open thread – August 4-5, 2017

by Alison Green on August 4, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

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  1. anon24*

    So out of curiosity, how do you commute and how long does it take you? And if you drive, what kind of roads (highways, back roads, etc) do you take?

    1. anon24*

      Been doing a lot of personal travel during rush hour lately and I keep thinking about all the people sharing the road with me and how they are going to work and I am not and it makes me very curious! (The things you think while stuck alone in a car on the highway)

      1. Loopy*

        35 minutes with no traffic and up to 55 in the heaviest traffic. Going home is usually 45 minutes and it’s absolutely my upper limit!

        It’s highway and main roads. It’s the crappiest commute I’ve had so far. I don’t know how people survive worse!

        1. Julianne*

          Mine is about the same. If I’m able to leave school right at dismissal (elementary school teacher), my commute home is the same length as my commute in (25 minutes). On the Friday of Memorial Day weekend, it took me 95 minutes to get home, and I briefly considered abandoning my car and just walking the last 3 miles. (This is only slightly hyperbolic.)

      3. Fabulous*

        My commute is 20-25 minutes on the highway without traffic. If there’s congestion, I’ll usually switch to the backroads instead of being stuck for god knows how long. I prefer to be moving rather than stop and go…

      4. Rockhopper*

        Just moved 2 weeks ago and now I have a 5 minute suburban roads type commute which I am loving. Looking forward to cooler weather to try biking.

      5. Artemesia*

        We bought houses with commuting in mind which mean in the city and our kids went to city schools rather than suburban schools. I could when the kids were small deliver both to school or day care and be at work in about 20 minutes. When they were older we moved further out but still in the city and my commute stayed about 20 minutes because the kids could walk or take the bus to school.

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        25 minutes by car on the highway with limited traffic (no public transit option), but I have to be very tricky about how I time my commute. In heavy traffic, it can range 45-55 minutes. In insane circumstances (e.g., car accident on the causeway; heavy flooding on feeder roads) it can take 2+ hours. It’s the only time I’ve lived anywhere where there aren’t side streets or country roads.

      7. Pam*

        20 minutes, short freeway commute. Since I’m heading away from Los Angeles, there’s less traffic.

      8. Batshua*

        Usually less than 20 minutes. Residential streets and … whatever they’re called before they’re minor highways (arteries?) and minor highways (one lane each way, not a more than 35 mph on the stretches I use).

        It’s still a little too long for me because technically the drive can be done in 10m, but it usually takes me about 17.

      9. Eliza*

        20 minutes with very little traffic. Combination of highway and back roads. (minimum speed limit 45 and maximum 55mph). It gives me long enough to mentally prepare for the day (I cherish the alone time), but not too long.

      10. Michael in Boston*

        In the morning, I walk about 6-8 minutes to the subway. Then a ride on the train about 3 minutes. Then walk about 8-10 minutes to the office from my stop. However, in winter, the morning walk to the train can take up to double the amount of time with poorly shoveled snow or ice on the side walks; the walk to the office is about the same because the sidewalks are kept clear of ice and snow. But from my apartment to the station, I have to walk over an overpass that almost never gets sidewalks properly maintained once it snows or precipitation becomes freezing rain.

      11. Simone R*

        13 minute walk to the stop for the free shuttle run by my institution then 15-40 min on the shuttle depending on traffic across the city. After years on public transit the shuttle is amazing-a guaranteed seat and way less gross.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      It’s about 25 minutes out, 35-40 minutes home, via back roads. I love my commute — especially where I drive by a breeding stable, and have been watching the foals grow all spring and summer.

      1. BF50*

        20 minutes by car on a combination of state highways & city streets.
        I have an adjusted schedule where I arrive before 8am to avoid traffic. Otherwise it would be 30-40 minutes and I’d switch state highways, skip the city streets and add backroads.

        My commute is quite scenic and nice whichever way I take, but I prefer the predictability of the earlier commute.

    6. Alucius*

      about 55 min…highway to start, then back roads, then city roads. We live close to my wife’s job and let me do the lengthy commute since I’m in academia and don’t have to clock in/out at specific hours.

    9. Nancy Drew*

      I commute by car, my drive is 14 minutes, all highway. It’s an easy drive with little traffic (most people in my city travel the opposite direction), so I love it.

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Similar here. I jump on the highway and it’s 25 minutes door to door, and I’m going in the opposite direction.
        I used to work in the city, four point zero miles door to parking lot. Took 35 to 40 minutes of sitting at lights and merging.

    10. Kvothe*

      I have the best commute either about 2 min by car or about a 10-15 min walk (but I have to cross a super busy street so I don’t walk often)…and we’re about to move to a new office which will actually decrease that even further

      1. anon24*

        My dad walked 10 minutes to work for the first 20 years of my life. He loved it and saved so much money on commuting!

      2. Dr. KMnO4*

        I see your 10 min walk and I raise (lower?) with a 5 min walk from my apartment to my office. :)

        1. Kms1025*

          And I’ll double down on that with the thirty second walk from my bedroom to my inhome office and my teleconnection to almost all things work related Best.Job.Ever.

    11. Ramona Flowers*

      Hour train to London, half hour tube train. I don’t mind it! I use the time to read and watch Netflix.

    13. k.k*

      I drive in an urban area, standard city streets. It’s only about 5 miles, but during rush hour takes 30-40 minutes. On the rare occasion that I’m coming/going during non-peak hours, it can be as little as 15 minutes.

      My city actually has great public transit which I’ve used for past jobs to avoid driving, but at my current location there isn’t a direct route, I would have to make several transfers so it would be much longer.

    14. Across The Sea*

      10-15 minutes by car on side streets. Living closer to work is the best decision that I ever made. I also go home at lunch to walk my dogs, so being close makes a huge difference.

    15. Amadeo*

      My commute is about 30 minutes. one-third country oil and chip backroads (as long as it’s not flooding) and the rest is open state highway.

    17. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This morning I left 20 minutes later than usual and only arrived about 10 minutes later than I normally do. So it varies. But on average, about 20 minutes, mostly highway (we are located right off the main highway here). If I don’t want to sit in traffic I can take back roads, and that adds about five minutes to my trip. It’s a very sane commute.

    18. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I commute by car; it takes 10-15 minutes. I really should ride a bike, but I haven’t ridden since I was a kid and I’m a weenie.

    19. Snark*

      By car. It takes about 18-20 minutes, 60% on surface streets with a 45mph limit and 40% on a 55mph bypass. I never run into traffic. It’s glorious, especially after hour commutes in Texas.

    20. Rincat*

      My commute depends on who is taking care of my daughter that day. I live in DFW, If I’m going to my in-laws’, I mostly take back roads through the south of the metroplex since they kind of live out in the country. Then I take highway to get to my work. If I’m dropping her off at my friend’s, I take highway the whole time because they live more in the center of Fort Worth. All total it’s about 1-1.5 hours in the morning. In the afternoon it’s about 30 minutes because my husband picks her up on his way home.

    21. Ash (the other one)*

      45 min to 1hr15min depending on traffic. On weekends it takes me 15 minutes. Oh, life in the DC Metro Area.

    22. kittymommy*

      20 min. with no traffic. With traffic it can be up to 40 minutes. My work is a pretty straight shot on a state highway.

    23. Red Reader*

      Usually my commute consists of “get down the stairs without tripping over a dog or cat” and it takes me about a minute and a half to get to my office.

      But when I have to go on-site, my two most common options are 15 minute on the expressway to one location or about 30 minutes on a main surface road to the other.

    26. Naptime Enthusiast*

      45ish minutes, 90% highway. I get in early though so I miss the majority of the city traffic.

    27. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Finally found a few side streets that work. Was taking me almost an hour to get home (traffic + construction…god bless the Chicago metro area) now I have it down to just about 45. I don’t particularly enjoy it, but it doesn’t make me want to rip my hair out anymore.

      1. Emmie*

        That’s a big change for Chicago! I used to commute between the North Side Lakefront to the burbs. 1 1/2 hours each way – except on Friday nights when it’d be 2 hours home.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          It is! Granted, I’m in the suburbs not Chicago itself. But close enough that traffic patterns are the same. But, regardless, I’m quite pleased with my extra 15 minutes. (And I’m taking my route to my grave, I do not want other people discovering it…)

          1. ThatGirl*

            I live in the Chicago burbs and used to commute from central DuPage Co to the Northbrook area … now I work 15 minutes west of home, and it’s amazing.

      2. Pearly Girl*

        I drive 10 miles from the N suburbs to the very edge of Chicago. 20-25 minutes there, 30 minutes in the evening, no highway.

        1. Emmie*

          That’s not so bad for a Chi commute. :) I found that parking and walking to my car added to my commute too, but I didn’t put those in my driving times.

    28. Nonprofit Lady*

      I usually drive, although I occasionally take the bus (< 1 time per month). I live on the outskirts of a medium city, and I work downtown. It usually takes me about 20 minutes to get in, via mostly highway. When the roads are bad (say, in snow), I will take major roads in instead of highway.

    29. Kalamet*

      My commute is 15-20 minutes during the summer and 30-60 minutes during the rest of hte year (school makes a huge difference). I wouldn’t mind the time, but I live in a area with notoriously bad drivers. I get people who turn out in front of me at the last minute, cut me off, and tailgate six inches off my bumper. Every. Single. Day. I used to like this town, but I know I’ll move away eventually just because of how people drive here.

