I still have to work if I don’t attend team-building, boss has hired my replacement but I’m not ready to leave, and more

by Alison Green on April 17, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. If I opt out of team-building activities, I still have to work on those days

I work for a small nonprofit with about 25 employees. Recently, we have begun “employee engagement” activities, like visiting local attractions. These activities take place during work hours. We are not forced to participate, but if we choose not to, then we are expected to work while those who do want to participate are basically paid to hang out at a local attraction, restaurant, etc.

I don’t enjoy these kinds of group activities, but I’m not trying to keep anyone from going if they wish to. I don’t mind staying at work, but I am expected to cover for another employee (who always chooses to do the engagement activities) instead of being able to do my own work. Am I just a party pooper or is it weird for some employees to be paid to goof off while others are being paid to work? Am I wrong to think I shouldn’t have to cover for someone else when no other employee is expected to do that?

I don’t think it’s unreasonable. They’re offering these activities because they believe they serve an organizational purpose: team-building. If you prefer not to participate, you don’t have to (which is actually better than at some organizations, where you’d be expected to attend regardless) — but they’re not going to just give you a day off, because that doesn’t provide any value to the org.

That said, if covering for people who aren’t there means you have an unrealistic workload that day, you should talk with your manager about adjusting the expectations to match the staffing on those days. But if it’s more just about being annoyed by the principle of it, you should let it go.

2. My boss has hired my replacement but I’m not ready to leave

I am actively looking for a new job and communicated this intent to my bosses as we have an open communication relationship. As is their right, they started to look for my replacement, which they found and have since hired. I am still actively looking for a job and have given no notice of my intended departure date. What are the obligations to me of my current employer given that I have not quit my job and there is someone we are on-boarding right now for my job?

For a relationship with open communication, it doesn’t sound like there’s nearly enough communication going on! (Or at least not unless there’s been a lot more discussion of this than what’s in your letter.) You need to talk to your manager and you should do it right away. They may be assuming you’re leaving any day now … or they may assume it’ll be months and figure it’s fine for there to be overlap for that time … or they may be okay with a little overlap but at some point are going to expect you to set a clear end date or will do it for you.

When you alerted them that you were planning to leave, they may have jumped the gun — but this is also why it generally doesn’t make sense to alert your boss that you’re job-searching until you’re ready to give notice or at least have a very clear timeline in your head. Your manager should have clarified that with you before they hired a replacement! But it seems like they didn’t, so here we are. Now that this is in motion, they can set your ending date for any time they want, so talk with them ASAP and figure out a plan for what happens next. Be very clear that you don’t have any firm plans, had not intended to give formal notice, and don’t want to leave right away. Ideally they won’t respond to your early heads-up by pushing you out sooner than you want to go … but there’s a risk that’s in progress and so the sooner you figure it out, the better.

Related:
employee said she was leaving and has been replaced, but now doesn’t know when she is going to leave

3. How to implement a policy I don’t agree with

I am the deputy lead for my department. I manage 13 people directly, and two of those people are managers themselves, each with a team of three. The team works a hybrid schedule, with most people choosing to work from home once or twice a week. There are no set days; we have a lot of flexibility. All staff have laptops and other required equipment at home.

My company has a policy that when office PCs reach the end of their lifespan, they will not be replaced. Instead, staff will be given a docking station and are expected to use their work laptops at home and in the office. This policy was announced a couple of years ago, but this is a large company (~20,000 staff) and it seems my predecessor did not inform the team at the time as it didn’t impact them. Now I have been told that our office PCs are end of life and we will be getting docking stations soon.

My team are livid! For example, those with chronic health conditions can currently choose to work from home if their condition flares up. But if their laptop is in the office, they won’t be able to work from home. They have also questioned what happens during bad weather when they cannot get to the office, but cannot work from home because the laptop is in the office. I have raised this with the department manager and his answer was that they will have to take the laptops home each day and bring them back the next day if working in the office.

My team doesn’t want to carry laptops back and forth every day, especially those who walk or cycle. They have raised concerns about whether they are responsible for the equipment on their commute, what happens if it gets broken or stolen, and if they won’t be able to go out and socialize after work as they will be lugging a laptop around. I agree with all these concerns! I have raised them with the manager, who said that staff are responsible for keeping equipment safe. He also said this is company policy and we have to follow it.

How do I navigate this when I agree with my staff? What language can I use to say I hear you, I agree with you, but we have no choice? Or should I be taking a difference stance and projecting to the team that I agree wholeheartedly with this?

“I agree and I’ve made that argument, but unsuccessfully. So for now this is the policy and we do need to follow it.” You don’t need to pretend you disagree with them, but it’s also not helpful to contribute to people staying in a state of agitation about it. You want more of a middle ground — “it’s not what I would have chosen, but at this point we don’t have the ability to change it, so let’s figure out how to work within it.”

(That said, can you at least argue for keeping the PCs until they truly can’t be used anymore? I can’t tell if they’re removing them all when the docking stations arrive, but if they are, that might be a spot where you have room to change things.)

Related:
how managers should communicate decisions they don’t agree with

4. Fixing grammar and spelling mistakes

I’m a leader of a medium-sized team in technology in a large, corporate environment. We’re in the U.S. but for a lot of team members English is their second language. When I see spelling and grammar mistakes in presentations that I’m reviewing, is it better to quickly fix it myself (easy to do and quick, although not the point of why I’m reviewing as I’m more focused on the content) or leave a comment (which feels nitpicky and takes longer but maybe that will help them learn)? Or do nothing? I do not judge their performance based on what is clearly a language barrier, but I also want their writing to be clear and easy to understand for their audience.

The main job duties are not writing but in a large company, we make a lot of slides and more so as you move up in leadership.

It’s a judgment call. All else being equal, I’d fix it and leave a quick, matter-of-fact note about what you did (like “changed ’there’ to ’their’” or so forth) but if there will be a lot of those sorts of edits in a single document, I’d just fix them all and then include one note with feedback about any common patterns if you saw any and if it seems like it would be helpful.

If what you’re reviewing is in a format that allows for something like Track Changes, that’s ideal but not always possible.

5. Companies that don’t provide offer letters

I’m interviewing with multiple companies and received a verbal offer via phone call from one company. Typically, I’m used to this being followed up by a formal electronic offer letter. The hiring manager indicated that is not the case, and that the details of the phone call are the offer letter. I mentioned this to another employer who I’m in a last interview round with, and they informed me that this is how it’s done at their company as well.

I am very experienced in my field, and I can vouch for the legitimacy of these companies and interviewers. This is the first time I’m working without a formal offer letter since the early 2000s. Have standards changed?

Nope, there have always been companies that don’t send written offer letters. It seems strange when you’re used to getting them, but it’s always been a thing.

You can absolutely say, “Would it be possible to get the details of the offer — salary, benefits, title, and any other relevant information — in an email so I can look it over and be sure I’m getting all the details correct?” Alternately, you can write that email yourself and send it to them, framing it as, “I just want to summarize the details we’ve discussed.”

Related:
an employer told me they don’t provide written offers

You may also like:
{ 739 comments }

{ 739 comments… read them below }

  1. Soontoberetired*

    on #3, we haven’t used PCs at work in 7 or 8 years. I have not heard of anyone losing a laptop, breaking a laptop while commuting, or anything else like that . I thought this was the norm for industry.

    1. Jackrum*

      I am also very surprised that this is not the norm ! I live in a European country and we all have docking stations. Yes, it can get annoying to commute your laptop by bike (especially in the summer months) but it wouldn’t make sense to buy two computers for every employee !

      1. allathian*

        Indeed! My husband’s lucky because he does have two computers, a desktop at the office and a laptop he uses at home and on business trips. But he’s the only person I know who has this perk.

        1. KarenK*

          I have a laptop I use at home and a PC in the office. My supervisor has asked me more than once if I’d like a docking station instead of a PC, but I’ve turned her down for just this reason. I work from home 2-3 days a week and don’t want to lug my laptop back and forth.

          1. LadyVet*

            I actively dread the day I’d have to switch to a docking station, as I don’t live close enough to my office to go home to drop a laptop off first, and a lot of venues in NYC don’t have bag check.

            I could see it making sense if people are commuting by car, but it just doesn’t any other way.

            I currently have a desktop in-office and an employer-issued laptop for remote days.

            1. lanfy*

              I commute by train and a half-hour walk. Carrying a laptop is a non-problem, but then I don’t go out in the evenings much, and the last couple of offices I’ve worked at have been 24-hour access.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                I have no idea if my office is. I would need to check (somehow I’m doubting it; it seems to get sketchy in the area after dark). But I almost never go anywhere on weeknights except straight home.

                1. Kevin Sours*

                  When I’ve had 24/7 access to an office it’s been locked after hours but with a badge scanner to allow people in. (Not everybody had 24 hour access but I was a “could conceivably be called in for emergencies” list). So I wouldn’t assume that a sketchy area would preclude after hours access.

            2. Sandwiches*

              I’m also in NYC and have carried a laptop back and forth since before the pandemic, but I’ve never had a problem going out after work. I just put my bag next to me or under my chair or at my feet if we’re standing at a high table. I always see people with bags no matter the venue, so it’s possible to figure out!

              1. Carl*

                Same. I’ve literally carried a laptop back and forth to work every day for 17 years. Never had an issue.

                Key, though – I’ve always been able to arrange for the smallest/thinnest laptops.

            3. CoffeeTime*

              I walk half an hour to work, it’s really not an issue.
              Maybe once in a blue moon is it a pain, but it’s really not hard to plan around and makes way more sense than an employer buying 2 computers for every employee.

              There are a lot of perks to hybrid work and the little bit of extra planning it occasionally comes with is truly not that big of a detriment compared to the positives.

            4. metadata minion*

              I walk to work and while I almost exclusively work in the office, it wouldn’t be more than a bit annoying to carry my laptop back and forth. I almost never do things on weekday evenings, though.

            5. L*

              Did this in NYC for years. Never thought twice about it but maybe just because I am an introvert and was almost always going straight home after to work to relax, even with a long commute. If just going out to dinner or something, not any more hassle than carrying a large purse. But I can see if you’re walking long distances or going out and doing lots of other things how it could be annoying.

              1. L*

                I’ll add that I’d occasionally just leave the laptop in the office if planning to go out after work, but I’d just take that as a signal to not log on from home trust night and not work remote the next day.

        2. Ann O'Nemity*

          It’s pretty rare! I’ve heard of a couple execs who get both a desktop and laptop as a perk, and a couple creatives who still need a powerful desktop for production. But the latter is getting less common. Laptops today are more powerful than ever, and in many cases, they can handle software that used to be desktop-only territory, like AutoCAD, Adobe Creative Suite, and even 3D rendering.

          1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

            Yeah my director has a laptop at work and an ipad and then another laptop at home. But it makes sense for her roll.

          2. AngryOctopus*

            Everyone at my job has a laptop, and carries it back and forth when necessary. If you think the weather will be bad, you just carry it home with you so you can WFH if need be. As many commenters have said, 99% of the time it doesn’t make sense for everyone to have two computers just so you don’t have to carry a laptop sometimes.

        4. NotAnotherManager!*

          I have a tiny team that has this set up, but it is for very specific technical and security reasons and not employee convenience. Our IT department has actually asked that we not tell people we have this setup so they don’t get a bunch of complaints and I-want-it-too! from other users. Even though I have a desktop in the office, I often have to bring my laptop in anywhere for meetings/presentations.

          Our organization, which is not cutting edge, moved everyone to laptops and docketing stations 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I think this is not an unreasonable policy issue by OP#3’s employer and just the norm now. If their laptops are not portable, that’s an issue, but the last two my employer have provided weight about the same thing as a hardcover book and are slimmer/easier to slide into a backpack or tote bag. We’re in DC, so we have a lot of public transit and walking commuters as well as bike commuters as well – they put it in a pannier or a backpack to ride home. I think this is a weird thing to push back on in 2025.

      2. March*

        It’s what backpacks are for, isn’t it? I bike to work and carry my laptop in a backpack. Zero problems (and I’m not particularly healthy or in shape or anything).
        Honestly, I was a little surprised at the first-worldness of this question, but I realize that it’s more a matter of what work norms one is or isn’t used to than of spoiledness.

        1. Agree*

          I came to say the same thing. I’ve carrying and cycling laptops for close to 15 years in 3 different companies with backpack or bike bag. It’s absolutely doable.

          Otherwise I agree with the boss. If one wants the flexibility to WFH, it is a little ask to carry the laptop. The company cannot be expected to buy/maintain a double set of equipment for their employees that is only used 50% in return.

          1. Hearts & Minds*

            I agree and also wonder if them protesting too much will result in “fine, everybody back to the office then.”

            1. Corrupted User Name*

              That was my first thought as well! I would be pretty upset if I was pressured to return to the office because one team thought carrying a laptop between home and work a couple times a week was a hardship. For what it’s worth, I’ve been “laptop only” for close to 10 year through several different jobs as have almost all my coworkers. Even people who work in the office more often than not have laptops/docking stations, and I’ve never heard anyone raise it as an issue.

        2. The Prettiest Curse*

          I only have one work laptop and walk to/from work in all weather conditions, including snow and pouring rain. Somehow the laptop has survived!

          However, if ergonomics are a concern, this OP should do their best make sure that people have access to ergonomic mice and keyboards and larger monitors both at home and the office. I have terrible eyesight, so definitely need a larger monitor in both work locations.

          1. TeaCoziesRUs*

            Maybe also offering a nice backpack or bike pannier that people can choose might also be a balm? It doesn’t have to be incredibly expensive, but you can get some great ones for $50.

            I just wish more companies would realize adults want our Lisa Frank backpacks back and make them adult sized.

              1. Summer*

                @Elizabeth West – OMG yes! Those sparkly light-up sneakers are amazing and I’m just upset that they weren’t around when I was a kid. Hell I’d wear them now if I could find a pair ;) I did have a fabulous pair of purple glitter jelly shoes as a kid so I’ll have to console myself with that memory!

        3. bamcheeks*

          Same— I have a bike basket, so when I’m cycling I just put my backpack in there. And yes, it should absolutely be the case that the organisation covers the risk of theft or breakage whilst commuting if you are expected to take your laptop back and forth. I think that’s very normal, and you should clarify that with your management, LW3.

          I have also never heard of people having work laptops in addition to desktops! It was always desktops only for is until the pandemic, and then the switch to laptops and the expectation that we would take them home at the end of each day. I don’t think this is at all a weird expectation LW.

          1. CeeDoo*

            I haven’t had a desktop computer in 13 years. We used to have 2 in each classroom for just-in-case, but we’ve been a 1-to-1 campus for 13 years. Other than the engineering, animation, etc classes that use desktops because they can’t use chromebooks, no one in the building has a desktop.

            1. Selina Luna*

              My school is one-to-one, and some people seem to have a desktop with a dual-screen situation (everyone has the possibility of dual screen, just they have two big screens, and I have one big screen and one small screen). The teachers all have laptops (well, MacBooks. Beggars can’t be choosers), while the administrators have laptops, desktops, and iPads. The only graphics-intensive classes are out at the technical high school, and they have desktops specifically for the kids in those classes. The architecture kids (really, carpentry and designing sheds) do everything on paper, even though their teacher is a decade younger than I am, because someone somewhere decided that making them plot everything on paper was a better learning experience than doing things in CAD. I used CAD in school, so I’m not sure what they’re getting at.

          2. Office Plant Queen*

            I’ve also never experienced people having both a desktop and a laptop, but I’ve been in the work world since 2018 and have only ever had a work laptop with a docking station. Working from home wasn’t a big thing pre-pandemic but everyone did on occasion for the “a plumber is coming to my house today” type of situation.

            1. doreen*

              I did, sort of ( I don’t think a thin client is technically a desktop) – but it was because of a few issues that aren’t common. First, most people did not have a laptop although everyone had a thin client so me not having one would have involved removing it. Second, I actually wasn’t allowed to work at home by my choice – not to wait for the plumber , not instead of taking a sick day. So why did I have a laptop? So that I could access information nights and weekends because I did have to answer phone calls and make decisions even when I wasn’t working. When IT said I could either have one or the other, my preference was to keep the thin client, but I told the person to talk to the assistant commissioner three levels above me who decided I had to have a laptop and I ended up with both.

            2. The Rural Juror*

              Many employees (including me) had both a desktop and a laptop for many years (my desktop was taken away in 2024). We run software that needs a LOT of computing power and for a long time it was more economical to have a powerful desktop and a “companion” laptop that you use to remote into the desktop for those programs. In 2023 they finally worked out which laptops could handle the RAM and all that without being $$$ or weighing a ton. They started phasing out desktops at that point. When we moved office locations in 2024 they finalized getting rid of all desktop machines.

          3. AngryOctopus*

            Yep, we have tons of desktops everywhere, but they’re attached to lab equipment! Anyone who works here has a laptop, and I have not seen any exceptions here. I work at a largish pharma company.

        4. WheresMyPen*

          My whole company has laptops since Covid as we mainly do hybrid working, and we all manage to carry them into central London on public transport, on a bike or walking. They are heavy but a good backpack helps. If someone genuinely struggles with carrying it maybe there’s grounds for an accommodation?

          1. Snow Globe*

            I bought a small, rolling computer bag, because of back issues that make carrying the laptop difficult. Wouldn’t work on a bike, but otherwise, it works just fine.

          2. MusicWithRocksIn*

            I don’t have hybrid, but my work is accommodating about working from home if you are a little sick or have an emergency, so I take my laptop home every single day, because you never know when your kid is going to pick up a bug. I would rather have it with me and know i’m covered if something comes up than the slight freedom of not hauling it back and forth every day.

            1. Laura*

              Same situation; I really only work from home when I have a sick kid or a mid-day dr appointment (hour+ commute so makes no sense to go to work, come home, and go back) but I take my laptop home every single day so that I have that flexibility if something comes up.

            2. L*

              In the past, I’ve worked places that had a back up option to log in through a secure portal/VPN from a personal computer for those occasional situations where you forgot to bring your laptop home. It didn’t allow access to all software so wasn’t great for every day but was a good option if I hadn’t brought my computer home and realized last minute that I had to work from home because furniture was being delivered or whatever.

          3. amoeba*

            Or get lighter laptops (at least as an option)? My old one was kind of a brick, so pretty annoying to carry around with me – so when it was time for a replacement, I went for the ultra-light, 14″ version, which is only around 2 kg. That one fits in almost any bag without any issues! I do still leave it at the office when I expect to come in the next day – and yes, that has led to one or two cases of having to go there just to get the laptop/asking a colleague who lives nearby to drop it off at my home when I had to WFH unexpectedly. That’s OK, it was a bit annoying but all worked out in the end and it’s a risk I take when leaving the laptop overnight!
            The only way I could see this as annoying is if they only had huge, heavy laptops available for everybody and still expected employees to always carry them around.

        5. Rusty Shackelford*

          they won’t be able to go out and socialize after work as they will be lugging a laptop around

          Agree with @March – this is very much a first world problem.

          1. CoffeeTime*

            Literally though – and also, how often are you going out somewhere that you literally can’t have your backpack? Is it mildly inconvenient? Sure, but it’s totally doable.
            And if it isn’t? Then just go into the office the next day.

            How often are we really encountering a situation where you’re going out at night and can’t bring your backpack after work AND it’s super difficult to go into work the next day? (and no, being hungover doesn’t count in this situation, that’s your own doing!)

            1. Gumby*

              The one instance I can think of is – I sometimes go to sporting events at a local university after work and they have a clear bag policy. But I make sure that I either work from home on those days so I can leave the laptop there or plan to work from the office the next day so I can leave it in the office.

              I think that this mostly falls under “we don’t like change” rather than “this is unworkable.” Once OP’s team starts actually doing it this way I predict that they will adapt quickly.

              Also, backpacks with padded laptop sections are everywhere now. I needed a backpack recently for a trip and ended up with a laptop section even though I didn’t need one because that was just what was available.

          2. AngryOctopus*

            Also, leave the laptop at work and then stop in to pick it up (IF you are WFH the next day). Otherwise, just come in.

            FTR, I’ve lugged my laptop around, and even ended up with it at the ballet, where I had to check my backpack because they changed the rules. And it was fine! I have confidence that your people can figure it out, LW.

          3. Wendy Darling*

            I’ve been going out after work/school and socializing even though I was lugging a laptop since the mid-2000s and it’s honestly fine. Most of the time I just bring it along, tons of people are out after work sitting at the bar with a backpack or a messenger bag between their feet. At this point I drive to work so sometimes friends/coworkers stash their work gear in my trunk if we go out. If I’m going someplace close to my work I leave the laptop there and double back to grab it before I go home. I’ve met friends at their place near where we were going out and just left it there.

            Is it inconvenient sometimes? Yeah. But also I get to work hybrid and that’s VERY convenient so, yanno, peaks and valleys.

        6. Jamjari*

          Panniers. I realize everyone who cycles has their preference but they leave less sweaty back in the summer.
          I’ve never had both a laptop and a desktop. That said, I was in jobs where I was expected to work from the office unless there was some really extenuating circumstances so I would often leave the laptop at work.

        7. I Have RBF*

          When I worked in-office, especially open plan, I would have to carry most of my office back and forth – laptop, keyboard, trackball. The office provided docking stations and monitors at work, but everything else I had to schlep. Most companies that have provided me with laptop have also given me a laptop backpack to carry it in. Even if I turned in the laptop, I got to keep the backpack.

        8. Love My Laptop*

          Absolutely! I have a hiking day pack that I use for work, either cycling or walking and it fits and protects my laptop well. If I go by bus then I’ll use the laptop bag. It’s never been an issue going out after work etc, it’s just like managing a handbag really.
          Carrying a laptop is really normal here (Australia) and if someone or a group pushed back like this it would be quite unusual.

      3. Earlk*

        Same at mine apart from one employee who has a back injury and so has a PC and a laptop but laptops are hardly that much of a burden to carry in to work everyday if you don’t have a physical reason to not- and I walk in.

        1. Blueberry*

          Agreed. LW, you mentioned that some of your employees need the flexibility to work from home on short notice due to chronic health conditions. If those health conditions also prevent them from being able to carry a laptop, then they could probably ask for a second computer as an accommodation.

          Otherwise, I don’t think this new policy is unreasonable! If your employees want to be able to decide on the day if they’re going into the office or not, then they can take their laptop home every day. If they don’t want to do that, then they’ll have to plan to work from home at least a day in advance so they’ll know to bring their laptop home. Sure, it’s a little less convenient than having two computers, but not particularly restrictive either.

          1. Another Alison*

            This is what happened on my team. They all work a hybrid schedule, and at our last round of computer updates were issued laptops and docking stations. One person had medical concerns about carrying the laptop back and forth and was accomodated with a desktop in the office and a laptop for home.

          2. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Pre-plague, we had a security expectation that everybody took their laptops home at night. You had to get a special exception and locking cabinet in order to leave it at the office.

      4. Scott*

        That seems to be bananas to me as well. I think the issue here seems to be more that the staff may just be struggling to make a change and that the policy hadn’t been communicated to them when it should have been

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          This. Apparently every other department long ago figured out how to make this policy work.

          OP, you need to talk to other managers to see how they handled the issues you’ve laid out so you can explain that to your reports. I doubt your department is the only one who has the problems you laid out but they managed to figure it out.

          1. NotAnotherManager!*

            Yes, all of OP3’s questions seemed like very easy things to just ask a peer about, especially the damage policy, how other team who had to switch ages ago managed it, and any challenges they’ve run into with the switch. The way it’s presented in the letter sound very much like communication and change management issues, not like this change is going to actually impact anyone doing their job. (I’d actually be kind of embarrassed if my team kicked up a big fuss over something so normal and think OP3 needs to be mindful of not enabling this mindset and resistance to change.)

        2. Margaret Cavendish*

          This is what I was thinking as well – a lot of this sounds like general change resistance rather than specific concerns about accommodations.

          It might be helpful for OP to group them in this way, and have two different strategies for dealing with them: specific accommodation requests for those who need them (likely each person will need a different accommodation), as well some Change Management 101 for the whole team.

      5. Productivity Pigeon*

        Same!

        The only stationary PCs I know of are in either the Armed Forces in their SCIFs or other incredibly sensitive/secret contexts.

        Even most hospitals use laptops and docking stations.

          1. Quill*

            Yeah, for all of my labgoing career, desktops are single use machines attached to much more expensive machines. The internet has often been removed and they’re running an OS that i went to grade school with, because that’s when the super expensive equipment that cannot be upgraded to a modern OS (without buying new and sometimes not even then) was purchased.

      6. Toplap*

        The laptops!

        We don’t leave our machines in the office for security reasons and also because…work doesn’t end when we walk out the door!

        Honestly, though – a 13” MacBook in a backpack is so manageable – it weighs less than, say, a lunch. And it’s so nice! You don’t have to worry about VPN-ing every time you need a file (I assume that’s what they’re doing?), it’s all right there!

        1. Thomas*

          On the other hand if employees have previously left their laptops at home all the time, they COULD be large and heavy ones that suited that use case but are ill-suited to daily travel. My own employer issues 15.6 inch laptops as standard (but of course the C-levels can pick something different!) and I’ve grumbled about the size, and there’s bigger ones on the market.

          1. H3llifIknow*

            Ugh we used to have the IBM “ThinkBricks” that were ruggedized and so.damn.heavy. But on Tech Refresh they were issuing new lighter Dells or HPs. Slim, lightweight. And I wanted one! I kept praying my laptop would break. And finally at the Dallas airport the impatient man behind me shoved his carry on forward and knocked my laptop (before PreCheck when I had to remove it from the bag) off the rollers. I rejoiced (internally–externally I scowled at the ass) as I picked it up, until alas, I turned it on and it booted up and worked perfectly fine. Had the damn thing another year.

        2. Wendy Darling*

          I have a workstation laptop that claims to be 14 inches but is about the same size as a 15 inch macbook and half again as heavy, and it is annoying to lug it around but I make it work. Goodness knows I’ve done my grocery shopping wearing a backpack with that thing in it enough times.

          Honestly even though it’s a gigantic, heavy monster compared to other modern laptops it still weighs less than the laptop I carried for most of grad school just because laptops are way smaller now than in the mid-2000s.

          1. KateM*

            My grocery shopping is 90% of time heavier and 95% of time bulkier than any laptop I have ever had. When I am biking to grocery store, I need to keep in mind that I have to fit what I buy between bike rack, bike basket and my backpack.

      7. Another Kristin*

        You can buy a bike pannier with a built-in laptop sleeve, this is what I use when I commute by bike with my laptop. One device per user is the norm in most companies with good asset management, however it is usually a shock for users when they’ve gotten used to having more than one!

        In answer to Alison’s question about why they can’t just keep using the computers until they are truly unusable: October 11, 2025, the Windows 10 end-of-life. If any of these computers are Windows 11-incompatible, then they have to be taken out of usage before then or the company is placed at a much higher cybersecurity risk (or has to pay through the nose for extended support). It’s not reasonable to expect your company to shell out for a bunch of new desktops just because you don’t feel like putting a 1 or 2 kg laptop in a backpack.

        You could always advocate for a supplemental BYOD policy if your company doesn’t already have one that would let your employees use their personal devices for WFH. This would probably also make people unhappy as they might have to buy or upgrade their existing home computers but it is an option for those who are insistent that they can’t possibly carry a laptop around.

        1. higheredadmin*

          This is me. I have an ancient desktop that isn’t Windows 11 compatible and when it dies its death I will have to replace it with a docking station for my laptop, and join the folks who carry their laptop to and fro. We are technically only allowed one computer per person but have got around this system with “office” desktops – a loophole that will close. OP, I feel you! It’s a dang delight to have a desktop at work and a laptop at home. Like the glory days when you had a work cell phone/blackberry and a personal cell phone, so nobody from work ever called or texted on your personal line.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Haha, I had a Best Buy Insignia Windows XP desktop PC with a CRT monitor until 2019. What a moose that thing was. When the support ended, I kept it strictly offline, but I still used it for random stuff now and then.

            When I took it to the recycler, I told them “Hey this still works fine; I formatted the hard drive, and if you know someone who’s running XP programs on a disk, hit them up.”

      8. Brank*

        Agreed. I work for a medium size (~1000 employees) in Chicago and we only have laptops and only ever have. People just bring their laptop home daily. It is a pain when I bike but I am careful.

    2. Thepuppiesareok*

      Same. The response I’ve always gotten is if you don’t want to carry the laptop with you then you need to only work in office. If you choose to do this you still need to take home with you when bad weather is anticipated or plan on taking PTO if you can’t get in. Unless you get an accommodation to only work from home. You get to decide what’s best for you: hybrid, work from office, wfh (if approved for accommodation), or you look for another company with a different policy. Once I started doing it I stopped thinking about it after the first couple of weeks. It became as routine as taking my lunch and purse with me.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        One thing which annoys me about my job is that I usually work from the office, but I have to take my laptop home with me every day, and it’s heavy and bulky, especially if I am carrying other things, such as grocery shopping.

        1. Beany*

          Do you do heavy processing/number-crunching with the laptop? If the weight is an issue, it should be possible to find a much lighter machine. Macbook Air would be my first suggestion — though if your office is Windows-only that might not be an option.

          1. amoeba*

            There’s loads of similar ones from other companies – ours are Dell and are around 2 kg only at 14 “. They fit in almost any backpack and are seriously hardly noticeable when you pack them.

            1. mango chiffon*

              I have a pretty light Lenovo to the point I sometimes panic and think I’ve left my laptop at home while walking to the bus stop with my backpack on.

        2. Clearance Issues*

          my work laptop can run AutoCAD and Revit and the thing’s a brick. I love the functionality I just REALLY hate carrying it. I use a backpack when I have to travel, either just between home and work or between offices. (I tried a messenger bag in college and ended up starting to get back problems)
          A lot of my coworkers don’t need the CAD functionality so they have nice sleek laptops; when my coworkers in another office saw mine they were shocked it was so dense.

