open thread – October 29-30, 2021

by Alison Green on October 29, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,339 comments }

{ 1,339 comments… read them below }

  1. Bb2*

    Ideas for jobs to look into?

    Degree in civil engineering, worked 5 years for an engineering consulting firm. Changed careers and have been Director of parks and recreation for a small town for 4 years now.

    I’ve been job hunting for 2 years but since I have no real career direction in mind I feel hopeless. Not willing to move so I’ve started to look into fully remote jobs but that is so vast.

      1. Bb2*

        I don’t want to go back into engineering as it didn’t really click with me. I like problem solving but don’t like paying attention to the finer details.

        Parks and Recreation job prospects are limited around here. I don’t really like the all consuming hours since you have events on weekends and nights.

        So yes something different.

    2. The Smiling Pug*

      Well, what exactly are you looking for with a new job? I’ve found that looking at remote jobs is a bit overwhelming. Have you tried narrowing down the WFH positions available by looking at what they require? I’ve found that helps sometimes.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      I would start by looking at your skills/interests/’loves & hates’ first. And I mean literally list them out somewhere. Once you have more of an idea of how you want to spend your working time, you can start looking for careers/jobs that would work for you.

      1. Bb2*

        I worked through What Color is Your Parachute after reading about it here. It did give me some perspective on my likes and dislikes but I still feel lost.

        I like problem solving, researching, coordinating, planning and consulting. I don’t like dealing with the public as I am introvert and hate conflict. I really value normal working hours, a supportive team atmosphere and someone above me giving me direction/guidance.

        1. Princess Trachea-Aurelia Belaroth*

          There’s another book called The Pathfinder that I’ve seen recommended.

          You might look into fulfillment jobs. (Fulfillment as in coordinating between warehousing, factories, and customers.) My sister does this for a company that manufactures and sells electronic components to business like vehicle and electronic manufacturers. There’s a bit of customer service, but it’s to companies and not the public, since individuals don’t generally need to regularly purchase hundreds of thousands of capacitors. They do have to deal with people in sales and in the factories and warehouses, but that’s also not the public, and they have their supervisors to back them up. Most of her work is checking inventory against customer orders to determine what needs to be manufactured, and apportioning inventory to customers and getting it shipped. There’s a bit of creative problem solving, within a framework of routine.

          I don’t know if that’s super well-suited, it’s just the closest thing I can think of from my close circle.

          2. Bb2*

            That was helpful and does sound like a job i would be interested in and could do. I’ll also check Pathfinder out. Thank you

        2. Kiwiapple*

          If you work with anyone, you are going to run into conflict at some point…it isn’t just the public.

            1. unpleased*

              What jobs were you doing with the public that contained so much conflict? What do you mean by “public”? And, for that matter, what do you mean by “conflict”? Are you talking about having to do some work to fill a need, or dealing with actual upset people? My point here, adding to what Kiwiapple is saying, is that you need to define what you mean by these terms. I wonder if your definition of conflict is actually so broad it might cause you to pass up options. As well, introvert or not, I wonder whether you might need help developing coping skills for dealing with conflict and that might help you feel like you have more options.

        3. CatLady*

          Sounds like either Project or Product Management might be something to look into. You’re solving problems with people instead of designs but it can be a lot of fun. I’m an ambi/slightly intro-vert and yeah, it takes some effort but its good effort for good life skills.

          1. Bb2*

            Thank you. I have thought about product or project management. It’s such a vast field that I really need to buckle down and hone in on what I want to be managing as when you Google ‘remote product management’ a billion jobs come up.

        4. Ann*

          Have you considered proposal management within engineering or related consulting firms? Someone with a technical background is really highly valued in this role.

        5. Nethwen*

          Based on this comment, I would strongly recommend NOT working at a public library, in any capacity, but especially front desk/public service/circulation/programming work.

          Reasons: dealing with the public – whose expectations vary and rarely match reality, conflict – internal and external, notorious for unclear/conflicting/unreasonable directions, notorious for unreasonable expectations of employees, weekend and evening hours, often atypical or unstable hours, really good chance that there won’t be a supportive team environment – at least on the institutional level.

          Of course, each workplace is unique and there are some good libraries to work at, but professional burnout and disillusionment is rampant, yet those unhappy people continue in the profession for decades.

          That doesn’t help you know what might interest you, but at least you can rule out one profession all together.

    5. Anon for this*

      It sounds to me like you could have a great skillset for something agriculture-ish. Shameless plug for my employer Cargill who hires a ton of engineers, and remote workers.

    6. Beehoppy*

      What discipline of civil engineering did you practice? Why did you leave the field? Would you have any interest in going back? There are lots of different paths you could take with that degree.

      1. Bb2*

        Structural engineering. I left because I don’t think I’m a good engineer or have the passion for it. I got great grades in school, I can do the work but I never understood the concepts behind what I was doing.

        Work colleagues would debate about how to solve a problem and I just wanted to be told what to do. Tell me what mathematical problem to solve or what to model but for me to figure it out on my own never really clicked.

        1. lost academic*

          Certain kinds of programming jobs might be a decent fit if you have that skillset. I was going to suggest environmental consulting but based on the follow up I’m replying to, I don’t think you’ll like it. A lot of prospective employers want to hire people with engineering backgrounds because they are going to be good and interested in problem solving somewhat independently so you’re going to really have to think outside the box if you want to avoid that. You might need to really entirely change fields and adjust expectations, particularly for salary.

          1. Generic Name*

            I agree. Above you said that you enjoy problem solving, but here you’ve said that you don’t like debating how to solve a problem and just want to be told what to do. Problem solving requires independence and creative thinking, so I’d re-evaluate if you really like problem solving.

            How do you feel about CAD or other drafting? If you just want normal hours and to do what you’re told, being a drafter seems like it could be a good fit. A/E firms, consulting firms, local governments all have drafters on staff.

            1. Bb2*

              Drafting is a good idea, I did do a little of that and enjoyed it. You are right that it fits the bill of being told what to do. Thanks!

              1. Mgr101*

                Don’t know if you learned any GIS as part of your past experience but that might be a good fit too and may have more growth potential than CAD.

            2. Bb2*

              You are also correct. I say I like problem solving but I should really say I don’t like technical/engineering problem solving as I am not confident in my engineering ability.

              Parks and Recreation gives me the ability to problem solve in less technical terms…..how to coordinate three events going on at once, determining how many volunteers are needed and anticipating what you will need them to do, broken xyz at park and how to fix it, staff member calls out sick so you have to rearrange to make it work, etc

              1. JustForThis*

                That sounds as if you might like logistics? (Full disclosure: I have no personal experience whatsoever in that field.)

                1. Bb2*

                  Thanks, someone else in the thread talked about logistics as well. Definitely something I will look into.

            3. Quinalla*

              Agreed on drafting, it might be right up your alley and already having experience in A/E you’d probably have no issue getting a job. So many firms are hiring right now (Work for an MEP firm myself).

          2. Bb2*

            I don’t have any skills in computer software/programming.

            I know I am burnt out in my current job so my mental state isn’t the best but all I really want in my next job is something that offers me a good work life balance and a job i don’t hate or feel inadequate at.

            Building a life outside of work that I enjoy is my priority so I am totally okay with adjusting my expectations and salary in my work life.

            1. NACSACJACK*

              Those can be acquired. My employer and others often hire others with a technical background and train them in programming. We actually recruited some of our internal customer service staff when automation and CoVid-19 reduced our workload. Think on it.

              1. Bb2*

                I am open to it. What job titles would I look for? I have seen people write on here before about companies hiring people with technical skills and training them but I don’t know where to start with that.

                I did turn down a job offer to be a client serve specialist with the recreation software system I use thinking it would be a good step to get into that industry. (The company was not well run and the pay was way to low for me to able to make it work)

                Is getting in on the customer support side what I should be looking for? Or can I jump in somewhere else?

              2. Bb2*

                I am open to it. What job titles would I be searching for? I have seen it written on here a couple times that companies do hire people with technical backgrounds and train them but I don’t know what I should be looking for to get into that field.

                Should I be looking to get in on the customer support side and hope to work my way up?

    7. Stephanie*

      What aspect of your past jobs did you like? Who did you like working with? Did you like more structure or little structure? I found this helpful when I was trying to figure out roles and companies. I imagine your background might lend itself well to project management. But perhaps ask what parts of a job you liked, you could tolerate, and you absolutely refuse to do.

    8. WomEngineer*

      What kind of work do you enjoy? If it’s the structures side, then aerospace, transportation, and construction are options. If it’s the people side, then perhaps city planning or even themed entertainment. Also consider startups, as your director-level experience could be something they’re looking for.

      If there are any community colleges or local universities (or others with online programs), you could look into a certificate program. That way you expand your skill set for a possible career change. Also you can take advantage of their career services and alumni network.

    9. Tex*

      Maybe hook up as a consultant with several landscaping firms? It would be civil engineering but also take into account your parks experience. The projects would be vastly more interesting than a regular civil job.

      1. Tex*

        And I mean not your average landscaping firm, but higher end boutiques that specialize in building parks and outdoors spaces. The kind of projects that get written about in architecture magazines. You might have to do some digging to find them.

        Also, high end pool designers (if you have a flair for design).

    10. Sangamo Girl*

      I’m construction industry adjacent and we hire tons of PEs to be project managers. Get some PM experience and then more options open up on other fields.

    11. Anonymous Koala*

      Hi fellow engineer! Does your local county/city/state environmental or planning office have jobs near you? They might be a good fit for your skill set. Otherwise are you willing to travel? Consulting might be a fit as well. I also second the PM experience and certification – it’s incredible useful in many technical fields and it’s not that time consuming/expensive to get.

      Also, if you feel like you would enjoy engineering but struggle with figuring out what strategy to approach problems with, I would also suggest talking to senior engineers in your field about this and maybe auditing some entry level grad engineering classes to gain experience. MIT open source courseware has some good online lectures that are free to the public. You could also volunteer with engineers without borders or habitat for humanity – lots of experienced engineers there and opportunities to problem solve with your peers. Learning how to solve a problem from scratch vs building a model is a completely different skill set that’s (unfortunately) not taught in some engineering programs, but you can absolutely learn it with practice.

      1. Bb2*

        Thank you. I do have local county/town government that have jobs. You are right about how I can still learn with practice and guidance. I do wonder if I left the field too soon and if I just toughed it out if it would have clicked.

        PM certification is something I have thought about, I might as well do it. I like learning and at least it will make me feel like I am moving forward with something.

        1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          I worked very briefly (only left because another place offered me my dream job) in a local government assessor’s office. We cubicle workers just did property history checking, mostly straightforward but with some interesting research involved on some. But there was also a drafting team who worked on the technical end with property planning, I think for zoning and utility compliance in rehabs and new structures. That kind of sounds up your alley.

    12. AP.*

      With experience in local/state government as well s with civil engineering, the Department of Transportation comes to mind.

    13. Reg eng*

      What about the water sector? City, county or state level regulatory work might be up your alley since you already have some public sector experience. Think public health! Personally it’s a rewarding career for me.

      (My bachelor degree is in civil and my PE is environmental so it works for me)- I’m wondering if you could find something at the city, county or state level that would use your degree but not be design oriented.

      My job is fully remote, but I do have to interface with folks in person a few times a year. Regulatory so the engineering background helps but I don’t need to design anything.

    14. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      What about policy/lobbying? Bring your expertise to someone else’s table. Seems like a considerable of that would be research and stuff you could prepare remotely.

    15. Zona the Great*

      I work for a state agency where I am a program manager overseeing funding coming in as a federal formula outlay which is used for local agency projects around the state. I work with engineers but I am not one or use any engineering skills except knowing how to read plans. I am fully remote as is most others like me in my state. Similar jobs exist in Park and Rec, Trails, Arts and Culture. Your experience and skills lend themselves directly to this type of work. Very rewarding. No street-level work.

      1. Bb2*

        Thank you, this sounds like something that really combines my work experience I have so far and something that I might enjoy. What are some typical job titles that I would search for?

        1. Sandman*

          Local MPOs could have positions that would be similar to this, too. Your engineering background would be helpful but (depending) not necessarily central to the job.

          1. Zona the Great*

            Yes exactly! MPOs and COGs are good places to look for these jobs. These are federally required planning agencies so jobs are typically very secure. Some states have a good centralized agency who represents all the COGs and MPOs where you can look in one place for jobs. My state isn’t like this so you’d need to do a search for all your state’s COGs and MPOs (some agencies are both the COG and the MPO). In my state, these jobs are typically called Program Manager or Program Administration. Perhaps Planning and Development is another keyword to use.

            I look for most of my jobs through Governmentjobs dot com. Some states don’t participate in that site but most do.

    16. Nesprin*

      I’m going to suggest temping, especially if you can find an engineering specialist temp agency. At this point, I’d suggest trying out a mess of different jobs/industries/environments and seeing what clicks.

    17. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have any specific jobs/careers to look into, but I do have an idea for a process:

      When you talk to family/friends/acquaintances (or scroll through Ask a Manager comments), take note when someone mentions a job that you think sounds interesting. Then, go to indeed (or any other big job page) and plug in “job title” and your location. Browse the listings and apply to any that catch your eye. You can also do a more in-depth hunt if any career paths seem like an especially good match.

      It’s kind of a scatter-shot approach, but should expose you to wide range of jobs that are out there.

      1. Bb2*

        Thank you, this is something I have been doing occasionally and has really helped. I’ll keep doing it more consciously.

    18. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I wonder if there’s anyone out there designing playgrounds because a civil engineer with Parks and Rec experience would seem like a perfect match.

      1. pancakes*

        There are, but they’re landscape architects. I don’t know if all of them are, but my friend who does it went to grad school for landscape architecture.

      2. ScruffyInternHerder*

        Splash pads. The PE (civil/structural) in my family designs a TON of splash pad infrastructure.

    20. Civilian*

      US Army Corps of Engineers! They have all kinds of roles for engineers, all over the country, some remote working options (telework at minimum). I’m not an engineer but I have worked for them over 20 years and love it. Good luck!

    21. Random HR Lady*

      I work for a transportation department for state government. We are always looking for civil engineers and there are lots of job we have that aren’t being engineers but prefer the degree.

    22. this is ka*

      I work as a project manager for construction projects. I work for a large business entity rather than a general contractor, so there is more organization-driven planning and organization. I don’t have an engineering degree, but many of my PM colleagues do. It sounds like a potential fit for you as well.

  2. Should i apply?*

    Help! Introvert told I need to develop relationships with our stakeholders (department leads of other departments). Best advice?

    I had a discussion about getting a promotion with my manager yesterday (which honestly was stressful in itself). We went over the job description for the next level, and my manager agreed that I was already demonstrated that I could do the technical work, but I needed to show that I could “consistently” drive internal decisions with stakeholders.

    I have done this on occasion, but its not something I already consistently do because at my current level I am not expected to, and it isn’t usually needed. (Does anyone else find it frustrating that to get a promotion you have to show you are already doing the work on the next level but you don’t have the authority of being on that level?)

    He thinks in order to be able to do this I need to develop closer relationships with the stakeholders. While I can see the advantage of that, I don’t know where to start. These aren’t people that I normally interact with. We are still mostly working from home (and some of them are on another continent). They are all super busy, as in scheduling a meeting is a nightmare, and besides the “develop a relationship” I don’t currently have any reason to contact them.

    So for those of you are good at developing work relationships, especially people higher up than you, that you don’t interact with much, what are your tips?

    1. dresscode*

      That’s tricky, but what about a remote lunch date? I used to have those once a month with someone at my level in a different department. No agenda was set, just a quick chat to talk about work or not work. might be kind of weird at first, but maybe you could have your boss give you a soft opening, or join the first one to make it more comfortable?

    2. ATX*

      This is a strange recommendation – usually developing relationships with other people involves working on a project with them or working on a project that produces a product they will see and/or something that benefits them.

      If neither of those things are happening, it’s weird to assume that you can just reach out to a bunch of randos that you have zero contact with. I’m very outgoing and an extrovert, and even that would feel uncomfortable for me. I would never reach out to someone just for shiz and giggles.

      I would push back and ask what your manager means by that and get a little more information. Perhaps they weren’t clear or they know something you don’t. Either way, I’m a big fan of asking for clarification or being upfront if you’re not comfortable with something.

      1. Should i apply?*

        That is pretty much what he is telling me to do, and when I have expressed that I struggle with that. His suggestion was “find someone to coach you”

        1. Reba*

          like, such as… your boss maybe? for goodness sake.

          In seriousness, in my workplace it would be totally fine to reach out to these people (or the person that handles their schedule) and introduce or reintroduce yourself, say that your boss is encouraging you to talk with higher-ups to learn more about the big picture of the business, and ask for a 30 minute virtual coffee break.

          It sounds like your workplace is a bit more hierarchical, and moreover that you don’t know these other department heads. Could you ask your boss to do the introducing emails or just like, slightly facilitate this in some way like giving the stakeholders a heads-up that you will be reaching out?

          This is awkward and a bit frustrating but imo has no bearing on introversion. I don’t know if it will help you to set that aspect of the situation aside.

        2. ATX*

          Replying to below and to you – your boss won’t be your mentor (assuming what’s what they’re referring to). Does your company have a mentor program? Perhaps your boss could reach out to someone and have a recommendation.

        3. CatLady*

          Does your organization have a mentorship program? If so, I suggest enrolling ASAP.
          If not, are one of those stakeholders someone you’ve interacted before and you admire? If so then screw-up your courage and write a cold email: Hi, My name is Should i apply and I’m the xxxx on yyyy team. I am looking to advance my career and it was suggested that I find a mentor. I respect the work you did on zzzz and I was wondering if you would be open to a mentor-mentee relationship? If not, could you recommend someone who might be?
          In a mentorship you have to be willing to be a bit vulnerable and it can be hard to do that with the boss. If this person has never been a mentor before but is open to the idea, I suggest researching what the relationship should be like and be ready to drive it as needed.

        4. Ugh, really?*

          I’m going to read between the lines here. Is it possible he’s an extraverted conservative white male? It sounds like he may be part of a corporate “bro” culture of good ol’ boys who promote people like themselves. If you want to get ahead, you’re expected to be part of the tribe or fraternity, talk like they talk, do what they do, and so on. Depending on the group, you might be expected to know football, golf, drink beer, etc. Do you want to be part of that group? (I don’t.)

          1. Down to the minute*

            Not sure why you automatically decided the boss must be a “conservative.” I feel like I can make a pretty good guess, though.

            1. Three Flowers*

              Conservative can mean things other than political leanings… A corporate old boys’ club is definitely a conservative work culture, in that it has not managed to accept much change since women started working outside of the telephone exchange.

              1. Down to the minute*

                Nah. I think she hit two spots on the AAM commenter bingo card — bashing men and bashing people who don’t agree with them politically.

    3. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      I have found the key to developing interpersonal relationships is to learn what each person’s currency is, meaning what is important to them that they will want so that they see me as a valuable asset to them? If you can identify this with the individual stakeholders you can begin to develop those relationships with them.

      1. Chilly Delta Blues*

        This could be a good way in. For my job the currency is photos. I’m in a field office but work with our HQ staff a lot, they see official photos of our work but the nature of my job means I have access to more everyday photos and stories of what’s happening good/bad/ and sometimes “you can’t make this stuff up”. I’ve learned a casual “this happened today and I thought you’d enjoy it (photo attached) goes a long way with relationship building while not requiring extra commitment on anyone’s part.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is there any way that you can make yourself be the go-to informational resource for those stakeholders? If your manager is regularly interacting with them, can you get them to delegate some of that coordination and information-response work to you?

      Also, are there any working groups or other staff-to-staff contacts that you can get on? Those are a good way to get noticed and to start to build peer relationships that can turn into higher-level contacts.

      The goal of both of these things to be for Stakeholders A and B to tell their staffs “hey, find out what’s going on in OP’s department with the annual teapot certification program.”, and for those staffs to naturally want to contact you instead of bothering your boss.

      1. Should i apply?*

        Thats pretty much already happening. I have no problems interacting with my people at my level and am considered a SME in my area, but I am trying to move from technical expert to more a strategy based role.

        My manager is telling me that I need to develop relationships directly with the managers, so that when needed I can get their inputs directly, or tell them they can’t get what they are asking for without them freaking out.

        1. Getting ahead*

          As you’re working with the people at your level, can you start asking them for more insight into the why behind what they’re asking (where that’s appropriate). For example, if you run a report for them, and they want different data next month, start digging into how that department needs are changing, and they may connect you with their management organically.

          Alternatively, talk to your boss about setting up routine check ins – quarterly, twice a year, whatever cadence makes sense for your group – with those managers to start anticipating what changes might be coming down the pipeline – or inform them of what’s coming down yours. If your manager is already having meetings like this, pick one or two groups, and ask if you can lead the discussion on what’s relevant in your area for those groups.

        2. relationships in buckets*

          I have no problems interacting with my people at my level and am considered a SME in my area, but I am trying to move from technical expert to more a strategy based role.

          I think that tells you your answer. Do some brainstorming with some of your peers about some strategic issue that needs solving and then start having investigative meetings with stakeholders.

          Think like this: We have a current pastry distribution process and would like to change it. So I’m talking to all the stakeholders about their relationships with pastry, their experience with our process, and what they’d like to see.

          Then, when you have a lot of suggestions, you’ll also have a lot of relationships. And, you’ve got a good start on fact-finding for an actual strategic plan.

          Two birds.

    5. Anon for this*

      Get involved in ‘engagement’ activities with your company – like the Women’s Network or the LGBT alliance if you have them. Most of theses groups love to have allies involved even if you don’t actually fit the demographic of the group. Even just a community giving group if your company has one. These roles often give direct access to people in power at your org.

    6. gsa*

      I’m married to an introvert. In order to get around that, she began attending industry events, got on the city appearance commission, and other various organizations where she could “practice” meeting and greeting/making small talk.

      She still an introvert, but if she hast to be an extrovert she can flip a switch.

      I don’t know how long it took her to get there, but I know she started about 10 years ago.

      1. Should i apply?*

        I am not shy and I don’t have problems with small talk. I have problems with reaching out to people for “no particular reason”. I can’t get over the feeling that I am bugging super busy people for no reason other than “develop a relationship”

    7. Combinatorialist*

      So you have to kind of do this organically but a few things I have found to be super helpful in developing work relationships with people higher than you:
      – ask them for advice (like advice you actually want, not asking for the sake of asking)
      – discuss with them what they see as the biggest challenges of their department that your department could help with
      – offer new perspectives that are harder to see when you are in the weeds of the “way things are done”
      – when working with them, work to give them what they need instead of sticking to what they say they want. Approach things as “what is the best I can give them to address their real pain points” and not just “what do I need to do to meet the requirements”.
      – know what you can uniquely (or less commonly) offer them. What makes your perspective valuable and how can you show that? Believing this might be the hardest part.

      Some of this is hard and requires skill (you need to make sure you really really understand what their pain points are, for example). However, keeping these things in mind have helped me build those relationships. This leads to my regular project leads giving me opportunities to be the technical lead on their projects (either officially or unofficially) which in turn is leading to being promoted to the project lead level.

      (Also, yes, we promote the same way of having to show you are doing a level up without the authority. It is frustrating, and we have the additional frustration of having no way of recognizing people who are exceptional at their level. Our “exceeds expectations” is “doing work a level up” and there is no “being totally awesome at your level.” Which is super annoying).

    8. CharChar*

      A) Completely with you on the frustration part around promotions – especially when your managers have full confidence in you being able to do the part, just need that experience before you can get the promotion…
      B) While everybody is super busy, in my experience everybody has 15min at some point in their calendar to help others develop and to talk about themselves (read: people like to share how awesome they are). Be honest here, that you’re actively developing to a certain role and that one of the steps you’re taking is to learn about the other roles/stakeholders as much as possible as you expect to be working with them frequently. You expect that this knowledge will form a much better working relationship in the future, 15min now may save hours in the future. Go in with an open mind and no assumptions, as I often find that I knew 20% of what they did and those conversations are a great way to fill in the other 80%.

      That 15min conversation is also for you to ask:
      ‘hey next time you’re deciding on x topic, could you share your thought process with me?’
      ‘When you decided on y, I would like to know what were some of the pro/cons of that approach vs z’
      –
      “Driving internal decisions” as a skill to me is often about understanding all the restrictions stakeholders have and finding solutions for them before they think about problems.

      I know this is ouuuuut of your comfort zone, but that is ok – this gets easier. And in my experience, developing this relationship building skill is necessary in most careers.
      PS. Also always ask for a book recommendation, great thing to follow up with them after you’ve read the book :)

    9. SlimeKnight*

      When I started where I am now, the organization was going through a lot of changes. I made myself an expert on a new program they had implemented, so that even people in other departments were reaching out to me for help. This allowed me to build a lot of relationships across the organization, when before I was siloed. So if there is any area that cuts across your company where you are/could be a Subject Matter Expert, I would start there. For example, you could offer to provide training.

    10. Gnome*

      For clients, that’s tricky, as you know. If there are folks (e.g. your boss) who interact with them more regularly or handle those contacts, I suggest you ask to be included to ‘listen in’ on calls (plan on not saying much, maybe just an introduction, at least at first) or to attend representing the technical staff (in case there are questions). They will at least get to see your name and/or face… And if the main contact goes out on leave or something, you are primed to be a backup contact since you know what is going on.

    11. A*

      Hi, fellow introvert here. I think I’m good at developing relationships at work (I was recently promoted and I think this is one of the reasons). First off, I grew into it as opposed of making the most of something that comes naturally to me. I find it helpful to detach my work persona from my non-work self and see it as a skill that I needed to learn and develop. As to practicalities, I am a senior manager myself and have been managing an introvert who wanted to get more experience in leading and management. I don’t think you can develop closer relationships with someone you don’t work with in the first place without your manager’s help. The way I did this was having this person shadow me at some senior meetings, then I gradually handed some work and related meetings over to him and he started to liaise with more senior people on his own. These were some of the people I have the closest relationships with so I knew they’d be nice to him. If I were you, I’d ask my line manager to give me some different/additional projects where you have to work with these people and take it from there.

    12. AP.*

      Are there status meetings which the stakeholders participate but you’re not invited to join? Ask your boss to start inviting you along. Maybe you can act as their deputy when they are unavailable and/or present on behalf of your department.

    13. RagingADHD*

      The best advice I got about building relationships with senior stakeholders for helping to seed future decisions is to solicit their input on what type of future projects might best serve their needs, so that their input is baked into the work from its initial concept. Basically a needs assessment for what could be done, instead of doing one for a project that’s already starting.

      So the approach on that would be something along the lines of “we are doing some long-range planning, and wanted to learn about your department’s needs so we can look for initiatives that would serve you better.” If you were in-person that would be accompanied by taking the person to coffee or lunch, so I’m not sure how to adapt it for remote work.

      Good department heads will be thinking long term instead of short-term, so this objectively is worth their time. Whether they will actually make the time is a crapshoot and you might have to try something else. But it’s a legit approach that can work.

    14. Rosie*

      Are there any of them you’ve clicked with at all? I’m in a similar boat where to move up it’s really my interpersonal skills that need to be worked on (particularly client relations) and I mentioned to our director of sales, who I’ve only met a couple times but had a good rapport with in those moments, that I’m interested in this position but these are my weaknesses and he has started coaching me on that front. I was surprised by how eager he was to coach actually because to me it felt like intruding on his time but it really was as simple as just bringing it up!

    15. Cheezmouser*

      Fellow introvert here. I ran into the same problem and got the same non-advice about 8 years ago. I’ve since climbed up the ranks and have great working relationships with heads of other departments. Here’s what I suggest:

      1. If you don’t have a reason to work with higher ups from other teams, create one. Pick one team to start with. Which other team does your team naturally have a lot of projects with? Which cross-team relationships does your manager currently own but might be willing to delegate? Which teams don’t currently have a liaison on your team but should? Think about what relationship or area of responsibility you want to eventually take over.

      2. If you want a more strategic role, start talking and asking about strategy with your manager. What’s a problem that everyone grumbles about but no one has the bandwidth to tackle? Bring some ideas for solutions to your manager and see if you could tackle it. The key is that it must be a cross-team problem that would require you to work with (or at least get lots of input from) the higher ups on the team you want to build relationships with. (Make sure you suggest a project that is high-level enough for the other team’s lead to be involved with, but not so high that it would be inappropriate for the project to be assigned to you.) Once you have your manager’s blessing to lead a project/initiative, that’ll naturally give you an opening to interact with that team’s lead. You can ask your manager to make the introduction for you: “Great! I’d love to set up automatic inventory alerts for when our stock gets low. Could you send an email to the head of Inventory to let him know I’ll be working with him on this project and copy me? I can take it from there.” Or you could introduce yourself: “Hi Fergus, Bob has asked me to set up automatic inventory alerts for when our stock gets low. I’d like to learn more about what kind of alert system your team has right now and get your input on the best way to move forward. Are you available to meet next week?”

      3. Once you’re doing the project, make sure to keep the higher ups informed. You’ll most likely start the project by getting input from the higher ups, but then you’ll probably be working solo or with staff on your same level to do the actual execution. Make sure you close the loop with the higher ups! If you send a monthly/quarterly status report to the project team, copy the higher ups as an FYI. Or copy them when you send celebratory emails to your teammates for achieving milestones (“Hey team! Congrats on our first successful beta test of the alert system today.”) This is important for visibility, both for the project status and for you as the project leader.

      4. Repeat steps 1-3 a few times with that same team. Once you get a few of these projects under your belt and have built a track record of being able to work with that team, talk to your manager about formally taking on the relationship with that team as part of your job responsibilities. (“I’ve really enjoyed working with Inventory on projects X, Y, and Z. I’m wondering if there’s opportunity for me to take over owning the relationship with Inventory for our team. Is this something we could discuss?”)

      Congratulations, you now have responsibilities that require you to regularly interact with the higher ups on another team. Rinse, lather, repeat for more teams as desired. Once you gain 1-2 of these new, higher-level responsibilities, I’d say it’s time to discuss a promotion.

    16. kt*

      Make up a project. Find something that you could drive value on, and start talking to people about it.

    17. learnedthehardway*

      Honestly, I’ve found the best thing to drive relationships is to listen to people and show that you’re thinking about what they’re telling you. Find a way to provide some value to what they are doing.

      Also – ask your manager if there are any issues that your department could help out the other departments with. Or, tell your manager that you’re going to reach out on the basis of doing process improvement in your own department to see how other departments feel about the service they get from your department (if relevant). Use that as a basis for reaching out – in fact, then you could say your dept manager suggested you reach out. You might hear some feedback that would form the basis for a process improvement project.

    18. David*

      This might not be relevant in your case, but if the opportunity comes up, asking someone for help on something in their area of expertise can be a pretty effective way to build or maintain a professional relationship. There have been times when I would ask a coworker to help me with something that I probably could have done myself, not only because they can do it more quickly but also because it gives me a good excuse to open communication with them. (It helps that my company is very non-hierarchical, with a cultural expectation that anyone in the company can reach out to anyone else – no need to channel communication through managers or anything like that)

    19. Jamie*

      I am actually one of those people who is really good at that. So my recommendations would be to make it to their advantage if at all possible and use their work as a stepping stone. So for example, in my job I asked a department supervisor for 30minutes of screen sharing meeting to have her give me an overview of her system. So she literally shared her screen, and told me what systems she uses and what they mean and what she does with those screens. My reason for this is that we all need to work together- all departments are interrelated, and the more I know about her systems the better I can proactively help to NOT effect her, and if anything help improve. I guess I should say I’m an accountant. I did this with pretty much all the different department managers (Leins, a/p, a/r, disbursements). This first meeting gave THEM the control of topics- and I learned what was most important to them. After that 30 minute meeting I looked at stuff
      Myself, and with some of the managers I scheduled follow ups with specific questions I had. This did tremendously well for me in the aspect you need. I will also say I am surrounded by introverts – my boss is an introvert and that’s why he hired me to do this sort of thing for him (im female in case that matters). So the burden of these relationships is usually on me since most of my
      Coworkers are introverted. I also work with worldwide people – and people above me in the chain.

      1. Jamie*

        Honestly after those first initial meetings – for me it naturally flowed. Some of those stakeholders now cc me in emails or include me in meetings for THEIR stuff since they know I know more about the big picture and tend to be able to help.
        Since I listened and respected their perspective in the beginning – even though I’m below them in the hierarchy – they even respect me saying no to their requests.

  3. W*

    Interviewing at 2 places right now. If I try to time it right and get offers around the same time, can I play the offers off each other and negotiate for more money?

    Place A is more desirable but their salary range ($50-60k) was already given in the job post. They also asked for salary expectations and I gave the upper half of that range, $55-60k. Place B offers more, $60k+.

    Place B is the sure bet. If Place B offers $60k+, can I go to Place A to ask if they can offer some more since I have another offer or will that look badly on me?

    It’s not a big difference and I’ll still choose Place A, but I just want to know if I can do more to maximize my salary.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It can be difficult to get the offers to be around the same time, but if you get an offer from A and not yet an offer from B, you can tell B that you have another offer and so ask where they are in their hiring process, which may rush them to make an offer, or they may say “We can’t really rush this.”

      That said, with the numbers you’re talking about, you don’t necessarily have to leverage another job offer in order to negotiate for more. If A offers you $55k, you can still ask for $60k or even $62k.

      1. W*

        Thanks for sharing! So you think that if A offers me 55k, I can still ask for the max, 60k, or more? Wouldn’t they just say the range we’re offering is 50 to 60k, so no more? And would asking for beyond the limit make them decide on another candidate?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, you should 100% ask for the max. Any place that offers you 55k and rescinds the offer if you ask for 60k is not a place you want to work for. That’s a major red flag. They could hold fast at 55k, but they shouldn’t rescind the offer.

        2. DCQ*

          If a company has posted their range, that probably really is their range and it could cause issues to offer above it (think: equity issues with other staff at that level). That said, if it’s only $5000 you could asks for something like a signing bonus to make up the difference.

          1. IndyDem*

            Actually, I wouldn’t ask for a signing bonus. That is a one time payout – and isn’t factored into future % raises, which lower it’s value over time.

        3. Yup*

          For sure, you should be able to ask for the 60K without any problem. It’s what they advertised, and what you said in the interview. You could justify wanting more than 55K based on the fact that another employer offering 60K+ is interested in you. Asking for more than 60K would be tricky, in my view, as it could come across negatively. What would be reasonable, would be to ask for 60K plus something else, possibly related to benefits or a salary review sooner than a full year, e.g. 60K now, with a review and adjustment in 6 months, or something like that.

    2. W*

      Also, I gave my salary expectations in the cover letter as requested, not the negotiation stage.

      Would I still be able to negotiate salary later if they already made their salary range transparent in the job post and I already gave my salary expectations in the cover letter?

      1. Combinatorialist*

        If they have done you the courtesy of being upfront about their range, it is a bit disingenuous to try and then go above it (just like it would be if they decided to try and go under it). If the job turns out to be significantly more involved (like surprise 25% travel) or higher level than the posting, that’s one thing. But I would say you need a real reason to ask for more than the range you have already told them they are fine with. And I wouldn’t say another offer is that real of a reason

        1. Elizabeth Proctor*

          If their benefits aren’t good, that would be another reason to try to go above the range you had already specified.

    3. Beehoppy*

      If they have already posted their salary range, you are unlikely to get much more than the high end, and you would have to be prepared for the (small) chance that they withdraw the offer if you go back with a request for more than you originally said you were looking for.

    4. Parenthesis Dude*

      You can always try to get more, especially in this market. You may want to say you looked at benefits and you need a bit more money to make up for your losses. If their range is 50-60k, they probably won’t have too much wiggle room, but may decide to go over if they really like you.

    5. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

      Like others since they were transparent I wouldn’t push back on the salary for no reason. If you feel it is significantly under market then you should have bowed out earlier. I do think there are a few scenarios for asking for the max or more:

      1) the job responsibilities as you learned through the process are more significant or require additional expertise than previously understood, as such you are looking at a higher base.

      2) the benefits are going to shift a significant amount of money back on you.

      I don’t think you should leverage another job offer alone, it feels a bit icky, and as a hiring manager I might be put off, however if you came with reasons why you would like to discuss a higher range because of good reasons that would be different.

    6. learnedthehardway*

      Be careful with this – it can get to looking like all you’re doing is playing off the companies, and that you’re not interested in the role. ONLY do it one time – if you tell A that B has offered X, and then A matches, don’t try again with A if/when B matches A’s offer.

      Better yet, go in to your negotiations with an idea of what you want to get, and negotiate the whole package. Just because B might offer more money, it doesn’t mean their offer is overall better. A might offer you a better bonus structure, benefits or vacation, and might be a better company overall.

      1. Joie De Vivre*

        Yes, be careful. I’ve seen this sort of situation play out 2 different ways – at the same company. One manager raised the offered salary for a candidate, another manager pulled the offer for a different candidate.

    7. Chidi has a stomach ache*

      FWIW, this is what my husband (in engineering) did: he ended up with two offers given within a week. Company A came in first, then B. A had a higher salary, so he told company B that he already had an offer for X, could they match? They did, then he went to Company A and said, “I just got a second offer for X” and while they didn’t up the salary they did give a sign-on bonus. And he’s at A, now (and honestly, was probably not going to go to B at all, even if they’d initially offered a higher salary). I am also told that is very common in his field. The big companies expect that they might compete over candidates, and he is also right in the middle of the salary range for his title, so there was wiggle room to be had.

  4. Sunshine*

    Today is my fifth day in a new job. TIL that before he was Asian Jim Halpert or Louis Huang, Randall Park made a living being a jerk in sexual harassment training videos. I would have negotiated more if I knew they were springing for famous people!

    How are all the other recent job changers doing in your new roles?

      2. JustaTech*

        Gad, I watched so many of those as a kid because my dad was a management consultant and needed to review the training videos on the weekends (and we only had one TV).

        The one with John Cleese was the only one that was not excruciating to be in the room with, and I actually learned some stuff about communication in management.

        I’ve realized recently that I haven’t had any HR training videos in forever. I would remind them of this, but the last set of harassment videos was *so bad* that I really don’t want to have to watch them again.

    2. A Beth*

      I’m finishing up week 3 at a new job & new institution. So far so good? I guess at this point I’m a mid-career person, so I feel like there’s less of a grace period to mull things over; normally I would waffle over things more but now it’s just like I have to jump right in because it’s not new work to me, just new people. So amidst the hours of trainings and policy reviews I have a clear sense of my top priorities and the timelines for most of them. I don’t know where my impostor syndrome went but I’m glad it seems to have disappeared with this change!

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Same company, new role.

      First week was phenomenal. I hit the ground running and was able to show how the organizational knowledge was going to overwhelm my growing pains.
      Second week was a mixed bag. Some growing pains. I’ve been out of my desired role/department for 18 years, and what I know how to do and how I know how to do it is betraying my age.
      Third week went well. Productive, high morale, hybrid role started looking like we envisioned it.
      This week has been a catastrophe. Systems outages, sleep deprivation, deadline roulette.

      Sum it all up, though, and I feel challenged, capable, and still happy with this brave new world.

      1. A Beth*

        At least the catastrophes weren’t your fault, right? All you can do is work with what ya got. Hope next week is on the upswing again!

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          At least the catastrophes weren’t your fault, right?

          I haven’t caused any of the catastrophes. My new co-supervisor thinks I could have handled one of them better, i.e. made better use of the downtime during it, but there’s a good case for what I did from the point of view of the client team (where I am coming from) instead of the point of view of the team he’s always been on.

          I’ve also eliminated three tickets before they were even opened, so I think I’m still head of the game.

    5. Marie Elizabeth*

      Just passed 90 days. Not at all like I thought. I didn’t get training on anything and was just put into doing my job. It’s been stressful, to say the least. I’m learning a lot but would have like to slowly be introduced to the problems and not just have them dumped into my lap in the first week. People still aren’t taking me seriously or letting me into meetings I need to be in. Wasn’t told I was going to do payroll so that was a shock. I’m not sure this is where I want to be right now but I also don’t want to look like a job hopper. It’s tough!

      1. A Beth*

        Wow, that is tough! Normally I’d say stick it out for a year but maybe if you can find something else now this can just be a blip and you can just leave it off the resume?

    6. The Tin Man*

      The news about Randall Park is amazing and I love it and I found at least one of the videos online. Marvelous.

    7. NACSACJACK*

      Upskilling is rough – first they say, take the training, then when it takes me 7 days to finish it, no more training until our work break at the end of 10 weeks. No time to train during the day during those ten days. Why do employers expect you to train off the clock when you’re not a consultant.

    8. anonymous73*

      I lost my job about a year ago today, and finally started a new one at the beginning of August (so almost 3 months in). The job I was hired to do takes me about 4 hours total to complete each week. It’s so frustrating. I’ve spoken to my manager and she’s been nudging the customer to utilize me in my role more but nothing yet so I feel like I’m once again stuck in a dead end job that won’t allow me to advance or learn anything new (it’s a govt contract). But my manager is awesome and put me on a other project that should keep me busy so there’s that. I just feel like I go from one job to another that never really offers much to grow because I’m so desperate to find ANY job to either leave a bad one or be employed.

    9. Xenia*

      Just got hired for my first full time professional job. The company just announced an 8% across the board increase to salaries for anyone under director level, completely separate from normal performance/rank/seniority salary increases, and they’re including the new hires. This may be the unexpected dream job

  5. Green Goose*

    Does anyone have a project management book or workshop/course under $200 they can recommend? Please recommend ones you’ve personally taken/read and found useful. TIA!

    1. Escaped a Work Cult*

      PMI website has a beginner’s course for free available! You can sign up for an account without paying for membership to access it. There’s also LinkedIn learning, which occasionally offers free courses about project management.

    2. DCQ*

      I mean, you can’t go wrong with Alison’s book — Managing to Change the World. I seriously keep it next to me at all times.

    3. DianeWantsToTravel*

      One of my employees has been taking various Project Management courses via Udemy; he said they are comprehensive and affordable.

    4. Hay You!*

      I have used the “Global Standard: A Guide to the Project Management Body of Knowledge, PMBOK Guide, Sixth Edition. It includes the standard for project management, 2017. Also have the Agile Practice Guide book. Both copyrighted 2017, and I don’t know how much has changed in the standards for the profession since then. I was in a multi-month leadership program and we were groomed to become certified project managers and pass the PMI test. We also got college credit out of this, so I assume this is a college textbook. It was interesting and followable. And I have these books for sale, if you are interested. But again, I don’t know how current 2017 is in this field.

    5. Girasol*

      I found the PMBOK – PMI’s guide to project management – a hard slog but worthwhile. Better is the very readable PMP Exam Prep guide by Rita Mulcahy. It’s clear and easy to read but remarkably comprehensive. Don’t be put off by the title “Exam Prep.” It’s a good everyday handbook for a project manager.

      1. I got the dirty twirls, Schmidty!*

        Seconding the PMP Exam Prep Guide! I used this for the exam prep and it was the best resource, and not bad at $99 (when I bought it early this year, at least). I also used the Agile Practice Guide as an additional resource, that’s less of a cost than the exam guide. I’m keeping both as resources as I continue to manage projects now that I have the certification.

    6. Ista*

      I’ve been working my way through some of the LinkedIn Learning (pka Lynda.com) courses as a refresher. I like them a lot more than I thought I might—the variety of instructors is nice and gives you different takes on the same things. LinkedIn Learning is often available for free through public libraries, too!

    7. 30+ years of PM*

      Depends on what types of projects you are managing. I work in software development program / project management and use the resources available from Construx: https://www.construx.com/resources/topics/
      It gives a lot of good information about different types of project management through the lens of software development.

      I also suggest learning about managing constraints – Time – Scope – Cost
      The best project managers work with the key stakeholders to balance these out to provide the top priorities (Scope) within the required time / cost (cause time / cost are often the hardest to persuade management to increase)

    8. anonymous73*

      I used PM Prepcast 2 years ago to prepare for my PMP certification. They have 3 different options depending on what you need. The basic plan is $279 (so a bit more) but if you’re looking to get certified, it was a big help. And if you’re going this route, pay the additional money for the simulator exams – they helped me a ton to pass on the first try.

    9. The cat's pajamas*

      I really like Kimberly Wiefling’s “Scrappy Project Management: The 12 Predictable and Avoidable Pitfalls that Every Project Faces”. It’s an older book, I found mine at a thrift store, might be available online.

      This is a short, quick, to the point book for starting out and basic concepts I run smaller projects, not big construction PMBOK requiring level ones.

  6. Moth*

    I’m going to be telling my work shortly that I’m pregnant and will be needing time off in a few months. Does anyone have any advice for what sorts of things to ask about specifically, so that I’m not overlooking things I’ll need or want to know about? My company provides 12 weeks of paid parental leave which can be used anytime during the first year, though I plan to use most (all) of it up front.

    Also, I tend to be a pretty private person, so I think this will come as a surprise to a lot of people, especially since I never speak of a relationship or anything (which is accurate — this is something I’ve chosen to do on my own). So I do expect a few questions around that from some people. Most will be well meaning and just curious, though a few will have definite opinions. I’m okay handling the second group, but any suggestions for responses to well-meaning people who ask questions that I really don’t want to get into at work (Oh, is your partner excited? I didn’t know you were in a relationship! Etc.) would be greatly appreciated! I view the details as belonging to my child and not everyone else’s story to know before them.

    1. dresscode*

      Ask how your sick leave works. That’s the thing that gets you. Most places make you use it before you can use other leave funds, but kids are notorious for getting sick. So just at the time you need it banked up, it’s all been used. It’s kind of a racket.

      1. WulfInTheForest*

        This 100%, new parents are often screwed because they used all their sick leave for 6 weeks off with FMLA, and then your kid gets sick two weeks after starting daycare and you have no sick leave to use.

        1. Little beans*

          100%. I had always heard that kids frequently get sick at daycare, but it is so true especially at the beginning. My kid was probably sick every other week the first few months – It gets better, I’m assuming that their immune systems develop over time. Also, the daycares are much stricter these days about keeping your kid home with any symptoms.

          Because of Covid and remote work, I was able to work a lot of days from home, less effectively than when he’s in daycare but without having to use a sick day every time.

        2. Chilly Delta Blues*

          Plus there are a lot of doctor appointments for baby those first 6 months. Between well baby checks and then sick visits when he started daycare, I used up a ton of sick leave even after my official maternity leave ended at nine weeks.

      2. Clisby*

        Do most employers these days let you take sick leave for a sick child? When I had paid sick leave, we weren’t allowed to take it for anyone other than ourselves.. I’m sure there were people who lied about it, though.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          I’m pretty sure where I live, by law, you have to allow employees to use sick leave for caring for a sick immediate family member, or yourself, or medical appointment.

      3. Moths*

        Thanks for this point. I’ll check on that. I believe our parental leave policy doesn’t require you to use up other leave funds first, but I do want to make sure there’s not going to be any surprises on the sick leave front when I do need to use it.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d suggest leaning to the flexible when imagining what you might need. Childbirth is a totally natural and yet so variable process, physically and emotionally, and the learning curve for babies as they try to negotiate the whole breathing air/regulating one’s body thing is equally up for grabs.

      You MIGHT be able to do an hour or two of check-in meetings during some of your time off, you might not. You might discover you will want to spread out your leave differently, or whatever.

      Definitely come up with some thoughts about how you are handling both routine childcare and non-routine childcare … what if baby gets sick? what if babysitter gets sick? what if someone’s covid-exposed? Make sure you’ve thought through a couple of back up plans, and include strategies for WFH or in-the-office.

      As far as the “what’s the gossip” pieces of the puzzle. I am an only parent by choice, and I found that it was handy to provide language to an ally so that she could feed people my preferred explanation — “This is a welcome child.” I was lucky that this appeared to have solved most of the prying. A chipper “I’m doing this on my own” can help too — the trick being that you control the emotional temperature of the conversation by overdoing it a bit on your side to innoculate yourself a bit from the “oh you poor dear, whatever shall you do” crowd. (And remember, no one is entitled to information about how baby ingredients were obtained and/or delivered into your body parts, so any of that conversation can be shut down with a shocked stare and a bit of awkward silence.)

      Enjoy the adventure!

      1. WulfInTheForest*

        Why would they do check in meetings when they are out on Maternity leave? When you’re out and off the clock, you shouldn’t be working.

        1. PollyQ*

          In fact, I believe that legally, they’re not allowed to ask you to work in any way beyond maybe answering the question, “Where’s the Fergus Inc. file?” or “What’s the password to the Wakeen account?”

      2. WulfInTheForest*

        Try to get your work set up for pumping beforehand, if you plan on breastfeeding. I came in after being on Maternity leave for 6 weeks, only to find out that there was nowhere for me to pump milk. There was no space designated so I ended up having to commandeer my boss’s office. HR was no help and bungled the whole thing for months.

        So try to get that plan in place with your Boss/HR/whoever handles that BEFORE you take your leave.

      3. Moths*

        I like the idea of making sure I’m setting the tone on things. If I show that I’m happy and this is something to be excited about, hopefully that will be a model for others in how they should respond. And I love your comment about no one being entitled to info about how baby ingredients were obtained and delivered into my body parts! I may need to save that line for a few people!

    3. Purple Cat*

      Think ahead of time on what details you WANT to share and which details you want to keep private and practice in your head ahead of time so you know where to cut people off.
      A bright cheery “Single Mom by Choice, Thanks” and moving on to the next work topic should serve you well.
      In terms of work, check your health insurance for what’s covered or not so you’re not surprised, and is your work covering your insurance premiums while you’re out? A chunk of my leave was unpaid, so I had to write a check back to my company to cover the premiums.
      Coverage plans – who do they bring in, and when and how does transition planning work.

      Congratulations!!

      1. Not A Manager*

        Agree. If you don’t want to share that information, you’ll need to practice more slippery replies. “Is your partner excited?” – “EVERYONE is excited!” “I didn’t know you had a partner.” – “I try not to talk about personal stuff too much at work.” “Is your partner taking leave as well?” “So many things are up in the air at the moment.”

        This is kind of exhausting, so I’d pick a few generic, non-responsive phrases and stick with them.

    4. PrairieEffingDawn*

      One thing you’ll want to consider is whether to start your leave early or wait until the baby comes. If you have a job where you’re on your feet a lot you might be grateful for a week or two to rest before labor. But I know a lot of people with desk jobs leave early with the intent of relaxing but in hindsight they wish they’d had the distraction of work to keep them busy.

      Also, I just learned of a college classmate who’s having a baby on her own and my first thought was, that is BAD ASS and so awesome! So maybe if you assume most people will have that same reaction, fielding the questions will be a little less difficult. Good luck!!

      1. Purple Cat*

        To slightly counter the “starting leave early” point. With my first, I was 2 weeks late! I know they don’t typically let women go that late now (although my son is only 14, it feels like ancient times in terms of medicine). So if I had taken a week before my due date I would have been sitting around waiting for 3 weeks. Torture. So, yes, of course if your job is physically taxing and you need a break consider it, but also think through if you really want to be sitting around just waiting for a baby for weeks on end.

        1. Observer*

          I know they don’t typically let women go that late now

          Two weeks is still pretty standard. Some doctors do get pushy, but not all.

        2. PrairieEffingDawn*

          Yeah I’m actually not advocating for early leave at all! For that exact reason. Just a consideration if the job is physically taxing.

        3. Clisby*

          My daughter was 15 days late. It had nothing to do with my doctor not “letting” me go that late – it wasn’t his decision to make, just like it isn’t a doctor’s decision to make now. 2 weeks past a due date is pretty common.

          1. allathian*

            My son was born at 41+5 weeks, a Saturday. I had an induction booked for the following Monday, although I’m glad I didn’t have to resort to that.

            We have long maternity leave, so I took a month off before my due date, and it ended up being 6 weeks. I was too tired to do much more than rest, and my brain was in a constant fog, so I was really happy that I didn’t have to work.

            That said, the opposite is also true. OP, it would be a good idea to plan how you’ll deal with things if you end up giving birth very early. Some birth parents do return to work at least part time if their babies have to spend months in NICU.

      2. Cheezmouser*

        On the other hand, you could also deliver early. Due dates are just guestimates based on when you had your last period. There’s simply no way to tell when you’ll actually deliver, unless you have a scheduled C section.

        I had requested maternity leave to start 2 weeks before my due date for both of my pregnancies. First kid arrived 9 days early so I had a week off. Second kid was 12 days early so I had 2 business days + the weekend.

        If you’re able to take 1-2 weeks off before your due date, I recommend it. You won’t be sitting around doing nothing. I used the time to do last-minute prep that I hadn’t had time to do while working full-time: pack a hospital bag, make post-partum ice pads, cook a month’s worth of freezer meals, see my family and friends, etc. I’m SO glad I did all that before the baby arrived.

      3. Moths*

        These are really good points from everyone on both the positive and negative side of taking time off of work beforehand. I had planned to work right up until I need to go to the hospital (I have a desk job), but I can see some advantage to taking some time off to prep things. Maybe if nothing else, I’ll schedule a few long weekends for the weeks leading up to my due date and try to make sure I have as much as possible prepared and ready to go in those extra days.

    5. JimmyJab*

      If you know of other coworkers who have gone through this they could be an excellent help. I know this is how my colleagues have approached it (at least I witnessed it when we were in the office pre-pandemic).

    6. Ashley*

      Flexible work schedule / wfh depending on the type of job you have. Also, your COVID risk assessment will likely be changing in the coming weeks if you are doing in person work now so be prepared to discuss that.
      For co-workers sometimes it is best to tell one or two people who you know better then others to spread the word and squash the busybodies.

    7. WulfInTheForest*

      Try to get your work set up for pumping beforehand, if you plan on breastfeeding. I came in after being on Maternity leave for 6 weeks, only to find out that there was nowhere for me to pump milk. There was no space designated so I ended up having to commandeer my boss’s office. HR was no help and bungled the whole thing for months.

      So try to get that plan in place with your Boss/HR/whoever handles that BEFORE you take your leave.

      1. Sometimes supervisor*

        Yes to this! The number of companies which still think ‘the toilets will be fine’ is shocking. It’s probably also worth a frank discussion of how much time pumping can take up and the fact that ‘putting it off for a couple of hours’ or ‘just skipping a session’ is not really an option (well, not a comfortable option anyway).

      2. Moths*

        Despite my workplace not being perfect, this is one area that I do appreciate knowing they already have in line. They’ve got a nice locked room set up for pumping. However, I think that I’ll talk with HR and just make sure that there will be no problem with me pumping in my own private office (if I lock the door). I can’t imagine there would be, but you never know…

      3. Alligater*

        Adding in to the pumping – it can be helpful to go ahead and block a pumping schedule out on your calendar right when you get back, just to hold the time so people don’t load you up with meetings at bad times. Best wishes to you and your little one!

    8. Observer*

      Even if everything goes perfectly, it’s quite possible that you could go into labor 2 weeks or so before your due date. So, try not to schedule anything that would be extremely difficult or complicated to hand over in that time frame.

      Also, if you have the flexibility, try to avoid scheduling things that would keep you on our feet or that would limit your access to food and (especially) drink in the last trimester.

    9. NACSACJACK*

      For the well-meaning folks, I’d reply, “I’m pretty private about those things” or “I like to keep my private life private (or separate) from work life” and repeat if they further inquire. Most should get it on the first or second response. On the third inquiry, ask why they need to know and reply, “I dont share such details”

    10. Red*

      Your sitch is so similar to mine! Everyone’s approach is different and obvs you’ll know your place of work better then us on the internet, but here’s how I went about it. I let management know first because you don’t want your boss learning about it through the grapevine. I let my boss and HR know via email and outlined that I was obvs still committed to working, I had no intentions of leaving the workforce, and that I would help with finding a temp as necessary. We’ve been working in person this entire time but I wanted a written record. This was after the 1st trimester when I knew the pregnancy was stable. Now I know who the gossips and the tactless people in the office are. The tactless person knew I had been gaining weight and already commentated. I waited until the gossip and the tactless person were chit chatting and I made a show of stretching, they commented that I looked pregnant and I said that’s cause I am. This was a month after I let management know (after I knew the gender). Surprisingly, it didn’t get around the office and a couple days after that convo I made a FB announcement. I have some coworkers friended and one of them jumped up and was like “No way!” and I said yep and everyone gave congrats. They also were all very curious because none of them knew I was in a relationship, but that’s because I wasn’t. It’s my personality, so I gave a flippant answer (“I’m not saying it was aliens, but…”) and I stuck to it even after some people tried to push (“Come on you can tell me!” *stares unblinkingly* “Aliens.”).

