open thread – March 7, 2025 by Alison Green on March 7, 2025 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer. You may also like:my employee lies to me about things he just said 30 seconds agois being salaried a scam?here's a bunch of help finding a new job { 1,042 comments }
making 2 job candidates have dinner together, manager eavesdrops on conversations, and more by Alison Green on March 7, 2025 It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go… 1. CEO is making two finalist candidates have dinner with him at the same time Wondering if you can tell me if this situation is as crazy as I think it is. My company is hiring for an executive level role for an office we are standing up in a new state. This role will report to our CEO and it’s important we get the right person in place. We’ve narrowed it down to two final candidates, they have interviewed with other C-suite employees, and the feedback is similar on both candidates (both would likely be great in the role). Our CEO wants to take them both to dinner … at same time, together. After I pushed back on this idea, the CEO brought it up in a larger team meeting, and every person agreed this wasn’t a good idea. But our CEO is convinced this is the way to go. His reasoning is a little competition would be good for them and help him make the final decision. Beyond being unprofessional, I think this would make the candidates question our culture and if they even want the role. I feel like this is a disaster in the making. Is there a scenario when taking two candidates to the same business dinner would be a good idea? No, this is a terrible idea! Any decent candidate is going to wonder if your management culture pits people against each other in dysfunctional ways, and it’s going to be an awkward position for both of them. Hiring isn’t about candidates going head to head with each other at the same dinner table; it’s about the employer assessing candidates against their own set of metrics and deciding who’s the strongest match. A lot of excellent candidates would be turned off by this and decline. That said, if they’d be taking a job with a CEO who thinks “a little competition is good for them,” it’s probably better that they find that out now. 2. My manager eavesdrops on conversations My manager has a habit of eavesdropping: she will lurk around a corner listening to a conversation for a couple of minutes then appear, having taken a side. I find this really creepy. Recently she took it to a whole new level. A supervisor and I were having a somewhat heated discussion about something in a room where it’s quite hard to eavesdrop (thick doors). My manager came into the room and walked over to a computer and started using it. Our discussion paused and I said something like, “Uh, do you want to be involved in this conversation, Mary-Jane?” and she said no, she was just there because someone had left a computer logged in, which is a security issue. We stood there awkwardly as she fiddled with the computer (logging out takes two seconds), just the three of us in the room. Eventually the conversation continued and she continued to pretend she wasn’t listening. Later on I got written up for being disrespectful to the supervisor in that conversation. There isn’t really a question here, but, your thoughts? Well, your manager is an eavesdropper. I don’t know that it’s creepy, per se, but it’s weird — she’s your boss so she has the authority to just involve herself if she wants to, rather than pretending that she’s not listening until she’s suddenly responding. There might be some circumstances where you can sort of call it out, by saying, “Mary-Jane, you look like you’re paying attention — do you want to give input?” In some situations, if you have a ton of capital (and I mean a really significant amount) and want to use some of it, then after she’s popped up having clearly been lurking around the corner, you could say, “It always throws me off to realize someone has been listening where we can’t see them! I would rather you just join us straight away in the future.” (But you need to be deeply valued and your job rock solid, for that to even approach being a good idea, and even then it’s probably not worth it unless you’re about to lose your mind over this.) Beyond that, all you can really do is be aware that she does this, so if you ever don’t want her to pop up in a conversation or opine on it later, pick your locations carefully. But I’m curious what else she’s like as a manager, because my guess is that this isn’t the only way she’s weird about how she exercises authority. To be clear, there are times as a manager where it’s useful and legitimate to listen into conversations that you’re not an active part of — like paying attention to how an employee talks to coworkers or explains a project on a client call. But it shouldn’t be a covert thing, where people assume they have privacy and really don’t, or where it makes people feel scrutinized or micromanaged or like they don’t have any autonomy. More here: I can hear everything my staff says — should I pretend I don’t? 3. I’m panicking in my new job I’m a marketer with 13+ years experience in my field. Throughout my career, I’ve established a reputation for having a strong work ethic, being an expert in my role, and being a smart, dependable teammate. I was at my most recent role for four years, and in the beginning it was great. I even received a departmental award for my work. About midway through my tenure there, I got a new boss who, after a few months, made my working environment really toxic. (She constantly switched up expectations and goals, had me constantly reexplain very basic parts of the job more than a year in, and would accuse me of doing things I never did.) Fast forward to just before Christmas this past year, I got fired for a situation that was largely out of my control. I threw myself into the job search and was lucky enough to start a new role after two months of unemployment. It’s a fully remote job in the same field (marketing) but in a wildly different industry. It’s been 2.5 weeks and I feel completely overwhelmed. Everyone has been nice and said it’ll take a while to catch up and to reach out with any questions but I can’t get a read on my boss. She’s clearly very good at her job, but is also very busy, so there hasn’t been a ton of onboarding. I’m terrified of not meeting expectations or catching up quickly enough and being fired again. Is this a normal feeling for any new job, or is this a reflection of my fit with this company? Also, is it bad if, at the six-month mark, I start job searching again if I still feel the same way I do today? It’s a very normal feeling. If you’re still feeling this way in six months — or better yet, eight — then sure, start looking around, but two and a half weeks is nothing and it’s really common to be feeling this way, even for a job you will master in time. It might help to think about