open thread – July 28-29, 2017

by Alison Green on July 28, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. ms42*

    Last week I interviewed for a K-12 teaching position. At the end of the interview, the principal unofficially offered me the position pending reference check. She said she expected to be able to formally offer me the position Friday. I sent a thank you email Friday to follow up on the interview. She emailed back Monday saying that she was currently waiting due to some last minute shifts in staff, but that she would be in touch soon.

    It’s a week later, and I’m running into a problem: I have a job, and teachers report two weeks from Monday. (It’s a mandatory training day for new teachers, so I can’t just say I’ll start late because they offered late.) I’m tempted to follow up with her based on this, but if the delay is external, I don’t want to be a pest, either. Is it reasonable to email today and mention that I would need to be able to give notice ASAP to start on time? Should I stick with just a quick email asking if there’s a new timeline? Or just keep waiting?

    (I’ve never left a job for a job before, so this is all new to me. Thanks!)

    1. Mehkitty84*

      Oh that is a pickle! Are you not able to just attend your current job’s training and then give notice if that is how it works out? Asking for an update would also be okay. I would just phrase it that your current teaching position is starting and you wondered if the time line has been extended for a couple weeks with her decision. Good Luck!

      1. Hedgehog*

        I think ms42 is saying that if she gets the new job, she would have to begin training for the new job 2 weeks from Monday, which would not allow time for two weeks notice with her current job unless she gets a decision today or Monday. If my reading of this is correct, I think it’s legitimate to mention this to the principal.

        1. ms42*

          This is correct! Technically there’s a training day that’s already inside the two weeks that I can’t miss, but I’m hoping to use a PTO day for that, assuming everything is still on track and I get the job. (I’m in a good enough position with my current employer that I have a bit of flexibility with that, but I don’t want to push that bit too far.)

          Thank you!

    2. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Because this is education, I think it would be okay to contact them and mention your timing issue. For non-school year jobs, this would not be a big deal, but for education it absolutely is! I say email. If your new possible employer doesn’t understand that timing here is really important, that should be a big red flag anyway. (Because what administrator doesn’t understand the concept of teachers and the start of the school year?!)

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I agree. As a teacher and administrator, I absolutely understand the need others have to give notice. If the principal with whom you interviewed doesn’t seem concerned or isn’t considerate of this, I see that as a red flag.

        I hope this works out soon! Good luck!

    3. fposte*

      Usually I say no to things like this, but in this case I think it’s fine to nudge and mention your current job as a factor in the transition. I suspect that it’s a chain o’ waiting and she could chase down the next link to move things forward a bit.

      1. Anony*

        Yeah, this ones sounds like a reasonable thing to mention. They have already unofficially offered you the job, so letting them know that the delay in a formal offer could create timing issues seems like a relevant thing for them to know. They may be able to speed it up or the training might not be completely mandatory in this situation.

    4. CAA*

      If I understand correctly, the mandatory training day is at the new job, right? So if they don’t offer you the job today, then you would have to either miss the training for the new job or give less than 2 weeks notice at your current job.

      I think in these circumstances you could contact the principal and ask if there’s an update on the timeline. Say that you are concerned because you need to give two weeks notice at your current job, and if you aren’t able to do that by this coming Monday, then you would have to miss the training day and possibly the beginning of the school year. Then wait and see how she responds.

      It’s possible that if you can’t attend the training that they won’t hire you, but I think it’s pretty unlikely. I know she used the word “mandatory”, but the problem with timing is on their end, not yours. And what do they do if they have to hire a teacher mid-year? I bet they don’t wait until there’s another training event before hiring. If they do come back with an offer on Monday, you can still resign on Tuesday and give a little less than 2 weeks notice. It’s not ideal, but it happens and life goes on.

      1. Lala*

        Actually, if it’s anything like the mandatory training for new teachers that I’ve been through, it truly is mandatory, because it’s about gov’t required/mandated things that their HR will have them go through. When schools have to hire mid-year, they can cobble it together, but that’s rare and a huge, huge pain to do, to the point that it’s unlikely they’ll do it for someone who just says they can’t make it on a given day.

        That being said, principals/academic admin often forget that not everyone applying for teaching positions is on an academic schedule the way they are, so they might assume there’s no conflict w/ giving notice.

        Definitely contact the principal and get some clarity on whether or not you’re officially hired, and explain that you need to be able to give 2 weeks’ notice.

        1. Julianne*

          Yes, and also there are typically school- or district-based policies that teachers and staff are required to know covered then too (even if these are not legal requirements, such as mandated reporter refreshers). I know my school covers things like the disciplinary code and evacuation/containment procedures, as well as going over more cultural things like instructional focus and re-training on beginning of year assessments. They can and do provide that information to new hires outside of that time period right before the first day, but it’s much less thorough and is limited to safety and disciplinary issues, which means new teachers have to learn everything else on the job.

    5. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t think it’s being a pest in this case…it’s pretty reasonable that you would need to know by a certain time–you’re not pressuring them to do anything, just trying to get some relevant info if it’s available.

    6. Sled Dog Mama*

      I would think that a gentle nudge in this case would be a good thing, shows that you’re conscious of needing to be at the new job in time to fulfill your duties.

    8. Backroads*

      I think it’s reasonable to check into this. Even if you wind up leaving your current job for the teaching position (which hopefully is the way this is all sounding), it’s just professional to keep everyone informed. If you have to give less than two weeks notice/miss traning depending on how the chips fall, so be it, but you’ll be better off being open about what’s happening.

      I will say, those new teacher meetings can be pretty important.

    9. Essie*

      Most teachers are required to give 30 or 60 days notice when quitting, so it’s doubly concerning that your principal is being so cavalier about this. If it does come down to you needing to give your full 2 weeks notice to Old Job at the school’s loss of your time, IMO you would be in the right to push back if they protest.

    10. School Psych*

      Just adding to the chorus of agreeing you should follow-up. A lot of times in education, you have to get fingerprinted and background checked again when changing districts. It usually takes at least a week for fed/state background checks to come back, so you would need your official offer very soon in order to be able to start in 2 weeks.

  2. Networking Question*

    I have an online store in a creative field that eventually I want to grow into a part time business, right now it’s just a hobby business. I also belong to a few online artist networking group. In the networking group some of the people I know personally as distant acquaintances, others I have never met as we live all over the country. Outside of the networking groups, surprisingly most people are not on online regarding their artistic talents.

    I have an idea that I would like to run by some of those in the networking groups. To be honest I don’t think the final product will bring in a lot of money, but advertising wise it would be beneficial for the networking artist and for my online shop. This idea would have minimal effort on the artist’s part (I can use what they have already done), I would assume most of the costs associated (causing me to break even in this project) and the artist would get a majority of the profit. I am ok with this as I have it budgeted through my shop as an advertising expense. In addition the artist’s products while different than mine, have the same theme. I should say that in my opinion the artist’s creativity well surpasses mine. In general I am finding that those in the networking groups dread the business side of things, something I excel in.

    My question is, when I contact these people how do I go about doing this. Do I

    Option 1: just say I have an idea I would like to ask them about, give a brief description – I would probably ignore an email like this if the roles were reversed.

    Option 2: go into a paragraph long description, lay it all out on the line – advertising, creativity, financial, benefits for both of us and say if you are interested please contact me. – While this is a “sales pitch” I worry it would just be considered pushy and trying to overtake their independent efforts for their own side business.

    Any thoughts or suggestions?

    1. N.J.*

      Could you do a hybrid of the two? Such as a short email like “Hi X, I’ve been working on a new marketing and sales idea for my online art store through X platform and wanted to run the idea by you for input and possibly to see if you would like to collaborate. The basic idea involves selling X, with a multi-faceted marketing and sales plan involving a, b and c. I believe that our creative projects could be compatible for this idea. If you would be interested do you have a bit of time available for a quick, twenty minute phone call or alternately, for me to send along a more deysuled project description?

      Then you could send along the full plan description email as outlined in (2).

      2. Networking Question*

        I like this solution. I was looking at it as all or nothing, and never considered the way your phrased it. Thanks!!!

      3. Anna Held*

        That sounds perfect, but I’d lead with the part where she’ll get the lion’s share of the profit and you’ll handle the business end.

    2. esra (also a Canadian)*

      As an artist, a brief description + clear bullet list of benefits/details would be best. I’m likely to just skim an email from a stranger/someone I don’t know well, so a 3-5 bullet list of why I should be interested would be most effective.

    3. Tris Prior*

      I also have an online creative side business. I would say give a brief description BUT make sure you’re including the financial details. Even if it’s a brief “I would assume X% of the cost while you assume Y%.” Just because there are so many scams out there, things where we’re asked to provide free product for “exposure,” things with hidden costs that we don’t find out about until later, etc. I would probably not respond to an email like this if it didn’t lay out what I’d be on the hook for financially.

      1. Commenting on AAM*

        I agree, I want to be up front with everything. To be honest since I can use an idea they already created I highly doubt there would be any cost to the artist.

        Side question – while I want to present this as a mutual way to advertise, would you disclose in the initial letter that overall I was not expecting the product make a huge amount of money (yes I need to work on the wording)? As you said I don’t want there to be any surprises. I was think of just saying This product will bring in $x (small dollar) per product, you would receive 80% of the gross sale.

        1. Networking Question*

          OOPS I posted two open thread questions today. My user name above should have been Networking Question, not commenting on AAM. Sorry for the confusion

        2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          “I was not expecting the product make a huge amount of money”
          I do design work on the side. Please don’t say this. It sounds like you are undervaluing the project and therefore the artist’s work. You can say, this is not my full time work, and since I can only devote a limited amount of time to it, I expect the profits to be limited, too.

              1. Networking Question*

                Thanks! It’s a long shot but will be great once developed and implemented. I need to sell the idea as advertising not as a product sale. The joys of starting a business. Best of luck with your venture as well.

  3. Holly*

    I work full time from home. I am also on FMLA Intermittent Disability and approved to miss 3 days every 2 weeks, plus 4 hours every 2 weeks for doctor appointments. I am having a bit of an issue on two things.

    1) My workload is the same as before I went on FMLA disability and I’m finding myself working 10-12 hour days when I am not out in order to make up for it. How do I explain to them that I need my work load to reflect the fact that I am on disability, without sounding like I don’t want to work or making myself look bad?

    2) Since I have been on disability I am finding that my requests for time off are not being approved and I can tell my manager is annoyed when I take advantage of employee perks like summer Friday’s. Am I still entitled to my vacation, sick, personal time, and perks while on disability? If so, how do I appropriately handle that so my requests are approved?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      You need to have this conversation with them – we can’t answer it. I don’t know what summer Fridays are either.

      FMLA approval CAN require that you have to use sick/vacation time for your FMLA leave, and that’s it not leave in addition to it. So that might be factoring in. TBH, as a boss, I wouldn’t love if an employee were out 3.5 days every two weeks and then taking leave on top of it. But you do have protection for the FMLA leave.

      Regardless, you need to have this conversation with your boss and HR.

      1. Anonygoose*

        Summer Fridays (at my work) are where you work extra hours during the week but get to leave early on Friday. Same number of hours per week, but get the advantage of a Friday afternoon off to enjoy the weather and get a jump start on the weekend.

        1. Holly*

          We are not expected to work extra hours during the week. The perk is specifically to give us extra time off on summer weekends. We have “unlimited” vacation. They recommend 20 days but it can be more or less depending on what is going on and approval from your manager. I typically only request about 2 weeks off per year. So, I haven’t been using all my time.

        2. Nervous Accountant*

          Here, every Friday is a half day. It’s split up in to Group 1 and Group 2, so we alternate Fridays.

      2. Holly*

        I don’t really want to take much time off. Just some days to spend with my family. Summer fridays are just half day fridays. Sorry, I should have explained that. I was trying to be brief. My handbook says we don’t have to use our sick/pto time before using leave.

        1. Anony*

          It sounds like you used up your normal vacation/sick days with FMLA. It sucks, but it is allowed. If you want to ask for a reduced work load you will probably need to work all day on Fridays. If you are taking what would be seen as “extra” time off and then complain that you have too much work, it could reflect poorly on you. I’m sorry you are going through this. It is hard to work full time with a chronic illness.

          1. Holly*

            I didn’t use up my normal vacation/sick days. My company offers 100% paid FML time for up to 12 weeks without using any of your other benefits, such as sick or vacation time.

            I also have not complained about my workload (yet). I was trying to figure out a way to do it so that deadlines can still be reasonably met and things don’t fall behind. It’s more a matter of being reasonable and finding ways to avoid impacting my coworkers.

              1. Holly*

                Yes! They really do. They are the best in the business. We get full pay for all FMLA time. They offer maternity/paternity leave which is fully paid for 12 weeks and we can use our vacation and short term disability following that for a total of 20 weeks off. They also offer 5 days berevement for immediate and some extended family and 3 days for pets! We can also take 3 days to bond with new pets and they send care packages for new pets and babies. We get the unlimited vacation, plus 8 days sick time, 3 days personal time, 12 paid holidays per year, and half day summer Friday’s. They also encourage participation in school events for your children and we don’t have to use our vacation time for it. I don’t even have to track my vacation time.

                All of this is why I want to be able to use my perks. I don’t think using some intermittent time should completely disqualify me from all the other benefits I get with my job. They are part of my compensation package and I’m not supposed to be penalized for a disability.

                I might also point out that we are a global company and my colleagues in Europe take months off over the summer in addition to their regular vacation time.

    2. Jessie the First (or second)*

      Sounds like you need to word and structure your FMLA leave a little differently. It sounds as if you have the ability to be out on certain days but your actual hours worked are not decreasing – so it is not the kind of leave you need? You have intermittent leave but not a reduced schedule, and you need both. You need to have the ability to work fewer hours every two weeks, and to have those fewer hours concentrated on certain days. So your leave needs to be reworked to include that in addition to having certain days off, your total actual hours need to be decreased. (That should probably have been obvious, but your employer is sticking to the letter of the leave request, it seems, rather than the spirit.)

      And yes, as to your vacation/sick/personal time, those might not be available. Companies are allowed to have those days off used up by your FMLA leave. You can ask HR what company policy is there.

      1. Holly*

        Interesting. My FMLA form did specify a reduced number of hours when I submitted it. But they did not specify that when I got approval. I assumed it was just wording. I will look into that.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          To be clear, intermittent FMLA covers reduced schedule as well – it’s really supposed to be that your hours are lower. Lower hours can come from having some days off (on a schedule, or as needed for flare-ups), or from having just shorter days sometimes. So you really SHOULD be just working your regular schedule when you are in, and then getting days off, and not working more hours. Your company is being really nitpicky about things, and they shouldn’t be.

          So when I say your leave needs to be reworked, it’s not because you are doing anything wrong or that you requested anything wrong – it’s that your employer sounds like they are being deliberately obtuse.

          Also – I see that you say in another comment that you have unlimited vacation. If that’s the case, well, your FMLA leave would not have used up all your time off. So you should theoretically be able to take days off here and there. But talk to HR – and also make clear that you don’t intend to abuse the non-FMLA days off. But if they allow unlimited days off, then…. I don’t see how they can say “except for the people on FMLA!” (That seems like retaliation for using FMLA, and they can’t do that.) But there may be nuances to the unlimited vacation that you aren’t aware of – like, unlimited but people aren’t allowed to be out every week, for example – so check with HR.

          1. Holly*

            Thanks. I appreciate the clarification. You phrased it much better than I did. That is exactly what I meant.

            To clarify a bit, I don’t think my company is actually being nitpicky. They are genuinely supportive and haven’t directly said I am still expected to work the same amount. But my workload hasn’t actually decreased, which I think is just a lack of forethought on their part. If I can figure a good way to phrase it without implying I don’t want work (because that is not at all the case) I think they will make adjustments.

            Part of it is that I have a new manager, and while she is great, she is a workhorse and pulls 12 hour days all the time. I know her well. We were coworkers before she was my manager. I genuinely like and respect her and I know she is overwhelmed with work. So I am trying not to add my work to it. But at the same time, I just physically cannot work 12 hours a day to prevent that due to my health. So I need to find a way to reduce my workload in a way that is reasonable for both of us. It’s very tough to navigate the situation.

            1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

              I don’t think your manager understands what reduced means. It does not mean the same amount of work in less days. You need to have a meeting ASAP.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My understanding of Intermittent FMLA is that it can be used As Needed. For example, I have a friend who suffers severe migraines that has it and she uses it when she literally cannot function because of her migraines and her employer cannot hold those days against her.

      It almost sounds like you’re using yours as a regular adjustment to your schedule, which I do not believe is the intent. (If I’m misreading, then I apologize). But as Katie the Fed said, you need to discuss this with your HR department.

      1. Holly*

        There is the option to do a regular adjustment to your schedule. In other words, work a consistently reduced number of hours. My doctor did specify that on the form. But what we really were requesting was to be able to be absent when I have a flare (I have fibromyalgia), which is unpredictable, but we estimated they happen every 2 weeks and last 2-3 days. It’s an average. I do not take all of it. I only take what I need. I just meant thats what I was approved for.

    4. HisGirlFriday*

      I agree with Katie. If I were a manager, I wouldn’t love that you’re taking advantage of employee perks when you’re off so much, even if it’s covered by FMLA.

      (I am assuming ‘summer Fridays’ means leaving early, but I could be wrong on that.)

      You need to talk to HR and then your boss about what FMLA means. When I used it last year for mat leave, I had to use any personal/vacation time I had accrued (which I had saved for that reason) and THEN I went on FMLA. I couldn’t use FMLA and then still save my PTO for other stuff.

      Your workload probably should be reduced to match your FMLA time, but talk to HR first, and then your boss.

      1. Holly*

        I’m mindful of how it looks. I haven’t taken any sick or personal days and have only requested one day off in the past since my FMLA was approved. I did request some time next month which was not approved and I think its because of the FMLA. I’m not planning to take off tons of days, but I have a family event coming up and I’d like to participate in that, which is why I asked for the time.

      2. Abby*

        That is discrimination. You can’t prohibit an employee from using other employee perks just because someone is on FMLA status.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          She didn’t say she would prohibit it. But it’s fine to not be enthused about the idea.

        2. Halls of Montezuma*

          Being unexcited about it is different. In normal FMLA cases, other coworkers have to pick up the extra work and it comes across as incredibly tone deaf and unappreciative to take extra time off when if causes them further burden (it doesn’t seem like Holly’s work has gone to others in this case, which does make a difference). Second, there’s lots of little ways this can result in negative impacts (or missing positive impacts) without rising to the level of discrimination or retaliation – you have to return an employee to an equivalent position when they are done with FMLA, but if you’re concerned about their work throughput you give them lower priority projects and not the higher visibility/priority projects, you don’t send them to a conference or on big trips because that would force them to miss doctor appointments nor be away from specialists in the event of a flare up, you don’t give them extra/collateral assignments that could build new skills because they don’t have time for their current workload, etc. In short, they’d stay at the same level instead of building their reputation and resume to earn the next promotion.

      3. Ramona Flowers*

        So if someone needs time off for medical treatment you don’t think they should ever get to relax?

        That’s really not understanding disability.

        1. LCL*

          Management doesn’t have to understand disability to properly administer FML and other leave. And HGF didn’t say employees on FML shouldn’t ever get to relax.

          Having employees on FML or otherwise out ill can be an incredible pain in the ass to the manager. But that’s part of the job. The kind, humane, right thing to do is to work with someone who is ill. But enough businesses didn’t so laws like the FMLA are needed. As managers and human beings we are allowed to get frustrated at all of the people missing from the schedule and ashamed of how disfunctional our unit has become because of short staffing. As long as we continue to treat people decently and comply with the law.

          And OP, it is on you to push back against the 10-12 hour shifts, since you aren’t in the office for the boss to see. You have FML approved-nowhere does it say in the law you have to make up the time you are out ill.

    5. laevian*

      Looking at your comments I get the feeling that you’d do fine to just meet with your manager and (politely) lay out your reasoning, but here’s more advice for you. If at all possible I would suggest that you don’t try to bring these all up at once.

      – If you haven’t already, set up regular checkup meetings with your manager. It will help you get this stuff off your chest without feeling like you’re going into a confrontation. It’ll also help to break these up a bit more so you don’t end up offloading a bunch of troubles on your manager at once.

      – For the specific day you want to take off: “I wanted to ask you about the day I requested to take off a few weeks ago, [vacation date]. Is there a specific reason you can offer me why that date wasn’t approved?” You might also take the time to reinforce the fact that your FMLA time isn’t vacation and is in fact time you’re not capable of working, for various reasons. If you’re comfortable sharing, offer the justification that it’s a family event that you’d been looking forward to and that you intentionally don’t take vacation very often.

      – Generally taking time off, I would try to work with your manager to figure out an acceptable amount of time/days that they’d be okay with you taking off. It might not end up being the same as the unlimited vacation time, but it might help your manager to feel more in control of the situation.

      – As for the workload, I’d go with (what I recall as being) Alison’s typical advice. Lay out the reality of it to your manager. “Lately I’ve been overloaded with work, and I’d like your help in prioritizing which projects I should be focusing on when I have more work than I can handle in a week.”

  4. Snarkus Aurelius*

    We have to talk about yesterday’s Dear Prudie letter.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/dear_prudence/2017/07/dear_prudence_one_of_my_colleagues_is_stealing_my_breast_milk.html

    So many things wrong with HR in this letter.

    1) The workplace is not a court of law so “reasonable doubt” and “innocent until proven guilty” don’t really apply here. HR seems to be acting like they needed to catch this guy in the act.

    2) I’d like to know more about the guy caught using his keycard at the wrong door. How long has he worked there? If he’s worked there for a zillion years, then he knew damn well what the door was to.

    3) I struggle on whether the breast pumping women have a right to know this guy’s identity. If he was caught trying to get into their locked desks to steal money out of their purses, then I could see HR telling them his identity. But, and this goes back to question 2, it’s hard to say how much plausible deniability he has there.

    4) Stealing breast milk is an incredible violation of privacy and bodily autonomy even though the area is secure now. HR has to do better here, but I’m not sure how.

    1. Zip Silver*

      I would prefer HR do due diligence before making accusations. If confirmed though, he should be dealt with.

    2. Antilles*

      I saw that. The keycard to the wrong door thing struck me as super odd. Even if the building is really big, you generally learn all the common places you’ll need to go within a couple months. Sure, every now and then you might run into a reason to go somewhere you don’t really know…but if that was the situation, that could be addressed with a 10-second explanation “Oh yeah, I had to get the files for Ancient Project and I was told they were in the third floor storage room”. Not to mention the fact that most rooms like these are usually labeled

    3. The IT Manager*

      I’m torn. And Prudie missed the point of the letter which wasn’t a continued fear of theft but the lingering feeling of violation.

      I actually don’t think the victims need to know who the suspect is. If someone is found out, they should be told the person was disciplined/fired.

      HR is wrong that they need proof (video) of the theft to fire someone and since the door is now locked that’s impossible unless he goes further and breaks into the room and steals the breast milk. But how much plausible deniability is there from trying a door that’s now locked? As the letter developed I did wonder if it was going to turn out that of the other mothers was stealing the breast milk.

      HR did act to prevent further theft as soon as they were notified. It’s just that this is such a violation of privacy that it will linger and lead the LW to wonder about all the men in her office. (Apparently they have let that much slip.)

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        Well, she did say

        If the other new mothers are also having a hard time feeling comfortable pumping in the workplace, it might be worth bringing this back up with HR, if only for your own peace of mind.

    4. fposte*

      I wasn’t convinced that wanting to get into a private room meant he was the person stealing breast milk; pumping rooms always seem subject to attempts at repurposing by others. But yeah, wild; I don’t know if somebody has a fetish or somebody wasn’t producing enough and didn’t want to go to formula.

      1. k.k*

        That was my issue. I’ve heard (likely here) of people going to pump and finding people napping, on a personal call, etc. I’m glad HR hasn’t told these women his identity, because from the letter it doesn’t sound like there is any proof he was the thief. Since they’ve only started monitoring it now, there doesn’t seem to be any way to know who had been going in there before.

        1. k.k*

          I should add, I’m not saying this man is in the clear. Misusing the room for any purpose is wrong, he had no reason to be trying to get in there.

        2. Amy*

          The pumping room at my last office had a really nice recliner in it as well as a tv and fan. Some people wanted to get in there just to nap or relax.

          1. Nicotene*

            My office coyly called it a “wellness room” which means half the young men here (and perhaps even HR, I have no idea) believe the couch is for lying down when you have a headache / just need a nap. They don’t realize there’s supposed to be a calendar for checking it out. The door does lock but they just think – better for napping!

              1. Cher Horowitz*

                So is ours! I just assumed it was the nonsense associated with being a startup but looks like it is an universal folly!

      2. Kyrielle*

        If it’s the latter, you’d hope they’d reach out – there are bunches of women who have excess but don’t qualify to donate, and many of them are willing to pass along to others who need it. There are health risks there, because milk banks test, pasteurize, and treat what they get, which doesn’t happen in private donations. But anyone who is pouring off an ounce from various mothers’ bottles is clearly not too worried about the health implications! (And if they weren’t producing enough, taking from someone else who may not be producing enough or may be just barely producing enough is really low.)

        I think securing the door so only the mothers could get in has probably addressed the issue, though. I would just be glad that the milk was no longer being taken/messed with. (Easy for me to say. Harder when you are dealing with it, I imagine.)

      3. LBK*

        I don’t necessarily disagree, but if he’s the only person who’s tried to badge in without the proper access since the new system was implemented, that certainly does make him more of a suspect than anyone else, IMO.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, no disagreement. He would be “a person of interest.” But I also think that, however upsetting it is to the victims, this isn’t something that’s likely to be pursued further, and I actually think the company’s making a reasonable call in not disclosing who it is.

        2. Sadsack*

          Unless he was looking to use the room for some other purpose and it was one of the other people nursing who did it.

      4. Sally*

        Yeah, I really am no convinced that he is the culprit. It seems more likely that one of the pumping moms is skimming off the top to bolster her own stash.

        1. Artemesia*

          Really. Maybe I am just unusually squeamish but this would be so potentially unsafe I can’t imagine doing that. This stuff is not pasteurized — Hep B, HIV, and a host of less scary diseases could easily be passed this way.

          1. fposte*

            There’ve been online chains of people mailing the stuff to each other, to say nothing of the occasional attempt to use it in a restaurant. There are enough people who aren’t put off by that that I wouldn’t be surprised if that was what happened here.

          2. Optimistic Prime*

            A lot of people don’t think of it that way. I’ve been mildly interested in this topic from a research perspective, and there are certainly a lot of parents who believe that breast milk is just about the purest substance and/or that the risks of disease are outweighed by the benefits. (There are also people who underestimate – sometimes quite severely – the prevalence of disease in the population that can be passed through breast milk._

        2. motherofdragons*

          If it was one of the other nursers, that should become evident pretty quickly if milk is still going missing after the key card system was implemented.

          1. Hedwig*

            True, but it seems likely that if it was a fellow nursing mother, she would be aware at this point that the jig is up and would stop even though she still had opportunity. So I don’t think it’s sufficient proof that it’s the door jiggler.

          2. Nicotene*

            But now that they know someone’s looking, they might stop! The commenters at Dear Prudie actually suspected the other mom who confirmed the LW’s suspicion. But they are a suspicious lot :)

      5. Falling Diphthong*

        At my office, the pumping room was also the pregnant person napping room, because it had a couch. I imagine it might have been napped on by people who were not pregnant.

    5. HisGirlFriday*

      As a pumping mother, that letter made me see red. Prudie/Mallory missed the whole point (which, as a side note, is becoming increasingly common; the column has gone downhill since Mallory took over.)

      HR is handling this badly all the way around. They don’t need to have caught the man in the actual act of stealing the breastmilk — he was caught trying to access a room that no man has any need to be in. The LW clearly said they were ‘LACTATION ROOMS.’ This isn’t a case of, ‘Oh, I went to the wrong storage closet’ or ‘I forgot that the third-floor copier room was used by nursing mothers.’ This was a straight-up violation of a dedicated lactation space, and the fact that the man tried to use his keycard to get into a place he had no business being is enough for HR to take action.

      I’m torn on whether I think the mothers need to know — as a pumping mother, I’d want to, but I also recognize that there are privacy issues in play here. But HR should absolutely be taking action against the man and at least be telling the mothers, ‘He was caught and disciplinary measures have been taken.’

      1. Snark*

        “which, as a side note, is becoming increasingly common; the column has gone downhill since Mallory took over.”

        I actually disagree with that, I think Mallory is fantastic when she’s in her own wheelhouse. She’s also much wittier and more readable than Emily Yoffe ever was. Thing to keep in mind is, Mallory is a relatively young queer woman with no kids, no spouse, and a professional career largely composed of freelance writing and website community management. Within the bounds of her experience, I think her advice is very good – but just as one wouldn’t necessarily write to Alison on advice about coming out, I think people who write to Prudie about workplace issues are kind of doing it wrong.

        1. fposte*

          Plus she’s really funny. I have low expectations generally when it comes to advice columns with workplace stuff, so I don’t really hold that against Mallory.

        2. Artemesia*

          I find her entertaining sometimes, but she doesn’t do her homework. She often just doesn’t know stuff you’d thing anyone would know and she blunders ahead with opinion. Even staid old Dear Abby back in her day had a stable of experts she conferred with when the question had ethical, legal, nutritional etc ramifications. Prudie just blathers on with advice that may be legally or otherwise dangerous.

        3. H.C.*

          Huh, I don’t necessarily think one Prudie was necessarily better than the other (or even Margo Howard, the O.G. Dear Prudence – sorry, I’m not counting Mr. Stein who only wrote under that pseudonym for 3 months); I appreciate that they all have different writing styles and approaches to various life dilemmas.

          I do agree Mallory is more attuned to queer/sexuality issues, but I also enjoy Emily’s more pragmatic, common sense approach to life’s problems too.

        4. Southern Ladybug*

          I agree. I really like Mallory, but has some blind spots. When I read that letter my first thought was, “Should have asked Alison.”

        5. DDJ*

          I agree! And when I read that column yesterday, I was really wishing that the writer would have submitted it to AAM instead! I so badly wanted to hear what she would have had to say.

        6. Hedwig*

          She may be good in her wheelhouse, but her wheelhouse encompasses a pretty small proportion of the letters she answers.

          1. HisGirlFriday*

            This is much better way of saying what I meant. In her wheelhouse, she’s great, but her wheelhouse is pretty small, and she often takes letters that are outside that wheelhouse and she bungles them.

            I read a wide variety of advice columns, and I don’t always agree with all of them, but I can generally see their points of view. With Mallory, I sometimes feel like she comes off half-thought-out and shooting from the hip. I appreciate columnists who say, “I am not a therapist/lawyer/expert in llamas, so you should consult one.”

        7. Brogrammer*

          Yeah, I think when Mallory is good, she’s really good. And she’s definitely funnier than Emily. My pet peeve with Mallory is when she’s writing on something outside her wheelhouse and just sort of blunders ahead when she’d be better served to consult an outside expert. Also, sometimes it seems like she’s answering a different question than the one the letter writer asked, but I wouldn’t say that’s unique to her.

          1. H.C.*

            Emily has her quips, too. Still remembered this one from her farewell letter

            “When you get a letter about a boyfriend who has committed bestiality with farm animals and you think, “Oh, at least this one isn’t about house pets,” you’ve probably been Prudie long enough.”

      2. Southern Ladybug*

        I, too, had an emotional reaction. I was pumping as I read that letter. And I’m pumping now. (Yes, there is a theme to my breaks!). I struggle to pump enough to feed my child. I’d be furious for the privacy invasion and what I’d perceive an action against my infant. (I’m sure others will think that’s extreme, but I am my child’s food source. Yes I will supplement with formula if I have to – but if I have to b/c of someone stealing my milk I would be beyond angry.)

        I can respect the privacy issues logically and would respect it as a professional. But the human in me would want to know and to know that action was taken. At the very least HR could let the person know that they knew he was trying to enter and remind him it’s a space for lactating mothers. Put him on notice. If it was for a less nefarious reason, fine. He’d likely be mortified and explain. If not…well, he’s on notice.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think it’s important to know that advice columnists aren’t usually marketing themselves as gurus who know everything — just as someone with a point of view and hopefully good sense who will weigh in on your dilemmas. Carolyn Hax has been really careful to say she’s not a therapist (it’s even in her bio blurb, I think). And I know I definitely don’t know everything, and wouldn’t want anyone to think I’m holding myself out as someone who does. And of course, by definition it can sometimes be hard to know what you don’t know.

        So I would cut all advice columnists some slack! That said, there’s definitely a point where someone gets it wrong enough that they lose credibility. (The Washington Post work advice columnist hit that point for me in like week two of writing.)

        But I love reading Mallory’s writing.

        2. H.C.*

          On the note of work columnists, I miss Businesslady (formerly of The Toast, now seldomly at The Billfold)

            1. Businesslady*

              I miss The Toast SO much–its surprise reappearance was indeed all too brief.

              But it’s awesome to hear that someone wants to hear more from me! I’ve actually been publishing a lot lately, but it’s kind of all over the place and not necessarily easy to find. Here’s a link roundup: http://wp.me/p8taRz-aJ.

              Thanks so much for the kind words, it means a lot.

              (And since I know all these links will throw things into moderation–hi, Alison!)

      4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Not being snarky or sarcastic, just genuinely curious: What do you think an appropriate disciplinary measure would be for attempting to enter a lactation room (when you’re not there to breastfeed or pump)?

      5. Snarkus Aurelius*

        This is how I felt but couldn’t articulate. If the sign on the damn door tells you what the room is, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    6. GuitarLady*

      I really wish Prudie (and other advice people) would stop answering work questions on their columns, whenever one comes up, like this one, all I can think it, that’s not great advice, this person really needs to ask Allison! There was another one recently where someone asked how to get a $10,000 raise when they found out others in the field were making that, again something much better answered here!

      1. OhNo*

        Every time I see a work question on another column, I have to ask myself “What would Alison say?” Sometimes the answers are spot on, but a lot of times they’re missing nuance that is work-specific (or management-specific).

        I would have loved to see Alison’s response to this one, especially.

        2. Nicotene*

          I just posted below about a work one to NYMag’s Ask Polly (who I love, but not necessarily for work advice) that I would have liked to have heard Alison answer. Great minds, etc!

    7. Snark*

      That letter was so mindblowingly bonkers. It’s easily as amazing as anything Alison has ever posted.

    8. AMT123*

      I was most surprised that this focused only on the violation and theft (not downplaying those at all!) but no one has mentioned that the breast milk has been tampered with – for myself, I would no longer feel comfortable feeding my baby breast milk that someone else has removed some from without my knowledge, there’s questions of sanitation, etc. That they have not done more about this seems a little crazy!

      1. JustaTech*

        This was my thought too! At first I thought whole bottles were missing (you’d notice that right away) but someone opening the bottle and taking a little out? Ooh, the contamination risk would squick me out so much!

    9. Gloria Burgle*

      My gut reaction was that it was another pumping mother that was stealing the milk. The guy trying to get in is awfully suspicious, but, as others have pointed out, some people try to use these rooms for naptime, personal phone calls, etc. My concern would be that, by focusing on this guy, and taking precautions to keep him out, they are not making things harder for the real culprit (if it is indeed another mother.) Of course, the whole locking the fridge thing might put a stop to it because the mother would then know she’d be more likely to get caught.

      Regardless, if I were the LW, I think I’d start keeping my milk somewhere else, within my sight. (Cooler or fridge at my desk). It’s too precious to take chances on.

      On your points #1 and #2, while I agree that the workplace is not a court of law, I don’t agree that the guy needs to be fired based on this alone or even if he’s worked there forever and knew what the rooms were for.

      Andplusalso, Mallory is not at all qualified to give work-related advice…

      1. Snark*

        She’s great at work advice where it’s centered on interpersonal relationships, but just knowing a little of her professional background, her experience with being a career professional or a boss is pretty limited.

      2. Book Lover*

        I assumed it was another mother, also. I always kept pumped milk in my office with freezer packs, but I know that isn’t an option for everyone.

    10. kittymommy*

      It’s he trying to make brownies???

      Seriously though I think it’s at least two different issues. 1. The guy is trying to enter a secure, restricted access room. That to me is a security problem and seeing as a key card is now in play, should be fairly easy to narrow down and deal with. 2. Is the theft of the milk. That would be a little harder to pin down to a particular person unless there is video involved (seeing as the key card was not in effect when the thefts happened). It’s super creepy, but I’m not sure there’s a good reason objectively for them to know his identity, as long as this stops

    11. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way!*

      To me it’s almost a safety issue. If HR is inclined to believe this gentleman was the culprit but couldn’t do anything because they don’t have definitive proof, I would go back to them and ask them if they feel he would/could become a threat to them. Sometimes when people have “fetishes”, removing access to them can cause people to become more extreme or escalate their attempts (waiting for a mom to enter/leave the room to gain access). So maybe in framing it as “should I be worried about my safety” will allow HR to perhaps take a couple of additional steps to ease the mind of the mothers.

      1. Anonymous Ann*

        Seems like quite a leap from ‘guy who once tried to open the door to the lactation room’ to ‘fetishist’ who may harm nursing mothers.’ He could’ve been looking for someone or gotten the rooms mixed up (I’ve been at my not-huge office for six years and still forget what rooms are what sometimes). Even if he was attempting to misuse the room for a nap/phone call or worst case steal milk, he is now no longer able to enter the room. I would wait to see if additional attempts to enter are made (by this man, or anyone else), and if milk continues to disappear since access was taken away from non-nursing mothers. You can’t really punish someone when the only thing anyone KNOWS he did was try to open a door…

    12. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Wow. Maybe there’s plausible deniability with the guy who tried to swipe his key card, but, that looks crazy suspicious.

      1. Halls of Montezuma*

        Eh, if it was only once, I disagree. I’ve worked in the same office complex for years and last week suddenly found I no longer had swipe access to a lab I’m in once a week. Wrong, turns out I was one door down from the correct room and just hadn’t been paying attention. Since I thought I was in the right place, I didn’t look at the sign at all. Sure, I’m an absent-minded scientist type, but I don’t think I’m the only one of those around (or that it’s limited to STEM folks).

    13. Anony Oz*

      Interestingly a lot of bodybuilders seek out breastmilk to supplement their growth. You could put guys looking to bulk up in this category too.
      It wouldn’t necessarily have to be a male with a fetish.

      It’s still terribly wrong to steal in any case, but somehow thinking of scenarios more like this make it less creepy.

    14. Alice*

      Hang on — there’s nothing in the OP’s letter saying whether or not there’s any sign on the door, and it seems to me that “trying to get in” could cover the guy swiping his card once because he thought it was the stationery cupboard or he was trying to get into 303 and this is 304. Of course HR or security should look into it, but is there any reason to think that they haven’t?
      And what would OP intend to do if HR were willing to tell her the identify of the suspect?

    15. Zip Zap*

      If someone is stealing milk, it’s a health and safety issue. There are some infectious diseases that can be transmitted through breast milk. Depending on the specifics, the intended recipient(s) of the milk could also be at risk if this means they might miss a meal. Breast milk is a finite resource. I don’t know that much about it, but couldn’t you run out? Maybe if it was a larger baby or more than one? Definitely not to be taken lightly.

  5. Christin*

    I have a coworker who deals with customer support and she seems incapable of typing a single question mark. “Teapot report not uploaded yet?????” “Meeting today 2 hours?????” I assume she does this to convey a sense of urgency but I gotta admit it generally has the opposite effect. Is there any way to tell this person to knock it off?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I recently had to address an issue with a coworker who liked to use “?!?” in her emails. I also assumed she used it as a way to convey a sense of urgency. My script (with the caveat that this was to someone who is new to the workforce):

      “This is a small thing, but I’ve seen it in a few emails from you – try to avoid the ?! in professional emails, as it comes across as both chaotic and demanding, which is not the tone you want to go for when asking for a favor :)”

    2. extra anon today*

      Not that it would work but I am The Type of Person who would respond with double the punctuation. “Report almost ready!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    3. SeptemberGrrl*

      My two cents: you have to pick your battles. Is that really something that is so horrific you need to have a confrontation about it? If there is some larger issue with this person that you are not including in your post, that might be worth discussing but otherwise, this is so minor. Let it go. Life is short. This doesn’t harm you in any way.

      1. Christin*

        This is where I ultimately fall. I forgot to mention she tends to cc everybody on these emails so, on the one hand, she tattles. On the other, take the higher ground and let people make up their own minds.

        1. OhNo*

          Ooh, yeah, especially if she uses cc indiscriminately to share things around, best to avoid it. I can just picture her replying and cc-ing everyone else in the office with some kind of “No one else minds! You just don’t like me! Don’t be such a buzzkill!” tirade.

          1. Drew*

            She would not do that.

            She would say “No one else minds!!!!! Don’t be a buzzkill!!!!! :) :) :)”

    4. LCL*

      Respectfully tell her that business communication uses standard punctuation. And that you won’t respond to any more emails with multiple punctuation. And ask her if there is a way she would prefer to communicate, or if there is a problem in your communication.

      1. fposte*

        You really can’t refuse to answer a colleague’s questions because she includes too many question marks, though.

    5. Nanc*

      Did you know your ? key is stuck????????

      Sorry, that’s not helpful. If it’s confusing as to what she’s trying to communicate I would just have a conversation with her or reply to the email and say are you asking an actual question, requesting an action, or what. If it’s just the keyboard equivalent of saying like and you know and up-talking at the end of every sentence than you may not be able to break her of the habit.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Actually, I might use this advice if it were me. Depends on the workplace and my relationship with the person. If you can use humor to get your point across, then I’d go for it.

        I do think it’s fine to let her know that the extra question marks add confusion or make her message read differently than perhaps she meant the message to read.

      3. EA in Partly Cloudy Florida*

        Or better yet – “Would you like me to help you open an IT ticket to get your keyboard fixed/replaced due to the sticking ? key?”

    7. Snark*

      I have a colleague who overuses….ellipses….in the oddest spots…and for no good reason…and it drives…me bonkers.

          1. Mockingjay*

            People, you can’t post great one-liners like these! I share an office now and have to clap my hand over my mouth so my coworker doesn’t hear me. *Snicker.*

      3. Anonygoose*

        Ugh my mom does this to end sentences when she emails me. It makes everything seem like she’s judging everyone or making everything a really big deal.

        “Your brother decided to go back to school…he’s dating a new girl, she seems nice…your dad said he called you the other day…maybe he already told you all this…

        Drives me NUTS but then I find I start doing it too without thinking when she’s been emailing me a lot. It’s awful.

      4. Emilia Bedelia*

        Maybe we work with the same person!

        I also have a colleague who is incapable of spelling/typing properly. I already dislike working with her, but getting “mnay thkkans for you quicklyy help, Emlia! ;9” when I drop everything to help with her urgent requests does NOT help.

      6. afiendishthingy*

        me too… except this .. is not an ellipsis ….. neither is that one….
        Why would you end a question like this..

        Thanks……

        (I can’t handle it.)

        1. afiendishthingy*

          This person is the office manager at our other location, about 40 minutes from mine. She also hung a sign on the door to their department that says “Please remember to sign in and out” (quotation marks hers. I can’t remember if there are any periods and if so how many). I really want to write -Dorothy Parker or
          -Socrates after that but she is crotchety and I’m afraid of getting caught

      8. Panda Bandit*

        One of my relatives does that. He can even find a way to fit them in on one-word responses.

    8. FormerOP*

      Exactly what Giraffe said. I have had to do the same and it worked: “Writing XYZ in emails comes off as ABC. Please stick to LMN in emails for our company. Thanks!” I think keeping things light and neutral really helps prevent a defensive response.

        1. fposte*

          I wouldn’t. The person who uses three question marks internally is an annoyance that I’d expect colleagues to shrug off. Making it sound like she’s off policy when really she just bugs you makes this a bigger deal.

        2. FormerOP*

          I’d phrase it differently if it is just a coworker, rather than a direct report. And of course with the caveat that this only applies to email-heavy jobs where communication style really matters. But yeah, at this point, how people write in emails is part of how we present ourselves at work and if someone comes off poorly it is good to let them know. For coworkers, treat it as almost a broccoli on the tooth thing.

    9. all aboard the anon train*

      I do that when I text, but it’s usually to say something like, “can you believe that happened?????” I would never do it in professional correspondence.

      Sometimes these writing styles are quirks. I know I have a tendency to over use parenthesis and dashes (which I know drove my thesis advisor crazy in grad school) but it can be a hard habit to break. I think this might be something where you have to pick your battles. If it bothers you enough, I think you could just ask, “I’m just curious, is there any reason why you use so many question marks in your emails?”

      1. EA in Partly Cloudy Florida*

        I’m guilty of parentheticals (and nested parentheticals) in professional communication. I blame it on too many years of writing functions and If-Then statements in Excel. That, and having learned Scheme as my first programming language.

    10. Sugar of lead*

      When management at my job texts us about picking up extra shifts they do the exact same thing: can you work a night shift monday????? Unless this person is really close to you I’d just roll my eyes and live with it.

    11. De Minimis*

      My former boss used to do something like this, instead of just asking when something might be ready, she’d send an e-mail with a subject like “Budget report?” and then have “??????” in the body of the e-mail. Of course, when it’s your boss, not much you can do.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Ooh, this is much worse than the OP’s coworker. This is rude; the OP’s coworker is just unprofessional.

    12. Stranger than fiction*

      Well, I’m a smartass and my work environment is somewhat lax, so I’d reply asking her what’s up with all the question marks and add like two entire lines worth of them myself.

    13. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’m in agreement that you should let it go. If it’s really driving you crazy, maybe bring it up with this person’s manager to see if they’ll say something.

      1. Product person*

        Talking to the manager sounds overkill to me. I’d let go, but if it was bothering me too much, I’d have a face-to-face conversation with the person, and say something like,

        “You may not have realized, but when you include multiple question marks in your emails, it can look like you’re criticizing people for not having already provided the information you’re asking for. Just a perception thing that you might want to be mindful of in the future.”

    14. Mona Lisa Vito*

      My mother-in-law is an Administrative Assistant for a few VPs of a very large international company. In email, she does odd things like put spaces between her words and exclamation points, like this !! Every time !! She will also take an existing email thread from, say, last week and change the subject line to a new subject and start an entirely new conversation. This is all seen in personal correspondence (but sent from her work email account), so I have no idea if she’s doing this in business communication as well. What do you think? Worth mentioning that she should probably change these habits or let it slide since she’s in her mid-sixties and only has a few years left before retirement? I presume that if her VPs had an issue, they’d mention it to her directly, but that’s not always the case. I would hate for her to look like she’s out of touch with the norms of digital communication given her age.

    15. Zip Zap*

      I would ignore it unless it really, really pushes your buttons. Eventually, someone will say something. You’re better off being the easy going, tolerant co-worker in that scenario. Or you could say something in person.

      1. Zip Zap*

        Agh, my phone went crazy and submitted this before I was done typing. I was going to suggest bringing it up in person, not my email, so it doesn’t sound confrontational. You could just ask why she uses multiple question marks and then let her know, in a helpful way, that there are certain standards for business emails. The mentor not critic approach.

        1. Zip Zap*

          One of the things I learned in the business world was that bad news (or anything that could be construed as such) should be given in person. If that’s not possible, pick up the phone. Email, chat, and text messages should be reserved for neutral and positive things. Except in circumstances where there needs to be a written record (resignations, official complaints, etc).

  6. LO*

    I have an interview on Monday for a contract recruiter position with a staffing agency. I have done light staffing related work (phone screening/interview set up/orientation activities in sales and environmental consulting environments), but do not have years of experience in this industry. Can anyone with experience in recruiting share some insights with me about the industry? Questions I should ask at the interview? Things to watch out for? Is starting off at a staffing agency a good way to build transferable experience? I would eventually like to do recruiting in an HR/on boarding capacity.

    1. periwinkle*

      I haven’t been in that world for a long time, but still read an amazing site called Fistful of Talent. The contributors post about different aspects of HR but the strong focus is on recruiting (both internal and agency). I recommend spending some time this weekend exploring the site and absorbing a wealth of insights. I don’t always agree with their perspectives but I do always learn something!

    2. Chicago Recruiter*

      Is it a recruiting role at a staffing agency or would you be contracted through the agency working for a company?

      1. LO*

        In the beginning, I would be contracted to work for the agency working with a specific company. After a time, I would be hired directly to the agency to do full-time recruitment.

        1. Chicago Recruiter*

          Keep in mind that agency recruiting is a sales job, not an HR job. If you aren’t comfortable cold calling and using aggressive sales tactics on both clients and candidates, it won’t be for you.

          1. Champagne_Dreams*

            All recruiting is sales, agency or not. Recruiting is half marketing/sales, half HR. Even if you’re not selling to get new clients for an agency, you’re selling candidates on the gig and hiring managers on the right type of person they should be looking for / the right way to market the position / the right way to interview candidates. You’ve got to have a persuasive bent.

    3. Recruiter*

      I’ve been working for a staffing agency for 3 years. It’s a super hard job due to the lightening fast pace and the fact that it is a sales job as well as dealing with a lot of facets of HR. The questions I would ask in the interview would be:
      1. Clarify wage and commission structure. For example, I am salaried at a fair rate for not having a degree, and even though my corporate pays out a lot of commissions, the branch I work in is very small in a highly competitive market so I don’t earn a lot of commissions. Like I haven’t had any in 6 months.
      2. Ask about dress code. Some agencies require you to wear a blazer and slacks/skirt every day. No thank you! My agencies is nice casual and allows dressy jeans since we handle a wide variety of positions from light industrial up to professional and tech jobs.
      3. How many hours do they work regularly? Being salaried in this industry can eat you alive because the work is never done and there is NO downtime. If you aren’t constantly working like crazy, you aren’t making money. So 70-80 hours can happen all the time. I refuse to do that thank goodness and I’m good enough at my job that they don’t push for it. I’m the exception though.
      4. Are you responsible for finding and landing new companies on your own or just for feeding leads to a sales manager?

      Best of luck to you!!

  7. Zip Silver*

    I wonder if this is common or if y’all agree/disagree. I work in a field where I have about 20 other managers don’t the same thing I do in other locations, and we all have the same boss. I’ve recently received some advice from others in the field (not necessarily from people in my company) that it’s best to aim for mediocrity, that way you stay off the radar for being an underperformer (a good thing), but also not to overachieve, because you’ll set yourself up to have to continue operating at that level year-over-year, and it’s worse to drop from top to middle than to aim for the middle consistently. At the moment, my goal is to be a top performer and promote up/job hop in 3-5 years.

    Thoughts?

    1. katamia*

      I understand their logic, especially if the field doesn’t seem to handle people taking sick leave/needing to leave early for family emergencies/whatever very well. That advice probably works well for some people. But their career goals also might not be in line with yours–if they’re planning to stay in the same place/job for a long time, then that advice makes a lot more sense than if they all want to keep advancing the way that you want to.

      1. De Minimis*

        Echoing what katamia said. This is an okay strategy if someone wants to stay in the same job/company long term, and if they don’t think they would succeed at a higher level. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’d use the word “adequate” instead of “mediocre.”

        If the person giving the advice has been there a long time, I guess it’s worked for them….

    2. msmorlowe*

      I would assume that anyone telling you this is following their own advice, and I really can’t see why anyone else would want to follow advice given by someone who describes themselves as mediocre.

      1. Liz2*

        Well there’s a bit of honesty to it. No one is truly a super star at everything. And I agree if their career goals are simply to be the consistent solid work in work out person forever- well every team has one of those pretty much and it works fine for them.

        It’s similar to advice to people to not perform so good they get promoted to management- because management doesn’t really do the job they are great at.

        All depends on where you want to go.

    3. all aboard the anon train*

      I’m starting to believe the mediocrity bit, only because I’ve always aimed to be a top performer and it’s made managers take advantage of me. I’m the one who gets more work without a promotion and everyone gets the same raise/bonus/perks so an underperformer gets the same compensation as the top performer, but the latter does more work. When promotions come, they skip over me because they don’t want to have to replace me with someone mediocre or underperforming. And then when I’m burnt out and disgruntled, if I start to slip up, that comes down harsher on me than it would someone who is mediocre.

      It’s hard because when I start a new job, I want to show the company and team that they were right in hiring me, but it always ends up backfiring.

      1. Kix*

        Preach, All Aboard! This is my current situation. I’m also held to a different standard, and I’ve recently come to the conclusion that working hard and being good at what I do doesn’t get me anywhere. I wish I had an answer other than “find another job.”

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          Yes. I’m held to a different standard than my coworkers who are underperformers and basically it comes down to me feeling like I’m being punished for being a good worker while slackers are being rewarded for bad behavior.

          1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

            I hear ya, Anon Train. It’s the same with me. I guess it’s true- No Good deed goes unpunished.

          2. Nic*

            This this this this this. It’s hard not to be bitter at CurrentJob where my efforts are appreciated because of how many times just those things happened at OldJob.

            “Oh great! We doubled your workload and you managed to still get it done at the quality level we require, so now we’re going to double it again!”

        2. A Person*

          Can I join? I’ve had two miserable conversations with my boss in the past two days. Somehow, he expects me to both put work into improving the culture/professionalism of the office (he has told me I’m the most knowledgable and skilled of the staff), and not step on anyone’s toes whilst doing so. I wish I could just schlub along and not care but my god, it’s driving me up the wall. I just want to be left alone so I can quietly prep for the training course that’ll get me out of there.

          (I had a freelance job Monday. It was so lovely. Competant staff doing useful things. So amazing.)

      2. Tris Prior*

        I’ve had this experience too. I was always a top performer, and all that got me was more work, more overtime, worse clients and worse projects because “no one can handle this as well as you can,” and literally being expected to save the company from having projects taken away from us.

        I ended up completely burned out, and I left when my “reward” for all that work was a pay cut (but I was supposed to be grateful because they laid off almost my entire team but spared me).

        1. Artemesia*

          I have been there too because is was ‘reliable’ and produced great work. If you are in an environment where promotion is not possible than it might be good advice; but if you want to build a career then you have to be aggressive about working with bosses to map out career progression not just sit there and continue to take on jobs no one else wants or can do and grind out more work. There is a line between office drudge and up and comer; it is of course blurred by sexism most places where bright and shiny young men may be guided upward and women taken advantage of, so women need to be pretty overt about their career development and not wait to be singled out.

          In the long run I got promotions that others of my sort did not as a result of my work but I still made a lot less and worked a lot harder than many who didn’t do that quality of work.

        2. all aboard the anon train*

          I feel you. My manager must have a second sense knowing I’m complaining about this because I just got an assignment because I’m his “top person” that another coworker slacked off on since May, and now needs to be turned around by mid-August or the department will lose a budget item. So, I’m being punished for being a “top worker” by fixing a coworker’s mistakes and inability to do their job and that coworker didn’t even get reprimanded.

          So glad it’s Friday.

          1. Soupspoon McGee*

            Oh geez. I had a manager who told me we worked at a place that, once you pulled a rabbit out of a hat, expected you to constantly pull rabbits out of hats. Sounds like you’re in a similar scenario.

      3. Accountant*

        So much, this!! My husband was stuck in the same job for years and would get passed on for promotion after promotion because he was too good at his job. That’s what they would actually say to him when he would ask why he didn’t get the promotion he put in for! He ended up getting frustrated and left, well they called him a year later to offer him the job he always put in for because no one else worked out! It’s too bad that people don’t just get rewarded for hard work, smh!

      4. DDJ*

        The perception that “extra work doesn’t count for anything, so why should I bother?” is so, so terrible. Not having that perception, but the fact that companies allow it to be perpetuated. Unfortunately, you might not know if a coworker received less of a raise or a smaller bonus or is on a PIP or has received a reprimand (unless you’re in a job where those things are public knowledge somehow?)

        I think, unfortunately, that you might be dealing with crappy managers. Great managers don’t stall an employee’s professional development because “they’re too valuable.” That’s some nonsense is what that is. If you have top performers and you want to retain them, you make sure they have opportunities to progress in their careers. I mean, you’d think they’d WANT to promote you, so that you could have some say in who the person filling your role would be. You could be training another amazing, top performer and instead your management team is remaining short-sighted. I’m sorry that you feel that way. And I truly hope that you’re able to find a company that values the work ethic you’re bringing aboard.

        1. all aboard the anon train*

          I’ve worked at three companies where this has been the case. Where raises/bonuses and PIPs are known (it’s always been announced and listed & everyone gets the same amount) and where people, myself included, have been told no promotions because no one else could do the job as well.

          I’m just starting to think that’s the way it is because it’s always come from the top down each instance.

          1. DDJ*

            That’s terrible, I’m sorry to hear that. How demoralizing! That’s bad managers managing bad managers managing bad supervisors.

            I’m thankful that my company’s bonus program actually factors in results from performance reviews, and the performance review process is such that no edits can be made to the document unless they’re signed off by the employee (it’s an electronic, third-party document system), which means you can’t have a situation where someone has an awesome performance review, and then their manager edits the review to put the employee in a less favourable position so they don’t have to give a raise/bonus/promotion.

            That being said, a lot of people get rated as “achieved expectations” when they’re actually NOT achieving what they should be, but I think it’s because there are some managers that don’t want to have those difficult conversations.

            I’ve read a few comments on AAM about how coming from toxic work environments really skews your view of the workplace and how things are “supposed to be.” As I said before, I really hope that these are three really unfortunate instances where you’re being taken advantage of, and that your next opportunity puts you into a much better position for growth and development.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      I’m not going to say this is right or wrong, but I know where it may be coming from due to some experiences of people close to me.
      I have one friend in particular who seems to get taken advantage of job after job. He’s the type that always goes above and beyond, yet instead of getting promoted, he just gets more responsibility piled on him. In some instances, it’s clear he outshines his boss, and they feel threatened and they try and keep him under their thumb so the top level mgmt doesn’t see it, and sometimes even take credit for his work.
      So whoever is saying this may have had similar things happen to them.

    5. CAA*

      I think this comes down to how do you want to see yourself and how do you want others to see you? This is a very personal thing, but I just feel happier overall when I know that I am giving my best effort to the employer who hired me and is paying me in good faith, and that I am doing the best that I can as a manager of the people who report to me. I actually don’t care nearly as much about how the higher-ups see me, but so far at least, acting with integrity has mostly worked in my favor with them too.

      I can understand the point of view that says employers don’t care about their employees and will happily let people go with no warning; and that people who don’t work as hard still get the same goodies, so why should I even try. I have felt that way too on occasion, and there have definitely been times that I’ve had to consciously adjust my attitude and remember to stay professional while working on getting into a better position.

    6. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I have to say that it depends upon your environment. In my current situation, being mediocre is the only way to go. Initiative, hard work, a strong work-ethic, and dedication are not rewarded. Further, as someone said above, staying off of the radar and being a “yes” person is the best bet where I work.

    7. LKW*

      It’s entirely dependent on your goals. If you want a promotion then it’s typical to demonstrate that you can meet the demands of a higher level permission. If you want to job-hop, and if you plan to use your current supervisor as a reference, then be somewhere towards the top of the pack.

      You should also think about how your company operates. Are top performers kept where they are but just given more work with no title, money or other reward or are they rewarded / promoted?

      If you want to meander, then mediocrity is a fine path. I see nothing wrong with it. Eye rolls are triggered when people who are mediocre want unearned promotions.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think the word “mediocre” is problematic here, because you’re really talking more about being adequate, or average. And I’ll just put out one bit of anecdata here… I knew someone who worked on a line in a factory, and the long-timers always complained about the newbies who worked super duper hard to beat their quota and get a bonus. Which suddenly made sense when TPTB said “since it’s obviously possible to produce quota+10%, that’s your new quota.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto here. My father was a designer. Famous Employer told him he had to help reduce costs by x %. So he did that. His reward for doing well was the following year his goal was 2x %.
        A bit of myopia for this company, I thought. People could have been doing productive work instead of reinventing the wheel and it became a huge time sink as people struggled to reach their higher goals. It also really angered people and there is no accurate measure for how much angry employees cost the company. Meanwhile my father had $2k in precious metals sitting in his desk drawer that he was not allowed to turn in.

    9. A Person*

      It depends on what you want.

      I have two co-workers at my level who are quite happy to plod along and stick with their current gig because the work-life balance is good, the money is pretty good for the amount of work and the level of responsibility is fairly low.

      On the other hand, I’m prepping for the next level qualification and considering long term trajectories which honestly, my current company won’t provide.

      As for the drop from the top to the middle point, it happens. The main things are to keep your options open, be willing to learn/adapt and take precautions for your wellbeing.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      My number one thought on this is ALWAYS do your own thinking. Do not allow others to sway you.

      It’s best to think about these things when we are at home and away from biased influences.

      I have been that hard worker, you know, the one the boss says, “I can put three people on it or I can put you on it.”
      I’ll tell you, first hand, it does sharpen you. Done for a sustained period you can feel yourself zooming out beyond your coworkers’ understanding of the job, you know the nuts and bolts of the job like you know how to breathe.

      Then you go home and fall down. The day is over.

      That is when I learned something I feel is very important. One should work at a sustainable pace. Set a pace and keep it day in, day out and year in, year out.
      Okay, so what does sustainable pace actually mean? It means that if you give so much of yourself at your job that there is nothing left of you when you come home, then you have given your employer too much. In an odd turnabout, it’s unethical because you are cheating YOURSELF. Quality of life and quality of health are actually more important than a job. If you can’t function when you get home or if you can only do the barest minimum to get by then you are depriving yourself of having a life. Annnd you are depriving your loved ones of your company and of the benefits of having you in their lives. This is not right.

      There are variations in pacing. Some people can sustain a higher pace than other people. Some people are willing to take on harder stuff and they are actually fine with it. We can’t look at the person next to us and use that person as a gauge for what we should do. We each have to figure it out for ourselves.

      OP, you have a plan. My FIL used to say, “Sometimes you have to keep your own counsel.” Stick to your plan, OP. You have a goal, an intent in mind. Keep following it.
      Last, my wise friend used to say, “Watch out for people who tell you to do less, be less or have less. Watch out for these folks. Every time you hear that ask yourself, “What is this person’s motivation for telling me this?”

      For myself, I have days that are much more productive than other days. Some of that is my own doing and some of that is circumstances surrounding me.

  8. Rude Office Staff*

    Hi Ask A Manager

    I have question about business practices of a company used for a personal issue. Before I go into detail, I want to preface this by saying in my personal life I am very careful with money. I have a lot of financial goals and every penny is allocated accordingly. I am not one for a spontaneous shopping spree, wreckless spending, eating out often. I have a budget and I stick to it.

    I had to go to a medical specialist. My company had switched medical insurance recently. In the long run it was beneficial out of pocket wise, but short term my costs were all over the place and higher than expected.

    I was having hard time figuring out costs, what was covered, etc. Before making the appointment I explained the situation and specifically asked if they had a payment plan option. I was told that most patients paid in full, but a payment plan should not be a problem. I was told verbally I could mail in what I could. I asked for this in writing, but was told it is not necessary. Based on our state laws as long as one is making a good faith effort to pay every month this is acceptable. I wanted to be prepared if I got stuck with a $1000 bill.

    Thankfully the bill after insurance was not too expensive, about half of what I estimated. Unfortunately due to some recent beyond my control expenses it was difficult for me to pay all at once. I had planned on spreading out the payment over 3-4 months.

    Every other week I was called by someone in their billing department demanding full payment; getting lectured on how they provided a service and it is rude of me not to pay; I was constantly reminded that they sent me the test results before getting full payment… I started letting their messages go to voice mail, but honestly they reduced me to tears at times. At one point I was told they were tired of calling me and I should just pay the balance on credit card (since when is using my credit card anything you have a say in?); another time I was told if I went out to eat during the week I should have the money to pay them (didn’t realize they were a financial planner in addition to a doctor’s office)

    My medical issue turns out to be fine and I have recovered 100%. The doctor wanted to do a 6 month follow up. I am getting ready to make the final payment (in month 4), and I’m done with them. Now I have the office calling me to make the follow up appointment. The calls are getting more and more frequent.

    I am disgusted by this office’s practices. I’ve run into the owners of the office at professional networking events. They are very friendly, professional. They wouldn’t know me personally but might by sight between this being a small town and the larger area networking events. I would like to email them why I will not be using their services again. I did my due diligence before making an appointment with them; asked questions; I never flaked out on them payment wise. Their constant calls, lectures, and (in my opinion) harrassment is uncalled for. What gets me is that this office is well known and highly recommended.

    I’ve since found another doctor to do the follow up. The new doctor is just as respected, they are willing to work with me given my insurance situation and even put this in writing upon my request.

    In all honesty my writing the original doctor is more me venting about how they run their business. Is it a good idea to let the doctor know of their staff’s behavior? I am justified in my annoyance? Is this crusade just blowing things out of proportion?

    1. Mehkitty84*

      I am so glad that your health is improving and the added stress of the office I am sure didn’t help. If it were me, I would write a letter to the owners. Also, you might want to write a review either with the better business bureau or a social media platform if you are comfortable. What their billing department is doing is harassment and I know with credit debt also illegal in that case. I would draft the letter with facts and try to word it as if I was the owner I would want to know. Also, a timeline would help as well in the letter.

    2. NaoNao*

      It almost sounds as if the office staff may have contracted out to a collections agency, because I used to work for one and members of my team used to say similar things (“just ask a friend for money”).
      If this is the case, I would let it go because collections agencies are just like this, sadly.

      If it is the staff, I would for sure tell the doctor. I would basically lay out the facts only, with as little emotion as possible. I know it’s hard–I once called a collections agency with every intention of calmly laying out the facts and when they answered I blew up and was yelling. Not cool, and they were all like “may I speak now?” in a frosty tone. Ugh.

      I would explain the following:
      I was told multiple times that a payment plan was okay. I was making payments on that plan.
      I informed the staff of changes to the payment plan in advance.
      I made payments on x date, x date, and x date.
      Despite this, I received calls on x date, x date, and x date (if they contacted you on a cell phone, take a screen shot of your call log and make sure the dates are written down—it’s much more impactful to be able to say “June 1, June 15, June 20, June 25 and June 30, I received calls from your office” than “every week”)
      On the first call, I spoke with the office staff, explained the situation, and my intention to pay.
      They told me…(what you said)

      Good luck!

      1. CAA*

        This is good advice about keeping your letter concise. If you want them to read it and act on it, then it has to be no longer than a couple of paragraphs — much shorter than what you wrote here, though of course you included extra info for us that your doctor would already know. If you have the names of the people who told you it was o.k. to pay over time, then make sure to include that info.

    3. WellRed*

      Oh my goodness. Please let them know about the aggressive behavior. I mean, telling someone “if I went out to eat during the week I should have the money to pay them” is beyond boundaries.

      1. Hedgehog*

        I would guess that the billing is farmed out, just because most of my drs do that, and there may be a miscommunication between the person at the office who told you that it wouldn’t be a problem and the billing people who never heard about your conversation with the office. I’d call whoever you talked to in the first place and bring it up with them and ask them to pass this on to their billing office or billing contractor. And I wouldn’t hesitate to bring it up with the doc at your follow up visit either, because Im sure she doesn’t want people who ultimately represents her office, whether they are her employees or contractors.

