 10% retirement match, full tuition reimbursement, etc.). After 2 years, those benefits were greatly reduced or removed completely and I was left with a lower-than-industry-average salary and mid benefits.

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    13. (not that) Beth*

      It’s true that the benefits can make a difference when you’re comparing two offers, or if you’re comparing a new offer with your current job. But that’s truly only relevant when you’re comparing offers–that’s the only time when you have solid information on both companies’ benefits packages.

      OP is completely right to be comparing apples to apples, salary to salary. Their boss is making a claim that they can’t back up with any actual data. Maybe this company’s benefits are actually better; maybe OP’s boss genuinely thinks they’re better, but they’re actually pretty standard; maybe OP’s boss knows their benefits are average, and this entire line of reasoning is just a dodge to defer OP’s salary request. Regardless, it’s a conversational dead-end for OP because there’s no way for them to know.

      I see two good options for OP here. They could keep pushing for a salary raise, pushing for their salary to be compared apples-to-apples to industry norms in the area. Or they could start applying at some of these other places and get some actual offers–either they’ll learn that their boss is right and their current benefits really are better enough to be worth their lower salary, or they’ll get a better offer and move on.

      Reply ↓
    14. SweetCider*

      Also, some organizations publicly post overviews of their benefits package. If you can find that for the companies you’re using for base comparisons it might help you negotiate with the current manager.

      Reply ↓
    15. Coverage Associate*

      This. During my last job, I made spreadsheets comparing base salary, any retirement matching, employer contributions to healthcare, and expected out of pocket healthcare costs. I was lucky in that I could estimate our healthcare needs with some accuracy. I also looked at ACA plans for dependents.

      I chose the job that didn’t have the highest base salary but where my net worth would increase fastest because of a generous 401k match and health savings account contributions. And for reasons related to the actual work.

      Reply ↓
  2. Cmdrshprd*

    OP 4, you can try to apply, but I would very much do so with out any real hope/expectation of actually getting interviewed/hired. Aka a hail mary play.

    I say that as someone that will often ask questions when I know the answer is 99.9999999% no, on the off chance I get a yes. I’ve gotten very comfortable hearing now and moving on, but it wasn’t always easy not getting my hopes up.

    Reply ↓
    1. Artemesia*

      I cannot imagine rehiring someone who was fired for performance since it is so difficult most places to fire people in the first place. Energy is better expended focusing on seeking work elsewhere.

      Reply ↓
      2. Llama Llama*

        Right? I had an employee who was in the middle of a PIP when my company was acquired by another. Which started things over for her. She started doing okayish and then our departments work was outsourced. We got jobs in different departments.

        Fast forward several years. I am hiring for my department and she applied. People said she was doing great now, I at least interviewed her but my brain was saying she did terrible work! It doesn’t matter if she is doing good now, all I can see was the constantly missed deadlines and poor work. I did not hire her.

        Reply ↓
          1. bamcheeks*

            Well, no employer is obliged to give someone a chance if they feel more confident about giving someone else the chance. You aren’t there to do a favour for an employee: you’re there to find the best person for the job to the best of your ability.

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          2. Sam I Am*

            That’s an overreaction. No one is entitled to “a chance” (really, a second chance) at a specific company, and it’s not terrible and awful to decline to hire someone who performed poorly when they previously worked at the company.

            Reply ↓
            1. Debby*

              I agree Sam I Am! At least Llama gave her an interview-that was her chance. She could have addressed it then, and shown how she had overcome those difficulties (if, indeed she had overcome them). So I don’t understand how not hiring her was “awful”.

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          3. Leenie*

            Is it terrible? Why is the person who Llama had a bad experience with more deserving of the position than any other applicant? Presumably, they hired someone and that was a good outcome for the person who was actually hired.

            Reply ↓
          4. Lenora Rose*

            Actually, I think recognizing “If I hire this person I will judge them unfairly and likely not give them a setting they can succeed in” is useful self knowledge and saves both people heartache. If the reason was something else (say, some characteristic the person was born with, or oops, they look just enough like my nasty ex to make me cringe) I’d strongly encourage them to work on themselves, but for “I experienced this person as a bad worker who got away with it due to the timing of an acquisition” it seems like the cost of struggling to get past that perception is not worth the risk of this harming the would-be employee.

            And someone doing great work now will almost certainly get plenty of other interviews.

            Reply ↓
        2. Aggretsuko*

          I can say from experience that once you ruin your reputation or get a bad one, you can’t recover from it. Even if you had good excuses, you probably still can’t, because people will always think of you negatively for what you did/didn’t do in the past.

          Reply ↓
      3. abca*

        It is really not so difficult to fire people in many places. Several large tech companies are known for having a 5 to 10% PIP quota with the goal to fire “low performers”. So you have a team with top performers, but have to fire someone anyway. Even if you could objectively stack rank everyone, it’s not that hard to end up at the bottom at some point, because the actual low performers are already gone. “Hire to fire” is also a thing at those companies.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rogue Slime Mold*

          “Hire to fire” is also a thing at those companies.
          Seems exactly like the mis-incentive of paying by how many coding errors you detect.

          Reply ↓
      4. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        Idk, I could totally see some places being open to rehiring someone under these circumstances. It wouldn’t be a shoe-in, there would certainly be barriers, but as a hiring manager the specific facts here would at least get the LW a look from me.

        Reply ↓
      5. Annony*

        I think circumstances do matter. I had to quit a job because I was dealing with mystery health issues. Turns out it was a weird form of epilepsy that is now fully controlled. I would not hesitate to reapply there since everyone was aware that my performance decline was due to health issues and those are 100% controlled but I have also kept in touch with the people I worked with, have a 10 year history of performing very well and it was very obvious I was having health issues (no one thought I was simply slacking off).

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      6. Baunilha*

        I wouldn’t say most places. In my experience, it’s the other way around: too many employers let their employees go without giving them a chance first.
        I know in OP’s case they did give her an opportunity to correct course, but I could see them being hired again if they had a solid track record (before things went sour) or if they’re applying to a different position.

        Reply ↓
    2. learnedthehardway*

      Honestly, the chances are slim. This is a situation where the OP should have gone on a leave of absence for medical reasons, before their performance dipped so badly that they were put on a PIP.

      That said, they may have the ability to get some redress – their manager SHOULD have realized that they needed to be on accommodation, I believe. There might be an argument to be made that failing to suggest this puts the company at a risk of liability – that’s really unlikely to get them to rehire the OP, but it might be leverage to demand that the reason for the termination be changed to something more innocuous.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        It sounds like LW was a contract worker and therefore ineligible for FMLA protections.

        Also, the usual reminders: 1) not every employee is eligible for FMLA, 2) not every employer is required to offer FMLA, and 3) FMLA doesn’t need to be paid and most cannot afford to take it unpaid.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            Then I’m not sure how to interpret this line: “During my first year, I did well: received good feedback from managers, got good reviews, had my contract renewed for a second year.” Do you think the LW had an employment contract?

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    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’m not sure the “mitigating factors” argument will be very compelling on its own.

      That said, I do think there’s a potential path back to the company—especially if the letter writer achieves some significant career successes in the meantime. If they can frame it as a story of growth—something like, “I failed at this company, but it taught me X, which I then used to accomplish Y and Z”—it could resonate.

      It really comes down to the narrative. People love a good comeback story.

      Reply ↓
  3. Martin Blackwood*

    Different country, but Canada doesnt even give out a card with your Social Insurance Number any more. I have a card with my deadname on it somewhere and a sheet of paper that has both my current name and the number from when i updated it. I dont see how its a bigger security risk than your tax documents.

    Reply ↓
    1. fhqwhgads*

      In an entirely thought-experiment sense: if they’re storing the copies of the documents separately from the I-9, it is in theory a slightly larger risk because there are now two places a bad actor could breach and obtain the information. So more opportunity. But if they’re stored together, then if you get in there and get either one, you’ve got the relevant identity-stealing info either way, so it doesn’t matter that they have two.
      It is not a risk worth complaining about since it’s specifically documented as a valid thing for them to do. And someone who can get access to one can probably get access to both. It’s a very minor increase, but is still theoretically an increase.

      Reply ↓
      1. Coverage Associate*

        In 2025, physical copies are probably safer than digital copies, and I feel like forms are more likely to be digitized than just copies of documents.

        I haven’t heard of a physical break in of an office leading to identity theft from paper records in a long time, if ever. Data breaches, OTOH…

        Reply ↓
    2. Statler von Waldorf*

      I used my (very old) SIN card as secondary ID when I voted recently.

      One of the younger poll workers commented that they had never seen a physical SIN card before. I swear I felt like a rapidly-aging Matt Damon at the end of Saving Private Ryan when I heard that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Martin Blackwood*

        What??? I’m in my early twenties, and my card is kicking around somewhere. Everyone whos old enough to vote is old enough to have had a physical SIN card.

        Reply ↓
    3. JustaTech*

      At one point my company had to ask everyone to bring in their proof of permit to work documents (SSN, passport, visa, etc) and re-copy all of them.
      (This was somewhat concerning as many of us had worked there for many years and had done this at our onboarding. What happened to those copies? No one ever said but my guess was that someone in HR accidentally deleted them or failed to get them migrated properly.)

      My somewhat paranoid coworker was *very* concerned that our copier (which is leased, not owned) was storing digital copies on its hard drive, so there was a second, uncontrolled copy on that copier. The HR person just looked blank when presented with this concern.
      I suggested that my coworker should scan a ream of blank paper to effectively wipe the memory.

      Reply ↓
    4. iglwif*

      Wait, really? So … what do they give you now?

      (Last time I applied for a SIN was for my kiddo when she was a baby, because the bank said my mom couldn’t open a savings account for her unless she had a SIN. Kiddo is now a 22yo with a BA and a full-time job, so that tells you how recent my experience is haha)

      Reply ↓
    5. Freya*

      Ditto here in Australia. You get a letter with your tax file number in, and that’s it. I have to log into my account at the tax office to remember what mine is (and the tax office has implemented a thing where you can export the forms with the details of your tax file number (and tax withholding categories) and superannuation for your employer, which significantly reduces issues caused by typos)

      Reply ↓
  4. Reality.Bites*

    When I was 20 or 21 my dog chewed up my Social Insurance card (Canada), and didn’t get around to getting it replaced.

    In the over 40 years since, I’ve never had to show it to anyone. They stopped issuing that cards entirely (but not the numbers) in 2014.

    Like the US SSN, it’s nine digits, but we do write and say it as 123 123 123, not the 123 12 1234 as in the US

    Reply ↓
    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      My number just happens to be more easily remembered in the 123 123 123 format. I’m pleased to learn I’ve been doing it the Canadian way the whole time!

      Reply ↓
    2. Another Kristin*

      This sets my mind at ease, as my SIN card was also destroyed by a pet years ago and I’ve never gotten it replaced! I have my SIN memorized and I didn’t want to have to change it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dr. QT*

        That’s interesting that when you have to replace it, it gives you a new number. Social Security Numbers generally stay the same (except in extraordinary circumstances), so when I got a new card when I changed my name, it’s still the same number. When I had to get a new copy of my card so I could get a driver’s license, it was still the same number.

        Reply ↓
      2. iglwif*

        I don’t think they gave you a new number when you got a new card.

        At least, the time I lost my whole wallet, I was advised to put a flag on my SIN so I would be notified if anyone tried to use it to get a credit card or something, and they sent me a new one with the same number on it.

        I have also had mine memorized since the late 1980s and would really really struggle to learn a new one!

        Reply ↓
        1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

          I’ve had mine memorized since January 1972! That’s when I registered in person for my classes at the university I ended up graduating from. Back then, they used your SS# as your student ID, if you can believe that. (People hadn’t started worrying about identity theft yet.)

          I had to repeat that danged number so many times that day that I had it memorized by the time I was done!

          Reply ↓
        2. Another Kristin*

          Ah well, it’s a moot point now since they don’t give out cards anymore! And to think I’ve felt vaguely guilty about not replacing my SIN card for years

          Reply ↓
    3. Aggretsuko*

      Hah, when I got my first job I brought in a photocopy–my parents kept the original as they did not trust me to not lose it…and they had a point– of my SSN card and I was told, “We literally can’t hire you without the original card” and sent me home in shame. I had to have my mom drive the card over from 1.5 hours away so I could start a day later. It was so embarrassing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hannah Lee*

        I’m the person who does the I9, identification checks at my company, and yeah, that’s the way it’s supposed to work. The employer representative doing the verification should be looking at the original documents, not relying on a photocopy the employee brings in.

        And if you think about the reason for reviewing the documents (making sure the information the employee provided is accurate, and that the identity of the person is what they say it is) it makes perfect sense why they need the original. It’s much harder to fake a credible “original”; a photocopy is easy to modify.
        The employer can’t KEEP the original. That’s why some keep a photocopy (hopefully well secured as any other sensitive personnel information)

        Reply ↓
    4. Just a Pile of Oranges*

      I still have my card but I’m the only one who’s seen it since I was very young.

