am I too old-fashioned about employee lateness?

by Alison Green on April 30, 2025

A reader writes:

I feel it is non-negotiable that — except for cases of emergency, sick kids, or traffic jams — employees should be at work on time the vast majority of days. This means getting to work about 10 minutes early in time to hang up a coat, use the bathroom, etc., and be at one’s desk when the hour begins. I feel like most employees and many managers do not so much care about this or, if they do, they don’t say anything to late employees. I have worked with colleagues who regularly show up 10-20 minutes late and no one seems to care. I’m not talking about flex-time jobs. Are my standards old-fashioned?

I answer this question — and three others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • Should I offer my employees resume advice?
  • Are cotton clothes less professional?
  • How to check on collaborators during a natural disaster
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{ 227 comments }

{ 227 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. not nice, don't care*

    No cotton = no me. I have health issues and can’t wear synthetics without taking hit points. I’d have some educational words for a snobby colleague.

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    1. Anonymous 5*

      Same on the educational words. Especially since it’s possible that a lab setting (OP was in biotech I think?) would recommend/require natural fibers as a safety precaution.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, certain solvents are bad with poly fabric. Plus microplastics might cause problems where cotton fibers wouldn’t.

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        1. Dahlia*

          That or fire.

          The way you test mystery fabrics when you’re using them for sewing or crafts is to take a little bit and burn it. Cotton turns to charcoal. Polyester melts into plastic that sticks to anything it touches.

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          1. Bryce*

            Mom had a lot of fabric samples and gave me that demo when I was a kid. It made an impression, I never wear synthetics if I can avoid it.

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    2. Jojo*

      Same. If I ever develop and allergy to cotton, I don’t know what I’m going to wear.

      On the other hand, cotton fabrics come in many types. Denim and Twill can both be made from cotton, but they are clearly different in a professional setting. Even the same cotton jersey knit can look different based on the cut of the garment. So, I’m thinking that cotton isn’t really the problem here. Allison nailed it when she pointed out that drape and cut are more important that fabric.

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      1. Ann Nonymous*

        Maybe the LW needs to iron her clothes or get them professionally pressed. I know people who complain about ironing, but if you can leave the board set up, it literally takes a couple of minutes. Turn the iron on while you’re doing bathroom stuff and it will be ready when you’re done. Invest in a good steam iron and you can glide across the garment. Sometimes you only need to do part of the garment as well; I (or my husband) often just iron the collar and front of his shirt if he’s going to wear a jacket over it.

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        1. Strive to Excel*

          For an office, sales, or other “face-time” job? Sure. A lab job? Look is going to be a lot lower on my priorities list than coverage, breathability, and safety. To my mind as soon as chemicals get involved anything fancier than a pair of scrubs or the lab equivalent is a bonus and not to be expected.

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          1. I Have RBF*

            This. I wore t-shirts and ratty jeans under my lab coat for lab jobs. All of them were stuff that I wouldn’t cry if I accidentally spilled the wrong reagent on them.

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        2. Annika Hansen*

          Super lazy cotton lover. I will either throw my shirt in the dryer with a wet rag or hang in the bathroom while taking a shower to steam them. The result is not as good as ironing, but it still looks pretty good.

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      2. Lemons*

        Silk or linen! These will level you up way over any snooty polyester coworker, and you can get them for cheap second hand. Wool/cashmere can also be really breathable (and fire resistant, which is another plus over synthetics).

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        1. Walk on the Left Side*

          Silk can be much more finicky to care for, but there’s definitely linen that you can wash and dry similar to cotton. Though, I’ve kind of given up finding even mildly professional natural-fiber clothing that I can tumble dry…and at this point I’m buying fabric and making tops because then I can pre-wash and pre-dry the fabric so the finished garment won’t shrink.

          Sigh. Thanks, fashion industry.

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      3. Tiny Soprano*

        Yeah I agree this is a jersey vs woven debate rather than a cotton vs poly debate. Jersey will usually look more casual than a woven like voile or sateen. In the right cut and fit, almost any fabric can look polished and professional, with the possible exception of latex (depending on the profession, of course!)

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        1. Lenora Rose*

          Even jersey can look professional, depending what’s made out of it — says the person in the jersey fitted dress.

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    3. I Have RBF*

      Seriously.

      “I have never worn a t-shirt” would get an up and down look, a slight sniff, and a drawled “Well, I don’t wear plastic.”

      Because, quite frankly, that’s what polyester is. Sure, some poly fabrics have a nice silky drape for a fraction of the cost, but in the end, it’s plastic. Plus, you can have a nice cotton knit shirt that is not a “t-shirt”. The cotton knit polo I’m wearing is not a “t-shirt”, FFS. So it’s completely appropriate to meet snobbery with snobbery.

      Rayon is made from wood pulp, but is made with a process that plasticizes the fiber, so it’s semi-synthetic. Polyester is straight petrochemical plastic. So is acrylic yarn.

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      1. WillowSunstar*

        One of my old jobs was working in a warehouse office. The WH employees would get to wear shorts because it was hot in there during the summers. We office employees were allowed jeans as long as no holes, sneakers as long as they were clean, and T-shirts without logos/words. Then came COVID and no one cared if you were wearing sweatpants while working from home, as long as you had an appropriate top on when someone did an on-video meeting.

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      2. Required*

        It’s quite the snobbish comment that the only thing I could politely reply with is “I’m sorry to hear that.”

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    4. Middle Managing Cog*

      I’m old enough to remember when wearing polyester to work would have been looked down on. Like — it was something that kindergarten teachers wore. Real office folks wore wool suits over 100% cotton shirts and blouses.

      Like — I remember my mother defending the fact that my dad wore 60/40 cotton/poly “permanent press” shirts because she refused to iron shirts. She had to defend herself for “making” her husband wear a poly blend because some folks thought that meant she was lazy and he was slovenly.

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      1. Ms. Murchison*

        Heehee, that reminds me of the book Ecotopia (1975) by Ernest Callenbach. The Ecotopians who wore natural fiber clothes looked askance as the visitor from the US who wore poly blends.

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  2. Bonkers*

    I’m very thankful to have a flexible sort of job, where there is no need for a supervisor to micromanage my time. I consider myself in work status with my first badge swipe. I figure, if I’m allowed to take bathroom breaks in the middle of the day, I’m also allowed to take one on the way from the entrance to my office.

    I totally agree with Alison’s take – unless it’s a coverage-based position, who cares?

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    1. what even*

      Even in coverage-based jobs, it is hard to get people to show up on time these days. I work in healthcare… Both providers and nursing staff who are younger than about 40ish can’t seem to arrive at work before their first appointment slot. Or at least, not in time to prepare to see their first appointment.

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  3. WindmillArms*

    My brother and I have the same professional certification and worked at the same office at the start of our careers, but under different managers. My manager respected the company’s flex time policies and cared about results. His manager was a time tyrant who would lecture her staff about “time theft” for being two minutes late coming back from lunch. I stayed with the company for over ten years, becoming an expert and a huge value to the company. He left after less than a year and now uses his talents in a different field entirely.

    Yes, you’re being old-fashioned and you will actively hurt your company.

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    1. LabSnep*

      Our manager was doing the time theft thing, including saying we had to not be in the washroom, but she stopped that after a few of us had a conversation with the union about how we all felt we were being punished and watched while the problem people were still doing what they do.

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  4. Richard Hershberger*

    The arrival time discussion is very much like the RTO discussion. In both, face time is used as a proxy for productivity. The problem is that it is a terrible proxy. The message being conveyed is that management hasn’t a clue how to measure actual productivity. Worse, the proxy can be faked, faithfully showing up on time every day and spending the day screwing around while looking busy.

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    1. I Have RBF*

      This.

      I spend decades in a presence based office. I have seen countless people arrive early, stay late, and do nearly nothing.

      Proximity in NOT a proxy for productivity, unless the job is literally “being present” – like a door greeter.

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    2. Psammead*

      It’s the same kind of blinkered thinking that makes it somehow virtuous to sleep from 10pm-6am, but lazy to sleep from 2am-10am. That OKs flex schedules to work 7am-3pm to “beat the traffic” but not 10am-6pm. It’s all rooted in nonsense for what a worker should look like and how they should behave and nothing to do with actual output and results.

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      1. oranges*

        It’s also a nice dose of patriarchy.
        Women are most often the default parent, so it’s a LOT easier for the men in my office to arrive exactly at 8 and leave at 5. They aren’t dealing with the million kid variables that can make mornings/afternoons unpredictable from time to time.

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        1. partriarch?*

          It is very stereotypic to claim the women are default parents, even though statistically mothers get the kids more often in divorce. In traditional families, it is not a rule that mothers solely handle kid issues in the morning – I have found much more common that fathers bring the kids to daycare than mothers. Typically, they take care of all related morning routines.

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          2. AAM (Taylor's Version)*

            It is a stereotype…because it’s true? In 2 parent heterosexual households in the US, it is still very much the case that women handle the kids, along with other unpaid household work.

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          3. anonymous anteater*

            It wasn’t meant to be normative (that is how it should be) but just descriptive (that is the current reality).

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      2. green beans*

        yes. at my old job, people were constantly complaining about my schedule (10-6) because it looked like I didn’t do anything.

        All of my work was public. It was really easy to tell when my productivity dropped. leadership constantly casually checked in on my work. and my workplace was a little on the early side, so the place was usually cleared out by 4, which meant I got two hours of quiet office time every day. and because my work was public, it often got publicly praised. when I got the feedback, I always asked if someone had not been able to get ahold of me when they needed me. nope. they just didn’t like seeing me come in “late.”

        also I was insanely productive. I do think part of the problem was that I made the work look easy. it wasn’t. it wasn’t crazy hard, either – just a normal workload. but people – that I didn’t work with! – had a real issue with me coming in late. I finally said I could not come in at all and that would solve the problem (we allowed fully remote work). They stopped bringing it up after that.

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        1. bananners*

          If it weren’t for your comment about being fully remote, I would think you were my former co-worker. On at least a weekly basis, people would ask me (her closest co-worker both physically and subject-matter) where she was. Every time – I mean EVERY TIME – I would respond “She usually comes in around 10 or 10:30.” They would roll their eyes and huff. They didn’t need her. They just wanted to point out that she wasn’t in at 8 like everyone else. But her work was excellent, no one else did the job she did (or anything like it), and the CEO (her boss) didn’t care.

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        2. Disappointed with the Staff*

          I had that for an in-office job. My team leader worked the 10am(ish) to 6pm schedule, I worked 7am to 3pm. They were really unhappy that I was skiving off early every day and made comments about it to senior management.

          One of whom casually stopped by just after 7am one day to say that my start and end times had been brought up in management meetings. He wanted to make sure I knew that I could start as early as 6am which would mean leaving at 2pm.

          Message received and understood! I started at 6am most days for the next couple of weeks :)

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  5. Honoria Lucasta*

    There’s an additional element to the all-cotton clothing choices that Alison didn’t mention: wrinkles. Polyester doesn’t wrinkle as much as cotton does, which is one reason I think it shows up so much in clothing that’s coded as “higher status.” Linen also wrinkles, and it is also coded as a more casual fabric (usually with a more relaxed cut) even though it can be deployed in more upscale ways. OP4 might need to spend more time ironing their clothes than someone wearing polyester would in order to achieve the same level of polish.

    I wanted to add by way of expansion on the “drape” question that t-shirts are usually made from a heavier weight (thicker) fabric. If OP4 is wearing heavy cotton fabric, that could contribute to the impression that their tops are t-shirts rather than professional wear.

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    1. Glitsy Gus*

      I also think her coworker is a bit of a snob.

      Broadcloth (what men’s dress shirts are made from) really doesn’t wrinkle all that badly during normal wear. Plenty of cotton knits can be structured enough to not look casual and don’t wrinkle much at all. That said, a clean, mid-weight cotton T-shirt in a solid or simple stripe can look perfectly fine with a pair of dressier pants and a structured cardigan in most corporate casual offices.