      2. LJL*

        years ago, when I was living paycheck to paycheck, I had a collections agency call me on Sunday morning. I told them that I couldn’t talk as I was on my way to church. The woman told me that I should be sending the money to them instead of putting it in the collection plate. Infuriating!!

    4. Drago Cucina*

      Please let them know about this type of strong arm behavior. I would politely tell the doctor’s office that it was so bad that I had been thinking of making a complaint to the state attorney general’s office. I would prefer to give them the opportunity to correct the problem. Not a threat, but they should know that the behavior could trigger a report.

    5. kittymommy*

      Yeah, it sounds like a collection agency, regardless I would write a concise, non-rant letter to the owners with a cc to the doctor if they are not an owner. It’s information that they should be aware of.

    6. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I think a letter to the doctor is critical. I used to work for a medical office and we had a similar situation. I was the assistant to the office manager and when the doctor found out what had happened, he was so angry. He met with the office manager and the employee causing the problems. Then he had a full staff meeting where he made sure that everyone was aware that they were working under HIS name, HIS reputation. He would never treat a person the way that patient had been treated. That is something that really sticks in mind – as employees, you are working under the company’s name and reputation as well as the names and reputations of those in your chain of command.

      Send a letter to the doctor as well as the office manager. List dates and times and that this harassment happened. And explain that you have already found other care and will not be recommending that practice to anyone.

    7. OhNo*

      As others have said, it sounds like they might have contracted out to a collection agency for this. Those tactics – especially the calling constantly – sounds very familiar to all dealings I’ve had with collection agencies.

      Honestly, I feel like that’s all the more reason to let the office know your experience. If it is an outside agency, they might drop their connection to it if they know they’re losing patients due to shady practices and harassing tactics on the agency’s part. If nothing else, it might give you some closure to just tell them that you didn’t appreciate their behavior, even if nothing comes of it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. And OP, from what I have seen in my life this is fairly normal stuff.

        I remember my mother died, my father had not even buried her and the nursing home started calling and calling asking for their money. Finally I caught one of the calls and I ripped that person a new one. Yeah, it was ugly.

        In a lighter story, I incurred a small ER bill. I had no money at that time so I agreed to pay $5 per month. I would simply not eat for a day or so and then I would be able to pay. Well. The collection agency called and called. Finally I ignored it. So they started sending me letters. In their last letter they told me they “were returning my account to the creditor for them to follow up on”. The way it was written I could tell they thought they were scaring the crap out of me. I was bent over double laughing. I had made timely payments to that creditor each month and I was better than half way paid. I shrugged and threw it in the garbage can.

        Do let the doc know. And you have anything in writing from the collection agency bring in copies to give to him.

    8. Artemesia*

      Doctors employ people who will do this for them. They authorized it but in a way they can pretend to not be money grubbing and sympathetic. You can certainly push back; you did everything right and they still hassled you, but don’t count on the doctor actually caring.

    9. Marisol*

      You absolutely have the right to give feedback to anyone who you pay for goods or services. Whether or not your complaint is “reasonable” or “justified” is beside the point–although in this case, I do think it’s justified. You can’t control the effect of the feedback–it may help improve the practice’s billing behavior, or it may have no effect whatsoever–but regardless of the specifics, I don’t think it is ever inappropriate to tell someone that you gave money to what your experience was like. Do it.

    10. MsChanandlerBong*

      This is awful. Yes, you received a service, but you didn’t just refuse to pay. You called ahead and asked if you could do a payment plan, and they agreed. This reminds me of the time I had an arterial blockage and had to have a stent put in the blocked artery. I wasn’t in the hospital two hours, and the billing office was calling me to ask if I could give them my debit card number over the phone (they wanted $400). My doctor was furious when he found out they did that. Maybe the owners aren’t aware that the staff members are doing this? Or maybe it’s a third-party collector.

      1. nonegiven*

        Some person calls on the phone and says you owe money. You’re supposed to just pass out your card number to some person you don’t know calling from a number you don’t know? LOL

        After I see my EOB, you can bill me for the amount it says you can. Then I will pay.

    11. Is It Performance Art*

      Definitely contact the office and your insurance company. Even if the doctor isn’t in network for you, they may be in another of the insurer’s networks. The insurance company has a lot of financial leverage and they know that people will switch plans because of the doctors in the network.

  9. Elsa*

    I’m about to (hopefully, if all goes to plan) complete a Master’s degree. I’ll be applying for full-time positions soon, and I’m wondering how to order things on my resume. (I’ve had 5+years work experience before doing the degree, but in a completely different field).

    If chronologically, then my current internship would come first – and it’s technically the most relevant to where I want to go, but I’m only one month in (for a three month placement) and won’t have that much to write under ‘responsibilities’ or ‘achievements’ yet. I have plenty to write under my last job (the 5+yrs) one, but as I said it was a different field altogether.

    Also, in the cover letter should I talk more about work experience or the stuff I learnt on the academic side? The assignments I completed for school are more in line with what the work would involve, but that’s not exactly professional experience. Some of the professional stuff I’ve done is actually quite high-profile, but again, wrong industry.

    So yeah…how to organise?

    1. Izzy Legal*

      One thing I’ve started doing lately in resumes (and it’s worked for me) is having a “Summary” section at the top, where there are three or four bullet points about my current work, expertise, etc. Maybe you could include that with a bullet about your current internship, then your education, then your previous experience.

      And then launch into deeper explanations down below that? Keeping the expanded sections (internship, education, experience) in the same order as the summary bullets.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Relating to the cover letter, if the academic-side stuff is simply what you’ve learned about but not actually put into practice with measurable results (grades don’t count), then I would leave it out and instead focus on how you can translate your actual work accomplishments into relevant experience for the job you’re applying to.

      1. OhNo*

        This. Unless it was a major project that impacted a place outside your school (like an external practicum, or major project for a program partner, or something), probably not worth having in your cover letter. There are slightly different expectations between work produced for school and work produced for, well, work, so academic projects wouldn’t really fit.

        However, since you have some previous work experience, can you see any crossover between the work you did for class and work you’ve done at past jobs? It’s definitely worth highlighting similar projects from prior positions, even if they were only a tiny part of your overall duties.

    3. SFsam*

      I finished a masters last year and it was a major career shift, so I understand the challenges! Here are some things that worked for me.

      A) I have a summary at the top of my resume that’s a few sentences about who I am. I try to tie all my various professional experiences together and highlight some major accomplishments.

      B) my resume is chunked up by type of work, with highlights below. I.e., “Consulting,” “Communications,” etc. then under each, I may have something like, “led a team of graduate students to devise indicators of impact for teapot university alumni board” and then “briefed board members on indicators of impact,” etc.

      As for cover letter stuff, I focus on telling the story of who I am and what I’ve brought to my jobs and why I’ve been successful. Because even though the responsibilities have changed, I haven’t.

      And as far as addressing school stuff, I don’t go too deeply, with a few exceptions. Mine was a professional degree that people in my field almost all have, so we all have a baseline of what classes I’ve taken. But I do highlight that I took some finance/accounting classes, because that’s a concrete skill. And I also took advantage of as many client projects as I could and describe that work. I may have been graded instead of paid, but I still delivered products and value to my client.

  10. Lucie*

    I posted back in January about making the jump back to my old company that I had left for $$ reasons about a year previous. My old boss matched everything I have been back since March and it’s been amazing. I am so happy to be back it’s no longer painful to get up in the morning and go to work every day.

    Thank you all so much!

    1. D.W.*

      Good on you for recognizing that your previous employment was indeed the best option and taking the chance to go back. And even better that it proved to be a good move!

      Congratulation, that’s amazing!

  11. Catherine*

    Does anyone have tips for how to deal with mild face blindness when starting a new job? Once I see someone a few times, it’s no longer a problem, but before then it’s kind of awkward. I look at pictures, but sometimes people look quite different in person. Or I focus on what I think is a distinct feature that the person has changed since the picture was taken. I’m sure it doesn’t help that I’m nervous about forgetting.

    1. Marzipan*

      I wonder if just telling people this may happen, up front, would do away with the awkwardness?

    2. Qmatilda*

      I’m totally upfront with people I meet in work settings, “I have some facial blindness so I’m sure it will take me a few times to make the connection in my faulty wiring.” Or something along those lines

    3. JanetM*

      I don’t have face blindness, but I am awful at remembering names (in my defense, I’m trying to work on this). I have found in social settings that, “Hi, I’m Janet, I know we’ve met but I’ve lost your name?” works pretty well. I don’t know if that would be feasible in a business context.

      2. Neosmom*

        Excellent. I use something similar:
        “I’m so sorry. Your name ran right out of my brain …”
        Only on very rare occasions do I have to add, “Please help me out.”

        New employees are on information overload for a while and,OP, your co-workers will understand.

    4. fposte*

      I’m with Marzipan–“I apologize in advance, but I’m terrible with faces, so I may reintroduce myself to you a few times before it eventually takes!”

    5. Murphy*

      I second what Marzipan says. My husband is terrible with names, and he always tells people this as soon as he meets them. “Hi Jane. I’m terrible with names, so please forgive me if I forget yours.”

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Meant to add, I noticed when working for a much larger company that we would run into the same people over and over in the break room, etc. but we didn’t introduce ourselves to start with. There were several people on my floor I saw nearly every day for FOUR YEARS and I still don’t know their names. I don’t know if it was because we were in different departments and so weren’t that interested in learning each others’ names, or if people were self-conscious about asking, especially if they weren’t good at keeping track of them.

      2. OhNo*

        Yep, I do this, too. After I’ve asked someone’s name, my stock follow-up is “I may have to ask you a few times”. Honestly, every time I’ve said that, people seem relieved! At least half of them say they’ll probably have to ask me a couple of times to remember, too.

        If you don’t want to mention face blindness specifically, you can just say something about connecting names with faces taking some time for you. I feel like that’s pretty common, so I doubt anyone will even blink an eye over it.

    6. Old at Heart Millenial*

      Research has shown that saying an individual’s name when you see them increases your brain’s facial recognition. Try to be more deliberate in addressing individuals in passing, which will also allow you to begin to recognize voice so you aren’t solely relying on faces. Honesty works well too. I find myself telling individuals that I am terrible with both names and facial recognition so that they weren’t under the assumption that I just didn’t care to put in the effort.

    7. curmudgeon*

      I have, more than once, introduced myself to someone I’ve been working with for weeks after they buy new glasses or change their hair or if I know there are new staffers in the office that I haven’t met.
      Yeah, embarrassing.
      I just apologize.

    8. anon24*

      I’m terrible with matching faces to names! My one job I worked in a department with about 20 people. I was so lost for the first 2 months. People would tell stories about other co-workers and I had no idea who they were talking about, even though I had been introduced to everyone. Then, when talking to a co-worker I just confessed I was having trouble. Prior to that job I had worked in the automotive industry and for some reason I’m really good at remembering people’s cars. I actually told my co-worker yeah I can’t remember faces but for some reason I’ll remember people by their cars. I just meant it as a haha aren’t I weird comment, but he actually pointed to everyone and said “that’s Jane, she drives a Ford Taurus, and that’s Fergus, he has a Subaru WRX, etc”. After that everything clicked and I had no trouble anymore!

      All this to say, is there a way you can associate some other weird thing to remember their names/faces? Oh, and I see nothing wrong with admitting up front “hey, nice to meet you, I’m terrible with names and faces so it might take me a couple times to remember you, sorry”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Saying up front “I am terrible with names” can be a release in itself. Once dragged out into the light of day the problem can become less of a pressure cooker.

        I have scarring on my ear drum. So I miss little nuances. PEACH. Right now I have to pronounce a Russian surname that must be 16 syllables long. All I can do is tell the person, “I am embarrassed that I am not able to get this right.” And I just keep trying. That is all we can do.

    9. JeanB in NC*

      I agree with the others – just tell people you have face blindness. I’ve worked at my current job for 2.5 years and I still can’t place all the faces with names. I just say, “I’m sorry, I have some face blindness, can you remind me who you are?”.

    10. Jules the First*

      I’m upfront about it – I just warn people that I’m face blind and a) it will take me a while to learn their names and b) I need them to remind me they’re from work if we meet out of context.

      The other thing that really helps is to enlist a nearby colleague who’s good with names so that they can fill you in on who just dropped by to ask you about something.

    11. Rookie Manager*

      I’m not sure if this will help you but I draw maps of where people sit. I do this in meetings where there are new people/other departments/external agencies but also a couple of times when I’ve started in larger offices. It really helped me match people, names and job roles. Good luck!

    12. another person*

      I tell people this and it usually goes over well (although some people do get really upset that I’m not making the effort to learn their names–even though I will study before group meetings with pictures, etc which makes me think I’m possibly putting in more effort than normal). But I have really bad faceblindness where I sometimes don’t recognize my husband (or my parents or my sisters…) and usually if I can mention that in a story, it helps people understand the extent of face recognition problems I deal with. (I am good with names though, so if you tell me your name, I can usually match it up to the last time I was talking to you).

    13. Zip Zap*

      I have a different thing that sometimes leads to misunderstandings so I can relate. There’s that fear that some people will judge you. But I think being direct and straight forward is the best bet. If I met someone and they told me they had face blindness, I’d appreciate their being upfront about it. I’d probably even make an effort to help them identify me like pointing to some other feature that would be easier to remember.

  12. Simplytea*

    I’m in my mid-20s and have Resting Blank Face. I like to think of it as a not-as-intense version of the previously mentioned RB*tchF in the AAM piece here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/03/my-boss-keeps-telling-me-i-have-a-face-on.html. When my face is relaxed, it looks like I’m concentrated but a bit bored and blank. To add to the fun, my introvert-ed nature leads me to over-analyze my every action when I’m interacting with others–especially based on dreaded facial expressions.

    For informational interviews, or in general when you’re listening to someone and absorbing info, what are good default facial expressions? Right now I default to smile-ish with head nodding, and then a “hmmmm…” look when people say something of value (little bit of furrowed brow). Can I go back to my regular face (which may be intense)? Should my eyes be wider to express interest? Are there different situations in which you’re listening and have to have different faces on?

    Help!

    1. Snark*

      As someone who’s been told that he looks like he’s peering intently into a microscope with a slide of anthrax or Ebola on it when he’s focusing, I find that making sure my forehead and eyebrows are relaxed, mouth relaxed, occasional interested nods at appropriate points, and maybe that slight relaxed smile-ish thing going on gets me looking more “what you’re saying is fascinating” and less “I am burning a hole in your shirt with the focus of my gaze.”

    2. Rache*

      When I met my current boss a few years ago, he told me that he has a “processing face”… and that if it appears he’s looking blankly at me while I’m talking, he’s assuring me that he’s fully listening but he’s learned that it doesn’t always look that way. It instantly made a world of difference in our communication. Sometimes honesty is best – people will be happy to know this and you won’t have to constantly monitor your facial features at the same time you’re concentrating on the conversation.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Move your head ever so slightly one way or the other.
      Nod.
      Blink once in a while.
      Move your eyes around, if they are pointing to something on paper, look at the paper. Use eye movement in ways that seem logical.
      Say something to show recognition or agreement. “Ahh, I see.” or “Okay, sounds good.” Sometimes people just want to know you will do something so you can indicate, “I will take care of that right now.”

      I am not good at sitting or standing perfectly still, so I shift around as I talk. You can move weight from one foot to the other, you can move your hands as you talk, or you can change angles where appropriate.

      Watch other people who you admire and see if you can copy the best of their best ideas or come up with a your own variation.

    4. Marisol*

      I think it would be best to practice in a mirror or with a friend (or even a life coach) to determine what works best for you, but what I try to do is hold my mouth in a very weak smile. It’s less effort than trying to relax a furrowed brow, and that brow relaxation tends to happen automatically once my smile muscles engage. If my brow remains furrowed, however, then the slight smile still cancels it out and prevents me from giving an angry vibe–at least I think it does.

    5. AnonAcademic*

      I have full on bitchy resting face and what I find is that opening my eyes a bit wider in response to what people are saying ensures I can’t furrow my brow in concentration, which makes me look angry. I also try to mirror body language and I’m aware that at rest I look pretty frowny so I will do the half smile as well.

  13. Commenting on AAM*

    I’m embarrassed to ask this. I actually have a question for commenting on Ask A Manager! I love this site, “meeting” people from all types of work life experiences. I enjoy reading the comments and looking at scenarios from a different angle.

    How do AAM readers handle it when you don’t agree with something and it turns into a debate? or if you give an unpopular opinion? Do you just agree to disagree?

    I sometimes feel like I am having to justify things way beyond simple a blog post. If we were in person it would be a great friendly discussion topic over lunch but that’s not possible here. In the end I feel “guilty” for my comment. Please know I am polite and professional in expressing an opinion, nothing malice, nothing to intentionally stir controversy. I’m giving my opinion based on my work experiences, that’s it.

    All this comes to mind because a few weeks ago I made a comment. The topic involved an area I was passionate about and had recently witnessed something similar at work. An employee was wronged in a big way that resulted in them having an office outburst. There was a lot of talk as to how management handled the situation. I agreed and supported with the popular consensus. However I also added that if I were the wronged employee I would have handled the scenario more passively for legal reasons and handled a management / HR discussion much much more aggressively to come to a solution. I followed with my reasoning. I even included some info that the key players in my real life work experience mentioned they had done (with their permission).

    Holy Moly the responses caused a thread of lecturing and had me feeling so conflicted over a 4 line comment. Only 1-2 people agreed with my comment. Obviously responding to the 15-20 comments disputing my comment would have just stirred the fire more. We were all entitled to our strong opinions (and i want us to discuss / debate them!). For some reason I felt like I did something wrong for having a different opinion. I even stopped commenting on AAM for a while. To be honest the discussion made me want to explain my side more but also got me thinking about other factors I hadn’t thought about. At the end of the day though, all new factors considered, my opinion hadn’t changed and I quietly agreed to disagree.

    Yes I know I am being too sensitive and taking things too personally. As I said, I enjoy AAM and want to hear different opinions. I want to know how would you would respond to a disagreement of comments with other readers.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it’s hard because generally, people are more inclined to comment on something they disagree with than to reply to a comment to express complete agreement. So it feels like everyone disagrees with you, when it’s probably just half the people. I try to compose my comments in a way that expresses my opinion but makes it clear that I’m open to other viewpoints – and I think as a whole, most commenters here do the same – but I know it doesn’t always come across that way.

      I think it’s reasonable to engage in a friendly debate until you feel tapped out and then “agree to disagree.” You’re not always going to change someone’s mind, just as they aren’t always going to be able to change yours. I think it’s important that we have a diverse set of opinions on AAM and I would hate for someone to stop commenting because they have a viewpoint that’s different. (I will admit that sometimes I’ll spend 10 minutes composing a response, only to think “eh it’s just not worth it” and then delete it.)

      1. fposte*

        I agree with a lot of this, especially the second paragraph. I think what we struggle with is often putting a period on the sentence. For me it helps to have a mental exit strategy that isn’t getting everybody to agree with me. Is it having to go do something else? Thanking people for some valuable input? Saying “agree to disagree”? Saying that huh, looks like my viewpoint isn’t as common as I thought, whaddyaknow? Saying that’s interesting, and you’ll have to think about the points people made?

        1. Commenting on AAM*

          I actually have used the “That’s something I haven’t thought of, very interesting point of view, definitely something to think about”. Usually that gets things to a neutral position. I’ve even had someone do the same for me! I guess I was frustrated because with the specific post from above, when I said those things, one particular commenter kept the ambush coming saying along the lines “now you’re just saying that”. I found it a little insulting, but truthfully I was trying to look at things from their point of view. I’ve gotten some great responses to my query today and realize that sometimes there truly are two sides to the story and we’re not all going to agree. I agree that it can be a little surprising when you think you have a passionate point of view and realize it’s not as popular as you thought. I guess it’s just how to say I respect your opinion, I will consider all angles and the interesting factors I didn’t think of, please do the same for my point of view.

        2. paul*

          I’ve been trying to ask myself if its worth the mental energy before I engage. I can enjoy a good argument, but I don’t think that’s what Alison wants on her site, and frankly, I’d rather reserve more vigorous discussion for people I know IRL (it’s easier to stay nice/not get PO’d IRL vs online, for me anyway).

      2. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

        “People are more inclined to comment on something they disagree with than to reply to a comment to express complete agreement.” I don’t typically reply to say “+1” or “Me too!”, because I read sometime, somewhere, that it was cluttering up the comments (although, it wasn’t necessarily even on AAM, because I remember random information pretty well, but not necessarily the source thereof).

      3. Amber T*

        Oh the amount of times I’ve started typing out responses, then just meh-ing out of it. Done it both agreement and disagreement with the comment I’m responding to.

        I definitely agree with your first point – if I see someone has posted essentially what I wanted to say, I won’t comment (other than with the occasional +1 or something similar, but I’m slowly doing away with that).

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I’ve stopped doing the +1 or similar, too, since I think there was discussion a while back about how the general consensus was that this was annoying. So I definitely think it’s more likely that if someone is going to respond to your comment, it’s going to be a contrary opinion.

          1. soupmonger*

            I do wish there was a ‘recommend’ or ‘like’ option for comments, though, because sometimes I’ll read a comment and think ‘yes!’ And want to flag that somehow. But I can’t. I don’t do the +1 as I find it irritating, but some comments are so spot-on that I (almost) want to.

        2. Nic*

          It is for this reason I really wish there were something like a “like” button. That way we could show our agreement without clogging up the thread.

    2. Rebecca*

      I tend not to argue in comment threads, but sometimes I forget my own rule and engage. Whenever that happens, I regret it! I’m definitely not being the change I wish to see, but I think online threads in pretty much all communities (minus maybe the late-great The Toast) are too contentious to have real disagreements that don’t get toxic.

    3. LCL*

      If someone responds to something I posted and it is clear by my response they didn’t quite get the gist of what I was attempting to say, I will post a clarification. Or if I think more information will help the discussion I will add to it. But if it is a matter of disagreement, I read what they say and then just move on.

      If I post something and someone responds with something really dismissive, like wow or way to be a jerk, I just ignore them. Because while they probably have good counterarguments to what I posted, they obviously are using the opportunity to demonstrate their moral superiority instead of addressing what I said.

      1. Snark*

        I feel like that last issue has started looming large in my experience of the comments lately. It’s not just a friendly disagreement or a hey, did you realize that was a little dismissive of X, it’s your post is disgusting and wrong and how dare you. It gets exhausting.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Honestly, it’s not a new issue. I’ve been battling it for about a year now. I try to step in when I see it, but yes, it’s exhausting.

          1. Snark*

            Maybe I just have started noticing it more, or maybe it’s been directed at me more lately (in which case, I could probably evaluate my posts better before I post them.)

            1. Queen of the File*

              I hope this isn’t out of line to admit–when I first started reading comments here I did sometimes find some of your input a bit… abrasive? (really mildly–I don’t think I ever responded). As I’ve read you more I now have a much better idea of how intelligent and balanced your opinion is. To be honest, I think your user name biased me a little. It’s on me, not you–but it may partly colour some of the responses you receive.

              2. paul*

                There’s a few commentators–myself and Snark and Observer among them–that tend to eschew a lot of softening language and protracted disclaimers and provisos, particularly in a forum like this.

                I know in my case it’s come across as maybe a bit harder than I intend a couple of times, but it’s also just so damn ridiculous to have to spend more time qualifying what you’re going to say and softening what you’re going to say and limiting what you’re going to say than you spend actually staking out your particular issue on the topic at hand.

                One that comes to mind is someone arguing that we all needed to be expressing more empathy for a hypochondriac that was negatively impacting their workers; condition or not, the behavior was bad, and they weren’t even the one to write in, so how much time are people supposed to spend hand wringing over their condition and how hard it is in this context?

                1. oranges & lemons*

                  Ha, it’s interesting that you mention that case in particular, because that’s one of the topics where I really had to pull back although I had a strong opinion that seemed to be in the minority.

              3. Snark*

                That’s fair – it’s actually a username I’ve been toting across half a dozen sites and….yikes, about 16 years – and I barely think about it anymore. But I can see how that would tend to bias some.

                And, like Paul, I think I tend to not soften my language as much as some, for better or worse, and with mixed results.

          2. LCL*

            I think part of the issue is the stream of consciousness nature of writing that happens in real time. It’s easy to respond quickly, sometimes too quickly. My professional written communication is considered and reviewed and proofed and I remove all the typos and fix the subject/verb/tense agreement problems. Here, not so much…

          3. kittymommy*

            Interesting you’ve noticed it for about a year because it was around that time that I first noticed (and of course to a comment I made) this.

            1. Queen of the File*

              There’s a thing that happens with anxiety where if your general anxiety level goes up, it tends to make your reactions to your specific anxiety triggers more intense and more frequent. For example, if work is stressful and you have a big personal conflict happening, suddenly you’re freaking out about something that wouldn’t even normally hit your radar (please forgive me for really oversimplifying this for the purposes of this comment).

              I wonder if this is true for internet commentary as well–I would say the tone across many sites has become more combative and polarizing within the last year, so maybe we are feeling an intensification here as well. Since we are witnessing attack/defense commentary more overall, maybe we are (subconsciously?) more ready to see it in situations where we would normally not be.

              1. fposte*

                Oh, you may be right there. I do notice that I’m more tetchy online when I’m under stress.

                1. Queen of the File*

                  Me too!

                  I think I am feeling this in particular when I think about facebook. In 2015 most of the commentary I read was banal and supportive. Today I barely go on because there is so much arguing. I’m not making a good/bad judgement on it, just noticing that there’s a LOT more conflict.

                  I think it has altered my baseline expectation of how people interact with each other online. It’s not something I thought about before today, but I do think it’s possible I am subconsciously reading more intentional provocation into innocuous comments than I would have a year ago.

        2. Back to Hibernation*

          I have noticed that more over the past year or so. I have actually returned to lurker status and haven’t been commenting as often because, well, I had a couple of weeks where one commenter in particular seemed to nitpick every.single.comment on every.single.thread basically telling me I was awful for my opinions, lying, judgmental, entitled, privileged…. I took some time off and realized if I roll my eyes and move on I still get enjoyment out of the blog, whereas if I engage and get attacked I get all riled up and it IS exhausting.

    4. Queen of the File*

      I’m not the most experienced commenter by a long shot, but for me… in general I have to consciously practice letting things go online :)

      I am pretty conflict-averse in both real life and online and I also like to have friendly debates. For me, my goal is to try to avoid derailing the overall topic by more than one comment unless someone asks a question about my post or I really feel like I mis-spoke and people are misunderstanding. Nuances are lost in typing (especially when trying to be concise) so I don’t usually make my points as well as I want to. I also have to resist the urge to stew about what I said and how I said it.

      Commenting, unlike debate, isn’t win/lose. So really it doesn’t matter if people disagree with what you post (or if you disagree with them). I think it’s good to consider the alternate viewpoints, especially when many people disagree with you, but to me the main benefit is in thinking about those alternatives and weighing them against my opinion rather than responding to them.

    5. Snark*

      “Holy Moly the responses caused a thread of lecturing and had me feeling so conflicted over a 4 line comment.”

      Yeah, I’ve gotten the same reaction a few times lately, and it’s really been disheartening. There’s a small minority of commenters – and I believe it’s a small minority – who are hypervigilant, and hyper-reactive, to statements they believe could be interpreted as problematic, exclusionary, or just not quite woke enough, and their response is to nitpick wording to death and dissect your imputed motivations in the name of defending those you marginalized. And it has the paradoxical effect of making this place seem more hostile, not more welcoming. We all make statements that are generalized, or not fully explained, or not thought through, or even unconsciously problematic, and I think a lot of folks need to keep in mind that when that happens, it’s probably not because the person is ageist or racist or ableist or a scenery-chewing Disney villain, and to give people the benefit of generous doubt.

      I dig myself in deeper because I argue like a German Shepherd plays tug-of-war, but that’s my fault and my row to hoe.

      1. paul*

        Like complaining people might be discriminating against a minority religion because they got mad about the boss that was telling his female employee to cover up her ankles and neck?

      2. Merci Dee*

        This is something that I’ve noticed lately, as well, with the small minority. There have been several times – even as recently as a couple of days ago — where I’ve read a response to a comment, and the only thing I could do was roll my eyes and keep scrolling. I get that we try to be mindful of the way that we phrase things here, and I generally think that it’s a good thing to be aware of the very human feelings of the people around you. At the same time . . . . I’d like to think that most of us are adults, and we don’t have to have someone jump in to monitor and correct our speech as though we were a group of rowdy preschoolers. I fully acknowledge that Alison gets to do exactly this as much as she wishes, because its her blog and she’s taken on the monumental (and often thankless) task of moderation. But it’s been my observation that Alison is fair-handed when she steps in, and that she feels the need to do so much, much less than some other commenters. Whether she feels the need to step in less because others are doing it more, however, is something I have no way to know.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The double-edged sword of commenters’ self-policing! When it’s to reinforce norms that are important here (like “that’s really unkind”), I appreciate it; I think that helps keep those things norms. But sometimes it’s more nitpicky than I would be, and then I don’t so much appreciate it. But I know I can’t pick and choose (“remind people of norms but only exactly the way I want you to, and you’ll have to read my mind to know what that is!”).

          1. Merci Dee*

            Read your mind to figure out what you want? No problem! I know I put my Johnny Carson swami hat around here somewhere! :)

            I have the feeling I just really dated myself! Anyone else remember that bit on the Tonight Show?

      3. fposte*

        I definitely suffer from can’t-let-it-drop-itis at times myself, and sometimes I have to laugh because I’m like “Sheesh, this person just can’t let this drop!” and then I realize that’s because I won’t let this drop.

      4. Commenting on AAM*

        Snark thank you for your reply. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one experiencing the disheartening feelings sometimes. I just hadn’t realized how my comment a few weeks ago had stirred up the debater in me.

        In my situation, I was never expecting everyone to agree with my comment and quite honestly I could understand (even partially agreed) why they didn’t. I was a bit surprised that more weren’t seeing how I was looking at things, but everyone’s comment regardless if pro or con had supportive backup. I respect that. In real life, I will stick up for myself however I also try to be someone who doesn’t rock the boat and looks at the bigger picture. In my comment to the scenario I was looking at the bigger picture (the company taking time to fix the situation, the wronged employee’s long term career, how coworkers dealt with this) trying to overall make sure the wronged was righted; where as many of the commenters said I was basically “punishing” the wronged employee.

        I was more frustrated not being able to communicate that yes I agree with you I just would have gone about things on a very different path. I got even more frustrated with just not being able to argue it with out this becoming a big debate where everyone was passionate about their response.

        I’m learning I should not take a post or it’s reply so personally. We’re all on AAM to learn and advise each other with Alison’s leadership.

        Thank you for your and everyone’s attention to my post.

      5. oranges & lemons*

        Yeah, I think this is an issue that plagues most forums that tend to be left leaning and/or social justice oriented. I wonder if it’s kind of the opposite side of the coin to internet trolls–people who are concerned about social justice often have to weigh how much and when we can address instances of bigotry in our workplaces, social circles and so on, so when we find a climate that allows or encourages us to do it, we go a bit overboard. This has chased me away from a few online forums since it gets really hard to wade through after a while.

    6. T3k*

      It wasn’t so much as a disagreement one time, but more of people reading too much into semantics and it caused a few heated comments over a response I said to another poster. I’m not the best anyways when it comes to expressing myself in words, so that probably didn’t help matters. I did apologize, stating I hadn’t meant it the way some were reading it as, and thankfully the person it was directed towards understood.

      1. Snark*

        And even those who are good at expressing themselves occasionally fail to, and sometimes it’s just not possible to preemptively disclaim all possible misinterpretations.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If someone wants to misinterpret words they will, no matter how carefully something is worded. All we can do is do our best. And for ourselves, if a comment seems ambiguous, try to hold the comment in the best possible light.
          I look at it this way. Right now, Alison gets more enjoyment from this than she gets worried from policing it. When that flips, when she is policing it more than enjoying it, then we are done here.
          We can’t make Alison, worry or work harder. If we do then we all lose.
          And to be honest, if Alison ever closed this blog I think most of us would feel a big loss in our lives.

      2. Complainer*

        This might not be the best way to handle it, but I honestly find it amusing after a while when people start debating passionately over minor semantics or get hysterical about arguments that are relatively mundane when you’re off the internet. This might seem kind of strange, but maybe …laugh at it? I’m sure most of the commenters here are reasonable people in real life who are driven to ridiculous levels of debate because …? I always find it a little funny and that’s how I handle it.

        I’ll admit…sometimes I read AAM because the drama of the comments section takes me out of the mundane of regular life.

    7. Shiara*

      I know that personally, when I post something that’s then disagreed with, it feels like I need to defend it or else nebulous bad things will happen like everyone seeing how wrong I am or clearly they’re misunderstanding and I don’t want to be misunderstood or just it feels wrong and it’s bad.

      But when I read an interesting perspective, even if I don’t agree with it, I still find it interesting, regardless of what the follow up comments think about it, or how many people have replied to disagree, and if there’s a lot of comments disagreeing, I’ll probably just skim or skip most of them.

      So I try to remind myself, when posting, that that heat of the moment want to clarify/respond/defend I’m feeling as a response to people’s responses to my comment, are not how most third parties are going to be feeling when reading the discussion. For them, the discussion isn’t a debate happening in real time. If my point was worth posting, it’ll probably stand on its own without need of defense. If it’s not, subsequent arguments probably aren’t going to make it more valid (unless there’s a genuine misunderstanding that I want to clear up, or I have a genuine change ore refining of opinion I want to express.)

      Serving as a forum moderator in a pretty popular fandom forum did a lot to teach me that the person with the last post in a contentious thread isn’t the person who “won” the argument. The winner, if anyone is the person who made a clear point, and then left deciding who was right as an exercise to the reader rather than continuing to reiterate it.

      1. Shiara*

        Another thing I do to try not to take disagreements personally is to remind myself that the person they’re disagreeing with isn’t me. It’s a collection of words that I put together, but the replier has read their own experiences, current mood, the last argument they had on the topic, perceived tone, etc, into it. And it’s that amalgamated collection of things that they’re disagreeing with, not me.

        Depending on the comment, it may be worth sifting through the response post to find the bits that actually do disagree with what I said, and then thinking about them seriously. But it also may not.

        1. Snark*

          I really try to remind myself of this, but I feel like my jerkbrain is all like “You are WRONG and I WILL BURY YOU.” And I’m like “Yes they’re wrong but” and jerkbrain is like “I AM VINDICATED!”

        2. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

          I really appreciate your first paragraph especially. That’s a great way of thinking about it, in my opinion.

        3. paul*

          Unless someone says something that’s pretty hard not to view as a personal attack, I try not to take it personally. None of us know each other IRL after all.

        4. fposte*

          I also find that getting away from the screen for a while breaks the “someone is wrong on the Internet” spell, and that later, when the heat of the moment has passed, I’m more “Well, whaddya know” and less righteous trumpets.

    8. Oryx*

      I actually had a discussion with my therapist about this exact same issue a few months back because I found myself in the same situation. I honestly was having a horrible day because some strangers on the internet disagreed with me and it got heated.

      I have learned that I have to just let it go and sometimes that means completely disengaging and just walking away from the conversation. If it’s a situation where maybe I didn’t make myself clear, I will rephrase my stance to clarify my position, but if it starts to escalate, I agree to disagree , exit the thread and just not return to that particular thread.

    9. Complainer*

      I’ve noticed this as well. I think it’s just the nature of communities getting larger. They get harder to police and become less a community and more…a country? So, you’re more inclined to disagree in a ruder way when it’s an anonymous stranger online vs. someone you’ve gotten to know over time through an online community. I just think it comes with a territory.

      I’ve noticed it manifests sometimes on the site as mass hysteria over things you may not get hysterical about in real life. Like, advising the OP get a lawyer when the situation in no way calls for that and other sort of hysterical arguments or advice. I think it’s a mob mentality type thinking and I absolutely fall into that, even after laughing at myself or others for doing the same.

      I don’t tend to always agree with everyone (in fact, I think I’m often a devil’s advocate), but the rudeness is really hard to avoid when the community just gains a lot of traction. I’d say, leave rude comments and be and it’s a pile-on, feel free to continue stating your opinion as it’s good to have a diversity of opinions, as long as you’re being respectful.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I was unclear! I didn’t mean I agree with the “just let it be a pile-on,” just that it’s a function of having more commenters.

            1. neverjaunty*

              I meant that it seems a lot of people are using this particular comment thread less to talk about feeling piled-on generally than to take swipes at people they disagreed with from past posts, and snarking about “hysteria” and “mobs” and similar doesn’t really seem keeping with a preference for a kinder, more civil site.

              1. Complainer*

                Whoa, I assume you’ll never see this comment but that wasn’t said snarkily at all. It was intended neutrally. I think you misconstrued the tone of my post, which can happen on the internet. I also almost never comment (mainly lurk), so this doesn’t have to do with previous arguments with commenters.

                On another note, some posts DO become heated and there’s a lot of emotion, drama, and rudeness that likely wouldn’t exist outside of the internet where we’re less likely to inhibited. It’s not stated snarkily, I think it’s really human nature and everyone does it. I apologize that it came across that way, the snarkiness of the community really gets to me occasionally so it makes me sad that it appeared like I was joining in… :)

      2. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        Your comment about the community here getting larger (including me as a newer member) makes me want to belt out “Wake me up, when Eternal September ends…”

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t always bother, I think there is enough upset in the world and I don’t really need more.

      Sometimes I will go back and see that someone has replied with whatever and I just say to myself, “Okay, then. That is that.” I just don’t want to sink any more energy into it.

      I will say, that since Alison has said “do not engage people acting in a difficult manner” I have seen more times where the whole group will not respond to a comment. I am very proud of us for that.

    11. Essie*

      There are certain people I always completely ignore. You learn the community over time: so-and-so is intentionally abrasive to stir the pot, see-and-see always has to unravel a thread to microscopic levels, saw-and-saw has to PC something to death. If something gets out of control, I also tend to CTRL + F for the commenters who are always rational and well-spoken.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I kind of wonder which group I’m in. I apologise if it’s one of the first ones – I know I have my moments. I try not to though.

        1. Essie*

          I know Alison wants to prevent overly cliquey stuff, but since you asked: you’re one of the names I search out for good posts! Particularly since you have an international perspective.

            1. Merci Dee*

              I agree with Essie about your more international view point. It’s fun to see where we’re different, but still so much the same. People are people, you know? We generally want the same things, even if we go about it different ways because of our particular cultures.

          2. nonegiven*

            I do like learning how employment law is different in other countries, sometimes I wish I knew which countries. Is the US the only bad place among ‘1st world’ countries. (If we still count as 1st world, I’m starting to wonder.)

    12. OlympiasEpiriot*

      My biggest thought if I’m about to post something that might result in conflict of some sort on any commenting thread or message board is “do I have the time to respond to people or engage with them, or am I going to be dumping and running if I say this?” I don’t go looking for conflict, but I think I generally am fairly straightforward-to-blunt and sometimes that or the opinion I’m holding can engender disagreement. Or, I might just not have been careful enough in crafting my sentences — totally mea culpa there — which leads to either misunderstanding or a different track that I didn’t see coming and that I also would need to engage with.

      I worry more about insulting someone from ghosting than from bluntness or being opinionated. I mean, when someone takes the time to respond, whether or not they agree, I sort of feel like it is a gift.

      Also:

      To be honest the discussion made me want to explain my side more but also got me thinking about other factors I hadn’t thought about.

      I find that pretty cool, but considering we all have other work to do, it can be stressful, too, to think about and absorb new ideas (even if we end up personally discarding them) AND stay on top of other duties. So, for me, time management becomes part of the equation.

      Happy you’re here and commenting, however infrequently, though! One message board I used to spend time on had an emoticon of a hippie with a peace sign rotating on an upturned finger. I have an urge to use it here. Please imagine it for me!

    13. OhNo*

      I’ve definitely had this happen before, too. The first time, I tried engaging and explaining my point of view. But that just ended up stoking the fires more (as you noted), and just left me feeling like all of the commenters who were blowing up my thread were just using my continued presence as an excuse to yell more about their opinion without actually taking what I said into consideration. I realized that it wasn’t good for my mental health to do that, so now whenever I drop a comment that I think might blow up, I just leave it and don’t look at that entry for at least the rest of the day. Usually after a day or two, I’m far enough removed that I can read the replies without feeling attacked. And I do read the replies – like you, I like to hear different opinions, and take those into account to inform my own.

      I have to say that I really like how this commentariat doesn’t (usually) drag debates from one post to the next. If we have a disagreement on one post, it stays there and I can leave comments on other posts the same day without worrying that someone’s going to start in with the “And another thing!” in a different place. That makes me feel way more comfortable voicing a dissenting opinion.

    14. Ramona Flowers*

      Honestly, if it starts to bother me I just stop reading that thread and move on with my life.

    15. It's not about work*

      You should have saved this question for the Sunday forum… Just MY opinion!

      1. just sayin'*

        And I’m glad they didn’t, because I don’t usually read the Sunday forum, but this was an important thread for the community!

  14. Nervous Accountant*

    Question about going through recruiters.

    So I mentioned it briefly before that I’ve talked to a recruiter. I turned him down bc I wasn’t ready, but I referred a coworker. I then became interested and started speaking with recruiter. After our meeting, he asked me to send my references and tweak my resume and I haven’t heard back. The meeting was 2 weeks ago on Friday (14th), and I sent him the info on the following Wednesday (19th).

    I reached out to him yesterday (26th) to refer another cw, and that seemed to jog his memory about me.

    Back when I was job searching, I had a bad experience with recruiters. I’m still optimistic now, but what should I expect this time around?

    -Was 2 weeks a normal amount of time to wait to hear back?
    -Does it somehow look bad on me to refer multiple coworkers? Because I’ve now referred 2 so far, and put my hat in the ring, and I have a few more I’d love to refer.

    1. also an accountant*

      I’m not a recruiter but work for a placement agency. 2 weeks is a long time for a recruiter to just touch base for the initial conversation. The recruiters I work for always ask for candidates to keep them in mind if they know anyone job searching, but always keep your name available as well. I personally would wait to refer more candidates to them until you are comfortable with how the recruiter operates. Do you work well with this recruiter? Did they listen to the type of job you are searching for? How prepared was the recruiter when speaking with you – had they reviewed your resume? Is the recruiter or an associate reachable if you have questions? Recruiters can get busy, so I (you) should follow up with them every few weeks. Personally I would hold off recommending anyone else until you can see the recruiters work or at the very least have a phone call with them.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Oh dang. Yeah, I was getting concerned because another cw I’d recommended was in talks about an offer within 4 weeks. so I don’t know, if I just didn’t interview well (he asked why I was looking to leave, we talked about salary, what’s important to me etc) and I dont’ know if he didn’t like my answers, or I’m not a strong candidate. Oh boy.

        1. also an accountant*

          I didn’t mean to freak you out. I just meant it more as the placement agency seems to be benefiting more from your relationship than you are with them. They also might not have a good fit for your right now, they could be overworked, my guess you have a new recruiter who doesn’t know how to handle things. I’d be professionally blunt – what can i do to move the process forward? do you need any additional information from me? also if you aren’t happy with the recruiters answers ask to speak to another recruiter (call the main office); say you are in the system but don’t feel like you are a good fit with the recruiter – you last spoke 4 weeks ago and wanted someone who would be able to keep you up to date a little better. Remember a placement agency wants to place you, they make money off your accepting a placement. It could be there is nothing available to match your experience right now (inmy opinion that’s no excuse for not keeping you posted). From personal experience, not from my employer, I’ve found that if you currently have a job agencies tend to beef up the job hunt once you are unemployed. If you have a job they can take their time in the search. There are a whole lot of factors to consider. I wouldn’t worry too much but I would definitely keep on top of keep in touch with them,be proactive. Good luck with your search. Keep us posted.

    2. Michael Scarn, CPA*

      I have been finding in my local job market that there is such a need for talent that recruiters who used to respond to me right away either take a few days or don’t respond at all. One who took a few days to get back to me replied to my email at 2:30 AM. I think they’re just so busy now. But I think that 2 weeks is more than enough time to follow up.

  15. BioPharma*

    Quick rant: voicemail from recruiter (after reverse search of #) simply saying “Hi BioPharma, it’s [name]. I need to get in touch with you urgently, please call #” THAT’S IT.

    1. Izzy Legal*

      Ugh! That’s happened to me too. It’s always a cold call; I think it’s a trick to get you on the phone again.

    2. CAA*

      I have gotten those too. I have decided that if someone I’ve never heard of really needed to reach me urgently, they would leave a clue in the message. Like “it’s Officer Doe from the xxx city police department”. If they don’t give a company name or reason, then it’s definitely not urgent for me and I’m ignoring them.

    3. Stranger than fiction*

      What a dummy. A lot of people would think it’s some sort of phishing scam and not call.

  16. Junior Dev*

    I’m burning out at work. I’ve hashed over the details a million times and don’t want to go into them now but I will summarize by saying that a lot of stuff is being done in a way that is shoddy and poorly planned and when I try to offer suggestions for improvement people either ignore them or argue with me that they aren’t needed. It is starting to seriously affect my health and job performance.

    I have talked to my therapist about this and she suggested I take a week off from leaving comments on people’s code submissions or offering any sort of opinion that isn’t specifically asked for. (This may sound weird but a major cause of my stress is the sense that I put a lot of work into giving feedback that feels unappreciated, so I’m going with it, just to see how it goes.) Can anyone offer suggestions to actually put this into practice? Mantras to repeat to myself when I’m inclined to offer an opinion, ways to hold myself accountable to this and reflect on it? Tips on actually working on my own stuff during pointless meetings, so I won’t be tempted to comment, without looking blatantly rude?

    I’d also love general advice on dealing with the “I care too much” variety of burnout.

    1. NaoNao*

      OOH.
      I’ve been there.
      My mom has too–she’s an editor slowly losing her mind at her job because no one listens to her.
      I had a boss once who explained “It’s our job to develop the training. They pay us to do that. Whether or not they actually use it (and they hardly ever do!) is up to them. That’s not our problem. We did our job.”

      One thing I tell myself over and over “They don’t pay you for your opinion. They don’t want it, they’re not going to listen to it, and it may even backfire.”

      I choose *one* hill to die on per project and my mantra is “I have no horse in this race.” or “I’m just here to do what you guys tell me” (said lightly).

      I then focus on areas I have complete control over and try to knock that out of the park.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t really have any suggestions but I just had to say thank you for using shoddy instead of shotty.

    3. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

      I’ve found that sometimes giving myself a minimum amount of time to think things over can help. Something that I get outrageously frustrated over one day usually doesn’t seem as bad the next day (most often because it’s not an immediate pressing thing anymore). I think, for myself, that I tend to feel like “If I don’t do it now, I can’t come back to it later…it MUST be done now or never!” But that’s not usually the case, really. If I’m in a meeting, and I have some concerns about the plans laid out, I’ll keep thinking about it until at least the next day before I decide to speak up about it (barring something huge that I’m the only one in the room who realizes). If it’s something that’s really important, my input is still going to be valuable 24 hours after the initial conversation.

    4. LKW*

      Sometimes you have to let people fail. It sucks, but you can’t save the world and you can’t do everyone’s job for them. If someone asks me for a review, I often request what perspective they expect me to bring to the table. Am I SME in a particular area? Am I reading for flow? Grammar? Why me? With that it sets it up as – if you are asking me for this work, then it’s because you think I have information or knowledge that you need. Which means you’re not going to ask me to do this for fun just so you can ignore it.

      If the work is truly shoddy then I will make general comments and then say I’ll review when it’s updated because it’s clearly not ready for approval. I’ll note things like: You have a lot of typos and grammatical mistakes. The system name is spelled inconsistently throughout. It’s expected that code is commented in the following way ### and includes the following information…. I’d expect to see sections for this that and the other.

    5. Stuff*

      I sympathize a great deal. I’m in the same boat with the fun bonus of getting asked for my opinion that they don’t want.

      I’m a terrible liar so that’s out, leaving me with the kind of apathy suggested. But I’m not good at that either so I _sincerely_ hope you get actionable advice here.

    6. Spice for this*

      Junior Dev – I have had a very similar experience at former employer. This is what worked for me: Go ahead and write down your suggestions and/or improvements in a journal/on the computer/etc. This way you get a chance to record them and get them out of your system. Also you don’t have to share them with the people who ignore you suggestions.
      If by some miracle someone asked for your ideas, then you can show them what you have written down.
      Also, I came here to say that I do agree with the comment from LKW “Sometimes you have to let people fail.”

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        I agree that writing them down instead of sharing them could be a really good idea. As long as it’s not specifically expected part of your job to give the feedback? That would make this much more difficult, but if that’s not the case I would definitely try writing them down as ‘Spice for this’ recommends. If it were me, I would likely end every entry with a silly mantra that would make me smile. Not my monkeys not my circus.

    7. Mockingjay*

      I completely understand. Most of my struggles at ExJob were because I cared too much. “Why do you want me working on X? I need to fix Y! Don’t you see?” (There were other major issues – it was a very toxic environment – but thanks to AAM, I was able to find something else.)

      I carried over some of this feeling to CurrentJob, which didn’t go well. Fortunately, I have a decent manager who summed it up: “You are very passionate about the work you do. You constantly strive for improvement and high quality, which are good things.” Then he gently reminded me that it’s his job to determine priorities. I can offer suggestions at any time, but when management makes their decision, I have get on board.

      It’s been about four months since that conversation, and things have improved for me. I’ve been given some control over my own small project, but it has to fit within the processes of the overall program, some of which are extremely outdated and slow. Updating to new tools is not a priority for the overall program. (“It should be! Don’t you see?”) In management’s view, the job still gets done – perhaps slower and with a few errors – but those are acceptable trade-offs because right now they are focused on another area of the program.

      I do get to implement some things for my project, but these improvements may not be carried over to the other teams. I’ve learned to be okay with that. The other teams have their own needs, and what is important to me is not necessarily a priority for them. Not right or wrong, just different.

      You asked for tips on how to offer suggestions. Have you talked to your manager about how to best present ideas? What fits your company culture? Is there a formal suggestion process you should be following but aren’t?

      Is it how your ideas come across? For instance, rather than individual feedback, could you develop a QC process or checklist to provide consistency when checking code? That’s something everyone can use and provides a positive message. (“I’m not pointing out error; I’m preventing error.”) Does your suggestion add value to the product or company, or is it a personal desire? Don’t try to fix everything. Pick one or two items; let the rest go.

      I think it’s great that you are passionate about the work you do. One final thought which has helped me: focus less on improving things and more on doing things, especially the parts of the job you really enjoy.

    8. Jules the First*

      As far as mantras go, I find that repeating “not my circus, not my monkeys” is actually very helpful…it kind of captures the absurdity of offering advice to people who aren’t interested (because really why are you caring if it’s not your party/circus) and emphasises that it isn’t your problem when the monkeys start throwing poo, because hey – not your monkeys!

    9. Ramona Flowers*

      Would it help to imagine an energy meter like in a video game? Your energy meter is at zero so you can’t comment – and then you check in with yourself daily to see where you’re at.

    10. Henry*

      I’m sorry you are feeling burned out. As a developer your attention to detail and continuous learning will help you achieve a lot. I would encourage you to work on your soft interpersonal skills and try to develop better relationships with your peers. We can all be a little territorial and feel personally attacked when someone criticizes our work. If your team doesn’t have that culture of sharing and openness then it can feel dangerous to expose yourself to criticism. If you are relatively early in your career, I would suggest you ask for someone else’s help or opinion even if you don’t 100% need it. Then they will be more likely to reciprocate. Sometimes it helps to broaden your perspective of your job. The user/customer and the business manager may never understand all of the tradeoffs and design decisions you make. Think about the real problem you are solving and step out of the weeds if you can. Software doesn’t have to be written perfectly from conception. Many times I look back on my own code and wonder why I ever took that approach. It’s hard to understand all of the assumptions and constraints that went into something’s implementation and those will evolve over time and then we can update/change it. Maybe it will help to write down your feedback or give it individually in a less stressful environment where it is less confrontational.

    11. Chaordic One*

      The only caveat to the advice given is that there’s a chance that after someone screws up (which they will do whether or not you comment on their work), someone will come back to you and say, “Why didn’t you say anything?”

      Do not say that you didn’t say anything because you knew they wouldn’t take your advice anyway. Instead say something like it didn’t occur to you that this would be a problem, or that you missed it.

    12. Zip Zap*

      I detach myself emotionally and think of the job as a role I’m being paid to fulfill. If that role involves accepting mediocrity without comment, so be it; that’s what they’re paying me for. Having projects of your own outside of work really helps. Then you can care about that and treat your job as financial support for the real stuff.

  17. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    One of my co-workers has given up sugar, and keeps mentioning it. Obviously I am very pleased for her, but, as a fat lady with body issues, I could do with not hearing her discuss it with her fellow weight-loss searching desk mates on a regular basis. Unfortunately, we are in an open plan office.

    I am having other issues with this colleague, but suspect they are at least partly because her abjuring sugar has reached BEC stage (or rather, B(n)EC). Headphones are forbidden in the office. Obviously, I can’t tell her to stop discussing her hobbies and interests.

    Where do I go from here?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      “wow, are you still talking about this” (that’s the slightly ruder option)

      or just change the subject every time. Or get up and walk away.

      1. LCL*

        Is she trying to discuss this with you? Or just with the other people in the office? If you’re not part of the conversation, learn to ignore it. If you are part of the conversation, tell her you remember discussing it with her already and have no more interest in the subject.

        1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

          I am putting all my energy into ignoring it, but it is not really working, especially since I need to be paying low grade attention to that end of the room in case of phones.

          I will try to improve my even breathing skills.

          1. LCL*

            One ignoring trick that works for me is to first spend some mental energy thinking of a pleasant physical setting I have been to, so will have sense memory of it. Then when I hear talk that I wish to ignore, I mentally go to that place. It only takes a second to go there. It is easy to leave the pleasant place to concentrate on work. Please note I am only suggesting this for normal workplace unpleasantness, not serious issues like PTSD.

            Really, ignoring people is a form of what used to be called multitasking. Modern science on multitasking is that there is no such thing, the mind is really just switching attention. Good multitaskers are fast switchers. You want to be able to switch your mind away from the sugar talk quickly. I was bless to be able to attend 2 open concept schools, one in primary and my high school, so I got really good at this. I think the open office concept blows, because open offices get too noisy for concentration.

      2. Hedgehog*

        That seems pretty aggressive. If the coworkers are happy to be talking about it with each other (as opposed to say keto-lady harassing people about their sugar intake), I don’t think anything remotely like that is called for. If it’s difficult for you to hear, I think you just need to politely say something on the lines of “All this diet talk actually makes it harder to stick to my eating plan [or whatever feels to you like a reasonable description of your concern]. Do you mind trying to avoid the topic when I’m in earshot?”

        1. Snark*

          Even that feels inappropriate. Policing people’s conversations you’re not involved in is….not a good look.

          1. Hedwig*

            Yeah, I agree, actually. I would only really advise that if this is more than just an irritation, but more like OP is struggling with disordered eating and actually needs to not hear these conversations. If this is more like when I used to dread Thursdays because all anyone at work wanted to talk about was the previous night’s episode of Lost and all I wanted to do was duct tape their mouths so they would stop, I’m more in the camp of grin and bear it.

        2. Soupspoon McGee*

          I like that phrasing. It makes it your problem, but it also gives Sugar Lady a chance to step back and realize how much she’s dominating the conversation.

    2. Snark*

      Bitch Eating (gluten free, low glycemic index) Crackers?

      I dunno. If it’s not directed at you, it’s hard. If you had a good relationship with this person, you could maybe take her aside and ask her to knock it off, but you don’t. I don’t think you can police her discussions with her desk mates.

    3. Queen of the File*

      Is it an option to let politely know how you feel? “Hey I’ve learned a lot about your experience giving up sugar but I am feeling a bit burned out on all the diet talk and find it very distracting now. Can we concentrate on other topics?”

      1. Snark*

        If it were a group conversation she were involved in, maybe, but this is just a convo in her work area.

        1. Queen of the File*

          I feel like conversations in open offices do kind of involve everyone… at least I feel that way here. Even if people aren’t participating in the discussion they are always right there, overhearing it. But yeah, it might not feel right to bring it up in lots of offices.

          1. Snark*

            Yeah, and I’ve got some regional baggage too – I’m from the mountain West, where I think the culture errs on the side of presuming the existence of privacy and boundaries, compared to, say, the South, where I think there’s much more of a culture of “if it’s in public, it involves everyone.”

            1. bunniferous*

              My husband is from the mountain West(Colorado western slope) but boy howdy are his conversational cultural practices as Southern as they could get.

              1. Paul*

                western slope represent! Nothing like sitting out getting drunk with your parents on a school night while the elk are calling and it’s just this side of freezing on a fall evening. No major cities and you can see the milky way…this time of year I miss the mountains.

                FWIW, having lived in more southern and more mountain places, I do see a difference in etiquette

        2. V of Taco Trucks*

          I would say that any conversation being had in the open can be remarked upon, and if I were saying something that were hurtful or even just bothersome to anyone, I’d want to know! Especially since this is an open office where headphones are banned, I don’t think it’s out of line to say something.

          I’ve had conversations like this with coworkers before, and the language I’ve used is something like, “I’ve known a lot of people who’ve really struggled with eating disorders, so it’s really hard for me to hear a lot of diet and body talk. Would it be all right if those conversations happen [in the break room/over there/over IM/far, far away from me]?”

    4. paul*

      Is the discussion directed at you, or is she talking to other people about it? If you’re overhearing conversations about what she is/isn’t eating, I’m not sure what sort of standing you have to tell them they can’t talk about that. If she’s trying to engage you in those types of conversations, you can disengage, change the topic, etc.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Not sure this will work for you, but if your co-worker is talking about this with someone else, and both employees are physically close to you while carrying on, you could set a nearby timer (your watch, your computer, your phone) for 5 min. When it rings, you can turn it off and say “Excuse me, but I need to do some close reading/work calculations right now requiring pretty intense concentration. Since you need to have an extended discussion, I’d appreciate it if you could continue talking in the hallway/break room/conference room/other side of the wall, etc.” OR alternatively ” … I’d appreciate it if you could you please hold it elsewhere?” I’ve had some luck with this approach, maybe you will too.

    6. Marisol*

      I don’t think you can ask her to change her behavior without leveling with her. Otherwise, your request will seem unreasonable. I’d say something like, “Suzy, I have a big favor to ask of you. When I hear you discuss diets and weight loss, it makes me feel bad. You’re not doing anything wrong by talking about these things, but would you be willing to not talk about it in my presence?”

      A heartfelt request like that would be hard to say no to, whereas if you just act put-out by the conversation but don’t give a good reason, I don’t think you will come off too well.

      If that seems way too personal, then I think you have to live with it. I’d suggest earplugs, but you say you have to listen for the phones. You could google EFT tapping–you tap on acupressure points while talking about what bothers you–and do it on the topic of sugar conversations, body issues, etc. I do EFT tapping for things that bother me, things I feel insecure about, challenges I have, and it has never failed to help.

    7. NoMoreMrFixit*

      It’s been my unpleasant experience that people who give up a “vice” like sugar, booze or tobacco tend to do so with a religious fervour and feel it’s their personal responsibility to evangelize their new position on the topic to everyone trapped in hearing range. I’ve had so many dieting and weight loss tips shoved down my throat over the years that I have a hard time not going nuclear on people over it now.

      The best approach to take with these types is to ignore them. Telling them I’m not interested makes them double down on their efforts to save me. Getting rude makes me look unprofessional. If you truly can’t take it, get up and walk away for a minute. Get a coffee or something. Whatever gets you out of there for a couple of minutes.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        Yep, there’s a saying that describes these people: “The convert always sings loudest in church.” Not nice, but an often-accurate description, I’m afraid.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Speaking as a person who actually gave up sugar, you’re haven’t totally given it up if you are still talking about it.

      You could remind yourself of that when you hear it.

      However, I think the best thing to do is to remind yourself that your irritation about the sugar is a symptom and not the actual problem. You said that you have had other issues with her. My guess is that if it wasn’t the sugar then she would come up with something else equally annoying. BTDT.
      You could decide to find ways to lessen or relieve the actual issues. I have used the little irritations that come along to remind me to work harder at resolving the larger issues.
      This does help. Because of stagnation. There is nothing worse than thinking a situation will not get better. Stagnation is a killer. Making a commitment* to finding ways to improving the overall situation can reduce the impact of the sugar convos.

      *Tricky part. Sometimes that commitment is just a matter of figuring out what hill to die on. She does annoying things A, B and C. You might decide that of the three B bothers you the most. So you will target B and see if you can make modest changes that improve things in some manner.

      1. Her Grace*

        Ooh, light bulb moment.

        “Your stomach might have given up sugar, but your head is still addicted.”

        I have people in my life that keep talking on and on and on about certain things. I’ve wondered why is it they keep going on about it. Now i know why; they haven’t let go in their head.

        Only after one has given up [whatever] in their thoughts as well as their stomach, had one truly given up [whatever].

    9. Tuckerman*

      I find that a lot of people who talk about how they’ve given up something end up re-using it. So, you may only need to put up with this for a short time.

    10. YarnOwl*

      I don’t really have a good solution for you, but as another fat lady with body issues I just wanted to say I’m sorry and I know how much this sucks! I love to bring treats every once in a while to share with coworkers, and the kind of comments they invite are absolutely exhausting. I hope you find a solution soon!

      1. DDJ*

        I have started cheerily responding to nasty comments.
        Them: Oh, that can’t be good for you.
        Me: I know, right? Oh man, it is delicious. Donuts are great!
        T: Hmmm…I really shouldn’t eat this…no…it’s not good for me. How are you eating that? Aren’t you worried?
        M: They’re super tasty! I would recommend you try them! If you change your mind.
        T: I wish I could eat that. But I can’t. I mean…it would be SO BAD.
        M: If you can wish it, you can do it!

        Now, it depends on who’s making the comment. If it’s a busybody who is trying to make me feel guilty for indulging in a treat? Not going to fly. If it’s someone who really CAN’T have something (like ice cream cake, but they’re lactose intolerant, or normal cake, but they’re gluten intolerant, that kind of thing), then I will go into commiseration mode. But don’t get all high-and-mighty with me and my delicious food choices.

        1. Paul*

          from what I’m reading they’re not commenting on her food choices; that’d be an easy call to tell them to stuff it. They’re talking about their own food choices.

    11. Teach*

      Is it wrong that I would be really tempted to rattle a few Mike and Ikes out of a handy jar and enjoy them while gazing blankly at Sugar Lady? Or unwrap a little piece of gourmet dark chocolate and cheerfully explain its healthful antioxidant properties? Just me?

  18. Sugar of lead*

    So here’s a question I asked a while ago but I’d still like a couple of opinions about it. It’s already over and done with so this is all the retrospectoscope.
    What would you do if:
    You were going about your business one day and happened to run into a new hire, of about six weeks. You don’t work closely together and have only run into her once or twice.
    Conversationally, you ask her how she’s enjoying working here. She responds that it “kind of blows.” You ask why. She says that she can’t stop making mistakes that she should’ve stopped making ages ago, and that her coworkers hate working with her because of this, and people keep making fun of her and she’s confused all the time because she can’t tell what’s a joke and what’s serious. You offer some kind of platitudes about learning from your mistakes and move on because you’re kind of on a clock.
    After this encounter, do you or do you not tell management what she said?

    1. katamia*

      I remember I answered this question before (I was generally on the side of not telling the manager about her comments, IIRC, but maybe giving a heads-up about the bullying). Are you comfortable with sharing how it all turned out? I was really curious.

    2. fposte*

      Question in return: it sounds like this one is nagging at you–do you think there’s an answer here that will give you peace? Are you being eaten by what-ifs? Because I don’t think being confided in made you responsible for her.

      1. Sugar of lead*

        INTERESTING YOU SHOULD ASK.
        I’m actually the coworker who hates her job in this scenario. I probably shouldn’t have said that this job kind of blows, but it was all there on the surface and it just came out before I could think it through. My coworker (“Carter”) did talk to management about what I’d said, and since we spend most of our shifts outside the office, my partner that day and I got pulled off the street because management wanted to talk to me about it. They said they wanted to help me, and that they wanted what’s best for me, which thanks to my childhood made me super twitchy, and as usual for management they totally missed the point and kept asking if I needed more skills training. I let them think they’d solved something and moved on. Later I confronted Carter (management wouldn’t tell me who’d talked to them but I had a fair idea), who said he was only trying to help, which again made me super twitchy because no one who’s said that in the past has ever been good news. And I’d gotten fired from my last job because I messed up and was on management’s radar to begin with, so on top of this I was terrified that I’d lose my job. I was kind of a jackass to him and I’m not proud of it.

        He kept being nice to me, though. And then something upsetting happened (our work occasionally involves dead people, long story), and he let me “debrief” with him after the shift, since he’s quite experienced and has seen it all before. He smoked; I talked; he listened and didn’t try to tell me I shouldn’t be upset, and then he told me an interesting story to take my mind off it. We’re on fairly good terms now. He’s one of my favorite coworkers, actually, and I look forward to running into him. Still, I always wondered if he was right to call management on me, if that was the helpful thing to do or not. But yeah, happy ending.

        1. fposte*

          I confess I wondered if you were the co-worker, and I’m glad it had a happy ending. As I said when you asked before, I think either could be okay.

          However, now that I know you were the employee: the fact that a staffer is unhappy with her job is pretty significant information in a lot of workplaces, and I wouldn’t share my unhappiness with a co-worker and expect him to keep that information to himself. A decision about that information isn’t just going to be about what’s helpful to you; it’s about what’s significant to the employer. So as a third party, I can’t see any way Carter would be in the wrong for this.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I agree.

            OP, a good rule of thumb is to expect whatever you say to be repeated. Now. This can sound pretty upsetting but it does not have to be. My suggestion is to ask questions rather than making statements. People are usually willing to help and if you have specific questions about the job then pick people who seem to know what they are doing and talk with them.

            I see about the mistakes. OP, that can be mind-bending. I been there, too. I was dealing with dying parents and getting 2 hours of sleep a night for years. How good a job do you think I did? Not very.
            One way I found to get out of the mistake making trap is to just own each mistake by setting up a plan to prevent that same mistake from happening again.
            Ha! Even now, 30 years later, my boss says, “You never make the same mistake twice.” Nope. (I can find all new ones very easily, lol.)
            So make a plan for each mistake, yes this is tiring. But no more tiring than beating yourself up for previous mistakes, I promise. And this gives your mind something future oriented to dwell on. See, OP, the answers are not in the past. If we keep looking back at all our mistakes we can find it difficult to move ahead. The answers are in the future, that is why making a plan to prevent another recurrence of a mistake can work for people.