    30. EddieSherbert*

      I currently commute 10 minutes by bike (or in awful weather, like 4 minutes by car) . It’s the best.

      Can’t imagine I’ll ever have it this good again, hahaha.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I would love to become someone who bikes to work, but the thought of navigating city streets terrifies me!

        1. JustaTech*

          Me too! Sometimes during the training season I will run to work, but between the rain, hills and drivers I’ve given up on every cycling to work. Now, if I lived on one of the big pedestrian/cycle paths that ended close to work, maybe then I would try.

        2. EddieSherbert*

          I get nervous about that too – I’m lucky enough that I can go through my neighborhood, cut through a park, and just cross one busy-ish road to get into the neighborhood my work building backs up to (so I come in the back entrance).

    31. Larina*

      My commute used to be one hour (25 miles or so) to work, and one hour to one and a half hours on the way home (more traffic for some reason). I hated it, so I moved 7 minutes away from my office. now if it takes me 10 minutes to get to work, it’s because a road is closed for construction and I have to go the long way around.

    32. Boo*

      20 hours a week, door to door. I bus to the station in the morning, get a train and then a tube. On the way home, it’s tube – train – walk. I like the walk as it help me unwind, tires out my body and means I don’t have to pay for the gym ;)

    34. stitchinthyme*

      I live in the DC suburbs, where traffic is the norm; work is northwest of home, and most of the commuters are going east into the city, so the east-west part of my commute is always against the rush. However, there are no major north-south highways in my area, so that bit always sucks. Tends to take a half-hour to 45 minutes (usually less in the morning, more later unless I leave later than usual), pretty much all on back roads. But I carpool with my husband, who works in the next town over, so that helps — we drive to a gym near his office and work out most mornings, then I drop him off and go to my office, and pick him up later. We take separate cars only if one or both of us have something else going on that day, like a doctor’s appointment or something.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        I leave early. I’m on a 6:30am bus and I get to my office in about 35-40 minutes.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          I can barely manage to make myself get up at 6:30am! That’s when my alarm goes off; takes us another 10 minutes or so to stagger out of bed, and we’re usually out the door around 7 since we’re heading for the gym (so no need to shower first).

    35. OtterB*

      Drive. 30 minutes in if I go early, which I prefer and usually can; goes up to almost an hour if I leave at peak traffic. Return trip is normally about 45 minutes, can be closer to an hour. All city streets.

      I used to take Metro (DC area) which is about 45-60 minutes each way door to door, but I seldom do that any more.

    36. D.W.*

      I walk one mile to the subway, which usually takes me about 15 minutes. My train ride is 15 minutes (w/o delays), and then I walk another 5 min to my building. If everything goes smoothly, my commute door-to-door is 35minutes.

      2. thunderbird*

        Basically the same for me. 10-12 min walk to the subway, 15 minute ride and there is an internal path that connects to my building (5 min walk).

        1. D.W.*

          That’s really nice, especially in extreme temperatures and weather. I do get spend about 4/5 min walk on an internal path, but I eventually have to exit. Just to cross the street. I’m still grateful!

        2. matcha123*

          Same! Except my train is 11 minutes if it’s running without delay. The station is connected to my office, which is nice on rainy days.

    38. Emi.*

      By bus and subway; about an hour door-to-door. This is kind of a pain, but I get my transit card subsidized so it’s free money-wise, and I get some reading time.

    39. Hakky Chan*

      10-15 minutes, all city streets, but I do also drive through two school zones on the way.

    40. Murphy*

      I recently went from a 7 minute drive mostly along one busy main road to 15-20 minutes, about half on highway, half on a busy main road. (And the new drive is from my house to my daughter’s daycare, which is about 5 minutes from work.) Takes me about 20-25 minutes to get home from daycare in the evening. They’re widening the highway, which I think will make it better, but I really can’t complain.

    41. NewBoss2016*

      I used to commute from a major metropolitan area to my job in a small suburb. It was 26 miles each way, but it was entirely highway and I could drive 70 mph. If I didn’t leave at exactly the right time, it would take 45 minutes to get there and back. If I left early in the morning, I only had a 20-25 minute drive tops. I foolishly decided to move 15 miles past my office into the country. I thought it would be so much easier with my demanding job. It is all farm to market roads with 60 mph speed limits. I get stopped/slowed down often by farm equipment, but that is a given so I am okay with that. What does kind of drive my crazy is nobody seems to drive the speed limit or close to it. Most people do 40-45 mph until there is a mile long train going down the road, and some people do 75-80. It just seems dangerous and takes *at least* 35 minutes each way on a good day.

      My husband was re-located to a different office after the country move, and now drives 1 hr and 15 minutes each way. This is on a good day with little traffic. It is often 2 hours each way. I have offered to move to the city, but he says the driving doesn’t bother him.

    42. ZedForZebra*

      I take the subway and walk, and it’s about an hour door to door. The train ride is about 35 minutes and walking is about 25.

    45. Olive Hornby*

      30-40 minutes by subway, depending on which train I take (if it’s raining or snowing, I’ll take a local train closer to my apartment; otherwise, I usually walk 5-10 minutes to the express train, which makes the trip in 15 minutes.)

    46. CatCat*

      I vary how I get to work:

      * Bike: Takes about 40-45 mins door to door. I go through downtown city streets, a bike path, and suburban streets. More circuitous than driving.
      * Bike + bus: Takes about the same amount of time as just biking, but when the weather is stupid hot in the afternoon, it is better than biking.
      * Drive: Takes about 10-20 mins via downtown, the freeway, then suburban streets.
      * Walk + bus: Takes an hour. It takes so long because my work is 2/3 – 3/4 of a mile (depending on inbound or outbound) from the nearest bus stop and then I have to change buses downtown.

    47. Xarcady*

      It’s about 12-15 minutes, door to door, depending on how many red lights I hit. Living and working in the same city, there are several routes I can take. Oddly, the longest, in terms of time, is the expressway. Between my house and the on-ramp, a distance of 1/4 mile, there are 4 traffic lights, and in the 3/4 mile from the exit ramp to work, there are 5 lights. But I can drive the city streets for five miles and have only 4 5 lights the entire way.

      It would be a shorter commute, but currently one bridge is closed for the summer for repairs and another is being completely rebuilt and is closed for a year. Those bridges shave off about 4-5 minutes each way.

      There’s a bus, but it involves a mile walk to the bus stop, the bus only comes once an hour, I have to ask to be let off as my office isn’t a regular stop and half the time the drivers forget, and it lets me off 45 minutes early or 15 late, and, including the walk to the bus stop, takes about an hour one way. Going home I have to call the bus company to ask them to pretty please stop at my office, or walk 2.5 miles to the nearest stop. It’s okay when the car is in the shop, but way too time consuming on a daily basis.

    48. AVP*

      30-40 minutes. Two subways plus a 7-minute walk. Pretty easy considering I can read for 90% of it, and I get a seat about half the time.

    49. OhNo*

      I travel about a mile on downtown streets, by bus. Sometimes I walk, if it’s especially nice out. Either way, it takes me about 30 minutes door-to-door.

    50. john watson*

      I drive and it takes 30-60 minutes depending on traffic (the freeway goes past one of the major universities and I work in an area with tons of other businesses, so it snags up pretty easily).

    52. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

      I commute by car and it takes me between 35 to an hour on major highways for 95% of my trip. For the DMV area, it’s not the worst commute I’ve had but I live south of where my job is so I get lots of beach traffic on a Friday.

    53. Anna*

      The morning school run is 45 minutes to 2 schools. It’s mostly city streets with a bit of interstate.

      It used to be 3 schools from a rural county and lasted 2.5 hours with good traffic. That one was 1/2 rural country roads, 1/3rd interstate (and just forget making the morning bell if there was an accident on the interstate) and the rest city streets.

    54. Lynne879*

      For my weekday job, it takes me 40 min /28 miles each way to get to and from work during the summer. The rest of the year, it’s about an hour. With ZERO traffic in the middle of the night it takes me 30 min. I drive on highways & on a major city beltway.

      My weekend job is fairly close to my house & it takes me 10-15 min depending on traffic lights.

    55. ThatGirl*

      Both driving…

      Old job: 45-60 minutes on interstate and/or major arterial roads. (I had two routes to choose from, one nearly all interstate, one interstate + arterial)

      New job: 13-20 minutes on interstate + little arterial or major arterial (three main routes to choose from)

    56. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I have a 45 minute drive (about 33 miles) with no traffic one way. It’s almost all highway.

    57. Avid reader infrequent commenter*

      I walk. Out my door, down the townhome complex driveway, across the street, across the building parking lot, into the back door, down the hallway into my office.

      I KNOW. Super exhausting. Much hard.

    58. JustaTech*

      20 minutes in average traffic (during the school year, non-holiday) all residential or surface streets, though I do pass entrances to the interstate that can slow me down when traffic is bad there.
      I’ve had the exact same commute for 11 years (and two jobs!) and I really, really appreciate it.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh, yeah, this is by car, living and working in a city, ~4 miles each way. If I take the bus it’s 2 buses (or the one super special bus) and at least an hour. And a change in a super sketchy spot. And a ride on the bus where my SO got pinkeye. Or the other way is I think 3 buses and goes through the university.
        In the running season I run into work one day a week and Car2Go or ReachNow or Lyft home.