      For everything else, all of the other questions I received, most were tactful. Some were curious what I was expecting to do regarding the actual birth (Are you going to take time off before? Are you going to get an epidural? Do you have a name?) and I answered to my level of comfort (No. No. I’ll share the name when I make the birth announcement.). I also thought I was going to face a lot of judgement on my single mom status but I found that no one said anything to my face if they had judgements and the only comments I got were in the vein of ‘you’re awesome!!’. To be fair though that’s probably partly age based. I think the younger you are the more likely they are to make critical comments to your face. I’m in my early 30s so.

      I ended up working until I gave birth. There were many ‘you’re still here?!’ and ‘should we have a mop on hand?’ comments the further I went past the due date. They were in jest though, and in fact one of my coworkers ended up being the one to take me to the hospital because labor started at work.

      Also be really clear of what you think you’ll need when you come back to work after the leave. For me flex time, flex time, flex time was the most important. You will not get much sleep those first few months and then you’ll have to get up and drive to work and then come home take care of the baby and yourself and still not get sleep. The ability to occasionally sleep in and be a bit late so I was refreshed enough to actually drive safe and do my job was essential. Also see if remote work is an opportunity. My other coworker had a kid the same week I did and she negotiated part time remote work for after she came back. Just whatever you think will work best for you, ask now and get the commitment in writing. Also if you’re planning on breastfeeding you’ll need to pump at the office to keep your milk up. Have them assess the office space now and determine where that will happen. You don’t want to come back to work and find out you’re in a dirty supply closet under the stairs. (And, if you didn’t know, your health insurance is required to provide you with one fully covered breast pump as a DME item. If you have mainstream insurance it will likely cover one of the hands free ones: the willow, the elvie, the freemie, or the momcozy. Those can be SUPER convenient because they’re fairly quiet and they fit in your bra under your shirt so there’s a bit less exposure/fiddling with them and your not stuck attached to an outlet.)

      Best of luck and I hope it’s an easy pregnancy and birth for you!

      1. Moths*

        I’m so glad to hear how well everything went for you! I’ve got a meeting set up with HR next week and then a meeting with my manager right afterwards, but I like the idea of an email as well. I think I’ll draft one up and then send it after my in-person meetings with them just as a summary of key points. So far only a couple of my good friends at work know and they’ve been sworn to secrecy, because I really wanted to make sure my manager was the first to know (or at least didn’t hear it through the grapevine from anyone else). These are some helpful lines as well that I didn’t think about practicing, but I’ll want to have down to make it easy to say. Especially about sharing the name (and gender for me) with the birth announcement. I might need to try the alien line as well ;)

    11. stornry*

      all of the above!
      One more thing, ask about adding Baby to your health insurance after they’re here. There may be a time window you don’t want to miss.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        +10000.

        Our company-provided insurance allows you to add a new baby only within 30 days of the birth. Otherwise you have to wait until benefits renewal time, usually at the end of the year. Trust me, you do NOT want to pay for all the Well Baby checkups and immunizations out of pocket. Find out the deadline and set a reminder for yourself, circle it on your fridge calendar, do whatever you need to do to make sure you hit the deadline in your sleep-deprived fugue state.

    12. Binky*

      I’m a single mom by choice, and when I announced I said something like, “I’ve always wanted to be a mom, and so when I reached my mid-30s without a partner, I decided to go for it on my own.” Everyone received that pretty well. I felt that covered the major points, breezily enough.

    13. Cat Tree*

      I’m single and had a child on my own using donor sperm. I spent a lot of time thinking about how to field questions about that and I just … never got any. You might be surprised at how non-intrusive your coworkers are.

      Also, since you can break up your leave I recommend saving a few days if can so you can have a staggered return to work. I cam back MWF for a few weeks and it was so great to essentially practice our evening routine while still having the next day as a buffer just in case. There’s really no sleeping in when you have a baby, but I could at least use that time to wash bottles and pump parts if I couldn’t do it the night before.

      1. Moths*

        I love seeing how many single parents by choice there are on here! Also, I really like the idea of staggering my return. I had thought about going back partial days or taking long weekends, but I like the MWF idea even better, with your point about giving time to practice routines and rest/catch up on things in between if needed.

    14. Moths*

      OP here — thanks everyone for all of the helpful advice! A lot of these things are points I hadn’t thought of before. I’ll go through and respond directly to a lot of the posts, but in general, I’ll say that I’m very lucky with where I work. Just in my department of about 80 people, there have been probably a half dozen people in the past year who have taken time off for parental leave (we offer paid leave to both primary and secondary parents and it’s a well-used benefit throughout the company). I also know there’s a locked nursing room in the building with comfortable chairs and fridges and only people approved by HR have access. However, it’s a pretty long walk from my office, so because I’m lucky to also have a private office with a door that locks, I may choose to just pump in my office. Also, I’m confident that my manager will be supportive, if very surprised. The timing isn’t great because I was hoping to have a timeline for a promotion locked down before announcing, but that just hasn’t happened and I’ve literally run out of clothes that can hide things!

      On the negative side, I’m in a state with a very high birthrate that’s very family-focused and I’ve heard from female coworkers that they’ve received comments from others when they were pregnant regarding how their children would really be better off if they would stay home with them. Those are the comments I’m comfortable responding to with stone-cold professionalism (and reporting to HR if needed). I know the idea of single parenthood by choice will be foreign to a lot of my well-meaning coworkers though and they’ll be confused/curious. I’m comfortable sharing that I’m a single parent by choice, but the methods through which things happened are something I consider no one else’s business :)

      I’m in the process now of trying to figure out just how overwhelming this all is going to be in a few months!

    15. Caitlin*

      Long time reader, first time commenter! I wanted to chime in here having just given birth back in February. Something that came up in my FMLA meeting with my HR rep that I hadn’t even considered was the option to start back part-time and ramp up to full-time at the end of my leave. I got 12 weeks total or 480 hours (6 weeks paid parental leave, the remaining 6 weeks covered by banked annual leave, I could only have used sick leave in that second 6 weeks if my OB said I needed more time to physically heal. I work for a public university that gives 4 weeks annual leave and 4 weeks sick leave annually, with the option of rolling up to 320 hours forward) . I took 10 weeks off fully, and then used my remaining 80 hours of leave intermittently over the next few weeks so I could start back slow and ease myself back into work and my daughter into the daycare schedule. I never would have thought of asking for something like that, so I’m super glad my HR rep brought it up as an option she had seen other parents use to ease the transition. It can be hard going from 12 weeks of being fully disconnected from work and trying to keep a small human alive right back into the full grind of work, so having that transition period was a lifesaver for my brain.

      1. anon for this*

        I would have loved to facilitate that for my employee recently, but HR said that all leave related to giving birth had to be taken in one chunk :( and cited state law to justify that they didn’t have to allow intermittent leave (some states legislate that intermittent or spread-out leave must be an option). So definitely ask.

    16. Charlottemousse*

      Congratulations! On your first questions, I would make sure to look up your state parental leave benefits, if any. For example, in California, we have paid family leave and paid short term disability leave that can be used during/after pregnancy, and that’s something I used in conjunction with my family leave from work once our baby was born. All to say, it’s helpful to know that before you go talk to your supervisor; for me, it helped to give me a sense of what time off I should ask for (we have a pretty flexible, but mostly unpaid, system at work, so it was up to me to ask for what I wanted). I ended up working until the Friday before my due date, and our son was born on time. In retrospect, that might have been a bit too much of a gamble. I’d recommend thinking about how to transition of your projects/work and coming up with a plan with your supervisor as you near your due date. Good luck!

    17. Jamie*

      For the gossipy conservative stuff. I would say after your boss knows, you could email parties to let them know if your upcoming time out so they can help alert you to anything you need to get ahead of planning work wise. Then they will likely email you all the personal questions and you can just not answer some of them. I had a hysterectomy recently and I had a coworker make a remark that hinted I shouldn’t do it since I’m young and what if a future husband wants more children – I simply didn’t answer and went on with the rest of the conversation. That was in person and rather awkward for me – so after that I emailed people and said “due to my upcoming surgery – blah blah planning work” and then I chose who I answered what to personal wise.

  7. Juju*

    I’m applying to a maternity cover position for a desired role at a Big 4 company I’d love to work for.

    Because it is a Big 4 in its field, what are the chances that this maternity leave cover will lead to future opportunities? Would they consider me if I perform well, or would it be seen as an annoyance?

    If I ask if this can lead to future opportunities in the interview, would that reflect badly on me? (They just want someone to fill the role.)

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t have experience with the sort of company you’re talking about but I do have experience of doing maternity cover contracts and also of getting a job within the same organisation as a result of one.

      I don’t think you should ask in the interview – they’ll be looking for someone who would be happy just to fill the role for the duration of the contract and it might set off alarm bells in their heads if they think you’re going to be disappointed with that or just using it to try to get a foot in the door. I think it’s the sort of thing where you’d want to get there and then suss out the situation and see how things work. In my case I found out that I got on really well with everyone and they were really pleased with my work, and when a job opened up on a different team, starting a couple of months after my contract ended, my boss made sure I knew about it. Basically I think treat the maternity role as a great opportunity to get in and see how they work, make some friends, network a bit and do a great job, and then at the very least you’ll leave with a great reputation that you can reference if you do then apply for a job there in the future. Definitely scope out whether there might be opportunities to move into something full-time after your contract, but don’t go in looking like you’re immediately wanting to move on – they’ll want someone to do a great job with the maternity cover and then they might consider you for other things if there are any available.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same – I came into my current organization on a four-month cover, and when the other person came back, my boss at the time was pleased enough with my work to keep me on for another couple months. I was … I won’t stay overqualified for the role, but differently qualified (including professional credentials), and better suited to other types of roles in the org, so when I told her I was going to start looking for roles that were more aligned with my actual credentials, she put me in touch with folks in that area of the org and I was hired on permanently, and have been promoted multiple times since then. (That’s actually how I ended up getting hired into both of the orgs I’ve worked at in my actual career — starting out as a temp that wasn’t intended as temp-to-hire, and impressing enough to be hired in permanently from there.)

      2. Juju*

        Thanks for sharing your insight! That was what I was thinking too. I want to show that I’m eager to work at the company but I don’t want to appear like I’m just trying to get a foot in the door.

    2. Lulubells*

      Absolutely tell them you are hoping it will lead to other opportunities. When I’ve interviewed this usually make applicants look better. My employer always tries to find perm jobs for good temps. A temp contract will also give you a chance to test out the company and make sure its as you thought.

    3. Purple Cat*

      I think you can mention it, maybe not ask it directly, but when you talk about the company and why you’re excited to work there, mention that you hope it might lead to future opportunities. The person interviewing you wouldn’t be able to say “yes, this will lead to an opportunity” because you might not work out if they hire you and there might not be opportunities available at the time your contract ends and they wouldn’t want it to seem like they strung you along. You could ask a generic question like “in the past, have people moved into full-time positions with the firm?”

    4. Nessun*

      I’m in Big 4 accounting and I hired a temp mat leave position into a full time hire when the mat leave ended. I appreciated the work of the temp, and discussed keeping her for the larger workload we had by the time the new mom came back to work. It was an excellent fit all around, and a super easy way to grow my team, so I appreciated being able to pull a temp to permanent hire. The temp did ask about opportunities in her interview, including permanent positions or further temp positions, and I appreciated that she was up front about wanting to move to permanent so we could examine her work from that perspective when she had reviews.

    5. Red*

      I’m not sure I’d ask in the interview but if you do get the job and after you get the feel for the boss/office I’d maybe casually bring it up.

      Now I don’t work for a big 4 accounting firm but at my company where I’m in the accounting department, I went on mat leave and when I came back they liked my temps work enough that they just hired her on to do other work we needed done in our dept.

  8. Anonymous Educator*

    Anyone else working in tech start out in the humanities or arts? How did you get to your current role?

    1. BellicoseEnthusiast*

      I did, and the answer is basically nepotism. I had a friend who hired me into an entry-level helpdesk support role at a university and that then eventually turned into a web development career. Even though I had a literature background, I was already kind of a nerd (built my own computers) that was into graphic design, so it wasn’t too far of a stretch.

      But I have hired for my old helpdesk role, and we have applicants with lit/art degrees and as long as they seem driven and not incompetent, we are willing to hire them. I don’t think most people (at least here) are picky about it for entry-level roles.

    2. mlem*

      I had a humanities degree followed by retail and temp/office work before I got into my tech job, but that was back in 1997 … and they outright told me they only really considered me (for an entry-level help-desk position) because of the university my degree came from. :/

    3. devtoo*

      Yep! I made the switch a few years ago after getting burned out in non-profits and then doing a web development bootcamp. My current role I got through reaching out to former coworkers in tech after a layoff last year, but my first tech job I got through applying to a ton of jobs in my area and making a really specific case in my cover letter as to why my previous career was relevant (communication skills, problem solving, etc.). My first tech job was at an agency that specifically had a lot of arts, humanity, and non-profit type clients, so they liked I was intrinsically excited about the content even tho they were hiring me to code.

    4. Ari*

      Yep. I have a theater MFA and now work as a product manager. Basically the answer in my case was to work at small companies where you can be a jack of all trades and learn on the job, and then leverage those skills into lateral moves to other orgs.

      1. Salesforce admin*

        This was my situation too. I took a tech-adjacent role at a non-profit (supporting a fundraising team, including data entry and gift processing) and then because I was competent at the CRM, I just kept taking on a larger and larger role, and eventually turned that into a career in technology. I don’t think a single person reporting to me has a degree in technology and most followed similar paths.

        The Salesforce nonprofit world is full of “accidental admins”, if you have any interest in that technology.

        1. Ama*

          This is a great path, as someone who works in nonprofit I can attest that orgs are often looking for database management and/or technical support roles and they are often willing to take a chance on someone with a non-traditional background since they can’t compete with for profit tech salaries.

      2. The Ginger Ginger*

        This is about what happened to me too. Started in an operations/account manager type role. I basically looked for opportunities to participate in additional projects, because a subject matter expert on process, tools, client use cases, etc. Worked my way up to training new ams, then writing and managing new processes, then moved into product ownership of those tools I was a SME for. Currently Director of Product of all those same products. Got that bump when the products were acquired by a new company.

        Definitely helps to start somewhere smaller, where you can wear a few hats, and start making your name as a problem solver/go to person and use that to leg your way into new opportunities. You need to be comfortable feeling like you’re doing a lot of stretching, so if that’s not your thing, this strategy would be pretty uncomfortable for you.

    5. not a doctor*

      Took some free coding & data classes, taught myself the rest, now I’m a data analyst at a place that likes non-traditional backgrounds.

    6. Margaery Tyrell*

      I have a tech-adjacent role (designer) and my degree was somewhat relevant (communications/advertising) but things that may help you:
      * Reach out to your network — a personal rec does put you at the front of the slush pile. At the very least you can pick your tech friends’ brains on what they prize in candidates/coworkers over others.
      * Have a friend look at your resume. I’ve learned different fields/industries really differentiate how they write resumes; it’s worth having a friend in the industry you’re trying to get into maybe point you in the right direction.
      * Early-stage startups/small companies might be willing to take a chance on someone with adjacent skills (but not experience), but of course be on the lookout for startup red flags.

      Hope that helps, and best of luck in your search!

      1. EngineeringFun*

        I agree with MT, I have two female friends that have made the switch. Both learned to code as part of a project for work and then were able to transition into tech using new skill. I’m in Boston where there is a lot of tech and biotech startups. If you get into one startup after a year you can transition again. We have lots of job hopping here.

    7. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      My undergrad degree is in history. During college, I taught myself HTML and CSS, and my workstudy job was updating a bunch of university websites and did some open source work. On the strength of that, I got a junior front-end development job at an agency, and built from there.

    8. Beth*

      I got a Bachelkor of Theater degree in 1983, attended but did not complete an MFA in technical theatre, and worked in professional theatre for 15 years. Theatre degrees and experience teach you to deal with crazy personalities and unbendable deadlines.

      It paid crap, and I got tired of the crap conditions — being expected to work for the LUV of art, being treated as a replaceable dogsbody instead of a highly trained and experienced professional, being told “you can’t possibly be happy doing anything else!” and “You shouldn’t want to work for the money, just for teh ARTS!”

      I went back to school — community college — and studied business and computers. I now make a very, very good living doing tech and operations management for a small firm in the finance industry. And guess what? I AM happy.

      The background in theatre taught me strength, flexibility, problem-solving, teamwork, a killer work ethic, and how to cope with deadlines. Leaving an exploitational industry taught me to value myself. It was difficult getting my first job after the pivot, but I completely knocked it out of the park once I had my toe in the door, and it got a lot easier from there.

    9. Waiting on the bus*

      I did. I started out as a customer service agent for a company that offered online subscriptions. From there I went to customer service for a company that offered SEO software for companies.

      In both jobs I basically picked up what I could in terms of technical knowledge, how our CRM systems worked and became the go-to between customer service and the developers.

      And then I got lucky and the head of IT from my first company joined a new company in the legal tech sector and wanted me to join his team. So that’s where I’m now.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is technical writing close enough to tech for what you are considering doing? I added a programming certificate, from college that designs it as a minor for people who already have a bachelor’s degree in another major.
      That helped me ‘prove’ my technical aptitude and experience to the screeners.

    11. TechGirlSupervisor*

      Not in humanities/arts but I moved from a biology background (research) into computer science. I had just left my masters program 8 months in at the university and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do (I just knew it wasn’t research in academia). Long story short, some career counselling suggested computer science was right up my ally, so at the age of 23 I re-enrolled to do a Computer Science degree. My university let me count half the credits of my first bachelor degree towards the new one, which meant I didn’t have to do any electives. That was the clincher for university vs. a private college. I’m a senior Java developer with over 10 years experience now and I haven’t looked back.

      Interestingly enough my first degree has been really useful in the technical field. Mostly because I use my research skills to really drill into heavy technical documents and though I am loathe to admit it to any management type people I am fairly good at writing technical documents (kudos to all the technical writers who actually enjoy that work!), given all the experience of writing term papers for upper year science classes. Being a competent researcher is also useful when trying to evaluate new technologies or even just how to conduct good Google searches to get an answer to a coding problem.

      Also turns out that testing is testing. Whether doing research in a lab or trying to figure out if the software behaves the way it is supposed to. I work in the defense contract industry and we have to sell off everything through formal testing with the military so knowing what a “good” test is very useful in my field.

      1. Clisby*

        I had a very similar experience. My first undergraduate degree was in journalism – after about 11 years I went back to school for a CS dcgree, and wound up working 27 years as a computer programmer. My journalism background proved to be extremely helpful in my IT career.

        1. Clisby*

          Also, I ended up working for a company that had recruited people without CS/Math degrees. One guy had a major in music, another had a bachelor’s in philosophy, etc. However, this was back when it wasn’t unusual for companies to think they were responsible for training their new hires. Teaching people how to code is child’s play compared to teaching people how to think.

    12. Pascall*

      I have an art degree but now I’m working in HRIS! My path was basically > freelance presentation designer after college > non-profit all-rounder (volunteer management, social media, grants, database management) > HRIS Support Tech.

      I work a lot with Excel now and our HRIS system so it wasn’t too far of a leap, but I’m not sure I would’ve gotten this job without my tumultuous two years at the nonprofit.

      I plan on pursuing a pathway to HRIS Analyst in the next 1-2 years and then perhaps a Sr. HRIS Analyst in the next 5-7 years.

      I have no HR or IT credentials otherwise!

    13. SparkleBoots*

      I have a BA English and started my career as an archivist at a very small library collection. I built a really basic database for a client there, and I started looking more into database administration/development. I then moved on to work in a para-technical support role at a private university, and then moved to a similar role at a large public university, all the while developing my interests and skills in database stuff. Eventually I got hired onto the database mgmt/warehousing team at my current university. And just this summer, I was promoted to manager of this team.

      I don’t think I would be in this role if it weren’t for my background in liberal arts and customer service. While having the technical skills definitely helped, I was largely self taught with those, and I was never going to be as technically proficient as my coworkers/employees. But that’s okay, because I was able to fill a hole left by our manager when he retired. I got this role because I figured out that being an IT manager was where I wanted to go with my career, and I asked my former boss what we could do to get me there. He trained/mentored me for a couple of years and then I took over his role after he retired.

      Asking for a management role was the key thing though. I was terrified to ask, because I had this mindset that I didn’t deserve anything, and I shouldn’t be a bother to anyone. But reading AAM and another mentor inspired me to do it, and here I am today!

    14. urguncle*

      I was a French major in college and now work in product management. I spent a few years doing bilingual customer service and I’ve always had a pretty technically-oriented brain, so once I had experience, I ended up doing implementation and technical account management for awhile. I recently moved into product since I was exhausted by emotionally by the intensity of customer interactions after taking a course through General Assembly and moved within my company so that they knew what I was capable of and I had 2 years of accomplishments that they could actually see the benefits of.
      I’m so grateful that I branched out of being stuck in French teacher or freelance translator roles. I like the language and I miss speaking it every day at work, but this is work that pays a lot better and that energizes me.

    15. Software Dev*

      I got my bachelors in undergrad journalism, my masters in sociology and then started a support job that became an account management job and gradually transitioned into the product department, where I quickly figured out I was better at writing code than product management. Now a fullstack dev for the same company.

    16. JJ*

      I have a MA in asian languages. I was then hired as a jack of all trades into an open source startup, first as an intern then fulltime. They were very much supportive of me upskillen what I was interested in, there was a lot of trial and error. I burn out there. Did some tech support to pay the bills, but kept on upskilling. Then I landed a sales job with on of the big cloud providers, where I trained to switch to technical sales. Changed to another one of the big3, still continued to learn and get certified. Now I’m a cloud consultant and looking going into product management next.

    17. All Oysters*

      I went to school for communications, started as an assistant school librarian and moved into tech support for our school district, detoured to a non-profit for two years in a completely non-tech role and am back in systems support. One of my current co-workers also worked as a school librarian for many years before her current role in systems support. In both of our cases, school librarians were the de facto tech support for a long time and while I didn’t have the tech background, I had a lot of curiosity, willingness to learn and the ability to communicate what I learned to people needing help without making them feel like crap. That was enough to get me into a role in our school district where I could learn a ton from people who did have a tech background and eventually be the head of the department. When I hired my direct reports, I looked less for people who had an extensive tech background than for people who had an innate curiosity and were ok with not knowing an answer.
      Personally, I couldn’t care less about technology for own its own sake. I enjoy working out the puzzles, whether it’s physically repairing something or digging into someone’s workflow and helping them find the right tool. The skills are all learnable by anyone and sometimes a non-tech background can be a help, especially when communicating with end-users.

    18. Arts & tech lover and worker*

      I graduated with a BA in French/Art History/Political Science. I answered an ad in the newspaper (this was 30 years ago LOL) and ended up working at a UN specialized agency in France. Then earned my MBA at an American business school. Subsequently worked in the telecom industry for 2 years, then moved on to a computer hardware manufacturer where I stayed for 15 years.
      The company was not concerned with my humanities background due to the MBA.
      If you have experience in the arts or humanities that can translate to tech, they will at least be willing to interview you.

    19. tamarack and fireweed*

      My partner has a degree in music and then went to library school. This, however, was back in the 80s, when doing hard-core information retrieval meant you also had the opportunity to write device drivers and deal with how storage is arranged on a hard disk…

      A little closer to now, the scientific team I’m on employs two data visualization techs, one of whom has an anthropology degree with a minor in GIS and the other a BA in arts (and is into digital art). They’re definitely techies, both, and do stuff like digital animation, virtual reality etc.

      Basically, I think you have to find a pathway to connect from your background to where you want to go. Animation work, or work in the digital humanities (corpus linguistics for example) can be such a thing.

    20. Smitten By Juneau*

      A fair number of the staff on our major public university ‘help desk’ do not have technical degrees. In fact, I don’t have a degree (and will retire next year with 28 years of service.) At one point our most prevalent degree was Music (one staff member had a BA, with a second having a MFA and two PhDs in music.)

      The big-picture skills (research, logic, analysis, communication, etc.) that are the core of a liberal arts curriculum play well in the tech sector in general. Graduates are often very flexible and adaptable, being able to pick up new skills as necessary.

      The trick is finding organizations and hiring managers that get this. But when you do they can be very fulfilling places to work, with a diverse group of colleagues.

  9. Beehoppy*

    What type of civil engineering did you practice? Do you have any interest in returning to that field maybe in a different capacity. What type of work makes you happy?

  10. The farmer*

    I’m considering moving up to a team lead position and wonder if it’s the right move. My team is newly developed and needs a lead soon, as we’re expected to double in size next year. Our current manager has far too many things on his plate. So my question is, how do you know if the sacrifice is worth it? Leadership has not been in my career plan as I’ve long valued a good work like balance. Is taking a leadership position a major inrease in stress? What should I look out for that might be red flags? Any tips are appreciated.

    1. Anon for this*

      I think that depends what kind of work you find stressful. As a manager at some orgs you can definitely have more power over your schedule which can relieve stress. But if you find social interactions, video calls, helping people or advocating for people, or really any human-related ambiguity to be stressful, it will definitely be more stressful. especially if you have more trouble setting boundaries when it comes to specifically not giving people what they want.

    2. Toucan*

      It depends on a lot of factors, for example the team you’ll be managing. I’m a manager, and my team is very efficient, so it’s minimal stress for me. I work on big idea projects, while they handle the day to day. 4 out of 5 of them are top performers, so performance issues aren’t really a thing for me. I also trust my team, and let them manage their work the way they want. On the other hand, I know managers who are very hands-on, they have to (or want to) be involved in their team’s day to day, and it’s much more stressful. Sometimes people don’t know how to delegate, so they take on extra work instead of passing it on to their team. I learned to delegate and when I did, it was wonderful.

      It also depends on your type of personality. Some people are people pleasers, and I imagine that they naturally have a harder time managing people because they worry about other people a lot. I’m the opposite of a people pleaser, but I’m also aware, know my limits, and can read people really well and adapt my style to others. I do things my way within reason, but take suggestions from others and my manager where I see fit. I have no issue challenging people or being direct, so hard conversations don’t stress me out.

      In short, what is your personality like? Would your team be efficient or would they need hand holding? What would be expected of you as a manager (team lead)?

    3. TiffIf*

      I was in a team lead position for a few years (just transitioned to a different position two months ago) I really liked the aspects of the position of managing the project and process, getting the long view of our product goals and talking through issues and ideas with product stakeholders, what I did not like was the people management. A leadership position can increase the stress but it depends greatly on your company the work you do and what type of work cycle you have. The performance of the people you will lead also can make a difference.

      I work in software where there is a predictable cycle of work–we had quarterly updates ; so near the date of the release things could get very stressful and result in long hours, but those were at most one or two weeks every three months. Often the work/life balance was actually very good. I was able to take at least 1 two week vacation every year–I would just prep people with detailed information about the status of things and divvy out my other tasks temporarily and then I could disconnect entirely.

      One thing to look out for is make sure you know how much authority you will have. In the team lead position I was in I could delegate work and do training and review with those on my team but I did not have hire/fire authority. So a poor performer on my team was allowed to stay even though I provided feedback both from me and from other teams on their performance. (I tried a number of ways to boost their performance, additional training, additional feedback, talk through concrete steps on particular assignments, check in regularly on extended assignments, nothing seemed to stick for long and their performance would improve somewhat for a short time but the lessons never seemed to stick long term.)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, noticeable increase in stress. Not only do you have your job to worry about, but you have theirs also.

      Biggest red flag, no authority to fire/reprimand. This is a deal breaker for me. That is because once they know you can’t do anything, it’s like a dog with no teeth. Your authority ends at the name plate on your desk.

      OTOH, if you are going to do this now is the time to do it. The first person in a new position can be granted a lot of leeway for mistakes and problems, simply because it’s a new position. You will basically be in a place where you can help design the particulars of the position through your day-to-day work.

      One thing I would want to know is how many people would I be responsible for? Will there be a second leader who is my peer as more people are hired on?

      Just based on what you have here, I am leaning toward “probably not worth it for you”. But I am not there and there are many other unseen factors to consider.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      Team lead often implies player/coach (as opposed to a manager). That’s the part that trips up alot of first time TLs – balancing your individual contributor role with the “lead” part..

      1. Clisby*

        Right – when I worked in IT I never had (or even heard of) a team lead with hire/fire authority. That just wasn’t part of their job. They assigned work, evaluated team members, coached if necessary … but they reported to a manager with the hiring/firing authority.

    6. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

      I’m in a role that is essentially a Team Lead. There’s a lot I love about it – being able to contribute to higher-level projects, having a seat at the decision-making table, and making connections in our broader field are things I really value. I also love coaching the team members. What I struggle with, and what makes this a very stressful job for me, is that my boss and I have wildly different approaches to management. She’s very black and white, something is right or wrong, and has no patience at all for the process of learning. I generally take the approach of “tell me more about this” when trying to figure out a problem or addressing an issue. Now, to be fair, her role requires a level of focus mine does not, so I’m certain there are times when her approach is better for the situation, and I’m also aware that I tend to have an overall softer approach to things that isn’t always as effective. I’ve tried her style, and it just doesn’t work for me, which has caused a lot of conflict. That’s basically a long way of saying, does your leadership and management style fit in well with the current managers in similar roles and/or with your supervisor’s approach?
      As far as work life balance…again, take a look at what the expectations are in similar roles in your organization and what you know about your own supervisor. My org talks a lot about balance, but the unwritten expectation is that I need to be available all the time. It’s also more stressful to be responsible for the success of a team than just your own individual contributions. That’s not to say it isn’t worth it, but things to think about if you want to step into a leadership role.

    7. Lady Danbury*

      I grew my previous department from just me to a 5 person team. I left there about a year ago and am now looking for individual contributor roles. Management is a completely different skillset and responsibilities. Whether or not it’s “worth it” depends on a wide variety of factors, including your own management structure. Will they provide necessary support to grow develop your team? Are they understanding about the fact that the time you spend managing will require less time contributing in an individual role? Will they back you up in a conflict or if you need to discipline/terminate someone?

      Now is the time to truly assess your own management. If they aren’t good managers to you as an individual contributor, it’s unlikely that they’ll be good managers to you as a manager.

  11. New Mom*

    I’m very seriously considering becoming a consultant in the next few years in the niche industry that I work in. For people that did this, I’d love to hear your experiences. Was the pay decrease tough? Was doing taxes a nightmare? And did you actually get to spend more time with your family/doing things you enjoyed? Please tell!

    1. ConsultAdvice*

      Only addressing one portion of your question because I only consult very part time on top of a FT role, but what makes you think you’ll experience a pay decrease (other than maybe at first while you’re still finding clients)? I’m in academia and my consulting rate is 3x my FT hourly rate (I’m salary but when I math out the hourly that’s what it is) and I know for sure I could make it higher. 4x-5x your hourly wage isn’t an out of touch expectation for for-profit PT consulting, so maybe you can raise your expectations a bit! :)

      Oh and I do my taxes myself using FreeTaxUSA and it’s fine, but I only have one client and few/usually zero expenses so yours might be more complex.

      1. New Mom*

        I would ideally like to consult while working FT as well, but I’m not sure if my organization would let me and then might think I’m planning on leaving if I ask (maybe this is in my head). I’m assuming since I’m payed pretty well for my field and have very good time off/health benefits that it would be pretty hard to match all that if I were consulting. But I’m also looking for something that is more flexible but still doing the work I do.

      2. Yup*

        I’ll second your comment. When I moved from a paid role to a consulting role, my pay increased significantly. A company I had been working for as an employee paid me 5 times the amount to have me consult for them. I was doing higher level work as a consultant, but it worked for both of us.

    2. HBJ*

      Why should your pay decrease? You can set your rates such that it increases or at least stays the same.

      In my opinion, taxes are always a nightmare! They weren’t so much more difficult when owning your own business. We did them ourselves for a couple years, but the best thing we ever did was hire an accounting firm. They saved us soooo much money, including filing an amended return for the prior year, because they do this for a living and know all the little details of the tax code and write-offs you can take, which we don’t.

      Time off. It really depends. In some ways, yes, in some ways, no. If you don’t work, you don’t get paid, so there can be extra incentive to work because no one’s giving you PTO or sick time. But it’s so easy to just take a half day or a day off or go in late all the time and then work late or whatever you want. It really depends on how you prioritize things. It can be hard to say no to things, again back to that if you don’t work, you don’t get paid thing. There can always be this feeling (I think Alison’s talked about it some) of “I have to take everything I can get because what if these other customers leave.” So it’s really easy to just say yes to everything and be constantly working.

    3. Sam*

      If you do well your pay should increase dramatically over time. Working for several clients usually pays better and it’s more secure.

      Big factor is to not undersell yourself. Consultants generally get an hourly rate at least double a full time employees hourly rate. There are a ton of valid reasons for it so you should do the same.

      Reasons:
      – 1099s pay more taxes success employer otherwise would pay half payroll taxes
      – no benefits, to need to pay for yourself
      – no vacation out holiday pay
      – need to balance out time without clients work
      – there will be unbillable time line doing your accounting, falling with customer uncovering and payment issues, etc.
      – consultants are almost airways paid later and less regularly than employees.
      – some companies take advantage of consultants and don’t pay on time or even close, ask for extra work there don’t want to pay for, etc.

      Besides that, as a consultant you need to be a _great_ salesperson. This is probably the most overlooked part (and is the reason I don’t do it myself). It is generally not easy to find and obtain clients. Your niche industry might make this better though.

      Good luck!!

  12. Sapphire*

    So I’ve applied to eh 15 jobs in the last couple weeks. Had one interview right away and it went pretty bad, just didn’t click with interviewer and was awkward. But! They say it’s a job seeker’s market. Anyone have any words of encouragement?

    1. Sherm*

      I always like to say that, if your interview success rate is 0.001%, then congratulations, you’ve got a job :)

    2. Purple Cat*

      You probably didn’t marry the first person you dated – looking for a job is like that too!
      Even in a “job-seekers market” you have to match with the right company, right role, right time.
      You WILL find something! And we’ll look forward to reading your update in a future Friday good news column.

    3. All the words*

      I’ve had super awkward feeling interviews which resulted in a job offer.
      I’ve had interviews that felt like we were the best of friends and colleagues right off the bat. And never heard back.
      Now I just try not to figure out how it went. Apparently I’m a poor judge of these meetings.

      Don’t count yourself out!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I feel this hot job market has cooled somewhat since September. But don’t let one interview put you off. It’s a long game.

      1. dresscode*

        I’m not so sure about that. My current job has had an opening for a fairly coveted job (in the past) and only had 5 applicants for the first month it was open. They interviewed 2 and offered to 1 but they turned it down. I left my past job about two months ago and they only had about 7 people apply, 3 interviewed, 2 dropped out, and 1 turned it down. They still haven’t filled it. It’s also a job with a lot of people that would be potentially interested in the past.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I meant it more in that I’m not seeing as many jobs I’d be tempted to apply for as we moved into fall. Over the summer I was applying quite frequently to some great opportunities, and interviewed at two places. But lately, Meh!

    5. PollyQ*

      Job-hunting often moves much more slowly than you’d think. Some of those companies may not yet have gotten to the interview phase, so you might still hear from one of them.

    6. Sam*

      I think job seekers market depends on industry and location. I just switched jobs and doubled my already six figure salary. I’m a software engineer and the demand is huge (I need to hire 20-25 new engineers for my new job).

      However, I’ve seen a big reluctance to hire people with less experience. Company’s want experienced people only, so how do you get experience?? Personally I hate this. I would much rather hire a team with one experience lead and four entry level than a bunch of mid level or even worse, multiple seniors (in experience, not age).

    7. Yup*

      You are doing great landing an interview so quickly! We’ve all experienced not clicking with an interviewer, and often it just means that’s not the right place for you. If you’d succeeded in landing jobs in the past, there’s every reason to believe you will succeed again! Go Sapphire! I’m rooting for you!

  13. ThatGirl*

    Does anyone else get random, total mismatch job emails from recruiters?
    I somehow got on a few companies’ lists where they are very, very bad at matching me with potential jobs. My background is in journalism, copywriting/editing and content management. I live near Chicago and have no desire to relocate. And yet I’ve gotten emails about jobs in North Carolina, Florida, Arizona, New Jersey… often temp jobs with no indication they’re remote. Worse/funnier yet, they’re often areas I have no skillset in – food scientist came up once; a lot of software related jobs; today I got one for a machine operator in a manufacturing/production setting. So weird to me.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, I had a technical recruiter reach out to me for an iOS developer position, and I work in IT. I mean, some people in IT may be able to do iOS development, but I don’t, and IT doesn’t directly translate to app development.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Sometimes I can tell what they’re picking up on – just scanning for keywords and the software sees that I’ve used SAP MDM or Sharepoint and suddenly thinks I’m a sharepoint developer. Which is why a human should review these things too, lol.

      2. Art3mis*

        My husband works in IT and a lot of people seem to think that anything computer related is completely interchangeable.

    2. Cats and Bats Rule*

      I get these too, and I really think they are actually phishing scams. I usually just delete them (and any voice mails from the recruiter that sometimes come in at the same time as the email).

      1. ThatGirl*

        I mean, the companies seem legit – today’s was from an Axelon Service Corp recruiter – although it’s certainly possible some of them aren’t. I don’t reply to them or answer the phone/call the voicemails back, though, for this sort of thing.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      Yep. I have some CS background, & I trained it for a few years. But I don’t plan to go back. (I haven’t done it in over 15 years!)

      And I get location mismatches, too. My state is big enough that being within the borders doesn’t mean the job is in any way close to where I live…

    4. Tom Servo's Sister*

      Not a recruiter, but LinkedIn sent me one for a golf pro at a country club about an hour’s drive away. I’m an archivist, and I’ve never played golf. I’m even bad at Wii Golf.

    5. mlem*

      My spam folder has recently started getting pitches for me to leverage my experience as a proprietary-language software developer and leap into the world of … “automotive aftercare” franchising ….

    7. Art3mis*

      All the time. I get a lot of Customer Service jobs. I’ve done CS, but I’ve taken those roles off my resume and LinkedIn. I still get recruiters asking about them. Recently one company decided to email me AT WORK when I don’t give out my work email address to anyone. So I’m never working with them. Plus they were recruiting for a temp role at a company I used to work for and have no desire to go back to. ZipRecruiter seems to think I’d be interested in an Accountant role, even though I have zero experience in anything related to accounting.

    8. Ina Lummick*

      I’ve been called about a job: said no thankyou based on that would be a pay cut. Then they called me a month later about the same role. When I said I’d already said no, they just said they weren’t sure if they’d already contacted me or not!

    9. The Dude Abides*

      Not a mismatch with the job per se, but a recruiter had clearly not looked at my resume before contacting me.

      The recruiter who found my info on Indeed was trying to get me into an entry-level position making at best 15% less than what I’m making now. I have almost a decade of experience which is reflected in my current title. I am also with by *far* the largest and one of the best employers in my area (state gov’t).

      I suspect he was just trying to hit a quota of contact attempts.

    10. LC*

      My recent job search, I consistently was recommended nursing jobs on both linkedin and ziprecruiter.

      I’d never worked in anything remotely related to healthcare of any kind, I have a degree from an art college, I have absolutely no idea why they (frequently!) recommended jobs that required a bachelor’s degree in nursing.

    11. Audiophile*

      Yes, all the time. I get software and engineering job emails all the time from random recruiters. I’ve started marking them as spam since there doesn’t seem to be an unsubscribe button.

    12. Rara Avis*

      Yes, this is happening to my husband constantly. Out of our area and totally unrelated to his field.

    13. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

      Somehow I got on a call list as a nurse anesthesiologist. I am an entomologist. I’ve had to explain a few times that neither of us would be happy with me taking the position they are recruiting for.

      1. Usagi*

        Ehhh anesthesiologist, entomologist, close enough. They both have “-ologist” at the end so they must be pretty much the same thing, right?

        Btw I think it’s really cool you’re an entomologist, I used to want to be one growing up! There’s a long story about rivalries and betrayal that ends with me not doing that and becoming a corporate trainer instead.

    14. Pascall*

      Sure, I had someone email me and call me “Erica” for a role in Silicon Valley selling real estate.

      My name is decidedly not Erica, I don’t live in California, and I have absolutely nothing to do with real estate. It was real wild.

    15. sometimeswhy*

      Constantly. I work in a physical science (think lab coats and test tubes) and have worked in a bunch of different types of that science (different stuff in the test tubes) including forensics and I get recruiter calls asking if I’m interested in speech pathology positions at local elementary schools ALL THE TIME.

      Have a worked in a pathology lab? Yes. Does that have anything at all to do with helping seven year olds with their communication disorders? Nope, not even a little.

    16. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I’ve never once had a cold email from a recruiter or a LinkedIn recommendation that was relevant enough to consider applying for it. There usually seems to be no connection and I have no idea what keywords or other bits of data would have connected me to the job.

    17. Swift*

      Yes. I had one customer service position with “sales” in the title, so recruiters are trying to pitch me on selling insurance. If they looked at the rest of my resume, they’d probably realize I am not a good fit.

    18. JJ*

      YES! And I’m getting really annoyed at those! Worse they “waste” one of their inmail OPPS on me.
      I work for a company that is known for one product well as they are the industry leader, however has several other, fastly different products. I get loads of inmails saying that my profile fits exactly what they are looking for that one particular product. And I happilypoint out that they haven’t even read my profile, if they had they would know how much not fitting my profile is.

    19. None the Wiser*

      I am a plant (as in leafy green things) scientist and also manage a group of other plant scientists. I get a lot of requests to discuss plant (as in manufacturing facility) manager roles. Read the profile, people!

    21. ScruffyInternHerder*

      My background is in architecture; as in the building type. I work in construction in a capacity that is decidedly not that of a structural or civil engineer.

      Top five job listings I get:
      1. Civil engineer
      2. Structural steel designer
      3. Software architect
      4. Systems architect
      5. Structural steel estimator

      I’m typically not contacted by third party recruiters over what I actually do.

  14. Elle*

    I am a recently diagnosed autistic & ADHD woman. The combination of this diagnosis and video meetings has me looking back at feedback from earlier in my career (and even my teenage conversations with my parents!) that had baffled me – people think I’m distracted or not paying attention, or worse, they think I’m rolling my eyes. I’ve come to realize that I fidget and don’t sustain eye contact well. I even have a specific habit (especially if I start to get a little stressed) of darting my eyes to the side to sort of relieve the pressure that some people may have interpreted as eye-rolling. This is definitely not something I will be able to realistically change.

    I’m almost wondering if I should start Zoom meetings by saying I’m autistic & ADHD and I may look distracted but I’m not? This feels overboard when I’m meeting people for the first time via video call pretty regularly. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. LizB*

      Can you either actually take notes or pretend to take notes, and start calls by telling people that you’re doing so and holding up a notebook/pen so they can see it? This would give you an excuse to look away from the camera/eye contact at various points during the meeting. “Just so you know, I’m a pen-and-paper note-taker, so I’ll be doing that during our meeting” seems like a very reasonable thing both to do and to give people a heads up about.

      1. Anon for this*

        I have done something similar to that once or twice before — “The meeting outline is on my righthand screen so if I’m looking over there, that’s why!” It never occurred to me to do that if it weren’t actually true.

        For many of the meetings we already have a designated note-taker who would definitely find it to be odd that I’m taking my own notes so I’d have to find some other excuse for a lot of meetings. And is that going to get weird when I’m say, in a meeting with Bob and Sally one day, Bob and Sarah the next, and Bob and Brian the day after? Bob’s going to think I’m super weird, right?

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          It may depend on the team/company culture. Personally, I don’t find it weird at all to take notes even if there is a designated notetaker. Just add on something like a warm and factual, “Writing notes helps me process.”

          And that’s true for me. I stop paying attention if I don’t take notes for myself in meetings (plus it’s come in handy more than once, when official notes are lost, like in a computer malfunction).

        2. MacGillicuddy*

          Even if there’s a designated note-taker, it is not the least bit odd to take your own notes. The designated note taker typically sends their notes to all the meeting participants afterwards, similar to meeting minutes. But lots of people take their own notes. And research has shown that the act of writing stuff down helps you remember it better than just listening or reading somebody else’s notes.

      2. Yarrow*

        I’m also ADHD and autistic and I listen better when I can do something with my hands/not look at peoples’ faces. I do something similar–I say something like “just a heads up, I’m taking notes, in case you notice me looking away.” Then I doodle or whatever because I suck at hand writing. I also make a point to look up at the speaker every once in a while. It honestly baffles me why we have to pretend to be looking at one another during meetings, but I try not to let it drive me nuts.

    2. Sapphire*

      I wouldn’t do that :) it may bias people against you, even subconsciously. Instead I’d focus on techniques to help you deal with anxiety in meetings that won’t translate as eye rolling or impatience / irritation. A good therapist can probably help you develop some off screen alternatives, or even to reframe things mentally so that meetings aren’t as daunting.
      Other than that, I’d try to use your tone and language to convey interest and enthusiasm and appreciation in meetings. Saying things like, “What I’m hearing you saying is x,” where you rephrase what someone is telling you can show that you’re listening attentively. Also, if you think someone raised a good point- tell them! Again, a good therapist will be able to help you.

      1. Observer*

        A good therapist can probably help you develop some off screen alternatives, or even to reframe things mentally so that meetings aren’t as daunting.

        There is a limit to that. The eye movement thing probably can’t be replaced with techniques to combat anxiety, even if the OP could get that under control quickly enough. Because that’s something that’s a but of a physical issue, and for which the best technique IS to simply look away from the screen on a regular basis.

      2. Elle*

        Meetings actually aren’t daunting at all. I love meetings! The eye movement isn’t really related to anxiety, it’s just related to how much brainpower I’m using. It can happen when I’m nervous or when I’m thinking hard or when I’m really excited, any number of reasons. As I said earlier, it’s not something I could change even with therapy (and I do have a good therapist). And as far as bias — well, some people are already taking it as a reason to be biased against me. And I’m out and proud as autistic at work — I have been featured on the homepage and given two presentations about it. One was company-wide and one was to senior leadership in my division. So I’m not really worried about that, I just don’t want to make it a constant thing if it’s going to be awkward or derail discussions.

        1. JSPA*

          Look at the ceiling and stroke your chin, really listen, and summarize or recap or address what was said, from time to time, to emphasize that it’s your “listening look.” Steeple your hands and look into them, introspectively.

          Basically, do a little eye contact, when needed, but don’t “semi” the eye contact out of a sense of obligation, the rest of the time. Doesn’t feel shifty, in the same way that constant side-darting glances that repeatedly just miss someone’s eyes, can do.

          1. JSPA*

            …or if that’s really your most comfortable default, but you don’t want to disclose why, you can pick something that strikes you as lower stakes. Maybe declare it a sort of “twitch” or “tick” or “I’ve been having some eyestrain tics.”

    3. Not Today, Friends*

      I have a similar issue (though no diagnosis to pin it to). I call it my “processing face”. In order to process information, I sort of have to shut down my face and it looks like I’m mad or scoffing at the idea. Remote work is a blessing for this. I avoid turning on my camera unless I absolutely have to.
      When I worked in an office, I found it was most important to make sure my direct managers understood. In early get-to-know you meetings, I would say “This is what my face does while I process what I’m hearing. It’s going to look like I’m angry, but I’m not. I’m just listening and thinking through what I’m hearing.” I would work very hard to seem warm and approachable at all other times so that a slip wouldn’t weigh so heavily.
      When I have to be on video now, I find something to focus on so that again it’s not so obvious. Typically I’ll pull up Minesweeper. It helps me hold my face steady but I can still concentrate. The facial change seems to upset people more than the actual expression, so I try to aim for a resting face that’s a little closer to my processing face, then hold that with the help of minesweeper (mindless but not aimless clicking works like a fidget tool for me).

    4. Reba*

      I actually think this is less of a concern with video meetings than in-person. At least in my experience, I am very used to people looking away at [other screen, desk, book, screaming child, thing happening out the window, their knitting in their lap…]

      I would *not* lead with your diagnoses (congratulations and I hope they are helpful to you, btw!) but you might be able to say something like, “just so you all know, I’m going to need to switch my camera off at some point but I’m still here and listening!” Then you can give yourself a break or two.

      For people that you meet with regularly, you could say in a friendly sounding way, “I’ve been told that I sometimes appear distracted in meetings, but I want to let you know that this is just the way my face looks and I’m paying attention :) sometimes I fidget (or doodle or whatever) which helps me listen.”

      I wonder if you can find ways to give yourself a break from eye contact in in-person meetings, too… intentionally looking at notes, presentations, the desk, the artwork, so you get some relief before you get stressed by it. IDK, I have no diagnoses but also don’t like making loads of eye contact and notice that I don’t do it all the time, and plenty of presumed-neurotypical people don’t! I just feel like eye contact is rather overrated and it’s also a cultural phenomenon! (not that that helps you, but it is interesting.)

    5. Tomato Frog*

      I think you can give people a heads-up not to read into your facial expressions and eye movement without announcing that you’re autistic and have ADHD. That way you can avoid people projecting their own associations with autism and ADHD onto you.

      Also, in line with the comment above about Minesweeper, I play solitaire through Zoom meetings. It helps me both avoid my mind wandering completely away from the meeting, and also keeps my eyes towards the screen in a way that (I think!) doesn’t look suspect.

    6. Supernonymous*

      I’d actually recommend getting a webcam that’s not mounted into your computer and setting it up so it’s looking slightly down at you–no longer at your eyeline. If it’s not directly in front of your eyes, nobody is going to expect you to make eye contact with the camera, and they’re not going to be able to tell where exactly you’re looking.

      I work in an org where external webcams were bought for all of us and nobody, i mean nobody, makes eye contact with their camera, and you honestly just can’t tell what people are looking at.

    7. Saraquill*

      Would wearing shaded glasses help? If you don’t feel comfortable disclosing your condition, you can say the glasses help cut glare from the screen.

      I also highly recommend stim jewelry like a ring or pendant to fidget with. Stimtastic makes affordable stim jewelry and toys, is run by an autistic person, and donates part of their proceeds to austim charities.

    8. LC*

      I wouldn’t suggest start off a meeting by saying that, but I think there are definitely things you can do.

      A few things that have helped me:
      – Have water nearby, both so you can drink it and so you have something you can look at and do with your hands.
      – Drink water.
      – Try to show some active listening when others are talking, i.e. nodding your head, some kind of facial reactions (you don’t need to be looking at the screen for this, this is perfect for when you aren’t looking at the screen – you can look off to the side, up at the ceiling, just under the screen, etc.).
      – Have something to fidget with. Hair tie, pen, an actual fidget toy, whatever. As long as it’s fairly unobtrusive, no one will notice and if they do, they won’t care.
      – As someone else mentioned, you can say you have another moniter to the side that you might be referencing (and at least for me, it would be helpful to have that rather than just say it, because it would give me something to look at that isn’t a person, although sometimes it doesn’t help me because I actually distract myself, you know you so feel it out on a given day).
      – Taking physical notes doesn’t help me (my hand just absolutely cannot keep up with my brain), but I know it’s helpful for others.
      – For me, I absolutely need to keep the selfie-view on. I know some people find it distracting and it makes it harder for them to focus their eyes on the people, but for me, if I don’t see what I look like, my mind gets waaaayyyy to fixated on what I do look like. Is my facial expression okay, is my hair weird, do I suddenly have lipstick on my teeth even though I’m not wearing lipstick, etc etc. Either way, it’s good to consider this, as one will likely be more helpful than the other.
      – Look at people’s backgrounds or their clothes/jewelry. Read the book titles, look out their window, admire their necklace, etc. It’s way easier to do this on video calls than in real life without it looking like you’re staring over their shoulder or something.
      – Have a comfortable chair (sooooo key).
      – Wear comfortable clothes (thoroughly comfortable on the bottom half and the top half should bare minimum be not uncomfortable so you don’t get distracted by the collar or the fabric or whatever, video call professional atire is way more inclusive than in person, so you can totally find something appropriate to wear that is super comfy).
      – I keep hand lotion nearby (I’m a cuticle picker, so hand lotion can keep my hands occupied for a minute, make it harder to pick at my cuticles, and it’s not a really obvious thing that would distract other people).
      – Don’t try to force yourself to keep perfectly still. It won’t work and it’ll take a lot of your attention and drive you a little bonkers. You can move. I wouldn’t do jumping jacks or anything, and you don’t want to move so much you become a distraction to others, but you definitely can move.
      – Take advantage of the fact that everyone has built in name tags. Notice their name each time they talk. I’m not terrible with names and I’m not terrible with faces, but I am truly awful at putting faces to names, so this is definitely a huge feature for me.
      – Drink water (it bears repeating).

      Also, try to notice what other people do. I think you’ll be surprised at how much less everyone keeps eye contact and stays perfectly still than you might thing.

      Welcome to the club, and good luck! I believe in you!

      1. Elle*

        Most helpful comment award for sure. I definitely do the drink thing. I was starting to worry that may also be viewed as “disrespectful” because I do not understand NT rules and it makes me paranoid. I also pick my cuticles – adding lotion to my desk is a great idea. A sensory thing to do out of camera line. A+ to the selfie view on – it’s a must for me too. Maybe I’m actually coming off better over zoom than I did in person because of that. This was feedback I got years ago about in-person work, but I had just connected all the dots very recently here with my diagnosis and watching myself on video.

        1. LC*

          Yay, I’m glad it’s helpful!

          I feel like we do a lot of similar things, and in my experience, I definitely come off better on camera than I do in person, so I wouldn’t at all be surprised if you do too. I feel like some of the things that are natural for me aren’t as obvious or .. disruptive? that’s not quite the right word, but closest I have right now .. as they are in person, and that gives me a little more energy to mask some of the stuff that I do still try to keep under control (mainly, the part where I actually focus on what people are saying).

          Also, the dots that start to connect after a diagnosis are real, and nine years after my diagnosis, I’m still finding more that connect. It’s remarkable what those kind realisations can lead to.

    9. Healthcare Worker*

      I’m an occupational therapist and one strategy that often works for autistic individuals is to not look directly at someone’s eyes but to focus instead on their forehead, just slightly above the eyes. This seems to be easier to process and still gives the appearance of looking at an individual, and is not as obvious as looking to the side. Practicing in a mirror may make it easier to try. Good luck!

      1. A*

        Yes! I’ve had life long issues with keeping eye contact for more than 30 seconds or so – it makes me extremely uncomfortable. Many moons ago my therapist at the time suggested I focus on people’s eyebrows instead and it’s been a game changer. Looks like I’m making eye contact, but for some reason staring at eyebrows doesn’t make me nearly as uncomfortable as direct eye contact.

        Added bonus, it keeps me in the loop on eyebrow trends and styles!

        1. Pennyworth*

          I’m going to try that! I know I am bad at looking at people, possibly starting as acute childhood shyness. When I try to look someone in the eye it is almost physically painful. I also listen better with my eyes closed, a teacher once accused me of being asleep when I was just concentrating on what she was saying, and I often close my eyes at concerts.

    10. Parakeet*

      I’m also relatively recently diagnosed autistic & ADHD, and I’ve dealt with some similar issues. If it’s socially acceptable in your organization’s norms, to keep your camera off for large parts of the time, I highly recommend it. If not, I think the note-taking suggestion that others have brought up is a good one. If it’s socially acceptable to have an object to fidget with, in your organization’s norms, that can also be helpful for the fidgeting.

      For the eye contact issue specifically, I find it helpful sometimes to focus on, say, the bridge of someone’s nose, so that it looks like I’m more or less making eye contact, without my having to do so. On Zoom, I can pull up something on my computer to look at that isn’t a face, and position it in the right spot to make it look like I’m doing eye contact.

    11. RagingADHD*

      I would not self-disclose at the beginning of meetings because it is a derail and will set expectations that may not be necessary at all. I rarely make sustained eye contact during meetings, never have, and never had a problem.