      It’s not like a driver’s license with security features. It’s a card with my name and a number. The only difference between that and a piece of paper is the card is plastic.

      Reply ↓
    6. KTbrd*

      I’m in my 30s (US) and at some point my social security card vanished. (I’m sure it’s in my mom’s house somewhere.) people would act shocked when I said I don’t have one but I always said “I know the number, what do I need the card for?” Then this year my passport (I9 replacement) had expired and I’m also getting married so I figured I should get a replacement one. At EVERY STEP of the process the website was like “Are you SURE you need a new card? Like SURE sure? Because knowing the number is probably enough!” It was a weird combination of vindication and “tell that to my seasonal retail job who asks for it every year!”

      Reply ↓
      1. Melody Powers*

        That’s odd. I had to replace mine after a fire and it was pretty simple without any of that questioning. I guess it varies by state like most everything else here.

        Reply ↓
  5. yvve*

    If you felt the sick day was worth pressing for, I’d go with “was sick and couldnt fly/missed flight”. But would not specify exact details of sickness

    (still might get some scrutiny, tho, just because its a sick day at the end of personal travel. )

    Reply ↓
    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d worry about using social capital at your job for a suspicious sick day like this because you probably don’t want your manager to start noticing your sick days more e.g. if you choose to use them for short notice interviews.
      Also, think why you could manage your flight there but the return flight was a problem. Worries about returning to work or home?

      Reply ↓
      1. EventPlannerGal*

        “Also, think why you could manage your flight there but the return flight was a problem. Worries about returning to work or home?”

        Maybe, but honestly with flight anxiety it doesn’t have to be that deep. Mine gets worse on return journeys because I tend to be more physically tired and stressed. Could be that the earlier flight stressed them out, maybe something happened in the airport (I had a total meltdown on the shortest, smoothest flight of my life because I was so stressed from getting through the airport!) , maybe they’d heard that the weather was going to be bad but it was actually fine, could be a whole bunch of things. I really feel for the LW, it’s such an unpredictable thing and can make travel miserable!

        Reply ↓
      2. Nancy*

        Flight anxiety can happen at any time. It’s not that complicated.

        Getting sick after personal travel or missing flights also sometimes happens. A quick call to say you are sick and need to take off would be fine, no need to explain the anxiety.

        Reply ↓
        1. Colette*

          I wouldn’t say you’re sick without explaining that you also need to drive back – which is where it gets sticky. If you just say you’re stick and, say, you get in an accident three hours away from home, then what?

          Reply ↓
        2. mbs001*

          Optics look very bad when you call in sick after being off for vacation, regardless of the reason. I wouldn’t go there. Better to just say you missed your flight. (And though there shouldn’t be, there could be a stigma around the anxiety issue so don’t mention that part.)

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          1. TGIF*

            Screw optics! if one is anxious or sick, then one is anxious or sick! Take the day, ones’ health is more important than any “optics”.

            Reply ↓
            1. Colette*

              I agree that if you’re sick after vacation, you should take the sick time. But in this case the OP was sick while on vacation; they are not sick on the day they’d be taking off.

              Reply ↓
            2. nnn*

              That sounds nice and reddity for sure, but one’s ability to eat might be important than the principle here. Optics do matter at work. No one’s saying not to take the day, the question is if you should disclose the real reason.

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          2. Smithy*

            While I think the optics piece is fair – I think that the reality becoming savvy with optics is knowing both your workplace and having a larger view.

            Using a sick day for anxiety, a hangover, an interview – etc – those are all things that people do. And also unlike to be great reasons to formally share that you need a day off. However it’s more about a cumulative effect vs one off examples when it starts to become an issue. Someone who takes a sick day the day after the Super Bowl, or after their birthday – if it’s a once a year thing, even if folks give you the “sure you got food poisoning from Cousin Jerry’s queso” – you’re likely not burning capital, and if anything showing a little common sense.

            However, if it’s a sick day after the Super Bowl, sick day after your birthday, after a vacations, day after long weekends, etc. Whenever it becomes a pattern that people can notice, that’s when the optics issue multiples. And so whether it’s people talking about someone as a partier, interviewing for a new job, or otherwise less reliable – that’s often when it becomes less possible to dictate the course it will take.

            Reply ↓
      3. DJ Abbott*

        Really time I’ve had flu in the last few decades was after I got on an elevator with a colleague who then told me how horribly sick she was, but had to come to work because she had just come back from vacation.
        A nice woman who didn’t mean any harm, but it really illustrates some of the things we’ve discussed here.

        Reply ↓
        2. Bunch Harmon*

          The only time I had the flu was when my brother flew home for Christmas and picked it up on the plane. In his case, he got it during his vacation instead of after, but it’s not uncommon for people to get sick when flying

          Reply ↓
          1. I Have RBF*

            True.

            If their vacation was to a large gathering spot, like a convention or Disney, the odds that they got sick from/during their vacation are high, IMO. Traveling is a huge risk for illness if you don’t take precautions. This was true even before Covid. “Con crud” was a thing. Same with “Flight Flu”.

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            1. Freya*

              For me, its Comp Crud – as in dance competition. Days on end of people partner dancing with lots of people, and half of them not washing their hands properly. I got my OCD about hand sanitiser at dance competitions twenty years ago, because not only does it reduce the likelihood of you getting sick but also reduces how much your hands sweat! I was vindicated the year someone had gastro and only a dozen or so of us out of the 130-150 people competing at that comp were spared.

              Reply ↓
      4. CrazyCatDude*

        I only think this would be a problem if LW’s boss is particularly nosey and micro-manages their sick days. I think most bosses have more important things on their mind to worry about whether their employee’s sick days are suspicious or not.

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    2. Another Kristin*

      My work has a written policy against using a sick day at the end of a vacation period! Presumably so people can’t use their sick days to pad out a vacation. It seems harsh, though, I’ve certainly come back from vacation with a stomach bug or a cold.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lily Potter*

        Back in the 90’s I worked for a retailer that gave us part-timers 4 hours’ holiday pay for the major holidays. If the store was open on the holiday itself and you worked, you also got time-and-a-half for your hours. However, you didn’t get paid the 4 hours of holiday pay if you called out for ANY reason on your scheduled day before, the day of the holiday (if you were scheduled), or on your scheduled day after the holiday. It didn’t matter if you were hungover or in the hospital. No holiday pay was issued unless you kept to your schedule the day before/of/after the holiday. If you had a scheduled vacation day the day after the holiday, you had to work the first day you were scheduled to be back. It really did cut down on the callouts, especially on New Year’s Day.

        Reply ↓
      2. JustaTech*

        My company recently instituted a similar policy, but only for holiday (not vacation) -kind of like what Lily Potter describes. It is directed at the manufacturing plants that need a minimum number of people to operate, but for “fairness” is applied to everyone.
        They do say that you can use a sick day if you have a “good reason”, whatever that means.
        So when my coworker got giardia on a camping trip over a holiday weekend it was a bit of fuss to get the time approved.
        And when my toddler got sick the day before a holiday weekend I had to show that I had worked the *afternoon* of the Friday in order to be allowed to not lose the holiday off.
        That was frustrating because the HR person was all “do you have a doctor’s note” for a toddler who was sent home from school with the runs. No, of course I don’t have a doctor’s note – I have a note from the school and I can send you a picture of his diaper.

        On the one hand I understand why the rule exists, on the other hand it’s incredibly frustrating for those of us who are *not* impacting producitivity.

        Reply ↓
  6. Charlie*

    I remember being raised with the maxim that I was NEVER to give out my SSN (lots of forms ask for it but you can bypass sometimes) and then having to adjust when I started working and had to start actually agreeing to give it out, because I was so used to default refusing!

    Reply ↓
    1. Richard Hershberger*

      I have worked in several jobs that involve other people’s SSNs. I realized long ago that there really is no hope of keeping it secret. (Fun fact: some states used to use your SSN as your driver’s license number.) Sure, don’t give it out to random passersby. (I was once on a commuter train several seats ahead of a guy speaking very loudly into his phone giving his number. I was tempted to write it on a piece of paper and hand it to him.) But realistically, there are so many legit uses for it that you can’t count on it as being secure.

      Reply ↓
      1. Malarkey*

        When I worked retail in the early 90s, people wrote checks instead of using credit most the time and we wrote their drivers license number on the top of the check- which was your social in our state. Some people printed it on their checks. That number was EVERYWHERE.

        Reply ↓
        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          When I started college in the late 80s, it was often used as student ID numbers. And it was on driver’s licenses in my state.

          Many people didn’t get one then until they started working, because you didn’t need it until then.

          SSNs at one time were just seen as a form of government record keeping. They weren’t associated with identity theft, etc., the way they are now.

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          1. Rock Prof*

            Even in the early 2000s when I was in college, my school was still using SSN as the student ID until about my junior year when they switched to another system. Professors would post exam scores with your social instead of your name!

            Reply ↓
        2. Drago Cucina*

          I’m so old, I used to have to stencil my SSN on the outside of my Army duffle bag. That I carried through airports. We also had our SSNs and phone numbers printed on our checks.

          Now if I work with a document that has name, email, and phone number I get “sensitivity” flags. How things have changed.

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        3. Gumby*

          And this is why I still know my mom’s old CA driver’s license number – from the many, many times she recited it while checking out at the grocery store. (CA does *not* use SSN for license numbers.) I had to check my own license to make sure I had it right when filling out my taxes this year. But hers? Engraved on my brain apparently.

          Reply ↓
      2. Beany*

        I grew up in Ireland, but came to the US for a summer job (short-term J1 visa) in 1993, during my undergrad years. I was issued an SSN at the time, but I didn’t realize it was permanent.

        Five years later I moved to the US for graduate school (F1 visa), and the university gave me a 9-digit student number which magically changed after about 6 months … when my 1993 paperwork caught up with me. This is when I discovered that it was standard practice to use SSNs as student numbers. I was both impressed at the federal bureaucracy, and disturbed that they’d abuse sensitive info like this.

        Reply ↓
      3. bamcheeks*

        Why is it so sensitive? What can you do with it? I don’t think we have anything equivalent in the UK and I’ve never understood what the big deal is.

        Reply ↓
        1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

          Your Social Security Number, along with your demographic info- name, address, birth date- can be used to steal your identity and wreck all sorts of havoc. Drain money from your bank accounts, open accounts in your name, take out loans in your name, use your insurance for their purposes, etc. It’s not the ONLY way to steal your ID, but it’s a comprehensive one.

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        2. MCL*

          It’s an easy way to steal an identity. You can use it to open a line of credit or a bank account among other things. A stolen SSN can be a real issue for fraud. Credit agencies also use SSN to check your credit history or score, so fraudulent activity can really impact that score (a score is used to determine things like the interest rate on a loan you’re applying for etc).

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          2. Texas Teacher*

            Funnily enough, SSNs were originally only supposed to be used to verify eligibility to work, I believe. On the back of my card, it explicitly says something about it not being used as identification.

            Reply ↓
          3. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

            You generally need other info too- name, address, birth date, etc- in order to steal someone’s identity and open accounts, take out loans, drain bank accounts, etc. But that info is MUCH easier to obtain than SSI- or at least, it used to be. SSI’s are so wildly circulated now they’re almost useless. My info got on the dark web in a hack about 15 years ago and every so often, someone tries to open a credit card in my name or hack into accounts of mine. I’ve got everything on lock down as I can without paying for an extra service, but things still slip through the cracks at times.

            Reply ↓
          4. JustaTech*

            Yes, there’s someone who’s been using my husband’s SSN since he was a teen and the other person (ID thief) has a bad time with money.
            Which means that my husband can’t ever open an account at a credit union, even though his credit score is impeccable because credit unions in the US use a different reporting system than the Big 3 credit rankers, and that other system *will not* remove the ID thief’s information from his report.
            It also means we can’t open any joint accounts at credit unions, which is also frustrating, because often credit unions have better rates for things like loans.

            And yes, he’s reported it several times, he has a police report from way back when and everything, but nothing is ever done. And given that the ID thief is about the same age, it’s just going to keep being a problem our whole lives.

            Reply ↓
        3. Beth**

          The UK equivalent is your National Insurance number, but it’s less widely used here for things like credit checks.

          Having lived in the UK now for several decades, I am now puzzled by how Americans are so reluctant to reveal their bank account number. Here in the UK, it’s so normal to do person-to-person bank transactions. I know the bank details of many colleagues (for sending my share of group gifts) and friends-of-friends (for reimbursement of event tickets) that it just doesn’t feel much like sensitive data.

          Reply ↓
          1. Neutral Janet*

            This is so interesting to me! In Canada you would give that information out for something like direct deposit of paycheques, but for e-transfers to friends or colleagues all you need is their email address.
            I don’t think e-transfer exists in the states, they seem to use apps like venmo instead. But sharing bank account info definitely isn’t a thing here the way you describe!