specifically what’s making you feel unmoored. Can you make a list of questions that you’d feel more settled/secure if you knew the answers to? Are there people with similar roles who you can ask to coffee, say you’re feeling overwhelmed, and ask for help settling in? Also, if she hasn’t already covered this, try asking your boss what she’d like to see you accomplish in one month, three months, and six months, since knowing that might help you get your bearings. Last, is there one project you can pick to dive into, asking questions of colleagues as you go? Picking just one project when you’re overwhelmed in a new position can sometimes be a good way into the job and to learn as you go. 4. Questions to ask when interviewing for my own job I have been doing my role on a temporary basis for 2.5 years. Soon I have to interview for it on a permanent basis. What kind of question can I ask which won’t sound like I don’t understand the role or the organization? You can ask about what goals they have for the role over the next year (or next few years) and if there’s anything they want to see the person in the job approach differently than has been historically done. If there are known challenges or changes on the horizon (or ongoing), you can ask about how those will affect the job. Plus, think about anything else that might be on your mind — are there things you wish you knew about their vision for the role/strategy/etc.? If so, think about whether you can shape those into useful questions. Related: how to prepare for an internal interview You may also like:my employees eavesdropped on my private conversation and gossiped about itdo internal candidates have a better chance at the job?I had to prepare a meal and entertain 20 people for a job interview -- and so did 19 other candidates { 268 comments }
are my longer hours unfair to my coworker? by Alison Green on March 6, 2025 A reader writes: I work in an office with two full-time employees, a manager, and 80+ contract employees. Jane, the other full-time employee, and I both support the contract employees in vital, yet different ways. Let’s say that she schedules appointments, and I process payments. Each office in our company has a scheduler and a payment processor, and while both are technically hourly, each cohort has different duties and perhaps a different culture. Payment processors have many more responsibilities than schedulers, and both are occasionally asked to pick up an outside task or six. Here’s where things get tricky. Both Jane and I have had salaried positions, and Jane is from outside the industry in a larger, more corporate environment. We treat our jobs quite differently. There’s no time clock, but the payment processors tends to prioritize customer service to the contract employees/getting things done efficiently over keeping within eight hours. We frequently stay a little late and often put in a couple hours over a weekend (at home) so as not to return to an anxiety-producing avalanche of work. Depending on the time of year, I probably work 42-50-hour weeks, the latter during super busy times/events. My impression of the schedulers is that many (but not all) of them are the same. We don’t get overtime, but we get flex time, which admittedly I can forget to track/use. Jane, by contrast, leaves exactly on time (or early, according to some), sticks only to her assigned duties, and demands flex time as compensation for even 15 minutes spent outside her work hours. To be fair, she legally has the right to do this, but it feels quite different from our corporate culture. Jane gets a lot done within her daily hours but is unavailable outside that time, even for sudden crises. This is difficult for the contract employees, whose jobs are not locked into a neat 9-5, Monday through Friday routine. While they respect my personal time and space, the contract workers know that if difficulty arises, I will be there. Meanwhile, there was incident in which a contract employee came to Jane 40 minutes before the end of an early-release day with a task that would take at least an hour and she firmly said no. She was working from home that day and had no plans but felt it unfair to be asked at such late notice. The contact employee complained all the way up the chain of leadership and another of Jane’s cohort had to step in and do the project. This has led to some dissatisfaction and (unfortunately) comparison between us. Personally, I get where Jane is coming from – especially legally – but I also see that it fits neither company culture nor my personal work ethic. The company was incredibly good to me when I needed to take a long family leave, and the contract employees and management have been generous about sharing some of their bonuses. I know that Jane resents me for working beyond my eight hours and once reported me to HR for it. (They did nothing.) But am I setting a bad precedent? Am I being unfair to Jane? I am not intentionally trying to look better in the eyes of the contact workers or corporate leaders; I am just trying to do a good job and help the company along. Yeah, you’re probably setting a bad precedent, and also being a bit unfair to Jane! If you’re working for free as a non-exempt worker, you’re putting pressure on colleagues to do the same. You’re also exposing your company to legal liability, since they can be subject to fines and penalties for allowing you to do that. For what it’s worth, the whole set-up might be illegal. You said you get comp time instead of overtime, so I want to make sure you know that in the U.S. it’s illegal to pay non-exempt workers overtime in comp time instead of in money. The exception is if the comp time is taken in the same work week that it was earned in. For example, if you work nine hours on Monday and take an hour of comp time on Tuesday to balance it out, and as a result your total hours for the week don’t go over 40, your company wouldn’t owe you overtime. But if you work nine hours on Monday and don’t take the comp time until a few weeks later, your company owes you overtime pay for all hours over 40 you worked in that original week. (Also, some states calculate overtime by the day instead of the week, meaning in those states you can’t even do the take-it-that-week plan.) It’s your prerogative if you prefer the comp time set-up and don’t plan to require your employer to follow the law … but in doing that, you’re making it harder for people like Jane who do rightly expect the company to meet its legal obligations to pay them. If it’s a problem that Jane refuses to be available outside of her scheduled hours, that’s something her manager should address with her. If the job requires occasional work outside of normal hours, they need to clearly explain that. (But then they also need to pay for that time. Any chance Jane is so rigid about never working outside of 9-5 because she knows she won’t be paid for it?) If you’re ending up with more than your fair share of the work because Jane refuses to stretch her hours and so people come to you instead, that’s something you should talk to your manager about as well. Maybe that means they talk to Jane about adjusting her availability (and paying her for it). Maybe it means that you get compensated at a higher rate in recognition of your greater contributions. I don’t know — but if it’s causing problems, that’s squarely in “talk to your boss” territory. Right now you’re framing this all as “Jane is out of sync with our corporate culture, and that culture works fine for the rest of us” … but when part of your culture is “we break the law,” that’s not really a good way to look at it. You may also like:an unreasonable tattoo policy, I went to a college run by a religion I no longer follow, and moremy employee says I have to give her longer breaks because she's a smokermy coworkers resent that my boss no longer yells at me { 335 comments }
