open thread – January 18-19, 2019 by Alison Green on January 18, 2019 It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers. * If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue. You may also like:why are employers so rude and inconsiderate to job hunters?I'm hypersensitive to criticism -- how do I fix this?my company asks personal, invasive questions about your childhood and adolescence { 1,837 comments }
Tara S.* January 18, 2019 at 11:02 am How do y’all feel about the stereotype “millennials don’t like to talk on the phone”? As someone smack dab in the middle of the cohort, it bothers me because my older coworkers will complain about it, along the lines of “kids these days,” but also assume I won’t talk on the phone? I’m about 50/50 on if I’ll call someone at work vs email, but when I try and tell my older bosses/coworkers that I’m more than happy to use the phone, they always kind of ask a second time, like, are you sure?? On the other hand, I have lots of friends my age for whom this stereotype is true! Their voicemail inboxes are always full and it drives me nuts and they talk all the time about hating talking on the phone. Where do you guys land on this?
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:05 am I don’t know, because “millennials” is such a huge group, and I’ve also seen people apply it to anyone under 30 (even though many people over 30 are still millennials, and most people under 30 are not millennials). I think any stereotypes are damaging, but I also don’t see how not wanting to talk on the phone is some kind of character flaw. Some people just don’t like it. And, for some of us (I’m not a millennial, by the way), “liking to talk on the phone” really depends on context. If it’s for pleasure (chatting with a family member I like or a friend), I love talking on the phone. If it’s for work, I hate it. If we need to talk about something, let’s talk about it in person (phone is an undesirable backup, in case we’re miles apart from each other). Otherwise, let’s just email.
Bend & Snap* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am I’m not a millenial and I hate the phone. There’s really no reason to stereotype here; lots of people don’t like the phone/prefer other modes of communication.
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am I am mid to early GenX and I really prefer not to talk on the phone (because you cannot do that in the bathroom, obviously ;) ) My millennial son chats with his millennial friends and gf on the phone all the damn time and I have no idea how he does it.
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 11:35 am I guess it is worth mentioning that I did not have a phone in my place of residence until I was 29. So, I did not grow up with a phone. When I had to talk on the phone growing up, it was from a pay phone, and was either a long-distance call, where you had to wrap it up quickly, because the phone ate the coins really fast; or an emergency call. Chatting with a friend for an hour from a pay phone wasn’t a thing anyone did. So that might be why I do not feel comfortable having long phone chats.
Mimi Me* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am Was coming here to say this. I am a phone person. I have friends that are the same age as I am who are not. We are in our 40’s. My daughter, who is 13, has a friend who loves to talk on the phone and hates texting. She says it’s because her fingers don’t work as fast as her mouth and sometimes she has a lot of things to say. :) I don’t think it’s an age thing…I think it’s a personality thing.
Jennifer Juniper* January 18, 2019 at 6:41 pm Thank goodness! If you read too many articles, you get the impression that all millennials/Gen Z people only text and refuse to speak to anyone IRL.
Maeve* January 20, 2019 at 2:28 pm I don’t think you can group together millennials and gen z at all in their relationship with technology. As a millennial (I’m 31), how teens are using their phones 100% mystifies me.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain* January 18, 2019 at 11:39 am Me too. I’m out of even a generous reading of the millennial range and I have always hated the phone. At work it’s usually because it interrupts whatever I’m doing — I’m almost never working on whatever the caller wants to discuss — and then I have to furiously write notes in order to remember what needs to be done when I do move on to their project. Just send me an email and it’s already in writing so I can refer back to it. THE WORST is when they try to dictate text over the phone (I’m in graphic design so they’ll start with “paragraph 2, second column, it needs to say…” and that’s where I stop them and redirect them to either make a note on the PDF proof, or email me the text. Taking dictation is so 1960s.
Bend & Snap* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am I get this via email too. I send a word doc, they reply with a text wall in an email. EDIT IN THE DOCUMENT. It’s 2019.
HeyThere* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm I recently had someone print out a document, make handwritten changes/notes on it, and then TAKE A PICTURE WITH THEIR PHONE to send it back to me. I’m still shaking my head over that one.
Quackeen* January 18, 2019 at 2:44 pm Reminds me of a former boss who would print out an Excel spreadsheet, then do everything by hand/calculator. As in, let’s mark up the spreadsheet for how many of X there are, and handwrite that figure off to the side. Hmmm, let’s count how many of Y there are, ticking them off with my pen, and handwriting that off to the side. So inefficient, and so much potential for error!
Another Anon* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm My boss does this cause he’s not great with computers. Drives me crazy especially cause we work in law and he’ll send me edits on a 20 page complaint via iPhone pictures, each in a separate email…. kills me
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 3:16 pm It’s often easier to annotate by hand, especially if you don’t have the tools (or don’t know how to use them). I say this as someone for whom the computer is the first step for documents.
Free Meerkats* January 18, 2019 at 3:46 pm I have the tools. I know how to use the tools (first computer was a TRS Model-80…) But I think and write better with a pen in my hand. Even if I do the first draft of something on the computer, I’ll do the editing by hand on a printed copy.
a non non* January 18, 2019 at 10:29 pm Yes, I agree. It also just helps to do things in a different format. I’m periodically editing my dissertation right now through the computer, pdf annotations on an ipad and printed out versions, because you just catch different things that way.
TardyTardis* January 28, 2019 at 4:21 pm I’m a Grumpy Old Boomer, and it’s so much easier to do all this on the spreadsheet. I had a coworker once who ran a paper tape adding up sums at the bottom of a spreadsheet column. Arrgh! (I did show her the shortcut how to sum the whole column, and eventually, she stopped doing the tape).
Emily K* January 18, 2019 at 3:36 pm Oh man…I had a very junior employee, who was working on a project that was all his own but had to be hosted on an online system I admin, send me a cell phone photo of handwritten text that he wanted me to use to create this online resource. I’m sorry, that won’t be possible.
Shop girl* January 18, 2019 at 7:08 pm What’s the difference between that and email. I do most of my correspondence with my staff theough text.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain* January 18, 2019 at 7:45 pm I’m going to guess, since I’m not HeyThere, but these days, there is absolutely no reason to print out a digital document, handwrite changes to it, then scan (or take a photo) it back to a digital form to either email or text it back — that’s 3 steps more than necessary. Just edit it on the original digital file and email it back.
Lavender Menace* January 18, 2019 at 10:28 pm It’s that the edits aren’t in the document themselves, so HeyThere now has to go through your picture, find all of the places where you made changes, and then change them in the doc. It’s much easier on everyone if people just edit the doc directly.
Kate R* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm This is where I land too. I’m on the upper side of millennial according to the Pew Research Center’s definition, and I don’t love talking on the phone but don’t really have a problem doing phone meetings (I work from home, so they are pretty essential). But I HATE when my boss tells me to call someone instead of emailing them with a question. The might not even be at their desk or they could be in the middle of something that now I’m interrupting. I also hate when people start dictating detailed instructions over the phone. I’m trying my best to take notes, but if would really be so much easier to just send an email.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 3:19 pm What I find often works well is a conversation followed up with an email. So I’ll tell someone “let’s discuss, but send me an email with the specifics.” It provides a simple way to handle background, context and big picture portions while not requiring detailed note taking.
De Minimis* January 18, 2019 at 12:04 pm I’m GenX but did a career change to where I re-started my career around the same time as many millenials. I have the same thing about the phone, I tend to view it as an archaic technology much of the time. E-mail is way more time efficient and is much better as far as documentation. I feel that it’s also better as far as being able to give a well-thought out, useful response.
Kathleen_A* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am There apparently is some actual data that supports the thesis that “millennials” (the definition seems a bit loosey-goosey) are, as a group, more adverse to talking on the phone than other groups. Of course, my maternal grandmother loathed talking on the phone, so it’s clearly not just millennials. But there is some actual data.
Snark* January 18, 2019 at 12:35 pm Is it just that we’ve come up with alternatives that are functionally better for a lot of tasks older folks have just always used phones for?
Kathleen_A* January 18, 2019 at 1:02 pm That’s my impression. The most recent survey I found was from December 2018, and it’s focused on the reasons why millennials avoid phone calls (a slightly different emphasis), and the overall reason, according to the survey, is “People have grown to want a fast and results-driven form of communication that fits their schedule.”
Washi* January 18, 2019 at 1:41 pm Yeah, I will happily talk on the phone when it makes the most sense, but if you just asked me “what do you prefer to use, phone or email” without any additional context, I would probably say email. Not because I’m scared of the phone, but because it’s less intrusive and therefore tends to be my default.
Kathleen_A* January 18, 2019 at 1:52 pm I have known people – not exclusively millennials but I’d say it’s more common with them – who stick to text and email even when a quick phone call would be much better. If all you need to do is send a sentence or two and only need a sentence or two in return, texts and email are the way to go. (This is particularly fab if you need to send those 1-2 sentences to two or more people.) If you actually need to have a dialog with somebody, it’s often more efficient to do it by phone. But I have known people who will avoid the phone even when it is easily their best option. I am not sure how strong the data is concerning that, but if I find something, I’ll let you know!
Fibchopkin* January 18, 2019 at 12:05 pm I HATE work phonecalls rather than emails! I think I’m just barely a millennial? 34? So a cusp millennial, maybe? When I’m at work- I’m BUSY. I have 50 things going on at any one time, and pulling myself out of a project to take a phonecall can throw me completely off my game. Like- get out of project mindset, engage in call, solve call problem (most likely) add residual call stuff to the to-do list at the appropriate category of importance, then try to re-engage project mode, and by the time you get go going again, it’s probably time for lunch or a meeting. Sending email or an IM is just so much more efficient and less jarring. Plus, it leaves an easy paper trail/reminder because you can read the email/IM, and if it’s not urgent, you can mark it as unread and get flagged to take care of it after you’re done with the important thing you’re currently working on.
Snark* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm Couldn’t agree more. I don’t want my focus interrupted and I don’t want to do that to anyone else.
A Penguin of Ill Repute* January 18, 2019 at 1:44 pm You’re actually not on the cusp at all; by the Pew Research definition, it’s anyone born between 1981 and 1996. So you’re in the older portion but you missed the edge by a couple years still.
Anita Brayke* January 18, 2019 at 1:48 pm OMG, so much THIS!! I do not have time to talk on the phone! I do it, but I work MUCH more efficiently without the interruption. I’m 51, and I like family and friends type phone calls, but not work ones. I will say that occasionally, phone calls are the only way to solve a problem or communicate clearly, but not very often!
Emily K* January 18, 2019 at 3:48 pm I’m your age and for me there’s a big difference between an impromptu phone call that puts me on the spot, and a planned phone call that I can prepare for. Luckily the culture in my workplace is that it’s very common to chat or email someone and ask if they have time for a phone call today or in the next few days, along with a brief summary of what they’re trying to accomplish and what they need to discuss with you to accomplish it. The other person will say, “Sure, how about X time?” or “Sure, feel free to grab any of the open slots on my calendar. Talk to you then!” Those kind of phone calls don’t bother me much at all. I generally prefer vcon because I have some hearing damage and find it easier when I can also read lips (not to mention the benefit of non-verbal cues) but the phone is perfectly cromulent, as they say. I hate being interrupt by a phone call I hadn’t planned on having and have had no time to prepare for, unless it’s literally a 1-2 minute call to ask me something basic that I would definitely know off the top of my head. But I feel the same way about people who try to chat me for discussions that would be better handled by email or a pre-scheduled meeting that we have time to prep for, and people who try to drop by my office expecting a 15-minute-long nuanced conversation without giving me any heads-up to prepare thoughts or collect background info. Obviously, time-sensitive emergencies notwithstanding – I’m in the digital field so I’ll never 100% avoid being put on the spot without preparation, but there has to be a good reason to interrupt a productive activity to have a conversation that’s going to be less informative and effective than it could have been if I’d had time to prep for it.
TL -* January 18, 2019 at 9:20 pm I worked in a lab and thus always had to plan phone calls – if you called while I was in tissue culture or in the middle of a protocol, I literally couldn’t talk. (And the phone may not be answered.) So I either had phone calls in the first hour of my day if someone was lucky enough to catch me (which was admin tasks and emails anyways, so no problems being interrupted) or they scheduled so I would actually be able to talk. I’ve never minded phone calls for work – they’re generally to problem solve so much more efficient than emails anyways – but the phone has never been intrusive.
Seifer* January 18, 2019 at 12:36 pm When it comes to work, I’m indifferent to the phone, but I do vastly prefer it to someone just walking into my cube. There’s no escape when they come into my cube. PLEASE call me instead. In my personal life, I don’t mind. Sometimes it’s easier to call than send 45 texts. Plus, for the longest time I had this weirdly specific image of an adult in my mind, a woman juggling her phone and keys and groceries while trying to open her door, and the more that happens to me, the more I feel like I’m doing okay at this adulting thing.
millenial1* January 18, 2019 at 11:06 am Im a millennial and I definitely prefer email to a phone call. I prefer an email so that I have something in writing to refer to when preparing documentation or to follow up later. I’m more inclined to phone when something should be kept off the record or if I need an answer more urgently. That being said, I definitely check my voicemail and follow up always. If their voicemail is full that is just rude and poor ettiequte.
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am Also a millennial, definitely prefer email for the documentation reason. I’ll follow up a lot of phone calls with an email to make sure that the person has an additional way to contact me/documents/reference/etc.
otterbaby* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am Yep. The amount of times I’ve had to reference back and say “actually, we did discuss this and we did so on the 8th of November…” it’s invaluable to me in my line of work, even more so than a spoken conversation!
Elemeno P.* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am Yes, same here on all accounts. Different contexts require different responses. On a personal level, though, I really do hate talking on the phone. I’ll do it for work, but I avoid it in my daily life. Part of that is the distraction for people around me; I can have a quick text conversation in public or at work without bothering anyone, but I can’t have a personal call at my desk/in a crowded room without inconveniencing the people around me.
Snark* January 18, 2019 at 12:33 pm Exactly. I will call if that is necessary, and I call my mom and grandma and so on and enjoy those conversations….but for business purposes, email or messanging is where it’s at. I don’t like being interrupted by the phone or interrupting others, I don’t like making decisions without a record I can refer back to, I don’t like the ambiguity.
Sara B* January 18, 2019 at 2:37 pm Yes! If it’s something quick, like asking someone to let me know when they are out of a document so I can edit, I’ll call. If it’s something more detailed, I’ll just walk to their office. However, for certain topics and certain people, there is a definite CYA element and the reassurance of having things in writing. Having those conversations over the phone or in person have come back to bite me before, so I am careful to have the backup I need now.
Dittany* January 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm Yeah, same on wanting documentation. Unless someone is recording the conversation, spoken communication can be misinterpreted, forgotten, or “forgotten.” Written communication? Right in black and white. I also have auditory processing issues that sometimes make it difficult to parse what people are saying if I’m stressed or uncomfortable or there’s a lot of cross-talk going on elsewhere in the office.
AMD* January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am I was a slow adopter for texting, but now at 32 I greatly prefer conversations in text. It doesn’t help that most phone calls I get are scam calls.
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am I ignore most calls on my cell phone for this reason. When I was applying for jobs I’d save the HR number in my phone so I’d know to pick up.
Bunny Girl* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am I’m in the millennial category, and I don’t like to talk on the phone, but it’s honestly because I like to have stuff in writing that people say because people in my organization throw each other under the bus like no one’s business so I like having a record of what they said in exactly their own words from them directly. It’s sort of a joke between my manager and myself that I won’t do anything unless the requester signed something in blood (My manager gets it too!).
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I don’t like to talk on the phone, but it’s honestly because I like to have stuff in writing that people say because people in my organization throw each other under the bus like no one’s business so I like having a record of what they said in exactly their own words from them directly. Yes, this is really important. You can sort of do this with a phone call, but it’s not as good. After a phone call, you can email afterwards to say “Just so we have both have it in writing, this is what I took away from our phone call. Let me know if I missed anything critical.” If they respond, you have their response in writing. If they don’t respond, you have a record based on your perspective that went unchallenged. Still not quite as good, but it’s something. And, yeah, it creates extra work (phone call + email instead of just email).
I will be 33 later this year* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am THIS. Not for the reason you mentioned about people throwing each other under the bus but in my experience, it is best to get things in writing so that if there is a discrepancy, you can say “per the email below, X transpired” and provide actually proof vs “he said she said.”
Lis* January 18, 2019 at 1:03 pm Even without the throwing people under the bus thing I have had two people in a meeting genuinely believing opposite things were agreed in the meeting, I think they each zoned out at different points in the discussion. The minutes resulted in two replies of wait what? And everyone else saying “we did agree X” minutes for the win over a month of useless work from two contributors.
JGray* January 18, 2019 at 3:43 pm Exactly. If you call someone you have no record of what was said or when. No one can argue with an email which is why I will send an email when I can.
KatieKate* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am I’m a millennial (26) and I love taking on the phone, but that’s because I learned how to talk on the phone. I didn’t grow up talking on the phone unless it was to call my grandparents. My friends and I all talked on IM or text. I only learned how to talk on the phone in college when I was working as a hostess and had to confirm reservations. It’s a skill “kids these days” just don’t have, and that makes people uncomfortable. When I had interns I always made sure talking on the phone and cold calling was part of their work because I know that it really takes practice for something that’s so foreign to them/us.
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am I did 24-7 phone support for work for six years. I am pretty comfortable having business-related phone calls (including doctor’s offices and such) or phone meetings and maybe, like it is the case with you, that is why. Non-work-related phone chats still mystify me. I have nothing good to say about cold calls, so I won’t.
Autumnheart* January 18, 2019 at 6:32 pm I did phone support early in my career, and that’s WHY I hate the phone. #neveragain Squarely in Gen X here. I have good phone skills and can make a perfectly reasonable phone call, and I will if I have no other choice. But I’ll go out of my way to avoid it.
Grapey* January 18, 2019 at 2:59 pm I grew up learning how to use the phone because my mom got anxiety making calls to takeout places lol. (way before online ordering became a thing) I like using the phone for social calls, but for work, I vastly prefer email or chat or face to face.
New Girl* January 18, 2019 at 11:09 am I’m a millennial. My SO and friends rag on me all the time because I’m that person that would rather make a 5 second phone vs. sending a text and 35 follow up messages. But I hate calling the doctors office and any sort of customer service number. I just would rather make an appointment online (so much less back forth when I can see which openings are available!!) or send an email so I have a paper trail.
Bunny Girl* January 18, 2019 at 12:35 pm That’s totally me with the 5 second phone call! I don’t do it often, but if I just need quick information, then yeah I’d prefer to call instead of text. Especially because when I’m home I tend to leave my cell phone just wherever and I figure some other people do that too.
Rebecca* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am I’ll be 56 tomorrow, so at the very tail end of the baby boomer generation, and I prefer email and text to talking on the phone, except if I’m chatting with a friend to catch up on a lot or I have to give some sort of bad news, like someone died, or there’s a medical emergency, that type of thing, but for the most part, please just send an email.
Xarcady* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am I’m the same age and I have *never* liked talking on the phone. Emails or texts are wonderful. In general, I find most of the “millenial” stereotypes to be wrong. The millennials I know, through working with them or being related to them or just being friends with them–none of them fit the negative stereotypes. But there are some baby boomers who are crotchety, hide-bound, negative Nellies that I try to avoid at all costs.
Decima Dewey* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am I’m 63 and when it comes to work stuff, I’d rather read it in an email. Some of my coworkers take forever to get to the point on the phone.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am I should also add that it’s not just a matter of “liking” to talk on the phone or not. Some people use a specific means of communication all the time, whether it’s appropriate or not. And sometimes a phone call is not appropriate. “The meeting has moved from 8:30 to 9:00” is not a phone call. That’s an email. “You’ll be receiving new forms from HR in your mailbox. Please check that” is not a phone call. That’s an email. And yet there’s always some annoying co-worker who insists on calling for something that would be better in an email. Frankly, (apart from the situation in which we have to have a long discussion, and we are unable to meet in person, because we’re physically far away from each other), I can think of zero situations in which a phone call is the best way to communicate for work. I used to be a receptionist, and phone calls were the worst (though obviously a key part of the job), because they took so much time, because they interrupted what you were doing and immediately demanded your attention, and because they don’t even get all the benefits of an in-person conversation (body language, for example).
Dust Bunny* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am Gen X and, yes, I hate talking on the phone. Partly this is just me–I’ve never liked to talk on the phone–but I also find it inefficient for work since it doesn’t leave any documentation. My job functions better when I can include links, pictures, etc., and print things out, and obviously you can’t do that with a phone call. Emailing in the first place is a lot more efficient and usually more accurate than trying to take notes on everything.
The Cosmic Avenger* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Very much this, plus most of my Gen X friends feel the same. (Although the socially awkward tech geek demographic may be overrepresented in my group. :D )
Dust Bunny* January 18, 2019 at 12:12 pm Yeah, I work in an academic library, which basically means our staff is 45 die-hard introverts, so this view might not be unbiased . . .
Cassandra* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am I’m a Gen Xer who would cheerfully destroy all phones everywhere. So at best, the generationality of this phenomenon is… dubious.
pancakes* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm Same. I haven’t had a land line since Motorola Startac days, and almost never use my phone for calls.
Formerly Arlington* January 19, 2019 at 7:24 pm Me too! I don’t have any friends my age who talk on the phone! Especially with all of those spam calls from robo callers. I don’t even answer my phones. At work we use google hangouts for conferences and meetings. My mom is the only person I call, and even she texts me (she is 72!)
Hooray College Football* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am I’m a boomer and I don’t like talking on the phone. I’m much better in writing, especially when questions are complicated and require analysis, which is much of my job.
She's One Crazy Diamond* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I am a millennial and hate talking on the phone. But I think it’s more because I’m an introvert than because of my age. My dad also hates talking on the phone and he’s Gen X.
Sluggy* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am I’m a millennial and I love talking on the phone, to friends and to strangers. I did customer service for some small businesses previously and always had really interesting conversations with people. Only had one bad experience with someone masturbating over the phone -_- However it is super inefficient for a lot of things, and nothing drives me crazier than a 15 minute phone call that could be a 30 second email. If there’s one millennial stereotype that I endorse, it’s that we’re stretched thin, and making time for phone calls with vendors who want to chat for 30 mins is a losing bargain.
Rayne* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am I’m a millennial and I kinda get the stereotype (I don’t really like talking on the phone either), but I have never actually seen anyone ~refuse~ to talk on the phone – especially at work. I think it’s insulting to assume a whole generation of people are just not do part of their job because they’re young. It makes no sense
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am I’m a millennial and I HATE talking on the phone with services. Ordering food, scheduling appointments… I will put it off for as long as possible or beg my husband to do it. That said, I’m a project manager and have zero issues spending a lot of the day on the phone with offsite coworkers. Something about it feels totally different to me, and emailing back and forth for hours when a 2 minute phone call could clear it up is a pet peeve.
Falling Diphthong* January 18, 2019 at 11:17 am My mother’s voicemailbox carried the message, in my sister’s voice: “Hi. This is Jane Doe’s voicemailbox. You can leave a message, but she is never going to check them.” My 20s daughter calls home. And texts and emails. It’s more about matching the need to the medium–I sent her an email of a cartoon this morning; she called me last night as she walked back to her apartment. (Almost all my work communication is over email, but I work from home rather than in an office.)
Jen RO* January 18, 2019 at 11:17 am I don’t mind scheduled phone calls (or Skype calls, in my company’s case). I dislike getting cold calls though, even it’s my mom… And I *hate* making unscheduled phone calls… I chose the clinic I go to because it lets me schedule appointments online! I’m born in ’84, so according to some classifications, I am a millennial. What’s weird is that, at some point, I stopped liking to chat on the phone. When I was in school, I spent literally hours talking to my friends. Now, I can’t wait to end the conversation! I very much prefer to meet them face to face.
Shark Whisperer* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I don’t think it’s just millennials who hate talking on the phone, I think older generations grew up having no other option. I’m a millenial, my mom is a boomer. My mom hates talking on the phone. She used to make me call to order pizza starting when I was like 12 because she didn’t want to do it. She texts me way more than she calls me. In fact, I assume its an emergency if my mom calls me instead of texting me. I generally hate talking on the phone when it comes to talking to people I don’t know well or at all. But, I would say that I probably talk to my friends on the phone more than I text them. I think secretly everyone kinda hates talking on the phone. There’s some psychology behind the fact that talking on the phone makes us uncomfortable. Millenials are just the most vocal about it.
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I find any sweeping generalisation like that somewhat irritating, whether it is about Millennials, Gen X, Boomers, or whatever other group. I think talking on the phone (esp. to people you don’t know) is fairly common regardless of age. I wonder if the stereotype got attached the Millennials as they were the first cohort growing up for whom phone calls were no longer the quickest and easiest way to talk to friends etc, so maybe as a group were perceived as less confident / comfortable with talking on the phone (esp. in a business setting) than older people, when they first started working?
pancakes* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm That makes sense. And there are still lots & lots of publications getting mileage out of generalizing about millennials, no matter how senseless or tenuous the story.
DAMitsDevon* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am Millennial here, and on the one hand, I definitely prefer email to talking on the phone. However, a lot of my job involves talking to clients over the phone or via video chat, and those are the types of calls where trying to accomplish the same task via email would be impossibly difficult. I knew that going into the job. There are also some instances though, where I feel like talking over the phone wouldn’t be any better than sending an email (like following up with someone after a call, unless following up via email has been unsuccessful). When it comes to talking with coworkers, I do tend to prefer either talking in person, or email/Skype, especially if I feel like writing down something explains it better. We have quite a few people on our staff who work remotely (my boss for instance), and when we do talk to each other out loud, it’s with Skype video, so the idea of talking on the phone instead feels weird. When it comes to my personal life though, I definitely prefer texting or Facebook messaging, unless it’s something urgent. Occasionally, my friends and I who live far away from each other do Google hangouts. And if I want to talk to a friend who lives near me and hear their voice, I’ll try to see them in person. The only people who I like talking to on the phone for the sake of talking are my mom and sister.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am For me – a GenX/millenial straddler – it’s not so much that I don’t like to talk on the phone, it’s that I want to use the most efficient communication method possible. Oftentimes that is not the phone – I think email and chat are way better for most stuff, but then prefer in-person talks for times when you really need to have synchronous dialogue. But if you need that dialogue, but can’t be physically present, then phone is perfectly fine. I don’t like missing out on the nonverbal stuff, but there are many times when a phone call can clear up a lot of confusion about a topic when emails just keep going round and round.
Millenial Lizard Person* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am I’m the designated phone-caller in my household. I agree that phone calls can be way more effective than email, because you can ask your questions and get answers right away. We had to get condo insurance recently, and Other Half was shocked that I called the company to finish it. When you’re trying to solve a problem, phone calls > emails.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am I’m the phone-caller as well. I still don’t really like it, and try to use email or a company’s system as much as I can (I LOVE online patient portals for all my medical stuff), but yeah, sometimes email just doesn’t cut it.
Thrown into the fire new manager* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I’m Generation X and I don’t prefer the phone. For quick and easy things, I like text and email but anything that needs more than a couple phrases/sentences, I have to use the phone…it’s too frustrating to coherently type something out. I sometimes wonder if the younger generation is a little more direct and the pleasantries on the phone is an irritation…I know it is to me. You can call someone a 2nd time in the hour and still have to go through “Hi, it’s me’ “Hi you, how are you?” “I’m fine thanks, how are you?” “I’m fine, how can I help you?”……
LCH* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am Old millennial here. I have no issues with a phone call, but I do hate voicemail. It just takes sooo long to listen to. I can read faster. Plus I usually have to listen more than once to get all the info. My VM transcription on the iPhone just isn’t there yet. But I will make calls, answer calls, and leave VMs myself if there is no other option. I only recently got my dad into texting.
Mel* January 18, 2019 at 12:44 pm Also technically a millennial (I’m 35) and I so hear you on the voicemail hate. I have a hard time with background noise, imperfect connections (and they’re all imperfect), and people talking quickly because it’s the 34235345th time they’ve recited their office number, so I have to listen to the stupid message over and over to get all the digits of the number they want a call back at. Just text me! While I’m grumbling, I hate voicemail interfaces so much! I’m calling in to my voicemail because I have a new message, that’s the only reason I ever call my voicemail, so just play it and skip the “You have 1 new message, if you would like to listen to it, press 7”! Part of my dislike of phone calls and voicemail could be that I’m a millennial, but part of it is definitely that voice is just a bad way to exchange information when the details are important.
TheRedCoat* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am I (30) will chat socially on the phone as much as I can. (Extrovert with a new baby, I don’t get out neeearrrr enough). But when it comes to work, I want it in writing because it’s how I manage my ADHD, helps me visually organize my tasks, and makes a paper trail if someone is “confused” later. I have emailed myself the contents of conversations so I don’t forget them later.
Natalie* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am I’ve just noticed this recently – it feels like the audio quality of most phones has gone completely into the toilet. I’m a millennial who’s conceptually fine with the phone, but not as much practically fine with the phone because it’s impossible to hear what people are saying!
Asenath* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm I blame cell phones. I have regular phone calls with a relative and love them – but she’s cell phone only, and the reception can be terrible – or get inaudible at any moment. I rarely use my cell phone for calls, other than very brief ones like calling a cab. I have no objection to using a phone in most situations (unless they put me on prolonged hold), but I dislike the phone at work. It interrupts me. Some people natter on and on until I stop them, a few don’t bother to identify themselves and work numbers I get calls from often come up on the display as private user, so that’s another guessing game. But I think the main reason I like email is the nature of my work. I need to track things, and email lets me do that without having to write notes based on my interpretation of a phone call. I have no problem at all using a phone in other circumstances. I’m a Boomer, if it matters.
Marvelous Mrs. Manager* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am I’m part of the “millennials” technically, but have been called many other generations over the years (first it was “Generation Y”, I think. I prefer text or email to talking most of the time if I can’t talk in person. For work, there are times when a phone call is necessary, but usually after email has failed – ex. customer service issue or situation where the conversation is not moving forward because of a communication barrier. For personal life, I really just don’t like holding a phone to my face for that long. I have AirPods now and it’s been a game changer. Now, I can do whatever I want while catching up with a friend!
Mashed potato* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am I don’t want people to listen in on my phone convo so I prefer text af least at work
Oooch* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am Its funny to read this because I just had a conversation with my mom about this last night. She told me her pastor had sent her a text about a meeting time. I told her I was surprised because that very same pastor told me years ago that it was stupid and lazy and a waste of time for me to text my sister instead of just picking up the phone to call her. We were talking about how many people in her generation (baby boomers) didn’t like texting at first but use it so much now.
Jimming* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am I’m technically a millennial and I don’t like talking on the phone in my personal life. Unless it’s a really close family/friend I don’t see the point. For example, I can order pizza, schedule non-emergency doctor appointments etc online. But I am on the phone often for work. I respond to others in the way they’ll engage – if they call me, we talk, if they email but don’t call back, we email. If they text back, we text. A lot of other millennials I work with do like to talk on the phone. Some don’t. I don’t assume anything until someone gets back to me a certain way or tells me their preference. Internally tho my company is mostly work from home so we do a combo of IM/video chat. I much prefer video chat over phone because you can see body language and have more productive conversations.
AliceBD* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am A lot of my friends hate the phone but like video chat, while I am the opposite. I would rather be doing something else than sitting and staring at the computer! But I talk a lot so grew up chatting on the phone, and I have had three jobs (CSR for Internet-based retailer, phonathon caller, and doing this cold called survey thing for a nonprofit on a government grant) where my entire job was to be on the phone. I was also backup for CSRs for a specific skill in another job because I had the skill and was comfortable on the phone (small business so if the main person was out sick or on vacation I had those calls). I like email for documentation reasons as mentioned, but I do call people if emails aren’t getting results, need an immediate answer, or I want to be off the record.
jennie* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm My father-in-law (boomer) always wants to video chat with my husband and me (GenX) and my husband refuses because “he knows what we look like” :) It just seems silly, and makes us feel we need to be more well groomed and put together than we normally are when sitting around the house. Otherwise I prefer email but have no problem with work phone calls. Don’t care for calls in my personal life though, unless it’s an emergency or complicated I prefer texts or email.
Blinx* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am Stereotypes are dangerous. Many people of all ages dont like to use the phone. I’m an “older” person and I hate to call people at work (but I don’t mind if they call me.) Maybe it’s an introvert thing — I always feel as if I’m interrupting them. I’d much rather send an email.
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am I am a millennial I guess. I hate talking on the phone. I don’t think that has anything to do with when I was born though, because I was a kid during a time when email and texting didn’t exist yet (wasn’t much of a thing until I was in high school) and I hated talking on the phone then too. It’s the dithering. If you blather on in an email I can skim, but if you umm and uhh and go on tangents in a phone call, I have to endure it. And a lot of the time I have trouble hearing what’s being said, because things heard through only one ear is very hard for me to focus on, and the connection isn’t always awesome. I will talk on the phone. A huge part of my job is talking on the phone and I deal because it’s not the end of the world. But I hate it. And I hate people who assume I’m getting everything crystal clear, and that they don’t need to clarify whether their email is spelled with a c, d, e, p or g.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am I have coworkers of all ages who refuse to check their voicemail. That’s just rude, regardless of age. I prefer email because, as others have said, I need the documentation, and I’d rather have a back and forth over email than take the extra two steps to type up my phone notes and distribute them with an “As we discussed on the phone…” email. I also like email because I can take a second to think about my phrasing and send something that I know is polished and accurate.
Ceiswyn* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am Gen X and I hate the phone with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. There is no way for me to know whether or not it’s a good time when I phone someone. If I approach them in person I can see if they’re busy, if I email/text them they can respond at a time that suits them; if I phone, I’m interrupting whatever they’re doing in a way that might be really inconvenient. I can’t see any body language cues, which makes for awkward conversation and the ability to talk at cross-purposes. And neither of us has the ability to pause and think, or check anything, or even just take a few moments to orient ourselves before starting the conversation. It’s just bing, suddenly you’re talking to someone, be professional and competent! When people phone me I tend to spend the first five minutes in a state of total confusion with my brain still full of whatever train of thought they interrupted. And, as others have mentioned, there is no paper trail. If they or I forget a detail of the phone call, then it’s just gone. There are no advantages to the phone, in my book. None at all. It’s just that some people insist on using it, for reasons that escape me completely.
LessNosy* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am I’m a millennial by definition. I used to hate talking on the phone at work and would avoid it at all costs. However, I now realize it was an introverted preference because I wasn’t as experienced at my job and I wanted to be able to be deliberate in my communication and really think things through. Now, I’ll hop on the phone whenever I need to because I know my ish! If I’m having an e-mail conversation with someone and they just Aren’t Getting It, I’ll specifically REQUEST that we get on the phone. To me it’s not a generational thing at all and most generalizations/stereotypes bother me because truly, everyone is different and has different preferences.
RainyDay* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm +1000 Infinitely easier when you can talk off the cuff versus having to think before responding (then reading and rereading 800 times to ensure accuracy)
Red Reader the Adulting Fairy* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am Higher end of the millennial bracket here (Oregon Trail generation? I still have my Apple IIe in my office and it still works), and I hate talking on the phone, but mostly because I have both hearing issues and no visual imagination, so auditory communication with no visual component goes in one ear and out the other and I don’t retain it very well.
Laura H.* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am Part of it (for me, I was born in 1990- so I think I’m smack dab in the middle of the general generational definition- if there is one (that’s another problem for a different thread)) is that while I know basic phone etiquette, I don’t use the telephone to talk as much AND a lot of people don’t pick up calls from #s they don’t recognize- myself included. However, work calls are entirely different and while some of that basic phone etiquette crosses over, I’d need to likely be coached on how to take effective messages for the business. If it’s required of the job, you bet I’ll make efforts to get it down pat.
Zip Silver* January 18, 2019 at 11:43 am I’m 28 and my voicemail on my personal phone is literally “sorry I missed your call, shoot me a text”. I only answer for my wife, mom, and boss.
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 11:50 am I’m an older milennial and I confess I hate talking on the phone.
Phantom* January 18, 2019 at 11:51 am I’m an older millennial (36) who has hated phones since long before texting and emails were an option. I can remember being 10 and feeling like an oddball because the stereotype was that if you let a girl my age have a phone, she’d be on it 24/7, while I avoided talking on the phone at all costs. I have a hard time imagining that those girls all grew up to avoid phones.
tink* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am I don’t LIKE to talk on the phone unless it’s someone I’m familiar with, but for me it’s more because I have trouble hearing over the phone sometimes and sometimes miss very important things (plus I feel like an asshole when someone talks really soft or really fast and I constantly have to ask them to speak louder or slower and repeat themselves). But just because I don’t LIKE to talk on the phone doesn’t mean I won’t, it just means I’d rather you text/message/e-mail me instead if it’s something we can discuss that way.
Delta Delta* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am I saw “Reality Bites” in the theater so I think I firmly qualify as a Gen Xer. I hate talking on the phone.
T. Boone Pickens* January 18, 2019 at 12:03 pm I’m in sales/recruiting so the phone is a much needed tool for me. Phone calls for interviewing/debriefing/deal negotiation Email for contracts/resumes/references In my personal life I’m much more of a texter to setup IRL plans. I really only talk to my family over the phone anymore and that’s generally when I’m in the car w/ bluetooth for safety reasons.
ADKay* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am I’m Gen X and hate phone calls. One reason why: cell phones’ call quality is crappy compared to land line handsets (which I completely remember). An Atlantic article from 2015, “Don’t Hate the Phone Call, Hate the Phone,” describes the technological differences between land lines and cell phones.
Landline lover* January 18, 2019 at 4:10 pm Yessssssss. This is so true. I actually kept a landline for years, because I would have long phone conversations with my dad 2 – 3x a week and I really hate the sound quality (and sometimes time delays) of a cell phone conversation. I didn’t give up the landline until my dad passed away, pretty much everyone else in my life prefers text/email. I have a landline at work, and while I use email 90% of the time I’m perfectly happy to hop on the phone if that’s the easiest way to resolve something.
Landline lover* January 18, 2019 at 4:12 pm For reference, born in ’83 so I think I’m a Gen Xer? I had my own landline as a teenager and would have phone conversations so long that I’d actually fall asleep while talking on the phone some nights. Cell phones are not the same. Also, I have less time now.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am Boomer here. I. hate. the. phone. This is after decades of being a serious phone user. My gripe is that the sound quality is so terrible. I do not like asking people to repeat themselves. And sometimes people have to say it 3-4 times before I can get every third word or so and guess at what they are saying. The phone is that bad here. Finally, I have landed on just telling people that the connection is breaking up on me. They call back. What should take 10 minutes works into at least a half hour trying to get the call squared away. What a waste of time. I think every generation hates the phone initially because it’s awkward answering a business call if one is not used to doing that. I hated answering the calls at work but I used the phone at home a lot. But I know plenty of people my age who avoid jobs with phone tasks.
Sarah Simpson* January 18, 2019 at 12:00 pm I really don’t think it’s any more true of millennials – I hate the phone, and avoid it when possible, and I’m old. That said, I did interview a person who said that in a particular circumstance, he had to call someone on the phone which “seemed aggressive” but it worked out – the problem was that he was interviewing for a job where he would be on the phone most of the time!
Comms Girl* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm Millenial who loves talking on the phone reporting for duty. The whole stereotype around this is silly :)
magnusarchivist* January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm Mid-30s millennial here and I’m fine talking on the phone for work. If I have a role to play, I can slip on my phone voice & work persona and just get it done (also helps that I prepare before hand with notes and questions and stuff). What’s weird is that when I was a teenager I would talk on the (landline) phone for hoooouuuurrrrss to my friends and boyfriends but calling a doctor or the school or anything not social was like torture and I would beg my mom to do it for me. The stakes were so high! They could say anything! What if I made a mistake? Now, though, I do not know what to do with social phone calls at all. An ex boyfriend called me while he was traveling “just to hear my voice” and I did not know what to do with myself or how to make the conversation progress. We mutually agreed it was very awkward and hung up after 5 minutes.
platypusenthusiast* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm I’m a millenial (26), and it really depends on the situation. I prefer email for work purposes, just so I have some documentation to refer back to if needed. I also use phones as needed for work, and I enjoy talking on the phone with friends or family. I would never keep my voicemail box full though, thats just a terrible idea!
Joielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm I’m a millennial and I do hate non-scheduled phone calls at work. I think it’s rude for someone to call me, interrupt what I’m doing, and give me a stream of consciousness that it’s now my responsibility to write down and organize. If you can’t be bothered to organize your own thoughts and commit them to writing, why does that have to be my job? Of course, it often makes more sense to talk something out over the phone, and then I’m perfectly happy to schedule a call for a specific reason. And I’m more than willing to call a business to get information that’s not on their website, or make appointments over the phone, or talk to friends and family on the phone. So it’s not that I hate the phone per se!
1000pushups* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm As a happy enough Millenial and an avid phone hater, I really only talk on the phone (or voice only Skype, which my organization uses heavily) when I absolutely can’t avoid it. But it’s (mostly) not because of my age; it’s due to spending four years in the call center trenches and being required to talk on the phone for 8-10 hour days. It’s also the reason I worked my tail off to move out of a front office, phone oriented position cause being tied to a phone all day sucks so very much…
Snark* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm I hate talking on the phone for many of the above reasons, but also because I’m hearing impaired. Can I do it when I need to? Sure. Do I want to struggle to figure out what the hell you’re saying through your crappy connection, without even the benefit of lip reading, body language, or subtext to fill in the inevitable gaps? Sweet llamaspit, no.
Slartibartfast* January 18, 2019 at 8:04 pm I’m mid 40s, suspect I have Asperger’s or something similar, and am completely oblivious to body language and tone of voice. So I much prefer written communication, because it avoids my deficiencies as well :) Il also keeps me from accidentally interrupting or talking over people, since I can’t anticipate where the natural breaks in a conversation will be. Also, I could read before I could talk, shrug!
Kix* January 18, 2019 at 12:44 pm I’m a Boomer and I prefer email, chat, or text over the phone. It’s just easier.
Kix* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm Uh, let me try that again: “I’m a Boomer and I prefer email, chat, or text instead of using the telephone. It’s just easier (except when posting to AAM and hitting SEND before reading what you’ve written).
Anon and on and on* January 18, 2019 at 12:46 pm I’m 46 and I hate talking on the phone. I have difficulty understanding what the other person is saying and they get mad when I have to keep asking them to repeat themselves. I do much better with the written word.
LizzO* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm Grr, hit reply too fast! Anyway, I am seeing a lot more aversion to talking on the phone in the workforce, but it is not a Millennial-only problem. I think with all the communication based technology out there and with so many of them being integrated into the workforce, it makes it easier to avoid phone conversation. Millennials and Generation Z certainly grew up with a lot of technology integrated into their lives, but if the workforce is providing so many alternatives for communication and even encouraging this into organizational cultural, workers of all generations are certainly of guilty of avoiding phone usage.
Tinker* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm I don’t feel any particular way about the aspect of the stereotype that asserts it as a fact that Millennials don’t talk on the phone — I think it might be true, it’s sort of true for me although I think that has more to do with that I’m autistic and have some bad history with the phone being used as an electronic leash, but I haven’t gone looking into whether it’s really a statistical trend or not. Actually I get to wondering if that “electronic leash” thing is a relatively common generational experience and if that has something to do with higher rates of distaste for the phone if these are a thing. Where I do get annoyed, and this is often true with the generational difference thing, is when people frame the difference in a disparaging way. It’s not so surprising that people who have had different experiences with phones across their lives use them differently and have different attitudes to them — really I think it’s getting to where the “phone” of my childhood and the “phone” of my adulthood mostly share the name — but I don’t think it’s fair to rate one way of being as superior to the other.
Rez123* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm I’m millennial and I hate the phone. I choose what services I use exclusively on if I can book it online. We never talk on the phone with my friends. I don’t think it’s and age thing. But I do think it is true that millenials haven’t had to force themselves making phone calls and therefore it doesn’t seem a necessity
Argh!* January 18, 2019 at 12:59 pm Where I work we have a problem with people using email vs. using the phone. Normally email is fine, but when they use email to notify their supervisor that they’re sick, and if the supervisor isn’t there, then nobody knows where they are. Also, they used to ignore our phone when it rang until we changed it to a ringtone (some landlines will do that!) Now they will pick it up. They have no concept of hold or transfer, though. Even after explaining it several times, they will just lay it down and go get the person to come to that handset, and the person on the other end has to hear all the background conversation. So…. yeah, it’s kind of true. It may not be 100% but vs. 100% of older people feeling comfortable making and receiving actual phone calls, it’s rather an obvious distinction between generations.
Sarah* January 19, 2019 at 1:38 pm Re: using email to notify supervisor they’re sick – how would a voicemail message for an absent supervisor be better? That’s a situation that comes up frequently at my work with a 50something employee. Most people email their supervisor and a few colleagues, one leaves voicemail for several of us… and one leaves a single voicemail for his supervisor. So if supervisor is out, no one knows voicemailer is also out until he doesn’t turn up for a time-sensitive task.
AnonyMouse* January 18, 2019 at 1:04 pm As a millennial I get annoyed with this because I feel like my personal phone use is getting mixed up with my professional phone use. Yeah sure, if I get a call from an unknown number to my cell phone I’m probably not picking it up. I don’t want to deal with telemarketers and explaining to the poor student worker at my alma mater for the 1 millionth time that I’m not making enough to donate right now. At work I answer every call that comes to my desk because I’m required to. I obviously can’t speak for my entire generation, but I think generally speaking there’s a difference in the way most of us communicate on the clock vs. off the clock.
Margot* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm I worked for Childline in the UK for years (a helpline for children & youth) and from that experience, I would definitely say that “youth” (whether that’s millenials or Gen Z or later, I don’t know) are either adverse or inexperienced talking on the phone. There’s a reason chats and emails are growing in demand for helplines, regardless of whether they’re for children or all ages. In a work context, my biggest pet peeve is that the “boomers/older people” in my office complain constantly that the “millenials” won’t just pick up the phone and call, but I am beyond fed up of having meandering hour long phone conversations that could’ve been a one sentence email.
Argh!* January 20, 2019 at 8:43 am I resist long streams of emails that should really be in-person or phone conversations! I have started to go to the person’s office when one of these starts up so everything can get cleared up. My supervisor has a very vague communication style, so relying on email with her just doesn’t work.
Alianora* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm I don’t mind talking on the phone in a work context when necessary, but communicating over text or meeting in person is usually far more efficient. I’ve gotten in the habit of sending a follow-up email summarizing what was discussed if any important decisions were made. In a non-work-related context, my landlord insists on having discussions over the phone and I really don’t like it because I prefer to have these things in writing and he just won’t. He’s also asked me not to contact him unless “necessary” by which he means don’t ask for updates on something that he mentioned that will affect me and don’t summarize our phone calls in writing. He is also just a terrible communicator in general: constant interrupter, fixates on one point he’s trying to make and repeats it over and over even when I confirm that I understand, either doesn’t listen or doesn’t seem to understand what I’m saying, has flat-out given me wrong information a couple times and just assumes that I’ll know what the truth is. Yes, I am looking for a new place. All that just to say that my landlord has really soured me on people who will only communicate by phone, and now I regard it as a kind of red flag that the person is trying to avoid committing to something in writing.
blink14* January 18, 2019 at 1:29 pm I think part of this is that the Millennial category is too broad. I’m towards the older end, and I hate being lumped in with the younger end, because the presumptions being made about Millennials (and some are true), really apply to the first generation of people who grew up with the internet and advanced technology from infancy or at a very young age. My brother is about 7 years younger than me, and there is a very distinct line between us generationally – he doesn’t remember not having a computer, and I remember not having one at home and only at school. I don’t like talking on the phone, but that’s because i just don’t like it. I feel more comfortable writing an email, because I can think and change what I’m saying. That said, being on the phone is part of most jobs – you just have to do it. I – and I’m assuming you as well – grew up in a time where phone was the main form of quick communication. People younger than us know email and instant messaging as the quick forms of communication. It is definitely a generational difference for sure.
Avid reader infrequent commenter* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm I’m a millennial. I absolutely prefer things in writing. However, it’s nothing to do with not *wanting* to talk on the phone. It’s a matter of record keeping. The things I deal with on a daily basis at work are things that are detail-oriented and might need to be verified or double checked later. I book a ton of travel all day long, and it drives me nuts when people just call up, give me a complicated change to their travel plans, and expect me to just remember it. That might be possible if I didn’t have 50 other things to book that day, many with their own changes. Send. Me. An. EMAIL. Please! The time I appreciate a call is when it’s to say “hey, just letting you know I sent something over, it needs to be done asap, IF it’s even possible.”
Polly* January 18, 2019 at 1:47 pm Gen X here and HATE THE PHONE but loved it as a teen. I think it has to do with personality type more than anything. Email is my jam.
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm Hate it, and I’m a millenial. But texting didn’t become a thing until I was in my mid-teens, so for the first ten years of my school-age life I had to deal with extreme anxiety every time I wanted to call up a friend and ask if they could play. Texting has been a huge blessing for me.
Could be Anyone* January 18, 2019 at 2:03 pm I’m a millennial by most definitions (I’m 33) and I HATE talking on the phone. This is mostly due to terrible anxiety, but I also prefer e-mail for practical reasons. – It’s easier to include multiple people in a conversation, and they don’t all have to be available at the same time. – I like having a written record I can refer back to. – I can take my time to compose my answer (and confirm it’s accurate) before responding, rather than trying to jot down notes while listening and formulating a response. That said, I have a phone conference scheduled in an hour because some things just can not be done by e-mail.
Anonymeece* January 18, 2019 at 2:07 pm I’m a millennial and I hate talking on the phone. I also worked at a call center and as a receptionist – go figure. For me, though, I almost have a phobia about it now. I have to psych myself up to call people. But my brother, also a millennial, loves talking on the phone. I’ve honestly seen more of an introvert vs. extrovert tendency than a generational one.
she was a fast machine* January 18, 2019 at 2:17 pm I’m more than happy to call someone for work though I usually lean towards email as my work is rarely as urgent as a phone call might dictate. But personally, I will not pick up the call from certain people(also in my age group and are also millennial) who I know just like to jabber or call “just to talk”. If it’s urgent, call me. If it’s not, text me. Otherwise, leave me alone, I’m way too busy to pick up the phone to spend twenty minutes listening to you putter around the house, carry on a meandering conversation, and yell at your kids/dogs.
JG Wave* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm I’m a milennial and in my personal life I really prefer talking on the phone. In a work context I’m actually not sure–I’ve never had a job where I had my own phone, anyway, except when I worked as a receptionist. In that case, answering the phone was a pretty big part of my job and I was perfectly happy to do it, and I can imagine that in some circumstances it would be really helpful. I did sometimes get frustrated when clients insisted on speaking to me on the phone, though, for two reasons. The main one is that, in the role I was doing, I really couldn’t answer most of their questions on the spot. I needed to be either going through paper records, which took too long when someone was on the other line waiting, or checking online databases, which could bring up a lot of irrelevant results I needed to sort through. If they had scheduled a call–if we had arranged via email that I would do the research, and explain my results over the phone at the end–that would have been better. The second reason I didn’t like talking to people on the phone at that job was because I didn’t have my own line, so every time someone called me, I had to kick someone off their desk, and as a student employee I felt really weird about it!
Hi* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm There seems to be TONS of people who are really adverse to talking on the phone. Im 28 so smack dab in the middle of millenials and I just don’t get it. Its part of existing in society. Just talk on the darn phone! Sure I’ll set up an appointment online if its easier, but the whole let’s spend 45 minutes emailing/texting over something a 2 minute call could solve is ridiculous. And in terms of the business world, it seems insane that anyone would ever say they “dont like” or are “afraid of” talking on the phone. I would read that person as completely incompetent. Its a phone? ITs not going to harm you. You can literally hang up whenever or shut the phone off. Yes, I know, people have legitimate anxiety but i would say if that’s preventing you from making basic phone calls, its interfering with your basic ability to live.
AwkwardTurtle* January 18, 2019 at 2:31 pm I’m in the range for millenial I think, and I love to talk on the phone… unsurprisingly, like most stereotypes, it’s true sometimes, but not always. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 2:31 pm Gen X’er here, raised on landlines. I don’t mind talking on the phone, especially since texting is difficult for me because of dyspraxia. It’s not a generational thing. I talk to people online all the time–in my chat room, here, on Messenger. I have good friends whose voices I’ve never heard! It’s the way you have to type on a phone keyboard vs. a computer that’s the issue for me. I just have a really hard time controlling the fine movement of my thumbs, and eventually it will deteriorate so it looks like ‘Yeanl he reklly mess,e tat on up.” Text is fine for short conversations, but if you want to chat, please just call me. Just remember that text isn’t always the best option for the other person, and if they need you to call them, you might need to just deal with it and call them. That said, I hate making work calls and answering the phone at a job, but I think it’s just because I’m tired of being the phone person.
Ghost Town* January 18, 2019 at 2:58 pm I’m an older millennial myself and prefer not talking on the phone. At work, there are time when it certainly makes sense to pick up the phone/walk to their desk for a chat, but my preference is usually email or the instant message system (bonus being a “paper trail”). In middle/high school, I used to talk on the phone with friends for.hours.and.hours. Now, I’m not keen on long phone calls, even with family and friends. Things like business calls, payments or orders over the phone – I just get tremendous anxiety about them. Will I remember everything I want to address/order? Do I have all the information I need? Will my mouth cooperate with what I want to say or will I make a fool of myself? And this is after doing prep work and lists to make sure I’ve got it all covered…
Jan Levinson* January 18, 2019 at 3:13 pm I definitely prefer email (I’m a 25 year old millennial). However, I don’t attribute that to my age. My main reason for preferring email is that I have a savable chain of communication in case I need to go back to it. I don’t like when coworkers call to give me a boatload of information when it would have been so much easier to lay out in an email (and then discuss on the phone later once I have all the information right in front of me). I’ll certainly use the phone when I need to, especially in time sensitive situations. However, I do feel in general email is a better means of communication in most office settings.
Jan Levinson* January 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm Also, quick story- I was helping planning a trade show for our office, and was the RSVP contact for the event. I was in a semi-important meeting with some coworkers when one of our sales reps called. Our office admin who answered the phone interrupted the meeting I was in and said, “hey Jan, Bob is on the phone for you. He’s wondering if he could talk to you. I told him you were in a meeting, but he still wanted to see if you were available.” I rushed back to my desk to take Bob’s call, thinking it was urgent. He was LITERALLY calling to say “Hey, my customer, John Doe wants to RSVP for the trade show. Can you add him to the attendee list?” It absolutely boggled my mind that he would call to tell me that, rather than send me a 5 word email to RSVP his customer (not to mention knowingly pull me out of a meeting for something that was so not time sensitive.)
MoopySwarpet* January 18, 2019 at 3:14 pm At our office, we span 3 generations and 75% of us do not like to talk on the phone. I do notice that the youngest here is the worst about it, though. “I can’t get the answer I need from [offsite entity].” . . . “Did you try calling them?” . . . “No, but I emailed 4 times. Why can;t they just write me back?!” About half the time this happens, the email has somehow gone to the person’s spam folder (or so they say) so a phone call to look for it is really the only way it’s going to get done.
CaffeinatedBeanCounter* January 18, 2019 at 3:33 pm Millennial here, though on the older side of the generation. I don’t mind the phone for work at all though my job usually requires the “paper” trail of email. On a social level I am more likely to talk on the phone with either baby boomers or my fellow millennial friends than most X-ers in my circle. I don’t often like long conversations via text unless one of us in a situation where we can’t call.
CS* January 18, 2019 at 4:04 pm It is true; I am probably the only millennial I know that tells people to call me. When people were going off Facebook in droves, someone asked for suggestions on apps to use to communicate. I suggested “this thing called the telephone” and everyone was *amazed*. Business contacts have actually been surprised at how young I am when they meet me because I actually *use* the phone.
A Non E. Mouse* January 18, 2019 at 4:06 pm Oh I wish I could remember where, but I read this is really a difference in what kind of communication you are most comfortable with, synchronous or asynchronous. Synchronous, you want the phone or face to face. Asynchronous, text or email. Not a generational thing really – people used to write letters even after phones in houses existed! And those were the first asynch comms around!
A tester, not a developer* January 18, 2019 at 4:13 pm I am far too old to be a millennial, and I hate talking on the phone for work. 98% of the time, if I’m asking someone a question, I need some sort of record of what the answer was. I was thrown under the bus far too many times in my youth when I said “So and so told me X” and then X says they said something else, or I missed some nuance, etc. etc. So unless it’s a pretty trivial thing, I want it in writing.
That One Person* January 18, 2019 at 4:42 pm I’m with some other folks that it’s more of a personality thing. I’m not a millennial, but I’ve always been awkward with phone conversations because I don’t always know where/when to end it or how. Sometimes though I have a problem ending it simply because I don’t want to if its someone I generally like talking with and maybe don’t get the opportunity often. Always that “oh yeah and this thing happened!” type moments. On the other hand sometimes connection might be bad or there’s a lot going on around me that makes it either hard to concentrate on the call or I have problems hearing it. In such cases I like written words because I can go back to them and don’t have to ask for as much (or often) clarification on things. With retail though it was bad mostly because of the myriad of distractions going on (including people trying to talk to you despite the phone against your head) and all the other noise (and more so with holidays). Now that I’m not in retail it’s admittedly not as bad outside of one of us having connection issues if we’re using cellphones.
Lavender Menace* January 18, 2019 at 4:49 pm Some people just don’t like to talk on the phone. It has nothing to do with “millennials.” I’m a millennial, and I don’t like talking on the phone, but I have people my age who do and people my age who don’t. I also know older folks who hate talking on the phone, too. I think it’s accurate to say that millennials are more used to other forms of communication besides a voice call, because for most of our adult lives at least we’ve had other ways to communicate (email, text messages, messaging apps). And that may drive a preference for those types of messaging for some of us – but definitely not all of us, and not to the exclusion of older folks.
Marion Ravenwood* January 18, 2019 at 4:57 pm I’m a slightly older millennial at 31, and with me and the phone so much of it depends on who it is and who’s initiating the conversation and what it’s about. So if it’s me making the call to someone I know to ask them for something (eg ‘hi, it’s Marion, I’m just calling to follow up on Project X that we spoke about last week?’), then no problem. On the other hand, if it’s getting them do to something I want them to do rather than need them to do, and particularly if it’s someone I don’t know well (if at all), or if someone calls me directly when I’m not expecting it I can get quite flustered and panicky. It’s why I absolutely loathe phone pitching and was secretly really relieved when my new boss in my old job came in and said ‘we’re not doing that any more because it’s pointless’. I think it’s a thing about not wanting to seem incompetent or out of control, especially if it’s something they need help with and that I can’t answer but feel I should be able to (and particularly if they’re not taking ‘can I check this with a colleague and have someone call you back?’ as an answer). The thing that helps me is having a script or a list of things I can ask them about, and particularly when things might be going wrong. In a way it’s one thing that my side hustle has really helped with – having to speak to strangers on the phone for interviews quite a lot, and being able to handle things going awry (calls dropping out etc) and having a set of points to speak to them about that I can then bounce off. Something about that feels like a safety net and like I actually know what I’m doing, in a way that being put on the spot by a direct call doesn’t so much.
rogue axolotl* January 18, 2019 at 5:13 pm Personally, I don’t mind talking on the phone at work when it makes sense for the type of conversation we’re having. What annoys me is when I have to waste my time on a phone call because the other person doesn’t like using email or just thinks they’re more important than the rest of my job–particularly when I then have to spend the call explaining to them what they need to put in an email for me, after listening to a lengthy monologue that has no relevant information. So I think that either refusing to pick up the phone or refusing to use email can be pretty irritating depending on the situation.
RNL* January 18, 2019 at 5:59 pm I’m an Elder Millennial, and I had to learn how to talk on the phone professionally. Now I love it and am good at it and enjoy harnessing its powers (an instantaneous back-and-forth where misunderstandings can be resolved very quickly, unlike over email), but I used to find it very anxiety provoking because I couldn’t carefully formulate my thoughts. It’s almost like learning skills outside one’s comfort zone can be difficult, and young people have less experience with older technologies than older people! Hot take: many Boomers are reallllllly bad at email and tech in general.
Adhara* January 18, 2019 at 7:10 pm Millennial, and eh, don’t love phone calls, but I’ll do them. Personal preferences aside, I wonder how much of it boils down to the age demographic? Younger people are less likely to be comfortable with professional phone conversations because they’ve had literally less time to practise them. And nobody teaches it either, like I was amazed how quickly I shortened a call by saying “Hi! This is adhara, I’m calling about xyz”! I’ve coached younger millennial coworkers on the basic script because nobody told them how to do it. It’s not a fault, it’s just not knowing. OTOH, I get really snarly at the number of calls I make that result in my surname spelt wrong. I spelt it out for you! I know it’s weird! But please listen when I spell it out! So I definitely prefer black and white text for data or be able to input it myself and save another person having to go back into my account to change it.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 7:37 pm Dunno about millennials, but my daughter’s friends prefer texting to talking. I blame the number of people who had no land line during the “learn to dial ” years. What 3rd grader wants to get a parent at work instead of a kid?
Catherine* January 18, 2019 at 8:02 pm My preference for email has nothing to do with my age and everything to do with wanting a paper trail I can point to when people start the “but you saaaaaid” game.
CatMintCat* January 18, 2019 at 9:04 pm Well, I’m a boomer and I don’t talk on the phone if I can avoid it. When I started work, we had the phone and we had snail mail. Nothing in between – not even the fax machine. Now we have so many better and faster ways of communicating clearly and precisely, I don’t get people insisting on communication that is either slower or less precise. I love email and feel texting was invented for me.
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 10:36 pm I hate talking on the phone. People talk too fast, they talk too softly, they mumble, they can’t get their thoughts straight. I much prefer email, forum threads, DMs on social media, or texting. The only person I really call on the phone on a regular basis is my mother. My boss has called me twice, and now he shows up on my phone as a “frequent phone contact.” I like text-based communications because there is a record of it—I may not remember that you told me via voice to pick up a gallon of milk and a dozen eggs, but if you texted me that information, I could just pull it up on my phone. Am I a millenial? No—I’m a Gen X who is decidedly middle aged (and who has had hearing problems since childhood). Stereotypes be damned!
Been There, Done That* January 19, 2019 at 1:49 am This view could be based on their experience with millennials rather than a stereotype they pulled out of the air. The millennials I work with are, like, married to their phones, whether texting, talking, checking email, or checking out the restaurant they want to go to.
Cat wrangler* January 19, 2019 at 7:33 am I’m not a millennial by any means but I dislike talking on the phone – I always have done. I prefer to email or text where possible. For immediate responses it can work well but I prefer to initiate calls rather than receive – it’s the being in control element, I suppose.
matcha123* January 19, 2019 at 9:26 am I’ve only heard that on this page. I’m at the older end of millennial, but I don’t mind speaking on the phone. I clearly remember being directed on how to properly answer and address callers when I was 5 years old. This seems less of an age issue and more of a comfort one?
TeacherLady* January 19, 2019 at 4:40 pm I hate the phone, to the point that it gives me a fair amount of anxiety (not sleeping the night before a work call, for example), but I think it’s because I’m a visual person, and speaking without seeing who I’m speaking to, or looking at the information they’re communicating, feels a bit like being a disembodied head floating around in the void. Also, the bulk of my work calls are conference calls, and the silences and lag time (followed by everyone talking at once) just leads to all sorts of awkwardness, which make me want to grit my teeth! So…nothing really to do with being a millenial, I think.
Mina, The Company Prom Queen* January 20, 2019 at 5:08 am While in some situations it’s more efficient to just have a quick phone call rather than going back and forth on email or text, and there’s the whole “well, you can’t hear tone of voice in an email, yada, yada, yada…” some people seem to insist upon phone calls just for the sake of having phone calls. It’s like a badge of honor for them. Their badge of honor can be a waste of everyone else’s time or can delay the work that needs to be done. Also, there have been plenty of times when I have called clients or colleagues and they just emailed me back. That was fine because I got the information I needed and was able to move on with the task at hand. I completely agree that sometimes a phone call is best, but the condescending “pick up the phoooonnnne” makes me cringe. There are plenty of times when an email or text is fine or even better.
fuzzbucket* January 20, 2019 at 5:44 am I’m an early X-er nerd and I can’t stand talking on the phone. Would prefer to text or email. So it’s definitely a personality thing rather than just an age thing. :)
Clisby Williams* January 20, 2019 at 6:59 pm Never heard of that stereotype. I’m 65, and I don’t like to talk on the phone. I buy about 200 minutes a year for my Tracfone, and that’s more than enough.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:02 am Hello ! I am in need of some help with wording in a discussion with my HR department (really, it is just Mary, an admin who has taken on HR duties). Important details : I am not in the US. My grandmother just died last week. I took a day off the next day in order to organise the funeral. It will take place on Monday, so I am at work today but I won’t on Monday. Here is my problem : my branch agreement says I can take 2 exceptional days off if an “ancestor” dies (i.e. parent, grandparent etc…). The law doesn’t say anything, so the branch agreement is supposed to take precedence. Mary told me that I could have one day for the funeral, and then the other day (yesterday) will come from my PTO. I came and showed her the agreement and told her I could normally have one other day (2 in total) without taking time off from my personal days. She was annoyed, told my that the software was calibrated just to offer one day (exceptional time off) and that normally, people just took one day, so she didn’t know. She tried to convince me that grandparents don’t fall under the “ancestor” category, but “indirect relatives’, for which you can just get one day. I check, and the law is clear here : it is in our Civil Code, and grandparents are direct ancestors. She told me that she would call the legal hotline on Monday in order to be sure. I am not completely sure how to frame this here. I didn’t expect to have to fight to be able to take my allowed days off, and the law is quite clear here. She was also quite dimissive and rude, I thought. She told me that “this matter is a pain in the ass” (I am translating, but she was forward and pissed off), and that it wouldn’t change anything for me anyway because I will have to take Monday off. Well… I know, thank you for that. Any help in how to come back to her after Monday if she is still trying to have me take a personal day instead of my allowed exceptional absence ? do you have some language I could use ? Thank you so much !
Not Maeby But Surely* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am “Mary, I know it’s not what you’d prefer but the branch agreement is very clear that grandparents are descendants and that as a result I am allowed to take two days off related to the death of a grandparent. I plan to take both days. Who can we involve in this discussion to get to an understanding?” (i.e. is there someone above Mary who knows how to understand the branch agreement that you could get as a disinterested third party?
Not Maeby But Surely* January 18, 2019 at 11:09 am Whoops, meant ancestor, not descendant. More coffee, please!
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Thank you ! That is useful ! I guess if she still doesn’t budge, I will have to involve either my manager, who will involve hers (the CEO), or I could go straight through to the CEO. I also have the option of going to the unions, but I think it would come off as quite adversarial, and I shouldn’t have to do that. It is just one day, after all. The thing is, I could take it from my PTO, I have it available since it is the beginning of the year, but it is a matter of principle : I would happily take days off fro my grandmother, but I don’t want Mary to stiff me of one day off because she can’t be bothered to learn the law.
Steve* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am Can you talk to the unions without making it a big thing? They are often the continuity / voice of experience in a workplace, and hopefully a quick unofficial chat with them can determine if you are interpreting the rules correctly. I realise that not all unions or workplaces are reasonable, but hopefully they can provide info which you can use with Mary (“This has come up 5 times in the past 2 years, and each time the result was X”).
Four lights* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “the unions” or “branch agreement” since you are not in the US, but it sounds like the policy is a much more formal/a contract and Mary could be getting the company in serious trouble by not following it.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm Well, we basically have the labour laws, that we all have to follow in the country. And then, we have the branch agreements (they are by industry, to put it in a nutshell) : they have to follow at least the requirements of the law, but they can be more precise, more generous etc… They can’t be LESS generous. For instance, they will mention what is the basic salary for a job in the industry, or how much vacation we get etc… And if a company follow a branch agreement (most do), they have to act by it, it would be unlawful for them not to. And by unions, I think I mean the same as in the US (although I am not sure) : they are elected representative of the employees, they can act as intermediate in case of disagreements, and they try to negotiate the working conditions on behalf of the employees with the management. I would have the right to go to the unions, BUT I don’t know… it feels weirdly formal and confrontational. I have always imagined that you needed them when you are in a Very Serious dispute with your employer (harassment, sacking etc…)
valentine* January 18, 2019 at 3:45 pm You shouldn’t have to deal with Mary’s nonsense. She’s got some nerve, claiming a grandparent isn’t an ancestor. She’s possibly been browbeating bereaved people into settling for one day. Ask your supervisor (if unavailable, ask the CEO, unless the CEO has an exec admin who isn’t Mary) if someone can show Mary how to enter the second day in the system. Hopefully, they can get this resolved by Monday so it’s not waiting for you when you return.
Lis* January 18, 2019 at 12:10 pm If it’s part of your Collective Agreement it’s not dversarial to bring your Union in.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 12:30 pm You can always call your union rep for a chat and see what they suggest?
Jen RO* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I like this. I am in a country that has a similar law, so I would approach it as “HR person is not trained and she just needs help from someone more senior to figure out what buttons to push in the software, but of COURSE she wants to follow the law” (even if it’s clear HR is simply being unhelpful).
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 am Where’s your boss on this? Also, I like Not Maeby’s wording. Mary is getting off on a petty power trip.
Four lights* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am Yes, I wonder if it might be appropriate to loop somebody in. You say she’s an admin doing HR duties, so she may not be trained in the more detailed aspects of this position.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am I think this is key indeed. I will loop somebody in, although I would have preferred not to have to…
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am Sorry about your loss. I am an admin who is HR. I am not trained but I research when I don’t know the answer instead of using my own opinion. Involve your manager. My guess is that Mary does not know how to account for day 2 in the “system”. If she’s usually nice-ish, this role may be too much for her, she’s overwhelmed.
Blue* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am I would definitely loop your boss in if she continues to give you a hard time. Honestly, if your boss is a reasonable person, I’d probably flag this for them even if you are able to take care of things with Mary on your own. I’d frame it as, “I was able to get everything sorted out, but I don’t want anyone else to have to go through that while grieving.”
Bryan* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Mary’s stance is that this makes her have to do more work and not what your company’s policy is. That’s bad, but with a death in the family this makes it seem worse. I would loop your boss in, especially if they have been supportive of you over the last week. Any decent boss is probably going to be mortified at Mary’s behavior and will see that this gets resolved for you.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am They have indeed. My manager was very supportive and hers (the CEO, so my boss too) as well. I will involve them when I come back if she still hasn’t budged. I don’t think she is malevolent, but she is not very competent or knowledgeable on these issues, and she is impatient.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am I think its worth bringing up either way. Its her JOB to support people’s needs and make sure they get the benefits they are legally or otherwise entitled to. If she isn’t the right fit for the job, people need to know that. Think of it this way, what if she treats another person this way? Would you want anyone else to go through this? …but I agree it can wait. You don’t need to fight this battle at this moment.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:35 am I know she told other people that they were allowed only one day, and I guess people didn’t check their rights. I might be the first person to push back.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 3:52 pm You might want to point out that if the problem is that the system is not set up to allow multiple exceptional days, the system needs to be corrected and checked. Because you don’t want the system to cause you to break your branch agreements, which are binding, and you REALLY don’t want to take a chance that the system will cause you to not follow the law – which CAN happen in these kinds of situations. True story: I don’t know the current situation, by when Sandy hit the Northeast US, National Grid (a major gas and electricity supplier) was owned by a British company, and had (apparently fairly recently) adopted their (or a new) HR / Payroll system. National Grid also had a fairly strict rule against overtime. Which is fine, as long as people don’t actually WORK overtime. If they do, you HAVE TO PAY THEM if they are non-expempt, which is what most of the line workers are. In the weeks after Sandy, line workers were working TONS of overtime – in some cases working so many hours that they didn’t bother going home and slept in their trucks instead. We’re talking 60-80 hour weeks. Then the paychecks showed up – with pay for 40 hours ONLY. Their system doesn’t allow overtime, so you couldn’t enter more than 40 hours per week. And so people didn’t get paid for their hours. Now, I just checked on the story, and it turns out that the overtime was only one of the issues that were going on, but when the news first broke, this is what hit the papers, and the company actually tried to explain it away with this explanation about their system. The union had to sue them to get it straightened out. Of course this is rather extreme, but you never want your company to break the law, inadvertently or not, because something was not set up correctly in your system.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Jeez, this is completely ridiculous. I don’t know how to phrase things to get through to such a ridiculous person, but I wanted to offer my sympathy. Personally I’d go with “I’m sorry the death of my loved one is INCONVENIENT for you, but that’s not my problem right now.” But obviously that won’t get you anywhere. If you can, try to enlist a manager to fight this battle for you. You don’t need to be dealing with this right now.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am I really was tempted to say so earlier, but I was a little taken aback by her attitude. When she told me that these legal matters were complicated and a pain in the ass, I did mention that “I would have preferred not to have to ask myself these questions either”.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am Of course you were taken aback! This is not an acceptable way for people to act. Just for reference, my grandmother passed away in December. My boss sent me a text “Please don’t worry about the HR paperwork right now, I put it in as an excused paid absence and we’ll get it sorted when you get back.” My mom’s HR manager and boss SHOWED UP at the funeral with a card and reiterated about 100 times she should take as much time as she needed, and they’d figure out a way for her to get paid for it. Even my brother’s terrible job gave him several paid days off no questions asked.
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am Wow, that is really nice to hear that some places really go all the way for their employees ! I am happy that you and your family were so supported. :) Mine is really respectful and supportive on the whole. It is just Mary who chose a different approach.
Data Miner* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am I’d bring it up to your manager or CEO, as an aside and probably not in writing, that she needs to adjust to her role as the HR person and be more professional and understanding of sensitive personal situations. It’s not appropriate for her to tell you that dealing with a death is a “pain in the ass”. If I were her boss, I’d want to know this is how she reacted to your request.
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am Mary is in over her head. The reality is, last minute 2 day absences are a pain in the ass to the person who has to deal with staffing, but she should have kept that information to herself and had a drink after work. Not bothered you with it. And, it sounds like you may be the first person to take 2 days of leave under this category that she has dealt with. Somebody (should be Mary but you can do it) can call whoever supervises the pay process and ask how to properly enter this on your check. Then you can tell Mary ‘payroll says code it like this.’ I’m sorry about your grandmother.
Marthooh* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am I think you handled it well in the moment – bland agreement is the best way to go when coworkers tell you how hard their jobs are. It sounds like Mary got HR dumped on her without training, and she doesn’t know how to tell the computer to give you two days off rather than one. (Obviously that doesn’t excuse her rudeness, ugh.) Maybe the way to frame it to her boss is that the person handling HR should be trained for the job.
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am As she has said that she is going to call the hotline, hopefully they will confirm and you won’t need to say anything further , but if not, I’d send her an e-mail when you are back in on Tuesday, saying something like: “following on from our conversation about my grandmother’s death and funeral, I know that you were planning to double check to confirm that as she is my direct ancestor, I am entitled under the branch agreement for both [date you took off following her death] and [Monday] will be recorded as ‘exceptional days’ and will not be counted as part of my normal PTO time. Can you just confirm that this is how the time has been recorded? If there is any issue about this can you let me know so I can speak to [boss or CEO] to clarify?” That way, you’re phrasing it in a way that lets her climb down fairly gracefully, without having to admit in as many words that she was wrong, which may make her less likely to be awkward once she has found out you are right. And if she doesn’t confirm, then escalate it, at which point you say to the CEO (or your manager) “Mary has told me that I can only take one day as bereavement / exceptional time. I checked the branch agreement which is very clear that there is a right to 2 days where the reason is the death of a direct ancestor, and of course my grandmother is my direct ancestor. I’m not sure why Mary thinks I am only entitled to one day, I did refer her to the agreement. Can you confirm to her that that isn’t correct, and that neither of the two days I have taken will be counted as part of my normal PTO?” If she comes back claiming the legal hotline told her something different, are you able to call them yourself, and then go to your boss?
Constanze* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am Oh thank you for this ! I really like this phrasing, and I love that she can save face if she doesn’t want to admit that she was wrong. I will indeed put in it writing. This is really helpful, thank you !!!
EmKay* January 18, 2019 at 11:43 am Sic your manager on her. Something similar happened to me, 10 years ago, when my paternal grandmother was on her death bed. I was allowed 3 days for an out of the country family funeral, per policy. I wanted to see my grandmother before she passed. I was not going to attend her funeral. My manager said of course, pack your things and go. I inform payroll “HR” lady who would be processing my paycheque during my absence. She looks me right in the face and says “I can’t do that, she’s not dead yet. I’ll mark your days as unpaid.” My manager, seeing me returning to my seat while openly sobbing, marched over to her office and descended on her like the wrath of god.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm I had the same exact problem when my grandmother passed! Why are we only allowed time off to celebrate our love of people… after they aren’t around to experience it anymore? Makes no sense to me. In my case, my boss got it through as ‘paid sick leave’, which was great because it meant I unexpectedly got to attend the funeral as well, since my bereavement hadn’t been all used up.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 11:54 am It may be that the software can’t handle non-sequential days. Maybe there’s a category to get a manager-approved “extra” day off with pay. That might be a way to have the software accept it – and it would let you offer her a face-saving excuse — she has faulty software, and she can be clever finding a way around it. Good luck – and my condolences for your loss.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 2:52 pm I’m glad you’ve got a lot of feedback on this and scripts! Just wanted to let you know that PLEASE!! never feel “bad” or unable to challenge Mary’s interpretation of the rules. This is a huge issue in my mom’s company, they have a CBA [aka they’re unionized and therefore have a contract as well]. and the people tasked with HR are often…not well versed in the actual letter of the “law” so to speak. So they have to often challenge someone who’s being difficult. I am sympathetic, they can’t usually know all the details of every rule without going back and looking HOWEVER! she is rude and out of line. It’s very “standard” attitude for HR people in that position I’m learning. As the “designated” HR person who goes from the rule book, I’m angry that these people exist. I have to coax my staff to come to me and never fear that I’m going to ever tell them they’re a pain in the rear-end or whatever. ITS. MY. JOB. I AM HERE TO HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO, changing a procedure or process or researching it isn’t a pain in the backside, it’s the frigging job. [rage rage rage rage rant] I am so sorry for your loss! Nobody should be in their grieving period and then add this attitude, no no no.
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 10:40 pm “told my that the software was calibrated just to offer one day” Sorry, but no. The software (or how it is set up) does not dictate the policy. If the software doesn’t support the policy, then the IT department needs to get involved to either change the software, override the software, or replace the software. End of discussion, full stop. Either the software is faulty, or Mary doesn’t understand how to use it, but the policy is the policy.
Namey McNameface* January 19, 2019 at 5:25 am Yeah, this is the lamest excuse to stiff someone out of their bereavement leave entitlement. Software exists to make payroll easier and quicker; not to cheat them out of their pay. If the software cannot be re-calibrated to provide that extra one day leave then it’s seriously faulty and should not be used anymore.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:02 am I’ve been following the Glassdoor blog for a while. Sometimes they have some interesting stuff, but the latest entry (“How to End The Perfect Cover Letter”) really made me cringe: “I will call you next Tuesday to follow up on my application and arrange for an interview.” The most essential part of your closing is your “call to action” statement. Remember, the purpose of your cover letter is to land an interview. Don’t end your cover letter saying you’ll hope to get in touch. Explain to the reader the exact day and how you will be contacting them. When you state you will be following up with the employer, make sure you do it! Did this blog post writer do that in her cover letter to get the job at Glassdoor? And Glassdoor actually rewarded her for that?
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:04 am This is terrible advice, and so common. Relatedly, one weird thing is that I see a TON of people include that in their cover letters and then only about 10% of them actually do call. (Which is a good thing, because no one wants those calls — but it’s an additional weirdness.)
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am Yes, that’s extra weird. I guess those people did a copy-and-paste from some template and didn’t bother to read it? But, yes, it’s good they didn’t actually call. In case anyone wants to read the blog post, this is it: https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/5-phrases-close-cover-letter-land-interview/
Justin* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am The funny thing is, I do some alumni fundraising for my school, and we’re told to say stuff like that when we email people. I hate it, so I don’t do it, but I’m also, accordingly, bad at raising money, so. But this context is not the same at all as a cover letter! My god!
Mighty Nick* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am Must really s*ck when, let’s say, about 5 people will call you at 10:00 on Tuesday.
Mimmy* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am Ugh I used to see that advice alllll the time, including from my state university’s career center (where I got my Masters), and it never felt natural to me. I am so glad my instincts were correct in that this is very cringe-worthy.
PB* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am I’ve seen applicants include this in cover letters, too. I have no idea if they have called, as HR hasn’t passed on that information. Every time I’ve seen it, the applicant has been very underqualified and someone we wouldn’t consider for an interview, regardless.
female-type person* January 18, 2019 at 1:11 pm Thank you! I just reviewed a cover letter for a 1L mentee, applying for summer clerkships, and I was horrified at the “I will call” stuff and made him take it out. This would not fly in law in the south. I inquired, and he found it on the internet, and wasn’t being “guided” this way by career services, thankfully.
Kathleen_A* January 18, 2019 at 2:00 pm In my day (~the Pleistocene), we were routinely advised to include that line, and to follow up on it too. It was stupid then, so why it’s still being given as advice now is baffling.
Not the Spiegs* January 18, 2019 at 2:46 pm Yes, fellow dinosaur here, this was very common advice back in the 80s when ads were in the paper and calling as a follow up to a mailed letter was being proactive.
Kathleen_A* January 18, 2019 at 5:15 pm Maybe…maybe employers got fewer resumes or something like that? It was harder to apply when you had to go to all the trouble of mailing the resume and cover letter through the U.S. mail. And I didn’t have my own computer until, oh, the mid-’90s, so that made it more time-consuming to apply. I don’t think those really explain the foolishness of this advice, because for one thing, though there may have been fewer overall, I did some hiring in the ’80s, and I still got plenty of resumes, and I did not like getting phone calls from all of those applicants. But maybe that was part of the reason for the overwhelming prevalence of this Call to Gumption.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I audibly gasped at this advice. If I got that, I’d be like ‘who the heck does this person think they are?!’
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am Yes, it would come across as incredibly arrogant and suggest that the person was not familiar with business norms. (Even more so if whichever date they planned to follow up was before the closing date we’d given in our job ad)
Really?* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am But how do you call a company when sometimes the company doesn’t even post who they are in the job posting? i.e. “company confidential?”
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am Extreme gumption story: A horribly boundary-crashing boss that I had early in my career (and had made the bad call to become friends with), after having no contact with me for several years, one day all of a sudden emailed me at my new job that I’d started a few months earlier. I was sitting at my desk with a new hire training him, when the new hire and I both saw an email hit my inbox that said “Thanks a LOT for telling me you have a new job now, oh wait you didn’t”. Five minutes later, he called me on my office phone. I asked him how he’d gotten my number. He sounded so proud of yourself when he said, “oh, I ran into your husband last night and he told me about your new job, I googled the company’s web site and called the number on the contact us page and it was a main switch with a phone directory”. NOT CREEPY AT ALL! But wait, it gets better! When I asked the then-husband about it later that night, the husband said that his chat with McCreepy ExBoss lasted less than a minute. They bowled in the same league, and ran into each other in the men’s room and the chat went like this: “How are you? How’s I Wrote?” – “Good, good” – “She still work at (OldJob)?” – “No” and ExBoss somehow found my new place of work on his own from there. This is all to say that I would not be surprised to learn that people do exist in this world who think it’s a good idea to dig deeper and find the hiring manager’s direct number from a job posting.
This is nuts!* January 18, 2019 at 12:41 pm Was your information listed on the company website? Some companies list their employees on their website such as “Jane Smith, Llama Groomer” Had you updated your LinkedIn?
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 2:30 pm It was 13 years ago, so I cannot tell. He found me in their phone directory. Cannot remember if I did anything to the LinkedIn. It was before Facebook.
DrTheLiz* January 18, 2019 at 2:28 pm I actually had to do (basically) this! Company I’d applied to said “Great, let’s schedule a phone interview!” … by e-mail, from a do-not-reply robot inbox with no contact details. So, I dug until I was sure that the front-desk switchboard was my only option, made the call, got transferred and (thankfully!) was able to leave a voicemail saying “Hi, it’s DrTheLiz here – you didn’t leave any contact info, but I’m available any time next week, byee”. Got an e-mail about twenty minutes later essentially saying “oops, my bad” and it all went fine from there, but… not something I’d choose to repeat.
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am There is a lot of bad advice out there, and the thing is there are some people who still like that kind of gumption. A few weeks back on a local morning radio show there was a discussion about putting collegiate sports on resumes post college and so many people called or texted in to say they love seeing that on resumes and those are the first people they call. I could not roll my eyes hard enough. There were some decenting opionios but I was shocked how many seemed to think it was a wise idea.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am I can’t disagree with the college sports thing. I was on a fire explorers program as a teen and then worked as an EMT to put myself through college. This is in no way related to my current job, and its been many years. I still have been told at virtually every interview that that experience stood out to them. (Mostly because they think it shows I can handle myself in a male dominated industry… but shouldn’t my years of working experience in a male dominated industry show that??) Anyway, point is, I really do think that things that ‘speak to your character’ should be left on a resume, even if its long past the point in your life when you last used that activity to ‘demonstrate character’. And even if it is super eye rolley that people still think this way.
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 12:21 pm I can see that being more impressive/relevant than “I graduated in 1988 and played Div 3 volleyball” which were the examples given.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm Yeah, ok, D3 volleyball isn’t really the same as D1 football, etc. But I think a lot of people who played sports in college feel that it was fundamental to formulating their work ethic and teamwork skills, and that those skills translate well to a workplace regardless of the amount of time that has passed. Again, the mere fact anyone has made it 10+ years in an industry with increasing levels of responsibility should tell you more about their work ethic and teamwork than their college sports, but…
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm It’s very dependent on where you’re applying. I have large machinery jobs that when I see any kind of intense work prior, I’m interested In the office though? I roll my eyes and wonder why they didn’t tailor it better.
Bekx* January 18, 2019 at 1:04 pm My fiance puts his college sport on his resume. It’s just 1 extra line, but it has been a talking point in every interview he’s had. He was a D1 team and went to the Olympic training center for sport. It ends up being a conversation piece. His most recent boss’ daughter is in the sport, so they chatted about it a bit. He doesn’t put his records or anything down, just that he was an athelete in (sport) at University. I don’t really see it as any different than when I put down that I was a member of our college’s theater program on my ‘extracurricular’ section. It’s a talking point that has allowed me to share how I am comfortable presenting in meeting, for example.
SWOinRecovery* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm I put college athletics in my resume next to my college major and minor. Since it takes up so little space, I consider it a “couldn’t hurt” inclusion. It looks like this: Llama College Llamaville, AZ Bachelor of Arts June 2099 • Llama Relations Major, Llama Leadership Minor, NCAA Llama Equestrian I’ve found a significant amount of interviewers are interested in it and those who play that sport provide a real connection during the hiring process. I could see it coming off weirdly if someone 20 years out of college had 3 sentences about college athletics. But since it’s only 3 words in an otherwise dead space, I imagine I’ll keep it in my resume forever.
SWOinRecovery* January 18, 2019 at 2:50 pm Eh, should have guessed that formatting wouldn’t go through the same, but I think you get the idea…
mark132* January 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm PS. that said if I played college sports, I would put it on my resume. It just bothers me the deference given to athletes. I think it is way out of balance with the contributions actually made by athletes.
Lavender Menace* January 18, 2019 at 8:00 pm Actually, I wouldn’t mind someone putting collegiate sports on their resume, especially if they did well in college otherwise. I’m not saying that those people would be the first people I’d call, but collegiate sports do take a certain amount of work/effort/dedication, and balancing collegiate sports and college is not an easy task for everyone. I had some college athletes in my classes when I taught, and some of them moved heaven and earth to make sure that they got everything in on time and did well in the class – even when they had to routinely travel for meets and stuff.