      I take copious notes and will occasionally say, “don’t mind me, I’m taking notes.” Then I just look up occasionally and then go back to writing. Remote meetings are even better for this because nobody can see my notebook, so I can doodle freely as a fidget. Your verbal contributions to the discussion will show that you are in fact paying attention, and generally speaking, people like to feel that you are writing down what they say.

      A key point I discovered midway through the pandemic was to minimize the display so that I don’t actually have to see myself or the other person! I just take a break from my notes to look intently into the camera from time to time while I’m listening, or when I am speaking and need to make a point. Looking into the camera gives a much stronger impression of eye contact than looking at the person’s eyes on the screen, but it is much less pressure-y because it’s just a black circle. (Especially when I can’t see myself).

      It’s a little bit mechanical, but it keeps the NTs happy.

      1. Elle*

        I mean, I’m glad that hasn’t been a problem for you but it has definitely been a problem for me. At least half my managers have explicitly told me at review time that people have complained about working with me because I seem off. When I asked for direct examples so I could do better, because I am actually a very vocal contributor in most meetings, they were never able to give me anything concrete and said things like, “It’s just a sense people are getting that you aren’t paying attention in a way that’s disrespectful.” I really don’t think only glancing at the camera occasionally is going to be a tenable solution for me, especially in one-on-ones.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I apologize, I didn’t mean that it isn’t a problem. I meant “here are the particular things I do that seem to have averted this problem, so maybe they might help you as well.”

          Just some possible tools that may or may not be useful. I hope you find something that helps.

        2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

          What about something that addresses the eye movement but doesn’t specify why it happens? Maybe something like “please don’t be concerned if I look like I’m distracted or rolling my eyes, I have a condition that causes it”? I think it’s worth noting that you know it looks like something it’s not, but you don’t necessarily need to get into the details of why it happens.

          1. A Wall*

            I say this knowing some others will disagree, but based on my own experience I highly recommend never disclosing that you have any kind of ongoing condition, chronic illness, neurodivergence, etc etc unless you absolutely have to in order to get a specific accommodation. Some people will act normal about it, sure, but for a significant proportion of people this flips a switch in their head that labels you “a liar who’s bad at their job and trying to get something they don’t deserve.” It’s often an instant guarantee that folks they will scrutinize you more, be more hostile to you, be less willing to help or be generous with you, and speak of you poorly to others. That’s true whether you name the diagnosis or just acknowledge that you have any kind of condition at all.

            If you want to disclose and you find it empowering, I won’t argue with you. Or if you specifically trust whoever you’re talking to and want to take the risk, great. But folks who haven’t personally dealt with disability/ND in the workplace tend to assume that disclosing will lead to people rationally behaving cooperatively, when that’s not actually the most typical response. So they’ll advise people with new diagnoses to disclose openly without knowing how big of a dice roll that actually is, and/or newly diagnosed people will disclose expecting rational behavior and are really shocked at how much negativity they actually get in response.

        3. JSPA*

          Sometimes that’s gaze, but sometimes it’s content. There’s listening to the point that people want to make…and there’s listening to people with the goal of fitting their data into your ideas (or deciding how to argue them into agreeing that they agree with you, whether or not it’s so). For those of us who are high IQ but low EQ (at least, perceptively!) that’s a fairly common bad habit, and it leads people to feeling railroaded, under-appreciated, and like they are being treated as non-player characters in your internal mental monologue.

          This may not fit you at all!

          How to tell?

          One warning is if you can summarize the words and facts, but can’t summarize the motivations, goals, and conclusions (most particularly, other people’s good points that are NOT helpful to your own preferred interpretation / solution / goals).

    12. Observer*

      I’m almost wondering if I should start Zoom meetings by saying I’m autistic & ADHD and I may look distracted but I’m not? This feels overboard when I’m meeting people for the first time via video call pretty regularly. Does anyone have any advice?

      You have the right idea but not so great execution.

      People don’t need your diagnosis, and for most people it’s TMI. But giving people a heads up that you tend to look away from the camera in short glances to avoid headaches in a low key way gives people enough context with getting into the weeds.

      Also the note-taking idea may be worth pursuing.

      1. Elle*

        Interesting. I don’t consider it TMI. It’s just who I am, like having brown hair or enjoying meeting new people. It feels way more convoluted to make up a fake health problem and explain it than to just tell people I’m autistic. Especially given that my company has had me give presentations regarding being autistic at work to the company a number of times now.

        1. JSPA*

          Even if it’s not TMI, it’s not immediately relatable to most people, which makes it loom as “a thing that requires ongoing awareness.” And that, in turn, is distracting. Just because it’s outside their personal experience. Contrast headaches / eyestrain, which most people have experienced.

          Also, a lot of people will assume that if you’re aware of operating differently, you have enough awareness and control to (at least slowly and partially) modify your behavior to better mimic neurotypia. (Which isn’t at all a given.)

          Could they eventually get used to your way of interacting as being a “normal Elle thing”? Sure, one would hope so. But ideally, that’s not in the context of, “and she always hijacks the agenda to remind us that her behavior is different, without ever finding ways to modify that behavior.”

          Otherwise, some people will react like they would to someone who always takes double servings of the treats, and always couples that to putting on a show about it: “just look at me, I took the last donut again, and Jan didn’t even get one–I’m such a donut fiend, ha ha!”

          TL;DR: if the thing itself is irritating, having a presentation on it can render it more irritating, not less so.

    13. Sam*

      I’m going to disagree with most, just my opinion.

      I would tell the recruiter ahead of time that you’re “on the autism spectrum” and what it means as it pertains to the interview. They’ll usually ask if you need any accommodations for the interview and I would put this in that category.

      Yes, some employers may (consciously or not) hold this against you. That sucks, it’s illegal, but in the end do you want to work somewhere that is full of horrible people?

      My three children are on the spectrum and oldest is about to graduate. I do worry about him interviewing. I don’t worry about working that much, but do worry about the interview.

      I have mental issues myself that don’t usually affect interviews but are noticeable at work so I usually am open to my manager and coworkers.

      I don’t mention ADHD though. It’s so common, it’s not worth mentioning.

      1. Elle*

        A lot of autistic people find the phrasing “on the autism spectrum” to be demeaning, so I doubt I would use that. I would much rather say I’m autistic. I’m not talking with recruiters though, I love my job. I’m just talking about the regular meetings in the course of my work.

        1. I heart Paul Buchman*

          Elle my husband struggles with eye contact for similar reasons. His habit is to turn his face up to the ceiling when he is thinking. He also sometimes screws up his face and covers his eyes with one hand while saying ‘um, hang on let me think’. These are for moments of intense concentration, a time he can not sustain any eye contact at all. He has never had a comment and I’ve seen other people make a similar expression. (Particularly, in some East Asian cultures I believe so familiar to us here in the Pacific??). I wonder if this would work in a US context? Turning the whole head avoids the eye rolling accusation and makes it a more considered movement.

    14. fleapot*

      I’m also an autistic woman with ADHD. If I could advise myself before I’d disclosed my disabilities, I’d say—don’t do it. People are worse than you think, and legal protections are harder to access than you might imagine.

      It’s possible that I’ve been particularly unlucky, but it’s never made things significantly better, and it’s often led to straight-up psychological abuse.

      That said: when I haven’t disclosed it, that’s been a problem too (for reasons similar to those you describe). There’s a reason for the 85% unemployment rate among autistic people. :-/

  15. Saradactyl*

    I have a second interview today for a company that recruited me last week. I’m nervous and also feel guilty to my current employer because I’ve only been in my position for about 3 months (been with the company for 3 years, I was promoted in August) and my new boss is a wonderful manager. I feel like I’m betraying her, but I think my salary might increase somewhere in the range of $10-20K if I get an offer from this company and I don’t think I can turn that down responsibly. I’m going to see this through and do my best because I should do what’s right for me, but I can’t shake this guilty feeling

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      See if you like the job and take it if it will make sense for you.

      If your boss is wonderful, she’ll be disappointed for her self AND glad for you.

      Your current company will survive just fine.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing, I think that getting more info will help ease some of that guilt.

        And try to keep in mind that leaving any job seems to come with some level of guilt. The best you can do is be fair, leave notes, work your notice and be as supportive as possible during your notice.

        Reality is that we can be replaced at a moment’s notice. Or companies can just suddenly lay us off. This is how it goes. It’s up to your boss to have a plan to replace each employee at any time. Hey, you could win the lottery and run off to Bermuda. People suddenly leave for all kinds of reasons, and this is reality.

        Collecting up facts, crunching some numbers will really help you as you go along here.

    2. LKW*

      Something to consider, will this new company provide you a career trajectory that is better than your current organization. Was it difficult to get your promotion and move to a new position? What has the new organization said about career paths and promotion expectations.

      I’m not saying $20K is anything to dismiss, but where will you be in five years?

    3. Pumpkin Party*

      I had something like that happen to me–I was with the agency for 2 years (in a terrible department) and had just switched to a new department for 2 months (which was AWESOME). All the jobs I had applied to while with Terrible Department started calling for interviews while I was with Awesome Department. I felt so guilty when I ended up taking a position somewhere else; like you, the position was a pay increase of like $8,500 so I just felt like I couldn’t pass it up. And even though I actually cried a little when giving my notice, my supervisor, while very sad to see me go, was actually really good about it. And, the job I ended up taking was the BEST job I’ve ever had (too bad it was only a 1.5 year project!). So for me, in the end, it was worth it. I still felt guilty, and I totally get it, but of course I don’t think you should feel guilty! Your new boss will understand, and you can always keep that relationship going for any future opportunities.

      1. Saradactyl*

        I also had started to resent my old department and am very happy in my new department. I was applying for other jobs and would have jumped ship if the opportunity to move teams hadn’t materialized. This new opportunity also knocked on my door, I wouldn’t have been looking because I was happy again in the new position.

        I’m fighting a little bit of imposter syndrome too, because my “promotion” was really a lateral move into a brand-new skillset and this opportunity is for that skillset. When the recruiter told me she wanted to give my resume to the hiring manager and have me speak to him, I had to try so hard not to check that she was serious. “You know I’ve only been doing this since August, right? Like you saw that start date on my LinkedIn, and the hiring manager is also going to see that start date on my resume – I’ve only been doing this three months, and you’re okay with that, right? You’re sure?”

    4. PollyQ*

      It is not a betrayal to leave a job. Not personally to the manager, not professionally to the corporation. It is entirely normal that employees leave and then managers have to replace them. Will that add something to her plate? Sure, but it’s her job to handle that. It’s literally what she’s paid for. It seems like you’re asking yourself, “Is it fair for me to benefit from something that will harm manager/company?” but you’re not doing a harm to anyone. Make whatever choice works best for you & your career.

  16. Should I stay or should I go?*

    My workplace is weird but it pays well (law firm)… I’ve job hunted and interviewed over the years but always back down when I realize I can’t get the same pay anywhere else (it’s an hourly job and the first place where I’ve had my own office and annual year-end bonus, usually $5-6k). Now, of course, the job market is favorable to job seekers and I keep thinking about trying again, but I’m nervous.

    I’ve been here for about 5 years now. It’s not toxic, but the management is pretty absent (for example, I had to lobby to have annual performance reviews). The business itself is doing well, but at this point we’re overstaffed (all the staff I’ve talked to agree on this, but we don’t want to say it to the management for fear they’ll fire someone) and so there isn’t enough to keep me engaged on a daily basis. And with the pandemic, I’ve been frustrated by the response– we’ve been back to working in-office since June 2020 (!!) for no good reason; I can absolutely do this work remotely.

    Should I try again? I’ve been burned before where a new job didn’t work out and I was laid off, so I’m pretty anxious and cautious about leaving a solid job, even when it’s got some real flaws.

    1. ThatGirl*

      There are no guarantees; you could get laid off tomorrow! Not that you WILL be, but I see no reason not to at least see what’s out there. And you can afford to be picky, and ask lots of questions and do research, because you won’t be desperate.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Adding it sounds like you have a chance of getting laid off even if you stay.

        Ask the potential employer about layoffs- how often does that happen? Have they had layoffs recently? etc.

        Yes, Look around. And the reason is that you don’t want to grow rusty from too low a workflow.

    2. ecnaseener*

      There’s no harm in looking, is there? If you still can’t find anything at the same pay, then you don’t have to leave.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a employee in possession of a good job, must be in want of an even better job. ;-)

    4. Ha2*

      Give it a shot! Since you already have a decent job, that makes the job hunt easier, I think. You can go at your own pace. You can be picky and evaluate each option carefully without feeling like you HAVE to take an offer you get, you can say no if you’re not excited about the new position or if you have concerns.

    5. Joielle*

      I agree with everyone – you might as well look around! Honestly, I think the best time to look for a new job is when you’re still kind of conflicted about it. That means you’re job searching before you get SO sick of your current job that you’ll take anything that comes along. Maybe you’ll find something that pays well and you’re really excited about. Maybe you won’t, and you’ll just be in the same place you are now. But it doesn’t hurt to look!

      1. Rosie*

        Agreed! I’ve always had a better experience with actively job searching when it was more of a casual I could leave versus an ugh I have to get out of here before I explode situation.

  17. CatCat*

    I am not terribly LinkedIn savvy. Is it possible to let your LinkedIn network know you’re actively looking for new opportunities, but exclude anyone from your current employer from seeing that?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Nope.

      If it’s open to your network, it’s open to the company.

      However, if you just accidentally, you know, for personal and professional development, decide to update your profile to highlight your really awesome skills and experience, and if your headline stops having “Job Title at Current Company” in it and instead says “Job Title with Some Really Great Words About Your Experience/Focus”, and you start having more conversations with people in your field about things you guys do in your work and accidentally continue to prove your value to others …
      well, that’s not advertising that you’re on the market … it’s just … demonstrating that you’re amazing and ready to be poached.

      2. Maggie*

        Actually you can turn on the “open to recruiters” function and it will exclude your current company (as best it can, it does state it doesn’t guarantee it). But they do specifically offer the option that OP asked about.

    2. DCQ*

      I think LinkedIn tries to do this for you — if you put “open to opportunities” it blocks that from anyone at your current employer, but it’s not perfect.

    3. Purple Cat*

      With all things social media, although that might work, it wouldn’t exclude people who now work at a different company, but know people at your current company and start talking (probably innocently, but possibly not).

    4. Saradactyl*

      I actually ran into this today. You can set your settings to only show that you’re open to opportunities to specific users who are recruiters who have permissions to see this. You can also set it to open, which would literally be open, anyone can see it.

  18. Coenobita*

    As a 35-year-old person, I am extremely amused by an article in yesterday’s (?) New York Times called “The 37-Year-Olds Are Afraid of the 23-Year-Olds Who Work for Them,” and I thought you all might enjoy it too. I’ll include a link in a follow-up comment.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I saw the title for that floating around but I can’t get past the NYT paywall (don’t like them in general, so I won’t pay for a sub). It was intriguing.

      1. Applesauced*

        Check your local library! I found that with my card I can get access to NYTimes online, it’s under virtual resources on the library site

      2. NYT Library Edition*

        I second checking a library for an access code. For example, https://www.library.pima.gov/, scroll about mid-way to “E-Library: Research & Learn”, toggle through the cards until you see “NYT Digital Edition”, complete the directions for signing up and using a code.

      3. Mstr*

        With just an email address you can “create a free account” that let’s you read a certain number of articles. I forget the details as I don’t use it much.

        1. Mstr*

          Also — this option to login/create a free account comes up as a pop-up at the bottom half of the screen when I click the article link above in case anybody’s having trouble finding this.

      4. Victoria Nonprofit*

        Not being snarky here, genuinely curious: You don’t like paywalls (who does??) — what is the alternative (that still pays the folks who create the work in question)?

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          Paywalls – or rather, the expectation that you subscribe to the papers you read, are just very badly adapted to the way we consume newspaper and magazine content right now, where any given day I might want to follow links to 15 different papers I otherwise have no interest in. And of course for free-to-read content, the ad market is deeply rotten.

          In the olden days, I would pay for a newspaper most days (I usually bought them individually at the newsstand), or I might read it for free at the library, the café, or a friend’s place who had a subscription. If there was a big controversy about a particular article, I would hear about it on TV (paid for by license fee or by a bundled subscription with cable for example). I could then go to the library to check out the particular issue, or if it was sufficiently earth shattering, the article would be re-printed in a dedicated supplement. The time scale was just a lot slower than the immediate-gratification style news consumption now.

          The odd thing is of course that journalism has since declined, so even though I feel like I’m bombarded from a firehose, there is in fact less of it… I would be absolutely happy to spend about as much as I used to, but I don’t get proportionally as good access for the same price. What I do is to subscribe to 3 or 4 publications that I regularly read, poke around in the library options, and otherwise rely on allocations of free-to-read articles.

          There are of course alternatives! But the incentives haven’t aligned for them to be seriously implemented.
          a) A system of feasible micropayments. If every article, or 5-min access to a publication I otherwise wouldn’t consult were to cost, say $0.50 and it would be secure and easy to make my payment and keep track of my spending, then sure! I’d love that! There are obvious privacy concerns, but I don’t believe that if the powers-that-be had found it economically interesting to implement such a thing, it wouldn’t be feasible.
          b) Bundle subscriptions with internet access. Competition among ISPs is horrible anyway in the US – which is why prices are comparatively high. It would take a careful regulatory approach to make something like this happen, that is, political will, but I could totally see it.

          As it stands, a lot of the most innovative public-service journalism is free to access and run by non-profits that have some very very rich backers. Sad to think it is, but I guess in a society that decides it’s ok to produce a tiny number of fabulously rich people, it’s a better use of such moneys than others. We’re sliding back to the arts (in the extended sense) being bankrolled by the super-rich. Sigh.

    3. Birch*

      I can’t read the article, but I kinda get this? But I also kinda think it’s a good thing… jury is still partially out. The younger people I work with sometimes shock me with how willing they are to be open and honest about what they need and want and think. I know that can go overboard into real problems with professionalism, but it’s honestly refreshing to see them being invited into a team space and treated like an equal member (which in itself says a lot about the quality of my team and the progress we’ve made), and then acting like they feel like an equal member and deserve to take up that space. As opposed to my 30-something work attitude which probably has far too many bending-over-backward and a**-kissing habits baked in.

      1. Coenobita*

        Oh, I agree! I just think the framing of “you thought you were a young person making change, but now even younger people are changing you! how terrifying!” was funny. I do think that a lot of us who started our careers during the recession have a big “I am lucky to even have this job, I need to keep my head down” thing going on.

        Also, part of the article is about how younger workers are pushing their employers to be more active on big social issues. I liked this quote: “You talk to older people and they’re like, ‘Dude we sell tomato sauce, we don’t sell politics,’” said Mr. Kennedy, co-founder of Plant People, a certified B corporation. “Then you have younger people being like, ‘These are political tomatoes. This is political tomato sauce.’”

        1. Reba*

          omg the quotes were hysterical. I’m sorry these young people don’t think you are that cool!!

          I also noted that they talked to people doing these like “”wellness”” selling supplements on instagram quasi-vanity small businesses. No Fortune 500’s here. No factory line workers either.

      2. Younger than 37, thank you very much*

        I think it is kind of a good thing. I think there’s a temptation to not question the way certain things are done just because ‘that’s the way things have always been done’ – I mean, unless there’s a really good reason for working 9-5, why shouldn’t you be able to work the hours which most suit you, provided you’re getting your work done? And, provided you’re getting your work done, why shouldn’t you be able to take a sick day for mental health? If it makes sense, why shouldn’t you be able to delegate jobs to your manager or even your grandboss?

        That being said, I’ve worked with two people who were summed up in this article to the letter and, in both cases, I found them abrasive, lacking empathy and selfish. Think things like:

        “Sorry, you need to stick to the rota rather than work on pet project because otherwise Fergus will need to work a double shift and that’s really not a fair ask”, “I think you’ll find pet project is a much better opportunity for me”, :: doesn’t turn up for scheduled work, have to scramble to get everything done::

        “I need those forms in by noon because of business critical reason”, “I’ve told the client to send the info by 4pm.”, “Then, you need to call them and tell them you need it sooner – you can blame me for the reason if you like”, “I don’t want to have that conversation though” :: Noon passes, forms go in late ::

        But, at its worst, I felt like I was under attack and being punished because I’d dared to tell them no! Like, nit picking my work in public for the week after giving them some feedback one-on-one, publicly insisting we change rotas because their idea is so much but it appears ‘SOMEBODY ELSE’ disagrees because I’ve already explained to them why we’re not changing rotas in private, and emailing our manager with concerns that my decisions are insensitive and personally motivated even though there were very good business reasons for making them.

        I will caveat this by adding that I hold an odd job position where I oversee and troubleshoot a lot of stuff but I don’t have ownership so I think there was an element of trying to ‘hold me to account’ for things I had no responsibility for, or even control over. I also think this was more indicative of the attitude/word choice/tone of these two people more generally than the trend the article is pointing towards. Telling me you’ve noticed a lot of our teapots have gone out unpolished recently and asking me if I could have a word with the teapot polishing team, fine. But the lecture I received about how so many teapots were going out unpolished recently, how it was making the company look unprofessional and perhaps I should consider trying harder to make sure this didn’t happen in the future made me REALLY enjoy the awkward pause when I responded with, “Sure, and if I actually had any responsibility for teapot polishing, I would get right on that”.

    4. Not A Manager*

      I thought the entry-level employee sending tasks to the CEO was hilarious. I also thought the article leaned waaaaaay to far into the “befuddled elders taking their cues from the young pups.” I’m pretty sure most managers would have shut some of that stuff down fairly quickly.

    5. Beth*

      As a 61-year-old who has never, ever been cool, and has done just fine without ever being cool, I’m finding the whole thing hilarious.

    6. SlimeKnight*

      I read it and the article is less-panicky and more balanced than the headline suggested. I remember about 10 years ago the barrage of articles for managers along the lines of, “Those darn millenials are so entitled but yes you have to coddle them.”

      The actual gist of the article is, a) Millennials expectations around workplace norms were shaped by the Great Recession and accompanying job market, b) Gen Zers entering the workforce are having their views shaped by the pandemic and “open” communication facilitated by platforms like Slack. So Gen Zers are much less likely to want to say, work 100 hours a week, even for a lot of money, like the LW complained about recently. They are also more likely to speak out to their employers about topics, both workplace and non-workplace related (i.e. social justice issues). And those are all good things! “Hustle” culture has led to little except burnout for us Millennials.

      The only example that had me scratching my head was the start up where new hires were delegating work to the founder.

    7. Rosie*

      hmm I dislike how the article is basically just retreading gen-x vs millennial work ethic with millennial vs gen z work ethic when it’s really just there’s people who will work all hours and people who will set rigid work-life boundaries and the current labor conversation is more about a cultural shift than generational differences. There’s plenty of millennials and gen x’ers taking mental health days for example, that’s hardly a gen z identifier.

      1. A*

        Typically I’m not a fan of generational divides being pointed to as the primary driver of everything under the sun… but in this case I think it makes sense. Every generation has it’s challenges and defining adversities – but Millennials and Gen-Z are somewhat unique in that they are back to back generations (and the first two to have largely digital upbringings / entries into the workforce which inherently sets them apart from analogue generations) with catastrophic failure level economic issues that came about close to the beginning of when these generations were entering the workforce.

      2. Younger than 37, thank you very much*

        True although I would argue the thing which has changed with mental health days is managers are now more accepting in people taking them. My mental health is generally fine but it becomes very much ‘not fine’ (to avoid a long and drawn out description) when I’m under too much stress for too long. My solution to this is to take some time out when I can feel myself ‘tipping’. This happened on my first job about a decade ago so I took a couple of days out and said that was the reason. When I got back, my manager stormed over with a million and one questions – basically, the messaging I got was the company was supportive of you ‘fixing’ your mental health, it was not ok with ‘managing’ your mental health. From then on, I have lied that the reason I’m out is a cold or ‘I must have just ate something funny’. And, on that first job, I ended up signed off work for several weeks with severe stress so clearly their attitude towards ‘fixing’ mental health worked…

        Now I’m the one overseeing why people are off I still find people are quite sheepish in admitting that’s the reason. But my attitude, and that of my now peers, has been ‘Well, rest up and take care of yourself. Let me know if you’ll be in tomorrow’. If that’s now playing out with a younger generation as being confident in saying that this is the reason why they’re off, then that’s a good thing!

        1. Chaordic One*

          Your observations are so true. When I need a mental health day, my 2 default excuses are that I have food poisoning or I’ve come down with a migraine.

  19. LizB*

    Outlook help needed! I get many emails that I need to rename, forward, and then file into a folder in my inbox. For the vast majority of messages this goes fine, but occasionally I will go through the process and then when I later look through the folder, a few of the messages have reverted to their previous name and are not showing the blue forward arrow. When I look in my sent box and ask the recipient I can confirm that these messages definitely did forward successfully. There is nothing that sets these messages apart from the others that have no problems, they all come from the same address (our faxing service) and have the same kind of attachment (a single PDF file). Any insights?

    1. Kathenus*

      No solution for you but share a similar frustration. I’ll save an email to my files, and sometimes rename it in the files with more detail so it’s easier to find when relevant in the future. In my files it shows with new name, but if I try to attach it to an email it reverts to old name. Frustrating!

    2. Tea and Cake*

      Are you regularly forwarding to the same person/people? If so you may be able to set up a distribution list with them and yourself on it so when you forward it you have a copy locally as well.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Are you on a desktop client? if so, it’s probably your ost being slightly corrupt. When you use a client, it keeps a cache on your computer so it can keep running if you drop offline, and it doesn’t have to constantly download existing mail. That file is supposed to match whatever actually happened to the email / on the server, but sometimes things get corrupt, especially if you have a particularly large or old ost file. You can remove and recreate the file, but it can be a bit tricky and/or take a really long time if you have a lot of mail. If you’ve got IT help, I’d suggest having them do it?
      But if not, I can walk you through it.

      1. LizB*

        I will ask our IT folks about this possibility! This is the first real lead I’ve gotten on why this might be happening (other than “Are you sure you remember to save/send it?” YES, I am very sure.) so this is exciting, thank you!

  20. ecnaseener*

    Super low-stakes question that fascinates me!

    What is up with people ending business phone calls with “buh-bye”? I never hear it in a professional context off the phone, and in any other context it’s read as casual and cutesy.

    Don’t get me wrong, I do this too, but only because I’m so awkward on the phone I say a ton of weird things. I feel embarrassed by it, but then I hear it from experienced professionals as if it’s a professional norm.

    Is this new? (I’m only 24, so I wouldn’t know.) Is it regional? (I’m in Massachusetts.) Is it just somehow the thing everyone lands on when “Goodbye” is too stiff and “Bye” is too curt and you don’t have the presence of mind to say something like “Take care” ??

    1. Va*

      I’m a 23 year old woman from VA and the only people I’ve heard use that phrase is my family from Massachusetts.

        1. Sam Yao*

          I am also in Massachusetts and I have what I consider to be a bad habit of ending calls with a “buh-bye.” It’s not something I’ve tried to train myself out of doing, but every so often I catch myself saying it on a work call to, say, some government agency or other and internally cringe.

    2. Littorally*

      I was trained never to end with “bye” or “bye-bye” in any professional call — but then, I started in a call center, so phone etiquette was front and center and heavily QA’d. But I’ve found that in my more professional roles, where the focus is on more substantial issues and a warmer tone with clients is expected, “goodbye” comes across as cold.

      When you’re talking about business phone calls, are you talking internal? B2B? Calls with clients? Standards are different for each of these (I would say B2B is probably the most formal, internal calls the least, and client calls match the tone the client sets.)

      1. ecnaseener*

        Somewhere in between client and internal, because I work in an internal compliance role at a non-profit institution. Technically the people I’m talking to are colleagues, but they have to go through my office to make their projects happen and they don’t like it, so communications are along the lines of “customer” service.

    3. CBB*

      “Buh bye” has been the standard (or very common) phone sign-off for as long as I can remember. I’m old enough that when I learned how to use a phone, it had a rotary dial.

      I heard somewhere the word “Hello” was not common in English until it became the standard phone greeting.

      1. Siege*

        I end all calls, pretty much, with “bye-bye” (I mentally hear “buh-bye” in David Spade’s extremely annoying voice from that airline SNL skit in the 90s) but I also used a rotary phone growing up – we probably held onto it long past its typical end of life, given that my parents were early-adopters with computers and just got rid of their enormous console television when it broke for good about five years ago – so it might be a generational thing. “Bye” sounds really cold to me, and “good-bye” is worse. Like, you soften “bye” in person by waving or otherwise physically acknowledging the person, and you can’t do that on the phone. I might shift it to “thanks for your time” if it was a certain kind of professional setting, but I call the same 10 people for work, and I know them all really well, so that’s more if I’m talking to a lawyer or a doctor.

        1. pancakes*

          David Spade and Cheri Oteri, I think? I think they were airline employees saying it to people exiting the plane. I’d forgotten those skits but now that you mentioned them I can absolutely hear it in his voice! I don’t know anyone else who says buh-bye.

          I don’t agree that just saying bye seems cold, but I’m in and from the northeast, and we don’t tend to try to be super-friendly all the time. I often end with “talk to you soon, good bye,” but I mostly use the phone for chatting with friends, not work.

    4. Koala dreams*

      I’ve long been wondering what the phone good bye phrase is supposed to be in English. In US movies they never seem to use anything, not even thanks, and I watch too few movies from other English speaking countries to notice. Take care sounds nice. I hope more people comment with their experience!

      1. Coenobita*

        Approximately 100% of my phone calls with my mom ends with her saying “take good care.” I always thought it was nice! I’ve noticed that “take care” in general has increased in popularity during the pandemic. Though I think I tend to end work calls with some combination of “ok, thanks, bye.”

        1. Mr. Shark*

          Yes, take care has gotten a lot more popular in the pandemic. It’s pretty common now.
          Normally, I’d say it’s what you mentioned…okay, thanks, bye. Or, okay, talk to you later.
          I’ve never heard buh-bye, but I’m from mid-west to California, so I don’t think I’ve even heard that from anyone even in a non-business setting. Usually it’s just “bye”.

        2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          Yeah, thinking back to my work life, I usually ended calls with “Okay, bye” or “Okay, thanks, bye” depending on if I’d received the call or initiated it.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Yeah that’s a weird movie thing – I would never hang up without saying goodbye unless I was angry.

        1. CBB*

          There a certain things that happen often in movies but rarely in real life. Hanging up without saying goodbye is chief among them.

          Also: car seats without headrests, and people wearing shoes in bed.

          1. Strict Extension*

            I think this is situational. I spent ten years in specialty retail and am now patron-facing in arts non-profit. Approximately 90% of retail customer calls and maybe 50% of patron calls end with me passive-aggressively saying “goodbye” to a dead line because the person on the other end has hung up without ending the conversation.

      3. Person from the Resume*

        I think I probably end with “talk to you later,” “see you later,” etc. Also thinking harder though, I bet I follow up that sentence with “bye.”

        “Buh bye” (emphasis on BUH) is not professional and I think it could could be used jokey with friends. It’s making fun of something/someone, right? For me “buh bye” is not equal to “bye bye” which is fine and normal though a tad bit more cutesy than a single “bye.”

        1. ecnaseener*

          Yeah, the “professional call” version doesn’t emphasize the BUH. It’s more “b’bye.”

          Actually enunciating “bye bye” would make me feel like a five-year-old, but that probably has a regional element to it.

      4. I heart Paul Buchman*

        I universally say ‘see you later’. I’ve never heard Buh Bye and Bye-Bye is for toddlers here. Australian.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Interesting, I almost never say see you later on work calls, other than maybe casual ones with my own team. You say it even with people you might not see / talk to later?

    6. Purple Cat*

      On our team calls we drive our boss crazy ending them with “Bye-eeeee”.
      And yes, we’re all far too grown to be doing that. Gotta laugh at work so you don’t cry :)

    7. RagingADHD*

      Everyone is awkward on the phone. Honestly, really they are. The ones who appear to not be awkward on the phone have just memorized certain formats and scripts so thoroughly that they are second nature.

      That’s why they pick up habits like, “buh-bye.” It keeps you from accidentally blurting out “love you!” because your brain momentarily decided you were talking to your mother.

      All of formalized etiquette is just scripts to help people know the appropriate thing to say in different situations, because life and people are inherently, permanently, irretrievably awkward.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Omg, yes. I have to focus SO hard on not closing phone calls with “Talk to you soon. I love you, bye!”

        1. Cold Fish*

          I had a co-worker say that once to a customer. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a face turn that red before. :)

      2. PostalMixup*

        Oh man, every work call I have to remind myself that I’m not talking to my spouse or I’m terrified that I’ll say “love you” to my boss!

    8. Girasol*

      Mom always said that. I used to think it was because of teaching us kids to talk and saying “bye bye” to babies so often that she’d started to say it to adults without thinking.

    9. Joielle*

      Ha! I was literally just thinking about this yesterday. I would NEVER say “bye-bye” in person, or to a friend, or on a video call, or even to my own coworkers. But I talked to my dog’s vet on the phone yesterday and we both said “bye-bye” at the end of the call and it dawned on me that it’s super weird that’s how I end professional phone calls with people I don’t know well?? And most other people do it too?? Why???

      I have no answers, just share your confusion (even though I do it too)!

    10. A*

      Interesting! I’m in MA as well and I don’t recall coming across this in the workplace (I’m sure it’s happened, but I guess not often enough to register). ‘Take care’ and ‘speak with you soon’ seem to be most common.

      That being said, I’m in a global position so it might be influenced by the tendency to steer clear of slang and more casual speak that is more likely to be lost in translation (or misinterpreted as disrespectful) across multiple languages and cultures.

  21. HopeMyBossDoesNotSeeThis*

    My current job is focused on creating materials for participants in a continuing education program. Think new veterinarian providers (vet techs, doctors of veterinarian medicine, etc) who need topic-specific information*. If a vet tech said they needed to know the frequency of cancer and recommended in a specific breed of dog I would research the topic, develop all of the documents and share them with the program participant so they can provide quality care and receive certification in their profession. I am casually looking for other jobs. How do I share writing samples of the work I’ve created since it is technically the IP of the organization I work for?

    *this is not actually the work I do, just a similar example.

    1. HopeMyBossDoesNotSeeThis*

      Oops. Typo. The third sentence should say ” If a vet tech said they needed to know the frequency of cancer and recommended course of treatment in a specific….”

    2. BlueBelle*

      Don’t provide the entire document. Take a screenshot, or copy and paste a section. I do mine like this;
      Context: Manager Toolkit provided to all people leaders to guide them through performance management, coaching, and systems
      Software: Adobe Publishing
      [ screen shot]

      Make sure to always provide everything in PDF format, and watermark if you can so nothing can be “stolen”.
      Hope this helps! I look forward to hearing how other people do it.

    3. Reba*

      A lot of times designers, for example, will share work samples with the product or company name obscured. Often they will use a password protected area of a website, but I assume you don’t have a portfolio site :)

      You could share things through a password protected online drive, no downloads (with a password that expires or you change after a bit).

    5. Annony*

      How involved are these documents? Can you create a writing sample specifically to use for job searching? For example, if you are creating that document about prostate cancer in greyhounds, would it be a lot of extra time to also write up the risk of prostate cancer in golden retrievers?

    6. PollyQ*

      IANAL, but I’m pretty sure that unless it’s confidential or a trade secret, you can share part of the document (ssay, a few paragraphs) under fair use without violating copyright. If that’s too short to get across the full nature of what you do, I second Annony’s suggestion of creating a sample document (on your own time!) to show off your skills.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Are the positions you are interviewing for potentially more interested in the content or the development/ delivery? If the content isn’t as relevant as the presentation to what you are applying for, you could lorem ipsum the text and keep the design/presentation. If the development and writing style of the content is the most important part, I would write a sample that isn’t something created for your current employer — come up with the frequency of skittles pox in Purple People Eaters and treat it the same as a real-life case study.

  22. donut avenger*

    Someone in my office just left 1/8 of a donut in the box that our landlord sent down to us for Halloween. There are 3 boxes of donuts, it’s not like they didn’t want to take the last one. How do I continue to work here knowing someone in my office is this person?

    4. lost academic*

      Zeno’s paradox applies best of all to office donuts. I’m always really excited when someone’s willing to take it past that 2nd step. HOW FAR WILL ALL OF YOU GO!?

    6. Rainy*

      There’s one in every office. Whenever I see it, I want to find whoever it is and say “Just take the whole fucking donut, you coward, no one wants the dried-up bite you put your filthy paws all over just so you can feel like you didn’t eat a whole donut.”

    7. Not A Manager*

      They understand that you need to leave 1/8 of a donut overnight in the box in order for the donut elves to refill the entire thing.

    10. Can't Sit Still*

      It’s the same person who carefully pours out half a packet of hot chocolate mix, folds the packet, and starts over again with a new packet the next day, resulting in a half dozen partial packets of hot chocolate.

      I particularly like when the box of donuts is full of halves, quarters, and eighths. Bonus points for when people hack off pieces in a group, but never from the same donut.

    11. Purple Penguin*

      Just go with it, assume the other 7/8 were mistaken for Munchkins, and mentally thank your in-house donut-hole manufacturer.

    12. MMM*

      We had donuts on Monday and someone took one, cut a piece that was maaaaybe 1/8, then threw the rest away. Blatant disrespect for free baked goods

    13. Mr. Shark*

      Get another donut, slice it like a bagel, and leave the bottom, unfrosted part for the next person.
      Some people just like to watch the world burn!

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        Office donuts – many places I worked would always put a plastic knife in the donut box. You’d be amazed at the number of people who won’t take a whole donut.
        Maybe it’s based on the theory that calories leak out of the cut parts!

        1. Kat in VA*

          In the Before Times, I was a feral trash panda with regard to food.

          I would eat my whole donut and whatever 1/2 and 1/8 doughnuts were left as well.

          Now? Pandemic expansion of my midsection, pandemic caution around already-handled food (and, uh, working from home FT) precludes those trash panda habits but I fear my return to the old ways is inevitable when (and if) things open up again full-time.

  23. Confused dot com*

    I work for a uk company and have an American manager. My manager is quite insistent that I cc her on all the emails I send. I’m not used to this and find it a bit micromanage-y and annoying. She has said it’s quite standard in the US.

    I’m about to start a new job working with another American manager. Do I do the same? Is it really an American thing to be cc’d on al email? How do you have time to do actual work?

    1. LizB*

      That’s not at all standard in the US. Your manager is both a terrible micromanager and lying or very misinformed about US norms.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      It’s common if your manager needs to be aware of the communication for some reason, but I am on the US & even my worst micromanager never insisted on it for *all* emails. I’d ask my new manager what they prefer. Some want to be cc’d on more than others.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I’ve had terrible coworkers who cc’d management on everything. It’s generally a passive-aggressive move that implies you aren’t doing your job & need to be watched. (But they usually make themselves look like fools.)

    4. ThatGirl*

      It is not a standard US thing. I have had managers who wanted to be CCed on *specific* topics or when emailing *specific* people, but I’ve never had a manager (much less more than one!) who wanted to be CCed on EVERYTHING. Especially if the email sending isn’t a major part of your job (like if you were in customer service and in training I could maybe see a BCC on everything for awhile).

    5. Marillenbaum*

      I think this really depends on the field. When I worked in higher ed administration, this was not a thing–my boss did not want to have me filling up his inbox with that. Now I work in government, and it is much more cc heavy–my backups get cc’d on everything related to the portfolios where they back me up, in case I am out and they need to step in (and vice versa). My boss expects a cc on my communications with external agencies or higher-level internal staff. This is not because she jumps in on the email; rather, she has them for reference and can track to make sure I’m doing things correctly AND to make sure other offices don’t try to walk all over us.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yes! In government work, you often cc people for accountability/sharing info reasons. But even then, it’s specific to the topic & who you’re emailing.

    6. CatCat*

      Not at all standard in my part of the US (western coastal) and would be seen as weird and micromanagey.

    8. Kathenus*

      In my experience it is not an American thing, it’s a (potentially universal) bad micromanager thing. I would start with your new manager with what you think the appropriate level of cc’ing is unless they specifically request otherwise. Set the standard you want and assume it’s good unless she gives different direction.

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah…she wasn’t American but the worst and most micromanaging boss I’ve ever had was the only person I’ve worked for who’s ever insisted on being copied in on absolutely every email. Because she was a total control freak and made it clear she didn’t trust any of us to do our jobs properly, so she wanted to be copied in so that once you’d left for the evening she could then email the person and say ‘Sorry, londonedit has got this all completely wrong, this is what you should be doing’ when she’d said nothing of the sort beforehand.

    11. Abated*

      I only do this on emails on special projects that also involve my manager. Not on all correspondence on all matters. That’s ridiculous.

    12. I Am Not a Lawyer*

      It’s not an American thing. It’s a micromanaging American thing.

      I would not expect your next manager to request it. You could maybe ask what type of emails they’d like to be cc’ed on, but don’t just start cc’ing them on all emails unless they ask you to.

    13. LKW*

      Manager in US here. I do not want to be copied on all messages. However what i will do is ask that a newer team member copy me for a bit to emails to clients so I can get a sense if they are asking the right questions, following professional norms, getting the answers or finding challenges. That gives me a chance to coach them, or if needed, step in.

      But at some point I’m just like “don’t copy me anymore”.

      I do not need internal emails unless I’m expected to contribute or they feel it beneficial.

    14. Ashley*

      Our office has a general standard of the support person and sales person both copied on email chains so either can jump in as their role requires, or someone knows what is going on if the other person is out. It isn’t a managing issue and it is more an FYI.
      Outside of that the one time I had to do it was for a micro-manager.

    15. another academic librarian*

      American here. Being ccd is a horror. The only time I wanted to be ccd like this was when I put someone on a PIP and was concerned about her professional correspondence and response time. Yes, I was micromanaging but for a reason.

    17. cheapeats*

      I’m a US-based manager, and if all my folks cc’ed me on all their emails I would get nothing done. And if I did that to my boss, she’d ask me WTH was wrong with me. Take your cues from the new manager and assume they are a normal person with actual tasking of their own.

    18. RagingADHD*

      It’s not a US thing. It’s a herself thing.

      Now, she may have come up through constantly micromanagy situations and *think* it’s normal. She may not be deliberately misleading you. She might just be wrong.

      But it’s not the case at all.

    19. Clisby*

      This is NOT standard in the US. Why not ask your new manager? “I know different managers have different thoughts on which emails they’d like to be copied on. What do you prefer?”

    20. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

      I guess it depends. I end up with my boss cc’d maybe 75% of the time because I work in product development and he needs to be in the loop on a lot of stuff.

    21. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’m guessing that your previous manager didn’t do 1-1 standup meetings, or there wasn’t any project tracking system in place and this was her clunky way of keeping on top of what’s going on in her department. It’s a terrible way to manage and there are definitely more efficient ways of tracking. All of my managers (in the US) have wanted regular updates on my work, and to be kept in the loop, but certainly did NOT wanted more emails. Your new boss will hopefully have a better system of tracking.

      One exception to that might be if you are in more of a personal assistant type job, where everything you do is an extension of the boss or in her name. That’s the only situation where CC on all emails would make any sense…maybe. It does show a lack of trust.

      1. Confused dot com*

        Lol, I wish. We have daily team stand ups, weekly 1-2-1s and a weekly status document we have to fill out.

        It wired because she has all this info and contact with us but rarely does she give any opinion or instruction so I feel like I can’t justify calling her a micromanager but she does get to set when we don’t cc her on on emails.

    22. cmcinnyc*

      In NYC if you cc too many people one of them will find you and hit you.

      OK not quite, but nobody wants a jammed inbox.

      I’m also finding it hilarious that your boss thinks she can airily blame the entire U.S. of A. for her own control-freak quirks. Because you’ll never hear different, the US being so small and obscure and no one ever meeting or interacting with Americans in a business context.

    23. A*

      Not in my experience. I’ve had a few managers that have made this request, but only in regards to certain types of requests/responses – not across the board on EVERY email. And then it was only due to the nature of the work and needing to ensure that a paper trail exists outside of just one individuals inbox. I’ve never come across that kind if request without a true business need for it, and definitely not in regards to every single communication. The majority of my managers have specifically stated they don’t want to be CCd on anything unless absolutely necessary.

    24. What???*

      Oh my gosh, NO. This is not at all normal (unless your boss ASKS you to do it). My boss would kill me if I cc’d her on everything, she already gets 400 emails a day. The default here is do NOT cc the boss. That is how I would start and if they want you to, they will tell you.

      1. What???*

        p.s. I would not ask ahead of time if they want you to cc them. That is just inviting micromanagement. I would start by not cc’ing them (since it’s not normal here), and if they want to be cc’d they will tell you.

    25. tamarack and fireweed*

      I used to work in the UK and had an American manager. He would never have asked for such a thing. Your manager is lying to you.

  24. anonymonster*

    Yay Open Thread —

    A rant but also looking for advice — I’m really frustrated with my the leadership of my org right now for its secrecy. I am currently the VP of Basket Making. My boss (COO) came to me last week to tell me that the current VP of Pottery is going to be working more closely with the president and needs to offload some of her responsibilities and wants me to take them on. She indicated that this would come with a title change (moving to Deputy COO) but not for a few months. She didn’t say more than that. I learned through another staff member that really the VP of Pottery is moving into a “Chief” role. I am pissed that my boss didn’t tell me this and even more pissed that she wants me to take on this extra work, all while the other VP is getting promoted, without giving me a new title.

    I’m planning on insisting the title change happens as of January. But, I am hesitant to give up my “VP of Basket Making” title in part because its will still be a big part of my job and helps with my credibility in the Basket Making field than just having the DCOO title (think when I’m quoted in the media, since our org does many other things besides Basket Making). Do you think I can ask for my title to be DCOO & VP for Basket Making? Also, what’s the best way to tell my boss that she was wrong not to tell me about the VP for Pottery’s new role and to demand the title change immediately?

    1. Reba*

      Well, I don’t think you can tell your boss she was wrong. I mean, I get why you feel a bit blindsided but just, you can’t go into this, like, Seeking Justice for the way the company decided to handle notifying people of their plans. What would be different for you now, if you had known that your peer was being promoted over you? You would still have more work and you would still be getting a promotion as well, right?

      The double title sounds confusing, but maybe makes more sense in your industry.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Is the new spot permanent or temporary? Sorry I really can’t tell from what you have here.

      But I’d recommend taking a step back for a moment. This is a company that keeps everything a big secret. Personally, I am cured on this place already. I am wondering if your reaction here is more about a long list of secrets rather than just this one and that is a much, much larger problem. If this is the case, fixing this secret won’t fix past or future secrets. The problem with secrecy will remain.

      1. DCQ*

        Yes, you’re right. When I was promoted to VP (along with 3 others) they conveniently left out that though they gave me a small increase, I was still going to be paid less than others who were in the level below where I was and >$30K less than the others at my new level. I demanded loudly to my boss that they fix it and they eventually did (after a year), but I’ve been frustrated since then. It feels like the same thing here.

        This is a permanent transition. The thing I’m frustrated about is her telling me she’ll give me the title in 6 months. Meanwhile my peer is getting a new title immediately. It’s not just a matter of taking on new tasks as she framed it to me.

        1. Reba*

          Oh, that changes things. You don’t trust them (with good reason)! It makes more sense that you would want things hammered out ASAP. I still think, though, that you need to keep it focused on your role, compensation and title, not the coworker’s.

        2. Cold Fish*

          Along that line, is this a promotion in title only or are you getting a bump in pay. If the latter, you might want to do a little market research into that as they’ve already shown they are willing to low-ball you.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      So, I think a few questions to ask yourself are:
      *What is the outcome you are aiming for when you are considering confronting your manager?
      *How reliable is your coworker’s information?
      *Assuming there is a title change happening for the VP of Pottery, how unusual is it in your company that they aren’t announcing it right away? How likely is it that the promotion hasn’t been decided on yet?

      And, just a check, you say you’re pissed that the VP of Pottery is getting a promotion, but you aren’t. You also say you would be getting promoted (?) to Deputy COO; is that not a promotion? Could it be that the shift in responsibilities, the VP of Pottery’s promotion, and yours are all moving parts of the same transition (i.e. both promotions being announced together in a few months)?

  25. Dino*

    Is there hope of finding a chill office job/receptionist position (with health insurance) if you don’t have prior experience doing those roles?

    I have a BA in my current field and like the work I do, but it’s a subsection of the profession that is call center based with lots of vicarious trauma and RSIs. I have several disabilities that make the attendance requirements really hard for me (working on FMLA, but my HR is slow and not helpful). I think my attendance would be fine doing an office based/front desk position. But I really need full time with health insurance and decent PTO/sick time.

    Is there hope?

    1. Nacho*

      Check temp agencies. That’s exactly the kind of thing they’ll find for you. You won’t get health insurance or PTO while you’re doing the temp work, but the experience will bake you much more likely to find a job where you have those things.

      1. Lady_Lessa*

        Sometimes, if you work through a temp agency long enough, you can get something like that through them. (assuming my memory is correct)

      2. Dino*

        I wish I could do temp agencies! Just one of my medications costs $600/month without insurance so I really can’t go without coverage for any length of time. But that’s a great idea, and I’ll keep it in my back pocket in case my situation changes

        1. pancakes*

          I have worked for temp agencies that offer insurance but don’t cover it, and do give some accrued PTO. Might be worth looking around.

        2. KX*

          When I temped (AppleOne & Eastridge) I had the option to get health insurance through the agency, as their employee. My tax documents came from them, too. I was not a “contract” employee. I had W2s and everything.

          This was technically ages ago but worth asking about if you are interested in temp work.

          I learned a lot as a temp. No regrets.

        3. fleapot*

          Could COBRA be an option to bridge the gap? I know it can be exorbitant, but last time it was an option for me it would have been less per month than the out-of-pocket cost of my meds. Might be worth investigating.

    2. Jortina*

      Maybe a school secretary position? My friend just started a job as head secretary at an elementary school. She was previously a lawyer. Public schools typically have great benefits.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Union jobs … check for jobs with your state or county sites, it’s amazing how many good positions people won’t even look at.

    4. Don't Touch My Snacks*

      I did this and now have delightful, fairly cushy job in higher ed. I know there are people in the world who have issues with higher ed and and I hear them but it was a great way for me to break into the kind of office job I wanted without direct experience; I just ended up loving the work, my coworkers, and the benefits/pension are great. At least in my state, in public higher ed these positions are being highly under-applied to. Like it used to be a posting could get 60 applications and are now getting less than 10 so it would be even easier to make the jump than it used to be.

    5. Twisted Lion*

      Yes! I got one at a non-profit. Pay wasnt awesome but great benefits. Also look into government admin jobs. Thats where I am at now with life insurance that I would never have qualified for otherwise :) Ps: my degree is in social sciences.

    6. RagingADHD*

      Yes, there is hope.

      I saw your comment that you can’t temp because of insurance needs. I would still encourage you to look at the agencies, because some of them do direct placements. You’d go in and do the skills tests, have them look at your resume/help brush it up, and get some advice about the local market and your specific need to avoid a lapse in benefits.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Hit send too soon. IME, larger and more stable companies (the kind with lots of reception/admin needs and good benefits) tend to outsource placement for these roles. Places that direct-hire for reception roles are often smaller and may not have the deep pockets that enable the kind of support system you’re looking for.

        Those aren’t absolutes, but it’s a general observation I’ve seen over the years.

        1. Dino*

          Oh dang, I didn’t know any of this! Thank you very much, I’ll start poking around local temp agencies and see what’s out there. Appreciate the heads up, RagingADHD!

    7. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Check cushy law firms! That was my first real office job after college, having only had retail/student type job experience before that. It paid decently, had great benefits, and aside from the odd busy period, was pretty quiet and chill. Might be tough now with a lot of lawyers still working remotely and being hesitant to open up the offices again, but hopefully that will change in time.

      There’s a post somewhere in the archives here that has a title like “what non-obvious things should I know about being a receptionist” and the advice there for roles like this is incredible. I referred back to it so many times.

    8. stornry*

      Check local government jobs. The entity I work for has 26 different departments and employees aver 7000 people (including hundreds of office assistants). We have entry level office workers in every department so the work can vary widely – some front reception, others back-office clerical. All full-time and insured (with loads of other benefits, like a pension!). Gov’t doesn’t pay as much as private sector but the benefits outweigh that. Check the City, County, State, and Fed websites where you live; look through the job classifications, and, if they got the option, indicate interest in those classifications you qualify for and like — our agency lets you do “interest cards” so you can be notified when we’re hiring for that class.

      1. Cassie*

        Seconding this. A few friends work for County of Los Angeles – massive entity (covering 88? cities) and they have ~100K employees, so they’re always hiring. Jobs range from entry level clerical and mailroom up to licensed positions like attorneys or social workers. The one (slight) downside is that most of the entry positions require applicants to take a test that is only offered once a year or even less. If you pass the test w/ 70% or higher, you’ll be placed on an eligibility list and departments will call for interviews based on the eligibility list.

        Once you get in to the County, moving around is not difficult – employees can even use work time to take the exams and go to interviews! Job offers full benefits, pension, vacation, sick leave, the whole shebang. Their dept that handles elections is always hiring for temporary workers (to handle verifying voter registration and stuff) – those positions don’t get the benefits, but it gives the workers some experience and also helps them get a foot in the door, so to speak.

        If you live close enough to a large metro area, govt jobs are really good and stable.

    9. Nessun*

      Short answer – yes, always continue to hope! Anecdotally: I got a job as a receptionist at a position with full benefits with no degree and no experience, just because I was computer literate and available.

      Long answer – it can be done – but it wasn’t an easy thing to find. It was a right-place right-time thing, and required me to really be on the lookout, and open to places I had never heard of/had no industry interest, and required me to sell myself HARD and look good on paper. I’d polish your resume to a mirror shine, be enthusiastic and friendly, show an inclination to help out wherever needed (there’s always work to do that is “someone needs to do random thing X and you’re someone”, and reception can be a good place to put up a hand and try to do just that) – so show versatility and willingness to learn. I do think it’s possible you can find something that doesn’t require experience, as long as you’re open to learning.

    10. Anon for this*

      I think you might have more luck looking for a different type of role.

      I’m sorry to be a downer, but I think this needs to be said.

      If you’re having regular attendance issues — even if it’s for something covered by the ADA — you’re going to have a much easier time looking for a position where coverage isn’t a big part of the job. A lot of individual contributor roles can handle issues like unexpected absences or late arrivals with little difficulty. Receptionist, in general, is not one of the roles that can handle that easily. I know you said you think your attendance would be fine in a typical office/front desk type of situation. But if you don’t have experience in that, and you have a history where attendance has been a problem, it’s going to be an uphill battle convincing a future employer that that won’t be a problem here. It might well be easier to first land a job where you don’t experience attendance problems but where coverage is not one of the key parts of the job, and then point to that as your evidence that the attendance problems were caused by the traumatic experience in the previous roles.

    11. MacGillicuddy*

      There was an article yesterday on NPR (radio) about worker shortages and competition for jobs. Both situations exist- openings jobs with variable or unpredictable schedules are not being filled. The article specifically mentioned receptionist jobs as having stiff competition for any open positions. They said that receptionist jobs are considered “entry level”, or at least a way of getting a foot in to a company. So people who don’t want jobs in food service or retail (because of the irregular schedules and often not enough hours to qualify for benefits) are applying for receptionist positions.

      On another note, some staffing agencies will consider you an employee of the staffing agency, and assign you to the client company as a “contractor”. (The contract is between the client company and the staffing agency, not between the client company and you). Because you’re a W-2 employee of the staffing agency, often there are benefits. And when the “contract” ends, you’re typically eligible for unemployment.

    12. Chaordic One*

      After I was fired from my job at “Dysfunctional Teapots” I was able to get health insurance through the ACA website at Healthcare dot gov. Even though my state didn’t participate in the ACA, I was still eligible for coverage as I did have some income from my temp jobs. Insurance from the ACA was a cost less than the insurance offered through the temp agencies I worked with. If you quit your present job and start working temp, you should look it.

  26. Saraquill*

    Does anyone else have trouble managing phones at work?