        2. AnonAcademic*

          “They said they …wanted what’s best for me, which thanks to my childhood made me super twitchy”
          ” I confronted Carter…who said he was only trying to help, which again made me super twitchy because no one who’s said that in the past has ever been good news”

          OP, you seem to treat people saying they “want what’s best for you” as some sort of secret coded language – but it sounds like your work genuinely is trying to help you out here. There is no magic phrase that is a 1:1 predictor of someone being untrustworthy. I’m sorry your experience makes you wary of this phrasing but I do think in a workplace it is often a positive when a manager offers to help. You need to look at both words and actions and context to see if what they say matches what they mean. In this case, Carter seems to have gone out of his way to listen to you and advocate for you with management, so unless he’s left a trail of fired new employees in his wake or something, it might be worth leaning on him as a mentor.

    3. Dotty*

      I don’t think it’s your place to say, particularly not repeating what she said so just offering some reassurance sounds good, if you were in the same team I’d have suggested trying to be on hand and open to questions but as you’re not I wouldn’t have worried. Similarly If you had the same manager and a good one then you could maybe bring into the conversation that maybe she’d be interested for more reassurance, coaching but if it’s a different department I think it’d be difficult to raise this casually and really if she’s that concerned, it’s a conversation she should be having with her manager.

    4. CAA*

      Nope, don’t tell management.

      If I were in a particularly mentoring mood, I’d take her out for coffee and tell her I was concerned about what she’d said that day in the hall, and see if there was anything I could do to help her over the difficulty.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I don’t too often say anything to management for many reasons. But I will talk to the person directly. I figure they opened the subject with me, so I can respond in kind.

    5. Rache*

      Personally, I would not talk to the management about this. I might even suggest meeting with her later – off the clock – to see if there’s anything that I could do to help her. May just be my inclination to help people, but if I love my job and know that someone is having such a tough time in the same place, I really really want to see if it’s something I can help adjust. Not to say it would work, but you might have some insight to improve things for her.

    6. Halls of Montezuma*

      I saw above that you’re the employee, so this is sort of hypothetical, but I’d probably have told someone, too – probably a team lead level, not anyone very senior. That way they’d know the new hire was feeling overwhelmed (may or may not be new info to them) and like their coworkers hated them (hopefully new info), which would let them evaluate whether they’d given sufficient help, training, and resources during onboarding, and whether the team was behaving professionally about giving feedback and correcting mistakes. Even if a new hire isn’t yours, mid-level employees have a responsibility to not ignore it if a new coworker is having so rough a time of it that they confess all of this to near-stranger.

      1. Sugar of lead*

        Yeah. I’m kind of surprised at how everyone’s tone is changing now that they know who I am in this scenario. I don’t blame Carter anymore–like I said, he helped me out later in a way that was actually helpful, and I’m an incredibly suspicious person but I am starting to trust him. As for how people treat me, I’m more or less asking for it; it’s been the same way since grade school. I can’t tell when people are joking or not, so it’s a lot of fun to tell me stuff and laugh when I take it seriously. And I come across as a little “off,” so teasing me about that’s another good way to pass the time. It’s my problem, not anyone else’s, and I’ve since made peace with that.

        1. fposte*

          Everybody’s tone is changing because we now know we’re talking directly to the person who was struggling at work, that this is an event that’s a done deal, not a matter under consideration, and that it worked out okay. Everybody’s opinion isn’t changing, though. A couple of us said on the previous post that we could see going to the manager, and a couple of us are saying it here. Nobody in either post said it would be a horrible thing to go to the manager.

        2. bunniferous*

          Well, people see through the lens of their own experiences, and it sounds to me like your early experiences were not all that great. What is great about posting HERE about what you did is hopefully it will help you recalibrate-but let me say from my perspective that I understand how very hard it is to change how you hear things and in your example, learn to be able to trust people who more often than not are ok to trust.

  19. Antti*

    I’m long-distance job searching (looking for a job around the Atlanta metro). How do you handle it in a cover letter if you use your partner’s/friend’s/family member’s/etc. address in your application materials? Do you mention everything upfront about the fact that you’re not local but you absolutely are moving to the area by X date? Do you not address that until the interview? Or do you just not use the other person’s address?

    1. extra anon today*

      I mentioned it at the end of my cover letter. Something along the lines of “I am moving to XXX in early January and look forward to continuing my career there.”

      1. Antti*

        Do you mind if I ask whether that’s an ongoing search or one that you’ve already finished? If it’s over, how did that go?

    2. a casual commenter*

      When I was doing long-distance applying, I used my actual address, but had a line in the cover letter about wanting to move to X City to be closer to family in the area. So it was clear that I had roots, and that I was serious about moving, because I know that can be a concern. At my current job, we had a director candidate who ended up turning us down really really really late in the process because he suddenly decided he didn’t want to move cross-county to work here. I figure that putting it up front made it clear that this wasn’t just me fishing for cool jobs, I was serious about wanting to move and wasn’t going to flake out.

      Doing this got me several interviews, plus an offer I ended up turning down (for other reasons), and my current job.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve never been successful in long-distance job-searching even when I had a firm move date, so I would just use the local address and not mention it until you are well along in the process. Assuming you won’t have a problem getting there for an interview on short notice. In that case, you’re going to have to come clean earlier, and maybe I would skip using the local address and just try to be really clear about your moving plans (even if they are actually up in the air!).

    4. Antti*

      Follow-up question: I’m moving to join my partner (finally!). What do you do when your experience level precludes you from slightly more senior positions? So far it seems like employers are a little unwilling to deal with long-distance candidates when they’re trying to fill more junior positions and I totally get that, but I wonder if there’s something I can change in my approach to get around that.

      1. Tuckerman*

        This was my experience. I ended up taking a job that was a step up from my former one, in the same field, but not exactly what I wanted to be doing.

    5. LazyCat*

      I was applying long-distance to jobs in Atlanta a few years ago! I used my own address, but closed my cover letters by saying that I would be moving to Atlanta and arriving on (date), and would be available to work immediately after. I can’t remember if I mentioned that I was moving to join my boyfriend (now husband), but I think I didn’t. It worked! I got a job. I was in Atlanta by the time they were doing on site interviews.

      1. Antti*

        Awesome! I’m glad that worked out for you!

        I’ve been planning to get the moving ball rolling once I had a job secured, but maybe I should go ahead and reverse that and get moving solidified beforehand?

        1. LazyCat*

          As context, I’ll add that this was my first job out of grad school, and I was moving without a job if needed, because 4 years of long distance relationship was enough! (I had a time line for how long to hunt in my field before applying for anything). I was in my last months of school when I started applying, so using partner’s address but attending school on the opposite coast would have been obvious.

          Also as context my workplace is a bit dysfunctional, and may have not checked references. They do value attachment to the location though, even if you aren’t local. I had something else to note, but the Internet stole my comment the first time around!

    6. Claire*

      I used my out of state address, but mentioned the relocation at the end of the cover letter. Since I was moving back to the state I grew up in after finishing school, I phrased it as “On a more personal note, as a [State] native, I am overjoyed at the prospect of returning to home as I begin my career.”

      That was last summer, I’m now almost a year into my job, so relocation was successful! I even got most of my moving expenses covered, so added bonus.

    7. e*

      I actually included my in-state address in my recent job search instead of my actual, and I don’t think it helped anything. It’s stated directly on my resume where I currently live and work, and I also am a terrible dissembler. Usually what would happen is the interviewer/recruiter would just ask what was going on and I would tell them, but none of them ever looked at that situation and thought “that person looks local.”

      I did tell them I was moving for personal reasons, regardless of how anything worked out. Someone hired me, so it’s not a total deal breaker.

  20. all aboard the anon train*

    A friend told me today that she had an interview where they asked what her hobbies were and then in the follow up told her that her while she was qualified for the job based on skills, her “hobbies made her the type of person that wouldn’t fit in well with the company culture”.

    This is why I hate those supposed softball questions. There’s always someone who is going to judge you for your answer. TBH I always think a little less of an interviewer when they ask me those questions because I’m always wondering if it’s a trick or what they’re trying to get from it.

    1. NaoNao*

      What hobbies! Taxidermy? Trainspotting? I gots to know.
      I was asked a softball question about what music I’m listening to lately and I answered with a few “cool” bands and then noted ‘I usually just let ‘indie pop’ play on Spotify’. Interviewer: “I hate Spotify!”
      I did get the job. But I would say my general advice is to give “softball answers”

      “Oh, a little bit of everything. I’m still trying to figure out something to do besides binge watching TV every night, ya know?”
      or
      “Ooh, good question. I’ve let a few things drop lately and am looking for some new interests to fill the spot.”

      1. Michael Scarn, CPA*

        Curious about what the hobbies were too. I’m surprised the company was that specific about why they didn’t move forward with the candidate.

      2. all aboard the anon train*

        Via her text: “I said I enjoyed reading and watching Netflix, and hanging out with friends. The interviewer said, “oh, anything else?” so I said I enjoyed trying out new recipes and spent some time volunteering.”

        Apparently her hobbies are too introverted and solo, so it doesn’t show good collaborative or people skills. It was for a small-ish marketing agency and my friend has a lot of experience with some big name companies.

        1. Murphy*

          …maybe you get your people time in at work, and then you like to spend some of your downtime alone. Also, she said hanging out with friends…which is obviously social.

        2. paul*

          I’d be tempted to count it as a bullet dodged, honestly. That sort of place sounds kind of miserable to work for. Oh noes, our employee likes to veg out in offtime, we must go judgy-mcjudgy on them! ew.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Yeeeeeah, I wouldn’t want to work somewhere that judged me harshly for spending my off work time doing low key things. I expend most of my social energy getting through the work day so when I’m done, I like to have time alone to recharge. If you met me in a professional capacity, you would probably peg me as an extrovert.

          2. Sadsack*

            Agreed. I would think spending time volunteering would be impressive and not necessarily an introverted thing to do.

          3. Samata*

            I agree and was going to comment the same.
            1) As long as your hobby isn’t robbing banks I don’t see why it matters
            2) If you are in a team atmosphere or with clients 40 hours a week alone time is just want the doctor ordered
            …and on a side note…
            When is reading ever a bad hobby????

          5. Observer*

            It reminds me of the boss who “allowed” beer runs at work – but just organization wide.

        3. strawberries and raspberries*

          Yeah, screw that place. Before I started grad school I used to volunteer all the time, and there were always those people who were like, “But what do you do for fun?”

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Good thing she did not get a job there.
          They would probably decide she is wearing the wrong color one day and let her go. “Oh that color is too passive( or too aggressive), you won’t fit in with our group.”

          I say only work with people who are willing to, you know, actually work.

        5. Ramona Flowers*

          I share her hobbies and I am awesomely collaborative at work. This blows but she probably dodged a bullet if they think like this…

        6. Mephyle*

          Wow, that is not only judgey but misjudged. Hanging out with friends is introverted and solo? Volunteering doesn’t show collaboration skills?

    2. Murphy*

      What the heck? I’ve never heard of anything like that before. How can they judge based on that? (I’m also curious what the hobbies were, even though that shouldn’t matter at all.)

    4. a casual commenter*

      WTH? Like, what does that even mean? Are you a knitter but the company culture is crochet?

    5. Queen of the File*

      Is this a trick to find out if the person has a life outside of work? Aka ‘we expect everyone to work ungodly hours’ kind of company culture?

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I wrote this in a reply above, but they said her hobbies were too solitary and that didn’t work with the culture.

        Which is ridiculous since there are a lot of people, myself and my friend included, who enjoy being around people, but find it exhausting and need to recharge with solo activities.

        1. Queen of the File*

          Oooof that’s so annoying. I’d never have my job if my current workplace evaluated candidates that way.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Two hobbies she did alone and two she did with people.
          I don’t see anything wrong here.

    6. k.k*

      That would really piss me off! It’s hard to think of any situation where someone’s hobbies would take them out of the running for a job, outside of far-reaching situations where she would likely not being applying anyways (ie a hunter and a vegan activist org).

      On the upside, sounds like she dodged a bullet.

    7. DrPeteLoomis*

      Yikes. This sort of reminds me of a question from the other day that prompted Alison to talk about hiring for a diverse range of lived experiences. This is another classic example of “hiring for cultural fit” gone wrong. Like, a person’s hobbies should have no bearing on how they will fit into the office culture. So, maybe they won’t be joining their coworkers after work at the climbing gym. But maybe they do share a keen attention to detail or some other such actual work-related trait that would make them excellent at the actual work-related goings-on of the office.

    8. Frustrated Optimist*

      Call me cynical, but this sounds like a smokescreen on the part of the employer, especially since the applicant seemed to list a variety of hobbies – some social, some solitary.

      I have to wonder if they already had made a decision on who to hire and were just looking to downgrade the candidacy of an otherwise highly qualified applicant.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        Possibly, but it seems a bit unprofessional to dismiss a candidate for their hobbies instead of saying that they chose to go with someone else.

        It’s sure not going to make them look great if my friend ends up writing a Glassdoor review or tells people and it spreads via word of mouth.

        2. Observer*

          It certainly is. Which makes me wonder if it’s not a smokescreen for something less acceptable.

          Like, perhaps the other candidate is a male with lower qualifications. Or maybe they are just stupid and because they went with a male they want to “cover” themselves.

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      Ugh, that company sucks. Honestly, I think your friend dodged a bullet.

      I loathe interviewers who ask about hobbies, family, etc. None of that is relevant to work, and none of it should be part of the hiring process. My personal life is separate from my work life for a reason!

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        Agreed. I know it’s come up on AAM before, but I sometimes wonder if interviewers realize those “softball” questions, even when they’re intended to break the ice, make some job candidates worry. I hate them because I’m wondering how the interviewer wants me to answer or why it’s relevant to the job.

        It’d be like if a job candidate asked about the interviewer’s hobby instead of asking relevant questions about the position.

    10. Zip Zap*

      Wow. Sounds like their culture isn’t good with work / personal boundaries. I agree it’s a bullet dodged.

  21. SPQR*

    How do I tell a coworker he doesn’t always need to be speaking? I have a (male, early 30s coworker, one half step above me) who will not stop taking. Every line of conversation requires a reply by him, it’s usually not funny, helpful, or interesting. He’s unable to not take up less than 80% off the air in the room and he’s uncomfortable with any and all silences.

    How do I deal with this?!??

    2. Clever Name*

      Headphones? Refusing to engage if he’s making random comments (“I thought you were talking to yourself”). Don’t respond to questions that could plausibly be rhetorical (“oh, I thought that was a rhetorical question and didn’t really require a response”)

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Oh yeah, that is excellent. (I could never be an advice columnist. The way people like Alison or Jennifer come up with such empathetic AND practical responses leaves me in AWE.)

    4. Beancounter Eric*

      A bit wordy, but one I like:
      “It is worth repeating at this point the theories that Ford had come up with, on his first encounter with human beings, to account for their peculiar habit of continually stating and restating the very very obvious, as in “It’s a nice day,” or “You’re very tall,” or “So this is it, we’re going to die.”

      His first theory was that if human beings didn’t keep exercising their lips, their mouths probably shriveled up.

      After a few months of observation he had come up with a second theory, which was this–“If human beings don’t keep exercising their lips, their brains start working.”

      ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

      Walk away, or full discharge a can of Mace in their direction. If you go the Mace route, retain defense counsel, and update your resume.

      I don’t understand why people can’t just be quiet once in a while……Good luck!!

    5. Marisol*

      In what context are you conversing? I don’t have enough details to get a read on this. Do you have an example convo you could share?

    6. Fishcakes*

      If someone’s talking at me and I’m annoyed, my go-to is something like, “Sorry Dwayne, I have to concentrate and can’t listen well right now.” It almost always works.

    7. Snark*

      Mix and match as necessary:

      “Yo Dweezil, I really can’t keep up my end of a conversation right now, I’m trying to focus. Thanks!”

      “Hey man, sorry, I can’t talk, I’m on deadline right now and need to focus.”

      “Hey, Dweezil, I need to reconcile TPS reports today, and I’m gonna need all my brain for that, can’t talk.”

      “Dweezil, like I said, trying to focus now, can’t talk.”

      “IT SHUTS ITS MOUTH OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN”

      All those will probably help. Maybe one less than the others.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      If you can explain how it is impacting your work, you could mention it to the boss.

      I worked with one of these non-stop talkers. My theory is that is how they derive energy. Their own talking, energizes them and gets them through the day.

  22. Mrs. T. Potts*

    Does anyone else feel sick with anxiety before the annual company picnic and/or holiday party?
    Because ours is in less than an hour, and I really, really wish it weren’t.
    I’m going to leave ASAP. Usually people start trickling out after 1.5 hour or so.
    I hate sitting there making small talk with my coworkers, with whom I have just about nothing in common. And Pretending to Have a Good Time and that the food is great.
    No, it isn’t.

    1. NaoNao*

      Aw man.
      Maybe put the focus on networking? Try to talk to people out of your department?
      Or find a job—mine is usually “capture candids”. Get that phone charged and when people try to talk to you, say your bit and then “Well, I’m trying to get some pictures of the action for the newsletter!”
      Or can you help with set up and tear down? Man the drinks or food station?
      Small talk advice: Ask people questions. Start with something to do with work, build on that. Most people love to talk about themselves if given a chance.
      Maybe give yourself goalposts: 20 minutes here, 10 minutes there.
      Can you organize a game or activity that avoids small talk? (catch, beanbags, charades…anything?)

      1. Mrs. T. Potts*

        Oh gosh…This picnic is kinda weird. Nobody talks to anybody outside their department, but I guess that shouldn’t stop me.
        It’s a university, so it’s pretty big and the food services and activities are all organized and taken care of.
        I am one of the few people left on the planet without a smartphone, so no photos.
        Thanks for reaching out! I’m sure I will survive, no matter what.

    2. Murphy*

      I do. I want to engage and be friendly, I’m just socially anxious and nervous about it. So I both look forward to and dread those kind of events.

    3. Quaggaquagga*

      Oh yeah, I feel you. Our company holds an annual overnight retreat every year. There are costumes and team games involved. I end up suffering from intermittent anxiety and bouts of depression for the entire month before the event.

      3. paul*

        …I think I’d schedule elective surgery and file for FMLA leave every year rather than do that. You just described a lesser level of hell for me.

        Sorry boss, getting my vasectomy reversed, gonna miss the retreat!

        1. Snark*

          Nothing quite says one doesn’t want to go to the company picnic than saying you’d prefer a surgeon root around in the ol’ fruit bowl with a scalpel.

      4. Lemon Zinger*

        There was talk in my department about reviving a staff retreat they used to do. Everyone vocalized a strong NOPE and as far as I know, the idea was dropped.

      5. A. Schuyler*

        I used to hate this sort of thing during school (we had them in Year 5, 6, 8, 10, 11 and 12) but we had an offsite with work a couple of years ago which was overnight and involved a fancy dinner and I loved it. I think, for me, it comes down to how much I want to be around those people. With school, I didn’t even want to be around them for the required six or so hours a day. With work, I’m happy to see them much more (which is fortunate given our working hours).

    4. Shiara*

      We just had ours. I survived by dragging my husband along and bringing a frisbee and spending the entire non-food small-talk part of it throwing it around with him and another random coworker I had never met before who was clearly even more uncomfortable with the whole small talk thing and decided to join us.

      And then eating and making minimal smalltalk, then vaguely standing around with the coworkers who were using being the kidwranglers as an excuse not to small talk, and then sneaking out as soon as we reasonably could by pretending we were walking to the bathroom and then from there taking the long way around to sneak back to the parking lot and leave.

      Our food was actually okay, at least. They kept it to basic grilling.

      But you definitely have my sympathies.

    5. k.k*

      I feel your pain. I did a happy dance when I found out this years staff party was planned for a day I will be out of town. No need for a fake excuse!

      When I do have to attend these things, I pretend to look busy and leave as soon as possible. When there is food and drinks, keep your hands and mouth full. You can kill a lot of time browsing the food selection, and it’s easy to nod along to a conversation without saying much if you’re eating. When you get to the awkward pause, excuse yourself to go grab a refill of your drink. I’ve also been known to sneak off and kill some time hiding in the bathroom. People usually don’t notice that you’re missing, and when you reemerge they just notice that you’re still here (leaving early can be noticeable, so this helps with that).

      Good luck fellow small talk hater!

    6. LKW*

      I always found the “last to arrive, first to leave” approach worked well for me. If you’re driving yourself then “get lost” and arrive late and apologize. Find a co-worker or two, ask them something non-invasive and then after a short time leave with an excuse of “family commitment”.

      And I say this being absolutely fabulous at small talk. I am great at it. Hate it though.

    7. Beancounter Eric*

      I loathe company picnics/parties…..and unfortunately, the conventional wisdom is you have to go.

      Last couple, I go, break out the camera and take pictures. Oh, and have a timer running on my phone to give me a heads-up on a socialy acceptable time to leave.

      Best of luck to you….

    8. Marisol*

      I can relate–I don’t worry beforehand but I obsess about it afterward. If you have time, google EFT tapping and tap about your anxiety. It always helps me.

    9. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I feel your pain. Hate office parties with a vengeance. In the past I’ve actually had to be ordered to go as I tend to find creative ways to have to stay at my desk to hold down the fort. Show up and make an appearance so the powers that be know you were there, then run off at your earliest opportunity works well. It’s my modus operandi when forced to attend these things.

    10. Jules the First*

      Heh heh…I literally just volunteered to stay late and work on some stuff that my grandboss wanted to review over the weekend so I could duck out on the company picnic.

    11. This Daydreamer*

      One year my mom was helping prepare for the annual picnic for her workplace when she slipped on some gravel and broke her ankle. I think she was honestly relieved that she was going to be unable to attend the picnic.

  23. Nervous Accountant*

    Thanks everyone for hte help in last week’s thread on both of my questions!

    I did another training this week–it was for current employees and more of a refresher than anything else so it went significantly better. I came up with a guideline and a few writing examples I had. Next week, I’m doing a training but for a brand new group of people who are all new–I am nervous about that! I tend to be nervous around new people.

    On another note, it’s been such a weird week. I had a conversation that I was NOT ready for. And I received some information that I’ve been sworn to secrecy and it’s kind of eating me up (ok that’s a little dramatic but still).

    I came to the sad realization that this company will most likely never pay us long term employees market rate because to do so would be a 30% + increase and that’s….unheard of. So if we’re REALLY desperate for market rate, we’ll have to start looking elsewhere. I’m still iffy on leaving but Im coming around to the idea of looking.

    I had a little downtime yesterday so I re-read my open post threads from I started working here, over 2.5 years ago. I’m proud to say I’ve come so far (I’m not really nervous any more lol) and things have changed for the better (socially, work processes, my own confidence etc).

    I’ve heard the phrase “people don’t leave bad jobs, they leave bad bosses/people” a lot. And there are literally 4-5 people here that if they left, I’d leave with them (not follow, but go my own way). Environment and type of people to work with are super important to me. I know I’ve written about the bad moments here before but majority of the toxic people are gone. There’s dysfunction but at different levels now, not at the direct peer/mgr level.

    Evaluations still haven’t been done yet, but there’s been buzz.

    1. The IT Manager*

      This is an awesome update. I haven’t been able to keep up with AAM comments and open threads as much for the past year, but I do remember your early comments. I’m glad it’s gotten better and you’ve gotten less nervous.

  24. Nonprofit Director*

    I currently work at a nonprofit agency in NYC, but my partner and I are hoping to relocate to the Philadelphia area. I am originally from the Philadelphia area, but being (relatively) young, all of my significant work experience has been in NYC. As I look for jobs in the nonprofit sector, and specifically in my area of expertise-workforce development-I am finding that many positions are asking for “demonstrated knowledge of Philadelphia city laws/resources/policies, etc.” While I can certainly research this information, all of my direct experience has been with NYC policies. Any ideas on how I can navigate this during my job search? Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      Are there any certifications you can get or long-distance classes you could take (maybe a couple of low-level law classes at a community college or something more related to what your nonprofit does)?

    2. Rebecca*

      Hi! I live in Philly! I’m also fairly young, and have been here for a few years, but this is not my place of origin. In my (limited, ymmv) experience, places really truly do want experience with this city. Because Philly is so special (to put it nicely), you need to have experience dealing with the way the city/PA state government interact. Is it feasible to volunteer in the area before searching actively for jobs?

    3. LDP*

      I would probably mention something about being from the area in your cover letter. Maybe you could even highlight how you had to learn those things when you were working in NYC, so you have knowledge of how to find any info you don’t already know?

    4. IvyGirl*

      Start perusing the http://www.phila.gov website, and reading up on http://www.philly.com (Philadelphia Inquirer/Daily News) for what’s going on in the city.

      Know that absolutely nothing gets done in this city without going through the City Council. Learn the districts and the council people that represent them (and the at-large council people too).

      Know that the ward system is the main voting/organizing mechanism, and that it’s representation is in the process of a sea change. Familiarize yourself with the structure @ http://www.philadelphiavotes.com.

      Visit the Committee of Seventy ( http://www.seventy.org) and Philadelphia 3.0 websites ( http://www.phila3-0.org ).

      That should get you started. Also consider getting involved in the local RCO (registered civic organization) in your neighborhood and read up on the city zoning code (

    5. Yay Philly*

      I’m also a Philly -> NYC -> Philly person. I love it here and am so glad I came back. I’ve never faced the exact situation you describe but whenever I have applied for a job where I was missing something, I try to make an argument that some experience I *do* have is relevant. The trick is to do it without sounding defensive.

      You could say “I’ve never worked in Philly, but I’ve interfaced with such and such NYC department on such and such policy…” But that sounds defensive.

      So instead, can you put some stuff in your cover letter like “In my first six months at LastJob, I accomplished [things that show you got up to speed fast]. I’ve worked with agencies as varied as X, Y, and Z.” Things that show you can (a) master complex policies and political environments and (b) get up to speed quickly. Then, they can conclude _on their own_ that you could learn the Philly environment quickly too.

      It won’t always work, but so often the employer doesn’t get their dream candidate (the person with your qualifications + Philly experience). And when that happens, your letter should work.

      1. Nonprofit Director*

        Thanks so much for the feedback everyone! It is true that when I first moved to NYC, I had to learn a lot (and quickly) regarding it’s laws, politics, mayor’s office, etc. I manage city and state funded programs, and the target population is adults on public assistance, particularly in the Bronx. I am confident that I can, and will, transfer my skills to a Philly employer. I should also mention that I have worked in Philadelphia before (my first two jobs right out of graduate school) but my director level experience is all in NYC.

  25. Small but Fierce*

    I had every intention of sticking with my current position until the end of the year, but I have a final interview in a couple of weeks for a promising position that could pay up to 20% more than what I currently make. That said, I currently have 2.5 weeks of travel scheduled in the fall for my wedding and honeymoon. I really would prefer not to take this large amount of time unpaid. While I’m comfortable negotiating as far as salary goes, I’m still fairly entry-level and don’t have much experience with negotiating for PTO and other benefits?

    Any tips on negotiating for benefits as an entry-level person?

    Also, any advice for a final interview appreciated! As far as I’m aware, I’m the only candidate in this round. From what I’ve been told, this interview may be just to get a check of approval from the VPs who weren’t in the office last time I was there.

    1. Small but Fierce*

      *other benefits.

      Also, a ton of comments within five minutes! I must not be the only one who waited for the moment this posted. :)

    2. SansaStark*

      Does the PTO accrue over time or do you get the lump sum at the beginning of your tenure? I’ve had jobs where you’d get your pro-rated PTO hours on Day 1 – if that’s the case, you may be ok. If not…you could try asking to “borrow” against your future PTO accruals with the understanding that you’d pay that back if you left the job with some hours left outstanding. I’ve found that people are usually pretty understanding about big life events like a wedding/honeymoon and will try to work with you on that. Good luck and best wishes!

      1. Small but Fierce*

        My understanding is that it accrues – hopefully from day one, but the information I’ve been given isn’t clear on that point. You can borrow up to 40 hours in advance, but you’d have to pay it back before the end of the year as it doesn’t roll over. I wouldn’t accrue enough to pay it back in that amount of time, so I’d have to pay at least some of it back. I’m wondering if I could ask for a one time exception to that policy as part of my offer.

        1. SansaStark*

          Ugh yeah, that’s tough. I think it’s certainly worth asking about the exception, but I like Victoria’s suggestion below about setting aside your larger salary to “pay” yourself for those weeks if they can’t do that.

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          Everything is negotiable. It’s not unusual to include vacation, in particular vacation during your first year, as part of the overall compensation negotiation. In my current job I asked for a full year of vacation during my first year, even though I was starting mid-year. It wasn’t an issue in my case, but that might not be true for others. Once you get your offer, ask for other things you need, in your case a full year’s vacation.

    3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I don’t think you’re going to have much luck negotiating to get 2.5 weeks of paid time off in your first couple of months on the job, especially if you’re entry level. That’s likely close to a full year’s worth of vacation time.

      You could try addressing it by asking about whether PTO can be advanced (rather than asking for additional time), but I’m having a hard time imagining an employer advancing that much time (that would mean you wouldn’t get any vacation for several months, which isn’t good for anyone; they would also have to figure out how to manage the possibility that you could live before “paying back” the time you’d been given).

      But the good news is that this new job pays a lot more! Can you aggressively save the 20% differential (or more?) to “pay yourself” for the upcoming time off?

      1. Small but Fierce*

        Yes, I believe PTO is three weeks, so it would definitely be a big ask. I’m considering asking if I can borrow up to 40 as policy allows, but without the caveat that it has to occur prior to the end of the year. Maybe that would be more reasonable.

        Financially, it’s a hit I could afford if it needed to be unpaid. It’s just a pain point for me since I have over 100 hours accrued currently that I’ll completely lose if I leave. But if I do get the 15%-20% bump in salary, I really shouldn’t consider that much of a sticking point.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Oh bummer — your leave from your current job won’t pay out? That’s a shame!

    4. a casual commenter*

      Could you negotiate the start date to be after your vacation, so you take the vacation on the current job’s time? I know that probably depends on industry; I know somebody here saying “I need to start three months from now” would probably be fine.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        That’d be ideal, especially since I could get closer to the two year point at my current job and get some of my employer’s 401k match vested. But it seems like they’re swamped and in need of help ASAP.

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        In my world, that would never happen for an entry-level position (unless you were already connected to the org and they were essentially creating/holding a job for you).

        1. Small but Fierce*

          Agreed! I’m in the pipeline for another opportunity right now that actually is willing to wait until after my honeymoon to hire me, but 1. I’m connected with one of their directors, who passed my resume along. and 2. They’re hiring “for the fall” and don’t have a specific date in mind. We haven’t talked salary though, and given what I know of this specific role in this industry, most companies wouldn’t give me more than I already currently make without a few more years of experience. The job I have the final interview for is an anomaly as far as salary goes.

    5. H.C.*

      Does PTO at your current job cash out? If it does, you can set that money aside for when you take your leave with NewJob.

      If not, I agree with others asking for PTO advance is probably your best option (with the expectation that they might not be able to grant it – esp if your NewJob has a probationary period where all benefits may not kick in until you’re a few months in with that employer.)

      1. Small but Fierce*

        I wish! Unfortunately this is the type of company that’d sooner walk me out than let me work out my notice, much less pay out PTO when you leave. (That said, I still intend to give two weeks, even if that results in an unpaid vacation.)

        Yes, I’ll probably just ask if I can borrow without having to pay it back before the end of the year, given I’d be starting in September and taking my vacation in November.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          If they have shown that they walk people out, then give them no notice. They can’t expect anything more if they consistently treat people badly as they leave.

  26. Santa Maria*

    I have been at my job for 2 years, with 18 months of that in M&A activity. I’m fatigued from the process: the waiting, the speculation, the worrying, the never ending rumors. I just want to know how it’s going to play out. Every time the bigwigs share “exciting new information” it just leads to more questions. We’re hoping to have new offer letters sometime in August. I’m early in my career and this has just put me off to the working world in general. I don’t know that I actually have a question… I guess I wanted to vent and maybe someone will have some encouraging advice to share.

    1. pat benetardis*

      So – are you working on M&A deals, or working at a company that is undergoing a merger/acquisition?

      If it’s the former, think about what makes your contribution to the situation valuable. You can’t get all self-worth only from a successful deal, since so many factors can make or break it. But there are things you are learning and contributing which are important contributors that if your frame it up to yourself and believe it, you can feel good about.

      If you are at a company that is being merged or acquired. That’s tough. For me, in those situations, I just had to ride it out. Don’t get worked up by any rumors because the majority are likely to be wrong. Keep your resume up to date and when the company is ready to tell you something, they will. An open-minded, go with the flow mentality will serve you well.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Is your company being sold and there’s no buyer yet?
      Yeah, that is lots of drama. I can understand why you’d feel put off.
      Maybe it’s time to look around and see what else is out there.

  27. AndersonDarling*

    Did you overcome your anxiety about a new job and succeed?
    My husband has gone through some rough patches with his last jobs and has been feeling down in the dumps. He was in some short term toxic jobs and had a long patch of unemployment, and he understandably feels beaten down and crummy. But good news! He got an interview and was asked to come back for a day to observe the job in action! The job ad asked for experienced and inexperienced applicants, and he made it very clear during the interview that he would need lots of training to get up and running, but he keeps thinking that they may be expecting more skills, or knowledge, and he generally thinks he couldn’t do the job well even though he has done similar jobs and this one really is a good match for him.
    I was hoping to hear some happy stories from others who overcame their lack of confidence and everything turned out well.

    1. Spice for this*

      My husband started a new job in a new city in 2012. He had lots of challenges in the beginning and felt out of his league for a while. And after 4-6 months, he finally felt at ease and had the confidence to complete most of the projects on his own. What really helped him was a very understanding and supportive boss.
      Good luck to your husband, and I hope he gets the job!

    2. Blue Anne*

      I’m just now starting to get through a very similar situation.

      I’m a bookkeeper/accountant and moved from the UK to the USA a year and a half ago. I started a job at a small accounting firm in September, and it was pretty terrifying. I was totally up front with them in the interviews that I had zero knowledge of American taxes, and beyond that, most of my experience was in management accounting and auditing, which are totally different from the public accounting, bookkeeping and TONS of tax work they do. In theory I knew how to do it all, but up until then my jobs had basically involved checking people’s work instead of doing the work myself. They offered me the job anyway.

      I had a learning curve like a brick wall. I have had to do a ton of looking things up, lots and lots of asking questions, lots of educating myself in the evenings. I had a couple of months where it was totally miserable. But… I got good feedback, people were happy to answer my questions, and almost a year later, I’m starting to really enjoy my job. I still feel like I’m constantly being given things that are a little bit over my head, but holy crap, I’m learning so much as a result of that. And I’ve proven to myself that I can handle that situation.

      So it has worked out really well! I’m thinking of asking for a title bump to Staff Accountant in another six months.

    3. Birdbrain*

      I had a job like that! I didn’t have a lot of experience in some aspects of the role and starting any new job made me nervous because of past bad experiences.

      I was terribly anxious and was convinced that I would be fired if I made a mistake or had to ask for help. And I was worried that they would expect me to know All The Things immediately even though I had been clear about my lack of experience. Of course, none of that was true and most people were more than willing to help me out when I needed it. I forced myself to do the scary things and I worked hard… but it got easier. And easier. And eventually I became the go-to person for a lot of the projects that had worried me at the start! I still deal with some of those anxieties due to my own personality, but it’s a lot easier when I can look back at successes instead of imagining worst-case scenarios. It’s 5+ years later and I’m still at the same organization, doing a job that I would never have been confident enough to try when I first started.

      Good luck to your husband!

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I love my job, but I did not love it when I started. With my manager working offsite and a key position in the office vacant, my training fell entirely to my counterpart. She was dissatisfied with her job and disillusioned with pretty much everything, so she trained me as little as possible and avoided me constantly. I had to pick up on everything mostly by myself. The first six months, I felt like I had no idea what I was doing.

      That was literally as bad as it could have been. I overcame the experience by taking it one day at a time until I felt confident with the extensive subject matter I deal with. That was a year ago and things are so much better now!

    5. DDJ*

      I had a job like that! I was a temp and a permanent position opened up, but I didn’t have the experience OR the education they were looking for. But they approached me about taking the job and said they thought I could do it.

      It was a bit of a struggle to start, but with training and support, I was very successful in the role. You have to be willing to ask questions, seek clarification, and make it known when you need training on a task (or when you’re struggling). If you can do that, and if you’re honest about your strengths and your areas that need improvement, I don’t see why you can’t have great success.

      So much of a job is about “how we do it.” So you could have loads if experience in an industry, but the new job uses a whole different set of software or tools or whatever. If you’ve got the knowledge to get you there and a willingness to be taught and to learn, that’s a big part of the battle right there.

      When I first started supervising people, I was terrified. I had no management training (although I did a bit of schooling for it, but hypotheticals in a classroom don’t fully prepare you to actually be a leader). My manager was an amazing resource and understood that I’d need some coaching because it was a new skill that needed to be developed.

      With good management, great things are possible. If they liked him in the interview and they decide to offer him the position, it’s because they see someone they want to work with. And someone worth developing.

  28. CDN HR*

    Hello,
    I have a question about how long you should stay in a position before it’s reasonable to move on. So I worked at my current company as an administrator for about eight months (it was a horrible job and everyone knows that) before being promoted to the HR Manager (in the workings since I was originally hired). This is my first position out of post-secondary and I’m also the first person in this role so I started the entire department from scratch and have done a pretty great job, according to multiple sources. In the next year and a bit we’re expecting major changes to the structure of the company and I suspect this will make my job far more difficult as those that believe in having an HR department are leaving the country and those that fight me on everything are staying behind. I’ve been in this role for about 15 months, is it too soon to move on? If so, how long should I wait before moving on? If it’s not too soon, how long do you think I need to stay in the next position before moving on to avoid looking like a job hopper?
    Thank you so much for any advice you can offer.

    1. Small but Fierce*

      I’m in a similar boat. First job out of college, a year and eight months in. I’ve been “open to opportunities” on LinkedIn for around six months now, but rarely applied for anything. In the past six months, I’ve had three interviews, one job offer that I turned down, and another offer that I anticipate will come in the next month that I’ll likely accept.

      It is generally said that two years is the minimum you should put into any given job. If you start job hunting now, you very well could get a job offer that you’d accept beyond that two year point. It takes time and you should be picky about your next step.

      1. CDN HR*

        even if it’s a manager role, which is senior and that’s kind of a miracle for how much experience I have? It’s won’t seem unusual that I’ve let such a great position?

        1. Small but Fierce*

          I don’t think so! Everyone has their reasons for leaving, and I’m sure whatever yours are will make sense to a future employer as long as it’s not just moving for the sake of a change. If anything, you’re in a good position to start applying elsewhere since you’ve been promoted, which speaks to the quality of your work.

    2. Nanc*

      You may as well start looking. Unless something falls into your lap it will probably take a few months to find something and at that point you’ll have hit the two year mark.

    3. ...with a K*

      I took a new job last year, thinking that I was going to love it. I didn’t. I gave it less than a year (11 months) and changed jobs. I figured life was too short to be crying in my office all the time. No one has thought less of me for staying that short of a time, and the things I learned in that job have helped me in my new one.

    4. Dotty*

      I don’t think it’s too soon to look, particularly as it can take a while to find the right thing but bear in mind that you’d probably then need to stay in the next job for longer so as not to have a pattern of short stays so choose carefully. Also worth thinking whether it’s something you can live with for a while – with starting as an admin then moving to HR manager your time in the most recent, senior role is less, if you’ve put in that hard work and done very well by the sounds of it, staying a little longer could be useful for the CV. I’d get your CV ready and keep an eye out but be really picky on what you apply for – even if that takes a bit longer – so you’re confident you’d be leaving for a better job

    5. Airedale*

      So you’ve been at the company as a whole for almost 2 years, right? (8 months admin + 15 months new role) Plus you think the long-term staff remaining want to push you out because they “don’t believe in having an HR department and fight you on everything”? If I were you, I’d get out of there. Good luck either way.

      1. CDN HR*

        They aren’t pushing me out but they skip over me if possible and generally disagree with me, I think because it’s me, only to suggest the idea two months later as their own. Whereas my boss always encourages my ideas and tells others not to skip over my role in the process. He is one of the ones leaving the country.

    6. AliceBD*

      I was at my first position for 17.5ish months (mid-May 2011 to early February 2013) and then left for a position that was a much better fit. I’ve just left the second position after 4.5 years. I had 2 positions at each of the companies. During my job search the length of time at companies was never brought up.

  29. T3k*

    So had phone interview this week. I think a major concern is almost all my examples for writing are volunteer based because my professional field is design. To make things worse, I’m a geek and yes, all my writing examples show that.

    But I have a question about something else.. Do general/speculative applications with companies actually go anywhere? I recently applied to one with a nice cover letter and resume but began to think that I’ve never heard of anyone actually getting a job because they just submitted to a company’s general pool and if I’m just wasting my time submitting letters to these? It’s not that I haven’t heard back before though (I submitted one once to a fairly new company a few years ago and quickly got rejected from that).

    1. No, please*

      My mother was recently hired by applying to a very large company through their website’s “Careers at Company” section. She was lucky, I guess, to happen to live in the exact area they were short staffed. So I think there’s always a chance! I hope this is encouraging.

  30. Izzy Legal*

    Just looking for advice here…

    What is the difference between too heavy of a workload, and poor time management?

    For background: my company is in an industry which has declined over the past two years. I’ve survived two rounds of layoffs, and while some work has shifted away from me, it’s not equal to the work that has now been shifted onto me. (We bill our hours, so I can demonstrate this.)

    So I am just trying to pinpoint where to make changes. There is someone in my department to delegate to, but she is very unreliable. I don’t supervise this person, so cannot directly address this performance issue.

    Any one else in the same boat, and if so, how did you approach?

    1. Marillenbaum*

      It sounds like it might be necessary to go to the unreliable person’s manager when they drop the ball on tasks you need them to complete. The problem isn’t that you are working inefficiently; it’s that the person you should be able to rely on to support you in work tasks isn’t doing their job.

    2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      If you are delegating to a person who isn’t completing the work, you should speak with them about why. Are they too busy? Do they need more training on your items? You most certainly can address this performance issue because it is impacting you. If she has other priorities that take precedent and cannot complete your tasks, she should be telling you as soon as possible. You aren’t addressing it as a reassignment of duties or trying to tell her your items take precedent. You are trying to see if the process of delegation to her simply isn’t viable anymore.

      Depending on her response and whether there is an improvement, you should speak to your supervisor/manager about what the options are. “Fergus, I’ve noticed that some of the items I’ve sent to Jane aren’t completed on time. If she is too busy to accept an assignment from me, are there other options? Should I reach out to someone else?”

      You aren’t criticizing her work or unreliability, but you are bringing up the results – deadlines are missed and you are overwhelmed.

    3. curmudgeon*

      oh wow – I have been struggling with this… I was told I have a time management problem; I believe it is a workload problem (too much, not enough hours in the day).
      Can anyone recommend a time management course so I can show I am at least trying?

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I don’t have a time management course to recommend, but I will suggest that you track exactly what you’re doing and how long it’s taking you to complete various tasks. That will help you determine if it is a time management or workload problem and identify areas where things can be streamlined.

        1. curmudgeon*

          not sure how to track stuff –
          10:05-10:10 went to front door to let in FedEx guy
          10:11-10:14 sold over the phone
          10:15-10:25 back to front door to get delivery; also picked up & sorted mail
          10:26-10:35 delivered mail
          10:27-10:31 interrupted mail to answer phone
          10:32 – 10:40 coffee refill, stepping out to restroom
          etc etc etc?

          what about overlapping things? i.e. printed documents for an hour while I ate lunch & also answered the phone 4 times and went back to front door to open for meeting (someone else’s)

          Not trying to be obtuse but want to understand how; and how do I defend that this is not a waste of time to do when CEO poo-poos it?

          And this is the “slow” time…

          1. DDJ*

            It sounds like you might have a position that involves tiny time-drainers. But there’s no way to know for sure when those time-drainers will occur. Which means that trying to figure out average workload/capacity is difficult because one day, you could end up twiddling your thumbs for 20 minutes in between tasks, but another day you could be full-out the entire day and feel like you could barely catch a breath.

            If that’s the case, I would recommend you look at specific, full tasks that should be shifted over to the other employee, and then talk to that employee’s supervisor about it first. If you can approach it as “Hey, just wondering if Bleminda might have a bit of extra time to take on a task. I’m finding that my capacity is a bit strained so I’m just looking at a more effective way to organize my day and delegate some of the work.”

            Then Supervisor might need to talk to Bleminda about it and get back to you. But what you want to do is shift something in its entirety, so that it’s not at all on your plate anymore. If you think that’s feasible. I wouldn’t suggest partial delegation, like “can you cover the front door when I’m too busy?” because if she does tend to let things slide, she’s just never going to provide coverage for you. You need her and her supervisor to take accountability for whatever tasks you’re thinking of delegating.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I admit to being somewhat biased, but the answer is metrics – start tracking what you’re doing, and how much time you’re spending on it. (include the metrics in this as well, and try not to let tracking your time /use up/ too much of your time. But since you already have hours to bill, I feel like you’re likely to be part way in this process?). Advantages – if you’re honestly overwhelmed with work, it’s easy to show that by showing how much time you’ve worked on things, you can identify process bottlenecks (and people bottlenecks), and you can possible find ‘safe; things to delegate that are time consuming but hard to mess up.
      This may be especially useful since a lot of companies seem to think billable time is the only time that exists, and all the overhead and such magically gets done by itself. But if you can show that it takes you 3 hours a week to do the TPS reports, and those aren’t billable, you may be able to convince someone you don’t need to do them.

      1. Toph*

        Another thing that may or may not help, but if there is someone else in the same role with the same type of responsibilities and you can compare like tasks, that might also give insight. If it takes one person an hour to do their BLAH report and it takes another person 3 hours, when they both go through the same process for said report, if the 3 hour person is the one who’s been accused of inefficiency, the data supports that. But if everyone takes an hour, and the person with the “time management problem” was assigned to do five, and everyone else was only responsible for three, then it’s a workload problem. That’s a simplified example of course, but worth looking into.

  31. Wandering*

    How old is too old to still not be sure of what you want to do in life?

    I have friends who’ve known what they wanted to be since high school and have set out to achieve that. I feel as if I’ve been too easily swayed by opinions of my teachers and pressure from relatives as well.

    It’s only in recent years that I’ve started to narrow down what I’m really interested in, but I’m in my early 30s now and it’s hard to feel like…I really should’ve pulled myself together ages ago.

    I mean, I’ve been working since graduating from uni, and discovering a bit more about what my strengths/weaknesses are with each role, but none of them have felt like a ‘yup, this is it’ sort of situation.

    1. tw*

      even if you begin at 40, you still have more than 20 years of your career left.
      “Don’t feel guilty if you don’t know what to do with your life/ The most interesting people
      /I know didn’t know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives/
      Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don’t” — Everybody’s Free (to Wear Sunscreen)

    2. SansaStark*

      I feel like what you want to do can fluctuate as your life circumstances change, so your best bet is to figure out what kind of life and work you want to have now and adjust your course as things change.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Well, I’m even older & have been working in the same field since college, and am not sure it’s the field I want to be in (I’m actually more sure that it is not). I think it’s a myth that there is some magical “one thing” you’re going to discover and want to do forever. Jobs and fields change. You change. Your life circumstances change.

      I really can’t think of many people I know who has wanted to do “X” since they were 5 and just absolutely love it forever. I had a friend who went to school for it and became a zookeeper, and is now an ultrasound tech (for humans) and has 5 kids. I mean, that seems like pretty “dream job” territory, and it didn’t even work out long term for her. What hope is there for those of us who just move numbers and papers around for a living?

      1. SansaStark*

        That’s such a good point. I know one person like that – my dad who is a lawyer. And even then, he’s changed the type of law he practices several times over his 40+ year career. My peers who have stayed in the same job for over 10+ years are only doing so because they feel trapped, not because it’s fulfilling a “dream job” fantasy.

      2. Manders*

        Yes! I’m one of those people who actually did go through childhood and early adulthood with my eyes on the prize of a particular dream job. My expectations of when I will actually get that job have changed as I learn more about it. It turns out you don’t publish your first novel and immediately become financially stable enough to quit your day job! And publishing is a hard industry to get into and there aren’t enough job openings for everyone who wants to be an editor! And universities aren’t hiring thousands of people to work as creative writing teachers for a living wage!

        I ended up in a field I like for now. I don’t know if I’ll like it forever, but when I’m ready to make my next career shift, I’ll be doing it with a big cushion of savings in case things don’t work out.

    5. periwinkle*

      I finally figured out what I wanted to do when I grew up… in my mid-40’s. It took a few years (plus grad school) to get into that field, but I’m here and loving it. I think the indecision earlier in my working life really helped because the experiences helped me identify working strengths and preferences (plus weaknesses and stuff I really really hated doing), which in turn pointed me to appropriate fields. Sometimes you just need to trip over the right combination! I’m working in a field I’d never even heard of until I started grad school.

      Perhaps you could do what others have here – post a list of what you’re looking for in a career or just what you’ve found to be your strengths & interests, and ask for suggestions!

      1. Mimmy*

        Oh good, now I don’t feel so bad for STILL being unsure of my career goals at age 43!

    6. LKW*

      It’s really easy to say “I want to be a teacher or a doctor.” but it’s much harder to say “I want to be a doctor specializing in research with a primary focus on oncological hematology.” So if you’ve started to find a focus, great – that’s better than most of us who have found ourselves in jobs that we didn’t know existed when we were in grade school like “Quality Assurance Manager” or “Government Relations Specialist”.

      Don’t get me wrong – I really like my job, and I’m doing well but this is not what I envisioned when I was in my teens and 20’s.

      So if you want to make changes, understand the impact, understand the time commitment and don’t allow yourself to be dissuaded if it’s something you really want.

    7. anon24*

      Oh I can sympathise so much with this! I’m 25 and never went to college because I never really had money and had no clue what I’d major in anyway. I started working at a small business when I was 15, and slowly worked my way up until I was made the assistant manager at 21. Then I got married and moved away at 23 and just floated jobs for the past 2 years, always desperately miserable and feeling so depressed. It’s so hard to get past society’s expectation that you should be a driven individual who has specific career goals by age 18. I stopped talking to people and have basically been hiding away because I feel like such a loser. I finally decided to enroll in a certification program in a field I’ve always been interested in, but never really thought it would be feasible to enter. I figure even if I fail at this at least I tried! Of course now I am depressed because I’m 25 and just starting school and just starting to get my sh!t together while everyone else is years ahead of me.

      Everyone has a different path in life and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think it’s very sad that society pressures people to pick a career and stay in it and use the career to define yourselves. Some of us are born knowing their place in life, and some of us might not find out until much later, and that is ok!

    8. Beancounter Eric*

      I’m in my 50’s…sometimes I ask myself that question…..it could be the mid-life crisis talking, though.

      Early 30’s….you’re fine.

      Keep wandering, and enjoy the journey….you’ll get there.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It’s not a midlife crisis. At least for me. I am in my 50s and still I wonder.
        I landed on taking jobs that meshed with my natural abilities. I have changed arenas a couple times.
        If you can’t come up with a better plan at least put yourself where you will have some successes.

    9. Lurker who knits*

      When I changed majors in college, my dad said (to paraphrase) that the days of having one career path from graduation to retirement were gone and that I probably would have two or three different careers. I didn’t feel a ‘yup, this is it’ until I was older than you. And, even then it is daunting because some aspects are very challenging, and I have a lot to learn (still taking steps to get to where I want to be). I think I felt guilty about letting go of past decisions and feeling pressure to see something through to the bitter end.

      I sympathize with feeling like you should have pulled yourself together by now. However, I’m surprised by how I’m resurrecting dormant skills from jobs that I thought had no relevance. No experience is wasted. At the very worst, you have crossed one option off your list and are getting closer to narrowing things down.

    10. Tuckerman*

      I think what’s important is first figuring out what you need and want in your life. For example, right now I need good health insurance. I want a low-risk career because I don’t like stressing out about bills and job security. So that limits my options, but also helps clarify them. In 10 years, I may be in a position where low-risk is not so important, and my options will change.

    11. Sydney Bristow*

      I just got a book that is all about this. it was written by a couple of Stanford professors. It’s called Designing Your Life by William Burnett and Dave Evans. The book came out of a class they started teaching that was open for students, mid-career people, and retirees. I’m only just starting to read it so I can’t fully recommend it yet, but you might find it helpful.

      1. Phlox*

        My mother liked that book so much that she mailed me two hardcover copies about six months apart. I’ve found the small sections I’ve read helpful.

      2. Sheep*

        Thanks for telling us about this book! I just read through the available pages on Amazon, and decided to buy it. It looks really good, I’m excited!

    12. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      I’ve been working for 30 years and I had a job I thought was my dream job, but then it became toxic and horrible and I was laid off and now my dream job is “let me leave work at work, don’t make me talk to people, and hopefully give me benefits.” Maybe nothing is the one – some people do find that one awesome thing they love, some of us are just working to pay the bills and hoping for not too much toxicity. I think both things can be great – I loved going to work for at least 5,6 years. I’m pretty happy with my complete lack of ambition career wise these days in a way I would have been surprised about 10 years ago.

    13. Working Rachel*

      You’re totally normal. I think the path to career happiness is just to figure out little by little, job by job, what you like and don’t like, and try to do more of what you like and less of what you don’t like. You could say I’ve “switched industries” several times, but each change has built on what I learned about work and about myself at the job before.

    14. HannahS*

      I know a guy who went to medical school when he was 40. So it’s not ever too late. But I also know someone who wanted to get his doctorate in something (I can’t remember what–maybe some science), was discouraged by professor, and went in to banking. It was fine. I think he felt neutral about his job, and he maybe worked there for about 35 years before being laid off (in a massive layoff). He took it as a cue to retire, and now spends his days volunteering with the elderly. He enjoys it, but, again, I don’t think he’s really passionate about it. The point of this apparently-depressing example is that this guy is happy and has a great life. He’s happily married, loves his adult-children, had a great social life, plays sports, and travels the world with his wife. Work isn’t a “calling” for everyone, and if you don’t have a great passion to do any one specific thing, then I think being on the track of getting closer and closer to positions that are super well-suited to you is totally fine.

  32. Rebecca*

    I’ve never left a regular full-time office job before, and I’m finding my notice period to be very awkward! Any tips for navigating the “I’m leaving here very shortly” period?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      If you aren’t already, start putting together a transition document that outlines where you are with key projects, important information pertaining to your role, where certain files are located, etc. — basically anything that would be helpful to someone who steps in to take over your work. Make sure you and your manager are on the same page about whether or not you should be taking on new projects or simply working to wrap up existing projects.

    2. LKW*

      Try not to smile like an idiot – most short timers who are leaving by their own decision just smile a lot because they are moving up and on.

      Kidding – you can smile a lot, just be prepared for teasing.

    3. Airedale*

      It’s normal for it to be awkward, unfortunately. Just keep a low-key vibe of, “Even though this is for the best for me in my career, I’m going to miss everyone here and I’m grateful for what I’ve learned.”

  33. Anne*

    It’s my last day of work!

    I honestly cannot thank this site/Alison enough. Without all the advice I spent hours and hours reading on here, I’m not sure I would have even gotten an interview for my new job – AAM helped me pitch myself as a great fit in my cover letter despite being overqualified, helped me think of my current role in terms of accomplishments rather than duties and then present those accomplishments in my interviews, helped me negotiate the salary higher, and finally – answered my question about whether it was ok to ask for two whole weeks off in between jobs! Starting tomorrow I am funemployed for 16 glorious days, after 4+ years of a very stressful job.

    And also… AAM (both the posts and the commenters) helped me realize that my current job had some major issues that were not gonna go away, and gave me the final push I needed to apply for new jobs in the first place.

    Thank you thank you thank you!

      1. Anne*

        Today I updated the calendar of all the reports that are coming due over the next couple of years, and I thought to myself… oh my god, I don’t have to do ANY of these!

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      FUNEMPLOYED–I loooove it!!! Congrats on the new job. Once you’ve settled in, post and let us know how it’s going.

  34. Jimbo*

    I recently shared with my supervisor some difficulties and stress I’ve had on the job. These had to do with my emotional health but also with practical asepcts of the job that would induce stress in anybody with or without emotional health issues. He recently forwarded me a human resources email that outlines the EAP services available in our organization as a benefit.

    I know about the EAP already and have actually been using it for months to deal with the issues and stress I’ve been experiencing with this project. It is just odd to me that my boss is forwarding me this info. Is he trying to be helpful? It is weirding me out. I am having my mid-year evaluation in a couple of weeks. If this issue of my emotional health crops up, how best to address it?

    I know I am not obligated to reveal any details of my mental health activities to my employer and I don’t plan to. Maybe I can just say something along the lines of: “I have had stressful moments on this job. I have used the EAP service and also use the in-person services of health professionals in my coping strategy. Is there anything in particular that is of concern to you?” If he answers yes, then maybe we can have an honest conversation about what may be bothering him that he would send me a note about EAP.

    1. edj3*

      I’ve shared EAP information with several of my direct reports after they’ve told me they are handling highly stressful issues. At least three didn’t know that resource was available, and were really glad to get the information.

      I’d take it as your manager being helpful and ensuring you know about EAP and know you can use it. If he’s like me, he doesn’t need to know details you don’t want to share, he just wants to know you have some benefits you can use.

    2. special snowflake*

      Honestly I think you’re overthinking this. You had a conversation (where it seems you didn’t mention using the EAP) and your boss forwarded to you presumably to make sure you knew it was available.
      Say thanks and move on – I don’t think it’s worth bringing up again.

    3. JanetM*

      I tend to agree with edj3. If your manager is normally a reasonable, considerate person, then I think he is trying to be helpful and make sure you know about all the options available to you. He didn’t do this out of the blue, but after you told him you were experiencing work-related stress.

      I am not a manager myself, but I have pointed a number of coworkers and even managers to our EAP (ours covers not just mental health but things like legal referrals and financial planning referrals). It’s kind of glossed over in orientation, and when someone is under stress, they can sometimes get super-focused and not think about alternatives.

    4. Jimbo*

      Thanks all for the perspective! I tend to get paranoid when dealing with my boss because we’ve had friction in the past. But it looks like this isn’t one of those situations.

      1. DDJ*

        It’s also a really common piece of advice for managers who have employees going through a difficult period, who don’t know what to do, but who want to do something so that the employee knows that they are valued and appreciated (and have support). “Make sure to send your employee the information on our great EAP! Not all employees understand the program, or they may just not be thinking about it because they have so many other things going on.”

  35. katamia*

    (Work-related) visa question, asking here because I’m hoping to not put myself on the visa people’s radar. For grad school in England, I’m not allowed to “engage in business.” I understand most of what this means, but I also write fiction. Some of it is done and almost ready to go. Does submitting fiction (and being paid for it if it gets accepted somewhere) count as “engaging in business” (since it’s technically self-employment, at least in the US), or does anyone know of a good other site not connected with anything official where I can ask this? I’ll hold off on submitting if it really does mean I can’t submit any fiction while I’m in grad school, but I really don’t want to.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      US citizen in the UK here – you may want to check in on the UK Yankee forum – they will know. You are allowed to work in school for x amount of hours per week though, right?

      Frankly, this govt wouldn’t know who was doing what, where even if they DID have tracking. I would be more concerned that the nature of publishing means that your name could be published and THAT would cause you to be flagged. Maybe.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks, I’ll check it out. I’m allowed to work I think 20 hours a week, but I already asked the school visa office and they made it very clear that I’m basically only supposed to be an employee, no self-employment or anything.

        And all the fiction, if it were accepted, would be published under a pen name, so unless someone did a weird and excessive amount of sleuthing I can’t imagine them tracing it back to me.

    2. lisalee*

      At least in the US, you can have profitable hobbies that do not constitute business, as long they meet certain qualifications (some of which are extremely subjective however). It looks like the English tax code also has a “hobby income” category. I did some brief googling and it seems that in the UK, you do not even need to declare income under $1000. Any chance your sales will stay below that?

      I also write fiction, and I know one person getting their PhD in the US who had to ask magazines to not pay them based on the type of visa they were on. They could still publish, just not be paid. But they were fairly successful and their (prospective) income definitely didn’t meet the “hobby income” qualifications because they were pursuing it in a business-like manner. So it is an option to publish without profit if you want to.

      If you’re writing something fairly unprofitable and only irregularly, I think you’d be okay. But I would see if there’s a different visa adviser (or maybe Student Legal Aid?) who you could talk to to know for sure.

      1. katamia*

        Thanks! This would be occasional short stories/poems and submitting novels to agents (which is unlikely to result in any payment before the program is over, since it’s just a one-year grad program). I can’t imagine making anywhere close to $1000 on short stories and poetry in a year, lol.

  36. Manders*

    Does anyone know of books or online communities that talk about how to take care of your mental health when you work full-time? A lot of what I’ve found so far seems to be aimed at giving advice to people who aren’t working or having much more flexible schedules than I can ask for right now. I’m looking for something more along the lines of how to keep your focus at work when you’re in a job that requires a lot of mental energy, how to know when it’s time to take a mental health day, how to manage your feelings of resentment at friends who don’t have to work because they get financial support from parents or spouses, etc.

    I do have access to therapy now (yay, new job with new insurance!) but I also have some bigger issues to triage right now. Plus, figuring out how much time I can take off work for appointments and what to do when I get emotional in therapy but have to go to work right after the appointment is another thing I’m having difficulty with.

    1. Queen of the File*

      Commenting here so I can hopefully benefit from responses. I feel like the ‘odd duck out’ with most of my friends, being one of the only ones with a full-time job, and I don’t feel like they understand exactly how draining it is even just to be away from home all day every day. I would also like some resources on how to manage this. Solidarity feels from over here.

      Some of the ‘how much time to take off for appointments’ and judging when you can take a mental health day will depend on your workplace. For me, we have a maximum number of hours allowed for medical appointments (4). If you need more than that in a day, you take it as sick time. We get enough sick leave that I do feel comfortable using a mental health day now and then when I’m at the point where I can only get out of bed in the morning if I promise myself some kind of prize (usually buying myself a fancy coffee or lunch).

      1. Manders*

        To be honest, I’ve been drifting away from a friend group where I was the odd duck out. It was taking a lot of energy not to snap at people like the woman who lived rent-free in her sister’s house and complained about the decor or the man who had taken tens of thousands of dollars from his girlfriend while lying to her about looking for work. There are a few people from that group I’d like to stay in contact with, though, so it would be nice if I could still hang out on occasion without feeling so tense every time money or work comes up.

        My workplace is very small and doesn’t have a lot of formal rules around this kind of thing, and I’ve just come from a company that nickle-and-dimed you down to the second with a time clock and fired someone who had health problems, so I feel like my idea of normal is seriously out of whack.

    2. Marillenbaum*

      My always-and-forever favorite post about this is Captain Awkward’s “How To Tighten Up Your Game at Work When You’re Depressed”. It really helped me when I was struggling at my first full-time job. I also tend to make sure I’m bumping up my self-care when I’m outside of work as well: I have an alarm that tells me to get off the computer and get ready for bed, I have enough frozen dinners to make sure I eat a meal even when I’m too tired to cook, and I firmly believe in the mantra of Heben and Tracy from the podcast Another Round: “Drink some water, take your meds, call your person”.

      1. Manders*

        Keeping frozen dinners is a smart idea. I have a bad habit of getting home, not wanting to eat what my husband made, and just snacking on random fridge items without thinking about whether I’m actually getting the nutrients I need.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      For me, I had to take control of my food/water intake and my exercise.
      I pretty much had my household on a schedule. Thursday was start the laundry day and so on. It can really feel like a hamster wheel.
      I also decided to cut unnecessary or labor intensive things out of my life.
      I streamlined where I could, for example I would make two days worth of lunches at a time. Except for Friday, of course.
      Sleep was super important to me when I was pushing hard at work. So going to bed on time was top priority.
      With jobs that require a lot of mental energy, going for a walk night after night can be helpful. You might even notice differences with even a short walk.
      I very seldom call in sick so my rule of thumb is a mental health day every 18-24 months. The heck with it all. I stay home and do nothing of any importance.
      It’s probably not a great solution but I felt proud of myself about my job. I was kind of scared for my friends who were not working for whatever reason. But honestly, I was so busy that I never saw that much of my friends where it could eat at me anyway.
      Can you schedule your therapy appointments for late in the day so you don’t have to go back to work?
      Can your therapist help you build a plan so that you CAN go to work and complete your work day?

    4. Admin of Sys*

      re: emotional after therapy – Would it be possible to schedule work that allows for more private space/time when you get back? My office has little one and two person conference rooms when folks need to focus, because we have a really open floor plan. If there’s something like that, you could schedule a half hour ‘focus time’ and get work done in a safer space w/ less concern about people interrupting you, while still being at work.

      1. Manders*

        I guess I could say I was going to a doctor’s appointment and then finish up my work at home after the appointment. My problem is that my therapy sessions are about the impending death of my mom, which is hard to talk about without crying. Afterwards my face is obviously red and swollen for hours and I’m sometimes sniffly for an hour or two, so I feel extra self-conscious being around other people. There’s no private place to work in my current space, I’m always in the same room with the boss/company owner.

        I’ve had a hard time finding therapists who have slots available at the end of the day or on weekends. I’ve always had a hard time finding therapists I click with, so holding out for the perfect therapist who clicks with me and also has desirable slots open doesn’t seem realistic right now.

        I’d like to talk more time off for mental health days, but I need to save that time up for visiting my mom.

        2. CrazyEngineerGirl*

          I am so sorry you are going through this. I am currently in counseling too, having lost my mother in June. It can be incredibly draining, both physically and emotionally, can’t it? My first thought is, have you talked to your therapist about your concerns? If she knows it’s a potential problem and what your concerns are she (1) may be able to fit you into later appointments as time goes on and (2) she may have insights and suggestions for you with regards to going back to work after an appointment. Therapists have usually had 100s of patients, most of whom probably work and had appointments such that they had to go back to work afterwards, so it’s likely something that has come up before.

          Also, a kind of random thing that I’ve sometimes used when I’ve been puffy and/or red from crying is one of those cooling face masks. I like the ones with the little gel beads. Putting something like that on my face for like 10-15 minutes (or until it’s no longer cool) cools it down which helps me with the redness and puffy look. Maybe you could take something like that in a cooler with cold packs to keep it nice and chilled?

    5. Teach*

      Therapy will help you keep triaging the other things, so try to prioritize that. Also, I’m not sure if this is universal, but my first few months of therapy were super emotional and exhausting. An end-of-work appointment was crucial. Now, a year later, it’s more routine and doesn’t consume my day. So your needs there could change.
      I’m rarely physically ill, so I feel fine taking a mental health break at the rate my high-performing colleagues call in – maybe once every two months, especially around times that are stressful.
      Are you familiar with HALTS? Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, Sick/Stressed all affect our ability to cope with mental health stuff, so that’s where I tend to focus. Healthy food I like, exercise, time with friends, good sleep, and schedule management are the ideal, which may not all be possible at once!

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      I found the MindTools website helpful for this – it has a really good section on stress management. I paid 75p for a one month trial and I think it’s a dollar in this US.

      1. Manders*

        I’ll give that a try! I tried an app called 7 Cups of Tea, but I found the interface confusing and when I connected with various people who were supposed to be doing the counseling they all told me they weren’t trained for such serious problems.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          This site isn’t so much a counselling/listening one but articles and resources.

