our traditionally male company has an annual golf trip — but our new female employees don’t play

by Alison Green on May 15, 2019

A reader writes:

Our smallish family-owned business has been taking our sales team on a long weekend golf trip on and off for many years/decades. It is intended to be a reward/retreat type trip, and little if any business is discussed when we are there. Mostly beer drinking, side betting golf, in a beach town with multiple golf courses and a long weekend. Many of our team have young children and the weekend getaway is well received and appreciated, and talked about throughout the year. The sales team of 10-15 people in two branches are the only ones eligible for the trip because they are paid via commission, and therefore do not receive bonuses under our pay structure.

Historically, all or very nearly all of our sales team have been male, and golfers. The managers are all golfers and our company is based in a town where golf is a big deal (major tournament held here every year, we sponsor many charity golf tournaments, customers and vendors regularly take our sales members golfing). This year, we have three female employees eligible for the trip who do not play golf. In the past if we had a male sales rep who did not play golf, he might come on the trip and ride in a cart, and just drink beer or observe, or might elect to not attend at all. We play a “best ball” style game where you really do not have to play well at all to participate.

So we are currently trying to decide how to handle this year’s trip, without ostracizing anyone and also without taking away a much appreciated day off and benefit. I am relatively new, but the rest of the managers have been here for decades. We usually take a Friday off and return on Sunday. Their proposed options include:

– Providing a separate cabin for the women, and offering them money (equivalent to the golf package spent on the men) to take a day trip and eat/shop/day trip in a nearby major destination city while the men are golfing.

– Providing them the separate cabin, but no other plan options (basically ride along on the course, and not miss the fellowship aspect of the trip). One of the women already proposed being a “cart girl” passing out beers, but I don’t think the other women would appreciate such a plan.

– Offering a cash benefit, based on the value of the trip, and the day off, as an alternative to attending. The proposal was based on the assumption that some or all of them may not want to attend, but those that did want to could. But here is the catch — this would not be offered to the men. It has always been jokingly referred to as a mandatory trip, but it seems every year one or two people cannot attend. They are not expected to work that day but have never been given additional benefits.

Any thoughts on this? I feel like offering all three would cover our bases, but it doesn’t address the fact that if you are not actively playing golf in this tournament style weekend, you will be missing time with managers and owners of the company. In the past none of these options were offered to men who did not play golf. I am a little nervous any time gender issues come up at work and feel like this situation is ripe to strike out with at least one of our female employees.

I think your golf trip is going to have to change. Maybe not this year, but for future years.

Here’s the thing: You cannot, as a business, host trips that men attend and women don’t. That’s true even if the women are invited but choose not to go. If you find that you’re sponsoring something that women generally don’t want to participate in while the men do, you need another plan.

The push-back to that is, of course, “But other people like it! Why should they have to lose a trip that they look forward to and which historically has been a fun thing we’ve rallied around?”

And the answer to that is: Because you’re a workplace and you need to ensure that the activities you sponsor aren’t segregated by gender, even if it happens voluntarily. As an employer, there are priorities above “let people have fun,” like ensuring that women aren’t alienated and that they have equal access to networking opportunites and to your leadership. And “let people have fun” is also trumped by your organization’s obligation to follow the law — because this kind of thing has led to sex discrimination lawsuits. In fact, there’s a long, well established history of women being excluded professionally through socializing of exactly this kind of thing (golf is probably the most common example that comes up, in fact). At a minimum your company is going to appear remarkably oblivious to that deeply entrenched history — but it also risks actual legal problems sprouting from it.

And yes, the push-back to that is, “Well, the women could participate if they wanted to! They’re choosing not to.”

The answer to that is: Yes. They’re choosing not to. So it’s on your company to see that and change its practices accordingly, so that it’s not organizing networking opportunites that only men are responding to. The intent isn’t what matters here — the actual outcome is.

To respond to the specifics in your letter: Your instincts are right that under no circumstances should anyone suggest the women be “cart girls.”

You also shouldn’t offer to send women shopping while the men golf. That’s playing right into sexist stereotypes. You can’t do that.

And you can’t offer the women cash and a day off while not offering that to men because it’s illegal to pass out perks based on sex.

Nor should you be hosting a trip where the men golf and network while they women get a cabin but miss out on the rest (again, even if it’s their choice).

So, what do you do? Honestly, I think you’ll need to phase out the trip and instead find things that both men and women are up for participating in. That’s your responsibility as a business. And yes, you’re going to get some complaints, but complaints are not a reason not to do the correct thing. You can frame it as, “As our staff has grown, we’re hearing that there are other things people would enjoy doing.” (In fact, it might be worth surveying your staff about what activities they’d enjoy, or whether they want off-hours activities at at all. And who knows, you might find out that this trip isn’t the first choice for all of the men either.)

Assuming it’s too late to do that for this year, though, you should make the trip voluntary for everyone, not just the women, and give everyone the choice of the trip or the time off. And you should consider planning something else for this year that will have broader appeal (ideally scheduled during work hours so people don’t have to give up their weekends to attend).

Does it suck for people who liked and looked forward to this trip each year? Yes! It does. And it’s still what you need to do if you want to be a workplace that’s inclusive (and legally sound).

You may also like:
{ 1,625 comments }

{ 1,625 comments… read them below }

  1. The Bermudian*

    Obvious, but could you not offer those who wanted to come along but don’t know how to play golf… lessons? i.e. professional ones with a pro. I would love that, personally.

    1. zimmertaco*

      I was typing out the same thing!

      I wasn’t sure from the letter whether the women just “don’t” golf or whether they don’t *wish* to golf. Maybe if golf is as big a part of your company’s culture and business opportunities and community footprint as you say, the company could consider offering subsidized beginner golf lessons for any employees who want to learn. I know many women, myself included, who learned to golf in order to have access to some of those networking opportunities. I get that nobody should have to learn a sport just to get ahead, but truly a lot of business and shop talk happens of golf courses–and it seems fair to attempt to put that sort of thing in reach for all employees even while you’re also trying to minimizing negative impacts of those who don’t want to take that approach.

      This is not, of course, an immediate solution to the golf trip conundrum.

      1. JokeyJules*

        your 2nd sentence makes me wonder if OP asked them that specifically… which is a good point! Never have and never will are hugely different.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed.

        I’m not interested in golf for the sake of golf at all, but I’m very conscious of its intertwined position with business, and if my company offered golf lessons that I didn’t have to pay for, I’d jump at them as a(n unfortunately necessary) professional development tool.

        1. goducks*

          As a woman who has worked very hard to be taken seriously, the thought of taking beginner lessons at something that I’m not interested in and almost certainly wouldn’t be good at in full view of my male colleagues is a hard pass. I’m ok owning up to shortcomings in the workplace, but I’m not going to subject myself to an unnecessary reason to look a fool.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Not only that, it still doesn’t address the issue that the women who work there still wouldn’t be getting the same time with executives to rub shoulders and schmooze for advancement opportunities.

              1. Bittersuess*

                My former company did something like this: All the men in the department would go to a gun range. I was the only woman, and I HATE guns. They offered to teach me to shoot, so that I could “tag along.” Not only was it a hard pass, it motivated me to leave. Not surprising, I also experienced pregnancy and post-pregnancy discrimination in that department.

                In short, lessons to “fit in” are not the way to go.

                1. Daniela*

                  Oh my gosh, I would have traded horrible workplaces with you in a second. Lessons sound fun, at least. At a former job in the late 90s, our President, VP, CFO and a few other execs would hold actual company meetings at a strip club. Most years, they also went to Sturgis and stories would trickle back about hookers and drugs. Not surprisingly, the 2 female C-suite employees were never included.

                2. RUKiddingMe*

                  Exactly. The women do not need to “fir in.” The company needs to change to be inclusive. Sure the boys will whine how it’s so “not fair.” Tough.

            3. MeepMeep*

              How good of a golfer is your average executive? It’s not like they’re professional-level players. If it’s a bonding activity for otherwise very busy people, I think the skill level expected is pretty average. Once the non golfers on the team get to that level, they get the exact same opportunities to network.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                How good of a golfer is someone who’s a beginner going to be and how much time, money, and practice would this person need to get to to even be at an average level with the rest of the execs? They’re not getting to average with a couple free lessons here and there from the company, not unless they’re naturally gifted, so no – they won’t end up getting the same exact opportunity.

              2. Oxford Comma*

                It’s not just knowing how, there are associated expenses. You’ve got to get a set of clubs, greens fees, etc. And it’s not the easiest thing in the world to learn. Not the hardest, but not the easiest.

              3. RUKiddingMe*

                “Once the non golfers on the team get to that level, they get the exact same opportunities to network.”

                This…is a problem. They shouldn’t need to reach a certain level of golf (or anything else) ability before being given the exact same opportunities.

          3. Jules the 3rd*

            Same here. No interest in traditional golf at all.

            You’re never going to find something that everyone *wants* to do, but you can find things that are less traditionally gendered. During the work day, yes, not laser tag.

            1. Gumby*

              I would *love it* if work offered a laser tag trip. And I’m a woman. I also know women who golf for fun (not for networking).

              Just because a person is a woman doesn’t mean she can’t be interested in golf. Or laser tag. Or football. Or whatever. Just as men can be totally into gymnastics or dance or whatever. Is it less likely? Probably. But any given company is working with actual people not theoretical people – so ask them! Poll your employees to find out what they would find fun and interesting. Ignore whether the activity seems gendered as long as everyone is at least moderately interested in it. Maybe change it up and do something different every year making sure to distribute fairly the “extremely interested” and “moderately interested” activities among the whole staff.

              It is obviously wrong to hold the golf retreats when the women that you already have employed are not interested. But it is another thing entirely to write off an entire sport or other activity because it has traditionally skewed male. Or female.

              1. Miss Petty and Vindictive*

                I am a big fan of laser tag. I am extremely bad at it, but I love it.

              2. Anonyish*

                The big disappointment of my working life is that I am not in a job in which there is any chance of an away day doing paintballing or laser tag.

                I do think that there’s a particular issue with golf in that it has a long and continuing history as a very gendered sport (and also a racially segregated sport, and in many places a de facto class segregated one due to cost) that means that it isn’t simply gendered in terms of assumed interest, but in terms of practical access regardless of personal interest. I wouldn’t be thrilled at a work trip to a football (soccer) match, but at least that is something that as a woman I have always had the option to attend. Unlike golf, which when I was growing up didn’t have women members on local courses.

                That said, the company has a tradition. How about an option of going to the place, golf being one of a couple of activities – the other NOT being shopping – and the managers/owners engaging in both activities equally so everyone gets an opportunity to mingle with them.

          4. Not So NewReader*

            Right on, goducks. While I know I would make myself look foolish what really concerns me is my premature death from boredom. I. can’t. do. it. The thought of spending several hours, never mind a day or more, golfing would be enough for me to hand in my notice. I am not a sports person probably in part because I have never been good at it. There’s only so many times a person can look foolish and then that person just decides they are Done, with a capital D. I want a job for the work, not to play sports.

            OP, are people told about this on the interview? It sounds like it’s a big deal for your company.

          5. Mookie*

            Agreed. In many places golf is so coded white, male, and affluent (or just aspirational), that it’s hard to imagine members of that demographic condescending to take up the offer of ‘coaching’ lest they lose status. Segregating by expertise is hardly likely to substantially differ in representation from the default golf event; the same people are likely to miss out on the schmoozing and networking, which is the point.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          WORD UP. I would rather do almost anything else. If I wanted to learn to golf, I’d have taken up lessons on my own. It’s not like it’s not accessible.

        3. O'Henry*

          +1. All Allison’s “solution” will accomplish is to make sure the men get together to play golf informally. Lessons make sure that experienced golfers and newbies alike can network.

          1. Lunita*

            Not really-if I’m a beginner spending all my time that weekend trying to catch up with a trainer, I’m not going to get networking opportunities because the higher ups are going to be playing a game, not training with me.

      4. dealing with dragons*

        I have a shoulder injury that makes it impossible to golf. I can’t make the motion.

        Guess that means I don’t get to network?

        1. Midge*

          Good point. It obviously hasn’t come up yet for this company, but this is also an accessibility issue.

        3. Kat in VA*

          Me also. A ton of titanium in my neck precludes me from anything that requires twisting.

        4. Curmudgeon in Califormia*

          I have hemiparesis. I walk with a limp and have the use of only one arm.

          I wouldn’t be able to golf even if I wanted to.

        5. Ego Chamber*

          Is your other shoulder okay though? You could still be a “cart girl”! /s

        6. Big Bank*

          I’m legitimately at a loss on what activities are appropriate. If you account for all the potential physical limitations people may have, plus account for preferences, remove anything considered gendered, what are you left with? Going out to lunch? Except no, now you’ve got allergies and diet preferences, plus the alcohol question… I get that things should be as inclusive as possible, but I just dont agree that every preference needs considered. OP mentions the game is played lose, so people not good can still play and would hopefully not be made uncomfortable. People that can’t play can hang out and chat on the course. Is it perfect for everyone? No, but what the hell is?

          1. dealing with dragons*

            I also can’t bowl without pain (or with any skill lol) but I can still sit around and chat there. and you’re making a general guess over a whole population, whereas the OP needs to find an activity appropriate for 10-15 people. It boils down to needing to accept that golf has a sordid history (many courses did not allow women at all until 20 years ago. let that sink in.) and trying to find new things for your growing workforce. In this instance you can take the gender out of it – you have say 5 “old boys” golfing but then you’ve hired 5 new people – maybe they don’t like golf or maybe they have new ideas of things to do. Maybe a scotch tasting tour? Maybe a boat ride down a river? who knows.

          2. OP*

            Cash… I think that is it.
            Which is why I assumed that you could use the knowledge you have about your employees (their interests and abilities) to pick activities. Apparently that is not the case.

      5. Op*

        Op here. Really like this idea. One of the reasons for the golf trip is that, like I said in the letter, it is a common benefit for our sales staff to participate in customer and nonprofit golf events during work hours.

        I will definitely look into this! Thanks!

          1. Win*

            Ok I am trying to catch up on the comments. Why is that? If they are turning down customer requests because they do not know how to play…. it seems to me this would be a good career move. Obviously optional.

            1. Rayner*

              Because this is not about how to play. This is about an activity that excludes people and giving them lessons doesn’t solve the issue.

              It makes the issue ‘how can we get them playing’ rather than ‘is this an inclusive activity regardless of skill level or desire to play?’ Because you’re offering an activity that doesn’t appeal to all, and you’re saying to a specific group of people ‘in order to participate fully, you will likely need lessons but most of the men won’t’.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              There’s extensive discussion of this below, but it’s also because of the deeply entrenched history golf has in sex discrimination in workplaces (quoting fposte, it’s “a dated monoculture associated with asymmetric and unfair privilege”).

              1. Felicia*

                Honestly, Allison, I’m going to have to challenge your response as unhelpful and borderline sexist.
                Your answer largely boils down to “find something else to do” without providing any helpful alternatives. What is a gender neutral social activity, several hours long (or day long, or several days long) that is also conducive to simultaneous business discussion and networking? As a woman, what would you want it replaced with? A man is asking you for help here, and you tell him what not to do, but you don’t tell him what he should do.
                Moreover, those suggesting lessons are correctly making the distinction whether they don’t golf, or don’t wish to golf. If it is the latter, then that is one thing, but you should not shut down the possibility of the former without suggesting he inquire if the affected employees would want it.
                Most importantly though, as a female golfer, I am offended by the implication that women just don’t golf. Period. The toxic notion that women don’t like sports (or science, or executive work) is perpetuated by women just as much as men, and that is what you have done. If golf is part of this company’s culture, then women should be encouraged to participate. You know as well as I do that if this is changed, the women will be blamed for killing the fun. They are not being asked to participate in anything sexual, illegal, or morally compromising. It’s a friggin game, and there is no reason to shut that down on the completely false notion that women don’t like sports – especially if you don’t have another suggestion.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Where did Alison say women as a whole don’t like sports? She noted that, per the OP, the women at this particular workplace on this particular sales team don’t like golf. So if that’s the case, how is this trip, which is supposed to be a reward for performance, really a reward or perk? They get absolutely nothing out of it, so yes, the company should find another reward.

                2. MsM*

                  “What is a gender neutral social activity, several hours long (or day long, or several days long) that is also conducive to simultaneous business discussion and networking?”

                  Escape room? Boat trip (as long as rapids aren’t involved)? Camping? Historical site tour? D&D? And that’s on ten seconds’ worth of brainstorming. I appreciate that you’re defending your hobby, but if someone can’t come up with an alternative to golf, they’re not trying very hard.

                3. CanuckCat*

                  My organization always does a full day off-site in the summertime, as a ‘thank you’ to staff for all the hard work they put in every year. Last year we had a catered lunch, followed by either a scavenger hunt or a site tour of the location we had lunch at (depending on people’s preference for activity level). In previous years they’ve done escape rooms, movie days and plenty of other activities that don’t necessitate people knowing how to do a very specific activity or sport.

                4. Felicia*

                  These are good suggestion for purely social activities, but are not conducive to conversation in the same way that golf is. Have you ever tried talking about improving sales during an escape room?

                5. fposte*

                  You’re talking as if operating culturally blind were a solution to sexism (and for that matter racism and other bigotry), and that’s a fallacy. You’re also talking as if Alison had invented out of whole cloth the idea that the female employees don’t play golf, when the OP explicitly states that.

                6. stitchinthyme*

                  From the original letter: “It is intended to be a reward/retreat type trip, and little if any business is discussed when we are there.”

                  If it’s supposed to be fun, they should poll the employees and see what people would like to do! Throw in some suggestions (a bunch have been mentioned here, like laser tag, escape rooms, etc), but allow people to write in their own as well. If it’s supposed to be a perk and not a business thing, then it should be fun for everyone, or at least as close to everyone as possible.

                7. Ulf*

                  Some possible activities that, like golf, include short bursts of not-very-physical activity interspersed with dead periods in which talking is A-OK, or activities that, also like golf, don’t require an enormous amount of brainpower, making conversation very possible:

                  Quilting or knitting (what? surely you’re not saying that men don’t like needlework?). Spades, hearts, or gin rummy. Bowling. Watching a baseball game. Flatwater canoeing. Watersliding. A leisurely hike. All allow for a fun experience with others and plenty of time for talking or bonding or whatever the heck it is that happens on a golf course. Really, it’s not difficult to come up with alternatives to golf.

                  If you find you don’t like one (or more) of these activities, you might try to put yourself in the position of someone who doesn’t have any interest in golf being told that golf is the activity of the weekend, sorry, that’s the way it is.

                  I don’t know very many golfers, but most of those I know share Felicia’s rather peculiar idea that EVERYBODY likes (or should like) to play, watch, and think about golf as often as humanly possible. I’m sure there are golfers who aren’t like this, but let’s put it this way: the golfers I know generally seem to lack theory of mind, at least where this passion is concerned. It’s very weird.

                9. Hoya Lawya*

                  I agree with Felicia. A lot of this response seems to boil down to “I don’t like golf,” partly or mostly because in some contexts it was exclusionary. It doesn’t follow that it’s *always* exclusionary, though — and I certainly don’t see how the mere fact of hitting a ball down a fairway is inherently exclusionary.

                  Granted, there are some people with disabilities, back problems, and so on. However, I don’t think the idea that “someone out there might be unable to play” is the same as broadbased exclusion. By that standard, no company could ever participate in a charity 5K race, or a pickup basketball game (Obama played those, so are you saying his White House was exclusionary?), or a short hike. That stance strikes me as unrealistic.

                  Tennis used to be perceived as exclusionary, too, but that began changing with Billie Jean King and players like Zina Garrison, and of course today we have players like Venus and Serena.

                10. Mookie*

                  Alison didn’t create the phenomenon the LW is literally describing as actually happening. As with “race,” there’s an important difference between feigning gender-blindness and acknowledging the the disparities borne of genderedness. No, recognizing sexism isn’t Just As Bad as sexism, unconscious or not.

                11. Mookie*

                  Also, the proposition that male-coded activities be regarded as default and neutral is, you guessed it, plain old sexism.

              2. Ginevra Farnshawe*

                This this this this this forever. Golf, even more than other Work Sports, has an ugly history of being used by business bros precisely to shut out women (and also of extreme racism while we’re on it). “No girls allowed” was the primary purpose and whatever it is that is actually involved in the Act of Golf was just an excuse. I have no opinion on whether any particular woman should learn to golf for her career (unless her career is professional golfer), but an employer proposing golf lessons to me would get an earful. It’s not a hard problem, virtually ANY other activity has less baggage.

                1. Felicia*

                  This is the complete opposite of “No girls allowed.” This is them literally inviting women to join. If the golf has a history of excluding women, then the solution is to include them. Not abolish golf. By that logic, we should eliminate medicine, entertainment, engineering, and finance.

                2. OP*

                  So one reason I like the lessons idea is that our sales reps are regularly invited to play by their customers or organizations their customers support. That is not going away, and the ones that do play are regularly permitted to play during working hours which could be seen as a huge benefit.

                  So in my mind, even if we canceled the trip forever, offering golf lessons to our sales reps seems like a pretty good idea.

                3. Ginevra Farnshawe*

                  If I was unclear, it’s not that golf itself has a history of excluding women, it’s that golf has a almost *unique* history of being used in non-golf related professional contexts as a device for excluding women. Like, e.g. taking clients to strip clubs. The solution there isn’t “invite women to strip clubs with clients,” the solution is cut it out.

                  I am also skeptical that if you teach a woman to golf she will get invited to all the golfs, precisely because the boy’s club atmosphere is *the point* for so many men. Willing to be proven wrong.

                4. Ginevra Farnshawe*

                  Just for contrast–I worked somewhere that offered surfing lessons on a corporate retreat. That was fine. Is surfing traditionally dominated by men and are there sexists aspects to surfing culture? Yes. Are there decades of history of whole industries (in my case, corporate law) using surf meetings as an exclusionary tactic in the workplace? I don’t think so, though maybe I don’t know about it because all the surf meetings are kept secret from me.

                5. Jules the 3rd*

                  OP, sure, offer lessons, but don’t tie them to the trip, or to networking, in any way.

                  Think about it: on the trip, the guys are out together on a round while the women are back getting lessons. They totally lose out on the networking opportunities.

                  Other options:
                  A lavish group lunch, maybe more than 1x/year
                  Actual bonuses. Add bonuses for the sales team to your pay structure.
                  A movie outing?

                  Mgmt’s going to resist this because they get a free golf trip on the company with their buddies. That’s so 1950s, it’s time to move into the 21st century…

                  Really curious how your black sales people are dealing with this. Do you have any? do they play, or are they the salespeople who ‘couldn’t make it’? There’s still clubs in the US where they’re not welcome; Tiger Woods wasn’t allowed to play in the 2013 British Open because it was hosted at a club that didn’t allow blacks.

                6. RainbowsAndKitties*

                  Felicia, we are not saying “eliminate golf”. We are saying that choosing a golf outing as the “reward” for OP’s employee is not the best idea when all of the employees cannot equally reap the reward.

                7. Lizzy May*

                  “Tiger Woods wasn’t allowed to play in the 2013 British Open because it was hosted at a club that didn’t allow blacks.”

                  That isn’t true. And I don’t want to downplay the history of racism and current issues with racism in golf because they are very real, but Tiger Woods tied for 6th at the 2013 British Open.

                8. Kaaaaaren*

                  Yes! Golf in particular has an ugly history of exclusion, but just based on sex but also race (and also, I would argue, class). It’s a problematic activity in a business setting, even if most of this particular office likes it.

                9. Lis*

                  Not able to reply to the comment itself because of nesting but there is no way on earth Tiger Woods was not allowed to play in a British Open because he was black. That’s just not a thing in the UK. If he was female maybe but not because of race.

                10. Anonyish*

                  The 2013 Open was held at Muirfield, where Tiger Woods played. The people banned from Muirfield were women, who the club voted again in 2016 to ban – but changed its mind in 2017 because the R&A said OK, if it wouldn’t admit women, then it wouldn’t get to host the Open again*. And the R&A didn’t give a shit about that in 2013, but denied it was a problem, it only changed when major female figures in Scottish politics and public life made it an issue.

                  I am sure that many of Muirfield’s members are racist and that racism remains a problem in UK golf, but – unlike single-sex sports club – banning members on grounds of race is illegal.

                  *Muirfield still has no women members, because there is a very long waiting list with a lot of men on it.

                11. O'Henry*

                  “Felicia, we are not saying “eliminate golf”. We are saying that choosing a golf outing as the “reward” for OP’s employee is not the best idea when all of the employees cannot equally reap the reward.”

                  All that will accomplish is to make sure that the golfers get together on their own, where they’ll talk shop without the non-golfers being invited. Perhaps the company won’t pay, but if they talk business on the links they might even be able to take a tax deduction, so no harm, no foul.

                12. Mookie*

                  By that logic, we should eliminate medicine, entertainment, engineering, and finance

                  Ahistorical dogwhistke comparable to proclamations that so-called Western Civilization is the author of the present and the sole invention of white Europeans. Don’t blame women for your ignorance.

              3. Earthwalker*

                The men in our organization golfed together on company time. A woman coworker took lessons and asked to join them. She was allowed to do it once, but it was made clear that she would not be welcome again. Was that because she wasn’t good enough or because she was a woman? I don’t know. But I know that lessons doesn’t make a men’s golf outing gender neutral. The men kept golfing while we covered for them on the job, and then sneered at us when we women weren’t “in the know” about something that the boss revealed to them on the golf course. (That’s a good reason not to have the men golf while the women have an equally expensive shopping trip.) Personally I object on principle to the emblematic activity of exclusive country clubs, clubs that intentionally exclude people who are not rich, white, and male.

            3. Richard Hershberger*

              My own two cents is that I, a male non-golfer, would not enjoy this. Is the point here a fun benefit, or a schmooze event? If the latter, I might suck it up and learn to play golf, but it would entirely fail on the “fun benefit” front. I would be grimly doing something I didn’t want to do, while having to pretend otherwise. I would be counting the minutes until I could go home.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                Right. Some reward when you don’t even like the thing they’re trying to foist off on you.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                Right. Any job that involves golfing falls off my radar just for that alone. The entire game would be work for me and cohorts telling me it’s fun would be off-putting to me. It would make me feel unheard. Hence my solution of avoiding the whole problem.

          2. CoffeeforLife*

            I think the OP sees the golf lessons separate from the original question. Company sponsored discounted/free lessons that you take on your own time to ultimately help your sales and networking at charity event.

            I dislike mandatory fun but I’d jump on inexpensive lessons. Someone commented that they are accessible…well, they aren’t cheap! I’m learning and it’s around $100 an hour where I live.

            1. Washi*

              Yeah, this would be fine. Given what the OP is saying about the area, having a perk of the company be that everyone (not just sales staff even) gets like, 5 free golf lessons per year would be kind of cool. Some companies offer gym memberships, and if OP’s company wants to offer golf lessons, that would probably be appreciated.

              But that is NOT to preserve the golf trip, which needs to be changed for the many, many reasons detailed here.

              1. Micklak*

                Being encouraged to engage in a sport I had no interest in would be a punishment, not a perk.

                1. Sunny*

                  Not to mention that even players who love the sport may take years to get to a point where they can hold their own in a round.

                2. Washi*

                  I’m trying to think of an analogy, and the only one that’s coming to mind is let’s say that this is a field where all the top people are fluent in Latin. It’s not a requirement, but it really helps with networking. However, only people who went to fancy prep schools and colleges are fluent in Latin and there ends up being a huge divide between the Latin speakers and the non-speakers.

                  An annual company retreat where everyone gets together and only reads classical epics in Latin would be very exclusive. But if the company said essentially “we acknowledge that Latin will get you opportunities in this field so everyone is entitled to free weekly lessons” that would probably be welcomed. Not because everyone is naturally good at languages or excited about Latin, but because realistically, they are at a disadvantage for not knowing it and this is a chance to correct that, which can happen more quickly than an entire culture will change to not gate-keep based on Latin knowledge.

                6. Triplestep*

                  Seriously. OP, I am sorry to have to tell you, but even some of your male staff don’t enjoy this trip, but they go and act grateful because they have the kind of employer who thinks that not loving it would be a “red flag”.

                7. Hijos de Sanchez*

                  You know what? I hate golf. It is boring to me. Boring as watching grass grow.

                  But you know what else? I know that networking gets done over golf. So I learned to play. I will never be Tiger Woods, but I can play passibly. I still hate it. Every. Single. Minute. But I do it because it helps professionally, and I have no problem with that and do not judge people who do business over golf.

                8. RUKiddingMe*

                  @Hijos de Sanchez

                  No, no, no baseball is like watching grass grow. Golf is like watching grass seeds germinate.

                9. SS Express*

                  OP, I was really in your corner until that comment. If an employer’s attitude is that I should be grateful to be offered a “perk” that is a chore for me, and that I can’t opt out of without missing a valuable networking opportunity and putting myself at a disadvantage, that’s a red flag to me.

                10. MCMonkeyBean*

                  Yikes, OP seemed like they were really wanting to make their employees happy but after their reply to this comment I’m really not sure what their endgame even is?

            2. Micklak*

              As a clumsy nerd, I’m breaking out in a cold sweat at the suggestion that I would just need a few lessons in a sport I have no experience or interest in to fit into a work culture that I depend on to support your life.

              1. Kix*

                As a person with mobility issues, I’m discouraged that, in this day and age, I’d actually have to speak up as to why I cannot participate in an activity that sounds like a requirement to fit into the work culture. I’ve been there before, and when I spoke up and said WHY I couldn’t participate in said activity, I was told I needed to be a good sport and give it a try. I did, and it went badly. It’s not OK to put employees on the spot in situations like this.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  This highlights what is so wrong here.

                  I have found articles that said, “You must play golf if you want to succeed in the work world.” Well, I thought, I guess I will never succeed.
                  But that my-way or highway approach isn’t right. I think Alison did a great job breaking down what is wrong there.
                  One improvement I do see is that society is more willing to talk about this issue now.
                  Another improvement I see is at least with NPOs there are tighter regs about meetings and what constitutes a meeting, when meetings are and are not in compliance.

          1. TheThatcher*

            It does sound like the women have been able to provide input, as one of them suggested being a ‘cart girl’. I’m definitely not suggesting to go with the ‘cart girl’ idea, but it does show that input was received from the women on the team at the very least.

            1. Dust Bunny*

              I would be very skeptical of what kind of input the women felt comfortable giving. They know that this is an ingrained tradition and this is their job. A lot of people would hesitate to suggest a drastic change from something this established and get labeled the office party-pooper.

              1. goducks*

                Yes. I’m not convinced that the culture of this workplace is one where the women will feel comfortable expressing themselves. The OP already said that the golfing guys are going to feel like this is being “taken away” from them. Are the women, who are all brand new to this old-boys network department really going to feel safe to express themselves?

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Not at all. And the fact that OP keeps doubling down on this golf idea makes me think that even if these women did speak up and say they’d rather do something else (or even some of the men – some of them may not even truly like it, but felt they had to go along with the group), their concerns would be ignored anyway because this is just how it is in this industry.

                2. EmKay*

                  No they won’t. OP is already handwaving away non-golf suggestions here. I guarantee you that attitude is felt at the office.

                3. OP*

                  The trip is 6 months away. The conversation has been extremely informal. No pressure, no firm dates or invitations. I am trying to prepare before we get to that point of making real plans.

                1. Ego Chamber*

                  Yuuuup. There is no winning here. If you’re working at a place where the guys network at strip clubs, you can either be “that frigid girl” or “that weird girl who tags along to the strip clubs.”

                  Ask me how I know! ;D

                2. Lora*

                  *waves* Hi other Weird Girl / Ice Princess! There is really NO winning, is there?!?

                  When it comes to the vast category of things I learned to do for the purpose of Networking With Men, my personal favorite was poker. You sit there and drink whatever (soda water or tea as needed) and eat nibbles with cards in your hand. It’s relatively accessible to many people (keep the buy-in price very low), the Manly Men can sit there sipping overpriced whiskey, it’s only one evening once in a while, there’s plenty of time to chat.

                  I have a friend who also does Board Game/D&D Nights, and there are a LOT of people (even higher up in the food chain) who are into that sort of thing. You wouldn’t think it, there’s the stereotype of Manly Men smoking cigars and shotgunning beers on the golf course, but a great many financial decision-makers were nerdy physicists or engineers in a past life.

                  Now that I think about it, most of the financial decision-makers I know don’t really have time to play golf even if they were interested. Granted, this may just be my field, but if the point was reaching out to customers and you asked a bunch of Big Pharma guys on a golf outing, I think the only takers would be either thirsty social climbers who don’t have much power in the organization or guys counting the days to retirement who are pretty far removed from those type of decisions anyway.

            2. Observer*

              Not really.

              It sounds like it was “Hey, there is this trip that all the guys like, and we’re trying to find a way to continue doing that even though none of the women can play. What do you think?” (Obviously not those exact words, but something like that.)

              Clearly there has not been a open and open ended discussion, or the OP would not need to “think” the that other women might not like the “cart girl” suggestion. They would know this with a high degree of certainty.

            3. Kat in VA*

              Yes, going on a fun golf outing where your involvement is exclusively serving the men.

              Sound fantastic.

              If that sounds super sarcastic, it’s meant to.

          2. Washi*

            I think it could be really hard to ask the women for their input without putting them in the tough place of either pretending they’re ok with something so as not to rock the boat, or being That Person who caused the fun golf trips to stop.

            2. RUKiddingMe*

              Yeah I think that instead of putting the women in this untenable position, OP/OP’s employer could, IDK, do the actual work to find something else. Even if they have to hire a consultant to help them get their heads out…

        4. Psyche*

          If golfing is important in your field (not just a perk but a networking/sales opportunity) it could be a good thing to offer to pay for or subsidize lessons. This should not be combined with the trip though. Golf lessons are not a fun reward or a networking opportunity.

          1. une autre Cassandra*

            That’s my thought, Psyche. Divorced from the fraught topic of the trip, if charity golf tournaments are A Thing in this company/community, I’d be intrigued enough to take advantage of free-to-me lessons…but not in the context of letting me “tag along” on a golf-oriented weekend that’s also traditionally a guys’ weekend.

            1. Felicia*

              If you really want to proceed with the trip, you will at least need to rebrand it from a “golf trip”, and take more conscious steps to ensure that it is inclusive.
              1) Pick a location with other activities, like a spa or other sports. Plenty of resorts offer many things to do in addition to golf.
              2) Seriously tone down how mandatory / work related the golf is. Don’t have management or anyone formally organize games and tee times. Say “if you want to golf, that option is available to you” and let the employees work it out themselves. These people are adults, and can be trusted to arrange their own activities.
              3) Allow significant others and kids to come. For some, a weekend away from family is what they want, but for others it may be a disincentive – especially if that time away is forced socializing with colleagues. (That being said, you don’t have to pay for the extra guests, so choose somewhere affordable and kid friendly)
              4) This is an important one – make sure senior management spends their time with employees equally (especially not gender imbalanced). If, as you suggest, the golf becomes all male, then they should set aside time to have (appropriate) time with the women, such as a women and managers only lunch (or whatever – just make sure the women get quality conversation time too).

              1. OP*

                Felicia: This looks like what we will be doing, although, without number 3.

                Thank you for your comment.

                1. Penny Parker*

                  What you are doing is wrong. You are looking for any way to preserve it, without listening to the feedback you are getting about it being wrong and inappropriate. You seem to have written in for absolution for your sexism, not to listen to how this is outdated and extremely sexist.

              2. Not Me*

                Separate but equal is not equal. The men going golfing with the managers and a manager and women only lunch is a ludicrous idea.

              3. Elaine*

                Separate rooms for everyone or all should in the same home/cabin.
                Separating lodging by gender increases the problem.

          4. Groove Bat*

            It takes a long time and a lot of practice to get even passably non-embarrassing at golf. That’s not something a couple of lessons can help with. Many people don’t have the time or bandwidth on weekends to devote to getting proficient enough. I, for one, would deeply resent that expectation.

        5. goducks*

          I think the fact that you’ve latched on to this as a solution on a couple of comments really shows the depth of the culture problem in your workplace. Fundamentally, you see nothing wrong with this golf trip, other than that some of the women don’t want to play, and you feel like you should find some token way to include them.
          The fact that you see this issue this way, and that it took until this year for you to even have women in the department speaks volumes about your culture and hiring practices. Did you ever consider that the reason so many of your sales staff are male and golfers is that you’re using a fair amount of bias in your hiring practices? I think if you really want to fix this, you need to give that some serious consideration.

            1. OP*

              One of the reasons I am “pro golf trip” is that golf is a common avenue where we can see and meet with customers. I played in a charity event this week where 100% of the participants were either our customers, or potential customers. That is not going to be the case at the bowling alley.

              So while I agree with a lot of what Allison said, I am definitely interested in continuing the trip if it could work, and work well for everyone involved. Bottom line is, for our sales team, if you play golf you are going to have an advantage in the marketplace. That is not our culture, that is our industry, or at least our industry in our region. So an event that encourages it doesn’t seem out of place, to me.

              1. goducks*

                This isn’t a sales event, though. It’s a reward. You continue to miss the point.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Exactly. If this is supposed to be an annual trip to reward sales members for great performance since they’re not eligible for the company bonus, why in the world would OP be clinging so hard to this when he knows there are at least a couple of sales members who wouldn’t view this as any sort of reward or perk? It’s tone deaf.

                2. JB (not in Houston)*

                  Exactly. OP, this trip isn’t training to allow your salespeople to network more effectively. If that’s what it was about, the company could just pay for golf lessons throughout the year. This is a perk in lieu of a bonus. You need to see the difference. On top of that, it’s a perk that includes bonding time with managers, so people who don’t participate, or who don’t participate in the same way, will not get that same type of face time with the people who have the authority to decide on the direction their careers take at that company. What you’re suggesting is not the fix for the company’s problem.

              2. Not Me*

                And do you really not see how that type of systemic gender bias in the industry has impacted women and your workforce?

              3. Fortitude Jones*

                So why can’t the sales members who want to golf to schmooze with clients do this on their own time? Why does this have to be the big trip that the group does to reward everyone’s performance?

              4. Bree*

                I know there are some fields where the kind of boys-club culture where golf is a huge bonding thing. But is it possible that – like your own team – your industry may also be diversifying, now or a few years down the road? If so, might be a good idea to get ahead of things a bit.

              5. Sunny*

                Then you really aren’t willing to see the issue for what it is (gender discrimination) and you’re not interested in fixing it to meet legal standards..

              6. Missy*

                Golf is a common event where you see and meet with customers. And it might also be something that the other employees do because there is so much of a culture in your workplace around it that people have just adopted it as “the answer”. And even if golf gives some sort of great advantage in your industry and area, that certainly doesn’t mean that everyone in the area golfs. Having a diversified sales team with different interests would almost certainly be better for the company than an office with nothing but golfers. As long as you have one or two salespeople at each charity tournament isn’t that enough? Wouldn’t having salespeople at other charity events (running, theater, volunteering) be a better plan?

                I wonder how many of your male employees truly love these golf outings and how many go along because of the feeling that it is a mandatory part of the culture and that they have to fake it to fit in? My parents are both in sales and both have worked in places where they have convinced their bosses that they LOVE the annual fishing trip/golf outing/gambling vacation/etc. when they actually would much rather be at home with the family.

              7. Psyche*

                Is the purpose of the trip to reward the sales staff or is it to force them to practice golfing? If the point is to have them practice golfing, be explicit about that and don’t try to pretend this is in lieu of a bonus. If it is a reward, pick something that will actually be a reward for everyone and not just some of the men.

                You can incentivize golfing outside of this trip. You can arrange a half day trip to the golf range. You can subsidize lessons for any sales staff that need them. Just be clear about why you are doing it and don’t try to combine it with the trip. Or don’t pretend that the trip is a reward.

              8. 200 Yard Drive*

                As a female sales leader and golfer, I support the OP and am surprised by the direction of the commentariat. Playing golf is an occupational hazard for sales professionals in many industries. I specifically learned to play golf as a young professional because I realized that not being able to play was going to lock me out of an enormous amount of professional opportunity with customers, within companies, and industries. I regularly play in charity tournaments, customer tournaments, industry golf events, and it is part of my job. The women need to learn to play golf to support their own professional advancement and opportunities, period.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  No, there’s no “period” here. There are many other ways these women can advance their careers without having to fake enthusiasm for something they don’t give a shit about (I know a few women in sales that take clients out to dinners or other sporting events to observe), and you don’t get to dictate how they do that. If you learned because you felt like that was the best option for you at the time, that’s on you. Do you. But this trip isn’t a working trip, it’s being presented as a reward or “bonus” for the team since they can’t partake in the company’s bonus structure, so how is it a reward for these women and the men who sit out because they either don’t like, don’t want, or can’t play golf?

                2. Detective Amy Santiago*

                  Or we could stop supporting a sexist, racist, and classist activity as a necessary part of being successful in business.

                3. Micklak*

                  What if you had a disability that prevented you from playing? Would it be Ok to bar you from your entire industry because golf is a part of the job?

                4. Observer*

                  In addition to what the others have said, you are missing a point here.

                  What you are saying is that women need to learn to golf, and if they don’t they simply are not eligible to the same rewards as the men are regardless of their performance.

                  That simply doesn’t fly.

                5. EventPlannerGal*

                  But that is not what this trip is for. If this company feels the way you do about golf, they could provide subsidised golf lessons throughout the year as an ongoing practice. But this is not a sales event, it’s an internal bonus trip which does not *have* to be about golf.

                7. RWM*

                  And what about people who *can’t* golf because of disabilities or injuries? Do you expect them to just not have that be the case for the sake of their professional advancement and opportunities? Or are you just OK with whole classes of people being fully excluded from your industry?

                8. OP*

                  I agree. Lessons, regardless of the trip, seem like a net benefit for any sales rep in our industry.

                9. Not Me*

                  Do the people in wheelchairs need to learn to play golf to support their own professional advancement too?

                  Seriously, it’s not a man vs. woman question. It’s an inclusivity question. You’re really missing the entire point if you don’t understand that.

                10. Don't punish the people who keep the lights on*

                  Occupational hazards are not rewards. This trip is supposed to reward good salespeople.

                11. yala*

                  ” I specifically learned to play golf as a young professional because I realized that not being able to play was going to lock me out of an enormous amount of professional opportunity with customers, within companies, and industries.”

                  Yeah, that….that’s a problem.

                  That’s a deep problem with the culture that really needs to be changed.

              9. Observer*

                Why would you want to do that? If you want your staff to be able to take advantage of what gold offers, offer free lessons.

                But how does a golf related “retreat”, that ALSO has a lot of other problems related to gender, do anything whatsoever to encourage engagement with clients? With or without golf?

              10. RUKiddingMe*

                But it won’t work for everyone. It will work only for the males. This is not a sales event, it is a reward. Find a way to reward everyone equally without all the sexist BS. And unless your business *is* golf don’t try to pressure (and it will feel like pressure guaranteed) the women into taking golf lesson, free or otherwise.

              11. Zoey*

                Dumb question but are you in golf industry/ adjacent to golf industry related sales? Because other than that it seems really odd that there is SO MUCH business happening on a golf course. For those with physical issues that prevent them from golfing how do they cope in this business model?

              12. Not So NewReader*

                If this is the case then one of your hiring criteria should be “must play golf”.

                Maybe your bigger question is how does our company exclude women? Answer that and the answer to the golf question will fall into place.

              13. Lora*

                I’m curious as to what is your industry?

                I’ve worked on both sides (as both a customer and a vendor) of a very VERY male-dominated industry that is thought to be quite antiquated and old fashioned. I’ve been through the whole networking and meeting in strip clubs thing, even in the 21st century. On the vendor side of things, from vendors who had only worked on the customer side at one job, or from lifelong vendors, the sales guys would 100% assure me that they KNEW their customers and their customers liked XYZ, even though I had decades of experience as an actual living breathing customer at several organizations….and I knew for an absolute fact these guys were full of crap.

                Three of the sales guys who assured me customers actually liked XYZ had in fact been banned from customer sites by the customers’ own security staff, but somehow their assurances were given more weight than my actual lived experience (see: sexism).

                In real life, if you survey the big financial decision makers in my field and ask them what sort of weekend retreat they’d most like, they’d probably say skiing, winery tours or homebrewing first, and second would be yoga or robotics (they LOVE watching our robots move, I don’t know why), further down the ranking would be some sort of volunteer activity – teaching science and math to kids is popular. Even the older upper class guys would say skiing or winery tours, for sure. When I think of the C-levels in my industry, lots are in Switzerland or Germany, where skiing, wine tasting, snowshoeing and hiking are more of a thing than golf.

                Things are changing quite a bit. Probably worth doing a survey of options, really.

          2. Mia*

            Agreed. I live in a fairly conservative area and even here, it would be odd for a company to be 100% male until very recently.

              1. OP*

                Is it that strange? Talking small teams here… 6 and 4 people.

                Heavily dependent on the field though. Not sure the last time I saw a male dental hygienist.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Yes, it’s strange. There are indeed fields that attract significantly more women than more men or vice versa (although that generally tends to be for reasons rooted in problematic biases as well), but sales isn’t one of them, certainly not the point that you could have gone years without women.

                  (And I have a male dental hygienist.)

                2. EH*

                  Yep, it’s strange. I’ve worked in heavily male and heavily female positions, and it was still considered weird to have a mono-gender team larger than 2-3 people.

                3. SaffyTaffy*

                  It’s really NOT dependent on the field, but on the individual company’s priorities. I do freelancing for small construction and chemical engineering firms and the sales teams I work with have always had at least 1 or 2 women, even on a team of 3 or 4. The only exception I can think of turned out to be a really bad company.

                4. OP*

                  I posted this below. Might need to be said again. Small teams, low turnover. In the last decade we have hired ~6 sales reps. 3 women in the last two years. 50% women in the last decade. The only three we are aware of in our two major cities.

                  I am trying. Change happens slowly.

                  We are leaving the the dental hygienists in the dust /s

                5. Lucy*

                  I work in a field which nationally has 90%+ men in one type of job and 90%+ women in another type of job. The only workplace I have ever encountered where either team was 100% one sex was where there was only one person in the team.

                  I should say that I read your letter in increasing horror. At one point I think my shrieks were audible only to dogs and cockroaches.

                6. DefinitelyAnon*

                  This reply is actually to Alison but we are out of nesting. Your comment, ” sales isn’t one of them, certainly not the point that you could have gone years without women.” is not true across all fields. My husband works in sales in a very specific technology field and I can assure you, not only is not strange to go years without women on your team, he has never had a women on his direct team in the past 10 years. When he has worked with women, which has been exceedingly rare, it is been a sales position, but not the type of position he has. While there may be all sorts of problematic biases that has led to a shortage of women in his particular field, it is certainly a much bigger issue to overcome than one his particular company can solve. It sounds as though OP is in a similar situation, although his specifics may differ. I’m sure this may be unfair of me, but I found your statement so dismissive, and not kind. There truly are industries within sales where this is absolutely true.

                7. DefinitelyAnon*

                  I wanted to add that when there have been women sales associates in the past–there has been one in the company for the entire territory. I know this is changing a little in some of the bigger companies, but not by as much as you might expect.

                8. RUKiddingMe*

                  It’s both strange and not at all representative of population ratio. There should be a roughly equal amount of women/males in any given job. Also my dental hygienist is a male.

                9. DefinitelyAnon*

                  @RUKiddingMe Except that actually isn’t the way most jobs are–nurses are overwhelmingly female, as are teachers, CEOs are mostly male, electrical/utility crews are mostly male, and while I personally have known quite a few female firefighters, only about 3% of firefighters are women. So there are many occupations which are very unequal.

        6. Librarian of SHIELD*

          OP, please look at the many comments made by people who would not be interested in learning to play golf for work events. It’s fine if you want to offer lessons for people who want them, but you really do need to think of other kinds of networking and social events as your company continues to grow. Golf cannot remain your company’s primary method of networking, period.

          1. OP*

            I should have clarified. This is not our only means of networking. We basically go wherever our customers go. We have corporate memberships to all the area museums, ballets and symphonies. We have season tickets to several local sporting events. We attend and offer our employees tickets to MANY charity and social events. We pay for our employees civic clubs dues.

            But historically the golf trip was the only “trip” type event we have put on specifically for our sales team.

            1. Librarian of SHIELD*

              And that trip gives employees face time and networking opportunities within your own company in ways that free ballet tickets or museum passes don’t. If you’re planning a trip as a networking and bonding activity for your team, it’s a really bad idea to base that trip on an activity that not everyone on your team is able to participate in.

              Again, if golf really is that important to your industry, then offering lessons to your staff can be a really great idea. But as a reward or a team bonding experience, I think you should consider other possibilities.

              1. Hijos de Sanchez*

                it’s a really bad idea to base that trip on an activity that not everyone on your team is able to participate in.

                But OP is trying to find a way to ensure that everyone on the team is able to participate.

            2. RUKiddingMe*

              But not all of your sales team wants to do it. Let it go and find something else. Stop holding on to this like a dog with a bone. Find something else.

                1. Penny Parker*

                  A “little time”? It is 2019! Your time should be up by now. Stop supporting an exclusive activity — it is sexist, racist, and classist! Join the time period! I cannot count how many hundreds of thousands of times I have heard men make that statement, and they STILL have not caught up with the time period. Your exclusionary activity is way past time to be stopped.

                2. Elaine*

                  It’s good you’re actively seeking advice.

                  My grandparents (women AND men) all played golf, tennis, went ice skating, skied, and went ballroom dancing. It’s what all young adults in the upper Midwest who had any disposable income did. Most golf courses were public and affordable and still are where I’m from.

                  I am a corporate, professional woman and HATE shopping and would hate the idea of shopping while my colleagues were networking. Yikes!

            4. Detective Amy Santiago*

              These are the big takeaways I hope you will glean from this post:

              1. Providing golf lessons for any sales staff who is interested is a good idea since your salespeople are frequently invited to participate in golf outings with clients.
              2. The reward trip needs to be more inclusive and should not focus on golf or replaced with cash bonuses.
              3. Your organization may have some cultural issues surrounding hiring that are worth examining at a higher level.

              1. OP*

                Thank you. Hiring practices have improved dramatically in recent years. But culture isn’t as easy to change.

                1. mountainshadows299*

                  So… If, instead of hiring on half a team of women, you hired on half a team of men who simply didn’t like golf (or let’s say any sport) and were voicing dissension about having to golf for your annual “reward” trip, would we all be having this same conversation? Because my feeling is no based on the nature of your responses. (Though you clearly had that one dude who tolerated going with you all on your trips because he could drink beer and think about his life choices in the golf cart while fervently wishing he were somewhere else). They could all “choose” not to go, but then they are forfeiting their right to their “bonus” since your corporate structure doesn’t allow for anything but this reward trip. I mean… Since you can’t think of LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE that could be a reward, it saves the company money, amiright?

                2. OP*

                  Yea that is pretty accurate. Only reason we are here is that it is 100% of our female staff that don’t play.

                  But if a sizable group of our staff of any gender didn’t play, we would likely get to this point eventually.

                3. Lora*

                  “culture isn’t as easy to change.”

                  You are 100% wrong about this. The way that culture gets changed is, a new CEO comes in who doesn’t golf and announces that from now on the trip will be changed to an island cruise or whatever instead. Culture is set at the top, always.

                  This is why it’s so important for women managers to help the women lower in the hierarchy. Current head of my department is female, and we don’t do ANY of the traditionally male boys club things here that I’ve seen happen regularly at other companies. Why? Head of Department doesn’t enjoy it. She enjoys travel, so a lot of team building and networking things are planned for travel destinations.

            5. Creag an Tuire*

              We basically go wherever our customers go. We have corporate memberships to all the area museums, ballets and symphonies. We have season tickets to several local sporting events. We attend and offer our employees tickets to MANY charity and social events. We pay for our employees civic clubs dues.

              I feel like I have some alternatives to your golf trip right there.

              1. MCMonkeyBean*

                Yes, we just had our quarterly social yesterday and it was at a baseball game. It’s a great social in my opinion because you really don’t even have to care about baseball. They rent the “party deck” and give us catered lunch and we all eat and chat while the game goes on and some people can choose to pay more attention to the game if they really care to but most people are just chilling and socializing.

                And then everyone tends to leave our socials at like 2 or 3 so it’s nice to just get a couple of extra hours for yourself in the evening :)

            6. Ethyl*

              OP, you keep conflating clients inviting your sales team to go golfing with this golf trip. They are not the same thing, don’t have the same problems, and you can’t fix them the same way.

              1. DefinitelyAnon*

                But I think it’s fair to point out that in the past it wasn’t an issue, and was all kind of the same thing. People on his team golfed, they networked with clients by golfing, they liked to golf and hence, the reward trip was born. Now that there are members of the team who do not golf, this is more obvious that networking with clients and how to reward the members of your team are actually 2 separate things, but I can see how easy this was to overlook in the past.

        7. Oaktree*

          This is a terrible idea, unfortunately. There are all sorts of reasons why not; but among them is that some people physically cannot play sports (even golf). Don’t offer people golf lessons.

          Just let go of the golf thing already- it’s 2019; the boys’ club and its activities are going to have to change.

          1. Rose*

            That’s not the way the world in many places works Oaktree, but I appreciate the optimism.

            1. Oaktree*

              Huh? I’m fully aware that that’s “not the way the world works”; I’m a woman working in a corporate environment. My point is that OP needs to make changes because the world is what it is, and we should be working to make it less so. I hope that comes across to you not as optimism (because it should be obvious to anyone that it’s not) but rather as desire for change. Your condescension is neither necessary nor appreciated.

              1. Rose*

                I’m a woman working in a corporate environment too and to me saying ” the boys’ club and its activities are going to have to change” is optimistic. I’ve had my job 13 years and of course I have a desire to change things and some things I have gotten that change but your use of the words “have” has not been proven to be based in reality in my experience. They don’t HAVE to do jack sh*t unless someone is willing to sue.

          2. OP*

            Honestly. If we rule out ANY activity because some hypothetical person may not be able to do it…. I cant get on board with that.

            Obviously accommodations should be made, but why preemptively rule out options that may work for the whole team?

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              The problem with that is someone may not be entirely comfortable sharing why an activity does not work for them. Invisible disabilities are a thing that exist.

            2. Creag an Tuire*

              Honestly. If we rule out ANY activity because some hypothetical person may not be able to do it…. I cant get on board with that.

              How hard is it to just have a “retreat” at a resort, my dude?

              Most resorts can accommodate everyone including persons w/disabilities.

              1. PlainJane*

                I came here to suggest this. Plan a trip that can include a variety of activities, from golf to lounging by the pool, with enough unstructured time to accommodate a variety of interests. Have events during the trip that bring people together for networking – meals together, maybe happy hour. But make the trip and the destination as inclusive as you can, so everyone feels welcome and has fun. Otherwise, it’s not a reward – it’s yet another work obligation that reminds some people that they don’t fit in, and the brass don’t care.

              2. I AM a lawyer*

                That’s what my employer does. The firm books a resort. We do a small amount of training, the executives have a meeting, we have a bunch of free time on Saturday to stay at the resort and get a massage (company-funded) and hang out at the pool, or to go do any touristy things we want. Spouses/significant others and children are invited, and the company provides child care and activities during the two dinners (Friday and Saturday night). Some people organize to play tennis or golf but no one is expected to do either.

                1. Elaine*

                  Sounds kinda nice, but I really don’t want to be in a swimsuit at a work event, ever.
                  I’d prefer activities where clothes stay on. :)

              3. TacocaTRacecar*

                I’m late, so I doubt anyone will see this, but I’m genuinely curious: how would this resolve the issue of the men bonding together by subsequently all deciding to golf together, while the women either feel like they need to join or be left out?

                1. katelyn*

                  the key would be management not going golfing with the boys when there were other non-golfing activities. If it’s really a networking time then it’s management’s job to ensure everyone has an equal chance, and the easiest way to do that would be to shun the links this time and make it clear that the networking will be off the golf course going forward.

