my vegan coworker is upset about getting non-vegan gifts three years in a row

by Alison Green on January 7, 2025

A reader writes:

I work in a small office of six people, and since we’ve all been here for 3+ years at least, we’re pretty close. We hold a gift exchange where basically everyone buys a gift for everyone else. I understand that’s probably a bit much, but it works for us.

In 2022, my coworker “Marie” got everyone a jar of local honey, which I honestly was thrilled with. Unfortunately she didn’t realize our coworker “Liz” couldn’t have it, since she is vegan (we all know Liz is vegan, but Marie didn’t realize vegans don’t eat honey). It was a shame, but not a big deal. Liz was gracious about it.

The next year, Marie got Liz a personalized collar for her dog. Unfortunately, the collar was leather. Again, Marie didn’t know about this element of being vegan. She apologized profusely and offered to buy Liz another gift, but Liz said it was fine.

This past Christmas, Marie got Liz a gift set of fancy popcorn. She actually asked another coworker what a vegan snack was as she was getting everyone a gift with a “snack” theme. However, she got a different coworker one of those gift sets with summer sausage, cheeses, mustard, etc. (This coworker is a man with very Ron Swanson type tastes, food-wise, so he would appreciate this.) The problem is these gift boxes looked very similar once wrapped and Marie accidentally switched the labels, so “Ron” got the fancy popcorn and Liz got the sausage and cheese. Yikes. Liz looked genuinely shocked when she opened it, and Marie gasped and began to explain, asking Ron to open his gift to show the popcorn intended for Liz. Liz was very quiet throughout, and the coworker who had recommended the popcorn said she had indeed suggested this to Marie. The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning, but I really think Marie tried this year. Liz finally traded gifts with Ron and things awkwardly moved on.

The problem now is Liz is being very cold to Marie, and Marie confided that our manager had a talk with her, saying Liz feels that Marie has a pattern of bullying her through these gifts. Marie was so upset because she really didn’t intend any of this, it was just ignorance the first two times and then this last one was a complete mistake. She knows how it looks but she doesn’t know how to fix it. In such a small office, one person openly thinking another is a bad person is very awkward for everyone. I don’t know if there’s anything Marie can do to mend fences with Liz, but if there is I would love to suggest it. I feel she’s apologized and been backed up by the coworker who suggested popcorn and Liz is being a bit unreasonable to hold a grudge. But I’d love to hear if you think there’s anything Marie can do to fix it.

Liz’s reaction seems like it might be more than is warranted, but it’s also true that Marie was kind of an ass here.

Not knowing honey isn’t vegan, fine. Many people don’t! Not knowing about leather, okay; again, many people don’t. But when you’ve messed up two years in a row, it’s pretty damn thoughtless not to check the ingredients on the next gift to make sure you get it right this time.

It’s understandable for Liz to be exasperated at this point, especially if Marie made a big deal of thinking she was finally getting it right, particularly since cheese seasoning is probably the most obvious of all three mistakes. It’s reasonable that Liz is thinking, “Really?”

For what it’s worth, I think the accidental swap with Ron’s gift is a red herring. I’m sure that upon opening a meat extravaganza, Liz had an initial moment of shock; if she thought that was her gift, it might have seemed like an intentional F-you. But once it was clear what happened, the mix-up shouldn’t have been a big deal … except that her actual gift was also a problem, and at some point all of this combines to feel like Marie is being almost pointedly thoughtless.

I’m curious about Marie and Liz’s relationship outside of gift-giving occasions. Do they normally get along? Liz’s comment that she feels Marie has a pattern of bullying her through these gifts makes me think the rest of their relationship isn’t particularly warm either and something more is going on. If I were their manager, I’d be digging into that. And if I were Marie, I’d be doing some self-reflection on what this is all about.

But you’re basically a bystander; there’s not much role for you to play, and involving yourself risks adding to the drama. That said, if you’re close to Marie, you could suggest that she apologize again and assure Liz that she will be more careful in the future — but only if she really means that (since if in reality she’s going to continue not to bother checking ingredients, pretending otherwise will just make things worse).

If Marie really wants to try to smooth this over, she could get Liz a replacement gift that’s actually vegan. She’s not obligated to, but it would be a gracious way of demonstrating that she’s truly trying to make it right (but OMG please make sure this one is really vegan; we do not want her offering up a side of beef or something next). If your area has a vegan bakery or similar, a gift certificate from there might be thoughtful. There are also online vegan bakeries she could order from. (Or, obviously, she could avoid food gifts altogether! But actually getting it right with food in a way that Liz can trust — i.e., not something Marie cooks herself — might be a more powerful statement that she’s really trying.)

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  1. Carlie*

    Who was it who said “once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern”? Regardless, Marie is being incredibly ignorant here – who buys a gift with cheese components (the 3rd gift) for a vegan? At this point it does seem like she’s doing it on purpose.

    1. H3llifIknow*

      Not to excuse Marie, but… if the popcorn set had cheese powder sprinkles like I see some places, I could see how she’s thinking “this is fake cheese; it isn’t real made from milk, so it shouldn’t be a problem.” But having said that, yeah Marie is either a complete clueless clod or she’s doing it on purpose with juuuuuuuuust enough plausible deniability to say “oh it was clearly a mistake, so sorry won’t happen again,” which is pretty awful if that’s it.

      1. PineappleColada*

        Honestly, I’m still hung up on the idea of having to get five (!) thoughtful gifts for my coworkers.

        Gift-giving is not my love language, and I tend to be pretty bad at it. I just don’t really care about gifts, and so it’s hard for my brain to create salience around giving gifts to others. Then you have the downward spiral aspect: I’m bad at it, so I avoid it, then when I do shop, it’s at the last minute and I’m time pressed and I just grab something, which is usually kind of lame, which reinforces my belief that I’m bad at it.

        I don’t have a huge social network, so I don’t have to buy gifts a lot. Plus…the majority of adults I know don’t really care that much about gifts either.

        Add in the fact that so many of us have lots of family stuff, logistics, cooking, events around the holidays…and we don’t know their industry, December can be a busy season for many businesses.

        I think what’s most likely is she’s not good at the gift-giving skill. She specifically tried to improve by asking somebody for a vegan idea, then neglected to think through the “toppings” aspect.

        On a lot of webpages, the picture of the gift will be the primary thing. And then maybe the two seasoning jars are very small, and so she didn’t even think about them.

        It’s a little shocking to me how many people are jumping to the conclusion that she’s being a total jerk. I mean, in general, getting someone a dog collar is super personal and sweet! So she messed up on the material, what a crime.

        1. PineappleColada*

          I’m actually more surprised that the advice doesn’t entail rethinking the gift exchange. The LW writes “It works for us”…but does it? You have one person icing another person out due to …popcorn?… and you have another person who is clearly unskilled at this group activity.

          Interesting how there’s a lot of compassion in the commentariat for people who are introverted and don’t do well at office social events, and people who are physically limited and don’t do well with sportsy-type activities.

          Everyone overlooks that this is another type of skill that not everyone is great at. Clearly she is trying, based on asking her coworkers for ideas. But I guess it’s easier to ascribe that she’s being terrible.

          1. NothingIsLittle*

            As Alison said, I suspect it’s about far more than popcorn and that’s just the easiest issue to point to. This sort of thoughtlessness might accompany many microaggressions that are difficult to pinpoint but contribute to a feeling of alienation. Not to say that Marie is necessarily doing it on purpose, she could just be oblivious, but from the outside three gifts in a row (especially one containing cheese) does raise my concerns.

            1. PineappleColada*

              I hear you, but nothing in the letter indicates that. I think we are expected to take them at their word, and LW didn’t mention anything about Marie doing anything else to make Liz uncomfortable. In fact, LW says that Marie gasped when she realized her mistake.

              1. ChubCucumber*

                The one thing in the letter that indicates that is Liz escalating to their boss.

                She’s worked with Marie for three years and been gracious about getting non vegan gifts for two. That does not sound like someone who escalates on a whim.

                1. Cabbagepants*

                  Escalating to management about gifts is unhinged. your manager is there to manage work, not be the recess attendant when you don’t get the present you want. goodness.

                2. Rose*

                  (Replying to Cabbagepants but comments aren’t nesting)

                  I agree, which is what makes me think there may be other issues at play and this was just the straw the broke the camel’s back.

                  Although I do think this is bigger issue than simply not liking the gift. Liz has a firm ethical stance (not just a preference) against eating/using animal products, and receiving animal products three times in a row from a coworker who knows perfectly well that she’s vegan…a lot. Probably not worth getting a manager involved if it is indeed the only issue, but I can see why she’s pissed.

                3. ChubCucumber*

                  Cabbage pants, I’d agree with you that Liz was overreacting if it happened the first year or the second. But it seems like Liz is seeing a pattern and felt she needed it to be addressed which is not unreasonable after three years.

                  The fact that Marie thought she should vent to LW about seems to me like further indication that Liz was justified in going to the boss.

                  Calling her “unhinged” is also a weirdly strong reaction to what Liz did. People go to bosses for help navigating relationships with colleagues all the time, and we only have LW’s second hand report from Marie about what Liz said.

                4. Pizza Rat*

                  it also makes me wonder if there are other incidents that support the complaints, though I’m not sure bullying is the right phrasing. Willful ignorance, maybe. Lack of basic consideration?

                5. Cabbagepants*

                  Cucumber: not getting a good present three times in three years isn’t bullying, and your boss isn’t there to adjudicate petty squabbles. It would be appropriate to escalate a tricky interpersonal issue that was related to work (internal politics blocking a project, for instance). But “my colleague doesn’t get me thoughtful presents” is not a problem for your boss.

                6. JSPA*

                  Replying to Cabbagepants,

                  this isn’t about it being a “bad gift” and wanting a “good gift.”

                  Compare giving (say) a smoked ham to your coworker who keeps halal or kosher. Not only will it be viscerally disgusting for them to have handled it, it’s a kick in the teeth to their belief system.

                  Or giving a jack-in-the-box to someone with a known clown phobia. After having given them a clown mask, the year before.

                  Or if you’re not able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, let’s see…

                  maybe consider how you’d feel if someone knew you liked to grow roses, so they gave you a warm, wiggling odiferous baggie of worm-composted cat poop, “for your roses.”

                7. ChubCucumber*

                  Cabbage: this isn’t about not getting thoughtful gifts. This is about a long term colleague getting gifts as part of a work gift exchange during which it seems that personalization is one of the criteria, and those gifts are not only not personalized but violate the ethical beliefs of the recipient. Once, understandable; they may not know each other very well. Twice, okay, that’s unfortunate, but other peoples beliefs can be hard to understand. Three times? It’s very hard to not see that as intentional, especially when there are literally thousands of gifts that wouldn’t involve even a smidgeon of risk. These are people who work together in a small office every day, there’s zero chance Marie doesn’t know of any other possible suitable gifts after three years.

                  It’s odd to me that you aren’t seeing this. Is it because Liz is vegan?

                8. Jessica*

                  Cabbagepants, escalating to management about gifts is not unhinged if those gifts are being used as a vehicle for bullying. A male executive with a history of harassing women got my female coworker a framed picture of a vibrator with a Christmas card telling her she needed to relax. Just because something is a gift doesn’t mean it’s innocent.

                  What’s Marie’s attitude toward Liz’s veganism outside the gift-giving? For that matter, what’s the rest of the company’s attitude? OP seems more annoyed by it than anything else, which makes me wonder: if there are work lunches, are they going to or ordering from places that provide vegan options? Are people pushing food on Liz that she can’t eat? Would OP even notice if that were happening?

                  Gifts send a message.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                We are taking the LW at their word that they don’t know of anything else that Marie is doing to make Liz uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean that Marie hasn’t done anything else to make Liz uncomfortable… or that LW is necessarily correct that Marie gave non-vegan gifts three years in a row completely by accident/ignorance.

              3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

                The LW may not have mentioned micro aggressions because they are unaware of any, or because they only happen when Marie and Liz are alone. That’s how abusers work after all.

          2. Brain Sturgeon*

            Interesting how there’s a lot of compassion in the commentariat for people who are introverted and don’t do well at office social events, and people who are physically limited and don’t do well with sportsy-type activities.

            Also, how about not everybody has the money for this nonsense? I’m lucky if I can afford Christmas gifts for my immediate family much less 6 coworkers!

            1. PineappleColada*

              Agreed. I honestly feel they should rethink the whole tradition. In addition to this debacle, I can imagine there are one to two people who feel like they have to participate, even if they can’t afford to.

              It’s easy for these type of gifts to run $20-$40. So that means you’re spending $100-$200 on your coworkers.

              I can’t imagine spending this much…taking the time to buy and wrap gifts for five coworkers…and then being vilified for it.

              1. Slow Gin Lizz*

                Yes, this! I am all for giving thoughtful gifts to people but giving gifts to coworkers makes this very tricky. I’m at a stage in my life where I am lucky enough to be able to afford necessities and slightly-better-than-entry-level items for my hobbies. I don’t really want anyone buying my hobby stuff for me because I don’t need any more cheap/duplicate stuff (I’ll just donate it) and a work gift exchange isn’t a place where I would expect anyone to buy me expensive hobby stuff anyway. The dog collar strikes me as similar, because unless Liz mentioned at work that her dog needed a new collar, why would she need a second one?

                I don’t like waste gift items and a coworker gift exchange is exactly the kind of thing that creates waste gift items. Am I just a curmudgeon or am I trying to ward off wastefulness? I even get kind of sad when people bring me consumables that I don’t personally consume.

                Anyway, I think that if they want to still do some kind of gift thing at OP’s workplace, they could mix it up a bit and do Secret Santa or a Yankee swap. They could be very careful to get lists of people’s likes/dislikes (Liz could be really clear on what gifts work for her as a vegan) and raise the amount so that everyone buys a nice gift – instead of, say, $20 for each present, make it $50 for one gift and it could be something really nice.

                1. Another Kristin*

                  They should do a gift exchange instead where everyone buys/goes home with one gift. Marie would probably still figure out how to buy something Liz can’t use, but hopefully someone else would wind up with it!

                2. Grace Poole*

                  I definitely don’t like getting “junk” gifts from coworkers, even if they are meant with great intentions. Instead of a gift swap, I’m a fan of a nice lunch. Go someplace (or order in) from someplace a step up from pizza or sandwiches. Everyone pays for themselves and gets what they want; no one is spending a bunch on gifts for coworkers.

            2. Raven Mistress*

              Good point! I still recall working in a nonprofit child-care center (not exactly known for paying huge salaries!) in which the “Secret Santa” gift exchange went on for two. whole. weeks. Each employee drew the name of a colleague and was then supposed to give that person a small present every day for two weeks (that was 10 presents.) At the end of that time, we were supposed to give a bigger present to OUR “Secret Sana” – thus, a total of 11 gifts altogether. This could easily add up to $70 or more – and this was in the 1980s!

              Please, managers – have a thought for your employees who are NOT earning six or seven figure salaries! And do NOT make employees give gifts to colleagues when they can barely afford to give them to their own family members, okay?

              1. Bear Expert*

                What?! WHAT?!

                I do this kind of thing for the child I birthed from my body and pretty much no one else. I have coworkers I have laughed with, cried with, and because terrible things can happen, bled on. I have people who have been coworkers who I count as some of my dearest friends.

                Under no circumstances are we doing this. (My dearest friends and I have all given each other the gift of not requiring gifts on any particular timescale. If I see something or get a flash of insight about a thoughtful gift for a friend, I do it. Holidays and birthdays get texts and hugs.)

          3. hardia*

            This was my immediate reaction: I’d be shutting down the gift exchange so fast, and assumed that’s what Alison’s advice would be (although I guess that’s more advice for the manager or decision makers than the letter writer). I’m not a fan of gift giving in the workplace to begin with (so many issues, from personal finances to the effort involved to the question of if everyone celebrates the holiday), but at the first hint of problematic gifts (even with good intentions)? We’d be done.

            1. PineappleColada*

              100%! Yeah oftentimes Alison will say “If you were the manager, I’d tell you…” so I was surprised she didn’t do that in this case.

              Also since it’s such a small team, this impacts everybody. I think the LW has standing to go to the manager and say, “Maybe we should rethink the whole tradition.”

            2. PineappleColada*

              Yeah, these are great points. I mean, any time there’s a non-necessary social activity that is disrupting the business environment…the advice is usually to eliminate (or adjust expectations) on the social activity.

              And with a 6-person team, I think the LW does have standing to suggest it to the boss.

            3. Bast*

              I’m not sure shutting down the gift exchange in general would be the best thing for Liz. I am not sure of the dynamics on the office, but this could easily turn into, “Ugh, because of Liz we can’t have the gift exchange anymore” and everyone is (sub)consciously upset at Liz. This wouldn’t necessarily be fair to Liz, as she didn’t march into the office and demand the gift exchange stop, but there’s no guarantee the office would see it that way.

              1. DrMrsC*

                I agree with Bast. I think shutting it down with such a small team could cause more widespread drama. Seriously though, after the first two alleged “ooops” gifts, how hard is it to pivot and go with a gift card? Although there seems to be a plausible risk of even a gift card being to something like a restaurant known for its Tomahawk steaks and gooey mac & cheese sides with garlic butter candles to dip your bread in!

                1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

                  I work for a small company and the first year at Christmas after I was hired, I found out that the office staff (six or seven at that point), all bought gifts for each other. It was pretty much implied that this tradition wasn’t going to change and I knew I didn’t have the social capital to change it. (The horrified look I got when I said that was an awful lot of gifts was comical.) Over time, we’ve whittled down employees and I’ve discovered the gifts aren’t quite as extensive as I first thought.

                  But in the end, for LW, the issue is that ONE employee cannot give gifts that work for one other person with one specific issue. It’s not that the whole system is broken- it’s Marie that can’t get it together.

              2. Clisby*

                Or who knows, it might be a giant relief to a couple other people. I have enough to do around Christmas that buying 5 gifts for co-workers would be a giant pain.

          4. Totally Minnie*

            I get where you’re trying to go with this, but if you’re buying a gift for a vegan and you’ve already got them a non-vegan gift two years in a row, it doesn’t take special gift-giving instincts to think maybe you should google “is (gift idea) vegan?”

            1. PineappleColada*

              I mean, she trusted her coworkers advice, so I’m not sure she would Google it. Also, FWIW, if you google “is popcorn vegan?” the AI overview answer is “Yes, popcorn is vegan.”

              1. Jessastory*

                and honestly, “is honey vegan” is a matter of hot debate so who knows what answer she’d get if she had googled it. And some vegans would say reclaimed/recycled leather is ok while others say wool isn’t. Basically, she’d have needed to run the gift idea by the specific vegan she was shopping for.

            2. londonedit*

              It seems to me like she *did* buy vegan popcorn – but she then got mixed up when she was wrapping/labelling the gifts, so someone else ended up with the vegan popcorn and Marie ended up with the cheese version. So that could be chalked up to a genuine mistake – but on the other hand, I agree that if you know you’ve already messed up two years in a row, you should be being extra super careful to make sure you don’t mess it up again. If it was me, I’d have wrapped and labelled the vegan gift first just to be absolutely sure it was the right one.

              I can also understand why Marie is exasperated at this point – you could forgive not knowing about honey the first year, but then she didn’t check the second year to make sure leather was OK? And then, from Marie’s point of view, all she knows is that for the third year running she’s received a gift she can’t use. I’d be pissed off if I was in that situation. I probably wouldn’t go to the level of not speaking to my coworker, but I’d definitely be upset about it. Not only does it suggest the coworker doesn’t really care, but it could definitely come across as deliberate – there are people who have Strong Feelings about veganism and if I was a vegan and I received non-vegan gifts three years in a row, I’d probably feel like someone was trying to make a point.

              1. Jennifer Strange*

                No, the mix-up was giving Liz a gift of meat and cheeses. Her actual gift was the popcorn with the cheese, so it still wasn’t correct.

            1. Coffee Protein Drink*

              Was that really necessary? Other people have made similar comments about costs of such gift events and you haven’t made a point of being snotty to them.

              1. Sweet Fancy Pancakes*

                But that’s the point- all these people saying they wouldn’t be able to/like doing it don’t actually work with this LW, and this particular LW says that it’s not a problem at her job.

              2. Lana Kane*

                I think so, because comments that say “I couldn’t afford that” are not germane to the question. It’s irrelevant whether someone in a team of 10 could do this, when this team there are 6 people and they apparently like the gift exchange.

        3. Blue Pen*

          I understand what you mean, and I don’t completely disagree, but for someone who follows a vegan lifestyle, receiving a leather gift is offensive—whether the gift-giver intended it or not.

          Accidents totally happen, and I wouldn’t expect everyone to closely memorize the rules of my diet and lifestyle choices. But if this a repeating pattern, and Liz has made it clear in the workplace that she is a vegan and cannot use or consume animal-based products, I don’t see how she would take this any differently. (And especially to Alison’s point, I would bet there’s more going on underneath the surface here that is heightening the reaction.)

          As a vegetarian, I find it somewhat odd that people tend to treat vegetarian or vegan lifestyles as some kind of mysterious, unknowable thing—but they’re really not that complicated. I get that it forces another to confront something about themselves that they might not want to engage with, and that can be uncomfortable, but refusing to learn the basics when it comes to gifting your colleagues is a bit strange to me.

          And maybe this is at the extreme end of things, but I can tell you that if someone were to give me a fur coat, for example, I would be *incensed* and deeply, deeply offended.

          1. Saturday*

            Vegan here – I actually wouldn’t find it offensive. I would be unhappy with the gift of course, but when a lot of people think “vegan,” they’re thinking about what the person eats and might not think about leather. If I thought the person just made a mistake, I wouldn’t be offended – but I really wouldn’t want the leather.

            1. Cordelia*

              I wouldn’t be offended by any of these individually – people don’t always realise honey isn’t vegan, people sometimes only think of diets when they think vegan, and ingredients such as cheese in popcorn can get missed if you are not looking for them. However I would be offended if the person got it wrong for the third year in a row, as it just doesn’t seem like they are trying to get it right.

              1. Cat*

                Plus, taken individually, while honey is an animal product, and should be avoided unless you (general) know the recipient is specifically OK, some people who identify as vegan do make an exception for it on the basis that the bees can and will just leave if they’re unhappy, which is an option most animals don’t have to the same degree…

                1. Catherine*

                  Honey is totally the easiest mistake here and definitely one I could see myself making. My vegan friends are pro-honey because “the bees are unionized.”

              2. Cmdrshprd*

                “However I would be offended if the person got it wrong for the third year in a row, as it just doesn’t seem like they are trying to get it right.”

                IDK maybe I am giving Marie too much credit, but I do think Marie is really trying.

                First year was general ignorance/thoughtlessness on giving honey.

                Second year Marie took Alison’s suggestion and stayed away from food products and got a collar, that happened to be leather not realizing that it wouldn’t be vegan.
                To be fair I have met some people that are/call themselves vegan in their diet, but are not following a vegan lifestyle, ie they won’t eat animals or animal products like cheese, milk, eggs, etc…, but wear some animal products, or even drink non-vegan items like wine/beer, not it not vegan.

                The third year Marie actually tried to consult with someone about a snack, so given the green light on popcorn proceeded full steam ahead with it, but failed to check individual items. I can understand this in that sometimes I get tunnel vision so if the thought is “popcorn=vegan” and coworker told me it good, they are moving forward and not thinking more about it.

                1. A Cita*

                  You’re very generous. And I genuinely appreciate that. I’m less so because the cheese wasn’t something hidden in an ingredient list…it was jars of cheese topping, so would be obvious. At the very least, I assume she isn’t actually trying very hard.

                  Playing into my interpretation I sure is from being directly attacked about my diet (and I’m simply vegetarian–vegans get it much worse) on the regular, that it makes it hard to be generous in interpretation for the smaller slights.

                  Literally had one guy say: “Give me your reasons you don’t eat meat and I guarantee you I have a good counter argument!” Me: “No.”

                2. Cmdrshprd*

                  @A cita

                  “The problem is these gift boxes…..The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning,”

                  I don’t think it was two jars of cheese, but rather cheese seasoning, which I am imagining is a salt/pepper shaker type. A gift set/box, makes me think of those prepackaged/sealed basket/box that have stuffing in them, and you can’t always see everything super closely.

                  From a quick glance the cheese seasoning may have looked like popcorn salt other poppcorn seasoning (ranch, butter, carmel) etc…

                  Going back to being told and thinking popcorn=vegan, I can totally understand (I could have, or maybe even have done similar things) seeing a popcorn gift set/box and thinking pop=vegan this is the perfect gift, no need to inspect further.

            2. Arrietty*

              I agree. I’m vegan and I have a dog – I wouldn’t buy him a leather collar but I wouldn’t get offended by someone else doing so. It would be a bit hypocritical given how much meat I buy for him to eat.

              It’s easy to not realise about stuff like cheese powder. My own mother recently assured me that a cake she had made was vegan – I specifically checked because I thought it was surprising and she confirmed it didn’t contain milk. A week later she apologised, having realised that it did contain butter. Which is made from milk. If I’ve been vegan for a decade and my family still make mistakes like that, I’d never expect a colleague to be paying that close attention.

          2. Nightbringer*

            I agree with you. I also question why she just didn’t ask Liz? If she was really trying as Liz to make her a list either of snacks or basic vegan rules. I’ve had ppl do that for me when wanting to food gift give (I’m vegetarian but follow some vegan things) Even if it’s genuine mistakes, the feeling of thoughtlessness stings.

          3. HideInTheBushes*

            Different people have different approaches to vegan/vegetarian lifestyles.

            For some vegan folks factory made honey would be a no-no but local small batch honey would be ok because the ethics of it are different.

            Some folks are vegan for purely environmental reasons and are ok with certain leather goods because it’s typically more sustainable than imitation leathers.

            But then some folks feel strongly enough about the ethics of their approach to veganism that they won’t even wear fake leather/fur etc because of what it represents.

            Some folks are vegan in diet only and don’t apply the same views to clothing/furniture/shoes etc.