          1. Bubbles*

            I work in IT and we have programmers who use multiple apps, some use AutoCad as well, but their laptops are not any heavier than the others. What matters is the processor, hard drive storage, and ram. What model is your laptop, and how old is it? Have you asked your IT department if they could provide a lighter weight one? I could not imagine having to carry around a laptop that gave me back problems.

            1. amoeba*

              Yeah, the one I have now is actually the one with maximum performance and it’s still super light! That does come at a price though, but certainly worth asking. I think a lot has changed there in the past few years, the model I got before this one (like, four years ago) was a super heavy brick. This one’s a lot faster and weighs about half as much.

              1. The Rural Juror*

                This. Technologies have evolved and laptops with great processing power have gotten lighter and less expensive. We use AutoCAD and Revit. When it finally made economical sense, our IT department began the push to get us all on laptops instead of desktops machines. Hardly anyone complained (even me, who usually left my companion laptop at home every day I went to the office). The laptops we have still weigh more than one with less processing power but a lot less than they used to!

            2. Pescadero*

              What matters most with CAD is not processor, hard drive storage, and ram.

              #1) Display size and resolution
              #2) Display size and resolution
              #3) Display size and resolution
              ….
              #100) GPU performance

              Big, high resolution displays eat batteries… and big batteries equal heavy bulky laptops.

          2. Shades*

            Ha, my coworkers laugh at my laptop for this reason, although my CAD program is Creo these days. I’ve dropped mine and dented a wall and the laptop was perfectly fine.

          3. Annie*

            I agree with others below. My laptop runs CAD (well, a 3D modeling program) and yes, it’s a little bigger and heavier than other laptops that peers have that don’t require 3D modeling programs, but it’s still pretty light.

            I think it does depend a lot on how old your computer is and what size laptop you’re using. These days you still get a lot of functionality and power with smaller laptops.

      2. NameGoesHere*

        Even leaving laptops at the office isn’t allowed at my work anymore after we had a break-in over a weekend and they stole something like 60% of the office’s laptops because people had left them on their desks. I think some people do still leave them in the provided lockers, but the policy is to take it home every day.

        1. KateM*

          One workplace gave everyone a security cable and you were expected to have your laptop locked to your table if you were not there (even if you went to get a coffee or use bathroom – this of course meant you’d have it locked all the time you were in office). Security personnel used to walk through the rooms now and then and steal unsecured laptops.

            1. Rebekah*

              I read that more as “steal” the laptops and you’d have to trudge down to the security office to get your laptop back along with a security protocol lecture. My last job had a similar procedure for paperwork left on your desk overnight. (All our paperwork had sensitive personal information)

          2. Llama Llama*

            ‘Steal’ or actually steal? For a while my work was taking unsecured laptops from people’s desks and wait until the employee reported it to give it back. It was obnoxious and they finally stopped that practice.

            1. KateM*

              “Steal”, of course.

              So it was obnoxious to keep your data secure? Did your workplace stop other obnoxious things like phishing tests as well?

            2. Don’t know what to call myself*

              We had a similar problem with people leaving their screens unlocked when they were away from their desks. When managers saw it, they would send an email from that person’s account letting everyone know they had left the screen unlocked and reminding us of our security policy. People learned their lesson and they don’t do that anymore.

          3. Hannah Lee*

            @KateM I actually kind of love this:

            “Security personnel used to walk through the rooms now and then and steal unsecured laptops.”

            A little part of me would love having that responsibility as part of my job. I would get a carton of some oddball thing/unnecessary plastic object (like small rubber ducks or troll figurines) and leave one on the person’s desk when I took their laptop. Don’t want to get trolled? Lock your laptop like you are supposed to.

        2. Emmy Noether*

          I must say it is kind of weird to put the responsibility of keeping work equipment safe on the employees. You’d think it was solidly in the company’s purview to do that. Is someone also tasked with taking the coffee machine, the video projector / TV screen, and manufacturing equipment home overnight?

          I always leave my stuff expressly in the office when I’m on vacation because I don’t want the responsibility.

          1. Thomas*

            Agreed. Especially as if a work laptop is stolen from an employee’s home, vehicle, or person then there’s a lot less clarity about whose insurer is responsible and chance it’s not insured.

            A locking drawer or cabinet, or a Kensington lock, in the office is the correct solution.

            1. Sarah*

              My work laptop was stolen from my home (I was not at work at the time). It wasn’t worth making a claim on the companies insurance due to low value. They just bought a new one for me. My homeowners insurnce surely wouldn’t have covered company property, and I didn’t make any claim for similar reasons.

              Overall, replacing the rare stolen / damaged laptop is more cost effective than ensuring a laptop for home and a PC/laptop for work. I imagine saying that it is the employees responsibility really translates into the employee needing to make reasonable decisions around it, not that they’d actually bill you to replace your computer. If they would, then it is a serious policy issue.

          2. Amy*

            Having a work laptop that I take home every night has been the norm for me for 10 years or more – but unless someone is WILDLY negligent with their equipment, I’ve never seen a policy where the employee is actually held responsible for it being damaged/stolen. Maybe some companies have official policies like that, but mostly when someone says “my laptop won’t turn on”, the IT folks don’t really care about why, they just try to fix it and if they can’t, order you a new one.

    3. lyonite*

      Same, this is very standard in my industry. Honestly, I don’t know anyone who has a separate computer at work (monitors, etc, yes). With a good backpack, a transit commute isn’t that bad.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        It really depends on the laptop and the weather. When I was usually in an office but would sometimes work from home, I HATED carrying my laptop three miles round trip to the train station, especially in the summer. Yeah, it’s not THAT heavy, but it’s the difference between a backpack you hardly notice and a backpack that is an annoying weight that sticks to your back and makes you extra sweaty.

        When my laptop got replaced, I had to turn down the model with a bigger screen because it would have been obnoxious to take anywhere. None of my coworkers understood it — but they all had cars, and didn’t have to go fix problems in our other office all the time.

      2. Zombeyonce*

        And all the problems the people brought up (“whether they are responsible for the equipment on their commute, what happens if it gets broken or stolen, and if they won’t be able to go out and socialize after work as they will be lugging a laptop around.”) are issues the company should be communicating about with equipment handling and security policies.

    4. KeinName*

      Agreed, same here (European public sector). No one thought to complain that they have to take their laptop home. If someone does get spontaneously sick but can still work (like a positive COVID test), we sometimes have a team member bring them their laptop while on the clock. Granted, that concerns those who live in biking/bussing distance.
      Though as every purchase is made from taxpayers money, and comes out of our yearly unit-budget, people wouldn’t expect two machines per employee.

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        I’m Swedish and I’ve never heard of ANYONE having two laptops like that.

        Well, I’ve had both a company and a client laptop as a management consultant, but then I had to carry both around ;)

        1. I Have RBF*

          I have two laptops for my current job, but that’s because I support two different organizations that are under one big corporate umbrella. Using two laptops is actually a pain in the ass because my desk doesn’t have enough space for both.

    5. Seal*

      To my embarrassment, I broke my new work laptop at home. When I plugged it in to charge I put the laptop on the floor under the outlet, which was in a corner and in theory out of harm’s way. A few hours later, I managed to drop my iPad corner first directly on top of the laptop. The iPad was fine, but to my horror the laptop had a sizable dent in its metal cover and a broken screen. Fortunately the laptop was still under warranty so our IT department didn’t have to pay for a new screen. They assured me that I wasn’t the first person to break a work laptop (but I may have been the first to do so with an iPad).

      “It’s under warranty” remains one of my favorite phrases.

      1. KaciHall*

        I broke my screen with my W2 (tax document). For some reason, when I got it at work, I stuck it in the laptop pocket of my backpack. When I put my laptop in later that day, somehow the thick paper got between the screen and keyboard and bunched up, which broke the screen.

        My office responded by banning us from taking our laptops home, which absolutely defeats the purpose.

        1. Beany*

          I’m wondering whether the IRS Form 1040 Schedule C is the right place to list business expenses caused by IRS documents.

      2. KateM*

        But this could have happened at work as well, couldn’t it? You didn’t inherently break your work laptop because you were at home.

        1. Seal*

          True. But I was always far more concerned about someone stealing my work laptop when I took it somewhere than breaking it at home by dropping something on it. Those iPads are sturdier than they look.

        2. Margaret Cavendish*

          This, exactly. You can’t eliminate ALL the risks – laptops get dropped or get coffee spilled in them in the office, just the same as they do at home.

          You could reduce (but not eliminate) the theft risk by keeping laptops in the office all the time. But then you have a different risk, of people taking PTO instead of WFH if there’s a snow day or a sick kid or some situation where they can’t be in the office but could otherwise work.

          There’s also a reputational risk to consider. If OP’s department (including OP themself, apparently!) keeps fighting this battle, they will develop a reputation as being stubborn, old-fashioned, out-of-touch. And there are consequences to that as well. I’m not OP obviously, but if I were the head of a department of 20 people, in a company 1000 times that size, I would very much *not* want to stand out as The Team That Refused To Change.

      3. Productivity Pigeon*

        God, it reminds me of when we’d JUST gotten brand new iPhones at work. Like maybe three days earlier.

        I was walking home from the office in downtown Stockholm with my phone in my coat pocket and my headphones plugged in and suddenly the music stopped…

        I rushed home but they’d already managed to take the phone offline.

        It ended up not being a big issue at all, I just filed a police report and told my grandboss and got a new the next day. No one was angry or anything.

        But I felt TERRRIBLE and so careless!

        1. lunchtime caller*

          We switched to a two phone system at work (basically everyone needs a work mobile separate from their personal) and the executives are losing them constantly. On ski slopes, in Ubers, needing new ones overnighted to them while the old ones are wiped, etc. No one even hints that an employee might have to bear the cost for these things, but I guess maybe if it got truly out of hand they would take a bite out of the department’s budget or something.

          1. amoeba*

            Yeah, here as well, it’s pretty clear that if a laptop is lost/stolen/damaged, you’ll be provided a new one – paying for it myself would not be something I’d accept, honestly!

      4. Smithy*

        I will say to the point of breaking it – a) the point of it being under warranty is very relevant but also b) that was always a risk in the office. Things like someone spills a beverage or drops xyz heavy thing at a bad angle.

        Then for things not under warranty – i.e. theft – the cost of replacing a laptop usually just isn’t that much. Particularly if you’re team is using products like Lenovo Thinkpads. And quite frankly if your team is living in a context where they are that exposed to theft, that is a whole other dyanmic. But for most folks, things like leaving a laptop on a table in a coffee shop while you step away briefly to grab a napkin and it gets snatched, or having it in a car on the way home and someone breaks into your car during a stop to do an errand. Those are scenarios that while deeply unfortunate, they don’t happen to most people super regularly because there are a lot of basic lifestyle changes to address that kind of common theft. Which all goes back to helping people be reminded of best practice with data storage on work computers, but also accidents and life do happen and a workplace is prepared to address those moments.

      5. NotAnotherManager!*

        I dumped an entire cup of coffee into my brand new laptop and fried the keyboard, and IT was entirely unfazed by it. It was (by far) not the worse thing they’d seen, and I don’t have a history of losing/killing my company-issued stuff. Their favorite is when people bring in obviously damaged good and then claim to not notice or have no idea how it happened.

    6. NCA*

      I work in End User Support IT, and was on a team handling laptop procurement and replacement for a few years, company of about 50k devices iirc. I was front line to these kinds of replacements.
      Over the 4 years I was there, there were a handful of stolen or lost laptops each month, a handful of standard accidents each year, and three really impressive stand out destruction accidents that I still keep the pictures for ( For example – one of the laptops was left on top of a car and fell off on the highway…and yes they recovered the carcass to bring in for disposal!) But the cost of those handful of replacements was nowhere near what it would have been to equip everyone with two machines!!

    7. FunkyMunky*

      I work fully remote and remote desktop into my work PC. which they are planning to get rid of too – and replace with laptops. Problem is the laptops aren’t gonna be as nice as the one I currently use plus the idea of lagging a computer when we occasionally pop in into the office *is* annoying. I get that it’s a first world problem but I think leaving PCs as is if they are still operational is fine

      1. Peachtree*

        “Lagging a computer when we occasionally pop in” – really? “I rarely have to carry my laptop to the office – poor me!” is the vibe I’m getting …

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Eh… I’ve found it really is a better experience to have an ultralight notebook (e.g. Chromebook or Surface) and remote into a tower or desktop or virtual workstation than it is to work off a traditional, “desktop replacement” notebook that’s heavy, bulky, and burns through its battery life.

          Ultimately, though, that’s the judgement call of the organization, not the employees–unless it’s BYOD a stipend situation.

          1. amoeba*

            Most “desktop replacement” versions are light nowadays as well! Mine’s really high performing and weighs about as much as a Chromebook, I’d say. Not cheap, but the company can certainly afford it (and also cheaper than having two computers!)

            1. NotAnotherManager!*

              The desktop replacement laptop I had 15 years ago could have been used for weight training. The one I have no is ultralight and is just as good as my office desktop. I’m not running a ton of processor-intense work on it, but I don’t think the average office worker is either.

        2. Hopefully Hiring*

          This is kind of a rude response, and for no reason! They said it’s a first world problem but it is annoying. There’s no “poor me” vibe; they’re agreeing with the LW.

    8. Leenie*

      At my office, we’ve had a couple of laptops stolen from people’s cars over the years. But I’m among the many commenters who are shocked that this is considered a problem. I walk to work most days and carry my laptop in a backpack. It’s been at least 15 years since I’ve had a desktop at work. And I’ve carried my laptops back and forth all this time. Never occurred to me to be upset about it.

    9. TheBunny*

      This.

      Maybe I’m in a mood (always possible LOL) but between “OMG we have to carry laptops” OP and “I can’t believe they expect me to work if I don’t do team building exercises” OP, I was starting to think I was reading a “people make issues out of things that just…aren’t” AAM spevial edition.

      1. London Calling*

        If there’s a choice between ‘I have to do team building exercises or work as normal’ work as normal is going to win every time.

        1. Opaline*

          I’ve never been more grateful for my work’s approach to ‘team building’ than I am reading some of these letters. We get a handful of days where we’re let loose to volunteer on community projects. The company gets to look community conscious and like it’s encouraging team spirit. We get to spend a day planting trees in a park and going out for lunch. Everyone’s happy.

          1. Jay (no, the other one)*

            My last job before I retired had two volunteer days a year and there were sponsored events that I couldn’t attend – I was remote, the office was over an hour away, and those events were always on the other side of the office. I worked my usual schedule those days and wasn’t upset about it. After the first year, my boss noticed I hadn’t taken my volunteer days and asked why. When I explained, he said “don’t you volunteer for your synagogue?” I do – I’m the lay cantor for High Holidays. He said “Well, that counts!” and for the next three years I was able to use the volunteer days for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. I was very pleasantly surprised.

            1. Don’t know what to call myself*

              I love that they let you apply your volunteer days to your own community!

            2. EmF*

              My work lets me take a volunteer day if I’m say, giving blood. I have my gripes about my employer, but that’s something I really like about them – if you are doing a thing that can be at all considered beneficial to others for no personal recompense, they count it as volunteering. I haven’t quiiiiite had the chutzpah to claim a volunteer day for tech week in my community theatre (our core audience is of a certain age, so I have joked about spinning it as “providing cultural enrichment and artistic opportunities to the elderly community”), but the volunteer policy is nearly that flexible.

              (Admittedly, it’s good PR for them, too. “Our employees are active in their community and did this many thousand of volunteer hours!” looks great on a press release, but at the same time I like the day off!)

              1. Mary*

                At my last job, we were given 16 hours of paid “volunteer” hours that we could apply to anything community oriented, like if I participated in a beach clean up, I could take the day off and use 8 hours of community time. I had some problems with that job, but I did love that part of it.

      2. Nebula*

        Yeah. The only thing I’d say on the laptops one is that the LW could ask for lockers for staff, so if they know they’re definitely coming in the next day, they can leave the laptop there, that’s what we have at my work (and previous workplaces) but tbh they don’t really get used because it’s easier to take it home.

        ‘They’re getting paid to goof off!’ – yes and so could you if you joined in. But as you don’t want to do that, they’re going to pay you to work, as is the normal arrangement.

        1. Haggis*

          I was going to say this. Having lockers doesn’t give perfect flexibility but it does mean that eg if you are going shopping or out to the pub on the way home, you can leave your laptop at work and come in the next day.

        2. PhyllisB*

          But she’s having to cover someone else’s work instead of doing her own. I wouldn’t like that, either.

          1. doreen*

            I think that’s the sort of thing that depends on details – if they have to cover someone else’s work instead of their own it sounds like this is just the arrangement they have on any day that person is out , whether they are on vacation or out sick or at an employee engagement event. Which isn’t that uncommon when there is one job that has to have coverage at all times and others that don’t.

        3. Leenie*

          It doesn’t sound like they’re required to take them home at all, so lockers wouldn’t impact the issue. LW is upset that they might not take them home because they don’t want to take them every day, and then decide they need to WFH at the last minute (or be forced to due to illness or other circumstances).

          I don’t actually view this as a problem at all. But change is hard and it is adding another thing for her team to think about in a moment where, in the US at least, I’ve found that a lot of people are being pretty reactive to small stuff because the big stuff is so overwhelming.

      3. 48 hours*

        It’s an interesting companion to yesterday’s letter about if one’s Gen Z reports are being too babied.

      4. Whyblue*

        +1
        I’ve taken my laptop to work walking / cycling for years and while it’s not super convenient, that is the price I pay for WFH flexibility. The occasional one broken laptop out of thousands easily beats having to buy two computers for every employee.

        Team building is not a vacation day – it’s pretty cool they have a choice to skip the event and work instead of they prefer. The only valid argument here is that one cannot reasonably “fill in” for an entire team…

    10. Jill Swinburne*

      Same! It really isn’t that onerous (either have them buy you a backpack or get a basket for your bike). And there’s the bonus that if – surprise! – your kid wakes up sick or you feel a bit under the weather but well enough to work you don’t have to waste a sick day.

      It also makes a ton of business sense for continuity purposes if some event happens and the office is inaccessible.

      1. KateM*

        They didn’t have to waste a sick day before, either, because they had their laptops at home all the times. That’s why they are complaining.

        1. NBD*

          And they don’t need to waste a sick day now because they can just… bring their laptop home every day.

          1. Colette*

            Yeah, but that’s more work for them – it’s less convenient to have to carry a laptop back and forth.

            I mean, it’s rare to have two machines, but this is definitely a downgrade for them.

            When I was in that situation, I brought my laptop home on Fridays, on the theory that it was more likely that something unexpected would happen over the weekend.

            1. MK*

              Sure, but a propportional reaction to that is “bummer, I now have to lug the laptop around”, not be livid that you lost an incidental perk.

            2. ElizabethJane*

              To be honest consolidating to one machine sounds like an upgrade. I would hate swapping between two.

    11. Thegreatprevaricator*

      Also surprised by the docking station outrage. This is the norm in our organisation (uk public sector). I am sure that laptops have got broken or lost but I’m also sure this is accounted for. I don’t know of any lost laptops. Charge cables though.. always someone leaving a charge cable in the office. I personally have lost my work mobile twice. I found it both times. Never lost a laptop though and I either bike, run (we have small enough to go in a backpack ) or take public transport.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Every company I’ve ever worked at expects some amount of loss/damage to tech, so it’s not something I’d worry about. There are usually warranty plans, insurance, and/or replacement budgets. Even when employees are negligent (like accidentally leaving the laptop on the bus), the company just eats the cost.

        Cost of doing business. And still cheaper than buying everyone two computers.

    12. lanfy*

      This has been absolutely standard for at least ten years. I read that letter with my jaw dropping.

      OP, your organisation has been living in the nineties. Welcome to the modern world. Ask your company to provide everyone with half-decent backpacks or shoulder bags, and get on with your lives. Cycling or walking with a backpack is… really not the horror you and your staff seem to think.

      In fact, the level of pushback you’re all exhibiting on this is making me wonder whether there are any other old, inefficient systems you’re still using because of general ossification and ignorance of the wider environment. That might be an interesting management goal for you; learning more about modern processes, and helping yourself and your team overcome your horror of change.

      1. NBD*

        Seriously living in the past. Reminds me of this confounding situation: A friend and I both work for large/similar corporations. In 2020-___, when suddenly we all had to WFH, at my company we all had laptops that we took home most if not all nights so the transition was no big deal. When they WFH, they worked on a personal laptop so for two years W’ed FH on a personal laptop for a huge organization. I was baffled.

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I WFH’ed for at least 2 years on my personal laptop (hurriedly purchased about a week into lockdown) working for my state government. Finally got laptops at some point, and I carry it back and forth for my 3 in-office days. I don’t mind — I get to hope for snow days!

      2. Haggis*

        We switched over to this system at the start of Covid Lockdown (having already moved to laptop+docking station in the office) so it is a fairly recent transition but, yeah not as much of a drama as the OP’s staff are suggesting.

      4. Jackalope*

        This is not a particularly kind comment. I too have had plenty of experience with carrying a work laptop back and forth, and I agree that once you get used to it it’s not that big of a deal. But at the same time, this is a change that as someone pointed out above is a downgrade for the OP and coworkers. It’s never pleasant to lose a specific perk that you’ve counted on, and it’s not surprising that people don’t like that even if it’s reasonable on the part of the employer. It doesn’t mean that everyone is old and stick in their ways just because they don’t like losing a well-liked perk.

        1. lanfy*

          They’re not old and stuck in their ways because they don’t like losing a perk; but that none of them seem to be aware that the unthinkable new way of doing things is actually standard industry practice is an odd blind spot.

      5. LizbotEAV*

        1000%, this made me lol. This is a basic tradeoff for work flexibility! I remember in 2018 when a big storm was anticipated, a coworker in my newish job told me “You probably want to take your laptop home this weekend just in case.” At the time it sort of blew my mind but I forgot even why until I saw this question.

    13. Emmy Noether*

      Adding my voice to the chorus that this has been the norm everywhere I’ve worked for the last ~15 years. I did forget my laptop at home once and had to go back, which was annoying, but it was just once. We also did a few handoffs in the parking lot or even runs to someone’s house during Covid quarantine times. Some people take theirs home every day, I’ve always done it as-needed, because I never done a lot of unplanned home office.

      Laptops have also gotten significantly lighter in those 15 years. Like, a fraction of the weight and size.

      The old tower laptops may still be functional in the sense that they still turn on, but they may no longer meet security requirements (if they cannot be updated to the latest operating system, for example), in which case IT will probably force retiring them.

      1. Nightengale*

        My laptop still weights 4lbs, which added to my totebag and purse is over 10lbs. This is not negligible for me. I feel like I am back in that post from that terrible DEI training a few days ago realizing that “just carry it home” is really no big deal to most people.

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          I have a heavier-than-standard laptop because of what I need it to do, so I can sympathize with weight being an issue. But there are myriad ways of making it doable up to and including accommodations for those who have physical limitations that make carrying a laptop difficult or impossible (distinct from “I’m not used to this” difficult).

        2. Hunchback*

          I agree. I have been taking my laptop home for years and am with the folks here that I find this reaction surprising considering it’s a pretty common situation BUT I’ve been having some pretty bad back problems for the last year and the laptop weight in my backpack has been really tough to handle some days. I commute along a busy route where I am not guaranteed a seat and some days, standing holding my bag (I take off my gear like a good passenger) it has been a lot to take.

          So yeah this is SOP, but thank you Nightengale for reminding readers that there are some consequences to the policy beyond inconvenience.

        3. sb51*

          I’ve been carting mine back and forth too, but even with no difficulty carrying it, sometimes it’s a hassle. Like, I met some friends at a brewery after work, and I had to either ask someone to watch my bag while I went to the bar to order a beer, or carry a fairly large (and awkward to carry when not attached to the bike) bag around a crowded space. Or when I’ve stopped for groceries/at the drugstore, and had to carry in both the full bag (with laptop and other commuting essentials) and the empty bag (to put the purchases in). If the bag only had some spare clothes and flat-fixing/bike tools, I’d leave it on the bike; it’s not a high-crime area.

          1. In the provinces*

            Laptops have become quite light. Power bricks, not so much–speaking as a Mac user for decades.

        4. 48 hours*

          So it could be a conversation with HR about accommodations (a rolling backpack, for example), or maybe you just need to figure out how to carry less stuff to begin with. My work laptop is also big and clunky so in that “now my bag weighs 10 pounds” club too. But it’s on me to make that work.

    14. Wolf*

      +1 for a walking commute with a backpack. Having my laptop in my backpack has never been an issue, even when I buy groceries on my way home.

      1. KateM*

        My normal “handbag” has been a backpack for more than 20 years now. It has been a very little thing to make sure it also fits a laptop.

        1. GrooveBat*

          I have a pretty tote bag that doubles as a purse and it works fine.

          I would recommend that OP get an additional charger to keep at home and leave the other plugged at work, as that would remove extra weight from the bag.

      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Really? I was always worried that something would leak or break or push in the wrong spot and damage the laptop, and I loose enough backpack capacity that I have to carry more stuff in additional bags.

        1. Sandwiches*

          You need multiple additional bagS because you lose the space that a laptop takes up in your backpack? That seems like an outlier situation in bag capacity, extreme laptop thickness, or both.

        2. Curiouser and Curiouser*

          I agree with Sandwiches. This seems…off. Laptops are designed to be pretty durable and these days even the thickest ones are pretty thin. Not that you asked for my advice, lol, but it does seem like there must be a solution to that one that doesn’t involve multiple bags…

        3. AngryOctopus*

          My backpack is pretty compact, and it fits my laptop, my coffee (in a click to close travel mug) and my lunchbag, as well as my wallet(s), umbrella, and a bag in case I need to grocery shop. I could also fit a sweater into the bag when there are days that I layer, but the jacket is too hot with said layer. Do some bag comparison shopping, there are excellent options out there!!

    15. Alanis*

      I’m also in a European company and I do know of one person who came off their bike and damaged their laptop so badly it had to be replaced. It was replaced by the company, no issues, no blame. Just a cost of doing business. The same as it would if your laptop was stolen out of the locked boot of your car. If you left it in public transit they night be a bit less understanding.

    16. Account*

      Yes— this seems like it will eventually end up with the letters about “strange hills for people to die on.” The world is full of people who carry a briefcase or backpack with a laptop in it. It’s really not the end of the world.

    17. IT Squirrel*

      Another surprised European here who doesn’t think twice about carrying my laptop to work and back every day on a bicycle! As do all my colleagues, who travel by a mix of car, bike and walking.

      One thing you could do which will make a difference is to make sure they have duplicates of all the small peripherals, including chargers and headsets, if possible. Often docking stations will provide power and have a mouse and keyboard attached already, but even so it does make a difference only having to carry the laptop back and forth but having everything else already in each place, vs. packing up and carrying a laptop, charger, mouse, headset etc every day.

      1. AngryOctopus*

        Yes, work setup has the capability to have a keyboard and mouse (my personal preference is to use the laptop keyboard, and I have my own mouse due to the style I like), and it charges on this brick. The charger that comes with the laptop I have at home for WFH.

    18. londonedit*

      Yep, we all got laptops in 2018. And then everyone was very glad of that in 2020, because we could all just take our laptops home! Everyone has their own work laptop and then there are docking stations and screens at each desk in the office. We do have lockable filing cabinets in the office so if you’re working there two or more days in a row you can lock your laptop in the filing cabinet overnight, but otherwise you take it back and forth with you. IT do have a stash of spare laptops, and if you forget yours then you can go and borrow one for the day, but honestly people are so used to it now that it’s rare for anyone to forget! Personally I don’t even leave my laptop in the office if I’m there two days in a row – I always think what if I end up not going to the office the next day for some reason (like feeling ill or having a household emergency or whatever). So I always take mine with me. I haven’t forgotten or broken it yet!

      1. Another Kristin*

        I have also been burned this way, left my laptop in the office assuming I’d be in the next day, then had a sick kid or emergency home repair that stuck me at home, working from the old Chromebook my kids used during COVID virtual school. Now I take it back and forth regardless of my plans for the next day!

    19. ursula*

      Likewise! I do understand the logistical issues that staff are pointing out, but I guess we consider them the trade-off for hybrid/WFH flexibility. I would have assumed this was standard.

    20. B*

      Agreed. This has been my situation for years. I’ve known people who have had their laptops damaged or stolen and the company replaces it.

    21. curious mary*

      At my current job, we’ve never had desktops and we have work PCs with docking stations instead. I leave my laptop at the office most nights, unless I’m planning to work from home the next day or think it likely that factors outside of my control (illness or weather) will happen so I need to work from home the next day. It’s also not that bad to carry my laptop in my backpack, including when biking to/from work, though I of course prefer to bike without it.

    22. Nightengale*

      I completely get it.

      I broke a laptop in college by transporting it by bicycle. . . at least I was told the daily jostling was probably a factor. Maybe laptops are sturdier these days?

      Now fortunately I have been able to get my workplace to issue me a separate work and home laptop as an informal disability accommodation. (I can’t use a desktop.) Carrying an extra 3 lbs to and from the bus is a lot for me, especially in poor weather. I did it recently for a month when one of my laptops had a broken key. The additional weight affects my balance making me more likely to fall and is a lot of extra stress for my neck and back. I couldn’t stop off after work to pick up a few groceries as I can do otherwise. I walk home occasionally – there is no way I could do that with the laptop.

      1. KateM*

        Where did you keep the laptop, on baggage rack / in basket, without any amortisation? Because I don’t think my laptop in padded backpack gets so much more jostling on bike that it would be during walking.

        1. Elitist Semicolon*

          I’ve jostled a few laptop hard drives to bits even in a padded/secure bike bag. But that was before solid-state drives were the norm, and my unit finally made me switch to a laptop with an SSD even though it would be more expensive. In the long run, it was cheaper in both actual cost and IT labor for them to shell out a little more than to keep repairing drives or replacing the entire laptop.

        2. Nightengale*

          So this is 30 years ago. . . I had it in a padded laptop carry case which I then either put in a pannier or bungied to the back rack. My ride was definitely a lot more jostly than walking was, including lifting the bike up 3 steps to a footbridge.