I’m sick of being tokenized on International Women’s Day by Alison Green on March 6, 2025 A reader writes: I work for a large company that has several locations all over North America, and every year they have presentations that celebrate International Women’s Day. Sounds great – but in my office I am the only woman, and every year I find it incredibly awkward. We watch a presentation and then have a discussion. At some point, someone looks to me and says, “Jane, would like to comment?” I say something like how sometimes it can be difficult, etc. I am a confident, 51-year-old woman but I’m torn. I feel like I should embrace the presentation but I can’t help feeling like I’m under a giant flashing neon “WOMAN” sign. There’s no getting out of it so I’d love to hear how you would handle this. I answer this question — and three others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here. Other questions I’m answering there today include: Is it ever okay to lose it with an annoying coworker? Is liking a competitor’s post on LinkedIn a cardinal sin? Can I ask managers for their references? You may also like:my company interviewed a man for International Women’s Day, interviewing when I work in an adult business, and moremandatory flu shots at work, helping a coworker through an international flight, and moremy coworker trash-talks other women’s clothes, putting work expenses on a personal credit card, and more { 108 comments }
an open thread for federal workers (and others affected by all this) by Alison Green on March 6, 2025 Okay, federal workers and others affected by All This, you asked for an open thread to talk about what’s happening, and here it is. Have at it. You may also like:questions from federal workers who are currently under attackmy interview with Weekend Edition about the attack on federal workersmy rich friend is oblivious when he talks about money ... and I'm at a breaking point { 427 comments }
responding to a nosy coworker, is discussing a march too political for work, and more by Alison Green on March 6, 2025 It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go… 1. Was talking about a march for science too political for work? I’m hoping you can help settle a disagreement a friend and I are having about a situation that came up in my work today. I work as a physician at a large academic hospital, and my department had our monthly faculty meeting today. As part of the meeting, our department chair discussed the current state of NIH funding going to our department. We do a large amount of research and have a number of labs dependent on NIH grants that may be affected by the current administration. He told us that there is a march for science this Friday (they are being held simultaneously in cities all over the country) and suggested that anyone who is interested and able to attend should do so, but not to wear anything that would identify us as employees of this hospital or to give any comments that could be seen as being on behalf of the hospital. On a basic level, losing funding risks labs getting shut down and my colleagues losing their jobs. I would argue that most, if not all, of us work here because of the reputation of this institution and the research performed here is a big part of that. (Trust me, we get paid less than we would at many other similar hospitals because we believe in what we do). My friend thinks that this was wrong for my chair to do because it is mixing politics in a professional environment. I see this as the chair providing us with information about the situation and encouraging us to advocate on behalf of our hospital, colleagues, patients, and research. What do you think? (I’m planning to march.) I’m with you. Your chair was providing information that many of you would find relevant to your jobs, and was also providing info you might not have had otherwise (to not identify yourself as employees of the hospital or appear to be speaking on its behalf). “Don’t mix politics in a professional environment” applies when it’s something like announcing a campaign rally for a candidate or promoting a pro-choice march if your jobs had nothing to do with reproductive health care. It doesn’t apply when the issue in question is so tightly entwined with your labs’ ability to survive. 2. How are these layoffs happening so quickly? I used to work at a large NGO that receives a lot of government funding. With the recent administration change, I’ve seen many of my old colleagues, including many who work in non-government-funded positions, announce that they’ve been laid off. How can these layoffs be happening so quickly? It seems like within one week, funding that took months to secure has vanished. Is the funding truly gone? Or are these companies using this as a reason to let people go? Plus, how can it be affecting non-government-funded positions so quickly? I thought WARN notices were required before eliminating jobs. Yes, it can happen that quickly (and is). First, while a position may not be directly government-funded, it can depend on grants or other sources of funding that have government funding somewhere in the chain. Second, some funders are changing their funding priorities in response to the new administration’s actions. Third, making adjustments in one area can affect a different area; for example, an organization might realize it’s going to lose $X in funding over the next year so they’re reconfiguring staffing and budgets now in order to prioritize programs A and B, even though that will mean cutting programs C and D. The WARN Act requires most employers with 100 or more employees to provide 60 days notice if they’re laying off 50 or more people at once or to pay the equivalent amount of time in severance. If they have fewer than 100 employees or they’re not laying off 50+ people, it wouldn’t be in effect. 