            It’s a super individual thing, just as a lot of people’s relationship to various social and political issues are.

            The woman in this story absolutely should have been more mindful, but let’s not pretend that there aren’t a million nuances to the way people approach vegetarian and vegan lifestyles.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Ironically, Marie’s gifts started in a nuanced area where there’s internal debate (honey) and ended up at cheese, which I don’t think anybody serious argues is vegan (and is debatably vegetarian if there’s rennet involved).

              1. A Cita*

                Yes! Also people who are “vegan” only in diet typically don’t label themselves vegan, but say they eat a plant-based diet. But I get that is kind of insider-y information and hard to discern on the outside.

                But cheese? No one is confused about whether or not cheese is vegan. (And it was jars of cheese, not hidden in the ingredient list.)

                1. Potato Potato*

                  In theory, yes. But in practice, I can’t eat dairy and I’ve been surprised by how often people get it wrong. Some of the sillier mistakes have been: buttermilk, cream cheese, and ice cream. Don’t ask me. I didn’t sign up for this allergy

                2. HideInTheBushes*

                  and “plant-based diet” is a relatively new term too, people really only started commonly using it in the last decade and depending on who you ask it can mean anything from “I am vegan” to “I eat primarily plant-based foods, but I don’t strictly exclude animal products” – so even that is filled with murky lines.

                  The cheese powder is bad. If there were like 20 powders included and 19 were vegan it still wouldn’t have been a great choice but I could understand the rationale of “well it’s just one she’ll have to chuck or regift” when it comes to a gift to/from a coworker, but it doesn’t sound like that was the case.

                  I’d wager she got caught up in the idea that all of those powder cheese flavourings are called “fake cheese” because they often don’t contain much in the way of actual cheese, but she didn’t connect the dots that this doesn’t mean it’s vegan.

            2. Media Monkey*

              but there’s definitely a “safe” area for vegan gifts where you check the ingredients/ ask in the shop/ check with the website/ order from a specific vegan gifts site (i haven’t checked but i’d be surprised if there wasn’t one! i’d suggest not food at all if you’ve got it wrong twice, but that’s not good advice for the LW.

          4. Totally Minnie*

            You’re right that this is not some kind of secret, unknowable phenomenon. There are whole websites and communities online who post about this in public.

            I have a family member who got diagnosed with celiac. So now every time I want to buy something for this family member, I google “does this have gluten?” It’s actually really easy to find information about these kinds of things if you’re willing to try.

            I’m guessing that’s what has Liz upset. It looks like Marie is willing to try for the rest of the team, but she’s not willing to try for Liz.

            1. Carys, Lady of Weeds*

              To be fair, as someone who is gluten, dairy and nut free, there are hidden ingredients that are totally problematic for me but that don’t present that way at all – like pea protein. It gives me hives just like peanuts do and it’s an incredibly common ingredient in dairy free stuff.

              I’m not trying to give Marie a pass on her thoughtlessness, but it can be hard to train your brain to look for stuff like this if it’s not a habit. For a family member? absolutely. For a one-time-a-year-during-the-holidays coworker gift, when you have to get different gifts for five separate people? I can understand why this would be difficult. (For the record, getting it wrong three years in a row is pretty terrible, and I’m a notoriously bad gift giver. I agree with everyone saying the gift exchange should just be scrapped. )

            2. Ineffable Bastard*

              But honey and leather are debatable and there are vegan people who are okay with them. Gluten is not debatable; either it is present in food or it is not.

              1. zillah*

                to me, though, this is actually kind of the thing – there are absolutely specific things that are debatable, but there are a lot of things that aren’t debatable at all. why go with the debatable thing rather than play it safe, which really isn’t that difficult – lots of things just straight up say they’re vegan, and if something labeled vegan is wrong, i don’t think anyone would feel slighted by that.

            3. Coverage Associate*

              I bought a vegan family member $15 worth of fancy certified vegan chocolate for Christmas. It was meant to be shared with another family member who is allergic to dairy, but I realized that it had an additional allergen when I was wrapping it.

              My point is if you must give food gifts, there are foods that make good gifts that are labeled vegan. There’s also items labeled “vegan leather.”

              I have a third family member who has a deadly peanut allergy, so I have been dealing with this most of my life, so I am mostly used to reading labels very carefully, but I messed up this Christmas, though I caught it just in time. But if all I had to worry about was veganism, I would just find something labeled vegan.

              Also, coming from a family with so many food restrictions, I wouldn’t have suggested fancy popcorn. Cheese is a common popcorn flavor, and the caramel and butter flavors could also be a problem.

        4. WillowSunstar*

          Right, I’d be more likely to get them a gift card to a store I know they actually shop at, especially someone with food restrictions.

        5. SleepyPlants*

          The five thoughtful gifts thing makes me wonder if this is an issue for everyone else in the office or just Mario.

          If the other 4 coworkers all manage to find simple yet pleasant vegan gifts for Liz each year without drama, than it really seems like Marie is a jerk or absolutely clueless.

      2. Yorick*

        And if the gift box came with a separate seasoning, I could see giving it to a vegan and thinking they just wouldn’t use that bottle of seasoning

        1. duinath*

          I would like to gently advise that anyone reading this do not give someone a gift and just figure they won’t use part of it, be it due to allergies, food issues (moral or otherwise) or religious or political leanings.

          1. ShanShan*

            Yeah, I mean, vegans think the production of cheese is unethical, not the eating of it. Having it in your possession is just as bad as having it in your stomach.

          2. FromCanada*

            I mean – yes, you’re correct. However, every year I get given things I cannot use / eat due to allergies and I’ve only ever responded by saying “Thank you”. If it’s in my personal life – that would be one thing, but at work – I just say Thank you and move on. My kids get lots of chocolate nut things this time of year.

            1. ShanShan*

              That is certainly one of the wide variety of responses a reasonable person could choose to have in this scenario.

            2. duinath*

              Oh absolutely, a thank you is the normal response.

              But if you want to give a good gift, go into it with the intention that all of it will be something the recipient will like.

            3. Venus*

              I think it varies from the perspective of my boss gets everyone a small gift of food every year and it’s the same for everyone so if one of us doesn’t like it then we regift it. It’s a different thing if the gifts are thoughtfully different for each person and you get something where you know they can’t consume half of it.

            4. Saturday*

              Agree that’s the correct response – but if someone knows of your allergies and just figures it’s fine because you won’t use that part of the gift or whatever, that’s a bummer.

            5. Anita Brake*

              I, too, have gotten things I can’t use, like nuts, smoked salmon, and dried mushrooms (not allergic, I just don’t like them) When this happens to me, I remember “hey, someone thought of me. Someone took time out of their life to think of me and to buy me a gift.” Remember the old saying “It’s the thought that counts?” That may be an unpopular opinion here, but it’s what I believe. I had no clue, until I read this article, that honey is not vegan (and not vegetarian). I at first stopped to wonder what was wrong with the dog collar, before remembering that leather is made of cow. When Marie gasped at Liz opening the wrong present, to me, it would have shown she was surprised and actually did mess up the name tags. I have personally had a social situation or two where I just keep “messing up,” for fear of getting it wrong again. So I don’t see nefarious intent here. I see someone who may not be up to meeting the level of gift-giving expectations at this particular establishment, but not a personal attack. And when it comes to the situation where a manager needs to dig into a situation over something like this, with all due respect to anyone who disagrees, I’d say to hell with gift-giving. It’s not worth all that; we’re supposed to be working at work.

              1. lanfy*

                The problem with ‘it’s the thought that counts’ is that three years of uncomfortable gifts that conflict with the recipient’s ethics, plus an additional mistake in exactly the same genre, do not say good things about the thought.

            6. Lange*

              The issue at hand is not one gift that misses the mark. It’s three consecutive years of gifts from one person that go against a fundamental belief. Gifts that could be part of other micro trangressions.

              1. Tea Monk*

                Yea, I could see if everyone but one person had figured the vegan thing out and just this one person keeps messing up… I’d be upset, even if I thought it wasn’t important enough to tell my boss

            7. Been There*

              If everyone gets the same gift, absolutely. I’ve given my parents lots of bottle of wines because I don’t drink wine, but it’s a very common general present.

              But these are supposed to be thoughtful gifts, specific to the receiver. She messed up 3 years in a row by picking gifts that at best are questionable for vegans.

          3. Jaina Solo*

            This! Gifts probably shouldn’t be given at all–holiday cards could be a nice approach instead. But there are so many potential issues with gifting someone who has a limited food/goods diet.
            As someone with a food allergy, and tree/flower allergies, some socially acceptable gifts like a bouquet or a box of baked goods is dangerous. With the flowers, it’s mostly just getting totally stuffed up and needing a ton of decongestants but with the food allergy it’s worse. If I look at the gifts from that perspective, I would be frustrated too if I kept getting the thing I’m allergic to. The difference being that vegans typically choose that diet…or am I mistaken on that? So it’s less dangerous and more “you don’t understand my lifestyle” which is still a problem.
            At any rate, I’d just stop having gifts given in the office. We don’t do that at my job, although some years my boss will try to send us a gift card or some kind of thing to show their appreciation for us. But we don’t have mandatory gift giving so none of these issues.

            1. Meaningful hats*

              Regarding your question of choice – sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. I’m on an extremely restrictive medical diet that happens to omit all meat and dairy. I sometimes find it easier to say “I’m vegan” to people who don’t want or need to hear the whole story, even though I’m not subscribing to the entire ‘vegan lifestyle’ by choice.

              1. Morning Flowers*

                Same. I never set out to be vegan, but right now I’m an involuntarily vegan celiac for the most too-long-for-this-post reasons imaginable, and yeah, just don’t even try to give me food, and yes it *is* frustrating when people try anyway.

              2. MamaSarah*

                I can’t help but wonder if, even in this tiny group of six, there are others who are ready to change up the tradition. It seems like A LOT.

              3. Jaina Solo*

                Thanks for that context! I figured I was missing something since I’m not vegan nor are my close family and friends. So I’ve not done much research on it aside from understanding the basics.

                I’m sorry your diet has to be restrictive; I imagine it helps with some chronic condition and hope you’re not in pain/discomfort.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              Most vegans choose to be so, so giving them a non-vegan gift is unlikely to be dangerous. However, that diet choice is often tied to moral, ethical, religious, spiritual or cultural beliefs, so I’d say it’s a bit more fraught than “you don’t understand my lifestyle”.

            3. Azure Jane Lunatic*

              My old office had some people eating plant-based food for ethical reasons (I think), and one person who had a bad enough milk allergy and a few other food restrictions that it was easiest for her to just request a vegan meal.

        2. Tea Time*

          So the recipient just gets . . . plain popcorn?

          This reminds me of my shared household in college where two of us were vegetarian, and the other two thought that when it was their turn to cook it was acceptable to offer curried lamb and rice, with some of it made with out the lamb. So we got . . . white rice with curry powder.

            1. A Cita*

              Flip side, I had an omnivore friend assume I as a vegetarian wasn’t getting enough protein (probably true), and made my birthday cake with protein powder and didn’t tell me. I found out when I tried to swallow down that brick made of sawdust; she found out not to do that when we both realized upon questioning that the protein powder she used was NOT vegetarian.

          2. Blue Pen*

            I’m a vegetarian, too, and I sincerely don’t mean this as a dig to omnivores, but they generally do not think in these terms. Instead of “how can I be inclusive with the meal,” it’s “oh, just take the main thing out and be happy with it.”

            Not quite the same thing, but my (otherwise intelligent) mother offered me a turkey burger the other day, and when I gave her a puzzled look, she said “what? It’s not meat.” It took her a few seconds to catch up. This is a whole other rabbit hole I won’t go down, but many people have completely disassociated from what meat is and where it comes from.

            1. Artemesia*

              it is often so easy to adapt though. I make muligatawny soup for a soup party — the curried base with apples and vegetables is made and then one pot is made with vegetable broth and chickpeas and the other pot with chicken broth and chicken. It is easy to do. A curry lamb dish could be made with vegetables and separated and one batch have something like chick peas or lentils etc and the other with the lamb added.

            2. In the provinces*

              It’s very common for people to understand “meat” as a synonym for “beef”, which is where this sort of behavior, infuriating to vegetarians, comes from.

              1. WillowSunstar*

                Especially since (at least in the US), there’s a major religion here that excludes all meat except fish at certain times of the year. However, this has resulted in many people over the year mistakenly thinking that people on vegetarian diets would eat fish because that’s what said restriction allowed. And some people who call themselves vegetarians do actually eat fish once in a while if there’s no other option (even though that’s technically pescatarian).

                1. House On The Rock*

                  Yep – my mom is a vegetarian, and has been for decades. My MiL can never remember she doesn’t eat fish. We finally had an ah-ha moment where my spouse explained it as “she doesn’t eat any animals”, because MiL has always equated meat with what you can/can’t have on Fridays/during Lent.

                2. A Cita*

                  Ah yes, fish. When confronted with fish as a potential option, I always ask: “Is fish a plant?” That typically clears it up but then makes it confounding when talking about mushrooms. ;)

                3. TigressInTech*

                  Yeah, I have an older family member who calls herself vegetarian and still eats fish. Very confusing when there are also those of us who are vegetarian and *don’t* eat fish at the same party.

                  There’s also a joke about this in the Avatar: The Last Airbender series. When a fisherman offers the main character (vegetarian) some fish in payment for a task, and the main character politely declines on the basis that he doesn’t eat meat, the fisherman replies, “Fish ain’t meat!” So it’s a pervasive enough attitude that it made it into a children’s show in 2005.

              2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

                I suspect a large part of this comes from grouping in grocery stores and restaurants, where you’ll see sections for “meat” (red meat; beef, pork, sometimes lamb), “poultry”, and “fish”. If someone is operating with this mental model, and hear “I don’t eat meat”, they’ll think “nothing from the meat section of the menu/store”.

                To say nothing of the “only actual chunks of meat count” mentality that leads to “vegetarian” soup made with chicken stock, or refried beans cooked with lard.

            3. doreen*

              I think that might be part of the issue with honey – I know that generally vegans don’t use any animal products ( even though I know a few people who just use “vegan” as shorthand for their eating habits ) but I’m not 100% sure I would remember where honey comes from when buying gifts.

            4. Freya*

              Amongst other things, I’m lactose intolerant, but for catering purposes I phrase it as ‘dairy free’ because no one but me knows on any given day how much lactose will set my guts off. I have had to explain so many times that ‘milk solids’ is dairy, and therefore most margarines are not dairy free.

            5. Princess Sparklepony*

              Blue Pen – My 90 year old mom made her vegan friend some homemade soup… with chicken stock. She didn’t think that counted. Her friend noticed right away! We had to explain to her that stock counts. :)

          3. louvella*

            At a conference I went to recently the vegan options on the buffet were 1) curried vegetables 2) rice and 3) a bell pepper stuffed with rice. So vegetables, rice, vegetable stuffed with more rice.

        3. marginalia*

          There are some people who don’t eat animal products simply for health-based reasons, but for most vegans there is an ethical component. Receiving a gift that contains animal products (and has generated a profit for the company selling those animal products) would not be appreciated by most vegans.

          1. Princess Sparklepony*

            Marginalia – I hadn’t thought about that aspect but yes, if the company also does the meat/sausage box that would make the company not one a vegan would want to do business with. That never occurred to me until you mentioned it. Very interesting angle on the gift giving!

      3. LL*

        Yeah, this is weird. How do you not know that vegans can’t eat cheese? Although, tbh, I’d never give a coworker a food gift if I knew they had food restrictions. There are too many ways for that to go wrong. And since I don’t have any food restrictions, I don’t usually check ingredient lists so I don’t know what all the scientific names of things mean.

      4. Estrella the Starfish*

        I can see that generally, but most people would at least check whether the cheese seasoning was vegan, even without the two previous mess ups. And once you’ve made that mistake twice, most people would be extra cautious.

      5. Princess Sparklepony*

        Sort of along the lines of Bacon Bits – they have no meat, they are made out of soy. So they are vegan, I didn’t know that until a few years ago.

        But Marie needs to read up on being vegan before the next gift giving occasion and really do it right this time. (She should have done that after the first gift-pas.)

    2. Artemesia*

      One is happenstance, twice is coincidence and thrice is enemy action. That seems to fit here. There is really no excuse for the ‘mixup’ — seriously? Who doesn’t take care having screwed the pooch twice. And there is no way if I were Marie I would be buying food for Liz — there are a thousand other options for nominal holiday gift exchanges.

      1. amoeba*

        I mean, also, actual vegan food (and drink) is pretty easy to find, at least where I live! Like coffee, the vast majority of tea, nuts, there’s a huge selection of vegan chocolates available even from standard brands… or you just buy specifically from a vegan brand where it actually says “vegan” on the label? This really doesn’t seem like something where you need to search and google to find the one thing that might be suitable, there’s so much out there!

          1. Artemesia*

            yup. same with non gluten. We have a French friend who can’t eat gluten and even in the land of baguettes and croissants, I have no trouble finding gluten free starch/bread options and lovely pavlovas for dessert.

        2. ChubCucumber*

          She could literally buy Liz a box of nice pears or oranges. Very holiday and vegan. There are so many options.

            1. Random Academic Cog*

              In keeping with her inability to get it quite right, she’d probably choose figs as the gift, so even a fruit basket might not work.

              1. Jamjari*

                Many vegans (like yours truly) would be fine with figs since it’s about not harming animals – if the wasp wants to crawl up in there to lay its eggs, that’s its choice. However, some are not.

              2. Princess Sparklepony*

                I am learning so much about vegans today! This has been really eye opening.

                I’m madly looking up “Why can vegans eat ….” Things I never knew. Fascinating!

                I do love the AAM comment boards, I learn a lot of stuff. Some of it useful, some of it weird, but always interesting!

            2. WishIWasATimeTraveller*

              Unless it includes figs or avocados…
              (figs needs wasps to die in order to produce fruit and many avocado farms use farmed beehives to pollinate the trees)

              1. amoeba*

                I just looked this up and it seems that “the vast majority” of figs produced in the US are actually self-pollinating varieties that don’t require wasps at all. (Also, “need wasps to die” is a bit misleading – the ones that do require wasps have a mutually beneficial relationship with them in which their life cycles are connected. The wasps literally couldn’t exist without the figs, either!)

        3. Coverage Associate*

          As someone from a family with a variety of food restrictions, the vegan family member is a lot easier to buy and prepare food for than the family member with a long list of allergies.

          But my spouse won’t buy packaged food for my vegan family member. We have this tradition of sandwiches for Christmas, and I can’t send my spouse to choose vegan bread. So I kind of get that some people find it hard to stick within veganism, even with labels and certifications, but then choose another gift.

        4. Estrella the Starfish*

          And so much snack popcorn is vegan, most seems to be now. I feel you’d really need to try to find a cheese flavour one, vs sweet and salty, chilli and caramel, which are much more common than cheese.

      2. anonymous anteater*

        well we know Marie is clueless about what is and isn’t vegan. I could see a popcorn kit, with different flavoring options (cinnamon, taco seasoning, cheese powder…), so maybe the cheese didn’t feature prominently on the packaging? But I totally get that Liz would find it hard to give Marie the benefit of the doubt. I also still have colleagues who are like ‘it is sooo complicated to understand what our vegan colleagues will eat’, and then the part they don’t grasp is no dairy. It’s like the most basic fact. If you don’t get that, are you trying?

      3. Resentful Oreos*

        I think I’d just be getting gift cards and letting the recipients pick what they want. Unless that is verboten in the office gift exchange, which is dumb, because gift cards are the best gifts, IMO.

        1. Artemesia*

          So many options: a candle, a scarf, a pack of nice colored pencils or markers and a sketch pad, a kitchen item like one of those fancy garlic rockers or citrus squeezers, a book, one of those calendars with clever sayings for each day or cartoons or puzzles etc, a Champagne keeper cork ad infinitim. the options for modest gifts are endless that don’t involve animal products. It doesn’t even have to be wonderful and what she wants — it just doesn’t have to insult her.

          1. Holidazed*

            Candle – make sure it does not contain beeswax or tallow
            Scarf – make sure it contains no silk or wool
            Though most of the other suggestions would be harder (but not impossible!) to mess up, it shows there are more layers of nuance for the uninformed to navigate. So I think googling or buying only something labeled loudly and proudly vegan is a fine idea.

              1. TigressInTech*

                Strictly speaking, beeswax is not vegan because it comes from an animal, but some vegans are okay with it. Some (not all) vegans wish to not use anything from animals ever (regardless of whether or not it harms the animal). Service dogs, horseback riding, and owning pets are subjects of fierce debate in some online communities (because, to paraphrase, the animals cannot give clear and enthusiastic verbal consent to be owned/benefited from). Some vegans are happy to wear decades-old fur coats and leather. It really comes down to a personal choice, but I would steer clear of beeswax anyway if I didn’t know someone’s specific views on it.

              2. kalli*

                And can trigger bee allergies, so better to not give without checking.

                Yes, even the comparatively miniscule amounts in makeup.

          2. TJ Morrison*

            It’s still possible to trip over these suggestions. Does the candle have beeswax, tallow, or lanolin in it? Is the scarf silk? Was animal glue used in any of the office supplies? It’s probably safest to make sure it is specifically labeled as vegan, but that can take a while if you are browsing shelves.

            1. Resentful Oreos*

              I think a book or kitchen gadget would be hard to mess up. TBH, though, if making sure something that is not obviously an animal product (food, leather) is vegan means a lot of label reading, a gift card is probably the best option.

              1. amoeba*

                I’d say a beeswax candle or a silk/wool scarf are pretty obviously not vegan, actually… (Although yes, I’m aware that there are vegans who are fine with them, but going by the literal, most common definition – those are animal products, full stop.)

      4. DataWonk*

        She even messed up with the collar (which is not food).

        I would consult with another human if I messed up twice like that!

        1. acl*

          She did consult! And still messed up. Both in giving the wrong gift and the gift she intended was still not vegan due to the toppings.

          Perhaps one thing that might help, a little, is for Mary to do some research, and talk to Liz about what she learned, how she realizes that she was totally off base and ill-informed previously. But she should have done that after the first gift. (I know, where’s that time machine when you need it?)

          1. Coverage Associate*

            I posted above: gift quality popcorn was bad advice. Cheese is a common popcorn flavor, and even if it’s not real cheese, it usually has whey or something. It’s not an excuse, but it was a weird recommendation to me.

    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I was thinking “just stop buying food for her!” But the leather collar…she sucks at gift giving. I don’t get it. Go on the internet and google gifts for vegans.
      I would feel like she’s doing it on purpose, too!

      1. H3llifIknow*

        Yeah since they all buy for everyone, I’d like to know what Marie’s “track record” is with others being happy with her gifts to them. Is she that clueless with everyone and it just stings more for Liz because they’re so antithetical to her being Vegan, or is everyone else thinking “whoa hit it out of the park this year, Marie!”

        2. KHB*

          I’m more curious whether anyone else has had trouble buying suitable gifts for Liz, or if it’s just Marie.

        3. Kyrielle*

          Also, is anyone *else* blowing gifts for Liz? Sounds like not. Marie could maybe have looked at what they give and just steal one of the ideas.

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            I wonder that, too. Nobody else missed the mark? I believe that everyone was successful, but it is an interesting detail I’d like to know.

        4. Artemesia*

          in this environment I would give everyone the same thing (except adapting for the vegan or if food, the gluten free person etc); the one group I am in where we give gifts every year, each person gives everyone the same thing each particular year.

            1. H3llifIknow*

              Who doesn’t love a fun pair of socks! Bonus if you can get a pair or two with their type of pet or hobby on them!

      2. Anonys*

        Yeah, there’s the ubiquitous candle, the ever popular gift for woman we don’t know well enough to make a more personal gift – also not vegan if it’s made with beeswax.

        The most kind reading is that Marie is genuinely clueless about the concept of vegan and not super detail oriented. OP seems to know what vegan means and could offer to check the gift next time (as in check the actual packaging/purchase link) to avoid further drama.

        1. Anonys*

          also, Marie could also commit to only buy something that explicitly has a “vegan” label somewhere on the packaging.

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            or even googling something? There are plenty of lists online of gifts for vegans. If you’re even halfheartedly interested in getting someone a vegan gift, it’s not *actually* that hard even if you aren’t sure what’s vegan.

          1. KHB*

            OP can advise Marie to do the same check herself (i.e., look for the word “vegan” somewhere on the packaging or item listing, and if it’s not there, do not buy). If Marie is a literate adult, there’s no reason she can’t do that.

        3. Despachito*

          I’d rather get nothing than a candle. And I hate generic gifts “suitable” to men or women.

          I would be a spoilsport but I would definitely opt out of that gift giving. It is apparently a source of stress rather than enjoyment, and who needs this at work.

          1. Miss Fire*

            I believe they were referencing the SNL song about “just giving a candle” (“The gift of having a gift to give away…”)

              1. House On The Rock*

                This year my spouse gave away a candle set we’d had for years in his office White Elephant exchange…only to come home with yet another candle. At least the one he got was smaller and smelled better.

        4. Zephy*

          “The most kind reading is that Marie is genuinely clueless about the concept of vegan”

          In the Information Age, ignorance is a choice. Marie’s had what sounds like 3 years to ask Siri what veganism is, or even type “gifts for vegans” into Google.

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            Not to mention look at Marie’s desk and see what she likes. Even if it’s empty, that tells you something. She doesn’t like clutter. Get her a calendar. Dang.

          2. Yankees fans are awesome*

            That is so unnecessarily harsh. We’re all clueless about something or other no matter how much info. is available. Good grief, the sense of entitlement is strong.

            1. ShanShan*

              We’re not all clueless about something we’ve already done wrong and needed to apologize for twice. Remaining clueless at that point is a choice.

              It’s not entitled to expect that someone who apologizes to you for something will make an effort to avoid it in the future. That’s an expectation of common courtesy.

            2. Been There*

              Choosing to remain clueless after messing up twice is just that, a choice. Put some work into the relationship and do research to not mess up a third time.