    23. Ana Gram*

      I’m in local government in the US and same for us. It’s really not a big deal and I’m surprised the employees in the letter are so worked up about it. I don’t take my laptop home every day (or even most days) but if bad weather’s coming or I’m not feeling great, I’ll grab it on the way out. I carry a tote bag to work so I just shove it in there.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I suspect these employees are in a larger city and don’t have cars to store it in when they run after-work errands. While it’s a luxury to have 2 computers for work, anytime people lose something, it’s normal for them to be upset.

        1. HB*

          OMG this. It doesn’t matter if it’s the industry standard, it’s not *their* standard. They could be well aware this was a huge perk/luxury they were enjoying and being extremely unhappy about it doesn’t make them spoiled, it makes them human. Geez.

          Also anytime someone has an outsized reaction (which I think is a debatable point in this case), I usually assume that the thing that caused the reaction is not the actual problem… it’s just the breaking point. One summer I was apparently under a lot of stress and not handling it well and simply *did not realize it* until I was moving a recycling bin which tipped and rolled over my ankle. I was not really injured. The bin did not spill out to make a huge mess. But I literally dropped down to the pavement and sobbed uncontrollably for a good 45 seconds.

          Sometimes your brain sees the opportunity for a tantrum and takes it because you need it. The question is whether your tantrum is appropriately calibrated for the environment/situation (i.e. if it’s at work someone shouldn’t be able to describe it objectively as a tantrum), and whether once you get your feelings out, you’re able to adjust and move on.

        2. SB*

          That’s what I was assuming too. I understand that they’re upset, but I also think they’ll adapt to it pretty quickly. And I say this as someone who is 1) very clumsy, 2) slightly disorganized, and 3) has a tendency to break my stuff. It’s not a big deal to carry a laptop once you’re used to it.

          (By the way, I am in a mid-size city where I have a car. But we’re not allowed to leave our laptops unattended in our vehicles.)

          I am a little baffled that they are still using the desktops though, like just with general functionality. Like, how do handle meetings when they’re office? Would those rooms have a permanent desktop that connects to the tech?

            1. Elf*

              Snark missed the mark here – SB is talking about meetings when they are all going into the same room – meetings can still need tech eg if there is a slide deck or a shared document of work being discussed or all sorts of other reasons.

              1. SB*

                Yep. Thanks. That’s exactly what I meant. I can’t remember the last time I’ve been in meeting and someone didn’t have to share their screen on a mounted wall monitor.

                My work is pretty collaborative though and since everyone’s background and skill set and degrees are different….pictures, and graphs, and videos help to get everyone on the same page.

      2. sdog*

        Same – even during my prior work at the federal government, just the laptop was the norm, and desktops were slowly phased out. I carted my laptop through public transportation, locked it up when I went to the gym on my way home, carried it with me to happy hours after work, etc. If I could arrange to keep my laptop at work (planning to come in the next day), I would try, but if the weather was looking suspect or I wasn’t feeling great, I erred on the side of just taking it home.

    24. Llama Llama*

      It seems insane to even think that a company giving all employees 2 computers, let alone be upset when they don’t. Laptops are intended to be transported and there are many ways to keep them safe during a commute.

      If a computer breaks because of any reason a company should replace it. Heck, my manager spilled coffee on hers and got a new one. Mine broke. I got a new one and it broke again 6 months later. I got a new one.

      1. Ansteve*

        Yeah we never really care if a laptop gets broken unless it was obvious you did it intentionally. The only time I have seen action happen against an employee was after they had 3 laptops broke in a similar way. I think they kept breaking the screen for some reason.

    25. Jules the 3rd*

      Carrying a laptop daily *is* the industry standard, and has been for at least 20 years, if you were lucky enough to be able to work remotely back then. Two computers is an unusual luxury. There’s a reason that almost all backpacks have a ‘laptop sleeve’ now.

      That said OP, there are things you can do to help your employees:
      1. Training on laptop security and what to do if the laptop is lost or stolen – who to contact, etc.
      2. Can the company allow them to purchase backpacks on the company dime?
      3. Treat it as normal and they will too.

      I still use a backpack I got as a bonus from 20 years ago. This monster is beautifully made, I just ink over the company logo every year or so.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        I think this is a great list. If it’s allowed by the organization, I would also add:

        4. Teach people how to set up a remote desktop so they can use their work laptops from a personal laptop/desktop. This only works for people who have their own personal computer at home (I know not everyone does), but it could be a way for at least some employees to work from home without carrying the work laptops back and forth.

        1. sb51*

          Yeah, clearly the people asking for this already had a way to log into their desktops from home — so they had home computers with remote desktopping capability. Not sure what changed there, but clearly something has; perhaps there’s an opportunity to make the laptops accessible by remote desktop too? (Possibly not, if part of the desire was to upgrade security by not having personal machines VPNing in, but it’s worth asking.)

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            They had work laptops at home, I think, not working from home desktops. The W@H laptops / W@Office desktops probably had similar setups and accessed work drives. With my current employer, no one saves anything on local drives, it’s all on shared ones.

            I’d amend 4 to ‘check in w employees to see if there are concerns beyond security or convenience (eg, disability) and if needed work with them on reasonable accommodations (eg, keep 2 computers or access work computer from home via remote desktop).

        3. Nightengale*

          4) have a VPN that actually does what people need. I would actually be very happy to work from home from my personal laptop if the VPN basically made it work like a work computer. But the VPN makes the usable screen too small and I can’t copy/paste from e-mail or word to and from the EHR.

        4. Ansteve*

          As someone in IT the most likely reason they are going to a laptop only model of remoting in has to do with costs. When we had VMware as our service to connect to work it would cost us $50/month per person. It also was complicated by the fact not all PCs could install the software to us it. We couldn’t support chrome books or older windows and Macs. There also were people who would blame IT for anything wrong on their personal PCs.

        5. lunchtime caller*

          This is what I do most of the time, only bringing my work laptop home on long weekends and extended WFH periods. Especially with shared drive technology, it’s easier than ever. I’m more shocked by the workplaces that are making people take their laptops home in case the entire office gets robbed! Doesn’t sound like my problem that the building’s security is so bad.

    26. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think it’s becoming the norm but not 100% yet. But OP – my team had a similar reaction to this transition, and I’d say after 3 weeks literally no one cared anymore.

      People build this in their heads to be more than it is, and change annoys people, but this is a lot more low stakes than they think it is. I say that as someone who was in your exact position, lost, and realized I was wrong.

    27. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I think I’m going on roughly 17-18 years of laptop use here. At least ten of those, commuting with my laptop has been the expectation (One office years back had a formal policy that it was either locked up or taken with you when you left the building).

      I’m reading that some of the LW’s reports have a physical desktop computer at the office and then a laptop at home? That seems very inefficient in 2025…

    28. Dust Bunny*

      We haven’t, either. Everyone has a Surface and then a keyboard and monitor at their desk, and at other desks in various work areas around the building. Yes, we all carry them back and forth on days we’re WFH. If anything, people were thrilled to not have computer towers to trip over any more.

      Am I missing something? This seems like an odd thing about which to be so incensed.

    29. Yellow*

      I’m shocked that people are upset about carrying a laptop back and forth. It’s not 1997. They’re basically the size of a notebook. This seems like such a non-issue.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        I know that my workplace has incredibly outmoded tech and that describes the laptops in particular, but this discussion is really driving it home tbh.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          There’s still a huge range of weights and sizes in laptops, often depending on use cases. A laptop that travels internationally is going to need to be sturdier than the notebook sized laptops. A laptop that is used without external monitors needs to be bigger than one that’s basically just a mobile CPU / network card.

          My home laptop that travels regularly, holds all my cat pics and videos and is used without external monitors is a 5lb, 16″, sturdy behemoth. My work laptop that is always used plugged into a dock / monitors is half the weight.

    30. Ally McBeal*

      Same here. I’ve been at my company since 2021 and it’s the first company I’ve worked at that issues almost everyone (except for, e.g., the design and video teams) laptops and docking stations instead of PCs. Frankly I’m shocked at how much I love it. We’re hybrid, so I usually arrange my in-office days consecutively so I’m not lugging my laptop back and forth every day, but even during crazy weeks it’s not a big deal. (It’s a laptop, it weighs <5 pounds.) It also makes traveling for work SO much easier – no loaner laptops with funky default settings, no squinting at docs on my phone, no VPN dongles, etc.

    31. Velomont*

      Same here. I was doing the same thing either by bike, in panniers, along with a change of clothing and my lunch and it was never a problem. On some days I walked in with intervals of jogging, with my laptop. I did this for ten years,

      Commuting with our laptops was just something we all did.

    32. Allornone*

      I think this might be the norm going forward. At my new job, we’re in a shared space (with a music school! long story) that requires hot desking, but thankfully, we’re moving to a new private space next month. Because of the conditions, we’ve all been working off laptops, which won’t change when we get to the new space. They will provide us with additional monitors that we plug in to have two screens, but no desk computers. And it made complete sense- we’re a non-profit, more money spent on computers for everyone is less that goes into the program (which is absolutely true in my org).

      I’m used to lugging my laptop back and forth every day on mass transit, which sucks, but it is what it is. At the new office, we won’t be hotdesking (bless the lord) and I can leave my laptop there when I choose (yay!). I’m soooo looking forward to that. In this scenario, you don’t have to take your laptop everyday, just when you know you won’t be in the office and might need it. Not a huge deal really. To me, at least. But maybe my current working conditions have biased me.

    33. LaminarFlow*

      Same! Laptop with docking at home & every office I work out of. At home & at my dedicated desk, I have a few monitors bc I need multiple screens.

      Backpacks are great for walking/cycling/truly any sort of commute with a laptop. I haven’t never lost mine, and I can’t recall anyone ever losing one.

    34. Annony*

      I think it is the norm. This company had an unusual perk of providing two computers per person and I can see why they liked it. Getting told a perk is going away always rankles but I think that once they start doing it they will adjust relatively easily.

    35. Charlotte Lucas*

      Yep. At my current role, I have only ever had one laptop that gets docked in the office. It lived there 24/7 until March 2020. Now it just travels back and forth with me.

      There are plenty of commuter backpacks with laptop pockets, and I walk with mine all the time.

    36. geek5508*

      at my job, we are in the process of moving everybody over to Virtual Machines, to be accessed via a Thin Client ( users get two – one for home, one for office). Users with a need for them get Mobile Thin Clients, which are just like laptops

    37. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      when we switched from pc to laptop, we had group training for logging on, navigating , making sure everything was migrated from the old pc. And we were told we had to take them home every night whether you were in office or not.
      It seemed crazy, overzealous. And a pain the butt. But that’s what they said. So we learned to it. Remind them that the flexibility of choosing not to come in is worth it.

    38. umami*

      Right? I get that it can be a challenge to cart it back and forth, but is the slight bit of trouble not worth it to be able to have flexibility in working from home? I’ve carried my laptop home every day for … IDK, 7 years now? This really doesn’t feel like something to be up in arms over when it really is more of a benefit to employees than a hindrance.

    39. AthenaC*

      My reaction as well – it’s very normal in my industry for everyone to carry their laptops everywhere with them: home, office, out to a client … in fact it feels weird to go somewhere and NOT have a laptop with.

      I’m struggling to understand the resistance on this one.

    40. Ahoytheship*

      I have been at my company for nearly 14 years, and I have 100% of the time had a laptop/docking station setup at the office where I am expected to bring the machine home with me every day (even if I was always working out of the office). I had to reread this a few times because I thought there was some undue hardship/funky norm I was missing.

    41. Miette*

      I too am confused by the terminology used. Docking stations are equipment into which a laptop is “docked” so that there is easy access to the network/peripherals/power etc. They’re meant to make a laptop PC useful both in the office or on the road. Does OP mean a desktop PC?

    42. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      Reading through this thread, I get that my job is apparently not the norm… but my employer (a tech company!) is probably 95% desktops. I WFH on my personal desktop, and for anything I’m not doing on the cloud I RDP into a desktop that’s sitting in the office. I do have a laptop now, but that’s for when I need to work from somewhere other than home or office. Some other folks who work from home were given a desktop and router to bring home, and then have a laptop for the rare occasions they need to be in office.

      1. WhaleINever*

        Yeah, I’m very surprised by the agreement in this thread! My workplace is almost entirely desktops, except for a handful of positions where people need to bring laptops into a different space in the building—and even then, there are communal laptops that are designated as “for use in the workroom,” but the employees primarily use individual desktop computers for all other work. If people choose to work from home, they use personal laptops, and can remote into the shared server so they’re not having to save things to their personal drives for example.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Desktops are still better for some uses such as graphics rendering or program compilation, though many companies are putting those on central servers.

        By 2010 at my old employer IBM, back office / sales / most consultants all had laptops, while programmers who compile usually had 2 computers – a desktop for compiling and a laptop for writing code. Technical consultants were usually doing database / systems configuration, not compilable programs, but the few who did program had the dual desk / laptop setup.

        Each programmer having their own desktop meant less competition for compiling cycles. I think program compiling is now mostly done on shared servers, because they’ve been able to get load balancing better, but writing code is still mostly done on laptops.

    43. laptop personage*

      Same! I’ve had several jobs over the past decade+, and I’ve just had a laptop at all of them. Carrying it around daily when I was on a hybrid schedule was hardly onerous, and my commute was on foot!

    44. anonymous state employee*

      We were hybrid, but the governor ordered all state employees to RTO full-time with no further remote work allowed except for the occasional emergency situation.

      We STILL have to bring our laptops home with us every day, because state agencies sold off/gave up leases on much of our office space back when the same governor approved hybridizing the non-customer-facing, office-based work force, prior to COVID. So there’s no place at the office to secure the dang things.

    45. Nina*

      Yeah it took me some time to understand the letter because this is perfectly common and not an issue to anyone else. These seem like the nitpicky issues people come up with because they don’t like change

    46. Anya Last Nerve*

      I came here to comment this! I haven’t had a separate PC at work and a laptop for home since 2005.

      Also I assume that the PCs are leased and that’s what they mean by “end of life” – they aren’t going to renew the lease and get new PCs. At the last 3 places I’ve worked, our laptops were leased and refreshed every 3 years.

    47. Not In Charge*

      Yeah, this is the way that everyone I work with operates. We all take our computers home every day, even if they just go in the backpack and then get taken out at work the next day.

      I certainly have a lot of sympathy for the fact that their routine and habits are being changed. But this really is a pretty normal way to do things. If they walk/bike, perhaps the manager can push for nice high quality backpacks that will keep the computer safe.

    48. Awesome Sauce*

      I haven’t had a work desktop since I was The World’s Worst Admin Assistant (couldn’t find a job right out of college, had bills to pay). I have spent literally my entire professional career of 18+ years lugging my work laptop back and forth to the office. Yes it can be annoying. No it is not the total lifestyle disruption that LW3’s team is making it out to be.

      I wonder if this is just the “load-bearing [non] issue” that LW3’s team is re-directing all their stress at for whatever reason. There is an awful lot of doom and gloom out there lately, and this relatively minor change might just be the final straw for a lot of folks.

    49. ThatGirl*

      Yeah, I have exclusively used laptops (with docking stations) for like 18 years. And I take it home almost every night. (I do sometimes leave mine at the office at my current job, because my office is very close to my house, but there have been a few occasions where I’ve needed to come get it before I could work from home.)

    50. librarian*

      Yeah. When I read the first example of employees with chronic illnesses (since I also have a chronic illness that requires me to work remote unexpectedly sometimes), I immediately thought “why don’t they just take their laptops home every day?” That seems totally reasonable to me. I feel like most people have a work bag that’s large enough to hold a laptop, no? I don’t bring mine home every day (mostly to discourage myself from working when I don’t need to be) but I could easily pop it in my every day bag if I need to.

    51. learnedthehardway*

      My entire mobile office lives in a computer backpack – I even have a printer. It’s not abnormal to have only a laptop. I LIKE my desktop, but I don’t need it.

      I get that this is a big change for some people, but they’re already using laptops, and presumably have bags for them. It becomes second nature to carry one with you.

      I find that a computer backpack is a better option for me, than a messenger bag.

    52. WillowSunstar*

      Yes, I haven’t used a PC at work in over 10 years. I’ve never heard of anyone’s laptop getting stolen while commuting either. However, when one of my laptops got life cycled and I had to use UPS (paid by company) to send it back, the laptop was stolen somewhere along the way. Good thing I kept the email from UPS, or I would’ve been blamed for that. So if you do have to physically ship the laptops from time to time, make sure your employees keep all receipts and communication from whichever service you use.

    53. JS*

      We’ve done it since COVID with no problems. I got a bookbag with a laptop portion within that has a strap

    54. Spreadsheet Queen*

      Yep, laptops for many years. I don’t think I’ve used a PC since probably 2013. I don’t bike (would get me killed in this city), but I have a rolling laptop case I use. It easily accommodates my laptop, my docking station and cords, and any files I might need. For someone who cycles or walks, a backpack with the padded laptop slot is probably just fine. If the docking station is heavy, it might be work asking for a separate docking station for home vs. office.
      As far as weather, we all just keep an eye on the forecasts and if there is a chance of snow (which shuts down my city, even if it’s just a dusting), or chance of tornadoes, etc., we just bring them home the night before. You can’t always predict getting sick, but sometimes you feel a little throat cleary in an afternoon, and you just bring it home in case you are coming down with a cold (particularly if you know someone else who had a cold recently). So sometimes you can get ahead of it, or sometimes you’ve brought home your laptop when the problem was the Susan had a giant vase of roses or the pollen counts were just high that day.
      And as far as going out after work…there are places I’m comfortable going (doctors appointments, a quick stop at the grocery store, a drink at place in a low crime area) – depending on weather too because you don’t want to fry the laptop. That’s more complicated if you’re walking/biking/taking public transport, because then it’s got to be on your person the whole time vs. under a coat in the trunk – so you might be able to have dinner, but you’re not going to be able to go bar hopping. But maybe don’t schedule much after work on days you KNOW you need to take the laptop home. (Also – do you have access to the facility after hours? So, if you go out someplace close to the office after work, can you then swing by for your laptop before commuting home? My previous job was in an area with lot of shops and restaurants and I did this all the time.)

    55. dulcinea47*

      The laptops are under warranty, so if you do, say, have a coffee thermos that leaks all over your three month old laptop while it’s in your bag…. it just gets fixed and no one is even mad.

    56. Admin of Sys*

      Yeah, we have laptops / docks only – but supplement that by not requiring the older laptop to be returned. So as long as the older one isn’t dead, it becomes the stay-at-home / travel-with laptop and the new one stays in the office in the dock. Mind you, that implies folks get machines upgraded on a timeline rather than by necessity.

    57. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      We use laptops. We tend to take them home daily. My issue is the reverse — I need a docking station at work!!!!

      I’ve bought myself a docking station for home (had a need for it regardless), but I’ve been begging for one at the office for ages. Granted, it’s only four cables I need to pull (5 counting the wireless dongle for the mouse/keyboard), but it would be so much simpler with a station. Plus, I have only two USB3 ports (and the USB-C ports are taken up by power and a monitor).

      1. I Have RBF*

        I bought myself a “docking station” (really just a plugin hub with slots for usb keyboard, usb mouse, hdmi monitor, camera, power, ethernet, etc.) To use the laptop without it, I just unplug one usb c cable. It was less than $100.

    58. What_the_What*

      Same! I work at an AF Base and everyone here, civilians, military, contractors are ALL issued laptops, docking stations, an extra charger, monitors if needed/wanted, and a very nice backpack to carry the laptop in. New laptops are super light. I can’t even imagine going back to a PC again!

    59. Beth*

      Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever worked somewhere where it’s normal to have two computers. My coworkers and I have either had a desktop at a desk and worked in office every day, or had a laptop and brought it home when we wanted to work from home. And that’s included jobs in big cities, where most of us had long commutes via walking/biking/public transit.

      I think your team is probably just reacting to this being a change, rather than it actually being untenable. If your team is really worried about security, have your IT team share some tips for securing their laptops in case of theft. If the laptops are truly heavy or bulky to a level you think is a real barrier, see if you can push for an upgrade–there are tons of low-profile options these days. But from there, trust them to adjust.

    60. cathy*

      I haaaaaate lugging my stupid laptop around (I commute by bike a lot) but I suck it up and do it.

    61. Coverage Associate*

      Echoing many other comments. Have only had a laptop since 2019. My current employer has a policy against leaving laptops in cars, which is annoying when I go out to dinner on my way home from work. I also don’t know how people manage at networking events where bag check is definitely not the norm. I see lots of people without briefcases. Maybe they are in a corner. Maybe, like me sometimes, they will stop at the office before going home after the event.

    62. Ansteve*

      I am also confused by 3. I have chronic issues and having a laptop made it so much easier to work from home. I don’t need to install company software on my personal computer. If something like a power outage happens I can move to a friends place or a library to finish work pretty quickly.

      On the potential to break, onedrive has been amazing for that. When I first started in IT of you had an accident and weren’t saving to the network drive you were screwed. Now if your laptop takes sky dive and shatters into a million pieces I can have a new laptop with all your files accessible in an hour. It has saved so many people at my current company.

      1. Dahlia*

        They already had laptops they were leaving at home. They want to continue leaving them at home.

    63. fhqwhgads*

      We were laptops-only until maybe 4 years ago when people stopped traveling nearly as much, and some folks wanted desktops since they didn’t need the mobility and could beef up the specs more easily/cheaper. But in this case, everyone’s wfh, not potentially going back and forth to an office.

    64. IDontGetIt*

      Agree. I really don’t see why they are complaining. They’ve had a nice perk, but that day is ending. It seems fiscally irresponsible to expect the company to furnish each employee with two computers, and it makes perfect sense to phase out the PCs. If someone doesn’t want to transport a laptop, then don’t work from home. This is a real non-issue to me.

    65. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I walk to work and carry my laptop back and forth each day, they aren’t that heavy anymore. I am fortunate that if I forget, 75% of my job can be done from my personal device if needed and loaners are available at work.

    66. vacationaddict*

      us too. I take my laptop home every night, just in case. I haven’t had a desktop at my job in 10 years.

    67. Adele*

      I’m also surprised to hear of any companies still using PCs! Of course I can see how the transition can be tricky, but as a younger professional I have never had a PC. I’ve always used laptops with a docking station. I will admit since I’ve also always been hybrid I’m very used to packing up my stuff daily!

    68. Parakeet*

      I damaged a laptop in grad school, enough to considerably reduce its lifespan, when I crashed while bike commuting in the winter (I will no longer ride a bike if there is any ice on the ground). That said, this is probably the exception.

      Walking with a laptop or taking public transit with a laptop doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. I’ve done both many a time (I’ve even run with a laptop, though it’s more annoying). I feel bad for the bike commuters – perhaps the company could provide them with biking-appropriate laptop bags, or padded laptop bags for their bike baskets? On the other hand, I think most people are more coordinated than I am and less likely to crash a bike/more able to balance while biking with a backpack. I take the point about the difficulties in going out after work, but that’s also an issue with your backpack, briefcase, or large purse – any time I’ve worked in an office, I’ve carried stuff during my commute that required some kind of bag or pack.

      That said, the letter is less about the policy itself and more about how to discuss a policy you disagree with with your team. I appreciate Alison’s advice that you don’t need to pretend to agree with the policy. I’ve seen managers mess up on that one believing that because they were managers they had no choice but to pretend to agree. It’s not great for morale. Not when your boss is obviously faking because their acting skills aren’t good enough to be convincing (or it goes against what you know of them), and not when your boss sincerely seems to agree with a bad policy and you don’t even feel heard when you express concerns.

  2. Ladida*

    Re #3 – I may end up being in the minority on this, but I don’t think this policy is uncommon or that bad. I’m not sure why a company would purchase twice as much technology as they need because a subset of employees might want to bike home or get happy hour after work. You’re likely to lose this fight on the policy. But good news, you’re even more likely to be… well…fine…

    1. Rara Avis*

      Exactly. How does it make financial sense to give each employee two computers? Granted, I’m in education, but I carry my laptop back and forth every day. If I stop somewhere on the way home I make the decision every time about leaving it in the car or carrying it with me.

      1. Antilles*

        The only cases I’ve ever seen someone being permanently assigned two computers is on a handful of occasions where there was a very clear business reason. For example, at my first company, one employee’s role required a monster desktop because his role involved top-top tier graphics design, but he also was senior enough that he was constantly visiting client sites, so it made sense for him to have his own laptop as well.
        But I can count the number of times I’ve seen something like that on one hand with fingers to spare.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          It used to be common with programmers, but I think ‘desktops for compiling’ have mostly been replaced with ‘cloud servers for compiling’.

          As you say, without the ‘clear business need’ for a bigger hard drive / extra graphics card / extra mem, it’s unusual to have two. Especially as this company seems to do it, for WFH convenience.

          1. H3llifIknow*

            Yes. My son is a software engineer for the govt. He doesn’t need (or want) a PC. Everything is cloud and collaboration based.

    2. Santiago*

      I commute by bus or bike daily, and I don’t really see the issue with carrying the laptop either.

      1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

        I used to bike commute and just put mine in the pannier. I also used to travel to an adjacent city regularly, a combo of walking and taking multiple trains, carrying around a laptop in my backpack.

      2. Always Tired*

        Same. I bike about a mile each side of the bus. I don’t take my laptop home every day, as I usually work in the office, but it generally comes home for the weekend because I have critical tasks on Mondays and if I wake up feeling like death, I can just do those and go back to bed. When I do take my laptop home, I have a tiny backpack that’s just for the computer.

        Also, the cost of dual computers isn’t just the hardware, it’s double the software licenses and double the IT support. There is zero business case for employee convenience having a higher priority than budget and streamlining services.

    3. The Person from the Resume*

      I agree. This is the norm. Many, many people do this. You get the laptop case, backpack, roller luggage that works for you. You leave it in the trunk of your car when you make stops on the way home. You carry with you if you’re not driving.

      I understand it’s a big change, but it does sound like both you and your employees are not adapting to this change, and you’re at huge company where everyone else follows this policy. It’s normal for your coworkers. Just accept it.

      1. allathian*

        Indeed. Accept it, but also accept that neither you nor your reports have to like it.

        You’re also unlikely to lose any employees over this because the number of employers that are providing more than one computer to each employee is so tiny as to be non-existent.

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        It seems like the WFH is really more for the individual employees benefit rather than the companies, in that the company is allowing WFH because employees prefer it, rather than the company deciding they want it to be remote position.

        Not lugging a laptop back and forth (I commute by public Transit) is 100% the reason I chose to use my own personal laptop at home and use a “desktop” at work. I could have asked for a work laptop, but I would have had to bring it back and forth when I went into the office.

        I would say that OP could try to see if work would allow people to use personal laptops/computers at home for people that don’t want to bring the laptop back and forth.

        It is 100% reasonable for the company to say we are offering WFH as a benefit for you, we are providing one work computer/laptop that allows you to do that, but if you don’t want to lug things around you can work in the office everyday or use your own computer.

        1. Funko Pops Day*

          I was similarly wondering if the company had a cloud system that would let employees access critical files remotely from a personal device (e.g. Microsoft one drive files that let you edit office documents online), which would at least be a backup for things like unexpected bad weather.

        2. Seamyst*

          Using personal computers for work is a big no-no in my field, unless it’s utterly unavoidable (like when we got hit with a cyber-attack that fried half our computers, so we used our personal ones for a week or so while IT cleaned out several local Staples of all their laptops and set them up for everyone), because of security concerns, potential lack of anti-virus software or current updates, etc.

          But otherwise, yeah, OP and team’s complaint about this practice is weirdly outdated.

          1. Cmdrshprd*

            I work in a field that also has high security concerns, and we don’t actually use or personal or work computers locally.

            They all are just used to login and stream a virtual computer via a browser. So no company filed actually sit/live on our computer. Even at work our “desktops” or laptops are used to login to the virtual computer stream.
            The local “computer” can’t really do much besides browse the Internet.

        3. H3llifIknow*

          Using a personal laptop for corporate business could get messy very quickly depending on the nature of the work. I, personally, don’t want to mix my own data with the company’s. I won’t even do it with my phone because in the case of an incident, they can remotely wipe it. I’d assume they’d be able to do the same with a personal laptop. Laptops used to be so heavy and unweildy but now they’re so slim and lightweight that I don’t think I’d refer to it as “lugging” it back and forth anymore. It’s so easy to pop into a backpack or (in my case) a large tote bag.

        4. Eukomos*

          We have to use our work computers for data security reasons, so we all carry our laptops back and forth. I was also a bit nervous about it falling out of my bike basket or something at first but it’s been totally fine, OP’s employees will find it’s not that much of a pain once they start doing it.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      Likewise, I’ve been doing it for years on public transit. The only time a real pain is when I have some sort of fancy thing after work, where carrying a backpack with me isn’t appropriate, or if I’m going away for the weekend straight from work. On those cases, I leave it in the office, and if I happen to not be able to make it to the office the next day, I take PTO.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Same. Suits and backpacks is a very normal thing to see on public transit for exactly this reason. It’s occasionally inconvenient, but so is going out after work in businesswear or many other things simply associated with having a job.

    5. Lily*

      You’re not in the minority at all. My last three companies, everyone has been expected to take their laptops home every day. It’s very normal and no one has ever complained.

    6. cozy*

      I live in Oregon, where there are predominantly full-service gas stations, and this laptop situation reminds me so much of the reaction from some lifelong Oregonians when *some* self-serve gas stations were allowed to operate after hours or in rural areas. “How can you expect us to pump our own gas, don’t you know how dangerous that is?” “What if I spill gasoline on my shoes or in my coffee or all over my child?” “My god, what has this state, nay, this country, come to?” While everyone else was LOL’ing because self service gas is the most normal thing in the world.

      1. Jane*

        Lmao – I have spilled gasoline all over my feet & shoes at least twice before, and I’ve only ever lived in self service states. So it’s definitely POSSIBLE. But it’s a user error issue.