              4. Aitch Arr*

                Right??

                My sales team’s annual Presidents’ Club (for the top performers each year) is always at a swanky resort that has plenty of options from swimming to spa treatments to outdoor sports (including golf! *gasp*). It’s also located in a fun, warm-weather city. The retreat also includes a cruise, a dinner, and some touristy excursions. Of COURSE they will plan some rounds of golf, but it’s not part of the ‘official’ itinerary.

                For what it’s worth, my sales team of 120 employees is 42% women. I work for a tech vendor.

            3. Batgirl*

              Any activity? I think the main issue is that golf is such a company tradition and so ingrained that EVERY other activity is ruled out by default. If it was just a day at a resort or a different general social activity each year, it would be more flexible to change and you could accommodate every future employee by being open to that change.

            4. Hijos de Sanchez*

              If we rule out ANY activity because some hypothetical person may not be able to do it…. I cant get on board with that.

              I fully agree with this. There are posters above who suggest things like hiking or rafting trips. Not everyone can do those things. (Wasn’t there a letter about someone who objected to going on a rafting trip.) Other posters were suggesting things like concerts. But some people are hard of hearing and may not enjoy a concert. Not all activities appeal to everyone all of the time.

            5. Not So NewReader*

              Why does there have to be a group activity? I feel I give enough time as it is and I don’t enjoy “mandatory fun”.

              People are asking have the women been surveyed about golfing. And I have to add, have the men been surveyed? Just because a person (male or female) is doing a particular activity does not mean they like it or they are having fun. How do you know if the person is answering truthfully or putting the down answer they think the company wants to hear? Is golfing truly a good use of company funds?

              Since this is a mandatory activity are their clubs and other equipment a business expense for tax purposes?

              1. Triplestep*

                This describes how I feel as well, and I do participate in “mandatory fun” because I think it’s good to mix with my co-workers on occasion, most of whom I genuinely like. I mentioned elsewhere that it’s likely not even all the men enjoy this event, but it’s so ingrained in the culture (to the point where OP said in the comments that actively NOT liking it would be a “red flag”) how can anyone go against it? OP also says the office is already buzzing about it six months in advance – well people don’t only buzz about things they like. They also buzz about things they dread.

            6. Vicky Austin*

              Because clearly golf isn’t an option that works for the entire team, or else you wouldn’t have written in the first place.

          3. DefinitelyAnon*

            I actually think it’s a great idea–it’s completely voluntary, a lot of their clients still ask OP’s team members to golf, and this way the company is proactively giving a hand to those who want to be included but didn’t have the opportunity to learn. This should not be tied in any way to the golf trip however. That needs to change to include everyone.

        8. Rose*

          Another woman who would love golf lessons so +1. In my field a lot of people play so it would be to my benefit even if I went to another job. You could do a surveymonkey with different options and people could vote anonymously.

        9. Observer*

          No, look into lessons for whoever wants as a SEPARATE benefit that is completely voluntary. Because that gives your salesforce a chance to learn something that could be useful to them as salespeople.

          But, you still need to change this up. There are just too many problems here. Yes, there is the history of golf, but it’s also the whole set up as well. It’s just not viable.

        10. RUKiddingMe*

          So your sales staff participates in golf events during working hours? Does this include women in sales or just the guys?

          1. OP*

            Although it has not included the women yet, that is through no policy of ours. If they were golfers they would have equal access… which is why the lessons strike me as a positive. These are invitations from outside the organization.

            We also don’t ever send non golfing males to play in these tournaments during work hours.

              1. OP*

                This same scenario can apply in a million different ways. Having the same interest as a client allows you to connect. Golf is one common area, there are others. It makes no sense to disallow the golfers from connecting with clients in that way because we also employ non-golfers.

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I am not sure all the different ways that sales people connect with their clients but why can’t one of those ways be the focus of a trip? Why does it always have to be golf? I bet there are plenty of clients who do not golf.

                2. RUKiddingMe*

                  Are there no other ways for clients to connect aside from golf?

                  That aside, we are talking about this trip here. It is a bad idea to have any activity that has the potential to exclude certain populations, legally protected populations I might add, in order to get a perk for only a certain group of people. Find something else.

        11. Anonyish*

          It sounds like offering your women (and other men who don’t play) sales staff the opportunity to learn golf entirely separately from this trip could be a benefit to them, since otherwise they are de facto being discriminated against by male coworkers being able to do this, but that’s separate from it being the reward trip.

      6. Sarah N*

        I totally agree with this! Golf is a great mixed gender sport, especially with how you have it set up so that it’s not super competitive/elite level required. This isn’t like expecting women to play tackle football with their male colleagues! Lessons would be a great opportunity to learn a skill and then they can participate in the networking opportunities going forward.

          1. OP*

            I disagree. Golf as an organization is very pro women participation. Most area courses have women preferred days, tournaments etc. It is one of the few sports you can enjoy if you are terrible or very talented… or anywhere in between.

            1. Washi*

              It seems like you have a very deeply felt love of golf that is getting in the way of seeing what folks are saying here. Can you replace it in your mind with like, water polo?

              Water polo could be fun even if you’re bad at it for some people. Others, on the other hand, have disabilities, or due to socioeconomic reasons didn’t learn how to swim, or don’t want to be That One Person who is really bad at water polo. And no amount of insisting that water polo is inclusive and everyone has access to it now will change the long history of who has and continues to enjoy it.

              1. Hijos de Sanchez*

                It seems like you have a very deeply felt love of golf that is getting in the way of seeing what folks are saying here.

                I think you mean “what some folks are saying here,” because you are ignoring and marginalizing the comments of people like me and SarahN and Rose who are looking for ways to make golf more inclusive. And I am not Anglo, by the way.

                OP, I think this blog is a valuable resource but Allison is not the be all and end all of everything. That’s extra true when it comes to any kind of company outing, which always gets killjoys complaining. Go with what you think is right. I applaud you for trying to make golf a more inclusive activity.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                “It seems like you have a very deeply felt love of golf that is getting in the way of seeing what folks are saying here.”

                Yes, this. And posters here are reacting to how entrenched this is, sort of a golf or die mentality. And this is the exact reason for the rebellion.

                It feels like people go to your company to golf primarily and to earn a paycheck as a distant second. I go to work to do actual work, not to improve my golf game.

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              But you’ve already indicated that at least some of your female coworkers don’t feel this way, so how can you say this with certainty?

            3. revueller*

              /Golf as an organization is very pro women participation/

              Ask your female employees if they feel that way. The answer may surprise you.

              1. EmKay*

                He won’t ask, and he wouldn’t listen to the answers if he did. This guy is clearly hellbent on keeping the golf trip and forcing everyone to participate or gtfo.

                1. RUKiddingMe*

                  Remember the letter from the guy who wanted an all male trip to the beach or something. Wasn’t that about golf as well?

                2. OP*

                  That just isn’t true. I agree with Allison that this trip isn’t going to survive the near future.

                  But the very strong women against all things golf thing has surprised me. There are many women golfers at all of our local courses, so I guess I never saw it that way.

                3. Ethyl*

                  “But the very strong women against all things golf thing has surprised me.”

                  That’s because you aren’t reading or understanding clearly — it’s not “women against golf,” it’s “golf has historically been against women (and racial and religious minorities, and the poor, and the disabled….).”

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  @ Ethyl. Right on.
                  Golf excludes many groups of people from a historical perspective, but it also appears that it is excluding women in OP’s own company. If I had any interest in golf, these exclusions would stand alone to cure me from ever being interested in it.

                5. Elaine*

                  I think this might be a cultural thing. Where I grew up, public courses abounded and pretty much everyone (a generation ago) played golf, and tennis, and skiied, and skated, etc.
                  Of all socioeconomic classes.

            4. Lizzy May*

              You know why golf has all that pro women stuff? Because they shut women out for years and years and are now furiously playing catch-up. (Tell me how pro-women Augusta National is and when that started, for example) So you shouldn’t be surprised when women here are telling you that golf doesn’t feel inclusive to them and you should care about that.

              1. merp*

                Ugh I’m not trying to be unkind to the LW but this point is so so clear and important and I’m really getting a sense of willful ignorance from the insistence elsewhere that “women like golf, really!”

                1. Micklak*

                  Yeah, I appreciate the OP asking the question and taking part in the discussion, but as a person who isn’t interested in sports at all, it’s chilling to see the repeated claims that playing golf is a reasonable expectation for the industry and that women just need lessons to learn to enjoy it. It’s so clearly the people in power deciding what people should like and how they should behave. I’m surprised there hasn’t already been a lawsuit.

                2. Not Me*

                  There probably hasn’t been a lawsuit yet because they hadn’t hired any women yet. They’re getting closer to a lawsuit every day.

              2. Aleta*

                Hugely agreed. I’m a cyclist, and we have a lot of pro women stuff like that. Men coooonnnnnnnssstaaaantly bring it up whenever we try to talk about terrible things (sexist commentators, sexual assault, sidelining of women’s fields, even STOPPING WOMEN’S RACES BECAUSE THEY CAUGHT UP TO THE MEN), as if there are no problems because look! You have a field (that’s cats 1-5 all together) and a femme/trans/women day! Obviously there is no discrimination whatsoever and we’re completely equal.

              3. Hijos de Sanchez*

                Because they shut women out for years and years and are now furiously playing catch-up

                Just because you don’t like golf (as I said earlier I don’t love it even though I learned it) doesn’t mean you get to sideline the accomplishments of golfers like Nancy Lopez, who was a great role model for all Hispano/a athletes and female athletes, especially here in New Mexico. Even non-golfers admired her. And there are other professional golfers of color from New Mexico, like Notah Begay. Maybe some of your own stereotypes about what golfers look like are showing.

                1. Jasnah*

                  Lizzy May: Historically, golf has excluded women players and made it hard for women to play. Now golf is trying to compensate for that discrimination by promoting women in golf.

                  Hijos de Sanchez: Look at all these talented women in golf!

                  You’re literally proving the point. Just because female golfers exist or are talented doesn’t mean that the sport has not discriminated against them. Also golf is literally the keystone of the “good ol’ boys club” and has been a way for businesses to shut out and discriminate against women.

                  No one is saying women can’t or don’t play golf. OP is saying these women at his company don’t want to. Alison & commenters are saying that a men-only golf trip looks discriminatory, as does encouraging women to play in order to “keep up.”

            5. Natalie*

              “Golf as an organization is very pro women participation.”

              And yet a number of elite golf clubs didn’t invite their first female members until well into the 2000s.

            6. CR*

              It’s obvious you don’t actually want any advice and you just want to keep your precious golf trip without the inconvenient womenfolk ruining it.

              1. Middle School Teacher*

                This is completely right. OP, you wrote in because you want advice and, presumably, want to do the right thing. It was rightly pointed out to you that your organisation is going the right way for legal action. Does “but women love golf! Golf courses have women’s nights all the time!” sound like something that would convince a lawyer?

                1. OP*

                  Very helpful. Thank you.

                  My points about women and golf could be summed up like this. Golf is one of the few sports that equalizes every player ( through handicapped scoring). That allows anyone to play together and still enjoy the game. I know many women that plan, and regularly see many women playing. The women in my office happen to not play. I didn’t know there were such strong feelings about women being against golf. That is new to me.

                2. Captain S*

                  I am a woman who likes to badly play golf in my freetime and I would be massively insulted if I were expected to play with with coworkers as a “reward” – especially given that most of those coworkers are men.
                  The history of men + golf = networking = no women is not over-look-able and you’re perpetuating that culture.

                3. Richard Hershberger*

                  To my mind the issue is not golf itself, but that this event is a combination of fun retreat and networking with the big bosses. So if you want to do it right, you need to have some way that it serves both purposes. If you end up with an activity that some people don’t enjoy but do it anyway, you have failed. Why are they doing it anyway? For the networking. If you set it up so that everyone has fun, but only some get to network, you again have failed.

                  So what to do? Go to a resort with a variety of activities, and have the big bosses make sure to make themselves available for schmoozing in a variety of settings. If they are not on board with this, then this cannot work. The best you can hope for is that some people will smile as they grit their teeth. It would also mean that this is really for the big bosses’ benefit, giving them the opportunity to be schmoozed while doing what they consider fun.

                4. Middle School Teacher*

                  Replying to myself because of nesting limit.

                  OP, women aren’t against golf. There are lots of women who have commented here who play. I play. I used to SELL golf equipment (so, the best of both worlds!). The problem isn’t that women are anti-golf. The problem is that you have women who don’t (or can’t) play are it looks like your company is not even TRYING to level the field. The question isn’t “how do we get the chicks into golf”, it’s “how do we get everyone the same opportunities”.

                  I want to believe you have a good heart (you did write in, after all). But your suggestions in your letter were so awful and insulting. Give the women money and tell them to go shopping and have a fun time? Rent them a separate cabin? Were you just going to pat them on the head and tell them to run along and play while the menfolk Got Stuff Done?

                  As many (many) people have commented, you have two separate issues: the reward trip, and the business aspect. You really need to split them up to come to a solution.

                5. No golf for me*

                  Golf may equalize every player, but it does not equalize every person, as others have tried to explain. It has a history of exclusivity that informs the way a lot of people think about it.

                  For example, I am in my fifties and have never held nor swung a golf club, nor has my brother. Growing up, no one in our family played. Sure, today we can join the clubs our father and uncles were shut out of (we’re Jews) but can you see how to us golf might not be appealing and does not fee like a great equalizer? A lot of people see it the same way.

                6. Not So NewReader*

                  Well said, No Gulf for Me.

                  OP, what would it be like for you to sit there and know you HAD to do something at work that your parent, grandparent and great grandparent were not allowed to do? What if this one exclusion came with many, many other exclusions that marginalized and substantially injured your family? Would you still think this trip was fun, year after year after year…..

            7. Autumnheart*

              Golf course have women-preferred days and tournaments BECAUSE they used to be exclusive to men!

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Because government officials are watching and we now have reporting method SOPs.

            8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              Something to consider, OP, is that when a venue has a “ladies only” or “ladies preferred” event, that’s not generally a sign that they’re all that pro-woman on a day to day basis. They do these because of very low women’s participation on all the other days of the year.

              1. Washi*

                Yeah, is there “adult swim” at the pool because it’s mostly adults already, or because there are always a bajillion kids there? Same thing with golf.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                I see “ladies only or ladies preferred” and I pretty much figure it’s because of hoping to avoid legal issues that may or may not be there.

            9. Elysian*

              Someone once told me that GOLF was an acronym for “Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden.” I have no idea if that has historical truth, but it does seem to be the way the “sport” is viewed for a lot of people.

              1. SarahTheEntwife*

                99% of the time if something has been around since before 1900 or so, it is not an acronym. But it’s a very pointed folk etymology.

                1. Elysian*

                  Yeah, the person who told me that had a straight face and thought it was the truth – it was said as a way to discourage me from expressing interest in golf. I was being told it wasn’t my place. And there’s enough exclusionary history around golf that the idea that it would be the truth (and that people would easily believe it to be true) I think says all it needs to say.

              2. Malice Alice*

                That seems to be a backronym rather than fact, but there’s a reason that people looked at it like that.

            10. Observer*

              Really? Is that why one of your staff suggested being a “cart girl”? And that you have nothing else from the rest of the staff except for a suspicion that the woman might not go for that?

              Please pay attention to what you are being told. People here are trying to help you, but you need to be willing to listen to them AND your staff – what they say and what they DO NOT say.

              1. RUKiddingMe*

                But, but all the silly girls at his work and on here…he’s trying so hard to mansplain to us how we’re (and they’re) just wrong.

                1. OP*

                  I am here looking for an alternative. The potential trip is 6 months away. Yes, in my mind an ideal solution would be find a way to make it work for everyone, but I recognize that is not likely.

                  This got weirdly hostile IMO.

                2. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  It’s because further down you’ve been ignoring the loads of women telling you why this isn’t okay, and you’re ignoring the answer I gave you that you wrote in for (you certainly don’t have to take my advice, but you’re not really engaging with it in any meaningful way).

                  I appreciate your comment below noting that your heart is resistant to change, and that’s the piece that’s frustrating people here.

              2. RUKiddingMe*

                The whole “cart girl” thing keeps pissing me off…even all these hours later.

                The “cart girl” (grrrr at “girl”) would hand out beers and stuff…like a “helper/servant/assistant” instead of networking like an equal colleague.

                I feel the need to take a sledgehammer to a bunch of golf clubs right now.

                2. Quoth the Raven*

                  It rubs me the wrong way, too. Mostly because I have been in that position where I’m just there to be the “helper” in a way that feels absolutely condescending. And I’ve been brought along for events as the token woman who is treated like eye candy and I’m expected to play along because that’s the way it’s always been. It pisses me the hell off.

            11. EventPlannerGal*

              There is no “golf as an organisation”. Golf is a sport. There are organisations which play golf, which vary wildly in how they view women. At my local, world-famous golf club, I as a woman am not permitted on the premises.

              1. Camellia*

                Seriously? Not permitted on the premises? How do they justify/get away with that???? This makes me want to take up golf and move to your town and hire a lawyer…

                1. Ego Chamber*

                  Something-something members-only social club probably. It’s bullshit but it fits snugly within the established loopholes (how weird, right?!).

            12. Welcome to 2019*

              Why did you even ask for advice if you were going to mansplain all over any critique you got?

            13. Robm*

              That’s as maybe but this trip of yours is problematic.

              You’ve already spotted that it excludes women. We can add people with physical impairment to the list and (as some of the language around this makes your trip sound like boozy dudebros I’m afrai)d, people who might have religious or health reasons to avoid alcohol-fuelled events…

              I’m a “middle class” cishet male and I would rather gargle broken glass than play golf.

            14. RUKiddingMe*

              Not everyone likes or *is able to* participate…even males. This is a non inclusive, sexist, classist experience that is supposed to be a perk but it excluding members of your team. It has a long sexist history that any decent lawyer would be able to show a court when your company is sued into oblivion for discrimination based on a protected class (at least one). Find something else.

              1. Desperate for impact*

                “It has a long sexist history that any decent lawyer would be able to show a court when your company is sued into oblivion for discrimination based on a protected class (at least one). Find something else”

                Can you cite an example of where a company was held liable for the mere fact of holding a golf tournament, please? (I assume that should be easy for you, since companies hold golf events frequently and “any decent lawyer” working on contingency could make money by suing them “into oblivion.”)

                I would add that some of the “solutions” proffered by OP (separate shopping activities for women, “cart girls” etc.) would expose the company to liability. Any activities that are expressly segregated by sex are likely to do that. But I am exceedingly skeptical that holding an annual golf tournament, without more, would be actionable.

                If you tried to litigate the golf tournament, you would probably need to rely on a “disparate impact” analysis, i.e., that the racially neutral policy of inviting everyone to play nonetheless had an adverse impact on protected classes, such as women. But disparate impact analysis is very complex.

                First, you have to show that there is disparity; that “some golf clubs historically discriminated against women” doesn’t mean the entire sport is inherently suspect, despite what some people are arguing here., and the fact that three new hires dislike golf does not, itself, say “disparity” to me, because your sample size is too small. You also have to show that the impact is “significant” and that there is a causal link between the activity and the impact. I think those last two prongs would be particularly difficult to overcome.

                1. Desperate for impact*

                  Sorry for the double post. If the moderators would like to delete one, that is OK. The post I am replying to was the first draft, and the one below the version I intended to post. But they’re almost identical.

                2. RUKiddingMe*

                  No I cant cite anything. Also INAL. It seems to me though that any activity that woukd exclude certain populations, protected populations would create a hostile work environment. I mean a legally defined hostile work environment, not just people not getting along.

                  Even if we leave out the historic, and current sexism inherent in golf as a specific thing, there are other protected classes if people who can not participate in a sport, golf or otherwise who would lose out by not being able to participate.

                  Merely bring there as a helper (i.e. “cart girl) would not only not give them equal access but would also make them seem less professional, less serious, etc. ergo coloring management’s perception of them and potentially stifling their advancement.

                  Also, I’m not the only one here commenting that sees this, so yanno I think a judge, jury, the EEOC, et al. would likewise see that this kind if thing is ill advised st best and likely violates the law.

              2. Desperate for impact*

                “It has a long sexist history that any decent lawyer would be able to show a court when your company is sued into oblivion for discrimination based on a protected class (at least one). Find something else”

                Can you cite an example of where a company was held liable for the mere fact of holding a golf tournament, please? (I assume that should be easy for you, since companies hold golf events frequently and “any decent lawyer” working on contingency could make money by suing them “into oblivion.”)

                Now, some of the “solutions” proffered by OP (separate shopping activities for women, “cart girls” etc.) would expose the company to liability. Any activities that are expressly segregated by sex are likely to do that. But I am exceedingly skeptical that holding an annual golf tournament, without more, would be actionable.

                If you tried to litigate the golf tournament, you would need to rely on a “disparate impact” analysis, i.e., that the facially neutral policy of inviting everyone to play nonetheless had an adverse impact on protected classes, such as women. But disparate impact analysis is very complex, and it is not self-evident you would win.

                First, you have to show that there is disparity. That “some golf clubs historically discriminated against women” doesn’t mean the entire sport is inherently suspect, despite what some people are arguing here. That three new hires dislike golf does not, itself, equal “disparity,” because your sample size is too small to infer that all women dislike golf or are bad golfers.

                You also have to show that the impact is “significant” and that there is a causal link between the activity and the impact. I think those last two prongs would be particularly difficult to overcome. That is especially true because the company is explicitly encouraging women to join the tournament.

                1. RUKiddingMe*

                  Regarding the (this particular one) sample size, I think that on a team of 10-15 with 3 of them being *one particular class* of people that the impact matters. If there are 15 and 3 are women, that’s 1/5…20% of the team negatively affected.

                  But you know what…forget sexism, ageism, classism, ableism, and any other ism. To be so married to doing *one particular thing* that it will exclude a not insignificant number of your staff/coworkers and to keep trying to make that one thing work when it clearly is problematic, instead of just evolving and accepting that this is how things are now and that *you have to think about the staff holistically… is just a shit thing to do. Full stop.

                  *the general “you”

                2. Desperate for impact*

                  “No I cant cite anything. Also INAL. It seems to me though that any activity that woukd exclude certain populations, protected populations would create a hostile work environment.”

                  1. This particular outing isn’t excluding anyone (except perhaps non-golfers, but those aren’t a protected class). At best, there was some brainstorming about giving the female employees some shopping vouchers. That idea was misguided, but never went beyond the brainstorming stage. Even “cart girl” originated the idea herself. There is every indication that That leaves us with:
                  2. You’re seriously going to say that a golf outing *to which everyone was invited* creates a hostile work environment?

                  To be clear, I’m speaking about the golf outing in isolation, here. They may be other examples of behavior that creates a hostile work environment at this company. I suppose if there were enough brainstorming of sexist ideas, that might create a hostile work environment (from the facts we have, this one instance isn’t remotely enough).

                  “there are other protected classes if people who can not participate in a sport, golf or otherwise who would lose out by not being able to participate.”

                  If you’re arguing that the basis of the lawsuit would be disability, in that some disabled people can’t participate in golf, you’re still back to the disparate impact analysis, and it’s unpersuasive for the reasons I suggest above. There’s also a rule of thumb called the “80% guideline” (meaning essentially that the disparate impact needs to cause selection rates to be less than 80% of the advantaged group), and I doubt the disability theory would pass that test.

                  Your theory would essentially prohibit every kind of team-building event that involves any kind of physical exertion, even a 5K charity walk. That is an absurd result and not the kind of activity that anti-discrimination law is intended to address.

                  “Merely bring there as a helper (i.e. “cart girl) would not only not give them equal access but would also make them seem less professional, less serious, etc. ergo coloring management’s perception of them and potentially stifling their advancement.”

                  Possibly, but I think most people have said that the cart-girl idea is a bad one. There’s also the problem that the woman in question (foolishly) volunteered to be a cart girl, and the question about whether a one-off instance like this would be sufficient to prevail in a lawsuit.

                  “Also, I’m not the only one here commenting that sees this, so yanno I think a judge, jury, the EEOC, et al. would likewise see that this kind if thing is ill advised st best and likely violates the law.”

                  Bear in mind that juries decide questions of fact, not law. Your theory seems to be to convince a lay jury to disregard the legal matters brought up above and that that there’s a vague problem with golfing in general. I suppose stranger things have happened, since juries are unpredictable. But your theory assumes that (1) you get past a directed verdict and actually get in front of a jury, (2) you survive a motion notwithstanding the verdict, and (3) you survive appeal, where there’s no jury and which focuses on legal questions, not questions of fact. The US legal system has filters in place that makes appeals to the gallery unlikely.

                  The EEOC , which is an administrative law body, is not going to see an annual golf tournament, without more, as problematic for the reasons I’ve already cited.

                  “Regarding the (this particular one) sample size, I think that on a team of 10-15 with 3 of them being *one particular class* of people that the impact matters. If there are 15 and 3 are women, that’s 1/5…20% of the team negatively affected.”

                  But if even one women were a golfer, that would change the statistic drastically. That’s the point of sample size. To quote from the DOJ’s guide on Section VII disparate impact: “courts are comfortable rejecting particularly small disparities, or those based on very small sample sizes, without explaining the mathematical basis for their conclusions.” DOJ cites one sex discrimination case, Stout, where if even one more female applicant had received an interview, the percentage of women interviewed would have exceeded that of men, and the court therefore did not find disparate impact.

                  The reality is that golf tournaments are ubiquitous in corporate America. If holding a golf tournament were such low-hanging fruit, the plantiffs’ bar would already have targeted golf tournaments. Disliking golf, even for reasons relating to civil rights matters, is not a legal cause of action.

                  I respectfully suggest that if you are not a lawyer — or that if at the very least you cannot debate the issue using legal discourse (i.e., you need to cite actual statues/regulations/caselaw and apply them, rather than saying “a lot of posters agree with me”) — you are not in a position to tell OP that his company faces legal exposure merely for hosting a golf tournament.

                3. Desperate for impact*

                  “No I cant cite anything. Also INAL. It seems to me though that any activity that woukd exclude certain populations, protected populations would create a hostile work environment.”

                  1. This particular outing isn’t excluding anyone (except perhaps non-golfers, but those aren’t a protected class). At best, there was some brainstorming about giving the female employees some shopping vouchers. That idea was misguided, but never went beyond the brainstorming stage. Even “cart girl” originated the idea herself. There is every indication that That leaves us with:
                  2. You’re seriously going to say that a golf outing *to which everyone was invited* creates a hostile work environment?

                  To be clear, I’m speaking about the golf outing in isolation, here. They may be other examples of behavior that creates a hostile work environment at this company. I suppose if there were enough brainstorming of sexist ideas, that might create a hostile work environment (from the facts we have, this one instance isn’t remotely enough).

                  “there are other protected classes if people who can not participate in a sport, golf or otherwise who would lose out by not being able to participate.”

                  If you’re arguing that the basis of the lawsuit would be disability, in that some disabled people can’t participate in golf, you’re still back to the disparate impact analysis, and it’s unpersuasive for the reasons I suggest above. There’s also a rule of thumb called the “80% guideline” (meaning essentially that the disparate impact needs to cause selection rates to be less than 80% of the advantaged group), and I doubt the disability theory would pass that test.

                  Your theory would essentially prohibit every kind of team-building event that involves any kind of physical exertion, even a 5K charity walk. That is an absurd result and not the kind of activity that anti-discrimination law is intended to address.

                  “Merely bring there as a helper (i.e. “cart girl) would not only not give them equal access but would also make them seem less professional, less serious, etc. ergo coloring management’s perception of them and potentially stifling their advancement.”

                  Possibly, but I think most people have said that the cart-girl idea is a bad one. There’s also the problem that the woman in question (foolishly) volunteered to be a cart girl, and the question about whether a one-off instance like this would be sufficient to prevail in a lawsuit.

                  “Also, I’m not the only one here commenting that sees this, so yanno I think a judge, jury, the EEOC, et al. would likewise see that this kind if thing is ill advised st best and likely violates the law.”

                  Bear in mind that juries decide questions of fact, not law. Your theory seems to be to convince a lay jury to disregard the legal matters brought up above and that that there’s a vague problem with golfing in general. I suppose stranger things have happened, since juries are unpredictable. But your theory assumes that (1) you get past a directed verdict and actually get in front of a jury, (2) you survive a motion notwithstanding the verdict, and (3) you survive appeal, where there’s no jury and which focuses on legal questions, not questions of fact. The US legal system has filters in place that makes appeals to the gallery unlikely.

                  The EEOC , which is an administrative law body, is not going to see an annual golf tournament, without more, as problematic for the reasons I’ve already cited.

                  “Regarding the (this particular one) sample size, I think that on a team of 10-15 with 3 of them being *one particular class* of people that the impact matters. If there are 15 and 3 are women, that’s 1/5…20% of the team negatively affected.”

                  But if even one women were a golfer, that would change the statistic drastically. That’s the point of sample size. To quote from the DOJ’s guide on Section VII disparate impact: “courts are comfortable rejecting particularly small disparities, or those based on very small sample sizes, without explaining the mathematical basis for their conclusions.” DOJ cites one sex discrimination case, Stout, where if even one more female applicant had received an interview, the percentage of women interviewed would have exceeded that of men, and the court therefore did not find disparate impact.

                  The reality is that golf tournaments are ubiquitous in corporate America. If holding a golf tournament were such low-hanging fruit for discrimination claims, the plantiffs’ bar would already have targeted golf tournaments. Disliking golf, even for reasons relating to civil rights matters, is not a legal cause of action.

                  I respectfully suggest that if you are not a lawyer — or that if at the very least you cannot debate the issue using legal discourse (i.e., you need to cite actual statues/regulations/caselaw and apply them, rather than saying “a lot of posters agree with me”) — you are not in a position to tell OP that his company faces legal exposure merely for hosting a golf tournament.

                4. Desperate for impact*

                  I apologize again for the double post. I think something is wrong with my browser.

            15. Jules the 3rd*

              You realize you’re talking about the game where the elite US club didn’t allow women members until 2012, right? Augusta wouldn’t have allowed women even then if IBM hadn’t gotten a female CEO and threatened them in their pocketbook.

              Step back and take a breath, because golf is not friendly to women and minorities. You really have to start from that position, and look at what *is* friendly to them.

              1. Elaine*

                Is this a regional thing in the U.S. I wonder?

                Because in Minnesota/Wisconsin women have equally participated in golf since at least the 1940s. Most courses are/were public though. My grandma and her friends all golfed, played tennis, danced, worked, etc. equally with their men colleagues.

      7. Hummer on the Hill*

        And… what if the company hired someone who needed a wheelchair to get around? How would they participate in this networking and social club? It’s very 1950s, and it needs to be abolished.

      9. Sally Forth*

        This happened to me… in the EIGHTIES! I can’t believe it is still happening. Only 4 of 25 reps in my branch were women. To make it worse, those who didn’t go on the golf weekend had to handle phone calls for the reps who went.
        I am a decent golfer and my husband and I took a new female sales rep out with her husband and taught them technique and etiquette. Then when the details came out for the weekend, we signed up. Surprisingly, it was the younger reps who were asses about it. The older ones had wives in the workforce and were all for us going.
        Golf went well, the younger reps were passed out in bed by 9, and I cleaned up at poker.

    2. CR*

      Only if they actually wanted to learn to play. I don’t golf and if my only option on a work trip was being forced into lessons for a sport I hate, I would rather stay home.

      1. StillWorkingOnACleverName*

        Same. I’d turn down that option in a heartbeat. I have zero interest in golf.

        1. Rose*

          but do you work in an industry that 90% of the people in it play golf? I do, and that makes my interest go up. Just like if all my clients wanted me to use a specific type of software, I would learn it. Obviously it is sexist and has a hugely sexist history, but one person (me) isn’t going to change the situation.

            1. Rose*

              You not getting it is boggling mine. The OP just posted in a reply that their clients often invite staff who play golf to events too. Obviously they’re not going to tell a client “golf doesn’t work for us, figure out something else.” No, the people who play golf will go and those that don’t won’t. As I said, YES it’s hugely sexist, doesn’t change that it’s still very much A Thing.

              1. Anancy*

                It’s the same where I live Rose. Golf is A Thing, and it honestly is one of the easier ways here for women to network.

          2. Lilac*

            I work in an industry where all the engineers get invited to golf events multiple times during the year, and most women end up just working at the office because THEY ARE NOT INVITED. Golf is still a stupidly sexist sport that has huge division between who goes and who doesn’t, especially in the business world.

          3. SarahTheEntwife*

            But you’re using the software for whatever you’re producing for your clients, yes? Then it’s (often) reasonable for them to request that you use specific platforms. This is more like saying that because so many of your clients enjoy Nintendo products, you should become conversant in them as well so that you can join in their gaming tournaments.

            1. Rose*

              SarahTheEntwife – which would be a smart thing to do, no? Learning the Nintendo in your example?

          4. ChimericalOne*

            There’s a difference between learning something for the sake of improvement with clients and learning something so that your boss can say that you’re being “rewarded” when you are gifted with a trip to do that thing. I’d be extremely frustrated, personally, if my company insisted that a golfing trip was my “bonus” when it was in no way a reward to me. I’d be happy to take lessons & practice to be better at my job, but I’d be pretty resentful if it was then made into my “reward,” too.

            OP should put out a survey with a bunch of options. Make it anonymous. Tell folks you’ve decided to mix things up and have them rank their choices. Don’t blame the women or make them say something publicly if they want to be heard. Find out what folks want to do instead and do that. (Making sure that it’s not equally disliked by all the women, of course… Don’t pivot from golf just to go to a strip club, instead!) Problem solved.

            Here’s some ideas: Visit a National Forest. Visit a “destination city” and book a tour for the team. (Water tours in particular are great, if you’re near a body of water that’s amenable to such; e.g., Chicago, Baltimore, etc.) Take a trip to an amusement park. (Harley Davidson used to do trips to Hershey Park for its employees when I was growing up — besides the rides, they have food, games, & shows.) Do one of those new “escape rooms.” There are lots of things you could do that people would be equally excited about (and some would be more excited about!) that aren’t exclusionary in intent OR effect.

            OP, you clearly enjoy golf. The men on the team do, too — at least some of them probably do. Some are probably faking it to fit in or please their bosses, too. But that doesn’t mean you can’t find something else fun to do that will be a reward for everyone. The activity doesn’t have to be even slightly work-related to be justified. Most rewards are not.

            1. Camellia*

              But the survey could not include golf because it sounds like the majority of men would vote for that and then it would be ‘all good because this was democratic and the majority won!’.

              1. ChimericalOne*

                It could include golf. That way you’d know for sure if the women did or didn’t actually want to go golfing. The mechanism for picking the winner, however, would have to include throwing out any options that women (or any other minority group) universally panned, rather than relying on simple democracy.

                So, if they do a ranking system, maybe anything that was in the lower 50% for all the women would be tossed before checking for the top pick of the remaining activities, for example. Or if people were just asked to choose their top 3-4 favorites, pitch out anything that was chosen by zero women.

            2. Rose*

              Yes, I’ve said do a surveymonkey survey, there are a lot of non-golf options here.

          5. RUKiddingMe*

            If everyone took the same stance, one person isn’t going to change things (mostly no kidding) then nothing would ever change. However history is rife with one person making a huge difference. MLK for example. He didn’t do stuff alone, but him being him got others to wake up, stand up, and fight. So yeah go on…you do you, but don’t think that one person can’t change things.

          6. Jules the 3rd*

            I work in an industry where golf would improve my networking and career opportunities, and no, I am not willing to play / learn to play. I have a life, limited time, and team / organized sports are not anything I’m interested in. (I bike / swim for exercise)

            I’d rather learn actual work related skills, like Python.

      3. Wing Leader*

        Same for me, CR. No interest in golf, and I don’t care to learn. Honestly, that would seem a tad patronizing to me.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It’s very patronizing. I’m with Alison on this one – why should women have to learn a sport to be able to get the same opportunities for networking as the men? What if you’re a woman with an invisible disability (or even a visible one) that physically can’t participate – sucks for you, I guess?

          They just need to find another activity everyone can reasonably enjoy and participate in. I left a job a year and a half ago because of something very similar. I was in a division that only ever seemed to want to drink or do sports-related things, neither of which I’m a big fan of (I only drink socially once in a blue moon – family history of alcoholism), and anyone who didn’t partake in those things just didn’t move up no matter how good they were at their jobs. It was annoying, and I definitely called them out on that mess in my exit interview. Making people feel unwelcome and like they don’t belong is a really shitty thing to do to employee morale.

          1. Hijos de Sanchez*

            why should women have to learn a sport to be able to get the same opportunities for networking as the men?

            For the same reason men learn the sport.

            1. Actual Australian*

              Could you provide a sport that men learn to be able to network with women?

              1. Pixx*

                Imagine the outrage and temper tantrums that would ensue if men were told they had to participate in weekly knitting circles to network. And the yearly reward was a knit-a-thon.

      4. Amethystmoon*

        I’ve tried mini golf before and was pretty terrible at it, so it stands to reason I’d be terrible at regular golf. I would absolutely have no desire to participate, but it’s not really because of gender. Women golfers do exist, and some are very good at it. Personally though, I’d much rather play a chess game then a golf game.

        1. Cascadian*

          Mini golf might be a fun substitute for their current practices though. It’s golf-adjacent and supposed to be a bit silly, so everyone would be on more of an equal playing field.

      5. cmcinnyc*

        I think it’s a good option for the phase-out plan, though. The company will be offering something to all (there’s a guy that doesn’t golf, some of the golfers might love some instruction on improving, so it wouldn’t necessarily just be the three women taking a class). That gives the company something to do this year that is making a good-faith inclusion effort, and a whole year to come up with something for next year that doesn’t involve golf.

      6. Cercis*

        I look at golf like I look at bottled water – an environmental nightmare that can only be slightly mitigated. I would probably not choose to work for a place that sponsored a lot of golf stuff, but if it were my only choice of work places (which isn’t unheard of, sometimes there are only a few openings each year) of course I’d choose a paycheck over no paycheck. But while there, I’d avoid all golf crap as much as possible.

      7. Dust Bunny*

        Dear god, this.

        I love horses. Let’s go horseback riding. Never mind all the people on your sales team that might be allergic, out of shape, have bad back/sciatica/etc., be terrified of horses, not own appropriate clothing, etc.

        Things that might be described as sports are generally not good team events, and are definitely not good “rewards”.

        1. MrsCHX*

          Or the ski trips! (hint: skiing is white, very white) It’s meant to exclude while looking super innocuous.

          1. Ico*

            The purpose of snow sports is not to exclude. The fact that most of the people I know that enjoy them are white or East Asian is probably because the countries where those people tend to hail from are also the countries that get a lot of snow. It’s not a conspiracy.

          2. Elaine*

            In the Army, people who grew up where there wasn’t snow totally joined in trips the the Alps. They seemed to love learning, as did I (didn’t have money to downhill ski).

          1. RUKiddingMe*

            I have a massive horse phobia. No way no how would that ever be a reward to me.

        3. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          I was thinking horses. I would adore trail riding but I understand others do not. Why not jumping or eventing? There’s a sport!

      8. Kesnit*

        I find golf even more boring than baseball. I played putt-putt at the beach when I was a kid, but that is the extent of my interest in golf.

        I am very surprised that you have only had 1 man object to this golf outing in the past. I wonder if there have been others who really don’t want to go, but don’t feel they can say no.

        1. Batgirl*

          The non golfing guys who ‘watch and drink beer’ should have inspired sympathy and diverse activity years ago. That’s not even an inclusion thing….it’s basic hosting manners.

        2. yala*

          Y’know, I bet a little mini-golf (as part of a larger event) might be fun. Golf is emphatically not my thing, but put-put is just chill, goofy fun and you can do a lot of chatting and socializing during it.

    3. Justme, The OG*

      That would be a hard pass for me. This group may have tried and hate it. Or have no desire to learn.

    4. Alucius*

      I mean, you could, but that doesn’t really address the issue if the employees in question don’t want lessons, or are only doing it because they’re afraid to be perceived as “poor sports.”

      Another thing about golf is that it’s really easy to feel that you could embarrass yourself by swinging and missing, sending the ball straight sideways, especially for rank beginners. If you’ve have women breaking into a traditionally male part of this company, they may REALLY not want to engage in an activity in which they are not competent. A bad male golfer might find it easier to laugh off, while a new female golfer might see this as yet another hurdle to being taken seriously.

      1. AMPG*

        Just wanted to second this – my (male) boss and a (male) peer want me to join their foursome for a charity golf event. I’ve never golfed in my life, and they keep insisting that’s not a problem. But I’m the only woman at my senior rank in the company, and I don’t think they have any idea how much I don’t want to look foolish at an activity like this. And of course I also don’t want to have to spell it out for them.

        1. BadWolf*

          Or for them to all crowd around and “help” you — or god forbid, trying to physically help you do the swing.

          1. Sleepless*

            Oh, my, yes. I’m not a sports person. I’m particularly bad at volleyball, and that seems to be a common activity at big gatherings. I try my best not to play, but sometimes I get railroaded into it. At first, everybody chuckles at my badness. Then they laugh in greater amazement as they see just how bad I am. And then at some point the game stops while a well-meaning person comes over and tries to teach me how to hit the ball. Nope. Go away. I’m sitting back down now, as I was doing in the first place.

            1. AnonEMoose*

              I’m not big on sports in general, but I have a particular hatred for volleyball. Largely thanks to my experiences in phy ed class back in high school. Anyone who tried to railroad me into playing…let’s just say this would not end well…for them.

              Basically, I don’t like the ball coming down at me from above (or as I see it, flying at my face). Back in high school, I was somewhat serious about my participation in orchestra and playing piano…I did NOT want injuries to my hands/fingers. Especially not injuries caused by something I not only didn’t care about, but actively disliked.

              I don’t really do music anymore, but the loathing for volleyball in particular persists. Not a big fan of playing sports that involve circular objects of varying degrees of solidity traveling at significant velocity in general, really. But volleyball is definitely a hard pass.

              Badminton – that I’ll do. I still suck at it, but I’ll play. Because I get to use a racket, rather than my hands, and the birds are a lot less likely to hurt if they do hit me.

              1. RUKiddingMe*

                Badminton…that was my sport. I was pretty good at it back in the day. My other sport was reading. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

          2. Jadelyn*

            I literally physically flinched reading that. I could just so easily see that happening, and how do you get out of that without it being awkward as hell? Newp.

            Maybe it’s my own biases (my dad was hugely into golf) but I just absolutely hate golf and golf culture and everything it stands for. There’s just something so wildly…good-ol-boys-club about the whole vibe around it, and it has this level of unquestioned acceptance that honestly kinda baffles me.

            Like, can you imagine if a company with majority-female leadership held impromptu/unofficial business chats at a nail salon or something else stereotyped as feminine that way? Would anyone suggest that a male employee just suck it up and get his nails painted for the sake of being included in an event the other staff enjoy?

            2. Creed Bratton*

              THIS! It’s so helpful to flip things around: if it don’t sound right for one gender it ain’t right for another…regardless of tradition!

            3. Spencer Hastings*

              They sure wouldn’t…even though sitting around and getting your nails painted is much easier and, unlike playing a sport, not physically impossible or medically contraindicated for anyone (I think)!

                1. Socks*

                  Can’t that be accommodated pretty easily though? By moving around periodically? Vs. golf, which just straight up doesn’t work, with or without accommodations, if you have problems with the physical motions, a severe grass allergy, etc.

                  People with different types of sensory issues might not be able to have/enjoy a manicure or pedicure, I guess, like if they aren’t into people touching them, or if they’re sensitive to the smell of the nail polish. Nothing’s gonna work for everyone. But in general, I think sports might be more prone to being exclusionary than other activities, and are therefore a terrible choice for a mandatory work event.

                2. Kelly L.*

                  @Socks, no, I think the idea is to keep the nail bare so you can see if the skin underneath becomes discolored.

                4. Socks*

                  @Kelly L. Ohhhhhhhh I wasn’t thinking about that, but, yeah, you can not get polish put on, or just get a clear coat which I think might still be fine, so it’s still actually a pretty decent option. I mean, I’m not suggesting it as a replacement for OP, but, like, in general, I’m just kind of jazzed at realizing how inclusive nail salons are as an activity. I think that’s neat.

                5. nonegiven*

                  I thought it was risking cutting the skin on an appendage in a non medical setting.

                6. Ego Chamber*

                  @nonegiven | Yeah, my doctor’s concerns have always been about getting cuts on my feet/toes that could lead to infection. (I’m also not supposed to wear any kind of sandals or open-toed shoes or go barefoot ever or use a pumice stone on my feet but I do that last one because I ‘m a risk-taker.)

                  I’ve never been told not to paint my finger- or toenails, just no aggressive filing/clipping/etc.

              2. JHunz*

                I imagine the people we’ve talked about here with scent sensitivities would have a pretty bad time at a nail salon

                1. Quandong*

                  Yes! I’m one of those people who can get a headache from just breathing while walking past a nail salon.

            4. Socks*

              I dunno, at nail salons you can generally get a manicure without the paint, where they just massage your hands and clean up your cuticles and stuff. It’s very chill, even for men- and my mom did this when she was a sign language interpreter, and couldn’t have visible polish on her nails. A job-sponsored trip to get mani/pedis actually sounds really nice… In order for it to be the same kind of situation, it would need to be something that the men could fail miserably at, in addition to being historically unwelcome to men- doing each other’s hair, perhaps? Makeup… something?

              OP, trade off years! This year, mandatory golf trip. Next year, mandatory trip to Sephora before retiring to a cabin to braid each other’s hair. This is a very serious and no way stupid solution to your problem.

              1. Longtime Lurker*

                Okay, I nearly fell out of my chair at the mental image of business people braiding each other’s hair.

            5. CmdrShepard4ever*

              I wouldn’t say a male employee should go and get their nails painted, but I would say yes the male employee should suck it up and go to the nail salon. A lot of the networking happens from being in the same space and having time to talk. That can be achieved without having your nails painted.

              I say this as a cis hetro male who went to a nail salon for mani/pedis the morning of his wedding with his groomsmen. About half of the groomsmen actually got mani/pedis with me, a few did not but they still came to the salon to hangout/talk this was completely fine, one choose to not attend at all while I was disappointed they didn’t come hang out it was fine as well.

              I get social event is different from a workplace event but with 17 people it is going to be difficult to find a single activity that everyone will enjoy.

              In theory I know how to play golf but I am terrible at it and not really interested. I have friends who are pretty good, sometimes when we get together with they want to play golf. So I usually ride in the cart talking/joking/having fun I get the social experience of “playing” golf with out having to put in the “physical” effort of playing.

              1. ChimericalOne*

                Well, if you really want to find something that everyone enjoys, your best best is to rotate events. Do something out in the countryside one year, do something urban the next. Do something family-friendly one year, do something a little more upscale the next. Etc.

                The nail salon is mentioned as an example of an activity that’s heavily coded as female, but it’s not a perfect parallel. Firstly, you can’t really have a perfect parallel when you’re talking this kind of power differential — men have never been excluded from consequential meetings by the door of a nail salon. Secondly, though, getting your nails done isn’t really something you can fail publicly at the way you can with sports. A better example for that might be something like knitting, crochet, embroidery, etc., where you’re expected to produce some kind of finished product and it’s obvious if you’ve done rather poorly at it. And if you choose not to knit, you’re expected to run and fetch yarn, get everyone coffee, and generally just sit on the sidelines while everyone else bonds over shared challenges and admiring each other’s work. (And, every year, watching those people get promoted over you because of those bonds…)

                I don’t know if it’s even imaginable if you’ve never been there. But if you can’t imagine it, please trust the folks who’ve lived it.

                1. CmdrShepard4ever*

                  I definitely agree when it comes historical power imbalances between male/females and race it is impossible to create a perfect parallel. But I think the issue has been the lack of access to women and other minorities not the activity (yes some activities such as strip clubs are problematic in and of themselves). If the company hosted ice cream socials or another activity you want to substitute that were for white able bodied men only, I don’t think the issue would be the ice cream social but rather the fact that certain groups were excluded. Golf was/is used as a gatekeeper but it could have been bowling and the issue would remain.

                  With that said I do think rotating the annual retreat is a great idea, you can’t please everyone at once, but you can please people on a rotating basis.

        2. Ashley*

          As a female in a male field I have made a rule of only playing in scrambles. This takes the pressure off of being good. I also hate to say it but for networking it was worth biting the bullet for a cheapish set of clubs. Thankfully I had a female friend who liked to golf and she and I would go out for fun to get me into enough shape where I made contact with the ball. I still avoid it whenever possible but sometimes the networking makes it worth it.

          1. Micklak*

            I think it’s unfortunate, but OK, to make that decision as an individual. but work events aren’t individual decisions. This weekend is setting up a no-win situation for some of the employees.

            1. MCMonkeyBean*

              Yeah, there is a big difference between an employee looking around at the office culture and thinking “well this is a bummer but I guess it’s in my best interest to do this” versus and employER looking around and thinking “this isn’t working for everyone but it’s in their best interest to get over it and fall in line.” ESPECIALLY if the trip is supposed to be a *reward* and not some mandatory networking event. Honestly as soon as there was one person on the team not into golfing they should have changed this.

      2. Emily*

        Right!

        If I, a woman who doesn’t play golf, were a part of this company, I might reluctantly accept the offer of lessons/golfing trip – but the whole thing would be a source of dread rather than excitement. Not only would I be afraid of embarrassing myself (even if my coworkers were all friendly about it, it’s not that fun to be really bad at something), I would also feel like I needed to act like I was having a good time even if I was bored or frustrated.

        I feel like the offer of lessons might be well-received by some, but could also make it harder for disinterested people to bow out without fear of being perceived as a party pooper.

      4. CheeryO*

        YES to your second point. We have an annual charity golf outing at my agency. Until very recently, all of the participants were men, even though it’s open to everyone. Last year, a couple women decided to sign up, and I heard oh-so-hilarious stories about how terrible they were from multiple people. Well, guess what, we’re back to 100 percent male participation this year, because people couldn’t help but be jerks about a charity golf outing.

        1. Michaela Westen*

          Wow, this is the exact example of what OP’s company should avoid. Also I’m not a lawyer or golfer, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a gender discrimination suit coming.

        2. TechWorker*

          That’s so shit – also because I bet the worst men are also terrible but that’s not news because they’re men.

    5. Gaia*

      A decent option, but you still want to be careful that the women aren’t still missing out on the networking opportunities. Golfing is one of those things that historically has been used to solidify relationships between men and exclude women.

      Tread lightly here.

    6. Lizzy May*

      One of the real, unspoken, perks of the trip is facetime with management and with the owners. You won’t get that if you’re off on the driving range or practice green with a golf pro. The lessons will still cause the women to be separate and miss out on one of the reasons for the trip.

      1. Long Time Reader, First Time Poster*

        I audibly gasped when I read the first option: “Providing a separate cabin for the women, and offering them money (equivalent to the golf package spent on the men) to take a day trip and eat/shop/day trip in a nearby major destination city while the men are golfing.” — seriously, just no. And separate Lady Lessons is no better. Zero. None.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Yeah, same. Not that I think OP meant it this way, but it came off to me like, “We have to pretend to include the girls…hmm…girls like to shop, right? So we’ll send them on a shopping trip while us boys hit the links! That’s separate but equal, which is okay, right?”

          Not all women like to shop, any more than all men like to golf. Segregating activities based on gender honestly makes the whole thing worse.

          1. OP*

            The intention was to provide a more appealing option, with real benefits like time in a beautiful place with some extra cash that you didn’t have before you got there. That is all. There are a lot of commenters here expressing a distinct distaste for the sport, I assume they would rather the cash option if it were offered.

            1. Kesnit*

              It’s sexist stereotyping, which is the issue. Not all women like to shop. Not all women want to shop at the same places. Not all women want to spend the same amount of time at any given shop.

            2. Lizzy May*

              I would rather have the same face time with my boss as my peers. Some money for a weekend is not as valuable as the money I’d get thanks to raises and promotions.

              3. Ego Chamber*

                Except you’re in sales, which is commission-based and has no raises or promotions. It sounds like the most you’d get at this company is another chance to attend the golf trip, which is a timesuck that translates into no additional cash.

                Personally, I’d be angling for a bonus structure in sales. The only reason not to do it is because the CEOs want this company-funded golf trip and are using “rewarding sales” as a pretense to make it look slightly less shitty that they go on this expensive trip every year.

            3. Sunny*

              Can you please open your eyes and see this trip for what it is: a gender-based reward that excludes 3 members of your team? Doesn’t matter that the women could take lessons (patronizing) or get cash (same). IT EXCLUDES THEM. That’s the problem.

            4. revueller*

              Cash doesn’t replace a lost networking opportunity, which is what the golf trip is for your female employees.

            5. Librarian of SHIELD*

              But the point is that the people who are playing golf are getting bonding time with managers that the people not playing golf are not getting.

              I’m not interested in golf. I would not want the whole office to go on a bonding trip without me, even if I was getting extra money or a “separate but equal” style trip. I want equal opportunity for management to get to know and like me. When you put the women in a separate lodging and assign them separate activities during the day, they’re not getting the same benefits from the trip that the men are getting. This is sexism and you should not do it.

            6. Rose*

              OP, how about minigolf and a day at some place like Boomers? http://www.boomersparks.com/ As the interim year event? You’ll never please everyone but do a survey for feedback and go from there. At golf events I’ve been to there was a putting competition that I did even though I suck at golf.

            7. Lily in NYC*

              It’s not about golf. It’s about trying to make this “separate but equal”. How would you enjoy it if you worked for a fashion company and all of the women who worked there went for makeovers and networking and gave you a wad of singles and told you to go hang out at a strip club? It is just so stereotypically sexist that it almost feels like you are trolling us.

            8. Kathryn T.*

              Why don’t you replace the golf option entirely with another group event where everyone could be at roughly the same level? Burlesque dancing classes, perhaps, or a yoga retreat. Or a quilting cruise!

              1. Kathryn T.*

                I hear burlesque is very pro male participation. You know, as an organization.

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Most of the burlesque shows I attend have majority female audiences (and older people) – I was shocked by this. I thought for sure it would skew towards men, but one of my former friends, who is a burlesque performer, once hypothesized that she thinks men seldom attend these shows at the same rate as women because the dancers don’t get fully nude. Don’t know if that’s true or not, but it’s interesting to think about. Oh, and Boylesque is a thing.

            9. InfoSec SemiPro*

              I have worked for a company that actually did this. Golf trip for the real leaders, spa/shopping day for the ladies.

              I quit. Its not that I don’t like a spa day, but I like being promoted better.

              You need to find something that gives the rewards – all of them, including time with the team and leadership – to everyone regardless of gender, physical ability, or sports preferences.

              1. Michaela Westen*

                I wouldn’t like a spa day, unless it was only a massage and a nap. I research substances before I put them on my body, and I like to do my own grooming.
                I mention this as an example there is no activity that all women like.

            10. Observer*

              No, they would NOT – have you actually read and UNDERSTOOD what is being said?

              What they want is an option that gives them the SAME face time as the guys! Sending off to shop while the guys get to bond?

              Let me put it this way, you’re asking for a law suit. If the EEOC ever got this one, you’d be dealing with penalties so fast, you wouldn’t know what hit you. They may not be as active as some would like, but they are going going to love having such an easy case to take.

            11. Anyabeth*

              You know I manage a sales team that historically did a lot of golf as networking and bonding. When I took over I said “Welp, I don’t golf and neither does this person and this person” and chose something else. Did our avid golfer complain? He did! Did the dudes claim that all our customers love to network over golf? THEY DID. And guess what? We networked over lunches and different activities. We did other teambuilding activities. It was great. And our customers are actually thrilled because lots of them don’t like golf either. We built better relationships with the non-white, non-male, non Boomer customers and it turns out we had been neglecting them. So this box that it MUST be golf or the customers will revolt might not be as valid as you want it to be.