      3. SD95*

        I was going to say, in this day and age of the internet, it’s easy to look up if something is vegan or not.

      4. Despachito*

        I would reconsider the gift giving thing altogether.

        Having to investigate what is vegan and what is not is something I may do for a relative or a friend. Not a random coworker I am not invested in. I am very surprised how many people think Marie is a jerk – my take is she is bending over backwards for a person she doesn’t care so much for.

        2. Cordelia*

          really? you wouldn’t make any effort at all to try and find a gift that your random coworker would like? Probably better you opt out of the gift giving altogether tbh…

        3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          I think for three years she’s been bending over backward to impress someone she does want to impress and has failed spectacularly.
          I don’t know which is worse!

          1. knitted feet*

            This is what’s getting me about this letter – Marie IS putting thought into the gifts, she’s just doing a really terrible job! A personalised pet collar takes way more thought than just searching “vegan gifts”. And yet she has this block about actually understanding the basics of veganism.

            I think some people imagine it must be so unspeakably complex they could never understand it, so they go all helpless and don’t even try. When really, a few minutes of thought would generate all sorts of ideas, because the world is full of things that aren’t made from animal products. Books! Stationery! A puzzle! Some nice soft socks in cotton or bamboo! An ornament! A nice pen! A soy candle! A gift card! A mug! A little craft kit! Literally any snack labelled ‘vegan’!

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Like any community, there are some hard-core vegans who I’m sure would be very difficult to shop for, mostly because we’re really bad at actually labeling our ingredient sources. (Is the resin on these wooden puzzle pieces made with resin from lac insects? Are these oranges coated with bees wax? Is this sugar produced with bone char?)

              However, there’s no indication that Liz is anywhere near that strict, and remarkably Marie’s gifts seem to be getting less vegan-ish every year.

              1. knitted feet*

                Oh for sure those people exist. But yes, there’s no reason to think Liz is that strict – and crucially those things are obscure enough to at least not read as an insult. I know tons of people would never have thought twice about offering honey, even, and it sounds like Liz was gracious about that one. But following up with animal skin and cheese? Those were avoidable if Marie had pointed a couple of braincells in the right direction.

              2. Estrella the Starfish*

                Yeah, honey is the most understandable, people don’t really think about honey that much. But leather and then cheese? Even if she finds veganism that baffling, most people recognise cheese as not vegan.

                1. DisgruntledPelican*

                  The leather is more plausible to me. A lot of people who don’t spend any time around vegans don’t know it’s not just a diet for many.

            2. Xanna*

              I’m gifted non-vegan things all the time, and honestly that in and of itself doesn’t really bother me as I can just regift. I try to be relatively low-key about my veganism, so really am not at all offended if people don’t realize, or assume I’m vegetarian instead of vegan, or whatever.

              However, the whole song and dance about how “complicated and unusual” my dietary requirements are, which almost always has an undertone of othering/judgement, followed by a big show of how much effort they’re putting in to accommodate me, followed by a flop that doesn’t meet my dietary restrictions after all is pretty frustrating.

              Just reads as rude, performative, and like the person doing the preparation is somehow incapable of doing basic research, which then puts the recipient in an awkward situation where you’re like “wow, thanks so much for all this work…that being said, a fish is an animal, so I definitely can’t eat this sorry.”

              1. Despachito*

                I think you are projecting here. OP doesn’t write anything about Marie being critical, she was just apologetic.

        5. Valancy Stirling*

          Googling “vegan gifts” and maybe placing an order online is hardly bending over backwards.

      7. Lacey*

        Right. I like to give thoughtful gifts, but after biffing it the first time I would have looked up gift ideas for vegans and picked one, even if it felt generic.

    4. Cara*

      If I were Liz, I’d be believing that Marie is going home and laughing at how she’s getting away with this. Asking about vegan snacks and then getting a version that has something so obviously not vegan feels really brash. We’re adults with internet access. Once she’d made the mistake with the honey, you’d think going forward she’d take the 10 seconds of care it would take to open Google…

    5. Lemons*

      This whole situation has the flavor of “why do those vegans make everything SO HARD!”

      I do not believe Marie is trying hard to accommodate Liz like she claims, because it’s beyond easy to google “vegan gifts” or check the contents of a popcorn multipack to see if it contains very common non-vegan popcorn ingredients like cheese and butter, or just like…do a gift card. I’d bet my vegan hat Marie makes comments about Liz’s veganism at other times, which is why Liz’z reaction seems outsized here.

      1. Devious Planner*

        Your last sentence, 100%. Liz’s reaction is a bit much if the issue is only 3 gifts over 3 years. But if those three years have also included regular side comments about veganism? Of course the gifts would be taken the wrong way.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, this feels like targeted plausible deniability. Except, as noted, it’s not hard to find vegan snacks and gifts if you give one iota of an F.

      3. Annony*

        I don’t think that her reaction is actually outsized. She was essentially given FOUR gifts that were not vegan, one of which was straight up meat. How can someone “accidentally” give a vegan non vegan gifts 4 times out of 3? I think Marie probably is low key bullying Liz and hiding behind “It’s so hard to know what is vegan” and “It was a simple mistake”.

      4. MassMatt*

        She’s either thoughtless or being actively malicious in a very deniable way. In general I go with stupidity over malice in lieu of real evidence to the contrary.

        But either way, her gift giving is doing far more harm than good, at least where this coworker is concerned. Why is she giving everyone gifts? Is this something everyone in the office is doing, or just her? Maybe gift-giving is not a good thing for her to be doing?

        2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          They all gives gifts to each other. So eight people give eight gifts.
          How THAT has been a thing for more than two years is beyond me.
          My group of 8 dropped it year three.

          1. Estrella the Starfish*

            Yeah, even without the Marie situation this is crying out for a secret Santa, having to get 8 workplace gifts is ridiculous. And then you can rig it so Marie never gets Liz, win win.

      5. Tea Time*

        >>This whole situation has the flavor of “why do those vegans make everything SO HARD!”

        Exactly. I think this is weaponized incompetence. “I JUST don’t underSTAND this VEGan thing!” Because deep down she doesn’t want to understand, because she thinks it’s stupid.

        So neither outright clueless nor outright hostility, but a self-deceiving combination of the two.

        1. Moopsy*

          I’m guessing there has to be something like that having been said before all this. I’ve been the recipient of the repeated terrible gifts by family and close friends so I wouldn’t even register bad gifts from a coworker, unless it was coupled with some comments that made me think the actions were deliberate.

      6. Looper*

        I have never worked anywhere except for super-artsy spaces where I did not hear negative comments about veganism, and this includes in workplaces where no one is vegan. I will bet that Liz has to deal with a lot of stuff related to her dietary choices and this gift thing is the final straw. A leather dog collar? C’mon, you could learn her pet’s name but not do a single Google search of “what don’t vegans like”?

      7. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Yeah. “Surely no-one can really expect me to take seriously this silly nonsense” is the vibes I’m getting. Like she thinks it’s beneath her to have to care about such unimportant stuff. Seems disrespectful, low-key hostile. I can see how enough of that would qualify as bullying.

    6. Tired*

      I have a dairy allergy. It’s amazing how many people really can’t seem to wrap their head around dietary restrictions. I’ve had people buy me things that are gluten-free (but contain milk) thinking that “gluten-free” was somehow the same as “dairy-free,” given me things that contain cheese, told me something was “dairy-free” when it contained sour cream… and certain people who I know would never purposefully do me harm have done these things repeatedly. Not sure why but some people seem to have a real mental block around this stuff.

      1. Jaina Solo*

        I have a nut allergy and legit mentioned it to a waiter and got back “oh, gluten free?” And this has happened more than once. The other fun ones are people, like flight attendants, who just stare at you and don’t put into place the accommodation their airline offers.

        I think, as a mid-millennial, that society wasn’t educated on allergies until very recently so most people just don’t understand it. Add to that the decrease in empathy that seems to be more prevalent, and it’s not a great world for allergy sufferers. Ironic, considering we didn’t sign up for this life we’re just stuck managing the cards we’re dealt.

        I’ve had legit fights with my parents over what is/isn’t safe since they couldn’t understand how some of it worked. I had to literally tell one of them I wished I’d never been born if a $1 candy was more important than my ability to breathe; only then did it register what I was dealing with. I expect people to mess it up because it doesn’t affect them. And honestly, it’s shown me who is/isn’t good for my life–if you can’t care about something that would kill me but not harm you, at least while you’re in my presence, then maybe we aren’t a good fit. (I don’t mean they have to panic or wrap me in bubble wrap, but like don’t gift me a Snickers and think we’re good.)

        1. vegan*

          As another person with a dietary restriction, just FYI, you usually need to report your restriction to the airline at least a few days in advance of your flight, either online or by calling them. Otherwise, they will not bring the correct number of meals onboard and won’t necessarily be able to offer it to you.

          If all goes well, you will never need to explain your restriction to the flight attendant — they will automatically know to bring a meal with your name on it directly to your seat (usually before everyone else gets theirs!)

        1. Moopsy*

          The amount of times my own mother has given me cheese when I have never eaten it. She vaguely remembers one of her children likes cheese, just not which one.

          It’s left me with zero expectation that anyone else would remember it.

      3. Lacey*

        People are wild. A friend’s kid has SEVERE allergies to a bunch of stuff. When he was little she would always tell people not to give him any food – because it was almost a full time job for HER to keep track of what he could eat. She didn’t expect other people to know.

        But while not giving him food would have been very easy for people – they wouldn’t do it. They kept offering him food, which she would have to snatch away to keep him from dying. And, of course, being very young he didn’t understand that and would then be super upset.

    7. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Not to excuse Marie, but even vegans aren’t always in the know of what’s vegan and what’s not. And not all vegans choose to follow the same strictest sense of principles. For instance, sugar. White sugar is technically not vegan in some instances, but I know vegans who are content eating it though they wouldn’t eat honey or cheese.

      I think it more likely that Marie just sucks at gift giving. Personally, I’d stay away from all food and clothing if I were Marie.

        1. MC*

          And some are fine using leather because it’s more environmentally friendly (“vegan leather” is pleather rebranded – it’s almost always just plastic). Cheese-flavored popcorn seasoning may not contain any dairy at all. It’s never as one-size-fits-all as it seems.

      2. Jerry*

        It’s always the most safe options out there. Not all vegans exclude honey, figs, leather or whatever but it’s easier to bet on something which is 100% safe. Like oranges. Or gift card.

    8. Beth*

      Yeah, OP, you’re giving Marie too much benefit of the doubt here. It’s not hard to buy vegan gifts nowadays. She could read the ingredients on the label; she could google whether X ingredient is vegan; to be really sure she got it right, she could have bought something that was specifically labeled and advertised as vegan. She’s chosen to do none of that. Despite her annual apologies, it doesn’t look like she really wants to take steps to change.

      If I was your office manager, I’d be seriously considering shutting down the gift exchange–it’s causing a lot of tension and hurt, and that’s bad for team cohesion.

    9. e271828*

      The cheese is telling us that Marie is not being thoughtful about this at all. She’d better stick to fancy pens and plain stationery for gifts.

    10. JMC*

      So it’s cheese powder in separate jars, which is a problem why? Give the jars away to someone else to add to whatever they want, problem solved.

      1. ShanShan*

        Vegans also… don’t want… other people… to eat cheese… either?

        Like, they’re not going to run around grabbing it out of people’s mouths, but this is like telling a hardcore Catholic who was given a gift certificate for a free abortion to just give it to someone else if they don’t want it.

        1. Xanna*

          Cackling – this is amazing.

          Also agreed. Like personally as a vegan, I give non-vegan gifts to people and don’t mind, but “here’s your gift – half of it is for you to enjoy and the other half is a task to find a new home for this random food product you’ll never consume,” is a bad gift, period.

    11. JSPA*

      I suppose I can see that some people don’t understand that honey is an animal product. Some people don’t group insects with “real animals.” Some might figure it’s flower nectar that’s transformed by bees into honey, rather than being entirely something bees produce out of their own bodies (though really, who thinks that bees are incidental to honey?). Or that bees don’t suffer in producing honey (which, yeah, I have met semi-vegans who are cool with honey).

      But how does anyone not know that leather is the skin of an animal?

      If you’re not sure about the difference between “vegan” and “vegetarian” or between “vegan” and “biodynamic” or between “vegan” and any other category–to the point that you’ve gotten it wrong multiple times–how incompetent can you be, to not use the internet to figure out where you’re going wrong?

      If Marie is consistently that incompetent, how is she staying employed? And if she’s not generally that incompetent, how and why should Liz assume that Marie is taking even the most minimal amount of care, in selecting her gift?

      Even if the gift selection is not intended as a direct barb, “WTF, Vegans, who even knows, Ron, do you know what Vegans eat” (with a side of, “I stopped caring when she turned up her nose at the special local honey”?) isn’t responsible, it isn’t respectful, and it isn’t adequate.

      If you accidentally repeatedly act like a jerk to just one coworker, in an 100% avoidable way, you DO need to try harder.

    12. Fish Microwaver*

      Marie really isn’t the sharpest tool. After the honey incident, could could easily have researched what being vegan means. Since some vegans are more rigorous than others, she could have asked Liz about her experience/position. A gift card to a vegan grocer or cafe would have been safer and probably well received.

    13. Limmy*

      Who on planet Earth isn’t aware that honey, leather, and cheese are non-vegan?

      Leather is literally animal skin.

      Honestly most gifts aren’t made of dead animals. It’s so easy to just buy a candle or a book or something. Giving a vegan dead animal skin just feels very pointed.

      1. Carmina*

        I think for honey many people don’t realize! And at least some vegans eat honey, though I don’t know how prevalent this is. Many people don’t think of insects as being like other animals, and you could argue honeybees are not mistreated like most other animals we use for food are. Hell I even know a vegan who kills spiders in her house!

    14. tes vitrines infinies, tes horizons dorees, je veux m'en passer*

      “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action” – Ian Fleming, Goldfinger

  2. T.N.H*

    I’m sure it’s true that many do not know that honey and leather aren’t vegan, but wouldn’t she have Googled it? Especially after the first mistake, I think she should have put a lot more thought into this.

    P.S. Do not get her wine, which is mostly not vegan.

      1. Rose*

        I think asking the recipient is the right call here, since not all vegans have the same standards for what does and doesn’t count. I have a good friend who used to be vegan for environmental reasons, and they still ate honey (since beekeeping is a far more sustainable practice than factory farming), and even wore leather if it was thrifted or recycled. If you don’t know the person’s preferences, it’s best to google it or just err on the side of no animal products—but if you can ask, ask!

        1. br_612*

          Exactly. Some vegans eat honey and wear wool because neither of those harm the animal. In fact, because of the way we’ve bred sheep, some breeds NEED to be sheared for their own health and comfort. And I know a vegan who kept a couple Angora rabbits as free roaming house pets and used their fur to spin yarn. She knew for a fact the animals were treated well, and would also buy other types of wool yarn from smaller farms where she knew their practices. That’s not super relevant, just a fun anecdote lol.

          But some vegans are strict “no animal products whatsoever”. I always err on the side of no animal products until I know for sure otherwise.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Most breeds of sheep need to be sheared – the vast, vast majority, definitely all commercial breeds. There are a few primitive sheep breeds, such as shetland and soay, which still shed their fleece, but those are a tiny fraction of all sheep.

            1. Ellen N.*

              I have never met a vegan who is vegan for animal welfare reasons who would wear wool.

              The concept of a vegan lifestyle is that animals are not ours to exploit.

              Breeding sheep specifically so that they must be sheared is antithetical to that view.

              1. Niles 'the coyote' Crane*

                I know vegans who wear wool. They don’t see it as exploitation when someone shears a sheep.

                1. A Simple Narwhal*

                  There’s also some vegans that are ok with vintage fur and leather purchased second hand. The idea being that they are not contributing to the fur/leather industry since it was created so long ago, and it is infinitely more sustainable than buying new faux fur or pleather since it’s essentially just plastic.

                  Not everyone agrees but it’s just another “no one size fits all” example.

              2. Sillysaurus*

                I know several vegans who only eat strictly vegan but will wear wool or recycled leather. People are different!

              3. Rose*

                Ehh, I think it varies. Plenty of vegans won’t wear wool at all, but some don’t have a problem with it. Or they’ll only wear wool that comes from small independently-owned farms that treat their animals well. Some vegans are opposed to factory farming but not small-scale farming, especially if the animals aren’t being raised for meat.

              5. Xanna*

                Now you have – ethical vegan of nearly 2 decades, and wearing a wool sweater as I type this!

                A pair of leather boots or a nice wool sweater from the thrift shop doesn’t support the demand for more of these products, and last long enough that I’m not constantly throwing away manmade materials that will still be sat in a landfill for several decades, or supporting the huge amount of human rights issues that are often intrinsic to producing new clothing at an accessible price-point.

                People love finding gotchas of vegans not being vegan enough, which is why I think this isn’t really talked about much in online vegan spaces (which can be incredibly judgey and toxic). In my experience, as I’ve aged, I’ve gotten a lot more comfortable with the reality that veganism is about reducing harm and thriving to live an ethical life, but the goal of living a life that has absolutely no adverse effect on the creatures and environment around us, especially in a capitalist system, is an impossibility.

          2. ClinicalSnark*

            Learned something new today – some vegans don’t wear wool (had to Google if silk is vegan, it is not). I ‘knew’ about some vegan’s not using honey, but honestly if queried on the street, I’d probably forget that one. And as other commenters said, some vegans wear leather look alike items or will wear recycled leather products. Some vegans are against keep pets, so if Marie were to go down a google rabbit hole on veganism, there is a lot of conflicting information that varies from person to person.

        2. Miss Chanandler Bong*

          Yeah, came here to say this. Vegans are all different. Vegan friend of mine would have been fine with the first two gifts; she just doesn’t eat meat, milk, or eggs. Lots of vegans are fine with local honey but not leather.

          Though I’d probably stay away from food in general with anyone who has any kind of dietary issues and/or preferences.

          1. MassMatt*

            There are millions of possible gifts that don’t violate a vegan’s sense of ethics and this gift giver has managed to flunk clearing this very low hurdle three times now–four, if you count the fact that the latest round included her coworker getting an “oopsie” meat and cheese gift and then the “real” gift of popcorn with… cheese sprinkles. Thank you very little?

        3. Bear Expert*

          When I’m gifting/cooking for specific vegans I know, I’ll ask about the borderline cases – honey and wool/alpaca where you can confirm the animals are being cared for sustainably and well, thrifted leather, etc. (One of my favorite vegans will accept knitted wool objects from animals where you know the animal’s name. “This shawl is from a fleece from an alpaca named Romeo, I got to pet him and here’s a picture.” meets their standards where commercially farmed wool does not. Absolutely the best excuse I’ve had to go to wool fairs. I need to meet the sheep!)

          If I am gifting to “a vegan” and I’m not friendly enough with them to have the discussion about what exactly their choices and boundaries are, I do not play around, zero animals will be involved to the best of my ability. Organic cotton with plant based dyes or none at all. Vegan bakery with labels. Paper products like stationary. Blown glass, but I’d double check if any of the colorants are conceivably animal related. Possibly a fancy spice collection. I don’t know if they’re coming from a primarily environmental bent, so I don’t know if plastics are okay and I’ll avoid those too. Gift cards or cash exist if you’re not certain.

          If you care about the recipient or at least doing a good job on a gift, you put the research in to do it well. I’d give a pass on the honey but the leather would be avoided with a 20 second google search and the cheese sprinkle is just being careless when you know you don’t have room to be careless. After the first time you get caught out hurting someone’s feelings, you put the work in!

            1. Clisby*

              I hadn’t heard of it in that context, but when I first started dating my husband, I found out he didn’t really like getting meat from a supermarket/butcher shop. He said, “When I eat an animal, I want to know its name.” I thought that was very odd, until I realized that what he really meant was he wanted meat raised like his father did on his Ohio farm. Yes, they raised beef cattle, but they were grass-fed, and pretty much had one bad day. Occasionally they raised hogs, and butchered them, and of course they killed chickens and rabbits, but they raised them and knew they weren’t crammed into some hellhole place before dying.

              1. Freya*

                The best beef I’ve ever had was raised on a friend’s hobby farm. Those cattle were treated very well, liked being scritched, and had names like ‘Brisket’, and when it came time to finalise them, my friend got professionals in so it was done right and mobile butchers with hired cool rooms to hang the meat properly. Expensive compared to supermarket meat, but well worth it.

          2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            When my sister was eating a vegetarian diet, her rule was that she wouldn’t eat meat unless she’d killed the animal herself; she figured that if she wasn’t up to that part, then she shouldn’t benefit from the meat. (We had a hobbyist homestead-ish situation growing up, which meant that we were not insulated from the fundamental source of meat as kids, and we participated in the process even if our dad was the one doing the deed. Our freezer had both commercial meat, and home-wrapped packages with the name of the vicious rooster on it.)

        4. Rose*

          That should say: “if you don’t know the person’s preferences AND you’re not sure if an item is vegan or not.”

        5. Ento*

          Im not a vegan, but I am an entomologist. Bee keeping definitely doesn’t have a huge carbon footprint like beef, but keeping honey bees does spread diseases to the thousands of species of native bees in the US. Honey bees can also out compete native bees for resources. Im not saying not to eat it, just taking an opportunity to jump on the soap box.

          1. Rose*

            Fair enough! My friend and I don’t live in the US and I believe honeybees are native where we are, but they might feel differently about eating honey if honeybees were invasive here.

          2. BellaStella*

            In Switzerland there is a whole issue on honey bees outcompeting native bees, am sure this is the case in most countries but maybe you can confirm? Here are some links to look for:
            Beekeeping in cities may harm wild bees and honeybees
            14.02.2022 | Fiona Galliker | News WSL

            City beehives destroying wild bee populations in Switzerland
            19/02/2022 BY LE NEWS

            Urban beekeeping is endangering biodiversity (March 2022) Swiss Food

            FEBRUARY 14, 2022
            Excessive beekeeping in Swiss cities could be detrimental for wild bees and honeybees
            by Swiss Federal Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research WSL

            27 April 2023
            Wild bees under tension
            Jeannine Suremann

            So important the bee issue. As we face biodiversity loss globally, these fixes are not really working for saving the bees.

        6. Yorick*

          My closest vegan friend eats honey, but I still started out making things with maple syrup instead when she was coming over

          1. Rose*

            Same – I stayed away from honey until I had a good opening to ask about it. (“I want to make you this recipe, but it has honey in it. Is that okay or should I substitute it with something else?”)

            1. Texan In Exile*

              This. I usually use (cheaper than butter) lard to grease the pan for making brownies, but for vegetarian friends, I use butter.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Asking the recipient is key. A former workplace of mine did Secret Santas and ahead of time we compiled a list of likes/dislikes so the gift givers would know what to avoid. It’s SO EASY as a vegan to simply say, “No animal products whatsoever, which means no meat, dairy, fish, eggs, honey, no leather, wool, down, angora,” etc. And as others pointed out below, every vegan is different and some of them are only vegan WRT their diet whereas others are full-on don’t use any animal products whatsoever. I have a dear vegan friend (the first vegan I ever knew, lol) who used to be fine with honey and then learned more about honey production and decided to stop eating it anymore.

        I have mad respect for hard-core vegans – it’s such a difficult way to live. But they are also very, very used to explaining it to people, so it’s really on Marie and the rest of the office that they didn’t think to ask Liz at some point what her own veganism entails. And after THREE years? I’m surprised Liz hasn’t mentioned it at all, which again leads me to believe that Marie is more at fault here because it seems likely that Liz has mentioned it a lot and Marie hasn’t paid attention.

        1. stratospherica*

          I also respect hard-core vegans (and really people with any dietary restriction) too! I recently went to New Zealand and wanted to get a treat for a vegan friend, and even for a country that has a comparatively high instance of vegan products, it was really difficult to find something for her. Experiencing that once was a struggle – I imagine doing it every day, particularly where I live where there are very few vegans, must become exhausting.

        2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          The trope that you always know when someone’s a vegan because they’ll tell you is just not true. Nobody knows about my diet, I don’t talk about it unless specifically asked, and I always bring food when invited to dinner, to be sure of being able to eat something. I’m far from the only one, there’s another in a zero waste group I’m in, and I’m the only one who ever noticed that she doesn’t touch the meat and cheese.

    2. Nekussa*

      I wonder if she was confused by products that claim to be “vegan leather”, which is just a rebranding of pleather (which is plastic).

        2. I Have RBF*

          That I would be interested in. To me, pleather (plastic) is less sustainable that cowhide. Also, with the beef that gets produced in this country, using the hide as well means using even more of the animal, rather than making more plastic out of oil.

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            Yeah, I’m not vegan, but prefer to consider sustainability and processing in my purchasing, which means I lean toward natural products and long-lasting ones. So it’s a pet peeve of mine when I see, say, boots advertised as “leather” than say in small print that they’re actually “vegan leather”. I don’t want plastic – no slight to those who do, but creating the confusion helps nobody!

          2. Rose*

            Yeah, it’s not always as simple as “animal products are worse for the environment.” I mentioned this above, but I have a formerly-vegan friend who wore leather even when they were vegan (thrifted or recycled whenever possible, but still). Their rationale was that real leather usually lasts way longer than fake leather, so it doesn’t need to be thrown out and replaced nearly as often. The leather industry may not be great for the environment, but neither is filling up our landfills with plastic.

            My friend was vegan primarily for environmental reasons, though, so a vegan whose main concern is animal welfare would probably come down differently on this issue – which is also fine!

        4. stratospherica*

          I’ve looked into plant-based vegan leather before, but it seems like a lot of it still has some kind of polyurethane as a coating or key ingredient, unfortunately. That’s why I still go for real leather with vegetable tanning methods.

