update: I manage a terrible slob — how can I convince her upset coworker that I’m handling it?

by Alison Green on April 16, 2025

Remember the letter-writer who manages a terrible slob and asked how to convince her upset coworker that it’s being handled? Here’s the update.

I actually have an update to this situation right now! I appreciated so much of the advice in the comments, as well as yours. I didn’t get much into everything I had done with Sally since my question was really about Susie, but it really did sound like I was blowing off Susie without that additional context!

Susie and Sally have separate offices with doors on a large campus. Most of Susie’s work happens on her computer, except for an occasional client meeting (once a week or so, which are not random and always scheduled in advance). Susie’s office is pristine. She has been offered the chance to switch offices to be away from Sally, and we are all permitted to work from home up to three times a week. Susie has refused both options. The nature of Sally’s work is only possible at that office so she is unable to transfer (the tools she needs are only available there).

I do work from their office at minimum two times a week to keep an eye on the situation. Truly, I do not understand how the mess grows so large so quickly … it’s impressive and baffling. We work in a creative field, so this isn’t just typical paperwork and office supplies, but paints, tools, etc. I supervise a team of seven, and much of my direct responsibilities need to happen in my office. Between managing the other five people on the team and my own projects, babysitting the mess with Sally is adding quite a bit to my workload. And yes, per my boss, I do drop what I am doing to drive to the other office to clean if needed. The messes are frequent, but I want to make it clear that Susie will still call me crying over a mess that has already been cleaned. The mess could occur and be cleaned up on a Monday, and Susie is still calling me crying about it on a Friday.

Along with a load of coaching, feedback, and less formal conversations, Sally has also been written up three times and is now on a PIP. This is the process in my company. My hands were tied by HR, who for some reason have a soft spot for Sally. I am a middle manager and had to go through my supervisor and HR — I don’t actually have the authority to fire anyone. The process was in place, I just had no idea how to professionally convey this information to Susie.

I also want to add, Susie is continuously exceeding her goals and has been given a raise recently. Other than her mess, Sally also produces excellent work.

Susie and Sally are actually quite good friends and hang out a lot outside of work. Susie recently had a baby and Sally threw a shower. I think that plays into this — Susie is not being completely honest with Sally on how this makes her feel, while also feeling obligated as a friend to help. I’m honestly surprised Sally never shared about the write-ups with Susie because they do seem to discuss everything.

Anyway, for the update! Per our company’s policy, Sally was placed on the PIP, which she responded to well. She knew it was coming and has, so far, appreciated the clear direction. Unfortunately, she is dealing with a mental health crisis at the moment, and the problem with the messes really increased after a traumatic event in her life this winter. She is working with a doctor to address this issue at home with her family too, and is going to be looking into some extended time off. We’re working with our HR department to put some formal accommodations in place. She does produce excellent work and is a client favorite. I always wanted to see her succeed!

As for Susie, she did actually catch on that my boss and I were actively addressing the situation with Sally because another coworker pointed it out (“don’t you notice that she has twice as many meetings with Sally as anyone else, and she comes out here multiple times a week, and continuously has HR check-ins on her calendar?”) I’m a little grateful that other team member pointed out what I was trying to allude to.

Now that Sally has been more up-front about her personal situation, Susie has apologized to both Sally and I for responding with such anger. She and I have developed a system where she sends me a message on Teams that says “please come to our office today” if a mess needs to be addressed. She, thankfully, is starting to stop cleaning up after Sally and letting me know before it gets too bad so I can assist Sally with getting it cleaned up herself.

Another great update — my boss voiced to me that she made a mistake by not escalating this to HR faster, and she has made a plan to spend more time at Sally’s office to help her address the ongoing mess.

I appreciate the advice from you and read your site often! Thank you for what you do!

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  1. Hlao-roo*

    Thank you for such a speedy update with these additional details! I hope this situation is able to resolve well for Susie, Sally, and for you!

  2. my cat is prettier than me*

    This is a good update, but I still find this whole situation baffling.

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      I really do want to know how the mess gets crazy so fast. My only thought is that Sally is literally bringing things in to create the chaos, possibly from home.

      1. Rogue Slime Mold*

        I suspect it’s some sort of mental block that starts as “Not noticing the individual mess item, like a used coffee cup, or filing it as easy to address as soon as I finish this other thing” and then at some point switches to “There’s so much, I don’t know where I would begin.”

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          The creative part with messy supplies helps I guess – you could run from project to project without cleaning up until suddenly there are half-done projects everywhere and spills and things.

          1. Nicki Name*

            Yeah, it could be getting all the supplies for one project out, not putting them away, getting out all the supplies for the next project, etc. If multiple projects are being touched and not completed each day I could see how the mess seems to grow exponentially.

            1. Freya*

              That’s one of the reasons I have a whole bunch of shallow clear plastic tubs – I can use one for each project and all the supplies stay in the tub unless I’m actively using them. When I stand up to do something else the lid goes on (as much as anything because I have a dog) and then if I need to clean up quickly it’s a matter of stacking plastic tubs in a corner out of the way.

              1. xylocopa*

                ……you know what, that’s a really good idea. I suffer from multi-project mess. Bins won’t fix the baseline ADHD but they’ll contain the madness.

                1. Mgguy*

                  I’ve sort of been doing it, although my tubs are often things under repair, parts for specific supplies, etc.

                  I’m not always BEST about sticking to it, but when I do it makes finding that one particular thing I need easy, or picking up that project where I left it off.

                  Plus, a never-ending problem for me is that when I take something apart, far too often I’ll use whatever random dish for the screws or other fasteners. The tubs give me a place to put all of those, although sometimes that’s supplemented by small ziplock bags, etc, to separate what needs to be separated.

                  There was a period in my life where I was pretty seriously into watch repair, and I still tinker in it some. Apparently enough watchmakers have this issue that at least in the past there were containers available just for watches taken apart(granted even a working shop it can be waiting for repairs, etc). They’re about 3″ in diameter, have one large round compartment to put the big parts of the movement, then several smaller compartments to separate various parts. The whole thing is about an inch tall, so they stack nicely and don’t take up much space. I still buy those whenever I find them. I have some ancient wooden trays with the same general idea, but with bell jars that fit over them(to keep dust off). They don’t stack as nicely, but a shelf full of them looks almost like something you’d see in a museum and not some attempt to bring order to your chaos.

          2. Quill*

            Paint in places no paint should be
            Things Drying that become part of the office architecture
            a surprising amount of dust

            Coffee cup containing… maybe coffee? maybe brush cleaning water?

          4. Zelda*

            Hey! Quit peeking into my craft room! I’m going to finish knitting all those things real soon, I swear. As soon as I have the energy to untangle that yarn, honest.

            1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

              the yarn under the pile of leggo’s behind the half-finished wreath for last christmas? :)

              or in my case, the half-assembled ikea items.

            2. Tiny Soprano*

              Yeah my sewing lair only takes one project to get that bad, and then six months to clean >.<

              1. TeaCoziesRUs*

                Or the stash explosion that is Joann’s going out of business…

                Why, no, I haven’t spent my next two years budget there in the last two months. Why do you ask?

            3. MigraineMonth*

              Yarn-collecting is an underappreciated hobby. What do you mean, what am I going to *use it* for, it’s a collection occasionally displayed as half-finished socks or sweater sleeves.

              1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

                My mum knitted and sewed (wish she was still doing it for me, she was great), and she kept every bit that could have a future use. Very often, w herself + 3 girls to dress, the bits got used. the bits of yarn tied up a lot of braids and ponytails.

          5. Academic Physics*

            I work in a tool-heavy job and I could see myself or a student making a mess that would take days to clean within ~5 hours. It’s much harder to clean up after yourself if you are working with a lot of tools than to make the mess in the first place.

          6. Sweet 'N Low*

            As someone who does a lot of creative projects (sewing and painting are the ones that comes to mind with this), I can totally see how a very disorganized person can turn a room into a disaster in no time flat. If you’re doing a project that involves a lot of supplies and a lot of moving parts and you don’t clean up as you go, you immediately end up working in a pile of chaos with bits of project here and there, scraps and trash on the floor, maybe some open bottles of paint in precarious positions, the coffee mug you lost under the felt, etc. If you then also don’t clean up after you’re done and do the same thing the next day… RIP.

            1. AnotherOne*

              as a crafty person, finding an organizational system that i could maintain was an artform in and of itself. (and i get very ‘the yarn goes here or here. no it can’t go anywhere else. that’s its home. it has to go in it’s home or chaos happens.’)

          1. LizardOfOz*

            Hah, yeah, me too. It ebbs and flows with my mood and mental health (at least if there’s nothing specific forcing me to clean like the water heater checkup, for example). The better I’m doing, the easier it is to keep to a somewhat presentable state.

        3. Jennifleur*

          As someone with executive function difficulties, yes that’s exactly how it happens for me anyway!! Then even acknowledging the mess becomes a source of anxiety.

          1. TeaCoziesRUs*

            YUP. Clutter blindness is REAL. I have either a clean surface or clutter overflowing a flat surface. There’s really no in-between.

        4. Nightengale*

          I posted this on the initial thread that I am like this (only without added mold) and it is a combination of executive dysfunction, poor visual processing and high mess tolerance.

          I take a book down off the shelf to show someone and then I put it on the nearest surface rather than reshelving it
          And then someone hands me a pile of papers that I have to go through later so they go on a surface
          And then there’s another book
          And these papers need to be signed but oops I need more information before I sign this one
          And these will need to be scanned in
          And these items are in the way so I guess I’ll just put them here temporarily

          And suddenly there are 4 books and 3 stacks of papers and a bunch of other items spread across the surface

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This is probably how it’s happening with Sally. Add in dealing with a difficult personal situation, and you have a perfect storm of mess.

            Anyway, I’m glad the OP has found a way to work with everybody to address the problem. And hopefully Sally will have an easier time of it going forward, which might help with the messiness.

          2. Jane*

            I am like this too. I also have a lot of stuff just stored in my office – it’s not only “my office but THE office for my little “department.” We have tons of volunteers, random ppl, etc in the space on a daily basis so anything we don’t want to disappear, all records, anything that needs to be secure, anything high value gets stored in there. I’m incredibly busy almost the whole time I’m at work so I basically just go thru cycles of accumulating mess/organizing and relocating. Of course my house is the same way but worse!!

        5. Tiger Snake*

          The mention of a mental health crisis feels like a buried lede – executive dysfunction stopping her from picking up after herself in even little ways, or top of everything else, maybe?