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 11:43 am Oh no, not the gumption! Seriously, what horrible advice! Sounds like the quickest way to have your resume thrown into the “no” pile.
PB* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm Very true. Also, she’s acting as if there’s a binary: either say “I hope you’ll call me!” or “I’ll call you on Tuesday to schedule my interview.” I’d advise applicants to not include either statement, but especially not the second.
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm LOL, so true! Basically the whole cover letter should be a CTA, where you entice the prospective employer to contact you…
kittymommy* January 18, 2019 at 12:00 pm LOL, that’s hysterically bad! At my work we probably haven’t even closed the application process yet so calling “next Tuesday” is a very good way to find out the person you want to talk to is “in a meeting”.
Leela* January 18, 2019 at 12:01 pm I used to get over 100 applications per job posting when I worked in tech. Oh my good lord I do not want to deal with 100 calls, which probably didn’t magically space themselves out to not overlap each other, from people I might know in a glance we wouldn’t be able to proceed with anyway!
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 2:33 pm Oh hell no. I always just say “Thank you for considering my application. I look forward to hearing from you.” Then they can either call me or not.
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 10:49 pm I usually follow that up with repeating my preferred contact information, since I may have more than one method listed in my resume, especially in these days of social media networking. “You can call or leave a voice mail at 555-867-5309, or feel free to email me at jedi@squirrel.net. Alternately, you can DM me on Twitter @JediSquirrel.”
Picky* January 18, 2019 at 2:36 pm Best shoot-yourself-in-the-foot job applicant: My work in a specialized industry involves about 20% direct service and the rest managing people who do much more of the public-facing work. As soon as the posting went up, a highly qualified candidate came in and asked about it. My staff were happy to give her more details, and suggested she make an appointment with me for an informational interview. Instead, she hung around for SEVERAL DAYS until the next time I was serving the public, and tried to pitch herself as a candidate while I was helping other people. I told her she’d need to make an appointment and gave her my card. She still did not make an appointment. She did apply, and although at this point I had reservations, I was still going to interview her as her qualifications were fantastic. That workplace was notoriously slow at hires, so there was a delay of about two weeks after the posting closed. She came in AGAIN and started asking my staff why she hadn’t gotten an interview yet. They told her to call me. She did not. One day a staff member came in to say the applicant had been in three days in a row in hopes of catching me in the public area. At this point, I crossed her off the list, went out and told her she would not be interviewed as she wasn’t able to follow directions.
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 11:02 am Thanks Allison and others who gave me advice last week on working for a small husband/wife organization. I did go to the interview and while they were very nice, my instincts were to turn it down. There’s only 19 employees, and only 6 on the business side of things. They pulled the “we’re like family” thing and while as a working mother having flexibility is nice, it seems like it would difficult to set boundaries with them. Plus in my area of the Midwest, most employers understand people work and have children. In my 12 years of motherhood, I’ve always worked it out. So as much as I need a new job ASAP, this one definitely was not for me. Thank you to everyone who told me what to look out for. I didn’t want to take something out of desperation. I am in the final round of interviews for two other jobs, and while I have been in this position many times only to get zero offers, hope springs eternal that the end is near!
Miss M* January 18, 2019 at 12:04 pm Yay! I’m glad you did what’s best for you and listened to your instincts. Good luck!!
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 2:01 pm Breaks my heart the stigma is still attached to small sized companies. But if boundaries are important it makes sense. I’ve told every one of my bosses/owners “no” and never had anyone meddle in my personal life aside from maybe my beloved boss paying attention to my car troubles but it was due to him being able to get me cheap mechanic work from his buddy in a few situations. Meanwhile tons of large companies treat you as easily replaceable and have HR issues just as much as places without HR. I do wish I could wipe “like family” off the face of the Earth though.
CatMintCat* January 18, 2019 at 10:18 pm I worked for a husband wife team many years ago – him, her, two employees, the cat, the dog and their kids in and out in the front room of their house. I was doubtful but it was a tough time in the industry so I took it with the intention of continuing to look while employed. Somehow, it worked and we are all still friends twenty-plus years later. I came to quite enjoy the relaxed atmosphere. It could have been so much different though.
Rozine* January 18, 2019 at 11:03 am Removed. Ugh, sorry all, this is someone who repeatedly trolls here on gay/trans issues and I didn’t catch it at first.
Bunny Girl* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I agree with this as well. Plus, if you did fire him, he could potentially sue your company. His beliefs might stem from his religion, and he could argue that he was let go on grounds of religious discrimination.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:14 am Yep, objectionable as the belief is, you’d be on really dangerous legal ground firing him for that belief (if it’s rooted in religion, it would be flagrantly illegal). The answer is, you do nothing unless you see it coming out in ways he treats people at work.
Peachkins* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am I’m inclined to agree. If he was treating his coworkers differently or using homophobic slurs, that would be one thing. But firing him just because he declined to sign a card and told you why when you asked? That seems pretty drastic. If his beliefs do become a real problem, I would cross that bridge when you come to it.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am “But now I don’t know if I should let him go or not.” Is that legal? Is that reasonable? How does that conversation sound like? “We’re letting you go because you’re homophobic although you’ve never mistreated or maligned anyone based on this belief and your performance is acceptable.” Is homophobic a protected class? You can definitely fire someone for being homophobic. It’s legal. Should Rozine do it? I don’t know. I think, Rozine, you should consult your HR department or some other folks at your company. There is definitely something to creating a safe working environment. At the very least, you need to make sure he’s professional and treats everyone equally (he’s not right now). That said, you can’t really change his beliefs. How important is not being homophobic to the mission of your company? I would hope it’s really important, but if it is, maybe you should work with your communications department to make that part more prominent on the website and recruiting literature?
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:22 am No, you cannot fire someone for homophobic beliefs if it’s rooted in religious belief and they aren’t treating coworkers differently in any meaningful way (not signing a card isn’t going to qualify).
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm , ’ (’ ). Because he refused to sign a card? No. So if I refuse to sign Gail’s card because she’s an abusive coworker, I’m in trouble? If he’s doing or saying things to those people, yes, he needs to be dealt with.
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am Was it really necessary for you to proselytize here?
AMD* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am I am not proselytizing, I don’t think, just offering an example of a perspective that would not sign a card, but would not otherwise cause problems with my diverse coworkers. Sorry if I sounded like I was pushing a point of view, that wasn’t my intention.
Sylvan* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am I’m frankly unsure how you could see people in the way that you described without treating them differently.
ElspethGC* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am Agreed. It feels very unnecessary. (Also, the use of the word “lifestyle”, which is pretty universally recognised as an *ick* word in this context.)
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:23 am She’s explaining her viewpoint on the question, which is allowed here, just as it would be fine for someone else to explain why they find the employee’s views abhorrent.
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Although comparing gay relationships to abusive relationships is pretty awful and I appreciate the apology below.
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am It’s also really offensive to call it a “lifestyle” which both AMD and Vitamin D have done at this point.
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am As an LGBT person, I agree with this comment 100%.
Sylvan* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am +.75? I might not do this immediately, and might spend some time watching and considering his behavior first so that you can be fully informed.
Countess Boochie Flagrante* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Eh, I don’t think that will necessarily accomplish much. Bad behavior of this kind can often be pretty invisible to people not directly impacted by it. The OP has a public statement and action to run with, and saying something based on that seems sufficient to me.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am I’m also a religious person (Christian, specifically), and I recognize that both research and anecdata show that gay marriage and gay parenting are as healthy as straight marriage and straight parenting. Your comparing it to abuse is bigoted and highly offensive.
AMD* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am Like I said, I wasn’t comparing it to abuse! Just to the feeling it would invoke it me, if a coworker I liked and respected said they were doing something that I genuinely felt like would be harmful for them. I couldn’t think of a better example, but I should have probably not commented until I did, and I apologize.
Sylvan* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am You aren’t comparing it to abuse, it just feels the same way to you and you think it’s harmful?
Sammie* January 18, 2019 at 12:40 pm AMD – I think some of your wording was poorly chosen and fell into some territory that can be very triggering for LGBTQ+ people and their allies (I as a gay person know what’s best for me, not anyone else), but I did appreciate that (I think) your point was that you believe the man can still treat his coworkers with respect. I haven’t personally seen that in action too much – I feel that it tends to seep through – which is maybe why I am sceptical that it can happen, but your perspective is different and I understand that you tried to say that in a way you thought was respectful. I hope this thread will help you – and others – continue their self-examination on how we communicate our beliefs and feelings etc.
Falling Diphthong* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am “rather than a firing thing” s.b. “much less a firing thing.”
It's a Friday Thing* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am “I would watch and make sure he treats his coworker the same as everyone else.” Now he’s going to feel that he’s on some type of watch list and if he thinks that his work allocation, performance reviews, or overall workplace quality has changed, he might attribute it to ‘being watched’. It is a ‘bosses’ responsibility to watch the workplace, assess the environment, and maintain the ‘health’ of the living organism we call ‘the office’ but let’s make sure it’s not explicit or persistent. Thankfully no one suggested he go on a PIP…
Person from the Resume* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am I agree. His beliefs are awful, but bizarrely good on him for it never making them known at work before. The only thing I might watch for is if he did start treating the bride differently (maybe he didn’t know she was gay before). And I ask you to please not let this information get out by you saying something to anyone else. Right now you know because you went investigating. Not signing a congratulations card is so minor. I’m surprised you noticed he didn’t sign. I’m betting the bride won’t check that everyone at work signed it. If she were to, she’d probably assume that he was out the day it was passed around or it missed him for some other reason. Let it go and try to forget this about it as long as he’s not treating anyone differently at work.
Mimi Me* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am I recently passed on signing a card for a person who was “retiring” from my company. I didn’t sign because 1) she and I have never got on and we weren’t going to miss one another, 2) she didn’t actually retire. She still works here but instead of being an employee she’s now a contractor. Her desk is still in place – framed photos displayed, personal mementos abound, etc. 3) she was insisting on an off site retirement party – to which we were expected to pay $35 a person. I noped out of it all and just let the card go by without signing. I believe that Thumper’s father had the best advice. :) If I were in the managers place, I’d keep an eye out for any issues from him going forward and act then, but if it was just about not wanting to sign the card because of his beliefs I’d do nothing. In my head I’d think differently of him for sure!
It's a Friday Thing* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am Everyone signs the card, Karen. Everyone. Now pass the cake please.
It's a Friday Thing* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am Only if you signed it really big and a flourish, signifying that you really care. Otherwise, inside piece with red icing that will stain your tongue.
Amy* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am I mean I am too, everyone misses a card now and again because for what ever reason they just weren’t around when it was being circulated.
Persephone Mulberry* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am I think preemptively warning him not to do something he has already not been doing is also overkill.
Vitamin D* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am Your employee has the right to not believe being gay is the correct way to live, and if they don’t want to sign a card that is fine too. Where your issue as a manager should be is if this person is willing to work with and be a good co-worker to all coworkers no matter what their preference in partners is. If they can’t work with someone who has this lifestyle then its time to let them know that it is unacceptable behavior and whenever they work with your gay worker you need to follow up with that worker and get their perspective and write up your homophobic employee as necessary because its not ok. I personally don’t believe the gay lifestyle is right, but I lump that in with that I also don’t like mushrooms and will not eat mushrooms. I have gay friends, go to gay weddings buy gifts, our nanny is a lesbian because its their choice not mine, and their lifestyle doesn’t make them less funny, less caring, or anything other than a lifestyle that I don’t believe is the “right lifestyle” so that’s on me. It doesn’t matter if I believe the lifestyle is right or not to anyone but me, if I ever make it about someone else (except for my husband) then there is an issue that I need to fix.
Rozine* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am I only asked because we sent around a list of names with the card and people could cross off their name once they signed, I thought he forgot or didn’t get a chance to sign. Then he told me he didn’t want to sign it
Passing through* January 18, 2019 at 11:44 am That makes sense. I was mainly asking because anything beyond “Did you have an opportunity to sign this?” can make it feel like signing is some kind of responsibility, not an opt-in thing. I’ve gotten pushback when I wouldn’t sign a retirement card for someone who’s last day was before my first day.
Anon for this* January 18, 2019 at 11:03 am It’s raise time in our office! Last year I was still too new to get a raise although I did get a promotion and a very nice salary bump at the six-month mark. For reasons, they announced raises this year would be a flat rate across the company. I was guesstimating 2.5% (this is what I received at old job when they did flat raises), so I was delighted when I saw the raises for my direct reports was 5%. I was floored when my boss told me they still felt I was underpaid, so I got 10%. I was nervous about quitting my last job. It was comfortable and I really liked the people I worked with, even my boss although managing people was NOT part of his skill set. Switching companies felt like jumping off a bridge. Now I really love the new job, I’ve had a lot of exciting opportunities to learn new things and travel and I’m making 84% more than I was at old job (where I was probably slightly underpaid, but that was the company as a whole, not just me).
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am Congratulations! May your good fortune spread to the entire AAM community!
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:04 am I’d like to get some outside opinions on how hard to push back against a signage issue in the restrooms at my workplace. Some signs have been appearing in the women’s restrooms at the hospital facility where I work and I think they are, at a minimum, pretty rudely worded. They’re posted above the feminine waste disposal boxes in the restrooms and state the following: “ATTENTION LADIES This box is here for your convenience Please use it properly. 1. Use one of the paper bags to dispose of your sanitary pads. 2. After placing the pad in the bag take the bag and dispose of in the trash container next to the sink. THANK YOU.” Originally, the signs were just posted in two of our staff restrooms. I thought they were annoying and kind of rude, but they also looked pretty old and they were just in staff restrooms, so I sort of rolled my eyes and just let it go. But now photocopies of the signs are showing up in public restrooms and I feel like I need to push back more on it, because I could see this coming across as really patronizing and rude to the patients and visitors in our facility. I get where the request is coming from, in that handling bodily fluids can be a hygiene problem and possibly dangerous, so the request itself doesn’t necessarily bother me – it’s just the phrasing of calling this using the boxes “properly” and the wording of the “convenience” line that are bugging me when I’ve never seen the boxes treated this way anywhere else in the past. If the sign said “Please help us out by doing the following:”, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. As a possibly contributing note, our housekeeping team, where I’m assuming the signs originated, is almost entirely male. The department that I’m in is also mostly male. Additionally, one of our facility’s goals is improvement in terms of providing specific services for women’s health in general, and I feel like this does not help with that goal. So my question is how far I should pursue getting these signs changed / how much of a fuss I should make, knowing that sanitary waste is usually a pretty taboo subject. I mentioned it to one of the people who usually helps with our signage contracts, but since these are photocopies of old signs, she didn’t know where the signs had come from and I don’t think it’s a priority to her. It’s been at least a month since I talked to her, but the signs are still there and I’ve discovered additional restrooms with photocopies since then. There are some other reporting options that I have – either submitting a formal complaint or work order or putting a note in one of our comment boxes, but, again, since this is such a taboo subject, I wanted to check and see if this comes across as problematic to others as it does to me. So, am I right in wanting to push back more against this to get the signs removed/changed, or am I overreacting? Are there some locations where this is normal and this is just a regional difference that I’m not used to? And do you know of any regulations or building codes requiring the provision of these waste disposal bins or how they are meant to be handled? I’ve found the ADA recommendations for the height of the boxes if they are there, but so far I haven’t found anything confirming whether or not they are an actual requirement to be there in the first place.
Lena Clare* January 18, 2019 at 11:10 am I hate the term sanitary/ hygiene products anyway because it implies that having a period is something unsanitary and not perfectly natural. Anyway with regards to the signs, I don’t see a problem with asking for it to be changed. I would prefer something like “please dispose of feminine towels and tampons in the receptacles provided” just above the bins and in the women’s toilet cubicles themselves. You could try to mention it, I don’t see the harm in suggesting alternative placements and phrasing.
MarfisaTheLibrarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am I figure anything in the bathroom, and anything with blood, is, while natural, fairly unsanitary, at least for other people to come in contact with. But I’m fond of just referring to them as “menstrual products,” both as more inclusive to non-menstruating women or menstruating not-women, and just less euphemistic
Susan Ryan* January 18, 2019 at 6:21 pm I use pads for incontinence. I quit using the other kinds 30 years ago.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am They aren’t saying to dispose of them in the bins provided, though – they want us to take a paper bag out of the bin, put the napkins/tampons in the bag, and then carry the bag out of the stall and throw it away in the larger trashcan out by the communal sinks.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am Ah, that is a little odd. I would ask if mini trashcans with liners could be provided for each stall. I can see where people might not want to carry the bags out of the stall with them.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am Right – I think that’s the source of the signs, though. Housekeeping doesn’t want to empty individual tiny bins, so they’re telling us to take the bags out of the stalls ourselves.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am I do think that’s worth pushing back on, because you’re inevitably going to get people either flushing their pads/tampons or putting filled bags back in the boxes to avoid carrying it out of the stall with them. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to expect the cleaning staff to empty the boxes or individual trash cans.
valentine* January 18, 2019 at 3:50 pm Copyedit the signs: Remove lines 1 and 3. Make as big a fuss as necessary until resolved.
Hooptido* January 19, 2019 at 9:06 am But maybe not. At the large hospital at which I work the budget for housekeeping and staff was cut dramatically as part of a larger cost reduction push. Cleaning patient rooms, clinics, operating theaters and other patient care areas is top priority. Other areas are cleaned, of course, but there are fewer person hours to do it so something has to give. This seems like a reasonable thing to me. Menstrating is natural. Don’t be ashamed to take your bag to the larger trash can.
misspiggy* January 18, 2019 at 2:34 pm So no privacy? That’s very unusual in my location, and would definitely result in noncompliance through people flushing them due to being too embarrassed to bring the bags out of the cubicle. You could argue that bins and bags inside each cubicle is far more likely to improve safe disposal.
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:29 pm It may be that the minibins are not big enough, or (what I suspect may be happening, because it happens at our office) is that people are sticking their used menstrual products in the mini bin without wrapping or bagging them. And thus the cleaners and people going to stick the used products in the bin have to see / find it hard not to touch other people’s used menstrual products. On the wording — I wouldn’t get heated about it, although you should suggest a better version (I’d pitch it as, the version you propose is more polite). I think it may be an effort to be extra polite — I’ve seen this with signs our building housekeeper posts, which can be a little odd or off-putting, but she is the *nicest* person and would never knowingly be rude or offensive.
In it for the $$$* January 18, 2019 at 4:45 pm This happened at my workplace and it was the housekeeping staff that had put them up (mix of male and female). We brought it up to the Facilities group (who oversees the housekeeping staff) and they agreed that it was quite odd and had them taken down. It hasn’t been an issue since (about 4 years ago.)
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am I would suggest using the phrase “menstrual products” to be more inclusive of trans men who also menstruate.
Ann O.* January 19, 2019 at 4:06 am I prefer the phrase “menstrual products” because I think it’s a better, more accurate phrase, but I don’t understand why women’s restroom need to be inclusive of men. Trans men’s menstruation needs seems like an issue for men’s restrooms to take up.
designbot* January 18, 2019 at 4:14 pm But that’s not actually what they’re asking people to do—they’re asking people to take a paper back from the box provided, put their pad in it, then carry that out of the stall to the trash bin and throw it away there. That’s a pretty unusual request.
S.Wench* January 20, 2019 at 10:34 am I’m not thrilled with the wording, but I wanted to focus on the box. If the decision is made to use the in-stall box solely as a receptacle for clean paper bags, not for used menstrual products, then the opaque boxes should be replaced with wire/mesh see-through baskets. You can see there are only clean bags in there, and it’s a visual reminder not to place used items in on top. (We are socialized not to leave used products visible — and it’s the “out of sight, out of mind” that makes the different uses of those in-stall boxes a bit confusing.)
Free for All Friday* January 18, 2019 at 11:10 am I’m confused. In each individual stall, is there a mini waste disposal bin, or is there only a bin with little paper bags?
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am They are little metal boxes mounted to the stall divider. I’ve only ever seen them elsewhere with a single paper bag in them and they are used as a mini trash can only for napkins/tampons. Here, however, in the locations with the signs, there are several paper bags folded up inside and I guess they want us to take out the bags, put the napkins/tampons in them, and then take them out of the stall to the larger trashcan by the sink.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 12:27 pm So I think the sign is irrelevant… I think the bigger issue is that for some unknown reason your custodial staff doesn’t want people to use the normal bins that 99.99999% of people use when available. That’s weird. Personally I wouldn’t do it, I’d use the bins as they are meant to be used as will most people who need it. I’d push back on the dopey cleaning policy.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 12:29 pm Also to add that most people don’t read signs of any kind so their proposed system is doomed to fail.
Lindsay gee* January 18, 2019 at 2:34 pm Yeah, one of the bathrooms at my workplace is like this-except there aren’t even bags. They just expect us to wrap up our pads/tampons in enough toilet paper and then take it outside of the stall to the main garbage bag. I find it in poor taste to be honest. It’s obviously not a big deal to dispose of it in a different trash can, but it somehow just feels so unnecessary to save the custodians a little bit of extra work. I’ve cleaned bathrooms for work before and it takes two seconds to remove the full bag and then replace it.
designbot* January 18, 2019 at 4:16 pm I’d tend to agree. Especially since the entire custodial team is male, I’d approach is like “I can understand how you wouldn’t realize this, but that’s not how those bins typically work, and you’re fighting an uphill battle if you expect people to follow a sign instead of doing what they’re used to doing in every other bathroom.”
CM* January 19, 2019 at 3:56 am Okay. They’re doing this in a super weird way, which explains why they need to post a sign, but I agree that it sounds a little bit stupid to call it a “convenience.” It makes it sound like they’ve done you a special favour by providing a service that’s standard in all public bathrooms. I probably wouldn’t complain about it, but if it REALLY bugs you, think of something funny and creative to write on the sign next time you’re in there to make the message sound more positive.
MattKnifeNinja* January 19, 2019 at 1:00 pm Those bins aren’t common in public restrooms where I live. The only one I know of is the big deal university medical office building. In my niece’s middle and high school, there are no menstrual products bins in the stalls. My sister’s work place actually removed those little bins to save money. Plant facilities outsources cleaning. They were charged MORE for fishing out all the stuff that was crammed into those little bins. There were insulin syringes, gum, food wrappers, empty pill bottles… If you see little bags in the bins, you put the used product in the bag, then take it to the trash. Housekeeping does what housekeeping is instructed to do. If it’s in house, they should clean up the bin crime scene. If it takes an extra 30 mins to decrud those little bins, the outsourced cleaning company will tacked on the more man power hours on next contract. My sister’s work had signs about how to properly used the bins. No one did, so they removed them. Half of the products never make it to the trash now. #gross
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:16 am I think you are overreacting. Those signs are pretty common, and the wording isn’t terribly problematic.
Data Miner* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am Agreed. Honestly, people might not know to use the paper bag and dispose outside of the stall. Its unfortunate there isn’t a disposal in the stall but I’ve seen people wrap up (ineffectively) in toilet paper and put in the trash by the sink and that’s much worse…
anonagain* January 18, 2019 at 11:57 am There are disposals in the stalls. The disposals are currently being used to hold empty paper bags. It sounds like a terrible system.
Autumnheart* January 18, 2019 at 9:01 pm I personally find it really weird that sharps and needles get a Special Bin with tons of symbols and cautions all over it for sanitary disposal, but the instructions around disposing blood-soaked menstrual products is “Everyone stick your hand in this communal lunch bag”. If being exposed to other people’s potentially infectious bodily fluids is so risky, why the hell don’t we have a better system for disposing of menstrual products?! I’m guessing Facilities doesn’t want to touch the communal lunch bag either and that’s the reason for the signs.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:14 pm I was going to say the same thing. I’m going to change my username to “Allison Jr.” :)
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:30 pm This is where I come down on. They’re pretty straight forward and it seems OP is zeroing in on a couple words that rub the wrong way. I wouldn’t take this complaint seriously if it came across my desk.
Lilian* January 20, 2019 at 9:33 am Yes, I really don’t see why you’re finding it so problematic, it’s pretty straightforward language.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:17 am The signs are probably there because “some people” don’t dispose of their feminine products properly.
Falling Diphthong* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am Totally flashing back to my college dorm on weekends, when the response of certain people to the little bitty can being full was to leave a bloody pad sitting on or next to the toilet. Because wrapping it in TP and carrying out to the main trash can was icky, I guess. Which is also why I don’t object to “sanitary.” It’s something soaked in blood; people don’t want to touch that, just like they don’t want to touch stuff soaked in another adult’s pee.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I don’t see a problem with the signs. I have seen signs with very similar wording in many public restrooms, so I doubt many people would be offended by them. I am a little confused by your question, though; is it just the wording of the signs that you dislike, or do you think there’s a problem with what the signs are asking restroom-users to do with their pads?
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am I’ve just never seen it done this way – everywhere I’ve ever been before, the bin is a little mini trashcan with a single bag in it. This one wants us to take a bag out of the bin, then carry that bag out to the large trashcan by the sinks. To me, it seems unusual and not how I’ve ever seen these bins treated elsewhere, so for the sign to say “use it properly” feels off. If that’s common in some places to have to carry the bag out to a trashcan outside the stall, I’ve just never encountered that specific process before, so that’s why I’m asking. If that’s normal for some, then I’ll just let it go.
Jen RO* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am My guess is that “properly” means “throw it in the bin, don’t flush it”.
Ihmmy* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm I haven’t seen this system either, but if it’s what the cleaners want done it’s not unreasonable to request lowering their exposure to other peoples blood. The “properly” would irk me too, but I get why they’d have signs explaining the less common process. Do you think you could draft a different way of giving instructions that was a bit more upbeat and suggest it to the person putting up the signs?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:11 pm That wasn’t clear. I’d prefer to use a bin in the stall, not carry out to the trash basically announcing it’s that time of the month.
Anonysand* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm I can’t speak to other regions in the US, but I’m in the midwest and this has been the set-up in every workplace I’ve had for the last ten years. It’s very normal around here and the argument I’ve heard is that it’s more “sanitary” because the custodial crew doesn’t have to directly handle the soiled products if it is bagged separately and dropped in the larger trash bin.
Natalie* January 18, 2019 at 2:08 pm Well, just as a counterpoint, I’m in the Midwest and spent a decade in commercial property management and that is not what we expected people to do. There was one bag in the disposal container and you were supposed to leave stuff in the bag. If we had wanted to give people bags to bring their used products to the trash, we could have purchased bag dispensers rather than metal boxes that are designed to be a trash can. Either way, if this was my building I would just put the instructions on the bin without the “use it properly” preamble, but I also think this isn’t a big enough deal to complain about.
Witchery* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm You mention that your cleaning crew is mostly men – perhaps they just don’t know how this works. Underscoring that possibility is the phrase “sanitary pads” which seems to really miss the tampon issue (Which IMO is bigger because people think they should flush those). In this case I don’t think your issue is the sign, but rather their expectation that people use these bags. I’d work on finding a solution that doesnt have menstruating persons confused and wasting little paper bags (this could be a conversation about how these should work, or even maybe a trash can in each stall if you have room for it?)
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am I’m a little confused, but it’s very normal to provide a box and/or mini trash can with instructions. I don’t think the wording is particularly bad, unless you mean specifically the part about taking it to the main bathroom garbage. If boxes/bins are available in each stall, people should be allowed to use them. I don’t think you’ll succeed in getting the signs removed. They’re there to prevent people from flushing their sanitary products, which is a problem for both the building plumbing and the septic system or municipal sewer system.
CTT* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I’m guessing if they’re feeling the need to put them up everywhere, then there is a problem with products backing up the sewage system, meaning that they aren’t being used properly. “Sanitary products” may not be the most updated term, but the message itself is one that people occasionally need reminding of.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Oh, it’s 100% normal to have signs saying to throw them away and not put them in the trashcan. I would never blink an eye at something like that! It’s just the specific instruction to take it out of the stall that made me do a doubletake.
Violet Rose* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am I wouldn’t worry about the signs too much. However, it sounds as though there are no small trash bins inside the stalls themselves, which surprised me, as I’ve personally never seen a public restroom without some discreet in-stall waste disposal! If your organisation is focusing specifically on improving services for women’s health, that might be a good angle to approach if you wanted to suggest adding trash bins to the individual stalls, which may even eliminate the need for signs.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am The bins are there – they’re just filled with folded up paper bags that we’re supposed to use to take the items out of the stall and to a different trashcan. I guess so that housekeeping doesn’t have to empty the little trash cans.
All About that Action* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am The bags thing is a little unusual, so people may have just been tossing pads and tampons directly into the box, which would problem result in the unused bags being thrown out. Perhaps this is the reason for the use of the word “properly”. Although I do not find it rude or problematic in any way…
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:35 pm TBH, I’d prefer that. Those little bins full of other people’s used menstrual products are gross. (Gross because they’re someone else’s blood, not because menstrual products are gross.)
Jen RO* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am I don’t see a problem with the wording – I’ve seen far, far more passive-aggressive signs. I would assume that the cleaners deal with many people who *don’t* properly dispose of the products, i.e. flushing pads and causing damage to the pipes, and are probably frustrated.
OyHiOh* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am Ehhhh Several state universities I’ve been around, in different states, have used identical wording in the women’s bathrooms, although the logistics are slightly different from your set up, with paper bags and mini trash cans located in the stalls themselves. I think you’re overreacting to the wording on the signage.
Rhymes with Mitochondria* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am I would push back, not on the wording, but on the whole “carry it out to the garbage can by the sink” part. They’re going to have MORE problems with flushing if they don’t provide in-stall garbage bins. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect used pads to be carried out to another garbage can. Tell them that “proper use” of the bathrooms would be in-stall trash cans.
Mockingjay* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am As a former janitor, I can attest to the need for the signs.
ANon.* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am I think the wording of the message isn’t the problem (the wording sounds fine to me, not particularly rude). The issue is the system itself. Many women might not feel comfortable taking a bag outside the stall to throw away in the larger trash bin by the sink, assuming this is a multi-stall bathroom where someone else might be in there and see. Though of course menstruation is a normal and natural thing, I don’t need my coworkers to know exactly when I’m on my period.
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm Not only this, but how many bags are they going to use? Do they expect them to use a new one every time they change a pad? I would be going through about six or eight a day. Are they going to leave enough bags for everyone to do that?
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 7:48 pm Yes, what if they run out of bags?? Also, there is a reason besides embarrassment to have a bin next to the toilet. Changing pads and tampons is a two handed job. What are you going to do with the bag meanwhile? You remove the old one, put it in a bag…then what? Put it on the floor? Balance it on your head?Ew. No, you need to put it in the trash while you are still sitting on the toilet, then replace with a fresh item, then flush the toilet and arrange your clothes, etc. I don’t want to be holding a bag during that whole process. You need a trash within arms reach.
Lola* January 18, 2019 at 11:39 am I would contact the EH&S department and ask them to research the signs especially since they have now moved to the public restrooms. We had something similar and it was a specific member of the janitorial staff that had an issue.
Xarcady* January 18, 2019 at 11:44 am I think the reason for signs like this is that in some places, there is a small trashcan or wall-mounted box in each bathroom stall for disposing of menstrual products and in some places there is a box with bags for the menstrual products which then should be thrown out in the regular trashcan, not the little box in the stall. My current workplace has the second arrangement and similar signs. If you are used to the first arrangement, you might put used products in the box that holds the bags, so some kind of notice/instructions are necessary. I agree the wording of the signs in the OP could be improved.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am Yeah, I’ve just never encountered that second version anywhere else, so that’s why I was asking. Knowing that it is a thing in some places, I’ll let it go.
Llama Wrangler* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like your concern is not about the wording of the signs overall as much as it is about feeling like the (mostly male) cleaning staff is asking people to put their menstrual products in the larger trash can rather than putting it in trash cans in the stalls, but framing it like it is for the bathroom-users convenience when it is actually for the cleaning staffs’ convenience. It doesn’t seem like a huge deal to me, but I agree with other commenters that if you could suggest individual trash cans in the stalls if you think people won’t want to have to carry bags of menstrual (or other stall) trash to the communal trash can.
EnfysNest* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 am Yeah, that’s a much clearer way of putting it, and thinkijg about it, that’s definitely what has me feeling uncomfortable about it.
Joielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm I’m on your side! I’m irritated about the whole thing just reading about it. Like, in addition to being a weird system (it sounds like other people have encountered it before, but I never have), there’s ALSO a patronizing sign. I don’t know that there’s a good way to push back without making it into an unnecessarily big deal, but for what it’s worth, I agree with you!
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:37 pm It’s not patronizing intentionally, I’ll bet. It sounds to me like a slightly awkward attempt to be polite.
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 11:50 am The @attention ladies’ wording would irritate me a little as it feels simultaneously patronising and insincere, and on a practical level, if the major problem is people flushing stuff that shouldn’t be flushed, the fact the signs don’t actually say that! If you’ve got suggestion boxes, I think what I would do would be to use them, and perhaps suggest a different wording which is more direct / which you prefer. I’d probably go with something like;. e.g. “Please do not flush tampons, pads, wipes or other products as this blocks the pipes. Please put any non-flushable waste into one of the paper bags provided, then put the paper bag into the trash containers by the sink. Thank you” If the suggestion box if large enough, maybe even make up a sample poster. It sounds as though they are just copying and using old posters, if someone gives them a new version they may be perfectly happy to use that instead, even if they are not interested in changing it themselves. I’m slightly surprised they are allowed to do it this way – are the trash cans by the sink normal trash cans, or dedicated ones for ‘sanitary’ waste? (I think here in the UK it would be illegal not not have proper bins, in a public building, although i don’t think it is specific requirement to have them in every stall, just that they are ‘easily accessible’)
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 12:06 pm The sign seems fine to me. I’ve seen what some women do to bathrooms so I think this fine.
Anon and on and on* January 18, 2019 at 12:55 pm In all my years, it has always been the practice to wrap it up and leave it in the box in the stall. Sounds like someone decided to try and change this. If I were to come upon this sign, I might comply, provided there is shelf space to hold the full bag while I continue “sanitizing” myself. And depending on how busy the restroom is. Unfounded stigma or not, I’m not going to announce myself by carrying a bag out of the stall with me. However, I’m also petty so if I were feeling like you are, I’d probably just start taking down the signs.
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm That language is really clumsy and awkward. But since the signs are just photocopies, be the change you want to see. Do something in word with a large font, print it, post it and throw away the existing signs.
Paris* January 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm I would spend some time talking to your maintenance staff and learning about their needs and the issues they are trying to address before taking this up the ladder. In all likelihood, these signs were put up by the staff to address an issue they identified. I certainly see the appeal of having to only empty one large wastebasket per restroom, and not having to pick up bags of used menstrual products from each stall. And yeah, “sanitary pad” isn’t the most affirming choice of words, but are these the people you want to have that fight with?
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 2:44 pm I agree OP could talk to them first, but they would have to check each stall anyway for TP, to make sure the pots aren’t trashed, etc. It’s not that hard.
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:41 pm Well, but why not help people who are doing are pretty unpleasant job and make it less unpleasant (or frustrating or whatever the problem is that they’re trying to solve). We see all sorts of issues raised here where one could say, “it’s not that hard” and just live with it, but why not talk with them and work it out?
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 5:40 pm That’s why I agreed with talking to them. It may be like this, and it may also be that one person just doesn’t want to do it.
Xarcady* January 18, 2019 at 3:42 pm Depending on the cleaning service, there might be one person who empties all the trash cans, and someone else who goes in and cleans the bathroom. That’s the case at one workplace I am familiar with–and they use the “bags to be put in in the main trashcan” system.
RNL* January 18, 2019 at 6:04 pm LOL our bathrooms have something similar but includes the line “janitorial staff should not have to deal with your USED products”. I actually should also have ours changed, as the bathroom is also used for a space we rent for meetings, etc.
Mel* January 21, 2019 at 5:09 pm Our office has a sign on the bins with something like: This is not a trash receptacle. The bags inside are provided to dispose of waste improper for flushing in the trash cans located in the bathroom.
Amazing User Name* January 18, 2019 at 11:04 am I’m at the interview stage and have a question about references. In a previous position I was on a PIP that I was going to fail but thankfully got a new job before I was fired. If I move forward with this position and am asked for references, which I haven’t been yet, I don’t want to list my manager from that job. I’m in a field where it would be HIGHLY unusual to not list a manager. I have another reference from that job who I can use but what reason can I give for not providing my manager? I can guarantee that if I don’t list my manager, they will ask to be put in touch with my manager. Thanks!
NowWhat??* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Could you say you are no longer in touch with that manager? This could be especially true if she has also moved on from the company. The next best thing is to offer someone who supervised part of your work on a project, even if they weren’t your direct supervisor.
Emilitron* January 18, 2019 at 12:18 pm What’s your old company’s policy on providing references? A lot of places won’t allow managers to talk about former employees (legal concerns) and the preferred method is to just provide HR’s contact info to confirm dates. Of course if HR woul dbe happy to put them in touch with your manager, well, there’s not much you can do about that. I’d also make sure that you say something in your interview to provide your side of the story – not belligerently, and not bashing on previous management, but mentioning in your well-thought answers to common questions like “why are you leaving” and “what have you learned”, when you say “One of my challenges was X; I improved by ABC, but ultimately I’m looking for a job more focused on Y.”
Amazing User Name* January 18, 2019 at 2:10 pm Unfortunately my former manager is still there, as is the other person I can provide, and they have no policy. Your second paragraph is really helpful, thanks!
Not a Badmin anymore* January 18, 2019 at 1:13 pm In the past, I’ve used people who are not my managers only because the manager don’t have the best understanding of the work I did (higher level in the org and had no idea of what I did day to day, I worked pretty independently). I usually used someone I worked closer with and that supervised work I did but I was not their direct report. I wasn’t pressed on why I didn’t use a manager but I think I explained in the online applications something like this person has a better understanding of the work I did/my working style etc.
MadameLibrarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:05 am I’m a rare teapot cataloger, who also happens to have an anxiety disorder. I’ve been having a lot of anxiety about my job lately, and after talking with my therapist I’ve decided to ask my boss for feedback, just so I know. We have scheduled check-ins once a week, and unscheduled teapot review throughout the week. My plan is to bring it up at our next unscheduled review and say that with performance review season coming up (in March; I can’t wait that long with my anxiety), I just wanted to check in and see how things were going, and that I understand if he wants to wait until our scheduled check-in. I wanted to get y’all’s opinion on that plan from a professionalism POV. I’m not planning on bringing up my anxiety unless it comes up in conversation and I feel comfortable in the moment.
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am As a rare teapot librarian with an anxiety disorder, I wish you so much good luck. Also, rare teapot catalogers are the best! And this sounds perfectly professional to me. I mean, you’re asking for feedback, which is good and normal and totally an okay thing to do. One trick that helps me, from one anxiety sufferer to another, is to write down my questions ahead of time and practice saying them out loud. That way I don’t forget or get too nervous to ask and I have a visual cue of what I want to say.
Binky* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am I think it’s totally appropriate to ask for feedback outside of formal feedback times. And no need to mention your anxiety. The more casual you are (or pretend to be) the better.
Jen RO* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am I would not find it unusual if one of my reports asked me for an opinion of their performance. I would actually think it’s great that they care!
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 11:35 am It sounds like you guys have a lot of ongoing communication, which is good! I think a scheduled check-in is probably a better time to talk about an upcoming performance review, but you might want to give your manager a heads up that you’d like to spend some time on that so she can have her thoughts pulled together. Be prepared for the possibility that you won’t get much information and understand that what information you do get isn’t likely to be binding; also be aware that with March coming up as soon as it is, this is the one time you can ask before then. I would be disinclined to mention your anxiety unless there was something specific you were requesting your manager do about it.
MadameLibrarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am My plan was to say something like, “I was going to wait until our scheduled check-in but since we’re meeting now, I’ll bring it up now – with performance reviews coming up, I was wondering if you had amy feedback for me. Is that something you’d like to cover during the scheduled check-in, or is now a good time?” Does that sound okay?
School Inclusion Specialist* January 18, 2019 at 1:17 pm Yes, and when I’ve gotten feedback that was general (like “great job in the meeting”), I pushed it a little and said “what am I doing well so I can focus in those areas” or something like that to hear positive feedback. My last job was super toxic which sent me into a spiral of anxiety. When starting my new job, I needed regular feedback (aka Reality Testing in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) to recalibrate. So I asked my new supervisor at the end of every meeting for feedback. It was super helpful and, I think, lead to my supervisor respecting me more. Please have this conversation and I hope it helps!
Boredatwork* January 18, 2019 at 1:20 pm I have the same issue – my anxiety makes me feel like I’m constantly failing! At your weekly check-ins you could suggest a time to talk about opportunities for improvement or things that went well that you should continue doing. Think of this as “optimizing” your processes and “being on the same page”. My boss loves it.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 7:46 pm Does your manager provide positive feedback as well as criticism& places for improvement? If not, look (listen?) back through Alison’s podcasts for the ones about feedback. Might be worth the listen anyway…it was for me!
Sluggy* January 18, 2019 at 11:05 am What’s the etiquette for requesting quotes? I work for a large org that does a ton of very different printed materials. In the year I’ve been here, I’ve gotten a sense of what printer does what best (ie we go to Raphael printing for something fancy but Wick printing for something quick and cheap etc.) for my dept. I also print materials for other departments and they often want me to “price shop.” I do it as professionally as possible but something about getting quotes for projects from printers who give us excellent service (and often nonprofit discounts) seems slightly insulting? For bigger projects it makes sense but for a $125 project it seems like an unnecessary hoop. Typing this out makes me feel a little ridiculous to be worried (it’s their job! We’re a nonprofit!) but I wonder if anyone else has experience with this, on either side.
NowWhat??* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am Totally normal! I’ve had to even do it with our internal print shop (I work in academia) and cross compare with other shops in town to make sure we were getting the best quote. Also it’s good to consistently do this in case their prices do increase, it’s easier to catch.
CTT* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am It’s so normal. I doubt they mind and are used to seeing it (a lot of places require getting quotes regardless of the cost of the proposed project).
CeeDee* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am If you don’t have specific procurement guidelines for anything in your company, and your hours aren’t tracked against specific billable hours to different clients, then for the sake of learning how to get quotes, I would treat all quotes the same. You want to give every vendor the same information. You are already familiar with what different vendors are capable of doing so that’s sorting method one and one of the best ways to get started. Basically you want to present the specifications of the product you’re looking for. In the case of printing (which I have no direct experience in), your looking for paper quality, color, timeliness, etc, I suppose. So you want to spell out what you’re looking for and what is most important. Are you willing to do not as nice paper because you need it quicker, or are all of the things important. Most of it can be done an emails. But in reality its no different than soliciting bids for movers, a house painter, etc.
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am If I read your question right, you are asking how to respond to other departments that want you to price quote? If that is right- I would put together a Preferred Vendor list, and if you have pretty standard or regular requests then I would add those with an estimated cost for that vendor. You could say something like “we have an established relationship with the attached list of vendors and their prices for standard jobs are inline or better than other vendors in the area. For jobs over $x.xx we will seek out quotes from 3 vendors.”
yams* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am First of all, do you have any requirements for record-keeping? Organizations tend to have some guidance about this issue specifically, regardless of your personal preference. For instance, for most projects I have to get three quotes from different suppliers in order to ensure that we get the best deal possible. I would definitely recommend to ask someone in your organization who also deals with vendor quotes how your organization likes to handle this, since you may be running afoul some audit requirements by not having a quote from a vendor. As for the small jobs, my advice is to develop a relationship with a couple of printers who can do small jobs so you can ask them to quote you and it won’t feel as awkward since they would know you and your organization’s requirements. As for the actual quote request, so long as you are formal and polite and include all the necessary information you are fine. Honestly, the most important bit is to include all the information. There are a couple of suppliers to whom I just send: “quote request #x, pls see attached, 20k/month, DAP wherever” but I have a very good working relationship with them and they know all the terms we have previously agreed to, whereas for other vendors I do go through the whole shebang. I hope I answered your question!
JanetM* January 18, 2019 at 11:35 am At my university, in my division, we have to get a quote from our internal Graphic Arts in order to have a total price so we can submit an order request. Same with any outside vendor. I don’t recall a vendor ever refusing to provide a quote. I mean, for tiny things like, “we need a $5 replacement key for this cabinet,” we don’t need a formal quote. But in general we do, if the prices aren’t listed in a catalog or online.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain* January 18, 2019 at 12:12 pm I’m a graphic designer and I do this all the time. $125 is a bit low to be getting multiple bids but it’s still good to have a few printers in each tier (low quantity quick print shop, medium-size quantity digital and/or offset presses, and special or high quantity offset shops), that way you can bid the job to a few vendors in the right category. The only “etiquette” for this would be to be sure to let the shops know when they aren’t getting the job (Hi Wick, that you for taking the time to give me an estimate. Unfortunately, another shop has a lower price and I will need to give the job to them. I value your service and will keep you in mind for future projects.) and if a shop is consistently being outbid, at some point you should stop asking them for quotes (they may actually do that for you. I’ve had printers that drop me if I never give them any work but keep asking for prices). I always keep in mind that I don’t want to rely too heavily on a specific printer in any one category because I need to maintain a network of options.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 4:08 am +1 (also I like the advice about keeping options open in different categories — hadn’t thought of that before).
Nita* January 18, 2019 at 12:36 pm Are you bothered by the bit where you get a quote from them but, despite excellent service in the past, you don’t come back with an order (because for this particular job, another vendor is better)? I used to hate asking for quotes for this reason. Now, if I’m not sure this vendor will get the work (or that the work is even happening), I just say at the start that the request is for a cost estimate. It doesn’t create the impression that I requested a quote for something I 100% want them to do, then didn’t like their response and gave the job to someone else. And as others suggest, unless you’re required to get quotes every time, a list of standard rates from each vendor will let you cut down on these requests.
KR* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm Totally normal. It’s completely normal to want to know how much something is going to cost before pulling the trigger on buying/ordering even if you know you are going to buy the product no matter the cost (or not buy it!). Many companies use a purchase order/invoice system so quotes are needed to secure a purchase order. Also if you are not invoiced right away or it is a long-term project, it allows your accounting department to plan for the cost.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 4:08 pm Getting a price quote from the vendor you plan to use is one thing. But price shopping is another. For larger projects, it absolutely makes sense to do it, and it is often required. But price shopping a $125 project is honetly a waste of time – and could wind up costing you money in higher prices.
KR* January 18, 2019 at 5:17 pm I guess it depends on how big your budgets are whether it makes sense to shop around for cheaper budgets. A $125 project might not seem very large or worth shopping around for, but if you’re doing 20 projects a year it might be worth it to save cash. I have extremely large budgets for my projects and I still shop around to make sure I’m getting the best price. It’s part of how we turn a profit every year.
Observer* January 21, 2019 at 10:01 am Not if you have to price shop EACH one. You’re going to lose the low cost vendors, because the cost of pricing these projects out winds up costing more than their profit. (Been there done that.) And the time spent on this winds up being significant – and more that you are going to save. Here is and example of what I’m talking about. Say you have $2,500 project. You spend and extra hour price shopping. If you are lucky you save 10% on the project – and you’ve just paid for your time plus some additional money right there. You won’t get that every time, but it’s important to make sure you’re not losing significant money. Now, split that $2,500 into 20 $125 projects. Even with small projects you have to allocate at least 15 minutes to price shopping. That’s 5 hours. That is a LOT of time – and any organization where a $125 project is that significant is not likely to be well enough staffed that spending 5 hours of staff time to MAYBE $250 in dribs and drabs of $10-15 at a time.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 4:03 pm If you are a non-profit you should have standard policies for what requires quotes. We, for instance require quotes for anything over $100 – regardless of who we’re buying from. Under that, we don’t do it unless required by specific regulations. It’s generally seen as not cost effective to price shop of smaller items unless it’s an area with known wide price variations.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 4:09 pm We, for instance require quotes for anything over $100 – regardless of who we’re buying from. Typo there – it should be over $1,000
Marie* January 18, 2019 at 4:18 pm I have to do this all the time in my position, so here’s the script I use: “Hi (contact person), how are you. Thanks for the (recent project), it’s going well / looks great / everyone loved the design / etc. I have a new request from another department which I’m seeking price quotes for in order to let them make an informed decision. The details are X, Y, Z. What would be your cost to us for this? Great, thanks. I’ll let the department manager know, and I’ll get back to you if they decide to move forward with it. I look forward to speaking with you next time. Have a great day!” Good luck!
designbot* January 18, 2019 at 5:27 pm I’m in the built environment, but I have a similar relationship with sign fabricators. I just always put a bit of context in with any bid request. On one job that might be, this is the same client as the Highgarden job and they loved the results so we thought we’d reach out to you again. But on another job it might be, the client is the Iron Bank and they require competitive bidding so we’re sending this out to a few shops. Or, this is being bid competitively but the client is very schedule motivated so if there’s an option for a rush job please include. All of these are scenarios that’ve happened in just the last couple of months, and the fabricators take it very well and often thank me for the context. I’d imagine printers would appreciate the same.
Hamburke* January 18, 2019 at 9:03 pm My husband has broken 3 office chairs since starting working from home. He’s overweight but not by much. He was getting paranoid until one of the same chairs was broken by our 70 lb 12 year old in the same way that my husband broke the first one. I generally think that office chairs aren’t made as sturdy as they used to be – an expectation that these will be replaced every 5 years or so.
Big Girls Don't Cry* January 18, 2019 at 11:05 am Any other overweight people get super paranoid after yesterday’s letter? I never really thought about the weight rating on chairs or the possibility that I might break one.
Free for All Friday* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I did research on office chairs in the last year. For popular chairs sold in the USA, most of them have a warranty for persons weighing between 250-300 lbs, more or less.
Not Maeby But Surely* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am I’m obese by the clinical definition, and I had never given it any thought before either. At least, not at work – I get paranoid if I sit in a creaky old wooden chair, though. It will definitely be on my mind now, although I have to think that if my work chair was going to collapse on me it probably already would have done so.
Artemesia* January 19, 2019 at 1:19 am My Dad came home one day banged up as his chair had snapped off dumping him on the floor. He was an average size guy, probably 170 or so. Within a week several other chairs in his division had done the same thing; apparently they all reached a metal fatigue point at about the same time. So even if a chair breaks — they break for lots of reasons.
WinethetimeKat* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I got a new Job last May.and the first thing they did was give me a new chair it was way different than every other chair. I felt they were singling out the “new girl”, Eventually they all got them but for a minute. The chairs are rated to hold 400 LBS and I thought they were getting it just for me. Not feeling that way now but I am a bigger girl so….
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm I kind of love the idea of having many higher weight rated chairs just around in other places. That seems really reasonable and kind.
Lola* January 18, 2019 at 11:49 am As an overweight individual, I always look to see if a chair looks sturdy before I sit on it. I don’t flip it over looking for a weight rating, I eyeball it. IF a single chair at work had broken with me sitting upon it, it would be the last time a chair would have broken. I do find that “modern” styled office furniture has arms that tend to cut across hips and are uncomfortable. I would have requested a larger chair if I had been assigned that as a permanent assignment.
Hamtaro* January 18, 2019 at 11:54 am Thank god the only chair I’ve broken was in the privacy of my own home lmao
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm Fat girl here! Broke a chair at work! I’m both fat and strong so I weigh *a lot*. I worry about it in this one really fancy room I have to go to for meetings with higher ups, but other than that, I don’t worry too much. I’ve noticed that even in Fancy Room they provide some alternative chairs and it’s not a big deal. I love my fat person chair. You wouldn’t know without looking closely that it is a fat person chair. It has great support. I would feel a lot worse about all of it if I were in an office that didn’t think ahead for these things or was petty in other ways that might relate to this.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm I’m in the range where I’m only kinda testing weight limits, so not too much really. Thankfully we have very sturdy furniture as well!
Catleesi* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm I totally am. Though I am paranoid like 24/7 about how my weight impacts of people view me, so it’s just another great layer to throw on there. I’ve never broken a chair *crossesfingers* but I have been sitting down more carefully the past 24 hrs.
JennyFair* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm I weigh approximately 240 lbs. So, so many chairs are rated at 250 lbs, but I’m not just fat, I’m also hard on things. I plop into chairs, wiggle a ton, etc. So when it came time to get me a new one, I flat out told my boss I would not take a chair rated less than 300 lbs, and ended up with one rated 350, and I love it. It cost considerably more, but I sit 8 hours a day, so. One of my coworkers is 6’8″ tall, and that kind of height also comes with additional weight, even if one’s body is in societally-approved proportions. Heavy duty chairs are not just for us fat people. But it’s also important to recognize that chair failure is not likely to be catastrophic, cartoon-style launching onto the floor. It’s generally a gradual wearing down of the chair that just happens to take place more quickly than usual. And TBH, most office chairs are not suited for their users, simply due to the amount of time they are used.
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 11:01 pm “And TBH, most office chairs are not suited for their users, simply due to the amount of time they are used.” This. I just had to order new chairs for our office, and chairs come in “hours of use per day” ratings. Some are only rated for 3-4 hours per day, others for 6-8 hours per day. We ultimately went with some that were rated for 8 hours, and were adjustable in eight million different ways.
Miss Pantalones en Fuego* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm I’m constantly paranoid about this and always have been, even though it’s never happened to me. I definitely look at the weight rating of furniture before I buy it.
Minnie* January 18, 2019 at 3:18 pm The only reason I am not paranoid is because I am short AF, so my overall weight is around what the average-height thin person weighs.
WS* January 19, 2019 at 2:42 am Yes, it’s happened (two at home, one at work, all in the catastrophic hitting the floor in a pile of demolished chair way) and…I was okay! All my padding helped! To be fair, none of these chairs went from “fine” to “collapse” in one go. All of them were showing considerable signs of their imminent demise and I ignored it.
EmmaTheFirst* January 18, 2019 at 11:06 am (Changed my username- apparently there are two of us!) So, I’ve learned after 2 months in my new job that my boss is a hypercritical, micromanaging nightmare…which is sort of exactly what I was trying to escape from at my last job. She’s weirdly sneaky/subtle about it, so it took me a minute to realize. It seems pretty common for people to move around between departments at my new org, so I’m going to take a look at our internal job board this weekend and just generally keep an ear & eye out. Ugh.
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am I’m sorry. It’s hard to feel like you escaped a bad situation only to find out youbreally didn’t. Hopefully something will come up soon!
Bunny Girl* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am Oh you must have gotten my old job! That sounds exactly like my old boss and situation. I transferred to a different department pretty easily, and less than a year after I took that job originally. Good luck! On another note, I had a meeting with the department manager after I announced I was leaving and she mentioned me possibly meeting up with the new victim, excuse me, person in my position and giving them some pointers. I agreed that I would but I think after my exit interview, they decided that the only thing I was going to do was tell the newbie to run so that never happened.
EmmaTheFirst* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm It’s so frustrating!! I know that I’m good at the kind of work that I do and have made a huge effort to start my new job on the right foot and be the best employee I can be. She’s just never happy with anything, and clearly doesn’t trust any of us to do our work. And she creates such a tense and stressful environment for my team (which feels doubly weird since everyone else in the office seems really friendly & relaxed).
Eccentric Smurf* January 18, 2019 at 7:35 pm That sounds exactly like my former boss. I actually stopped to wonder if Old Dept recently hired someone new because your post sounded so familiar. I love my job now that I’ve transferred to New Dept. Here’s hoping something better opens up for you soon!
Slartibartfast* January 18, 2019 at 9:01 pm Been there, done that. I couldn’t even write the @ symbol in emails properly when writing on sticky notes, apparently. Sympathies, and may the job search board be ever in your favor.
Gal With Burnout* January 18, 2019 at 11:06 am So, here is my mon-fri routine: Wake up at 5am. Leave the house at 5:15. Take the bus at 5:30. Nap fitfully until 7 and get off the bus at 7:05. Take a corporate van to work, where I clock in at around 7:25am. Work until 4:50pm, take the corporate van to the bus stop, enter the bus at 5:20, take another terrible nap until 7pm, arrive home at 7:30 or so. Eat, shower, do chores, play videogames or watch series with my parents for an hour or less. Go to bed at 10pm, fall asleep at around 11. Rinse and repeat. In case you weren’t keeping count that’s more or less four and a half hours of commute every day; sometimes I might even spend an extra 30 ~ 90 minutes on my way home because of traffic, and if I miss the 5:20pm bus I have to take next one at 6:15pm, which means I’m home even later, at around 9pm ~ 9:30pm. The city where my company is located is expensive. Moving closer to work unfortunately is not an option; I do not want to share an apartment with a complete stranger for reasons I’d rather not get into, none of my friends are in the lookout for a roommate, and my salary would have to be at least doubled for me to afford rent and bills for an apartment at a decent part of town – being a 5’2” woman in my mid 20s in a not very safe country means I have to be at least somewhat picky about where I live. The corporate center where our office is located is in the middle of nowhere. The corporate van can take you to a nearby shopping mall, but you’re more or less on your own to return, which can take a very long time because of lunch hour traffic (last time I tried it took me 30 minutes via Uber, and Google Maps says it would take me an hour plus two bus lines via public transportation). The only form of entertainment on foot is a high-end shopping center that’s adjacent to our corporate center – think shops like Cartier, Prada, Tiffany’s, Dior, Fendi, among others. It is a rather pretty shopping center, but after a while it gets a bit annoying to window shop 29k watches and 35k sequin dresses while being silently judged by the rich people that are actually there to shop. TL;DR: I’m tired. I arrive at work every day exhausted, wishing I was at home doing literally anything else. My job is unfulfilling and boring because I never learn anything new. I’ve spoken to my boss and my HR manager about changing roles, since my company is a Fortune 500 and thus they have opportunities abound, and they’ve both agreed to help me find something more fulfilling, but this is something that might not happen soon. I’ve taken several online training courses in the past to maybe someday become a supervisor or team leader, but it has led me nowhere so far. The leadership training courses my company has available are only for people who already are managers or directors. My commute at my old job was somewhat similar, but it had a lot of perks I don’t have here: several shops, restaurants, mini markets and parks that I could get to on foot, bus stops with plenty of bus lines, work trips so I could do some networking with colleagues from other offices and get one-on-one training sessions with them, flexible hours, and the possibility to work from home from time to time. I have none of that here. I sometimes miss my old job, but the truth is that, despite the perks, the job itself was also very unfulfilling, and there was a big possibility of that office being shut down soon. I left after my old company didn’t manage to transfer me to a different office. Anyway, I’m ranting. I believe I’m burned out and worried I might be falling into depression again, because sometimes I find myself wishing I could fall ill for a month or so just so that I can have some time off, but whenever I have any sort of time off the less and less I want to return to work. I’m so demotivated I know I’m not doing my best or working as hard as I could, which is just making me feel even worse overall. It’s a vicious cycle and a downwards spiral and I don’t know what to do. If anyone has any suggestions I’d truly appreciate it.
Pinky Pie* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am Sounds very familiar to me. Get up at 5:15, leave house at 5:30, drive until 7:05 when I got breakfast, get to work by 7:20, work a full day, go home, get kids, get them fed, deal with them, go to bed at 10:30. What helped was finding another job. This grind is a recipe for depression.
Muriel Heslop* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am I second finding a new job. I did a similar schedule for almost 3 years and it’s just not a sustainable lifestyle…because it’s not a life. It’s work + work-related travel and recovery. I really hope your company can find you something in a safer place or with a less brutal commute. Or you could find something closer to home.
Gal With Burnout* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm I’ve been in this lifestyle since I was eighteen, and I’m 26 now :’) it is super exhausting, but it’s also the reality of hundreds of thousands of people who live in this area. I’ve thought of finding a new job, but all of the good jobs and the great companies are situated in the city where I currently work – and I’ve been in this role for less than a year and I’m afraid to look like a job hopper. The job market in my home city is terrible; I’d have to cut my salary in half, maybe more, if I took something closer to home, and it surely wouldn’t be in a company as good as the ones I’ve worked for so far. My hopes is to be relocated to a different city where either housing is cheaper or the salary is better (or both), so I’m trying to stay sane while I wait (pray) for that to happen.
Coder von Frankenstein* January 19, 2019 at 3:22 pm Can your bosses give you some kind of indication of how likely that is to happen? Do they seem to do a good job at keeping these sorts of promises with other people? I would only wait for the transfer if you are very confident that a) your bosses can deliver, b) they will deliver, and c) they will do so in a reasonable amount of time. If you lack confidence in any of those, you’re better off looking for a new job. As to job-hopping, remember what Alison always says: A pattern of short-term stays is bad, a single one is okay. A 2-hour commute is brutal and any interviewer would understand. If all the good jobs are in Faraway City, then you could put a priority on looking for one where the commute resembles OldJob: Lots of stuff to do and see on the commute, occasional telecommuting allowed, etc. And do keep an eye out for opportunities in your home town as well. There may not be *many* good jobs in your home town, but that doesn’t mean there are *none*.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am If you were able to find a more fulfilling role would that mean a better location or would you still have the commute? Because the best job in the world won’t help that commute and that schedule.
CupcakeCounter* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am Have you looked around for other jobs? Is there a place you would like to live that is more cost effective? Basically its time for a new job because that doesn’t sound sustainable long-term.
Aleta* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am I don’t have any advice, but I’m in a similar boat. My commute is more 6am-6pm, so a little better than yours, and it’s rouuuuughh. I’m a year in and been feeling it a lot this week in particular. Mine is an obviously dead-end receptionist job, which I’m not opposed to in and of itself (I’m allowed to entertain myself during downtime and am perfectly comfortable doing so), but coupled with the long commute and so lack of free time to do things that can’t be done at my desk during work hours (video games! drawing!) it’s rough. To top it off I’m fairly certain I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome and I want to go back to a second shift schedule so badly. It’s only gotten to “ok this might actually be unbearable” this week, so I’m not sure what I’m gong to do yet. But I super feel you!
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am Is your work something you could do from home and telecommute? Even a few days a week that may help alleviate your stress.
Gal With Burnout* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am Unfortunately not. I’m a local IT support analyst, so I have to be in the office to do my work. That was the cool thing about my old job; I was also a support analyst, but all my support was via e-mail and my company’s portals were all external, so occasionally I would take my computer home and work just the same as I would in the office.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 1:02 pm This is awful, and you have my deepest sympathy. Is there any way that work could set you up with a texting interface you could access on a phone, where you could triage issues on the bus and get to work 8 or 8:30ish, counting some bus time as work? If only as a way to get more sleep – 11 – 5 often isn’t enough. Also, what would you do if you had free time – hang with a friend, learn a skill, play a hobby? Is there any way to work those in to the existing schedule? Eg, could a friend ride the bus with you 1 night / month, maybe stay overnight? Can you schedule some kind of ‘I’ll call you Wednesdays at 6:30’? Social time can help. This does suck. Good luck…
Yikes!* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am Something’s going to have to give. The commute is unsustainable. So you will either have to find a job closer to where you live, ask to work from home a few days a week to lessen the commute, deal with whatever issues you have with an “unknown” roommate and get an “unknown” roommate, or hope that one of your friends will need a roommate soon. Is this current commute better than living with someone you don’t know? As in, hypothetically, let’s take any other option off the table, your only options were to keep your current commute and live where you currently do OR move closer to work, have a much shorter commute and live with a stranger. Which would you choose? Also, would having your own car and driving yourself to work shorten the commute at all?
Gal With Burnout* January 18, 2019 at 12:09 pm If dealing with issues was easy, trust me, I would’ve done that already. At the moment I’d rather keep my commute and stay where I am rather than live with a complete stranger. And unfortunately not only do I not own a car (in my country it’s crazy expensive to buy and keep a car) I also don’t have a driver’s license, but even if I did, driving back home would save me maybe a total of thirty minutes each way. Maybe.
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:50 pm Could you look for a job in a cheaper city that is not part of the company you currently work for? That is, relocate. Not an immediate solution, but then, neither is waiting for your current employer to relocate you or give you a better job.
agmat* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm That sounds rough. Personally I think you should look for another job soon if it doesn’t seem they are going to support your growth. You’ll burn out a lot more quickly if you don’t like your job AND your commute. In the meantime, to make the commute more manageable I highly recommend learning knitting or crocheting. Knitting has been a life saver for me and helps me feel productive when I’m feeling down.
Aspiring Chicken Lady* January 18, 2019 at 12:36 pm I second the use-commuting-time-to-recharge-the-soul thing. Even if sometimes you need to sleep. Knitting, reading, audiobooks … And then some slow but steady networking so that you can build the relationships that help you meet people who become not-strangers that maybe you could live with at some point. Or who might have leads on a new job. Nothing’s impossible if you can make incremental change toward your goal.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 7:55 pm Thirded…I had a friend who spent 90 minutes one way on commuter rail. He *hand-sewed* a replica 14th century linen “Greenland gown”, complete with a couple of dozen linen buttons. I hand-hemmed hslf of a full-circle cloak before moving and losing the commute…
Cowgirlinhiding* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm It is possible to use your commute time for something productive? May listen to books or if light permitted, read a book, sew, crochet, watch movies on smart phone, learn a new language, anything else that can keep your mind going while you are traveling. Your job sounds very unfulfilling and you should continue to push for a change within the org. Challenge yourself to pick up new things, be the first to volunteer for extra projects to change things up a bit. If physically you start to feel depressed, it is good to get a health check and make sure that it isn’t the job but a health issue. Good luck, hang in there, at least you don’t have to be the driver.
Being PushedOut* January 18, 2019 at 1:05 pm Oh, I had the same thing before, traffic was terrible where I was from. I quit my job and stayed at home for about a year & a half, but I guess missed working & commuting lol so I got another job that’s 30 minutes less travel-but still terrible. I feel like there’s no solution, it is what is. You just get used to it. Until we moved to a different continent altogether and the commute time was way better. But I liked working back home still, the work itself and my officemates. Here, I’m looking for a different job now, the culture here cares less I guess…
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:50 pm Unless you’re truly in love with your job, this sounds unsustainable and miserable! And you’re only getting 5hrs of sleep a night, you’re young, that may change for you in a few years. It did for me! I would focus on changing jobs if you cannot move. I’ll never live with strangers either and I’m a giant with no fears, just high standards.
What’s with Today, today?* January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am I’m two weeks into my promotion and in the past week between the three stations, I’ve covered some rough stuff. Two high school students died in a car accident & two other teens in the vehicle are still in critical condition. It was a single single vehicle accident and I got to the scene too early and I saw too much. During the school sanctioned prayer vigil, our beloved football coach texted his team that he’d taken a new job. The news broke as all the kids were all leaving the vigil. I’m salty about the timing. In my head I know those things happen. In my heart I think he could have asked the other school board to call a special meeting a few days later so he could have at least attended the vigil(hiring like that get pushed back. It happens, I’ve seen it more than once in my 17 years). Instead, he was getting pics snapped with his new board. A well loved math teacher at another school district we cover was killed in a separate car wreck. A young, drug addicted mother has gone missing in the woods near a swollen, flooded river. She called 9-1-1 more last Thursday and said she was being chased, she was disoriented. Her phone died. It’s been a week. They found her car, wrecked. No activity on her credit or debit cards, they’ve used sonar to search the pond and river, they got warrants for her phone records & her Facebook account. No trace of her. It’s cold at night. Where is she? They are searching like crazy. I mention the addiction because they feel like her disappearance is drug related and are questioning some of the folks she ran with. A deputies home burned down. He’s a single dad. They lost everything. It’s not really about me, but it always takes a toll and I need to get it out. I’m complaining to y’all because I’m being selfish. It’s not about me, but I’m so tired. It’s been all bad all week. I’m sorry for the selfish post. In funnier news, our sheriff reports a feud between a mother and her daughter in law resulted in the son’s Tahoe being absolutely smashed to pieces by frozen deer roasts. They were in the deep freeze near the car, so I assume that was the closest weapon of destruction. Every window busted out by blackstrap and deer roast. Also, an adult son went to drive while intoxicated so his dad jumped on top of the car’s hood to stop him. Son didn’t stop. Police were called and a slow speed chase ensued. Daddy hung onto the hood, wearing only underwear, during the entire ordeal. It was about 20 degrees out. When they got the son to stop finally, daddy reported he’d “about froze my pecker off.” All in a week’s work.
Lily Rowan* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am Wow, that is a lot! And secondary trauma is a real thing, so don’t feel like you’re being selfish — this stuff affects you, too.
WonderingHowIGotIntoThis* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am +1 on the secondary trauma thing. Make sure you get the appropriate support. “…got to the scene too early and I saw too much” is a worrying phrase.
TeapotDetective* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am Holy cannoli, what a week! I’m sorry you’re dealing with that – it’s a lot to handle, even if the majority of it is at one remove. I hope things even out and get a little less emotional soon. And the idea of someone using deer roasts to bust up a car is pulling up some pretty entertaining mental images.
wingmaster* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am I’m so sorry you’re going through all of that! Not a selfish post at all. I hope things calm down soon.
Ama* January 18, 2019 at 11:39 am I worked for a mental health therapist for a year — even though I wasn’t directly involved in the therapy sessions there were days when the admin I had to do was more urgent (for example, if we were helping arrange a voluntary hospitalization), and also days when patients who were upset about something in their personal lives lashed out at me or one of the therapists within my hearing. It’s hard to work around that much emotional pain even if you know it doesn’t really have anything to do with you, and it seems like your community is going through a lot right now.
Snickerdoodle* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am You are NOT being selfish. Take the time to take care of you. You’re the only you you have.
Miss Fisher* January 18, 2019 at 12:03 pm That is a lot for any town I would think. I love your user name, Empire Records is so quotable. Also, it amazes me that some MILs are so nasty. Buzzfeed did 3 articles recently on that alone and it was always the Husband’s mother who was being nasty. I wonder why that is.
Nita* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm I’m sorry, what a rough week… And good for Underwear Dad, that’s some serious commitment to not letting his son drive drunk! Glad no one got hurt.
Joielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:48 pm Hey, you’re doing the right thing – comfort in, dump out (you probably know about the ring theory of venting, but if not, definitely google it!). This is the perfect place to talk about all this since we’re not involved at all. As others have already said, secondary trauma is a thing and you need and deserve support too.
Wishing You Well* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm I am sorry. Please use any or all self-care techniques you feel up to doing.
What's with Today, today?* January 18, 2019 at 1:37 pm Hiking is my thing, and I’m 15 minutes away from hitting a nice, long and quiet trail.
What's with Today, today?* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm And oh my, all those typos! I wrote this pre-coffee early this morning and saved it with the intent to post. I didn’t proofread.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 2:42 pm Typos don’t count here, no one cares. Your post is very readable anyway. I’m sorry about all the crap going on. My good boss has a wildly understated expression: “Life is hard, NSNR.” Yep, Boss. It sure is. We have to deliberately look for the good stuff. The bad stuff just happens on its own.
froodle* January 18, 2019 at 1:31 pm The dad in the last story is the dad we need, but not the one we deserve
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 pm “The dad in the last story is the dad we need, but not the one we deserve” If Malcolm in the Middle had ever gone on to cover the kids in college and beyond, I can see Bryan Cranston doing this with Reese behind the wheel. For some odd reason, “middle aged guy in underwear” always translates to Bryan Cranston in my mind.
Best cat in the world* January 18, 2019 at 1:44 pm Not a selfish post at all. I know exactly what it’s like to be overloading because of other people’s tragedies. I have stood and fought back tears watching devastated families cry because there is nothing more we can do. It’s not my tragedy but being involved or even on the periphery is enough. Please take care of yourself as well.
Midwest writer* January 18, 2019 at 2:03 pm Oh man, I have been there, at the crash scenes too early, at the fires, at the other tragedies over the years. Plus then comes the need to interview the surviving family members. I hope you get some time to decompress and process everything this weekend. I’m sending vibes for a quiet couple of weeks moving ahead. It’s so hard and it’s definitely not something anyone ever tells you about before you go into the news industry.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 2:44 pm My husband used to be an insurance adjuster. He said, “You’d rush like hell to get there and pray all the way that you were the last person to arrive.” Some jobs don’t pay in what they take out of a person.
Pinky Pie* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm I think learning to separate yourself from the trama is a hard skill to learn but so important to long term survival. I heard things in my former profession that made it become my former profession.
Observer* January 18, 2019 at 4:16 pm Nothing selfish about this post. You DO need to unload it, and this is the best place – you’re venting OUT not in. I’m glad too see that you can still see humor. That helps.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 8:04 pm So much agreement. May you never lose that humor.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am Last week, Wakeen, the lowest-performing teapot maker in the department, was scheduled to work Monday through Wednesday. Normally when he works these days, his schedule overlaps with that of Jane, the top teapot maker who always does far more than her share of the workload, and two other teapot makers, Carrie and Mike. This time, though, Jane was on vacation. All day Monday, Wakeen complained about how much extra work he had to do since Jane was on vacation. He scheduled his annual physical for Tuesday morning, which took about 3 hours. When he got back from his physical, he looked around to see what Carrie and Mike had done while he was gone. It was obvious that he had expected Carrie and Mike to do all of his assignments before he returned, and he was angry that they hadn’t (because they already had an increased workload due to Jane’s absence). He stormed out and then called his manager and said he was going home sick because he was vomiting. He also called in sick on Wednesday. I suppose it’s possible that Wakeen coincidentally fell ill right after he discovered that he was actually going to have to do the work he was assigned instead of spending all afternoon on Facebook as he normally does, but… unlikely. Mike and Carrie really got screwed over because they were already short by one person, so Wakeen’s absence meant they had to do all the work with half the people. Management doesn’t usually question people about sick days, and they normally only require a doctor’s note for people who are out sick for over a week, but it seems to me that Wakeen was pretty blatantly faking, and I think he should have been subject to extra scrutiny in this instance. So, what do you think Wakeen’s manager should have done?
LQ* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am If Wakeen’s work is measurable then Wakeen’s boss should be holding him to a level regardless of sick. Here’s the thing. He’s already wrong if he’s not doing the amount of work he should be doing.
designbot* January 18, 2019 at 7:34 pm ^^ This. Wakeen calling out sick is just a symptom of the bigger problem, which is that the company is letting him freeload. If I were Wakeen’s manager, I’d actually address that free and clear from the sickness, for example by mixing up the schedules and not giving him so many opportunities to rely on Jane. Keep track of the numbers—if his load only gets done when Jane is present, that’s worth asking about. It’s also worth having a conversation with Jane where you say that it’s come to your attention she may be pulling some extra weight and is there anything she’d like to talk to you about.
RAM* January 20, 2019 at 5:13 pm I wouldn’t just hint at it, I would outright have the conversation with Jane (and Carrie and Mike and anyone else on his shifts) that they are NOT to do any of Wakeen’s work anymore, or that they inform you of everything they did that wasn’t directly assigned to them.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am What’s your relationship to them? If your workload was messed up by this, it might be worth bringing up with your manager in case it makes you look bad (like, you are later on in the teapot chain and got fewer widgets done because of problems up the chain, or you’re in quality testing and a lot of them were testing as failures). If you’re Wakeen’s manager, you need to tell him to knock this off. If you’re a bystander, just be sympathetic to Jane, Carrie, and Mike.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am I’m pretty much just a bystander. I’m a teapot analyst, so my work is related to the teapot makers’, but they completed all the work that affects mine, so it wasn’t an issue for me. I’m not planning to do anything, but I have been mulling over what Wakeen’s manager should have done.
learnedthehardway* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm Hmmm… as a teapot analyst, do you have any opportunity to do an analysis of the various workloads performed by Wakeen, Jane, Carrie & Mike? Probably wishful thinking, but my spouse just completed a study like this of his department, which allowed him to point out to TPTB that he was totally right to have fired one of his lowest performing staff people.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm Funny you should ask, because I recently offered to do this. It is extremely easy to set up a report for this in the tracking software we use if you know how to do it, and I know how to do it (actually, I have already set it up and can run a report for any time period on demand). When I suggested it, my grand-boss (who is also Wakeen’s grand-boss) looked HORRIFIED that I would even think of something that is such a micromanaging invasion of privacy. Apparently, management thinks productivity stats for their own department are none of their business. I will say, though, that they don’t need an analysis to know that Wakeen is the lowest-performing teapot maker. They already know this and gave him such a bad rating that he got no raise two consecutive years. There have been many complaints about his poor work ethic, and management claims that they are addressing it but can’t divulge any details due to privacy.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am The manager should have handled Wakeen long before this incident. The manager is failing to manage.
Lola* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm Actually, the manager should have handled the entire department prior to this incident. If his weekly output is so dependent on one person, then there should be some safeguards in place when people are absent.
Ama* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Yes, and having been the Jane in this kind of situation before, I would add that if she thinks management will never do anything about the uneven workload she’ll probably be gone soon.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm Yeah, Jane is doing the work of two people in exchange for one person’s salary. Don’t assume Jane will be sticking around long term in that situation.
Marthooh* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm Yeah, the (probably) fake sick day is beside the point. Having the boss scrutinize this particular incident won’t get to the actual problem, which is that Wakeen underperforms and his boss lets him.
pony tailed wonder* January 18, 2019 at 1:35 pm I think the sick time thing is a red herring. He has x amount of sick days (I am assuming) to use when he is sick and only he and his medical team know what his health is like. I wouldn’t play the pretend you are a doctor game with anyone at work. And realize that some people don’t react well to stress and that situation may have stressed him out and affected his health. Perhaps his manager knows his limits and is working with him. You just don’t know what the manager and Wakeen have worked out between themselves.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 2:01 pm So you think it’s ok to use sick days to fake illness because it is a day with a larger than normal workload and you don’t want to do it, and as a result, stick already overloaded coworkers with even more work? I’m not saying I know for sure whether this is or isn’t what happened. I realize there is a chance he was telling the truth and he actually was sick, but to everyone who was there when this happened, it appeared very obvious that he was faking because he didn’t want to do a heavy workload. This is also very consistent with the type of person he has shown himself to be during his time in the job.
pony tailed wonder* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm It is not a good look to be second guessing anyone’s illness. You don’t know for certain what is going on. You all have the same amount of sick days I am assuming. If he wastes his on real or fake sickness, it isn’t your concern. My fiance has a disability that isn’t obvious when you first meet him but if you saw the amount of medications he has to take to get out and about and how often he has to go to the doctor, you would be astonished. The rude questions he gets from strangers who see him getting the disabled seating and parking spots is mind boggling. Bottom line, unless you are that person or on his medical team, you don’t know what his health state is. Commenting on it with rude snarky remarks makes you look bad. People are going to wonder what you say about them behind their backs as well. It’s better to not say anything at all about why he isn’t there. His illness (real or fake) isn’t your business.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 8:27 pm Well, if I were asking from Wakeen’s perspective, what would you think? The lady who usually does most of my work for me while I spend half the day on Facebook is on vacation this week, so I am actually expected to do a full workload this week and it sucks! I scheduled my annual physical today, thinking that my other coworkers would do my assignments for me by the time I got back, but they didn’t. Is it cool for me to pretend I’m sick so I don’t have to do the work I was assigned to do and somebody else has to do it instead?
Traffic_Spiral* January 19, 2019 at 2:56 am Obviously he shouldn’t be faking sick to get out of work, but since you have no way of knowing or proving it, there’s not much you can do about it.
WKD* January 19, 2019 at 4:43 am Alternative version: “I recently took a morning off to have my annual physical. Unfortunately I got some bad news at that appointment. I went back to work after but I felt terrible and had to go home sick. Now there’s this person at work who claims I was faking it and keeps accusing me of trying to avoid doing my work. They’re not my manager and my absence didn’t affect their work at all. They’re just a nosy, interfering pain in the behind. My manager knows the truth about my medical situation, but I don’t want to have to broadcast it to everyone to get this jerk to leave me alone. What should I do? ” The thing is, you’re making a hell of a lot of assumptions from a biased perspective here. I think you’ve gotten yourself focused on this one thing and are massively overthinking it. If it affected your productivity you’d have cause to be concerned. As it is, you just seem to dislike Wakeen and are determined to look at this from the worst possible angle. That makes you look bad too. Regardless of whether or not he was faking, the actual issue is poor management here. Don’t waste your time being angry with Wakeen. It’s not helpful or productive.
Susan K* January 19, 2019 at 6:21 pm Uh, wow, that’s pretty harsh. You do realize (or maybe you don’t?) that I haven’t done or said anything and I don’t intend to because I’m not Wakeen’s manager and I have no authority to do anything, right? And at this point, it’s too late for Wakeen’s manager to demand a doctor’s note or make Wakeen go to the company doctor, anyway. I am simply asking as a hypothetical what Wakeen’s manager should have done in a situation where he had reason to suspect that Wakeen was misusing his sick leave in a way that had a negative effect on the rest of the department. The comment to which you replied was a question of whether it’s right or wrong to fake sick in order to get out of something you don’t want to do and thus add to the workload of your honest coworkers. Nobody but Wakeen will ever be sure whether this is or isn’t what happened, but HYPOTHETICALLY, if this is what happened, would it be ok? I am not the only nosy, interfering pain in the behind who believes that Wakeen was faking it. All of teapot makers believe this is what happened, and I have heard a lot of discussion about it, including speculation that the previous manager wouldn’t have allowed him to get away with it and would have given Wakeen an unpaid suspension for misuse of sick leave. When you work with someone long enough, you get to know him pretty well. The teapot makers are a pretty tight-knit group who know a lot of personal things about one another. They know what kind of person Wakeen is and based on their experience with him, they think this is something he would do. (Also, it’s unlikely he got bad news at his physical, because he passed.) And I normally give people the benefit of the doubt about a lot of things, but when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Let’s say a diamond-encrusted teapot went missing, and later that day, someone sees a diamond-encrusted teapot sticking out of Lucinda’s purse. We can come up with a story that Lucinda coicidentally stopped at the store on her way to work and purchased a diamond-encrusted teapot, for which she had been saving up all her money for months, as a birthday gift for her dying mother whose last wish was to own a diamond-encrusted teapot, the same day the one from her own workplace went missing. But her manager is probably going to want to see the receipt, right?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 3:14 pm The thing is, if he was a great worker, this would not even be a question for you.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 6:11 pm That’s true — if he were the kind of person who steps up to the plate when there’s a lot of work to do, faking sick to get out of doing work would be inconsistent with past behavior and I’d be much more likely to believe him. One time, Jane called in sick because she was vomiting. The other person who normally would have been working that shift was on vacation that week. This is a position that is required to be staffed by a certified teapot maker 24/7, so management desperately tried to find a replacement but couldn’t reach anyone. Jane drove all the way to work (stopping to vomit on the side of the road a couple of times). The manager saw her in the parking lot and said, “Oh, sorry, forgot to tell you we found someone to cover the shift after all.” If it were Jane who said she was vomiting and had to go home sick last Tuesday, darn right I would believe her.
valentine* January 18, 2019 at 8:22 pm Wakeen was truly sick at the thought of having to work, though I don’t see why he would have to. Had he stayed and adhered to his SOP, would his supervisor have taken him to task? Jane being a martyr isn’t good. Driving while nauseated can be reckless and she can advocate herself at any time. Do you know her well enough to suggest it or to ask if she wants you to push for the report?
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 8:56 pm I don’t think it was a good idea for Jane to drive in that condition, and definitely not to be at work in that condition (and I think that’s why the manager didn’t tell her that he found someone to cover the shift after all — he probably assumed it didn’t matter because there was no way she was coming in regardless), but my point is that I know she is not the kind of person to fake sick. If she says she’s too sick to work, I don’t think for a second that she’s lying to get out of working hard because that’s not who she is. I basically used to Jane, when I was a teapot maker. The other teapot makers would blow off their work because they knew I would bust my butt to get everything done on time. It’s a big part of the reason I applied for my current position of teapot analyst — I was seriously burned out from carrying so much of the teapot making workload (even more than Jane, which I know because that was why I set up the reports in the first place). I have also been in the position of having an unusually heavy workload because there was extra work and/or someone was on vacation, and then someone would call in sick in addition. I am 100% in favor of people staying home when they’re actually sick, but there are definitely people who have a pattern to their sick days and it’s too much to be a coincidence. That’s why what Wakeen did bothers me so much, and I think the manager should have done something about it.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:35 pm He can claim a mental health day in the end. Is he gaming the system? Yes. Can you really gun for this incident, no. He needs to be fired for bad performance and attitude. Sick days aside. Signed HR, we don’t investigate sick days. You use them as you will, even if it’s to pick your wedgies all day long.
Susan K* January 18, 2019 at 6:29 pm At many companies, including this one, sick days are not the same as vacation days, and we can’t use sick days at will to pick wedgies. Sick days are only allowed for specific reasons: (1) you are too sick to work; (2) you have a contagious illness; (3) you have to care for an ill family member; (4) you have a medical appointment. For the most part, sick days are not investigated, but under some circumstances, they are. Anyone who is out sick for more than a week must provide a doctor’s note and be cleared to return to work by the company doctor, and managers can require doctor’s notes at their discretion in other circumstances. We have a fairly generous amount of sick leave with unlimited accrual and most people don’t use it all. If it were considered acceptable to use it to go home “sick” to get out of an assignment we don’t like, we would have huge problems. Carrie and Mike were pretty stressed out that day, too — even moreso after Wakeen bailed — and I’m sure they would have liked to go home “sick” to get out of it. It’s a good thing they are more honest than Wakeen and showed up anyway. (BTW, this is a shift work job with work that must be done every day, so when Wakeen left Tuesday and called in sick Wednesday, Carrie and Mike and the nightshift teapot maker had to absorb the extra work. It’s not the kind of job where Wakeen will still have to do the work when he gets back.)
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 2:59 pm Unless the manager has been working on things right along there is not enough here in one instance to do much of anything. The manager could chat about, “Gee, we really needed you this week.” Personally, I would have picked up on the assumption that the other two should have done his work for him and he yelled at them? That’s a huge no-no. I think that all the boss can do is look at productivity levels. And quietly keep track what happens the next time a person is on vacation. I do know that one place I worked we had all worked there a while. It was a small crew, let’s say there were 5 of us plus Boss. So six people. On average each person had 4 weeks vacation each year. That meant that 24 weeks out of the year we were down a person, yep, almost half a year. So the boss may have a two part problem. There may not be enough coverage to begin with and people are accruing more and more vacation time. This will force the boss’ hand. She will have to deal with it at some point.
JediSquirrel* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 pm “spending all afternoon on Facebook as he normally does” Do you—or more importantly, does management—have a record of this? (i.e., internet access logs?). Because if this is how he spends his afternoons, this is a pattern of behavior that needs to be addressed before anything else. What is goal/quota for teapots/day? Is he meeting that metric? If not, why not? What steps have been taken with regard to that? These problems with Wakeen seem to have started long before last week.
Susan K* January 19, 2019 at 12:09 am Oh yeah, they have a record of his internet access. Management regularly gets internet access logs of everyone in the department, including what sites are visited, time spent on each site including time the window is active vs. in the background, and number of clicks on each site (I guess they consider this less private than productivity stats?). They mentioned that someone (they didn’t name names but we’re all fairly sure it’s Wakeen) spends more than 50% of his hours on the clock surfing the web on non-work-related sites, but they say they can’t take away his internet access because then they’d have to take everyone’s internet access and sometimes we have work-related reasons to use the internet. There are goals and quotas for each day, but not really for individual teapot makers — just for the department — so if Jane makes extra teapots to compensate for the ones Wakeen blows off, management doesn’t care because all the teapots we need are getting made. It is very true that the problems with Wakeen go much deeper than this one incident. Wakeen has received poor performance reviews, so management is well aware that he is a problem employee, and they claim they are doing something about it but they can’t say what because it’s private. I was interested in thoughts on this particular incident because I think there are some gray areas. In most cases, the general consensus is that the employer should not question the employee’s use of sick leave, but what about a case where there is good reason to believe that the employee is using sick leave fraudulently? And I think what he did was worse than just faking sick because he didn’t feel like going to work that day; it appears that he deliberately picked the time he was needed the most, and when his absence would cause the most harm, to fake sick. If the manager were to do something, what should he have done? Make Wakeen report to the company doctor for evaluation prior to going home? Make Wakeen provide a doctor’s note? Question him about whether he was really sick? What should the consequences be if Wakeen were caught faking sick? Where I work, general poor performance is usually tolerated but dishonesty can get you fired.