    3. Frenchman Ben*

      Exactly; I feel like after two mistakes, you don’t just rely on one coworker, you do some research to see what gifts are and aren’t appropriate for vegans. There are multiple websites and forums where she could ask other vegans for ideas, too.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I agree. I have friends who keep kosher and I’ve learned that not all kosher is the same. I asked them specifically for the symbols to look for that work FOR THEM and then only get those things so that when their kids visit my home, there’s always something appropriate for them to eat. Marie needed to talk to Lisa (with sincere apology) after the first mistake and then make a sincere effort based on *Lisa’s* information not to do that again. At this point a gift card to somewhere generic would be less problematic. Even if it’s not a deliberate slight, at this point it’s thoughtless.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it falls under “you don’t know what you don’t know” so it wouldn’t have even occurred to her to look it up. A lot of people think vegan just means no meat and no dairy and don’t realize it goes further than that (a lot of people don’t even realize it includes eggs or think “no dairy” means “no obvious milk products” without thinking about things like whey). That’s not to say she shouldn’t have gone out of her way to get it right after the first mistake, but a lot of people genuinely are clueless on this. That said, not checking after the second mistake? It’s hard to excuse that.

      1. Artemesia*

        Honey. I give her that. Most people are not aware. But you screw up twice and then give her a box of meat and cheese. That is hard to excuse as an accident. I am not sure I even believe it. Is Marie a passive aggressive drama queen in other ways around the office?

        1. Anonys*

          The meat thing was a genuine accident/mix up that was easily remedied, she only gave her a gift containing cheese toppings

          1. duinath*

            We don’t actually know that, though. We know that Marie wrapped the gifts, we know Marie labeled the gifts, and we know she *says* she labeled them wrong by accident.

            Just like she says buying a vegan coworker non vegan gifts three years in a row was an accident.

            I’m not saying it wasn’t. Maybe it was. But I’m not surprised the “it was a mistake” is wearing thin at this point.

            LBR, pulling this and then saying “oh no I didn’t mean to” is classic mean girl. Doesn’t mean Marie is a mean girl, but after three years of this I wouldn’t be taking her at her word anymore.

            1. ShanShan*

              This is the vibe I’m getting as well. A lot of people hate vegans and are looking for opportunities to quietly annoy them without getting in trouble. Four mistakes in three years is a lot to happen by accident in the context of a group that is so often harassed.

              1. knitted feet*

                Yeah, I suspect this is where Liz’s head is at. There really are people – way too many people – who will deliberately mess with you if you have specific restrictions, whether that’s vegetarian/vegan/food allergies or whatever else. Some will wield plausible deniability, some are blatant about it. I think LW is probably right that Marie genuinely is clueless rather than malicious, but after a certain point, I can understand how the suspicion would creep in.

              2. Xanna*

                And then like this letter, be hyper viligilent and ready to judge any reaction said vegan to the needling, and run with it as confirmation bias that vegans are “so demanding and crazy omg I was just trying to be NIcE how could I have known cheese powder isn’t a good gift for a vegan :(“

            2. HBJ*

              Mis-wrapping/labelings gifts is so easy to do. Goodness, I did it twice with my own kids just this year!

              1. duinath*

                Yeah, that’s the thing with this whole letter, isn’t it. It’s the pattern that is the problem.

                If the non-vegan gifts happened once, or the wrong label happened without all the other stuff, no one would think anything of it.

                But she just …keeps doing this. Over and over again.

                I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the context of all the other mistakes, Liz saw the sausage as a serious escalation. “Oh it was a mistake, I actually got you cheese” isn’t exactly a great defense, either.

                1. A Cita*

                  And the cheese, if truly an accident, is just straight up lazy. There may not be bad intention, but there doesn’t seem to be good intention either.

          2. Artemesia*

            I don’t believe that someone who has twice offended a colleague wtih non vegan gifts ‘accidentally’ wrapped up the meat box. And of course the popcorn involved a cheese topping. At worst it is malicious; at best it is ‘oh this is just so complicated, these vegans are so hard to accommodate.’

      2. Observer*

        A lot of people think vegan just means no meat and no dairy and don’t realize it goes further than that

        Yeah. And for the third gift – after she had messed up *twice*, she got *DAIRY* for the vegan coworker. Keep in mind that the set included *cheese* seasoning, so we’re not talking about hidden dairy, like whey.

        That said, not checking after the second mistake? It’s hard to excuse that.

        That’s just the cherry on the cake, imo.

      3. duinath*

        I find it very surprising that she didn’t check after the first mistake. I also think the leather thing is fairly well known, but even if it isn’t she should have done a google. Doing this three times in a row, the exact same mistake, I gotta say “thoughtless” is the best case scenario.

        LW, I would encourage you strongly to stay out of this. If you encourage them to mend fences, the risk is making Liz feel like Marie is not just bullying her, but turning the rest of the office against her.

        They do not have to be friends. Not being friends is a natural consequence of Marie’s actions.

      4. A Book about Metals*

        Yes, but taking LW at their word that they do think it’s unintentional, don’t you think talking to the manager and accusing Marie of bullying is a pretty severe escalation?

        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          I don’t think the commenting rules mean we have to take the LW’s opinion as an incontrovertible fact, only that we should believe that the LW believes that. Liz is not bound by other people’s interpretation of Marie’s motives (and honestly, not saying this about this situation or the LW, but it is very common when someone stands up for themselves for others to dismiss it). I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to think that Marie is being willfully obtuse.

          1. A Book about Metals*

            I guess I just don’t see this as bullying. To me that term means something much more serious and impactful than this

        2. HB*

          No, because Liz *feeling* bullied is an effect that isn’t dependent on Marie *intending* to bully her.

          Liz could *completely* believe Marie when she says “I didn’t know” and still feel bullied. To put it in a legal context… intent can transfer. So if you throw a baseball and it goes through a window, you can’t argue that you didn’t intend to break the window because you *did* intend to throw the baseball in the same vicinity as a bunch of windows. Now, maybe the first time it happened you didn’t realize you were near any windows. And the second time it happened, you thought you had better aim, but the third time it happens? Stop throwing the baseball unless you *know you’re not going to hit a window*.

          And to push this further… pretend that the third time you hit the window, you had actually made significant efforts to *not* hit it. You went into an open field where there were no windows in sight… but you threw the ball and a pelican appeared out of nowhere, swallowing the ball and then traveling to a nearby town to drop it on someone’s windshield. In that case… you can probably still chalk it up to an accident. But “I asked someone for a vegan snack and they said popcorn so I bought some popcorn *without actually investigating anything about the popcorn*” isn’t an accident. You intentionally bought popcorn and patted yourself on the back thinking you’d finally thrown the ball in the opposite direction without checking to see if there windows in the opposite direction too. Eventually ignorance becomes intentional and *that’s* why it’s bullying. It’s just *fixable* bullying because it’s not coming from a place of ill will (at the moment).

          1. MaxPower*

            The phrase that’s been used a lot in recent years is intent vs. impact.
            Marie’s intent might have been good, but the impact on Liz was that she got gifts that she specifically couldn’t use over and over again.
            It’s not like Marie got her a vegan cheesy popcorn but Liz would have preferred vegan carmel corn (and Marie would have no way to know this). This isn’t Liz being picky, this is Marie repeatedly buying a gift that’s wholly inappropriate for Liz, and that makes Liz feel like it’s targeted.

            1. A Book about Metals*

              I get intent vs impact – i just don’t see a once a year thoughtless gift, absent any other incidents, as bullying. Maybe it’s just semantics but I always think of bullying as something far more severe than this

              1. NotVegan*

                I think it gets into the fact that for many people, being vegan is a seriously held ethical and spiritual belief. So it’s not “oh it’s a bad gift, and yeah, she should’ve thought about it more, but it’s not a big deal” it’s more “She is repeatedly violating my ethical boundaries and making no effort to fix it.” Someone else in a different thread likened it to gifting ham to someone who keeps kosher. Over and over again. Being vegan doesn’t quite have the same religious freedom protections, but I think it’s understandable that after several years of “oops, forgot” it would feel a bit like religious persecution.

              2. ShanShan*

                The whole point of intent vs. impact is that outsiders don’t get to decide how severe the impact of something is on the person who is affected.

                In other words: I accept that this doesn’t raise to the level of bullying for you, but it does for Liz, and in the calculus of intent vs. impact, that matters more.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              I think that the context of how the gift is given/received is probably also feeding into this. At least in the US, gift giving is a public ritual where the recipient is being judged on reacting “correctly” to the gift; Liz has had to be gracious, forgiving and smooth things over in her work relationship with Marie, regardless of her real feelings about receiving things that she not only couldn’t use but which may have offended or disgusted her.

        3. Kay*

          I mean – if I was lactose intolerant and my co-worker gave me 4 “oopsies” I might be feeling “WTF!?!?” enough to throw out a bullying comment!

          At a certain point it becomes absurd in its carelessness and just because its “unintentional” doesn’t mean it is acceptable.

        4. Observer*

          but taking LW at their word that they do think it’s unintentional, don’t you think talking to the manager and accusing Marie of bullying is a pretty severe escalation?

          Why? Why is the assessment of the LW, who is not the one who is a target, outweigh the assessment of the actual target?

            1. lanfy*

              Are you assuming that OP is right that it’s unintentional?

              Or do you think that even if it were intentional, it still wouldn’t be bullying?

      5. Wendy Darling*

        Honestly the best case scenario here, after three screwups in a row, is that Marie not only doesn’t know but also doesn’t really care to find out.

        After the second mistake I’d be so mortified that I’d either be sitting around googling “is THING vegan” for every component of my gift or switch to making a small charitable donation in each coworker’s name in lieu of gifts.

      6. Despachito*

        At this point, it seems that a non-work activity interferes with the atmosphere at work a lot more than it should. I can imagine Marie is willing to do SOME investigation but I wouldn’t dream of her requiring it to be so thorough.

        I don’t understand why so many people are so hard on Marie. It is WORK, not family, and it is much more likely people would get something they can’t use. Liz should be gracious, appreciate the effort and quietly regift a gift she cannot use, and that should be the end of it. Any drama is unwanted and inappropriate for work. Marie didn’t prank Liz , was not mean, and I would not consider it even thoughtless. She should be left alone.

        1. Kay*

          The mental gymnastics needed to say Marie wasn’t thoughtless is just too much. This line of thinking is similar to ordering a plain lettuce salad for the office lunch and patting yourself on the back for accommodating the vegan – oh, and the plain lettuce salad is covered in bleu cheese dressing, which can just be wiped off of course. /s

          1. Pescadero*

            Marie was thoughtless.

            Thing is – Marie shouldn’t ever have to care about being thoughtless about gifts for her co-workers, because she doesn’t owe them that thought.

            1. biobotb*

              Well then she shouldn’t be participating in gift exchanges if she doesn’t want to think about her coworkers’ gift preferences. Agreeing to participate in the exchange is signing on to care about your coworkers at least a little bit.

                1. lanfy*

                  But having to put some actual thought into the gifts is part of that calculus.

                  How much political capital is she risking by messing up a fourth time; especially immediately after the third was so egregious?

                2. Elsajeni*

                  I find it hard to imagine a situation where opting out or getting generic, “safe” gifts (“oh, a mug with a Starbucks gift card inside! just like last year! and the year before!”) for everyone costs more political capital than participating in the gift exchange, going to the trouble of selecting individual and personalized gifts, but not paying enough attention to identify that cheese is not vegan.

          2. moql*

            We had someone do this at our office. She proposed a potluck, but then started complaining that it would be too hard to include the vegan. We assigned her a salad with oil and vinegar and told her she should be good as long as she put any toppings on the side for people to add their own. She brought iceberg lettuce and ranch, then complained some more that vegans were tOo ComPliCaTed. It felt performative and pointed and I’m betting Marie is giving off these vibes.

          3. A Cita*

            That’s actually happened to me, for an off-site whole day work retreat. Not vegan, but vegetarian. Whole day catered retreat and admin got me 1 plain lettuce salad and didn’t understand why I was upset.

          4. Nodramalama*

            But there’s a world of difference between Marie is a thoughtless and bad gift giver, and Marie is acting maliciously to the extent that she purposefully mislabelled the gifts, as some have said might have happened.

            1. lanfy*

              Intent is invisible.

              All that’s visible here is that Marie has now given a vegan non-vegan items four times, the fourth as a replacement for a particularly egregiously non-vegan item.

              Those optics aren’t great.

        2. knitted feet*

          It doesn’t have to be thorough if Marie just looks up ‘”vegan gifts”. It sounds like what she/you are envisaging is to think of a gift first and then spend hours trawling for a vegan version of it, obsessing over ingredients etc. etc. When really, at this point, she just needs to either forget food completely and get the poor woman a book or something, or she needs to find something marketed as vegan. Which, again, takes five minutes on Google.

          Yeah, a work gift is unlikely to be as perfect as the gift lovingly chosen by someone who’s known you all your life. But repeatedly choosing things that you KNOW the person avoids for reasons of personal ethics? Come on. That’s thoughtless and then some.

        3. Valancy Stirling*

          You say Liz should appreciate the effort. What effort? Marie doesn’t seem to have put in any effort at all.

        4. AM*

          Agreed. People are do all sorts of mental gymnastics, assuming intentions and deviousness in Marie that is in no way reflected in OP’s letter. They seem to forget that an entire YEAR passed between each little flub.

      7. Escape from Corporate Management*

        By gift #3, Marie should be buying Liz a book (not leather bound!). Or a gift card. Or any of the millions of items that don’t involve food or animal products.

        Either Marie is frightening clueless or Liz is right in that she’s trying to make a point. OP, which is it?

    5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Marie is really not trying to be thoughtful. It may or may not be bullying but at this time is thoughtlessness. I mean I would not ask a coworker what a good vegan snack was — unless that person were also vegan. You go to the Vegans, they aren’t hard to find. Or you use google. But hey I’ll get popcorn WITH seasonings is not really thinking it through.

      1. Harper the Other One*

        Yeah, this was my thought too. When the theme is snacks and PARTICULARLY when you’ve made mistakes about gif rain the past, it would be so obvious to get an explicitly labeled vegan snack. She may in fact just be thoughtless but it is an extreme level of thoughtlessness at this point IMO, and deserving of a bit of social awkwardness as a result.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      For the first two, I can really see that you don’t know what you don’t know. Like, in year two she learned from year one and avoided food and went with clothing and something the pet could use, and didn’t realize there were also pitfalls here.

      However, after messing up two years in a row, you really have to be reading ingredients and googling to double check all your assumptions.

      I read a lot of labels to account for family member allergies, and “we added all things buttery and cheesy” is in fact a pitfall with popcorn. Roast nuts would have worked great here–it’s a snack, it’s vegan, it’s pretty shelf-stable.

      1. amoeba*

        Huh? Never heard of that, do you have more information?

        I mean, I know they’re not exactly sustainable so sure, some ethical vegans might also avoid them for that reason, but how are animals involved?

      2. Sarah*

        Almonds aren’t vegan? I would have had no idea.

        (In this case, I probably would have given something completely not food-related. I might have even given a gift card – sure, some people don’t like giving gift cards because they seem more impersonal. However, after the first incident, I’d much rather err on the side of giving a gift card than unintentionally offending my co-worker again.)

      3. Nack*

        Roasted nuts, yes, but those “candied” nuts are sometimes made with egg white! I could see how Marie could mess this one up too! But I guess this sums up your post – you don’t know what you don’t know, and you better read the label CAREFULLY.

        1. Dawn*

          Something that can be very handy is that just like kosher and halal products, there are vegan-certifying organizations out there.

          It does make the product more expensive (vegan tax!) but when you see that big V on the package, you know it’s safe, and it’s pretty easy to look for. And all you really have to do there is search online for “how do I know a product is vegan?”

      4. Wendy Darling*

        If this wasn’t the latest in a series of unforced errors I’d be inclined to assume Marie had the same thought I sometimes do, which is that “cheese flavoring” has strayed so far from the realm of food that it barely warrants consideration because it’s probably made of something like nutritional yeast and garlic powder.

        It turns out I’m WRONG and usually it is in fact made of cheese and surprisingly enough cheetos aren’t even vegetarian if you’re being strict about your vegetarianism. But it’s not a totally bonkers mistake to make… if you have not been continually making that same mistake for the last several years.

        1. Dawn*

          Nutritional yeast is wildly more expensive than milk solids lol, at least in North America where ridiculous dairy subsidies keep milk production extremely excessive.

          You can thank the dairy lobbies in Canada and America for that one. Dairy production in both nations enjoys some truly wild government benefits.

          1. Wendy Darling*

            Yeah, when I found out it was made of real cheese I was like, huh, real cheese must be cheaper! Like, I know Cheetos aren’t made of real cheese because they’re super concerned with the authenticity of the cheese flavor…

            Not surprised that there are government benefits at ALL.

        2. ClinicalSnark*

          My thought was the shaker looked like ‘butter flavouring’ which often is made with oils and not diary. Those huge vats of ‘butter’ at the movie theatre is almost always an oil based product (and with a google search several major suppliers are vegan).

        3. MigraineMonth*

          Shelf-stable bacon pieces and bacon flavoring, by contrast, are usually vegan (and kosher).

        4. ShadowShrugged*

          In the spirit of learning and sharing!
          Vegetarian and Vegan are not the same thing. In essence:
          Vegan: no animal products at all, up to and including clothing.
          Vegetarian: no meat products. Dairy and eggs typically ok. Known as “lacto-ovo vegetarians” to some.

          Cheetos contain no meat, and are on the OK list for most vegetarians.

          Cheetos contain cheese and are on the not-ok-at-all list for most vegans.

          As we’ve learned from this post, there are variations in each based on personal preference. For example, I eat poultry, but when I am RSVPing for events, I label myself vegetarian. It’s the easiest shorthand.

      5. I Have RBF*

        See, a theme of “snacks” would make it easy. While lots of people dunk on Amazon, it does have the advantage of being able to find stuff that may not be in local shops. Doing a search on “vegan snacks” yields lots of results, and then you could always look for those items in your local stores.

    7. What_the_What*

      Wait. What? Seriously? I’d have thought alcohol was vegan! Learned something new today. I’m fascinated; what aspect of it violates veganism? Does it have to do with fertilzation of the grapes? That’s the only thing I can think of… Then again other than “grapes/fermentation” I know nothing of how wine (or any other alcohol) is made. *Shrug*

      1. Snubble*

        A lot of wines have a clarification step that uses animal products to precipitate out the cloudiness – fish based, I think, a lot of the time.

        1. amoeba*

          I thought it’s gelatin?

          (However, there’s tons of vegan wines available – just make sure to check when you go shopping! A good wine shop should certainly be able to tell you. And often it’s also stated on the bottle!)

            1. Silver Robin*

              most gelatin is actually pork, by my understanding (still an animal product, but now also not kosher, which is why I know because I have to check for it!)

                1. Silver Robin*

                  I usually look for pectin (plant based) or fish gelatin (because it can go with anything as far as kashrut is concerned) but if the package just says “gelatin” then I avoid it. Though good to know about the UK! Will keep it in mind should I visit again.

            2. Botanist*

              and not hooves, it’s made from connective tissue. Keratin (hooves and fingernails) doesn’t have the elastic properties necessary.

            3. amoeba*

              Huh? Yes, I know gelatin isn’t vegan, didn’t write anything to contradict that? I just wasn’t aware fish were involved; I thought the problem was gelatin.

          2. Gliff*

            It can be – including isinglass which is gelatin from fish bladders. Lots of other fining materials used in wind production are also animal based – bone marrow, chitin, casein and others.

            1. Audrey Puffins*

              Some commercial orange juice is produced with isinglass too, it is MINDBLOWING how many products you’ll discover aren’t vegan once you start digging!

              1. MigraineMonth*

                Yeah, I was thinking of trying Veganuary last year and was trying to figure out which of the foods in my pantry were vegan. (I’m pescatarian, but I had already switched to soy milk and figured it wouldn’t be that big a change.)

                I made the mistake of using one of the Serious Vegan sites and discovered that practically everything I was eating might have been processed with animal products, from the sugar down to the whole oranges in my fruit bowl. Ugh.

                2. MigraineMonth*

                  @BellaStella – Many citrus fruits have wax–which may or may not contain beeswax–applied to the outside of the peel.

          3. Ina Lummick*

            fish are definetly used, so can milk and egg.

            (not sure on US alcohol labelling laws but EU/UK regs require allergens to be declared on alcoholic products, which covers milk/eggs/fish)

        2. T.N.H*

          Yes, this is it! Egg whites also in addition to the others listed below. That being said, you can absolutely find vegan wine, but you need to know what to look for (I would not trust a wine shop, but I’m a sommelier and in my experience they have no idea what they’re talking about).

          I’m sure Alison doesn’t want to derail on this, but it just goes to show that you really have to research what is and is not vegan.

        3. As7k*

          Isinglass is made from the ground swim bladders of fish and is used in the final filtration (fining) of many wines.

        4. What_the_What*

          *gag* @ the thought of fishyness in my wine! Thanks for the clarity though now I’ll never be able to forget it lol

      2. Rose*

        It really depends on the person. Some vegans just don’t eat meat or dairy, others are much stricter. Best to ask the recipient or err on the side of caution if you can’t.

      3. bamcheeks*

        It’s not inherent to wine making, but most industrial wine-making is clarified or preserved using non-vegan processes.

      4. Dave the Cat*

        A lot of beer and wine is filtered with animal products (egg whites, gelatin, or isinglass) and it’s not an ingredient per se so even if they chose to list ingredients on the label it wouldn’t be listed. But a lot of it is filtered with other things, or unfiltered, so you never really know without a lot of research (also some beer is Milk Stout or brewed with lactose, or even with meat, but those would be on the label as a selling point; also mead is honey based). Hard alcohol is vegan unless it’s a weird one like vodka made from milk. As a long-time vegan, I do drink wine of unknown status and I typically don’t investigate. Other vegans I know are the same.

        1. Wayward Sun*

          There are also beer brands that specifically advertise that they’re vegan. It depends on the brewery and what process they use for that specific beer.

      5. Wendy Darling*

        The dietary restriction that does my head in is that most oatmeal is not vegan and it’s because oats are usually grown around wheat so unless the oats are sourced from a special gluten-free oat farm they’re cross-contaminated in the field before they’re even harvested!

        It was a bummer when I made special oat-based cookies for a gluten-free neighbor only to find out he couldn’t eat them. (Alas, I had to eat them myself. They were delicious.) And then I also learned that anything cooked in my gluten-friendly kitchen with my hopelessly contaminated equipment wouldn’t be suitable for people who can’t deal with cross-contamination, so now if I want to make someone a food gift I just ask first.

        2. LL*

          Gluten-free and vegan are different things with different restrictions. Oats and wheat are both vegan, but if there’s something added to the oatmeal before it hits store shelves (like flavoring or whatever) the final product might not be vegan.

        3. AM*

          Gluten-free and vegan are not the same thing… Google, as mentioned by countless commenters in this thread, is your friend.

          1. Dahlia*

            They made a typo, very clearly. I think we can give them the grace where clearly there was a typo to assume it was a typo.

    8. Wilbur*

      I don’t think all vegans are universally against honey. I’ve met one or two who only source from local beekeepers that have a strong focus on colony welfare.

      1. Ann Onymous*

        While it’s true that not all vegans avoid honey, enough do that honey is probably not a good choice of gift for a vegan unless you already know for sure they consume honey.

      2. Dawn*

        Speaking as a vegan who does consume honey, it’s a huge, messy debate within the community. I’m an ecological vegan and my position is that more bees (even invasive European Honey Bees) are good for the planet, and therefore, fine to support. In general though, we can assume that when people follow the “no animal products” diet, you should probably avoid all animal products unless explicitly informed otherwise.

        1. Annika Hansen*

          I am part of our my community’s vegan Facebook group. I am a non-strict vegetarian, but the vegan community is much more active than the vegetarian community. I just want to know if there are any good meals at local restaurants. There was a huge blow-up about whether vegans should eat honey. It was ugly. The two other topics that are now forbidden are horseback riding and eggs from backyard chickens. I had never even thought about horseback riding being considered non-vegan.

          1. Dawn*

            I would probably continue to avoid backyard eggs for myself (mostly because I’m already used to substituting eggs in everything) but I think that as long as you’re not supplementing your chickens’ diet with feed unless absolutely necessary they’re ethical, the same way fur combed from your cat would be.

        2. FricketyFrack*

          I’ve never really landed solidly on either side of the honey debate. My attitude is mostly, “I won’t seek it out, but if I need to eat and my only viable option has honey, I’ll eat it.” It’s an interesting debate but I do think people get waaaay too aggressive about it. There’s definitely a subset of vegans who think they’re the moral authority and anyone not living up to their standards might as well be running a slaughterhouse. I’m just happy when anyone shows interest in reducing their animal consumption.

        3. Sarah With an H*

          I love honey (I’m vegetarian, not vegan), but buy local from small farms. What I find really interesting is that in debate about honey I hardly ever see discussion about the agriculture has on bees (I didn’t know about this for a long time and I assume most people don’t). Monocultures like large almond groves have to ship in bees to fertilize their trees; since all the plants in a grove flower at the same time pollinators can’t survive there year round. So there’s a whole industry of bees that are moved around the country (in the US anyway) from monocrop to monocrop. It’s super stressful on bees and a factor in declining populations.

          1. Anxious autistic*

            There’s also the impact those invasive bees have on native bee populations. Honey bees are not native to the Americas, and there’s a growing body of research indicating that as generalists they tend to displace specialist native bees, who are more efficient at pollinating their flowers but can’t get to the nectar before the imported honey bees do.

            1. Sarah With an H*

              I didn’t know that until these comments! know its kinda off topic but I’m glad it came up, I’m gonna have to read more about it

      3. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Vegans aren’t necessarily universally against leather, either! I know a few who will wear leather shoes because they last longer / can be repaired more easily than a lot of non-vegan alternatives, which in the long run is better for the environment (if that’s the reason they’re vegan).

        1. Dawn*

          I’m not planning to seek out new leather goods (because I think that buying new animal products encourages increased animal farming, which is what I’m trying to prevent) but I continue to wear my existing leather jacket/shoes because it would be more wasteful of me to discard them when I already own them.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I’d definitely be avoiding any snacks. I know she tried that the second time, but…I wouldn’t go back to them again after that because they seem the easiest to mess up with.