        6. Twinklefae*

          It’s the creative part of the job – I do several hobbies and have a small home. It’s absolutely astonishing how fast the mess can build up when you have bits of thread, scraps of fabric, and ironing board, plugs to a few machines, the lid to something…. and that’s sewing. Add in paint or something like it that needs to be scrubbed and can dry and get crusty and you have a massive mess in a very very short amount of time.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, I was trying to figure out how she was creating such huge messes at the drop of a hat. Like, what was she eating for lunch that would take hours to clean up?

            But if she has access to paint and brushes, it suddenly makes sense.

      2. Beth*

        With this being a creative job that deals with physical art supplies and tools, it makes a lot more sense to me. If Sally is jumping from project to project, it’s really easy to see how she might end the day with 3 or 4 half-done projects and all of their associated supplies scattered around the office. Add some spills, crusty dried paint brushes, sawdust, and other mess to the picture, and it could easily get overwhelming.

        I still don’t understand how this ended up with mold (in OP’s first letter), but maybe that was before OP started monitoring things and cleaning up regularly.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Maybe unemptied coffee cups/paintbrush rinse cups plus half-finished breakfast or lunch or snacks that got pushed aside or hidden in a moment of distraction and just kind of piled up. If hoarding/ADHD/shame/depression is involved it could get ignored for long enough until Susie explodes.

        2. xylocopa*

          Yes, once OP said there were things like paint and tools involved, it was a lot clearer. Yes, it’s very possible (and desirable) to keep art supplies and tools well-organized, but it’s amazing how quickly things like that can get spread around. I share a workplace with someone teaching art to kids and people who sometimes bring work-related repair/building projects over, and…..yeah. Tools. Paint supplies. They expand.

          (I should add that I’m extremely untidy myself, but my work mostly involves books and papers, which are a lot quicker to put in some kind of order.)

        3. Tio*

          I paint, and if I leave my wet palette unattended for too long it can begin to get moldy (wet palettes are designed to hold paint for longer periods of time) (tip: Put some copper pennies in it if you’re going to be leaving it, it reduces mold occurring)

        1. TerrorCotta*

          I would cross-stitch this on a pillow, but I would have to put all my soap making equipment away first and I can’t do that until I —

          1. TeaCoziesRUs*

            Clear the resin out of the mold I want to use… which means I need to find the French word I was going to mount the charms on. Oh! I never did unpack that bag of jewelry stuff from Joann’s! Well, look at that yarn…. is it already in my Ravelry stash?

      4. sparkle emoji*

        If Sally did have hoarding tendencies, bringing things from home wouldn’t be entirely shocking. That’d also explain how the moldy food from the first letter appears even with LW’s frequent cleaning.

      5. Samwise*

        Really?

        My office is cluttered and it can get worse fast.

        I drop my coat, briefcase, purse/backback, keys, hat, etc on the sofa.

        I work on a project that requires physically sorting and arranging stacks of paper (desk and chair and sofa — at this point I clear the sofa — possibly even the floor if I need the room, no there is not a table anywhere in the office where I can spread out)

        I have papers on my desk for grading or for typing up or for following up.

        I have papers on my desk for projects coming up.

        If I have a project that requires art supplies, those are likely on my desk

        I have pictures, cards, tchotchkes, plants

        Yes, I use google drive and other online resources — not everything can be done online

        Yes I use file cabinets and a file tote. Stuff has to come out of those receptacles to be worked on.

        Don’t tell me to put away everything from one project before starting another. That is not how my brain works best. I produce work at an exceptionally high level and I produce it faster than most people in the same/similar job. Lockstep work and pristine surfaces will slow me down, make me less creative and inspired, and make me grumpy.

        Now, I don’t let my clutter out of my office. That’s really the issue re Sally, I think. She wants/needs to live in chaos? Fine, keep it in your own office.

        1. A*

          “Don’t tell me to put away everything from one project before starting another. That is not how my brain works best.”

          If Sally contained this to only her office with her door closed then her brain is the only one that matters. That’s not the situation, though. As it stands, Sally’s mess encroaches on common areas. When that happens then Sally cannot say “don’t tell me” or “my brain works best” because common areas means more than one brain matters.

          1. Fluffy Fish*

            Samwise literally said that in their last statement. They aren’t giving Sally a pass at all.

        2. Dinwar*

          “Don’t tell me to put away everything from one project before starting another. That is not how my brain works best.”

          There’s also the issue that in a lot of jobs stuff used for one project is used for others. I used to have maps in my office with random information on them because that information was useful on like a dozen projects. I cannot tell you how many times we were at a map talking about one project and realized that three other projects would be impacted by literally anything we did. I know chemists who keep certain tables (hold times, EPA PRGs, and the like) on their desk because it’s applicable to all their projects. Just today I took a template from one project and pulled it into another project because it was more efficient to use an existing template than to generate a new one. And this stuff can build up fast. The idea that you CAN put stuff away when you move from one project to another is simply not possible in many industries.

          I’ve got entire binders of paperwork that are organized geographically because trying to organize them by project created a logistical nightmare that we’re still trying to fix three years later!

          I also have cups. One for coffee, and one for water–because I try to drink more water (it’s a work in progress) and I don’t want it tasting like weak, stale coffee. Add to that my coasters (to keep my desk from getting stained), and those take up a bit of desk room.

        3. Jane*

          I have almost EXACTLY the same thing going on logistically. I’m glad there are so many of us haha. Personally my work isn’t creative and I actually feel like I work best when things are orderly and minimalist! But there just isn’t time to put everything away and most of the stuff is best if it just stays out until it finally gets dealt with, otherwise nothing will ever be done with it.

      6. PlainJane*

        “I really do want to know how the mess gets crazy so fast.”

        As a person with a chronic mess, here’s how it happens:

        You create a system. It’s a beautiful system, with drawers labeled and everything in its place. This lasts while everything is normal.

        Then you get a big project with a lot of moving pieces. You’re working hard on it and then, boom, you have to be somewhere else and you’ve gone time-blind again. Oops. You stack it up as well as you can, but it turns out, the system you created didn’t have a space for “half-dried piñata, coil of rope, and three custom jigsaw puzzles).” You look around and put it in an empty space (after all, your office is clean, and there *are* empty spaces). Only you need to duck in between other tasks, and it turns out that you put them down right on top of something else you need, and you only have a minute, so you move it over, but everything slides off the top, and makes a mess of where you kept the other thing, and since you only have a minute, you just dig for it and shove things around. While you’re out of the office, you have this other project, that now needs to be finished in an office hour, and you have to make a space to work on it, and of course, everything spills again.

        Lather, rinse, repeat. It takes maybe two days to go from pristine to ridiculous. This is often because there isn’t a good workspace for creative projects. For myself, I was building an escape room with a ton of props, and my space neatly labeled for “upcoming projects” was half a bookshelf. And there’s no other good storage area. Next thing you know, you’re doing parkour to get to the desk.

        1. PlainJane*

          And no, no excuse. The “time-blind” thing is what kills me every time, and I know it, and I don’t make enough arrangements to accommodate it. I mean to. But I don’t, and when I look at the mess, often, the only thing I can see is, “But I’m in the middle of this, so I can’t put it three rooms away, and there’s no room where I want to keep it, and there’s just too much to clean up!”

        2. Tea Monk*

          I’m glad someone else has this problem. People will be like clean as you go but my brain is always someplace else. ( this affects me at home where I have my own desk and not at the office where I have to pick everything up when I leave)

          1. Elizabeth West*

            My desk at the office barely has anything on it. There are no papers because my job is entirely paperless. My desk at home has no drawers or cabinet and so it looks very much like a drawer and cabinet exploded, lol.

          2. allathian*

            I don’t have a desk at the office because we hotdesk and have a strict clean desk policy.

            At home my desk is a mess. Nothing that would get moldy (no food, dirty dishes, etc.), no paper except a notebook or two because we’re paperless, just clutter. I can’t even blame executive dysfunction, in my case it truly is just laziness and a fabulous ability to ignore stuff in front of me that I can’t be bothered to deal with.

            1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

              Hotdesking, while it sounds like a nightmare, is probably the only thing that could get me to pay attention to the cleanliness of my workspace. Not wanting to be “that gross person” would be the motivator.

              1. StephChi*

                When I was in the corporate world and had my own desk, it was a mess with papers everywhere. I generally knew where everything was, but it looked like someone came into my office or cube, threw everything in the air, and let it settle wherever.

                I’ve been a teacher for the past 20 year in a school where no one has their own classroom. I share mine with two others, so I work hard to ensure that I don’t leave any papers on the desk when I leave the room. I’m lucky in that it’s the only room I’m in, so my filing cabinet and bookcase are in there, but I do have to share the desk. I’ve gotten a lot better at filing hard copies of assignments because I have to.

                My desk at home, on the other hand, is pretty bad. I really need to take some time to do some filing and tossing there.

        3. Nightengale*

          for some neurodivergent people the “dopamine” boost of a beautiful new system or project lasts about 6 weeks. And then chaos descends.

            1. goth associate*

              Right, like I’m lucky if I get a few days out of it before I’m back to “system is buried under things that did not fit into the system, so now cannot be used”

      7. Justme, The OG*

        Mental health crisis, which Sally talks about having. I know when my mental health is bad then my living quarters are almost to hoarder levels.

        1. Clearance Issues*

          My boyfriend just helped me clean out my mental health crisis/stress response hoard (he sat with me while I went through everything), and it prompted me to organize my cubicle… I know the worse I’m doing by how much the mess spreads, so I bet Sally is mortified on top of everything else. I really hope she gets the extended leave approved!

          2. TeaCoziesRUs*

            I’ve had my best friend keep me company so I could deal with my Pit of Despair (sadly, no Westley included). This was a decade before I heard of body-doubling, but man it worked! For a solid few months!!

        2. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, I’m pretty minimalist when I’m in a good headspace, but the more anxious or depressed I am the more I acquire and keep stuff.

          The run on toilet paper, hand sanitizer, masks, food staples and such in 2020 turned me into my Great Depression-raised grandfather. “No, we can’t throw away that weird plastic handle from the bag of oranges, what if it ends up being useful in the next version of sew-your-own plague mask??”

      8. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I dunno, sometimes it just happens. If I knew, I’d do something to stop it.
        Signed,
        Another slob, who’s doing her best.