              1. Richard Hershberger*

                You make an excellent point: Reaching out to that portion of the customers who don’t like golfing, and who may or may not do it anyway, because it is expected. This is a market inefficiency, which spells opportunity!

              2. MsM*

                Yeah, I don’t want to age stereotype, but I think OP may be severely overestimating the number of millennials who enjoy golf versus those who do it because they’ve been told they should. My husband does like it, but given a choice between that and Super Smash Bros? Golf loses every single time.

              3. Jasnah*

                OP I hope you look at this comment because it’s amazing that someone has been in your exact situation and solved your problem.

            12. Welcome to 2019*

              Then offer the money to the men, too. Offering it just to the ladies because ‘women be shopping’ is sexist as hell.

            13. RUKiddingMe*

              It’s sexist. It’s a stereotype. Not all women want to shop. How about you don’t do something that excludes your employees? How about you suck.it.up and find an inclusive activity?

            14. Camellia*

              How about you calculate the cost of the trip if everyone, male and female, attended, then cancel the trip and divide that money evenly to all those people? No one has to do something they don’t want to do and everyone is still rewarded. That’s the point of the trip, right? To reward everyone? No one turns down money as a reward.

              2. Jiffy*

                I think this is the best idea of all! Rather than catering to management interests with a “mandatory fun” weekend that excludes employees and their families, why not actually reward employees with something they want?? Like extra money or time off? I am continually amazed at employers who think I would like to spend another minute with them, on my own time while neglecting my own interests and responsibilities. Great fun for the bosses (and probably a way to write off a costly vacation as a business expense, even better!) does not always mean great fun for the employees.

            15. PlainJane*

              Then offer, “time in a beautiful place with some extra cash that you didn’t have before you got there.” Or skip the cash. Golf could be available, but so could other resort activities so everyone can find something they’re able to do and comfortable doing. Then bring the group together for meals/networking activities. There really are inclusive options that don’t ruin the fun for anyone but allow everyone to benefit.

              1. Starbuck*

                If golf is still an option available, and all/most of the men end up going, and none of the women, it’s still a problem.

            16. Batgirl*

              There are more than two options in the world! Especially the two lousiest options possible: “So ladies, ready to participate as beginners in a sport that has historically mocked you? Or would you like to be stereotypes and shop?”
              Literally call up any resort or retreat place and ask them about corporate activities and you’ll have more than ten options in two minutes. Your female employees are so desperate to be included as they are, without fitting in lessons, you’ve got one offering to be a cart girl. . That’s the only way she can imagine getting acceptance.

              1. Observer*

                Your female employees are so desperate to be included as they are, without fitting in lessons, you’ve got one offering to be a cart girl. . That’s the only way she can imagine getting acceptance.

                Exactly this. OP, please pay attention to this. Both in terms of this trip. But also in terms of what it says about the overall culture.

            17. Starbuck*

              You need to find an activity that’s appealing to everyone, or just not do it. You can’t set up a “choice” where women just end up self-segregating, that doesn’t solve the problem of sexist discrimination, as has been explained above.

          2. mrs__peel*

            If I got an email like that at work (“We’re setting up a separate shopping day for you because you’re women!!”), that would be my cue to quit and find a new job. Maybe on the spot.

            2. OP*

              That (as you describe) was not an option. I get what you are saying but skewing the delivery to be intentionally sexist isn’t helpful. I should’ve left the shopping off of the hypothetical list of things to do in a new city. That was not a bullet point list to be delivered to every female team member.

              Point taken.

              1. RUKiddingMe*

                Intentionally or not it is still sexist. The fact that you thought about shopping as a hypothetical…for the women…makes it sexist thought on your part. I know you’d like to think you aren’t sexist, but that kind of thought process and your resistance to the comments of almost every single woman here who is telling you how bad the golf idea is says otherwise.

                You might not send an email like that, but trust me when I say that the vast majority of women are savvy enough to pick up on the sub-text. If you think that none of them would think “lawyer” you should think again…and again.

                1. OP*

                  I am torn here. In real life, at least in my life, I see trends all the time. Trends between men and women. If real women propose a shopping trip, am I to shy away because “lawyer”?

                  Spoke to one of the female sales reps yesterday afternoon. One of her suggestions was “let us go shopping while yall golf!”. Should I say… no, sorry, you might sue me.

                  I am trying to do this right, but suggestions like “because shopping is a theoretical way to spend a free day”, and “a hypothetical disabled person that we don’t currently employ may not be able to play” are outside of my scope of worries at this time.

                  Like others suggested above, if we split the trip, we would split the management as well.

                2. RUKiddingMe*

                  OP you need to think about the hypothetical people you don’t *currently* employ and choose something that will stand the test when/if you do employ them. So yes you fo need to think about them.

                  As to if the women say “let us go shopping…” I’d say that yes you cant let that be an option…for the women… because it’s gendered. It denies opportunity to the women…and anyone else who isn’t on the golf course networking.

                3. Desperate for impact*

                  “OP you need to think about the hypothetical people you don’t *currently* employ and choose something that will stand the test when/if you do employ them.”

                  While I do not disagree with this point in a generic sense, the idea that OP needs to stop a golf tournament because his company might hypothetically hire a disabled person is silly.

                  Again, this is all based on “disparate impact” analysis. Look up the term “80% guideline” and the 9th Circuit’s Stout v. Potter case, which I discussed below and I actually decided to read in full based on this post. Among the findings:

                  -“It is not sufficient to present evidence raising an *inference* of discrimination on a disparate impact claim.  The plaintiff must actually prove the discriminatory impact at issue.”

                  – “Statistical disparities must be sufficiently substantial that they raise such an inference of causation.” (This casts doubt on your “what if one person is affected” stance.)

                  -“Statistical evidence derived from an extremely small universe ․ has little predictive value and must be disregarded.”

                  – Where a swing of one person changes the outcome “liability cannot turn on such statistical caprice.”

                  In short, courts do not pay much attention if it’s a case single individual skewing the outcomes.

                  @RUKiddingMe, respectfully, elsewhere in this thread you state that you are not a lawyer, and you are clearly not conversant in the legal jargon of disparate impact theory. I asked you to cite precedent indicating that holding a golf tournament, without more, is legally actionable, and you haven’t produced anything. I also did a quick search of the EEOC pleadings for the term “golf,” and while there are several examples of actions against employers who fail to invite women to play golf, nothing I found suggests that merely holding a golf tournament is actionable. (To be clear, I’m not spending the hours reading the cases in full, which would be necessary if I were advising a client — which I’m not doing here.) Attorneys would call the reasoning you’ve presented “conclusory.”

                  OP, any policy along the lines of “let the women shop while y’all play golf” is likely actionable (particularly if taken in the context of other problems at the company). Any activity that is specifically broken down by gender is going to be problematic. “Anyone who doesn’t want to play golf can take the afternoon off to do whatever” is potentially a different story, but I would be very careful to document that the instructions were not gendered.

    7. MCL*

      But by doing this, wouldn’t there then be two groups of people again? The women all doing lessons and the men all bonding and doing their own thing? It’s also a matter of non-golfers even being interested in learning. I wouldn’t be interested in lessons, personally, and I would find it a “not-really-mandatory-but-you-kinda-gotta-participate” waste of my weekend.

      1. My sympathies*

        it would be an issue the first year, but not after that, I think, because presumably the newly-trained golfers would then join the others. At least, I think that is the idea. I don’t know a thing about golf.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          It takes a LONG time and a lot of practice to be even marginally proficient at golf. I’ve been playing for over a decade and am still not good enough that I’d want to golf with a bunch of dudes in a work setting.

          Plus, it’s not a cheap hobby. Equipment, greens fees, cart rental and lessons add up quick.

          1. Michaela Westen*

            If anyone could do it (financially), it wouldn’t be the networking of the good ol’ boys.

      2. Phoenix*

        Depending on the specific group, if everyone was willing to participate but didn’t necessarily have the skills, perhaps the lesson could be open to everyone (not just the women), and take place well in advance of the trip? Perhaps as an optional, additional day off? That would help solve the in-trip group split, while still making it more accessible to non-golfers.

        Of course, I agree with Allison that this has to change going forward, but this might be a good stopgap to lessen the negative impact for this year.

      3. Op*

        Op here. I like the lessons idea if implemented pre-trip. Not during the trip for the reason you just stated.

        1. Princess PIP*

          No. Do not do this. Lessons says “here’s your chance to learn something what will get you on the same level of access in this company as others/men” and is terrible.

          The women already earned it. Choose a new trip.

          2. RUKiddingMe*

            This!!!

            OP do not offer lessons. This is a reward. The women are entitled to all of the perks just the same as the males are without needing to learn some stupid game.

        2. winifred*

          Still a bad idea. Playing golf requires a financial investment in clothes, clubs, etc. that people may not want or be able to make.

        3. revueller*

          Okay, if your female employees wanted to take lessons in golf to join this outing, they would have done so already and joined your trip. Your employees did not. I assume they are also smart enough to come up with other compromises that would allow you to keep your golf trip if that wasn’t the problem. Your employees did not.

          The golf trip is the problem. Your employees are not looking for easy fixes. They’re pointing out a representation of a very real and sinister culture problem within your sales team. Please, listen to your employees and to Allison.

        4. ANon.*

          OP, golf has historically been an institution where women were excluded and thus discriminated against. Even if it’s “pro-women” now, it’s not a good choice for an employer looking for an equal-opportunity option.

          Regardless, as Alison said, if the women of your company had equal access to golf, but voluntarily chose to exclude themselves so it was just the men on the golf outing, **that’s still not ok.** You are still obligated to find a new activity that does not lead to a voluntary segregation of genders.

          Also, you say that you like golf because it’s a crucial part of the industry in your region. But, knowing what you know now about its historically discriminatory nature, why not try to ~Be The Change~ and push back? Like, how great would it be for gender equality if golf was NOT such a thing in your industry/regionally? That would be awesome! Obviously, you alone can’t change your industry’s/region’s culture (and certainly not overnight!), but this is something you can do! Make the right choice, OP: find an alternative to golf!

        5. MCMonkeyBean*

          You would basically be assigning people homework for something that is supposed to be a reward.

      4. ket*

        Give lessons *beforehand* so that then there is one group. Have someone socially savvy mix the carts so that people are comfortable with skill levels.

        1. MCL*

          Personally, I have 0 interest in learning golf and would be resentful if it was a “required fun” activity requiring lesson time and then time spent out on a golf course. It’s also no fun to be a beginner in a group where most already know what they’re doing, and a lot of people aren’t comfortable being beginners in a mixed-skill group. Find another fun bonding activity that is new and everyone can enjoy, like a group meal at a great restaurant, or heck, a barbeque with yard games.

        2. Zombeyonce*

          So now these women not only have to worry about looking incompetent when playing golf as newbies, but they also have to give up their free time for lessons or take them on the clock and lose out on sales commissions to do it for a sport they have no interest in playing? No no no.

          1. RUKiddingMe*

            Well those silly women should have already learned to golf so it’s their own fault…

            /s

      5. Decima Dewey*

        I learned back in high school that I’m a physical klutz, and that thanks to a bunch of vision issues, nothing’s where I think it is. I can make someone laugh just by trying to catch something. So golf, bowling, and so forth have no interest for me. Lessons might, eventually, get me from risible to mediocre, but I’d pass.

    8. Memyselfandi*

      I would go along with this and it was my first thought. But, I note that some comments indicate not all would not be interested. And, the business should be thinking more broadly about physician limitations and other things that might interfere with participation. They should mix it up.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Physical limitations are super important to keep in mind here. I’m allergic to all forms of grass. If a weekend of golfing was my only opportunity to network and get face time with the higher ups, I’d be sunk. Either I skip the trip and don’t get the face time, or I go and let management see me all red eyed and covered in a rash. Neither option accomplishes the goal of getting to know management and forming career connections.

    9. Autumnheart*

      It would make the same amount of sense to plan a company-wide spa weekend, and offer the men a personal shopper if they’re not big on shopping.

      The whole point isn’t to cater to the male majority and then pencil the women into whatever corner they might fit. It’s time to scrap the “male bonding time” model of the company retreat. There are so many fun things to do that both men and women might enjoy (boating! the beach! Mountain cabin with horseback riding! Trip to the Grand Canyon!) that it’s silly at this point to keep to such a stereotype of exclusion.

      Also: “Historically, all or very nearly all of our sales team have been male, and golfers. The managers are all golfers…”

      Oh, so whenever there was a female member of the sales team, historically the company did what? Just leave her out? Offer a token invitation with the unspoken expectation that she wouldn’t intrude on the men? Not cool at all. It’s time to change this.

    10. ket*

      I came here to say exactly that! Many women golf — and many would be interested in learning, even if just for kicks/networking/whatever!

    11. Keener*

      I am a woman in a male dominated industry. Ive never learned to play golf and am not particularly interested in it but I’ve considered taking golf lessons a few times.

      While I’d appreciate my company being more inclusive and choosing an activity that everyone enjoys, I also accept that until there is a major change in my industry I’ll always miss out on some networking opportunities unless I golf. I’ve volunteered to be the event photographer in the past. It gave me a legitimate (non-gendered) role and an opportunity to participate without having to actually golf.

      If there was an opportunity to go on this retreat and take golf lessons I’d be keen! However, make sure the lessons are open to any one who wants to learn/improve, not just the women.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        I worry that the people taking lessons, which would mostly be women, having to give up their free time to take them or if given work time to do it, missing out on money from sales commissions. Those both sound like pretty bad consequences.

    12. Eukomos*

      I agree, especially since it sounds like this golf trip is part of a broader golf culture in the industry in that area, as it sounds like from the letter. I hate it when I discover some unspoken rule of a thing I was supposed to get good at in my own time to get somewhere in my industry, but it’s not a formal requirement so no one thought to train me in it or even mention how prevalent it is. This is professional development to improve networking opportunities, that’s well worth offering your staff formal opportunities for training.

    13. TootsNYC*

      Though, would they be taking lessons while the guys who already play are hanging out with managers and senior execs?

      Maybe one thing to do is to create time where anyone who DIDN’T golf still gets one-on-one time with managers and senior execs. It would make for a busy weekend for the senior folks, but this is more about work for them.

    14. CountryLass*

      I’m useless at golf; the one time my husband took me to the driving range I nearly knocked myself out with my own ball!

      But if it was a big company weekend thing, they were footing the whole bill and offering lessons? I’d give it a shot! And even if I truly TRULY sucked on the first day, I’d probably still be happy to drive one of the carts and take the mickey out of those playing when/if they hit the ball into the water or something!

      But next year, definitely think of something different. Depending on where you are, maybe a wine-tasting thing, or if it’s near the beach, some diving or windsurfing?

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Those options all seem problematic to me. So many people don’t drink for personal and religious reasons and the others involve being in a bathing suit in front of co-workers, which is obviously going to be a bigger deal for women than men.

        Any resort worth its salt will have a long list if activities for corporate retreats they can offer to OP, plenty of which should be culturally neutral and fine for most groups.

        1. Dahlia*

          Black people on average know how to swim in lower rates than white people because of historical segragration so like… anything where “must swim” is necessary is not a good way to diversify.

    15. MeepMeep*

      Yeah, that would be my reaction too. It’s not like they’re all going to a male-specific thing. Women can play golf.

      I absolutely suck at golf, but if my whole office were into it, I’d take lessons and come along and try. And I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be “the reason we can’t do our annual golf trip anymore”.

      1. Works in IT*

        I have zero interest in playing golf or drinking beer, but golf carts look fun to drive.

        1. Antilles*

          Golf carts *can* be fun to drive…unfortunately, if you’re doing anything more fun than “driving at an average speed in a straight line”, you will immediately be asked to stop.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Your last sentence is problematic thinking. You wouldn’t be the reason for the change – the change would be because the company came up with a better, more inclusive, equally fun activity for the sales team to do as an actual team, where everyone can contribute and network with equal access to company bigwigs.

        1. Welcome to 2019*

          And in any lady-exclusive event, you know the men would be like “well, we were going to do the golf trip, but SHARON didn’t want to.”

          Don’t act like this doesn’t happen.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Who said it doesn’t? My point was, letting the possibility of what others may say be the reason why you go along with something in the workplace that you don’t agree with, especially something that’s divisive and exclusionary, is problematic because it is.

            1. Ego Chamber*

              It’s definitely problematic but I’m opposed to shaming a woman (who isn’t part of the management structure) for evaluating her options and making the choice that works best for her.

              “Sharon, The Reason There’s No More Golf Trip” isn’t responsible for sacrificing herself on the altar of a shitty company that refuses to do the right (and legal!) thing just so she can help out the women who will be hired after she’s forced out of that toxic environment (assuming they don’t reinstate the golf trip once all the ladies are gone).

              Management is responsible for fixing this, and doing it in a way that doesn’t get the women singled out and retaliated against. I don’t envy management, they’ll be fighting against the culture they’ve actively sought to establish—and if the OP is any indication, they don’t want to fix it, they wanted a “solution” that was also a free pass to continue, and they’ll probably accidentally-on-purpose say something that leads to those women paying hell until they can get out.

    16. Sara*

      I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s still a bad idea.

      One issue that comes to mind (in addition to what Alison and others have already said) is what happens if one of the staff members physically can’t play golf either now or in the future? People have all kinds of temporary and chronic health problems that could present an issue. For example, my boss (who actually *is* an avid golfer, which is why it’s on my mind) broke a finger on his dominant hand in a freak (non-work-related) accident about a month ago and can’t swing a golf club right now.

      OP and his company should find another way to reward the staff.

    17. Liz*

      I would as well. I don’t play, but its because I’ve never really had the opportunity to learn. BUT, if i were one of the female employees who wasn’t going to play because I don’t know how, I would most certainly appreciate the option of lessons, while the others went and played.

      1. RUKiddingMe*

        And while you’re off taking lessons, your coworkers (male coworkers) are getting face time and networking…

    18. Public Sector Manager*

      As a golfer, I wouldn’t advocate giving everyone lessons.

      First, some (but definitely not all) weekend golfers take themselves way too seriously in office golf tournaments (I have at least 2 people on my team who fall into this category). Even using a best ball format, they want to have the low score. They go out of their way to avoid having golfers who aren’t as good as they are in their foursome. If they have to use every player’s drive twice, the inexperienced player’s tee shot is always on the shortest hole so it does the least “damage” to the team score. It’s not fun being the least experienced golfer in those situations. This attitude from certain golfers is the main reason why I stopped playing in our office’s voluntary tournament.

      Second, the female sales people might experience even more discrimination by golfing. A good friend of my wife’s is an avid golfer and just moved to the Deep South. While women are allowed at the local country clubs, mixed gender foursomes aren’t allowed. The women have to play with other women or they can’t play at all. If the courses in the OP’s area are the same way, this will just make matters worse.

      Finally, since there will be no more than 4 people in each group teeing off, there is going to be a pecking order based on who you are teamed up with. Being in the owner’s foursome is going to give you more meaningful facetime with the head of the company than being in the head of HR’s foursome. Three people won’t be complaining they get to play with the owner, but everyone else will miss out on that same experience.

      1. Michaela Westen*

        Men and women aren’t allowed to play golf together? What are they afraid will happen???

    19. Hlyssande*

      I could see offering lessons to all employees in general, since it sounds like golf is part of the local culture.

      That said, the only way someone is getting me on a golf course is with a helmet and protective eyewear and even then it’s unlikely that I’m willing. I nearly lost an eye to a golf ball as a child.

    21. StaceyIzMe*

      Agreed! With golf, it’s hard. It’s a venerable tradition and even if it’s somewhat sexist in its history, a lot of business has been conducted during the course of playing a few rounds. So- maybe inclusion (or an offer of inclusion, if interested) is better than assuming it’s a lost cause.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        Wouldn’t it be a wonderful gesture to the women (and non-golfing men) at the company to be a pioneer in changing this tradition? It doesn’t just mess with gender politics, it also effects younger workers since they’re less likely to play, too. It’s not just a sexist trip, it’s verging on ageist.

    22. Bunny Hopping*

      Please don’t offer lessons. The guys will go out and network on the course — some will be amazing golfers and some will be awful. The women worrying that they are not good golfers will be in the lessons and not get to network with the men.

      It is time to find a new activity.

    23. anon for this one*

      Yet another reason not to hire women – now we can’t have a nice golf weekend.

      JOKING!!!

      Joking. Well joking that I believe that, but know some good old boys are thinking that. So it’s not a joke – it’s fxcked up that some people will think that way.

      Sigh.

    24. Lucille2*

      I thought the same thing. I participated in many company golf outings as a pretty novice golfer. For the most part, it was fun! But, as a male colleague pointed out to me, some of the men were offering loads of unsolicited advice on how I could improve my form. Advice that was not given to the other bad male golfers.

      Golf is a sport that shouldn’t be gendered, but somehow it is. Also, I know plenty of men who would be happy to pass on the golf trip.

    1. Snarkus Aurelius*

      This is the way we’ve always done it, and no one has ever complained so why change?

      I guarantee you this will be a response the OP will hear.

      2. RUKiddingMe*

        Also internalized misogyny. Right here in these comments we can see women saying basically “just accept it…/necessary to succeed/etc…” Paraphrased of course, but yeah…

    2. Roscoe*

      Its still a think because the people who were there enjoyed it, and they only recently got new hires. Its not shocking that a group of guys, who live in a golf town, would enjoy a golf outing. Its not shocking that women who live there may enjoy the same thing. The idea of a golf outing isn’t bad on its own, any more than the idea of bowling is bad on its own. OP is trying to figure out a solution to a problem that really just arose.

      1. Jerry*

        Seriously. This comment section always makes me feel like a martian. It’s always INCONCEIVABLE here that anyone would ever pursue anything but management best practices regardless of their social or cultural context.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think that’s a strawman. No one here is saying it’s inconceivable that this has come about; to the contrary, we’re all too aware of how it has. But the OP is asking about how to handle it, and that’s what the answers are focused on.

          1. EOA*

            I have to disagree, Allison. There are a number of people who are responding as if the root of the problem is golf itself. It’s not. There are women who like golf and who would want to go on a golfing trip. (I am not among them, to be clear). And there are also women who would probably like to learn to golf.

            But “golf” isn’t the issue – it’s the associations we have with it, and how it has been used to exclude women. If more women were socialized to learn golf (and like it, I suppose), then I don’t see where the golfing trip would be so terrible. But by focusing on golf, I feel like a lot of people here are missing the deeper issue, which is perpetuating informal networks that exclude women.

            That’s where I think that OP is falling down – he or she isn’t quite seeing how this trip has now become an informal way to exclude the women on the sales team from developing the kinds of networking and face time that benefits their careers. That’s what the OP needs to fix – it may means ending the golf trips but also, it should mean being more proactive in finding ways for the women on the sales team to advance their careers.

            But golf itself – not the issue, IMO.

            1. EOA*

              I should say that I think you basically did say much of this in your response, I just get the feeling that a number of others here don’t see that.

            2. Works in IT*

              I disagree… slightly… in that socializing anyone to be good at and like a sport with a high cost of entry (equipment costs and entry fees) doesn’t seem to be a good idea. If I was in charge of planning company wide events, I would similarly not plan a skiing trip, even though I love skiing, because it is a sport that requires an investment of money to become good enough to not embarrass yourself, and I know that anyone in the department who isn’t an avid skier would probably be embarrassed to be stuck on the bunny slopes, and it’s not a skill that can be trained in advance without spending money on buying or renting equipment and a lift pass. Not everyone can afford to spend the money to get good enough to not be humiliated in expensive sports, fun or not.

              1. Spencer Hastings*

                “Not everyone can afford to spend the money to get good enough to not be humiliated in expensive sports, fun or not”

                Or the time. People already have their own hobbies that are important to them, and goodness knows we have little time for them as it is without adding another one just so we can conform to someone else’s idea of socially acceptable sports participation.

                1. Busy*

                  Well see that’s WHY golf was made an informal barrier to entry. It isn’t just for men, but for men who can afford it.

                  At my *male dominated* company, they do a golf thing like this OP stated of who hit the ball the farthest to make it so “anyone can participate”. I asked what a person is to do if they cannot afford the said clubs to hit the ball. And yeah … they’re not renting any so … tell me again who this activity is for?

                  It is up there with like asking only women to take notes or copying things; its like sexism 101. I can see why people on here from diferent regions would be shocked people don’t get it, and why some on here ARE struggling with it. Lots of places in this world (like the city I live) have not gotten the sexist memo.

                2. Hijos de Sanchez*

                  I my city there are many public golf courses and people use them. Yes you need to get clubs, but you can rent those or purchase them secondhand very easily, alot more easily than things like camping equipment actually. The only sport I can think of that has no equipment is soccer.

                3. Kat in VA*

                  Especially time. I was a kickass rock climber, dirtbiker, and snowboarder (before I broke my neck pursuing the adrenaline dragon on that last one). Those sports are not only expensive as hell to equip properly, but take a tremendous amount of time to get good at doing them. I also own and shoot a variety of firearms. Again, a large expenditure of money to do it properly.

                  If someone told me I had to learn to golf (with my titanium-framed neck) to further my career on top of the roughly 60 hours a week I put in at my job already, I’d tell them to go pound sand. I spend what little free time doing what I WANT to do, and being told I had spend some of that precious free time to learn a sport that (a) I have no interest in and (b) would make me miserable and more in pain that I’m already in? No thanks. Find something else.

            4. wittyrepartee*

              Yes, our company offers a quilting and advanced yoga retreat for both women and men.

            5. Micklak*

              Most of the comments I’ve read that are critical of golf are critical because it “perpetuates informal networks that exclude women.”

              1. Zombeyonce*

                It also generally excludes people from lower middle class and below because of the cost, which is also a big deal.

            6. PlainJane*

              I’ll leave the debate on whether golf is specifically the issue to others and make this more broad: any mandatory sport or other physically demanding activity is a problem, because it excludes people with physical limitations who may not want to disclose those. It’s also more likely to exclude older employees (says the 50-something with arthritis and tendonitis). A trip to a resort is fine (if it’s accessible), but beware of networking activities that require abilities not required by the regular job. Have a variety of options people can choose from (including choosing to just relax) and incorporate networking events without athletic component.

          2. Jerry*

            I can’t say I agree. The comment tree I’m replying to specifically finds it inconceivable that there is a company that pursues golf as a group team building activity. Their comment literally questions how it can exist.

            While I think you’re right in your original response about the new circumstances, I don’t find it surprising or even remarkable at all. Management tried to find a group activity everyone would enjoy and they did. It feels weird to treat golf as the original activity as so egregious. This has not been the first time I’ve noticed this tendency in the comment section of this blog.

            1. Spencer Hastings*

              The question is rhetorical. She finds it objectionable, not literally incomprehensible.

              1. Jerry*

                ” Management tried to find a group activity everyone would enjoy and they did. It feels weird to treat golf as the original activity as so egregious.”

                1. Spencer Hastings*

                  Oh, I thought you were referring to the “This is still happening in 2019?”.

              2. Detective Amy Santiago*

                Moreso I was referring to the institutionalized sexism that still exists in business, but yeah, definitely still a rhetorical question.

          3. Ralph Wiggum*

            I have to agree with Jerry that the comments to this post are some of the most unnecessarily negative comments to the OP than I’ve seen in a long time.

            1. Micklak*

              There are a lot of negative comments, but they seem pretty necessary to me. As someone else mentioned, this seems like such a 1950s issue. A lot of people are surprised that it’s still an issue when it’s so clearly sexist and classist.

            2. Starbuck*

              The incredulity has definitely risen more as the OP has left several comments that give the impression they don’t really think this is a problem and that they want to ‘include’ the women without having to change anything that the men are doing… they want the women to have to change (take golf lessons). And they can’t (or won’t) understand why that’s a problem. It’s BS.

              1. Zombeyonce*

                This. OP’s responses have been resistant to any real change for the men at the company.

                1. Quandong*

                  +1

                  The OP’s responses have revealed their lack of insight into why it’s not okay to organize activities where some coworkers (in this case, women) are disadvantaged or unable to derive equal benefit as others.

      2. Welcome to 2019*

        The problem “just arose” because they “just” added women to the team.

        1. DefinitelyAnon*

          There are lots of sales fields that women are just beginning to enter, even in 2019. Remember, sales can be anything–and in my husband’s industry which is a pretty niche technological field, women sales associates are few and far between. The whys to that are a much deeper, bigger problem than these companies didn’t feel like hiring women. Indeed all the of the companies my husband has worked for hire lots of women for other professions within the company–but there are few, if any, candidates in his particular field.

      1. I was never given a name*

        Just because of your username, I have to suggest they just do a separate Women’s Appreciation trip to Steamtown Mall.
        (To non-Office fans, no I’m not serious)

        1. Bowserkitty*

          Everything about that trip is so wrong, it is hilarity….. (one of my favorite episodes!!!)

    4. Mary's Dress*

      Exactly – I remember these days in the 90’s in BigLaw. But they threw in strip club visits on top of the “beer drinking”.
      Sigh…

    5. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Well, there was the earlier letter from a man who wanted to organize a volleyball weekend with his male coworkers but he didn’t know how to coordinate it without “the women causing drama.”
      And he was a young person, new to the workplace with the view that his male coworkers were his “friends” and should be able to hang out as friends who happen to work at the same place, doing the same thing and talking about it while away from the office.

      2. Manon*

        People who believe that sexism doesn’t exist among young men are sorely mistaken. Sometimes it can be even more insidious because it comes from men versed in the language and expectations of modern feminism who talk big about caring about misogyny and equality but in practice act every bit as sexist as older men.

        1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          Agreed. It can be insidious because they think they are being supportive when it’s really paternalistic and infantalizing.

    6. MatKnifeNinja*

      Where I live golf is huge. Many golf courses have “let’s get girls golfing” learn how to golf lessons, and a selling point that golf is still a big a big deal in a business setting. The boys and mixed lessons are never full. The girls lessons have wait list.

      My niece and her friends took after school once a week lessons up from K to 8th grade.

      She’s no LPGA member, but she wouldn’t feel u comfortable on a golf course.

      It’s the FOMO that drives it.

      Golf outings for business have never went away around here.

      1. JustaTech*

        Back in the 90’s a high school classmate (girl) went to “business camp” one summer, and one of the activities was learning to play golf for business purposes. Not to be good at the game necessarily, but to learn all the etiquette and how not to embarrass yourself or the boss.

        I commented that this was absurd and sexist and she agreed but “that’s the way the business world works”. Too bad some things haven’t changed.

      2. TransmitHIm*

        Ok, cool, women can like golf. That’s perfectly reasonable. But they shouldn’t have to for work reasons, is the issue. I’m a man and don’t play golf and if my workplace basically forced me into going away for the weekend to play it, I’d hate it, however casual they are about skill (and the suggestion that it doesn’t matter if you’re terrible is clearly made by someone who isn’t terrible at golf. It is a horrendous feeling being actively awful at something around your peers.)
        They should have addressed this years ago when they had someone who, from the OP’s letter, doesn’t like golf but went anyway to hang around in the carts, which is a clear sign they felt obligated to go.

    7. Lynca*

      2 years ago we had a vibrant conversation about spouse activities while planning a conference. It was disheartening to hear people actively saying we should just arrange take them shopping.

      We did not do that by the way.

    8. Working Mom Having It All*

      I worked on a TV show a few years ago where not only was my department extremely male dominated (not unusual in the entertainment industry), but the execs all had golf as a shared hobby and anyone who wanted to move up also played golf. As someone who doesn’t enjoy golf, and who isn’t interested in taking up an expensive and time-consuming hobby that I otherwise don’t enjoy just for schmoozing opportunities (in my time off, no less), it won’t be a surprise when I tell you I did not last long there and don’t use anyone there as a reference.

      But yes, this absolutely still happens.

  4. JokeyJules*

    There is no possible realm of reality where i would want to be a “cart girl” and pass beer to my male coworkers while they golf.
    Nor a realm where i would want to watch another colleague do that.

    There are so many other ways to involve everyone (hatchet throwing, sip and paint events, cooking classes, horseback riding, etc.)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Only if you get the managers and owners to participate in those other activities though — otherwise you still have the unequal networking access problem.

      1. Emily K*

        Yeah, I was thinking about a semi-comparable annual retreat my company has. There are various excursions that staff can pick from a la carte, which cover a wide range of interests, so there’s something for everyone – but excursions are a relatively small percentage of the total time we are on the trip, so if you choose an excursion that no VIP chose, it doesn’t significantly affect your access to VIPs.

        I wonder if there’s a way to reorganize this trip, leaving golf in there, but substantially minimizing its prominence? I’m not super familiar with these things, but if it’s a three-day trip, perhaps a half-day could have an optional golf excursion alongside other options that resonate with people on your team. Some of the ones we’ve done at my company’s retreat are bird-watching, paddle boats, shopping, tours of local establishments like farms and wineries. Ideally, every excursion would have at least one manager/VIP heading up the activity – even if maybe all the VIPs would rather golf, they would see that they have a special responsibility to be equally available to all their sales staff and volunteer to do the bird-watching trip or winery tour or whatever instead, and maybe next year they can do the golf excursion.

        1. Emily K*

          Meant to add, the evenings could be spent alternating between free time to enjoy the hotel pool/spa/etc, and general/whole group activities like dinner/happy hour, maybe showing a movie, stuff like that?

        2. BeautifulVoid*

          This might not be a terrible idea, at least for a “transition” year to head off some complaints about changing the golf trip. OP says the trip is Friday – Sunday. Just tossing some ideas out there, say they travel on Friday and do something enjoyable for everyone that afternoon/evening. Then Saturday morning, offer at least two activities, one of them being the traditional game of golf. I think what might save this is spreading out the VIPs/higher-ups between the different activities, i.e., not have all of them go on the golf part. For example, if there are three VIPs going on the trip, let the team members choose between golf, a museum tour, or a cheese tasting (just making stuff up, obviously), and have a VIP at each one. Have everyone get together again for a non-golf activity on Saturday night and Sunday morning, or even repeat the “golf or something else” thing on Sunday, as long as there are VIPs at the other options.

          1. Michaela Westen*

            If there are 3 VIPs and the golf outing is offered 3 times, they could take turns going golfing.

    2. nutella fitzgerald*

      Tbh I probably actually would rather be a “cart girl” than throw hatchets

      1. Mystery Bookworm*

        The perennial problem with offering activity-based trips as rewards. One person’s fun afternoon is another person’s chore.

        I with you on the ‘cart girl’ over hatches thing. Although I’d pick a good cooking class over either, as long as I get to eat the food afterwards.

        1. Alucius*

          Yeah, exactly. Looking at the JokeyJules’s suggestions in the top-line comment (all of which are perfectly reasonable!), I would have exactly zero interest in a sip and paint and be incredibly apprehensive about riding a horse. If I felt I HAD to do either one or lose status with my employer, I would not be happy.

          1. JokeyJules*

            all the more reason to survey your staff or change the rewards program!

            from all of the work events i’ve planned, there is always at least one person there having almost no fun, intended or not, but i think we almost all would enjoy more money or a nice dinner and an extra day off (or both!)

            1. Clisby*

              Yes. I’m a woman and I like golf – it’s literally the only sport I will watch, unless my own son is playing soccer. However, if I had a choice between this long-weekend golf excursion and just getting Friday off to have a long weekend with my family – Bye, Workplace! See you on Monday!

              Same for some of the other suggestions. Grand Canyon? NOPE. Horseback riding? NOPE. Sip & paint? NOPE.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                I’d do the paint and sip because those are goofy and fun (and you can bring your own drinks if you don’t do alcohol), but the physical activities would get a hard pass from me. I run, and do yoga and Pilates, but have no desire to ride horses or do anything else that could potentially lead to an injury I’ll have a hard time recovering from due to some invisible disabilities I have. Nope. People really need to start taking into account disabilities as well as possible gender imbalances when thinking up team events. Not everyone physically can participate, and not everyone will speak up about their limitations if they don’t want to put their disability out there to someone not in HR.

                1. Busy*

                  I think it comes down to coming to the realization that your coworkers are not your buddies and stop trying to create the faaaaaamily culture by forcing activities people don’t want to do to have fun. I will bet you dollars to doughnuts half those guys that are golfing right now don’t want to do this either. Its just one of those “male” good ole boy things.

                  I come from a “Golf Dynasty” so to speak. Everyone in my family golfs. With that said, do you have any idea how many men have told me they only golf or learned to golf because work demanded it? That they actually hate it? That it sucks up all their time and money to keep up with it? More than those who do play it for fun.

                  My company has a ton of activities throughout the year that are choices and no one pays attention to who goes or who does not.

                  And honestly, if I am attending an event hosted by my employer, then there is a 100% chance I am just there for free food LMAO.

          2. Jules the 3rd*

            There’s a reason that ‘nice lunches’ are so popular as bonding / rewards. You do have to do some work to be inclusive there too, but in the end, even if someone doesn’t want to eat what’s there, they can come and sit and chat.

        2. HeyAnonanonnie*

          You know what is a good incentive/reward that can be used by everyone, of all genders, physical conditions, and ages? Money.

          1. Jerry*

            But it doesn’t offer the same opportunity for de-formalizing social interactions, and flattening relationships. Those have positive externalities which Alison pointed out: networking and mentorship opportunities.

        3. Gaia*

          The thing is, it isn’t a problem when one, or even a few, don’t like an event. It is a problem when an entire gender in a given group doesn’t like an event. That needs to be a sign of a necessary course correction.

          1. Mystery Bookworm*

            I also think there’s a lot of value in rotating activites if you can, so you’re not excluding the same people year over year.

          2. Lauren*

            But it’s not intrinsic to their femaleness, which is what everybody is missing. It so happens that this group of women does not enjoy golf; fine. (I don’t either.) But stop acting as though it is *inherently* tied to their gender.

            1. ceiswyn*

              But it kind of is, simply because golf has a long history of being a gendered activity, with exclusion of women from golf clubs being common up until quite recently.

              As a result, it is an activity that men are more likely to have taken up and pursued than women are. Hence, inherently gendered.

              1. Micklak*

                Half the women in my family love golf. That wouldn’t keep me from acknowledging that golf is inherently gendered.

                I’m also curious how many black or latino or middle eastern sales people they have in this office. Golf has historically been an exclusive activity.

                1. Captain S*

                  Saying it’s inherently gendered doesn’t mean “no women like it” – it’s about who has participated in it and benefited from it (especially in a professional context) historically.

                2. Jules the 3rd*

                  Tiger Woods wasn’t allowed to play in the 2013 British Open because the club where it was held didn’t allow blacks.

                  It’s not ‘historically’ exclusive…

                3. Hijos de Sanchez*

                  I am curious whether you are Latino/a Micklak. If not please don’t speak for us. I am Hispanic and learned golf.

                4. Hijos de Sanchez*

                  Tiger Woods wasn’t allowed to play in the 2013 British Open because the club where it was held didn’t allow blacks.

                  I am calling BS on this:

                  “Tiger Woods ‘very pleased’ to open 2013 British Open with 2-under 69”
                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/tiger-woods-very-pleased-to-open-2013-british-open-with-2-under-69/2013/07/18/75dee022-efe8-11e2-bed3b9b6fe264871_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.98bc47c112ca

                  https://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-fades-sunday-british-open-2013-muirfield

                  https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2013/07/20/british-open-2013-lee-westwood-tiger-woods-third-round/2571555/

            2. Kj*

              But golf at this company excludes the women. And, speaking broadly, golf is more likely to exclude women than men, just like a so day would get more men sleeting out than women. The company should choose a wide variety of activities that people do not select in or out of by gender group.

          3. Mr. Shark*

            Golf really isn’t exclusionary of one sex, though. I can see it would exclude certain physical limitations, though.
            I’m all for inclusion, but it is a shame that things like this can’t continue just because certain people don’t want to participate.

            1. EventPlannerGal*

              “it is a shame that things like this can’t continue just because certain people don’t want to participate.”

              This is quite passive-aggressive.

              And I mean, many gendered activities are not *inherently*, literally exclusionary. Women are not incapable of swinging a stick to hit a little ball just because they are women. Men are not incapable of getting their fingernails painted bright colours or getting a facial, either. And yet, in practice, golf is a sport heavily associated with men and spa activities are heavily associated with women, and if you knowingly decide to centre your workplace bonus scheme on one or the other then in practice you will be excluding people. In practice, many women were never taught to play golf because it’s considered a male activity, they find the overall vibe unappealing or unwelcoming, they are specifically forbidden to participate at many courses or only allowed to participate on certain days/on lesser courses/accompanied by a man, and all sorts of other reasons. So it really isn’t about how “certain people” – just say “spoilsport girls”, we can all hear you thinking it – don’t “want” to play.

            2. Welcome to 2019*

              “Golf really isn’t exclusionary of one sex, though.”

              Clubs literally bar women from being on premises, so yes, it is.

              “I’m all for inclusion, but it is a shame that things like this can’t continue just because certain people don’t want to participate.”

              You’re not all for inclusion.

            3. dealing with dragons*

              “certain people” ?

              not a great phrase to go with here. might as well say “you people”. eesh.

      3. Detective Amy Santiago*

        If I chop off my arm at an axe-throwing team builder, does that qualify under worker’s comp?

        1. merula*

          Answer from someone who works in insurance: Everything with WC is driven by state law, but probably.

          Employer-sponsored extracurricular activities have generally been found to be “in the course and scope of employment”, which is the general rule to qualify for comp.

        3. stitchinthyme*

          I had a coworker once who injured his arm badly enough to need surgery during a work-sponsored bowling trip. He filed for worker’s comp and they covered it. (They also never did another bowling outing.)

      4. Connie*

        The only one of those id want to do is horseback riding. But some people are afraid of horses, or have physical issues that would prevent them from riding.

        I know more men are cooking now, but why would you replace a stereotypical men’s thing with a stereotypical women’s thing and expect either sex to be happy about it?

        I’m a woman. I make things like baked chicken seasoned with salt only. I have no to make, or eat, anything fancier than that.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I strongly disagree that cooking is a stereotypical women’s thing. On an individual level, maybe, but that’s less about cooking and more about gendered division of household labor. If you look at high-end professional chefdom, it’s heavily male-dominated.

          2. Ego Chamber*

            That’s an excellent example of the glass escalator, and it has everything to do with the activity being considered “something women do.”

        2. pamela voorhees*

          For anyone in the future reading this, most if not all barns limit riders to 200 lbs or less. This means many employees would not be allowed to participate in it, and have a high potential for getting embarrassed when they walk in. I highly recommend that a workplace choose a different activity (although horseback riding is fun, and I’d recommend it).

      5. UGH*

        Whereas I would quit a job ON THE SPOT if I was asked to be a “cart girl” and serve my male colleagues beer.

    3. Anonysand*

      All of those are great options, and it could be any combination of them too. Instead of making the whole outing about golf, why not just one afternoon? Or, is there a TopGolf nearby? That offers the same type of activity in a more relaxed and casual setting that makes it into a game. Combine a variation of activities with group meals and I think you’d have the same level of participation and satisfaction.

      Also, not only on the gender front, but this type of activity is pretty limiting to those who are physically-abled. Just like you’d want to make sure you were being inclusive for women, make sure that you’re being inclusive in other ways as well.

      1. JokeyJules*

        TopGolf is great! I think golf is super boring, but TopGolf was sort of the golf equivalent to bowling (which i also find super boring). It was a great time, but group meals are also a really good, mostly-universally enjoyed alternative

      2. DonnaNoble*

        Thanks for mentioning this! I don’t play traditional golf, but I love TopGolf. However, we hardly ever go (as a family) because my husband has scoliosis and isn’t able to enjoy playing because it’s physically uncomfortable for him. This is a very important point for the OP’s company to keep in mind.

      3. KHB*

        I like the idea of a combination of activities. Keep the weekend trip to the beach town, schedule one afternoon of golfing, and fill the rest of the time with hiking, pottery painting, wine tasting, or whatever. Each individual activity is optional, but they’re all chosen to appeal to as wide a cross-section of the group as possible, so it’s not “all golf all the time” versus “separate side activity for people who don’t golf.”

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      My stomach clenched itself into a black hole when I saw the words “cart girl”.

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        I was thinking about hatchet throwing and the person who coined that term….

      2. Connie*

        Driving the cart and handing out beers doesn’t seem as big of an issue to me as calling yourself (or others) a “cart girl”.

        2. Scarlet2*

          Honestly, both are issues to me. Driving the cart and serving beer sounds like the kind of menial/subservient “job” generally given to women while men do “exciting things”.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Yes – like expecting the women to be the ones to make coffee and take notes at meetings.

          2. Michaela Westen*

            And you don’t get to network when you’re busy driving while your passengers schmooze.

        3. swingbattabatta*

          Agreed. I actually really enjoy just hanging out in the cart, drinking beer and eating snacks. I get some sun, I get to visit with everyone, and I don’t have to look like an idiot in front of my friends. However, dudes can get their own beer. Their arms work just as well as mine.

      3. Liane*

        OP, please suggest this site to the woman at your workplace who offered to do this. As well as anyone who heard and, unlike you, doesn’t realize this is a bad idea.

    5. TakeOut4Life*

      Oh my gosh I try to weasel my way out of cooking classes every time. I hate cooking and I get a huge sense of dread whenever anyone mentions it as a team building activity. Just, please no…….

    6. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

      All the other thing you suggested would make me really uncomfortable compared to fourish hours driving a golf cart and hanging out.
      But to pull something from an earlier post this week – You do You.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Or you could just give people a cash bonus and let them do whatever they want with it.

      2. Michaela Westen*

        I suggested something similar downthread. I don’t think a group of people who are accustomed to hours of outdoor physical activity would be satisfied with just an evening BBQ though.
        I was thinking an all-day picnic where the children could play, where people could toss around balls and frisbees, maybe even a pickup game of some sort, and if there are any avid grillers on the staff, they could do the grilling and show off their skills. If not, then a caterer, or a caterer for everything else.
        Then in the evening maybe a guitar player or easy-listening band, maybe even a dance floor?
        That sounds like a satisfying day for the athletic!

        1. Michaela Westen*

          By all-day I mean beginning in early afternoon.
          Or make it a lunch thing – begin at 10am and end at 6-ish…

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            11 – 5, so people can get home for dinner. Local, etc. This is actually what my employer does. They have a catered outdoor meal with vegetarian / halal / kosher options near a playground / open field / frisbee golf course. They provide lawn darts, bocce and horseshoes, and let the employees pick what they want to play. It’s very popular.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              A *lot* of people don’t play anything, just sit around chatting. There’s not usually beer.

              1. Michaela Westen*

                Yes, that would be me. I enjoy chatting. :) I’ll eat a couple of burgers too.
                Ideally there would be food all day, so attendees wouldn’t have to go home and cook dinner!

            2. blackcat*

              This was my wedding (part of it, anyways). Nice park. Catered sandwiches. A ton of lawn games. No booze (because public park). It was really nice! People had fun! It was like 4 hours of chilling.
              There was dinner + booze that night, but it was the picnic everyone enjoyed the most.

    9. Lissa*

      Noooo any suggested event is going to get a bunch of people who hate it (at least here in the comments!) or can’t do it. IMO, either there need to be no events or it just needs to be accepted that there is just no way to pick an event everyone will enjoy.

      The problem with golf is that the enjoyment of it breaks down along gender lines enough that it’s really bad. IMO, it wouldn’t be a problem if you picked an event a couple people happened not to like. But, others disagree with me and are more on the side of no events because there just isn’t a way to do one that will please everyone, which also is a good point.

      The idea would be to have a selection of events but that isn’t always feasible depending on size, finances etc. And some people just hate all work events no matter what but also don’t want to be left out!

      1. Micklak*

        I like the idea of rotating activities, because clearly everyone won’t agree. Maybe there could be sporty, crafty and leisure activities. The only caveat would be that the execs/managers would be required to split up among the activities. They would sacrifice their love of golf to offer a true reward to their salespeople.

      2. Working Mom Having It All*

        My current job does a company-wide volunteer service day. They choose a few local nonprofits which need drop-in help (food bank, animal shelter, Habitat For Humanity, stuff like that), as well as some which are of the handicraft variety where people can do the activity from our work site. For example this year the onsite volunteer activities included making fleece throw blankets for kids in the local children’s hospital. The idea is that you have your choice of ways to participate according to your interests or physical needs. Nothing is particularly gendered, though I guess it’s possible that more men choose to do Habitat while more women choose to make blankets. It’s a good way to network across the company, and I’m pretty sure higher up execs are encouraged to spread out so that there’s no one “good” opportunity that allows for face time with VIPs while the others are known to be duds.

        Obviously one service day that includes the whole company isn’t the same thing as a team trip that is seen as a reward and bit of vacation. But surely there’s a way to either factor this into the trip (they all volunteer together rather than all golfing together) or add the spirit of this sort of thing into the trip by giving everyone choices of what activities to do rather than framing it as a golf trip that is being “ruined” by the women not playing golf.

        1. Tinker*

          The company I work for also does a company-wide volunteer service day very much like what you describe, down to one of the recent options being the fleece-blanket-for-local-children’s-hospital thing, and my impression of it has been similar — I wouldn’t be surprised if the VIPs were intentionally spreading themselves out, as awareness of diversity issues like that one is the expected norm for leaders in my company.

          It’s a while since golf (at least actual golf, and not putt putt or Top Golf) has been A Thing where I’ve worked, so this scenario still being a thing somewhere has been a bit surprising to me.

    10. Ashley*

      We had an outing and need a few people to drive the beer cart. The women in my office loved it and begged to do it again the next year. Mind you these women wouldn’t have been at the event otherwise but there are some personalities that enjoy it. (And some who can fake it for the networking.)

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        Are you sure they really loved it though, or did they “fake it for the networking?”

        Your phrasing makes it sound like women in junior roles who wouldn’t have otherwise been invited to the event – but are there equal numbers of men in those junior roles, and, vice versa, women in senior/included roles?

      2. Emily K*

        I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad idea to ask for volunteers to drive the cart, but it shouldn’t be offered as a consolation prize to the gender whose interests were otherwise ignored when planning the trip.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Or loved it, but in a relative sense. I’d far rather do that than play golf, but I’d FAR RATHER have a bonus or extra days off or whatever than even drive the beer cart. If my options are drive the beer cart or miss out entirely, sure, I’ll drive the beer cart, but I’d rather have options other than this event entirely.

    11. Vicky Austin*

      How about taking everyone on a river cruise or a harbor cruise? That’s something that everyone can do regardless of color, gender, race, religion, and ability; and that you don’t need any special skills to do. It’s also a great opportunity for socializing and networking.

  5. copier queen*

    “The sales team of 10-15 people in two branches are the only ones eligible for the trip because they are paid via commission, and therefore do not receive bonuses under our pay structure.”
    Easy solution – award the sales team members – male and female – bonuses at a very nice dinner in your city, in lieu of having a trip. Calculate the bonuses by dividing the cost of the trip by the number of people on the sales team. Hold the dinner on a Thursday night and give everyone Friday off.

    3. merp*

      Oh my god, yes, why is the pay structure the barrier here? Change that and your problem goes away.

    5. Mimi Me*

      Yes to this! Frankly I’d rather have a bonus (even taxed as they are) than any day out with my co-workers.

      1. Fergus, Stealer of Pens and Microwaver of Fish*

        Bonuses are not taxed differently (in the US.)

        1. Not Me*

          Bonuses are usually taxed at the supplemental rate, which would be higher than normal salary income.

          1. goducks*

            No. Bonus paychecks may have withholding at the supplemental rate, but all earned income is taxed alike when it comes to filing your tax return. If the withholding at the supplemental rate results in over-withholding, the extra is part of the tax refund.
            The idea that bonus earnings are taxed at a higher rate is a pernicious myth.

            1. Emily K*

              Yep, this is exactly how it worked for me the years I’ve gotten a bonus. The withholding is all screwy on it so you only get about 50% of it up-front, but I got a somewhat fatter tax return those years as a result of the bonus.

              1. Liz*

                Me as well. My company has given a generous bonus every year i’ve been here. My base is 10% of my salary but it usually is closer to 15%. And while i only get a little more than half initially, my tax refund generally is pretty generous.

      2. CJ*

        Yes! And this trip sounds like two overnights with coworkers in a cabin (shudder!). I would hate spending my weekend this way, but would feel the need make use of it as my only “bonus” and to look like a team player. A bonus would be so much more appreciated.

    6. Sara without an H*

      I think this could be a winner. Cash, dinner on the boss’s dime, and a paid day off. What’s not to like?

    7. Ellex*

      Now THIS is a good idea. I worked for a wonderful but very small law office for a while, and our boss took us to a half corporate meeting with our main client/half getaway weekend at a local resort. Golfing or a spa day were offered, neither of which interests me, and the beds were incredibly uncomfortable. The only bright spot was the excellent dinner. It didn’t help that the weather that weekend turned chilly (not uncommon even for late spring where I live – we had a frost advisory just last night!), so even the golfing wouldn’t have been that nice.

      It’s hard to find any group activity that’s going to please everyone, but no one objects to a bit of extra money and it’s rare that you can’t find a nice restaurant to accommodate a 10-15 person group, even if a few people have dietary restrictions.

    11. Oaktree*

      Yes, this is the best idea.

      Personally, if the idea is to reward your employees for their good work… well, to me being forced to spend an entire weekend with my coworkers (even though I like them!) would be hell, not a reward. And it might be technically optional but the reality is that you a) lose networking opportunities and b) don’t look like a team player, so it’s not really all that optional after all.

      1. TexanInExile*

        This. I like my co-workers, too, but spending my weekend with them is work, not fun. Organize the events during the work week and please let me have my weekends to stay home and binge-watch Rake.

      2. Quandong*

        Like Oaktree above, spending a weekend with coworkers would be hellish for me. I’d need to take a day off afterward to recover from it, as well. It would be the complete opposite of a reward!

      1. MinnieK*

        I would build on this and suggest that you schedule more networking events that are not focused on physical activities during workdays throughout the year. Lunch and learns, team lunches, quarterly visits to different sites, etc. I work for an organization that has offices all along the eastern seaboard and we meet with our counterparts a couple times a year to team build and network – within the regular workday. Since it seems like your locations are close to each other, one thing that would work is taking a meeting that is normally a conference call with the two locations and turning it into an in-person meeting. We do this monthly with another local site and trade off who hosts the meeting. I think if you roll this out by saying, we are replacing this weekend with 1) big fancy dinner, 2) a nice check, 3) extra day off, plus an initiative to incorporate more networking opportunities into the regular work schedule, you may avoid some complaining from staff about the changes. You just have to pitch it as a new, more valuable thing.

        1. OP*

          Thank you.

          I want to clarify that most of the golf outing our team participates in are not company events, but invitations from their customers etc. This is our only company exclusive golf event.

          1. WellRed*

            Of course, it’s the customer’s right to do so, but it puts female employees at the same disadvantage as the company outing.

            2. OP*

              That is where my original support of the lessons as a benefit idea was rooted.

              No matter your gender, in some B2B sales markets knowing how to play golf can be an advantage. Some circles maybe its fitness classes or yoga, or going out to bars at night. Here it seems to be mostly golf.

    13. bloody mary*

      Nthing this as the best solution!

      This golf trip is spending the money these people have earned for them. Give them the money and let them decide what they want to spend it on.

    15. EddieSherbert*

      +100 to this. I would so much rather get… more money!… than ANY activity my work could come up with.

    16. mf*

      Fantastic idea. If avid golfers really want a golf outing, they can use their bonus $$ to arrange their own personal time.

    19. Smithy*

      In terms of rewarding employees – there really is nothing compared to cash and time off. But in regards to having quality time to spend with senior leadership – it really fails at providing a matching opportunity on that front.

      I work in an industry that’s mostly women and yet still manages to have a very high representation of men in senior leadership compared to the overall staff composition. In my role, I know I have not had the opportunity to naturally work as much with our main Sr Director as others in my role. So when on a random afternoon team bonding museum scavenger hunt I saw we were on the same small team, I was thrilled. Finally some quality face time!