    59. Trig*

      My office is 15 minutes by bike in the summer on almost exclusively bike paths or segregated bike lanes, 45 minutes walking in the winter. I tend to work from home more in the winter, but there’s a short stretch of winter where I can SKATE most of the way and it only takes 30 minutes. It’s a delight.

      With traffic it would take more like 20-30 minutes to drive and then a bajillion dollars to park. Even the bus takes longer than biking.

      And my coworkers STILL wonder why I don’t want to buy a house in the suburbs!

      Also, in this thread I learned the term ‘surface streets’.

      1. onnellinen*

        Are you in Ottawa? It’s the only place I can think of where ‘skating’ is a winter commute option!

        1. Trig*

          Nail on the head. :) Though I *think* you can sometimes skate on canals in Scandinavian cities, when the weather obliges. It’s just not as regular and maintained a thing.

    60. Heaven*

      I travel by bus and it’s a nightmare. If I could afford driving lessons, buying and then running a car, I’d definitely switch to driving, but part time on £7.05 p/h makes it kind of impossible.

      The buses I use are late 75% of the time, and there are three… Which all come within several minutes of each other twice an hour, so I’m left with choosing between arriving at work over an hour early or risking being late. Even worse is when there’s a driver shift change in the middle of the journey and the drivers of the bus already running late decide to just stand around and gossip for several minutes. Like… Don’t mind us, it’s not like your passengers have anywhere to be!

      Filed under: reasons I want to work in a large city with a reliable, cheap public transport system.

      1. Heaven*

        And I was so busy moaning I forgot to say how long my commute takes. The actual bus journey should take 30-45 minutes depending on the route and time of day, but factoring in traffic and late buses and waiting for buses it’s usually approaching or over an hour. For a journey that takes ~20 minutes by car.

    62. Kowalski! Options!*

      I commute by bus, and if I hit the connections right, I can be at work in 20-25 minutes in the morning. In the afternoon, there’s a bus that goes directly from my office complex past my neighborhood, so it can be as fast as 15-20 minutes on the way home (depending on the traffic and how aggressive the bus driver is feeling). don’t know how much quicker it’d be if I went by car (and I don’t currently own one), so I’m happy with the commute as it is. I try to bike to work twice a week, too (all but about 200 yards of it on bike trails!!), but that takes about 40-45 minutes, and some days I can’t be bothered.

    63. Emily S.*

      I’m lucky to have a short commute, ~15 minutes, on mostly city roads and a small stretch of highway.

      It’s so great to be home at 5:15 pm after a long workday!

    65. Allie Oops*

      45 minutes on podunk rural roads. I could get there in 30 minutes via highway, but it’s been under construction since the Bronze Age, and I’ve grown to love the farm scenery.

    66. JanetM*

      I drive; it’s currently about 30 minutes mostly on a very busy US Highway. I moved, a few months ago, from one building to another on campus, and that cut my commute by about 10 minutes.

      More detailed:
      * One block on residential to get out of my subdivision.
      * Four miles rural state route to get to the US highway
      * One mile on the US highway to the other US highway
      * Fifteen miles on the US highway (very busy and under construction) to the main road through the city where I work
      * Less than a mile on the main road to my building

      If there were good — heck, ANY — public transit between the city where I work and the town where I live, I would do that in a heartbeat, at least several days a week. I’d prefer buses, since that seems to require a lot less infrastructure than light rail and runs on existing roads, rather than tearing up more land.

    67. RabbitRabbit*

      About an hour door to door in the morning, a little over in the evening. That includes a couple blocks’ walk to the train station, the train trip, waiting for the work-provided shuttle, and the shuttle trip to work, which stops outside my building on our campus. Then reverse it in the evening, where traffic slows down the shuttle so that part takes longer and can play with what train I take home.

    68. Justme*

      Fifteen minutes because I drop my kid off at school (25 over the summer when care is farther from home). All fairly busy surface roads after I leave my neighborhood.

    69. Menacia*

      30 minutes one way was my fastest time (does not happen often), 3 hours was the longest time (one way, during a blizzard, this happened twice), norm is usually 45 minutes. The drive was longer when I lived farther away, moved closer after working here for 3 years.

      I take a two lane highway (have been driving it for 13 years now) which at one time might have been fine but the number of cars that use it has grown exponentially and I’ve experienced the negative effects of that over the years. It’s supposed to be a “scenic” highway for leisurely driving (55 mph) but myself (and many others) regularly drive 70 and above.

    70. Anna*

      I used to drive 40 minutes each way to work via car. I would go across traffic, which was so easy. I took main roads, though.

      Right now I take main roads, travel via car, and it takes between 10 and 20 minutes, depending on day. When I worked downtown I used public transportation on a commuter line and it was a 30 minute ride.

    71. Beancounter Eric*

      “Normal” traffic morning – 60 minutes. Evening – 45 minutes. Four-lane, non-Interstate. When I used the interstate at oldjob – 45min on an extremely good day, average around 60 minutes. 2 hours was worst “normal” morning (several collisions impacting route). Absolute worst was 12 hours (Atlanta snow several years ago)

      Current commute – about 23 miles one-way – old job was 25 miles.

    72. JustaCPA*

      about 15-20 minutes on 4 lane road with center turn lane. Usually some traffic and there are a number of lights but its not bad. A bad day turns it to 30 minutes. I usually have more traffic coming home (anywhere from 4:30-5:30) then going to work (7 AM)

    73. Teapot Librarian*

      25-30 minutes by foot. I had to drive downtown during rush hour a few weeks ago and I about lost my mind. I am a VERY patient person (sometimes to a fault!) and I was ready to lay on my horn in frustration. More power to all of you who drive to work and maintain your cool.

    74. Calacademic*

      80-90 minutes, depending on traffic. (Bay Area). The morning is easy to plan: 15 minutes to walk to the bus terminal, ~30 minute bus ride, ~10 minute BART ride, ~15 minutes walk to work. The fact that it is broken up into bits makes it feel less bad, and the walking is part of how I get my daily exercise.

      1. It's Business Time*

        I am currently at 1.5 hrs – car/bus to BART & then 1 hr BART ride into SF. I used to have to catch Bus / BART / CALTRAIN / Bus shuttle when I worked on the Penninsula – that was at least 2 – 2.5 hrs each way

    75. Bagpuss*

      About 12 minutes in, 8 minutes home (one way system)
      Rural roads and small town.
      I moved about 3 years ago, and the change from 45 minutes each way to about 10 was wonderful!

    76. Xay*

      I commute by car. It’s a 15-20 minute drive with a combination of highway and surface roads. I could do surface roads only, but that would take closer to 30-35 minutes.

      My job is very close to a train station and I am looking for homes where I could commute by train. It just doesn’t make sense where I live now.

    77. Callalily*

      I have to take the bus to work. It takes 30 minutes by bus plus a 15 minute walk from the terminal to my office – so a 45 minute total commute.

      If I had a vehicle my commute would be 20 minutes.

      If I hadn’t moved and could still walk to work – it would be 5 minutes.

    78. OlympiasEpiriot*

      20 min each way door-to-door when everything works: Walk to bus stop, bus to subway, walk from subway to office. Reverse in evening. Total 40 min/day

    80. Admin of Sys*

      ~15 minutes by car, back roads, since I started the new job. But I miss the 20+ minutes on the bus, I could catch up on email and such.

    82. Pwyll*

      I have a love-hate relationship with the subway. Takes me 30-60 minutes depending on whether it’s running on schedule, but parking in the city is upwards of $75 per day and takes an hour during rush hour (there really isn’t a way to do back roads effectively to get into the city) so the train is just worth it.

    83. Kyrielle*

      So, I have a one-mile commute; I mostly drive, and it takes about five minutes. Suburban residential and feeder streets, nothing bigger. (I can walk it in 20 minutes, but then when I have to pick up the kids at the end of the day, I have to walk 20 minutes and…drive almost right back to where I was to get the first one, before continuing on to the second. That’s kind of silly.)

      It was hardly the only reason I took this job, but it was definitely one of the benefits I appreciated!

      Before I took this job two years ago, I had a 22 mile commute that was almost exclusively freeways – three separate freeways, the last of them running counter-commute but the other two not so much. It took 35 minutes each way at 3 am, but I wasn’t working that shift, so 1.5-2 hours a day were commonly spent on my commute. I am so, so, so glad to be done with that. I don’t know that anywhere could pay me enough to go back to that, now that I’m doing this. It’s so much better.

      1. Kyrielle*

        I _could_ have taken public transportation to that job, as an aside. If I drove to the local station and took the commuter rail, light rail, and a short bus ride, it would have been about two hours each way, though. (If I walked the mile from the light rail station instead of taking the bus, I think I could have shaved perhaps 15 minutes off that, but in many weathers that would not have been worth it.)

    84. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      20 to 45 minutes depending upon if school/class is in or not (I work at a major university). City streets.

    85. jmm*

      1 hr 15 mins on mostly country and suburban roads – including dropping off kids at 2 different schools. Thankfully, the schools and my office are only 10 minutes apart. I would say I wish I lived closer to work and my kids’ schools, but I have zero desire to live in that area.

    86. Sparkly Librarian*

      I can walk it in 40min, but I tend to leave the house too late (not a morning person) so I take the bus. Less than 15min if the bus shows up right away. Sometimes I have to wait a bit.