Ann O.* January 19, 2019 at 4:23 am It’s really hard to answer your questions because it seems clear that the real issue is Wakeen needs to be fired and replaced. Everything else is a bandaid. But we don’t have access to the information that would let us know how feasible this is. Wakeen may do just enough for management to feel the situation is preferable to going through a hiring process. In that case, I’m not sure why they’d want to investigate the faking sick issue because what difference does it really make? They have zero reason to believe they can count on Wakeen and every reason to know they can’t. My question is really what keeps the other team members from becoming less productive. If I were in their shoes, I think I would start sinking closer to the lowest common denominator.
Coder von Frankenstein* January 19, 2019 at 2:53 pm Second-guessing people’s sick leave is just a bad idea, period. I am trying to come up with an exception and failing. Wakeen’s case is not an exception. I get that you’re mad at the guy, with reason, and management is being slower than you’d like about dealing with him. That doesn’t change anything, though. Accusing people of faking sick leave is a fast ticket to Bad Boss Town (or, for non-bosses, Problem Co-worker Village).
Applesauced* January 18, 2019 at 11:07 am Question about internal application/long distance job hunting: I’m applying to a position within my company but in a different office halfway across the country. I am highlighting my work at my Office A, referencing my interest in the work Office B focuses on, my interest in City B, and signing off with something like “I’m happy to speak more, X is the best way to contact me” Should I mention an in-person meeting? If so, how should I phrase that? “I’m happy to come to City B and meet in person if you prefer” sounds like I’ll foot the bill (which I CAN do, but don’t WANT to), but would that be the case for an internal applicant? Also – has anyone had luck negotiating a relocation package for transfer that you initiated? (I can’t think a way to phrase that doesn’t scream “I’d like to move to city B and want YOU to pay for it”)
NowWhat??* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am If you’re looking to relocate to that city anyways, I would mention it in the cover letter! “I’ve always wanted to live in City B due to culture/closer to family/etc.” I don’t think you need to mention an in-person meeting in the cover letter; most of the time that’s a given that it will eventually happen. As for relocation… I have not run into this myself but I feel like relocation packages are only offered when you’re specifically recruited to the position, your company transfers you (and it wasn’t your idea) or you are far and beyond a top candidate. That being said, you may be able to ask for a non-monetary compensation package, such as a start date further out or the ability to take time off in the beginning to get your new home set up.
Dreamer* January 18, 2019 at 3:38 pm In my old company, relocation is included in any company relocation so it wouldn’t hurt to ask.
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm Depends. I got relocation money when I got a term-limited academic job, while my spouse got nothing for a tenure-track job. Nearby institutions (private institution with astonishingly deep pockets vs. public university). We moved both of us on my relo money.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:22 pm I worked for a global marketing firm that was, let’s say, stingy about relocation…However, when one woman applied for a job in London (moving from NYC), they covered her interview travel and relocation because it was an open position and a team on that side of the pond wanted her to join them. If it’s an actual open position (versus you asking for a transfer so you can do your current job, just somewhere else), then mention that you’re happy to meet in person. If they want to interview you, just ask about booking travel like it’s natural for them to cover the cost. “I look forward to the interview. Should I work with someone on your end to book the travel or how should I code it in my expense report?” As for relocation, it depends on the job. If they would offer it to an external candidate, then absolutely you can and should request. Use a script similar to above after you get the offer.
NowWhat??* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am Thanks to a lot of advice from Alison and the rest of this community, I have recently scored a promotion and a transfer to a new team in my office! I’m being moved to a different part of my floor and my cubicle will be double in size and next to a window, which has inspired me to really decorate it (so many people are in my current cubicle daily due to the nature of my work and the desk location, that I haven’t really personalized it over the years). Besides photos, plants, and some sassy new mugs, what do you all recommend as some of your favorite personal items to have at your desk?
TeapotDetective* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Congrats on the promotion!! My current desk is about 80% functional and 20% personal, but my pen collection is probably my favorite part – a nice fountain pen, one that was a gift from a friend, one with a lyric from my favorite song engraved on the barrel, and one cute one shaped like a cactus that I got in Secret Santa. All of them make me smile a bit when I use them, and it’s a fun conversation starter if someone notices that they’re not just ‘normal’ pens. One of my coworkers has a nifty little silver kinetic sculpture that’s about a foot high. It’s not distracting and doesn’t make any noise, but it’s such a cool touch.
No Tribble At All* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am Congrats on the promotion! I have coasters, so I stop spilling tea all over my desk, and framed pictures of my cats (substitute your favorite pet / human).
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am Congrats on your promotion!! I got a big corkboard to promote materials to students and I’ve been using enamel pins to pin everything to it-there’s tons on Amazon. You could get some that reflect your favorite movies/books/food/anything and use that to pin up postcards/photos. I have a couple FunkoPops on my bookshelf and I occasionally switch them out. On my wall I have a NatGeo calendar featuring somewhere I want to go (this year is England).
Notthemomma* January 18, 2019 at 11:49 am Fabric to cover some of the standard cube fabric- just turn bac and use straight pins, no need to sew. It brightens and pulls some of your personality into the space, but is not permenant and is easily changed if you tire of it.
Alfonzo Mango* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm Target and craft stores have a lot of cute garlands, hang those up! And perhaps get a small lamp, they’re so cozy.
Coffee Owlccountant* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm I have collected a few office-y desk tchotckes that I love. One is a small metal statue of a worker seated at a computer made from recycled trash that I bought from an artisan in West Africa – his face is a large bolt, his body is a blown fuse, his little computer is on a desk made partially from a broken hinge. His name is Etienne and he is an awesome conversation piece. I also have a wicked sword shaped letter opener that slides into a dragon holder. Look for things like that – people love talking about them when they are in your office and they will bring you joy at work.
Lupin Lady* January 18, 2019 at 3:11 pm Nice, weighted post-it dispensers (with fun coloured post-its) and pretty calendars bring me joy. I highly recommend ‘splurging’ on them.
Juneybug* January 18, 2019 at 4:23 pm Congs on your promotion!! I have the following office decor in shades of gold, tan, or rose gold (it looks great with the tan cubicle fabric and blond wood desktop in my cubicle): – Motivation art (You can also get some great stuff from Hobby Lobby or Target). – Pencil cups (one for regular work stuff, the other is for colored pencils and markers). – Mini desk fan (helps so much with hot flashes and stuffy air). – Drink coasters (one for tea, one for water). – Travel mug and water bottle (both are dedicated for the office. My water bottle has gold dots on it.). – Fairy lights around the cubicle walls (you would be surprised on how many folks love them! I just draped them over the cubicle walls. They are battery powered). – Salt lamp (not for the supposed healing powers but I love the glow it gives). – File holder (mine is shiny rose gold). – File folders (there are great ones out there with cute messages. My favorite says I am very busy.). – Push pins (found some in rose gold). – Washi tape (found some in gold. I use them for my Kanban board and hanging up stuff). – Picture frames of pets and family members (my frames are in various shades of brown and gold). – Memo holder spike (found it in gold and use it for storing post its when I have completed a task on my Kanban board). – Plant in a nice container (gold of course). – Pillow (the rose gold polka dots adds color to my spare/guest chair). – Phone charger (dedicated for the office). – Framed diploma (hey, I worked hard for my Master’s degree!). – Box for mementos (mine is wood painted gold. I use it for smaller awards, like coins, that I don’t necessary want to frame or thank you cards that I have received). I am now looking for a fabric chair cover to cover my drab gray desk chair and a tray to hold water and snacks for guests. While some folks might think my office is feminine (it is), I am not worried about it for 2 reasons – 1. I am retired military so I have already proven how tough I am, and 2. I tried to find items that were elegant, not cutesy (no animals or cartoons). I think having everything matching helps from it looking too cluttered. My suggestion is pick a color (or two or three) that makes you happy. Look for decor that would work in your color scheme from retail, yard sales, or thrift stores. And enjoy your work space!
Temporarily Anonymous* January 18, 2019 at 6:30 pm I have a big chunk of blue calcite crystal on my desk that helps me feel more grounded to the natural world (it’s about the size of a mango). It doubles as a paperweight when needed.
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 8:59 pm Yes! Awesome. I’ve got an oval labradorite hanging out on my desk within my usual eyeline.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 8:16 pm Some co-workers & I got removable wall sticker “windows “…but you have a window now you lucky human! I also have a piece of real art … well okay a photocopy, because I’m not risking the original… a bit of calligraphy I commissioned from a friend years ago. It’s beautiful. ..and if you take the time to read it, it makes you laugh.
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 8:57 pm Congratulations! I’ve always liked to have a whiteboard in my cube, if you have room to prop one up or attach it, and invite people to doodle on it. As you have a window (hang on to that space!), you can draw on it with dry erase markers. It’ll come off! Put up an inspirational message or a fun drawing, or something seasonal.
Indigo a la Mode* January 20, 2019 at 1:34 pm I have my running medals, 12th Man flag, sticky notes covered in snippets of poetry and inspirational sayings, stickers, a small library of marketing and design books, a rock I like to rub while thinking, a painting that says “FOCUS DARLING” in gold foil, a little cardboard dog that I cut out of an Amazon box, various work deliverables that I’m particularly proud of, a paper walrus I drew that we’ve made lots of sticky-note clothes for so passersby can dress him up, and my old Kansas vanity plate that reads “FALAFEL.” So, go nuts! :D
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:08 am All right, fellow academic librarians out there (and others, but academics are so weird) I’m trying to decide how I feel about this. I was interviewed by phone for a position and they asked if they could contact my references before the in-person interviews were scheduled. (As with most academic jobs, they will fly me out to do a day long interview) I said I would be more comfortable if they didn’t contact my current supervisor until after the in person interview if I was a finalist. I was told it was the Dean of the Libraries policy to always speak to the Direct Supervisor (I’ve heard of this before, but never experienced) and this had to happen before the in-person. I thought this was weird, but I have a very supportive boss who knows I’m looking. So, I asked if they would just let me know before they contacted her, so I could give her a heads up. They let me know, I gave her a heads up. Everything seems fine. Here’s my question: It seems really not okay to put someone’s job on the line potentially by insisting they speak to the direct supervisor before they have made any investment (aka flied someone out) to the in-person. Am I over reacting? Is this a bigger red flag than I think? Orange flag? Just one of those things that’s more common in academics I think?
GigglyPuff* January 18, 2019 at 11:15 am Fellow librarian, currently in government, but been applying to academic for two years now. Completely happened to me a few months ago. Contacted my references before my second interview, luckily all mine are super supportive and I gave them a heads-up, but I also felt really bad because the last people wanted reference letters when they contacted my references, so they had just done those too. So it seems uncommon, but could happen. Oh and to add to mine, they never contacted me again after my final interview, end of October. I emailed around Thanksgiving and they said they’d let me know when they picked someone. Crickets. Fourth time I’ve never heard back when I was a finalist. The entire process sucks. So annoying yellow flag?
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am Oh, yeah, academic hiring = longest time lines ever and a totally insane system. I wish I knew some “trick” to deal with it, but I don’t.
Doodle* January 18, 2019 at 4:03 pm There is no trick. It’s just endless and painful and frustrating for both job seekers and the departments that desperately want and need to hire someone. Sisyphean.
An Archivist* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am My current institution contacted my references before the in-person interview, and I was caught entirely by surprise. Given that one of my references gave birth a week before the request, it was really awkward! I now make sure that they notify people they’ll be doing that, since it’s not the standard operating procedure. It wasn’t a red flag–they just needed to get the letters in before they could make the offer, so they do it to expedite the process on their end.
Bye Academia* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am I hear you, that’s really annoying. This is one of those things that academia does as a standard measure even though it is not good practice because…tradition? It’s not a red or orange flag for the specific job or institution, IMO, since it’s so common. I’m not surprised they wouldn’t wait, because often academic searches require strict adherence to an order of events to make sure all candidates go through the same process. I actually would say it’s a green flag that they gave you a heads up so you could talk to your supervisor first. They didn’t have to do that, and I’ve seen more rigid processes that wouldn’t allow that kind of back and forth. Source: Despite my username, I work at a university in a support role. I had to send in letters of recommendation from my supervisor and one other reference once I was selected for the phone screen short list, way before I even know if I was getting an on campus visit.
Blue* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am I work in academia, but not in libraries. In general, I think something like this is quite problematic. I don’t think it’s necessarily a red flag about the organization – more likely that they just don’t know good hiring practices – but I would definitely be keeping a careful eye out for other concerning things. And if you do end up getting and taking the job, maybe you can convince them to change this practice moving forward.
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm Academic librarian, have done a lot of hiring, and I’ve never done that and furthermore, would be uncomfortable not protecting someone’s privacy in this way. In fact, I think when we advertise positions, we actually say something like “in confidence” just to make sure that people feel safe applying. Additionally, I’d rather just wait to contact references until I only have a few finalists. Why take the time to do that for candidates I’m not sure about? I want to make applying and interviewing as painless as possible, and also easy on myself.
Beatrix* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm This seems to be an increasingly common thing in academia. I applied for a mid-level position a few months ago, and they asked for my refs after the HR screening interview, but before we’d done a proper phone interview. The interview didn’t go well, so I was pretty annoyed that I’d told my bosses for nothing. Really obnoxiously, they contacted my refs anyway to ask to set up a time to talk… and never followed up. Poor form all around.
Not a Badmin anymore* January 18, 2019 at 1:26 pm The academic library (support role) I worked for did this, and then we got a new director and the hiring process changed 100%. In my case it was the policy of someone who had been there a very long time.
Anonymeece* January 18, 2019 at 2:17 pm Have an MLS, work in an academic librarian but not directly as a librarian (still interviewing!): That’s unfortunately common from the interviews I’ve had so far. Thankfully my boss is pretty understanding, too, so it’s no biggie, but I think you’ll be seeing this more as you go forward. I was sort of taken aback when my references were called after the first interview, before I was informed I was a finalist. Academic institutions in general are strict about hiring processes (which are byzantine and take forever, as others have noted). They’re not flexible at all from “how we do things”. That’s been my experience, at least. I wouldn’t take it as a red flag necessarily about the department, but it does say something about the institution and how rigid they are about processes.
Also an Archivist* January 18, 2019 at 4:14 pm I think it’s a terrible practice but I don’t think it’s a red flag. It seems to be a thing in academia. I posted here a few months ago about how in the interview for my current job, they wanted to speak to my direct supervisor before making me an offer. I successfully pushed back and got them to agree to make an offer first and make it contingent on getting a reference from my supervisor (the offer letter just said “reference,” didn’t even require a good reference). For me, what was important was that they responded seriously to my concerns and worked with me, even though they seemed completely taken aback by my objection to the practice (really??). This was after the in-person interview, so not as egregious as your situation, but I was really surprised how normal they seemed to think the practice was. I got the impression that the only objections they’d had before were from candidates who were concerned that their manager would give them a bad reference, which wasn’t my concern at all. I just don’t want my boss to think I’m out the door before I’m actually sure I’m out the door!
Yet Another Academic Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 4:21 pm I’m in an academic library at a 2-year school, and our campus-wide policy is that we don’t do reference checks until we are ready to make an offer. It really doesn’t seem fair to me to insist on reference checks early in the process, but I also don’t think it’s necessarily a red flag. Making changes to hiring processes can be really difficult in academia, and at some institutions that only happens with personnel changes at the policy-making level (i.e. administration).
Katerina* January 18, 2019 at 9:29 pm Wow. I’ve worked at and been on search committees at 3 different academic libraries and in every one, we checked references after the phone interviews and before inviting them for on-campus. I had no idea that was considered unusual!
Dr. Anonymous* January 19, 2019 at 12:00 am I served on multiple search committees at an academic library at a state univeristy in the Midwest, and we checked references before the offer. Hard to tell if it’s creepy library or an immovable creepy mandatory university or state recruitment process that doesn’t say much about the work environment in the library day-to-day. Good luck!
New ED* January 18, 2019 at 11:09 am Do people see it as a red flag of a hiring process moves too quickly? For a variety of reasons we’ve had difficulty filing a particular position and reopened the applications. Now we are contacting candidates and scheduling interviews on a rolling basis within a few days of receiving applications. It’s an entry level position and we are a small NGO so no HR screen, just an immediate first round interview. So we may email someone two days after they applied and request them to come in for an interview the following week. Would this worry you if you were the candidate?
It's a Friday Thing* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am For that position, probably not. The position I’m in now rolled quickly (and I’ve been in non-profit for 20-yrs in all senior roles that required a longer hiring process) because it’s a low level job (I’m caring for my parents and require a less rigorous position). Hiring should reflect the job responsibility – the more senior the longer it takes. The more time it takes, the more it costs you, too. Sure a bad hire costs money, but if the requirements aren’t complicated and you’re getting quality candidates, make it happen. The longer you take, the possibility of losing out on a candidate increases. Happy Hiring
Fabulous* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am I’ve had two quick hiring processes and didn’t think of either as a red flag at the time, but looking back I maybe should have. First one was for an assistant to an insurance adviser. I was called for an interview just hours after I submitted my application, and was officially hired about a week later. Turns out the guy was a notorious micromanager in his field and had an awful turnover rate for assistants; working for him 2-years was considered long-term. I think I made it 1 year 10 months. Second one wasn’t nearly as bad, it was a temp role, but they hired me during the interview. But really, I think it all depends on the candidate whether they choose to see it as a red flag, as well as if you as the hiring manager present yourself well and can reassure the candidates that it’s a great place to work. If you’re hiring for a more entry-level role, I probably wouldn’t worry about it.
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am No. It might surprise me, but it wouldn’t be a flag. My current job contacted me a week after I applied for a phone screen. And in Higher Ed that’s like being called the next day in normal fields.
wingmaster* January 18, 2019 at 11:23 am This wouldn’t be a concern for me, especially since you mentioned you are a small org with no HR. In my personal experience with small companies, I usually get contacted by the direct manager for an interview within 2-5 days.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am Not at all. If I got an email minutes/hours after applying, I’d think that was a little sketchy, but two days is totally fine.
8DaysAWeek* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am No. I think this is great. We’ve done this in my company for a few reasons: 1) a key player on the team leaves the company 2) a key player on the team has to take unexpected medical leave or 3) we need more resources ASAP.
Namast'ay in Bed* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Oh definitely not, I’d honestly feel pretty good since at least to me, quickly asked to interview = I must be pretty good. Assuming the full interview process itself doesn’t feel rushed or haphazard, a quick timeline between application and interview isn’t a big deal.
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am Two days after I’ve applied seems efficient! Two minutes sets off alarm bells, but certainly not two days. IME, some places do phone screenings, some places do not. I’ve never read anything into that.
New ED* January 18, 2019 at 2:51 pm Definitely at least a day after applying as we need at least two different people in the organization to review resume and other application materials
Not at all!* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am Not at all. I would think “wow this company is on their A game! I hope everything else runs just as efficiently.” I love when companies get back to candidates right away.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am No. If anything, in this hiring market, you can’t afford to keep good candidates waiting.
DAMitsDevon* January 18, 2019 at 12:12 pm I wouldn’t see scheduling a first interview a few days after a candidate sent in their application as a red flag, though I would expect that it would be treated as an initial screen, like if HR were doing it over the phone. I would see it as a red flag if I got a job offer after only one interview though, but I’m assuming you’d have one or two more rounds? If nothing else, you’d want to give the candidate more than one opportunity to assess your organization in person.
New ED* January 18, 2019 at 2:50 pm It varies with the position. For anything above entry level we do at minimum two rounds, possible more. For entry level positions I would say about half the time we do two rounds before making an offer and half the time we find one is enough. However, when we have made an offer after one interview at offer the person the opportunity to come in for a meeting or schedule a phone call to discuss the position if they have further questions.
BlueWolf* January 18, 2019 at 12:23 pm For my current job, they literally called me 30 minutes after I submitted my application to set up a phone interview. Had the phone interview the next day, in-person interview two days after that, and an offer within a week of my application. So if you’ve been having difficulty filling the position and you find candidates that look promising, there’s no reason to delay for appearances’ sake. I’m sure most applicants will be happy that the process is moving quickly because that is less time to stress while waiting around for a response.
Qwerty* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm Moving fast on an interview process is great! The only problem I see is that you’re going straight to an in-person interview without having even a short phone call. The candidate has to take time off work to come in for the interview, so the phone screen stage is as much for their benefit as the company’s, just to make sure everyone is on the same page about the role and so that you don’t wasting a candidate’s time. For my small company the manager just does a 5-10min phone call that’s mostly a quick overview of the candidates resume, description of the role/company, and any questions that might pop on either side.
New ED* January 18, 2019 at 2:47 pm Thanks, we do have a phone call exactly like you describe for more senior positions and use that to gage mutual interest before scheduling an in person interview. This is an entry level position so a lot of what we are looking for is demeanor, professionalism, etc. that can be better assessed in person. If the person is based outside the area or otherwise requests it we do a Skype interview first before asking them to come into the office.
Ama* January 18, 2019 at 1:03 pm For the employer I’m with right now, I sent my resume in on Thursday night, had a phone interview Friday morning, an in person interview the next Monday and an offer in hand by that Wednesday. Part of it was a timing thing — I was upfront at the in person interview that I had to give four weeks notice to get my vacation payout (which was considerable), and they needed someone for a big program they had in six weeks, and also I was told later that they kind of couldn’t believe someone with my experience was available in their salary range, so they wanted to make sure I didn’t take another offer elsewhere. I maybe thought a tiny bit about whether it was a bad sign (especially after I learned that the previous person in my job left after eight months), but I’ve been here nearly six years now and it is by far the most functional workplace I’ve ever had.
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 3:00 pm For an entry-level position, probably not. I’ve applied to jobs and gotten emailed in an hour. Two days is nothing, and scheduling an interview for the following week sounds pretty normal, especially for a small org. It bothers me more if I see the position reposted a ton of times. It makes me wonder if the company sucks and they can’t keep people around so they’re always collecting resumes. Also, if they called and wanted me to come in THAT DAY, I would say hell no.
Dr. Vanessa Poseidon* January 18, 2019 at 5:31 pm On its own, no, this wouldn’t worry me. But I would be looking at the rest of your hiring process more critically to get a sense of whether you were thoroughly vetting candidates or were just desperately trying to fill the position as soon as possible. So if the interview was thoughtful and really probed for a good fit, you checked references, and collected work samples or had some kind of assessment related to the work of the position, then I wouldn’t think anything of the short timeline. If you didn’t do any of that and just gave the candidate a cursory interview and moved forward very quickly…well, that would give me pause.
New ED* January 19, 2019 at 9:31 am This is helpful. We definitely review writing samples, call references, and do a thorough interview, or even a second interview in some cases.
Eccentric Smurf* January 18, 2019 at 10:32 pm That wouldn’t bother me at all. I’d probably be thrilled.
Anon anony* January 18, 2019 at 11:10 am When people leave my company, it’s very hush hush. One woman is leaving and I heard it through another coworker. There is no formal announcement made. Other places that I’ve worked at would at least send out an email. Is this unusual?
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I was talking with my CFO about this the other day! We’re a start up, so we’re still building the culture. She’s concerned about announcements because you have to be consistent. So if someone leaves to start their own job and everyone loved them, and you make a public declaration of well-wishes and what not, that becomes an issue when you fire someone else and very tersely say “joe no longer works here.” That had never occurred to me! We’re trying to encourage people to make their own announcement when they are leaving, so things aren’t hush-hush but we don’t have the consistency issue.
NowWhat??* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Agree with this! Most people in our office make their own announcement or let it go through the grapevine. If it’s an amicable parting, a few days before their last day our office manager sends out an email announcing the departure and a drop in snack time for people to give their best wishes. It’s rare that someone is let go, but when that has happened they still have made their own announcement but there was no snack time.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 12:48 pm I think it’s reasonable to have levels of consistency… if someone is working notice period, make announcement and have cake or something on last day, and if they leave immediately (by choice on either side) send a nice “unfortunately Joe is leaving to pursue other opportunities and we wish him all the best” email. Consistency doesn’t mean treat 2 different situations the same :)
angrywithnumbers* January 18, 2019 at 3:02 pm We had to institute a policy after one employee angrily quit on a Friday the office was mostly empty. He was in the lobby early the next Monday and someone let him in because they didn’t know he had quit. He was only there to get his stuff from his desk but it could have turned into bad situation. Now we get a generic email about pursing other opportunities when ever someone leaves.
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 9:40 pm We’ve been experiencing high turnover over the last few years at my job both by people leaving, either amicably or not. It is the case that you can usually tell by the tone of the email what kind of circumstances surrounding their departure. We have lots of “It is with mixed feelings that I announce that Jane will be moving on from Teapots Inc. to pursue an opportunity at Coffeepots and More. Jane has contributed in X Y and Z ways after joining the company in 2005,” etc. etc. etc. but then also some “I’m writing to let all of you know that Jane has left Teapots Inc.” and then we all know that there was some bad blood, either a firing or an angry quitting situation. Usually even those emails say something nice about the person, though. Even if it is a lie.
Not Maeby But Surely* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am Not unusual for my company, but the level of communication about a departure depends on the type of departure. Leave for a competitor? We find out after they’ve been escorted off the premises. Retire? Usually know in advance, often have a retirement party for them, etc.
Miss M* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm Yeah, I just found out recently that someone was murkily let go/they quit due to illness and not showing up enough to work and no one knew! But everyone who moves on for things like retirement, going back to school, moving internally, get a formal announcement and goodbye party. Maybe not so much for the negatively perceived leavings.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm It’s very uncommon for company’s to send out an email when someone leaves – at least in all the places I’ve worked. Ideally, their manager will at least send an email to the direct team and peers that work with the person. That’s the process I’ve implemented at other places. Unless it’s a small company, it would strike me as odd to get an email everyone someone leaves the company.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm We have an online bulletin board where all departures are posted – usually with future leaving date, but either way everyone is informed.
Construction Safety* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm Not much communication here, on several levels. Six ‘major’ departures, only one email.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm We have a longer than average notice period, and our norm is everyone knows, a card does the rounds and people chip in for a gift, on leaving day everyone who’s able gets together to hear their manager say how great they are and wish them all the best and leaving person to say thanks and goodbyes, usually followed by a bunch of people going to pub for goodbye drinks. So for me… no!
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 12:50 pm If notice period isn’t worked for whatever reason, you get told as soon as possible and generally with a bland polite notice.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 1:29 pm My company does this ass backwards. If someone resigns, it’s a big secret that you only hear about through the grapevine and/or a final farewell email from the person leaving (“Hey it’s been fun, keep in touch, here’s my email”) and the linked in requests. If someone gets fired there’s usually a very serious toned email from the manager. “Fergus is no longer with the company. Please contact Florance for anything that you may have been working on with Fergus. Please contact me with any questions or concerns” In other words, you know without a doubt who got fired and who resigned by the communication.
home sweet home* January 18, 2019 at 2:35 pm This is exactly how one of my former companies did it. If they left said company, usually a “farewell” email by that person or their manager or you heard it through the rumor mill. If it was termination, you had the generic “so and so no longer works here, we wish him/her the best in future endeavors”.
Nines* January 18, 2019 at 1:45 pm I’m surprised at the number of people that have this experience! At the job I just left No One ever said anything about people leaving and it was a mess! They transferred the clinic manager and I had physicians asking me where she was a week later. Why don’t people communicate these things?!? It drove me nuts. But apparently it’s more common than I realized. I definitely thought this was an obnoxious issue within that specific company.
NACSACJACK* January 18, 2019 at 3:50 pm It varies even within a company. Our former dept head never let it be known anyone left whether it was a transfer out or resignation. We’d find out via the grapevine or when we contacted the person themselves if they were still with the company. Also, promotions are not announced either, but since we were required to have our job titles on our signatures, we’d find out that way.
Zephy* January 19, 2019 at 3:59 pm At OldJob, HR would usually send out a mass email saying “Please be advised that Jane Doe no longer works for Company. She is allowed on the premises and should be treated like a member of the public.” That got the point across without making it obvious that Jane quit or got fired or resigned or what have you. Only once in my just-shy-of-4 years working there did I see an email that said “Fergus Jones no longer works for Company. He is *not* permitted on the premises; please notify Bossman or HRLady.” There were rumors about what Fergus did to get himself banned from the place and the circumstances under which he left, but the rumor mill spins its tales regardless of what the company does.
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am Question for the group: I manage a large team (25, all direct reports, all remote) and since it’s such a large team we’re playing with the format for meetings. My boss and I decided we would have small team calls each week, and also 1-on-1s only with the folks who we think need the extra support. How do I roll out this plan, without the 1-on-1 folks feeling like they’re bad at their jobs? There are some performance issues (those folks have been alerted), but many of the others are perhaps not the top performers and would benefit from more focused direction. I don’t want anyone to feel like they’re failing (and then have low confidence, not enjoy the work, not perform well because of a self-fulfilling prophecy, etc.), when really it’s more my read on how to best support them. Anyway, tl;dr how to you roll out 1-on-1s with only half of your (very large) team, without making them feel like they’re wearing a big scarlet letter/dunce cap.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Are you sure those with performance issues wouldn’t welcome the 1 on 1s? You are assuming they will see it as a negative.
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am Sorry, I wasn’t clear. There are a variety of reasons we’ve selected the 1-on-1 group: -those with performance issues (in which case I’ve discussed with the employee that there are performance issues), -people who are relatively new to the industry/company, -folks who aren’t having performance issues but we know struggle with a certain skill and want to provide extra guidance, -and folks who may slip into performance issues so we want to have 1-on-1s to help keep them above that line. I don’t want people in the last three buckets to assume that they’re included in the 1-on-1 group because I think they’re doing a bad job; I don’t think that’s helpful for anyone. But I don’t know how to address it because, of course, some of the folks in the 1-on-1 group *are* underperforming, and there are others who we’ve deemed don’t need the 1-on-1s at all. (And due to bandwidth, I simply can’t do 25 1-on-1 calls.)
Marthooh* January 18, 2019 at 1:02 pm “I’ll schedule 1-on-1 meetings as needed.” You don’t have to specify what the need might be. If you don’t mention the buckets, people won’t be trying to figure out which bucket they’re in.
Qwerty* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm Since everyone is remote, maybe don’t make an announcement about the 1-on-1’s or just say that you’ll meet with people based on the needs of their projects? For the people who are getting them, tell them individually along with the reason, since that it would be a different type of conversation for each bucket. (ie: “let’s check in every week until you get settled in your new job” sounds very different from “let’s meet every week to work on your performance issues”) Its understandable that 25 1-on-1 calls would take up too much time, but I’d suggest considering varying the frequency of the meetings so that everyone is getting something. So maybe the low performers get meetings every week, the skill-guidance and at-risk-performers get every two weeks, the rest get once every 4-6 (spaced out so you only have to talk to one or two of them a week) and the new hires start at weekly but phase out to whichever bucket they fall into
SignalLost* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am And, conversely, are you sure that the top performers wouldn’t want 1-on-1s? I mean, if that were me, I wouldn’t personally be able to see it as “you’re doing great and we don’t need to talk”, I’d anxious myself right into “about to be fired” if I saw others havin those meetings. Plus, in a remote environment, I’d think check-ins are more important – how will your non-scheduled reports develop in the company if you’re leaving them out of 1-on-1s?
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am Ideally I would have 1-on-1s with everyone! But I’m only one person, with a 25 person team, and last 6 months I started to get really burnt out because I was trying to be everything for everyone. And I got so in the weeds, that I think I dropped the ball on helping my team stay focused on the big picture. So my boss and I are trying to think strategically about how to support everyone, without spreading me too thin. I like the suggestion below of having 1-on-1s monthly for the folks on the top half of the pile.
NACSACJACK* January 18, 2019 at 3:53 pm This. You should schedule 1-1s with everyone so those whose performances you want to manage up dont feel like they are being punished. I would dread every 1-1 knowing my boss thought I wasn’t meeting expectations. Everyone thinks they are doing their best, but what they think and what your expectation for best/top performer, might not agree.
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am I have a large team as well; I hold monthly 1:1s with everyone, and those who need extra support get weekly or 2x a month 1:1s. When I changed the format I didn’t specify what the new 1:1 schedule was exactly, I just announced in our team meeting that due to the increased number of people on the team I was going to have to change the 1:1 schedule, but if anyone wanted more frequent or additional 1:1 time I was available, they just needed to let me know. By leaving out what the new format it didn’t single out anyone.
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:44 am Ah, I like this! I was not planning on holding 1-on-1s with about half the team, but perhaps the answer is to do them once a month, so then it’s not an all-or-nothing approach.
Elizabeth Proctor* January 18, 2019 at 12:06 pm You really should have some kind of regularly scheduled 1:1s with everyone you manage.
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 1:23 pm Yes! Keep your 1:1 at least once a month, it is something I push manager’s to do when I am teaching management training. It is really important to have that one on one time with your staff.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 3:12 pm You may not have anything in particular to say with the other half but THEY might want to talk to you. Really, you have to talk to all of them on a fairly regular basis. Because if you don’t then “a call from the boss” will become a euphemism your team will use for being reprimanded. “Oh, did you hear? Sally got a call from the boss this week!” And you can make these calls work for you in many ways. For example, Sally is having difficulty because she has trouble with X. So without naming names, you are on a call with Jane. You ask Jane, “Do you have trouble with X?” Jane says “No and here’s why!” Or Jane says, “Yes, I was going to mention that, too.” Either way you are more informed than when you started the call.
Ms. Meow* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am Could you roll out 1-on-1s for everyone but at different frequencies? High performers meet once a month for 30 minutes while lower performers meet weekly or every other week for 30-60 minutes? That way no one feels neglected and everyone gets the attention they need.
Blue* January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm Could you tell them you’ll need to revise the 1 on 1 schedule and say something like, “We’ll be prioritizing 1-on-1s for those who might benefit from additional support for various reasons, including being new to the company or adding a new component to their portfolio. I’ll be in touch with those individuals, but keep in mind that anyone can request 1-on-1 time when needed.”
Ali G* January 18, 2019 at 12:11 pm I would keep it high level: “We will be scheduling regular smaller team meetings each week, and then 1-on-1 meetings as needed depending on priorities and workload.” Some people’s “as-needed” will be more than others, and that’s OK.
Need a Beach* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am Question for people with payroll experience. When going through my year-end paperwork, I noticed that my last pay stub of the year had a total that was about $97 short of my total salary. I’m having trouble figuring out why. I get paid semi-monthly (24 pay periods per year) so it isn’t a matter of the weeks/days not lining up exactly. The period end date is definitely 12/31/18, as it usually is. The number I’m looking at is the total “year to date” earnings at the top left of a standard ADP earnings statement, so it’s not a matter of the deductions having changed. The number is pre-deduction. I’m sure there’s a simple answer, so I wanted to check with the commentariat before asking my payroll department what might be a stupid question.
JeanB in NC* January 18, 2019 at 11:36 am I would ask Payroll right away – if they have to redo the end of year reports because of a mistake, there’s usually a cost involved. I can’t think of anything off the top of my head that would reduce your gross salary.
Madge* January 18, 2019 at 12:44 pm Yes, you want the total to match what you’ve been paid in the year. That may not exactly match your official annual salary…and that’s worth addressing at some point. But your tax documents need to show what you’ve been paid.
Need a Beach* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Yes, if I divide my salary by 24, the number I received on each check matches that to the penny. So, say I make $48,000 a year. Each check’s gross amount is correct at $2,000. But the final year-to-date sum is short by about $97 and I can’t figure out why. I have not yet received my W-2 for 2018, though, so maybe I should wait to see what that says?
Madge* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm I’d say ask now, before the w-2 is issued and save them the trouble of having to correct it.
Madge* January 18, 2019 at 5:08 pm Master Bean Counter is right. If you received a raise that went into effect sometime between December 16th, 2017 and December 15th, 2018, then you’d be paid less than $48,000 as in your example. If you’ve been at the same salary for more than a year, then there could be a mistake and the sooner you point it out, the better.
Master Bean Counter* January 18, 2019 at 1:13 pm The issue is when you receive the money. Your w-2 would reflect 23 pay periods for 2018 plus the last pay period for 2017 because you would have received the checks for those periods in 2018. Your last check for 2018 was most likely received in the first week of 2019–correct?
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 11:11 am My partner has an out-of-town interview next week (his first ever, and his first-ever corporate-ish interview), and I (well, we) have an attire question! When I’ve done out-of-town interviews, it’s usually a one-day thing and I only need one outfit. For his, the itinerary is a little different; he’ll arrive in the early evening and go to dinner with one of the company’s partners (who has already interviewed him in person), then the following day is the in-office formal interview. He’ll wear a suit to the all-day thing. I am thinking he should wear dress pants, a button-down shirt and a nice sweater on his flight (and, therefore, at dinner– I don’t think he’ll have time to change). Definitely no jeans. The restaurant itself is kind of mid- to high-end casual. Am I on the right track? Or over-thinking?
GigglyPuff* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am I’ve done a couple of these now, dinner the night before and then all day. I usually do slacks and a nice blouse, so his totally sounds fine. I would recommend though, I feel so gross after flying and look so rumpled, is there anyway he could change in the airport bathroom, even if he’s not going to hotel/room before dinner? I promise, he’ll probably feel way better, and there’s less likely a chance of ruining the clothes (spilled drink, etc) and not having backup.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am That’s what I would do, but my partner is… well, he’s not a great traveler at the best of times, and his experiences with business travel are really minimal. The idea of changing in an airport bathroom is so foreign to him that I think he would get really flustered. I might suggest it, though! I will definitely suggest that he put the sweater on after the flight. And I will lend him my Tide pen.
Free Meerkats* January 18, 2019 at 11:50 am This is where the Family Bathroom is your best friend. I’ve done several one day trips for interviews, so I’d wear comfortable clothes on the plane, change into interview clothes that were in my carry-on and spruce up in the family bathroom, interview, then reverse the process. It only adds a few minutes to the time in the airport, but you feel so much better!
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am Sounds right. I see the dinner as less formal than the day long and you were on a flight all day. Just make sure things are not going to get wrinkled in flight. He might want to add a tie, depending on how formal the office is. My trick is to bring a toothbrush and tooth paste and make sure I brush my teeth after the flight. It’s great if you have time to change your clothes, but often there isn’t any, so brushing my teeth helps me feel refreshed.
seller of teapots* January 18, 2019 at 11:50 am Yes to the toothbrush!! It makes such a big difference, imo, when you have to go straight from the plane to work-mode.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm I bring a toothbrush, but also face wipes and then do my make-up in the airport bathroom. It keeps everything a bit fresher!
Persephone Mulberry* January 18, 2019 at 11:51 am Assuming he is using some kind of garment bag for his interview suit, I would opt for packing a second blazer for the dinner rather than a pullover.
Qwerty* January 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm Make sure that the dress pants for the dinner are not the suit-pants. That’s just tempted fate for food to get dropped on the pants during dinner.
Fabulous* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 am I finally finished a HUGE project yesterday that I’ve basically been working on since late August. I am so excited and definitely did a little happy dance last night. It’s a ginormous weight off my shoulders just literal days before I go on maternity leave. Just wanted to share!! :)
The Curator* January 18, 2019 at 10:41 pm Boy I know the feeling. My big project is launching. https://z.umn.edu/4048 Congratulations!!!! And please imagine, I am throwing you a parade.
Dreamer* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 am How do I propose a new position to my boss? Im a teapot admin and the only person in my 5000 employee company who knows any thing about teapots. strangely my position reports to plates department. Recently, A higher up ( she reports direct to Chief coffecup officer) pulled me aside to say that she would like me to move to the coffeecup dept. ( I am estatic, because of issues with my manager described in older threads) She plans to meet with my manager to pitch her idea, even though she technically can override her. My current duties are actually Teapot System manager ( I researched by pulling job descriptions for this from different job boards. How do I pitch this a promotion and not a lateral move. also justifying the (hopefully 30% raise) market rate salary?
Steve* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm I would wait to get the approval for the move before suggesting any raise, so that it doesn’t give your manager an added reason to refuse. Then frame it as request for a raise / promotion with supporting documentation based on what you’ve researched. I think Alison’s advice on asking for raises would be useful – my gut says that the key is to wait for the approval (unless it’s a deal-breaker for you).
Dreamer* January 18, 2019 at 12:52 pm Well my plan was to wait until the approval for the move. I believe they will talk early next week. I am honestly more focused on the title jump ( because I am already doing the job). I just figured it would be a good idea to lump both together? Even after the approval their will be a lot of talk about specifics ( or their should be ) ie New title, New duties/what tasks I drop that dont make sense. I am just not sure how to build the case for this new “position”.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:54 pm I would break it down into “this is what I actually do, it fits more under this title…” then they go “oooooh it does, we can fix the title.” next you say “this title tends to come with this salary range…can we talk about renegotiating my salary to be closer to those standard” Not exact scripts. I stink at those but that’s the route i would take to make it flow.
Anonymous36* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 am How can you tell a coworker who chews very loudly to please keep it down? It seems like an impossibly awkward topic to broach! Is the only solution to put in headphones and silently rage??
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am I don’t know if you can ask someone to chew quieter. But you might be able to broach it, if you frame it like it’s your problem, not theirs. So, maybe some language like, “I know this sounds nuts. But I’m super sensitive to food noises. Do you mind maybe snacking a little quieter?” But yeah, this might be a headphones moment. Also, you may want to think about your own reactions to this. ‘Silently rage’ seems a strong response to something that’s fundamentally harmless.
JanetM* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am There is a thing called misophonia, which (as I understand it) is a magnified emotional response to specific sounds, often though not always eating noises. There isn’t any “evidence-based” treatment; current best efforts include desensitization and talk therapy.
CastIrony* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm My best friend has a boss like this and that is sensitive to smells. She eats when he is not in the office (They share it.).
Lola* January 18, 2019 at 12:16 pm I would wear the earphones. Unless the chewer brings up the subject, I would not address it. The thing to always keep in mind is “Does this affect the employee’s performance in any way?” It does not.
Potato Girl* January 18, 2019 at 1:53 pm Part of your performance is having good relationships with coworkers, though. It’s been said on this site before that being a pleasant person is a job requirement. So I’d argue that chewing loudly, smacking your food, making a water-drop sound with your lips, arrhythmic tapping, whispering, singing, humming, being aggressively cheerful, etc ARE all in fact performance issues because they make you a terribly grating person and therefore not pleasant to work with.
Joielle* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm This is true, but it depends on whether the coworker is chewing rudely or just… chewing. My husband has misophonia and sometimes the sound of people eating bothers him even if they’re chewing quietly with a closed mouth. If it’s unnecessarily loud chomping or slurping, that’s one thing, but if the OP is bothered by regular eating noises, I don’t think they can ask the coworker to change.
a non non* January 18, 2019 at 11:03 pm Also, some people are just loud chewers. For instance, my father chews really loudly, even though he keeps his mouth closed the whole time. We just recently figured out it seems to be that because of the way his face is structured/his large nose, a seemingly disproportionate amount of noise escapes through his nostrils. The only way for him to chew quietly is to plug his nose (which looks very odd).
ChachkisGalore* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm You can’t really tell a coworker that, but you can ask. Only a person’s boss can make that sort of demand. Just ask nicely and keep it about yourself rather than about them (like using “I” statements rather than “you” statements). Even if they are an objectively louder than normal chewer, it’s definitely best to approach it this way so that you don’t immediately put them on the defensive. I think most people would handle this kind of request professionally/politely. I can’t say for sure how many people would actually follow through with the request (I’m hopeful its the majority of people, but maybe not the vast majority), but as long as you ask nicely/in a low key manner there’s no reason for the loud chewer to respond rudely to the initial request. Of course there are outliers, but the vast majority of people are really pretty reasonable.
Zona the Great* January 18, 2019 at 8:48 pm I wouldn’t. There are just too many reasons for it but the first that jumps to mind is a deviated septum like mine. Before I had surgery, I couldn’t breath at all while I ate so I was always gasping for air.
MarfisaTheLibrarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 am Are there any TV shows or movies that prominently feature work environments where the work environment portrayed is professional and would be AAM-approved? Obviously a drama-free office doesn’t make for great plot most of the time, and “family” office dynamics can make entertaining or dramatic plot, but really! This is inspired by me watching truly hilarious clips of Brooklyn Nine-Nine where I kept going “WOW no” “OMG Alison would have so much to say about that” “wait isn’t that sexual harassment” “BOUNDARY CROSSING ALERT”
LadyByTheLake* January 18, 2019 at 12:11 pm I generally think of Criminal Minds (with the possible exception of Penelope) as a pretty good example of a functional workplace with respectful, professional people who use their words. In every tv show there is a problem of there only being so many characters, so in any show the characters tend to be both personal and workplace friends and thus all up in each others’ business in a way that would be really weird in real life.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:23 pm Hmm. I am watching Law and Order reruns and they don’t seem to have relationships in the workplace.
Hope is hopeful* January 18, 2019 at 1:22 pm Ah Jack McCoy though! (But off screen and mostly background to his character introduction). Also Logan and Olivet I think (early years L&O) and possibly Rodgers the ME and Captain Ross (L&O CI) …..I may watch L&O too much!
Kittymommy* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm You know, this is true, especially when Hotch ran it. The Morgan/Penelope banter may raise an eyebrow though.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm I used to love when Morgan called her, “Baby Girl.” It reminded me of college party days when my gay male friends would call me that.” :) Then I watch the show with a boyfriend when I was in my mid-30’s and he goes, “WTF?!” Then I saw it through different eyes and am uncomfortable every time he calls her that. Like, no. You work together. Do not give young women the idea that this is a term of endearment they should expect from a coworker.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 1:42 pm I’m just annoyed that the nickname came about because Reid forgot her name so couldn’t tell Morgan what it was. I mean, really? Reid? With the eidetic memory? That made no sense. (Even less sense several seasons later when they made it so Morgan actually met her before the scene in which he asked Reid who she was.) (Really, I’d like to report the Criminal Minds for horrible workplace practices because someone kidnapped and gagged the continuity fairy *years* ago and no one seems to care even though they are profilers.)
froodle* January 18, 2019 at 1:45 pm oh my gosh I was watching an episode where the whole fbi office was getting lessons on not calling each other baby girl or chocolate thunder in the office and Garcia was horrified and I was like, “wow, hr should totally have talked to them separately before doing a whole presentation to everyone, this is so unprofessional, I bet Alison would disapprove”.
MuseumChick* January 18, 2019 at 2:10 pm I love Criminal Minds! Years ago I was watching an interview with the actress who plays Garcia where she relived why her character and Morgan call each other those names. Apparently all the actors had to take a sexual harassment class, and and the actor who plays Morgan spent the entire class sitting in the back writing notes playfully “sexually harassing” each other. The writers thought it was so funny they put it in the show. Now, for TV, that works. In real life not so much!
pamela voorhees* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm This is an absolutely delightful question! The best I can come up with is the IT Crowd? Which is… not great, but compared with something like Veep, looks like a model of professionalism. Roy and Moss (and Noel, I guess) are pretty competent when they have to be, and Jen generally lets them do what they think is best? The only other thing I can think of that isn’t horrifically bad is Bob’s Burgers, but that’s because it’s a literal family, the dynamics are pretty wild (ie: Bob having to give a workplace evaluation to his wife, Linda. Spoiler alert, it doesn’t go well, but in general they all get along, function well, and handle problems). Neither of these would be AAM-approved though. There’s got to be better suggestions…
Elizabeth Proctor* January 18, 2019 at 1:12 pm Madam Secretary? Obviously not a typical work environment, but there was only one quick intra-office relationship story line and it ended fine. Definitely no medical shows hah. Those make you think all nurses and doctors or doctors and doctors are sleeping together.
Luna123* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm On the Secretary of State’s side, you’re probably right, but when I was watching Season 4 all I could think was “Oh noooooo” as Henry invited Dmitri over to have dinner and play video games. That is 100% crossing the line from “friendly” to “actually friends.” (Sort of understandable, given everything that they’ve gone through, but still crossing the line.) God, I love this show so much. I can’t wait until Season 5 comes out on Netflix.
Applesauced* January 18, 2019 at 1:13 pm Maybe the West Wing? (ignoring when CJ dates her Secret Service guard…. or Donna and Josh… I do think the CJ-Danny thing was well done, she was very professional about why they couldn’t date) At least there it’s clear that they don’t have time for friends outside of work, so the work/friends dynamic is believable Parks and Rec had some good office moments (when Leslie encourages April, when Leslie *tries* to keep work and campaigning separate) but again the coworkers bled into friends and crossed boundaries. Honestly, I don’t think a true professional environment would be interesting enough for a TV show.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 5:52 am Loved that show. Also Night Court…with the exception of the smarmy leering lawyer of course. Hmm…what about CSI?
MissDisplaced* January 18, 2019 at 6:17 pm I think the university on Big Bang Theory is a fairly good example for the most part. Dr. Sheldon Cooper would be in trouble a lot more than what’s been portrayed though. There have been a few wacky work situations, but most of the drama seems to take place away from work.
Middle School Teacher* January 18, 2019 at 10:01 pm Howard would be too, especially in the earlier seasons. So much sexual harassment…
TechWorker* January 18, 2019 at 7:05 pm Silent Witness? Okay they’re definitely all portrayed as friends as well as colleagues, but they get on, work together well and seem to have sensible management.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 4:19 am This is maybe not a conventional answer but: Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Fluff* January 19, 2019 at 3:45 pm Yeah, I was just thinking of Cpt. Picard. Lt. Riker did not get to just go off, the romances were limited While he and the doc had a history, and the work place romances on board generally did not work ;-) And there is a great episode where the good Captain makes a professional choice about a work place romance.
GMN* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I am 90% likely quitting my job on Monday for a better offer somewhere else and I feel like the mother of all cynics… I have great colleagues that taught me so much but I’m just ready and I feel underappreciated where I am. Am I insane to be this sentimental about a job?
EddieSherbert* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am I think we spend SO much time at work and it’s such a huge part of our lives, you’re going to feel invested in it no matter what. Even if you don’t like the job or company or know you’re “moving up” in a way that matters to you… there’s something you liked and that you’ll miss (even it’s just the familiarity of it all). When I quit “ToxicJob,” I still dealt with feelings of guilt! And I HATED that place with a passion. But I felt like I was abandoning my coworkers and I was leaving a big project half finished… etc.
Former Church Lady, now a Fed* January 19, 2019 at 4:01 am When I left my job in December, I cried almost every day for a week (I ended up getting a stye after that, too. Awesome.) I was so bored and burnt out, but I was also so sad. Excited for new things (wow, benefits!) but it is still a huge change. You’re normal. Best wishes on the new gig.
Anonymous36* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am Nah, I think everyone feels a similar way, even when leaving a job they hated. I even had that feeling when I was merely transferring to another team at the same company, in the same room LOL.
Anonymous Celebrity* January 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm Not everyone does. I left my last job and felt nothing but pleasure. Pure, unadulterated pleasure. No guilt, no regrets, just very much looking forward to what came next. I was elated. Nobody was stuck working there, they stayed because they wanted to, and anyone I wanted to keep in touch with I could keep in touch with after I left. Not everyone reacts the same way.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 1:03 pm Nah, it’s natural to become fond of a job and colleagues and miss them when it’s time to move on. Probably feel the same when it’s time to move on from newjob too!
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I’ll put my question first and background second… please help! This team I’m supposed to take over leading in one week is to be a pilot for Agile in our company, and while I have tons of lean experience I have zero Agile experience. I bought “Learning Agile” by Andrew Stellman, and had considered buying “Agile Estimating and Planning” by Mike Cohn, but its expensive. Does anyone have any recommendations for other resources, or trainings I could ask to attend? Background: I posted last week that I’m in a rotational program, my special rotation had fallen through (budget was cut), and since everyone else had already chosen rotations it was looking like I was out of a job. Well, it continued looking like that for one (extremely stressful) week. But then something amazing happened! The program manager got wind of a special project that needed a project manager, and asked if I’d be willing to do it. Normally I don’t think its something someone with my experience level would get to lead, but it was one of those things where my dilemma sprung to his mind. I’m super excited! Of course, now the original rotation I was supposed to have is coming back to say maybe they can make it work… and I’m feeling weird about telling them ‘thanks but no thanks’ after they pulled so many strings to make it work for me in the first place.
Lola* January 18, 2019 at 12:20 pm Look online for SCALE Agile training. Some are live sessions and others are strictly online. It’s pricey-about $500-$750 per class. But you might be able to get your company to cost share.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm Thanks, I’ll check it out! My work is pretty great about paying for training.
Penguin2* January 18, 2019 at 1:16 pm Agile isn’t hard! There are tons of free or cheap trainings out there – check out Udemy (I think I paid 99 cents for their PMI-ACP training series). Is the project an application development or systems integration project? Or is it a non technical project where they want to use Agile principles? First, decide what type of agile you want to do (Scrum is probably the most common that you’d have heard of). Start with the basics: backlog development, user story development, estimating (do easy stuff like S/M/L/XL or use planning poker – there’s a free app you can use for that); do daily standups, do retrospectives, use a Kanban board. This is all truly not that hard if you familiarize yourself!
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm Erm, both all of and none of the above. Trying to change a business process that includes technical analysis of data, by improving the homemade applications (read: fancy excel spreadsheets) with which we do the analysis, and also reducing the number of review gates, sign-offs, etc within the process.. So basically we want to Agile-y transform the bureaucratic process into a lean/Agile one. I’m hoping that since lean comes so naturally to me, Agile will just feel like a jumping off point from lean. I was invited to a ‘scrum of scrums’ Monday so I think I’ll start with reading up about that this weekend!
Qwerty* January 18, 2019 at 1:22 pm I remember my team reading Scrum and XP from the Trenches when we switched to Agile. It was a quick and easy read by someone who documented his team’s experience with trying to implement Agile. An important thing to remember is that usually transitioning to Agile goes in cycles. Trying to be perfect from the beginning often doesn’t work. Usually what happens is you go through a cycle where you read up on Agile, realize that you missed the mark, implement some changes, deal with the growing pains, and once everything seems stable and happy – repeat. Basically, use the Agile process of iteration to implement Agile ;)
Coder von Frankenstein* January 20, 2019 at 10:07 am Coming to this late, but the most important thing with agile development is not to overlook the forest for the trees. The essence of agile is rapid feedback: You don’t want to wait until the end of a big project to find out what you got right and what you got wrong. You want to find out as soon as you can, so that you can correct course when necessary. That’s why you develop in sprints, so you can put something in front of the end user right away and have them tell you if you’re going in the right direction. It’s also the reason for stand-ups: If the team is having brief regular check-ins about what they’re doing, it helps to surface miscommunications and obstacles so they can be dealt with quickly. All the “rituals” of agile – the scrums, the planning poker, the retrospectives, the burndown charts, et cetera – are tools to support that goal. I have seen a lot of teams go through the rituals without understanding the goal, and what they end up with is waterfall with stand-ups. And you don’t need all of the rituals! They are tools in a toolkit. Use the ones you need for the job at hand.
Just Elle* January 21, 2019 at 7:54 am Thanks for the advice. I’m pretty familiar with this problem from my lean manufacturing background. No, the point isn’t the tool, the point is the type of thinking the tool is trying to guide you too. But I know in the beginning when you don’t know as much its an easy trap to fall into.
Security threat protocol* January 18, 2019 at 11:13 am I need a sanity check re: the way my employer handled a bomb threat. Apparently, my building, which also has a school in it, received a bomb threat yesterday. The school took the day off. I heard about the threat through a coworker, and texted my boss, who was at a directors meeting off site. She said that the bomb threat had been determined to be “not credible” but I could work from home if I was nervous (which I appreciated). Another director told her report later that a plainclothes policeman was downstairs. So my issues are: –I think it was incredibly bad optics for senior leadership to be offsite. The meeting had already been scheduled, but it’s pretty easy to say “it’s not credible” when your life isn’t on the line. –The lack of communication. I get not wanting to start hysteria, but if they had sent an email saying “The police think it’s not credible for x y z reasons,” I would have felt better. –It’s not credible, but credible enough for the school to close and for a cop to be there all day? Should I speak to my boss the next time I see her about this?
EddieSherbert* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I think – because you work in a school and unfortunately these kind of things seem to be somewhat common now – it’s worth talking to her about it. I would probably only mention #2 though, in the mindset of “if something like this happens again, could we handle it this way? A lot of people, myself included, got legitimately worried about safety before I thought to text you.”
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:35 am There’s a school in the building; I don’t think she works at it. The communication could have been better handled.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am I don’t think there’s any issue with them being at the offsite. There IS an issue with the lack of communication, which could have been exacerbated by the offsite. When a bomb threat occurs, people have an absolute right to know as soon as possible, and to make their own decisions about what credible means. If they’re unwilling to give the details of why the threat wasn’t credible, then then have to be ok with you not taking their word for it. I also don’t like the ‘nervous about it’ statement – its not like a kid being nervous about thunder, its ‘jeez I’m not really willing to risk my life over something that’s probably nothing but who knows people get things wrong.’ I would speak to your boss (preferably with a group of coworkers) about putting an SOP in place for how the company will handle bomb threats moving forward. Suggestions like: if school is cancelled, coming into work is optional… and clear guidelines for who is responsible for notifying employees and how that notification will be communicated (email, texts, whatever). Don’t dwell too much on this instance since they can’t change it now, just make sure they have a process in place for the future.
RabbitRabbit* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am Schools are hyper-vigilant about bomb and other violence threats at least partially due to parent concerns/concerns over lawsuits, so their protocol does not necessarily have to bear any resemblance to anyone else’s protocol or to the credibility of threats. I don’t understand the comment about the offsite meeting and optics? I used to work at a hospital and was in a psych department for a while; we essentially shrugged off a direct threat that someone was coming in to murder everyone in the office. There was notification to security and such but we kept working as usual.
Security threat protocol* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am The leaders of the company, who knew the most about the threat and made decisions of how to respond to the threat, were all offsite. So they’re basically saying “Take our word for it that your location is safe, while we’re 5 miles away.” That was my issue.
INeedANap* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm But was it really their word? I mean, I was assuming that they were relaying information about the bomb threat that they had received via an appropriate source; so maybe the police, or other security personnel were saying it wasn’t credible and they were then passing that information on. Since they were offsite, and yet knew there was a plain clothes officer there, they must have been communicating with someone about it. And since they knew the most about it, someone was giving them that info, which I would assume is the police. I agree that this doesn’t seem problematic to me assuming I am interpreting this correctly: they were offsite, they were being given info by the professionals that the threat wasn’t credible, and therefore they then gave that info to you when you asked.
Security threat protocol* January 18, 2019 at 12:18 pm “I was assuming that they were relaying information about the bomb threat that they had received via an appropriate source; so maybe the police, or other security personnel were saying it wasn’t credible and they were then passing that information on.” No. When I got in, people were buzzing about a bomb threat and how a bunch of people had taken off. When I texted my boss, she said it was not credible, but did not share any supporting information. The information I received about the undercover cop was secondhand from another coworker. Nothing was shared officially at all.
INeedANap* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm Yes, I get that nothing was shared officially at all, what I mean is I don’t know where else your boss would have gotten this info other than police, so that’s why I am assuming the info went like this: police gave info to bosses -> you texted boss -> boss repeated to you what they got from police.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 4:26 am I don’t think it’s their fault that they weren’t present, but it sounds like they were too hands-off about it. If they’re the senior leadership at the company and they hear there’s a bomb threat on-site, they should, at the very least, try to get in touch with the people at that site and deputize somebody to take the lead on letting everybody know what the police have to say and what their options are for how to respond. The way it’s described, it sounds like they were just hanging out at their off-site, telling each other it’s fine while the rest of you worried. That’s not very considerate. So, as others have said, I think it might work to say, “Can we put a plan in place for how we’ll handle communication about similar issues in the future?”
Indigo a la Mode* January 20, 2019 at 4:39 pm Have you read “The Gift of Fear”? Gavin de Becker has a section about bomb threats and how they’re determined to be credible, and reading that might make you feel better about it. I’m sorry you experienced that–that is so scary. I don’t think it’s fair, though, to say that the leaders were being cavalier by being at a meeting that was already planned, assessing a threat, and determining it didn’t need to hinder business that day. You have good reason to feel uncomfortable, and talking about communication in potential emergencies is vital, but the leaders didn’t do anything wrong vis a vis the offsite – it’s not like they took all the lifeboats and abandoned everyone on a sinking ship. Focus on what can be improved and try to avoid building resentment over something that couldn’t really be helped.
Not All* January 18, 2019 at 12:22 pm Your office may vary, but in every one I’ve worked in as a fed you’d get some serious side-eye & a good start on a reputation for being alarmist/over-reactor. Schools these days pretty much always err on the side of over-caution, if only because it’s more efficient than dealing with parents overreacting. Also, once they cancel school it’s not reasonable to say “no, nevermind, everyone come back” once they get more information. Sure, they could have sent an email that police had given the all-clear but expecting them to cancel a meeting over something that wasn’t an issue? Nope.
government worker* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm yeah, you’re overreacting. I work at a courthouse and we get bomb threats all the time — it’s rare that we even have to evacuate. I don’t understand why your boss would cancel their offsite meeting? Nothing about your expectations make sense.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm There’s a huge difference between a court and a school. Courts anticipate that they will have problems. I know there are some very high tech courts out there that are more like fortresses than courts. Usually the police have a plan in place and officers are present or can arrive quickly. Some courts also have security personnel on site as an SOP. Schools not so much. FWIW, OP, I think that boss handled it badly. Text messaging is not how to address subordinates who are under threat. Ideally, she would have left the meeting. A second choice would have been to call you guys and speak with you directly over the phone. I think that direct communication is important, so texting would be a no-go. I think that she should have been looking for you guys rather than you guys trying to contact her, especially since she seemed to be aware of the situation and had additional information. The reason why everyone was talking about it was because of the absence of leadership. People will do that, they will fill in their own blanks even if it means wandering around and asking everyone else. I remember in high school we had bomb threats on a regular basis. Because of a series of miscommunications we all went back in even though the treat was not cleared. I got to watch the bomb squad take apart a small bomb. I totally lost confidence in the leadership of that school. I knew they were not going to keep me safe and I had to go with my own judgement. Likewise yourself, OP. Use your own best judgement at all times. Management is not managing.
Security threat protocol* January 18, 2019 at 4:20 pm Thank you. All the comments that bomb threats are just normal and I’m overreacting kind of put me off. You’re right about the difference–courts (and many government buildings) have security and cops all over the place. In my local court, every person and bag gets scanned before being allowed in. In contrast, the last time we called 911 at my office, it took over 20 minutes for help to arrive, and we have no security at all. In fact, my own office was burglarized last month.
Topsy* January 18, 2019 at 8:40 pm Sure, talk to your boss if you want. Though it sounds like your employeer handled everything well. A threat was noted, evaluated, and found not to be an issue. *shrug*
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 3:45 pm Even in an environment where threats are SOP, your feelings and desire for communication from TPTB are valid and not an overreaction. Tell your boss that, in future, you’d like an official communication to hopefully stem the buzz and provide a certain course of action. It sounds like you don’t feel safe there (for good reason(!), in general, and each incident is an escalation. I’ve never worked anywhere this lax. There are better workplaces to be had. Imagine where else you can work and give the safety issues proper weight if job-searching.
UK Civil Servant* January 19, 2019 at 4:20 am I used to work in ordinary offices and bomb threats meant evacuation – no question. I now work in a secure government building and bomb threats are dealt with differently – we have onsite security, they tannoy for everyone to go inside and *don’t* move around the buildings, then they investigate, then we might be evacuated or they might stand down. Your office protocol needs a little work, not terrible not brilliant, but it *has* undermined staff confidence in management, and that is a big deal.
Anon, a moose!* January 18, 2019 at 6:03 pm My building was one caught up in that mass bomb threat business the other week, and when building management debriefed tenants they specified that they didn’t notify us until after the investigation because that’s what the police told them to do. I don’t love that, but I recognize the reasoning behind it. This is just to say that the decisions made probably have very little to do with your boss’ opinion and everything to do with the police expectations and procedures.
Extra Slice* January 19, 2019 at 5:01 am It sounds like it was handled pretty much as I’d expect. Usually the police don’t want information being passed around unless they deem it essential as that can cause panic, rumours that are inaccurate and merely fuel fear and hysteria which makes it harder for them to do their job, so I think your boss was probably following the instructions they were given. As for the optics comnent, that seems unnecessarily hostile to me. Why on earth should they cancel a meeting over a threat that had already been assessesed and judged to be not credible? What a waste of time that would have been! Do you have other concerns about your employer/management besides this? Because unless you have some serious worries about their judgement based on other things, your reaction here seems disproportionate and rather alarmist.
x* January 19, 2019 at 4:13 pm For a bomb threat, on site staff should be notified. That way, if they see an odd/unexplained package, they can notify the police. Not telling staff is unacceptable. I say this as someone who works in a place that receives higher than normal number of threats.
meh* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am I handed in my two week notice yesterday afternoon and things have not gone well. My boss was a little blindsided but he told me two weeks wasn’t enough and I had given him a multiple year commitment (not true). He later emailed me and said I was ruining the company and putting it in jeopardy. I have been a really solid employee for the last year and for both personal and professional reasons it is just a good time to move on. It was always a really toxic work environment so I am excited to move onto this new opportunity. I want to be as professional as possible and work out my notice, anyone have any advice on how to handle my boss? All my coworkers have been shocked but very supportive.
AdAgencyChick* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am Ugh. Is this a small business by any chance? Stand your ground politely. “I’m afraid my decision is final, so let’s talk about what we can do to make the transition as easy as possible.” “I have no recollection of such an agreement.” And just keep it firmly planted in your head that you have only two more weeks to deal with this loon. That will help you keep a smile on your face even as you’re saying things he doesn’t want to hear. Unfortunately, with a boss like this you may not be able to save your reference, so when you’re hunting for your next job, try to provide as many OTHER references as possible, and if they insist on speaking to him, caveat it with, “I’m afraid Percival took it really personally when I left, so that may color his perspective. But Lucinda, Johanna, and Fred would also be good people to ask.”
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 11:28 am Check with boss regarding what the top priorities are for your remaining 2 weeks in his employment. See to it these priorities are addressed first. Let him know if you cannot complete all items in the 2 weeks you have to complete them. Don’t cave re: giving greater than a 2 weeks notice. They will survive. If they don’t, it’s better they find this out sooner than later.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am So basically your boss just confirmed your decision to leave ; )
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am Honestly… I’d be inclined to say, forget my notice, if you keep giving me grief, my last day is today. If he’s that unreasonable, he might not be a good reference anyway.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am If your departure from the company would put it in jeopardy, then it’s a poorly run company. Your boss sucks.
The Cosmic Avenger* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 am Seconding everything above. Your boss is trying to guilt you into staying rather than actually fixing whatever problems that might have caused you to leave because that’s what dysfunctional people and organizations do. Try to deflect with statements like “I’m sorry you feel that way” or “We have discussed that already, it seems pointless to keep arguing about it”, delivered as calmly and flatly as possible.
FriYAY* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am This sounds like my former boss’ reaction too! Apparently I was supposed to give MORE notice….I was glad to be gone. Just put your head down, do whatever you need to do in the next 2 weeks, and then you’ll be gone! Be glad you were only there for a year. Hopefully you haven’t internalized too much toxicity and it won’t follow you on your new endeavors.
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm Ignore accusations. “I am unable to give more time but here is how I plan to wrap up things. Does this seem like a good plan? ” Provide documentation of your procedures so someone can step into the role with ease. So thankful I did this. I had a stroke in Sept and my binder has everything they needed.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm Be polite. Maintain professional distance. Be firm. And remember that you are out of there soon :)
Marthooh* January 18, 2019 at 1:37 pm You already gave proper notice. Document your work to make it easier for your replacement to pick up. Ask your coworkers and clients what, if anything, they need to make the transition smooth. Keep your boss informed — preferably not in person, since he’s being an ass. I doubt there’s a way to “handle” your boss over this. Do communicate, don’t leave a mess behind. That’s how to be professional when you leave.
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 3:26 pm Also, not your responsibility to manage or handle your boss. He’ll get over it or die angry. And you only have to cope with it for another 2 weeks. As Marthooh says, do what you can to make a smooth transition for your coworkers, and whoever replaces you, and remind yourself that this isn’t you, it’s your boss.
The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)* January 18, 2019 at 4:28 pm If your soon-to-be-ex-boss really thought your departure would ruin the company, he should have offered you a share in the business, or at least an actual employment contract. He didn’t. He either didn’t think about it, or cared more about keeping the flexibility of at-will employment for himself. My bet would be that no, your departure won’t ruin the company, though it might mess up his vacation plans or leave him doing overtime until he hires your replacement.
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am I am so terribly excited because after years of a stalled publishing career, I am taking the bulls by the horn to amp up my own indie-publishing efforts. Many of the authors who indie-publish in my favorite genre (urban fantasy), have quite a lot of success. In fact, a lot of them make more money than they ever did with big “traditional” publishers. I am also equally nervous about sinking in a lot of money into professional cover art (a big must) and the fact that so many years between when I last published and now have passed that I am basically starting over from scratch with building an audience. But still. At least I am regularly creating art I love and getting myself back out there! And I have a great support group of indie authors (some of whom started out in traditional publishing like me and some who have had tremendous success without ever trad pubbing) behind me. But still. Doubt weasels abound. My self-confidence took a huge hit when I became one of those people who had a GREAT first deal only to fail in selling more books to traditional publishers for over a decade…Oh the angst of being a writer…It never goes away no matter what step of the process you are on! Any other writers/other types of creatives trying to get themselves back out there? Or out there for the first time?
FLEMBOT* January 18, 2019 at 12:20 pm Coming across this post right now is a bit surreal for me, and I appreciate it. I’m an illustrator who started my career creating work for self-published books (covers and interiors) and indie film. I then spent the past few years doing design and simpler illustration for YouTube channels and other digital video content, but a project that came my way last year reignited my interest in indie book illustration. Cue brain weasels of all sorts! I guess that’s how you know you’re doing something that matters to you. It can be intimidating to retry a creative endeavor, but it’s definitely worth the while. Best of luck to you, F&F! And thanks for sharing, I needed to read this today.
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 1:39 pm I see a bunch of great indie cover artists having a LOT of success. They are in demand, keep raising their prices each year, and have tight schedules that it can be hard to get into as a new client. I hope you have much success as well!
Frea* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm When I talked about my latest book idea to my agent, I got a very “Ehhhhhhhn, urban fantasy is kryptonite right now” response (she wasn’t saying it to be mean, just that her agency’s had a hard time selling it via the trad publishing route, so we discussed changes that could be made to the manuscript) so I applaud your switching to an indie track. So many people are going hybrid and I don’t blame them. I’m not there yet, but I’ve been quietly earmarking things for future usage. I just finished out a series and don’t have anything complete to offer yet, so I’m quietly staring into the abyss of “how am I going to keep my audience???” So I get the paralyzing doubt, but I’m thrilled you’re regularly creating!! *waves moral support flag in your direction*
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 1:42 pm Yes, my agent and I tried to sell a few UF projects after this one, but none stuck. I’ve tried a few other things, too, but none of them took either. So at this point, with over a decade between sales, I literally have nothing to lose. My agent and I are still trying to sell other things, but I was quickly sinking into the quicksand of giving up before I decided to give the indie-publishing thing a real, concerted try. I do try to remind myself that if a tremendously successful literary agent who has repped giants in SFF hasn’t given up on me yet, then I shouldn’t give up on me either. But that gets hard to remember sometimes! And thank you for the encouragement!
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 1:43 pm Whew, by “this one” I mean the short-lived series that was published by a big publisher. As opposed to the indie series I’m trying to get off the ground.
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 3:20 pm Ugh. They’re not selling? Really? Mine–the first and second books are urban fantasy; the third will be full-on otherworld. By the time I finish something, it’s not selling? So I’m supposed to know that in advance even though I have no insider knowledge like an agent does? Maybe I should just give the f*ck up then. Seriously, why do I even try? I’m getting off here and going to clean the stupid house, which I’m probably going to lose because I can’t find a damn job either. *flails*
New Job So Much Better* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm After years with a reputable small press, I participated with 4 other authors last year in an anthology that we self published. I made more money on that than with any previous title in the past 25 years. If you self-pub, be sure to hire a good cover artist and a good editor. Good luck!
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 1:44 pm Congrats! I’m actually participating in my first anthology soon, which has me excited. Nobody ever invited me to participate in one before. And I’ve hired a very excellent cover artist who is blowing me away with the covers she creates. Well worth the money!
LittleMissCrankyPants* January 18, 2019 at 5:40 pm One bit of advice that helped me a lot with regard to marketing: You can’t do it all, and you can’t do it all at once. I did a few major release day/week things, but then I just focused on doing one thing a day for 30 days, and after a month I’d done 30+ things! It’s way too easy to get yourself hypered into a frenzy because you feel like you’re just Not. Doing. Enough to promote your work. It will never be enough. Get over that, and move on with your writing life. Good luck!
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 2:31 pm Yes! I’ve really ramped up my efforts to find a literary agent this last year. It’s not going super well, but I feel like I have nothing to lose at all since so many other things in my life are falling apart, so it seemed like a good time.
Fact & Fiction* January 18, 2019 at 2:47 pm Best of luck, Youth! Don’t let anything stop you from seeking an agent if that’s what you want. :) The vast majority of published authors I know scored theirs by querying agents they had no connection to, and a lot of us had to query multiple books before we found one. And yes, it’s nice to feel like there’s one thing you can control (stepping up your efforts to find an agent) in the midst of chaos! That’s actually how I feel about getting more serious about indie-publishing. I wish I felt like I had retained a larger audience from the books that were published by a big pub, but I wasn’t mentally healthy for a few years so I literally couldn’t do more than what I did!
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 2:56 pm Yeah, it seems like a lot of it is determined by luck and timing! And yes, it can be really frustrating to feel like you can’t do things as effectively due to mental health. But I hope you find the success you seek in indie publishing. On the topic, I’m acquainted with a talented author whose primary job is as an artist. Her books are amazing but her covers with Harper Collins were so-so. They wouldn’t let her design them herself, so for her most recent book she went indie so she could do the design. It. Is. Gorgeous!
Elizabeth West* January 18, 2019 at 3:13 pm Ugh. I really don’t want to do this, not with this trilogy. I’ve thought about it, but Amazon is out (for reasons, especially having to do with legitimacy and their attitude that books aren’t worth jack–THE HELL, try writing one! :P) and I just cannot afford it anyway. I’m not much of a marketer and I don’t have any money for cover art and editors right now. I wouldn’t even know where to start anyway. I only made $96 with my short stories–that’s a hard sell anyway.
JHunz* January 18, 2019 at 6:05 pm Honestly speaking, you probably can’t self-publish successfully if you’re going to exclude Amazon. Between the massive Kindle userbase and the Kindle Unlimited program, that’s where an enormous share of the money is.
Elizabeth West* January 19, 2019 at 11:22 am Honestly speaking also, Amazon or not, selfing is pretty much NOT going to net you much of anything unless you’re a really good entrepreneur and/or already have a large following. I can’t afford it and especially not if I can’t get even a return on that investment. The reason I did the story collection on my own was because it was very short, and Amazon would have taken too much time and too much of the money. I mostly did it to raise money for Hurricane Maria relief anyway. $50 out of that $96 total went to the Hispanic Federation.
JHunz* January 18, 2019 at 6:10 pm Hey, good luck. There doesn’t seem to be as much going on in urban fantasy right now as a few years ago, I guess I didn’t realize that it was because the traditional publishers were down on it at the moment. There are lots of fans of it sitting in a drought and picking up new self-published stuff like Hero Forged, so there’s definitely an audience waiting.
Fact & Fiction* January 21, 2019 at 9:41 am Yep. This has been my impression from talking to a lot of successful indie publishers of urban fantasy. There is still a significant market for these books, and the readers are satisfying their craving for UF by reading a lot more indie-published books. Now, there may not be enough of them buying UF to satisfy traditional publishers, but there are more than enough for a lot of indie published authors to make a decent career out of it. There’s of course a lot of work involved–and obviously some are more successful than others–but a lot of them are making more money indie publishing than they ever did with bigger publishers. And I’ve seen quite a few authors who were never traditionally published doing pretty well for themselves, too.
EddieSherbert* January 18, 2019 at 11:14 am So I had an awkward moment recently! Long story short, there’s a type of ongoing training that was promised when I started my role. On average, everyone goes to like 2-3 training sessions a year. My manager averages 5-6 a year. My first couple years were good, but my last one was in 2016. I’ve been asking the person who schedules them to schedule me **since 2016!** I brought my manager into it in 2017. I brought it my grandboss’ attention a few months ago. And… I learned a couple weeks that manager has another one scheduled! After just going to one in October! And my immediate reaction was… to yell, “what the hell, are you serious?!” in the middle of the (open) office. At my manager. YIKES. It turned into a good meeting about company values (ongoing education!) and how that hasn’t been my experience at all, and great-grandboss was brought into the conversation about continuing my training (and agreed with me). And this week, I was officially signed up for two upcoming trainings (one much farther in advance than we normally schedule)! I’m feeling mixed – I have never been and never will be the person who wants to make a point by yelling. And I’m embarrassed by my behavior. But also… I finally got what I wanted? Anyone else have similarly awkward victories? Haha.
Anon Librarian* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am I don’t write, but I do draw on the side. I would highly recommend “Comic Lab” which is a podcast about webcomics. They talk a lot about self-publishing and audience building.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:42 am NOt quite the same and not really awkward but when I was low editor on the totem pole of a three man team, with a the middle editor being one who didn’t delegate as much as she could, I announced to the senior editor “I’m bored.” He said, “never tell your boss your bored” (I know this). But. Message received. they re0-allocated a bunch of duties and I got a lot more responsibility, which I wanted.
Anon because identifying comments* January 18, 2019 at 11:44 am Bahahaha I’m laughing in sympathy. People are people, and sometimes people have loud, vehement reactions. On the scale of rude things to shout at managers, “what the hell, are you serious?” is not that bad. I’m glad that you got the training! One time we had an all-hands forum-style meeting with our CEO. I brought up the lack of space in our current building and the abysmal wifi (takes 20 minutes to connect). CEO reiterated that our department is important. I told CEO that it was hard to feel valued when we work in, verbatim, “A shack with no wifi.” A week later, I heard that the head of our IT department had been fired. My coworkers jokingly accused me of getting him fired. A month later, the wifi works flawlessly. Sorry about the collateral damage…. it wasn’t my goal to get anyone fired!
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm I laughed out loud. From one wifiless shanty dweller to another, I applaud you.
Lupin Lady* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am This week I said “You’ve got to be kidding me” and people heard me. Fortunately the one that investigated was a good colleague that also agrees people are stupid. Still wish I hadn’t said it though.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 12:48 pm Oh no! Haha. I can see how you’d be embarrassed, but the very fact that you are means you’re not a chronic yeller, and everyone will see this for what it is (a normally calm employee who got frustrated) rather than taking it as a warning sign. I was actually just discussing outbursts with some coworkers this morning. I’m an exceedingly patient person, but there’s been a few times in my life I’ve utterly lost it, and they’ve all worked out grand for me. The time I was reminiscing on this morning… I was a union supervisor who went out of my way to be fair and kind when many other supervisors were on serious power trips. But employees were constantly sneaking off to the break room ahead of schedule, which is absolutely Not Allowed because its a serious safety risk for machines to be running with no one watching them. I tried again and again to be firm but polite that this was one rule they were not going to bend on my watch, and they always pushed it as far as they could. We’re talking 8 months of this nonsense toddler-like boundary pushing. One day there was a giant catastrophic machine meltdown and there was NOT ONE of 16 employees out on the floor to notice or hit the e-stop, even though lunch didn’t start for a half hour. I marched myself into the break room (their sacred space) and shouted about 3 sentences about how completely screwed they would all be if they didn’t get out their right now and fix it. By the time I was done, the room was a ghost town. Lunch boxes and half finished food remained on the table, steam slowly rising from them. In the distance, a microwave dinged away. A lone napkin floated to the ground, cartoon style. It felt SO good.
TeapotDetective* January 18, 2019 at 4:18 pm You’re a fantastic storyteller :D The lone napkin floating down in the wake of the mad dash out of the room…
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm Not the same situation… but once lost my temper at a colleague and told (yelled at) them to shut the **** up. In front of everyone. Including bigboss. But… having never done it in several years and having good reputation… was able to get past it pretty quickly. And from what you’ve said I think will be same for you.
FOWG* January 18, 2019 at 1:55 pm Sometimes this really can be a good thing. Many years ago I worked in a college. For some reason I never could figure out the switchboard decided to route all inquiries for Teapot Studies to my phone. I worked in a non public facing role in Teapot Services. Totally different. After several calls I phoned the switchboard and tried to explain they had the wrong number. They started arguing with me and things got heated quickly. Now I will be the first to admit I can be loud when upset. Runs in my family. As my voice was rising I heard a familiar voice behind me asking what was going on. It was my director. I explained what was happening and he proceeded to take the phone from me, explained to the switchboard who they were now talking to and proceeded to tear a strip off them for wasting my time. Maybe this sounds a bit petty but given I was in the middle of upgrading one of the systems at the time the interruptions were getting pretty annoying. Sometimes getting angry can pay off!
EddieSherbert* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm Haha, wow! That would drive me nuts as well… who tries to tell the person *with the extension* that the extension actually goes somewhere else?!
MRK* January 18, 2019 at 4:42 pm Honestly something seems funny that you couldn’t get signed up for any training for 3 years but your Manager was going to training sessions every other month. I wonder if they have a friend in scheduling, especially if employees are compensated for training time/get extra time off from work? I’d certainly be curious to see how much more training your boss gets this year now that grand boss has been pulled in
JustaTech* January 18, 2019 at 4:54 pm I was once in a meeting where a boss (from a very close but different department) suggested that maybe it would be interesting to un-do a year’s worth of my work to maybe see if we could increase a yield a little bit. I stared at him so hard that the people on either side of him edged over to get out of my line of sight. Then the boss was all “or maybe not, maybe that was well characterized and we don’t need to revisit it.” I’m normally not that aggressive, but I had thrown out my back and just taken a ton of prednisone and this would have been the second time a year’s worth of work would have been thrown out for no reason and I was just not having it. And it’s never been brought up again.
AdAgencyChick* January 18, 2019 at 11:15 am Anyone read the article from this week’s NY Times about the death of the sick day (ie, the expectation that you’ll work from home when you’re sick, including taking conference calls, unless you’re on your deathbed)? I…hate it. The phenomenon described in the article, not the article. Not least because it makes it an awful lot harder to get away with a job interview these days — sometimes a “doctor’s appointment” just isn’t enough time if the hiring company wants you to come in for half a day, but now taking a sick day means coworkers may press for you to join a call right when you’re going to be at the interview. But mostly I hate it because when I’m sick I want to be sleeping or at most binge-watching something, not answering email or participating on a call.
Lily Rowan* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am That’s the kind of thing that reminds me to be grateful for the culture at my current job. People take sick days, and really take them! Maybe a little email, but no meetings for sure — including people very high up in the hierarchy. It’s great!
DAMitsDevon* January 18, 2019 at 12:22 pm Yes, I’m grateful for mine too. I haven’t used too many sick days, but when I had a nasty stomach bug earlier this year, I told my boss I needed to stay home, but would try to call into a few meetings if I felt up to it. He told me to just get some rest. Also, my boss works from home, so he could theoretically work when sick all the time, but he has taken sick days (and just took a half day last week when he realized he was getting nothing done because of a lingering cold).
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am I like the option of working from home if I’m under the weather. But I also definitely RSVP No to meetings if I take a real sick day. Just set the expectation of what you are and aren’t willing to do on sick days.
agmat* January 18, 2019 at 12:26 pm My workplace is also totally reasonable about sick days. I can communicate how available I’ll be, if at all. There’s also no expectation of me to work while home with a sick baby. Maybe when she’s older it’ll be easier, but at under a year home sick with her means I’m totally off duty, maybe available when she’s napping.
Emily S.* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am I read that too, and groaned inside. My company groups all PTO (including personal/sick time) together with vacation time, and I think it sucks. Sometimes I just want a personal/mental health day, but PTO requests are supposed to be submitted 30 days in advance, whenever possible. However, this year I’m planning to take some long weekend staycations, which I can plan for in advance.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am I hate grouping all PTO together, too. People just use it for vacation, and then never take sick days, spreading the plague through the office.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 1:04 pm Yep, that’s the worst. My husband has them separate, but sick days are paid out at the end of the year if you don’t take them (vacation days are use it or lose it). You better believe the entire office, including him, works while deathly ill in order to ‘earn’ an extra week bonus pay at the end of the year.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am I hate it too, though I admit I do take advantage of the ability to work from home when I’m feeling marginally icky. I think the trouble is when we take advantage of that option and we set up the expectation that “sick” simply means, “I will be available from my couch instead of my office.” And yes, that does lead to trouble with scheduling job interviews. I admit I have used my migraines as an excuse when I needed to interview; I used to get them frequently enough that no one questions them as a reason to stay home and be unavailable. I am in the fortunate position of being able to say, “I will not be available today as I’m sick and plan on resting,” but my trouble is I haven’t actually done that in a while because of guilt. That’s on me. I swore a while back that for my next illness, I would take a day completely off, but then I got sick and it was over the holidays and we were off anyway. Eh. Wish me luck next time.
Just Elle* January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm My work is pretty average on this front, depending on supervisor. If you’re ‘sick enough’ no one expects you to work while home. The one thing that does really bother me about it is that it often requires you to share more info than you’re really willing to about your health. For example, I do enjoy the ability to work from home over a case of the sniffles. But I get migraines. Working, from anywhere, with a migraine, is not an option. But I find myself having to blurt out that I have a migraine to get people to stop bugging me to ‘just jump on real quick and answer an email’. And I feel particularly sorry for people who are trying to take mental health days, where the entire point is to be away from work, but don’t necessarily want to have to explain their mental health to people just to get them to buzz off about being on calls. To combat this I’ve just started adding expectations to my away response. Eg ‘Out sick but will be checking emails periodically’ vs ‘Out sick, I will respond to you tomorrow morning – if its an emergency, contact Boss’.
Arya Parya* January 18, 2019 at 1:29 pm This sucks. I actually took a sick day today. I haven’t been sleeping much the last few nights and woke up in the middle of the night with a headache. Usually I would pop some painkillers and soldier on, but I’ve been under quite a bit of stress at home and at work, that I thought it better to stay home and catch up on some sleep. I figured I could work from home this afternoon, but I’ve been feeling worse instead of better. Now I’m really glad I stayed home doing nothing. You can’t always tell how a day is gonna go and I’m happy I never promised anyone I would be available for calls.
Masters student of noe* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm I agree, this is super frustrating. I was really fortunate that at my last job (even though the manager was terrible in other ways and it was a toxic environment) she was a former microbiologist and if you were sick, she never questioned it and would ask if you needed to go home. This was also at a government job with plenty of sick days. Truly my only regret at that job is not taking more mental health days.
Suspendersarecool* January 18, 2019 at 2:29 pm I actually don’t mind. I have a chronic illness, so being able to take it easy without burning PTO is pretty awesome. Of course, it would be much better if sick days weren’t in the same bucket as vacation. :/
Lucy* January 18, 2019 at 3:04 pm I love my flexible job but I’ve taken a total of 17 *hours* of sick leave in two *years* including several weeks of pneumonia so I absolutely know what you mean! My boss is fantastic at accepting “I feel half dead so I’m going to bed” but I pressure myself to do just one email or catch up later on. My husband was off work sick recently, flat on his back with sinusitis. He asked me to fetch his laptop so he could work in bed. I flat refused on the grounds that being so sick you have to stay in bed means too sick to work. He blinked at me a few times before he agreed, then fell asleep for about six hours. Constant connectivity has its downsides!
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 6:56 am The downside to employers will show soon though–the memorable mistakes I’ve made have all been when I was working when I was in no condition to work. Happily my mistakes don’t hurt more than a production schedule and once a budget (revoke-fix-rerelease something recycleable).