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          2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            I don’t know how the UK bank details work, but in the US a routing number, a bank account number, and maybe the name on the account is all you need to withdraw money from an account. Routing numbers are often publicly available, so if you know that I bank with Local Credit Union and my account number is 1234567, you’ve got access to my money and there’s very little I can do about it other than close the account.

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            1. bamcheeks*

              Yeah, you’d need a formal Direct Debit or Standing Order form with the account owner’s signature to withdraw money in the UK. With a sort code and acc no, you can only pay in.

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            2. Opaline*

              This is the difference. In the UK having someone’s bank account number and sort code lets you transfer money into that account, but not out of it. Transfers out of the account usually use info like debit card details instead, or need the account owner to arrange and authorise the payment themselves.

              If I give my bank account number to a friend so they can pay me back for dinner, there’s no way for them to empty my bank account instead. Honestly it’s kinda wild to me that it’s set up that way in the US.

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              1. Neutral Janet*

                Oh wow, that is wild. Isn’t most or all of that information on cheques? I’m curious how this worked when cheques were more commonly used/ necessary!

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                1. Funko Pops Day*

                  It is, and it’s how check fraud works! “Catch me if you can” is a fun example of how a criminal used just the information from a basic check for millions of dollars of fraud.

            3. Amy*

              I don’t think that’s accurate. Checks have always had the bank account and routing number on them.

              While paying in checks is less common now, it’s still not uncommon and getting a check doesn’t mean anyone can pull money out of your account.

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              1. Annika Hansen*

                Exactly! Your account number is on your check. I rarely have to write one these days, but they used to be common to use.

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              2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

                Yes, checks have the routing number and account number, and that’s how deposit-at-home apps work – you take a picture, the app identifies the numbers, the bank makes an ACH transaction and fronts you the money assuming the transaction will go through. If the transaction doesn’t go through, or gets disputed, things get more interesting. The same thing works for online payments – I tell the IRS, for example, that they can pull my tax payment out of a bank based on just the routing and account number, and I check a box that says I’m an authorized user for that account. If I’m actually committing fraud and they catch me I’m in a world of hurt, but that wouldn’t be much consolation for the guy whose account that actually was if he needed to pay the rent.

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              3. AnotherOne*

                Yeah, I agree. That sounds wrong. That sounds what you’d need to transfer to an account (and there have been issues with that.)

                But transferring from an account, theoretically should be more difficult. (Unless someone is doing it by creating a check with someone’s bank info and signing their name, I suppose. I would also imagine that increases the odds that it will get caught but depending on what you are using it for and how long you need it to go undetected for maybe it doesn’t matter?)

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              4. Names are Hard*

                They can, but most people don’t realize it. I might not be able to walk into the bank and pull out money, but I can do online transactions. I could pay any number of bills online with just a routing and account number. I could make my own checks with that number on it. How quickly you’d get caught would depend on how well the person in question watches their account.

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                1. Starbuck*

                  Some bill accounts that you pay this way have an extra verification step – the last time I was setting one up, it told me the app was going to do a deposit and withdrawal of a few cents (random) and I needed to provide that $ amount to verify my ownership of the account.

            4. Emmy Noether*

              In Europe, and I believe also the UK, you need the account number to wire money to someone, so it’s quite often given out. I’ve never heard of a routing number. Are those two different numbers in the US?

              To withdraw money, at a minimum you need a signature on a withdrawal authorization, and I do believe banks check those against the signature on file. The bank also has to reimburse fraudulent transactions, so it’s in their interest to keep security tight. For online banking it’s all 2 factor authentification now.

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              1. Amy*

                Yes, even in person with identification, you need the PIN number on the account, in addition to the account number.

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              2. doreen*

                The routing number identifies the bank and the account number identifies the account. To a certain extent , having my routing number and account number allows someone to use my bank account. They shouldn’t be able to withdraw money but I can use that information to pay a bill by “electronic check”. I often paid my kids’ college tuition with an electronic check ( to avoid the credit/debit cards fee) but although my kids and I don’t share a surname , it was no problem. In theory, anyone with my routing and account number can pay their bills from my account – however, the fear people have of this is kind of irrational because that same info is on every check I write.

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              3. Jackalope*

                The routing number is the number that tells the system which specific bank the money is going to or coming from. Each bank has its own number, and some of the bigger banks that exist across a wider geographic area have more than one depending on which branch you opened your account at. The account number is specific to the particular person.

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              5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

                Yes the routing number is the number for the bank. Ever bank has a different number and it’s often public, ore easily found. So basically the routing and account number shows you have an account and this bank. That’s why people don’t give their account info out, and why paper checks are less common. The check has both numbers. It would be easy for someone to pull money from the account.

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            5. Nina*

              In the US you’re also completely fine with having people just wander out of sight with your entire bank card, though, and where I grew up that’s just unthinkable (because you very much can remove money from an account with just a photo of the back of a debit card, by using it to buy stuff online).

              I’m used to UK-style banking – to get money out of your bank account, you need to have the physical card, or be logged in to internet or app banking using the login you set up when you opened the account, or be physically in the bank presenting ID that shows you’re the account owner. There is no way to get money from someone else’s account with just the name and number.

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              1. AnotherOne*

                yeah, that’s on my no list and is why I use a credit card. i only use my debit to get cash (or when i used to have one card sometimes i’d forget it and when i was out at store i’d pay with it at the machine in front of me, but absolutely no letting it leave my sight.)

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            6. sarah*

              Wait, that can’t be true. Everyone you hand a check to has your routing # and account #. There’s got to be more to it than that.

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              1. fhqwhgads*

                Nope! The only thing stopping people from check fraud is A) not realizing it’s that simple or B) knowing it’s illegal and they’ll get caught.

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            7. iglwif*

              Wait, WHAT?! You can just rock up with someone’s account number and take their money?

              That’s BONKERS.

              (In Canada, you can send someone money as long as you have their email address and they have a bank account, but in order to withdraw money you would need their physical bank card and the PIN that goes with it — knowing account numbers would not be useful.)

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          3. londonedit*

            Yeah, you can’t do anything like opening a bank account just with someone’s NI number. That’s not to say identity fraud doesn’t happen, but just having someone’s NI number or their bank account number isn’t going to do you any good.

            We’re slow on the uptake of money transfer apps here, but that’s probably because it’s very easy to transfer money to people via online banking/your bank’s app. You use the account number, sort code and account name and you can transfer or pay in. But that’s about it – you can’t withdraw money just with the account details. Fraud tends to come in where people persuade others to send them money – so the banking apps all have warnings that come up saying ‘Are you absolutely sure that you know this person and it is definitely a genuine payment request’ etc – or of course fraudsters can also do things like stealing your phone and then managing to hack in to your banking app (though mine requires touch ID and a passcode). But you can’t do anything with just the account details, except for transferring money to that account.

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        4. Observer*

          Why is it so sensitive? What can you do with it?

          Identity theft, for one. But the other is that *anything* related to government benefits as well as work credit for Social Security (hence the name) is tied to that number. So someone (mis)using your SSN could mess you over in terms of taxes, benefits, etc.

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        5. Drago Cucina*

          A younger acquaintance discovered that his mother sold his SSN when he was 5. When he became a teen and tried to apply for jobs he discovered that “he” owed taxes and had a in the basement credit rating. It took him a long time to get it fixed.

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      4. Passive Fist*

        Came here to say this, our driver’s license number was our SS up until the early 2000’s in my state.

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        1. Typity*

          A little quibble on Procrastinating Boss: If LW can get agreement to send the reports out a week after she lets PB know they’re done, it’s probably better not to give him a heads-up the day before the reports go, but just to go ahead and send them. Otherwise:

          LW: “Hey, I’m going to send those client reports out tomorrow, just letting you know.”
          PB: “Great, but let me just take a quick look at them first.”

          And we’re back in the same cycle. (Why, yes, I have worked for a PB.)

          Reply ↓
          2. fhqwhgads*

            I see what you’re getting at, but I don’t think it needs to restart the cycle. If the agreement is “I’ll send them X days after first submitting them to you for review. If no edits by then, it’s presumed good and goes out.” then the 1 day warning doesn’t change that. It’s just a reminder that there’s 1 day left to ask for changes. If Boss still doesn’t send any, it’s going out.

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      5. Not your typical admin*

        It’s amazing how less secure people felt they needed to be years ago when it came to social security numbers. When I was in 6th grade our teacher insisted we memorize it. She did this by requiring us to write it at the top of our papers instead of our names. And no one batted an eye.

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        1. Jamie Starr*

          I was going to write the same comment! My 6th grade teacher required us to memorize ours, too. So wild to think about a teacher trying to do that now.

          Reply ↓
          1. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

            I remember arriving at a new school for third grade, and they had my student ID number and SSN written out at my desk.

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          2. fhqwhgads*

            Yes and no. It’d be an absurd request now, sure, but if the majority of the class was born in the same state, and don’t have huge age gaps…their SSNs are all gonna be super similar anyway. Sure, not everyone, but the bulk most likely. I remember a kid I went to school with wore a necklace with his on the back of it. But it’s a necklace, so it didn’t always stay facing the right way. Anyone could learn his just by looking at him. I accidentally memorized his within about 3 days, because it was only 2 digits off of mine.

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      6. Observer*

        But realistically, there are so many legit uses for it that you can’t count on it as being secure

        Interestingly, there are fewer uses than there used to be. Many places that used to use the SSN, no longer do, and some of that change was forced by legal changes.

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        1. Coverage Associate*

          Example: I called my bank today and they verified my identity with my driver’s license information instead of my SSN. I hadn’t experienced that before but liked the change. (Except that I have my SSN memorized but had to pull out a copy of my DL. My bank cards were in another room where I didn’t want to disturb my spouse, so I couldn’t use those numbers.)

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      7. MigraineMonth*

        Depends what you consider a “legit” use. The United States has specifically chosen not to assign its citizens any kind of national ID number, and pretty much the only legitimate uses of the SSN under the law are to prove one is eligible to work, to pay SS taxes and to receive SS benefits.

        Yes, lots of other institutions and companies ask for it, because it’s easier to keep track of people with a unique ID number and it’s a convenient security question, but those aren’t really legitimate uses.

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      8. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

        When I was in college (so long ago, I don’t want to discuss it), my student ID number was my SSN. This was so long ago that nobody realized what a horrible practice this was.

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    2. Bunny Girl*

      That’s how my mom is. I remember when it became more standard to have online applications instead of paper ones, and she would throw a fit when she was job hunting and they would ask for the SSN. Any time I was applying for anything on the family computer, she would make sure to poke her head in and tell me not to put it on the application if it asked for it. (Really dating myself here).

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    3. Observer*

      I remember being raised with the maxim that I was NEVER to give out my SSN

      That’s still a pretty good piece of advice for many situations. But that’s the actual number, not the card itself. The card doesn’t really make that much of a difference.

      having to adjust when I started working and had to start actually agreeing to give it out,

      Yeah, it’s a shift. But don’t give it out at the application stage. Wait till there is an offer on the table.

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    4. Anonynon*

      If you understand the algorithm of the SSN check digit, it’s easy to give out a valid number that isn’t yours. I do this when asked for the number by an entity that really doesn’t need it; a dentist’s office, for instance. I don’t have dental insurance and will be paying cash, but their system requires a number. Easier to just put something into the field on their form.

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      1. The Editor*

        That can be really risky though. I could see doing that if you were sure it was a fake number, but if it ends up being someone else’s real SSN, it constitutes fraud.

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      2. The Editor*

        That could be risky though. It’d be fine if you were sure it was a fake number, but if you ended up putting down someone else’s SSN that constitutes fraud.

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        1. Coverage Associate*

          And it’s a kind of identity fraud that does happen on purpose so that people can get healthcare using someone else’s identity and insurance. Then health records get combined, and it gets medically dangerous.

          I don’t know that healthcare providers can require a SSN. As far as I know, they only want it because it makes collections easier if you don’t pay the bill.

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  7. Daria grace*

    #1 reimbursement of business related expenses is no more an perk that should be considered part of compensation than that they provide access to a photocopier in the office. Arguably even less so as you are doing them a favour by allowing them to avoid making up front payments or issue company credit cards

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    1. "It was hell," recalls former child.*

      Yeah, I was wondering how on earth the company imagined that reimbursing you for expenses you fronted it was somehow a “benefit.” Ah, the gaslighting.

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    2. Allonge*

      I really don’t think it’s about reimbursement of business expensese – it could be tuition, kids schools, qualification exams, or parking / public transportation to get to work which is otherwise your responsibility.

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      2. Colette*

        Yeah, I worked somewhere where I could submit fitness classes or gym memberships. I could also submit volunteer hours for payment to a registered non-profit.

        Reply ↓
        1. MigraineMonth*

          My org has a limited fund for athletic shoe reimbursement, so for a while there was fierce competition to be one of the first to submit your sneaker expenses at the beginning of the quarter. (Things have thankfully calmed down since we’ve moved to a lottery system.)