    I’m in a 20< person company with no receptionist. Anyone who has a phone at their desk is supposed to pitch in. The only straightforward instructions I’ve gotten was 1) Here’s how to use Hold and Transfer and 2) Never let the phone ring more than twice.

    Other rules include:
    Stay in your seat to page people, rather than rise and search for them, except when you shouldn’t.
    If the person is unavailable, take a message, except when you shouldn’t.
    If the person is unable to receive a message or is otherwise busy, here’s contradictory instructions.
    While on the phone, I should pay more attention to what the manager is saying to me right that instant than to the caller.
    I should know whether or a not a call is important by instinct.
    Important calls get priority. What “priority” is should be determined by instinct
    Never let the phone ring more than twice, but it’s somehow good form to keep a caller on hold indefinitely, particularly the important ones.

    As far as I know, I’m the only person in the company who struggles with answering the phones. Is there some inherent skill others have that I’m lacking?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t think you’re lacking anything; speaking as an experienced front desk person, these rules are crap and obviously made by someone who doesn’t / has never answered the phone in their life. There is no way to know by “instinct” if a call is important or not. Are you expected to screen calls, or just transfer them? Does your company even have voice mail?

      I would ask for a bit more clarification on what they define as important. Also, they need to hire a damn receptionist.

      1. Saraquill*

        As far as I know, I’m just meant to transfer calls. Company has a voicemail, though due to the “no more than two rings” rule, it’s mostly for off hours calls.

    2. Low Key*

      What the hell are these rules? This is why they should just hire a receptionist or someone takes over that phone line.

      I would just transfer to the right person and if that person doesn’t pick up, give the caller their email. Or even give the direct number of the person, if it sounds important and it’s not like a random person calling wanting to speak to the CEO. But like a client wanting to speak to regional sales manager, just give them the number, transfer the call and have the caller deal with the rest.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. You have no way of knowing what is urgent for some and not urgent to others.

        Look around for a level headed cohort, find out how they are handling it and copy what they do with the phone calls.

    4. RagingADHD*

      This is why they need a proper receptionist or admin person. Because the missing piece here isn’t actually instinct, it’s institutional knowledge. Which cannot be effectively maintained in a distributed network of 10-20 people. It’s not blockchain.

      Part of the art of being a good admin is learning the complex decision matrix that makes one call more important/urgent than another, when the best option is to hunt someone down vs. page them, etc. There are just too many inflection points to sum up in a blanket list of rules, and that’s why you’re experiencing so much frustration. Learning that matrix isn’t supposed to be part of your job.

      I have no advice other than to maybe ask your manager for a list of VIP callers and a single protocol for how to handle their calls as opposed to other calls. That may not work, but it might slightly help.

      I’m sorry you’re in this position as a result of your employer’s bad decisions.

    5. Cold Fish*

      Ugh, I hate phones to begin with. I think I’d have my ear buds in 90% of the day and “not hear” the phone.
      I’ve taken to answering the main line (when I can’t get out of it) with “This is MyCompany, how may I direct your call?” then transfer. I try not to get into any reasons why they are calling but this doesn’t really help if you are expected to try and help, rather than just transfer. I wouldn’t know what to do with all those rules.

    6. WellRed*

      It’s 2021 for Pete’s sake! Who has a phone system that doesn’t offer a menu with extensions?

  27. TheThatcher*

    Are cover letters unpopular? I have been seeing post after post on linkedin saying that they are “so 2001” and “this hiring manager won’t even look at one”. I think they are fed up with bad cover letters, because the specific complaints I have seen reference how “no one ‘has known since they were a child that they only wanted to do [specific job no child dreams of].'”
    So where do cover letters stand today?

    2. DCQ*

      I think the answer really is, it depends. A lot of hiring managers don’t look at them. But I personally do, and I can tell you if you just regurgitate your resume to me or if you just say “hey, here’s my resume attached” it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As Alison says, Cover Letters really sell you to me as the hiring manager… so besides time, there’s no cost to actually writing one.

      1. TheThatcher*

        Do you think that for hiring managers that do not like cover letters, a candidate who includes one (let’s say a strong cover letter for arguments sake) is hurt by the inclusion of it? I would assume if they hate cover letters, and don’t read them, they are assuming that the candidate has sent a bad cover letter in and that assumption hurts the candidate.

        1. DCQ*

          No, I don’t think anyone looks down on a candidate for doing “extra.” They just may ignore it and it won’t make a difference.

      2. Spearmint*

        There is a time cost to them. It’s much more work to write a custom cover letter for each position rather than just tweaking my resume. I still wrote them in my last job search, but they were by far the most stressful and time consuming part of the process for me, and I’m a pretty decent writer!

    3. Flag Major Donor Prospects*

      In my career field of non-profit, they’re requested and expected. I’ve never applied to another industry, but my husband works in security and they’re requested and expected there, too.

      I’d like to get rid of them, but I’ve hired and understand why they’re still requested/expected.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I really don’t like writing them and I’m sick of doing it. But I don’t want to get rid of them; they’re useful for explaining things that aren’t covered in your resume, such as why you’re applying to an out-of-state job or discussing a skill or experience in more detail, etc. If I were hiring, I’d want to see something besides just a resume so I have some idea of why the person is interested in that particular job.

        1. Siege*

          If I hadn’t already been a believer in cover letters, being on the last hiring committee we did would have converted me. We had a candidate who had the weirdest job history I’ve ever seen (mine is now in second place) and because they didn’t include a cover letter, we didn’t understand why they were making the jump from Bean Farming to Cat Herding by way of Professional Yelling With Light Sweeping. I guess maybe the Yelling helps with the Herding? But the Farming, Light Sweeping, and most of the Yelling make no sense at all for a career path, and the candidate was clearly relying on the fact that our overarching organizational mission is Enraged Teapots and their Yelling experience was in an Enraged-Teapots-activated industry. A cover letter would have helped. As it was, we declined to interview.

          (I had more fun writing this comment than I should have.)

        2. Flag Major Donor Prospects*

          @Elizabeth West nailed it. They’re time consuming and the tailoring is annoying – like writing a new thesis each time. But, if well written add context to job hopping, non-lateral moves, employment gaps and so forth. I’m sure they’ve helped me as I’ve moved 8 times in the past 15 years as a military spouse, Reservist and now to a civilian who moves a lot.

          My frame of mind towards them has changed. I know look at it this way using this specific sentence, “I appreciate the opportunity to share my lived and professional experience that makes me qualified for this position.” I’m sharing my whole person with them and hopefully in a human manner.

    4. not a doctor*

      I was chosen to interview for my current job based on my cover letter (they told me that it was one of their favorites), so they matter to at least some people.

    5. Panicked*

      I LOVE cover letters. It tells me so much about a person’s personality, if they’ve done any research on the company, and what they have to offer that doesn’t come across in the resume (like soft skills). I find them especially helpful if a person is changing career fields. If I get just a resume with no related experience, it’s going in the trash. But if I get a cover letter that explains the change, I’ll give them more than just a cursory glance.

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        Obviously everyone has different takes, but for me this is almost exactly the opposite. Yes, it shows you part of their personality, but for the most part, the people that would excel in the positions I hire for need to be nerdy about numbers and problem solving, and not about writing or self-promotion. If I relied on cover letters I feel I would miss out on a lot of qualified candidates. I also can’t imagine what someone could say in a cover letter that would make up for key experience being missing.

        But for me it boils down to I know I’m good at the job and a cover letter is near torture for me, so I don’t ask for them. I’m more likely to have issue with the disorganization of the resume itself as I think that speaks to your ability to present information in a way that is easy for readers to digest which is important in finance.

        1. Panicked*

          It really does depend on what you’re hiring for! I hire a lot of sales, so personality is huge for me!

    6. Loulou*

      A lot of random online people seem to hate them and I’ve even seen people implying that Alison is off base or out of touch for writing about them so much.

      In my field (libraries) they’re really important. I do ignore a lot of Alison’s specific cover letter advice (length, how many of the qualifications to address) but her advice about using the letter to connect your experience with the posting is spot on.

      1. Xena*

        I’m going to guess that they hate writing them (which, same). Which is not the same as them being useless.

    7. JitzGirl11*

      I am currently hiring for a communications role with a heavy emphasis on writing, and cover letters are essential. The vast majority of candidates did not submit one and we went back to top contenders to ask for one before we would phone screen them. I know there is different advice out there on cover letters – as well as different awareness on their value, particularly for newer grads or candidates who may have come from backgrounds where their parents or mentors didn’t have jobs that required them – so I didn’t immediately discount any candidates solely for the lack of cover letter. But at the same time, writing is too central to the role for me to consider a candidate, who after we reached out to request the letter, did not respond. Once received, the cover letters were absolutely a factor in who got interviews. (For context, for whatever reason, our system is not set up to require cover letters as part of the application for individual jobs. If that was set as a requirement, it would be for all jobs within the organization, and they don’t want to require it for every role.)

    8. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I think it comes down to the role/industry.

      Last hiring round I was part of we sorted resumes and, if one was on the cusp of going into the interview pile, we had a look at the cover letter. The role we were hiring for had a heavy writing component, so we also read the cover letters of those in the interview pile. I like them as they help flesh out some interesting tidbits on resumes and can make it easier to formulate interview follow up questions.

      Now my partner is in a very fast moving, high demand field and industry that doesn’t require formal writing. He has a bit of a template cover letter just in case but thats about it – anyone cranking out cover letters in that field would be considered odd.

      Those blanket statements of ‘so 2001’ are just that – everyone knows their field best!

    9. cmcinnyc*

      I was reviewing resumes yesterday. Only about a third of the applicants included one. None of them were good cover letters. A few applicants didn’t have fully relevant experience. Two of them included cover letters–but missed the opportunity to say something like “I’ve been painting teapots successfully for 10 years, but I’m now looking for work in llama grooming because I really want to work outdoors.” The letters were mostly business gibberish about being a proactive self-starter who loves a challenge. I don’t think we’ll be interviewing those candidates unless we start scraping the bottom.

      The best resume had no cover letter and didn’t need it. But if you feel at all borderline, a cover letter can get you an interview.

    10. Cheezmouser*

      Agree with all the above who say it depends on the industry or position. My field requires strong writing skills, so a cover letter is a must when I’m hiring for entry-level or mid-level positions, because I use it as a writing sample. A strong cover letter can move a candidate with a sparse resume to the “to interview” pile, and a poor cover letter can move a candidate with a stellar resume into the reject pile.

    11. tess*

      The best cover letters I’ve ever seen were ones that responded to the direction my workplaces gave for what they wanted to see in the letters, e.g. what is it about the responsibilities of the job that motivated you to apply; what skills do you have that are transferable to this position; what has been the impact of your work; etc. As such, I think sometimes cover letters are unfairly maligned. If you’re looking for specifics in a cover letter, say what they are in the job ad, and then assess applicants in the first stage of things by how well they stuck with your direction. No one is a mind reader.

      Also, it’s a bit halting to see how little regarded good writing is, especially in this context. Someone might be a whiz with numbers, but good, clear communication is useful in any context. I remember when, in the ensuing days after the 9/11 attacks, I was working a retail job. During the anthrax scares, our store received a memo from the home office instructing us on how to handle package deliveries. The memo was so poorly written we had no idea of exactly what to do. The author was the CEO.

  28. ferrina*

    I work with a chronic brain dumper. She’s a senior to me (overseeing some of my projects), and whenever we work together she loves to ramble. She talks a LOT- 5 minute calls regularly go 30+ minutes. She likes to say all of her thoughts at once- she never has prepared bullets on anything and tries to process information and give instructions at the same time (yeah, that doesn’t work well). She regularly tells us to go in one direction, then changes her mind and we have to re-do work. She’s also constantly late on reviewing or providing feedback.
    I’ve tried to ask clarifying questions or repeat back what I hear her saying, but this spurs a launch into another brain dump. Anyone have any tips for dealing with this?

    1. Hannah*

      I think the brain dump is different from changing her mind or being late. You really can’t do a lot with the latter two but for the first – I actually do this too. What my staff have found helpful (and I try to do at the end of my processing) is to end out the call with the bulleted list. Basically “ok, after all that we’ve decided on A, B and C, correct?” You can either do this multiple times until she gets to the end of her brain dump or you can do it via email as a “just want to document the final decisions” and hopefully avoid another 30 minutes on the phone.

      1. pancakes*

        Nah, you don’t have to wait out 30 minutes of rambling! You can and should interrupt someone who does this. Lacking self-awareness doesn’t entitle them to steamroll over others or waste other people’s time. It looks like there’s quite a few letters in the archives where Alison has answered this exact question. Search the site for coworker rambles and you’ll get at least three letters, including one from last week titled “How to manage an employee who rambles.”

        1. Hannah*

          Ehh, if one of the things I need from my staff is to listen to me ramble, I feel like that’s ok for me to ask. I make sure they’ve got plenty of time for the work they need and are supported in other ways.

          1. pancakes*

            Do you really need them to listen to you ramble, or do you need to ramble to get to lucidity? What would happen if you rambled to yourself and brought others into the process after you’d sorted out your thoughts? I don’t think it is ok to use people as basically interchangeable warm bodies, or props, just for the sake of having an audience.

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            For what it’s worth, I think there’s a difference between long rambling and a brain dump. A brain dump can be totally fine in a work context if it’s framed as “Let me get out everything I think on this topic and then we can sort through it and figure out the right next steps.” I think that’s what Hannah is talking about.

            What isn’t okay is just long rambling because the person is a rambler who isn’t having a real conversation but is just monologuing (a) to hear themselves talk, (b) because they like an audience, or (c) because they’re inconsiderate of other people’s time. But that’s not what I think when I hear “brain dump” the way Hannah used it in her initial comment (I’m less sure about the second!).

        2. RagingADHD*

          Seniority matters.

          If the most senior person chooses to delegate the task of “organize these thoughts into bullet points” onto one of their employees, then that becomes one of that employee’s job functions.

          Employees don’t get to delegate that upstream (because you don’t delegate upwards), or onto their peers without consent. Even between peers, brain dumping in a planned brainstorm session is fine as long as everyone gets a turn.

          1. pancakes*

            Of course, yeah. It doesn’t sound like this is happening in planned brainstorm sessions, though – it sounds like it’s happening whenever ferrina talks with this person.

            1. RagingADHD*

              I think it depends on the relationship between this senior person and their oversight of these projects and ferrina’s role.

              If this person is essentially ferrina’s boss for these projects, and has discretion to assign roles among the team, then maybe organizing the boss’s thoughts is actually ferrina’s role within the project. Might make the job not a good fit for ferrina, but it is a job function that people hire for or assign team members for.

              1. ferrina*

                This is part of my role, and I have this role supporting several people. She is the only person where I struggle with this aspect of the role- no issues with anyone else.

      2. ferrina*

        Adding some context- the changing her mind happens at the same time as the brain dump. I can handle a brain dump that has some (mental) bullets in it – like LKW describes. But this Brain Dump + Changing Mind + usually at the last minute….I try to take notes and can’t even make enough sense of her to know what to note! She thinks she’s making sense, and I can’t understand her. Sometimes I’m scared to ask because I think I’ll look dumb.

        1. LKW*

          Hopefully (hopefully) she recognizes that she brain dumps. But more importantly if she can’t say “Huh, I think I’m wrong about this action, based on what I just said.” then you will always be in chaos. I am at least considerate enough to ramble, reach back to the points I made earlier to show relevance and sum up at the end. “So we have A, B and C and our actions are X Y Z”

          If she can’t do this… run.

        2. RagingADHD*

          You have to ask! It’s not dumb. People who need to process things out loud do better when there is feedback coming back to them, because they hear it and it helps direct or clarify their thoughts.

    2. LKW*

      Ooooh this is right up my alley. I am absolutely a brain dumper and I’m currently working with a brain dumper.

      First off – when someone asks me a question in email, I will provide a brain dump but it is an organized brain dump. It’s got bullets and sub-bullets. But if someone asks me on a call – I will go in many different directions because I want to give them the whole panoramic view and that means going to a few different places then tying the strings together (if I can).

      With my current brain dumper – I just take notes on screen and while I’m doing it I’ll say “I’ll clean this up and then send it to you or we can review it together”. It takes more time but it gives me the opportunity to write down everything he says, fine tune it and then ask follow up questions. It also means that the conflicts are right there on screen and I can ask “well is it a or is it b? or is this an it depends thing?”

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I was also thinking that following-up via email rather than verbally might be a better option. That would only work if the Brain Dumping Colleague @ferrina is dealing with doesn’t also stream of consciousness in email.

        In the email, keep it as short as possible. Use bullets and mark things, such as:

        DECISION: Blah blah blah
        ACTION ITEM: Ferrina to do ____ by Friday.
        ACTION ITEM: Brain Dumping Colleague to do ____ by Monday.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Classic external processor — someone who thinks by talking. Google it — there are some ideas online about how to deal with external processors. That said, my last boss was like this and I had to quit after a few months — I couldn’t take it.

      1. ferrina*

        I’m also an external processer, but this is just beyond! She sounds like she’s processing but thinks that she’s giving instructions. Then immediately changes her mind on half of what she just said, but it’s hard to tell which half!

        1. pancakes*

          I think that gives you a good opening for “I’m sorry to interrupt but I just want to make sure we’re on the same page here . . .” or something similar.

    4. ferrina*

      Thank you, everyone! This was a really helpful conversation and really helped me think through the issues. It’s not really the brain dump that I’m having issues with (brain dumps are a regular part of my job), it’s combination brain-dump/ramble + no follow-through step on sorting her thoughts. (Thanks Alison for pointing out that a brain dump should be followed by sorting through!)

      LKW, thanks for sharing your experience in talking vs writing. This person is much clearer in written communications, and I’m much stronger at processing written information rather than spoken. And thanks to everyone that pointed out that I need to stop being scared and start speaking up!

      I think I’m going to start cutting off the ramble early, pleading that I need time to process all the words and explain that I process better visually. IM is very acceptable at my company, so I’m going to start utilizing that more than calls. That should really help.

      Thank you so much, everyone!

      1. allathian*

        Good luck! Please update us soon on how it went when you started implementing some of the suggestions you got here.

  29. PolarVortex*

    Just wondering people’s thoughts after a conversation on an earlier post.

    What do you think are allowable religious items within a workplace? It was mentioned by one person that nobody should ever have to see iconography that would upset them – eg satanic symbols for christians, baby jesuses for anyone who doesn’t believe in baby jesus. While I don’t believe people should be putting up like, items mocking other religions, I think the other part can be a grey area.

    Could you have a one-a-day calendar with religious quotes? Probably fine. Should your entire cubicle be a shrine to your one true god? Probably not unless you’re working for a religious organization for said one true god.

    I don’t think one has a right to prevent attire that is required for someone’s religion at all – hijabs, yarmulkes, etc. But wearing a cross isn’t a requirement for christian religions (or at least the ones I know of) so does that get the pass of minor religious stuff to ignore or a bit strange for the workplace? Is that dependent on how large the cross is? Does anyone’s feeling change if they’re wearing a giant pentagram?

    1. DCQ*

      I think the golden rule here is don’t do things that could make others uncomfortable. Wearing a piece of religious jewelry? Not going to make folks uncomfortable. Putting Bible quotes in your email? Yes, that would make me uncomfortable (as a Jewish agnostic), particularly if it were coming from my superior.

      And I think if one faith can do it, then so can another. So if I want to have a desk calendar for Pastafarianism or Satanism I should be allowed to if you have one for Christianity.

      2. Dittany*

        I think the key distinction is whether the religious signifier forces other people to devote a lot of mental energy to it.

        So, a cross necklace? No big deal. It communicates that the person is Christian, but doesn’t promote the religion (unless you consider reminding people of the existence of Christians to be promotion), is notable without requiring a ton of mental space, and doesn’t require any communication beyond perhaps a polite “What a lovely necklace!”

        On the other hand, something like a Bible quote in a work email requires a certain investment of mental energy. It’s text in an email, meaning that you have to take in the words (even if only to conclude that you don’t need to do anything about it). Moreover, it doesn’t just communicate that the person is a Christian; it communicates that the person feels strongly enough about that particular Christian sentiment that they want to include it in their self-presentation, with a subtext of “This is a good way for people to be.” Even if it’s a relatively noncontroversial sentiment like “Love thy neighbor” it still requires the other person think about it more than they would about a simple accessory – especially if the email-writer is in a position of power over them.

      3. Eden*

        “Wearing a piece of religious jewelry? Not going to make folks uncomfortable.”

        Well, that’s not true. It doesn’t make you uncomfortable, but it makes other people uncomfortable. If you mean “it doesn’t make ‘reasonable’ people uncomfortable” then we’re just back to the original question of what’s reasonable.

        1. Fulana del Tal*

          If seeing my cross necklace or someone else’s yarmulke causing a person distress, that’s their problem to manage not mine.

          1. Admin of Sys*

            Does that include my pentacle? I mean, I agree with you, small religious icons on a necklace should be fine, but I know folks who are fine wearing crosses and absolutely want to police me wearing a pentacle.

            1. SnappinTerrapin*

              I’m not the person you asked, but here’s one data point:

              I’m a fairly conservative, evangelical Christian. Your pentacle is none of my business. Even if it made me uncomfortable, being tolerant is the right thing for me to do.

              I don’t wear visible symbols of religion myself, but I firmly believe that freedom of belief and of expressing that belief is a fundamental human right.

              I have discouraged the wearing of necklaces and piercings in workplaces where they posed a safety hazard to the employee, but the “content” or “message” of the jewelry wasn’t my concern. For example, police officers and security guards should think seriously about the risk of being choked by something tied around their necks, or the risk of injury if a piercing is ripped out during a confrontation. I can think of some similar risks in other industries.

              Otherwise, I don’t see much point in a business regulating employees’ jewelry, and especially not on the grounds of a statement of faith (or lack thereof).

              That’s my opinion, for what it’s worth.

            2. Clisby*

              Your pentacle is fine. It would be fine if you were wearing a cross, or a star of David, or whatever. None of my business. Just like what other people wear is none of your business.

          2. Eden*

            So surely you agree that “things that won’t make others uncomfortable” is not the correct litmus test here?

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think that people should be fine with small items of religious jewelry & clothes that are required/preferred by their religion. To me, it’s more of a “looking professional” thing when it comes to jewelry.

      It absolutely does not bother me if others have items at their desk that have to do with their religion, as long as no one tries to proselytize at work.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is where I fall. I don’t have a problem with someone wearing a cross or having a picture of Jesus holding a lamb in their cube. Unless I ask, however, I don’t want to hear about it, nor do I think it’s appropriate for you to paper the break room with said picture.

        Just seeing iconography of a religion other than your own isn’t inherently offensive. Other religions exist. I feel like if the aforementioned Jesus person is upset that I’m wearing a mala or have a tiny Buddha statue on my own desk, then they’re being a giant hypocrite.

      2. PolarVortex*

        But would you feel differently if it becomes more performative but falls within professional wear?

        EG a coworker wears a giant cross – about the size of the palm of your hand – necklace around their neck daily.

        1. Siege*

          I have a not-a-coworker who wears a cross the size of my hand. It’s plain wood, so it’s kind of weirdly ascetic, and it hangs pretty low so it’s front-and-center of every interaction. I was predisposed to dislike this person anyway because it was like someone said “let’s take every personality trait Siege hates and make them into a person and then make it so she knows them” but the cross being so visible is kind of a problem. I’m sure a bunch of people will tell me I’m a bad person who’s wrong about Christians and anyway the ostentatious ones aren’t REAL Christians (because No True Scotsman needed an update), but I am SO TIRED of ostentatious Christians hating me because I’m not a person whose life or personality or presentation to the world they like. I literally had an experience where my niece-in-law was describing the clothing women wear that she thinks are ungodly (she is extremely evangelical) and … she was describing exactly what I was wearing, which was totally appropriate to the situation at hand, since it was an above-knee skirt and camisole at a casual family dinner in the summer. She did not appear to realize what she was doing, either. And it’s not just Christians. We interviewed a potential roommate once in college, who it turned out was Orthodox Jewish and would not speak to me or even look at me because I’m a woman. He didn’t get the room.

          Anyway, I guess what I’m saying is if you want to wear a six-carat diamond cross or an entire scapular or an ostentatious display of your faith, you better be prepared for the fact that maybe YOU are lovely, but people who’ve been exposed to repeated negative treatment by members of your faith can’t tell you apart from the ones who want you to die because you’re a heathen.

          1. pancakes*

            You are speaking as if individual people are ambassadors for or representatives of the religious traditions they ascribe to and I don’t think that’s a good practice. It’s a big world out there, and there are as many ways of being Christian or Jewish or what-have-you as there are of not being religious at all. I know there are many small towns and smaller cities in the US where it doesn’t seem that way and isn’t that way, but that’s cultural, not just religious.

            I think you’re also probably mistaken in thinking that your evangelical relative who described your clothes as “ungodly” to your face had no idea what she was doing. It sounds like she knew exactly what she was doing!

            1. Cold Fish*

              Sorry, but if you announcing your religion to the world (by jewelry/clothing, cubical decoration, quotes, etc.) you ARE an ambassador/representative of your faith. It may be a big world out there but my view of the world is dependent on what I’ve been exposed to. Just like if I were to wear a company sweatshirt to a book burning, that would reflect poorly on my company. Even though the only company involvement was by employing me.

              (BTW, I adore books. I had a hard time tossing textbooks that were 10 years out of date!)

              1. pancakes*

                It’s your choice, of course, but if you’re thinking that people with religious necklaces or calendars or whatnot are representatives of their religious background while people from the same background who don’t happen to have those things visible are not, you’re probably going to be making a number of superficial and inaccurate guesses! That wouldn’t work for me where I live. I’m in NYC. If I were to assume that there are no Jewish people in a particular place just because there’s no one visibly wearing a yarmulke, for example, that would often be wrong, because we have a wider variety of Jewish people here than that. I don’t believe that everyone who wears religious jewelry or has a calendar on their wall is doing so with the aim of making an announcement to the world, either. There are a number of people in this thread who’ve said they wear small crosses, for example, and if we could get them all together (with Madonna? why not) they’d probably have some things they agree on and some things they don’t.

                I’m not sure what books have to do with the matter.

              2. Loulou*

                This is effed up, sorry, you and Siege should both either get out more or realize why people normally keep views like this to themselves in a liberal society.

                1. I heart Paul Buchman*

                  Views like what? I don’t think either commenter is being offensive. They are putting forward their perspective on the question asked. Isn’t that why we are here?

                  Personally, I am not offended by representations of faith (yes, including the examples given above). I consider myself to be part of a liberal society.

                2. pancakes*

                  Can you honestly not see why people would have a problem with the idea that meeting a terrible person from ________ religion is a good basis for thinking everyone from _________ religion is similarly terrible? It’s simple-minded bigotry whether you personally are offended or not.

                3. Loulou*

                  Thanks, pancakes! Yes, it’s just plain bigotry and that kind of thinking has no place in a pluralistic society. I know we all deal with our own biases but these are thoughts you should keep to yourself until you’ve managed to get rid of them.

            2. Philosophia*

              Individual people ARE ambassadors for or representatives of the religious traditions they subscribe to when they act in the name of their religion, or ascribe their actions to it. No matter what the religion says, it is the sum of what its adherents do qua adherents.

              1. pancakes*

                That’s a different question, and I think most of us agree that Janet in Accounts Payable isn’t somehow an emissary for the Catholic Church just because she wears a cross necklace or has a little Christmas tree on her desk.

                The replies to this question are sprawling in the same ways they nearly always do when people decide to reinvent the wheel on this topic. We have a lot of legal guidance in the US on how much religion is too much religion for workplaces and public spaces, but for some reason people seem to like to start from scratch.

                1. Nina*

                  The Catholic church, maybe not, but for some branches of Reformed or evangelical Christianity (btdt) Janet in Accounts Payable absolutely sees herself as an emissary for her church.

          2. Loulou*

            It’s truly wild that you got as far as the Orthodox Jewish example and still decided to post this screed?? Babe if you harbor negative feelings towards all visibly Jewish people because of this one dude in a story you very possibly made up…you might just be the normal kind of antisemitic!

          3. SnappinTerrapin*

            I would personally regard something that ostentatious as being in poor taste, even if the religious message were left out of the equation. In the case of the large cross, I would have thoughts about what the person was trying to say, but would keep them to myself.

            I’d try not to visibly shake my head or roll my eyes, but even when the spirit is willing, oftentimes the flesh is weak.

        2. Lizy*

          I think as Charlotte Lucas said, it’s the “looking professional” thing for jewelry. IMO, a cross the size of your hand is not really professional, as it borderlines proselytizing because LOOK AT MY BIG CROSS I CARRY JESUS WITH ME ALL THE TIME, but that’s just my opinion.

          I’d probably roll my eyes internally, and blab to my husband about it, but that would be it.

          Not sure if it’s relevant perspective or not, but I do wear a cross daily. The one I wear most often is maaaayyyybe 1/2″ long, and the chain length is such that it often slips under my t-shirt neckline. The biggest one I have is maybe an inch, and has another token on it with my kids’ birthstones.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            I was raised RC, and you generally only see members of religious orders wearing crosses that large in that tradition. But their clothes generally also mark them as nuns, monks, or friars.

            1. tamarack and fireweed*

              Yeah, and indeed, if the person in this workplace *is* for example a nun (in a hospital, a school, or some sort of Catholic social institution) then it is in fact professional dress. And nothing to worry about in the absence of other conflicts with the religious nature of the workplace. I think I can perfectly interact with people from any religion that wear some kind of traditional clothing.

    3. CatCat*

      Unless all jewelry is banned, it doesn’t seem there’s any issue with wearing religious jewelry. It would be problematic to say only religious jewelry is not allowed.

    4. ferrina*

      It depends on the workplace and on the person. The workplace may have different policies or cultures, but it also depends on the tone and actions of the person. I’ve worked with people that had very distinct religious iconography, but they were kind and respectful to everyone at the organization, they would never start a conversation about religion or politics with anyone who wasn’t an enthusiastic participant (and even then, not in a widely public area). I’ve also seen people with more ambiguous religious iconography, but who were judgmental and disrespectful people. These people definitely got more side-eye for the less blatant religious iconography because everyone knew that they were doing iconography at other people.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      The only time I have a problem with it is when it’s done performatively.

      Had a colleague who made it a genuine practice to try to incite discrimination (so he could make a claim and get rich, apparently) … he made a display of icons of as many religions as he could find and just hoped that someone would complain about it.

      We were over him at that point, and ignored it as best as we could.

      2. PolarVortex*

        Honestly I would’ve made it a game to wish him “happy *insert wide variety of religious holidays here*”.

        But between managing calendars for people of multiple religions and my own religious beliefs, it would be pretty easy for me to be that petty since they’re all on my calendar anyhow.

      3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        The best part was that he was very vocally “an ordained minister” and in divinity school. But would NEVER indicate what denomination he was most aligned with, and had a sticker on the back of his truck that was from the same internet website that you might go to so you can perform your friend’s wedding ceremony in the woods.

        And was the least empathetic and least ethical human I’ve ever met.

        1. pancakes*

          My boyfriend registered as a minister on one of those sites in order to marry some friends of ours. (Not in the woods, fwiw). I find it amusing when people look down on that sort of thing as being insufficiently religious, because the irreligiosity of it tends to be precisely what draws people to it. We’re atheists and so are our friends that he married. I wouldn’t assume that someone who makes a point of putting a sticker from one of those sites on their car has any denomination at all, even if they’re in divinity school.

          2. Msnotmrs*

            I think the problem comes from when people call themselves “priests” or “ordained” in some made-up internet church. I don’t really care if someone goes online and becomes able to marry someone, that’s all well and good. But it’s purposely appropriating job titles (ones that come with typically years of study and sincere moral conviction) that makes it come off poorly. It makes you sound like a homeopath who calls themself a “doctor”.

    6. CBB*

      I think it make a difference whether you’re talking about an individual worker’s personal items kept on their desk (or worn on their body), versus items owned and displayed by the employer.

      In the case of the piped-in music from yesterday’s letter, that falls firmly into the latter category. If the religious worker had complained about a coworker listening to secular music on headphones, the answer would probably have been different.

      To answer your question, I think almost any item of religious clothing or jewelry is acceptable. As are small religious personal items displayed on an employee’s desk.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        This is also where I fall. Your personal clothing/desk space? Go for it. Stuff in shared office space? Agh.

        To be fair, I also get really irked by office Christmas decorations (Snowflakes, string lights, peppermint? Totally fine generic winter decorations. But hanging up red stockings and having a Christmas tree in the office are *religious* even if people don’t want to think of it that way), so I might be more sensitive to this than others.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Nah, I’m with you. The argument about Christmas decorations / whatever being secular is a false one, in the same way that folks claim ‘guys’ is gender neutral. It only works if you’re a member of the ‘assumed neutral’ group, but if you’re marginalized, it can feel a lot more exclusionary.

          1. Nina*

            off-topic, but I’ve had decent success with getting colleagues to use ‘folks’ rather than ‘guys’ by asking them (they’re all male, that’s another story for another day) ‘so, tell me about that guy you’re seeing?’

            I’m not a guy. I don’t like being included in ‘hey guys’.

        2. SnappinTerrapin*

          I am also irked by performative Christmas displays in the workplace. I respect your reason for being irked, but I have different reasons.

    7. Rainy*

      A one-a-day calendar with religious quotes I would have no reason to see unless you’re shoving it in my face. If I notice your calendar is churchy, you’re doing it wrong.

      I think I would really *really* have an issue with someone who did a cross wall in their office at work, and I wouldn’t go in that person’s office, ever. Personal ornament I don’t really care about it; if I notice it more than vaguely it’s probably because you’re shoving it in my face, and it’s really the shoving that’s the problem, not the actual item or religion or whatever.

    8. Black Horse Dancing*

      Problem is Satanism is a religion. So if Christians get offended, well, they are out of luck. I love no religious stuff at all but if someone is wearing a cross or anything else, fine as long as they are not proselytizing. Pentagrams, Satanistic jewelry, whatever is acceptable as long as they are all treated consistently. If you get upset with a Baphomet statue but are ok with a crucifix, that’s an issue.

      1. PolarVortex*

        Oh I don’t disagree here! I am not christian nor a satanist, but I recognize both are valid religions. So the fact people get upset with one over the other is where I have seen people getting bothered.

    9. Beth*

      I see an important line between, for example, jewelry and apparel — which is what you have in your personal space — and religious quotes in email — which you are sticking into my personal space. As a speechwriter once commented to me, people’s eyes and ears are bodily orifices, and you should think about what you’re trying to put into them, especially without consent.

      Decor is in the middle; if it’s subtle, I will assume that it’s for your own benefit, and if it’s huge and gaudy, I will feel that you are attempting to shove it onto me. Is the religious calendar a small thing on your desk, facing you, or a giant item on the wall, facing everyone else? Decor has its own kind of body language.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Yeah, this is where I fall, too. Religion is a personal experience, so personal clothing or small items on your personal desk space? Totally fine. Inserting religious messages/symbolism into work communications? Not fine.

        To be fair, I also get really irked by office Christmas decorations, so I might be more sensitive than most. But in general, I think with office decor, there’s a difference between generic seasonal decorations (snowflakes, string lights, peppermint, etc. in the winter; orange and black pumpkins in the fall), versus explicitly religious decorations (red stockings and a Christmas tree; Satanic imagery).

        This is also why I find it extremely annoying when people try to make it okay to have Christmas decorations by also sticking a Chanukkiah (Menorah) in the display. I’m Jewish, but my religion is personal and it’s super weird to have it publicly displayed in a workspace (and the expectation that I’m supposed to perform appreciation and gratitude for having been considered). PLUS doing this just marginalizes other religious groups — you can’t possibly include every religion in the world, or even the local community.

          1. pancakes*

            There is a hilarious thread making the rounds on Twitter right now of some confused & confusing Hanukkah merch Bed Bath & Beyond put out for Christmas. Search “Hanukkah pillow.”

    10. RagingADHD*

      I didn’t see that comment about “nobody should ever have to see iconography that would upset them” but I think that person is off the rails.

      The major distinctions to me are

      1) Whether the symbol/saying is in your own space (cubicle, laptop, body, mousepad) or in shared space.

      2) Whether the expression is for your own consumption/enjoyment or inserted into work-related time or communications. (wearing jewelry or having a screen background, fine. Email signature, no.)

      2) whether the symbol/saying overtly expresses hate or disparagement toward other people or groups. So for example, “God is peace” on your mousepad is fine. “X group is an abomination sayeth the lord” is not.

    11. Lizy*

      I think if we start going into “nobody should ever have to deal with something that upsets them” … I mean, sheesh. If you don’t like baby Jesus, don’t look. If you don’t like an upside down cross or a statue of Buddha, don’t look. If you don’t like football, don’t turn on the NFL channel.

      As others have said, I think it’s the balance between being yourself and not being rude or unprofessional. I personally wear a cross every day. No, it’s not a requirement, per se, but I honestly have had days where I’ve forgotten my cross and have just felt… off. Then I realize I’ve forgotten my necklace. So for me? Yes, it’s a requirement. I just feel better/more secure with it. But – and IMO it’s a big but – I do it FOR ME, and it’s a very small cross. The biggest one I wear is maybe an inch long and is with another pendent, so most of the time it’s covered up/not super visible. I do think it’s different if it’s a huge honkin’ cross that screams I LOVE JESUS. I probably wouldn’t say anything unless they were also non-stop talking about Jesus, too. At that point, IMO, it becomes more of a disruption than me just not liking your necklace.

      To me, unless it’s really offensive, starts to creep into being a distraction, or as you said, mocking others, let it be.

      And no – my feelings would not (do not?) change if someone was wearing a giant pentagram.

    12. Anonymous Hippo*

      While I’m sure someone could come up for an exception to this, but my general rule surrounding any/all office paraphenalia would be how much it intrudes into public space. So I think you could safely have a small whatever, something that’s virtually unnoticeable from walking down the hallway, but something very obvious and attention taking would be a no no.

      I would say the one-a-day calendar would be fine. I wouldn’t hang a cross up on the wall, but wearing one or having a small one actually down on the desk seems fine. I would expect the same consideration if I brought in something from the Satanic Temple. This is assuming they aren’t offensive in purpose, ie if something from the Satanic Temple is mocking theist’s, or a Christian item is bashing homosexuals etc.

      So, small items (under 6in desk, probably 2inch on body) in your own personal space (don’t put stuff in emails or the like that’s not your personal space), and be sensitive.

    13. Lora*

      Well, I have worked in clean rooms where the rule was No Jewelry Ever, no, not even a small cross necklace, and we did have to fire people who then complained about religious discrimination (and lost their EEOC case because No Jewelry Ever meant just that). And I did turn down a job offer earlier this year from a startup where the CEO had turned her office into what I can only describe as a walk in closet size shrine (not Christian) – it wasn’t the main reason I turned it down but it was a contributing factor type of thing. It was bad enough that a CEO didn’t seem to know how money works, but the whole giant multi colored shrine thing… it was WAY TOO MANY black velvet paintings of multiple deities, floor to ceiling, with statues and a table with food offerings, candles etc. I could not imagine this going over well with clients. In a biotech company. Heck no. For me it’s more of an aesthetic thing though, if I turned my office into a Dog Shrine with floor to ceiling badly done portraits of my dogs, wearing dog t-shirt, with bags of biscuits all around, I’d probably hear about it from my boss too. One photo on my desk is fine though.

  30. Don't Touch My Snacks*

    I used to work in a haunted church and had several weird experiences with our resident ghost.

    The first and most hard to explain away was I was in the commercial kitchen washing my backlog of coffee cups (I’m not the only one with a cup graveyard in my office, right?) and my lunch dishes. I had dishtowels laid out in the center of our metal counters and all of my stuff lined up so they could start to air dry while I finished washing. A coworker came in to chat while I worked and while we were talking several of the larger dishes FLEW off the counter and crashed on the floor a good five feet away. It was very, very creepy. We kind of just stood there in shock and then attributed it to Sophie, our resident ghost. I still have no other explanation for this as they were all very heavy, Pyrex style dishes.

    Another time I was by myself in the church and we were supposed to be completely locked up and empty. In the floors above my office I heard a door slam VERY loudly. I called our business manager who had me lock myself in my office and then had the police come do a courtesy check. They never found anyone and seemed to want to brush me off as hysterical or maybe someone else let themselves in but the time of day did not lend itself to that. I would really prefer not to be in that building by myself after dark ever again.

    Hope that was spooky enough for you.

    1. Don't Touch My Snacks*

      This was supposed to nest under a comment I no longer see; I hope the person looking for spooky office stories find it anyway.

      1. Bibliothecarial*

        I am not that person, but came to the open thread specifically for new haunted office stories, so ya made my day!

      2. Thoreauvian*

        If you’re referring to me, I just found it! I hope this thread gains tons of responses. Ironically, I was just going to post to ask the readers to share their ghostly work stories.

        1. Don't Touch My Snacks*

          I forgot to mention the best part! Part of the church had been built over an old graveyard and there was one of those old graves that you could see into the casket through a window under the pastor’s study! You could crawl through a tunnel under the church that you accessed through a hole in the ground of a closet. Every bit as dusty and creepy as you’d think it would be.

      3. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

        I was one of those looking for spooky stories – so yaaa!! There really aren’t many explanations for dishes or objects that just fly off shelves like that.

        Also I too worked in a S Baptist church, a small one, with a…not spooky but unsettling story. I don’t think it was the place that was haunted, I think it was the senior pastor who had an attachment, probably due to his behavior. He hurt me but I think he hurt someone else much worse. My experiences involved doors and lights being on when they should not have, and we had to rekey his office because things kept happening in there he wouldn’t talk about but asked if others had been in there. Three squirrels met their untimely demise in his inner study wall.

        My final experience was coming back to my office to see his office door and light, which I had closed and turned off ten minutes prior, on and the door wide open. It was extremely unsettling and odd to stare at that wide open door. Of course, I was laughed at when I asked about the building history. Trust me, it was all him.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Hmm, I wonder how you would send a ghost a bill for all the dishes that she broke. Sounds like a good case for having a ghost tuner! :’D

    3. Cold Fish*

      Last year, I came into the office to work on a Sat. (very unusual). I was alone. I heard a metallic thump in the hallway. When I went to look, the metal bracket that goes around the ceiling fire sprinkler head was sitting directly beneath the sprinkler head in the middle of the hallway. 1. I have no idea how it fell off as the sprinkler head is larger than the smaller hole of the bracket. 2. If it did just fall off, given it’s shape, it should have bounced off at a strange angle, not fallen directly below the sprinkler head. It was unsettling to say the least.

  31. Pantalones Help*

    This is really specific but does anyone have any recommendations for full-length dressy work pants for smaller-sized women? Most of my work pants are J Crew size 000 but they’ve discontinued making that size and my wardrobe needs a refresh really badly. Most of the major workwear brands like Banana Republic, Ann Taylor, etc, do not fit me. Just wondering if anyone has any secret go-to brands before I resort to spending a fortune on tailoring.

    1. coffee is my friend*

      I’ve had luck with express – though I always have to hem them (even if I but ‘short’ inseam).

    2. CTT*

      Have the petite lines in those brands not worked? I know they were my mom’s go-to when she was working, but it’s been a minute since she was last buying from them.

    3. 30 Years in the Biz*

      The brand Theory is sized really small. Pieces can be expensive, but I’m sure you could find some good deals on NWT or lightly worn items on Poshmark. I’ve had very good luck there. I recently bought a new J.Crew linen blazer for $25.

      1. Pantalones Help*

        Oooh thank you! I forgot about Theory. I didn’t used to be able to afford them, but now that I’m an established adult I can splurge a little! I’ll give them another try/see what’s on Poshmark and Thredup!

        1. mreasy*

          I recommend looking for your discontinued sizes on Posh too. They tend to have a ton of J.Crew and similar brands. I’ve successfully bought discontinued items I wanted to replace there.

    6. Reba*

      Check out the blogs Extra Petite and Alterations Needed for recs.

      I second Theory which was mentioned (sometimes can be found at Nordstrom rack and similar). Reformation is not exactly lots of workwear but it’s very slim. Boden could be worth a look as the fit tends to be slim. The Nordstrom store brands are inconsistent, but do start at XXS/00. Everlane and Uniqlo both run on the small side, at least they used to! Haven’t tried MM Lafleur, but it’s supposed to run a bit small and you can chat with a stylist.

      1. pancakes*

        Agree on Reformation, but in my experience Boden runs true to size to large. Maybe it’s changed in recent years, but I bought a raincoat from them in my normal size and had to send it back because I was swimming in it.

        Maybe Zara? Their sizing is often uneven but tends towards smaller.

    8. Tiny*

      I’m a similar size and have had good luck finding smaller sizes of dress pants in the junior’s section of various stores, most often Kohls

    9. Petite Pantalones*

      Eileen Fisher at aNordstrom ankle length pants fit like regular pants on petite women. They’re expensive, but look good & fit well.

    10. Sam*

      Fwiw, I can’t purchase pants off the shelf anywhere, even specialty size stores. I have them tailored every single time and they take 6 inches off the end. I don’t quite understand it, I’m average height, but I’ve always needed this tailoring.

      I even got my pajamas tailored when pandemic started.

    11. PizzaTwin*

      Try searching for 000 J Crew on ThredUp and Poshmark.

      The blog extrapetite.com has good recommendations for small-sized professional clothing, so you might try searching for pants she has reviewed.

      I have found good options at H&M in the past. However, sizing and quality are very inconsistent, so I really recommend shopping in person if possible.

  32. Daisy-dog*

    Not a currently relevant question, but I’m wondering: How do you tell your manager that someone in your family died and that you need time-off for the funeral? If email, what is the subject header?

    I opt for email. If I were to do it in person or on a call, then I know that I would cry and I don’t like crying during work.

    I know the answers will vary greatly based on your own relationship with your manager, but I was just curious what others do.

    1. londonedit*

      I’d probably use the date of the day I’d need off as the subject line. Something like:

      Monday 27th

      Dear Tabitha,
      Unfortunately my great-uncle Wakeen passed away over the weekend, and we’ve had word that his funeral will be held next Monday, the 27th. I’ll request the time off online as usual, but I wanted to let you know in advance so you’re aware of the situation.
      Best wishes,
      Londonedit

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m terribly sorry for your loss. For the subject line I would include the words, “Bereavement Leave Request” and in the body of the email keep it brief. You don’t need to disclose too much, just the dates you need off. You may get asked about your relationship to the deceased i.e. spouse, cousin, parent, etc. I’d close the email thanking them in advance for their support during this difficult time.

    3. mlem*

      I think it depends entirely on your manager and whether they knew the death might occur. My current supervisor would be fine with text or chat just as much as with email or phone.

      1. mlem*

        Left out the explanation of “whether they might know”. I’d probably lean more phone/email if they didn’t already know you might have to be out soon, since that’s often an easier way to shuffle obligations/commitments than text and chat are.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I got, a couple weeks ago, an email from one of my direct reports with the subject line “Family emergency” and the body, basically, “My (relation) passed unexpectedly this weekend and the funeral will be Thursday. I’d like to take Thursday and Friday off for the funeral and to be with my family – what do you or I need to do to make that happen?”

      In responding, I offered condolences, but since they had been pretty cut-and-dried about their email, I kept my response fairly matter of fact. “I’m so sorry to hear that – my deepest condolences to you and your family. Our bereavement policy grants x days paid time off for a (relation), so I’ll put that in for you – if you decide you need additional time beyond that, you would submit it through our normal PTO system and I would of course approve it ASAP. Best wishes, and please let me know if there’s anything else you need from me.”

    5. LKW*

      Unfortunately I’ve had to do this twice. The first it was a surprise and I was starting a new project and I just put my name and something like “unexpected PTO” and then in the body of the email managed to say that my dad unexpectedly passed and I would be out of the office for a few days and be back later in the week.

      The second time was less of a surprise and I was able to give my team a heads up that This is Going To Happen and then when it did, I was able to send a message : My Name, OOO until date with a message like “It happened. I’m out until date.”

      If your manager is reasonable they’ll simply respond – take the time you need. Be well. If not, then they will say things like you need to copy HR or you only get x days or “who is going to do the things?”

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Subject: Bereavement leave [request]
      “Hi Boss,
      I need X day off to attend a funeral for a family member.”

      Or

      “I need X, Y and Z days off because of loss of a family member.”

      For me, I’d ask in person, because that is just me. I want to hear the answer or handle any questions right in the moment. To me, emails drag everything out. I prefer to handle it and be done.

    7. Purple Cat*

      Personally, I would text my manager, and my direct report texted me when he was going to be out.
      That’s our go-to communication method for quick updates when we’re otherwise out of the office.
      You definitely do not have to do it in person or on a call. For an email my subject would probably be “time off Needed” But I also work in an organization/culture where we just tell our managers when we’re taking time as opposed to having to ask for permission.

    8. The Original K.*

      The last time I had to do this, my employer offered bereavement leave so I emailed my boss on a Sunday (the day I learned if the death) and told her my grandmother had died and I’d be taking bereavement leave the upcoming week. She told me I might have to use PTO; that felt wrong to me so I looped in HR (and it was indeed wrong, and HR corrected it). I think the subject line was “Bereavement leave.” It was fairly matter of fact: my grandmother died, I’ll be out all week and I’ll be using bereavement leave to do so.

    9. LC*

      For context, this was with a wonderful and supportive boss, small team that was very professional-friendly and worked well together, and it wasn’t at a particularly hectic time at work.

      I’m not sure how I would handle it in the future, but the time that I had to do this, I got a text from my mom while at work letting me know my (already sick) grandmother had taken a turn and probably didn’t have a ton of time left. I wasn’t particularly close with her, but my dad very much was, and I’m very close to my dad, so that hit me pretty hard.

      I poked my head in my boss’s office to let her know my grandmother was sick and I’d probably need time off soon and yes I’m fine and no I don’t really want to talk about it because I’ll cry and yes I’ll keep you updated and let you know if I need anything.

      Then when it happened, I think I texted my boss (it was outside of work hours and I wanted to get it over with, and texting each other about work stuff was a normal and accepted thing at this job) saying something like “Hi Boss, just wanted to let you know my grandmother passed, so I’ll need some time off this week. Currently looks like I’ll be flying out on Wednesday and should be back on Sunday.”

      Then when I’d booked my flight, an email (I think the subject line was something like “bereavement leave 11/1 – 11/3”) saying these are the days I’ll be gone, I’ll put an out of office on my calendar so the team knows I won’t be around.

      I think at some point I mentioned that I was totally fine with her telling people, I didn’t particularly want to spread the news myself but didn’t want people asking if my vacation was fun or whatever.

    10. SnappinTerrapin*

      Ironically, the day my first wife died, my employer (just started the job, too) called while the ambulance was at the house. I answered, told him I was dealing with a medical emergency and the ambulance was in the yard, and I’d call him back later.

      A few hours later, after the ambulance took her to one hospital and a helicopter took her to another, the doctor told me she was gone. My parents, my in-laws, and three of our four children had arrived by then. We dealt with the decisions that had to be made then, and comforted each other.

      After calling several close friends – and I was still in the phase of only controlling my emotions for a minute or two at a time – I returned the boss’s call. When I told him she had died, he immediately offered to work with me on the schedule. I did work a couple of nights that week, because the routine helped with my mental health. He came to my post and checked on me both nights, and accommodated the nights I needed to be off.

      That’s a long story to get to the main point. Everybody has deaths in their families, and we don’t get to choose when they come. Most people are sympathetic and want to help in that situation, even if they exhibit other flaws.

      I think any medium of communication can be appropriate, in the context of what works for your workplace.

      Although I choked up a couple of times during the phone call, it was sort of part of my way of working through my grief. I respect people who have different ways of handling grief. What worked for me wasn’t the universally right way for everyone.

    11. Middle Manager*

      Probably depends on your office culture and communication norms. I’d likely text my boss if it was during non-work hours and my employees would probably do the same. If it was during the work day when I knew they’d be checking email, I’d probably email with a subject line “Personal Leave.”

  33. MakingASwitch*

    I’ve been in the non-profit world since graduating in 2015. During that time I’ve been at two different organizations progressing to a manager level. The last year, with COVID, I’ve really started to re-evaluate my priorities and want to make the switch to a for-profit company. I’ve reached a place in my life where I would like more of a work-life balance, a higher salary, and better benefits. I’ve never had to make a career switch like this before. Any advice on what types of roles to look for with a background in fundraising? And any suggestions on how to approach it in an application process? Thanks!

    1. batch check*

      I’ve been in non-profit for 20 years. I want to wish you good luck. I’m not familiar with for-profit enough to suggest any career field other roles. Seems like marketing, sales, client services, program management, communications could be a good fit.

      Good luck!

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      There is a lot of turnover in nonprofit fundraising roles, and I’ve seen many former colleagues switch to the for-profit world. As the other commenter mentioned, recruitment, sales/marketing and client relations seem to be common places for people to land. (I had a former fundraising colleague who went on to be a recruiter for one of the Big Tech companies.)
      If you worked a lot of events and enjoyed it, you could consider events management. Also, a lot of ex-colleagues from an old job wound up working for our big corporate sponsors, so if your nonprofit has corporate sponsors, it might be worth looking at your contacts there for ideas.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      A friend did non-profit marketing and communications and was able to switch to for-profit marketing and communications. Fundraising is a huge field, so mentioning this in case you had a comms element to your fundraising roles. After all, fundraising is really what nonprofits call marketing a lot of the time!

    4. Filosofickle*

      One bridge option that comes to mind is corporate philanthropy — sometimes that’s a cause / community group within the for-profit corporation, or it can be spun out into its own big entity like Gates Foundation. Even though the spun-out foundations might be non-profit, in my experience ones that are related to big corporations or founded by corporate leaders tend to match for-profit standards for pay and benefits.

      Your NFP experience could be used anywhere, but might be really attractive in those environments. For example, if your fundraising included applying for grants, then being on the grant giving side would be an easy transition.

    5. Three Seagrass*

      I worked in grant writing before making the switch to the corporate world. I found my skills translated directly over to proposal writing and management. A lot of sales is very similar to fundraising/development work: setting your quotas, finding your leads, strategizing. We have a whole team that is dedicated to giving strategic support to the sales field at my org and several of us came from non-profits.

      As for the application process, pull items from the job posting and showed how you have experience doing that in your current role. Make it clear that while you may be in a different industry, you are using the same skills.

    6. Aphrodite*

      My community college has a fundraising arm if you like that kind of work ( https://www.sbccfoundation.org/ ). While academia has a lot of issues, it does have benefits almost not to be believed, at least my college does. They include 8-24 days vacation per year, 12 days of sick leave per year (that can be accumulated without limit), four medical plans with vision, three dental plans, about 15 paid holidays, a state retirement account, a strong union for classified employees, and many more. So if you are willing to look at higher education you might find something decent. Just be aware academia in general works like government; it has its rails ands doesn’t deviate much from them. Don’t expect innovationn.

  34. Upcoming free agent*

    My company has layoffs coming and all indications are that my group will be eliminated. What type of things should I be negotiating as part of my severance? I had seen a comment at some point about considering salary continuance v. a severance package, but are there other things people have asked for?

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      One thing that you should make sure of is that any non-compete agreements are nullified. Once, I had to lawyer up, because the company wouldn’t give me severance unless I signed a paper saying I was leaving voluntarily. I knew that it would mess up my unemployment insurance.

      Find out if the severance would be paid as a lump sum vs spread out over a period of time. That would affect your taxes and also when you could file for unemployment.

      1. Lifelong student*

        Actually, I was once terminated from a position but given two weeks pay in lieu of notice. I applied for UC the next day. In my state, there the first week when you are unemployed is not covered under UC- it is called the waiting week. In my case, that was deemed to be my waiting week. I think- but don’t remember exactly- that the second week of pay was more than the UC- so no UC that week. But the 3’d week was covered under UC- so in effect I did not suffer the waiting week. YMMV

    2. RussianInTeaxs*

      I’ve been laid off twice, and nothing was negotiable. The severance package last time was generous – 2 weeks pay for each year worked, capped at 26 weeks, payout of the unused accrued PTO, and the company continued to pay premiums for the medical insurance for the next 6 months.
      However, it was a large corp, the rules were written in stone, and you were not allowed to ask for anything outside of the standard package.