      I wouldn’t suggest the T shirt you got for finishing the 5K last week would be the best idea in a more formal office, but I wear plain Madewell T shirts with black pants to work all the time and they look fine. Just take them out of the rotation if they start to fade or lose their shape.

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    2. Always Tired*

      Also knit v. woven. T-shirts are generally made from a knit cotton or cotton/poly blend. Woven material of a similar weight will drape differently due to the structure of the fabric. I also have been transitioning my wardrobe to natural fibers (and ethical sourcing, the combination of which is not cheap) and wear a lot of cotton gauze and poplin. Gauze does look rather casual if you don’t dress it up with layers and accessories, but the poplin is a much stiffer fabric and resists wrinkles pretty well, so I wear that or a silk top for more formal days. Quince carries some decent cotton poplin button up shirts, for example.

      If OP4 is worried about looking unprofessional (which is dumb and lame, we should be able to be comfortable), look for tight weaves, and remember an outfit is more than shirt and pants. Accessories and layers can really elevate your look.

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    3. an academic*

      She also said her coworker was European. My impression is that in most place in Europe, women’s fashion is policed much more heavily, and there is more pressure for women to dress to impress. (I mean, how many Americans can say that they’ve never worn a T-shirt *in their life*?) She might be semi-upset that you’ve managed to make it this far into a professional career while being so “unprofessional,” ie without following the fashion rules she’s been made to follow.

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      1. knitted feet*

        Oh some places in Europe definitely have Stuff around women’s appearance (well, where doesn’t? But you know what I mean). But I’m pretty sure this lady was an outlier for Europe too.

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    4. Middle Managing Cog*

      As an older GenXer I’m finding this conversation about how polyester clothing is “higher status” absolutely hilarious, because its the reverse of what I grew up with.
      I’m just grossed out by so much of the “career wear” available for women, especially in larger sizes, because its all plastic, and what’s not plastic is rayon, and I can practically hear my grandparents in my head about “tacky polyester suits.”

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      1. WS*

        Yes, it’s bizarre! I remember hoping that one day I’d make enough money to be able to afford nice quality natural fibre clothing and not have to suffer in my dreadful polyester jacket and pants.

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      2. Tiny Soprano*

        I think it’s also a matter of lost laundry arts. Cotton lawn, poplin or shirting that’s been starched and ironed well looks crisp and clean in a way that poly can’t simulate, and will actually stay that way unless you’re moving a heap. My dad could iron for his country and knows his way around a starch spray, and his cotton shirts looked pristine even after cycling to and from work in them.

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    5. Ms. Eleanous*

      I found Brooks Brothers cotton wrinkle free shirts really are wrinkle free.

      OP, My mom was the same way about natural fabrics- not for the environment, but for the way polyester acrylic etc felt on her skin.

      I think knitted/ stretch fabrics can look more casual, and some people take the collar/ no collar thing quite seriously.

      Not sure how your colleague thought he was fashionable enough to be fashion police.

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  6. Burnt Out Librarian*

    “People should be on-time,” and then they proceed to redefine on-time as early.

    … This is why younger generations don’t like working for y’all. Say what you mean. “I expect you ten minutes early.” At which point, your workers should expect to either get paid for that extra 50 minutes a week or leave 10 minutes early. If your response to that is “well ten minutes is no big deal” (they will not be paid for that extra time) then you disprove your own rule about earliness. If your response is “but I need every minute of your 8 hour shift” (they can’t leave at 4:50), then you insinuate that ten minutes ahead of their shift is not of value to their own lives.

    Stop acting entitled to your workers’ time and energy. You get what you pay for, so pay for it or stop demanding things. Your attitude is not only out of date and out of line, it’s disrespectful of your employees as human beings. How is this so hard for people?

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    1. Sloanicota*

      Yeah it’s totally fair not to be cool with employees rolling up 20 minutes late as a matter of course, although if people are routinely staying late or working nights / weekends you should probably be flexible. It’s also not cool to expect people to be 10 minutes early unpaid as a matter of course just because you think it looks better.

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      1. Kelmarander*

        And you don’t know what people are going through…. I have a sleep disorder that makes it difficult for me to wake up some mornings. Fortunately I work in a position in which my results are valued over the content of my time cards, so my managers have been supportive and understanding, provided I don’t leave people wondering on my whereabouts, I don’t miss client meetings, and I don’t let tasks slip. As long as I do my job and I work my 8 hours, it shouldn’t matter if I arrive at 8:05 or 8:30.

        The way I see it, your “punctuality” could be tone-deaf also—to me, you look like you leave too early while I’m still plugging away. Your employees will focus their performance on what you show them care about, and I’d much rather have them care about delivering on our mission than whether they’ve hung up their coats early.

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    3. CrochetFrog*

      That reminds me of a director I had early in my career – she told us we had to show up 10 minutes early in order to be at our desks and ready to answer calls at 8am. Sure, fine, we were a support desk, so it makes sense that we need to ensure the coverage. But she also wouldn’t let us leave earlier than 5pm, and our lunch break couldn’t exceed the time limit, no matter what. So when we asked if we would be compensated for that extra 50 minutes a week, she hemmed and hawed about it. Our employment agreements said 40 hours a week – so why do we have to give that extra time to her? We weren’t going to be compensated, in either time or money. If the work required that we be ready to answer calls at 8am, then our work hours should include the 10-15 minutes to get ready to answer calls at 8am and be adjusted accordingly. The question of phone coverage could be easily solved by staggering shifts – we were a specialty support desk at a small college, there was never, ever a time when all of us were tied up at the same time. Our customers (mostly faculty), rarely called us after 4pm. We even had people who would have loved to work slightly earlier or slightly later than 8-5 and volunteered to do so, and it could have increased our coverage without mandating that everyone give unpaid time to our organization. But she kept insisting on it, and never gave us a straight answer about being compensated for that time. The closest she got was “You should just want to do it”. Uh, no.

      And that’s one of the many reasons I only worked there a couple of years!

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      1. A. Tiskit & A. Taskit LLC*

        And that company should have “just want(ed)” to pay you for the extra 50 minutes you were expected to be on the job! Time theft is time theft even when it’s (A) on the part of the parsimonious company and (B) even when it’s only 50 minutes.

        They’re zealously monitoring every minute that YOU take for lunch? Then you can zealously monitor every minute that you work for nothing!

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      2. Disappointed with the Staff*

        I worked in a food factory where this was explicit (and paid!) Shifts started 15 minutes before the hour and people clocked in straight off the street. We had 15 minutes to change into the white overalls and white gumboots required in the factory, go through boot wash etc, and get to our place in the factory.

        Clocking off was the reverse, making for either 8.5 hour or 12.5 hour shifts.

        Tea breaks were a whole other thing. We had a designated ‘break area’ inside the clean part of the factory where food and drink was provided because it just wasn’t practical to exit the clean zone for a 10 minute break. Usually a biscuit and a cuppa. Lunches were out through the boot wash but keep overalls on.

        (also, the perks from working in a food factory are often awesome. There’s either product cheap/free, or a test kitchen, or just samples from downstream customers. “all the frozen roux you can eat” isn’t quite the same perk as “sadly this pallet of frozen pasta bake can’t be sold. If only someone would take as many as they wanted so we don’t have to pay to dump it”)

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        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          THIS is how start/end times should work, when it matters.

          Bonus for the supplied tea breaks (I love me some free food).

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        2. TeacherTurnedNurse*

          This is how it’s worked in every nursing job I’ve held – we clock in directly at 6:45 or 5:45 or whatever but we aren’t “late” until 7:01 or 6:05 for example. So we feet paid for that time, always.

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    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      There’s also a factor of how “being exactly on time” instead of “about on time” can involve a higher level of time investment on the employee’s part, even if it’s not directly spent at the office.

      I commuted by train for several years to a desk job with no customer interaction. I could either take the reasonable train, which would have me at my desk right at 9:00 if it was on time but was often more like 9:05-9:10, or wake up 15 minutes earlier for the prior train, which would mean I would be 10-15 minutes early every day. While it wasn’t stipulated I had to be in the office for that time, it effectively extended my already substantial commute time by an hour and 15 minutes a week.

      I didn’t get to leave before 5 regardless, and there was literally no reason to care about 9:00 other than my manager was paranoid about the CEO’s twice yearly all-office email that said “our hours are 9-5” because some higher managers would regularly waltz in at 10 or 10:30.

      The stress and investment of trying to make it in by exactly 9am when it didn’t in any practicality matter was definitely a factor in my quitting.

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    5. Velawciraptor*

      I think it’s also worth noting that the LW is talking about colleagues, not people who are reporting to her. Alison’s advice needed a healthy dose of “mind your business” for the busybody.

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    6. AnonORama*

      Agree 100%. I am definitely grateful for my flexible job without this kind of nit-picking silliness.

      However, and I know this is slightly off topic, but I’m not sure where we got “younger generations” not wanting to work for “y’all” which I assume is “older generations.” Did this OP mention their age or the age of the workers in question? They asked if something was out of date, which doesn’t necessarily mean they are older themselves.

      I love AAM, but sometimes it seems like everything turns into a generational debate. There’s no evidence this is an age thing.

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      1. RunningBird*

        I’m thinking the poster didn’t mean “y’all” as in ‘people who are old/not in younger generations’, but more like ‘younger generations of people don’t want to work for people who micromanage time to this agree and don’t acknowledge/accept any flexibility at all’, which is true.

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      2. WS*

        Yes, my millennial manager asked me if we could get everyone to come in 10 minutes early so they’d be ready to start at 9 because she was anxious when people got there just in time, I said sure, if we pay them for that 10 minutes and that was the end of that.

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    7. Not on board*

      Tradionally, people needed time to hang up their coat, hit the washroom, grab a coffee, etc before they start working. And the employer always felt that you should do those things on your own time.

      As a recent letter commented – there are those people who need time to get into the right headspace before they start working – in which case, they should absolutely be coming in early. Whatever time you come in, a couple minutes early, or right on the dot. You should be working immediately – not starting at 8am and then taking half an hour to get settled.

      While I agree with your comment generally – you come across as hostile and militant in the same way the 10-minute early sticklers come across.

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      1. Required*

        But this kind of attitude also assumes that people are actively working 100% of the time they’re at work, meaning no going to the bathroom in the middle of the day, no communicating to peers in any way about anything outside of relevant work topics, no time to get up and stretch/quickly walk for a few minutes to get over sitting at your desk for hours at a time, not rearranging your desk to be more productive, etc.

        If you can honestly say that you’ve ALWAYS worked 100% of the time without taking any sort of personal break (even for a few minutes), then I guess you can hold this attitude. Otherwise, if the person is productive and meets expectations, I don’t see the issue. They’re still at work and getting their tasks done.

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      2. I Have RBF*

        When I was in the office, I was never “on the dot”. I was always +/- 10 minutes, depending on traffic. Unless I had a meeting that started exactly at my designated arrival time, no one said a word. I was salaried, which meant that I wasn’t “stealing time” if I worked 7.2 hours one day and 9 hours the next. What counted was getting stuff done by the deadline. But once I sat down and started my login, I was working. I would usually log in, start my email sync, lock my screen then go get coffee. By the time I got back, all my email would have synced, and I could start responding to stuff.

        Now that I am remote, I log on +/- 5 minutes of my starting time, and am available for most of the day to answer questions or do stuff. I do usually go AFK for lunch, because otherwise I don’t move around enough.

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      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Hard disagree. First off, “And the employer always…” is a variation on the “we’ve always done things this way” mindset, which isn’t useful. How can we improve if we just keep doing the same thing?

        Second, all skilled work benefits from workers who are thinking about solutions off-the-clock. And, spoiler? Pretty much all work is skilled work.

        Cleaner on a walk: “Oh, hm, have we tried white vinegar to get rid of that persistent smell?”
        Mechanic in the shower: “Oh, you know what I bet that grinding noise is coming from…”
        Factory worker trying to fall asleep: “Ooo, I bet if we changed up XYZ, that would reduce the hand-off time between Stage A and B…”

        So, we’re working even when we’re “not working”; the logic that we have to start work on the dot just because is laughable.