      9. Grandma*

        Example from my home today. I’ve been meaning to make some cooling scarves with polymer granules and today was the day. The sewing machine is open in my bedroom. The fabric and ironing board and the granules are another bedroom. The cutting mat, chosen fabric, rotary cutter, ruler, and a box of pins is on the island in the kitchen along with a selection of indoor plants a neighbor who is moving brought over this morning. The partly finished scarf is soaking in the sink (I need to see how much room a 1/4 tsp of granules swells to before I finish the other two pockets). I need to take the wet scarf out to the clothes line to let it dry before I can finish this scarf. IOW, I have stuff scattered from one end of the house to the other and have had all day. Good news: it will all be neatly set aside before dinner. It’s the putting it aside/away part that confounds Sally and drives Susie over the edge. The mess is so easy to make!

    2. Hell in a Handbasket*

      Me too! Especially the part where the boss has to drop what she’s doing, DRIVE to a different office, and clean up one of her employee’s mess for her! That would never have flown anyplace I’ve ever worked.

    3. ReallyBadPerson*

      Hoarding disorder explains this very well. A father and son in my community lost their home to a fire caused by their hoarding. Within 3 days, the hotel room where they were placed after the fire looked as if a family had been living there for weeks. It’s a mental illness. Logic can’t explain it.

      2. Jen with one n*

        If I’m remembering some of the reading I’ve done on the topic, major life events — like a fire — can also trigger hoarding, so I’m not surprised the hotel room got so bad so fast. I hope they got some mental health support.

      3. Citymouse*

        I had an aunt with mental health issues and hoarding and it was extraordinarily bad. I understand but the level it can be is maybe worse than people are imagining. I’m sympathetic but it’s definitely not something you can expect coworkers to deal woth.

      4. Aggretsuko*

        I come from hoarders and I can’t explain it. I haven’t quite gotten to the point of not being able to throw away anything, but that day will come.

        Nobody knows how to cure or even treat it, either.

      5. Jane*

        I feel like there’s a huge difference between hoarding disorder and just being messy – even REALLY messy.

    4. StressedButOkay*

      The addition of the fact it’s not just paper but art supplies like paint and tools helped me understand some of it. It sounds like she does various projects and then just – leaves all the things she used to do the projects everywhere.

    5. Shieldmaiden792*

      I’m especially baffled at the part about Susie calling in tears over a situation that has already been dealt with!

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        I wonder if maybe it’s because it’s her friend as well as coworker? Maybe she’s mostly stressed about the effects of the friend’s mental health challenges and doesn’t know how to respond.

      2. Hapax Legomenon*

        If Susie is a person who thrives in structure/organisation and has a baby making home life completely disorganised on top of the stress that babies create by being babies, she might be a little extra upset about someone else making messes at work. She might also be a stretched thin from young-baby parenting and supporting her coworker-friend through their own stressful situation while simultaneously being frustrated by her coworker-friend’s constant nightmare messes, so that what bubbles up on Friday is about feeling stressed by many things, but she can only ask her boss for help on her strictly-work problem.

        1. Arrietty*

          Yes, I thought exactly this – if she’s literally just had a baby like in the last six months, her hormones are all over the place and she’s not getting enough sleep. Reading that made the whole thing make more sense to me.

          1. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

            I attributed it to the constant stress of a moldy workplace, but I think this might be the more important part.

        2. Harriet Vane*

          This! Sounds like there’s something (anxiety-related?) going on with Susie as well. It is not normal to be calling your boss in tears on Friday about a mess that someone else – whom you’re a close friend of!! – made on Monday and which has been cleaned up!

      3. Heinous Eli*

        Some of us naturally and uncontrollably tear up when overwhelmed/frustrated. I am learning from comments like this that some of you seem to be able to control your tears at will, but it’s not a conscious, active choice for me, and I am not the only one.

        1. Festively Dressed Earl*

          Tears, yes. But Susie does have control over picking up the phone and calling her boss about something that happened days ago.

    6. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      The part that really baffles me is that Susie and Sally are friends outside of work. Sally’s messes drive Susie up a wall, and if I were Sally, I’d have a hard time being friends with someone who was constantly snitching on me. I’m more sympathetic to Sally in this situation.

      1. JustCuz*

        Yeeeaaaaahhhh Susie strikes me more as someone who struggles with setting boundaries and being upfront with people – calling OP days after an incident IN TEARS. That is about as ridiculous as Sally’s executive dysfunctional mess. And TBH, it sounds like Sally is really needed there and Susie has plenty of ways out of the situation herself and just chooses to not? Why? And then explodes behind the back of a person she considers a close friend? Again, why? It sounds like these two just need their own spaces, and everyone needs to a little more about executive dysfunction and accommodations.

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Yeah, they seem like a good example of people who can either be coworkers or out of work friends, but they shouldn’t be work friends.

    7. Goldenrod*

      Came here to say this! I am glad for the positive update…but I still have trouble understanding how Sally manages to create SUCH a big mess SO VERY quickly and often. To my mind, it’s shouldn’t be that hard to just not…to that. In an office.

      1. WhaleINever*

        I think, based on this update, it might be more helpful to think of this as a studio or workshop space than a typical office—one with a common space and then private, smaller workshops/studios along the walls, maybe. Creative spaces that involve a lot of hands-on work do tend to involve more tools and supplies than office, and people who do largely creative work are prone to getting tunnel vision. Making a mess can still be a problem for Sally’s coworkers, but it does make a lot more sense to me knowing that Sally’s work is closer to making art than doing accountancy.

    9. Limm*

      I’m always intrigued when the update portrays a scenario that is the complete opposite of the scenario portrayed in the original letter.

      I’d love Susie and Sally’s perspectives, as I feel they would both tell versions very different from LW’s version.

    10. Dogmomma*

      and now of course there’s another crisis with Sally, so that the behavior is excused…again . this is exhausting and I don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon. Nobody should have to work in a pig sty unless you are working with actual pigs .

  3. juliebulie*

    Thank you for the update! I’m impressed that Susie and Sally can somehow be friends in spite of everything.

  4. Ellis Bell*

    These details on this update make everything make so much more sense to me. The friendship between the two employees, and the fact that this is a creative field with messier tools.

    1. Rogue Slime Mold*

      Yes, the friendship really puts it in a different light. Where OP is designated at the ventee for problems Susie doesn’t want to raise directly because of the friendship.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      the baby too!!
      Kinda wild how just a few details paint both participants in much better light

      1. With a baby*

        Yes!! Having just had a baby, that detail made a lot about Susie’s very emotional reaction and inability to let go make more sense. Hormones, man…

    3. GreenApplePie*

      Susie’s refusal to work in a different space makes sense now, knowing that she probably has art materials/equipment in there and wouldn’t want to change that setup

    4. Limm*

      Yeah but the original letter was about mouldy food being everywhere. And the update doesn’t mention mould or rotten food, and implies the mess is necessary art materials which is completely different from rotting food!

      I wonder which version is true.

  5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    While it is up to Sally to manage her mental health in a way that has minimal impact on her coworkers, Susie also has an obligation to manage her emotions in a professional way.

    If the mess bothers her so much, but she still wants to be friends with Sally, changing offices or working from home more often is the perfect solution. But apparently Susie wants the boss to wave a magic wand to make Sally not be messy. It’s not going to happen. Susie needs to manage her expectations and also take advantage of her options. Just like Sally has with getting help through therapy and seeking accomodation.

    1. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

      Yeah, I don’t love Susie’s behavior. While it sounds like the messes are pretty bad, the idea that a mess that happened and was cleaned up on a Monday would cause Susie to call the OP crying on the following Friday suggests some very poor emotional self regulation at best. And her whole thing about refusing options offered to her that would mean she would be less exposed to the mess. If you refuse to escape a problem when escape is offered, my sympathy for your subsequent complaints and wailing is significantly reduced, even if the problem itself is a real one that needs to be dealt with.

      Sure, yes, it sounds like its been going on for a couple of months, but even that doesn’t justify this level of intensity of response.

      I also question how real the apparent friendship between Susie and Sally is. Susie doesn’t sound like a friend. But maybe she’s got undisclosed mental health issues going on too.

        1. Andromeda Carr*

          Susie gets stressed out about the cumulative overload of the situation and that it’s being caused by a friend whom she doesn’t want to tell off due to that friendship, so she cries. Don’t you see that crying makes Susie the worst employee ever? Sally would be justified in putting a rotting raccoon in the middle of the office because Susie cries.

          1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            No one said Sally’s behavior is not a problem. But Susie also has a responsibility to act like a professional – regardless of whether other employees are or are not.

            Susie’s handling of the situation actually made it harder for OP to focus on handling Sally because Susie had to be managed as well.

          2. JustCuz*

            Yeah, you know what? You are right. So rational to be calling DAYS after an incident has been rectified crying your eyes out. Totally normal, rational, not ridiculous behavior at all.

            This is for anyone on here who needs to hear it: NO ONE IS MAKING MESSES AT YOU. There. I hope that makes you *feel* better. Jesus.

            1. A*

              Impact over intention.

              It does not matter that Sally is not making mess at the rest of the office. What matters is that this is an unsustainable working environment that needs to change.

              1. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

                OK, so what are your thoughts on Susie’s impacts here, regardless of her intention, on the OP and the work environment as well? It’s hard to imagine that if she’s upset enough to cry to OP a week after a specific incident about said incident that she’s not also expressing herself to others in ways that are likely only exacerbating the problem. Heck, we get a hint of that in the update when the OP relates how someone else said something like “I mean, you can see she’s in all those meetings, what do you think is happening?”

                Sally is a problem, but the fact that you seem resistant to the idea that Susie might be too is interesting.

                1. A*

                  Thank you for saying Sally is a problem.

                  I think everybody in this letter failed in some pretty basic ways of getting along with each other. Sally is the worst, then the LW, and trailing by a lot is Susie. I can agree Susie needs some mild coaching office communication but that is the most I will blame Susie in this situation.

                  Mostly, I think everybody is stuck in a rut. I hope Sally’s break can help them break free from that. This is some really basic “getting along with other people” stuff and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

                2. Just say non*

                  If I were the manager I would be hard pressed to decide which employee is the bigger problem. Sally has known problems that are being worked on. Susie created more problems, including cleaning up Sally’s mess after being explicitly told not to do so by OP so that the situation could be addressed. Susie has serious communication and evidently problem-solving challenges and there seems to be no evidence that she is getting help for those issues. I wish OP the best!