Rebecca* January 19, 2019 at 9:39 am This is why I’m glad I’m non-exempt, and will never agree to willingly made “exempt” at my workplace. When I’m clocked out or I meet 40 hours, I’m done. I’ve seen emails from exempt people at all hours of the day and night, weekends, etc. when I go into work on weekdays or after weekends, no thanks. And it also means if I take a sick day, I’m not contacted or expected to be available.
Eleanor Shellstrop* January 21, 2019 at 1:04 pm Awful and I’m so glad my office isn’t like this. I had a sick day today and slept practically my whole 8-5. The two emails I sent this morning to my team both have awful spelling mistakes because I am ill. Cannot imagine having to work!
Anonymous Coward* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am Sort of a weird question, but here goes. For the first couple of months of last year, I was working at a tiny startup. I was let go, put it behind me, and found a new job. I was googling the company a couple days ago though, and I saw that there is a big exposé type piece on them and their industry in Bloomberg. It was published last month, so it’s pretty new. I didn’t speak to anyone about the company, I wasn’t contacted by any journalists about them, and I’ve entirely moved on from that company. Most of the things in the piece were new to me, even. Still, the CEO is an extremely neurotic guy and I can’t shake a sense of worry about him thinking I spoke to reporters to get back at him for firing me, and that he’s gonna sue me over it. So basically, should I do anything here?
Graciosa* January 18, 2019 at 11:20 am Yes. Stop worrying. No one spoke to you and you’re not involved in this. Unless that changes, don’t spend the mental energy. The proper reaction is “Huh. Glad I’m not still working there.”
Anonymous Coward* January 19, 2019 at 3:12 pm You’re right. I’m naturally an anxious person, which is why I was worrying about this. An external voice saying it’s not a problem is good. Thank you.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am You say yourself you didn’t even know a bunch of things that were printed. He doesn’t even remember your name. Trust me.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 3:50 pm He’s got bigger fish to fry than you. No offense meant here, I think you know what I mean. He’s going to go after people who are on his radar right now, you are So Last Year.
Chip* January 18, 2019 at 8:29 pm How would a journalist have known to contact you? Did you have a high-profile position?
Literally Sick and Tired* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am So my company just took away our sick time. They took all PTO and put it in the same bank and converted it to hours, but didn’t convert the sick time we had (so if we had two weeks vacation and 1 week sick time we now have 80 hours PTO). In addition we have to save 3 days for the last week of the year. I and several other employees have pushed back with HR but we don’t seem to be getting traction with the decision makers. I will probably start looking in the Spring if this doesn’t change, but in the meantime I don’t want to put in any extra time. I and the team I manage are completely pissed at the moment. Any recommendations?
CupcakeCounter* January 18, 2019 at 11:43 am Yeah that isn’t right…our company did that but it all converted (vacation, sick, and personal days) and the accrual rate breaks it down really clearly.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am Why are you pushing back with HR instead of the decision makers? What does your boss say?
Xarcady* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am Basically, they have reduced your total compensation by the number of sick days you used to have. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard of a company doing this. It saves the company money, but the end result is that more people come to work, and come to work sicker, and that can lead to entire departments getting sick, because people want to save their limited PTO for vacations.
Working with professionals* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm Check your state regulations too. Some states require companies to either provide the time or pay out for it.
nonegiven* January 18, 2019 at 11:15 pm They’re doing that where DH works, too, and changing the way PTO accrues. He understands that they aren’t supposed to be losing any time but I’ll believe that when I compare his next stub with his previous stub. Also, they are changing the pay periods to every other week from monthly. His first check under the new system is already late. :p
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 7:00 am Sorry… We went through that, and all we can see is that voting with your feet helps a little bit. But that only helps a little bit for the people who are left behind.
Human Embodiment of the 100 Emoji* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am I wanted to get people’s opinions- is it really worth my time to apply for jobs that I’m only 50-75% qualified for? I’ve gotten this advice from other blogs and friends and family, but I’ve never seen Allison address it. I’ve been applying for jobs that I believe I could do, but for which I don’t quite have all the qualifications (it calls for having a Master’s but I’m currently writing my Master’s, or it calls for familiarity with one database but I only have experience with a similar but different one) but I feel like I’m wasting my time because I haven’t gotten even one interview from the 20 plus applications I’ve put out. Should I actually keep doing this or is it bad advice?
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 11:20 am Oh! I would do this as a standalone post if you want to submit it to me as a letter!
Human Embodiment of the 100 Emoji* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am Absolutely! I’ll send it in an email!
Sylvan* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am How much time are you spending on applications for these jobs? If they’re becoming a serious distraction or if you’re feeling stressed by them, then I would not continue. But if you are spending a few minutes uploading your resume and typing a quick cover letter, then I would say that applying for the 75%-qualified jobs isn’t a bad idea: you aren’t expending much time or energy, so why not?
Pencil Cup* January 18, 2019 at 12:09 pm I don’t have any advice, but I can sympathize. In previous job searches I only applied to jobs I was 100% or overqualified for, but I started applying to things I’m only 50% or more qualified for during my current job search after reading some articles about men doing that. Before I didn’t apply to much at all, but seemed to have a high rate of phone screenings and then interviews. Now I apply to many more jobs, but only do an occasional phone screening and rarely get asked to interview. It’s gone from feeling like I was being seriously considered for jobs to feeling that I’m just filling a phone screening quota. Quite discouraging.
Aspiring Chicken Lady* January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/study-you-only-need-to-be-50-qualified-to-land-a-job-interview/amp This article basically says that if you’re 50% qualified, you’ve got the chances as someone 90% qualified… That being said, you still have to be able to ramp up to the position when you get in … “qualified” is not just the matchy-matchy of resume to posting (which probably has a whole lot of less relevant static smashed into it), but is actual ability to do the work. If the reader of your resume understands the job you’ll be doing, they can read between the lines about your potential awesomeness.
learnedthehardway* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm If you’re about 75% qualified, definitely apply. You probably have most of the critical elements. Often, a masters degree is a nice to have, unless a post-graduate degree is required to be in the discipline (eg. doctors – you need an MD, pre-med won’t cut it. Whereas MBA – if you have good business experience and a relevant degree, you’re probably fine). If you’re at only 50% qualified, make sure you have the critical skills – eg. if it says you must have people management, experience in teapot design, a degree in advanced teapot administration, and exposure to coffee pot manufacturing make sure you have the people management, the experience in teapot design, and a degree that’s somewhat relevant – teapot engineering or teapot manufacturing might be fine, as would teapot finance / commerce. Heck a degree in teapot history would be okay if you have the functional experience of teapot administration. I wouldn’t worry about the coffeepot stuff – that’s a nice to have. If your experience in all the other areas is strong, you might point out that getting exposure to the coffeepot stuff is a factor that would influence you to take the role, if offered. (Now, I need caffeine….)
Aspiring Chicken Lady* January 18, 2019 at 1:08 pm I second the use-commuting-time-to-recharge-the-soul thing. Even if sometimes you need to sleep. Knitting, reading, audiobooks … And then some slow but steady networking so that you can build the relationships that help you meet people who become not-strangers that maybe you could live with at some point. Or who might have leads on a new job. Nothing’s impossible if you can make incremental change toward your goal.
653-CXK* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm I don’t think it’s a waste of time trying, and there’s no sin in withdrawing early in the process if you’re not a good fit. Conversely, there may be jobs you think you’re not good at, but a company will either train you or let you subsitute experiences elsewhere.
Akcipitrokulo* January 18, 2019 at 1:19 pm Depends :) Often requirements are flexible. DB experience on a similar? Definitely. Ditto bug tracking systems for testers or most agile tracking apps. If you know the principles, minor differences are not usually an issue. If you think it might be OK and really like the job… be honest in cv, write awesome cover letter that shows why you are applying and trust that the hiring people won’t take you on if you don’t meet their minimum.
Arya Parya* January 18, 2019 at 1:50 pm My very first grown-up job I had, I didn’t even remotely qualify for. I had seen the posting, but didn’t meet many of the requirements. Then I was contacted by a recruiter looking for people just out of university wanting to work in IT. And they put me up for that job. It turned out they were totally fine with someone without the experience who was willing to learn and could learn fast. So these days, even if I don’t meet the exact requirements, but can show simular experience, I give it a shot. I think that especially in IT, this is quite common.
LargeHippo* January 18, 2019 at 2:33 pm I’ve heard this several times (as recently as yesterday) that men will apply to a job if they see they meet 50% of the qualifications and women won’t apply unless they meet close to 100%
Janet Snakehole* January 18, 2019 at 5:52 pm I read an article once about how this is A Gendered Thing, but now of course I can’t find it. I can’t remember exactly, but men tend to apply for jobs when they meet fewer of the qualifications than women do. Something like women tend to apply only when they’re 90-100% qualified, while men fall more in the 60-70% qualified range. I tried to keep that in mind when I was job hunting and applied for jobs that I wasn’t fully qualified for, if I reasonably thought that my skills would transfer or were almost close enough.
anna green* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am Someone was supposed to call me at 11am for a scheduled call. Around 11:12, I emailed, hey are we still doing this? She responded “sorry had an issue, let me go get to a conference room to call.” Does this drive anyone else nuts? I’ve been sitting here for over 15 minutes now waiting. The least she could have done was email/text/skype and we could reschedule. Why is my time less important??
Zona the Great* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Yes it makes me crazy. I think people are far too flippant with others’ time.
EddieSherbert* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am +100 Drives me nuts! Starting meetings late… long de-railing conversations… turning a meaningless “issue” into a BIG conversation (thinking of a recent meeting that spent 10 minutes worrying how we should run the next December Sale *if* the changes we’re developing now/testing in March aren’t ready (?) by next December)…
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am Definitely drives me nuts. It’s a huge problem at my company.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am Ugh, yes, I HATE this! Especially when it’s a job interview, because it’s so awkward, but internally it makes me insane.
Asenath* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm It drives me so crazy that I tend to leave/do something else and send an email asking them to re-schedule, if I can. I work with a lot of people who are late or even no-shows, and I think that ‘on time’ means being ready at least 10 minutes ahead of the set time.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 1:59 pm It’s not. And I’m 90% sure the “issue” was that she forgot. I’d start a personal policy around waiting for meetings where you will wait 5 minutes but after that you assume something came up and they’ll have to re-schedule. That doesn’t work very well if you are the one who called the meeting and needs the info, or if it’s with a client (though I do remember seeing advice for that situation on a previous post), or if you have much less clout than the person who called the meeting. But if you can do it – it may cut down on your personal annoyance. Plus you are training people to respect your time rather then training them to know that you will always be accommodating so there is no need to pay attention to when they were supposed to start the meeting.
Blue Eagle* January 18, 2019 at 4:23 pm Was this a call that you wanted or one that she wanted? The answer makes a difference. If she was calling for your benefit or if she is at a higher level, then you need to be more flexible. If she was calling for her benefit or if she is at the same or a lower level, then she is the one who needs to be more respectful of your time – so (politely) tell her that.
PX* January 18, 2019 at 11:16 am So this is probably about 80% rant and 20% ask for advice: I have very quickly and suddenly fallen out of like with my job. I’m not quite sure what to do about it. Its probably the result of the fact that our software development team are…the opposite of fast and agile (I’m a product manager). Add to that being bogged down by big company bureaucracy and feeling like my manager adds to the dysfunction by…not managing, not great planning and some lack of communication over the holidays that directly impacted me and really annoyed me – and I’ve spent the last 2 weeks of being back at work just…ranting in my head and hating pretty much everything. Other than the obvious issues with our work process, the other thing bothering me is feeling bored/lack of challenges. I’ve been in this role 3 years, we’ve had the same problems the entire time, the improvements have been minimal and I feel like there is nothing on the horizon for me to get excited about/learn/develop. I’m a pretty goal motivated person, and not having something clear to aim towards or a clear sense of achievement kind of bums me out. The obvious answers are: 1) job search. I’m sort of doing this – however its a bit complicated due to the fact that I’m a bit loathe to move, and jobs in my industry are not plentiful where I am. I’m probably also a touch overpaid (although benefits arent great so that could even out), but I really dont want to go down in salary. There’s also a potential carrot dangling – our company is having a re-org at the end of this year, and that should (in theory) open up a lot more doors internally which I would love to explore. 2)conversation with my manager on goals/growth. This is a good time of year as we will have to have our goal setting session soon, but I just. Really struggle with how to extremely clearly, but politely say that I’m feeling bored, frustrated and want to expand my skillset. Also because our team is small and its unfortunately not that easy in our team/company to find opportunities to do new or different things. So I’m not sure this will achieve anything. The sensible part of my brain says just have the conversation with my manager and it might help. Wait it out till the end of the year, see what the re-org brings and then ramp up the job search next year if I’m still unhappy. But the thought of waiting that long is just….killing me right now. Probably because I dont think anything is actually going to change and I’m going to have to spend another year pretending to be okay with things when inside I’m going to be dying. Usually I’m very good at not letting work things get to me, and just saying: “this is a good paycheck, it lets me do fun things outside of work, and if I dont like it I can leave”, but right now thats not working and I dont know why. Any tips for letting go of frustration? I just had a good 2 week break over Christmas, but if anything I think that only made it worse by being able to come back and see really clearly just how inefficient everything is!
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 1:32 pm Sympathy! It is very frustrating to see problems and have limited ability to sole them. Tips: Mindfulness: recognize and name the emotion when you feel it, then redirect your thoughts: “Ok, I feel frustrated right now. I can’t do anything to fix it, so deep breaths, and move on to another thought” and “Ok, my holiday was messed up because A, B, C. I’m doing X, Y, Z to prevent this from happening again”. Walking away from the frustration is something that you have to train your mind to do, bcs it’s in a rut. There’s usually no instant ‘oh that fixes it’, but a regular re-direct works. Planning: Can you take any of it over for your manager? I often ‘manage upwards’ by handing my manager the project plan and asking him to review / make suggestions. Growth: Look for ‘job adjacent’ skills that you’d like to learn, like Advanced Project Management or Hot New Technology . Look for new tools that the team / your manager can use to prevent the problems you saw over the holidays.
PX* January 18, 2019 at 4:32 pm Ugh. I feel like one of my frustrations is that I’ve already been managing upwards in some respects and not getting anywhere. And feeling completely at a loss of where to look/go/grow makes it worse. But definitely need to focus on the mindfulness. Hopefully this phase will pass and I’ll be able to go back to my usual “just let it go” self. And thanks for the reminder to take the opportunity to develop new skills while I can. There is definitely at least 1 can exploit in my current role :D
Qwerty* January 18, 2019 at 2:05 pm So much sympathy for this! I get how frustrating this is. What about passively looking for a new job? Get the resume ready, go to some networking events, etc. Browse through other job postings to see what skills you need brush up or if there are new technologies/methodologies to learn. Apply to things that sound interesting, but without the pressure of needing a new job immediately. Maybe someone at a networking event will know of a job that is adjacent to your current industry so that you have more options. As to why things are getting to you now when they didn’t use to – it might just be that it’s been going on for too long and you’ve lost hope that it’ll change. Studies have shown that humans want to feel productive and useful. Not having that sense of fulfillment can also be emotionally exhausting. Good luck!
PX* January 18, 2019 at 4:29 pm Thanks! I actually just applied for a job this evening. Role sounds interesting but Glassdoor reviews are very mixed and as always, the location is definitely not great. But as you say, its been the nudge I needed to update the resume. And at the very least, it will (hopefully) get me some interview practice which I’ve not had for a while. Anyway, getting this out has definitely helped! I feel like I will at least make a good faith effort to have a conversation with my boss about this because he will at least pretend to care even if his follow through is likely to be..minimal.
T. Boone Pickens* January 18, 2019 at 6:04 pm Talk to a 3rd party recruiter that recruits for your space. They can give you market intel and let you know what the market looks like. With you being in your role for 3 years things have changed quite a bit with employment numbers (assuming you’re in the US). The 3rd party recruiter can handle some of the job searching part for you. If nothing pans out from it, all you’re out is some time on your end. There’s a good chance they’ll freshen up your resume for you as well.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 4:39 am The part where you’ve had the same problems for three years is jumping out at me. I was in a similar situation a while ago — the same problems that were destroying my projects on day one were destroying my projects 3+ years later, despite all my best efforts to change things. There were always vague promises that things would turn around later — new management, new strategy, re-org after re-org — but nothing ever made a difference in the dysfunction. At a certain point, I decided it no longer mattered if things changed in the future because it was too late. It sounds like maybe it’s getting to be too late for you, and you should plan as if you will have to leave.
Brandy* January 19, 2019 at 9:29 am Oh! I relate to your post in a lot of ways. I was the VP of product at my company, which got swallowed up by a big beaurocratic parent company. And our dev teams struggled to deliver and the industry was pretty stale. Here’s how I kept things novel for my product managers: – for some, focused them toward career growth more in business strategy (identity what’s new, look at non build options for new revenue- partner/buy type work). These people got lots of exposure to the industry thinkers, m&a work, bankers etc. and built strategy business cases. – for some, double down and become more technical in their product management. I basically “gave” them to development to go be Super BAs/Product Owner types. They worked very tightly with operations and whipped dev into shape. It helped with the “us vs them” between The Business (Product/ops) and Development. – some worked closely with marketing as product marketing managers. -one of my reports was pulled off managing a product and pulled into developing a more formal process for governance- which projects move forward within the company and which are sidelined to preserve corporate resources. The hard thing about product management is that you grow by being senior but you very often never get management experience. You plateau in your career as a very highly paid individual contributor- and for some people that’s perfect! But when it’s not, you need to look product-adjacent.
PX* February 1, 2019 at 10:50 am Coming back so late to this, but if you have comment notifications on – thank you! The options you listed are things I would love (especially the first one) and while I dont know if it could happen in my company, I’m certainly going to use it when talking to my boss soon :) And for what its worth, I would very happily stay and grow to be a highly paid individual contributor, but I need to feel like things actually get done which is my current issue..
Nala* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am So today is my last day at horrible job! I have the next three weeks off until new exciting job starts. One of my side projects at horrible job is highly visible but not too time consuming (~30 min a week). I thought we had a clear cut transition plan, my backup would take over until the project goes away in 3 months. She was already trained already had the logins and everything. Two days ago her new boss decides backup won’t be taking this on and splits the ownership across 3 separate groups one of which is still undetermined. This morning I come in to turn in my computer and of course side project has blown up overnight. It feels right that on my last day management’s poor decisions come back to bite them and they can’t come back to be because they didn’t follow my transition plan and I don’t have a computer anymore.
learnedthehardway* January 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm Not your problem – you provided the roadmap and they chose to go off on a side road that wasn’t going to take them to the destination they said they wanted. Enjoy every moment of your three weeks off. DO NOT offer to keep working on the project.
MissDisplaced* January 18, 2019 at 6:25 pm Not your circus. Not your monkeys anymore. Congratulations on the new job.
Marthooh* January 19, 2019 at 9:09 am It’s kind of nice, isn’t it, when deeply annoying people just straight up tell you how smart you are to avoid them!
Sylvan* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am I’ve had an extremely light week at work – it’s essentially been two steps away from a vacation. What do you all do with times like these?
GoingAnon* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am Sometimes I fill out surveys on Amazon Mechanical Turk. Some of them pay decently, but most pay only a little — but at least it’s something to do. Some of them are pretty interesting. You just have to be able to quickly tab over to something else if you need to avoid your screen being visible. (There’s also a site called SurveyJunkie, but they pay so little it’s not really worth trying.) Generally though, I tend to read articles in the news, blogs, and look at social media way too much.
Pam Beesly* January 18, 2019 at 1:16 pm I bring in a book if it’s quiet and short-staffed; otherwise, like GoingAnon, I read news articles and blogs. Longreads is a great way to pass the time.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 1:33 pm Learn stuff, catch up on backlog, update my documentation.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 7:46 am I have a couple of official downtime projects. I’m rewriting development procedures to include the new role assigned to us a couple of years ago so it lists what other departments need to give us & set in place for us to complete the projects. (Re-org and staff changes and added bits from other departments…interesting times.) I’m also auditing a set of SharePoint team rooms against our archive to make sure that we have files for everything before our hard copy is sent to long-term storage.
Sharkey* January 18, 2019 at 11:18 am Any advice/pro tips for switching careers into higher ed? After a couple of years in startup land, I’m looking for a workplace with more stability (and better benefits) than what I have now. I’ve been managing the tech support team for the company I’m at now, and I think my skillset (customer service, management, organization) would translate really well to higher ed admin work, but I’m not sure how to sell it. For folks who’ve done hiring in higher ed administration or have made the switch, what are you looking for/what worked for you?
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am Sell those translatable skills. If you’ve ever done any work with the traditional age population (even though many schools are branching out to those outside of the 18-22 age bracket), mention it. Have you taught/led any workshops/conference presentations? In my experience, jumping from outside tech to higher ed tech teams is easier than in other offices. If you’re looking for a move into a non-tech based office, try to find positions that have a closer description to your current job description. Higher ed can be tricky to get into and very siloed at times, so for you it’s about getting your foot in the door!
Not a Real Giraffe* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am Are you looking for roles within the same job function? My experience with higher ed is that unless you are student-, donor-, or parent-facing, it’s really more about the translatable skills and experiences. When the career center I worked at was looking for an in-house tech person to support our staff, we cared about the candidates’ tech skills, not their higher education experience. Of course, if you have a genuine interest in using your tech skills to support the success of students, administrators, donors, etc., you should mention that in your cover letter.
Admin of Sys* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm Most staff positions at higher ed academia are looking for people good at the skills the job requires. In general, you should just present yourself the same way as you would if you were staying in corporate, with a few caveats. 1) In my experience, Universities (assuming US here, fyi) look for evidence of degrees and appreciation of higher ed in a general sense – any position is more likely to want you to have a degree than not, and the higher up you go, the higher a degree they usually want. For example, in my last university as a staff member who had nothing to with the academic side of the institution, I would still likely need a masters to get a job as a manager of any sort. This is less an issue in the more staff-oriented departments, but is still generally true. 2) There’s an inclination towards folks who perceive working at the university as a bit of a higher calling – it’s not that you shouldn’t mention the job stability as a factor, but there is definitely a ‘doing good for society’ aspect underlying a lot of University attitudes, and mirroring that can help your chances. 3) Promotions may be really really slow. The turnover at universities is very different than in the corporate world. An IT position that usually would cycle every 5 years or so may be held for 15 to 20. This is great if you’re looking for that level of time in a job, but if you’re hoping to get a better position inside your organization, it may not happen. (though this might be more an issue in tech, I’m not sure how it maps to other job types) 4) Universities may be a bit more cautious hiring right now, because there are a lot of grants that get paused during gov’t shutdowns. I don’t know if there are hiring freezes already in effect, but they’re likely to come soon if doesn’t resolve soon. So don’t let that discourage you. 5) State Universities can take ages to finish hiring someone. It took 2 months once, to go from my first interview to an offer. They didn’t ghost on me, but the paperwork can be hideously inefficient some places.
Munchkin* January 18, 2019 at 10:26 pm That hasn’t been my experience re: #3 – there are definitely the lifers, but at my school people shift around internally a lot. We have about 5000 employees and according to HR each year 600-800 move to a new role internally each year.
Zona the Great* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am I’ve been asking AAMers what they think of some incidents from my past and how they would have handled it. One is from when I worked at a drive-up only satellite branch of a bank. I was a full-time employee, we had one part-time employee and the manager. The way the schedule worked out, the manager or I would have to take a 2 hour lunch at least twice a week in order to ensure someone was there at open and close as the part-timer didn’t have the clearance to do so. I don’t want to explain this further but trust me that this was truly the only way. However, I lived two towns away (a very very rural area where we had to commute a great distance for work) and the manager lived two blocks from work. She never-ever took the two hour lunch and always required that I did instead. It made my 8 hour work day into almost a twelve hour day when factoring in commutes. She never understood why it bothered me and she never agreed to take it instead. Even when I explained that she could at least go home and take a real break, she simply suggested I just go window shopping at the local malls. When her boss stopped by, and with me in the same room, she said to him, “She gets so mad when I do this but I don’t understand what the big deal is. She’s getting paid for an 8 hour day regardless” as if she really didn’t see the issue. So, AAM, what do you all think of this practice? Would you have pushed back? Would it have upset you? Would you have managed this way?
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm If explaining that going home is not an option for you I would have dealt. I would not go home. Workout, read, nap, catch up on Netflix. Schedule appts during this time. I used to sit in my car and soak up the sun listening to music. She thinks she’s giving you a great perk. It is if you find things to do. Useless if you can’t go home easily! I would have loved doing this. She may not have been comfortable leaving the office without a manager for that long. Who knows? You could have pushed back, but I think you did without success. Managing this way? It depends upon her reasons. Personally, if I was ok leaving my staff for 2 hours, I would. Especially being that close to home. I can get a lot done in 2 hours! Unless my kids were home with a sitter. I would definitely have listened to your objections. But if I had clear reasons to stay, I would have done so.
Zona the Great* January 18, 2019 at 1:36 pm So true however, this was about 15 years ago now so those things were not readily available. Great response though and thanks for playing!
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 4:31 pm In your place, nothing could make this work for me. Even if there were a movie theater nearby with a great bathroom (I loathe public restrooms), I would burn out quickly from being on and away from home so long. As the manager, I would add delight in going home for siesta while not forcing two unpaid hours on an employee.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 2:07 pm Look, she knows it was an undesirable set up because she never took it herself! If it were such a lark, she’d have been happy to trade off with you. So yes, I would have pushed back and I’m pretty much astonished that her boss didn’t say something or side with you. You probably weren’t making minimum wage so all of the split shift laws (which seem to be tied to minimum wage in CA where I am) wouldn’t apply but it might have been something to look into back then.
The Vulture* January 18, 2019 at 3:19 pm That sounds really annoying! Every place I’ve worked has one hour lunches and people always wanted to shorten them and leave a half an hour earlier (some were okay with that, others not). But yeah. I love “she’s getting paid for an 8 hour day regardless” YEAH THAT’S THE PROBLEM HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THAT. Also, you have to assume she saw it if she understood the reasons SHE didn’t want to do it (which, I suppose some people are so oblivious they are able to not understand why they don’t want to do something or even that they don’t want to do something, but sheesh). Not sure what you could do about it – I probably would’ve dealt with it, unhappily. Did the boss say anything about that? I’d be so curious to watch his reaction and see if you could get any traction there, but it’s doubtful. It sounds like you pushed back as much as you reasonably could, since the only other person who could do this was your manager, and you can’t make your manager do things.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 4:00 pm Eh, some people you can’t reason with no matter what you do. You could have tried, “Hey that is asking me to work a split shift. People who work splits get compensated for accommodating that split.” I might have found a way to gently say, “You don’t do this, so you must know that I am giving extra here.” I worked one store where the bosses had every other weekend off. I was third key. I worked every single weekend. So what I said was I wanted to have a slice of the pie. I wanted every third weekend off. I was willing to replace each of them in an alternating pattern, if I did not do that then they would not be able to alternate. So I would like some payback for my willingness to cover for them. They agreed. I had every third weekend off. Your boss was a jerk about this.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 4:51 am Yeah, my reaction was also “How long does the break have to be before you’re working a split shift?” I know you say there was no other way to do it, but there’s always another way to do it besides dicking someone over. Like, hiring another employee who had clearance to open and close. Getting the part-timer clearance to open and close. Closing the store earlier. Opening the store later. Or, you know, as the original plan seemed to be, splitting the burden between two people instead of putting it on one person. The truth is that there was only one way to do it that SHE WAS WILLING TO DO and that was the way where you had to pay the whole cost of it instead of her. However, if you were stuck in that job and you wanted to make it work, I my past!recommendation would be: tell her you can only do it if she renovates the break room/store room/some area where you could hang out and relax AS THOUGH you were at home during the extra hours you had to be there.
Triplestep* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am I gave notice this week … weeeeeeeee!!! So what do people think about exit interviews? I got my official invitation for an “on the record” one, plus a form to fill out for an anonymous one. On the one hand, I do have a few things to say that might make a difference to someone at some point, mostly about my manager’s lack of managerial skills, and also about some systemic problems beyond just her. (My one coworker has been asked if he knows anyone who would interview to replace me, and he won’t subject anyone to this place.) On the other hand … Meh, who cares? If it makes a difference, I do not intend to use my manager as a reference … even if she offered, she’s a habitual liar so not to be trusted. I am doing all I can to leave things in good shape, but won’t keep in touch except for maybe a few on Linkedin. (There are some really great people here who I will miss for sure.)
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am When I had my exit interview, I said that I enjoyed my time under GreatBoss. When he retired, my new supervisor was his boss, who didn’t prepare at all for the transition, and when I mentioned her name, HR went “Oh, yeah, that’s why you’re leaving.” So…yeah. They already knew about her management problems and how she was driving the whole office out. Be honest, be distant, be happy you’re getting out.
Zona the Great* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 am I have always held the belief that I should leave a place in a better state than I found it. As long as you are not emotional and vindictive, I recommend taking it seriously and participating fully and honestly.
Windchime* January 18, 2019 at 9:11 pm I have only been invited to one exit interview and I declined. They didn’t care about my concerns regarding rogue managers when I complained months earlier; why would they feel any different now that I’m leaving?
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 7:52 am Because there is a real cost for staff turnover that can be assigned to BadBoss. Exit interviews are to help your soon-to-be-former co-workers.
Someone On-Line* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am Help! I’m getting a promotion! I’m going to become my bosses’ boss, and be managing a group of four, to grow to a group of 11 in about a year’s time. How do I navigate becoming the boss of my boss? I haven’t managed anyone since I was a teenager – what is the best advice you have or books to read (aside from Alison’s, of course, which I’m going to buy over the weekend). Any help is appreciated!
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm I have…never been in this position. Can you give me more context? Why were you promoted over your boss? Does she know? Is it for a rationale reason (e.g., you came in at a lower level but actually have more experience) or because your boss is horrible?
Someone On-Line* January 18, 2019 at 1:32 pm Both? I have more experience, she is not great, I’m the one who has a statewide reputation for what I do. I frequently step in for her and am looked at as the authority. She is lovely but I don’t think she knows she’s not great at what she does. Our grandboss offered me this position. She does not know yet. We’re waiting to tell her until the paperwork goes through.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 1:45 pm Talk to her about it, a week or so after the announcement. As part of a ‘establishing our relationship’ conversation, ask how she feels about it, and what she wants to in her career going forward. Does she want your position eventually? Is there a different direction she wants to go? Then work with her on how she can grow *her* reputation and skills – conferences, giving / getting training, etc. Walk into the meeting with a specific list of opportunities for her, with funding in place. Make sure they’re good ones – if there’s one you’ve done a few times, let her do it (maybe tandem once, then her a few times, then alternating if it’s a really good opportunity). In talking over your transition with your boss, see if there’s a plan for a raise for her within a year. Then follow through with the plans. Someone who’s helping her grow, develop and make more money – it’ll be hard to hold on to any resentment.
Someone On-Line* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm So let’s say we were in state government with no chance of raises?
Tabby Baltimore* January 19, 2019 at 12:08 pm Speaking as a federal worker, I’d suggest you still go with what Jules the 3rd said immediately upthread about having that ‘establishing our relationship’ conversation, but add to it by letting her know what your limits are in terms of providing professional development opportunities. Before you have that conversation with her, you’ll probably need to find out (for example): how much is in your training budget (for both govt-run and vendor-run training)? what is your travel budget (in case she wants to travel as a representative on behalf of your office)? what are your options (guidelines? restrictions?) for supporting her in a temporary or rotational assignment somewhere else in state government (for a limited period, say 6 mos. or 1 yr) to learn a new skill? Does the state agency your office is a part of offer “executive coaching” in any form? Do you know of anyone who functions as her counterpart anywhere else in state govt and who would be willing to mentor her, to help her improve her performance? In addition to all these external resources, I’d suggest you also take some time to reflect carefully on–and write down–what standards you have in mind for “minimally successful,” “successful” and “outstanding” levels of performance in her job, and communicate those to her. She needs to know what these are from the start, so she can meet or exceed your expectations, if she chooses. This is probably going to be not just one, but several conversations. Good luck, and keep us posted with how everyone adjusts.
Hilary Faye* January 18, 2019 at 11:19 am I recently got promoted (yay!) to Manager. I don’t currently have any direct reports but will in the near future and I’m kind of freaking out a little because I have never managed anyone and I want to be a great manager! What advice would you give to a new manager? Things you wish someone had told you? Book recommendations? I’ll take it all!
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am Congrats! I’d start by talking with your manager and getting a clear idea of what authority you have. (For example: if there’s a performance issue, can you give a formal warning in the moment or do you need to go up the chain?) You want to make sure you don’t have to come back to an employee with your tail between your legs because you weren’t authorized to give them extra PTO or write them up or whatever the case may be. Other than that, many new managers are either too nice, because they want to be liked, or too authoritarian, because they want to be respected. It can be hard to find a balance.
Individual Contributor* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm Not a manager but I had to work with a few different managers at Old Job. Something they all did was wait until review time to give me things to improve upon, some of which I already knew and some that surprised me. For example, at my first review, I was told that they wanted to see me join some of the “company committees” they had in place but the problem was, I didn’t know I was supposed to be doing that and nobody gave me any direction as to HOW to join these committees. In truth, there were some that I wanted to join but I didn’t know if I was supposed to be invited to participate or ask someone to invite me? I am getting at making sure that you give these direct reports some clear direction on what your expectations are (and not just at review time!) Some things that I love about my current managers are that they admit when tasks/projects are tough and that makes it so much better that they are realistic. That motivates me to work harder to get over the bumpy parts, such as “Part D of new widget development is tough, I speak from past experience. But we just have to keep chugging along.” I hated the “positive talk” that previous managers try to lay on us such as “well this isn’t ideal but it will be SO much better when we get to the other side” NO. This sucks, just say it.
Triplestep* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm Show an interest in their work by being … well, interested. I am 55 years old and have been in the workforce for more than 30 years. I don’t need “attagirls” from my boss, and I don’t need (or want) her to say “good job!”. She seemed *very* interested when she thought something was going wrong, but showed little interest otherwise.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 1:58 pm – Don’t try to be friends with your team. Be friendly and pleasant, but accept that you should not be on their facebooks / at their bachelor parties / etc. Weddings, ok *if they invite you without pressure*, but you need a little emotional distance in order to see what’s good / bad / ugly. – Do give both positive and negative goals: 100 teapots / day! 0 broken teapots! SMART goals are the best goals. – Make sure you understand your team’s alignment with your company’s strategy, so that you can help your team understand it. eg, “Fine Teapots” competes on a reputation for quality, so managers don’t cut corners and can explain to the team ‘we don’t cut corners because that’s part of our company’s reputation, it helps us compete.’ – If you end up with an established team, listen to them about why they do something a certain way. *Think* about how they do it aligns with company strategy. If you think it needs to change, have a serious reason for it, and listen to their responses. eg, “Adding handles *before* we paint means we cover the handle seam and have more color uniformity! What are the drawbacks to that?” – If you see a problem, address it. You now have standing to do so. Like Not Today, Satan said, start with a convo with your boss on your authority. Maybe even ask if, for the 1st 6 or 12mo, you can ask your boss to critique your perception / solution. – Always bring a solution to the table. You can include a little blame, but focus hardest on how to fix it. – Spend a weekend reading Alison’s book and backlog. I’ve learned a lot. See topics like ‘Being the Boss’ and ‘Workplace Practices’, over in the list of topics on the right hand side of the page. GOOD LUCK…
CM* January 19, 2019 at 5:20 am When I became a manager my biggest fear was that I would abuse my power and make people feel bad. I could write an essay about why that was MY biggest fear specifically, but for now let’s just say it was. Because that was my biggest fear, I spent a lot of time mentally preparing for situations where I might be tempted to test my power on someone or bully someone or what have you, and practicing what I would do or say instead. I also did a mental exercise where I imagined that the situation could be reversed one day, and I tried to figure out what kind of memories I’d want my staff to have about me if they ever became my boss. Like, what would leave them feeling positively disposed toward me? What could I do to build respect between us so that the power differential wouldn’t be a big issue? That kind of thing. FWIW, it worked. I made my fair share of mistakes as a Manager, but none of them had to do with meanly wielding authority over people in the way I was afraid I’d do. You may not have the same worries as me. But I think it might be good to consider what YOUR biggest fear is, and then concentrate on coming up with some strategies to make the opposite happen.
Punk Ass Book Jockey* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am I’m applying for a job that asks for a “resume and work history.” My question is, what’s the difference? I use a chronological format for my resume, including all relevant professional (post-college) work experience. Am I supposed to submit something that lists every job I’ve ever had, even though they aren’t relevant to the position? FWIW, I’ve been in the profession for seven years.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm Usually in these cases, resume showcases the results you’ve achieved and might not be a comprehensive list of all employers. (Example: When you switch careers.) I usually just include my resume but if the applicant system ALSO requests work history, I list my professional employers, title and dates worked for them. At seven years out of school, there’s no reason to include earlier employers.
Red lines with wine* January 18, 2019 at 1:26 pm A resume can omit jobs that aren’t relevant to the position. It seems to me they want your entire work history and to account for any gaps.
TheRedCoat* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am I have my year end review in a few hours, and I need help with scripting, as there are a few things that I feel like I desperately need to address with my manager. 1. I need more 1×1’s. I haven’t had one since my mid year review. I haven’t had a sit down with my boss that was longer than 3 minutes since I got back from maternity leave (in September). 2. I really would like a promotion. The department’s current situation is that you have to already be doing the work of the job that you want before they promote you- for example, I’m an admin, I’d have to be doing a Teapot Specialist 1’s job functions before I could get promoted to that job. I am currently doing the job functions of a Teapot Specialist 2, and it looks like unless one of the level 1’s decides to leave, there is no plan to promote me (or give me a commensurate salary). Also, even if one does leave, they have a tendency to pass me over for promotion and then have me train the person that got the job over me. I’ve asked several times if there is something I should be doing to make myself a stronger applicant for these jobs, but the feedback is vague (“We went with someone with more experience”, but the person literally came from a WILDLY different field without ANY crossover). 3. The whole department is at ‘bitch eating crackers’ level with one of the other admins on my job tier. She’s unteachable, she’s often inappropriate in communications, when feedback is given she will insult the person giving it. My manager is in a position where she doesn’t see it, but everyone just kinda grumbles about the fact that she’s untrainable. This has led to more people being unwilling to give me projects, because we have the same job title (Instead of “Delores is useless” it becomes “The Admins are useless.”) I feel like my end of years review isn’t really the time to bring this up, but see points 1 and 2. I’m kinda at my wits end, tbh.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 2:12 pm Alison’s suggestion re: 2 is usually the script, “Can we develop a timeline for me to be promoted into X position, or get the skills so that when the next X position is open, I’ve got the experience? ” It would help if you had a proposal, like, ‘Job post for X required A, B, C. I’ve done A, B, can I work with Jane on C this month? I’d need to hand off X to have time for that.’ Unfortunately, multiple people’s real life version of this usually ends up with ‘Current job has pigeon holed me for so long that I have to go to a different company to get the title/salary increase that match what I was really doing.’ If the boss is still vague after you ask for specifics / timeline directly, you’re in that spot and have to decide whether to stay or job hunt. #3, your standing is kinda limited, unless you are directly affected by having to do her work. You can bring up ‘I have to redo X, Y for Delores’ but the ‘people don’t give me projects because Delores’ may be too vague and indirect for you to take action. You can get around it by cultivating the people who might give projects. Be explicit – ‘I think people are giving Admins less work than in the past because there’s a perception of the work not being the best, but I’d really like to do a project with you, relieve some workload and show what I can do. What is something you need done?’ Do that with 10% of the people who give projects, and word will get around. Good luck…
periwinkle* January 18, 2019 at 2:24 pm TBH, I think it might be time to move on. 1. You’re doing Teapot Specialist 2-level work 2. You’ve been left in the admin position and passed over for promotion to TS1 roles even though you’re doing TS2 work and are apparently so capable that you’re training the people hired instead of you. 3. Conclusion: They see you as an admin. They will continue to see you as an admin. It might be because of Delores’s performance, it might not, but either way the people you work with do not value admins. This IS something to discuss in your year-end 1:1, assuming it’s longer than 3 minutes. You need concrete information about how to move into the role where you should be. If your manager cannot or will not work with you to develop such a plan, get out. Take your experience and start fresh somewhere where they will see you as TheRedCoat, Kickass Teapot Specialist.
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am GUYS. I advocated for a safety thing and it WORKED. I’m SO EXCITED. The R&D team brought in a chemical that used to be used as a sort of mustard gas during wars. It vaporizes at room temperature and just the vapors will burn your lungs and skin. Water doesn’t wash it off. SO YEAH. I didn’t know because nobody tells me shit, but our chemist approached me about it because he’s sort of terrified of it, and I went to my boss, and now I have it locked away until my boss installs a proper fume hood and brings in some rubber aprons. In less frightening news, we have an office fish now. We didn’t know what else to do with the three foot tall wine glass we had, so we filled it with water and put in a Betta fish. He’s terrified of everything. Spends most of his time hidden underneath his rubber plant. I had to put up a sign so people would stop tapping on the glass. I was afraid they were gonna give the poor guy a heart attack.
No Tribble At All* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am Wow, that gas is terrifying! I’m surprised that the first step is to get fume hoods and PPE – why does R&D need this gas at all? It’s a lethal hazard! I’ve always learned you want to, in order of preference, (1) eliminate the hazard (2) substitute something less dangerous (3) provide engineering controls (I guess that’s fume hoods) (4) change the rules to be safer (5) provide personal protective equipment. You guys need a lab safety officer to take charge of this! Everyone needs to be trained on what chemicals are around, especially if water doesn’t wash it off. When I /visited/ a lab that had hydroflouric acid, they gave us a quick HF training before we were allowed beyond the conference room. You were in a building with a corrosive, hazardous gas and didn’t know about it? I’ve clutched my pearls so hard they’ve all broken. I’m glad you successfully pushed back, but this shows a systemic safety problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm I *am* the safety officer. That’s why I’m annoyed nobody consulted me before ordering this stuff. I’m not taken all that seriously. We don’t actually have a lab, because up until now the nastiest chemical we used was some electronics cleaner, and the worst side effects were dry skin. They want to bubble this stuff through a different stuff and see if they can separate out some gas or something. I’m gonna sit with our chemist and work that out. But we don’t have a fume hood because we’ve never needed one. Anyways, the chemist was freaked out and came to me, so I went to my boss and we’re gonna put in a fume hood, and maybe restrict access to the lab to just a small handful of people. We have a keycard system at least. And the scary chemical is in heavy duty hazmat packaging and locked away.
No Tribble At All* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm Thanks for clarifying — I shouldn’t have assumed what your role was. I’m extra glad the chemist came to you then! That’s frustrating that no one listens to you. Sounds like it’s time for terrifying workplace safety videos to scare them into shape.
Animal worker* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm Please consider finding a more appropriate home for the fish. I hate the way that beta fish tend to be kept in general and why it’s considered OK. And in this case you’re also saying he’s obviously stressed. Please, please, please find him a better home. This is not an ornament, he’s a living breathing being that deserves a decent life. And kudos on advocating successfully for safety.
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm I tried. Nobody cares, I have no authority. He’s a lot less stressed now that people aren’t tapping on his glass anymore. He actually came out of hiding and is swimming around a bit. His tank is actually pretty huge, I just think we maybe need to add to it a bit.
Eden* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm To add to this, beta fish like really need filtered, heated water (they prefer temperatures of around 25 deg C or 80F), so if you could add a (gentle!) filter to his tank and a little heater, he would greatly appreciate it. [Also, I am a chemist, and the other situation sounds horrifying! Getting a fume hood installed is no small feat, either!]
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm I’ll see what I can get. Poor little guy. Maybe a hidey cave or something so he’s not digging under the plant when he’s nervous. We have an explosion proof ventilation system, so my boss figured we can just add a hose and a little oven hood type thing to help suck up any fumes. Fortunately it’s a very small amount, but it should say something that that tiny vial showed up in an enormous box containing a heavy duty metal cylinder that can’t be opened without cutting tools.
Lora* January 19, 2019 at 6:59 am Nooooo. Am Chem Eng. There are required numbers of air room changes, face velocity requirements, etc that must be adhered to, in addition to materials compatibility issues with the chemical you describe (such as corrosion through the wall of the ducting or in the blowers). A regular oven hood is not going to cut it and will definitely not be compliant. You need a real engineer and QA/regulatory type person with experience handling this type of material to consult and tell you what is needed to be safe. It sounds like your boss doesn’t know his ass from his elbow here and someone could get badly hurt.
Headshrinker Extraordinaire* January 18, 2019 at 2:15 pm If your office is going to have a fish, please make sure it’s properly cared for. There are a lot of misconceptions about how to care for Bettas, and that leads to fish suffering through miserable short lives. Webpages like https://bettafish.org/care/ might help.
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 3:13 pm We’re pretty close, actually. It’s a big space and he’s all alone, the lights go out at night and he’s away from the sun. We haven’t been feeding him much. I’ll look into getting a filter though, I don’t think anyone is gonna be willing to change the water every week. Maybe some sort of mesh over top too, I didn’t realize they jump.
soupmonger* January 18, 2019 at 4:47 pm Please read up on tropical fish! Bettas need clean, heated water and a tropical tank needs a bacterial filtration system. If you can’t provide this, please find another person to look after the fish.
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 5:58 pm I’ll try but it’s not my call or my fish. It’s my boss’s fish.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 8:51 am We had ours in a 3 gallon tank and he learned to take recently-slapped mosquitoes from our hand. Made for messier tank but it was so worth it.
Yes, I Am A Rocket Scientist* January 18, 2019 at 9:55 pm You need a lot more than a fume hood and rubber aprons to work with such a hazardous chemical. You need a thoroughly documented test procedure which includes not only precautions to take but an emergency response plan if something goes wrong. I still have scars on my hand from working with a close relative of mustard gas when I was working in a college research lab 40 years ago. Got huge, painful blisters from spilling a small amount on my hand because the lab didn’t even have gloves available.
valentine* January 18, 2019 at 11:22 am If all worked hours must be paid, why the FSA loophole? Why not tax the unused amount and stick it in the last paycheck of the year?
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 am I’m not sure what you mean by “FSA loophole”–can you explain? It doesn’t change what you get paid any more than contributing to a 401k does–it’s just that you’ve chosen to take a particular action with your pay. Your second sentence seems to be about the “use it or lose it” rule, and I think the answer is “because that’s really complicated on the budget and they don’t have to.”
Natalie* January 18, 2019 at 1:22 pm If I recall my tax class correctly, the “use it or lose it” feature is actually a legal requirement – in order to be a cafeteria plan, you have to allow the employee to chose between cash or the benefit, so if they chose the benefit they can’t later get some of it back in cash.
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 1:42 pm Ah, I didn’t realize it was outright forbidden by the law; thanks.
valentine* January 18, 2019 at 8:30 pm I don’t see why either case should result in forfeited pay and it’s easier to use up a cafeteria plan, especially if you can buy meals for others or buy food to go.
Natalie* January 19, 2019 at 9:59 am “Cafeteria plan” is a name for the specific category of tax exempt benefits, it’s not literally a plan to buy meals in the cafeteria.
Natalie* January 18, 2019 at 12:07 pm An FSA is a type of “cafeteria plan” and subject to the rules for that type of plan, but you’re basically asking “why tax policy?” and that’s a question with no clear answers.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm Because you can’t move back and forth between Taxable vs Non Taxable. If they tack it on year end, it nullifies the non taxable portion and you owe back taxes. It’s that way to prevent abuse of the system.
Sara* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I am currently very worried about my job, which is working on the finance side of lottery tickets sold online. With the recent DOJ ruling about online gambling, I am pretty sure that the main part of my job is in jeopardy. I don’t think they’d get rid of me( at least not right away), but I was hired to work with growing online sales and not the regular retail lottery tickets. Everyone is saying not to panic/worry, but that’s not really my nature! Its making me really anxious today since everything is so new.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:49 pm You very well might lose your job or be transferred. Now you know that’s a risk. So, what ACTION can you take: – Talk to your manager and ask their opinion. “Susan, Do you see my role changing or being eliminated as a result of recent DOJ ruling? Should I think differently about my work?” – Spend some time updating your resume so it’s current. Then keep doing good work and look for signs/confirmation from your employer. (I’ve been laid off from four jobs in my 16 year career and two I saw coming/expected it to happen even before the organization made any decisions. Prepare but don’t panic.) One of my favorite quotes: Don’t worry about the future; or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind. The kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday.
Free Meerkats* January 18, 2019 at 11:24 am I’ve started moving office from the cube where I’ve been since 1991 to my former boss’s office. I didn’t get the promotion yet, but have been told the Lead assignment may last until retirement. But that’s another letter… There is So. Much. Stuff. that I look at and say to myself, “Self, why did you keep this?”
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 11:57 am I did a pretty big office purge a couple of years ago and need to have another go. I wouldn’t be able to get it done in time if I did have to move, so I need to be prepared. But yeah, there’s some formula of accrual x years that’s really impressive.
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 1:04 pm I think that is about how long my mom has been in her cube. Her company has been bought and sold multiple times and has no back office function locally except my mom, so she could have had her pick of several offices or other cubes for the last 10 yrs, but she has stayed put. She plans to retire sometime this year, after 32 years. Meanwhile, I get re-co-located annually and only have one box of junk left, and I’m not even sure why I have half the things in there (promotional koozis? multiple schedule wheels?). I do have a ton of digital clutter for past projects, though.
Free Meerkats* January 18, 2019 at 1:51 pm And then there are the things that bring good memories. Like the note I found from my first wife. She was a wildlife illustrator, so the pen-and-ink hawk and the white board with the drawing of a bat with a fringed tongue that I’ve protected with a plastic cover will be moving with me.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 9:01 am I hear you! I recently moved to a standard cubicle from a significantly bigger one. (Years ago we’d lost staff not paper-based workload so 4 cubes were shuffled to become 3.) I’ve been cutting down my paper for years and still found myself tossing old stuff. I brought home two cartons of personal items I’d brought in one at a time. And the one file drawer that survived my purge? I’ve found myself going through it again since then. Now I hope I can channel that habit at home!
aeldest* January 18, 2019 at 11:25 am So I pulled a real bonehead move and would love some advice on how to tell my boss. TL;DR I lost my ID before a return flight on a work trip, how do I tell my boss we need to show up early to the airport I am currently at an out-of-state work conference with my boss and a coworker. We had a couple hours between meetings, so I took a walk along the beach behind our hotel. It was great! Until I got back to my hotel room and realized I lost my ID…. I went out last night with a flashlight to look for it and couldn’t find it, I’m going to look again this afternoon when we have a break, and I’m going to call all the hotels I walked behind to see if it has been turned in, but honestly it’s a long shot. After frantic googling it looks like I’ll be fine to get on the plane, because I do have a lot of stuff confirming my identity (credit cards, debit cards, old school ID which has a photo), but the TSA recommends arriving much earlier because there’s a whole process. How do I tell my boss “hey, sorry but y’all will have to wake up and leave like an hour early because I did something dumb”? I know it will reflect badly on me regardless, I just want to mitigate that as much as possible.
AdAgencyChick* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am Is it an absolute necessity that all of you take the same transport to the airport? I would just frame it to your boss as, “This is terrible timing, but my driver’s license seems to have gone missing — I’m going to need to leave for the airport earlier than you and Sansa, so I’ll see you there.” I mean…losing an ID happens to the best of us. If I were the boss in this situation I wouldn’t think anything of taking two cars to the airport. Maybe different if you’re in academia/nonprofit.
aeldest* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am We rented a car and are over an hour drive from the airport, so unfortunately we all have to go together. Maybe I’m overthinking. I just worry I’m going to seem really irresponsible, and like I’m making my problem their problem.
Arielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm Ah, I feel like that makes it a little easier! Usually when I rent a car you have to leave lots of extra time for returning it, taking the shuttle back to the airport, etc. Maybe they could drop you at the terminal so you could use that extra time to get your ID sorted out while they return the car?
OhBehave* January 18, 2019 at 1:08 pm Well it was irresponsible but it happens to everyone! An hour is no big deal. You have no choice but to all go early. Once you have thoroughly searched and found it is truly gone, fess up. “My ID has gone missing. So as not to miss the flight, I need to leave earlier to give us enough time. I apologize for this.” Chances are, they will tell you similar stories! One colleague, who travels extensively, brought an expired passport. Oops!
TheRedCoat* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am Can you uber to get there early and then explain? Something like “Hey, I lost my ID on the beach- what a mess! I’ll meet you all at the gate, I will need to get there a good bit early so I can get through TSA without it.”?
aeldest* January 18, 2019 at 12:05 pm We rented a car and are over an hour drive from the airport, so unfortunately we all have to go together.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 2:14 pm Are you the only driver on the rental car though? Because just because you are sharing a car doesn’t mean you can’t personally make other arrangements – Uber, Lyft, public transport. Sure, you can’t take the rental car but you can leave it for them and make other arrangements for yourself.
Yvette* January 18, 2019 at 4:06 pm Since this is kind of on you, would it be very cost prohibitive to rent a car on your own and take that?
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm On a recent business trip, just me and my boss, I had a customs issue and needed– well, wanted, rather– to get to the airport extra early. My boss is a very frequent business traveler, to the point where he kind of teases people who get to the airport too early and do things like (gasp!) check bags. So when this issue came up (a very long story), I informed him about it but told him I would go to the airport separately and meet him at the gate, all that good stuff, so as not to inconvenience him. Up until the night before we left, that was the plan, then he just decided to go early with me and get an extra breakfast. Your situation is different for sure, as we weren’t an hour away and there was no rental car. But I do think that people are understanding in these situations and willing to manage the inconvenience. This isn’t something you do every day. If your boss is a reasonable person, they will understand that this falls under the “stuff happens” category heading. Also: if you haven’t already, check your pockets and your wallet for your ID, or wherever you usually keep it. Unless you’re absolutely sure you had it with you, you might have just forgotten to take it when you went to the beach. Or you could do what I have done, which is put it in the “wrong” part of my wallet and finally realizing that it’s behind the company credit card after hours of looking. No matter what, good luck! That’s a very fluster-inducing thing, but you are not alone and it will be ok.
Jb from Norway (formerly an OP5)* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm Second all the advice below and really, this isn’t a big deal. Things happen and it doesn’t make you look irresponsible. You could also post it as a question to your boss, “Susan, I’ve misplaced my ID and need to get to the airport earlier than usually to ensure I can get through TSA with my other forms of ID. Since we drove together, that will mean we need to leave together a couple hours earlier than expected, or I can take an Uber but recognize that could be a costly expensive since we’re an hour away. Which do you prefer?”
CM* January 19, 2019 at 5:31 am I know I’m super late, but: this. I would present it like “Here’s what my situation is, now we have to discuss whether/how it affects you.” As in, do you still want to take the same car or split up?” I wouldn’t present it like “Guess what, you have to drive me to the airport!” because she might choose that solution but she doesn’t have to.
Nessun* January 18, 2019 at 3:08 pm Considering I got to watch this unfold when two colleagues were traveling and one lost her ID (I got calls about what could be done, what airlines would take what, how to plan for a hotel if needed, since the trip was 2 flights with a stopover)…yeah, it happens. The most important thing is to be up front with your boss – as soon as possible, explain what happened. It could happen to anyone, and you’ve already taken steps for your flight, so let them know what options there are and what decision has to be made: either everyone gets up earlier to share the rental car, or some sort of Uber/taxi needs to be sorted for you (and presumably expensed). Good luck!
Bagpuss* January 18, 2019 at 4:23 pm I think you are probably overthinking it. Do look for it, but if you can’t find it, tell your boss sooner rather than later – keep it straightforward, apologise (once) for the inconvenience but don’t beat yourself up. Stuff happens. You could ask whether they want you to get a cab to the airport rather than going with them in the car, or ask if they are OK to drop you then take the car back, but don’t call yourself dumb – it doesn’t sound as though you did anything unusual or stupid, or were particularly careless, so don’t tell yourself, or your boss, that you were.
BeenThere* January 19, 2019 at 8:30 am I lost my id during a recent move and have had to travel for work before getting a replacement. Bring all the stuff to confirm your identity with you and just kindly let the TSA agent know you lost your id. They’ll do a full pat down and search your carry ons, but each time for me was no more than 20 minutes in the security area. With the government shutdown, arriving early is a good idea anyway.
Can't Sit Still* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am My role has been divided in three! Interviews start next week. I am so excited! This is not normally a role where a company would be hiring two people at the same time, though, so I’m hoping it doesn’t look like a red flag. I have to say, though, a bad cover letter is worse than no cover letter at all. I have seen some atrocious ones lately. My personal favorite this time: I’ve never done this job before, but I just know I’d be great at it. (The applicant does not provide any relevant experience or examples that demonstrates this.) I have seen some strong resumes, though, and I hope they continue to be strong candidates through the interview process.
How much to trust your gut in taking a new job?* January 18, 2019 at 11:26 am To say I’m unhappy in my current position would be a huge understatement. I’ve been here two years, thought I was getting my “dream job” and it turned out to be a complete nightmare. I started looking for work last September. Now I have an opportunity elsewhere for a decent looking position. No offer yet, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to get one. The position would be a step down in terms of responsibilities, pay, and PTO, but a better title and (hopefully) improved quality of life. I should be excited! The thing is, something just doesn’t feel right to me about the whole thing. There have been a lot of small things about their hiring process and communications that make me uncomfortable. No giant screaming red flags, just a string of modestly rude or disorganized seeming behavior. I tried to get in touch with some former employees in the division I’d be working with to ask about the working environment (people who are friends of friends) without success. My friends say I’m making a big deal out of minor issues, and I shouldn’t write them off over things like (one example) them asking me to come in for an interview on less than 24 hours notice. I’m afraid of jumping from one environment where I’m miserable to another. What say ye, commenters? How much of a role for “I just have a bad feeling about this” should there be in evaluating a new position? Am I being smart and cautious? Or overly paranoid because of how bad things have gone with my current job?
Anoncorporate* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am I think a lot of the things you mentioned would be red flags for me. If these are things you are already noticing in interview stages, it will probably 10x worse actually working with them day to day. I would also be reluctant to chance a pay cut for this. I don’t want to tell you exactly what to do, but I’m all for trusting your gut.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am How much did you screen THEM? Talking about things like: the work environment (watch the body language when they answer), circumstances under which the prior employee left the job (promoted, quit, etc.), how long did the prior employee perform this job (months? years?), turnover rate (dept, and company), what is the company culture like (ask for examples)?, how does your potential boss support his reports? what motivates the interviewer in their job? Do they like their job? What do the C-suite folks talk about when they talk to the rank and file? How do the employees communicate with each other? How do the supervisors interact and communicate with their reports? Ask them what “work-life balance” means. The less than 24 hour notice for an interview isn’t a big deal if this is a small company. This rush may just be their wanting to get the position filled as quickly as possible. They may not realize candidates like to have adequate time to prepare for an interview. This would also account for some disorganization if they don’t hire very often.
Trust my gut?* January 18, 2019 at 11:55 am Not a small company. 1000+ employees in a regulated and typically bureaucratic industry. It’s a small team (5 people with a specialized function) housed within the office of the Big Boss. They took six months to fill their last opening (I know because I applied for it. After not hiring me for that position they are recruiting me for this new one, replacing a team member who has been promoted within the org). When I met with my would-be peers in my last round of interviews, they seemed genuinely positive about the working environment. However, one of them posted a 1 star Glassdoor review a month later which makes me wonder how honest they were during that conversation.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 12:49 pm How scathing was the 1 star review? Sounds like they may have their issues. Question is, will they be issues that affect you a great deal?
Trust my gut?* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm Not a lot of detail. One star, doesn’t recommend, negative outlook, neutral opinion of CEO. “Pros: Flexibility with schedule, and good benefits Cons: Poor work environment, lack of leadership”
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 1:37 pm I like Not Today Satan’s suggestion of getting a gander at the employee manual. Is there opportunity to find out about this “lack of leadership”? That could be the fault of one bad supervisor, or it could be a company-wide malady. It could also be someone who felt that the company is going in the wrong direction (i.e. a subjective assessment). Maybe the author of this review wanted something this company wasn’t interested in providing- they wanted to be groomed for management but the company liked how well they painted the teapots. The job opened up because of a promotion within. That’s says that at least one person felt it was worthwhile to stay. Can you ask to speak to this person? Tell them you want to get insight on how they did the job so that you can do your best performance. Slip in a few questions about how they view the work environment. Promotion from within also says that -to some degree- they value the employees.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm If you get an offer, see if you can take a tour (miserable or chaotic offices are easy to spot) and look at their employee handbook (are they generous/easygoing are is the handbook full of draconian, micromanaging policies?).
Alianora* January 18, 2019 at 2:43 pm I say trust your gut. Every time I’ve felt uncomfortable about someone’s initial communication methods but shrugged it off and gave them the benefit of the doubt, I’ve regretted it. Other small things like forgetting my name are often okay, but if they’re bad at communicating and disorganized I treat that as a red flag. Interviewing on short notice is understandable in some circumstances, but if there are a lot of other things making you uncomfortable then there’s a reason for that.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:02 pm I’m usually pro-follow your gut. But so many people’s gut is so high-alert that I’m not going with the grain here. I’ve known plenty of places that are a little disorganized in hiring and like to get people in ASAP, they’re worried you’re going to find a new job somewhere else, they want to get you in their office ASAP to get their hat in the ring! We ask people for interviews the next day but make it clear that we understand that’s not always possible, etc. It’s to show our intense interest in them, not to scare them away. Hiring tends to be long and drawn out or kind of chaotic and messy I’ve seen. It’s not usually a really great streamline, especially if you don’t have to do it that often, if your turnover it low. I’ve had some hiccups with hiring that probably trigger as somewhat chaotic and I do make it clear at those times that we hire infrequently and apologize for any weird glitches along the way, etc. We’re all humans in the hiring process and the bumpy ride going in isn’t to say we’re a place of utter turbulence. We have really low turnover rate for the most part for that reason, once someone takes a chance on us, they love it here. I know I do. I didn’t like our interview process when I went through it either because it’s this mix of bigger company formality and just a quick “we want to hire someone quickly and won’t drag this out for multiple screenings and weeks on end.”
BookPony* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Do any fellow autistics have any tips/tricks on workplace things? E.g. it took me forever to realize “thank you for bringing this to my attention” did not actually mean that person was happy I told them. Just things of that nature that might be useful for me and others lol.
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm From my visiting father, ask people to just write things down. He survived that for twenty years in the workplace before my mom started researching autism and starting suspecting she might have not just fallen in love with a weird nerd like she always thought.
Alianora* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm Hmm. I’ve said “thank you for bringing this to my attention” and I genuinely am grateful to the person who told me, just not happy about the situation.
Lilysparrow* January 18, 2019 at 8:44 pm I don’t know about you, but I usually use slightly different wording if I’m really expressing gratitude, tho. Something more casual like, “I’m so glad you told me.” The wording as given is quite old-fashioned and formulaic, which tends to indicate that it’s a brush-off, like a form letter response.
Alianora* January 19, 2019 at 10:40 am I guess that’s a good point. It’s usually more like “Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention” if I need to be formal (which I often do). But I did used to manage my department’s email inbox and probably wrote “Thank you for bringing this to our attention” verbatim a bunch of times (because we had email templates we had to use) and I still honestly did mean it.
Asperger Hare* January 19, 2019 at 11:10 am Meeting new people: make quick, subtle notes on their name and appearance, so that you can recall this later. Lots of office politics is complicated. It is just as important to have regular pleasantries and polite social interaction with others as it is to perform your job accurately and efficiently. I found this frustrating at first, mostly thinking, “I just want to get on with my job!” But after I while I recognised it as part of my job and part of being successful in a work environment, so now I just think of it as just another task I must complete in order to do well at work.
Countess Boochie Flagrante* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Tax season fistbumps for all the finance folks out there! Hope you’re all staying sane so far.
Merci Dee* January 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm I am so glad I got out of public accounting and into industry. Now the only things I have to worry about during tax season is preparing 1099-MISC forms for about 35 qualifying vendors.
Où est la bibliothèque?* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am My organization just promoted someone from within–which is great! We were all pulling for him. But…they interviewed 6 other people for the role, even after a lot of casual acknowledgement that the job was his. So he was in limbo for weeks, and all of us felt really apprehensive, because if he didn’t get the job he would be pretty crushed and all of us would be really frustrated. And it meant everyone on the team, myself included, was involved in every interview–between interviews, reviewing resumes and discussions after each one I probably wasted about 8 hours. And now we have to go through the whole process again for a replacement for his current role. Am I wrong in thinking this was nuts?
Pharmgirl* January 18, 2019 at 11:27 am Any other pharmacists out there? I work for a mail order pharmacy, and my employer is asking me to consider additional state licensure. What would be appropriate compensation to request? Is there anything specific I should take into consideration – renewal fees, continuing ed., etc? The states in question are West Virginia and Nebraska. Thanks!
PharmReply* January 18, 2019 at 4:15 pm Fellow pharmacist here! My current job pays my licensing fees as well as for 1 or more conference a year. I think it would be reasonable to at least ask for that as baseline. Including conferences – multiple states means multiple CE requirements! I would also probably ask for them to pay for the law exam (I assume you don’t need to retake NAPLEX). That’s all minimum. If I got all that covered I might wait until my next review to ask for a raise, but I’m also a relatively new grad, so idk if that’s not aggressive enough. I’d also look into if you new state license would mean that you do more specialty or LDD work. Bc if so you can argue that you’re a subject matter expert in an expensive area of medicine.
I Work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am Welcome to another recounting of yet another week on the Hellmouth! Let’s dive right in: This Monday I came in to find my desk and office furniture drastically rearranged, and the contents of every drawer “reorganized”. My post-it notes—vanished, my poor snacks and tampons were violated yet again, and I no longer have a place where I can secure my purse and keys. Which is kind of a thing I need, so… not great. I guess I’ll start locking my purse in my car and just always keeping my keys on me? Also, due to the new positioning of my desk and chair I can not see anyone who is walking into the office. Like, a cyborg with flamethrower arms—that are AFLAME—could easily walk in to the office and I would have no idea until the rounded towards my door. This is problematic for a number of reasons. Interestingly, the hidden camera/microphone combo has also vanished. I saw it in a jumble of wires in my manager’s office. Has she given up? Has it been replaced with something better hidden and more discreet? No clue. I am proceeding with as much caution as I can muster. The rest of the week has kind of been a blur. My remaining leasing consultant is still being freaked out by all of the presents that my boss keeps showering him with (this week he got a pretty cool knit blazer with the company logo on it). The War on Children has continued, as my boss is (selectively) enforcing a new rule where you must be 18 or older to be in the business center/computer room. Since a lot of kids use the business center to work on their homework there is an extra layer of meanness at play. My boss has also been insisting on letting SOME people pay rent without having to include fees while not extending that option to others, which is 1) extremely not cool, 2) is an FFH issue just waiting to bite all of us, and 3) has been causing me a looooot of stress. A new leasing consultant was hired, although my boss tried to hide the fact that she hired her for a few days, which was weird. We knew because Newbie kept calling to check on company policy and stuff while my boss was out of the office, but my boss (who did not know this) The woman seems very nice, although she also was a resident of my boss at a previous property and they seem to be trying to cover up the fact that they know each other/are friends. She starts in two weeks. We also have had our regional VP with us since Wednesday. She held a meeting where she told us (among other things) that we are never allowed to use post-its and must instead utilize the single legal pad that she is going to allow us to have on our desks (I guess I’m going to have to get a doctor’s note, since I have pretty severe ADHD and actually need to use post-its to stay organized and on track), that we need to do something to balance all of the negative reviews that have gone up namechecking my boss (“lie and tell people that you need them to put up a positive review to help you win a contest if you have to”), that I am required to pull and scrub delinquency reports no less than 3 times a week and she wants to see it happening more, and also that moving forward I will only have seven days to complete some very overwhelming recurring tasks that I used to have 30 days to complete. Fun stuff! And because it wouldn’t be the Hellmouth without SOME kind of weirdness, we have a family reporting a wall full of (live) squirrels, although my boss is skeptical. Oh! Also, a resident is angrily insisting there is a pervasive poop smell in his apartment, AND we have a kind of poopish aroma surrounding the outside of the office that my boss and the VP are in denial about. And my boss is faking a limp. No movement on the job hunt front, but I’m still hopeful! Really hoping that the company that I’m most interested in gets back to me about interviewing this afternoon, but I know that their HR department is slammed with some big projects right now.
I Work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 am Whoops! Some serious formatting issues and a few garbled sentences there. Sorry, ya’ll, I’ll try to proof better next time.
Bee's Knees* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am She’s not faking a limp. Some of her cyborg/alien/wasp parts have malfunctioned, and she has to perform a ritual to get it to start working again, and hasn’t gotten to it yet. Maybe Newbie is a witch. Ooh, no. Boss is going to suck the soul of that guy she keeps giving presents to, or use him as a donor for demon spawn. Beware.
froodle* January 18, 2019 at 2:21 pm She’ll put the wasp eggs in the place where his soul used to be and the larvae will chew their way out once they hatch. The “blazer” is just a nice insulated roof on the wasp babies new home.
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm Oh! Another new rule: I must have the blinds to the full length windows behind my desk open at all times. I am not allowed to close them, even after it gets dark outside. I’ve already had three people walk up to the window and start banging on them since this rule went into effect.
Karen from Finance* January 18, 2019 at 2:05 pm This is starting to confirm to me your previous suspicion that they’re actively trying to get you to quit.
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 2:25 pm Yeah, that was my thought. Heh, little does she know, no further actions are required, I’m out as soon as another job is lined up! I do wonder if maybe she’s wanting to scoot her new hire/friend into my role, though.
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 12:35 pm If it were me, I’d find a way to anonymously report the FFH issue. If something happened that affected your job you could hopefully get unemployment while you looked. I definitely understand the needing a paycheck, and a lot of what you’re dealing negatively affects you vs. others, but for things that hurt residents I’d be hoping to find a way to have them held accountable. I know there’s no easy answer here, so no judgment, but I hope that you can not only get out but help the others being hurt here.
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 1:00 pm The problem is that she is very careful to put nothing in writing and she also has the people under her process payments and paperwork and the like, so you couldn’t directly pin things on her—and a lot of the stuff that makes me super uncomfortable is kind of nebulous/difficult to report. The office is also so small that it’s difficult to remain anonymous. I do have a notebook where I keep track of everything, so I’m hoping to be able to quietly pass some info along after I leave (which will hopefully be sooner rather than later).
Nita* January 18, 2019 at 12:46 pm So much craziness (as usual). Really hoping that you’ll get some good news on the job hunt soon.
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 1:28 pm ASK NOT FOR WHOM THE SQUIRREL SQUEAKS, THE SQUIRREL SQUEAKS FOR YOU.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 12:02 pm Squirrels? Obviously they’re getting ready for Squirrel Appreciation Day on January 21. It’s on national day calendar dot com so it’s real, right?
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 2:38 pm “we are never allowed to use post-its” Whaaaaat? “my boss is faking a limp” Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 3:15 pm 1) Apparently post-its “represent the company poorly” and “look unprofessional.” 2) When she remembers to, or when certain people are around. The going theory is that she’s going to claim she’s at physical therapy the next few times she disappears for 4-5 hours (a thing that happens semi-regularly).
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm At first I thought maybe she was interviewing at other places, then my mom thought she was Christmas shopping a lot. Now I have no idea.
Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD* January 18, 2019 at 2:40 pm What is it with this place and squirrels in the walls? Who knew that the guardians of the hellmouth had fuzzy tails
I Work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 4:07 pm An update to this week at the Hellmouth: My boss disappeared for two hours to go and get a birthday cake for our new maintenance supervisor, then called everyone in to the conference room to surprise him with it. As we were eating cake, she started asking everyone to tell stories about the “baddest thing their kids have ever done.” Long story short, I now know how many people the maintenance supervisor’s daughter had premarital sex with. WHY? WHY? WHAT IS WRONG WITH EVERYONE HERE? Also, the air coming out of the vent in my office right now smells distinctly of pee, and my boss is insisting that I am imagining it. But I promise, guys, it smells like a really unclean public restroom.
Karen from Finance* January 18, 2019 at 4:24 pm So now there’s pee smell AS WELL AS the faint poo smell? What is wrong with these people?
I work on a Hellmouth* January 18, 2019 at 5:28 pm I don’t know. But I also just had a conversation with a guy who had to return to a faraway state about a week after he moved in because HE TOOK HIS TINY DAUGHTER OVER STATE LINES WITHOUT HER MOTHER’S KNOWLEDGE OR PERMISSION, and failed to contact us or pay rent or anything for the two months that followed. He just called to see about settling his balance because he wanted to return to the apartment. He was shocked and angered to learn he had been evicted. Nothing here is normal.
Indie* January 20, 2019 at 7:09 am Surely it was more tempting for him to say “my daughters would change the position of the blinds in their offices at times and one of them is addicted to Post Its?”
Office Gumby* January 19, 2019 at 11:03 pm I look forward to your weekly updates and will miss them after you escape (may it be soon).
Indie* January 20, 2019 at 7:21 am I used to keep a mirrored picture frame on my desk when I sat with a doorway to hell behind me. That, and a shiny chrome vase, would have allerted me to anything fiery approaching me from behind. However since your desk is subject to random cell tossings, you might want to go with something small that you can slip into your handbag/bra/shoe/hidden travellers wallet. You can make regular checks behind you with a compact mirror, or you could use those small sticky rear view mirrors that driving instructors use. Or you know, set up one of those laser-alarm trip lines around the perimeter. Or just crouch under your desk and do a meerkat-lookout manouevre occasionally? Just blame the squirrels if anyone asks.
Holla* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am I have concluded I do not like managing people. Shame, now that I’m a manager. My anxiety is piqued. I have a hard enough time managing my interactions with people on a personal level. The weirdness and oddity of human personality is even more daunting on a professional one. I have to deal with an employee who is oversensitive to feedback and frequently cries, while another just talks about his previous experience (50% of the time it’s slightly relevant, the rest is useless information) or is just super random. I can’t tell if I’m being oversensitive because I don’t talk to coworkers I’ve never met before about borrowing the nerf gun that is sitting on their desk when they’re on vacation.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:29 am Seeking advice from other IT people, especially those that do routine patching/upgrading/installations… So I’ve taken over the infrastructure support on my team for a particular product suite. This involves middleware patching, upgrading, and installations, typically in a Linux environment. I feel like every single time I try to do a patch or an upgrade, something borks. My SSL configuration won’t work…the patch didn’t apply correctly…one of the services is throwing a weird error I’ve never seen before…. So just when I think it’s FINALLY wrapped up, some other issue occurs, and I have to tell my boss and team that no, it’s not done, I just encountered THIS issue. This makes me feel like a failure. I’m new to this side of IT, so I have been given pretty low stakes infrastructure stuff to do. In some cases, it hampers the team’s ability to get work done (like when I had a problem with SSL configuration – couldn’t log into the application if it’s not secured). I knew ZERO about Linux and this kind of work prior to this job, and I’ve been here for 2 years. I don’t do this exclusively – I have a lot of other types of work – so I haven’t done too many patches/upgrades/etc so far. But I still feel like I should “get it” by now. Like I should have this process down and should not be experiencing problems. The question: how long did it take you in your area to finally get to a point where you don’t just totally screw up your work every time you do it? If it helps, I’m working on Oracle middleware products. Thanks!
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am I should add that whenever I do these types of tasks, I make sure I have all my documentation ready, a task checklist, and I’ll do “dry run” to make sure I know where all my directories and files are. I’ve done about 5 of these types of tasks in total so far.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:00 pm A lot of the best learning I’ve done in IT has been in screwing something up and then fixing it. It does get better. There has to be room to fail a bit without huge repercussions (unless you’ve lost your company millions of dollars), but you also do learn after a while how to fail a little less often or how to recover more quickly from failures.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am Definitely been there, Catsaber. What I’d recommend is trying to get a test Linux server (preferably a VM, but it could even be bare metal) that is as close to the same config as possible that’s on the production Linux server. Try out patches on the test server before you do them on the production server. And always, always, always have backups, so you can restore things back to the way they were, in case the upgrade seems to have gone fine on the test one but then somehow screws up production. You don’t want to be like a lot of Windows shops I see that leave huge vulnerabilities unpatched because they’re too afraid of breaking things, and then the servers stay unpatched for years. Break and fix. But test, test, and test, and back up and restore. Don’t break without having a fallback.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 2:26 pm Fortunately I haven’t done the REAL production servers yet. :) My biggest issue right now is I’m trying to upgrade an application on a development box – but a team of business analysts use it for their daily work, so any problems I run into halts their work. I tried to get a clone of this environment for testing but for various reasons, we weren’t able to do that. Thanks for the support, it’s just frustrating because this is exactly the job I want to be doing, but I feel like I’m just failing over and over. My boss and department have been happy with me thus far, and I get good reviews, but I feel like the goodwill is going to run out at some point. “You don’t want to be like a lot of Windows shops I see that leave huge vulnerabilities unpatched because they’re too afraid of breaking things, and then the servers stay unpatched for years.” — welcome to higher education IT!
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 3:29 pm They may not be calling it a “REAL production server,” but if they’re using it for their daily work, it’s de facto production. I tried to get a clone of this environment for testing but for various reasons, we weren’t able to do that. Ideally, that’s not the case, but I know plenty of places that it is. welcome to higher education IT! If only it were just higher ed. I think those unpatched Windows servers are everywhere.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 4:41 pm Oh yes, the de factor production “dev” server is an issue unto itself. I totally agree we should have a clone of that sucker that is NOT for daily work, but again – higher ed IT! When I was working help desk years ago, there was a computer science professor who REFUSED to patch his Windows desktop beyond XP service pack 2. And this was when XP was long since unsupported and everyone was on Windows 7. He wouldn’t let anyone touch it, and because he was a long-serving professor…he got away with the security risk.
wingmaster* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am What are your best work travel tips? I’m so excited because I’m scheduled to travel for work a few times this year. My first trip is next month, and I’ll be going to Peru. When I first started the job (entry-level and less than a year ago), travel was not in the job description. So it surprises me that in less than a year, I am doing all of this, and it makes me think I’ll be moving up soon.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:50 am I’m jealous you get to go to Peru! I’ve always wanted to see Machu Picchu, any chance you will get to visit it? My tips: – drink TONS of water, travel is dehydrating – try to minimize your luggage as best you can (streamline your outfits, only take one pair of shoes) – don’t pack a giant green unwrapped soap bar because it will look suspicious to TSA officials during the luggage scan :)
Solidus Pilcrow* January 18, 2019 at 12:41 pm Lists! I find having checklists very helpful, especially if travel becomes a frequent or semi-frequent occurrence. I have lists for the following: * Work equipment – computer, power cord, mouse, USB hub, notebook, pens, etc * Misc electronic supplies – charging cables, USB wall charger, external battery pack, ear buds, power strip, etc. * Toiletries – usually separated by liquid and non-liquid * Medications/supplements For recurring travel, I bought extras of some supplies that stay “perma-packed” in my computer bag so I don’t have to pack them each time. I put a collection of charging cables, USB wall/car chargers, USB stick, and battery packs in a clear makeup zip bag. I just do a quick check that everything is in there and it’s ready to go. For meds, remember to keep a dose or two in your computer bag so you have it at work. It doesn’t help if your Excedrine is in your hotel suitcase when you have a migraine in the office. :( Get blister packs of OTC meds if you can – you can tear off just a few doses and they don’t take up any room. Get small pill carriers for bulk meds. Snack bars/protein bars! Your eating schedule may be all messed up with long hours. Nutrition bars are a good choice because they are small, discreet, individually wrapped, keep without refrigeration, and are still edible even if they get squished. (Just be careful of chocolate coatings and heat: that can get messy.)
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 1:17 pm Modern world technical problems…mostly from others not from me. Check the power-conversion requirements for anything you need to bring with you. Do this far enough in advance that you can place an order for any special equipment required. Back up & empty your personal camera a few days in advance in case you run out of cloud/hard drive space. No fun doing this the night before you leave at 5am. Check if there are any TSA or customs restrictions on medications you take. Ask your phone company how texting & calls are handled when you’re out of the country — can you block incoming ones if it’s going to cost you an arm&aleg to get robocalls, for example. Tell your credit card company where you’re going — identity protection ahead of time is easier than after the fact. Don’t wrap anything in metal or radar-proof plastic without handing it to the TSA agents. Most importantly? If you bring an electric toothbrush, take the batteries out before you pack it. Otherwise you AND the TSA will have a frightening few moments if it is accidentally turned on.
LadyByTheLake* January 18, 2019 at 12:30 pm I started using this packing list: https://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/2017/06/stuff-like-pack-light-travel-fast-part-ii-calm-traveler-packing-list/ and it has CHANGED MY LIFE. Yes, it is some upfront work to set it up initially — for example, I added a “to do” column of things that I always have to do before leaving, like writing a check to the pet sitter. And yes, it is a little more time to think ahead of time about what you are doing each day, what the weather will be and then planning for that. But what it has saved me in terms of (1) making sure I have what I need (2) making sure I am not hauling around stuff I don’t need and (3) each day already knowing what I am going to wear, has been life altering.
Friday afternoon fever* January 18, 2019 at 6:52 pm Thank you this is amazing and I have bookmarked it. I have a three-city two-week trip coming up and my normal packing method of “shove everything I could possibly want to wear into my suitcase” does not really scale past a weekend trip. (Yeah it’s three days but what if I need to wear 4 shirts a day?! I think nothing will stop me from packing every pair of underwear I own though.)
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm If your company allows you to extend your trip by a few days (on your own dime for the hotel and food, etc) do it so you can really explore, especially a place like Peru.
Ali G* January 18, 2019 at 1:10 pm It’s probably too late for this trip, but if you are going to be doing international travel, definitely look into Global Entry. It will also get you Pre-Check. Sign up for airline and hotel rewards – those add up! Make sure you know all your employers travel policies, how to get reimbursed, etc. Hope you get to have some fun!
Nala* January 18, 2019 at 1:41 pm Tips from a former road warrior Take a picture of your id front and back and keep it on your phone in case you lose you it Try to keep to a carry on. Probably do rolling bag rather than a duffel. Use a contact case to store face moisturizer and or cleanser. It cuts down on space for liquids. Sign up for all the reward programs and get those points! Bring gym clothes and tennis shoes. The one time you want to hit the gym will be when you forget those things. Get a pisco sour and some lomo saltado for me in Peru!
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 5:37 pm Be mindful of altitude sickness! I know someone who got horrible altitude sickness at Macchu Picchu that resulted in permanent nerve damage.
AcademiaNut* January 18, 2019 at 10:44 pm My secret weapon is the Master Pack List. It’s a spreadsheet that has a very, very complete list of everything I might want to pack, down to listing connector cables and power supplies as separate items, and a section for “things I take on the plane with me” as well as a checklist of things to do before leaving, and things to bring home from the office. When I have a trip, I pull it out, make a copy, and delete irrelevant items for the trip. Pack a basic supply of OTC medications (painkiller, cold medication, anti-diarrhea, allergy), and have copies of prescriptions, and the *generic* name of medications you might need to buy. Have a copy of your passport and any relevant visas in a separate location from the real one, and make sure you don’t have all your money sources in one place. Backup your laptop right before going, and delete any material that might be forbidden at your destination. Check your phone plan’s roaming charges, and options for a local SIM card on the other side if needed. Check the destination’s power requirements (plug shape, socket shape, voltage). Pre-download the dictionary for the local language into google translate (so you can do translation offline). Toss a few chocolate bars in your carry-on baggage for emergencies (like stuck planes) so you don’t get hangry. Anything you absolutely need at the other end should be in your carry on luggage. It’s pretty unusual for luggage to get completely lost, but delays are more common, particularly with multiple connections. For long trips, I pack a small toothbrush, toothpaste and deodorant, and a small hand-towel in my carryon. Clean teeth, washing your face and re-applying deodorant makes you feel so much better after sleeping in your clothes.
JessH* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Hi y’all! I am just ending a contract gig and need to return some equipment. For a tiny bit of background, it’s a pretty small, niche company where I wrote greeting cards, and got very, very little per card. I need to return the inventory I have, as well as a small photo printer that I was sent that was supposed to be a financial incentive for me, but I never ended up being able to use it or make money from it. It appears that they want me to send this stuff back on my own dime, which I’m guessing will be between $30 and $40 as I’ll need to ship this stuff cross country and paper is heavy. Is this reasonable that I should have to ship this back and pay myself? Especially shipping back something that was supposed to benefit me but would only end up actually costing more than if I never had it? I was assuming it being their property, they would pay. For perspective, the amount that it would take to ship back amounts to around 10 hours of work for them (another issue entirely!) Appreciate any perspective around norms for returning remote supplies!
Rhymes with Mitochondria* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am Just tell them you won’t pay the return shipping. Any time they ask for the equipment, just say “I have it all ready to ship, just waiting on the prepaid label.” Or see if it’s possible to send it postage due.
Anonysand* January 18, 2019 at 4:18 pm As a former admin with a company that had a lot of remote workers, they *should* be sending you a premade label. In my case, whenever we would have someone leave and needed to get their supplies back, the manager of the person leaving would copy me on an email and confirm their shipping address for the equipment return. I would then create the shipping label through our system and send it to them as a PDF so they could print, box it up, and drop it off at the nearest UPS. Plus, the company most likely gets negotiated shipping rates and will pay a fraction of the cost if they create the label rather than you. You should definitely contact your manager or direct supervisor and ask how they will be arranging the shipment before doing anything on your own dime.
..Kat* January 19, 2019 at 6:26 pm It is a business cost. Tell them you will ship it as soon as you receive the pre-paid label.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 11:30 am Help with my boss? I’m a llama wrangler, which is a very specialized position that requires a lot of institutional knowledge and training. We are not hiring wranglers. We, in fact, lost most of them last year due to a re-org. There are only 3-4 wranglers left. We are not training anyone else to do it. If any one needs a wrangler, we all need to figure out how we’re going to handle that. In the past, there was another place we could get emergency wrangling support if we needed it, that’s going to be gone as of next month. It’s all down to us! My boss made comments last year that he really wants me to train as a nerf herder. We hire herders. That is, in fact, ALL we hire for (we should be hiring admins, but that’s a different problem). 90% of the people who work here are herders. If we ever needed more, they’d hire more. My boss eventually dropped this, but he recently brought it up again, that he feels that I’m siloed as a wrangler and wants me to move into herding. This drives me bonkers, but now he wants to talk about training opportunities to get into herding and all that, and I don’t want to! Also, it just makes me feel like he doesn’t think wrangling is important at all (which is, in fact, a thing he told me last year). He said that he knows I really like wrangling and all that comes with it, but he feels he’d be a bad boss if he didn’t push me toward other opportunities. The only other opportunities are herding. Meanwhile, I’d be happy to take more wrangling on. Argh. How do I handle this? I’m preparing some info on wrangling trainings I’d be happy to take, but I just know that this is going to be him wanting me to become a herder. Which wasn’t what I was hired for, it’s not what I want to do, and aslkdjfa;lskfdja;lkjsf . I’d probably be less bothered about this if it was the only problem I’m having with my boss not valuing the work I do, but alas, it is not. Thoughts? And, yeah, wrangling is a technical position and herding is not. Once again non-technical folks not realizing all the work that goes into the “magic”.
INeedANap* January 18, 2019 at 12:50 pm I would have a friendly but super-direct script for every time he brings it up. “Boss, I don’t want to do herding. I don’t want any opportunities to herd. I would love to hear about any wrangling opportunities, though!” I would use basically the exact same wording every time, too – a friendly tone of voice, but no softening. I don’t know that you can get him to value your work, but depending on the type of relationship you have with him, could you say something like: “Boss, I think wrangling is really important work. It seems like you’re trying to move me towards herding because you don’t agree, but you should know that I value wrangling, I think it’s important, and I am not interested at all in herding.”