    8. duinath*

      yeah, i initially thought they meant that all employees had use their own personal laptops and was fully onboard with being upset but this? this is just standard, to my knowledge.

    9. Annony*

      This policy does not even prevent biking home or going to happy hour. Many of my coworkers bike and they just use a backpack for their laptop. It is also easy to put your backpack/laptop bag under your chair if you go out or decide that you are committed to coming into the office the next day instead of working from home. They will have to develop new habits and maybe buy a bag that works best for them but it is all very doable.

    10. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Yes, with the title being “a policy I don’t agree with” I expected some awful corporate policy. This is quite a normal policy and I think LW and their team is acting quite precious about it.
      Financially, it wouldn’t make any business sense to give every employee a backup laptop.

    11. TGIF*

      I have seen so many people that do a hybrid situation and do video content for social media, and they are ALWAYS taking a laptop back and forth. I figured it was normal. Personally I haven’t had an office pc since 2015. When I was in a call center from 2015 to 2020 they gave us a mini pc that was chained to the desk but if one were to haul it back and forth it was the size of a large wallet. Very light. Now I have a laptop that i use from home every day. I would suggest having decent monitors at both home and the office, and a keyboard. The screens and keyboards on laptop are not great.

    12. WhoKnows*

      We’re not even ALLOWED to leave anything in the office anymore, even though we all sit at the same desks when we’re in the office. I have been carrying my laptop back and forth since Covid, and I use public transportation. Maybe it’s annoying when you want to go somewhere before and after work and your bag is a little heavier than you’d like it to be, but it’s really not that much of a hardship.

    13. Anon Attorney*

      Came here to say this. I worry OP may be coming off as out of touch by suggesting that her reports won’t be able to work from home (the point is to bring your laptop back and forth) or raising safety concerns… I am one of probably hundreds of thousands of people at least in NYC that brings my laptop back and forth to work on the subway and it’s only the minor inconvenience of my bag being a little heavy. If people bike they probably need a backpack or messenger bag, which would also be normal here. If it was the suburbs, even easier!

    14. The Other Dawn*

      I agree. It’s common in my experience and it works out just fine.

      It’s a bit different in my company, though. Only managers and those jobs that truly require a laptop (due to travel to clients, etc.) get a laptop and docking station. They just carry it with them. It’s a policy, actually, that the laptop does NOT stay at the office overnight unless it’s locked up. It’s with the employee at all times, whether that’s the office, home, or at a client. Those who work on a PC and want to WFH have to use their own equipment at home. I don’t think that’s unreasonable, either, and I know why the company does that: the CEO wants most people in the office as much as possible.

  3. tabloidtainted*

    Perhaps we’re in the minority and I just never realized it, but the new policy in #3 has been the standard at my company since the pandemic (and before for the pandemic for employees that traveled to conferences a few times a year). Yes, you commute with your laptop, whether you drive, walk, or take the T. People use backpacks and roller bags and laptop briefcases. It’s never prevented me from socializing after work. It’s a nonissue.

    2. lanfy*

      The company I worked for almost ten years ago actually *required* that we take our laptops home with us every night – and provided decent laptop bags with which to do so.

      That is because, twenty years ago, they were able to put their entire organisation back together after their office was destroyed in a major disaster, using only the data that was stored on the laptops people had taken home with them.

      I genuinely had to double check that OP’s letter wasn’t written back in the nineties, it’s so out of step with modern workplace norms. And while I agree that Allison’s advice is far more practical and useful than my immediate ‘welcome to 2025’, I do think it is also worth making OP aware of quite how old-fashioned their office is, because that’s really important context in terms of both the corporate decision, and in terms of, well, what the heck else are y’all doing that’s behind the curve?

      1. Blue*

        I wonder if there could be a compromise/concession of offering employees funds or reimbursement to purchase a good bag with a laptop compartment.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Every company that has given me a laptop that required me to commute with it provided me with a backpack. I still have some very nice laptop backpacks.

    3. SnowyRose*

      Definitely not in the minority, and that’s what ly I disagree with this part of Allison’s advice:

      “I agree and I’ve made that argument, but unsuccessfully.”

      OP 3 is a deputy lead for their department. You can disagree, you can bring up alternate consideration, etc., but the decision has been made. In fact, it appears that this isn’t actually new and their department is out of step. It’s their job to carry the message and not make it seem like this is some crazy or ridiculous policy when in fact, it’s pretty standard.

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      We used to have desktops also for some people, but they got rid of those a few years back.

      Considering that my prior workplace made departments share laptops (if they were deemed necessary), I much prefer one laptop per person with docking stations.

    5. Mariana Twonch*

      Yep. “Livid” is such a hugely inappropriate overreaction to something that’s very normal and standard for virtually everyone with a hybrid work setup. Change is hard, I get it, but if these people keep complaining then they’re going to ruin the flexible arrangement for everyone.

      1. H3llifIknow*

        This reminds me of the letter from the OP whose office had switched phones and they now had fewer programmable buttons and were LIVID that they had to now choose who their “favorite” contacts were, etc…

    6. Everything Bagel*

      I also worked at a company of about 20,000 employees for nearly 20 years and standard practice was people who used laptops took them home at night and back to the office in the morning even when we were fully in the office pre-pandemic. The company provided the laptop bags, and most people opted for the backpack style. I’m quite surprised, if my understanding is correct, that the company has been providing computers for the office and for employees’ homes all along. When COVID started, positions that typically only use desktops because their jobs require them to be in the office were issued laptops to use at home while we were not allowed in the office. Those employees kept those laptops when we were allowed back in the office and realized the convenience of being able to work from home if they wanted, such as, when they had people coming to their house to do work or they were sick but well enough to work at home. I find it shocking that people are pushing back against this.

      People, just take the laptops. You will adjust to carrying or wheeling them in everyday. You can also stuff all kinds of things in your laptop bag…your lunch, an extra jacket, sneakers, whatever. Embrace it!

    7. Hell in a Handbasket*

      I think it’s standard almost everywhere. I’ve never heard of anyone being given two separate computers! LW1, I get that this change could be annoying to adjust to, but I think pushing back on this is going to make you all look wildly out of touch.

    8. I Have RBF*

      Over the last two-plus decades when I worked in office, I had an option to WFH when needed, and I was issued a laptop and a backpack to haul it with. My home office is set up for it, including my preferred keyboard, pointing device, and monitor.

    9. Always Tired*

      I hate to pile on ragging on OP3, but this absolutely falls under first world problems. Is it the most convenient thing? No. Is it incredibly normal and reasonable? absolutely. Who thinks it’s a good idea to burn social capital because the company is only providing one computer instead of two?

    10. Hydrangea MacDuff*

      100 percent agree. I work in a relatively conservative public industry and the laptop/dock has been standard for us for a decade. I sometimes leave my computer at work (we aren’t expected to bring them back and forth) but most days I slide it into the nice compartment on my bike bag and commute to and from the office with it. I also really appreciate the flexibility ilty to dock in a different site or in one of the focus rooms in my home base site. I don’t want to pile on and there may be nuances I am missing but this bike commuter doesn’t think twice about it! If I have a stop on the way home I just carry my bag in with me.
      For people with diagnosed and eligible disabilities, a second computer could be an accommodation, I suppose, but it seems somewhat wasteful.

  4. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    #3, Huh, this policy seems totally normal to me. And weird to push back on.

    The employee concerns seem a little… overblown to me.

    I mean, “what happens if it gets broken or stolen” is a question that can be answered.

    And “they won’t be able to go out and socialize after work as they will be lugging a laptop around.” Okay then, if you can’t have your laptop bag/backpack with you (I’ve lugged mine into plenty a restaurant), then leave it in the office and come back for it later, take it home first, or leave it in the office and work from the office the next day. All of these will allow socializing after work.

    1. Scholarly Publisher*

      Exactly. It’s a bit of a pain to haul my laptop with me when I run errands after work (my vehicle has no trunk, so no way to stash the laptop out of sight), but it’s an annoyance rather than an impossibility. If I want to do an evening event where it’s not feasible to have the laptop along and I can’t go home first, I’ll leave it at work.

      I can see providing a second machine as an accomodation for someone who has joint or mobility problems that really do make it impossible for them to transport the laptop. I also think it’d be reasonable to ask for clarification on “staff are responsible for keeping the equipment safe”, but then again, a company that’d make an employee pay to replace a laptop if they were mugged on the way home from work would also likely make the employee pay to replace a laptop stolen if their home was broken into while they were in the office working on the office computer (and in either case would suck as a company).

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        I think unless someone was repeatedly careless and had 2 or 3 laptops lost or stolen (that might be grounds for firing) due to reckless mistakes like leaving it unattended or forgetting it on the train/bus, I think most companies would cover the replacement the same way if someone accidentally knocked it down and broke it or spilled water/coffee on it.

        But I would say even 100% accidental spills/breaks by the 2nd or 3rd time it might be reasonable to let that person go or have them cover the cost of the replacement.

        But most companies generally eat/cover the first few employee mistakes.

        1. lanfy*

          And I am notoriously clumsy, have been carrying laptops around on the regular for at least, oh, twenty years, and have yet to break or lose one.

          1. NameGoesHere*

            I’ve left mine on a bus once. Luckily just before the route looped around a pedestrian-only shopping street, so I was able to race it to a later stop and grab it with only minor embarassment.

        2. I don't work in this van*

          About 18 years ago, I worked with someone who had one work laptop stolen out of the trunk of her car (because she was tailgating at a football game with it in full view), another one thrown into the lake (because she was apparently sleeping with someone else’s husband), and another vanish on a sales call (at a bar). They still. kept. giving. her. laptops.

          FWIW, I’ve been working desk jobs since then and have never had a desktop computer, and always carried my laptop to and from work each day. Never been a problem.

        3. TGIF*

          You’re right, and I disagree with companies covering stupid mistakes. I had a co worker break a monitor at home because of his cat, and I felt he should have paid for it. I would have expected to.

          1. H3llifIknow*

            I think one replacement and a “ok now that you know your cat is a problem, manage the problem,” is a good compromise. WFH with issued equipment does involve some learning curves for people who aren’t used to it and maybe don’t know how their cat is going to behave or didn’t expect they’d knock their coffee cup on the keyboard. I wouldn’t penalize for a first time accident, but would make it clear that going forward there would be consequences.

        4. Eukomos*

          Maybe if they were entry level, but if their skillset is at all specialized it’d be more than the cost of a couple laptops to train a replacement. You’d either have to be not that critical to the company or pretty damn reckless with the equipment to make it a firable offense, competent employees are very valuable.

    2. English Rose*

      Exactly, adding my voice to the chorus here that carrying a laptop is how our org functions too. We work hybrid hotdesk and have docking stations at work plus lockers for our things.
      OP, think of it as a small price to pay for the flexibility your team gets.

    3. hoop earrings*

      This is hilarious that it’s inconvenient to go and socialise with a laptop! My entire department of 90+ people has gone out to the pub, park or other activities, most of us with laptops and it was a total non issue.

      I think this is where the advice given is not really going to fly in a 2025 business environment. Norms have changed substantially in the past 15 years and it’s accelerated due to the pandemic.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      The only laptop my department has broken got pushed off of a desk in the office.

      We don’t have to take ours home at night unless we’re WFH the next day, so its apparently less of a problem for us than for some organizations, but we’ve had tablets and docking stations for years now.

  5. Dobby's Socks*

    Already kinda been mentioned, but can someone elaborate why the policy is bad in letter #3? I’ve only ever had a work laptop since I started working (in 2022). I’ve also only ever worked in hybrid set ups, so I have a docking station at home and in the office. I’ve always just carried a backpack (currently using a messenger bag) with my tech and office supplies as needed. I don’t see why it’s a bad policy or why folx are up in arms about it.

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      Honestly I think it’s just a minor inconvenient change. But because it’s a change for this office, they’re picturing a huge inconvenience.

      It is nicer to not have to lug a laptop but also have option to work from home or the office without planning.

    2. Tiger Snake*

      Firstly, I suspect there’s pushback because people can see that laptops mean that the company can decide all desks are hot desks, and We Have Stuff.

      Secondly, there’s actually a heap of hidden extra costs that I have to pay for WFH now, which weren’t there before. If you had a desktop, chances are you’ve been doing WFH via a remote connection or VDP. You’re not going to have all the extra equipment at home for a laptop. You’re not going to have the desk space, or the technical pieces that let the laptop use your home desktop microphone, camera, screens. I would have to go out and buy more equipment, a new bigger desk, and reorganise my entire home workspace to accommodate it, and work isn’t paying for any of that.

      1. stratospherica*

        LW3’s letter says that they already have laptops (which were hitherto exclusive to WFH) and necessary equipment at home. It appears that they’d just be using the same laptops in the office, and the policy is for them to take it with them wherever they’re working, whether that’s home after working in the office, or to the office after working from home.

      2. allathian*

        Sounds like these people do have all the extra equipment at home, or else are used to working with just the laptop at home. The issue is that they’re taking away the desktop at the office and replacing it with a docking station.

        Oh well, at least the company’s sensible and providing company laptops rather than requiring employees to use their own devices, a security risk for the employer and a privacy risk for the employee.

      3. Cmdrshprd*

        “Secondly, there’s actually a heap of hidden extra costs that I have to pay for WFH now, which weren’t there before.”

        Sure there are extra costs but if you don’t want to pay them you can just work in the office 100%. The company is not requiring people to WFH but rather allowing them to WFH as an employee benefit. I would agree with you if the company was requiring WFH so they could decrease their office footprint. but they are not they are allowing people to go into the office everyday if they don’t want to bring the laptops home.

        There are added costs and discounts to WFH. I save on commuting costs, gas/transit fare. I have higher electricity at home, etc… But having a few days to work from

      4. bamcheeks*

        What extra equipment are you talking about? They already have laptops and work from home on them, so presumably they have workspaces and are either comfortable working on the laptop directly or they connect it to a keyboard/monitor/mouse. Why would they need more equipment at home because they don’t have desktops at work?

      5. Eldritch Office Worker*

        “I suspect there’s pushback because people can see that laptops mean that the company can decide all desks are hot desks”

        I have yet to see this happen at a company with this policy, and desk usage norms are usually a completely separate conversation from laptops.

      6. What_the_What*

        Huh? I work for the govt. My home office set up is a laptop/very small docking station, 2 monitors (they issued them to me, but they aren’t mandatory; I just don’t like small screens), and I use a VPN to access network resources. I have a headset with mic for Teams calls, etc.. What on earth are you on about with “all that extra equipment and having to reorganize your entire workspace”???? The OP said they have laptops and equipment ALREADY and ALREADY WFH, just not everyday.

    3. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      I mean it does sound nice to not have to remember to bring your work laptop into the office every day you go in since you already have a computer there. Laptops have gotten smaller over the years, but even in 2017 when my org took away my desktop and gave me a laptop, that things was huge and clunky to the point that other orgs would joke about it when I pulled it out at meetings. First world problems, I know, but my shoulders are happier that I did get a smaller laptop the next tech refresh. Plus you never have to worry about what happens when you don’t bring it home. Prior to COVID my org had the culture that you’d leave your laptop at work M-F (we were also a very rare telework group at that time). They would always make a big deal about remembering your laptop if it was going to snow so you could telework. If you left it at work (and had a telework agreement) and the site was closed, you had to take leave. And for socializing after work, I can see it being annoying going from just having like your phone/keys/wallet/work id in your pocket or small purse to having to carry a bag with you and keep tabs on it (our happy hour groups would cover multiple tables so you would leave your bag in one place and often have to glance back at it if you went to another table to socialize (or maybe that’s just me, I’m always afraid it’ll get up and walk away haha)).

      It’s just overall nicer, but nothing I see dying on a hill over.

      1. What_the_What*

        “I mean it does sound nice to not have to remember to bring your work laptop into the office every day you go in ”

        Is it that hard? For me it’s part of the routine along with grabbing my keys, lunch and sweater, etc… I pack it in my tote the night before and it’s by the door. The day I can’t remember to grab my laptop to take it in with me to the office, is the day I retire or see a doctor!

        1. JustaTech*

          It can be a bit of thing when you’re getting used to it, especially if you don’t bring it in *every day* – I absolutely had coworkers who would get most of the way to work and realize they’d forgotten their laptop and turn around to get it (and then just end up WFH because the drive was too far).
          I’ve done it, but at least I live close enough that I could just go back for it.
          Now our solution is that we have a couple of laptops you can use as loaners so you don’t have to go home.

          But it’s not the kind of thing that’s a problem every day, it’s something that’s an issue once or twice and you develop new systems.
          (I should really get back in the habit of brining my laptop home every day.)

    4. hbc*

      I can maybe understand getting an accommodation (two laptops?) if you have a medical condition and commute that makes toting around a laptop a legitimate problem. But the rest of it just seems to be Change Is Bad.

      I’m honestly a little gobsmacked that multiple grown adults are complaining about having to check the weather forecast and bring their laptop home if there’s a storm predicted.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes I can confirm this a common accommodation if carrying the laptop is a medical burden.

        1. UKDancer*

          Yeah I’ve one colleague with 2 laptops because she’s in a wheelchair so it’s hard to carry the laptop home with her on the bus.

          I’ve a few others who have wheeled cases for theirs rather than the usual rucksack because of back issues. Most other people
          just use the company provided rucksack and it works fine.

          1. JustaTech*

            Yes about the “company provided” bag!
            My company has never provided me a bag – I got one from an ERG (that has since folded), but I’ve never gotten a “company” bag – and honestly the bag from the ERG isn’t very good – it’s fine for daily commutes by car, but for flying I use a different bag, and if I took public transit I would get a backpack.

            1. UKDancer*

              When we got laptops everyone was offered a bag. Most people took the standard rucksack but there was the option of one with wheels if people wanted that. I don’t know many who did and the ones I do know had back issues.

              In London most people find a rucksack easier on and off public transport.

        2. Nightengale*

          thankfully I have this accommodations. 4lbs extra is a lot for me. I know I’m disabled and that my life experiences are going to be different, but this thread has really brought up just how different.

          I’m definitely going to put this one in the next unpacking abled privilege list I make. “4lbs here and there doesn’t make much difference to my commute or daily plans.”

    5. Colette*

      It is more inconvenient to have to bring a laptop back and forth. I know now that I don’t have an assigned desk but have to go in to the office to take Teams calls in an open office, I’m less likely to go anywhere other than directly home because its a pain to carry a laptop everywhere – they are somewhat heavy, and putting the strap of the messanger bag across my chest causes me problems with asthma.

      But the policy is pretty much standard; it’s just a downgrade for these employees.

      1. Sandwiches*

        Have you considered switching to a backpack or roller bag instead of a messenger bag? I also find the diagonal straps uncomfortable and my back is much happier with the evenly distributed weight of a backpack.

    6. Amari*

      I’ve only ever had a work laptop… since I started working full time 15 years ago. This is extremely common and not a difficult thing to manage, I’m pretty baffled.

    7. Lacey*

      Yeah, I think #3 is a pretty normal policy. I have a friend who works a hybrid job and they have that policy.

      But I have another friend whose job is always in office barring exceptional circumstances and they’re required to take their laptop home every day, just in case.

      It is very annoying if they need to do something after work as they will be held responsible for losing the laptop or having it stolen and therefore have to choose between risking it by leaving the laptop in their car or lugging it about with them (it’s quite a bit heavier than a personal laptop would be). But it does seem to be a commmon practice.

  6. Weaslgrl*

    #3: Having worked in very large Fortune 500 companies for over 30 years, one computer (laptop or desktop) per employee has been the standard since laptops first became a thing. In prehistoric times when laptops weighed as much as a cinderblock, we carried them in laptop briefcases or backpacks while commuting and while traveling. I’m very surprised to learn that there are still companies who would pay for an employee to have multiple laptops.

    1. Area Woman*

      A reasonable compromise might be issuing padded backpack or bags for carrying while commuting by any type. Both my company and my husband’s company provide really nice travel bags for this exact reason.

      And the end of life on the PC absolutely can be incompatibility with secure operating systems versions that are no longer available. I even had a computer at home that had a graphics card incompatible with Windows 11 so we just had to replace it or the OS would have no more support or updates. That is likely the cause of the hard deadline.

      1. Kal*

        And given the policy was announced a couple years ago, it sounds like they did put it off as long as they reasonably could. Its likely that a lot of other people working there have already made that change and so the answers should be available, and they could likely also get tips on how to handle the transition.

  7. Skoobles*

    Adding to the chorus on letter #3, the policy for laptops is extremely normal and you/your team would, frankly, look extremely out of touch and whiny to push back on it. A laptop bag is not an unreasonable burden at all, and depending on what your job roles are, being able to bring a laptop into meetings may actually let you be more efficient in the office as well.

  8. AllTheKingsHorses*

    For #3, I agree with the other comments that it seems like standard practice for a work laptop to be carried between home & work. However, I would be more negotiating having a couple of ‘spare’ laptops which stay in the office – even if they aren’t broken on trip in, computers do fail at inconvenient times & having a couple may help for a last minute hotdesk / laptop goes on strike.

      1. Another Kristin*

        This sounds like a good idea, but in practice the most unreasonable person in the office will just “forget” their laptop every day and it won’t be available for genuine emergencies. It’s better for your IT department to have laptops available to lend to users who forget their laptops or for when their laptops need repair.

        1. Nobby Nobbs*

          Eh, it’s generally worth giving people the chance to be reasonable. They might surprise you, and if they don’t it can be handled.

    2. Former Gremlin Herder*

      We have this informally in my office-I’ve occasionally forgotten my laptop at home and it’s been a real lifesaver to be able to be able to use a spare laptop until I can run home.

    3. DataSlicentist*

      Our IT department has “loaner” laptops that I’ve definitely loaned on the occasions I got to my desk and realized the laptop was on my desk at home.

    4. H3llifIknow*

      This only works if everyone has “roaming profiles” so that they can see their work/desktop/whatever from ANY laptop. This wouldn’t work in our org, as we log in with govt issued smart cards and I, for example, can log into my husband’s laptop, but I won’t have access to any of MY stuff, other than webmail.

    5. Orora*

      I was also wondering if it would be possible for the employees to take the “obsolete” PCs home and use them for work done at home. It doesn’t hurt to ask if this is a possibility. Desktops connect to the internet and VPNs as well as laptops do.

    6. Sillysaurus*

      Yes, we have a little fleet of extra laptops at my office (hospital clinic) and it’s so helpful! They can be used by students/interns and also by people who forgot their laptop that day.

    7. mbs001*

      Having extra laptops at work won’t suffice because they have to be configured for the specific user. But I agree that they are very out of touch if they think they should have a PC and a laptop.

  9. Tiger Snake*

    LW1 – do you remember school excursions? The ones where you needed parental permission to go on them? If you didn’t get permission, it wasn’t a day off; you still had to go to school. And you still had lessons and learnt things at school that day, because it was not a holiday, but still a school day.

    Work events like this are exactly the same thing. It’s not freebie day: your employer is paying people to attend the team building because they consider it a TYPE of work and it is a work day. These are the hours your employment agreement stipulates, and you get paid on the expectation that you work them all.

    So, if you’re not on the excursion, you do normal lessons. If you’re not doing The Special Work, you’re doing normal work.

    1. Thepuppiesareok*

      To be fair it seems like LW1 doesn’t object to working. They object to having to do their work and their coworkers work also. Which is fair. Coworker doing a different type of work doesn’t change the fact that LW still has the same 8 hours to work as any other day and expecting them to do 2 jobs that day is unreasonable. Which means LW needs to follow Alison’s advice and talk to their manager if their workload is unreasonable those days.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Yeah, covering someone else’s job is the only part of this that’s objectionable. But it doesn’t sound like the workload is unreasonable, because the LW says they have to cover for their coworker instead of doing their own work.

        1. Cookie Monster*

          Right, which means they can’t get their own work done. Unless the manager is pushing back their deadlines or something, this negatively affects their productivity.

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            But wouldn’t it be the same result if they attended the team building? Either way the LW isn’t working on their own stuff that day.

        2. H3llifIknow*

          Makes me wonder if they have to cover say a front desk/receptionist/phone answering function that keeps them from their own desk/job. I could see that being annoying, but if it’s a place of business that needs someone to do those things….well the person who says, “I dont’ want to go to your event, I want to stay here,” is going to be the one stuck doing it.

          1. Allonge*

            That’s what I thought – a manager gets to decide which job is covered on a day where most of the team is out and there are some obvious choices.

    3. Zona the Great*

      Love the phrasing! We called them field trips and took the yellow school bus no matter how far.

    4. Mary*

      Yeah, I have to be honest, I was kind of slow blinking at OP #1, and I think this is the best explanation why.

      1. Just say non*

        Me too, although it was more like fast blinking because I save my slow blinks to tell my cat “I love you”.

    6. Emmy Noether*

      Yeah, I’m not sure what the letter writer expects? A day off? Think it through from the company’s perspective – why would they do that? Especially since it would predictably lead to about 97% of employees opting for the day off (the remaining 3% being those who enjoy teambuilding events).

      1. Earlk*

        People who refuse to do team building days always assume that everyone on them is having the best time and shouldn’t be paid for it but if they got over themselves for 2 seconds they’d realise some people are just there to build connections in their team to make work better and not just have to sit with the miserable people who can’t grasp the idea that being nice to each other is better.

        1. Thegreatprevaricator*

          I have to admit my immediate response is the slightly unhelpful ‘suck it up buttercup’. Almost all work involves working with other people to achieve common goals. Even when you’re a sole trader or independent, you still need people to help you realise stuff. It’s part of work. There are more or less effective ways of team building but it’s not an irrelevant thing to do as part of work. All work is going to have more or less comfortable part of it. One day is totally achievable

        2. Tea Monk*

          ….( looks back at the humiliating team building activities I have endured) Anyway I can be nice to people without embarrassing myself in public.

        3. MusicWithRocksIn*

          Unless you are a super extrovert or have the most amazing team ever all team building stuff is at least a little awkward and a bit uncomfortable. Sometimes they are more fun and sometimes they are more awkward. To take the school thing further – it’s like an assembly, not super fun but at least you aren’t in math class.

          I can’t honestly say with any certainty that this kind of thing really improves my work – but it does make me more comfortable socializing with my coworkers and more comfortable around the office in general. I think it’s worth it even if it’s a bit awkward, but that’s a personal decision for everyone.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            It seems like LW is switching lens when viewing the team building activity.

            Lens #1 – Team building isn’t good, worthwhile, it’s preferable to just go to work like normal instead of having to do the team building activity. So I choose to skip the team building and go to work.

            Lens #2 – Team building is fun, preferable to having to work. Why do my co-workers get to spend the day doing the team building activity I have to work?

            Either getting to go to the team building event is preferable to working, or it’s not. It’s a work day, going to the event or going to work are the only 2 options. (no third magical “free snow day! I don’t have to do anything work related!” option)
            The only thing LW could bring up is their workload, priority of tasks while they are covering the office. But they still should let go of the victim/my co-workers are getting off easy and leaving me with the work vibe.

        4. Higgins*

          Very glad to see this take! It seems like LW 1 doesn’t see any value in team building, but beyond that ALSO sees it as so unpleasant they’d rather not attend. Which is fine. But then they’re also assuming that it is not only not unpleasant for other people, but is in fact so fun that it amounts to a day off for the people attending it, so it’s unfair to expect LW 1 to work. In order to have it both ways, they’d have to assume that no other employee feels the way they do about team building, and in fact likes it a great deal, which from a numbers perspective feels unlikely!

          1. Not that other person you didn't like*

            Yes, LW1 would do better to see the team building activity as work. So, work options for that day include attending the team building or being in office and covering for a colleague. Your colleagues who are attending team building are working. Sure, they might also be having fun – sometimes work is fun and sometimes it’s not. Which job option do you consider more pleasant? The activity or staying in office?

        5. Lenora Rose*

          I see nothing in the letter implying the person who doesn’t like teambuilding *activities* doesn’t know how to be nice to their coworkers. I wouldn’t say the two things are nearly as related as the loud proponents of teambuilding activities think.

          (I’m not at all against teambuilding activities done right, as it happens, I’m just slightly skeptical they’re that essential to team cohesion.)

      2. Katie Impact*

        It sounds like their objection is partly to having to cover for their coworkers instead of being able to catch up on their own work, but ultimately it’s also the company’s call what gets work done by whom.

        1. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

          Yeah, I was wondering if OP’s coworker had a front facing job like being at the front desk, so their org figured if the front desk people went to the team building, those that stayed behind could cover and the org could be open and do the team building at the same time.

          2. honeygrim*

            My first thought on this was “what was the boss’s plan if everyone went to the team building event?” Either the coworker’s office tasks aren’t a priority on the team building day or they are. If the coworker’s office tasks are a priority, then surely the boss should have a plan in place in case everyone (including OP) chooses to go to the team building event. If the coworker’s tasks are NOT a priority, then why does OP have to cover them when the coworker is at the event?

            If the boss’s plan was “it’s okay if none of the office work gets done, but if you don’t attend the event then you are responsible for doing your own work as usual,” then it sounds like the OP wouldn’t have a problem with it.

            But the boss’s plan seems to be “it’s okay if none of the office work gets done, but if you don’t attend the event you are responsible for covering the office work so it can get done,” then I can see why, to the OP, it feels a little like the OP is being punished for not participating in the event.

            1. Colette*

              Maybe the boss is willing to close the office if everyone goes to the teambuilding, but if someone isn’t going, she wants the office open. So teambuildng is top priority, “keeping the office open” work is second, and other work is third.

              1. MusicWithRocksIn*

                That makes complete sense. If one person is staying behind, they are doing the most important job that will benefit the company the most at the time. I feel like most bosses would make that call.

              2. Smithy*

                Yeah – this strikes me as one of those solid moments of a fairly reasonable “other work as assigned” provided these team building efforts are one afternoon a quarter or less.

                I will say that while most team building events inevitably have some awkwardness, I do think that part of them is literally to learn more about what your coworkers do at work. If the choice is to not go, but then end up being assigned the work of others – that’s another way of achieving one of those goals.