            2. NotAnotherManager!*

              Days after incidents that repeat over and over and over again with no end in sight. Yeah, Susie is totally the problem here. I bet SHE is crying AT YOU, though. Bizarre that you think Susie’s emotional upset that is directed at her boss is somehow worse than Sally’s gross and constant mess that is the entire office’s problem.

              There are a lot of coworker behaviors that no one is doing at you that still aren’t appropriate. I don’t think microwaving fish or burning popcorn are done AT YOU either, but they’re still inconsiderate. Leaving giant messes in the common area is no different. No one really cares whether your fish nuking is an aggressive action toward a scent-sensitive coworker you can’t stand or just inconsiderate, everyone has to suffer through it anyway.

          3. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

            The fact that Susie cries is not the problem. The fact that Susie cries to the OP a week after something happened is…pretty darn odd to me. And she refused the accommodations that would allow her to avoid the problematic environment at least some of the time. But still wants to cry about it to the OP. If you kick away your life raft, I’m going to feel a lot less sympathy when you tell me you are drowning.

            1. wilted spinach*

              I mean, if Susie likes her office and likes coming onsite, then it’s pretty crappy that the solutions offered are for her to change things she likes because of someone else’s truly unacceptable behavior.

              I get that the crying on Friday is a lot – but she’s been dealing with this massively unacceptable levels of mess for months on end. It’s probably not the mess from Monday; it’s that there was a mess on Monday, and there will almost certainly be another one next week and nothing is changing.

              1. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

                I guess I am just used to the idea that management solving workplace issues is rarely swift, so I also find her repeated inquiries when the OP told her they were handling it obnoxious, on top of the other things. It seems clear to me that it was only ever intended as a temporary bandaid while the OP worked with Sally, not a permanent exile.

                Susie really seems to take Sally’s issues personally, as someone else noted, she’s been reacting as if Sally is aggressively being messy at Susie on purpose to make her unhappy (and, it seemed as if she was taking the OP’s not-observably-punishing-Sally-for-her-crimes personally too). It took someone spelling out what seemed pretty clear for Susie to put 2 and 2 together.

                I’m sure it feels/felt to Susie like it would never end. But she still declined the potential options to alleviate that pain, even if they were not her ideal outcome. I’m used to having to compromise on these things. Nothing happens instantly, and you have do the best/make the best choices to protect yourself with what you’ve got. Susie just seems to want to marinate in it without doing anything other than crying.

                1. Buffy will save us*

                  I agree. After offering all the accommodations and explaining that work was being done with Sally, I would have shut down any further crying/complaining. “We have discussed how stressful this is for you and I have offered you accommodations as well as explaining we are working on it. If you choose not to accept the accommodations to remove yourself from the situation and away from the stress, I cannot help you further and we need to discuss only work situations for which I can provide further assistance from now on.”

                2. wilted spinach*

                  I think Susie has the right to expect better, and to consistently convey that expectation to her boss until better is done. Crying probably isn’t the best way to do that, sure, but it’s been months. Reasonable approaches have not been effective.

                  This is not a small thing; this is not a “other people are annoying” thing. It is quite reasonable to expect to gigantic, moldy messes in the common areas of your workspaces. It is quite reasonable to not be punished for gigantic, moldy messes in the workspace that you did not make or contribute to. And this has been going on for months, and likely would have moved even slower without Susie consistently raising issues, so there is no reason to trust a move would be “temporary.”

                  I think Susie is taking it personally because it is personally affecting her. Which is reasonable. Sally might not be making messes at her, but she’s certainly not thinking of the impact on others, including Susie, when she’s leaving giant messes in common workspaces.

                4. Glen*

                  in fairness to Susie, she wasn’t told “it’s being handled”, she was told “it’s been handled”, a very, very different statement indeed and one that implies nothing more will be done. It’s frustrating that LW didn’t acknowledge that the feedback they were giving Susie is absolutely bonkers.

          4. hbc*

            Come on. You can’t let Susie off the hook for her unprofessional behavior just because there’s a friendship involved. Frankly, she’s not being a great friend either if she’s pretending to Sally that everything is great and then venting to her boss on the regular.

            None of this changes Sally’s responsibility or (lack of) professionalism in the office.

          6. e271828*

            The commenters seem never to have been in a situation like this. The stress and pending conflict created by Sally’s messes that get cleaned up and then continually return would have a lot of people in tears. There is no relief, there is no respite, there is only an unpredictable interval before Sally makes the common office unusable again. The frustration, the disrespect, the unwillingness to rip a friend a new one for being an inconsiderate slob, it all adds up to a lot of mental weight.

            1. Citymouse*

              This, so much this. Sometimes it’s also between crises that the repeated weight of what is happening really hits you too.

        2. huh*

          Someone saying they don’t love Susie’s behavior does not immediately condone Sally’s. This is not the gotcha you think it is.

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            Yeah, it’s a “so you hate waffles” response. But from their comments, they seem pretty invested in this situation having a A Good Person (Susie) and A Bad Person (Sally). That’s something we all do sometimes, so I get it. But I think that’s the lens through which they are reading people’s comments.

            1. A*

              No, I think people are losing sight of basic common sense and courtesy. Sally created the mess that instigated this entire conflict. The LW really dropped the ball in managing it or nipping it in the bud.

              Now everybody in the situation is stuck in a rut. I think Sally going on leave is the best thing for Sally’s mental health, for sure. It’s also best for the LW and for Susie to take a breather and get some space from this.

              It shouldn’t be this complicated.

            2. Saturday*

              Yes, this drives me nuts. We’re not here to pick one winner and one loser. It’s such black-and-white thinking, and it gets so boring.

              Situations and relationships are so much more complex (and interesting) than that. Commenting on problematic behavior on one person’s part does not take points away from them and give them to the other person.

        3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Literally no one said that. 6 of 1 actually said it was a real problem. but wailing and gnashing your teeth instead of taking one of the options offered — while the problem is being resolved — does reflect on the other person too.

          1. A*

            I think “wailing and gnashing your teeth” is giving Susie a worse edit than is exactly fair.

            The more I see this discussed the more it seems like a pressure cooker for a lot of different issues at the same time. The LW, Sally, and Susie seem stuck in a really unproductive rut about this.

            I hope Sally takes time off work for her own mental health. I also hope the break helps all three of them see working together with fresh eyes. Because none of this sounds like a healthy or, frankly, normal place to work.

            1. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

              Possibly I’m over-interpreting, but I am quite stuck on the idea that she calls on a Friday to cry about something that happened and was dealt with on a Monday. That’s a LOT. That suggests to me that, at best, she’s got some very big feelings that need an outlet that isn’t associated with work.

              1. JustCuz*

                She, in her mind, likely thinks Susie thinks Sally has been making messes AT HER, and that its not an executive functioning thing – or she has been told this and just doesn’t understand / refuses to acknowledge it in her own friend. ANYWAY it seems now Susie seems to understand she was taking someone personal that was never personal. Like, Susie invented a conflict in her mind where Sally was passive aggressively doing this at her because it seems like MAYBE Susie deals with her own issues with others in passive-aggressive ways like calling her boss crying on Friday about something that was rectified on Monday.

                And yeah this is a lot of arm-chair relationship assumptions here, but I also feel like they are the only ones that make sense. Susie’s got some stuff to work out herself, and I hope OP does speak to her about the importance of being able to work with others and what that actually looks like (setting boundaries, being more direct, sharing a space, etc.)

                2. Properlike*

                  Also, if someone just had a baby, and was already dealing with a stressful work situation they can’t control and the Powers that Be seem not to be taking seriously, I imagine she’s got a lot of hypervigilance built up, worry that SHE will be seen as the problem, and will she have to get a new job when she’s already stretched thin? New parenthood is when you’re smacked in the face with a complete lack of self-agency. By Friday, she’s fried to a crisp.

              2. Dogmomma*

                no she’s crying on Friday bc there’s a NEW mess from Tuesday on that needs to.be cleaned up. every. single. week. it’s filthy. all.the.time.

        4. 6 of 1, Half a Doz of the Other*

          No, but I was specifically commenting on Susie, not Sally. That’s why I talked about Susie. She seems to be a bigger problem for OP than OP realizes, though she’s still not the primary source of difficulties.

          While Susie didn’t cause Sally’s problems and while Susie has a right to work in a cleaner environment more conducive to working, the choices she is making/reactions she is having are not helping and in fact are burdensome in a different way than Sally’s struggles to the OP. I am still quite stuck on calling the OP crying a week after a problem was identified and solved. That’s not appropriate. And as I said, if she has her own but undisclosed mental health issues, that could at least put this behavior in context, but we don’t know if that’s and she could just be reacting really strongly to the point of inappropriate actions. And while no one is obligated to disclose those things, in the absence of disclosure, we have to operate on the information available to us.

          If Susie wants to sob to OP, but Susie also won’t accept the alternatives OP offered that would reduce Susie’s experience of the the environment that causes her so much distress, even temporarily, then she really seems to be demanding OP fire Sally. Surely Susie, Sally’s “friend” understands that this is not something that will change suddenly unless Sally is fired?

          If Susie claims to be Sally’s friend, but then turns around to do wail to their shared boss about specific instances even though they were solved days ago (and refuses alternative accommodations that would remove her from the situation in part or full), it really doesn’t seem like the actions of a friend but rather the actions of someone who wants OP to make Sally go away. That is not the most charitable interpretation possible. More charitably, it sounds like she needs a therapist onto whom to unburden herself and who could, in theory, reflect back to her things like “But your boss says they are working on addressing it, and Sally is observably in meetings that are probably about that, what do you think about that?” and give her some kind of reality check.

          I am not saying Sally is doing good things, nor that Sally should be allowed to do whatever. But Susie cannot have her cake and cry about it too.

          1. wilted spinach*

            There’s a couple things here.

            First, the problem wasn’t solved. The mess was cleaned, but everybody involved knows another mess is coming. At some point, that in itself becomes a big stress. She’s probably crying (which is over the top, I agree) less about Monday’s mess and more about the fact that at some point next week, she’s going to walk in and the mess will be back and there’s nothing she can do about it. I don’t think crying is the most helpful or reasonable answer, but this is way past the point of reasonable, and I am at least sympathetic to why someone might cry.

            Second, suggesting Susie change her office or wfh because of Sally’s truly unacceptable behavior is just crappy. That’s just punishing Susie for Sally’s behavior. I don’t blame Susie for not taking the options; her office and her onsite/WFH arrangement isn’t the issue, especially if she likes her current location minus Sally’s (again) completely unacceptable behavior.