    7. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      What to do when you get emotional in therapy is a great thing to discuss with your therapist. :)

      Also, I haven’t tried them, but there are apps out there – someone down further on this page recommended SAMapp for anxiety.

      For venting purposes, just to blerg everything out on a screen, there’s 750words dot com where you can just write every day and try to manage things that way? It is an amorphous award based thing where you get points for doing something every day – for some kinds of mental health issues I know that can be triggering.

  37. edj3*

    Update on direct reports who smell like smoke

    You might remember I asked how to handle my new team being made up of mostly smokers (I have reactive lung disorder), especially when I have 1:1 meetings with them.

    I took your collective advice and kept the conversation low key and more about my lung issues than about the way anyone smells, and asked for help. I told them (honestly) that I run to keep my lungs healthier, and that this summer in particular has been rough in terms of horrible air quality. I didn’t suggest any solutions, just asked for their help.

    The whole team has been great about it. While no one has quit smoking, they have on their own moved their breaks to after our various meetings.

    So thank you all, esp those who smoke, for offering your advice and perspectives.

    4. paul*

      Good! Glad it worked. In my experience most smokers are oblivious about how they smell but mostly respect a request to not smoke right before meetings or similar.

  38. Teapot, Inc.*

    My company has an “overachiever banquet” once a year on a Friday night. It’s based on your yearly productivity, but most of the people invited hate it and don’t go. They’ve already worked hard all week, they want the weekend to themselves, and the banquet frankly is boring and kinda sucks (especially the food).

    But everyone in management is invited, regardless of how horrible their areas did each year. And since they love it (and apparently hate good food), the banquet attendance is like 25% overachievers and 75% management.

    Anyway, said management is tired of people making fun of the attendance, but they don’t want to stop inviting themselves. So this year, they’ve found the perfect solution. They’ve invited everyone, no matter how much of a screwup you are, and they’re only going to celebrate the three most bestest overachievers…who will be hand-picked by management.

    Did I mention management is now eligible to win? They totally are. (I don’t really have a point here or want any advice. It just amuses me.)

    2. Bryce*

      I can think of a few choice things to unofficially redub that event. “Wanquet” is the one I’m most proud of, at least that I’m comfortable posting.

      2. paul*

        I would give good money to know Teapot, Inc. snuck that into official communications about it (but don’t, you’d be in trouble.)

  39. Definitely NOT a T-Rex*

    Any advice on working on a team that’s socially/professionally exclusionary?

    Coworkers and boss seem to all be friends with each other. I like them all, but boss checks in with them daily and maybe checks in with me 1x a month (if that). It’s gotten so bad that boss didn’t realize I had gotten married until 8 months after the fact (everyone else knew). My coworkers’ offices are all next to mine, with one of theirs being directly across from my door (so, the easy opportunity to check in with me during their daily check-in is definitely there). Boss has told me in the past that I can be trusted to get my work done, but that doesn’t explain the frequent nonwork socializing that everyone else is included in.

    Coworkers have also repeatedly “forgotten” to assist me with a project that’s not possible for me to complete without them. But they assist each other on everything else they’re working on.

    Am feeling like I’m disrupting a “clique” and that the only way to be happy on this team is to be part of the “clique”. Am I being too sensitive? If not, how do I explain these concerns to my boss without invoking the image of being “too sensitive”?

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Do you want to be included in the non-work conversations? Or do you just feel like you’re missing out on work-related stuff. If it’s the former, and it’s not like they’re actively excluding you, you may need to be the one to go talk to them. I’m naturally more introverted, and I want to wait until people approach me, which I think reads to a lot of people as that I’m not interested in them. As much as I hate to do it, I usually have to make the first awkward effort to engage coworkers in conversation, and get the ball rolling from there.

      In regards to your relationship with your boss, I would have a conversation with your boss, but avoid discussing the clique or feeling left out. Personally, I’d talk with her to see if you could set up a regular meeting time to check in.

  40. D.W.*

    How do I have a conversation with my manager to provide feedback on management style? My manager is wonderful! She really sweet, gives me autonomy, supports me, but she drastically retards my workflow.

    She has self-identified as a “slow thinker”. Meaning that it takes her a while to process information, which is fine. That has some downfalls, but the major issue is that she’s not very assertive and is very much so a people pleaser, so much so that she takes on too many *high priority* tasks.

    I do preliminary work on a lot of our deliverables, but it requires her review before we approve the final product. I’ll meet my deadline to produce the first run and she’ll give herself a two – three-day turnaround, but then a week (or longer) passes before I hear anything. And yes, I follow-up way before then, but she is bogged down with other priority work. Alternatively, the situation is also reversed where my manager will start something or I’m awaiting key information from her to start / complete my work.

    We always meet the absolute deadline, but we miss these benchmark deadlines for product review in which we would have time to catch mistakes, redundancy, missing data, etc., and we’re doing it ALL at the eleventh hour, which always falls on me, and staff that I now have to bother and rush, and I’m always concerned that in the rush, details are overlooked even though I painstakingly go through the products multiple times.

    How can I have a constructive, productive conversation about how this affects my work and ultimately our output as a team?

  41. Lefty*

    Looking for advice from Federal Hiring Managers- what are your views on portfolios? Should they be done, ever? What should be included? Should I bring copies for each person on the interview panel?

    Background: I have been referred aka “listed” for a GS position (merit and general lists) for a stepped promotion and am hoping for an interview invitation. A few of my coworkers have suggested making a “brag book” to include copies of all of my SF50s, feedback from the public/partners, and writing samples. I think that a portfolio with these items would be useful, especially writing samples due to the heavy focus on that aspect of the job. I will not call it a “brag book” and thought I might have a few examples of my writing and my SF50s for each interviewer. Thanks for your insight!

    1. Halls of Montezuma*

      No, and for a high grade panel, we can’t even look at it. Your relevant SF-50 and supporting application materials should have been part of your USAJobs application. Great feedback can come from references and from specific accomplishments listed in your application materials. Bringing more won’t help and could even hurt if it makes you look like you don’t understand how the process works, plus asking interviewers to look at it would only take time away from your interview, which will probably hurt you compared to candidates who use the time to answer the questions thoughtfully and more thoroughly.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Seconding Montezuma here. I’m not a Hiring Manager, but I am a federal employee, and I’m pretty sure the reason federal interviewers can’t look at those supplementary materials is because–if they didn’t come in as part of your application package–they’re off-limits. Federal hiring managers have to be fair, above all. If you had brought in supplementary material, but other candidates didn’t, and you ended up getting the job, you would’ve gotten it through a hiring process that didn’t treat all the candidates equally. And fairness in hiring is very important. I hope that if you do get an interview, it goes well and that you knock it out of the park. Keep us posted!

  42. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    Theoretical question: where would an ex-con find work after prison if they were convicted of murder? What kind of work would be available to them? I’ve worked at places where they hired ex-cons as long as they weren’t convicted of a violent felony, but what about those who were?

    1. katamia*

      I’ve heard of some nonprofits that run restaurants or bakeries staffed by ex-cons to help give them some positive work experience after they get out of prison. Actually, the restaurant industry in general seems relatively friendly to people needing second chances.

    2. Manders*

      I’ve heard that restaurant kitchens take a high number of ex-cons. There may be some other industries where hard work and low pay mean hiring managers are more interested in keeping a reliable worker than knowing details about their past.

      Unfortunately, it can be very hard to get a job as an ex-con, and a lot do end up committing new crimes for money.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Construction. Residential, commercial, heavy industrial, it doesn’t matter. We only had one client who requested background checks but that was for supt. and up.

      BTW, we have at least one ex-con (murder) working for us now.

    4. Lefty*

      Construction, food services, janitorial services for some spaces, maritime work (especially fishing vessels, entry deck work, shore maintenance). Also, dedicated programs exist in many states to get a start that can lead to more(if there is a parole officer involved, they sometimes have resources).

    5. CAA*

      Someone I know worked at a printing shop while on probation after release and later ended up owning a small business with her husband.

      Another person, whose crime was financial rather than violent, works in outside sales for a technology consolidator.

    6. Oryx*

      Depending on where you live, there are hopefully local resources available. I know where I am, there are organizations where their mission is to help formally incarcerated individuals find jobs and in particular we have a restaurant that hires only ex-cons. Your state’s (assuming you are in the US) corrections department should have a reentry program with information possibly available online and if there is a library at the facility they should hopefully also have a reentry section in house with information related to getting a job after being released.

      The PrisonTalk forum online might also have some ideas, they have regional forums that might be beneficial for specific locations that are open to hiring.

    8. anon for this*

      I read an article about a gym started by and completely staffed by ex-cons. I’ll link in a separate comment.

    9. LawPancake*

      A lot of restaurants either hire felons or don’t ask about priors. My wife is a chef and a good half of the folks in her kitchen have pretty long records. I know at least two there have some kind of homicide/killed a guy charge.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Anything that is demanding physical labor. Nurseries, roofing companies, and from what I am hearing nursing homes. Well maybe not murderers in nursing homes but with burning through help like they do sometimes they turn a blind eye.

      On the good side of things, I see many contractors who are willing to hire ex-cons. The guy has to work, no doubt about that, but the business owner is definitely willing to hire. There is no program here so this is remarkable in that businesses are just doing it on their own.

    11. Zip Zap*

      I’ve lived an interesting life; I’ve known a few people who served sentences for homicide. One worked in a restaurant and two were on disability. In at least one of the disability cases, it had to do with the terms of the sentencing and/or release. Something about a mental health condition being a factor in the crime.

  43. This is me*

    I had a 1st phone interview for a position on July 10th.
    I had a phone interview with the hiring manager on July 14th.
    I met with the hiring manager and the COO on July 18th.
    On the night of the 20th, the hiring manager emailed asking for references and a work sample.
    I responded back on 21st with all needed materials.

    It is now the 28th and my references have not been called yet. And I am trying not to freak out. I walked out of the interview on the 18th confident, but ready to put the job to bed and not obsess. (as advised by AAM) But then , they ask for references, so it riled me up again! This is a great opportunity and would utilize my skill set fantastically. But now I am struggling to find my job search “its not yours till the offer it” zen.

    Maybe someone is on vacation.

    1. Murphy*

      My assumption would be that someone is on vacation, or something else took precedence for the moment. But it’s easier for me to sya because I’m not you! I’d be anxious too.

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Hmmmm. It’s been a week since they emailed you asking for your references and work sample. That’s not a long time in JobSeek (although, I know it seems like an eternity). So I wouldn’t freak out yet. Since it’s summer, I’d say the odds are good that someone is probably on vacation. Give it another week or so. If you haven’t heard anything by then, you may want to contact the person that emailed you and just ask if everything was ok with the references and work sample you provided. Best wishes.

  44. Dotty*

    Ok – pretty serious one for a Friday but here goes…

    My friend manages a large team where one person was recently fired without her prior knowledge as it was discovered by IT that the team member had done something illegal from his work computer. Instant dismissal appropriate of course…but the IT guy didn’t take it to his manager or HR but to the company VP he’s friends with – together they’ve covered it up (presumably because it would expose the security issues in the IT set up that someone could do this? to clarify, IT found it by chance when fixing something else) which most likely would lead to the IT guy being fired.

    The VP has effectively made up a cover story for the firing, it’s actually a pretty good one but it still depends on the fired employee keeping quiet. But they’ve kept this from the CEO. Maybe he thinks he’s giving the CEO plausible deniability should this come out, but the potential ramifications of this security breach are huge (lost clients for sure, maybe worse) so I feel the CEO should know and be able to choose how this is dealt with! I guess she could try to convince the VP to take this to the CEO (it’s only been a few weeks so mayyybe he could say he was investigating before escalating it hence this initial delay) so that the CEO can decide how to rectify the situation right?

    What do you guys think? Should my friend a) stay quiet, b) go to the VP and try to convince him to come clean to the CEO, c) go to the CEO, or d) something else I’ve not thought of?

    Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      Ouch. I definitely think the CEO needs to be told about this. I highly doubt the VP can actually be convinced to tell the CEO, but I’m worried about possible repercussions for your friend if she goes straight to the CEO. I don’t know enough about whistleblower hotlines to recommend a particular one, but maybe it might be good for your friend to talk to one (or maybe even to a lawyer).

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      How did your friend find out the details? It sounds like they did inform the manager, since that is your friend. Or did the fired person talk to her manager after the firing?

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        This question. Because how your friend found out this information is extremely important I think. Is she 100% sure that she learned the 100% truth and is she 100% confident the CEO doesn’t actually know? If she was told directly, why her? If she learned it some other way, who’s to say the CEO hasn’t/won’t find out the same way?

      2. Dotty*

        She found out because it was her team member that was fired – its extremely odd that a manager would have one of their team fired by a senior manager without her knowing of any issues. She was told by the VP only because it’s one of her team members and she wouldn’t settle for the cover story

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Your friend could go back to the IT guy and say, “You are asking me to risk my job here by covering for you. I am not sure I can do that. HOWEVER, I can say that you did find the problem and you took immediate steps. I feel very comfortable saying that. Perhaps you will not get fired if the CEO understands this part. I think you and the VP should go to the CEO together. Organize what you will say:
      1) Here is what happened.
      2)Here is what has been done so far.
      3) Here is how we can prevent this in the future. (May overlap with #2.)

      OTH, it could be that the CEO does not want to hear it. It could be that the CEO expects the VP to handle all tech stuff.

      And I would be remiss if I did not say, if your friend decides to go to the CEO herself, she probably should have some ideas of where she will go for her next job. These things can get worse before they get better. And if she works in a company with a bunch of little secrets that is only going to make things worse.

    4. Reba*

      I think Friend could/should go to the VP first and explain why they think the VP should come clean–depending on what they know about the VP and how they are likely to react. But I think Friend should also be prepared to go higher up herself, and can decide whether it makes sense to advise VP of that (“I’m not comfortable keeping this from CEO; I’m going to tell her next week”) or to just go for it. To me the first seems like the best course, since it gives the VP a little time to act on her own and she won’t be blindsided–but that time to act could also mean she harms Friend in some way. What a sticky situation.

      1. Dotty*

        Thank you everyone, it’s certainly a sticky situation! I’ll send her the link to these responses, the suggested wording of what’s happened, how it’s been resolved sounds good

  45. Ruth (UK)*

    I decided to be open with my boss about the fact I’m job searching. I’ve been at my job for a little over three years, it was my first admin job following a string of retail/fast food jobs, but it is a small company and no potential to move into another position, either upwards or otherwise. Luckily my boss seemed to take it well. The fact there is no room for movement or really any further training etc in my company helps in this case, because he understands why I don’t necessarily want to do this job forever (I’m in my late 20s so I’d have to be prepared to do this very basic repetitive job very long term or find a new job at some point) and since no opportunities exist anyway, its not like I’ll be passed up for anything. I feel less stressed not having to worry that someone might contact him for a reference or something before I got a chance to talk to him, and wont need to make up excuses to attend interviews if i get any etc (in three years I’ve had two sick days in total so it would look odd if I suddenly started calling in..). Anyway, I also have greater access rights on the system than a lot of my colleagues so i think he was pleased to know I might be leaving so he can sort out getting someone else the access. I know this post is super rambly and not that well set out. It’s partly that I’m writing it on my phone which gives a small viewing screen and makes it tricky to go back and edit anything…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Some bosses understand that the positions under them are a stepping stone. They understand that one part of their jobs will be to hire new people every few years. Your boss is smart and has handled this well.
      Good luck on your search.

  46. a casual commenter*

    Hey, Alison, would it be possible if you could indicate in an edit to the letter that the LW has replied? Or perhaps move it up to the top of the thread? In long comment threads, it can be really hard to know if there’s been a reply, especially if I just comment early and see the post later but don’t check the comments to know there’s an update. I understand if this is a no, too much work for you, but I thought I’d throw it out. :)

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This gets suggested a lot, but I’m already at my limit (if not past it) work-wise. I’m also hesitant to commit to doing it when I know I won’t be able to do it reliably (since then people will be assuming they’ll hear about it if there’s an OP reply and that won’t always be the case). So unfortunately no, although I agree that a way to easily see that info would be great.

    2. Dotty*

      I tend to do a quick text search every now and again for “OP” or “Letter Writer” which usually works well enough, assuming the OP uses one of these

  47. Disagrees with Partner*

    Partner and I are disagreeing on this and I’m curious to know what others think.
    Sending flowers (or edible arrangement etc.) to one’s significant other at work, OK or not?
    I think it’s fine as long as it’s not over the top or often. My parents sent me valentines flowers at work one year that was kinda awkward since I was teaching high school and ended up explaining to every single student that no they were from my parents not my SO.
    Partner thinks that any thing like that should be kept our of the workplace completely.
    Is this just a case of know your workplace?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it’s a case of “know your workplace.” At all my jobs, it would be completely fine to receive the occasional bouquet, and I’ve worked at a range of nonprofit, academic, and corporate environments.

    2. JanetM*

      One of my coworkers receives flowers three times a year, I think (Valentine’s Day, her birthday, and their anniversary). No one ever says anything more than, “Oh, those are so pretty!”

      For reference, higher ed, IT department.

      1. Lemon Zinger*

        Interesting! I work in higher ed administration and this would not look good in my office. It has never happened AFAIK.

    3. Emi.*

      I personally would not risk it unless I had seen someone else do it without it being weird. (Also, edible arrangements would be a pain to deal with at work–wouldn’t you have to make space in the fridge?) It would almost certainly be weird at my workplace, but that might just be because it would go like this:
      “Hi, flowers for Disagrees With Partner.”
      “This is a secure facility. Have you been pre-approved for access? Who’s your escort? Sorry, you can’t come in.”

      1. Arielle*

        I got an edible arrangement this year for Valentine’s Day and I put it out for my team to eat. It was gone by the end of the day! Win-win, I felt loved and I also didn’t have to carry the sticky thing home.

    4. Rincat*

      Know your workplace. I don’t think it has to be kept out EVER, but it also shouldn’t be over the top. A couple times a year seems fine. A couple times a month seems strange.

    5. Murphy*

      I think it’s OK! As others have said as long as it’s not over the top, like not all the time or anything overly huge.

    6. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I agree that the occasional flowers would be totally fine. Except in the case of a workplace such as mine (food processing), they’d never make it out of the front office, so the office admin would probably have to tell people all day that they weren’t for her.

    7. paul*

      It happens here but not too often. It never causes issues.
      Avoid if you have a secure or sterile workplace though.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        PS non-profit, people would just think it was nice but I would prefer that they checked with me that I was okay with it.

      2. Kathenus*

        Agree. Know both your workplace and the preferences of the recipient before sending something to them at work.

    9. SC*

      I think it’s fine in most workplaces. My biggest concern would probably be allergies or aversion to fragrances if the recipient did not have his or her own office. My parents sent an arrangement containing lilies to my office once, and I couldn’t handle the smell in my own small office. I carried them home, where the smell had a chance to diffuse, so it wasn’t a big deal.

    10. AllergyAlert*

      Funny story…

      My team lead’s birthday was yesterday and his wife dropped by for lunch and gave him a balloon bouquet.

      I am highly allergic–as in I have gone into anaphylactic shock in the past and have an epi pen–to latex. My manager is aware of this and so is the department head and HR, but seeing the balloons I realized that when team lead was promoted three months ago I never informed him.

      Nothing terrible happened, but I told him immediately and he took them out of the building.

    11. Chaordic One*

      I don’t see anything wrong with it.

      I should add that at back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd. we had an occasion where a spouse sent her husband a stripper at work. The spouse seemed to think that it was hilarious, but it really was awkward and definitely inappropriate.

    12. Zip Zap*

      I think it’s “know your workplace” plus common courtesy. If it happened a lot or was over the top without an obvious reason, it could make other people feel bad. Think of the people who don’t have anyone to send them flowers at work. Most would be fine with it if it only happened on normal occasions, but you don’t want to push people’s buttons.

  48. CJ*

    I recently finished graduate school and began job searching in May. After talking with my school job/internship adviser I realized I really needed to just get my foot in the door in my desired field so I applied to some part time jobs as well as full time. I am in the (long) hiring process for a part time job. Nothing is official yet, I am still going through the background check.
    My question is: I am waiting to hear back from a couple of full time jobs that I had applied for. What is the protocol on leaving if I am offered a full time job?

    The part time job is very low pay (over 50% less than what I made hourly in my FT job before grad school) and a long commute. My family is saying leave PT job but just expect no reference if I don’t stay long.

  49. BusyBee*

    I just got a small raise, but feel a bit hard done by because I was hoping to be promoted. My boss said it could happen within the next year, but… Feels like I’ve done so much compared to others and still only AT average market rate. :-(
    Just needed to vent a bit… Any promotion success stories anyone wants to share? :-)

    1. Dotty*

      I was getting to the point where I’d been waiting for a promotion for what felt like a really long time and was so close to leaving then I got surprised with a promotion and a much better raise than I’d anticipated. But I’d also had a conversation with my manager some time before and asked what it would take to move up to the next level and then actively worked on developing myself in those areas

  50. EllaGrace*

    Has anyone had any experience moving from the US to Europe on an EEA Family Permit? I just got a call-back for a job in London (!), which is contingent on being able to get a permit with my Austrian partner.

    1. BusyBee*

      If your partner is resident (in the legal sense) in the UK then you should be able to join him without issues as long as his salary is above a certain amount (I think it’s £18,600).

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I did it and am currently on the EEA2 Residence Card and about 18 months out from Permanent Residency. It is, hands down, the easiest of all permits to use to get into the UK HOWEVER be forewarned that there is a veritable sh*tstorm right now around rights/access/future due to Brexit.

      Basic facts:
      If you are US based you need to show:

      1) proof of your partner being EU (passport I think),
      2) your relationship (marriage certificate or papers proving 2 years of relationship “akin to marriage” – like leases and stuff although I used medical insurance cards!)
      3) proof of who you are (US passport)

      No need to show additional photos, prove income levels (as suggested above – thats for non-EU partners), proof of residency, etc. There is a slight catch in that your EU partner has to, within 90 days, prove that they are “exercising treaty rights” in that they have a job, are searching for employment, etc. We came through in 2014 when it was more relaxed, so they may now be checking into this, especially now.

      So, you get your information bundled up and pack it off to the NYC consulate (oh, with some passport photos) – there was a biometric step in there too (you go to a local center) and your passport will come back about 2 weeks later with the FP inside. That will give you 6 months from issuance to enter the UK and start “exercising treaty rights”. At some point you need to apply for the EEA2 Residence Card where you will need to show your EU partner is doing such (we used employment contract) and that WILL take up to six months to process, although you can request your passport back during that time. That gives you 5 years as long as your partner is exercising treaty rights, then its one year of Indefinite Leave to Remain and then Citizenship.

      Granted its been a few years since Ive done this so best check the UK Gov site and check out UK Yankee forum as well.

      Now for some major caveats and personal griping:

      London can be a dream destination but I would actively urge you to really look at the opportunity with eyes wide open. I cannot tell you how much ambient stress this whole Brexit mess has put on me personally and the wider citizenry. I am now waiting for some two-bit disaster of a government to inform me of what my rights may be to stay, or not, while I pay a ton in taxes. Salaries are low and stagnant, infrastructure is a mess, and the £ is on a roller coaster with the $ since last year and lost 20% in value overnight, which was real fun. We move as much money out of the country into $ and $ investments as we can right now.

      I haven’t personally been on the receiving end of any xenophobia, but its hard to not feel unwelcomed now, that the tone of the city has changed. We are getting Plan B and Plan C together now and while we initially intended to stay here at least until 2020, I am not going down with the ship if it comes to hard Brexit. Any other time I would have said “Sure! the infrastructure is a mess, salaries are low, and housing is expensive, but itll be a great adventure!” but now all bets are off. Only you can know if this is best for your career/situation/outlook – just have contingencies in place!

      Now, if you are using EEA FP to move to any other country, other than Austria, its the same process. It is only when you are moving to the partner’s home country that you come under different rules.

      Good luck!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, Brexit effectively killed my dream of moving there unless I end up married to some rich Brit, which isn’t going to happen anytime soon. On my own, it’s now impossible. :(

        1. Typhon Worker Bee*

          Wanna buy a UK passport? Mine’s not much use to me anymore. Effin’ Brexit :(

          (just kidding – I like having a second passport as backup. But I use my Canadian passport as my primary document all the time now, even when flying into the UK and other EU countries. Mostly ‘cos I feel like I need to blurt out “I voted Remain!” every time a non-British EU citizen finds out I’m British. I even managed to get “Cath would like everyone to know that she voted Remain, so Brexit is not her fault” into the official minutes of the international research consortium I’m in)

        2. Foreign Octopus*

          Even if you do marry a rich Brit, I still would advise against moving there. Britain has changed so much over the last two years. The build up to, and then the Yes result, Brexit really tore away the veneer of respectability that we had and highlighted how small minded we have become.

          I recommend Spain. It’s warm, beautiful, lovely people, beautiful language, and so much cheaper.

  51. Stella*

    The head of my department is very well-known in our little corner of the world. He has just announced that he will be leaving his post to head up a new department at a related organization. We are not direct competitors, but are in the same sector.
    As the department head here, he has come to expect quite a bit from his office administrative staff; the lines between personal and business can get a little blurry for him. We are already awkwardly assisting him with small tasks which are clearly related to his new position (think downloading, printing, and organizing a dozen color photographs), but we are all dreading how the transition will go over the next few months, and wondering how much he will continue to ask of us as it wears on, and even after he leaves.
    Any advice for how to get through this period, and even how we might draw a line if any of these requests become unreasonable? I’m thinking about Alison’s advice to say that performing these tasks will delay the completion of others, and ask which is the bigger priority, but in some ways I’m more concerned about managing my own frustration with his expectations that we drop everything because his new job has a sudden deadline, or because he really needs to make an appointment for a haircut right his minute. I realize that as our boss he can do that, but what is our responsibility as he transitions out of that role? He’s hoping to stay on here in some advisory capacity, so the worry is that he will never really leave.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hope I am understanding this correctly. You will get a new boss, right? So technically you guys no longer work for this man. If this is the case, I would just ask the new boss how he wants you all to handle any requests that come up.

  52. Fishsticks*

    Hello!
    I am a just graduated and recently employed in a job I really enjoy! However, I’m looking for tips to tell my boss I’ve run out of stuff to do. My company consists of me and my boss and he’s been traveling a lot since I started and it’s been extremely busy on his end, so I’m not sure how to approach it. It’s a very independent/self-driven position I’m in so I’m concerned that if I ask for more work, he will think I’m not getting everything else done (ex. accounting and other office stuff that my boss doesn’t deal with). This past week I’ve been bored out of my mind and finally have stuff to do today, but am dreading next week when I’m out of stuff to do again…
    Thanks so much!!!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Could you ask him if there are there any long-term projects that you could take on? So when your day-to-day tasks have been completed, you can fill in your other time by chipping away at this long-term project?

    2. DDJ*

      I would make it pretty breezy. “Hi Boss! I wanted to let you know that I’m feeling really comfortable in what I’ve taken on so far. Thanks for recommending x method/providing the training/pointing me in the right direction. I’m finding that as I’m developing my skills and getting familiar with my regular tasks, they’re not taking as much time. I’m able to get everything finished on time/before deadlines. Are there any projects that I can help with, or tasks you might have for me to take on?”

      If you have a good boss (and since you say you really enjoy your job, I’m guessing you have a good boss who’s good to work for), they probably want to make sure you’re not overwhelmed. They may have had experiences with previous employees who took a little longer to learn tasks, or maybe with people who made themselves look busy without doing a whole lot (in which case, the boss might not realize that the workload is actually low). I’ve seen it happen – a coworker was promoted into a position after a departure, and after about a week, she realized that she could get everything done in a couple hours a day, and couldn’t figure out what the heck the previous person had spent all their time doing. So she took on additional tasks and responsibilities.

      If you let your boss know that you have extra time and would like to take on more things, particularly because he seems super busy, he’ll probably be thrilled. Just make it clear that everything is getting done and deadlines are all being met, and you still have capacity to take on extra work.

    3. Zip Zap*

      I would keep it short and sweet. “Let me know if need help with anything else.”

      If it seems appropriate for your workplace, you could send him a weekly report. A bulleted list summarizing what you did that week. Optional: use words in that list as links to examples of your work. That way, the boss has the option of either skimming or looking for more detail. If you go that route, you could follow the list with a line mentioning that you’re available to help with other projects if needed.

      Another option: Decide what you’d like to help with if you were given more work, then offer to help with that. “I noticed the website hasn’t been updated recently. Would you like me to update it?” Kind of a win win – it makes it easy for a busy boss and you get to choose which direction to go in.

  53. stitchinthyme*

    This situation happened years ago (in 2008), so it’s not highly relevant to me now, but I’m curious if it’s a common practice.

    I was doing a passive job search (posting my resume to job sites and taking interviews when contacted, but not actively applying for anything outright), and was contacted by a recruiter for a job at a very small company (~15-20 people). I did the interview and got a job offer…but the recruiter said it was contingent on my signing a contract saying I’d agree to stay at least a year or else pay back the fee the company owner paid the recruiter for finding me, pro-rated for however long I did stay (so I’d pay half if I only stayed 6 months).

    As I was told that the full amount was somewhere around $20K, I turned down the offer. I’d signed similar agreements for relocation expenses before, but at least with those I was getting something out of the deal — a move to a different state. And I certainly wasn’t planning to leave in less than a year, but I wanted the option if the job didn’t work out for me.

    So what I’m wondering is, is this sort of thing — asking the candidate to foot the bill for their recruitment if they don’t stay at least a set amount of time — at all common? I’ve never had it happen before or since, or heard of it happening to anyone else.

    (This isn’t relevant to the rest of the story, but there is more to it for those who may be wondering: A couple of months later I got a call back from the same recruiter, who told me that the company owner was still really interested in hiring me and had agreed to take the recruiter-repayment thing off the table. Because things at my current job had gotten worse — many layoffs had happened, and all the remaining people I liked working with were jumping ship left and right — I ended up taking the job. I was there nearly five years.)

    1. Manders*

      Nope, that’s definitely not common. I’ve heard of similar agreements for relocation expenses, so maybe that’s how the company owner ended up with the idea that this was a normal thing to ask for. $20k in recruitment costs also seems very high to me.

      Out of curiosity, how was the job once you took it? Was this just one weird quirk, or was it a red flag you should have paid attention to?

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Red flag. I mean, I did stay for nearly five years even though there are a lot of good tech jobs I’d qualify for in my area, so obviously it wasn’t pure hell. But I only got one raise in those five years; when I looked in the employee handbook to see what the official company policy on performance reviews was, it was basically “Whenever the boss wants to do them”. And the boss did things like yelling at a guy for calling sick when he had been in the hospital, and trying to convince a coworker who needed his gallbladder removed not to do it (because of the extra expense on the company-subsidized medical insurance).

        The main reason I stayed was job security: my last two companies were, shall we say, highly unstable, with constant layoffs and uncertainty. At this place, it’s highly likely that I could have stayed there for 20 years as long as the owner was still around — they never had a layoff, and the only firing anyone could remember was for good cause (no-show, no call). For that reason, I didn’t burn bridges when I left — if I called Boss tomorrow and asked to come back, he’d rehire me if he had work for me to do. But I hope I never have to resort to that, because I really did dread going in there every day.

        However, I’m now at a place that has the best of both worlds: small company (though bigger than that one), no layoffs, raises every year, and other little things that show they value and appreciate their employees (like free food). Been there four years now.

    2. Channel Z*

      I have never of this before either, only with regards to relocation expenses or educational training.

    3. Rincat*

      I haven’t worked much with recruiters but that sounds really odd. I would think recruiter fees should be lumped in with “cost of doing business.”

    4. blackcat*

      I heard of at least one headhunting firm that would do a partial refund to the business if someone they recruited left early, but that’s a pretty different thing.

      1. mreasy*

        I believe that is relatively common, but the firm takes the hit – further motivating them to find someone who will really work in the role.

    5. Chaordic One*

      I’ve heard of this and it is definitely a red flag. I think you did the right thing.

      My understanding of such things is that usually if a recruit doesn’t work out, then the recruiter takes the hit and has to refund a portion of the fee paid that was paid to him or her. It appears to be an incentive to make the recruiter take the process seriously and really make an effort to locate the best candidates, as well as to work with good solid employers.

    6. Zip Zap*

      Sketchy. At best, it’s naive and misguided. At worst, it’s a scam. Hypothetically, they could be pushing people out and then billing them. That might sound paranoid, but with all the scams that are out there, I think it pays to be skeptical. You did the right thing.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Since I did end up taking the job (and believe me, I read everything I had to sign when I was filling out the hiring paperwork *very* carefully!) and got to know the owner reasonably well over nearly 5 years there, I can say with a decent amount of certainty that he didn’t intend it as a scam. He was just notoriously cheap. He hated it when anyone called in sick (even when they were actually in the hospital!), gave me only one raise the whole time I was there, “promoted” a couple of people and gave them more responsibility without a pay increase to go with it, tried to talk a coworker out of gallbladder surgery because of how much it would cost the company’s medical insurance, and tried to get another coworker to put together a company documentation server on his own time (because it couldn’t be billed and he didn’t want to pay anyone to do it, though he did recognized that it would be a valuable thing to have).

        My favorite was when one of my coworkers moved and found that his new commute was absolutely horrible, so he asked for a small schedule change that would have made the difference between it taking a half-hour to get in, vs. an hour to an hour and a half or more — he wanted to come in a little earlier or later while still working the full day and still being there for the “core” business hours. (We were a software business, so it wasn’t like we needed to do time-sensitive shifts or anything.) The boss said no, and suggested that he move back to this area. This guy was in the cube next to me, and I knew — and so did the owner — that he had moved in order to finally be with his formerly long-distance girlfriend (now his wife). So I heard this exchange, came out of my cube, and said, “Wait a second. You expect him to leave the love of his life…for THIS place??” The look on his face was priceless, but he didn’t back down, and that coworker found a new job and left a few weeks later.

        Those are just a few examples. And oh, the guilt trip I got when I told him I was leaving!

  54. EllaGrace*

    What remote collaboration tools do people use? My company is 100% remote, but resistant to using Slack, etc. Any ideas to make that kind of thing more appealing? We’re stuck with just Skype and email right now.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      We’re using mattermost, tied to our git instance. Are you looking for rt communication channels or shared documents/work tools?

  55. It's almost lunch wahoo!*

    I’m interviewing for a job I’m super excited about next week! (and the manager even asked me to apply–I had been a finalist for a different position there a few years ago) I am excited! I don’t want to jump the gun, thinking about possible schedules and things like that, but I do have two scheduling bumps, which I’m not sure when to bring up. One is major, the other is minor. The major: I’m teaching a class (I have a PhD) at the local university on Tues/Thurs mornings this fall. It’s only the one class for the one semester. The minor: I have a vacation planned for a week in October. I know the vacation is NBD, and that it’s usually pretty straightforward to get an early vacation approved. But what about the teaching? Do I wait until there’s an offer (if there is an offer!!), or do I let them know earlier in the process, assuming it seems like it’s going well. Again, I don’t want to count chickens before they’re hatched, but I also want to be prepared. Any advice appreciated! Thanks

    1. Product person*

      Wait for the offer. This is when you have the most negotiation power (they know they want you and will be more willing to discuss an accommodation).

      The answer changes if you won’t take the job at all unless they can accommodate your teaching. This is because they’d have invested time and energy interviewing you, and nobody likes to be surprised with unusual requests like this one at the eleventh hour. Good luck!

    2. Miss Anne Thrope*

      Can you back out of the class? The university will just hire an adjunct to teach it

  56. NW Mossy*

    Anyone had success coaching/being coached on developing critical thinking and judgment? I’ve got a direct on my new team (I’ve been managing them about three months) who really needs to improve in this area and would like to offer her more guidance in the hope that she’ll be able to turn the corner.

    She handles routine work reasonably well, but anything non-routine throws her for a loop and her error/rework rate spikes. This isn’t a role where it’s reasonable to avoid giving her non-routine work is feasible – non-routine work is the core function of the team, and a routine task becoming non-routine based on new information is a common occurrence.

    I’ve talked with her about strategies to use to help her stop and think, like writing out a plan of action before she starts and vetting it with a more senior peer first. She’s been doing that and it helps a little, but she’s still making errors that I wouldn’t expect someone with 4 years in here and decades of experience prior to make. Realistically I know that firing her is the most likely outcome, but I’d love to hear about what’s worked for others in case there’s something I can offer her that I haven’t thought of yet.

    1. katamia*

      You’ve probably tried this already, but checklists are what I would suggest–over time they should slowly become automatic, and they can make non-routine work feel more routine for people who need that kind of structure.

      Also, have you asked her what other managers/supervisors have done in the past that’s been helpful for her?

    2. Snark*

      “Anyone had success coaching/being coached on developing critical thinking and judgment? I’ve got a direct on my new team (I’ve been managing them about three months) who really needs to improve in this area and would like to offer her more guidance in the hope that she’ll be able to turn the corner.”

      Honestly? This is a really, really hard thing to teach, and a hard thing to learn. I’d love to tell you there’s a great way to instill this in someone who’s bad at it, but it’s fundamentally a function of self-awareness and introspection. Even checklists and work plans might not be enough, if non-routine work is really the core of your group’s functions and she can’t rely on predictability.

      I’ve witnessed and dealt with this too, and in every instance I can think of, the manager (whether that was me or someone else) eventually ended up having to either fire the person or put them in a new role where their work was largely routine and offered no surprises.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah. This is not something you can usually teach in the amount of time you have available to salvage the situation (if ever). You can try really intense coaching for a few weeks on the chance that it’ll pay off, but I’d go into it prepared for the likelihood that she’s the wrong fit for the job.

      2. katamia*

        I agree even though I already commented with suggestions. Sometimes you can find solutions to improve with certain types of non-routine work, but it’s a little surprising (and also a little sad) to me that she’s stayed so long in this field/job that doesn’t seem to be a good fit for her.

        1. Snark*

          This is why I’d actually advise NW Mossy to consider whether the discussion needs to be how to help this employee turn the corner, or whether it needs to be about a transition plan. After four years reworking their stuff, this employee has to know on some level that she’s not a good fit for the position, and that’s got to be incredibly dispiriting. Working with her to find a better role, hopefully within the same org, might be a relief to her.

          1. NW Mossy*

            She kind of…gets it but doesn’t, you know? She’s attributed her struggles to this point to significant challenges in her personal life, which I’m sure are a factor but probably not the major one and not really something that the business can or should wait around on for her to get straightened out. You’re also right to note that it does burden my other team members to carry her water in so many ways, whether it’s spending more time checking/vetting her stuff or picking up things she’s not capable of executing well.

            Unfortunately, I’m basically certain that I’m not going to be able to find another role for her that offers the kind of work she’s suited for because those kinds of roles in our business line are under the cost-cutting do-we-need-this microscope right now. I’d have more options if she were in my site (the home office) because I could potentially reach over to another line that’s based here, but the office she works from doesn’t support those other lines.

            It’s a crummy situation all around, and it’s not really been a service to her to let her limp along all this time. It’s unfortunate because if the prior manager had let her go back when, we would have been able to replace her; now, we’re in hiring freeze mode and can’t replace people who leave. But if she can’t get on track basically immediately, the small amount of value she brings isn’t going to be enough to justify keeping her.

            1. Snark*

              It sucks. I mean, you know what has to be done, you’re saying it here, but it’s so much harder when nobody’s the butthead, isn’t it? When someone isn’t, like, flagrantly negligent or incompetent, and is a good and decent person you want the best for on a personal level, but they’re just….not good at their job.

              1. NW Mossy*

                You’ve pretty much nailed it. It’s a hard message to communicate in a way that doesn’t feel judgmental of her as a person, given how much our jobs are entangled with our sense of identity. Much as we objectively understand that the equation isn’t “failing at job = failing at life,” it can sure feel that way sometimes, especially when it’s happening to us.

      3. Snark*

        Another thought: yes, writing out a plan of action and vetting it with a senior coworker could help in the short term. But if every novel assignment throws her for a loop and those are your core functions, that’s putting a lot of hand-holding work on your senior staff, and that might not be a fair thing to ask of them.

      4. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

        +1 I think that these are going to be really difficult things to teach, even given infinite time and resources. In some cases, people just aren’t cut out for a certain job, no matter how hard they try. It may be time to have a conversation with them about whether this job is really the right fit for them.

    3. Catalyst*

      I am having the same issue with one of my employees, so unfortunately I can offer no help, but I wish you luck!
      And will be watching this thread in hopes of also getting some advice. :)

    4. Kathenus*

      Late to comment, but in case you see this here’s one thought. I agree with others that this may end unsuccessfully, but in addition to looking for proactive options like checklists and the plans of action you mention, have you done an after-action style discussion about specific times when she handled a non-routine issue poorly? Breaking it down with her step by step – what her thought processes were, what she did and didn’t do, reasons for her actions; and then using it as an example to show her a different way she could have handled that same situation in a way that you need her to be able to learn to do? Sometimes reviewing a real-life situation as an example is easier for people to understand than a hypothetical situation that might occur in the future. Good luck.

  57. HJ*

    So, has anyone let their managers know that they were starting to look for a new position and regretted it? The main reason I’m considering leaving is because of grand-boss’ decision to cut payroll and leave us permanently understaffed among other things. I have a great relationship with my manager, but I don’t know how grand-boss will react. I don’t want to be forced out before I’m ready, but I also want to give my manager as much warning as possible. I’m hoping that it’ll help her convince grand-boss to get my replacement in before I leave rather than last minute when I give my formal notice. I’m working on manuals of my job responsibilities in the meantime, but I want to train my replacement before I leave too. I’m hoping being honest about job searching won’t come back to bite me.

    1. ms-dos efx*

      I’m in a similar situation myself — I work in a season-based field that more or less corresponds with the school year. On top of this, my boss recently announced that she will be going in for surgery within the next couple of months. I’ve been in the process of trying to return to a former employer, and although things seem likely to work out in my favor, I haven’t even interviewed yet. I spent some time looking up old AAM posts about talking to your boss about leaving before you actually give notice, and it seems like in the vast majority of situations, it’s really better not to. A lot of workplaces are not even able to post an opening until you’ve left or at least given formal notice, so although you have good intentions for wanting to be open with your boss, it may not even be possible for it to have the effect you want. On the other hand, it could result in you getting pushed out the door much sooner than you’d like — especially since that would save your grandboss even more on payroll.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If your manager is as great as you say, then he already knows you are looking.
      He probably cannot start looking for a replacement until it is certain you are leaving. So there is no benefit to telling him.
      I’d let it go.

  58. not the finance person...*

    need some reassurance here…CEO just requested I pull a check for someone who was left off payroll. I’m the Finance Associate & don’t usually issue the actual checks, just do all the paperwork. Guy in charge of Finance is not here today.
    I’ve included him on the email response, letting him know the check #, amount, & that I will copy the check before sending.
    Just…I don’t like this.
    Please tell me this is SOP and I should give her (CEO) the filled out check with no wories…
    thanks

      1. not the finance person...*

        I never handle the checks until after they’ve been signed; have no idea of how Finance tracks them, no access to the software so it’s all handwritten. I didn’t even have any payroll info for the person (how many hours) and had to figure out how to figure out union dues, FIT, SS, Med, other deductions, etc.
        As I said, just outside my usual duties.
        Feel free to delete my comment

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          No need to delete! It’s a worthwhile question. When you’re not used to doing something, it can be hard to figure out if it’s weird or not.

        2. LizB*

          It sounds like the request was normal and you did the right thing, but your company could have provided you with more support. Off-cycle paychecks happen, and your company shouldn’t rely on Main Finance Guy always being in the office when they do. It would be smart to have you (and maybe another person or two) trained on how to do that task ahead of time in case it comes up, and to have documentation in case all the trained people are gone.

          1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

            +1 on this one. We are a small company with only 1 person in charge of anything money related. I keep trying to lobby for someone else to be trained as back up because it is really bad practice to have knowledge of a procedure held entirely by one person.

      2. JanetM*

        If it were me, my uneasiness would be, “The person *said* they didn’t get their check, but they went to the CEO rather than to the payroll department, and what if the CEO didn’t make sure they really were left off payroll, and I don’t have any way to make sure the check wasn’t actually cut, and what if they’re lying and I cut the check and the company is out a month’s pay for him, and I get in trouble?”

        1. Academic Anon*

          Once main finance guy gets back it would be easy to verify that this person was paid the correct amount. If there was a mistake it seems like it would be easy to fix in the next paycheck.

    2. Belle*

      As a payroll person – I wouldn’t do it without calling the person or back-up who normally handles first:

      1. What if the person has garnishments or something you aren’t familiar with since it isn’t run through the system
      2. How does this impact reporting
      3. Do you have authorization to pull checks for control purposes – can be a big audit issue
      4. Is there money in the account to cover the check
      5. Did the money go out but to the wrong account or an old account
      6. Are the hours correct – what about overtime

      If I run it past the person who normally handles it and they say it is okay, I would then ask for an email to document – I have seen too many problems with not checking first and getting verification.

    3. Beancounter Eric*

      If you worked for me, I’d say you did fine.

      Did CEO request in writing/email – your note sounds like they did. If not, and much depends on your situation, ask them to please email the request…in my career, every CEO I’ve worked with has been very happy sending an email memorializing their order to issue a check.

      Looks like you documented everything – copy your boss and the CEO – and Monday, you and your boss need to discuss having a written procedure for this sort of thing in the future.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Was the communication with the CEO over email, and do you know the person who you’re pulling the check for? Because there’s a well known phising attack happening that involves spoofing a higher up and asking for checks to be pulled/charges made in non-standard ways, in an attempt to garner funds and access to accounts. This is especially dangerous if it’s bypassing normal payroll, because folks get access to and change direct deposit information, then have a check issued, resulting in the money going to the new location, owned by the folks who have faked the credentials.
      In summary, if the communication was through email and you’re concerned, I’d def. double-check everything including company policy and if you have a security team, check with them too.

  59. Fenchurch*

    Last week my work dropped a bombshell on us. My area has been going through a massive restructure, placing me with a known micro-manager (eek!). On top of that, this is my third manager in as many years at this place. I cannot get traction to get promoted here, despite being told repeatedly that I am a rockstar employee.

    All that is survivable. Our company has 2 major business hubs, one located in a major city (where I am currently working and just bought a house within walking distance of) and one located 15 miles away in the suburbs. They recently announced that my area is moving out there by the end of the year. All this within a week after telling us for the last 6 months that we would not be relocating to the other campus.

    I (as well as most of my coworkers) am incredibly upset about this. Many live in this area or have spouses that work downtown and carpool. I cannot wrap my head around this and have begun applying to outside positions.

    Has anyone been through something like this? Am I wrong to think that this is a sign that it is time for me to finally move on?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      I think it’s time to maybe start moving on. You say that all these changes are “survivable”, but that doesn’t mean you have to live with them. It sounds like a lot of things are adding up to make this place untenable – the location change alone would be enough cause to start looking.

    2. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      Yes, my job was moved 15 miles out to the suburbs with the promise we would move back to the city within 6 months. I certainly wouldn’t do it forever, but 6 months was bearable. Give it a try before you start looking – it might not be as bad as you think. Though you do have my sympathy.

    3. KellyK*

      It’s reasonable to be upset that they’re doing the very thing they spent six months telling you they wouldn’t be doing. That doesn’t necessarily mean they lied to you—plans do change. So, it’s not necessarily unfair or shady, but it does suck. And if the commute is more than you want to deal with, it’s totally reasonable to start job-hunting.

  60. 55 questions*

    Hi all, I had an interview on Tuesday with a large multinational in a regulated industry. The HR portion consisted of 55 behavioural interview questions in 45 minutes. They were typical questions, but all of them, all at once! Here are some examples I remember:
    Can you give an example of a time when you went above and beyond?
    What do you do when someone is bending the rules?
    How do you approach your career development?
    Tell me about a time when you had to work with someone who had a reputation of being difficult?
    Have you ever discovered that documentation was incorrect or inadequate?
    What do you think is the difference between responsibility and accountability?
    How do you deal with conflict on your team?
    Do you prefer to lead or follow?
    How do you contribute to your community?
    What was your biggest mistake?
    How do you handle working with someone who is not reliable?
    How have you influenced others to see your point of view?
    What do you do when someone within earshot is saying something negative about someone, and you believe it’s true?
    How do you show respect for people?
    What do you do if your team does not want to implement the changes that you have made?
    Can you tell me about a time when you had to work quickly to complete a tight deadline?
    How do you handle failure?

    And that is only 17 questions, there were 38 more like them! I was shaken by this, and not in the best frame of mind for the subsequent technical interview. Participating in AAM helped immensely as these topics are discussed frequently. Has anyone experienced having the Complete Book of HR Interview Questions thrown at them like this? Was this a big test to see how well I handle stress?

    1. LizB*

      Whoa. How did you possibly answer 55 behavioral questions in 45 minutes? That’s less than a minute per question! Sounds like a really bad interviewing technique, but usually these things aren’t some kind of stress test — they’re just the result of interviewers not knowing how to interview effectively.

    2. Cranberry*

      I work for a large multinational in a regulated industry and had the same kind of interview with very similar questions- was it the Gallup?
      When I interviewed they were very upfront that they would use my answers to determine whether my personality made me likely to be successful at the company. I was definitely overwhelmed and not really prepared for a lot of the questions, but they stressed that I was supposed to just answer off the top of my head- they weren’t expecting fully formed and well thought out responses. In my experience it’s intended to be somewhat holistic to get a better sense of how you work, and your personality in general. I think everyone I know at work thought they did horribly on this personality screen when they first interviewed. Try not to worry about it! (as hard as that is :) )

    3. Channel Z*

      My letter told me that it would be a structured behavioural interview, and that HR had changed their format. So it wasn’t the choice of the interviewer. The continued questions about conflict, difficult coworkers, mistakes, were reminding me a bad situation which turned into bullying. My prepared answers helped, but I was trying not to get sidetracked. I did cry in the car later, though, as it brought up the emotions. :( The re-hash with my DH later, he was pretty impressed with some of my answers, so I must not have done that bad. And yes, I triumphed over my bully. :) I learned a lot, how to be professional, and she is long gone.

  61. Anon4This*

    Given that AAM has written several times that the underlying message to any request for a raise is that if the employee doesn’t get what they’re after, they will leave to get it elsewhere…at what point does the employee have to make good on leaving over the denial of their request before their boss no longer takes these requests seriously?

    Some context: I’m in a middle management position at a company that has not been able to really pull itself out of a sales/revenue decline over the past couple years. We have a lot of debt as well, so I know this could just be an issue of the company is not in growth mode so its difficult for anyone to grow their careers here; but over the course of the last 2.5 years every growth related request I’ve tried to negotiate for with my boss has been denied.

    In early 2015 I was promoted, and received a COL raise in 2016, plus about 45-50% of my bonus potential in 2015 and 2016 so its not like I’m not getting anything. But I asked for a direct report at the end of 2015 (denied), I asked for an extra week of vacation time the year after (denied – even after I pointed out that I would forgo my COL raise that year for the time off, and it was cheaper for the company give that to me instead), also I was recently asked to take on the responsibilities of a departing colleague’s position, since this was a significant permanent change I asked for a title and compensation bump (denied).

    At what point will I have to leave over these denials before my boss stops taking these negotiations seriously?

    Or do you think my boss has already figured I’m not going to look elsewhere over any of this because I haven’t left yet…?

    1. fposte*

      I think some of this is really industry-dependent, and I’d also say salary and other stuff overlap but aren’t the same. Could you get another week of vacation at another employer in your field? Would your position level have a direct report elsewhere? If the answer is no, you’re the person who asks for the moon, and the boss didn’t take the requests seriously from the start. If the answer is yes, it’s closer to you being somebody who tried to find flexible ways to increase your compensation and got blocked in a way that doesn’t bode well for your trajectory. If you took over the duties of somebody who outranked you but didn’t get any kind of bump from that, I would say that’s a really clear message about your advancement there; if you picked up a percentage of somebody who did the same stuff as you, not so much.

      But it does sound like you’re seeking stuff from this employer you’re not getting, so maybe instead of wondering if they think you won’t walk you could do some window-shopping to see if you might actually want to.

      1. Anon4This*

        These are good points! Some additional context:

        I’m sure I could negotiate for another week of vacation from any other employer in my field, no problem, but it would be easier to do as part of a new job negotiation and dependent on all the other factors in their offer. I know of new hires at my current company who have negotiated for a lot more vacation time, and provided far less value than I do (they’ve since left the company).

        My position would typically have one to several direct reports at other organizations, here however I am just a function manager and have not had the opportunity yet. I’ve managed others at other companies prior to joining this one…so I don’t think anything I’ve asked for is out of sorts. Plus the work level and goals for my current role warrant a direct report to ensure all the work is completed in the timeline planned.

        The job I was asked to take over is at the same level as mine, and I doubt in itself pays any more or less, however I wasn’t going to agree to take all that on without a commiserate benefit to myself; namely a title that reflects the work I’d be doing, and a salary bump (nothing huge, less than $10K). I ran this by several peers whose judgement I trust and all said it was a perfectly reasonable solution.

        Of course, I know I can start a job search to find out if I could get these things at another organization. I’m just wondering if the time to do that is NOW, since its obvious to everyone that I won’t get them at my current company or if 3/4 unsuccessful negotiation attempts in 2 1/2 years isn’t that bad.

  62. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I got another legal contract gig doing foreign language work! Sure, using German all day every day is tough…but $55 as opposed to $24 an hour? And we just keep getting more stuff to look over, so it will be maybe a month or more of this!

    Also, that will help pay stuff down and implement my wife’s and my new fianancial system- instead of a joint account for everything (because there’s some, but not a lot, of extra money), when there IS extra we are putting 85% to joint, 10% to our personal accounts, and 5% to joint savings.

    It’s more fair, because sometimes I’ve been feeling like I have to wait to buy something I want, or not spend money, while my wife is more apt to just buy the thing. She’s much better at math and aware of bills, so she would know better what can be bought, but I still wanted a change because it burned my biscuits to have to wait two weeks to buy a $20 computer game, while she spent that amount in smaller transactions on other wants, some for both of us, some for her.

    I might be bad at math, but I still want Chinese food and vintage computer games. :) although now I’ll have twice the spending money she does, so maybe I will take us both out with it, or buy much better Fitbits (I want one that can track all different exercises, and stair climbing).

    1. Sydney Bristow*

      Congrats on the foreign language gig. I did contract legal work for years before getting a permanent position at one of the firms I contracted for, but I don’t speak any other languages. I kicked myself for giving up on Japanese in school because those rates are $85+ here the last I checked.

    2. periwinkle*

      My spouse and I have a similar financial system. We have shared checking and savings accounts into which the bulk of our paychecks go. We each also have a personal account. My direct deposit is set up to send a small fixed amount (about 5% of net pay) to my personal account, a much larger fixed amount (about 55%) to joint checking, and the rest into joint savings. Most expenses are paid out of our joint accounts but I use the personal one for my student loan auto-deduct payments ($155/month) and the occasional cute purchases from Etsy.

      Also, I recommend the Fitbit Flex 2. It’s not bulky, tracks stair climbing, and is waterproof enough for tracking swimming workouts as well. It’ll be a good reward for those German legal translations…

  63. Your Weird Uncle*

    Last week I posted about having interviewed for three separate jobs. I was offered two of them on Monday – one was for my manager’s job and the other is for a job that is my field (plus more responsibility, but minus the things I hate about my current job). I might have received an offer for the third, but since their timeline was longer than the first two and I needed to respond to both of them this week, I withdrew from consideration.

    Anyway, it was a hard decision as I can see myself making a good manager and the salary was higher, but I chose to stay in the job that is currently in my field. Unfortunately, the managerial job – while offering a higher salary than the other – also lowballed me on salary for that role and I wasn’t willing to compromise. But I’m excited about the new job! It’s (hopefully) all the stuff I love about my own job with a considerable bump in pay! Salary aside, I felt like it was the right choice for my career.

    Yesterday I found out that annoying coworker ALSO applied for two of the jobs that I did, and the one I accepted was her first choice. I was surprised and appreciated her candor, although it must hurt to know that I was the one who took her out of the running for that job.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        Thank you! I’ve always felt like my wheels have been spinning in my career – either staying still, or falling behind. This is the first time I’ve really felt like I’ve been gaining traction. I couldn’t have done it without the AAM archives, either. I spent almost every minute of the past two weeks absorbing every ounce of information I could. :)

  64. Anonjour'hui*

    Is it weird/bad that I don’t have friends at work? I’ve been at a nonprofit job in a upper junior/lower-middle management position for nearly 5 years. I enjoy my job and my coworkers and have pleasant, fun working relationships with all of them. However, I’m a bit of an ambivert, slanting on the introverted side, and I haven’t made any friendships deeper than chatting in the elevator or enjoying quick after work drinks that the whole team/department is invited to. I really don’t enjoy eating lunch with other people (for decompressing reasons), and have a small child who I have to retrieve from his nanny right after work, so hanging out on the fly after hours isn’t really an option. Plus I have always felt like a bit of a cultural mismatch–married, early 30s with a small child, whereas a lot of other people my age are single and/or childfree. Plus, the industry I work in is very hip and social, and I’m a bit more bookish. Others seem to have found good friends, and I feel like an outlier. I usually make situational friends fairly easily and have an active social life outside of work, so I feel a bit stumped. Is this strange?

    1. Rincat*

      Not at all! I think it sounds perfectly normal. I’m in the same life situation as you, and I also tend to be more introverted. With the exception of about 2 or 3 people, I rarely make friends with my coworkers. Most of the time I just don’t have the energy for it, even if we’re a good match. I don’t see anything wrong with not doing things outside of work with coworkers. My thinking is, I’ve spent 40+ hours a week with these people, and wonderful as they may be, I don’t want to be around them any longer than that!

    2. T3k*

      From an extreme introvert, this sounds normal. Admittedly, my 2 post-college jobs I was at for only a year each, but even then, I was on nice terms with my coworkers, just not friends. I was sad though to see one girl leave so soon at my second job as we got along well the few months she was there (it was a family run business, so the only other person around my age was related to the owner).

    3. Clever Name*

      I’ve only had 1 job where my work friends were “outside of work friends”. My current company is filled with people who are really close and genuine friends, and while I adore working with each and every one of them, they’re not my friends. And I’m okay with that. I have a group of amazing friends outside of work who are incredibly supportive and caring. I do like having a bit of separation between my work life and my personal life.

    4. DDJ*

      I second “Clever Name,” I like that I don’t have friends at work. Colleagues, yes! People who are fine to socialize with at work events? Absolutely. People I want to get together with on the weekend? Not so much. But there aren’t a lot of people in my group who ARE outside-of-work friends, so it doesn’t seem strange to me, I guess.

      I’ve often wondered about it, though! Like, is it weird that we’re just colleagues and NOT friends, even though I’ve worked with some of these people for 8 or 9 years? I guess I just have enough friends and social engagements outside of work that I don’t really feel like I’m missing out by not having stronger relationships with coworkers.

  65. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Y’all might find it interesting to know that I’ve been having an email exchange with the “is my team culture too exclusive?” letter-writer from earlier this week. She sent me an update that, frankly, really did make me suspect she might be trolling me, and I asked her that outright. She says no (but I guess a troll might say the same), and upon further reflection on our back and forth, I do think it’s plausible that people really do think and feel the way she’s describing thinking and feeling.

    Anyway, we’ve traded numerous emails, and she says she has now been fired. Which is an update I thought people might find interesting. I might end up printing the update and subsequent exchange next week, although I’m trying to figure out if that’s too icky or even exploitative when someone is being very, very wrong-headed and I know printing it will just inflame people.

    1. Kim Possible*

      I would love to see that exchange!

      Although, I would understand your reasoning for not, given the situation you describe.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Whoa. I totally disagreed with the OP, but her getting fired seems like maybe HR is scape-goating her? My guess is she is not entirely responsible for the company culture, but maybe I misread the letter.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It was the beer runs and the allowing of snapchat bullying, but also a bunch of other problems she described in the update (mismanagement on her side) that were really serious, as well as apparently a bunch of complaints.

      2. Manders*

        I think the more extreme stuff that the letter writer mentioned in the comments, like the Snapchat photos, was probably what crossed the line for HR. And of course, we only get to hear the letter writer’s side of the story here. It’s possible that there were much more obvious problems we didn’t hear about because the letter writer didn’t believe they were problems.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I suspect a troll’s ultimate motivation would be to “show you,” so her admission that she got fired makes me believe she’s the Real Deal. That letter was insane, and I must have emailed the link to everyone I know — but I’m not sure how much good the update would do beyond your comment here.

    4. LizB*

      You could post it with comments closed? That way we get to know what happened (please please please) but don’t have the opportunity to create another pile-on.

        1. Snark*

          Yes, I really like this idea! All that can constructively been said to her already has been.

          1. Rincat*

            Captain Awkward does this sometimes with posts where she rightly anticipates a huge pile-on. I’d love to read the updates but yeah, I could see those comments exploding again!

        2. Jaguar*

          You could also just keep it off the front page and post a link to it in this (or another) open thread. That would arguably save the problem of making it visible to us without exploiting it by making it a published update (sort of). You could even exclude it through robots.txt, if you have access to that, so it doesn’t show up in Google searches.

          1. Jaguar*

            That said, without knowing the contents of the e-mail exchange, it does seem kind of exploitative to publish it without the letter writer’s consent. That kind of falls under off-the-record, doesn’t it?

        3. Liane*

          A little late to this, but I would be interested in just reading the emails, without the temptation to go all Engineer Alice from Dilbert.

      2. fposte*

        Yes, I like this; I don’t think overall comments would be useful but people would be interested in the update. (I’d either keep an eye on or also close comments on the original post at the same time.)

      6. paul*

        that’s what I’d do. I mean…there isn’t much for us all to say to them at this point ya know?

    7. Emm*

      I want to see it, too! It seems like it might be some anti-millennial troll, but speaking as a millennial who’s worked in that type of environment and butted heads with management like her, I’d enjoy getting a sense of her thought process.

    8. Mazzy*

      I noticed in the comments that they posted they got fired, but only after commenting a few other times. It was as if they wanted to get a reaction on their first comments before giving us more information, and that made me feel like they were playing games.

      To be honest it also raised my eyebrows when they referred to the work group as a group of millennials. All over the internet millennials are saying “we’re not different!” “stop stereotyping!” or “not everyone in our generation does that” but this person was proud to sum up some cliquish behavior to “us just being millennials.” Really? Sounded, off….

      2. fposte*

        I think she only said she was suspended in their comments on that post; the firing is either subsequent or something she didn’t want to admit to yet.

      3. Jaguar*

        When trying to engage your bullshit filter, it’s worth looking at it from the other side. If you were designing a hoax letter to Ask A Manager, would you handle it like that? I wouldn’t. I would add a lot more teasing information, be more defensive about my stance, etc. How would a sincere letter look? I think pretty much like that: has your assumptions built in, providing information conversationally as is relevant, and so forth.

        I really don’t think it’s a hoax based on what we’ve seen.

    9. Katie the Fed*

      I would just post it and close comments from the get-go. I’d love to read it. I actually never doubted this was a real person, but Ive seen some crazy stuff in my day. I think this was just a young manager who really didn’t understand what a manager’s job was (ie. not being buddies with everyone).

      I’m glad she was fired because I don’t know that she would have learned the seriousness of what she did otherwise, kind of like our hero from the London Tube. Sometimes it takes a real wake-up call to bring about change. You just have to be willing to accept it. Hopefully she’ll learn and bounce back.

    10. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I know a lot of us would be interested, and I think you’re right that it will inflame the comments. Maybe post with closed comments?

      1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Aaaaand I should read the thread before I make a suggestion that’s already been made a bunch of times.

    11. Observer*

      Could you publish and close comments? I’d really like to understand a bit more how all of this happened.

    12. This Daydreamer*

      I just saw the update and, damn. That was far worse than I was expecting. I’ll read the comments when I get time but I don’t know if I can say anything more constructive to her than to tell her to get her head out of her ass. I’m just stunned. Thank you for the update because it really makes it clear just how messed up the situation was.

    13. This Daydreamer*

      The update was horrifying. But then I saw her comments about seeing a therapist and a career coach. And she started easing up on the defensiveness. She’s still not seeing everything she needs to, but I think this is actually starting to get better.

      Am I crazy?

  66. peachie*

    Anyone have advice about reaching out re: a job that’s not currently posted? There’s a local tech company whose product I use at my job, and their model is to have a dedicated support person dedicated to each of their customers. This is generally a bit higher-level. Because of my role and my interest in this particular technology, I know all the ins and outs and am good at solving problems that come up without having to contact support. I also do customer service as a large part of my job, which I enjoy and have been recognized for.

    I know from acquaintances I have met at the company through various meetings and training sessions that they have had a hard time finding the exact right fit for this job, especially because there’s a bit of a steep learning curve for the software, and they’re always on the lookout for people. However, these are not acquaintances that I feel I know well enough to reach out to.

    Back in the winter, there was a posting for this role; I got my resume and cover letter together, but ultimately, decided not to apply. Now, though, I’m thinking I might be much happier with a role like that, and I’d love to reach out to see if they would be interested in hiring someone for a support role if they were a good fit–even if they were to just keep my information on file until something opened up. I feel like it’s too intense to just send a resume and cover letter, but I’m really not sure who to contact or what I would say. Any advice? Or should I just consider this a missed opportunity?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think I would let it go as a missed opportunity. If you really do want to send your resume to someone to keep on file, I would consider sending it to your acquaintance with a note that says something like, “Fergus, a while back we discussed the Teapot Analyst position and you mentioned that it could be a difficult role to fill. I would be very interested in the role if it ever opened up again, and wanted to pass along my resume just in case.”

    2. Sparkly Librarian*

      I don’t think that’s too intense. It’s exactly what a cover letter + resume is good for: you express interest, explain why you’re applying without seeing a listing, and show them your work experience in a positive light. Reviewing your resume (and choosing whether to reply or interview) takes less work on their end than answering an email (perhaps one of several) saying “Are you hiring?” without additional context on who’s asking.

  67. LizB*

    Looking for some thoughts:

    I’m a manager of let’s say the Chocolate Teapot project at my workplace. We have a few sister projects in Strawberry Teapots, Vanilla Teapots, Caramel Teapots, etc. — similar goals and processes, shared office space, but no overlap in clients or products. I have nothing to do with managing any other project or team.

    One of my best friends, Jane, took an entry-level position on the Vanilla Teapots team after hearing me wax poetic about how much I love the Teapots Department. She loves the job, her manager and clients love her work, I’m super thrilled about it because everyone is happy.

    I’ve continued to be good friends with Jane outside of work. We see each other on weekends, text frequently, vent about non-work-related things to each other, have joint holiday parties, etc. Sometimes when we see each other in the office we’ll chat briefly about our weekend plans, and one time we hung out during our lunch break. But whenever we act friendly in the office, I’ll find myself wanting to explain to everyone that we knew each other before she started working here. I don’t know if I’m over-justifying and worried about nothing, or if I really do need to watch my professional boundaries. Plenty of other people in our workplace are friends outside of work, but it’s less common with managers & non-managers; usually it’s two entry level staffers or two management staff. Thoughts, O wise commentariat?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I highly doubt anyone is paying attention to your interactions or even cares. Especially if there is no potential quid pro quo thing going on.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would keep interaction low key but let your boss know that you are friends outside of work.