                I do think that a lot of this letter reminds me of the letter from yesterday about the specific types of challenges with younger staff. Not saying the OP necessarily is Gen Z, but this dynamic of really pushing against as assignment that they see no value in, and then ascribing only their assessment of the activity to determine what an equitable or fair option would be for them. Essentially the OP has decided that the team building activities are pointless/not relevant to work, and therefore everyone doing them is given an opportunity to not work and therefore they should also be allowed to not work.

            2. Antilles*

              I assume the plan is that if everyone goes, you close the office for the afternoon and just deal with the ramifications. If UPS shows up to deliver a package, then they leave the “sorry we missed you” sticker and you get it the next day. If a client calls reception, they go straight to voice mail and you deal with it when you’re back in office.
              But if someone’s in the office, then it doesn’t make sense to deal with those sorts of things when the person in-office can sit at the front desk and deal with those duties themselves.

            3. Nola*

              We hire a temp to cover the front desk when we have our office holiday lunch. The year a coworker declined to go to she was assigned to watch the phones.

              The boss may have a plan in place and not have needed to implement it because OP – an employee of the company – chooses to stay behind instead.

        2. Thegreatprevaricator*

          In my head the ‘work’ that is required that day is to do a team building day. And if it’s goofing off it should be pretty easy to do.

          I’m totally one of those ‘make these things mandatory’ people

          1. Nightengale*

            I mean, my actual job duties are areas I am trained in and suited for, which occur in a stable known location. “goofing off” type team building activities are typically at unknown locations assuming a set of abilities I may or may not have that have no relation to my actual skill set or training. I definitely do not find them easy. The presumption that they are fun and easy makes them actually even harder.

            1. Thegreatprevaricator*

              Yeah, I appreciate that some people don’t find it easy. Most people have aspects of work they find challenging, which good employers will accommodate but it’s very rare to make something optional because people find it hard. The letter writer referred to the activity as ‘goofing off’ which implies that it is easy.

            2. Daisy*

              This could be the situation in my office and I tend more towards the “but those days are fun!” type of responses. Thank you @nightengale for clarifying that those team building days are not fun for everyone.

        3. Hawkwind1980*

          My suspicion about OP having to do a co-worker’s work instead of their own was that it might be a misguided effort to have some kind of “team” work going on and not let OP just build a silo around their own work.

          1. H3llifIknow*

            I think that’s overthinking it. It’s far more likely that the OP is being put on some sort of front desk/reception/answering phones detail.

        4. DramaQ*

          It sounds like their objection is partly to having to cover for their coworkers instead of being able to catch up on their own work, but ultimately it’s also the company’s call what gets work done by whom.

          I was wondering if it is perhaps since everyone else is gone there isn’t much that can happen with the LWs job. Since they aren’t going the boss needs to find something for them to do for 8 hours so they are having them cover other duties.

          Like if she’s going to be there 8 hours she can cover the phones for Jane instead of doing work that can wait till everyone else gets back.

          We can’t work alone in our lab. So if I were to opt out of a team building event I would be assigned paperwork that I can do at my desk. I would not be permitted to work on my actual job duties. It was assumed everyone is going so no they aren’t going to make someone else stay behind to babysit me.

        5. Ginger Cat Lady*

          And if they don’t want to do that, they too can go and get paid for “goofing off” on the trip.

          1. Higgins*

            Ding ding ding! There’s a very clear solution here. If it seems like no one else is working at the team building event, then go to the team building event so you aren’t working!

      3. Over Analyst*

        Seriously. I actually enjoy team building events for the most part, but if the option was between that or not working I’d definitely skip the hour+ commute each way unless it was a really good event.

      4. Polaris*

        The ONLY way I’d consider a day off reasonable is if a “Team Building Event” was being held somewhere where certain employees simply were not permitted to be. And I also think that after the first time it came up, then for future events, someone needs to be making sure that people aren’t excluded based on things that they cannot control.

        (Reference point: we had a team building event in a local restaurant that happened to be in a casino. There were NO access points to the restaurant that did not require walking on the gaming floor – which in my location, required you to be 21 years old. We had interns who literally could NOT participate because they were not 21 and could not access the restaurant. This was a hard line drawn by the State Gaming Commission, who you do not cross, and they flat out said that anyone not 21 would not be able to participate, no exceptions, no common sense, no escorted by, no nothing “NO.”. Should this have been investigated before signing the contract with the restaurant? Absolutely. But it wasn’t. And no team building things have been held in this location since by the company. And yes, the under 21 interns WERE given a day off paid.)

      5. MigraineMonth*

        I genuinely enjoyed almost all of the teambuilding events I’ve participated in!

        …and I also would have taken a day of in lieu of 95% of them in a heartbeat. Even when you like your coworkers, spending time with them is still part of work, and you shouldn’t be your fully unmasked, weird, NSFW, genuine self around managers and coworkers.

    7. Greyhound*

      I did think the ‘goofing off’ comment was a little off the mark, and comes over as very judgmental. I didn’t always enjoying team building days when I was working, but participated with a good will. They can be useful if well done.

      1. duinath*

        yeah, this is something the company has chosen to prioritize and you have opted out of. the company isn’t going to reward you for opting out.

      2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        I caught this too. OP1, you’re judging the team building as “not real work”, so you’re assuming it’s a wasted day off that you also deserve. That’s not how this works! Someone—the CEO, your manager, HR—decided that team building is so important that it supersedes a regular day of work. When you disagree with them—which is what you are doing—they respond by telling you that if you don’t value this important aspect of work, cover for others who do.

        Frankly, the more you complain about this, the more it makes you look like a curmudgeon who thinks they are smarter than management. Not a good look.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Right?

        My organization does mercifully little team building but the times, at past jobs, I’ve done it, it was definitely sort of a forced fun situation. It wasn’t torture, but I think we would all have been just as happy doing our regular work for the day. It’s not something anyone does voluntarily, really.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I used to work somewhere that did this as mandatory fun. But nobody looked at my department’s calendar first. So more than once, everyone else would leave a little early, and I would go back to my desk to make sure I met mandatory deadlines. (This was the place that didn’t give laptops, so I couldn’t even sneak a bit of work in during breaks or downtime.)

        2. Rags*

          I know this is the AAM comment section where people treat socializing with coworkers as akin to the final circle of hell, but some people do actually enjoy team building and would do that if given the choice between that and working.

          1. Nobby Nobbs*

            And some people like a break in routine once in a while. A change is as good as a rest, as long as someone else is organizing it.

          2. mysterious and important*

            Yeah, this feels a bit like a scandalous confession, but as an introvert I actually super appreciate opportunities to develop relationships with coworkers around a shared, low-stakes activity. Otherwise my default is to just focus on my work, which is made harder without having easy rapport with my coworkers.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Yes, exactly! It can be hard for me to talk with people when we aren’t doing something together.

              Also, while there are clearly many companies that have awful team building activities, mine were just… kinda dumb in a fun way. Would I spend an hour of my time making candles, tasting cheeses, getting lunch at a pricey restaurant, etc? Probably not. Would I spend a paid hour doing that with coworkers? You betcha!

              (Warning: do not try with the really smelly cheeses. That conference room stank for ages!)

              1. UKDancer*

                Yes, it’s hard to talk to people in the abstract and can feel awkward (and I’m fairly extroverted). But if you have a shared activity it gives you something to talk about and a way to bond. Even if the activity isn’t something you’d choose to do if you had a completely free choice it can be quite fun.

                I’ve a friend who teaches some crafts and she often goes to corporate awaydays to run craft sessions. She says the number of times she goes in to a room where people aren’t talking and are sitting awkwardly and by the end of the session when they’ve made the small clay pot or the resin drink mat or whatever they’re all chatting away and getting on. Having something to do with your hands and talk about can make a world of difference.

          3. Jenna Webster*

            But not all of them would choose team building over NOT working, which is what the OP wants as an option.

            1. Rags*

              I’m specifically responding to “It’s not something anyone does voluntarily, really.”

            2. mysterious and important*

              No? Quoted directly from the letter:

              “I don’t mind staying at work, but I am expected to cover for another employee (who always chooses to do the engagement activities) instead of being able to do my own work.”

          4. LaminarFlow*

            LOL and thank you for this! I find the constant negative sentiments on socializing with colleagues on AAM to be a bit draining. Most people don’t totally love team building events, but they happen pretty infrequently, and there is usually some point of genuine fun to be had if the event is accessible to all participants.

            I know there are some folks who don’t socialize at work, and they make it very known that they aren’t friends with colleagues. That is certainly an individual choice, but I have found a correlation between the non-socializers and the level of anger when they need help in a pinch, and nobody jumps in.

            I have 3 very close friends that I have collected over the years in my career. We spent a lot of time together, and being in the trenches of companies can create a weird and special bond.

      4. Dawn*

        This is exactly why OP is having such a hard time with it; the business sees this as a legitimate business activity, but they can’t stop thinking of it as “goofing off” and so they’re bitter.

    8. Nightengale*

      I didn’t go on a trip. Every trip I had been on in 5 years at that school had been a disaster and my mother finally agreed not to make me go on this mountain climbing thing. I was less disabled then than I am now and didn’t have any diagnoses at the time but she still realized having my classmates – who already didn’t like me – watch me struggle up a mountain in the name of team unity wasn’t actually going to contribute to unity.

      The thing is, I couldn’t go to class as usual. I was a junior and there were a few seniors in my math and French classes, but the rest of my classes were all on the trip. Our math teacher was also on the trip. There were no lessons to do. They just had to find a place to put me. I ended up getting permission to put me on the stage painting scenery for the show I was set designing.

        1. Nightengale*

          In their own classes mostly? This was a small private school. My French 4 class was maybe 10 juniors and 3 seniors. So we had that class although we couldn’t really do a whole unit that most of the class would be missing. I think we discussed a poem or something. My math class was maybe 14 juniors and 2 seniors and I forget what we did. But the rest of the day the seniors were in their senior history classes, senior English classes, senior physics classes, just as usual and it wouldn’t have made sense to stick me there for 3 days

    9. Productivity Pigeon*

      That’s SUCH a good way of thinking about it!
      (Ironically, I hated field trips but I really like team-building activities. I find them very valuable, but maybe I’ve been lucky to mostly encounter good ones, and to have worked with people I don’t mind spending time with outside of work. Your milage may vary.)

    10. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I would suggest that LW1 go to the team-building activities once in a while, if for no other reason than to make them find someone else to cover for Chatty Cathy. And while you’re there, maybe talk with a few people? It might be a learning experience.

    11. Baunilha*

      Our holiday parties are always scheluded for regular workdays and work hours, so everyone can participate. If you don’t go to the holiday party, you’re expected to work, since it happens during work hours anyway.

    12. Emily Byrd Starr*

      There’s a difference, though: If you don’t go on the field trip, you’re only doing your own lessons; and not your lessons plus your classmates’ lessons.
      Work is not like school.

        1. Emily Byrd Starr*

          Ah, I missed that, but my point still stands. The kid who doesn’t go on the field trip doesn’t have to do the other kids’ lessons instead of their own.

          1. nnn*

            Because that wouldn’t make sense. It’s a different situation than being paid to do the work you company needs to have done.

          2. Kal*

            I did. I often just got put in with the other class and did their lessons that day – and they were often at a very different place so I would, say, have one class of a random bit in the middle of Charlotte’s Web then be back in my class doing Bridge to Terabithia the next day. It was a little silly because of the lack of education continuity, but happened. That one class was all I ever read of Charlotte’s Web, btw.

      2. Tiger Snake*

        You’re right, work is not like school. At work, there is a key deliverable that everyone is working to. At work, you have your most common duties, but you can and should expect that you will be expected to temporarily take on other duties and responsibilities in certain circumstances. That’s why your work agreements statements have something to the note of “and other misc duties when required”.

        And today, what is required is to cover the Keep The Lights On, urgent tasks and prioritise those over the other work that LW1 would prefer. Because work is not like school – you don’t get to chose what your work assignment is.

  10. Pumpkin cat*

    Laptops are much lighter now, but maybe 15 years ago (when they were still pretty heavy), my state job had a policy that my group of 5 people all had to take our laptops home every night. We never worked from home (wasn’t allowed), but this was in case the building fell down, multiple people in the office died, and our group would be then be responsible for sending payments out to the counties. My group didn’t send out payments, we didn’t know how to or have access to the payment systems – a group tangential to ours did this. So – yah, how this made sense, I don’t know. I have orthopedic issues, so even though I drive, lugging that laptop was a literal pain. I also lived in a (hip but) rough part of town and parked on the street (unlike my suburban coworkers) so couldn’t leave my laptop in my car, so more lugging of the thing inside. My boss was the type to check if we complied with his crazy directives, so what I did was pop my laptop out, put it in my locked desk drawer, then waltz on home with my empty bag (which was big enough for a laptop). I really disliked my bully of a boss, so this small disobedience felt wonderful.

    1. lanfy*

      This was part of the disaster recovery plan in a place I worked ten years or so ago, and it was because back in 2005 their office actually *had* been completely destroyed, and they *had* kept the company going by reconstructing everything from the data on the laptops people had taken home.

      So yeah, if your group’s work actually had any value to the company, that requirement made perfect sense.

      1. Whoopsie*

        In addition to all the work and labor issues that came from Disney’s sequelitis in the 90s, Toy Story 2 famously almost didn’t happen after its data storage bank was accidentally wiped clean. The movie was saved by the AD, who had recently had a baby and had taken her physical computer tower home to keep working, meaning she had about 90% of the deleted files.

        A laptop is nothing compared to a computer tower.

      3. Pumpkin cat*

        We didn’t store any information on our laptops (all on shared drives), and the servers for those shared drives were housed offsite (and backed up at a third site). It was just a crazy thought my dumb boss had, not an actual COOP. The work we did had nothing to do with the payments. Also, the payments could actually be reconstructed from publicly available files, so technically the internet archive site could also be considered our backup too, plus I’m sure most of the counties had downloaded our template that says who gets what so there were prob 100 versions floating out there.

        1. lanfy*

          Ah, in that case I can see why that would be frustrating. Not least, I assume, because it indicated that your boss had no idea what you actually did or how…

    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      We had this stupid rule at my job that when we started we could choose either a smaller or a larger laptop, but if we changed our minds along the way, and say, wanted the lighter model, we needed a doctor’s note.

      (I changed my mind about six months in and ended up using a copy of a note I had when I had to take two weeks’ off for lumbago. That technically wasn’t bothering me anymore, but it got around the rules…. ;) )

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        When I was issued my first work laptop back in 2008 (I think– definitely before 2010), I got a nice small light one. My IT person was really surprised and asked if I had back problems or something. Nope, just lucky. And I only got the laptop because I had started visiting clients and giving presentations– before that it was desktop or nothing. I kind of miss those days, when going home meant going home. We didn’t even get Remote Desktop until 2011 or so.

    1. allathian*

      They had laptops too. That’s why the complaints sound so out of touch, a perk that most people never had, two company computers, is being taken away.

      1. KateM*

        I definitely feel like a couple years from now, this story is going to be told as the new “people lost their minds over having fewer speed dial buttons on their phones”.

    2. Tiger Snake*

      You just remote in with a VDP or VDN session. Administrators have been doing it for literal decades. Heck, administrators were doing that before laptops were a thing, and we’ve just gotten better at it.

      Azure Remote Desktop, Microsoft RAS, Citrix workstation, Amazon Workspaces, VMWare Horizon – you have a Brower URL or an app installed on your home machine. It doesn’t touch your home machine, doesn’t read or monitor anything on your desktop, just portals you right to the office machine.

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, years ago before we were all given work laptops, if you did WFH (which was fairly common but not a regular occurrence for most people – I used to do five days a week in-office) then you’d use your home computer and log in to the VPN. The annoying thing was that I could only get web Outlook when I was WFH, but apart from that it was fine. Now of course I have a work laptop and there’s literally no difference between WFH or working in-office.

    3. KarenK*

      Originally, I remoted in to my desk PC, but when I did that, then no one else could use my workstation while I was working from home. Space was at a real premium at that point. About 2 months into COVID, I brought home a laptop that we used to originally use along with a portable projector. It’s since been replaced and it lives at my house. I have a PC at a workstation at the office, which is also available for anyone to use if I’m not working in-house that day.

      I mentioned above that my supervisor has asked me a few times if I wanted a docking station instead of a PC. I told her I was happy with my workflow as it is.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      The letter says they have desktops in the office and laptops at home. The difference moving fwd is as the desktops go out of warranty (or out of support, I can’t tell which is the case for LW3), the employer’s not replacing those. The employees just have a laptop moving forward, plus a dock for in-the-office. When the laptop gets too old, they’ll get a new laptop, presumably, but no more 2 computers per person.

      1. KateM*

        I wonder if they used to have only desktops and work only in office, then lockdowns came and they were bought laptops to use at home, and that’s how they came to have two computers each.

  12. Metal Gru*

    Letter 2 – replacement already hired. I don’t really understand how this can happen, because from a manager perspective I’m thinking about things like headcount. If the person (LW) hasn’t already resigned, that would actually be an increase in headcount for that team for an indefinite time – and almost certainly requires approval. So I have to wonder what senior management, or whoever ultimately owns the headcount decisions, have been told about the situation. I agree a conversation with the boss is imminently needed though. LW has put the boss in a tight spot though, because “I’m intending to leave but I don’t know when or have a concrete plan” isn’t actionable and just introduces uncertainty. I think even in relationships with open communication, some things are better kept private.

    1. Alison but not that Alison*

      I have had that conversation- it was a small enough industry that she would have heard as soon as I interviewed anyway but also I trusted my boss completely and I had savings that would cover me if it all went south.

      They hired my replacement about three months before I left but there was enough of work for both of us so she was quite happy for me to hang around and train the new person /pick up some projects that were on the “when we have time” list until I was ready to go. So it isn’t crazy to me that the conversation happened- but Alison is right, more conversation is needed! You should be feeling super comfortable that everyone knows what is happening and the timeline/conditions. Even if it is bad news you don’t want to be surprised!

      1. Just another commenter*

        I have too. I gave almost 3 months unofficial notice (“I haven’t set an exact last day, but for sure when school starts in August I’ll be gone”) and it worked out well for everyone. Another person on my 3-person team had already given notice and we’d started the hiring process, so me giving the heads up let us hire two people out of the same round of interviews instead of having to do one and almost immediately start over. Someone (above my pay grade) approved all the overlap we had available, so we got to do more training with the new folks than often happens. I’m not sure at the time I really realized that “okay, bye, you have two weeks left” was a possibility. It was a private university so they didn’t have to be as strict about things like that. I was so burned out that I think I would have been okay with it if they had kicked me out right then, and I was planning to live off savings during school anyway so I’d have been all right financially.

    2. MK*

      Not every organization is dedicated to keeping their personnel to the ansolute bare minimum number that is sufficient to get the work done.

      1. Metal Gru*

        OK, but there’s still an approval process to increase headcount in almost every company.

        1. hbc*

          Depending on the size of the company, the “process” might well be “Hey, Jane, OP says he’s looking to move on soon but we don’t have an exact date. I plan on starting the hiring process now and ideally OP can train the replacement before they leave. Sound good?”

        2. MassMatt*

          Who says they are increasing head count? When the new employee is ready, LW is going to be fired. The writing is on the wall. This “open communication” with the manager is blowing up in LW’s face. LW tried to think of the employer, the manager/employer is only thinking of themselves.

          This is why you never tell an employer you are leaving, or thinking of leaving. It will NEVER benefit you, and can cause significant harm. Think about this when managers fish around asking questions about whether people are looking. They don’t deserve to be told the truth.

          1. Just another commenter*

            If the new employee is working now, they’ve already increased headcount, if temporarily.

      2. huh*

        Sure, but plenty of organizations aren’t going to see a business need to keep two people in the same role.

    3. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      I could see selling it that OP was leaving soon and that by hiring for their replacement now allowed the best chance to have the new hire trained by the person in the role so that when OP left it would be a very seamless transition.

      1. Lexi Vipond*

        That works if you know you’re retiring, or leaving to start a course or when your partner moves to start a new job – something with a set date. Even in my can’t-be-sacked-on-a-whim setting it would be unusual to announce that you were leaving at some unspecified time.

        2. KateM*

          It’s like announcing you will have a baby in five months (then people can more or less know when your parental leave will start and when end and can make plans) vs announcing you are starting to try for a baby (getting pregnant can take two nights or two years – or more).

    4. Hyaline*

      I think the manager read LW’s “I’m job hunting” as a resignation without a firm date attached, but a resignation nonetheless. It’s not increasing head count because the manager was replacing a resigning employee.

    5. Ellis Bell*

      I have to wonder who suggested this open communication culture and who is most likely to benefit – OP or their employer.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        That was exactly my thought. I’m sorry, LW, but it looks like between you and your manager, only one of you is communicating openly, and only one of you is benefitting from that open communication.

        You asked what responsibility your employer has towards you, and I’m sorry but there isn’t any. A wise manager will realize that pushing you out early means others probably won’t give long notices, but your manager has already taken action based on the information you gave them, so I’m not sure that’s important to them.

        You need to talk to your manager about whether they’re planning on forcing you out, and you need focus on finding a new job ASAP.

    6. KarenK*

      It’s unusual that I have experience in two out of the five letters!

      I made the mistake of telling a boss, with whom I had an excellent rapport, that I needed to find something that paid better and offered benefits. He replaced me quite quickly, and I was nowhere near ready to leave!

      I ended up working temp for about 3-4 months, which eventually led to my next position, and almost 40 years later, I’m still at the same company (not the same job, though!).

    7. Annie2*

      I’ve been in this situation. In some jobs it’s not a big deal to have extra capacity for a bit. I was a junior lawyer at the time and the numbers in the pool of junior lawyers fluctuated a bit anyways because there was basically an unlimited reserve of work to be done. I could see this being the case for a lot of roles.

    8. Commenty*

      What raises alarm bells in my head for the letter writer is that no one has communicated about what’s happening. It would be easy to say “we’ve hired your replacement so you can train them” or “we’ve hired your replacement and can keep you both on to work on these projects for up to 6 months”… but the fact that nothing has been communicated makes me worry that the manager has hired a replacement (perhaps sooner than expected, due to finding a great candidate), and will let the letter writer go as soon as there is confidence that the replacement person can do the job. If hiring typically takes a long time at their organization, I can see why the manager would feel pressure to fill the role.

  13. Daria grace*

    #3. While maybe there should be some kind of accomodation for people who have a good reason to struggle carrying a laptop around (back problems ect) I’ve understood in all my jobs since WFH became common that carrying a laptop to and from work is just an inherent trade off you need to make in order to get the benefits of working from home. Choosing to leave the laptop at work when it’s not impossible I may need to be at home the next day is a gamble that I’m responsible for the outcome of.

    Having to carry a laptop is not really the drama they are making it out to be. Weather so bad that you cannot commute is realistically very rarely a complete surprise. Even with a quite heavy laptop it doesn’t impinge on my life that much. I often go for a walk in the city after work carrying my laptop, sometimes picking up and carrying groceries too. My laptop bag has been brought along to plenty of after work social events and times when I really haven’t wanted to take it I’ve structured my schedule so I’m working in the same location the next day.

  14. Pumpkin cat*

    I’m just throwing this out there, but I would be grumbling about the laptop thing too, even though it’s common practice. I just hate carrying heavy things around, I always have. I have orthopedic problems, and having something heavy on my shoulder messes up my gait enough to cause me problems. Backpacks are often pretty awkward over suits and coats, so you end up wearing them slung on one side anyway (also, I was a child of the 80s/90s so it’s REALLY hard for me to put a backpack on both shoulders – IYKYN). I’ve always worked in secure industries where losing a laptop is a BIG DEAL, so I would have a hard time relaxing at a bar or something with it on a seat back or something.

    For all those people saying it’s no big deal, remember there are people who are less able bodied and strong as you. I know lots of older women who complain about carrying almost anything for example. I have the type of wrists where if I pick something up wrong, I’ll be in pain for days (this isn’t a strength issue).

    1. No*

      Agree. I know it’s a very common policy, but that doesn’t make it right. I know companies where employees are required to bring their laptop home every evening even if they never work from home. That’s the company downloading their security onto the employees! How is that fair?

      1. March*

        It’s not, but it’s also a wildly different case. Letter #3 is about employees who want their employer to provide them with two machines so that they can both WFH whenever they want AND never have to carry a laptop around. Doesn’t exactly seem fair either.

        1. No*

          Well, I wasn’t commenting the case as such, just pointing out what to me is a distortion. And giving (some) employees a desktop pc + a laptop for travel and whatnot was the standard in many places not so long ago. That’s what the employees in the letter have been used to until now, it’s not like they are oh-so-entitled for pushing back.

          1. MK*

            That was only the standard with employees who had to do a lot of work travel; it’s always been an exception justified by the nature of the work.

            And the point is that no one has to lug a laptop home and back; they only do it if they want to work from home. It’s an inconvenience they choose for their own benefit.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Yes! We have people who only work in the office. They just leave their laptop at their desks.

          2. Disagree*

            A lot of commenters above are pointing out that it is incredible common to have only one equipment per user. If you are in an industry so well off that it is standard to have two equipments – good for you! But to insist on this, if cultural expectations and economy have changed, especially since the pandemic and rise of WFH, and to fail to recognize this, comes indeed across as entitled or out of touch.

            1. MK*

              I think this is what is prompting the pile-on in the comments, frankly. It’s not that it’s unreasonable to be bumped you used to have a PC at work and a work laptop at home, and now you only have one that you have to lug around. What is unreasonable is to be enraged that you are losing this perk, and to think it’s a bad policy, when it’s pretty reasonable on its own.

          3. A*

            It doesn’t matter what was standard not so long ago.

            Change is the only constant and adaptation is the only way to deal with change.

    2. Cmdrshprd*

      “I just hate carrying heavy things around, I always have. I have orthopedic problems, and having something heavy on my shoulder messes up my gait enough to cause me problems.”

      But the company is not actually requiring people to lug the laptop around. You/they don’t have to bring it home everyday they can just leave it at the office and go in every day. Or even wear it on a backpack they can use a rolling case, a messenger bag etc…

      If you are going out there are options (it might not be ideal) but you can check the back, leave the bag at work, in the trunk, drop the bag at home etc….

      I get the annoyance/pain of living a laptop back and forth. It is the reason I chose to buy a cheap laptop to use at home for WFH and ask for a desktop to use in they office. otherwise I could have asked for a laptop to bring back and forth if I didn’t want to provide my own.

      1. Pixel*

        Remember that the LW said many of their staff have chronic conditions that unexpectedly flare up and that’s why they need to work at home sometimes. So going to the office every day isn’t an option.

        1. WellRed*

          What would they have done in the not so distant past when WFH was not an option? Thats what the could do now. Though I do wonder if some hot desks with computers would be feasible.

          1. Dahlia*

            Been unable to work at all and forced to live in poverty on disability or reliant on others to support them no matter how healthy those relationships are?

            The answer to “how did disabled people do (thing) before accomodations?” is usually not pretty.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          Sounds like in the new situation, they bring their laptop home. Doing that causes a flare up, so they work from home, which they can do easily because they brought their laptop home. Continue working from home til they feel better. Rinse. Repeat.

        3. Cmdrshprd*

          The laptop provided allows them to do that they just have to bring it home with them.

          It would be different if the company said they were going to use desktops and everyone only got one computer.

          Occasionally needing to work from home due to an accommodation/disability does necessarily prevent people from being able to bring their laptop back and forth. Even then not being a le to carry a backpack does not mean they can’t bring a rolling bag.

    3. Alison but not that Alison*

      Came to say the same thing. I have had a laptop and docking station set up forover 10 years but I have learnt that the type of computer matters hugely! I originally had an incredibly light laptop that was so easy to travel with but very small screen so not comfortable to work on for long. I then moved to a more engineering style job and they gave me a much more powerful laptop with a full sized keyboard and number pad. So much more comfortable to work on but HEAVY. It was a pain to travel with and I generally left it at work unless I absolutely had to do work out of the office. There are perks of both but, if you have any say, I would suggest looking into what the laptops look like and what is needed as your next step in the fight

      1. Librarian of Things*

        With a docking station, though, you can have full-size monitors, keyboard, number pad, etc. Can you get the computing power you need from a smaller laptop? Maybe not as an engineer, I’ll grant you. But, for me, the goal is to hit the sweet spot with the smallest possible laptop that also meets my computing needs, then supplement with real peripherals. At work, my laptop actually lives on a shelf under my desk, just like my old tower did.

        My shoulder and back are very happy with my choice to ditch the number pad on my laptop keyboard. It’s a little annoying when working away from home/work, like at a conference or regional meeting, but made up for by how much more pleasant it is to carry the laptop around at the conference between sessions.

        1. KateM*

          Yep, I need a new personal computer soon, too, and that’s absolutely what I’ll go for – as small and easy as possible, with real keyboard, mouse and monitor attached.

    4. lanfy*

      And in individual cases where carrying the laptop is am actual hardship, the organisation might be open to making accommodations.

      But that’s going to be made a lot harder if everyone else is busy crying wolf because they just dowanna.

      1. KateM*

        That would be for the cases where carrying a laptop is an actual hardship AND the employee is required to work from home/travel etc. They are probably absolutely allowed to work 5 days a week from office and keep their laptops there, if that’s better for them.

        1. lanfy*

          I don’t know how equalities legislation works, but it is possible that if the new policy results in people with disabilities being effectively unable to use a benefit that other employees all have (working from home) they would have a persuasive case to request an adjustment.

          But a couple of spare laptops in individual cases of genuine hardship is a very different beast than providing second laptops for everyone because… they are apparently entirely unable to wear backpacks while cycling what.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          I don’t think it’s quite that cut-and-dry. If someone has joint pain that makes carrying the laptop a hardship *and* they sometimes have pain flareups that make commuting into the office a hardship, providing a second laptop to leave at home on unexpected flare-up days might be an accommodation the employer and employee negotiate.