            And I’m not sure Susie should be talking to Sally about this. Sally’s behavior is unacceptable and unreasonable, and that is normally the point where it becomes the manager’s responsibility to deal with. I don’t think Susie could have a rational conversation with Sally about this at this point, anyways.

            Again, I don’t think Susie is responding perfectly, or well, but it’s been months of this and that’s a very real stress on Susie with (until this update) no end in sight. It’s completely understandable that she doesn’t respond well to that.

      2. duinath*

        yeah… i left the first letter thinking not enough was done to manage sally, but if i’d known the full extent of susie’s behavior at the time i’d be thinking the same of her.

        if i were lw, i’d be keeping in mind that if susie starts up again, on this topic or any other, there needs to be a conversation between the two of them about what options she has, and what options she does not have.

        in this letter she was offered to work out of a different office, she was offered to work from home, both fine and valid options, and what she chose to do was call lw crying about a problem that had been handled already, in some cases days before the call. that is not an option i would consider reasonable.

        i hope hr and higher ups are committed to actually handling problem behavior going forward, because when your hands are tied like this it really helps no one.

    2. A*

      I mean, Sally’s mess is so enormous the LW doesn’t even know how it is created. Let’s not lose sight of how egregiously unprofessional that is.

      Sally was 95% of the letter when it originally ran. She is 95% of the problem today.

      1. Beany*

        Sally was 95% of the problem the LW was presented with, but 0% of the problem the LW asked about.

        The LW was taking action about Sally, and needed help with Susie. And yes, Susie’s reaction to Sally’s messiness *is* a problem in and of itself.

        1. A*

          Next time I work next to moldy food containers I will be sure to communicate about that perfectly.

          1. Hyena*

            If you saw a moldy food container on Monday, and it was cleaned up by someone else, would you then call your boss crying about it on Friday? After it had already been resolved and without requiring you to do anything about it?

              1. Sar*

                But, like, work doesn’t have a pre-crime division. And they ARE actively managing it, but Susie isn’t privy to.

                1. Allonge*

                  But you cannot expect her to be like ‘ooooh, so there are mysterious meetings and possibly this is starting to be handled, so all is hunky-dory now’ while the mess keeps happening and LW is not telling her anything beyond ‘it’s being handled’.

                  She does not know what she does not know. Her own mental health is being impacted in addition by having a baby.

                  If we accept ‘mental health’ as a thing for the mess-maker, we should accept ‘mental health’ as a factor for the mess-intolerant.

                2. allathian*

                  The point is, she should be. It’s not a state secret that Sally’s issues are being dealt with. And if they’re such friends, why doesn’t Susie simply ask Sally?

                  Being a new mom did a number on my emotional regulation and executive function, and I’m glad I was able to take maternity leave until my son was 2 years old.

          2. JB (not in Houston)*

            If your boss has offered you accomodations so that you rarely have to work next to food containers, and you choose not to accept them, and if your boss cleans up the food containers but you call her crying about them five days later, then you have become a whole separate problem that your manager has to deal with.

            1. Martin Blackwood*

              Yeah, idk, feels a little like suffering through your lactose intolerance because theres only one milk alternative and you dont like it.

            2. Andromeda Carr*

              I know that the current zeitgeist in the USA is that women with children should become tradwives instead of having the effrontery to seek outside employment, but I think that Susie having just had a baby is a major aspect of her behavior. Pregnancy can affect people’s emotional regulation, and I would not want to WFH with a small baby at home because I would find it difficult to concentrate on work with my baby present even if someone was taking care of the child for me.

              Now, lacking details, I don’t know why Susie didn’t want to move offices but I also don’t think she’s required to be a perfect worker to deserve a mold-free work environment and I still think many people here think she is the one most, or even only, at fault, because she commits the unforgivable sin of crying. As a society we have the idea that women cry mendaciously on cue to manipulate other people and should be sternly punished for doing so, and I really don’t think that idea is actually true.

              1. Beany*

                I haven’t seen *anyone* here claim that Susie is “the one most, or even only, at fault”.

                1. Andromeda Carr*

                  JustCuz: “Susie invented a conflict in her mind”
                  FunkyMunky: ” Susie declined 2 options to make her life better, and continues to cause drama around it. at this point I don’t think the mess Sally makes is actually an issue here”

              2. Hyena*

                I’m afab nonbinary and I cry frequently for no reason. I’m not shaming her or women as a whole for crying as a general phenomenon. Crying alone is not the problem. It’s calling the boss to cry At Her, when the problem is 1. known, 2. being worked on, and 3. not presently requiring any additional effort from her. That then IS offloading her emotional reactions about a justifiably frustrating situation onto her boss to manage for her.

            3. wilted spinach*

              because those “accommodations” are actually just punishing Susie for Sally’s mess.

  6. Beth*

    It sounds like you’ve worked really hard to bring this to the best possible outcome for everyone. You’re preventing this from impacting client meetings and ensuring it doesn’t get too out of hand by cleaning every few days; Sally is getting some accommodations and potential leave time; your boss understands what a mess this has become and is supporting actions to improve the situation; Susie has calmed down (thank god for a benignly-gossiping coworker!). That’s a huge win for you.

    2. Glen*

      I don’t think they actually have done a great job in this specific situation. Telling Susie things have been handled when the messes are still happening is awful, it’s no wonder she was so stressed out. The process was/is being followed, things are being handled, but they absolutely haven’t BEEN handled, and saying so really does suggest that the forever solution is letting the messes keep happening and leave them there until OP can get to the office to clean it up. The sheer lack of simple communication is pretty appalling, and LW hasn’t amended that or even acknowledged it’s a problem, when in fact it is THE problem.

  7. blood orange*

    I can somewhat relate to Susie’s reaction, though it does sound like an overreaction. I get stressed around mess, and if it’s not addressed, I do become increasingly agitated. Combined with the social dynamic of them being friends along with the length of time this has been happening, I’d probably be losing it too.

    1. Beth*

      I’d also be losing it in this environment, but calling in tears days after it’s been cleaned up is still a little much! It sounds like Susie was just fed up and didn’t think OP was taking it seriously–once the coworker pointed out OP’s calendar and what it might mean, she calmed down–but I see why this behavior was so frustrating for OP.

      1. FunkyMunky*

        I agree. I think Susie is a very clean person so she blows this highly out of proportion. I’m like that, and I still think it’s overkill

      2. JB (not in Houston)*

        calling in tears days later AND turning down options that would get her away from the mess she’s crying about

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          We don’t know why Susie doesn’t want to work from another office or from home. There could be many valid reasons for turning down both. While calling days later in ta

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            Sorry, phone cut me off:

            We don’t know why Susie doesn’t want to work from another office or from home. There could be many valid reasons for turning down both. While calling days later in tears isn’t okay, lets not bash her for continuing to work in what is supposed to be her office.

    2. mango chiffon*

      There’s the mention that Susie recently had a baby…I’m sure that would come into play for some of this too

      1. Citymouse*

        Yeah pumping and storing milk in a in incredibly messy environment isn’t fun. I also had the option to work from home but didn’t when my son was small because his daycare was a block away from my work.

        I’m sympathetic to Susie.

        1. allathian*

          Indeed! And while I wouldn’t want to blame all of it on Susie’s pregnancy and post partum recovery, the added stress of being a new mom, lack of sleep, etc. certainly contributed to my inability to deal with any additional stress. For the first six months of my son’s life I cried at the drop of a hat, and normally it takes a lot to make me cry.

          1. Guinea pig squeaking*

            thank you. I keep forgetting that Susie is full of hormones as a new mother.

      2. Andromeda Carr*

        Absolutely this and I also think this fact causes many commenters to judge her more harshly for not “knowing her place” and leaving employment upon having a child, an idea which is making a considerable comeback these days, at least in the US.

  8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    Ah, yes, this is a good update.

    My opinion has changed from “maybe a hoarder?” to “incredibly messy artist”. All the other interpersonal stuff between Susie & Sally is a huge subtext as well.

  9. Trash Jenga*

    Am I the only one who feels the lede was buried that it wasn’t mentioned that this was a creative field with messy tools? Perhaps the OP didn’t initially think it was necessary to mention, but I could’ve sworn that there were also moldy food trays involved.

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      There was, it’s mentioned in the first paragraph of the original post. I’m assuming executive dysfunction/ADHD/depression leading to Sally pushing her garbage or partially-eaten food/drinks aside and not getting back to cleaning up after herself.

      1. A*

        I don’t think it matters why Sally isn’t cleaning up garbage or partially-eaten food/drinks aside.

        This is not safe or fair working conditions for everybody around Sally. Some things are just not okay, period, full stop and this is one of them.

        1. lol*

          Just because it’s not okay and Sally shouldn’t be subjected to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter, isn’t relevant, or shouldn’t be taken into account when addressing the situation.

    2. sparkle emoji*

      The original letter definitely mentioned moldy food, which informed a lot of people’s reactions. I wonder if both moldy food and artist mess are happening? If it was run of the mill artist mess, I’d think Sally wouldn’t be singled out.

  10. Searcher*

    This reminds me of a column that I read either on AAM or Captain Awkward but can’t find. Either Alison or Jennifer (CA) had to fire a woman who wasn’t able to do her work over several months due to mental health issues (including the woman’s son passing away in Iraq, iirc), and after several compassionate attempts to help out, she had to be let go. I wish I could find it.

    1. Awkward Fan*

      That’s Captain Awkward’s post on how to up your game at work when you’re depressed. It’s frequently linked to in comments sections here.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      It’s Captain Awkward #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed. The section about the woman whose son was in Iraq is in the answer under Work Behaviors.

      I’ll post a link in a follow up comment.

  11. I am the mess*

    This content is so relatable. I too work in a creative position and have close coworkers in different roles that aren’t as messy. After hosting an event I frequently have to dump a mess on my desk, on a cart, or shove it in a closet so I can make it to my next duty location on time and not throw off everyone else’s schedule. Often I don’t have the grey space to deal with it until a day or two later and I know it’s frustrating for others (me too!) but there are structural issues that make it impossible for me to be tidier. Luckily everyone is pretty understanding and I do my best to communicate to my boss that the only long term fixes would be to give me more time or fewer tasks.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      Yeah, I don’t work in a creative field, but I have hobbies, and I can be a Sally at home. I’m surprised by all the people who can’t understand how this could happen in an artistic field. Maybe their kitchens are immaculate when they sit down to Thanksgiving dinner, but surely they have observed people who don’t clean as they go?