      Ultimately the Sr Director was too busy and couldn’t make it – which is what it is. But it wasn’t that I really wanted to do the scavenger hunt or wouldn’t have preferred extra cash. But the opportunity to have that kind of relaxed opportunity with my Sr Leadership was golden to me different than cash, time off, or a love of competitive scavenger hunts.

      Golf is gendered and thus represents a clear issue. But it’s worth teasing out the difference between employee perks and more jr employees getting networking time with leadership. Those are different concerns and just giving out a check does not address the full issue.

  6. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I’m confused. Why can’t the women who don’t play golf attend the event the same way that men who don’t play golf do? You said participants don’t have to play well or they can drink a beer and watch.

    Don’t get me wrong. I agree with everything AAM said here. Your reward needs to change.

    But if men previously didn’t play golf and attended anyway, then why is there concern that women cannot do the same?

    1. nothanks*

      i think the expectation is that they won’t want to. for example, i would find a day sitting in a cart, drinking essentially alone, watching male coworkers i don’t know super well yet golf, to be extremely boring

      1. Justme, The OG*

        I would also feel the same if it were female coworkers, not just male coworkers.

      2. Snorks*

        If you are in a beer cart, and you are alone, you aren’t doing it right.
        People playing golf will be in teams of 4 presumably. The person in the beer cart will have access to everyone.

    2. Jennifer*

      I guess maybe because it’s still a male-centric event. There are women who love golf, and there are some who wouldn’t mind riding around in the cart and not playing, but the optics aren’t good. I know nothing about golf and am not really interested in learning. I’d feel really left out of the conversation. This is how women have been kept in the dark for decades.

      An extreme comparison, but I know there are some male-dominated companies that meet with clients at strip clubs. Sure, the women are free to come, but do they feel comfortable and included? Go golf and watch strippers on your own time.

      1. Mystery Bookworm*

        Or as a gender-flipped comparison…I work on a very female-dominated team. I suspect that our male colleagues wouldn’t be thrilled if we organised a spa day or mani/pedi afternoon as team bonding*. I think because golf is such a traditional ‘business’ activity, we sometimes don’t see that it is just an activity and there’s nothing more inherently workplace-friendly about golf than many other activities.

        *plenty of the woman wouldn’t be thrilled either probably, but I also know plenty of (upper-middle class, white) men who only go to workplace golf with reluctance, so I think the comparison still stands.

        2. General Ginger*

          I think it’s very sad that we feel that men couldn’t benefit from/wouldn’t want spa days, and position them as women-only activities.

          1. Mystery Bookworm*

            I see what you’re saying – I wasn’t trying to suggest that men couldn’t benefit from a spa day (actually got my Dad a gift card to spa last year)!

            But I hope that the comparison makes it more clear how silly it is hang on to a particular activity as important to team bonding when it’s just that – an activity – that’s not inherently related to work. I think so many people associate golf with buisness that sometimes it’s hard to realise how cultured those assumptions are, rather than grounded in any particular logic.

          2. Jadelyn*

            It’s not so much that anyone actually feels that men couldn’t benefit from or wouldn’t want spa days, just that culturally speaking they’re a heavily gendered thing in the same way that golf is. Is golf inherently masculine? No. There are plenty of women who play golf, enjoy golf, would enjoy golf if they were introduced to it, etc. Same for spa days and men – plenty of men who do spa days and enjoy it. But on a wider cultural level, it’s a feminine stereotype in the same way that golf as a boy’s club is a masculine stereotype.

        3. Per My Last Telegram*

          I could think of something like a shopping spree at boutiques.

          (I also a female would hate this as much as golf)

          But the whole point is that if you find that your company is excluding a good number of your team because of the activity, then you need to change it up. Finding something everyone loves is absolutely impossible and there will always be someone who would rather go home. But if you see something a good hunk of people don’t like, and especially if it falls on gender lines, then you need to change it fast.

        4. tamarack and fireweed*

          Yes, that. If you have a male-marked activity in a male-dominated industry it’s simply not the same if a man declines compared to if a woman declines. A man can say “I’m not into golf, but I’ll tag along, drink beer and watch you making a fool of yourselves,” and it’ll be his decision. A woman *might* be able to get away with that if she’s invested in the “one of the guys” role (which personally I sometimes do as it can be the path of least resistance … doesn’t mean it’s fun or great). But if it’s three women, and some of them have no business with pretending to be “one of the guys” then it becomes clear that golf is just not something women do for fun anywhere near to how men do it.

          Think of another example. Say, classy British law office, lawyers typically from wealthy or at least semi-wealthy background, privately educated etc. They go out for an opera evening every year. And then times change, and they get more and more women, more and more people from lower-middle-class or working class backgrounds, and people whose parents were refugees and who have clawed their way through higher education and into a prestigious law firm. There is no reason at all for any of the new crop not to like opera, or to be open to trying it out, but chances are, fewer do! And some will feel uncomfortable in an environment that they perceive to be out of their realm of experiences. So it’ll not be the same if any of the old-guard men says “nah, I just can’t stand that singing – you go, and you can join me at my club later” than when any of the lawyers with a non-traditional background declines: the latter will be fraught with issues of class.

          As a rule of thumb, I think group activities should be of the type that if anyone declines it won’t be reflexively attributed to their gender, background, ethnicity etc. . And in a diverse workplace that may mean offering some choice, or even replacing the chummy activities with something less cliquish, like money or a work-related but highly prized learning opportunity.

    3. fposte*

      It’s because it’s *all* the women. The business is sponsoring a special event that sidelines all their female employees. It doesn’t matter if the occasional man has been sidelined too–it’s that every single female employee isn’t going to participate in the main focus of the trip.

      There are plenty of women who do play golf, of course, and if the OP’s business had one sidelined man and one sidelined woman, with tons of both on the course, it wouldn’t present as the same immediate problem.

      1. Jennifer*

        Exactly. You will never find one activity that will make every single person on the team happy, but one person choosing not to go is different from everyone of the same gender being basically excluded.

        1. fposte*

          This is reminding me of when I worked in insurance 30+ years ago and one of my colleagues was involved in an exec’s industry outing that had shopping and pampering excursions for the wives [sic]. She wrote a wonderful satiric letter about her husband’s participation in those events.

          Takeaway for OP: this was already out of date in the 1980s.

          1. Jennifer*

            Oh…my…God.

            I mean, I wouldn’t mind spending a day at the spa, but wow, the optics of that.

            1. fposte*

              Yeah, she wasn’t that old and it was more than usually male-dominated corner of the industry, so I was really impressed with her willingness to call them out (plus it was a very funny letter). There were a few really badass women in that company.

          3. Bethany*

            I was one of three female participants at a conference of about 200 people three years ago. The wives were given the option of wine tasting at a local vineyard.

            During the welcome dinner on the first night, several of the men (clients who I had worked for remotely for the previous two years) asked me whether I was going to the ‘wives’ event, or whether I was actually going to participate in the conference.

            It made me feel hurt that these people didn’t see me as a professional in the same way they saw my male colleagues.

          4. CM*

            This just happened to my friend last year! She and her husband are both lawyers. Her husband made partner at a big law firm and was invited to his first partner retreat. He was told that it was basically mandatory for him to bring his wife to the retreat, so they rearranged their schedules and found childcare for the weekend. She was surprised when she spent the weekend going to boutique shopping trips, spas, and musicals while the (nearly all-male) partners talked business. Sadly, it was out of date in the 1980s, but it’s still alive and well.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Exactly this (plus the privilege comment downthread). It’s absolutely unacceptable for a business to promote this kind of activity, and they need to do some internal soul-searching on how to make this inclusive instead of trying to preserve their all-dude-golfing-extravaganza.

        1. OP*

          Do you think it is similarly unacceptable for nonprofits to raise money by hosting golf events? That is most of what we participate in.

            1. Reliquary*

              There are a couple of reasons that I think it is indeed a bad idea for nonprofits to fundraise via golf events. In my opinion, the second reason is more important than the first. (1) Sporting events as fundraisers in general have a poor ROI. They can be more complicated to plan than other sorts of events (something-a-thons, fun runs), and tend to be one-time transactions rather than establishing longer-term relationships with donors. There is data on this. (2) They are culturally exclusionary. Even if your nonprofit wants to target rich people as donors, this sets up a homogeneous donor base in which race (whiteness) and gender (maleness) and sexuality (straightness) are norms. Activities without historical and present-day associations with a particular privileged demographic are going to have better optics (and likely better financial results) for a company.

              1. OP*

                In my experience, number 2 is usually true.
                Number one not so much. One organization I am involved in nets a few hundred thousand a year from a charity golf event.

                It would be an extremely unusual decision to stop doing something like that because of number 2. Especially if the fundraiser supports those groups.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Here in NY, NPOs have to be transparent. Meetings on a golf course are not transparent. Next, define “meeting” and we have a definition for that word. It is possible to fill the definition of the word meeting while standing on a golf course. That is someone could say that you had an impromptu meeting which did not follow the rules of compliance for meeting. You could get cited by the state and/or sued by the public.

              Not only do general board meetings have to be announced well in advance so do committee meetings. There is no way in heck business can be done on a golf course and be in compliance.

              So here not only are there problems with excluding protected classes there are also problems with lawsuits from not following compliance rules for meetings. You can get sued from every side here.
              If you come to NY you all will be so busy reading all. the. compliance rules, NO ONE will ever have time for golfing again in their lives.

            3. MsM*

              Speaking as a fundraiser, I think it would be irresponsible for the nonprofit not to assess whether a charity golf tournament was still satisfying the organization’s needs on a regular basis.

            4. Beth*

              The line is that you, as an employer, cannot plan networking events, team bonding outings, and other perks that end up segregated on gender lines. This is true regardless of whether it’s your intent or not; it’s the impact that matters, not whether it’s on purpose or not.

              Work events are different–that’s a job duty, not a bonus/perk. Hosting golf events as a job duty is totally fine. Though, if that truly is a big portion of your team’s job duties, you probably should give golf lessons to everyone as a matter of routine job training. That still wouldn’t mean it’s OK to do a golf trip as a perk, by the way; it doesn’t make it physically accessible to everyone, it’s still a highly gendered sport (there are still courses that don’t allow women, for example), so you should find a more universally accessible way to honor your employees’ hard work. But it’s generally OK to require play for a job duty in a way that it isn’t for a networking opportunity/team bonding trip.

    4. JokeyJules*

      this is a good point, i’m wondering if he asked if they were willing or just if they play golf. Maybe it’s the gendered history of work golf events?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        This also crossed my mind. Besides mentioning the one woman who offered to be a “cart girl” (??), I didn’t see anything in the letter saying they actually asked the women what they think of this trip or if they want to play golf.

    5. Rayner*

      Let’s look at it the other way. Say it was a shopping trip, (stereotype to the max) and the dudes would have the option of attending but spending most of the day sat outside dressing rooms, carrying bags, and waiting around. They could go shopping and they might have the same time and money investment but the benefits they would get – bonding, material networking, etc – are much less than the women.

      Same this time. You’re inviting people to an activity not all enjoy, that historically would ostracise them, and if they don’t play, they don’t get the benefits. Being a cart girl =/= same as playing. This is supposed to be a reward – but it isn’t a reward across the board so they need to rethink how they look at it.

      1. Jennifer*

        An 80’s movie shopping montage is playing in my head. “Big mistake! Huge!”

        But you’re right. There are men that like to shop, so if every man enjoyed themselves it might not be an issue, but if they were all going to be sidelined as purse holders, it would be a problem. I wonder if that’s ever happened?

      2. IrisEyes*

        Your description of tag-along shopping is greatly reminiscent of teenage me’s experience at theme parks.

      3. Mr. Shark*

        If they offered an alternative for people who didn’t want to go shopping, I would have no problem accepting that for what it is. I wouldn’t be worried about networking with the women higher-ups.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          If EVERY manager or director at your organization was a woman and would be participating in feminine-coded activities for the entirety of the trip and you never had a chance to get one-on-one face time with anybody at a higher level of power with the ability to promote you or recommend you for jobs, you wouldn’t be worried about that? If women were much more likely to be promoted in your field than men were, and you never had the opportunity to form the same kinds of bonds with your management as your women counterparts, you wouldn’t be worried about that? Because that’s what we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about one weekend away. We’re talking about a system and a power structure that has been in place since time immemorial that makes it easier for men to get raises and promotions than women.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Even if this went on for decades and for decades you did not have access to TPTB? Any one can skip one shopping trip or one golf game and not miss that much. But there is a tipping point, where a person has missed too much and they are no longer on the radar.

        3. Quandong*

          Wow Mr. Shark.

          I think you may not fully grasp the level of systemic sexism that exists in society today, to write such a comment.

          What if your success and chances of promotion at work depended on networking with the higher-ups at any opportunity, for your entire work life?

          Would you be so cavalier about missing out because you were excluded from participating in activities with the higher-ups?

    6. Savannnah*

      An inclusive company open to all talents would back away from a golf outing- it’s just signaling: hey, only white men used to work here and we haven’t done the work to address this in our culture, we’ve just added employees who aren’t white men and hoped it would somehow sort itself out- which isn’t the way to proactively address those changes.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, this is a really important point. I’d say there are three interrelated problems with the golf outing: it’s leaving out your female employees, which you wouldn’t want to do whatever the activity; it’s dependent on a monoculture for its assumption of enjoyment; and the monoculture is a dated one associated with asymmetric and unfair privilege.

        NGL, there are people who will like a golf outing *better* because of the above. But I hope those aren’t the people the OP wants to attract and reward.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          You’ve been fantastic in this comment section about really cutting through to the core issues of this, fposte. Bravo.

      2. merp*

        And relatedly, it signals certain higher class expectations as well! Didn’t golf start as the hobby of rich white men? Lots of reasons to ditch this, imo.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Golf is an expensive hobby. Clubs are expensive, golf clothes are expensive, lessons and the cost to actually go golfing, it adds up fast. Golf as a historical cultural phenomenon is absolutely saturated in wealth, whiteness, and maleness.

          1. Autumnheart*

            Let us also include the blatant replication of aristocracy that is the “country club”. Like, the whole point of a private golf club is to be exclusive and concentrate privilege within a group of people! Telling people to learn how to golf is not going to erase the history of what these clubs are actually for.

          2. Quandong*

            In addition, pursuit of golf takes vast swathes of time – fine for the wealthy, not for everyone else.

      3. goducks*

        Yes, this exactly. It’s unsurprising that this company has only just now had women in the sales department. There’s a lot of culture work that needs to happen there.

        1. Jadelyn*

          That may not be as much an issue with the company’s culture as it is sales as a whole. Any place I’ve worked that had direct salespeople, the sales department was always heavily male-dominated. I think it’s a wider issue than this one company’s culture.

          1. OP*

            That, small departments and low turnover don’t help.

            We have had female sales associates in the past that transitioned to other roles… but no recent longterm successes.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Has anyone tried to figure out why the women associates do not stay?
              It sounds almost like the low turn over rates relate more directly to the men than it does to the women.

              1. OP*

                In this department that is true, but not company wide. Most of our buyers are female, and what I usually here back from the female reps is they are either extremely happy to see a female salesperson walk in the door or threatened/cold.

                I think in this job personality type/hunger has more to do with success than gender. If you are satisfied making 40K a year, that really isn’t the person we are looking to keep. We have had plenty of those in the past and it isn’t going to work for us long term just because the rep is OK with that income level, but an internal position might be a better fit.

      4. Washi*

        This is exactly what I thought. Up until this point, you’ve been taking your all-male sales team on a golf outing – why does your world so closely resemble Mad Men c. 1960?

        1. OP*

          On a once every year or two basis? This isnt a weekly outing… Didn’t realize that was so outlandish until today.

          Back in the 80s and 90s we sent the admin staff (all female…. as you might have guessed) on shopping trips for the day. It was *allegedly* extremely well received.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Back in the 80s women had to accept what was ever given them and act like it was the most wonderful thing. I remember job hunting in the 80s, professional advisers at that time told me I could be a teacher. a secretary or a nurse. Those were my choices as a woman.

    7. Gaia*

      Because it is still gendered. The men are on the course networking and solidifying relationships with management. The women are at the cart being excluded. If it was one woman who didn’t want to golf, and the others were excited about it, and that one woman was okay with hanging back it would be (a bit) different. But it is the entire group of women. That is a problem.

    8. Liane*

      In addition, as the OP himself writes, “if you are not actively playing golf in this tournament style weekend, you will be missing time with managers and owners of the company.”
      Riding in the cart* still isolates you, to a lesser degree maybe, from managers and owners.

      *even if you aren’t passing out beer to The Menfolks

    9. Collarbone High*

      There’s a world of difference between “can’t play well” and “it will be a miracle if this person hits the ball.” I imagine the golfers are thinking, we won’t mind if the women aren’t good at it, but I suspect that goodwill would evaporate pretty quickly for an actual terrible player.

      I have zero hand-eye coordination, and even at mini-golf, I can sense people getting frustrated with me after 2-3 holes. Becoming known at a work outing as “the idiot who constantly held up our group” isn’t going to promote that person’s standing with management. And as a woman, I’d be really reluctant to join in with people saying “oh it’s OK, you can still play” because I’d not only annoy everyone and embarrass myself, but also reinforce a “see, women are bad at sports” narrative.

    10. Allypopx*

      The legal concept is disparate impact vs disparate treatment. If it’s impacting – what sounds like – 100% of the women and only like 20% of the men, that’s a real legal issue because the men are getting benefits that the women aren’t getting at a calculable rate, even if it’s unintentional.

    11. Op*

      They can. The reason I asked was more about alternatives that may be more appealing, and since it is a group, not a single person, alternatives for the group like a day trip during golf.

      1. CR*

        So you think the solution is to further isolate men and women in the workplace by sending the women shopping, because naturally women be shopping. You are part of the problem.

        1. JJ*

          Gosh, I think the OP’s original letter showed he’s trying really hard to be sensitive to this issue and wants to fix it. There’s of course blind spots but he’s trying. If we don’t give people space to figure this sort of thing out, we’re not going to get anywhere.

          The harshness towards him in this comment section is really discouraging. And for what it’s worth, I’m a woman, I enjoy golfing, I think a reward trip centered solely around golf is a terrible idea, and I’d totally take up an offer of “golf lessons” as one of the available activities on a group trip.

          1. just my opinion*

            Agreed. It’s really disappointing to see people being so hard on someone who is clearly trying to do the right thing, even if his first suggestion for the “right thing” was off base.

        2. OP*

          I was not suggesting that I “send them shopping”. I suggested a day trip to a destination city with cash in hand. Do whatever you want with the cash….

          I asked for help because I recognized this was a problem, and have gotten a lot of good advice.. I don’t think you are being helpful, or trying to be helpful.

          1. Autumnheart*

            The only way the day trip with cash would work is if the managers were going on the day trip, and not to the golf course with the golfers.

            The whole point of the trip is to be able to foster your work relationship with management. When you literally send people to a different city instead of letting them get the same face time, you are discriminating against them.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          First impulse was an error, sure, but he’s checking it. Give him some credit for that.

      2. Missy*

        Why does it need to be a group event? What is the actual purpose of the event? A lot of time things start for one reason and then continue because of momentum and tradition, but there isn’t any need for it anymore.

        Imagine that there is no event currently and you are starting from scratch. What is the purpose of this? Is it to team build? Is it a reward? A lot of your answers for why the fold trip sound more like post-hoc rationalizations of why the golf trip is good, and that is pretty normal. That is how human brains work. Which is why we are pretending the golf trip isn’t a thing and just listing the things we want to do with whatever bonus we choose. If it is a reward than money is fine. If it is team building then there are plenty of professional team building events that you can attend that will be focused more on building good skills like an escape room. Is this about getting to know one another? Then why not use the money and have a monthly or quarterly dinner out as a company?

        1. Michaela Westen*

          Even better, something like a buffet style party where people can move around and mingle and eat as much or little as they want. Seating everyone at tables restricts opportunities to get to know each other, to the people nearby.

    12. AspieGirl*

      I think some of the problem is too if they’re staying overnight somewhere in communal living quarters (OP mentioned putting all the women in a cabin together), and all of the VIPs are male, you’ve given one gender preferrential access to management potentially if all of the men stay in a single cabin together.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup. Are there no hotels here where everyone can stay? Why are they sequestered by gender?

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          You mention a lot of the sales team has kids. Why? It doesn’t sound like they’re included in this, are you thinking ‘maybe we could find a way to expand it to include families’?

        2. goducks*

          All the more reason this is a gender discrimination nightmare. The women go back to their cabin, but the dudes stay up late into the night bonding with management. Totally unequal access.

          1. OP*

            I didn’t see it that way, because we usually had one larger house where we would gather, and everyone would be able to go back to their house/cabin to sleep or retreat for the night. But I see your point.

    13. pamela voorhees*

      I will also say you have a huge potential for danger in “don’t have to play well.” I’m a fairly talented sketcher who’s good with proportions, shading, etc. but I wouldn’t say I’m that good, because my definition of “good” is photorealism. If we have a drawing party or whatever and I tell someone who’s never doodled anything more complicated than a wiggly line “oh, it’s okay, I’m not that good either” and then we all have to sketch something together, they’re definitely going to get embarrassed. And if you’re playing golf in teams, this will lead to active exclusion because even though everyone swears it’s low stakes, the odds anyone will want the total beginner on their team are low to nothing.

    1. MatKnifeNinja*

      FWIW…

      Around the courses here, the cart girl/cart person makes mad mad insane money from April to whenever the high school/college person goes back to school. The courses get tons of applications. The drivers get minimum wage, but the tips are incredible. The same goes for caddies.

      If I had to deal with the public, driving a cart around hands down beats working a fryer.

      I’m not going to pound on a coworker saying she doesn’t mind being a cart girl. She may have paid her schooling through that gig.

      1. goducks*

        I think you’re missing the point. There’s nothing wrong with someone having that as their paid job. The problem is having a female employee who is supposed to be the men’s equal at their beck and call as their unpaid server. Even worse if they tip her!
        The entire thing is so beyond cringe-worthy.

      2. Winnie*

        I don’t think nutella is objecting to cart girls in general! There’s nothing wrong with being a cart girl, just as there is nothing wrong with working a fryer.
        The problem here is a sales exec being sidelined to being a cart girl (usually a position of customer service), while the rest of the team is enjoying the actual hobby as customers. It creates a weird power dynamic on a trip that should be about colleagues who are equals.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I’m so confused by this response. Of course being a cart girl is not a problem when it’s your job. But asking women to serve in a subordinated and service role (for free) for their male peers is gross and sexist, which is the problem OP identified. No one’s pounding on the coworker—they’re pounding on the idea of asking women to serve men at an event designed to exclude those women from access and participation in valuable networking opportunities.

      4. EventPlannerGal*

        …but that has nothing to do with the networking/exclusion/overall vibe of the trip. Even if that one person has positive associations with being a “cart girl”, I doubt all of them will and even if they did, it doesn’t make the whole concept less exclusionary because as “cart girls” they will not get the same opportunities to network. And they will spend the whole trip being seen by their colleagues not as Sarah, Fellow Golfer but as Sarah, The Girl With My Beer.

    2. Don*

      I mean, I guess, though it seems to me like that’s about as low a bar as giving someone credit for not trying to solve their ant problem by burning down the building.

      1. nutella fitzgerald*

        That was not lost on me, but I figured I would keep it positive and forge ahead regardless.

  8. Jennifer*

    I need to have a conversation with the WOMAN who suggested they should be “cart girls.” Girl, what are you thinking?

    The last company I worked for did a retreat at a spa resort with a vineyard, where they did wine tasting and other activities. Maybe you can send out a survey for suggestions, including just eliminating the trip altogether, then send out another survey asking people to choose from the top 5 suggestions.

    I know this is going to suck for the people who enjoy golfing, but you have to understand that this is one of the ways women have been held back professionally for decades. Things are going to have to change. At least you recognize it could be an issue and are trying to make things right.

    1. Tigger*

      I would not be surprised if she is younger and was a cart girl in college/ right after college. I was a cart attendant and made bank off of tips so maybe she doesn’t see it as a bad thing, especially if the non golfing guys in the past handed out beers too. (Not that I am defending that but I am just trying to understand her logic)

      1. Jennifer*

        I think she wants to show that she’s the “cool girl” and isn’t going to make waves. It’s something a lot of young women default to and it only hurts us in the end.

        1. Tigger*

          Yes, or she doesn’t get how the optics look, especially since male colleagues who don’t golf did the exact same thing in the past. I think that if I was in this situation I would offer to drive a cart and be in charge of the beer so no one is driving around after a few too many, especially if one of the other men isn’t golfing.

          This situation is still very icky

        2. Manon*

          *insert Gone Girl Cool Girl monologue here*

          But yeah, I think this could just be her not wanting to cause problems. She might not have considered how it would look if EVERY woman was just there to help serve the guys.

            1. Autumnheart*

              Yeah, that character was a bona-fide Terrible Person, but man, that monologue just nailed it like *chef’s kiss*.

        3. Half-Caf Latte*

          exactly this. I was totally thinking that 24-year old me would have gone along with this or even suggested it in order to not make waves and not be seen as one of those “cranky feminists”, whereas now I’m a proud lone cranky feminist without an action figure.

    2. Roscoe*

      I’ll be honest, I get if its not your thing, but I don’t know why you should shame someone who may want to do that. She may find riding in the cart with them and not playing, and just drinking to be fun, even if she grabs a beer here and there. Maybe she did that job in college and she enjoyed it. Maybe it reminds her of hanging with her brothers growing up. Again, I don’t think that should be an option presented to the women, but I don’t think its this sin that someone may want to do it.

      1. Jennifer*

        Oh, I’m going to shame the heck out of her because it sets women back 100 years. She is an equal, not there to be at the men’s beck and call. It’s bad optics. There’s nothing wrong with being nice and occasionally going to grab a beer for someone if they return the favor occasionally, but being a designated waitress when that’s not your job? Not in this century. No sir. It’s demeaning.

        1. Roscoe*

          But why can’t she make her own choices? She doesn’t have to represent all women, just herself. I’m black. I don’t always want to have to think about how I represent black people, just to represent me. I think its great when people take on their whole culture/gender/sexuality etc as a cause, but everyone doesn’t want to, nor should they have to. A gay person shouldn’t be told that “dressing flamboyantly sets gay people back 100 years”, they should be able to do what they want. I would hate to be told because I decided to do something stereotypically associated with black people, that I’m setting back black people in business.

          Again, your choice is your choice, but let others have their choice. If someone wants to be a cart girl, or a stay at home mom, or clean up after people, that is THEIR choice, not yours to make for them.

          1. Turquoisecow*

            Because she suggested it as an option for other women, there’s a sort of pressure for other women to agree to it.

            It’s demeaning. This woman is presumably a competent adult saleswoman, who has some respect in the eyes of her colleagues. Being a “cart girl” would mean putting her in a service position. She’s no longer a competent saleswoman, she’s their waitress. Barmaid, even.

            The men are talking about their shots and averages and all that stuff – she’s not participating in that conversation any more than the bartender would participate in their bonding if they were hanging out in a bar. She’s not included, she’s relegated to a position on the sidelines, AND a position of servitude toward the men.

            If that’s what an individual woman wants to do, sure. But it’s going to set up an expectation in this company that this is an acceptable alternative for women – that they can just bring us coffee while we chat about work topics. A gay man wearing a flamboyant shirt does not set himself up as a servant in the same way.

            2. Scarlet2*

              Exactly. Beyond the gendered aspect, the person who’s only there to bring beer to others is put in a subsurvient position (think about the Mad Men secretaries bringing drinks to the executives). She’s an “attendant” to guys who should be her peers.
              The optics are horrible.

            3. Roscoe*

              So, I guess I didn’t read it that way, but maybe I’m wrong. I read it as she said she would be fine doing that, not that ALL the women should do that. If the implication is all of the women should be ok with that, I can see where there would be anger. But if she just said its something she is personally willing to do, I think its fine. Not that its quite the same, but its kind of the difference between one woman volunteering to plan an outing and suggesting they all plan the outing. But I guess that is open to interpretation as well

              1. Observer*

                Well, the OP clearly read it the way the others did – they explicitly said that they don’t think the other women would go for that.

                I applaud them him for recognizing that. But, clearly this was suggested as A thing, not just “MY” thing.

              2. Half-Caf Latte*

                She’s personally willing to do it:
                1) But is she really CoolCartGirl though, or is she adept at reading the room and doesn’t want to make waves by saying she actually isnt?
                2) Let’s say this is 10000% her idea of a great time, and bosses go along with it. Now, the other two, and hypothetical future women employees, are going to be compared to CCG, who-didn’t-make-an-issue-and-even-had-a-fun-time-what’s-your-problem.

              3. Turquoisecow*

                It’s also going to be taken as a precedent in future years whether she means it to or not. “Oh, Jane was the cart girl last year, can’t you just do that?” said to the new woman they hire next year.

          2. Jennifer*

            I’m black too and a woman. And the choices I make in my workplace can affect the other women and minorities that work here. That sucks but it’s reality. The choices I make OUTSIDE of the workplace are my business. If she wants to get a second job at Hooters on the weekends, that’s her business. Do you, girl, do you. But I’ll be darned if she’s going to make the men at this very old-fashioned, regressive company think of all of us women as glorified servers. Sit down.

            Why do you care so much anyway? It’s an odd thing to be so passionate about.

            2. Roscoe*

              I’m not passionate about this situation, per se. I don’t really care about the cart girl, or golf, or anything. I’m just passionate about not having to represent “my group” at all times. I want to represent me, Roscoe, not “black men”. So because of that, I just don’t think people should be shamed for making a choice that they would like, even if others of their group may not want to make that same choice. I would never go up to another black person at my job and say “You are making all of us look bad”, and I wouldn’t want someone to say that to me.

              2. Fortitude Jones*

                But like Jennifer said, whether we want it or not, as black people in America (hell, the world), we don’t get to only just represent ourselves – we are always judged as a collective. Always. So knowing that, when you’re a part of a minority group, you should be cognizant of these optics and not volunteer to do demeaning shit to fit in because then others will be looking at the other minorities in the group like, “Well, why can’t you be more like X? X doesn’t mind bringing us beers and acting as our waitstaff – why do you?”

                Basically, this woman is setting the other women up for some bull.

            3. Delphine*

              If she wants to get a second job at Hooters on the weekends, that’s her business.

              Yikes. I was with you, but this is unnecessary and suggests you’re shaming her for something else.

              1. Jennifer*

                I’m not saying that to shame her further but pointing out that her existing there just to serve the men beers and not contribute anything to the conversation is not very different from being a server at a male-centric restaurant. If you find that comparison to be in poor taste, I’m sorry, but that’s my opinion.

            5. blackcat*

              +infinity

              I’ve totally been pissed at other women who do stuff like volunteer to take notes when it’s her and me and a bunch of men. Lady, it ain’t your job. And by you volunteering, you make it that much more likely that I’m gonna get asked next time, and that’s a hard no. Make the men take their own damn notes.

              1. Jennifer*

                Or order lunch, or clean up the conference room afterward, or wash dishes, just stop… If it’s your job, there’s nothing wrong with that, but stop offering when it’s not. Men rarely do.

                1. blackcat*

                  Or, as I often do with clean up, volunteer to do it AND volunteer a white dude or two along with you.
                  “Oh, Fergus and I have a gap between now and our next meeting. We can clean up.”
                  (in my case, Fergus is a good egg, who after a time or two of me doing this, started volunteering himself and another dude).

          3. Washi*

            Women can choose non-feminist things. It’s not feminist just because a woman chose it. Like if I decided not to vote specifically because I think only men are smart enough to do so, that is not a feminist decision just because I decided to do it.

            1. Jasnah*

              But isn’t it feminism to allow women to make non-feminist choices, if that’s what they want?
              I don’t think she should want to be a cart girl but if that’s what she wants, I don’t think it’s right to stop her. Educate her on the optics, sure, but not shame her for her choice.

          4. Autumnheart*

            Nobody is an island. She can be a “cart girl” on her own time, but she shouldn’t be modeling that expectation at her job and reinforcing the idea that women are there to serve men.

          5. Liane*

            It’s not Ms. Cart wanting to ride the cart that has some of us so upset, Roscoe, it’s her wording it as “I’ll be a cart girl!” “I don’t play but I’d love to ride/drive the cart and just watch. Maybe some other people would too,” would be more professional–even if this isn’t the best solution, which I don’t think it is.

          6. seejay*

            It would depend on the environment where someone is proposing to be the “cart girl”. Where there’s not the issue of optics within the work environment, where women are already struggling with respect and having to cement where they are in the hierarchy with fellow employees, she shouldn’t be lowering herself to “cart girl” among her fellow peers and coworkers because they’re going to treat her like that over the course of the weekend (thus excluding her from any networking/business talk) and it could easily carry over after the trip and detrimentally influence her within the workplace (see: women who aren’t taken seriously when they bring in baked goods or clean the kitchen, get stuck organizing parties and social events, when it’s not their job because “they’re better at it” as opposed to the men that are at the same level as them, or even when they’re higher up in the work structure than men, because they’re women or office “mom”).

            Yes, have the freedom to make choices, even be a cart girl, a cheerleader, any female role you want, but be aware of how it’s going to make you *look* to your coworkers and peers. In this case, do *not* serve the menfolk who should be your equals as a “cart girl”.

          7. Starbuck*

            Not all “choices” are created equal. If she’s willing to demean herself, that’s unfortunate and hopefully something she works out someday, but as the boss it’s OP’s responsibility to find a better option for his employees.

        2. Lily Rowan*

          Right! I am a woman who does not play golf. I wouldn’t mind hanging around in a group while others play. (Assuming good weather!) But be a “cart girl”?? Hell no.

          1. M&Ms fix lots of Problems*

            This is me. I am truly horrendous at golf, but would have no problem hanging out with the guys on the course in the cart. However, that does not make me a “cart girl” in any way shape or form.

        3. MatKnifeNinja*

          @Jennifer You know driving a golf cart on a course IS a summer real job?

          I get an older boomer grandpa might call them “cart girls”, but here they are called drivers. They aren’t wearing crop tops and hot pants with heels. If you are 21 and older, you can drive the cart with adults who want to stop at the “drink stations.” That is where the real money is to be made. Both men and women do this job.

          If you want to network as a young person, being a driver or caddie is not a bad deal. Especially during business events. My niece’s high school golf coach says every year he has a hand full of students getting sweet high school level internships from networking as caddies/drivers.

          The OP’s company should switch up this event since the three women don’t care (for whatever reason) golf.

          If the coworker has no issues driving a cart, small talking and not hitting a ball around, who am I to judge?

          Women tear each other faster down than men could.

          1. Jennifer*

            Sigh. She didn’t offer to just drive the cart or ride around and make small talk. She offered to be their server and bring them beers when she is a salesperson. That’s not the same.

            There is NOTHING wrong with being a waitress, a driver, a caddy, or doing any other service job, WHEN THAT’S ACTUALLY YOUR JOB. Your niece is in high school. You don’t see the difference between her and the woman the OP described? I worked service jobs for years. Most young people have. You are missing the point entirely.

          2. Half-Caf Latte*

            It’s totally an actual job. Just not the one she’s paid by this company to do!

            She’s a salesperson. Even if, and I think this is a big ol’ IF, the managers network equally with her and the men during the golf game, she’s still signaling that she’s cool with being literally subservient to her peers. Which is a problem for her, but also for the other women she works with, who are then placed into a no-win dichotomy: option 1, go along with the subservient role in order to be seen as a team-player and agreeable (since othergirl was fine with it), or option 2, be “difficult”.

            1. Decima Dewey*

              Does she want to be remembered as the crackerjack sales person who had the best teapot sales in the district, or as the “cart girl” who handled out Yuenglings and Michelobs?

          3. Properlike*

            Waitress is a job. Mother is a job. Maid is a job.

            This woman’s job is none of those things at this company.

            Stop with the “she’s a woman and you’re tearing her down (for no reason.)” When your personal choices impact my experience in the workplace, you bet I get to have an opinion.

          4. Tinker*

            There are a lot of service jobs out there that are real jobs which earn a lot of money from tips. That does not make it appropriate to set up a situation where predominantly the women in a given company are providing that service to men who are supposed to be their professional peers.

            At least one obvious example comes to mind, in addition to the one under discussion here.

        4. Engineer Girl*

          It’s about free choice, not YOUR choice. When you make it YOUR choice you are doing the same thing as any men that force her into the position.

      2. AMT*

        I think it’s more the “cart girls” remark, not the idea that some people might be okay hanging out at a golf course and not playing.

      3. LaDeeDa*

        I am not going to shame her but I am going to explain things to her. There is a difference between riding around in the cart and not playing, I’ve done that plenty of times in my life. I am happy to sit there drinking beer and trash talking right along with them. But I am not there to be the cart girl. I’ll pass a beer, but my role there isn’t to serve the menfolk. It sets her up to always be viewed as someone who isn’t an equal, and it can negatively impact her career and all the women in that organization. DON’T BE THE CART GIRL.

      4. Gaia*

        Nope, I am gonna shame the hell out of her so she knows to never make a comment like that about a workplace event again. We have enough issues with men proposing crap like this at work – we do not need to help them by making the suggestions ourselves.

        It is different if you do this socially. Live your dream, girl, live your dream. Not at work. Never. No. Not. Never. Never. No.

          1. Delphine*

            Women don’t set women back. Women exist in a patriarchal society and internalize those messages, but we are not responsible for our own oppression.

            1. Ethyl*

              Internalized misogyny is a thing and it hurts the woman who is carrying it as well as those around her.

            2. LadyofLasers*

              Ehhh, women can totally prop up and support the patriarchy, so I wouldn’t say she’s blameless. BUUUUTTT if the OP is a man, I don’t think it’s at all appropriate for him ‘to have a talk’ with her. I think it’s better to try to make a culture where she doesn’t feel the pressure to fit into the monoculture so hard.

              1. Batgirl*

                Yeah she’s clearly thinking “this is the only way” as she doesn’t have the standing to say “So……no golf this year?”

            3. Jennifer*

              Women do things that set us back all the time. I agree that we live in a patriarchal society, but some women seem to do its bidding.

            4. LaDeeDa*

              This is why it is so important for women to have mentors and be mentors and to have women in leadership positions. I am sure she is probably young and inexperienced, so if she had a mentor, or even a woman in leadership telling her these things- it will help her, the other women in the company, and the men.

            5. Gaia*

              Uh no. Women are fully capable of setting women back because we are also fully capable of understanding the implications of our actions and words and regulating them in a way that is most effective.

              What you’re suggesting is we aren’t capable of independent thought. That’s kinda jacked up.

              2. LaDeeDa*

                I’ll have to remember on Friday’s open thread to post about the multiple times I was pressured into going to the strip club with the leaders from my first real job. I was 21, in grad school, and didn’t know how to navigate that situation and didn’t fully understand how being the “cool girl” and “not like other girls in the office” was detrimental to me and to other women.

                1. PlainJane*

                  I never was in the strip club situation but absolutely played along with old boy behavior early in my career. I didn’t know any better and felt it was better for me to go along to get along. I cringe in retrospect, but I wasn’t to blame for being put in that situation when I was too inexperienced and low in the hierarchy to be able to oppose it.

                2. Shan*

                  I wound up being a “Barker’s Beauty” in a skit for a charity event when I first entered my current industry, and while at the time I felt okay about it, ten years later I seriously cringe. I’m in an industry that still has some serious Mad Men elements to it, and hoo boy is it apparent sometimes.

            6. Not So NewReader*

              Respectfully, disagreeing. I have watched over and over again women deferring to men in the workplace and encouraging other women to do the same. This has been going on all the decades I have worked.

              It would be interesting for Alison to do a column on how many different ways we women hold each other back and/or perpetuate problems. Some of the ways are subtle, some of the ways are complex issues, there are many different ways.

        1. Spencer Hastings*

          Well, it sort of is. They’re peers in their actual workplace, so putting herself in a subservient role for that day is not great.

          2. Ethyl*

            Sorry, I did misspeak there, you’re right. I meant it’s not the job, or that it exists, or that people do it and get paid for it. The actual job does exist and I still wouldn’t call those folks “cart girls.” Everyone else covered the rest.

      6. Observer*

        Maybe not shaming. But I don’t care how much she enjoys riding around in the cart and drinking beer. That’s her thing and that’s fine.

        But using terminology like “girl” in the workplace? Suggesting a service role vs all of the others who are enjoying the activity? Suggesting this for OTHER women?! All of this is a hard no.

        1. Pibble*

          Where does it say she suggested it for other women? The letter says she suggested being a cart girl (singular), not that she suggested the women be cart girls. Could she have meant all the women? Maybe, but it’s definitely not clear from the letter, so maybe we shouldn’t be screaming at someone who’s not here for something she may or may not have said.

          1. Observer*

            In reading later comments, it looks like she didn’t suggest it for others. The OP just apparently took it as a general suggestion. At least he had the sense to realize that it might not go over too well. I don’t think he realized just how bad of an idea it really is, though. And he CLEARLY didn’t see how poorly it reflects on the whole workplace.

    3. LadyofLasers*

      And it could be a way she’s trying to be one of the guys. The pressure is real to be a cool girl and not make waves. I could see it as someone trying to make the best of a non-ideal situation in a way that she could bond with her coworkers. It’s still icky, but I actually see it as understandable

      2. Mr. Shark*

        Or she could be perfectly willing to do so, and not have a problem calling herself cart girl. She should be able to make up her own mind about it and do what she wants to do.

    4. Gaia*

      My eye legit twitched at that. I would slap the beer out of the hand of anyone (especially a woman – come on, GIRL!) that suggested we be cart girls for the men-folk.

      1. goducks*

        no kidding! Cart GIRL. Not a fully respectable woman, a girl. Nobody would ever suggest a man wait on the golfing men and call himself a cart boy.

        1. Jennifer*

          Why don’t we take an AAM, all-ladies work trip to a beach resort, lay out by the pool and make the men our cabana boys? Sounds fun.

        3. Ariaflame*

          Well, alas not that many decades ago they might have, if the man in question was not white.

    6. EPLawyer*

      My Lions Club has an annual golf tournament of which I am actually co-chair. I do not golf. However, I run the morning registration and am in charge of the luncheon activities. My reward for doing this? I get driven around in a cart just saying hi to everyone and making sure things are running smoothly. I don’t hand out beers because the club has a beer cart (well not officially hand out, my driver has an endless cooler). It’s a fun day, I get to talk to everyone but not put much effort into things during the down time.

      The phrase is more than a little off. But its not wrong to want to be the Beer Hander Outer.

      However, the bigger picture — this does need to change. It’s not an inclusive outing anymore and the women are losing out on important face time.

  9. Mystery Bookworm*

    It’s also worth noting that while golf has historically been a “business fun” activity, there are plenty of people from varying cultures and classes who won’t have grown up with it and won’t particularly enjoy it, so you’re not just being more inclusive of the women on your team, but possibly others as well.

    It might help to get really crystal clear on what your goals are for the trips: a reward? team building? Maybe in addition to surveying people on what they’d like, you can survey people on how they feel the trip has benefited them in the past.

    My former company did that, which uncovered that while the organizing team was thinking of certain actitives as ‘rewards’ they were really being percieved and used as ‘team building and networking’. This sort of insight can help you get a sense of what’s really a good evolution for the future.

    1. AMT*

      That’s a good point. Gender aside, it’s a very class-specific sport. Making it the only available activity basically says, “If you’re not from this particular background, you’re not going to get the same networking opportunities.”

      1. goducks*

        It’s not just classist, and gendered, it’s also ableist. It excludes people who are unable to play due to a disability, and may force someone to disclose a heretofore private condition to get out of the totally mandatory voluntary activity.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          And has an ugly racist history in the U.S. (which continues today). When a program has that many embedded problems around exclusion, it seems like a bad idea to keep it going as the only or primary “reward” program.

        2. Op*

          Serious question. If everyone involved is able, do we need to worry about being ableist? Golf is probably more inclusive than any other sport activity, I know several handicapped (pun intended) players that have modified swings and score very well.

          We also have a lot of local programs that work to reduce the classist and gendered golf stereotype. With great success. It doesn’t have to be an expensive sport, despite the common claim.

          1. Alexander Graham Yell*

            Yes, because it can impact future employees.

            And just because you have a lot of local programs that work on that doesn’t mean it’s actually changed – I saw this play out at my old company in a way that completely excluded women and it was a symptom of a larger problem, which was that management could only see things from their own perspective and were not willing to actively listen to and understand any other point of view. This sounds exactly the same. You are rushing to solve the problem “How can we keep this trip?” instead of “How can we find a way to recognize our high performers with something everybody will enjoy?”

            1. AMT*

              Right, and the fact that these local programs exist just reinforces the idea that it’s an exclusive sport!

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Yes—you need to still worry about being ableist. When you’re a manager, you have to be concerned about how your business choices affect access on the basis of identity, even if you don’t think one of your employees reflects a particular identity (especially because disabilities can be invisible). Just because several differently-abled golfers enjoy the game doesn’t mean everyone with different abilities can participate. Your business choices not only affect promotion and advancement, but they affect who applies to work at your company. So you can’t assume an event is ok just because you believe “everyone involved is able.”

            What would you do when you finally hire someone who cannot modify their swing or participate? How would it make you feel if you were in that person’s shoes? Now how would you feel if you knew this were a quasi-mandatory event where you would be cut off from networking and professional opportunity because you can’t play?

            Golf really isn’t an inclusive activity, and I disagree that it’s “more inclusive than any other sport activity.” You’re effectively choosing activities that are known to have significant histories of exclusion on the basis of gender, race, ability and SES, and you have datapoints indicating that an entire gender in your office would not be able to participate in golf outings. Both of those things make this unethical, and additionally, they’re unlawful under Title VII.

            In the U.S., golf has a really exclusive history, and no amount of local programming has corrected those inequalities. Just look at all of the golf/country clubs that are still men-only, and in many cases, white-only. Or look at the badass black women golfers who were wrongfully ejected from play despite being club members. Folks may be working towards equalizing access, but it’s important to recognize that golf is still exclusionary, that it’s not the responsibility of excluded communities to “equalize” golf by learning how to play it, and that it’s still perceived as an activity of exclusion and exclusivity.

          3. Tau*

            In addition to what Alexander Graham Yell said, I would be very, very careful about assuming that everyone involved is able. There are plenty of invisible disabilities, and many people don’t disclose at work.

            1. Kj*

              Thank you! My son is not going to be able to play ball sports, as he has albinism. Something like golf will always be off the table due to vision, but it is hard to spot from the outside if you don’t know what albinism looks like. So many disabilities are invisible.

            2. Southern Yankee*

              This! A very common invisible health issue is back problems. I imagine anyone with a back problem would be very uninterested in golf, modified swing or not. This issue goes beyond golf and gender and ableism. There is an entire set of built in assumptions the company is making about how employees see this event. It’s entirely possible that some people really have always enjoyed it they way you think. It is also likely they are only the most vocal and that another big group only tolerated it for career points and would love another alternative.

            3. Librarian of SHIELD*

              It’s not a disability, but I’m allergic to grass. Spending a weekend at a golf course would make me really sick. And if OP were my boss, he wouldn’t really have any reason to know that about me.

            4. PlainJane*

              This. I don’t consider myself disabled, but I’m righthanded and have a bum right shoulder and elbow. No one would know unless I told them, but a golf swing would leave me in pain for days. And I really don’t want to be the middle-aged person who has to whine about my aching joints at work, because that *will* color how some people see me.

          4. Overseer Vimes of the Look*

            Yes, you need to worry about being ableist. It’s not always about who happens to working at your company now; it’s frequently about who would be welcomed–and feel welcomed–to work at your company in the future. Your company culture is part and parcel of your recruiting, and right now, this particular element of your culture is recruiting white, middle/upper class, able men. That’s a problem all around.

            1. PlainJane*

              Or the people who work at your company now who may develop physical limitations in the future.

          5. a girl has no name*

            I can’t speak to your second paragraph, but here are some points about ableism:
            -You won’t always know when someone is disabled.
            -Assuming everyone is able puts the onus on disabled employees to out themselves by sharing private medical information, which they may not want to do.
            -If they choose not to share their medical information, disabled individuals may be embarrassed about appearing to be weak, uncoordinated, antisocial, not a team player, etc.
            -Some VIPs may, in fact, make those assumptions and this could affect the individual’s work status.
            -Many conditions that would fit this bill are more likely to be experienced by women, including multiple sclerosis, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc.
            -And of course pregnancy, while not a disability, is something an employee might not want to disclose that could prevent their participation.

          6. dealing with dragons*

            Do you know if everyone is able? I have a labrum year which you can’t see from the outside, and for the most part I can do normal activities. I can’t, however, golf, play baseball, or play tennis.

            And maybe don’t make handicap puns

          7. fposte*

            Two things, OP:

            1) you don’t know who’s able for golfing and who isn’t. It’s not a simple binary you can judge from the workplace, and it’s not a constant status. The men who haven’t participated may be giving other reasons to avoid disclosing disability.

            2) this kind of work activity isn’t just about current employees–it’s about prospective employees (and also about clients, and prospective clients). “Our company culture is centered on doing X activity all together on a weekend trip” is a big statement to make; it will encourage people to self-select out. And sometimes that’s what a business wants–Southwest doesn’t want wallflowers–but it’s always worth considering when that self-selection is about more than just personality.

            And a third thing for no extra charge: I think you’re still trying to put the same old pieces together here but make them okay. And I don’t know that you have to move past that today, but I don’t think that’s really doable, and I hope you’ll consider the *opportunities* for your business in letting go something dated, restrictive, and exclusionary.

            1. OP*

              It will take time, but I am here because I know it is right.
              Thank you for your comments.

          8. EventPlannerGal*

            OP, I think your specific question has been answered very well already, but I just want to say one thing: from all your comments here, you sound really invested in both this trip and golf as an activity. I think it would help if you tried to take a step back.

            Like, you’re talking defensively here about how golf is really inclusive really despite the common view!! To which I would say, I have spent years hearing about my local, world-famous golf course, not because of their golf, but because of their repeated votes against admitting women. There’s another one that only allowed women to enter the club through the back door. I actually did have golfing lessons at school, but that’s what I associate with golf and I have never had any interest in continuing it given that that is the reality of how the sport is conducted in many places. So I think it would help if you perhaps tried to detach yourself from your own, obviously very positive associations with the sport, and tried to a) remember that that is not how other people might experience it and b) think of this as a business activity rather than something you’re personally invested in.

          9. professor*

            You’re so sure you have no one with disabilities? I have Crohn’s disease and chronic fatigue…you can’t see it, I could even fake my way through a day of golf….but I would pay for it the next few days. And, no, I don’t want to tell my boss about it…

          10. Mr. Shark*

            I’m not sure how many people here have actually played golf, but it’s far more inclusive than people think. You can have short courses in which nearly anyone can play. I understand there are definitely physical limitations that would preclude some people from playing, but I don’t think there are outings that everyone can do.
            I don’t see why we have to make everything all-inclusive if many people enjoy certain events. There are plenty of events at oldjob and currentjob that I don’t participate in, for a variety of reasons, but I don’t see the need to complain simply because it isn’t my cup of tea.

            1. Groove Bat*

              The ones who are really great golfers will resent the short courses and blame the newcomers for making it “less fun and challenging.”

          11. Starbuck*

            It would be the same problem you’re having now – needing to change the activity once someone who is *different* arrives, because you’re not already an inclusive workplace and have to do catch-up. It’s an extremely awkward position to be put in if you’re the new disabled employee. The same awkward position you’ve put these women in. Don’t do that to them.

          12. Not So NewReader*

            Do you have a wheelchair ramp going into your building? You don’t need it though because everyone can walk well?

            What about your clients who can’t play golf? I am your client. I should not have to explain my health setting or my concerns about golf to get you to talk with me. Additionally since you play golf with Harry, Joe and Sam, you should do an activity with me. I like quilting. So you and I are going to go to a quilting bee to talk biz. It will be so much fun. Oh, you don’t know how to quilt? I will get you lessons. Oh, you don’t like quilting? Well you have to do it anyway because everyone else does it for me. If you don’t quilt then you won’t get my business, yeah, my 6 digits worth of business. Jane will quilt with me. I will give her my business.

          13. Groove Bat*

            You’re disregarding the time and sacrifice it takes to practice and get proficient. I mentioned this above. It’s not just the cost of equipment and greens fees and memberships and lessons. Who’s looking after the kids on Sunday afternoon while you’re out practicing your swing? If you’re a man with a stay at home wife, you assume you’ve got that covered. If you’re a single parent? Not so much.

          14. Quandong*

            OP you sound a lot like a very privileged, able-bodied white man I know through my work.

            Please don’t make this handicapped joke again, seriously. Do not assume your audience is able bodied. Do not assume your audience will find your joke amusing.

            If you haven’t come across this before, consider:
            impact > intent

      2. Mimi Me*

        It’s similar to skiing. My mother’s company once offered a company ski outing and it was made up of all the execs and a few of the junior execs who had grown up with the opportunity to ski.

      3. Gdub*

        I agree — golf is a very class-specific sport. It’s not only expensive, it’s difficult to master and it’s extremely mannered. Golf has lots of rules about behaviour that are in addition to the rules of the game. Woe betide you if you break them.

    2. Sara without an H*

      Agree. It sounds as though the golf weekend has been in place for a while — why not poll the sales staff? If management thinks it’s a reward, and the staff see it as a semi-mandatory team-building event, you have a bad case of mismatched expectations.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        I worry that polling the staff could result in the current staff saying “Yeah, we love it!” which would reinforce to the OP it’s the new women on the team that are the problem. Even if everybody currently loves it, the trip itself is problematic regardless of their feelings on it because it is exclusionary.

    3. Per My Last Telegram*

      Yes! There’s a lot of issues here that circle around socioeconomics as well. Not a single man in my family golfs. My cousin married a huge golfer and I don’t think he understands why none of us like it. It’s so expensive to have as a hobby (and my personal opinion it seems just as fun as mini golf but pricier.)

      I do think a lot of affluent white guys don’t understand that not everyone enjoys golf, even other guys.

      This company needs to find a more inclusive activity other than golf.

  10. theletter*

    Why not offer a lesson through the golf course for anyone who wants to learn? The point of this weekend is to help coworkers build relationships with each other, and golf is a delightfully mild activity. I despise most organized sports but if I can get a day off work to play golf, I’ll go play golf.

    1. Jennifer M*

      It’s separate activities – the newbies are off having their lessons and they aren’t getting face time with the managers and owners who are playing a round of golf.

    2. AngryAngryAlice*

      Besides being separate activities, I hate golf and wouldn’t want a lesson in this context (or ever). A lot of people feel the same way.

    3. Turquoisecow*

      I don’t want to play golf. I’m not interested in learning. It’s not a requirement for the job. Why should I be forced to learn to participate in something I don’t want to play?

    4. Op*

      I like the idea of providing lessions prior to the trip for those that are interested in learning. will be looking into that as an option.

      1. anonymous 5*

        No, really don’t. It isn’t actually a viable option, for reasons already well-addressed above. You need to change your company’s approach on a fundamental level and ultimately remove the golf part entirely.

      3. Usually Lurks, Sometimes Comments*

        Seriously, how many people have told you this is a bad idea (including Alison) and yet you still think this is viable?

        Let me spell it out for you: You can’t make someone take lessons to earn a reward they’ve already won. Unless you will make all the non-golfers (aka mostly men) take lessons on something else as a prerequisite for this trip, it’s not equitable.

        You can offer golf lessons, especially if they will be helpful. You cannot offer lessons in lieu of changing problematic policies. You seem to be refusing to see the issue here.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          THIS all day, especially

          You can’t make someone take lessons to earn a reward they’ve already won.

          How messed up of a “rewards” system is that?!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yes, the lessons would read to me as mandatory, no matter how it was presented. Many companies use that double speak and the employee is left to guess what is meant. So the default guess is to go to worst case scenario. And right, it’s punishment.