3. Responding to a nosy coworker My coworker is well-meaning and big-hearted but doesn’t have a lot of personal boundaries. She shares a lot about her own personal life issues such as past family drama and medical issues, also shares personal life and medical issues of her children and husband, and has even shared very personal information from coworkers. I’ve also noticed her tendency to not just overshare, but pry a bit as well. For example, I had to share the news of a recent death of a distant coworker we did some work with (relevant to our jobs) and she demanded to know who I heard it from (really not relevant). Overall, I like her but she can be really off the wall with certain comments at times. Today, I sent my team a notification letting them know I’d be stepping out for a dentist appointment for my regular, twice-a-year cleaning. After that, she sent me a private message along the lines of, “We both have more medical appointments than the rest of the team! I’m not trying to pry — you don’t have to share any details — but I’m sending thoughts and prayers and wanted to make sure you’re okay!” Not only is this a weird comment, but, frankly, I don’t! This year I had a normal annual physical, two dentist appointments, and then the occasional “thing” that might come up for anybody, like seeing an allergist this year. That’s pretty much it. We have a pretty casual work culture where we’re salaried and free to take off for appointments as long as our work is done, so I’m wondering if she’s confusing personal appointments (car appointments, etc.) for medical appointments? I don’t always give details when I step away for an appointment so she may be assuming what the term “appointment” means. I responded with a quick “Hey thanks but I’m healthy, just good about getting my checkups!” and moved on. But I would love to hear if there’s a better way to handle coworkers bringing up something like this and setting good boundaries. Do I ignore? Eyebrow raise and say, “How odd, what makes you say something like that?” (I’m not sure she’d pickup on that level of subtly.) Go nuclear and say, “Whoa, that’s way inappropriate”? We have a cordial but distant relationship on the whole, mainly on my part because of her tendency to overshare or gossip. Given that, although this was definitely crossing a serious boundary, it hasn’t been a persistent issue and I’m not sure how strong of a response something like that would require. Nah, your response was fine. It allowed you to just quickly move on rather than getting in a discussion of boundaries with her, which is a fine choice to make (unless you want to get into it with her). Sometimes the key with people like this is to just studiously not take the bait. So you also could have just ignored her message entirely (particularly since she said she wasn’t trying to pry! let’s pretend to take her at her word). 4. Should I address a rumor about my company being awful? I am a payroll specialist who processes payroll for over 1,000 electricians. Today I heard that there is a rumor going around one of our largest sites that my company lays people off after 90 days to avoid paying out any sick time (field employees can accrue and use up to 40 hours per year, but can’t use it until their 91st day of employment). This is not true! We are a leading electrical contractor in our state and, honestly, the time and resources it takes to onboard employees would hardly make it financially sensible to be laying people off willy-nilly. Not to mention getting such an unethical practice like this past the union! What I heard specifically was this: a site administrator told me “I heard someone say…,” meaning a current employee. In my experience, these things spread like wildfire among the crew(s). And the admin seemed genuinely relieved when I told her that it wasn’t true so I’m afraid people are actually believing it! Should I say something? I have a good relationship with both my manager and our director of field personnel. Should I tell them what I heard? I don’t think there’s enough here that you really need to act on it … but if you’re concerned that there’s misinformation out there, there’s nothing wrong with sharing that concern with your manager and/or the field personnel director and letting them decide if they want to address it. Just be careful to specify exactly what you heard, so it’s clear that you’re not hearing it from multiple people (which doesn’t mean multiple people don’t believe it — maybe they do — but you don’t want to overstate what you actually know). 5. Can I be told to use PTO for partial-day sick leave when I’m exempt? I’m a salaried exempt computer programmer working from home, which means sometimes I have the luxury of working a few hours beyond the weekly 40 when inspiration strikes. Yesterday, I wasn’t feeling well so I stopped working at about 10 am. My boss asked today if I was going to file for PTO or if I’d be making it up. I’ve read your post here to make sure I was right about the FLSA. It’s come up before, but I’m not sure he believed the bit about how working any part of a week means getting paid for the full week. Anyway, he’s a good supervisor and we have a friendly relationship, but how do I tell him he’s wrong about this? I asked an AI and it said my company could require that I take PTO when I’m sick, but that doesn’t seem right — so I thought I’d ask a real intelligence. The AI got it right. As an exempt worker, you need to be paid your full salary when you work any part of a week (with some narrow exceptions, like your first and last week at a job), but that’s is only about pay. It doesn’t have anything to do with docking time from your PTO balance, and your company can still require you to use PTO for time that you miss. It’s pretty common for companies to do that, particularly when you’re missing nearly an entire day of work. (I’d consider it nickel-and-diming you if they told you to use PTO for an hour here and an hour there when you’re regularly working extra hours, but in this case you missed nearly a full day of work so it’s not that outrageous.) Related: my manager is nickeling and diming me on vacation time while I’m working 27 days in a row You may also like:does my emergency make me look like a flake, discussing salary with friends, and moremy coworkers keep discussing private business in front of me as if I'm not thereis a reminder to vote too political? { 267 comments }