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm He actually did receive a Come On Dude FFS lecture from a higher-up last year about not respecting the work that wranglers do. So I don’t know how much good it would do for me to point out the behavior is not making me feel like a valued member of our team. It’s just very very frustrating. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it’s not a good-faith effort to get me a better paying job, I already make the same as, or more than, most of the herders. And it’s not a good-faith effort for cross-training, if anything, herders should be cross-trained as wranglers, not the other way around. The first script was something I used on an old boss once and worked, I laid it out that I liked the path I was on. I don’t know about this boss, but I can try again!
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 4:47 pm Would he like to ask a peer to trade their herder for you? Does he see himself as a herder’s supervisor or is he just obsessed with pushing you where you don’t want to be?
Owler* January 18, 2019 at 5:26 pm If you lost positions in the reorg, and they aren’t hiring any more, how confident are you that the company will continue to keep a wrangling group?
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 7:57 pm Yes, this is what I was thinking. You say your company doesn’t hire wranglers–is that the case across your field? Maybe your boss knows something you don’t, and he’s trying to keep you employed. I may be projecting a bit here, since I work in a niche of the industry that I really feel is going to go by the way of the dodo bird. I’m desperately trying to position myself as “wrangler and herder!” because I’m afraid that if all my experience is wrangling, I’ll be unemployable come ten years. I’m also trying to get my group to take on more herding, because I’m worried they’ll eliminate my group altogether. Unfortunately, my boss is not of the same mind and is really digging her heels in that we are NOT HERDERS! Even though I convinced her to let me do some herding. If you really hate herding, I’d frankly ask your boss, “are you worried about the future of wrangling at our company?” At least then you can have a direct conversation, and be able to come up with a plan if your employer stops wanting wranglers altogether.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 8:03 pm Ours is a growth area, they keep asking us for more and more, they just don’t want to staff it. They don’t understand the time and effort that goes into it, and don’t care when we tell them. But thanks I think I will ask him about if he’s worried about the future of X in the company, turn it around on him.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 8:00 pm They absolutely need to keep us to maintain required systems. In fact, they keep piling work on top of us because they need more of X developed.
AMT27* January 18, 2019 at 11:31 am Very niche question, about relocating to/working in Ireland: I’m in the US and am seriously considering moving overseas to Ireland at some point in the future (it’s long been a dream but now I’m starting to actually attempt to plan and make it happen). However, getting a work visa for Ireland is incredibly difficult! I’ve done all the research, so I know for me it is close to impossible (but I’m still going to try). I am an accountant, and currently work in a family office/investment firm, but I do not have my CPA and therefore sadly do not fall into any category on the Critical Skills list. Does anyone have any advice on the feasability of this? I know people who have done it but either they moved there a long time ago (I spoke to an immigration attorney awhile back and it sounds like they’ve tightened up visa approvals A LOT in the past year), married an Irish citizen, or went as refugees…. At the moment my options seem to be waiting to see if the rules change a bit over the next few years (which is fine, I’m not looking to move for a couple years anyway), or maybe find a job that has an Irish branch I could potentially relocate to (not ideal as most of those land you in Dublin, and I am looking more west Coast).
AMT27* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am Also, I am based in Cleveland right now, so the working for a US/Irish company alternative is a bit less feasible than if I were located somewhere else. And while I like working in my current field I am open to most types of Accounting work, not specifically investment focused.
Gloria Burgle* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm I can’t help you with relocation advice, but there are a lot of US companies that have offices in Cork. Definitely something to look into!
Glomarization, Esq.* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm If you don’t meet the minimum requirements of the scheme, then you don’t meet them. They’re probably not going to lower the threshold in the future. You say you’re not looking to move for a couple more years. Can you make a plan for yourself for the next couple of years to obtain the qualifications that Ireland requires?
AMT27* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm Well, they will issue work visas outside the critical skills list, but the requirements to be met are a bit difficult or nebulous (salary thresholds, or an employer unable to find a qualified candidate locally/in the EU, etc). But I haven’t yet found anyone whose done it to know how feasible that is. Obtaining my CPA is something I adamantly do not want to do, I only got my bachelor’s degree a year ago and that would require going back to school again for a master’s, plus a year or more of study programs to sit the test, all for a certification I don’t want or need for the type of work I do. I simply don’t have the time, money or inclination to do it at this point in my life. I’m just looking for any other options I haven’t yet explored, as the few that seem available to me don’t seem particularly viable (such as finding an employer with locations in both Cleveland and Galway, or marrying an irish citizen……)
Glomarization, Esq.* January 20, 2019 at 7:45 pm Best wishes for good luck. Chiming in because I have some experience in helping immigrants to Canada, which has a system similar to Ireland’s when it comes to encouraging certain professionals while making a lot of mid-level office work ineligible for non-EU citizens. (And they change the categories regularly, so what was allowed in the past won’t necessarily be allowed in the future.) Your best bet is probably to find an Irish lawyer or immigration consultant who can give you a thorough assessment and help you find a realistic path to residence and citizenship.
Missing Galway* January 18, 2019 at 6:49 pm Are you open to pursuing studies there for a while? I saw in another comment that you would prefer to just work, but if being able to live in Ireland while pursuing a masters or other degree changes things for you, it’s worth looking into. Moving there as a student is much easier! I went on a Fulbright scholarship, and as a US citizen I did not even have to get a visa. I just had to apply for a residence permit before my 90 days of tourist time were up.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 19, 2019 at 2:42 pm I think the geographic detail that’s going to be most important is northern vs southern…so hold onto your hat and see what happens over the next few months with Brexit. It could be a wild ride.
Decima Dewey* January 18, 2019 at 11:32 am News from the library: I finished the 4 session mandatory Community Engagement Training. I’m now committed to a project that I’m supposed to work on for 2 hours a week for 12 weeks, and my supervisor is supposed to allow me those two hours each week during working hours. The training was disappointing: reductive, with role playing in every session (after 27 1/2 years in the system, I feel I could join an improv troupe), as well as group discussions of what we thought of the stuff the training was supposed to teach us to do. The facilitator actually admitted one thing they taught us was part of the training because they could get copyright permission to reproduce the chart explaining it. They urged those who enjoyed the training to coerce—I mean convince–others to attend. They announced that Lucinda would be recruiting people at the next cluster meeting, which came as a surprise to Lucinda, since they hadn’t gotten around to asking her yet. We were supposed to learn how to prepare surveys for library patrons to fill out, but that part of the training was set aside to continue a discussion the facilitator found interesting. Never fear, Great Grandboss (or Great Great Grandboss, hard to keep it all straight) thinks that surveys are a wonderful thing, so surveys will be done. In other news, Religious Coworker has retired and Grandboss is pressing HR to hire a replacement for her. Meanwhile, other branches in our cluster send us one circulation assistant per day. We had a branch staff meeting this morning, and I learned more about the HR travails of my boss, Mr. Lastname, than I really wanted to know. Perpetually Late Guy continues to be late each and every day he comes in: he calls to say he’ll be in by the time we open to the public at 10 am, then calls back at 10:18 to say he’ll be later still, and that he had been calling HR to get his FMLA re-established (he could have made the call from here when he wasn’t scheduled on the front desk). The project I’m doing for the Community Engagement program is interesting: I decided to do a community assets map of public art in my branch’s service area. The result will be a science fair type exhibit to be ignored by people at our next All Staff Day in April.
gbca* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am I’m looking for an organizational system that I’m not sure exists…anyone have recommendations? I’d like a letter-sized portfolio with a spiral notebook inside (not a legal pad that you flip from the top). I’d like it to have a place in the front to include a printout page (my daily agenda from outlook), as well as post-it pads. I haven’t been able to find something that quite fits the bill – would love any suggestions!
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm I found some possibly-likely options by searching “spiral padfolio”. HTH!
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:14 pm Link in separate comment: here is one: https://www.hansmfg.com/p/product/ab193fbc-b816-453f-9bd3-408a8b2ba244/deluxe-padfolio-plus-spiral-notebook
it happens* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm A little pricy, but very nice option are the Levenger padfolios. Most are made for flip-over pads, but the one made for their circa notebooks could take a spiral notebook.
IntoTheSarchasm* January 20, 2019 at 5:38 pm I second this, and you might like the Circa notebooks too.
Hamburke* January 20, 2019 at 8:16 pm Have you looked into a disk notebook? Office Depot has a brand called TUL. I have a leather notebook with the pocket in the inside, it folds over flat and I can add more or less paper and custom organizer pieces (calendar, tab notes, folders, etc) and change the disks to be bigger if I want. I bought the punch so I can punch any paper to tab in to my notebook and I use it when I go to client visits – never drop a paper!
ThinMint* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am I would like to get opinions/anecdotes on managing people who have totally different skills and job responsibilities than the manager. My team is looking at some upcoming retirements and my boss and I feel it’s a great time to rethink what our team needs to assist our company. Both of us believe strongly (and think our boss would agree) that we need people with a technical background. Something like report developers, data analysts, application developers. It’s exciting to think of what our team could do if we had these people with us. BUT! I have none of those skills and I’ve never managed someone where I didn’t know the ins and outs of their job or had the ability to learn it if I needed to. What are some things I need to be aware? What do I need to do differently to make sure they feel supported? Is this a bad idea in general?
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm Since I’m currently going through on the employee end: my only real advice is *listen* to them. Ask them what they need, ask them if they need help, ask them what you can offer that would make their jobs easier/better, support them in the way they want to grow, don’t try to prune them into a different shape.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 1:03 pm Hah, so I’m a data manager reporting to someone without technical knowledge. Honestly, it kind of sucks. I wouldn’t mind it as much if it were like, a VP of Technology who knows the basics of technological stuff but couldn’t do it themselves–but mine really knows nothing about what I do. When I was hired, I was given a computer with 4 GB RAM. It’s not the end of the world, and I’m not going to quit over it or anything, but it’s definitely not ideal. If it’s all possible to hire someone in a higher level role (but maybe something more generalized like operations) to oversee them, I’d recommend it.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 1:04 pm And if you do move forward hiring a tech person and managing themselves: understand that while you outrank them, they’re the expert on the topic at hand, and take their word for it when they recommend something.
ThinMint* January 18, 2019 at 2:47 pm Yes… knowing my personality I think I would end up being perhaps to overly deferential and not providing the leadership I need to in non-technical ways. As with many of these questions, it’s part of a much larger issue. We have a technical team in our company that I am not a part of that continues to hire more people and does not produce as they need to so the thought was maybe getting some fresh faces in a different unit would help.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 3:37 pm Since it looks like you need a reporting person, if you have an analytical mind and know the database well from a user standpoint (like you know where the data is held, who puts it in, what it’s used for) that would go far. It’s part of a data analyst’s job to translate requests to code, but all to often managers don’t even know how to begin how to describe the data they’re looking for. So if you at least know to frame that stuff, it’d go far. If you don’t know the database, it’d be tough. Also, since they won’t be able to learn their craft from you, make sure you’re supportive of their ability to take trainings, webinars, certifications, etc.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 3:40 pm But also – be really careful in hiring! You have to get someone you trust in there since you will be depending on their expertise. I mean, obviously you always do that but it’s even more important if no one else in the org has similar knowledge. (Why no, I am not working somewhere that has had 2 inappropriately-skilled people fill a specialized role that is critical to the org but not in our main line of business resulting in already busy people who are highly educated in, say, tea leave cultivating, having to spend a not insignificant amount of time doing tea marketing.)
j22* January 18, 2019 at 11:33 am Last week I was excited because I’d gotten the raise I asked for – this week I’m excited because I have two phone interviews! I was having trouble putting together my thoughts (and my arguments) for why and how my responsibilities had shifted, and how much to ask for, so I got myself moving by updating my resume with everything that I was doing and how much that was worth. It was easier to do that by looking at job postings, and once I was done, I had tailored resumes for two postings, so I thought I might as well put together cover letters for more practice, and by that point I had completed applications, so I submitted them. And they both got back to me! And now I’m interviewing with them! I’m a little intimidated, because it feels like my attempt to get a raise has snowballed a bit, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing, and if nothing else, now I’ll get practice with phone interviews too!
Annie Morgan* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am I have a one-sided video interview that I need to complete this weekend, which will be a new experience for me – does anyone have any advice? Suggestions? Things I should definitely avoid? (I mean, ideally, I’d like to avoid the video interview entirely, but I really want this job, so.)
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 12:10 pm Set up in a quiet environment. Check that the background they will see is not cluttered or busy (gives a bad impression). Have ready- but out of camera view- your resume, the job description, a pen and paper, any notes you have about the company. Make sure you have good lighting. Is this via HireVue? I’ve done many of those. When they show the question, they will give you some time to compose a response before they turn on the camera and record you. So use the pen and paper to jot down notes or an outline to refer to as you answer their question. Use the job description, company info and your resume if needed for answering. But keep all out of camera view. (don’t rattle the papers during recording!). Dress appropriately. Suit if necessary. Again, check the lighting & clothes coloring so you don’t look washed out or too shadowy. Relax. Smile. I discovered that it can be hard to talk to a computer screen. No one to provide visual & verbal feedback as you make your answers. YMMV. If you have any acting experience, use it for this.
SadMidwesterner* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm I’ve used Spark Hire extensively! The ones I’ve had have oddly always had an option to re-tape the question as many times as you want. This is a double edged sword- you don’t have to worry about messing up, but I think it sets the expectation at having an extremely well thought out and rehearsed answer. If you’re someone who is patient enough to spend an hour+ composing and practicing each question (as I have seen friends do), more power to you, but I never am able to do that. If they only allow limited re-takes it honestly might be easier because you’re “forced” to be natural. The program itself is pretty user friendly though, so hopefully that shouldn’t be an issue.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm Retakes? Take advantage of that! HireVue didn’t allow me to do this.
TheTallestOneEver* January 18, 2019 at 8:24 pm If it’s SparkHire, don’t use the Android app. It’s awful. I was invited to interview for an internal position, and I spent two hours chatting back and forth with SparkHire’s tech support because of problems trying to record 12 minutes of video (app froze, questions were skipped, then the videos wouldn’t upload). The experience was so ridiculous that I complained to HR. Hopefully using a standard PC or laptop will be a better experience.
Should I stay or should I go?* January 18, 2019 at 11:34 am I’m feeling extremely conflicted. I’ve been at my job for about 4 years, during which I’ve just been promoted (for the second time) to the highest level of support/admin staff. The promotion came with a salary bump and a raise on top of that as well. I also got a pretty nice bonus equivalent to about 1-2 months of my regular pay. This was not a surprise because I was and am the lead on a massive, organization-wide project and my boss has finally given me some autonomy/authority to really complete the things that need to be done for this project. He has also taken away much of the admin work I had been doing to make room for this project which is highly specialized. I am the only one here with the knowledge and expertise to do this project. However, there are still several aspects of my role that I absolutely dread. Some of it is the coworkers with whom I’d have to be working and how they interact with me (like a personal assistant). Some of it is that while some of the admin duties have been taken away, not all of them have and I am still absolutely drowning in work (because of this project). As part of this project I worked myself close to the brink in the second half of 2018 and I just can’t sustain that going forward despite the massive amount of things that still need to be done. My boss doesn’t understand the project at all so it is really just me and my expectations for true accountability. There was also a lot of coy, dancing around what my role and responsibilities were going to be (until very recently). So long story short, before I knew about the promotion/raise/bonus, I had started applying to jobs. Because my boss is crazy and isn’t going to change. He’s still crazy but now I have this extra layer of guilt that I shouldn’t keep applying to jobs, or if (fingers crossed) the interviews I have turn into an offer that I shouldn’t take it. FWIW it looks like I can get a 15-20k pay increase if I leave and the work would be aligned much more closely to what I want to be doing. But leaving would definitely screw my company over. Can someone just tell me I’m overthinking? How have others dealt with similar situations?
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am You’re overthinking. If you got hit by a bus tomorrow, your company would deal. In fact, we had an office with only one employee who did indeed get into a serious car accident, and it was tough while she was in the hospital (and later when she was fired) but we coped. Feel free to leave at any time. You don’t owe them anything particularly aside from hard work while you’re employed there. But you’re not tied to them otherwise. The guilt appears to be pretty normal. Lots of people feel that way leaving a job after a long time. But you’ll get over it as soon as you settle into your awesome new job.
Binky* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm If you can get better work for better pay, take it. Your company is screwing itself over by not properly valuing and supporting you or otherwise ensuring necessary work is covered. You are not morally obligated to suffer to protect them from their own incompetence.
Temperance* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm If you don’t leave this workplace, you will always be an admin. People will always have you do stupid admin tasks.
Should I stay or should I go?* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm Thank you! Seriously. I’ve been bombarding myself with the other responses and kept feeling a little wishy-washy but this kind of drove it home for me. I appreciate the honesty and support.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 6:07 pm They are not worried about how they are screwing you over right now.
Anonymous EA* January 18, 2019 at 11:37 am I’m an EA. Today I had to schedule a meeting so my boss (the head of this department) could tell our top performer that he needs to work less hard because his hard work and the amount of work he does is making his co-workers look and feel bad and he needs to stop. Some of these people barely work and honesty should have gotten fired a long time ago. He is head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of performance. I thought the meeting was because he was being a jerk or flaunting his superiority but my boss said no and that he needs to stop making others look bad. I have been ignoring the signs that this place may be dysfunctional but now I’m like “Yep. It’s time to start job hunting”. There is supposed to be a huge snowstorm this weekend here so I plan to stay in and work on my resume. I now see I need to get out. Please keep your fingers crossed for me.
Nessun* January 18, 2019 at 3:20 pm Best of luck to you!! (And don’t think that overachiever isn’t polishing up his resume too…)
Bostonian* January 18, 2019 at 4:15 pm If he wasn’t before, he definitely will be after that meeting! Yikes! Good luck with the snow this weekend, Anonymous EA. My whole state here will apparently be getting hit hard, but I’m hoping for less in my pocket of the world.
Bostonian* January 18, 2019 at 4:15 pm If he wasn’t before, he definitely will be after that meeting! Yikes! Good luck with the snow this weekend, Anonymous EA. My whole state here will apparently be getting hit hard, but I’m hoping for less in my pocket of the world.
Fishsticks* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am How early is too early to start a cross-country job search? I want move from big east coast city to smaller but still larger west coast city that I have family near to. My lease is up at the end of August and I want to hopefully have a job by then, but I will be moving regardless since I don’t want to stay in big east coast city for another year. I’m currently thinking starting my job search in April, but I’m concerned that’s too early? I’m going to try and get hired either in local government, non-profits, or defense/government contracting. Also complicating everything, is that I will have to hire and train my replacement and so I need to make sure that I will have a replacement before I quit so I’m planning on telling my boss I’m leaving in April as well. (He will be fine with it and will let me have a long notice period no problem). Any tips or advice would be appreciated!
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm Start now. Don’t undersestimate how long it can take to get hired. Starting in April with a need-to-move date in August might not be long enough. Especially with government/government contracting, you might have delays especially if you need a background check.
Elizabeth Proctor* January 18, 2019 at 1:31 pm Do you have a contract that requires a longer notice period? It sounds like you are US based, so if not, are you sure you HAVE to hire and train your replacement?
Fishsticks* January 18, 2019 at 2:07 pm I don’t have to, but it’s a two person company and my boss is a great reference and heavily involved in politics so I do not want to just give a standard two week notice. Also there is no one else to train my replacement since my boss (despite it being his company) doesn’t know all the info about this position and what I do.
FarmGirl* January 20, 2019 at 12:03 am Start writing procedures to help your boss and the person replacing you.
Violet Rose* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am Those of you who are freelancers and self-employed, how many working hours do you tend to “log” per week? For context, I’m a part-time crafter who works from home, and I am trying to work my way up to full-time. Since I struggle with issues of attention span and managing myself, it would be really helpful to have data on what is a ‘realistic’ number of hours of actual crafting to shoot for! For the record, I log ‘crafting time’, ‘online time’ for things like client communication and ordering supplies, and ‘in-person time’ for things like cleaning up my workstation if I’m in a crunch and it becomes a mess. So far I usually log around 18-20 hours of ‘crafting time’, 3-8 hours of ‘online time’, and maybe a few minutes of ‘in-person time’ per week. I’m trying to slowly work my way up to 30 hours of focused crafting per week, which would give me more stable income and allow me time to be more experimental with my projects.
Sybil Fawlty* January 18, 2019 at 2:05 pm For me, I need to spend about equal amounts of time working on product and networking/marketing/paperwork. So it ends up about 15-2o hours of each per week for me. It depends on how much you to need to make to sell, but I think it’ll take about half your time to do it. So if you want to work 60 hrs per week, 30 hours of crafting is a good goal. Or if you have dedicated clients already and don’t have to constantly find new ones, your non-crafting time might be less. That’s my 2 cents! I keep meaning to start a Self-Employed comment thread here but I keep forgetting to do it. I know there are a lot of self-employed people and I like to hear about what others do, too. I hope this helps and good luck to you!
Violet Rose* January 19, 2019 at 9:52 am A Self-Employed comment thread would be really awesome! I’d love to hear what other people do and what works versus doesn’t work. Right now, I’m heavily involved in a particular fandom that generates a lot of business (I’m primarily a seamstress, and a surprising but delighting number of people want plushies of OCs or characters that aren’t commercially available), so that cuts down a LOT on my client-finding time. Instead, I hope to spend a little more of my non-crafting-but-still-working time on what I think of as R&D, such as sourcing and testing new patterns, or other activities that will improve my overall workflow/skills but isn’t necessarily working on a specific thing for my shop.
Dr. Anonymous* January 18, 2019 at 8:38 pm You might check into the Craft Industry Alliance to connect with peers on this as well.
Mimmy* January 18, 2019 at 11:38 am The insanity continues at my job! Without going into potentially identifying details: Managements asks staff for input to help them make a decision about how long a particular client can continue in our program. Our input was that this client is not benefitting–client’s behavior being a major factor in said level of benefit–and management provides this feedback to client. So we think client will finish the program at the end of this month. During lunch, client announces to everyone an end date of later in February. Staff within earshot, myself included, are like “huh???” We are taking it with a grain of salt as we have not heard this directly from our manager. Still, we are feeling a little insulted that our input apparently meant nothing. Client has been nothing but trouble for our program, having a negative impact on everyone, particularly the other clients. Yet, management seems too intimidated to cut Client out once and for all. There are other things too but I don’t want to get into details to preserve privacy. The long and short of it is that management is handling this situation terribly. It is a state-run agency – I wonder if this is common in state-run programs. Luckily, Client finished my portion of the program a few weeks ago, so all I did was document this fact. Yet, all of this sends a message that our input is not valued no matter how much management asks for it.
Miss M* January 18, 2019 at 1:12 pm I can say that my experience with working with state-run program that is definitely not…uncommon.
Mimmy* January 18, 2019 at 5:30 pm Well the good news is that Client’s “announcement” yesterday may not be true. I texted a coworker to see how things went today (I don’t work on Fridays and clients were sent home yesterday in anticipation of the winter weather), and our director said during a staff meeting that Client is not coming back. My coworker said that I was lucky that I was not at the meeting, but I’m kinda sad I missed all the gory details! I know that’s a bad attitude, but it’s like a gnarly traffic accident–you can’t help but want to see/hear everything even though you know it’s wrong.
Llama Wrangler* January 18, 2019 at 11:40 am I have a question about how people think a company should handle a limited number of designated parking spaces. We have someone threatening to quit over not having her own space, and the company is not willing to budge. The long version is: we’re about 100 people, and until this year there were 20 parking spots — more than enough for everyone who regularly and sometimes drives (we live in a place where people who live close by can take take public transportation, some people alternate driving and public transit, but some people commute long distances and its impractical for them to come any other way than by car). Then this year another company took over about half of the spots, which means we have a shortage. The company decided to do a lottery — anyone who wanted a spot could put their name in for one, 10 names would be drawn, and then anyone else who wanted a spot could get it for the next quarter, etc. However, when it came time to do the lottery, one of the people who regularly drives and doesn’t have a good alternative did not get a spot. She says some of the people who did get spots don’t need the spot all the time because they don’t drive every day. And now she’s threatening to quit (because there are not other reliable parking places nearby). I have very little stake in this, other than not wanting to lose a team member because of parking, but I’m curious — what are better ways of handling this?
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am This may not be solveable. Your company allowed the number of available spaces to be cut in half and didn’t provide any alternative. Your company could try providing transit passes as a benefit, but people that use transit and also drive usually need the car on the days that they drive. Depending on where you live, 10 spaces is not enough for 100 workers.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm I think a lottery system is fair, especially since it sounds like you’ll be switching it up every quarter. It’s not reasonable to have to quantify how often everyone drives and add that to the spot assignment equation. Can you implement some kind of spot sharing system? We have a calendar where people mark if they’re going to be on vacation or taking public transit and that their spot is up for grabs. It doesn’t totally eliminate the issue, but it helps quite a bit.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 3:56 pm I disagree with this. If there are people who can use public transportation but choose not to, they may have good reasons, but they have more options than someone who has no public transportation available to her. I think the latter should be given greater weight.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 5:22 pm they have more options than someone who has no public transportation available to her. I think the latter should be given greater weight. Yes. The lottery system is chaos. She needs to be able to park, at a reasonable distance, in a reasonable timeframe. (I am thinking of the OP who had to drive around a university 45+ minutes hoping a space would open up, or give up and go home.)
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:22 pm And now she’s threatening to quit (because there are not other reliable parking places nearby). Well, she does need to get to work. And she needs to be able to park when she gets to work. If your company can’t provide it and there’s no places around where she can park… she literally can’t work for you since there’s no way for her to reliably be sure she can get there and deal with the car. Frankly, 10 spots for 100 people in a place where there isn’t other parking options seems really really low. This isn’t going to be the last time you run into this problem. If you’re willing to lose people on this, accept that you’re going to lose people and that your staffing will be mostly local people or people who have access to public transit to get there. That may be something you’re interested in. It may not be. But it’s going to limit your candidate pool and you should be prepared to be upfront about it in the hiring process, telling people that if they decide to drive to work, they have a good chance of not being able to park.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 12:40 pm They said that 20 spots were plenty, it’s just that 10 is not enough. It sounds like most people are able to use public transportation, which means that it’s probably a dense area where parking is at a premium. The complainer might need to look into park-and-rides or local rideshares. It’s not really the company’s problem to solve, imo.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 1:00 pm They don’t need to solve it. They just need to accept that they have it and that if they don’t solve it, things will happen that will not have happened if they did solve it. When an old company I worked for had this issue, they rented spaces in a garage and ran shuttles, but 100 employees is probably way too small for that to be feasible. At some point, the company has to make choices and accept the consequences for them, and it might be losing staff who can’t make it work.
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 1:25 pm The company has some responsibility, since they changed the conditions (or allowed them to be changed) without addressing the consequences.
Arielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:33 pm Is there garage parking or something nearby that the company could subsidize? I used to work in a location that was mostly residents-only parking all around, but the city offered “employee” parking stickers which our company paid for. It was annoying because you were limited to a particular street during daytime hours only, and if that was full you were SOL, but it was better than nothing. (I have no idea how common this is, maybe not helpful at all but worth investigating!)
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:49 pm Your company has handled this badly, from losing the spaces to not considering how people who HAVE TO DRIVE A CAR would manage without an alternative parking option.
No Tribble At All* January 18, 2019 at 12:59 pm Yeah, I think you need some kind of prioritization for people who fullstop, cannot take public transportation. Unfortunately that leads into evaluating everyone’s individual commutes. Maybe there’s a nearby lot they can rent extra spaces at, and then shuttle people to and from at the start and end of day?
CM* January 19, 2019 at 5:48 am If 20 spaces was more than adequate parking before, it sounds like there’s at least a possibility that giving the spaces out based on need would have solved the problem — and, if they only had to consider applications from 20 people or so, that’s not too labor-intensive. I vote that doing it based on need is MORE fair than doing it based on lottery. But I also think it’s ignorant for them to cut half of their parking spaces in an area with no public parking and not foresee that it might cost people their jobs.
Alice* January 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm You didn’t mention money — whether the lottery winners have to pay, whether there are parking garages nearby. (I know you said “not other reliable parking places nearby” but it seems unlikely to have a city with such tight parking that doesn’t have garages — maybe expensive ones, but existing at least.) Should the expense of employee parking fall on the company, the landlord, the employees who drive, or the taxpayers of the municipality? It may be that the logistics for the driver just don’t work out. So if you don’t want her to quit, you can reserve one of the spaces for her. Then maybe some of the other employees negotiate the same thing, but that’s a bridge to cross when you come to it.
CatCat* January 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm The better way of handling this would be to ensure the company had sufficient parking facilities. There’s no way to make everyone happy when there literally are just not enough spaces. People leaving over it is a foreseeable and natural consequence.
LadyByTheLake* January 18, 2019 at 2:16 pm I was going to say exactly what “awaiting the snow” said. How do you expect her to get to work when you acknowledge that she needs to drive but she doesn’t have any place to put her car once she arrives?
CupcakeCounter* January 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm Company is in the wrong. The people who drive daily and have no alternative options should get a spot first. People who occasionally drive then get placed in the lottery so sign up for a spot when they need to drive for whatever reason. Unless the company is willing to pay for any parking fees that this employee has to pay in order to work they are being unreasonable. The company changed the employment conditions and has placed hardship on this employee (and any other in the same position – she might be the only one complaining now but what is going to happen next quarter when Employee B loses their spot to Employee D and is in the same position as this person?) and she is rightfully explaining what needs to happen for her to remain employed there.
Grapey* January 18, 2019 at 3:17 pm “No alternative options” is subjective. Currently my commute is 80 minutes long because I choose to drive to a nearby public transit stop to avoid driving downtown (40mins) and then hunt for a free street spot or pay for an expensive nearby garage. Some other people in my department think I’m crazy for preferring a bus ride where I can read or nap and would not think that is an ‘alternative option’ for them. I do agree that the employment conditions changed and that OP just might be out of luck (and an employee) if that’s a sticking point. But I wouldn’t say the company is wrong (morally maybe, but not legally) unless they laid this out in an employee handbook. The company needs to get their stuff together and figure out a lottery though. My company has a waiting list for spots. The winners can keep them as long as they’d like but there is a monthly fee to keep it, and once you miss a month, you’re off the list.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 6:29 pm I will be that lone voice saying I agree with her. I live in a rural area and usually this is not a problem. However one company here had huge problems with parking spaces. They did not have any property for employees to park. So employees parked anywhere. Like dominoes falling over, this set off a chain of problems that eventually angered most of the community. Now the company is going out of business. Just my opinion but I can’t help but wonder if they were reported for something by one of the many people they ticked off over the parking. Having a parking spot is pretty basic. I’d put it on the same level as having a toilet and running water. (Other people disagree and that is okay. I only mean my personal priorities.) Your company had spots and gave them up for whatever reason. I am surprised only one person is ticked off and ready to leave. Your company is lucky. Going forward that should be discussed before a person is hired so they can plan or withdraw their application accordingly. Meanwhile, can she hitch a ride with someone who does have a parking space? Is there a park and ride where people can meet?
AcademiaNut* January 18, 2019 at 11:12 pm I agree that this is a pretty reasonable thing to quit over. She took the job in a situation where she could drive to work. Now, she won’t know until she shows up to work if she’ll be able to park or not – what happens if there isn’t a spot? If the job had never had guaranteed parking, then she would have been able to make a reasonable decision whether to take the job in the first place, and would be employed somewhere else. And, as a long time transit user who doesn’t own a car, I think that telling them things like “well, you can drive to a garage somewhere else in the city and then take a bus to and from the office” is not a reasonable response. There was a letter a while ago about someone who *did* quit because parking reorganization mean parking a mile from the office with no reasonable options, and the employer refused to address this until after she gave notice. I would bet this coworker is applying for jobs right now. Policing people’s commuting choices is also non-optimal (querying people about whether they *really* need to drive, or how often they’re going to drive), but giving a dedicated parking spot to someone who drives occasionally and optionally, but not someone who needs to drive daily is pretty bad. If there really are no other parking options, then the employer has to accept that people will quit over this. If there is something like a paid parking lot nearby, then the employer should pay for 10 reserved spots to bring things back to a workable solution.
Ann O.* January 19, 2019 at 4:42 am IMHO, with that few spaces, they should have prioritized the lottery by distance from a public transit stop. Those spots do need to be reserved for people who functionally have no other option. But it’s a bad situation all around because people do start job hunting when commute and parking become issues. IMHO, the company should proactively look for a real solution.
pugs for all* January 19, 2019 at 5:14 pm My company does it by seniority. That way it is very cut and dried as to who gets a spot when someone leaves. The next person on the list does not have a car, so it will be interesting to see what happens. And for people that don’t get spots, the company pays for a parking permit in a town lot. It’s a few blocks away though, so everyone wants the spots by the office. But I think this systems seems fair.
Owler* January 20, 2019 at 6:32 pm When there’s a limited resource, sometimes you have to get creative to reduce the attractiveness of the resource. Getting a parking spot is a perk, so it might behoove the company to look at how they reward those who don’t get a spot. Spouse works at a company in an overcrowded city with few parking options. Transit is there, but limited. Weather is mild so biking and walking are valid options if distance isn’t huge. Anyway, company parking is available for opting into on a seniority basis. If your name comes up on the parking waitlist, you can opt to take the spot, with the general agreement that you drive in daily and use it. Others who don’t have a spot are given incentives to reduce their driving to the office, including credit on bus passes, money to buy bike or running gear, or sign up for things like a bike tune up at the office. People who get a chance at the spot but decline it get a transit bonus. (And no, this isn’t a startup.) I can remember when his name came up on the parking lottery for a spot, and we chatted about whether to have him take it. He declined, and we see an ongoing bonus on his paycheck while the spot is available for someone who design have our ability to go without driving in. He mostly bikes or jogs to work, but occasionally I give him a ride or he uses a ride share car. And if he feels a need for better lights on his bike or a upgrade to an ebike, as he did befor the weather got cold and yucky, the cost is lessened by the transit bonus.
Llama Wrangler* January 22, 2019 at 12:06 pm I was away from a computer this weekend, but I want to thank everyone who took the time to reply. Just a few clarifying thoughts: -The reduction of the parking spaces was out of the company’s control (the building we lease from removed some from our use) -We work in a place where parking is at a premium; there are actually no parking garages in the area. However, we also work in a place where it is very rare for employers to provide parking. It’s not clear to me whether the person in question accepted the job with the understanding that the parking was part of her employment. -I have no control or say over this, though there may be a team meeting at some point soon where we can voice our opinions. In any case, I think you all convinced me that this was badly handled, and that a lottery that does not take into consideration people’s driving needs and habits will make it next to impossible for people to get to work. I think because we work in a locale where so few employers provide parking, I (and likely the company) dismissed this as a reasonable concern initially.
Flinty* January 18, 2019 at 11:41 am Just curious about what others think: I have a coworker who is nice, but tends to be really…opinionated. It tends to come out most in meetings, where she is always the first to raise her hand at every juncture and deliver a (to my ears) self-important monologue, often not even completely on topic. Like someone will raise a question about how to improve our processes so clients receive reimbursement checks faster, and she will go on and on about how important it is to get reimbursement checks out in a timely manner, without really answering the question. Of course, a good meeting organizer should and sometimes does step in to cut her off, but as a manager, would you say something to her about the pattern? Or would you let it go as a personality quirk? (I’m not her manager, but am curious about whether someone would ideally be asking her tone it down.)
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm I think if it’s not too disruptive to the meeting (i.e., you get all the stuff done you need to get done, and she’s not saying anything highly offensive), I’d probably let it go as a personality quirk. But if it results in serious tangents that mean the meetings are running overtime or that you just don’t get done all the stuff you need to get done, I would talk to her about (if her concerns are legitimate) maybe addressing her concerns in another venue or (if her concerns aren’t legitimate) not bringing them up during those meetings.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 5:30 pm I would rein her in. It’s like she’s following advice to share her thoughts about every topic.
HalloweenCat* January 18, 2019 at 11:43 am I would love to hear the commentariat’s feelings on “pop-in” culture. I work for a relatively small company, around 100 people. The office culture at large seems to rely on cubicle pop-ins. My position involves a lot of writing and other tasks that require a great deal of concentration. I am frequently interrupted (to the point that if I have an especially important piece of writing I need to get done, I come in early so I’m in the office alone). I HATE that people show up in my cube and try to demand my immediate attention, but since it is the office norm I generally just roll with it, allowing myself to be distracted from the task at hand and sometimes prioritizing their request over the project I was working on when they came in. Well, yesterday I was working on an incredibly involved and time-sensitive project when someone showed up at my desk to discuss minor changes to a project that has been stagnant for months. I asked him if he could come back later because I was in the middle of something (I’ll admit I may have been more abrupt than I usually am, but it was still professional and not snappish) and he told me it would only take a couple minutes and tried to have the conversation anyway. I held firm but I feel like I broke some major office taboo by defending my time and rejecting the pop-in. I answer emails faster than anyone in my office and if my phone rings from an internal number I answer it no matter what I’m doing because it is less distracting to me than a face to face conversation and doesn’t break my concentration nearly as much. Am I being overly sensitive about yesterday’s interaction and pop in culture in general?
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am I don’t think you’re going to change your office’s culture, so I would suggest that you put up a sign at your desk when you’re working on something involved that says “Do Not Disturb – Need to maintain concentration to complete this project”. And maybe wear a pair of noise canceling headphones when you have the sign up.
Washi* January 18, 2019 at 2:57 pm Yeah, at my (open) office we have these little flags that we put up when we need to focus. Maybe worth floating the idea by some other folks in your office?
Windchime* January 18, 2019 at 9:40 pm Noise cancelling headphones are a god-send to me. Unfortunately, they also seem to be a “come and bug me!” beacon to my co-workers. I use my headphones with a white-noise app and they block out *everything*. So I was startled out of my chair the other day when someone tapped on my shoulder, only to tell me that I had dropped a paperclip on the floor. Really? You interrupted my concentration for that?
CTT* January 18, 2019 at 11:54 am I don’t mind pop-ins because I work in an area where people get a LOT of emails and often the quickest way to get someone to answer a simple question is to go by their office because there’s such a high chance they won’t see the email or won’t see it until much later. I also like seeing someone face-to-face because it makes follow-up questions easier and keeps things from being dragged out. So I tend towards liking them as needed, with the caveat that in my office it’s understood that if someone is working on something pressing, they’ll say that and the other person will respect it. Like a lot of office things, it’s about boundaries and not abusing them.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:21 pm I think it’s okay to hold up a finger to indicate “Hold on, while I finish this up” and to not look at them while they’re talking until you’ve gotten to a good breaking point in your writing. You might also want to talk to your supervisor about how you can best get uninterrupted chunks of time for writing without making people feel snubbed. If your supervisor has buy-in, she may be able to help other people make life better for you without “ruining” the pop-in culture.
RedSoxFan* January 18, 2019 at 3:05 pm I use this method quite frequently, with great success. I’m in a cubicle, and there are folks who just pop by. When I’m done I spin around and say, “whew! now you have my undivided attention. what’s up?” :-)
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm Ugh, my office is like this too. Even worse, you can literally be in a meeting with the door closed and people will walk in and join the conversation as if it’s the most natural thing in the world. I hate it sooo much.
Pencil Cup* January 18, 2019 at 12:48 pm I hate that everyone seems to expect my immediate attention (via e-mails, pop-ins, phone calls), but if I need a small piece of information or approval I might have to wait weeks or months to get it. As a particularly ridiculous example, a customer forwarded me an e-mail from a sales guy promising them a 20% discount on a specific product. The sales guy never entered the discount into our system, so I forwarded the e-mail chain to him to confirm that it was okay to enter it. After several weeks of sending him reminders (e-mails and voice mails) with no response, I asked my supervisor what to do. She said to CC her on the next e-mail, which he immediately replied to asking what the discount was for and how much it was for. I was in the middle of doing a detailed task, so figured I’d reply after I finished instead of breaking my concentration. (It took him several weeks to respond with questions that indicated he hadn’t actually read the e-mails, so it didn’t seem urgent.) After about half an hour, my supervisor came to my cubicle because she didn’t see a response from me. She kept repeating, “You need to respond. You can’t just ignore people” when I explained I was in the middle of a detailed task and was waiting until I finished to respond. She was weirdly bewildered and angry about it.
Moth* January 18, 2019 at 2:07 pm The exact same thing was driving me crazy this morning. I had someone pop into my office yesterday just before noon. I literally had my jacket on and my purse out on the desk (since I had a lunch meeting scheduled) and he explained that he had a couple of questions on projects and did I have time to talk for just a couple of minutes about them? To be fair, when I said I really only had a minute, because I had another meeting that I was headed to, he said that he would come back another time. I asked that he please send a meeting invite and I would be sure to be available to talk. Then this morning, he just randomly popped back into my office and asked if I had time to chat now. I wasn’t working on anything pressing, but I don’t work well on the fly. I like to have a little time to prepare my thoughts, make sure I have any documents around that I will need, and am ready to address questions that may come up. We have a few people in particular who like to pop in and I feel like a jerk telling them to adjust to how I prefer to work. To respond to your issue, I agree with the other commentors about putting up a sign on your cubicle. It doesn’t stop everyone, but especially if you write what time you’ll be available (e.g., “I’m in the zone until 2pm! I work better if I can focus without interruptions, so please send an email if you need to discuss anything.” Or something like that. Scripts aren’t my strong suit!). And no, I don’t think you’re being overly sensitive to the interaction or to pop-in culture in general. Some of us just don’t work well with repeated distractions. However, if it’s the culture, overly sensitive or not, it’s unlikely to change. Good luck!
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm If the reward for popping in is that your issue is seen to immediately, it encourages more people to pop in. I keep a sticky on my desktop with my to do list. If people pop in while I’m in the middle of something that I don’t want to interrupt, I finish the immediate task (typing the sentence, etc.) and then let them ask whatever. If it’s a short task I let them see me add it to my to do list. If their explanation is getting long-ish I add something like “see Anna about weird TEAPOT issue” to the to do and cut the explanation short. Then go back to whatever I was in the middle of. Either way – they know that their task is on my radar but I keep the interruptions short. Also it is then *imperative* that you do get back to them/finish the task. But I’m used to working off of the to do list. (In fact, if something isn’t on it? It has, at best, a 50% chance of getting done.) If the to do is such that I won’t get to their issue that day I try to give them a heads up when they pop in just to manage expectations.
AwkwardTurtle* January 18, 2019 at 11:45 am I just had my first official annual performance review and it went well! I just need to pick up the conversation with my supervisor about compensation. How should I approach the meeting with her about getting an X% raise and a bonus (or other benefits)? She doesn’t make the final decision as that goes to a committee.
Pam Beesly* January 18, 2019 at 1:30 pm Before I asked my supervisor for a raise, I wrote down all of the additional responsibilities I had been doing since I started, and researched common raise percentages for my position; that way, when I asked for the raise, I had the necessary info to support my request. Good luck!
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 6:34 pm Think of it as you are building her the explanation that she will give her boss when she puts in for extra money. In other words explain it as if you were talking to the big boss, but you are just giving her the words to advocate well for you.
Alice* January 18, 2019 at 11:46 am How do I run a committee that’s 50% self-starters and 50% people who want step-by-step directions, deadlines, and coaching? We’re all technically peers, but I’m the chair of the committee (not for much longer thank goodness). I’ve invited people to give feedback about our working culture within the committee, and the, er, not self starters said (this week) “if only we had very detailed procedural documentation, things would be fine.” But I drafted procedural documentation in November and invited them to read and improve it. I’m at the end of my tether with this group. Advice appreciated.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 6:49 pm Put them in pairs of 1 self-starter and 1 step-by-step person? Have the self-starters write procedures, perhaps taking turns doing it? Give the procedural people procedural work and let the self-starters have the creative work? If very detailed procedural documentation is not practical perhaps have a sit down conversation with those who asked for it. Explain why it’s not practical. (Regs change, project vary wildly, whatever.) Ask them to each make a short list of their three biggest stumbling blocks. Go over their stumbling blocks with them. Check to make sure they have the resources everyone else has. I have worked with people for YEARS before I realized they did not know there was a calculator in the desk drawer. I assumed as the rest of us did, that people would just open the drawer (shared desk) and look. I was wrong. Don’t take anything for granted. And sometimes people are just not creative thinkers. And it is amazing how they define that word “creative”. “Oh, you mean, I am allowed to use what is in the desk including the calculator?” oh boy…. sigh. In a situation like this, I would say, “Ask if you are unsure. Don’t just let the problem go on and on. Find out what the answer is.”
Alice* January 18, 2019 at 11:04 pm That’s a great story about the calculator in the drawer. I guess some people just lack curiosity and initiative, and me getting frustrated about it won’t magically embue them with those qualities. Let me repay you with another calculator story. My grandfather did his taxes himself, pre-Turbotax, using a calculator – then he double-checked everything by re-doing all the calculations by hand. Not just re-entering them in the calculator, I mean, but actually doing the arithmetics himself. If he were on my committee I’d find that level of care a little intimidating but better than “you mean I can use a calculator?”!
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 8:13 am ha! This is why I like printing calculators. I can look at the numbers and see that I entered each number correctly. I guess I am saying I so understand your grandfather. But his work was always right, I bet. My dad got US patents working with a slide rule. Calculators came along and he said, “You have to have some idea of what the answer should be, so you know if the calculator is correct. Basics such as 4 plus 4 is going to equal a number less than 10. You get an answer of 12 on the calculator you know to redo it.” I know for myself, I went through a period of getting acclimated to the work world. I grew up in a very strict environment. The answer to “can I use the calc in the drawer?” was always NO. So I drew the wrong conclusion that I was not supposed to use the things I saw laying around. This is how, years later, I landed on telling people to ask if they are not certain, or if they need something. I never jokingly tell people they can’t use something because I just don’t know what experiences they have in their background. Extending the calculator example, I don’t have any problem if they ask to use the calculator. In part, because I explain I expect them to use stuff around them. I do have a problem if months/years later they STILL do not understand to use the resources around them as necessary.
Marthooh* January 18, 2019 at 10:21 pm Put all the people who want detailed instructions on a subcommittee. Give them structure and rules and deadlines. Let the self-starters run free, as God intended.
Alice* January 18, 2019 at 11:21 pm I’m starting to think that micromanaging is even worse than being micromanaged (although I’ve never really suffered that). There’s just this paralysis, which continues even after I give very specific parameters. There’s also the fact that the people who haven’t noticed the calculators (see above) never ask questions outside of scheduled meetings – they just make no progress and wait for me to check in. Maybe I’m even starting to understand stack ranking. I’ve always been part of well-functioning teams, so it seemed crazy to toss the lowest-performing member when he is objectively good. But if you’re dealing with a crew like this, it would be really tempting to get rid of the deadwood and replace them with colleagues who pull their weight without babysitting.
Bagpuss* January 19, 2019 at 3:29 am Maybe you need to have conversations with those individuals, away from the joint meetings. BE clear that they need to take more responsibility for moving their projects forward, such as coming to you if they are unclear about the next step, not waiting for you to come and check in – us specific examples and be clear that it is a performance issue,
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 10:06 am There is nothing wrong with saying that they need to take initiative and work independently. Then give examples of things that they can move forward on their own. I would not be surprised there are other things running in the back ground, such as feeling overwhelmed or the opposite where someone is a habitual slacker. While it is a pain in the butt to dig deeper on stuff like this, if it is brought to a resolve and the recurring problems end, that can make it worth it.
My team doesn’t tell me anything* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am Would love some advice to handle this situation: About a year ago, I was transfered into a new department after my previous manager was let go. I was happy to move departments, it seemed to make sense. The problem is that while the new department is a much better fit for the work that I do, nobody seems to know what to do with me now that I’m there. We had a “touch base” meeting yesterday to update everyone on projects since one of our managers is going on vacation, and I found out that while I’ve been working on one thing, there’s a million projects I should have been involved in that nobody told me about. I asked why I hadn’t been told, and the response was, “Oh, well we told the head of the department (my boss).” A huge part of the problem is that everyone else is in shared offices/cubicles, while I have my own office. It’s in the middle of the cubes/joint offices, so people could *easily* stop by and tell me things, but they don’t. I did go and talk to my boss about it latter the meeting, and said how I was frustrated was with the situation and how unclear the supervisory paths are, and that I’m not being informed of things that are happening in my department and not having a chance to contribute. He admitted it was a problem, but said he didn’t know how to resolve it and would “give it some thought.” Does any one have any suggestions of processes that would maybe help with this, or ways to get more integrated into my actual team so that they’re telling me what they’re doing? I think part of it has to be making the team hierarchy and communication paths a lot more clear. Are there any good practical tactics I can suggest for doing that?
My team etc.* January 18, 2019 at 12:55 pm I’m looking for other work in the meantime, but my boss is open to possible solutions, but I just don’t even know what to suggest.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:25 pm Is there an HR department that might at least have a map of the company structure?
My team etc.* January 18, 2019 at 1:35 pm We do have a map of org structure, it just sorta … ends before my level. Like, our written org structure goes like this: Executives -> General Managers -> Core Managers -> Team Leads -> ???? My department is a bit different in that we don’t have “Team Leads” the way some other departments do, or they aren’t assigned, so everything is very clear up to my manager, but my manager has never really made a decision about how I actually fit into the structure. Part of the problem is that my job description is about three years out of date. I asked to update it when I moved, to reflect the work I’m actually doing, and our general manager (not my boss) said “no” for some idiotic reason. So nobody really knows what I do or how I fit into the organization structure because my job description still says I work in a completely different department doing significantly different work.
Bob* January 18, 2019 at 3:58 pm This depends a bit on your company culture and your willingness to rock the boat/your boss perhaps – but sounds like a case where you need to take the initiative in terms of communication. Maybe draft and email explaining your role, what you do and the kind of thing you should be involved with and have your boss send it out. Or send it out yourself with your bosses approval. Create an ‘unofficial’ org chart yourself and share it round ‘as an FYI’. Basically, just do what needs to be done until HR/your boss catches up? Also, how well do you know your department? Do you talk to them much in person? At the water cooler? In the canteen? You would be surprised how much of an absolute difference it can make to being effective in your role once people know you as an actual person as well.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 5:58 am I agree that it might be best to take the bull by the horns. Based on what’s described, it sounds like after the layers of management dwindle out, you’re dealing with your peers. So, I’d approach it like dealing with peers and ask if you can all sit down together so you can introduce yourself and talk about what skills you bring to the team and would help you do your job better (like, you know, being involved in the projects you need to be working on). If they’ve all been working together for a long time without you, you could also frame it like, “Tell me more about what your process is when you first start a new project?” and then find a place in the process where you want to be included. If you’re working with a bunch of people from different departments who don’t report to your same boss, then it’s harder.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 5:48 pm Simplest fix: When colleagues tell boss you need to be on a project, he tells them to tell you, then follows up with them. I don’t know why he’s turning this into Apollo 13.
Decima Dewey* January 18, 2019 at 4:24 pm He doesn’t sound open to the possible solution of stopping by your office, calling your extension, sending you an email, etc., and *telling you when someone’s asked that you work on New Project.*
Llellayena* January 18, 2019 at 3:53 pm When they tell your boss about these projects, does he know the information should go to you? If so, he should redirect them to talk with you. Coworker: Boss I’m starting on X project. Boss: OK, go talk with *My team and get them involved. If he doesn’t know, that needs to be a convo with him You: Boss, when you hear about X type of projects can you direct people to talk with me? Then he can proceed with the first script. And revisit the job description too “Boss, not having a updated job description is making people confused about what projects should come to me. Can we update that in the next 2 weeks so I can explain my role better to my coworkers?”
Topangela* January 18, 2019 at 11:47 am I am going to have my Master of Public Administration degree this May and am considering moving abroad (currently in the US). Anyone have any tips how to get a job abroad as a US citizen? I’m applying to UN jobs, but obviously can’t put all my eggs in that basket, even though they have tons of openings. I feel very open to most any other country, which feels like a good thing (options!) and also a very overwhelming one.
Kimmybear* January 18, 2019 at 10:06 pm What do you want to do? International development projects on civil society or democracy building? Consulting for public agencies? Methods for finding work abroad will vary greatly depending on what you want to do.
blackcat* January 18, 2019 at 11:48 am Folks who travel for work, how are you handling delays due to TSA callouts? (I do not blame TSA folks AT ALL for not coming to work when they aren’t getting paid) I’m traveling for work next week, and I’m hearing that lines are getting worse day by day. Has that been your experience? If so, how bad are things going to be by next week?! I had hoped to work in the morning before an afternoon flight, but I’m worried I may need to get to the airport like 3 hours before the flight.
Mimmy* January 18, 2019 at 12:10 pm I’ll be following this thread – I’m traveling to Orlando for a conference a week from Sunday and I am freaking out as this shutdown drags on. I have the PreCheck thing, so hopefully that will minimize waiting time, but I do worry about terminal closures and flight cancelations.
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm If it were me I’d absolutely err on the side of caution and get there really, really early. Bring work instead and work from the airport if you get through security quicker. Since you’ll have absolutely no control or way to predict the length of the lines, there’s a definite risk of missing your flight if you don’t have a good amount of time allotted just in case. And I’m not sure if this is true, but I think I read that at some airports the lack of full TSA staffing has led to precheck lines not being open all the time, so don’t count on that to cut your wait.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm No…there as been debunking of this recently. It’s only up a percentage point for call outs now verse last year at this time. It will depend greatly on your fights and terminals you are going through! My friend just had an impromptu flight for a quick business trip. He said it was all pretty normal and flew out of a major California hub. Check if your airport is collecting food and giftcards for TSA, SEATAC is :( I’m taking some non perishables down there today.
Penguin2* January 18, 2019 at 2:06 pm TSOs can’t accept gift cards. They CAN accept food and other items, but gift cards are a no (and would probably get added to the stuff that TSA sends to Auction every year after its left at checkpoint and not recovered).
Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister* January 18, 2019 at 1:22 pm I’m currently on a 4-day, 3-city business trip. So far, my experiences at two airports (SEA and DEN) have been totally fine. I’ve been leaving myself extra time just in case, but I haven’t noticed an impact at all. That said, I’m mentally thinking through a backup plan in case there’s a strike or something, but so far it’s been smooth sailing.
blackcat* January 18, 2019 at 1:41 pm They aren’t allowed to strike, by law. I wish they could! It pisses me off that they have to work with no pay. That’s reassuring! I’m hoping that this stupid shutdown ends by next week for a bunch of reasons, but I really don’t want to be in a position where I can’t get where I’m going…
An Archivist* January 18, 2019 at 2:00 pm I traveled last week (came home on Sunday) and I didn’t notice any difference. I was traveling between D.C. and Indianapolis. The snowstorm caused delays, but not TSA!
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm Absenteeism is up 3% relative to the same week last year; last week it was up 1.5%. My friends who travel have had mixed results. This week, an ATL -> DC flight had a 2hr+ security check line, but a Denver -> CA was 10 minutes. Maybe call the airport and ask?
Llellayena* January 18, 2019 at 3:58 pm Not sure where I heard/read this so I could be completely wrong, but I think each airport has a way to check what the estimated security wait time is? If you check at the approximate time of day you would be leaving it might give you an idea. And I think TSA delays are worse in some airports than others, so check local reports.
There's an app for that!* January 18, 2019 at 9:03 pm I just discovered this week that TSA has an app – MyTSA. It will find the closest airport(s) and give you information on flight delays and wait times, including PreCheck lanes. Right now for my home airport (major east coast city) it says “TSA PreCheck lane is not available at this time. Please show your TSA PreCheck boarding pass to receive expedited screening in a standard lane.”
DCR* January 19, 2019 at 5:37 pm It really varies by airport. It took me an hour to get through security at one airport yesterday with precheck, but I haven’t had more than a 10-20 wait anywhere else (granted a lot of those were airports where I have been able to walk right up to the precheck agent in the past).
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 11:49 am I wrote a while ago about how the department move went. Summary? Months of “you’ll move eventually” followed by “OMG YOU MUST MOVE MONDAY” …and although we packed up on Monday they didn’t actually move us until Thursday. Four weeks later the powers that be still hadn’t determined where we could put the 20 (!) file cabinets of control copies we’re legally bound to store. One week ago my manager was told she must move immediately — she’d be given an “executive” office because it would fit 12 file cabinets along one wall, and she’d just have to stop using the oldest ones & the ones that aren’t agency-controlled. Rough but…okay. So we gritted our teeth to send six cabinets to offsite storage. Except she’s spent a week trying to get approved for that — and there’s no budget. Let alone boxes. Suddenly letting us have 3-6 months to slowly scan & recycle what’s in there becomes more reasonable. So now they’re sending her jumping through hoops to figure out where to put 6 file cabinets. There’s a point where you realize that someone really missed the point of those process-mapping exercises we all did during our SixSigma training a few years ago. :( “Does this change affect someone else?” Ayup.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 1:20 pm And now I learn that the new area of the building has a shiny new problem with things being pilfered after hours. Charming, no? Time to rearrange my two-drawer file cabinet for secure storage.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 11:51 am As in, you need alcohol to deal with faculty? ;) (I feel you, I work IT at a university.)
Aphrodite* January 18, 2019 at 12:24 pm Not me. But particularly after this week, not a bad idea. : ) No, this involves a faculty member and … um, a liking for the stuff.
Forrest Rhodes* January 18, 2019 at 8:01 pm Reminds me of a certain prof in a 400-level literature class I took. He was a great guy and an involving, challenging, and interesting teacher; but was a little too fond of liquid lunches. Word around the English department was that we’d do better if we avoided taking any of his classes that started after about 1 p.m. One day he spent an entire class discussing Tom Wolfe, with special emphasis on Wolfe’s newest (at the time) book, “Vanfire of the Bonities.” Every time. A couple of students had to quietly leave the room because they couldn’t stifle their giggles; he never noticed. A good teacher, nonetheless.
Admin of Sys* January 18, 2019 at 11:51 am Motivation in the Morning? My work is amazingly casual about start times – a coworker often doesn’t arrive until after 11a unless there’s a meeting, and other folks show up at 6a and leave at 2:30p. As long as you get the work done and show up for meetings, there’s really not much of a rule about what hours we work. Which is awesome! However, I’ve always had trouble getting a start on the day, and the lack of external pressure is making my start time slip later and later. My boss doesn’t mind, but I do – I want to get in before 9a but I just keep missing the mark. It doesn’t seem to matter when the alarm is set – I’ll get up early, I just get distracted or read email or start laundry and end up leaving later than planned. So – Does anyone have ideas for how to get myself out of the house earlier?
Admin of Sys* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm I’ve been trying that the last few weeks but so far it’s not working – I mean, it goes off, but I’m in the middle of something and it takes me 10 minutes to disengage and head out, or I ended up with such a randomized morning that it goes off and I realize I haven’t even taken a shower yet.
anonagain* January 18, 2019 at 12:33 pm I find it can help to get up later. If I am trying to leave at 8:30am and I wake up at 8:05, I don’t mess around. If I wake up at 6:30, I start doing all sorts of unrelated and distracting things, because I think I have plenty of time. Then I end up late. Do you have a set number of hours to work each day? Another option might be to schedule something in the evenings to make your start time feel less malleable. I would recommend something that would create (constructive) external pressure rather than something that you can easily move around, since you mentioned that your boss’s flexibility is making it harder for you to stick to your schedule. Think joining a running club instead of planning to run on your own.
Washi* January 18, 2019 at 3:03 pm OR if you’re ready early, just leave! That’s been my major trick for being more punctual – I wake up in the morning so I have pretty much exactly as much time as I need, and then if I’m ready early, I leave early.
Drax* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm Treat it like a hard start time. Right now, it’s fine if you miss it so you’re not inclined to rush to make it. Frame it in your head that you start work at 9 am and need to be there ready at 9 or you are late. I am the same way. I have a lot of flexibility on my job but I had to train myself that I don’t or I will go back to bed until I’m ready to get up.
Seeking Second Childhood* January 18, 2019 at 1:26 pm Find something else you like to do in the morning on a schedule: Morning lap-swim sessions at the school pool. Be in the car to listen to your favorite crazy DJ routine daily at X o’clock. If you drive, what time do you need to leave to NOT get stuck behind school buses? If you’re on public transit, what time is the express train/bus or simply the one that hits the least amount of traffic? Whatever you do, don’t open AskAManager until you’re at the other end of the trip. ;)
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 2:47 pm Routine. Same routine, every day, as much as you reasonably can. – Keep things that need to leave the house with you (keys, ID) in the same place, near the door – Leave the things that tend to be open ended out of the routine – no ‘I’ll just log onto SocialMediaOfChoice for a minute’, ever. Taking out trash or loading a dishwasher / laundry, ok, those are 5 minutes and closed ended. But no ‘pick up the living room’, and any ‘play with pet’ needs to be more specific, like ‘walk dog from here to there and back again.’
E* January 18, 2019 at 3:25 pm Set yourself a reward. For example, if you leave the house on time you get your favorite coffee drink on the way. Or whatever works for you. Once you’ve got into the habit after a few weeks, it will be easier.
Not So NewReader* January 18, 2019 at 7:02 pm Tell yourself that reading email and laundry and any other distractions are for after work hours. I like to get up at the same time every day, all seven days. I find that it sets a rhythm for my week and my life. I would break this circular problem by getting up with just enough time to get ready for work, maybe a short period of time to do a couple short household chores. And make it a habit to leave at the same time each morning. I often throw the laundry in the washer before I leave for work. (I never leave the dryer running though.) This probably won’t work for everyone, but I find I can get myself moving by figuring out what time I will leave work. If I want to leave at Z time then I must be in there by Y time. Usually that nails it for me.
Windchime* January 18, 2019 at 9:50 pm I’m one of those early morning people; I have to be leaving the house by 5:15 or else I will spend hours in traffic. In my past life, I would get up, make tea, read news, get distracted, etc. , all before getting ready for work. In this life, I don’t do that. I shower and do my hair at night. I wake up at 5:45 and immediately start getting ready for work. I talk to (and pet) the cat while the flat iron heats up. No tea, no internet. Quick makeup and get dressed, and only then do I go downstairs. I pour a glass of OJ and make toast, then I’m out the door. I drink my juice and eat my toast on the road. Getting up and jumping right into getting ready is the only way I can make this schedule work.
Doodle* January 20, 2019 at 5:02 pm Set a meeting with someone for 20 – 30 minutes after you want to be in the office. Feeling obligated to someone else may get you moving where setting an obligation with yourself is not working.
CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am I have a co-worker who’s been sucked into an MLM (Tranont) and has been doing it on the side for months. Last weekend she went to one of their rah-rah seminars in Las Vegas with her husband, and when she came back on Tuesday she promptly quit because “”the opportunity the be mentored by so many people who believe in me while creating wealth for my family” was just something she can’t pass up. Also, this company sells CBD oil with trace amounts of THC, which she plans on using and could potentially cause her to fail a drug test (we’re in the pharma industry, so we get tested frequently and randomly). She’s 30 years old, has 3 kids under the age of 8, and her husband doesn’t work – his garnishments for child support for his other kids wiped out his pay for the last couple of years, so they decided it would be better if he stayed home with the kids he has with her. They believe that they can write their ENTIRE rent off since she’ll running a business out of her house, and her car payment can be written off because she’ll be using it to drive back and forth to “meetings”. She plans on working under the table for cash at a family member’s nail salon and claiming only what the MLM business makes as income, and she purposely intends to write everything she can off so that she’ll never owe income tax. Also, now her wages won’t be garnished for child support either, so I guess that’s a big FU to his other kids. I believe she is also planning on applying for state insurance and other public assistance. We’ve tried to point out to her that all of these plans run the risk of her and/or he husband winding up in jail for tax evasion, welfare fraud and failure to pay child support, but she’s convinced she’s figured out the magic solution and we’re all jealous haters because we haven’t figured out how to beat the system like she has. One of the things that kills me is that when this house of cards inevitably falls, it will be very unlikely she’ll be able to get a job like her current one again. She only has a high school diploma, but roles like our usually require a 4 year college degree. She was able to move into this position by starting on our production floor and slowly working her way up to a decently paid, customer facing office job. She’s become an absolute whiz at Excel, Powerpoint, data analysis, etc., and it just breaks my heart to see her toss it all away on a scam.
Michelle* January 18, 2019 at 12:47 pm Me, too. She’s throwing away everything she worked for and her kids (and his!) are going to end up paying for the mistake as well.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 8:19 pm She’s helping a deadbeat dad neglect her children’s siblings. Wow. Won’t the judge just pull their 1040s and order her husband to pay? If you want to take two last stabs: there’s a documentary on a particular MLM and you can point out that not everyone can be at the top of the pyramid. It’s like encouraging people to start their own businesses. Not everyone can be a CEO because it’s not sustainable.
MissGirl* January 18, 2019 at 12:35 pm Sad, but it sounds like this is a choice she has thoroughly thought out. Also, it appears she isn’t entirely ethical in her life decisions so if consequences do come her way, she isn’t entirely blameless. She’s looking for a shortcut to life and thinks she’s found it.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 2:49 pm +1. I’m actually *relieved* she’s got the under-the-table income, because her three kids are going to need it, but her husband SUCKS for not supporting his others.
This is nuts!* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm I want to show your old coworker this article: https://www.aarp.org/aarp-foundation/our-work/income/multilevel-marketing/
Tigger* January 18, 2019 at 12:47 pm Wow… I feel bad because in my experience MLM prey on people like her, but at the end of the day you tried to help and she didn’t listen. :/ I feel bad for all the kids
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:57 pm I am not understanding all the sympathy for her. She sounds like a cheat and a scammer. She deserves whatever comes her way, including hefty fines and jail time.
Rebecca* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm Me too. “Also, now her wages won’t be garnished for child support either, so I guess that’s a big FU to his other kids.” Yep. The “other kids” who the courts deemed worthy of receiving money from this woman’s husband aren’t getting support because he’s chosen not to work. That’s just not fair or morally right. I feel bad for the kids here, his kids from previous relationships, and the 3 kids they have together. And I want to give the 2 alleged adults in this scenario a big Gibbs slap to the backs of their heads. Ugh. The kids are the ones who are going to bear the brunt of all of this nonsense.
CatCat* January 18, 2019 at 1:20 pm Yeah, the people I feel bad for are all the kids who are going to suffer consequences from these bad life decisions by adults.
CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night* January 18, 2019 at 1:25 pm Unfortunately we think a lot of this is coming from her husband’s influence. He’s 10 years older than her and has a history of being sketchy and lazy. She’s definitely not blameless though, and I can definitely say that I don’t look at her the same way anymore. I never would have believed she’d display such a lack of integrity.
Agnodike* January 19, 2019 at 10:35 am We surround ourselves with people who tell us what we want to hear. If she’s married to a guy who thinks the world owes him one, she thinks the world owes her one, too.
CatCat* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Sometimes in life, we need to learn lessons the hard way. That’s the path she has chosen.
Kivrin* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am Today is my boss’s last day! I’ve never had a boss leave or otherwise part ways. I work in nonprofit fundraising, and she’s our department director. She gave one week notice. I’m relieved she’s going as she was not effective at either the job or in leading and managing – it seemed clear she was going to be let go if she didn’t find something else. I’m excited for the possibilities. Getting a new boss, though, always makes me feel a bit queasy – I’ve had some bad, bad bosses. I trust our department, ED, and org but I still feel some anxiety as to what happens when you don’t have a boss (I have a coworker with a more senior title who may be who I “report to” in the mean time – like literally, give my reports to her, and she’ll lead meetings? She may end up being our new boss! Or if the ED will support us more directly?). I’m sure it’s different in every organization and often depends on circumstances. Does anyone have advice?
Jack Be Nimble* January 18, 2019 at 11:52 am Any experience in creating or running employee resource groups? I’m at a non-profit with approximately 150 employees in our main office, and I’m part of a small group tasked with creating employee resource groups for the organization at large.
Other Side of the Table* January 18, 2019 at 11:53 am I’ve been sitting in on interviews this week, and it’s been very interesting being on the other side of the table. We have several positions open on our team so we have a rolling interview schedule. We’re not weighing candidates against each other but only as a fit for our team. My managers have a high standard and would rather the position be empty than filled with the wrong candidate. (These aren’t exactly how we worded the questions. Trying to be a bit vague.) Some things that have led to a rejection: Sidestepping or misunderstanding the question: We have a question that gets to weaknesses and how you’re working on improving them. Candidate kept saying there was nothing they stood in need to improve. We asked what sets you apart from coworkers (strengths) but we specifically said don’t mention a program skill. Promptly listed the programs they’re better at. Doing poorly on our exam portion: We have an at-home question that shouldn’t take more than 30 minutes and you can use whatever tools at your disposal. We’re actually okay if you don’t do 100% as long as you show some potential. The concern came when candidate did poorly but highlighted that skill as an expertise with several years experience. Refusing to answer a question: This may seem like a no-brainer but we ask an analysis question that requires dealing with some ambiguity. We say upfront there is no right or wrong answer; we just want to see your thought process. Two people flat out said, “I don’t have enough information so my answer is, there is no answer.” One seemed impressed that this was their answer like it was a trick question they saw through. Bad mouthing a manager: We ask what kind of management they like and one guy went off on how is current manager micromanages him and said how they don’t trust him. This candidate could be right about their manager but we have no way of knowing if the manager is right to not trust or is a micromanager. Other things that didn’t mean rejection but I noticed they made poor impressions: One candidate kept apologizing and for things that didn’t require apologizing for. Unfortunately one candidate smelled poorly (not a culture issue). My managers didn’t let that sway them but mentioned it would have to be discussed if an offer made. Complaining about things that are a common part of our work.
Individual Contributor* January 18, 2019 at 12:35 pm Thank you, this is really helpful! Bad mouthing a manager, I had one interviewer try to get me to say something negative about a past employer, not saying your team does this but I just wanted to put it out there that some interviewers do! “Wow, you worked in industry X, people in that industry are known to be difficult to work with/mean. You must’ve worked with some really bad people.” “Actually, I worked with two ladies who had over 20 years of experience in the industry so I learned a lot from them.” Sidestepping, I was on the interviewer panel for interns at Old Job (there were 3 of us total) “Why do you want an internship in llama grooming?” Interviewee starts giving us a broad reason for wanting any internship in general such as “to learn new things” and “to start my career in Industry Y.”
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 12:49 pm On the bright side, it’s nice when candidates give you the appropriate information in an interview to evaluate their fit for the job. Obviously you hope to find people who give you the positive aspects that help you to select them, but I’m still also happy when people can give me enough information in the interview that helps to deselect them as well.
Other Side of the Table* January 18, 2019 at 12:56 pm Yes, one example I didn’t share was the candidate who said attention to detail is one of his weaknesses and his manager has spoken to him about it. I deal with analyses that can be in the billions of dollars so one small mistake can swing the output by a wide margin. We were quite glad to know this about him (I secretly wondered if he’d chosen the wrong profession).
TheOtherNerd* January 18, 2019 at 3:24 pm A recent employee in my industry left her job juuuuust ahead of being fired, after a long history of disciplinary actions and PIPs that she couldn’t follow. At an interview for New Job, she brought along all of her disciplinary actions and write-ups from Old Job and presented them for the interviewing committee to examine. She was NOT hired. WHYFORTHELUVVAJESUS would you do this??
Windchime* January 19, 2019 at 2:35 pm We interviewed a candidate recently who had a resume over 10 pages long. It was all single-spaced paragraphs. I scanned the first couple of pages and then thought, “I still don’t know what this guy actually *does* every day.” The interview itself went OK, but I found him a little ….. cocky or something. After the interview, the thank-you email arrived and it was very long, containing a bullet-pointed list that outlined why he would be so awesome. It was way, way, way too much. It reminded me of the time I mentioned I liked kiwi-strawberry Snapple on a first date, and the guy brought me an entire case of Snapple on our second date. Too much, too soon.
JHS* January 18, 2019 at 11:54 am So I’m looking for getting a bit more focus in my career, and my government job will pay for me to do a course. I’m thinking HR for a variety of reasons, but part of it is because I like a job where I’ll get an opportunity to answer people’s questions and solve problems for them, and I have a lot of experience talking down stressed out people. I know HR works for the employer, but the range of HR careers we have means I might be able to find my way into one that’s quite employee focused (like our EAP program). Even if I don’t, the work itself appeals to me, as I like finding out how things work. Does anyone here in HR have anything they wish they’d known before starting out or any general advice? We’ll be getting the list of courses available soon, so anything would be appreciated (and Allison’s various advice on being in HR and friendships has helped me view that particular downside and be prepared for it).
Sollux* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 am Hey all, question about promotions and FMLA leave. I have been on intermittent FMLA leave for about a month now, and anticipating it lasting 3-4 more months. Around that time or a little later (4-6 months from now), a position will open that will be a huge promotion from my current one. Prior to this flare-up of my chronic illness, my boss implied I should apply for it. I get stellar reviews and that hasn’t changed with my sickness – my bosses have been extremely understanding and willing to work with me. However, I’m concerned that they will think I’m less capable of the (more demanding, more technical) job because I miss so much work. (This is temporary, though! I’ve been here a year and a half and it’s only been happening for 3 months.) So, I guess my question is…is my concern valid? I know it’s not legal to punish me for FMLA, but that doesn’t change people’s actual impressions, you know? Should I bring this up with my boss when the position opens up or keep quiet about it? Thank you all in advance, this blog has been hugely helpful to me, including the commentariat.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 12:03 pm Apply for the promotion, I don’t think you need to bring up your FMLA or health. I can’t guarantee these things never affect people’s impressions…but it sounds like you are working with a good group of people who are reasonable and understanding. With people like that, if something is truly an issue, they will bring it up. Anecdatum: I got a huge raise recently while I was on maternity leave/FMLA. It was a “market rate adjustment,” but very rarely does my company do those, and my boss really pushed for me to have it. And I was definitely NOT on top of my game work-wise during my pregnancy! But I have a good boss and department who know me, and they felt I deserved it.
AnonEMoose* January 18, 2019 at 11:57 am How many times (especially within a relatively short period of time – like, 2 months) would you pitch in to help another team complete their work before you started giving the situation some serious side-eye? The other team does work that’s related to the stuff I normally do – think different portions of a long process, but their stuff is more processing things and mine is (for lack of a better word) higher level. They’re now asking for help for about the 4th time in 2 months. Which seems to me a bit…excessive? And I have to wonder what exactly is going on that they’re needing this much help. I admit that, while I’m not opposed to helping out once in awhile, this seems to be becoming a pattern, and I don’t want to find myself with a chunk of their work semi-permanently. I’ve mentioned to my boss that this seems to be happening more often than seems ideal, and he says there is longer-term stuff in motion for some of their stuff. But I’m getting a little tired of being their back-up option in the meantime. What does everyone else think?
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am I personally would figure twice. Once, you’re helpless. Twice, you just need a wiser eye watching you. After that, why haven’t you figured this out?
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 11:58 am More of a vent with willingness to take suggestions on how to handle this. I’m a teacher, and yesterday I spent my planning hour as well as all my contract time afterschool setting up substitute lesson plans (for an entire half day this morning and putting those plans together still takes forever). I am a print job away from being finished when our Tech Person wanders in. She is not specifically trained as a tech person being but another teacher who took on the other hat, but it’s a small, rural-ish school and she can do the basics. I think I know more than her, though. She announces she needs to install something on my computer. Oh, but I say, I just need to print out my sub lesson plan that I might take my kids to the dentist tomorrow morning. No, I need to do this now and it will take all of thirty seconds, she says. I sigh. Fine. I walk out of the room for two minutes to gather some things and when I return, she is panic-stricken. Having not liked my extended desktop screen setup, she had attempted to “fix” it… and had somehow managed to wipe out a bunch of files including my sub plans. Yes, I should have quickly hit print or stood up for myself. Still, I’m annoyed because there went another hour of my day.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm That sucks! And that “tech person” needs to work on her people skills. This is not a tech issue. This is a people issue. I’ve worked in tech for a few years, and I’ve messed up things before. It comes with the territory. Any tech person who says she’s never screwed anything up accidentally is lying. But it’s not about her accidentally deleting your files. It’s about her communication and whole approach. She announces she needs to install something on my computer. I never tell people I need to install “something” on their computers. I will tell them exactly what it is. I usually won’t go into all the technical details unless they’re curious, but people should know what you’re doing or attempting to do. No, I need to do this now and it will take all of thirty seconds, she says. There is no urgent tech thing that needs to be done that can’t wait 30 seconds. The only scenarios in which I can something needing to be done right now and not 30 seconds from now involve shutting down the computer immediately, not installing something: * Someone fell for a scam in which a third-party claims to want to fix something on your computer and asks you to pay them and help them remote into your computer (shut down your computer immediately) * You just deleted some files and need to recover them (shut down your computer immediately) * Your computer’s battery is expanding and might possibly explode (shut down your computer immediately) Having not liked my extended desktop screen setup, she had attempted to “fix” it It’s not really the tech person’s job to change your extended desktop setup unless you ask for it. IT isn’t supposed to be managing people’s preferences. On top of that, if there’s any good IT infrastructure in place, most things that need to be installed on your computer can be done remotely or on a schedule, instead of someone having to sit down at your computer and install it in front of you. I’m so sorry you had to go through this. Teaching is tough enough, and especially when you’re trying to prep for a substitute.
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 12:23 pm Yeah, during my commute home I kept thinking how poorly that was done. She’s an excellent teacher, one I’ve stolen many a technique from, and she does have this tough brashness that incredibly works for teaching, but not necessarily in all social situations. The desktop thing drove me nuts. I was perfectly happy with my system. And, as it turns out, there was a deeper reason for the setup I had forgotten about. Due to another device in the room inhabited by gremlins even the head district tech guy can’t cast out, I need to have this extended screen setup as is in order to operate my Smartboard. (It pleases the gremlins). I just can’t figure out why she felt she needed to change it!
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm I just can’t figure out why she felt she needed to change it! You probably don’t have the mental bandwidth right now, but if you do get a chance, you may want to have a sit-down with her, and in the calmest way possible, explain why she shouldn’t have done that while also asking her why she felt she needed to. Or, if you don’t feel comfortable doing that, you may even want to bring it up to her supervisor, whomever that is. I try to give the best customer service I can to my teachers and staff, but I do occasionally screw up. And if I do, I fully expect and even want teachers to talk to my boss about what happened, so I can do better in the future.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 2:59 pm Yeah, at the very least, you should be able to say to her, ‘people put their desktops certain ways for valid reasons, you should never change someone’s desktop when doing support.’ I mean, seriously, if you’re tech enough to do the IT, you’re tech enough to adjust to others’ tech set ups.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:02 pm You’re taking this very well. I would have hit the roof, and then complained to whoever is in charge. She was wrong ALL the way around, but messing with your desktop and fucking it up? NO.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 4:40 pm No kidding. I still can’t figure out how futzing with settings deleted actual unrelated files. Files don’t just disappear (assuming that some version was saved at some point but I suspect RoadsLady did do regular saves while working). Like, maybe in a restart they don’t open automatically or whatever, but the underlying file is still there unless it’s been deleted on purpose.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:30 pm You are taking this very well. I would have hit the roof and then complained over her head to whomever.
The Other Dawn* January 18, 2019 at 11:59 am I have a question regarding cover letters when you’re sending your resume out, but not applying to a specific position. Several people I know in my industry suggested that I send my resume to a few well-known industry vendors. These are vendors that either my current or former bank worked with in the past, so the vendor would know the bank name and I’ve likely worked closely with them from time to time. I have a contact at one vendor; however, I don’t know what I should say in the cover letter about that. My former bank used the vendor and I talked to my contact on different matters throughout the relationship, so I assume I should mention that, but I don’t want it to come across as though she told me to send in my resume–she didn’t. And I no longer have any contacts at the other vendor, but my bank used them for a total of 12 years so it’s possible there is someone there who remembers either me or the bank, but I don’t know that person or people since it’s a very large company. TLDR: I’ve never “cold called” a company for a job, so I’m not sure how to go about the cover letter.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:32 pm Is there a position open, and you don’t know what it is? Or you don’t even know if there’s a position open?
The Other Dawn* January 18, 2019 at 2:52 pm I don’t see any open positions. I’ve had a few people tell me to just send my resume in along with a cover letter, mentioning that I’m looking for a job and what kind, my qualifications, etc.
Doesn’t work* January 19, 2019 at 10:53 pm Personally, I’ve found that unless you’re a special snowflake (have a unique background in whatever industry you are applying for), “cold calling” goes nowhere. Signed, Someone who attempted cold emailing early in her career and received less than 5 interviews from cold calling.
Laura H.* January 18, 2019 at 12:00 pm Well. Two weeks after finishing my seasonal stint and I think I’m ok… still a little miffed at myself that I didn’t put my best foot forward, but oh well. Had an interview Tuesday, promptly sent the thank you email and my references. (Separate emails and references were sent closer to CoB, as I had to ensure they were still ok with getting contacted) Now I wait and pop a few more applications in. No news is good news at the moment. The only bright sides of this are: I don’t have to gamble not getting time off for an upcoming weekend event. And that I can focus on all the loose ends I have for said event and hopefully minimize the “running around like a frazzled person” that always leads up to events like this.
MMM* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm I’m sure I’m probably overthinking this, but what’s the protocol on asking for a break during a long interview/series of interviews? I have an interview next week that consists of meeting with various people and an assessment over the course of 3.5 hours, and from the schedule they sent it looks like it’s basically planned out to the minute in terms of who I’m meeting with, where, and at what time. Ideally I’d love a snack break in there (lol) but even just to request to use the bathroom, can I just stop them and ask? I would try and plan it for a transition between interviewers if possible, but I don’t want to throw off their very detailed itinerary.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm I think something along the lines of “Thank you so much for putting this schedule together. I’m very much looking forward to speaking with ____ and doing _____. Is it possible, without throwing things off too much, to work a short break in there?” The other thing you can do is just ask for a break during the day when you actually do need it. Like, legitimately, if you need to go to the bathroom, say “It’s a pleasure meeting you. Do you mind if I stop by the restroom quickly before we chat?”
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm I think that you should ask for it when it’s needed, and the way they react might tell you volumes about the culture. I also have to plan schedules out for long interviews, and even though it’s not necessarily noted, we give the candidate a few minutes between each meeting. Maybe I need to rewrite that to include breaks.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm Can you contact the person you were in contact with to schedule this ‘marathon’? If so, you might comment to them that you felt the schedule looked very full and you wondered if there would be some time for a break in-between meetings. I’ve found that with the ‘marathon’ interviews, where I had to speak with 8 or 9 different people over 3-4 hours, some interviews didn’t go the full 30 minutes, I was offered bottled water up front and by at least two interviewers, and several asked if I needed to use the restroom.
Klaymen* January 18, 2019 at 4:14 pm I had a full day interview with a tight schedule like this, and almost everyone I interviewed with offered me a drink and asked if I needed a quick break at the end of their time block. Obviously this varies by company, but unless they were very uptight I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem to ask when it comes up
Ask a Manager* Post authorJanuary 18, 2019 at 4:26 pm I actually would not email about it ahead of time; it risks coming across as high maintenance, especially if people think you’re asking for something longer than a bathroom break. Instead, in between meetings, just say, “I need to duck into the restroom before the next meeting starts.”
Bostonian* January 18, 2019 at 4:36 pm My company interviews people like this. If I’m one of the interviewers, I always ask the person I’m interviewing before we start our 30-minute session if they need a quick break. You will probably have a similarly conscientious person ask before they start. Otherwise, I would say it’s ok for you to be the one to bring it up! Ask someone at the beginning (after introductions) of the meeting if you can quickly use the restroom first. They should be fine with that. I think it may be odd to ask for a snack break before you get there.
MMM* January 18, 2019 at 6:33 pm Thanks everyone! Realistically I don’t think I’ll *need* a bathroom break in that amount of time, but would honestly just appreciate one if even just to stretch and clear my head since it is quite a marathon of interviews. I’ll definitely try to take advantage of any slot that finishes early, if there are any, or just during a transition
Wild Bluebell* January 19, 2019 at 11:27 am I had a 3 hour interview recently, basically 3 slots back-to-back. And in between those slots they asked me whether I wanted to use a bathroom or have a drink of water. If you’re meeting with several people, you can always say “Do you mind if I use a bathroom?” in between sessions with different people.
Ranting* January 18, 2019 at 12:02 pm I’m so sick of this scenario: Boss or team leader asks the team to complete a small task by a certain date. No one does it but me. (Even my boss or the team leader, sometimes!) We get another email “Hey everyone, only one person has done this task! Please do it!” Crickets. And then a meeting is called so that we can do the task together. The five minute task, that I’ve already done. In a 45 minute meeting. ARGGHHH! This happens over and over again. I’m ALWAYS the only person to do it without being nagged. Always. And then I get eye rolls from my teammates because I did it, or they will preemptively make snide comments about how I will do something right away to make them all look bad. I’m not the one making you look bad, guys! You’re doing that all by yourselves! Not that it matters, because my manager doesn’t do anything about it at all. Except sometimes blame me for my colleagues not doing something when I’m the one who asks them to do it. It isn’t that I have the smallest workload—far from it. It is just laziness from them. It really pisses me off and is demoralizing. End rant.
Sloan Kittering* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm My goodness, I would at least skip the working session and be like, “since my share is done, I’m going to skip this.” You don’t want to give the impression that you’re not busy with more important stuff like everybody else and that’s why it’s so easy for you to get small tasks done on time.
Ranting* January 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm I would if I could! But it is not optional. I am required to go. :(
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 1:43 pm Then I would wait until this required meeting to do this task. Deadlines be damned! Or, bring something to work on in the meeting while the others are doing the task you already completed.
BuildMeUp* January 18, 2019 at 1:54 pm I agree. It sounds like this is just the way things work: task gets assigned, everyone waits, eventually a meeting is scheduled and the task is completed then. Maybe try to mentally reframe it as being due at the meeting? It’s ridiculous, but it doesn’t sound like it’s going to change.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 8:36 pm Stop doing the tasks or skip the meeting. After all, you’re “required” to do these tasks it’s okay to put off until the meeting.
Miss M* January 18, 2019 at 12:03 pm No job updates over here with finding one that’s less homophobic and crazy and more ethical, BUT I have been networking and am really proud of myself! I even got in contact with someone who interviewed me (made it to the final round, but didn’t get offered) about a local event and they are excited to meet up with me. That was a pleasant surprise, since my morale and self confidence have been low in the job. I have been getting good feedback at work, I started volunteering to keep up my skills in teapots, found a new therapist, and overall, even though work isn’t good, I’m starting to compartmentalize. So, even if it takes a little while to move on, I think I will be ok. I’m working on making supports for myself and my partner is also supportive. It’s also awesome to come onto this community and read the comments, so thanks again! One question for the AAM commenters, I’m meeting up with someone in my field for coffee for the first time. How do I say “Yes, my job is….different….but I’ve started to look for new ones as I don’t think it’s a good long term fit.” I don’t want to weasel any job opportunities out of her because she might not have any, and I also don’t want to seem like I give up easily, but I don’t think it would look good to explain all the horrible things going on at work. Is there a good script for this?
StellaBella* January 18, 2019 at 2:09 pm Good luck to you, I know it can be hard. In terms of networking and asking – I have found recently that if I say, “In the next year, I am looking to stretch myself a bit and move into a role that is different and more challenging, specifically in X (y, z etc). I’d love it if you heard of anything that you’d think of me” – but be specific. Also maybe ask if she knows if there would be mentors you could connect with, too, in the field?
Miss M* January 18, 2019 at 4:59 pm Thank you! That sounds like a good way to frame it. I’ll ask and see if there’s any mentors they would know of as well.
Software guy* January 18, 2019 at 12:05 pm Anyone have any tips on describing accomplishments on your resume when your job is basically doing an endless stream of modifications and bug requests for software? I implement changes, my fixes generally work the first time around. Work load varies, so the number of requests done in a period of time isn’t very meaningful. There’s no direct connection between my job and revenue.