    87. mskyle*

      In order of frequency: 20-25 minutes by bike or motor scooter, 35-45 minutes by public transport, an hour walk, or 20-40 minutes by car (this is rare, parking is expensive and it takes too long). It’s about 4 miles.

    88. Kately*

      12-15 minutes by car, 22-25 by bike.

      The bike is by far the most pleasant option, through the river valley here. Regional Canadian city so the longest car commute would be maybe 35-40 minutes in ideal conditions? The bus service is terrible and basically double the time of driving, so a lot of us bike if it’s going to take that long. Unfortunately the bus won’t improve if more of us don’t take it, but 50 minutes one-way is a sacrifice not even I am willing to make.

    89. Optimistic Prime*

      I live in the ‘burbs so I drive. My commute takes me about 25 minutes in the morning, and about the same in the evening as long as I leave before 4:30 pm. (If I leave between 5 and 5:45, it takes me 45 minutes.) I take back roads and specifically moved to where I live because I wouldn’t have to take the highway to work. Traffic is notoriously bad in my metro.

    90. Adjunct Gal*

      About an hour on the back roads. It’s about the same if I took the highway, but the back roads are prettier, and I have 4 options for great ice cream on the way if I am so inclined.

    92. H.C.*

      45 minutes if driving (50/50 between surface streets and highways), a bit under an hour if I use public transport (light rail/subway)

    93. LizB*

      15-20 min via the highway. There are ways to get there via side streets, but they generally take longer, so I don’t use them unless the highway construction is REALLY bad.

    94. KMB213*

      My commute is 45 minutes, almost all highway, but my workplace itself is located on a back/country road about 5 miles from the highway. My SO’s apartment is about 5 miles from the highway, as well – the commute from his house is a shorter distance, but those 5 miles of driving on congested streets (he and I both live in high density areas, but I’m right off the freeway, so I don’t have to worry about congested streets to get to my place) mean that it’s about 45 minutes to and from his place, as well (if we’re being honest, I’m commuting to and from his place more often than my own).

    95. Amelia*

      10 miles, an hour and fifteen by train, and 20 min to 1.5 hrs by car depending on how bad Boston traffic is.

    96. lowercase holly*

      40 min one way. i drive using an interstate for the majority of it and smaller highways (state roads?) to get from my exit to my work. one highway goes through a very small town at a slow speed.

    97. Manders*

      Oh, I was thinking of asking about that this week! My current commute is a 40-minute bus ride from the edge of Seattle to downtown. It’s pretty much always exactly that time unless a bus breaks down, I miss my ride, or the bus is so full when it gets to my stop that I can’t get on.

      Seattle has a highway running through the middle of town, and during rush hour, there’s a separate express lane that actually switches direction to help deal with the number of people heading into and out of downtown. I catch my bus in a transit tunnel so it doesn’t get stuck on surface streets. In a few years, the buses are going to get kicked out of the tunnel onto surface streets, because a few years after that a light rail station will be completed and only trains will run in the tunnel. It’s kind of a mess right now but everyone’s crossing their fingers that it gets better after it gets worse.

      I used to have a pleasant 30-minute walk to work, but I can’t afford to live so close to downtown anymore.

    98. K.*

      25-35 minutes depending on traffic. City streets. I could take public transportation but it would take the same amount of time, parking & PT cost about the same, and I have more control over my commute if I drive. If I could shower at work I’d ride my bike.

    99. Rainy, PI*

      If I walk it’s about half an hour. If I bike it’s 15-20 minutes depending on how my thighs feel that morning. If I take the bus it’s anywhere between 15 minutes and 50 minutes (I unfortunately live on a city-run rather than a transit-run bus route and the city literally doesn’t give a shit about schedules, and will also abuse you verbally over the phone if you call to complain).

    100. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      30 min each way. Back roads – through lovely country. It is a great drive.

      I dread the day I might need to go into the city to advance my career. I’ll probably cry.

    101. Candy*

      I live about 2.5 kms from work. In the summer I ride my bike, which takes about 15 minutes. In the winter I’ll walk and that takes about half an hour. I could take the bus but it’d take just as long as walking and I’d much rather spend that time walking freely than crammed into a packed bus.

    102. Master Bean Counter*

      25 mile commute. 5 miles on dirt roads, that were washed out in a monsoon yesterday, and the rest on paved highways. My office is only half a mile off the Interstate. Takes me about 30 minutes both ways, unless the border patrol check station is running slowly on the way home.

    103. Koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

      7.5 miles, takes about 30-35 minutes at low traffic times and about 35-40 during rush hour. I live on the edge of the city inside the interstate beltway and I commute into the heart of the city. I opt for secondary routes – they are major enough to not have very many stop signs, but typically one-lane each direction and not as heavy traffic as the primary arteries through the city.

      I find one-lane roads get less jammed up at rush hour because drivers can easily use the shoulder to go around cars that are waiting to make a turn, whereas in heavy traffic on a two-lane road, a car waiting to turn holds up every car in the lane behind it, who aren’t easily able to move into the unobstructed lane due to the heavy traffic. And in the city with so many pedestrians, you’re just as likely to get held up behind someone waiting to make a right as someone waiting to make a left, so there’s no good lane to be in.

    104. GarlicMicrowaver*

      I live in an area notorious for its traffic. Fortunately, I get off the first exit of Evil Highway. With smooth sailing, it only takes 15 minutes, but usually with traffic, about 25, give or take. At my old job, my commute was 2.5 hours each way (a train and two subways and many tears ).

    105. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I have the best commute ever.
      2.5 miles, by bike, on the beach. That is on the 2-3 days a week I’m in the office, also work from home 2-3 days a week.

    106. Aphrodite*

      The drive takes about three minutes; if you count door to door (literally) it’s about seven minutes. I drive on a one-lane road that parallels the freeway. Love my commute!

    107. Machiamellie*

      I grab my coffee and walk downstairs two flights to my office area. Sometimes I even put on pants.

    108. ginkgo*

      I feel like I have to represent for the bus commuters :)

      My current commute:
      To work: 30-min bus ride, then walk a mile to the office (which takes about 15 minutes)
      From work: 20-min train ride, then 30-min bus ride

      I don’t really know why I got into the habit of doing it that way, especially since the train makes me crazy (our city’s transportation system is TOTALLY inadequate for its ridership; I have to fight through a wall of humans on the platform and the escalator has been broken for two weeks and counting now). However! Today is my last day at my current job, and my new job is located right where the bus drops off/picks up, effectively cutting off a leg of the trip! So from now on my commute will be a 30-min bus ride only. SO happy!

    109. Zathras*

      25 minutes by bike. If I can’t bike for whatever reason (icy roads, bike needs repair, etc.) it’s 15 minute walk, 15ish minute train, 5 minute walk. I could theoretically walk it in about an hour I think, but I haven’t tried.

    110. Soon to be former fed*

      I commute across the hall, with a detour to the kitchen for coffee. Best commute ever.

    111. oliviacw*

      About 40 minutes, plus time stopping in the middle to drop my daughter off at daycare. About halfway is on a minor highway (that goes through a downtown area), the other half is on a freeway that gets congested sometimes in the morning, always in the evening.

    112. Beachlover*

      40-45 mins by freeway , which in California means you are not moving very fast, I have a 22 mile commute. if there is a major accident that can become 2 hrs. The side streets by the freeway jam up also, so those are no help.
      There is a back road I can take if I know about issues before I leave my house, its in the opposite direction from Freeway, that would take about 40 min.

    113. Sabrina Spellman*

      I live in Pittsburgh, so my commute means taking at least one bridge to work and either a highway or backgrounds. Generally, a good commute for me is 45 minutes one way.

    114. Applesauced*

      I live in NYC a depend on the subway to get around. On a good day, it takes about 45-50 minutes, door to door (15 minute walk, 30-35 on the train) (there are closer stations but I prefer to walk over transfers)
      On bad days it can take a lot longer depending how f’ed up the the trains are that morning.

    115. DrPeteLoomis*

      Public transit. It’s about 45 minutes from door to door. That includes leaving my place about 10 mins before the train is due to arrive to give myself time to get to the train station and get there a little early just in case the train is early. Then I have about a 15 minute walk from the train station to my office. It would be faster to drive, but I enjoy the time to listen to podcasts and get a little exercise from the walk to/from the station.

    116. anonymouse*

      On a good day, 3 hrs round trip. On a more typical day, closer to 3.5-4 hrs round trip. On a very very bad day (rain or accidents if I’m driving, delayed trains if I’m public-transit-ing) it can be 5 hrs round trip. The train gives me a little more “me” time (reading for an hour each way, a little exercise with the couple of miles I have to walk) but is miserable in crappy weather or if I’m in a rush or if I have to do something after work. The car allows me to be alone (something I love) and be on my own schedule, but the traffic is a nightmare and makes me very stressed out. I try to alternate them so I don’t go crazy. They both costs close to $30 round trip per day (commuter rail is $27, parking in the city is $26 plus gas).

      I like my job. It pays pretty well. I get to work from home 1-2 days a week (1 officially, plus flexibility if an additional one is needed/desired), increasing to 2-3 days a week this fall. The commute is the worst thing in the world and it has decreased quality of life in a very significant way. Right now, I don’t see a way out of it. If my schedule goes to 3 WFH days a week and 2 office days, I think I can last long term. If it went back to only 1 day per week (like if we got a more rigid manager, since WFH is at manager discretion), I’d have to get a different job.