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        That is exactly the severance package I received in 2020. Nothing about it was negotiable. It was strictly a take it or leave it deal.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Same with me – two layoffs, both with larger companies, and everything was standardized. The first one even had a clause that if you took the severance, you could never work there again, which STILL strikes me as strange.

        (The payout of unused PTO is the law in Illinois, so I got that even when I got fired; that doesn’t strike me as overly generous.)

        1. RussianInTeaxs*

          It is not a case in my state, and depends on the company policy. But the medical was generous, you did not have to go on COBRA for the first 6 months, they kept the premiums at your pre-layoff level if you wanted (they were taken out of the lump sum, so you had to agree to them).
          My premiums at the time were $30/month (2015, a combo of a low-premium HSA + various wellness and non-smoking discounts), so I agreed to that, would not be that much money to lose even if I did find another job fast.

    3. Purple Cat*

      Agree with RussianInTexas that you may not have any options in negotiating. Especially if it’s a large company with a lot of layoffs coming. They will need to keep things standard.
      Things to ask/think about:
      – length of pay
      – is it lump sum, or continuing
      – how long is health insurance covered
      – Any job coaching/placement help offered

    4. irene adler*

      A positive recommendation or reference-including an affirmative to the “would you re-hire this person if circumstances allowed” question.

    5. beach read*

      Not sure how you might negotiate it, but when my company laid off a huge amount of the workforce, they hired a company to assist those displaced with resume building and writing, interviewing skills and lots of online resources. I’m sorry I don’t remember the name to share with you but I found it very helpful.

  35. yeah*

    Folks who’ve started a new remote job or had new coworkers sign on, do you have any advice for my first couple weeks? The articles I’ve googled up seem to be of dubious quality.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Recommend my new staff member book a 30 min video call with each person to get to know each other and let the new person know what it is they do and how their jobs collaborate. Good luck!

      1. ferrina*

        This! A simple coffee chat to get to know them. Also recommend doing a follow up chat in a month or two if you don’t regularly work with them (but still need a good relationship with them).

        Also, smile more and be clearer in your words than you might usually be. Without body language and the dubious zoom facial expressions, don’t expect them to read sarcasm or subtle signs like they would in person. Smiling more helps mitigate the loss of welcoming body language (like standing while cheating to the speaker to make them feel included), and using words to say things like “sorry, I should warn you I have a wacky sense of humor!” can help contextualize that subtle pun.

    2. cactus lady*

      Take some time to talk about non-work things with your new coworkers. I feel like people sometimes think that’s awkward to do online, but it goes a LONG way. You don’t have to be besties but it helps build camaraderie if you know that Jane has a basset hound name Hugo and Lee has twin daughters that play volleyball.

    3. wingmaster*

      Like what everyone said, set up 30 min calls for an informal intro with your co-workers. And make sure you work with IT to ensure your computer setup/VPN works. I find it really helpful to have dual monitors and IT was helpful to get my remote set up going.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I started a new job remotely in January. I had so, so many Teams/zoom meetings and it was a lot, but it did help me put names and faces together pretty quickly. Just be prepared to have some camera fatigue and know it will feel a little weird at first. Don’t be afraid to IM or email people, and as tiring as being on camera can be, it can help for short meetings so you get to know people a little better.

    5. yeah*

      Thank you everyone for your advice! Knowing that I should shoot for 30 minute introduction calls with everyone is good to know, if slightly daunting due to the size of the department, and following up with a second call in a month or two is a great tip. I’m a pretty reserved/private person and I’m worried the all-remote aspect of the job will worsen it (because I’m used to my online communication being primarily fandom-focused, where I deliberately share as little information as possible) so maybe I’ll try to brainstorm things to share!

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      At my company (~30 people), at some point during their first two weeks the new hire meets for about half an hour with each team in the company. This is just general getting-to-know-you type chit-chat: what each person’s role is at the company, and a little bit of personal information (like the stuff cactus lady mentioned).

      On my team, there are also 1-1 meetings with each team member on our team and our counterpart team for a more in-depth discussion on a particular topic. This can either be a broad topic about our system in general, or a more specific topic that the experienced employee is the local expert in. These are meant to give the new hire a high level overview of our work, and a way for them to get an idea of who to go for when they have questions on a specific topic. These are usually scheduled for about 2 hours each, so we try not to do more than 2 of these 1-1 meetings a day (one morning, one afternoon). Some days there may be only 1, some days there may not be any. It usually takes about a month to get through all of them. (This is actually something we did even before going remote, so we just transitioned it to virtual meetings instead.)

      All of these meetings are scheduled either by the person’s manager or by a more senior co-worker. This means it’s being done by someone who (a) knows who should be in each meeting, and (b) can get the meetings on the calendar in advance. If your manager can’t set these up for you, they should at least be able to provide you with the names of people who would be helpful for you to meet with.

    7. LC*

      Advice for the boss or the team – keep in touch. Proactively. Without knowing people, it’s so easy as a new person to feel like you’re asking too many questions, reaching out too much, bugging people, etc. So proactively reach out. Don’t let them feel like they’re on their own.

      Having an active team chat is amazingly helpful (lets the newbie ask questions to the group so whoever is free first or whoever knows can answer, they can go back and search stuff previously said, they can get exposure to what other people are working on and what questions/challenges they have, etc.)

      I really, really appreciate when one of my new team members messages me and says “hey I’m going to do a thing that would be helpful for you to learn, want to hop on a call and I’ll walk you through what I’m doing?” Then next time, I’ll do it with them watching me with however much help I need.

      I’m five months in and don’t get that so much anymore (and I really wish I did, there are so many different facets of the job that I haven’t even been exposed to yet), so advice to a new person is to reach out and ask for that. Another helpful thing about group chat. If I see that two of them are talking about a thing, sometimes I’ll jump in and ask if I can hover while they do the thing.

      Other advice for the new person –

      Figure out how you best take notes and try to keep it consistent. I started using OneNote and have really liked it. That’s where everything goes – notes from meetings, brain dump ideas/questions, step by step of a process a learn, to do lists, everything. I have my personal notebook that I have moderately organized into broad sections and more specific pages (the more pages the better for me, as long as I label them well) and I also started a shared notebook for a project where I was taking a ton of notes and putting together a lot of documentation and laying out ideas, but wanted my coworker to be able to see all of it so I didn’t need to send her word docs all the time.

      If you hear a term or an acronym or the name of a program that you’re not familiar with, write it down. If you can, ask in the moment what it is and at least get a brief description down, if you can’t in the moment, make a note to ask someone later. I’ve built up essestially a dictionary of internal and industry terms/acronyms that’s been invaluable to me.

    8. Sam*

      ask people to turn on their cameras during zoom meetings. So many don’t. As a new hire, the video helps you make a connection with your new coworkers.

      At my last job I felt like there were team members I still didn’t know after a year; they never turned they’re cameras on.

      In contrast to my new job, I’m two weeks in and do know everybody. My new company has a “cameras always on” policy. I think that’s great.

    9. Cheezmouser*

      Tip for managers: incorporate this into the new employee’s onboarding plan by having different people handle different parts of training.

      I recently had a new junior staff member start on our now-permanently-remote team. When scheduling Sally’s training during the first 4 weeks, I purposely assigned people from our team as well as counterparts from the other teams in our department to train her on different things. This not only diffused the burden of training new starters across the whole department instead of concentrating it just on our team, it also gave Sally a chance to meet other junior staff in similar roles whom she wouldn’t normally be working with directly because they’re on a different team. She had a chance to get to know her colleagues during the training sessions, and she had more people she felt comfortable going to for help. I also had more people who could give me feedback on how she was doing. Win-win for everyone.

  36. Need a New Phrase*

    I fully acknowledge all the problems around the phrase “drinking the Kool-Aid”.
    Is there a different phrase that gets the same point across? (to me) the idea being – Succumbing to group think, extreme of jumping on the bandwagon, etc.

    1. DCQ*

      Why not just say “succumbing to group think”? I think the biggest thing with moving to more equitable language is saying what you mean and not using euphemisms.

      1. CBB*

        Exactly. Among other problems, there’ s no single definition of what exactly “drink the Kool-Aid” means.

        To me “drink the Kool-Aid” connotes not just groupthink, but also uncritical acceptance of an authority’s (possibly disingenuous) words. But people who don’t know much about Jonestown might use the phrase to mean just going along with the crowd.

    2. ferrina*

      Do you need to reference group think, or is it enough to name the individual’s over-enthusiasm without attributing it to ignorance/naivete/peer pressure?

      “Wow, Robin is really into this new initiative.”

      “I think James is going to write a sonnet extolling the new report template.”

      “I think Morgan’s about to start a fan club for the klaxon SOPs.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am a big fan of X company. I was informed that “people think I have X company on speed dial”.

      2. Reba*

        Yes, as I hear it used most often, it’s not necessarily even that critical but it means the person is really hyped about the company/product/whatever. For this usage I like to say the person is a true believer or a huge fan (or stan, but I wouldn’t use that at work).

      3. Need a New Phrase*

        CBB hit the nail on the head, for me, with “not just groupthink, but also uncritical acceptance of an authority’s (possibly disingenuous) words.”. I’ve never heard it in terms of just “over-enthusiasm” for something, but really the giving up of autonomy and just blindly following the pack.

        My company was purchased several years ago by a company that operates very differently (not bad, just different) and the Kool-Aid phrase has been used a lot to describe people that just went all-in for the new methods/structure, but definitely meant in a critical way, not as praise.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      In some cases, “bought into the hype” works. Variations on “buying into [thing]” can also work.

    4. RagingADHD*

      How about “brainwashed?” Following blindly? Being a lemming?

      Jumping on the bandwagon for something is a bit different, because it implies you’re following the crowd just to be part of the crowd, or to be popular, without necessarily believing the rhetoric.

      The other phrase implies that you have been deceived into embracing something that will ultimately harm/destroy you.

  37. Hannah*

    I’ve got a bit of a weird situation I was hoping to get some advice on. I currently work with Company A and my primary client is Company B. I am interviewing for a position with Company B (non compete isn’t an issue). If I get hired at Company B, I will essentially be the supervising position for whomever gets hired in my previous role at Company A. I will also be in a position to send even more work over to Company A.

    My boss at Company A is very hands off – basically if Company B is happy with my work (and they are) then he’s happy with me. We are currently working remote and even pre-COVID, I could go months without seeing or even talking to him. So the question is – if I get the job, how do I tell him? An email is our typical communication but that feels weird. If I ask for Zoom (or maybe coffee near his house?) then he’ll want to know why. Given that I’m going to still be working closely with Company A and in fact, want to be in charge of the hiring process for my replacement, I want to get this right. Thanks for any advice!

    1. BlueBelle*

      I would phone him. Ping him on your chat feature and ask him if he has time for a quick phone call. Let him know you are resigning and after you speak you will send your resignation letter.

      1. Hannah*

        Do you think it would be disingenuous to frame the request for a call as “I have an opportunity I want to talk through with you?” Because I’m certainly leaving him in a better position than a normal employee just resigning.

        1. AJ*

          I wouldn’t, because if you’ve made a decision to move on, there’s nothing ‘opportunity’-wise in it for him.
          Definitely don’t ask for coffee near his house, but a zoom or phone call is a good idea. It’s also in your best interest to leave bridges as unburned as humanly possible, so framing it as you benefiting him doesn’t come across well. at all.

          1. Hannah*

            Well just to be clear – he would have a person with a lot of respect for his company moving into a funding role is something he would benefit from.

          2. Purple Cat*

            +1 on this isn’t an “opportunity” for him. I mean, if you were a terrible employee then yes, there would be addition by subtraction, but you’re not saying that’s the case. It’s potentially not as a bad as it could be if you’re still involved with the business, but I would definitely NOT phrase it that way as an opening to the conversation.

            If you never talk in person now I wouldn’t jump through elaborate hoops to make it an in-person conversation. Just set up a zoom meeting.

    2. Person of Interest*

      Be okay with the awkward conversation set-up. I had a similar leaving situation and when my boss asked why I wanted to meet for coffee, I just said, I’d rather discuss it in person (this was pre-COVID). After I assured him that everyone was safe, healthy etc. which he was concerned about, we both knew what this would be about but I stuck to wanting to say it in person.

  38. Malika*

    A year ago I started working at the most diverse place I have ever worked in. There are lots of different nationalities from all over the world and i love the international atmosphere it brings to the workplace.

    One problem I am running into is not knowing how to pronounce names. We have colleagues from all over the world so the chance that i don’ t know the pronounciation of the name is high and magling it can be cringe inducing. Do you guys know of any reliable website where I can find the phonetics or pronounciations of most world names? Any tips would be a great help. I also thought of keeping a list and looking it up individually on Google, but if there is a more central resource i would love to hear it.

    1. DCQ*

      I don’t know of a good resource but know that relying on a central resource may not fully solve the issue. For example, someone named “Hannah” could be pronounced Han-nah or Hahn-nah.

      It’s better to ask the person how to say their name than mangle it. Even if you have to do it a few times.

      1. Malika*

        I agree that asking is best and i have even started an Excel sheet for the phonetics and written name! I have a name that is mispronounced regularly and i always prefer it when people ask.

    2. Low Key*

      If you can’t ask your coworkers individually, a lot of names have YouTube videos for pronunciation. I looked up an Irish online friends name on YouTube just to be sure once. Usually if the pronunciation is off, people will sound off in the comments.

      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, if you have no idea at all, I’d start with YouTube so you can make a reasonable first attempt at pronouncing the name. Then ask the person if that’s correct.

    3. ferrina*

      Cultivate a reputation as someone who welcomes feedback, and ask for feedback frequently. Be welcoming and friendly. This won’t help with the initial pronunciation, but it will make it easier for someone to feel comfortable correcting you.

    4. AJ*

      Honestly, the most respectful thing you can do, in my experience, is ask. I have a coworker with a very unusual name, and the number of times people just plow forward with the wrong pronunciation and don’t ask is astronomical. Mine is spelled oddly, and considering I mostly stick to email communication, it’s not uncommon to hear people default to a shortened version (i.e. kay instead of kayley). I much prefer being asked how I pronounce it.
      a simple “Remind me how you say your name?” or “How do you pronounce your name?” does the trick just fine.

      1. The Original K.*

        Yep. “Can you say your name for me? I don’t want to mispronounce it” has worked fine for me.

      2. The Prettiest Curse*

        Yup, and you can also add “I want to make sure that I’m getting it correct.” And if you’re going to be introducing someone at a meeting or webinar, ask them about pronunciation ahead of time.

      3. Charlotte Lucas*

        I grew up with someone whose name wasn’t uncommon but who preferred to go by her nickname because them common US pronunciation was not the one she used.

        When she started working for a company that did a lot of business with Israel, she was delighted that all her contacts pronounced her name correctly right off the bat.

        If a name might have a different pronunciation than I’m used to, I always ask.

    5. Birch*

      Honestly I think you should just ask people how they pronounce their name, and/or what they would like to be called at work, and pronounce yours for them, too. Practice being breezy and friendly about it, don’t make it a big weird awkward thing but give people the opportunity. It’s way worse to look up a pronunciation and it be wrong, and for that person to just never correct you because you assumed you got it right and never gave them a good opportunity, than it is to just ask in the first place. Depending on your field, “how should I refer to you” also works in the case where somebody has several names or nicknames, or titles, that they go by professionally. I think you do have to ask directly for someone to confirm, e.g. “Karri, –is that correct? thanks!–Karri, you were going to introduce the teapot report….” “Stop me if I’ve got your name wrong” is often too great a threshold for people and it puts the burden on them to stop the meeting to correct you. Also don’t assume people from X countries or regions have more difficult or different pronunciations than someone like “Richard” whose name is pronounced “Rick-hard.” I live in a place where names like “Anna,” “Jonas,” and “Jenny” are very common but definitely not pronounced the way I would have assumed (e.g. Jenny is pronounced “Yen-noo,” except when it’s not), so it’s good to check with everyone.

      I think over time you will gain some knowledge in the area, especially if you increasingly have colleagues with the same or similar names.

    6. Dr. Doll*

      If your office is into technical solutions, there’s something called NameCoach which handles this issue very effectively. Pricey though.

    7. Beth*

      Ask, ask, ask. Ask in a spirit of “Your name is really cool and I really want to be able to get it right, or at least get it less wrong.” Then write it down in whatever manner will give you the best chance of reconstructing it more or less accurately.

      By the way, you can instantly get a lot closer to almost any non-English word if you remember the following:

      The letter “i” is pronounced “ee”, as in “see”.
      The letter “e” is usually pronounced like an English long “a”, as in “say”.

      Get those two vowels right, and you’ll have a head start for most of the globe.

    8. Nela*

      People from English-speaking countries always ask me how to pronounce my name at the start of the meeting, and I’m glad they do! You shouldn’t feel bad asking, it’s a perfectly normal thing to do in a multi-ethnic environment.

    9. Rara Avis*

      A colleague of mine set up a spreadsheet where we could all enter the pronunciation of our names. People in my organization who have to pronounce a long list of names publicly (graduation, etc.) ask the graduates to write their pronunciation down.

    10. star*

      I have seen people adding a phonetic version of their name to their email signature. It may be that your name is unfamiliar to others (as theirs are to you) and even if it isn’t, might be a useful normalisation of sharing that info in email for some.

  39. Manders*

    Like a lot of people who’ve been stuck at weird workplaces during the pandemic, I’ve been daydreaming a lot about starting my own business. I have a lot of pros (I do what I do very well, I have a big safety net to fall back on, I’m so underpaid that it wouldn’t take much at all to bring me up to the level of my current salary, I’m great at work but not so good at playing office politics and I think that’s held my career back) but also a lot of cons (several potential business partners have flaked out, the industry I want to be in is already saturated with people with big dreams and bad plans, I often don’t do well without structure in my day, I’d have to break out of my comfort zone and market myself instead of marketing a product). My current job can be done from home and I’ve already been working on my own personal projects on my lunch break and after work, but I have a suspicion my boss wants to return to office work not because it’s necessary but because she gets lonely at home. The office she wants to return to is hotdesking at a WeWork–an experience I find really miserable because of the loud music and bad ergonomics. It’s hard to tell how many of my business dreams are just “Anything but that godawful setup” anxiety.

    How do you know when it’s time to take the leap of faith and start a business? I think I’ll never be in a better position to make it happen, this has been my dream for a long time, and if I do this right it would be an amazing long-term setup. But if I fail, I’ll have burned through my safety net with nothing to show for it.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you work at it part time until you have enough base to know you have replaced your current income?

      1. Manders*

        I can if work from home continues, but if my boss makes me go back to WeWork, the commute + being stuck in a bad work environment during my lunch break would eat a big chunk of the time I’d have available for doing that work. I’m having a hard time getting a straight answer out of her about what the plan is (the company is very disorganized sometimes and I’ve already run into several issues with thinking something was a firm plan when it was more like wishful thinking from the higher-ups).

  40. Batty Twerp*

    Quick hello off the back of last week’s comment regarding my terribly bad, not good time with training provider exam screwups that led to a big mistake with a payroll file and me crying on camera.

    Good news! I’ve slept. I’ve slept quite well. I’ve had a good week. I had a good time reading the automatic transcript of a (completely separate) coaching session I gave with a colleague yesterday in which our coworker Julie was named Junior throughout and the software apparently thought that he said “milk” for no reason several times! Those are just the ones I can put online – I’m afraid I cried again, but that was from laughter. Fortunately, the session was also recorded so we have the actual audio/visuals to refer to as well.

    The exam has been confirmed as pushed back until March and the portfolio isn’t due until January. The hard copy study materials turned up on Tuesday! They are in a box in my spare room for now – my manager has told me not to look at them for a week.
    So, yeah. Time to get back on an even keel.
    Thanks again everyone.

  41. ProjectMermaid*

    I am currently a project manager in the energy space, but am neurodiverse and frequently overwhelmed and stressed out by the project management role. Do folks have recommendations for other types of roles that might be a better fit?

    I have sensory sensitivities and difficulty multitasking if there are too many inputs (can’t write when anyone is talking to me). As a woman of color, I can mask really well if need be, but I don’t want to have to as much in my next job!

    Things I love about the energy space and am skilled at are: translating technological concepts (and electrical engineering) into language clients and vendors understand, facilitating meetings, public speaking, developing policy resources and training materials, and creating spreadsheets. I love spreadsheets!

    1. BlueBelle*

      Have you considered a project analyst position, or some sort of analyst? it might allow you more data and fewer people. I love a good pivot table ;)

    3. TiffIf*

      Technical writing/documentation may be a good fit; possibly creating marketing materials? Perhaps a support position of some sort if it leans towards written/email support rather than phone support. Maybe Business analysis/business intelligence? Data analysis? Employee development?

      I didn’t know the value of a good meeting facilitator until I had a great one! I don’t know how or what type of role that might fit in for your work but that is a really good skill set!

      1. ProjectMermaid*

        Thank you! I have a lot of fun hearing different perspectives in meetings and like coming up with ways to make sure everyone can be heard.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Perhaps training and development, or user experience? I think those would fit with your skills, and what you like to do.

    5. LC*

      I am also neurodivergent and can get overwhelmed with too many inputs and like a lot of the same things you do (huge excel nerd over here) so I feel you on what you’re looking for.

      I’m a business analyst and overall think it’s a good fit for me and might be worth looking into for you. The title can mean a lot of different things at different companies, and how business-y vs. techy it is can vary a lot, but I do a lot of things you mention (including some of the things that you like that I don’t love, like facilitating meetings). There’s enough variety that I don’t get bored but usually not so much that it gets super overwhelming (this can vary a lot by company though).

      It’s hard to say exactly what I do in a short sentence, but I usually describe it as translating. Translating ideas and concepts from one type of style to another (think tech speak to VP speak), translating what someone is asking for into what they actually want (which is different remarkably often), translating data into something easy to read and that clearly shows the point (seriously one of my favorites is taking a janky spreadsheet that no one has every really put thought into but uses all the time and making it into something functional and intuitive and user friendly but still extremely simple – we don’t necessarily have the time or budget to make a brand new report in our fancy reporting system but I definitely have time to throw together a pivot table and some slicers and some formatting and write a little macro to help clean up the messy data they’re looking at).

      When I was searching earlier this year, I was also looking at policy analyst positions which sounded facinating and right up my alley but were basically non-existent in my area or in the other area I’d move to, at least without direct experience that I don’t have.

      1. ProjectMermaid*

        Thank you! I find it hard to tell from the outside what companies mean by Business Analyst because it sounded a little like sales at some organizations. It’s really helpful to hear that it’s a good fit for you when we have similar needs and interests. I also really like fixing systems that could be working more smoothly.

    6. Anon utility regulator*

      Anon for this because it would probably identify me! I work for my state Public Utilities Commission – you could be a great analyst for the utility regulator in your state. Our analysts spend lots of time writing technical concepts for laypeople and facilitating public meetings. Public speaking opportunities available for those who want them. Not sure about *creating* spreadsheets per se but definitely analyzing complicated spreadsheets of utility data. I can only speak for my state, of course, but our office is VERY quiet and people are generally assigned to dockets and then left to their own devices to do the work fairly independently. Could be a great fit!

      1. ProjectMermaid*

        Thank you! I am intrigued by my local utility regulator, but hadn’t thought of them in my job search. I do find their work really interesting when hearings intersect with my work.

  42. awesome3*

    It is SO WEIRD that my healthcare is reliant on my spouse’s job. Like what on Earth do they have to do with my healthcare? Especially in a year when I’m the one using the insurance the most, it’s just so awkward. It’s not a great system.

    1. Donors over $1k cumulative*

      It was a recruiting tactic back in the day and here it is almost 100 years later. I’ve never taken healthcare at work because my husband has such great plans and non-profit rarely has anything to offer in this realm.

    2. Jen, from the library*

      Amen to that, OP.

      Although I do have to ask…why the spouse’s job and not yours?

      The fact that healthcare is tied to ANYONE’S job is ridiculous.

      1. Ari*

        Assuming this isn’t a rhetorical question, the answer is a lot of reasons – Spouse A’s job has a better/cheaper plan, or Spouse B’s job doesn’t offer insurance, or Spouse B isn’t employed. It’s pretty common if you have kids for the whole family to be on one plan. I’ve been on and off my spouse’s plan for different reasons and it suuuucks when there’s a problem and you have to either deal with HR of a company you don’t work for, or play a game of telephone through your spouse who isn’t the one experiencing the issue.

        1. Jen, from the library*

          Oh yeah, I thought about all of those scenarios. I’ve been on spouse’s job’s insurance; he’s been on mine. As I handle all of the benefits/money stuff in our house, I’ve also been the one contacting HIS insurance liaison or HR dept to find out about things.

          IDK, maybe there was no point in my original question, maybe it just struck me odd how it was worded?

          1. A*

            I had the same reaction – I think because of the comment of ‘what do they have to do with my healthcare’. My immediate thought was… well, because you chose to be under that healthcare plan?

            That being said, I agree that the system is bogus although I don’t find it awkward.

            1. awesome3*

              I mean obviously I did choose to be under their healthcare plan, though I think the system is super messed up?

              “I’ve also been the one contacting HIS insurance liaison or HR dept to find out about things.” I mean isn’t this weird that we have to do this though? For any other thing Alison would say not to contact your spouse’s job, but our healthcare is dependent on stuff that goes down at their office.

              1. Jen, from the library*

                Agreed. I felt so weird emailing the HR person in the past, like some harpy wife who doesn’t trust her husband. It was more that it was my health stuff and knew what to ask vs. him.

                I think it’s ridiculous to have work involved in anything personal. Just so much ick. I do try to solve as much on my own before attempting to rope them in.

      2. JustaTech*

        From my healthcare policy class in grad school: because during WWII employers were not allowed (by law) to offer raises, they started offering “perks” instead, including health insurance, which was a mostly new concept at the time.

        Other reasons: fear of Communism in the 50’s.

        1. awesome3*

          Yeah someone commented that in a previous thread on here! I get *why* this is the system, it’s just… bad

    3. I'm that guy*

      You want weird? My ex-wife’s healthcare in reliant on my job. For the first two years I got my healthcare through her job and then I got a job where mine is cheaper than hers (but only because we have children) and so we switched to mine. Then are youngest child ages out then it will be cheaper for each of us to get health insurance because my job charges a surcharge if your spouse (in my case ex-spouse) has access to healthcare through their work.

      1. Jen, from the library*

        Wait how do you keep her on if you’re not married? Or are you, still, just on paper?

        1. RagingADHD*

          It’s not uncommon for benefits to be part of a separation or divorce agreement, which then becomes a legal court order that the insurance provider must honor.

          1. HoundMom*

            But that is not permitted by most employers and carriers. Ex-spouses are not eligible legally under federal law. Your divorce agreement cannot change the eligibility rules under the plan.

            If this is discovered you will be required to pay back claims or premiums.

            Most plans explain the eligibility rules annually and you can be fired for fraud even if unintended fraud.

            1. Jen, from the library*

              Yeah exactly. If you can’t claim someone on taxes, how can you carry them on insurance?

              Divorce is state law, which can’t supercede federal.

              I do find it interesting that if I wanted to add on a child to my work’s plan, I need to submit a copy of the birth certificate. Adding my spouse? No proof needed that we are actually married.

  43. I'm Fresh Cut Grass!*

    Doing open enrollment for next year, and I’m confused about how my company does something. They have, as a standard benefit, a life insurance policy on me that I neither need nor want (I have zero dependants, and nobody relying on my income). They don’t allow me to opt out. It’s not costing me anything so I’m not complaining or pushing back, but the principle irks me somewhat. Why force this on me when I neither need nor want it?

    1. Toodie*

      Because it’s cheap and they can point to it and say, “But look! We offer this benefit, too!” (I don’t have much use for life insurance, either.)

    2. Art3mis*

      I used to work at an insurance carrier that provided these policies. Basically when the employer buys the policy it states that every eligible employee must be enrolled. That’s how the get the group rate. Likely they offer an option to purchase more if you like, which is also at a lower rate because everyone is enrolled in the basic option.

      1. 100%thatlizzofan*

        I can tell you that in any company I have worked for, the company has not been a beneficiary for company paid life products. You can get key man policies, but in my field that is not a thing that happens.

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        Dude! This never even occurred to me. I’m going to have to figure out how to make a charity my beneficiary.

        1. JP in the heartland*

          Making a charity your beneficiary is very common. I think you can just name them on the form. Your HR should be able to help you. If not, contact the charity. They will be thrilled to help you. ( I’m a major gifts officer at a nonprofit. We love to help folks with planned giving by getting them in touch with a financial professional.)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I had a widowed family member with no living kids. I made her the beneficiary of my policy. It was 10k. But on a fixed income 10k can be very helpful.

      4. A Genuine Scientician*

        My brother was single and had no children. He listed me as his beneficiary on the life insurance plan given to him for free from his employer. I was his only sibling; our surviving parent is well-off.

        My brother was murdered in his late 30s.

        It has been, honestly, a life-changing amount of money to me, due to a weird stipulation in his particular insurance that death from something other than natural causes while he was still employed meant 3x the payout that it otherwise would have been. It allowed me to feel comfortable taking a gamble on a job/life situation that was less of a sure thing than another one I was offered, but which I felt would be a better fit for me long term.

        If you’re offered life insurance at no cost to you, list someone or something as your beneficiary. Relative, friend, charity you support, something. It can have a huge beneficial effect even if it’s not to your own kid.

    5. Beth*

      Back in the day, when the model was a single middle-class male supporting a family, and his life expectancy wasn’t great, and he often stayed with the same employer for his entire life, life insurance was a vital benefit. It was also used as a really crappy ad hoc savings account — I remember my father taking out a loan on his life insurance in the 1960’s to cover the costs of our having to move. It was the ONLY resource he had at that time.

      It was never a good savings vehicle, and unless you’re supporting dependents, it’s a pointless gesture on the part of the company. It’s even more ridiculous when you think about the odds of you still being at that same company when you die. C’mon.

      As the other commenters have said, it’s dirt cheap and makes the benefits package look fatter.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        My Dad retired from the place he worked after 20 years. He got to keep all his health and life insurance. After he died, several decades later my Mom was still on those insurance plans and used the health one until she died at nearly 100. It was Dad’s union that set up that arrangement, plus the company contributing a matching amount to Dad’s Provident Fund (this was in addition to his regular retirement account). Unions.

    6. Jen, from the library*

      Joke all you want, especially if you’re young, but your family might appreciate it if you died suddenly and they didn’t have the money for a funeral. That’s basically what most employer plans cover. I think mine is like $10K? That’ll pay for a cheap funeral where I am in the metro NYC area.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Came here to say this. Make someone you trust (a relative or close friend) the beneficiary, and instruct them that the money is to cover funeral expenses.

      3. Cheezmouser*

        +1

        Funeral costs can run $10K-$25K. Give at least a portion to whoever would be responsible for your funeral so they don’t have to pay out of pocket.

      4. Xena*

        Same. I have no dependents and a similar plan so my beneficiaries for now are my parents so that if I were to unexpectedly die it wouldn’t be a miserably expensive process on top of everything else.

    8. lost academic*

      How is it being forced on you? It doesn’t cost you anything. It barely costs your employer anything. The standard policy through work is pretty low for life insurance.

      You might also want to rethink not needing or wanting it. If you died tomorrow, people are going to incur costs related to you not being around anymore. Your stuff needs to be disposed of. Your rent/mortgage need to be handled. You may have debts even if it’s just your monthly credit card. Someone and probably multiple people will spend time and money dealing with it. Also chances are good you will die in a way that means your body has to be disposed of. TLDR – death ain’t free.

    9. Cat Tree*

      If you die, somebody will need to pay for funeral expenses no matter how cheap you go. There are also a variety of other expenses. Even if your estate is worth enough to cover everything that money often isn’t available right away. Your life insurance would help ease some of the burden on the executor of your estate, whether that’s a parent, other relative or friend. Consider assigning the beneficiary as whoever will be handling all that.

      BTW, if you did have a dependant, one times your annual salary is a lot less than what is recommended. This benefited isn’t really intended cover that anyway.

  44. Low Key*

    A former coworker, let’s call her Anne, is trying to get me to come work at her new job.

    Long and short of it is that we used to work in the same company, then I switched teams, she got fed up with the boss, left for a new job, started hating that around 18 months and came back to our company, albeit a different office and boss.

    The last time we spoke she was very negative about the job. Another coworker, Susan, who worked with us for about 6 months before switching teams once mentioned to me that she thought Anne was a Negative Nelly. But the thing I can’t shake is that she was right to be annoyed at our old boss, who frankly sucked at being a boss. He had no idea what we did, offered no support and often spoke derisively about our workload.

    Anne’s former job at a different company also sounded like she had an undermining boss. She worked in an department that often gets no appreciation, customer service.

    So now she wants me to join her new office, saying it would be better with me there with her. We did work together well back in the day.

    Should I make the switch or do you think she is a Negative Nelly? This is the third time she has started hating a job.

    2. TiffIf*

      Anne could be a Negative Nelly and the previous boss could have been a terrible manager–both of these things can be true at the same time.

      Also it could be that Anne got into bad habits in a poorly managed position and then never recalibrated when finding a new position and so has carried the toxicity with her.

    3. ferrina*

      I always get alarms bells when a commenter only says negative things then say “Should I take this opportunity?”

      You don’t mention anything that excites you about this new job. Is the work interesting? Do you genuinely like Anne (you only mention the complaints- was that the bulk of your relationship? Is there more than that?)

      I wouldn’t take Anne’s word- if it’s something that genuinely interests you, why not see if you can speak with others at the office? Presumably you’d need to to an interview anyways, right?

      1. Overeducated*

        This is a good point. What about the job itself? You shouldn’t make decisions solely based on Anne.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I’m with TiffIf. Plus, it’s odd that both managers suck. I don’t think you should discount Susan’s assessment. I suspect the common denominator here is Anne.

      As Princess Flying Hedgehog asked, is this something you want to do? If so, I’d proceed with extreme caution.

    5. Red*

      The last time we spoke she was very negative about the job.
      So now she wants me to join her new office, saying it would be better with me there with her. We did work together well back in the day.

      This doesn’t sound like a good move for you, OP. It sounds like she’s running into trouble for a third time and thinks you will come to her rescue.

    6. Purple Penguin*

      I wouldn’t, personally. Consider everyone else you worked with at job A – you all had the same bad boss, did Anne handle it worse than other people? Did working with Anne make your experience with that boss better or worse? It sounds like a situation I’d want to avoid.

      Knowing that her last 2 bosses really did suck, there’s no data yet on whether she starts hating all jobs after 12-18 months or if the new job is losing its lustre because this boss sucks too. But the important part is, she already doesn’t like this job, and maybe having you there would help her, but would it be good for you?? If the boss is great and you’d otherwise love that job, you’d be listening to Anne complain, which is bad. If the boss is not so great and it’s you and Anne together rescuing a team and “managing upward” that also sounds bad. Don’t do it. The only reason you should change jobs to work with someone you know is if they love their job so much they want to share their good fortune with you.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I have a rule of thumb that has helped me so much.

      Never hitch your wagon to someone else’s wagon. Don’t take a job just because someone else you know works there. What if they quit? What if they act like a jerk after everyone knows this is your friend? The worst thing I can think of is what if this person complains about the job every. single. damn. day while the two of you work together.

      Here she is saying things would be better if you worked with her. Noooooooooo. Just NO. It’s not your job to cheer people up, keep them on task, prevent them from quitting or any other similar scenario.

      Keep your own course, make your own choices, don’t fall in this pit.

    8. RagingADHD*

      In what way would it be better for YOU?

      Is there even a job there? Is it a job you want? Is it better than the job you have? Are they offering it to you?

      If you are actually looking, there is an open position, and the new employer has other clear advantages, it might be worth looking into. But there should be some reason to go there besides her. And if you wind up interviewing, it makes sense to do you due diligence separately from her, because she does not sound like a consistently reliable narrator. Don’t take her word for what it’s like.

  45. Not sure how to negotiate salary*

    How do I negotiate salary when the salary was already posted in the job post (e.g. $50k to $60k)? For example, if they said: “We are offering you $55k.”

    What are lines I can use? “Can I have $60k because I am fully qualified?”

    1. DCQ*

      No. The higher end of the salary range (which everyone thinks they’re at) is for folks who are over and above the job quals. Think of it as a bell curve. Most folks will end up in the middle.

      HR has formulas for figuring out what and how to make salary offers.

      This is exactly why companies don’t post salary ranges.

      1. TiffIf*

        And yet those formulas still result in inequities in pay even between people with equal experience. Don’t take on blind faith that the salary being offered is the fair or equal.

        Hiding salaries and salary ranges is never to the benefit of the worker.

      2. 867-5309*

        I support posting salary ranges but this is the exact problem… everyone thinks they are at the higher range. I’ve never communicated a range to someone (always in the phone screen, if it’s not in the job ad) who didn’t, when being offered the job, say they thought they would be getting the higher end of the range. Even new grads.

        I’m not suggesting “Not sure how to negotiate salary” does not negotiate or ask for the higher range but don’t frame it was, “I deserve it and you said it was an option.” Like a pay raise, tell them why – based on your understanding of the work, matching another offer, SOMETHING…

        1. 867-5309*

          I should say… You can also just negotiate. I usually say, “I was looking for something closer to $xxx,xxx” and see how they respond but you can also be prepared with WHY if they push back since you agreed to the initial range. If the push back, then it needs to be more than what I describe above.

        2. Can Can Cannot*

          This is exactly why my company doesn’t post salary ranges for jobs in our Lake Wobegon office.

        3. Yup*

          Exactly! In this case, being “fully qualified” means they would pay anywhere from 50K to 60K. It’s unlikely they would offer the job to someone who isn’t “fully qualified”, so start with the assumption that being fully qualified means they see you as a 50K candidate. What makes you worth more than 50K? That’s what you need to prove to them based on your past work achievements.

      3. Spearmint*

        “This is exactly why companies don’t post salary ranges.”

        I don’t see the problem here? The worst realistic outcome for the business is they have to tell a candidate “no” if they ask.

    2. wingmaster*

      I used Allison’s advise and simply say “Any chance you can go up to 60?” It’s from her Episode 9 podcast. I did this for my current job, which also had the listed salary range and was able to get more $. Good luck!

  46. Wondering Wanda*

    What are the rules for interacting with a former colleague who quit? I’ll give context to my question. I work on a team where I am 1 of 4 people. All 4 of us have the same title/duties/salary/place in the hierarchy. Our job is doing task A 75% of the time and task B 25% of the time. Both tasks are the same in difficultly and time.

    When the pandemic hit and everyone got sent home, someone had to continue going into the office because task B couldn’t be done remotely, it was impossible. My teammate “John” volunteered to be the one who didn’t work remote. What happened was that John took task B from the 3 of us who went remote (he took our 25% plus his own of course) and the 3 of us took his task A (each of us took 25% of his 75%). So from March 2020 until September 2021 John went in to the office full-time and the other 3 of us were remote full-time. John was the only employee or manager in the entire company that wasn’t remote during this time. He also was allowed to choose his own hours as long as task B was completed before 5:00pm. Task A is client related and can only be done during business hours but task B is not and just needs to be done before the end of the business day. So John was working 6:00 am to 2:00 pm instead of 9:00 am to 5:00 pm like everyone else.

    In September our company announced they were giving up our office space and going fully remote only. Due to changes in legislation, our industry, industry norms and public health practices task B would be able to be done remotely now. John would not have to be remote and our team would be back to each of us doing task A and B like before the pandemic. John quit the day the news of us going full-time remote came out effective the day of the switch. He said he doesn’t want a work from home job nor to work 9:00 am to 5:00 pm again. He got a job with one of our vendors (this is normal and not a conflict of interest) whose operation can’t be done from home at all where cam work his odd hours. Occasionally I have crossed paths with him from afar in my work. I’m not sure how to react. I know my manager was flummoxed at John’s refusal to be remote. John and I are the same age and we were hired at the same time, the summer before the pandemic hit.

    This is my first job after college and besides tutoring is my second job ever. I’m unsure what the etiquette is here when I cross paths with John.

    1. AJ*

      Sounds like there wasn’t any big conflict, so I wouldn’t stress too much about the interaction. Be cordial, friendly if it applies, and treat it as a nonissue.

      1. Wondering Wanda*

        Does him quitting less than an hour after the news came out with one week of notice and without a job lined up count as a conflict? Sorry if the answer seems obvious, John is the only person I ever worked with who quit, I know it really upset my manager but it didn’t really affect me so I’m not sure. Thank you.

        1. AJ*

          No, because you’re not his manager, and you’re not obligated by ethics or work norms to take on your manager’s struggles, or assume how they felt about it. (I’m assuming you’re going off what you saw of their reaction and response. If your manager vented to you about it, take it as a red flag.)
          Giving a week’s notice is short, but not atrocious. Walking out on the spot would be a huge problem. A week’s notice is less so.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Definitely not a conflict with you :) and realistically, not even a real conflict with your manager. “Really upset” is overkill. John had already made it plain that he didn’t want to work remotely, so I’m not sure why the idea that being required to work remotely would be a dealbreaker for him would flummox the manager.

        3. Maggie*

          It doesn’t sound like a conflict to me. This is literally a nonissue. Also John did nothing wrong even if your manager was upset. He resigned from his job, something people do all the time. Unless he was extremely rude and screamed at people or something and you left that out? If your manager wanted a guaranteed notice period they should have provided an employment contact, but they didnt, so just like they can fire him whenever, he can quit. Literally nothing of note happened here. Treat him as you would anyone else.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Say hi, be polite? The context of the job changed in a manner that didn’t work for him, so he moved on, exactly as one should do, he didn’t do anything wrong or even particularly unusual.

    3. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      John did what was right for him. Smile and wave if you see him. If you want to chat briefly, do so. Your manager’s beef with John is not yours.

    4. ferrina*

      I’d treat this just like any other colleague who decided to move on. React based on your relationship with John, not the reason why he left. It sounds like he learned more about what he wanted from a job (as many of us did during the pandemic) and acted accordingly. No big faux pas here.

    5. LizB*

      John did nothing wrong here, so treat him like any other person you used to work with who moved on to a new job. I wouldn’t have made the same choices he made, but it seems like he handled it pretty professionally: he was unwilling or unable to work a 9-5 remote schedule, so he gave as much notice as he could. It was under two weeks because your company gave him under two weeks of notice that his job was going to be changing. Just because your manager is flummoxed or annoyed by someone’s decision to move on doesn’t mean they actually made any kind of faux pas.

    6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      If he was your co-worker at the same level – why would there be some rule about it? If you got along well and enjoyed talking, stay in contact. If you didn’t like him, don’t. That’s pretty much it.

  47. AJ*

    How long would you generally expect the delay to be between talking to your boss about a COL raise, and hearing news about said raise?

    I’ve been working here for 3 years, and we were bought by another company in June of 2020. I haven’t received any pay change since my 90-day probation ended. I said something to my manager about a cost of living raise, and he said he’d talk to the grandbosses about it. This was in July. It’s only been 4-ish months, so I want to check my expectations before asking him for an update.

    1. ferrina*

      Ooh, yeah, I’d generally go a month before checking in. It’s very reasonable to ask for an update- “Hey, I wanted to check in about the COL adjustment we discussed a few weeks ago. I haven’t heard anything on that yet- do you know when I can expect to hear an update?”
      That’s the really soft version. It’s also really reasonable to say:
      “Hey, I wanted to follow up on that COL. As you know, it’s been 3 years since my last pay adjustment. Can we address this?”
      Heck, I’ve even added: “It’s really demoralizing to think that despite my increased skills and knowledge, my buying power now is less than when I started.”

      Also- 3 years is a long time to go without any kind of pay adjustment. Is this company worth it? Now is a great market for job seekers (just saying…)
      (I was already interviewing for other jobs when I said that last line; when I gave my notice a couple weeks later, my VP knew exactly why I was leaving)

      1. AJ*

        Boy howdy I’ve asked myself that question many times, and done my fair share of job searching.
        I’m actually in grad school for a TOTALLY unrelated field, and I’m sticking with my current job primarily because the workload isn’t too bad and because they’ll work around my internship hours. My immediate boss is also the best boss I’ve ever had.
        (they also have a poorly thought out “unlimited” pto policy, so i’m going to get paid for said internship hours, at least for a while.)

    2. 867-5309*

      I think COL increases are far less common today, outside of union jobs. If your company was just purchased by another, then they might not even offer those.

      Can you reposition the request as merit-based?

    3. BLT*

      I agree with others, I wouldn’t wait more than a month or so to follow up on that.
      Also just to add personal experience: my current employer gives all staff a COL raise at the beginning of the year. So far it’s been a consistent 3% raise (although one year I got ahead of them and negotiated higher for merit reasons). My last employer gave merit-based raises twice a year, if warranted. All that to say, 3 years without any kind of raise is WAY too long.

    4. Anonymous Hippo*

      In my experience? 6 months. Its a ridiculous answer though, and I would (and did) check in every 2 weeks.

  48. Art3mis*

    I need a “is this normal” check. A few months ago I was promoted from “teapot painter” to “teapot painter trainer.” I had been a teapot trainer for three years and most of my previous experience had been in similar roles at other companies, but all basic entry level jobs. These are types of roles that don’t pay for outside experience, you start at the bottom no matter how much experience you have. I was never able to get promoted before, which is why I eventually left those companies. So now here I am a few months into a non foot-in-the-door type job and I’m wondering if it’s normal for career type jobs expect you to either know everything to begin or figure it all out on your own. While I have three years of experience painting teapots, I have none in training or adult learning or any kind of learning. I haven’t been doing great at figuring it out on my own. I’m worried that all jobs would be like this and if I should just go back to doing support/entry jobs because I’m not smart enough to figure this stuff out on my own.

    1. Justin*

      Hey, whoa, don’t talk about your ability that way.

      Some jobs are like that, but the issue is that they’re not supporting their workers (you).

      You are going to have to ask, though.

    2. AJ*

      Has your manager expressed frustration with you? I would have a frank conversation with your manager/supervisor and explain that you’re excited about the new challenge but would appreciate some guidance if the company has specific guidelines or recommendations for training employees.
      “not smart enough” is not the issue, by the way, so give yourself some grace. Learning to train is always a bumpy process, and comes intuitively to very few.

      Did you ever help friends or classmates with schoolwork, or with studying for an exam? That’s adult learning.
      One exercise:
      Write down every single step of the teapot painting process. Assume that the person reading the instructions has never looked at a teapot or paint or held a paintbrush.
      This’ll give you a good understanding of the various points at which someone could start. You could have someone who has painted vases and easily learns how to transfer those skills, or a trainee who struggles to identify a teapot, and everything in between.
      Start by establishing what the trainee already knows, so that you don’t start out on different pages, and then build from there in incremental steps.

      1. Art3mis*

        Kind of? I have to re-do two recent trainings because people are just not getting it. She’s since given me a little guidance on how to facilitate a training. We do have documentation. It’s not step by step, but it’s not something that really can be spelled out that way.

    3. BlueBelle*

      You can learn to be a trainer. Being a subject matter expert doesn’t mean someone is a good teacher. Check out association of talent development and take a train the trainer course.

    4. ferrina*

      First- you are smart. As proven by you being here on the AAM open thread ;)

      Second- How much support are you getting from your company? That makes a big difference. I’ve been in companies that offer a formal training path, mentorship and clear goals and metrics….and companies that offer chaos on wheels. Know your company and what type of training they offer. If you’re not sure, ask. You an either ask your manager, HR, a senior colleague who is more familiar with the company, or all of the above.

      Third- It sounds like you know where your weak point is (adult learning). This is is proof that you are smart. Based on your learning needs, you can look for formal training programs, smaller trainings (like LinkedIn Learning) or even YouTube. Know your learning style and use what works for you (for me, YouTube is the answer to almost all my training needs. It’s scary).

      Fourth- Be confident. Even if you don’t know, you can be confident in your ability to learn and grow. Be confident in your ability to ask questions and incorporate feedback. Be confident in the knowledge that you are an amazing human being who has something unique to offer this position (even if you aren’t sure what it is yet, know that you have it.) Generally, promotions aren’t offered if the manager doesn’t think that the candidate can do the job.

      You’ve got this!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I have trained a lot of people and I picked up on a few things.

      1) Have more than one way to approach an explanation. Watch their faces are they following along? Do random checks, “Does this make sense to you?”, “Did I do that too fast, do you want to see it again?”, etc.

      2) So let’s say every time you teach the part about painting the spout you can almost count on people to ask you x, the same question each time. This is a clue that you need to weave an explanation about x into your spout training. People are amazing, they tend to gravitate toward similar concerns. It’s not unusual for a several people to ask the same question unbeknown to each other. (This is where the trainee trains the trainer!)

      3) The thing about the teapot job as an example is that it’s a very hands-on type job. Not all jobs are so hands-on. The trainee gets shown how to do something in a meeting room and then has to go back to their work area and do it. Try to avoid this as much as possible. Work in examples that they can try themselves as you guide them.
      Years ago I had to do computer labs for a course I was taking. The lab people were so awesome. If I had a question about how to do something, they would show me, then quickly undo it and say, “Okay you do it and I will watch.” Boy, did I learn!
      I have to chuckle because I used to watch people do something and it was in that moment I learned how good or bad a job I was doing training them. They can’t help but show us.

      4) Just like people gravitate toward the same questions they also gravitate toward the same misunderstandings/mistakes. Here there is an opportunity to add clarity while you are teaching them. “If you use the size 6 brush, the line for the stem of the flower will always be the correct size.” Teach them how to prevent their own mistakes.

      5) Here’s another biggie- as often as possible teach them how to double check their work so they know they are getting it right. Very, very few people want to do crappy work. It’s to the point where they think, “Please teach me in a manner that I don’t embarrass myself.” If you show them how to check for accuracy they usually WILL. They don’t want to look foolish.

      6) Tell a (brief!) story. Stories can help people relax. They can get to know you a bit. And the story sticks with them.
      “So when I started working here, I grabbed a number 15 brush to do the flower stems. I spaced on what size brush to use and I just grabbed whatever. Oh boy, did I have problems. I eventually fixed it, by doing a, b and c, but it stuck with me always use the number 6 brush to paint the stems on the flowers.” Don’t be afraid to relate your own experiences. There’s covert lessons there. You give people a glimpse of how to think through problems and at some point they too will be solving their own problems.

      Like I said, I have trained a lot of people. My hunch here is that if you can teach yourself to do this job then probably you can teach others. What ever you told yourself to pull yourself through becomes your basis for what you will show them.

      Training is tiring. It’s hard talking all day and watching another person all day. Break the trainings up as much as you can. Give them time out to digest what they have learned this morning or when ever you do training sessions. My job was physical. I stayed with my person long enough to make sure they understood how to operate the machine safely. Then I’d walk away, “Call me if you need help. I will come back in a little bit and see how it’s going for you.” This allowed people time to get their thoughts collected and actually connect to the task.

  49. Justin*

    Just a short vent that I am really looking for my next gig

    The office return hasn’t been so bad because of all the work I’ve done to protect myself, but really want to find a place where I can tap into my skills and experience on anti-racism and scholarship.

    Seems like something might happen eventually, but waiting around for good news is stressful, that is all. Need to find a job that really uses my strengths.

    1. 867-5309*

      I’ve been thinking about something similar – moving to an organization where I can leverage my professional strengths towards advocacy or justice work. I have about 2-3 years until I make the move.

    2. adminatlarge*

      Have you looked at college jobs? I work in academia and I’m looking for a new job and I see so many posts for diversity officers, directors of diversity, etc. The time to apply is now.

  50. ProjectMermaid*

    I am a project manager in energy and frequently am overwhelmed and stressed by the project manager role, but love the industry. Do folks have suggestions for other types of titles I should look for in my next role?

    I am neurodiverse and have a lot of trouble with the intensity of the multitasking and pace needed for project management. I also can’t write while someone is giving me instructions and can get overwhelmed having to switch between project documentation detail work and big picture work.

    The things I really enjoy are translating complex electrical jargon into something clients and vendors understand, facilitating meetings, working on policy, resources, or training materials, creating spreadsheets, and public speaking.

  51. Skyblue*

    Thoughts on staying focused at work?

    I need to check every email and slack message that comes in because I never know when I’m going to get an urgent message that must be dealt with right away. The messages can come from a number of different people, so email rules can’t help much. None of that is a problem if I’m doing routine things, but when I’m working on something very complex or that requires creativity (or if I’m just stressed out), it’s really disruptive. When I see a non-urgent message, I try to turn back to what I was doing, but I end up mentally composing a response or thinking about what I need to do in response.

    I just end up doing the stuff that really requires focus outside of normal work hours when I’m safe from email and slack, but I’d really rather not do that.

    1. DCQ*

      Can you make a request for urgent messages use the ! function? I have also put up an away message before that says I’m working on a deadline, but if its urgent to call me as I’m not checking messages.

      1. AJ*

        this is a really good idea. It’s totally reasonable to ask people to denote urgency in the subject line of an email or other clarification.

    2. ferrina*

      How right away is “right away”? Is it “in the next five minutes” or “in the next hour”? If it’s closer the latter, I would put blocks on my calendar, use my automatic email, and update my Slack status. I’ve put blocks of a couple hours on my calendar and said something like “I am unavailable from 1pm to 3pm today (Friday, Oct 29). I will respond to all emails between 3pm and 5pm”. You can even add “for more urgent needs, contact X”

      This also sounds like it’s a problem in your job description. Do you need to simultaneously be responsive to all messages and work on “head-down” type things? In my experience, that’s a sign of a dysfunctional company/unreasonable boss.

    3. Kathenus*

      You could look for a ‘distraction buddy’ to help you learn to focus better :)

      Sorry, just finished reading that post and couldn’t resist.

      1. Jen, from the library*

        LOLOLOLOL as soon as I saw ‘distraction buddy’ I was like, wait a sec, maybe this is turning into “a” thing.

        Then, oh, nope, just another reader of that other thread!

    4. cookie monster*

      I think the exclamation point idea is great. You should block out time on your google calendar and link your Slack and google calendar so it marks you as busy.
      I had a job where I really did have to deal with all of those and I think that if you’re doing something complex you can put that as your slack status etc and at least not answer them for 20-30 mins at a time. You can also reply to people saying “will get back to you at X”, and set up slack reminders to remind you to do that.

    5. snack queen*

      Is what you’re doing really that time sensitive or are people just trained to expect that level of attention?

      We use Teams and I’ll set it to Do Not Disturb if I’m working on something really intense. Everything still comes through but you don’t get pings or notifications. You could set a timer to check your emails every 30-45 mins if you’re worried something urgent will be come through when you’re on DnD.

    6. Anonymous Hippo*

      How urgent is urgent? Could you have set times you check email that would still catch the urgent ones in time? I personally start with email, then recheck before and after lunch, and then at the end of the day. Granted, most of the time I have anything immediate someone reaches out through another means than email so I have that buffer.

      Could you check email for like 5-10 minutes at the top of every hour?

  52. Neon Dreams*

    I interviewed for a different position in my company. The interviewer said she may decide today. I’m a nervous wreck over here waiting since our call volume is ridiculously slow.

    2. Need More Sunshine*

      Good luck!

      For me, it can help calm my nerves to frame it in my mind that I’m hearing valuable news either way – if I get the position, OMG YAY! If I don’t get the position, I can ask for more info that will help make me more competitive next time. I hope you hear the former!!

  53. Nicki Name*

    I loved Alison’s posts of people’s feline coworkers last year. For people who’ve been WFH during the pandemic, how have your pets adjusted over time? All of my cats were very curious and wanted to be involved when I first started WFH, but all except one of them have gotten used to it and just go about their days mostly ignoring me. The other cat, though, still needs to spend most of every workday sitting on my desk and micromanaging me.

    2. Manders*

      Mine have always needed a high level of attention, but since I’ve been home all day one has gotten *very* particular about how he wants me to make a lap for him and how much petting he deserves. The other wants to be in the same room as me, but is happy watching me work while he chills out in his cat bed.

      The only really annoying thing is that the clingy cat loves to play the “chair game,” where every time I get up it’s an opportunity for him to steal my computer chair. I even put another chair next to my desk and sometimes he’ll sit in that to supervise me, but whatever chair I’m using is obviously the best chair.