    3. Kathenus*

      I have a similar situation in my job. I manage one department and have a friend who is a lower level manager in another. We knew each other before either of us started working here. I’ve casually mentioned our previous friendship at times, but didn’t go out of my way to inform people about it.

  68. MsMaryMary*

    We’re interviewing candidates for an open positon this week. One candidate arrived a respectable 5 minutes before her scheduled time, and as she sat in reception, the fire alarm went off! Our receptionist was trying to tell the hiring manager that the candidate was here, but the hiring manager couldn’t hear her over the alarm. The receptionist pointed the candidate towards the emergency exit and told her where to go, but the poor girl had to go down five flights of stairs in her interview suit and heels. Eventually the hiring manager found candidate in our parking lot and could introduce herself and look out for her, but it was certainly not a great beginning! It was at least 15 minutes past the hour before everyone was organized and could start her interview.

    The rest of the interview went fine. We’re going to offer her the position.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Well I mean, it’s hardly your fault, though it must have felt like a bad omen to the poor girl. Still, can’t help laughing at it.

    5. Karo*

      One of my friends was recently in an interview where the fire alarm went off – the woman actually continued to interview my friend as they tromped down 7 flights of stairs.

    6. KelJohnson*

      100 years ago I interviewed for a job in Los Angeles. As I was sitting in the waiting area we had an earthquake. Had to walk down 23 flights of stairs. In heels. I was only 21 and just moved to LA and was terrified. Got the job though!

    7. Chaordic One*

      A couple of years ago I was listening to a story on NPR, possibly on “This American Life,” with Ira Glass. They were telling stories about interviewing people for jobs. One young man told a story about interviewing a young woman on a rainy day. I can’t even remember what kind of business it was or what the position was. The woman sat attentively in the storyteller’s office and the interview seemed to be going well when all of sudden, the ceiling tiles, wet from the rain, fell down hitting the job applicant on the head. Obviously there was a leak in the roof. The applicant was also deluged by a couple of gallons of water.

      The interviewer apologized profusely and offered the applicant a towe, but the interviewee stood up, leaned forward and rung out her long hair, and then, with a great deal of dignity, declared, “I don’t think I’m a good fit for this position,” and she then walked out of the premises never to be seen again.

  69. LDP*

    Since I’m job searching, I’ve really beefed up my LinkedIn profile and I got a weird bit of feedback from a former manager recently, and I was wondering what others think. The summary section at the top of my profile is written in the third person. This may just be a holdover from writing all those essays when I was in school, but talking about myself in the first person on my LinkedIn profile just seemed off to me. Anyway, my former manager (who still works in the same department as me, just in a different role) told me that it should be in the first person because “it sounds like you have a personal assistant who wrote it for you”. Which seems like really odd reasoning to me, since my profile clearly states I’m an intern (has there ever been an intern with a personal assistant?). Anyway, should I leave it in third person or should I change it to first?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would change it to first person. It’s clear to everyone who is reading LinkedIn that the LinkedIn user created their own profile, so I would write it as such.

      1. LDP*

        Okay, glad to know that other people aren’t assuming I’m having someone write on LinkedIn for me! I’ll go change it now. Thanks!

    2. katamia*

      I’d never conclude that it was written by a personal assistant (that’s a really weird logic leap IMO), but I do thnk you should change it to first.

      1. LDP*

        I thought it was a really weird conclusion, too. She was never very good at giving clear feedback when she was my manager, and when she did it was usually about stuff that was really trivial, so I wasn’t sure if this was just another instance of that.

    3. Mazzy*

      Change it! A higher-up in my industry has theirs in third person and its hillarious to read. We know they wrote it. It’s just such a useless distraction.

      2. Squeeble*

        It’s so weird, because in other contexts it’s super normal to write something about yourself in third person, and for other people to know that but also think nothing of it.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      I really dislike profiles in third person and it would completely put me off. To me it sounds like you think you’re a celebrity.

  70. Quit or Cope?*

    My superior is a bully. He says nasty, intentionally hurtful things then turns on a dime and acts solicitous and complimentary. He bullies everyone – it’s not targeted at me specifically, nor is it related to any protected class. I was warned about him before (and after) I took this job, but his cruelty has become increasingly unbearable. I don’t think I have the emotional or psychological fortitude to keep working for such a cruel person.

    Quitting (right now) is not an option. I am not independently wealthy. I am in a profession where jobs are few and far between, and where the job market is a year-long cycle. I can go on the market this year, but there is no guarantee I will get anything. It might take years to get another job in my field. I also have family concerns that make leaving more complicated.

    I actually like this job and my career a lot, except for this one thing. So how do I cope with a bully who makes me cry and takes pleasure in tearing me down?

    1. fposte*

      Therapy, for one. Deliberate methodologies for stress relief. Deciding if there are responses that make you feel like you have agency but aren’t putting your employment deeply at risk.

      Sorry. That sucks. (If it’s academics, I apologize on behalf of my field.)

    2. LizB*

      1. Therapy. You shouldn’t have to be going through this, but since you are, get someone in your corner who can help you develop coping strategies and process this jerk’s behavior in a healthy way until you can get out of there.

      2. Any chance you and your coworkers can bring this to someone over his head as a group? His behavior should really be unacceptable to the higher-ups in your organization even though it’s not related to a protected class.

    3. Marisol*

      I’m feeling a little sick so this will be a bare-bones response.

      1) release any attachment to the outcome. If you need to meet deliverable x, and boss’s attitude is preventing that from happening, then just accept that the deliverable won’t be met and don’t internalize any feelings of guilt or shame. If you make a good faith effort, then you’re doing your job and you deserve your paycheck regardless of the outcome.

      2) practice looking at him with a blank face and saying absolutely nothing. Literally practice this with friends, and in the mirror. Pretend you are an uncomprehending animal, a dog, or an alien, or someone who just doesn’t speak English, and let your face go completely neutral without any emotional affect whatsoever as you gaze upon him. Look as though you’re just waiting patiently for him to finish his sentence. Practice that look, then when he says something outrageous, give him that look and wait. It’s not aggressive. It’s not defensive. It’s nothing that would get you in trouble. But it will likely make him very uncomfortable, and shut him up, because that’s just what that neutral look does. If he says something shitty, it’s very likely that no response is really warranted, and you can just look at him like that in total silence. If a response is warranted, then you have to control your impulse to react automatically, and look at him for a few (or several) sentences before you respond.

      When you do respond, remember that what you say doesn’t matter all that much. Much is made of having the perfect script, but in a case like this, all that matters is keeping your composure. So you could say something like, “what?” or you could make a summary of the situation, like “you just called me a twatwaffle” or you could up the ante and say something like, “what a rude thing to say.” But whatever you say, you must be calm, and take as much time as you need.

      Another thing you can do is ignore subtext completely, and receive any insulting questions as though they were normal, respectful ones. So if he doesn’t use vulgar language but say, has a hostile tone, and says, “haven’t you FINISHED THOSE REPORTS YET???” you can pretend it was a value-neutral, polite question and respond to that: “no, not yet.” People who insinuate things are counting on others to do their dirty work, but you don’t have to.

      Decide if he is the kind of bully who will back down if you push back. If he is, then call him out whenever he is inappropriate. If not, then you will want to default to neutral whenever you interact with him. Some bullies like to get into fights, and they like to see people cower in fear, so the only way to respond is with calm rationality. If this guy is like that you don’t want to give him any emotional charge to work with.

      This is a little rough but I’ve got a headache so I’m leaving it that way. Hope it helps!!!

    4. Ron McDon*

      I had a nervous breakdown years ago, due to my boss bullying me in this sort of way – complimenting me in front of others, but being dismissive and rude about my work in private.

      I complained about him to our personnel manager, and the company (very reluctantly) moved me to work for a different executive in the company.

      However, the damage had been done – I couldn’t feel good about working there any more, my productivity and time keeping slid, and I ended up going onto anti-depressants and leaving with only one weeks’ notice (they did offer to let me leave immediately, but I stupidly wanted to ‘save face’ and work a notice period; I should have just left that day!).

      Do you have an HR department or someone above him that can make him toe the line? Can you be moved to work for another supervisor?

      Speaking from experience, sometimes it is best to put your mental health above your career/financial concerns; I really regret not quitting way before I did, as it has affected me for the 20 years since.

      I wish you all the luck in the world, and hope you can find a solution.

    5. Observer*

      Start looking and start saving. Save every penny you can – but DO spend some money on your sanity. Find something that helps you cope and feel better and do that, even if it costs.

  71. Reluctant Meddler*

    I have a small dilemma about whether to speak up about something.

    I used to work for a particular department at my workplace, but due to some restructuring several months ago, I’m now in another and a new person is in my old role. I helped train the new person but only briefly. One of my duties has always been to collect mail from the mailroom. I used to do this for the old department and still do for my current one. Due to the setup of the mailroom boxes, I was able to see that it doesn’t look like anyone has collected mail for the old department in a while, and I’m a little concerned that the new person forgot that mail sometimes needs to be picked up there (it’s a confusing setup because sometimes stuff is delivered directly to the department).

    But I don’t want to overstep (surely someone over there remembers the mailroom, right?) or sound nosy. I’m not really in contact with anyone over there anymore. Should I say something to the new person, or leave it?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Since you trained the new person, I think it’s completely within boundaries to notice they may have forgotten some of their training, and remind them of it.

      1. Anna Held*

        I’d even go so far as taking the mail along, casually saying “hey, I noticed you missed this”, and asking how things are going. Ask a couple questions about tricky issues and make sure you have half an hour in case they need to talk. It’d be very helpful to New Person and would reflect well on you as being helpful and having follow through.

        YMMV due to office culture, though.

        1. Reluctant Meddler*

          I can’t do that, unfortunately, because our mail is in locked boxes (they have windows, though, which is how I can tell there’s stuff in there). I also don’t work near this department anymore, so I’d have to go out of my way. There’s very little communication or collaboration, so I’d basically have to email her and be like, “So, I happened to peek at your box when I was getting stuff out of ours….”

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            I still think that, given your role as someone who helped train this person, it wouldn’t be out of line to shoot them a quick note to say “hey I noticed your department’s mailbox was pretty full when I stopped by the mailroom earlier today and wanted to make sure that collecting the mail was on your radar.”

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            I’d basically have to email her and be like, “So, I happened to peek at your box when I was getting stuff out of ours….”

            And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. At all. “How’s everything going? I noticed your mailbox is full. Don’t forget, mail needs to be picked up daily. Let me know if you need a refresher; I know we covered a lot in a short amount of time.” It’s not weird or overstepping at all.

            1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

              Since you trained the person, you should/could definitely let her know about the mail piling up. You can send her a short email asking how she’s doing and then mention that you noticed HER group’s mail piling up in the box. Gently remind her that mail should be picked up everyday. No fuss no muss.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My friend has been picking up the mail for her new cohort for about six months. I guess she thought it would be obvious to get the mail out of the mailbox? Anyway, yes, say something. My friend finally said something and no more problem.

  72. JanetM*

    Alison, I thought you might like to know that your work was featured on this month’s Office Dynamics podcast from Joan Burge. The topic was “Anchoring a Reputation of Excellence,” and she attributed six keys (show respect and kindness to all, keep your word, work hard, exceed expectations, help others, and welcome feedback) to you.

    I’ve been reading your blog for a few months, and I was so excited to hear your name!

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Thank you for telling me! Those probably would be the six keys I’d come up with if I had to come up with six keys! Oh, and (7) be willing to speak up when you disagree on something of significance.

    2. D.W.*

      Congratulations, Allison! And thanks, JanetM for another podcast to add to my list! I’m going to check it out.
      I also like I Hate My Boss. Allison, it would be awesome if you made an appearance on that podcast as well.

  73. a*

    If there’s a job that you’re interested in that you don’t have a related degree or any real experience in but that you know you can do (or at least learn to do with relative ease), how would you format your resume? Example of jobs off the top of my head: editor, translator/interpreter, waiter/bartender, library clerk.

    1. Confused Publisher*

      I’ve just done this, and taken the job. I restructured the bullet points under each listing in my CV to make sure I was demonstrating similar/comparable skills as asked for in the job description (so for example: managing multiple projects over a long period of time whilst working with lots of teams has overlap irrespective of what the product is), as well as a track record of learning new things quickly.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        And also, this is where your cover letter is going to be really important. Your cover letter has to explain that while you realize you are under qualified for the position, your skills from your current job can be parlayed into the role you are interested in. And then give examples. I’m doing this myself. I’m currently an Admin Assistant, but I’ve been applying for jobs as an Editorial Assistant. In my cover letter, I let them know that although I’ve never worked in the publishing industry, I feel that the skills and experience gained as an admin assistant will help me succeed in the role. And then I give examples of how.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Sorry to rain on your parade, but translator and editor aren’t as easy as they appear. Some people can do them with ease but you can’t know that until you try. Not trying to be mean. Just advising caution e.g. in interviews.

  74. czarinaalex*

    Alison! I would REALLY love to hear your opinion on yesterday’s Dear Prudence letter regarding a coworker stealing a nursing mother’s pumped milk. I’m sure others found it as horrifying as I did!

    1. Emi.*

      Snarkus Aurelius posted about it upstream, in case you want other people’s comments too. The direct link is in my username :)

  75. Backroads*

    This popped up at my teacher board and we are so far stumped of how to approach it.

    Teacher: leaving school to accept different position elsewhere.

    Principal: Can’t yet find replacement and school year approacheth. Floated idea to Teacher of writing long-term sub plans.

    Question: What factors determine how much to charge for this?

    1. Courtney W*

      Private school or public? Public is usually super structured and not at all flexible with how much teachers get paid for things – in fact, I’m having trouble imagining the teacher getting paid anything for the sub plans in a public school scenario like this. Maybe my state/area is just particularly stingy?

      1. Hedwig*

        I’d base it on how much planning time is built into the work day. So, my old job was 5/7 teaching, 2/7 planning, so I’d say 2/7 salary would be fair in that case. Obviously lots of planning happens outside of the school day, but I think that is balanced by the fact that lots of grading happens during planning time and the teacher in question would not be doing the grading.

      2. Julianne*

        I also teach in a traditional public school and cannot imagine (a) admin asking for this or (b) any teacher actually agreeing to it.

        My more helpful answer is to consult the union rep and/or collective bargaining agreement. I know we have a provision in our contract to be compensated for lost planning periods, and there is a contractual hourly rate for certain types of work performed outside school time (such as teaching in after school programs or certain types of administrative tasks).

        But really, unless this is a way of smoothing over an actual breach of contract on the teacher’s part, I think the teacher should push back on this.

        1. Backroads*

          Oh, it’s entirely voluntary as she no longer works for this district. On the other board, she approached it as a way to make a bit of extra money and just wasn’t sure how much would be fair to charge.l

          1. Julianne*

            Oh, that’s very different then! I replied below that my personal point would be somewhere between certain contractual rates, but YMMV. I think $30/hour is reasonable, if not more like $35+/hour, but I am influenced by my local norms (which are above the norm).

      3. Backroads*

        It’s public. The thing is, she would be working purely in a contractor mode, so to speak. She no longer works for the district of principal proposing this and is signed on with a completely different district.

        So… he can’t exactly demand her to do this as he has no authority. It literally is just that: Hey, can I “hire you” to write some substitute lesson plans for me.

        1. Teach*

          I’ve sort of been in that situation, and I learned that it is very, very hard to write comprehensive lessons in your area of speciality for a non-expert and be happy with the outcome. There’s also finding supplementary material, assessing the need for reteaching or moving on…not to mention trying to learn a new position at the same time.
          That said, I’d ask for the equivalent pay for summer curriculum writing. I think around here that’s $20 an hour or more.

          1. Julianne*

            I agree, the challenges Teach cited would really make me hesitant to take this on. I think$20/hour is low, personally, but pay in my district is out of line with national trends. Where I am, I think I’d ask for$35/hour, which is a little under the midpoint between the hourly rates for lost prep periods and out of school time teaching. (And honestly, all districts should pay like mine does, or better, but I’m not going to urge anyone to grossly overreach their local norms just because.)

          2. Backroads*

            I too hate writing lesson plans for other teachers. The other year I was on maternity leave and started prepping some lesson plans. My maternity sub, a lady who was just picking up sub jobs after retiring after 40 years, just laughed at me and told me to go take care of myself, she wasn’t going to follow lesson plans for three months and would be just fine on her own, thank you very much.

            She was basically awesome.

  76. Lora*

    Re: my odd commuting arrangement

    That job was 3 miles from my house and colleague was hired in spring – we got to know each other all summer and fall (we sat across from each other) and he ended up moving into an apartment that was about a mile and a half from work, so it wasn’t a huge burden for him to pick me up. It was actually similar to the route he took to McDonalds. Anyway, he couldn’t cook, was one of those people who burns water, and ate literally EVERY meal at a restaurant. He also had Type II diabetes that was severe and barely-controlled by lots of insulin, and his doctor told him he had to eat healthier, but that’s kind of hard to do at restaurants in general, let alone cheap ones. He was complaining about the Curse Of The Vegetables to me and I said hey, the weather is getting nasty, and I can cook, and I always make breakfast for myself – I can just as easily make two servings, how about I make you breakfast if you drive me to work when the weather is crap?

    So I made a couple of extra breakfast tacos with corn tortillas in the morning until the weather got nice enough that I could ride my bike again.

    1. anon24*

      That is awesome! Breakfast is my favorite meal but I’m not a morning person so when I worked fulltime I would either skip it or have a protein shake. I would be delighted to give a co-worker a ride to work if they got in my car with breakfast for me! In fact I would probably beg you to let me always give you a ride!

    3. Lefty*

      I saw the request for you to follow up on this and I’m glad you did! That’s such an interesting arrangement, but makes so much sense. Do you still do this in colder weather?

      1. Lora*

        We both work at different places now and I take transit to my new job. But yeah, if we were both still at the same place, the arrangement would stand.

  77. Amber Rose*

    Husband did this thing where he emailed someone asking for some paperwork, and was told that it was already sent to him. He’d forgotten to update his tracking sheet for it. He’s currently taken on a lot of extra work in addition to the usual high workload.

    He’s being written up for “lack of attention to detail.” He has done this before, but that was in January, and the other times he’s done this they actually hadn’t sent it, or it got misplaced through no fault of his own, but he was still lectured for it and sent to a training course.

    This mistake is so minor I’m actually floored that it’s even considered a mistake instead of a conversation. I mean, I literally have the same exchange with people a dozen times a week. But aside from that, at what point is it reasonable to expect your boss to let go of the past? If you haven’t made any mistakes in over half a year, and the mistakes were incredibly minor anyway, can you (respectfully, professionally) ask your boss wtf her problem is?

    Because he’s a government worker, write-ups prevent him from applying for or moving to any other position for 2 years. So his boss (apparently) wants to get rid of him, but is also making that impossible unless he burns all bridges with the government and goes back to the private sector. It looks like extreme retaliation. Or sexism (since he’s the only dude in his department.) An additional point is that he has a second boss who loves his work and is usually upset at the write-ups and stuff, but has no power to do anything about it since they share him 80/20 kind of thing.

    I kind of want him to talk to her, and then if that fails, ask his union rep to tell her to eff off on his behalf, but his self esteem is so crushed half the time all he can do is call me and break down saying he doesn’t know what to do, and I’m not even sure what this conversation would look like anyway.

    Ideas? We’re Canadian, for the record. He works for the provincial government.

    1. I'm Not Phyllis*

      That does seem excessive for such a minor thing. (I mean, this has happened to me a few times and I’ve never been written up for it!) I used to work for the provincial government as well – not sure if we’re in the same province – and my suggestion would just be for him to keep doing his job. Honestly, if his boss wants him gone that badly there’s probably nothing he can do to stop it, depending on what level he works at (and some bosses refuse to forgive and forget) but documenting everything might help his case if he decides to pursue unfair dismissal. But being professional and doing his best work will leave a positive impression on everyone else he works with which will help him down the road. I’m sorry though – what an awful way to go to work everyday!

    2. LCL*

      Union rep first. That’s what they are there for. Rep probably won’t tell the boss to eff off, but can fight the discipline every step of the way and help ensure that your husband is treated fairly. I respectfully disagree with your take on this that boss wants to get rid of him. If hubby is doing extra work, and taking on yet more work, and boss is preventing him from moving on, boss is trying to keep him. The way for boss to do this is to break him down, destroy his confidence and make him procedurally stuck where he is. He is valuable to her as a worker. I’ve seen this happen in government and private industry.

  78. Anonymous for this post*

    Just need to share this with people who I don’t work with….I work full time and also have a part-time job from home. (I’m a single mother and need the extra income.) It works well most of the year, but there’s a couple months (now) when I’m super-busy at both jobs, and I just feel like I can’t get everything done in the time available. I’ve been honest with my side job boss that I need more time, but they have no idea how far behind on things I really am. Really stressed about how I’m going to get a handle on this!

    1. Ron McDon*

      That sounds stressful :(

      Can you take PTO from your full time job, to give you time to catch up on your side job? Can you get a friend/family to help you out with the side job to catch up a little?

      I can’t think of any other helpful ideas i’m afraid! Good luck.

    2. Anon for this as well*

      Anonymous for this post,

      I don’t know what side job you have, but if it’s something related to writing online content or something else in my wheelhouse, I’d love to see if I can help.

      See, I’m at a point in my career where I have my own business and don’t have to worry about paying bills anymore. I just finished a project today, and have nothing lined up yet (because in the first half the year I already earned my target revenue for 2017, I can be really picky about what comes next).

      Since I have free time on my hands until a new interesting project piques my interest, if it’s some kind of work I can do (or at least pre-process to save you time), I’ll be happy to do it for you as pro-bono work. If you’d like to see if that would work, you’re welcome to send me an email at adrianashop [at] mail.com so we can discuss. Good luck!

  79. Butterfly Kiss*

    Really torn as far as what to do with my career.

    I’m 2 years out of college with a bachelor’s degree in business administration (degree in finance). I honestly like my office, am good at my job, and enjoy my coworkers. However, feel wildly uninspired, and am unsure any office setting is right for me. I’ve been considering going back to school for a while now, and am very interested in becoming a PTA (physical therapist assistant). Most programs start in the fall (so, I would be applying at schools to start in the fall of 2018, since deadlines for this fall have obviously passed). Programs are generally about 2 years long.

    My concern is that my husband will be graduating PA (physician’s assistant) school in May of 2018. He’ll likely be making a very good salary right out of school, and we’d like to have kids (or at least start trying) within a year of him graduating. If I were to be in PTA school, we’d have to put these plans on hold. I’ve always dreamed of being a mother, so I honestly don’t know if I will even want to work at all (or, at least not full time), once we have kids. At the same time, I don’t want to regret not pursing a career that I think I could love, 10 or 20 years down the road once my future kids start school, and I’m stuck back in a boring office job (or bored at home.)

    Any thoughts/similar experiences?

    1. Amber Rose*

      My mom went back to school when I was in junior high. So the option exists that if/when you get bored with SAH motherhood, you could go back to school then, instead of doing it now and having a difficult gap between schooling and job applications. A 2 year program isn’t so long.

    2. Shiara*

      My best friend’s mother went to nursing school when we were in highschool, with several younger children in varying grades of middle and late elementary school. My own mom is toying with getting a MLIS now that her kids are all out of the house. An older mentor figure of mine is leaving academia to go to PT school, and academia was her second career after a decade in business of some kind.

      And then there’s my friend who took a while, but started studying to become an SLP, got pregnant, and finally finashed the program when her first was four (I think?), and her second was two. (They lived near retired grandparents who helped a lot with kids). She works part-time now.

      So, plenty of options.

      1. Shiara*

        I should maybe clarify that there are many options in terms of lots of ways to handle career changes, kids and school. Some of those options may or may not be feasible based on health, finances, family arrangements, etc.

        I would encourage having a plan, but keeping in mind that that plan is likely going to change in the face of reality. You don’t want to put things that will make you feel more fulfilled on hold in case it takes a long time for the kids to actually make an appearance, but you do need to keep an eye on finances/think about logistics/check in periodically with the people involved to make sure that everyone’s feelings about said plan are lining up with how they felt when the plan was made. And, hopefully, you’ll have a long and interesting life ahead of you. Just because you choose not to pursue something interesting now, doesn’t mean you can’t revisit that thing later.

        1. Butterfly Kiss*

          Thank you for sharing your experiences/friends’ experiences.

          We do have family in town, and my mom has mentioned retiring and watching mine and my sister’s future children once she’s not working anymore (by choice – she is baby obsessed, haha). But, on the contrary, we will also be in a pretty sound financial situation once by husband graduates and gets a job in his field, which will perhaps give me the option to stay at home with our future children.

          I guess my thing is that I don’t know whether being a stay at home mom will make me feel as fulfilled, if not more than any career could. I’m not sure until I have children whether I’ll love being home with them, or whether I’ll regret not pursing a fulfilling career.

          And, as you mentioned, I’m not sure if children will be in the picture immediately, or if they’ll take a while (my grandmother had 12 children, and my mother got pregnant easily, but I have an unreasonable fear of not being able to get pregnant).

          Thanks for the encouragement, though. I do need to keep in mind that even if I don’t pursue a new career now, I can revisit it later.

    3. Courtney W*

      This is tricky because it’s basically impossible to know how you’ll feel once you have kids, but I’ll tell you about my own similar experience. I was working at a job I didn’t really love when my husband and I started trying for kids. I ended up quitting to be a stay at home mom. Our plan was that once our youngest started school, I would go back to school to make a career change. Well, it turns out I HATE being a stay at home mom. My kids are great, being a mom is great…but being at home with tiny humans and no adult conversation for the large majority of the day drove me completely insane. It felt like my only identity was that of “mom” and I couldn’t handle it. I ended up going back to school when our youngest was about 6 months old. I absolutely love my work there, the field I’m going into, and I feel so much more balanced.

      So I guess my point is just to have a plan b for if you change your mind about being a stay at home mom. Is there a reason you can’t pursue being a PTA if you have kids within a year of him graduating? Or a reason you guys don’t want to just wait a couple more years before kids? I’ll admit, there’s been more than a few times that I wished I had gone back to school before having mine – balancing a full load of classes with two little ones at home and a husband working crazy hours isn’t easy.

      1. Butterfly Kiss*

        Thanks for sharing your experience!

        The reason (my thinking at least) is that if I start PTA school is fall of 2018, I feel like I wouldn’t be able to get pregnant/take any time off after having a baby while still in school. From what I hear, the program is pretty rigorous. I would have to wait at least until graduating in 2020. There’s not necessarily a reason we couldn’t wait a couple of years for kids (he’s 25 & I’m 24), other than us feeling ready once he finishes school. We’re still young, but I also have a terrible fear that I won’t be able to get pregnant easily (despite having a grandmother with 12 children, and my own mother getting pregnant easily), so I’d hate to wait a couple more years, only for it not to happen at all.

        I also fear getting into the situation you mentioned though (becoming and SAHM and hating it), which, as you mentioned, would be a good reason to have a plan B, and have the option of going back into a field that I love.

        1. Courtney W*

          I wouldn’t let that fear of problems getting pregnant push you towards having kids ASAP. Maybe even talk it over with your doctor, but barring some problem like PCOS, in the long run it’s really unlikely to matter whether you have kids at 25 or 28. Of course, it’s a really personal decision, and I did have mine at 25 (figured it would take awhile and had a positive test two weeks into trying!) so I get wanting kids sooner. But just try to do what’s best for you in the long run and dpn’t let your fears make important decisions for you.

        2. Airedale*

          From my experience working at a Nursing school (all degree levels), it’s not easy to earn a degree while having a child, either from the time management or financial perspective. (But not impossible) I would explore the degrees in your area, call the schools, and see if the programs are available part-time or online. If degrees in that field tend to be on-campus-only (like lots in the medical field) or full-time-only, that’s something to consider. I bet Reddit also has a community of PTAs who could share their school experiences. Good luck, and congrats to your husband on his graduation.

  80. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So the guy next to me at work eats cheese! No problem, not smelly or anything…but I’m getting to BEC really fast with it/him.

    He doesn’t refrigerate his cheese throughout the day! Just leaves it on the desk. Plus, it’s like, the blocks of it…

    I nearly gagged when I saw HOW he eats it. He…just straight up bites chunks off the block! The unrefrigerated and dried-out block! No crackers or anything. My desk is positioned so it’s hard to totally NOT see him, but it is just such a weird work problem…

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I don’t think I would be able to stop myself from saying something like, “Fergus, doesn’t that block of cheese need to go back into the fridge at some point this morning?”

          1. Angelinha*

            I mean. My office is cold enough that cheese would stay fine out all day. I often leave my lunch in my bag in my cube all morning and….it is fine midday

      2. Chameleon*

        Well, not for a while. It’s not like mayo where you have a good chance at food poisoning. The whole purpose of cheese originally was to keep milk for long periods of time.

        I’m a microbiologist and I don’t find this gross at all (from the “blocks” description I’m assuming it’s hard, rather than soft cheese.)

      3. Clever Name*

        Certain cheeses, like soft ones, are better served at room temp. But it sounds like he’s noshing on a chunk of cheddar or something. While I might snarf down some cheese like this in the privacy of my own home, I’d eat in a more socially acceptable manner at work.

      4. curmudgeon*

        not really… many cheeses you need to serve at room temperature for best flavor.

      5. LadyKelvin*

        We used to take cheese on the trail with us. It would spend a week in Florida heat and it was still good to eat, no refrigeration. But this was cheddar and motz (not fresh) and so it can be left without being refrigerated. In fact, most cheese is made and stored in non-refrigerated places until it goes to market. We store it in the fridge to keep it from growing unfriendly mold, but it can easily survive a few hours or days and be good to eat.

    2. Kim Possible*

      I don’t know why I found this post so hilarious, but just the image makes me laugh so hard!

      1. afiendishthingy*

        Yeah I laughed too. Probably because I have been known to eat cheese this way, although I do refrigerate it and I would never do it anywhere people could see me!

    3. Rincat*

      That’s…so weird! And so much cheese!!!! I mean I love me some cheese, but I’d get sick eating that much?

    4. Courtney W*

      Okay, I really like cheese and will just cut little squares for myself off of a block of it. But that sounds so weird. And the unrefrigerated bit makes me want to gag.

    5. Amber Rose*

      I’m dying inside a little. Cheese, similar to raw meat, gets half an hour at room temperature before things start getting risky. You can go a bit longer with cheese than meat, but STILL.

      Also warm cheese is extremely unpleasant. D:

      1. Chameleon*

        It really doesn’t! Hard cheese is just fine for quite a long time at room temperature!

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Advice for dealing with nausea at work? (Huge part of the reason why cheese guy now bugs me so much).

        I think it’s a combination of eye strain (I sometimes get headaches that manifest with nausea, but lately just the latter), from small print all day with a glasses prescription I can’t update for another month or two, anxiety, and caffeine.

        But basically, I have mild to moderate nausea almost daily, and am puking or nearly so (only at home so far, lucky), every 1-2 weeks. It’s not a disease and I don’t have PTO so I’ve resolved to always stick it out unless I puke ON my work.

        If I wasn’t queer, I’d swear I was pregnant! But it can’t be, since I am only seeing my wife and a trans secondary partner (who I use protection with and is likely sterile due to hormone therapy).

          1. Emm*

            I know this was an accident, but I’m still amused by the flow from “that’s super gross and weird” straight to “Advice for dealing with nausea?”

        2. JanetM*

          For nausea in general, a lot of people swear by ginger. Something like Maalox or Pepto-Bismol or Tums might help as well (I’m sure you know this, but be careful of the Pepto — it can cause constipation).

          Cutting out caffeine is really tough, but may be worth doing — my most recent bout of decaffeination (which I’m currently in) started by tapering down over the course of a week (going decaf until the headache hit, then drinking just a few sips) then quitting over the Memorial Day weekend. It also involved a lot of OTC painkillers.

          There are many suggestions for dealing with anxiety. Something that works for me, oddly, is pinching or biting the web between my thumb and forefinger. I don’t know if there’s a reflexology spot there, or if the pain just breaks the cycle, but it works for me. Your mileage may vary.

          If the smell of the cheese is getting to you, could you sort of cover it up? Maybe put a dab of an essential oil on your upper lip?

          I sincerely wish you well, because ongoing nausea is so very not fun.

        3. NaoNao*

          A couple things:

          Make sure you’re well hydrated. Sometimes nausea or it’s mean little cousin “upset stomach with no clear cause” visits me if I’m not hydrated.

          If you’re okay with essential oils, peppermint is thought to reduce nausea

          Pressure points: the webbing between the thumb and pointer finger if pressed correctly can reduce nausea

          Seasickness bands? I mean, it’s worth a try?

          A stash of bland crackers and ginger–crystalized ginger or ginger ale might help

          When it strikes me, I try to take my mind off it by taking a quick walk, stretches, looking out the window to reorient myself, etc.

          1. Sylvia*

            Seconding all of this!

            Another pressure point: Press where the face of a watch would be on the outside of your wrist, and press the same spot on the inside of your wrist. This is the same place that receives pressure from sea bands.

            When I heard about it, I thought it was dumb, but it was also harmless and free, so why not give it a shot? It worked.

        5. Toph*

          This could be caused by either post-nasal drip you don’t realize you have, or acid reflux. If you haven’t it might be worth trying something like over the counter seasonal allergy medicine, or antacids and see if it goes away or reduces. Especially if the nausea is worse in the morning (your pregnant remark made me think of that), if you have reflux while you sleep and don’t realize it, it can often result in waking up nauseated.

    7. EmilyG*

      Are you a mouse? Is he? That is so weird! I’m picturing Peter Pettigrew, a human mouse nibbling away at his block of cheese.

    9. persimmon*

      Depending on the cheese, this is probably perfectly safe for him–people often take blocks of sharp cheddar cheese backpacking for instance. But you can definitely ask him to change some aspects to be more office-appropriate: to wrap it up in between snacks to avoid attracting bugs, etc. (also so you don’t have to see it, but you don’t have to mention that part), and also to use a knife instead of biting the cheese!

    10. Anon because this is VERY recognizable*

      When my friend-now-boss was brand new at our company, he was asked to stop by the executive assistant’s office for something. While he was kept there talking for half an hour, she casually reached into a desk drawer for what he assumed was a kneaded eraser or sticky-tac or something kept in cello wrap.

      And then she unwrapped it, and the smell of unrefrigerated, plastic-wrapped cheese stank hit him right as she took a big bite off one end. He cut that meeting VERY short, and I learned why that office always had a slightly weird smell to it.

    11. paul*

      my wife and I both do that at home. A bit gauche for the workplace maybe but most types of cheese are fine at room temp for a good while (and cheddar and gouda taste a lot better that way!)

      1. LCL*

        I do this at work. But I work by myself. If I was causing someone to have nausea because of my food choices I would stop if they said something.

  81. Stelmselms*

    So I received my annual review (after 18 months of employment) last week and I’m still processing the feedback I received. I was awarded a “Satisfactory”. I’ve always received “Strong and Positive” or “Exceeds” at all of my other jobs in my 20 year work history. In my review my boss (I’m his EA) dinged me for a process change that he apparently wanted to happen but not once mentioned to me. He also stated that he is unsure how comfortable I am in my role because I am a quiet person by nature. I don’t think that’s true at all as I’m about to take on the role of President for an organization on our campus. He also indicated I need to be more proactive, etc.

    However.

    His wife was diagnosed with cancer three years ago and she recently passed away. For the duration of my employment his mind was rightly focused on her health, etc. I only mention this because I felt like I was trying to be proactive and bring his attention to things that needed to be done. If it wasn’t a fire to be put out that day, it was always, “we’ll do that later, remind me about that later, let’s focus on that later” until “later” became days, weeks and in some cases, months. When I would try having a conversations with him, I felt totally shut down. So I stopped engaging. And now I’m being heavily dinged for being “too quiet and not proactive”.
    Why do bosses wait until review time to tell you what they really think when business could run so much smoother if they would tell you along the way?

    If anyone has any suggestions about how I can appropriately respond to his comments, I would appreciate it.

    1. Murphy*

      Different companies do reviews differently. Mine is completely changing the evaluation process such that it’s going to be very hard to get anything above a “Satisfactory” so it could be something like that. More about the company or your boss than about you.

      Did you mention any of your thoughts during your discussion? (I understand not wanting to, what with his wife’s cancer and all.) But in general maybe you can say that you felt your nudging him about things maybe wasn’t helpful to him, so you backed off. Maybe bridge that into a conversation about improving communication between you both and look at it that way?

      1. Stelmselms*

        I have to prepare the signature page for the other reviews he completed and there are definitely employees who are getting rated higher than satisfactory. I like your suggestion about how to open the conversation about improving communication.
        I did at least get several positive comments about my professionalism, great resource for knowledge, etc.

    2. Emilitron*

      Reviews aren’t really about telling your boss their assessments of you are wrong – responding to his comments should be primarily composed of how you’re going to make changes to improve his perceptions of your work. You happen to know that it’s largely about his perception as much as your actual work, but I don’t think there’s a lot to be gained by trying to convince him of that. So how to respond? Remind him of things as requested. “I’m following up on item X from last week” (oh, let’s focus on that later) “okay, the original email was from 2 weeks ago, we’ve postponed already. Let’s be ready to handle this no later than Friday, I’ll follow up with you tomorrow.”

  82. Emm*

    I could use some help with a situation I’ve found myself in. I’m a very young professional (under 25) and became very anxious/desperate when job searching after a recent layoff. As a result, I accepted a very low-level position typically associated with people with a lot less education than I have. I’m now a week into the job and it turns out that it is the absolute wrong fit for me. I’ve been having panic attacks whenever I have too much time to myself in this new job, and that happens quite a bit. I feel like I need to quit, right? How can I do this without seeming like an ass after only having worked such a short time?

    1. Mazzy*

      I’m not that old but have quite a few stories of people quitting really quickly, or trying to make it last for a few months. Don’t think either is horrible, if there are legitimate reasons for quitting, but I guess most employers would prefer the quicker version. In other words, I think management is pretty hardened to these things and aren’t going to dwell on it for months and think you’re a bad person, or whatever you’re worrying about.

  83. HOA Angela*

    I’m currently a stay-at-home parent. I’ve got a couple unpaid things going on now that I’ll probably make note of on my resume whenever I go back to working in a few years (and no I am not terribly worried about the large resume gap overall, former SAHPs have been very common in my workplaces, but I digress). One of these is that I am currently serving as the president of my HOA board. I’m wondering if this is a thing to put in my resume when I start looking for work again. It’s obviously nothing like the responsibility involved in any kind of paid job, but I actually feel like I have a few accomplishments I can point to from it that are different from things I have done in my job. On the other hand, I feel like HOAs might cause strong negative reactions in people who have dealt with difficult ones (or have only heard horror stories about ones that end up in the news because they are requiring people to buy $500 mailboxes), so I worry that that might cancel out any benefit of showing that I’ve been up to more than “just” watching my kids for these years. So, if you see HOA board mentioned in list of unpaid/other activities on a resume (or if it got mentioned in an interview in response to a relevant question), would you run in horror thinking that person was going to want monitor the color of your shutters?

    1. k.k*

      If there are resume-worthy accomplishments, I would list it along with other volunteer work. Personally, my experience with HOAs comes from living in condos, where it’s more about basic practical things like fixing the roof and snow removal. So in my mind I don’t jump to those horror stories you’re talking about. This may depend on where you live. I’m in an urban area with a lot of condos, so that’s likely how most people think of them. If you know that tricky HOAs are common in your area, it might be something to leave off.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I’m not sure what the job duties you did were, but if there are duties you can list, things along the lines of: took meeting minutes, wrote for HOA newsletter, acted as bookkeeper, then I would list it along with those duties.

  84. The work fairy*

    Am I being too hard when judging applications and resumes?
    We are hiring for a coordinator in a department and they would report to me. We ask for a 4 year degree in a relevant field and 1-3 years of experience. We got about 12 applications so far but going through them I have a hard time finding one that seems appropriate. Some have send 4 pages long resumes (for less than a year of relevant experience), or put extensive descriptions of positions that are not relevant for the position (imagine 6 bullet points to describe waiting and bussing tables in a non-management position). One applicant even copied-pasted the job description we posted online in a section of their resumes called “desired qualifications”. It is so transparent and lazy I have a hard time imagining this person being fit for this job.
    Am I drunk with power?

    1. Courtney W*

      Since you’re looking for someone with a fairly minimal amount of experience, I would consider cutting the people with extensive descriptions some slack – what they are doing is fairly standard (but terrible) resume advice. At least that’s been my experience as I put together my resume. Fortunately I read this site often and know to ignore the bad advice, but if they otherwise seem fine, I would at least give them an interview and see how they come across in person. Obviously not the copy and paste person though – that is incredibly lazy.

      1. the work fairy*

        I see what you mean, and i agree it might be a bit stressful when starting out to have a resume that looks “empty”, and the desire to fluff it up is real! I wish applicants (and employers too) would realize that everyone gets started at some point… I’ll try and be kinder to those that look genuine and competent.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      No, these all sound terrible. What even is a “desired qualifications” section in a resume??

      1. the work fairy*

        I know, right? I asked around in my office and apparently it is a very outdated format. what is odd and makes it worse is that the job description is quite specific to this company (i.e. not just something that could be generic like “meet sales goals and communicate with customers in a friendly manner”), so it looked all the more obvious. and to make it worse this resume was also a 4 pages one, so this candidate really ticked the boxes of everything that bugged me!

    3. katamia*

      IMO: 4 pages is excessive and not a good sign. I’d cut the people who just put extensive descriptions of waiting and bussing tables a bit of slack, especially if no better applications come in. Copying and pasting the job description is weird.

    4. Sherm*

      I’d ask yourself which resumes could possibly be the result of bad job searching advice (and there’s loads of that out there), and what could not. I could totally see someone saying “The longer the resume the better — it shows your motivation!” but I am having a hard time imagining even the most clueless advice-giver saying “You should copy and paste the job description into your resume and claim they are your own desired qualifications!”

      Of course, a bad resume may come from a bad candidate, but even an impeccable resume might be written by someone you never should hire.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        There’s the thing about putting the job requirement into your cover letter with the reasons why you have each desired thing, so I can imagine someone taking that and implementing it wrong… but that would not be someone I would want to hire for a non-entry-level job, probably.

    5. Toph*

      If you’re drunk with power, so am I. I would not consider any of the candidates doing the sort of thing you described.

  85. Allypopx*

    We’ve gotten consistent customer feedback over the last week or so about our staff being rude or bad at their jobs. I’ve checked in with everyone, particularly the shift leads, I’ve spent more time on the floor supervising, I’ve tried to gauge morale – everything seems fine. But clearly something is going on I’m not seeing, and the people who are supposed to bring that stuff to my attention aren’t. I’m super frustrated, I feel like this is a personal failing on my part, my boss is taking notice of the feedback, and I feel completely out of control of the situation. Advice?

    This is a museum customer service/tourism based job for what that’s worth.

    1. JanetM*

      Secret shoppers who are asked to report specifics and names? That feels kind of sneaky, but it’s the only thing I can think of off-hand.

      1. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        This is a good idea. If there aren’t already security cameras with audio that you can access, having a secret shopper type come in would be good alternative. I don’t think it is too sneaky – they are clearly misbehaving when you aren’t around.

      2. Kathenus*

        This is a great idea. If you can afford it, have it be a regular thing versus just an investigation into the current potential problems. My last employer, also tourism based, did these regularly in the main season and they were incredibly helpful in improving our operation. And while you can get constructive information on certain employees or processes, you also get lots of praise for individuals that can be passed on as well so they can have a positive effect in multiple ways.

    2. katamia*

      Some of it might just be a cluster of weird people who have weird expectations of how they should be treated, and your staff didn’t magically conform to their bizarre ideas. A week isn’t a particularly long time.

      Also, you could look into hiring a mystery shopping company to see what’s going on when you’re not there.

    3. Allypopx*

      The reviews are also on TripAdvisor if that makes a difference. Do secret shoppers usually do TripAdvisor?

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I think they meant send in secret shoppers to report back on their own experience of your staff.

      2. Observer*

        The idea is that YOU hire a secret shopper so you can get a view from the shopper’s point of view rather than staff.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      What are the exact complaints?
      Having worked in a touristy type place, I know that people can be pretty harsh. I can remember getting cussed out in stereo because I couldn’t take traveler’s checks.
      People who are on vacation sometimes believe that nothing can go wrong because it’s vacation time. So when they get told NO, do not do X for safety reasons, their world collapses.

      As to the people who are not bringing it to your attention, it’s time for a sit down chat. “This is part of your job. You have not been doing this and you must do this or you have failed to complete all aspects of your job.” It’s tough, I assume these folks are seasonal employees? Maybe you can leverage their desire to work again next summer at your workplace.

      1. Allypopx*

        Oh yeah. They’re year round employees, and those conversations have definitely happened/are in the process of happening.

  86. Courtney W*

    This is a school question rather than a work one, but I could use some advice!

    I’m getting ready to begin my last semester of college, and unfortunately my schedule worked out so that two classes I absolutely have to take are on the same day, fifteen minutes apart from each other, on completely different parts of campus. Typically people drive or take the shuttle to get back and forth between the two buildings I have classes in, but parking is a nightmare with a long walk and the shuttle schedule won’t get me there in time. I’m weighing my options are trying to figure out how to handle this, but it’s looking likely that I will have to either leave my first class five minutes early or be about five minutes late for the second class. But I’ve never had the professor for the first class before, and I really don’t want to be the student that always leaves early. My prof for the second class knows me fairly well, but I know he takes timeliness very seriously – he’s one of the few professors on campus who take attendance, and if you’re late, you’re considered absent. If you’re absent more than three times, it counts against your grade. So I’m stressed here and looking for advice or ideas on getting across campus quickly. I’ve considered buying a bike to bring to school with me and riding that, but it’s not super safe – I’d need to cross a very busy road with no crosswalk, and it would still be cutting it super close time-wise. Any suggestions?

    1. Emm*

      I would send an email to the professor for the earlier class. If your school schedules classes with only a 15-minute gap period in between, the professor has most likely had this situation with other students before. Send a quick email introducing yourself and letting her know how excited you are for the class, but that you are worried you may have to leave a few minutes early. In addition to asking if this is okay, you might consider adding something like “Of course, I’ll be sure to check in with another student after each class to make sure I didn’t miss anything in the final few moments,” and then be sure to actually do that.

    2. T3k*

      Most I knew in this position would ask one of the professors if they could leave 5 mins. early or arrive 5 mins. late. You *might* run into the issue of neither one wanting to give (I knew a few like that). I’d say, if you have a really good rapport with the second professor, ask if they can make an exception for you. If they don’t want to budge, then ask the first one as nicely as possible about it.

    3. Sutemi*

      I had to do something similar once for a class. I spoke preemptively with the Profs of both classes, saying that I would consistently need to leave 5 mins early or 5 mins late and why. I made arrangements with a friend in the classes to get me notes from the 5 mins I missed as needed. Then I did my very best each each class to get attentive while there.
      I do recommend the bike if you can, it is a good way to get around. Can you time out the bike ride before classes start?

    4. Shiara*

      I’d definitely encourage talking to the professors. I would probably suggest talking to both, because even if the first professor lets you leave early, there may be a day where something runs over, and you don’t get out the door in time, and you want the second professor to know what’s going on.

      It’s also possible that if you can get the second professor who knows you well on your side, he can help advocate for you to the first professor. My professors have usually been willing to accommodate early leavers as long as they were given a head’s up, the reason was good, and the student otherwise demonstrated interest in the class and a strong work ethic.

      It depends a little on the material/style of the professor, but from my experience TAing, I found people leaving early less disruptive than people arriving late. And the people leaving early usually would only miss the tail end of the lecture/example session which was easy enough to fill in with notes, etc, while the people arriving late would either miss important announcements, or spend a good 15 minutes lost and trying to catch up because they were completely lacking in the context.

    5. Murphy*

      I had to do something similar once (though parking was easier at the second class). I spoke to both professors. The first one got annoyed and said, “So you’re going to leave MY class early to get to the other class on time?” which wasn’t what I said. I told her that I’d have to leave immediately and couldn’t stay if class went over. I told the other professor that I may be late sometimes and he was more understanding. It was hectic, but I was able to make it work. I’d just be honest with both professors about the situation and do the best that you can.

      1. Courtney W*

        The needing to leave immediately will definitely be true! I know some professors tend to run over and get upset if students start packing up, I’m just crossing my fingers he’ll be understanding! Really appreciate the advice from everyone.

    6. The IT Manager*

      I’d suggest leaving early for simple appearances. Leaving early = you have somewhere else to be. Arriving late = couldn’t be bothered to be there on time.

      But also professor #2 takes timeliness very seriously and lateness will impact your grade.

      1. Friday*

        I agree. Also, always sit in the back near the door so you are truly trying as hard as possible to not be disruptive.

    7. Marillenbaum*

      I would recommend talking to the second professor in advance of the start of the semester. Stress to him that you take timeliness seriously as well, but that short of bending the laws of time and space, you will be arriving five minutes late to class. Stress that you will attempt to minimize disruptions to the beginning of class. Since he already knows you, this might soothe him. However, if he is determined to be a power-mad jerk (and it’s academia, god knows they abound), I’m admittedly at something of a loss.

      1. Courtney W*

        He definitely doesn’t seem to be a power-mad jerk – I’ve gotten the impression that it’s more of a reaction to students who have been late often enough that he feels it’s disrespectful to his time/not showing commitment to the class. But since I’ve had classes with him twice before (and these aren’t huge lecture hall type classes, there’s about 30 of us), hopefully he’ll be willing to cut me some slack since I’m trying my very best and am typically very punctual.

    8. Hedwig*

      You could also set up anarrangement if the profs are amenable to it where you are switching off which class you miss five minutes of (e.g., leave early Tuesdays, arrive late Thursdays), so neither prof feels like you are prioritizing the other one’s class. Although I do tend to agree with those who suggest that leaving early is usually less disruptive than arriving late.

    9. HannahS*

      Well, I’d say you’re going to have to pick one prof to talk to! If the first, I’d recommend emailing them, introducing yourself, and saying that unfortunately you have a scheduling issue where you have class immediately afterwards, and need to leave class by X:45. Would it be alright if you sat by the door, packed up quietly, and slipped out by X:45 each class? Much appreciated, etc.
      Then, be early to the first class, introduce yourself again, re-iterate that you’ll be slipping out quietly at quarter-to.
      But honestly, if prof 2 already knows you, you might be better off emailing him and with, “Hi, it’s Courtney, from your course ‘Wailing with whales’ last semester. I am looking forward to ‘Advanced whaling and wailing techniques’ in September. Unfortunately, due to a scheduling issue, I have a class in Building FarAway and I’m worried that I won’t be able to be on time for every class, although I’ll obviously do my best. Would it be alright if I have a 15-minute grace period before being marked late or absent? Best, Courtney.

    10. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      Email both professors ahead of time. Explain what the situation is, what actions you are considering to minimize the impact to the schedule, and asking if they foresee issues with your plan or could make any suggestions to help. Be gracious and firm.

      I am wondering – are both of these courses part of your major program or is one an upper division GE requirement? Because if both courses are required of your major, it is very poor planning from the department and should be brought to their attention. I’m a department coordinator and this is something I specifically have to look for when scheduling courses: where is the professor’s class located in regards to his own schedule, is this class in the road map with another class and they conflict, etc. If they are both in your major program, they should have been offered at a different time to prevent this situation.

  87. Sherlock*

    I’m seeking advice on how to find my own mentor/career direction.

    My manager currently has a small team (less than 10) and wasn’t initially hired to be a manager but inherited a team after someone else mucked it up. I’ve been working with him for almost 5 years now. Before being hired I worked independently in the public sector and had a boss, but I didn’t require a lot of attention/guidance. This trend has continued as I turn in stellar work/don’t require a lot direct management. Because of this, I feel pigeon holed and worry about growth potential. I think my manager takes the “no news is good news” approach. I only get feedback from him annually (always positive). I have expressed my desire for advancement but in this small company there’s not a lot of room to advance but the benefits are way too good to walk away from without some serious thought. Now that I’m in the private sector (with a complete career change) I don’t know how to continue to move forward in my career.

  88. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    We have a new department chair who arrived this summer. There are two other faculty members and two staff members in addition to the chair and myself. Those four people are not here over the summer: faculty is away every summer and the two staff members have actually left our department permanently. One replacement will start next week but the final staff member won’t be in place until mid to late Spring semester. My role has always been a slower position, with periods of high activity and slim margins to complete items. The person I replaced had been here for 15+ years and had a lot more responsibilities than I did. But now that I’ve been here a few years and we will be short staffed, I’d like to step up my responsibilities. I’m not looking for a raise (yet) but rather the opportunity to improve my skills. I’m going to be taking classes on campus with the goal of finally finishing my degree, but that will be a long process and I’d like to broaden my base while I have a chance.

    Any suggestions on how to approach this with my new Chair?

    1. Anna Held*

      I’d be straightforward, the way you were here. Give specifics of what you can do that needs to be done. Have a framework for how much time you’ll spend on the various areas of responsibility and how it will all work — as well as what you can’t do or shouldn’t take on.

      The new chair might have her own ideas and shut you down, so be prepared to be graceful about that. But chances are she’ll be grateful there’s someone competent around who can do what needs to be done while they’re down staff.

      Don’t forget to build in time for training new staff.

  89. AnnaleighUK*

    First week back at work after summer holidays always sucks but this week has been rather dismal.

    Monday: bike gets flat tyre halfway to work, while I’m at the side of the road fixing it TWO of my colleagues beep me and wave and drive past instead of offering to help. Thanks, guys. I needed that on a Monday. Get to work, log on, find I’ve got over two hundred emails and have to deal with them all because the second person in my department got fired while I was on holiday. I am now a department of one. On the plus side the bag of madeleines I bought for my office while in France were absolutely hoovered up – everyone loved them and it was my first time bringing treats because I’m still relatively new.

    Tuesday: not a bad day – it rained so I drove to work and might have ‘accidentally’ driven through a puddle too fast and soaked the shoes of one of the colleagues who left me fixing my bike tyre at the side of the road. It was Manager’s birthday so there were Krispy Kreme and one of my other colleagues was back from Spain so yay, more treats.

    Wednesday: finally made a dent in the emails. Turns out the reason my colleague had been fired was for passing a building as safe, and half of it had turned out to have asbestos in the walls. And because the owners didn’t know this, they went on with renovations and only found the asbestos when a builder accidentally whacked a hole in the wall. Sigh. Theres more to it than that but I can’t say any more here. That’s the overview. So Wednesday was very busy.

    Thursday: fire drill in the pouring rain. Thanks, facilities.

    Friday: I’m on my sixth cup of tea and I am still ploughing through my fired colleagues emails. It’s 5pm here and I’m not going to get out of here much before 6pm. Plus side, we are going out for dinner later with some friends to gush about out trip. Trying to keep sane!

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        Thanks! It’s just gone 7.30pm and I finally escaped! Dinner is at 8 so I now have to attempt to find a parking space in town. And I still haven’t finished all the emails but I’ve got through the worst.

        Triathlon on Sunday though. Run, swim and ride off all the stress!

  90. Strange New Thing*

    I looked through the archives but didn’t see anything directly addressing this…

    If you apply for a job and don’t hear anything and the job is reposted, is it okay to submit an application again?

    What I saw on AAM were folks who applied and interviewed and then saw the job reposted. Submitting an application and not hearing anything seems less like a direct rejection. I’d also applied a while after the job was first posted so I might have been weeded out just because they were along in the process.

    Any thoughts or experiences? Thanks.

    1. Anna Held*

      Alison commented on this recently. IIRC, she said not to since it’s implied that they’ve already passed on you. I think the timeframe in the question was 6 months, so if it’s just been a few months, then no. If you can change your materials substantively now that you’ve thought more about the job or have a new experience, then it might be worth it.

      My 2 cents: if you’re not too worried about what the people at this particular company will think (i.e. not your dream job, and your industry isn’t too small), I say go for it. My boss couldn’t even get an interview, but months later when she was recommended by someone, they took a closer look and hired her. This isn’t a place notorious for nepotism hires or anything like that, either — it just happens sometimes.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      “Submitting an application and not hearing anything seems less like a direct rejection”

      I’m so sorry but this is also a direct rejection, as disappointing as that may be.

      1. Strange New Thing*

        I’m not asking because I’m sensitive and in denial. I’m asking because there’s been discussion here various times about the many, many things that happen behind the scenes during a hiring process. I could see someone not being selected for an interview but under the different circumstances of another search moving forward.

        (The sometimes condescending tone and generalizations in the AAM comments are a real bummer.)

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Well, sorry you read condescending into that. It’s just that when you said it isn’t a rejection, when it basically is, I rightly or wrongly read hope in your ‘voice’ and didn’t feel nice about squishing it.

          If the job is reposted it means they don’t want to hire anyone who applied, for whatever reason – so if you applied it means they passed. You might move forward with the same position in the future but if you only just applied and then it got reposted, reapplying could come off as a bit desperate or forgetful.

  91. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Apropos of yesterday’s update on the intern who had received the obscene graffiti, what’s up with this idea that being professional means taking anything a boss dishes out without showing one is angry?

    By no means is it everyone, nor, I think, even a majority. But, there seems to be a significant minority. Obviously, yesterday’s letter writer seemed to have a bit of it, a few of the commenters did — although as most were posting in the wee hours, I wondered if many were grouchy due to lack of sleep — and off the top of my head the boss who though the woman who quit after being refused time off to go to her graduation did in a BIG way.

    I’m all for not being a hothead at work. Using ones words is always the best thing to do, but, even in a professional context, people can get angry. When something gets egregious, like harassment, I would be shocked if they weren’t angry. Showing one is angry is not necessarily unprofessional.

    I do wish we all could learn to accept that conflict is a part of living and the ideal isn’t to not have conflict, but, instead, to handle it in a way that solves problems instead of escalating them.

    1. fposte*

      That’s an interesting question, and I think we have a complicated relationship to anger in general. I would differentiate being visibly angry from being unprofessional about it, in that I don’t think the person should have written what I imagine was FU on the envelope, but I also chuckled and didn’t consider it a horrible transgression.

      However, I do think emotions in general, not just anger, should be clearly under control in the workplace absent extreme situations. That doesn’t mean nobody has to be able to tell you’re angry, or upset, or in love, but that it needs to be clear that your behavior is not going to become inappropriate as a result of that emotion. So I guess I’m saying use your angry words.

    2. Courtney W*

      Well, there are different ways to show your anger. Scribbling profanity all over a letter sent to you and then returning it is a strange way of doing so. The intern could have ignored the letter or sent an actual response about the situation – that probably would have been the better approach, since the letter writer truly was trying to make things right and more details could have helped – not that the intern knows that since they didn’t read the letter and refused any contact. Obviously refusing contact is their call to make, and I understand why they feel that way and I might have chosen to cut all contact as well. But I don’t equate thinking it’s unprofessional to return an unopened letter covered with profanity to thinking that it’s never okay to show any anger at work.

    3. BeezLouise*

      I think there’s a way to be professional about being incredibly angry, though. Like if it’s really egregious, you can say to your boss “I don’t let anyone speak to me like this, including you, but I’m available later when We’re both calmer.”

      It’s hard to do in the moment (and clearly easier said than done), but it removes you from the situation fast.

    4. NacSacJack*

      I happen to agree with you, but have learned that expressing anger at work can kill your career or your upward momentum. That said, I did not even consider the intern’s response in the context of professionalism. I saw it for what it truely was, the intern’s intense anger and hatred for said business that treated her so badly, that he or she would not ever want to work there again, never wants to mention it on his/her resume and never wants contact with anyone from that business ever again. I dont think the intern would ever want to be anywhere near her former manager even if said manager was demoted. The OP has to consider that as well. Take the response for what it is. Consider it the last log on the fire, learn from it and move on. We all have different choice we can make in response. The path the OP chose is one. Another path would have been a simple apology. A third option could be to pay her for the remainder of her internship. Legal ramifications constrain our responses. Our EQ controls our careers.

    5. NacSacJack*

      I’m getting a weird response from the website – it keeps saying I already wrote that but I havent posted it yet

    6. NW Mossy*

      I think it’s about how measured and constructive your angry response is. If you say “I’m upset that you called me an [expletive] [expletive],” even in a heated tone, it’s going to come off way more professional than “Back at you, you [expletive] [expletive]!” or punching a wall. The former shows that the rational part of your brain is still in charge even when your emotions are strong; the latter leaves people wondering if you’ll escalate.

  92. MuseumMusings*

    This week was the absolute worst. My anxiety is at an all-time high, I’ve dropped the ball on a client visit (thought someone else was meeting them), a 1:1 with my manager (went out to lunch because it’s normally scheduled for the afternoon), and just bungled up a license plate registration for the company car (wrote down the wrong license plate number, didn’t take a picture to confirm, and ended up buying new plates entirely). I don’t think any of these are very big things in the grand scheme of things, but all together it’s making my head spin. I’m not usually like this – I dot my ‘i’s and cross my ‘t’s – and it’s making me frustrated.

    Does anyone have tips for managing anxiety in the work place? (I finally managed to get an appointment with a doctor covered by my insurance but it’s not until the end of August so anything that can help me make it to then would be much appreciated).

      1. Anna Held*

        Think of it in terms of a bad day, not a bunch of mistakes to dwell on separately. Everyone has bad days. Put the job out of your mind over the weekend and come back with a better frame of mind. When you start screwing up, it’s easy to get stressed and scramble to catch up, then you make more mistakes — or luck just isn’t with you. Do good things for yourself this weekend, then get in to work early on Monday — I always feel so virtuous when I do that — and take a few minutes to review your schedule, last week’s notes, recent emails, etc to ensure you’re not missing anything. A couple days on top of your game will help a great deal.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          You’re welcome! I use it a lot. One time I was waiting at Urgent Care (doctor’s make me super nervous). It worked so well that the nurse laughed when I told her my BP would be high. It was GOOD. Low end of normal, good.

      3. MuseumMusings*

        What a fantastic app! This is just what I was looking for – thank you so much!

  93. Sam Vega*

    I finally took first steps this week in looking for a new job and/or returning to school to finish my degree. The job I applied for would be at the university I would be attending. Of course, it’s far from certain that I’ll actually be hired (or readmitted), but I’m focusing my entire search on jobs at this university since it’s one of the very few good employers in my low-wage small town.

    I’m a bit worried I’ll be passed over without even a chance to interview since it would mean at least a 30% pay cut. I tried to address that in my cover letter, but it’s hard to know exactly how much attention to give to it. I don’t want to make it sound like a bigger deal than it is, but I also want to make it clear that I’ve really thought this through.

    One of the many reasons I’m ok with changing jobs and losing out on that much income is that my current employer recently underwent a poorly planned reorganization and the culture has soured quickly. My job will soon be going from a very reasonable and predictable schedule to pretty much the opposite of that with no change in pay.

    If I’m called for an interview and they have follow-up questions/concerns about whether I’m really ok with the pay cut (which I think would be reasonable of them), how might I convince them that I’ve seriously thought this through without sounding like I’m trashing my current employer or see this as a short-term stepping stone to something else?

    1. fposte*

      I’d focus away from your past employer–what is it that you want that this specific job will give you and that is worth the pay cut for you?

      1. Sam Vega*

        That’s the plan, but I can’t shake the feeling that it won’t be convincing enough. The regular working schedule is important for a lot of reasons (not least my sanity), but it would also let me take a class, or maybe even two, a semester.

        I might want to go back to school full-time at some point, but it seems like a good idea to ease back into it first to make sure it’s what I really want. I wouldn’t offer that info upfront, but I wouldn’t lie about it if asked directly, so I guess my worry is that they’ll want more assurances that someone will stay in the position long-term than I could comfortably give at this point.

        I might make that decision after a year, two, or never. It’s just way too soon to know for sure and I don’t want to sabotage my chances needlessly or mislead anyone about my intentions.

        1. fposte*

          Well, your reasons are personally sound, but it would be good to find ways to frame it that would be more relevant to your value to a prospective employer. Anything you can do to recast it as wanting to work for the university or even that specific department, not just wanting a job schedule that makes the rest of your life better, would help.

  94. KatieKate*

    GRE vs GMAT?

    I’m currently looking at business school, and am figuring out what test to take, as most of the schools I’m looking at say that they don’t prefer one over the other. Except…. really? Anyone have any insight? I’d prefer to take the GRE because my practice scores are better and I feel more comfortable with the format, but I’ll suck it up and take the GMAT if schools secretly prefer that.

    1. krysb*

      I’m doing the same. All of the MBA programs I’ve looked at prefer the GMAT, so that’s what I’ll do.

    2. Lizard*

      GMAT for business school, hands down. If you’re not looking at top tier schools, maybe it matters less, but GMAT is definitely most standard.

  95. Academic Anon*

    I am at an early stage of a career in academia. I am getting married soon and trying to decide whether or not to change my name. Most successful women in academia that I know did not change their name and a few of them hyphenated. I have heard some women talk about how changing their name would affect the way colleges perceived them (more family orientated than career oriented) and fears that a name change would make it harder to connect the papers they published before to their new name. How valid are those fears?

    1. Dang*

      How important is it to you to change your name? If it’s important to you personally, I’d probably change it. If it didn’t matter either way, I’d probably keep it. Just my opinion though.
      I think if you’re early enough in your career it shouldn’t be an issue. I worked in academia and saw plenty of women change their names. If you did change your name, you can always use your maiden name as your “middle” name on publications? That way at least it’s clear that you’re the same person.

      1. Academic Anon*

        It’s not important to me either way. I don’t want to do it if it would damage my career (or had the potential to do so) but I am concerned how keeping my name would look to his family.

        1. k.k*

          You can keep your name legally and professionally, but use his socially. I went with a double barreled last name but am fine with being called just his socially. For the most part most people didn’t ask and just assumed I took his name. When people use just his name or address our mail that way, I just don’t correct them so it’s not an issue. If his family probes or asks directly, “Oh I kept it because that’s the norm in my field because of XYZ. But I use his socially so you’re perfectly welcome to call us the Anons/me Mrs. Anon!”

          And a heads up, they will immediately follow by asking what last name your kids will use, so you’ll want to have an answer prepared. If you are planning on kids and plan to give them his name, feel free to tell them (it will appease them). If you don’t know, or don’t feel like sharing, “We’ll decide when the time comes” and change the subject.

        2. GirlwithaPearl*

          Don’t change your name just to please his family. It sets a bad precedent for your married life.

    2. Manders*

      This is anecdata because I don’t work in academia myself, but my academic mom didn’t change her name in part because of this. And yes, women do have to fight the perception that they’re family-oriented in academia, which is unfair but definitely something you have to keep in mind.