            And there is no way I would ever see golf lessons as a reward. There is only ONE reward and that is cash in my pocket. I feel that business should totally understand this because they have the same goal.

    5. FilmTag*

      I see it not as a day off work, but a requirement to give up two personal days (Saturday and Sunday) to work. I suspect a number of the people going now see it the same way. It’s an obligation to have face time with the bosses, not a reward.

  11. fposte*

    I’m wincing a little at “Many of our team have young children and the weekend getaway is well received and appreciated,” especially given the gendered history–that’s giving them a present that you’re asking their spouses to foot the bill for.

    1. CR*

      I’m wincing a LOT at that. So their reward is a weekend away from the family while the women stay at home. No thanks.

      1. Ethyl*

        Seriously. This whole thing is, honestly, a nightmare top to bottom. LW, this NEEDS to change. I hope you can approach the answer and the comments with an open mind and see how horribly problematic this whole thing is.

      2. Dragoning*

        For half a moment, I thought “oh, they’re inviting the families!” and then no.

        1. Manon*

          Wow I didn’t even realize that. I totally assumed that a ‘getaway weekend’ would include families.

          If the expectation is that women are the ones who stay home and take care of kids, that’s going to be a huge problem for women employees with kids.

        2. Spencer Hastings*

          That was my first read as well! Which is uncomfortable in another way, but…yeah.

        3. Sal*

          Oh noooooo, they’re not inviting the families????

          Major facepalm. My husband has done a sleepaway work trip for a few days and it is 100% an imposition that I begrudge his workplace. I had to rearrange childcare for our 2 yo daughter, book a dog-walker (I was 7 months pregnant), and have my dad come over to take out our trash (see above re 7 months pregnant). His trip was not a perk for our family (or for him, given the logistical difficulty it presented in the prep)–it was an added, unwelcome job duty. At best, for him (he went camping), it was a trade-off. For me (and our daughter), it was an imposition.

          1. CMart*

            Yes. I know it’s a trope for men to be like “thank God I have a chance to get away from the family!” and that there are a lot of dudes who truly would feel no remorse about burdening their coparent with a long weekend of solo parenting (or are the kind of dude who doesn’t do much parenting in general so what’s the difference if he’s gone for work?), but it’s a bad trope to propagate.

            It’s okay for a mother or father to take a long weekend away and “impose” on the other, but it should be a mutually agreed upon rejuvenation not an unnecessary work event. If I’m going to use up our good will and favors, or very limited disposable income, to find backup childcare for a trip I want to use it up on a vacation with friends or family. Not a golf outing with colleagues.

            I’m honestly really jittery with a lot of pent up feelings from that sentence about it being looked forward to as an escape from family life. Ugh.

    2. Mystery Bookworm*

      I’m also curious how they know that the getaway is appreciated.

      The employee/employer dynamic is inherently imbalanced, so people expressing gratitude, or making offhand comments about how it’s nice to get away from the kids may be doing so more out of politeness than out of really feeling thrilled to get a weekend with their bosses.

      In order to really take the pulse of how people feel about this sort of thing, I think employers have to be more diligent and proactive in soliciting feedback – they can’t just rely on ‘feeling it out’.

      Personally, I’m skeptical that all the team members truly would rather a golf weekened over bonuses, but I could very well be wrong.

      2. fposte*

        That’s a really good point about people feeling the need to express gratitude they may not feel. I think I’ve been unfairly judging the male participants on this, when some of them–heck, all of them–may not be that unhappy to see a different reward emerge.

        1. Kyrielle*

          If it were my husband, he would view it as a mandatory thing to go to and network, and feel that he damaged his career if he didn’t go. And he would thank them for it. And then at home later we would both grouse together and he would apologize, because yeah, I would be very UNappreciative and I know he would understand that.

          And my husband enjoys golfing!

          1. Sal*

            Yes to all this. I would be huffing around the house with my arms crossed kvetching about “mandatory weekends away should be paid overtime and disclosed before you take the job, not sprung upon people as a purported ‘reward.'”

          2. 2 Cents*

            Add me to the list of this is exactly what we’d do too. Hubby would feel the need to go, outwardly express thanks while inwardly being like “no thanks.”

          3. Not So NewReader*

            Yes to all this. My husband and I used to complain about the company Christmas party the same way. We’d go. Thank the boss, tell the boss it was lovely then go home and collapse in exhaustion. We hated the company Christmas party. It was unpaid WORK. Worse yet, I wasn’t even on their payroll.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Especially if it’s a monetary reward from the sales budget since the company as a whole excludes them.

      3. AMT*

        I wonder what would happen if they they did an anonymous survey. Maybe they’d get some strong comments about taking away their relaxing weekend to make them hang out with coworkers and/or or forcing them to hire childcare.

        I give a huge side-eye to work events held outside of work hours. Has anyone in the history of work enjoyed those?

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Hell, at a large company, there’s no such thing as anonymous. I just saw the SVP at my last company try to sniff out who gave him negative feedback on his allegedly “Anonymous” management evaluation. He even has helpers trying to trace where the comment came from, smh.

      4. CJ*

        This is a great point. I would absolutely say “this is a nice break from taking care of my kids!” because it WOULD be a nice break to be a little pampered and do things at an adult pace. That said, I would always choose a weekend with my kids over a weekend with my coworkers. Politely describing something as a “nice break” isn’t the same as “this is how I would choose to spend my reward/bonus time/money”.

    3. Tau*

      Agreed, this really jumped out at me. I would love to assume this sentence means your company offers excellent free childcare for the duration of this trip, but somehow I suspect I’m going to be disappointed on that front.

      Which, by the way, might be another hurdle in the way of women participating. Do any of them have young children?

    4. Lirael*

      Yes, thank you! That really bothered me. I’d be *pissed* if instead of my husband getting a bonus, he was expected to attend a work trip all weekend, leaving me home alone with our 4 year old. I have chosen not to be a stay at home parent in part because I think taking care of a kid by myself is way more draining and difficult than going to work. I’d suck it up since it’s just once a year, but it would not endear that company to me.

      1. merp*

        Something I doubt has been much considered by this company, so thanks for wording it this way.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I would routinely ask my husband when he was going to start the job search. Seriously. My husband was gone from home 12 or more hours a day. He definitely did not need a “fun” get away. To bosses every where, tell your overachievers to GO HOME.

    6. LaDeeDa*

      This entire letter had me cringing. I appreciate that the person has recognized there is a need to change, I do, I really appreciate that. But the whole is so cringe-worthy from leaving the kids and the wife behind for the men to go drinking to sending the women shopping… I am hoping the person can grow and understand why all of those things are problematic.

      1. teclatrans*

        Yes, exactly. The assumption that one of the most valuable aspects of this reward is the chance to get away from young kids at home really grated on me because it’s outdated, sexist, and quite possibly *incorrect* to begin with.

      2. Starbuck*

        I think they’ve recognized that they need to include women, but honestly with all the talk about lessons, it seems more like OP is hoping the women will somehow change themselves or their attitudes so they can just fit in, without the men or OP having to ACTUALLY change anything…. which is the whole dang problem! Women have fought hard for rights, and yet men have changed very little.

    8. SKA*

      Yeah, and in my experience, people with small children are far less able to do anything on a weekend, let alone overnight trips. I’d wonder if it’s not so much a “welcomed getaway” as a “logistical nightmare where the spouse needs to figure out how to get Ava to her friend’s birthday party while also picking up Jack from tee-ball and also picking up the cheese plate they signed up to bring to the PTA meeting on Monday”.

    9. Trout 'Waver*

      I find it interesting that I assumed the OP meant that the salesmen were taking their wives and families, and the kids enjoyed hanging out at the golf resort. Because that was my experience with such things growing up. Also my current company has an incentive where they send salespeople along with their families to a resort as an incentive for hitting certain milestones.

      I never even considered that the salesmen would go along and strand their spouses with their kids. If that’s what OP means, ick.

      2. Turquoisecow*

        I assume the spouses and kids aren’t on the course, so even if it’s a getaway for them also, the wives are still doing the bulk of the childcare.

            1. Ophelia*

              Yeah, it’s SO MUCH HARDER to take care of little kids at a place that isn’t home, and a golf resort geared towards adults…I’m just thinking about trying to manage the whirlwind.

      3. Autumnheart*

        Yeah, I was assuming that the spouses and kids also got to go! It never occurred to me that it was a “Get out of family responsibilities free” card.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I read it the way you did (family outing), but now that I’m reading it through the lens fposte provided, I’m even more squicked. It’s basically an outing dedicated to excluding women and taking advantage of unpaid spousal/life-partner labor (which I suspect is also heavily gendered female, just because cishet marriages are more numerous). The managers’ framework has to change for them to understand why this is an approach that has the practical effect of excluding or exploiting women.

      6. Jules the 3rd*

        I thought that too, but then they mentioned getting the three women ‘a different house’ and that seemed to me to imply it didn’t include families. If it included families you would not need to split by gender.

    11. Guacamole Bob*

      Oh, god, I somehow read that the first time as they were all bringing their families to the beach town for the weekend and it was a free family vacation (where the men still go off and golf and leave their wives to watch the kids away from home alone, which is hard as hell depending on the age of the kids). But you’re right, this makes it so. much. worse.

      1. Ethyl*

        I suspect the families don’t go because LW referred to getting the women their own cabin, so it sounds like the dudes all bunk together sans families. This whole thing……woof.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          I read it as sales persons only sans family, mostly because all my friends have had corporate over weekend outings without family.

          My one friend is going to Vegas this weekend as “team building event”. Doesn’t drink, gamble or golf and is leaving her husband a toddler kid at home.

    12. Clisby*

      Maybe I misread that – I thought it meant the families came along on the trip so they got to enjoy it also. If not, wth?

      1. President Porpoise*

        And maybe the trip could evolve in that direction – instead of golf, the company hosts a beach weekend for the sales team and their families.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          We have this at our company and it’s well received. Resort for a weekday, overnight stay and tickets to the water park. Everyone comes and we all meet up for a catered cookout, then we’re on our own.

    13. Clever Name*

      YES! I cringed so hard at that! Even in 2019, in heterosexual relationships, women perform the lion’s share of child-rearing activities, especially with young children, so yeah, dad leaving for a weekend isn’t super impactful on the family. But what if the women are nursing mothers? When one is nursing a baby, it’s extraordinarily difficult to leave your baby for multiple days at a time. And what about single parents (men or women)? Are they expected to find a weekend’s worth of childcare (including overnights!) for children at their cost, or will they have to opt out?

      1. Working Mom Having It All*

        Also, as a woman who is the family breadwinner while my male partner stays at home… call me crazy but the weekends are my time to see my kid and give my husband a break. I’m sure that if the genders were reversed (and if my husband and I didn’t have an egalitarian relationship where we both assume childcare and domestic tasks), a man would probably get away with not doing that. But still… like… you should want to see your kids. Right?

    14. Kj*

      Yep. I work one weekend day. If my husband was offered a ‘benefit’ like this it would be a real hardship on us.

    15. OP*

      That comment applies to the men and women of the team. That was actually the first thing I heard from one of the women, who has a young child.

      Everyone needs time away.

      1. Southern Yankee*

        It may be true that everyone needs time away, but it’s really not an employer’s place to provide it. It especially isn’t an employer’s place to provide it at a time a place of their own choosing for a seen as mandatory work event when it puts the burden on the employee to figure out the logistics on your schedule. Yes, parents need “me time”, but how in the heck is this work event providing that? You’ve replaced parental responsibility with work responsibility in a socially awkward situation fraught with pitfalls. Sorry, that doesn’t fulfill my need for “me time”.

      2. bloody mary*

        “Time away”? That’s what vacation is for, not work trips. How much annual leave do you give your employees, and are they actually encouraged to use it?

        On the flip side, during this trip are you paying for childcare? What about women who are pregnant, recovering from a recent birth, or any employees with physical disabilities that mean they cannot spend a day outside on their feet playing golf? What support are you providing for women who are still breastfeeding? And the answer to any of these questions cannot be “well, none of our employees currently have this problem” because a) the only way to ensure that that continues to be true is to use discriminatory hiring/firing practices, b) it should not be the burden of someone who cannot participate to come up with solutions to a problem they did not create, and c) if you really want a more inclusive workplace you HAVE to consider the types of problems people who are not like you might have (this is how you got yourself into this situation in the first place!)

      3. emmelemm*

        Just because one person expressed something positive about this doesn’t mean it isn’t a burden for others on the team. The ones for whom it might be a burden just aren’t expressing that so they “don’t make waves.”

      4. Kj*

        Everyone needs time away, sure. But is this an actual relaxing time? It is a time to talk to the boss, bond with co-workers and that may or may not be relaxing. Also, please assume the spouse of your workers might have a job and life as well and be negatively impacted by her or his spouse having to go away for a weekend if kids are involved. I have a7 month old and would be angry if my husband had to go away for the weekend to socialize for work. And my husband would express appropriate appreciation to the boss’s face, but would grumble in private to me.

      5. CMart*

        I know you’re trying to be kind and fair to your sales force, but please please do not get into the business of thinking “work trip” (yes, even a really fun one with all expenses paid) is “getting away” or that a company has any business whatsoever to have any opinion or say over what/when/how someone can can perform the self-care of having “time away”, whatever that means for them.

        Would I enjoy an all expense paid trip to a resort of sorts with golf, restaurants, drinking etc…? Yes, even with my colleagues.

        Would it be an enormous imposition on my family? Also yes. We’d have to spend several hundred dollars on backup childcare and my husband who is used to having help around the house on the weekends would be taking on the massive work of wrangling a toddler and an infant. He might be happy to do this if it was truly a getaway, but he would be much happier if I was getting to “get away” with my sister or best friend. Or… you know, together.

        Would I tell you “oh, it’ll be nice to get away”? Also yes. Because it would be a little bit true, and it’s also what you’re supposed to say when someone asks about leaving your family behind.

        1. OP*

          I act like I know what the other employees think about the trip, because I am very confident I do.

          The rest of the group are long term employees, close friends, and comfortable within the company and their positions. They are not posturing to impress people with these comments. THAT is part of why I came here… the pressure to continue the trip from the “boys” but the need to treat the new employees right.

          I agree, however, that usually these kind of employer trips are a bust. This almost certainly would be going forward.

          1. Groove Bat*

            The “boys” aren’t going to want anything to change at all. Ever, And anything you do to try to be inclusive for the new employees will be met with resentment from the old timers.

            I really like the suggestion above of a fancy awards dinner at which cash bonuses are doled out. If the “boys” want to spend their cash bonuses on a golf outing for themselves, on their own time, they are free to do so. But management should not participate in that private activity.

          2. Penny Parker*

            Wow. You really do not want to listen to this feedback, or at least it appears that way. It was clearly explained how this is problematic for a workplace, not just for now but also for future planning. You have dug your heels in and reject wise advise.

      6. Bulbasaur*

        Yes they do, but it is expensive, can be logistically difficult to organize (especially if you don’t have e.g. grandparents nearby that the kids can stay with) and takes second priority to holidays with the whole family. You need to plan it well in advance, sometimes call in favors, and generally arrange your little corner of universe into a sufficiently favorable pattern for it to even be possible. And if you are anything like me you probably have a long backlog of activities that you would love to do (either alone or as a couple) if you were temporarily kid-free but can’t, because it’s something that happens only rarely and with a lot of effort. Would I move a work golfing trip, even a free one, to the top of that list and displace all the others? Hell no. (I am a male, but I have a greater share of the parenting responsibility than it sounds like these people do).

        The idea that you can plan a multi-day, child free work event for employees with families of small children, and expect 100% participation or anything close to it, makes no sense unless you assume 1950s style workplace norms where everyone has a stay-at-home spouse who is dedicated to covering all the household and family responsibilities, such that the other partner is free to head off for a weekend event like it’s no big deal any time they see fit. (The degree of gender bias in this scenario is left as an exercise for the reader).

        If you want it to be family friendly then plan something that whole families can enjoy. Presumably these men enjoy spending time with their families as well as having boozy weekends of golf with the guys. Why not base your work events around the former, and let people do the latter on their own time?

        1. Bulbasaur*

          You might also like to think about how this would work if any of your sales team were single parents with school-aged kids (which is presumably a situation that could arise if your hiring process is non-discriminatory).

          Technically if you are a parent you do not ‘need’ time away. It is (very) nice to have and the job becomes more difficult if it’s not an option for whatever reason, but impossible? If you absolutely couldn’t do it, would you give your kids up to foster care or CPS? There are plenty of people out there dealing with suboptimal situations by triaging their options and drawing an ever-finer line between ‘must haves’ and ‘nice to haves’ while still trying to be the best parents/partners/employees/etc. that they can be. Time away is one of the things that can (regrettably) end up in the discard pile in those situations. Are any of your employees in that kind of situation? Can you be sure they aren’t? Would they tell you?

      7. Lucille2*

        Except that not all parents will see it that way. Personally, I don’t want more time away from my children than I am already getting by working full time. It also puts all the effort on my spouse to keep things running in my absence without any help. Time away is nice, but as a parent of young children, it always comes at the expense of the other parent.

    17. Hummus*

      Yeah, I read that and was like, how on Earth is it appreciated to have to arrange childcare for young children for a whole weekend?? Ohhhh, in this world, men get to drop childcare duties whenever they want. And also in this world, men apparently don’t like their children…

    19. Incantanto*

      Wait, this is on a weekend? Christ, If my company wants me to travel on a weekend I’d better get time off in lieu.

  12. Savannnah*

    The good news here is that this isn’t a tricky problem at all. The answer, which Allison gave, is your *only* step forward. So do right by all of your employees ethically and legally. The complaints will come but that doesn’t mean your decision wasn’t wrong.

    It is an open joke at my husbands company that if they ever hired a woman into their sales or management team, they would have to totally revamp their entire benefits and sales strategy. Luckily (ha) for them, it’s yet to happen.

    2. fposte*

      That’s a sort of fascinating tone-deafness, right? “Everything here is female-unfriendly, and what a weird coincidence these teams have never hired women.”

      1. boo bot*

        Oh, piffle, I’m sure that attitude never comes across to the women they definitely interview frequently for sales jobs!

        “Do you have any questions?”
        “Can I ask about your benefits and sales strategy?”
        “Well, I’m not sure how to answer that. You’re a woman, so we’d pretty much have to revamp all of that stuff if we hired you.”
        “…”

    3. AngryAngryAlice*

      There aren’t any women in management at your husband’s company…??? That is extremely Not Good(TM) and sounds like a terrible place to work.

      1. Savannnah*

        If you are shocked by that you are giving 2019 more credit that it deserves. As for the company, it has its pros and cons but if there were more (any) women, it for sure would be much better.

        1. BonnieVoyage*

          “If you are shocked by that you are giving 2019 more credit that it deserves.”

          MTE. In my 100+ person company, there are three women who are not admins. This stuff is still happening and it’s very real.

        2. bloody mary*

          This. My workplace is about 50% male/50%female, but all of the management is male and all of the admins are female.

        3. DerJungerLudendorff*

          Absolutely.
          This problem has existed for thousands of years (if not longer), and is deeply ingrained in our entire society.
          It will take centuries to fix this completely, if we ever manage so at all, and we’re not even close yet.

        4. JustaTech*

          I gave my husband a hard time about his startup not having any women employees, and then not having any women in the tech team (or the sales team). He fully acknowledged that they needed women on the tech team, and the bigger the team was before they hired the first woman the harder it would be to find a woman candidate willing to be the first. But there was a lot of “well they aren’t applying” “I don’t know where to find any”, which was silly since between us we knew at least a half-dozen women in tech who could point him at likely candidates.

            1. CMart*

              If I recall, some people have binders full of women!

              God do I miss those political times.

          2. Dan T*

            The lack of women applicants is a very real problem in tech. The company I work for has had increasing diversity on our engineering team as a top priority for years but it is very hard. We have great racial diversity, great LGBT diversity, but we struggle enormously with gender.

            We have 2 woman out of about 30 engineers. They were both hired recently, so for 4 years we had no female engineers (although for a lot of that time we had far fewer engineers). That sounds terrible until you realize that out of nearly 800 interviews, only 30 have been with women. Before you ask, we did the following to try to correct the imbalance:
            – Sent a rep to at least one women in tech event per month (yes unfortunately it’s usually a guy who has to go…). For a while we were attending almost as many of these as technical conferences.
            – Advertised in major women in tech newsletters.
            – Had every engineer specifically focus on women in their network when doing recruiting. Btw what prompted me to write this was your point about they could have reached out to the female engineers they knew. Just because you tell a female engineer that you know that you’re hiring doesn’t mean that she’s interested or that she knows another woman who’s interested!
            – Doubled the bonus for referrals of female engineering candidates that lead to hires (to $20,000!!!).
            – Did anti-bias training for hiring.

            None of this worked for years. Finally we hired two women engineers in the last few months and they both are doing super well.

            Just because a company has a radical gender imbalance does not mean they aren’t doing their best. Sorry to go on such a rant – I just hear this all the time when people talk about tech. Something along the lines of “if they have that kind of an imbalance they obviously don’t care at all.” And it really isn’t true. Like maybe we aren’t doing things right but we are doing our best and have been for a long time, and yet we had an awful imbalance…

            1. Dan T*

              Sorry in case my comment was unclear. When I said out of 800 interviews, 30 were with women, I meant out of 800 APPLICANTS, 30 were with women. Those are just the stats from the last year, but I think the ratio holds up in prior years.

              1. blackcat*

                This is also a self-perpetuating problem. I interviewed for a tenure track position in a department of ~30 TT faculty. Only 1 was a woman.
                Even if it had been offered to me, I wouldn’t have taken it. The were a variety of red flags, but the reddest flag of all was that they had so few women.

            2. Engineer Girl*

              You know what you’re missing? Anti bias training for assessing work.
              Women consistently are assumed to be incompetent until proven otherwise. Their work receives a lower grade.
              Until you fix that it doesn’t matter what your hiring practices are.

              Projects that are truly fair toward women are actually over represented with women. Women flock to companies where they are graded on the same standards as men.

              If you can’t get women it’s becauee they know they won’t get an equal shot.

              I’ve had lots of sexist places recruit me and all they’ve gotten is the raspberry.

              1. Dan T*

                i really dont think that’s true. our non-engineering team has a lot of women, including our director of finance. one of the two women we just hired is in charge of one of our most important teams and both really enjoy the company (i know one of them pretty well from before this job). not to mention that how well we treat women really wouldnt likely affect how many applicants we get. i could see it affecting how many applicants we close, but they wouldnt be able to learn any of that stuff until they get to the interview point. we’re a tiny startup so there isnt really much information about us out there except for our own materials.

                1. Dan T*

                  when i say that i dont think that’s true i meant specifically to the point that “If you can’t get women it’s because they know they won’t get an equal shot.”

                2. Engineer Girl*

                  So many times I’ve heard “we support women! Look at our administrative positions!”

                  But engineering is technical and should NEVER be compared with positions that are usually female based (or have better representation).

                  You need to look in the hard core tech side of things.

                  not to mention that how well we treat women really wouldnt likely affect how many applicants we get

                  You deceive yourself. We network and talk.

                  I’d also suggest you take a look at your job descriptions to see if they are full of testosterone. “Hard charging” “take no prisoners”
                  Ew.

              2. Dan T*

                When I said that the rest of the company has a much better female representation I didn’t mean admins lol! I was going to ask if someone would actually claim that having female admins makes their company not sexist and then I realized that, of course some people would lol… But no I was referring to roles like: our director of finance, head of marketing, head of one of the sales departments (we have two, one for each of our major markets), account managers, HR. So there are a lot of women in leadership roles and the non-engineering side of the company as a whole is probably 40-50% women.

                That being said I take your point that that doesn’t “excuse” the imbalance on the engineering team.

                I mentioned below that actually our stats have apparently improved a lot in the last several months and out of our last 4 engineering hires, 2 were women (they were unfortunately the first women though…). So basically I think that things are radically improving. I just brought this whole thing up to say that I really don’t think that a gender imbalance is necessarily sure evidence that a company is profoundly sexist. On the other hand, I don’t have an explanation for our bad stats… Unless women are even more underrepresented in tiny startups than the general market. But I guess the good news is that regardless of whether we have a sexism problem or not, I think we are doing the right things. We are actually starting a major D&I program that includes general anti-bias training. Which I don’t think is a silver bullet but it is a good step to take.

                1. Engineer Girl*

                  Finance, marketing, sales, HR are all non-tech roles. Don’t you get it? They are also historically female ones.

                  Don’t you Dare compare tech women to non-tech roles. I don’t give a hoot how many women are in your non-tech positions. I want to see women in leadership in the hard core stuff. You have ZERO women in leadership in tech roles. Zero.

                  You’ve also dismissed and argued with every point I’ve made, even though you have zero data to back it up. Indeed, the data you do provide contradicts your conclusions.

                  And you think two new recent hires of women is a “radical improvement?” In what statistical analysis?

                  I really don’t think that a gender imbalance is necessarily sure evidence that a company is profoundly sexist.

                  It absolutely is, especially across so many years. If you provided a welcoming place the women would flock there.

                  But I guess the good news is that regardless of whether we have a sexism problem or not, I think we are doing the right things

                  What a bizarre conclusion!! If sexism is the root cause then it doesn’t matter what “thing” you do. Until you eliminate that no other program matters.

                  If you ignore and dismiss the women like you do me, the problem is simple. It’s a lack of respect for a woman’s opinion – even when she’s had years of experience in the business. You have dismissed and argued with every argument I’ve made – not with data, but by simply claiming it can’t be true. Your disrespect for my years of knowledge in tech is just squiring through your pores.

                  And you’re not even seeing it.

                  But thanks for providing a great example of why a woman wouldn’t want to work with you. Who wants to have every input dismissed, ignored, and negated?

                2. Dan T*

                  I have respectfully listened to every point that you’ve made. I do disagree with you – does that intrinsically make me a sexist? Is every man who disagrees with you a sexist? Imagine that the company I work for is hypothetically an ideal place for women to work and the gender imbalance is a statistical anomaly – in that case would I still be a sexist for disagreeing? I assure you that I would say the exact same things to a man. Do you concede even the possibility that a company could be non-sexist and yet have a gender imbalance? Because I certainly concede the point that I might be wrong about us being sexist.

                  I just looked it up and I was shocked to see that only about 15% of software engineers are women. Our expected number of female software engineers is therefore 4.5. We have 2, but that is statistically not a crazy variation at all. And 50% of our engineering hires in the last few months have been women, which I would say is most certainly significant progress.

                  As for your accusation that I am not making fact based points – I listed many specific reasons for why I don’t think the company is sexist: 1. The fact that we’ve launched about 6 or 7 significant programs to address the problem, 2. The fact that we have significant female representation in leadership (btw sales and finance are not historically female roles!!!). 3. The fact that I am close to one of the new female engineers from before this job and she has told me she loves working here. 4. Lack of turnover among female employees. etc etc etc. Your only point is the prima facie assertion that if we have a gender imbalance we are sexist… And the further assertion that I am sexist for not just agreeing with you!!

                  Finally, to your point that how dare I say we are doing the right things since we aren’t yet at parity: what else do you suggest doing? You mentioned anti-bias training for management and we are already doing that. You (or perhaps someone else) mentioned asking women for feedback on job postings and about the company’s general reputation to see if anything is going on there. I will suggest that. Anything else? Because I really am curious if there’s something I’m missing. But I would say that we do have most of the generally recommended programs going and it has shown progress – significant improvement in the number of female applicants and hires.

                3. Dan T*

                  Btw just to address this point specifically: “Your disrespect for my years of knowledge in tech is just squiring through your pores.”

                  I do respect your opinion. Enough to listen to everything you said, and enough to actually make a few suggestions to our head of recruiting. The fact that you are a woman who works in tech is the reason that I did listen to you – if you had been a guy I probably wouldn’t have even replied.

                  You on the other hand absolutely and very obviously don’t respect my perspective at all. I actually work at this company!! I mean of course people have biases, but you have not even considered the remote possibility that I might be right. Not to say that you have to do that – there have certainly been times when I’ve argued with people and I didn’t think there was even the slightest chance that they were right. But I do think that the statement “Your disrespect for my [experience] is dripping through your pores” applies far more to you than me.

            3. Starbuck*

              What about your company culture and benefits? Paid parental leave? Flexible schedules? Internships for female students?

              1. Dan T*

                we have very generous paid parental leave, especially for a startup (6 months for the parent that gives birth at full pay, 3 months for the parent that doesn’t). ditto with flexible schedules – you can work from home anytime and we have several fully remote employees. we do not have an internship program at all

            4. Engineer Girl*

              Another thing to consider. Men seem shocked – SHOCKED! That women engineers share information with each other about problem companies and people. All the women know who the misogynist people are because we share that information. We also know which companies have problems. We share.

              I’d suggest seeking honest answers from tech women on why they arent looking at your company. As engineers, we are well able to explain why something isn’t happening. We can also provide examples and data. It’s our specialty after all.
              But… you need to listen and not argue when the data is presented. Because arguing is just another form of mansplaining. It also shows that you don’t respect our conclusions. Questions to clarify? Yes. Telling us why we’re wrong? Buh-bye.

              1. Dan T*

                that is a good idea. but i doubt that we have a bad reputation just because only 6 people have ever left the company (it’s only 4 years old and while we have about 70 people now we have grown super rapidly so it was only 15 about 2.5 years ago when I joined). two of them were women but one was moving and the other was changing careers, and neither were engineers.

                and i really dont mean to be resistant about this stuff. i have done a lot of wondering about this. i just honestly love the company and it’s the healthiest place ive ever worked. and have never once heard anyone make an off-color joke, say anything inappropriate, or even generally be a jerk in general. also while im a man i am not straight and i am not completely blind to this stuff.

                1. blackcat*

                  You might not have notice, say, a dude staring at a woman’s chest while interviewing her.
                  But she would have noticed.
                  And she would have gone NOPE.
                  And then told all of her friends.
                  I don’t have good suggestions for how to fix the “We have no women, so no women want to work here” self perpetuating problem. But there may very well be things that have happened in interviews that have given women pause.
                  Have you looked at your glassdoor reviews for interviews? That might be a good place to get some insight.

                2. Dan T*

                  thats valid. i really cannot imagine that happening – if someone were observed doing something like that they would be fired instantly. but as a guy (and especially as a gay guy who doesnt even think of looking at a woman’s chest as an option) i might not notice something like that happening.

                  i didnt know that glassdoor had interview reviews until right now! interesting discovery. i just checked and out of 6 reviews, 5 were positive. the negative one was not gender related.

                  and actually it’s interesting but this thread led me to check in with our head recruiter and apparently our stats have been much better the last 3-4 months. i dont think that anything really has changed during that time except that the recruiter dedicated solely to finding female applicants ramped up. which is a big change, but is not a cultural change.

                3. Engineer Girl*

                  have never once heard anyone make an off-color joke, say anything inappropriate, or even generally be a jerk in general.

                  I’m willing to put up with that if someone gives me fair assessment and treatment of my work. It drives me bananas when some guy argues with me (when I’m the expert), interrupts me, or claims I got lucky on my assignment.

                  If you want more women then you need to go to those women in tech meetings and ask them to help you.

                  You also need to realize that it isn’t the 6 women leaving. It’s the 30 women applying (out of 800) that is the problem. You can’t keep the women and you can’t attract them.

                4. Engineer Girl*

                  I want to correct myself on the women leaving. I misread. But you can’t attract women and that is the sign of a problem.

            5. CeUK*

              Surely hiring two women who are doing so well is a sign that these strategies are moving you in the right direction? Keep at them, and try not to be defensive when other commenters are pointing out ways in which your strategy could be improved – that’s a matter of being realistic, as do you really think a company of predominantly men have solved the problems of sexism in tech? Of course not, but you don’t have to have done that (yet!), you just need to be open to continuous improvement and refinement. Echoing other comments, approaching women in tech networks to specifically ask what turns them off certain job adverts, opportunities etc. is a great idea. It’s data which you can use to improve. BUT you have to put egos aside – even if you think you’re not sexist, you live in a deeply sexist society, so continuous improvement which centres women’s demands is crucial

          3. Jules the 3rd*

            Hire smart women and give them classes. There’s a ton of female MBAs out there, give them project management and programming classes and have them run your teams.

            A smart person can learn enough Java to understand the concepts in 2 months, and to be productive (esp in, say, a peer programming environment) in 6. It’s worth it. Hire for brains and drive, you can teach the skills.

            1. Dan T*

              That really does not make sense…

              Why would you take a person with an MBA, someone who has become an expert in their field (business!), and then have them become entry level programmers?

              Idk if you work in tech, but engineering teams are not led by business people, they are led by engineers. I mean if you go enough layers up eventually you get to the CEO, who may or may not be a business person, but below her is going to be the VP of Engineering who is an engineer, and so is everyone underneath. The “business” equivalent on a cross-functional team is a PM, but somebody with an MBA is probably not going to become a PM either, they’re probably going to be on the finance side or doing strategy at a company big enough to have strategy people.

              I get really frustrated by the idea that engineers need to be led by business people. This is a particularly galling example because it implies that a business person with 2 months of training would be better qualified to run an engineering team than engineers with many years of training!

    4. Gaia*

      It is such a weird coincidence that they haven’t hired any women given how unfriendly their benefits and sales strategies are to women. Crazy, right?

      1. Savannnah*

        Because it’s basically just an old white mans club: golfing, taking clients to strip clubs, beer tours, high levels of drinking, real loose with the company credit cards and lots of male centric networking.

        1. Gaia*

          Oh gross. Just…so much worse than I imagined.

          They should actually change this now. Or better, yesterday.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          What a wonder that they’ve never had women on their sales team.

          (Gag.)

          1. CanuckCat*

            Pump the brakes a little OP, Savannah was referring to their own comment up top where they said “It is an open joke at my husbands company that if they ever hired a woman into their sales or management team, they would have to totally revamp their entire benefits and sales strategy. Luckily (ha) for them, it’s yet to happen.” Their husband’s company, not yours.

            1. OP*

              Sorry i have been trying to keep up with the comments but there are a ton. The strip club/old white man club thing was brought up other places and I am trying to clarify that that is not even close to something we would consider, or have done in the past.

      2. Liane*

        “I’m insanely curious. Why would they have to revamp their benefits or sales strategy?”

        The implication, to me anyways, is that either those things are clearly structured to be (more?) unfair to women or the people making those jokes ASSume that no women could possibly need, use, or be interested in whatever they offer.

    6. Mazzy*

      What kind of benefits are you referring to? I’m thinking of dental, medical, life insurance and 401k and maybe a commuter reimbursement as the benefits most all employees offer, so was wondering what else there is out there than can be exclusionary.

      1. Savannnah*

        Benefits for the sales team, which includes reward outing like the one OP mentions- when they hit certain sales targets. Plus no parental leave.

  13. Anonym*

    Also, consider that there may be men among your longer tenured employees who have felt pressure to participate, but wouldn’t do so if the situation were different. I know several men of different generations who have expressed frustration that they have to learn to play golf and pretend to like it for the sake of their careers.

    Access to and informal (powerful) relationship building with management is best when there are multiple avenues to it, and not a main avenue that favors some based on their interests, background or identity.

    Really glad you’re thinking about and tackling this, OP! Best of luck!

    1. OP*

      Thank you for the good wishes. Trying to do best by the company and employees.
      There are significant changes coming, but it may take some time.

      1. Southern Yankee*

        I really appreciate that you wrote in, are actively engaging in the conversation and are trying to make positive changes for your employees. Good luck and I hope you find solutions that work for everyone at your company and provide equal access to networking!

  14. Maya Elena*

    I disagree that you have to phase out the trip. Based on your description, there’s no reason it can’t be a more inclusive event with a few small modifications, even if gold has a “problem history”. It doesn’t have to have a problem future.

    It seems like the most sensible course of action is to 1) offer the money and day off to anyone, of any gender, who chooses not to participate (anyone resentful about not getting money LAST year can suck it up). 2) Let women ride along in the cart and watch and cheer, with no special beer stewardship duties (so anyone can be cart boy or girl), like a non-golfer guy would. Eventually you will get a woman who will play or want to try. 3) separate cabin of course for any women who come, but do other full team events like dinner so that segregated cabin time is just for sleeping.

    Seriously – the “well a guy might spend an extra 30 minutes with the boss while golfing so he will necessarily get a golden parachute opportunity because of his gender by default” is a bit overblown, especially if there is no context of harrassing or exclusionary behavior on the team. Unless your sales team resembles Wolf of Wall Street group of i-bankers, you’re more likely to be fine.

    1. CR*

      Sitting on a golf cart for four hours watching men hit a little ball and being a cheerleader is a hard pass.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yeah, the look of that is . . . not good. And if you think that the networking/bonding will be the same for the players and for the people just sitting in the cart “cheering,” you are sadly mistaken. As for the “well a guy might spend an extra 30 minutes with the boss while golfing so he will necessarily get a golden parachute opportunity because of his gender by default” comment–that’s a misrepresentation of how this works, and a convenient one for people who want to ignore the actual impact of the effect of this kind of thing. I’m not going to explain it here because the information is an easy google search away, but yes, this kind of access DOES have an impact on people’s employment and promotion prospects, and it DOES serve to cement the status quo of who gets opportunities. I cannot believe we still have to have this conversation in 2019.

      2. merula*

        For you. And that’s fine.

        And it shouldn’t be the ONLY option presented, but it’s an option that men have had and have opted in to, so if any women would like to do the same, I think that’s up to them.

        1. CR*

          But it’s ALL the women at the company. Their job should not be cheering on the menfolk.

    2. fposte*

      But this *is* part of a pattern of exclusionary behavior at this business, because they haven’t had enough female employees for it to even come up until 2019. They really don’t want to keep looking like they’re being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would literally rather get cavities filled than watch people play golf.

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        But if you don’t do that, you are not being a team player! We are including you. I mean, we are going to do what we want, but you are welcome to show up and not do it.
        – Sarcasm.

      3. DerJungerLudendorff*

        It would also have actual benefits for you, instead of just wasting your time.

    4. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      “well a guy might spend an extra 30 minutes with the boss while golfing so he will necessarily get a golden parachute opportunity because of his gender by default” is a bit overblown, especially if there is no context of harrassing or exclusionary behavior on the team.
      There is no history of exclusionary behavior because up until 2019, there have been no women on the team. At all. OP states that it a long tradition and this is the FIRST TIME they’ve ever had women.
      So yeah, there’s no hard data at this company that proves an extra 30 minutes on the golf course gives men the upper hand, except that decades of 4 day men’s golf weekends kept anyone from realizing “hey, we have no women here.”

      1. LadyofLasers*

        Death by 1000 cuts. An hour here a half an hour there and suddenly the boss ‘just feels more comfortable around Steve for some reason ‘

      2. I'm Bluffing*

        “There is no history of exclusionary behavior because up until 2019, there have been no women on the team.”

        Anyone else see the irony in this? It’s been a good ‘ol boys club until this year, so we couldn’t *possibly* have been excluding anyone!

        2. DerJungerLudendorff*

          You can’t discriminate anyone if you never let them into the office!
          *head tapping man gif*

      3. Ashley*

        How about golf club with Men’s Grills? They still exist. I had a golf outing where it took place in the Men’s Grille. I was allowed in since it was a special event but cutting out to go to the bathroom as an adventure since the primary access was through the men’s locker room. Golf is steeped in sexism.

        1. Dragoning*

          Anything involving the phrase “I was allowed in since it was a special event” should be a hard no, especially for work.

        2. JustaTech*

          My parent’s club made the grill all-access a few years ago after some strong words from the members (of all genders).

          My in-law’s club has a grill that is technically open to women as well as men, but since women can only go in through the kitchen (hello food safety regs!) it remains a dude-only space.

          Sexism is alive and well in golf.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Also, we don’t need the history for this particular business or team (although the irony of having no women until 2019 is too juicy to ignore), because we have an armada of history, research, and data showing how these events penalize women in the workplace.

      5. Starbuck*

        “There is no history of exclusionary behavior because up until 2019, there have been no women on the team. ”

        Umm??? Is that meant to be sarcasm?

    5. Yorick*

      The boss spends the whole weekend shooting the breeze with Joe while golfing. All that time, Jane is way over there in the cart. Which do you think the boss knows better and feels more comfortable with? Which one does the boss think is bright and nice to work with? Which is going to seem like a better choice for this project working closely with the boss and most important clients?

      The whole “well a guy might spend an extra 30 minutes with the boss while golfing so he will necessarily get a golden parachute opportunity because of his gender by default” is real.

    6. Gaia*

      Hard no.

      1. This will be a problem if it is still only women (and all women) who choose to take the money and day off over the trip. You’re still discriminating.
      2. This will still be a problem if it is still only women (and all women) who choose to stay at the cart over golfing and networking with management. (and it isn’t 30 minutes, golf lasts hours and has historically led to a lot of close business relationships that exclude women because they weren’t there at the moment).
      3. Separate cabins by gender is very heteronormative and also runs the risk of being trans*-exclusionary. Something I doubt this company has spent much time thinking about.

      1. Flash Bristow*

        Right, I was wondering about trans colleagues (who may not be out at work), or people who don’t drink because of religious, medical or personal reasons not wanting to be around beer all day, as well as women. I bet there are plenty of people who aren’t comfortable at the event as described – even if they normally love golf!

        When a non-drinking Muslim joined my workplace, we stopped having work-funded socials in the pub and instead went to a lovely independent pizza restaurant. It wasn’t an issue and everyone enjoyed it. Then again there was a boat trip which I went on… because I didn’t want to expose my aquaphobia… I’ve had better times. “No thanks I really don’t need to see the view, thanks anyway I’m fine over here…”

        I guess a lot of activities will have *someone* who is uncomfortable with them, so I think the activity should change each year.

        You could all go on a hack (sitting on solid reliable horses that will only walk) and chat that way, pausing at cafes, for example – but probably someone will have a horse allergy or phobia. Same with me and boat trip.

        Cooking classes are fun too, but someone will be gluten free…

        So change it up every year while trying to make accommodation for any issues that people are prepared to expose, and be aware that they might not be willing to reveal them so it shouldn’t be the same each time.

    7. A Simple Narwhal*

      Meh maybe it’s not that much to the extreme, but getting facetime with an executive can totally make a difference – you become a known quantity. Rather than just a name on an org chart, you’re now Tim, the guy who told the funny turtle joke on the green and likes jazz, we bonded over our mutual love of fondue and our tendency to slice the ball, Tim, what a swell guy. If it comes down to a promotion between Tim and Joanne and they’re both equally competent and qualified, and Tim is a person and Joanne is just a name to them, who do you think they’ll choose?

      I actually just came across this the other day when I was talking about my career path with my manager. It’s notoriously hard to get promoted in our group (department head refuses to submit you for a promotion unless you’re already performing the job you’d be promoted into at a rockstar level – it’s an ongoing fight because hr and my group’s lead strongly disagrees with that mentality) and my manager suggested that if I can get facetime with a person above the department head, that can let you bypass the need to have the department head submit you for a promotion. The exec knows you as a person, a manager can suggest the idea of a promotion, and the exec gets the ball rolling, all without the department head stonewalling the start of the process.

      Fortunately my company is big on charity and volunteering, so it would potentially be easy to bump elbows with an exec at one of those (workday) events, but if my only option was a sporting weekend I didn’t participate in and the exec heavily did? That would make things significantly more difficult.

      So yea, maybe it won’t secure you a golden parachute, but getting an exec to know you as a person can definitely have benefits.

      1. BethRA*

        IT’s not just face time with the boss, either – it’s building relationships with other members of the organization. Those networks can pay significant dividends not just in your current job but in your career going forward.

    8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Everything you’re proposing contributes to golf having a problematic future, and it has the added bonus of penalizing women in the workplace from developing important work-related networks and relationships by insisting that they either serve in a subordinated role or exclude themselves from the opportunity. That’s really not acceptable for a business, for ethical and legal reasons.

      Moreover, minimizing the gender-based inequalities as a “30 minutes with the boss” benefit that somehow disappears as long as there’s no “harassing or exclusionary behavior” is just flat-out wrong. You don’t have to be the Wolf of Wall Street or i-bankers to perpetuate and create massive gender inequality in the workplace. You don’t even have to have a sexist, evil heart to endorse and support unlawfully sexist, evil programming or behavior.

      Women who don’t want to play golf are not the problem, here—the problem is OP’s company’s golf extravaganza / reward system. We need to help OP figure out how to make this right going forward, not encourage him to continue with a program that’s flat-out wrong.

    9. OP*

      Thank you. Yes we do a full team dinner two nights, so the sleeping arrangements are just for sleeping.

      One of the big reasons for the trip is we have two teams in two different cities, that don’t get to spend much time together. I would hate to get rid of the opportunity, but I also want it to be an enjoyable experience for everyone. These trips don’t work if they feel like an obligation, which is why we are looking for ways to make it more appealing.

      1. Kj*

        What about a family picnic day in a place between the two teams’ locations? Have a catered meal, games for the kids and for adults and the like? My father’s company did this and it was actually nice for everyone. I have find memories of going to the little farm where the event took place, meeting some other random kids/being introduced to my dad’s boss and running around playing games/looking at animals.

        2. OP*

          We used to do something like that for the whole company, not just sales. It worked well for awhile but fizzled out. I will look into getting it started up again. Thank you.

        3. Flash Bristow*

          Good lord. I’m child free by choice, and when I’ve been to community picnics I’ve accidentally sworn, been seen to *shock horror* have an alcoholic drink… if there are gonna be other people’s kids there, I’m out.

          Also, I’m physically disabled and a wheelchair user and it hurts if you touch me, bang your football into me, or try to push my chair.

          Guess no one activity suits everyone (as I said, change it each year, I wouldn’t mind having to suck it up once if next time was something I could find a way to enjoy).

    10. Anonya*

      Are you kidding me? Being the guys’ cheerleader is no way, shape, or form anything I’m interested in doing. Oh yay, I get to sit on the sidelines while the manly men do their manly man thing!

  15. AllyPally*

    It seems like one easy thing to do would be to diversify the activities on that weekend. It says in the letter they play multiple courses, maybe just play one and do other activities the rest of the weekend? When a team gets bigger you’re never going to find one activity that everyone enjoys, but as a non-golf player I’d be more happy to hang out and watch one round of golf, knowing we’d be doing other stuff too, than spend an entire weekend watching people play golf.

    1. MicroManagered*

      I agree. Why can’t they do a weekend trip (voluntary for all) where ONE golf outing is an activity (optional for all) and then there are other things to do.

    2. MuseumChick*

      This. Why not have a number of activities and let people choose which ones to attend?

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Which ones will managers attend? Because the purpose of this “perk” is to thank you, the real benefit of this perk is face time with the managers. If you can tell me that the head of sales will be present and equally involved in every activity, then bring it on. If he is going to choose to golf while I choose something else, then we’re still at square one.

        1. fposte*

          Yup. One thing that may need to be stated explicitly: yes, changing this up does mean more labor for the higher-ups–they can’t just let the staff come to them on the golf course but have to be thoughtful and deliberate about choosing activities that allow them access to different staff at different times. It’s a work trip for them too.

    4. Nobby Nobbs*

      The letter says it’s a beach town. Surely there’s restaurants? Go-karts? Kitschy tourist shops with fudge? A movie theater? A beach?

      1. J.*

        I’m absolutely not going to hang out on the beach with my work team and a bunch of managers, and I definitely don’t want to see my manager in a bathing suit. Pass.

        1. JustaTech*

          My boss and I once spent about 20 minutes sitting on the beach (in regular clothes) because it was nice on the beach and we were going home to cold and wet and miserable, but it still was a bit awkward, just because it was a beach. I think a pier would have been less weird.

        2. Southern Yankee*

          I had a company beach event (that I suspect was formerly a golf event), and while a lot of the activities were just fine, seeing coworkers in beach attire was very very uncomfortable. A few of those images I will never get out of my head. To make it worse, I had just transferred to that division about a month before the event. Ugh, Ick, Never again!

        3. Groove Bat*

          Ugh, my company’s annual reward trip was always to a beach resort location. I avoided the water sport activities but did get a kick out of the spa perk when I kept running into my opposite-sex boss in his spa robe. We joked about it after, calling it Awkward Spa Day.

    5. OP*

      That is a great idea. We may need to consider a different destination, but that can certainly be done. Thank you.

      Yea typically three rounds of golf in two days, not much fun for a spectator.

  16. Toodie*

    The line that struck me was
    Many of our team have young children and the weekend getaway is well received and appreciated.
    So … in the past, fathers of small children attended and appreciated leaving the kids at home with Mom? Ish.

    1. Alucius*

      Yeah, my first read was that the company was also providing a getaway for the spouses and young families to come along and do their own thing. But…uh, I think your read is much more likely

    2. Tin Cormorant*

      Is it weird that I read this and assumed the spouses were somehow coming too and bringing the kids and they were making time for fun family activities on the side when not golfing?

      3. Guacamole Bob*

        I kind of read it this way, too. But I wonder if all the men would actually be appreciative of this, even if they say they are. And how their spouses feel about it.

        My spouse and I took our twins to a beach town when they were 3 for a few days for a family event. It was totally exhausting – you’re on someone else’s schedule for activities so you end up with kids who are tired/hungry a lot, one of us was always stepping out with one or both of the kids during meals because we were eating at fancy places and they got restless, it’s hard to manage little kids’ food needs without a grocery store and kitchen, they were too young not to be watched like hawks one-on-one adult-to-kid anywhere near water, kids don’t nap well in hotel rooms, sharing a hotel room with young kids is terrible if it’s not a suite where you can put them to bed and then be in a separate room, one parent has to skip out on everything after like 7 p.m. to be with the kids in the hotel, etc. We did it because of the importance of the event to our extended family, but it would have been easier to stay at home solo with the kids and have my spouse go on the trip alone. I’d resent the hell out of a company that expected me to do that annually.

        Now that my kids are a couple of years older maybe some parts of a weekend like this would be fun, but much less than if we were able to plan a weekend to suit our schedules and the kids’ particular attention/energy/interest levels.

    3. Blue*

      This jumped out at me as well. It’s not really surprising given the rest of the stuff happening in this letter, but still. Yuck.

      1. OP*

        Maybe I am wrong but I think everyone needs a getaway every now and then. That applies to the women on the trip as well.

        1. J.*

          A weekend trip with colleagues and managers where you have to be on your best work behavior for a whole weekend (and if you’re salaried, presumably not paid extra for it) is not anywhere near the realm of what I would consider to be a “getaway.”

          1. OP*

            Certainly not best work behavior on this trip. Historically this was a pretty wild weekend (as far as golf weekends go) and a place to unwind.

            1. Kj*

              And that brings up even more potential legal issues….dude, you need to end this event. It is a ticking time bomb and the more you write, the more problems I see.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              Wild weekend??? Any result in divorces? don’t answer that.

              OP, you have many layers of problems here. And you would probably be wise to bring in legal counsel here.
              You were correct in writing Alison, your company has deeply rooted problems with many aspects.

              At this point, I am so disgusted by your company that I have given up on them. Mostly now I have started to become concerned about YOU.
              This might not be worth your time to sort it all out. Let them figure it out while they deal with their lawsuits. Get out while you still have some good name left for yourself. WHEN (not IF, but rather WHEN) this comes crashing down on them, you don’t want to be caught in that fracas saying “But I even wrote AAM, I was trying to fix it.” You are going to get tarred with the same brush as the folks you hang out with.

              1. OP*

                No. Your version of wild might be different than mine. by wild I meant drinking beer, not strippers and blow. Wild meant being relaxed around your boss, acting like friends for the weekend, etc.

                What I meant was, the benefit of the trip is being in a laid back setting, not on best behavior, with upper management and owners. The reason I wanted to continue the trip, and not cancel it, is I wanted that same experience for the women too. Not many opportunities for that with out current leadership outside of a golf course (just because of their interests).

                The company as a whole is a great thing. The sales team by itself has a culture that needs to change, I agree. There is no “wildness” about this history that would put us in any legal danger.

            5. Quandong*

              Oh my god. OP. For the love of all things holy, Let the Golf Weekend GO.
              Maybe you and ‘the boys’ will need a healing circle to manage your feelings, but this must STOP.

        2. ag47*

          Sure, but you’re dumping a lot of added responsibility on the spouse that remains behind. Traditionally, women are expected to accommodate this; men haven’t been.

          But you’re also ignoring that childcare responsibilities may be different depending on the age of the child–a breastfeeding mom might not feel comfortable leaving her child for a “reward” trip when a dad of a similarly aged child might be OK with it.

          1. Guacamole Bob*

            This x1000.

            I’m doing a professional development program this year that requires 3 multi-night trips away. This is the first time I’ve had work travel to this extent, and before this year I probably wouldn’t have applied for such a program. I’ve got young kids, and it’s only in the last year that they’ve been old enough that leaving town for multiple nights for something discretionary felt doable. We’ve managed plenty of mandatory stuff, but it has a real impact on our family and we try pretty hard to keep it to a minimum.

            When the kids were younger, for travel of more than a couple of nights we’ve asked family to travel to stay with us and help out. It’s an eight hour drive, and they’re happy to do it now and then to support our family and our careers. But it’d be pretty obnoxious if one of our companies presented a mandatory weekend away as a gift of time away from the family, since it uses support resources that may not be available for other things – my in-laws have lives of their own and can only make the trip every so often. Assuming that time away is actually experienced as a perk for any given employee is kind of a crappy move for a company to make.

            1. Data Analyst*

              Okay. I was just pointing out that using “everyone needs downtime/time away from their family” is not great justification for a business decision around what rewards are chosen for employees because it steps out of the realm of things an employer should be impacting. It seems like you have been approaching this with a spirit of inquisitiveness and a desire to be sensitive — hence asking the question! And that’s great. But a lot of people are seizing on the key phrase about time away from family, and that is making you defensive. Can you instead figure that this isn’t just a bunch of people who happen to be overreacting en masse, and that there is something problematic about what that’s saying?

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              But I thought this trip was supposed to be a reward – so does the person who misses get something in lieu of this trip, then? Because if not, this is pretty crappy.

              1. Quandong*

                Right! How do the people who stay at home reap the reward? Do they get gift cards in lieu? Cash in lieu?

                The more OP reveals, the less this trip seems like a ‘reward’ to me.

        4. Midwest Writer*

          I would say parents, particularly of young children, are split about 50-50 on whether they actually want a getaway without their kids, based on parenting boards I’ve frequented over the years. Some people are WAY into getting overnight/weekend sitters, others don’t want that time away from their kids at all. My husband and I work full-time; a weekend work requirement that took me away from him and my kids even more would be an obligation. I like being around my kids most of the time, especially while they’re small. We’re far away from parents and I don’t have a ton of people I can call on to watch them overnight for something like this (if, say, you offered to take spouses/partners along). Plenty of people would disagree with me and that’s fine, but as other posters have pointed out, people who think like I do will hear about your company’s culture and opt out before we ever apply, because I like to keep work and recreation time pretty separate.

    4. Funbud*

      I was so happy to read this and realize that at this company it’s still 1963! Warms my heart, the little women left at home with the kiddies while the “boss and the boys” shoot a few rounds…

      1. OP*

        Is it that uncommon for a company to do an overnight trip that isn’t explicitly for work?

        Or is it just that you are reading it as a way to stick it to the wives?

        1. Kj*

          Yes. Very few companies do overnight trips that are not business trips (i.e. working trips). Having a ‘just for fun’ trip is unusual and is going to lead to problems for your company.

          1. Hoya Lawya*

            “Yes. Very few companies do overnight trips that are not business trips (i.e. working trips). Having a ‘just for fun’ trip is unusual and is going to lead to problems for your company.”

            Hard disagree. I have worked for four so far companies in my career. The first three did an annual staff retreat at a nice resort in desirable places (Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Rome, etc.), all on the company’s dime. Family members were invited and the company paid for everything. Company 3 combined leisure activities with a few work-related/strategic activities. Companies 1 and 2 did an entirely leisure-oriented retreat.