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    8. ElliottRook*

      100% this. If the shift starts at 9 but you expect me in the building at 8:45, then the shift starts at 8:45. I will be paid for every minute I am in the building. If you want to pay me for an hour and fifteen minutes of overtime every week, or you’re good with me leaving 15 minutes early every day…sure, I guess. But my time is valuable to me and it’s already pretty shitty that people are expected to commute for free, that’s time that they’re signing away to the company, too. (For me it’s over four hours a week and I’m driving, so it’s not like I can reclaim it by reading/etc.)

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  7. Mad Scientist*

    Re: the colleague who has apparently never worn a t-shirt in her life… My god, woman, live a little! Does she never do chores around the house? Yardwork? Exercise…?

    It would be one thing if she had said she’d never worn one to work, but never in her life? Why is that something to be proud of??

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    1. Juicebox Hero*

      Reminds me of a contestant on Project Runway maybe 20 years ago, who Did Not Wear Jeans or Sneakers. She wore jodphurs and riding boots for “casual” instead.

      She wasn’t a horse person, didn’t own a horse, or ride horses. No one has to wear jeans if they don’t want to, but lord she was precious about it.

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      1. Hannah Lee*

        Plus, as someone who used to ride a lot, there are times when I was very glad to have been wearing jeans when riding (even though jodphurs, riding pants might allow a greater comfortable range of motion)

        Denim can be incredibly protective when on trail rides riding through brush or you get thrown/ fall off onto sticks, stones, pavement, or old rakes some dope in the barn left around prong side up. (That last one I fell on hard enough to cause a little indent in my leg that last a few minutes, but not a scratch on my skin or even a hole in the fabric) I would have required a lot more stitches and tetanus booster shots in my life if I didn’t wear denim doing yard work, barn work, riding.

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  8. No name here*

    I am 10 minutes late nearly every day however I often work 30 minutes or more past when I am supppsed to leave. My boss cares about the quality of my work and that I get it done.

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  9. Beth*

    If a job actually requires someone being at their desk, set up, bathroom used, etc at a specific time–like a receptionist who needs to be at the phone at 9am sharp–then honestly, their shift should start 15 mins before that. A Scrooge-like employer could argue that people should put away their coat and use the bathroom before their shift starts, but most jobs need a little setup at the beginning of the day, to login to the system and tidy your desk and check your email and look at your to do list and etc. And, yes, there should be a little leeway built in. Even the most punctual person can get caught in unusually bad traffic or take a few extra minutes to navigate a slippery parking lot.

    If the job duties don’t require that kind of firm start time, then this is just a power trip on the manager’s part. Judging people for being 10 minutes late is counterproductive if it’s irrelevant to their job duties–focus on their work output and stop worrying about the nitpicky details.

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    1. Sara without an H*

      +1. I used to run a small library. My only inflexible rule on start times was that a somebody sentient needed to have the lights on and the computers up and running as soon as we opened the doors for the public in the morning. I had one librarian who always volunteered to come in early to open, in exchange for leaving early, which worked out fine.

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    2. Atlantis*

      I used to work at a retail job where we worked 8 hour shifts, staggered, so we always had at least two staff members opening and closing. We had a half hour unpaid lunch to take as well. My boss wanted to make sure his (generally young) staff were both on time and paid for their full shift, so he instituted an additional fifteen minutes added at the beginning and end of the shift. If you worked 9-5, you actually were supposed to be there by 8:45, and stay till 5:15. But you were paid for that time. It made everyone happy – we got paid for the time we worked, folks were actually ready to go when their shift actually started, and if you had an extra minute or two late cause of traffic or what not, it was fine as long as you were there by the time your shift actually started and you were ready to go.

      This system worked for all of us. We were a lot more willing to help out without worrying about minute to minute stuff cause we were getting paid for it, we were generally all on time and ready to go, and our boss was happy with our timing and productivity. We had the occasional late arrival due to circumstances (traffic, etc) but since we were scheduled to arrive “early” it was usually not an issue, and when it was the boss dealt with the pattern on an individual level, and didn’t get on all of us for one persons actions.

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    3. Winter*

      Yes. I run a coverage-based not for-profit educational service and we have strict regulatory requirements for staff ratios. Staff are paid hourly and overtime is paid beyond an 8 hour shift. We open at 7, but the opening shift is 6.45-2.45 to give those staff time to get settled and prepared for the day.

      However in my sector generally this is unusual. Most services will only pay from opening time which I think is short-sighted. It adds extra stress and opens up possibilities of wage theft if the manager wants staff in ten minutes before they start. It’s a small investment that makes a big difference.

      General start times are not at all flexible though as colleagues are depending on the next person starting for all kinds of reasons and it can throw the whole day out. I spent 20 years with this hard start time and always struggled (adhd) but managed 95% of the time. Now I can be more flexible as Director, but I work much longer hours. The flexibility is worth it though!

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    4. Disappointed with the Staff*

      Bike shop I work in on weekends pays someone to come in at least half an hour early to get the shop ready to go exactly on the dot. Or a few minutes early the other 90% of the time when there’s someone standing outside the door wanting something.

      Their summer hours can get pretty wild, they push the opening time back until either no-one is willing to start work that early or there’s no customers waiting for them to open. Last summer it was 6am weekdays, 7am weekends. If customers are paying for the time I’m happy enough, and it’s a useful point of difference for the shop.

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  10. Liz the Snackbrarian*

    As a DC area human, summers here are so sticky and hot. Breathable cotton tshirts with a work appropriate skirt are my jam in the summer. I add earrings to dress things up.

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    1. Juicebox Hero*

      I’m in PA where we get the same kind of hot humid summers, and same here. I wear nice t-shirts from Land’s End or LL Bean all year round – under sweaters in fall and winter and by themselves during spring, summer, and hot flashes. Never heard a peep from anyone, manager or customer, that they’re inappropriate or unprofessional.

      My favorite summer dress is a bright cotton muumuu that’s so airy and comfortable on sticky days, and I get loads of compliments on it.

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    2. Jazzy*

      Never underestimate the power of earrings to “dress things up”. I wear a lot of big flashy earrings, it can totally elevate even just t-shirt and jeans to A Whole Look. Especially if they’re unique. I make my own with polymer clay and resin so I’ve got a different pair for every outfit basically haha.

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    3. Yaya*

      There’s an amazing account on TikTok who shows how to do this and I’ve been impressed at what she does with just a few basics, the right kind of shirt tuck, and some nice jewellery! It’s inspired me to dress up my casual clothes a lot more. Her handle is ‘AYSAT’.

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  11. LawLady*

    I feel like most professional jobs in 2025 require some degree of flexibility from the employee, and that should mean some degree of flexibility from the employer. I showed up at 10 this morning. I also took a call with an Australian client at 6 pm last night. I would be livid if my manager tried to penalize me for being “late”. How incredibly infantilizing.

    I wonder if this letter writer agrees that when 5 pm strikes, his employees should set down their work and walk out, regardless of what they’re in the middle of. If not, and he expects them to complete their work before leaving, he’s being unreasonable.

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  12. Zona the Great*

    Whoa! Not just on time but 10 minutes early so our butts hit our seats at the exact second the clock strikes the hour?

    I once had a similarly-minded boss at a bank who said I had to show up 10 minutes early to set up my till before I clocked in at my start time. I argued that, no, the bank needs to pay me to set up my till and therefore I will only start pulling said till at the moment I clock in. If they needed to stagger our arrival with our colleagues’ departure, then that’s on them.

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    1. My coffee. Mine.*

      I’m now imagining an office full of people hovering over their chairs all staring at the clock, then dropping down to hit the seats in unison at precisely 8:00:00 am…

      Reply ↓
      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I mean, sitting in a squat position/chair pose each and every morning is one way to get buns of steel…

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  13. aarti*

    I don’t care about being here exactly on time. It’s way more important to me to see you get your work done, and since we work with volunteers, be flexible to volunteers’ time schedule. If your work is that much better because you roll in between 915 and 930 930 than 9 than why the hell am i making you come in at 9 and be miserable? Other things are far more important. Also if you do need to do something at 9 and can do it at home, do it at home!

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  14. Caramel & Cheddar*

    In my experience, people are not that good at identifying fibre content without reading a label, and wouldn’t be able to tell a 100% cotton tee from one made of bamboo jersey or a poly-cotton blend, etc. I feel like Polyester Coworker was probably commenting more on the cut of the shirt than what it was made of, so while that’s something to pay attention to in terms of whether or not tees are professional in your workplace, I wouldn’t worry that cotton itself is inherently unprofessional.

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    1. doreen*

      I’m almost certain that cotton isn’t actually the problem – and to be honest, I’m sort of wondering if that colleague was really wearing head-to-toe polyester. Only because there are so many fabrics that are neither cotton nor polyester and the letter didn’t seem to acknowledge that and as you said, most people wouldn’t be able to tell if it was polyester just by looking. I try very hard not to wear synthetic fabrics – but a silk T shirt looks different from a cotton T shirt while a bamboo T shirt might look just as informal as a cotton one and I’m sure polyester T shirts exist that look just like cotton. A lot of time what matters for professionalism is the style, whether it’s knit or woven, the weight of the fabric and sometimes the color. I had a coworker who had a habit of wearing white cotton T shirts – they appeared to literally be the almost see-through ones sold as men’s undershirts in a package of 6 for $20 and she got some side-eye that she wouldn’t have gotten if it was a heavier cotton and/or a different color.

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      1. EchoGirl*

        The original letter also included some slightly harsher language about the coworker’s polyester fashion choices (don’t want to link because moderation, but search “should I try to steal my old coworker’s job, are cotton clothes less professional, and more”). The conclusion in a lot of the comments was that OP might be interpreting the coworker’s comment through a bit of a skewed lens/assuming everyone paid as much attention to materials as OP did.

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        1. EchoGirl*

          Hit send too soon — basically, the question was, was the coworker actually making the comment at OP, or was she just talking about her own fashion choices in general and OP incorrectly interpreted it as a pointed barb at them?

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  15. Funbud*

    At my corporate job (I’m now retired) there was an older Boomer VP who had a fetish about employees being on time. when we move to a new office building, he selected the office with the best view of the employee entrance. Though he denied it when kidded about it, we all knew he was monitoring arrivals and departures and reporting them to someone(HR?) who probably didn’t care a hoot.
    At his retirement a few years before mine he also lamented that we hadn’t gone back to wearing suits and ties in the office. This in a consumer products company where 98% of the staff had no contact with clients or the public.

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  16. Llama Llama*

    Ever since I had a ‘real’ job, when I got in didn’t really matter as long as I worked my hours (when I worked hourly) and worked core hours. Even the core hours thing has mostly gone away.

    As long as people aren’t directly responsible for timely things (like serving customers/delivering a report that has to come out at a specific time) then it shouldn’t matter if they get to work 30min-hour differently than your coworkers.

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  17. Artistic Impulses*

    Yes, you are being shortsighted and old-fashioned to care this much about such strict timeliness for your employees.

    As long as they are not excessively late on a regular basis, it really should not matter in most cases. More important is their productivity.

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  18. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    Here’s my 2 cents about the lateness at work. I often get stopped on the way into my office, so I figure I “start” work once I get onto my university campus. This way if I have to help a student find their classroom or whatever, I am still getting paid. It’s just a few minutes, but why should I get docked for helping someone, which is part of my job. Luckily I have amazing bosses that are not micromanaging.

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    1. Tiny Soprano*

      Oh I feel you on this one as a fellow campus worker. If you walk around a uni campus with any kind of purpose, or are over the age of 30, you’ll get stopped and asked where classes are. Or where they can find their lost airpods.

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  19. Teapot, Groomer of Llamas*

    The first one confuses me. They define “on time” as being there 10 minutes before the hour and then complain about people being there 10-20 minutes late. So do they mean people actually showing up on time and not early?

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  20. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

    Also, in many fields (such as tech) actual T-shirts are acceptable office wear for everyone below the C suite. I just set aside a particularly geeky T-shirt so I could make sure to wear it at the next cameras-on meeting!