    3. Dr. KMnO4*

      I know that some women in my academic discipline use their maiden name as their middle name, or just go by two last names without hyphenating (Smith Jones, for instance, though that’s less common). Also, some women go by their husband’s name personally but keep their maiden name on any papers they write.

      How your colleagues react depends on them, really. Although I just noticed you wrote “colleges”, but I think that comes down to individuals as well. Unfortunately you will run into some people who are sexist and will just assume that a married woman is more family oriented than career oriented. I don’t know that your choice of last name will really change their view, however, because I think they’d treat a married woman that way regardless.

      For the record, I’m married, and got married after publishing several papers. I haven’t changed my name, but that’s partly because my husband and I are debating creating a new last name. For future publications I’ll probably stick with my maiden name just to keep things simple. None of the colleagues in my department (all male) have treated me any differently since getting married.

    4. Confused Publisher*

      Because of my in-laws’ pressure, I tried to double-barrel. But people kept calling me Academic Title Maiden Name or assuming Academic Title Married Name was someone completely different. I couldn’t get Academic Title Maiden Married Names to stick, personally or professionally, and in the end I went back to my maiden name professionally and legally, let people use my Married name socially, and it’s worked much better for me all round. Unfair? Yes. But that was my experience.

    5. EmilyG*

      Would you be likely to change your name back if you got divorced? I know, not a nice question to ask someone who’s getting married soon. My first name change wasn’t an issue because I hadn’t done much of anything yet, but the second name change made me wish I hadn’t changed it to begin with.

    6. Nynaeve*

      I’ve known women in academia who changed names, kept maiden names, and hyphenated, so it’s all over the map. If your main concern is keeping your publications together, you can get an ORCID number and link it to whatever name(s) you use.

    7. LadyKelvin*

      I changed my name when I got married because I didn’t have a lot published then. I have friends who didn’t change their names at all. I have friends who changed their names but publish under a hyphenated name, and I am currently reviewing proposals where the person changed their name, and on her CV she just noted that she previously published under Former Last Name. So I would not worry too much about your professional paper trail, since that is pretty easy to work around. Really it just matters if you want to change your name. Oh I also have a friend where he changed his name instead of her.

    8. Crafty*

      Hmmm lady in academia here…I changed to my married name because my husband’s is super badass and I’ve always hated mine. It was super easy and seamless, no backlash whatsoever. I was also at an early stage which I feel made it easier because I hadn’t made a literal name for myself yet. Just anecdotal though!

    9. HannahS*

      I don’t know, but I do know of women who used their maiden names professionally and their married names socially. One I’m fairly sure didn’t change her name legally–her patients called her Dr. HerName and her kids’ teachers probably called her Mrs. HisName. I have a friend planning to do the same, and although I’m not imminently getting married I could see myself doing the same. So you could keep your name and have his last name be your “unofficial name” (easiest, I think), change your name but publish/work under your maiden name (trickier, because some official paperwork might have your legal name, causing confusion).

  96. Red Reader*

    I have an interview on Wednesday for a stretch directorship (of projects, not people) – the panel of interviewers includes my current grandboss, another director at her level who hand-picked me to work on a series of ongoing projects with her over the last few months, and three people I don’t know. (Is it just me, or is it somewhat more nerve-wracking in some ways to interview with people you already know? Heh.)

    The position involves a lot of project directing up to and including projects that involve multiple year spans. I have directed many several-month projects for work. I have worked on several-year projects for work as an IC. I have wrangled some pretty significant multi-year personal projects (which I know is nowhere near a professional multi-year project, but I’m still pretty pleased with them). But I have never directed any multiple-year projects on a professional level. I think that’s actually my biggest worry in all of this.

    (But really, in a worst case scenario, I still end up great. My boss, who encouraged me to apply for this position in collaboration with my grandboss, is fantastic and I would be perfectly happy to stay with my current team for a while.)

    1. Henry*

      Sounds like you are in a great position compared to external candidates. I think they want to have an objective process and if you are selected you will know how much they think of you. I don’t think they’ll scrutinize your interview performance as much as the others because they know your work history more intimately than the others. It’s probably more about asserting how much you want the job and demonstrating you won’t be complacent.

  97. Dang*

    I’m having a really rough week. Well, month. Actually, few months.
    Have a ton of new work and am inundated while my coworkers offer lip service about “help” but when push comes to shove, just don’t deliver.
    I hate that it’s gotten to this point, but the amount of help I’ve given to them over the last few years, even when my workload is already high… makes me so bitter. I used to love this job, now I can’t stop thinking about just getting out of here. Lack of support, lack of empathy, lack of EVERYTHING.

    1. k.k*

      Can you speak to your manager about this? You might frame it softly like your coworkers offers are genuine, but you’ve struggled to connect and form solid plans, so it ends up falling back in your lap. You can ask if there’s a way for the assignments to be divided up differently, or ask what you should do when your workload is getting to be too much. A good manager will want to find a way to help you when you’re overloaded.

      If you have a bad manager who won’t be receptive to this kind of conversation…then it may be time to brush off your resume.

  98. CopperPenny*

    Where do you look to find employment laws? I’m looking for 5 employee buisness in Georiga, USA. My company has been bought and the new boss doesn’t pay for over 40 hours a week. You keep two time sheets. One, you submit with 40 hours per week every two weeks. and one with all your overtime that you eventually use for paid time off. So If I work 45 hours a week for 4 weeks I’ll get paid for a total of 160 hours and save 20 hours to be used at a later date. I can’t find something I can quote to the new boss showing where that is not legal, but I want my pay when I earn it. I also want the overtime pay that I will be earning. I still have about 3 weeks before my current bosses leave. I’m not planning on staying long term in the new company, but I don’t want to leave until I find a new job.

    I think I’m too worried about rocking boats and I shouldn’t be. I need to keep my own boat afloat and let them handle their own.

    2. fposte*

      That would be the federal Department of Labor, and you’re talking about overtime under the Fair Labor Standards Act. I’ll post a followup link. The thing is, if they’re trying to be this slippery they’ll quite likely tell you that you’re exempt because of blahblahblah (which will likely be wrong) or that the law doesn’t apply to them because of blahblahblah (which will also likely be wrong). So if pointing out the law to them doesn’t make a change, you’ll need to decide if you’re ready to go to the DOL (it looks like Georgia doesn’t do any of its own enforcement) with a wage claim. Keep records of what you’re owed in any case.

      2. paul*

        I was wondering if I was crazy or if Georgia really didn’t do any of it’s own enforcement. Texas is fairly anti-worker protection in a lot of ways but even here our TWFC goes after wage theft pretty well.

        1. fposte*

          They have a very nice clear website, too, so at least it’s right in your face–talk to the feds, not us.

          1. CopperPenny*

            Whoops, well I missed it. Currently working 2 jobs and planning a wedding. So I’m a bit sleep deprived.

            1. fposte*

              Oh, no, I wasn’t meaning that as a jab at you. It was just kind of funny to me that they had such a nice sleek interface (better than most) but it didn’t get you anywhere–they had more info about reporting UI fraud than about employees getting screwed.

    3. CopperPenny*

      Thanks! I should have looked at Federal instead of just the state. I just figured most states have stricter laws. And thought I wasn’t looking someplace obvious. That’s to know. I’ll mention it to them and see what happens.

      I’ll definitely keep track of my hours.

      1. fposte*

        When it comes to employment law, many states *don’t* have stricter laws. By and large, redder states, poorer states, southern states tend to have fewer employee protections, and how active a state’s DOL is can vary as well.

    4. CopperPenny*

      Oh geez. I was more concerned with not being paid with in the right pay period.

      My current boss doesn’t pay me overtime either and today is my last day. I should have realized this much sooner that they have too.
      Current boss isn’t from the US. Probably doesn’t realize it’s required and not a perk. They only have one employee at a time and normally a student. I’m about to graduate.

      I guess I’ll mention it and see what they say, but it’s probably too late to get it now.

      1. E*

        It’s not too late to get paid for the overtime, in fact by law they have to retro actively pay it to you. And might still be fined by DOL.

        1. CopperPenny*

          I brought it up. I’m worried that pushing to get the pay is going to cost me my reference. The owners are not very happy with me right now. Printing off paperwork and hoping it helps. Telling them it’s important for future employees.

          1. krysb*

            Honestly, I’d rather lose the reference than allow my bosses to get away with not paying me what is legally my due. Also, you could easily note this during an interview and get a former co-worker to act as reference instead. Personally, this is what I would do.

            1. CopperPenny*

              Krysb, I can’t get someone else to be a reference. Family owned business, just me and a husband wife team. Never again.
              Long story short, we decided I fit under adminstrative exempt. Day ended with hugs and well wishes and promises of a good reference. They where glad I told them for the future. When i was ranting, my fiance said their behavior sounded abusive. Since I was an awful employee who was really slow until I found a way they legally don’t own me back pay. And now I’m back to being one of the best employees they’ve every had. Im going to start applying to jobs in a few weeks and I’ll ask someone to call as a reference and see what they say. This is my first job out of college. So I feel I really need the reference. But I’m so glad im no longer working for them.

  99. Going anon to protect my friend's privacy*

    My workplace is hiring for a position that a good friend of mine would excel at. She applied. I sent an informal recommendation (very short email mentioning a few of her positive qualities related to the job) to the person doing the hiring. Friend got a phone interview, may get an in-person interview.

    Friend mentioned to me that she may turn down the in-person interview if it coincides with something happening in her personal life, because that could (in her mind) cause negative health consequences for a family member. Her reasoning was much more illogical than I’ve presented, but that’s the gist of why she feels she might have to refuse the interview. Friend has anxiety, which I realize is what is prompting the chain of thoughts that do not reflect what is most likely to happen. I am sympathetic to her struggles with anxiety, and I understand that she can’t fully control her thoughts. I know she doesn’t want to worry excessively about things that will probably never come to pass. Her anxiety wouldn’t impact her ability to do her job, so I really had no hesitation recommending her in the first place.

    Perhaps selfishly, I am concerned about my own image should she decline the interview. I’ve been at my workplace a little less than a year. So here’s my question: While all workplaces are different, if you were hiring and someone declined an interview (not because they had another job), would you let that color your impression of the colleague who recommended that candidate?

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        Agreed. I may momentarily think ‘Huh. That’s weird. Wasn’t this the lady Jane said was really keen?’ but I think it would be pretty irrational to hold a long term grudge about it. You are, as fposte said, just giving a recommendation – you’re not Jane’s keeper!

        1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          At this stage, No. She applied and you sent an informal recommendation. She was asked to come in for an interview and she declined. No harm, no foul. Now, if she had the interview and did terrible or left the interviewers scratching their heads Or worse, she was hired and was a terrible worker, then I can see it possibly reflecting badly on you.

  100. JoAnna*

    I LOVE my new job. After being in a job I barely tolerated for eight years, I’d forgotten what it felt like to be in a job that I truly enjoy, and not dread going to work every day. Getting laid off this past April ended up being a blessing in disguise!

    2. Rincat*

      Congrats! It’s a super nice feeling. :) I started a new job earlier this year in another department at my university – and I had been in my last job for 7 years. I had gotten so burned out and bitter, and felt like I’d never enjoy working again or have a healthy, functioning team. But my new job is awesome!! I love it here so much.

    3. Jules the First*

      Me too! I can’t believe I’m having this much fun at work…and getting paid more than I ever have in the past!!

  101. Rache*

    So I found out a couple of weeks ago that my company has been bought our by our competitor. No immediate effects, and it doesn’t sound like major changes will happen until after the new year. However, I’ve been here just shy of 15 years and definitely would not be interested in job searching. My current plan is to wait things out to see if I’ll be part of layoffs (which would include severance) – but I’ve also been browsing the local job market to see if there’s anything of interest for me. My resume is up to date (I’m an Executive Assistant), and of course I’ll be reading all of AAM’s advice about cover letters. It’s hard though to imagine leaving a job unwillingly. I’m hoping my track record works in my favor and they decide to keep me.

    1. pat benetardis*

      You have a great attitude. Having been through a few acquisitions, if you do leave at the end, it may not be as unwillingly as it would feel now (since you will have seen or experienced the whole process).

      1. Rache*

        Thank you – this is a first for me. I’ve never been terminated or laid off, so trying to just stay optimistic.

  102. Mazzy*

    Lazy coworker vent.
    I can’t deal with certain coworkers. I can’t! I have a parallel department that is supposed to be in charge of specific measurables, but instead they focus on wishy washy stuff and dance around not meeting their measurables since I got here years ago. One in particular is driving me up the wall, he has this way of talking around every question and evading responsibility with the way he words things. He cannot answer a simple yes or no question or take ownership of anything. Everything slips through his hands like sand, unless it’s something you’d get praised for. Then, even if he did no work on it, he accepts credit.
    My boss, the boss of that Dept Head who manages these coworkers, is very hands off and just won’t deal with the situation hands on, though it annoys him.
    I’ve done random fixes for their department because they overlapped directly with my department or customer satisfaction or requests from lower level employees without much power that I would rather not screw over in order to get back at this other department.
    I have no clue how they’ve gotten through life, never taking responsibility for anything, and always feigning expertise but never getting called out on it, but it’s really grating on me. I know there are people like this everywhere, but I’ve never had it this bad and with so many of them in a cluster.
    It’s been f- up after f-up from them and no repercussions, but they invite themselves to every meeting and get budget for fancy software they never use to actually make any decisions or improve processes with, and now we’re basically paying a few people directly out of school to learn coding. Doesn’t sound bad? Well, we’re not hiring in roles that actually do work that is losing us money and pride ourselves on being a lean ship. Also, there are a few older workers who’d love learning opportunities but don’t get them. But we have a few employees getting paid to get great transferable computer skills in the department that never meets its goals and circumvents responsibility for everything!
    I’m taking off next week to start my job hunt.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      At some point it stops being a coworker problem and starts being a management problem. Your company passed that point a while ago.

  103. Bryce*

    I got a scam job offer yesterday (unsolicited, person reading badly from a [insert nearby city here] script with a company that didn’t have anyone in that city, other warning signs) and the position they offered was “business systems analyst.” This got me wondering, what does a BSA actually do? It’s one of those phrases that sounds vague enough to apply to nearly anything (which is probably why the scam used it), and googling turns up “descriptions” filled with a lot of generalized buzzwords that probably make sense if you already know the thing you’re looking up to find out.

    1. Kitten*

      My understanding of a BSA is a Business Analyst but with a focus on software systems. So, I implemented a Resourcing Solution using some pretty well-known software, and one of the things I had to do was work with the End Users to understand what parts of their role we could automate and, later, what parts of the system needed customising around their specific needs.

      It was a really fun role! It’s Business Analysis that’s guided by the Best Practice use of the system you’re working with, so I found it more structured than traditional Business Analysis.

  104. Stranger than fiction*

    Candiates fault, HR reps fault, or both?
    I have a friend who’s job hunting. She’s awesome at a lot of things but not real techy. She got a response last week on one of her applications to take an assessment test online. She said she did real well with the first two segments but ran out of time on the third, so thought she was out of the running. She was pleasantly surprised when she heard back from the HR rep on Monday asking her when a good time was to set up a skype call so she could finish that portion, which was cognitive testing. We both thought that sounded odd but she went along with it and scheduled it for the next day. Then she had trouble downloading skype on her pc at home, concluding it was probably too old (?), so downloaded it on her phone. I downloaded it on my phone so I could try to go through a test run with her, but it wanted me to deposit money to make calls (?).
    So she left work that day and the call came in fine, then the HR lady said she’s sending my friend a link to take the cognitive test while they’re on the skype call together. However, when she clicked on the link (again, she’s doing this all from a smartphone), it disconnected the skype call!
    So she finished the test and emailed the lady what happened and hasn’t heard back (that was Tuesday). So we assume she knocked herself out of the running.
    One more thing to note is the HR rep never sent any instructions whatsoever.
    Was this an inadvertent test to see how techy she was? Who’s to blame here?

    1. Emm*

      I don’t think this was a test at all! However, I think she should have reattempted the Skype call immediately after getting disconnected. Chances are high that the interviewer knew she was on a cell phone just based on your friend’s position to the screen, but didn’t think through the consequences of clicking on the link. If your friend hasn’t heard back from her email by now (and I’m hoping she sent it on Tuesday right after the call), I would say she should try back again, apologize and re-explain the situation, and let the interviewer know she’s very grateful to be considered in the process.

      Of course, it’s always possible that it was your friend’s test answers that disqualified her, rather than this tech issue.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Thanks. Yes, she emailed immediately after finishing the test. My friend is so discouraged now she said she might as well stay here til she retires! :(

      2. Confused Teapot Maker*

        This. I mean, these things happen with tech – programmes crash in the middle of timed tests, links don’t work the way you expect them to etc. – and most people understand that. I would re-explain (if only just to make sure she knows she wasn’t hanging up on purpose) and then drop it.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      All of this sounds unnecessarily complicated. From reading AAM for a long time, I’m not 100% sure it’s normal to take an assessment test before you’ve had an opportunity to talk about the job. It seems like a waste of time and exhausting. I could be wrong though.

      As for your friend, maybe having to use all this tech might be a warning flag that it will have to be used in the job.

  105. septembergrrl*

    I want to change the name I go by in a professional setting as a function of, I don’t know, figuring out my gender alignment, I guess? I have a pretty feminine legal first name that I’ve always gone by, but I’m starting to think that maybe I want to go by a shortened version of it that isn’t a common name and as such doesn’t have any gender markers associated with it (think something like “Stephanie” to “Nee”). How can I approach this somewhat out-of-left-field wish to coworkers I’ve only worked with for about two years? I’m especially worried because I’m the youngest in our office by quite a few years and I don’t want them to make any cracks about how I’m being flighty or trendy. Beyond that, if they ask follow-up questions on the topic of why my new preferred name is gender-neutral, how can I best avoid any conversations about whether I’m transitioning (I’m not, or at least don’t currently intend to) or changing gender pronouns (I don’t plan to right now).

    And – this is a hard one to answer – how SURE do I have to be about wanting to do this before I raise it at work?

    1. fposte*

      To answer the second one first–I wouldn’t bother unless you were sure. This isn’t something people need advance notice of the possibility of, so don’t make it a work thing until you actually want it to happen and don’t expect to change again. If you want to test drive the new name, do it in your personal life, not at work.

      And I would just do a friendly email or whatever people do in your workplace when somebody changes their name for marriage. “Hi, just letting you all know I’m going to be going by “Nee” rather than “Stephanie” in the future, so that’s why my .sig and handle are different now.
      Thanks!”

      You can’t avoid all questions, but you can starve them; “No, it’s just a name thing I’ve wanted to do for a while.” You can redirect them, too: “How did you decide to be [Whatyou’recalled]? If you could pick another name, what would it be?”

    2. IsobelDeBrujah*

      At the point where your current name becomes uncomfortable, which sounds like now, you are sure. Ask for the change. Any cracks they make about your gender identity or your expression thereof should be met with a swift trip to HR.

    3. JanetM*

      Some years ago one of my coworkers said she’d always preferred her middle name to her first name, and wished she could be called by that. For about two weeks, everyone called her “Amy – uh – Sue,” for the next two weeks it was “A – uh – Sue,” and then we pretty much all settled on Sue. (Names changed)

      I think maybe that if you left out the gender-neutral aspect and presented it as, “Hey, I’m not really all that fond of Stephanie, I’d like to go by Nee now,” your coworkers might be okay with it. However, I’d be prepared for a lot of jokes about ankles, shins, and joints in general. (I realize that it’s probably not literally “Nee,” but if your preferred name sounds like another word, there are likely to be jokes.)

      1. septembergrrl*

        It’s really good to hear that Sue pulled it off without major issues! I don’t mind being called Stephanie while people get the hang of it – I’ll be answering to both names anyway since there are people in my non-work life that I don’t want to broach this with just yet. And, as you guessed, Stephanie/Nee was just an example – but the chosen name I’m thinking I’ll go with actually IS similar to another word so I’ll have to get used to it I guess. :)

        Thanks!

        1. JanetM*

          Oh, one other thing I just remembered — she couldn’t change her name in things like the payroll database without a legal name change, so all her official mail from the university came to her legal first name. This caused some confusion, occasionally, when we had a new student worker sorting mail or someone called for her based on her entry in the university directory. But it wasn’t (at least to me, the department admin assistant) a huge big deal.

  106. TechAnon*

    So, recruiter question.

    One recruiting agency I’m working with (as a job seeker) doesn’t do email. After their second no-call, I asked the recruiter to email me the details and she refused, because “email isn’t the best venue for this, so call me when you have a chance.”

    All the recruiters at this agency do the exact same thing. They hide the number when they call you, and refuse to do email. The one time I picked up at my desk, not knowing who it was, then said I was at my desk, the recruiter said “I don’t see why that’s a problem.” I’m guessing it’s some kind of high pressure sales technique to get people to agree to things they wouldn’t normally. Is there a legitimate reason for operating like this?

    I might be inordinately annoyed by this. I’m thinking I should next the agency. Thoughts?

    1. Rincat*

      I think that’s weird and very annoying. The first thing that jumped out at me is that they don’t want a written record of things y’all talk about. So maybe it is one of those high-pressure tactics? I get that many conversations are better via phone, but she couldn’t just send you a few bullets or a high level overview of what she wanted to talk about? If someone refuses to do that, I get immediately suspicious of what they’re trying to hide.

      1. TechAnon*

        Yeah, I’ve been around the block a few times and anyone who won’t do email is suspect to me.

        The last message I sent was “I don’t have any time today. Send me the job description/other details if you want to move forward.” Not a recruiter but it seems fine to me in both request and tone. Maybe they submitted me to a company I said I don’t want to work for and rhey want to pressure me info doing an interview? Who knows?

    2. mimi*

      I suppose I could see why they might prefer to stick to phone over email… but as for expecting you to discuss your job search while you’re at your desk on the current job? Not okay, very rude actually, and I would also find that very off-putting. They aren’t being considerate of their clients (you).

      1. Observer*

        You mean so no one can hold them to what they said?

        Sure, it’s important to not be so tied to email that you can’t have a conversation. But not doing email at all, not even a brief overview? Red flag central.

        1. mimi*

          Oh, I mean I can see why they might *want* to do that, but that’s not to say I would think it a good business practice or tolerate it. I agree, red flag.

    3. Bryce*

      In 2017? Maybe someone else can provide a good reason but the only ones that come to mind for me are “woefully behind the times” or “doesn’t want a paper trail.”

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        Yeah, ‘woefully behind the times’ stuck out to me too. I can understand people preferring to use phone than email (and vice versa) but surely people know that, if they call you, there’s the chance that you’re going to be in a situation where you can only continue with the call if it’s truly ‘the kitchen’s on fire!’ levels of urgent. Not giving you a number to call back on is just weird and, to be honest, a bit inconsiderate and self-absorbed in a ‘I assume I’m important enough for you to drop everything for me’ kind of way – so, unless they really are that important, I’d drop them.

    4. Katie the Fed*

      Correct me if I’m wrong but they’re working for you, correct? I wouldn’t hesitate to move on.

  107. Owlette*

    Downloading stuff (programs, add-ins, etc) onto your work computer: cool or no? I just wanted to get perspectives from other people’s work environments. I very rarely download things without IT’s permission, but I guess I’ve kind of adopted this “ask for forgiveness, not for permission” attitude now if it makes my life easier. For example, I have to constantly do research/use Google for my job, and ads are just awful. So I downloaded Ad Block because it seemed easier to just do it rather than submit a helpdesk ticket and wait for IT to acknowledge it. Also, our company lets us access Spotify and other music streaming services to listen while we work. Most of my coworkers just use Spotify Web Player, but I was having issues with it…so I just downloaded the desktop application without asking. I mean, since it didn’t prompt me to type in an admin password to install…why not, right?

    1. Owlette*

      I do want to mention: I’m not downloading stuff willy-nilly. Literally, all I’ve downloaded is Ad Block and Spotify without IT’s permission. I’m pretty computer-savvy so I am not like downloading viruses or anything.

    2. Manders*

      I think it’s cool. I often have to download stuff like Chrome extensions as part of my job anyway, so it’s weird to ask every single time if I have permission. I think it’s only really a problem if your company has an issue with non tech-savvy folks downloading viruses or just messing up their computers with useless toolbars and widgets.

      1. Owlette*

        See, that’s what I was thinking. Our office is extremely casual, and there are a lot of young, tech-savvy people working here. Our IT department is literally two 20-something guys they hired straight out of college who usually have an “eh”-shrug mentality when I go to ask them things. So I just stopped asking, lol. Their main jobs are to roll out major updates (which I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole) and to help the non-tech-savvy folks “fix” Outlook.

        Thank you, I feel a lot less scandalous now LOL.

    3. fposte*

      Just for a contrary data point, around here that would be a big no-no, and I actually was pretty unhappy with an employee that downloaded Spotify.

      1. Owlette*

        Really? What happened with the employee that downloaded Spotify? Was it a bandwidth issue?

        1. fposte*

          Clashed with other extensions and broke key functions as a result; we needed tech support to clean it up.

          But I’m also thinking differently about a fixed desktop workstation like that one that’s about the chair and not the person and an issuing of a laptop for use remotely and elsewhere. Is that enough of a difference to make sense? I’ll need to think about that.

    4. T3k*

      I always checked before I installed anything, even Adblock. At my jobs with no IT dept., I’d ask my manger/boss first if I could install something as, at the end of the day, its their computer.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I think this is a situation where I would not recommend downloading personal stuff for use at work. You have a lot of freedom now, and can do your job with minimal interference from IT. I would try to minimize using it so that they don’t take it away and you can’t even download the Excel add-in that you need for your job.

      We had some bad phishing stuff here a couple times already this year, so we can’t even sneeze without putting in a support desk ticket at this point. It’s annoying. I have to have IT add individuals to an Outlook directory list that I own. Grrr. We don’t have permissions to do anything.

    6. Owlette*

      Update: I just went and asked IT. He literally just said, “nah, you’re good, I trust you.” Sooooo that settles it. But yeah, I should probably just ask in the future to save any worry!

    7. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      Oy, I have such envy. We’re not allowed to download anything or add extensions to Chrome. I can’t get any kind of adblock on Chrome. :(

    8. A Non E. Mouse*

      Late to the party, but as IT: I generally don’t care as long as 1) it doesn’t break anything, 2) you confess immediately if it does break something so I can fix it immediately rather than two weeks later and 3) you understand that I don’t support 3rd party apps so if it’s not working like you wanted I will look at you blankly and remind you I don’t support things I didn’t install.

      If all of the above is true, sally forth I say!

    9. Zip Zap*

      At the places where I’ve worked, the unwritten policy was always that it was fine to download work-related software. Some places were fine with stuff for personal use, but I never bothered with that.

  108. Nervous Accountant*

    Last question for today! :)

    Interview attire for apple shapes (aka, big stomach, no hips). Back when I was searching, I was really anal about wearing a solid shirt and black pants & suit etc. Now, I feel like I have a little bit more leeway. Normal interview stuff looked horrible on me to begin with. I LOVE the pencil skirt/dresses look, but most of them tend not to look or fit right on me.

    I still have my old interview clothes BUT I’ve gained weight since I’ve worked, and it’s a super casual dress code so I’m way more comfortable in leggings and casual dresses than formal clothes ugh.

    Any suggestions on what to wear, and where to buy them? My budget is $100/per outfit, 2 outfits max and I’m open to anything, I just don’t want to spend a lot of money on this.

    1. Manders*

      I feel you! I try to keep a nice tailored suit jacket to cover the bulge at the front of a pencil skirt or sheath dress. I’ve also found that pencil skirts with princess seams tend to hang better on apple-shaped bodies than ones that are just one panel all around.

      If you live near a rich area, thrift stores and consignment stores can be a goldmine. Ross and TJ Maxx can also be good places to check. I’ve had issues with entire brands just deciding not to make clothes for my body type for a season or two, so it’s easier to find something that fits in a big store with many different sizes, brands, and styles available.

      Some people swear by shapewear but it doesn’t work on me at all, and seems like it would be uncomfortable to wear during an interview anyway.

    2. Red Reader*

      I just bought three pairs of slacks and two matching jackets at JC Penney for $140 total last week, because I’m in the same boat (except that I didn’t have any old interview clothes left at all, fitting or otherwise). With a couple of shells I picked up off Amazon or already had in my closet, I think I now have something like 20 combo options. (Black, dark grey and light grey pants, black and dark grey jackets. I’m sure not all of the color combos mix and match, but.)

    3. Bend & Snap*

      I’m an apple. I bought a 3-piece suit at Ann Taylor: black dress, black jacket, black skirt. I haven’t worn the skirt yet but the jacket/dress combo is so easy to mix up with jewelry and bags that I haven’t felt weird repeating it with the same people.

      A sheath dress on an apple shape–not belted–can look great. I have all my clothes tailored so the fit is perfect and typically wear a statement necklace with the rest of the jewelry being understated, black heels and a classic bag. I love the look of colorful layered beads a la bauble bar against a plain black suit.

      1. Treecat*

        I second this idea! Sheath dress + blazer combo on apple shapes can look really great. I personally am an hourglass shape and sheath dresses do NOT work on me (I look like a wooden dowel), but my good friend has an apple shape and she looks great in them. I’m not sure if Ann Taylor does free tailoring, but a lot of large, upscale dept stores (i.e. Nordstrom) do so it might be worth checking that out too.

        1. Bend & Snap*

          AT does not tailor, but they DO have great sales. I use a mall tailor and it’s not outrageous price wise and the work is good.

    4. periwinkle*

      I’ll echo the advice for sheath dress + jacket, and specifically Manders’s advice on seamed construction. I’m a short apple, a combination which does not fare well when it comes to work outfits (thank goodness for a casual workplace), but that sleeveless simple dress + tailored jacket combo works beautifully. I’ve had surprisingly good luck with Calvin Klein’s plus line available at Macy’s; their dresses are in the $100-$150 range when not on sale, and Macy’s has a ton of sales.

      If the interview is for a workplace/industry that’s more on the casual side, you could even do a dress without a jacket. For my most recent interview I wore a two-toned gray long-sleeved dress (Calvin Klein), black flats, and hose; this wouldn’t have been suitable for an East Coast law firm, perhaps, but it was fine for a Pacific Northwest manufacturer!

    5. Teach*

      If you have a clothing consignment store (I think Style Encore is a chain?) you can try on lots of brands and sizes easily and in expensively. Shells and accessories would be in the $10-$15 range, so also a good option if you end up with pricier main pieces.

  109. Echo*

    In many of Alison’s answers, including today’s about the coworker who is an unsafe driver, she’s recommended raising concerns or complaints “as a group” to managers. Has anyone here done that and what did it look like? A group meeting? A signed email or letter? An email where people were cc’ed? I’ve never raised a concern that way and am wondering how to convey group sentiment.

    1. fposte*

      I was adjacent to such a meeting once (it was staff in another unit about somebody, I promise not me, in my unit). Three people made an in-person appointment together with the grandboss.

  110. TheOriginalMags*

    I am job searching now and targeting my applications towards the larger (Fortune 500) companies in my area. Any advice on how to identify which staffing/recruiting firms these companies are currently using (and where to go from there)? I feel like my applications submitted through the website are either instantly rejected or decliined via form letter weeks later. I’m new to this area (Cleveland, OH) and don’t have much of a Network yet. Thank you!

    1. periwinkle*

      Something I’ve noticed is that external recruiting agencies often just copy & paste all or part of the client’s own job post. When I worked with an external agency, we re-wrote the posting to add more detail or make it less generic, but I noticed that our competitors did not.

      So, look at the company career sites, copy key phrases from the job postings that interest you, and pop over to Indeed or Glassdoor to search on the exact phrases. If the company is using external recruiters, the search may return listings from different agencies using nearly identical job descriptions. Bingo, you’ve found the recruiters.

  111. SuperPoodle*

    This is work-related, but gnarly emotionally. The question is about how an employer (and other employees, and friends and family) can help staff in the aftermath of a terrible event.

    TW for suicide
    .
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    .
    My partner works at the main branch of a big library, and yesterday a library patron jumped off the mezzanine and fell to the ground floor right in front of two public desks and many staff. I won’t go into details, but it was intensely horrible for everyone involved. My partner didn’t witness the fall, but saw the immediate aftermath, and described it in horrifying terms.

    The library is providing counselors for staff today (and I’m assuming on an ongoing basis), and I’m sure is doing its best to care for the staff. I guess what I’m wondering is if anyone had experienced a terrible event at work, how your employer dealt with it and supported you through it, and if there was anything in retrospect that you really could have used from them, or from friends or family. I know my partner is doing a lot of emotional support for his coworkers, and I want to support him in turn.

    My heart goes out to the person who jumped, and to everyone affected by it.

    1. a nony mouse*

      I… think I work for the same system your partner does, only not at the main but one of the branches. When I heard about what happened, my heart dropped.

      I’m so sorry for what your partner and all his coworkers are going through.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        The whole situation is just terribly sad. I’ve worked in public libraries for years and have had plenty of difficult situations, but this . . . it’s just terrible. Sending healing energies to the library today.

    2. De Minimis*

      I know where this was….my heart goes out to everyone involved.

      At a previous job we had one occasion when an employee committed suicide at home, but it wasn’t talked about other than putting up a sign at the door announcing that the employee had passed away [which is normally what was done when employees died, a sign would be placed showing the person’s photo from their ID badge and giving the dates of birth/death.] I only heard the circumstances through workplace gossip. I think your partner’s employer is handling it about as well as possible. It’s important to acknowledge what happened and to offer support. I think it would also be good to point out available support for employees who are undergoing emotional stress in their own lives.

      Work often requires that people delay processing traumatic events until long afterward, and I think it’s better if workplaces allow people to take time to understand what has just happened.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        Oh man, that’s so hard. I think being able to talk about it is so important (though everyone processes shock, trauma, and grief differently), and only hearing about the circumstances via gossip is so rough. Your comment about work sort of requiring that people suppress their emotional processing is spot on–I think a lot of people are very conditioned to keep heavy experiences like grief and trauma out of the workplace, but it’s so important to acknowledge, well, our shared humanity.

        I think the library has a pretty good EAP and generally is aware of these kind of issues, and they seem to be responding well so far, for which I’m grateful on my partner and his coworkers’ behalf. I guess I’m hoping that institutionally they realize that healing won’t come overnight and that the staff will potentially need some extra support for a while.

    3. Confused Teapot Maker*

      Not at my work but somebody died of a heart attack at a friend’s office. She didn’t see it happen (but had colleagues who did) but did see the emergency services arrive and (sorry to be grim here) the body being taken away in a body bag. Her work sounds like the complete opposite to your partner’s though – she said only those who worked directly with the person who died were offered counselling (she was extremely upset by the whole incident, not to mention her colleagues who saw it happen but nothing was extended to them, as far as I know) and the rest of the staff were expected to go on like nothing had happened. So, with that in mind, I would say your parent’s work and you are doing to right thing by offering up support and somebody to talk to.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        Oof, that’s awful. I think perhaps I didn’t have a sense of how much variety in response from an employer there would be–I figured counselors for everyone who expressed a need was the minimum first step. I’m so sorry for your friend and her coworkers that had to experience that kind of trauma.

    4. Manders*

      Oh, that’s awful, my heart goes out to everyone involved.

      I’ve been lucky not to have to deal with this myself, but my husband is a high school teacher so his workplace does have to have contingency plans for suicide and violence. It sounds like the library is doing the right thing by making counselors available. If they can be extra flexible with leave, give people more breaks, or let the people who witnessed the event spend some time away from the public desk, that might help. If some of the staff knew the patron, it might be helpful to commemorate that person in some way (a plaque, a tree planting, sending flower, whatever seems appropriate).

      As a partner, just taking care of the little details around the house can be a huge help. During periods of shock and stress it can be hard to remember the little things, like whether you already wrote the rent check or what you’re doing for dinner. Just knowing you can trust someone else to handle that for you is so, so helpful.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        Thanks so much for all your ideas! I think the one that really struck me in this context is letting people get time away from the public desk, since that can often be a fraught or stressful place in a public library (and many other places!). My partner is in a side department that doesn’t usually staff the main desk, but his boss may be in a position to help arrange to cover some areas that may be difficult for other people to do at the moment.

        I’m the partner with anxiety who generally lets those details of daily life slip, so it’s a good reminder to be more attentive right now and take extra things off his plate. Making a list of small-but-hopefully-useful things I can take care of today and in the coming week. Thank you!

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I don’t think the situations I have dealt with are close enough to this to advise from a workplace standpoint, but I have unfortunately known 4 people who committed suicide. Two were my son’s high school friends, and their suicides over the same weekend made national news about three years ago. The other two were my uncles, almost 6 and 7 years ago.

      I didn’t know the girls well, but they had been at my home before. Sometimes, this will pop into my head, and it still causes an emotional reaction. Sometimes the girls that I didn’t know well bothers me more than my uncles. I would say that all involved can expect the emotional aftermath to affect them for a long time, and be aware that they aren’t going to forget it, even though this was not necessarily their close friend or family member.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        It’s definitely the sort of thing that becomes deeply pressed into your memory, and even from a bit of a remove it’s so hard to process. I’m so sorry for your losses, and thanks so much for your insight.

    6. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Not work and not suicide, but a mass shooting. I went to school at NIU in 2008. I knew people in the room. A college campus is a little different but one of the best things that school did was have therapy dogs lined along the walkways. Especially in front of the building where it happened. They were spaced out perfectly so no dog was overcrowded and anyone who wanted to could get one-on-one time. I don’t know if this is feasible, but I remember being so happy (and distracted, let’s be honest) that for just a few moments I forgot and felt normal. I cannot tell you how important that was for me.

      1. Manders*

        Yes! If it’s possible to bring well-behaved pets into the office, even personal pets, that might provide some comfort.

        Another little thing that goes a long way: there’s a reason why so many cultures have a tradition of bringing comfort food to people in mourning. Avoid celebratory items like cakes, but send him in with some cookies, candy, chips, etc. to leave in the break room.

        1. SuperPoodle*

          I think pets would be wonderful, though not sure if that’s a possibility at work, unfortunately–though perhaps if people were able to outside of work, a low-stress meetup with people who can bring happy pets to bring comfort might be really healing. But comfort food is totally doable right now, and is such a wonderful thought–thank you so much! It’s a simple way for people to support one another and offer support without pressure. It’s also a way I can feel like I can help, even if just in a tiny way. I really appreciate that idea!

      2. SuperPoodle*

        I’m so sorry you experienced that–I remember that day and my heart went out to everyone there.

        Therapy dogs are a wonderful idea–it sounds like they were amazingly helpful for you and everyone else there! I know there are a lot of my partner’s coworkers who don’t feel up to talking about what happened, but are still upset and processing, and having a gentle dog to cuddle with silently would be immeasurably helpful, I think!

        I work at an academic library and we bring in therapy dogs 2-3 times a semester during stressful times on campus or in the world, and it’s been really helpful here. After your comment, I reached out to the person who coordinates our therapy dogs to see if they can make a recommendation for a local organization who can provide similar services to my partner’s library, and I’ve passed on the idea to people there. Thank you so, so much!

    7. Elizabeth West*

      How awful. I’m sorry for everyone involved, including the deceased. :'{

      I don’t know if your partner prefers to process stuff by talking about it or not, but if so, it helps to have someone to listen. Many people don’t want to if details are grim so it can be hard to do that with family and friends, especially if you need to hash it over a few times. Encourage him to make use of the counselors if needed, and I’d be extra responsive to what he needs from you for a while.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        He tends to be very much an “I’m OK,” self-contained kind of person, and has been generally more concerned about his coworkers, but I’ve been trying to encourage him to talk if he needs to, though trying to balance that with not being pressurey about it. I think he’s really invested in being solid and competent, but I worry sometimes that that means he doesn’t want to be forthcoming with his own emotional needs. I’m trying to be aware of the various layers at work here, and being available emotionally without pressing.

    8. K-Stew*

      I’m so sorry to hear that this happened & that so many were witnesses to it. It sounds like the library handling it really well. I didn’t experience this firsthand really, but a few years ago, one of my coworkers didn’t show up to work, and no one could get a hold of her. My coworkers were able to get a hold of one of her daughters, and the daughter ended up going to her house and found that she had been stabbed to death. Police eventually discovered that her son had been the one who murdered her. Obviously, our staff was shocked when we found out the next day. I also work at a library, and we have a therapy dog reading program for children each month. The supervisors decided to call some of the owners of the therapy dogs and asked them to come in the day we found out about her murder, which was hugely comforting to our staff. Our supervisors were also aware that not much work would get done that day, and allowed any of the staff to attend the funeral if they wanted to without worrying about desk coverage, time off, etc. I don’t think about it as much now, but it sometimes still really bothers me to think about her daughter finding her, the violent way she died, etc. While I realize that chances are this will never happen again to a coworker, I begin to panic (in various degrees) when a coworker doesn’t show up on time and doesn’t let us know in advance. My mind always jumps to the worst conclusions.

      To help your partner–listen if they want to talk about it, and allow for time to grieve/heal. Thank you for being so caring as to want to do everything you can to help them get through this.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        I am so sorry about your coworker–that is just inconceivably awful. I’m glad your employer was supportive during that time, but it makes sense it would haunt anyone who experienced it, and that you would still feel the emotional repercussions of that trauma. My heart goes out to your coworker’s daughter and all the people who knew your coworker. Thanks so much for sharing your experience.

    9. Sualah*

      At my job, someone brought a some guns and ammo to work one day but wound up committing suicide in a conference room. It still isn’t clear if he planned to hurt others, too, or just himself. (It was…a considerable amount if it was just him.)

      They cleaned up the room and that is all we know. There wasn’t even a generic “Reminder that we have an EAP” email. I’m not sure if the people who actually found him got more support.

      So almost anything is better than that, I guess is what I’m saying.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        That’s just so awful. I’m so sorry, and I hope the people who found him were able to find ways to heal.

    10. Typhon Worker Bee*

      How awful for everyone

      Not the same thing, but something that happened at my work (before my time, but I knew most of the people involved, including the deceased): a young, seemingly healthy employee had a brain aneurysm in the office. A friend of mine found her and gave her CPR, but she died in hospital later that day. My friend (and others) were horribly traumatised. The employer provided counseling, and also moved my team to a new floor and rearranged the layout of the area where it happened. People say that this really helped – before the changes, seeing and working around the exact same desk where it happened was really hard for people. Not sure if it’s as easy to manage in a library, but perhaps even just redecorating and moving some of the furniture around would help slightly.

      1. SuperPoodle*

        That’s so hard–I’m so sorry for the loss and for the trauma your friend (and everyone else) experienced. The counseling is so helpful, but I think it was especially thoughtful to move the team and alter the layout–I can see how it would make a big difference over time. I, for one, tend to have strong associations with spaces, and I can so easily imagine that it would be awful for someone to have to sit at the same information desk where they saw someone fall right in front of them. Rearranging the layout, or even the decoration, of the area would be so helpful. Thanks so much for mentioning this, and for sharing your story.

    11. Mimmy*

      Oh how awful :( I can’t even begin to imagine what your partner and partner’s coworkers are going through right now. Your partner’s employer is handling this beautifully.

      My story doesn’t even come close and was not fatal, but it is an example of how a little bit of compassion can go a long way:

      In June, there was an incident at the center I work at. Three (adult) students were outside having a post-lunch smoke when one of them started to shake, then fell onto the concrete, hitting his head HARD. Turns out he’d cracked his skull and sustained a TBI. He had just started our program the week prior and was off to a good start. What bothered me was that, while the staff (nurse and supervisors) handled the crisis swiftly and skillfully, I’d heard that they were not kind to the two students who had witnessed the fall (who were undoubtedly traumatized); they were ordered right to class. One of them told me me later that he was put off by that – he was like “I just saw someone crack their head open…give me a minute here!”

      I didn’t see any of this until I came out from lunch and saw all the emergency vehicles out front, and I did not personally hear the conversation between the staff and students. As I said, the injury was not fatal, and I understand the need to bring things back to normal as quickly as possible, but it sounds like they could’ve been kinder to the two students all the same.

    12. Little Miss Sunshine*

      Thankfully none of the deaths occurred in our building, but at my last job we lost three colleagues to suicide or in the line of duty in four years. It was a very tough time, but we were pretty good at putting together crisis services by the last death. Much like the library, we were unable to close our doors to the public the day of or any of the subsequent days, so we focused on having spaces for people to step into for a few moments when they needed to gather themselves. We had counseling services and a Chaplain available, for those that preferred that approach, in one of the rooms. The other room was a dedicated quiet space, which was a refuge for those of us who preferred to mourn in private. We also focused on having as many healthy foods on hand as possible – many people will comfort eat, but the fatty sugary foods often make people feel worse afterwards. I’m not sure if it would be the same for a patron death, but counseling services also suggested that no one make any sudden life decisions after the events. Instead they suggested waiting 30 days before making any changes, to ensure the change was really what was best, and not just driven by grief.

      My thoughts are with the staff, patrons, and friends/family left behind.

    13. Ramona Flowers*

      An old colleague in a previous job took his own life by train.

      What helped: therapists available immediately in the workplace; a condolence book people could write in; people getting together to support each other. We just sat together and had coffee and were sad together.

      What didn’t help: when I told my manager I needed time out to see one of the counsellors they brought in, him just saying “if you feel you must” and not being a human being about it, asking how I was, anything; and the company totally screwing up how they broke the news.

      If people have been traumatised counselling may not be the best thing – they may need specific trauma therapy. Some EAPs have specific services for traumatic incident response.

      Also, some people want business as usual. Some don’t. Ask them.

      I’m so sorry – this is just really sad for all involved.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      For you, take your partner for walks. Nice quiet walks in pleasant spaces. Walking encourages organ function which in turn helps the brain to process all. the. thoughts. Do this for a while, could be a year, maybe forever.

      For your partner maybe the Friends of the Library could help. Sometimes just having extra people wandering around can feel reassuring. “Yes, I see this. Yes, I am concerned, also” can connect people in powerful ways even if the connection is not as intense later on.

      My sympathy to all touched by this tragedy.

    15. Annie Mouse*

      I’m so sorry for what happened to your partner.
      We regularly see horrible things at work, it’s just the nature of the job I do. A few weekends ago, we had a nasty job involving an under 18. One thing I’ve found my managers are quite good at is the support for us after difficult jobs. Downtime, coffee, being able to go home if we need, offer of a referral to occupational health for counselling (and sometimes a ‘I will refer you to occ health, talk to them and decide if you need it’), and a message to your own line manager so they are aware and can follow up a little bit later and check you’re ok. Among other things.
      And there’s also the support of others in the job. After a nasty job, you’ll get others checking you’re ok, and the offer to talk to another member of staff is implicitly there if not explicitly said each time. All of those things help immensely but sometimes it’s only time that will really help.

  112. technical Lady*

    Posted this a few weeks ago but didn’t get responses, maybe because it was quite late in the day… I’ll give it one more try!

    I have an engineering degree and have been working for 20+ years in various engineering jobs. I am also very passionate and interested in writing and editing. I am now pursuing freelance editing, focusing on technical.

    For example, I’d look to edit specifications, product manuals, proposals, reports, essays, resumes/CL, manuscripts, syllabi, etc. I’m really open to any type of material! I feel that I have a really unique skillset in that I have a technical background but am also able to communicate effectively and understand others’ technical writing, which allows me to help them by editing.

    I am already a member of Editorial Freelance Association and have tried a few different “niche” sites that advertise for editing work. I also have tried contacting academic resource centers/writing centers at various universities to see if they have some type of advertising service where I can reach their students. However, I haven’t had much success. The people I have edited for are always pleased with my work and sometimes send 2 or 3 more jobs for me to edit, but I am really hoping to generate a larger client base.
    Does anyone have tips on how to better promote myself or where to find clients? Any ideas are much appreciated!

    1. LCL*

      Not quite answering the question you asked but here goes…
      We don’t need technical editors at big infrastructure. We need people who can do technical writing about equipment we have in service or are newly commissioning that nobody has time to write operating instructions for. Engineering designs it and says here you go, you all can figure it out as it’s being commissioned, oh and here’s 500 pages of what all these error codes mean. You aren’t finding the editing jobs you think are out there because the documents don’t exist to be edited. We would love a good technical writer assigned to this work!

    2. Tech Writer*

      I don’t see a market for this. My content editing is done by the engineers, who know the product inside and out because they designed it from the ground up. Grammatical editing is up to me, and most jobs I’ve had required a very specific not-necessarily-correct style guide that was based on the company’s unique needs. A freelancer wouldn’t know those things, and it would be too much trouble to get her up to speed.

  113. a nony mouse*

    Children’s librarian here….
    Any other librarians here who are in the midst of Summer Learning/Reading and just counting down the days until it’s over??
    The most work for me, honestly, is managing the teen volunteers who help us. They create more work than anything else! Yet I have like three-four kids who are worth their weight in gold; I wish I could write a glowing reference letter for them. But the 30+ other teens are…. not great.

    1. Kiki*

      Not a librarian, but I work at a school that’s running a summer program right now and I know what you mean! Only one week left for us. And we have two teenage counselors who are amazing. They’re getting a thank you bonus before they leave as well as offers for college recommendations. For the other counselors, we’re just happy they haven’t burned the place down.

    2. anon for this*

      Yes, definitely! Every summer I am always ready for it to end. It’s such a massive undertaking!

    3. Librarian from Space*

      Also a children’s librarian… Summer reading ends tomorrow!
      OMG, I have done more work this summer cleaning up after the teen volunteers than anything else. No amount of training seems to help some of them.

  114. AwkwardKaterpillar*

    I applied for a job earlier this week, it’s been almost 5 years since I’ve done so and I forgot how much anxiety is involved. I’m not counting on anything of course, but it’s right near where I would be taking classes for my master’s, involved more directly in what I will be studying, and fits pretty well with my experience.

    It’s in higher ed, which I don’t have experience in yet. Not having worked in higher ed before I’m not sure if that’s a deal breaker. I would guess higher ed in general would be a longer hiring period, but does anyone have a guess as to an average?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      The summer is particularly slow because it’s typically when people are taking longer vacations, since they’re between semesters. My last higher ed role was surprisingly quick (applied January 3rd, got the offer February 26th), but I think that was because it was a critical role and also the beginning of the semester so things hadn’t quite picked up yet.

    2. Airedale*

      – Hiring in Higher Ed normally takes awhile. I think there was actually a discussion about this on last Friday’s thread.

      – Lack of Higher Ed experience is not a dealbreaker. My office just hired someone without it- they liked her personality and she did have office experience.

  115. De Minimis*

    I just took an online quiz about age discrimination law…very interesting and useful–until I got to the part where they scored it, with each grade being named after a different generation [highest was “the Greatest Generation” and lowest was “Millennial,” which had a really insulting description.] Talk about missing the whole point.

    1. Brogrammer*

      This immediately made me think “Millennial: even the oldest of you are still under 40, so it’s still totally legal to discriminate against you (at least for a few more years).”

    2. Angelinha*

      Ha, that’s annoying. I took a mandatory Diversity course when I started my (government) job and it had a whole section on generations, too, during which we were expected to discuss Generational Differences and how we could overcome them in the workplace…which quickly became a pile-on session of how to deal with Pesky Millenials in the workplace! One guy stood up to tell the longest story about how his DUMB MILLENIAL NEPHEW thinks that having a long texting conversation with him counts as “having a conversation” and when I (a 30 year old whippersnapper) pointed out that….it does…..you, yourself, sir, literally just called it a “texting conversation”….I got glares from all around the room.

  116. Kitten*

    I’m really not sure where to go with this one…

    I left my Old Job a month ago because they were paying me an Administrator’s salary to do a Change Manager’s job and there was no way I was picking up New Pet Project for those terms. I’m not getting on so well at the new place though, and I really miss my team, who are struggling to get New Pet Project off the ground.

    I applied for a few more local jobs this morning just to put feelers out, and immediately got a call back from the Recruitment Agency. The role I’d applied for is my old role at Old Job, with less responsibility and more than three times the pay!!

    I don’t know what to do now. Old Job was pretty toxic, but largely because they paid me so badly to do so much work, the work itself I actually enjoyed. If they’re going to pay triple that for a role I (secretly) really wanted… should I take the risk and go back?

    I’m almost tempted to rule it out just because I’m so confused now!

    Does anyone have any words of wisdom please?

    1. Confused Teapot Maker*

      I would say unless you can absolutely say, hand on heart and rose tinted glasses safely boxed away, that the pay and the responsibilities were your only reasons for walking out the door, I’d pass on this one. I know of people who have gone back to old jobs/similar to old jobs and have felt it was a good call but it was usually several years later, when everything that made them leave the first time around was well and truly in the past. With only a month in between, it would be safe to assume you’re going back to the same place with all the same problems – it would be a bit like taking a counter offer – so I wouldn’t go if you couldn’t stomach that. My gut instinct would this job would be ‘Yeah, you know how we said we wanted you to do ABC. Yeah, well, can you also do XYZ and 123? Kthnxbye!’

    2. curmudgeon*

      Don’t. If the management & people are the same, it will be even more toxic. There will also a lot of “oh, you did this really well when you were here before, can’t you just…”
      There was a clause in my severance package about not applying to anything at my former job so check your leaving agreement

  117. MinDC*

    My boyfriend just got a tough performance review, and was put on a 2-month PIP. Fortunately, his boss did note that she’s seen some improvement recently (but wants to see more), and the issues are more of attention to detail, prioritization of projects, etc.. versus behavorial issues. It’s definitely hard for me to get the full picture as an outside observer, but he does acknowledge that while he’s definitely struggling with some of it, but his boss/ other people he works with can often be unclear in directions, not giving full context (i.e. saying “we need this now” when now sometimes means in 4 hours, or tomorrow). He’s gotten better at clarifying and asking questions when necessary, but he clearly needs to improve.

    – He does to struggle with significant attention to detail and organization issues, to the extent that we both think he may have ADD. He’s going to try to get an appointment set up soon with a psychologist who can help evaluate that, but I worry that it may take too long for him to see much progress while on the PIP. I found a past thread with lots of advice from folks about strategies to deal with ADD/similar issues that I’ll be sharing with him, but if anyone has any suggestions for managing it and/or suggestions for resources for getting evaluated, that would be very helpful.

    The PIP hasn’t been written yet, but I’m curious if people have advice for handling this process. I get the impression that this is not necessarily a formality on the way to letting him go (although that is of course a reasonable possibility), but that they do genuinely want to work with him and see him improve.

    He’s definitely going to start looking for a job (and was already slowly looking – he’s been frustrated for awhile), but it may be tough for him to find a job in his field in a short time frame, so it would be ideal if he is able to at least stay at his job for a few more months, while he job searches.

    1. Eric*

      He should consider suggesting it to HR/management, once there is a formal diagnosis.

      Personal example: I suffer from anxiety and panic disorder, which is why I chose a career with a static, predictable work environment (software engineering). At my last job, my boss gave me a PIP because I was nervous when leading client engagements.

      I was able to explain it to him and HR with my psychologist backing me up, basically saying “I didn’t want to disclose it before because it’s personal, but I have pretty bad anxiety in high pressure social interactions, which I’ve been seeking treatment for since 2014. Also, you know that I might not be great at client engagements, but I’m fantastic at the actual software engineering. How’s it sound if I take some of that from Greg and he can takes over the client facing parts?” His response was basically “okay, that’s fair” and dropped it.

      Your boyfriend may not be able to get that kind of a deal, but ADD (if he has it) a data point management legally needs to consider.

  118. Confused Teapot Maker*

    I have some issues with a superior who isn’t a direct manager who is stepping on my turf. For the sake of protecting the innocent, we’ll call him Fergus and we’ll say I’m a manager in the teapots division of a large ceramics company.

    Fergus is a senior-ranking ceramics generalist who has admitted to me he doesn’t like handling teapots as he considers them his weak point. However, on more than one occasion, he’s been trying to muscle in on the terrority – telling me what sort of teapots to order, suggesting changes to patterns etc. Some of which are very useful, so I say thank you and take them on board – some of which are not, so I just smile and move on.

    However, about a month ago, I was busy with offsite meetings so couldn’t put in a teapot order on the day of the month I usually would. I leave myself two or three days wiggle room so it wasn’t technically late and could be done later. However, when I got back to the office, I discovered Fergus had already put the order in. He added that the work had already started and it would have cost extra to make changes now (this is typically how it works so I have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of this). He told me roughly what he’d asked for and, on the face of it, it was the same as I would have put in so I reluctancly went on with my day. However, then two things happened:
    1) Grandboss asked why I had picked to order this design of teapots as he would have preferred to order in another design. I told him Fergus had put the order in while I was away but it was what I would have done anyway (and explained my reasoning for it). He seemed happy with that and, in the end, they sold well and he hasn’t mentioned it since.
    2) When the order came back, it was an utter mess. I looked over precisely what instructions Fergus had given and they were missing really big chunks of important information. I had to pull some strings with in-house staff to get it fixed and, although we managed, it was a massive hassle and very touch and go (at one point, we thought we were going to have to bin the entire order and start again!).

    I know Fergus means well and I don’t think this is an attempt at sabotage or anything like that – but, quite frankly, I want him to back off or at least not do things without getting the thumbs up from me. As fate would have it, the person who had my job before me just happens to be a friend of a friend and she told me that, not only did she have similar problems with Fergus, he did not take feedback on this issue well (apparently it was something along the lines of ‘I still outrank you so I’ll take over when I deem necessary, even though this isn’t my department’). As I mentioned, Fergus is also pretty high-ranking and I don’t want to essentially number my days in the company by annoying him. Any suggestions?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I would talk to my boss, if it were me. “Boss, how do you want me to handle this? [Insert story. State that you know it’s an on-going problem.]

  119. Anon for This*

    Posted this question late last week, so it didn’t get many responses. Trying earlier this week.

    I left my next to last job in weird circumstances. Basically, my boss physically assaulted me in front of a colleague, and HR and management offered a severance agreement for me to quietly go away.

    That was a year and a half ago. I’m trying to get in touch with the people I used to work with there, not only for networking but because I’m genuinely interested in how they’re doing. So far, I’ve gotten zero responses. Someone even blocked me on LinkedIn.

    I’m concerned now about how this will affect my reputation and ability to get a reference. My old boss could be lying about me. Explaining why I left seems like it’d weird people out, and my severance agreement included a non disparagement clause. Should I let sleeping dogs lie or push this?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Did you negotiate a reference as part of your severance? Do you have any reason to believe they’re not giving you a good reference?

      As far as reaching out to people there to see how they are, I’d let it go. They may have been told something about you, or just think the whole situation is too awkward. They may have even been told not to associate with you. But you’re not going to be able to force them to be friendly.

      1. Anon for This*

        Yes and yes. Severance agreement and correspondence with HR say I’m eligible for rehire. All reference checks are to go through HR, who’ll confirm employment start and end dates, title, and eligibility for rehire.

        But I had a friend who’s done reference checks call our HR rep for me. HR said I wasn’t eligible for rehire. This is the same rep who signed the agreement as a company representative. When I contacted HR, they said that it didn’t happen.

        I spoke to a lawyer (free referral from my state’s bar association) who said it’s not worth suing them, because they can deny and blacklist me. I’m getting worried about this now.

        1. Kathenus*

          IANAL but I can’t say I agree completely with the legal advice you received. I don’t think I’d sue, but getting an employment lawyer to send the company a strongly worded letter about honoring their contractual agreement with you sounds like it might be helpful. Right now they’re hurting your ability to get work, potentially, by claiming you are not eligible for rehire. If they deny, they deny, but hopefully they’ll think twice about doing it in the future. And maybe in a bit have someone else call again, but this time maybe have someone (like the lawyer) listen in as a witness.

    2. FormerOP*

      That’s tough. To help with the immediate issue of references, can you volunteer, teach a community education class, do temp work? Those activities also can help with networking as well. It is not groundbreaking advice, but my last couple bosses either aren’t based in the US or aren’t very confident in English, so I feel your pain on reference hesitation. I’ve found that doing these things can help. For the broader question, if someone does not respond, don’t push it. If a person wants to catch up with you, they’ll write back.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Let sleeping dogs lie.
      I have worked several places where the edict went out, “Do NOT talk to Jane who is no longer employed here. If you talk to Jane you will be no longer employed also.”

      If they are locked down this well, probably the boss is saying nothing disparaging about you. You could have a friend call for a reference or you can hire a company to call.

      1. Anon for This*

        2 questions:

        1. Why would they do that? I’m not the person who shoved a subordinate, making their head hit a door.
        2. I have. They’re not honoring their side. See other reply.

    4. Zip Zap*

      I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. I would question the legality of the non-disparagement agreement since what happened to you was illegal. I don’t think it’s legal to ask someone to sign away their right to report a crime. Take a step back and look at it from a non-work perspective. You were assaulted and the perpetrator’s employer is trying to prevent you from reporting it.

      Are there other places you could obtain legal advice? Maybe talk to someone who specializes in helping assault victims? Or just talk to the police? It sounds like your instinct is that something weird is going on here. I would trust that.

  120. Change in Benefits*

    So I’ve been part of a slightly dysfunctional but profitable company now for three years in a very low level management role in a remote location just outside a Canadian city. 95% of my job is inspecting and maintaining our products or keeping track of supplies. I do help supervise a few workers but my boss still handles all the important parts of supervising such as hiring, firing, giving feedback, giving approval for days off, etc. I have only one collegue here at the same level as me but we’re not supposed to dicusss anything relating to pay with each other and he is new and laid back so I don’t think he’s realized how tangly upper management can be.

    When I was hired on the salary was decent but it was the proximity to my hometown and the prospect of working in my field right out of college that got me to chose this role. The salary was okay, but hasn’t increased to meet the rising cost of living in my area and my increased duties. In short, I’m already burnt out at my job and money is tight, but I haven’t spotted a better opportunity yet to move on.

    One thing that did make things a lot easier was a yearly “bonus” that was calculated out using a clear cut rubric and based on your salary. This was even on my hiring letter and HR and my boss both made it clear this was something they wanted every employee to be able to meet. I could earn up to a 5% bonus though it and since the expectations for earning the bonus was clean cut, I could budget in the extra time to meet these goals and know in advance that I should be getting the extra money, even if they always sent it out months late. Now however there is a new CEO and he seems to be trying to push for increased profits and wants to scrap the old bonus system and only give bonuses to people when two requirements are met. First of all, there will be no bonuses if the company’s profits are not increased every year. Secondly bonuses will only be given to people who manage to find ways to majorly save the company money.

    In other words, they have taken a very clean cut employee benefit and all but taken it away. If you come up with a system that saves the company thousands of dollars, but there is too much money lost to another department, you get no money. If you have a role without much power behind it and you are too busy doing maintenance work, there is no way to earn this money anymore.

    I’ve already started looking for a new job again even though it’s bad timing for me, and I feel really hurt and betrayed right now but I don’t know how even to bring my concerns up to my boss. I feel like he would interpret my concerns as some sort of laziness since the CEO doesn’t want us to continue being rewarded for “just doing our work”, but this is seriously going to affect my lifestyle and it’s making me really wonder how little they care about their employees.

    Am I right to feel like this is all unfair and how would you push back from this? Should I just give up on this miserly employer and look harder or just give up on getting that bonus and look into getting a second job?

    1. CatCat*

      “The salary was okay, but hasn’t increased to meet the rising cost of living in my area and my increased duties.”

      I think the salary and increased duties should be your focus, and you should do some research on market rates in your area. You can make the bonus a part of the compensation discussion, but not so much to push back on the change in the bonus program, but to identify why your overall package is out of sync with the market and your level of responsibilities. Something like, “My compensation package has been $X salary plus annual 5% bonus under the old bonus program for a total annual compensation of $Y. [Make your case for a raise by explaining increased responsibilities, your accomplishments, and market research data.] In light of [your case for a raise] and the changes to the bonus program, I request a salary increase to $Z (where $Z is consistent with the market and not dependent on the bonus).

  121. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Advice for dealing with nausea at work? (Huge part of the reason why cheese guy now bugs me so much).

    I think it’s a combination of eye strain (I sometimes get headaches that manifest with nausea, but lately just the latter), from small print all day with a glasses prescription I can’t update for another month or two, anxiety, and caffeine.

    But basically, I have mild to moderate nausea almost daily, and am puking or nearly so (only at home so far, lucky), every 1-2 weeks. It’s not a disease and I don’t have PTO so I’ve resolved to always stick it out unless I puke ON my work.

    If I wasn’t queer, I’d swear I was pregnant! But it can’t be, since I am only seeing my wife and a trans secondary partner (who I use protection with and is likely sterile due to hormone therapy).

    1. Manders*

      Are you drinking a lot of tea? Apparently the tannins in tea can make you feel nauseated, especially if you drink it on an empty stomach. I can slug black coffee first thing in the morning, but tea makes me barfy if I drink it at the wrong time.

      Ginger, licorice, and mint herbal teas can all be good for nausea. Fair warning, they do make you burp a lot. If there’s anything you can do about the anxiety right now, that might also be worth looking into. And if your headaches with nausea also come with neck stiffness, try a massage and neck stretches to see if that helps alleviate them.

    2. anon24*

      I’m not sure what you eat but have you tried munching on pretzels? I once worked in a high security building where we were locked inside all day with no ventilation. There were so many toxins in the air that a lot of employees ended up with health issues. Mine was nausea. (I was always getting asked if I was sure I wasn’t pregnant). I would bring in a small bag of pretzels and munch on them to soak up the acid in my stomach and they were the only thing that kept me from puking. The days I didn’t have them I would throw up at least once a day.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        I actually don’t like pretzels, but it’s worth thinking about ventilation! I am working in a skyscraper and it’s got worse here.

        And I don’t drink tea, but usually two cups of coffee and a soda throughout the day.

        1. anon24*

          Do you like crackers? Pretty much anything dry and starchy to absorb the excess fluid in your stomach may help. I think it’s a shame that everything that comforts my nausau makes me fat :(

    3. Katie the Fed*

      Pregnant lady here! I had a baaaaaad first trimester and was sick at work a lot.

      THere’s something called Preggie Pop Drops that helped me a lot when I started feeling nauseous. I’m sure you can use them even if you’re not pregnant. Ginger drops and peppermint also can help (not at the same time).

      Can you get reading glasses to help with eye strain until you get your prescription?

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Unfortunately, no- my prescription for each eye is cartoonishly different, and I am one step away from legally blind without them! Fun times. I hope your pregnancy is better now!

      2. Friday*

        More preg suggestions from someone who is finally getting over battling some BAD nausea… Unisom (at night) plus B6 (all day low dose) really helps but make sure it’s not the gelcap Unisom. Also antacids like Tums help me a TON. Keep your meals small and frequent. Make sure you get enough sleep at night and if possible, take a nap at lunch (lie down in your car, maybe?). Best of luck!

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Try sipping peppermint or ginger tea. Or nibbling on saltine crackers.

      You may also want to make an appointment with your doctor to figure out the underlying cause.

    5. Temperance*

      I am also a chronic puker and not pregnant. I suck on sugar-free lifesavers and drink Wild Sweet Orange Tazo when I’m not feeling great. I also throw up at work sometimes, but we thankfully have a single stall restroom where I’ll go to do that.

    6. MuseumMusings*

      Following up on the other tea comments – I found out that my herbal teas had a lot of chamomile in them which was making me nauseous.