    117. blackcat*

      35-40 minute walk (depending on lights) or 2 minute walk + 5-7 minute bus (depending on traffic) + 5 minute walk. Bus route and walking route are identical, suburban/urban-ish roads. I strongly prefer to walk, but I bus whenever the weather is too wet, too hot (>90F heat index or so) or too cold (<15F windchill). It's 1.7 miles door to door.

      My husband drives on suburban surface streets, 20-40 minutes depending on traffic. It's about 7 miles each way for him. He heads further out into the 'burbs, I head inward towards the city. There is a bus he could take, but it would require a 20 minute walk. He is a chicken about driving in snow, though, so I suspect he'll take the bus a fair bit in the winter (it's a new job). He keeps talking about trying to bike, but he hasn't found a route he'd feel comfortable on yet.

    118. SaraV*

      At OldJob, I commuted from one major-ish city in the state to the biggest city in the state. If I remember correctly, it was 96 miles roundtrip from our driveway to the work parking lot. It was about 1/4-1/3 of a tank of gas for the roundtrip. Figuring my salary and the price of gas back then (which was more expensive than now), a litte less than an hour of work a day paid for my gas. But I loved what I did, and I loved the people I worked with, so it was worth it to me.

      I was lucky in that a) most of my drive was interstate, b) I exited the interstate on the western edge of BigCity, right before traffic got really messy, and c) work was 3-4 blocks off the interstate. The worst part of my drive was getting from my home to the interstate in BiggishTown, and vice versa. Getting yourself east/west in BiggishTown wasn’t a huge problem, but getting north/south was. Plus, I drove past an elementary school and a high school. Whenever school wasn’t in session, it was quite a relief.

    119. SJE*

      20 miles in Houston TX all freeways–generally the morning commute takes about 65 minutes & the afternoon one takes about an hour and 15 to an hour and a half. And that’s on a good day!

    120. Mine Own Telemachus*

      Going to work, it’s usually around 40min highway travel (I’m including time spent in the parking garage getting up to my usual spot, as I park on the far opposite corner to increase my walking distance to get in).

      Going home, about an hour, using side streets and the like because it stretches to 90 minutes or more if I take the same highway back thanks to construction on that side of the interstate.

      1. Mine Own Telemachus*

        Oh, and I should add I go from one city to a neighboring city, for a commute of about 8 miles.

    121. Agile Phalanges*

      I used to work in the same town I live, but the commute was on a winding two-lane road with a lot of construction traffic (dump trucks, etc.) that you couldn’t pass. It took 12-17 minutes to get to work. Now, I live in the next town, but I live on the edge of my town closest to that town, so while it still takes about 17 minutes to get to work, it’s a much nicer commute as it’s nearly entirely on a four-lane highway, so I can pass slower traffic, or use cruise control when traffic is going “my” speed. It’s also the reverse of the typical commute, so I don’t deal with as much traffic even at “rush hour” (small town life!) as going the other direction would. I’m considering buying a house in the town I work in, or even the next town past it from the one I currently live, but not because of the work commute-it’s to be closer to my horse! :-)

    122. Jadelyn*

      10-15 minutes – mostly freeway/highway. Although on Fridays, I drive to the next town over for my favorite coffee shop, and when I come back I take my favorite twisty little back road because what’s the point in driving a sports car if you don’t have fun with it once in awhile?

      My commute is not at all normal for this area, though – almost everyone has to commute between towns/cities for work, this is the first time in my work life that I’ve lived and worked in the same town. It’s awesome.

    123. The Rat-Catcher*

      15-20 minutes by car, primarily state highways and interstate. One of the few blessings of a rural area is that traffic is not really a factor.

    125. Aunt Vixen*

      One of a few options:
      1. 15-minute walk, 35- to 40-minute train ride, 5-minute walk
      2. 20-minute walk, 30- to 35-minute train ride, 5-minute walk
      3. 10-minute drive, 45-minute train ride, 5-minute walk
      4. 10-minute drive, 30- to 35-minute train ride, 5-minute walk

      Option 1 is normal. Option 2 is if I have to do the day care dropoff (which Uncle Vixen usually does while I am taking option 1). Option 3 is if I am too tired to do any of the walking in the morning or will need the car in the afternoon right at the end of the train ride rather than walking home to get it. Option 4 is if I am too tired to do any of the walking in the morning or running late and Uncle Vixen drives the baby to day care and then drops me at the train.

    126. Stephivist*

      I live 11 miles from work. It takes me 20-25 minutes in the morning and 35-45 around 5pm. I’m on the Interstate 85% of that time.

      I could take the train, but it would be a 10 minute drive to the station + 30 minutes on the train + 15 minute walk on the other end.

    127. Spice for this*

      Since April, my drive is about 20 min. in the am taking city streets. And it takes 30-45 min. in the pm depending on traffic.
      Before April, I used to drive about 20 miles each way and I would be on the highway for about 15-20 min., then on city streets for 20-25 min. It would take 1 hour to 1.5 to get back home if there was an accident or snow on the roads.

    128. Emilitron*

      My commute is 24 miles; 2 miles from suburb house to highway, 20 miles on highway ring road around the city, 2 miles from highway through business park areas to the office. If I were working a standard 8:30-5, it would be about 1-1.5 hr each way; in the dead of night or on the weekends it’s about 35 minutes. I shifted my hours to work ~10-6:30, and it’s about 45 minutes each way.
      I moved across the country for Job A, bought my house 3 miles away in suburb A, 8 minutes door to door. Now I still live there, but work in job B 24 miles away, and I almost didn’t apply to it because of the commute. I’m really happy though. Given that there’s always a “worst thing about this job” I’d much rather it be the drive time than the boss, the tasks, the morale, the coworkers…

    129. Venus Supreme*

      With my current job it’s about 15 minutes door-to-door, maybe 12 minutes on a good day, maybe 17 minutes on a bad day. I take a back road for about 10 minutes then a highway for three minutes. It’s really great and it surprisingly has improved my quality of life, which I haven’t thought of before.

      Previously, my commute was 2 1/2 hours door to door. This included driving to a parking lot to take the shuttle bus to take the train, sit on the train for 40 minutes, and walk about 30 minutes to work because I couldn’t afford the subway. Even one seemingly insignificant delay could make me up to an hour late for work.

      My commute to my summer job throughout school was great — it was a two minute bike ride, and I lived down the shore! That was the best.

    130. skunklet*

      it’s about a 25 minute commute, the direct route is about 12 miles, but that would be with traffic; so I add about a mile or two to my commute (to get to the 25 minutes) to avoid traffic. i very rarely hit any traffic. I take almost all back roads except for about 1 mile on an interstate. I lived in the Va Bch area for 11 yrs, and hit traffic all the time, I love upstate NY and lack of traffic!

    131. IntoTheSarchasm*

      Work at home now but last job was 55 miles one way mostly expressway, took about 45 minutes except for winter because western Michigan. Job before that, 80 miles one way for four years into the teeth of Detroit area traffic (Novi) where there are no driving rules. Took about 1.25 hours. Cost me two windshields and one entire car – that is what happens when you hit a deer going 75 on the expressway during semi-rush hour. Needless to say, six cars were eventually involved and the expressway was closed for about an hour. Bad day, walked away with just a little airbag damage.

    132. Typhon Worker Bee*

      I cycle most days, on a network of designated bike routes. These are back streets in a major city where you’re not separated from cars by a physical barrier or painted bike lane, but there are traffic calming measures in place and tons of other bikes. It’s mostly pretty safe (mostly) and takes 15-20 minutes to get to work and 20-25 to get home (almost all uphill). There’s a shower at work. When I’m not cycling I take a bus and then the SkyTrain (metro) – takes about 20 minutes in either direction.

      I’m moving in a few weeks and get to commute by boat! (The SeaBus passenger ferry). You can take bikes on board so I’ll either bike-boat-bike (the second leg being through downtown, with more traffic but better separation than my current route) or walk/bus-boat-SkyTrain. I haven’t done either commute all in one go during rush hour yet but it’ll definitely take longer – maybe 45 minutes on a bike (depending on timing – the boats go every 15 minutes so just missing one makes a big difference), less on transit. There are other options that involve biking or bussing over a bridge. The latter would be faster on good days but waaaaaaaay slower on bad days. And the SeaBus is IMO the best commute in town – very scenic and relaxing, and you almost always get a seat, unlike on the bus and SkyTrain!

      There’s a VERY big hill on the way to our new home, so I might get an electric assist kit for my bike. My triathlete friends think this is hilarious but I don’t care! All the buses around here also have bike racks on the front. Options, I have them.

    133. Sunflower*

      Half a mile walk to the subway takes about 12-15 mins, 8 min subway ride, 5 min walk to my building. So I say about a half hour door to door. It’s about 2.5 miles total. I walked once in work clothes and flats and it’s about an hour. I’d like to walk more but would not do it unless I was wearing active wear and sneakers.

    134. Bea W*

      Public transit, 2 trains generally 35-45 min door to door unless the Red Line is broken. Part of my ride takes me over I-93. At that point I am with 10 min from being home and I routinely think “glad that’s not me!”

    135. Kiki*

      Commute is 1 hour each way on a major highway. Theoretically it should only take 35-40 minutes but there’s always tons of traffic.