      1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

        And you have warmed the one your cat chooses! Judicious use of a hot water bottle on the other chair might make your cat choose that one instead. One of my cats alerts whenever she sees the hot water bottle being picked up, and is then keen to sit near it.

    3. RussianInTeaxs*

      I have three cats. One, old small girl Spirit, sleeps most of the time. Sometimes she comes to check on my partner, who also works from home, and yells at him for attention.
      The two fluffy orange boys, Fred & George, LOVE me being home and completely ignore my partner. They camp out in my office/spare bedroom for hours. George comes and yells and chirps for pets. Fred bumps my chair from the back for pets. Sometimes they have bro fights and run arounds in the room.
      All three know my schedule. The boys run upstairs with me in the morning. All three congregate around me at lunch, and at the end of the day. Of course I am the one who give them treats, so my schedule is SUPER important to them.

    4. Jen, from the library*

      I was only home for about 3 months (see my name, had to go back to the library at some point). My cat DEFINITELY misses me more now than she did pre-pandemic, but it also might be due to the fact that for the last 10 months or so, she’s been “only cat” at home. (Our other one crossed the bridge in January.)

      Spouse is home a lot more than me, so she’s not completely alone all day like she was a few years ago. Spouse does say there are days where cat will NOT leave him alone and is very clingy. We think it’s just age and her chilling out. She used to be super Miss Independent.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Mine mostly ignores me, after spending the early pandemic time making sure that all of my pens were safely knocked onto the floor.

      The fun part is when it’s her lunchtime (which she may define at any time between 10 and 4) and she goes to my son the Official Lunch Feeder to cry about it, and then, if ignored, comes into my space and repeats her complaint. I redirect her to the proper department.

      (unfortunately, I’m Lunch Coverage when my son is at school 2 days a week, and am Not Good at remembering that fact.)

    6. Zona the Great*

      My cat totally changed her daily habits to adjust to my being home so she can better enjoy it. She spends her entire nights outside because she’s a cat and because she gets bored just watching me sleep. But now instead of coming in and settling in for a long nap while I go to the office, she hangs out closer to me and stays awake longer in the day. She likes to play and explore and be chased first thing in the morning now. She also eats small snacks throughout the day instead of two large meals before and after work. Nothing I can do about that. She is very orally fixated. She sleeps later in the night now where before she’d be wide awake and wanting to play in the evenings. Perfect for me as I need to unwind after work by zoning out rather than chasing her around.

    7. Tris Prior*

      Our cats have worked out a good schedule between themselves over the past year plus. Typically, Boy Kitty takes the morning shift of sitting outside the office door and yowling, and then Girl Kitty takes the afternoon shift. They’re very flexible, though, now and then one will pull a double while the other sleeps, or they’ll swap shifts for reasons known only to them.

      Coverage is VERY important in the workplace, you know. :)

    9. A*

      It’s actually had a bit of a negative impact – my cat has been with me since I was in college and he is the fluffy little light of my life. When I was in office 4x/week (my pre-COVID schedule), when I was home I’ve be extremely affectionate and engaged so he would follow me everywhere and always be in my lap etc.

      Since working remotely for the better part of the last two years, I’ve had to set boundaries and shoo him away when he tries to jump in my lap because I find it difficult to work at the speed I need to when he does (I’m in a line of work that has been deeply impacted by the pandemic so my workload has exploded). Now he also avoids sitting in my lap when I’m on the couch after work etc. as he (understandably) seems to think it’s a no go in general.

      Luckily he still sleeps next to me as my little spoon :) and I’ve put at least one of his beloved shoe boxes near each area of the house I sit in, so now he just sits in whatever box is closest to me. It’s been a journey!

      1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

        If you wanted to, you could introduce a little blankie or a hand towel to the place he usually sleeps or rests while you are working, and then put that on your lap in the evenings and beckon him over.

    10. Xena*

      In January we got two kittens. I have pictures of me working my internship in January with two baby bundles on my lap, and a recent picture of me starting my full-time job ten months later with my lap overflowing with tweenager Maine Coon. They will probably be very sad when I start working hybrid.

  54. Alldogsarepuppies*

    The talk yesterday about the religious exemption to pop music got me thinking….is there a way that the non-religious amongst us have protections for things that go against our core beliefs if they don’t tie to a god, gods, diety, or other spirituality. Or are morals only protected for those with religon?

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      I think if it’s something that many people would think is unethical or immoral (in a business sense), it would be something you can push back against. Or if it’s something like this, I think it could be framed as “This doesn’t go against MY beliefs, but it goes against X* in general and I think we shouldn’t do is.”

      *X could be anything from “playing Christian rock doesn’t bother me, but it could be exclusionary to our employees of other religions” or “Giving a bottle of wine as a bonus doesn’t go against my beliefs, but it excludes our Muslim accountant on the basis of her religion.” Sure, you’re explicitly saying it doesn’t exclude you for any specific reason, but it gets the message across that it’s not good in general.

    2. Manders*

      This is going to sound weird, but one thing the Satanic Temple does is test these kinds of religious exemptions by giving people a legitimate ability to say that they’re doing something their religion mandates. I think their most well-known protests have been around religious monuments on public land, but I think they’ve also been involved in lawsuits about things like dress codes and giving invocations in the workplace.

      Unfortunately, I’m not aware of any protections specifically for moral beliefs that don’t come from religion–I think the law is specifically about freedom of religion, not about protecting someone’s moral beliefs, no matter how deeply those beliefs are held.

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        Yep, they specifically created the Baphomet statue to erect nearby a Christian statue that was posted in front of a government building, I believe, to make the point that neither should actually be there at all. Really clever!

    3. Ashley*

      Given so much of this music in the US is Christian, I think you should be able to say I am not a Christian as grounds and avoid the details of what you are. You could also frame it in the larger, not everyone is a Christian conversation. I admit this is easier in some workplaces (and parts of the country) then others.

    4. Purple Cat*

      I think it might be helpful to share what “core beliefs” you’re talking about. Are you thinking of times where you’re against doing a bad thing just because you’re a good person, not based on a specific religious belief.

    5. Black Horse Dancing*

      Sincerely held beliefs is something that can be used like religious beliefs. Not necessarily always counted the same. Feel free to join the Church of the FSM or Church of the IPU or The Satanic Temple. Many religions get really peeved when you use their tactics against them Example: Florida school allowed religious group to pass out religious coloring books at public school. Satanic Temple showed up to give out Satanic coloring books. Fallout meant no religious group was allowed to hand out coloring books at public school.

    6. pancakes*

      There’s interesting history around conscientious objectors in the US and in international law, in the context of military service. Whistleblower protections are another area where legal protections focus on actions rather than beliefs. I think the question is sort of backwards because many of the most significant legal protections we have in the US are constitutional rights that aren’t grounded in religion. You don’t have to be a Christian to get a Miranda warning or challenge a search of your property, for example.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Ah, but CO status was primarily a result of Peace Churches (Mennonite, Church of the Brethren and Quaker) and their efforts during WWI – it was a whole big Thing so by the time WWII rolled around the military had more or less decided what to do with draftees who were COs. It certainly does benefit non-Christians/atheists with their own sincerely held beliefs.

        Anyway, the question was focused on “this goes against my beliefs, but I am not religious” – I think some of these things are worded as “sincerely held beliefs,” as I noted before; if you can demonstrate that, it doesn’ need to be tied to a religion.

        1. pancakes*

          My understanding is that those churches were active in promoting the idea, but being a conscientious objector does not require membership in any particular church

          1. ThatGirl*

            I thought I made that clear, yes, anyone can be a CO. What I meant is that legal status as it relates to the draft/US military came about primarily due to efforts by those churches.

            1. pancakes*

              I think you are reading an implied qualification of “protections designed by nonbelievers” in OP’s question. I was not.

      1. pancakes*

        I am one, fwiw, but I don’t feel like I needed to put my lawyer hat on to answer! A more lawyerly answer would be, 1) I need facts to give you any sort of proper answer, and 2) which jurisdiction are we talking about?

    8. SlimeKnight*

      In general us “nones” aren’t granted legal protections for our beliefs. Like the posters above noted, the Satanic Temple has been pushing against this notion for a while now, but we are still early days, and the current Supreme Court seems determined to carve out special protections for certain religions.

  55. DCQ*

    I had a recruiter reach out about a position that is a logical next step up from my current position. The recruiter was from a recruiting firm working with an organization. I had an initial screener who had me fill out a bunch of stuff and then an interview with her supervisor who I guess is managing the search. She started the call by noting that the position requires 15 years of managerial experience not just 15 years of experience (I am 35, 15 years ago I was in college, but I’ve moved up super quickly and have been very successful). She then proceeded to spend an hour on the phone with me.

    Why? If you’re so concerned I don’t have enough experience, why waste that much of my time and theirs?

    1. ferrina*

      It could be a disconnect from the recruiter and her manager. Or the manager has unreasonable expectations and the recruiter was hoping to sway her with your strong experience. Or the manager has the experience number stuck in her head, but was intrigued by your experience. Any which way, that sounds annoying.

      That said, you never know how things like this will go. The manager may be impressed by your interview and never mention the experience again, may move you forward and continue to harp on experience like a broken record, or may just ghost you.

  56. Bubbles*

    Anybody got good resources for somebody new to sales? Furniture sales, specifically. I’ve already read No Thanks, I’m Just Looking, and Mastering the Art Of Selling…

    1. Be kind, rewind*

      Does your company have a mentor program OR can you tap into a more seasoned salesperson over drinks or lunch? I know sales can be competitive, but where my husband works (also furniture sales), he does a lot of mentoring of new hires.

      1. Bubbles*

        They do, sort of: I’m on a team, and everyone on my team is behind me and full of advice. They’re very good eggs!
        I’m just looking for resources to boost that.

    2. SnappinTerrapin*

      I spent a few years selling cars. I’m resistant to hard sell tactics, myself, so it helped me connect with customers who were afraid of being pressured. I don’t have any books to recommend, but I will share some thoughts.

      Respect the customers’ space, both literally and figuratively. Offer a genuine, warm welcome, but if they indicate they want space, honor that cheerfully. “I understand! I’m the same way, myself. I’ll step back, but don’t hesitate to ask me any questions you might have.” That first impression of respecting their needs and wants is key. People want to buy from people they like and who respect them. Obviously, if they are ready to seriously look, go right ahead and start questioning and actively listening to what they need or want.

      Know your inventory. I sold cars, not furniture, so I don’t know the comparisons between different styles and brands of sofas or recliners, but the more you can help them identify what meets their needs, the more they will see you as someone trying to help them, and therefore as someone whom they would like to help.

      Although a lot of customers enjoy haggling over prices, I’ve noticed a paradox that those who pay more – including those who are upsold – tend to be happier customers than the ones who beat you down on the price.

      I think it has to do with the customer who paid more being persuaded of the value of the merchandise that meets their needs, and the customer who got the cut-rate deal wondering whether he “left money on the table.”

      Most sales managers and trainers believe that sales people should be kept in the dark about the bottom line pricing. Ironically, once I learned how much the dealer had in the car, I felt more comfortable about using my judgment on standing firm versus encouraging negotiation, and it made a difference in my income.

      For example, if someone ridiculously low-balled on the lot, asking for the car at half-price, I’d laugh and tell them we do have a profit margin, but cars don’t have anywhere near the markup of jewelry or furniture, and steer the conversation toward determining whether they seriously wanted to buy something, or if they were just guessing or just passing the time. Investing a little time in a “looker” still makes some sense, because they might get serious later. Investing time in someone who really doesn’t know what the merchandise is worth, but who does have a real need, can pay off. The goal there is to help them figure out what realistically meets their needs and fits their budget.

      I kept in the front of my mind the idea that I needed to identify and meet the customer’s needs if I wanted to earn my money. A key phrase to express that to the customer (and keep it in the front of my mind) was “What do I need to do to earn your business.?”

      I also wrote short notes on the back of my business cards, expressing my appreciation for them coming to see me. They were pretty generic, but hand written notes stand out for the customers who aren’t closing today, and a lot of them came back and asked for the right salesman.

      I kept index cards in my pocket, and took notes on who they were, and what they were interested in. That gave me an opportunity to ask for the best way to communicate with them, if they weren’t buying today. I would email a thank you for coming in, and follow up again in a reasonable time (which is not a hard & fast thing, you have to learn by trial & error.) You want to strike a balance between ensuring they know you want their business and avoiding pestering them.

      One of the sales managers who trained me said that he didn’t approve of high pressure sales tactics, but that there is no such thing as no pressure. He told us to aim for low pressure. Always ensure they have an opportunity to buy, and that you would be honored to help them buy what they want.

      Practice those “soft close” questions so that you become comfortable with them. Listen to what they say about their timeline, their budget, and their objections. Sometimes the objection is firm, and you have to respect that, and sometimes, they are raising a legitimate issue that you can address to help them feel better about closing the deal sooner.

      Try to avoid the smarmy salesperson stereotypes. Show warmth and genuine interest in meeting their needs. You’ll hear no a lot more often than you hear yes, but that’s the nature of the business.

      Oh, yes, one more thing. Keep some thank you cards in your desk, so you can write a personal “Thank you” and mail it to the people who buy from you. It can result in repeat business as well as referrals.

      Best wishes!

      1. Bubbles*

        Thank you so much for all of this! Some of it I had heard before, but all from people I trust. Thank you!!

    3. Xena*

      You could look into some classic negotiation books. Getting to Yes is a good one to start with, and Never Split the Difference by Chris Vos is a good one to follow with.

      1. Bubbles*

        Ooh, thank you! My company doesn’t negotiate, but I suspect there will still be a lot of wisdom in those.

  57. BayCay*

    I’m the OP from yesterday’s update #5 (the one about how my boss wouldn’t respond to my work from home request.)

    I took Alison’s advice and asked my boss directly in-person after a staff meeting. She said she’s just been busy and planned to respond (ok, sure.) She asked if we could meet next week to discuss it further so she has time to review the company WFH policy. So, seems auspicious. I’m crossing my fingers.

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      Good luck! Even if she wasn’t planning to respond soon, asking her in person puts it back in the forefront of her mind. I hope you get some days from home!! And if she resists, since this is becoming more normal in your company in other departments, you should ask her for concrete reasons why – not in a confrontational way, but just seeking understanding of course! ;)

  58. Need More Sunshine*

    I think I need a pep talk, y’all!

    I know the owners and leadership of this company well and they have asked me to name a number and other compensation details that would have me come work for this. This would be an exciting job move for me and puts me further along the track I want to go down for my career. It also would be a stretch role because I would basically be building the department – they have been a small company for a long time but now, with new owners, they are expanding rapidly and it’s becoming clear to them that they really need this position.

    I’m a woman who has (almost) always taken lateral moves and never any time between positions. I want to ask for what I think is reasonable for this job based on other posted positions in my area and anecdotal knowledge of what similar positions are paid in my area, but I don’t want to out-price myself. I also want to ask for ~1 week more than standard PTO and for some weeks between ending my current job and beginning this one (if they’ll have me).

    I know y’all can’t tell me if my asks are reasonable without actual details, and I think they ARE reasonable, but I’m stressing over this nonetheless!

    2. ferrina*

      Ooh, it’s so normal to stress over this, especially if this is your first time negotiating! Especially as a woman, when we are so often told that it’s “ungrateful” to ask for anything more than offered.

      Congrats on negotiating!!

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        Thank you! I’m feeling really bolstered to ask for what I want because they recently set their internal minimum wage at $15, when our state is only at $11. It gives me hope that they’re really taking a look at the positions themselves and what the role deserves versus keeping wages as low as possible.

  59. Mary Anne Spier*

    How do I tell someone professionally that something is not my job?

    I am a high school librarian and our head of guidance is completely inept. Testing (SAT, PSAT, AP) is a guidance thing. She asked if I would help with the PSAT the other day and I said sure, assuming it would be about tech issues and other little stuff but on the testing day she basically was shut in her office all day and everyone was texting me to ask about errors (it was an online thing) and I was basically the captain of the Titanic.

    She has a staff in guidance who should have helped her. This is not my actual job. I know that next year will be more of the same. I need to say that she needs to do her own job, but I don’t want to phrase it that way to my principal.

    1. LongLostLibrarian*

      Well, I wouldn’t recommend sugarcoating it. I’m a librarian too and this is one of my hot buttons with non-librarian colleagues. Like, no, we do not do your work for you. Ever.

      I’d say just be as calm as possible and list out exactly what she did and how you were left with no knowledge on how to handle the situation. You’re not saying outright she’s not doing her own job, you are saying evidence that tells the principal immediately she is not doing her job.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yes, this. Rather than saying “this is not my job” it’s helpful to say “I believe this is X’s job”.

        Of course, if someone is offloading *their* job and there is no other staff they would legitimately rope in, it gets a little harder. I’ve used “Hmm, maybe you could clarify with [their boss’s name] how you should handle this / who could help you with this / how to get a handle on this”.

        If all else fails, talk about your own job. “I’m sorry, my to-do list for that day already has X, Y and Z. If you have a specific tech question / document access question [something vaguely in-scope for you] I can give you 15 min, but afterwards I need to go back to working with [library intern] / writing our new process documentation / cataloging… “

    2. Need More Sunshine*

      Yep, same as what LongLostLibrarian said above, and also if she asks for other things, clarify beforehand exactly what she needs you to do. Or outright say “Sure, I can help with some tech questions, but anything beyond that is not something within my scope.” or “If sounds like that’s more like something Jane would handle.”

      I know Allison has also answered similar questions before, probably with much better scripts than mine…. Let me see if I can find it!

    3. Rainy*

      I’d probably say something like this: “Last year when you asked for assistance, not only was the volume of questions unmanageable for me given my workload, 90% of the people reaching out were asking for information that I simply do not have, since I am a librarian rather than a testing professional. I’m afraid that I’m not the right person to help out with this task going forward.”

      In my institution we have a testing centre manager who handles all the institutional testing, with their own IT and testing assistant staff, because making sure all the computers talk to the national test correctly is more an art than a science, and the types of questions people tend to have are not questions that are answerable by people who don’t work with the tests all the time. “Can you direct traffic?” would be a reasonable request of someone who doesn’t work with these national tests (though of course you should still say no if they don’t have bandwidth), but “Can you manage this busy testing day for me?” would absolutely not.

    5. BayCay*

      The next time she asks for something that isn’t your job, I would simply say, “I’m unable to help with that, but good luck,” or, “I’m unable to help with that, but (insert staff who can help her) might be able to help you.”
      It’s a nice way to say, “That’s not my job,” without *actually* saying it.

      And I’m sorry you work with inept people. Welcome to the strugglebus.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I’m sorry, when you asked me for help last time, I assumed you meant tech issues. What I ended up doing was way outside my realm and I can’t do that again.” (You don’t have to tell her it’s her job. You can just say it’s not yours.)

    7. Orchid explosion by Fornier*

      I like the scripts, and I would employ them now. Don’t wait until she asks you to “help” again; proactively email to say “this didn’t work, you’ll need to make alternate plans in the future.”

    8. Flower necklace*

      If you don’t want to put it back on her to do her own job, maybe you could simply state that you’re not qualified to deal with it and suggest that the principal look into hiring someone specifically for that role. I’m a high school teacher and we have a full-time testing coordinator who is in charge of all testing that goes on at the school.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        I’d be reluctant to advise anyone to downplay their qualifications in any situation when there are other legitimate reasons to say no. This is too much like the outdated advice working women were given for so many decades.

        1. Flower necklace*

          The impression I got is that the errors were all technical issues that were outside the scope of her expertise, so saying “I’m not qualified to deal with it” would be accurate. As a high school teacher, I wouldn’t be afraid of saying that I’m not qualified to deal with technical issues that come up during a test. I can reset passwords and do basic troubleshooting, but that’s about it.

          If not, though, the OP can certainly give other reasons. “I’m too busy with my own work,” for example.

  60. CW*

    I heard this a quite a while back, but a former coworker at a minimum wage job that I worked at when I was in college said she didn’t get a raise at her job in 15 years. Yes -15 YEARS (NOT months, weeks, or days…YEARS). And not even a COL increase. It is not really my business anyway, but I am only asking because I just want to know how common this is, and how to avoid it. I don’t think it is right, because that means you are making much less thanks to inflation. So in general, I just want to avoid this happening to me, which, thankfully, hasn’t happened yet. And quite honestly, just hearing about it was really upsetting. To be clear, I wouldn’t stay at a job for that long without at least a COL increase.

    But how common is this to never get a raise in such a long time?

    1. Black Horse Dancing*

      For local and state governments, very common. (Unless you are law enforcement. They always get raises somehow.)

      1. Spearmint*

        Even then, 15 years is a lot. I live in a very conservative state, but the longest between CoL adjustments and across-the-board raises for state employees is a single-digit number of years.

      2. Joielle*

        Huh, not in my experience. In my 10 years working in state government I’ve gotten a COL increase every year, and merit or step raises on top of that most years. I am part of a bargaining unit though, which probably helps.

        1. Paris Geller*

          I’m in local government in Texas (so conservative state, no bargaining/union here) and have gotten at least a COLA or (admittedly small) merit raise every year and have worked for two different municipalities during that time, and I know many other peers who work for other cities who also get yearly raises cost of living adjustments.

          1. Black Horse Dancing*

            I work for a county government and we follow the state. The state did a raise in 2014 and nothing until 2019. All of these were raises of 4% or less. We have no COLAs or merit raises–it all depends on the state legislative and county budget.

            1. pancakes*

              In other words, you get a raise every 5 years or so rather than every 15 years or so? I’m not following the math on adding a decade and claiming that’s a very common scenario.

              1. Black Horse Dancing*

                I just meant it’s common to go years without a raise in many places. It wasn’t 15 years but realize those raises were always offset by yearly raises in insurance costs. 15 years is a crazy amount of time but not having yearly raises or COLAs is not uncommon.

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t believe there’s any one organization that keeps track. There are companies that do surveys, but of course those are self-reported and tend to be limited in scope. If you want to know more about wage stagnation, which is a similar and related issued, EPI dot org has put out a lot of in-depth reports on it.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I’d say not common at all. People usually automatically get some small pay raises or ask for raises and get a small one, or get promoted or quit.

      You don’t say what kind of minimum wage job. But it’s still odd that she did well enough to not get fired but never moved up from whatever entry level work she was doing. I’m picturing retail or food service, but I don’t know.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        It seems like this salary was pegged to minimum wage which doesn’t change often. But I wonder if your coworker ever asked for a raise and that’s what she needed to do to get one.

    4. ThatGirl*

      My husband has been at his job for 10 years. He works at a smallish university. Technically he got a raise once (it was something pitiful like 1%), then about 5 years ago everyone’s pay got cut due to a budget crisis. Last year everyone’s pay got reinstated to pre-cut levels, and they tried to paint it as a raise, but honestly, I don’t think that counts.

      1. ThatGirl*

        On the other hand, I’ve worked at three different companies in the past 10 years, and gotten regular (if not big) raises at all of them. Big companies and corporate jobs, though.

    5. Some Old Goat*

      I worked for a multinational corporation with billions in annual profits and we commonly got 1-1.5% raises if we were lucky. So for us, a COL increase would have been really exciting. I know that isn’t your question, I just wanted to point out that some companies don’t care how far you fall behind financially each year.

  61. oops*

    I apparently am getting overpaid next week.

    My employer is providing pandemic pay to some workers – there were some guidelines based on hours of contact. I briefly looked at the emails but saw the guidelines and didn’t do anything further. But… I’ve seen my paystub for next week, and I have largish item on there for pandemic pay (like 10% of my monthly gross pay). I’ve reached out to my boss and flagged the issue, which feels funny to do but I’d feel weirder if I *didn’t* say anything.

    Part of me says that it’s good payment for the mental health issues from dealing with the pandemic but really, it should be going to the folks that had to have contact with other people to do their job.

    1. ferrina*

      If you don’t think you should be getting the pay (that it’s an error in pay), you were definitely right to flag it for your company. Put that money aside (don’t touch it) until your company confirms. And keep following up the issue until you get an answer.

      If your company tells you that it’s not an error, that money is yours. The pandemic sucked, and yeah, take the money without guilt (survivors guilt is real). If you don’t want the money, there’s plenty of places you can donate it. But if you want to splurge on yourself, please do so without guilt! Enjoy!

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      I’ve gotten several surprise payments from a very part time job that I do. And both times I called my recruiter and verified that they weren’t accidents. It never hurts to ask.

      A shout out to my home county. The Board of Elections chose to pass on Covid money to us workers. We even got a small amount for the primary that was delayed and turned into mail only.

      PS Please vote next week, if your area is having an election.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      It was the right thing to do because you don’t want to be surprised by having to pay back money you spent if it is a mistake.

      Correct it now so you can know if you can spend it without fear of being asked to return it.

  62. Leela*

    has anyone found a company with an Autism hiring program they’re actually impressed by? Everything I see seems like they just watched Rain Man and go “ooh, we should get some of those”. Everything is very programmer/engineer focused, and I hesitate a lot to go to a company with an Autism hiring program that doesn’t have any Autistic managers or support staff. I also don’t believe a company that is only just now aware that we have different needs and work differently will actually be anything but a toxic environment for Autistic people that uses us as badges, and I don’t believe that non-Autistic diversity teams have any idea how to properly hire or support us. What’s your experience, if you have one?

    2. 2bourbontwilight*

      Maybe check out Auticon. There was an interview with a hiring manager posted on this site a few months ago.

  63. Su-Metal Stan*

    I will be moving to Houston TX for a new job. Please let me know if you have any tips for living there, including commuting! I’m from a big city already but it’s by no means as big as Houston.

    1. Zona the Great*

      I’m not from Houston but the city listed above it in the country’s largest cities list. I recommend finding how to reverse commute to and from work. Live where people work and work where people live. Your commute will be so much better.

    2. RussianInTeaxs*

      I am in Houston (area).
      1. Really try to get a place to live close to work, if you need to commute in to the office. The city is VAST, and traffic is no joke. If possible, drive around the neighborhoods before renting/buying. During rush hour if you can.
      2. Do yourself a favor and find FEMA flood maps before living somewhere. Not as crucial for renting (although you don’t want to get your car flooded), but absolutely crucial for buying. Also watch out for houses renovated in 2018 (just post-Harvey).
      3. Turn around – don’t drown – the city motto and a very important advice. We get tropical torrential downpours and many streets are designed to channel water. Usually you just need to wait it out a bit.
      4. HEB is the best grocery store.
      5. You will find any restaurant you possibly want in the city.
      6. Give up on having perfect hair, the humidity is no joke.
      7. You WILL need a car.
      8. Some of our suburbs are their own cities by now, so don’t be The Loop Snob (The Loop 610). There are of course “fun” neighborhoods like The Heights, Montrose, Midtown, Museum District, but they are expensive.
      9. We have a lot of toll roads, and they can really add up. If you can avoid commuting on them, it will be for the best, since the traffic on them is as bad as on the non-toll roads.
      10. Downtown has, as most big cities downtowns, big parking issues, so if your job is in Downtown, looking at the express Metro routes and park-and-rides might not be a bad idea. Most other areas of town are fine parking-wise, and most companies will have free large parking lots.

      1. RussianInTeaxs*

        I can suggest specific areas and suburbs if you give the general are of your new job, but if you don’t want to get this specific, you can search around Houston’s reddit, it’s a fairly common question for the new residents.

      2. Anonymath*

        I am in the Houston suburbs and agree with everything RussianInTeaxs wrote.
        Commuting here is no joke. Depending upon where you live it can take a very long time to get to/from work. The idea of living somewhere in the reverse traffic flow than your office is great too if you can’t get a residence near work. I checked the flood maps before I bought both of the houses I’ve lived in here. HEB is a great general market but we also have many good specialty markets if you’re looking for Mediterranean, Hispanic, etc. If you’ll be telecommuting and have more flexibility in your living area, houses in the outskirts (particularly to the SE) are much less expensive than the other quadrants, and absolutely less expensive than inside the loop.

        1. RussianInTeaxs*

          I have absolutely no impulse control in Phoenicia, the original, on Westheimer.
          Take all my money now!
          I live in a tiny incorporated city of 5000 sandwiched between Houston proper and two other large suburbs, on the SW side. I am only 25-30 minutes from the Downtown and most other areas where things happen, 20 minutes from Chinatown, City Center, etc. And Sugar Land, to the south, now has so many stores, restaurants, health facilities, venues, that I don’t need to go in town much.
          So yes, our various outskirts are perfectly livable, depending on your situation.

      3. Paris Geller*

        You can always find the Texans because the way we cheer for HEB is the strongest case of brand loyalty I’ve ever seen (and I’m not exempt–I love HEB!)

        1. RussianInTeaxs*

          I discovered their own tortilla chips brand, sold in the bakery isle, that are the best. And I like how they feature so many smaller local brands you would never find otherwise.

        2. Invisible Fish*

          Random HEB factoid: my family was in the area hit by hurricane Rita (Katrina’s sister that moved to Texas) and HEB beat the Red Cross to the area with food for people without power, etc.

  64. Syl*

    I *really* need to leave my current job but I’m not sure what to do. It’s gotten so toxic that I cry and have panic attacks most days. I have other health issues that have caused lots of absences.

    I’m on a performance improvement plan now. Yearly reviews are due in January and mine isn’t going to be good for this year at all. I need to take at least 4 weeks off to deal with my health issues. I really don’t want to lose my doctors and medical professionals though.

    Should I take FMLA? Should I quit? Would it make more sense to quit before performance review time? Should I wait until the performance improvement plan goes away? I don’t really have clear thoughts anymore because I’m so anxious and afraid at work. Thanks for your advice!

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      FMLA should be treated as a totally separate thing than your PIP or anything performance related. (I say should because we all know some employers will classify FMLA as “taking too much time off” in their minds, ugh!)

      But I would recommend taking some intermittent FMLA if you can – if you move jobs, you’ll no longer be eligible until you’ve worked there long enough, and if your mental health is taking such a hit, your performance at work (not to mention just your performance in life!) will not easily improve. The intermittent FMLA may (1) buy out more time before your employer takes negative action based on the PIP and (2) give you time to heal and open up space for job searching and getting your thoughts in order.

      Frankly, if you’ve already had so many absences due to the same health issue, your employer already should have recognized the need for FMLA, but often managers aren’t trained well enough in that area.

      Good luck! Your health is top priority, but I know it can be daunting to extricate it from your job that gives you health benefits!

    2. Jen, from the library*

      1. I’m so so so sorry this is happening to you. Something very similar happened to spouse at his last job. Bad management/training, lots of stress at the job and in the field, lots of health issues (made worse by stress), then PIP… He ended up quitting but I think they would have fired him. Just a bad sitch all around.

      2. If you aren’t documenting everything now, start. I’d even talk to a lawyer to get some guidelines or advice.

      3. Need More Sunshine has given you great advice. One thing to add: if you take FMLA (big chunks) you may be responsible for your health insurance premiums. Maybe you know this but didn’t want it to be a surprise/stressor if you decided to take off a month and then are getting a SURPRISE! bill from Teapot Factory.

      Good luck!!!

    3. Purple Cat*

      If you think you need 4 weeks off, absolutely take your FMLA time now since you won’t be eligible for it at a new job. Don’t worry about your review and any possible repercussions from that, take a deep breath and focus on your health. THAT is the most important issue.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Honestly, the best thing is to find another job and leave. You should be actively job hunting.
      I do not know the ins and outs of FMLA as I’ve never taken it, or how that impacts things like PIPs.

      But here is the other other thing. It is not the end of the world if you do get fired/let go! Sometimes people and jobs are not good fits. Could be due to toxic environments. Could be due to poor training, or a host of other things that made it a poor fit. In many states, if you are fired and it is not due to cause (like failure to show up, theft, insubordination, etc.) you may still be eligible for unemployment benefits. So don’t panic, even if the worst does happen. It does not mean you are a bad person or a bad employee. Do the best you can – keep an open dialogue with your manager that you’re doing the best you can. Hold your head high.

      1. temp anon*

        Yup! MissDisplaced is correct. I was fired for insubordination after nearly a decade of good work at an employer; new, terrible manager came on board and it was a bad fit with him. But I was granted unemployment :) and I was able to be rehired! I did sort of do a pivot to a new field, but even when interviewing for PT work in the interim, I kept it casual “oh I got laid off.” I mean, you look at my resume and see only a few jobs post-college, all with MANY years of experience, including promotions at nearly all of them? Yeah I don’t think I’m the problem here. It wasn’t worth me even breathing a hint of “fired.”

    5. Colette*

      If you need 4 weeks off for health issues, take the 4 weeks off under FMLA. You’re on a performance improvement plan; it’s unreasonable to try to improve while you have health issues that need to be dealt with, and if they fire you, you won’t be able to take FMLA.

      1. Jen, from the library*

        And if they fire you while out on FMLA… :cackles: goooooood luck to them trying to get out of THAT lawsuit.

    6. BayCay*

      I would suggest exploring FMLA since health concerns are involved. That said, it sounds like you should seriously explore making a solid plan for leaving and finding a new job. I’ve been in a similar position, where a toxic workplace decimated my mental health and I was scared I couldn’t swing it financially, so I gave 3 months notice before quitting. Yes, you read that right…3 months. It was a good decision financially because it gave me the time I needed to find a new role and save some money up. That said, those last months were brutal, considering the toxicity got worse when they knew I was leaving. I think you’ve got to consider the impact that staying might have on your mental health and quit when is best for you, not best for them.

  65. So It Goes*

    What’s the best way to estimate ability to take on new projects when workload fluctuates? I (somewhat) recently changed careers (and work environment) and am now in my first corporate job. It’s very much feast or famine for me–some days, getting everything done is a challenge, and other days, I am spending a lot of time improving my familiarity with the software tools and systems, etc. that I use on a daily basis or more rarely.

    I’d like to take on some additional responsibilities (and do have a couple of projects that are starting now and one more that should start in the new year), but I don’t know how to estimate my availability. Do I ask for more work now, knowing that my capacity is probably going to change in the coming months? Do I say that I currently currently have X hours of availability but have Y and Z coming up and am not sure how much time they will require? I obviously don’t want to be stuck with only a few hours of work a day, but I also don’t want to wind up overcommitting myself.

    1. Jen, from the library*

      What about asking for a back burner project that you can poke at when you have few free hours here and there? Nothing that’s got a critical turn around time, but something that’s important and can easily be started and stopped.

      For example, if you were my direct report, I might run a report of the library catalog and see which items are marked as missing. When you had some time, you could go look for them. It’s nothing that needs to be done NOW and if the books are located in the meantime, that’s less you have to find. However if you don’t touch it for a month after I run it, the library won’t self-destruct.

      1. So It Goes*

        That’s a good idea! I don’t know if there is one, but that would be perfect. I have been working on some of the back burner projects for my team, but some are on pause. (Thanks, COVID!)

  66. The Original K.*

    Any career changers out there? How did you do it and what did you switch to/from?

    I work in marketing and communications, and I’m done. (I’m a mid-career professional, if it matters – older end of the millennial generation.) I want to do something that means a bit more to me (something in which I tangibly do good, I think). Has anyone left that field? What did you do before and what do you do now? A friend who has worked in philanthropy suggested fundraising/development because of the skill overlap.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I just applied to everything, and I took a huge pay cut to get a job I was completely unqualified for (on paper, at least), which no one qualified would take.

      1. The Original K.*

        What industry did you leave? I assume you’re an educator now based on your name.

        Taking a “huge pay cut” isn’t really possible for me – small, maybe; huge, no.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I actually left teaching to work with databases. Yup. Took a pay cut from teaching, if you can believe that.

    2. BB2*

      I used my volunteer experience to change careers. Engineering to Parks and Recreation. I served on the Board of Directors for one volunteer group and that opened me up to a lot of different contacts in different industries. The other volunteer role more closely translated to Parks and Recreation and ‘qualified’ me for the open position.

      1. The Original K.*

        I am likely going to start volunteering in the new year – a family friend on the board of an org reached out to me. If not that org, then another – I’m keen to volunteer!

    3. All Het Up About It*

      There’s plenty of need for marketing and communications in the Non-profit/philanthropy world. So if it’s not the work you hate, but who you are doing if for then you might be career swerving instead of switching. But a lot of the same skills could also be applicable in other areas of fundraising.
      Development officers are usually the ones out there schmoozing and raising the funds by interacting with donors directly. Depending on the size of the org that could be their only role, or they might also be deeply involved in events / fundraising projects. Also look for Advancement services roles. The term is most often used in higher ed, but in some other non-profits as well. Roles in this area that might be good matches could be be donor relations, annual giving management, actual marketing or coms, or possibly prospect management.

  67. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    My job finally hired a replacement we’ve waiting for months. Two weeks later, he commented casually “By the way, don’t speak English, I told the interviewers and they hired me anyway”. My jaw hit the floor, because English is a non-negotiable skill for this position. I booked a short meeting with my boss to let him know, but now feel awful that our new coworker could probably be fired.

      1. 867-5309*

        Yes, that is super odd. Unless the interviews were in a different language, then clearly the new employee also has some command of the language, right?

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Yeah, I’m confused. This is a pretty huge flaw in your company’s hiring process.

          I’m bilingual and I once interviewed someone who refused to speak English during the interview. English was also listed as a requirement for that job. It was…really obvious they weren’t comfortable with English and we couldn’t move forward with them.

        2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          He was apparently fluent enough to communicate with Fake Old Converse Shoes? Or else they both speak another language and English is not the primary language of the group, but a necessary skill with customers. It might be that the boss has decided that other skills this person brings to the department outweigh English language and they intend to reimagine the role. It’s good to clarify with the boss.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      To clarify:
      * The interview was done in our language, although the hiring agency is told to publish in both languages
      * Apparently the interview was done without our boss.
      * We talk among ourselves in our language, but with other employees in other offices in English, because there are many offices scattered in other countries.
      * The employee in question is an adult with experience. Could have lied in their résumé? Probably. Could someone have screwed up? Probably.

      1. WellRed*

        If English is a requirement, whoever interviewed him and hired him without ensuring Good English skills dropped the ball big time. If he also lied about his skills, I wouldn’t waste time feeling badD.

  68. Anon for this*

    Any advice for dealing with sexist or racist comments at work? We have a couple of people (“Tom” and “Jerry”) on our team who are friendly and fine when I’m working with them, but who sometimes make sexist or racist comments in casual conversation. For example: one of our coworkers was leaving for paternity leave and talking about how he wasn’t sure how his newborn would change his lifestyle, and Tom told him that “his wife would make sure he pulled his weight”. Tom doesn’t know this coworkers wife and the impression I got was that he was making a comment about wives in general keeping their husbands in line. Lots of people were on this call (including our boss) and no one said anything to Tom, including me.

    The more worrisome incident was with another coworker, Jerry, who called me to ask about house hunting for an area with a good school district. When I mentioned that some of our coworkers with kids had recently moved and he could ask them for more information about school districts, he said he didn’t feel like the school districts those co-workers had moved to were highly rated enough and “those areas have more black people in them, so maybe that’s why the schools aren’t ranked highly”. I was kind of shocked that Jerry would say something like that, and unfortunately I didn’t have the presence of mind to say much in the moment – I just said I didn’t think what he was saying was right and I disconnected the call.
    Does anyone have any advice for responding to these kinds of statements in the moment / after the fact?

    1. Ashley*

      Honestly with Tom I probably wouldn’t have responded since it was a larger group call. In a smaller conversation setting I like something like, what is is this the 1950’s for the that style of comment.
      For the school district I would probably get into the details of school funding and property taxes impacting funding and typically performance of students as a result. Personally I refused to consider primarily white school districts so I usually use this when people comment on my school district.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think “Wow” is something to get used to saying when you don’t know what to say in the moment. But for the latter comment, you can follow up with “Yeah, racism against Black people is terrible. I wish we wouldn’t rank schools as worse based on the racial make-up of its population. Or I wish we could make all schools better for everyone.”

      If you think this is going to be a long-term pattern, and they aren’t just making ignorant statements that can lead to education, then I would document everything, just in case you ever have to make a case to HR (or outside of HR).

    3. Need More Sunshine*

      Honestly, I think you handled it well with Jerry – you could absolutely delve more into things that Ashley mentioned, but sometimes you don’t have the bandwidth, or you’re too shocked, or (this happens with me ALL THE TIME) it’s someone you don’t feel comfortable pushing back on too hard because they have power over your work. But you calmly disagreed with him and sometimes that is enough.

    4. Red*

      A dryly delivered “Wow. Thanks for the lesson in sexism/racism.” may be a nice, quick call out.

      Employing the classic “Why would you say that? No really, what did you mean?” and forcing them to explain themselves is excellent, but you have to read the room.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Jerry’s comment was awful and I think you handled as well as one could under the circumstances.

      Tom’s comment isn’t as clear. You were there and I wasn’t, but on paper I don’t see this as being the same category at all. Does Tom have kids? It sounds to me like a comment about relationship dynamics in general, because with a newborn in the house both partners do have to pull their weight, but what exactly that looks like is a negotiation between the two of them. So “how the baby will change his life” is a relational matter. In the case of Tom’s comment I wouldn’t say anything.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Tom’s comment implied it’s the wife’s role to dictate to the husband how much baby care he should do. Which is an outdated sexist assumption, the old ball-and-chain, hen-pecked husband trope. It reminded me of when I worked with a man who always said “It’s the Boss” whenever his wife called or texted him. It’s just not how you talk about an equal partnership. I probably wouldn’t have said anything either, though, and hoped for a loud silence after that clunker.

        The other comment, though, I thought OP’s response was spot on for an in-the-moment reaction.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I am not confused about OP’s interpretation. I understood what they were saying.

          I just personally would not jump to that interpretation based on the words here. Although depending on tone of voice and context (which we are not privy to), it might be more clear in person.

      2. Anon for this*

        Tom has kids, but it definitely felt like a “babies are women’s domain” thing. I can’t imagine him making a similar comment to a female coworker who was going on maternity leave, for example. But I agree that it was nowhere near as offensive as Jerry’s statement.

    6. Anon for this*

      Thanks for the advice everyone! I think I’ll continue observing Tom and Jerry and document things like this if they continue, especially with Jerry. I’m not good at dealing with these things in the moment, so I’m grateful for the scripts and reassurance that disagreeing politely can be enough.

  69. Concerned*

    Hello everyone! I currently am looking for a job. I graduated cum laude from a top 30 school with majors in Asian Studies and International Economics a few months ago, and I worked part-time as a department assistant for two and a half years through school. I don’t care if the job I eventually work at is in my field – does anyone have any suggestions for what type of jobs I can apply to? It seems that everything I look at I’ve already applied for or is STEM. I’ve only gotten rejection emails, if that, and I’m worried about the growing gap between my graduation date and when I’ll start working. Any advice anyone has is appreciated.

    1. 867-5309*

      What did you hope to do with your degree? Did you study an Asian language or was Asian studies more cultural and historical based?

      I think the challenge is that without applicable work experience through an internship, hiring managers won’t know where to slot you.

      What kind of jobs are you applying for? Based on working as a department assistant, are you applying for admin assistant jobs?

    2. 867-5309*

      Also, FWIW, I have no idea what a “top 30 school means” so the university is probably not giving you a leg up.

      I didn’t go to a highly regarded university (attended a public state school) but had four internships and my pick of jobs and this was right after 9/11. The work experience was far more valuable than my degree program and university from where I came.

      Would you consider a post-grad internship in your field?

    3. Zona the Great*

      Oh I’d look into advocacy groups, nonprofits serving Asian Americans or educating others on related topics, lobbying groups–you can go so far! Focus on your interests and passions when speaking to potential employers. You’ll find that matters more than your school and performance.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      It sounds like you would be an amazing fit for the state department or world bank. If you’re open to travelling, you could also take the foreign service exam. You could also look into admin positions at universities, in departments like international student services (almost every university has one), student life, undergrad and grad student services, etc. And if you don’t mind sacrificing work/life balance, consulting firms will often take anyone of any educational background and train them to fill specific spots – you can Google “consultanting firm interview questions” to get an idea of the application cycle. Good luck!

    5. RagingADHD*

      If you were studying economics, are you interested in finance and banking? Or something more toward policy, or toward working with developing economies, like NGOs? Any of those things have aspects relevant to different areas of Asia, but they are about as different as you can get.

      If you don’t care whether the job is related to your field at all, then that kind of opens up to any job at all.

      What skills do you have? What do you like doing at work?

    6. peasblossom*

      Also–if you graduated from a top tier school they tend to throw around a lot of money and resources designed to get you placed in jobs and find out what you want to do. I’d suggest: 1.) hitting up whatever alumni network is out there for informational interviews with people in either fields you’re interested in or who have a similar background to you, 2.) career services–they’re not just for while you’re in school and if you’re thinking this broadly you probably want to talk to someone trained to help you find resources and network. (I know career services are much maligned on AAM, but they are a free job finding resource with a wide network of people invested in getting students in jobs. It’s a resource you don’t want to underuse.)

      Similarly, it sounds like you’ve been applying to jobs already: what drew you to those jobs? Are there skills or structures that you were drawn to? Use any patterns you noticed to start expanding your application field. Ask for informational interviews with people placed in the types of jobs you have been interested in and ask them about what sort of work they could imagine someone with your background doing. Good luck!

  70. Kiwiapple*

    Does anyone have any hints, tips, vids etc for using MS Power Automate aka Flow? I’ve researched a lot but my flow is still failing and I can’t figure out why.

    I wantnset up MS form answers to go into an excel spreadsheet on our SharePoint site.

  71. Empress Matilda*

    Can I just say, arguing with your boss is not generally a good idea.

    Arguing with your boss half an hour before your performance review, is *never* a good idea.

    (Context: I am the boss in question. And the performance review did not go well…)

    1. Zona the Great*

      Arguing with your boss is not a good idea–hmmm. Can we hear more? I can’t agree with that as a blanket statement.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I think it depends on what constitutes “arguing.” I’ve definitely expressed differing opinions and tried to make a case for things my boss doesn’t want, but I haven’t just had a Monty Python–style argument clinic argument with a boss ever.

      3. Empress Matilda*

        *Disagreeing* with your boss is usually fine! And certainly I’ve made it clear to my team that they’re welcome to disagree with me – to a point. But there’s also a point where I need to make a decision, and once that decision is made, that’s when the disagreeing turns into arguing. This is already a pattern with this person, hence the negative performance review. Today’s example:

        Me: Can you please look into the TPS reports and see if you can figure out why the vendor’s numbers don’t match ours?
        Mr Disagreeable: I recommend we leave them until we review the next batch of TPS reports in the spring.
        Me: Normally I would say yes, but this time I need them done right away for Reasons.
        Mr D: We need to leave them until the spring.

        That’s what I mean by arguing. The initial recommendation was fine, but he kept pushing after I said no. Possibly I was overreacting because I was already prepping for his performance review, but he certainly didn’t do himself any favours!

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Was the reason to leave them valid though? Like a “I know you want X right now, but we’re in the middle of a massive system update.”

          I get arguing is never good. but some bosses really are not the subject matter expert. They just want whatever they want RIGHT FREAKIN NOW regardless of anything else that is going on that makes the task 4x more work than necessary than if they could just be a little more patient.

          Not saying that is the case here with your employee/situation, but I’ve had bosses like that.
          No care for others or their work. If you try to give (often very valid) reasons why something can’t happen… then you’re branded the difficult and arguing employee. Don’t be the boss that doesn’t listen to reason.

          But if the reason provided wasn’t strong… well then employee needs to be made to understand that. Sometimes you’ll also find both sets of reasoning are right, and you’ll have to decide what to prioritize.

          1. Empress Matilda*

            Oh, I’ve had those bosses too! I don’t want to get into too many more details, but you’ll have to trust me when I say I am not one of those bosses, and my reasons really did trump his. :)

        2. cookie monster*

          I think there is a lot of context missing from this.
          Why did he want to leave them for the spring? Is it feasible to do it right now, or just TPTB that said so?

          I’m not trying to disagree with you, just not necessarily seeing an argument here. Calling him “Mr Disagreeable” is not helping your case.

          1. Empress Matilda*

            I will admit that I’m more than usually annoyed with him this week, and “Mr Disagreeable” was unnecessary. I’ll put a general apology out to the universe for that.

            You’re right also that there’s a lot of context missing – that’s deliberate, for the sake of not giving away anything identifying. But yes, there is a good reason for the urgency; yes I explained it to him; yes it’s feasible to do it now; and yes this is a pattern of behaviour with him.

  72. not a manager*

    In the before times if anyone needed to talk to me or find me about something urgent I was always easy to locate (basically unless it was my lunch break or I was in the washroom I would be at my desk as expected). Now with working from home my coworkers call me if they need me in a pinch. I have noticed that if I don’t answer (because I’m in a Zoom meeting or on the other line) people often don’t leave me a voicemail, they just call back immediately so they have called 2 or 3 times in a row. I don’t get this. Per my job I’m required to respond to all voicemails left during business hours on the same day. I’m reliable and always respond. This multiple calling / no voicemails doesn’t happen often but when it does I’m (to borrow from Alison) baffled. Has this happened to anyone else?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This happened to me in the before times. I worked in a satellite office and would receive calls from the main office with no voicemail. Bonus fun: All calls from the main office show as the same number (their extension didn’t show up), so I couldn’t even call them back, because I had no idea who called me.

      Unfortunately, I do not have any insights on why people do this.

    2. Lady Ann*

      A couple of months ago I had someone call me about 5 times in 10 minutes while I was in a Zoom call. I texted them and said “I’m in a meeting, do you have an emergency?” and they replied “No, I’m fine.”

      My conclusion is that humans are just weird.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      Do you have the chat function enabled? I really dislike leaving voicemails, so I tend to leave people chat messages if they’re not available. You could also add a personalised message to your voicemail letting people know that you’ll get back to them by 5pm and if it’s urgent they can contact you at XYZ.

      1. not a manager*

        My workplace doesn’t use any type of chat function or messaging service. Our methods of communication are voice and phone. My voicemail does indicate that I will return their call before closing (or closing the next business day if we are outside of hours) and it’s been a standard industry norm for decades for people with my title. But no one used to bother calling since we were all in the same building. I barely used either of my phone lines before the pandemic.

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          Oh I see! I assumed you were talking about Teams, sorry. If it’s appropriate for your industry, you could also try asking people to email you for non-urgent communication. But otherwise, I don’t think this is nefarious – it’s just a byproduct of getting used to working from home rather than in the office.

    4. I.*

      Cellphones are often out of reach/not easily located so many people will call 2x in case that’s why you didn’t pick up. It’s not nefarious.

  73. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    I’ve got a policy at work of blocking certain types of website from being accessed via our network – along with the usual not safe for work/virus laden stuff there’s also hate speech forums, anti-vaxxer sites, pick-up-artists sites, Covid conspiracy stuff, white supremacy, anti Semitic etc.

    Just got an email from an end user who wants sites of the above topics unblocked because they ‘need them to see both sides of an issue at work’. They’ve included sites that have always been blocked here (like Facebook) as well as a number of sites that fit just about every category above.

    My first instinct was to reply back ‘No’ but figured that might be a bit too rude. Need some wording that sounds professional but gets across ‘no chance, use your home internet if you want to look that crud up because you’re not doing it here sunshine’

    (P.s. please no debate on ‘free speech’ or whatever. We have a very highly locked down network and that’s not gonna change)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is part of their job to do that “research”? Or is this “research” they want to do for their own personal curiosity?

      If their job is to research conspiracy theories, then you may have a case for temporarily unblocking that stuff. Otherwise, they can look that up on their own time, on their own network.

    2. Empress Matilda*

      Do you have a written policy you can point to? You could use some of the language from there in your email.

      If not, I think you can pretty much repeat what you’ve said here – your org has a policy of blocking certain types of sites etc, and if Joe Needs Both Sides has any questions he can direct them to (someone higher than you.)

      No need to get into a debate about it – the policy is what it is, and you don’t have to defend it to him. If he does have legitimate work-related reasons for needing these sites, he can explain them to a VP or whoever and ask for an exception.

      (Funny story, I once had a legit reason to review the T&C for Grindr at work. That was a fun thing to explain to the higher ups!)

      1. TiffIf*

        My company blocks anonymizers/Proxy websites. I once had a legit reason to need one (needed to test our website from an outside connection) but it wasn’t worth going through the process to get it unblocked because we needed to know right then–ended up connecting to a coworkers phone hotspot instead.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Before I can do that, I just need the explanation of how this is specifically related to your job, for my files.”

      I mean, I’ve had to visit sites that were forbidden, because I needed to see them for my job. And this was how it went. If they can’t say “Boss asked me to write a report showing the evidence on both sides of this issue,” or some other reasonable excuse, it’s easy enough to say “Sorry, our policy is to block those sites unless you have a work-related need for access.”

      1. TiffIf*

        This is what I was going to suggest.

        If there is a legitimate work-related reason, an exception can be made. Otherwise, nope!

      2. Anonymous Koala*

        This is what I would say. If this person doesn’t have a work-related reason for needing the sites, then they’re being awfully bold and I’d want a written record of that to give to HR. And if they do a have a genuine work related need they should be able to articulate that.

    4. Kathenus*

      Totally support holding your ground – I wouldn’t get into any justifications of why – just “no, those websites violate our organization’s policy”. Short and sweet.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Throw the policy under the bus. “Those sites are against the AUP and the AUP is not up for review at this time.”

    7. Colette*

      When I’ve had to access blocked sittes, I needed my director’s approval to get them unblocked. But if that’s not your policy, you could go with something like “We block social media sites as well as sites that spread mis-information and hate towards others. The sites you have requested fall into the above categories and will remained blocked as per our policy”.

    8. Red*

      The sites would already be approvelisted if the user’s role required access, right? Point them to the policy and advise them to submit a project summary outlining the need for exception.

    9. Reba*

      At my workplace there is a formalized process or form for requesting a waiver to any IT rules. The form asks for justifications and sign offs and makes it pretty clear that neither “I’m interested in it” nor “there is mild-to-moderate inconvenience in not having it” are sufficient.

    10. Former Hominid*

      “Such sites as (list of sites they want) are against (policy you have) to be viewed at work. If you have (valid reasons) please tell me so I can temporarily unblock them.”
      And then I’d CC this to HR. Because someone who want’s to look at hate sites at work for anything other than (valid reasons) would be someone I’d personally think should have an eye kept on. IF the reason is legit- “X in Y department wants me to take a look at ‘both sides’ of an issue for Z legit reason” then sure, but uh, since you describe your policy as long standing I doubt there’s a good reason. And I’d write out the sites they want to see in the email (that’s cc’d to whoever) so it’s pretty stark that the person in question want’s to go to stormfront or whatever.

    11. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      Hmm I do work in a team where we research some fairly light NSFW material and its just common sense to use personal laptop for some things – as it can be embarrassing as well as being a large org and even getting an extra pen takes weeks let alone trying to get exceptions on this sort of scale.

      But you have the powers of IT on your side! Use all the jargon as to why your network cannot support an exception – no one apart from another IT person could really critique what you say – this is my bad example feel free to laugh at it as its obv nonsense – our protocol UDP server cannot make exceptions to allow incoming packets from domains deemed hostile to the connectivity and long functioning of our network connectivity and related arrays. Usage of such sites remains barred on our network.

      Let them figure out to use at home if these really are work related requests, getting into a back and forth might undermine the unfathomable complexities of why the IT cant facilitate the request.

      Theres a brilliant Malicious Compliance like subreddit Tales from Tech support that could be useful too for wording.

    12. Ins mom*

      I think your phrases above are fine…. It’s not like you made the rules out of thin air. Maybe the ‘ locked down’ phrase and ‘no chance sunshine parts. Anyone this clueless doesn’t deserve to be treated with kid gloves

    13. RagingADHD*

      Is there a policy about getting exceptions to the policy? Like, would it be accurate to say that “any exceptions to the firewall must be for a stated business purpose approved in writing by the Executive Director of All the Things. Without direct communication of approval from the director, these sites must remain blocked.”

    14. SnappinTerrapin*

      “The policy of this lab does not permit access to the sites requested on our server. I do not have the authority to make any exceptions.”

      Since he wants to do “research,” let him do the legwork of annoying as many senior managers as he wants to in order to try to find someone who would consider his request reasonable.