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    1. Oniya*

      I worked one tech job where we would frequently receive T-shirts, ball caps, mugs and other branded things. One year, it was even a particularly nice jacket for breaking a company record.

      I still wear/use them from time to time.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        A couple years ago for the holidays my company gave us a choice of lightly branded jackets for the annual gift. This last year we got a nice stainless steel coffee mug. I love my jacket as winter wear.

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    2. Disappointed with the Staff*

      You can spot the boss where I work because he wears *polo* shirts! Such a high standard but luckily he doesn’t expect us to rise to his level.

      We do have a rule about offensive words on t shirts though. You can wear your heavy metal or cartoon t shirt, but not the FCUK one.

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  21. No Tribble At All*

    OP, if you need people to be ready to start work at a specific time for coverage/shift reasons, you need to start their clock 15-30 minutes before handover time. When I worked twelves, we formally handed over at 7:30, and we were expected to be in office ready to go at 7:15. I had a coworker who would get in early because he gave himself so much margin for traffic, and then he would complain because I (lived 15 minutes away) didn’t also get in at 6:45.

    We also typically texted each other if handover was going to be crazy to try and get in early.

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  23. Tradd*

    Wow, do people get their knickers in a twist about having to be on time for work! Are you also late for doctor’s appts, important personal social events, etc? This came up a couple of weeks ago with the Gen Z thread as well as a thread in the following Friday open thread. There are a lot more jobs than just office jobs that pretty much allow you to come and go as you wish. Even jobs that would be considered as professional, such as librarians, teachers, etc., have hours they have to be at work. Would you like the library to open late because the person opening wanted to sleep in 30 minutes more or your kid’s teacher be habitually late to class? There are more jobs out there than white collar office jobs. The commenters here often seem to forget that.

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    1. Owl*

      …What? First you say there are more jobs that allow you to come and go, then you say there are more jobs that require you to be on time. While the commentariat here skews towards office jobs (because those are the people in front of computers during the “workday,” looking to kill time), every discussion regarding lateness includes the caveat that some jobs DO require people to be on time, and those that don’t shouldn’t require it unnecessarily. There is never a blanket statement that “no one should have to be on time ever for any job” nor “everyone should be on time always no matter what.” It depends on the role.

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    2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      I think this all the time- I work in a manufacturing plant and we allow a grace period of 15 minutes to clock in without repercussions, but really, we do need everyone here to be at the start of their shift. We need people in the building, ready to work, so that the machines are run properly and there is adequate coverage. Unfortunately, we all can’t be “flexible” like that- we have to have people in the door and ready to go when the shift begins.

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    3. Amber*

      Doctors appointments and meeting people have a *reason* for them to be there on time. Starting an office job does not. So why care? To be controlling and to impose your values on someone else are the reasons I’ve come up with. Do you have a better one?

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      1. Allonge*

        There are office jobs and office jobs though. Sure, there are many where the 10 minute delay makes no difference. But there are others, not yet in the ‘coverage’ category where multiple people are needed for certain functions or a manager rightly prefers some predictability in when people will show up. Which is why very often offices with flexitime will set core hours.

        I am not saying that 10 minutes delay should be monitored if the jobs are truly independent of each other! But “office job” is a large category, and people on this board tend to generalise from very non-collaborative jobs to practically anything.

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    4. Parakeet*

      I think people are disputing the idea that “on time” is even a meaningful concept in many jobs. Obviously it is in some (e.g. highly coverage-based jobs), and there’s also many where it’s sometimes meaningful and sometimes not (if I’m running a training at or have an appointment at 9am, then I need to be ready to go at 9am! but if I’m spending the morning, say, doing focused writing, then how is “on time” even a relevant notion?). The examples you give are all appointments (and also they’re occasional).

      Every discussion we have on this topic has people complaining about how white-collar office workers just don’t understand, juxtaposed with a bunch of white-collar office workers bending over backwards to make sure it’s clear that they do understand that there are types of jobs where total flexibility doesn’t work.

      This isn’t a white-collar vs blue/pink-collar thing either. I’ve known people in blue-collar trades who have to be on time to appointments with customers, but have great flexibility in setting the times of those appointments (and their schedules in general). I previously worked a pink-collar job where everyone had coverage-based days and non-coverage-based days (and days with and without appointments in varying numbers and at varying times of day), with a rotating schedule. So I had flexibility on some days and not others. Meanwhile, as you point out, there are white-collar jobs (and office-based pink-collar jobs) where timing flexibility is limited to non-existent.

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    5. Sometimes Late*

      Of course there are some jobs that require people to be on time? No one is disputing that. What we’re talking about here are managers that require people to be on time/early unnecessarily when it doesn’t impact the employee’s performance or anyone else.

      That said, I’m a librarian and my work day starts at 8:30. The library doesn’t open until 9. If I’m 5-10 minutes late (which I am often, because life happens), that doesn’t impact the library opening at all.

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      1. LibraryLiz*

        I came here to say the same thing. My shift starts an hour before the library opens for the day. My director has stated she does not care if we get here 10-15 minutes late, as long as everything that needs to be done is done before we open.

        Where I live traffic is unpredictable. I could leave my house one morning at 8:30 and get to work at 9:55, and the next day arrive at 9:10 because of traffic. No rhyme or reason to it. That flexibility has really helped with my sanity on those mornings when I am stuck in traffic.

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        1. Regina Philange*

          I also work in a library and our system is very unforgiving – the morning shift starts at 9, except that’s when we open. So you really have to be 10 minutes early but we’re not getting paid for that 10 minutes. We’ve been arguing that our shifts should start half an hour before we have to have on the desk, but we still have an actual (computer-based, but still) punch clock, and if you don’t punch in at exactly the time you’re scheduled, you get docked. So you’re supposed to punch exactly at 9 while also opening the doors and turning on the computers that we didn’t do ten minutes prior because we’re not getting paid for that time. It’s madness.

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    6. Eukomos*

      Most social events I go to build in at least a half an hour of “doors are open but the show hasn’t started” “apps are out but the host doesn’t think you’ll be there yet” etc. Doctor’s appointments, like meetings, I’m slightly early for, because the time is very tightly budgeted in both cases. Basically I consider the reality of the situation and act accordingly.

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    7. another anon*

      It’s a lot easier to get to the doctor’s office a bit early (to provide a buffer) once a month or less than every day, especially since that usually doesn’t mean first thing in the morning, it means something like 9:45 for a 10:00 appointment. Also, if I get to the doctor’s office 20 minutes early, I can sit quietly reading until the doctor or nurse is ready to see me.

      From another angle, I care that the doctor is ready to see me on time, or close to on time, barring emergencies. However, I don’t care what time of day the staff handles paperwork, or whether the radiologist takes a little longer before looking at a routine scan.

      The question isn’t whether someone needs to be there in time to open the library or the drugstore–the question is whether everyone needs to be there before the drugstore opens. If it’s important to have a pharmacist and two technicians on duty in the pharmacy at 9 a.m. sharp, it’s worth paying for that ten- or fifteen-minute buffer.

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  24. Sneaky Squirrel*

    If the job requires someone to be available at 9am sharp then the expectation should be that those employees have already done their bathroom, coat, etc before that point. But where a little flexibility can be given, it’s better for morale and retention to give it. An employee that shows up 10 minutes late but produces excellent work is more valuable than an employee who follows a rigid 9-5 schedule but produces a mediocre product.

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  25. duinath*

    i think you hit the nail on the head with the cost of cotton. a lot of “more professional” polyesters are imitating expensive fibers like silk or wool.

    natural fibers will usually give a better result imo, i can’t stand the smell and static of polyester, but natural fibers are more work. cotton and linen need to be ironed (the casual crumple of linen will not work in most formal environments) and wool and silk need to be handwashed and laid flat to dry.

    it’s the old “this implies i pay someone to do this for me”, but also btw i think the tshirt comment was just rude and lw should not be taking etiquette tips from her.

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    1. XX*

      Came to the comments to say exactly that about what polyester is mimicking. You can get very smooth, professional-looking cotton shirts, they just have to be woven instead of knit, and a good deal thicker than your usual gauzy blouse.

      I disagree though about how much care you have to take with wool and silk. If you wash a piece on a handwash/delicate cycle, or even just put it in a delicates bag (like a bra bag but bigger) with the rest of your laundry, it should be fine. The bigger issue is machine drying, which is very rough on even the toughest clothes and will take years off the lifespan of anything delicate or elastic.

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      1. Hannah Lee*

        Years ago I read one of those listicle articles in NY Times or Huff post or something, that included tips from a laundry expert. One of the tips was never use the hot setting on your dryer.

        Because not only will that heat setting damage a lot of fabrics, many household good manufactures use less expensive thread, sometimes poly or other synthetics that can’t take that much heat. So even though cotton towels or sheets or t-shirts etc in theory could be dried on higher heat settings without damage, the seams will come apart, buttons, decorations will fall off, etc etc. (and the care tags often are based on the fabric, not the assembly material like thread).

        Ever since then I dry everything on either no-heat or low heat settings. And clothes, towels, bedding have all looked like new and lasted much much longer (no more raggedy edges on towels or unraveling necklines, loose buttons on casual tops)

        Still can’t figure out how to get salad dressing/oil spots of shirts … can’t remember if there was a tip on that (I treat it, wash it, and the oil spot is gone from where it was … but has migrated to somewhere else on the front of the top … it’s like whack a mole with multiple washings until it finally migrates someplace less visible.)

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  26. a name*

    I think this question is impossible to answer without knowing a lot more details about the person’s industry and workplace.

    I imagine there’s a lot of jobs where it’s super important to be on station when the starting bell rings. But in my line, it literally doesn’t matter when or where I do the work, as long as I show up to the important meetings, and my results get delivered by their due date. It would be absolutely bonkers for someone in my office to notice who is or isn’t at their desk, hard at work, by 9am.

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  27. Face Time Freddy*

    I must be missing something. I am in a production environment. I have a certain target I am supposed to hit but I don’t stop working when I hit the target. So if I can produce 3 widgets in the 30 minutes I first arrive, how is it ok that I arrive 30 minutes late and don’t produce those 3 widgets?

    That is not substituting face time for productivity, it is actual productivity that is lost.

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    1. Lola*

      That may be true for you, but a lot of jobs don’t work that way. I write proposals and grants, so my day to day is less focused on productivity than it is meeting hard deadlines/due dates with high quality work.
      I think the larger point is that as long as you’re getting your work done and meeting deadlines/productivity, when you do it is less important.

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      1. Face Time Freddy*

        You may be right but you could be productive during the “late” time as well. So the overall effect is that over the course of a day/week/month/year you are producing less, whether it be widgets, proposals, grants, etc.

        The point is that, by definition. you are getting less work done than your coworker who is there 30 minutes longer every day. And if you’re doing the same amount of work done, then there’s something wrong with the way your coworker does their work.

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        1. Nina*

          Humans do not run at 100% productivity for a whole workday. That just doesn’t happen. You go pee, you look out the window and think about what you’re doing, and maybe you’re mulling over work while you’re fully offsite getting coffee or on your commute, and maybe you scroll your phone for five minutes while you’re clocked in.

          Any kind of creative work (including writing grant proposals) is something you can’t just bang out at a set rate per minute. Your brain (the tool you’re using to do that) works how it works, and sitting at your desk writing trash because your brain isn’t in gear is less productive than getting up, getting a drink, and coming back ready to focus.

          If you’re expecting people to never ever ever be less than 100% productive every second they’re at work, I’m sorry, but I think you might not have met many people.

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        2. windsofwinter*

          I think you’re missing the fact that some jobs are productivity based, some jobs are availability based, some jobs are task based, and there are probably more that I’m missing. In short, all jobs aren’t the same. In one of my former jobs, I had to be available during certain hours to take customer phone calls. I also had other tasks to do during my day, but I couldn’t just leave once I finished them because I still needed to be available to answer the phone. It was not uncommon for me to completely finish my necessary tasks for a given day before my eight hours were done. There were no more “widgets” to produce in that case. My current job is very collaborative. I have certain projects I do myself, but I’m also often waiting for others to do something before I can proceed. I’m not actively producing every hour of my workday. It’s simply not possible.