the torn-down sign, the committed decorator, and other stories of shared work space gone awry by Alison Green on March 5, 2025 Last week we talked about shared space / hot-desking horror stories and here are 10 of my favorites that you shared. 1. The torn-down sign We have a bank of shared desks which aren’t actually general-use hot desks, but hot desks specific to our team. However, as we’re often out and about supporting other colleagues or delivering training out in the field, we’re usually only in one day a week. People realized this and started using our desks as hot desks, and all our equipment gradually failed/vanished, and when we DID come in, there wouldn’t be any desks available. So we put up signs. One of the other people came in when a colleague and I were in a meeting elsewhere on site but set up at our desks, and about half an hour after the signs went up. When we got out of the meeting, he’d torn the sign down that was at the desk where he was sat, put it face down on the desk, then outright denied it when questioned. No one believed his lie, but our manager had a word with him and put up additional signage. He still sits at the desks apart from one day when the signs state are only for our team, but he refuses to speak to any of us. 2. The phone calls I am currently living through a desk sharing situation where we both need to work some of the same hours. This requires us to sit on opposite sides of the same desk with laptops. No one can use the monitors for fear of it being “unfair.” That’s bad enough, but it gets worse. Not my setup luckily, but nearby, multiple times per day a neighboring coworker will make or answer very private personal calls literally sitting at a desk a foot from their desk mate. Topics have been: child support (that wasn’t paid), screaming at people she believes to be stealing from her, and some very NSFW inappropriate comments thrown in (loudly). Meanwhile, her desk mate is attempting to be on work calls. My coworker (her desk mate) has requested a move but is currently stuck there with her two days a week. 3. The tickets I have an assigned desk, but I only work in the office one day a week. The other four days, I work from home. That means my desk is available four days week for use as a hot desk for folks who don’t have an assigned desk. One gentleman (“E”) who knows my schedule uses my desk as a hot desk frequently. And apparently runs into just an unfathomable number of technical issues. I have lost track of the number of help desk tickets E has opened for the equipment at my desk. But since it is my equipment, I am the one who has to field the help desk techs when they attempt to troubleshoot. Help desk techs often drop by on while I’m in the office to troubleshoot the technical issue du jour. We are, strangely, never able to replicate the issues E claims to experience. Often times, when I close the help desk ticket, nothing else ever comes of it. Occasionally, he’ll re-open the ticket. Once, a help desk tech wrote down very detailed instructions on how to resolve the USER-CAUSED issue E was experiencing at my desk. I left them on the keyboard for E to read the next day. E sent me an IM on Friday telling me he’d thrown the instructions in the trash (???). With all the issues he seems to experience using my desk, I’ve often wondered why he doesn’t just hot desk in one of the five other open desks in my cube share. The world may never know. 4. The photos Coworker #1 shared a desk with Coworker #2, who was going through a drawn out break-up with Coworker #3. We were never quite sure if the relationship was officially over. One day Coworker #1 found multiple photos cut up into little pieces in the desk (our building had a photobooth that printed physical photos). Coworker #1 realized they were all photos that included Coworker #3. That wasn’t the official end of their break-up, but it did add to the lore as they continued to go off and on for years. 5. The committed decorator I used to work at a place where there was a morning shift and a night shift, so everyone shared a desk with one other person. I brought in a little 8×10 picture and hung it up on one half of the little area because I needed something to look at (no windows), but didn’t want to overwhelm my desk mate. The night shift guy across from me had no such consideration. The three little walls of his desk area were absolutely COVERED in stuff – photos, a framed Nickelodeon Magazine with Larissa Oleynik on the cover (when she was a child on Alex Mack), the slipcover of an X-Files DVD box set, the sticker they put on the corner of a television set to tell you its screen size … just the most bizarre stuff. His deskmate finally complained and he was told he could only decorate one half of the space. So when I came in the next morning, he had meticulously measured the space so he was taking up exactly half. At Christmas, he brought in a family photo album and left it open to a different page every day. Then he brought in one child-size dress-up Cinderella high heel. This plus many, many, MANY other things led to him eventually being fired. 6. The pile When I was hired on at a small social enterprise, my desk was pushed up against my boss’s desk, back-to-back. It meant that we sat directly facing each other all day. I’m a tidy person and never have clutter on my desk, while my boss was a borderline hoarder. She had multiple towers of loose papers, at least 15 tchotchkes, and an extensive nature collection that included feathers, skulls, and a dried bear poop that she liked because it had seeds in it. There was almost no visible desk surface. Within a day, her clutter had crept over the border and onto my desk. I ignored it, but the flow was unstoppable. By day 3, the slow-moving landslide of junk had taken over the back third of my desk. Since she wasn’t in that day to talk to her, I took all her junk off my desk and neatly piled it back on hers. The next morning she profusely apologized and said she would be more mindful, while commenting on how tidy and sterile my desk was. This became a pattern: throughout the workday, a paper stack would be nudged onto my desk, or an animal bone would fall from an overflowing basket onto my printer. I started propping up items to create a fence on the border, à la Dwight Schrute. Several times I politely talked to her about needing my desk to be free of clutter. Nothing worked. Every afternoon after she left, I would remove her items and neatly stack them back on her desk. Every morning she would apologize and continue the pattern. I could see her shame growing. About a year later we moved into a new “office” that she had built which was a log cabin with no indoor plumbing, heating, or cooling. There was an outhouse with no running water. I quit a few months later. 7. The unauthorized plant I was a “rover” at a bank where I was sent to new branches every day to cover for absences — basically a substitute bank teller and banker. One branch had a plant care service where these people would come in and tend to the plants which were, I guess, part of a contracted service. They’d water them, trim leaves, polish leaves, etc. They silently entered offices to avoid bothering the bankers. I was sitting in a lady’s office working when a plant lady stormed in pointing to a plant and demanding to know where it came from and that it wasn’t their plant and they don’t care for unauthorized plants. I shrugged and told her this isn’t my office nor is this my branch. I’m just sitting here for now. She came back at least twice more to actually reprimand me, essentially her company’s client, and demand answers. It was the strangest thing to happen to me up to that point. I left a note for the plant owner that she had better watch her back with these plant ladies. 