    136. Borgette*

      I live really close to my office! My normal commute is a <2 mile drive on a semi-busy residential street. I can take the highway for two exits in about the same time, but the street is less stress. There's also a bus that goes the same route, and I'm considering trying that out for a month now that the summer heat is breaking.

    137. Khal E Eessi*

      I live near Boston.

      Morning: 5 minute drive to commuter train, 30 minute commuter train ride, then another 25 minutes on the subway. About an hour, door to door, barring a “disabled train” or “signal issues” (cue eyeroll).

      Evening: It takes longer in the evening. 35-40 minutes subway, (standby waiting for train 5-10 minutes), 30-35 minutes commuter rail, 5 minute drive. An hour and twenty, if I’m lucky. (cue another eyeroll)

    138. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

      45-60 minutes by car, main roads and larger backroads mostly (i.e., not highways, but large enough so have some multiple lanes each way, speed limits from 35-50 MPH). There’s a toll road I can take that shaves maybe 10 minutes off, but it’s not worth the paying the toll unless I’m in a super hurry. I’ve taken to listening to audiobooks on my ride.

    140. Tim*

      Right now it’s about 1:15 – 20 minutes walking outdoors + waiting for the train, 45 minute train ride, 10 minute walk indoors on the other end. I usually leave 1:35 prior since the train can randomly be much slower.

      In a couple weeks it’ll just be a 35-minute walk (25 minutes outdoors, 10 indoors). Can’t wait. 100 extra minutes a day!

    141. Amy*

      I live in Northern Virginia – I drive on Rt 66 and Rt 28 every day it can take a half hour to an hour plus each way depending on traffic, the average is about 50 minutes. I commute with my husband so we can use the HOV lanes which does save us a lot of time.

    142. Die Forelle*

      I live and work in the same neighborhood in a city with really bad traffic, so I have it SO good compared to a lot of people around here. I get to/from work 3 different ways:

      1. Drive (takes about 8 minutes, never any traffic unless everything everywhere is borked, which has actually happened a time or two)
      2. Bus (40 minutes total: 20 minutes on the actual buses, 10 minutes waiting and transferring, 10 minutes downhill walking)
      3. Walk (40-45 minutes, uphill both ways: I live on opposite sides of a hill and have to walk up and over to the other side of the hill each way)

      It’s very weather-dependent. In the summertime I bus and/or walk almost every day, but in the dark rainy winters where I live, I drive much more often.

    143. A. Non*

      25 minutes with no traffic, up to 45 depending, with a mix of suburban roads and one major highway crossing. Two five-point intersections, too, which usually are the reasons for delays.

    144. Rianwyn*

      My husband and I share a single car for the family. Since I am employed traditionally, and it’s best for him to have the flexibility of day-travel and errands, usually he drives me to work each day and picks me up. It’s 7-12 minutes each way. … very potholed city streets.

    145. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      If I walk, 35 minutes. If I get a ride from the people I live with, 10 minutes max.

    146. Clinical Social Worker*

      I drive 60 miles on country highways (mostly, the last part is a real interstate highway) to work. There is no public transportation or other options for traveling this distance for work in my area. It takes me an hour, sometimes more when there’s snow, to drive to work. I listen to audiobooks to pass the time.

    147. Anon.*

      I used to work with a guy that lived in Temecula and worked at LAX. I think his commute was 2.5-3 hrs each way. On the plus side, he won the KLOS radio station’s contest for longest commute. He won $1000 in gas money. Probably lasted him a month!

    148. Rovannen*

      Seriously, 4 minutes on a bad day in a car. That’s from one side of town to the other; two stop signs. I can walk it in 20 minutes. I have the best commute ever.

    149. Garland Not Andrews*

      I’m 35 miles from work. It takes 45 minutes to 1.25 hrs. I drive country roads, but main roads not windey back roads, most of the other half is on interstate, both country and city sections and a small bit on city streets.

    150. knottyferret*

      I had a bus commute in the Seattle area of 54 minutes (if traffic was ideal, so going to work but never home).
      I recently moved to Delaware and my commute is now never more than 45 minutes (still by bus).
      Express bus doesn’t hit many side streets, but since either are faster than what I was riding 2 months ago, I don’t mind when I wind up on a bus hitting the residential area.

    151. Overeducated*

      To get in: 20-25 minutes by car on a medium sized road and highway, or 35 minutes by bike. To get out: 15 minutes by car to day care and another 15 home, or 30 minutes by bike and another 20 home. Somehow the bike route to day care is extremely inefficient.

      Public transit is possible since I live in an incredibly dense urban area, but due to my office location it takes over an hour just to get to work, so I avoid it. Biking is awesome but sometimes logistically annoying or not something I am up for in bad weather.

    152. Lives in a Shoe*

      40 minutes in heavy heavy heavy (labeled one of the worst commutes in the nation) traffic to my child’s school, then I park and take a 20 minute shuttle to work. I could use public transit, but it’s so much more expensive than driving.
      Alone, it is just awful. With a kid along, it can be great. We listen to language podcasts and talk, sometimes she reads to me. But it adds 10 hours to my work week every week. I just couldn’t afford anything closer. And she has after school activities, so her day is too long also. I wish it were different.

    153. KR*

      15 to 20 minutes, barely any traffic unless I go for Starbucks before work, and mostly not main roads that are in town.

    154. KR*

      I ad my one on one today and my manager gave me some positive feedback i really needed, so I’m happy about that.

    155. ModernHypatia*

      Boston suburb: 5 miles, somewhere between 30 minutes and 50, depending on traffic. (Yes, that is ridiculous, but it’s three towns, town streets, and only three routes between where I live and where I work, of which one is more like an hour+ and multiple rotaries no one knows how to navigate.)

      I got to set my hours so I come in just before the traffic gets bad and if I get out the door on time, it’s about 40 minutes going home. Also, I swim before work three days a week, and while I hate going to bed to get up at 5:30, I love the lack of traffic, since I swim about 5 minutes from work.

    156. Irish Em*

      20 mins mostly walking. Mind you, if the LUAS wasn’t there it’d be a Very Different Story. That 5 minutes on a tram cuts about 40 minutes out of it.

    157. AnonyBris*

      1hr 15mins – car drive – medium traffic through stop start suburbs and busy roads – no highways to my city.

      Traffic is unfortunate as it only takes 20mins on weekend.

    158. Lindsay J*

      By car. 15-20 minutes depending on traffic. It’s about 10 miles. I would say the first 10 minutes are highway, and the last 5 are back roads with a bunch of red lights.

    159. Workaholic*

      Going to work takes 15 minutes. Home takes between 20 (very rare!) And 45 – depends if i leave on time or stay late. Oddly enough if i leave the office so that i hit the main road at 3:28 then it’s low traffic to the freeway. 5 minutes later and it gets ugly. My commute is almost entirely freeway – with one block of side road and a stretch of main road to the freeway both sides. I feel bad driving all the time but if i caught the earliest bus it takes 1 hr 15 mins to get to work and I’d arrive 15 minutes or more late.

    160. MacAilbert*

      I commute by light rail and bus. There’s a light rail stop about an 8 minute walk from my apartment, which converts into a subway a third of the way through my ride. I get off downtown after about a 30 minute ride, then catch a bus for another 30 minute ride that drops me right at work.

    161. amanda_cake*

      I live in a small town less than a mile from the university where I work. Due to one way streets, driving takes longer than walking. If the weather is nice and I’m on time, I walk to work. It takes me less than 15 minutes. It takes me longer than some because it is uphill.

    162. Kickin' Crab*

      I live in Philadelphia. My apartment building runs an hourly shuttle through the city, which takes about 20 minutes to my stop + 5 min walk. If I miss the shuttle and take transit, it’s 15 min walk to the trolley, 5 min on trolley, 10 min walk. If the weather is good I’ll bike, which is a combination of city streets (mostly with buffered bike lanes) and an off-street multi-use trail, takes ~20 min for 3.5 miles.

      Prior to this, I lived in a semi-rural college town, just 5 miles from work. I had to be at work at 6:30 AM, which took ~15 min because no traffic, but going home at 4:30-5pm took closer to 45!

    163. Audiophile*

      My commute is now about an hour one way. An express train from my station is about thirty-five minutes and then fifteen minutes on the subway. Much better than the commute I had a few months ago.

    164. Mrs. Fenris*

      9 miles, 35ish minutes in a horribly congested suburban area. My previous job was 12 miles in the opposite direction and I was going against traffic, and it took 25-30 minutes. In both cases, it’s been on large local streets (like 4-6 lanes with a median) and this one has a short detour on back roads.

    165. Anxa*

      I drive south about 25 minutes, drop my SO off of work, then drive about 40 minutes to work. At the end of the day I either go back to pick him up and go home or I drive about 40 minutes (to an hour) to my second job. By the time that’s over traffic is light so then I go about 35 minutes to get my SO and 20 minutes home.

      During the school year I walk about 30 minutes to a bus stop, then take a 20 minute bus to work.

    166. only acting normal*

      40 miles ~45 mins on motorways after the rush-hour, or and unpredictable 90mins in traffic. Record was 4hours after a massive pile-up closed the road.
      Alternative country-road route is ever so slightly shorter and a reliable 55-60mins – so if I need to guarantee a particular start time I go that way instead (or if I want to see a bit of lovely scenery for a change).