          1. Freya*

            This. There’s this vegan chocolate available around here that is also coconut free but still weirdly tastes like coconut is a main ingredient. My brain says ‘not food’ because things that are normally dairy-based should not taste like they’re based on something else, even if they have none of that other thing in (to be clear, I have the same problem with coconut-based icecream, because my brain expects icecream to taste like dairy is in it. Ice blocks and gelati are fine, because they’re not supposed to taste like dairy products, but dairy-free normally-dairy products are Not Food)

        2. MaxPower*

          Food gifts specifically labeled as vegan are actually better gifts than avoiding food, potentially. That way you avoid any of the non-food things that are potentially problematic (and there are a bunch), like the dog collar.

          I’ve never met a vegan who would be offended by receiving something explicitly labeled vegan, even if their vegan interpretation was significantly more conservative than the norm.

    11. ThatGirl*

      Honey is divisive among vegans; I know a few who are fine with it and others who are very much against it. But the real key here is to a) know your audience and b) be very thoughtful.

    12. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

      Neither are figs! Also, most vegans stay away from palm oil because of the environmental concerns. Google is definitely Marie’s friend right now.
      I am a little worried for Marie and Liz right now…I hope Marie can smooth this over.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        That’s actually not true of most commercially available varieties of figs, if you’re talking about the wasp thing (and even then, there’s not actually any wasp left in the fig by the time you’re eating it, and it’s a natural pollination/life cycle phenonmenon, so some vegans are fine with eating even those varieties)

    13. LCH*

      i went to a vegan restaurant in my early 20s (like 2002ish) and asked for honey. eek! i totally did not know it counted. i also didn’t know about gummy bears 10 years later because i had no idea of their ingredients. now i do!

      leather does seem more obvious and i would probably err on the side of caution with that.

    14. Quinalla*

      Agree, the first one I can forgive, but yes just google after that? Or stop getting the vegan coworker any food or animal products to be safe? Or just talk to her and say “Hey I was thinking about this, but didn’t want to mess up again, is this ok?” I know some are very keen on surprises for gifts, but with so many times giving nasty surprises, it’s time to stop.

      I do agree that the vegan coworker is overreacting a bit here unless there is more to the coworker relationships we aware of.

      Agreed with other that this tradition is A LOT. I would be prepared to stop it when you get a new team member someday. I would not be cool with it myself.

    15. Brain Sturgeon*

      I think your P.S. proves there’s a ton about veganism that a not vegan probably wouldn’t know and would never think to ask about or even Google.

  3. Nekussa*

    I think the suggestion of going to a vegan bakery is the right one. Don’t try to figure it out yourself, go to the experts who will do it right.

    1. KHB*

      There are so many companies that make/sell products that are specifically marked as vegan. Most people probably aren’t aware of them if they haven’t had reason to shop for vegans (themselves or others), but somebody needs to make Marie aware of them now.

      And oh, how I wish you all could go back in time and give Marie some better advice when she was asking “What’s a vegan snack?” Even just googling “vegan snacks” turns up so many results.

      1. MaxPower*

        Almost every grocery store has a section of the store that sells “natural foods”. If you go to that section you’ll find dozens of products, including tons of snack foods, explicitly labeled vegan. I think you’d have to be a time traveller from 1985 not to be aware that you can buy vegan treats easily. If you’ve ever walked around any store that sells groceries you’d know that vegan foods are abundant.

    8. Lizzay*

      Ha!

      Seriously, though, a friend of mine’s sister was vegetarian (not full vegan, I don’t think) and went to visit extended family in Korea & when she said she was vegetarian, her aunt/uncle/relative said “it’s ok, I’ll make chicken”.

    2. mango chiffon*

      I’m going with an everyone sucks here. Liz is not off the hook for the way she is acting, imo.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Three years in a row over something that could be solved with a minor Google search? She’s allowed to be peeved. Marie is either as thick as a brick or doesn’t think she should have to care.

        1. mango chiffon*

          She’s allowed to be peeved and upset, but I think going to say that it’s bullying is a bit too far. I grew up with certain food limitations because of the religion I grew up with and yes it is frustrating to get things that had the foods I couldn’t eat, but I also grew up in white midwest and people really were that thick about religious and cultural differences. Still happens even today when my brother’s mother in law made beef cocktail franks as part of a meal and we had to skip that.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            I don’t think it’s as much too far as being given a series of gifts that are way, way out of line.

          2. Jamie Starr*

            I also grew up in white midwest and people really were that thick about religious and cultural differences…

            This tracks. I, too, grew up in the white (rural) midwest and have been a vegetarian for 25+ years. When visiting, I ask if something is vegetarian and they think it is, even if it’s made with chicken stock or is seafood/fish.

            There’s all sorts of tricky stuff that seems innocuous – Worcestershire sauce has anchovies; gummy bears or Jello made with gelatin, etc. And this is just vegetarian. Vegan is even trickier. To me, leather seems pretty obviously Not Vegan. Unless she thought Liz was only vegan with regards to foods. But then cheese the next year? Marie needs to learn how to Google.

            1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

              After the first two, I stop giving Marie the benefit of the doubt. Plenty of food products SAY vegan on the packaging. She could find one.

            2. Wayward Sun*

              And to make it even trickier, some vegetarians are less strict than others about things with trace amounts of animal products.

            3. Lemons*

              Can confirm! On a roadtrip in the rural midwest, my co-travelers wanted to stop at a jerky outlet. I chilled by the door while they perused. The nice Midwesterners behind the counter noticed I wasn’t engaged and were like “can we get you any samples, tell you any info about our jerky?” I said no thanks, I’m a vegetarian, and it was like a cartoon record scratch happened. They were totally thrown for a loop, and one was like “…so, what do you eat?” (thinks for a while) “…potatoes?”

              They were probably high schoolers, it was pretty adorable tbh — I might have been the first vegetarian they ever met!

          3. bamcheeks*

            what is a beef cocktail? I am trying to assume it’s not just a drink with beef in it whilst also politely allowing for the possibility that it is a drink with beef in it and keeping an open mind.

            1. mango chiffon*

              cocktail franks! so they’re mini hot dogs made of beef in this case. She could have gotten turkey ones (and has in the past) but she didn’t this time.

              1. bamcheeks*

                OH, OK, mini hotdogs sounds cute and much less alarming! (I had no idea sausages could be called franks though!)

                1. Lexi Vipond*

                  Short for frankenfurter because they’re small? I kind of figured it out, but it is a very unfamiliar way of describing it!

              2. Galloping Possum*

                Wedding weenies is what we call them around here. They are a staple at most parties and celebrations here.

            2. Smithy*

              “Cocktail franks” is a term associated with a small sausage – a beef cocktail frank would imply all (or mostly beef) vs also containing pork or other meats.

            3. Happy meal with extra happy*

              Lol, that made me chuckle. The key group of words is “cocktail franks”. They’re the little mini hotdogs.

            4. Lady Lessa*

              To play on words, some friends had a “Beet” martini at this ethnic restaurant. I didn’t because I am more of a beer drinker vs cocktails.

          4. Eldritch Office Worker*

            As it says in the response, there might be more context to their relationship that makes it feel more deliberate. It sounds like Liz tried to be gracious the first couple of times.

          5. Snarkastic*

            Yes, I think it’s fair to be annoyed, but I wouldn’t have made a thing about it. I mean, this is why co-workers shouldn’t get each other gifts, anyway. Let’s just all be friendly, not resent each other, and then go home.

          6. sb51*

            Eh, I also grew up ethically/religiously-but-not-in-an-organized-way vegetarian in the white midwest, and there was a LOT of bullying, both subtle and not. And it was distinctly different from the cluelessness (which was also rampant). If Liz is getting a passive-aggressive intentional vibe off the interactions, she may well be right.

          7. Parakeet*

            Yeah, bullying is a very serious accusation and people should not make it wantonly. It’s very reasonable to be peeved. Unless there’s something else going on, calling an unsuitable gift from one person once a year “bullying” is a stretch.

        2. Lucy P*

          I think some people really just don’t get it, because it’s not their lifestyle and they don’t know anyone else with that lifestyle.

          We have a lacto-vegetarian in our office, who made that choice due to religion. One of the department assistants was in charge of planning the holiday parties. They were instructed to make sure there was suitable food for coworker. We explained that not only should it not have meat, but shouldn’t have eggs either. In greater detail, we made them confirm that the lasagna, lasagna noodles and ice cream would not be made with eggs.

          After that, we had a pot luck one year. Assistant happily explained to the lacto-vegetarian that their potato salad was safe to eat because they left the eggs out of it. It was just potatoes and mayonnaise. Assistant didn’t think about what the mayo was made from.

          1. Martin Blackwood*

            My sister and my nephew both have/had egg allergies (he did that desensitivization thing). mayo is One Of Those Things and also Toppings Dont Count. i once bought a dessert for my sister that had a bit of merengue drizzled on top. also, more ice creams than you might expect!

        3. boof*

          I got to say each one is a different type of mistake and I could easily entirely chalk up to just having Zero Prior Vegan Experience.

          Bonus points if next year it’s something red (with carmine)

          (things I probably mostly know because I lived a while with a hardcore vegan )

          I think ideally just… no more gifts, or if that’s not feasible, Marie gets to farm out Liz’s gift to someone who is vegan and reimburse them or something.

      2. Joe*

        What did Liz do wrong? She was gracious about the honey (understandable) and even the leather (less understandable – getting a vegan something made of leather is pretty stupid). Then she received something with cheese. I’d be cold to Marie too.

        1. mango chiffon*

          A lot of people are under the misconception that vegan is just about diet, so I disagree on the leather part. My family are vegetarians, but where we are from, vegetarians mostly don’t eat eggs but eat dairy. This becomes an issue in the US around food because it ends up being in the middle of what people commonly understand as vegetarian vs vegan, and also in my experience a lot of people are really just that bad about understanding details around food limitations unless you give specifics loudly and often. I think Liz is totally fine with being cold to Marie, but I think saying it’s bullying is a bit too far for me personally.

          1. ShanShan*

            A lot of what makes someone a skilled bully is sticking to actions that sound fine on paper.

            It’s a good way to make the person you’re bullying look unreasonable. But they’re not unreasonable, because they’re reacting to the clear intent behind the actions, not the actions.

            The fact that Marie not only doesn’t seem sorry but is frequently and vocally complaining about Liz’s reaction (this making it seem more dramatic than it is) is a clear red flag to me, as someone with a lot of experience with this kind of person.

          2. Pescadero*

            “A lot of people are under the misconception that vegan is just about diet,”

            For some Vegans (a couple of my close friends) – vegan IS just about diet. They wear leather.

            1. Non non non all the way home*

              Are you sure it’s leather? There are vegan alternatives that can look a lot like leather or fur.

              1. Lemons*

                It’s actually a really interesting question to consider! Is it better to buy vegan leather (AKA plastic) which is better for the animal, worse for the environment (considering its production/waste generation), or real leather, which is worse for the animal, better for the environment (more durable/reparable/biodegradable), with potential longer-term environmental benefits due to decreased consumption, which could benefit animals in the long run?

                The answer totally depends on what your idealogical stance is.

        2. Love me, love my cat*

          Totally agree! I think vegans become vegans, in large part, to prevent the slaughter of animals. To give a vegan a gift made of leather seems willfully ignorant. Sure, some vegans wear leather, etc., but why would you chance giving such an inappropriate gift? Seems deliberately obtuse and mean-spirited.

      3. Helewise*

        I agree. Marie should do better, but the commentary seems to be expecting WAY more time investment than a ridiculous work gift exchange warrants. And vegan products aren’t nearly as widely available outside major metros, so it’s not necessarily an easy thing to source.

        1. Ellen N.*

          I had a client who used to send Harry & David pears. They are vegan and delicious. Harry & David ships everywhere.

          A bottle of good olive oil is vegan, widely appreciated and available in many localities.

          1. Dinwar*

            Olive oil is one of the most widely counterfeited foodstuffs, though. It’s nearly impossible to know if the olive oil you’re buying is actually vegan unless you track down the actual source and supply chain. (Somewhat ironically, honey is also on the list of most counterfeited foods.) Too much work for an office gift exchange.

            That’s why I opt for tools. In my line of work it’s pretty universally appreciated (especially 9/16 sockets!), and no reasonable person is going to debate whether or not a hunk of iron is vegan.

        2. Ellen N.*

          I had a client who used to send Harry & David pears. They are vegan and delicious. Harry & David ships everywhere.

          A bottle of good olive oil is vegan, widely appreciated and available in many localities.

        3. Galloping Possum*

          Agree. Especially for comments like “Just find a vegan bakery.” We don’t know where they are. I don’t have any kind of bakery at all within an hours drive of me.

          1. Stealth Droid*

            I just Google searched online vegan bakery and found plenty of options that ship. It’s really not that hard. I say this as someone who has been slighted in numerous office gift exchanges: either put in the effort for your recipient or withdraw from the gift exchange. It really sucks to feel like an afterthought, and certainly doesn’t build team comradery.

        4. Wayward Sun*

          Agreed. If I were Marie I would opt out of the gift exchange in future years. It seems to be a drama factory.

        5. D*

          The gifts don’t need to be food, though. She could buy a bookmark, pen set, coffee mug, bracelet, picture frame, throw pillow, set of coasters, pop socket, or just a gift card somewhere.

          Maybe it’s a lot to think about someone’s dietary restrictions if you’re not used to it, so then… avoid food. And leather. I thought that would be a given, tbh.

          1. ClinicalSnark*

            The throw pillow could even be a land mine if it was made of other animal products (wool, silk, feathers). Or even a picture frame (idk where seashells might land). I think after 3 years of being coworkers with 5 other people, Marie should know something about Lisa to find a suitable gift, but this whole thread has opened by eyes to the gauntlet of vegan gift giving I would fail!

        6. Saturday*

          They are widely available though. Buy some fruit, buy some nuts, skip the food and get something else… etc. There’s no need for it to be some big time investment.

        7. Dahlia*

          I live in the middle of nowhere and we have both fruit and books.

          She doesn’t HAVE to give a food product.

        8. Biff*

          I think there’s an ongoing assumption that vegan means one thing, and that thing is very clear cut, with a few minor differences of opinion. In my experience, that’s not true. There are some big arguments in the community and I’ve also met 90% vegans who still call themselves vegan. If I were Marie I’d probably choose badly out of a combination of being stressed to the max and completely full of dread.

          1. allathian*

            Yeah, my sister is flexivegan. The only thing she never eats is red meat, fowl, and fish. She appreciates it if people bake vegan, but will eat stuff that contains egg and dairy. She also eats honey, her reasoning is that without pollinators everyone, including vegans, would run out of food because some 70 percent of the plant-based stuff we eat depends on them.

      4. Ally McBeal*

        Hard agree here. At this point Marie needs to get her 2025 gift inspected and approved before she wraps it. Preferably by a vegan, or at least someone who has a lot of vegans in their life and would know what to look for. But Liz is looking for personal grievance when sheer incompetence is most likely Marie’s only issue.

      5. Samwise*

        I agree. Marie tried but she’s asking the wrong person — she needs to ask Liz directly. That means Liz’s gift isn’t a surprise, but so what?

        Liz needs to get over herself. Unless Marie is bullying or otherwise unpleasant to Liz the rest of the time, it’s just a mistake.

        Three years in a row — yeah, but it’s only once a year. And yes, I have gotten cloddish gifts multiple years from a single person. Fortunately the gifts were mailed to me, so I didn’t have to worry about my face giving away my dismay. Then I wrote a thank you note and donated the gift to a thrift shop (once I just threw it away). Because either they meant well, in which case, why make a big deal about it? Or they didn’t mean well, in which case why give them the satisfaction of knowing I was annoyed or offended?

      6. Sarah With an H*

        This is mostly where I am, though I think so much depends on context we don’t have. I would definitely give the benefit of the doubt for the first two–honey isn’t meat and isn’t dairy so its entirely reasonable that it’d never occur to Marie that there would even be an issue. The dog collar is more obvious but also isn’t food, and if someone doesn’t ever think to check what something is made out of, I can see it being an honest mistake; I don’t really expect someone to put as much thought into a gift for a coworker as they would for a good friend.
        I am side-eyeing the popcorn toppings a bit, and likely she just didn’t actually put that much effort into it — or it could truly be super passive-aggressive, who knows, but I think that depends on how she acts around Liz the rest of the year.

    3. Frenchman Ben*

      I’m interested in your reasoning; I don’t see Liz as the ass, but there might be an element that’s escaping me.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        I think Alison is right that we need more info about their relationship otherwise. If they genuinely have a good relationship the rest of the year then jumping to “bullying” over the gifts is a lot. But I’d guess that Liz generally gets the vibe that Marie thinks vegans are weird or some such – probably in a way that doesn’t feel reportable but that means the gift issues are just adding to annoyance that’s already there.

        1. KHB*

          But if they did have a genuinely good relationship the rest of the year, I don’t think Liz WOULD jump to “bullying” over the gifts, because I don’t think she’d be feeling bullied. So I strongly suspect that this isn’t just about the gifts – it’s about their whole relationship. Marie has had 3+ years to learn this central thing about her coworker in a “pretty close” office, and she’s chosen not to do that. That’s on her.

          1. Biff*

            I don’t know about you, but if my job included learning about my coworker’s dietary restrictions, and I wasn’t an admin in charge of lunch, or working in a test kitchen, I’d be really concerned about the lack of work/life boundaries.

            1. Jennifer Strange*

              So then don’t give your co-workers gifts? Marie doesn’t have to, it’s not part of her job. If she chooses to take that on, then she is choosing to do proper research into what gifts aren’t going to go against another co-workers ethical beliefs.

            2. biobotb*

              If you don’t want to learn anything about your coworkers’ preferences, don’t opt into gift exchanges with them. There would be no way to escape that, unless you want to give people entirely random gifts, at which point why are you even giving them something if you care so little about them?

        2. Smithy*

          Yeah, this strikes me as a case of almost wanting to work backwards from what resolution Liz would like to see.

          Maybe this is a case where Liz is getting frustrated with the larger practice of having to buy gifts for 6 coworkers – particularly if it feels like what they’re receiving is not equitable with the time/money they’re spending? Maybe there’s a completely different issue at play between Liz and Marie? But ultimately, I think where Liz could be more helpful with this claim is to better identify what resolution they want to see.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            Oh goodness, I feel this. Mostly with my brother.

            Every year for Christmas, I do try to get him something nice that explores his interests that I really do think he’ll like, enjoy, and/or appreciate. Every year… he does not.

            One year, his Christmas gift to me was a Blu Ray of the Minions movie. I had never once talked to him about the Minions, I was in my 30s (maybe not the target demo for the movie), and did not own a Blu Ray player. It kind of hurt my feelings how little thought he had put into my gift.

            Now I don’t think Liz has any cause to be cold to anyone over gifts in a professional environment, but I also think this is signalling that this gift-giving tradition needs to die.

    4. Jennifer Strange*

      If the third gift had been completely vegan-friendly and Liz was cold about an honest mix-up I might agree (though even then I could see how two years of non-vegan gifts could be annoying).

      1. Observer*

        If the third gift had been completely vegan-friendly

        Yes, that’s the key here. As Alison said the mixup is a bit of a red herring. It’s the fact that she got a supposedly “vegan” gift with *cheese* seasoning. Even people who don’t know alot about veganism generally know that vegans don’t eat dairy. Now, they might no realize that it means things like whey, but cheese? No.

    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      Agree.

      Marie made very reasonable mistakes. I think a lot of people don’t know that some vegans don’t use leather. She asked a co-worker for help the third time and did what the coworker told her. The idea that this is some sort of bullying tactic seems far fetched.

      Now if there’s a history between the two of them, then that’s different.

      1. Observer*

        She asked a co-worker for help the third time and did what the coworker told her.

        No, she did not do what her coworker told her. Because her coworker did not tell her that *cheese* is OK – and what’s more, cheese is one of the signature items that vegans don’t eat.

        Is she a bully? I don’t know. But this is well beyond an “excusable” mistake.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          “asking Ron to open his gift to show the popcorn intended for Liz. Liz was very quiet throughout, and the coworker who had recommended the popcorn said she had indeed suggested this to Marie.”

          The letter says that the coworker who recommend the popcorn said she had suggested this to Marie. The coworker didn’t say, “I recommended popcorn but not this set.” The coworker said that this is what they suggested.

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            The letter says that the coworker who recommend the popcorn said she had suggested this to Marie. The coworker didn’t say, “I recommended popcorn but not this set.” The coworker said that this is what they suggested.

            That is quite the hairsplitting you’ve got going on there. To split even more hairs, the letter doesn’t quote exactly what the coworker said, so for all we know she did say, “I recommended popcorn but not the set.” More likely it was something like, “I told her to get you popcorn, so it was just a mistake that you opened Ron’s gift” (so not mentioning the seasoning at all).

          2. fhqwhgads*

            It suggests the coworker is saying “yeah she asked me and I suggested popcorn” before the whole, label-reading opening-of-box bit happened.
            The point of corroborating the ask is “see she was trying” not to rope himself into “I suggested a not vegan popcorn kit and she purchased it at my rec”.

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        The co-worker told her popcorn. I’m guessing they didn’t tell her popcorn with cheese seasoning.

      3. MsM*

        I realize people are dense about this, but I honestly find the leather gift hardest to justify. I get maybe not thinking that animal byproducts like honey and dairy harm the animals, especially if you’re buying from small independent farms, but something definitely has to die before you can use its skin like that.

        1. amoeba*

          I realise this is OT but… dairy is definitely not a by-product in any way? Something definitely does have to die for a cow to give milk as well, as the cow needs to be pregnant to give milk…

          1. Parenthesis Guy*

            That makes a lot of sense now that you mention it, but I didn’t know that. But is the fetus normally killed or is it born?

          2. ThatGirl*

            Calves don’t die for milk production! You can argue that the cows are mistreated, and yes, sometimes culled for lack of production or other reasons, but the calves aren’t being slaughtered willy-nilly.

            1. Alf*

              I really don’t want to derail this thread but this is factually incorrect. A large percentage of male calves are slaughtered for veal within the first week of their lives.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  To clarify, the concern is that factory farms that produce dairy require pretty significant animal suffering in order to be profitable, and some people choose not to support that. But again, I’m asking that we move on from this.

    6. Colette*

      If she’d claimed Marie was bullying her after the honey, I’d agree she was overreacting. But it has been three years, and this year she unwrapped a gift of meat. I don’t think “bullying” is a big stretch. (I know Marie says it wasn’t, but who wraps gifts and labels them later?)

      1. What_the_What*

        Meh. I don’t think it’s bullying per se–it is one event per year, and bullying is really about ongoing continuous behavior, but I DO think it’s completely disrespectful perhaps to the point of appearing hostile, and honestly if I were Liz I’d say, “I’m opting out of the gift exchanges going forward,” or suggest they move to a drawing of names with 3 gift suggestions from the recipient.

        1. Smithy*

          Yeah – if every year I was expected to buy 5 gifts for all my coworkers, and then feel like what I’m receiving is not of value – it would irk. Marie might be the easiest target for egregiously dropping the ball, but let’s say that the other 4 gifts were also mediocre to poor. It could easily add up to really not enjoying the entire practice.

          This may be a larger work issue – but it might also be a case where a long-standing tradition worked when everyone had fairly similar tastes/likes but doesn’t work for someone outside the group. A case where everyone supports a local sports team and likes a local donut shop, with that alone you have a variety of $25 and under gift options that are likely to be at least mildly enjoyed. Then you get a new employee who’s gluten free and doesn’t watch sports and suddenly the gifts really miss. So instead of modifying the practice to ensure that person is more likely to get what they want, they end up feeling problematized for not being like their coworkers.

      2. HBJ*

        I mentioned this up thread, but this is soooo easy to do. You don’t even have to be labeling them substantially later. I literally put my kid’s gift in the wrong stocking at Christmas this year. Stocking items in our family aren’t even wrapped!, and I still managed to mix it up.

    7. Brain Sturgeon*

      Same. And I don’t get where Marie was a “bit of an ass” according to AAM.

      I think Marie genuinely had good intentions and is actually being WAY nicer than necessary getting each of her coworker’s personalised holiday gifts. Liz is getting upset over something incredibly minor. Accepting stuff like this happening with graciousness is just part of choosing a lifestyle that is out of the mainstream.

      Poor Marie should probably just give up on the gifts next year.

      1. Dom*

        If you reread the OP, it’s not something Marie is doing out of the blue – it’s an organised gift exchange and everyone buys a gift for everyone else. If Liz is repeatedly buying gifts for people and Marie keeps giving her non-vegan things in exchange, three years running, and after Marie has apparently repeatedly apologised and said she’d get it right next time, that does feel like she’s being a bit of an ass. If instead of veganism, it was three different gifts along the lines of giving pork and alcohol to a Muslim, that’d also seem at a minimum like Marie was being very very careless and quite possibly an attempt at bullying. Many vegans take that aspect of their lives as seriously as someone else might take their religion. And besides, these aren’t relative strangers, it’s apparently a close office (or it seems that way to OP — I’m not so sure that’s true, based on the letter).

      2. Dust Bunny*

        It’s not incredibly minor. Marie either isn’t doing basic research or is ignoring all she should have learned from past errors.

          1. ShanShan*

            It’s a (best case scenario, accidental) microaggression toward a member of a group that is frequently mocked and harassed.

            The object isn’t the point. The event isn’t the point. The display of hostility toward vegans is the point. Even if it was accidental, it wasn’t *minor,* any more than making a big deal about how hard it is to pronounce a non -English name would be minor.

            1. Brain Sturgeon*

              I don’t think it was hostility, just ignorance. People make mistakes. It’s not a big deal.

              1. Jennifer Strange*

                You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a big deal for someone else, especially when it happened three times and has to do with their ethical beliefs.