8. The log-ins Years ago, I worked at an office where most of us were in the field all day, and we shared two desktop computers for data entry, payroll, and other admin tasks. One of my coworkers was zealous about cyber security, so he updated the desktops to set very secure passwords (long strings of letters, numbers, and special characters). Unfortunately that meant that none of us could remember the passwords, so they were written on post-it notes taped to the desks (very secure!). The real trouble began when he transferred to another office and one of the post-its was lost. I don’t know if anyone was ever able to log into the data entry computer again. 9. The desk walk After I finished my masters, I considered moving from SmallState University to Bigwig University for a Ph.D. (my advisor was retiring and there was nobody else in my area to work with) when I visited the campus, the grad student who was showing me around brought me to the grad student office – a room filled with so many desks that he had to walk over one person’s desk to get to his. I changed my research focus and stayed SmallStateU, where I had a three person office and a couch. 10. The Pop Tarts I was an expensive consultant back in the dot.com days, brought into a medium sized company that was creating early internet shopping software. They had the full dot.com culture, including lots of free food. What they did not have was a lot of space. My desk was a laptop sitting on top of a giant case of brown-sugar cinnamon Pop Tarts in the middle of the breakroom. I’m the adaptable sort – at the rate they were paying me, I had to be – so this was fine. The only challenge was that whenever someone wanted a Pop Tart, I had to lift my laptop and let them into the cardboard case so they could grab some. This generally happened about seven times per day. On the other hand, I ended up with a 13% raise from that assignment, and I got all the Pop Tarts I could ever want, so I guess it was worth it. You may also like:religious decor in a shared work space, yoga pants at a team-building event, and moreemployer sends out lurid details about crimes committed by coworkers or customerscan I leave my job after one year if I committed to more? { 185 comments }
update: at what point can I report my inappropriate and inflammatory coworker? by Alison Green on March 5, 2025 Remember the letter-writer wondering at what point they could report their inappropriate and inflammatory coworker? Here’s the update. I finally quit so now I can update. One of the details I was obfuscating before was that we’re both student workers in our 20s at a post-secondary institution. Unfortunately, I couldn’t apply too much of your advice because things got CRAZY basically immediately after, but I still greatly appreciated the advice and the sanity check from you and everyone who commented. My question got posted the week before U.S. election day. The first words Kevina said when she walked in the office that Monday were, “I’m preparing for election day by stocking up on ammo!” She then spent the rest of that day and the next giving the impression that she was looking forward to someone “trying something” so she would have the opportunity to use said ammunition. She also said something along the lines of “buying the good kind that destroys flesh” with a weird smile. And said the quickest way to clean up our office decorations would be to “set them on fire and let it spread,” also with a weird smile. So I pulled my boss aside on Wednesday and basically said what I said above, that I’ve taken school shooting and workplace violence prevention training and I’m feeling very uncomfortable and like if I didn’t say anything I’d be potentially culpable. My boss seems appalled and concerned and agrees Kevina isn’t the most stable person so the workplace violence concern isn’t unreasonable. Off we go to HR where she handles the talking but is vague and HR says that they’re a satellite location and just do paperwork but since she’s a student we should go talk to the dean of students. We go to the dean of students’ office and are told that she’s not there today and my boss says she’ll just text her. We go back to the office and get back to work. End of the day, my boss sends me a message basically saying that I (me, the part-time student worker, of course) have three avenues of reporting this and says she can help me with one of them the next day if I really want her to. I say, “Please help me with this tomorrow morning,” and she says, “Of course.” GUESS WHO ISN’T ON CAMPUS THE NEXT DAY! My boss had a meeting on a different campus and then didn’t respond to me asking what was happening until the office was closed that day. Turns out she didn’t text anyone even though she said she would AND she was going on vacation the next day and wouldn’t be back until the Monday after next. So the next day, I call the campus police and they don’t care because it wasn’t specific intent to do harm and I guess repeatedly stating she wants to bring a gun on campus doesn’t mean anything. They didn’t even want her name. but I can call them back if she actually brings a gun. So then I go back to the dean of students’ office and tell all this to someone there and they say they will report it but investigations take months and blah blah blah. So I keep working, ignoring this coworker who is much quieter than normal, probably because my boss said something to her again. And then she starts complaining that a student in one of her classes made a complaint against her to the dean of students’ office because, for a class presentation, she acted out killing herself with a butter knife to stand in for a real one and that made them uncomfortable. According to Kevina, the professor had okayed this demonstration so I kinda get the upset at the complaint, but then Kevina starts talking about how she’s worried the person who made the complaint will attack her and how she and her mom want to get a lawyer so they can find the identity of the person who complained. Because people are so sensitive these days and you never know what they’ll do. So I went back to the dean of students’ office and said that this is concerning to me as someone who has made a complaint since all of Kevina’s gun fantasies she talks about are her “defending herself” and she’s making herself out to be a victim here. Nothing comes from that complaint either that I can see, but I was able to change my schedule so my shifts never overlapped with hers again. After that, she made a huge scene at an all-staff event specifically to embarrass one (full-time, non-student) coworker. That coworker then ALSO made a complaint against her with a different dean. Other coworker says that, as a result, Kevina will have to do some sensitivity training and might have this noted in her file. So Kevina still has her job. The other coworker finally was able to transfer to another department, so I probably won’t be able to get any updates on this situation unless Kevina ends up on the news. Thinking about writing this update kept me sane while continuing to work there and got me to today, moving onto my next opportunity which will hopefully transition into a full-time job after I get my degree. You may also like:at what point can I report my inappropriate and inflammatory coworker?my wife says my relationship with my coworker is inappropriateI had to quit a job because of aggressive nesting geese { 184 comments }