      For example, I like to bake. Very occasionally, I might make a cake and cookies on the same day. So, at least 2 mixing bowls, cake pan and cookie tray, all the ingredients, and cakes and cookies have different decorating tools – all covering counters, sink, table, even chairs. If I don’t clean as I go, the mess flows into the living room.

      I can imagine it would only take a couple of Sally’s projects to use up all the space in her office, especially if, like cakes and cookies, the projects involve different mediums and tools (e.g., water based v oil based paint, or paint and decoupage).

      1. A*

        Sally can be as disorganized as she pleases in her own space.

        In common space she needs to demonstrate basic courtesy to other people and that includes not leaving her stuff around. It doesn’t really matter if it’s moldy food containers or art supplies. Common areas require common courtesy.

        How you cook Thanksgiving dinner or bake in your own home doesn’t change any of that.

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        I also like to bake, so I get how messes can happen. But when I’m sharing a space with others I make sure to clean up after myself, especially in spaces that they use as well. I’m not sure why that’s difficult to grasp?

      3. wilted spinach*

        I’ve made huge messes at work in the name of work. But I (1) keep them contained to a specific, defined space like a conference room or table; (2) clean them immediately up after I’m done; and (3) if I really cannot clean them up immediately after I’m done, use notes & emails/messages to let people know that the mess is there and will be cleaned up by [specific time less than 24 hours away].

      4. Coverage Associate*

        I get the follow on comments about leaving a mess, but there were originally comments that seemed to not understand mess at all. I have encountered people who are almost compelled to clean as they go, and it sounds like Susie is one of them.

        I wonder if Sally can get additional work space in her office. Maybe a table instead of a bookcase?

  12. Stuart Foote*

    I am glad there is a positive update, but I could not handle working in an office where on the one hand I had spend up to an hour cleaning up moldy food containers and on the other hand had to talk down a worker crying about something from almost a week ago. Hopefully things get better for LW.

    1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      Right? This bit:

      > Susie will still call me crying over a mess that has already been cleaned. The mess could occur and be cleaned up on a Monday, and Susie is still calling me crying about it on a Friday.

      Susie is having some major emotions here. I suspect that outside stuff is bleeding into work stuff, but still.

  14. A*

    Is the LW actually prepared to fire Sally if she can’t clean her mess by the end of the PIP?

    I really hope so.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Probably not. It sounds like she’ll be taking FMLA before finishing the PIP. I have no idea how that works – do you pause the PIP until they get back, treat it as completed, start it over when they return or just act like the time off is a big reset button?

      1. A*

        I think FMLA for Sally sounds like the best solution to this entire situation. I would think the PIP would pause while she was gone and resume when she returns.

        I think the FMLA break is good for Sally. But I also think it would be good for the LW, Susie, and anybody else at this workplace who has to deal with/hear about this situation.

      2. kalli*

        Usually the PIP is paused.

        Some people do a meeting when someone comes back, just confirming what’s up and where it’s up to, but a lot of the time that just gets folded into regular return to work management ‘while you were gone’ update processes that happen.

    3. Olive*

      I’m concerned that this update is a temporary solution. I hope that Sally gets the help she needs.

  15. H.Regalis*

    LW, I am so glad for all of you that the mess is paint and other art supplies instead of rotting food and/or bodily fluids.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      It’s not instead of. The first letter mentioned moldy food containers. So it is both rotting food *and* art supplies.

  16. jenni*

    I work in a creative field—and had a coworker that was 100% Sally. In normal times, her desk/office and surrounding area were fairly messy mound of piles (though I am not exceptionally neat and tidy myself). We moved to an open floor plan and then she had a family tragedy that put her in a tailspin, and understandably, it got so. much. worse. Others of us would go to her desk to try and find an item or file and were horrified. For several years we tiptoed around the problem because of said tragedy, but eventually her work started to suffer and she was put on a PIP. My own desk is a pile of sketches, notes, photos, reference books, and yes, sometimes paint! It takes no time at all, lol

  17. FunkyMunky*

    I’m sad that Sally is on PIP and it’s known that she has/had mental health crisis. I feel like the whole thing still wasn’t addressed properly. Susie is besties with her but basically caused all the right ups because of the mess situation? that’s a mess of its own type. Susie declined 2 options to make her life better, and continues to cause drama around it. at this point I don’t think the mess Sally makes is actually an issue here

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Susie didn’t cause the write-ups, Sally did by not cleaning up after herself. It sounds like the mental health issue is a new development, so not the reason for Sally’s messes in both her office and the rest of the office.

      1. owen*

        it sounds like *disclosure* of the mental health issue is a new development, i don’t think we can conclude anything about its relatedness to the messes overall.

        1. owen*

          meant to say – agree susie did not ’cause’ any write-ups though. just that we don’t actually know how the mental health issues may or may not play into this.

    2. sparkle emoji*

      I think the write-ups would have been necessary even without Susie’s response. The volume of the mess, speed of their creation, and the moldy food containers mentioned in letter 1 aren’t okay. The stuff Sally has going on that’s making this worse is sad, but the letter says it exacerbated her mess making, not created it out of thin air. Even if Susie was out of the picture, I really don’t think these messes would fly in any functional office.

    3. Colette*

      It’s too bad that Sally is having mental health issues, and I hope that she is able to take leave to start her recovery. But giving leave is a reasonable response, expecting everyone else to work in chaos is not.

      Susie is not wrong to report the customer-visible issue (although she is wrong to fixate on the mess after it has been cleaned up.)

    4. Paint N Drip*

      I agree, there are nuances here that make me feel like Sally is not being served well. I recognize that Sally’s mess was the crux of the issue but also agree that Susie’s repeated intense dredging of the issue (which is IMO way too much! days after the cleanup?? if Sally is being messy with items/supplies, Susie is being messy with her emotions) caused the repeated write-ups. Susie could have moved offices as offered, the business could make suitable space for Sally to do her creative work that doesn’t impact meetings or external eyes, but instead the end result is Sally is on a PIP which I’ll take OP at their word is fine with Sally (but would personally tank any mental health reserves I had left, but that’s me)

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Sally is on a PIP/write-ups are due to her inability to clean up messes as she has been told to do. Susie was not the only employee complaining about the messes, she was just the one complaining the most (and apparently in tears). I’m not saying Susie’s reactions were okay, but Sally’s PIP is not on her! The LW specifically asked Susie to let them know when Sally had left a huge mess (which, according to the LW, took an hour to clean).

    5. Coverage Associate*

      I can imagine that the lead up to the crisis could have contributed to the messes even if they could have been managed before. For example, if an ill family member meant Sally couldn’t stay late to clean up, even when she was mentally healthy enough to do so, the family member’s worsening illness or passing could have made the situation reach a crisis.

    6. Andromeda Carr*

      I don’t think the mess Sally makes is actually an issue here

      So, mold and chaos are fine but having any emotional reaction to same is the real problem.

  18. Susannah*

    What a great, and encouraging update! Glad to hear this was dealt with on a sensible and human level.

  19. Dr. Temperance Brennan*

    Susie doesn’t sound like a great friend. If she knows Sally well I assume she would know about the mental health crisis or at least that her friend was having a tough time. But she continued to complain about her to their boss and incessantly demand punishment? It sounds like both their work output is good but frankly Susie is more of a problem than Sally. Calling crying and refusing to listen to the boss about not cleaning up the mess is way more disruptive than the mess itself. And she’s questioning how it’s being handled to the point another colleague felt they had to step in and explain to her that it is? Susie is messier than Sally, it’s just emotional and not physical. I hope Sally can get the help she needs and perhaps this will improve her messiness.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Sally’s mental health issue is a new development, so it wasn’t the cause of her mess. Susie has every right to want to work in an office that isn’t a pigsty, especially as she hosts clients there. While she should have listened to the LW about not cleaning up the messes (and it sounds like she has done that now) she was put in a tough situation.

      And no, calling the boss and crying about the mess is NOT more disruptive than a mess that takes an hour to clean and (per the original letter) includes moldy food containers.

      1. Wayward Sun*

        They may or may not be related. I was involved in a really sad situation where we had a professor who was experiencing dementia but didn’t want to admit it, and in hindsight the first sign that he was going downhill was when his office filled up with trash.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Per the LW, the issue happened in the winter and exacerbated the already existing situation. Not saying there couldn’t have been an existing issue at play, but based on what the LW has stated the messes were an issue prior to the incident.

      2. Dr. Temperance Brennan*

        I feel like calling days after the mess was cleaned to cry more about it is a LOT. I’d question their judgment if I worked with them especially when they refused the multiple solutions offered.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Susie could have many valid reasons for not wanting to work from home or from the other office. Also, she’s not the only one complaining about Sally’s mess!

          1. FosterFail*

            If I were Susie, I’d be paranoid to work from home, in case when I came back to campus to meet with a client Sally’s mess had “somehow” spilled from the common area into my office too and nobody cleaned it up. Likewise, I’d hesitate to accept an alternative office. Unless that relocation was permanent, I’d be paranoid I’d be returning to a gargantuan mess in my original office. The LW didn’t say why Susie refused the options she was given.

    2. sparkle emoji*

      It sounds like she’s uncomfortable confronting a friend and upset by the mess so her solution is “call LW and have them clean it up”. It’s not fantastic but it’s also not necessarily punitive. I also don’t think Susie’s complaint’s seemed targeted at getting Sally fired, but rather seeking LW’s acknowledgement that this is a Big Serious Issue. LW was taking it seriously while giving Sally some discretion, so Susie didn’t think LW saw the problem till the other coworker pointed out the clues. I think based on what we have in the letters, it’s possible Susie felt like she was protecting her friend by protecting the relationship while also flailing for some kind of help, even if she was messy.

      1. DisgruntledPelican*

        Her solution is also call LW several days after a mess has already been cleaned up and cry about it some more. To the point where another coworker had to eventually call her out and tell her to knock it off.

        1. Dr. Temperance Brennan*

          Yes! This is what I mean when I say Susie is messy, like damn I get the mess on Monday is upsetting but calling crying about it on Friday is like … lady get over it

          1. I Have RBF*

            Yeah, in that regard Suzie is more of a mess emotionally than Sally. Sally spreads her mess physically, Suzie spreads her mess emotionally. Suzie and her need to cry about stuff that has already been cleaned up would get on my nerves very quickly.