    7. Bird*

      Apologies if you’ve tried these things already: I find that small pieces of candied ginger (or even really sour candies) can help settle my stomach. I also use an OTC medication called Emetrol, which can usually stop all but the most heinous nausea within about 10 minutes (be sure to read the label if you have any major medical conditions, though! I think it’s contraindicated if you have diabetes, for example).

      Uh, if you’re a coffee drinker, can you try some of that low-acid stuff? And increase your water intake, since part of what’s giving you nausea+headaches may be dehydration.

      Frequent, short eye breaks can help with the eye strain – just look off into the distance without focusing on anything for 10-15 seconds.

      Does it help if you try to distract yourself? Breathing really deeply, wiggling your toes, squishing a stress ball or Silly Putty?

      I hope some of this is useful!

    8. Rincat*

      In addition to the other good suggestions:
      – lots and lots of water! stay hydrated!
      – take a look at the ingredients in your snacks, drinks, etc – I’ve started becoming sensitive to a lot of preservatives, typically ones for milk products, and they make me really sick – so try doing an elimination diet and eat some really boring, fresh food for a while and then add stuff back in
      – cut the caffeine back if you can
      – try coldbrew coffee, which helps my stomach a lot because of the lower acid
      – deep breathing exercises to help the anxiety
      – a peace lily or other good oxygenating plant for your desk

    10. Chaordic One*

      The suggestions about mints and ginger and peppermint tea are good. I find that having a small electric fan on my desk helps me. (Of course that might be the best idea if it ends up blowing the smell of cheese on you.)

      Also, drink lots of water and in turn this will give you an excuse to get up from your desk and walk to the restroom.

  122. Alice*

    The IT person embedded in my department doesn’t ever answer his phone, has not set up his voicemail (not just no chance to leave a message — it doesn’t even tell you whose line you called, it just goes dead), and if you walk over to his desk he says “I don’t have time, ask the generic helpdesk.” Why is my department paying our internal IT to have him stationed here?

    1. NaoNao*

      Maybe he’s the single IT person for the 600 person company that wrote in a while ago ;)

      I’m not in IT, but my guesses are:

      Most IT systems and departments have a ticketing system set up. This is how they track productivity and other metrics. It would be kind of shooting themselves in the foot to allow people to do walk ups, because that’s untracked activity.

      Many IT people have mentioned with varying levels of niceness, in the comments, that the “general public” seems to rely on IT for things that can be very, very easily fixed (with the voluminous KBs, checklists, tip sheets, and articles they put out, or Google)

      IT could mean a lot of things. He could be the front-line help, or he could be like the other IT person who wrote in that he’s a systems architect who keeps getting asked front line issues.

      I would perhaps approach the office manager or IT director or whomever you think you could get access to, and ask “Could you clarify the IT help desk procedure? Clarence doesn’t have his VM set up and I’m not able to catch him at a good time no matter what, it seems like.”

      1. Alice*

        Hah! That would be funny. No, he’s not a one-man shop and he’s not a sysadmin. We are part of a big organization, and my department (30-40 people) pays IT $100K+/year to embed a — well, I won’t quote the actual title since I haven’t seen it around elsewhere, but an IT staffer who’s officially our first point of contact (confirmed separately by grandboss and office manager, and also by IT’s how-to-get-help page). Still, I asked explicitly — should I be calling the main line instead of this guy? They both said, “well, that will probably be faster considering Wakeen…. But we’ll have a different person starting next month, and that person will take our calls and handle the ticketing for us.” So the broken stair should be fixed next month!
        And btw in this case at least it is not a very very easy fix that I should be Googling — the help line spent half an hour troubleshooting and ended up referring me on to… you guessed it… my department’s contracted on-site person, who needs to come look at it in person. Except Wakeen won’t commit to a specific time, and I spend most of my time with clients or at off-site meetings, so it’s not like I’m just hanging out at my desk working on other things, ready to log in when it’s convenient for him.
        The funniest part — my team and I support for some specialized tools that have pretty confusing UI (which we can’t control) and are not that stable. So we’re often in the same role — helping people who are grumpy and stressed and Just Want Someone To Fix It Yesterday Dammit. The difference is, we respond quickly, we visit/meet with/talk to people at their convenience instead of ours, and we fill out an intake form for our ticketing system instead of requiring the user to do it. Also our voicemail boxes are all set up!
        Sorry NaoNao — I hope it doesn’t feel like I’m unloading on you instead of Wakeen. I like your approach of looking for a charitable interpretation and I will make sure to take that with the new contracted IT person when they arrive. Maybe I can use the attitude next week when I’m trying to connect with Wakeen too… that might take a little more deep breathing or something but it’s worth a try.

  123. Emotionally Neutral*

    I had a pretty bad presentation yesterday and feel bad about it. I trained some co-workers on how to use my project deliverable, the first thing I have authority over since I first started my job. It ended with a lot of criticism and suggestions for changes I should make, and no one was willing to start using the project when my manager considered it ready to use.

    Neither my manager, grandboss, or the more senior employee who guided me on the project we’re present, leaving me as the young female employee presenting to a group of male employees. I felt super self-conscious but still thanked people for their feedback. Am I wrong in feeling a little weird about it?

    Today, I told my manager about how the training went and she was too busy to give it anything other than a passing acknowledgement. Did I do the right thing by accepting feedback and reporting it to my manager? Did I hurt my reputation by backing down in the face of criticism? Is this just something that happens to everyone at some point?

    1. Friday*

      “Neither my manager, grandboss, or the more senior employee who guided me on the project we’re present”

      Sorry this happened to you… I think the main issue with any sort of change, is there has to be strong presence and message from higher-ups that this WILL happen, and it doesn’t sound to me like that message was delivered by the manager(s) of the dudes you trained. So they thought it was still up for debate.

      Schedule a meeting with your boss to go over this more in-depth and ask her for hers and other higher-ups’ support in delivering the message to everyone that your project WILL be used, as it was designed. Best of luck to you.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t think you hurt your reputation by accepting the criticism. There’s no easy answer in that situation – if you respond you sound defensive, if you accept it you sound defeated. Plus it sounds like you were set up for failure with a lack of guidance.

      I think you should schedule a time to talk to your supervisor about it and go over the project, the lack of guidance, and the criticism. You’re a young new employee – your failure reflects more on your manager than it does on you.

    3. Nicotene*

      This does sound bad, but it’s a good learning experience. Sometimes presentations do go off the rails – I’ve been there. It’s important to know going in, what is the purpose and what is your authority. Are you there to propose an idea and get feedback, or are you there to deliver the outcome? If your purpose is to deliver, don’t get pushed off of that purpose. Do you even have the authority to take new suggestions into account, or are you only able to announce a decision? It sounds like you thought you had the authority to declare a new process but didn’t feel like you had the authority to push back against people’s reactions – a bad combo. You can also use the opportunity to gut-check how this process was created – did you allow the end user enough input? Did you take their needs into consideration throughout or did you just try to cram it down their throats right at the end. It stings today, but this is exactly how you become good at these things over time. And in a way it’s NICE that the higher ups have backed off and let you own this, as you will ultimately become an expert this way.

  124. vuchachu*

    I received a LinkedIn message from a recruiter and then a follow up message in which she mentioned that her colleague would be in touch (I hadn’t responded to either message). The e-mail from the colleague was your typical, minimal, boring job description and under it was a “form” for my DOB, passport number, SSN, etc. I do believe this is a legit recruiting agency despite the request for very sensitive info.

    I’m not searching and would not consider dealing with a recruiter that asked for this info right off the bat. I was planning to just ignore both, but the first recruiter just pinged me wanting to know my thoughts on the job. Is it worth mentioning to her how reckless I consider asking someone to supply this info via e-mail and to company where isn’t any pre-existing relationship? I should mention that my job deals, in part, with computer security so I can’t imagine anyone in this career who takes the job seriously to ever consider e-mailing this info.

    I feel like the answer is that I’d just be wasting my time, but thought I’d throw this out to see if anyone had a different take.

    2. Kim Possible*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with mentioning how reckless you consider them asking for sensitive information is – it’s not like you’d be burning a bridge with them, since you’d never consider working with these recruiters, anyway.

      You could also just ignore it if you feel that it’s a waste of time, though.

      Either way, super shady/huge red flag on their part.

    3. ArtK*

      Absolutely tell the recruiter that the request is out of line. None of that information is necessary for the recruiting process. They can (and probably should) ask you about your status viz employment but that’s all. I don’t care how legitimate they seem, this is way, way, way out of line.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Yeah, this is the kind of information that can be used to steal your identity and not what you should be sending to them in an email. I would give them the benefit or the doubt and hope they are not using the information for nefarious purposes, but no. Just no. There are other ways for them to get this information and they don’t need it until they actually place you in a real job.

  125. Batshua*

    Last I heard, the union rep was making no progress in my situation.

    I bit the bullet and called my boss’s boss.

    I’m very nervous about whether or not this is going to achieve results, but he said he’d look into it and see if he could find a solution.

  126. not the most useful degree*

    Does anyone have suggestions for someone job searching with a Criminal Justice and Political Science BA degree?
    When I started school, I wanted to go into the police force, but I have become less enthused about that as time went on. After school, I could not find a related job. I’ve been working in a public service role for 2 years, the position does not require a degree or any specialized skillset. I will be relocating to join my partner in a new city soon, so I’m hoping to start a job search now before I move, so I will have something to go to when I leave my current job.
    What is making my search harder is that I don’t have any idea of what I’d really like to do. I don’t have a “dream job” or even a “want job.” I’m fine with my job now, but it does not pay well. My partner is encouraging me to find something where I am challenged and feel useful, which would be great, but I’ve just never thought of jobs in that way. I was raised thinking I would just do a job to pay the bills.
    How do I decide what type of job I’d actually like to do (that I am also qualified for)?
    And does anyone have personal experience or ideas on what careers are open to someone with my degree? I’m already aware of all the typical routes, but has anyone done something unconventional?

    1. katamia*

      Think about what is lacking in your current and past jobs. Do you want to feel like you’re making a difference/work with a certain type of population? Do you want something you can leave at the office every day so your time away from work can truly be your own? Do you want something where you can move around more or less than you do/have in the past? etc. etc.

      Your background might be good for a social studies teaching position. But there are SO many downsides to teaching that I recommend you do a lot of research before committing to teaching because it can be really rough. (Ex-teacher here who couldn’t handle it, and I had it easy compared to many because I taught adults and therefore didn’t have to deal with their parents/worries about eventually getting into college.)

    2. LQ*

      I know someone who has a similar set of degrees and who now manages a QA team for a statewide police department, for lack of a better word. She has no technical degrees or coding experience or any of that.

      I think looking for something that can go off what you do now and grow in a direction you like would be a good start. And just shifting to the mindset of job can be challenging is a big one. There’s plenty to be said for pays the bills too! A happy space between them is great.

    3. Michael Scarn, CPA*

      My brother ended up going to law school after getting his BA in Criminal Justice, but that’s probably not very unconventional.

  127. ms-dos efx*

    I applied for a position with a former employer who is very near and dear to my heart. Small nonprofit with a very familial atmosphere. I’ve stayed good friends with a lot of their staff over the years because my husband, who I met there, still works there on a different team from the one I applied for. The culture and the position are a great fit for me and everyone who knows about it seems to think I’m a shoe-in, but I can’t stop obsessing because it’s been two weeks and I haven’t been contacted for an interview yet. I know they’ve been super busy and I’m sure that’s why I haven’t heard back, but I still fight the urge to bug them about it.

    Every time I get tempted, I come here and browse old articles and read the comments on them instead, and it really helps scratch that itch! I don’t know what I’d do without AAM.

  128. Anonomatic Yo Yo*

    Does anyone have any advice for stopping a spiral into poor mindset/learned helplessness at work?

    Back story – about 4 years ago I left a job where I had a horrible micromanager of a boss who was pushy, always right, didn’t listen to me, and then threw me under the bus when I still managed to perform in spite of him (usually when I was allowed to go work with other teams/people and the one time I was allowed to do my own project). He was just an awful person, and in order to cope and not go insane (for three years) I adopted the tactic of disengagement because I wasn’t allowed to have an opinion, or to try and speak up and be shot down all the time.

    Now I am in a new job and while my first project when I started went great and I really came alive and knocked it out of the park, I have spent the last six miserable months on one project or another, stuck under the two bad micromanaging project managers on the team, one of whom is my line manager.

    I took this job because I needed the money and it doesn’t really fit with my career trajectory, interests, or goals, though it pays well. This time I have tried speaking up and having multiple Come to Jesuses with both of them, but my line manager doesn’t listen (and yesterday she took my key card off my desk to use without telling me, for two hours) and is extremely smothering, so I dont feel like I can go to her with my concerns. All the old habits have come back because it is churning up a lot of anxiety for me and now I am just angry, which is manifesting in Not Good Ways. I can see whats going on, I can feel it inside, Im sure others can tell, how do I stop this?

    TLDR: Got micromanagers, again, how do I stop the spiral into anger and disconnection?

  129. TV Researcher*

    So, this has been an incredibly difficult week at work. One of my co-workers/legit out of work friend passed away at the way too early age of 35. She’d been fighting cancer for two years and while her prognosis was never good, her passing happened quite suddenly.

    To make matters slightly worse, I’m also battling cancer, though I hasten to add, I have a much more positive prognosis. After going on leave for 5 weeks after major surgery, I’m now in treatment which for me means chemo week (where I work from home aside from chemo day) and then I’m back in the office for two weeks before chemo week happens again (though at slightly shorter hours – think 9-4:30/5 instead of 8:30-6 (or often times 7). This will be my life until mid-October.

    My problem is that even on my better days, concentrating on work was incredibly difficult and since my friend’s passing, it’s even more difficult. And I’m not sure how to fix it, aside from time. But, in the meantime, work still has to get done.

    I should also add that work has been great in letting me a) work from home (something that’s generally frowned upon) and b) work slightly modified hours.

    2. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your friend and it’s so hard to deal with difficult situations when you are in one as well. I’m working through some health stuff now so I totally understand not being able to concentrate at work as it’s hard to shut off your brain when you have something major like your health on your brain. You’re also adding grief in which I’m sure feels even more difficult. Two things that I find helpful are acknowledging my distraction and giving myself a bit of a break as sometimes you just have too much shit happening and your brain can’t process it all. If you can find something for a half hour or an hour that you can do that helps you self-care, it can make a big difference as it gives you a little time to regenerate. I just found Veronica Mars online so I’ve been watching an episode at night which is my time to shut my mind and phone off and just let myself relax. The other is creating small to-do lists as my memory is struggling currently and I’m getting overwhelmed by really long lists so I give myself five tasks a day that I need to complete. If I complete them all and can do more, that’s great but if not, I feel like I achieved something which always inspires me. Sending you lots of positive thoughts!

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Time and maybe grief counseling, if that’s something you’re open to — but mostly just time. I am so sorry for your loss.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, you have more than one grief going on here. No doubt in my mind that you would have trouble thinking straight.
        If counseling is not doable right now, perhaps you can check out a book or two on grief. Something that goes over the basics, why we grief, the symptoms of grief, all the different emotions we can feel in grief, etc. These books are not hard to read, you won’t feel worse and you may feel a tiny bit better having gained the words to describe all the stuff flying at you now.

        I am sorry for your loss and I will keep you in my thoughts as you face your own battles.

    5. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

      It took me several months to regain my powers of concentration after both my father died last summer (and my mother died two years before as well), and I think I’ve only now started to realize that the world doesn’t have to suck and be about struggling against time. But that’s a year later.

      If I were to suggest anything, it’d be to make sure you don’t go too hard on yourself, and give yourself time to get to a new equilibrium. And seconding therapy, if that’s at all possible.

      Good luck OP.

  130. Julia Gulia*

    I’m almost done with my Master’s and would prefer to hide the drama and angst of how much time and trouble it took to finish (got laid off twice, had to care for a dying parent, dropped out and re-enrolled, et cetera). Is it okay to only include the graduation date on resumes/Linked In/the like, or do most people expect to see both start and end dates?

    MS in Teapot Software, 2017
    BA in Teapot Graphics, 2001

    or

    MS in Teapot Software, 2005 to 2017
    BA in Teapot Graphics, 1997 to 2001

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      In reality most people probably don’t care how long it took. Just list the end dates.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Especially with Masters programs, where it’s really not uncommon for it to take longer than advertised, since lots of people complete their Masters part-time or take breaks or drag out their thesis. I list only completion dates for both my BS and MS degrees.

    5. Rincat*

      The only place where I put a “start date” is during an online application where you are forced to put something, and that is basically just for HR verification. I doubt anyone really cares when you started it – only that you finished.

  131. Sophie*

    I had a second interview yesterday for a job and the supervisor kept looking at his watch and at the end of the interview, announced that he was going to a “golf outing”. He then said the position was down to me and another candidate.

    1. fposte*

      Looking at his watch is annoying, but I don’t see the other two are big deals. Did you like what you learned about the job?

  132. Candy*

    Are there any library heads here? I’m curious what duties the head of a library, specifically a small university library, does. Scheduling? Reference help? Teaching?

    1. Cruciatus*

      I’m not a library head but ours at a small university library just retired and they are beginning interviews (note: I’m not a librarian, I’m library staff). So, ours did a little of all those things. Also dealt with the library budget big picture (pay for students and staff, supplies, work needed beyond normal maintenance). He didn’t do the actual purchasing of supplies, but he had to OK some things through university policy. He was the big boss of the library, head administrator basically, followed by my own direct supervisor. He mostly dealt with the reference librarians though (and my supervisor works with staff). Though he was still everyone’s boss overall. He also purchased/weeded library books for a particular section, reference and instruction work, and since we don’t work at main campus he was the liaison between the two. Basically he knew every aspect of the library, though jobs were delegated to my supervisor, reference librarians, and staff.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Also not head of a library, but here’s what I’ve observed- this depends so much on the size of the library. I would consider our library small (and we fit the ALA description). Our Dean does no reference work and she does not teach. Instead, she deals with budgets, supervises department heads who supervise departments and makes some really hard calls about collection development. I would not want to be her, but I respect her very much. We have a staff of 13 librarians and about 7 staff.

  133. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Can someone tell me whether or not I’m crazy? Gonna keep things vague and switch up a few details to avoid blowing up my spot in case any coworkers read here.

    So I have this one coworker on my team, “Mary.” She’s been with the department forever, in various support roles, and is incredibly stubborn and resistant to any kind of change. She has not been willing to learn how to do the role she’s currently in. She was transferred to the team at the same time I started, which was a few years ago, and it was her first role of the kind, so she didn’t have a strong skills base to really hit the ground running… but it’s been years, and her core competencies are still very much lacking. Our team is very small relative to our overall department, so this doesn’t exactly make me happy, but I’m usually pretty good at sucking it up and rolling with it. It was not my boss’s decision to hire Mary, but my boss doesn’t want to rock the boat too much. Basically, Mary doesn’t want to improve, and she isn’t going anywhere until she decides to retire.

    Performance issues aside, Mary is also a bigot and has gotten a few Talkings-To about what is and is not appropriate to say at work, but she hasn’t changed. Generally, people don’t really take her seriously because she’s older. A slap on the wrist is the worst she’s ever gotten. When I say she’s said horrible things I mean HORRIBLE things. The first time I witnessed it, I had just started, and I regret not going to HR when it happened. I didn’t do anything because it was my first big-kid job and I was so afraid of being mean to the “sweet grandmother” everyone else seemed so willing to ignore.

    So, anyway, recently she became aware of a constituent who is in an important role in a well-known company. Normally she would notify internal stakeholders that this is someone to connect with. But she found out that this company has a policy of working with Syrian refugees. She felt this was a problem. There are a bunch of alt-right websites that “expose” this company’s policy and accuse the company of being responsible for crime sprees and disease (#fakenews) and she found those. What’s killing me is she TOLD MY BOSS, who knows better, and my boss didn’t listen closely enough to what she was saying, and she told her it was fine to drop it. It was NOT FINE for two reasons: 1) this constituent is someone that people at my company should be aware of, 2) her reason for dropping it was racism, and an inability to discern good information from alt-right conspiracy bullshit. Information literacy is critical to our job. The fact that anti-Muslim bigotry (because I guarantee she does not understand that not all Syrians are Muslims, and that even if they were, being a Muslim is not a friggin’ bad thing) drove this decision, AND THAT MY BOSS ALLOWED IT, makes me see red.

    Our employer is very strongly and publicly committed to global citizenship, we are a diverse department, and we have a thriving international constituency. It is disturbing to me that my boss did not question why Syrian employees would strike Mary as problematic. In retrospect my boss once said something offhandedly about this company that I thought was bizarre but didn’t question, but now I realize it was because she heard about the company from Mary and took her at her word without understanding what she was actually saying. She just didn’t even ask questions.

    So, I don’t want to burn my boss, but I’m really upset with her. She knows she screwed up here, but she has a pattern of enabling Mary because she doesn’t want to be mean to her. I keep thinking that this was so over the line of what is appropriate that it might warrant a talk with someone else. I don’t want to tattle, but it’s REALLY bothering me. I told my boss that I was upset about it and she was like “well, you found the person too and you got him on the radar, so it all worked out” but that’s kind of… not the point? I shouldn’t have had to catch Mary’s dropped ball, and besides, it wasn’t an honest mistake on her part, it was a choice. Going to the grandboss or to HR seems extreme, but Mary’s garbage attitude and garbage work have been enabled for years and I’m supposed to just… keep going with it? Nobody wants to hurt Mary’s feelings but like, hell, what about MY feelings? Why do I have to be relentlessly professional (and I am) when Mary’s awfulness gets a pass because “that’s just how she is”? It is horrible and demoralizing to hear her be a generally awful person, and doubly so when her seat could be taken by someone who isn’t a jerk. But like, if bringing it up is the right thing to do, is it too late? Will I be seen as dramatic and bullying if I complain about the grandmother who “doesn’t know any better”? Will people question why I waited to bring it up, if it’s such an issue?

    I apologize if this story is not clear or coherent but I need to get this out somewhere and maybe get a little feedback about what I should do since my boss (with whom I have an otherwise good relationship, and who trusts me, which makes me reticent to bring it to grandboss) wants to leave it behind. I’m feeling kind of stuck and helpless here. So, if you made it through this novel, thanks much.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think the issue with the company sounds like it has been resolved, even if it should have never happened. But it sounds like Mary says terrible things all the time – that’s what I’d focus on. The next time she says something, go to your boss and say “look, Mary said this. As you know this is a violation of our company’s commitment to global citizenship, and these comments put us at real risk of EEO complaints. This has been going on a while. You recall we almost got into trouble because Mary didn’t want to work with a company that assisted Syrian refugees. Mary is going to get us in more trouble if this continues. I trust you to handle it but I’m not willing to listen to her bigoted comments any longer.”

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Thank you. The problem is that I’ve said something, time and time again, but there are never any actual consequences. I think people are reticent to criticize too harshly because she’s older and meek and people fret about her feelings. She can be very grandmotherly – giving crochet lessons, showing pictures of her grandchildren, fawning over people who are expecting in the office, etc. I’m also fairly sure my boss won’t say anything unless she knows I’m annoyed. The only minor blessing is that we’re in an operations role, not a constituent-facing one, so it’s only Mary’s colleagues who hear her comments (lucky us). I actually no longer do trust my boss to handle it, so I’m at a bit of a loss. I think I do need to speak to grandboss about the situation, unfortunately. I’m not sure how much she realizes this goes on. I really appreciate your suggested language and will pinch some of it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          She’s an adult.
          She is in the role that would be occupied by a competent adult, so it’s fair to say that she is assumed to be a competent adult.

          I am old enough to be a grandmother, and if people treated me like this I think I would need to go wander off in the woods somewhere. The attitude towards her is terrible. Don’t upset her? wth. Why are they treating her like she is so fragile?

          I guess I would ask, “If her behavior is A-Okay, then everyone can behave this way and it’s alright, right?”

          If she cannot get a handle on these behaviors then she is a liability to the company, period.

          1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

            Thank you, this is also my feeling. My own grandmother is almost 20 years older than her and would never behave the way Mary does, so I find this attitude patronizing and unacceptable. But my boss once commented that it was “cute” how much Mary likes to see me and my coworker who is my age, so, that’s the attitude and that’s why I’m afraid of blowback.

        2. BuildMeUp*

          I definitely think it’s time to take it up the ladder, whether it be to your grandboss or to HR. Given the way your boss has handled Mary in the past, I think it’s very likely that no one above her is aware of the issue, or at least aware of how much of an issue it is.

    2. Marillenbaum*

      Moving this up the chain of command is not extreme–it is necessary. Mary is racist and bad at her job; if she continues directing her bigotry at constituents, it’s a question of when, not if, she exposes your office to a lawsuit.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        Thank you. I think I already knew that talking to grandboss was the right thing to do, but it’s a little scary, so I appreciate this.

        1. Zip Zap*

          It is scary. But I think they’ll appreciate that you took this issue seriously despite the obvious risks. Stick to the facts and present it in a way that doesn’t sound too personal.

  134. Seren*

    I’m at a crossroads in my job search. I’m hoping to switch industries to data analysis, but my only exp is a couple projects in my past two jobs. I’ve been applying internally for analyst jobs with my manager’s approval for the past couple months, thinking the known quantity piece would help me, but so far I’ve had no bites. Do I start applying externally and will I have any luck landing an analyst role with no titled exp?

    1. Michael Scarn, CPA*

      I think this is where a good cover letter comes into play. Whenever my company posts jobs, people rarely send cover letters. I get excited when I see them, but they’re usually more like form letters that don’t provide any real information about the candidates. If there’s a cover letter, I read it before I look at the resume.

  135. Former Asker*

    Hey guys.
    I sent in a letter a few weeks ago about a coworker who was giving me her daughter’s things after her daughter passed away. I have an update, but it’s an upsetting one, so I’m not sure of whether I should send it in to be published. I know a lot of bereaved parents commented and related very strongly to the coworker I was discussing in the letter and so I just don’t know if it’s appropriate to pass along a letter that is certain to be disheartening. Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think you should. One, because I’m curious. Two, because learning to navigate awkward work situations is what we do!

      As long as Alison gives it an appropriate title and maybe some tee-up language, people should know what they’re getting into.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Exactly my thoughts. I am very curious.

        And if Alison receives it and believes it would just be too upsetting, she can choose not to run it.

      2. Foreign Octopus*

        I agree with Katie. I’m also curious but Alison is a good judge of what’s appropriate and what’s not.

        I’m sorry to hear that it’s upsetting though. I hope you’re okay.

    2. Temperance*

      I think you should send it in to Alison. She can choose to run it or not, as she sees fit.

      I’m really sorry to hear that things did not work out very well.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Do it. Not every update is a good one, but we still like to hear from people, and you may get some more insight (if you want it).

    4. fposte*

      Oh, no, I’m really sorry. I agree with passing it on to Alison and letting her weigh in.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m sorry that things didn’t work out well, but I definitely think you should send the update to Alison.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Even if it is disheartening, we AAMers would like a chance to learn from this. At the very least, we can offer moral support and internet hugs. And, maybe our collective insight and wisdom can help.

  136. ConfusedAcademic*

    A few weeks ago, I posted a question about contacting the Dean (my director’s boss) about my tenure chances. Short version: I don’t trust that my director will give me a fair shake, so I wondered if I should take these concerns to his boss. But in an unrelated conversation with the Dean, my tenure came up and he was so confident that there would be no problems. I decided to take that at face value and not stir the pot. Thanks to those who replied.

    I’m submitting my abbreviated tenure dossier today (the full package is due in October). Now I just wait for months to hear everyone’s evaluation.

  137. Lemon Zinger*

    This week I got great news that everyone’s least favorite coworker is leaving sometime this month! Hooray!

    1. Rincat*

      Yay!!! That Coworker was one of the reasons I left my old job (among many, many other things). Oh, how often did I fantasize that he would just quit one day….joke’s on him though, I’m in a much better place. I hope your workplace morale/energy/general vibe is greatly improved!

  138. ArtK*

    The following showed up on my LinkedIn feed. Because of the way that it was set up, it looked at first like a young woman calling out people for cyber bullying — something that happens far, far too often. Then I read her “defense” of herself and began to wonder if some of the “bullying” wasn’t legitimate criticism that she wasn’t prepared to deal with. Note that she identifies herself in her profile as an intern in “talent search.”

    oday I was bullied on LinkedIn because of my age & someone’s assumption about my lack of experience & professionalism.
    Let me tell you a little about myself:
    -I graduated high school with a 3.97 GPA. I was cheerleading captain, dance captain, & National Honor Society president.
    -I took classes at the University of Pennsylvania for 3 semesters while in 11 and 12 grade finishing the program with a 3.2 GPA
    -I started a dance team my very 1st semester in college & we are now widely known throughout the university.
    -I am graduating a semester early with my Bachelors & also am able to have a minor
    -I have worked since I was 14 which has allowed me to pay most of my way through college
    -I am currently working as an intern at a wonderful company in Philadelphia & they felt I was doing such a great job they asked to retain me for the summer

    I am 21 years old. I understand I am young. But please do not make assumptions that just because I am younger than you that I am unprofessional and have no idea what the “real world” is like. I put myself through college from working hard since I was 14. I have been working IN the real world since January so I have an idea what the real world is like.

    Please use LinkedIn for its intended purpose.

    I was trying to think what I would say to her, if I were her internship supervisor. I’d probably point out that while cheerleading is a wonderful thing (I’ve done spirit stuff myself, way way back in the day), but it’s not any kind of an indicator of professionalism or maturity. People are very likely to dismiss it as trivial, no matter how much effort goes into the activity. I’d also point out that working in the real world “since January” isn’t a whole lot of experience; a whopping 6 months and it sounds like some of the lessons are lost on her.

    Thoughts?

    1. Marillenbaum*

      First off, she needs to understand that no one cares about what you did in high school. Literally no one. A lot of the other stuff doesn’t matter either–the UPenn stuff was in high school (and at the risk of being an awful snob, a 3.2 isn’t actually impressive. It’s competent.) Having a minor? Not a special achievement; you just list it if it’s relevant to the application. Really, it all just reads as being immature and a bit clueless.

      1. Rincat*

        I mean…doesn’t everyone have a minor? I thought that was a requirement of pretty much all bachelor degrees. I could be wrong though.

        1. Stellaaaaa*

          I would guess that most people (as in, more than 50%) of people with BAs do not have minors. I didn’t have one. I don’t think most colleges require them. Maybe yours did? I know that my college required internships as a graduation requirement, which not all schools do.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          In my field (engineering), degrees do not have enough room for a minor because there are so many major-required hours dictated. You can get one, but it’s not mandatory, and you probably end up with a lot of extra hours for a BS.

        3. Red Reader*

          I don’t — I didn’t have enough electives grouped in a particular area to make it. (I was hoping for a minor in history, but I was one class short.)

        4. T3k*

          Yeah, I guess it depends on one’s major. My major in college, almost everyone got a business minor because our curriculum had us take a lot of business classes as secondary to our main focus. I ended up graduating a year later than planned so I ended up doing a second minor on top of it. On the other hand, I was friends with someone who double majored and I always wondered how he did that.

          1. Rincat*

            Thanks for your comments, everyone! I truly did not realize that some programs don’t have minors. And I’ve been working in higher ed for 10+ years! (in IT, not anything academic!)

        5. ArtK*

          Not in my experience. Some do, some don’t. I had a double major, mathematics & computer science so no room for a minor.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh, I saw this too, and I was chatting with some coworkers about this this morning.

      I graduated college when I was 21, with a two-year old and a husband in tow, so on one hand I understand the struggle to be taken seriously as a young adult, but on the other hand, my husband and I were financially independent from our parents and raising a child through school so I scoff at “started a dance team.”

      All I could think is this is just something only a young, privileged person could write, and she will cringe looking back on this in 5-10 years. If I were her supervisor, I would advise her to recognize her youth and inexperience, and to leverage it. People will help you when you are 20, and will forgive you for not knowing something, in a way they won’t when you are 30. I would also encourage her to get out of her bubble and see what the real world looks like for others. I get it–she’s worked since she was 14, but I also got the sense she didn’t understand the difference between having to work at 14 to save for college and putting a roof over your head as a 14 year old, which some kids have to do. Or watching a parent die, or a sibling succumb to drugs, or any number of different maturing life events other folks go through. I would also point out that this rant was an indication of lack of professionalism and maturity.

      It hurt my head a lot to read that.

      1. ArtK*

        Yes. It was the *perfect* way to prove her critics right. The lack of self-awareness was amazing.

      2. Rincat*

        Yep, I’ve been working since I was 14, but they were ~10 hours a week temp jobs where my most difficult challenges included filing and not falling asleep at my desk.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d like to tell her that the more you write about dance, the less likely it is people are going to consider you a mature professional who knows what the “real world” is like.

      (Unless, of course, you’re a professional dancer.)

      1. Snark*

        Defending yourself from charges of being immature and unprofessional with “BUT I WAS THE DANCE TEAM CAPTAIN IN HIGH SCHOOL” is maybe not a winning strategy. Nobody cares about what you did in high school past, roughly, the first few weeks of your freshman year of college, and everybody’s all like “Oh hey, you went to high school and I went to high school and we have so much in common lets be besties forever!”

    5. Confused Teapot Maker*

      I’m not sure if I’ve missed something here but do we have any idea what’s actually been said to her or what she thinks the bullying consists of? Because, if not, I would just leave it. I mean, imagine if you waded in with something like ‘Actually, you need to grow up and realise you’re not an adult because of what you did in high school’ and it turned out she’d been getting some truly hideous private messages?

      So, I guess if I were her internship supervisor, I would figure out what actually triggered the rant to begin with before I gave her two cents about how she came across.

      1. ArtK*

        I didn’t see the earlier remarks and as I commented, the way I first saw the post I would have been happy to assume that they were bullying. But her response undermined that possibility almost entirely. She said that she was “bullied” about being immature and inexperienced and then she went right on to demonstrate exactly *how* immature and inexperienced she really was. Could there have been some nasty bullying? Sure. My feeling now is that it was (mostly) valid criticism that she was unprepared to accept and responded as if she were being bullied. It’s a sad fact of life that many people (and the number is increasing) take any criticism as an “attack.”

        If her response had been in the least bit mature, I would be giving her the benefit of the doubt.

        1. Confused Teapot Maker*

          Her comment doesn’t ‘undermine’ her to me, not without knowing what was originally said. It’s definitely not the most mature rant in the universe and I agree that there’s the good possibility that somebody could have shot her some valid criticism that she’s now throwing a tizzy about BUT I could also see somebody firing off this in the heat of the moment if she had been legitimately bullied.

    6. SeptemberGrrl*

      I saw that to and unfortunately thought “What as asshole” and then more charitably, “Ok she’s young”. I *LOATHE* the way people throw the word “bully” around when they mean “Someone said something about me that I didn’t like”. I hope she has someone in her life who will tell her how juvenile and defensive and out-of-touch her post was. When I see things like that, it makes me so happy to have gotten out of my 20s before social media took over the world.

    7. Foreign Octopus*

      I don’t want to minimise cyber bullying and its effects in anyway so I won’t comment on that aspect of it.

      A general observation though (and if this reads as offensive, which I hope it doesn’t, please do delete this comment) is that this seems like the kind of thing a poor careers’ centre might advise. We’ve all seen examples of gimmicks in CVs and applications, do you think that this is something that she might have been advised was a good idea? Sort of as a way of advertising herself in a unique manner?

      It might be the way that I’m reading it but it just reads like an advert of herself.

  139. DG*

    Anyone want to share stories of a time when they either dropped the ball or screwed something up? I made a major mistake at work and it’s killing me, because I really just should have communicated better and it would have been avoided.

    I feel like the world is ending. Though, logically, I know it’s not… help me feel better? Please?

    1. BeezLouise*

      I find it helpful to look mistakes from a larger picture view. Will it matter in ten minutes? In ten days? In ten weeks? Etc. This usually helps me realize that the mistake won’t matter after a few days (or weeks!).

      But honestly, everyone makes mistakes. The most important thing is to take full responsibility (if appropriate), and have a plan for making sure this particular mistake never happens again. I also look at mistakes as a learning moment! Especially if you’re able to fix it/learn from it, it can make a great interview answer for a future job.

      Hang in there.

    2. Emm*

      Ever heard the one about the assistant who sent her boss to Naples, Italy instead of Naples, Florida?

    3. Sadsack*

      You should search the archives! It seems like a couple of times a year, someone asks this same question. I asked it myself once.

      If it makes you feel any better, I cannot recall what my big terrible mistake was that I wrote in about, so there you go. Hopefully, you won’t recall yours was a year from now!

    4. Airedale*

      My old boss was supposed to go to two conferences in a month to promote our company at a booth. I messed up the shipping and she was left at one conference without any promotional materials. She later told me that she admired the way I dealt with it because she could tell I “cared” (unlike previous employees, she said) and did my best to address my mistake. I’m sure if you’re writing this that you’re the same!

      Also, when I make a mistake I like to remember the part on Girlfriend’s Guide to Divorce when a designer clothing company produced thousands of men’s shirts with the front pocket sewn on upside down : )

      Finally one less-fun example – my friend was at a big company that didn’t manage its employees salaries properly, had a budget crisis, and eventually had to have mass layoffs. I’m sure your mistake was small compared to that.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      My friend organised an office move and forgot to book any movers.

      He still works there and nobody killed him.

    7. NaoNao*

      Last week I left my work computer on a bench at the train station. It was one of 3 (!!) machines I have for work and it was older, a backup machine but I about cried when I realized it.
      My boss was super nice and noted “these things happen”, but she had to give me a written notice to sign saying I wouldn’t do it again and if I did there would be serious consequences.
      So now I’m super paranoid about my other laptop, gah!
      But honestly, this company has a bit of a rep for letting people go on the slightest thing, and thank goodness they were okay with it.
      My boss said offhandedly, “My boss asked me if there was anything else of concern with this person and I said “Absolutely not!” which was nice to hear. :)

  140. Bell1834*

    Any advice on getting an entry-level job?

    I have work experience in 3 internships (all unpaid, mostly did data entry) plus some slight paid writing work. I have a degree in English from a very prestigious university. Yet I can’t seem to find any entry-level opportunities anywhere.

    I’ve taken all the standard career advice about resumes, cover letters, references. I’ve talked to my previous managers about my job search, but I haven’t gotten much luck that way.

    I’ve mostly been searching in NYC and Atlanta.

    Are there any particular industries/companies/avenues that would be good for me?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Help us narrow it down a little more. Can you tell us a little bit more about your skills and what kinds of jobs you’ve been applying to and what you think you’d be good at and/or enjoy?

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      Take a risk and apply for jobs that are in your field but are only one step out of reach. My experience (especially lately) is that employers who use craigslist and the like aren’t really looking for people with degrees and a decent resume.

    3. AMT*

      NYC-er here. Any interest in publishing? It’s a little tough to break in, but my wife has been having trouble finding good candidates for an editorial assistant position lately, so maybe some areas (academic publishing) are easier than others.

    4. Airedale*

      I had a Communications degree and four unpaid internships and had a hell of a time finding a first job, so I feel your pain. I ended up in the higher education field by taking a temp-to-hire job at a large university. There are normally lots of office positions in various student services roles available. If you’re interested, try searching for temp jobs at universities in the cities you’re looking at.

    5. Historiker*

      I graduated with a History degree from an Ivy League institution in 2014. It was tough because I had no interest in or experience in consulting or finance, which seem to draw most grads from most fields these days, when considering prestigious schools.

      I would recommend higher education administration: it doesn’t pay well but benefits are great for the most part. The hardest part is that it makes disconnecting from college/academia and entering the real world a bit tougher. You might also consider some educational programs like Teach for America or City Year, perhaps attempting a fellowship application for work or study overseas, like a Fulbright grant, or even teaching English as a foreign language.

      Publishing or journalism might work, but it is hard to break in without connection or experience and often the low pay is hard to navigate with student loans or NYC level rents.

      If you aren’t adverse to further education, you could choose to enroll in a grad program or even a coding bootcamp to gain skills to apply to fields in tech and software dev.

  141. Amber Rose*

    My boss is renovating. It’s just knocking out some walls to make bigger shared offices for now, but I know he wants to completely reconfigure the cube area where I sit as well. As it is all the people who’s offices are being wrecked have set up their desks in the lunch room, where they’ll be for around 3 weeks, leeching off my power supply and forcing us all to eat at our desks. I don’t like change. :[

    I can’t focus worth a damn today despite my workload, so I volunteered for a monotonous task (sticking labels on 1000 individual items) as a way of avoiding getting paid to stare blankly at a spreadsheet or something. I’m not doing my job, exactly, but I’m not doing nothing either.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Different situation because mine isn’t based on construction, but even as a senior manager, I take breaks from my “real” work when my depression is threatening to act up and do data entry or something else mindless but productive.

  142. BeezLouise*

    I had a really amazing phone interview earlier this week. I think it is likely I will get an in-person interview. Here’s my issue — I’m almost seven months pregnant, which of course they don’t know yet, because phone interview. I will clearly bring it up in my person interview, but given how hiring timelines work (they told me in person interviews would be middle to end of August, and they hope to extend an offer early September; I’m due middle of October but I have to give a month’s notice, which they do know, since this would essentially be an internal move, from one college to another at a university).

    If the time comes, do I try and push for a shorter leave with my current boss so I could start my new job before maternity leave? Do I just try and negotiate a start date after my maternity leave? What’s the most fair?

    1. LQ*

      I don’t know if this helps at all, but I know we had someone hired at my last position who was hired at 8 months pregnant, worked for about 2 weeks, basically long enough to fill out the paperwork and get fully set up before she went on maternity leave.

  143. Jessen*

    Small question: how do you get over the feeling of dread when your manager wants to meet with you? I was working myself up over the last time wondering what I did. Turned out she liked a suggestion I’d made at the last meeting and wanted to get a few more details on it before she sent it out as a new policy.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I don’t know that you do! I’m a manager and I still get that way when my boss wants to meet with me.

    2. afiendishthingy*

      How about making a list of the topics that have been covered on previous occasions when your manager has asked to meet with you? How many times has it been something good? How many times has it been neutral? How many times mild corrective feedback? How many times has it been “Well you screwed the pooch on this one”?

  144. Sally Sparrow*

    I just had a work epiphany – I think – about how dysfunctional my department is. It finally sunk in that I think everyone is talking about everyone else. On the surface they are professional to each other, but if Jane has a conflict with George, then next time I go and talk to Jane, she will tell me she doesn’t understand George. Meanwhile, the next time I talk with George he will tell me how I need to be careful what I say to Jane. It just makes me wonder now what they are saying about me.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Yeah, if someone gossips to you about someone else, there’s a strong chance they’re doing the same about you. It’s frustrating as hell but at least you’ve caught it so you can watch what you say.

      Also, I love your user name!

  145. Jessie*

    Holy Moses, people, check your acronyms before e-mailing! “That gave me ASMR” does NOT equal “That gave me MRSA!”

  146. Two body problem*

    I am moving for my boyfriend’s job soon and I’m looking for a new job in our new city. Is there a good way to explain the move that doesn’t make it look like my career comes second to his? Also, does it come across differently because he is my boyfriend and not my fiance or husband? We are planning to get married, but haven’t done anything “official” yet.

      1. Jennifer Walters*

        I agree with this. I used partner when I was sending out cover letters to my new city. I was also very vague, just saying “I am moving to City on this date in order to join my partner and am looking forward to the new opportunities it brings.”

    2. anon for this*

      Just say you want to re-locate to the city. You don’t even have to mention a partner, but you can mention you have family in the area. I always considered my now-husband “family” even when he was technically my boyfriend.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “We decided we wanted to move to X.” I mean, you did, even if the major contributing factor was his job.

      “I decided to move to X for family reasons.”

      Also, as far as I’m concerned, “planning to get married” means you can call him your fiance. I mean, what is a fiance other than someone you have agreed to marry?

    4. Airedale*

      When I did this, I didn’t mention him, and said that I was moving for all of the great [my industry] opportunities in the city. Which was also true.

  147. Stellaaaaa*

    For your current job, how long was the wait between submitting your application and getting the interview call/email? Can you also tell me what field you’re in? I need a better sense of norms about this.

    1. Bea W*

      Current looking in Pharma/Biotech in MA and currently seeing wait times on responses to initials apps anywhere from a couple days to a couple weeks, many companies moving very rapidly to compete for a limited candidate pool. I’ve completed app submission to phone screen within a matter of days, but norm seems to be 1-2 weeks total.

      A couple companies I’ve submitted right when the jobs were posted, and those I’ve had longer waits of a couple of weeks on as companies tend to wait to see how many applications come in.

      This is the fasted moving market I have ever experienced when job hunting. It’s not really normal. I can’t recall in previous searches anyone taking less than a week or 2 to respond to an application. I typically expected about 2 weeks for the initial email/call, sometimes longer.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      My last job search focused on corporate event planning roles, so I was interested in any industry so long as my primary function would be event/meeting planning. So this ranged from finance to insurance to consulting to fashion to entertainment. (It was an exhaustive and exhausting search.)

      Generally I got interview interest from finance, insurance, and consulting firms. Most of them took at least two weeks to get to me; some took two months.

    3. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      I temp. The agency cold called me and then submitted my resume. I had an interview 3-4 days later. (The rest of the process took much longer than it should have, but between applying and interviewing was very short.)

    4. Rincat*

      I work for a large state university and it’s all over the place. For my current job, my manager called me within about a week of my application, and I had a phone interview. He’s been really good with moving things along and keeping his word on getting back to people (we’re hiring for other spots as well), because he doesn’t want to miss out on good hires. However my last manager – he’d wait and wait until the posting was closed, and THEN he’d screen people and do interviews. And was super slow in his response times and making decisions.

      I worked in a para-IT department previously, and am now full-fledged IT. But higher ed in general is like my old manager – as in SLOW.

    5. periwinkle*

      My husband recently started a job search. He’s in IT and just had his first interview with a Fortune 50 company, who contacted him less than a week after he submitted his online application.

      I’m in HR development (in a very general sense). I currently work for a different Fortune 50 company. My wait between submitting the online application and being contacted for the first interview was 15 weeks with two more interviews and then a job offer made 7 weeks after the first interview. I started that job six months after applying for it.

      Hiring Time does not exist in the same dimension as Normal Time.

      1. Stellaaaaa*

        Haha it’s so maddening! I’ve had a few situations where companies have proactively asked for my resume and I still didn’t get a call for 2 weeks. It’s disheartening to learn that I’ve been spoiled by those experiences.

    6. CAA*

      For my current job, it was less than a week from me submitting my resume to getting an offer. I’m in tech. This was very unusual though. It just happened that this company had an opening for a position that I was pretty much perfect for, and they were getting so desperate to fill it they were considering splitting it across two or three positions and restructuring several jobs; and then they got my resume and brought me in for an interview and we all got along so well, it just felt like my kind of place right off. That has never, ever happened to me before and it was a little like getting hit by lightning.

      Other jobs have taken anywhere from 3 weeks to 8 months between application and follow-up. On the hiring side, I’ve called people anywhere from the same day to 6 months after they’ve applied, because we actually do keep resumes on file as we say we will and I always search those first before posting new opening. It’s rare for someone to still be available that many months later, but it only takes 5 minutes to leave a message and every once in a while it pays off.

    7. Julianne*

      I’m in education (K-12), and this was in 2015. I applied in March, had a phone screen and first in-person interview in mid-June, second interview in late June, verbal offer first week of August, written offer the following week. (In-person interviews were for a different position than the one they ultimately offered me, but this has worked out – I have been much more successful in this position than I think I would have been in the one they originally wanted me for. In my experience, this is not entirely out of the norm for education.)

  148. Incognito*

    It is my last week at my current job! I have such a long to-do list, but all of my time has been taken up with meetings and training people. I am afraid I may have to just dump all my files somewhere and let someone else figure it out. I hate to do that.

    I had a couple of interviews this week. One I really felt a good connection to the team and felt like their personalities and style were well suited to my own, and the other I feel like I was not a great fit for their needs, which include someone who can function normally in meetings that take place at odd times like 5 and 6 AM and can tolerate one-off changes in start schedule. I physically and mentally cannot handle this, not even if I did not have to come to the office.

    There are some other things being loaded into the pipe. I am exhausted and looking forward to getting back on a regular sleep schedule starting the day after I leave. The last couple weeks have had 2-3 days of meetings each starting between 6-8 AM. I’ve maybe had 1 good nights’ sleep. I feel like total crap.

  149. Me - Blargh!*

    So the law enforcement job sent me a rejection letter. Pfffft. I would have liked that job, even though I kind of didn’t want another administrative position on my resume.

    On Tuesday, I had an interview for a proofreader position at an ad agency here. I would like the job, I think, but I’ve never worked for an ad agency. It’s a “new” position; it was part-time, and they were using freelancers, but then they were bought by a larger agency in an eastern state, which also added a Chicago office to its stable. The job would be proofreading for all three offices. Plus it’s salaried, which means no overtime. For $30-33K. :{

    Gah! A friend was like, “Get ready to work your ass off.”

    I’m new to the industry, but I have four years’ experience already editing technical software reports. I let her know what amount I was looking for ($34-37, which is close to what I was making before). If it were only for this office that would be one thing, but am I stupid to think their salary is way too low? When I left Exjob, I was making $37K and that was an admin job. This is NOT an admin job and it carries a lot more responsibility as far as accuracy, etc. because they do a lot of print work. She said vaguely that she might be able to see about that.

    I know she was interested in me, because she called me about this job three times (once when I applied, when it was still part time, once while they were being acquired, to make sure I was still interested, and again when they knew for sure it was full-time). The question now is–will she decide I’m worth it? The goddamn office is REALLY REALLY NICE; surely they can afford to pay more. Oh, and they have not reposted the job, either.

    Oh, and when I was leaving, another appointment had showed up, and as she was letting me out, she said, “Oh that’s for X position [not the one I interviewed for]. I’m doing a bunch of hiring,” as though she were trying to reassure me.

    If they offer and they can meet my expectations somewhat, I will take it. The job could open doors elsewhere, so it would be worth it IF I can get close to my previous salary. I want to save my ass off, and then BAIL. I sent a thank-you note when I got home reiterating my interest and I didn’t mention the salary in the email. She told me before I left that they would make a decision next week.

    Off-topic, but I went to Alamo Drafthouse on Wednesday and saw Dunkirk (I had a reward for a free pizza). It was really well done. Daytime films when everybody is working are the greatest. Just a bit of self-care, there. :)

    2. Rincat*

      I hope it works out for you! And yes, daytime movies are great. I went to see Wonder Woman on a Sunday morning and it was sooo empty so I got the perfect seat, and the ticket was only $5. Also Alamo Drafthouse + free pizza = WINNING.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        That’s usually when I go–the first show on Sunday is always empty because everybody is still in church. Or just getting out of church. Or just getting out of bed, LOL.

        Anyway, you should go see Dunkirk IN the theater. The cinematography is breathtaking.

  150. Angry Cephalopod*

    Warning: this is mostly a long vent. My boss is driving me INSANE to the point where I fantasize about quitting on the spot after every interaction. (Obviously I won’t, and I am job searching).

    The last straw was him messing with my intern, who he told me to hire, train, and supervise. I had a whole training plan lined up, and two hours into the intern’s first day, he gives Intern a gigantic task. Intern barely knows where the mail room is at this point. Did I mention that it’s Intern’s first position in our field?

    I manage to work through that, but ever since, Boss will randomly come in to Intern’s cube, assign him (unnecessary) work or tell him to work on something totally different (and lower-priority than what he’s working on). I can feel my blood pressure rise every time I see Boss walk towards Intern’s cube. This is after I told Boss that this was disrupting my workflow and plan, and Boss swearing hands-down that Intern was be 100% mine to manage. Sometimes I’ll come in in the morning and learn that Boss has given Intern a random task without telling me.

    This is also after Boss tried to totally change Intern’s job (think: Intern was hired to make chocolate teapots and Boss says totally randomly in a team meeting “Oh, I was thinking we could use [random service] to make all of our chocolate teapots now!” Like, what?)

    This is on top of a billion other things, but I just need some confirmation that this is actually really irritating and not just me being crotchety. For context, Boss runs overall strategy and Intern and I work on a very specific part of that team. For example, Boss is in charge of the entire teapot division and I work largely independently with other teams to make chocolate teapots. I manage my own workload, occasionally pitching in on other general teapot projects if necessary.

    2. Confused Teapot Maker*

      It’s not just you – this is really irritating. If you can, I would pull your boss to one side on last time and ask him to lay out what he actually expects you to do with the intern, potentially even saying something along the lines of ‘You’ve told me that I’ll be 100% in charge of the intern but I’ve noticed on several situations you’ve given them different work to do. I actually had a training programme all worked out which I believe will not only help them develop but also help them perform well here. Would it help if I shared it with you?’

      At the moment, boss is telling you one thing and then doing another. That’s not good.

  151. Fishcakes*

    I just need to grouch, because I’m frustrated.
    The same pattern keeps happening at work. I will do a task related to a normal duty of my job. (For example, imagine fixing broken links on a website that I’ve been charged with maintaining.) I tell my boss, since she wants to know everything that I do, who says nothing about it. Weeks later, I will be copied on an e-mail from my boss to a lower lever boss, stating that “Sansa” is supposed to fix broken links, not Fishcakes. I had no idea that the task was Sansa’s responsibility, because all of these tasks are things that fall outside of Sansa’s normal duties, but fit into mine.

    Sansa is at the same level as I am, considers me a rival, and is kind of incompetent. (Usually the reason that I had to do the task in the first place is because it was either never done, or done incorrectly.) I HATE it when this happens, because it just increases tension between Sansa and me. My manager has also straight up taken half-finished new projects from me and assigned them to Sansa… and then they aren’t ever finished.

    I’ve never worked in an environment quite like this before.

  152. Shellesbelles*

    How would others here define a “collaborative” work environment? What does good collaboration look like to you?

    Some context: I’m in a workplace that places a high value on collaboration, to the point where I think it adversely effects the work. No one is allowed to really own a specific task or operate with autonomy. Basically, everything is done by committee, including writing, design, development, etc. I’m the executor/creator on most things, so this makes my job very difficult and can put us in an endless feedback loop. Is there a way I can honour their need for input while still getting things done well and on time? Is there a way to better assert myself so that the work doesn’t suffer? The other issue is that this isn’t often skilled input. These are people without design experience dictating how the design should look, how the marketing strategy should go, etc.

    1. katamia*

      Oh my gosh that sounds like hell to me. Good collaboration to me seems like people mostly sticking to their wheelhouses while working together to make one thing. I have no background in design, so unless something is really unclear or accidenally looks like an anatomical feature or there’s a typo, I shouldn’t be weighing in on design features. Ditto for people who aren’t writers–point something out if a phrase is confusing or offputting or something, but if it’s just not the way you would say it, don’t bring it up.

    2. Rincat*

      Oof that does sound awful. I’ve done this type of “collaborative” work before and hated it. Anyway, do you have project plans with some hard dates? Can you get people to stick to those dates? I think putting it into something visual like Microsoft Project with “percentage complete” and dates listed out my help. You may not be able to make anyone an “owner” on those tasks but can you label someone as ultimately responsible? Sometimes something visual like that drives people to actually get things done, especially if their name is on it – it’s like appealing to an authority.

  153. Karen*

    I’m in the process of interviewing for an internal posting at my company that would be a step up from my current role. My role has a professional designation (lets say CFA). The person I report to doesn’t have that designation, but their leader does. I met with the person who would be my leader today (let’s call him Bob) and spoke to his leader on the phone last week (let’s call her Alice). In a lot of ways I’m a perfect fit for this role because it’s an extension of work I’ve been doing for the last two years and senior management is aware that I’ve been an asset. I got the sense from the interview that I was a strong candidate. At the end of the interview, I asked Bob if he knew when he expected to have made a decision. He said that he hoped that he would have an answer in a week, but he also mentioned that the decision was partly out of his hands – he may not get his first choice because the other CFA’s in the company may have something to say about where CFA’s are needed within the company. He did however, suggest that if I really was as interested as I seemed, I should send an email to Alice letting her know. So, that’s what I’m intending to do. The problem is that I don’t exactly know what to say. Presumably she knows I’m interested in the role since I applied for it and told her that I was interested. I don’t know how to express how much I really want this role and what a good fit I think I’d be. Or even how to word such an email.

    1. CAA*

      Something like “I wanted to thank you again for spending time with me on the phone last week. I’m very interested in the xxx role that we discussed, and it sounds like a perfect fit with my experience given that it’s an extension of the work I’ve been doing on yyy for the past two years. I’ve really enjoyed my conversations with Bob and I believe we’d work well together. I’m enthusiastic about this opportunity and hope to be able to work in your group in the future.”

    2. Michael in Boston*

      Is Alice at the level where you could get a sit down with her for 10-15 minutes? If so, you might just email that Bob told you to be in touch with her to discuss how being a CFA affects your application to Bob’s group/team. Discuss it in person and convey your enthusiasm in your voice and demeanor.

      If not, then I would just draft an email something short stating that Bob encouraged you to be in touch with her because you are a CFA and you have applied to move to this new role. Let her know that you have applied and indicate that the role is a great fit for both your career aspiration and your current skill set. Ask if there is any approval you need from her to enable Bob to move on your candidacy. Shorter the better.

  154. the assistant*

    I work with someone who’s a level above me (he’s the “specialist” while I’m just an “assistant”), who doesn’t seem to respect my time and work on other things while we have meetings to discuss the assignments I’m helping him with, which is frustrating because I also have other assignments to work on and I don’t want to sit there and wait for him to finish x, y, or z. Should I say anything? I don’t like confrontations in general, and I think my fear is I work with him a lot and I don’t want our relationship to go sour.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you call him out on it in the moment with something like, “is now still a good time for us to talk about Project Teapot? I don’t want to take you away from other work if your focus needs to be elsewhere.”

    2. Michael in Boston*

      When you have these meetings, does he pick the time or do you? If he is picking the time, then there is no excuse. If you are picking the time, you can ask for feedback of when is best to schedule to allow him to focus completely on your task and not his other tasks.

      Are you being assigned to assist him, or is he selecting you to assist him? Is he the owner of the project or are you the owner of the project, or is it your manager? Whoever owns this should be consulted for how best to prioritize, as in some cases his other tasks might be more important or time sensitive. Unfortunately, being a level above can mean more pressure and more tasks and less visibility on importance of tasks to others. I’ve had meetings with my manager interrupted by emails that need to get sent: a few minutes here or there. If this eats up a significant amount of time, then it is a problem.

      Also, are these meetings 30 min or 60 min, and can you make them shorter? Shorter meetings might discourage him from multitasking. If he has you for 60 minutes, he might be more tempted to stray from the agenda. It might help if you have an agenda of the key points you need assistance with. Again, you are probably doing this already and that is why you are frustrated.

      If it is impacting you to the point that you can’t execute on your other assignments, then you need to ask your manager how best to proceed. They might be able to intervene or coach you how to deal with the individual avoiding a confrontation.

  155. Detective Amy Santiago*

    It’s super awesome to get screamed at for something your coworker screwed up.

    2. Confused Teapot Maker*

      New Job isn’t like this but at Old Job it wasn’t uncommon for Line Manager to yell at me for something SHE screwed up. It was such a shame to move on from those moments…

      1. Queen of the File*

        I worked very, very briefly in film and this happened on a daily basis. CYA meant finding someone else to publically humiliate for your mistakes.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Oh, I got yelled at by an outside person, not the boss.

        But I ended up flipping a little and making coworker deal with it. Thank god I only have one more work day before vacation.

    3. Halls of Montezuma*

      I have a PM like that. We call it pin the tail on the donkey – we all know he’s just erupting like a volcano at whoever happens to be unlucky enough to be there, but occasionally he gets the right person (and we make donkey jokes about it takes one to recognize one for the rest of the day).

  156. This is me*

    My Performance Improvement Plan ran out this week, but it looks like I am not getting fired today because my boss has asked me to do something for our staff meeting on Monday.

    2. CAA*

      That’s great, but hopefully you have a one-on-one coming up with your boss where you can discuss successfully completing the PIP. This is something you need to close the book on, so if you don’t already have a meeting scheduled, maybe ask next week if you can have a few minutes of your boss’ time and then bring it up.

  157. 0phen*

    I am still studying, but might want to start develop apps next to it, partly to see whether I can make money (doubtful) and fun (probably) with it, but mostly to get some more skills. I do know some programming, but I am looking at a good course to teach me how to make apps. Can anyone recommend some online?

    I would be willing to pay up to € 100-200.

    1. Michael in Boston*

      I am not aware of any online courses for a fee that I can recommend, but I would maybe recommend starting with some free resources like MOOCs from edX or Coursera (also Udemy and Udacity that I think do charge money) that let you access university level courses in CS, some of which likely will help with your app design. I know Apple also has free resources to help learn a programming language called Swift that is designed for use in creating iOS Apps. If figure out which language you want to learn to program in, a google search of “learn X programming” or “learn how to make apps with X” turns up tons of free and paid educational materials.

  158. East Coast to West*

    I’ve begun to job search and I had some interviews already! I am living in Boston but interested in moving, focused mostly on Seattle but other cities/states too.

    A friend of mine works in Seattle and she recommended me for a few positions leading to an interview with one of her company’s recruiters and a hiring manager for a position similar but not identical to mine (it would be the next step up from my current role). Unfortunately, I am not moving forward to an on-site interview, but the whole process was made easier by the resources here on AAM: I felt very good about my cover letter, resume, and interview prep.

    But I do have two questions I would like to ask for advice on:

    1) How best do you deal with an interview that is not working? My interview was scheduled for 45 minutes by phone, but the interviewer stopped asking questions at about 20 minutes into and I filled about 20 more minutes with just about every question I could think to ask. If you get into this situation where you get the clear feeling that the interviewer has already decided (based on lack of questions, also tone of voice indicating disinterest), what is the right approach? Should you continue to ask questions, should you ask them point blank if there is any reason to continue the interview?

    2) How do people successfully search for and interview for positions requiring relocation? It has been tough trying to gauge whether rejections are based on my experience being a poor fit vs. relocating me being too much of a burden. If anyone has any experiences related to this, I would love to read them and learn what I might be able to apply to my own search!

    Happy Friday to all!

    1. CAA*

      1) I’ve been the interviewer in that situation, and I’m sorry to say I have no good answer. Hopefully it doesn’t happen too often, because it basically indicates that either your resume does not reflect your actual skills well or the company has a really bad screening process. In my case, it was pretty clear early on that the candidate simply didn’t do what he said on his resume. (There was another time that a candidate just didn’t speak English well enough to have a phone conversation with me, but I think that’s different.)

      2) If you are looking for a company to pay for your relocation, those opportunities are certainly rarer nowadays than they were in the past. Every time I’ve been involved with it (once for myself, multiple times for employees), it’s been a case where the person was already working for the company and was a known quantity before we moved them to a new location. When I’ve hired people who weren’t already located here, they always had to handle their own relocation expenses. You would really have to be head and shoulders above all the local candidates or have an extremely unique skillset to get a paid relocation in most companies that I’m familiar with. It’s just very hard to justify hiring someone and paying 15% or more of their first year’s salary to relocate them unless you’re quite certain that they’re going to be at least 15% better than a local. Are you able to relocate yourself if you have to? Do you have a compelling explanation about why you are moving to Seattle or the other cities you’re applying to?

      1. East Coast to West*

        Thanks for your comments!
        1. I think in my particular case I was interviewing for a position that was one level above where I am now and the hiring manager wanted someone who had this job currently. Many of his questions were tell me about a time when you did X, and the X was very specific to this role and I could only respond with analogous situations in my own more junior role. And also, as you mention, to be relocated, you have to be a much better candidate than local candidates.

        2. The particular company I was applying to is very large and the role had a relocation associated with it (as confirmed by my friend who referred me internally). I am considering attempting to relocate myself if I am unlucky with my search. But it is only the beginning. Essentially, once it is February, I will no longer owe my current employer for any tuition reimbursement (they are paying to help me complete graduate studies; I took about $5000 last January and need to remain employed 12 months to avoid a claw back) and then I might quit, fly out to Seattle and stay with my friend while applying for jobs in Seattle, looking for an apartment. The compelling reason to move to Seattle is to be closer to this close friend and also for quality of life, better job prospects, and better weather than in Boston. Other cities I am interested in are for reasons of lower cost of living, but few of these are on the west coast, more midwest or southwest. So far when I have been asked to explain my interest in moving, I focus on the opportunity and company itself and how it aligns with my long term career goals and then follow up with some of the facts about the places that attract me, good opportunities and a change of pace from my current location. I am not moving for family connection, which I think many people accept as a good compelling reason, my reason is more personal/financial/lifestyle/seeking new experiences after living in Massachusetts for almost my entire life.

        1. CAA*

          Yeah, not having family nearby makes it a much bigger risk for the employer. I think a lot of us have been burned by the guy who moved here because he convinced he wanted exactly this job getting homesick and quitting. I know that doesn’t really help because if you’ve never lived outside Mass, then you don’t have any way to reassure the interviewer, but at least if you know what he’s probably thinking about, you can make sure to address it.

          It sounds like you have some time since you’re dealing with the tuition reimbursement though.

  159. RN*

    Hi everyone, hope I’m not too late! I’m posting a question on behalf of my girlfriend. She is a nurse at the local VA and recently the nurses were given a list of daily cleaning tasks they were expected to complete during their shift. There was a lot of pushback because only nurses were expected to take on cleaning tasks and their particular unit is extremely under-staffed and overpopulated and people are being forced to stay for 16 hour shifts (also: the nurses were feeling a little demeaned in being expected to just take up the cleaning of the entire unit, including areas that they did not use at all). During a staff meeting, my girlfriend respectfully voiced her concern and management was very receptive and commended her for her eloquence in addressing the issue. However, two employees have now submitted an anonymous complaint with their union re: the cleaning tasks and the 16 hours shifts. My girlfriend is worried because she had voiced concerned previously and does not want to be attached to this complaint because her dispute was resolved with management peacefully already. She does not want management to think she submitted a complaint, especially because she is looking for her manager to help her get connected with a transfer to a new VA hospital soon. Basically, her question is: should she approach management once they receive the complaint and say she did not have anything to do with it or should she wait and see how things shake out? So far, she hasn’t heard anything from management about the complaint but the two nurses who submitted the complaint did approach her and ask if she wanted to be part of it. This is her first nursing job out of college and she is unsure what to do. Most importantly, she wants to maintain a good relationship with her manager in order to get transferred to a new hospital soon.

    Thanks everyone for your help and sorry for the novel!

    1. Michael in Boston*

      Are the complaints meant to be kept anonymous? If so, I’m not sure how she could say this and make them believe it without adding : “It wasn’t me — it was Anton and Antonia.”

      I think it would be better, for now, to ignore the complaint and to carry with professionalism. Maybe refraining from discussing the topic overmuch between now and her expected transfer?