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      3. Smithy*

        Yeah – I know when my cousin started at some fancy law firm she was given funds for clothing.

        Given the dollar amount, there was a clear expectation that folks were not going to go to Goodwill or Walmart, but make sure they not only had tailored business formal clothing, but of a certain “luxury” level. Whether necessary or not, this law firm clearly believed it was so and was willing to pay for it. But I could certainly see other law firms informally or formally holding that standard, but then not giving that as much of a clothing allowance or any at all.

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        1. I Have RBF*

          That law firm was awesome. A “uniform” (required clothing) allowance is appropriate and should be mandatory when a company has a high end (eg business formal or safety specific) dress code. Want business formal? Give a stipend for it. Want steel toe, metatarsal protection shoes? Reimburse for them, or give a safety shoes allowance. Require only natural materials, or fire resistant clothes? Give a stipend for it.

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          1. Coverage Associate*

            For young lawyers especially, it’s becoming a thing where they only wear suits for interviews because few offices are like what’s described above. My firm collects interview clothes to donate to law students for this reason.

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    3. AlsoADHD*

      I agree that’s a silly part of TC but I’m guessing they’re talking like training reimbursement? That’s usually part of benefits in org calculations if there are defined allowances (for higher education, certification/recertificatuon, training experiences, or professional dues).

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    4. Amy*

      The way she said “reimbursement program,” I’d guess it’s not for business expenses. Because that would not be a program, that’s a requirement.

      For example, I can get reimbursed for $1500 of any type of tuition every year. An art class, a French class. I also can reimbursed for $600 of gym membership.
      There’s also charitable matching for up to $1K a year.

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    5. Nola*

      It’s not for business expenses.

      My company reimburses:
      Gym membership with pool – $1200 a year

      Bus pass – $45 a month

      Child day care or school credit – up to $6000 year per child (I think it’s a 3 kid max)

      There’s an additional wellness benefit separate from our FSA that qualifies me for monthly massages – approx $1200 a year

      Also, between our health insurance, FSA, HSA, and healthy incentive program, all my out of pocket medical expenses get reimbursed. Copays, meds, therapy, and specialists. Sometimes I don’t even have to submit a reimbursement form, I’ll just randomly get a check.

      My firm pays about middle range for my position. I’ve definitely seen higher salaries advertised. But between those benefits listed above, a 35 hour work week, and a realistic billable hour requirement – I’m definitely ahead on total compensation.

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      1. pally*

        Now if the company would reimburse employee’s rent, food bills, and maybe transportation costs and even utility bills, THEN they’d have something worth considering.

        Reply ↓
        1. Emmy Noether*

          You’re joking, but actually this raises an interesting point. Which is that cash payment is generally more valuable than benefits, even if they are nominally worth the same amount. And that’s because it gives you freedom, and because it can be invested. You can choose to live in a cheap apartment, eat ramen with ketchup and spend your money all on an Antarctic cruise (or invest in stock). Which you can’t do if you’re paid in food and lodgings. And tuition reimbursement and such is nice, but only if you qualify.

          So benefits have to be worth more to be worth the same.

          The tricky thing to consider is insurance. Because it could be worth 0 or it could be worth millions, and it also gives peace of mind, which is priceless.

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          1. AnotherOne*

            I work for a university. I’m in admin so this doesn’t apply to my group, but it’s relatively common when they’re trying to hire profs (especially ones they really want) to come to our high cola that they’re offer housing as a benefit. They own some VERY fancy apartments for the extra special profs.

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          2. JustaTech*

            This is sort of like when my company switched our gym benefit (which is 100% a nice-to-have) and they talked about how great it was, and the potential dollar value.
            Except the plan they chose had no gyms in our region.
            At all.
            So all it was for folks at my site was a website with some mediocre workout videos, and we can get better ones for free on YouTube. So then the “benefit” has a value of $0 for us, when it might be worth $50/month to folks at sites that actually had participating gyms in the region. (But you can bet the company wasn’t paying $50/month/person!)

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        2. Beth*

          I’d be nervous about taking ‘company reimbursement’ for this kind of thing, though! We tried a model of the company providing food, housing, and other daily-life needs. It went badly. Give me universally-usable cash over a company store any day.

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      2. Allonge*

        If benefits consist of free pizza, sure, but there are plenty that have actual monetary worth. My employer subsidizes school fees for kids of employees (makes sense for our setup). That ain’t cheap.

        Reply ↓
        1. MigraineMonth*

          That has real monetary value for some employees and not for others. A parent with one or more kids in that age range, and who would otherwise have to pay those fees, would get value from that benefit. Any other employee would get more money from the free pizza. This even applies to more standard-in-the-US benefits like health insurance and 401k matching; if you already have better coverage through a parent/spouse and can’t afford to donate to the 401k, you don’t get any value from it.

          (I’m not saying all benefits should give equal value to every employee, just that a lot of the “Sure we pay $65k, but your salary is really $75k because we provide $10k in benefits!” is complete BS. Unless you are cutting every employee’s existing out-of-pocket expenses by $10k, the math doesn’t work out.)

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          1. Allonge*

            Totally agreed that this cannot be just added on top of the salary for everyone!

            Just wanted to mention it as it’s just as good as cold hard money for a lot of people and that’s something the post I was reacting to doubted. (I don’t have kids, so not for me, but I know my parent colleagues would not say it’s nothing).

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    7. LW1*

      As others have guessed it is for personal expenses: medical costs, fitness classes, education/professional development, and certain software licenses for personal use, with each category allowed up to a maximum amount per quarter.

      Reply ↓
    8. Coverage Associate*

      I see the full explanation, but there must be non professor jobs with book allowances.

      Also, after the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, not just continuing education programs for accountants and lawyers, but non billable travel for conferences and other networking, would be work related expenses that could be reimbursed.

      Reply ↓
  8. Thepuppiesareok*

    OP5 every job I’ve had makes a photocopy of my social security card and driver’s license. This is very normal where I live. I wouldn’t refuse, although I think asking how the information will be safeguarded is fine. Sometimes when I’ve asked (or even been proctively told) I’m told that after HR confirms my information the copies will be shredded.

    Reply ↓
    1. londonedit*

      Yeah, it’s normal here to bring in your passport (or other form of official ID) on your first day of work, and HR take a photocopy of it which your line manager verifies to say it’s you. It’s about having the right to work in the UK – you either need to be a British citizen or to have a valid working visa, so you need to show a form of ID that verifies either of those things when you start a new job.

      We don’t have social security cards – we each have a National Insurance number which is used to track your tax/NI payments, but from what I’ve read here it doesn’t seem to be as big a deal as in the US (like, I think you’d struggle to steal someone’s identity if all you had was their NI number. It’s only really ever used for work/tax purposes).

      Reply ↓
      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        I’d also add that a lot of organisations here in the UK will ask to see your passport or other ID even before your first day, but after you’ve accepted a job offer. For my current and previous jobs, I had to go to the office and meet with my manager/the HR team just to show them my passport and get them to make a copy of it before I could start. Both of those were public sector roles though, so I’m not sure if other sectors work differently (I worked for charities/not-for-profits before that and I honestly can’t remember at what point in the recruitment process they needed to see my passport).

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          Ah, interesting – it’s always just been a case of ‘bring it with you on your first day’ in my experience, but it could well be a public/private sector difference.

          Reply ↓
        2. bamcheeks*

          AIUI, you’re taking a risk if you put people on the payroll before you’ve checked their passport, and most large organisations will have your start date, bank details etc already set up before your first day. If you get all that set up and then someone forgets it on their first day or it turns out they don’t have the right to work in the UK, and they started work or their first paycheck went through, you could be fined. So it’s safer to do it in advance. Smaller organisations are more likely to process all the paperwork on or after your first day.

          Also just going to note that none of this was the case before 2010– it’s not a “this has been true forever” thing, it’s specifically the late 2000s/2010s anti-migrant policies. I onboarded lots of people without their passports before that!

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          2. Elizabeth West*

            I’m in the US, but my company is multi-national and the security checks I went through before starting were gob-smackingly thorough, probably for all these reasons. They wanted EVERYTHING. I half-expected someone to knock on my door and ask me for a drop of blood!

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        3. UKDancer*

          Same where I am. We need to see the ID before people start and scan it in to keep on file in case the Border Force come checking. If it turns out they’ve not got the right to work here, then we don’t want them starting.

          The fines are significant if you employ people without the right to work in the UK so we’re always extremely careful to check just in case.

          Reply ↓
          1. londonedit*

            I’m more than willing to believe it’s another example of publishing generally being a bit more laissez-faire than some other industries (no one’s ever asked me for proof that I have any of the qualifications I say I have, either!)

            Reply ↓
      2. Texas Teacher*

        The US is weird in that passports are a national ID but not everyone has one. Birth certificates are used to establish identification, and those are issued by the individual states.

        Reply ↓
        1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

          Yeah, passports are only used/needed now if you need to go overseas. I’m 45 and don’t have a passport because the few times I went out of the country, it was to other countries that only required a state ID (state ID or driver’s license) to get back into the country. If I remember correctly, it changed and now you need a passport to get back into the country from ANY country, but I haven’t left the country since then.

          Getting a passport isn’t necessarily a hardship, but it’s not exactly easy, so I just haven’t bothered to do it and probably won’t unless I plan to go out of the country.

          Reply ↓
          1. bamcheeks*

            This is also true in the UK, but if anything moreso. Amongst middle-class people, you’ll have almost 100% passport coverage, and you have to go into really quite marginalised populations to find people who don’t have passports. That’s the worst of both worlds, because it means there’s little incentive not to use passports as basic ID, but it hits even harder on the populations who don’t have them. Which is how we ended up with the Windrush scandal.

            Reply ↓
          2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            I just got my passport for the first time, because I realized I may need it to vote as a married woman the way things are going. And… yeah, I’m willing to call it a hardship! Not only was it expensive ($180, all told), but I needed family information I’ve never needed before and didn’t have, like what town my parents were born in. Thankfully between obituaries and calls to other relatives I was able to fill it out, but it was a challenge!

            Reply ↓
            1. JustaTech*

              The good thing about getting a passport is that once you have one it’s much less work to renew than it was to get the first time. Although when you go from a child’s passport to an adult passport it still costs as much as getting a passport for the first time.

              I was delighted to be able to renew online, only and specifically because it meant I didn’t have to go to either the UPS store with the world’s meanest manager or the scary pharmacy to get my dang picture taken, I could just take my picture at home.

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          3. Starbuck*

            Some border states are exceptions – in Washington you can cross into Canada with just a enhanced state driver’s license.

            Reply ↓
  9. "It was hell," recalls former child.*

    OP1, your story reminds me of my first corporate job after college. Although I was not an HR person, my job as an editor fell under that department. About 6 years into my job, the HR department got a series of salary books for all industries in the US. (This was 1993–1994, so no internet.) Out of curiosity, I looked up the typical salary for my job, based on experience, years of work, skill level, etc. and discovered that I, with over 10 years’ experience as a meticulous editor, was getting paid less than someone fresh out of high school with no editing experience. When I presented this information to the HR director (a friend of the CEO with no actual HR experience), he said that those books didn’t apply to companies like ours, but rather to large corporations like GM and IBM.

    Reader, we were no mom ‘n’ pop shop. The company was a century-old international corporation with 6,000 employees.

    Reply ↓
    1. LW1*

      Yes, absolutely! The blindness around “we are still a small company, I swear” is mind blowing.

      I’m also an editor actually! My current role falls under the marketing department, but another source of salary woes in the past has been being classified as an “administrative assistant” and paid accordingly…. I’m sure you’ve encountered similar issues!

      Reply ↓
      1. "It was hell," recalls former child.*

        Whoa, LW1, me too! I started at the job as a temp administrative assistant right after college (unreasonable low self-esteem, the usual), and when they learned I was actually an editor, they offered me a combined job as the (competent) HR director’s admin assistant and the corporate magazine editor. After the magazine revealed itself within a year to be a full-time job in itself, the company ended up hiring a separate assistant for the HR director (who then got cancer, was fired for not being the CEO’s yes man, and was replaced by the incompetent church crony of the CEO, who was indeed a yes man…a Trumpian story for another day). Within a few years, the marketing department started giving me outside projects to write and design marketing materials as well as write articles for industry journals, and my job description was far fuller than it had been. But nothing happened to my job title and salary. I still got the ridiculous 1% to 1.5% COL raises everyone got each year. That said, I was only in my 20s, it was an extremely sexist company (engineering and construction), and I didn’t really understand how to construct a case demonstrating my value to the company—nor the need for one. Some months after this salary conversation with the incompetent HR director, I am the only person I know of who accidentally negotiated a lower salary for herself.

        He was incompetent but wily. I am older but wiser now. (And left the company for grad school about a year after the salary gaslighting.) LW1, try not to do what I have done! I believe that was the moral for “House of the Rising Sun,” but it works here, too.