Glomarization, Esq.* January 18, 2019 at 12:59 pm (Source: I was in software before I was in lawyering.) It’ll depend on the job you’re applying for. But first, I’ll push back a little on the idea that your work has no connection to revenue. If it didn’t, you wouldn’t still have a job! If you’re looking for a programming job, then using the word “debug” and describing some examples in detail is just fine. Then explain how your debugging work improved and streamlined the software. Comment on how you helped your team/unit achieve goals, reach benchmarks, etc. If you’re trying to get out of coding, then talk about how your work “optimized processes,” saved time/resources, and reduced waste. Mention any recognition you’ve gotten from your team or management. Definitely tailor your resume to the description of each job you’re applying to, as well.
Topangela* January 18, 2019 at 3:24 pm What about the length of time it takes to implement modifications and bug requests? If there’s a lot of variance maybe that’s tougher but I’m thinking something like ‘decreased wait time for modification implementation from 10 days in 2016 to 4 days in 2019’ (sorry if implementation actually takes way longer!!) Or the % of implementations that fix the issue on the first round? Completed 100 modifications in 2018 with 90% first-round success rate? (Again, update with actual tech terminology!)
PX* January 18, 2019 at 4:10 pm As someone who has to deal with this in my day job, dont underestimate the value of first time fixes! Seriously. First time quality/reliability is a good thing. And you can definitely frame it that way. I would also echo what others have said – whatever you do must be reasonably important otherwise you wouldnt be there. But you can talk about it in terms of supporting/enhancing the product, ensuring reliability, quality, good user experience etc.
UniAdmin* January 18, 2019 at 12:05 pm I’m applying to a new job at the university I work for that is very similar to my current position. How do I say that I love all the tasks and skills involved in this work, but my current program is a mess that won’t likely survive, in a professional way that doesn’t disparage my current colleagues or unit?
Annie Morgan* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm Depending on the size and connectedness of your university, they might already know your program is a mess! That said, try framing it not as why you want to leave the Teapot Program but why you want to join the Llama Grooming Department.
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 1:26 pm Totally agree-they may already know your program’s a mess and framing it as how much you love the university and their program is a great way to pivot any questions they ask about why you’re leaving your program.
Being PushedOut* January 18, 2019 at 12:06 pm Feel like being pushed out- after coming back from leave, was given less and less assignments or insignificant ones- but I don’t get a clear feedback if my work isn’t satisfactory- some feedbacks I recently got was when I was too chatty or when I came in late (as if I was the first and only one to do that). Sorry for ranting fellow readers, I just feel hurt and not valued. After 5 years here, I’ve gotten nowhere, unlearned a lot of things and feel like I failed professionally.
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 12:13 pm Ouch, that sounds hard. And coming back from leave tends to be hard in its own right, so that may be compounding your feelings. The two things I’d do are initiate a conversation with your manager (“Since coming back, I’ve felt that you have concern about my performance–can we talk about that and find ways to address it?”) and start looking elsewhere, since you sound pretty done with the place,
Being PushedOut* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm fposte Thanks for the response – I’m actively looking and hopefully find one soon. Not interested in talking to them and try to salvage whatever’s left of this relationship lol, you’re right, I’m done.
First Time Caller* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm I totally understand feeling hurt and not valued; somehow despite working here for several years I always end up at the bottom of the pile. My boss arbitrarily takes over projects and responsibilities that are part of my job description and then hands the shitty menial parts back to me. My impressive title and job description don’t at all reflect what I do on an everyday basis and I feel useless. I am looking but it’s hard not to let it destroy one’s motivation in the meantime.
Rosie* January 18, 2019 at 12:08 pm I’m leaving my first full time professional job (for a better one! with higher pay and better hours!), and I’m not sure if management’s reaction was normal/appropriate, and I’d love some perspective on this! I told my direct manager in person (who was lovely and excited for me and said that she had a feeling I was looking but didn’t want to say anything) and emailed my grandboss, who is hard to get meetings with. My grandboss sent back a message basically saying congratulations and we’ll miss you, then asked if I would consider giving more than two weeks notice (I’m not in a field where more than two weeks is the norm, but a lot of my former coworkers have had months long notice periods because they were leaving to go to grad school.). When I said no, she asked me to come into her office to chat. She asked me some questions about why I’d decided to leave and asked again about me giving more notice. It felt a little bit like a guilt trip (“It’s really hard on our team when someone leaves…”). I told her again that I can’t give more notice (I’m moving and have a start date set at my new job!). Was this out of line or am I just overthinking it?
Michelle* January 18, 2019 at 12:24 pm I think it was a bit out of line. Two weeks is pretty normal everywhere and as I have heard on AAM many times, what would they do if you got hit by a bus?
Queriouser and Queriouser* January 18, 2019 at 12:34 pm I mean, I don’t think this was egregious? She asked twice to get what she wanted. Sure, she should have dropped it immediately, but… This doesn’t sound that bad, to be honest. Harden your heart and don’t feel bad about giving professional notice even if she wanted more.
Rosie* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm Thanks for the response (And thank you to Michelle, too!)! The only jobs I’ve had before have been seasonal or on-campus jobs I left when I graduated, so after that exchange I was worried I had done something wrong or I’d was going to leave a bad impression.
SheLooksFamiliar* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm Congratulations on your new role, Rosie! FWIW, I don’t think your grandboss was out of line. She’s not wrong about your departure being difficult to manage, and is certainly thinking about What Happens Next. It doesn’t sound like she grilled you mercilessly as much as asked you about giving more notice. Even so, you were not obligated to give her more, even if you could, and it sounds like you handled the situation well. Please keep us posted!
Nacho* January 18, 2019 at 12:11 pm My multinational company has a big event later today, closing the local office, busing everybody to a hotel an hour away, flying the CEO in from the Netherlands, and paying us overtime to spend 5 hours listening to vague platitudes about our “2020 vision.” After the event, there’s a 3 hour dinner party. It’s not paid unlike the vague platitudes, but a lot of effort is going into convincing people to dress up for it and basically treat it like some kind of convention. Transportation back to the office/our homes isn’t being offered until after the party at 9:00, and some of my coworkers just rented rooms in the hotel and plan to make a night of it. One of these conventions is being done in every major office we have worldwide. My question is, is this weird? It seems to me like everybody is making a very big deal over a very small event. Am I supposed to be so loyal to my company that I get excited over the prospect of spending 6 paid hours and 3 unpaid at a conference center listening to somebody talk about our mission statement? Or do other multinational companies to this too? Is this a normal part of corporate culture that I’m just missing?
Bob* January 18, 2019 at 4:13 pm I dont know if normal is the word I would use, but its definitely not that strange or uncommon. And definitely more of the norm in big multinationals in my experience.
Penguin2* January 18, 2019 at 7:08 pm Definitely normal. It feels like you might be overreacting a little bit. If this happened every month, I’d say its too much. Once a year? Totally normal and makes sense to try to get everyone together.
Cafe Au Lait* January 18, 2019 at 12:12 pm When I was pregnant and close my due date a newly hired student employee asked where I registered. I thanked him for the sweet thought and adamently (and kindly) told him “Gifts flow down, never up.” As the oldest of seven kids he really enjoyed babies. Flash forward and this student employee is now an up-and-coming entertainment name. Part of me is regretting not letting him buy a gift. I could’ve told my daughter “Celebrity bought you ____ when you were born!” (Not really. I would’ve told him the same thing : gifts flow down, never up).
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm That’s really sweet! Sounds like a nice kid. At least you can tell her that a celebrity wanted to buy her a gift.
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 8:46 pm This is a better story than “Celebrity gave you the chewed-up x we threw out.”
Ghostwriter* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm Bike commuters, what are your best tips for avoiding general office awkwardness related to being in the elevator in spandex, showing up slightly sweaty, etc? I rode in occasionally last year, but I’m hoping to do it the majority of workdays come springtime. It’s 9 miles each way, so a full change is needed and my office doesn’t have locker room facilities.
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm Occasional run commuter here – I try to stick to changing in our lobby restroom where I’m less likely to see people on my way in or out, but in general, I think you can own it as long as you change promptly and don’t smell or look too disheveled afterward. I have only ever heard positive things about my bike commuting coworkers, even the ones who bring their bikes upstairs and keep them at their desk. I will say that I’m female and don’t feel too weird about being seen in workout gear, but it does seem like more of A Thing for men and spandex. You might want to think about other options if you aren’t comfortable being seen in your full regalia. I always take it a level more conservative when I know that coworkers might see me – slightly longer shorts, less skimpy tops, etc.
CatCat* January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm I just had to get over it. I don’t mind being seen in my biking attire. It’s the most awkward for me when I have to do my hair in the bathroom including noise from a small hairdryer. I just say to myself, “Yep, I feel weird about this, but it’s not actually a problem.”
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 9:13 pm I smile broadly and say hello! It’s nothing to be ashamed of. If you do it all the time, they’ll get used to it. No one is thinking about it that much. By the time you’ve walked away, they’ve already forgotten.
Windchime* January 19, 2019 at 3:23 pm Yes, this. We have several people who commute by bike and it’s no big deal to see them coming in with their bikes and wearing their gear. We are lucky that we have a shower in this building, so I assume many of them shower and change down there (after they bring their bike to their cube for safekeeping.)
Interview while pregnant* January 18, 2019 at 12:15 pm I’m 15 weeks pregnant and have an interview next week for GreatNextJob. If I got an offer, no question I’d take it and give CurrentJob 2 weeks notice. AAM recommends telling after the offer, but is that couched as question, “Hope this is ok?” Or matter of fact with an acceptance? Does calculation change if -the job requires 25-30% travel and possibly lifting heavy things? -it’s a high risk where we aren’t telling most people in general? -CurrentJob will be laying off, possibly me included.
Arielle* January 18, 2019 at 12:40 pm I feel like “Hope this is okay” is reasonable language for, like, a pre-scheduled vacation but the baby is coming whether it’s okay with them or not! They can’t pull the offer based on your pregnancy (if you’re in the US) so I would just be as matter-of-fact as possible.
Elizabeth Proctor* January 18, 2019 at 1:52 pm They can’t pull the offer, but they might be able to fire you when you go on leave. You won’t be protected by FMLA so you’ll need to know what their maternity leave policy is for people with less than a year. Is this your first baby? I would ask about the travel–will you be able to not travel from ~36 weeks (maybe earlier with high risk) pregnant until baby is x (I’d say 6) months old (especially if you plan to breastfeed)?
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 6:11 pm Also check your health insurance! I’ve had health insurance policies that would not cover out-of-network maternity/birth services after the first trimester, so you would not be able to travel out of state past then.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm Can you travel that much? Do you want to while pregnant? Actually, if it’s high-risk I am guessing that’s a hard no. What do you propose to do for them if you can’t do the job they hire you for? At any rate, be matter of fact.
Possibly Enough Detail to be Identified?* January 18, 2019 at 12:17 pm 2019 is starting out… VERY well! :-D Previous posts (under a different user name as well as this one) have covered my frustration with my boss, my workload, my company in general. Usually very angry, negative rants. Well, things have turned around just a few short days into the new year. First few days back after the break, and I have been given a new role at work – I applied for one role and had an “interview” before Christmas, but it was fully confirmed working day 3, and it’s a far more involved and challenging and interesting position than I originally asked for. It’s a split role, so I’ll still be doing most of my original day job, but on an increasingly part time basis as the project matures. The new role involves working with new people, including some external consultants, so I won’t be surrounded by existing negativity. The role itself is to help develop a new system and processes to improve my department, so it’s not a permanent role, but it is a long term one (at least until Christmas). And, although not expected at all and certainly not a factor in my application (because I wasn’t told about it until this week), the role has come with a nice little pay rise! I’ve got a learning curve the size of Mount Olympus, and I’m still behind the starting line as the project has actually already been in progress for several months before I’ve been brought on board, but I’m excited, and seem to be asking all the right questions and picking up the necessary details. So, instead of venting, I’m here to brag. Not even a humble brag – I’m very proud of myself!
Cute Li’l UFO* January 18, 2019 at 12:17 pm I’m fudging miserable, the CEO reamed me in front of the marketing director yesterday and went on a really long “what am I paying you for you’re really expensive” “what are you doing” “this is not a 40 hour work week work” and threatening to make me go back to more checks and edit the hours down. DELIVER DELIVER DELIVER AND DO THINGS THAT YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO DO It’s a contract to hire thing and I’m talking with the recruiter today. Coworkers assured me I’m doing fine and that this comes in cycles, but so does bipolar disorder and I realized I didn’t have to live that way.
Windchime* January 19, 2019 at 3:28 pm Good for you. Life is too short to work for a boss like this; ask me how I know.
justsomeone* January 18, 2019 at 12:18 pm Are there any librarians here? I’m looking at making a career shift from marketing to being a librarian, but I can’t afford the pay cut to junior librarian in the public library system near me. Is this going to be an impossible jump without taking a significant pay cut? (I could do a minor cut, but not the $7k I’m looking at now.)
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm Do you know for sure you want to do public librarianship? There are a lot of other kinds. Was the local system just being used as a data point or is that the only place you’d be open to working? Because that’ll be a big limitation. There’s also the matter of library school in the meantime–is that financially doable, and do you know where you might want to go? It’s true that public, especially at lower levels, doesn’t pay great; do check out the benefits and pension possibilities, though, since they’re often different (and maybe more advantageous) than what you’re used to.
justsomeone* January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm I’d actually prefer not to do public librarianship, but I’m not sure how to open doors otherwise. I used my local system because I’m not really interested in moving to a different city, but I am definitely open and interested in working for some of the local universities, or organizations that might maintain private research libraries.
justsomeone* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm And for library school, I have found a few online programs for under $10k that I should be able to manage paying for. My current job offers a partial tuition rebate.
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm Public librarianship is a door to public librarianship; it’s not really the door you want to tug at to get to another kind. While there’s wiggle room on your specialization when you do a library degree, it’s not carte blanche–to be competitive when you graduate, you’re going to want a clear focus that sets you up for academic librarianship if that’s where you’re going, public if that’s where you’re going, corporate if that’s where you’re going, etc. What I’d suggest is some more research and consideration about librarianship as a path. You might start by contacting the recruitment/enrollment/student affairs people at the LIS program you’re considering, and ask about possible pathways and subsequent careers. They should have a ton of information at their fingertips about this. You might find something that really interests you that you hadn’t even considered; you might also find that this isn’t a direction that’ll work for you, which is okay too. But I think you’re getting ahead of yourself with the public librarian salary thing; go back to the basics to see what kind of librarianship is out there and might fit you, and then consider the pay.
AcademiaNut* January 19, 2019 at 2:41 am I’m not a librarian, but I am an academic. If you aren’t willing to move to a different city, that may seriously limit your ability to get a librarian job at all. There’s a lot of competition for librarian jobs, so you won’t be competing just against local candidates – this could mean that you find yourself with a degree and can’t get a job even with a significant pay cut. The other thing I’d be really careful about is the online degree – make really sure that it’s fully competitive with a traditional degree, or you’ll end up wasting 10K.
Punk Ass Book Jockey* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm Unfortunately, you’re likely looking at a significant pay cut no matter where you work. There are exceptions, but most public library systems are severely underfunded and therefore librarians are severely underpaid, especially in positions that do not require a masters degree. And getting a MLIS/MLS can be expensive, depending on the school. That being said, I work in public libraries and love my job. It’s fulfilling, and I feel like I’m making a difference in my community. The libraries I’ve worked for have ensured a good work/life balance, although I’ve heard horror stories from colleagues in other systems or states.
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm I agree with this. In my area anyway, it takes a while to build up to the good money jobs, and also in my area, there is so much competition and so many candidates who are willing to take lower pay, that it is hard to break into this profession. I don’t mean to sound down on the profession; I love it and I love helping people in this way, and making a difference in people’s lives. It’s just a tough profession to get started in, depending on location. Are you willing or able to do some volunteering to make some connections with people? Having people already in the system speaking up for you would probably help give you an edge.
justsomeone* January 18, 2019 at 1:03 pm I’m am looking at volunteering and/or getting a PT role at the library near me while I pursue my MLIS online. I have found a few affordable programs. (though I do wonder if I should go to the local university’s MLIS program, since I ultimately would like to work for them)
Punk Ass Book Jockey* January 18, 2019 at 2:13 pm I’ve found that it’s difficult to transition from public to academic librarianship–they’re two totally different careers. If you’re interested in academic, research and instruction are huge parts of what you’ll be doing so if you could find a PT job or volunteer opportunity that would help you build those skills, it would be helpful. Going to school at the same place you want to work might not matter too much, although it would give you networking opportunities. Some of my professors were adjuncts who were full-time librarians in the university library system.
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 2:33 pm I will add that our program does sometimes hire its grads for staff positions–think advising, student services, etc. But they’re generally not positions that pay higher than earlier level librarianship.
Alex* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm I’m not a librarian, but I am related to several people with MLIS degrees. I say they have degrees and not that they are librarians, because … they are not librarians. In my mom’s case, she couldn’t afford to be a librarian, it would have been a $20k paycut to go from being a paralegal to a librarian. My aunt isn’t a working librarian because she could not get a job. I would absolutely recommend against going into librarianship, especially as a second career.
Business Librarian* January 19, 2019 at 10:27 am Look at the job ads from your local library association. For instance, the Texas Library Association has a job line. Not all of them will include salary ranges, but you can look at the kind of requirements each job has. It really is a very difficult time to get into librarianship, and as someone who did do it as a second career, I can tell you from personal experience it’s got a lot in common with sales! You say you’re in marketing right now so I don’t know if you’re customer-facing, but unless you’re planning on systems librarianship or something, and maybe even then, you’re going to be dealing with a lot of people. And I’m not a public librarian! I bring this up because a large number of people come into the library, see the shelves of books and hear the quiet, and think a librarian’s job is very different from what it really is. A common thing said is “I want to be a librarian because I love to read.” Welp, sorry, I don’t do that much unless you count email, research articles, and directives from on high. I’ve told a number of people that the best training I got for my day-to-day job was sales training for a previous position. Whatever you decide, best of luck.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 12:18 pm Is LinkedIn worth it for publishing articles, updates for events we host, etc? For context, I work for a media company and pretty much neglect my own LI (though I have begun to update that in anticipation of possibly job hunting). But, an article of mine that someone else posted got more than 800 views. We cover a very business-y industry. And any resources for how to make the most of LI without spending a lot of time?
lil falafel wrap* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm Does anyone have any ideas for finding professional development opportunities? My org offers a good amount of money each year toward professional development, but I’m not sure what I should be using that money for/how to find opportunities. A little about me, I work with high-school aged youth in California. A lot of my youth are in the homeless and/or in juvenile justice system. If there’s any other info that would be useful to know, let me know!
LG* January 18, 2019 at 12:22 pm Not sure exactly what your role is, but I’ve heard great things about both Teachers for Social Justice and Facing History PD programs. Both are obviously geared toward teachers, but I think a wider youth-facing audience would get a lot out of the discussions and exercises in their sessions.
lil falafel wrap* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm I’ve heard of Facing History but not Teachers for Social Justice! Thank you, I will look into both.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:23 pm Have you asked your colleagues by chance? I lean on web based platforms mostly myself and look for local seminars. Thank you for the work you do. We need more people working with our youth so many throw away.
lil falafel wrap* January 18, 2019 at 12:42 pm Thank you for your kind words(: I work for a non-profit, but it’s their first time working in the region I’m in and with the population I serve, so they don’t always know what’s happening in my exact field. But I could definitely reach out to some of other people in my network who don’t work directly for the org I work for; that’s a good idea. Thanks!
NoLongerATeacherAfterKatrina&Rita* January 19, 2019 at 8:28 am 1. Anything by Ruby Payne, who describes how to deal with the class system in America, especially with how to deal with the class differences between middle class and those stuck in generational poverty. She offers online seminars; I don’t know how available her open-to-the-public seminars are. 2. Aikido, or other less violent means of self defense. I know there are some specific methods for hip-blocking kids to neutralize them (essentially, once the kid gets within your personal space, you grab their arms and hold their hip against yours with their feet off the ground; they can’t get leverage to connect with you), but I’ve blocked the name. [Learned about AFTER the various incidents, of course.] 3. Grant writing. [It was an inner city high school in Texas. 80% of the kids were either nice or just getting by, many of them trying to provide for their own kids or their younger siblings. The rest weren’t so nice. Now I live in Florida with my sister and tutor and do volunteer work with rocket scientists’ kids. They aren’t perfect, but there’s less drugs, and they spend all their energies trying to get the robots to work.]
LG* January 18, 2019 at 12:19 pm I’m about to interview for a position a step up at my university (in a different department). I really like my current job a lot, and when I told her about the interview, my manager immediately started the process of a title bump and pay raise (as a counter offer, but it will go through even if I don’t get an offer on the other position). I’ve never been in an interview where I really like my current job and feel ambivalent over the prospect of leaving (the dynamic of not coming in a liiittle bit desperate feels great)! I also don’t know how to make a good decision that isn’t based in being a people pleaser (I have various irons in the fire at my current position that it would suck to leave, we are currently trying to fill another position in my current department that would leave them extra in the lurch, I like my colleagues). It seems like the new position would be good training and more to do, but it would be hard to take a leap into the various unknowns there. What’s a good way to think about how to make this decision if I get an offer?
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 1:32 pm It sounds fairly win-win for you-either you get a new position with new trainings or you get to stay in a job you like with a bump in pay and title. Go into the interview with an open mind and don’t feel a pressure to decide right away.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:20 pm What’s your idea of a “fast pace” job? We’re in the hiring mode currently and so we see this thrown around a lot but we’re like “what does that mean?! We’re not slow but are we fast paced?!” My job is the only one that’s often turtles pace but it’s on a cycle and very bullet pointed. Everything else depends on order flow which is consistent but has slow periods. I don’t want to mislead people at all but that seems like a buzzword with really subjective meaning to it. Also one more “detail oriented” person with massive clerical errors and poor communication, I’m gonna burst into fire. I feel the flames licking at my toes toes right now.
Not Today Satan* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm In the interview, I would be as specific as possible describing the work load and stress level. Fast paced is fine in a description, but it means something different to everybody.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 2:10 pm I’m actually not listing anything about the pace. People just keep sending in resumes that say that’s what they want or are used to! I’m concerned about what their expectations or background is. The job lists exactly all the duties and we’re strong on making sure nobody has over load. We don’t use buzzwords or murky definitions in our postings. They’re a waste of space and sound like a scam to me.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 10:22 am Be upfront about the environment you’re hiring into and let them decide for themselves whether they’re concerned if it’s fast-paced ‘enough’
KR* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm Fast paced to me means a job where things change as needed and it can be a lot, where things may come up last minute that need to be addressed Right Now, and where employees have a drive to get things done sooner rather than later.
Cheesecake 2.0* January 18, 2019 at 2:23 pm To me, fast paced would be juggling multiple things at all times, “putting out fires” a lot, deadlines with extremely tight turnarounds, being in a position of having to drop everything if needed. I would consider my job to be fairly fast paced, although the day-to-day is standard work stuff, I also am responsible for helping the department chair and she’s a procrastinator who will email me things like “I need an updated budget for this project that adds these changes #1-25, and it’s due to the finance office in 2 hours but you need to send it to me in 75 minutes so I have adequate time to review before submission.”
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:15 pm Thank you! You and @KR are saying exactly what I pictured. We’re not fast paced at all. We’re pretty steady-eddie. Sure there’s always sometimes that things go weird and sideways but it’s so rare, I’d say maybe twice a year in my experience so far. And even then, those tend to be actual ’emergency’ situations and not “oh I forgot about a deadline!” It’s maybe an order got misplaced and we need the new one to go out today, second day air and you better stop whatever you’re doing to make that happen. I worked in places before where I did have to juggle everything and ever changing priorities. So I think of that as fast paced.
Sammie* January 19, 2019 at 12:37 am Thank you! I see this a lot too and have even gone to interviews with large companies where the overarching sense I got is that I couldn’t possibly know what fast-paced is like because my current company is so small. So I’ve been wondering about the definition. Also, I’m very good at my job after years at it and I take on more and more with no issues (I streamlined a lot of outdated processes). Very little flusters me now. So I began to doubt myself – maybe my workload is rather modest and steady. But, nope, by your definition – definitely fast paced. On day’s like today, it’s downright frenetic. I’m still trying to wind down, five hours later. Thanks for helping to clarify that for me!
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 10:24 am Smaller companies can sometimes be more or just as fast paced because you are typically wearing many many hats in one role. I wouldn’t necessarily let company size be your barometer
Not All* January 18, 2019 at 12:47 pm I’ve confirmed that I really, really, REALLY need to get a new job. This is my third long furlough and the first time that I’ve had zero worries about what is not getting done at my job. It’s also the first time that I haven’t missed seeing the majority of my coworkers, and in fact am hugely relieved at not having to interact with most of them. I feel awful for everyone who is financial trouble (and have been making donations to help where I can) but man am I enjoying the reduction in stress and absence of daily interpersonal angst! I’ve even stopped grinding my teeth…it had gotten to the point where I was chipping them during the day as well as in my sleep.
Call me St. Vincent* January 18, 2019 at 2:08 pm I’m climbing the walls over here. I miss my colleagues and I have so much work piling up that I can’t even think about it. I feel like I will have to work nights and weekends for weeks after this ends (if it EVER does) to catch up. I actually had lunch with a colleague today and am thankfully in touch with people so I don’t feel crazy.
Jaid* January 18, 2019 at 2:18 pm Guess who got called back to work! Guess who is now sitting twiddling her thumbs because they didn’t call back the clerks to assign and control work to employees! Oh well. The folks at Wawa were pleased to see me and even gave me a free coffee. :-)
Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD* January 18, 2019 at 3:00 pm As a federal contractor, comparatively lucky (so far). But if this shutdown goes on past January 31st, the contract we won needs someone to activate it, aka a gov person, so that’s not good/not ideal at all. Trying really hard not to think about it. On the other hand, I got a surprise invite to a top 5 famous company’s networking session early Feb. I don’t think they’re looking for folks like me–I write and analyze teapots, not code them. Not sure if I’ll make it in, but here’s to trying!
Working not being paid* January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm Still working everyday, waiting for it to end. I have a great office, so we are ok morale wise. I’m ok for a while financially. Just super annoyed that there is no end in sight.
De Minimis* January 18, 2019 at 12:21 pm I’m really at a loss as far as what to do about my job/living situation. I changed jobs over the summer, and also moved to a new city. Neither really seems to be working out. There are a lot of good things about the work conditions–pay is good, and so is work/life balance and the commute, but I don’t think the job is really for me. I’ve been here five months, and I feel like it’s just not a fit for me, both as far as the work I do and my team members. I’m a federal contractor and there’s always going to be some level of separation between contractors and the regular employees, but I think this goes beyond that. Also, I don’t find the work interesting at all, though I still prefer it to what I was doing at my previous job [which was marketed as an accounting job but was really more of an HR/office manager/accounting clerk role.] There are plenty of jobs available for me to apply to, but I don’t really like where I live either. Sometimes I think maybe I’m not giving it a chance, but I’d still really like to do a cross country move later this year. That was my original intention when I was job searching last summer, but this is where I ended up [city about an hour from where I used to live.] This wasn’t my first, second, or even tenth choice, but it was the only place that would hire me. Since I’m a federal contractor, I have a pretty good reason to give interviewers for why I’m already searching for a job after 5 months [even though this agency is not affected by the shutdown at all.] So I don’t know if I want to switch jobs, still live in a town I don’t like, and look like an even worse job hopper if I end up wanting to switch jobs again after a year. My inclination right now is to look at jobs, but only apply if it’s something that really seems great. If I haven’t found anything or thought of any other ideas by late spring, maybe start looking for out of state jobs again. I’ve also considered just moving without a job, but that’s pretty scary for me as a middle aged person with a lot of responsibilities. I’ve had a lot of work gaps in my past [was unemployed for nearly 3 years during the recession] and I don’t know if I still look like a poor risk on paper, though I’ve worked more or less steadily over the past 6-7 years. TL:DR Got a new job and moved to a new city, have been here 5 months and don’t like either of them, trying to decide if I should just start looking for another job here where I live or just suck it up and look at relocating closer to when my lease is up later this summer.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 12:48 pm It’s a damn good time to look! The market is very slim pickings, the traditional orange flags you mentioned (work gaps, short stints) are often glossed over. I know I don’t pay much attention right now and only ask in passing. So don’t let it hold you back from trying out the water.
Boredatwork* January 18, 2019 at 1:26 pm +1 to ridiculously hot job market (at least for my skills, large corporate accounting). Life’s too short to be miserable in your job.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 2:05 pm I think that if you want to make a cross country move eventually anyway, there’s no harm in starting that search now in addition to a more local search. If you really dislike your location, a fabulous new job is not going to help that. I think you’re in a great position, in that your job isn’t great but isn’t terrible, and your lease will be up sooner than you know. Give it a shot.
Fenchurch* January 18, 2019 at 12:21 pm It’s been an interesting week for me. I found out I got a new job internally that I’m very excited for, finally leaving the call center environment after 5 years! I know that my follow up email to the hiring manager made a huge impact, and I wouldn’t have gotten here without reading this awesome blog. In other news, my department went through a re-org I affectionately called “professional musical chairs”. They invited people to reapply to the job they had, or try to find another job in the function that suited them better. It’s taken a few months to go through the notification to people whose jobs were in jeopardy, interviews, and now notifications of new roles. One hundred jobs were open, but at least 130 people were applying to them. Leadership decided in the interest of transparency to post the names of everyone who was left without a job at the end of the process. This was initially sent out to our 400+ person department (which shocked me), then posted on our internal website for employees (5500+ people). I am absolutely aghast that this happened and feel so terrible for the DOZENS of people who are losing their jobs. It’s so tone deaf, and I have no idea who thought it was a good idea.
AMA Long-time Lurker* January 18, 2019 at 12:21 pm Just a spot of good news…after searching for about 2 years, my boyfriend landed his dream job! His work environment was completely toxic – he was producing 2X the output of his teammates, they regularly failed to give his performance reviews, and there was a general lack of professional decorum (e.g., people filing their nails at their desks, not washing their hands after using the restroom). It took him 2 years to find what he needed – better pay, in the tech industry, entry level, and – magically – predominantly remote! My only mixed feeling about this is that he *knew* someone in the company, which was instrumental in getting his foot in the door. (He proved himself through the rigorous interview process, but he was given the benefit of the doubt to start with.) I often wonder about how “who you know” and the power of social circles replicates imbalances of power in professional environments. Do we keep attracting the same types of people, from similar socioeconomic backgrounds? Just something I’ve been pondering.
Parenthetically* January 18, 2019 at 1:31 pm My husband got his job through a friend of a friend. I know what you mean about replicating power imbalances but it’s also hard to be churlish about having a decent job! I share your mixed feelings.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 3:13 pm It is well established that ‘who you know’ is a key factor in many jobs. It’s one benefit of colleges and frats, for example. Companies are going away from this a little with electronic applications, and with programs that reach out to alternative sources (eg, engaging with HBCUs or the New (instead of white / blue) Collar idea, pushing for engagement with community colleges & 2 year degrees, not just universities). But yeah, who you know still gets your foot in the door in a lot of places. Internally in my (large) employer, it’s critical.
What's My Job Again?* January 18, 2019 at 12:23 pm So my organization is going through a redesign/restructure and the reality is that in the next few months, many of my current teammates will either be transitioned to roles in other departments, or they will be let go altogether. Basically, I will be the last person standing in my department before they hire and rebuild my department. I am aware that my current role will be changed, but it is essentially a lateral position from my current one – I would be going from a teapots coordinator with some shift in duties/responsibilities to a teapot associate. Besides the discomfort I have in general about all this change, I am frustrated that I am not being re-positioned for a more senior role, especially as I have being done teapot coordinator/associate role for years now and have gained quite a bit of experience. Where I feel I am at, based on my skills/experience, is more aligned with a teapot manager position; within a few years, my goal it eventually be in a teapot team lead position. I have mentioned this to my our department head, who is working to redesign the org with our consulting firm before he decides to either leaves his current job for a role in another department, or leaves the organization altogether. He seems to be indicating to me that there would be plenty of opportunities for me to advance in the future, but a lot of that opportunity would happen after the new team is put in place. This is frustrating to me – it feels like a reset clock has been put on my tenure at this organization; a lot of my advancement would obviously be contingent on the new department head and middle management installed and if they felt I am worthy of being promoted. I am starting to look for new opportunities elsewhere, but I haven’t given up yet on seeing if I can get promoted during this process. I am curious – for those of you who have been in a similar situation, if you know you are being kept on during an organization redesign, is there any advantage to being in a more junior role while a new team is being built around you? Or would it be better to get moved up and start your footing with your new team in a more seasoned position? FYI: The reason for this org redesign is that this is our CEO’s second year and she was hired to both take the org in a more strategic direction as well as expand personnel/overall talent pool so we can reach our potential. I do not think trying to ask for a promotion or requesting my current role re-positioned to a more advanced role is out of sync with the new direction the organization is going in.
Miss Fisher* January 18, 2019 at 12:25 pm So a question keeps coming up at work regarding where do I want to go next. I think its great that they encourage growth, but I am happy where I am right now. The problem is they don’t really seem to like this answer much. So how long should a person stay in a job. I have been in my job since 2015 and have been promoted to a sr level in 2018. Now that I have reached the top level, they want to know whats next. My answer really is I don’t know. I didn’t go to school for Business, so I don’t know if I would like what else there is at the company. This is all so different anyways as it seems growing up, my parents both had the same jobs for 30 yrs and that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore from work and reading the blog. I was taught leaving jobs was actually a bad thing. So I guess I don’t have a real question, just curious about the whole moving jobs thing becoming a must.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm You’ve only been in the senior level for a year or less and they’re pushing for next? Do they want you to train for senior leadership or something like that? Can you push back and ask where they see you in 5 years? But yeah, I don’t see “I’ve been here for a year” as being “too long in a job”. Frankly I’m not sure it’s possible to be too long in a job, you want someone who knows what’s up. But I don’t know what gets taught at business seminars.
Not a Real Giraffe* January 18, 2019 at 1:27 pm If you’re perfectly happy to stay where you are for now (and I would be, too!), would an answer along the lines of “my hope is to grow within this position, become an expert in [specific area your job focuses on], and help the team achieve [very long term goal].” That way, they see that you want growth and have a trajectory, but that it’s not tied to a new role?
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 6:18 pm Could you ask them for advice? “Typically, what roles are the next step for Senior Llama Herders?”
Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon* January 18, 2019 at 12:27 pm So this is a dramatic, and I’d love some advice to pass on. I don’t know how these crazies keep finding me and my sister but here we are. My sister “Sansa” got a promotion from HR Assistant, to HR Manager one year ago at a medium sized company. During that time, one woman (mid 50s) named Cersei was let go due to her behavior: stealing files from people’s desks, not showing up for work, lying about having experience that she didn’t have…etc. In retaliation, Cersei wrote a letter to the grandboss and great-grand boss (who are really not involved with the general day to day) and said that my sister physically hit her when they were alone in the exit interview, and physically intimidated her several time before that. (My sister is five foot one!) Cersei went as far as to say she was scared for people still working there. Knowing my sister, I know there is no possible way that would ever happen, and she was devastated when she got a copy of the letter. Her boss, Grand boss,and Great-Grand boss all decided to just ignore it. Cersei actually wrote a follow up, some weeks later to ask why Sansa was still employed there. This was also ignored. Sansa asked if the company lawyer would send a cease and desist letter to Cersei, but her boss said it wasn’t necessary. Now another woman, a relative of someone who was also let go, has sent a letter directly to the bosses to complain about Sansa. She says that Sansa yelled at her relative during a meeting about performance issues. Sansa says it didn’t happen, and she was nothing but kind because she had felt bad for that employee who was going through a tough time. But now this is two letters written to her bosses accusing her of really inappropriate behavior, that frankly just didn’t happen. I’m very upset about this vicious libel against her. I’m worried these women are somehow connected. Does anyone have any advice for how she can handle this? At this point, Sansa is just wondering when the next raven will arrive…
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:48 pm How bizarre, especially the third-hand letter from the relative of the employee. I agree someone is connected with Cersei, who is bizarrely fixated on Sansa. The best case: the bosses see this for what it is. Second best: Uncover the connection to Cersei, bring it to the attentions of the higher ups and insist on a cease and desist letter. IF the company won’t do it, maybe Sansa should hire her own.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm Why is Sansa having these meetings without witnesses. During a firing there should always be at least two people + the employee to avoid situations like this. Typically it would be the manager and the HR person. Also why is Sansa having exit interviews with terminated employees? Maybe it’s a terminology thing? In my mind Exit Interview = questions to gain insight as to how the organization works and opinions of the person leaving. A person who just got fired is not going to give any valuable information. If by exit interview she means “turn in your id badge and I’ll watch you pack your desk or make arrangements to send your stuff” then there should always be 2 people in the meeting.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 3:28 pm At least management is not taking the bait here. That’s important to realize. Sounds like Cersei is looking for ex-employees to exploit them to damage Sansa’s reputation. Pathetic. No more one-on-one meetings for Sansa. Include a witness every time. At some point, should this “go legal”, Cersei will need to provide some proof of her claims. And so will anyone else who claims Sansa has abused them. Things will fall apart for her.
Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon* January 18, 2019 at 3:48 pm Many thanks! Solid advice. Yes, I was wrong when I said “exit interview.” I asked her again, and she clarified that it was a quick exchange not a meeting. Sansa said that Cersei literally walked into her office, dropped off her keys and left, there wasn’t a conversation, and Sansa didn’t get up from her desk. Sansa’s boss was actually in the meeting that the second letter described, so she also knows Sansa didn’t yell…but the letter targeted both of them, and said they were both unprofessional. It doesn’t seem like management believes these accounts, but I think Sansa is afraid of these people badmouthing her to other places as well. Thanks again everyone.
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm What would the badmouthing accomplish for Cersei? Clearly she wants to get Sansa fired. That’s going to fail- management is on Sansa’s side. So is she trying to position things so that Sansa cannot get hired anywhere else? Any company worth working for will seek out additional references regarding Sansa and not put much weight on Cersei’s badmouthing. Unless Cersei is some captain of industry, they are not going to pay her any mind.
RoadsLady* January 18, 2019 at 12:28 pm A thought I’ve been musing on since a conversation with a friend. She is at this time a stay-at-home mom. She used to work at a job she generally enjoyed. It didn’t pay much, but it was a first job out of college an ultimately would look good on a resume. She happily worked there for over a year after her son was born. She left because they decided to move offices a significant distance away and refused to increase her paycheck to make up for it. Her husband was making enough, so she decided to quit for the time being. The thing is, she couldn’t figure out why the company paid in the “eh, it’s okay” category yet gave so many perks. Snacks, drinks, expensive gifts. It was how they attracted young employees. Looking back, she says she would have stayed if they had been less about showering workplace gifts and just paid little better. So, the question is, is this a new thing? Make work “fun” in lieu of better compensation?
I'm A Little Teapot* January 18, 2019 at 12:39 pm Some companies do it. It works great with people who have no option or are too inexperienced to see past the flashy stuff. I don’t think that it’s good for long term growth and viability.
Sloan Kittering* January 18, 2019 at 12:40 pm I do think there’s a sense that you can take away a perk if down the line money gets tight, whereas reducing salaries is much more difficult. Salaries are a commitment for the lifetime of the employee, free drinks etc is not. However, that’s why most orgs in this situation start to consider bonuses, which are typically one time (or at least don’t come with the expectation that they will always be infinite).
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:44 pm Yeah, also having drinks and stuff, is a lot cheaper than increasing salary.
Darren* January 19, 2019 at 9:33 pm Well you *can* theoretically reduce salaries, but it’s not really something that goes over well, and requires notice (you can’t do it retroactively). I have noticed a tendency for lower base and higher bonuses (although European rules are clamping down on that and have been written such that from a strict reading they impact not just the European employees if the company is headquartered in Europe but all employees globally), Europe also makes those “perks” part of the package so reducing them actually has the same impact.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:50 pm Adding: workplace yoga and foosball table to perks that, if listed in a job app, I know they want young-uns and they pay crap.
AcademiaNut* January 19, 2019 at 2:58 am Also – ‘perks’ like free dinner, on site laundry and nap rooms mean that you’re not expected to leave the office. Ever.
Singin in the Rain* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm Just wanted to update on a post I made on an open thread a few weeks ago. Our company holiday party was this past weekend. For background, all new hires have to participate in a talent show at the holiday party, and this year that was me and one other person from another team. We could not team up with each other and were regaled of great talents/talents gone wrong in the weeks leading up. I had a talent in mind; I’m a classically trained singer, but wasn’t sure that would be the right thing for this venue. My colleague had no idea what to do and was very worried. I decided the game plan would be to just get through it with a beautiful but short, classical piece. It was a sad song, but I did a humorous intro that got a lot of laughs. The venue actually ended up having really nice acoustics, so that was nice. People seemed to enjoy it and were very kind afterwards. My boss was very complimentary not only of my voice, but the way I “commanded the stage.” And a few people told me they felt I had actually done two talents in one performance because I was so funny in the intro. The other new hire went before me and did some sports tricks. I enjoyed his talent – I can’t do those things. But his team members told me he was embarrassed afterwards and joked that I had made an enemy. I decided not to feel too badly for him because he’s very accomplished academically and professionally, and I’m just an EA, so in the overall scheme of life, I think he’ll be fine. So whew! Hazing ritual completed. :)
CheeryO* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm A mandatory work talent show sounds like my personal hell. You’re lucky that you have a solid talent to draw on – I’m sure you killed it!
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 1:12 pm I’m wildly curious why this is a thing, and why no one has insisted that it is terrible. Seems like most adults don’t keep up on their talent show-worthy hobbies. (Awesome that you are a singer, bad for the rest of us.) I know a few musicians in their 40s and 50s who are still in gig-playing bands, but they don’t have office jobs. If I had to do it, I would read something really boring with no dramatic flair.
Singin in the Rain* January 18, 2019 at 2:56 pm The company I work for has several offices around the world and they all used to do a talent show type of thing, but we’re the only office left that does it. Many people, including my cohort in this, hate doing it, but love the idea of watching others have to do it in the following years. From what I gathered, I’m in the minority of people who would be fine with letting it slip away as the other office locations have done. And I say that as someone who would happily sing for my colleagues again. But public performance with the pressure of the audience being your colleagues and their SOs is definitely not for everyone.
Jules the 3rd* January 18, 2019 at 3:18 pm Yeah, that would be the point of hazing – passing on the misery. This is worth pushing back on, when you’ve been there a while. Making people miserable is a very bad way to start their employment. What do they do if someone refuses?
Singin in the Rain* January 18, 2019 at 5:34 pm I wondered that myself because I’m a bit of a contrarian at heart and would mostly want to see what kind of reaction I’d get by saying no. But since I had something really obvious that everyone already knew about (my boss Googled me and found several performances), I chose not to fight this battle. I was upfront about my feelings regarding it though. In my intro I explicitly referred to it as a hazing ritual and told everyone I chose a song about the cruelty of life for the ease of emotional accessibility given the circumstances. That got the biggest laugh. And afterwards people told me, “Now next year you get to watch other people do it and that’s the fun part!” And I responded by saying, “I guess so. Truthfully, I’d be okay if we decided not to do this anymore.” What I was actually thinking was, “No, it will be less fun because I get no joy out of having to watch people whose talents likely aren’t performance-related get up onstage and lightly embarrass themselves by doing something they’d never choose to do if given the option.” Public performance is an art. Leave it to the masochists like me who actually enjoy it.
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 11:06 am I have never understood why watching other people struggle is “fun”.
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 4:12 pm Yeah, I hate that “We did it so you have to” attitude. If it’s bad, it’s bad. Let it go.
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 1:14 pm If the opportunity arises, can you reach out to the other new hire and try to do a little bonding over the joint ‘hazing ritual’ – like, ‘whew, glad that’s over. Loved what you did, I could never do that!’ – or something along those lines? And agree 100% with CheeryO that this would be one of the rings of hell for me too.
Singin in the Rain* January 18, 2019 at 2:58 pm I can try! We really don’t work together though – we even sit on different floors. So I see him maybe once a month, if that. And I did say those exact things to him at the party afterwards.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 5:44 pm Talent shows really work best when there is little to no talent involved and no one takes it too seriously – maybe 1 or 2 acts with actual talent for variety. Like the year that one software development team did a Riverdance-inspired routine. They practiced a fair amount but not a one of them was a dancer. And that was ok! The fun was in watching what they accomplished even w/o the background. Or the year the QA team warped the words of a Broadway song (“Five hundred twenty-five thousand six hundred bugs”). There was the “magic” act that consisted of illusions your average second grader could see through. The music video with really on point boy band posturing. A live action video game. The “orchestra” where the only instruments were bottles that were filled w/ various amounts of water – people blew over the top to get different notes and each person only had 2 or 3 so it worked kind of like a handbell choir would (this was exceedingly well done and resulted in recognizable tunes). Various stupid human tricks. Our talent show was an annual highlight that many people looked forward to. This was all helped by the fact that participation was entirely optional.
Persephone Mulberry* January 18, 2019 at 12:31 pm This week has been a wild ride in temp-to-perm purgatory. (TL;DR: take the permanent offer and keep looking, or turn down the permanent offer and hope they want to keep you on contract?) The big boss is in town this week. This usually means a personal reassurance that they still want to hire me but no actual updates on the timeline. My temp agency called me “off the record” on Wednesday to let me know that the reason the buyout negotiations are stalled is because the company hasn’t been paying them and if they didn’t get their money that day, they might have to pull me off the assignment entirely. Thursday morning I had a frank discussion with my recruiter about whether taking this perm position is the right choice for me (nutshell: it’s work I can do but don’t enjoy and would likely keep looking for a better fit) and what my options/consequences would be of backing out, before or after an offer is made. The big boss and I had the aforementioned check-in conversation midday on Thursday. As expected, they are still “working out some details” but he is “hopeful to have it finalized by early next week.” By the way, he now wants to change my “new” job duties in a way that I’m not really on board with. (I could do it, but I would dial my job search up to 11. If this were an outside interview, I would remove myself from consideration). I relayed this new info to my recruiter and he got me on a conference call with himself and his boss. They must have gotten their money because the staffing boss was suddenly pushing hard for me to take the job even with the knowledge that I would be unhappy and still looking to leave ASAP. I am really really torn on what to do. I already feel bad about potentially turning down the permanent spot after 10 weeks of doing the job; to take it and keep interviewing is operating in such bad faith the idea of it makes me physically ill. OTOH, the risk of turning down the permanent offer and having them end my contract and not being able to make rent also makes me physically ill. There is the third possibility that if I turn down the permanent offer they would still want to keep me on contract for a while; they are already understaffed and have two people going on maternity leave in the spring. But is that a risk I’m willing to bet on? WWYD?
rubyrose* January 18, 2019 at 12:32 pm At what point do you decide to look for another job because your new company shows all the signs of caring more about their profitability/bonuses and not their staff? My group (1,200 people) was acquired by a large global company in October. This global company is a recent merger of two large global companies that have been in existence for decades and has many thousands of employees. They told us they got us because they needed our offering in the market (true) and they needed all of us because they do not have staff who knows our software model (true). They were also intrigued with how we are structured, which allows us to support more sites with fewer staff. Sounded great. Start of vent: Since October, about 5% of our staff has been laid off; no rhyme or reason as to whom was selected. Travel policies are such that some folks will have to double their travel time to/from our clients. From October through December we were on one payroll system, and only the last two checks were correct. In 2019 the first check was accurate; pay stub was snail mailed to us. Our most recent one, though is fraught with problems (benefit deductions only 60% of what they should be, STD/LTD over what they should be, HSA taken is more than specified, over payment of PTO, people living in a state different from where they work have incorrect state taxes taken). And the pay stub shows the current net pay is equal to the gross net pay, even through we have had two checks. Problems are sometimes announced in a vague email. End of vent. I like my work group. I like my work. But my gut says to get out now. Would I be bailing too soon?
I'm A Little Teapot* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm Bail. Payroll is pretty important to get right. The extent of the issues there (disregarding everything else) indicates that there’s some pretty big problems. In the case of a merger or system change, I’d expect that they have it down within 2 payperiods (to external viewers, not internal to Payroll) or they revert to the old process while they fix things.
rubyrose* January 18, 2019 at 12:53 pm See, that is my thought also. Early in my career I supported payroll systems. I would have been fired on the second screw up.
Zip Silver* January 18, 2019 at 12:41 pm It wouldn’t hurt to start looking for something else (especially with random layoffs happening), but acquisitions are generally not a seamless process. I wouldn’t immediately jump ship unless they aren’t able to smooth out processes in Q1/Q2.
rubyrose* January 18, 2019 at 12:54 pm Does your answer change if I tell you this is a technology company? As in the word is in their name? As in their business is to provide automated solutions to other companies?
CatCat* January 18, 2019 at 12:53 pm With layoffs or payroll screw-ups alone, I’d be looking elsewhere.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 1:54 pm Agreed. Companies can mess up anything but payroll, especially more than once. The layoffs, etc? Eh, that stuff happens.
GradStudent* January 18, 2019 at 12:36 pm So, this question is context specific for academia and graduate students. In my department, there is a club for graduate students. The club’s purposes are mainly 1) to do science outreach with local and not-so-local communities and 2) get additional funding for graduate research-related travel for the school. We’ve had a new President for the club for a semester now and things are honestly going down hill quickly. We missed the only outreach we do in the Fall because the President didn’t fill out the form for it (despite several emails from several people reminding them). We had to scramble a meeting together at the last minute to get next year’s budget in because the President didn’t bother looking at the due date (this would have affected EVERY grad student’s travel budget). Now, we’re scrambling to get the form in for our first outreach event of the Spring because, again, the President didn’t bother checking due dates or their email. At this point, to make the club’s outreach hours meet the requirements fro being a club next year, the club needs to co-opt an event only the women in the department plan and volunteer for. (This is especially annoying to me when you consider the history of women being expected to do this kind of labor unrecognized.) I want this club to succeed (especially since there is a monetary value to it) and without myself and the 2 other people running the club (I don’t have an official position but I’ve become the de facto outreach person) it probably wouldn’t have gotten funding or club status next year. I really want to talk to the club advisor about this situation and what can be done. We have several more annual outreach events coming up including our biggest one of the year. Without immediate intervention, the President will probably find a way to mess it up which cannot happen (it takes at least 2 months to plan). However, over the last semester the President and I had a semi-public falling out. I’m still professional (though they are not), but I’m worried about the optics of me bringing up these issues versus someone else. The other 2 who have been working with me just want to wait out the storm as they think this person will not win the next vote for president. I’m not sure if I agree with that assessment. I’m trying not to have a “bitch eating crackers” situation with this person but I am honestly concerned about the club’s future if there is no intervention. Do you think this is worth me going to the club’s advisor or should I wait out the storm with the other 2 people? Do you think there’s a 3rd option I haven’t considered?
Chief of Staff* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm What does the club’s constitution say about how to replace the president and how involved is the club’s advisor? It’s entirely possible that speaking with the advisor would be pointless because the advisor can’t/won’t do anything about the president either because they don’t have the power to or because it’s a student run club and they feel the students should deal with it. I recommend the club take steps to remove the president using the steps outlined in the constitution.
GradStudent* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 pm Sorry for taking so long to respond. I needed to go find the constitution to see if it said anything. It says to remove an officer there needs to be a petition with at least half the members’ signatures then a meeting where 2/3 of the members vote to remove the officer.
INeedANap* January 18, 2019 at 2:06 pm I am a staff member who regularly worked with graduate and undergraduate student clubs that did outreach out (they also had a faculty advisor). I would encourage you to go to your advisor as soon as possible. Your department wants this club to succeed; the optics won’t really matter as long as you have clear, factual points: due to President’s actions X and Y, we missed the opportunity to do A and B. All grad students are being put at risk of their travel budget being affected. Does the department fund this club, or do outside funds come in that support it?
GradStudent* January 19, 2019 at 12:02 am The funds come partially from the department and partially from the student government. Fortunately, myself and the others were able to run around, get a meeting, and get the budget in like an hour before it was due so everyone’s travel budgets are no longer in danger.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 10:36 am Your President is not fulfilling their basic duties as club president. You need to -talk to your advisor — they need to know all this so they can support and advise you -have a “come to Jesus” talk with your president, hosted by you and any other relevant members and ideally potentially your advisor. Set up like a three-more-strikes expectation. -be prepared to replace your president. It sounds like it is Just Not Working Out. This is an academic club. Nobody deserves to be President if they don’t have their sh— together in a way that is jeopardizing everyone else’s experiences.
Kristy* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm I’ve been at a new job for 90 days and it’s not going well. I was promised “a significant investment in training” and I havent received much of anything other than a write up for processing errors. I’ve asked (and received additional resources) for besides my manager but this is still concerning. Also, one of my coworkers has been increasingly hostile because I was hired in over her. 4 weeks after I started, they promoted her, so now we have the same title and responsibilities. However, she still bosses me around on a daily basis, as well as denigrates me around other employees. Supposedly, this was addressed but continues to happen, although less frequently. To make matters worse, my boss is an amazing subject matter expert but isnt a good people manager. She gossips about coworkers to others and whispers are constant. I’m looking for another job, but I want the rest of my time here to be peaceful. What do you suggest?
teach them how to say goodbye* January 18, 2019 at 12:37 pm What’s your organization’s tradition when someone leaves? And what do you say to them as a group? Individually? I’m struggling right now, because we have an executive leaving after 15 years and the perfunctory, “swing by for donuts at 2pm on Jones last day” doesn’t seem enough. But I can’t figure out if its Jones’s rank at the organization, or his tenure that makes this seem inadequate. Or just the fact that I’m going to miss working with him. I know that traditions for outgoing employees are as much for those who are staying with the company as those who are departing. But doing the exact same cookiecutter goodbye doesn’t seem to have any meaning either.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 12:50 pm Some of it will depend on rank and tenure, but some of it will definitely be just office culture. I’ve worked places where literally nothing officially is done for people leaving. Some of the people who like that person may decide to do something, but otherwise… nothing. I’ve also worked places where there is a huge send-off every time someone leaves, but only if they leave at the end of the school year. The one time I worked at a non-school, they’d bring it up at the all-staff meeting and maybe have a donut party or some kind of cake or other edible. But, yeah, sometimes if it’s a director who’s been there for decades and has brought in a lot of money, there may be a special party for that person, especially if it’s a retirement and not “leaving for a competitor” departure.
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 9:03 pm 15 years does seem pretty milestone-y. For retirements, my office will send out an email asking people to contribute a fond memory / funny story about the person who’s leaving. Sometimes these will be read out loud at an all-staff meeting, or someone will compile a book of the memories and give it to the person. People are asked if they have any pictures. (If Jones is leaving for another job, I don’t know if the above will apply.)
Burnout or B*tchyness?* January 18, 2019 at 12:38 pm Lately I am feeling very short tempered with my grantees (I work for a foundation; we give away funds to individuals and organizations). It seems that they can’t do anything – a simple report, requesting a change or extension – without calling me personally and having me walk them through each and every field. Also, they pester me constantly for updates on things that I am literally working on. I have to stop working on the thing they want to answer their question about when they are going to get their award. I worry this job is too much “helping” work for me and I just don’t have the right temperament / customer service attitude. Today I wanted to send a sharp email saying that a grantees 13 stupid questions prevented five other organizations from getting over a million dollars in awards. Part of it comes from the perspective that we’re giving them free money, yet they can’t even be bothered to read a short email of directions? But I know it’s not their fault, they’re just confused and they don’t spend all day thinking about their grants the way that I do. Does this sound like burnout to you?
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 12:51 pm This sounds a little bit like burnout to me, or maybe external factors are leaking in (other things are frustrating you, leaving you fewer effs to give at work). In the past when they did this, did you have more patience? Sometimes it can grate and grate because you keep doing it with people and they don’t learn, but also because it’s your job and it’s not as important to them, they don’t care as much, also you’ll be having turnover in who you speak to, so there will always be new folks to train.
Rainy days* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm It does sound like burnout. I find that when I’m taking my anger at my job out at people who don’t deserve it, it’s an important sign that it’s time to move on. Still in these situations, I always say to myself: I cannot control their behavior, but I can control mine. What can I do to make this more clear so I get fewer questions? (I used to work with high school students, so believe me, I understand the frustration of people not reading directions! But there was nearly always something I could do to be clearer on my end.) Focusing on what I *can* do helps me handle the frustration better. In your situation, I would see if there are industry buzzwords / jargon you are using that may be confusing, if there may be any second language / cultural issues that are coming into play, if your process is proving burdensome. If there is a grantee you know better, you might ask (in a neutral, genuinely curious tone), “Help me understand what was confusing about what I sent.” Grantees deal with many different grant-making organizations, and each one has its own, sometimes arbitrary, sometimes incredibly exacting procedures. Yours may not be one of them, but when the very existence of an organization or a department depends on these grants, it can be very anxiety-provoking to think that some foundations will reject your application merely for improper formatting, and these feelings can lead to desire to have one’s hand held through the process in order to get it right. I totally understand your frustration, but there’s a lot of anxiety on the other end and it’s worth asking what is in your power to alleviate it.
Dealtwiththis* January 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm With that many organizations needing to be walked through how to fill out a form, I wonder if your directions or requirements aren’t as clear as you think they are? I would have someone who is completely removed from the process (a spouse or friend in an unrelated field) take a look at your form and write down every question that came to their mind as they were trying to fill it out. Also, I will mention that many non-profits are coached to develop a personal relationship with the administration at foundations and are taught to never just submit something and to always reach out to the foundation for encouragement that they are on the right track before submitting. Could you maybe set some guidelines saying that you won’t take calls or that you will set up one thirty minute phone call per year with each org. or something similar that could help your sanity? Then include those rules everywhere you can on your website and form. Also, including more guidelines about what type of projects you fund and giving a range to ask for may help to cut down on the constant questions.
Burnout or B*tchyness?* January 18, 2019 at 3:00 pm Yes, I am aware that some of them may be trying to “network” even though you’d think they’d realize they’re creating an actively bad impression (“Oh, so you want me to put the ORGANIZATION NAME where it says ORG NAME?? Okay great, thanks so much! Sorry to have called you twice!”).
valentine* January 19, 2019 at 10:59 pm Make sure you’re meant to do this much handholding and, if so, film a tutorial showing how to fill out forms and designate office hours for any questions not answered in it. Screen your calls and filter your email until that time.
Bad Salesperson* January 18, 2019 at 12:41 pm I just got transferred to a district closer to home and away from my incredibly annoying manager. Someone remind me I shouldn’t email our district manager and cc his assistant manager with a list of all the reservations I have about her? A short list of those reasons: – bragged about EXTREMELY RACIST ways she hassled athletes on opposing teams in college (hitting gongs when Asian athletes were announced, shaking giant maracas at Hispanic ones, yelling affirmative action ‘jokes’ at African-American players) — Explaining the above was totally fine bc they didn’t use slurs, they were more creative than that – Pulled up and made me watch a song and dance routine about how abduction is an A+ relationship model (“Sobbin’ Women” from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, title is a pun on the rape of the Sabine women) – regularly overshares medical information – asked me to read her novel manuscript. we’re in sales. – brags about her international travel while shortened post-holiday hours mean I’m wondering if I can buy groceries without breaking into emergency savings and at least I’m lucky enough to HAVE emergency savings – ‘joked’ about how with the shortened post-holiday hours she COULD just schedule me and her other subordinate for one day each so she could get her 40 hours — I don’t know what my face looked like but she immediately assured me she wouldn’t do that bc it would be ‘mean’ – regularly pressures me to purchase a new Chocolate Teapot despite my making it clear that the price is prohibitive — the fanciest teapots cost more than a month’s rent when you add up the payments — yes, we get commission on chocolate teapots and I’m sure we can’t sell them to ourselves – Never. Stops. Talking. It is never work-related. – NO SENSE OF PERSONAL SPACE EITHER Note that I did report the CHEERFUL ANECDOTE ABOUT RACISM at the time, to DM. I was advised to ‘discuss it with her.’ Given she is my direct supervisor, I didn’t. (She and I are both white, DM isn’t).
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm Not sure who you reported the racism anecdote (wow, what a phrase to type), but if it wasn’t the district manager then I’d consider letting him know about #’s 1 and 2, and maybe 3. The rest I’d let go personally, unless the discussion moved in a direction that he specifically asked you for more information. And then I’d take out anything that wasn’t 100% professionally related, versus things that were personally annoying. I don’t know your org structure, but not sure about whether necessary/appropriate to cc the asst district manager or not. For the racism/bigotry related issues, the more we can all continue to try to be part of calling this out, the better. Good on you for considering it.
BuildMeUp* January 18, 2019 at 2:00 pm The only things I would consider reporting would be the racism. Everything else is annoying/frustrating, but the racist stuff is a big deal and I feel like everything else would just muddy the issue. It sounds like you already reported this to your district manager – I’m assuming that’s what DM stands for? In that case, reporting it to them again doesn’t seem like it will help. Is there someone above them you can contact? I would tell them you reported it to your DM at the time, but they told you to talk to your supervisor yourself instead of escalating it/handling it themselves, and you wanted someone higher up to know about it. Then give a very factual recounting of the incidents.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 10:39 am It would be appropriate to, when you leave this job and if asked, mention that this manager had some boundary issues that contributed to your leaving.
catsaway* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm Any tips or ideas for taking full advantage of a mentor program? I am a post-doc in a STEM field who is participating as a mentee in the alumni mentor program put on by the college I’m part of at my current university. This is the first year post-docs have been allowed to participate in this program. The meeting structure suggested by the program is 1 ~1 hour meeting/month for 8 months and some sort of half day job shadow. I am having trouble thinking of topics to talk about with my mentor. I put together some SMART goals, like practice interview questions, creating elevator pitches and turning my CV into a resume, but I don’t have enough for 6 more meetings. My mentor is located in another state so our meetings are over Skype during the work day. As such the meetings feel very ‘official’ to me – it’s hard for me to make small talk/general conversation since it’s the middle of the day and they’re only scheduled for 30 minutes. In addition, I interned for the company my mentor works for last summer, and so while they work in a different division and it’s a very large company (household name in the US) I don’t really feel like asking a lot about their typical day or to introduce me to some of their colleagues would be very useful because I’ve already done short one on one meetings with a lot of people there and with my internship I sat in on a lot of meetings across a reasonable number of groups. So, any ideas of what I can do to make this experience more worthwhile, for me and for my mentor? FWIW, on the program application I indicated that I preferred a local mentor if possible, to meet professionals in the city I’m currently in, and I preferred to be placed with someone who didn’t work for the company I interned with, so some of my feelings might be due to feeling a little irritated with the mentor program. Also, I realize that I am fortunate to have some of my mentors time because I know it’s valuable so that’s why I want to make good use of this program.
NotThatKindofMarineBiologist* January 18, 2019 at 4:04 pm I would ask for networking advice (who to approach, how, what conferences to attend, what events at those conferences are best for networking), what you should get out of your first job, the most effective resume builders (publish papers vs. new projects vs. collaboration vs. grants under your name). I’d also ask them to connect you with other people in your field who work in slightly different jobs – so examples of people they work with who were once in your position (as a post-doc) who went a different way, like work for a non-profit or for the government. I’d also ask them about career-life balance in general (not just in their company) and the nuts-and-bolts of how they advanced their career while having a life (or not having a life). Since you don’t see them in action on a daily basis, I’d ask how they spend each hour of their day: how much time spent on administration, grant writing, answering emails, mentoring or managing people, dealing with the board of directors, meeting with outside collaborators. In my experience, a post-doc is the time for you to figure out what you want the rest of your career to include. You can’t necessarily make a blueprint for the rest of your career, but you can do some soul-searching about what boundaries define what you’ll accept from a future job. I found the post post-doc job search daunting as there were very few TT teaching jobs available in my field, and knowing that I wanted a certain amount of work-life balance and what my “minimum” was for job satisfaction were helpful when I decided to leave academia.
catsaway* January 18, 2019 at 5:46 pm Thank-you for this list. There are a lot of topics I haven’t thought of yet.
Rainy days* January 18, 2019 at 12:43 pm Asking on behalf of my husband– He was nominated for an employee excellence award. Great, right? Yesterday he recieved the text of the nomination and was offended on a few levels. For example, he was the primary designer on a new public-facing product, but in the nomination his boss was credited as the designer, and he was credited with executing her vision. A quote was included from another staff member saying that the design team “didn’t really understand” the idea behind product they were creating. And only his assistant director was credited as supporting him on the execution, when in reality there were many others who participated and did the un-glorious grunt work without which it wouldn’t have been possible. Is it worth saying something? I’m sure the text of the nomination isn’t going to be referenced in the future and the nomination will still be valuable for his resume. On the other hand, does it point to deeper problems with how he’s seen that are worth addressing?
Less Bread More Taxes* January 18, 2019 at 2:33 pm Absolutely he should say something! “I so appreciate this award, but I just wanted to get those details straight before it’s printed: I was the primary designer, not my manager. Also Steve, Jane, and Bobby helped tremendously on the project in addition to Assistant Director. Let me know if there’s anything else you need to make those changes!”
Trauma Informed Offices* January 18, 2019 at 12:45 pm Does anyone have an office that’s gone through a “trauma informed care” process? So, I have PTSD, and to the outside eye I’m very high functioning. I know the initiative is well intentioned, but I feel like so much of it just stigmatizes traumatized people. For example, someone in the trauma informed committee recently said in a meeting something like, “Traumatized people can’t see the logic in things.” (He said it in the context of like, providing additional explanations to people.) Like… the fuck? I’m more logical than you, bro. The powerpoint for the training literally has an image of a brain with a pie chart superimposed on it, with the pie chart being like “10x likely to commit suicide” “4x likely to have alcoholism.” For the record, it’s not the stats that bother me, but that they’re in a pie chart implying a traumatized person is nothing but the sum of increased odds of suffering. I actually brought this up and got rebuffed. They also seem to lump any form of misbehavior, toxic stress, and mental illness under the “traumatized” umbrella which I find problematic. But I know it’s probably not worth the stress for me to tell them how I feel about it.
Rainy days* January 18, 2019 at 2:39 pm Huh. That’s super interesting. I don’t have PTSD but I know “trauma-informed care” is a big buzzword these days and to me it seems like hearing perspectives like yours would be valuable, but not at the expense of your own mental health / stress. Can you find any articles that expresses the sorts of ideas you wish were being recognized, and send it to your manager, without outing yourself? Like “Hey, I was clicking around on the internet and I came across this article–it helped me understand how we can understand people who have experienced trauma as whole individuals. Is there a way to incorporate this perspective into our next training?”
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 9:18 pm Trauma-informed care is huge where I am, and I’m actually glad to see it gaining the status of being a big buzzword as trauma can have such long-lasting repercussions. The persons in your committee are in grievous error and either didn’t receive proper training or failed to understand what they did receive. Kudos for you to speaking up about it when you did; that was probably not the easiest thing in the world to do. I’m sorry you got shut down. It’s entirely up to you if you want to forge ahead with this; educating people can be thankless and stressful, plus you having PTSD is your business. If you do decide it’s worth speaking up about it again, I agree with Rainy Days that pulling some research could help. Things like understanding trauma’s effects on behavior, triggers, perhaps even de-escalation might get them past their flip statements and pie charts into truly being informed.
Master Bean Counter* January 18, 2019 at 12:46 pm Someone please grant me some patience…. We are starting a big software change over project at work. On the good side, this is not MY project. But there are areas where I am going to lead and steer. The first phase got handed to me yesterday in a meeting. Also in this meeting the project manager (PM) keep answering my questions instead of the consultant, who know the product. His answers weren’t complete and were a bit condescending as I wasn’t grasping his non-explanation. If he gets it everybody else in the room must have gotten as well—*insert eye roll*. I’ve got six more months of this ahead. Before we left the room he asked me no less than 3 times to set up a meeting between the people most involved in my piece. Now I have to prep material and get my thoughts straight before I would even think of setting this meeting. I really like everyone who shows up to be ready to discuss the topic, not review the materials. Review is for emails, IMO, not to make meeting even longer. Anyway I emailed back and forth with the consultant this morning and now I’ve got a plan. So my piece is coming together nicely. But I’m now afraid the PM is going to try to micromanage everything. Which is not going to work with me. I need patience, and if anybody has any ideas how to deal with a PM that’s overbearing, I’m all ears. On a related note I heard PM and my boss talking about the printer we all share running out of paper in one of the trays two weeks ago. You would think that one of them would replace the paper at this point right? You’d be wrong. They’ve never replaced the paper ever in this printer. I’ve always been the one to do it. Upon hearing this conversation I decided that I’d print to the other side of the office before I replace the paper this time. The printer finally ran out of paper yesterday. The PM ended up filling it back up.
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 9:20 pm Ah, the joy of a poorly-trained PM. I don’t have any advice as I’m currently dealing with the ridiculousness of our own PMs, but I was gleeful at you not replacing the paper. :)
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 12:46 pm Micromanaging can be a form of too much worrying. Try to frame it in your head that this guy is a worry wart. What to do with worry warts. Well, put dates on everything as you complete it. Make copies or send preemptive strike emails, “I thought you would want to know if X got done. I just finished it today, so X is done.” Try to look one step ahead and line up what you need for the next upcoming step. Keep lists, records, notes to yourself more than usual. I had a worry wart boss who asked me when I did the inventory. She wanted the exact date. I had done the inventory six months ago, but I wrote the date down on top of the inventory when I completed it. It was just a random thing, that made sense to do. Sure enough, six months later she wanted to know the exact date. I had the date. It blew her mind. (Chaotic workplace. No one had dates written down like that.) After a few similar instances, Worry Wart found someone else to pester. I was not giving her the drama she required. And definitely don’t do things for people, such as filling the paper tray. Remember, it’s really important to let people have their own learning experiences. ;) It also helps to keep the rest of us from walking on the ceiling all the time.
Way to the Dawn* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm Might be a little late in the game this afternoon but would appreciate any input! I am early in my career in public health (I have an MPH and about 2 years of experience). I would really like to go into project management within this field. I know I would eventually like to get the PMP certificate but I don’t have the experience for it now. It looks like they have a Certified Associate in Project Management (CAPM) that I could get. Does anyone know if that is in any way valuable? Or if there are other education/certification opportunities for early career professionals wanting to go into project management?
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 3:30 pm Are you able to ask the opinion/advice of those at your local professional organization? I know where I live there is a project management professional group. Might seek them out and ask them about this. They will know which certs are valuable.
Jan Levinson* January 18, 2019 at 12:58 pm Happy Friday, all! Just wanted to chime in and say how I love that EVERYONE in my office, and every customer that has come in today is wearing Chiefs gear. :)
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm We must be in the same city. : ) (If not, that’s a weird bunch of people who are oddly dedicated to the Chiefs.)
Jan Levinson* January 18, 2019 at 1:40 pm We must be! Although I like to think that there will be a LOT of Chiefs fans this weekend, even outside of KC. :)
Emmalou* January 18, 2019 at 6:26 pm You support a team with a racist name and mascot that beats on a faux Native-American drum and does a faux Native-American chant?
Mary Tyler Moore* January 18, 2019 at 12:59 pm Thanks to those of you who commented about your experiences on the post from earlier this month about the employee whose boss was trying to manage their diabetes! I was just diagnosed with Type 1 a few weeks ago. What considerations should I have for how to manage my diabetes in the workplace? I have not had any issues so far. I’ve told a few of my coworkers I work closely with. I haven’t told my supervisor because I am worried about comments he might make, but I have let him know I’m dealing with an ongoing medical issue that may affect my work. I test and do injections quietly at my desk, where I have a hidden sharps disposal. So far only one person has caught me “in the act” but I dismissed her concern and it hasn’t come up since. I’ve had a few low sugar episodes while at work, but I’ve dealt with them quickly in the moment and had no immediate disruption to my work. Most of my time is spent at my desk, but when I am out working with our clients, I have my CGM reader and glucose tablets on hand just in case. I work at a small nonprofit in the US that does not have a formal HR department. We use a third-party organization for our HR needs. So, like, overall I think I’m doing fine! But I can’t shake the feeling that I’m forgetting about some huge important precautions I should be putting in place. Is there anything I’m not thinking of? Thanks in advance for your help!!
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Note: I do not have diabetes. I think if you’re doing injections at work and have a sharps container, you should let your boss know, just in case some coworker comes and says “I think Mary Tyler Moore is doing something something drugs, I saw her injecting, oh noes”. A heads up in advance could head-off some awkwardness in the future.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm I do have Type 1 diabetes (nearly 20 years). You’re doing exactly what I did and what I would recommend. Except for the Sharps. I use the same syringe for the day. Do always make sure you have glucose and or snacks on hand, and maybe some extra supplies like the syringes (I loathe getting into work and realizing I forgot something). You’ve got this!
Arielle* January 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm It’s a totally reasonable question from someone newly diagnosed, but as someone who has had Type 1 diabetes for over 20 years, I can’t think of any huge important precautions you might be missing. I’ve never filed anything with HR or anything like that and never had an issue. I suppose if you think it’s likely to impact your work you might request some kind of accommodations but I can’t even think of what those would be for your basic office job. (Manual labor, retail, etc. of course would be different.)
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 6:40 pm One thing I’d recommend is, if you’d like to keep your diabetes discreet from your coworkers, is to invest in a Medical Alert bracelet that indicates you are a diabetic. People with first aid/first responder training (coworkers who have it from other jobs, the security guards, police, EMTs) are trained to look for these when responding to someone who is disoriented or unconscious. There’s tons of different bracelet designs, too, if you’d prefer something less obvious.
Anonymooos* January 18, 2019 at 1:01 pm I received a directive from our CEO that we need to “lean” out the company and replace 20-30% of our lower performing employees with “better” ones. So essentially being asked to stack rank. I don’t necessarily disagree – I have had some lower performing employees both on a PIP and who don’t quite qualify (or maybe I’m just being too much of a wuss to actually manage them out.) The employees aren’t necessarily super bad at their jobs, just very outspoken about issues that aren’t always in my control. There is a lot of entitlement and presumption that because my team makes the teapots our company sells, they should have a lot of say in how we market the teapots. We’ve hired younger/less experienced people for this role but the more vocal complaints do come from people who have worked in office environments before. Their complaints do negatively affect other employees, so some may see their departure as a relief (I know I will since these employees are just challenging to manage). I was promised that this would affect all teams (because I don’t want to have to fire people and then see other lower performers stay on!) What I don’t know is if we can hire before we fire. I think it would be grossly unfair to fire people and then dump all their work on the good employees that we value and want to keep! I think that would have the complete opposite effect intended – we want to keep the motivated people here. Has anyone actually seen this tactic of mass firing to be effective? Anything I could prepare for in terms of blowback?
Less Bread More Taxes* January 18, 2019 at 2:29 pm Wait I’m confused – are they firing low performers or outspoken employees? If it’s low performers, are they all very clear about the expectations and do they understand that they will be fired soon if they don’t improve? Is your company willing to let them improve? If it’s outspoken employees, this just seems very unethical. It’s one thing to be causing trouble, but it sounds like you’re trying to gloss over problems by hiring more complacent people, and that’s really an issue.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 3:21 pm How are you going to find their replacements and when? Are they going to cut the low performers and then find what they hope will be stronger performers?? Are they going to raise the wages they’re offering or adjust their benefits package to entice higher performers? Are they offering competitive wages in the first place? So many questions and images in my minds of flames. I have had plenty of people who have eventually needed to be let go but there has to a very detailed strategy. Are these easily filed spots with a lot of pull for the jobs? I have had a heck of a time to fill vacancies when they’re done because someone leaves, let alone if I just pulled the cord on them myself. I dislike the verbiage of “outspoken” because it sounds a little like “they won’t stay in their lane” and that voicing decent means that you’re going to be on the chopping block, which gets sticky to say the least. Are you looking for just yes men?
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 1:43 pm I agree with what others have said here. I’d like to add is there a means for their suggestions to be heard? I am not saying implemented, I am just saying heard. This is something beyond a suggestion box, I mean a real conversation. People who feel unheard also tend to feel disrespected. How many people are in your group and what does 20-30% of your group look like in real numbers? I do know that some angry employees will never calm down. Some angry employees can talk through their concerns. If you haven’t started evaluating people on their attitude, it might be time to start. You can also keep productivity records and that should be part of their evaluations, too. It sounds like the ones on PIPs are the ones with the bad attitudes. If that is the case then no problem. Yes, you do need to let people go who don’t measure up. I always thought to myself, “If I don’t let them go, then the company will let go of ME, because I can’t manage.” Give them the best opportunity to raise up their standards, give them a time frame to do it. If there is no change then they pretty much have to move on. Tell them point blank what is at stake. I don’t know what your company has planned or what they will do. I can’t see a mass firing as ever going well. However, you can control your one square foot of the company. This means telling your people what is up. I would start with how the company is concerned about productivity levels. It could just be my experience but once management started watching productivity levels the Negative Neds and Nancys started working their way out the door. People can self-select and leave under their own steam. Then you tell your new hires that productivity and good attitude are super important. In a few places I found we did more work with less people. For one thing they got in each other’s way, physically and figuratively speaking. And as you say here the Negative People really slowed down work flows. The other thing you can do is ask your people to get more involved in streamlining their processes. Let them make suggestions and implement the good suggestions. This is something you can do within your own group. If you have known slackers then do something about that. Your whole group knows who works and who doesn’t. We, as bosses, look silly at best if we do not respond to a consistently low producing worker. You move the slackers along and your team will thank you.
shyness* January 18, 2019 at 1:06 pm I just accepted a new job. I’m very shy and introverted. I’m terrible at small talk and being the centre of attention. I’m 20 years into my career, and it just seems to keep getting worse every time I’m in a new situation. I don’t want to come across as snobby or uninterested in other people, I just really struggle with meeting and building relationships with people and I don’t like talking about myself with people I don’t know. I particularly have a problem being my authentic self and I act overly professional at work. I do take meds for social anxiety, and therapy isn’t really an option now since I have no benefits. Looking for some tips/books/strategies for meeting new people and developing good working relationships while shy/socially anxious. Thanks!
JennyFair* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Ask your new coworkers about themselves. They’ll get busy talking about themselves and never notice you haven’t said much :) Congrats on the new job!
Rainy days* January 18, 2019 at 1:16 pm Agree with the “ask people about themselves”, and then make eye contact, smile, and nod. It goes a long way. Other than that, I think it’s also okay to focus on being good at your job. People will forgive awkwardness if you are really cooperative, efficient, blandly pleasant, etc.
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 1:38 pm I don’t like to talk about myself at work, and I am a total extrovert. I ask questions like Rainy and Jenny suggested. When asked if I have kids “No, I don’t… what about you?!” and then ask about their grades, what their interests are, to see a picture. People generally like to talk about themselves and will walk away feeling like they had a great conversation, even though you directed everything back to them. Often introverts find it hard to embellish, so someone will ask “How was your weekend.” and the instinct is to say “Fine.” But try something like “Good! Even if it was mostly just grocery shopping and laundry. haha. I hope yours was more exciting!” People connect to those little mundane things. Be kind to yourself, we all have a tendency to replay a conversation in our head and think we messed up or we weren’t interesting enough, or we said something dumb. But usually, the other person isn’t thinking those things.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:02 am I ask people about their pets and tell them what I’ve read on these here Interwebs.
shyness* January 21, 2019 at 11:03 am Thanks guys, these are really good tips. I don’t have kids either so it sometimes feels awkward without that connection but this is helpful!
Parenthetically* January 18, 2019 at 1:20 pm I’m a very socially anxious person who grew up with parents whose jobs meant I was constantly having to make small talk with people (think small-town politician, school board member, business leader type positions). My advice: SCRIPTS. Literally memorize scripts for various situations. Do NOT leave yourself to improvise. Actually sit down with pen and paper and think through, “What conversational scenarios am I likely to encounter on the first day?” Meeting coworkers, ok, what do Adult Humans say in that situation? What questions should I ask? What questions am I likely to receive? Write down scripts and commit them to memory. And arm yourself with stuff other people wrote — I crib lines from movies and tv shows because I suck so badly at coming up with things to say. But also, I had to make myself stop feeling bad about this, because we used to have these scripts BUILT IN to our culture/lives, and now we don’t. Think about how introductions go in, like, Jane Austen novels. There were rules about who spoke to whom first, what EXACTLY they said to whom and in what order, the correct response from the people being introduced, EXACTLY what questions could then be asked, polite formulas for excusing oneself from conversations or declining invitations to dance or whatnot — and now it’s all just feckin’ chaos, Conversational Thunderdome where everyone has to come up with their own sh!t or feel embarrassed and inept, like, forever. So spare yourself that and just write your own MFing Emily Post Handbook On What To Say To Coworkers (Chapter One, “Good God, How Do I Answer ‘How You Doin’?”).
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 2:04 pm I am a big fan of a multi-pronged approach. You know this worry is a lot of stress. Stress taxes the physical body in so many ways. What is doable for you to support your body during this process? Hydration, veggies, rest, electrolytes, exercise. This stuff sounds like a drop in a large bucket, it sounds like nothingness. However, you don’t need to do all of it and of what you do you don’t need to do it all the time. Put stuff into your self-care that lifts you up, helps you along. Some care gains you some benefit, more care means more benefit. FWIW, it’s okay to have a professional persona and an at-home persona. For example, I don’t cuss much at work. In one place, people noticed so much that they apologized to me if they cussed. I felt bad about that, because outside of work I definitely was not cuss-free. Other components of your at-work-personality can include not discussing personal stuff too much and this can cover everything from finances, health or just life at home. You can read the local news and find topics to talk about that way. I do think it is helpful to make a little list of things you will talk about. I get a lot of mileage out of talking about the silly thing the dog did this morning. Yes, plan ahead, figure out what you WILL say. It’s okay to plan ahead and it’s a good idea to plan this out.
shyness* January 21, 2019 at 11:06 am This is great advice too. I am exactly the same with swearing. Work colleagues think I never swear but my husband would tell them differently! Too bad I don’t have pets (husband’s allergies) because that’s a good way to connect. Great idea to plan ahead. I’ll look for some scripts to help. Thank you!
Coffee please!* January 18, 2019 at 1:07 pm I had an interview where they asked the question, “How do you manage work/life balance, since you have a young child?” This question felt weird, and I’m not sure what they were trying to get out of it. I’m a woman in a male dominated field, and it felt a little sexist. Or am I overthinking this? Any ideas on what the point of the question could have been? And is it a red flag? It was a planned question, he had it written down and it wasn’t in response to anything I said.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 1:11 pm Possibly sexist, possibly just awkwardly-phrased. How did the rest of it go? Any other red flags? I agree they are probably not asking their male candidates that question. I do wonder, since it was written down and planned, not off the cuff, how he knew you had a kid?
Coffee please!* January 18, 2019 at 4:02 pm It had come up in a previous interview as why I left my last company (50% travel, plus a long commute, couldn’t do it with a new baby). Maybe I shouldn’t have given that reason, but I’m not sure what else to say.
Gumby* January 18, 2019 at 6:01 pm I think in this case you opened up the topic for discussion. From their perspective: you already left one job because of work/life balance – are you sure that you won’t have similar problems now? Had you not already revealed that, I would side-eye the question more.
Faith* January 18, 2019 at 1:15 pm I would definitely take it as a red flag. Would you have received a similar question if you were a man? I doubt it. Would he have asked about you managing your work/life balance if you didn’t have any children but were a sole caretaker of an elderly relative?
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 1:18 pm He’s pretty lucky he didn’t interview me. I’d have unleashed my woman-in-a-male-dominated-field fury all over him. His assumption is you will “only” want to work 40 hrs a week, you’ll run out the door for daycare pick up at 5:00 pm, and you’re carrying all the load of your household duties by yourself. He won’t be able to count on you when a project needs to get something done and needs you there on the weekend, or late in the evening. I find this from men who have stay-at-home wives, less so from coworkers whose wives are also career-minded. I don’t think I’d want to work FOR this guy. I might put up with him if he was a peer.
Coffee please!* January 18, 2019 at 4:00 pm He did mention that they had other employees with stay at home wives who homeschooled their kids. I found myself explaining that we use daycare and that I’m ok with that. That whole part of the conversation just felt weird to me.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 1:37 pm It’s for sure sexist. They would never have asked that of a man with a young child. “How do you manage work/life balance, since you’re a father with a young child?” No. Add to that that any question involving marital status, pregnancy, or young children during the interview phase… that’s a huge red flag!
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 1:44 pm Wow! That is walking right up to the line!!! I would say something like “I’ve been doing it long enough that I have a good handle on how to manage! What is the culture here on work-life balance?” I would see it as a red flag, most companies that have a really great work-life balance are proud of it and talk about it openly. At my company we tell people, we are flexible with work from home schedules, we have a generous PTO schedule, and we value our employees and their families.
The Man, Becky Lynch* January 18, 2019 at 2:16 pm Someone needs to coach this idiot on appropriate questions. Woah treading on the discrimination of protected classes lines. He shouldn’t even know let alone bring your kids into the discussion. Fun fact we have active dads around here and they take a ton of time off and it impacts things just as much. But we don’t care because they’re within their rights to have family obligations.
Kimmybear* January 19, 2019 at 7:35 am My understanding (thought I am not an HR professional) is that the question is not illegal. Basing hiring decisions on it is which is why most people say not to ask the question.
limenotapple* January 18, 2019 at 1:09 pm Any academic librarians out there? I’m looking for a new job with more responsibility. I’m faculty in my current position, but our standards for promotion are pretty low and we don’t really have to publish. It seems like every job I apply for, I’ll need to have published (and not just presented). I’m really feeling like this isn’t going to happen without doing a significant amount of publishing, and even though I’m great at my job, great at managing people, great at creating community, etc., I just don’t have any great ideas for writing papers. Is this going to hold me back forever?
Nynaeve* January 18, 2019 at 8:21 pm Not publishing will hold you back in many academic libraries, but it’s not insurmountable. Here are some options: *Look for jobs where librarians are not tenure-track faculty *If you have posters or presentations that got good feedback, try to rework them as a paper *Look for other librarians (or other faculty) who might be interested in collaborating–someone who has ideas but doesn’t want to/know how to do the research or writing might be a good match here *Professional library organizations often have mentor programs–see if you can get matched with a mentor with publishing experience *Mention in your interviews that you’re looking for more publishing opportunities and mentorship (if true)–they may be willing to help you get up to speed if that’s main weak spot and they are attracted to your other strengths Hope that helps. Good luck!
Ashie* January 18, 2019 at 1:21 pm Part of the project I run requires me to compile statistics from various cities & counties around my state. I have an ongoing relationship with most of these and they usually send me the numbers with just an informal request. However there are a few for while I have to submit FOIA requests and I get the impression that recipients are really offended when I do that. I don’t want to piss people off but I need this information. What gives?
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 1:24 pm FOIAs are a pain in the neck to respond to. Since it sounds like you don’t have a relationship with them outside of this, is there anyone in your org who has a better relationship with the places and can work this out with them? Or can you just adjust to only asking for data that’s already public?
Teapot librarian* January 18, 2019 at 1:32 pm That’s really annoying that they make you submit FOIA requests and then get pissy that you submitted the request under the FOIA framework. FOIA *ought* to be the recourse when the government is being obstructionist. It could be that the FOIA officer is pissy about having to respond to the request because it means more paperwork, etc., when they wouldn’t have to do it if the person with the information had just provided it to you, darn it, instead of being obstructionist.