  2. Pineapple Pizza*

    I was passed on for a job because I didn’t comment on my interviewer’s pregnancy.
    I interviewed for an HR job at a company I was referred to. My interviewer was visibly pregnant but I did not address it. I figured, as HR, it would be appropriate to not ohh and ahh over a baby bump. She referred to it once, saying she’d be out a lot once (pointing to belly) comes. I didn’t interrupt to ask when she was due or any of that.
    Anyway, the person that referred me told me that my interviewer was put off that I didn’t acknowledge her pregnancy and that the other candidates all did.
    I guess I could have added “good luck with the new baby” as part of our goodbyes but I didn’t.
    What do you think? In full disclosure, I am not a mother and am childfree by choice so I’m not one for baby talk but again this was an HR interview.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, I think it’s ridiculous — but then, I’m definitely on the side of “do not mention things going on with other people’s bodies.”

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, I wouldn’t have said anything. It’s an interview and the first time meeting the interviewer. I find it too risky to comment on anything personal the first time meeting someone and especially something as sensitive as a pregnancy. I wouldn’t have gotten the job either.

      2. AVP*

        totally agree. I live in terror of accidentally implying that someone might be pregnant and then learning that they aren’t!

    2. katamia*

      What. That is absurd and breaks the cardinal “Unless you see a baby actually exiting at the moment, don’t mention a stranger’s pregnancy, and even then maybe you don’t want to assume” rule.

      1. Bagpuss*

        I think once she mentioned it it would not break that rule to say something, but if she didn’t leave a pause to allow you to respond it would feel awkward to then go back and comment on it later.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      My knee-jerk reaction is that the interviewer is an awful, awful person who expected lots of attention and was miffed that you didn’t give it to her, and that you’ve dodged a bullet if you would have been working for her.

      2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Honestly. That is not going to be a fun place to work. The evil in me wants to say that once you found out why you didn’t get the job you said that had been that you’d recently suffered a miscarriage and it was a very sensitive subject for you.

        4. Humorless*

          The interviewer was being awkward, but I don’t think lying about a miscarriage is the way to go. They’re not a joke

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Or if not an awful person, certainly a person who bizarrely thought they deserve praise and attention from strangers for their fecundity/procreative state.

        1. Ego Chamber*

          Agreed. I understand that it’s very important and exciting for the person it’s happening to, but pregnancy seems like the one thing a person can do where it’s not okay to (eventually) tell them no one else is as interested or excited about it as they are and if they expect other people to be that invested, they’re naive at best and self-absorbed at worst.*

          ______
          *Compare this to literally any other life milestone. Everything has an upper limit for congratulations and a basic understanding that some people might not care, except for pregnancy.

      8. motherofdragons*

        Co-signed, as a currently enormously pregnant person. It would never occur to me to think less of someone, let alone *not offer them a job*, if they didn’t comment on my bump!

    4. Blue Anne*

      What the heck? That’s ridiculous. It’s never good form to assume someone is pregnant when they look like it, for one thing…

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      I’d put this in the ‘bullet dodged’ category. If they’re that unprofessional during a job interview, imagine what the day-to-day is like there.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That’s really strange. The only explanation I can think of is that you didn’t ask about changes to the job during her maternity leave, which would be a reasonable question to ask (assuming she would be your boss), though certainly not required. Did that come up at all?

      1. Pineapple Pizza*

        She would not be my boss. She was finance and I would be taking payroll over from her. I figured I’d own payroll before she took time off, plus she mentioned she could work from home.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          This actually makes me feel a little more like she was expecting a question about how payroll would be handled while she was on leave and how your role would fit into that leave. Answers to questions like, “Would I own payroll during your leave? When are you planning to take leave?” would likely be important to someone who is planning to move into the role. There’s a possibility she preferred a candidate who asked rather than assumed what the plans would be. I don’t think that’s right or wrong, just possible.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            “She didn’t acknowledge my pregnancy” sounds, IMHO, more like “I wanted to be fawned over.” If she’d said “She didn’t seem to have any thoughts about how things would be handled during my absence,” I’d see your point.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              We’re getting that third-hand, though. I think there’s a possibility that it’s less, shall we say, hysterical than it sounds. Either way, the job isn’t the right fit for Pineapple Pizza.

    7. Nancy Drew*

      Very odd that she would expect you to comment on it. If I were in your shoes, I don’t think I would have commented on it, either.

    8. Marzipan*

      That’s just weird.

      Also, having moved for some time in infertility circles, there are plenty of people out there who find it quite difficult to engage with other people’s pregnancies. Obviously, pregnant people do exist and interacting with a pregnant woman isn’t an issue, but being expected to make a big thing of her pregnancy would be potentially quite difficult for anyone dealing with fertility problems or losses. So, if that’s their only reason it’s a rather inappropriate one.

    10. Snark*

      Consider that a bullet dodged, because that kind of drama queen would be IMPOSSIBLE to work with.

    11. kittymommy*

      Personally, I probably would have mentioned it, especially after she referenced it, but I do think it’s ridiculous to base a decision on it. If she’s that particular (I’m trying to be kind) I think you got lucky not getting the job.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        I probably would have just asked her when she was due AFTER she pointed to her stomach. But the fact that you chose not to say anything should not have played a role in whether or not they chose to hire you.

    12. Menacia*

      Wow, I actually feel discriminated against for you as I too am CFBC and don’t ooh and ahh over every preggo I encounter. Ugh, you’re better off… Way to take the focus off the intent of the interview and then penalize you for it! :(

      2. Ego Chamber*

        At the last place I worked, there were 3 separate pregnant coworkers that would hang out with me in the breakroom because I was the only person not commenting on their pregnancies. Sometimes they talked about pregnancy issues, and that was fine, but I kind of didn’t care and they said they liked that because they could get away from all the attention for part of the day.

        I don’t ever want kids and I’m just not super into babies, so my default is to talk to about not-baby things.

    13. Emi.*

      I think she’s overreacting, but when someone mentions that she’s pregnant it’s normal and polite to offer brief congratulations–that’s hardly “baby talk.”

      1. neverjaunty*

        In the context of a job interview like this, it’s not abnormal or rude *not* to comment, either.

      2. Olive Hornby*

        I agree–I think a brief congratulations would have been appropriate here, and not acknowledging it at all would probably strike me as a bit strange (though certainly not a reason not to move forward with an otherwise great candidate.)

        1. Emi.*

          No, but it might indicate a bad fit for a particularly warm and friendly office (especially if they had other great candidates).

          I’m also put off by the number of comments accusing this poor woman of being a “drama queen” and expecting to be “fawned over” based on a second-hand report of a stranger’s emotions.

          1. Optimistic Prime*

            Disagree. People have unintended pregnancies all the time, and there is also such a thing as surrogacy. I come from a community where pregnancies were as often unintended as they were intended – maybe more – so personally I don’t congratulate people on their pregnancies unless I know for a fact they are excited about it. Plus I would also think a job interview was an awkward time to comment on somebody’s body and personal life. That doesn’t make me not a warm and friendly person – I love celebrations!

            I suppose I somewhat agree that there’s no real way to know if she’s a “drama queen,” but it definitely hints at a potential propensity for attention-seeking if you pass over an otherwise good candidate simply because they didn’t acknowledge your pregnancy. (That said, we only know this secondhand anyway – really third-hand, so it’s possible that wasn’t even a factor but she just mentioned it as weird.)

            1. Observer*

              You’re missing the point. She specifically mentioned the pregnancy, and she apparently did it in a fairly matter of fact way. Which means that acknowledging it is hardly intrusion on personal space. It also doesn’t sound like either attention seeking or like a sore spot.

              It’s actually very off-putting that you ignored a significant piece of information that someone gave you. A simple “congratulations” or “I hope all goes well” if you aren’t sure congratulations are warranted, followed by a question about the workplace impact of her absence would have made sense, and is nowhere near “fawning.” Not that I would have refused to hire just over this – But we really don’t have any evidence that this is what happened. The interviewer “was put off” does NOT mean the interviewer “refused to move this forward.”

              1. Jessica*

                Not at all. This was quite inappropriate behavior on the part of the interviewer. An interview is not about the interviewer’s personal life, it’s about the position and the candidate. Furthermore, what was the purpose of mentioning it? It could be read as trying to fish for insight on whether the candidate has kids or is planning to have kids soon–which is really pushing the line on ethical interview practices.

                Super unprofessional and probably a red flag on how that office culture works.

                1. Ego Chamber*

                  “probably a red flag on how that office culture works.”

                  The weirdest part to me is that the interviewer actually cited not mentioning her pregnancy instead of sanitizing it at all with “I didn’t feel like we really connected” or something similar.

                2. Observer*

                  I actually find this response a red flag. Sure, interviews are about figuring out how the position and candidate fit, or don’t as the case may be. But jumping to this being a fishing expedition for information that is illegal to consider is simply bizarre, and not supported by what we’ve been told. Also, she mentioned something that IS quite relevant to the position – she’s going to be out, and her position DOES relate to the position being hired for. Pretending that this is not relevant is what seems unprofessional, to me.

            2. Emi.*

              Yeah, what Observer said. Unless there’s way more to the story than Pineapple Pizza has told, we don’t know that s/he was passed over *because* of not offering minimum polite congratulations.