          You also seem to be under the assumption that every person works at the exact same rate, which is just silly. Some people do a task more slowly than others. Those same people may do a different task twice as quickly as others. This doesn’t mean anything is wrong with a given employee. We’re humans, not robots. And even so, I once worked in a factory and I know robots aren’t always totally in sync and operating at peak efficiency.

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        3. Le Sigh*

          “You may be right but you could be productive during the “late” time as well. So the overall effect is that over the course of a day/week/month/year you are producing less, whether it be widgets, proposals, grants, etc.

          The point is that, by definition. you are getting less work done than your coworker who is there 30 minutes longer every day.” Not if you just make up the time by staying a 30 min longer that day or the next. I realize you can’t do it in every job but that’s what many people do.

          “And if you’re doing the same amount of work done, then there’s something wrong with the way your coworker does their work.” Also not true — everyone’s brains work differently and most of my coworkers jobs/days/schedules are different from mine. The way my job work, time spent on something isn’t a great metric for how effective you are.

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        4. Le Sigh*

          Also I’ve had many coworkers who were always perfectly on time — some were effective in their jobs, and some were great at burning up time but not really accomplishing much. They were great at appearing effective without being so. I’d really rather have someone who shows up 10-30 min late but works late to make up for it, and puts in the time to do the job well.

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        5. constant_craving*

          Not really. There’s been lots of research to show that longer days are actually less productive for this kind of work. So one would probably be getting *more* done than the person working 30 minutes more, even though that seems counterintuitive.

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    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Maybe in your job. Not true for all jobs. For salaried employees who are meeting all their targets and expectations, it IS a proxy (and a poor one at that) for productivity.
      Any time an employer requires something for “optics” alone, they’re missing the point.

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    3. Le Sigh*

      This really depends on how your work environment and job are structured. If I’m 30 min late to work, I just work an 30 min longer later that day to make sure I hit my targets, if needed.

      But my job isn’t structured by daily or even weekly targets. I have a set of annual objectives that I have to hit and I’m responsible for making sure everything in between happens so that I hit those objectives. Some weeks I might work over 40 hours to make sure it all gets done or because I need to respond to a last-minute client need (which doesn’t come with overtime because I’m salaried). Some weeks I might have a lighter schedule, use the “extra” available time to do some housekeeping items I’m behind on — or I might log off a little early that day to give my brain a break, because on the whole, my office is paying for my expertise, my ability to hit my targets, and to an extent, flexibility with my time. If I get nickled and dimed over 30 min on a random Thrs when I know I’m on top of everything, then I’m not going to ever work late or on a weekend again.

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    4. I Have RBF*

      If you produce N widgets per hour, and you work 8 hours, what does it matter when you start? IOTW, if you arrive late, you work late. You make 8 hours worth of widgets. Now, if the place to make those widgets shuts down at a certain time, then yes, being late is a hit to productivity, otherwise, no, it’s not. Example: If I had to produce 10 spreadsheets a day, ready by 8 am the next morning, it would not make a difference whether I did them between 9 am and 5 pm, or Noon and 8 pm – they would still be ready by 8 am the next day.

      If the machinery to make your widgets is only available between 8 am and 5 pm, then you need to be there for 8 of those hours working. If your work requires close collaboration with a group to meet your targets, then everyone needs to be there.

      But if what you do is not bounded by requirements of equipment or personnel availability during certain hours, then being “on time” is not an essential component of the job, you just need to produce N by X date. Most office jobs are not structured like an assembly line, laboratory, food service or retail.

      Reply ↓
    5. No Longer Looking*

      I spent over a decade doing production data entry, and I was very good at it. I never EVER heard a good argument as to why it was ok that I got paid the same amount to enter say 12-20 batches in the same time the average worker entered 8-12 and the poor worker entered 7-9 (minimum required was 8 in that job), and yet was given flak if I slacked off work after hitting not only the minimum daily requirement but also the high average.

      Also, despite that level of production I was indeed fired from more than a couple of those jobs for showing up late. No one cared about anything more than they cared about Butts In Seats – it’s all a power trip. I guarantee that the worker they replaced me with got less done in 8 hours than I would in 6, so it was never about productivity.

      Reply ↓
  28. Addison DeWitt*

    Advertising is a field where people waltz in late and work late. And as long as you’re not blowing off meetings… but I had one boss who wanted to make a point and so he declared that anyone late would be sent home for the day, and three strikes you’re fired. This is Chicago, where timing for work is dependent on the whims of the decaying CTA. People quickly figured if they were not going to make it, to just call out for the day– you were going to be sent home anyway, and a supposed sick day wasn’t punished. People got sick a LOT that week.

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  29. Another Kristin*

    Ah yes, the good old “on time is 10 minutes early” gambit. I’m sure my grandfather agreed with the OP but he has been out of the workforce for 45 years and dead for 18. Time to let this one go!

    Reply ↓
  30. Science_Bear*

    Mis-education about quality fibers is really rampant these days. People think cotton is cheap because fast fashion has brainwashed us into thinking that mass produced synthetic fibers cut to dupe far more expensive garments produced in natural fibers looks “expensive”. The problem is that these are all bad copies of clothing made in wool, silk, linen, and the much derided cotton. You can probably rest easy knowing your wardrobe will last for years, while hers won’t make it out of the season, unless she’s saving her $$$ to buy or thrift quality items made with natural fibers from reputable brands.

    Reply ↓
    1. Flor*

      This! I sew, and I don’t wear synthetics as a general rule. It’s so frustrating for me when I’m buying fabric or notions and cotton is mixed with polyester because the latter is cheaper so it reduces costs. And all the 100% cotton fabric I buy (which is the cheapest; I also buy linen and wool) is more expensive than the polycotton blends.

      And cotton, honestly, is far too versatile to make a blanket statement that cotton is “too casual” for the office. Basic cotton knit t-shirts, sure, but I’d say something like a cotton jersey surplice top is fine for most smart casual offices, or a blouse made of a lightweight, drapey cotton like batiste. And I can’t imagine a workplace where a cotton poplin dress shirt would be unacceptably casual!

      Reply ↓
  31. DramaQ*

    Yes you are out dated. This can actually get a company in big trouble.

    My husband got a check from a company that pulled this. The DOL ruled that if it is a requirement that a person be 10 minutes early to their job or else then the company has to pay those people for that time.

    They back dated that pay AND charged the company some hefty fines.

    Gone are the days where people are expected to put in an extra hour of work for nothing just so they look good to the boss.

    So be careful what you say to your employees and what you demand from them. Most people aren’t terrified of being fired or not getting promoted anymore because we all know the company isn’t loyal to us. All it takes is one phone call about “My manager requires we come in 10 minutes early or face discipline action, but expects us to do it unpaid” and now you’re in the hot seat.

    Reply ↓
  32. Knitting Cat Lady*

    I hate synthetic fibres.
    They have no wick factor at all.
    And it doesn’t matter how much deodorant you use, after a while all synthetic tops will smell like a builder after a full shift in the summer.
    There are ways to mitigate that, but VERY few people know that adding white concentrated vinegar instead of fabric softener will kill smells and make the clothes softer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Actually I think pretty much EVERYONE knows that these days because it’s in alllllllllllll the stupid laundry “hacks” videos.

      Reply ↓
  33. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I wish that reply was working! I hope it gets fixed soon. I think it was Zona the Great that said they had a boss that wanted them to start counting the till before they clocked in. I had a similar experience at a call center. All through training we were told to not even touch the computer until our start time. So when I got out on the call floor I did just that. I found my seat and didn’t start the computer or get anything pulled up until my start time. after a week I got yelled at (actually yelled at not just scolded) for not being ready on time. My team lead had this huge thing that all of her team had a certain score on call times and I was screwing that up by not being on a call at my start time! That place was so toxic I’m glad its gone!

    Reply ↓
  34. Elara Harper*

    After 17 years at my old firm, a new office manager with the “butt in seat working at exactly 8:30” mindset was hired. Never mind that the company had always had flexible hours, never mind that all our benchmarks were billable hours and deliverables, never mind that we were not open to the public without a specific appointment. My own manager told me to ignore her. I put up with the stupid harassment for 6 months, then left -taking 18 years of institutional knowledge with me. I was the first to go. 6 months after that, they’d lost 1/2 of their non-managerial staff, and finally let the office manager go, because their income took a nosedive due to not being able to meet deadlines with inexperienced (but on-time) staff. 10 years later, I’m still swanning in when I need to at their thriving competitor, while original firm is half its former size. So, yes – it is short sighted to hold non-coverage based employees to strict timeliness standards.

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  35. Jackalope*

    Alison, not sure if you’ll see this, but I’m having trouble with the headlines being so close to the graphics and links on the top. It makes them trickier to read. Don’t know if that’s something you can change but putting it out there just in case.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mornington Crescent*

      The heading on the top of the post at the top of the page has disappeared under the sticky header for me completely on mobile.

      Reply ↓
  36. vacationaddict*

    So genuine question, how flexible should a manager be when it comes to report times? If 20 minutes is ok, is 60 or 90 ok? Maybe the whole idea of work hours needs rethinking?

    Reply ↓
    1. Head Sheep Counter*

      Isn’t it really very business need specific? I think consistency should matter more than a group start time (unless the business works with a group start time).

      I can’t imagine a world in which my start time varied by 90 min. Especially without communication (eg there’s a horrible traffic problem or whatever). And if my start time varied I assume my end time would to… but I suspect that isn’t universal and that would cause resentment.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alexis Rose*

      On my team, we have several folks who start at 7, a few who start at 8, I start between 8-9, and several folks who start 9-9:30. We all work our 8 hours, but we start at different times depending on our preference/schedule/etc. Those who start at 7 are done at 3 and those who start at 9 are done at 5. Managers/supervisors are aware and it actually works BETTER in the end because we have people online between 7 and 5 every day.

      If someone has an appointment or is running late, oh well, you just work a little longer that day. We are all adults. The world keeps turning.

      I specifically chose a career where I didn’t need to show up at exactly the right time every day. I’m not a doctor or a teacher or a call-center worker, I’m not opening up a brick and mortar retail store.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        This.

        I started my work life in a lab, then worked on an assembly line and more labs. Then I started doing more office based report writing and some field work where being “on time” was less of an issue. Then I switched fields to computers, and when I could, got out of strict coverage based roles. Now all I have to do is make sure I show up on time for meetings and keep generally core hours, and no one whines about 15 minutes either way.

        I’m senior and salaried now, and my job is mostly answering questions, troubleshooting, and doing out of hours maintenance. My boss isn’t picky about my start time or hours, and in return I’m not picky about night and weekend work for off-hours maintenance.

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  37. Head Sheep Counter*

    I am a stickler for time. Especially in my private life. You tell me a party starts at 4 and I’ll generally be parked outside waiting until its 4 to go to your door… sort of stickler.

    But I concur that if the expectation is that all of the arrival tasks are done before one’s start time… then one should be paid for that 10 min early window. Especially if you told me I need to arrive 10 min early. Show me where I punch in and my butt will be there 10 min early and leave 10 min early (or take an appropriate amount of time at lunch). If that’s unacceptable then welcome to paying small amounts of OT everyday.

    I think its reasonable to want a basically predictable starting time and that the hours provided by the employee be what’s agreed upon (8-4, 9-5 whatever). Predictable is helpful in many business environments. Losing staff because predictable shifts a smidge (10 min is a smidge) would be shortsighted.

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  38. Chairman of the Bored*

    If a boss wanted to manage my start time as strictly as LW does they better be ready for me to walk away in mid-sentence as soon as the clock ticks over to 5:00:01 at the end of the day. I would outright set an alarm on my phone to notify me the instant it’s time for me to stop working.