          Alternately, they might decide it’s best if the employee is allowed to always WFH, or there’s a lighter laptop they could use, etc.

    5. KateM*

      I suspect “I would have hard time relaxing at a bar therefore you should buy me a second work computer” is not a very strong argument to bring to one’s employer.

    6. WishIWasATimeTraveller*

      Thanks for pointing this out. I feel like the overlap between “staff with health issues that find working from home helpful in managing their conditions” and “staff who experience discomfort or pain from transporting a laptop” would probably be significant.
      Of course, inconvenient change is bound to cause some complaints, and 2 computers does seem a lot, but there may be legitimate concerns.

      1. Antilles*

        Maybe, but if there’s a medical reason why the employees can’t carry a laptop back and forth, then the employees should be citing that as a reason and asking for accommodations. But they aren’t! Instead, the justifications they’re providing to OP are things like “being unable to socialize after work” and “who’s responsible for the laptop during our commute”.

        1. KateM*

          Yes, and it seems to me that such kind of justifications tend to obscure the important reasons. If your list goes like “then we won’t feel as comfortable when drinking after work, I’m not used to carrying a bag in an ergonomic way, people with bad backs will have pain from carrying a heavy laptop, a backpack doesn’t look fashionable enough”, it is relatively easy to dismiss it all as “gen [whatever] wants to be babied”.

    7. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I don’t think the policy is a problem, but I also agree with you that OP should ensure accommodations are available to everyone who needs them for legitimate reasons. The nature of my job means I have had to take my laptop home every night for 15 years, but when we gained flexibility to WFH post-covid my company gave everyone the option of receiving a free branded laptop backpack or buying the luggage that worked for their situation and expensing it. One of my coworkers has mobility issues and has a pretty slick rolling backpack situation.

      1. telekinesis*

        “I also agree with you that OP should ensure accommodations are available to everyone who needs them for legitimate reasons.”

        This person is a deputy team lead – not even supervisor. It’s probably not their place to ensure this kind of thing.

        Really, it’s up to each adult employee to ensure that they’re getting the accommodations they need.

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Industry difference, I suppose — at my company, someone with 13 direct reports and several indirect reports would be well within their authority to advocate for accommodations that were needed by their reports.

    8. JustKnope*

      Backpacks are not actually hard to wear over jackets. Your reason why you can’t put the backpack straps over both shoulders is because … it wasn’t cool in the 80s? I wear a backpack every day. I’m not as trendy as my coworkers with cute totes, but ergonomically backpacks are great. Laptops are incredibly light these days, to the point where I can’t really tell if my laptop is even in my backpack or not.

      1. Seamyst*

        Yes, this! I live in North Jersey and mostly WFH now, but pre-pandemic and on the rare occasions when I take the train in to work, the vast majority of commuters wear backpacks and messenger bags over even heavy puffer coats, as have I. It’s really not difficult, other than for folks with mobility issues – and that’s what roller bags are made for.

      2. Productivity Pigeon*

        I used to be a consultant… I couldn’t have made it without my backpack. (Though I admit it was hard to find one that was both light, functional and stylish…)

        I had a whole survival kit in there – everything from blister plasters to painkillers, extra pantyhose, several extra chargers, makeup and so much more…

      3. huh*

        LOL the only good point they had was about possible accommodations.

        “I’m just hardwired to wear backpacks using one strap” is not the argument to convince leadership.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        It’s also a great way to seem youthful! I like my ergonomic backpack (both shoulder straps *and* a hip strap for heavy loads) and still wear it. People on the city bus would ask me (mid-thirties) what I was studying in college.

    9. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Hahahaha, oh man, the one strap gang! I have to knowingly remind myself that there are two straps on a backpack; my right shoulder hates me. It’s just such a habit after doing that for like 12+ years! I still do it when going short distances just throw it on my right shoulder and go. Plus, I don’t think we ever adjusted the straps when we were kids, which makes it easier to use for both shoulders when wearing coats. It’s funny how unconscious bias appears in life sometimes.

    10. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Two laptops is a reasonable and normal accommodation if you have a disability. These are niche problems with existing solutions.

    11. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Yep, this is an issue, but it’s completely separate from what LW originally wrote in about. I would hope that any reasonable company would be willing to make accommodations for the small percentage of people that have documented health issues that make carrying heavy things an issue.

      I also work in a secure industry, and I have no problem with leaving my laptop bag in my locked car while I pop in to buy a few groceries. But taking it to a bar? No, that’s against the security policy. Drop it off at home, and then go to the bar is how you handle this.

    12. Samwise*

      In that case, if you are in the US, request an ADA accommodation. Accommodation = one laptop at home, a second laptop at the office (lock it in a desk drawer at the end of the day if you think a colleague might poach it, or put a giant pink sticker on the lid with your name on it).

    14. Jamjari*

      I understand that this is a concern. I don’t have orthopedic issues but I recall the laptops I had ten years ago – those things could be used as a weapon they were so heavy. However, I do see people with the little roller briefcase/suitcase. I wonder if it’s because they find those easier to haul around.

    15. Goop*

      seriously? You can’t put a backpack on both shoulders because … it wasn’t cool to do that 30/40 years ago?

      To state the bleeding obvious, I grew up only using one shoulder strap. It was stupid and bad for my back then, and I stopped doing it the minute I though about it seriously as an adult.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Wait is that what that person meant? I thought they were referring to the era of excessively heavy backpacks because soo many books, and some sort of, I donno, ongoing shoulder pain if they wear a backpack again. If they meant “I’m just used to using one strap”…that’s an interesting take.

    16. Jules the 3rd*

      I do think the manager should check in with each employee about whether the issue is security / convenience or physical difficulty, and can make the case *for a few employees* that carrying the laptop is a hardship that requires accommodation, like having a second computer at work. OP can’t do that for everyone and shouldn’t need to know medical issues, so they’ll need to approach this carefully, but it would definitely be something they can do to help their dept.

    17. Spreadsheet Queen*

      I think that it would be reasonable to request accommodation if someone has a condition that makes carrying the laptop a problem. Whether it’s a separate home machine, or that you are issued a smaller, lighter laptop (but get a second or third monitor because a 13inch screen is near impossible to work off of.) Although chances are that “accommodation” is that poof, you’re in the office 100%, and you have to check out a lighter machine from IT if you have an event where you CAN’T come to the office (weather forecast, surgery recovery, etc). You can’t be forced to carry something that is painful for you to carry, disaster recovery or no.

    18. huh*

      I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone in these comments saying that people who are less able bodied should just put up with carrying a laptop around with them.

    19. Dolphins*

      “also, I was a child of the 80s/90s so it’s REALLY hard for me to put a backpack on both shoulders – IYKYN”

      HA HA HA HA.

      Okay now that we’re back to being serious.

      Oh wait you were.

      Wow. Again—what a great counterpart to yesterday’s letter about Gen Z being too weak or whatever.

      I am also a child of the 80s and 90s. All of my jobs since 2013 (writing, admin support with heavy front desk coverage, customer support, etc) have been laptop-only, provided by the company. With the idea you’d bring said laptop home if bad weather was expected or such. For the (writing) job I held between 2020-2022, that laptop policy made it very easy for the whole company to transition to a full WFH policy by mid March 2020. Since Fall 2019, I’ve used an InCase-brand gray backpack for transporting said work laptop back and forth. It’s very sleek and professional looking.

      And because I’m no longer a child or teenager, I don’t get hung up about how wearing my backpack straps on both shoulders—the way you’re supposed to—makes me look “uncool.” Added benefit: better for the shoulders and back.

      So if you want to have a conversation about workers complain about policy changes just for the sake of complaining, let’s have a conversation about that. If you want to invent dumb straw man arguments about how “no backpack ever” would fit over a suit or nice coat (not true) and it’s “not cool” to wear a backpack the way it’s intended for proper comfort and weight distribution because we’re apparently mentally 12 forever (despite our being in our 40s-50s), then I don’t know what to tell you. There being the devil’s advocate and then there’s being willfully obtuse because you think it’s cute.

      1. KateM*

        My husband has scoliosis from trying to be a cool kid in 80s. Now he ONLY carries a backpack and ONLY on both shoulders, because of his bad back.

        1. Dolphins*

          I will sometimes use a nice tote bag as my work bag but my work laptop is actually too big and bulky for that, so I wind up with the backpack anyway. On both shoulders because it’s not like shoulder arthritis (or migraines triggered by tension in neck muscles) ever gets *better*!

    20. judyjudyjudy*

      Some of these things are grounds for a reasonable accomodations, and some of them aren’t. Absolutely, someone who can ot carry a laptop back and forth from home and will need to WFH sometimes should be given a different setup.

      I’m an elder millennial who grew up in the 90s. I use both straps of my backpack when I commute to and from work. It is silly to say you can’t use both straps if a backpack because it was uncool when you were a kid. You’re grown up now, you can make a different choice. Also, it’s totally fine to wear a backpack over a suit.

      Your argument about the laptop impacting your social life also seems pretty thin to me — I can’t argue with how you feel, but you are free to make a different choice, including leaving the laptop at work, going to drinks a bit late so you can stow your laptop at home, locking it in your car trunk if you drive, etc.

    21. RagingADHD*

      Disability accommodations often include things like extra equipment that isn’t issued to employees who don’t need it. Or the option to WFH – which these employees already have anytime they want it.

      That is why disability accommodations exist!

      But companies don’t make policies for the entire organization based on the needs of folks who require accommodations.

    22. Sara K*

      Laptops are not as heavy as they used to be. When we upgraded my organisation’s fleet we actually went for the lightest model that would work with our operating environment and that is under 1 kg. For people without disabilities that affect what they can carry, carrying their laptops is not particularly burdensome (in a physical sense).

      My office is hybrid with many people working from home from 1-4 days per week and the expectation is that people will ferry their laptops home and back to the office as needed. However if someone is unable to carry their laptop home we also offer ways that they can still work from home, whether that be a second laptop (say for someone with a permanent or long term physical disability) or the ability to use their home system to access the work network (requires installing some software). I think if you are going to make this policy workable there needs to be some flexibility to accommodate particular circumstances such as yours Pumpkin Cat. But I also don’t think it’s an unreasonable policy to have overall.

  15. Mark*

    #3 Laptops are so light nowadays that it is rarely a burden carrying them to and from work. We have been doing it as a business continuity policy for about a decade now without any issues. Staff just need to be very disciplined about not carrying extra stuff to add extra weight to the laptop bag, like charging cables, notebooks, paperwork, etc. My home setup is identical to my office setup, so all I need to carry is my now very light laptop. I find lunch, spare scarf, hat, gloves, sunglasses, pens, notebooks, cables for phones, earbuds, other electronics all creep in unless I keep disciplined. Sometimes I may be walking out of the building before realising my bag is slighter than normal because I have forgotten to pack the laptop it is so light.

    When we started with laptops they were a workout to carry around but not anymore and we found the transition to WFH at the start of the pandemic seamless. There is a greater chance of the laptop developing a fault than it being lost, stolen or misplaced I have found.

    1. allathian*

      Yeah well, we’re hotdesking at the office, and while there’s lockers to leave stuff in for the workday, we are not allowed to leave stuff in them overnight, people have been written up for doing so. This means carrying all your stuff with you every day. For me this isn’t a problem because I rarely go to the office on consecutive days anyway, but the idea of carrying just my laptop makes me LOL.

    2. bamcheeks*

      Oh yes, charging cables is a big one, actually! My last two jobs have had USB-C docks that also charge so I didn’t need to bring a charging cable, but my previous job had USB docks that meant you needed a charging cable as well. I campaigned heavily for extra charging cables at work because that was what tipped my bag over from “heavy but fine” to “seriously uncomfortable”.

  16. FunkyMunky*

    as someone who always uses VPN & remote desktop to connect to my office PC, I totally get #3 annoyance. the caveat is that we use personal computers for remote work so we still have only 1 computer per person. We are fully remote but the office is still available for us

  17. Mark*

    #4 with non native English speaking staff I have been asking them to use AI to polish their text to catch the little word misplacements, missing articles, or other slight errors that do not detract from the message in the report or presentation but can pop out when reviewing documents. Otherwise I just correct as I read and say fine, I did make some minor edits. They can check the version history if they really want to review each edit. But using AI removed that burden from me and allows me to focus more on the message.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      Yeah, technology—especially AI—is raising expectations for error-free work. If the LW keeps having to fix mistakes and it’s a pattern, I think it’s worth a broader conversations on expectations.

    2. sb51*

      Yeah, I’m mostly not a big AI fan — I think it’s overhyped and the plagiarism issue serious, but for ESL folks who can read English fine (so they can tell if the AI changed the meaning) but make a lot of minor grammar errors, it can be great.

    3. Insulindian Phasmid*

      AI is wrong so often, though. I’m an editor forced to use Grammarly for my work and it is so often either nitpicking a style issue that isn’t actually wrong, or suggesting something that doesn’t make sense. I would never ask someone who isn’t a native speaker to trust AI editing tools.

      My favorite was the time Grammarly didn’t understand “big band” as a musical term and suggested “considerable band” as a replacement. Or the meme where “good girl” is changed to “satisfactory small woman”

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Grammarly is SO BAD from a programming standpoint too, not just UX. Ugh I want it to go away.

      2. penny dreadful analyzer*

        Also an editor, and I concur.

        Also: “AI” my arse. We’ve had spellcheck for ages. Spellcheck is better than no spellcheck, but if you want stuff actually copy edited, get a copy editor.

        LW1, if the slide deck needs to be clean, find whoever in your company is responsible for making sure documents are clean and make “run your slide deck past the editor before it goes live in front of the client” (or whatever) part of the slide deck workflow. If the slide deck does not need to be clean, leave it alone.

    4. Critical Rolls*

      Depending on the industry and the AI tools in question, user beware! The tool may retain a lot of what is put into it and regurgitate chunks of it for other users, which is not great from a security standpoint.

  18. TheBunny*

    OP#1

    I can’t lie, I kept waiting for the catch. There isn’t one. If you don’t want to go to the team building, you don’t have to. Cool. But went in the world would you then expect the time off?

    I personally wouldn’t say a word. If you don’t like the tasks you are given when you don’t attend, the simple solution is to attend.

    1. allathian*

      Yeah, this is another of those WTF posts. Teambuilding during work hours is still work.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        And more work than normal work, for some. I’d go because it’s relevant to my position but those things are exhasting.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah, usually when I beg off teambuilding stuff, it’s because I WANT to stay at my desk to get work done. Everyone else off teambuilding is prime focus time for me. Only happens once a year, but still. I’m like, not only do I not want to go to happy hour, I would love that block of uninterrupted time, thankyouverymuch.

    2. Sherm*

      If no work is being discussed, I can see how one might misinterpret the activities as goofing off, but it probably doesn’t feel like goofing off when you still need to present your professional self at all times.

      1. Mental work*

        But it might even be work, mental work! For example, if you are introverted and need to put serious effort into socializing or if there is a conflict with a coworker, but you want to socialize with the rest of the team nonetheless. But that’s what “team building” is for: give people a different thing than work to talk about and hope that this opens up relationships.
        OP calling it “goofing off” comes across a bit condescending tbh.

      2. mskyle*

        Yeah, I guarantee that many (most?) of the people who *will* attend the team building event would rather just have the day off! If taking the day off instead was an option, the team building would be quite poorly attended.

    3. Productivity Pigeon*

      OP doesn’t get the day off with pay, but neither does anyone else. Not an issue in my book.

    4. Dinosaur*

      The fact that they have the option to skip the event and work as normal seems like a huge perk in my book! I have an upcoming trip to the opposite US coast and have to go a whole day early for a team-building event I’m not much interested in. No choice was offered to work that day and arrive in time for the actual meeting instead (which I’d be happy to do).

      1. MusicWithRocksIn*

        But it isn’t work as normal – it’s covering for someone else, which I suspect means covering front desk/phones, which so many people who don’t do front desk/phones hate to do. Don’t get me wrong, I think the OP is way off base here, but they need to decide which is the lesser of two evils. I think they need to embrace that the teambuilding IS actually a type of work, which is hard, which maybe is why they don’t want to do it, so don’t look down on the people who choose it.

        2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

          So if they don’t want to do phones/front desk, seems like the alternative is to attend the team building.

        3. telekinesis*

          In fact you could consider covering for someone else a kind of teambuilding. So our hero still gets to participate in the activity!

  19. Beenthere*

    #3 It’s all been said, but i do remember when we switched to laptops with a compulsory take home every night edict and everyone thought it was SO ANNOYING. Then we got over it. You just get used to taking your extra bag with you.
    All you can do is what Alison suggested and wait for it to blow over.

  20. Artemesia*

    I’m feeling very dense about the laptop thing. If they already have laptops at home is there any reason they can’t leave the laptop at work just as the PC was at work? Then work as usual at home on the laptop they have and transfer files as they always have? Or is it a security matter of having the laptop in the office and potential theft?

    I loved have a dock and being able to take my work laptop home, but I also drove and so it was easy.

    2. lanfy*

      Currently they have a PC in the office and a laptop at home. Because the new policy is that PCs aren’t being replaced, they are down to just having the laptop.

      (Like virtually every other organisation)

    3. fhqwhgads*

      I’m not sure what you mean by “leave the laptop at work then work as usual at home”. There is no file transfer. The new policy is “that laptop you had at home for when you occasionally WFH is now your primary work computer”. So if they want to use it for both in office work and at home work, they need to transport it back and forth.
      In other words it’s a people-who-have-2-computers will only have one computer situation.
      Or are you suggesting these people probably also have personal laptops and they should use that when WFH? That may be a security concern, and wasn’t floated as an option.

  21. An Editor*

    For #4, would it be feasible to ask each person their preference? Some people might appreciate having comments pointing out each mistake so they can learn, and others might have a “just fix it for me” attitude.

    1. sloane*

      FWIW, I live/work in my non-native language/country in a writing-heavy field (management consulting)

      I used to get decks back where the project lead would put a tiny little red dot over every single mistake (think: add an extra space between exclamation marks and the last letter of a sentence, which isn’t conventional in English) and it would drive me I N S A N E

      It literally took her longer to leave the notes than it would’ve taken her just to edit it
      If I had say, repeatedly confused “actually” for “currently” as people often do in these two languages, give me a heads up!! But the constant edits made me feel so condescended to, especially in an environment where I was already made to feel junior bc of the language barrier

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I wish so hard for Track Changes in PPT! The comments work fine for general notes on slides. But part of my job is editing everyone’s presentations and making sure they meet our formatting standards. And I would love a quick way to indicate corrected grammar and improvements to wording, so that people can visualize the changes better.

    3. Lurker*

      Every workplace is different, so this may be a good idea! FWIW, my mom also speaks english as a second language and at the beginning of her job some of her reports would have grammar errors in them. Her manager would just reject her submissions repeatedly until the errors were fixed. Her spelling and grammar improved dramatically after that, but I know she wishes there had been a little more dialogue about it.

  22. Bilateralrope*

    For #3, how does your employer decide if a PC has reached the end of its lifespan ?

    Depending on their reason, there might be room to argue for keeping the PCs a bit longer. At one extreme, if the policy is that any computer more than x years old is too old you could try arguing that it’s wasteful to throw away working computers.

    At the other end, if it’s due to the operating system reaching end of support or some critical software ceasing to support that hardware on a specific date, that date isn’t going to change. Connecting a computer to the internet after it stops getting security updates is too big of a risk.

    In between there are fun things like the hardware not being powerful enough for work that some people do, IT wanting to simplify support by having identical computers for everyone, getting rid of parts before they are likely to break, etc. Which might give you room to argue that some employees get to keep their PC for longer than others, though that risks complaints from those who go laptop before their coworkers.

    But the most that will happen is delaying the loss of the PCs.

    1. Myrin*

      That was actually the thing that stood out to me in this letter much more than the laptop-lugging – from the way it’s written it sounds like the company just decides the PCs reach their end of lifespan after X number of time which I would indeed find very wasteful and unnecessary if they are still working fine, able to run security updates, etc. But it’s possible that that’s just how I read the letter and it actually does have to do with firmware issues/the possibilities you’re bringing up here.

      I very much agree with you and Alison that that might actually be the point that would be worth making arguments for, although ultimately, that only prolongues the problem with the team’s grumbling OP is experiencing now.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        In my experience there are 2 things a company uses to determine “lifespan” of a machine: warranty end and support end. I had one place that always wanted a machine decommissioned when it was out of warranty – even if it weren’t out of support updates. This was for a few reasons. One was that the process for procuring a replacement was MUCH simpler when stuff was under warranty. Could get a replacement within 24 hours. Replacing it out of warranty was more like a straight purchase and generally had longer timeline. So if a machine just died, and there wasn’t a spare on a shelf that could be sent to someone, they were screwed for a bit. (This is just a bad process, I get it, but that’s what it was.) Also the cash flow planning of when stuff gets purchased. So they preferred to just do it like clockwork and not have any nuance to it.
        In terms of “this machine will be out of support”, that means either it can’t take OS updates anymore or some other security update. That cannot be left in use past that date. So there’d usually be a hard deadline (like 6 months before it’ll actually be unsupportable) when whoever has that machine has to get a new one. But usually there’s some process like machine is X years old, you can request a new one. Machine is X+2 years old, you will be forced to get a new one.
        It is unclear to me if OP’s employer is using either of these approaches or something in between.

      2. Allonge*

        You clearly have not had to work with past end of life computers. My partner’s org skipped a replacement cycle due to COVID, budget issues and some incompetence.

        Yes, technically their laptops work. Except they take 10-15 minutes to start up every day, need freqent restarts, it’s equal odds if Teams will connect to the audio, Outlook freezes if you insert more than 3 images to a message and so on. Their IT helpdesk is overwhelmed by having to respond to things like this, on top of normal IT issues. The amount of time wasted with this overall costs millions.

        Environmental considerations should absolutely come into play when determining what counts as end of life. But the determination a company makes is different than you or me saying I will keep using this private laptop until it breaks. And OP and their team will not be well served by PCs that are getting rapidly older.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This is true, but I would advocate for just ripping the bandaid off. The laptops are going to become normal and no one is going to think about them in a matter of months (except for Brenda from Accounting who will complain about them until she retires). It’s better to just stick to the date for that transition, have everyone transition at once, and be done with it.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      There’s a technical deadline coming up too.
      Windows 10 is coming to EOL and Microsoft will no longer support it as of Oct 14 2025.
      Win 11 requires a specific piece of hardware that didn’t exist before 2016 and was common but not universal after that time. (details in link in next comment)

      Win10 machines will not get tech support, or security and technical updates after this year. You can keep running the machines, but it’s riskier and riskier the longer you do it. Most companies are not going to run that risk.

      And yes, company desktops can be a decade old – my parents bought two business-class computers in 2014 for personal use, a deskotp and a laptop, and they are still running everything they need to run, including the current Microsoft office software. We’re going to have to upgrade the laptop so that it can stay current on MS Office, but we’re probably going to leave the desktop alone.

      2. Nerf*

        Yep, this deadline is why my workplace is currently replacing several machines. There was only one workstation left with a desktop, and that’s getting replaced with a laptop just like the rest of us have. I have to say that if my employee made a stink about the change, I’d internally roll my eyes about it since this is normal and identical to what the rest of us have. I’d have some sympathy about it being a change, but… it’s still happening.

  23. Bilateralrope*

    #5, If I was in the US I’d be asking to record the call after they tell me there is no written offer, even in a one party consent state. If they refuse to give permission to record the call, that would be useful information about how much you can trust what they say.

    But I’m living in a country where written employment contracts are required by law, so my perspective might be a bit out of sync with US norms.

    1. Account*

      That seems… like a combative way to start a new job. If I had just called to hire you and explain your benefits package, and your response was “I need to record this phone call” I would definitely be concerned about how you’d be as an employee. It would just be very out of step with norms (which IS a problem). But I am in the US and you’re not, so maybe it’s a cultural difference.

      1. duinath*

        yeah, i think the summary of the discussion will actually do the same thing without the bad optics.

        if you get pushback on that email, or they simply refuse to confirm in writing, that will also tell you a thing or two about how reliable that info is.

      2. Richard Hershberger*

        Yup. Instead, follow up with an emailing reprising your understanding of what was said, and inviting correction if necessary. This is standard papering the file technique.

      3. TeaCoziesRUs*

        Ehh… I would want to record the call so that I could remember everything that’s said. Benefits can get REALLY confusing, especially if they go over tiers of Healthcare, or different plans available, or how commissions are paid out is through THIS instead of THAT. It’s a lot to take in, I have Swiss Cheese for brains sometimes, and if I’m REALLY excited, I’ll miss even more. I would figure out a non-flagging way to say it, but that’s my thought process.

        “Oh! I’m so happy to hear your offer!! Please give me just a sec. I’m going to start recording this so I can keep track of the details once I come back down from this excitement.” said in a happy, flustered tone would hopefully not set off to many alarm bells?

    2. LTR FTW*

      I simply would not accept a job until I had all the details in writing — compensation, PTO, benefits, expected hours, remote work agreement. There’s far too much that can go wrong without having documentation. I’ve actually had to insist that I could not accept until I had this in hand.

      2. Librarian of Things*

        In 35 years of work, I’m not at all sure I have ever received an offer letter laying out all of the terms of employment. Maybe it’s because most of that has been various levels of government and not much privately?

        My first private-sector job out of college, I interviewed on Wednesday, got a phone offer on Thursday, arrived Monday for my first day and found a whole new manager and half the office relocated to Baltimore from DC, because the company had a reorg over the weekend and my job no longer existed.

        I think I got an e-mail as a Fed 30 years ago congratulating me on my selection as a GS-5-1 Secretary at [Agency] with start date. But since everything about being a GS-5-1 is set by OPM, benefits and leave and whatnot weren’t in it. When I started my last local government job, I got only a phone call and I had to call several times just to figure out my start date; when I arrived on day one, as directed by HR at last, was a complete surprise to my supervisor.

        That said, when I moved to a non-profit and ultimately became the director, I did implement written offer letters because I had had 25 years of weird by then that no one else should experience.

    3. Productivity Pigeon*

      As someone else in a country with employment contracts, no even getting an offer letter is wild to me. How on Earth do people agree to anything without writing it down for posterity?

      But as someone who has lived in the US, it probably wouldn’t go over well to record them. Unfortunately.

  24. ChurchOfDietCoke*

    I have been carrying a laptop to and fro between home and office for at least ten years now.

    That said, it was frustrating to say the least to see perfectly good (and totally still usable) desktop PCs piled up to be destroyed. They could have been cleared of data and shipped abroad to schools or charities. So much for my (then) company’s ‘eco-friendly’ policy :(

    1. A*

      I think clearing them of data and donating them might have been too much in time and labor for too little return on the donation market.

      This isn’t so much directed at this specific comment as it is a general observation. I think people have a tendency to overestimate the value of used items. I see this a lot with people decluttering their homes. They don’t want to get rid of stuff until it has another home or use. This is a good impulse, to be sure, but there comes a point where done is better than perfect.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        This isn’t a good example of that. Not even sure what you mean by too little return. There isn’t a monetary return. If you care about the environment, not adding to the landfill is the return.

        I mean, take the Church at their word that these were perfectly good computers. Then your entire comment is a non sequitur, not to mention a false dichotomy between perfect and whatever you imagine done is.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          The issue with old technology is often that there is no meaningful donation destination. For example, in October, Microsoft will stop providing support for operating systems prior to Windows 11. That means no more security updates unless you can afford to pay an enormous amount to Microsoft. Many older computers (including basically every computer pre-2016, and a good number after) are not capable of having Windows 11 installed on them.

          Organizations that might otherwise take older machines, like schools and nonprofit, can’t use these computers if they want to be able to rely on any degree of data privacy or security. Bad actors *deliberately* seek out this kind of older tech to compromise; it’s like painting a target on your back. The computers are functionally useless unless you are never putting any private information on them. (Yes, this kind of obsolescence is a real problem in tech, but it’s not one that an individual org can do much about unless that org is Microsoft itself.)

          In this context, “destroyed” usually means sent to recycling, but parts that can’t be recycled (like the plastic chassis) will usually go to the landfill. It’s extremely shitty, but there’s not much an individual organization can do about it if no one wants the computers. And there’s a good reason that very few orgs want these older computers: they need to be able to secure them.

    2. I Have RBF*

      Most PCs that end up EOL and discarded are that way because they won’t run the current version of Windows, and no one wants them if they won’t run Windows. Yes, if people wanted to start working with Linux, they will probably run Linux just fine. But that isn’t common in offices. And schools and charities also want to run Windows.

  25. Mornington Crescent*

    #1, I think it’s very telling that you refer to team building activities as “goofing off”.

    I get it, they’re not always my favourite either, especially if timed poorly and I’m very busy, but when done properly, this kind of networking is genuinely helpful. It’s not goofing off, it is actual work. If your team are all working, then you should be too, and you can always take a day’s leave if you feel that strongly about “don’t want to do team building OR work”.

    1. No creative name yet*

      That stood out to me too. Attending those events is still work! Getting to know colleagues outside of the office can have lots of positive impacts on your ability to collaborate, especially across teams. It’s fine if that’s not OP’s cup of tea, but it might help to reframe that others aren’t getting a free day off, they’re just working in a different way.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      Yes, the fact that the employee engagement, at a non-profit, is going to community attractions, the “work” part of it is probably building community awareness and presence — supporting local businesses, being seen in the community so that either potential donors or potential clients feel like the org is engaged. Do they wear branded shirts, or are these attractions sponsored by the org? Don’t discount that the people who are “goofing off” are still being held to professional work standards and policies while representing their employer, and not able to relax their behavior the way they would if they were just out with friends.

      1. KateM*

        Good point, putting the 2 (non-profit) and 2 (local attractions) together, I had missed that!

  26. Account*

    #1-
    If the choice was “go to the team building or get a free day off,” NOBODY would go to the team building!