            I appreciate that this can depend a lot on the economy, the company’s culture, industry, blue collar versus white collar issues, and so on — but it’s absolutely wrong to say that companies never do overnight trips for leisure or team building purposes.

        2. EH*

          Yes. I have literally never had an overnight trip not explicitly for work, and my company took us paintballing last year. I’ve been in my current industry for 12 years and can’t think of a time I even heard someone else had gone on such a trip. For a work event, sure, but not for fun.

        3. boo bot*

          I think part of the reason people are pointing this out is that it’s *another* aspect of the trip that’s not quite as lovely for everyone as it might seem on the surface, and that assumes some dynamics that aren’t appropriate in the workplace.

          Like, having an overnight trip by itself isn’t necessarily a terrible thing; having a golf trip isn’t necessarily a terrible thing, it’s just that the issues kind of pile on top of one another to form a pattern that assumes your workers will be male, play golf, and have wives who can stay home with the kids.

        4. TechWorker*

          My company does these every ~3 years (along with ~yearly away from home events where partners and children are invited). Tbh I’d not thought of this as being a particular problem as it’s so infrequent but it’s interesting to see that side.

          1. OP*

            Yea ours are usually every 18 months to two years. But again, it only really worked because it was a homogenous group. Not something that is going to work the same way going forward. Just looking for an alternative now.

            1. Hoya Lawya*

              I don’t think you need to conclude that an overnight retreat “only worked because it was a homogeneous group.” Professional services firms have them routinely. Hotels make a lot of money off of groups like this. Bear in mind that this blog is heavily skewed towards introverts and people who dislike socializing far more than the general population, which is why I think you’re getting this advice.

              1. OP*

                This specific trip worked because it was easy, and the choice of activities was a no-brainer.

  17. Expand All Threaded Comments*

    You have 10-15 salespeople going on this trip. MAKE IT A TEAM COMPETITION instead of individuals.
    Each team gets a non-player. If you have a team with no-nonplayers, then handicap them.

    Prepare for the event by either having a trip to a driving range, or bring in one of those driving nets and some clubs. Encourage the teams to support their non-player and to bond.

    In addition to the team golf playing, run side games of “fantasy golf” which will allow the non-players to also participate without having to play golf themselves (make last year’s scores avaibable so they are making informed choices). Or a side game where people pick their brackets for the tournament (again, allowing non players the ability to participate without having to play golf).

    BECAUSE THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A BONDING/TEAM TRIP.

    Don’t separate the women/non-players, don’t isolate them or do anything that says that they are lesser or not really part of the team, that the benefits/events are not really for them.

    1. Dwight*

      They play best ball as stated by the LW, which is a team competition. In a team of 4, you only play the best shot of the 4. You could have 3 terrible players, and still win if your 4th carries the team. That format is built for this.

    3. Tin Cormorant*

      My problem is that this is meant to be a *reward* in lieu of a monetary bonus. I hate all competitive sports and this kind of event would be torture of the worst kind. Maybe a lot of people would be looking forward to it all year, but I’d be dreading it. “Including” and “supporting” me is not going to make it more fun. It’s just going to increase how much pressure there is on me to pretend I’m having fun and being a team player.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nope. Quoting fposte from above, it’s still ” dependent on a monoculture for its assumption of enjoyment; and the monoculture is a dated one associated with asymmetric and unfair privilege.”

    5. Gaia*

      Nope. You still have an entire gender that does not want to participate. Still a problem.

      1. Expand All Threaded Comments*

        it’s not that there is an ‘entire gender that does not want to participate’ – it is that this event is not meant for non-players. In the past, “male sales rep who did not play golf, he might come on the trip and ride in a cart, and just drink beer or observe, or might elect to not attend at all” so it sounds as if “best ball” play apparently does not encourage non players to play. The fact that this year they have many more non-players and that they are women means that their refusal to fix this issue in the past is resulting in the women being isolated and 2nd tiered.

        If it has to be golf this year, why not set it up in a way that changes what ‘winning’ looks like, and by changing the goals of the event, you can make it more inclusive, even if it means making it more of a game of chance, rather than skill-based so as to not penalize the newbies. (ie the golf scores aren’t the only scores that count) It may be difficult/impossible to make golf more inclusive, but who says they have to play standard golf? I’m not trying to fix golf or figure out a way to make golf possible for next year. I’m just trying to figure out how to make this company event one as inclusive as it can be for this year.

        1. Gaia*

          No, it very much IS that an entire gender does not want to participate. The issue would be the same no matter what the event was and no matter what gender was being excluded.

          Changing what winning looks like doesn’t fix the problem. The way to be more inclusive is to not do an activity that isolates an entire gender (even if it also isolates some of another gender but includes the rest of the other gender).

          There are no legal requirements that a company provide an event that everyone is excited about. There are legal requirements that if a company provides an event that one entire gender is excluded from (even by choice) they change the event to avoid this outcome.

        2. fposte*

          You do it by understanding it doesn’t have to be golf this year. What you’re proposing is just golf with an asterisk, and all the female employees will be asterisks.

    6. TurquoiseCow*

      I’m still not interested in participating, even as a non-player, in a golf tournament.

    7. OP*

      Yea that is what we do. We set the teams based on handicap, so the non players would be spread out. That is one of the reasons this could work (IF the women actually wanted to play it this way) because it is very low pressure, no skill required kind of golf.

      1. Starbuck*

        Very low pressure for you and the other men perhaps, but almost certainly not without pressure for the women. Several other people further up the thread explained why very well.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I have been that kid who no one wanted on their baseball team (justifiable, but still hurt).
          OP, labeling anyone ESPECIALLY a woman as a handicap for another team is horrible. It’s nothing more than grammar school revisited.

          1. OP*

            You are misunderstanding what handicap means in golf. And the entire premise was based on the hypothetical IF THE WOMEN WANTED TO PLAY.

            All players are spread out by handicap. Makes the teams fair. Not “Women are a handicap”

        3. OP*

          Again that is why I said IF the women want to play. This isn’t happening, because they don’t want to play. So none of it really matters.

    8. bloody mary*

      This does not fix the problem.

      Example–spouse’s office does various co-ed recreational sports leagues which always have required gender ratios. Typically the people who want to do these sports are (young, unmarried) men. These men then proceed to nag their female coworkers into joining an activity they don’t want to do (“because if you don’t, then none of us can play!”), to show up to every game no matter what else they may be doing in their personal evening/weekend time(“because if you don’t, then you don’t care about the company enough!”), and then to play moderately well (“because if you don’t, we’ll lose!”). When they can’t get enough people to field a team, it’s the women’s fault. When they lose every game because they drag in people who don’t know how to and don’t want to play, it’s women’s fault. There are a few women who do want to play, but they are always the manic pixie dreamgirl-like exceptions to the “women ruin sports and bonding and everything good in the world” rule.

      Do not set the women up for failure.

      1. Shan*

        Oh god, yes… businesses in my city do a corporate challenge every year, and the teams require a certain percentage of women. Every year emails go around begging for women to sign up so they aren’t disqualified, and it’s THE WORST. If I wanted to play [blank] sport, I would already have signed up. If I didn’t, I’m almost 100% guaranteed not to be the person you want on your team.

    9. Robm*

      Great, forced participation, being described as your team’s ‘handicap’, “fantasy golf? + which presumably means sitting somewhere updating g your spreadsheet while everyone else takes part in the golf.

      If you’re making a list of terrible ideas you’d be on to a winner here. Just need to work in something truly racist like having some of the team be the golf cart drivers but in blackface makeup or something and you’d have a home run right here.

    10. JenJen*

      I am DYING that the suggestion is to have the women, who already don’t WANT to golf, serve as their team’s “handicap.”

      “Okay guys! Team 1 is Bob, Carl and Tom and their Lady Handicap is Theresa.”

      Just, what? LOL.

  18. LaDeeDa*

    LW- please tell the woman who suggested she be a “cart girl” to stop that line of thinking. She is their colleague, not their assistant, not their girlfriend, and not their mother. She is there to participate as an equal employee not to serve the men. UGGGG.

    I am happy to ride around in the cart and drink beer and never hit a ball, for one trip. As diversity happens within a team/company- inclusion also has to happen. The team is changing, and so must be the way you reward, the incentives offered, and the way in which a team builds their relationships.

    Having “separate but equal” is not an appropriate answer, because while it may seem like “little if any business is discussed when we are there.” it isn’t true. Relationships are built, decisions get made, ideas get swapped- if the women are sent off on a day of shopping (because “ladies like to shop , am I right??” UGGG again) they will be excluded from that, and it will negatively impact their career and success.

    1. OP*

      I am not going to do that, but I get it. It was her suggestion but I did not consider it. If she wanted to, sure…. but I certainly wouldn’t propose that to the other women on the trip.

      1. DerJungerLudendorff*

        I think the bigger problem is having a culture where employees are proposing these things in the first place.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                OP, your company culture is doing you a huge disservice. You are learning many misconceptions that just do not fit with how things work.

          2. savannnah*

            OK- here is the big picture issue with stopping at diversity and not including *inclusion*. You have had some attempt at diversity at your company but you have not done the proactive work to change/fix the culture. So now you have placed minorities into a toxic culture (for them), expect them to thrive and then when there is an issue, question if they are good fit- instead of questioning where your company is failing them. This leads to driving out minorities, and reinforcing antiquated ideas about who is a good ‘fit’ for your company/field. You have to do the work first.

          3. Blarg*

            Calling her “girl” is a problem. And … no saying “one of the boys” is not the same and doesn’t give you permission to call the women girls. Opposite words don’t have the same connotation or significance.

          4. AMPG*

            You probably shouldn’t have hired a girl, since there’s a good chance you’ve run afoul of child labor laws. You should only be hiring women.

          5. LaDeeDa*

            Call me. I will offer my diversity and inclusion unconscious bias training to you for free— normally that is about a $14,000 fee.

          6. Starbuck*

            You definitely shouldn’t hire any “girls,” since child labor is illegal and also it sounds like there will be drinking.

            1. OP*

              Tongue in cheek. Please. Search the number of times “boy” and “girl” have been used in these comments. Flame away on all of them, please.

              My comment was obviously absurd, and the use of the word “girl” was supposed to underscore that.

              1. AngryOwl*

                It was a tone deaf “joke” to make in a post like this.

                I truly believe you’re trying here, but comments like this just reinforce the sense that you’re being defensive.

                1. OP*

                  I was definitely being defensive. Can you blame me? The original response was defensive because our culture was blamed for an individual having an off the cuff idea that the the group here (and myself!) didn’t approve of. There have been a ton of helpful comments about this and some that are just downright overblown. It is amazing how many people apparently cant read a letter about a traditionally male company without audibly gasping. I am not sure where these people live for a traditionally male company to be that unusual.

                  There are circular feminist attacks in these comments that highlight the no-win scenarios if you jump and attack every word of a lengthy post. It might help to remember that most of the world hasn’t been studying up on acceptable language in progressive internet communities. I found out I was a lot of things yesterday including sexist, ableist, working within a time machine, supporting anti-women organizations, and being anti every group I don’t currently employ (including those I have never met, and haven’t applied to work for me or anyone else I know). I don’t live in one of the progressive utopia’s of the country, surrounded by trans folks, people of every religion, people of every color and economic background. Sorry, I wasn’t raised there.

                  I came looking for advice and got some great advice for which I am thankful. But some of it I am just trying to ignore all together. I won’t joking use the word girl again. I have come around completely and acknowledged the trip is not going to happen, but the defensiveness hasn’t worn off completely.

        2. LadyofLasers*

          No, DerJungerLudendorff is suggesting having a culture where minorities don’t have to ingratiate themselves to the dominant culture.

  19. pcake*

    I usually agree with Allison, and I do in theory, but in practice taking away a decades-beloved event from the men is likely to cause resentment against the women. Of course, it’s also excluding the three women there.

    But there are lots of women who love to golf – I live by several golf courses, and there are always women golfing. So maybe the golf trip isn’t about excluding women so much as that the women working there just don’t happen to like golf.

    The OP said they have men who don’t like golf who don’t go to the golf event, so it’s not just excluding women – it’s excluding non-golfers. Maybe offer all the sales team the option of either the golf trip OR a paid day off plus a nice dinner out as a group (of non-golfers) so they can experience work cameraderie and networking, too.

    1. Lynn*

      Thank you for addressing this without going down the ‘gender’ hole. I think your suggestion is great.

        1. TurquoiseCow*

          +1

          It’s a gender issue regardless of whether you call it a gender issue. ALL the women do’t want to play golf. If it was equal parts both men and women, it wouldn’t be a gender issue. As it stands, it is.

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          +1

          This is really important: it’s why dealing with discrimination is hard even in the absence of outright hostility. It’s tempting to say “but we can’t take away a beloved perk from people who have done nothing wrong” – and it sucks. But you may have to, in some form. It’s worth thinking hard and creatively how to do it in a way that it doesn’t come across as mainly taking something away. (Ideally, a lot of men might say “oh, this is even better!” at least after a while.) (Also businesses do it all the time if it’s for other business-related reasons.)

    2. Jennifer M*

      People being sad that an event is being changed is no reason not to do the right thing. Full stop.

      1. Anyabeth*

        THIS. It feels like this whole issue is predicated around “we have a group of men who feel entitled to a golf weekend paid for by work, mean ladies want to take that away. Tell us how to make them stop.” and not an issue of “we realized we had created a culture of excluding people from a reward and we want to change that, what is the best way to do that.” Those are really different goals, and the OP seems to mostly just want to hang on to golf.

    3. CR*

      Yes, women golf. But I think the bigger issue this letter indicates is that this workplace is historically a place for upper class white men, and it hasn’t bothered changing with the times. That’s disturbing, imo.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, what kind of hiring practices do they have that this even exists as an issue in 2019?

        1. OP*

          I cant really fully answer that question, but within the last two years all of our hires in this department were women. Though one suggested the cart girl thing so maybe she doesn’t count in our favor.

          1. pamela voorhees*

            OP, she probably suggested being a cart girl because what she heard was not “fun weekend trip” but “everyone else will be spending face time with higher ups, and I will not be included unless I come up with some kind of solution.” Also please don’t say she doesn’t count as a woman because she was presumably trying to protect her career?…

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Now this post here, put a pang in my heart.
              OP, these are the types of things women think of ROUTINELY.

              Upthread you said you know your people. Not any more, OP. you do not know your people now.

              1. OP*

                I disagree. Had a great brainstorming session with “cart girl” yesterday afternoon. I would say I know her quite well, she is very comfortable in her position, honest and blunt, and not “trying to protect her career.” We have some good ideas coming together.

            2. OP*

              I was joking, mostly because she got roasted in the comments and attacked for even suggesting it. I in no way feel like she is less of a woman.

              There have been a lot of lose/lose scenarios in the comments. Anything around cart girl was one.

    4. Jennifer*

      I don’t think that’s a good suggestion. Only one guy out of the majority doesn’t want to play golf, but ALL the women don’t want to play. Excluding non-golfers IS excluding the women and saying it’s excluding non-golfers is just a clever way of phrasing it. Building the event around golf is a mistake.

      Maybe have the event at a resort where there are many activities for people to choose from, and have everyone get together for networking dinners or other inclusive activities.

      The bottom line is none of these men is entitled to a free golfing trip and they can golf on their own time. There’s no sense in getting mad about missing out on a trip when 1. you weren’t entitled to in the first place and 2. you are probably going to get to go on another free trip in place of it. Talk about first world problems. If they think this is tough, they should try being a woman or minority in a workplace like this for decades.

    5. Yorick*

      A paid day off and a nice dinner is not actually equivalent to a full weekend trip that includes valuable networking with top management. It also is likely to make top management think of you as “not a team player” or “a poor culture fit.”

    6. Aggretsuko*

      Yeah, there’s no “make everyone happy” option when you take away the perk, even if it’s something you need to do (also see: dog office and allergies). At least some of the population will be mad and resentful. Yay. Not. However, I assume we wouldn’t have this question if the three women liked golf.

    7. Phoenix*

      The fact that it will cause resentment if removed is part of the problem, though. That’s part of how these systems of exclusion continue to cause problems – the people historically excluded bear the brunt of the resentment when the systems are dismantled. This is not a reason not to do the work; it’s something to be aware of while doing the work, but not something that should stop you.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah. Men with nudie calendars up at work resented being told they had to take those down too, and that wasn’t reason not to do it.

        1. Phoenix*

          Exactly. That’s why I thought your advice was particularly spot on when you suggested that OP should do some groundwork to figure out what other activities *everyone* on the team might like better – that framing helps take the focus off the women and puts it onto the team’s needs as a whole.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I am sorry but displays of resentment are what write ups are for.

        A manager can work with a person, talk them through things, help them to understand and so on.
        IF the attitude persists and the attitude is OBSERVABLE, then a much more serious talk, perhaps documented, needs to occur.

        Management controlled by fear is NOT management.

        And honestly,if some of these folks are so locked into their sexism then maybe it is time to part company.

    8. fposte*

      I don’t hold it against somebody who likes golf for being disappointed if his workplace perk is taken away. He gets to like golf. But I think management is *huge* here in how a shift like this is handled. It can be anything from “Due to complaints, we are no longer having our golf outing” to “Hey, we’re gotten a little slack in some of our practices and it’s time we polished ourselves up and become more forward thinking. Let’s all be part of being the best 21st century widget sales force we can be; we’ll be meeting with staff to see if they have other ideas about our future readiness.” Those are going to elicit very different reactions.

      (I like your proposal in theory, but if it ends up with the golf course being all men and all the women not on the golf course, it’s blurring but not eliminating the problem of making the women ancillary.)

      1. Jennifer*

        Yeah, frame it as getting to do more fun activities and try new things as opposed to the ladies complained so we don’t get to golf anymore. And again, THEY CAN STILL GOLF. Just like the AAM example of the nudie photos, you can put a million of them up in your house if it makes you happy. Just keep it out of work.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          If OP’s right, they’ll still get invited to plenty of charity / etc golf rounds. Losing three free rounds – meh.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup – they still get to golf on company time, so why is it oh so important to cling to this one day? I just can’t.

      2. Half-Caf Latte*

        so much yes. if you tell people “we are taking away the fun because of the ladies,” now you have pissed people who no longer feel like they’re getting their fun, and pissed people who feel blamed for being the killjoys.

    9. Gaia*

      Yes, some women golf. But these women, and all of the women on this team (and that is the key part here!) do not. As an employer, it is the OP’s job to ensure the men who are resentful (WHAT!) do not then exclude and discriminate against the women because the company decided to change the event in a way that was not gendered.

      And sure, some men also may not want to golf. But it is *some* men, not all the men. Just like if it was *some* of the women and not *all* of the women, it would be different.

    10. MuseumChick*

      I have to disagree with this reasoning. “It will make the men unhappy” is not reason to keep this going. There are a lot of activities that there “normal” decades ago that today we recognize are super problematic and need to stop. The best course of action IMO would to be continue the weekend, but with LOTS of different actives, one of which *might* be a round of golf.

    11. bloody mary*

      Stopping a bad practice does not take anything away from the men who have already profited off of years of this tradition in the past, it just prevents the company from taking anything from the women in the future.

    12. another scientist*

      I get where you are coming from. The women in question are choosing not to play, but they could if they wanted. So you argue that it’s their choice. But an employer has a legal responsibility to make rewards and networking opportunities accessible, without excluding whole groups of employees. Exclusion could happen through intent (probably not the case here) or as a byproduct (it just so happens that none of the women want to come). It doesn’t matter which it is, the result is still exclusion.

    13. MeepMeep*

      Yeah, I agree. As a woman who did actually work in a male dominated industry for a while, you really do NOT want to be the one who took away the golf trips from everyone else. That’s a good way to get everyone to hate you.

      It doesn’t sound like the golfers in the office are all that good or all that exclusionary of bad players. If I worked in that office, I’d come along and just tag along and try to play, or ride along in the cart and make small talk, or just generally tag along and be there and show that I’m just one of the team.

      If this were a trip to a strip club or something, I’d see where Alison’s reaction was justified, but golf? It’s just a game. You don’t use your genitalia to play it. A woman can play it just as well as a man can.

    14. Starbuck*

      We can’t end sexism if men refuse to ever change. It’s not women’s responsibility to fit in to a patriarchal system. Men need to fix it. If that means giving up unearned, unequal, sexist advantages? Then that’s what has to happen. These women’s careers are more important than any man’s feelings.

      Leaving golf as an option that people can opt in/out of isn’t going to solve the problem of the sexist segregation; we both know that many men (maybe not all) will choose to go, and likely no women, since they have so few and none golf.

  20. nothanks*

    what about….. mini golf? i’m only half joking. i’d never go on a golf trip but a boozy mini golf outing would be way more fun imo.

    1. SKA*

      I thought the same thing, honestly. My company has an annual golf outing (one of several optional weekday afternoon activities throughout the year, that most of the women attend as well). I’ve never been interested, but I would absolutely participate in mini-golf.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      I thought this too! However, I am bad enough at mini-golf to accidentally hit people with my club, so…

      1. Elemeno P.*

        Hitting someone with the club sounds like a beloved story to be told for years to come!

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Yes, but I dunno if that’s a story I’d want going around at me at work in a male-dominated industry and hit a dude there.

          Mostly I just accidentally hit my mom while bored and twirling around with the club. She was unthrilled.

          One year we went mini-golfing on my birthday and I sucked rancid donkey balls the entire 18 holes…and then somehow managed to nail the 19th hole to win the free game. Go figure.

    3. Elemeno P.*

      This was also my thought. I have zero interest in golf but 10000% interest in mini golf. Way easier for people of most physical abilities, silly-looking locations, doesn’t take all day, great for friendly competition, and is somehow even more fun if you’re terrible at it.

    4. Commenter*

      I worked in an office where the partners all golfed. They asked if I played and I said yes, but I always have trouble with the windmill. No one laughed.

    5. OP*

      Something like Top Golf seems like a better alternative. Less serious, more bonding, easier for the non golfers.

  21. Lepidoptera*

    An avid golfer VP at my work mentioned this week that he’s had four cancerous growths removed from his nose and scalp in the past five years. I am almost transparent, and have no interest in bursting into flames while riding around on a high-maintenance lawn.

    So, when considering inclusive alternatives, please offer a UV-friendly option.

      1. OP*

        Most of the beach courses use saltwater grasses, and water with brackish water straight from tidal pools around the course. So, I don’t know much about the total impact of golf on environmentalism, but at least where we go I doubt it is bad at all.

    2. emmelemm*

      Yeah, I’m pretty easy-going about “sometimes going to a group activity where I don’t actually do the activity but sit around and watch my (friends/coworkers) do the activity”. NOT that I’m in ANY WAY endorsing that the women should go along/sit in the cart/etc. – in this WORK context, they absolutely shouldn’t.

      But as to my first sentence: if this were some other activity I didn’t especially like, I’d still consider going along/get along. However, I am very, very pale, and I would under no circumstances spend the better part of a day on a golf course, even with a hat and copious sunscreen.

  22. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    At my former company, we did golf outings all. the. time. I HATED it. But, I went because I recognized the unwritten ramifications of not going. If someone had offered a separate, excluded trip or being a cart girl, I’d have been seriously tempted to whack them with a nine iron.

    I don’t know that there’s one event that will please everyone. But, for us, the event that went over the best was when we had a catered BBQ at a local park and got the rest of the afternoon off on a Friday.

    1. MindOverMoneyChick*

      My company had a lot of “mandatory fun” events. We did BBQ at a park too and it was the most favored. Of course it also involved softball, and tug of war and a hula hoop contest, but you didn’t have to do this things. You could watch, eat, drink and cheer people on.

      1. NotMyRealName*

        Our company did a picnic last year. Partially catered, main course. Each department had a responsibility for some aspect, office departments covered part of the menu (paid by the company), production departments created games for a company “Olympics.” The company president was coerced into competing in all events and lost most of them handily.

  23. AnonACanada*

    The small company I work for has a yearly trip to a large provincial park a few hours away from where we all live. There are plenty of activities that anyone can opt in or out for (horseback riding, zip lining course, wall climbing, hiking, star gazing, museum tour, and yes: golf), or they can stay at the cabin and enjoy the hammock, read, paint, whatever suits them. Plenty of options. It’s a weekend everyone really looks forward to. No pressure to join any activity and groups are rarely only one gender. If you could move your trip to a State/National/Provincial park and rent a cabin or cabins there you would most likely still be able to golf and there should be plenty of activity choices for everyone.

    1. Roscoe*

      I think people would stilll have a problem with that honestly, because if the guys all happened to choose the same activities, then you are back at square 1. Like, if there are 15 people, and only 3 are women, its pretty likely that there will be some events that just happen to have all guys there. Like if 3 guys chose to go zip lining, well now people would say that the zip lining is exclusionary. I don’t agree with that, but I can see people making the argument.

      1. Yorick*

        Small groups choosing different stuff, with your example of 3 men and no women zip lining, would be fine. But it may happen that it still ends up being 10-12 men golfing, with the 3 women doing something else (maybe joined by a man or two). That is the same problem as now.

      2. AnonACanada*

        I feel like at that point people would be complaining for the sake of complaining.

        On our last trip all of the men wanted to golf and all of the women wanted to go horseback riding, so we planned those activities for the same time. Everyone had fun and we all met up after.

        1. LadyofLasers*

          How many women were there compared to the men though? I could see that working better if there was more equal demographics to begin with.

          1. AnonACanada*

            There are 5 men and 3 women. I should add that I’m one of the women. One of the reasons I love this trip is that I don’t HAVE TO golf or have to do anything that doesn’t interest me, but I can do things that do interest me with people who share my interests.

            1. LadyofLasers*

              I totally get that, and you should enjoy that trip, it sounds awesome! I’m just saying in the OP’s scenario, the situation is a little more loaded because they haven’t had women in the past, and now they have a (legally protected) minority who can’t participate in this bonding activity in the same as the old boys club. I think it’s really important for this company to break old patterns and make the women feel included.

              This hits me really hard because I’m in a heavily male dominated field. It sucks when you feel like you’re never quite part of the group.

              1. AnonACanada*

                Thanks! I will!

                I agree that OP’s situation is more loaded and that they need to break the cycle.

                I’m sorry you’re going through that in your field. I hope things get much better for you!

            2. emmelemm*

              But were all the men who golfed the higher-ups, and the women not? Then you’re still missing out on higher-ups time.

              1. AnonACanada*

                It really depends on how things are handled. There are ways to make sure that everyone gets roughly even networking time, though not necessarily all at once.

                I really like The suggestion Green made below. It puts more of the onus on the bosses to make sure that the staff has options and equal opportunities.

                I also like how our boss handled things: booking golf for 9 holes early in the morning on one day only. Not a whole weekend of only one activity.

        2. Gaia*

          I don’t agree. You still end up in a situation where all the women are excluded from the networking events (possibly even still golf!) with the managers. It is still a problem if it still ends up gendered.

          1. AnonACanada*

            I don’t think there’s one perfect trip that will be what everyone wants to do together. If they want to ensure that everyone is included while making sure no one is doing something that doesn’t interest them then just give them the money & time off & scrap the trip all together. But with a trip like this there are options for everyone, not just golf.

            1. Gaia*

              There doesn’t need to be one perfect trip that everyone enjoys. That isn’t the goal. There needs to be a trip where people of all genders are equally included. If this group includes golf it will still be all men golfing and all women not golfing. That is still a problem.

              If they did…I don’t know maybe kite making… they may get 10 guys making kites, 1 woman making a kite and 4 guys and 2 women off rolling down hills or something. Managers might be mixed between the two groups. That would be fine. But if it is all women making kites with the entire management team and all the men are over in the meadows with no networking access to managers it is STILL a problem.

              It doesn’t matter how you shake it, if one entire gender is excluded from a networking opportunity with management you are discriminating based on sex and you have a problem.

              1. fposte*

                I think, though, it’s good to be realistic that you can’t achieve everything desirable with this trip. The opportunity for access to the higher-ups is going to be lessened considerably if people are in small groups and doing different activities, and if that’s been a big reason for participation–which it may well have been–the business needs to consider whether this new event can provide different but still substantial benefits. (Still preferable to discriminatory exclusion from that access benefit, though.)

                1. Gaia*

                  Fully agree. This isn’t going to change with one trip but they can definitely do much, much better than completely excluding an entire gender.

              2. AnonACanada*

                They shouldn’t be doing only one main activity for the entire trip anyway, that defeats the purpose of a trip like this.

                Our boss only books 9 holes instead of the full 18. He also books it for early morning to take away less time from the day, and only on one day. Golf shouldn’t be the main focus of the trip, especially with so many activities to choose from. No one activity should be the main activity.

            2. Ethyl*

              Right, which is why the solution isn’t “a different type of trip” but instead “restructuring bonuses and compensation.”

              1. AnonACanada*

                I agree that this is probably the best outcome, but I feel bad that everyone might miss out on something they enjoy because they can’t find a better, more inclusive way of doing things.

      3. Jennifer*

        That’s not the same. 3 guys ziplining is just 3 guys happening to go ziplining. It’s not ALL the men. I do think that all the men would probably go golfing and you’d end up at square 1 because the women aren’t getting the face time with the managers.

      4. OP*

        If we did a trip like that, I can pretty much guarantee all the men would pick golf over options like horseback riding, zip lining, etc.

        That’s the rub.

        2. Ethyl*

          Oh well then I guess you should just keep doing what you’re doing now and hope the “girls” ::spits:: figure out how to cope with being excluded, made “cart girls,” or sent shopping.

          OP, I’ve read a lot of your comments today and — look, there’s this thing called “the first rule of holes,” maybe you can look it up.

      5. tamarack and fireweed*

        Well, it’s easier to manage. Especially if the activities are just 2-3h or whatever, and there is ample mixing opportunity around meals for example.

    2. Elemeno P.*

      This sounds really nice. I can imagine everyone talking about their different activities at a group dinner and really bonding while having different interests.

    3. Green*

      I think the way to make different activities a workable solution is to take the three key leaders and divide them up, so you have groups of about 4-5 people.

      Golfing with CFO Bill
      Vineyard tour and fancy lunch with CEO Mark
      Picnic, Nature walk through local preserve and boating with Sales EVP Greg

      People will then sort themselves balancing two competing things — what they actually want to do and who they want to get to know better, and each group will get to know one of the company leaders together in a small group. And then you have a big group dinner.

        1. Green*

          I think it’s probably the option that most preserves the thing other people enjoyed while offering more inclusive options that don’t divide along gender lines or require people to miss out on the networking aspect. (A lot of guys may pick winery + lunch or boating/nature walk over golf as well!) If golf is an exciting reward for you, it lets you pick golf. There are a lot of other activities people may enjoy, so offering choices increases the likelihood someone will find one that actually is a “reward” for them. And then everyone gets small group social networking time with a senior leader. (I’d specifically have the CEO or most important decisionmaker *not* do golf in being deliberate about those opportunities.)

  24. CatCat*

    Agree that it sounds like the trip needs to change. You could start doing different locations every year. That would provide opportunities for varied activities. Also, I think you have to be prepared to pre-emptively address a scenario where the golf guys to try and bail on whatever activities are organized and just golf instead.

  25. Another Allison*

    If its a weekend getaway for the sales team , and you want to keep doing the trip I think you could do that if you had the sales team pick two things they would all enjoy doing and make it part of their sales goal if we hit sales goal A we all go do this option, if we hit sales goal B we all go do this option. Not only does the sales team actually get to pick something they would all enjoy doing but it would motivate the team to hit the higher goal.

  26. Anonymouse*

    I’m a woman who’s tried golfing to be around managers for that “bonding” experience a couple of times – and I’d be thrilled to never have to do it again. I hate sitting around in the sun in environmentally horrendous golf courses for HOURS just to get the opportunity to maybe be a part of the right conversation. It sucked every time, I have no interest in golfing, or learning golf, or watching golf.

    If I were part of this company and the words “cart girl” or “money for women to go shopping” came up, I’d be looking for the door pretty quickly. That’s not how you create a diverse, inclusive workforce – you need to adapt to new realities if you want to have the best employees.

  27. nnn*

    While you’re rethinking the trip, this is a good opportunity to also examine it from an accessibility perspective.

    This includes physical accessibility (people with mobility issues, health issues, etc.), but also barriers to entry. Does the activity need specific clothes or equipment that people might not already own? Or can they just show up in as-is?

    Throwing out an idea for brainstorming: can you get a box at a sporting event? Even if not everyone is into the sport, it can still be fun – there’s good food and drink, you can just hang out, no skills or active participation is required. (And in terms of interpersonal dynamics, any “OMG, women ruining our manly activities” resentment might be mitigated because it’s still luxury sports)

    1. CR*

      That’s a really good point. I don’t have golf clothes or shoes and I would resent being forced to buy some for a mandatory work activity.

    3. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Excellent point, especially regarding potential health barriers.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      This is a great point. The ‘no skills or active participation needed’ makes an ENORMOUS difference. My team is talking about going to a baseball game as a team outing — I don’t care about baseball, but I’m happy to go along for the chance to interact outside of work with my teammates and my boss. I don’t need to know anything about the game or have any athletic ability!

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This is what we do. When I joined my company I was the first woman on the executive team. They had a tradition of taking half a day to go to baseball game and I joined them. I enjoy baseball, but it’s not about the sports– it’s about hanging out, having a beer and/or a hot dog and just relaxing. A box would be even better.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        My old company regularly took us to sporting events – if they didn’t also regularly have us in the company box or in a suite with catering, I would have never shown up.

    6. Semprini!*

      You know, if you are worried about eliminating golf having fall-out for female/non-golfing employees, you might even be able to do the sporting event thing without even mentioning that or why you’re eliminating golf. You could present it as “For this year’s outing we have a special treat! We’ve managed to secure an executive box for the sportsball playoffs! Sports, sports, sports!” No mention of equity or gender dynamics or the fraught history of golf, just a sports-related outing.

      Then once you’ve broken the golf cycle, you can ask everyone for input/ideas/special requests when you’re planning the next year’s outing.

  28. Delta Delta*

    I appreciate that OP recognizes the issue and is asking for guidance on how to fix the problem.

    I sort of reflexively said “noooooooo!” at the suggestion to give women cash.

    Maybe tell everyone this is going to get changed in the years ahead and find out some suggestions from everyone that they’d like. And also, there’s no reason to get away from golf entirely if people like it; maybe give people the option to take the day during the big tournament to volunteer as hole Marshalls, etc.

    1. LadyofLasers*

      I could feel the good intentions radiating from this letter, but yeah the actual suggestions made me cringe so hard! If my work offered me money in lieu of a group activity that most other people were going to I would feel like such an outsider.

      1. OP*

        It will make me feel better for you to know that the posted suggestions (especially cart girl) were not necessarily mine. :)

        1. LadyofLasers*

          That’s good to know! Honestly, it sounds like there’s a little bit of an echo chamber at your work, and I think it speaks well of you that you want to seek outside opinions and views.

          1. OP*

            Thank you. Lots of very long term employees nearing retirement. More dramatic change will follow.

      2. another scientist*

        And: even if I was totally into my companies’ annual networking event, if they offered a chunk of money instead of an activity, I might think twice about the activity, even though I’ve participated for years to that point.

  29. boredatwork*

    I don’t see golf as inherently sexist, but more of a social business skill. My professional fraternity had a golf club, where it was encouraged to learn how to play, once a year they brought in a pro, and the better golfers would help the weaker ones on the range whenever we had an event.

    I am female, I suck a golf, I’ve tried to learn. I do enjoy attending the golf, hitting my ball very badly, and having drinks. Golf courses are usually very pretty, most places have clubs you can rent.

    My suggestions to OP –
    1) Hire a pro for a quick, this how how to golf lesson, so the non-golfers can hit a ball
    2) Distribute the teams fairly – no power 4’s
    3) Be kind about people learning, or who really just want to drive the cart

    If after this year, it goes poorly, you can revisit the activity. One company I worked for gave the option of the golf or a spa credit. Obviously open to either gender. It was a big hit and everyone met up afterward for a group lunch.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      One company I worked for gave the option of the golf or a spa credit.

      Yes, I am certain that men felt totally comfortable opting for the spa credit and those who elected the spa didn’t miss out on any important networking opportunities on the golf course.

      1. boredatwork*

        It was a very large organization – with as many female owners as male (top boss was female). So it was actually a fair split of “golf networking” Vs spa “networking”

        1. Close Bracket*

          So as many men went to the spa as women, and as many women went golfing as men?

          Or as many women went to the spa as men went golfing?

          1. boredatwork*

            I went golfing, I enjoy being outside. From what I’ve heard there was a lot of time for sitting around and chatting in the common areas, sauna, other spa like places.

        2. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

          Except that you’re not “networking” at a spa. It’s a place to relax and get pampered, not chat with your colleagues.

    2. PhillyRedhead*

      Golf isn’t inherently sexist? It’s 2019, and I still need two hands’ worth of fingers to count the golf clubs that prohibit women from joining.

      1. boredatwork*

        I meant in a business activity sense. I don’t consider top golf as an outing any more sexist than taking a cooking class. As the official activity planner, we’ve done both.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Wow. I would encourage you (in your capacity as official activity planner) to reconsider. It’s absolutely sexist, and failing to address it because your business fraternity required you to learn the skill misses a whole slew of structural and social barriers that make golf problematic.

          1. boredatwork*

            I greatly value your opinion, but I’ve never had golf presented to me as a sexist thing. The learning in college was voluntary, and evenly split between men and woman.

            To me it’s just a fun way to get outside and “team” build, same as a ropes course. I’ve always played on teams were every one had a female member.

            Lots of people like golf, it’s a shame that it has a very problematic past.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Business activities that take place at the type of venue where a fair number prohibit a gender from joining aren’t inherently sexist?

      2. OP*

        Those clubs would also prohibit 99.9% of men from joining.

        Not saying that they are right, but picking exclusive private clubs as an example isnt really fair.

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          But they don’t prohibit men from joining.
          They prohibit women from joining, and they prohibit the non-rich from joining.

          That doesn’t mean they don’t discriminate against women. It just means they discriminate against almost everyone, AND against women.

        2. boredatwork*

          OP, thank you for having the courage to write in and try to be as inclusive as possible. For what it’s worth, I have lady parts, I’m no one’s “beer girl”, but I enjoy badly hitting balls and spending time outdoors in the fresh air.

          Since this is apparently more controversial than I thought, maybe have a committee or just rotate the activity every year? We don’t do the same thing every year to keep things fresh and exciting.

          1. OP*

            Thank you. I really appreciate your comment. More controversial than I thought as well!

      3. Hoya Lawya*

        Chiming in here to say I think this point is irrelevant. This is no longer the case with most golf clubs, and the discriminatory clubs that remain come under severe pressure to end bans on women. The vast majority of golf clubs are open to women, and I see no reason to trash the entire sport because of a few misguided exceptions.

    3. Delta Delta*

      I can picture a bunch of confused people when a bunch of men decide to take the spa credit instead. Because really, probably many of them would love a massage or a pedicure. (I speak from experience; I took my husband for a mani/pedi recently and all he can talk about is when he’s getting another one.)

    4. Missy*

      Some of the social business skills at places I’ve worked would have included playing poker and knowing strip club etiquette. There are a lot of things that women have had to learn to get along with the business culture that would not happen if workplace culture had been built to be inclusive.

      Honestly, all of the business owners I know under 40 would be much more comfortable with business during a Destiny Raid than on a golf course. I don’t see many people suggesting video game lessons become a business skill.

      1. OP*

        I hate how many comments have compared the golf culture to strip club culture. I see them as opposites. Golf is professional, classy, all about etiquette and manners.

        We would NEVER do anything like go to a strip club, and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one outside of work. I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Hooters for that matter.

  30. Alexis Rose*

    I want to thank OP for recognizing that this is an issue and seeking some advice on how to approach it. This is what positive change looks like!

  31. Angelinha*

    For this year at least, what about a golf day and picnic? People who want to golf can go golf, and people who don’t want to can sit and drink and play lawn games. I worked at a nonprofit with a charity golf tournament each year. It was a little different because as staff we weren’t invited to golf, but after doing whatever your volunteer duty was, you got to sit around and eat hot dogs and play frisbee or whatever. If you make it more of a field day than a golf day it will probably be more inclusive and then you can look at what you want to do in the future if people aren’t excited by the field day option. (And yes, no matter what this should be voluntary to everyone, either attend or get the day off free!)

    1. Yorick*

      This is a good idea. My graduate department has a golf tournament followed by a barbeque.

    2. Gaia*

      And if you end up with all the women still skipping golf and all the men golfing? You have, essentially, the same issue.

      1. Yorick*

        But it could be better if the picnic or whatever is the main activity and some golf happens during it. Especially if it’s too late to totally veto golf.

  32. Heidi*

    I would favor offering cash + day off to everyone and canceling the work-sponsored golf. People who want to golf can organize it outside of work if they want to. It’s possible that people went on this trip in the past because it was mandatory and had a nice time regardless, but if money and freedom from work are offered as an alternative, the enthusiasm for the golf will dissipate.

    I suspect part of the difficulty here is that the golf weekend makes the bosses feel very, very good about themselves. They get to do a hobby they enjoy while surrounded by others who are luxuriating in their largesse. Powerful reinforcing stuff. Canceling or watering down this event takes this away from them, so OP might need to have something huge to replace it. Like a trip to Disney World huge.

    2. Clisby*

      I hope you don’t really mean Disney World. I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than go to Disney World.

      1. Heidi*

        Of course it doesn’t have to be Disney. I just threw that out there as example of the scale of the event. A dinner isn’t really the same scale as a weekend trip, so the bosses may see that as a rather sad substitute. They need an equally big or even bigger event to replace the golf in their hearts and minds.

        1. Heidi*

          My sister has a theory that bosses don’t like giving money or time off as gifts because it reminds them that people don’t actually love coming to work for them. In contrast, a mandatory golf weekend kind of creates a scenario where people love being “at work.”

          1. Batgirl*

            Ding, ding, ding!
            It’s like the way I sort of pretend to myself that my students love me because they like hanging out in my classroom at break or they ask me for advice. Nope, they’re just aware that adults have power and they’d like some access to that and for me to have their back. When the home bell rings you can’t see them for dust.

  33. A CAD Monkey*

    As someone who was on the excluded end of the “Fun Work Trip” because of gender, it really alienates your workers when they have to work while a majority of the office goes for fun and networking with clients.

  34. Dwight*

    I’m not sure this is as much of a gendered event as you make it seem. There’s entire world professional organizations around women’s golf. It’s pretty sexist to describe golf as a men’s only sport (this isn’t the 1800’s). Golf courses also handicap for women to recognize the difference in physicality (women start further ahead). We play a golf tournament at my company, and it’s about 50/50 men/women. Plus, they play a format where even terrible golfers won’t be affected (best ball). Not everyone will enjoy every activity, but if the majority want to play golf, I’m not sure it’s right to take that away.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’d suggest educating yourself on the deeply entrenched history golf has in sex discrimination in workplaces. It’s a well documented thing, one that we’re not going to re-litigate here.

      1. CR*

        And not just in the workplace – there were golf courses where women weren’t even allowed to be members (black men and Jewish men, too).

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        And not just sex discrimination, but racial/class/religious discrimination. Golf is the epitome of wealthy WASP culture.

    2. ArtK*

      There is a distinct gender skew in golfers. 77.5% male to 22.5% female in one article I read. The fact that golf “accommodates” women is totally beside the point. This activity will *exclude* a great many women and that’s Alison’s point. If you have a networking event that is heavily biased towards one gender, then you have the potential for lawsuits.

    3. Mystery Bookworm*

      Well, there are handfuls of old golf clubs that are still men-only, so it’s not as though people are completely inventing the gendered aspect (not to mention a serious class-based one…it’s not a cheap sport).

      But I agree with you, I think there’s nothing inherently wrong with golf so long as it’s something that’s accessible and enjoyable to the majority of employees.

      I DO think there is something wrong with repeating the same activity year over year if there is a group of employees who don’t or can’t participate, particularly if that group is segrated along the lines of a protected class. It’s good to offer your employees a variety of things for team-building.

    4. Wing Leader*

      The point is that you have to find a work activity that everyone is interested in and can participate in. If the women in OPs office were just as enthused about golf as the men, then a golf trip would be perfectly fine. But…they’re not. And that’s where the problem comes in.

      I realize that there are numerous female golfers around the world, and that’s fine too. No one’s saying that every man in the world loves golf and every woman in the world hates golf. I hate golf, but so does my husband.

      The point boils down to this being a workplace, and you absolutely have to give everyone equal opportunities to network and advance their career. And when you have something like this that is (unintentionally) excluding a group of people of a different gender…well, it looks a lot like discrimination. And that can’t be.

      Look at it this way: Say a high-ranking female executive decided that, a reward for having a great year, the company would be taking all employees to a spa day, complete with manis and pedis, makeovers, and hairstyling. Well…not too many men would be enthused about that (and a lot of women wouldn’t either, but I’m just using a gendered stereotype to make a point).

      1. Dan*

        I live in DC, and Virginia wineries are a traditional “social” activity. Except… I don’t know how much fun they are if you’re a non-drinker. Sure, the grounds can be (and are) beautiful, and its “outdoorsy”, but if one doesn’t drink, I don’t see much of a point.

        In this day, and age, it seems like almost any off-premise work activity is fraught with peril. My company doesn’t do off-premises social events for the workplace at-large, and I’m a-ok with that. I’m especially ok with it, because social activities cannot be considered billable work, so it’s time taken out of your personal time (PTO or non-work time) that you have to deal with.

    5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      I mean, swimming doesn’t intend to be racist, but the social and cultural history of who has had access to the opportunity to learn to swim (and to practice swimming) has deep racial inequalities… many of which were written into law. I wouldn’t recommend a swimming retreat as a “reward” for any business-based group, although a trip to a resort where there’s no mandatory swimming or [gender/race/ability]-dominated swimming would probably be fine.

      Similarly, golf has race, class, ability and gender-driven inequalities, many of which are still legally reinforced through exclusivity in golf clubs (in the organizational sense, not the equipment sense). We can acknowledge women’s leadership and resistance against golf’s massive dude-dom while also acknowledging that golf still has retrenched, inherent inequalities to access that are baked in and that can’t be separated when you opt to golf as a workplace event.

      1. JustaTech*

        Here’s a simple example of a gender-based inequality in golf: often, women are not allowed to wear shorts on the course. Men may wear shorts, but women are expected to wear skirts or dresses. (With built in shorts, please, since you’ve got to bend over to pick up the ball.)

        This is not an item of clothing that most women have in their wardrobe, nor is it necessarily easy to find (as I discovered helping my mom shop for some). So Fred can wear clothes he already owns, but Jane has to go hunt down some $80 skorts.

        1. Dwight*

          I disagree. On a golf course that would care if women wore skorts/dresses, men need to have proper golf shorts, not just any cargo shorts or basketball shorts. You don’t keep those in your wardrobe unless you need them. Plus, if you’re complaining about the cost of appropriate clothing for the golf course, you probably can’t afford the green fees, which for courses that care about the dress code are very very expensive. There are plenty of golf courses that are much cheaper to play at, that won’t bat an eye if you show up with regular athletic wear, as long as you have a collar. If anything, golf is classist, yes, but with the exception of a few golf courses owned by people that won’t let go of old thinking, not sexist.

          1. Hijos de Sanchez*

            This is right. Most courses are ok with a nice polo shirt and slacks, which is basically the same as business casual dress. There are snooty courses out there but that is not the majority of the sport.

        2. OP*

          That is the opposite of my experience. On most formal courses here, men have to wear pants, but women can wear shorts, pants, skirts, whatever. Men have to wear tucked in polo shirts. Women don’t tuck, can wear sleeveless, collarless shirts.

          I guess that is dependent on the course, but generally I have seen more relaxed standards for women.

  35. dealing with dragons*

    I literally cannot play golf due to an injury in my shoulder. I have a labrum tear and even thinking about the motion is making me wince.

    Take gender out of the equation – you have a company doing a golf outing, but only say 60% of the workforce actually ends up going. As a manager is that what you’d want, or do you want to find something that everyone would enjoy? And now put gender back in. Golf is historically an upper-class sport, and definitely geared more towards males. You really can’t ignore this kind of history with the sport.

    Seems a strange hill to die on. The reticence reads like the women are trying to ruin things (and I’m seeing this in other comments, too!) when really change is the nature of time.

    1. Rae*

      As someone with dual labrum tears, my shoulder is burning just thinking of attempting to swing a club. Heck, I’m crippled after about 1 hole in wii golf!

  36. ArtK*

    As a *male* who doesn’t golf, I’d be pretty unhappy about the situation; despite what the culture assumes, golf isn’t universal. I find it to be absolutely ridiculous.
    Adding in the gender skew for golf makes this trip a really bad idea.
    Cue the bro-whining “feminists ruining everything…” when this tradition is changed.

    1. MatKnifeNinja*

      It’s not just bonding with the bro-s, but a weekend away from the partner and kids thing that is the double gross part.

      No golf.
      No escaping for 48/72 hours away from family stuff.

      Oh that screaming Kraken will be glorious.

      They only thing the outing left out is Euchre and Poker night. That is the poor man’s golf outing around here.

  37. LaDeeDa*

    Also– as things do change, you have to be really careful around the messaging. It can’t be “because we now have women on the team and you know how the ladies hate golf…”
    It has to be more along the lines of “as our team grows and changes we want to make sure our annual trip is still meeting the needs of the team”
    If you have a standard destination city I would pick several activities- a boat trip, a tour, a catered BBQ with a band, etc, and let people vote through a Survey Monkey type site. And maybe you do a few things- one round of golf, a catered BBQ, a guided bus tour… In one of our off sites we brought in a company to do a cooking lesson, it was so fun. In one offsite we had a company facilitate an activity where the team built a wheelchair that was then donated to a local veterans associations.

  38. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    It’s my understanding that, to a certain degree, one of the reasons golf has stayed gender segregated is that there are no restrooms on the green, and golfers just relive themselves off to the side along the way. Which while plenty of women are outdoorsy in their personal lives, doing this *at work* would be a problem of disparate impact on women versus men.

    1. Gaia*

      What. The. Even.

      I will admit here I know exactly nothing about golf. Are you telling me that men just pee on the course?!? And that should I find myself on a golf course one day I might just glance over and see a man peeing? Yea, I think I’ll keep avoiding it, thanks.

      1. Dan*

        I wouldn’t go that far. Men have learned to pee outdoors for generations, it’s a normal bodily function for most of us.

        1. Gaia*

          No, it is gross to pee outdoors in public. We aren’t talking about camping in the woods. We’re talking about a golf course with people around.

          Men have done a lot of things for generations that we’ve now decided are unacceptable. I vote peeing outside in public be added to the list.

          1. Dwight*

            It’s actually a lot like camping. You don’t pee on the fairway or green, you go into the woods. There’s usually a heavily wooded on a golf course.

            1. Roscoe*

              Exacatly. I think a lot of the people responding are acting like guys just whip it out at the tee. No, they go into the woods

        2. Close Bracket*

          > It’s a normal bodily function for most of us.

          It’s not the peeing that’s the problem. It’s the “on the golf course” that’s the problem. Public urination is a crime for a reason.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Welp, now you can offer STP funnels for the women as an additional perk!

      /s /s /s /s /s /s

    5. Alucius*

      Well, most courses do have porta-potties or a bathroom or two out on the course, but you’re definitely right about men just walking a bit into the trees and relieving themselves whenever the need strikes.

    7. Dr. Why not*

      Ugh, I didn’t even think of that angle! Wtf? And while drinking… I’m cringing at the thought.

    8. CaliCali*

      While I agree that golf is heavily gendered and problematic as a result, this isn’t really true. I’m a woman who has played golf at several courses and there are restrooms for both men and women as well as porta-potties. They’re not at every hole or anything, but I’ve never experienced THIS as the reason for gender segregation. It’s still just good ol patriarchy.

    9. OP*

      That isn’t true. At least at all of the courses I play. There are restrooms every few holes on the course, even at very inexpensive public courses.

      1. OP*

        I know someone that recently got lyme disease. I could not be more paranoid about ticks right now…

  39. CJ*

    If it’s meant to be a retreat, why not offer 3-4 options to everyone? Pick between golf, a spa day, fishing, or a food walking tour. Spread out the groups with various options so it feels less mandatory and encourage managers to try out something besides golf. At the end of the day, host a group dinner to discuss what everyone did that day and have some group bonding. Or, keep the group together for a class of some type – cooking, paddle boarding, cocktail making. There’s are so many more options beyond golf.

    However, I personally would be most appreciative of getting to keep my weekend to myself and spend time with the people I love outside of work. A nice gift card or bonus cash to do the activities I like on my own time would be the best reward. Obviously there’s no team bonding with that, but that depends on what the real goals of this trip are for your business.

    1. LadyofLasers*

      I would just worry that if golf was one of the options, the majority of the old guard will still go golfing and the same issue comes up for the women.

      1. CJ*

        True, that’s why I would encourage managers to participate in other activities, to be a good example and also to bond more with non-golfers.

  40. Q to the la to the rue*

    When I was in business college 15 years ago there was a program to teach novices how to golf. Anyone could participate but it was geared towards women as the purpose was to level the playing field in regards to business done on a gold course.

    1. Mockingjay*

      But that doesn’t fix the underlying problem: why business is conducted on the golf course in the first place? Isn’t that what the office is for?

      It’s a strange idea that a person has to go to a golf course to network with people she already works with.

      1. Dan*

        Not always. “Wining and dining” (or sports events, golf events, what have you) have been places where business has been conducted for decades. Quite frankly, the easy solution is to have all business conducted on-premises, but I’m curious how practical it is.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Yes, conducted for decades by men.

          In my industry, it is very practical. Business can only be discussed in certain venues due to confidentiality requirements. Networking takes place at industry conferences which all can attend. So yes, you can get the job done without wandering 9 holes.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          This makes me think of the IT Crowd episode where Jen gets the job as Entertainment Director.

          Conducting business on-premises really is the right solution.

        3. OP*

          In my experience business isn’t really conducted on the golf course, or at bars or whatever. It is that relationships evolve there. It is a bonding experience. I have never discussed any business dealings specifically on a golf course.

        1. Mockingjay*

          This is the company sales team, not clients. Logically, the office is where you would be.

        2. Southern Yankee*

          I think there are two competing issues here – should everyone on the sales team golf because of business reasons? And, separately, is golf an appropriate “reward” for said sales team. First, golfing for business reasons – go where your customers are: apparently at golf tournaments. But, are the non-golfers meeting sales targets? If so, then clearly playing golf is not a requirement of job performance and they have found other networking opportunities that work (maybe even picking up clients that also don’t golf!). Second, the reward – non-golfers are not going to perceive a golf only retreat as the same kind of “reward” that a golfer might – and other comments have hit on the idea that not all the golfers might be as keen as you think.

          So, if this is really about “sales people need to golf because reasons”, then you need to really think about that and what is says about your company and your expectations. If it is really about “we want to reward this team because they don’t get a bonus” then think about how to actually reward them while hopefully still providing sufficient networking access to all. Dinner plus bonus check, a non-golf and perhaps non-sports focused activity, rotating each year for variety and more inclusiveness, etc., lots of good suggestions on this thread. I think you are combining “golf is good for client contact and we want to encourage that” with “what can we offer as a reward”. It’s not the same thing, and I think this is essentially what you and your management is tripping up on.

          1. OP*

            Thank you. You are right that there are competing topics here, which can make it more difficult to discuss.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Then everyone should get tennis lessons, volleyball lessons, swimming lessons and so on. Why just give golf lessons and solely placate the customers who golf.

  41. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

    What if they handed out cash to both men and women. I don’t play golf and I wouldn’t mind the cash. I could go shopping. I am sure I can find a sharper image, best buy, or some thing else to occupy my time.