      I’ve been on my good behavior most of the week. Maybe I can be excused for a little mild snark.

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        Seriously, don’t let this worry you. Let the policy speak for itself, and have one less thing to worry about.

  74. CA PM*

    I thought I had an interview scheduled earlier this week. After several back and forth emails I received this email from the HR Person, “due to the large number of candidates the interview would be conducted by email.”
    There were a lot of red flags (emails that were first name.last name.job@outlook.com and communication issues, ect), that I withdrew. Is an email interview a new thing?

    1. BayCay*

      I’ve never heard of doing an interview by email. Also, unless you just typed a typo, the use of “would” in their communication, plus the red flags you mentioned, make me suspect that maybe they’re using bots or you got into a back and forth with some sort of phishing group. Unless you’ve done your homework and verified that the employer was legit.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      This sounds like a giant red flag. At best, it sounds like a recruiting firm building their pool of applicants. At worst, a phishing scam.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I saw an interesting scam report on LinkedIn – the “interview” was conducted via IM rather than email, but the candidate was of course offered the position and sent a hefty check to cover the costs to set up their remote work space by purchasing items through the company’s preferred vendor. The check was of course later determined to be fraudulent and the vendor was also the scammer, so the candidate was out the money they spent on fake items at the fake site.

      Anyway, I’ve never heard of an email interview and I would guess it’s not legit.

  75. Kiwiapple*

    Second random question:

    I’m currently in a fixed term position, ending at Christmas. There is a small chance I can be kept on for January as the dept is short staffed and hiring takes a while due to a recruitment freeze (extra steps needed to hire). I don’t want to stay for January as I think it will be awful. I also not keen on the work I’m doing so literally counting down the days til my contract ends. I need a reference from here and I need to work in January.

    Would you just stay on or try to find a temp job for January? I am relocating in February anyway.

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      It sounds like you really don’t WANT to stay, so I would do this: plan to stay just in case, but look for a temp job for just January. Also you said it’s a “small chance” so even if you really enjoyed the work, you should be looking for a temp January job in case it falls through.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yep. Try to find something for January, but leave yourself the option.

        And I wouldn’t worry about your reference or anything – “since this was a fixed term job I have been job hunting and I found another job that starts in January” is completely understandable and no one will be upset with you.

  76. After 33 years ...*

    “Internet access is restricted to those sites necessary for the performance of your work. Should you wish to access other sites, please indicate how that access will benefit your work.”
    (Ok, perhaps only the first sentence.)

    1. After 33 years ...*

      sorry, that was a reply to Keymaster of Gozer above … this was the wording used at my place.

  77. Fintech*

    Welp, company is going to 100% in offices- previously was one of top companies for remote work. Not Covid related, CEO just hates people working remote. This means so many people will lose their jobs if they don’t relocate to a certain site near NYC- thousands of people. How do I support my teammates who will be out if a job come September? Obviously, allow them to vent, give consideration for their situation, be a reference. What else can I do for them? I’m looking at being a team of 1 until the ‘chosen site’ hires people and I train people- which will take years. I am at a smaller site, and safe (fir now) but oh my gosh, survivors guilt!

    1. Colette*

      I’d actually say you shouldn’t allow them to vent after the next couple of days – it’s really hard to listen to sustained venting, and it will affect your mood and opinion of the company.

      I’d say let them vent for a day or two, and then discourage it (change the subject back to work). Understand that they are job hunting and may need to reschedule meetings, etc. for interviews. If you hear of any jobs that might interest them, point them in the right direction. And then expect them to act like professional adults and do the job they’re still getting paid to do.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Help with networking/job-hunting as much as you can. I’m not normally a fan of performative LinkedIn posts, but it might not be a bad idea to make a post saying you know a bunch of fantastic talented people who will be looking for work in your field.

  78. Bear Mug*

    It’s a little too late for me now, but I was wondering if anyone here had an experience with negotiating step levels (or even GS levels) with US federal government job offers? Did you do it after they sent the official job offer or sometime before that?

    (I’m kinda kicking myself because I think I could’ve gotten a step or two higher but was too nervous/didn’t know when to actually do it)

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I have experience on the other side – employees negotiating for more steps. There are procedures for that (big surprise!) and you don’t do it until you have an offer in hand. There is a process for employees with superior qualifications, and there is a process based on prior salary. It’s not a simple negotiation like it might be with a private sector employer. Documentation is required. Where I work central HR makes the decision on it, not the hiring manager.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t personally, but had a coworker who did it. I don’t know the details but that’s how I learned it is possible. I believe she leveraged her years of experience performing the same role for a state agency in order to start a step or 2 higher.

      I don’t think you can negotiate GS levels. Don’t you apply for a particular GS level that is one the organization has an open slot for? Pretty sure that’s fairly firm.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      I (unsuccessfully) tried to do this and was very firmly told that unless I had documentation of a higher *salary* offer (not including bonus or stock) they weren’t going to budge on steps. GS levels was a total non-starter even though I was qualified for a higher level because the position was only spec’d up to a certain level. Once I was I the system it was easier to negotiate and my boss had more say on step/level raises.

  79. AnonTechie*

    How much should years of experience count in salary? I have a report who has ~20 years experience to my ~7. They have some great qualities and some weaknesses (like us all!) but I have more management responsibility and arguably more technical responsibility too. They earn 20k more than me – I think basically through lots of years of pay rises. How should companies handle this? I have received multiple pay rises recently so am not drastically underpaid at least.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m of the opinion that unless your years of experience translate into you doing a better job, you shouldn’t be earning more just for being more experienced.

      1. 867-5309*

        Agree. The work of the job – and your performance at that specific work – is what should determine salary. I won’t pay a marketing coordinator more just because they have 20 years experience because the work that needs done simply isn’t senior.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’ve also seen too many instances of someone with 20 years experience being less competent than someone with 7 years.

          1. After 33 years ...*

            I have as well, particularly if “experience” = “same way I’ve always done it”.

    2. Colette*

      A lot of this depends on the specifics. In some fields, for example, it’s not unusual for managers to make less than their reports. Would you be able to hire a replacement who does the job at a similar level for the salary you’re paying your report? Would you be able to get a job at the same level that pays more?

      I’d actually say your report’s pay is irrelevant. If you believe you deserve a raise, make the case for that independant of your report’s salary.

      2. AnonTechie*

        A bit of both, I could probably get slightly more elsewhere and they are arguably overpaid compared to others in our company. In theory I should continue to get raises as I am taking on more responsibility – but 20k is a lot and realistically I’m not going to get anything like that in one go. I think I would have to get another promotion (with even more responsibility/stress/etc) to get near that.

        I don’t think it’s totally irrelevant – what your company pays other people indicates what they’re able to pay :p

        1. Colette*

          But are they overpaid compared to others in the same industry but at other companies? Could they walk down the street and get a better paying job?

          1. TechWorker*

            Hard to judge as I don’t know what they’d be like in an interview, but I think if they were earning what they do (or more!) somewhere else there would likely be higher expectations on them.

      3. AnonTechie*

        And w.r.t whether reports might earn more than their manager – I’m definitely aware of that and there are others in the same role as this guy on other teams where I would not be surprised to earn 20k less. My report? Less so. They’re good, but they’re not *that* good, in terms of the value/expertise they’re bringing.

  80. Hanani*

    What are some examples of “managing up” and how does one do it? I don’t think I have this skill, but last year’s string of managers (4 in 18mos) makes me think I ought to learn how.

    1. ferrina*

      “managing up” can have many meanings, but I generally like using it as “learn how your manager operates, how you can make their job easier for them, and make it easy for them to make your job easier.”

      Some tips:
      -Take the time to learn how your manager likes to communicate, and use that medium with them. Do they like email? phone? bullet points?
      -Anticipate the information they need and make it easy for them to get. This can take some practice, but bosses really appreciate it. It’s also nice because it means they don’t need to hunt you down and have you drop everything.
      -Don’t expect them to remember everything. Bosses generally are overseeing more than just you. It’s normal for them to forget things, miss details, etc. Have necessary details on hand, make it easy on them to focus on the big things.
      -Know how busy they are and how to get time with them. Just a general sense of their schedule (you don’t need to have it memorized). If they tend to be crazy busy and you need them to review X by Friday, be very clear about the timeline and ask what you can do to help.
      -Remind them of trade-offs. Do they tend to run late? That’s fine, that’s their perogative. But tell them “If we don’t have the paperwork submitted by Friday, we won’t be able to launch the new software until Wednesday.” They get to choose whether they want to delay the launch, but make sure you’re clear about the consequences. (some bosses will need this, some won’t. Depends on the role & boss)

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Ooof, this is a hard question to answer, because it’s a lot of things. I hope others weigh in. Here’s my take:

      It starts by asking yourself, “What do I need from my manager to be successful in my role? And what does my manager need from me?”

      From there, you can determine what your manager already offers you (i.e., what’s covered) and what they don’t. A common form of managing up is sending a follow-up email to your manager after meeting with them, summarizing the decisions, priorities, and action items you two agreed on for your work. That’s useful in many cases, but especially if a manager is forgetful or changes their mind a lot.

      Another form of managing up is making sure that you get your manager’s attention on items that you need their review/approval. For example, say you need your manager to provide edits to a report before you can send it to the client. Your role on the report doesn’t end when you send it to your manager; instead, it stays on your “to do” list until you get it back. And, if you don’t hear back from your manager in a reasonable time (which depends on context), you follow-up with your manager (and keep following up) until the report is done or your manager decides it’s not a priority. In the latter case, you make sure that a plan is in place on what to do with that report instead, since it’s a deliverable to *someone*.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      It starts with communication. Really get to know your manager’s communication style (hard when there’s so much turnover!) and give them information in a way that works for them. For example, my boss likes email updates, so I send her regular emails with lists of what I’m working on, complete with attached copies of reports and important email chains. I do this even if she already has the information in another place because it makes it easier for her to review everything at once. My exboss liked everything on paper, so I would print out and organise all my data, analysis, etc. and put it in these huge binders before meeting with him so he could flip through and make notes with pens. Start by having a frank conversation about communication styles with your boss and ask them what they need from you and how they prefer to communicate. Then discuss some strategies for keeping them in the loop, and go from there.

      1. TechWorker*

        I had a colleague who complained that his mgr was constantly changing and he found it hard to build a relationship, prepare to ask for a promotion and then get a new person… so I think it’s also important to know your skip level manager (and possible the other mgrs that report into them). If you consider your only your direct mgr in your ‘managing up’ then you’re relying on them accurately reporting your contributions and achievements upwards/sideways. Which in theory should happen – but reality can be different!

    4. All Het Up About It*

      I also thought about this in relation to the question about the bad hands off manager vs. the good (actually bad) too involved manger. The first one might have been a better manager if the report and worked on managing up. If your boss doesn’t schedule 1:1, but you think they’d be helpful ask for them. If there’s something that’s causing an issue in your work that your boss can’t see because they are so hands off (or just focusing on something else) find a way to communicate that to them.

      Agree with others that the key is communication and tailoring it to the individual and situation. There is also sometimes a bit of “playing the game.” For example you know that your work is stellar and you more than hit all your metrics and goals, but your co-worker gets more attention because they write a weekly summary to the boss. Answer: write your own weekly summary, even if you feel like the metrics should be obvious.

    5. Chaordic One*

      In the past, I had a couple of managers that I didn’t particularly care for, but sort of figured out how to get along with and get them to do things that would help me do my job better and usually my co-workers. This seems a bit manipulative, but my boss was dismissive of my direct suggestions and I couldn’t approach him and say, “We need to do X in order to solve problem Y.” If I were to suggest something like that it would immediately be shot down.

      Instead, I would have to first tell him that Problem Y was terrible and we didn’t know what to do. We could possibly do A, B, C or maybe X. Not being completely stupid, after perusing the data that I provided (and massaged a bit) he would eventually figure out that the best course of action was to do X and that is what he’d tell us. And he’d think that the whole thing was his idea.

      One time I had a problem in that a certain person (Golden Girl) who would be able to do X for our team was unavailable, and a bit unresponsive to my boss. Somehow, I was able to create distractions by finding examples of previous work that that Golden Girl had done that were interesting and made my boss pause to look them over. This allowed time for Golden Girl to respond, to do the project with us and everyone lived happily ever after.

  81. Poppy*

    This is sort of a minor question, straddling etiquette and “read the room.”
    A month ago, I started a job at a smallish company, reporting to Executive A, who has 6-7 other direct reports.
    Because of A Series of Unfortunate IT Events, the company couldn’t create a work email address for me for at least a week; even after that, it kept going on the blink for another couple of weeks. In the interim, I had to use my personal email address. (Work email functions fine now.)
    The problem is that Exec A keeps using *only* my personal email address. It’s mostly when he’s cc’ing his whole group of direct reports, clearly just hitting “reply all” to an earlier message.
    I don’t mind having my personal email on the list (though I know that’s a privacy concern for some). The problem is that if he doesn’t also use my work address, I don’t get notices I need. (I can access my personal email from work, but I have to proactively open a web portal; I don’t always want that drain on my attention.)
    I politely reminded him one time that my work email is functioning now and please use that instead. But that apparently didn’t stick. I don’t want to be a nag, especially since I’m new — and because of the Unfortunate Events and various tiresome policies by our parent corporation, I need to ask him for permission or favors to do lots of other routine things.
    Exec A seems very pleasant and clearly wants to be helpful and get me up and running. However, he’s also very busy and overwhelmed, trying to expand a function in our company that used to be mostly just him and is now a fast-growing team. (And it seems like he is not the world’s most organized person…)
    So do I keep courteously reminding him to replace my home email address with my work one? Or keep a stiff upper lip and pick my battles? (For example, our company requires manager approval simply to add a personal printer when working from home — that’s how stupid, petty, and time-wasting our IT policies are. But my boss has no control over those.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Can you set up a filter on your personal email so anything from him gets forwarded to your work email? And then you reply from there?

    2. Rick T*

      It sounds like your boss’s email account memorized your home address. If you work with him you should be able to delete that saved address so his email will use your business address instead.

      1. Empress Matilda*

        This is almost certainly the problem, and it’s super easy to solve. Does he have an executive assistant? Your best bet is to go to them and explain the problem – they can probably go into his email and delete your personal address. It’ll take a few seconds, rather than waiting weeks or months for the exec to do it.

      2. Kathenus*

        This! Have Exec A open an email and start typing in your name, then when the autofill option with your home email shows up he should be able to click an X next to it (as soon as it shows up as a selection, not after it’s already been selected and is in the ‘to’ line) – this should delete it for future new emails. For the replies on older emails it’s harder, but one method until the threads die out by attrition is to do your own reply, cc’ing to your work address at all, reminding everyone to please use that going forward. So if anyone replies to that thread afterwards it’ll go to both your emails. Hopefully all those will finish out and people will transition to the new email.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Oh for goodness sake, you need to TELL him politely and professionally. “Actually I use the PoppyX@YourCompany email now. Please start using this as my primary email for all work communications lest I miss important notices or meetings. Thanks!”

      And then I’d proceed to have IT remove your personal email from the list and/or edit any other documents to reflect your work email only. Only HR should retain your personal email as a emergency backup.

  82. I'm just here for the cats*

    Is anyone participating in NANOWRIMO ? How are you planning to write while working?

    I work full time but there are times of the day where its slow that I could write a bit, I’m keeping a notebook with me and anything i write I will just type up later.

    For those that don’t know November is National Novel Writing Month and its an international thing where you write 50000 word novel in 30 days, which equals to 1666 word/day.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’ve always used downtime at work to do nano, either in a notebook or a google doc or whatever. Any spare moment!

      I’m also in grad school this year so I probably shouldn’t. But the siren song calls…

    2. RSL*

      Haven’t participated in NaNoWriMo but I’m also a writer. Of course, all writers are different, so whatever works for you. I find writing on paper and having to type up the text later to be time-consuming. I do prefer writing on paper sometimes when I want to compose more in my head, but when typing things up, it can take an hour that can be used to write more. With NaNoWriMo, the trick is just to get out word count. I’m more of a quality over quantity person, but you need to save editing for last. Just get out words, don’t spend time revising!

      1. I'm just here for the cats!*

        Yeah, I don’t feel comfortable writing on my work laptop or opening my google drive on the work laptop so that’s why I’m going to write in a notebook. Plus sometimes writing by hand is more helpful than typing. Uses a different part of your brain or something, and so helps me get unstuck.

        I mentioned to my boss and others at work that I’m participating in NANOWRIMO this year and everyone is supportive. There’s no problem with my direct boss, but I do work at a state university and I can see someone being grumpy about it.

    3. yeah*

      I’ve invested in a bluetooth keyboard so that I can type straight on my phone, since I hate transcribing. I’ve also found from many, many previous NaNoWriMos that I can consistently write about 500-600 words in 15 minutes, so I like to use work breaks to sprint! I also always try to way overshoot my goals on weekends or whenever I have a really slow day so that I have padding in case there’s a day where I can’t write 1,667 words.

      Last year I hit 50k in the first two weeks.

    4. Paris Geller*

      I’m hoping to write some on my lunch break. I get a one hour unpaid lunch and so often I spend 20-30 minutes eating and then 30 minutes scrolling on my phone. . .

    5. RagingADHD*

      I used to get up an hour early and write before work, then possibly another 45 minutes – an hour on my lunch break, and/or an hour or so before bed. It helped that that job had very set hours with rare overtime.

  83. W*

    Preparing for interviews, got a phone interview later and another full-on interview next week. I always struggle to come up with answers to give examples of failures. I don’t want to give examples where I really failed badly but don’t also want to give scenarios that aren’t that serious. Any advice or examples of the type of scenarios you say?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think the purpose of that question is a combination of, “Can you recognize that you make mistakes?” and “Can you learn from your mistakes?” So, as a hiring manager, I appreciate people being candid about a real mistake (versus a humble-brag), especially if they explain how they learned from it and have taken steps to prevent it from happening in the future.

      1. Jen, from the library*

        Agreed. Don’t just answer it as “one time I made a big mistake” and stop there.

        I want to hear MORE. I want to know how you handled it, did you learn anything, what would you do next time, etc. If it’s quasi-funny, that helps. My best personal example that I’ve used in interviews was the time I made something with “placeholder” text of half lolcats speak and half jibberish and it ended up being really popular among those who received it.

        I also don’t want to hear something SO egregious it’s making me rethink this interview. Aim for the middle, for those “we’re all human, sometime we screw up” stories.

  84. lcsa99*

    So my company designs and sells fabric wholesale, but we only sell to retailers (think the stores you go to for a yard here and there) and manufacturers. We have offices, and an off site warehouse. My problem is that especially this time of year we get lots of people coming that are just looking for a fabric store. Our website clearly says that we only sell wholesale, and I’ve changed our google listing so it clearly says wholesale but we still get a lot of people coming out of their way to come to us for no reason.

    My question is: would it be terrible to post a google review saying something about it just being an office? I am thinking along of lines of “They have just beautiful designs but when I tried to visit this location to buy some, I was surprised to find it was just an office! Now I have to find one of their retailers to get the fabric I wanted.”

    Would that be kosher? Do you think it could make a difference? Would you post something else?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If you were going to post, post as the official company, not as though you are a random person from the public. What you have reads as a touch shady to me, but others may disagree.

      That said, I’m not sure the review would help, since it’s not clear how people are finding the office. It seems like you’re assuming it’s through something where a Google review would be visible, but that may not be their source.

    2. Kathenus*

      Maybe in addition to specifying that you only sell wholesale, also say something like “Not open to the public” on websites, advertising, office doors, etc.

    4. Eden*

      No, that “review” is clearly an ad. “They have beautiful designs”, “have to fine one of their retailers”. Come on.

      1. WellRed*

        And for that matter, include a list of linked locations where they can buy. They’ll be happy, the retailers will be happy, you’ll be happy.

  85. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Project management question:
    I’m a project manager (new to this org, not to project management, though also not a certified “Project Manager”). Anyways, I’ve gotten some surprise that I don’t use a Gantt chart/system to manage projects.

    My rationale is that I am managing several projects/workstreams that are entirely independent from one another and each is pretty linear, so a Gantt system does not seem like it would be helpful. Admittedly, I prefer Kanban boards in general (I am tracking all of the projects on a unified Kanban board), so I’m wondering if this just my bias coming in.

    Thoughts on whether I should be building Gantt chart(s) anyways?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Gantt charts make no sense to my brain, I can’t process them. I also prefer Kanban boards.

      Do what works for you.

    2. Empress Matilda*

      I never use Gantt charts if I can possibly avoid them! Most of my projects are non-linear, with few dependencies from one stage to another. The sequence of activities doesn’t usually matter, as long as we get to the end result more or less on time. So I find the Gantt chart forces me to make connections and decisions that I don’t necessarily need for my project.

      So I build the project plan in the way that works best for me. If I’m sharing it with other people I’ll explain why I didn’t use a Gantt, and depending on who I’m talking to I might offer to make one anyway. They usually say it’s not necessary.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I love a good Gantt chart and use them for very specific types of matters in my practice — but they’re not good for every type of matter. If they don’t work for you, they don’t work for you. Don’t force yourself into using a tool that you don’t think would be helpful.

    4. ferrina*

      I love Gantts, but I find them most helpful when dependencies are involved and when deadlines are hard coded (I work in a field where often clients must have this by X date so do what you need to make that happen).
      When deadlines are softer (or non-existant) and dependencies aren’t as big of an issue, Gantt tends to make less sense. Most programmers I work with deeply prefer Kanban.

      I might prep a stock answer why Kanban is the right solution for your work/team, but if no one is complaining (just surprised), give it a bit of time for the idea to settle with folks.

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Gantt is pretty old-school. It still has its place in some businesses – does it make sense where you work, or is it just a case that everyone else has been using Gantts since the 1970s and haven’t learned about the newer systems?

    6. Anon for This*

      A number of years ago I tried to find Gantt chart software for a colleague and was told no one uses them anymore. Pert charts seemed to be the favored system. Maybe Gantt charts are coming back? Kanban boards seem effective for smaller projects, challenging for larger projects.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I am a certified project manager. I’ve learned Gantt charts, but don’t use them for work. Most of my organization doesn’t.

      But it does sound like your predecessor and peers may have if your org expects them.

      If your process works, they’ll get used to it.

  86. Whereismyrobot*

    I have been at my job for almost a year and would really like feedback from my boss. The problem is, she is extremely non-confrontational and doesn’t seem to give much feedback. (We don’t have annual reviews, I just got a raise at the six-month mark).
    We do talk often, but I miss having a big review and goals every year. I would also like to know what I can improve upon in the future. I think emailing her about this would give her a chance to really think it over, but I am not sure what to say so that I would get quality, actionable feedback. Any ideas?

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      If she’s feedback-shy, I think the framing is really important here. Tell her you want to meet and that you find it really helpful to have a structured conversation around goals that you can reference throughout the year for your performance. She may get nervous at “I want constructive feedback from you” but she may not if you say “I want to proactively make some goals with you” and then in the bigger conversation, focus on “What would success if X look like” versus “Can you tell me where I fall short in Y.”

    2. Kathenus*

      Could you ask for three examples of areas where your performance is especially strong, and three examples where you could continue to improve? Sometimes being asked to offer a specific number of responses to set questions can help get the feedback you are looking for.

    3. BlueBelle*

      You can take ownership of this by attending a meeting with specific questions. I completed X and feel like these things went well, I would appreciate any feedback you have or if there is anything I can do to improve?
      I have been thinking about short term and long term goals in this position and the future. I feel my strengths are… and I was thinking I could develop more in Y area. To this I was thinking of doing Z, what kind of guidance do you have?
      Often managers do not have these conversations because they don’t know, they feel like they can’t offer any development or advancement, or they think it isn’t their responsibility. I find that if the employee takes the reigns on it the reluctant manager is relieved and open.
      Good luck!

  87. Filosofickle*

    I am in a brand new job. Company pandemic policy is you don’t have to travel or visit clients onsite, but some people are. I’m being staffed on a project with a client that wants us in person. Not that it matters, but we’re talking about large group, highly interactive, all-day sessions. In person is a better experience but that’s offset by the impact on us facilitators not being able to read people through masks. Masking policies unknown but not betting on that.

    My boss says it’s fine for me not to go and has not decided her stance. OTOH, my grandboss is eagerly traveling and entertaining clients. Grandboss says she supports team members making choices for themselves, but in my experience people who have no reservations about in-person things right now tend to not fully sympathize with those who do. So on paper I am supported but I’m too new to trust that fully. And we’re all new so I don’t know what capital my bosses have. I’m not willing to go and will hold my ground, citing policy, but I feel uncomfortable about it. Darn people-pleasing instincts kicking up! I have no children or immunocompromised family to give as a reason. I simply don’t want to for myself.

    Advice on holding my ground while protecting my reputation as a positive, team-oriented, client-focused new employee? Or, maybe more importantly, just trusting that my bosses have my back and not feeling so queasy about it?!

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh, this is tough. And it’s definitely not risk-free.
      I’d be tempted to sit this out and test your boss’ words. Maybe it really won’t impact your standing, but maybe it may backfire in you not getting the good assignments.
      I’ve been pointing to evolving data and that my stance will change over time. Currently vaccination rates are still low, and with winter kicking in, it’s reasonable to be cautious and wait to see what the spreading pattern looks like with current vaccination rates. CDC guidance is still evolving, and a sizable portion of the populations (i.e., kids 5-11) are on the cusp of being able to get the vaccine.

    2. Colette*

      Honestly, if my manager told me I had to attend an in-person session with a lot of people right now – or held it against me if I didn’t want to go – that would tell me I’d taken the wrong job.

      I’d trust the policy, but be prepared to find something else if they hold it against you after the fact.

  88. Job Hunting*

    I’m applying for a job with a company that I work with semi-frequently in my current job. There’s one manager in particular at that company that I usually work with. I interact with her regularly enough that it would be strange if I didn’t mention it; on the other hand, she’s both very high up in the company and unlikely to be directly involved with the hiring process for this particular position. I’m at a loss as to how to phrase my email so it doesn’t sound like I’m asking for her to put in a word for me. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Colette*

      I just wanted to let you know that I’m applying for the Teapot Specialist job. I’ve enjoyed working with your company, and thought this role might be a good fit for my next career move. I don’t know if I’ll be selected, but I wanted you to hear it from me.

  89. Black Horse Dancing*

    Sincerely held beliefs is something that can be used like religious beliefs. Not necessarily always counted the same. Feel free to join the Church of the FSM or Church of the IPU or The Satanic Temple. Many religions get really peeved when you use their tactics against them Example: Florida school allowed religious group to pass out religious coloring books at public school. Satanic Temple showed up to give out Satanic coloring books. Fallout meant no religious group was allowed to hand out coloring books at public school.

  90. Confused Anon*

    My coworker “Tim” was assigned to list Teapots for sale on the company website. He either wasn’t doing it/wasn’t doing it fast enough, so my boss asked me to help out. While I don’t mind helping out, my boss never said anything to Tim. I don’t know if she’s threatened by him or what- If we need help with something, she’s always like, “I feel bad asking him to do X” Um, isn’t that his job? She’s the boss!

    It just frustrates me because she has no problem asking if I completed something and can get snippy, yet she isn’t that way with him.

    Besides a new boss, any words of advice or similar experiences?

    1. CBB*

      Not sure about your specific situation, but it’s not unusual for same-level coworkers to have to coordinate with each other without involving their boss.

      Yeah, your boss is a bad boss, but since you can’t change that, can you call up Tim and be like, “Sounds like we’re both assigned to the task. Let’s make a plan for getting it done and keeping each other informed”?

    2. Jen, from the library*

      There may be things going on with Tim that your boss is not alluding to, either because she doesn’t know or legally cannot tell you. Maybe Tim has a disability and boss feels like when she asks him to do more or go faster, she’s pressuring him. Maybe she scared of upsetting him and her getting in trouble re: disability accommodations. Maybe this is me, fanfic-ing!

      I have one direct report who is…not the greatest employee. It’s frustrating. Long story, can’t be fired. I have to be VERY creative in what I ask Fergus to do. Sadly that means that myself and my other DRs have to do more work or fix Fergus’ mistakes. It might look like I am cutting him slack, but most of the time, my other DRs completely understand why things are the way they are and are well aware of Fergus’ shortcomings. and they know it’s better this way. We also pick and choose what we pass off to him.

      1. ferrina*

        Oof, when I’ve been in this position, I’ve passed off mock-ups of experimental ideas so I don’t have to go back and fix mistakes (positioning: Oh, it was great to see that mock-up! Now that I’ve seen it, I’m seeing several issues that I didn’t originally think of! Let’s take it in a whole different direction….)

    3. ferrina*

      A few questions to ask yourself: What is really frustrating you? What do you know, and what would you not know? What can you live with, and what is a hard line for you?

      I can’t tell if 1) you’re frustrated by the task, or 2) you think you shouldn’t need to help on it, or 3) you feel like Tim is a favorite, or 4) you feel like your boss disrespects you, or something else. Depending on what the source of frustration is, the solution will be different. If it’s situation 2, you should put your pride aside and acknowledge that helping others is part of most jobs. If it’s situation 4, there’s nothing you can do but get a new manager.

      I think it’s also important to acknowledge where your information gaps are. How do you know your boss didn’t say anything to Tim? You wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) be privy to performance conversations with other staff. (or if you regularly are, that might point to other disfunctions at this company.)

      Finally, what can you accept and what do you need to need to walk away from? For example, I’ve worked alongside the boss’ favorite and accepted that as part of my employment. While it sucked to not be the favorite, I was treated with respect and my job had enough other good points that I was willing to live with it (it was mostly memes I wouldn’t get, inside jokes I couldnt’ tell, etc. Which was fine, since I had my own people at that company with our own inside jokes.) If it’s just an annoying task that is now part of your job duties, that may just be part of the job now. But if your boss is treating you badly in a lot of areas, it may be time to walk away.

  91. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I feel like my manager (chief of staff) lately has been really blurring the boundary of his job and talking to me like we’re peers, even though I am actually his (very junior!) direct report. Things like venting to me about executive level drama, talking to me about other reports he supervises, and acting like I have authority to do things that should be his job (like sending departmental communications that really need to come from a manager). I’m struggling with how to set better boundaries here, any thoughts? (I did directly tell him last time he implied I should send one of these communciations “Bob, I am not a manager, this needs to come from a manager” but it’s a larger issue than just that.)

    1. ferrina*

      Stop engaging with him on this topic. It sounds like he’s pretty friendly/receptive to you. Can you say something like “Hey Michael, I feel uncomfortable hearing about Chidi’s performance. I’m not his manager, and I enjoy working with him as a colleague. When I hear about these management-level concerns, it puts me in a real awkward place and actually hurts my working relationship with Chidi. I’ve realized that I need to stop having these conversations with you to make my own work better. Thank you for understanding.”
      You’ll need to repeat several times- he’ll forget and go right back to old habits.

      I actually loved hearing about exec level drama- both for entertainment value but also because being acutely aware of the politics helped me leverage the right person for the resources I needed. If this is not helpful to you, you can use a similar script as above- “Hey Michael, when you share these kinds of things about Shawn, it puts me in a really uncomfortable position.” If needed, you can clarify “I’d really like to not hear about these types of things anymore- I really just need to know X, Y and Z, but A, B and C hurt more than they help.”

      For the manager things- yes, keep doing exactly what you are doing. Remind him of your role, and keep pointing out that what he’s telling you to do won’t work because you aren’t a manager.

      Good luck!

  92. nonprofit burnout*

    Any advice on how to move from a fundraising job to a funder job? I would love to hear from anyone who has pulled this off or knows someone who did! I’m on the market and finding it’s so easy to get offers to fundraise, but nearly impossible to hear back from a funder when I just send out an application. Would love any tips and tricks!

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      By funder, do you mean a foundation? Is your fundraising specialty grants writing and management? Only wondering because fundraising encompasses so many different elements. If you have grants experience, highlight your understanding of grantmaking, program evaluation, proposal evaluation, the grantee-grantor relationship. I know someone who did make this switch, but from quite a high-level job (Executive Director at a small org that did not have a dedicated fundraiser so she did a lot of the fundraising and grants management herself).

      Many, but not all, foundations also want significant subject-area expertise in the grant area. The person I know who made the switch went from fundraising for youth programming to funding youth programming. If you have an area of expertise in fundraising, focus hard on that. If you don’t, I’d look at smaller family foundations that tend to fund random things that come their way.

      Other than that, there’s just more fundraising jobs out there than there are foundation jobs, so it might just take longer. Good luck!

      1. nonprofit burnout*

        Yes, that’s me exactly! (But not an ED like your friend.) Expertise in grantwriting, strategic planning, pgm evaluation, and youth programs, trying to work for a foundation focused on the same issues. I have some other fundraiser friends trying to make the switch and we feel like there’s a curse on fundraisers — once you prove you’re great at getting money in the door, no one can see you doing anything else. But I’m determined to change things up in my next role. I will focus in on the youth foundations and just keep trying to make my case with those transferrable skills. Thank you!

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Good luck! Check out local government jobs as well–some of them have significant grant-making responsibilities and you might be able to pitch yourself there.

  93. Time or Money?*

    I’ve wondered this for a quite some time, but it seems too “work related” for the Saturday thread, and I keep missing the timing for it to ask on a Friday…

    From time to time we see a question here that involves paid leave and the lack thereof (sick, holiday, vacation, FMLA, etc.), and that leads me to ask: if you have a job that does not offer paid leave, would you be willing to take a 10-12% pay cut to have 200+ hours per year (assuming full-time) of paid sick, holiday and vacation time? And conversely, if you do have paid time off, would you want/accept a 15% pay raise to take your time off unpaid, assuming you’d be able to have the same amount of time away from work. I guess I’m wondering: do you look at these two things (pay and time off) as part of a total compensation package, or do you consider them to be completely separate? Curious what the commentariat has to say.

    1. Casper Lives*

      It’s part of the package for me! I’m not paid as much as other jobs (civil attorney). But my benefits are A++.

      I’ve had a couple attorneys try to recruit me. I’ve got some chronic illnesses, so if the healthcare is crap or nonexistent, no thanks and don’t call back.

    2. Jen, from the library*

      I’m having trouble formulating a good answer because FMLA is a law that is for unpaid leave. There is no paid FMLA, so it cannot be lumped in with your other leave. I might be too literal here…sorry lol…

      Employers may choose to pay someone for MATERNITY LEAVE (of which employee would enact FMLA to keep their job), but there are very few examples of an FMLA-able situation that an employer would pay for. Like if someone needed a heart surgery and to be out for 3 months, I don’t think too many employers offer special “serious health crises paid leave.” In those cases, employers usually offer short and long term disability plans, paid for by the employer, employee, or a combination of the two. But usually people don’t participate because they don’t of themselves needing it, “it’ll never happen to me” and this is how you can find yourself in a lot of trouble just from one moderately bad health incident.

      1. Time or Money?*

        Yes. I probably should have said parental leave (maternity/paternity) vs. FMLA, because FMLA is very specific. Interestingly, my employer does offer a “serious health crisis” paid leave, but it has to be my health issue (I don’t get paid to take care of family). Maybe I take that too much for granted.

        1. Jen, from the library*

          INTERESTING benefit! As much as I’d rather have it for a family member OR myself lol. Chances are higher on my family members needing me to be out of work. I’d never heard of that type of benefit before.

    3. Jen, from the library*

      But to give you more of a real answer…no. I like having my days off carved out for me. I make OK money and the terms of my PTO with my employer are mostly use or lose. If that wasn’t a thing here, I’d never use my time, besides sick for me or a family member. I’d just keep banking the vacation forever, which is bad. I would also end up not diverting money to a “vacation or time off” fund and then would be like “I can’t afford to go with out a paycheck for 2 weeks!!!!”

    4. CBB*

      I would happily take a higher salary without paid PTO, provided I was allowed to take unpaid days off.

      Right now I have 60 hours of accrued PTO, which I’ll use eventually, but as of now it’s equivalent to me giving a $2000 interest-free loan to my employer.

      Instead of accrued PTO, I’d rather have that money in the bank where it would earn interest and be available for emergencies.

      (But there is at least one upside to paid PTO: if I get a raise, the value of my accrued PTO increases by an equivalent amount.)

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I want paid time off. I get generous PTO and sick time.

      At the end of the year we can only carry over a small amount of hours. I always use up enough leave not to lose any. Without this guide I would probably use less leave. If I saw lost wages every time I took leave, I’d take less of it.

      I use sick time even needed for me (no immediate family) but it accrues with no loss and I can sell it back when I retire. So I don’t waste it but I don’t nickel and dime it either. Like I could have worked an hour this morning before my PT appointment and I didn’t. I don’t always select the latest appointment to minimize sick leave.

      I like this policy because I get a reasonable amount and I am forced to take it so I’m not stingy to myself.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I see them as separate.

        But also I have worked for the federal Govt my whole life so salary and PTO is set by Govt pay scales so I can’t negotiate either. I don’t have the option for the trade off you mention.

        They are independent of each other. PTO is determined by time in federal Govt (5, 10, 15, 20 year leave amounts). Your pay will change as you get promoted to a higher level/grade.

      1. Time or Money?*

        I made some assumptions, and definitely rounded, but not completely arbitrary. 52 weeks per year, 40 hours per week is 2080 hours. Paid “major” holidays is 7 per year in the US, government/bank holidays is 10 or more, so I figured 8. 64 hours. 80 hours for two weeks of paid vacation and I’ve seen “sick days” provide 6-12 days per year, so used 64 hours. for that also 208 hours paid off from 2080 total hours is 10%. (that does not account for any type of paid parental leave). Going the other way, I wanted to account for generous time off policies, so figured a bit more paid vacation, etc.

        1. pancakes*

          Ok, but I still don’t see funding for more time off would have to come directly out of workers’ wages rather than someplace else. There is a lot more to a company’s P&L statements than that one line.

    7. Overeducated*

      I think it’s a false comparison because if all time off were unpaid, there wouldn’t be a benchmark of how much time is acceptable to take off. I’ve been limited to 2 weeks a year vacation for several years for Reasons. But now I finally have enough to take 4-5 weeks next year and I’m thrilled. I have to take it because otherwise I lose it, so I’m not worried about the appearance of taking too much. If it were just paid out in salary, money is fungible, and there would have to be some kind of other cultural standard around acceptable vacation days. I am aware that if I leave my employer, I will lose some of that (not all will be paid out), which is a major drawback to banking PTO.

    8. LQ*

      Some employers offer short or long term disability insurance to cover things like this? I work in government and that’s what I’ve got. So if I used all my sick I could go on disability to get paid a portion of my salary. I definitely consider that as a part of my benefits. Same as how much sick, and how much life insurance or whatever else.

    9. Software Dev*

      How does unpaid leave work with salary? If I take a half day off of unpaid leave only, what is the dollar amount of that?

  94. Casper Lives*

    How do I avoid being known as the crazy cat lady at work? Perhaps it’s too late! I adopted my foster kitten. Total cats: 3. Total live-in partners: 0.

      1. Casper Lives*

        True they’re entertaining with unique personalities!

        Luckily I’ve found likeminded coworkers. Sure, we’re all collectively thought of as animal lovers, but we’re also good at our jobs.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I say embrace it :)

      However, if you do want to avoid it, reducing mentions of your cats should be enough.

      1. Casper Lives*

        Haha it’s tongue in cheek I admit. I foster animals too. It’s hard to hide the love for furry faces

        2. Lady_Lessa*

          Where I work, most of us have cats (and some have both cats and dogs), so talking about them is normal. This year, we’ve helped a co-worker rescue one from her engine compartment (new home at her neighbor’s) and talked another one into keeping a garage kitten.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I have a pink cat food/water bowl that says “I’m not single, I have a cat”

      FYI, you might think that the bowls that are missing a curved section of the side is a mistake, but they are very good as easy way to pick up the bowl. (My guess is that the first one was a molding error and some bright person realized that it made handling the bowls easier.)

    4. Jen, from the library*

      Don’t let on how many you have! Easy :)

      Seriously, no one should be commenting on peoples’ pet choices. If you can love, care, feed, etc for all of your kitties, then WGAF how many you have? Are they safe, fed, healthy, happy? Do you givez dem all da cheezburgerz and lolz?

    6. Littorally*

      Avoid having a bunch of cat-themed stuff at your desk, and don’t come to work wearing loads of cat hair.

    8. Software Dev*

      I really despise this stereotype. I can’t put it into words but there’s something so deeply misogynistic about it, like I have cats because I can’t get a man.

      I don’t want a man (or woman or SO of any kind). I do want cats.

      (This isn’t aimed at you OP! But it really is a weird, gross stereotype I’ve seen from otherwise liberal people and liberal media and its one of my big pet peeves)

  95. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I have some Friday Good News! My spouse has been invited for a second interview for a job with the city, that would be a big step up in wages and benefits. So far he’s feeling pretty good about the supervisor and the job, so we’re hopeful. HOWEVER, yesterday he came home with a letter from his current employer. It turns out the University where he works has been having trouble hiring and retaining specialists, plus the local minimum wage is going up; so they’ve recalibrated everyone’s wages and everybody got a huge raise. This means that his wage is now in line with the job he’s applying for and it will make the decision to leave (if he gets an offer) a lot harder.

    The Great Resignation is WORKING, y’all, HOLD THE LINE

  96. Metadata minion*

    Does anyone have advice on how to pick up on office politics/gossip better? I keep finding myself out of the loop on things that are happening, and occasionally stepping on sore spots that I don’t know are there. For background, I’m an introvert and autistic so I can sometimes have trouble reading people, but I actually really like almost all my coworkers and enjoy chatting with them on my lunch break and whatnot. I don’t think I’m coming off as unapproachable in general or that people are deliberately shutting me out, but I always seem to miss messages like “Bob is mad at Susan because of the llama supply mixup”.

    I don’t want to gossip in the negative sense of the term, but these sorts of office social dynamics are really useful to know.

    1. Chilipepper attitude*

      I’m neurotypical and I miss the office gossip a lot. And mostly I’m glad to be out of it.
      Do you have a friend or two who seem to know things? If so, can you ask them to keep you in the loop so that you don’t step on toes? You can explain that you like to stay out of most things but then step on sore spots but would like to avoid it.

    2. Software Dev*

      I find just asking works great! “So have I missed anything interesting around the office/anyone have any work drama to share/my team never has any interesting gossip, what about yours?”

      I also say stuff like “I don’t really care, I just like knowing things.”

      Its hard to convey the tone of this in text, though, but I find if you act like these aren’t hush hush secrets, people will generally just fill you in (and if your workplace does have a lot of gossip that people are genuinely afraid to mention, or is all a weird whisper network, that’s a bad sign). But my office has a pretty open/comfortable culture.

  97. Cookie Monster*

    I have just the silliest question but the more I think about it, the more I don’t know what to do.

    My job will have us return to the office in the middle of January. To get right to it, what do you do when you sneeze in the middle of a meeting? Sneeze into your palm? Your elbow? What if there’s snot? Do you leave the meeting to go was your hands? We can’t always have tissues handy right at the moment. I’m middle-aged and yet for some reason I feel like I’ve completely lost how to think this through!

    1. Name, Optional and Salutation*

      Not silly, but normally real right now.

      Sneeze or cough as you usually would, covered with your hands or tissue if you have it. As you would without a mask, if you have snot in your hand, you’d leave the room to wash up; do the same when wearing a mask. You might have to wipe your mask, too. This goes for coughing – cover your mouth as you ‘normally’ would.

      Consider bringing sanitizer with you to the meeting if you do sneeze/cough you can clean up afterwards.

      Keep more masks at your desk/in your bag in case you have to change it out.

      1. Name, Optional and Salutation*

        I answered this as if you were wearing a mask, and sneezing/coughing into the mask. I’ve seen people not cover their mouths/noses when doing so assuming the mask suffices – which it doesn’t!

        Elbow is good but doesn’t have the coverage I have with my hands cupped around my nose/mouth. And keeping sanitizer and/or wipes around makes it easy to clean up.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        But if you’re not wearing a mask and you get snot on your elbow? Did you just leave the meeting to wash up?

    3. Jen, from the library*

      You’ll probably be still wearing masks, so when this happens to me, I just (masked) cough/sneeze/etc into my elbow.

    4. CBB*

      Sneeze into your elbow. Or better, if you feel a sneeze coming, put your mask on.

      (Yes, your mask will be gross after that, but if you’re still using cloth masks, consider switching to disposable and keeping a few on hand so you can put on a clean one as needed.)

      At my workplace, a box of tissues, a bottle of hand sanitizer, and a container of Clorox wipes are supplied in every conference room.

      You can also make a habit of keeping a few tissues in your pocket or tucked into your sleeve. Even if you’re not sneezing, they’re useful in everyday life.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        But if you’re not wearing a mask and you get snot on your elbow? Did you just leave the meeting to wash up?

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I’m also on team sneeze into your elbow. But also carry tissues – I keep some tucked in the pocket of a portfolio I take to meetings. (The lack of pockets in women’s clothing is irritating, but is the reason all my old aunties used to have tissues tucked up their sleeves!)

      1. pancakes*

        My grandmother used to keep them in her bra. Probably best not to pull one out of there during a meeting! I haven’t worked in an office for a while, but I used to try to always have one of those personal packets of tissues in my bag.

        1. Cookie Monster*

          My grandma used to carry them in her sleeve which I thought was weird and gross as a kid but now I get it.

    7. Maggie*

      I sneeze a lot due to allergies so I keep tissues on me or put them in the meeting room. I would sneeze turning away from people into the tissue. If my hand go anything on it, I’d go up to wash then, if not I’d wash after the meeting. I mean do what you’ve always done?? Presumably if you got snot on your hand before covid you’d wash it!

      1. Cookie Monster*

        “I mean do what you’ve always done??”

        Ha, I know but I realized I don’t think I’ve ever sneezed in a meeting yet and the idea of it happening is freaking me out.

    8. Kotow*

      I’m on Team Elbow Sneeze. And when I sneeze, it’s 5 or 6 in a row! Also keep tissues handy if you’re in a meeting.

    9. fueled by coffee*

      Like others have said, sneeze (while masked) into your elbow like usual.

      I keep an extra box of disposable surgical masks on my desk. This way if something happens to the mask I’m wearing (haven’t had sneeze-related issues, but I did once try to take a sip of coffee with my mask on, *facepalm*), I can just replace it instead of wearing the dirty one all day.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        I have definitely come very close to eating or drinking with my mask still on. Probably a lot of us have!

  98. Is the grass greener?*

    Has anyone opted out of the rat race and taken a position at a new company that was a step down?

    Did you regret it? Did you quickly gain that ground back?

    I’m considering a move from management at a high-paying industry back to an IC role. I would still make enough money to be comfortable, but I can’t help but wonder if I’m making a mistake leaving so much money behind.

  99. Jessica Ganschen*

    Last week, I decided to look at my city’s municipal job postings, just for yucks, basically, but I ended up finding a really great job with way better pay, cheaper insurance, and other good benefits. It’s also in the transit department, which is a big plus for me as I’m very enthusiastic about public transportation, and it’s a mix of clerical and physical work, which I’ve enjoyed doing before. It might be a little bit of a stretch for me, but I think I could sell myself as a good candidate. Just about the only downside is that I’d have to be there in person every day, whereas right now, I’m only in the (barely occupied) office one day a week.

    I’m trying to decide if I actually want to apply right now, as I’ve only been in this job six months and haven’t accomplished much yet, and this time next year, I may or may not be hired as an associate as opposed to contracted through an agency. So, I could just tailor my resume, write up my cover letter, accomplish the classroom training portion of getting forklift certified, and put off applying until around then (and hopefully the Covid situation would be much improved and I wouldn’t feel so nervous about being in public every day), but there’s also no guarantee that the job will be posted again a year from now. What do y’all think?

    2. Reba*

      My instinct is, apply, and then make decisions if/when you actually have a decision to make! Like, right now you sound like you are deciding between two choices, but neither of them is actually in front of you: current job might get better, and potential job might make you an offer and might be better.
      Think about your long term goals and which job/path seems more aligned.

    4. Enn Pee*

      Yes – apply!
      Sometimes the wheels of government (like the wheels of academia) move slowly. Depending on the department, it may take MONTHS to hire, even if they love you.

  100. TheAccountant*

    Someone accidentally sent an email to a mass email list. It’s been ten minutes and so far in the reply alls we have: 8 ‘wrong email’ (including one ‘??’), 7 ‘remove me from this list’, 1 dude replying all to tell people to stop replying all, 2 apologies from the sender, and 1 ‘no worries’ – assumedly because of the sender’s apologies but on that email chain with the question marks.

    1. Американка (Amerikanka)*

      Ugh, I feel your pain. I work in academia and this has happened to me before too. The worst was when a spammer sent an unwanted email to multiple faculty and staff across universities. I got reply all “remove me” emails all morning!

  101. Filosofickle*

    How does work travel get counted in your working hours? It’s different everywhere and I’ll ask my boss her expectations, but looking to gauge what the range looks like. (In non-pandemic times.)

    Let’s say I have a salaried consulting role that typically works 40 hours per week but longer hours are expected as needed. One week I have to travel to the east coast for a meeting. That’s a minimum of 12 hours of flight time, plus airport shuttles and possibly layovers and delays. A total of 20 travel hours, but we can call it 15 hours of “extra” time if I can fit in some work on the plane. Would your organization expect you to do 40 hours of regular work + the extra 15 hours of travel? Or work 25 + travel 15? Something else?

    I am pretty sure boss will say travel is on top of regular work, and that would suck. Gut checking what’s out there and what’s “normal” for consultants.

    1. Jen, from the library*

      I don’t have any experience with long haul travel (just driving to meetings around the state) but I fit it in to a work day: driving to meeting, meeting, driving back, either heading home or back to the library. If it’s over the hours I’m supposed to work, it’s comp time. (LOL SALARIED) I just make sure that my work itself is caught up as best I can. I have few deadlines so as long as those things are done and I’m not a jerk to the patrons and I do my other tasks to my ability, it’s fine.

      I do have a very awesome hands off boss and I’ve been doing this for awhile. When I was younger, I’d probably panic and think I needed to do “desk work” to match up for the wasted time driving.

    2. Jen, from the library*

      Hit reply too fast AND put it in the wrong spot. Oof.

      I would HIGHLY doubt any boss, any field would allow you to count flying as work time. Maybe if you have a really cool boss, they’ll let you take a day off here and there without having to track it anywhere as a “make up for all the crap travel.” Good luck!!

    3. snack queen*

      I work in the Arch/Design field and I used to be non-exempt (was paid OT). I was allowed to count travel time from the time I left my door until I got to the hotel or jobsite. I haven’t traveled yet since I’ve been moved to a salary position but our workplace doesn’t really micro-manage our hours as long as we stay mostly billable. Most people just take short days following the trip to make up for it. We also aren’t strict about using PTO for day-to-day appointments. The attitude seems to be that it all comes out in the wash & to use your own judgement.

    4. Thursdaysgeek*

      I am salaried and if my travel was on weekend or non-work hours, my boss would expect me to take some time off later in the week (or earlier) so it evens out to about 40 hours. If it’s as much as 20 hours, it might be better to do a few hours here and there – not officially comp time, but just “you’re paid for 40 hours a week so make sure it is reasonable when you travel” time.

    5. Alexis Rosay*

      What I have experienced is that travel isn’t counted in hours, but in days. If I spend 12 hours flying on a Wednesday, that’s just my Wednesday work day. However, if I spend 12 hours flying on a Saturday, I ask for a free day off the following week. I also request in advance that my deadlines be moved back or my workload shifted in a week with travel.

      For some non-salaried consulting I did, I got sick of spending 20 hours in transit for 8 hours of work, so I started setting a minimum number of hours of work to be paid before I agreed to travel. That actually killed most of my consulting business, but I was mostly okay with that because the travel was taking a huge toll on me.

      1. Chilipepper attitude*

        I work for a city/library. That is how we count travel.
        I think travel should be counted, it is time your employer expects you to be available. Like the laws surrounding “waiting to work” when you are asked to arrive early and wait to punch in.

    6. A Wall*

      The time I did this, it was more of a business hours thing. If I was traveling all day during the work day, I wasn’t expected to then sit down and work all evening to get in 8 hours that day. The travel time during work hours was work for that day. But travel time outside normal hours wasn’t– so say I’m going to leave at 2pm and will be traveling for 6 hours, that doesn’t mean I’ll start work at noon that day so there’s 8 total busy hours. I would typically still start work that morning at the same time, but it was also fine for me to leave as early as I needed to in order to travel comfortably.

      That wasn’t taken to an inconvenient extreme, though. So say if you were about to have to take a redeye flight they wouldn’t expect you to be working 8 hours before and 8 hours the next day after not sleeping. And we were also able/encouraged to schedule travel time over normal work hours so that we didn’t lose like a whole 24 hours solid to work and travel, it was standard to schedule flights so that your travel time mostly overlapped business hours. But we would generally try to preserve some work time into any given day so that we didn’t get behind, didn’t miss people trying to communicate with us, etc. If where you were going meant 12+ hours of traveling, though (which was rare in our case) I don’t think anyone would expect you to then put in a bunch of work hours around it. People would check email on the plane or whatever and leave it mostly to that.

      If memory serves, this is similar to how it’s supposed to break down for non-exempt employees being paid for work travel. Travel time outside normal scheduled work hours don’t have to be paid, but travel time during those hours does. I think because some people traveling were in fact paid hourly, even though most people were exempt and paid a salary, it just became standard to take the same approach either way. It strikes me as a perfectly reasonable balance between losing all your work hours to travel and losing all your personal time to travel.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        This is very similar to my previous work situations. Generally when I had a red eye in the evening, there was flexibility to leave work early as well as start somewhat later the next day. But it was based on reasonableness rather than a direct hour for hour substitution.

    7. Lady Danbury*

      All of my past roles have been salaried. Generally, travel time during the work day was counted as work time and that was the preference. On routes where non-work travel time (such as red eye flights) was the best travel option, generally there was some level of flex time to start working later in the day or the next day if I was flying coach. If I was flying first/business class, there was less flexibility bc the assumption was that the benefit of the higher flight class was that I could get more rest during travel and hit the ground running once I arrived at my destination.

  102. Jen, from the library*

    Hit reply too fast.

    I would HIGHLY doubt any boss, any field would allow you to count flying as work time. Maybe if you have a really cool boss, they’ll let you take a day off here and there without having to track it anywhere as a “make up for all the crap travel.” Good luck!!

  103. longtimelurk*

    Howdy all!

    My company is bringing us back into the office 3 days a week soon, but is having us start hotdesking. I’m grumpy about it mostly for my shoulders’ sake, but it is what it is. Anyone have advice for what to bring/carrying all of it back and forth?

    Thanks!

    1. snack queen*

      I have 2 docking stations, 2 power cords, 2 keyboards and mice (1 set at home, 1 at the office) so I only have to take the laptop itself back & forth. That cuts the weight down a good bit.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Every desk has a full, and identical setup at the office, and everyone has whatever they need/want at home. That does require that the laptops work with the same docks.

        2. snack queen*

          In a lot of hotdesking setups I’ve seen/worked on (interior designer) everyone gets a locker to keep personal items in. So if you had a special keyboard/mouse/headset you could keep it at the office safely there along with your extra shoes, snacks, hot tea etc.

    2. Toodie*

      Get a good backpack, and work on changing your work habits to do everything online as much as possible.

      Pre-COVID I worked two days from my home and three days in a different town, so I had a lot of traveling back and forth. When I started doing that, I was carrying a couple of notebooks, pens, highlighters, Post-its, everything. Gradually I started doing more and more stuff directly on the computer (taking notes and so on) so that I could just take the laptop and not the other stuff.

    3. CBB*

      The only things I carry are my phone, computer, USB cable, a few folders with printed documents, a notebook, a travel mug, headphones, pens, pencils, and calipers. It all fits comfortably in a not-too-heavy shoulder bag.

      Everything else I might need: staplers, post-its, highlighters, etc., I take from the supply cabinet as needed and return at the end of the day.

    5. Jen, from the library*

      Will you be allowed to keep anything on site so you don’t have to lug EVERYTHING back and forth? A cubby, locker, shelf, cabinet…

      Will you have access to shared, basic office supplies or will you need to bring those (or store them in your cubby)?

      The more info we have, the better the answers might be.