    1. Susan Calvin*

      Speaking as someone who has enjoyed almost every team building activity ever thrown at me, and frequently voluntarily socializes with colleagues, I have to agree.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      One caveat – if the team-building activity is a fully paid excursion that I would not be able to afford on my own.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        Yes, this. And not just afford, but any other special group perks that general admission wouldn’t receive — a special guided tour, access to private rooms or exhibits, expedited admission, catered meal, etc.

  27. You're mother*

    LW#4, do not correct people’s grammar. It is condescending and benefits no one. I promise you that your coworkers couldn’t care less and will simply resent you for it. The culture is now that making grammar mistakes is acceptable, even at work, and that’s a good thing.

    1. bibliotecaria*

      If I were giving a presentation and there were errors on my slides, I would definitely want the person charged with reviewing my work to correct those errors! I’m not about to e.g. give people unsolicited advice on how they used a possessive apostrophe incorrectly in their email (unless I know they’re actively looking to improve their grammar I guess) but catching mistakes in presentation materials does not strike me as condescension.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Agreed, this is the point of having someone review material in the first place.

      2. LaminarFlow*

        10000% agree! Many years ago, a co-worker was presenting something, and he used the word “compliment” instead of “complement” in his deck.

        Our very well respected Director asked if co-worker meant to “say nice things about X” or if he was conveying “these things are correlated”.

        Ever since that presentation, I have asked reviewers to please call out any spelling or grammar errors I have made when they review.

    2. Insert Clever Name Here*

      No, it’s not condescending to correct grammar in something that’s going to presented to an audience. It can be done in a condescending way, but just correcting it isn’t condescending in and of itself.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Grammar can affect meeting. Correcting mistakes is a positive effect of a review.

        Presentations are expected to be polished, except in less formal contexts.

        1. Importance*

          This. If a presentation is important enough to be reviewed, it is a good indicator that it is important enough not to have spelling or grammar mistakes.

    3. JustKnope*

      I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that it’s always fine to have grammar or spelling issues at work. Depending on a specific office culture, it can definitely still reflect poorly on the person who prepared the materials. I’d just make the edits without commenting anything, assuming they were small tweaks.

      1. londonedit*

        Hmm, yeah, I work in publishing and grammar mistakes are not OK where I work! People – especially external people like authors and agents – expect our communications to be error-free. Otherwise what does that say about our editorial standards?

        Of course everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and with internal comms it is less critical (though people do generally send a follow-up message or email saying ‘There?? What was I thinking?! Not enough coffee this morning – how embarrassing!!’) but we are editors. If a colleague asks me to check over an email before they send it, and there are spelling/grammar errors in it, I’ll send it back to them and say ‘Just fixed a couple of typos, and I think we should maybe say 30th April as a deadline for them’ or whatever. Then if the colleague comes back and says ‘Oh blimey, thanks, what were the typos?’ I’ll tell them. But if they don’t ask, I won’t.

        1. Rogue Slime Mold*

          Same. (And often the typo is clearly “This sentence started as one thing, turned into another thing, but the change didn’t quite replace the right words.” It’s literally a typo, or the first reasonable assumption would be that it’s a literal typo, and the writer does know that case should be consistent or whatever.)

          Perfect grammar and spelling is not the expectation for email, especially if someone is trying to quickly clear an in-box. But for the product we’re producing? That needs to be as close to error free as one can get.

        2. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I don’t work in publishing but my CEO used to, lol. You can bet that grammar is a BIG deal in my company.

        3. Scholarly Publisher*

          Back in the previous century, I was the assistant to an acquisitions editor who continually mixed up its/it’s in writing; I routinely proofread their letters and pointed out the error so it could be fixed before mailing, and they were grateful for it. Same error in an email to me, though? I didn’t correct it; that’s not a context where it mattered.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            This!

            Helpful tip to those who can’t remember: possessive pronouns never take an apostrophe.

    4. Amy*

      No, it’s important to make corrections on errors that clients will see. I’m in a sales role and clients will absolutely pass on pitches that contain errors and seem sloppy. When you have multiple vendors, many clients love easy reasons for an early cull.

      It benefits no one to notice errors, say nothing and leave it to the client to notice.

    5. duinath*

      i think you’ve misunderstood. or i have.

      my understanding was that lw does edits on materials before they’re sent out, and was wondering if they should edit the grammar themselves or simply bring it to the writer’s attention so they can do it.

      i agree that correcting grammar socially and in conversation is poor form, but when you are producing a product the grammar is still very much in play and we can’t just let it slide.

      socially, in conversation, if we don’t understand something, we can just ask. if it’s being sent out to an audience, that goes away, and correct grammar is important to ensure the highest percentage of people reading it will understand it as intended.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Exactly. The grammar edits are happening in this context no matter what. The question was only about whether to do it and move on vs tell the author.

    6. Myrin*

      OP is talking about presentations, slides, and wanting “writing to be clear and easy to understand for their audience” (implying the errors prevent that). There’s nothing condescending in correcting that and does in fact benefit both the audience who understand what is being talked about and the OP’s company who show a polished and professional document.

      (Also, I’d be interested to know where you work – both geographically and industry-wise – where “making grammar mistakes is acceptable” just across the board; internal email to inform coworker about a meeting taking place in a different room than planned? Yeah, whatever. E-mail to a potential buyer explaining the advantages of your company’s very expensive product? Certainly not.)

    7. merula*

      It may be that there are some office cultures where spelling/grammar mistakes are acceptable, but that is far from universal.

      My staid financial services industry job requires that internal presentations, documents, and even some emails, be free of spelling and grammar errors. If you’re making “careless” small mistakes, it gives the impression that you may be making other mistakes.

      (I recognize that there are many situations where spelling/grammar mistakes aren’t “careless”, not least of which would be the nonnative speaker situation LW described, but that’s the perception.)

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, I don’t routinely fix the grammar on an ESL colleague’s work, but anything where it’s going to a bigger audience? Absolutely. Almost nothing we produce is client-facing, but I don’t want the rest of the company to judge him by his grammar mistakes rather than by his (excellent) work product.

      2. Name (Required)*

        could care less means there is actually an amount less that they could care, which means they DO care.

        Couldn’t care less means they have zero care, which means they do not care at all.

        “Couldn’t care less” is the correct term.

        Unless you are joking because “could care less” was a recent topic here on AAM – see post on April 7, 25

    9. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      You can correct grammar, but do it collaboratively, not punitively. For a while, my second-in-command was an immigrant from a non-English speaking country. We had a system where she’d send me a deck or an email for a customer and ask me to fix the English. Since she was a brilliant scientist but not good with languages, I’d happily do it. It made the business better.

      1. KateM*

        Even after 20 years of living in my husband’s country, I still run my more important papers in local language through him.

      2. Allonge*

        This. Anything that gets formally / publicly used will go through at least an informal check, even in my first language.

    10. Dust Bunny*

      In conversation? Don’t do it.

      In printed/visual material? Yes, nicely point it out.

    11. A. Lab Rabbit*

      The culture is now that making grammar mistakes is acceptable, even at work, and that’s a good thing.

      On social media, maybe, but this is work, not TikTok.

      Spelling and grammar mistakes are very much not acceptable in a professional environment.

    12. Lemons*

      I think you are referring to grammar pedants who are overly strict about things like Oxford commas, ending sentences in prepositions, and other things that are stylistic choices, and I do agree with that (presuming there’s not a corporate voice style they need to adhere to).

      Grammar mistakes that might be common due to language barriers like using the wrong tense should be updated though, and that’s not condescending. I think training the team to run the auto grammar and spelling checks built into most presentation programs before submitting them is the way to go.

    13. Silicon Valley Girl*

      You’re confusing etiquette with workplace standards. Common etiquette rules suggest it’s rude to correct a person’s grammar — usually in speech, to someone’s face, is considered rude.

      But in the workplace, for a document such as a presentation, accuracy is important, & you can make corrections in many ways that aren’t condescending.

    14. Befuzzled*

      User name checks out, lol.

      As many have said, there’s a significant difference between pointing out a colleague’s typo in an internal email, and making sure that presentation slides are error free.

    15. Gumby*

      This is really, really not true in all industries. Grammar *does* count particularly in public-facing or client-facing documents. No one is getting fired over grammatical mistakes, but you better believe that before a proposal or report gets submitted from my company it’s been reviewed by at least 2 people.

    16. Sara K*

      Nope. This advice seems very weird. You should definitely correct grammatical errors in presentations, formal documents and anything written that represents the organisation out in the world.

      By all means hold back when it comes to casual spoken conversation, internal chat messages, internal emails between peers, etc because as long as the meaning is clear it’s not helpful to nitpick and it can come across as condescending. But people who are struggling with grammar in the workplace in areas where it matters should be given feedback about how to improve, just like they should in other areas of their performance.

    17. Just say non*

      LW#4, please do not listen to the advice of “You’re mother”, who I suspect may be a troll.

  28. Mutually Supportive*

    #3 As many others have said, this is very normal and just needs a bit of planning – if you don’t want to lug your laptop on a night out after work, plan to work in the office the following day and leave it in the office over night.

    BUT as someone who cycles to work and used to have a very heavy, chunky laptop, it may also be worth engaging with the procurement department to make sure that the laptops are a sensible (small) size, and light. If everyone has a second monitor in the office and at home anyway then there’s no need for the laptop to have a big screen and that can make a lot of difference to people who are carrying it around a lot.

  29. Anon3245886*

    OP#3 – so interesting to hear the push-back on taking laptops back and forth. We haven’t had office PCs in a long time, everyone has a work laptop that you plug into a desk each day. Taking our laptops home every night has been a business continuity requirement since we had a larger than normal earthquake on a Sunday night a while ago, where a number of people couldn’t work as their laptops were stuck in the office buildings which we were not allowed to enter. Definitely a fan of taking laptops home here.

  30. Mary Lynne*

    Giving vague notice and being replaced before you’re ready – my husband did that years ago. He worked for a very small company as IT, started being vaguely unhappy and decided he would start looking at some point, and told the owner. Shortly after that he was told they wanted to give him an opportunity to find something he was happier at and let him go. He was shocked! Shocked! Very bad for us financially, but even then I was like dude! Why? What did you think would happen? Think about what you are saying to who, and what your goal is. Companies will watch out for themselves, you need to look out for yourself.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’ve more than once given several months notice/let my boss know I’m looking. It really depends on the situation and it sounds like OP just misjudged what situation they were in.

    2. Jezebel*

      This, exactly. Especially in a small company, if you tell me you’re leaving I need to make plans to replace you or my business will suffer. And I absolutely cannot afford to keep you hanging around collecting a paycheck once that replacement has been hired! Once you announce that you’re leaving, you need to be prepared to be expected to actually leave.

      1. Polly Hedron*

        But your business might suffer more because almost everyone will give you short notice and will not be able to train their replacements.

    3. Commenty*

      I’m sorry that happened to your husband (but not surprised). I had an employee give me a long notice and it made life hard for me. I didn’t want to assign them to projects that I wasn’t confident they would be able to finish, and I ended up with a lot on my plate. I also had had to be vigilant about not saying anything too soon, so I wouldn’t cause alarm for the other team members. It was a stressful situation. I’m not sure how giving a long notice is helpful.

    4. Generic Name*

      Heck, you don’t even have to say, “I’m unhappy and am going to start looking” to get pushed out. I know a young person (first job out of college) who had a sit-down with a new HR person and bared his soul and told her how bored he was and he didn’t feel he was challenged enough and oh by the way, his passion was really [thing company didn’t do]. The next day HR and management told him they accepted that he was unhappy and wanted to work elsewhere and he could stay in his job for one month and then they would have to part ways. As a manager, I quite honestly don’t want to know that you are looking for another job. Yes, sometimes it’s a scramble to find people to take on tasks/responsibilities in just a couple of weeks, but at every place I’ve worked, it works out fine.

  31. bamcheeks*

    LW3, commuting with laptops is extremely normal, and if your team pushback on it as some kind of outrageous imposition, I think you’re going to look very out of touch. That said, I do think you should look for some best-practice ways of doing this, and make sure that there is a door open for anyone to ask for specific adjustments if they really can’t carry it.

    Some good practice I’ve seen and/or appreciated:

    – a new 14” laptop is going to be significantly lighter than an old 17” laptop, and will fit in most normal bags
    – make sure you have charging cables or USB-C docks, so people don’t have to carry 1kg charging cables
    – make sure people have drawers or lockers for other stuff (water bottles, alternative shoes, whatever) that they can leave overnight, so people aren’t having to carry everything else
    – make sure the company’s insurance for lost, stolen or broken equipment is generous and they don’t pick over things like “technically because you went to the supermarket on the way home we don’t count it as commuting”
    – consider offering a small stipend for people to buy decent quality laptops bags / backpacks if they don’t already have them.

    1. londonedit*

      Yes! We have all of these things, and generally it works extremely well and has done for about the last seven years or so. We have a small budget that can be used for people to buy things that are helpful for WFH with a laptop, like an external monitor/keyboard/mouse etc, which you can also use to buy or put towards a laptop sleeve or bag if you want to. If someone needed a specific bag because of back issues etc, I’m sure the company would reimburse them in full for that.

      My laptop is quite small and lightweight, and our docking stations also charge the laptop, so all I need to take to and fro is the laptop itself and my notebook etc. I have a compact rucksack with a laptop compartment, and there’s plenty of room in that for everything I need (laptop, notebook, water bottle, tupperware with lunch, spare make-up, hairbrush, etc). I work in central London so I commute on public transport, and often go out somewhere after work, and it really isn’t a bother. It’s not like I’m lugging a massive bag around with me – it’s just an average-sized rucksack. We can leave things in the office if we want to – there are filing cabinets by the desks and those can be locked – but honestly I don’t really need to.

    2. KateM*

      In an exjob, my laptop was presented in a laptop bag to start with. Even more, they told me to keep it when I left that job.

      Lockers are really relevant only if not having PCs means they are now hotdesking, not if the only change is that they now work from laptop at work.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Yea, I was shocked when I left a role and they refused to take a company-branded notebook backpack back with the notebook.

        I prefer the over-the-shoulder, messenger-bag style notebook cases, as they’re easier on my back, but I’m guessing it was written off as advertising somewhere along the way.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          Our company just has you keep the bag too. An IT guy I’m friendly with said that since they get the things cheaply in bulk, it’s simply not worth the time it would take his department to make sure the buckles and zippers all worked, the bag was cleaned of all crumbs and miscellaneous gunge down inside the pockets, that you hadn’t forgotten a USB drive or something in a compartment, etc. to make it nice for the next person. Easier and cheaper to write it off and issue a brand new spanking bag to the next employee.

  32. JustKnope*

    A coworker of mine had his company laptop stolen out of his car while he was getting gas on the way home from work one day. His bag was sitting on his front seat, and they smashed the window and grabbed it. The company had a policy in place for what to do about stolen equipment! He called his manager, the manager started the policy moving, and everything turned out fine. It’s a thing that happens with laptops and well-run companies should be able to answer what happens if your laptop is stolen.

  33. Team Laptops*

    If carrying a laptop while walking is a problem, they could do what I do and use a rolling backpack. I put my laptop, lunch and everything else in it. It has saved my back and is easy to pull regardless of how much stuff I put in it.

    1. KateM*

      Speaking of “lunch and everything else”, I was wondering if the people who can’t carry laptop really come to work with only what they can stuff in their pockets.

    2. Cookie Monster*

      This is a good solution except if you have somewhere to go to after work. There’s a good chance you wouldn’t want a rolling backpack with you if so.

  34. A*

    3: I thought this was going to be about something much more serious than this.

    A lot of people hate change and will resist it no matter what. That’s what this sounds like, to me. I think this is an adaptable decision that people will eventually get over.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Yes, judging from the number of comments here already that this is just a perfectly normal practice everywhere else, these folks just come off as griping about a non-problem. My company has done the laptop thing for years, it’s just no big deal. Most of us use a briefcase-style bag, some of us use backpacks, a couple of people have rollers. As it allows me to WFH a few days a week, I don’t have an issue with this. This is just people not responding well to change.

      I suspect once they get used to it, they’ll actually like it.

  35. BellStell*

    Regarding team building: if done well – and inclusively – it does indeed build team spirit. I can see the perception of people goofing off. If done haphazardly it is a waste of money and time. On my former team it was always a mess because the head of team wanted a day off to goof off, go to a pool, not work, and charge the donor funds for it. No this is not ok but she was never held to account. I enjoyed the pool the one time but then was annoyed the next day when we all had double work to do and she just did not come in that day due to end of day partying as part of her team building. Some of us would rather work and leave at a normal time to get home than have faux team building events so I can empathise. I do think you should be clear on work load tho as noted by others and maybe go one time and see what happens to the workload. You do not want to be perceived as sour about it all as that will haunt you for sure.

    1. Delta Delta*

      I also think it would be worth it for OP to go on one of the excursions. In reading OP’s letter she dislikes it both ways: dislikes the excursions but also dislikes covering someone else’s work. Since both choices are things she doesn’t like, maybe switch up the dislike and let someone cover her work for the day.

      1. A. Lab Rabbit*

        I second this. They should definitely try at least one before deciding that they don’t like it.

        This very much reminded me of trying to get a toddler to try new foods that they insist they don’t like just because they’ve never eaten it before. Try it first, and then make up your mind afterward. You might actually like it!

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          If the events are frequent, ideally only some will be things OP actively hates. (Someone above mentioned a pool, and I would quit rather than wear a swimsuit in front of my coworkers, but I’m happy to volunteer with work folks or go to the park or whatever.) Maybe try one and decide which is less irritating: going to the event or covering the office.

  36. el l*

    OP2:
    Boss needs coverage. You’re leaving. More importantly, you set no committed timeline. So, good person or not, boss will do what’s best for them and set that timeline.

    Sit down with the boss and negotiate an exit date and strategy. But be advised it’s probably not going to be ideal for you. No leverage.

  37. Tradd*

    Letter 3 makes me laugh. I’ve always worked at places that supply desktop PCs. Only a few people (top managers) got laptops because they travel. The griping about having to haul a laptop back and forth to the office is such a first world problem.

  38. Helvetica*

    LW#4 – I am not a native speaker and work with many people like myself, and a handful of native speakers. Even if we all speak English very well, it is perfectly normal for the native speakers to fix such mistakes, and we sometimes specifically ask them to do so because we all want the materials to be correct. It’s not embarrassing at all; it’s a normal part of the job.

  39. BigBaDaBoom*

    3 is wild to me because at my company we’ve had only our one laptop for at least 10 years and take it back and forth and dock it at home or in the office. It’s hard for me to imagine a company that would be paying for you to have two machines, unless I’m misunderstanding the situation.

    I don’t find it very cumbersome but admittedly I do commute by car.

  40. knitted feet*

    LW3, you’ll all be fine. I have a 2-hour commute by public transport and am disabled. I still manage my work laptop in a backpack without issues. Would it be nice to just sail out with my handbag of choice and nothing on my back? Sure, but lots of things would be nice, doesn’t mean we can’t cope without them. It’s just a change, you’ll get used to it.

  41. Quinine..I need quinine*

    I think the laptop issue is one of those things that once your team does it for a couple of days they’ll realize this is no big deal at all.

  42. Delta Delta*

    #3 – Joining the computer chorus here with an additional thought. We’ve had so much upheaval and change as a society over the last 5ish years that there are some people who Just Can’t with another change. It may have nothing to do with carrying a computer or actually worrying that it’ll get lost. It may have entirely to do with the fact that this is yet another thing changing and although it seems insignificant, it feels like a mountain. Maybe OP could go to their higher-ups and advocate to get everyone on the team a set of charging cords to keep at home so they don’t have to worry about carrying that other piece of equipment, as well. Or something small that will help ease the transition.

    1. KarenK*

      I’ve been in the workforce for almost 50 years, and there have been a whole bunch of things lately that I Just Can’t! The newest thing is that our learning management system is migrating to another platform. There have been several emails about this on when it’s going to happen and how it’s going to be great!

      Don’t care. Just tell me how to access the new system and I’m good. You don’t need to sell me on it.

  43. Works in IT*

    One factor that might be influencing #3 is, if this is a RECENT ask, the Windows 10 sunset date is approaching, FAST, and any businesses with computers with Windows 10 after that date will have to pay an exhorbitant fee to Microsoft to continue receiving security updates. And a lot of older computers just don’t have hardware that’s compatible with Windows 11. IT might literally have no choice but to take them away, and fast.

    That said, a lot of the current work laptops are pretty lightweight. Would pushing for lighter/more portable laptops help?

  44. L-squared*

    #1 seems fairly normal. Even if my company gives me an “employee engagement day”, its not exactly a day off. So the fact that you seem to expect one seems to be… odd. Even if I were to choose that same activity to do on my day off, the fact that I’m there with my boss and coworkers means I can’t do exactly what I might have done on my day off. So just because you choose not to attend, yeah, you still have to work. Sounds fair to me.

    #3 The lap tops. I guess maybe I’m just more flexible, but to me, this doesn’t seem bad. Plan out your days. Most bad weather doesn’t appear out of nowhere. I find it hard to believe that if you are leaving at 5 you’ll have no idea that there is a big snowstorm scheduled for the next day where you won’t be able to come to work. And if you have a chronic health condition, I’d assume you aren’t biking and walking at that point, so those people may need to do this. I guess I’m less sympathetic because I feel like most jobs at this point don’t give both a laptop and desktop, they just give a lap top, and most people figure out a way to carry it back and forth. It’s a change, but is it worth being “livid” over? Probably not.

  45. Rogue Slime Mold*

    #2, I’m not sure of the reasoning in giving this sort of vague “Just so you know, I’m looking. Could leave in a week; could leave in a few years if the market is tough” notice. They can’t plan around your departure if you may or may not depart.

    It can make sense when there is an attached timeline (“I’ll go back to school six months from now”).

    1. Jezebel*

      You may think you’re being helpful in giving a heads up, but the information is only actually helpful if your boss can take concrete action to prepare for your departure. So don’t be surprised if they do take that action and replace you.

  46. Harper*

    LW3 – I think this laptop policy is very, very common. My current company and my prior company had the same policy. I don’t think I’ve used an actual PC at work in at least 15 years. Laptops are standard issue, and we take our laptops home every day. I personally hate carrying a heavy laptop bag every day, but it’s a must for WFH capability and/or a hybrid schedule.

    That said, I live in an area where everyone pretty much has to drive to work. There’s no public transit to speak of, and most people can’t cycle or walk to work. I’d think that for those who do, a backpack would be the best solution.

  47. Teapot Translator*

    I don’t know if this point has been raised, but I would not try to keep using PCs that IT considers end of life. My work laptop was no longer under warranty, but I didn’t want to change it because it still worked just fine. Then one day, it just stopped working. Cue panicked visit to IT. So, if IT says the PCs are end of life, they’re end of life.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Very much agreed. Also maintaining a fleet of end of life PCs AND a fleet of up to date laptops is not a reasonable expectation to put on an IT department. That’s double the machines with completely separate sets of maintenance and issues to address.

      1. Bubbles*

        Yes, my company had this set up for only the customer service staff when the return to office/hybrid schedule was created. They all had a laptop to work from home, and a desktop in their cubicle at work. It was determined the overhead to support/replace the desktops was not worth the investment, especially since the rest of the company employees all had laptops they carried to/from work. Of course, there would need to also be an investment in securing the laptops for travel purposes (carrying case/backpack) and ensuring peripherals (keyboards/mice/dual monitors) are also provided for office use. There should also be back-up equipment available if someone forgets their device at home, but that should also be a rare occurrence.

    2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      Also, crucially, an out of date device may not be able to receive security updates for the drivers or the operating system. Since security is a constant arms race between software/hardware manufacturers and bad actors, retaining a device that is not compatible with current updates puts your organization’s data at substantial risk. Those same bad actors deliberately and preferentially target older tech for this reason.

  48. Antigone*

    I agree that it’s absolutely the norm and expected these days for people working a hybrid situation to have one laptop they commute with. But I do think for your folks with medical conditions there may be room to at least consider whether two computers may be a reasonable formal accommodation to request, if their conditions are such that bringing the laptop to and fro is a true medical hardship for them. If that’s a potential option, you don’t need to be part of that, you can route them to whatever your HR process is for a formal accommodation and let that process play out. But then you should be prepared for enhanced grumbling from everyone else, and ready to shut that down if needed.

    But otherwise, get your folks some IT security training on how to secure their laptops and what to do in the event of a theft since they’ve raised that as a concern, and then move on with “this is the way it’s going to be, I miss the old way too but this is something we’re all going to have to adjust to, if anyone finds a great laptop bag for commuting please share it with the rest of us!”

  49. Workerbee*

    OP#1 You might as well go to the team-building since it’s during work hours. Especially since it’s apparently fine if no one is there to do the work at all, but magically you staying behind means you now have to cover a colleague’s work.

    Which makes no sense to me as it sounds like these excursions have been happening frequently enough that the boss isn’t overly concerned about work being done.

    1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      It depends how loathsome the activity is to OP, but it sounds like they can pick and choose. Knowing that a day off isn’t going to happen, they can decide whether to attend the excursion or not. If they’re happening a lot, OP can pick one or more to attend and skip the ones that sound truly awful. (As I said above, I’d go on the hike or work at the food bank or things like that. Anything with a swimsuit? I’d cover the phones or whatever was needed in a heartbeat!)

    2. Daisy*

      In my office (similar to OP#1’s office), if we all attended the event, then no one would answer phones or we’d figure out something. But since one person said no to the event we have coming up, then she is being asked to cover the phones and greet visitors so we don’t have to close completely. Perhaps our employee thinks similiarly to OP#1 in that it could be a day off with everyone gone, but that’s not how it works.

  50. knitted feet*

    LW1 – but it’s not just goofing off, that’s the point. If it was a free day off to mess around doing whatever you wanted, then you’d want that too. Right? The team building activity isn’t just for fun, it’s for… team building, which they hope will be fun because that’ll make it more effective. You might not see value in it – either because you don’t think it works, or you don’t think team building is important – but the company does. They’ve decided to expend resources on doing it because they believe it will benefit them.

    Even when companies do nice things, they don’t just do it to be nice. They do it because happy employees work well and stick around. My company recently laid on a buffet lunch to celebrate a milestone we hit. They wanted us to celebrate as a team and feel good about our achievement because then we’re more likely to work well together and hit those numbers again. And it’ll work, probably. Pizza is delicious, appreciation feels good. A bit of office camaraderie generally helps relationships. I wouldn’t expect to be able to go off all alone and eat out on the company’s dime as an alternative, because the group aspect was part of the point.

    1. knitted feet*

      As for covering – that’s probably one to pick up with your manager, but it depends a lot on what the work actually is. It makes at least some sense to me that if they have staff in the office, they might decide they want to prioritise X task over Y, even if Y is your normal focus. It wouldn’t be impossible to push back on, necessarily, but it’s really context-dependent. Is it completely different from your normal work? Is it genuinely higher priority? Are you expected to handle your work AND theirs, or is it just that you prefer your stuff?

      Either way, I don’t think framing the team building days as ‘goofing off’ – even if that’s just in the privacy of your own head – will help you make your case here.

    2. Landry*

      My problem with these types of activities is that they feel very fake. We’ve had a few of them at my company and it always feels like we’re putting lipstick on a pig. Maybe it’s fun in the moment, but I’ve never experienced long-term impacts that helped us with working together and communicating. Everyone just goes back to the same toxic patterns.

      1. Dawn*

        That sounds more like a problem with your workplace specifically though, and not with team-building activities in general.

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        I think that might be a problem with the activities and/or the people.

        But a lot of things we do are “fake” but we do it enough, or fake it till you make it and you make it real.

        I think it is partially that attitude you go into it with. If you are this sucks/team building is stupid, you probably won’t get much out of it. but if you go in with a genuine open mind you might get more out of it.

        One of my favorite quotes and things I try to live by is: “You only get out of it, what you put into it.”

        Sure dressing up in work appropriate clothes is fake, I would much rather wear shorts and a tshirt like I do at home. But I can focus on how much it sucks or try to be comfortable while wearing work appropriate clothes.

        Lots of casual chit chat are “fake” to a certain extent, do I really care/want to hear about coworkers weekends because it will make a huge impact to me, no. But I do care on a small basic level.

  51. Roland*

    “If I opt out of team-building activities, I still have to work on those days.”
    Keep your resumes and cover letters updated! That company might eventually ease you out the door, citing “not being a team player”.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      In addition, LW is potentially missing out on some contact time with higher-ups in the org. That also doesn’t help their chances with promotions, etc.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Yep. OP might not think that the activities are their idea of fun, but refusing to go definitely sends a message they may not realize they are sending. And refusing to go plus whining that they have to work while everyone else is “goofing off”? Definitely not leaving a positive impression.
      Team building activities are not how I would choose to spend my free time, either, but I understand that I need to make an effort to build pleasant and professional relationships with my coworkers, too, so I go to them with a positive attitude.

      1. Sandwiches*

        The company isn’t asking for people to spend their free time doing team-building activities. They’re giving them to option to do so on the clock. That’s a very different situation.

      2. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        If there’s any concern for OP about not being considered a team player, they can definitely 1) choose a few excursions that don’t make them barf and just go, and 2) be as much of a team player as they can in the office while also doing a good job on their own work. I know there are companies run by deluded cruise-director types who put a ton of stock in things like showing up for all the outside activities, but unless OP is at one of those, they can probably avoid a non team player tag mostly in other ways.

        1. Commenty*

          I can vouch for option 2 being effective! I’ve had people on my team who skip these events, and my boss has grumbled about it, but because they’re very collaborative, positive, and helpful to the people around them, it’s ultimately not seen as a big deal that they don’t show up for the teambuildng.

      3. Impending Heat Dome*

        I enjoy some team-building activities, but not others. For example, my department used to have an outing each year to a baseball game. I find baseball mind-numbingly boring, and I don’t want to sit outside getting sunburned and coming home with a headache. So I would always volunteer to hold down the fort, which was basically normal working hours, but quiet and with no interruptions. I always got my work done really fast, and could sit and enjoy my lunch and look at my phone, while keeping an eye out for any issues. It was awesome! Almost as good as a day off.