        Reply ↓
  10. Free Meerkats*

    LW #3, how is your relationship with the reps at your clients? I spent a career as an environmental regulator and regularly had the environmental groups of larger companies use us as the push they needed to get things done that they knew needed to be done, but for one reason or another, (beancounters cough, cough) weren’t being done. It wasn’t unusual for them to essentially say, “Let’s look at this.” and talk about how it would be better if X was done, but they couldn’t get the budget. In my inspection report I’d strongly recommend that X be implemented, and if at all possible (like Y was worn out and needed to be replaced by X) require X be done.

    Anyway, chat with the rep you’re most friendly with and have him contact your manager and ask HIM where the report for Q4 is. I bet this roadblock will disappear.

    Reply ↓
    1. Artemesia*

      I think this is the only thing that will work and extra points if you can get them to be ‘angry’ at not having received the report.

      Reply ↓
    2. Miette*

      I was also wondering if there’s another person at the company whose eyes on the report would satisfy him. Are they financial figures he’s looking at? Perhaps if someone from that team signed off, he’d be satisfied? The idea being an alternative reviewer you both can trust (because a second set of eyes can’t hurt with something client-facing) so you can get these out in a timely way.

      Reply ↓
      1. blueberry muffin*

        I don’t think adding another person to the process helps anyone.

        Boss would want to see that person’s review. Thus adding more time to process that is already being delayed.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sandwiches*

          I don’t think Miette was suggesting adding another person; I believe they were suggesting *replacing* the boss in the process with someone else. So that the boss could be reassured that it had been double-checked by someone, but it wouldn’t fall on him.

          Reply ↓
    3. Mockingjay*

      This is what I came to say. Refer the questioners to your boss. Let him placate them.

      Now, this is likely going to ruffle Boss’s feathers. But that will give you the opening to have a frank discussion with him: “I send these quarterly reports to you for review, per your direction. These reports have time-sensitive info that our clients need. What can we do differently so these reports can be reviewed and sent to the clients quickly?” Throw in any ideas you have about process improvements.

      FWIW, every place I’ve worked had this kind of delayed review in some form by at least one manager. The key is to stop taking ownership of someone else’s problem.

      Reply ↓
    4. Turquoisecow*

      I was gonna say that if OP is getting emails with questions about reports, they should forward all of them to their boss so Boss can see that this is a concern for clients and not just something OP is complaining about. It could be Boss is thinking that this is not as big of a concern as OP is making it out to be but if OP forwards these requests on to boss then boss can see “oh, clients would like this information!”

      If OP doesn’t want to look unprofessional or like they’re throwing the boss under the bus, there’s no need to copy the client on the email, but just “hey I’m getting a bunch of emails like this, how should I respond,” might nudge boss in that direction. I’m a firm believer in, if there’s a backup that’s not my doing but I’m affected by, go back to the person causing the backup and make it their problem, because otherwise it will keep being a problem for me and not them and they won’t fix it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Turquoisecow*

        It also could be a case of a direct question/complaint from a client carrying more weight with the boss than from an employee.

        I’m imagining a situation like this:

        Employee: hey we should do this thing for clients
        Boss: yeah that’s true but there are other things more important.
        Client: I want this thing!!!
        Boss: drop everything to make this thing happen for clients!

        Reply ↓
        1. AnotherOne*

          That’s how my boss and I are currently handling prioritizing certain things. He only has so many hours in the day and there are things only he can approve.

          So for those things, if you make noise- you are going to get priority. That’s just how it’s gonna work right now. I flag for him that someone emailed, typically by cc:ing him on my response, and that issue moves up the to do list.

          Reply ↓
      2. blueberry muffin*

        I bring my own bias to this thread because of what I am going through. Definitely make it their problem.

        Boss may be threatened or greatly bothered by the fact that LW has good independent working relationship with the clients. So in order to be a “part” of the relationship, boss says they need to review the work before it can be released to client. (Please before you @ me, there are supervisors who are irrational like this and you cannot use logic with them.)

        Back to my situation, once I made it my boss’s problem suddenly they backed away from wanting to be so involved. Because being involved meant that my boss would have to explain to their boss why they were involved. It would not be well received.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mockingjay*

          I was going to add this point to my reply above, but couldn’t figure out how to phrase it. Thanks.

          Yes, managers can become jealous of or threatened by employee successes and relationships (team, client), even if the manager themself is a good one who fostered those employee successes.

          Sometimes you can “manage up” to alleviate the worry or share the success. Other times, like this situation, all you can do is kick it back to the manager and make it their problem again. It’s up to OP3 how much capital they want to spend to “fix” things.

          Reply ↓
    1. GammaGirl1908*

      In LW3’s shoes, I would schedule the time MYSELF and have the reports handy.

      That is, if it’s a quick thing, lean on that to get Boss to take those 5 minutes right now. But LW needs to shepherd this along herself instead of expecting Boss to remember to prioritize those 5 minutes.

      Like, if you have a weekly meeting, bring the reports to the meeting, in hard copy if necessary, and say, “It’ll just take a couple of minutes to look at these, so can we do it right now?” Or schedule your meeting to go another 10 minutes that week and use that time to place the reports in front of Boss. Or bring the reports and pull them out to point out a figure or ask a question, and then let Boss keep going with her review.

      But however you do it, YOU need to place the reports in front of Boss and put a pen in her hand and wait there expectantly. As Alison often notes, there’s a way to do this matter-of-factly and cheerfully and helpfully.

      If you let Boss say “I’ll get to it later,” later will never come if you leave it to Boss to schedule it. So YOU need to schedule the time, and make it easier for Boss to look right then than not to.

      Also and as a bonus, the more you do this, the easier it will get, because Boss will start expecting it.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, I worked at a company where we were given responsibility for getting our projects reviewed by our peers by the deadline deadlines without any authority to require our peers to review it. (Yes, it was dysfunctional.) We were explicitly taught the art of “badgering”.

        You’ve gotten the first steps, LW. You’re bringing it up with him twice a week. However, since that isn’t working, you need to keep escalating until he either looks at the reports or lets you go ahead and send them without review. You said the review gets buried under more urgent work? Nope, there is no more urgent work than the report your client has been asking about for a month. Create an artificial deadline (don’t lie, but say that the client expects it by EOW, which they definitely do). Schedule time with him and bring the reports to review. Show up at his desk and wait there until the review is finished. If you can’t do those for some reason, keep calling him and asking him what he needs you to do in order to move this along.

        Fair warning, this technique did come from a dysfunctional workplace, so you’ll probably need to adjust it to fit your workplace culture. The keys to this process are to never show irritation/frustration, to be collaborative in approach, and to not only persist but escalate. You are the “gentle brontosaurus” just standing next to his desk until he gets this one task done.

        Reply ↓
    2. All het up about it*

      In the dim past I worked as an admin assistant to one of the biggest micromanagers ever. I was supposed to send out form thank you letters to vendors who stopped by on occasion. He had to look these over before I sent them. He would always make one or two edits. But then I was supposed to give them back. And he’d make one or two more edits. Frequently it would happen a third time and he’d end up undoing previous edits! After I’d been there awhile, I said nope to that, I’d I’d generally send them after the first set of edits without giving them back and he never noticed.

      If I was the OP, I’d definitely be tempted to do something similar – though I also recognize that the risk is larger for them than it was for me.

      Reply ↓
    1. Marion Ravenwood*

      I now kind of want to change my username to Cash & Scones, which either sounds like a 60s country rock band or a Regency novel parody involving a bank heist.

      Reply ↓
      1. Teal Tshirt*

        I would read this book! I was thinking it might be a chapter/ episode of Jeeves and Wooster (w Hugh Laurie & Stephen Fry).

        Reply ↓
    2. bee*

      My company has a free cafe in our office that, among other things, regularly has scones. Can’t lie that it’s pretty nice, but also definitely not a substitute for cash compensation.

      Reply ↓
  13. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #1 You can’t pay rent or food with “benefits” and unless bonuses are 100% guaranteed – then why call them bonuses? – they are not part of your salary.

    Your employeer is shamelessly trying to bamboozle you to cover up their below market pay. Job hunt if you can.

    Reply ↓
    1. Malarkey*

      Ehhh we have a tuition reimbursement that wipes out student loan debt and that’s absolutely real money, if your health care pays 100% dental versus 50% that’s real money too. Some bonuses (like retention bonuses) are guaranteed.

      While you need to compare benefits for benefits you should absolutely be comparing your complete package when evaluating a job.

      Reply ↓
      1. A. Lab Rabbit*

        Yes, but if you’re not a student, then the tuition reimbursement doesn’t apply to you. If you have dental care through a spouse’s insurance plan, then that doesn’t apply to you. Benefits can be applied very unevenly, depending on personal circumstances, which is why base salary is the apples-to-apples comparison people should be making.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rook*

          That could make sense if you’re comparing compensation for a pool of people, but if you’re doing the comparison for yourself then it only makes sense to factor in your own circumstances.

          Reply ↓
          1. Rook*

            I mean, the uneven nature of how benefits can play out makes it *more* important to include benefits when comparing for yourself, or is there something I’m missing?

            Reply ↓
        2. doreen*

          I disagree – it’s true that I might not use tuition reimbursement or health insurance and in that case, those benefits are irrelevant to me. But for my entire working life , it would not have made sense to compare just base salaries. I needed to compare salary plus whichever benefits I expected to actually use. My husband’s insurance coverage was never better than mine, so when I changed jobs, I had to figure out whether the increase in pay was worth the increase in health insurance premiums. Which was a big difference – the employee share was calculated differently so at job 1, I paid maybe $50 a year and at job 2 it was more like $2400 a year. If I had wanted to leave job 2, I would have had to figure out how much more money I would need to to make up for my pension, or to make up for the difference in time off.

          Reply ↓
          1. A. Lab Rabbit*

            These things may be true if you are searching for a new job for yourself, but these aren’t relevant to LW’s position, where she is trying to negotiate for a higher salary with her current employer, in which case, this is an apples-to-oranges comparison, because she has no idea what kind of benefits those other companies offer. Even though her boss says they have great benefits, some of those other companies could have even better benefits. But how is she to know?

            Reply ↓
            1. doreen*

              The LW absolutely shouldn’t compare salary at other places to salary plus benefits at the current employer – but they should look into the the benefits offered by other employers to the extent possible. Alison is correct about the boss practically begging the LW to look at what the competition is offering – and that’s what should happen. Maybe it will turn out out that the competition has similar benefits and higher pay or maybe the higher salary comes with inferior benefits. I’ve known a couple of people who regretted not doing this- they left one job for another that paid a higher salary but didn’t account for the difference in benefits

              Reply ↓
          2. Pescadero*

            Benefits matter – as long as the salary meets some minimum.

            Below that minimum – being homeless and hungry with great benefits isn’t all that helpful.

            Reply ↓
        3. LW1*

          Right, the tuition reimbursement is real money but I don’t have student loans, so it’s meaningless to me. My manager referenced the dollar amount of reimbursements I’ve received so far this year, but past results are no guarantee of future profits, as they say…

          Reply ↓
      2. I Have RBF*

        Only if you have student loan debt or dental expenses.

        For example, benefits related to children are absolutely useless to me, 63, no kids, but priceless and needed for parents. This is why looking at “total compensation” is an exercise in frustration – sure, you have daycare cost reimbursement, gym membership, commute reimbursement and student loan payment, but none of those are things I use as an older, disabled, remote worker with no student loans.

        So that “complete package” would be mostly zero for me. That’s why base salary is the standard for comparison.

        Reply ↓
    2. Nancy*

      An employer paying for health insurance, commuter passes, child care, tuition, etc leaves you with more money for rent and food. Those are real monetary benefits. Career advisors even say to look at the entire compensation package when considering offers.

      In this case, OP cannot compare total compensation to a job ad.

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        It’s not OP trying to compare total compensation, but raw salary. It’s the Boss that is doing that, which doesn’t work.
        First off, it’s an apples and oranges comparison until you include the value of other company’s benefits. Maybe OP’s company truly does have-best-in-industry benefits worth five figures, but it’s highly unlikely that all of OP’s comparisons are providing no benefits worth zero dollars a year. If you assume even a reasonable average value for other company benefits, suddenly the math looks different.
        Secondly, does the Boss even have accurate information about the benefits of other companies? If he hasn’t changed jobs recently so his only point of reference is your company, he might believe the benefits are amazing even though they’re actually well within current industry norms.

        Reply ↓
      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        The thing is those benefits could be taken away. I’ve seen it where you were able to get tuition reimbursement but then the company changed the requirement and people didn’t qualify. Or they had free parking as part of a perk but then they started charging people.

        Reply ↓
        1. JustaTech*

          Yes- benefits can go away at any point (with the possible exception of health insurance). My husband’s company used to have astonishing benefits – dry cleaning and laundry, gym *or* sports equipment reimbursement (up to a $ limit, but still!), 3 meals a day, bus passes and free parking and free car charging, and on and on.