              2. ShanShan*

                The woman handed her a box of meat to unwrap, for heaven’s sake. It’s either hostility or luck so bad it staggers credulity. And by “staggers credulity,” I mean that I’m fairly certain it’s a lie.

                I don’t know if you’ve ever been part of a group that people enjoy taking down a peg in public, but when people are trying to do that, their actions fall into some pretty recognizable patterns

          2. Colette*

            At best, Marie is being incredibly thoughtless. This is the kind of situation “it’s the thought that counts” is made for – the thought does count, and she either didn’t think about what Liz would like, or decided Liz was wrong – not just once, but three times in a row.

            If I say I don’t golf and someone buys me a golf club, either they didn’t pay any attention to what I’d like or they don’t care – and now I have to get rid of something I didn’t want in the first place. If they do it three years in a row, it will absolutely affect my relationship with them.

    8. Tippy*

      I think they’re both being a bit of an ass. Marie just seems…kinda dumb. I can actually get the cheese thing (I would not assume that cheese powder on popcorn has anything close to natural in it) but not knowing that leather is non-vegan is a little ridiculous.

      But as someone who was raised that all gifts should be accepted with gratitude I’m not too impressed with Liz’s attitude either. I had someone give me a gift certificate to a crab boil restaurant (for a moment, they were very popular where I live). Considering shellfish will kill me and they are very aware of that it was a bit of a funny WTF moment. Turns out they figured I could still go and they had checked to see if there was anything else on the menu, unfortunately I would not actually even be able to go in the building. I just said thank you, moved on and re-gifted. Saved me from spending money later on.

      1. Not on board*

        “all gifts should be accepted with gratitude”…..

        Well, that really depends. If you had a family member constantly give you size small clothing as a gift when you’re plus sized – should you be grateful?
        If you’re Jewish and someone kept giving you bacon flavoured treats?
        If you’re sober/recovering alcoholic and they keep giving you booze?

        In particular since I’m sure Liz has spent money on thoughtful gifts for her coworkers, Marie seems like a total jerk. She’s either REALLY stupid, or she’s being deliberately obtuse. After the third gift in a row being inappropriate, I think Liz is right to be upset. And if I’m Liz, I’m just not buying Marie gifts from here on in, and returning any gift from Marie unopened.

        1. Rara Avis*

          My sister-in-law consistently gave my child clothing 2 sizes too small. I don’t know if she was sizing off her petite grandchild (who was two years older than my kid), but she’d get a size 6 when my kiddo was 8. I smiled and said thank you and was grateful for the expression of caring.

          1. Observer*

            I smiled and said thank you and was grateful for the expression of caring.

            That assumes it was an expression of caring. Now, you know you SIL, so I am going to assume that you are correct in her case.

            In most cases, though, it’s not an expression of caring. In this case, it seems like *not* an expression of caring is the best case interpretation and it’s not necessarily even the most likely explanation.

          2. Not Getting It*

            Well, you are clearly more saintly than most. Here’s your internet gold star for being just so much the better person.

      2. mlem*

        I really do think there should be limits on “ALL gifts should be accepted with gratitude”. Some people really do give actively bullying or egregiously thoughtless gifts, and if a “gift” is clearly provocative or demonstrably thoughtless, the recipient shouldn’t have to fawn over them.

        In the case you cite, they failed but they *tried*. That matters.

          1. Brain Sturgeon*

            Another aspect of this is that people (women particularly) get a lot of pressure put on them with regard to holidays. How hard does she have to try? Is it fair she’s apparently expected to participate in this by her workplace?

        2. Tippy*

          One could say that Marie tried as well. She’s not very good at it, but the effort was there.

          Maybe it’s just me but I just don’t get that worked up about being gifted a crap gift, from anyone. It’s a gift. Donate it, re gift, or pitch…whatever.

          1. lanfy*

            The problem isn’t that it’s a crap gift. The problem is that it’s a gift that’s against the receiver’s ethics.

            And that’s in the context of the amount of aggression that vegans have to face from society in general.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        all gifts should be accepted with gratitude

        Honestly, no, and this feels a lot like being told to just accept mean teasing so the boat isn’t rocked. If the idea is that it’s the thought that counts, the thought still needs to go beyond “Get Liz a gift”. Just remembering to get somebody something, anything, isn’t much of a thought.

        Marie could very easily find appropriate gifts but she’s not. Whether she’s not really trying or thinks Liz is a princess and is sorta kinda sticking it to her or what, I don’t know, but it’s a crappy thing to do.

        1. Observer*

          and this feels a lot like being told to just accept mean teasing so the boat isn’t rocked.

          Or worse, being told to accept “the compliment”.

      4. KateM*

        No, it’s the thought that counts, you know?

        And Marie either hasn’t been putting much thought into it or has been putting evil thoughts into it.

      5. Molly*

        I would explain it this way:
        Suppose a coworker had a severe peanut allergy. The first year, without thinking, you got them something that did not have peanuts, did not taste like peanuts, etc. But, it had peanut oil as a potential ingredient (it is not uncommon for a label to say vegetable oil and in parentheses say “may contain any of the following…” and peanut oil is listed.
        So the next year you double-check for peanut oil, but don’t notice that the chocolates you bought state that they are manufactured in a facility that also processes nuts
        Finally, the third year. You carefully check oil and manufacturing processes, but you somehow, don’t label the gift until all are wrapped. When the person opens it, they got the one contains a jar of peanut butter! When you explain the error, and give them their intended gift, that gift contains a package of chopped peanuts that you figured they could just toss.
        Sorry, but all that combined makes the gift giver at least a bit of an ass.

        1. ShanShan*

          Also, those are escalating levels of effort. Marie’s scenario is more like you gave someone something with peanut oil, then peanut powder, then peanut oil again.

      6. Starbuck*

        “But as someone who was raised that all gifts should be accepted with gratitude”

        That’s your own personal value but it’s definitely not universal! I personally hate the expectation that I perform fake gratitude when receiving something that the giver should have known I can’t use. I also hate the burden of having to deal with an item I can’t use; I live in a very small space and have pretty intense executive disfunction so the task of passing on items like these is pretty onerous. I find being given this chore incredibly rude.

      7. Blue Pen*

        …but why did they buy you a gift certificate to that restaurant, knowing your allergy to shellfish, in the first place?

        I mean, if you’re taking the act of gift giving in the most objectively fundamental way—i.e., someone spent their money on me—then, sure, I guess gratitude comes into play. But if you’re spending money in such a way where I can’t benefit from the gift, then I don’t see why someone should be grateful for that. Barring an unintended slight (you accidentally got the wrong size, for example), if someone gave me a gift card to a seafood restaurant with knowledge that I’m severely allergic to shellfish, I would think they were an idiot at best.

        1. Blue Pen*

          And I want to be clear about unintended slights in gift-giving. I’m not talking about “oh, I wish the person got me the black sweater instead of a blue one.” I’m talking about “I’m deathly allergic to shellfish, and this person who knows that bought me a gift card to a lobster shack.”

      8. Reb*

        I was also raised that all gifts were to be accepted with gratitude. Including the time my dad’s friend bought me a bunch of “adult” gifts despite knowing I was icked out at the thought of kissing, let alone genitalia. I did not accept those “gifts” with gratitude. Just because you were raised that way doesn’t mean it was right.

    9. TechWorker*

      It seems an outsize reaction to a gift. They ALL get gifts for each other (crazy to me but there you go) so Liz has received 4 other presumably acceptable gifts every year. Roll your eyes and know that Marie doesn’t pay much attention and didn’t try that hard with the gift, sure. Ice her out and claim bullying even after an apology.. really?

      I may have a low barrier for ignoring useless gifts given my dad has on MORE than one occasion bought me earrings despite me never having pierced my ears :D (this year I didn’t ignore it but just said ‘oh you’ll have to give this to one of my sisters’ – no big deal..)

      1. What_the_What*

        Agreed. I really enjoy giving gifts. It’s one of my love languages. I shop all year for “oh so and so will LOVE this” type stuff and people seem to really appreciate the thoughtfulness. Receiving them though… well I’m almost universally disappointed (looking at you electric carving knife, sigh) but I get that not everybody has that mental energy to expend on buying gifts so I say Thank You and I either put it away until I can regift or donate it, or I use it once or twice and then it has a mysterious unsolvable issue requiring disposal.

        1. ShanShan*

          But neither one of you is part of a group that people routinely harass and mock for fun, and the problems with the gifts you received were not directly related to your membership in this group.

          The problem isn’t that Liz didn’t like the gifts. It’s that Liz is a vegan and most vegans have been harassed and laughed at for their beliefs, often on a regular basis, and often by people they thought were their friends.

          Someone on an earlier comment made the comparison of buying small clothes for an overweight person, which is a very apt comparison.

      2. KateM*

        So, your father regularly gives you gifts that basically are not for you but one of your sisters and you are left without gift, and you are happy with that. Well, you have grown up with him so maybe you don’t know to expect more care…

        1. TechWorker*

          To be fair this Christmas he got me two things, so one gift was still suitable. (Although to be honest hugely not to be my taste so probably won’t get much usage). But no, I don’t generally expect people to be amazing at gift giving (lots aren’t, even when they try) and I certainly wouldn’t expect it of a coworker. Our work secret santa this year we were asked to give suggestions, maybe that could work.

      3. Grimsby*

        I’m so sorry your father has treated you so badly that you think this is so little. You deserved better from him.

        And others deserve to be treated with respect too.

        1. TechWorker*

          We really just have differences of opinion here. Not being able to remember which daughter has pierced ears (& yes he also forgets my dietary requirements, though I generally bring my own stuff) is not a huge deal to me – there’s more important stuff to a relationship! The point I was really making is I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect coworkers to give super thoughtful and appropriate gifts (so maybe don’t do gift giving at all, could the the conclusion)

    10. spcepickle*

      I agree. While it is true that giving dairy to a vegan is not great, they are also just a coworker. I do not expect my coworkers to know details about my life. I also think it is unfair to ask people who are not my friends or loved ones to remember and know details about each coworker.
      The easier answer to this is to stop exchanging gifts with all your coworkers. It sounds expensive, exhausting, and wasteful.

      1. mlem*

        I don’t expect my coworkers to know details about my life randomly, sure. But if my coworker demonstrably learned a detail and then not once but twice more proceeded to get THAT SPECIFIC DETAIL wrong … I’d feel alienated. Gifts should signify that the recipient matters to the giver, and these gifts signify the opposite.

        I agree that the exchange is probably just a bad idea.

        1. kalli*

          And this isn’t a random factoid like ‘kalli loves to dance’ where someone might notice at the holiday party and it isn’t relevant the rest of the year.

          This is something that Liz lives with every day and is important every time there’s a meal break, especially if there’s a work event involving food and/or drinks. It’s important in Liz’s professional presentation in what she chooses to wear and thus her professional presentation (no leather = different considerations in belted clothes, types of shoes available etc. and that’s without knowing how she feels about wool, silk, fabric blends, makeup, hair products, accessories…). That’s before considering her chair at work, if she needs to use pencils, and countless other possible work tools in various types of jobs (anything from leatherbound notepads vs cardboard covered notepads vs what’s in post-it glue, to protective clothing). While it’s often a joke that you know someone’s vegan because they’ll tell you, part of the truth in that is because it’s a consideration that comes up quite a bit in daily life, to the point that every vegan has to compromise at some point, and there’s constantly considerations to be made.

          But that also means this isn’t a once a year thing that everyone else can ignore by pretending they didn’t notice or it’s not relevant.

    12. SoonToBeEsquire*

      I actually agree. If I were Marie I would just not get a gift for Liz any more especially after being accused of bullying. These days everyone is so quick to jump to offense especially over small personal things.

      1. zillah*

        i agree that often people will assume the worst in a way that’s counter productive, and there are definitely areas of my life where i just don’t bother to explain my dietary things to people anymore, and i do think that sometimes people just don’t get it without malice meant.

        but i also think that issues around dietary restrictions, veganism, etc can be really loaded. ime, people will sometimes try to find an analogous situation in their own lives to empathize what people are dealing with, but they miss a lot of the underlying issues that go along with it. i’ve also sometimes had food i don’t like – it’s very different than food i can’t eat.

        i don’t think that gifts once a year are bullying, but in liz’s situation, i’d be feeling uncomfortable enough that i would want to raise it with the boss to ensure it didn’t happen in the future, bc even if marie wasn’t trying to be hurtful, her actions would still be upsetting to me in the context of my life – which is often how upsetting things are, yk?

    13. CaffeineFiend*

      Same. Marie was a bit sloppy, and for the third year probably should have asked.

      The first year is entirely forgiveable – I very rarely anymore see vegans that refuse to use honey since most people consider beekeeping including harvesting the honey to be mutually beneficial and… it’s not like you can really just cage bees. To my knowledge, if the bees weren’t fine with some of the honey being harvested periodically they could just… go build a hive elsewhere. She probably should have asked Liz directly her stance on honey, but it’s possible another vegan Marie has encountered was fine with it so she assumed that was the case.

      For the popcorn, I think it’s reasonable that she either assumed that everything the recommended popcorn(assuming it was a certain brand) sold was vegan, or that the cheese seasoning wouldn’t contain dairy products. I think a lot of people don’t think hard on where flavorings come from and assume it’s all chemicals. I’ve also seen vegan snacks akin to cheetos, and numerous videos of people using things such as nutritional yeast to replicate cheese flavoring.

      The most baffling to me is the dog collar – I think that’s relatively obvious but at the same time, it’s not a food product and most people think of veganism as a purely dietary choice and specifically as a protest against the meat and dairy industries, so I can even then see not thinking about it.

      I understand to an extent Liz being aggravated, but these just aren’t all the most obvious things and a lot of vegans(and non vegans that have any concern for the environment and animal welfare) have varying opinions on honey and leather. I do think Marie should apologize, and ideally this should be something that can be solved by the two just talking. I think they would both feel better if Marie could ask Liz to tell her a little more about veganism and her stance(or, point Marie to informative sources so that Liz doesn’t have to do the work), and armed with a better understanding Marie could then come back with a suitable replacement gift. And she should probably just stay away from food gifts at this point unless there’s a good vegan bakery as others suggested… (I know this last part is wishful thinking and maybe more effort than either want to put in if they can still get work done in a civil manner)

  6. Catgirl*

    There are vegan stores that sell only vegan products. After accidentally messing up the first two times, why risk shopping at a non-vegan store?

        1. LCH*

          but amazon is notorious for fakes (at least in beauty products) so i don’t think i’d trust other products to be what they say they are. at least you’d be getting something that says on the packaging that it is vegan.

          1. Bella Ridley*

            What on earth kind of argument is this? Don’t trust things labelled vegan because they may not actually be vegan because they’re fake? This kind of purity test is ridiculous.

            1. ThisIsNotADuplicateComment*

              The argument of “don’t trust things labelled vegan on amazon because amazon’s quality control can be hard to trust” seems perfectly reasonable to me. Especially with someone like Marie who is already struggling to get this right.

              1. I Have RBF*

                Most food items on Amazon have pictures of the ingredients labels. Also, stores get fakes too. If you stick to known brands you usually don’t have a problem, but you need to make sure they shipped you the actual brand.

          2. Observer*

            Amazon is not the only game in town.

            Just for curiosity, I googled “on line candy store”. I got a bunch of responses. I chose the first one, and clicked on “gifts”. The filter includes “vegan”. And that comes up with 9 options.

            The point being that it took me less time to do this “research” than it did to type this all out.

        2. Head Sheep Counter*

          Lets imagine… you are vegan for ethical reasons. How does supporting this company support those ethics?

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        The other people in the office seem to find appropriate things for Liz somewhere so there is clearly a solution in this instance.

      4. Dahlia*

        I guarantee you that books, mugs, gift cards, and many other non-food items exist in your area.

    2. Jellyfish Catcher*

      My question is why, WHY is Marie always assigned to get a “present” for Liz,
      year after year ?? I don’t blame her for feeling cool toward Marie – 3 times in a row!

      This third year has to be the last time that Liz (and Marie) are put through through this wringer, even if it’s only sincere but poor judgment from Marie.

      Your manager should draw names, and (ahem…) check ‘em twice to make sure that combo doesn’t happen again.

      1. TechWorker*

        She’s not always assigned, they all get gifts for each other. Which tbh makes me think that one dud in the bunch is a bit *shrug*

  7. Czhorat*

    Yeah, I really feel for Liz here. Not only is it three years in a row, but imagine the shock of getting literal meats after two years of incidentally non-vegan gifts.

    Marie also should have gotten a replacement last year at the very least, even if she left the one with the honey as an inadvertent and unfortunate miss. The general rule is that if you messed up then it’s on you to fix it, whether or not the other person insists on a fix.

    The other thing to check is that the value of the gifts is comparable; “fancy popcorn” sounds like a lesser thing than the meat and cheese gift-basket; it certainly *feels* less substantial.

    1. Frenchman Ben*

      Yeah “fancy popcorn” to me sounds as “just popcorn but we’re trying to make it look like a nicer gift” from whichever brand or store labeled it as such. It’s also considerably less filling than meat and cheese, no matter how fancy you make it.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          I think it’s unpopped popcorn (since it’s coming with seasonings), which would be an OK gift if the seasonings were vegan. But really Marie is pretty ignorant to not be doing a quick “gifts for vegans” search.

          Also, LW, this tradition is clearly not working anymore and needs to be shut down.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            I would not assume unpopped popcorn. Those big metal tins of flavored (popped) popcorn are very popular holiday gifts – we used to get several from customers and vendors at my old office. Look up Kansas City Popcorn Co for an example.

            1. AngryOctopus*

              Yes, I know it exists. But this gift specifically comes with seasonings—generally the pre-popped tins come with butter or flavors or chocolate coatings or what have you on it, already prepared. Coming with seasonings makes me think it’s kernels that you can pop and put the seasoning blends on to your satisfaction.

      2. What_the_What*

        Meh. That’s pretty much a subjective thing, I think. I love popcorn and a gift of gourmet unpopped corn with seasonings would delight me, whereas those meat and cheese gift baskets (ala Harry and David, etc) are just IME universally BAD. Oversalty meat, weird shelf stable cheese spreads, stale crackers, jars of mushy olives, and highly processed cookies. BUT, I’m not Vegan, so ….

        1. Dek*

          Honestly, if we’re talking Harry and David, the PEARS *drool*

          My stepfather was a pediatrician and one of his patients would send him a box of those every Christmas.

          Now THAT would’ve been a nice vegan gift.

          1. CubeFarmer*

            One of my great uncles would get my grandparents a Harry & David box every year. Those pears were my faaaaavorite!

      3. ClinicalSnark*

        I would never consider ‘filling’ factor when purchasing coworkers gifts. Its a gift, I’m not filling your pantry. It sounds like Marie might do equitable gifts each year. Year 1 everyone got a honey. Year 2 some version of a personalized pet item. Year 3 pre-made gift baskets. Most big box retail stores or the fancy online places have a whole selection of gift baskets within different price ranges. Meat & cheese, fancy teas or coffees, chocolates/candies, and gourmet popcorn. Some of those meat & cheese ones have such low grade meats and cheeses included to make them shelf stable that I’d much rather have the popcorn.

    2. Magpie*

      I’m here to defend popcorn as a nice gift! There’s a popcorn company in my city that’s been around for decades and around the holidays they sell large tins of their popcorn as gifts. It’s so ubiquitous in this city that if you work in an office anywhere in town you’ll definitely have a tin of this in the break room at some point during the holiday season. The day after Christmas, they sell any leftover tins for half off and there’s always a line around the block of people trying to score one. Maybe this store’s gift popcorn is uncommonly good but it’s definitely possible to receive amazing popcorn as a gift.

      1. Magpie*

        Adding that I’m not defending popcorn as an appropriate gift for Liz. Obviously that missed the mark. Just here to say that not all gift popcorn is awful.

      2. cleo*

        Same! We may live in the same city (Chicago) and I definitely think fancy popcorn works as a nice gift (but not in this case for Liz)

      3. Yorick*

        I got a popcorn gift box for my husband this year. It’s several types of unpopped corn with a bottle of oil and a couple containers of seasonings. I would absolutely give this gift to a vegan friend even if one of the seasonings contained real cheese, with the idea that they can throw that seasoning away and still enjoy the rest of the box.

        It’s super different if this is a tin of popped popcorn with caramel and cheese on it. That’s clearly not a vegan friendly gift.

        But I can totally understand the mistakes with honey and even leather (if I bought a dog collar at a stand at a fair, for example, I might not consider what it’s made of AND many people only think of food when they think of veganism).

        1. Yorick*

          I’ll edit to say I would only give this to some of the vegans I know and only if I thought they would like the rest of the gift. I do agree it’s a good idea to try for a different gift. I would definitely not go for a food gift for someone with a food restriction I didn’t understand. But in general, food gifts are so easy! So I feel for Marie even though I do agree she’s being sort of thoughtless.

  8. Colette*

    I think Marie really needs to do better. The point of giving a gift is generally to show you appreciate someone; repeatedly giving something inappropriate is doing the opposite. “She didn’t know” works for the honey, but by this point, she should either know or bow out of the gift exchange altogether.

    But I agree that, as a bystander, there’s not much you can do.

    1. Required*

      I think that’s the key here. A gift isn’t required, so when you’re giving a gift to someone, you need to make sure that it’s something they’ll want and appreciate and something that doesn’t impose a burden on them. I’d rather get no gift than something I can’t use and also have to find a way to get rid of without just throwing it away. In this case, I bet Liz is feeling like she is being burdened with the items instead of being gifted them.

        1. Colette*

          I don’t think that’s necessarily true. In many groups that hold gift exchanges, you can bow out if you want to.

          1. Antilles*

            The group dynamics on that would be difficult for a six person group where everybody else participates though.
            If this was a bigger team, you could opt out and slide under the radar. Or if only half the office participated, you could easily swap to the “half which doesn’t celebrate”. But being the only one out of six not participating is very noticeable.

          2. Silver Robin*

            yeah but they all seem to be buying gifts for everyone, so Marie would have to not buy gifts for anyone and not receive any herself in a 6 person company where everyone else is participating. I think the path of least resistance here is for Marie to actually put in the work of figuring out what a vegan gift would look like and making things right with Liz.

        2. Observer*

          In this office, the gifts are required.

          Either way, though, you need to do the bare minimum, which is to take a couple of minutes – and I *do* mean “a couple” to find something the “giftee” can use. The analogies that people have been making to allergy are valid here.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Ban gift giving seems to be the only thing to really shut this down, if Marie can’t do better.

  9. EMP*

    You’re saying the gift exchange “works for us” but…it obviously is not working for everyone, and now the whole group is being affected by coworker tension.

    Maybe change up the exchange next year

    1. Czhorat*

      Yeah; I’d personally hate having to buy gifts for an extra half-dozen people every year and probably don’t need whatever random stuff my coworkers think I’ll enjoy.

      The problem is that ending the gift exchange now can leave a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, with everyone assigning blame to Liz or Marie depending on where they fall in the overall conflict.

      1. mlem*

        That’s a good point. I don’t think the exchange is a good idea, but now it’ll land as “YOU’RE why we can’t have nice things.”

      2. Wayward Sun*

        I would hate it too. I’m terrible at picking out gifts and when I’ve had to do workplace gift exhanges, people always transparently hated what I got them. It just made me feel bad.

      1. Yorick*

        I think that’s fine, and whoever’s in charge can wait until this Fall to nonchalantly announce that we don’t need to do it this year. I think that could avoid the blame falling on anyone.

    3. What_the_What*

      Came to say the same thing. If one colleague is getting marginalized every year… yeah that’s not “working for us.”

      1. Anon Again... Naturally*

        This. For those trying to minimize Marie’s actions- this happened three times. Let’s not forget that at best she was careless enough that even after two years of getting inappropriate gifts for Liz and upsetting her that Liz ended up opening something that was the worst offender of the three years- and that’s the kindest interpretation of Marie’s actions. Marginalized is exactly what is happening here, and it’s not okay.

    4. Phony Genius*

      I had just typed almost this exact same comment, then refreshed and saw yours. Rather than duplicate, I’ll piggyback.

      Because the group is so small, the problems created here are amplified. I would end this, at least in its current form.

    5. Observer*

      You’re saying the gift exchange “works for us” but…it obviously is not working for everyone

      Indeed.

    6. Endless TBR Pile*

      I don’t disagree. However.

      Six people in the group, so everyone leaves with 5 gifts. For 3 years straight, Liz has received unusable gifts from the same person. But the other 4 people seem to be able to shop for her without incident.

      This isn’t a Liz issue. This is a Marie issue.

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        This right here. I worked in a medical office before celiac disease was commonly known in the US public (late 90s/early 2000s), and one of the doctors had been diagnosed with celiac disease. We all got small gifts for each other. Everyone managed to get appropriate gifts for the doctor who had celiac disease – except for the head doctor, multiple years in a row. One year’s gift was a box of fancy imported cookies from the head doctor’s native country – all very gluten-ful.

        (The first year after his diagnosis, I had found a potato-only vodka and made a homemade vanilla extract for the doctor with celiac disease.)

    7. JFC*

      I agree the whole gift exchange needs to be re-evaluated. I’m not sure how many employees are involved, but that’s got to be a pretty big chunk of change everyone is spending on everyone else every year. Plus, the awkwardness of everyone opening their gifts in front of everybody else? Personally, I’d go for a Secret Santa or white elephant method instead, or maybe scrap the gifts altogether and do a nice party or meal instead.

      1. amoeba*

        It’s six people, so not horrible, I’d say – if we go by the jar of honey, buying five of those would be fine for a lot of people. Like five boxes of chocolate or whatever. I’d say the issue would be more to come up with something that fits for everybody year after year…

    8. Catgirl*

      We do gift exchanges where you don’t know who is going to receive your gift and one co-worker always gives a donation to a charity as his gift. Here’s an envelope with a certificate saying $ was donated to this charity for this cause. We love it, it’s a great gift. Next year Marie should give a donation to a vegan cause after CAREFULLY researching she’s choosing the right charity!