          2. Citymouse*

            But the issue keeps happening over and over again. The issue isn’t solved and Susie just wants it to stop happening. so viewing it as Susie complaining about a resolved issue isn’t really accurate. Susie and anyone really can’t be expected to work in a place with moldy food and where they struggle to meet with clients because of mess.

      2. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

        Per the original letter, the LW told her to call when there was a mess.

        1. Dr. Temperance Brennan*

          She did, and I’m not annoyed at Sally for doing so. It’s the calling about the mess after the mess was already dealt with days earlier I find odd.

      3. Glen*

        “call LW and have them clean it up” is not only NOT her solution, she’s refusing to do it despite that being LW’s direct instruction.

    3. Not My Usual Name*

      I have several good friends. Exactly one of them is the one who I call in tears when All Of The Things Happen And I Just Cannot (I’m that one for her, too). The others are absolutely also good friends, but I don’t share about my 10 year old screaming she wants to kill me with everyone because it is exhausting to share that.

    4. Andromeda Carr*

      Where is Susie demanding *punishment*, as opposed to action?

      (It continues to be amazing and striking how Susie’s crying and upset is judged as worse than any health hazards Sally can produce. Even/especially with the emotional dysregulation that pregnancy can cause)

      Honestly I can see being frustrated to tears with a friend I care deeply about who is making my work environment untenable, and not wanting to tell her off because she’s my friend and because I’m not her supervisor. I guess I don’t find Susie as monstrous as many commenters do.

  20. Kevin Sours*

    “As for Susie, she did actually catch on that my boss and I were actively addressing the situation with Sally because another coworker pointed it out … I’m a little grateful that other team member pointed out what I was trying to allude to.”

    I think the main takeaway here is that one Susie was provided with reasonable information about what was happening her attitude about it improved. That and dropping vague hints is not an effective way to communicate.

    1. Bluenyx*

      Yeah, it’s a little disappointing that LW appears to have ignored a key part of the advice, which was: this is not a state secret, you should communicate that real steps are being taken to Susie. It seems like LW is just happy they didn’t have to address it. The coworker I guess kinda solved the problem, but tbh Susie shouldn’t have to read tea leaves to know her manager is taking the problem seriously. I would be relieved but still kinda annoyed in her place.

  21. Jennifer Strange*

    Sally’s mental health issue is a new development, so it wasn’t the cause of her mess. Susie has every right to want to work in an office that isn’t a pigsty, especially as she hosts clients there. While she should have listened to the LW about not cleaning up the messes (and it sounds like she has done that now) she was put in a tough situation.

    And no, calling the boss and crying about the mess is NOT more disruptive than a mess that takes an hour to clean and (per the original letter) includes moldy food containers.

      1. Andromeda Carr*

        TBH I think it deserves a top comment, as it’s a piece of the story many commenters keep discarding in their rush to condemn Susie as the entirety of/the worst part of the problem.

  22. Jonathan MacKay*

    I think I’ve determined my HR Rule Zero – (seeing as I have yet to find work in the field, but am close to completing all steps for a professional certification therein) – “Always remember that there’s a Human Being on the other end.”

  23. PlainJane*

    It occurs to me that one thing that might be helpful for the office to do in this situation is to create a space for creative projects. If this is something you end up having to do a lot, why not build a studio workspace that has a large table, maybe convertible to a drafting table, with lots of large storage spaces (maybe the table could have built in cupboards?) and, if possible, a sink to clean out brushes after you’re done with them. Each worker who does that work could have a little cubby to keep particular small things they’re using in, and the cupboards would be large enough to contain big in-progress projects. If painting is going on, make sure there’s a space for it to dry.

    This wouldn’t be practical in an office that had occasional things you need to do creatively, but it sounds like this kind of work is integral to the business, and really should have a better location than someone’s office. (And that’s not just for Sally. That’s just common sense if it’s part of what you do.)

    1. Cyrano*

      It seems like Sally has her own office to do these projects in and is unable to contain her materials (plus food waste) to that office. I’m not sure how having a shared area for projects would help!

      1. PlainJane*

        If it’s an office like any other office, there may not be sufficient space. Eg, if it’s a normal size office with two people and two desks each with a computer and telephone on it, plus whatever space there is for storage of needed materials, there’s not a lot of space to paint a poster or whatever she’s doing. A studio with a large workspace, a sink to clean brushes, and proper storage areas for ongoing projects? From my experience, a lot of these messes start up because you’re trying to work in a space that’s not designed for the work you’re doing, and you end up piling things everywhere and just trying to find a corner of the floor where you can put things down to dry. Or taking everything off your desk except the computer and stacking it elsewhere so you have a work surface, but then you have to abandon it before everything gets put back. If there’s a space that’s actually designed for the creative projects, then you don’t run into that. It would also be a space to store smocks, paints, and all the things that don’t really belong in an office, but which would be useful for the employees who need to do that work.

        (We don’t really know how big Suzie and Sally’s office is, so I’m using my own tiny shared one as reference. If it’s really big, maybe a work surface other than the desk and a larger trash can could go in. Either way, from the sound of it, Sally is trying to do her work in an area that isn’t really suited to it.)

  24. Bronze Betty*

    Side note to all the Susie and Sally update: I appreciate that OP’s boss voiced to her that “she made a mistake by not escalating this to HR faster.”

    It can be so beneficial for a boss to admit to their staff (either an individual or a group), that they messed up in a situation and they’ve learned from that mistake. A sign of growth when many supervisors are afraid to admit mistakes, believing that doing so shows weakness. No, it doesn’t wave a magic wand (especially in the case of a huge or egregious mistake), but, for me anyway, it would indicate that the boss would be more likely to approach future issues more thoughtfully.

  25. The Farmer's Daughter*

    One simple rule that can be helpful is “Don’t put it down, put it away.”

    1. Dr. Rebecca*

      Yes, but honestly if that was going to work, it would’ve worked. None of these people are toddlers; they know where things go.

    2. Kella*

      That’s not really applicable in a creative mess, though. If you’re using a variety of supplies and tools, you don’t know when you’re done using it until you’re done, so it’s not practical to put it away immediately after using. It’s hard to guess since we don’t know much about the workflow or layout of the office but what I would bet is that Sally has multiple projects going on at once by necessity, spreads out all the tools, supplies, and discarded things for each of those projects, and both doesn’t clean things up if she has to stop halfway through the project, and probably also doesn’t clean up once it’s finished either.

      It’s hard to recommend strategies for Sally without knowing more but most likely, she needs some combination of a strategy for identifying *when* to clean, maybe lowering the threshold to putting things away (like if the supply closet is messy and crowded, putting stuff away takes much more time and brain power), and whatever work she’s doing in therapy to perhaps de-escalate any emotional responses she has to cleaning.

  26. Dawn*

    It’s great for you that your team members saved you from having to actively address the situation with Susie, but I’m not sure that it’s great for Susie.

    When something like this happens, you can’t just let your concerns for Sally’s “privacy” (which obviously was breached anyway when more perceptive members of the team figured out what happened) prevent you from keeping the people who are affected reasonably within the loop. Susie might not need to know that Sally is being put on a PIP, but she deserved more than a desperate “nudge nudge, wink wink, poke in the eye” from her manager every time she brought this up.

  28. ACM*

    “Don’t know how to professionally convey this to Susie”

    It might be the autism talking, but maybe “Your concerns with Sally’s messy habits have been heard and we’ve also noticed it’s a problem. We’re working with her to change those habits so she can continue to do the high-quality work she has without inconveniencing everyone else” seems like you wouldn’t have to ‘try to allude’ then and everyone could get on with their work without being burdened by ineffective communication.

  29. DivergentStitches*

    IDK I feel like Susie is over the top in calling the OP and crying after the mess has already been cleared up. Sally really needs to shape up, yes I agree, but Susie feels like she’s too unbending on this. Especially if they are friends and Sally is having personal issues at home! Give her some slack, Susie!

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      A) Susie isn’t the only coworker complaining about the mess (even the LW has brought it up to Sally).
      B) Sally is bringing messes (which include moldy food containers) into shared spaces that also host clients.
      C) The person issues are a new development, so the messes have been around since before then.

      1. Guinea pig squeaking*

        Calling in tears the day of to say “the mess is back” is reasonable. calling FOUR DAYS later is not. Something else must be causing these later tears ,even if the stated reason is the mess, and I struggle to see how that’s a reasonable thing to approach your boss with.

    2. Artemesia*

      She may have a form of PTSD from having this hoard inflicted on her workspace week after week month after month. Cleaning it up Friday doesn’t mean it won’t be the same by next Friday

      1. Chickadee*

        Susie isn’t upset about the mess that got cleaned, she’s upset about the *pattern* of messes, with no light at the end of the tunnel. She’s probably calling several days after a mess is cleaned because a) the dread of the Next Mess is growing and b) she doesn’t think her boss understands the severity of the problem. And since she discussing the pattern hasn’t been productive, she brings up the latest mess.

        Susie’s work life is a stress pressure cooker, basically, and she’s trying to hold it together but can only manage for a few days past each mess before the entire thing is Too Much.

        1. allathian*

          This. But it looks to me like the simplest solution would be for Susie to work elsewhere, which she’s been offered but has refused. I really think that Susie’s forfeited her right to constantly keep calling the LW by even refusing to consider any alternative solutions.

          I doubt their office mates are happy about the mess, but they’ve found some other way to deal with it than constant complaints.

          Obviously a solution where Sally cleans up after herself has to be found.

          That said, the thing I find most confusing about the whole thing is the supposed friendship between Susie and Sally. I certainly couldn’t be friends with anyone who made me cry at work. And you’d think that as her friend, Susie would have some standing to tell Sally to clean up after herself…

          1. Chickadee*

            Susie may have legitimate reasons to turn down the proposed accommodations. I’m not surprised she doesn’t want to work from home more often if she has a newborn, for example. Being asked to make changes due to an out of control situation not being addressed (Susie’s impression) must be frustrating.

            I had a similar experience dealing with disability accommodations; I had to keep turning down my manager’s proposed solutions (they were unhelpful) while fighting for the accommodations I actually needed/wanted.

      2. knitted feet*

        She may reasonably be struggling with the situation but ‘a form of PTSD’ is one hell of a stretch.

        1. MeepMeep123*

          My spouse is a Sally, and I can easily believe in the PTSD. I have to follow her around and clean up after her or things don’t get put away. When I was unable to do that for a month, we got a mouse infestation. Living with a hoarder is extremely stressful and if you haven’t done it, you really don’t understand.