    1. ArtK*

      The point here is the networking. Giving individuals cash doesn’t help with that. The bias in the activity means that women are far more likely than men to be excluded from a critical business/career activity.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Good point. I was just focusing on the gender thing. I wouldn’t really want to just go along and be a “cart-boy” which is what it sounds like some of the men are doing.

      2. une autre Cassandra*

        I feel like some of the weirdness comes from muddying the waters—is Golf Weekend a reward, equivalent to a bonus, or is it an opportunity to network and get face-to-face time with the bosses? They may need to replace Golf Weekend with two things: a bonus, and inclusive opportunities for the sales team to rub elbows with the higher ups. They probably shouldn’t be the same thing.

        1. Southern Yankee*

          I just said essentially the same thing on the previous comment, but you did it much more concisely!

    2. Wing Leader*

      It’s not just the cash though. The men who attend the trip are getting some valuable networking time with the executives and their colleagues, which could easily give them a leg up in the workforce. The female employees should be getting that same opportunity.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, that’s true, and that’s where I think some finesse might be necessary, because it’s going to be hard to create an event that has the same amount of networking opportunity for participants while also including everybody. So it may be that they let go the networking component and go to bonuses, or that they do smaller groups and rearrange people in something like the state park situation above so that it’s not as good a networking opportunity but it’s still in there.

        1. Dan*

          I don’t know that an event can include everybody. I cannot think of a single off-premises that *everybody* would *want* to (or even can) do.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I agree (which is one reason why I’m not a huge fan of this stuff in general), but it’s a completely different (and far bigger) problem when the exclusion is happening along gender lines, as it is here.

          2. fposte*

            Yes, I agree. Ultimately, I think the single-point access-to-the-higher-ups event may not be sustainable in 2019 culture–there’s no way to do it without being exclusionary, and while several smaller occasions may not give employees the same hefty “I impressed J.B. on the 16th hole!” buzz, they’re likely to be better for everybody.

          3. OP*

            That is the problem. We had one… and I am looking for ways to keep it alive or change it into something new. But most of these things are usually a burden when they are meant to be a benefit, so if it isn’t really good I doubt we will continue it.

  42. Stuff*

    Maybe a trip that doesn’t involve golf. Just a retreat to a nice beach. Or still do the same trip but golf is minimized to a 9 hole optional outing and the rest. And brainstorm ahead of time on stuff people want to do. Not everyone has to want to go to every piece but everyone should feel included.

    1. Macarena*

      I don’t think that solves the problem. Not everyone lives near a nice beach and can take time away from their kids. Not everyone can swim and some people are allergic to excessive sun exposure.

  43. Observer*

    In addition to what Allison said, this “Many of our team have young children and the weekend getaway is well received and appreciated,” jumped out at me.

    This is another reason to change things. It’s becoming a lot less acceptable to assume that a guy is going to want to get away for a weekend just because he has kids. That’s a hugely gendered and outdated stereotype.

    1. SaffyTaffy*

      I kept trying to find a different way to read this!!! Oh my god. “Many of our team are Dads, so of course it’s nice that we help them avoid their parenting responsibilities, which of course they hate, because they’re men, and men hate children.”

      1. Delta Delta*

        See, when I read it, I completely read it wrong/made the assumption that the families went so they liked it because it was a weekend away also with family.

        That said, I don’t necessarily think there’s anything wrong with a parent going away for a weekend with other grownups once in a while. When I was a kid each of my parents would go for a friends’ weekend once a year or so, and my bro and I had a fun time having 1:1 time with the parent who stayed home. (Turns out my mom hates cooking and would feed us nothing but cheese and crackers if my dad wasn’t around and it turns out my dad doesn’t actually care if we brush our teeth. but shhhh – don’t tell the other one!) But I never had the sense they were “getting away” from us – I always had the sense they were off to do their own thing.

      2. LaDeeDa*

        And let’s assume all the men have wives at home to take care of their kids. My brother is a single dad, 3 of our close friends are single dads— all 4 of them are the sole caregiver, the mothers are not in the picture at all. 2 of them have no family to help with caring for the kids. I live in the same area as my brother and would happily watch his son…. but until I moved back to the US a few years ago, he would have had a hard time finding anyone to leave his son with for a weekend.
        But ya know, men are never the primary caretaker. *rolls eyes*

        1. OP*

          Single Dad went on our last trip, found care for his daughter, and had a ball and much needed time away. Needed it more than the dual parents I am sure.

          I am trying to be sensitive to the gendered issue at hand, I don’t think this is one. Most couples have reasons at times for a getaway without a spouse. Maybe a wedding, bachelor party… work trip. I dont see that as being a gendered issue.

          1. Data Analyst*

            But even just this example highlights an imbalance – he had to pay for childcare to attend the event, i.e. there was additional cost for him to attend that others without young children or who had a partner willing to do solo childcare for the weekend didn’t have (setting aside the non monetary cost of said solo childcare for a moment).
            It gets awkward when employees incur costs to attend something that is ostensibly a reward, especially when those costs aren’t equal across the board.

          2. DerJungerLudendorff*

            But it is, because childcare and marriage are still deeply gendered issues in our society.

            Good for that guy that he got some much-needed time off, but he still had to find someone to care for his child during that time. And unless your company provides free and competent childcare, or includes the whole family in this trip, then you’re de facto ordering your employees to find some kind of childcare themselves.
            Which probably means paying for a professional carer (if the children will even permit that), or throwing the burden on the rest of the family. And since your sales team is all men, that usually means throwing it on their wives.

          3. Yorick*

            This is a huge gendered issue. In many couples, even now in 2019, women do way more childcare than men. A man will find it easier to go on a work trip and leave the kids with the wife. A mother of young kids may not be able to leave her kids at home with the dad (and is more likely to be a single parent, too). So the women in your company might all seem to “opt out,” but not because they actually didn’t want to have that time with coworkers and management.

          4. Not A Manager*

            Hey, I really appreciate that you’re trying to be sensitive to gender issues here. I do think it would be great to make room for, say, power imbalance issues as well.

            “Single Dad went on our last trip, found care for his daughter, and had a ball and much needed time away. Needed it more than the dual parents I am sure.”

            Either Single Dad paid for child care, or he used up family/social capital to get child care. Assuming that he is not Made Of Money and/or Made Of Social Capital, this golf weekend used up a resource (child care) that he might really have preferred to spend in another way.

            It’s possible that Single Dad DID have a great time with much-needed time away, but it’s ALSO possible that Single Dad would have preferred to use up his child care chit for, say, a date weekend with a special person, or a weekend away all by himself, rather than having to use it to go on this business outing.

            What people are saying about the Spouse Left At Home or Lining Up Childcare is just that these things are *costly* in some way. It’s costly to leave your spouse alone with the kids, it’s costly to leave your spouse alone for the weekend without kids, it’s costly to make someone line up non-spouse childcare. It’s possible that your employees and their at-home-for-the-weekend families might really prefer to decide on their own how to spend their family’s non-monetary resources.

            1. OP*

              I get this, I get what you are saying. Thank you for saying it.

              But it is also the case that in a small office environment, people are not anonymous, people know each others spouses and their kids and what they do and what they like doing. We all know each other quite well. Kids the same age etc. So I isn’t that we are in uncharted waters, putting unknown stress on wives across the state. But yes you are right.

    2. OP*

      I did not mean that the men only would appreciate a weekend away from kids, the one woman with children was thrilled by the idea.

      I get that there are gender issues at play, which is why I wrote the letter. But needing time away isnt gender exclusive and I didn’t mean for it to be.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Needing time away is a vacation, for which an employee should use PTO.

        This weekend golf outing is a business function – an award/compensation for a job well done by the Sales Team. The award needs to be structured so it is applied to each member of the team. AAM readers have provided several excellent inclusive suggestions: bonuses, dinner, day off.

      2. Observer*

        This is one of those places where intent is not as important as effect. The reality is that time off from the family IS highly gendered.

        It’s also the case that you are going to be putting any guy who doesn’t have a willing spouse at a severe disadvantage. Typically, people who have this issue do NOT especially appreciate “the chance” to be pressured into finding care for their child(ren) to spend an entire weekend away – it’s HARD. In other words, your assumption that people with children actually appreciate “the chance” to escape their kids is *at best* outdated.

        And, to top it off, it’s likely to get you in trouble if you operate in an area when discrimination based on family status is illegal.

      3. Yorick*

        This sentiment is based on the old idea that men are breadwinners and women are homemakers and it isn’t much of a burden on the family for men to be gone for a while.

        Nowadays, it isn’t true – men are doing more family work, so the men being gone for the weekend might put pressure on their family.

        But women still do more family work, so this is an even bigger problem for the women on your team.

      4. Smuckers*

        For me, personally, I have a certain amount of “Ok honey, see you when you get back” points with my husband. I would not want to use those points on mandatory fun. I’d rather be with my family, or doing an activity that I picked myself.

      5. Batgirl*

        I do believe you, when you say that line was sparked by a woman’s comment, and in your good intentions to genuinely give people a break…but OP your blind spot is huge!

        It’s almost like you’ve never met a woman who does more childcare than her husband because he outearns her, so his job “makes more sense”. Or one who tells you she has to cope with the kids alone because “Jack has to go away with the boss to get his promotion. It’s not a real vacation!”Or like you’ve never spoken to those female parents who get home late because of meetings led by men who have all the time in the world because their wife does everything. Parents going on fun work trips for their careers are totally different to parents tag teaming each other voluntarily.

        Modern workplaces assume that people have families old and young that they’re equally responsible for and that there’s not always going to be someone there to pick up the slack, unpaid. I’m glad your single dad had that support network; but what if he didn’t?

      6. Not So NewReader*

        The other half of the story is while everyone can say they need time away, they may not be able to afford it. And “afford” is not just about money. Time may be what is limited and precious. Other issues come to mind where a person would need time away and it’s just not doable OR they go and it’s a huge hardship.

        I know you want to trust people and take them at their word. I know you feel confident in knowing your people. I also know that people’s lives change and something they said last month or last year suddenly can get reversed.

      7. Quandong*

        You seem to be conflating voluntary time away i.e. a holiday, with this work-related trip. For you and ‘the boys’ it may be one and the same! But for many people, including parents whether single or coupled, whatever sex: this trip is a work obligation, it is not the same as a vacation.

  44. Delphine*

    Retreats that revolve around eating are usually a safe bet. We have a company dinner and a company BBQ.

  45. Sara without an H*

    Hello, OP — I haven’t read each and every comment on your post, so I may be repeating a point that’s already been made. But here goes:

    Your intentions are good. We all know what’s paved with good intentions…

    You say this is a “much appreciated day off and benefit.” How do you know? Why are people referring to this “jokingly” as a “mandatory trip”? Trust me, “jokes” of this kind mean that not everybody appreciates giving up their weekend to schmooze the higher ups on the golf course. A quick tour of the AAM archives will turn up digital reams of letters from people who hate this kind of activity, but can’t say so because their workplace culture is so invested in it.

    If you must team build (and that’s what this is), it’s time to brainstorm some activities that would be more inclusive AND don’t eat into your employees weekends — which they may actually prefer to spend golfing with their own friends, playing with their kids, puttering around the house, or vegging out on the couch with Netflix and cold jug wine.

    And you might reconsider the no bonuses for sales staff rule.

    1. OP*

      What I am basing my confidence on is that the office is buzzing with questions about if we are going this year, when, where, etc, and the trip is 6 months away. Our employees get wrapped up in making the teams, trash talk between branches, side bets. It is a fun trip, it is fun to get the branches together, go out to some nice meals together etc.

      We used to do some events, lake days, cookouts, christmas parties…. that you could just tell had lost their luster.

      1. DerJungerLudendorff*

        Even then, it doesn’t mean the entire team is jumping with enthusiasm for every part of the trip.
        Is everyone eager to go, or is it only a vocal part of the team? It’s fairly easy for someone to fake a certain level of enthusiasm, and let the real enthusiasts drive the conversation.
        And is everyone happy with a whole weekend, or would some people rather have a single day, or maybe an afternoon? Are their families happy with them leaving for a whole weekend on a trip?

        Is it clear that this trip can be discussed and altered at all? Because if my whole team looks really enthusiastic about a well-established annual trip six months from now, I probably wouldn’t even bother to try and change it. That’s just going to create a lot of bad blood, and the trip is so ingrained in the culture that objections from a single employee won’t change anything regardless.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        People will put up with this stuff for a while and try to make the best of it. But a surprising number of people actually do not want this stuff. What appears to be camaraderie can be actually a bunch of knotted stomachs all standing in one room.

  46. Liv Jong*

    Let’s not forget that the word golf was originally an acronym for
    Gentleman
    Only
    Ladies
    Forbidden

    The LW said that golf is part of the business culture and these are the first women hired. It sounds like the is a huge good ole boys club culture that will have to evolve a whole lot more than they have to shake the sexist atmosphere.

    1. fposte*

      That’s a later joke, not the actual etymology, but the fact that it was a known joke is, I agree, a signal of some of this activity’s thorny history.

    2. Arctic*

      The word golf comes from a word for stick/club. And it originally was very open to both genders (Mary Queen of Scots helped popularize the game both in Scotland and France.)

    3. OP*

      Not first women hired. First women in recent years on the sales team. In the past, distant past, we had women on the sales team and I don’t think anyone asked this question.

      1. DerJungerLudendorff*

        OP, your team consists of 10-15 people. And you haven’t hired any women since the “distant past”. And before that it sounds like it was mostly men too. Between the team size and the turnover, that’s probably several dozen people, even accounting for a couple of long-timers.

        Your team has had that many hires, and none of them are women. Who are 50% of the entire human race, and should be a sizable part of your hiring pool. That is not a coincidence. Something is actively driving them away from your team before they’re even hired, and from your letter it seems likely the team culture is a major factor in that.

        1. OP*

          Last 2 years we have only hired women on the team. We have very low turnover and have hired less than a half dozen people on the team in the last decade so…. 50% hire rate in the last decade were women!

          It appears to be an industry thing I cant explain. Our female reps are the only ones in our two cities that I am aware of. Not sure why, I am told it has always been this way. Most of the buyers seem to be women.

          1. fposte*

            You’re being very reflective in reading the comments, and I bet some of them will fill in the picture of why it might have always been this way.

  47. Lime Lehmer*

    In the 90’s I used to work for a female attorney.
    For “Secretary’s Day, she took the admins, both female, shoe shopping.
    Fun, but clearly sexist.

    1. WellRed*

      It’s not only sexist, it feels a bit…let me buy you work peasants some nice shoes.

    2. OP*

      With two people it seems like you would have a good sense of what their mutual interests were. Don’t see why it would be sexist if they were both into shoe shopping.

  48. Princess prissypants*

    As a woman, a mom, a full-time employee, a avid non-golfer, and a major introvert – everything about this trip screams “We’re inviting you because we have to, not because we want to” and makes me want to scream “hell no” and run as far away as possible.

    I have to PAY for childcare to go on this golf trip where my presence is only tolerated and now I’m expected to work for free (wait on) my colleagues just because I’m a woman??

    This is a lawsuit waiting to happen, LW.

    Instead, give me a check equivalent to the cost of the trip for one person, including the cost of requiring me to cover childcare, and I will quietly and solitarily put myself up in a nice hotel with a stack of books, bottles of wine, room service, and no other humans within sight.

    jeez.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      Yeah, definitely “no girl cooties allowed, we don’t want you vibes” is what I’m thinking, though I hope the OP isn’t feeling that way. This system was clearly only designed for men to go to this, sigh.

      1. OP*

        No, definitely not. Was looking for a way to make it more inclusive, not push them away. Have learned a lot from Allisons advice and the comments.

        Thanks

    2. OP*

      As an avid introvert, I do not think you would be a full time salesperson for a living in our market. This trip isn’t for everyone we employ, and historically it has suited the sales personality particularly well. It is no longer such a good fit across the board, which is why I am here. I know 100% this kind of trip isn’t appealing to many, or most people.

      1. Princess prissypants*

        Introverts can be successful sales people without wanting to spend an entire weekend golf-socializing with their coworkers. In fact, all the more reason for me to need Time Away From Other People. This is the opposite of a reward for me.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Here here, came to make the same point. 5 hours of forced togetherness – sweaty togetherness, at that – without even 20 minutes to wander away would be agony for a lot of people.

  49. Aphrodite*

    I wonder what the OP’s company would do if one of their top sales”men” was tragically hurt in a car accident and confined to a wheelchair, no longer able to play golf. What would be done because the company wouldn’t want to tell their top salesman “sorry”? (I am leaving the women out of this question.)

    2. Grits McGee*

      It reminds me of the episode from Mad Men after one of the male execs has his foot mauled by a riding lawnmower. He’s essentially fired when he loses his foot because “he’ll never golf again.”

    3. OP*

      cart girl?

      Sorry…

      Some people play golf out of a wheelchair. If they were so inclined I guess they could. Golf is not required. Historically it has been a good fit.

      1. Aphrodite*

        That was just an example. Let’s instead say that your top salesman suffered a permanent injury that rendered him unable to play golf in any way. What would the company do? Leave him off the guest list or offer to let him go shopping or have a spa day? I mean, he’s been participating enthusiastically for the last xxx years, enjoying the networking and building his base even more strongly through this golfing day. How will the company handle this?

        1. OP*

          That is a good question. We would likely not have a golf trip if we had an employee that was clearly physically unable to play. Seems like that would really rub in the injury if he was a big golfer before.

          Before posting the original question, I was thinking of the women in the same camp as the non golfing males. Their choice. However, it is seeming less and less appropriate by the minute since I read allison and every else’s response.

          Thanks,

          1. Ewesername*

            Welcome to my world. My workplace team building events are all sports related. I walk with two canes. I always get “oh, we need an equipment manager/score keeper”. That’s their way of including me.
            I usually stay home.

            1. Blarg*

              Ewwww. I’m so sorry that’s your experience. That’s … just so *obviously* unacceptable. And yet, obviously not.

          2. londonedit*

            ‘We would likely not have a golf trip if we had an employee that was clearly physically unable to play. Seems like that would really rub in the injury if he was a big golfer before.’

            And yet…you have a group of women who are telling you that they do not want to play golf. But they’re going to have to play golf regardless (or take themselves away from the whole team-building/networking opportunity by choosing to do something that isn’t the main activity)?

            You’re right that if someone used to be a big golfer, got injured, and was then invited on a work golf trip that they couldn’t go to, it would suck for them. Can you see that (just taking golf itself out of the equation for a minute) it would also suck for a woman – who may have been used to being included in workplace events and networking opportunities at her previous workplaces – to suddenly be told ‘Oh yeah, if you don’t want to do X then you can’t be properly included in the retreat weekend. Sorry.’

          3. Quandong*

            …keep on following this train of thought, OP.

            Try rewriting your sentence-
            We would likely not have a golf trip if we had an employee that we respected and valued and who we truly didn’t want to exclude who also did not play golf or want to watch other people play golf from the sidelines.

  50. Linda Evangelista*

    As someone who got left out of an organization golf trip *twice*, and actually WANTED to go, please just change the damn trip. So many people treat golf as this boys club sport and it’s exhausting.

    1. OP*

      Ok I am curious. We are trying to be inclusive rather than changing the trip. Can you say more specifically why you are suggesting otherwise?

      1. Mockingjay*

        You have to change the trip.

        I worked hard. My teammates worked hard. Our team did well this year. The company is offering a golf trip as a work reward (~compensation). Since I don’t golf, I cannot receive the award (~compensation), while the rest of the team can.

        How will you reward me for valued work? Please don’t tell me to drive the cart. That is not a reward. That is WORK.

        OP, your company has grown. It has outgrown this outing. Rather than trying to save this trip, your time would be better spent creating meaningful opportunities and recognitions for ALL employees.

        1. OP*

          Sorry Allsion. I did not mean for that to be dismissive of your response. I greatly appreciate your response and was going to thank you personally when this settled down.

          I was curious about her specific intention because she said she wanted to go on a similar trip but also wanted it to change. Thought there might be some direct experience to be gained from that.

          1. CJ*

            I read this as the commenter saying she wanted to go on a golf trip but was excluded because the organizers considered golf a men-only interest and therefore didn’t invite/include her. Obviously, that isn’t true that it is men-only, but the optics of an activity largely assumed to be “for men” by so many make it automatically feel uncomfortable and exclusionary for women, regardless of if they want to participate. I think she is suggesting finding another activity that isn’t so steeped in the assumption that women won’t be involved, regardless of their interest in the activity.

            1. OP*

              I read it the same way. The reason I was curious is we are obviously including the women if they wanted to play.

              But it appears they don’t. So it doesn’t really matter, just curiosity.

      3. Decima Dewey*

        “We are trying to be inclusive rather than changing the trip.”

        You want to be inclusive, don’t want to change the trip. Even though the trip excludes all the women on the sales team?

        1. OP*

          Haha. Yea that didn’t sound right did it.

          My hope was there would be some magic subtle change than made it work as well as it used to, and a winner for the new employees too. That isn’t going to happen.

          Allison’s advice was great and there is a lot of great advice in the comments too (IMO).

      4. Starbuck*

        You need to change to be inclusive. Otherwise, you are just asking the women to change, which is the problem. It’s not womens’ responsibility to change themselves to accommodate sexist practices, even if the men do think they’re really fun and it’s always been that way.

        1. OP*

          Sorry/ It has been difficult to keep up with the comments. Was trying to gain more insight into this specific experience…. not saying that I disagree with Allison or the rest of the comments, the trip will change fundamentally.

  51. Lady Phoenix*

    I pray the LW and his conpany act far more mature than the dude in the short letters who had a massive tantrum because he didn’t want to include his “young, tempting” female colleagues to a beach gig.

      1. OP*

        Thank you. I still kind of feel like I am in a house of mirrors at keep running into walls I didn’t see coming.
        But I will feel my way around until we get it right.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Alison, you have really topped your previous best here. Outstanding! Thank you for taking this question.

        1. OP*

          I am very thankful she took this question too.

          And to the people commenting. Thanks all.

        2. Save One Day at a Time*

          People were asking to a new thing to vote on like worst boss of the year, maybe favorite answer of the year might be a fun round up?

  53. Wren*

    Once upon a time I interned in a male dominated industry with a small firm. The only other women were the office manager and one of the two professional entry level non-intern employees. I was heavily pressured to attend the company golf day that was to take place within the first month of my time there. I did not want to: I don’t golf (I’ve even tried it and do not like it) and did not want to spend an entire Saturday of my limited free time doing a thing I do not like with people I had not yet developed a rapport with. There is the argument that I should have sucked it up to develop the relationships. But I’d prefer to argue that employees shouldn’t have to use their limited free time for it unpaid and doing a thing they don’t enjoy.

    I don’t remember if anyone else didn’t go. They tried to insist I go, but just like the the World Cup soccer/football pool that they tried to pressure me to join, I did not.

  54. Arctic*

    It changes nothing about the answer but this is such a crappy situation to be in for the women. Regardless, everyone will blame them for losing out on a bonding experience they all enjoyed. Which leads to built up resentment toward women in the office.
    There is little to be done about that other than let unequal and unfair treatment persist to not rock the boat. But we should acknowledge it’s not a great situation to be in.

    1. OP*

      I know. I have a pit in my stomach over it.

      Open to suggestions! Lots of good ones here.

  55. Kitty*

    I think the “women vs. men” thing is a bit of a red herring. What if all the new employees were male and they all didn’t play golf? It still would be right to reschedule for a more inclusive trip. Like that one guy who had to tag along in the cart was probably bored out of his mind.

    1. OP*

      Ill be honest, nothing. If they don’t want to play no one would have cared.

      On our last trip, two years ago, we had 2 guys just ride around between teams and drink beer, and one guy play who had never played before. It was fine.

      But I am trying to not put the group of women in that position.

      1. Yorick*

        I have a feeling that golf is such a “man thing” that it’s almost the same to be there and not actually play, while women just riding around in the cart might not truly be part of the event.

        1. OP*

          Yea that is pretty accurate. Most of the time on the course is hanging out, in four hours you only hit the ball ~70 times in a foursome. Men or women not playing but riding along wouldn’t stand out, unless they didn’t want to be there which would be obviously no fun.

  56. Lady Phoenix*

    Our company still has the golf outing thing. However, there are female sales reps who attend and we also host a cocktail party and pub crawl as an additional event…. plus a big expo for customers…

    1. Robm*

      “we also host a cocktail party and pub crawl as an additional event”

      …So excluding people who don’t want to be around alcohol for any reason. A potential religious discrimination issue at least.

      To be fair, getting these kinds of “fun events “ right is really difficult.

      1. Lady Phoenix*

        Well, to be fair, This is the foodservice industry and our clients are caterers, restaurants, hospitals, and the like.

        1. RobM*

          That might change the food aspect but are you telling me that you have no Muslim workers, or ones otherwise unable or unwilling to work around around alcohol?

          1. OP*

            At what point, like in an industry based on serving food with alcohol and employees with problems with alcohol, is a bad fit just a bad fit? I don’t think companies should be changing their business model for an employee that obviously would not be a good long term success in the industry.

            I am not suggesting the letter is an example of that.

            1. Pizza Boi*

              Just popping in to say that people think I am not a good long term fit in the food service industry anymore because I am a recovering alcoholic, but it is my industry. They say I shouldn’t be a good long term fit because I’m trans and there is a lot of sexual harassment in this industry.

              But you have to understand that using non work necessary factors to discriminate against employees that are unlike you IS the problem. The entire problem. It has always been the problem and it won’t stop being the problem until your team is representative of your population and everyone has equal opportunities.

              At my last restaurant everyone used to go out and get trashed and do karaoke for the for the employee party. And then when I came in folks got uncomfortable with that, so we tried to do more activities instead of just drinking. Then we decided to, as a team, cook a giant meal and have a huge picnic in the park with everyone’s families. We discovered that there were other employees besides just me who were being included for the first time. Our Latino employees felt comfortable at this new event, our employees with small children could finally attend. It was a significant change that made all sorts of folks happy who never would have spoken up on their own.

              Do better man.

              1. OP*

                That sounds difficult, I am glad they were able to better serve you. My point was only that if, for example, you were working in a bar, it may be more appropriate to find a new job than expect the bar to find you work away from alcohol. Which is why I said business model, not employee party.

                I am trying to “do better man” by doing what you said your company did for you in the last paragraph. That is exactly what the letter is about.

                1. Pizza Boi*

                  But your response here still fails. I poured beer at my last job. I work with alcohol. But the difference was that the culture around alcohol changed, not the substance or the job itself. No part of my job required drinking the alcohol, and for beers that came out after I got sober I only had to read tasting notes and chat with my coworkers about the flavor.

                  What I am saying is, you have a lot of control over culture when you make decisions like this. Working at a small family owned business can mean the culture becomes very homogeneous. But if you embrace the diversity of your staff, you can learn a lot more. I gave great non alcoholic drink recommendations as a result of always having to find great non alcoholic drinks for myself. I know sober bartenders who make awesome mocktails that weren’t served at their bars until they showed up. Draw on the diversity of experience and you are going to fill in the gaps missed by other, more homogenous companies.

                  Suggesting it is easier for someone to find a new job than it is for everyone to treat them with respect and accommodate (without undue hardship) says more about your priorities than I think you intend it to.

  57. Lauren*

    There is nothing intrinsic about golf that leads it to being men-only, however; plenty of women play and enjoy golf, and plenty of other women don’t, but would be happy to take lessons.

    I think the way to think about this is to take gender out of the equation and say to yourself: I have X employees who have always enjoyed Activity A and so we structured our reward-trips around that. Now I have Y new employees — who I value and want to retain — who don’t appear to enjoy Activity A, so now I need to come up with a solution that appeals to all. But don’t “make” golf = masculine, since that’s not the case.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can’t ignore the history that golf has in denying women professional access. It’s deeply entrenched in the history of working women, and that makes it different — and more problematic — than if this were just, say, ultimate Frisbee.

      1. ag47*

        FWIW, ultimate frisbee also has an unfortunate history of being played primarily by white, upper-middle class folks–and there are still lots more male players than female ones. People primarily get into it in college, which means that the demographic traditionally has been white and privileged. That’s changing somewhat, but the sport is still very expensive to play competitively since it involves traveling (often flying) to tournaments. There’s also been some recognition that non-white and players of color can be unfairly targeted for rules/spirit of the game violations since ultimate is self-officiated. https://ultiworld.com/2018/03/12/ultimate-race-spirit-game/
        https://slcwhblog.com/2019/04/08/equity-within-end-zones-seattle-e-n-d-ultimate-frisbee-and-the-decolonization-of-social-space-excerpt/

        (Obviously not the same historical business connotations, though perhaps there’s still some issues in tech companies that might actually be using Ultimate as a bonding activity.).

          1. Miss Petty and Vindictive*

            Or can use their netball which also gets used as a basketball, which also gets used as a baseball, which is also (amusingly) a golf ball.

            We weren’t even on a tight budget when I was a kid. My sister and I were really just like “well they’re all round objects and are therefore interchangeable” and didn’t ask for any other balls.

            The netball wasn’t even a conscious choice. We found it in my grandparents basement.

        3. Dan T*

          OK that is a real stretch to say that ultimate frisbee is expensive. Your other points are valid, but ultimate frisbee is up there with cheapest possible sports. Yes flights are expensive, but that would apply to any sport where people fly to compete. What percentage of people who play ultimate are playing competitively enough to regularly fly to compete?

          1. Abby*

            I would bet you several Actual American Dollars that it’s orders of magnitude higher than the percentage of people who golf who regularly fly to compete, for example. The base rate is low enough that the proportion who are serious about it goes way up.

            In my local small summer hat league (4 teams x 15-20 people per team = 60-80 people), there’s a good half dozen who are on tournament teams that fly around. Summer hat league is about as casual as you get; most of the serious players around here don’t play in them. I’m sure that’s skewed by being in metro Boston, but a back-of-envelope 10% figure is pretty high!

    2. LadyofLasers*

      Nothing about golf is ‘inherently gendered’. Both men and women can play and enjoy it. But, (white)men are much more often exposed to and encouraged to play, so they’re going to be able to participate more. And that’s the problem.

      1. LSP*

        Part of this is also because there are some golf clubs that have historically denied memberships to women (and people of color).

    3. Dr. Why not*

      Idk, the point above about the typical lack of bathroom access on the course kind of necessarily gears it more toward men. Women need to walk back to the clubhouse every time they need to pee, or use gross portapotties if they’re even there?

      1. OP*

        That point was misleading and incorrect.

        There have been bathrooms every few holes on every course I have played.

    4. merp*

      This is a bit ridiculous – some golf clubs outright ban women. If your point is that both men and women can and do physically play, that is really sidestepping the point that historically, it’s a sport for rich white men, and that is the exact problem with this trip.

  58. Lady Phoenix*

    Why don’t they set up a raft trip instead? /Very Hilarious and Bad idea

    Other ideas:
    1) Picnic at a nearby nature preserve
    2) An easy-level hiking course
    3) Pub Crawl
    4) Arcade
    5) Nice dinner at a restaurant

    I dunno…

      1. Subject Avocado*

        Totally agree– hard pass on the pub crawl in particular. I don’t drink, largely for religious reasons, and although I’ll go to the occasional happy hour with my coworkers (organized by management), they always ensure it’s at a place that serves food and non-alcoholic beverages besides water. A pub crawl implies that alcohol is the center of the activity, and alienates non-drinkers, who may abstain or limit contact with alcohol for a variety of reasons beyond religion. Additionally, many breweries and pubs do not accommodate non-drinkers well, and honestly, spending time watching my coworkers get sloshed at multiple locations is not how I’d want to spend the once-a-year reward retreat. It could also present safety problems.

        My workplace does an end of year holiday party at the local aquarium (we live in a very urban area), provides food, free access to the aquarium, and an animal visit (you don’t *have* to go into the aquarium if you don’t want to). People get two drink tickets and are free to purchase more alcohol if they wish– but not many do. It’s a great time and really is a comfortable atmosphere.

  59. Triplestep*

    You can frame it as, “As our staff has grown, we’re hearing that there are other things people would enjoy doing.”

    I just wanted to emphasize this point; if I could change anything about Alison’s advice, it would just be that this point could have been hit harder. Whatever you decide to do in lieu of a golf outing, the way you frame it is SO important. No doubt some of your employees who enjoyed the golf outing will grouse about the change and imply it’s the women’s fault. Don’t do this yourself. Don’t even hint at it, or leave room for them interpret this from whatever you say. Your words and tone are very important.

    Also, even though some of your original ideas are not great and are being shot down, it’s really good that you wrote in and asked the question.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      But that way of framing it puts the blame squarely on the new staff. This is the one thing I would change about Alison’s advice.

      This needs to be framed and seen and driven by *management* looking for something new because they want to change things up, keep it fresh, try new things, get in line with the 21st century. Maybe a trip to a virtual reality studio?

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, I agree. It needs to be framed as driven by management (hence the comment about words and tone) and Alison’s suggestion is one way to explain the move to a different direction. Saying “as our staff has grown …” isn’t saying “as we’ve hired women …”

        That said, it’s clear from the OP’s comments here that he’s really dug his heels in about golf and is just looking for a way to keep doing it. He knows he can’t make everyone happy, but seems to feel that moving away from golf will make the most people UNhappy.

  60. Bulldog*

    The trouble with activity based rewards is that you are never going to find one event that everyone enjoys / excels at / wishes to participate in. While I don’t believe cancelling the event altogether is necessary, I do think it should be made clear that it is truly optional for everyone (men and women) and there are no repercussions for not participating. Yes, non-participants may miss out on some facetime with the boss, but you risk that if you decline a lunch invitation or choose to skip the company Christmas party. I actually think it is somewhat sexist to describe golf as a “male” sport. These three particular women may not golf, but the next three hired might all be avid golfers. Personally, if I took a job in a company where golf was such an entrenched part of the company culture, I’d take it upon myself to take some lessons. While I doubt anyone expects PGA / LPGA level play, at least become proficient enough that you won’t embarrass yourself on the course. Alternatively, the company could look into what other activities are available in the area and offer that as an option. Management would need to be clearly split between participating in golf and participating in the other activity. We used to have a four day company paid retreat where we were offered the choice of golf or deep sea fishing. I don’t golf and while I’m a passable fisherman, it is not my favorite thing. I realize both of these are probably considered to be traditional male activities. Our company was about 50/50 male/female and women participated in both fishing and golf. Of course, some women and some men chose not to participate in either. I always went on the boat and enjoyed the fellowship with my coworkers. While you can’t ever really know what goes on in someone else’s head, the women on the boat certainly seemed to enjoy the fishing trip as well.

    1. Princess prissypants*

      The difference is that the Christmas party and a lunch meeting are not inherently exclusionary. Golf – or any other physical activity (especially sport-based) that is held during out of hours time – IS.

  61. learnedthehardway*

    Honestly, I’m going to go just a bit against the grain here, and comment that – given hindsight – I should have invested in golfing lessons and learned the sport, because it IS huge in my industry as a way to do business development and to network. The OP mentions the same thing about her industry. Anyone who wanted to do business development in the industry I’m in learned to golf, whether they liked it or not. Things have changed somewhat over time, but it’s been a slow and gradual shift, generally as the senior executives / decision makers of that generation have retired.

    In this situation, it may be a very good idea generally to offer beginner golf lessons, just so the staff who don’t know how can learn. That way, they’ll have better access to BD opportunities. I would bet that the woman who is willing to pass out beers would appreciate the opportunity to learn to golf – it sounds like she gets the importance of the networking.

    As for the event, yeah, that’s going to have to change. I don’t know what to suggest, mind you, and I think it will go over like a ton of bricks to try to change things for this year.

    1. OP*

      I am a firm believer in taking golf lessons, even just one or two, as a kid. My kids definitely will. Don’t have to stick with it, but it is a lot easier to learn when you are young.

      I did a summer camp at “the first tee” as a child and it has made my adult life so much better! You don’t have to be good, but fundamentals stick with you, knowing the rules goes a long way. You never know when you might get an invitation to play or an opportunity.

        1. OP*

          First Tee programs exist for outreach, and offer this kind of thing through scholarships or income scale pay models.

          But yea it isn’t going to work for everyone.

  62. Grey*

    This happens to POC employees too, I’ve been in bro/good ol’ boy environments where they don’t even think to/assume POC employees could potentially have similar interests/commonalities as them and the POC employees wouldn’t get invited (they miss out on the networking opportunities).

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Argh that assumption is so bizarre to me but I know it exists. Then they act like you’re some kind of “special” unicorn if you are interested. Then again, my old Samoan boss used to get asked by drunk morons at his country club if he was [insert random AF race here] all the time because /that/ is a thing cuz racism.

  63. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    “Cart Girl” just made me barf in my mouth a little. That sounds like a bunch of frat-boys and sorority girls setup. You don’t want to create these dynamics in your office or create an environment where it’s good to be “the cart girl”. I say this as someone who is very comfortable being a woman among a male dominated company. I would be happy to go along and bro-down with drinks on the cart but y’all can get your own drinks yourself.

    I have one lovely coworker who likes to try to serve the women first and I always have to tell him that I am all about “first come, first serve” fairness.

    1. OP*

      I am glad to say it isnt like a frat-boy crowd. But yea… I knew the cart girl thing would get some attention (and to be clear it was NOT a suggestion of the company).

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m glad to hear it! I was thinking it was someone who was hopelessly “trying” and wasn’t an actual office issue but flinched a bit of course.

        1. OP*

          You know… it seemed pretty sincere to me. But again… it isn’t happening, so no matter.

  64. TotesMaGoats*

    See, if you just did putt putt you wouldn’t have this problem. Putt putt is an inclusive activity. (I’m mostly joking.)

    I agree with AAM that the outing has to change.

  65. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

    I suggest that you look at this as more than just a man vs woman thing, because you said there have been years where a few men have not participated and been expected to work (which is unfair to them and total BS). The bottom line is that you need to either plan a trip to a place that offers many types of activities that would appeal to everyone, and do NOT split up those events or activities by gender. Maybe reach out to the sales team and have them submit suggestions so you can get an idea of shared interests.

  66. Zennish*

    I promise that if they’re being honest, you’ll never find a company where the majority of the employees truly want to give up their weekends or evenings to spend yet more time with their bosses and coworkers, no matter what the event is.

    If you want to give the staff a chance to mingle with the management/owners, do it on work time, not on what’s supposed to be their free time. Have a couple of catered lunches on the clock every year, or something like that. Any time you plan an event that inconveniences or excludes the people it’s supposed to be for, you’re doing it wrong.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh stop it. You don’t speak for all of us. I’ve had plenty of jobs where we all hangout as a group after hours and enjoy company parties/retreats. Don’t make promises you have no control over, it’s a gross look.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Eh, once you’re talking about companies larger than 30 or so, it’s a pretty safe statement that not every single person there will truly want to do that, statistically speaking.

        1. Malcolm Gladwell fan*

          There are very few times in life when you get 100% correlation all the time. So yes, you’re correct that “not every single person” will want to participate in every single activity. It doesn’t follow that all activities are illegitimate or superfluous or even exclusionary. Human beings are social creatures and may like to share activities together at times. I don’t see why the fact that some outliers deviate from this pattern means that we should forego all activities.

      2. Zennish*

        I didn’t say I was speaking for “all of us” and I was unaware that you personally were “the majority”. I was thinking more like 2/3rds would probably rather just opt out, but that may also be an overstatement, and my wording was bad, so I stand corrected, regardless.

      3. Don*

        Perhaps you had plenty of jobs that were characterized by management that had – consciously or not – engaged in hiring practices such that they only employed people like them and/or a largely young workforce and/or a largely child-free workforce such that everyone wanted to and had a life free to hang out after hours and go on retreats.

      4. Jennifer*

        Voluntarily. I don’t particularly want to give up my nights and weekends to hang out with people from work either, particularly since my husband and I don’t get to spend a lot of time together during the week. I’d rather be with my family and other loved ones during that time. Sometimes, you do what you gotta do, but I’d honestly resent it. I think team building events should be during the workday. People at the OP’s company seem to enjoy it, but I honestly think they are the exception.

  67. Sir Digby Chicken Caesar*

    So, I’m curious about a variation on this question: what if the division isn’t by gender (or another protected category) at all? What if the company has had the same culture for decades, but now new salespeople don’t golf, so 20% of the salespeople do not want to participate in this trip, but it’s not gender-biased at all. This is clearly, imo, problematic, because those people are going to either be left out or feel pressured to participate in something they do not like.

    What is the best approach to try and get the company in this case to change their practices, when you don’t have the lever of “we’re risking a lawsuit if we don’t change”?

    1. fposte*

      Mostly I’m posting to give you props for the name. I miss Sir Digby.

      As you say, this is a different kind of problem, but it is also a pretty frequent one. I don’t think participating in something you don’t like is an automatic work no, but if it’s on your own time and it’s supposed to be a reward and is instead a burden, that’s a pretty significant divergence of experience. Alison has posts about pushing back on different kinds of perks and work trips that will be relevant (if I have a second I’ll post links in followup), but this whole post is making me think about how loaded the “The whole office does this one thing once a year!” activity is, and that it’s just time to find different ways to celebrate, reward, and bond.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      In that instance, I think three factors matter.
      1) is golf an “this is the only event/way in which we recognize employees” vs. “this is one of several events this year/we rotate between several choices annually.”
      2) Is it golf, with the inherent networking structure/expectations around it, or some other event that might be more socializing with coworkers vs networking with bosses?
      3) How optional is it? Have those who historically haven’t participated been penalized in informal ways?

      1. another scientist*

        thiiiiiis.
        Sure, your particular case might not fit the bill for discrimination of a legally protected group. But if it still is repeated, conscious exclusion of a person from perks/opportunities, it’s up to your sense of common courtesy to stop it. Another example would be alcohol centered events of booze as a year-end gift while you might not have people who can’t drink for health or religious reasons, but you have people who choose not to drink or just hate the kind of drink that you choose. Maybe there is no lawsuit waiting to happen, but you’ll just do worse at retaining and attracting the people to help your business succeed.

    3. Creag an Tuire*

      Yesssss.

      One of the reasons I burned out of OldJob was because it quickly became clear that the jokes about “You can’t get a promotion if you’re not a fuckin’ alcoholic” were, in fact, not jokes, and a lot of meaningful decisions got made at the bar.

  68. Michaela Westen*

    Maybe it’s because I’m not much of an athlete, but having to learn to golf would make me switch careers. I like less strenuous activities that aren’t as disruptive to my life as a 3-day weekend trip.
    Coming from that place then, how about a company picnic that’s local? It could be on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. No one would have to learn a new sport. It could be in a nice park or nature preserve with barbecue, and those who like grilling could show off their skills. Of course, the company would buy or reimburse for the meat and food. If no one wants to grill – unlikely! – the company could hire a chef/caterer.
    The children would enjoy it, and those who like sports could throw balls or frisbees around. Maybe even a little putting with the golf clubs, if that’s safe.
    You could invite people with other hobbies to have fun with them too, such as playing music.

  69. Princess prissypants*

    >> “…which of course, is also not an appropriate mandated group activity.”

    1. Princess prissypants*

      in reference to any other physical activity, including ultimate frisbee.

  70. Anon for this*

    This… would definitely be my husband’s company were they not so tight they squeak when they walk.

  71. LSP*

    OP, maybe it would help to think of it this way:

    If your company was mostly female, and the sales team that had historically been all female had an annual spa weekend, with manis and pedis and massages and all that, and then one year you had hired a handful of male sales associates, who made is clear, either implicitly or explicitly, that this was not a trip they would enjoy, you’d probably suggest changing the trip to be less focused on typically “female” activities.

    Now, it’s not a perfect comparison, because, as Alison points out, golf and other sports-related work outings have a fraught history in a way that isn’t true for my example, but the theory holds that activities that in anyway exclude members of own group (especially if that group is based on a protected characteristic) is a BAD IDEA. It’s the same as when certain male bosses decline to mentor young women (or even have a work meal with them) because it continues to give professional advantages to one group over another based on a protected characteristic.

    For another example, what if your company held a ski trip (a stereo-typically “white” activity”) every year and there were a few employees who were people of color who had never skied before and didn’t really care to. How would you feel about having an activity that excluded a group of employees based on their race? Probably pretty icky, right? Feel icky about this as well and find an alternative.

    1. OP*

      I would love to go to a spa. Unfortunately it doesnt provide the bonding experience that the golf trip has in the past.

      there is no perfect solution, but like Allison said, I think the trip will be phased out in the not too distant future.

      2. ceiswyn*

        I’ve always found a spa trip to be a bonding experience.
        Maybe you males need lessons in how to spa properly?

        1. OP*

          I usually avoid the mostly nude bonding experiences with co-workers, or encouraging them. Or at least consider the dressed ones first.

          But yes other activities would be better than golf.

          1. WillyNilly*

            Again, perhaps you need lessons in how to spa.

            I have had many (well over a dozen) bonding spa days with friends and family, and only *once* was nudity involved, and even that was voluntary.

  72. Just wondering (pronouns: she/her)*

    On top of all of the excellent comments made below, I want to address this: “Historically, all or very nearly all of our sales team have been male”

    Anytime you have a team that is disproportionately made up of the privileged/majority group, there’s something going on that needs to be addressed. I would suspect that there are sexism issues that go beyond this golf trip.

    This issue may be bigger than just this specific team, as a commenter noted that many sales teams are mostly men. But that just suggests it’s an *even larger* issue that shouldn’t be ignored.

    1. OP*

      If more men are interested in 100% commission based sales jobs than women, that is not something I feel like women should be pushed into. This is based on our small sample of applicants, and I am not making claims about women in general just what I have seen at this company. I don’t know that specifically tailoring every job description to be more appealing to women is a necessity in industry. If this role isn’t appealing to a woman candidate for whatever reason, maybe another is. There are certainly roles that aren’t appealing to most men.

      1. Just wondering (pronouns: she/her)*

        I think it’s worth taking some time to consider why this job is not appealing to women, if that is the case. Whether the reason originates somewhere in your company’s culture (including your hiring process), something in the greater industry, or something in the greater culture, it’s important to consider. Even if it’s not something you can solve yourself.

        There’s a very big difference between pushing women into a role and considering what factors might make them avoid the role.

        Would more women want to be in these sales roles if they weren’t already completely/predominantly held by men? Most people don’t want to be the odd one out. Have there been women who have observed your culture (e.g. golf trips, etc.) and felt they wouldn’t be welcome or comfortable? Have the sales team gotten so used to working with men only that they may not realize ways in which they may be making women uncomfortable?

        I’m not saying your company is evil or that you are responsible for the skewed gender balance. I promise.

        What I am saying is that I would encourage you to consider the perspective of the marginalized group that you don’t belong to, without defensiveness. There are many articles you can find on this topic and related ones. There are consultants you can hire. There is thinking you can do and then people/resources you can check your thinking against.

        [Note – It is common when people are considering the experience of marginalized people to hold those groups responsible for educating them. Please don’t do this. Start with Google and go from there. It’s not the responsibility of marginalized people to educate others, plus doing big work like consulting about how to improve a company culture should be compensated. I’m not saying that there isn’t a place for asking people about their lived experiences, but just tread likely because there are *so* many ways in which that can go wrong and/or perpetuate existing inequalities (e.g. The time a woman spends helping address sexism in the workplace is time that she isn’t spending doing her job responsibilities, advancing her career, making connections, resting to be refreshed for the next day’s work, etc. Also, being called to speak on behalf of women’s experiences perpetuates the experience of feeling othered).]

        1. OP*

          I dont really want to get into the whole men vs women differences thing, but one obvious one in this type of sales role would be there is no traditional paid time off.

          In any 100% commissioned job time off is not going to be paid. Now, some of our reps make well into the six figures and can work as much or as little as they want to. If they are selling, we don’t micro manage their time at all. But not having a paid maternity leave written into a contract would scare off a certain group of people. I think flexible time/paid leave is something many women look for in a job, more-so than men. The problem is if you negotiate a base salary plan, vs the commissioned plan, and you sell well, you are likely going to be making less than you would have.

          It isn’t perfect, for sure.

  73. Robm*

    To me, this obviously discriminates against the women on the team, but also potentially against disabled men, people from a background where alcohol is not welcome. This being at the heart of company culture will eventually turn into a huge problem imo.

    1. OP*

      If you rule out alcohol, meat, activities requiring an able body and mind, interest in an activity, environmentalism, gender roles, childcare challenges, outing people with IBS…. and all the other danger zones brought up here:

      I guess you are left with cash.

      1. Robm*

        As I said elsewhere, I understand this isn’t easy.

        Cash bonuses have the advantage of never being the wrong thing, but obviously won’t do much for team ‘togetherness’.

        Of course, there *is* lots room for compromise between something systemically problematic (e.g. Golf) and nothing whatsoever. Finding a compromise that’s genuinely welcome to a good cross-section of the team is why management isn’t easy.

    1. Me*

      Any company outing “reward” sounds like hell to me. Hanging out with my coworkers more than already required is not my idea of a reward.

  75. Wing Leader*

    Also, just had to come back and say that the idea to give the women cash and send them shopping reads very much like, “You ladies go buy yourself something pretty while we talk business.” No, no, no. Double no.

  76. PurplePen*

    OP, how quickly and enthusiastically you latched on to the lessons suggestion in comments and just tossed out everything Allison said about this subject makes me question why you really wrote. Did you really want to know the right thing to do here, or were you just hoping for a loophole that allows you to preserve the status quo?

    I think that you know the right thing to do in your head – your letter shows that you’re giving thought to inclusion and equity – but your heart is resisting the change. Giving up something you like (and making others upset in the process) isn’t easy. But it has to be done. Listen to Allison, do the right thing, and send a strong message to the women on your staff that you support them.

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      I keep thinking the same thing. OP is really eagerly hopping on the lessons train, responding to those comments with lots of enthusiasm, but not saying anything in response to the people who are pointing out that there’s a way deeper issue with sexism present in this company that golf lessons aren’t going to solve.

      1. fposte*

        I agree, but I also think it can be a hard pivot to make at speed; we’ve had letter writers absorb and reconsider over time and come back later, so hopefully the OP will too.

    2. OP*

      OK. I really do appreciate Allison’s advice and I agree that the trip will likely change/end pretty soon.

      However, I wrote in trying to find a way for it to work, and for everyone to be included. Can you blame me for that? And to be honest, I still don’t fully understand the anti-optional-pre-trip-lessons stance.

      But you are correct that my heart is resistant to change. I want it to work. But I know that it can’t.

      1. Don*

        I am trying to find a way to both eat as much ice cream and cookies as I want, and to maintain my weight and cholesterol level. I know I cannot and convincing myself I am succeeding in the short term even as I know it cannot work in the long term is just foolish.

        1. OP*

          Amazing how many people do that though….

          I am working on my diet Don! I am working on it.

      3. Other Duties as Assigned*

        One other problem with the pre-trip lesson route is that it only gives a non-solution for this year’s staff. Say that you hire a new person who doesn’t golf (male or female) before next year’s outing. Is part of their onboarding making sure they’ve had golf lessons scheduled (and perhaps on their own time to boot)? How would you impart this to the newbie? “Here’s your new e-mail address, your keycard, a company mug and a copy of the employee handbook. Oh yes, you need to pick a time for your non-optional golf lessons.”

        The lessons aren’t the answer for this all the other reasons given.

      4. Usually Lurks, Sometimes Comments*

        The problem with the optional pre-trip lessons is that you are requiring some people to do extra work to earn a reward that they’ve already won. Essentially, you are telling a group of people–all of whom have already earned this reward–that now they have to work extra for it. Meanwhile, the other group doesn’t. Instead of making the reward for good work inclusive, you are forcing a group of your staff to change and work harder so that other people won’t be bummed out. That is already an unfair situation. Now add the gender dynamics already at place in the workforce and on the golf course. It is a bad idea. In some ways, it ends up playing out as, more work and less pay (pay being the compensation for work, which is a trip in this case).

        You can offer golf lessons. But you can’t make it have anything to do with this trip. The trip needs to change.

        I know it’s fun. I know it’s a tradition. I know it’s hard to change. But you can’t keep going on like this. I think offering multiple activities and placing a higher up in each activity is the best option you have to keep this trip going. Even then, it’s probably better just to provide a cash bonus and get rid of the trip entirely.

      5. Creag an Tuire*

        Just try to stay in “Work Mode” about it. I get that you like the golf trips, but you wouldn’t hesitate to let go of a likeable employee who was failing to meet their sales quotas and generally falling down on the job, right?

        The golf trip had a job. The job was to reward members of your team and improve their morale. It is no longer functional in this role, and it is time to “fire” it.

      6. Not So NewReader*

        The pre-trip lessons only perpetuate the problem, when it’s time to stop with the golf event. If you must do this use company time all the way. It’s no different than learning a new computer program or whatever for work. They need to know how to golf for work so this is company time and company lessons and company gear. Own it, all the way.

        Your better bet is to announce the company is changing direction with its rewards systems and get away from the golf event entirely.

  77. austriak*

    I once worked at a company that had an annual thing sort of like this but it was a one day thing. They held it at a resort and gave everyone the option to either golf for the day or get a massage. Just give everyone multiple options of what they can do if they go.

    Personally, if I was one of these employees, I would prefer for them to stop doing these trips, give me a day off, and the money they would have spent as a bonus. Money trumps outing with co-workers.

    1. Groove Bat*

      It’s not about the activity. It’s about the access. As long as the company execs are playing golf, whoever plays with them gets the advantage.

  78. redheadk*

    Could you change the structure of the trip? My husband’s company does a trip for the sales and executive teams each year that is more inclusive. It typically includes some sort of large group outing that accommodates the abilities/interests of everyone (a boat trip with snorkeling and lunch the last few years, very enthusiastically received by the entire group), a few group dinners, and then we can choose from a variety of activities to do either in a group with anyone interested or on our own (spa, food tours, golfing, jet skis, cooking class, cabana by the beach for the day, or anything else at the location that sounds interesting or fun to us). People could still choose to play a round of golf but it wouldn’t be the focus.

  79. Kaitlyn*

    LW, what happens to your understanding of this trip when you reframe it as “fun work perk” to “off-site networking event”? Like, obviously the decision to send the women away, or offer them sideline positions, becomes glaringly problematic?

    (Also, I thought about it this way: if you changed the trip to a yoga retreat – an activity that way more women do, although not universally, and men also do, albeit less often – would that be amazing for the folks in your office? Would the men feel awesome doing yoga in front of each other? Would the women feel awesome about being better at it than the men? [I know I’m trading a bit on stereotypes, but it kind of scans with a golf comparison.] Would beginners feel really competent in among experienced yogis? Would disabled people enjoy it? Having people feel like their best and most competent selves is a big part of feeling good about work, whether it’s a casual weekend or an intense sales job. Golfing doesn’t check those boxes for so many people, so in addition to the sex descrimination and culture shift, change this so that you give your entire sales team the gift of feeling awesome.

    And, if you can’t think of anything, let’$ brain$torm.)

    1. Princess prissypants*

      And I would add to these, “Is the company providing childcare for employees who need it in order to attend?” and “Does this activity fill the intended purpose?” (probably not) and “Is this actually a reward, or are we doing it for another purpose?”

    2. Me*

      Perfectly stated. That’s exactly what it is – off-site networking/team-building. And they’re suggesting leaving out a chunk of the team by gender – unintentional though it may be.

  81. Bananatiel*

    I’m sure this has been said but the “cart girl” volunteer does not actually want to be cart girl, more than likely. I worked for a company that owned two golf courses. Golf wasn’t the core mission of the organization– and certainly not why I took the job– but historically all of the employees in my department were golfers (male and female, actually) so it had become a required annual team bonding to have a day out on the more difficult course. It was hyper-competitive and my first year I was petrified because I’d literally never played non-mini-golf before in my life and everyone was really talking up their games and strategies. I addressed it with the office manager and she told me I had to come but that I could be the beverage cart driver since participation was mandatory. Wee.