      1. Phony Genius*

        I get that the people in your office love it, but I’d feel awkward being the one person walking out of the party not carrying a tangible gift.

    9. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      This was my first thought as well. At a previous job where did gifts (thank god we don’t at my current job, it was fun to see people open gifts but also a nightmare at a time in the year we didn’t really need additional stress), we had a rule of no food/drinks. and we had a guiding theme each year which REALLY helped.

      My year favorite was “corporate colors” where all gifts were blue, green, and/or orange. I got a great hand exercise set (grip strength thingy and a donut for staving off carpal tunnel–so useful!) in blue, green, or orange depending on the strength/resistance of the tool.

  10. Dust Bunny*

    Yeah, this sucks, Marie. Do better. (Was the fancy popcorn really vegan, even, or did it have butter?)

    (I am not vegan, if that matters.)

    I can kind of see how one might not realize that honey wasn’t vegan but leather? The cow does not survive that process. It’s not even vegetarian.

      1. amoeba*

        Well, yes, but you could leave that out, at least – if there was additional butter in the pocorn itself, it’d be even worse!

      2. Wayward Sun*

        I’ll confess I had no idea for a long time that cheese powder had any actual dairy in it. It just seemed so obviously fake.

    2. madhatter360*

      Absolutely when you really think about it, of course a vegan wouldn’t want a leather gift, but I think there’s a lot of people who associate vegan as a dietary restriction and may not realize it applies outside of food items.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        The point is to not use animals! They literally try to sell vinyl shoes as “vegan leather” now.

        1. Devious Planner*

          The point can be a lot of things. For ethical vegans, maybe the point is not to use animals, and that is interpreted broadly. For those who are vegans for health reasons, it might be strictly about the food. Some might be vegans for environmental reasons and maybe they aren’t so strict about leather usage. I would still not give a vegan a leather gift, but I would assume “thoughtless” over “malicious”.

        2. AngryOctopus*

          But let’s be honest, most people who are not vegan don’t see it as a lifestyle, they see it as a dietary restriction. So I can see not considering that leather is off-limits, because it’s not a food gift. However, Marie is clearly not taking this seriously.

    3. Anne*

      I could very easily see myself or others making a similar mistake with the honey and leather. It never occurred to me that honey was not vegan. And when I hear vegan I think primarily of food restrictions and not other restrictions, so the leather probably wouldn’t even register as an issue until someone said something.

      As for the popcorn… It can be hard to find popcorn gifts that do not have extra add-ons (such as cheese seasoning), so I could see getting this for someone with the assumption they would not use any parts that they do not like/agree with.

      1. br_612*

        But after the first gaffe . . . wouldn’t you then google? That’s what’s so off to me. You don’t know vegan restrictions and make an honest mistake, okay. But then google the second year. It’s right there on your phone, ready to tell you that a lot of vegans don’t use leather at all, and a lot of the ones who do stick to second-hand leather, not new. I’d be too mortified from the first mistake to ever make the second.

        As for the popcorn, if it was the first gift . . . maybe. But if she’s a vegan for ethical reasons, it’s still problematic because you’ve given her something made from animal products and the entire reason she’s vegan is because she believes that using animal products is unethical and involves animal cruelty. So it’s easy to say “just don’t eat the cheese part” but to her it’s still evidence that you don’t care about her sincerely and probably deeply held ethical beliefs AND now she has to get rid of it. That gift is a burden on her, and gifts shouldn’t be a burden. Probably not as big of a thing if she’s vegan for dietary or environmental reasons, but I’d still be annoyed if I were Liz because it’s SO incredibly easy to find vegan friendly gifts since vegan foods are literally marketed that way.

        1. Spacewoman Spiff*

          Yeah, the fact that she didn’t google and try to figure out a safe gift after the first goof really stands out to me and makes me think this gift exchange is just part of some larger issue between the two of them. Absolutely makes sense to me that after the third year of getting non-vegan gifts, the vegan would be getting upset. And heck: why not just ask the person directly, “is such-and-such type product ok for you?”

      2. Annony*

        Then don’t get popcorn? Giving someone something they are ethically opposed to and telling them to simply not use that part is really really thoughtless at best and low key malicious at worst.

      3. Rose*

        I think the “they can just not use the parts they don’t like” approach would work well if everyone was getting the same gift. In a box of assorted popcorn seasonings, there’s a good chance that everyone would get at least one seasoning they like and can eat, and they could trade or give away the ones they can’t eat/don’t want. (Might even be fun in some workplaces! “Ron loves cheese and hates anything spicy so Liz traded him for his jalapeno seasoning, Marie is allergic to cinnamon so everyone fought over who got to take her cinnamon sugar, nobody likes the ranch flavor so somebody put all of them in a box and wrapped it up for the white elephant exchange.”) And the gift isn’t for any one specific person, so there’s (ideally) a shared understanding that it’s impossible to please everyone.

        But when it’s a gift chosen specifically *for* somebody, it’s a bit of a bummer for that person to be told, “Oh, I guess you can’t eat this, so just go ahead and throw out the parts you don’t want.”

    4. Rara Avis*

      There are a lot of assumptions that everyone knows what vegetarianism and veganism entail — but I’ve never been exposed to proselytizing vegans and vegetarians, so my understanding was that vegetarians don’t eat meat, and vegans don’t eat animal products (I had not ever thought about honey being an animal product until meal planning for a group that included a vegan) — but today I learned it that it extends to wearing/using animal products as well. And I live in an area where these diets are extremely common — but I guess common enough that those that follow them don’t feel the need to defend them. I’ve seen a lot of comments along the line of “Everyone should know about leather” — but I’m here to say that it’s entirely possible that well-educated, well-read people might still not know.

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        Sure, but once you give a gift that someone can’t use due to a dietary restriction, wouldn’t you educate yourself on what they can use for future gifts?

        1. Bromaa*

          I mean…. yes, and I would google “vegan food” (which I am not convinced Marie did, given, you know, the cheese powder), which would not necessarily bring up “vegan lifestyle choices that aren’t food”. Or I would have gotten a non-food item, and it wouldn’t necessarily occur to me to me that it might extend past food — OR I might only be familiar with vegan as food-related, since for some vegans, that is in fact true. Twice is still under “a coincidence” for me; what makes this cross the line isn’t Gift #2, it’s Gift #3.

      2. Retired-ish*

        I agree with this comment 100%. I for one have only limited experience with veganism and would not have thought about the issues with honey, leather, or cheese.

        In addition, this whole issue involves buying gifts for a coworker, which in my world, would involve the following thought process: “Oh crap, the office gift exchange is tomorrow. What to get Liz? I’ve really messed up about veganism. Hmmm…Bernie said popcorn was okay. Here’s a gift tin of it. Done. Now what to get Bernie?”

        I’m not saying that thought process was right. Marie probably should have made more of an effort. But I can well understand how this stuff happens.

        On the other hand, I understand Liz’ frustration, having been on the receiving end of dud gifts. However, in my experience, office gifts have tended to be token gifts — a candle, a knickknack etc. Five minutes after bringing it home, I’ve probably forgotten it — or regifted it.

        The situation stinks all around. If the staff is that small, probably time to do away with the gift giving.

    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Except I do know vegans and vegetarians who wear leather. Some are actually vegan/vegetarian in diet only. Some are “whole life vegans” but will wear OLD leather (so still not a gift of new leather).

      It is a whole separate active debate about the overall harm of fast fashion and plastics vs durable already dead leather. Same as there is a whole debate over vegetables grown with bone meal fertilizer.

      Marie should do better, but I don’t think it is inherently obvious that leather is out if you are not exposed to veganism.

    6. zillah*

      for the record, i’m a vegetarian, and most vegetarians i know (including myself) will wear leather. it’s a dietary thing for us, not a whole lifestyle.

      not relevant re: marie and liz, i just wanted to clarify that.

  12. CubeFarmer*

    Marie is being really, really sloppy. It’s not hard to google “good vegan food gifts” and make a purchase based on the results.

    Kind of reminds me of a situation years ago with two friends. One kept forgetting to invite the other to little meetups she would occasionally have. The first time? NBD, we’re all adults. The forgotten friend said something like, “Hey, that would have been fun,” and the inviter friend said, “OMG, I’m an idiot, I’m so sorry! Nothing personal.” But then it happened two more times. By the third time the forgotten friend was like, “Um, I give up.”

    1. Artemesia*

      This. I have vegan relatives. We have no trouble finding vegan chocolates or other vegan treats.

  14. techie*

    The thing is, this could all be resolved by doing aware with these 1:1 gifts from everyone to everyone…I would hate that!

    That’s also what makes this situation so awkward. As a vegan myself, I received a company holiday gift of various chocolate treats that were certainly not vegan. Kinda sucked, but I gave it to a friend and moved on knowing that this was just The Thing they sent everyone. It happens a lot. But when it’s one person giving a gift to one specific other person…it’s a lot more understandable that Liz is bothered. Like, it’s been 3 years!

    1. Blahblahblah*

      YESSS! And if it’s only happening to her then I’d feel very much singled out and like she doesn’t like me.

    2. cindylouwho*

      Yeah I low key feel like the issue is getting gifts for everyone from everyone. Depending on how big their group is, that’s a lot of thinking about what people like/don’t like/can’t have that has to go into this!

    3. Jennifer Strange*

      While I don’t disagree that 1:1 gifts from everyone doesn’t sound pleasant to me, it sounds like it’s a tradition at the LW’s work so I doubt they’d be able to change that.

      1. Kyrielle*

        And if they specifically change it now, it’s also going to get blamed on Liz/Marie and create *another* layer of misery.

    4. TechWorker*

      This makes not much sense to me – if a large company is getting gifts for all of their employees, surely they have *more* responsibility to take into account dietary restrictions than if a coworker is getting gifts for their colleague (where just as with the company it’s easiest for them to get the same thing for everyone, but they’re using their own money and time to do so..!)

      1. TechWorker*

        TLDR: I think it’s a lot more reasonable to be pissed that a company assumes everyone can have chocolate than for a random person to not know honey and leather isn’t ok for a vegan..

  15. I should really pick a name*

    The popcorn set contained two jars of cheese seasoning, but I really think Marie tried this year

    No, Marie didn’t try. It would marginal effort to learn that cheese isn’t vegan, and I would expect Marie to put in that effort after making mistakes the past two years.

    I’m not sure why the LW is going out of their way to defend Marie like this.

    At this point, Marie shouldn’t give Liz food gifts.

    1. Nonsense*

      It’s cheese *seasoning* though. Since when is cheese seasoning anything other than chemicals? There’s definitely no dairy involved.

          2. br_612*

            My nephew has a dairy allergy. SO MANY of the “fake” cheese products have milk byproducts. Including those shakey containers you could sometimes buy tiny versions of at the movie theater. Kernel season’s? The white cheddar and nacho cheese flavors the first ingredient is cheddar cheese.

            Check the allergen listing. More of them than you think will say they contain milk.

          4. br_612*

            All those Kernel Season’s cheese flavors have cheese in them. Like the little shakey containers you could sometimes buy at movie theaters. Cheese.

            My nephew has a dairy allergy, you’d be surprised at how many things have random dairy in them. Always gotta check the allergen listings, even on like frozen hashbrowns.

            2. Spooz*

              Yup. I once ate some salt and vinegar crisps without checking the ingredients. Learned the hard way they were covered with whey powder!!!

              Marie is being really really thoughtless. She is not putting genuine effort into these gifts which would either involve quickly googling “what do vegans not eat” and skimming the ingredients list, or googling “vegan chocolate (or whatever)” and buying something labelled vegan.

              It is not rocket science. It is not a huge amount of labour. I don’t think it sounds like bullying at all, but I also don’t think it sounds like Marie really cares despite her protestations that she’s really trying. Because she’s actually not trying the two effective tactics to successfully buy for someone who has particular requirements.

              I am frequently given things I cannot use in generic group project thank yous where everyone gets the same miscellaneous thing (no dairy so no to most chocolates, no alcohol so no to the ubiquitous bottle of wine) and am not offended by that. I would be upset by someone buying a gift particularly for me that I couldn’t use THREE YEARS IN A ROW who made a production out of how haaaaaard they’re trying and how haaaaaard I am to buy for.

          5. KateM*

            Don’t know about you, but in my circle, people do buy fancier kind of snacks for gifts.

            *checks if there are any more of those fancy licorice things left…*

          6. Dahlia*

            KD seasoning for their cheese sauce includes whey and milk fat. Wouldn’t call that fancy, myself.

      2. I should really pick a name*

        There’s actual cheese and modified milk ingredients in the only ones I’ve ever read the ingredients for.

      3. Colette*

        Have you read the ingredients? I’m pretty sure there woould be milk in it. Everything is chemicals.

      4. Butt in Seat*

        There’s enough milk in it for my milk-allergic kiddo to have reactions (we read every label, always).

      5. Observer*

        Since when is cheese seasoning anything other than chemicals? There’s definitely no dairy involved.

        Nope, even seasoning is often made with cheese along with lots of chemicals.

        When you are giving someone food, the least you can do is to make sure that it doesn’t have ingredients that a person cannot have. Claiming that “cheese” anything “definitely” doesn’t have any cheese is nonsense and simply proves that the person couldn’t be bothered to spend a couple of minutes getting it right.

      6. AnonInCanada*

        I’m pretty sure cheese seasoning has elements of dairy products in it. Example: These are the ingredients for Club House brand Hot+ Cheesy Seasoning:

        Modified milk ingredients, Salt, Spices and herbs, Dehydrated garlic, Corn maltodextrin, Sugar, Cheddar cheese solids, Citric acid, Natural flavour, Dehydrated tomato, Yeast extract, High oleic sunflower oil, Paprika extractives, Sodium phosphate, Silicon dioxide, Calcium silicate

        So, yeah, Marie could’ve done better with this gift as well.

      7. Falling Diphthong*

        I would expect almost anything labeled “cheese” to have some dairy on the ingredient list, probably dried milk powder.

        –someone who reads labels because of a dairy-allergic family member

        When I started reading labels (this was a late arriving allergy) I was amazed that almost all the margarine at the market contained some dairy. Eventually narrowed in on Earth’s Balance, for anyone who needs some vegan margarine.

        1. L*

          If it’s available near you, Becel also makes a vegan margarine! Have a cousin that’s allergic to dairy and he swears by it.

      8. Rose*

        Cheese seasonings typically contain powdered milk or some other kind of dairy. Even Kraft mac and cheese powder isn’t vegan – even if you make it with soy milk and vegan butter.

        Regardless, Marie could have easily checked the ingredients, or at the very least not bought a product that says “cheese” right there on the label.

      9. adk*

        They put milk powder in EVERYTHING. Check the allergens the next time you’re in the potato chip aisle. I understand milk being in Sour Cream & Onion and obviously Cheddar flavored chips, but why is milk in Salt&Vinegar chips? Or BBQ?

        1. kalli*

          Whey, milk powder and/or similar (depending on the brand and recipe) is used to ensure the seasoning sticks to the chips.

          Even some ‘original’ or ‘salted’ products will have it, or will be produced on the same machine without a thorough clean in between such that there’s a nonzero chance of transfer, which is why you may see ‘may contain traces of’ on some labels. Some people’s allergies will still be set off (perhaps unpredictably so) with ‘may contain’ foods, and others will see that as ‘this is involved in the production chain so I will avoid it’ and others will go ‘well they don’t use it on purpose so it’s fine for me’.

          Honestly the simplest solution if you aren’t going to work with someone to ensure that you get them something they can have, is to not buy food at all. In this case, Marie should have just asked Liz what she wanted if she couldn’t find something on her own – does that mean Liz has to do emotional labour for her own gift? Yes, but it outweighs the feeling of getting a gift that she can’t use while everyone else gets something they can at least perform gratitude for.

      10. biobotb*

        OK, what brand of cheese “seasoning” do you buy that doesn’t have any milk ingredient in it?

    2. I should really pick a name*

      Of course, the leather still happened, so even that doesn’t solve the problem…

    3. JFC*

      Sometimes those gift sets don’t mention seasoning packets inside. Also, I’m failing to see why Liz couldn’t just toss the seasoning and eat the popcorn plain.

      1. Colette*

        She probably could, but that’s a (small) burden on her, particularly if she doesn’t want non-vegan stuff in her house. But it’s at best a poor gift – generally when you give someone a gift, they shouldn’t be expected to throw any of it away without using it.

        And the gift she unwrapped contained meat.

      2. Shiara*

        She can, and probably the popcorn with unusable cheese seasoning elements might have snuck by as okay if it had been the first year, but after two years of thoughtlessness, it just really emphasizes “I don’t understand what’s important to you and I don’t care.”

        Based on the vegans I know, they’d really rather not have animal products purchased in their name. Doing so, even if they can then throw it away and “salvage” the rest, is just not a thoughtful gift.

  16. Observer*

    Yeah, Marie is being a jerk here. Because while I can see how someone might not know that honey is vegan, leather is something that should at least have sparked a question in her mind. Especially since she knows that she is missing a lot of information here! So, even though it’s not “obvious” that leather was a problem, it’s already a bit much. But still within the realm of possibly (very) oblivious.

    But *cheese*? Come on. That’s not actually credible. And in a way, the fact that she made a deal about “asking” and then adding on something that is the most common example of what differentiates vegetarians from vegans? Even if it were the first time, it would feel intentional. In this context?

    Also, @Carlie is right. “Once is a mistake, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern”

    The one who is being unreasonable is Marie. She messed up. And her apologies don’t mean much because apologies that are not accompanied by improved behavior simply don’t land for most people. And the fact is that she has not changed her behavior. Because she “asked” but not really – she got the popcorn, but then added something without bothering to ask about the added item. That she chose to “not ask” about the most *obvious* non- vegan item in the book just makes it worse. At best, it’s willful ignorance, and that’s not ok.

    1. Morgan*

      Yeah, as I see it she got progressively more obviously less vegan gifts every year. Honey is disputed among vegans, leather is in my mind one of the big obvious “vegan vs vegetarian” distinctions, and then she handed her actual meat, only to say that was a slip up and hand her actual cheese instead. At any point she could have a) googled “vegan”, b) asked an actual vegan for advice, c) looked for gifts specifically recommended for or labeled as vegan, and/or d) gotten something that was vanishingly unlikely to have any vegan objections (admittedly not foolproof, but like, a book? A CD? A gift card?)

      From Lisa’s point of view it absolutely makes sense to see this as a pattern, and a deliberate one.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed.

        She might have been understanding (again!) about the popcorn by itself – but she first unwrapped meat, which wouldn’t predispose her to be understanding.

      2. CeeDoo*

        I’d like to add in here that a popcorn gift basket and a meat-cheese gift basket are very different shapes, different weights, and hard to wrap. Even if she had switched labels by mistake or something, I’d think that the simple act of picking up the basket would tell her “Hey, this heavy one is meat, and shouldn’t go to the vegan coworker.”

  17. Blahblahblah*

    Honestly, if that happened to me – I would just talk to Liz on an as-needed basis for work-related stuff but I would no longer associate or speak to her on anything outside of work. It would seem intentional to me at that point and I’d feel and think that Liz dislikes me, even if nothing else was going on.

    2. ChattyDelle*

      agreed. Liz is reacting appropriately – Marie’s made it perfectly she doesn’t really care what Liz wants or cares about. Marie’s “care” about Lux’s feelings is superficial at best

  18. cindylouwho*

    Every year, my boss buys our whole office chocolate and wine. I am sober and cannot eat chocolate due to migraines (which he knows). I always just graciously accept. Would it be nice if it was something I could have? Yup. Would I like him more if he made the effort/remembered? Yup! But having dietary restrictions out of the norm means that sometimes people don’t just get it. I don’t take it as a personal affront. In my opinion, it’s just not that serious. And it certainly doesn’t rise to the term of ‘bullying’ to me.

    1. Artemesia*

      Your boss is a jerk to give wine to people who don’t drink and chocolate to a person he knows gets migraines from it. Not that you can do anything, but he is a jerk.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Not everyone has to follow your lead, though. And wouldn’t it be nice if someone GAF enough to give you a gift you could actually use? We have a coworker who is allergic to chocolate and another who is allergic to a strange list of fruits but we always make sure there are snacks they can eat, and that stuff doesn’t get cross-contaminated.

    3. xylocopa*

      Well, when someone is getting a generic gift for everyone–like wine and chocolates–that usually takes away any element of potential bullying, as such.

      Without any more info than we have, “bullying” seems like a strong word for the situation here too. But when it’s two personalized-but-inappropriate gifts in a row, I can see why there’s friction.

      1. TechWorker*

        They got the honey for everyone and possibly ‘some variant of popcorn’ for everyone too…

        1. No*

          No, Ron’s gift was a meat and cheese set the year that she gave the popcorn to Liz, and the letter makes it clear that the popcorn was specifically intended for Liz as a (bad, considering the cheese seasoning) vegan snack. She didn’t get popcorn for everyone.

          1. TechWorker*

            Oh lol I totally misread that as ‘meat and cheese flavoured popcorn’. Weirder things have happened…

    4. H3llifIknow*

      Your boss just seems … lazy to me. When I had 25 people working for me, it was much easier to place an order for 25 “branded jackets” for example than try to individualize gifts. My guess is he’s thinking along the same lines “I can order 40 bottles of wine and boxes of chocolates, rather than try to figure out who has what restrictions,” especially if he either forgets yours or just thinks “meh she’s one of 40 (or whatever number) that can’t eat/drink this.” Don’t get me wrong, he’s a jerk for not caring but I see it as being lazy rather than malicious.

      1. AngryOctopus*

        This. I had a boss who used to give chocolates to everyone at the holiday season. I had a coworker who didn’t like chocolate. She just shared it out, realizing the boss is buying bulk gifts for 10+ people, not all of whom she interacts with regularly, not trying to give individual gifts to people.

      2. lanfy*

        I once had a boss who bought wine for 20 people every year – except for the two Muslims in the office, who got something else (chocolates, I think). It doesn’t take all that much effort.

    5. EBStarr*

      Yeah, as a vegetarian, I feel the same way. My friend of twenty years just sent me an adorable care package this Christmas that had some non-vegetarian snacks in them (gelatin). I’m guessing she didn’t think to check for it and, like, it’s fine?? I’m an adult woman. If I receive a snack I can’t eat, I just…don’t eat the snack. I don’t expect other people’s lives to revolve around my dietary restrictions. I find it so touching when people do make an effort, whether or not they get it right.

      Marie DID ask people for suggestions on vegan snacks so she actually put in effort, she just…messed it up again. Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong, but there’s nothing wrong with that either! It’s just the way some people are.

      The only way I’d sympathize with Liz here is if Marie is weird about her veganism otherwise, in which case this becomes part of a pattern. Otherwise, it’s just a gift fail; not everyone is good at gifts, and also, not everyone is good at logical thinking along the lines of “I should check all ingredients instead of buying Random Popcorn Gift Basket because one person said that vegans like popcorn.” That doesn’t make them a bad person or a bully.

      1. Observer*

        Marie DID ask people for suggestions on vegan snacks so she actually put in effort, she just…messed it up again.

        In a way, it makes it worse. Because she did not actually follow her coworker’s suggestion. Which looks like she was “performing” effort rather than *actually* trying.

        Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong

        If it’s cluelessness, then it’s at a level that is truly problematic. Between the pattern and the fact that she chose, after messing up twice before, to add one of the things that almost defines the difference between vegans and vegetarians, which clearly also going to some effort to personalize the gifts that’s just a huge “mistake”.

        1. Annony*

          Yep. Trying would mean reading the ingredients. I agree that she is being performative and I don’t think the gift mix up was a mistake. I think she is “trying” in that she wants to mess up just enough to upset Liz while maintaining plausible deniability and her victim status because vegans are just so unreasonable.

      2. lunchtime caller*

        ” Honestly, she sounds like she’s maybe not the brightest bulb if she tries this hard and gets it wrong, but there’s nothing wrong with that either! It’s just the way some people are.”

        That’s where I land to an extent too. Basically OP has to ask herself, does Marie generally strike her as well, kinda slow? Bad at remembering details, often makes mistakes, but otherwise kind-hearted and well-meaning? If so, then there’s your answer. If she generally seems sharp though with a mind like a steel trap, then it definitely feels more targeted.

        1. KateM*

          If she is always “kinda slow, bad at remembering details, often makes mistakes” then how does else does it show at work?

          1. PurpleCattledog*

            We don’t know what Marie’s job is. Not every job requires someone who is highly intelligent (although I know many highly intelligent people who are really stupid about things outside their expertise).

            I get Liz being annoyed. I find it annoying when my family stuff up gifts. But I think Liz is ridiculous calling this bullying. She’s expecting too much from a random colleague – and frankly I think she does need to understand that while the thought might not be enough, there are things you can and cannot expect from a colleague.

            Marie is trying to buy gifts for colleagues, one of whom has a lot of restrictions on what they deem ethical to receive. These restrictions are not ones Marie is familiar with. Sure she could put a lot more effort in – but it’s not really reasonable to expect your colleagues to put in that much effort. Year 1 she got everyone the same gift – unfortunately it didn’t match Liz’s ethical framework. Year 2 she bought a collar for the pet dog – it probably felt really safe as a gift. Unfortunately, also not in Liz’s ethical framework. Year 3 she’s worried, asked a coworker, and got what was suggested. While it was wrong – that really does feel like a genuine error. She asked for help and followed the suggestion. It would never have occurred to me that popcorn wasn’t going to be vegan (in my defence I’ve never heard of cheese seasoning – I’m not in the US so maybe that’s not a thing in my country).

            Yes it really is bad that she got it wrong again. But bullying feels like ridiculous overreach. If Marie is bullying Liz outside of once a year sort-of-forced gift giving – then the bullying would be there without the popcorn gift error.

            If I was Marie I’d probably just be sick next year and stay away from gift giving.

    6. Observer*

      So, your boss is a jerk. It’s not THAT hard to find something that one person can have.

      But what happened here is worse. Your boss is just doing the default “standard” gift, and probably excuses his failure to “make exceptions” by claiming you could re-gift or take it home to your family or whatever.