          1. knitted feet*

            I do understand, and Susie is not living with a hoarder, she is working with a messy person. Living with a hoarder can be traumatic and that is not what’s happening here.

  30. Lemons*

    There is a strong message in creative fields that people with messy desks/spaces are the most creative, because their piles can ‘inspire unexpected connections’. As a highly productive, highly creative professional who is 100% a neatnik, I have always been annoyed by this assertion. I personally can’t create effectively if what I need is buried and unfindable, it ruins the creative flow.

    If Sally has a messy process, THAT IS FINE, I don’t think there’s much art that can be created without a bit of physical or digital mess. However, cleanup is also a step in every project she appears to just be skipping, which is unprofessional and disrespectful to her colleagues. I’m still annoyed you’re involved in cleaning, LW! Sally needs to be doing all her own cleanup.

  31. workingdayandnight*

    We had a guy like that at one of my companies. One day he screamed and came running out into the hall. He had come back to his office to find a rat eating some of the food and wrappers that were piling up. His office was pristine after that. We used to joke that it took a rat to get rid of the pigsty for good.

  32. Frosty*

    I have executive dysfunction and I am really bad at tidying in general… and even I don’t quite understand how Sally is making this mess, and how she’s allowed to let it get that bad, that quickly.

    I hope that the PIP involves someone overseeing her work, and making sure that 30 minutes before the end of the day, she stops everything she’s doing because it’s clean up time. The same way we learn in elementary school to start putting away our pencils and tidying our area, she needs someone to oversee this until it becomes a habit – or forever if it never becomes a habit.

  33. Artemesia*

    I’m a messy person and I don’t get this. That someone is allowed to make this much of a mess OUTSIDE her own office and it is allowed to go on months and months totally baffles me. This should have been dealt with in a few weeks not months. Personal problems don’t give you the right to scatter your hoard into the general space. everyone else has to work in.

    I have seen ineffectual management in universities — my favorite was the receptionist who had pretty much no work as she refused to learn how work on the computer or to develop skills to deal with student issues and yet was protected for years. There was no full time need for a receptionist who wasn’t willing to also deal with student issues. And then a new senior professor with clout was hired, observed this for about a week and she was gone within the month — he wasn’t even the chair, but he. put some backbone in the chair to deal with this.

  34. Happy Messy Person*

    This is such a great update. When I read the initial letter I was wondering if there was neurodiversity or mental health issues contributing.
    I know with ADHD for example (not diagnosing here, I have ADHD myself) there’s a condition called ‘Object Permanence’ where once you put something down you then stop seeing it as out of place. I am crafty, I can have half finished projects and tools all over the floor where I’m stepping over them constantly, and it doesn’t look like a mess to me.
    I’m so glad that Sally is getting help and HR are working with her. Especially since you’ve said she’s a good worker and a lovely person otherwise. And hopefully Sally and Susie will be able to work better together, as will everyone else at the same location, going forward.
    Thank you for the quick update!

  35. Office Assistant*

    This update highlights something from Susie’s personal life also seems to be bleeding into her work (just like with Sally). Susie refused multiple fair accommodations. Firm no to new office and WFH. Calling her manager crying about mess left up to 4 days ago. The only person who believed nothing was being done when it was obvious to everyone else, including Sally, management has been escalating the issue.

    OP I know you have a lot on your plate, but sounds like Susie might need a check-in too. It is easy to see Sally is/was in crisis due to the mess – and congratulations on all the progress that’s been made since the first post. If Susie is a first time parent recently returned from maternity leave, is there a chance she might be struggling but not comfortable initiating that conversation? And Sally’s mess was something for her to focus on?

    1. wilted spinach*

      those aren’t fair, though – why should Susie have to change because of Sally’s wildly inappropriate mess?

  36. Cyrano*

    There is still so much about this situation that surpasses understanding for me.

    The nature of the mess is still vague, and so is the nature of the problem. Is Sally busy with projects and happier working in an artistically chaotic space (potentially due to ADHD?)? But then where is the mold coming from? Why is it apparently so hard to draw a boundary between Sally’s space and common areas?

    What’s going on with Susie? It’s not clear from the letter whether she’s refused those accommodations because they’re not actually practical (“The nature of Sally’s work is only possible at that office so she is unable to transfer”) or because she’s having her own complex relationship with this situation and denying herself easy outs. I would love the chance to move away from a Sally in my workplace, but not if it’s to somewhere I can’t actually do my job.

    Why is she calling her manager in tears about messes that have been cleared up five days ago? Is that…the truth of that conversation? It feels like we’re either getting a very abstracted version of what’s happening from the letter writer who is maybe not understanding where Susie is coming from, or Susie is having a very intense relationship with this problem.

    And what on earth is going with Susie and Sally’s pally outside-cold war inside relationship? And why is HR handling this situation with Sally in this bizarre way that’s so inappropriate to the situation?

    I keep waiting for a detail that makes me think “Oh, that’s the plot of Withnail and I or the The Odd Couple. It’s a bit!” But…apparently not. I think I tend towards wondering if there’s something about this situation that the letter writer is either not seeing or obscuring from us. But it seems to require intensive and hands on management in a way that isn’t being grasped. Why does it fall to another colleague to point out that Sally is having lots of meetings with HR? Obviously a manager can’t disclose Sally is, or will be, placed on a PIP but surely more could be done to reassure Susie than cryptically and to all appearances wrongly repeat that it’s being handled.

  37. Happy Temp*

    I don’t think this is a positive update. And I’m kind of flabbergasted by the 180 degree turn the comments seem to have taken from the original post. If an employee only thrives under the “clear directions” a PIP imposes, isn’t that a problem? Are they supposed to be on a permanent PIP, then? Doesn’t that alter what the purpose of a PIP is–especially after three previous write-ups that did nothing to change the situation?

    OP mentioned that Sally’s mental health crisis is *recent*, not ongoing, but commenters seems to have taken that and run with it to explain, or even retcon, all of Sally’s previous behavior. Suddenly she has a mental health concern from the start that should have been accommodated all along and now Susie is the big problem because she still complains about the mess after it’s been cleaned up.

    Maybe Susie’s still frustrated because the mess gets cleaned up (by OP and now OP’s own manager?!) and a few days later it’s right back to the huge mess. This cycle of Sally makes a mess *in the client areas where others want to meet with clients* per OP’s original email and someone (first Susie, then OP, and now OP’s manager) cleans it up, and then the mess reappears. How is that solving the problem? Where is Sally accountable for anything at all? Someone else is still responsible for fixing the mess she makes.

    Also, I find the commenters saying “Ohhhh, Susie recently had a BABY” as a blanket explanation for why Susie is “overemotional” kind of gross. And once again, it removes all responsibility for Sally’s actions–Sally’s not a problem at all, Susie is just HORMONAL. I agree with others who asked why SUSIE has to move offices or work from home is the solution to the problem SALLY is causing. Once again, it seems like Sally is this immovable object and everyone just has to work around HER.

    OP says themselves that they work in the Susie/Sally office twice a week and STILL are “baffled” at how the mess grows “so large so quickly.” Isn’t it a bad sign than now OP’s manager ALSO comes to deal with the mess? That doesn’t sound like a manager who is on top of the situation at all. OP has “twice as many meetings with Sally as anyone else” and that’s supposed to be a good thing…when NOTHING has changed as a result of those meetings? And OP is “grateful” that one of Susie’s coworkers said all those things to Susie, but OP somehow wasn’t “allowed” to say the same exact thing? So a peer to Susie can say things about how OP is managing Sally to Susie, but OP can’t say them to Susie themselves, can only “allude” to them? I don’t get that, either.

    2. DramaQ*

      Exactly. I also feel icky writing it off to “Oh Sally is probably neurodivergent!”.

      I am neurodivergent and while my desk can look like a war zone I understand that other humans don’t appreciate that bleeding into their workspaces and to clean up after myself.

      And even then I don’t leave stuff till it gets mold/smelly! I will even take my garbage can out myself if I must (man can ketchup stink!) so others don’t have to smell it.

      Being neurospicy does not excuse you from being courtesy towards others. Being neurospicy does not mean you can’t recognize that moldy/rotten food STINKS and therefore should be thrown out.

      I am also wondering what happens when the PIP is over. The LW has said the mess is still coming back every day which means nothing has really changed. She cleans it up but then makes it again the very next day. To the point now where there are two people cleaning it up. What are the consequences if Sally goes right back to square one after the PIP is up?

      They seem so concerned with accommodating Sally and “the process” that nothing seems to be really getting solved it has just shuffled hands. If you have to babysit someone this much to have them not turn the office into a warzone that is not a “good employee”. She can be good at other parts of her job and still not be able to function in an office setting.

      Why can’t Sally be sent to WFH? Maybe Susie doesn’t want to do the commute? Maybe her office is better set up for privacy when talking to clients on the phone/Zoom. Why is it Susie who has to change her work schedule/life when it would be WAY easier to contain Sally’s mess to her own house instead?

    3. Andromeda Carr*

      Well said.

      I was thinking about the comments I wrote noting that Susie has recently had a baby. What I wanted to say is that both pregnancy and having a new baby can add a lot of stress to someone’s life so I think Susie deserves extra grace as a human being, instead of the condemnation many of the commenters deemed fitting. I wonder how some of the commenters here treat their coworkers who are pregnant or even merely upset while presenting as female?

  39. Dolphins*

    What about the fact that there was mold involved which is a serious health risk especially for anyone with respiratory issues or mold allergies? What about the fact that the messes were taking over an hour to clean up? That is episode-of-Hoarders-level mess right there.

    I don’t buy this update. It seems like the OP saw that they were (rightly) getting dragged in the comments of the original letter for doing eff all so they decided to do some revisionist history on the update to make themselves look better. Hence the “oh but Sally and Susie really are as close as sisters*!!!” and “but MENTAL HEALTH!! Sally is a CREATIVE!! Mental health + Creative means it’s actually all okay for the office to be a biohazard!!”
    Hence the rewriting the situation so that now, Susie is seen as the bad guy.

    *okay wait, are Sally and Susie sisters? And the OP is their mom writing about their bedrooms and this has nothing to do with a workplace?? Because it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve read a letter on here where I thought “this is obviously someone writing in about a non-workplace situation poorly disguised as a workplace problem.” The Kevina letter and update come to mind as a recent example.

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