        I never got dinged for “not being a team player” though, I always got brownie points FOR being a team player because I was the coverage. Win/win. I would not have been nearly so positive about it if I had covered in good faith, and then still got penalized professionally for it.

        It’s all about the framing, though. There’s a big difference between saying, “Hey, baseball isn’t really my thing—how about I stay back and be available in case XYZ Team has any questions? That will keep things moving while our team is off-site,” and saying, “I really don’t like team-building, it feels fake and not a good use of my working hours.” You can think the latter in the privacy of your own mind, but that’s something you definitely should not actually SAY.

  52. LK*

    LW3, would your organization buy or reimburse for laptop bags to help ease the transition? Especially if your employees can choose the style that makes the most sense for their commute.

    Mine had some roles that only used desktops and some that only used laptops (we’ve since switched to all laptops). I walk to work and when I was promoted from a desktop role to a laptop role, I’d recently had surgery, and they paid for me to get a rolling laptop bag. Later, when it became clear a rolling bag didn’t work so well in Canadian winters (like dragging a tiny snowplow), they reimbursed me for buying a laptop backpack.

  53. Guy Incognito*

    Honestly it seems to me that number 3’s team’s concerns are… unserious. I’ve been carrying a laptop back and forth to work for close to twenty years and their “concerns” have come up exactly zero times. They shouldn’t be leaving the laptop at work; it should go home with them in case they have to WFH unexpectedly (that is the whole point of the laptop), and if they have a disability that makes that difficult then they should get accommodation, which I’m sure the org would provide. I have gone out to socialize after work with and without my laptop (and also that is a weak excuse– dropping stuff off at home first is usually my go to), and if it gets stolen or broken there are protocols to follow . Unless it was gross negligence on the employee’s part they shouldn’t even be help liable (my brother broke his screen– it was replaced). If the company decides to charge employees to replace them even if it was not their fault, yes, that would be an issue to bring up.

    A laptop policy that is pretty much the standard across the companies I’ve worked for in the past twenty years is not the hill anyone needs to be dying on and is a very silly policy to “disagree” with. I would suggest the team grow up.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I think if you worked in a big city and lived in a commuter belt town it would be next to impossible to drop the laptop at home before going out to socialise. It’s easy to say people should drive/not socialise near work/carry less stuff but what if the location and travel arrangements were the main reason you took the job? I’ve worked in situations where it would be beyond easy to take a laptop home, and others were it is nearly impossible. The problem is not that this is impossible for everyone everywhere but that this is a bit of a sea change for people who signed up to different arrangements. Possibly the company is okay with a lot of people getting upset or even leaving, but it’s reasonable when a big change is being made to ask what accommodations or exceptions can be made.

      1. Sandwiches*

        I think it’s highly unlikely people will leave over this because it’s highly unlikely they will find another employer that pays for two computers per person.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          That’s true, but they may change one perk for another, like an easier commute. If you can’t enjoy the social life near work any more, why travel in?

      2. Quinine..I need quinine*

        Other than someone with a physical limitation, what would make taking a laptop home nearly impossible? It’s so common that I feel like the impact of this change is way overstated.

        1. sb51*

          If you’re working in the city and taking public transit, the socialization is often going to be in the city. If I had to go home before going out after work downtown, I’d never go out after work. Heck, even when going to something in my fairly local suburb, I get off the train in town and go straight to the event rather than walk the 2/3 of a mile home, drop stuff off, walk back.

          And often public transit is synced to rush hour (including direction) — there’s a ton of trains/buses outbound after the workday, but not a lot in the other direction, so there might not BE one going back in at a reasonable time.

          This is the case people are annoyed about. (I still think they’re mostly being ridiculous to expect it to change, but I can understand being mildly annoyed.)

          Now, if more places had good, secure, cheap lockers in train stations etc like some countries do, that’d be nice, but I don’t expect to see them in the US any time soon. We’re too car-centric, and people who don’t transit/bike don’t realize which things are easy/natural with a car commute and a minor (or major) hassle without one.

          1. Quinine..I need quinine*

            Most people take their backpacks/laptops with them to the socializing in that scenario. I’ve been living and working in NYC/Boston for thirty years, taking public transportation and this has never been a problem.

        2. Sandwiches*

          I believe that Ellis Bell is saying that it would be impossible to drop off the laptop at home before socializing after work. If someone’s office is in Midtown Manhattan and they live on Long Island or in Brooklyn, if people want to go out after work to a bar near the office, it wouldn’t be feasible to drop the laptop at home before returning to socialize.

          Having said that, I don’t find carrying a laptop to put a damper on my ability to socialize after work at all. There is always some option. If the bar is close to the office, I leave the laptop at the office and stop by to pick it up before going home. If the bar is between the office and home or just out of the way, I bring the laptop with me in my bag and put it under my seat or next to me. If there’s a large group socializing, there’s often a table or bench informally designated as the “bag area” and a couple people will sit there and chat so the bags have someone keeping an eye on them. If the activity was really impossible to bring a laptop to, I’d just leave the laptop in the office and commit to coming in the next day.

          It’s, at most, a mild inconvenience to decide what to do with my laptop when making after-work plans, but most of the time I don’t even have to think about it. I know that I will put it under my seat at bars A, B, and C. I leave it in the office and pick it up if we’re going to bar D around the corner right after work. I plan to keep it in a locker if I’ve booked a workout class. The only time I think about it is if I’m going somewhere new. There are always people with backpacks if you’re out and about on a weeknight, so clearly it’s a figure-out-able thing.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            Pretty much this. It’s absolutely doable to take your laptop out and about with you, but I can see people new to the idea being nervous about looking after it without knowing how liable they are for it. Not everyone is in good enough health for commuter rucksacks either.

            1. Sandwiches*

              > Not everyone is in good enough health for commuter rucksacks either.

              Sure, but that’s not a good reason to provide two computers to 20,000 employees. People that have trouble with a backpack can purchase a roller bag or request another accommodation.

  54. Adventures in Grad School*

    LW4

    This actually comes up a lot where I work as we have lots of international students. I’ve found that talking to the writer is best. Some really prefer to fix it themselves so they get the practice – and one find your approach nitpicky. Others may want to streamline things and just have you fix it. No two people are exactly alike and may have different long term writing goals. Obviously work is different from school – but a quick conversation may ease you mind in terms of what to do.

  55. Mallory*

    Op#3…appreciate your concern for your staff , but those seem like minor conveniences that the vast majority of the working public with desk jobs have been dealing with for years at this point. I think it might be time to move on.

  56. DramaQ*

    We all have docking stations and it is understood if you want to work from home you take your laptop with you. In the case of potential bad weather an email goes out reminding everyone to take their laptops home with them if they don’t want to burn vacation.

    The only desk PCs we still have are out in the lab attached to the machines and even with those the only reason they are still on desk PCs is because nobody wants to pay thousands for new licenses just so we can upgrade to laptops.

    It can be a pain. I’ve left my computer at home and had to do the commute of shame to retrieve it but it’s not something worth raising a ruckus over.

  57. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #2 – I hate to say it but your current employer isn’t obligated to keep you. If they can afford it, they may keep you on for awhile to train the replacement but you need to be making your way out now that you forced their hand to hire someone else. For future reference, never tell your employer you’re actively looking for a new job. The time to share that you have intent to leave is when you have a firm plan. While you have an open relationship with your bosses, they have obligations to the company first and that may mean making the option to move on from you before you move on from them.

  58. Acl*

    We’re hybrid – 3 days in office, 2 days wfh. We worked out a schedule so there’s always predictable coverage in office. The schedule is flexible if someone needs to switch days, but yes, we have to carry the laptop or take a pto day if we’re stuck at home without it.

    Sure, the laptop adds a little bit of weight to my backpack, but the trade off to be able to wfh is worth it. Feeling a little off and think you might want to stay home? Take it with you. Weather report predicts a storm? Bring it home. Want to go out but not take it with you? Work in the office the next day.

    Adjust, carry the laptop if you have to, or risk losing the ability to work from home.

  59. Dr. QT*

    I also bring my laptop home everyday so that if the weather is bad or my kid is sick I can WFH and have a docking station at work. However, I am laughing at the idea that they can just get a 2lb laptop. No one in my organization (state university) gets to choose their laptop, you get handed one by IT when you start. I’m considered lucky because I got a Lenovo Thinkpad T490 that is 6 years old. It’s still about 3.5lbs. I can’t imagine that OP3’s employer is just going to start replacing functioning laptops.

    I think it’s fair to acknowledge that the employees are losing a nice perq they had, while also maintaining that this is a pretty standard set up and it’s not going to change. Probably the reason they still had desktops at work was because they still worked and it was wasteful to get rid of working computers when they gave everyone laptops.

    Probably they should try commuting with laptops for a couple weeks and then see if there are actual issues that come up and not just the potential for issues that they can think of. Many of them will probably realize it’s not as onerous as they anticipated, and any accomodations that need to be made for people can be based in their actual experience instead of a hypothetical.

  60. errrrr, really?*

    for the person whose team wants two computers. i feel ya, i really do. but as an IT person in an org with over 20,000 users, i understand why they dont want to provide multiple devices. it’s crazy expensive to double your computer purchases, and it’s a lot more work to manage and support double. there should be an exception process obviously, for people with handicaps, but it’s a lot cheaper to replace a few dozen broken laptops because someone wrecked their bike than purchase 2 for every person. In my org it’d cost over $15,000,000. that’s a tough pill to swallow because jeremy doesn’t like to carry his laptop back and forth.

      1. errrrr, really?*

        and that doesn’t count software licensing for management tools like antivirus or config mgmt or…. well you get the point.

  61. Bubbles*

    OP 1, if everyone attends the team building event, what happens? Is there another team who covers the work, or does nothing get done that day? You don’t specify the type of work you do and the additional tasks you have to cover if you don’t attend the events. How often do they occur, once a year, once a month? If you feel overwhelmed by having to cover for your coworker, speak to your manager to determine what needs to be handled that one day. Alternatively, have you ever been to any of these team building events and confirmed you don’t enjoy them?

    1. Landry*

      Not OP, but when my company has done these, we’re always told to set our email to out of office and let clients know in advance that we won’t be available on a certain day. I’ve seen other places close for the day if there is some kind of all-staff event or training happening. Most people are fine with it as long as there is enough advance notice.

  62. Database Queery*

    Too many comments to respond to each individually, but for those who dislike commuting with a laptop in hot weather because the backpack is sweaty, I cannot recommend Osprey suspended-frame backpacks highly enough! (Not a shill, just a fan.) The body of the backpack is suspended a few centimeters from your back so all that touches you is breathable mesh. I live in a very humid climate and switching to this style meant I no longer had to change my shirt and bra when I arrived at work.

    1. Another fan*

      I have such an Osprey with a separate laptop compartment and it is indeed the most comfortable backpack I ever owned. It distributes the weight reeeeally well.

  63. Hello???*

    It is really insane to me how many people are leaping to “OP #1 wants the day off if they’re not going on an excursion”, when OP #1 is saying “I don’t mind doing MY work when opting out, but why do I have to do someone else’s work as well as my own”, which I think is a reasonable question?

    1. mysterious and important*

      I think part of the problem is how the letter is titled (“I still have to work” vs “I have to do the work of two people”). But it does provide interesting data as to the % of commenters who actually read the content of the letters before commenting.

    2. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Nah, it’s not that. People are reacting the way they are because OP #1 is framing going on a team-building exercise as a fun NON-work activity, when in reality, it is.

      As someone above said, if these employees were given a choice between a team-building activity and a day off, no doubt the vast majority would choose the day off.

    3. umami*

      It sounds like the ‘doing other person’s work’ is more of a coverage thing because they are in the office. I don’t get the impression that their workload is doubling or that their own work is suffering. If they had gone on the excursion, 0% of their own work would get done, so I don’t think employer is saying, if you stay at work, you must do 100% of the work you normally do of
      your own but also take on these extra duties.

      1. CTT*

        It’s also the framing of this other person as someone “who always chooses to do the engagement activities.” That’s like saying you’re mad at someone for taking PTO. They’re out of the office pursuant to the terms their employer made available to everyone.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      You’ve hit the nail on the head; OP is more annoyed at doing something that’s not in their exact job description than not being able to get extra days off. However, I think OP is hyperfocused on their own work duties as being the only thing they want to do whilst at work. Yes, true, it’s the main thing you go to work for, but there’s a ton of additional stuff you have to do at work that can’t be filed under your job description. Helping out team mates, covering for people who are out, going to all staff meetings, and … team building exercises. OP may have a real point here if the team building and cover work are damaging their ability to do their main job role to a meaningful degree, but that’s not a point they make in their letter. It reads more like they believe these secondary responsibilities, like being part of a team and caring about the company’s wider mission have nothing to do them. I sympathise with that, sometimes this stuff feels very irrelevant, but OP is not on firm ground here. Either they take part in team building, or they cover for a team mate. Describing these things as so meaningless that they may as well stay home is more than a little clueless.

      1. Agree*

        “OP may have a real point here if the team building and cover work are damaging their ability to do their main job role to a meaningful degree, but that’s not a point they make in their letter. ”

        This right there. OP does not even mention how regular these activities happen or for how many hours, so this is clearly not the focus of their question. For example, if OP had to cover weekly for a full day for their colleague it is a very different situation than covering for 4 hours once a month.

  64. Emotional support cucumber*

    Just wondering, would your advice for #1 be different if the reason they weren’t attending the team building activity was because the activity wasn’t accessible to them due to a disability?

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      The advice would then be to point out to management that this is not an equitable situation and that they need to choose some activities that are accessible to disabled employees.

    2. A*

      Yes.

      This is changing the facts in a significant way. It’s like saying:

      Person A: Are you wearing a jacket today?
      Person B: Yeah, a lightweight coat because it’s in the 50’s.
      Person A: Would you change the jacked you are wearing if this conversation took place on Antartica?

    3. Hlao-roo*

      There are some previous posts that answer that question. These two are from the employee side:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/i-couldnt-participate-in-team-building-coworker-with-an-eating-disorder-and-more.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2021/03/my-office-loves-expensive-physically-demanding-team-building-activities.html

      And here’s a question from the manager side:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2023/10/my-employee-was-excluded-from-a-team-building-event-because-of-their-weight-how-do-i-make-this-right.html

      1. Emotional support cucumber*

        Thank you for these, I’ve read them all. It doesn’t quite answer my question. I was assuming (but didn’t specifically mention in my original comment) that the employee has already mentioned that the activity is exclusionary, and management is not receptive to changing the activity to include them.

        And yes, this would tend to point to larger issues at the workplace, but the wording of Alison’s response to your middle link was to see if *some* of the quarterly activities could be accessible, which means that some of them would continue to _not_ be accessible.

  65. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    #3 – a technical/financial detail you may not be privy to.

    End of life can mean technologically obsolete (though not so much an issue these days like it was 20+ years ago).

    But it can also mean “our 3-year lease of the equipment is over and we have to return it to the leasing company.” This is a very common way for large organizations to spread out IT capital expenses so they aren’t taking huge hits to the budget every X years.

    You might ask if your employer can exercise a buy-out for the residual value of the desktops on a case-by-case basis, but be prepared to hear “no”.

  66. HB*

    A team building day may be optional but it’s not a day off. Otherwise most people would just opt out and stay home.

    1. MassMatt*

      This. I thought the LW had a strange sense of entitlement. It’s not a day off, it’s different work. If you don’t want to do the different work you continue working in the office. And probably damage your reputation/relationships with your peers and manager.

  67. HB*

    Give notice exactly two weeks prior to your end date, job in hand. Three at the most. Absolutely never talk about your job search.

  68. GreenApplePie*

    Letter #4 is really baffling – I’m assuming these communications are being written on some digital platform like Word that has autocorrect or a spelling/grammar checker. Even IDEs have spellcheck these days. Are people going out of their way to ignore those suggestions?

    I’m saying this as the child of immigrants that barely speak English but can send clear emails/texts thanks to those tools. Granted, neither parent works in tech so maybe it’s an industry culture thing.

    1. Spreadsheet Queen*

      The OP mentioned “slides”, so I assume Powerpoint. You can’t do “track changes” in Powerpoint. You CAN do spellcheck, but you may have to go in settings to do the “wavy lines” things that shows you as you go. This won’t catch using the wrong word though (things like there/their/they’re, if/of), missing words, etc. Grammar check might.
      Some errors, you HAVE to send back, because some presentations, you’re pasting in images/snips from other reports (financial reports, excel, etc.) that aren’t just text.
      I HATE Powerpoint. Formatting is such a disaster. (I don’t use it much, so I don’t know all the tricks.)

  69. RagingADHD*

    #3, an inherent part of having a hybrid schedule is knowing where your laptop is. If you are in the office on set days, you move your laptop accordingly. Having the flexibility to stay home without notice means being prepared to do that.

    Very, very few companies issue 2 computers to each employee anymore. Especially large ones. That’s just an enormous amount of equipment!

    If someone is fit enough to cycle back and forth to work, they’re fit enough to put a 2-3 pound laptop in a backpack. And if they aren’t physically able to carry the laptop on their commute, they already have permission to stay home!

    You may join in your employee’s disgruntlement, but I assure you, you are the ones out of touch with working norms on this.

  70. Jo*

    #4 I think it depends on several factors, including your exact role. (Are you only reviewing the slides as a manager, or will you be giving the presentation?) The severity of the error…misspelling, misnaming, bad data is one thing; grammar preferences are different. Also, more importantly, will the slides be re-used…is there danger of the error being carried over to other presentations? And does the originator need to be made aware, educated of the changes?

    I was part of a cross-organizational committee that had a major conference each year. Slide decks, especially for the Welcome and the Business Update sessions were repurposed year to year. There were two big errors – one being a misspelling of the the organization’s name! – that would pop up again and again because the final COPY got correct, but then later slides would be re-used from an earlier version. I saw this exact mistake carried over for 10 years! Could not stamp it out. (It wasn’t possible at the time to have a single, shared file.)

  72. Dido*

    LW3 seems to be majorly overreacting. It’s very standard in every company I’ve worked for to have one laptop that you need to carry back and forth as necessary. Nobody has run into any of the catastrophic scenarios you cooked up. You get a laptop bag… college students everywhere have been carrying laptops to and from class for decades now… if they can do it, a full grown adult really doesn’t have an excuse.

    1. RagingADHD*

      My kids have been carrying school-issued Chromebooks back and forth to school every day since third grade. That was 2014.

      Never broken one (though a couple have worn out).

  73. whatchamacallit*

    I totally misread #3 as having to bring their PERSONAL laptops back and forth and the company was being cheap and just not providing any work computers.
    But if they’re just bringing their work-provided laptops back and forth? That’s super normal and how every job I had a company laptop for worked.

    1. Mad Scientist*

      LW2: the framing of this question is surprising. What are their “obligations” to you in this scenario? Likely none. Why would you tell them you want to leave before you had concrete plans?

  74. Librarian manager here*

    I was given a laptop when I arrived at my position ten years ago. I just left it at work secured in a locked drawer when I left as we were given a lecture about responsibility etc.
    There was a problem with the dock and IT came to deal with it. I said is there anything easier because I never take the laptop home.
    He was shocked as the expectation was that we commute with our computer.
    I said it was too heavy to travel with and they replaced it with an air.
    Maybe smaller lighter is the answer.

  75. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I honestly thought #3 was going to be that they were taking away the monitors and stuff too and people have a a hard time with the smaller screen. But it sounds like its just the laptop and having to commute with it. Which sounds silly to me. This is 100% normal and is not a big deal. I can understand the worry of it being damaged. But I wonder if the company could provide laptop bags for the employees who are afraid that the computers will break on their daily commute. The employees should be able to pick what type of bag they want, brief case, messenger bag, backpack, etc. It should be a good quality one, not something cheep. This is what my department did during covid and everyone got a laptop. This might ease their minds a bit and show that the company is trying to work with them.

  76. YesPhoebeWould*

    Goodness. #3 (the laptop and docking station) is extremely common, especially in large organizations. So common in fact that it would be considered best practice. It is certainly NOTHING to complain about.

    It is ridiculous to expect a company to spend millions of extra dollars because “people don’t want to carry a 3-lb laptop home”. Making that argument, in fact, would make me question one’s critical thinking skills as a manager.

    If it gets lost of broke, as long as the employee used reasonable safeguards, then it will be replaced. Again, this is extremely typical at large companies.

    This is a non-issue. I’m 100% for working to make employees happy when their requests are reasonable, but whining about having to carry a 3 lb laptop is totally unreasonable. The only correct answer here is “That’s policy. It is consistent with what almost everyone else does, and it is too expensive to do otherwise. Just take your laptop home, take care of it the same way you would it it was your own property, and get on with your work.”

  77. Just a Pile of Oranges*

    I had a computer and a laptop at my last job. I was very, very spoiled. Generally only upper management gets that privilege.

  78. appo*

    #1 – the truth of the matter is you can’t have it both ways. Obviously your company would like to have all employees there and they’re actually giving a generous out to those who don’t want to participate. I’m assuming the “covering” is dealing with ad hoc items that can’t wait until the next day (phone calls, urgent requests, etc). It’s pretty fair and if you don’t want to do that, then just go to the work events.

    #2 – you have to be so, so, SO sure that they won’t immediately start looking for a replacement if you mention leaving before you have an offer because really, why wouldn’t they? I hope you’re able to find a new job soon and in the future it’s better to keep your cards close to your chest

  79. Landry*

    Laptops only has been standard in my field and at both companies I’ve worked at for the past 15 years. People who work in the office either full-time or on a hybrid schedule can request accessories like an external keyboard and mouse, or a larger/second monitor. Docking stations are provided if you want one. I’ve never used one because it’s always been easier for me to just plug my laptop in, but a lot of my colleagues have them.

    This is not a new thing. LW’s company and team is behind the times.

  80. Peter the Bubblehead*

    Regarding Letter #3: Been working this job – with a laptop – for 17 years. While the Great Lockdown of 2020-21 was an exception, we don’t normally work from home but can be authorized by our manager when really bad weather is predicted.
    Never lost or misplaced my laptop, for which I have a carry bag in the office for the times is does need to come home. Never damaged my laptop.
    Only issue I have had was forgetting I had brought the computer home (this has happened three times, two of those following a weekend) and not realized it until I was either on my way in or had already reaached the office. Typically results in me going back home and WFH for the day.
    On other occasions, when the computer was in the office, I have forgotten to bring my 2-Factor Authentication key, which means I cannot even log in. On those occasions I generally wind up going back home and using sick time because I live an hour from work and don’t feel like spending four hours on the road in one work day.
    I have one co-worker who fools around a bit too much and as a result has “installed Java” (spilled full cups of coffee) onto his laptop three times at his office desk, resulting in needing a new computer each time. He has been told explicitely if it happens again he likely faces termination. This is the same co-worker who during various work trips has lost his wallet, his keys, and his government-issued work ID cards, but never his portable computer or work-related electronics.

  81. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

    #1 — you’re going to have to decide which bugs you more, the team-building activity or the coverage aspect of being in the office. If they’re really loading you up with others’ work and you’re falling behind on your own, particularly if you’ve got inflexible deadlines or external clients, definitely talk to your boss about that. But otherwise, it’s your choice which thing is less annoying; you’re not going to get a bonus vacation day.

    (As others have suggested above, trying to find at least one of these days where the activity doesn’t make you hurl would be to your advantage. Even if you think these tend to be a waste of time, as I do.)

    1. KateM*

      OP would equally fall behind on their work if they went to the team building event. So obviously their boss has to have planned for that.

  82. CommanderBanana*

    LW#2, this is a great reminder that the time to tell your boss you are leaving is when you are leaving,, as in, you have an offer letter in hand. Also, don’t expect a severance, since in effect, you turned in your notice.

    I remain baffled about why anyone would tell their boss they are leaving until they are actually leaving.*

    *I am sure there are very specific exceptions to this rule that commenters will pop up to talk about, but 99.9% of the time, do not tell your boss you’re leaving, or job hunting, or thinking of leaving, or allude in any way to leaving until you are actually leaving.

    1. Landry*

      I can think of a few specific situations where advance notice would be good — someone has a retirement planned, has been accepted to return to school, knows for certain they will be moving out of state or country. But in all of those cases, I would never say anything unless it was 1000 percent confirmed. It was also bizarre to me that LW would bring this up with the boss. If I was the boss, I’d take that to mean the employee was not going to be engaged or motivated. I wouldn’t be looking to assign them new work or long-term projects. I just don’t see any benefits to doing it before you are absolutely sure.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Yup. A colleague of mine blabbed her way out of her job by letting her boss know that she would be starting to look for a new job after graduating from a master’s program, so her boss hired a replacement. Surprise surprise, she didn’t find a new job, then tried to get severance, and the org’s HR was like uh, no, you told your boss you were leaving, your boss hired a replacement, gave you an end date, and 5 days before your last day you started trying to get a severance package by saying you didn’t officially resign.

        This all played out over six very infuriating months where she basically refused to accept that she was being replaced and ended up unemployed for over a year because a new job never materialized, she had no savings and is now crazy in debt, and while she’s finally employed it’s on a contract job with no benefits. And all this could have been avoided had she just kept her mouth shut. Fortunately the org didn’t contest her getting unemployment, but she way screwed herself.

  83. KayZee*

    In response to the laptop question – that’s what laptops are for! Portability.

    I bring mine home every Friday so I can work from home on Monday. If I’m out sick and my laptop is at work, so be it – I’m sick. I also live relatively close to work and can drive in and my co-worker will bring it out to me if there’s a reason I need it and am well enough to work.

    Many, many people go back and forth with theirs on a daily basis.

    Anyway, those who are livid need to get over it. We’re about to enter the second quarter of the 21st century – get with the times.

  84. Post Morbus*

    For #1 it may be helpful for OP to think of the options that are available as: a> go to the team building event; b> show you are a team player and hold down the fort.

    There clearly is no option to “just do your own work” on those days.

  85. Definitely not me*

    #3 – this is very normal. There’s probably a very good reason why the PCs are being end-of-life’d (e.g., they are incompatible with the newest Windows Server version… stuff like that). It’s not realistic to expect the IT department of a large company to pay for two licenses for the OS and to continue maintaining it beyond its expected life, just to appease people who don’t want to carry a laptop. There also might be a defined process by which those assets (the old PCs) are decommissioned and recycled, or donated, or whatever. Our organization was forced to buy laptops for people during Covid lockdown who already had PCs on their desks, but that was not the original, budgeted-for plan, just a necessity. Gradually we all got docking stations when our PCs exceeded their planned useful life.

    About 15 years ago I worked for one of the Big 4 accounting firms, and taking your laptop home every night was just the expectation, as was the strict company policy that said you’d never leave it unlocked or visible in your car’s backseat, etc. It was considered safer than leaving it on your desk, given that cleaning and maintenance people might be in the space in off hours. And that was well before Covid when the whole WFH thing became almost an entitlement, in some people’s minds. It’s not that unusual and being all apologetic about it isn’t doing your staff any favors.

  86. Happy all the time now*

    I was shocked — really shocked — that any business today is set up with desktops in the office, with a separate laptop at home. Unnecessary duplication of assets (and expenses).

    My career has marketing in technology companies, and I’ve been laptop only since 1996 — almost 30 years. Yes, it can be a pain lugging the laptop back and forth, but worth having easy access to info. Even when I’m planning to be in the office most of the week, I still take it back & forth and this past year, I (finally) replaced my work tote with a small rolling office bag. It’s really not that big a deal. And if it allows you to have continued WFH flexibly — let it go. It’s not the norm, at least in the past 4 companies I’ve been with — all large global entities.

  87. Teej*

    In addition to what others have stated on #3 – the older computer is a massive security risk – as vendors have been quite aggressive in depreciating older system’s support, especially Apple with Macs – anyone with an Intel Macs are at a much higher security risk these days compared to those on Apple Silicons.

    It’s worse when you’re dealing with BYOD policy – which is why many companies are moving away from it. Even requiring endpoint protection software to be installed is still insufficient for those devices.

  88. Eve Polastri*

    I have been bike commuting for 25 years and have had no problem carrying a work laptop back and forth. But there was a period of time that the company issued laptop was a beast. It may as well have been a desktop. I was able to work with our I.S department to find one that was light enough to fit in my backpack.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Yeah, Exjob gave us tiny laptops that were easy to carry regardless of your form of transport. I had a similar one (same brand) as a personal backup, and they were so light I could carry both. My current work laptop is huge and weighs a ton, and I hate it, but I can’t leave it because my commute is now an hour and we have a clean desk policy.

      If the laptops at OP’s workplace are big, maybe the company can switch them out for smaller ones as they replace those. That might help.

      1. Jess*

        And supply lockers. But doesn’t over come issue of someone being prevented from commuting in the following day eg tree fallen over the train tracks stopping trains!

  89. Elizabeth West*

    #4 — Track Changes are the way to go. I don’t edit technical content, but I do edit spelling or punctuation errors (ex. — a German employee who capitalized the occasional noun in her written English content). I just fix whatever but with Track Changes on so everyone can see it.

    If it’s a matter of incomplete sentences, rewriting content, etc., or the document is a PDF that I can’t use Track Changes in, I send them an email and ask if they can rewrite X or Y and resubmit.

  90. Jess*

    LW#3 we have that at my workplace too, having docking stations for laptops, which can be problematic with dragging laptops to and from the office. It’s particularly difficult for those with mobility problems or needing to travel over several forms of transport as our office is in a part of the metropolitan area that is different to the CBD.
    We were able to get lockers that laptops could be stored insite. We also were able to download Citrix on our personal home PCs.
    Unfortunately Citrix is being retired and there is no web based log on for file and document management programs like trim, work drives etc which takes that option away from staff.
    With staff with a mobility issue could the company supply them with an additional laptop for home.
    It’s also worth putting scenarios such as what happened if the staff member loses/has it stolen/it gets damaged on their commute.
    But I can understand the reluctance to push back to keep your hybrid conditions!

Comments are closed.