my company says we can’t have a women-only event by Alison Green on March 5, 2025 A reader writes: I’m facing an issue similar to one you’ve addressed before, but with the current political climate around DEI initiatives, I’m concerned your advice might have shifted. I’m a woman in leadership at a U.S.-based company. We’ve been planning a company-sponsored off-site event for women in IT, inviting anyone who identifies as a woman. The agenda and speakers were carefully selected to foster career growth and camaraderie for women who work in tech. Initially, the company was supportive, but now Legal says with current political goings-on there’s too much risk to limiting attendance to only women. To move forward, we would need to open the event to all employees in the department. In my view, companies have less legal responsibility to care about DEI after recent federal actions, but the fundamentals haven’t changed. Some men would be sour, but women in tech remain marginalized and the event is worthwhile. Still, given Legal’s position, we have to pivot. Our options seem to be rebranding the event to make it open to all IT employees while still focusing on topics that resonate with women, or canceling it altogether. I’m struggling with how to preserve the event’s real value without losing its core purpose. I’m also struggling with how to approach this with the women organizing, I stand with them but this isn’t the hill I wish to die on today. I’d really appreciate any advice or insights you might have. You can still put on an event that focuses on women in IT without limiting who’s invited. Make it clear that everyone is welcome, but the topics will center around ways to recruit and support women in IT, a traditionally male-dominated field. Anyone can support and work on those goals. In fact, having male allies and discussing specific things they can do in support of those goals is a good thing. If your legal team won’t even let you do that, then you have a much bigger problem — but it sounds like they’re just saying the invitations can’t be women-only, which is fine and doesn’t need to impede you at all. And so people know: the Trump executive order on DEI defines prohibited conduct as discrimination or preferences based on race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, or national origin — which was already illegal, and has been illegal since the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Most of the rest of the executive orders only apply to the federal government itself and/or to federal contractors, not to other workplaces. It is still legal for private employers to address barriers and work to provide a level playing field for employees and candidates. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, the main federal work anti-discrimination law, remains in effect and can only be rescinded by Congress. You may also like:fired employee says he’s coming to a work event, employee never saves things on our shared drive, and morethe event I volunteered for wants too much of my time, company is becoming more conservative, and morepushed into a work event because I don’t have kids, tickling as team-building, and more { 192 comments }
coworker keeps a wall of embarrassing photos of former coworkers, boss says staff absences are too high, and more by Alison Green on March 5, 2025 It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go… 1. My coworker keeps a wall of embarrassing photos of former coworkers I started a new job at a start-up a few months ago and one of my coworkers, who I work closely with, has a wall next to his desk where he has pinned up half a dozen enlarged photos of everyone who has left the company recently. He finds an old school photo, or them in a costume, or with braces, whatever he thinks is funny. As soon as someone puts in their two weeks, their photo goes up on the wall. He recently got told by HR to take the photos down after someone complained. Everyone in my corner of the office is vocally on his side and against the reporter. They all seem to agree that the photos are all in good fun and shouldn’t be something to get upset about. They joke about making everyone take down family photos to show the reporter how silly they are. I have had a neutral opinion of the photo wall so far, but now I am on the side of the reporter. If I were to resign, I definitely would not like the idea of my photo on that wall. I also don’t want to say anything since the team is very chummy and I’m trying to fit in as the newbie. What should I do? Are the photos appropriate or not? That’s a really odd thing for him to do, and HR was right to tell him to stop. It wouldn’t be a big deal if he did it once or twice as a good-natured joke with resigning employees who he was friends with, but it’s his system that he does every time someone leaves? He’s in the wrong to make a big deal of being told to stop, and the coworkers who are outraged that he was told to stop are being ridiculous too. If it’s “all in good fun,” then they’d surely want to be sensitive to anyone who doesn’t want to be included, right? The fact that they’re not says that it’s not really “in good fun” at all. But as for what you should do as a new person, it’s okay to just stay out of it! If someone directly asks what you think, you can shrug and say, “Eh, if someone was upset by it, it doesn’t seem that weird that the company told him to stop.” 2. Manager says staff absences are too high I work at a company where each employee receives PTO that can be used for sick or personal reasons. PTO requires a doctor’s note or written explanation for absences longer than three consecutive days. Each person also has a separate bank of vacation time. The amount of paid time off we are given is typical for our industry. Most people use all or most of their vacation time and some of their PTO as needed. While various employees have had medical issues and/or leaves of absences over the years, I don’t think anyone abuses the system. It doesn’t seem like anyone has excessive absences. One of my managers, Dan, disagrees. He has made several comments in the past year to indicate that employee absences are too high (within the allotted time, he admits, but still too high in his opinion). He called a meeting this