  160. Documenting*

    Any tips for documenting issues with a terrible new hire? My company is very afraid of firing anyone so even though she is in a probationary period for 6 months it will require a lot of documentation. I’ve never had to do this before. Firings have to be signed off by the legal team and they reject a LOT. We don’t do PIPs for employees still on probation so there’s nothing I can have her sign, so that kind of makes it worse. She’s unable to do the job and she also makes a lot of racist/sexist/homophobic comments that have really upset almost everyone on the team. I have a few pages of documentation already but I don’t know if I’m doing it right. An off-site team does the hiring and firing and they don’t talk to me otherwise, no matter how much I try. I don’t want to contact them until I have something airtight – but how do I know?

    I’m leaving in three weeks (guess why I don’t like this company). I don’t know if I’ll get this done by then. If I don’t, should I ask my team to continue documenting issues after I move on, and give my replacement a heads up? It feels very weird, all of us against this one woman, but it’s a very weird situation to be in. I know my replacement pretty well and she will certainly want to continue the efforts. If I’m not actively working to get this person fired we will start hemorrhaging good people. I don’t know that it’s exactly professional to be honest with my team about the situation and to ask for their help but it doesn’t feel right not to. The stuff this new hire has said and done is personal and they have good reason to be angry. Thoughts?

    Also, yes, technically I have a boss, and a boss’s boss, but we are in a very awkward merger situation so practically speaking I have no authority AND no boss.

    1. Michael in Boston*

      I would make sure you alert your other trusted co-workers that you are documenting material and see if they would also document their own interactions with her and their own impressions of her inability to complete assigned tasks. But I would do so in confidence, with only those you trust, and do it in a one-on-one conversation. Maybe open by asking if they have noticed what you have and just gently suggest they document it for HR purposes?

      If this person has a manager, I would share your concerns with the manager so they can document. Unless you are their manager, in which case, you are doing what you should.

      I would also make sure that this person is being informed of the conduct that is wrong and the tasks that are not completed correctly. I think it will be important to document the inability to change just as much as the conduct itself: I would hope HR would be more persuaded by evidence of resistance to team feedback plus the record of poor performance.

    2. Beancounter Eric*

      Start documenting and alert your replacement NOW. They need to be in the loop that a problem exists and that, like it or not, it is about to become their problem.

  161. Filmgal*

    I’m a producer, and was recently contacted by someone seeking an internship opportunity. Pretty normal stuff, except that they referred to me as, “Mr. Filmgal.” My name is obviously female, and a 2 second glance at our website proves that I am most definitely a person in possession of lady-parts. I’m not looking for any interns at the moment, and replied to her with this information. However, I find I’m a little irked by being addressed as a dude. It’s a small thing, and obviously not a big deal but what is up with that? If you’re looking for work, don’t you take the time to check out who you’re addressing?

    And! She actually wrote me twice, about a month apart, and called me Mister in both emails. WHY?

    1. Michael in Boston*

      Could be someone who is:
      Sloppy, careless regarding details, and couldn’t be bothered to check your website for in-depth research
      Might be from a foreign country and unfamiliar with how names are gendered or how titles are gendered

      1. Confused Teapot Maker*

        +1

        I’ve had this several times with people looking for work experience and it is always from either somebody whose application is otherwise sloppy so clearly just fired that same email off to everybody and I guess I should be pleasantly surprised they bothered with my last name. OR it’s come from an overseas student who may either not be familiar with titles or may have had to widely guess which title goes with my (obviously female, if you’re from the same culture as me) name.

        1. Filmgal*

          Right, I figured it was just carelessness. Which, like, if you’re looking for a job I’d expect you to not overlook a detail like that, I certainly wouldn’t. And the phrase, “To Whom It May Concern” was invented for a reason.

    2. Marisol*

      In my book, it is a big deal. Did you explain the mistake to this person? I would have mentioned it, made it a teachable moment. Nothing hostile, just a few short lines about how making sexist assumptions can hinder one’s career prospects.

      1. Filmgal*

        I thought about it, and then realized I was dedicating too much brainspace to something that didn’t really deserve it. But if they write a third time I probably will. It just tells me they are lazy, and I don’t want someone that lazy working for me (even for free).

        1. Marisol*

          I get it–we don’t have unlimited emotional resources to invest in this sort of thing.

    3. Imaginary Number*

      Honestly, it really doesn’t bother me. Does it show a bit of lack of attention to detail? Sure. Is it a huge red flag? I don’t personally think so. I’m also a female in a very male-dominated industry and this happens to me all the time (my first name is obviously feminine but the shorter version I go by is unisex.) In my opinion it’s not all that different than someone saying “Miss or Ms.” when the individual goes by “Mrs.” The individual is a stranger. Unless there are other red flags suggesting they were being deliberately rude or sexist, I wouldn’t give it too much weight.

      1. Filmgal*

        That’s how I’m rolling with it. If they write a third time it may be a teaching moment. I just found it…off-putting? Lazy? But you’re right, I definitely won’t give it too much weight.

        1. Imaginary Number*

          I honestly wish we had a unisex salutation in our language/culture. It would save awkwardness when you truly don’t know the gender of the person you’re communicating with (or perhaps if they’re nonbinary.) With job applications “Dear hiring manager” has become standard but most situations don’t have a standard like that. I find “Dear ma’am or sir” to be incredibly awkward. “Hey there” isn’t going to cut it.

      2. Observer*

        I think it’s a bit different that Ms. or Miss vs Mrs. Those are things that you rarely can tell from the kind of information that is easily available. And Ms. doesn’t assume anything about marital status – I’d be put off by Miss or Mrs. unless the information was out there, to be honest. In a work context it’s best not to make such assumptions.

        The assumption about gender is far more loaded and less excusable, though. So, that’s a problem on it’s own, especially since Filmgal says that the relevant information is pretty much out there. Which is another bad thing – that this has happened twice shows a fair level of carelessness. And this is while the applicant is in a situation where one would normally be trying to look their best.

        So, if I were in Filmgal’s position, I would be extremely hesitant to take this person on even if really needed someone.

  162. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

    This might be a dumb question, but what are y’all’s plans for retirement, for those who are American and not retired?

    For those who are American and have retired, how have you been able to make sure you have enough to retire on?

    I’ve had a come-to-Jesus moment this week, in that I’ve realized that with recent changes to the American social safety net (pensions getting axed, 401k’s going into vogue) and potential changes (nuking Social Security) that I’m going to need to start figuring out how I’m going to eat and have a roof over my head after I am no longer able to work, or am pushed to retire.

    (The U.S.-specific nature of this question is why I specifically asked for American perspectives; I really hope that I don’t sound like a jerk in leaving other people out. I hope nobody feels left out :( )

    I’m in my late 20s, so I’m not in a rush, but I also want to know what my options are and how early I need to start setting stuff up.

    Thanks everyone!

    1. Michael in Boston*

      I have had some of the same concerns. Especially given that even with traditional retirement planning (the kind my company offers through 401K via Fidelity) assumes future Social Security income and Medicare coverage.

      Right now I am 26 and contributing 10% of my pre-tax income to 401K and my employer matched up to 4%. They also vest the matching, so to earn and keep all my matching I must remain with them for 4 years (2 more to go).

      I would recommend investing in 401K if your employer offers it, at least the amount that they match if they do. Another benefit to take advantage of would be any tuition assistance for pursuing a master’s degree. I think, realistically, the best you can do to maximize your retirement is to start early and to maximize your earnings through more education or through training for a career with higher earnings.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, this is like the bat signal for a few of us here (Cosmic Avenger, where are you?). I hugely, hugely recommend William Bernstein’s free download “If You Can,” which I’ll link in followup; it’s the best short intro I know for cutting through the noise. You have a terrific advantage in thinking about this now; money you put away now will have more effect on your retirement than money you put away closer to it. First off, if your employer offers a match to your contributions to your retirement account, contribute enough to get it, because it’s free freaking money. Then open up an IRA–Roth vs. traditional matters less than actually opening up an IRA in the first place.

      I think the odds of Social Security disappearing entirely are not actually high. However, I don’t qualify for Social Security; instead I qualify for one of the nation’s dodgier pensions. Therefore I make considerable use of my employer’s tax-deferred options (I’m at a state university so I actually have access to double the usual space). I think I will get a pension of some kind, but I need to be prepared–so not that different from folks with Social Security, really.

    3. CatCat*

      I’m socking away as much as I can at the moment. I’m currently maxing out a 457 and have almost everything in stock index funds and a small amount of the portfolio (10%) in bond index funds (my plan offers extremely low expenses… pay attention to expenses as they can really eat things up!!) Check out the book “The Simple Path to Wealth” on using index funds for growth. A very clear read.

      I have 8% going into a pension (mandatory contributions).

      I’m lucky in that I also have access to a 401(k) and would like to start contributing to that with new raises (it has a contribution independent of the 457 limit so theoretically, I could eventually max out both), but that plan is on hold at the moment (expecting a COLA and merit raise in the next couple months) since I may have some big expenses coming up.

      I think Mr. Money Mustache’s blog post, “The Shockingly Simple Math Behind Early Retirement,” is a really interesting read even if early retirement is not in the cards for you. It made me think seriously about the underlying math of retirement and helped me set some goals. That blog post is at http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

    4. CAA*

      DH and I are about to retire at ages 55 and 54. If it makes you feel any better, we certainly heard 30+ years ago when we started working that we would never get anything from social security. Now that it’s only 12/13 years away, we do count it in our financial plan but we expect it might only be about 66% of what’s projected.

      We don’t have pensions either, so we have to live off what we’ve saved. Our strategy was always to max out our 401Ks, then max out an IRA (Roth IRA when those were invented), then save as much as we could in a regular taxable investment account. We’ve invested in low cost index funds using some of the portfolio advice from the Bogleheads forum. Working in tech, we’ve occasionally gotten stock options as well that have added a few thousand dollars in some years and that kind of “found money” has always gone into investment accounts to continue to grow.

      For us, the keys to being able to save aggressively were to prioritize throughout the rest of our lives. We have a smaller condo instead of a mcmansion house. We only had one child. We had nicer vacations once every few years and cheap ones otherwise; and we bought low cost cars every 12 to 15 years and never with a loan. It’s not that we’re suffering or living in poverty, but we do live below our means and don’t spend nearly as much as some of our neighbors.

      I can definitely say that when I was in my 20s, the end was not in sight and I couldn’t even imagine being where we are today. There will be setbacks and stock markets will crash and sometimes the losses will keep you up at night worrying, but you must be persistent and keep getting back on the path after these things occur.

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        Congratulations on your soon-to-be retirement! I’m just curious, what are your intentions with regard to health insurance, if you don’t mind my asking?

        1. CAA*

          Thank you!

          Honestly, health insurance is probably the single scariest thing about retiring before being old enough for Medicare. Our plan is to be on COBRA until the next ACA exchange open enrollment period and then evaluate options. We could go on ACA now, but then our deductibles would start over at $0, so it’s better to wait until January before switching. It looks like a Bronze ACA plan in our area will be cheaper than my employer’s COBRA next year, and that’s a good option for us as we don’t usually use a lot of medical care, but we have to wait and see the actual prices for both options before making a final decision. Total cost of the ACA bronze plan for this year would have been about $10,800 with up to $13,000 out of pocket expenses, which is just crazy! And who knows what’ll happen in the markets next year with the way our elected officials are acting. Health insurance next year could end up costing more than I made in a year at my first professional job.

          Another tricky thing I’ve learned is that to buy health insurance on the exchange, we have to make sure we have enough income to avoid falling below the poverty line (!) and getting put on Medicare. One way to do that is to roll our 401Ks into our IRAs and then convert enough of the funds in the IRA to the Roth IRAs. Since you have to pay taxes on the conversion from a traditional IRA to a Roth, that counts as income.

          So, that’s probably more than you wanted to know, but as you can imagine, this topic is rather all consuming for me right now.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I will never be able to retire, unless I suddenly make a shit load of money somehow, or marry someone who is in possession of a shit load of money, or both. Even then, I’ll probably still be doing something because otherwise I would die of boredom. I have student loans that without the shit load of money, I will still have when I die. If I reach a point where I can’t retire but I can no longer work and I’m still alone, then I shall buy a ticket to the UK, fly there, find a nice beach, and walk into the sea.

      Do not recommend this for someone who is only in their twenties. You have lots of time but I would get started saving now, as much as you can. Learn about investing. I never had help with this and now I’m screwed, unless a frickin miracle happens.

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        Damn, I’m sorry :( I hope things go as well as possible for you. I’m somewhat luckier than many in my own student loans situation, but they’re definitely no joke, and they have a way of screwing a person over in the most malicious possible way. I hope you’re able to live a good life despite all of the badness.

    6. NW Mossy*

      I’m in the industry, and my (somewhat self-interested) advice is to start early. If you’ve got access to a company plan, start contributing to it, even if it’s at the lowest level allowed. If you don’t, IRAs (especially if you can support a routine, automated contribution of a set amount every month) are a good option.

      One simple way to start is to mirror a typical “automatic contribution arrangement” – these are used by employers who want their employees to have to opt out of saving rather than opt in, and they’re popular because they remove the procedural hurdles to saving. These arrangements often start out a new saver at 3-6% of pay, invest the money in a target date fund/managed account appropriate for your age, and then increase your savings rate 1% per year until you hit 10-12%. The idea is that it’s set-it-and-forget-it, so that you save with minimal ongoing effort.

      The biggest barrier most people have to saving for retirement is that they never start. If you can get past that, you’re in better shape than many.

    7. Michael Scarn, CPA*

      My spouse and I really focused on getting out of debt. I paid off my car before we got married, we paid off my small student loan balance shortly after we got married. About 4 years ago we paid off our house. In that time we’ve saved and paid cash for 2 lots in our neighborhood. We’re saving so we can build houses on the lots. We’d like to have rental properties so we have an income source during retirement. I also have a 401(k) and an employee stock ownership plan through my employer. Even with no debt, living in a house we own, and a plan, my spouse thinks we are behind the curve for our age group (35 and 40) and stresses about retirement.

    8. Essie*

      My spouse just quit teaching after ~15 years, and we are going to seek expert advice on whether to liquidate his pension into something else. The way education in the U.S. is going, he might lose everything if he doesn’t pull it out.

      I have a 401k, but the available index funds are crappy. I contribute enough to get my match, then max out my Roth IRA.

      The answer to “when should I start saving for retirement?” is always “yesterday”. Set up an IRA, investigate your job’s offerings, and get started ASAP. If your company offers any sort of matching, you’re leaving benefits on the table by not contributing.

    9. Sam Foster*

      My plan: Die.
      My advice: Save, save, save, and save some more. And do whatever you can to NOT dip in to that savings if you can help it.

  163. How do you organize large amounts of interrelated information?*

    I’m working on my dissertation research and need some practical advice on how to keep track of a lot of interrelated information. In the past I used index cards, but I’m looking for a paperless solution. I’d like practical advice – like software or a process. I do not need collaborative software because I’m not working with teams, etc.

    My current methods are all using MS word docs.
    1) I keep an annotated bibliography of all the sources sorted by subject with intra document cross links in one big file.
    2) In a separate file I jot down everything I know on my topic with brief phrases (facts, authors) to jog my memory. Entries are chronological. I use the search feature whenever I get the “that rings a bell” feeling. Items to follow up on are in red font, and I periodically scroll through to check them.
    3) I take notes while reading and have a separate doc for each source (This is something that I would have done with index cards in the past. I liked being able to sort and re-sort cards in multiple ways.)

    Using the search doc feature in these docs works well, but I’m wondering if there’s a better way – especially regarding separate notes files for each source. I’m also going to need a way to systematically list differences among the manuscripts I’m studying (a humanities field).

    2. Michael in Boston*

      If you have the money for it, a software like Scrivener could help. It is often more marketed towards writers of creative fiction and non-fiction, but it contains several note taking features and lets you write sections out of sequence and later order them together to export to word or PDF.

      You might also like something like MindNode to visualize connections and create mind maps of your ideas if you think visually.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      For the sources, what about a spreadsheet? You could put the title, the author, the subject, a link, and whatever other info you need for your bibliography. And then you can re-sort it in different ways.

    5. BuildMeUp*

      I use OneNote – you can make sections with individual pages, and set up links between the pages. You can also mark things as “To Do,” “Remember for Later,” etc.

  164. Teapot Librarian*

    Just a quick update on my hoarder employee for the folks who gave me advice last week. He and I just spoke and I presented the return of the records to the university as a done deal as suggested. He just shook his head and then said “I disagree, not that that counts for anything around here.” I pushed back a bit and told him that was not an appropriate characterization, that I’ve taken his disagreements into consideration (though not on this), but as I’m typing this I’m realizing that I should have told him flat out that “this is not an appropriate way to talk to your manager.” Oh well, still some progress.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m sorry. I know he’s been a problem for you. Just keep trying to modernize the collection. If you want to stay sane, I once started tracking the number of times I was told, “But we tried that in 1993 and it didn’t work” on a sticky note by my desk. It at least gave me a thing to remind myself that I was not crazy and that eventually the person who kept saying it retired.

      And then we tried the thing that I suggested and, shocker, it did work, because we have the internet now.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Thank goodness my employees don’t say “but we’ve always done it that way.” They usually have more or less valid reasons for why things were decided the way they were a decade ago. It’s just other things that are a problem with them :-) (They also are all incredibly passionate about doing a good job; it’s just that they don’t see that they aren’t doing a good job.)

    2. Siberian*

      Don’t be too hard on yourself, Teapot. It can be really hard to respond just the way you want to in the moment, especially when you’re surprised by a comment.

      I practice my difficult conversations/interviews/etc. out loud while I drive in the car alone. A lot. It gives me a chance to hear how things sound and also begin to anticipate some responses. If I do it often enough, the right things begin to pop out of my mouth even when I’m surprised. :)

    3. Marisol*

      You can always initiate another conversation on the subject! You’re not obligated to come up with the perfect response in the moment. Especially since…you’re the boss! If you think your employee has an attitude problem, that’s worth having a separate conversation about.

    1. fposte*

      I saw that. I did like the line “No matter what you do for a living, the only thing you’ll get more and more and more of is hard work.”

      1. Nicotene*

        She had a line that stopped me in my tracks last week: “The very concept of selling out no longer even exists for most people, because marketing and branding and retail — literally selling stuff — have been reframed as creative endeavors. How do you fault someone for selling out if their dream is to sell, sell, sell and sell some more?”

    2. Manders*

      I find writers’ advice to other writers kind of frustrating sometimes, to be honest. Polly has been very successful as a freelance writer, but that doesn’t mean *all* writers are going to have the same amount of success freelancing or the same frustrations in an office setting. I have the same quibbles with Dear Sugar–she does write beautifully, but I’ve ground my teeth through so many people telling me about Wild like we all have months of free time to wander off into the wilderness and find ourselves.

      My favorite writer who also gives advice about making a living as a writer used to be John Scalzi. He then ended up having so much success in his career that he backed off on the advice, out of concern that people would get unrealistic ideas of what to expect. Some of his best stuff is still up on his blog in the archives.

  166. Marisol*

    Is putting nut butter in the fridge a normal thing to do? I have an incompetent, weasely coworker who I hate and just found a jar of her almond butter in the fridge so I’m hoping to have another valid reason to hate her.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        And even if it didn’t, why would this be a “valid reason to hate her”?

    2. paul*

      I can’t stand almond butter so can’t answer but…is it ever really productive or worthwhile to look for extra reasons to hate someone? That seems like it makes life harder. People generally give you enough reasons to hate them on their own without having to search them out.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’m kind of thinking this, Marisol. Sounds like it might have been a long week for you. Leave the innocent nut butter out of it.

            1. paul*

              we are 5 minutes from quitting time after gathering documents for an audit and photographing networking equipment for an audit and getting IT to get me information for an audit and pulling client files and and and

              I wonder what weekend specials the liquor store has?

              1. Not a Real Giraffe*

                I just spent the last 5 minutes reading a Buzzfeed article about how to pick out the best cheap wine, so 5pm is definitely on my mind!

                (we ARE an earnest people – Marisol, apologies for misreading the joke!)

    3. CAA*

      Yes, natural almond butter (and peanut butter for that matter) will go rancid at room temperature.

      1. Marisol*

        ok thanks. I guess I’ll have to focus my hatred on all the other incredibly valid reasons I have.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Sure. Why not. It’s valid.

      I get it – it’s someone you want to smash in the face with a shovel. Just, you know, focus on the almond-butter-hating and not the shovel-face-smashing.

      2. periwinkle*

        And focus that almond-butter hating on the behavior and not on the almond butter, which is pure and innocent and exceptionally yummy.

  167. thebluecastle*

    I’m applying for a program manager position where they are looking for someone with social media skills. I’ve never done this for a job before BUT i do have a lot of experience in my hobby “teapot sculpting” that is related to this organization. I’ve mentioned it in my cover letter but do i need to put it on my resume too? If I do put it on my resume how do you add social media to a resume?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      If you did as a volunteer with a “teapot sculpting” group than I would put it down as volunteer experience. Otherwise, I might just stick it in the cover letter.

      You could also put it under, “Other Skills” and add that you have so many followers on your blog devoted to “teapot sculpting.” Just remember that if you put it in the resume or in the cover letter, you have to link to what you have done and they will go look.

    2. Michael in Boston*

      Are they looking for social media management experience or just basic familiarity with social media? Is this a part of the job one can grow into or is it a must have from day one? Which platforms are they active in and what are their goals for these social media activities?

      I would ask questions like this in the interview.

      I would only add social media to the resume if you did it for your job: for example, you managed a FB account for your product or you wrote tweets to answer customers online or you developed a content calendar for integrated social campaign across platforms.

      I would mention your use of social media in the cover letter to address that you understand its part of the job and that you have some potentially transferable experiences or skills to bring to the position. But you really need to get a better sense of how serious they are about social and how successful you have been in social (how many followers you have, how many platforms you’re active in, your level of activity is it daily or weekly or monthly, and how many interactions your content generates).

  168. Kately*

    I got called for a job application I sent it! It’s the first time I’ve had a reply that wasn’t a rejection in five years. They’re checking my references and submitted work first and then possibly I will be called in for an interview (They apologized for it being backward, but it’s pretty common in the smaller city I work in – they want to know who knows you.). I’m pretty excited but just trying to be thankful that they showed an interest without getting my hopes up.

    Thanks to Alison and the AAM community for providing excellent insights and feedback around the hiring process. I’ve also stepped it up a lot and become more professional – and less reserved – about asking for references and touting my own achievements. Hopefully I will have a positive update soonish – they were very clear about timelines. And if not, I know where I can get some words of support. :)

  169. Normally A Lurker*

    I’m a long term temp (11 months) in an admin position I really like. However, 6 months ago, I was told that they couldn’t hire me full time for this desk bc it wasn’t in the budget – which is fine. (There were other things that happened around then that leads me to believe this is true).

    However, it’s now been 6 months, and I know other desks are hiring. I think my desk is still not though.

    I want to talk to the hiring manager of my floor (someone with whom I have a friendly relationship) about applying for one of the full time open positions.

    I was going to say something like this:

    I am really interested in a full time position. I like Tea Pot Inc, and would like to stay here, but working as a temp is financially unfeasible for me for much longer. Are there open position here that I could be looking at?

    But my friend says I shouldn’t talk about the financially unfeasible part bc it will make me sound like I am looking for other jobs (spoiler – I am).

    Who is right here? How do I handle this?

    Thank you for any help you might have.

    1. Michael in Boston*

      I would agree that the financial aspect can make your interest in a full-time position seem less motivated by your desire to stay with the company vs. just accepting any full time gig.

      Maybe to say:
      “I am really interested in a full time position. I like Tea Pot Inc, because of X, Y, and/or Z reasons. I envision myself contributing to the organization long-term and feel that transitioning from a temp position to a full-time position would be the best way to make that happen. Are there any openings that I would be a good fit for?”

    2. CAA*

      It’s hard to know who is right without knowing your hiring manager. I have always suspected that the people on my teams are working primarily because they need money, and they’d most likely be doing something else if they didn’t need it. Therefore, when I’m hiring, I make sure to have salary conversations very early in the process (like during the phone screen). However, some people are weird about this and think that if an applicant talks about money too early it means that they only care about money and not about the work. (For myself, I find that I can feel a lot more passionate about my work when I am not distracted by worrying about not having enough money!)

      If you think the hiring manager is likely to be one of the “never mention money” people, then you could just say something like “I’m really like working here and am very interested in a full-time position. Do you know of any openings where I would be a good fit?”

    3. Halls of Montezuma*

      I think most people understand that temps would generally like to become FT, and that very few people choose to stay temps if they’ve got that choice, so I’d drop the part about financials. Something like “I like working at Tea Pot because of some reason that isn’t $, and am very interested in a FT position. Are there any FT positions open or coming up that I could be looking at?”

  170. Anon Accountant*

    I absolutely despise my job. My office light is halfway burned out and flickers constantly. It had been doing it for a few minutes then coming on and not doing it again. Well now it’s now stopping.

    The constant flickering literally is a health hazard and I spoke to my boss about it, because I have a history of seizures. His response? Well yeah, we’re working on it.

    I wish we had HR and weren’t a small place like this. Ugh

    1. H.C.*

      Do you have a private office? If so, bring in a desk/floor lamp and shut off the ceiling lights (did that OldJob myself)

      1. Anon Accountant*

        I do. I think I’m going to try that. Hopefully that’ll spur them into getting the stupid light replaced faster.

    2. Nanc*

      Can you call your doctor and ask them to fax/email a note ASAP? Can you contact facilities/maintenance directly? Can you just go to HR and point out you have a medical condition and allowing this to continue presents safety concerns/liability? Can Gibbs come by and give your boss a good whack to the back of the head? (that last one is facetious, I know, but sheesh, your boss!)

      Good luck.

  171. frustrated beyond hope*

    I’m done. Just done. I need a new job & I need it NOW. I so want to simply walk out of here and never come back. I can’t afford to just walk away without a job as I was laid off from last job 2 years ago & went through all my savings. Been underpaid here for the past 18 months and have not been able to save anything & have managed to rackup credit card debt.
    I’m just done.

    1. Henry*

      Hang in there, I know interviewing is a full-time job in itself so you may not have a whole lot of time to devote to it. You should have a lot of motivation to find a better gig. Try not to bash your current employer in job interviews but know that you deserve a livable wage and to be appreciated. It just took me 4 months to find the right job and I am in a ‘desirable’ field. Best of luck!

  172. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Just got to my car to go home…and threw up four times in five minutes. I guess cheese-block eating coworker was really bugging me!

    1. Effie, getting there*

      Oh no! At least it’s Friday? Hope your weekend gets better. Take care!

  173. LawBee*

    ok, I thought I knew but I don’t. C-Suite is executive level, right? Like big-time executive, SVPs etc. And what is D-Suite? Are there other levels?

    1. Michael in Boston*

      C suite would be CEO, COO, CFO, CTO, CIO, CMO. I don’t think SVP counts. I could be wrong, let me know if so.

    2. Sylvia*

      C-level = Chief of _____; if someone referred to TPTB/the powers that be, you’d assume they were talking about these people
      D-level = Director of _____

      Click my username for a surprisingly detailed explanation of corporate titles on Wikipedia.

    4. H.C.*

      C-suites tend to refer to leadership with a Chief […] Officer titles.

      D-Suites is sometimes used to refer to heads of departments with non C-suite titles (their actual titles can vary from VP/Director/Chair/Chief/Head/etc.)

  174. Sylvia*

    I’m about to send huge invoices to two people. I’m scared. Somebody hold my hand.

  175. Serious Pillowfight*

    Yesterday I went to put my timesheet in my boss’s mailbox and couldn’t help but see an invoice from a guy who freelances occasionally. Before I became full-time, I also freelanced doing the same type of work he does. I saw that he gets $2 an hour more than I did when I was doing it. It makes me angry because I had to fight tooth-and-nail to get what I got and management acted like they were doing me a favor by agreeing to a higher rate. I can’t help but think that because he’s a man, they had no problem paying him more. We are roughly the same age, but he did it as his full-time job at another company before he started filling in here, whereas I hadn’t had much experience before I did it. So I suppose it’s possible that’s why he’s getting more. I guess I need to let it go. It just makes me feel like the higher-ups see me as a bargain and respect the fellow men who are doing the same job.

  176. Need job, will travel*

    Is asking where else you are looking for a job a standard interview question? I’m looking for my first professional job and just had a phone interview that was rather bizarre — the interviewer basically quizzed me about various aspects of my CV and then cut me off before I was done explaining my field of study. He then asked me if I had any geographic restrictions or preference (I understand why this question, they want to know if you are willing to move) and then told me to name all the other places I was applying for a job. I tried to be vague (“mostly along the East Coast, but a few institutions in other cities across the country”) but he made me name specific companies. For what it’s worth, it’s a small field, maybe 30 places total across the US, doing this work. Weird, or should I be expecting this?

    I hung up feeling like I had totally flubbed the interview, but after I sent an email thank-you (thanks, AAM!) he replied with “Likewise, a pleasure. Let’s touch base in early August. You have a unique (and compelling) background.” So maybe not so bad after all?

    1. CAA*

      It’s not unheard of for people to ask what other companies you’ve applied to, especially for more junior positions. If they’re interested in you, they want to know who their competition is. At this level, you probably don’t have enough clout to decline to answer that.

    2. Henry*

      I think it is fairly normal, especially with recruiters. If you don’t have a defined career path or it’s not obvious why you would be a perfect fit, it seems like a reasonable question to ask. They may be trying to gauge their odds too of you accepting an offer if they are a smaller organization. Usually it comes up later in the process when there’s a possibility of a job offer and timelines become important. I don’t think you are obliged to name the other institutions by any means. Good luck!

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I was asked that question in my first professional interview after university and it completely threw me. I remember thinking at the time that I felt it was quite rude and none of their business. I later learnt that it was a tactic they used to see if they could get an ‘in’ of places that were hiring (this was a recruitment firm I interviewed at).

      I thought it was shitty then and shitty now.

  177. Elizabeth*

    I am a project manager and have been working in the same industry (and at the same company) for over 10 years. I recently accepted an offer for another industry’s IT PMO, which I am super excited about. It’s a huge raise and a step up. The only drawback is that the vacation accrual is less. I was told this is standard, and non-negotiable from their HR’s standpoint, though it does take quite a jump in year 3, so it’s not a total deal breaker. Due to the way their PTO buckets work, holiday pay also comes out of the same bucket – and with so many federal holidays between now and Jan 2, that means that my actual vac time accrual will not be much. I have a pre-paid vacation (2 weeks) scheduled at the beginning of January, and I did not mention it during the negotiation phase – my own fault, I know..but I failed to realize the holidays come out of the same bucket so I had thought I’d be covered and that it was far enough out that I wouldn’t need to raise it now..
    It would not be a huge deal for me to reschedule the trip (though I don’t want to), and based on that alone, I figured I would chat with the hiring manager during my first 1:1 to ask him if taking it partially unpaid is an option. Another colleague told me emailing or calling him about it now would only be necessary if it were going to be a deal breaker in taking the job. Since it’s not, is just talking to my manager about it after I start reasonable? Appreciate the feedback, thank you!

    1. CAA*

      That sounds reasonable to me. Especially if you’re starting soon, you’re asking 5 months in advance. You probably won’t be the first person who was confused about a PTO system where you have to accrue holiday pay, because that’s pretty unusual.

  178. Stacy*

    I am a project manager and have been working in the same industry (and at the same company) for over 10 years. I recently accepted an offer for another industry’s IT PMO, which I am super excited about. It’s a huge raise and a step up. The only drawback is that the vacation accrual is less. I was told this is standard, and non-negotiable from their HR’s standpoint, though it does take quite a jump in year 3, so it’s not a total deal breaker. Due to the way their PTO buckets work, holiday pay also comes out of the same bucket – and with so many federal holidays between now and Jan 2, that means that my actual vac time accrual will not be much. I have a pre-paid vacation (2 weeks) scheduled at the beginning of January, and I did not mention it during the negotiation phase – my own fault, I know..but I failed to realize the holidays come out of the same bucket so I had thought I’d be covered and that it was far enough out that I wouldn’t need to raise it now..
    It would not be a huge deal for me to reschedule the trip (though I don’t want to), and based on that alone, I figured I would chat with the hiring manager during my first 1:1 to ask him if taking it partially unpaid is an option. Another colleague told me emailing or calling him about it now would only be necessary if it were going to be a deal breaker in taking the job. Since it’s not, is just talking to my manager about it after I start reasonable? Appreciate the feedback, thank you!

  179. Always Be Codin'*

    Asking for a friend:

    Is there a one-stop shop for learning to apply concepts such as APIs and development environments that a non-CS college proficient in coding did not learn, because said student was not in CS?

    Thanks!

  180. KelJohnson*

    How do you deal with staff on their cell phone roaming around an open plan office? We have this happen A LOT. People will sometimes step out of meetings to take a call (rightfully so) but end up walking in our area on their cell phones. Usually it’s work related, sometimes not. I’ve walked over a couple of times, with an “oh my gosh I’m so sorry to ask you to keep it down” look and whispered something like ‘ooh we’re working over here…’ but is there a set script anyone uses in this situation?

    Kelly

    1. Nanc*

      Brisk and business like. “Hey Ernestine, would you step into the lobby/outside/to the hallway, I/we need to focus on super important money-making task. Thanks.”

  181. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

    GOOD: Watching simulation run (mostly) as it should while listening to Flogging Molly.

    BAD: Said triumph came after a great deal of coding anxiety and wanting to strangle the software package.

    MEH: Getting hungry, and there ain’t much in the vending machine here.

  182. Late to the Game*

    I’m a long time reader, and I know Alison has addressed this in other places but I can’t find the topics by searching, so I was hoping folks could help with that OR with your advice. The tl;dr version of this is: how can I elicit direct feedback about my performance from a manager whose natural inclination is to not give it?

    I have just finished a year in a position, after 2.5 years in a REALLY toxic environment (management was passive aggressive, micromanagey, and manipulative). The first year in my current position went really well — I improved systems from my predecessor, increased output, strengthened the team I lead, and got good feedback from coworkers and clients about specific projects. In spite of all that, we lost out on some major funding and my boss had to jiggle a bunch so we could figure out how to operate on a shoestring budget; we don’t know if we’ll have money after this fiscal year (June 2018). So things have understandably gotten a little tense.

    However, I feel like my boss has all of a sudden started monitoring my work more closely (I was VERY independent last year), and been less positive with me. She’s started asking for input on pieces of my work she never did before, and her tone has indicated she’s dissatisfied with certain things on my current project, though she hasn’t said that directly. She’s not someone who directly says “I have concerns about your performance,” (specifically or generally) and she often asks questions about what I think or why I did something a certain way, but without giving her opinion about what should be done. She also has said that she “doesn’t believe in” performance reviews.

    So, I’m having a little bit of a meltdown because this is starting to trigger all of the nasty stuff that happened in my old place, and I can’t figure out whether I’m mis/over-interpreting, or if she is actually disatisfied with things I’m doing, but not telling me. So far, I’ve been good at keeping calm and unphased in my interactions with her, but it’s taking a major toll on my mental health. I want to ask for her direct feedback, and in particular, if she has concerns about my work, but I feel like if I’m misinterpreting and her tone has just been about her overall stress saying: “do you have any concerns about the work I’m doing” will feel off.

    Any ideas of how I can broach this conversation and make it about my job right now, not about how my old job left me overanalyzing every interaction with my boss?

  183. Mimmy*

    So I think I’m finally going to start listening to everyone who’s been telling me literally for years that I should incorporate my (apparently natural) writing skills into a career!

    But….it seems like those who write as part of their job often have degrees in English, Communications, or similar degrees. My background is in social work and disability studies (looking at disability in society–it is not applied like rehabilitation) and I’m just not up for a degree that probably won’t interest me. An option that comes up now and again is grant writing, but I don’t want to limit myself to just that. (Policy analyst is another option that I’ve mentioned here before, but my interest in that has waned a bit)

    I know that I have to prove myself as a writer first before, and that probably means writing a blog, volunteering to write articles / blog posts, etc., but I’m a little shy–I gotta get over that!

    1. Effie, getting there*

      Good luck! I’m excited for you. I used to work for a nonprofit and I volunteered to blog for them. It’s a lot easier when it’s for something you’re familiar with/care about. Hope you can find something similar to start!

  184. Newbie Manager*

    I’m a first time manager (as of this week!) and hoping someone has advice for me. I manage a team of 6 salaried people providing project management support to a federal teapot production agency, with several other teams on the same contract. My group includes one person who handles business processes for our contract at large, and gets a lot of odd job assignments for the client.

    This person is a similar age to me, and they used to complain to me about the parts of the job they don’t like. We were peers and I would commiserate, but now I need to interact in a completely different way that focuses on resolving what isn’t working and coaching through the things I can’t change for them. Is there a simple or straightforward approach to getting past the awkwardness in this change, or am I over-thinking things?

    1. Halls of Montezuma*

      Honestly, no magic answer. Just push through the awkward, be professional, and expect that she will be, too. As the manager, if you set the tone as this is perfectly normal and not weird, most people will fall in well (not necessarily without hiccups, but most people don’t actually want WTF Wednesday drama in their work lives), and soon enough the new normal will be well established.

    2. Zip Zap*

      I would be completely upfront about it. I like your wording: “resolve what isn’t working and coach them through what you can’t change.” You really have an advantage in that you already have a raport with this person. I would begin the conversation by acknowledging that it’s awkward and giving them a chance to voice any concerns.

  185. Effie, getting there*

    So I have an interview next Thursday and I’m kind of freaking out about it. I’m trying not to pin all my hopes on it. I am TERRIBLE at interviewing. This time I will prepare myself, I will read Alison’s guide, I will…not panic. The thing is, when the person called to set up the interview, I had just woken up and assumed that it was a telemarketer so I answered “hello?” very grumpily. She asked for me and I said “speaking”, still sounding cold. Then she identified herself and my persona flipped. The rest of the conversation went okay but was kind of awkward. And I’m trying to believe that this is not an automatic disqualification and I still have a chance…because WHAT IF it’s just a pity interview/now they’re just interviewing me to take of space as an interviewee?
    It’s for a PT admin position at a university and it’s near enough to my dance job and a bunch of other reasons all add up that I’d really like this position. Fingers crossed that I will keep myself calm and breathing and eating regularly until then.

    1. Effie, getting there*

      Also I applied for the position about 2 weeks before she called and I was prepared to wait much longer since it’s in academia and I know the hiring process is really likely to be slow so I was not prepared AT ALL for the call and oh golly I’m overthinking again. Just take deep breaths!

    2. Henry*

      Congrats on getting an interview! In my experience, the majority of employers will setup even an initial phone screen by email before calling. Those who call out of the blue and expect to conduct a detailed 30+ minute interview just seem inconsiderate. I doubt they are the actual decision maker for this role. Interviewing is a skill unrelated to your competence in a lot of ways and if you are always employed you are probably out of practice like most. Think of all the hiring some companies do and they don’t get any better at recruiting! Good luck!

      1. Effie, getting there*

        Thanks Henry! Appreciate your kind words. I’m going to keep my head up and practice this week :)

      2. S*

        I totally agree about the calling out of the blue. I got so fed up with it when I was job searching that I refused to pick up the phone for anyone who wasn’t in my address book. Either they left a message or that was that. It was infuriating to be expected to answer “What do you know about Company ABC?” when I had zero idea they would be calling.

  186. Tau*

    No time to read the rest of the open thread, but popping in briefly to say that my new job starts on Tuesday, please wish me luck! I am very excited but also very nervous.

    1. De Minimis*

      Good luck! I’m always a little anxious when I start a new job. Just the whole unknown part of it….

  187. GladThisWeekIsOver*

    Gem of the week: having “Lucy”, who has been on FMLA for 2 months, post incessantly on social media that she is on FMLA in order for someone to ask her why she on FMLA. I kid you not, she posts 20-30 times a day – 50% of the time about FMLA while take a boat tour/at the beach/etc. and the other 50% of the time about being single for 4 years 8 months 12 days 13 hours 43 minutes (but she’s not counting).
    She was supposed to return on X date. “Glenda” (perhaps the nicest person on earth) asked her on that day if she’s okay and asked if she would be back since she didn’t come to work. Lucy in turn posts a 3 paragraph rant that night telling us (Teapot Inc and our department) to HASHTAGGROWUP, GetOverIt, StayInYourLane, etc. In addition, she said we were all fake and in conclusion said to (hashtag, of course) TakeAScreenshotAssholes.

    And so we did. We’re not a terribly large department, but about 20 of the 50 people have seen the picture and literally no one gives AF. People laughed and went about their day. If anything, people felt really embarrassed for Lucy. Why do people do this? Why? She’s 47 going on 13. I’m surprised she didn’t tell us to cash er outside howbow dat.

    2. Zip Zap*

      Oh wow. Social media turns a lot of adults into teenagers. Or maybe it just exposes what’s already there. Who knows. Yeah. Unfriend/unfollow.

  188. Henry*

    I was recently hired and wasn’t worried about job title because I was the first hire on a technical team. However, since being hired a new job posting for a senior role (my previous job title) has been advertised with the same job description as mine. Should I not feel like they are questioning my qualifications since I wasn’t offered that title? I assume I will be involved in recruitment and the hiring of this person and I would be surprised if they actually are willing to pay and bring in someone with significantly more experience.

    1. Zip Zap*

      I would politely point it out to them. Bring it up in a face to face conversation with your manager. Smile, sound friendly, and state the facts. “Hey, I was wondering about something. I saw a new position being advertised. The title is the same as my previous title. The description fits my current role. Will this position be more senior? If so, how?” Prepare to use it as an opportunity to express interest in the role or negotiate for a change to your title. And be assertive. I wouldn’t make assumptions about their reasoning, but don’t be afraid to stand up for yourself.

  189. Confused and Frustrated*

    Hi, I hope someone can give me some advice on this. I recently graduated and got an interview with a company through my roommate’s dad. At first it seemed fine, but poor communication has resulted in a 2 1/2 month interview process that doesn’t seem to be ending any time soon, as they implied I was done with interviews and then set me up for more. It’s impossible to get updates out of them, to the point where I didn’t have hotel info for the in-person interview until 9 pm the night before. To top it off, I had an interview today where the interviewer asked me if I knew why they were having him interview me or why I was doing yet another set of interviews, and admitted he doesn’t even start with them until next week.

    At this point chances are good that if I get an offer I’ll turn it down because the company sounds like a mess, but I’m worried that because my roommate’s dad recommended me that it’ll look really bad on him. Should I tell him what’s been going on with the hiring process? Should I tell my point of contact with the company how confused and frustrated I am? I feel like I ought to say something, but I don’t want my actions to affect his career since the industry isn’t super large.

    1. Halls of Montezuma*

      As long as you’re polite and professional, it’s fine to turn down a job. They do sound pretty disorganized, so it’s worth taking a hard look at who in the cast of thousands of interviews would actually be your manager, whether they have a clear idea of the role, and whether they seem to always operate like this or not. I would not tell the company that you are confused or frustrated, nor would I tell that to your roommate’s dad. If you’re close to him, you might ask what their normal process is and see if he knows of any unusual circumstances, but if not just stick to thanking him for the referral and giving a matter of fact statement about ongoing interviews if he asks how it’s going.

    2. Henry*

      I just went through something similar with a 3 month interview process that was not normal. Turned out the company was dealing with a serious internal harassment issue and potentially financial issues. I definitely dodged a bullet there. If you really need the job there is no reason to end the process abruptly, although they shouldn’t be asking you to continually interview again and again. It may be worthwhile to see their offer, or you can speed up their decision making if you can get a competing offer from someone else. Most companies don’t realize how their slowness, lack of communication, and decisiveness impact hiring. It’s possible you have waited out other candidates though but it may be a good idea to get them to reaffirm that you are a finalist.

    3. Zip Zap*

      Well, your roommate’s dad may also be aware that they’re a mess. While you’re confused, he may be embarrassed. Still, I would be strategic about how to handle it and whether to say anything to him at all. Getting a competing offer would be ideal. If that doesn’t sound feasible right now, what are your other backup plans? Is there anything you could refer to that would make you sound confident and ambitious, not confused and hopeful? “How long is the typical interview process at your company? I appreciate getting to talk to so many people and learn about the company from so many angles, but I’m also under some pressure to make a choice between this and teaching English in Japan. What should I expect?”

  190. Liane*

    It’s late but Alison will read this even if no one else is around.
    I mentioned in a recent open thread that I got a temp job during the Closeout Sale at a store that Longtime Retail Co. decided to shutter. The other day I did a lot of their computer-based training modules. The one on Ethics was structured as a very simple fantasy video game–I even got to choose my own avatar! Someone did a great job of translating workplace type problems into situations for a King’s Officer to deal with.
    Each question/game encounter had multiple options for dealing with the situation & I had to pick the ethical option. For an encounter involving bullying, one of the options was “Ask the witch to cast a spell that will silence the other soldiers for the rest of the day.” Of course this wasn’t the ethical option, but I couldn’t help thinking, “You know, I’ve seen some workplace problems that could be improved/fixed, if I could make everyone shut up for the whole day.”

  191. Foreign Octopus*

    So I’ve been reading this website fairly religious since Christmas last year (I take great pleasure in reading through the archives when I’m relaxing with my cat, who is also a fan) and I hadn’t realised how much of Alison’s great advice I’d internalised until this week when an issue cropped up in work (ESL teacher) that I hadn’t anticipated.

    I had an adult student on a summer intensive course that I was teaching through the month of July (over now, thankfully) in preparation for the FCE exam. Only two of my six students actually planned to take the exam this month and the others just turned up because it was a lot of English all at once and people make the mistake of quantity over quality every time in language learning (not my problem, just a bug bear). This student made great claims about wanting to learn English but also not wanting to do any work at home by herself (and as anyone who has learnt a language as an adult knows, that’s just not feasible) and not doing any of the homework I’d set despite her asking for it at the beginning of the course.

    Come this week and the last lesson, I’m dreaming of having a full month off before my schedule picks up again and wondering if I should stop for a glass of wine on the way home to celebrate finishing the course (I love the Spanish, they don’t blink at mid-afternoon drinking), when this student drops an unexpected request in my lap that has me panicking. How do I be polite but firm whilst not losing my employer/friend any business?

    The request: private, one-to-one lessons with me outside of the Academy for 2 hours every week.

    (Note: I do offer private tuition but not to students at the Academy unless they’re offered to me by the Boss.)

    Reaction: 7 months of reading AAM kicked in and I heard myself saying “Oh, I’m really glad that you’ve enjoyed my teaching and want to continue. Unfortunately, I can’t take you on as a private student because I’ve met you via [name of the language academy]. However, I do know that Sansa, Arya, and Ygritte [other teachers at the academy] are available and are excellent teachers who I highly recommend. I suggest you to Boss and she can arrange that for you.”

    I didn’t even think about it. The words just flowed out from me as though Alison was there telling me what to say.

    Before reading AAM, I would have floundered and panicked and gone on a really long, circuitous route with deeply imaginative lies to avoid teaching this student. Instead, I told her the truth in a polite, professional way that hurt nobody’s feelings and saved me having to teach a student I didn’t particularly connect with.

    So thank you, Alison (and everyone who comments).

    I felt very proud of myself and I did have that glass of wine on the way home!

  192. A. Non*

    I left my last job earlier this year to work for local government, and I can already tell it isn’t going to work out.

    I’m on good terms with everyone I worked with. I had complaints about it, but I genuinely enjoyed working with then.

    How should I go about asking for the job back? It’s at a mid-sized firm that is very informal, but its been seeing a lot of growth the past few years. People leaving for a few months and coming back is extremely common. In fact, the employee handbook has material on how that’s handled (you keep your seniority for vacation accumulation purposes, etc.).

    The answer seems obvious: contact my old boss and say something like “Hey Luigi, I’ve spent some time thinking, and I would like to come back.” But, he’s on paternity leave. So I’d rather not interrupt him while he and his wife taking care of the new baby.

  193. Panda Bandit*

    This letter from a week ago was eye-opening for me: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/07/my-family-thinks-my-daughter-is-too-picky-about-the-jobs-she-applies-for.html

    While growing up, my family always pressured me to take any job that called back first, with no regards to fit at all. I never learned how to evaluate these places, and I had untreated anxiety and depression for ages, so my job history is a whole string of very low-paying positions at dysfunctional or toxic companies. Job-hunting has always been a horrible experience.

    Some people noted that you can’t build a great career out of something that makes you miserable. I think that’s so true and part of the reason I’ve never been able to advance. I’d like to make a huge change and I will have to anyway, because the current toxic company is circling the drain. I woke up today with a sense of purpose and I’ve been researching and narrowing down jobs that would be a better fit for me.

    Thanks to the LW for writing in and being a great parent, and to Alison and the commentariat for being awesome and reasonable and supportive.

  194. Contract negotiation advice?*

    I’m about to get my first job as a public library director! (Background check just needs to clear and the Selectmen have to approve me.) I think this position will have a contract, and I’ve never had a job with a contract before. I’ve also never had any sort of department head level position. I’ve gotten advice from my mentor on negotiating salary and benefits, but does anyone else have advice on evaluating/negotiating contracts in this kind of situation? I don’t know if there’s anything in particular I should watch out for or should make sure is in the contract. (If there are any public library directors in Massachusetts, hello! and I’d especially appreciate your advice.)

  195. Cookienay*

    Would like some advice from the stylist readers, please. This past week I had my hair done (color, shampoo, style) with my stylist of 15 years. She is going through some terrible drama with her husband (He’s either in jail or going to jail, uses drugs, and is abusive. This is not speculation on my part, just believe that I know this information for a fact.)
    During my 3 hour appointment she took 3 calls from him and actually held conversations while working on my hair. Much of the conversation was a detailed account of her exact activities and denying that she was with someone else, in a car, talking to a man, etc… This has never happened before.
    I don’t want to get into how to “help”her as that is not our relationship. She has great support from people who are actually in her life as well as plenty of resources in her life, I cannot pretend to know what she should do. So my question is this- is this behavior worth severing our professional relationship over? Her relationship with him has always been this way, it has just never spilled over into her work. I don’t want to be another source of stress for her, but I don’t want to listen to her fight with him during my appointment. I’m her client and not her friend. If I felt the need to interject, she would most likely tell me to mind my own business. Plus, this is at a fairly high-end salon so I’m dropping good money and I tip very well. I am willing to stick with her for a while if she returns to her normal level of professionalism, though. She does good work, but was distracted and our usual 2 hour slot took 3 hours. But I feel like it sounds selfish to say I’m dropping my hairdresser because it makes me uncomfortable to listen to her defend herself from this crazy man.
    Am I being petty and selfish? Thoughts?
    Thank you, readers. I always appreciate your insight and honesty.

    1. Marisol*

      I see nothing petty or selfish about that, although I would also say that the concept of “petty” and “selfish” are irrelevant in this context. It’s a business relationship and you want a square deal that is mutually rewarding. Your cash is good, you show up on time, you’re not abusive in voicing your requests, so you’re holding up your end of the bargain. What do you want in exchange for that cash? If you’re not able to get what you want, then you don’t do the deal.

      If you want a push of some sort, I’d push you to go ahead and negotiate the terms of this deal; i.e., ask for what you want. If you’re already on the brink of leaving, you don’t have much to lose. So just say that you’re used to have a two hour long appointment, and is it possible to keep that time frame (or something–I don’t have it in my to come up with a script.) She may be accommodating or she may get weird, but since you’re already poised to go somewhere else, her getting weird wouldn’t really so bad–it would just help you make the decision.

      Whatever you do, I think you have complete discretion over how you spend your money and you don’t owe anyone an explanation.

      1. Marisol*

        and listening to someone have a personal conversation with their husband during my appointment would make me VERY uncomfortable AND resentful. That goes double if it’s an abusive conversation.

  196. lola*

    Is it ok to document all the communication with somebody?

    I mean documenting by asking for emails instead of chats (our chat system makes saving conversations difficult) and sending minutes after every meeting.

    I’m coordinating a project with several units – “coordinating” means here that I’m expected to organise their work, however, they are the sole responsible for their results.

    I now learnt that the unit that has had most problems following instructions and hasn’t been performing tasks expected of them has complained to my boss that I’m not organised enough and confuse them. And this although I have been spending trice as much efforts on clarifying the tasks and procedures to them as I have to other units and their consistently ignoring them. After my stressing that they can always turn to me with questions and answering their questions in no time. After my introducing several changes to make our communication easier, which cost ME, not them, more work. I don’t even have to do that.

    I’m tired of being so accommodating, devoting them so much time and repeating everything five times since they don’t seem to have understood the first four times and then being complained about, but want to make sure that I have it in writing that I communicated to them the tasks and procedures. Do you think it will come across as passive aggressive if I start sending minutes, insisting on emails instead of chats and putting my boss in cc for all communication?

    2. Chaordic One*

      It is certainly ok to document all communication with someone. I don’t know what the particular unit’s problems are, but it might well help them to have written instructions to work from (something you might send in an email), as well as having a paper trail to demonstrate that you did, indeed, communicate to them. (It never hurts to CYA.)

      Under the circumstances I wouldn’t find it passive aggressive (but who knows how the people in this difficult unit might interpret it). It may be seen as you becoming a micro-manager, but under the circumstances that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I don’t know that you need to cc your boss on all of these communications or send email instead of chats, but sending an email to reiterate what was discussed in your chats is certainly a good idea.

      1. WorkHabits*

        Thanks. Concerning having “written instructions” being good for them:

        They already have written instructions which I keep up-to-date all the time to make it easier for them. But they still complained about my being disorganised. So now it’s more about securing I have done everything possible to prove that if necessary.

        1. Chaordic One*

          After things quiet down a bit, and I’m hopeful that they will, do make a point of praising the unit when (and if) they do good work on a particular project. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn’t.

          It would be interesting to see if there’s a ringleader who is encouraging the unit not to follow instructions (There might not be) or if this particular unit is just particularly dim.

          1. lola*

            They are just very disorganised and have this awful habit of blaming others for their incomprehension. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water… I just don’t see what I could do more to help them, but their unfair criticism made me want to treat them just like everybody else. Even more so as they didn’t turn to me with suggestions what could be done better – I’m very open to such things – but to my boss.

    3. Marisol*

      it’s not passive aggressive, it’s aggressive, and so what if it is? Sometimes you need to send the message that you are not putting up with bs anymore. They’re jerking you around. It might be time to play hardball.

  197. Lone Data Nerd*

    Sooooo, I have so many questions.

    I am a data nerd, the only one in my department, and I handle all analytical and technical needs for the team. I was brought on as an Associate Data Nerd a year and a half ago, however in October the Lead Data Nerd left for an internal transfer, leaving me the Lead Data Nerd.

    But not really – I vouched for myself and got a pay bump, but my official title is still Associate Data Nerd. Since then I have led a major project from start to finish and I feel I’ve shown my competency. My questions are: if I want the title change more than an additional pay bump, should I start with asking for that? I’ve heard that asking for more sets the bar and it’s easier to negotiate down than up.

    However, I’m pessimistic about my manager approving my request. I was rebuffed and told to wait for regular performance rivals last time I asked, which would begin in October. It’s not that far away; should I just wait it out?

    And my third question because of course I have another. Due to being the lone Data Nerd in the department, I’m very essential. They have no true redundancy if I left. In many ways, I feel this isn’t reflected due to my title and paygrade being 4 tiers lower than that of my non-technical counterparts. Is there any way to leverage my unique skills in this type of negotiation? (I have been looking at other jobs, both internal and external, but am not keen on using another offer to try and argue my worth.)

    1. Henry*

      How much experience did the Lead Data Nerd have in comparison to you? Have you discussed moving into that role with the former Lead Data Nerd? Would your job duties change significantly for the better? As long as there is a performance review approaching, use that time to make the strongest case possible. If they haven’t posted a job ad for the position they may already view you as the natural successor. It seems like the title is something easy for them to give but you may also be underpaid so don’t short change yourself. You may need to demonstrate different skills besides the technical skills to perform your job such as strategic planning and the ability to manage others. You don’t need to threaten changing jobs but be ready to interview elsewhere if you are being underpaid and unappreciated.

      1. Lone Data Nerd*

        She had a similar amount of experience (within a year of what I have), and I’ve already taken over the role of Lead Data Nerd in every way except title (from my perspective). In my view, I’ve already done project management and strategic thinking when the Associate Data Nerd job description was always in support of the Lead Data Nerd.

        Thanks for the input. I’m already beginning to feel impatient, and I’ve been doing some research into other opportunities in case things don’t go as I’d like. I’m still debating whether to ask about it soon (August) if the evaluations are only a few months later. Eh it does seem silly to push now, rather than simply being prepared.

  198. Shrunken Hippo*

    I’ve been diagnosed with severe depression and I am currently looking for work. Having just left university a year ago I don’t have much job experience. I was undiagnosed while in school but I managed to get through by only working temporary or seasonal positions and only taking three or four courses a semester. Any tips for how to cope during the job hunt and when I do get a job? I’ve read a lot and been told some things by my doctor, but I was wondering if there are any others with my problem who have found inventive ways of pushing through even on the bad days. Thanks in advance!

    1. WorkHabits*

      That’s difficult. I’ve also been struggling with depression for several years and searching for jobs is tricky.

      There is plenty of advice online about having a routine, physical activities, etc. But I haven’t found anything that would really have a positive influence yet.

    2. Panda Bandit*

      Do you have a therapist? Professional advice specifically tailored to you is awesome. Medication can also be helpful. I’m finding that mine won’t let my mood drop down very far. Without knowing any details, I can offer a couple of tips.

      Self care and time for yourself: Make sure you’re getting enough sleep, eating regular healthy meals, getting exercise and some relaxation and fun time. Job hunting shouldn’t take over every waking minute of your life. People do better when they have some breaks.

      Focus on the journey and what you can do: Writing a cover letter, writing a resume, and simply applying to a place are all accomplishments. When you finish doing any of those, recognize it and pat yourself on the back.

  199. B&B*

    I am thinking about going into the medical transcription field. Could anyone out in AAM land recommend an accredited online school, or which companies hire from which schools? I live in Canada, currently have a full-time job, and would need to do my training online.

    1. Chaordic One*

      Before you do this do some research and see if there are any doctors who live near you who actually hire medical transcriptionists. I’ve heard that this can be a difficult field to break into and there are an awful lot of stories about people who take these courses, get certificates, and then can’t find work (even if they’re good at it).

    2. Book Lover*

      I am not sure it is the same in Canada, but in the US a lot of people are moving towards transcription tools and even direct entry, so I am not sure it has a great future?

  200. Chickaletta*

    Soooo, I stuck my foot in my mouth big time yesterday and got reprimanded for it. I’ve never, ever, in my 20-year experience been disciplined at work and I feel terrible about the whole thing. My big, sarcastic mouth finally got me in trouble because I said something to someone who was having a conversation with my supervisor, which I could overhear because our cubes are right next to each other, not realizing it was a personal issue for them instead of a business one and I made assumptions all over the place. Apologies were made, promises to not let it happen again, etc. But I still feel bad. Plus, I have to learn to watch what I say, which is going to be difficult at times because I have a sarcastic sense of humor, and must learn to stifle bursts of laughter at ironic situations because other people might not find it amusing.

    Whew. Wish it was still the 60s where you could drink at work.

  201. ONFM*

    Any tips on how to break into an all-male network of executives? Or whether I should even try?

    I’m poised to take a big promotion that would place me at the top tier of my organization, which is almost exclusively male (I would be the second female) and older (I would be the youngest by at least ten years). I’m on great terms with half of them, and the other half is the embodiment of the good old boys club – long lunches, golf outings on Fridays where decisions get discussed and made, etc. For the most part they are cordial, but I clearly don’t fit in.

    So my question is…do I try? What to I do? I’ve seriously considered things like golf lessons, but I feel like saying “I play!” is embarrassing and annoying kid sister-ish. I’ve always been professional and let my work speak for itself, which is how I’ve gotten here, but now it seems that I need more. Any general advice? (For reference, the other woman was recently passed over for a promotion, is very openly angry about it, and is now retiring with the year, so I can’t model myself after her.)

    1. Chickaletta*

      I think there ARE men out there who learn to play golf so that they can be part of the Friday afternoon games. A lot of boys are taught from a young age that sports are how you make friends and this carries over into adulthood. So, learning how to play golf is just the kind of strategy men would use, don’t dismiss it right away.

      The reason why it’s an old boys club is important too. Is it a religious thing, a cultural thing? I’ve seen women break into the later groups when they’re confident, reassured, and willing to get back in the game over and over and not let one or two punches knock them down. Prove your worth (know it sucks because we have to work harder than men to prove we are capable), but once you show that you helped improve the bottom line, landed an important client, etc, it might help. Don’t take losses personally; get in there to win the war, not the battle.

  202. Foreign Octopus*

    Something interesting came up today regarding careers and relationships that I’d be interested in hearing people’s opinions on.

    My younger brother (YB) is in a fairly serious relationship (m/f) with a woman of his age. She has expressed a desire to join the police force, a move that would be a complete career change for her as she currently runs her own business selling jewellery and paintings, and is looking into that. I hear from my mother (all this is second hand) that YB is upset because his girlfriend wants to do this – apparently it’s because she’s tiny (5ft 2in) and he’s worried about her.

    My initial reaction was to tell him to get a grip. It’s not his life and he can either support her or get the hell out of her way.

    It made me think about people in relationships and career decisions/moves. A couple of times on AAM, I’ve seen people mention discussing job offers with partners and, of course, those strange and peculiar letters that spill over into worrying control issues that are just baffling (the woman who’s husband emailed HR about their decision for her to leave her job, or something similar, as an example). When I was working in recruitment, a lot of candidates said that they needed to discuss the offer with their partners as well.

    My gut reaction is to recoil from that. My skin crawls whenever anyone mentions talking to significant others about decisions like these. I can see using them as sounding boards but ultimately I believe that the decision is up to the person who is going to have to work the job.

    I suppose my question is, where is the line drawn with partners and career decisions? At what point does a person have to step back and say, actually, this is my decision?

    Full disclaimer: I am a single woman, happily so, and I’ve never had, nor wanted, a serious relationship and so I am very independent and get annoyed at anything I view that encroaches on my autonomy.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ooooh, can I use this question as its own post this week? I think it’s fascinating but worry there won’t be many responses this late in the open thread.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Alison, you’ve made my day!

        Feel free to use it. I’d love to hear what people have to say.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      If you’re in a serious relationship you aren’t autonomous.

      I’ll save the rest of my view for the upcoming post!

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I’m intrigued! I’ll keep an eye out for your comment!

        Enjoy your Sunday.

      2. Chickaletta*

        Agreed. And I can think of several occupations that have a direct impact on the spouse/significant other: religious (pastors, priests, imams, etc), politicians, jobs with significant travel or relocation, and jobs that carry significant risk (military, policing, etc) If someone wants one of these kinds of careers without the support of their spouse, the relationship or the career is probably doomed.

        1. Zip Zap*

          Yeah, it’s a matter of how it affects the partner. But that isn’t always clear cut. For example, relocation obviously affects the partner. But what about working odd hours? Being in the public eye for something controversial or something the partner disagrees with? I think it depends on the kind of relationship you have. But if you have strong disagreements about career paths, you probably have other differences. It could be a symptom of a larger problem.

    3. Xanderson*

      My partner with whom I have a house and mortgage has just been accepted on to the police force. Shes 5 foot 4(ish I think), and will be taking an £8k drop in pay to join. This career move has never been a discussion as I want her to be happy in her work. I’ll worry about her on shift sure, but surely your partner being happy in their work is more important than anything?

  203. atexit8*

    Redux

    A few months ago, I had applied to a job and even received a call from the owner.
    I never heard back. I never did follow-up figuring no news is bad news.

    Anyway, this past Monday I applied to a job on Craigslist and it turns out it is for the same company.
    And the person who emails me is again the owner.

    I don’t know if he bothered to read the resume I attached.
    I don’t know if he remembers me even if he had read the resume.

    Do I even mention anything when I call back?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      I wouldn’t. I’d just approach this process as if you are a brand-new candidate. And, if he didn’t see or read your prior application from months ago, you really are brand-new to the owner. Good luck with the phone screen! I hope it leads to an in-person interview or job offer.

  204. Zip Zap*

    Is it just me or are the letters getting crazier? There is some scary stuff going on in offices these days! Makes me happy to be self-employed for now.

    (I realize it’s probably because AAM has become more popular and Allison has more to choose from. I hope.)

  205. Kali*

    Just a rant here!

    A few years ago – 2011 – I worked at a McDonalds. It was fine; not my ultimate career goal, but not a bad job (apart from the number of people who assumed I must be a bit thick because I worked at McDonalds). Then an eighteen-year-old bully started working there. Every shift, he’d pick a random person to follow around so he could tell them exactly what he thought they were doing wrong. Our grill lady had been an accountant in her home country, but wasn’t able to find similar work here. He did that to her, and she transferred to another store. I was the lobby hostess. He decided that, when we parked cars for large orders, it was my job specifically to carry the food out when it was ready. I didn’t object to doing this sometimes, but if it meant that I couldn’t do my actual job or if I didn’t feel safe, I’d refuse, as it wasn’t actually my job. I sought clarification from the store manager on that, and he agreed; it is actually the manager’s job to do that, especially in the dark. NB. I’d recently been the victim of an assault, and some customers could be quite creepy. I mostly remember one who sat in his car muttering “sexy devil sexy devil” when you approached him. That’s not even getting in to the group of teenage boys who liked to come in and make sexual comments to me. One of the managers did keep them out once, and said they were banned. The next time I saw them in the store I asked him to kick them out again and he said “it’s okay, they’ve apologised to me”. FFS.

    Anyway, the carrying food out reached a peak one day when I was cleaning the staff toilets. 18-year-old brat brought a bag of food in to me, told me it was my job to carry it out, and left it on the crew-room table. I couldn’t even follow him until I’d taken my gloves off and washed my hands, which meant the customer was waiting for a solid two-three minutes longer than if he’d just taken the bag himself, which affected the store’s productivity score. When I finally got out there with the food, I asked which car it was going to and he said “I don’t know, find it yourself”. I told him to f*** off, dropped the bag and went back to my actual job. The store manager did speak to me about it, but nothing came of it once I’d explained my side.

    The day that kid was made a manager, I handed in my notice. I think he was close friends with the store manager, and I know he hung out with the other managers a lot.

  206. Rachel Paterson*

    My male coworker expressed some hurt feelings from something our female supervisor said to him, on a Facebook group she doesn’t follow. The topic was sexism in the Japanese workplace (we are English teachers in Japan), and he said in the comments that he didn’t appreciate remarks like the one he received recently. He has a serious hip problem with chronic severe pain (that’s being surgically repaired over summer break, yay!), and our supervisor told him something along the lines of “(even if pain keeps you from doing your job properly), at least you will still be handsome and can be a model!” And comments about how “men feel pain 6x more than women, so if they had to have babies they would die.”
    My question is this – should I say anything to my supervisor? We have a good relationship, she is very easygoing, and I know that these remarks were jokes, but intent doesn’t mean my coworker didn’t feel offended. There’s the culture difference to consider, where gender roles are rather sharply divided in certain areas of life… And if a man made similar comments to a female subordinate, it would be out of line, right?

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