      1. longtimelurk*

        So far it’s looking like no storage onsite, or at least they haven’t mentioned it. For covid precautions, we’re also getting our own mouse/keyboard and need to bring that back and forth too. A locker would be amazing and really solve most of my concerns, especially with what everyone is including from their own experience. I think I’ll suggest/ask about onsite storage after a week or so.

        A wheeled backpack might also be the move because I’m in a big city, so commuting via train.

        Thanks all!

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you’re commuting by car, look into one of those rolling file carts. Would probably be too big for public transportation – in that case, a rolling computer bag would be useful. Some have a ton of space.

    7. WellRed*

      My office ( we’re still wfh, but I want to go in very occasionally), has a couple of desks set up with docs, monitors etc. the it guy resisted the “expense” bc he’s cheap but the PTB saw the wisdom in doing this m. Huge huge improvement from lugging my crap, my lunch, my purse.

    8. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d suggest that if you will be ferrying around lots of various items (like your own pens, files, teabags, snacks, personal hygiene, meds or whatever) set up a system of zippered pouches and/or small boxes that will fit nicely into your carrying device, whether you are hauling for your whole commute or just down the hall from your locker. It’ll make finding things easier and reduce hassle.

  104. Mrs. Hoover*

    I have a regular 1:1 with my direct report, Steve. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed and because of this I don’t completely trust his judgment or competency. But, thus far, he hasn’t caused any significant trouble. My boss is aware of his limitations and is probably more comfortable with them than I am. In the meantime, I try to provide guidance, instruction, and support as best I can.

    Yesterday, he mentioned an assignment he was working on and it appeared as though he let someone else from a different department handle a portion of it. It’s not uncommon for this to happen, but in our department, we do try to manage all the pieces that we’re responsible for. So, I told him that in the future, he should take this on and not let others do it. It’s part of our job and responsibility. I was emphatic, but not yelling or angry.

    Still, his reaction was like a wounded puppy. He stared at me while I explained why we do it this way. And when I was done all he said was “OK.” This has happened before. And I have a hard time figuring out whether he understands or whether he’s just trying to end the conversation. At the time, continuing the conversation without a dialog would just feel like I was bullying him. (And to be honest, it’s important, but it’s not something he needs to get in trouble for, I just need him comprehend what I’m telling him)

    I have started opening up to my boss about the challenges of managing him. He doesn’t take direction well, he has poor attention to detail, and basically he’s good at one particular task. One that is an essential part of the job, but I would argue not worth the time, energy, and anxiety that comes in managing someone who doesn’t seem to have the capability of improving in the way we would need him to.

    I don’t think it’s worth cashing in my chips with my boss to fire him or put him on PIP. My boss is a “fixer” and I think views his limitations as a personal challenge to be accepted. I view it as a frequent and frustrating reminder that I do not have the time (and maybe the ability) to manage him in a way that will help him or me. That doesn’t change the fact that I find myself with less and less patience during our interactions. He recently mentioned that he had never attended a major trade show at the end of the year. While we didn’t have one last year, he did attend the one the year before. Normally, I would chalk this up to forgetfulness or confusing one event with another. But this kind of forgetfulness has happened before and when it involves significant events or activities, I have to question what else is going on. Whether its insecurity or a disability or simply a refusal to admit he’s wrong or doesn’t know something.

    I manage a team of 4, so the fact that I have to spend time on stuff like this drives me slightly insane and if I’m being honest, as much as I like my boss and the organization I work for, I am regularly questioning my ability to manage and it is impacting my own mental health. I do think my boss won’t change and therefore this situation will likely not change. It could be that I just need to accept that my job has shifted and find something more suited to me.

    1. BlueBelle*

      If you aren’t able to tell if he understands or not you have to keep probing. “based on what I just told you, how will you handle that in the future?” “if you are unsure if this is something you can pass off to X group, what will you do?”
      You have to not only give him feedback but guide him to the right solution or behaviors.

      1. Sometimes supervisor*

        This is a good idea. It may be a case of an “unknown unknown” (ie Steve doesn’t actually know what to do in this situation but, because nobody’s asked him to actually think about, he doesn’t even realise that he doesn’t know the answer). Asking something like “Based on what I just told you, how would you handle this situation differently in the future?” actually gives him some pointers and some steps to take rather than leaving him trapped in the ‘I don’t know what to do so I’ll hand it off to the other team because that’s worked in the past’ cycle of thinking he’s in at the moment.

    2. Jen, from the library*

      Solidarity. I wrote about my Steve on this thread somewhere. I completely understand your issues. Good luck

    3. PollyQ*

      Have you explicitly discussed your belief that Steve is not the right person for the role with your boss? Before you make plans for moving forward I think you need to know for sure her view on the situation. Perhaps she’d be unsupportive or actually obstructive, but if you make a clear case she might go along with it. If you’re truly in a position where you can’t get rid of a bad employee, then yes, I think you will need to leave this job, because that’s just not workable, and it has nothing to do with your own ability to manage.

  105. Американка (Amerikanka)*

    I am in a full-time academic library paraprofessional job, but seem to complete my work duties in 1 to 3 hours a day during slow times. This whole month has been slow!

    Has anyone else been in this situation? If so, how do you stay sane and motivated? I am applying for other jobs but need to be patient in the meantime. I am tired of people telling me to be thankful. While I am glad to have a job, I am capable of much more than I am currently given.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Wow! That’s a lot of free time. I’ve never had quite that much free time at work, but I’ve done the following:
      – Keep a running task list of ‘if time’ tasks when things are busier, and go back to it when things are slow. Sometimes there were tasks to do that I just couldn’t think of at the moment.
      – Take free courses online to develop my technical skills, with my boss’s permission. It’s a simple thing, but becoming better at Excel ended up helping me a lot professionally. If you are applying for jobs and you see any requirements you don’t fill, you could use your free time to develop those skills.
      – If you have a busy season, develop processes that can help you manage the workflow when things are busy.

    2. Chilipepper attitude*

      I was in a public library paraprofessional job and had the same problem!
      I started writing a training manual of all the tasks we do – I often got scolded for “showing initiative” and expected to get told off for writing it but it gradually became the basis of our whole onboarding/training.

      Maybe you could write the manual for your job?

    3. The teapots are on fire*

      Are you public or technical service? Putting together some bibilographies or handouts on popular topics students are writing papers on could be helpful in public services. Tech services–you could ask about helping out in serials as there are often dead projects back there, or working on whatever your library uses for authority control in cataloging. Or if there’s an uncataloged collection or some older collection that was never electronically cataloged (which applies to many academic libraries), working on record conversion could be an unending project. You could ask to be loaned to Special Collections or archives departments who, again, almost always have some “do whenever” projects. Digitizing some archival photograph collections can become its own department. There’s always undone work in an academic library. You just have to get to know people to find out what that work is and if you can do any of it.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        I once heard of a librarian who would write synopses of research papers she thought would be of interest to her colleagues and post them inside the bathroom doors. YMMV as that wouldn’t be appropriate at all workplaces, but apparently people really liked it.

    4. Worker bee*

      My job, along with many others in my company, slows down in the winter months, so we have what we call “winter projects”. They are basically things that would be helpful in our jobs, but that we just don’t have the time to create/implement during our busy seasons. I will work on them here and there during my downtime or when I need to take a break from my other work, but a couple are things I’ll be collaborating with coworkers who are currently unavailable.

      I also agree with Alexis Rosay* about taking free courses to develop your skills, if that’s allowed. I have watched seminars and videos that are work related and I’ve gotten in the habit of spending 30-60 minutes once a week or so browsing industry magazines looking for articles that are related to what I do for the company.

      I realize this isn’t applicable, but I’ve always been the type to ask if there are things to do or would identify a need and fill it. This will sound like a silly thing to be proud of, but when I was working in hotels ages ago (before gps was common on phones), guests would ask us for directions to X touristy place and we’d google the directions for them. It was slow one night and I decided to create direction cards for the top 10 popular sites. It had directions to the place, along with their hours and any admittance costs and directions from there back to the hotel, as well as our contact information. It was such a simple thing, but something no one had the time or initiative to do.

  106. (Once) New and Dumb*

    A few years ago, I was working at an entry-level call center job. Out of the fifteen or so people in my training group, only about 8 made it to the floor before quitting, and out of them I was the only trainee who wasn’t hired through a temp agency (this will be relevant later). When we were first on the floor, our shift was posted as 9:30-6:30; the lines closed at 6 and we always had calls backed up into the queue, and we were explicitly told that even if it was past 6:30 we were not allowed to go home if there we calls still in our queue and had to stay until no one was left holding.

    The problem was the rest of my team would leave at 6:30, and I would routinely be the only one answering whoever was desperate (and angry!) enough to stay on the line. This usually had me leaving no later than 7, with one night stretching past 7:30 because people were still holding (It might have even been past 8, had the ONE supervisor left in the building not offered to help me take calls). When I brought this up to my assigned supervisor (who left at 5), they told me that since the other coworkers on my shift were hired through a temp agency, they weren’t legally allowed to keep them past the 6:30 shift. I had pointed out that it was concerning to expect a new hire to routinely be the only one answering lingering (and often escalated) calls every night, but I got little more than a shrug and a ‘well you have to do it’ and an offhanded jab at ‘don’t you like overtime pay?’ Thankfully about a month later we got an automated system that drastically reduced our call load, but it became a long running joke (re: not really but that was what they called it) in my office that calls would be answered ‘even if everyone else leaves’.

    I’ve since moved on from this job (thankfully to one that understands the value of properly being staffed) but now that I’ve had time to reflect on this helljob, I wanted your take on this: is what they had said about the temp agency true? Is there truly some legal thing with temp agencies that somehow got them protection against something that I was routinely screwed over with?

    1. Littorally*

      The most likely explanation is that it was their agreement with the temp agency. 9:30-6:30 with an hour lunch is 8 hours, and if the agency contract didn’t involve accruing overtime, then they couldn’t keep them there and remain within the contract terms.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      This is not good management or fair to you, but yes.

      Not something special with temp agencies, but just workers even those with the same duties can have different hours and agreements about staying late. I wouldn’t assume anyone lied to you that the temp contract was written that those employees left at 6:30 no matter what, but your bosses said you had to stay until all calls were answered even if it meant overtime. They managed it very badly, though. There should have been more than one of you for this.

  107. PrairieEffingDawn*

    Just one more week at a job I am very joyful to be leaving! I feel a profound sense of peace but along with that, I suddenly have no motivation to work. I’m getting my handoff documentation ready and organizing my files but my drive is decreasing by the hour! Any tips on how not to check out completely?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Treat every day like it’s your first day, doing the very best you can, and your last day will be no different. You can do it!

  108. intl devt worker*

    Does anyone have good recommendations for resources (books, videos… anything!) that can provide useful guidance for people contemplating a career change?

    After working with the same non-profit organization for 10 years and feeling incredibly burnt out, I took some time off and changed jobs. Only one month in to my new job, the feeling of being burnout is back again. I feel stuck and frustrated that the systemic problems with my sector may never change, that I’m not making a difference, that I waste hours of my day filing reports instead of making a meaningful impact… I can’t seem to sort through what is non-profit industry burnout vs pandemic burnout vs real frustrations with my sector vs idealized thinking about other industries. I know that every job has its problems, but I just don’t know where to go next. Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated!

    1. Rainy*

      I think some Design Your Life work might be really helpful. I’d also read What Color Is Your Parachute if you haven’t already; it tends to be one of those oft-recommended resources because it helps a lot of people. And start chatting with people in fields you might be interested in! It helps to get the lowdown.

    2. Chilipepper attitude*

      My local library has some resources, books, but also online tools, that can help with this. Maybe yours does too?

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Another resource: The Zig Zag podcast has a six part series about career changing. Not everyone’s cup of tea, but maybe worth checking out.

  109. cb*

    i’ve made the same payroll mistake at work 2 weeks in a row. it’s not the end of the world, but my boss has to fix it and is a pain in the butt. i am generally a top performer but i know i’m making these mistakes because work has been extremely stressful. i am constantly exhausted and upset. my boss knows this as well – but i want to apologize again. any advice on how to do so?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I wouldn’t. If you’ve already apologized, the best move is to do it right going forward, not keep making a big deal out of it. It sounds like this is out of the norm and your boss knows what’s going on. Try to let it go.

    2. Colette*

      I think the best apology is making sure it doesn’t happen again. What can you do to stop making that mistake?

    3. BlueBelle*

      I don’t think you need to apologize, I think what would be best is to say “I have been stressed out by the workload and that stress is showing up by making mistakes. I was thinking of doing this before and after that procedure to make sure it doesn’t happen again. “

  110. Back to work mum*

    Does anyone have tips for going back to work after parental leave?

    I’ve been very lucky to take a year off but I’m going back to the office in a week and already feeling anxious.

    A lot has changed in my team and now I’m going from being the longest serving to now not knowing half the new staff.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Maybe check in w/your boss about whether they’ve got an agenda set up for your first day back?

      Then put on your happy face, have baby pics on your phone to show off (but only if they ask), and plan to spend the first day or so just getting your bearings. You may have to spend a lot of time doing things like updating your passwords and scanning email or whatever, maybe reorganizing your workspace and make sure that you’ve still got what you need.

      Make sure that you have an opportunity to sit down and reconnect with the team you know and meet the newbies. Ask what’s the pressing challenge for the week and offer any assistance that will take the load off.

      Have a to-do list. There’s probably going to be a lot of things to add during the day.

      Maybe bring muffins. Everyone likes muffins.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      Agree, give yourself some breathing room. It’s going to take some time to reorient yourself and catch up. Don’t feel pressured to be on the ball from day one. It took me maybe 6-8 weeks to get fully caught up and feel back in my groove.

      Also, consider easing back in by doing half days during the first week. My boss allowed me to do that. I took very few meetings during the first week, just cleared my inbox and caught up with my team and projects.

      Also be prepared for any feelings of mom guilt. It’s natural to feel conflicted (or not conflicted). However you feel, just know that both you and baby will be okay. Millions of parents work and raise kids at the same time. The kids turn out fine. Your kid will too.

  111. QuinleyThorne*

    Had a permittee breakdown crying in the lobby yesterday. Don’t need any advice or anything, since it wasn’t a result of anything I did, and I handled it well. The thing about it that threw me initially was it kinda came out of nowhere; I was just helping him with his concern and got about halfway through my schpiel, and he suddenly started sobbing (and I don’t mean like, misty-eyed or eyes welling up, I mean full on wracked with sobs crying). After the initial shock of it wore of, I ran to get him some tissues, shut the door to the rest of the office in case someone walked by, dropped the customer service voice and just talked to him for a bit until he calmed down. I was able to get him some of what he needed, and put him in touch with the person he needed to get with to help him and everything, I’ve just been thinking about it all day.

    1. Chilipepper attitude*

      It is so hard to be around someone in that much pain. I’m glad you were there for them.

      1. QuinleyThorne*

        Yeah, his business has been closed for the past 9 months due to covid, and he’s finally in a position to where he can reopen, but has been unable to renew his permit because the (new, bugged to shit) online system kept throwing him an error and he didn’t know why. And even though his permit’s in the (extended) grace period and is still technically active, the vendor won’t take any orders from him until he can show proof of renewal (even though we’ve told them about the issues and to just take the orders anyway until we can get them resolved). I’m pretty pissed on this guy’s behalf too, because he’s been trying to do this for two months, and in that time hasn’t been able to get ahold of anyone in permitting whose job it is to help permittees with this stuff. He even came to the office before to get this resolved, and the person he saw (who is in permitting!) wouldn’t help him and said to call back when a supervisor was in the office. Thing is, once the guy told me what the issue was, I was able to walk him through how to fix it. It took me five minutes. Tops. Poor guy’s livelihood is on the line and it took two months to get five minutes of someone’s time, and I’m not even in permitting.

        They’re lucky that I am but a kindly and humble admin assistant, because if I was a supervisor and this happened under my nose, I’d have fires lit and heads rolling.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Sometimes holding things together during crisis is A LOT. Being the person who is reaching out to help with a piece of it can be a bit like being downstream of a dam that’s about to bust.

      You did the perfect thing, and provided grace in the moment. That was a good day at work.

      2. QuinleyThorne*

        Thanks. It didn’t really feel like it, but at hopefully I made things a little easier for him.

        Now I just gotta hound that team lead to make sure he actually called him back.

  112. Nauseous with Anxiety*

    How far back to employment verification background checks go? I’ve been waiting on one for a week now because they are contacting every job I ever had- or trying to. Including the waitress and retail part time jobs I had in high school and college 7 years ago. Some of these stores don’t even exist anymore, and I certainly don’t have contact information or even the full names for all my former supervisors. One family owned restaurant I worked at is closed bc the owner got arrested and is in federal prison. Would they really pull an offer over this? I feel nonstop anxiety, nausea, and headaches waiting for this to come back and I need this job!

    1. Paris Geller*

      I work in local government, and while I don’t think our requirements are as stringent as state or federal government, any government agency is thorough in their background checks. I had multiple jobs right out of high school and during college where the business shut down. I would try to relax if you can (easier said than done, I know). I’ve never had a job offer pulled over them not being able to locate all my past work. What I have found though, if you have a work history like mine and yours, the background check does take longer. I think the one for my current job took two and a half weeks, whereas many of my colleagues had theirs done in days. I’ve also moved around a lot, which is another factor in why my background checks take so long.

    2. nym*

      It’ll be ok! There’s policies and circumstances where it just gets let go after you have given as much info as possible and the background checker has made a good faith effort to trace it.
      I passed a federal background check – and at that point some of my college supervisors even five years before were “uhm, I think her name was Marcy? And the business closed? But I officially worked for a temp agency anyway, so I’ve got W-2s from there, but only met my “supervisor” the one time when I did the typing test, no idea what her name was, and she didn’t sign my paychecks.”
      And that’s not even accounting for my on-site supervisor in Peace Corps (obvs the formal PC supervisor was a fed themselves). “Yeah, his name was XXYY. No, he didn’t have a phone, we didn’t have telephone service out there. Or a post office address, that wasn’t really a thing in our country. Nope, no English either. My home address was “neighborhood in the northwest of town next door to a particular NGO’s headquarters” because street names or numbered addresses didn’t exist. Good luck.”

  113. Chi chan*

    I am invited to a lunch with my manager and the other guy on my team. Would a smock top and tights be too casual for it? I am pretty sure the guy will be in Tshirt and shorts. I don’t want to be the most formal there.

    1. PollyQ*

      I’m not sure what a “smock top” is (google turns up a wide variety of examples), but unless it’s more like a dress than a shirt or the tights are more like leggings, I wouldn’t wear it. I feel “tights as pants” is too casual for the workplace. But if it’s a really casual thing, then the same top over jeans or khakis would probably be fine and not read as formal or dressy.

      1. PollyQ*

        In the US, “tights” generally mean hosiery that are opaque and colored, as opposed to “pantyhose” or “stockings” which are sheer and usually skin-colored or sometimes black.

        1. WellRed*

          Yes I’m in the US which is why I was surprised by the idea of tights used basically as pants. I wear tights with a skirt. Not an oversized shirt.

        2. chi chan*

          Oh I used tights as in cotton/spandex tights. Like people wear for yoga. They are thicker than pantyhose/stockings. So you think leggings, are fine. I googled and leggings is what I meant by tights.

        3. BendyWendy*

          Yeah same here. Tights are not something you wear without a skirt or something on your butt. And I’m also from the us. Leggings can be worn without something on top but generally the thinnest are panty hose then tights then fleece lined tights then leggings.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Honestly I wouldn’t wear leggings to lunch with my manager, but then I wouldn’t wear shorts and a t-shirt either! You know your workplace best, but when in doubt I generally err towards more formal rather than more casual. Maybe a casual knee-length dress with (American) tights or jeans and a nice top would work?

  114. Alexis Rosay*

    Has anyone’s workplace done DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) trainings that you felt like actually helped things get better? I feel like most friends who’ve experienced these trainings at work either dislike them a little bit or dislike them a lot.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Just marking my place because I am very interested in any answers to this question

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I think most trainings really can’t address the systemic things unless it’s management taking them and then actually acting on them.

      However, I do find that trainings on things like finding inclusive language and explaining how microaggressions affect folks and things like that can help the rank and file make the little adjustments. People learn from stories. The more stories we can hear, the better.

      Our DEI training right now is an annually repeated online slide show thing. Can’t say it’s particularly illuminating.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        I do agree with this. I have seen trainings on using inclusive pronouns make a huge difference when they were addressed to people who were ignorant (but not hateful) about trans issues. But yeah, they don’t seem to make a systemic difference usually, which I feel like is what you need once you take care of the low-hanging-fruit of respectful language.

    4. Manders*

      My husband’s a high school teacher, and the only DEI trainings he feels he gets anything out of are the discussions where students get to lead the discussion. He works at the kind of private school that has the cash to hire very expensive consultants, and he has some funny stories about nationally famous speakers who committed some very obvious microaggressions against non-white faculty and staff while they were actively doing DEI trainings.

      I’m sure there are some sincere trainers out there, but it’s hard not to doubt the whole industry, especially when a lot of cash is changing hands for trainings. My husband finds it particularly galling because he’s a member of a minority religion and a lot of the trainers who’ve come in had some unexamined prejudice against his religion, so they not only didn’t help, they actively made his work situation worse. And the things that might genuinely help improve the situation at school, like more scholarships for minority students or blind hiring for the faculty, never actually get implemented.

      1. Flower necklace*

        I’m a high school teacher, too, and I lost all faith in DEI trainings when one of my coworkers experienced a microaggression (which the person claimed was a joke, but it really was very offensive) during a training on microaggressions.

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Yeah, I mean no one is perfect, but it was pretty irritating when my former workplace hired some very expensive trainers whose sentences were filled with a lot of DEI jargon. Several people on our team were not native English speakers, not familiar with the jargon, and found them hard to follow. We gave the trainers feedback multiple times on the need to speak plainly but they didn’t change at all, and they seemed lost when we asked them to rephrase their questions. So that training was pretty…non-inclusive.

      2. Alexis Rosay*

        I feel this. I was pretty aghast when I found out the scholarships budget and the DEI budget at my former workplace were equal. I did speak up once and say that we should move some DEI money into scholarships, but it didn’t make a difference so I stopped.

    5. pancakes*

      I think these are two separate questions, about whether people feel positive towards this type of training and whether the training results in discernible changes. My feeling is that if a workplace has problems in these areas, generalized training is extremely unlikely to result in meaningful changes. It’s not meant to remedy specific problems; it’s meant to keep people informed of best practices, and educate them on resources they can turn to if and when they do encounter problems.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Personally, I’m not sure there’s any workplace that does *not* have some problems in these areas. Judging from my work at a small, social-justice oriented nonprofit that was still pretty inequitable in a few ways.

        I think that liking the training, and bringing about change, are linked but separate questions. If the training is supposed to motivate people to make personal changes in their behavior, I suspect that’s more likely to happen if they feel positively toward the training. But I think what often needs to change are structural things at the company in addition to personal behavior, and that’s what these trainings rarely address. When it comes to structural change, it’s less important whether anyone likes it.

    6. pancakes*

      I want to add, there’s a great essay on this topic by Lauren Michelle Jackson that Slate published a couple years ago when Robin DiAngelo’s book “White Fragility” was super popular. Jackson is a Black writer, cultural critic, and prof. who attended DiAngelo’s training. It’s called, “What’s Missing from ‘White Fragility,’” but despite the title it does talk about DEI training more broadly.

    7. Paris Geller*

      My organization did a DEI training for the top down before I started here that lead to the creation of an entirely new role (a DEI manager in HR who is tasked with overseeing coordinators who run the training but also facilitating things like focus groups, looking at hiring data to see where the organization is on goals, etc.) so apparently they can be helpful, but at my level, all the ones I’ve seen have just felt outdated or just like the organization checking off a box.

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        Oops! Looks like my computer ate my comment! I linked to a story on NBC (above) about an African American man who was hired as head of DEI and had his employment offer rescinded before he started for, among other things, being “too sensitive about race issues.” Boggles the mind.

    9. mreasy*

      I think the most important part of them is explaining the process of reporting an issue, and letting managers know they are required to report harassment, no matter what. But I find most people assume they know everything already.

  115. Retrainer*

    I’m a making a career switch from the nonprofit field to a technical field (programming). I’m in a retraining program right now, and we’re going to be placed at local companies for job training. We don’t get to choose our site, but we get to express a preference. If you have worked in technical fields, especially software, what questions to you think would be most important to ask about the potential placements?

    1. Software Dev*

      Probably would help to know what kind of programming and how much you’re familiar with, but generally:
      What is their dev process like? How do tasks get assigned, do they require a code review? (If they have no review process that is bad)
      What version control technologies do they use (and are they ones you’re familiar with)?
      Do they require developers to write tests for new/changed code? (if they say no, run for it)

        1. Neville Gonna Give You Up*

          Sometimes they might not be explicit though – the company I work for doesn’t “require” tests to be written for new code (and if anyone asks, they’ll be told not to bother with the formal process and just to get on with it). However, if you push code for review that hasn’t been tested and doesn’t work, you’ll be asked what the f*** is wrong with you.

          My company is very hands-off.

  116. Angela*

    Any advice for getting over nerves to grow and maintain my network? I was introduced to a lady (let’s call her Anna) in another team by a former manager of mine. I’m really interested in joining Anna’s team in the future and would like to develop a professional relationship with her. She offered to help be a sounding board or make any intros for me but I still feel nervous about following up with her. She’s senior to me and I don’t want to be a nuisance asking her for help or advice. Any tips?

    1. cmcinnyc*

      If it helps, remember that connecting you to people also helps *her* network. It’s an excuse to reach out to people: “Hey Tom, we haven’t spoken in ages, but we have a new teapot designer you should meet!” And then she has some emails with Tom, maybe he passes on some info to her, etc. And you get connected to Teapot Maven Tom. All good. Remember that you have something to offer.

      1. Angela*

        That’s such a good way to think about it. I know networking should be a two way street and as someone who is both junior to her and new to the company I’ve been struggling how to add value to someone’s time when I’m networking. Thank you

      2. Worker bee*

        This is kind of amazing and I’ve never thought about it that way. I think that people who are more junior do hesitate to reach out to more senior people, because they assume that person is too busy/important and it’ll be just one more thing on their plate.

        I don’t know why it never occurred to me that it could be beneficial for the senior person as well, so thank you for that sudden clarity!

    2. Kathenus*

      I had grandparents who really hammered a great life lesson into us, which really stuck with my brothers and me. If someone offers you something, take them at their word that they want to do so and graciously accept. So you are basically being kind in return by presuming they are honest and sincere.

      I frequently offer interns or those early in their career to help with job-related advice – reviewing resumes/cover letters, suggestions for interviews and job searches, etc. People did it for me, and I try to pay it forward. When I offer I mean it, and I enjoy doing it. When I get the sense that someone really would like to, but no matter what I say they aren’t comfortable following up, it’s a bit disappointing because I wish I could make them understand I mean it when I offer.

      Reach out, you’ll be glad you did and each time you put yourself out there like that it’s a bit easier the next time. Good luck.

  117. cmcinnyc*

    We’re back in the office (most days, with some hybrid) and it’s fine, but I am finding my tolerance/stamina for a lot of standard annoyances is gone. It’s not that “I work so much better at home” or anything quantifiable. It’s more like all the little ways I could take care of myself (stretch breaks) plus all the petty annoyances (I want tea and the hot water thingy-do is broken). So not major, but by Friday, I feel shredded. It’s death by a thousand paper cuts. I have a decent job, decent pay, excellent benefits, lots of PTO, want to scream. I’m not the sensitive type (my heart goes out to them–if I’m shredded, they must be puddles of snot and blood). But I feel like I need a vacation every other week. How are you all taking the pressure off or taking care of yourself now?

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh. I’m not even in the office, but the stress of the last year (2 years?) just makes everything harder. You’re not alone- this is a documented psychological effect of lasting stress.

      I’ve been finding I don’t have enough energy for work. I’m accepting mediocrity as an okay way to be (for now. My perfectionist self fully intends on making a comeback).
      I listen to a lot of music, try to prioritize self-care, and honestly, sleep a lot.

      Good luck to you!!

    2. WellRed*

      I suspect it will get easier but definitely lean into things you can control. You can still stretch and maybe take extra breaks as needed? Hot water thingy broken? Can you heat up water in microwave? Etc. adjust as necessary.

  118. Wrench Turner*

    How to deal with your Boss/Job and Contractors at home during major projects in flux?
    For the first time, I’m starting the process for big renovations at my house. Digging for Phase 1 starts Monday but I’m still facing a never-ending conga line of contractors coming for estimates for Phase 2. Over the years I’ve had to deal with a plumber here, electrician there, but never this much scheduling chaos. Just today, for example, I had 3 estimates scheduled but one suddenly cancelled and another came by to introduce themselves but can’t do any actual estimating due to local monsoons. So I have to miss work… again. How does the AAM-verse that’s done this sort of big thing before suggest handling it with bosses? The rest of my life, medical, family, etc. is still going on, mind you.

    Delicious irony not lost on me: I’m also a contractor. I dance in to other folks’ houses all day long…

    1. Black Horse Dancing*

      Can you schedule for evenings and weekends? In my small town, that’s what a lot of people do. Also, since I live close to my work, I can schedule over my hour lunch. If you have a partner, split the duties.

      1. Wrench Turner*

        I can generally do afternoons and evenings so I don’t have to miss a whole day. I trust my partner to get info/make most decisions in my absence) but lots of places say “we need both decision makers there” as a “close the deal now” tactic. I’m supposed to do that, too, and I hate it. Unfortunately I don’t usually get breaks (convenience store or drive thru on the way are ok if I’m lucky) but also I don’t know where I’ll be throughout the day so can’t schedule a block in the middle to come home. I could easily be put on a call 1hr+ drive in any direction.

        1. PollyQ*

          lots of places say “we need both decision makers there” as a “close the deal now” tactic

          Can you push back on that? After all, you’re the customer, and it’s not their place to tell you & your partner how to run your relationship.

  119. Neon Dreams*

    Update from earlier today: I got the job! My boss approved me to make a lateral move to this new department at my current pay grade. It feels a bit surreal. I’ve been trying to leave for years and it’s happening.

    My new position will involve the phone, but will have a lot of other duties as well. I think I will like that better than just answering calls all day.

  120. fogharty*

    I credit this website and all the commentators for giving me the strength to deal with an issue. In the past, like last year, I would have just sat and inwardly fumed.

    This happened earlier this week… Possible Trigger Warning

    I had missed the beginning of the conversation, but I needed to ask someone something, and one of the bosses was talking to them about a documentary he saw about countries that harbored Nazis after WWII, which led to talk about Mengele, and then the Holocaust museum which led to him starting to list all the ways death would occur in the concentration camps (it wasn’t just the gas). When he got to #3 on his list, I stood up and said “You know, I’m going to bow out. I need to talk to [other person] but I can wait until you’re done. I really can’t listen.” and that brought him up short and he said a quick “go ahead” and walked away.

    It’s not that he is on the side of the Nazis, it’s just he gets obsessed about a topic and will go on and on about it, and is very bad about reading social cues and often outright statements like “I hope your dog’s diarrhea gets better… I have to get this email out now.”

    3. CaviaPorcellus*

      Well done!
      Also, I literally lol’d at “I hope your dog’s diarrhea gets better… I have to get this email out now.” He sounds like a trip.

  121. CaviaPorcellus*

    Has anyone here ever worked 40 hrs/week while doing an internship for a grad school program?
    That’s the boat I’ll be in in about a month. Tell me it’s survivable. (Alternatively, tell me how stupid I am.)

    1. Angela*

      Is that 40 hours working at the internship while in grad school or is that on top of the internship? I work full time and am part time for graduate school. It’s doable if you have good time management skills. Plus an internship won’t be forever so you can take comfort in knowing that any stress you have from juggling work + school is temporary.

      1. CaviaPorcellus*

        40 hour regular work week + 19/20 hour internship work week + field seminar class + 1 other regular class.
        My local coffee shop is going to LOVE me.

        1. Paris Geller*

          I think it’s going to depend on how much work your classes are. When I was in grad school it wasn’t uncommon for people to work full-time at 40 hours a week and do a 20 week internship, but adding the classes in is going to be the tough part in my opinion. Generally students would do internships at the end of the program or during the summer when they didn’t have classes.

        1. pancakes*

          Ron Jeremy is in jail awaiting trial on multiple very serious charges. If a mere reference to the guy pleases you this much I’m inclined to think you’re either very easily pleased or have some very odd ideas.

      2. pancakes*

        They’re often not fine, and either way, they’re making enough money at summer internships that paying for the cocaine, food deliveries, dry cleaning, house cleaning, etc., that help them keep up is a non-issue.

        1. Jen, from the library*

          Whoa, pause for a sec…I think this was a joke to a previous thread about someone wondering why people don’t want to work 100 hour weeks…

          1. pancakes*

            It’s not a joke that it’s often a terrible lifestyle, if that’s what you mean. Look up Moritz Erhardt (who died at age 21 from overwork) and Goldman Sachs 95-hour weeks. Or is the idea that it’s funny to merely point in that direction? I don’t think simple irony along the lines of “look, I am doing irony by pretending to be ok with something terrible” is impressively witty.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I spent a year and a half working 40 hours a week at one job (office job), 15-25 hours a week at another job (retail), and volunteering with a youth leadership program 5-10 hours a week, while also taking a 15-18 credit load at community college. So it’s survivable.

      That’s also literally ALL I did for that year and a half.

      1. pancakes*

        This doesn’t seem like the best way to survive, nor the best way to get an education. That it can be done doesn’t seem much of a recommendation.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I didn’t say I recommended it, I said I survived it. (I also finished my associates degree with a 3.9 gpa at the end of that year and a half. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

  122. Anki*

    So I have a weird question. I’m moving into an industry with a conservative dress code – suits are expected. The problem I’m running into is that all the suits I can find are wool or wool blend, and wool makes me itch abominably (yes, even those wools people say don’t). Does anyone have recommendations – stores to try, keywords to search for, other hints?

    If it matters, I’m AFAB, though I’d prefer to look more masculine at work.

    1. The teapots are on fire*

      Look for vegan or summer-weight suits. Tencel or rayon and polyester blends may look accepatable. Pay attention to color; a heathered charcoal may look less “plasticky” than a solid, or the fabric may be so awesome that it doesn’t matter.
      If that doesn’t work, you can try to get the very smoothest wool you can and make sure your shirt collars and cuffs protect you from the wool at the neck and wrist and go for lined pants or wear long under-trousers out of lining fabric (I made some once out of Bemberg rayon lining fabric, basically from a pajama pants pattern.)
      It’s a lot of trouble, but I am made equally itchy by wool and I get where you’re coming from.
      You’ll see some ads for cotton pique or seersucker suits, but these probably won’t cut it in a truly conservative industry.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Cotton and linen are the two most popular alternative fabrics to wool, and they are comparably priced. They won’t be as warm in the winter, but they’ll be much more comfortable in the summer.

    3. Elle Woods*

      I’ve gotten a few pieces at Universal Standard over the years. Their pieces use a variety of materials (often synthetic blends) and hold up well, in my experience. They’re also reasonably priced too.

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      Try looking for vegan or silk suits. Linen is too casual for a conservative workplace. Tailoring is a must. A tailor can ensure the suit looks more masculine, too.

    5. I.*

      There are some! Bonobos has a knit suit and Bluffworks makes (men’s) non-wool suits. (Whether it works for you probably depends on how you’re built. Bonobos is great because they have four fits and can accommodate a wider array of bodies—I’m also AFAB.) I’m allergic to wool too and spent a lot of time searching. I found a lot of them listed as machine washable or as tech fabric—maybe that’ll help you search online? Good luck!

    6. Lady Danbury*

      Back when I was wearing suits regularly, I was a fan of Calvin Klein and Tahari suit separates. They’re usually some sort of rayon or polyester and mix and match well. Kaspar is also an option, though they can look more matronly. Mid range department stores like Macys, Dillards, etc are good resources. Nordstrom/Nordstrom Rack can be an option as well. Corporette is also a good resource for work fashion advice.

  123. The Silent Treatment*

    When can you contact an employer you’re interviewing with and ask what’s up?

    I’ve had two interviews with this company, and all my interactions with them had been extremely prompt, hearing back after each step within a day or two explaining next steps. There is supposed to be a third round of interviews before they make decisions. They had been so speedy and so transparent so far that in the second interview, even though I normally would have asked what the timeline was for next steps, I didn’t.

    Joke’s on me because it’s now been a few weeks and I haven’t had any contact from them. If it were any other situation I would let it go, because generally companies always say “oh we want to move fast!” and then don’t actually move for weeks at a time. But they had been so fast and so accurate to their promised timelines before that I now have a nagging worry that there is something I was supposed to do here and there was some miscommunication. Or maybe this is the bureaucracy lag they mentioned and it’s fine, but I didn’t ask so I don’t know. I feel like I can’t go back now and ask what’s up, though.

    Also, I’m doing some other interviews but I’m much more interested in this company than the others. I would hate to have to miss out because I don’t know what their timeline is looking like. I would much rather ask now than ping them with another offer in hand and have to balance that whole scenario, but that seems like the more standard practice. Any advice?

    1. ferrina*

      You can reach back out! You can say “Hi Contact, I wanted to check in and see what the timeline is for the next steps. I am really excited about this opportunity! Please let me know if there’s anything I can provide you with.”

      After that, though, I’d let it go.

      I also wouldn’t wait until you have an offer in hand- there’s no need to wait that long to check in. Also, that tends to be when you are a top candidate, and it sounds like you’re one of several at this point (pending that last interview)

  124. AnonymousHere*

    How many interviews is too many? I am actively job searching and I feel like my schedule is starting to get overbooked with phone or virtual interviews. It’s starting to feel like I am spreading myself too thin. How would you properly schedule your interviews so it doesn’t feel so overwhelming?

    1. ferrina*

      Three things to consider:
      – How much will your boss notice you taking time to interview?
      -How much will you be drained?
      -How quickly do you need to find a new job?

      If possible, don’t jeopardize your current job. How much you can sneak out will depend on your boss and work situation- I had a remote colleague who was able to do 3-4 interviews a week (she worked late to make up the hours and keep getting her work done).
      Don’t take on so many interviews that you get overwhelmed and will be a terrible version of yourself. No one wants to be at their worst when they interview (mediocrity is okay, though). I love interviews and would happily do 10 a week, but others might top out at 2 or 3. If there’s a really exciting opportunity, push yourself, but don’t push yourself for things that you’re not excited about.
      I would also prioritize the things have higher chance of working out. Don’t be afraid to withdraw from interviews that will be a bad fit (I’ve withdrawn from candidacy several times, and it is a very empowering feeling).

      One thing I recommend is keep a spreadsheet of the jobs you apply to. Keep is simple- Company title, job title, Application date. I also had a Current Status column so I could easily filter by jobs where I had had a screener, or been rejected from, etc. You might want an Excited column (or color code the jobs that really seem awesome).
      I also organized my applications in their own folders. That way I had easy access to the job description (always keep a copy of that), the version of the resume I’d sent in and the cover letter I’d sent in. If I needed to take notes during an interview, those went into the folder too. It made it much easier to remember who I was talking to about what.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      Wow, I admire your ability to get interviews!

      I think it’s too many interviews if it’s leading you to invest time in jobs you’re not that interested in. If you’re interested or excited about each opportunity, then take them all. But since it sounds like you have a lot of options, you can pull yourself out of the running if you’re seeing signs it’s not a good fit.

  125. Time Tracker Website*

    Do I need to send a thank you email if I’ve already interviewed with someone before? I had a 30 minute phone interview with a department head and sent a thank you email, then another 30 minute phone interview with the recruiter and sent them a thank you. Today I had interviews with 2 people within the department, and another 30 minute interview with the same department head again and with the recruiter again. I don’t really know what to even say if I have to send another thank you email to the same people again.

  126. OyHiOh*

    A good news post!

    This is super late so I may mention it again next week, we’ll see.

    We were given a long weekend “for long range planning” that was actually just a weekend for us to catch our breath, because on Wednesday, we received a $1 million SBA Community Navigator Pilot Program grant. To support that work, my hours are doubling, and we’re hiring two new people (almost doubling the current full time staff, lol). I am so excited! The stuff we’ll be doing and supporting under this grant is the kind of programming I took this job to do.

  127. Cheezmouser*

    How can I maintain ownership of and get credit for my ideas and strategies under a new boss?

    Context: I’m the deputy director in my department, reporting to a new senior director that just came on board (“Fergus”). I was the interim department lead while the position was open for several months. During that time, I developed our roadmap and key strategies for 2022 and drove our record-breaking results for this year. I own or am involved with most of the critical projects on our roadmap. Now that Fergus is here, the most appropriate thing would be to hand over ownership of the roadmap and key strategies to him, since it’s his job to lead our team. But those are my ideas!

    Next month, each department will be sharing out their roadmaps for 2022 in a company-wide meeting. Normally it would be Fergus’s job to share our roadmap, but I feel like I should be the one to present it since it’s my work. He’s still getting up to speed and has made no suggestions or changes to it so far, so it is wholly mine.

    I’m not sure how to handle this. I know Fergus would want to use the presentation to establish himself in his leadership role. But I also want to use the presentation to gain visibility for myself, because I’m often overlooked as the deputy. While I know the proper thing to do would be to let Fergus lead the presentation, it’s grating to me since I’m the one who created the roadmap and I’d have to brief him on everything. Should I insist that I lead the presentation?

    1. Kathenus*

      Maybe a middle ground, instead of looking at it as one of you doing this to gain visibility for yourselves, you could proactively suggest that you jointly do so. If you bring it up now, suggesting that you present the history and development of the project, and then he takes over with the current status and future plans, it could be a win-win-win, with the third win being hopefully a step towards a collaborative relationship with your new boss.

      1. Business Librarian*

        I like that answer Kathenus, especially since Cheez’ll be reporting to Fergus going forward. You talk about development of projects and establishment of goals and he talks about plans for implementation. I can’t imagine that he would object to that since he’s so new, but another point is that if questions are asked, he might not have the background to answer them and you will so you should be there as support. I wouldn’t bring up that this is a visibility opportunity for you.

  128. Margali*

    May be coming in too late to get an answer, but worth a try!

    We have a job candidate who is out of the country until the end of next month. We can interview remotely, but we also have two tests that the person would need to take. Is there any kind of remote proctoring system that we might use? We do want to make sure (if we can) that our tests are not downloaded or screencapped and shared.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I once went to a public library to take an exam that had to be proctored. Arranged in advance of course.

    2. WellRed*

      Are these some sort of professional testing or just something internal? Do you really have concerns over (not clear, sorry) cheating?

      1. Margali*

        They are our tests for entry-level engineers. Concern is somewhat over cheating and somewhat over not wanting the tests to end up getting screencapped and shared through the internet.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      It’s a lot more work for you, but could your test be given as an oral exam through Zoom, like a technical interview? I had a remote technical interview once where I was asked to procure an external webcam and given questions through Zoom, and then my interviewer watched as I solved the problems on paper and asked me questions about my approach, etc., as I went, sort of like a thesis defense.

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      In college I was forced to use Panopto to monitor my remote test taking. I’m not sure if it would capture screenshots though.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      What’s your budget? There are solutions like Examplify/Examsoft and MonitorEDU. Depending on the solution you use, you’ll have an option for a 2-factor dealio that locks down the device (no internet, no screencapping, and depending on the software no copy-and-paste), and also requires the test-taker to have a second device, like a phone camera, that allows the proctor to invigilate.

  129. samhain*

    Hello AAM folks,

    I have been searching for some comments in a prior AAM posting, but my google-foo has failed me. There was a conversation about careers/jobs, and a comment thread talked about individuals that would be subject matter experts at a law firm to provide insights or review patent proposals to see if they would be valid/technically feasible. There was a special, distinct name for such a role – but hell if I can remember or find the thread.

    Appreciate the help & insight, TUVM!

    1. Chaordic One*

      Maybe something listed under “Intellectual Property”? Or perhaps a “Patent Examiner” or “Patent Analyst”?

  130. Tiger Snake*

    Does anyone have any tips for keeping contractors feeling ‘connected’ to the team in lockdown or WFH scenarios?

    My area basically a centralised service for the rest of the organisation. If we pretend its compliance; other branches of the organisation run/do projects, and my team gets tagged to assess compliance as the project goes along, collect the evidence and compile it for external audit, completes the certification, that sort of thing. A project cannot move into the production phase without a compliance certification, and we’re very heavily worked.

    Employees get paid by my branch, but contractor pay gets pulled out of the project funding based on how many hours in a week they spent directly working on it. Since contractors are paid by the hour, I need to make sure they’re spending most of their time on projects and not BAU sort of work. But that also means relatively little time in meetings with the team.
    They have access to our team chat and have a once-a-week catchup meeting: but I know the contractors feel disconnected, and I’m at a loss how to fix that when we’re not in the office and more engagement would take time away from the projects we need them to complete.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Something’s got to give. Personally, I’d recommend having some sort of daily chat for 10 minutes or so to keep them engaged and connected and caught up on what was going on. But yeah, it would take time away from the projects you need them to complete.

      OTOH sometimes by having frequent, regular communication with each other it might turn out that you can save some time because everyone is on the same page and not going down a rabbit hole or doing unnecessary things.

  131. Internet of Teapots*

    As part of my grad-scheme, my company assigns each grad two managers (line manager Fergus and early professional manager Jane). Both of mine have widely different priorities and conflicting styles, and I’m sort of stuck in the middle? Help!

    I have biweekly 1:1 meetings with each (their suggestions, which I’m happy with) – one is 15 minutes (Jane) and always ends on time, and the other is scheduled for 30 minutes (Fergus), but always overruns by at least 15 minutes.

    Fergus is incredibly friendly, and a genuinely nice guy. *All* meetings with him end up being derailed (including the whole team meetings), and I know everything there is to know about his wife and kids (and have even seen photos and everything). His style of management is incredibly hands-off: I actively have to seek work myself, and in all my time there, I’ve only been given a total of one task by him (which I automated anyway, so what he thought would take me 2 hours now takes about 10 seconds and is all automatic). I have lots of work, but it’s not thanks to him.

    Whenever he has meetings, I don’t have time to get through half of what I want to say! He views our 1:1s as a general chat about our personal lives, whereas I want to talk about the cool things I’ve done first and about the personal stuff only if there’s time.

    For Jane, I show up to the meetings with the agenda, get through it all, she says congratulations on my great work and keep doing what you’re doing, I occasionally ask a few questions, and she answers. Done. I know nothing about her personal life.

    With Fergus, I use basically the same agenda, and get through maybe half the points at best? He’s a waffler on Zoom, and also in real life. I went for face-to-face drinks with him and a few colleagues, and he’s a very friendly hugger who can talk for days and has an extensive dirty-joke repertoire when he’s drunk. We’re all tech-bros in my team (not my expression), so the standards aren’t very high.

    Anyway, how do I deal with a manager who doesn’t manage? I like his hands-off style, and I love the freedom to choose (now that I’ve settled in)! However, I feel like he’s barely aware of half the things I do (he’s happy enough with the first half), and I’d like to do something about this?

    Also, is the whole boss going out with the team, getting drunk, and oversharing normal behaviour, or is this the exception?

    Jane’s professional working advice is the polar opposite of Fergus’s, and I’m not sure who to listen to? Everyone else on my team is male and older than me, so I don’t want to be the office buzzkill – also, I don’t mind the whole dude-bro atmosphere, as I’m viewed as one of the bros! However, I also know that people who aren’t on my team will judge me if I rock up to the ultra formal office wearing a t-shirt, trackies, and trainers – that’s okay for the men, but not for me somehow.

    1. Internet of Teapots*

      Yikes! That was long.
      TL;DR: Fergus derails meetings so much that I can’t get through the list of work updates and things I have done. He takes hands-off to the opposite extreme, but is such a nice guy and so friendly that I’m really happy with him as a manager. I just want to actually get on with meetings at times though – help!

      Also, is getting drunk with the team at the pub normal, polar opposite professionalism standards, etc?

  132. i'm hungry*

    I’m getting ready to go back to the office, but trying to figure out how to not starve. It’s relatively open and likely to be crowded and there’s nowhere private/distanced to have lunch, and going outside will only work for a few weeks before it gets too cold. (Plus I hate spending 75% of my lunch break traveling there and back!)

    So far my only idea is something like meal replacement shakes and a straw snaked up under my mask, but I don’t find those particularly appetizing. Anyone have ideas for alternative liquid options?

    I guess I could try to have an extra-heavy breakfast and hope for the best, but ~10 hours with nothing but water sounds less than ideal.

    (It’s a regular desk job, nothing physical. Everyone is vaccinated and reasonably careful, but I am more paranoid than most and I just panic every time I think about being mask-off indoors in public.)

    1. Internet of Teapots*

      You could eat something like sushi, which is really easy to eat with a mask on (pull mask down, put sushi in mouth, pull mask up, eat sushi), and doesn’t leave a mess.

      Or else, you could get soup! E.g. tomato soup, pumpkin soup, carrot soup.

      Alternatively, a smoothie?

      1. I'm hungry*

        Soup and smoothies probably make sense, I wasn’t thinking of soup because anything chunky isn’t straw friendly but I could do tomato or squash I guess.

        With smoothies I worry they’d get gross if not freshly blended since most of the recipes I’ve seen involve semi- frozen fruit and obviously going back to the office means no more cooking during the day!

        Sushi isn’t really a good fit, I guess I should add, I can’t afford to buy lunch so it’s got to be something to bring. Ideally something possible to make in batches on the weekend and take daily. Before I would mostly do salads, or dinner leftovers, sandwiches, that kind of thing.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      I haven’t tried this yet, but maybe do the Spider-Man thing where instead of pulling your mask down off your nose, pull it up from the bottom so you can take a bite but keep your nose covered. Pull back down while chewing/between bites.

      1. I'm hungry*

        Most of my masks wrap-tie at the top so that’s hard to do, plus still involves exposure. This isn’t about fulfilling a mask mandate or anything- I genuinely do not feel comfortable removing it that much.

  133. LQ*

    I fully expect no answer but wanted to throw this out.

    What is the word for the thing I did?

    My boss said we need a giant cornucopia.

    I wrote out a bunch of very detailed documents about what all of the vegetables should be, how many of each, ripeness, how to build the cornucopia itself, the size and shape of that, the timing of when we would need it, the skill of the builders, the amount of materials for weaving it, all the resources for how to manage the project and ensure it’s success, the budget and all the vendors we would need. I was tired after writing nearly 500 pages to satisfy my boss and all the other people who demanded all this be in place before they gave the go ahead to start to work. So someone else who had better writing skills that I came through and did a draft of a procurement document. I still did substantial work on that document. Then I worked the document through the entire procurement process making sure it met everyone’s standards (the other person stepped away after the draft). Through contracting and negotiations.

    I’m now responsible for the oversight, day to day and all the work to get this giant lovely cornucopia done.

    what the hell is my job?

    Like trying to write this into a resume I’m trying to come up with what I did. I didn’t create it because that’s on my boss’s resume, and I didn’t write it, that’s on the person who helped me’s resume….but what on earth did I do in there? (the ongoing oversight I feel a little more comfortable with but the getting it ready I think belongs on my resume but I have no clue how to say it)

        1. pancakes*

          You’re welcome but I feel like there are other words I’m forgetting! It sounds like you revised it, too.

          1. LuckySophia*

            Maybe you defined and documented all phases of a complex, multi-disciplinary process….identified the necessary components and required specifications of each…. identified necessary internal and outsourced resources and associated tasks/resources for each….established projected budgetary parameters…. drafted original 500-page document and subsequently edited revised document….guided document through internal processes for approval, procurement/RFP issuance and subsequent vendor contract negotiations. (BTW, I’m majorly in awe of what you did!!!)

            1. MissDisplaced*

              It sounds like this: either project or process (or both!) documentation, revision, and approval.
              We have a lot of that on our team and in our company, but they’re not me unless they need graphics to enhance their writing.

            2. LQ*

              Thank you, I kind of needed to read this this moring so I appreciate it. It was a huge amount of work and all the words I come up with feel so small. I think the keeping it broken out into pieces is likely right. And maybe I start with the cost of the cornucopia at the top and then list the pieces to get there below.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      So you you provided the technical content for the procurement document/contract?

      (1) You were the technical architect, Subject Matter Expert, or technical Designer.
      (2) And then you were the Contracting Officer Technical Representative (COR) (US Govt term) during the acquisition phase.
      (3) Now you’re the COR/project manager during the implementation/execution phase and performing monitoring and control.

  134. Calling All Editors!*

    I’m trying to update my resume and have *no* idea how to cast my editorial work as achievements rather than responsibilities. All the resume advice on listing achievements seems to be on specific metrics, like sales and percentages, and that’s just not how my job works. When there’s something to edit, I edit it. Are you all ignoring that conventional wisdom or have you found a way to make it work?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are plenty of qualitative ways to describe editing and lots of other activities. Those resume advice things just list quantitative things because everybody understands what those mean.

      * Writers consistently happy with my work
      * Writers seek me out to edit their work
      * Feedback from customers that our user documentation is easier to read and understand than what they get from our competitors
      Etc.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      You can also provide metrics on workload (ie responsible for editing the work of 6 writers, edited over 200 articles per month, improved average turnaround time from 4 hours to 2 hours, etc)

  135. JekyllandJavert*

    I’d like to get some thoughts on whether the technical issues I had here were a deal breaker and whether the short length of this interview was a bad sign. I interviewed for an internal position on Thursday. This was the 2nd interview for this position. I was told ahead of time that it would be a video interview. I signed on to Zoom and the hiring manager asked me to turn on the video. For some reason there was no video option that I could find. She told me where to go to find it and it still wasn’t there. I offered to sign on via my phone but she declined and chose to proceed with the interview audio only. Do you think this was a deal breaker?

    The interview was scheduled for an hour but lasted less than 30 minutes. She started out by saying I had done really well in the first interview according to the interviewers (I was also told this would be a video interview but they ended up doing audio only and never said anything about video). She asked me if I was still interested based on what I learned about the position in the first round, asked a behavioral question to which she said I provided a really good example, and asked about my proficiency in Excel and PowerPoint. Then she said “That’s all I have for you. Your cover letter and resume speak for themselves.” And she gave me the opportunity to ask questions. One other thing that happened is she said “The person you’ll be” then corrected herself and said “or whoever gets the job will be replacing…”.

    1. Roma*

      There’s no way to know from this side. None of that is automatically a big deal and it’s entirely possible they will make you an offer. If they don’t, it’s possible the tech issues played a part, and it’s possible it was utterly irrelevant. Don’t try to read the tea leaves!

      Try to put it out of your mind, move on, and let it be a pleasant surprise if they offer you the job.

  136. Worker bee*

    I realize this is late and may not get a response. I’ve been feeling unhappy and frustrated with my job lately, but couldn’t pinpoint a reason. After reading here for awhile, I think it’s partly boredom and partly that I don’t have any job metrics or goals to reach for. In my main job, I don’t technically have a manager/supervisor, I’m the only one who does what I do, and I’m not designated a manager, so I feel in a weird limbo position.

    My career “trajectory” with my company has been varied. I started in retail teapot sales, learned how to get finished teapots ready to be sold, then how to sell them online. Two years ago, I expressed the desire to be the Online Sales Teapot Manager and laid out how I felt that would work to the only person who would be considered my boss. He disagreed with me that online sales would be a big enough thing to need any of that. Then Covid happened and suddenly everything I suggested that was silly was implemented, but with him still being in charge (he had always been the point person).

    That’s all a very long winded way of saying I’m not sure how to move up in my company. I don’t think there’s any upward movement with my current position, but since I’ve worked for so many people, in many positions, I’ve started to get more interested in teaching/training. Our training documents are a decade old, so they are essentially useless, so I’d like to completely overhaul and update it all. I think I want to be our corporate trainer, which isn’t a position we currently have. I’m hesitant to say that’s what I want, because I think that will end up encompassing way more than I’m qualified for at the moment, but it would be a new challenge.

    I don’t really want to leave, as I like the company and my current job is dead easy, but I feel like all I’m doing in punching a clock.

Comments are closed.