    I’d also be job hunting, because who wants to put up with that in 2025?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hannah Lee*

      IME the bosses who were the biggest sticklers for in your seat at arbitrary start times were ALSO the ones who habitually happened by my desk 10 minutes before the official end time to talk about some “important” work issue. Or worse, their occasional ‘have to show you relate to the little people’ chit chat about nothing.

      They just expected you to remain until they were done with the conversation (and would have some way of holding it against you if you had to get up an leave before they deemed the conversation finished … kids at day car, needing to catch the bus home, get to night school … none of that mattered to them as much as being able to hold court and dismiss you when they felt like it)
      (the worst was one who would do that and at some point let slip that he liked to stay late at the end of the day, not because of work, but because if he dilly dallied at work, his wife would be headed home before him and not only pick up their child from day care, but also have time to be the one to make dinner for them both, give the kid a bath, them ready for bed and he could swan in to a hot meal and low effort daddy fun time before bed.)

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  39. Another Kristin*

    Also the cotton shirt lady should look for cotton-silk blend fabrics. They look drapey and fancy but are cheaper than 100% silk and are often machine-washable. I also prefer natural fibres (though I’m more into linen than cotton, so much ironing but so comfortable in both winter and summer) and I find these have a more professional look.

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  40. Dinwar*

    “This means getting to work about 10 minutes early in time to hang up a coat, use the bathroom, etc., and be at one’s desk when the hour begins.”

    First, it’s no longer about hanging up one’s coat and using the bathroom. Getting started means finding an open desk in the open office/shared work space, setting up one’s computer, turning it on and waiting twenty minutes while the security software and company-mandated spyware boot up, then actually starting to work. All of which is on the company, NOT the employee.

    In most knowledge-worker jobs it also simply doesn’t matter. Is it really an issue if I show up 20 minutes late and work 20 minutes late, when my work isn’t time-sensitive? Is anyone going to get hurt, or lose money, if I shift my hours a minor amount? The answer is, in most cases, no–and when the answer is yes, everyone’s well aware of it and being on time is clearly spelled out.

    It’s also worth noting that in a lot of cases the company has screwed over the employees. I mentioned open offices and shared work spaces for a reason. These show that the company has no respect for their employees–we’re just interchangeable cogs, insignificant and easily replaceable. This is especially true for folks who used to have offices that now work in noisy, crowded environments with no stability (which can be a huge issue for some of us). You cannot–CANNOT–expect more respect from your employees than you show them.

    Finally, in the modern work environment how do you know I didn’t start working until I showed up? I’ve got two teams in the field starting at 07:00 and am heavily involved in other projects that start at the same time or earlier, in three time zones. If I’m answering phone calls to make sure the work gets done I’M WORKING, whether I’m wearing a suit and tie in an office or jumping out of a shower to answer a phone call. And if I’m answering phone calls to ensure billable work gets done, I’m not overly concerned with the optics of me walking in a bit late (in my office no one even notices, because it’s part of the job). If I’m answering emails while I eat breakfast, I’m working–and everyone but me has their email on their smartphones, so you don’t know that’s not happening. If I get a call at 9 pm and need to scramble to make sure a critical project gets staffed the next day, I’m working.

    The idea that you can identify who’s working by seeing who’s in the office is over. The modern work environment is far more fluid and flexible, some industries more so than others. And companies have abandoned any pretense of respecting their employees; demanding they pay homage to the company by donating time for company-required startup processes is completely unreasonable.

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  41. Elizabeth West*

    #1 — Did Miss Minutes write this letter?

    KIDDING :D

    A lot of people are late because of traffic, dropping off kids, etc. and other things; if they’re getting their work done and they come to meetings on time, then eh. Hourly people often just make up the time at lunch or something — that’s what I do, anyway.

    Others have said face time is not a measure of productivity, and I agree. A coworker I called Phone Allergy at ToxicExJob is a good example. I’m sorry, but if you’re an inside salesperson, talking to your customers is part of your job. I still have no idea what he did all day besides deflecting his calls!

    #3 — There are t-shirts and then there are tops made of cotton jersey or similar with a nice drape and a narrow collar that are essentially t-shirts but don’t look it. If it’s not all wrinkled or faded, then where’s the problem? Throw a blazer over it, slap on a statement necklace, and ignore Snooty Cow-irker.

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  42. Nice is different than good*

    OP1 sounds like the kind of person who gets to a restaurant before they open expecting to be served.

    Reply ↓
  44. TGIF*

    The reply button still isn’t working for me…but that being said I have always arrived early at work. I am a firm believer in having your butt at work on time, period. And I am also the type to be 10 mins early to setup. I can’t stand just jumping into work without some time to get ready and prepare. So yeah being on time is not a bad thing.

    Reply ↓
    1. ElliottRook*

      And some of us can’t stand arriving somewhere early just to sit around and wait for a clock to roll over, or for other people to arrive. Like, I could have been doing my own thing with my own time for those five extra minutes but instead I’m sitting there for five minutes bored out of my skull? Why is it okay for MY time to be wasted?

      Reply ↓
  45. Happy all the time now*

    I dress well at work. (Not just my opinion; I’ve been told so my entire career from both management and my peers at all levels — entry, mid- and senior). I’ve worked at major global Fortune 1000 companies — and I have always worn cotton for comfort. There’s nothing wrong with wearing cotton; it’s the style, fit and sometimes color that make the difference between looking professional and yard work clothes. I’ve even bought cotton/Lycra summer suits, so you can easily find professional clothes that are cool and comfortable. A bit of Lycra helps with fit and how the fabric lays. Some examples of what will/won’t look professional (and yes, I know some people won’t agree and it will be influenced by the type of work and environment…) And the good news is there are a lot of options at all price points. Old Navy is a good source, as well as Lands’ End and Target; you just need to sort through. Good luck — comfortable, well-fitting cotton is available.

    – Well-fitting cotton/Lycra skirt (think a heavy double knit, twill or chino): yes
    – Light T-shirt weight cotton skirt or dress: no
    – Cotton (and a bit of Lycra) well-fitting pressed chinos (neutrals are most professional — beige/cream/tan/black/navy/gray) or thicker double knit “slacks” with no see-through: yes
    – Cotton leggings, sweats, stretch pants in a thin fabric: no
    – Cotton or cotton- Lycra knit long sleeve or short sleeve fitted tops. Most colors, patterns. All necklines (crew, V, boat, turtleneck): yes
    – Cotton knit T-shirts that are baggy, cropped, wrinkled, souvenir or logo’d: no
    – Cotton jackets, sweaters, scarfs, dresses etc. You get the gist…

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  46. Goldenrod*

    “Ah yes, the good old “on time is 10 minutes early” gambit.”

    ha ha! Another Kristin, I agree with you!

    YES, it is old fashioned, and LW should update their thinking. No way am I showing up 10 minutes early to an office job. It’s bad management to monitor people’s time and “butts in seats” and it’s a substitute for actual management – the good kind, that Alison encourages.

    Allowing some flexibility in schedules will pay off in the long run with loyal, dedicated employees who feel respected while getting their work done.

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  47. soontoberetired*

    the whole professionalism of cotton vs polyester kills me. Since I started working in a professional role, all I have ever worn is cotten and have been complimented on my clothing. Synthetic clothing can look cheap. And wrinkly too. It is the quality of the clothing, not the fabric.

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  48. LuckyDuck*

    I’ve been working in a professional capacity for 22 years and have never really worked anywhere that cared if I was a few minutes late. Obviously if there’s a meeting or something else going on, I make sure I’m early/on time, but other than that, I appreciate being considered an adult who can manage my time as I see fit to get my work done. Of course, this is job dependent – there are jobs in my same organization where discipline is handed down for being 2 minutes late.

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  49. Rocket Raccoon*

    I work in a commercial kitchen. If I am scheduled to start at 1:00, that means clock in at 1:00. Chef expects me in the kitchen by about 1:05. The 5 minutes is to get dressed and grab my knife.

    We are supposed to avoid overtime, so I also leave the kitchen about 5 minutes before my shift ends, throw my linens in the laundry, then clock out.

    Shift time does matter because we need coverage. You can be prompt AND paid for your time.

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  50. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    As a teen I had a summer job at Baskin Robbins. I was the sole employee on starting shift. I had to arrive 15 minutes early, clock in, squeegee the plate glass windows, set up, and unlock the door on the dot. Which I did, but the franchise owner wouldn’t pay me until the store opened. After several arguments about how squeegeeing windows is WORK snd I should get paid for it, I gave 2 weeks notice. She was so mad, she fired me. Ok. I took of my apron and hat and she said, “You can’t go until your shift is over! I have to pick ip my daughter!” Oh lady, I’m gone right now. It would have cost her one hour and 15 minutes worth of minimum wage to keep me, but no. And that is why I give very little attention to time scolds.

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  51. Fool's Gold*

    If you’re in a (for example) “phone lines go on at 9, be ready” type job, then yes you should get there around 8:45, put coat away, bathroom, etc… – but that’s because your shift starts at 8:45 and that’s when you should get to clock in and that’s when you start getting paid. Prepping to work is work. Booting up the computer is work.

    Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to care about 9:10 vs 9:00. I think a lot of the pushback to this concept stems from people thinking, “Well then you might as well say that if 9:10 doesn’t matter, neither does 9:20! 9:40! Why even have set start times at all!” and it’s like, yeah man. Maybe you’re on to something. But people aren’t ready for that conversation.

    The point at which it starts affecting your work (ability to get answers from colleages, etc) is the point at which it makes sense to set rules. In a lot of places that might look more like core hours than like 9-to-5. And if we really thought it through, it’s obvious that it also looks a lot like the 32 Hour Full Time Work Week than like the 40hr standard we have now.

    Reply ↓
    1. ElliottRook*

      All of this, seconded. Coverage-based jobs are different but most office jobs are completely wackadoodle if they think even an entire 2-3 hours TRULY matters to the work.

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  52. Atlantis*

    I feel like the culture of being “on-time” is both highly dependent on business needs and employee-employer reciprocal flexibility.

    I feel like if you truly are in a job where you need people to be ready to go when the shift starts, then the expectation needs to be made at the beginning, and the time needs to be compensated for. If not, then being more flexible in my experience gets you far better results then anything. If I have a meeting that starts at 9am, then I will be on and ready to go by 9am. But if I don’t have a meeting or if my presence is not affecting my coworkers productivity, then if I’m in by 9:04, no one should care. I’m far more likely to be flexible on staying later/coming in early in the times when it’s really needed because my manager is flexible with me on the times I need it. If it’s truly affecting matters of business, then address it. If its just a lingering “if they start at 9, they should be butts-in-seats at 9” then you may want to reflect as to why it’s so important to you, and if that mindset is really going to help you retain the best employees and give your business the best results.

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  53. Deborah*

    Hi! Site function comment here– looks like it’s not possible to collapse threads. I’m sure that’s in the works, just commenting in case that flags something useful for you. Thanks!

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  54. Dinwar*

    @ TGIF:

    “…but that being said I have always arrived early at work. I am a firm believer in having your butt at work on time, period.”

    I am too. I like to use the time before everyone else shows up to get a plan set up for the day, and get a few things started, that sort of thing. Plus, nearly 20 years starting work at 07:00 makes a pretty deeply engrained habit. Plus I can make a good pot of coffee, rather than the vaguely coffee-tinted water some people seem to like.

    The issue is, I can’t extrapolate that to my teams. That’s MY preference. If THEIR preference is to work late to get the stuff done so they can sleep in an extra half-hour, showing up at 07:00 on the dot, that’s fine. The important thing is that the work gets done and they’re available when they need to be.

    It’s the difference between asking yourself “What’s good for me?” and asking yourself “What’s good for the company?” What’s good FOR ME is to show up early. What’s good FOR THE COMPANY is for people to get their work done in a way that is efficient and timely.

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  55. Not Crazy Cat Lady*

    LW1 reminds me of a manager I had at Worst OldJob. She was a veteran who never adapted to life in the civilian world. We didn’t stand and salute when she entered the room, and she didn’t own our time in and out of work. People definitely quit over attitudes like that when it’s an obvious power trip.