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 2:29 pm I thought FOIAs were just for when polite requests were refused. In other words a FOIA is a sledgehammer way of asking. I would try a couple ideas: — maybe there is a better time of day or week to ask. Maybe some weeks are better than other weeks, such as the week the End of the Month reports are due might be a bad week. — maybe you are asking the wrong person. (I have asked the wrong person for years, because it never dawned on me to ask if I had the right person. yikes.) –maybe they would prefer you just ask rather than FOIA it. –If I have a request that will come up again, I like to tell people when I will be contacting them again. “I will be in touch same time next week/month with the same request.” Sometimes if people know they will hear from you again, that softens their demeanor. –if you use the information in even a half interesting way, why not tell them about how you use the info? A brief description of course. “I need to know the number of grasshoppers in the county each month because my work entails tracking the Great Grasshopper Eating Finch. If the finch runs out of food, I need to report that to Someone Who Cares.” Sometimes when people know what you are doing a connection forms and you get less resistance. –sometimes ignoring the attitude is enough to get over the hurdle. Me: Good morning, Mean Marie, how are you doing today? Mean Marie: Good. Me: [ignoring the mono-syllable reply] Good, glad to hear that! It’s that time again, where I ask you for the county grasshopper count. Our finches seem to be doing quite well lately. Mean Marie: You know, you were talking about that the last time and I saw an article on the news and thought of you. Me: [Mean Marie’s word count has spiked, I might be gaining ground here.] You have nothing to lose by checking a few angles to see if you can smooth things out. It could be those people are just grouches and that is who they are.
StellaBella* January 18, 2019 at 1:23 pm Good news! I have now had 3 interviews for 3 different orgs/jobs in the past 2 weeks. Second interview for one job is a written test I need to do at home (marketing-comms samples for writing and outreach), and will likely hear end of next week on other two jobs if I go back for second rounds, too. Super excited! Also – I prepared a TON (like 24 hrs over 4 days) for first interview and am excited I have the test now, too. For second one, I did about 6 hrs prep max (mostly reading website and JD and addressing issues in my CV). This recent interview was today, about 8 hrs of prep, interview was with Director and office manager. Oddly tho: interview today was a train wreck. High turnover on team and vague (as in NO NUMBERS) in the annual report for several years. There was a sign on the table in common area that literally said, “DON’T GOSSIP” and the 2 people I spoke with have been there together 10 years but staff of 8 others are turning over like once a year for roles…I spoke to them for an hour but have already sent a polite withdraw email to the HR person (this is for a small group inside a large org that has a lot of other teams). The interview started today with the Director asking me why I applied at this small group and not in the Other Group More In Line with Your CV…. uh, because they had no roles, I have just moved back and did not know of that team, and this role seemed a good match on paper which is why you are interviewing me? When I asked why the last person in the role left the Director said she just gave no notice and left (not possible here – well – mostly not – as this country, not USA – demands at least 4 weeks’ notice) …. so … I NOPE’d out of there and will move onward and upward. :) So – FINGERS CROSSED I hope I am soon employed in a place that is great with good (sane) managers. I am channeling my phrase of the year – STRONG POSITIVITY and focusing on becoming gainfully employed in a good org, with a good team and great manager. And a shout-out thank you so much to Alison for various advice on cover letters and CVs. I revised my CV heavily in December per advice here and wow has it helped me – THANK YOU ALISON! I used the interview questions, too that you have provided and wow, they help a lot!
Me--Blargh!* January 18, 2019 at 1:24 pm The only thing that responded to me this week was an admin job for a wealth management franchise office that offers retirement benefits and PTO (sure, Jan), but no health insurance. After I filled out a draconian application and they asked for three references. Can you say “We’re looking for someone who is still on their parents’ insurance or on their spouse’s so we can save money and if you die from lack of preventive care we don’t have to pay out any retirement money and are probably paying $10 an hour”? I knew that you could.
653-CXK* January 18, 2019 at 2:09 pm I can top that, if you don’t mind me venting just a little bit… 1. I had a job interview last week with a company in downtown Boston. At first I was extremely nervous, but the interviewers put me at ease and we had a fantastic interview. I went back to the recruiter and told her it was a great fit and I was very much interested about 20 minutes after the interview ended. I contacted the recruiter Friday, and she said, “Thanks for asking…we’ll get feedback soon!” Contacted the recruiters again on Tuesday…and it turns out one of the interviewers at the company rejected all four interviewees, including myself, and the person who handles the account is trying to find out why. I know for sure it isn’t the agency stalling (they’ve been beyond stellar in keeping me informed), but likely the company. I’m thinking one of two things: (a) personality issues, or (b) “those with broad scope and breadth of knowledge need not apply.” 2. Yesterday I had an interview for a position in our state court system, south of Boston. I got there a few minutes late due to transit, and they directed me to a place to wait. I waited an hour and a half (side note: it’s always interesting to watch those with criminal cases mill around and talk to their lawyers, and people being led about in handcuffs) until I got a court balliff to find out whether or not I would be interviewed. Ten additional minutes later, one of the interviewers finally came up (another side note: I don’t like being gaslighted into believing “we tried calling your name several times” when I couldn’t hear you over the din of lawyers and defendants), and we had probably the briefest interview in my memory (less than ten minutes!) before they told me “we won’t be making decisions until the end of February.” After having a hearty post-interview lunch at the local Five Guys, I went to their website on the phone and withdrew from consideration without a scrap of regret. I dodged a bullet. 3. I have another iron in the fire for a job outside of Boston. It’s part time, a two month contract with extension, but at least it has potential to become permanent (and I could make my own hours). Of course, I’ve been saying this over the course of, oh, eight months, but it always seems to end with no job. It reminds me of Lucy and the football – she has it out easy to kick, only to take it away at the last second. Thank God I have money saved up, but I don’t want to use it all…I want to get back into a good routine and work again. 4. Yeah, I’ve had those offers from life insurance companies that are 100% commission and nothing else. I avoid them like the plague. And $10 an hour was great in 1996; not so these days.
Me--Blargh!* January 18, 2019 at 3:25 pm Seriously, I’m about to just burn the house down in a blatant attempt at insurance fraud and take the conviction. Three hots and a cot, right!?!* I saw a proofreader job I could do in Boston. Looked great. Seaport area–average rents start at $3000 a month. -_- Nope. *i would never do this
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 3:35 pm Well nobody that works as a proofreader (or anything else in publishing) would ever live in Boston proper, silly! You’d live in Somerville or Arlington or Medford or something and take the T. Seriously, I am sorry you are having such trouble finding a damn job!
Me--Blargh!* January 18, 2019 at 5:46 pm IT IS INSANE IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL I’ve never even been to Boston; I don’t know if I would like it. I wanted to move to California. Maybe the universe is keeping me here due to pending apocalypse, so I can bravely shoulder a big old machete and go out among the ruins to chop down the bad guys? Also, I just cleaned the damn house, but it still looks dirty! Burn! BURN!
I edit everything* January 18, 2019 at 1:27 pm I’m a freelance editor, most of the time, but have been seeing the attraction of a regular, if small, paycheck for a variety of reasons. I live in a small town (~6,000 people) in a rural state, so finding something appropriate has been difficult. This week, through the small-town grapevine I heard about a part-time admin job with the town’s tourism office, which sounds just right. I fired off a cover letter and resume, and it turns out that the head of the tourism bureau board is a friend of mine. So I have a great inside track to this job that would really help out a lot. I spoke to her briefly today, and she told me that what they’re hoping to do is bring in all the candidates for a group interview. Eek! I’m an introvert, not great at interjecting myself into a conversation with people I don’t know well, and tend to sit back and observe more than put myself forward in a situation like this. Does anyone have any hints for navigating a group interview? It will be the board members and however many candidates they have, so groups on both sides. Also, after the interview, do I send the thank you note to the board generally, or an individual note to each board member? Or do I call my friend and say, “I’m going to go public with this video of you playing Rock Band for the first time, singing loudly and not particularly well, unless you hire me.”? (Just kidding about that last option.) Help!
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:09 pm The best way to navigate a group interview is to just drive on by but that’s probably not helpful advice. Are you sure they want to bring in all the candidates as a group, not that they would have several people interviewing you? Which still seems like overkill for a part time admin position. Hmm. Are you sure you want this job?
I edit everything* January 18, 2019 at 3:02 pm Yep, I’m sure. The board is made up of Very Busy People, so they only want to have to get together once. The job hasn’t been posted, to my knowledge, so I’m hopeful the number of candidates will be tiny. One would be ideal. But small towns, you know.
Erin* January 18, 2019 at 1:30 pm I’m hoping for some help here, because I’m truly struggling at work. I’m not at all new to working, although a poorly-timed college graduation (hello, 2008!) definitely put a hamper on my job prospects. I had an amazing job that I loved that I was at for 4 1/2 years before I left (solely because I was not getting paid enough) for a job that wound up being terribly toxic. I left that job after six months, and am now at a start-up non-profit (I’ve been here for about seven months). My problem is that I just cannot seem to stay on top of the work. It’s a Special Assistant position, so very similar to my first job as an Executive Assistant, but something just isn’t clicking for me. I feel very overwhelmed by the amount of work I’m being given, am not great at managing my own expectations, and am making constant little errors in my work. I’ve had conversations with our ED (my direct supervisor), who is very honest about what she expects from me and lets me know that she is invested in my growth and thinks that I can do this job. The entire organization is very focused on growth and learning (we devote possibly too much time to gathering together for all-day all-team learning sessions that are genuinely great, but take up a full day of work). I’m starting to wonder if I made a grave error in taking this job, just so eager to leave what was a truly terrible and toxic work environment. Everyone I work with here is smart and great at what they do, which makes me feel even more inadequate. However, a new development today is that, since we’re switching fiscal sponsors, my job has been reclassified to non-exempt. I currently work 8:30am-6:30pm most days anyway (I’m often the first one in but rarely the last to leave), but I’m onlt supposed to be working 40 hours. Unless I suddenly become way better at my job, I won’t be able to work 40 hours a week and I don’t really want to work overtime every day. Is it possible that this just isn’t the right fit for me? I don’t have an insatiable drive to work, I don’t feel very energized at this point because I recognize that I’m doing a bad job. I am learning that I am not thriving in a place with such high standards, but I also know that being here is an amazing opportunity and learning experience. (An additional note to an already-long comment is that I am also seeing a therapist and she hears about my work stress a lot. I’m not taking any medication, but I’m starting to think an anti-anxiety or depressant would be super helpful.)
four lights* January 18, 2019 at 3:45 pm If you haven’t already, it would be good to think about what’s preventing you from staying on top of the work. The solution(s) will depend on what that is. Is there too much work? Are you wasting time? Do you feel you don’t know how to do certain tasks? Is a task taking longer than you think it should? Are you spending too much time on one type of task to the detriment of the others? Is there an organizational issue that’s causing you to be confused about what to do? Are you overwhelmed by the amount of work? One think that I do is I make a list of some things I need to do, and highlight the top three that need to get done that day. Then, once they’re done I can pick the next three. I do this because sometimes I’m overwhelmed by the amount I need to do. Other times, I feel like I’m a little lost, and so I go through all my files/tasks to review them and make a big list of what needs to get done so I make sure I’m not forgetting things.
Not So NewReader* January 19, 2019 at 3:42 pm It’s too hard to tell if you are a bad fit or if the job’s a bad job. So I am going to come in at a different (okay, strange) angle. Do you feel that you are doing better than you did your first week? Look at you today vs you seven months ago, do you see much difference? Some jobs one does not learn all that they are doing and one does not ever catch up on work. This could be the type of job you have where you will learn new things constantly and your work will never be brought up to present time. If this is the case, can you live with that? The only person in your comment having trouble with your work seems to be you. You are saying nice things about your boss and about your cohorts. Just my opinion so grain of salt and all that. It looks like you have been working 50 hours a week for seven months. I suggest you go down to a 40 hour work week. Ask your boss to help you prioritize your efforts. Talk to your therapist about options and support. And for the love of this earth, get some decent rest. Go five more months and see where you are. A rested, supported person with priorities set by the boss might mean you are a whole new you. I am saying this because unless I misunderstood, you like your boss and you like the cohorts. You don’t dislike the work it’s just that there is too much coming at you. This sounds like it could shape up into a decent job for you if you are willing to keep trying. If I am not reading this right, please ignore me. But I do see hope here, it will take some effort but I think this might be salvageable,if you want to salvage it. If you want out, then maybe that is the best answer.
Michelle* January 18, 2019 at 1:31 pm I report to a new director (I’m a manager) as of December and we’re finally getting into a more comfortable working relationship groove. Yesterday in our 1:1, she brought up that she is a little concerned my lone direct report doesn’t have a full workload, and/or isn’t being terribly productive in the office. My direct report is very capable and generally excels at her job responsibilities. One of these responsibilities is frequent travel (she can easily be out 5 days a week during her peak season, which is about 6 months of the year, split into 2 bursts). I appreciated that my director wasn’t saying “I don’t think she works hard enough” but more along the lines of: “I’m feeling like I don’t know what’s on her plate, and when she’s in the office, I’m not seeing a lot of work happening.” One of the things we decided might help would be if my direct report could send out a weekly email of her schedule for the week, so my boss can feel more in the loop (she does block her travel times in calendar right now). I have frequent meeting responsibilities and I require an accommodated desk that is further from my direct report than my director’s desk, so my director does actually have a better physical line of sight to my report’s desk. My approach to managing is to focus on whether deadlines and portfolio responsibilities are being met (they are), but I didn’t want to deny what my own boss is claiming. I used to have my direct report’s role and found it very exhausting and easily burnt myself out – my employee has also discussed managing the rigor of travel, so I know she feels it too. I feel as though the issue is not how much work she is doing, but in articulating it better, which is solvable. However, my direct report had an introductory 1:1 coffee date when new boss started and my report after said to me that director only talked about herself. In one of our 1:1’s, she was direct that she didn’t feel that new director had expressed any interest in understanding what her job is and the only interactions they had were about “chit-chat” and nothing that relates to her professional or personal interests, so she is clearly not feeling any goodwill towards the new director (yet). Any tips for framing this conversation about work and productivity with my direct report, and how I might manage reporting back to my new boss? I want to maintain the good relationship with my report while being direct and clear, but I also want to build a connection with my director and be a good manager. Just feeling a little lost and any advice is very appreciated.
KR* January 18, 2019 at 1:40 pm Could you ask her to send the report to you and you send it to your boss so it’s not clear that the request is coming from your boss? Also you could say your boss wants to know a little more about what she deals with week to week, which might help with your direct report feeling like your boss doesn’t appreciate or value her. Then at that point of you see less productivity than you would like you can address it. Also you say your company has a defined busy season – she may not be productive on her off time because she doesn’t have a whole lot of work to do, which in that case if it’s still a sticky point with your boss you possibly delegate some tasks to her during her off times or see if there’s a way she can prep for her busy times.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:18 am Can’t she take your word for it? Can you manage the director so y’all don’t micromanage your report? If she knows her exact schedule, is she going to drop by more often to try to “see a lot of work happening”? She sounds like a butts-in-seats person. Whatever you do, let it serve your report, which this attitude doesn’t.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 10:51 am Yes to most but to this, no: “Could you ask her to send the report to you and you send it to your boss so it’s not clear that the request is coming from your boss” That is weird and subterfuge-y. Don’t conceal the purpose, that will create more work than necessary and I would be really upset and confused that my boss was ‘hiding’ something like this from me.
Dog in a bag* January 18, 2019 at 1:35 pm Has anyone else gone sober and let work people know? How’d it go? My team is very word-hard-play-hard, and my company in general has a strong drinking culture (every team has a mini fridge with anything from beer to hard A, regular work-sponsored happy hours, our director gives out small handles of liquor as a kudos for work well done, etc.). Additionally, about a year ago we lost the last of our non-drinkers to other jobs, and the remaining members were VERY excited that we no longer had to “cater” to non-drinkers. Now, our team events are centered around wineries/distilleries/brewery tours, and we usually do a round of shots if we go anywhere else. I’m thinking I might just say I don’t drink anymore for medical reasons, since that isn’t something that can be negotiated/peer pressured without them looking really out of step.
Glomarization, Esq.* January 18, 2019 at 1:48 pm While I’m not in recovery, myself, I’ve found that “Sorry, I can’t. Doctor’s orders!” can go a long way toward keeping people from hassling me about something. For me, I’m mostly vegetarian. I’m living in a place where that can be difficult to accommodate, and it gets boring to explain. But if I say, “Oh, no thanks. Looks great but I’m not eating beef right now, doctor’s orders!” then it can help smooth out an awkward interaction. Nobody can argue with a doctor who’s not theirs (and not there).
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 2:06 pm I had a coworker who is a recovering alcoholic. I think she’s something like 10 years sober now. We didn’t have a drinking culture at work but our city/state is always one the “drunkest cities” list, so while at work she was supported, family functions were hard and she had to stop going for a bit. Quite honestly, people who can’t respect someone else’s decision not to drink are jerkwads.
My Name is Blank and I'm an Alcoholic* January 18, 2019 at 2:08 pm Yep, I’m working toward my 7th year of sobriety. My work team knows I don’t drink, but not about my 30-year addiction. We’ve had several alcohol-centered team building events, like wine-tasting, but I was excused. Our holiday parties have evolved into all-night binge-fests so I’m excused. I sometimes feel left out, but unlike your company, we’re not booze-centric (although I served in the military, so I know what you’re going through), and we do non-drinking things as well. If you’re wanting to quit altogether, you need to stress that to your co-workers. If you’re just not wanting to drink so often, it’s going to be more difficult to make the message clear. What helped me is telling my boss, who is great at covering for me, and reminding the team we don’t always have to drink to team-build. My stomach is hurting for you, Dog in a Bag. Yours sounds like my perfect nightmare of a workplace. Please keep us updated.
Misha* January 18, 2019 at 3:49 pm I think “medical reasons” is one of the easiest ways to get around this with minimal questioning and you should never, ever feel like you have to explain or share more than you’re comfortable with. That being said…. you never know what other people are dealing with. I know you said they seemed delighted to lose the non-drinker, but who knows how many people truly felt that, or just felt peer pressured themselves? I think being “out” about your sobriety can be incredibly powerful and encouraging for others. Drinking culture in general really separates people into those who Can Handle It and those Who Can’t (alcoholics), when there is really an incredible amount of room in between and it’s so hard to go sober when no one around you is. This is absolutely NOT encouragement for you to do something you’re not comfortable with, just that I think it’s worth remembering that confidence in your choices can encourage others to be confident in theirs. Best of luck to you!
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 12:46 am I would recommend against being “out” about your sobriety. Work-hard-play-hard drinking environment employers, well I have seen groups like this try to sabotage people who are working to be sober. I vote for “medical reasons” (which this certainly is), and if people ask for more info, saying “my doctor and I have this, the details are boring, tell me about your dreams of making the perfect vodka collins…” Always have a set of ready subjects/questions to pivot to. That said, please consider looking for another job. This environment sounds like a nightmare for you. You currently have a job, you are earning a paycheck, you can take your time and search for a good fit. Good luck and stay strong.
Detective Amy Santiago* January 18, 2019 at 4:22 pm Are you sure you want to stay in that environment? It doesn’t sound like it would be a very supportive one if you’re getting sober. If you need time to find something else, I do think medical reasons is a good cover though.
The New Wanderer* January 19, 2019 at 4:36 pm I think if it’s such a big part of the culture and people have been rude about “non-drinkers” – seriously, how is it a problem to cater to non-drinkers, like water or soda is such a hassle? – I would not tell coworkers about your intent to be sober. They don’t sound like they’d appreciate that it’s not a judgment on their choices. And the “for medical reasons” is a legit explanation, not a dodge. It covers everything from “my doctor’s orders” to “I want to feel healthier” to “I’m concerned about my drinking.” It’s probably your best strategy to get people to consider it the non-issue it is.
J* January 20, 2019 at 3:37 am Yeah, non-drinkers are easy to cater to! (And much, much cheaper.) Although it sounds like the issue is that the coworkers want events where drinking *is* the activity (the brewery tour) rather than a supplement to the activity. So yeah, this doesn’t sound like a supportive environment, and “medical reasons” and “doctor’s orders!” sound like the perfect explanation. Not sure if this office is willing to try new team building outtings or not, but I will say that karaoke is super fun while drunk *or* sober. Maybe they can find more drinking-friendly activities like that?
Frances K R* January 18, 2019 at 1:36 pm I read a lot of your advice on job-hunting, and I got a job offer at a place that I feel that I feel is a better fit. I handed in my two-weeks-notice today. I wanted to thank you and the commentariat so much.
Nines* January 18, 2019 at 1:49 pm Congrats! Such a good feeling to have your value acknowledged too! I feel very similar as well! I definitely credit this site with changing how I perceive office politics stuff and professionalism. And think it made a big difference in how successful I was in my last interview experience (I got the job and my first choice for location/placement). Good luck!
Nines* January 18, 2019 at 1:37 pm I had my last day at OldJob last Friday and am super excited about NewJob I’m starting on Monday. But OldJob is seriously imploding. Primarily because of the BigBoss being a micromanaging snake. I really laid things on the table at my exit interview and was pretty pleased, but have since been told HR is besties with BigBoss. It’s a non-profit treating low income mentally ill clients. I want it so badly to succeed! I keep finding myself wanting to reach back out to the organization (like HR or the CEO) to try to communicate how bad things are going, but I KNOW this won’t change things. I told them how I felt and what I experienced and they will do with that info what they will. I think I just need people to reassure me staying out of this is the way to go. No reaching out to the CEO! For reference: I am about three levels below the CEO. I’ve been with the company about 2 years. But only in my most recent position for 6 months. So it’s not as though I had a relationship with the CEO. I probably spoke with him twice total.
Nines* January 18, 2019 at 1:51 pm Also – I likely would not be telling them things they don’t know. I just can’t wrap my head around why things are being dealt with this way if they know about all these issues. But there is likely a large number of pieces to the puzzle I don’t know about. Urf.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 12:48 am You did the best you could with your exit interview – good for you. But the best thing now is to move on. Good luck with the new job.
Coffee Owlccountant* January 18, 2019 at 1:46 pm Oh good, I’ve been waiting for this! TL;DR: I’m looking for scripts to delicately avoid the “You’re going back THERE?!”/”You came back HERE?!” conversations I’m about to start having. Background: I worked for about five years at OldJob and was frustrated. I was a rock star, regularly working way above my pay grade and definitely above my title, and was consistently praised and given higher- and higher-level projects until I was essentially doing the work of a Senior Teapot Finance Manager for the pay and title of Admin Teapot Cashier, which included having management responsibilities over coworkers’ work without having any kind of authority to correct them. After being asked to write a staffing proposal and job description for a new position that was sorely needed and seeing that proposal be well received with the result of “This is excellent and you’re right – but we’re not going to do it”, I left and started a new job in August. Things fell apart at OldJob without me. Like, they still have not managed to close the books for 2018 yet because there’s three months of Teapot Problems no one was looking at after I left. Meanwhile, at NewJob (much, MUCH larger company, much, MUCH more siloed), I was gradually dying of boredom – while my boss was great and definitely TRYING to pass responsibilities to me, there just was not enough of it. I’d be lucky to have enough to do to fill 10 hours a week. Fast forward to two weeks ago, when the CFO of OldJob called me up and said that they wanted to have a conversation about me coming back to the company, and essentially let me write my own job description and offered me a hefty raise, a much more elevated manager title, reimbursement for expenses required to get my professional certificate, and a flexible schedule. I jumped on it and start in two weeks. I am very keenly aware of the company’s flaws, but I will be in a position to be able to address issues and correct course in a way I was not before. I’m excited to start! My concern is this – I’ve so far been deflecting talk about where exactly I’m going at NewJob following my resignation because it does look sort of mercenary to be leaving after only six months. I’m also concerned that when I start back at OldJob, there will be comments, probably mostly jovial and lighthearted, like “Oh, must be a glutton for punishment!” and “Wow, indecisive much?!” and “I thought you hated it there?”. I really don’t want to engage, but I understand that the optics don’t look great. What do I say to people who are startled to see me back or people at NewJob who are understandably curious about where I’m going next and why I’m leaving so soon?
Doug Judy* January 18, 2019 at 1:59 pm “OldJob made me an offer that I couldn’t turn down.” I don’t think you need to say much more than that.
CupcakeCounter* January 18, 2019 at 4:26 pm I would simply say that the main reasons you left OldJob are now being addressed and you are in a unique position to help guide things forward and are thrilled with the opportunity.
Workerbee* January 18, 2019 at 9:29 pm Sounds like OldJob got its act together. I agree with the other comments. You could also just tell the easily startled that OldJob went through a positive culture change, and tell NewJob people that your time with them made you ready to accept new challenges (that just happen to be at OldJob).
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 12:53 am Not what you asked, but good luck at your new OldJob. Please think hard about how you will set boundaries to prevent what happened the first time. I.e., responsibility without authority, higher level job duties without appropriate levels of pay/benefits, etc. And, be ready to pull the plug at two years if things are going downhill.
LizB* January 18, 2019 at 1:54 pm Anybody else go on an organizing spree after the “how do I keep my desk from looking like a tornado hit it” post? My desk surface is now clutter-free, my drawers have folders that actually make sense to me instead of ones that made sense to my predecessor, I’ve recycled a large novel’s worth of useless paper… not a bad week.
Daisy Avalin* January 18, 2019 at 6:46 pm At my home desk, yeah, although it helped that we moved in November so I hadn’t managed to fill all the crannies up with detritus yet!
Steve* January 18, 2019 at 1:54 pm My work has a flexible time off policy which allows me to take off as much time as I wish. I’m new here and not sure how much time off to take. Any advice?
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 3:36 pm There’s probably an informal ‘rule’ there. So ask around and find out what other’s do. Just don’t be the one with the reputation of never ‘being there’.
four lights* January 18, 2019 at 3:39 pm I would ask HR if they have any guidelines. You could also ask coworkers. I think standard vacation time is 2-3 weeks, so you could start with that in mind.
rubyrose* January 18, 2019 at 4:58 pm And since you are new, don’t take any for at least 4 months, unless there is some really significant event you need to be at.
a-nonnie-mouse* January 18, 2019 at 1:55 pm Last year, after striking out in finding a job in my field after graduation, I ended up getting a part-time job in retail to pay the bills. I took some time off job searching to recharge/adjust to the very physical workload/recover from disappointment, but picked it back up mid-December. I’ve been having a bit more luck this time around (I have interviews lined up, even!) but I’m wondering: how honest should I be about my retail job? Is it okay to admit that I took it because it was all I could find? Or will that sound like “there’s something super wrong with me that’s keeping anyone in our field from being interested” to hiring managers?
Laura H.* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm I think people are aware that sometimes that’s the case. I’d see if there are transferable skills/ ways to ahem sell the experience you gained there. I wouldn’t admit without any prompting. Good luck.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:16 pm I would like that you are working, even if it’s “just” retail. I mean, otherwise, are you sitting at home watching Netflix? That’s not so impressive.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 12:57 am You took a retail job to pay the bills while searching for a job in your new field that is the right fit. You took a small break from job searching to recharge your batteries and devote some time to your family (or something else positive).
Preschool Teacher* January 18, 2019 at 1:55 pm I have been working at a privately owned child care center for the last two years, and in this field for six years. When I was hired I was told that there is a 40% discount for staff children at the center, but this week the owner has decided to cut that benefit by half! I am actively trying to get pregnant with my first child, and this puts me in a terrible position. Is there anything I can do? People who already have children have been grandfathered in at the old rate, and one pregnant coworker just put in her notice over this. I have excellent performance reviews and recently got us the highest state scores that the center has ever seen, so I’m a valuable employee. I would hate to leave this job over this, but I’m underemployed and the only reason I stay in this field is for the discount! For reference, having to pay the new rate would cut each paycheck in half. I’m looking for a new job now, but is there anything else I can do?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm Are you in a position where you could mention it as something that will turn off good job candidates? If you weren’t planning to take advantage of the discount, would you stay in the job?
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 2:21 pm Yeah, do you have the kind of relationship where you can tell your boss “look, you just lowered my salary and that’s a problem for me”?
Preschool Teacher* January 18, 2019 at 2:29 pm My concern is that when my coworker tried to talk to our boss, the director, my boss just blamed it on the out-of-town owner. It will be even worse for new hires, they won’t get a discount at all! I really do love my job and coworkers otherwise, I’m just at a loss with this situation.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 2:37 pm That really sucks :( You posted above that you’re underemployed and only staying for this discount. Well, now this discount is reduced and it would seriously eat into your paycheck. It sounds like you’re not yet pregnant, so that gives you a little bit more time to plan for eventual childcare needs, but you know you’re going to have them. Is this the situation you want to be in? Can you make it work? If not, sorry, this probably isn’t going to be the long-term solution for your family :( Sometimes you can love a job and love your coworkers but the compensation just isn’t enough. At the end of the day, you have to be able to put food on the table and provide child-care for your kid.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:34 am Only staying for the discount doesn’t bode well. Get a job that benefits you highly enough, in multiple ways, that losing one won’t devastate you, especially financially.
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 2:53 pm If I understand, you now get a 20% discount, correct? Is this a full-time job? If the new rate cut your paycheck in half, none of this makes sense. Running the numbers in a made-up scenario, if childcare is $300/wk, your expected rate at a 40% discount was $180, and your new 20%-discounted rate is $240. There’s only a $60 difference between the two rates. You aren’t making $120/week, right? I understand you could be making a low rate in this type of job, but the 20% difference in discounts shouldn’t cut your paycheck in half. I definitely understand your disappointment. I had a carefully researched daycare provider with my second son. She folded up her business when my son was about 9 months old. There were not a lot of daycares near me, esp. in the price range I could afford. I got him a baby spot in my older son’s former daycare, but he had to move to walker room by his first birthday because someone had already reserved that spot 3 months out. Well, even though my older son could walk when he was 9 months old, my second one didn’t start walking until after his first birthday and we had to find another daycare. The good part of this story is that the sister of the pastor of the church the daycare was in was opening a home daycare. (She also turned out to be the mom of someone I knew in high school). I moved my son there, and she was the most wonderful daycare provider I ever had. You might have to change plans or careers, but it might not be a bad thing. This could be the best thing to happen. (Nevermind that this is a theoretical baby. . .my sis based her career choices off a theoretical baby and is 32 with endo and no baby yet. . .it’s kind of heartbreaking.)
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 7:37 pm I think she probably meant that once she has to start paying for childcare, the new higher rate will equal half of her current paycheck. So, if childcare is $300, and is now $240, her paycheck is currently $480, which is entirely possible for a preschool teacher, a profession that is notoriously underpaid. So when you are making $480 a week, an expected $180 per week expense is a lot less than a $240 a week expense.
Happy Sharpie* January 18, 2019 at 4:59 pm Maybe see if you can be grandfathered in because you’re pregnant?
Not So NewReader* January 20, 2019 at 6:27 pm This is the problem with special benefits, they can be pulled at any time. I have seen this type of thing happen, people pick a place because of Benefit and then the Benefit is suddenly gone. I think that moving to a more solid plan that can not be pulled away from you is your best bet.
ElmyraDuff* January 18, 2019 at 1:56 pm My department is moving from cubicles to an open office in a month and I’m going to lose my mind. I could use a pep talk or advice from anyone else who was in this situation. I’m an introvert AND part of the creative team, so, like…I need my space.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:41 am Maybe you need whiteboards all around you to plan your projects.
e* January 22, 2019 at 3:02 pm This is a very late comment, but in hopes that it will help: I was in the same position. What has helped the small group of “focusers” at our company was finding an area that everyone could sit in together so it would be mostly quiet. We have a hot-desking situation so we are the ones who are in the same spots every day. Most of us wear headphones. I wear earbuds and listen to music or rain noise. There is also a loud AC and noise dampener system that does a little (not a lot) to lessen noise. We have small isolated rooms primarily intended for other purposes that we can occasionally use if the office is extraordinarily loud or if we are extraordinarily short-tempered. I mean, we are surviving. I would not choose to be in this environment. And as someone who needs to concentrate and gets pretty distracted, it’s hard to get things done, but they do get done. But it puts additional stress on us that I can feel when I’m able to work in my own room for a day. The only real benefit when my company made this move was that we moved to a brand new office building with much better amenities. We also have all sit/stand desks. I have noticed that I’m more social than I was when I was in a cubicle, but I also now dislike people that were fine when I wasn’t exposed to all their habits all day long.
Ryan* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm I received a verbal offer for a job this Tuesday (yay!), but after discussing things with the recruiter, there were a lot of red flags for me. 1) They weren’t willing to budge on salary at all 2) They weren’t willing to budge on vacation days (this company starts you with 8 days/year for 5 years) 3) They also weren’t willing to budge on hours. I like 9-6 because it helps me take care of family things so that’s really important to me. I received an offer letter Thursday, and told them I wanted to take some time to decide now that I had all the facts in front of me. Amusingly, right after receiving that, I heard from another recruiter for a much more lucrative position, but it’s as a consulting role so no real vacation benefits. The nice thing is is that it’s a really flexible job, so that has my interests and is why I’m even hesitating. I guess I just need someone to let me know if I’m being an ass by taking time to decide after receiving a verbal offer!
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:20 pm You’re supposed to take time! But don’t take time over this any longer because it sounds like the offer kinda sucks.
T. Boone Pickens* January 18, 2019 at 6:12 pm As long as you set a firm deadline (I think a week is a good rule of thumb if you’re working) and don’t string the CrappyJobOfferCompany along, you can walk away with a clear conscience.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:53 am I hope you’ll say no. Eight days for five years is really stingy, even if it’s a 4-day work week.
roisin54* January 18, 2019 at 1:57 pm I apologize if this is a dumb question, but I’m honestly curious. What do people in an office/corporate work environment actually do? Aside from a three-year stint as an assistant to the head of the English department when I was in college, I’ve only ever worked in libraries. An office work culture is thus a completely foreign concept to me and I’m rather curious about it.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:24 pm Haha. The city where I work lots of people work at “Big Company A” or “Big Company B.” If you ask where do you work, they say only, “I work at Big Company A.” Not, “I am a such and such at Company.” I always wondered if that’s all they say because, what the HELL do they all do all day? Note: I am also someone with a more unusual job (writing/editing).
JennyFair* January 18, 2019 at 2:28 pm I answer so. many. emails. And I make so. many. papers. And then I move those papers around. A lot. Less cynical and exhausted explanation: Schedule things, bill clients, process reports, ensure everyone is complying with training requirements, ensure the office is complying with various things, answer questions from both internal and external people, random things like escorting a property inspector around, purchase and receive things and doing inventory, make sure everyone is paid, etc. But I do all that in between answering the emails and making and moving the papers.
Rhymes with Mitochondria* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm Depends on their job title. They could be creating marketing plans for clients. They could be creating graphic design products like fliers, business cards, posters, brochures, etc for internal or external clients. They could be creating invoices and making sure that those invoices get paid. They could be accounting. They could be doing data analysis, trading stock, sales, supporting someone as an EA, processing loan applications, calculating insurance rates, or any number of other things. Corporate jobs are not a monolith and have a huge amount of variety!
Person from the Resume* January 18, 2019 at 2:56 pm The company or organization delivers something (tangible or intangible). They support making that thing. Since they work in an office they go to meeting, talk, research, write reports, write emails, make spreadsheets or documents or decisions, pay people or other companies or bill people or other companies.
BlueWolf* January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm It definitely depends on the position. I am in legal billing, so my work is Accounting-adjacent. I work with attorneys and other staff to create invoices and send them to clients, but also respond to billing-related questions (mostly email).
Alianora* January 18, 2019 at 5:10 pm People in my various departments at a large university have had the following jobs: instructor/faculty, director (makes big-picture decisions about where the department is going), program manager (deals with specifics of a particular program. Usually involves a lot of instructor wrangling and organizing parties, lectures, other events), administrative assistant (financial transactions, scheduling, event planning, supplies ordering), building manager, accountant, student services specialist (advises students and plans student events), lawyer, marketing (designs presentations, website, brochures), IT, receptionist, admissions officer, ergonomics advisor, HR, executive assistant (assists directors with scheduling and high-level administrative decisions), and probably some others that I’m forgetting. I’m sure at other types of organizations outside academia there are also specialized roles that wouldn’t occur to me to think of. So there’s a wide variety of tasks and probably no universal office experience, aside from vague concepts like “sit at desk” and “answer emails.”
julian* January 18, 2019 at 9:06 pm I like that you asked this. I also have a hard time envisioning what people are actually doing all day at desks/cubicles. Every job I’ve been in has had a very clear function… including working in libraries, too!
The New Wanderer* January 19, 2019 at 4:27 pm I was just joking with my senior colleague that my job seems to be “90% thinking about Specific Topic and 10% I’m not sure yet.” What a typical day looks like from the outside: read a few documents or articles to keep up with current research, attend 1 – 3 meetings, usually about an hour long, either to discuss specific work or listen to someone’s report-out, and write up some notes (usually in Powerpoint format). Sometimes there are impromptu work conversations to develop an idea. Often there is staring into space. I don’t interact with many people face to face in my office, so days without meetings tend to really drag on. My husband has a completely different type of work (software engineering) and his day looks like 90% active coding and 10% meetings.
PublishingPerson* January 19, 2019 at 5:03 pm I work in publishing. I think my job really boils down to receiving content in a certain way, and then, through various different ways, I move that content around to make it accessible in lots of different ways (printed on paper, downloadable on a website, displayable on a website, displayable in an ebook, machine readable, etc.). Basically, I receive content, and spend my time giving people instructions on exactly what we want done with it, checking to make sure they did it right, and sometimes doing things to it myself. I also enter a lot of information into databases, export that information FROM databases, etc. I also answer questions about what is and isn’t possible, or make decisions on how to handle non-traditional kinds of situations. I send a lot of emails, either instructing people to do something, telling them they did it wrong, or telling them they are late. People send me emails saying things like “is this technically possible?” or “when is X going to be ready?” or “I found a mistake in something! Is it too late to fix?” I also add information or reformat information so that stuff is machine readable. I also do a lot of website updating.
roisin54* January 19, 2019 at 6:40 pm Thanks for the responses! It makes sense that there’s a wide variety of things people actually do in offices. Lord knows there are many different types of jobs in libraries as well.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:03 am The key to being new to an office environment is to observe what others do. Pick a few people who are admired for their work/professionalism and emulate them.
CM* January 20, 2019 at 1:24 am I’ve worked in a few different offices. Basically, an office exists to deliver a service or product to somebody in exchange for money. In for-profit companies, the product or service is usually sold to consumers or to other businesses. In non-profit organizations, the product or service is often delivered at the behest of a funder (like the government) or charitable donors. So, the office is staffed by people who perform the different roles needed to create and deliver the product or service (marketers, product designers, program coordinators, etc), people who support the first group of people by performing business tasks that help the office function (admin staff, IT, HR, finance, etc) and managers and/or directors who make strategic decisions about what course of action the office workers will pursue, and have oversight on personnel issues. The specific groups of people hired to work on delivering the product or service can vary a lot depending on what the product or service is (maybe you need data analysts, maybe not) but the roles they fill tend to be similar across their fields/industries (a graphic designer does graphic design no matter what kind of service or product they’re hired to work on; a software engineer builds software, etc). The idea is that people are picked out of different fields and assembled into a team based on the needs of the product or service the office is designed to deliver, so they all have expertise in some specific area, and they’re applying that expertise to whatever the business problem in front of them is — and their work days look totally different depending what their field of expertise happens to be and how it applies to the service or product they’re working on. It also gets complicated because there isn’t, like, a master chart that shows how offices have to be organized. Managers and directors are often making up their own structure as they go, and people end up getting different kinds of duties assigned to them, and different, mismatched job titles, depending on the idiosyncratic org chart and job descriptions developed at each individual company. Regardless of who’s there or what they’re trying to do, the actual work that gets done is split between the core function each employee was hired to do (accounting, team management, design, research, etc) and the shared responsibility of getting organized to work together. A lot of people would argue that office workers actually spend the vast MAJORITY of their time figuring out how to work together, which sometimes takes the form of formal Project Management processes and sometimes informal discussions and documentation. So, long story short, if your office exists to make a teapot, you’ve got managers and directors whose job it is to make decisions about how the teapots will be made, experts on business (finance, IT, admin, HR, etc) whose job it is to provide the infrastructure to allow a teapot-making business to exist, and experts on several different aspects of teapot engineering, marketing, design, etc. All of them have to organize themselves to figure out how TF they’re going to make a teapot, and then they have to make the teapot.
Yikes!* January 18, 2019 at 2:02 pm Due to a re-org I am reporting to a VP who got her position because she was in the “in crowd” for our former (fired) Senior VP of the department. My VP is a gossip and bad mouths everyone- from my colleagues, my direct reports, her boss, our CEO, everyone, to me when we speak. She bad mouths them as an excuse as to why things aren’t moving forward, why there is no plan or strategy or goals, why something didn’t get approved, she is doing it to cover up the fact that she is not qualified to be in this position. I also know she complains and bad mouths me to them- she doesn’t realize how close we all are and that they tell me what she says. Due to this re-org going to HR or to my VP’s boss is out of the question- it is too complicated to even explain, but trust me, it isn’t an option. I can’t really call her out on it, because if you get on her bad side she will make your life hell. I defend my direct reports and often give her a back story to an issue that she has no idea about, yet feels like she can complain about them. For other people I say things “Oh! That does sound odd/frustrating, I wonder what the motivation or directive was behind that.” Trying to get her to stop. UGGG.. not sure if anyone has advice, maybe I just needed to vent!
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:07 am Can you cut her off with a “that’s interesting, how would you like me to implement stage A of project Z? I plan to do X. What do you think?…” Yee gads. And update your resume and job search while you are earning a paycheck.
Not So NewReader* January 20, 2019 at 6:41 pm So this is a person who does not like anyone. You could just bide your time and watch her unravel herself. The hope I see in your story here is that she is bad mouthing her own boss. This helps get people out the door quicker than almost anything else. As far as your life made into a living hell, I think you are probably already there. Decide how much you are willing to put up with and decide what you CAN do. It’s really easy to make a list of what we can’t do. The Can Do list is a bit harder. If you have trusted cohorts maybe you can all support each other. We used to do a “weather report”, as in “storm clouds gathering” or “tornado on the way”. Other times we would work off each other. One person would go in and tell the boss bad news and make a suggestion. Of course the suggestion was bad and the bad news was that person’s fault. Then the second person would go in and say the same thing, the second person was a hero and saved the day. We took turns being first person loser or second person hero. Once you see the patterns of behaviors you can coordinate and do plans like these.
NoMoreDrive* January 18, 2019 at 2:03 pm Any advise for someone dealing with a supervisor who takes the “come with me with solutions, not problems” mentality to the extreme? She constantly wants me to “drive” issues that are above my area of expertise and quiet honestly, my pay grade. I do the best I can, but when major things come up, I don’t feel like I can approach her without coming off inept or lazy. Thanks
LaDeeDa* January 18, 2019 at 2:11 pm Can you identify people who CAN come up with a solution? “I have identified this issue, but I don’t I am not sure how to move forward. This is Jane’s area, can we bring her in?” Or “this is department’s area… can we involve them?” If those aren’t an option can you say … “this issue is outside my area, can you help me figure out what a viable solution is?”
INeedANap* January 18, 2019 at 2:13 pm What kind of relationship do you have with her? I was in a similar situation, but with a boss who also had the mentality that he appreciated a no-bullshit attitude. So I was able to just bluntly say: “That solution is above my pay grade. You pay me to catch the problem. You pay [John Doe] to solve it.” (Or, alternatively, “They pay YOU to solve it.” This will not work for all bosses, obviously!
NoMoreDrive* January 18, 2019 at 4:28 pm Haha I love the bluntness! If the situation really warrants it, I might give it a shot. Thanks!
RubyRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:06 pm Would love to get thoughts/advice on a recurring issue I’m having with a direct report. We work at a writing heavy company, producing detailed, long reports for clients. The problem is my report’s use (or lack thereof) of proper punctuation. He sent me something today and the first sentence didn’t even have a period at the end. It’s my responsibility to review his work, but it’s supposed to be for like factual errors, missing details, narrative mistakes, etc. We’ve had repeated discussions about it, I’ve tried picking my battles over things like comma use, but there glaring issues are still happening. Are there other techniques I should use? Anyone run into this sort of thing?
MuseumChick* January 18, 2019 at 2:14 pm It sounds like its time for a more serious conversation. Like a closed-door-we’ve-talk-about-this-before-and-it-keeps-happening talk. Is there a chance this could effect his employment with you? If so, you should tell him that. I would also send things back to him. “Fergus, this isn’t ready for me to review. Correct the punctuation and then return it to me. Going forward do not submit anything to me until all the punctuation, grammar, etc has been corrected.”
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 1:14 am Is there a skills assessment he can take, so you can say he needs to score x to be successful and does he think he can get there in y time? Does he not have grammar check or not know how to use it?
Less Bread More Taxes* January 18, 2019 at 2:17 pm What have your discussions been like? Does he understand the seriousness of this? Is it actually that serious in that it could negatively affect him?
Frankie Bergstein* January 18, 2019 at 2:18 pm Is there an opportunity for training or classroom-based work for your direct report to learn this skill?
CM* January 20, 2019 at 12:51 am Build a time machine and have him submit a writing sample before he got hired for a writing job? In all seriousness, I’m not sure there’s a lot you can do to change it if he won’t even put a period at the end of a sentence — that’s a whole different ballgame from “doesn’t know how to use a semicolon” or something. I was going to ask if there actually is a copy editor on staff (there should be; even if you’re not responsible for that, somebody ought to be, if these are reports that are leaving the building and going to your clients). But I don’t think it would be fair to expect a copy editor to spend all day inserting periods and commas into things. At this point, I think it’s a conversation like, “Your writing skills are way below where we need them to be and, if it doesn’t improve soon, we’ll have to find someone else to do this job.” You could try sending him to a business writing class or something, but they’re not going to be saying stuff like “put a period at the end of your sentence.”
JG Wave* January 18, 2019 at 2:12 pm How long did it take y’all to get hired, from the day you sent in the application to the day you got the offer? I know this is going to vary HUGELY by industry and by specific company, but I’m curious to see if there is any sort of “average.” I moved to a new city after grad school and haven’t had much luck; my lease is running out at the end of March and if I don’t have a job offer I think I’m going to have to move back home with my parents. It’s an interstate move and it’s going to be a huge pain if I have to do it. Obviously I’m trying to prepare for all possibilities, but I’m wondering if I should keep applying with as much zeal as I have been, or if I should refocus the bulk of my energy to preparing for a move because the odds of getting hired in 6-8 weeks (so I can give my roommate enough notice) are closer to nil.
Less Bread More Taxes* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm What industry are you in? I’ve had a wide range, but most commonly it’s been around a week or two. For my most recent position, I sent in an application, did two interviews that week, and was offered the position later after my second interview. It was incredibly short. However, during that job search, I sent in an application October 2017, had my interviews in April and wasn’t offered a job until June.
JG Wave* January 18, 2019 at 2:30 pm Museums/archives/libraries. Some independent, some attached to colleges/universities. Funnily enough, just this morning I got the official rejection from a university job I applied to in MAY, but I don’t think that’s a typical timeline.
MuseumChick* January 18, 2019 at 4:15 pm Typically, the GLAM field is notoriously slow at hiring. There are exceptions of course. But, the rejection letter from May doesn’t surprise me at all. If you haven’t already join some professional facebook pages (National Emerging Museum Professional Network for example). You will see a lot of posts about “Well, just got a rejection letter from the place I applied to a year ago.”
Minerva McGonagall* January 18, 2019 at 2:23 pm Higher ed-about two months. Sent the application beginning of June, invite to phone interview beginning of July, hours after the phone interview got the on-campus invite, interviewed on-campus end of July, offered a week later, accepted first week of August. I gave notice right after accepting and started right away.
awaiting the snow* January 18, 2019 at 2:24 pm How long did it take y’all to get hired, from the day you sent in the application to the day you got the offer? My current position, about 3 weeks, and that was amazingly fast (and internal, so we were familiar with each other).
ANon.* January 18, 2019 at 2:52 pm I work at a university. I applied on the 11th, got an email the next day requesting an interview, interviewed on the 18th, and was offered the job on the 24th. Have hope!
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 6:55 pm My last job, I sent in the application around January 10th, interviewed on February 13 and 15, started on March 5, and then found out on April 15th or so that I had not been hired and would have to redo all of the hire paperwork. That job…did not last. As for my previous employers, one place we could get people from interview to first day in about 2-3 weeks, and the other took 4-6 weeks because everyone had to go to a group orientation before they started.
Face Cat vs Hand Dog* January 18, 2019 at 2:13 pm If you want to start using a different name professionally, can you just switch to it on your job apps? Or can that screw you if people try to look around for you in your network or online and can’t find your name? I’m a woman who’s always used my legal name at work but goes by a typically male (but sometimes female) name socially. I also use a different last name socially (I’m from a culture where you have the last names of both sides of your family) and the only reason the other one stuck professionally is because people repeatedly assumed that one specifically was correct and it just sorta stayed that way as people repeated it over time. And after a decade, I’m kinda tired of the whole thing and would rather switch to be the same name everywhere. I’m looking for a new job anyway so this seems like as good a time as any, and I have always wanted to see if my job applications get different responses when I have a more male sounding name on them. I want to just apply as Tyler Knight (for ex) with no clarification that my history is as Theresa Smith Knight and just… See if the likely assumption that I’m a guy gets me more callbacks. I’ve always been curious if that would happen. Mostly I want to switch the name for practical reasons, but I would really like implement it as a tiny experiment too. But I’m afraid this will look like I’m doing something shady and trying to hide my history when I inevitably have to give my legal name for reference checking and the like. So I feel like I’d need to clarify earlier, but thennnn I’m also nervous that this will set off some people’s very specific Issues and they’ll go ew, we don’t want to hire one of those snowflake types who has weird ideas about gender. I’m in an industry that is pretty heavy on that kind of attitude and is hard enough to break into with my OTHER demographic realities, so I don’t really wanna add to the list of reasons for people to be dismissive of me. I dunno. Am I over thinking this? Can I just swap the name, explain it if it comes up, and not worry about it?
JG Wave* January 18, 2019 at 2:40 pm I think Alison’s addressed something similar before–that you can just mention “by the way, the people at [Former Workplace] knew me by [Other Name].” As for raising flags, I think if you address it in a particular way, you can hopefully avoid that? I mean, some people might be jerks no matter what, but if you readily offer an easy explanation, others would probably accept it at face value. Maybe something like “Previous jobs know me as Theresa Smith Knight, but my friends and family have always called me Tyler Knight–it’s been causing confusion for years so I thought I’d finally settle on one name!” The fact that you’re also picking one of two surnames might actually work in your favor because it de-emphasizes the ~scary gender~ aspect of it.
CupcakeCounter* January 18, 2019 at 4:41 pm My BIL has this issue as well. He has always gone by his initials (TK) and prefers that but when he graduated and applied for jobs he put his legal name on his materials and then never corrected anyone. It gets a little confusing for when we are talking about TK and his coworker friends keep talking about this dude Tyson. When he changed jobs he put on his resume “Tyson Counter – preferred name TK”. My workplace actually asked if the name on my resume was my preferred name or if there was something else I go by. I go by a pretty standard nickname for my name but still liked that they made the effort. I would use your preferred name and then when listing your work experience simply footnote “know as Theresa”. Lots of people use names that aren’t their legal first name so it won’t be all that unusual.
Former Expat* January 18, 2019 at 5:06 pm I think that you should totally do that experiment and report back on the results! I remember once I read about a man named Kim who worked in a male-dominated industry (I think in Australia) who was looking for work and didn’t get many bites on his resume until he started writing his name as Mr Kim Smith. Google it, I think you’ll find it. With the last names thing… I know so many people with two last names (mostly Hispanic part of the US) and lots of women who do some version of two lasts without the hyphen. IME, it is pretty common to have multiple names so hopefully that plays out in your favor! Good luck!
Puffin* January 18, 2019 at 2:15 pm Hello! Long time reader, first time poster. And I’m so glad it’s Friday so I can ask this question!! Background- I work in a small department (just me in my boss, Anna) at a site owned by a big company. We are quite different but we work well together, in part because we are different. She’s the best boss I’ve ever had and there’s a lot of trust between us. I like my actual duties a lot and in general really like my job.. A key part of department’s function is to advise the groups at our site that we work with on particular matters (what exactly is irrelevant for the purposes of this post) and we work with one, much wider group in particular in very close collaboration. But the amount of work is too much for two and we have an open position We have some good working relationships with our colleagues from the wider group. Anna told me in strictest confidence a couple of weeks ago that one of them – Fergus- applied for the role and she asked me how I would feel about working with. He’s clever, gets things quickly and would be an asset. To top it off, he’s a really nice guy. I’m pleased that Anna thinks enough of me to ask my opinion although I am not part of the hiring or decision process. I am deliberately not asking Anna any further questions about it although I know interviews have started already, and Fergus is not the only candidate. On my way home tonight (we are not in the US so the working week is already over) another colleague (Bob, who is one of Fergus’s current team mates and the two of them are as thick as thieves) called me to ask about the open position because he is very unhappy in his current role and needs to get out. I know this because Bob and I have become quite good friends and we see each other socially. This means I also know quite a few of Bob’s bad qualities and that I wouldn’t want to work with him more than I do at the moment. Anna has also expressed to me her reservations about Bob in relation to other topics and I can’t imagine her hiring him. So when Bob called me tonight, his first question was ‘Would you (meaning me, Puffin) working in your team with you and Anna?’ Honestly? No I don’t want to work with Bob. So I did the only thing I could and protected my friend and told a lie to him. I feel bad about that but he really put me on the spot. He asked me about some watch outs for applying and I gave him the best answer I could which was that he should look and see if the job is still posted and get his resume and covering letter together over the weekend and apply as soon as possible. He’s just messaged me to say the job isn’t posted any more and could I give him Anna’s phone number. I’ve said that he should take it up first thing on Monday morning when Anna is back in the office. I feel obliged to tell Anna about this conversation on Monday. Do you think I should?
ANon.* January 18, 2019 at 2:37 pm I think you can say to Anna, “Bob asked me about applying to the job and I told him that he should speak with you since the position is no longer posted. I’ll be honest, I have some reservations about working with Bob, but I wanted to give you a heads up in case you were interested in moving forward with Bob’s candidacy.”
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:33 am good for you in deflecting his request for Anna’s personal phone number.
Puffin* January 22, 2019 at 3:48 pm Thank you for the feedback, much appreciated. Update time! Due to circumstances, Bob beat me to Anna in the office on Monday morning. Anna has told him the job will be reposted and Bob reported to me that Anna seemed fine with it. I’ve actually decided to kep schtum for now, and if Anna asks me what I think about working with Bob then I will give her my opinion.
Nessun* January 18, 2019 at 2:18 pm I’m on a sub-committee charged with planning mindfulness within the office. We’ve brainstormed ideas and presented to the full committee, but I’m curious what other offices do/what employees at large would like to see. For example, we have a space available for meditation, but it’s empty – what sort of things would you want to find in there (apart from the obvious mats/cushions)? Any favourite books that should be part of our office lending library? Any short games that could be placed in the café/cafeteria area that would support mindfulness/calming/relaxation (like books of Sudoku, colouring books, simple geometric puzzles)? I’d love to hear other people’s suggestions, or hear about what employers do that you appreciate. We have a budget, and some ideas, but this is new to all of us.
Indie* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm We had a great meditation/yoga space that had really relaxing artwork (nature landscapes and abstract statues) as well as the ability to choose music for the room. Dimmer lamps are good too. I think the most important thing is making sure outside sound is muffled/reduced and that it is a comfortable temperature.
Alianora* January 18, 2019 at 7:30 pm Plants would be really great for a meditation space, if you have someone who can take care of them!
JaneB* January 19, 2019 at 9:34 am Also chairs (or simple cubes if that’s more in keeping) fit people who can’t easily sit on the floor or don’t want to in their work clothes. Plants, definitely. A cooler temperature and some cosy blankets fir the chilly people would be my preference…
Nessun* February 13, 2019 at 3:35 pm Thank you for all the suggestions! I can’t regulate the temperature in the room we’ve got, so throw rugs/blankets are a great idea. Unfortunately, plants aren’t allowed in the office (building mgmt issue – they’re SO odd), but maybe I can think outside the box… And thank you for reminding me not everyone can sit on a cushion, so a nice comfy chair is a requirement!
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:40 am I appreciate an employer that has decent hours and pays well enough that I can pursue this and my other interests OUTSIDE of work. This is not meant as snark. And by the way, the people at my work site (who are taking the time to do stuff like this at work) are pushing the work that they are shirking off onto me. I would be a lot more calm, centered, and mindful at work if these people would do their own f**ing jobs.
Nessun* February 13, 2019 at 3:38 pm Fair point! My company promotes these types of activities for those who are interested, but there is a core belief that you will do your own work and use your flexible schedule to allow for mindful moments as/when needed. If people pushed off work to others to do this…yeah, that would be rude and unacceptable. My industry is high stress/long hours, so the spaces are meant to give people a chance to recharge, but not at the expense of coworkers. Best of luck getting your coworkers to understand that their mental health doesn’t come at the cost of your own!!
Loux in Canada* January 18, 2019 at 2:18 pm Ugh, trying to get accommodations right now at work is turning out to be a pain. So at my office job, we have two shifts: a day shift and an afternoon shift in my department. So, we desk share. I’m on the day shift and I have a person on the afternoon shift who sits at my desk. Anyways, I get migraines related to the lighting in here and the computer screens. (It’s really, really bright.) I turn the brightness down on the computer screen and use the blue light filter on Windows, but recently someone told me to try the anti-glare coverings, aka privacy screens. So my supervisor helped me put them on my screen, with the attached sticky tape. This was on Monday. Throughout the week I noticed they weren’t sticking on well so I asked my sup to find out if the afternoon person was removing them. Turns out she is, because she finds it hard to work with them on. (Which I am frustrated about because she didn’t tell anyone!!!) So some team leaders got the idea to put Velcro on top of the monitor and then put the covering over the top of the screen, but since it’s not pressed right to the screen that doesn’t work. The supply people don’t have any kind of brackets they can use to temporarily affix it so it can be easily removed, and apparently can’t order anything. I had the union rep talk to my supervisor, who is willing to work with me, but another sup started talking to me about it and was like oh, I hope we can accommodate you, we were hoping we could do it with the dollar store materials (Velcro), blah blah… Like lady, it’s the law to accommodate people, up to the point of “undue hardship”, and I really don’t think this should be an issue. Like, if anything, find someone on afternoon shift who wants to use the anti-glare screens and swap them with my current desk-sharing partner. ARRRGH. So frustrating. Obviously there’s a lot more to this, but that’s the gist. Guhhh. /rant
Loux in Canada* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm I should add, the issue with the Velcro was that it was causing blur on the screen and causing me a headache. And someone gave me anti glare glasses, which look kind of silly but I am trying them (they’re basically sunglasses).
Amber Rose* January 18, 2019 at 3:05 pm I have anti-glare glasses. Just cheap ones, but they do seem to help with the strain. Gunnar has some more fashionable ones. Can’t do anything about the silly orange lens color though. But they block out overhead light as well, which is an advantage.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:46 am The simplest solution is to switch the afternoon person with someone who works well with the changes.
StellaBella* January 18, 2019 at 3:49 pm Look up Flux, an app tool – when you log in it is on for you I think….dims the bright blue light from computers.
Kathlynn* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm what about putting the velcro on the back of the monitor so it gets tight against the screen Or tape it to the top of the screen, so it can be flipped over? But yeah, they are doing the bare minimum, rather then trying to actually help. I’m in a similar boat. Sympathy all the way.
The New Wanderer* January 18, 2019 at 6:11 pm The supply people aren’t doing their jobs. There are brackets that are specifically to use to hold glare/privacy screens in place and remove them easily. Skinny clear plastic brackets that adhere to the bezel of the monitor, not the removable screen itself. They came as a set with our privacy screens. I also did a quick Google search to see if I could find a good image and there are also glare screens that you can hang over the front of a monitor, held on by brackets at the top. So I would absolutely push back on that.
Kathlynn* January 18, 2019 at 2:18 pm I need dental surgery, I’m not sure yet when it’ll be (as it’s going to be in a hospital rather then dentist office. I really need to phone them). But my current manager is on mat. leave for a year, and we are getting a temporary replacement. Because of how extensive the surgery is, I’m taking a week off. I’d already filled my current manager in, but I’m not sure how to direct this to a new manager. Especially since we are currently short staffed, and possibly going to be even more short staffed in the near future (depending on how he gets along with the 2 assistant managers, one might walk (hurray) and they other might transfer to another store temporarily (booh)).
Less Bread More Taxes* January 18, 2019 at 2:24 pm I would let them know ASAP that it is happening. Don’t ask for permission if it’s something you really need. If the hospital has flexibility, you could ask your manager when the best time would be for it, but I wouldn’t worry too much about doing this. Your conversation should just be about whether you’re taking sick days or PTO and how to handle your workflow before, during, and after. I had a similar situation when I was an intern. I knew I was getting dental surgery but didn’t have a date until the week beforehand. It’s a totally different situation as they didn’t need me there, but I told them a coupe of months in advance so they knew it was coming.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:51 am I think the best way to ‘ask your manager when the best time would be’ is to say, “Boss, I need surgery and will need to be out for a week afterwards. I can do this starting date X, date Y, or date Z. Does any date work better for you?” If they want time to think about it, say “I am leaning towards date Y. If I don’t hear differently from you by W, I will go with that date.” Back it up with a reminder email. You don’t want your boss pushing back your surgery by never deciding. And make sure boss knows you already discussed with with new-baby-boss. Don’t postpone your surgery because they did not plan properly for maternity absences, etc.
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 5:44 pm In situations where someone is going to be gone for a medical procedure, I want to know the dates ASAP. NOT THE DETAILS, not my business. But I want to know when. I always tell people that you don’t ask us about medical leave, you tell us, and the only questions I will ask is the dates. And these days, I also ask if they need any help or links to our FML process.
Cat Meow* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm I am new to the workforce (a few years in), I work in research if that matters, and I have been told by a few coworkers that I am naive, guillable, too trusting, etc. I have a very young and innocent face and honestly this is just who I am. I always think the best in people and I’m always shocked when someone turns out to not be a nice person. I fear that this trait of mine could hold me back professionally. Any advice about how to come across less naive??
irene adler* January 18, 2019 at 3:33 pm Trust but verify. Always. Don’t buy what someone tells you simply because they tell a good story. It’s an easy thing to verify details, facts, check with witnesses, etc. for yourself. Just need to be willing to do it.
Cat Meow* January 18, 2019 at 5:35 pm Great advice Irene, thank you! I get soo drawn into stories sometimes and believe every word.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:53 am Instead of thinking the best of them before you get to know them, can you assign people you don’t know well to a moderately neutral reputation in your mind?
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 1:58 am I think you will naturally do this as you gain more life experience. Remind yourself that it is okay to give people the benefit of the doubt, but not to overestimate their beneficence. For example, it is okay to trust someone you just met with little things, but don’t agree to hand them $10,000 until you know them really well!
Queenie* January 18, 2019 at 2:19 pm Hi Guys! About 6 months ago I started a new job after leaving uber toxic job that I had been at for 6 years. You all actually helped me realize just how toxic and truly awful it was so thank you! And it helped me land this job! But I am not happy at the new job. My coworkers are nice enough, but the company has gone through MAJOR change right before I was hired, long time staff let go, huge upheaval, and the moral is beyond low. We’re only a small staff but everyone is unhappy, job descriptions changing left and right, staff working overtime and then barely working part time hours its mad. My issue is my whole job description has changed since I was hired, and it’s made it beyond frustrating. Originally I was hired as the coordinator of the teapot customer service and sales department, given part time hours with months of promised full time hours starting the new year. The new year comes along, full time hours promise rescinded, and I am working more as a teapot customer service person and not the actual coordinator of the department! I took the job specifically for the management promotion, the expectation was I was to be the coordinator of the whole department, occasionally help out/check up on the front line by working with them. Not pull multiple back to back shifts working retail. It has been a rather chaotic six months, with truly mind boggling procedures and policies, and one of my four direct reports calling in sick every other day for 4 months straight (oh the stories I could tell…). My actual management power is nil, every change/procedure/plan I attempt to implement must be vetted by both of my higher ups, which my direct reports know and it’s severely affected their view of me as their manager. But I am honestly not quite sure what to do, should I stay for another 6 months, miserable and financially a little strapped so that I don’t have the dreaded under 1 year on my resume? Or should I start looking for something else? Having recently finished school for a completely different field opportunity I want to make a change, but am worried about how it will look (think changing from retail to marketing).
Queenie* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm I don’t want it to look bad on my resume that I left a job before a year was up, my track record for jobs has been extremely good (3-6 years at jobs that are unusual to stay that long) but I worry about look unprofessional or like a job hopper… But I’m tearing my hair out, some of the stories almost rival Hellmouth to the insanity!
Kathlynn* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm Get a new job, and just explain that the job you took was not what was promised, in hours and responsibilities, and so you are looking for a new job/switched jobs as you were in an untenable position.
four lights* January 18, 2019 at 3:33 pm Yes. “The position was originally meant to transition to full-time hours, but has remained part-time.” I think every interviewer will understand why you would leave a place that’s not a full time job.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 11:15 am It is not about never leaving a job in a short period of time. It is about having a pattern that shows you are reliable and leave jobs for good reasons, not frivolous ones. There is no automatic disqualification for leaving a job too soon if you have a good reason. For example, your job hours and duties are not what you were promised when hired. Presumably unless someone is looking to pull the same kind of bait and switch, and assuming you did due diligence when accepting the job you’re leaving and can talk about why you’re leaving in a succinct and professional way demonstrating good judgment, they will not mentally rule you out because you had to leave a crappy job after six months. Leaving a job is not a red flag. WHY you left a job can be.
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 11:21 am If you have left MANY jobs after six months (for things other than medical/family emergencies/moving to follow a partner/they were all short temp contracts/etc.), your judgment in accepting so many jobs that are bad fits may be questioned. Basically: you are fine. Start looking.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:00 am The job description changed to a job that was not a good fit for you.
Jinjur* January 18, 2019 at 2:21 pm I am interviewing for a new position on my team. This position requires someone to be very good at a lot of specialized skills that I do not have and know very little about. For example, they need to know best practices in certain situations and they need to be able to implement them in our organization, which does not currently follow best practices. How can I figure out if candidates are good for the job? Any ideas for questions to ask them?
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 2:29 pm What I’d do is search online for practical exercises you can have them do or hypothetical situations you can present them with, and check very specifically when you call your finalists’ references.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:06 am Will this new position have the authority to direct people to follow best practices? With the authority to enact consequences for not following best practices? Up to and including letting people go? Changing an organization’s practices to best practices is difficult. And without proper authority, practices will not change.
Youth* January 18, 2019 at 2:21 pm The last eleven months have been pretty unequivocally terrible for me. I’ve been doing everything I can to start the year off right, but horrible things outside of my control keep happening. This week started off rough with a traumatic experience, and I haven’t been able to eat or sleep very well. My team had three big deliverables this week. I’ve kind of turned my brain off and done an incredible amount of work, mostly stuff I don’t usually do. Then, on top of everything else, last night, a dear friend of mine backed into my car. When I showed up at work this morning, my manager, not knowing anything about my personal issues or stressful week (apart from the deliverables, of course), suggested that I leave as soon as my work is done. Needless to say, I’m really, really happy about it.
AvonLady Barksdale* January 18, 2019 at 2:22 pm Another question today… I have never been relocated by a company so this has never come up for me and I’m curious. If you’re interviewing for jobs in another state and the industry expectation is that the company will pay for relocation, at what point does your family come up? A lot of places won’t ask about family status during the interview, and it can’t be a factor in a hiring decision, so when a company makes an offer, I imagine they often wouldn’t know how many people would need to be included in the relocation package. Do companies just take their chances?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:33 pm I would just negotiate the relocation package during the negotiations based on what it costs to move the family because that seems like a pretty normal expectation that you’d have family going with. And, after all, does it really cost that much more to relocate say, four people instead of one? (I am not communicating this well, but if relocation is common in your industry then I bet they know what they are doing and this is all very normal).
The Ginger Ginger* January 18, 2019 at 2:30 pm How do you ask your (non-CEO) manager about the state of the business? Like, what phrasing should I use? I’m not sure how far to trust what we’ve been told (which has been optimistic-ish), but with several lay off cycles last year, plus no bonus check for winning an award that HAD a bonus attached the previous year, plus not back filling open positions, plus knowing we’re not meeting goals – but not how far off we’ve been, all the way down to no longer refilling free beverages in the break room, etc. Things just feel…really unsteady. And I want to figure out what level of worried I should be. Should I be brushing up my resume? Not making big purchases? Job hunting?!
whistle* January 18, 2019 at 3:20 pm I don’t think there’s a way to get a straight answer about the state of the business from anyone who actually knows the state of the business. From what you’ve described, I would brush up my resume and see what else is out there, but I would not necessarily jump ship for something that isn’t the right fit.
Argh!* January 18, 2019 at 2:30 pm Just curious… Is your office… Too cold? Too hot? Just right? Depends on the time of day
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:35 pm It’s too hot with the heat on, too cold without. There’s only on full blast or completely shut off. It’s the same in the summer, with the AC.
TechWorker* January 18, 2019 at 2:41 pm It used to be freezing all the time, all the women complained, now it’s pretty good!
Kathlynn* January 18, 2019 at 2:50 pm I work in retail, graveyards, and I’m cold year around, since the thermometer seems to be in a poor location. And doesn’t seem to adjust it’s self or the air conditioning to night time temps.
Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)* January 18, 2019 at 3:02 pm In my office you’d better keep a sweater or winter jacket handy if you’re in one of the glass offices. Those are like small freezers.
I Wrote This in the Bathroom* January 18, 2019 at 3:11 pm Mine is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. I brought an indoor thermometer in because I was feeling too hot one day and too cold the next. Feels just right now. The thermometer always shows the same 72F. If my home was set to that, we’d be sweating and walking around in our underwear. But in my office, we have days when it’s freezing and the thermometer still says 72. I’ve given up trying to understand this. The office has a large window and I think that is maybe what contributes to the weirdness. Before anyone asks about hot flashes and such, I share this office with a guy in his 20s and he reports the same freezing/hot/normal pattern.
Aurora Leigh* January 18, 2019 at 5:53 pm It varies from moment to moment . . for reasons I do not understand there is no way to turn the AC completely off. So today, the heat is on, it’s nice. Then it starts to get a little too warm. Then the AC kicks on and it gets really cold, which triggers the heat to kick back on . . . it’s a vicious cycle and no one cares.
Lady Phoenix* January 18, 2019 at 2:30 pm So… one of my coworkers from a different department chatted me up. She mentioned how I wasn’t appreciated here and that she would recommend me her son’s place of depot design. She tells me they are hiring and lists all these benefits and such. She tells me they are hiring and writes the contact info. Like… I dunno how to feel. Or if I should take this. We are having a big teapot show here, so I am worried about leaving before it. Also, if this new place doesn’t accept me, how will current teapot place feel. I’ve only worked here for 2 years and all of this stuff is sending me into a meffin panic right in the middle of work. I sorta wish this coworker drop this on me at the end of the day so that I could go homw and panic.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 2:37 pm Why are you panicing? You are under no obligation to do anything with the information. If you did apply, and they didn’t hire you, why would your current teapot place even know? The question here for you: Do you feel unappreciated at work? Do you like your job?
Lady Phoenix* January 18, 2019 at 2:52 pm I mean, the job is alright. But I don’t like that my projects have to be reviewed by one person who is more times then not busy. So i get a back up of no projects on some days. And I don’t know how to the the “production” side of teapot designing (like printing), so I want to learn that (and I won’t here). I guess I am panicking because what if I’m not good enough to be hired at new teapot place or something? What if this place finds out I was job hunting (and doing it because a coworker recommended it)?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 3:27 pm Well, not getting hired is sometimes the deal in job hunting. It’s not personal. Flipping that: What if. What if you applied, got hired and loved the new place?
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 12:01 pm How does she benefit from you leaving? Does she know one word from her (anyone?) and you panic? I wouldn’t act on this or want to work with her son. If you want to go, go, but elsewhere. Do nothing with her information. In future, you can say, “No, thanks.” In British, “chatted me up”=”hit on me”. I’ve not seen it used otherwise. For what you mean, they would say, “chatted to me”.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:11 am How well does she know you and your skill set? Can you find the job openings posted anywhere? If she does not know you well, this seems a bit…odd.
Argh!* January 20, 2019 at 9:10 am Apply for the job & tell them you’re not available until after the show. They’ll understand. If it’s really true that you’re unappreciated, you should consider your options. OTOH, does your coworker’s kid get a bonus for sending people their way? It’s worth asking that before following up on it.
Indie* January 18, 2019 at 2:35 pm Sooo…..how appropriate is it to mention ‘Kiss a Ginger’ day at work? I was walking down a corridor at work when a guy from another department (we’ve never spoken before) takes one look at my redheadedness and says “Oh, it was Kiss a Ginger day last week, wasn’t it? What a shame.” I was shocked and in the moment just responded that it had nothing to do with me as “I’m a handsome auburn” (Anne Shirley’s phrase is my go-to response when people are odd about my hair ). So, I think I let it be smoothed over as banter and maybe even came over as flirting when I should have let the joke fall on the floor. In the moment I was unsure as my workplace is informal and banter-y but we have literally never exchanged words before. It’s not just me is it? Am I right in thinking that’s a weird thing to refer to at work?
Lady Phoenix* January 18, 2019 at 2:58 pm The only time “kiss” should ever be mentioned in the workplace is when it refers to: A) Music (“While you’re lios are still red” is my new song I listen to ad nauseum) B) Acting C) Hersheys Any other time? Most definitely not
The Ginger Ginger* January 18, 2019 at 3:09 pm Coming from one redhead to another. This was a creepy thing to say to you. Just seeing you and remembering the day was last week is…fine? Though still maybe not something you say at work because kissing isn’t a work activity. But mouth filters being faulty, sure, could be fine. The “what a shame” is the real problem here because it implies they missed the chance to kiss you and regret it. LIKE KISSING WOULD BE ON THE TABLE OTHERWISE AND WOULD BE AN OKAY THING TO DO. Actively sharing they’re thinking about kissing you and were sorry to miss the opportunity is just one big nope!!!! My favorite response to people who mention kiss a ginger to me is “It’s never kiss THIS ginger day.”
Red Reader the Adulting Fairy* January 18, 2019 at 4:32 pm as a redhead *named* Ginger, I fully embrace my RBF when people make the “kiss a ginger” joke.
Indie* January 19, 2019 at 4:12 am Ooh I am stealing that last line. Honestly, I am surprised the day (which I had never heard of) has so much positive coverage. Im sure the man who invented it felt he is celebrating redheads as attractive (particularly since there is this weird opinion that redheaded men aren’t) but just hearing someone saying the phrase felt very aggressive to me as a woman. Plus try it with any other group and ghe problem becomes clear “Grab a (space for maligned group of people here)”
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:14 am A cold “I can’t believe you said that” is a good rejoinder to so much crap like this. “Next week is sexual harassment training day. Make sure you attend.”
TechWorker* January 18, 2019 at 2:39 pm I posted last week about being really stressed because my partner was sick and the doctors didn’t know why. (Under anononon cos idk why). Thank you to the people that posted supportive comments, I’m happy to report he is much much better this week. I’ve also posted before about generally finding it really rough at work with a mostly really new team, me being a new project lead and generally too much work. I think I’ll comtinue having generally too much work but I did have two useful chats today – one with my manager where he suggested dropping/delegating some of the admin I find dull and time consuming, and one with a manager on a different team. This conversation basically happened cos I complained in the pub about how little I currently enjoy my job, then drunk-texted (nothing bad) asking to have a work chat. We had that chat today and it was actually so useful – it was mostly about the practicalities of organising work, project tracking, and how to streamline the process so it doesn’t take too much time. Drunk texting colleagues is I’m sure generally inadvisable but I really appreciate this guy sitting down with me (as my own manager is more senior, and although generally great, does not have time to spend on ‘tips on how to efficiently manage incoming emails’.) TLDR: still feeling a bit down about my job as a whole but at least feel like I have some strategies in mind that might improve things.
Temperance* January 18, 2019 at 2:45 pm This is more of a club/volunteer situation, but it’s workplace adjacent. I manage volunteer opportunities for a community group, and I often get requests for volunteers to help out with certain events in high-crime areas. Last year, before I joined, apparently a few of our members were robbed after one of these events and had their car vandalized. I obviously did not agree to volunteer with that particular group this year, but they’d like to start again. Is there a tactful way to ask about personal safety/property safety when a request comes in? I don’t want to give in to the stereotype that certain neighborhoods are dangerous, but the group has had some bad experiences (and I had something stolen from my car while unloading food drive donations, too, so I’m part of the “bad experience” crowd).
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 2:58 pm I think it’s going to be hard to frame a general inquiry that gets you what you want, since nobody can guarantee safety and it’s impossible to ask in the abstract. Can you use the focus on the parking question to illuminate? “We’ve had problems sometimes with theft from and damage to volunteer cars–is there safe parking available that would mitigate that risk?” Then you might vamp from that and ask about mitigating personal risk, too.
Temperance* January 18, 2019 at 4:24 pm This is incredibly helpful, fposte. I couldn’t think of a way to ask this, especially because these tend to be high-crime/low-income areas where the residents are already so stigmatized.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:17 am I would ask about having escorts from parking to the venue and back again.
Asenath* January 18, 2019 at 5:33 pm I’d just ask directly if they have a problem with theft or vandalism. Even in my small, low-crime city it’s well-known that this is a risk anywhere vehicles are left unattended, in the parking lots of facilities offering meeting or performance space or near walking trails. Many facilities have notices up warning that there have been thefts from parked cars, and I don’t think they’d take an enquiry as a slur on the neighborhood.
That Girl From Quinn's House* January 18, 2019 at 7:44 pm One thing I’ve noticed, working in nonprofits, is that people who live in the neighborhood will tell you *exactly* where the unsafe areas/people and how to identify them. People who are simply working in the neighborhood, but live elsewhere, will always punt, “Oh this is such a wonderful community and we’ve never had any problems, everyone here is just so nice and friendly!” Even if they have had problems. I guess my answer would be to try and identify a source who’s willing to be candid with you, because they do exist.
Erika22* January 18, 2019 at 2:48 pm UK/European readers, what is your notice period in your employment contract? When I first got my current position, being from the US I was surprised at the three month notice period, but I knew Europe has a longer notice period in general so didn’t really think about it (plus it’s reciprocal, so my company has to give me three months as well). Now that I’m thinking about my job hunt this summer, I’m worried that’s long even by European standards. Does it seem particularly long to anyone? Will it hinder me when I start hunting this summer?
AeroEngineer* January 18, 2019 at 4:38 pm Depends on the country. I worked in the Netherlands before, and I had a 1 month notice, but now I am moving back to Germany where a 3 month one is the norm. It really depends, and I think if you are upfront (I was asked in my first phone screening even), it shouldn’t really matter so much, especially if you are applying within that same country.
MissDisplaced* January 18, 2019 at 5:57 pm My coworker and friend in France said it is 3 months, but when you give notice you can request an earlier end date of say 4-6 weeks. But less than 4 weeks seems pretty unheard of.
Hope is hopeful* January 19, 2019 at 3:27 am Mine is the standard month. However, higher ups (admin) and academics have 3 months notice so it’s not unheard of.
Bluesboy* January 19, 2019 at 5:02 am Three months for me. Was pretty surprised when I started reading this blogs and saw two weeks! How can you possibly replace someone in two weeks!? I have twice quit without another job lined up because I felt it was hindering my job search, but I’m lucky in that I have a secondary skill that I don’t much like, but will always cover my mortgage if I need it. I CAN give less notice though, but I have to slightly compensate my employer if I do – they get to take something out of my last pay check. My experience with other people is that they give less notice, maybe 6 weeks. They take a slight financial hit (although I have known some employers not take the money – they get it!) but often it is covered by unused holidays, so no real financial impact, and worth it to move to what is presumably a better job.
Myrin* January 19, 2019 at 8:58 am 1. Completely normal, although shorter notice periods (one month at least, though) do exist. 2. It won’t hinder your job hunt precisely because of its normalcy – prospective employers know that they might have to wait a couple of months.
Indie* January 19, 2019 at 10:57 am My contracts have usually been a month (UK) but I know people with three months notice periods. It is usually an industry dependant thing.
Ange* January 19, 2019 at 12:15 pm Where I work it depends on what level you are: before I got promoted it was 4 weeks, now it’s 6. Next level up is 8, and senior manager level is 3 months.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 2:23 am Wow. So, how likely is it that a company (that requires a three month notice) will tell you that you no longer have a job before the three months is up?
Durnnit* January 18, 2019 at 2:50 pm I know it’s late in the day, but I’m hoping a couple of folks might be able to help me out with this one. I had a couple of meetings this week that illustrated to me that I am not a strategic thinker. I’ve always been good at getting $#@! done, but not necessarily creating the plan or coordinating the support/buy-in. And to be honest, it’s not a strength of mine and I don’t enjoy doing it and it seems to me that in order to be successful I need to be able to be more strategic. But because I’m not strategic or political, I honestly don’t even know where to start the process in learning to be more strategic or creating strategic opportunities. My boss is great at it. But she’s a micromanager, which means a lot of the bigger picture meetings and information doesn’t filter down to me. Today, I’m feeling kind of hopelessly lost, stupid, and useless.
Rachel Green* January 18, 2019 at 3:10 pm Hey there. First, don’t be so hard on yourself. Second, it’s a bit tricky to give advice based on the few details you give, but I’ll give it my best shot anyway. I’m not a manager, I am an engineer, and my work requires that I be strategic because I work as a sort of liaison between my employer and the government on work projects. Sometimes “strategic thinker” is also corporate jargon made to make you think you’re incompetent. Based on my experience though, becoming/being more strategic and political can take many forms. It can mean being able to regularly review your calendar vs. your department’s calendar and project deadlines and anticipating what can go wrong, what obstacles to eliminate to get things done, planning ahead for a deadline and flagging things to your management of what is coming up. It can also mean being political in the sense of knowing who to talk to in a department to help you get work done, i.e. a senior manager or a specialist who you are on good terms with, who can to direct you to the right resources, whether they are people or reading material or old important emails. Also who definitely not to talk to, not to cc in an email, i.e. a manager with a short temper who doesn’t need to be in the loop all the time. It can mean knowing to tap into your allies/resources for advice when you encounter a big unexpected obstacle. That’s the best I’ve got. And you’re not stupid or useless. Stupid people don’t ask the posters in this blog space for advice. So you’re already being smart and strategic. It’s Friday, hopefully you don’t have to work on the weekend :)
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 4:21 pm Great advice from Rachel Green. The only additional thought I have is to think back to recent feedback or situations where you were told, or felt, that you weren’t ‘strategic enough’. Then try to parse out what questions/concerns/feedback you received then to help you identify more specific areas that you should flesh out or add to your proposals or work. This might give you some organization-specific information on what they would like done additionally or differently to achieve the strategic focus. Best of luck!
Durnnit* January 18, 2019 at 5:20 pm Thank you both! I’m not completely devoid of strategic thought. But, what I’ve found is that I have difficulty looking at the bigger picture (or even identifying it) and this week in a couple of meetings, I realized that what I discussed was very tactical, whereas what people wanted to know was how / why something worked or didn’t work from al arger perspective… and to be honest, I was kind of at a loss. I honestly haven’t received a lot of feedback (positive or negative) about this. At one point, my boss was discussing a colleague of mine and that she was “more strategic” in her planning of projects. However, when I asked for more information (and phrased it sincerely, so i could learn), it was almost like she didn’t want to discuss it. Not long after that, I was promoted and praised for getting stuff done. I do get stuff done, but I think in terms of planning and project management, these are just not my strong suits. If I have a project or a plan in place, I can execute it like a champ.
Indie* January 19, 2019 at 1:33 pm Strategy can mean so many different things, but for me it’s the question ‘what could stall it’. With that in mind you make a really pessimistic list, prioritizing time sensitive things or checking thing ahead of time; putting the difficult things first. Or you could do the opposite where you take care of the simple things to build up momentum first before the more difficut things can sap all motivation and destroy the plan. It is always different, there is no one catch all steategy. Though i have to say I dont trust your managers assessment.
periwinkle* January 18, 2019 at 10:41 pm TBH, do you need to be a strategic thinker? In my organization we have lots and lots of strategic thinkers, or at least people who create strategies (the Venn diagram does not exactly overlap 100%). And every year we get new strategies because the old ones weren’t producing results, mainly because everyone wants to do strategy but nobody is invested in execution. My division got a new VP (external hire) a couple years ago and she discovered this problem quickly. She pruned off some deadweight senior managers and put her trust in the people who get stuff done. A good strategic leader puts a lot of value on those tactical people who execute flawlessly. Sounds like you’re that kind of person. And it sounds like maybe you need the kind of boss who communicates as well as she creates, so you can take the strategy and make it reality.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:10 am Think back to your last completed project. In hindsight, what would have been a good strategic plan? How could you have coordinated support/buy in. (It is never bad to review a project you have just completed.) Based on these thoughts, is there someone you work with who is good at this stuff? Can you tell them what you did, what you think you could have done better in hindsight? Ask them what they would recommend?
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:11 am PS. Good for you that you can see places that you need/want to improve.
Kathlynn (Canada)* January 18, 2019 at 2:56 pm Okay, so another question, I’ve a work friend who is assistant manager, and wants to become a manager. The thing is, like most retail managers, he knows very little about the law. I know where and how (and have looked up most of these sources on my own in the past) to find the relevant laws. Is there any tactful way to give him these resources (labour board, worksafe site, privacy law site off the top of my head), without insulting him. Because I know more about the law then him (and most of my managers), and I know one law he’d already break if he were a manager (requiring a sick note every time an employee calls in sick is essentially seen as an unnecessary invasion into their medical information. his reasoning is to “cover his butt”) .
Librarygirl* January 18, 2019 at 3:07 pm Is it ever a good idea to take a step down in responsibility and pay to get into a particular workplace? To be clear this is a major step down in both. Think along the lines of a lawyer becoming a paralegal. If it matters any I’m in Academia.
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 3:11 pm It depends. Is there a clear upward path for staff in the new location? Do they have people currently in the position you’d like to reach that came up from the position you’d be taking? What’s the reason you’re leaving–is it that your school is circling the drain, or this is a move from a community college to an R1, or is it more about something like the commute? What will you do if you get stuck at the level you’re hired at?
Kathenus* January 18, 2019 at 4:26 pm fposte’s last sentence is really important. We see lots of letters in AAM for people who want to be in higher level positions and are frustrated with their current jobs. If you’d be unhappy in the role you take if it doesn’t lead to the higher position, or if it takes longer than you hoped, then that should be a consideration. And be aware of not making your employer feel that you aren’t interested in/committed to the role you take if you have too much focus on wanting to advance. I agree with the others that it can be the right thing for some, just think it through really carefully first to make sure it’s right for you.
The New Wanderer* January 18, 2019 at 4:49 pm Definitely consider whether the new lower position is worth it by itself, because you could end up there for longer than you want (if what you really want is a way up). I know in academia sometimes positions are really limited and you can end up waiting for someone to retire before a job opens up. The only time I considered taking a major pay cut and job change is when I was interested in the new job itself (engineering job to teaching). It didn’t end up happening so I don’t know if it would have been worth it to me though.
Librarygirl* January 18, 2019 at 5:10 pm Fposte, the path at the other is a little less clear but there is more opportunity for growth than where I am currently. I’ve heard of people moving up but it’s more they took the job while working on their degree while I already have the degree. Yeah it’s a lot like going from a trade school to a R1. Yeah it’s getting stuck there that really has me hesitating. Short answer is I don’t know.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 3:13 pm It could be a good idea. Off the top of my head… to avoid relocation or to achieve a wanted relocation, if an otherwise good employee is in way over their head in a promotion position and it’s step back or get fired, if an employee’s circumstances have changed and they are looking for less responsibility/travel/better balance. As long as the employee knows that this could be construed as the employee was forced to step back for performance reasons and/or it could be hard to adjust to holding a less responsible/prestigious role.
Janet* January 18, 2019 at 3:25 pm I took a step down in a job change, but maybe not as dramatic as the one you’re describing. I did it to go work for a much more prestigious company in my field. I was at a much smaller competitor and they were/are the industry leader. I did it to get a foot in the door, and within 18 months I was back in a parallel position but at a much better employer. I never regretted it, but that’s just one experience.