    I’d never driven a golf cart before and I didn’t understand the layout of the course… or, for that matter, what is considered common etiquette on the course. There were other golfers on the course that day not affiliated with the company and I pissed *so many* people off by approaching at the wrong time, accidentally ignoring certain groups of people, driving over the wrong parts of the course (being from a blue-collar background how am I supposed to just naturally know certain heights of grass are off limits?!). It did not go well but everyone insisted I had done just fine for “my first time on the course”.

    The second year I called in sick the day of the retreat because I was still the odd one out and had been assigned cart girl again. The third year we’d made enough new hires/had enough turnover that several people complained and I was happy to join in to force change. They switched the day to a mandatory team BBQ in the afternoon with the golfing optional in the morning. It still sucked because some people got the whole day off work essentially while the rest of us worked. And the BBQ was problematic because it left the vegetarian only able to eat mac and cheese/biscuits, but it was a tiny baby step in the right direction.

    You’ll be unsurprised to hear that I left that job last fall because I had issues with the culture and leadership, ha.

    1. Princess prissypants*

      Yep, this would totally be me.

      Boss: “We are doing this; it is mandatory; you have to go.”

      Me: “But I absolutely will not play golf.”

      Boss: “Then you can drive the beer cart.”

      Me: “OK.”

      1. OP*

        It was more like:

        Boss: We are trying to find dates for the fall golf trip.
        Female EE: Oh cool I don’t play but I can be cart girl.

        She does not speak for the others, and I am here looking for alternatives because I was not satisfied with that as an ideal solution.

        1. Colette*

          I think it’s important to realize that that exchange doesn’t mean she wants to be the cart girl – just that she sees that as the best of her options, and possibly that she believes there will be a cost to not doing what everyone else wants to do.

      2. SarahTheEntwife*

        Same here.
        Me: “I do not want to play golf; I will hit someone in the face and be terrible at it.”
        Them: “You could drive the golf cart!”
        Me: “Awesome!! Vroom vroom!”
        Them: “How could you not magically know how golf courses work??!”

    2. Zennish*

      Your comment clued me to why I had a more than usual reaction to this letter. Beyond the inherent sexism, there is also the inherent elitism going on. As someone who comes from a very blue collar family and cultural background, I found it offensive on that score, without quite realizing it, initially.

  82. I was in band for a reason*

    Just came here to say Top Golf is a pretty awesome compromise if people will agree to it. I never golfed and am horrible at sports but had a blast recently with my coworkers spending the afternoon “golfing” off a 3 story building into targets.

    1. OP*

      I have never been, but heard great things. Might have to look into this as one of several activities in a future trip.

      Thanks

  83. Autumnheart*

    The only way the golf trip could conceivably be considered fair is if the managers didn’t golf with employees at all, and only mingled with the employees during events at which everyone would be together, like a nightly dinner/social hour.

    If managers are mingling with employees, it must necessarily be during something everyone is doing. Not “we golf and you go to the city,” not “separate cabins”, not “you take lessons and hang out at the cart bringing us beers”.

  84. Master Bean Counter*

    The easy way to look at this is you have 3-5 people out of 10-15 that don’t play golf. That’s 20-50% of the group that doesn’t golf. This is no longer a good group bonding activity. You usually want at least 85% participation to make an event a good bonding event.

    I’m sure the city offers up foodie tours or a party bus. If you are in the right area maybe even a winery or brewery trip.

  85. Old Cynic*

    Yeah, this kind of thing is not good.
    I was the IT Manager at a small company years ago and every June the company would take the warehousemen, the sales guys, the purchasing guys and senior management out to a baseball game on a workday afternoon. All the men in the company. Well, all the men except me. I was left behind with the women to keep working. Because they considered me an office worker and therefore thought I was not interested in sports. It still stings a bit.

    1. OP*

      Wouldn’t it have been worse if you were the only office worker invited because you were a man?

      Our rewards are usually based on department, not gender. Often, the department can settle on an activity that at least interests most of the employees in the dept. In this case ours, for sales, was golf. It isn’t the case anymore than nearly all of our dept loves golf, so…. I am here!

      Thanks

  86. RUKiddingMe*

    The send the little ladies shopping and “cart girl” (so they are children?) things both were pissing me off. Not only don’t ask anyone to be a “cart girl,” don’t permit it. It’s sexist and gross.

    1. OP*

      I thought I made this clear in the letter. I did not, we did not, ask anyone to be cart girl. Conversation went something like this:

      Boss (general announcement): We are looking at dates for the fall golf trip.
      Former Bartender Female EE: Oh cool I dont play but I can be a cart girl and pass out beers.

      I am here because I knew this was not the answer.
      And would you rather watch people play golf or be handed $500 and allowed to disappear for the day? I am trying…

      1. Princess prissypants*

        I would rather golfing not be a) the “best” way to spend time networking b) be the focus of a “retreat” that makes me have to do MORE unpaid work *and* pay extra for childcare c) be considered a “bonus”.

        I would absolutely cherish $500 and a day off, but not while everyone gets the opportunity to schmooze the boss because they happen to be able to participate in the golf trip.

        1. Me*

          I would rather have no “reward” at all, than be penalized professionally with less team time and less manager time than other because I don’t choose to (or cannot) partake in the offered activity.

          I think OP is trying. But at this point it is still mostly trying to find away to still keep the think that all the dudes enjoy. The answer really is no golf trip – there’s no in between that’s equitable.

      2. Observer*

        In all of the discussion, I have not seen you ever indicate that you would even think about asking the women what their suggestions are.

        You haven’t given them any options – you’ve announced that THIS WILL BE HAPPENING. And one of the women is making it clear that she’ll do what it takes to get the face time. But it’s a gross thing she’s suggesting.

        If the only way that someone can see their way to getting face time that others are getting in the normal course of events is to demean themselves, you should think VERY, VERY hard about why this is. And realize that the set up needs to be changed from the ground up.

        1. OP*

          Yea we have a lot of time (6 months) before the trip. I was hoping to at least have some options or ideas available, or be persuaded to call the whole thing off preemptively, before directly asking for opinions. That can put them in an award spot too. If the trip changes or ceases to exist, I don’t want them to feel like it was a direct response to their ” no that doesn’t sound fun” response.

          But we will definitely get their input before anything is set in stone.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            This year, give them money, a lunch, and the afternoon off; if *employees* want to go golfing on their day off they can, ask managers explicitly *not* to go golfing with employees on that weekend. Next year, find a way to bring the networking aspect back in fairly for all employees.

            1. Random obs*

              I don’t think it’s any company’s business to tell employees who they can and cannot associate with during “days off.”

              1. Groove Bat*

                You can absolutely tell managers and execs to not fraternize with their employees in this way.

      3. EventPlannerGal*

        “And would you rather watch people play golf or be handed $500 and allowed to disappear for the day? I am trying…”

        For something that’s supposed to be a bonus? $500. Obviously.

        Look, OP, I think you really, really need to get some clarity as to what you actually want to achieve with this trip, because your comments are all over the place. Is it:

        a) a reward to your staff for their hard work throughout the year, with some internal networking thrown in?
        b) training in a skill you believe is necessary to succeed in your industry?
        c) a fun boozy golf weekend with the guys (and cart girl), and hell mend anyone who doesn’t like that?

        If you and your company genuinely want to reward your staff for their hard work with some kind of activity, you need to ensure that activity is actually something that can be considered a reward. Not everyone is going to find a golf weekend to be a good reward, and yes, maybe they would prefer being left to their own devices with $500. I know I certainly would.

        1. OP*

          Well… That is why I am here!

          It was supposed to be A and C. And still is, but without the second half and guys part of C. We are going to make it less golf based, more inclusive, and hopefully a reward everyone can appreciate and benefit from equally.

      4. Scarlet2*

        “And would you rather watch people play golf or be handed $500 and allowed to disappear for the day?”

        Is this a serious question?
        “Would you rather watch paint dry or get money and a day off?”

        1. OP*

          Oddly enough, a lot of folks like to play golf on a nice course. But clearly not everyone, which is why I was looking for options.

          1. Scarlet2*

            You didn’t say “would you rather PLAY golf or get money” however, you said “would you rather WATCH people play golf or get money”. Which is very different.

            I’m guessing a lot more people would choose playing golf rather than watching others play golf, obviously.

      5. RUKiddingMe*

        You did make that clear.

        Do you not see how in the name if getting networking opportunities, which would still not be equal to male colleagues’ …be cause “cart girl/helper” (sooooo much ick…even if she *was* a former bartender…and if it *was* her idea), she is suggesting donething that would debase herself?

        Something that would only cement the idea that women aren’t “real” professionals? That women’s real purpose is to be of service to males? That would further hold women back from advancement and is just more of the same old sexist bullshit?

        You really need to scrap thus whole golf weekend. It’s not about golf per se, though golf is historically problematic, and find something (probably not any kind of sport really…sexist, ageist, ableist…) that doesn’t exclude groups of people who can’t partake.

        You say you have six months before you start planning/take the trip? Get busy.

    2. Noah*

      For what it’s worth, I’m a man who doesn’t golf but would be down for the cart girl role, other than the title. Hanging out with people I like and drinking beer while they golf sounds like a pleasant enough day, especially if it helps me professionally.

      But the title cart girl? That’s awful, regardless of your gender.

      1. OP*

        One of the common denominators is everyone is going to hit some really bad shots. And that is perfectly OK.

        +1

  87. Master Bean Counter*

    I am a woman.

    When I worked in the Auto parts industry I learned about Nascar and watched the races. It helped with the job.
    When I worked in downtown Kansas City I learned about baseball because the company had outings to the stadium. If you wanted to get to know management you had to show an interest in baseball.
    Where I work now I took up an interest in college basketball. I won the pool this year. I’ve got more visibility from other managers than before. Also the trash talking is so much fun. Oh you think my ideas are shaky—how did your bracket do again?
    If I worked in sales I’d take up golfing. If I think I couldn’t move ahead with out learning golf, I’d be at the course every weekend.

    Do I think any of this is really fair? Nope. not one bit.

    But if I’m going to make connections with other people I’ve learned that I’ve got to push myself out of my comfort zone. I would love it if people would talk about gardening and wanted trips out to get margaritas and nachos. And you know what I’ve found I actually like doing some things I’ve pushed myself to do in the first place. I’ve also found that when I’m willing to try some one else’s thing, they are more willing to try mine.

    Back to the problem at hand–Can the OP offer up lessons in advance of this year’s golf weekend? Would that make some of the people more comfortable with the trip? But really a different trip should be offered up next year.

    1. Princess prissypants*

      But, were you required to successfully drive the race car or play the sport in order to get face time with the boss? That’s what this is really about.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Exactly. Employees should not have to master a sport in order to network with colleagues. What about an employee with physical limitations? You’ve just excluded a talented person from participation.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Mastering and knowing something about the sport are two very different things. Knowing enough to be a informed spectator is often good enough. I’ve been the score keeper and chief heckler before, just to be part of the activity. Such as I loathe bowling but I’ll happily sit there and keep score.

          1. RUKiddingMe*

            *You* are happy to do those things. Others may not be…and shouldn’t have to be.

            Sure the world is X way and it’s fine to accept that if you choose. I prefer to speak truth to power and fight to make things the way they *should* be…even if that means not fitting into whatever box others think I should fit.

            Actually especially when I hear “I’m a woman and I compromised/capitulated..,” it makes me want to fight even harder to burn patriarchy and all its expectations to the ground and pour enough salt that it wont even think about growing back.

      2. Master Bean Counter*

        Actually…..I jumped at the chance to drive a Nascar truck when it came to the store I was working at.
        Anyway I did state that if was necessary I’d learn to play golf. Would I like it? Maybe maybe not. But I don’t like going to happy hours when all I want to do is go home, but I do it.

      3. MeepMeep*

        OP says none of the golfers are all that good. I’ve tried playing golf before and it’s not that hard to play it badly. That’s all it would take to get face time with the boss, sounds like.

        I’d much rather learn to golf than do, say, a CrossFit event.

    2. Working Mom Having It All*

      I’m curious how many men who work in female-dominated workplaces are expected to develop an interest in fashion, cooking, or true crime podcasts, to the point where they will be professionally sidelined if they don’t.

  88. Noah*

    Wait, what? Who says “the women” don’t want to go. Nobody has even asked them. My wife doesn’t golf, but she used to and if there were golf cart rides, wine to replace beer, and gambling on golf, I’m sure she’d want to go. It is very odd that neither OP nor Alison thinks they should actually ask the employees what they want (excluding the illegal option where they offer to compensate women who do not attend but not men in the same situation).

    1. Observer*

      That’s actually not true. A number of people actually suggested asking the women what they’d like. But the OP has made it clear that the woman don’t want to golf, and the only suggestions made were TOTALLY not about making it more inclusive. It was basically either “send the women to shop while we golf” or let the women ride along and them we’ll golf while they sit back in the cart.”

      No input from the women solicited at any point.

      1. OP*

        I think you are being uncharitable. I am not saying I know they dont want to do this and we are making them, or making them drive a cart or go shop. I am not saying we will not be looking for their input.

        I am looking for ideas before they are approached, because I was hoping to relieve them of the guilt or assumption that they put an end to the trip. I can ask, and if they say no go, cancel the trip. I dont think that would be doing them any favors.

        1. Groove Bat*

          Don’t put it on them to say no, OP. That just creates resentment among the old boys. You’re the decision maker here. You know what you need to do, just cancel the trip, give everyone money, and have a nice awards dinner.

    2. fposte*

      The OP says the women don’t play golf. It’s a golf trip. It doesn’t matter if they want to go on the weekend and do some shopping or welding or NASCAR–there’s no way to pull off a golf trip in which the female staff don’t golf without marginalizing women in that workplace. And, as witnessed by the woman who suggested being “cart girl,” it’s not as simple as just doing what the women suggest, either.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I know; it’s no fun being the one doing the heavy lifting on change that not everybody’s going to like. I’m glad you’re being thoughtful.

        2. RUKiddingMe*

          Here’s the thing…golf is sexist, classist, and ableist. It leaves out a whole bunch of people. Offering lessons is 1) patronizing, 2) implying that the offer must be accepted regardless of how many times you say it’s “optional,” and 3) a really expensive time suck for people who would otherwise not spend their money on a very expensive hobby and their time with family/friends instead.

          Lots of people, not just women, but males as well don’t want to play. Saying “oh ok you go one and do X and we’ll just golf” especially when the big cheese(s) are golfing gives the golfers an unfair opportunity. It essentially excludes everyone else because of it being the primary focus. Legally speaking this can easily fall into hostile workplace territory.

          Want to reward people? The golf weekend costs $500/head? Give everyone $500.oo and a dinner at a nice place…get a private room and do a “Dundies” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dundiestype thing. Hell give them $500.00 each and a cocktails and hors d’oeuvres face-time-with-the-boss hour. Or give them $500.00 and a day off work. Something that actually recognizes their work/rewards them instead of some “oh it’s optional” type thing that everyone will feel is compulsory.

  89. Krakatoa*

    I would agree that the golfing trips more or less have to end soon, and something else arranged. I personally like the nice dinner idea that another commenter suggest.

    I’m not going to crucify the OP’s company for having them though, given what he said about the location. If the city is a golfing mecca, then it may be a little single-minded, but probably shouldn’t be considered out-of-touch that they had golfing as a work reward trip for the sales crew. To me, it’d be akin to a company in Orlando taking it’s staff to a theme park as a work reward.

    1. OP*

      Yea it really always was a natural winner for the employees. People don’t seem to trust that it was well received and appreciated in the past, but it was.

      We will make the necessary changes and try to hit another home run that works for everyone.

  90. Koala dreams*

    I’m very surprised to see so many people assume that golf is a man’s sport. I have known more women than men interested in playing golf, and I would put it as more of a women’s sport nowadays, similar to horse riding which traditionally has been a men’s sport but now is wildy popular among women. It’s pretty weird that most of the men at your company are interested in golf and none of the women, and I think you need to dig deeper into why that is. Of course people of all genders are disintered in or even hate golf, but when you stop at “I guess women are not interested in golf” you do yourself and your company a disservice. For example, you could ask yourself questions like this: Does this particular golf club have a history of discriminating against women? Is there a competitive vibe to the golf outing that makes women less interested to go?

    Secondly you need to realize that there is no sport in this world that everybody would be interested in playing with their colleagues at a weekend. Especially in your case where golf, if I understand correctly, is part of work. As thanks for all your hard work, welcome to a weekend where you do even more work with your collegues for no purpose? It’s possible that the women’s disinterest lies more in them being new and expecting to actually be rewarded with something that shows appreciation, and not specifically tied to them being women.

    Lastly, to suggest a team event that would be more inclusive, I suggest a catered BBQ. Low key and many people like eating together.

    1. fposte*

      It’s not about assuming, though; it’s about history. I don’t remember where you are in the world, but IIRC it’s not in the US, so it’s history you might not be aware of.

      To this day, there are private golf clubs in the U.S. that don’t admit women. It’s quite likely there are also clubs that still don’t admit people of color. There was a shitstorm only in the last ten years about clubs that fought with the main US golfing association because the clubs wanted to continue to refuse membership to women. One of those is the course that’s the venue for the biggest event in American golf, which refused to admit women until 2012.

      The word “club” is really important as well because in the U.S. golf clubs and “country clubs” were hugely exclusionary in the 20th century, and that from a class standpoint was a big part of their purpose; since they’re generally private the law had little remedy against things like racist membership rules. They have often been highly visible users of land in the centers of communities where many residents wouldn’t be permitted membership. And it’s that kind of country club course where business trips like the OP’s would have been taking place.

      There are cool counter histories–the history of African-American golfing is fascinating for a start–but big name, big money golfing in the US is predominantly white and male, and the history of golfing as a schmoozing-with-the-boss practice is as well.

      1. Koala dreams*

        Yes, I know there are very sexist golf clubs and that historically it’s a men’s sport, and that’s why I suggested that the OP would look into it a bit more and don’t make it about the women being interested or not in playing golf. Thanks for informing me about the history of country clubs, I didn’t know that.
        It’s a good point that the interests for various sports varies a lot in different countries. It’s possible golf is less popular in the US.
        The class issue is the same here in Sweden, golf is super expensive. I didn’t bring it up because A) many other commenters had written about this issue a lot better than I could and B) I feel the issue of class is a industry-wide problem in many salespeople jobs, and honestly I have no idea how to fix that.

        1. fposte*

          I was trying to find an Australian example based on your name, so now that I know you’re in Sweden I’m glad I didn’t end up doing that :-).

          1. Koala dreams*

            Well, I’m not very clever with names. Maybe I should have chosen something with moose instead?

            And I want to correct my earlier statement about class: obviously the class issue is not the same, but golf is considered to be more upper class in Sweden also. It’s less expensive than horse riding or ice hockey, but much more expensive than more accessible sports such as soccer or badminton.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          WHOOPS, I just realized my ‘Tiger Woods couldn’t play in 2013 British Open because Muirfield didn’t allow black people’ was a spoof, Muirfield didn’t allow *women*.

      2. OP*

        I know this is true. But I think recognizing that it was only recently true at extremely expensive and exclusive private clubs wouldn’t really keep out a significant number of women in recent history. I am NOT saying that the practice is OK.

        But the reality is maybe a few hundred women would have wanted to join these clubs, drop 10’s or 100’s of thousands of dollars on initiation fees, thousands a month in dues, for the right to play at a specific course.

        There are thousands and thousands of public courses in the country that are inexpensive to play, inclusive, etc. Kid specific courses, etc. I would not say golf is a “white” sport at least around here. Or Male. That doesn’t erase the history, but I don’t think it should mean it should be off limits as something a company sponsors.

  91. Brownies*

    I disagree with Alison’s response. Golf is not a men’s sport, golf is a sport enjoyed by both men and women. Haven’t you ever heard of the LPGA? I’m sure any women who plays the game and many who do not wouldn’t appreciate the game being categories as something that men do and women….don’t. or can’t. or shouldn’t.

    The OP clearly stated that golf is central to the company, the area, and the community. The shouldn’t change something this important because three women do not play. They have already handled non-golfers and they should (1) stick with it or (2) change it but apply it to ALL non-golfers. They shouldn’t apply it to male non-golfers then give female non-golfers a further set of options to choose from.

    As a more equitable option- they should just offer ALL eligible employees the vacation with their choice of activities. If most choose golf, LET THEM PLAY GOLF. Don’t remove a popular option to cater to a small handful even if they are women.

    1. RobM*

      The employee’s choice of vacation with the *option* of it being a golf vacation would be a start yes. It would still potentially be an issue if the ‘main event’ remained a boozy golf weekend with the dudebros and going was seen or felt to be the only way to get ahead in the company.

    2. pamela voorhees*

      Yeah, but this is like saying that falconry is a sport enjoyed by both men and women. It might be technically correct, but there’s still a lot of elitism and other issues in the sport.

    3. OP*

      This will work, I think, as long as all of the management doesnt choose golf :).

      Working on a resort type option, with maybe one round of golf instead of the usual three. basically a morning of golf for some, instead of a golf-centric weekend.

      Thank you

  92. Fish girl*

    I think a few others have pointed this out, but this golf trip isn’t just excluding women. It can/will/ may already have excluded:

    -people with disabilities, injuries, and health issues: many people physically can not play golf. Even if they “look” healthy, they could have invisible illnesses that they don’t want to disclose to their coworkers.

    -people from lower economic backgrounds: golf has always been a middle to upper class sport

    -people from different countries and cultures: golf is not a popular sport everywhere. If someone grew up in another country, they would have less opportunities to learn it.

    These are more reasons to come up with an alternate to the yearly golf trip. There’s lots of good suggestions already, but using these reasons could help make your case for change even better. Hopefully it will diffuse the idea that you can’t have a golf trip because of women, but instead because your team recognized how many categories of people who could be excluded from the company’s networking, team-bonding, and reward system.

  93. HR needs a selling edge*

    Just a thought that if your org only now has women in sales you might want to keep your ear to the ground about other issues that might impact the new sales staff.

  94. Looking ahead*

    I really prefer the advice Allison is giving on moving completely away from golf. Honestly, it sounds like you have enough fun golf outings available to the team throughout the year. In the meantime, perhaps you could allow individuals (men and women) to select a golf outing or a spa day (or some other activity in that area). It’s still not the same – even if you factor in cost. You don’t get the networking in a spa like you do on the golf course. Until you find what the reward will look like – you should at least include another option – that anyone could select (not just the women).

    I’m supportive of golf lessons – but entirely separate from this event. And offered to anyone in sales.

  95. emmelemm*

    Just wanted to say, we’ve pretty thoroughly beaten up the OP in the comments, but props to him for writing in the first place. Seriously.

    1. Princess prissypants*

      I agree. I do wish he could be a little less stubborn about how-do-i-make-golf-okay and more open to the numerous what-else-can-i-do-that’s-not-golf comments.

        1. Deb Morgan*

          We appreciate it! It’s hard to hear that something you love can be harmful/exclusionary. Kudos for engaging with it.

  96. R*

    This is totally a bro vacation. Good ol’ boys also sprang to mind, but it just seems to be a very gender divisive trip. One company I worked with would pay to take people to a location both men and women could enjoy, like New Zealand, which makes way more sense. Don’t force people who don’t play golf to take a brocation. Just don’t.

        1. OP*

          Thank you. I appreciate your insight but especially the style of your responses. Some of the accusatory, assuming-the-worst style comments can really push you (me) away.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            I appreciate that you’re engaging even though there’s been a lot of criticism.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              And you’re a nice person, also. I am just wondering why you are working for such a prehistoric place.

              1. OP*

                I really love this company. It has done a lot of great things for employees and customers, offers retirement benefits that may be the best in the country. Lots of long term employees that are very happy here, and people that worked their entire career here and retired comfortably, regularly check in and thank us for their career and retirement.

                I know it is anonymous, but I am uncomfortable with how many internet strangers assume my company as a whole is dangerous, discriminatory, etc.

  97. Aphrodite*

    OP, I re-phased my question above in my post at 12:11 pm. I am still curious about the answer.

  98. CJ1S*

    As an experiment, replace “golf” with “makeup classes” and switch the gender roles. A minority of men today wear makeup and would be happy with this activity, but many would feel uncomfortable and out of place primarily because of their gender and the historical connotation of makeup being for women. Would you tell them to just hang out at the side of the room and pass out drinks? Or would you find another activity that can be enjoyed (or atleast tolerated) by everyone without a gender bias playing in?

    1. OP*

      I think the gender balance and usefulness in building business relationships is off in your comparison, but I get what you mean.

      We will not continue the trip as it was. A lot of great suggestions here. Thank you.

      1. CJ1S*

        Yes, I agree it’s not a likely business activity, just an example of something where men would feel excluded or uncomfortable.

        OP, your responses have been thoughtful and measured. I appreciate you addressing this issue and trying to find a workable solution – wish you the best in finding it!

  99. That One Person*

    I think it’s time to either opt for a setup that allows for multiple activities over that weekend so golf can remain one, but not the penultimate/only activity; or alternatively cycle what the big weekend activity is. For both of these it’d probably be good to get something of a suggestion box going wherein people can drop in say three preferred activities. With the three activity suggestion it’d be easy to align some common interests to make things a bit more free for all associates and who knows, may even liven things up a little with the freshness of something different. That way golf can remain in circulation, but I’d probably give it at least two years before making that the weekend one just to give other things a chance to cycle through.

    Otherwise if you really want to offer anything to people who don’t go, make it everyone rather than a specific group otherwise there’ll be other motivation issues cropping up. Some people are also likely to be upset at change because “Bleh, change, I liked how it was!” and here I’d suggest phrasing it in a way that the company maybe wants to liven things up a little, maybe experience something new together, etc so that it sounds more like a group decision. Basically avoid making it sound like the women are to blame and that it’s an overall, desired change for the sake of growth.

    As a homebody though I do not fault anyone who simply wants, or even needs the weekend to recuperate from work and prefers to do it alone/with friends and family. I might convince myself to go once in a while for the sake of work relationships, but I very much treasure my personal time as personal time.

  102. SigneL*

    OP says that “The sales team of 10-15 people in two branches are the only ones eligible for the trip because they are paid via commission, and therefore do not receive bonuses under our pay structure.” Why not change the pay structure so that everyone can receive a bonus?

    1. OP*

      The way it got to where we are now, was that basically they are in control of their own income. Which is not with the rest of the company. They are 100% commission and we pay a high enough margin that a bonus doesn’t really seem to fit.

      But there is always an opportunity for improvement.

    2. Important Moi*

      I’m just gonna put it out there that I know 100% commission people who are fine with that structure.

  103. Atlantis*

    I’ve gone golfing with my family, and that was bad enough. I really like the idea of having a nice dinner every quarter, giving out bonuses and then giving everyone the day off. Much less fraught with potential issues, and it may honestly be more appreciated.

    OP, I just wanted to say that I appreciate how much you’ve been interacting with the comments. When I read your first comments, I was concerned by how much they seemed to be sticking to the still-playing-golf idea, but I’ve seen your later ones that show you’re keeping an open mind not only for this trip, but towards other things that commenters have suggested might be problematic especially now that there are more female staff. Kudos to you for that, and hopefully the comments and archives here can give you some helpful ideas. I know you said in one comment that the golf trips are a regular thing in your industry, but that still doesn’t make it a good thing. You’re doing your company a favor by pushing back on this and making the reward open to all future combinations of staff, regardless of background.

    1. OP*

      Thank you for this. I did not handle the comments well strategically (responded without reading further down, too soon, etc).

  104. StaceyIzMe*

    I wonder if you could keep the golf trip and add in other activities so that golf is a key part of the experience (since it’s part of company culture/ bonding/ history) and diversify that way? Depending on where you golf, there may be other opportunities. Maybe add in a foodie thing. An art thing, if possible. A networking thing. You can probably remake the trip so that it’s a little more flexible, a little more inclusive and still features golf and beer. You could review on an annual basis based on employee feedback. (Because you might face this question if you had someone whose disability or physical condition prevented them from enjoying much golf? What then?) Also- if you distill what you’re hoping that your employees get out of the experience (other than great golf and great beer), it will be easier to translate that desired result into a mission that guides the selection of other activities and the addition of other venues. Just my two cents.

    1. OP*

      Thank you. I think we would have to limit the number of options to maybe two but yes I like the idea. It definitely needs to be less golf-centric as Allison and others have stated.

  105. CDM322*

    What about instead of having a corporate trip you do some kind of charity day that includes the whole company and a cause selected by you guys? It could be a local trip that you can all take together, volunteer some time, make some memories, and do good at the same time. It would be a paid day off too. I think people generally enjoy those type of events. Make a Wish, Big Brother/Big Sisters, etc there are TONS of organizations out there that would probably love your support.

  106. My Brain is Exploding*

    Truly, my brain IS exploding from reading all of these comments. Kudos, OP, for realizing this is an issue! You mentioned you have two teams in different locations, this is a once-a-year get-together, and you want the teams to interact. You didn’t say how far apart the locations are, but how about (in future years), teams alternate travelling to each others location? Two days, one overnight, not over a weekend. Hosting team provides activities for everyone — some educational (tour the office, tour the area, learn about their clients, swap team members to make sales presentations), some fun (opposite-handed office golf?); management cooks and serves lunch on both days (my Dad’s company used to do this, and management wore the gear and sweated over the grill!), and pay for a nice dinner out. This takes care of the getting the teams together along with management. As for perks: money fits everyone!

  107. Brian*

    What about keeping the trip, but adjusting the schedule of events. For example you could have a group event and dinner Friday night, Give EVERYONE Saturday as a free day and then regroup for dinner. Those who want to golf can do that, those who want to spend the day at the beach can do that, if people want to go to the spa they can etc. You could have different managers go to different activities so that all the networking isn’t concentrated in one place

    1. OP*

      Thank you. Sounds like a great idea. Splitting the management is what realy needs to happen (and less golf/more other activities).

  108. Leah Vaughn*

    My mother (who is 70, I am 30 & a woman) went golfing with her father every single day while growing up. Her mom never learned to drive as she could walk to the grocery store & ‘needed to go nowhere else without her husband’.
    She taught me how to golf when I was younger. I love the sport (even when old men whistle at me or ask me to get them a drink or hit on me when I’m there with friends or coworkers).

    I suggest going to a resort offsite. It could be something with a spa, or green, but I think it’d be more fun to include a place with a DRIVING RANGE. Be competitive, bet, trash talk, etc & if you don’t care, drink or hang out in the same area. This doesn’t exclude women or anyone else (I hope).
    Then groups are also allowed to break off between meals & happy hours to hit the spa, or the pool, see a movie, shop for new suits, or whatever else. These resorts tend to have access to child care & kid friendly things as well.

    That’s my suggestion.

    Also, thank you for reaching out – only by admitting that you don’t know how to handle the new landscape of having women like me in your office will you fix the issues it has. I would run like hell from a company that required me to golf or suffer the consequences, especially because of how I’ve been treated on courses (plus how my black or latino friends have been treated by drunken jerks from the old world of golf clubs).

    1. OP*

      Thank you for your comment. The resort option is looking like a winner.

      I hope you know we have never pressured anyone or forced anyone to play golf or leave. The reason I am here is to avoid that from happening now.

  109. AnotherSarah*

    If there MUST be a group event (even if it’s optional) on a weekend (which strikes me as a big IF), could it be to some sort of resort where golf was an option, but a pool was another and sitting in a garden was another and taking off to do a trail run was another? It sounds like OP’s company is providing lodging anyhow–could it be at a place with more options? (FWIW, I don’t like the idea of weekend retreat with my company and a bunch of folks wouldn’t be able to participate due to family responsibilities, which is also gendered.)

    1. TechWorker*

      I’m heading to a weekend retreat this weekend – partners and children invited. There’s a fancy meal on the Saturday and we could choose a variety of activities to sign up for – I think they’ve done a reasonable job of making it inclusive to be fair. (I’ve signed up for activity stuff but loads of people – men included – have signed up for the spa!)

      1. AnotherSarah*

        That sounds ideal! I see above that the OP was concerned about bonding–but I think we know from this site that enforced bonding has limited and repercussions, and that unexpected bonding (men at the spa!) can be great for business.

  110. animaniactoo*

    Well, I learned a lot today.

    OP, I appreciate how you have responded throughout this, even when you were more resistant to scrapping the whole outing earlier in the day.

    One thing that I am taking away is that you’re saying that there are a lot of invitations from customers to sales people for golf outings and while I am now convinced your golf outing has to change shape/practically be eliminated, it seems like you could help even that playing field. Particularly as you said there are a few men who don’t play or don’t play well. So it might be something to offer a set of golf lessons in general to anyone who wants to take them, given how golf-centric you say the area is. And maybe a couple of sets of clubs that can be checked out to play with for people who aren’t going to be into it enough to keep their own.

    But I think that also only works as long as you offer lessons in other things that will help your sales people with customer contact/bonding. If you limit it to golf, it’s going to be about the golf trip. There have to be other things in the area that customers are inviting your peeps to that aren’t their strong points either, and that they could use some help learning more about, so make sure you offer those options as well if you do this at all.

    1. OP*

      Thankyou for your comment. I agree. The trip is going to change dramatically or end all together. I screwed up and started responding to comments as I read them (without reading further down the page) and could never catch up.

      Ultimately I agree with Allison, and I also agree with you that offering lessons would be a good idea (completely unrelated to the trip). Pros can benefit from lessons, and beginners can too, so it is a pretty fair offer to anyone.

  111. TechWorker*

    I think cricket is another equivalent of this… my friend (a lawyer) spent some time looking for cricket lessons because her law firm held networking cricket matches she was essentially excluded from because the organisers said ‘oh well, you don’t know how to play’.

    (And with all the talk of ‘Cart girls’ I remember that at my company when there’s the yearly cricket match I usually hang out and babysit the barbecue.. but then there’s at least a few men doing the same >.<)

  112. RB*

    Maybe I missed something in all the comments but a lot of people were suggesting time off instead of the trip. However, if you’re 100% commission, that doesn’t really work. Time away from work, whether it’s sick leave, vacation, or company trip, is time that you’re not generating sales, i.e. commissions. They would have to offer a paid day off for that to work, obvs.

    1. OP*

      +1. Would have to be some kind of bonus which we have historically avoided for this type of compensation.

  113. cheluzal*

    1. You won’t find an event/activity that 100% of the people are ok with.

    .2. Am I the only woman who doesn’t get all offended over being called a girl? I am a girl, not a boy, and everyone knows I’m an adult…*sigh*

    1. RB*

      It’s in part because it’s not used in an equivalent fashion for men. Think of how often you used to hear a phrase like “the girls in the front office” but you’d never hear the obvious corollary such as “the boys in the mail room.” Not to mention all the other ways it doesn’t befit a woman of a certain professional stature. Or any woman who’s had to fight for respect in the workplace, in part because of undermining labels like “girls.”

    2. Argh!*

      That tradition is not universal and should be quashed anywhere it is still used. I rarely hear it even in my backwards state, and when I do I immediately point out that the person in question is an adult. If I want to call myself a girl, that’s okay (in a way) but in a workplace the word should be stricken from the vocabulary unless discussing actual children.

  114. WillyNilly*

    Hey OP, I don’t know where you are located, but every year my family goes on a vacation to an upstate NY resort (and honestly the state is somewhat irrelevant as I am sure similar resorts are everywhere). We see evidence of work groups while we are there (the groups themselves, signage reserving spaces, etc).

    This resort offers year-round activities, such as hiking, boating, lawn games, tennis, cross country skiing, snow tubing, and yes golf. They also have house tours (its a historic location), painting classes, guided meditation sessions, yoga, an award winning spa, an on-site museum, an on-site library, a collection of board games, a billards room, an indoor pool with accessibility lift, and countless more activities I can’t even think of to list. Basically something for every interest and physical ability level. Oh, and an amazing locally-sourced-food gourmet restaurant with several omivore and vegan options.

    Sure maybe every second of everyday isn’t super fantastic, but really I can’t imagine someone not liking anything offered.

    And surely, even people who like one activity, such as golf, a lot, would also like at least one other thing moderately well – so surely management could find a way to participate in activities with non-golfers.

    Find somewhere like that.

    1. OP*

      Thanks WillyNilly. I think we will be doing something like this. Offer two activites (probably not enough people to split it more than that) and split the management so no one is “missing out”.

      A resort destination sounds like a good option.

  115. Blue Eagle*

    I’m a woman, I started golfing when my company had a team-building outing, I was pretty terrible but it was a scramble format so it didn’t matter if we didn’t use any of my shots. And the men were totally fine because I followed the #1 rule – – get up there and hit and don’t make everyone wait.

    Turns out I enjoyed playing golf, took lessons and now play on our corporate league – – which is open to all employees.

    It makes me sad to read all of these comments that are so anti-golf. It may not be your favorite activity but it won’t kill you to play golf in a scramble format and network in the golf carts with your foursome once a year.

    1. OP*

      Thanks for your comment. I was hoping to hear more of this type of response (was dreaming that everything would continue as it was).

      I get that it isn’t for everyone, and certainly don’t want to force it on anyone. I did not expect the intensity of the golf and women don’t mix because history crowd. Just something I have never seen before.

  116. Argh!*

    The really disturbing thing to me is that there doesn’t seem to have been any input from the women on what to do. The paternalistic idea that it’s up to men to decide what women should do is even more wrong than having a tradition that the women don’t like. Not illegal, but wrong.

    1. Triplestep*

      To the OP’s credit, he has said that he wanted to have a few alternative ideas in hand before approaching the women for their opinions. He doesn’t want to put them in the position of being blamed for putting an end to something some people like.

  117. ZucchiniBikini*

    Look, I am not even going to touch the primary issue of the golf thing (everything I would say has already been said, and better, by others). I will just say this – I find the idea that the boys need fun weekends away from their families WHICH INCLUDES YOUNG CHILDREN really super gross. As someone who spouse had to go on work trips frequently when our children were small, it was always hard, always an imposition, and never EVER something either of us would have appreciated if not necessary for work. A night out here and there? Yup, definitely. Weekends away while the other spouse wrangles home, hearth and offspring? No, that isn’t a good thing, at all.

    I am now a freelancer so I give myself whatever rewards I feel like and can afford (off to a day spa for a few hours next week, yay!) Past employers, though, have done things like quarterly lunches or dinners, family picnics, movies, museum / exhibition events etc as rewards – all of which at least most of the employees have enjoyed, have beeb accessible to all, and haven’t encroached on off time too much. My spouse’s current workplace does a quarterly dinner, which he really enjoys and we do not find to be an impost at all on our lives, and once a year they do a scavenger hunt on a workday in the city, which they all seem to look forward to. There are ways to have fun and reward people that don’t read as gendered, exclusionary, or rely on the unpaid labour of people’s spouses.

    1. OP*

      I have seen this comment a lot here. I get that it can be read that way. All I can say is that as a once every year or two weekend trip, it has been well received. We are not asking spouses to do this often.

      We also know each-others families quite well, and if there were any undue hardship caused by the trip it would be addressed. Small team, long term employees. We know what each other are dealing with for the most part. I have young children and love them dearly, I love my wife dearly as well. I don’t see this as something against them. She loves the odd weekend away as much as I do, and I am happy for her to have the opportunity when it arises.

      Thanks for your comment and I will keep this in mind for any future getaway ideas.

      1. WillyNilly*

        No. Just, no.

        There is absolutely unconditionally no way you know how this trip is being recieved by the spouse left at home in other people’s families. No matter how close knit a group you are, couples and families have private feelings and conversations and issues that they do not share outside their homes.

        While there certainly there are truly equal partnership relationships, overwhelmingly, women carry childrearing a household duties. The likelihood that *none* of the left-out spouses resent the hell out of this trip is minuscule.

        1. OP*

          I am just generally disagreeing that it should off limits because people have children and may have an unbalanced burden to care for them. I am not saying it couldn’t cause a burden, but the burden goes both ways depending on who is out of town. My wife doesn’t work, but she still gets to take weekends away and I keep the kids. Sometimes for events she doesn’t necessarily want to attend, but feels obligated to. I don’t think offering this on the basis we do (every 18 months to 24 months) is causing undue burden, and if it is, people do not have to attend. That is just part of life, working, and raising a family. If your priorities are going to keep you at home, we aren’t penalizing anyone for it.

          Going out after work would cause the unbalance, and generally when that is the office culture it happens on a regular basis. I can happily ensure all of our employees can head home at 5:00 every day, no exceptions. And if they want to come on the trip, they can. If they don’t, they don’t.

          1. Not A Manager*

            You’re such a good guy and I can tell you’re really trying. Can I point out a few possible issues with this?

            “We also know each-others families quite well, and if there were any undue hardship caused by the trip it would be addressed. Small team, long term employees. We know what each other are dealing with for the most part.”

            This is what got you into this golf mess. Up until recently, your team was ALL MALE. I’m guessing it might be fairly homogeneous in other ways, too. So OF COURSE this set-up hasn’t caused undue hardship (or at least undue hardship that is likely to be reported back to the office) for reasons that you probably are aware of – women generally still shoulder more of the at-home childcare whether they work outside the home or not, there’s a lot of societal pressure on working men to be available for non-business-hours events and they might not report difficulty, etc.

            What you’re doing by perpetuating this, however, is maintaining a barrier to ever making your workplace more inclusive. The fact that something has not been a problem for your all male team doesn’t mean it won’t be a problem as you diversify. Insisting differently really risks perpetuating your monoculture. And insisting that it’s not a problem because you all know each other really well and you’re super tight-knit is a barrier in itself.

            “I don’t think offering this on the basis we do (every 18 months to 24 months) is causing undue burden, and if it is, people do not have to attend. That is just part of life, working, and raising a family. If your priorities are going to keep you at home, we aren’t penalizing anyone for it.”

            Except for the whole “access to managers and a chance to socialize” part of it.

  118. Blarg*

    This is a bit beyond the scope of the question and the comments.

    But maybe it’s time for OP, his company, his competitors, and his clients to reassess the business model that requires golfing to gain business. Outside of the annual event, it seems that a person is unlikely to succeed in a commission-based sales gig if so much of it is based on an unrelated-to-the-job activity.

    It seems that everyone is leaving a lot of cards on the table by making outdated assumptions about how and where business should be conducted. The brilliant strategist and problem solver who uses a wheelchair. The single parent who makes herself available at all hours for clients by phone but has to pick the kids up at school. The person who anticipates needs the client didn’t even have on their radar, but becomes a sneezy, eye watering mess near cut grass. All missing from your equation and profit potential.

    This doesn’t sound like a change OP can make unilaterally across his industry. But maybe the golf trip is the end of the beginning in transforming their workforce … and maybe also their market share and business model. Change IS hard, but I assume you don’t do anything else the way you did it twenty years ago — email, texting, electronic invoicing, dynamic inventory, etc. Evolving business practices to ensure you hire and retain the best people is just another QI project boosting your reputation and bottom line.

    1. OP*

      I wouldn’t say it is necessary. And I also wouldn’t say much if any business is conducted on the course. I would say that building relationships is key to being successful in the long term (which is true in many ongoing sales roles). The golf course is a common place to build or solidify relationships, but not something everyone must do to be successful.
      There is no direct connection between our business and golf. If that clears things up a little.

  119. always in email jail*

    May I offer some suggestions I would probably enjoy as a secretly-disabled person who wouldn’t want to be blatantly singled out?
    Is there a beach nearby? Could everyone go play volleyball but those who don’t want to can still be there to watch and relax at a beach? Then they can still participate in conversation and sideline discussions as people rotate in and out of the game, since most of the conversation would be on the sidelines anyway? I’m also thinking lunches by the pool of the hotel, etc. Things that are pretty much universally enjoyable and relaxing where people can do their own thing without being completely segregated?

    1. OP*

      I appreciate your input. Golf is probably the most active activity we would consider. But the point you are making is a valuable one and we will keep it in mind.

  120. Erin*

    Hi! I just want to say it’s awesome that you’re asking this question and trying to be fair. I haven’t read all the comments but I hope you didn’t get slammed for phrasing this the way you did, because I think you’re trying your best.

    What’s funny (and annoying) about this is that I think this completely depends on your office, and yours just happens to have women who don’t like golfing. At a prior job, there was an annual golf trip, and the women participated – and I know quite a few women who golf. You just got unlucky you have the ones who don’t enjoy it. At another prior job, a bunch of people were hockey people, and did coaching, and belonged to teams, and etc. It’s just how it rolls sometimes!

    I really like the idea of making it voluntary for everyone, or giving people the choice to take the day off. That’s how this would be handled if it was say, a 5K, or something that some people just physically can’t participate in, but they wouldn’t get penalized for it.

    In the end, regardless of how you decide to handle it, I think this is just one of those things where you’re not going to please everyone, so you might as well do what you feel is right.

  121. A Non E. Mouse*

    SUPER late to the party on this one, but I wanted to add as someone in a male-dominated company that’s part of a male-dominated industry, that our own company’s golf outings are pretty successfully co-ed and enjoyed, and the way they do that:

    1) The company assigns the 4 players who will be playing together, being careful to put together high-, mid- and low level employees while also being sure to spread out skill levels and the genders. The people that put it together really REALLY do a good job of this, and it shows. It makes sure that even the lowest gal on the totem pole is playing with an Executive, and that the guy with the best golf swing doesn’t have to play through all day (since he’s likely grouped with someone who swings a club like a ball bat).

    2) The “Cart girls” are both genders and are included in the day’s festivities. So they are acknowledged as part of the fun, not just Other People Present. It’s amazing how just making sure half are women and half are men change the tone of that role.

    3) We have some people with physical limitations to participation, and they are consulted, adaptations are made, and they are included as much as they are comfortable with. Some years this is a guy with a recent bypass riding in the cart for a few holes to watch, one year a lady with compromised immune system did the same, both were taken back to the clubhouse for drinks and AC when needed.

    I’m not saying the golf outing should stand, but to the OP: if you feel the women would be blamed for “taking away golf” if it’s cancelled this year, you might be able to mitigate it a little with some of the above.

    1. OP*

      Thank you for this! I think if we did play one round of golf on the trip (instead of three) these suggestions would go a long way in making it fair and fun for everyone.

  122. Oranges*

    Okay, I tried to find something that would be somewhat analogous and the best thing I found was (danger long rambling story time):

    You, LW, get a job in San Fran at a company that has been only gay males historically. You being there will change the culture. You know the deck is slightly stacked against you because you’re… you. But you know what? It’s a job. You take it.

    There is a big trip as a reward every year. This trip is to a gay burlesque conference. At the end of the conference there’s a “amateur dance off”. Most of the time at the conference is going to be making costumes and choreography. If you do this you’ll get face time and networking opportunities with your bosses. But at the end of the weekend you’ll have to perform. In front of everyone at work. And while they SAY that they won’t judge you, you don’t trust them since they talk a ton about how they’ve done at the dance off last year and you know whatever team you’re on won’t do as well.

    You don’t have any good options.
    1)You can go but NOT participate and get less face time with bosses. While also feeling extremely out of place: “Why is there this straight guy here doing nothing”.
    2) You can go and participate. And… yeah…
    3) You can not go.

    All bad options.

    1. Oranges*

      *Yes I realize it’s not a perfect anology due to historical power structures and everything. But I was going for the forced participation and the uncomfortable feeling I’d have on this golf trip.

      1. OP*

        Yea if I am being honest I don’t think I would expect a company full of gay guys to cater to the one straight dude… It would suck but I would also know going in that I wasn’t a good fit within the company culture.

        Like being allergic to dogs and applying to a dog friendly office…

        Not to say that the women who now work for us should have seen the culture and not applied. I am fully acknowledging we need to change, not them.

        1. Oranges*

          But would you stay there knowing that being straight will limit your opportunities at that company?

          See, the company is also losing out if they don’t change. They’ll be limiting their employee pool. Since more people who are straight won’t apply because they self-select out. Or if they do apply and get hired they’ll be looking for a new place where they’re more comfortable.

          I don’t think of it as catering, more like… making sure that more than one type of human can flourish in their company. In the above only gay males who like boylesque would flourish. Yes, others can work there but they won’t do as well.

          1. OP*

            Yea if it had a real impact on my success there I would not stay. But I don’t know if I would leave just because a retreat didn’t suit me and I thrived otherwise.

            I don’t want to paint this picture where the careers of the non golfers is sure to fail. But yes we definitely need an activity that will allow them the bonding experience with the leadership of the company regardless of their interest in golf.

            Thank you for your comments.

            1. Observer*

              The thing to keep in mind here is that in this case the retreat as it has traditionally happened COULD actually impact the success of the women who don’t golf. Also, it’s probably an indicator of a larger problem. Changing the retreat is probably a good start to changing the larger culture.

              So, yes it’s tough. But it’s well worth it.

        2. Oranges*

          And yes, you know you need to change. I give you full props for that. You’re resistant because it’s HARD to change and it’s HARD to give up something you want. You’ve been responsive and yes, a bit stubborn but I would be too. I think 99.99% of people in your shoes would be.

          It would take me at least a week of being grumpy before I could embrace the fact that this change will be good in the long run. I would know it but humans are… human and I would need that week to say “good-bye” to the trip as it used to be.

          1. OP*

            Haha… I was definitely a grump yesterday. It was the advice I needed to hear, but not the advice I wanted to hear.
            Feel much better about it all today. There is a 0% chance this trip will continue unchanged.

            2. ANon.*

              Hi, OP. First I want to say that I admire your participation and reflection on this – well done!

              I really like Oranges’ example above – I kept trying to formulate an adequate comparison for the situation, but Oranges nailed it!

              Because I think you really seem interested in learning and improving, I wanted to follow up on some of the issues you raised. You said that you wouldn’t expect this hypothetical company to cater to one straight dude (and compared it to dog friendly place + having allergies – that’s a whole other can of worms, but a convo for another time).

              The issue, though, is that gender is a protected category. Legally, EVERY company must cater towards men and women. If a company’s practices are leading a certain protected category to self-select out, then that’s an issue: it’s considered discriminatory.

              For example, if there was a company where all the employees liked to only where yellow shirts, and thus non-yellow-shirt-wearers self-selected out of the company by not applying, or weren’t able to attend the yellow shirt networking parties with management, then that would be totally ok! Yellow shirts aren’t a protected category!

              You may argue that your company/industry happens to have a lot of golf enthusiasts. Since golf isn’t a protected category, that should be fine, too, right? Well…not quite. For one, as others have mentioned, golf has historically been discriminatory towards women. That’s obviously not great. But, more importantly, is the result of the activity. Sure, many women might enjoy golf, but if you’re finding that generally women are opting out of golfing activities while the men are opting in, then that’s an issue.

              If, at the yellow company, the company found its yellow-shirt-wearers networking party was disproportionately attended by men because women tended to not always wear yellow, then you’re back into discrimination territory. (Same goes if women disproportionately self-selected out of the hiring process because they were not as enthusiastic about wearing yellow every day.)

              So, if your sales team was equally composed of men and women, and an equal amount were not interested in/very interested in golfing activities, it would be totally fine for you to continue having golfing team outings. Theoretically, the issue is less about golf (although, it is because of the historic sexism) and more about making sure all protected categories are receiving equal treatment (including networking opportunities).

              2. Observer*

                Well, it would be fine legally. But as a practical matter, you might want to rethink that culture. Why would you want to risk losing top talent over something like this? Or missing out on a substantial market opportunity? Or missing out on potential product improvements?

                There is a tons of evidence that diversity really improves bottom lines in all sorts of ways. Look at the return of public companies with significant diversity on their boards vs ones that don’t have diversity. Look at companies who have missed whole product lines because they were so focused on one demographic.

                Or just look at the whole technology sector for some lessons on what NOT to do >sigh<

                1. Pizza Boi*

                  This is the point I was trying to make above but with a bit more patience. Nicely put.

  123. OP*

    OP Here.

    Ok. I am resigned to the fact that it is too big to respond to everyone. I also want to acknowledge that I did a really poor job of responding to Allison, and started responding to the comments way too early without reading enough of them first. It got big fast and was really difficult to keep up (no chance).

    Allison, thank you so much for taking on this question. Because you did, our company is going to benefit greatly, our female employees will be treated better because of you and the comments here. We are brainstorming for alternatives that will severely tone down the “golf” aspect of the trip, and provide more inclusive activities that everyone can participate in and enjoy.

    I know a lot of these kind of trips strike out with employees, become a burden, and are not universally enjoyed. We will be very open to the idea that something like this just might not work for everyone, and if that is the case, just scrap it.

    Thank you to those that did not assume the worst about every aspect of me, my company, our culture, etc. I take a lot of pride in my job and am here to improve things. I appreciate the support, constructive criticism, and ideas that were put out here. I have been reading this blog daily for awhile now, and although I don’t agree with where the comments go sometimes I do usually agree with Allison, and my knowledge of what can make a workplace fair, successful, appealing and professional has evolved dramatically because of you.

    I will update Allison when we make a decision, whatever it is, and how it goes. Thanks again all!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Heya! Came back to see what had transpired since I logged off last night. 2 things:

      1) Upthread somebody mentioned a resort that they know of that had something like 20 activities available and you said that you thought only 2 would be possible based on size of group, in order not to split it too small. My former school does a similar thing on reunion weekend in terms of activities – but it’s more a question of *2 at a time*. So for every time frame there are two available activities. Given that it used to be 3 rounds of golf, it sounds like you could split into 3 time frames and therefore be picking 6 activities total. That will be especially useful if you make sure there’s at least 1 relatively passive (in terms of physical capabilities) activity for each time frame.

      So for instance, your weekend could be Fri arrival, afternoon/evening activity, dinner, Saturday morning activity, Saturday afternoon activity, dinner, Sunday morning early brunch, off home. Brunch could potentially be split into two locations for two different types of cuisine and make it more of a “one more on the way out the door, if you feel like it” and will probably shake up the groups in a much different way than something like a golf/trivia challenge and scavenger hunt/spa time split would.

      2) Alison will probably appreciate if you spell her name right. ;)

      1. OP*

        1) For sure! Yea having golf be an option, or one of several activities but not the point of the trip is the only way it would work.
        2) DAMN

        Going to go climb in a hole…

    2. viva*

      I would love to read what you/the company eventually settles on. Change can be a great thing! I believe you’re on the right path to creating a great culture shift at your company because you’re asking questions and are open to actually implementing changes. Best of luck to you.

  124. OP*

    PS. Is there any way to sort the comments by time? Would love a way to more easily see the new comments.

  125. CanCan*

    Is anybody else seeing that the long weekend aspect of this whole thing is a problem? There are not many long weekends in a year, especially during summertime (presumably… since you’re golfing). Those long weekends are typically treasured by employees – don’t take that away from them (via a compulsory OR even optional retreat)!

    This kind of activity would be no fun at all for me, because of the weekend commitment. On long weekends this would especially infuriating, but very annoying on any weekend – I don’t have enough time with my family, or to do my personal life stuff as it is. I’m guessing I’m not the only one.

    Come up with activities during the workday (possibly even golf) as long as it’s inclusive to everyone, the company provides equipment for anybody who doesn’t have it, and optional.

    1. OP*

      The long weekend aspect doenst cover a holiday or anything like that, if that is what your meant. We would take a Friday off (ususally spring or fall, not summer) and return first thing sunday.

      I get the weekend thing, but we arent robbing what would be a memorial day or labor day long weekend.

      Would probably work better to use a Thursday/Friday and return Saturday morning.

  126. Easter*

    This has probably already been said – because dang there are a lot of comments! – but no matter which way you try to cut it or what lessons you offer or concessions you make or details you tweak, OP, you just can’t remove the sexist history from an “all dudes golfing trip.” I don’t care how nuanced your situation is or how earnest and sincere your intentions may be, the stigma is there. And I understand that it seems impossible to find an alternative but if you really want to be inclusive, you’re going to have to. There is no getting around it.

    Also, to be frank, it kind of sounds like you came here looking for validation to keep holding your golf trip and if that’s true, well then you do you. But I will say that for every customer who loves to golf with your salespeople (so see? wouldn’t the female salespeople love free golfing lessons?) there is another customer who will *never* do business with your company because they’ve heard that y’all still hold an all dudes golfing trip and damn is that sexist.

Comments are closed.