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  56. Stalwart*

    My hours are 8:30-4, but the person who enforces that the most strictly is me. I come in at 7:50-8 (it’s just how the traffic works) and my boss knows that this is my Coffee, Breakfast & Relax/Advice Column Binge time. I won’t even glance at my email before 8:30, so she knows that if she comes to me with a question that can’t wait, it’s perfectly understandable that I haven’t even logged in to everything yet and can’t pull the info up as quickly as I would be expected to once my official workday started.

    My previous supervisor was similarly well-trained (and I suspect, based on occasional offhand comments from Current Boss, that he gave her a crash course in How To Employ A Happy Stalwart). Unlike most people at my same level, I was militant about my work-life balance. Former Boss once said to me, “I knew I’d screwed up badly on [Thing] when you replied to my email during dinner. You didn’t TELL me how badly, but I knew. The timestamp told me exactly how much trouble I was in.”

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  57. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

    Ha, no reply yet, but whoever talked about wearing cotton for DC summers because it’s breathable: YES. I had a federal internship years ago where I wore polyester satin blouses because I couldn’t afford silk, and I’m still surprised that crap didn’t fuse to my skin the second I stepped out of the mile-long Metro escalator into the burst of heat and humidity.

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  58. Lenora Rose*

    @ FaceTime Freddy: I’m guessing that in the widget factory, when shift time ends, the machines stop and the workers go and close out – or the next shift starts and someone else takes on the widget making. Either way, there’s no opportunity to linger and make up 3 more widgets because the machine is either off or occupied. IF the shift ends on time then yes, the first 10 minutes (or half hour, or etc) IS lost time, and that is exactly the situation where the caveats in the original answer apply.

    Thing is, a lot of the exact same offices that dock people for being late 10 minutes think nothing of asking workers at their desks to STAY ON for extra minutes / hours. So you’re on time, but being told to work late by the same person who thinks you should be in your seat working at start time sharp.

    More, a lot of the same people who wander in a bit late in some offices where time isn’t rigidly controlled are also the ones who linger late in the office to finish up a few things once it’s quieter and they’re undisturbed. The ONLY time someone should ever get side-eye over their hours is if they chronically both arrive late and leave on time/early, and even then it depends what else is going on; a person who does that but also does some work at home on Saturday, or sends professional emails 3 hours later, deserves a bit of slack.

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  60. EssentiallyEssential*

    Arrrggggh. I understand being flexible. But I’m n office worker, who is hourly, and who has to be available for questions from within our company and from our vendors. Having a coworker who comes in at 12:07p is maddening to me. On good days it’s in the 10 o’clock hour. I’m taking the Alison approach of leaving it be, since I have no supervisory role over them. I just don’t understand how they continue to come in that late, especially when it’s been pointed out to our department that our work day needs to fit between 6a – 6p.

    /rant

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    1. I Have RBF*

      I had one job where I set my hours to be 10 to 7, because it literally cut my total commute time in half, plus the last two hours of my day were the most productive because it was quieter (open plans suck for deep brain work, IMO.) If there was a 9 am meeting I would dial in from my phone before I started driving.

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  61. el l*

    It’s telling that “show up early” doesn’t give a business reason for this expectation. If you work a coverage job, it’s more understandable. If they’ve tried to measure output and effectiveness and this is somehow the only way, got it.

    But there’s ringing silence on why. And I wonder if on some level it’s because they know redefining on time as 10 minutes early is a little absurd.

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  62. Cosmic Crisp*

    I am a stickler for being early if someone is waiting on me- that is in my personal life and at work. I take transit, so I take an earlier train or bus than I need. Recently I met a coworker to get my new badge in the morning and arrived 30 minutes early. I regularly arrive 45 minutes early to my Saturday class because otherwise I’m cutting it way too close. It’s disrespectful of others to be late when they’re waiting on you, so I adhere to the principle of early is on time, on time is late, late is unacceptable.

    AND, when I don’t have a 8am meeting, I sometimes roll in at 8:30 or later, because the business doesn’t need me to be in earlier than that, my sleep schedule can be unpredictable, and my boss doesn’t care as long as I get my work done. That’s the kind of job I have. When I worked opening shifts at the grocery store, of course I was on time. But if anyone is clockwatching me at my current job, that’s just unnecessary, and mine is the kind of job that I’m pretty sure a lot of AAM readers have.

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  63. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    No Tribble At All*

    OP, if you need people to be ready to start work at a specific time for coverage/shift reasons, you need to start their clock 15-30 minutes before handover time. When I worked twelves, we formally handed over at 7:30, and we were expected to be in office ready to go at 7:15. I had a coworker who would get in early because he gave himself so much margin for traffic, and then he would complain because I (lived 15 minutes away) didn’t also get in at 6:45.

    We also typically texted each other if handover was going to be crazy to try and get in early.

    That peer could have been me. With a 45 minute drive (on average), I could leave 45 minutes early and get there 50% of the time. 60 minutes early and 75% on time. I drew the line at 70 minutes early and 90% of the time, but that also meant I was more than 15 minutes early more than 50% of the time.

    Just part of the cost of having the job, I guess. Hourly, no OT, and nothing to do while I waited.

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  64. Lemons*

    #1 I would bet dollars to donuts you don’t bat an eye when people stay late! (But I bet you do when they leave early.)

    Some people do their best work at 2am; the best work you can get is much more important than a butt in a seat for a prescribed, arbitrary amount of time.

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  65. Dahlia*

    It’s hard because I wear plus sizes, but I’m trying not to buy polyester clothing anymore because if I sweat at ALL I reek in it. And that’s a lot more unprofessional than cotton to me!

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  66. Pam Adams*

    Hey ’10-minutes-late Boss,

    Are you also concerned about your employees who work past the end of their scheduled day or who skip/shorten their lunch to get work done? How about when you email/text me after hours and expect an answer?

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  67. Ms. Whatsit*

    On the cotton vs polyester discussion, I wouldn’t assume it was a comment on the fiber. It’s not that obvious in most cases, and there really are high quality polyesters where you’d have to see the label to know that. LW has the fiber in mind because it’s a shopping priority for her, but most people think of a particular style of shirt or certain fabric characteristics (stretchy knits, for example) that aren’t actually fiber dependent. I’d need more details about the shirt to tell if there’s genuinely something t-shirt-ish about it or if the coworker is just odd.

    That said, I wouldn’t worry about it; I assume if her wardrobe were actually a problem at that company someone would’ve said something to her about it (not expressed a weirdly strong anti-t-shirt opinion).

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  68. Nilsson Schmilsson*

    In a manufacturing environment, you have to be at your machine on time…obviously.

    However, I held an hourly desk job for just a few years, and only for health insurance. I was always on time, stayed until I was no longer needed, and got paid for that. But…others who weren’t on time, took ridiculously long breaks off the clock, and did probably half to 75% of the work I did, still got paid that same hourly wage and hours I did because it was easier for the company that way. It’s frustrating, if you’re the good employee.

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  69. Notalice*

    I worked as a receptionist for my dad who started saying this kind of thing passive aggressively. Obedient daughter that I am, I showed up 15 minutes early every day and wrote it on my time sheet. I worked 40 hour weeks already. Weird thing to pay OT for but okay. I think it lasted a few weeks before I was told to resume coming in at my scheduled start time.

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  70. Hyaline*

    The textile nerd in me needs to point out–it can be really helpful to learn the difference between fiber and weave when it comes to textiles. Cotton and polyester can both be woven in almost all of the same weaves–they can both be knits, broadcloths (like button down shirt fabric), sateen/satin, sheers, and so on. They can be of lighter or heavier weights. FWIW, this is true of wool, silk, ramie, rayon, etc. You can make wool satin and silk knit. Wool can be lightweight gauze, and cotton can be thick, knubbly-woven coat material. So–if you want to develop a professional wardrobe of natural fibers, you 100% can, but you probably want to get comfortable with the textile vocabulary that describes weights and weaves so you can select, say, cotton poplin button downs and silk jersey knit shells and worsted wool trousers.

    A cotton poplin button down is vastly different from a cotton knit t shirt, and yes, one does look professional and the other looks more casual. If your coworker (rather bitchily, I might add) disparaged wearing t-shirts, the problem with the clothing choice (if in your field it even is a problem!) probably isn’t the fiber (cotton), it’s the weave (knit) and (probably the cut).

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  71. L*

    I’d make a distinction between exempt and non-exempt jobs and whether people are getting paid for the 10 minutes or not. It’s a little more reasonable to be annoyed if people are clocking in at 9 when they don’t get there until 9:15, if you’re being honest about your own hours. But if it’s not a clocking in/out type of job, or if it is and people are being honest about arriving late, I agree in most cases this shouldn’t matter, if there is no business reason that being available at 9:01 would be important.

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  72. Lizcase*

    I worked an office job for decades where the only “on-time” requirements were for support shifts and meetings. they had core hours, with some exceptions, and no one really cared exactly what time you arrived if you did your work and put in your hours.
    I then moved companies suddenly it was “Everyone arrives at 8:30 am.” It was honestly bizarre to me. And really annoying for the commute cause busses don’t run on the same schedule as companies do. (except for the industrial specials created for specific factories).

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  73. me*

    The summer I worked in DC, Joshua Bell, the violist, played in a metro station during morning rush hour. Most people didn’t stop to listen, and it was a big story on the local news that week. My internship would literally lock the door if you came in late. I didn’t transfer through that station, but if it had, I wouldn’t have been able to stop because of the lateness rule.

    I think there’s a lot of interesting and worthwhile discussions here re: timeliness, but I think ultimately there’s no one size fits all rule. Either it matters – either all the time or on certain days – and workers need to be scheduled and paid accordingly, or it doesn’t, in which case we really need to get over this old-school capitalistic way of thinking and appreciate the fact that there’s more to life than work. Especially because most of us are working for the man, and are not the man himself.

    And, since then, I have had the opportunity to see Joshua Bell perform and 10/10 would recommend.

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    1. Lenora Rose*

      Yes, while the initial posts about Bell doing that were all about how people “can’t stop and see beauty” or assuming it was classism, the cold hard fact is that people taking the metro to work are generally not in a position where they can afford the pause to listen.

      I recently had the experience of watching a guy on the side of the street dancing for cash. I couldn;t stop at the time, but I could watch him for most of a block, and pause to compliment him and toss him summat. (I was deeply amused when I realised he was dancing to the beat… of the music on my headphones. Also to his own boom box, but the coincidental matchup was fun. And yes, I know much pop and rock music is in 4/4 and a certain range of bpm so it’s not as wild as it might be, but it **lined up on the down beat**.)

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  74. still shocked european*

    Re: fabrics question. I think the key word here is “European”. How we dress for work is definitely context and field-dependent, but I would argue that there are still major differences in which Europeans and Americans consider “casual”.

    Just as an example, you would never see a European undergraduate student go to class in their pajamas, yoga pants, gym shorts, or sweatpants. It just doesn’t happen. The casual option is “jeans”.

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  75. Lifelong student*

    I am retired now- and things have changed- but when I was working I usually began at seven. My assistant’s schedule was 8-4. Often in the hours difference things came in which were for my assistant to deal with. Some were time critical- although not emergencies. If my assistant came in on time, they were dealt with in a timely fashion. If assistant was not at work station because – attending to personal needs after entering the building- there was a delay in responding to requests which could cause delays which could be significant. Yes- I expect people to be ready to work at the time they are expected- because they should do personal things on personal time. Waiting for the slamming.

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    1. Esprit de l'escalier*

      That was a specific situation in which it seems even a brief delay threw off your assistant’s ability to get things done in a timely way. Lots of jobs are not like that. Many workers would be just as productive if they used the bathroom at the start of their work day as they would be if they did it an hour later — maybe more productive as they wouldn’t be squirming in their chair needing to take a bathroom break.

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    2. Lenora Rose*

      No slamming, it can make a difference in some situations. The problem is mapping the identical idea to all situations just because of superficial similarities (“These are both office jobs on computers!” “These are both assistants to important people!”)