      But in this case it’s a *personal* gift and she’s clearly made the effort to personalize the gifts, as she got the other coworker a gift set that was clearly catered to his tastes. Repeatedly failing to get something usable when you are getting *personal* gifts is a whole different level.

    7. Aggretsuko*

      Frankly, it sounds like it’s too much effort to keep fighting that battle on trying to get him to change. (I concur that it’s lazy to just get everyone the same thing.) Like fine, whatever, handing that stuff off to someone else, same as ever. What can you do.

    8. Cyndi*

      I worked for a few years at a sports gear store staffed basically entirely by douchey sports bros who were varying levels and varieties of bigot. I expected nothing from them, as people. And even there, when the management gave everyone else a bottle of vodka for Christmas every year, they remembered I couldn’t drink and gave me a Dunkin gift card instead.

      Please expect, and ask, better from your boss.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I think a major distinction with this letter is that the gifts are uniquely chosen for each individual. It’s easier to shrug off the “identical gift to every employee” every year than the “I carefully considered exactly what you, as a unique individual, would enjoy, and this is what I came up with.”

      I think in a lot of offices, trying to deviate from generic, to generic for everyone except Sam, would lead to resentment from someone who thinks Sam’s gift is too nice or not nice enough.

      (Reminds me of an observation in a book that a uniform is not the wearer’s fault, and so the wearer can’t be blamed for its ugliness, unsuitability, etc. “The same for everyone” is often a helpful way to avert hurt feelings, since it’s generic and not personal.)

    11. Annony*

      You are talking about a thoughtless, generic gift that he gives to everyone. He literally doesn’t think about who he is giving it to at all. So even if some people like it, they know he didn’t actually think about what they like. This is a targeted gift only for Liz. Would you really just shrug if your boss gave lovely thoughtful gifts to everyone else and specifically bought you (and only you) wine and chocolate every year?

    12. Kelly White*

      I also don’t drink and have often been given wine from my company- to me, this feels different because that is a company gift that everyone gets and everyone is getting the same thing.

      The OP’s situation feels icky because these are supposed to be gifts for the individuals.

    13. ShanShan*

      As I say every time this issue comes up, your personal comfort level with being treated rudely is your personal comfort level with being treated rudely, not a mandate that other people are bound to follow.

      Also: there isn’t a whole culture centered around badmouthing and microagressing against people who don’t drink or get migraines the way there is around vegans. You can be pretty sure your boss isn’t actively trying to piss you off: Liz can’t.

      1. Non Drinker By Choice*

        I actually would disagree about there not being a culture around badmouthing people that don’t drink – the culture might be moving more towards being accepting of someone who doesn’t drink at all, but right now there’s still a lot of people who will make comments about non-drinkers, think less of them, and seem to get personally offended at them.

        1. Spooz*

          I quite agree. People can get VERY weird around people who don’t drink alcohol. There are groups where non-drinkers are actively bullied and mocked, and this is not a tiny minority of groups. There have been letters on this very site about it.

      2. PurpleCattledog*

        You’re lucky to live in a place that doesn’t have problems with non-drinkers! Attitudes are improving – but many of the things vegans have mentioned here are things I’ve experienced around non-drinking (being asked to justify, being told that something should or should not be consumed because another non-drinker is or is not ok with a product, being mocked, people trying to catch you out “breaking the rules”, people ignoring your limitations, having poor alternatives or none, options that are actually alcohol too, disparaging comments, the arguments about health etc etc etc)

        Also – migraine sufferers absolutely can and do experience comments and poor treatment about their illness. I’ve witnessed people minimising the illness, mocking comments, and accusations of putting it on to get out of things. And I don’t even get migraines so these aren’t comments aimed at me.

    14. Mad Harry Crewe*

      But your boss is getting everyone the same thing, which takes some of the sting off. It would probably hit a bit different if you got wine and chocolate, but your coworkers all got, idk, tickets to their favorite sportsball team, or a hat in their favorite colors – something they not only can use but that delights them.

    15. KateM*

      This reminds me of all those stories about people who have been so long in a toxic environment that they consider it a norm.

    16. Daisy-dog*

      I’m definitely realizing that I have ascended to a new level of DGAF from reading these comments. I didn’t get anything from work for the holidays and last year I got something small and generic. I’ve definitely received thoughtless gifts before. To me…it’s just work. (With family/friends, that has a different standard.)

    17. Blue Pen*

      This line of reasoning is so irksome to me. Look, I get it — I’m a vegetarian with a gluten-sensitivity, so it’s not exactly a surprise to me when I come across a situation where I either have no option or exceedingly limited options.

      But that’s only changing because my co-workers are now aware, and they now make it a point to make sure that I (and others with dietary restrictions or allergies) can still feel included. Instead of enabling the viewpoint of non-inclusivity and “just be grateful to have anything,” think how much nicer it would be to feel just as seen and thought of as everyone else when it comes time to gifts and celebrations. You are not a problem in the workplace because you develop migraines to chocolate, just like I am not problem because I happen to not eat meat. It doesn’t make you or me or anyone else less grateful or eager to celebrate with our colleagues.

    18. Come On Eileen*

      I am also sober. My boss knows I am sober. She would NEVER give me wine. Giving alcohol to a person you know is sober is not a personal affront, but is highly inappropriate.

    19. Good Wilhelmina Hunting*

      Yep. Every year I worked at one company, I got something unsuitable. I’ve mentioned elsewhere the disappointment of losing a book voucher at a Dirty Santa to end up with some stupid DVD movie when colleagues knew I was studying. And the other years? A book of chocolate recipes, when my restrictions around sugar and dairy were known. A perfume set, when my allergies to fragrances were infamous in the office. And a bottle of wine, where the giver even admitted while handing it over that he remembered after purchase I’m teetotal (but gave it to me anyway). Was it subtle bullying? Maybe. However, like some other commenters, I was brought up to say thank you.

    20. Scarlert*

      I think there’s a big difference between buying something you don’t like / can’t use, and buying something explicitly against someone’s ethical code. People aren’t vegan *just because* of what they put in their bodies, it’s an ethical choice. By continually purchasing non-vegan products, Marie is making Liz complicit in something she finds morally reprehensible.

      And for anyone who wants to pile on about why it’s not reprehensible, please just learn more about what modern factory farming looks like and imaging your cat or dog living under those conditions. I’m not even a vegan, I wear leather, and it’s something that makes me super uncomfortable. Liz isn’t just choosing not to eat animal products bc of an allergy – she doesn’t want to be part of a system that treats animals this way, yet Marie has dragged her into it 3 years in a row

  19. JFC*

    Marie owes Liz absolutely nothing. Liz is picky (can’t use a freakin’ DOG COLLAR???!! — lady, your dog doesn’t care about your vegan stance), determined to be unsatisfied with any gift and has shown herself to be resentful. If I were Marie, I’d be the one frustrated and exasperated that I keep trying to be nice to my terrible co-worker and all I get is nastiness in return.

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Curious what makes you define someone’s decision to be vegan as being “picky”… that’s pretty dismissive of what is often a major, and well thought-through choice. And if your choice is not not harm animals, why would it be okay to use a leather product for your pet?

    2. Ell*

      Liz cares and she’s allowed to care. This isn’t about what she feeds her dog or something, it’s about what she consumes and keeps in her home.

      Giving your coworkers something they can’t use without even seemingly thinking for one second about it is rude, and Marie has zero right to be exasperated. She gave thoughtless gifts without even bothering to consider whether they’d be appreciated. That is the opposite of what gift giving ought to be about.

      If someone were Muslim and were repeatedly given pork products this would be taken differently and there’s no reason Liz’s preferences and choices shouldn’t be given consideration because people find vegans annoying.

    3. Blahblahblah*

      Well, when YOU are the terrible co-worker to another then yes, the other person will eventually get tired of it and probably be terrible back.

    4. Jennifer Strange*

      Liz is vegan. There is nothing “picky” about that any more than someone is being picky by choosing to keep kosher. Just because the dog doesn’t care about the vegan stance doesn’t mean Liz should have to use a gift that goes against her beliefs (and remember, she declined the offer of another gift and graciously accepted that one).

      For the record, I’m not vegan or vegetarian, but I care about making sure gifts I give to people are things they will enjoy.

    5. Seashell*

      It’s rude to give someone a gift that is offensive to them, even if their pet is using it. I think Marie genuinely didn’t know or think about leather being a problem, but that doesn’t make Liz picky.

    6. Required*

      For every few leather dog collars that are purchased, an animal must have been killed to make the leather. To Liz, that’s why she doesn’t want one because, in her eyes as a vegan, she sees an animal death for a collar when she could easily use one that’s not leather. Sure, the dog doesn’t car, but why would Liz want something that goes against her stance?

      You’re right that Marie doesn’t owe Liz anything, but in the same effect, Liz owes Marie nothing. A gift shouldn’t be a burden, yet Marie is burdening Liz with gifts she can’t use. Liz was gracious to her coworker for the previous 2 years of gift giving, and all she has received is inconsiderate gifts in return.

    7. Dust Bunny*

      It’s leather. Vegans don’t use leather. She is allowed to care and Marie is a clod for not being even minimally observant about this.

      1. mango chiffon*

        Some do use leather. Not everyone who is vegan does it in a lifestyle way. Many people only do it for dietary reasons. I don’t think we have a good commonly accepted term to differentiate this.

        2. Paris Geller*

          I’ve generally seen people use “plant-based” when they’re only talking about diet, and “vegan” when it includes total lifestyle.

          1. Rose*

            Interesting, I’ve never heard that distinction. I’ve known multiple self-described vegans who use leather products (sometimes with the caveat that it must be recycled or thrifted). But I wouldn’t give a vegan friend a leather item as a gift unless I knew for a fact that they were cool with it.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            “Plant-based” is just marketing speak for “psst vegans you can eat this, but also we know lots of people are cranky about veganism so we’re not gonna say ‘vegan’ so more people will consider the product too”.

        3. kalli*

          The term is “dietary vegan” for people who are vegan only for what they put in their bodies.

      2. PurpleCattledog*

        But I could also say vegans don’t have pets!

        Presumably she purchases animal products for her pet dog (she likely feeds it meat – it’s highly likely she also uses things like flea treatment and tick treatments for her pet).

        Given she has a pet dog (at least I assume she has a pet dog or that gift is really weird) it’s clear she doesn’t subscribe to all things that “vegans do”.

        Now Liz absolutely can set her line in the sand wherever is right for her. But it’s understandable that outsiders might not realise exactly where that line is going to be.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Sure, but if you know you’ve messed up gifts to her twice before wouldn’t you take the time to ask her where that line is so that you don’t continue giving her gifts that go against her beliefs? If someone kept Kosher and you kept giving them gifts that go against their religion, would you just throw your hands up and say, “I don’t know where you’ve set your line in the sand!”? I’m guessing not.

    8. Daisy*

      I would push back against this some. I don’t eat chicken, and it’s because I’ve kept pet chickens in the past and so for me it’s like eating cats or dogs. If someone gave me a gift containing chicken, it would be like…someone made it so that a sentient life ended for my benefit, which is not something I can generally stomach.

      It’s a lack of perspective and empathy tbh.

    9. Good Enough For Government Work*

      Speaking as someone with absolutely no dietary restrictions whatsoever – you’re coming off as deeply unpleasant here.

      Wanting to receive a present she can actually use, when presumably she is giving presents to others which meet this minimum criteria is not ‘picky’ or demanding. It’s simply wanting to be treated the same as everyone else.

    10. Lenora Rose*

      If you see the dog collar as an object which was created by an unnecessary animal death, then you can’t help looking at it as an insult, and it’s you, not the dog, who looks at it every day.

      I don’t know, if you buy me three gifts in a row which I absolutely cannot use, *while* claiming you’re trying to choose gifts for me personally, not generic gifts for the office, (AND are careless enough while wrapping to wrap me the wrong gift in the process!) I will begin to think it’s not just innocent cluelessness.

    11. Lightbourne Elite*

      I’m not vegan or even vegetarian and I’d strongly prefer not to use or be gifted leather products.

    12. Brain Sturgeon*

      Right?! No one is entitled to a gift from their coworker. If you don’t care for it, give it to someone who would like it.

      1. Seashell*

        If someone is living their life in order to make sure animals are not killed for their use (which isn’t the case for everyone who eats vegan, but let’s assume this description does fit Liz), saying, “Oh, if you don’t care for it, just pass this dead cow gift onto someone else who likes it” isn’t a great plan.

        Would you tell a Muslim, a Mormon, or a recovering alcoholic to just pass the bottle of wine you gave them onto someone else?

        1. Brain Sturgeon*

          Yes? It’s a gift – the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended – which doesn’t mean you have to use it personally.

          In the case of gifts made of animal – this is a once a year event. The impact on animal welfare from those three gifts is comparatively tiny compared to the vegan choices the receiver has made throughout the year.

          2. Spooz*

            But it’s not some generic group gift that everyone got. Marie specifically bought a specific gift specifically for Liz… specifically.

            If someone had gone to all the trouble to pick out a gift for me, knowing that I don’t drink alcohol, and had gotten a bottle of rose cordial for someone who has a rose garden, a bottle of apple juice for someone who has an orchard, a bottle of limoncello for someone who loves Italy and then a bottle of wine for me… yeah, I’d be miffed. Totally different from “here, I got everyone this same generic bottle of wine, oh whoops, I forgot you don’t drink when I was buying these six identikit gifts”. The latter is frustrating but not personal.

          3. Jennifer Strange*

            the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended

            Three years of being given a gift that goes against your ethical beliefs indicates the spirit in which it was intended doesn’t seem like a good one, even if it’s a case of Marie just being thoughtless. If someone were Jewish and received Christmas-specific gifts three years in a row don’t you think they’d have a right to be annoyed?

          4. Kibb*

            Your concept of politeness is deeply weird to me. And the emphasis on politeness is even more so. People are not required to be polite at all costs.

            Some things are more important than being ultra-polite.

          5. Observer*

            the polite thing to do is accept in the spirit in which it was intended

            One of the problems here is that given that pattern, the “spirit” may actually make things worse. Because it really is looking like the intention was actually negative.

          6. Kay*

            “the spirit in which it was intended”

            Lets talk about that though. If you give an atheist a bible, someone with a peanut allergy peanuts, a vegan meat, a recovering alcoholic alcohol – what spirit was intended there exactly?

            As I see it, the answer doesn’t bode well for you no matter how you spin it.

          7. Lange*

            Beyond Liz being vegan, I’m baffled by the “in the spirit it was given” comment. I hear people who give thoughtless gifts say this a lot. The spirit in this case is either, “I care so little about what you like I won’t even Google gifts for vegans,” or it’s “I’m deliberately going to continuously gift you something that goes against one of your fundamental beliefs.”

          8. Lemons*

            I do agree that coworker gifts just shouldn’t be a thing, but this isn’t an “I don’t like it” situation, this is an “I can’t have or use this, and everyone knows it” situation. The gift receiver is put in the position of not only not getting a gift while everyone else gets one, but having to be gracious about receiving what is essentially garbage. They are very allowed to be irked by that.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Marie doesn’t need to give anyone anything, either. If you can’t be bothered to get an appropriate gift, don’t get any gifts at all, and since it’s crappy to single out one person, don’t get gifts for anyone at the office.

      3. Rose*

        Sure, no one is entitled to gifts from anyone. But if your whole office does a gift exchange every year, and you’re choosing to buy a personalized gift for each coworker, and you know for a fact that one of your coworkers is vegan, AND you’ve messed this up multiple times in the past…it’s pretty inconsiderate not to at least check the ingredients.

        1. Oregon Girl*

          agreed or google vegan snack box or vegan popcorn brand…..it would take less than 5 minutes of effort.

        2. Lange*

          Agree. If you are participating in a gift exchange, both people are entitled to a gift. That’s the whole point

    13. Constance*

      Wow. What a nasty, mean-spirited way to think. You must be very miserable.

      If you were Marie, my advice to the OP and to Liz would be to leave, because they deserve to work with decent, kind, reasonable people.

    14. Rose*

      Liz would be picky if she complained that Marie gave her honey in a glass jar when she prefers a squeeze bottle, or if the dog collar was blue instead of pink. Not wanting to receive items that go against her ethical views isn’t the same as being picky – especially since Marie could have easily googled “is [x] vegan”.

      I’m not vegan, but I take an ethical stance against buying things from openly anti-LGBTQIA+ companies. If my coworker knew this about me and still chose to buy me gift cards to Hobby Lobby or Chick-fil-A three years in a row, I’d be pretty annoyed. (Doubly so if it was a gift they’d picked out specifically *for me* and not a generic gift they’d bought for everyone in the office.) That’s not me being picky, that’s me not wanting to support companies that go directly against my values (or have other people support them on my behalf).

      RE: the dog collar – I don’t think anyone here is arguing that a dog should have an opinion on what material their collar is made out of. But dogs can’t own property, so the collar actually belongs to Liz. Liz is within her right to not want to own items made with animal products.

  20. MK*

    I would think the obvious answer would be to ask Liz beforehand. But then again I am with Mr.Knightley on the subject of surprises

    1. Anonys*

      But this would have only worked if Marie had shown Liz the exact gift beforehand. If she had just asked her: “Would a popcorn set be ok as a gift”? Liz would have likely said “sure”. Popcorn itself is vegan and it’s not like cheese is a standard add-on included in all popcorn sets.

      1. MK*

        Not really. She could have old her she intended to get food treats for everyone and asked her what work for her or where she could get it.

      3. Rose*

        I think it would have made a lot of sense to ask about the honey or leather, since there’s not a firm consensus on whether or not those things are vegan. In this case, though, Marie didn’t need to ask – she could have just looked at the list of ingredients and noticed that it contained dairy, which is pretty objectively Not Vegan.

        Or she could have asked Liz to name a few vegan treats she particularly likes, and then picked something from that list so there’s still an element of surprise. (But also still read the labels in case Liz’s suggestions are things that aren’t always vegan, like chocolate or potato chips.)

      4. Oregon Girl*

        While the grain popcorn is vegan. Butter is an incredibly common topping, as is cheese. Prepared popcorn probably is not typically vegan.

    2. Student*

      This. Especially after missing the mark two years, you’d think Marie would bother to find out what vegan means to Liz. People can argue all they want about some vegans eat or use this or that, so how would Marie know better, but all she has to do is ask. The fact that she asked a coworker instead of Liz directly, and Liz felt bullied by the gifts, leads me to believe there’s more to the story.

      1. Colette*

        Yeah. Lindt makes vegan chocolate, for example. Vegan bakeries exist. Marie could have stuck with her “snack” theme and gotten appropriate snacks.

  21. Ell*

    Marie seems aggressively ignorant here at best. The first two were thoughtless and Liz probably did the right thing in brushing it off. But by the third non-vegan gift which was even more obviously non-vegan than the other two, there is a point where it seems like Marie AT LEAST went out of her way to not check her gift could be used and would be well received. She couldn’t just get her a scarf or a soy candle or something? I mean what the hell?

    Who wants to go through that every single year?

    It does sound exclusive of Liz and an unpleasant day where she’s probably bracing herself to have to slap on a happy face for whatever thing she gets and cannot use.

    I think it’s worth asking if, in fact, this gift exchange IS working. Doesn’t sound like it’s working for Liz. Is anyone else dreading having to pick out and pay for six different gifts for their coworkers? What if you hire someone who doesn’t want to participate for any variety of religious, financial, or personal reasons? It just seems like this tradition is rife with potential for hurt feelings and resentment.

    What about changing to a white elephant where food items are barred? That is how multiple offices I’ve worked for handle it (and food items are barred for religious and allergy reasons) and it still feels festive with less potential for exclusion.

    1. Czhorat*

      That she mislabelled them and gave Liz meats by accident makes me wonder if she isn’t being deliberately offensive; first, there is the insistence on “snacks” as a theme when she knows this is a potential minefield. Second, I assume the popcorn and meats boxes aren’t the same size and shape; a comparable value of popcorn would be a LOT more volume than dried meats and cheeses. It feels like it could have been a deliberate slight or, even if not, is *shockingly* careless.

      1. Colette*

        Yeah, the “accidently wrapping the wrong gift” seems … deliberate to me. Maybe it wasn’t! But that’s pretty far-fetched – do many people wrap multiple gifts and then label them? Because that seems like chaos to me.

      2. KatCardigans*

        Eh, I don’t think that’s really true. I’ve given these types of gift boxes to family before, and they could easily be the same size and heft. The bags of popcorn are often small, and two glass bottles of seasoning are heavy and can approximate the weight of cheese and sausage well enough.

        2. lanfy*

          Sure, but after you’ve twice made the mistake of giving someone a gift that goes against their ethics, wouldn’t you be a little bit careful to make sure you don’t accidentally give them the gift that *really* goes against their ethics?

      3. Observer*

        Second, I assume the popcorn and meats boxes aren’t the same size and shape; a comparable value of popcorn would be a LOT more volume than dried meats and cheeses. It feels like it could have been a deliberate slight or, even if not, is *shockingly* careless.

        Yeah I was thinking about this. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that it was extremely odd that she managed to mistake a package containing a “gift sets with summer sausage, cheeses, mustard, etc.” for a package with gourmet popcorn + seasoning.

    2. Delta Delta*

      But the scarf might be silk. Or wool. And here we go again.

      Regardless, if the gift exchanges continue as they do, Marie would be wise to get Liz something that isn’t tangible, like movie passes or tickets to a local play or something.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          Yes, it’s really, truly not hard to buy something that’s vegan if that’s what you actually want to do. I’m not vegan but have a good friend who is, and it takes just a very quick google search to find lots of options.

      2. Ell*

        No, this is NOT “here we go again” or some endless impossible quagmire. This is not hard. Lots of things are hard, and this isn’t one of them. Why are we doing this?

        It’s a holiday office gift exchange. Silk or wool are wildly expensive. This is a massive reach.

        Step 1: Just get a normal $20 scarf; a soy candle; a pretty notebook; a warm socks; infused olive oil; a cute picture frame; a tote bag; the inoffensive possibilities are endless.

        Step 2: ask yourself “does this contain animal products most vegans do not use;”

        Step 3: voila, problem solved. Zero handwringing about “here we go again” required.

        1. Rose*

          Yeah, it’s really not hard to figure out. If an item contains animal product, the label/tags/packaging will usually say so (even if it’s not food). Wool and dairy are common allergens so they’re usually labelled. Fancier materials like silk or alpaca are seen as fairly high-end, so if a product contains those things chances are it will be advertised on the label (and it’s probably not something you’d buy for a casual coworker gift exchange anyway). If it’s a clothing item, it will have the materials listed on the tag. And so on.

          And if it’s a case of Marie genuinely not knowing that a material/ingredient isn’t vegan (like with the honey), she can easily look it up to check. I don’t blame her for not doing that the first time around, but after it’s happened once or twice there’s no good reason not to be extra diligent.

      3. Kyrielle*

        Movie passes, tickets to a play, a gift card (to someplace that sells many things that are not animal-derived, not to a meat store, please, Marie!), perhaps a book (I’m not sure Marie knows/cares about Liz well enough to get her a book she’ll like, though)….

        1. Valancy Stirling*

          The “please, Marie!” made me chuckle. I can hear the exasperation all the way through the screen.

        2. PurpleCattledog*

          I’m wondering what the price of the gifts typically are. Movie tickets, and plays are expensive gifts where I live. Especially since you’re usually obligated to purchase 2 tickets for such things. This could easily be 3-10x the typical gift exchange value.

          (I’m mostly wondering if these are cheap gifts in the US cause they’ve been suggested a few times and they sound really expensive to me)

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            I mean, Marie got Ron a gift set with sausage, cheeses, mustard, among other things, and those are as expensive as movie tickets at least.

  22. GirlieePop*

    Why has Marie not just stopped getting Liz food-based gifts? There are so many gifts you can buy that aren’t food (and don’t contain leather). Some nice stationary? A set of movie tickets? A gift card to a coffee shop? A book? A small piece of art? A candle (many of which are soy-based now)?

    As a vegan myself, I probably wouldn’t say I feel bullied just based on these gifts (but I don’t know what their relationship is like outside of this exchange), but I would feel very weird and probably just stop participating in the gift exchange. I get that not everybody knows what’s vegan immediately, but 1) how hard is it to read the ingredients list on a package, and 2) how hard is it to google “gifts for vegans” and just buy something that’s vegan online?

    I also think a lot of people don’t realize how much it sucks to be opening a gift in a public setting like that and realizing it’s something you can’t eat/use (especially if people around you know you’re vegan and say something, like, “Oh, Liz, aren’t you vegan? Doesn’t that mean you don’t eat honey?”). There is so much expectation around how we’re supposed to receive gifts, but when someone gifts you something that goes against an ethical stance you hold, what are you supposed to do? And when someone does it three times in a row even after you’ve tried to help them understand? It’s got to be uncomfortable for Liz.

    It just feels like Marie is making this all way more complicated and fraught than it needs to be by being kind of thoughtless. She has so many options other than “buy something and hope it’s vegan” and she doesn’t seem to be using any of them.

    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      I think the idea is that if you’re getting gifts for five other people, you want them all to be similar. If you’re giving fancy popcorn to everyone, you wouldn’t want to give something else to a different person.

      Of course at this point, I’d probably stay away from food just to be safe. And probably even ask Liz just to make sure.

    2. The Original K.*

      Yeah, I agree – just skip the food stuff. I’d probably make a point to do that in this office because everybody doesn’t like everything and it’s too complicated to try to take everyone’s dietary restrictions into account. (I’d also be annoyed at having to add six gifts to my list.)

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Right? Use literally anything else, there are SO many options that cost the same as what she’s spending now. And it takes what….a few minutes to pay attention to the things she already uses and just…get her that? (My coworker is vegan and somebody got him a coffee mug and the specific instant decaf coffee packets he likes. Instant hit.)

        Honestly, this really just feels lazy to the point of being kind of targeted and I get why Liz is upset.