          Now they’ve cut back on most of those things (still get the meals but limited guests and dinner starts late enough it’s really only for people who are working late and not something to pack up and take home), and started charging a *lot* for parking.
          Most of those things were always only nice-to-haves, but the parking actually impacts our budget (or it does until the public transit opens next year).

          I’ve had the tuition reimbursement policy change drastically while I was in the middle of my program, which also wasn’t great.

          Basically, I can’t *save* my benefits the way I can *save* my salary.

          Reply ↓
      3. I Have RBF*

        If I don’t need commuter benefits, child care, tuition, then the value of those things is zero to me. So only the health insurance part counts in my comparison. Like the letter where parents were given significantly greater benefits, as a non-parent the kid related stuff in null for me.

        Even if I’d had kids in my 20s, they would be out on their own by now, so it’s not just non-parents that are left out by these, but empty nesters have no use for day care reimbursement.

        Now if they offered elder care benefits along with the child stuff, that would be good.

        Reply ↓
    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      They are only benefits if you actually use them. Some employees will use none of them.

      So benefits have very different relevance to each individual so fair comparisons of market salary should be on salary, whereas an individual considering a job offer should add up all the benefits which apply to them – if any.

      Also, I think the value of such benefits are much more likely to be cut if costs rise / org has financial woes, compared to the likelihood of a salary cut. They seem much less certain to me.

      (I admit I’m coming from my own European perspective where only comparatively minor subsidies such as gym and commute would be relevant, not health or education. so my view of this manager’s statement may be more jaundiced than a USian would be)

      Reply ↓
      1. Amy*

        The conversation about lower salaries in exchange for better benefits is usually about healthcare in the US. The average employer sponsored health insurance premium for a single person in 2024 in the US was $8K and for a family $24K. (source – the KFF annual survey)

        If you have an employer that offers 100% coverage (as in, you pay $0) that’s real money.

        Reply ↓
    4. Top Chef*

      I’m a bit older and will have a pension when I retire. I wouldn’t leave this pension system because I will make 75% of my income when I retire. That is a huge benefit.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I’m still mad that my lab closed after I worked there 4.5 years, when you need a minimum of 5 years at that university to qualify for the pension. I got the money back and rolled it into a IRA, but it was also at the very end of pensions, so even if I worked there again, I could never get a pension.

        Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      Definitely not part of base salary or base+bonus (ie. cash compensation). Benefits are great, but like you said, you can’t spend them.

      Reply ↓
      1. LW1*

        This concept of “cash compensation” is new to me and perhaps what my manager was trying to get at. This is the first company I’ve worked for that provides bonuses so I don’t know anything about how they’re usually handled. My bonus is definitely not guaranteed, though, no matter how consistent the company’s last few bonus payments have been.

        Reply ↓
    6. TGIF*

      Exactly! I’m concerned about the money I will have to LIVE ON. Benefits don’t mean much if you’re not able to pay rent.

      Reply ↓
      1. Amy*

        I’m on a hiring committee and we just had a candidate who is currently making $85K turn down a job for $100K. Because she currently has has fully covered health insurance and a pension.

        She’d actually have less after insurance and 401K even with the higher salary. She valued her benefits at $30K a year, so wouldn’t accept anything less than $115K. So it can really depend on the specifics.

        Reply ↓
  14. Thinking*

    May I suggest it’s more like comparing LW’s company’s bag of apples to another company’s apple pie. They are both apples, but there is definitely value added in the pie.

    Reply ↓
    1. Emmy Noether*

      More like saying “the other company uses more apples in their pie, but we sprinkle pecans on top!”.
      But, you don’t know the other company’s pie recipe. Maybe they also use pecans. Maybe their pecans are caramelized. Maybe they use hazelnuts. Maybe their crust is more delicious. They almost certainly aren’t serving only the apples with no crust.

      Now I want pie.

      Reply ↓
  15. Purple stapler*

    Letter 5 – objecting to an employer keeping copies of your documents or closely looking at rhem doesn’t look particularly good right now, given the current immigration situation in the US. It could be regarded as suspicious and maybe make someone think you’re not legally able to work in the US.

    Reply ↓
      1. Whoops*

        No, it’s unfortunately a very valid concern. Logic is not exactly the name of the game with this administration.

        Reply ↓
      3. Beth*

        This is probably paranoid for a white, English speaking American citizen. But it’s not crazy for a Spanish speaker who speaks English with a noticeable accent, or a nonwhite person with any accent, or a non-citizen resident. In the current climate, there are a lot of people who wouldn’t want someone out there who might remember something weird about their documents if ICE ever came asking.

        Reply ↓
  16. What the Knights in White sat in*

    LW#3…

    Currently, he hasn’t yet looked at my 2024 Q4 reports, and the Q1 reports for 2025 are now also waiting for him to check. . . . My clients have been asking for the 2024 Q4 reports for a couple months now and I have been giving them vague promises of “soon.”

    Telling clients that the reports are ready but I’m not allowed to send them until I get my manager’s approval makes me sound incompetent.

    THAT is the real issue. Your manager clearly prioritizes setting you up to seem incompetent over retaining clients. Can you go to HIS boss for direction?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hyaline*

      I’m confused why LW believes that saying she is waiting on manager approval makes her look incompetent. I mean, I get what she’s saying, that she doesn’t want to seem like someone who needs to have manager approval, but that’s actually really normal procedure. It mostly just makes ^him^ look incompetent. And that might not be a good look for external communication. however. He is being incompetent.

      Reply ↓
      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I didn’t get that part, either.
        Possibly OP feels that way because she words it as “I’m not allowed to send them until I get my manager’s approval”?
        But that really isn’t a problem – just say “It’s finished on my end but my manager wants to have a look at it first” or similar; not need to bring the concept of “being allowed to do something” into it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          I think she’s concerned that her inability to get her manager’s rubber stamp on these things may make her look incompetent. It’s not unreasonable to need manager approval, but it’s pretty extreme to have to wait four months (!!) to get that manager approval.

          Are there things I’ve been waiting on my boss for for six or nine months? Sure. But for the ones that are actually important/time sensitive, I can almost always get turnaround in less than a day. (To be clear, I think this is on the manager and not on the LW, but I get why she’s worried.)

          Reply ↓
      2. A. Lab Rabbit*

        Imagine what it would feel like if you worked at McDonald’s for five years making burgers, but your manager wouldn’t let you send any of them out until they inspected each and every one to make sure they have the correct number of pickles and the correct amount of onions. I mean, after five years of this, you should be able to do it in your sleep. And the boss still wants to review each and every one, instead of just sampling one or two or just flipping through them, or…I don’t know, actually trusting their employee to do things correctly.

        I totally get where LW is coming from.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hyaline*

          Yeah, I just think that *in reality* it reflects poorly on the MANAGER, not on LW, and any reasonable person would read it that way. I get LW’s anxiety, but it’s misplaced IMO.

          Reply ↓
        2. Turquoisecow*

          And then customers come up and say “where’s my burger?!” because it’s taken twice as long as it used to get served. Sayin “oh, boss has to inspect them first,” is going to make people think you’re a completely inept burger maker because how hard is it to make a burger that the boss needs to check and make sure you did it right?!

          Reply ↓
        3. Aggretsuko*

          I had to have every single email I wrote inspected for around three weeks. Could not send until I was permitted to send them. They backed up, I was days late in responses, I had to email probably 20-30x a day…it was humiliating to have to do that level of “I have to wait on my manager.”

          Reply ↓
  17. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

    I agree that for LW3 the only way to get your boss to move is to let him know the clients really want these reports in a timely way (if you haven’t already said this). It’s been months!!

    Side note – have you really never made a mistake in five years? Impressive!

    Reply ↓
    1. Reba*

      One thing I have done that works for me (sometimes lol) is to schedule a 30 minute meeting to “go over the documents together” and make your boss do the task at that time. You can’t really give your boss deadlines, but you can try to prevent him from putting the work off any longer.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elsa*

        Yes, this has always been my go-to when dealing with an unresponsive manager. Set up a meeting and go over it together. It’s much better than getting the client or the grandboss involved.

        Reply ↓
      3. JustaTech*

        I have a boss who periodically does this to himself in meetings with me – he’ll need to go over a document or presentation for a project I’m on so he’ll use some (or all) of our weekly meeting to go through it with me, even if I’m not the person who wrote the document, or the person who will edit it.

        It’s a little weird, but I get more insight on things I’m not always exposed to, and it means I know I can do the same thing to him when I need it done Now.

        Reply ↓
    2. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Side note – have you really never made a mistake in five years? Impressive!

      I took that to mean, never made a mistake with these reports which, depending on how complex or not they are, is completely reasonable. Which would also go a long way toward explaining why LW is frustrated that the boss is not dealing with these in a more timely fashion if that is the case.

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        It’s also possible that OP’s “never made a mistake on this reports” refers to technical or substantial comments.
        Like, maybe the reports don’t come back completely spotless of red ink, but the changes are minor typos, grammatical tweaks, consistency items, or things which are pure preference (e.g., whether to spell out “feet” or abbreviate as “ft”). The kind of stuff that it’s nice to catch and fix, but isn’t worth holding up the report for 4+ months.

        Reply ↓
  18. CutenessCentral*

    Having worked in multiple jobs where I’ve had on boarding responsibilities, it’s perfectly normal for employers to photograph ID to go along with the I-9. If you are queasy about having them photocopy your Social Security card (most employers ask for drivers license and Social Security card for the one ID from list A and one ID from list B option) you can provide a photocopy of the first page of your US passport as a standalone ID for the I-9.

    Reply ↓
    1. note reg I-9 docs*

      Just a note that employers have to allow employees to choose which documents they present for their I-9 verification, the employer can’t specify that. (Of course, that’s part of the anti-discrimination notice on the I-9 instructions, so who knows how that might change in the coming months/years.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Michelle*

        I request managers include a copy of page 2 of the I-9 form with the list of acceptable documents. Occasionally we will get someone who uses their passport, then HR requests a copy of their SSN as well, for record-keeping purposes. All of these stay locked in a file cabinet that requires a swipe badge to enter the area they are kept , a key to room and a key to file cabinet.

        Reply ↓
          1. Orora*

            It is. The employer doesn’t need a SS card in that situation. As long as you supply the SSN on appropriate documents (W4, etc) the company does not need your card.

            From a fact sheet from the Dept. of Labor (https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/ETA/oflc/pdfs/E-3_English_04_08.pdf):

            No, an employer cannot tell an employee what documents to present for Form I-9 purposes. Employers should direct the employee to the Lists of Acceptable Documents on the Form I-9. If an employee presents a document that is not on the Lists of Acceptable Documents, an employer should ask for additional proof of identity and/or employment authorization.

            Reply ↓
      1. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

        Not sure what you mean by show the original? My jobs have all been remote for 15+ years so I have never given a passport in person, just electronically

        Reply ↓
        1. Orora*

          Only in the last few years since COVID has remote approval been an official option, and that requires the employer be enrolled in the eVerify program. Employers are supposed to look at original documents, not scans or copies. A lot of businesses haven’t been strict because I-9 audits have been relatively rare, but I think a lot of them will tighten up their processes under the current administration.

          Reply ↓
  19. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

    While I do agree that comparing salary to salary+ benefits isn’t apples to apples, it could still be a difference maker if the health insurance, time off, etc are significantly better.

    It might not be cash but for someone who has medical issues or a family member who does, the right insurance can make tens of thousands of dollars of difference!

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      I’m sure the OP knows all this. The problem is, they have no way of knowing what the other employer offers for benefits but NEITHER does her boss, who is BS-ing this instead of having a real conversation with OP.

      Reply ↓
      1. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

        Oh yeah the boss is definitely BSing and that’s not a great sign. I’m not saying he was making any sort of good points, just that in general benefits can be a difference maker

        Reply ↓
  20. FashionablyEvil*

    #4–Even if you were able to get a job with your old organization, would you be working with the same people? Rehabilitating your reputation would be another serious hill to climb.

    Reply ↓
    1. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

      Yes, plus I was wondering why they want to do this in the first place, if they are already in a new job that they are excelling in? Just seems like a bad idea to try and go back – I would advise moving on!

      Reply ↓
      2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Maybe it’s “the one that got away”? The company is one of the best in their field, so they want to go back and prove they can cut it now.

        Reply ↓
      3. Starbuck*

        It was “one of the largest and best employers” in the field as LW says so probably there is something appealing re pay, benefits, what have you over the other smaller employers.

        Reply ↓
    2. Teacher Lady*

      THIS. Even if OP has very gracious former coworkers, they’re still likely to need to actively reestablish trust and goodwill that was broken. I can think of people I’ve worked with in the past who I’d be very reluctant to give another chance, because even knowing that they had extenuating circumstances, the reality is that they made my job much, much harder for many months. It would be difficult to not immediately think “Oh no, we’re back to this bad situation” if I saw them walk through the door.