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  76. Sparrow*

    Another thing I’d like to ask #1 (and others who share that thought) to consider is: let’s assume the employees in question do genuinely have jobs where your “must arrive 10 minutes early” edict is valid. 1) Are you clearly communicating what their actual start time is? 2) If they’re hourly non-exempt, are you paying them for that extra 10 minutes?

    In one of my first jobs, I was told repeatedly during the interview and onboarding process that my start time was 8am. I showed up to work a few minutes before 8am my first several days and nobody said anything… until I was abruptly issued a formal reprimand for tardiness.
    When I asked why I was being considered tardy, since I had arrived before 8am every day, I was told that my actual start time was 7:50am. It was also made clear that I was not allowed to clock in until 8:00am—despite being an hourly, minimum wage employee, and despite the fact that there were several work tasks I was required to do in that 10-minute period. Since I had to be ready for my pre-clocked-in tasks right at 7:50am, I had to arrive at about 7:45am.

    This soured me on the company and my manager for the rest of my time there—not because I was told I had to arrive at 7:50, but because 1) even after it was clear to my manager that I genuinely did not know my start time was 7:50, she still issued a formal reprimand, 2) the pay issue, and 3) because of how morning buses in my city run, I needed to catch a bus about an hour earlier than the one I had been taking—and since the 8am start time was already pushing the bounds of how early I was willing to get up for a job, I almost certainly would have declined this offer and accepted the other offer I’d received on the same day if I’d known what the actual schedule was.

    So, if you take a serious look at your employees’ work and decide they really do need to be there early, that’s fine—but please communicate that to them from the beginning, and make sure they’re being compensated appropriately.

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  77. Middle Name Jane*

    The person lamenting about employees not being at their desks ready to work precisely on time reminds me of the Everybody Loves Raymond episode where Frank tells Raymond about AIS (A** in Seat), and Raymond later applies it to Debra and leaves the house without her to an awards show in Manhattan because she wasn’t in the car at the AIS time he had designated.

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  78. Tau*

    In general, I wish people would do less of the thing where they dramatically negatively read into people’s character and motivations for struggling with something in a way they personally wouldn’t. Especially when that thing doesn’t even matter.

    I mean, the lateness thing. Obviously there are jobs where it is very important to be at your station working at X on the dot, and it does not make sense for you to be working *before* X on the dot, and so your hours are rigid by nature. But if that isn’t the case, if there is absolutely zero business consequence if someone shows up ten minutes “late” and then works ten minutes longer to make up for it, imposing a fixed start time because *you* think having one is a good thing and judging people as slackers who show up later because *you* think there’s no other reason for being late is both bad management and not really supportive of the diversity of human experience to boot.

    Like, just one example. I have ADHD, along with corresponding time-blindness. Trying to show up somewhere at X on the dot is genuinely very hard for me, and that has nothing to do with disrespect or not caring about the thing or whatever people like to read into it but because my neurological setup means my brain will actively sabotage the process the whole way through. I have strategies to mitigate this for stuff like doctor’s appointments, but they’re generally exhausting, often leave me showing up to things 45 minutes early, and get less effective if I use them too frequently. There’s no way I could manage a job with a fixed start time without ending up showing up late almost every day… which is why I’ve specifically chosen a career where there’s no business need for one.

    Other people may have other disabilities, unreliable transportation, fixed appointments in their life they need to work around like childcare drop-offs or doctor’s appointments, stuff going on at home that may cause unexpected delays, etc. etc. etc. If you allow people to be flexible with their working time when it’s possible, this can be so helpful – often especially to groups who are frequently disadvantaged in the workplace. Please don’t be a stickler about start time when there’s no business reason for it.

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    1. I Have RBF*

      This.

      I had a very hard time meeting a hard start time. I would be anywhere from 10 minutes early to 15 minutes late. Between my ADHD and traffic, it drove me nuts, especially when the damned start time was 7 am and I’m absolutely NOT a day person.

      Now that I work remote, it’s easier for me to be on time, because there’s no commute variable involved. I am pretty good about setting and responding to my alarms. I also set my start time to when I can actually manage to wake up. (If it was still 7 am, I would still be late.)

      I still log in late some days, by 9:05, because I end up with other stuff interfering, but I also log in at 8:55 other days. My alarm for “go to work” goes off at 8:55. Sometimes I’m still going to the bathroom, other times I’m already headed to my desk.

      I have also found that if I don’t log in to meetings 5 minutes early, I get distracted and am 15 minutes or more late.

      I’m 63, and have struggled with “on time” behavior for all of my working life. I avoid jobs where it matters.

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  79. A_Jessica*

    The thing about synthetic fabrics is they weren’t widely popular in office attire until the 60s &70s. Does European colleague presume to assume that the dapper suits of the 40s & 50s didn’t look classy?

    Seams off.

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  80. Let It Go*

    As someone in their late 50s I can say times have changed lots and often for the better.

    Common office etiquette used to be 8-5, nylons, skirts and heels…. Thank God that has changed.

    If you are not a supervisor and others start times don’t directly affect your job leave it alone.If it directly affects your ability to do your job then talk to your boss.

    Even if you are a supervisor you may want to look into more flexibility for your staff with regards to start times if possible.

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  81. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #3 I must be an shamelssly slovenly European because I don’t wear synthetics; I dislike the plastic feel and they make me sweat.
    So almost all my clothes and underwear are cotton.
    I’ve never ironed – life’s too short for boring shite – but my clothes are not wrinkled because I hang them up immediately on taking them out of the washing machine and I don’t use the dryer (except for towels)

    Oh and that coworker sounds a tiresome snob. Really never worn a T-shirt? Don’t believe it.

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  82. NursingaWound*

    Re: lateness…..maybe it’s a non issue if there isn’t a coverage aspect to the job. For me as a nurse, other peoples’ lateness meant I had to work more & longer on a daily basis. If you can’t be on time, please don’t go into nursing. Thanks.

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  83. ElliottRook*

    Post-housekeeping comment: the site no longer requires me to turn off my VPN to comment, so THANK YOU!

    Reply ↓
    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      I was hoping that would be the case when I saw about the server switch and am excited to see I can comment again!

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  84. cncx*

    I am salary in a coverage based job. We have to clock in to prove coverage. The added benefit is that if I clock in at 745 for an 8 start time, over time the minutes turn into a chunk of overtime. That is the way to do it if people want butt in chair.

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  85. Sleeve McQueen*

    If LW1 is such a stickler for people being a few minutes late, I hope they are equally as diligent in ensuring that the people who start on time also finish on time.

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  86. earlthesachem*

    If you have a shift job, you damn well better be on time because the shift before you wants to go home.

    I’m a nurse. My shift is 10PM-6AM. I am always on the floor about 5 minutes early. Some of my morning replacements will be late to their own funeral. How tolerant we are depends entirely on how much we like that nurse. One is always on the floor around 10 after, but we like her and her awesome (and always late) mom is my supervisor, so we know chronic lateness runs in the family. Another one we don’t like (and she’s not a particularly good nurse), so we get annoyed by her showing up at 12 after every day, taking report and then leaving to go get a coffee. Yeah. But she’s a Boomer MAGAt and will hopefully be retiring soon.

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  87. The Not-An-Underpants Gnome*

    The European colleague would have a heart attack about the dress code for my new job; it’s casual dress and I got 100% confirmation from the onboarder that “casual dress code” does indeed mean I can roll up to work in blue jeans and a t-shirt with Godzilla on it.

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  88. Judy*

    I get it about the lateness thing being outmoded, but, in the end, if someone is consistently 30 minutes late (daily), that’s ten hours more a MONTH that I’m working than them. And we’re all “good” workers so it’s not like they do just as much in 7.5 hours as I do in 8.0 (this doesn’t apply to the people who stay an extra 30 at the end of the day to make up the time). I notice most people who come in late never seem to miss their usual leaving time.

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    1. H3llifIknow*

      You are assuming latecomers are not also lateworkers. I may not come in until 9 or 930 but I also work later to make up my hours. *IF* people are coming in daily 1/2 hour late AND still leaving with everyone else, that’s a whole different problem. The lateness isn’t the issue, the not working their 8 hours is the issue, or the not getting their work done is the issue.

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  89. RaginMiner*

    I was a rising star at a mid-size construction general contractor. I arrived one minute late to the site one day because my FIL was in the hospital and I needed to stay overnight. My boss continued to berate me, knowing the situation at hand. I left less than three weeks later and got out of the industry entirely, and people still tell me they wish I had not left. Being overly rigid about time only encourages good people to leave.

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  90. huh*

    Ugh, I get why they do it, but I’m still annoyed Inc. joined the “you get X amount of free articles per month” club.

    Reply ↓
    1. What_the_What*

      I haven’t had an issue with Inc *but I use “Open in a Private Window” but New York Times or whatever, I’ve NEVER been able to read a free article. From the first time it said, “You’ve exceeded your limit of free articles.” Like… wut?

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  91. Anonynonybooboo*

    I have three people that report to me, and “on time” is different for each of them, because my department needs coverage for 11 business hours due to time zones. {We are internal-facing}

    I allowed each of them to PICK their start times (collaboratively) to work best for their preferences and families, including one employee who takes their lunch hour in a split configuration to drop off/pick up their kids from school. The other two employees stagger their lunches, so that the first employee plus one other are always available to provide assistance over the staggered lunch hours the REST of the company is taking. I take mine as I can, or eat on the go depending on meetings.

    As the manager, I cover any “early” or “late” hours when someone is on vacation/sick or has an appointment that they need coverage for.

    My point: I am philosophically OK with “start times” if they meet an actual business need. If 8am is just some arbitrary, remnant number from the Before Times then I’d question it’s value. Same with a scheduled noon “lunch hour”.

    And if there is an emergency – flat tire, kid is sick – I personally accommodate that for the employee because that is my job as the manager.

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    1. What_the_What*

      You sound like a good person to work for! Kudos for the being the manager we ALL deserve!

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  92. toolegittoresign*

    I think it’s wrong to call it “old-fashioned.”
    This presumes there was a time where no one was ever late to the office anywhere, or that it was never ever allowed. You can watch Mad Men and see that’s not true — even when most of the people coming to the office were men with SAH wives.

    A better word for it is “pedantic.” You’re measuring time instead of productivity or reliability. If someone gets their work done, is reasonably responsive to calls/emails as required, attends required meetings, meets deadlines and doesn’t block anyone based on their availability, then they’re reliable. If any of that isn’t met, then they’re unreliable, even if they’re at the desk early every day. It’s far more important to be reliable than just 10 minutes early every morning.

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  93. Winter Sky*

    I swear by merino wool, even in summer. It’s actually more comfortable than cotton, and looks dressier. Synthetics are right out – I don’t even own any.

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  94. H3llifIknow*

    I know very people other than say shift workers relieving someone else (e.g. paramedics, firefighters, nurses) who really *need* to be ready for duty at exactly X O’clock. If I have a meeting, etc.. sure I’ll be there, but my work day varies and I may be up and ready at 730, and I may have not slept well and not show up until 930. But, I work my hours. I have never missed a deadline, and the same goes for everyone on our program. Nobody is clock watching and it’s oddly archaic, pretentious and controlling micromanagement to do so, IMHO. It’s like saying, “well if *I* (sniff) can make it here by 8am, then EVERYONE should (sniff).”

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  95. MCMonkeyBean*

    For LW3–It’s hard to judge if an outfit is too casual without pictures, but honestly the delivery of that message sounds so rude that I would not automatically trust the coworker’s judgment. I’d ask a few friends you trust and maybe your boss if you have that kind of relationship if they think your outfits come across too casual.

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  96. Pepper*

    Alison, if the person is works hourly, then starting actual work at an exact time and ending it at an exact time does matter. I read your response in Inc. as not addressing that at all.

    The exact starting times need to be in time sheets, and per experience, working hourly via an agency at attorney professional roles, I have to certify under penalty of perjury that my time entries are correct. And working overtime without permission has consequences, as well as failing to take mandatory breaks – that is specifically under California laws.

    Reply ↓

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