week specifically to discuss attendance. Dan feels absences are to blame for a big issue we’re having, and he asked us to brainstorm ways to increase attendance without spending any money (insert eye roll). I disagree. The issue we’re having has about 10 causes — half could be solved by management with moderate effort (like reworking the production schedule), and half are out of our control (such as industry-wide supply issues). Attendance may be a minor cause but not enough to warrant the time and effort we are now dedicating to “solve” it. It feels like scapegoating, putting the blame on us rather than attempting to address the other causes. However, Dan is senior management and well-liked by the CEO/owner, so no one ever challenges him. No one spoke up in this meeting, although several colleagues later told me they were shocked and upset. Even if attendance was the sole cause of the issue, my opinion is that if people are not exceeding their allotted PTO and vacation time, then they are within their right to take the time given to them. Am I wrong? If I’m correct, then do you have any suggestions on how to tell him that? Dan does not take well to anyone questioning his opinion, so it would need to be carefully worded. We are meeting again soon to hear what (free!) ideas we’ve come up with. You are correct. If the company offers paid time off, it’s part of people’s compensation and they should take it, and managers should expect they will take it. Dan sounds like A Problem, so I’m not sure there will be any benefit to trying to set him straight (as opposed to just letting him continue to wring his hands over the dreadful problem of people using their time off). But if you want to, you could try saying, “The amount of time off in our benefits package is consistent with industry norms and people obviously need time off in order not to burn out, so if you think there’s a coverage issue, we should look at increasing staffing.” After delivering this bad news to him, you could then immediately pivot to other solutions to whatever he’s reacting to, like changes to the production schedule and planning differently for supply issues. If he starts actively interfering with people’s ability to use their time off or making people feel they’ll be penalized if they do, that’s time to bring in HR, framing it as “not allowing people to use their promised benefits.” 3. When I ask my team for updates, should I share my own as the boss? I am a new department head and would like to introduce a weekly check-in during our department meeting to ask everyone what they are currently working on and what they accomplished in the past week. Should I include myself in this process and answer these questions as well for transparency reasons? My work is much more abstract than that of my team members, and many of my tasks are repetitive (meetings, etc.). My progress is often harder to define because it largely depends on the progress of my team. Yes. It doesn’t need to be comprehensive, but you should have at least one thing to share each week about what you’re working on, ideally something that will be relevant to at least some of the team. That said … do you have a good reason for introducing these meetings? You very well might! Sometimes it’s really important for reasons of communication or team cohesion that people regularly hear about what others on their team are working on. Sometimes, though, this kind of meeting isn’t a great use of people’s time and can feel like something that’s happening because the manager vaguely thought it sounded like a good idea but can’t tie it to any real impact on people’s work. I’m not assuming it won’t be useful in your case — it often is! — just urging you to make sure you know what results you’re looking for from it (and how you’ll know if it is or isn’t getting you those results), and can communicate that to your team too. 4. Measles and traveling for work conferences I am attending a national conference next month and, given the current measles outbreak, I asked my doctor about the need for a booster since my last (and only) MMR vaccination was decades ago. My doctor did recommend that anyone with an immunization history like mine get a booster, which I did. We have many other employees also attending national conferences, and I wonder how much we can say to encourage them to check with their own doctors about a booster during this outbreak. Would there be any liability for not mentioning it? Your company can absolutely encourage people to make sure they’re up-to-date on vaccinations, and can cite the measles outbreak specifically and suggest people check with their doctors to see if they need any boosters and/or can share info like this from the CDC (or this piece from NPR, which does a better job of answering “do I need a booster as an adult?”). But there’s no legal liability to not mentioning it, either. 5. Start date coincides with a planned vacation I’m hoping to get a job, and there’s a good chance I’m a lead candidate. They want overlap with the existing job holder and the new person, which sounds great to me. Problem is, that person’s last day is the Friday before my kid’s spring break, for which we already have paid plans for Sunday through Wednesday. Do I bring this up at all now, or wait until I have an actual offer? And then, is “doing the right thing” offering to come back that Thursday, which would cause some childcare complications, or is it reasonable to ask for the whole week off? To clarify, this would be the first week of me in the role flying solo. There is a part-time assistant. This is in the middle of a big organization-wide project. In my current job, I’ve had to work every single vacation I’ve ever taken, near or far. I’m trying to get away from that. This organization doesn’t have that culture, but this timing really stinks. Wait until you have the offer. Then explain you have pre-paid vacation plans for that week and that normally you’d suggest starting after that but you know they’d like you to have overlap with the person leaving, and so you’re hoping you could simply take that week unpaid, so that it works out for everyone. I wouldn’t start by offering the Thursday return date; wait and see how they respond. If they seem worried about it, at that point you can offer the Thursday return date as a compromise. It’s great to move away from working every vacation, but this this is a different set of circumstances — this is trying to work something out when you’re brand new to a job and wouldn’t normally expect to have a full week off right after starting. Related: everything you need to know about time off when you start a new job You may also like:suspended for Covid-related absences, cost of gas is making my commute impossible, and morecoworker saw embarrassing content on my phone, my dad keeps responding to my employee on Facebook, and moremy manager yells at her boss through my office wall { 376 comments }