Temperance* January 18, 2019 at 4:32 pm So as a lawyer, I would never advise anyone to become a paralegal if they’re a practicing attorney. Paralegals work their tails off and basically do lawyer work, without the pay bump.
PB* January 18, 2019 at 5:51 pm Since you’re asking about academia, I’m guessing your thinking of making a move along the lines of faculty or professional staff to paraprofessional? If so, I wouldn’t advise it. I’ve been in this field for about 10 years, and it’s very rare to see someone go from paraprofessional to professional/faculty at the same institution. My first role after school was paraprofessional. I had to change institutions to move up. This isn’t to say that it never happens, but it’s not common. You could end up taking a huge step back in title and pay, and spend the next 10 years trying to get back to where you were, possibly having to change institutions again. Unless there’s a major benefit (example: you want a degree from this university, and they’ll fund it at 100% if you’re an employee), I’d be wary of making this move.
PB* January 18, 2019 at 5:55 pm Also, for context, I’m a tenure-track librarian at an R1 university. If you have any questions about that particular track, let me know. I do hiring, training, and priority setting as part of my job.
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 3:09 pm So I’m looking for a bit of a check on what’s reasonable regarding something that’s been happening. I’m not in a place to affect changes, just looking to see if mine (and my coworkers) reactions are reasonable or if we’re being the bad neighbors. Background: we’re an office on the second floor of a business building, with two other businesses below us and a shared parking lot for the whole building. Technically our square footage is larger than the other two businesses combined as the second floor cantilevers out over the parking lot to provide shelter for a few spots. We’ve got a lot of people working for us too—only three managers (one is coming in while another is stepping back) andfive weekday employees, but at least 150 ICs are based out of our office. (Some with assigned desks, many without.) That’s way more people than below us. However, even the busiest normal days we don’t usually have more than 40-50 people here and using up spaces in the parking lot, leaving plenty for the other businesses. Now on to the issue that’s been coming up. Once a month (minus Dec) we have a business meeting where we try to get as many of the ICs here as possible, for updates and acknowledging those who have worked hard, etc. the meeting itself is about an hour, and we provide lunch about half an hour before the meeting starts. If you factor in most of the extra ICs coming in a half hour bed lunch and leaving afterwards, the parking lot is full to bursting for about 2.5-3 hours, where even the adjacent street parking gets filled up. The last couple of meetings one of the higher ups at one of the of the businesses downstairs came up to complain (in a very annoying & unproductive way). Property Management has since reiterated to her that such complaints are supposed to be filtered through them. TL;DR— what’s your opinion on one of three businesses filling up parking for 2.5-3 hours 11 days out of the year?
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 3:18 pm It doesn’t matter that it’s such a small amount of time if that amount of time means that the regular parkers/other businesses have no place to park during that time. For example, what if I have an important client coming in to meet with me and they arrive only to not be able to park because it happens to be within that window? Especially if your company doesn’t warn the other companies.
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 3:47 pm There are dedicated spaces for clients, and we try to reinforce that with our ICs. We’ve also become a lot more vigilant about our ICs using the handicap spots illegally per their request, since a lot of their clients need them. Now the only one I ever see in the handicap spots is someone who has a placard and we’ve made sure they know that the placard HAS to be displayed. Unfortunately I don’t know if our managers are letting the other business know—and they’ the kind that would insist on doing it themselves.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 4:11 pm To be honest you don’t sound like the best parking lot buddies with this description and your others. 1. You have parked in the neighbor’s client spots and may still be 2. You have been parking in the handicap spot without the placard (I’m reading into your statement that you had to remind the person with the placard. 3. Once a month a person could go to lunch only to return and have to park several blocks away. Which could be disruptive if they haven’t planned extra time to find parking. It doesn’t sound like you have a whole lot of influence in the situation, so you might be stuck with being the crappy neighbor :(
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 4:34 pm Yeah, unfortunately. :( For clarification—the client spots are for clients of all three businesses, though our ICs usually don’t schedule meetings at the same time as the office meeting. And when we find out about parking infractions, we do deal with it to stop them. We do have managers that aren’t great though, and the violators are all ICs that they’re desperate to not lose to competitors, do they haven’t been pushing as hard on many things (and that means regulations that affect my work aren’t enforced either, which makes headaches for me). Most of the ICs in this business come off as cheap entitled brats too, and where we’re located seems to bring out the worst ones. Better management would be nice…
fposte* January 18, 2019 at 3:20 pm It sounds like your crowd arrives after the morning commute–are they mostly just squeezing out latecomers, then? I’d feel different if they were coming in in the morning and blocking people from their regular parking, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what’s happening. I would still give other businesses advance notice and maybe thank you treats or something for the inconvenience, though, because 1) it’s courteous and 2) it’ll minimize the chance that the property manager solves the problem with assigned spaces.
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 3:31 pm Most of them are coming later in the day, arriving around noonish and gone Soon after the meeting is over. And related to above, we have parking spots that are supposed to be reserved for clients, and we try to emphasize to the ICs to leave them for clients for all of the businesses. I have no idea if the other businesses are being informed or not. I would think if anyone is, it would be one of the managers, but I don’t have that. One of the businesses below hasn’t said anything, but they’re also in a closely related industry. If they weren’t a rival to one of our affiliates, they’d probably be sending someone up to sit in on the meeting.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 3:37 pm So if they’re coming in at noon, I can kind of see the problem. It sounds like the other companies employees are likely running out to lunch activities and and then coming back to no parking. That can be an unexpected irritant. Do you hold the meetings on the same day of the month to where other parkers could plan?
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 3:59 pm They’re usually consistently the third Wednesday of the month. I can understand the frustration of that. I know most of us don’t leave at lunch time because parking around here is even worse than our parking lot is. I walk for lunch because it takes too long to find parking by the lunch spot I go to—especially if it’s raining out.
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 4:19 pm We typically have them on the third Wednesday of the month. I can understand the frustration at not finding parking. When I worked at our company’s HQ, our parking lot would fill up every day, and a significant portion of it would be from nearby businesses that had their own lots and would get snippy if we parked in their spaces (even though their lots never filled up because they were using ours!). At least in my office, out of our employees we either bring lunch or walk on lunches because the parking around here is atrocious in general. We’re near this city’s downtown area and that means we have lots of choices within 5-15 minutes walking, but if we want to go to those places further out, it takes longer to find parking than the 15 minute walk. (I have my lunch at one of those spots daily.) From what I’ve seen on my walks (in terms of card coming/going) it seems like the other businesses are similar.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm This sounds like the best approach. Nobody wins in office parking wars. The best thing to do is be as accommodating as possible Another thing you could try is to encourage your non-regulars to park on the street or even at a close alternate location and carpool the rest of the way.
It's me* January 18, 2019 at 3:30 pm I think advanced notice to the other two businesses would be a kindness. If you didn’t know the frequency and were surprised to find the parking ramp full one Wednesday when you got to the office it is a different story than if you knew ahead of time and could plan accordingly.
Anonyby* January 18, 2019 at 5:00 pm Thank you all! I was thinking “is it really that big a deal for something that’s only once a month for a few hours?”, and I’m definitely rethinking that opinion. As I mentioned before, I’m in no position to make any changes. I’m not a manager, or even the admin who’s in contact with property management for our building. This was a good check to compare to the not-always-great opinions I hear at my work.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 1:31 pm Could the ICs park in a corner of the lot, ignoring spaces and taking up as little room as possible? It’d be annoying for them when leaving, unless a few people can act as valets and there’s enough room in the lot to start lining up people’s cars to leave. Can they take public transit and you send a van for them? Can these meetings be done offsite?
CM* January 20, 2019 at 12:30 am I’m late, and I second the idea that the other business should know ahead of time what the schedule is, but I want to throw something else in. It seems to me that, no matter how much square footage one business has in the building, one business should NEVER be taking up the whole parking lot. At least part of the parking lot should be reserved for the other businesses housed there.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:17 am Would your business be willing to reimburse for taxis or lyfts to the site for this meeting?
Kesnit* January 18, 2019 at 3:14 pm I’ve been thinking about this since the question about sick leave a few weeks ago… When is it appropriate to call out? I will preface by I cannot work from home unless I bring work home with me in advance. I’ve long held to the idea that if I can work, I should go to work. This has led to me getting weird looks from others when I am working with my voice mostly gone. Running a fever, vomiting, things like that are clearly “cannot work.” But there is a large gap between that and feeling 100%.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 3:21 pm If you have a bad cough or sneezing sniffles, it’s best to at least limit in office time so as not to bother others. When I have a bad cold I might stay home on the worst day, and come in, leave early as needed for a few days.
R2D2* January 18, 2019 at 4:25 pm +1 I also take an occasional mental health day when I feel on the edge of burnout (if my presence is not absolutely critical at work that day, of course).
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 1:36 pm Can you reasonably handle the commute and comfortably perform your duties for the day? Do you feel like you could pass out at any time and would welcome it? Is lying down your fondest wish? If staying home for a day and resting your voice would help, why not?
CM* January 20, 2019 at 12:19 am Yeah, that’s how I was raised, too. For me, it’s less about making a careful decision about when to take sick time and more about feeling guilty and like a slacker if I dare to call in sick to work when I could technically stand up and go. I’ve been trying to ease off that attitude lately, because I’ve realized it’s not super common and (in my view) probably not super healthy. My threshold right now is “Does the idea of calling in sick bring me such a tremendous sense of relief that I want to collapse in gratitude?” if the answer is yes — whether that’s because I have a cold or a migraine or didn’t sleep the night before or I’m really, really sad — then I make the call.
Katie* January 18, 2019 at 3:38 pm I’m graduating in May with my masters…When should I start applying for jobs? (any advice is welcome)
AwkwardTurtle* January 18, 2019 at 3:53 pm This seems like it’d be field dependent, but I’d imagine you could start applying now, but make it clear you’re not available until May.
AnotherAlison* January 18, 2019 at 4:02 pm In my field, openings for May grads and interns are filled in the fall.
wingmaster* January 18, 2019 at 5:56 pm Congrats on graduating! I also graduated in May, and in my field, I started job searching in late January/early February in order to secure a job before graduation.
Penguin2* January 18, 2019 at 7:32 pm As PPs noted, it totally depends on the field. For my company, we’ve already made offers for May 2019 graduates, so you would have missed that deadline.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:20 am Does your university have a placement center (or some sort of employment center where employers sign up to interview with students in their field)? If so, check with them. Do you have a graduate advisor that you can ask?
Friday afternoon fever* January 21, 2019 at 11:34 am Now. Say in your cover letter that you’re graduating expected May 2019 and would be available to start in etc etc. If that doesn’t work for companies they’ll screen you out. If you find 100% of companies are screening you out because of this, then yeah maybe you’re applying too early. But the other option is missing out on jobs that might be good fits that are hiring now.
Tired anon* January 18, 2019 at 3:45 pm Late I know but hoping for some advice. My office has a partner office and recently we’ve been sharing a (temporary for now) admin. Her work is supposed to be split 50/50. I don’t know what the other office gives her. I only know what I give her. This week things kinda exploded because the the office said the temp never had time for them. And it turned out that the temp was feeling overwhelmed, which was found out when my manager talked to her. The problem? The temp literally cried in front of our manager because she thought I was mad at her last night. This promoted my manager to say to me today, in front of another coworker mind you, that I had to be “more gentle” and work on being less brisk and sarcastic. Ironically, I actually didn’t speak to the temp yesterday; I was stressed out and busy because our manager took a chunk of work back from her and put it back on me. But my mansger also said that because this temp has anxiety we need to be gentle. I’m really bothered by the fact that I can’t trust this temp to speak up when she’s overloaded. I don’t know how I’m supposed to give her work when I have a) no way of knowing how full her plate is, and b) I apparently can’t trust her to say something if her plate is too full (she’s very much a yes man, I’m recognizing now). I’m also bothered by the fact that she can’t seem to manage her own emotions. I’m sorry but if her anxiety is that bad our office not the place for her. It’s stressful, high volume and we work on tight deadlines. And I’m frustrated because I thought this temp and I had a good working relationship before this – we joked around, she would come to me with all her questions, etc – so the fact that she didn’t tell me it was too much really blindsided me and so I am mad and a little hurt by all this. I’m not sure what to do come Monday. She was out sick today. Thoughts?
Not a Real Giraffe* January 18, 2019 at 4:29 pm I am coming from the POV of someone who has been an admin for multiple managers. A couple of things may be going on here: 1) The admin may not know that you have no idea what her workload is. She may assume you coordinate with her other manager, so may not realize she needs to tell you she’s out of bandwidth. 2) Your her manager; it can be very, very difficult to speak up to your manager to say you’re overloaded. 3) She’s a temp, which means she may feel even less able to speak up about her workload. I think on Monday, you have an emotion-free, collaborative conversation about how to move forward. Maybe she just needs to hear you say it’s okay to tell you she’s overloaded. Maybe you’ll hear that she wants you to ask her, “do you have the bandwidth for this?” when you assign her a new task. The “be gentle with her” messaging from your manager is annoying – but perhaps with the above conversation, you’ll open a better route of communication that won’t lead you down a road of constantly tiptoeing around her anxiety.
Tired anon* January 18, 2019 at 4:37 pm I should have clarified, sorry. I am not her manager. I direct some of her workflow but I’m just her co-worker. My manager is also her manager. That’s why I have no idea what the other office gives her, and also why I feel it’s not my responsibility to know. I also made it clear to her when I started that I had nothing to do with the other office; she is aware of that.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 1:41 pm The main problem is you manager, who called you brisk and sarcastic (I think this framing is his, not hers) and could easily solve this by coordinating with the other manager, encouraging the admin to speak up if overloaded, and replacing her if she can’t hack it.
MsM* January 18, 2019 at 4:47 pm If you’re not already, you might want to start using daily/weekly task lists: have her email you with what’s on her plate in rough order of priority, let her know what you need, give her a chance to respond if that’s going to be too much so you can make adjustments or she can go back to the other admin, and then see where things stand at COB. Also, I think you might want to take a step back on the “I can’t trust her” feelings. Yes, she needs to learn how to articulate her limits. Yes, she needs to be able to absorb negative feedback without falling apart. But it sounds like part of the reason she’s having a hard time saying “no” is because she does like you and doesn’t want to let you down. Use that to your advantage and reinforce for her that it’s okay for her to be honest if she can’t take something on, because maybe she does need that spelled out. That is, assuming it is okay for her to push back on assignments: you’re kinda giving me mixed messages with the whole “tight deadlines” thing, so maybe she’s equally confused.
CM* January 20, 2019 at 12:11 am There are two separate things going on in this story. One is that there’s an issue with the workload on the temp and the way that’s being managed (this one is very easy to sort out with a conversation). The other is that you’re upset that she’s upset because you don’t think that she should be (that one’s more difficult). I think you might feel that you’ve been vilified or attacked in some way — or that you were humiliated when your boss told you to ease up on the temp, and you didn’t see it coming, so it was a bad surprise. And I think that maybe you are responding to that bad surprise by trying to put the shame on her through building an argument for why she’s a weakling. If you enter into your future interactions with her from the position “I need to prove that the problem is her and not me” the situation is just going to keep deteriorating and it’s going to be obvious to the people around you that you have some kind of honor grudge against a random temp. My advice would be to approach it instead from the position “I need to find a way for us to work together.” And, on that front, your boss is probably giving you good advice about modifying the way you approach her. I know it sucks to realize that someone had a different idea of what your relationship was — and much less positive idea — than you did, but you can be a big enough person to absorb that information and try to change the relationship for the better.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:24 am a third thing going on is that the admin does not know how to prioritize tasks. This is something a manager should do. However, since she is shared by two departments, this is even harder for her to do.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:25 am What I mean is her manager(s) together should be prioritizing her tasks with her.
Jan Levinson* January 18, 2019 at 3:48 pm I’ve been thinking about this since the “passive aggressive notes around the office” read came out recently. A couple of weeks ago, a coworker of mine was laminating some papers, and got a piece of paper and laminating sheet completely stuck in the laminator, causing a jam. My manager ended up fixing the laminating machine, but had to basically disassemble the whole thing with tools to fix it, which took quite some time. After fixing it, she asked me to make a sign to hang up on the wall by the laminating machine, reminding people not to run anything through the machine without using a cover (that’s what caused the jam in the first place, and it’s not the first time it’s happened). So, I made a friendly sign that said, “Please do not run anything through the laminator without using a cover. Otherwise, a jam cam occur causing the machine to stop functioning. Thanks!” The next day, the coworker who had jammed the machine the previous day, sees the sign and says (to no one in particular, but I happened to be in earshot), “what the f*** is this?! I hate when people do sh** like this.” Although it wasn’t my idea to hang up the sign in the first place, I thought the sign was perfectly fine. Everyone in our office uses the laminator from time to time, but many don’t use it enough to know that you need to use a cover to prevent jams. The sign was just a reminder so that others don’t run into the same issue. I suppose we could have sent out an office-wide email, but I feel as though that would have been the kind of email no one would care about and/or would overlook. It’s info you’d only care about/want to know if you were literally standing at the laminator to laminate something. Curious to know what others think – is this sign considered passive aggressive?
Kathlynn (Canada)* January 18, 2019 at 3:56 pm I think it’s a good sign. But at the same time the other coworker probably felt singled out. If I was the manager, I might have warned them that the sign was going up, because it’s a mistake other coworkers have also made and I hoped to prevent it from happening again. But I don’t think I would have gone out of my way to do so. i also think that the coworker is/was over reacting, but that’s emotions for you, their level isn’t always what others consider rational/logical.
R2D2* January 18, 2019 at 4:27 pm Your sign was fine. It will prevent others from making the same mistake! She probably just felt embarrassed.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 4:33 pm Seems fine to me. I’m sure guy felt like a dumb ass for causing the jam and subsequent tear down of the machine. (I would have!) A passive aggressive note would be “Go ask Jim how not to laminate things… if he’s not available use a cover!” Or “Be a lover and use a cover” (lol this one sounds like a condom commercial) Or “Why yes, I love tearing this machine apart, please don’t use a cover of any kind”
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 5:35 pm They were probably feeling guilty for jamming the laminator so believed the sign was directed at them. For specific technical instructions, we use a more blunt approach here. I would have posted “Always use a cover. Laminator jams without cover”.
Luisa* January 18, 2019 at 6:03 pm I think this is fine. After our then-new copy machine kept getting screwed up when people messed around with the settings for really simple jobs, our office manager put up signs advising (warning) people to not change settings. Perhaps people felt singled out, but I think most people were glad to not deal with the machine constantly malfunctioning.
AwkwardTurtle* January 18, 2019 at 3:51 pm I’m sorting out a visit with a research group in a graduate program in March… the admin I’m coordinating with never answered my question about who is paying for the visit, but when they got back to me with dates I mentioned that I’d like to stay through the weekend (dates were near a weekend) as I have family nearby, but I’d be happy to pay the difference if the lab is covering it (since I’ve yet to get a response on who’s actually covering it). I feel so awkward, but there’s no reason staying through the weekend should make a difference, and frankly if I’m going to be living there I’d like to have a chance to actually see the city I’d be living in. I’m so worried about it all, but I suspect that the person is barely thinking about it… AHHHH!
AwkwardTurtle2.0* January 18, 2019 at 6:31 pm OH THANK GOD. You have helped me no overanalyze this the entire weekend, haha. :)
I'm A Little Teapot* January 18, 2019 at 4:01 pm Thank goodness it’s Friday. I need some urgent help regarding NOT giving a reference for someone. Background: I worked with this girl, and she was horrible. Really bad at the job. Very nice girl, but no one wanted to work with her because the work product was SOOOO bad. Now, she’s looking for a new job, and texted letting me know that she’s applied to my company, my department, and asking if I’d serve as a reference. Any reference I’d give would basically be what I said above. So, what do tell her re her request?!? HELP!
AwkwardTurtle* January 18, 2019 at 4:07 pm I think this is in the archives somewhere… found it! Title is reference requests when you can’t give a good one, link is my username :)
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:30 am Tell her the job is not a good fit for her and so you cannot recommend her. But then, if she asks ‘why?’ Maybe just be honest with her? Otherwise, she is job hunting and may ask you again and again if you are not clear. Ugh.
Jane* January 20, 2019 at 4:15 pm I’d say “I really enjoyed working with you at X company, but I remember that the actual product of your work was not at a standard where I’d feel comfortable recommending you at my current company. I am not sure that this position would be a great fit for you, and I can’t put my reputation here on the line when I’m not confident it would work out. I hope you find something that is better suited to your talents, and I wish you the best with your search.”
FOIA Lawya* January 18, 2019 at 4:05 pm I’m wondering if any British/UK commenters have experience with public records requests and databases in the UK. I’m US-based, but increasingly getting tasked to look at public records in the UK. I’m familiar with most of the government websites, but anyone know of other good sources? (Know this is pretty self-serving, but I’d love to learn more about EU public records too if anyone has recommendations!)
Megan* January 18, 2019 at 4:14 pm Hi all! I work full time as a social worker. I’m about to start a doctorate. This year it’s subjects about research and then next year the actual research amps up. I’m putting together my study leave application however finding it hard to forecast what leave I’ll need this year as the subjects are online. Has anyone done a doctorate? Any advice/suggestions?
Curly Sue* January 19, 2019 at 7:31 am I’m in the last six months of my PhD now, but I did my courses on campus so I’m not sure if I can be of any help for figuring out online timing. What kind of leave request are you making? (Hours free per week / months per year / ?)
Neosmom* January 18, 2019 at 4:18 pm My newest boss (of 3!) called me “Radar O’Reilley” Wednesday. Ugh. I know he meant it in a complimentary manner, but I am a good EA who has been doing this kind of work for a very long time. It has gotten easier to anticipate needs and work quick, effective responses into my workflow. I’m not wide-eyed and spooky. Rant ended. Thank you for “listening”.
nonegiven* January 19, 2019 at 5:05 pm Radar really wasn’t all that spooky, it looked to me like he had really good hearing so he heard the helicopters coming a couple of seconds earlier than everyone else. The rest was just like you, anticipating a boss’s needs before he thought of them.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:34 am Radar answered his boss’s questions before the boss could finish articulating them. His boss would tell Radar, “I need the report on” as Radar was handing him the report. I never saw Radar as creepy, just amazing.
cathullu* January 18, 2019 at 4:26 pm Hi all. I am a part of two committees at my office that are not related to my role (think teapot seller who moonlights as chess committee PM and tea steerco member). These committes are important to me and I am doing meaningful work on their behalf. I would like to find a way to included my work and roles on these committees on my resume. The first question is, should I? They are directly related to the org and in fact are tying into overall strategy in a small way. If I should include, how do I document? Thanks for your help.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 11:46 pm As for how to say it, I would call it “Sat on X Committee” and the number of years or “Chaired X Committee” or whatever your role is. If you have specific accomplishments from the committees that would be helpful in your job search, I’d list them as accomplishments from your job but maybe specify “Achieved X as part of Committee Y” or something. The reason I’d specify it was part of your committee work is because you say the committees are unrelated to your role, and you might not want people to get the idea that your work was something completely different than it was.
Lynne879* January 18, 2019 at 4:30 pm I’ve been aggressively job searching for a few months now & I’ve come to the conclusion that I think my resume might be the problem, not my cover letter. My job history is very “eclectic”- I’ve worked in retail, in an office, as a salesperson & at a museum (all part-time jobs). I want more administrative work & I’ve been struggling to tailor my resume to that when I’ve had all these different jobs. I’m also struggling to “focus on the accomplishments” part when I don’t really have that many accomplishments. Does anyone have any advice?
AwkwardTurtle2.0* January 18, 2019 at 5:44 pm Focus on accomplishments is really not as helpful for some sorts of work… and also if you have an eclectic resume, people don’t necessarily know what of your previous work is relevant. I’d just focus on the aspects of all your work that apply most to admin jobs, even if it’s not accomplishment based. (I am not an expert though, or an admin! Just thought I’d try and help as someone else with an eclectic resume :) )
atexit8* January 18, 2019 at 6:14 pm stress your PC skills — Word Excel Powerpoint Outlook at the top in Summary almost every administrative assistant job requires the ability to use the PC I was asked yesterday in a phone interview about how I collaborated with others, how I dealt with unhappy customers pull strong points from each of your job
Starbuck* January 18, 2019 at 4:31 pm I became frustrated at my co-worker “Joe” today and I don’t know where to go from here. We share an office doing a mix of IT user support and systems administration. Because of the support side someone from our department (me, Joe, and 3 part-time interns) must be in the office at all times to take care of any support needs. Joe has severe professionalism issues (some complaints abut sexual comments, not completing duties) and often his shortcomings fall on my shoulders since we’re the only two full-time employees in my sub-department. Joe also often leaves the building for hours at a time and can’t be found, or will do things like go across the street to a different building to grab a soda from the vending machine when we have a machine one floor above us. Several times a month he participates in “Learning Lunches” that our company sponsors which puts him out of work for 2 hours or more each time, often causing me to push my lunch break towards the end of the day or completely miss it. My boss knows about much of these issues but nothing has changed. I’ve been on a very large, very important project for almost 2 weeks now. Between my day-to-day duties and this project I am stretched incredibly thin and noticeably stressed out. Joe is the administrator of a specific department and sent a user an email 3 weeks ago and asked them to come in so he could set up a new computer for them. The user responded today and asked if “sometime around lunchtime was good”, which Joe replied and CC’d me on the email that “Someone would be here” and to come on in. Joe usually takes his lunch at 12, so I responded to Joe that he may want to nail down a specific time with the user to make sure he would be here. Joe never responded, and at 12pm on the dot he taps on my desk to let me know that the user was on the way and his wife is waiting for him outside. He asked if I could set up the user’s computer and I looked at him and told him he needed to start scheduling these appointments instead of allowing walk-ins, and that I’m stressed beyond belief with this project. Joe shouted at me to “just f***ing forget it”, and that he was going to tell his wife to go home and that he wasn’t going to lunch. As he stormed out of the office to talk to his wife he shouted an expletive at me from down the hallway. Joe returned a few minutes later and in 15 minutes had the new user set up and on his way, and hopped in the car with his wife to go to lunch. Joe hasn’t spoken to me since then, and it’s been incredibly tense and awkward in our office. I feel that, with the history between us, my response was warranted. But I still have that feeling of guilt for upsetting him. Joe has a track record of passing off his work to other people so I don’t know how to feel.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 1:57 pm Starbuck, you are the injured party here. Stop postponing your lunch. If coverage is needed, ask your supervisor how they want to deal with Joe’s learning lunches. (I want to admire his myriad methods for skiving, but I have standards.) Next time Joe tries to dump something on you, can you be elsewhere? If you had gone out for lunch at 11:55, would Joe have run around asking everyone where you were, claiming you forgot the appointment, and being the hero by doing his job? If the expletive he yelled is personal, especially if gendered, that’s something you want to be specific about when you discuss this with your supervisor.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:06 pm I hadn’t see the part about coverage and forgot about the sexual comments. Unless someone can convince you they are working with Joe and expect he’ll improve, job searching is the best solution. It’s known that Joe skives, including disappearing, speaks shamefully to colleagues, including swearing, and no one’s stopping him. Nothing good can come of this. I only see this getting worse for you. He can turn everything around on you and make you the bad guy, and you already feel bad for him when he verbally abused you, so he’s successful and heretofore untouchable. (Unless all the work is done in your office, how do you function without being in regular contact? If Joe’s gone hiking for a soda, do you have to stay put, even if someone needs help at their desk? I don’t imagine Joe is fulfilling his coverage duties by staying when you are elsewhere.)
MsM* January 18, 2019 at 4:37 pm Don’t feel guilty. Even if your request was unreasonable – which it wasn’t – Joe’s reaction was incredibly unprofessional and way out of proportion. Once you’re through this busy period, you should probably sit down with him to make that clear.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 11:40 pm This is key. The Joe’s of the world try to make this an argument about whether or not they are right to be angry, and the unspoken assumption is that, if they’re right to be angry, they can’t be held accountable for anything they DO while angry. But that’s not true. Even if the OP doubts themselves about whether what they did was right, what Joe did was DEFINITELY wrong.
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 4:42 pm I think you totally did the right thing. Who cares if Joe’s upset… (i’m being blunt today) Joe’s an ass. Keep doing what you did today and he’ll learn not to expect you to pick up his slack and cover for him. He was bitching as a way for you to think twice about doing what you did. He’s training you that if you don’t go along with his program you are going to feel uncomfortable. Don’t let that be the lesson… instead turn it around on him and teach him that you won’t be cowed into keeping the peace and doing his work. People like this chose their targets wisely, they choose people who care how they are perceived and for people who value keeping the peace. I say this not to make you feel bad. But to tell you it’s ok to push back on that idea. You can still value all the things that you do with others, but to put the Joe’s of the world into a different category… one that is titled… “Eff Them… I don’t care what they think” Seriously, I applaud you and am yelling “GO YOU” in my head right now for setting a boundary and sticking to it, even if really uncomfortable for you.
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 4:45 pm Oh my goodness no, do not feel guilty. Joe sounds like a nightmare. Sounds like you set a boundary with Joe and he didn’t like that – so he threw a fit. As for what to do, I’d have another conversation with your boss. Telling a coworker to “just f***ing forget it” and then yelling another expletive down the hall is a huge violation of professionalism.
Holly* January 18, 2019 at 5:09 pm Have you spoken to your boss about this? I know you mentioned your boss knows about the other general issues, but you really should talk to your boss about this specific incident AND Joe’s general behavior and how it’s been affecting you.
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 5:29 pm None of us can tell you how to feel. We can tell you how we would feel. Or at least how I would feel. Joe is an entitled, unprofessional jerk. And probably a bit of a bully. And his emotional outbursts at being called on his BS are not my/your problem. I wouldn’t feel any guilt at all. Since I don’t have the patience for Joe’s yelling tactics I would feel amusement and contempt for him that I caused him to lose it. I would feel a bit guilty for being amused by it all, but would continue to be amused.
Anonymous Educator* January 18, 2019 at 5:36 pm My boss knows about much of these issues but nothing has changed. I know Joe seems like the bad guy here, and he is, but honestly, the only reason this continues is because your boss is allowing it to continue. If you boss knows about much of these issues, make sure she also knows about all of the issues, obviously including how poorly Joe is managing things but also including how it’s affecting you, your work, and your quality of life at work. If your boss does anything about it, great. If not, start looking for a new job, because things will not change with Joe for the better.
Office Gumby* January 20, 2019 at 4:23 am Yes, time to let your boss know about ALL the things. Be specific. Email it, so there is a paper trail. For some of the more egregious and/or illegal behaviour (like disappearing for a few hours and can’t be found) cc in HR. Don’t put up with his crap. Don’t assume your manager knows as much as you think he does. He might not, or the few things he does know he might not think is enough to act on. It is your job to report all things that affect your working conditions. That includes everything Joe does that makes your job uncomfortable.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 6:06 pm You feel guilty. You need to get over that and all the other crap I am guessing you put up with because you’ve lost sight of normal working conditions.
atexit8* January 18, 2019 at 6:09 pm Are you a female? Because men don’t get feelings of guilt for upsetting others. Snap out of this!
Cheesesteak in Paradise* January 18, 2019 at 7:49 pm You should read the book “Why Does He Do That.” Joe is using classic abuser psychology – like how they fly into a rage so can’t help breaking things (supposedly) but they never break their own stuff and snap out of it when an authority figure is around. Joe is trying to intimidate and control you. But I agree that while you have a Joe problem, what you mostly have is a boss problem. Your boss knows Joe is not pulling his weight but doesn’t care because you are pulling both your weights. That’s on your boss.
Jersey's mom* January 19, 2019 at 7:52 am You did nothing wrong. Joe is an a$$. Send yourself an email documenting the entire interaction, along with a synopsis of Joe’s sulky non-interaction/refusal to talk to you. This will continue to happen, and the more documentation you have on Joe, the easier it will be for you to show boss and HR why Joe needs to go on a PIP or get fired. Good luck!
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 3:40 am Keep standing up for yourself. Set more boundaries with Joe. Maybe if people show up when Joe is “out,” start sending them to your manager to deal with?
Greensleeves* January 18, 2019 at 4:40 pm I wonder if other ADHDers have any suggestions for handling transitions and short breaks at work without getting distracted? I have been working on finding the right med/dose and putting better structures in place to keep me on task at work and I am slowly making progress on those, but I still really struggle with this. For instance, after a good burst of work on a task, or coming back to my office after a meeting, I feel like I need a short break to reset before I move on to another task. I am struggling to find something that clears my mind but doesn’t become its own distraction – i.e., surfing, phone games, etc do not work well for me! I’d love to hear if others have found something that works, as I’m having a hard time coming up with alternative ideas. Thanks!
Arctic* January 18, 2019 at 4:58 pm Sometimes I’ll do an outline for the rest of the day or a to-do list of what needs to get done. Now, I almost NEVER actually follow it. But it’s a distraction that doesn’t take me out of work mode. Deleting old emails that are clogging up my email space.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:08 pm Any timed tasks you can do? If you set a timer, would you obey it?
AwkwardTurtle2.0* January 18, 2019 at 5:46 pm Oddly enough, I’ve found having something like sports on TV helps… I look at it, but I’m not interested in it enough to get fully distracted and unlike something on my phone/computer, it doesn’t take me down a rabbit hole.
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 5:04 pm Would you uproot your life to move all the way across the country to one of the most expensive cities in the US, for a job and company you’re not 100% sure about? What I’m going through: a very quick timeline from application (posted online 11 days ago) -> interviews (7 and 3 days ago) -> job offer today. Why I hesitate: have never seen the office in-person (all interviews were conducted by Skype), mixed reviews on Glassdoor about working here, high turnover for mid and junior level employees (staying 1-2 years), salary is okay but lower pay than my last position (would struggle slightly and may make little to no savings), would take this job knowing I likely would want to stay 1-2 years due to wanting to do other things in life but this would perpetuate my streak of job hopping every 2-2.5 years
Holly* January 18, 2019 at 5:07 pm I find it interesting that you didn’t list exactly why you wanted to do this. Why did you apply to work in the different city in the first place? The easy answer is definitely no do not do this unless you have specific reasons why you actually *do* want to do this. Right now your list is only cons, no pros!
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 5:16 pm Sorry, that would’ve been helpful to put upfront :) I applied to a temporary semester-long with this company thinking it’d be cool to work there for a few months to get some more experience on my resume and build connections, but then go do a working holiday abroad. That is my “other stuff” I want to do in a few years before I hit the age limit. I interviewed and the HR rep recommended me to interview for this position that I discussed in the original comment. I never seriously considered a move out to this area before. Pros: it’s adjacent to the career path I started building and could open the door to other opportunities later if I want to deviate paths, especially the geographic advantage and making connections through the job; the job itself is something I am interested in and could do well
RandomusernamebecauseIwasboredwiththelastone* January 18, 2019 at 5:10 pm Tough call. Can you get more sure? Visit the city and office to meet people in person? Negotiate for higher pay? Something else? I guess you are not coming across as super excited by this offer, but at the end of the day, what is your gut telling you?
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 5:19 pm It’s a non-profit and their salary is in the range I put down. I probably shot myself in the foot there by putting down a REALISTIC expectation for a non-profit salary, even if it was a pay cut – oops. I asked if there’s any flexibility in the salary. They may be able to bump it up by $1,000 but no promises. No relocation assistance is offered. Any visits on my own before accepting would be on my own dime. It would be exciting to live in this city without a doubt, especially as a young-ish professional. If I knew more about what it would be like to work at this office, I think I’d feel more excited. Instead I feel stressed!
Catsaber* January 18, 2019 at 5:14 pm I don’t think I’d accept a job like that even if I didn’t have to uproot my life to move. What about this particular job interests you? I would need for the job to pay REALLY well (since I’m the primary breadwinner) AND have good career progression. So far this really just sounds like a “meh” job.
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 5:25 pm Pros: it’s adjacent to the career path I started building and could open the door to other opportunities later if I want to deviate paths, but doesn’t take me completely out of the field I started working in. I was working in higher education before for 2.5 years and this would be working with other people in universities. There’s a geographic advantage being so close to other major cities for possible job-searching down the road if I want to stay on this side of the country, as well as making connections through the job. The job itself is something I am interested in and feel I could do well, but despite all of this I still think I wouldn’t want to stay longer than 2.5 years if I really push the time.
Asenath* January 18, 2019 at 5:15 pm Probably not, unless I had additional reasons for relocating. Those could be personal (desire for change, family or friends near New City etc) or professional (current city is economically moribund, new city is centre of the industry so there are more options, etc). But if the only attraction is a job with red flags, no.
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 6:52 pm I’m not particularly tied to where I am now which is California – one of the most expensive places to live anyway, but for the moment I’m at home during my job search. (Not bringing in money but also not spending.) I always love change and would like to live in a major city like this one would be in, but I’m trying to be realistic that I don’t have in-demand skills or specialized knowledge for well-paying positions needed to live more comfortably in these areas. I have always predicted I would relocate again because I have more of that flexibility, but I don’t feel drawn to a particular geographic area for relocation.
MissDisplaced* January 18, 2019 at 5:28 pm No, probably not. Unless there were significant reasons for wanting to move to or live in that city. It’s quite different if you have friends or family there if the job isn’t super high paid.
JNM* January 18, 2019 at 5:31 pm I have some friends living out there but not close friends. I would be starting all over again for building friendships and relationships. It’s a city of transplants so I don’t think it would be difficult, but still more work to do in my personal life.
VM* January 18, 2019 at 9:52 pm I did something similar, though I was wanting to relocate to a different area. I didn’t accept the job until I had visited the city and the office. We’ve had other people who have been hired for other positions do exactly the same thing (some accepted and others didn’t). I’m happy with the decision I made. I figured that even if the job wasn’t right long term, I could move on to a different employer in the same area.
JNM* January 20, 2019 at 1:35 am That’s what I’m thinking to re: moving on if it’s not the right fit, however I don’t know if geographically this is an area I’d want to be in long term. Did you relocate to the area you wanted, or it was a new area for you (thus you paid a visit before deciding)?
Honeygrim* January 18, 2019 at 5:13 pm My boss recently retired, and I am covering his responsibilities as well as my own until the position is filled (higher education). Our department has several staff who have various roles that have not really changed for quite a while. However, lately it seems like many of them can’t do any task without constantly coming to me for… reassurance? Permission? I’m not sure. Sometimes there are questions, or they’re having a problem that I need to solve. But otherwise it’s just a running report on what they’re doing. This is a new “quirk,” though at least one person has had problems doing this before. But I thought we settled that person’s anxiety and they’d stopped, until recently. I’ve explained to my staff that I trust them to do their jobs, and that I need them to take the lead on their responsibilities so that I can get the stuff done that only I can do. We had this conversation with my (former) boss a couple of years ago. And recently I talked to them about how I need their help to keep things running so I can have time to work on my new responsibilities. And yet I’m still pulled into this employee-instigated micromanagement. In addition I’m beginning to see that a couple of people who I thought were handling their work okay actually aren’t, but were sort of covering up all as not to “bother” me. So I have both sides of the coin happening–too much info from some people and not enough from others. Help! I plan to meet with them next week, and I need some suggestions for how to word things so I don’t just start yelling (joking, though I was pushed closer to obvious annoyance today than I’d like). I’m assuming this is somehow related to my boss’s retirement, so I don’t want to upset or stress anyone out more. But I feel like I’m losing my mind.
MsM* January 18, 2019 at 5:30 pm It sounds like it’s probably best to just address your suspicions directly: “Look, I know people may be feeling a little uncertain of where things are headed with Boss gone. But the point of me serving as interim head is to keep things functioning until the new boss takes charge. I’m not here to set a new vision or implement new systems unless they’re absolutely necessary – and if they are, we will have that conversation. Otherwise, if it’s been working fine, and it didn’t need Old Boss’s sign-off before, I’d rather you all just keep on doing it than wait for my approval.”
TechWorker* January 18, 2019 at 7:39 pm I’d be tempted to maybe have these conversations one on one (assuming there’s not so many of them that would be impossible). That way you can tailor what you say to whether they’re someone who needs to check in more or check in less. For those checking in too often, can you ask them to raise questions over email or instant message rather than in person? This has a couple of benefits: 1) people who are being a bit lazy and just haven’t looked it up might find their own answers, 2) you can batch up responses so that you ca focus on something and then respond to all the queries in one go rather than having to constantly context switch. I don’t know the context of whether everyone has completely different roles but if you have some very underconfident/newer people and some more experienced would it be possible to set up some sort of mentoring system so the first go-to isn’t you? Or encourage people to ask a team alias or chatroom first? (That way if only you know the answer you can ofc respond but someone else may chip in first). I need to take some of my own advice here….! :D I feel your pain. Sometimes I get updates where my inner reaction is ‘that’s nice dear’ – though to be fair not to the point where I’ve explicitly said ‘you don’t need to update me on this sort of thing’ so this is an option.
I'm in a similar situation* January 18, 2019 at 7:56 pm It depends on if you are a candidate to succeed the retired boss. If you are not applying for a promotion into that job, but only trying to keep everything running until your new boss is selected, I think you can word things the way you do in the second and 3rd paragraphs of your post. “We’ve worked together long enough to understand what we’re supposed to be doing, and while I appreciate that you’re keeping me in the loop, you don’t need to bring be updates and checklists and status reports on all of the excellent work you’re continuing to do. Just let me know if you run across a problem you need my help solving.” A group meeting is not the right setting to point out to a couple of your co-workers that they need to be more proactive about giving you a heads-up when they don’t want to bother your with their issues. You do need to find a private setting to encourage them to alert you when they are encountering challenges to satisfactory progress on meeting standards. On the other hand, if you ARE applying for the retired boss’s job, then a bossier approach will help you get the promotion. If you have time to skim any of the “First 90 Days” books, there’s a lot of good advice there. Good luck!
Honeygrim* January 18, 2019 at 8:13 pm Good points. I’m fairly certain I don’t want the job permanently (mainly because of the kinds of political/administrative issues the person in that role has to deal with on a daily basis), so your suggestions make sense. I didn’t mean to imply I was going to use the group meeting to call out anyone, but rather I was going to reiterate that I need their help so I can try to keep up with my added responsibilities. I’ve been supervising them for a while, so my relationship with them isn’t new. But I think having a missing person, especially the big boss, is making things weird for all of us.
hate_useless_meetings* January 18, 2019 at 5:17 pm I have a new job. My task is to, avoiding going into too much detail, find out the source of very complex problems. Every problem requires at least several hours of analysis, analyzing different scenarios and choosing the most probable cause. Then several h more of deciding how to present the results in a way that is both accurate and understandable to “normal people”. It seems however that the culture in the department is very meeting-based. Already now I spend 90% of my work time in meetings. During these meetings people mainly repeat what the problem is and speculate about possible causes. The meetings consist of repetitions of the same facts. They can take hours. The problem is, there are hundreds of possible causes. Of course, I’m new and in some time I should be able to understand the situation better and make slightly better speculations on the causes, but in my field, these speculations won’t ever replace thorough analyses. It’s just not a field where you can “listen to your guts”. Also, I’m more of an introvert and I find it difficult to speculate about causes knowing my statements can – and probably will – be false. There are also meetings discussing the results of analyses, but they also lack a fact-based discussion. The only fair way to undermine the results would be to take the data and check the way it got analyzed or analyze it again. This would be a huge amount of work and is undoable during a meeting. The data should definitely be checked to secure quality but due to the sheer number of meetings there’s no time for a solid review. Is there a way to work better under these conditions?
LCL* January 18, 2019 at 5:23 pm Nicely say to your boss (someone else can help with the phrasing here) ‘my job is technical analysis. To do that, I need to be at a workstation, with a dual monitor setup, a phone, and access to the company network. It doesn’t have to be my office, but I can’t get anything done in this conference room. I will send you an email summary every morning/evening/couple of days/week on what I have found to date.’
yeine* January 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm Got a raise yesterday! 9%! My job pays the bills but it’s just, Eh, so I was thinking of moving but …. like many employees, i am motivated strongly by salary increases.
Robin* January 18, 2019 at 6:11 pm My boss had me fill out PO’s for an event. But she went against the pre-discussed arrangement by the marketing director. When it was time for the MD to sign the one of the PO’s the MD denied signing it. When I let my boss know she had me re-do everything. When it was her fault. Then my boss insisted we go above what is allowed for the caterer instead of cutting two menu items and staying under budget. The boss cut corners and when I asked what’s plan B when it gets denied, the response was “IT WONT”. And then had me sign the memo/request to the CFO for my funds. The last sentence on the MEMO was a total lie. But my title is listed on the memo as well as hers. For all the PO’s I’ve done what I was told. But I feel sick and don’t want to work for someone who do this. The boss seems irritated with me already bc I fought this every step of the way, as much as I could without getting fired. I don’t know what to do. Tuesday next week is going to be a nightmare. I have all this paperwork to do for an event that isn’t even my responsibility. But the boss is having me to do so they can take credit for it. Which is fine when the shit hits the fan. But I’m worried about my career. I don’t m is how often stuff like this happens?
Ismis* January 19, 2019 at 5:04 am I don’t have any specific advice but deep breaths and try not to stress. Chances are it’s not the first time your boss has tried to pull something like this and the MD will know it’s not down to you. After Tuesday, you will feel better and can think more clearly about how to handle it the next time, or plan an exit strategy.
Kathenus* January 19, 2019 at 9:20 am Focus on what’s needed to succeed in the job and accomplishing her responsibilities, not the reason for her not achieving it. So don’t frame this as you can’t be out for child care as much, instead set clear expectations for what she has to accomplish in her job – certain hours if it’s a butts in seats job, work product, achieving certain goals by the deadline, etc. Then make it clear that achieving these things is important for her to be able to succeed in this job. If you can offer flexibility of timing, etc., that’s great and certainly offer it. But at the end of the day make sure she knows what she needs to achieve to succeed in the job and that you’ll offer her the support you can, but that she needs to find a way to meet these metrics.
Kathenus* January 19, 2019 at 9:39 am Sorry, posted this to the wrong question by mistake so have added it to the right question now. Disregard.
Sheldon Cooper* January 18, 2019 at 7:14 pm Anyone have any advice on how to best address someone that’s had numerous child care related absences (at least once, usually twice, per week of coming in late, leaving early or being home)? It’s effecting her performance, as well as others that have to cover for her. Each episode is fine on its merits, but it’s too much when looking at it in total.
Penguin2* January 18, 2019 at 7:34 pm Why can’t you tell her just what you wrote? The issue is that she can’t be relied on consistently to get the work done bc she’s not ever there. Once in a while is ok, but consistent issues is not going to work. Be straightforward and be honest. Communicate the impact it has on the team and the workload, otherwise its a “but I get all my work done so what’s the issue?” issue.
Sheldon Cooper* January 18, 2019 at 7:42 pm I’m probably over thinking it. I can picture her reaction being, “I can’t help my kids getting sick!”
Namey McNameface* January 19, 2019 at 5:22 am This is the language/tone I used when I had to address this. “I understand. I have kids too, and it’s really hard. If I could give you unlimited time off without your absence having any negative effect on anybody else, believe me – I would. But unfortunately, your absence *is* causing problems for the team. Every time you’re away someone else has to cover for your shift. It means other people are cancelling their own plans last minute. Of course we all do that for each other occasionally. But when this happens X times in Z weeks, it can understandably cause frustration and resentment. It also means other people are pulling in overtime hours and that’s a health and safety concern for me.” You need to be polite but direct. You’re not there to discuss her child care/her kid’s health, but to address her frequent absence and the effect his has on other people at work. Whether someone is away frequently due to child care, illness, studies, laziness, a second job, relationship drama, etc is not your business. But as a manager your responsibility is not toward this one person; but for the overall health of the organisation.
WellRed* January 18, 2019 at 8:30 pm How long has this been going on? Is it very recent and maybe just a bad time?
Sheldon Cooper* January 18, 2019 at 8:54 pm Newish employee, been around a few months. With the exception of a couple weeks at the beginning, it’s been a thing.
Kathenus* January 19, 2019 at 9:37 am Sorry, posted this to the wrong question by mistake: Focus on what’s needed to succeed in the job and accomplishing her responsibilities, not the reason for her not achieving it. So don’t frame this as you can’t be out for child care as much, instead set clear expectations for what she has to accomplish in her job – certain hours if it’s a butts in seats job, work product, achieving certain goals by the deadline, etc. Then make it clear that achieving these things is important for her to be able to succeed in this job. If you can offer flexibility of timing, etc., that’s great and certainly offer it. But at the end of the day make sure she knows what she needs to achieve to succeed in the job and that you’ll offer her the support you can, but that she needs to find a way to meet these metrics.
Skeptical about academia* January 18, 2019 at 7:15 pm I am a PhD student in the humanities (due to take my qualifying exams soon!) who is gradually realizing that the typical faculty career track, in addition to being hard to break into, may not be for me. I love working with students, and I really enjoyed the classes and more contained research I did for my MA. But now that I am out of coursework, the long, lonely hours of research and attempting to structure massive projects for myself are frankly very stressful. I think that I would do better in fields with more structure–i.e., some kind of set hours, and projects that are not quite on the scale of writing a dissertation! I like seeing more incremental progress and impacts. I would also like a decent portion of my day-to-day work to involve some human interaction. I’m wondering if anyone has tips on how to begin investigating alternate career paths more seriously? I’m currently undecided on whether I want to stick it out for the dissertation or leave ABD. Would having a PhD negatively impact my job prospects outside of academia? Is there a clearer path towards, say, student affairs or other alt-ac positions? Any particular books/websites/other resources you can recommend?
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 9:09 pm If you love students, maybe you’d be well suited to be a high school teacher in a private school? Public schools I think usually require certain certifications, but private schools would hire someone with a MA in a topic, and teaching experience is a big plus, but not usually a requirement. My advice would be to start looking for jobs NOW. There are plenty of academic-adjacent jobs you’d probably be well-qualified for. Start browsing the sites of major universities near your or near places you’d be willing to move to. Look at the job duties and ask yourself if you think you’d enjoy doing that job. See if anything excites you. My best advice–don’t start down a “path” when you don’t have a good idea about what you’d like to find at the end. Meaning, don’t pursue more qualifications just to “do something with students.” Find actual jobs you want to do, look at the gap between what your current qualifications are and what you’d need to be a good candidate for those jobs, and put your energy towards those qualifications. If a PhD isn’t included in those qualifications….well, maybe it isn’t worth your time to do something you seem to be dreading.
julian* January 18, 2019 at 8:31 pm Oh bummer, I have a question that I would have preferred to ask here, but I submitted it as an email this week :/ How often do these open threads happen? I don’t follow the site closely.
Triplestep* January 19, 2019 at 10:41 am But note at the top where Alison asks that you not submit questions on Fridays that you’ve already e-mailed her as she may be getting ready to answer it.
buttrue???* January 19, 2019 at 11:37 am But after of weeks you can email her and ask if you can post this on a Friday. There are many reasons why she can’t get to a question quickly.
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 8:57 pm I have some really petty work drama going on at work that is just so 5th grade I can’t believe it. So, I’m friends with one woman, Tulip. Tulip doesn’t get along well with her coworkers in her department, and always thinks that they are talking sh** about her behind her back. I don’t actually know to what extent it is true or not, but it is not completely false. Tulip came up with an idea to make a small change to something that she thinks will improve the overall vibe of getting along in her department. She proposed the change to Rose, who agreed without a hint of hesitation (I heard the conversation myself). Tulip then took the idea to her boss, who pushed back a bit but eventually said OK. Tulip was annoyed that her boss wasn’t thrilled, but is glad about the change and thinks it will help. Rose took me aside today and said “Just so you know, I don’t actually want to make the change that Tulip wants. I have no idea even why she wants to do that.” Now, I personally know that Tulip wants the change because she specifically doesn’t get along with Lilac (as well as Rose, but more so Lilac), and thinks that everyone knows that this is the reason. But I just said “I’d rather stay out of it” to Rose, who nodded knowingly. Rose knows I’m friends with Tulip. Anyway, I think that Rose is going to cheerily go along with the change, but then secretly bitch about it with Lilac and their boss. I think that Tulip is stepping into a minefield here, thinking she is going to make things better for herself. I really don’t want to get involved–Rose didn’t tell me not to tell Tulip that she didn’t want the change, but if she wanted to express that, she could just tell Tulip. I think it was implied that I shouldn’t tell Tulip what Rose said. I don’t want to be seen as a gossip, putting my nose in business that has nothing to do with me. I also don’t want to see Tulip in a worse position than she is already in. Do I tell Tulip that Rose is only pretending to agree to the change? Tulip and I are outside-of-work friends, whereas Rose and I are only at-work friends. And Tulip is acting in good faith (even if the change is kind of petty, and I do think that Tulip overblows Rose and Lilac’s behavior and looks for negativity everywhere) whereas Rose is not. On the other hand, this is not really any of my business and I only know about it because for some reason, everyone likes to tell me everything all the time!
Holly* January 18, 2019 at 9:04 pm Stay out of the direct web of Tulip/Rose/Lilac – don’t say what Rose told you, as it sounds like you reaaaally don’t want to be involved with this. That said, I think you do have standing to go to your boss -if you share the same one – and say that there’s a lot of pettiness that is distracting to you and affecting your work (if you find that it is).
Jane* January 18, 2019 at 9:27 pm Luckily, we do not share the same boss, and actually, the boss in this situation participates (or at least Tulip say/feels like she participates) in all the pettiness and Tulip-bashing. And luckily, these delicate flowers do not have anything to do with any of my work in any way. Our only connection is that our departments sit right next to each other in the cube farm. Hence my wanting to keep peace with all of them.
blaise zamboni* January 18, 2019 at 11:56 pm My company continues to disappoint me in boring, trivial ways. They finally implemented my state’s sick leave policy, which, yay. But several large cities in my state have more generous laws than the state policy. My office is in Teapots County while the other dozen offices in the region are in Teapots City proper. We are literally the sole office that is not in Teapots City, and the law in Teapots City gives double the sick leave. I predicted that my company would decide that our 10-person office would be classified differently, and I was depressingly right. Cutting costs wherever possible y’all!
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 1:03 am First time posting here – I’m in a bit of a bind at work and I’m hoping people might have a way for me to see it in a different perspective to help me tolerate it. Been in my job about 2 years. Really like it and like my co-workers and boss. Last May, my co-worker (in the same role as I am) was let go. There were valid reasons. After it happened, my boss said that I would be a part of the hiring of a new person. Months pass, no movement on the replacement. I ask about it periodically and various excuses are given, etc. But I am still told I will be involved when the hiring happens. Suddenly, in Dec., it becomes the #1 priority to fill this position. My boss tells me there is a good candidate and asks me who did I interview with as a candidate? (I was hired before she was). I tell her and then ask if she can forward the resume to me. “Why? You’re not interviewing the candidate” What?! What about I will be involved. Basically, she says that it’s ‘confusing’ and ‘awkward’ to candidates to be interviewed by peers. I say, respectfully, I disagree. I’ve been involved in interviewing candidates in every one of my jobs, either as a peer or supervisor. She says she has had bad experiences with peer interviews and that’s that. I was frustrated but I knew it was not the right time to continue the conversation because I might have said something I didn’t want to. A few days later was my annual review. It went well. My boss even said, she handled the interview thing wrong and she apologized. The candidate turned out to be a bad fit, so no big loss. I accept her apology and say that I understand her concerns and her bad experiences, but I don’t have those same experiences and I think that perhaps we can find a way that works for both of us. I suggested that I help screen resumes and /or do phone screening interviews on other candidates. She didn’t want that but she agrees to let me have lunch with the candidate. I’m not sure why the presence of food makes it less of an interview, but lunch is fine with me. A few days later, our HR rep comes to my desk and says, “in about 15-20 min, I am going to bring candidate x by to introduce you” What?! I had no idea there was a candidate being interviewed. I called my boss (who was working in another office that day) and asked her about this. She can’t figure out why I am frustrated. I said I knew nothing about this candidate and I thought we agreed that I could meet the candidates for lunch. She said she can’t believe I am questioning her. She had to be at the other location today so couldn’t be there for lunch with me and the candidate. I said, I didn’t think you had to come to the lunch. That wasn’t part of the agreement, but apparently it was in her mind. I’m furious at this point, but there’s nothing I can do. She says when HR brings the candidate by to introduce me, I can ask any questions I have then. I said, no. First, I have not seen a resume and know nothing about the person. Second, it would be really awkward to be interviewing someone in the hallway while others are around. We end the call because it is clear she will not budge. HR introduces me to candidate. I say hi, nice to meet you. That’s all. They offer him the job and he accepts. First day is this coming Monday. So, now the tough part for me – I cannot dissociate the way the interview situation was handled from the (soon to be) new guy. It’s not his fault, I know. But, in my mind, just thinking of him brings all this crap up. I am in charge of his training because I am the only person in this role and my boss has no idea about the day-to-day duties. It would be unprofessional to not train him well. Plus, it would come back to haunt me. I also know that when I do a good job, my boss will take all the credit. But I do not have a poker face and I am going to have a hard time pretending to be happy about this. I know it’s not really logical, but that’s how it is. What I learned in all this is that I cannot trust my boss. I don’t think I am ready to leave over it, but I am having a hard time seeing how I can get through training a new person without seeming like I blame him for my boss’ bad behavior; but I also don’t see how I get through this without having to swallow all my anger. Appreciate any feedback. Thanks for reading!
Ismis* January 19, 2019 at 5:49 am My reading of this is that your boss offered lunch with the candidate more so that you would get a read on them e.g. if they are someone that you would get on with, if they seemed approachable, if you had any concerns about them etc. Your idea of how it would work was more along professional lines – that you would see the resume, prepare questions about their work history, and so on. Is it possible that you both had different ideas in the initial discussion about what “involved in the hiring process” meant? Whether it was your boss changing their mind or down to a misunderstanding, I understand your frustration (from experience, believe me!) but being furious seems like an overreaction to this situation. You say that you like your boss but further down, that your boss will take all the credit if you do a good job, so it sounds to me like your boss is just a bit of an asshole in general and you’re pointing your anger in the wrong direction. Maybe it’s time to start looking around?
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 11:09 am Thanks. It’s clear we had different thoughts on what being involved in the process meant. But in the end, I was not involved at all. I suspect she told me what she thought I wanted to hear, and didn’t expect I’d ask her to follow through. I would have been fine with a lunch to get a read on the candidate but it didn’t happen. So I have no idea what this person will be like
The Other Dawn* January 19, 2019 at 6:28 am I think this is a big overreaction. I don’t see anything in your post as a reason to not trust your boss, and I get the feeling you see her as the adversary. If this situation causes you this much frustration, then maybe this job isn’t the right fit. When your boss mentioned you being a part of the hiring process, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be interviewing candidates. It’s more that she probably wants your input on the resume, their skill set, or wants to know your gut feeling after you meet them. I’ve asked my direct reports the same thing. I interview the candidate since I’m the one they’ll report to, but I do often bring my senior person in for a few minutes to talk about the department, workflow, and just chat a bit.
Triplestep* January 19, 2019 at 10:19 am When your boss mentioned you being a part of the hiring process, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be interviewing candidates. This. You misinterpreted what “being part of the hiring process” meant. Typically for peers, if they let you meet candidates at all, it’s part of a later round of interviews. This would be after they’ve been screened by a recruiter, and interviewed by the hiring manager. There is no reason for your manager to waste your time with someone they already know they would not hire; if you had a vastly different opinion of that person, it would not influence your hiring manager. Peer interviews are to help choose between two equally good candidates, identify big (not small) red flags such as “I remember this person from a previous job and he was fired!” If your manager handled anything poorly here, it was that she did not immediately explain the above to you when you made it clear to her that you thought you’d be interviewing the candidate. It sounds like the two of you went back and forth over that much longer than was needed – she should have nipped this in the bud with a gentle explanation to you. And honestly, I’m not sure why you pushed back so hard on this; what would the next step have been? If you have to fight for your right to interview a candidate, it’s not likely they are going to value/listen to any opinion you form from the interview, right?
Triplestep* January 19, 2019 at 10:37 am One other thing: I was once part of the hiring process for a peer in a more involved way than usual. My manager gave me resumes she had been given by the recruiter, and I helped her figure out which candidates to interview. There was one resume that was a MESS. It lacked format, had many fonts, multiple spelling errors, and when I looked at the document properties, it had been made on her former work computer, probably by someone else. I reported this to my manger who told me, no – that was just the format that popped out of the recruiter’s program (no – it was a word doc) and that I shouldn’t worry about it. She interviewed the candidate who turned out to be as much of a mess as her resume. (We got to interview her as well, which is how I know.) We interviewed a second candidate, who I was very opposed to hiring because I felt she lacked the technical skills to do the same work I did, and moreover, she would not shut up. She talked way too much for an interview, felt compelled to fill every silence, and provided stupid examples. I did not tell my boss how vehemently opposed to rehiring her I was (I figured that could come back to bite me) but I did express reservations, as did others. She got hired. She turned out to be one of the best co-workers I’ve ever had – learned quickly, never had a harsh word for anyone, and apparently can’t stop talking only when she’s nervous. I only saw that run-on talking twice more. The skill gap turned out not to be a problem because a re-org two months after her hire gave us different responsibilities. So things can obviously work out quite differently than you expect no matter how involved you are in the hiring process, no matter what opinions you form of a candidate, and whether or not you get to interview them.
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 11:30 am Thanks for feedback. It’s possible this person will turn out to be great and I really hope that’s the case. But the unknown part is hard
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 11:36 am I see what you are saying. I agree that my boss should have been more clear on what she meant, especially the first time this came up. I think she doesn’t want to say no to things or thinks it’s better to tell people what she thinks they want to hear. After the first time this was an issue, we talked and I thought we came to a resolution that we both were happy with. Then she reneged on that. It would have been better if she just said, no you’re not involved. End of story. I won’t have liked that decision but at least it would have been clear and would have saved frustration
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 11:12 am Thanks. Perhaps furious was an overstatement. I understand what you say about the chat at the end of an interview but again that didn’t happen. Even if we had different ideas about what being involved would mean, I was not involved at all.
Kathenus* January 19, 2019 at 9:32 am In my department the peers are involved in the interview process, but they do not get the candidate’s resumes. The goals of this part of the interview process are to allow the peers to meet the candidate – and vice versa – to get an quick sense of cultural fit. And for the candidate to get to hear from the peers some information about the work and work environment – the peer meetings are strictly manager-free – so that they feel comfortable talking openly. Then after all candidates have been interviewed, the managers meet with the peer teams to get their feedback on each candidate to add to our information for the decision process. So agree that you and your boss aren’t on the same page, which is a communication issue. But I don’t think it’s out of line what your boss did and didn’t want to do – the problem was the disconnect in expectations and poor communication. When your boss said you’d be involved in hiring the replacement you thought that meant in a more official way, and she meant in a more informal way – no one is right or wrong, just having different assumptions that weren’t communicated which led to conflict. I don’t know the magic solution to being able to swallow this when working with new coworker, but maybe focus on ‘yay, there’s help now’ versus ‘this person is a symbol of my anger at this process’. Also, maybe once the emotions have died down could you sit with boss and talk out the issue and let her know that the process frustrated you because you thought xx and yy – and then find out her thoughts on this and at least clear the air to have it not lingering and affecting your relationship and the way you feel about work right now?
First-time poster* January 19, 2019 at 11:24 am Thanks. My previous experiences have been more like what you describe (but we get resumes) because often with peers candidates will answer or react differently than in interviews with management. I agree that there isn’t a right or wrong way to interview. I guess my frustration is at my boss’ poor handling of the situation because it was clear we had different expectations. We talked it out and I believe we came to a compromise. Then she changed her mind or didn’t follow through in her commitment a second time, leaving me frustrated again. I do think I need to clear the air with her again but will need to do so when I am not feeling so raw about this. I am trying to see this as ‘yay there is help’ but it is hard for me to do so, especially since I don’t know anything about the person. This also makes it hard to plan for training since we are a scientific/technical company and I don’t know how much he knows or doesn’t know. Thank you for your feedback
Ann O.* January 19, 2019 at 3:27 pm I am utterly perplexed as to your expectations here. I understand this is a co-worker and that many places do have peer interviews (and personally agree that peer interviews are useful). But everywhere I’m worked, the hiring manager sets the structure. A co-worker doesn’t simply decide they’re going to be reviewing resumes, conducting interviews, and having lunches. For whatever reason, your boss didn’t want you to be involved in the interviewing process. That’s your boss’s perogative. The only bad behavior I’m seeing is from you and your inability to accept the clear “no”s you were given.
First-time poster* January 20, 2019 at 8:59 pm Thanks for your feedback. I agree the hiring manager sets the structure. My expectations were based on what I was told. After I posted here and read some of the feedback, I really thought back on it to make sure I wasn’t mis-remembering what was said. I even went back and found several emails from my boss that said I would interview candidates, so respectfully, I don’t think it was bad behavior on my part. It is clear that there is a discrepancy with what my boss said and wrote in emails and what actually happened. But that’s something I will need to address with her
Jane* January 19, 2019 at 4:34 pm This really seems like an issue of a misunderstanding between you and your boss, more than any malice or betrayal. It is perfectly normal for peers to not be involved at all in an interview process, and it seems that at no point was your boss specific about what she mean by your being “involved.” You took that as “being one of the decision makers,” but your boss was probably thinking more along the lines of “Maybe I’ll ask OP’s opinion at some point,” and since this was not made clear on either end, I can understand why your boss was taken aback when you expressed frustration (and probably anger). Maybe if you can reframe as “I misunderstood what my role was” rather than “my boss disrespected me and forced this man on me,” it will be easier for you to move forward. I don’t think your boss at any time had any obligation to include you, even if you understood you were going to be included. Would you have been as angry if your boss had never mentioned your being involved? Maybe pretend she never said that. She might have even forgotten herself. Plenty of places don’t ask for peer input (my current workplace doesn’t) so I don’t think it is a sign of disrespect that you weren’t asked for input.
First-time poster* January 20, 2019 at 9:08 pm Thanks for the feedback. I do think that when we talked about it after candidate 1 was interviewed that we cleared the air. I said when she said I would be involved, I presumed that meant with an interview. She said she was sorry she wasn’t clearer because she didn’t think an interview was appropriate. That’s when we compromised on an informal meeting at lunch. But then that didn’t happen with candidate 2 (soon to be new co-worker) so I am not sure what changed. I know I was frustrated when I spoke to her but I made a point not to be angry when talking to her. I suppose I might not have done a good a job at that or she might have thought I was angry anyway, but I don’t think I was outwardly angry. I suppose my real issue is with her not honoring what she said. If she had not said anything to begin with, it would be a different story.
Susan K* January 19, 2019 at 7:07 pm I think you are taking this more personally than warranted. First of all, in my experience, it’s not very common for peers to be involved in the interview and hiring process. I have only had a couple of interviews where peers were included on an interview panel (and those were for interviews that were a full day with multiple panels). Other than that, the most contact I have had with peers at an interview was meeting the peers (“Hi, I’m Susan. Nice to meet you!”). Where I work now, peers are not involved in the hiring process in any way — not even seeing the names of the candidates or meeting them. The interviews are conducted in a different building from where we work. Also, you started by saying that you like your boss, so I’m surprised that you would conclude that your boss was being malicious. My read of this is that you misunderstood what your boss wanted your role to be, and/or that your boss changed her mind or plans and didn’t tell you, probably because she had a lot going on and/or didn’t know that this was so important to you. It looks to me like there was some amount of rushing and disorganization to the situation (since it suddenly became urgent to fill the position and your boss got unexpectedly called to a different location on the day of the interview) and your boss had to change some things on the fly. It doesn’t seem like something that warrants losing a good relationship with a boss you actually like. Finally, please do not hold this against the new person! This is in no way his fault, and it is hard enough to start at a new job even without someone who is biased against you for something outside of your control. Not only for his sake, but for yours, you should treat him the same as you would have treated a candidate you had personally hand-picked (and don’t forget, even if you had been in on the whole process as you had wanted, maybe you would have thought this guy was awesome and wanted to hire him, too). If you go about training him with a bad attitude, it will only make you look bad.
First-time poster* January 20, 2019 at 9:12 pm Thanks. I totally agree that it would be very bad to hold it against the new person. Reading the feedback here definitely helped me see things differently. I know it has nothing to do with him and I really do hope that he is a good fit for the role. I have been working on training guides and activities, so I prepared with a lot of material to review. I do want this to go well
CM* January 19, 2019 at 10:56 pm I get why you’re pissed off. Ideally what would have happened is that, when your boss was all like, “Why? You’re not interviewing the candidate,” you would have calmly and serenely said, “Oh? I’m surprised by that because, when we talked about it before, I thought that was how I would be involved in the interview process. What kind of involvement were you thinking I’d have?” like people always practice and roleplay ahead of time. In real life, it’s almost IMPOSSIBLY HARD to do that when you’re blindsided by something that makes you feel threatened and slighted. I get that. And I see how the two of you dug yourself into a hole on this one. I think it might be worthwhile to take a few hours and think or write about what your relationship is like with your boss generally and whether you feel you have the respect you deserve or the status you think you ought to have earned in exchange for what you’ve put into the job. My suspicion is that there’s some other kind of resentment bubbling under the surface of this conflict and, if you can identify what it is, you might be able to come up with ways to resolve it that will bring you some peace. Please note, when I say resentment, that’s not a judgement. Sometimes we have very good reasons to resent people. The point is not to stop feeling resentful because resentment is bad. The point is to LISTEN TO resentment and let it help you figure out what you don’t like about this situation. I think right now you’re in a position where you don’t have any place to put the resentment except your new coworker, even though you know it’s not his fault at all that any of this happened. So figuring out the correct target for the resentment and trying to resolve that situation, whatever it is, might solve that problem.
First-time poster* January 20, 2019 at 9:15 pm Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. I definitely think the writing about it would help. I’m going to do that. I appreciate the suggestion!
Namey McNameface* January 19, 2019 at 6:00 am We’ve been making extra accommodations for “Cindy” at work due to personal circumstances. She can only work during a very narrow band of times/days – which doesn’t suit the business – but I have put her into those hours to help her out. It was only meant to be a short term arrangement but it’s morphed into weeks and now months. Last week we had someone else cancel their shift because of an emergency. I called Cindy, who was already working, and asked her to please stay behind work just one more hour. She said “Oh but I can’t, I’m meeting my friend.” I would understand if she truly couldn’t work overtime because her kid was seriously sick or something. But after all the months of effort we put into making her schedule work for her, I can’t believe she was so cavalier about declining over time. It seems grossly unfair she’s not being considerate of business needs; when we’ve gone out of our way to look after her. Am I right to be pissed about this? Knowing her, if I try to address this issue she will get upset and say “I know I’m causing problems for everyone. I should just leave. My husband and I are so worried about our mortgage payments we might lose our home. But I don’t want to cause trouble for you. Blah blah blah…”
The Other Dawn* January 19, 2019 at 6:14 am I’d be annoyed, too. It feels like you’re bending over backwards for her and she doesn’t appreciate it. But she had plans after work. Doesn’t really matter what the plans are. The bigger question, in my mind, is why is this arrangement still going on when it doesn’t suit the business? I can see doing it short term to help her out, but why has it gone on so long? I think a sit-down is in order to find out how you can get her back to working a schedule that suits the business’s needs. Tell her this is what you/the business needs and this is the job. If the job as it is doesn’t suit HER, then she needs to do whatever she has to in order to make ends meet. Don’t let her hold you hostage.
Namey McNameface* January 19, 2019 at 6:41 am That particular issue is already resolved as the personal circumstance has changed and she is back to her normal hours by a specific date. I don’t know if I agree with “doesn’t really matter what the plans are.” It seems like there is no sense of give and take with regards to flexibility of hours. I would be understanding if it was something urgent or unavoidable….but if she simply does not want to be inconvenienced that’s pretty selfish considering this was the only time in months I asked her to help me out, and in all other shifts I accommodated her needs. I am just pissed.
irene adler* January 19, 2019 at 8:30 am Don’t blame you. Cindy won’t give 1 hour when the business has bent over backwards for her. I work at a small business (less than 20 people) and they’ve allowed a couple of “Cindy’s” to continue a less than 40 hour work week – and still collect 40 hours pay. And at no loss of PTO either. This has been the case for years. Speaking as a co-worker, this is hard to watch. How do I know they collect full pay and all their PTO? Well, one scans his income tax forms every year on our company copier. So all can view it. So I see his W-2. He makes a lot more than I do. He works 7 hours a day and 5 hours on Fridays. Nice huh? I saw the time cards of the other person. They always show 40 hours on them. Yet I know she arrives betw 9 am and 10 am and leaves by 3:30 pm.
The New Wanderer* January 19, 2019 at 2:15 pm It sounds like the next time she asks for flexibility and it’s not for an FMLA-level reason, she can and should be denied it, particularly if it inconveniences the team. That might help ‘even things out’ if she’s not going to be flexible in return.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 10:30 pm I think that’s really the main thing. It sounds like the OP entered into this arrangement thinking that they were going to exchange flexibility with Cindy and Cindy didn’t see it that way. I don’t know that she’s necessarily WRONG not to see it that way — I just know it sucks when you feel like you’ve entered into an implicit agreement with someone and the other person doesn’t hold up their side. I think the way to approach it is to just pull back on what you’re willing to offer now that you know it’s not the exchange you thought it was going to be. If you know that Cindy is not available for overtime (because it’s clear now that she’s not), what then are you willing to do for her?
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:34 pm Cindy isn’t necessarily unavailable for overtime. I don’t fault her for keeping her commitment to her friend and holding a boundary. I wouldn’t have given a reason for not being able to stay and I’d be more likely to if I knew well in advance I might be asked to, at some point. Namey McNameface, it sounds like you made decisions based on her sob story and assume she knows what that cost you/the business, but does she? And, even if she does, so what? Does she know you expect overtime from her? How often? How many of these secret rules can you make explicit?
The Other Dawn* January 19, 2019 at 6:05 am This is super late, but something I just thought of while job searching. Does anyone have any experience with a company’s “talent network”? There are a few companies I’m looking at that have a talent network. If they don’t have a job posting that interests you, you upload your resume and contact information and I guess it’s kept on file. I’m wondering, has anyone ever gotten a job that way? Does the company’s HR actually look at the resumes coming in through that channel? I feel like my resume just goes into a black hole, never to be seen again.
Luisa* January 19, 2019 at 7:28 am My employer has one, and does use it – in fact, that’s how they found me! However, I don’t percieve that they are very common in my field/area; I only know of one other area employer that does this, and I think that’s more a function of their antiquated HR system than anything. (I had to snail-mail paper copies of my materials! In 2015! It was nuts!)
Triplestep* January 19, 2019 at 8:54 am I would say it can’t hurt, but don’t rely on it. I have uploaded my resume to a couple of “talent networks” with no results. One of these companies posted a role that seemed like a good match for me; I applied and got an interview, so they clearly agreed I’d be a good candidate, so why didn’t they find me in their talent network? Another talent network I joined sends me regular e-mails about “new jobs” that turn out to be old reqs when I click on the link.
Trixie* January 19, 2019 at 1:11 pm My university recently added this capability with new software and it’s a great way to keep talent in the pipeline until the right position opens up. Prior to the software change, it was much more difficult to keep a handle on potential candidates. Now when position does become available, that individual can be invited to apply and flagged for hiring manager to review.
hate_useless_meetings* January 19, 2019 at 5:07 pm I’ve used “talent networks” many times but have never had positive results. Judging by the companies I’ve worked at, HR is not looking at these profiles. “Talent networks” is really just a method of employee branding.
Mimi* January 19, 2019 at 7:40 am I’ve recently started a position as a Contractor in Coordinator position. This position has veered off from the more coordinator position and turned more into an administrative position. I’d appreciate some feedback on the following. -I’ve been instructed that my schedule is from 9am to 5pm, which does not allow for lunch break. I’ve asked my boss to come in earlier to allow me to get more work done and take a lunch but I’ve been denied. I’ve also contacted my agency but I’ve been told “I don’t see what the problem is” -I’ve been placed in charge of my offices evacuation team, in charge of evacuating the office. I never asked to be placed on this team and feel that it a liability in my position as a contractor. -I’ve been given receptionist duties which is being responsible when the receptionist calls out sick and decides to leave early each day. This causes me to be the only person left alone in the office but that front desk needs to be manned even though no one ever comes into the office. I’d appreciate the feedback and any help. Thank you
only acting normal* January 19, 2019 at 8:13 am The lack of lunch break would be illegal in many places, so check your local laws. (E.g. in the UK it’s 20min minimum in a 7+ hour day.) In the role of “co-ordinator” do you have authority to delagate any of these tasks? Or has this been a total bait and switch where you are now the office dogsbody gap-filler? Our contractors can only be used for the specific project and tasks they are brought in on (hint is in the name): what did your contract say? Also we’d never make them an evacuation person because they’re inherently temporary, but we’re a big organisation with hundreds of people per office. Yours sounds like a very different situation.
Mimi* January 19, 2019 at 8:56 am Thank you for the feedback. I’m located in CA. So I believe our laws state that at the 6th hour of the workday you need to take a break. When I’ve asked if I can come earlier to accommodate a lunch I was told no cause I was to have a “live training” which never took place. Our office has about 40 people but part of a large corporation. It just doesn’t make sense to me to have someone who is temporary be in charge, but the office manager and her admin just don’t want to be bothered.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 10:24 pm Okay. I’m interpreting CA to mean California. When I googled it said that you had to have a half-hour unpaid lunch break if you worked at least 6 hours but that you could waive your right to lunch. Between you not getting lunch and you being reassigned to be a receptionist, I’m suspicious about the terms of this contract — especially if it was signed by the agency that placed you there and not by you. Obviously, I don’t have all the intel, but if the agency HAS signed an agreement that you’ll work for 8 straight hours doing whatever random thing… you need to stop working with that agency. And you need to bounce from this job as soon as you can, because people who would WANT you to work eight hours without a break are assholes, regardless of what the agency agreed to.
Triplestep* January 19, 2019 at 8:28 am I agree the lunch break question might be a legal one. In pretty much any job they can hire you for one thing then change your responsibilities to another, so I don’t think you have any standing to argue the shift from coordinator to admin. Or the receptionist duties, I’m afraid. One the evacuation responsibilities, in the US companies of a certain size legally need to have fire drill procedures, and they need to document the names of people who are the “Fire Marshalls”, whose responsibility it is to make sure everyone leaves, and counts heads once they have gathered at the designated area. I am guessing that’s what this is. They don’t want to give the responsibility to any “real” employee, so they are giving it to the contractor.
Mimi* January 19, 2019 at 8:59 am Thank you for the feedback! It’s frustrating when reaching out to my boss or the agency and don’t see any issue with not being able to take a lunch break.
The New Wanderer* January 19, 2019 at 2:10 pm I think at that point, you need to be able to cite the legal requirement for a lunch break. If they claim they don’t see what the problem is, you ask “By CA law I’m required to have a 20 min break by at least 2 pm, and my current schedule doesn’t allow that. Can you help me understand how we’re complying with the law if I’m not allowed a lunch break?” If you’re being given duties that don’t make sense for your contract – reception desk, evacuation – can you ask your agency whether there’s another contract role that is a better fit? Because it doesn’t sound like this one is worth saving.
Puppy Lover* January 19, 2019 at 10:09 am How long do you give someone to improve their performance? I work at two jobs. Both have employees they have been working with on performance. One job, Sally has been working on her performance for a year and the other job, Joe, has been for 9 months. Their performance from the start has negatively impacted each company.
LNLN* January 20, 2019 at 1:29 pm I think it would depend on the skills that need to be improved. For skills used every day or weekly, I think a month is long enough to evaluate improvement. For other skills, I could see 3-4 months being needed. 9-12 months seems excessive.
Kate H* January 19, 2019 at 12:46 pm I posted in the Nov. 16-17 open thread asking for advice on how to explain to my boss in my performance review that his constant talking and complaining about our workplace was affecting my morale and ability to focus. Restingbutchface asked me to let them know how it went, so here I am with an update. I’d like to say that I went into my performance review, talked it out with him, and the issue is resolved. When the topic of noise level didn’t come up naturally, I chickened out of bringing it up on my own. He hasn’t gotten any better recently; if anything he’s gotten worse. He spent over an hour talking with his coworker about something they were working on for our now-working-remotely department head and laughed about it getting them fired. He also vented about upper management in front of a new hire on her first day. The good news! In order to keep new hires as close to their supervisor as possible, my desk has been moved back to a space that I used to sit in several months ago. I was only moved then because our department head wanted to move my coworker to a desk where our supervisor would be able to keep a close eye on him–but didn’t want to single him out with the shift. I’m now far enough away that my noise-cancelling headphones block out my boss’s voice unless he’s shouting to someone across the room. My morale is a lot higher now that I can listen to podcasts all day in peace again and I don’t have to hear his constant venting about how much he hates our employer.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 4:03 am I think this is for the best. Based on the description of your boss’s actions, I don’t think this conversation would have gone well for you. Glad this worked out for you.
Beanie* January 19, 2019 at 6:11 pm Sensitive topic and possible Trigger Warning here!!! So, I was sexually assaulted by a client at the end of December. Police are involved. Unfortunately, the place I was working at retaliated against me when I reported, and they suspended me for misconduct. They said that as a therapist, I was in a position of power, therefore it was hard for them to believe that I didn’t consent to anything. Naturally, I quit. I now have a new part time job. My new employer is aware of the incident, and found the way my previous employer handled it to be awful. However, at my orientation, he did make a comment about me needing to minimize my risk of these types of incidents. I did not let on how hurtful that comment was, because I need the job. He also let it slip he was having a hard time finding people of my profession this time of year, which I kind of felt was an unintentional way of telling me I was picked because I was the only real applicant, and not because they were particularily enthused about having me on. Maybe I’m just lacking confidence after my horrible incident, but do you guys think I should be worried? Should I keep looking? It’s also difficult to think about switching, because it is a young business, and my leaving could be detrimental.
CM* January 19, 2019 at 10:00 pm I would press for more intel about the safety plan. What is this guy’s advice about HOW to minimize the risk of being assaulted? Is it having better security in the building, making sure none of you is ever the only person working when a client comes in, and that kind of thing, or is it more like you should change the way you look or limit the kinds of clients you can see? Aside from finding out for sure whether he’s victim blaming or simply misspoke, you obviously do want to work somewhere where they take your safety seriously and have an appropriate plan beyond “try not to get assaulted.” My gut instinct is that he’s a jerk, but pressing for more intel is the only way to find out for sure.
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:41 pm Don’t worry at all about the business’ longevity. What serves you? Not this guy. Isn’t there someone you’d feel more supported?
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 4:25 am I’m so sorry for what happened to you. And for your employer’s disgusting reaction. Have you considered consulting a lawyer to protect yourself/your interests? Definitely ask your new employer HOW to minimize the risk of these types of incidents. While it came out awful the way he said it, maybe he has ideas/plans/procedures that could make you safer. Please just consider his “hard time finding people of your profession this time of year” to be a poorly worded bit of information unrelated to you. You say the police are involved. Do they have any suggestions for you to be safer while doing your job? Can you reach out to your professional organizations for advice? I say this not to imply that you did anything wrong. I say this because if I were you, I would want to find something that I could change so that I would feel safer. Trying to be helpful suggestion: If you will be alone with clients, are there other people nearby? Would an emergency personal alarm be helpful? It is a device that you could have in your pocket, and you push a button if a bad situation starts to occur, and it sounds a very loud alarm. If you google “emergency personal alarm,” you will find examples. Again, I am so sorry that this happened to you. I wish you the best. If you can, please consider reposting next Friday, but earlier. There are many knowledgeable people here who might have better suggestions.
Beanie* January 20, 2019 at 2:08 pm Thank you guys for your feedback. I guess to make things clearer, there’s not much more that can be done. I work as a massage therapist. That often means I’m alone one on one with clients. My assailant was likely a predator who had done similar things, since it’s become clear he essentially groomed me for the assault, and harassed me in such a way to ensure my silence. I like the idea of a personal alarm! The only real plan my new boss had was dressing business casual (which I was when I was assaulted), and to report any bad behaviour from clients as soon as possible. Yes, some points I will be the only one in the clinic. Two nights a week. I don’t want to limit my clientele because I have had hundreds of clients, and just one monster. I do appreciate the input. I’ve been out of work for a month, so I’m jittery.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 9:51 pm Those two nights a week when you and client are alone – those are the clients that need to be extremely well screened. Your old employer is awful. I am sorry you were treated this way. I admire your strength – it is difficult to report sexual assault, more difficult than other violent crimes. Best wishes going forward.
Observer* January 21, 2019 at 10:10 am Please also consider talking to a lawyer – it’s quite possible that what your prior employer did was illegal. It’s hard to tell if your employer is victim blaming or just not thinking straight. But, he is right that it’s to your benefit to report any bad behavior IMMEDIATELY. And that includes the kind of boundary crossing “deniable” behavior that I suspect your assailant used on you prior to his attack. But also, pay attention to the rest of what they say and do. Over the longer term you should be able to figure out whether this is a place you can really be comfortable.
gsa* January 20, 2019 at 4:11 am I have a letter of resignation to write. Has anyone written one of these recently? I will hand it to Manager and email it to the Owner. The Owner interviewed me before I was hired. He is out of state, so I believe email is best. Thanks, gas
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 4:33 am Dear Boss, I am giving my notice that I will be leaving my employment with you. My last day will be X (in the USA, this is typically 2 weeks from the day you send this notice). Thank you for the opportunities to grow professionally while at company Y. Sincerely, gas You can leave the ‘thank you’ line off if it does not work for you. But a thank you for something (grow professionally, learn W, whatever is a nice touch). Then, verbally, tell your boss what you plan to do to make it easier to pass your work on to whoever takes your place. Or, if you are not sure, ask your boss what would be best to do during your notice period. I hope this means you have a nice, new job lined up. Good luck!
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 4:34 am I am a night owl in Oregon. What is your excuse for being up this late?
gaa* January 20, 2019 at 8:02 am Thanks ..Kat.. . I’m on the East Coast. New job is lined up!!! And sooner to be former job still wares on me.
Formerly Arlington* January 20, 2019 at 8:59 am Hey, does anyone recall a letter Alison answered about dealing with one difficult employee–like how to hold your management accountable when there is one egregious employee who is your peer? My husband is dealing with this exact situation (his peer bullies the nurses in their practice) and his management is ignoring complaints from the nurses, their boss (the director of nurses) and has spoken directly to his peer, with no improvement, so he is trying to get the owners to do something. I’d write in myself about this (he’s not an AAM reader/user and that’s not his style) but I feel like I read about an extremely similar scenario that she already handled. Basically, how to get your management to address damaging behavior that could impact the company in a negative way. Thanks in advance if anyone can help!
valentine* January 20, 2019 at 2:43 pm I think this case is specific and egregious enough for you to write in.
JNM* January 20, 2019 at 8:53 pm How long after you’ve stopped working at a company, is it weird that you still use references from that company? Especially when you don’t have many companies and references to use because your past work experience has largely at this company? For example: If I stopped working at Company A in 2014, is it weird to still use my past supervisors from there when I apply for jobs in 2019 (five years after I quit)? Will the past supervisors be annoyed that I would still like them to serve as references through multiple job searches? Side note: I have had one position at Company B after leaving Company A, but for the work I want to do next, the people at Company A would be better suited to talk about my skills, work habits, etc.
..Kat..* January 20, 2019 at 9:58 pm I don’t think it is weird. Especially since you have only had one position at a different company since then. Especially since Company A is better suited to talk about your skills, work habits, etc. I don’t know about whether past supervisors will be annoyed. I would do my best to only use them when you get to the point where you are sure that the potential new job is a good fit. Good luck with your job search.
Bowserkitty* January 21, 2019 at 9:24 pm I am super late to this thread (yay time difference) so I may wait to add this to the next one, but this is an interesting read. http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20190118-how-people-are-ghosting-their-employers Hiring people to quit your job for you? Wow.