      Reply ↓
    3. Antilles*

      I agree.
      At my first company, we had a co-op who was very subpar to the point it annoyed/angered a lot of people. Arrogant, refusing tasks, arguing with project managers, etc. He wasn’t actively fired, but he certainly would have been if there wasn’t a pre-arranged five month end date that made it easier to run out the clock. When a manager chose to hire him back post-graduation, the manager had to have a long discussion with each of them explaining things and it took a long time for the ex-intern to rebuild his reputation. Even years later, you’d still hear stories about how he was a terrible intern and while yes those stories included an epilogue of that he’d turned things around since, it was still never forgotten.

      Reply ↓
  21. Georgina Sands*

    #4 – I’ve fired someone for poor performance due to personal issues that I would gladly hire back, in the right circumstances. It’s certainly worth a try.

    Reply ↓
    1. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

      In this case though it sounds like the LW is already at a new job and doing very well. Not sure why they’d want to upend all that to go back

      Reply ↓
  22. DJ Abbott*

    #4- I don’t understand why you want to go back to your previous job when you already have a new one. Why not just stay in the new one and do well there, and move onward and upward?
    I can’t imagine the money or benefits would be that much better at your old one. Going back to your old company would be a lot of trouble to overcome what happened and depending on how long it’s been, might make you look like a job-hopper too. I think it might be better to go with the flow, and stay at your current job.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Because the old employer is the largest and best in the field. They probably would get more pay, benefits, and better work than other places.

      Reply ↓
  23. A*

    2: A guide for calling off work under sick time or PTO under these circumstances is thinking about if you are using the term “anxiety” clinically or colloquially.

    If you are diagnosed with anxiety or a related issue like flight phobia and underwent treatment for it, then I think you have more room to ask for this to be treated as a sick day.

    If you are using the term anxiety colloquially, have no formal diagnosis, and never sough treatment, then I think you have less room to ask for this to be treated as a sick day.

    A lot of people use mental health diagnosis in a casual way, the most common right now is “narcissism.” People call other people narcissists all the time and they probably wouldn’t know the DSM-5 if it hit them in the head.

    I know people are going to chime in here that there are legitimate barriers to diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. I agree! I would even say there are legitimate barriers to diagnosis and treatment of physical illness. I understand why people use clinical terms without a formal diagnosis. It makes sense. But when it comes to requesting a sick day from work, the specific question in the letter, I think you have to be dealing with the clinical term.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nancy*

      Or since it is one day, you call in and just say you aren’t feeling well and need the day off. No need to discuss anxiety at all.

      Reply ↓
      1. A*

        I agree, this is also an option. Just make very sure there are no details about your flight on any socials, even if you think nobody from work follows you.

        Reply ↓
    2. Tea Monk*

      I never understood the issue. If I’m having a panic attack that appears to be a heart attack, or an enhanced startle response it doesn’t matter whether I jumped through hoops or not. People who ” cured their ‘anxiety ” by facing their fears” or eating clean don’t have the same issue as someone with life long unremitting problems but are treated better and taken more seriously by people like you even though they are more likely to be using it colloquially than people who are experiencing problems and might need accommodations

      Reply ↓
      1. A*

        I would just be aware that terms like “anxiety” and “panic attack” have broad definitions. If you are asking for something at work using these terms then it helps to make sure everybody in the conversation is using the same definition.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tea Monk*

          It’s just that I feel that OP would be competent enough to know what anxiety is. People who don’t suffer from conditions might not know but people who do often seek out either information or treatment and thus tend to know more than people who don’t have the condition.

          Reply ↓
          1. A*

            My point isn’t about what the OP knows about their condition. This is about communicating about the condition.

            If the OP says “I need a sick day due to anxiety” the word “anxiety” will have a broad range of meaning to the person the OP is talking to.

            I am not doubting the OP has anxiety. I am saying the OP needs to communicate that clearly and the fastest way to do that is to indicate diagnosis and treatment.

            Reply ↓
    3. bamcheeks*

      Whether you are using it clinically or colloquially isn’t about whether you’ve got a diagnosis, though, but more about whether you’re experiencing physical symptoms that impair your ability to function. If I have a headache, it’s not a colloquial headache until I’ve told a doctor that my head hurts and got a clinical diagnosis of headache. Similarly, if someone’s anxiety about getting on a plane is so bad that their heart is racing, they are having visions of the plane crashing, they’re hyperventilating and they physically can’t make themselves get on the plane, that’s clinical anxiety regardless or whether or not they’ve got a diagnosis.

      It is different from someone saying, “I’m anxious about flying” and meaning they find airports stressful and worry about missing their flight, but it’s the physical symptoms and severity that make the difference, not the formal diagnosis.

      Reply ↓
      1. A*

        This is a fair distinction, too.

        I think what I’m getting at is there is a difference between saying “I feel anxious” in regular conversation and “I have anxiety” when requesting something at work. So if you are going to request something at work with this term, make sure you have something to back it up.

        Reply ↓
    4. Jackalope*

      This just seems to me to be a reason not to say why you’re calling in. A general, “I wasn’t feeling well so I couldn’t come to work,” should be all you need to say.

      Reply ↓
    5. metadata minion*

      I think that at the point at which you cancel a flight and decide to drive home instead, that comfortably fits in to the “this is probably clinical-level anxiety” category even if you’ve never been formally diagnosed.

      Reply ↓
    6. spcepickle*

      You are giving way too many details when you call out sick.
      There is no need for your supervisor to care if you are medically diagnosed with a phobia. Something went wrong, you can’t come to work today. End of story. Take your sick time.
      If it was a week of sick time, or I had an employee who never had enough sick time cover their absences I would have a different discussion with them.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tristan*

      Respectfully, I think you’re getting way too caught up in diagnosed vs. not diagnosed when that’s not relevant for a single sick day. If I tell my boss I’m calling in tomorrow for a migraine, it would be bonkers for them to request valid documentation of a migraine diagnosis for a single day of leave. The last time I had to take longer medical leave, I had to provide a doctor’s note saying how long I would be out, but even then it’s wasn’t the boss’ business what my diagnosis was. You shouldn’t have to “prove” your diagnosis to take a single day of sick leave (or ever, tbh).

      Reply ↓
  24. Cabbagepants*

    #2 I agree with the advice but disagree with the reason. You generally don’t need to tell your boss medical details of your sick day, so I wouldn’t worry about dodging stigma. In this case, however, you’re not directly missing work due to anxiety (your job did not book you that plane ticket) but due to being far away on vacation.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Yeah. LW, a person who knows that flying results in a high level of anxiety, booked a weekend trip involving getting onto a plane four times. They refer to a social obligation (I’m thinking of things like wedding) and I understand it can feel like the quick turnaround is the only way to handle it.

      But knowing this will not be a good experience, making different travel plans in future and giving yourself more time to manage would be kinder to yourself, more realistic, and not result in an unexpected absence from work. Instead, expect the absence.

      Reply ↓
  25. Account*

    Also in the US our social security cards are basically little pieces of heavy paper! They aren’t watermarked and hologrammed like our driver licenses or passports. I’ve always figured the info on it (ie the number) is the important part, not the card itself.

    Reply ↓
    1. Texas Teacher*

      I always think the number is the important part, until I can’t find the dang card and I have to physically show the original. So I guess the little piece of paper is important.

      Reply ↓
      1. Samwise*

        It’s very easy to order a duplicate and it arrives pretty quickly. Well, it was easy three months ago….

        Reply ↓
    2. Liz Bender*

      Fun fact! There are a number of security features used on the physical cards themselves, which is why you are sometimes asked to present the card.

      Reply ↓
  26. Bookworm*

    LW2: Quite frankly, the anxiety is understandable. There have been some deadly incidents and some super scary close calls so I don’t blame you for feeling that way. A good organization should have that understanding (despite that statistically it is still a safe way to travel, etc.).

    Reply ↓
    1. londonedit*

      That’s true, and with a reasonable company it wouldn’t really matter what the reason was – you could just say ‘Really sorry but I’m going to have to take a sick day’ or ‘Travel plans have gone awry and I need to tack an extra day of holiday on to my week off – I’ll be back in on Tuesday’ and it would be completely fine. And probably in most cases if you’re suggesting adding on an extra day’s holiday that would also be fine, because it’s your holiday to do what you want with. But in this case, where the OP wants to use a sick day, I can also understand how an employer might think ‘Hang on, they managed to fly TO their holiday destination with no trouble, and now they decide they can’t fly back?’.

      Again, I’m not saying that isn’t also understandable – something stressful could have happened on the way there, or they could be feeling tired or under the weather and it’s just all too much – but when it’s a holiday, i.e. something you’ve chosen to do and you’ve booked and you’ve chosen your method of transport, it does become a little more difficult to understand something that could sound a lot like ‘Yes I know I booked this holiday and I booked the flights and I was fine getting there, but now I need to take a sick day because I don’t want to fly home’. There’s a difference between ‘The airline cancelled my flight and I can’t get back until tomorrow’ (in which case you’d have to use a day’s holiday anyway, definitely not a sick day) and ‘I’m too anxious to get on the plane so I need to change my plans and drive all the way back, and I want to use a sick day to do that’.

      Reply ↓
  27. el l*

    OP1:
    If you work for a company where bonuses are consistently so much bigger than the competition that they warp a simple job salary comparison…you will know. Thats a business model decision and you’ll feel it in company culture. (Suppose the same goes for benefits, that’s rarer)

    Barring that, assume the competition offers comparable benefits, stick to salary. And don’t accept any insult to intelligence about reimbursements.

    Reply ↓
    1. sparkle emoji*

      Yeah, there are specific industries that do large portions of comp as bonuses(typically for higher level roles) and the bonuses are also typically discussed like the rest of the comp package. It wouldn’t be a surprise. The fact that LW’s boss mentioned it as a rebuttal here feels disingenuous unless LW neglected to mention they get 50% of their total comp in bonuses.

      Reply ↓
      1. el l*

        Exactly. If you’re in a job where your take home is mainly your bonus, say classic finance, then you’ll know to disregard salary.

        Anywhere else, no, boss is feeding bs.

        Reply ↓
  28. FormerLibrarian*

    LW 3, I firmly believe in not carrying water for my boss’s decisions. When they’re the problem, I’m no longer willing to let people think that I’m the problem. I’m not expert on your situation, but “My boss reviews all product reports before we send them to the client. That’s his policy. I unfortunately don’t have the Q4 reports back from him yet” is the petty way I’d start handling it.

    That said, I’m imaginary in this situation and exist free from any potential consequences.

    Reply ↓
    1. Myrin*

      I don’t think that’s petty at all, it’s just truthful!
      I’ve done this before and I don’t feel bad about it – if my boss is the bottleneck, he’s the bottleneck, and I don’t have any qualms about people knowing that.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hyaline*

      I admit my first thought was to begin copying him on any email inquiries from the client with a cheerful “thanks for checking in! I’m waiting on final approval in Q4, but I’ll get the report to you just as soon as I have that!” and see if that does anything.

      Reply ↓
    3. Your Local Password Resetter*

      I would agree, with a small caveat that you do have to frame it carefully. Your clients probably don’t care about any internal logistics or drama, and giving too many details or seeming to emotionally involved can cross some boundaries.

      But if it’s an appropriate level of information, then by all means tell them where the bottleneck is and what the expectations are!

      Reply ↓
  29. Mornington Crescent*

    You know it’s a hum-dinger of a letter premise when Alison basically starts her response with “lol no”.

    Reply ↓
  30. Scott - the grumpy one*

    LW3 – I would be a bit more assertive than AAM suggests.
    Story time: Some years ago I was in a position (US Navy) in which I had to provide my department’s training information up the chain of command to the Executive Officer (XO) for review. At one particular Department Head meeting, the XO said he had not seen my training binder in a couple months. I told him he hasn’t seen it in six months because he would take 2-3 months to get it back to me. He agreed to do better and it all worked out.
    In your position, I would tell my boss I’m sending the client reports to him for review as he requested and that I was going to send them out in a week whether or not I got his review. Then with two days before the deadline, remind him that the reports are going to be sent in two days so if he wants to review them first, he needs to move that up on his priority list. His reaction will tell you a lot about him and your relationship with him; both will have a lot to do with the success of this process change.

    Reply ↓
  31. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

    I don’t know how sick time works in #2’s company, but do you need to give specific ailments if you are calling in? Can’t you just say you’re under the weather or something like that?

    Anxiety is legitimate but it also sounds very vague to a boss who may or may not know what you mean.. They might think “tomorrow will they have traffic anxiety and need to stay home”, etc

    Not to get off topic but if every place had unlimited sick days as they should this wouldn’t even be an issue

    Reply ↓
    1. doreen*

      Maybe it still would be an issue even with unlimited sick days – because in this particular case a lot of people wouldn’t want to say they are “under the weather” as a reason for taking an additional day off right after their vacation and for whatever reason, the LW didn’t want to just say they missed their plane or something similar – presumably because missing a plane would require them to take a vacation day rather than a sick day.

      Reply ↓
      1. CTT*

        Yeah, this feels different from “I’m not feeling well and can’t come in today” due to the logistics involved.

        Reply ↓
      2. Trudy's Blue Summer's Dress*

        You’re probably right, I just don’t know how much detail you really want to go into about anxiety though

        Reply ↓
  32. Office Assistant*

    For no.3 I would forward the client requests for Quarter forms to your boss, with a, “when can I get your approval to send this out?” line

    cc- your boss into any replies and call a meeting to discuss the delays with the paper copies of the reports for his approval.

    Also, I would follow what another commentator recommended and start saying, “I will send this report out to clients on xx date unless you come back to me before then with feedback on recommended changes.”

    Reply ↓
  33. Scott*

    #5 – It’s odd to me the company would ask the employee for a copy. For the I-9 the employer should be viewing the original documents and either needs to keep copies of the documents with the form for everyone or not keep the copies for anyone. Also they can’t require you to provide a social security card. The employee only needs to provide a List A document, which most commonly is a Passport or a List B document (usually driver’s license or a state photo identification) AND List C (usually a social security card or birth certificate).

    Reply ↓
    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      If LW was remote, they may be asking for a photo copy for their records and doing their processes to legally verify the original document simultaneously.

      Reply ↓
    2. sparkle emoji*

      It sounds like they are keeping the copies for everyone in the filing cabinet referenced in the letter. I will say in my experience onboarding I obviously don’t require a social security card, but its often on my short list of examples because the most common document pairing I encounter is a drivers license and social security card.

      Reply ↓
  34. Jennifer Strange*

    #3 gave me flashbacks to two jobs ago when I was responsible for compiling some 70-80 reports on endowments to the donors who had established them or donated into an existing one. Around August or September I’d get all of the previous FY’s financial information from finance, get the particulars from each department on how funds were used (so for endowments focused on education here were our educational programs/initiatives, for endowments focused on public programing here were our public program offerings, etc.), put together the reports and send them to our Development Director. Despite this, they often didn’t go out until May (two months before the end of the FY). It was such an onerous task, and annoying that I was putting in so much effort to put them together in a timely fashion, but had no control beyond that (I was a lowly entry-level worker and the DD was my grandboss, so not a lot to do in moving the needle).

    My understanding is that after I left they stopped sending the reports out (or completely overhauled the process).

    Reply ↓
  35. Wembem*

    Anxiety by itself is not mental illness. It is a normal and healthy response to perceived future threat, which helps you either prepare for or avoid that threat.

    Reply ↓
    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      This is patently not true; there are several recognized anxiety disorders, including agoraphobia, panic disorder, selective mutism, and (surprise!) generalized anxiety disorder. These are treatable disorders, sometimes with medication, sometimes with therapy, sometimes with both.

      Reply ↓
      1. sparkle emoji*

        I think Wembem is differentiating anxiety the emotion from anxiety disorders, which are sometimes colloquially referred to as anxiety. They are technically right that everyone experiences anxiety the emotion and that it’s not necessarily negative or disordered in all cases, but it does appear that the LW was using the colloquial meaning to refer to a disorder.

        Reply ↓
      2. Saturday*

        That’s true, but I think it’s the “therefore” in this statement, “flight anxiety is anxiety and therefore a mental illness.”

        It’s possible to experience quite a lot of anxiety before a flight or other event and not have a mental illness, so it’s not clear to me that OP is saying they have a disorder. I would still say it’s a mental health issue, like nausea or a headache are physical health issues, even when there’s no chronic illness requiring accommodations involved.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bast*

          Anxiety disorders can, and frequently do, manifest in physical ways (racing heart, nausea, headaches, vomiting, dizziness) as well that aren’t entirely within your control.

          Reply ↓
          1. Wembem*

            Absolutely. But not all anxiety is an anxiety disorder. That’s all the point I was making. Saturday is right, it was the “therefore” that triggered my statement.

            Reply ↓
      3. Wembem*

        Yes, but not all anxiety is a anxiety disorder, is my point. It also occurs normally. And while I don’t want to armchair diagnose, a lot of people do diagnose themselves with an anxiety disorder too quickly when it is just normal levels of anxiety.

        Reply ↓
  36. Which_Sister*

    OP 5.

    I9 requires you to prove your identity (your DL) and your eligibility to work in the US (your SS card.) You can achieve the same result by using your passport. A US issue passport will confirm your identity as well as your eligibility without sharing your SS card.

    Reply ↓
    1. Zona the Great*

      This is what I do. I do not give out my SSN card to anyone except the SSN office. It says right on there that it is not to be used for identification purposes. I use my passport.

      Reply ↓
  37. cloudy*

    LW3, I second the recommendation to have it looked over during a standing meeting or potentially get it scheduled on their calendar so you can actively be there while it happens.

    I work in higher ed as the assistant to faculty members in administrative roles and sometimes wrangling professors into doing things can be a lot like herding cats. Catching them in person or in another synchronous method so you can be there until you get what you need may save a lot of the frustration.

    ‘Do you have a minute to go over the important documents with me’ and ‘Can I get some time on your calendar to go over the important documents’ are on my list of go-to tactics to get done what needs to be done when asynchronous methods like emails and frequent reminders don’t work. It helps to know who is likely to ignore requests so you can proceed directly to the back-up plan.

    Reply ↓
  38. SunnyShine*

    Lw2: I would just call out sick without a lot of explanation. And then in the future, add an extra day of vacation to allow yourself time to get home.

    It sounds like it’s a one off, so I don’t think it’s worth going into that much detail. When I was a manager, it took me a long time to realize that people used sick time when they weren’t sick.

    Reply ↓
    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      I agree. It wasn’t a work trip; it was a “weekend social obligation”; it’s not unusual for people to get sick after a bit of travel due to food/water/surrounded by strangers/etc.

      “I had to travel to (insert name of distant city here) over the weekend, and now I’m a bit under the weather” sounds like a very reasonable reason to call out on a Monday to me.

      Reply ↓
  39. CzechMate*

    LW 2 – I think a lot of people would understand if you said you had a flight anxiety issue, and if it’s a common thing, you *could* ask a doctor to write a letter explaining you have a flight phobia (I have a good friend who has done this). Not everyone “gets” anxiety, but I think a lot of people understand and empathize with flight phobia.

    Failing that, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying something like, “I wasn’t able to fly for health reasons–I’m fine now, I just need an extra day” or “I unexpectedly got sick on the return trip and just need to call out today” or something to that effect. Alison’s right that saying you had a travel snafu is a safe option, but I also think most people would understand if you say you took ill on your way back and don’t go into all of the details.

    Reply ↓
  40. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    LW2: I see nothing wrong with calling in with a vague “sick day” without elaborating on the reasons. That wouldn’t raise red flags for me as a manager at all, and even if I knew the reason, I’m not inclined to nickel and dime people over a single day here and there.

    A few things would make it more of a red flag for me:
    – If you have a habit of booking vacation time that doesn’t realistically account for your needs on travel days, and you’re routinely using last-minute medical leave to compensate, in a job where coverage matters (2-3x a year would be enough for me to have concerns about the pattern). This is less about whether flight anxiety is a legitimate use of medical leave and more about making sure your coverage plans are aligned with your actual needs. (I had one direct report who would always tell me she was coming back to work the day after her 26-hour, three-leg flight from India to the U.S. after family visits. She literally never in five years, doing this trip 4x per year, made it back to work that day. I started requiring her to book an extra day to account for the jet lag so we could plan for coverage, but I did let her use medical leave for it.)
    – If you have something particularly important that needs to happen on your first day back. Like, if you booked travel with the expectation of returning the day before leading the company’s biggest event of the year that you manage, this would be a big deal.

    Reply ↓
  41. A*

    1: I have a different opinion on LW1.

    I don’t think the boss has to justify the salary to the LW. The boss offers a compensation package that includes salary and benefits. The LW counteroffers and the boss turns that down.

    Now the LW’s only choice is to take what is offered or apply at a competitor that looks like a better deal. That is the ball that is in the LW’s court.

    It feels like the LW is getting into their boss’ head a little bit too much about this. Take it or leave it. The boss’ mentality doesn’t really matter.

    Reply ↓
  42. CrazyCatDude*

    LW2 – Unless your company micro-managers your sick days and require you to provide details, I would just take the sick day and keep it vague by saying you weren’t feeling well. I don’t think that would be a problem in most workplaces.

    Reply ↓
  43. AD Collins*

    Reading the benefits letter reminded of a time in the 80’s when the small college where I worked told us we wouldn’t be getting raises and then sent us a list of all the benefits, besides salary, that we got for working there. My favorite benefit was that there were pay phones on campus.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      But not free phones, apparently. Good grief.

      I’ll say that when I worked on a campus, library access to the robust ILL in higher ed was definitely a perk. But it wasn’t a benefit.

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        Yes, the one thing I miss from my university job is JSTOR access. I used to download and read studies for fun…

        Reply ↓
    2. And thanks for the coffee*

      Did they have bathrooms? And free water from drinking fountains? I’ll bet AAM readers could think of other usually unrecognized benefits.

      Reply ↓
    4. I Have RBF*

      My favorite benefit was that there were pay phones on campus.

      WTF? How is that a benefit?

      I have to laugh when we get some email touting all the “wonderful benefits” we get, and 90% of it is useless to me.

      Reply ↓
  44. Maple Cheesecake*

    Everything else aside, I love how hard Allison is working to make “Feed two birds with one scone” a thing. I’ve definitely started using it!

    Reply ↓
    1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      Yes! Must remember for weekend open thread — substitutes for other old-timey expressions that are mean to animals. Beat a dead horse, more than one way to skin a cat, etc.

      Reply ↓
  45. spcepickle*

    #4 – I have interviewed people who have let go from my organization before. I am looking for is a brief explanation in the cover letter of how you have moved on, so you medical issues that have been resolved is great. I am also 100% going to bring it up in the interview, I will ask what you learned and how we will avoid the issues in the future. If you can answer those questions I would see you as strong candidate. I don’t think there is any harm in applying.
    But! Institutional knowledge is long and rumor mills are strong – We tell stories in my office about people who were fired, and if you were to come back you would need to overcome everyone you work with knowing about a crazy hard year. Unless there was something very special about your old group and you felt like you had some real champions who could speak on your behalf and help change the rumors, I would work elsewhere.

    Reply ↓
  46. Kay*

    LW2: As you know you have potential anxiety around flights – can you simply make plans to drive/travel differently in the future if it will continue to be a problem? Or come up with strategies so this doesn’t impact your ability to travel?

    As an employer I’m not going to have an issue with flight anxiety (presuming the job doesn’t require constant travel), but where it could be an issue is the business impact of that. Cancelling and re-booking flights, rescheduling client meetings, etc. starts to have direct and indirect financial consequences that most employers are understandably going to want to mitigate.

    Understandably there is a risk of employers not being understanding about the flight anxiety, but on the other hand they may also not be understanding if canceling travel becomes a pattern.

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    1. Purple Stapler*

      I’ve worked places in the far past where if you called in sick the day you were supposed to return from vacation, you lost the vacation pay. Wouldn’t surprise me if some employers still do that.

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  47. Lunchtime*

    For LW3, could you get the boss to agree that you will send the “draft” version to the client (clearly marked as such) and that once he shares feedback, you’ll upgrade it to the “final” version? And then whether or not the final appears becomes moot?

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  48. Orange You Glad*

    Related to letter 1 – I HATE when companies use your bonus as a reason not to pay you more. Every conversation I’ve had with my boss about salary (either for myself for my direct reports) always starts with pointing out that we get a bonus. He refuses to acknowledge that our bonuses are not guaranteed and also don’t change much when looking at our monthly income v. expenses. In 16 years I’ve had bonuses that swing between $500 and $20k with many years getting 0. My industry is very much tied to whatever the current economic climate is, so our highs and lows fluctuate with the market. Not to mention all the times someone higher up arbitrarially decides my division doesnt deserve fully funded bonuses at the last minute. I can’t qualify for a higher mortgage or loan on the chance I may get an additional amount every February. Bonuses are appreciated, but very much an extra that can’t be planned for.

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  49. Seripanther*

    LW#3–in addition to the many excellent strategies suggested, what about a deadline?

    “I’ve finished the quarterly report. I plan to send it on [date some three weeks hence], so that should give you plenty of time to review and make any changes.”

    In writing. And hopefully, since there’s no way Boss will admit that this generous amount of time will still not be enough, you can hang onto the “Thanks; will do!” email. And the weekly reminder emails. And then you can just send the reports, when you said you would, having given a generous, well-communicated, well-documented comment period.

    I might be overly optimistic, but it might force Boss to either review, let the reports go without reviewing, or lose face.

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  50. librarian*

    It’s so confusing to me when people ask about whether or not something counts as a sick day. Can’t you just say you’re not feeling well and need to take a sick day, with no details whatsoever?

    I’ve had an anxiety disorder my entire life and I’ve called off of work countless times due to anxiety. In my thinking, it’s not my employer’s business what my sickness IS, just that I AM sick.

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