          2. Koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

            It’s not just a report of her emotions. It’s also a report of her actions: she denied a qualified person a job over this.

    14. Murphy*

      That’s ridiculous. I wouldn’t acknowledge it unless they did, and even then I wouldn’t have asked anything in the moment. If that person walked me out, I might have made small talk about it then, but that’s it. And even then, it’s not relevant at all to the interview.

    15. ms-dos efx*

      Also childfree by choice here, but I would not have commented and even after she had mentioned her pregnancy, I still would have felt uncomfortable addressing it. I just can’t muster enthusiasm for other people’s babies. I mean, it’s not like I judge others for having kids, I just can’t pretend like I, too, am excited about their life choices. Nor would I expect strangers to celebrate mine!

      I’m sorry. It’s a cultural thing that I have a hard time understanding/participating in, and I totally know that I’M the weird one here. But Pineapple Pizza, know you are not alone.

      That said, I think it was a pretty ridiculous and inappropriate reason to disqualify a candidate.

        2. blackcat*

          Yeah, I’d only address it if it was unclear how her leave would impact her job. I’m 100% a “Do not mention possible pregnancy unless a person appears to need medical attention” kind of person. A close colleague of mine was obviously pregnant *when we were working on a project together,* but I didn’t mention anything about it until she brought up her leave (and even then, it was mostly a “Oh, great, let’s talk about a plan B if this isn’t done before the baby comes.” sort of comment). The only thing that required more conversation was when she started to say that her leave would start on X date (her due date), and I pushed back saying I wanted to have a plan in place in case she had to leave at X-4 weeks. I’ve seen too many people keep their due date in mind or be convinced they’ll go over and end up with a late pre-term baby.

          She was like 28 weeks pregnant before she brought it up. She had been obviously pregnant for months (she never had a “gaining weight or pregnant?” stage, since she only ever gained in her belly, one of those swallowed a basketball types).

          I figure if someone wants to talk about their pregnancy, they’ll talk to me about it! And I also think it’s kinda weird to talk to someone I barely know about their pregnancy in general.

      3. SC*

        I have a kid, and I find it difficult to muster enthusiasm for other people’s pregnancies, with very few exceptions for close family and friends. And even then, I just can’t bring myself to care much about second pregnancies. (I warm up to the babies when they’re around 6 months old.)

        In OP’s case, I probably would not have said anything unless the interviewer paused like she was expecting me to say something. I definitely would have erred on the side of not interrupting, and I would not have come back to it later.

        I’d categorize this as bad luck. It seems just as likely that OP would have an interviewer on the other extreme, who was put off by comments on her body. Either way, it’s weird to take such an extreme position on a sensitive topic.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Depends on your definition of small talk. In a formal situation like a job interview, where you know absolutely nothing about each other, I’d err on the side of “keep on work-related topics” too.

        2. Courtney*

          This is where my mind went too – that they didn’t get a friendly vibe from you, and I’ll assume that doesn’t line up with their company’s culture. How was the wording when they mentioned this – was it an example of why they thought you might not be the best fit, or clearly the sole reason?

          1. Pineapple Pizza*

            The person that referred me called the interviewer to check on the status of my candidacy. He was told, “No, your person didn’t say anything to me and I’m clearly pregnant. All our others candidates acknowledged it.” He was taken aback by this and said he would no longer refer people to this company.

      3. Lisa B*

        I’m feeling a little surprised by everyone’s responses, and having a gut-check moment of my own. When I read your comment, I’m wondering if this, along with your reactions to the interview, made you seem a little stand-offish, when they wanted an HR person who was, I don’t know, interested in people? “I’m pregnant!” *blink*, no smile, no nothing? Yes, it’s clearly not something YOU should have brought up, but just like if the interviewer had said “we’ll probably not get back to you for another week, I’m going to be out of the office for the next few days while my son is getting married, I’m so excited!” it’s generally understood acceptable behavior to respond “oh, how nice, congratulations!” Do you get nervous in interviews to where you don’t smile often, or seem stiff? Perhaps that, along with ignoring someone who basically gave you an invite to connect with them on a personal level, is what cost you the job.

        1. Hedwig*

          This is my line of thinking (as someone who gets nervous in interviews and various other situations and thus fails at social niceties that most people expect). The pregnancy thing may have just been the most concrete thing she could put her finger on for an overall lack of apparent warmth. Or she might be an attention junkie. Could go either way.

    17. Blunt*

      I would have said nothing about it, but once she mentions it & points to her belly, I would have at least said “congrats” & then moved on.

      Not saying anything & ignoring the topic completely make you seem uncaring/unfriendly.

      It does not matter if you are child free by choice or other. Making no comment is strange. It would put me off as well.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I don’t want to be reminded of my own pregnancy or of what I went through in L&D, so, if you don’t want me distracted during an interview, don’t press.

      2. Lady Bug*

        I agree, a simple “Congratulations” would be a friendly acknowledgment, but I wouldn’t expect to have any further detailed conversation. Ignoring it completely could be interpreted as an inabilty to conform to social norms, whether or not that’s true or fair.

      3. Optimistic Prime*

        I really don’t understand this kind of sentiment. I mean, a ‘congrats’ would be nice, but I don’t get the assumption that someone not mentioning it makes them seem uncaring or unfriendly. There are a thousand different reasons why someone might not comment on the shape of a woman’s body and/or their personal decision to have kids, and “this person is uncaring and I would not want to work with them” is like, so far down the list.

        1. Observer*

          Well, there is no reason to believe that this was THE reason for the final decision. I find it incredible how many people are jumping from “put off” to “refusing to hire and then being harshly critical – and complaining that the interviewer may be making assumptions.

        2. Emi.*

          But saying “Congrats” when someone mentions their pregnancy doesn’t really rise to the level of “comment[ing] on the shape of a woman’s body and/or their personal decision to have kids.” It’s just a friendly, polite thing to say. If I mentioned that someone in my family had died and you didn’t say “I’m sorry” I’d be kind of put off, and it would be really weird for you to say “Oh, I didn’t want to comment on your mother’s cancer treatments.”

          1. Jessica*

            But why on earth would you be bringing that up in a job interview? That’s a super inappropriate context. The job candidate is literally a stranger off the street whom you just met! Are people just into sharing TMI with any random human within a 10-foot radius?

            1. Emi.*

              “I have to travel out of town for my mother’s funeral; can we reschedule X?”

              I really don’t understand why people are so against discussing pregnancy. We’re not Victorians, yeesh.

              1. SC*

                I only told 2 people–direct bosses for whom I was working on projects–when I had to travel out of town for a family member’s funeral. And even then, it was only because I had to explain why I didn’t know yet exactly when I’d be out.

                Many workplaces are very Victorian about all kinds of personal issues.

              2. Sunflower*

                I don’t think its too over the top to say I’m sorry but I don’t understand being put off. This person is a stranger. While yes I’m sure they are sorry, at the same time, they probably are forgetting about it as soon as they hang up the phone or walk out the door. I don’t treat it AT ALL the same way as I would if it was a friend, or even coworker, telling me this.

              3. blackcat*

                I’m against it in general because so many people are weird about it/uncomfortable with it.

                There are those who have had infertility or miscarriage difficulties (I want to be sensitive to these folks)
                There are folks who are just plain uncomfortable with all things reproductive (I am not a fan of these folks, but whatever)
                Then there are people who ask ALL THE QUESTIONS (They are the worst)

                I’ve spent plenty of time talking about pregnancy in the workplace. But only with people I know well, and it’s very much a know your audience thing. In an interview, you do *not* know your audience, so I think it’s best to steer clear of discussing it unless it’s immediately relevant.

                1. Hedwig*

                  I am all about following the Miss Manners rule of never assuming a woman is pregnant unless you actually see the child exiting (to the point where I have, I think, come across as very self-involved by not acknowledging some really obvious pregnancies). But once the pregnant woman mentions it, it is presumably fair game for a quick congratulations or when are you due or some other simple acknowledgement.

      4. Amelia*

        I disagree. If the conversation is part of a typical interview, and the interviewer said something like, “We’d like you to start on August 10, but you’ll be working with Delilah and Jones initially. I’ll be out starting August 5 because of [points to belly] ” my response would never be, “Oh, congratulations, when is the baby due!” It would be, “Okay.” or “I understand.”

        Your pregnancy is none of my business, and it’s even less my business in a professional environment that I’m not even a part of. I get being miffed if coworkers never congratulate you, but an interviewee? And then using that as a reason to *not* hire them? It makes no sense.

        1. Ego Chamber*

          When my work-wife was pregnant, I never congratulated her. I also didn’t go to the shower. As far as I know, she didn’t hold either of those things against me. (We’re both female, so this wasn’t a gender thing.)

    18. Pwyll*

      I think this company has just told you that they would have unrealistic expectations for interpersonal discussions, and you probably dodged a bullet.

    19. Artemesia*

      She mentioned it therefore you probably should have said something. It probably came across as cold and insensitive to not say something about it once she had introduced the topic. If an interviewer complained about their kids’ school, you’d probably say something; if they commented they were about to leave on vacation, you would probably with them a bon voyage; so when she mentioned this momentous thing in her life, it probably came across as uncaring or cold to not acknowledge it.

      This one is always treacherous; certainly if she had not said anything you would have been prudent to not say anything in case she was fat and not pregnant.

      2. Koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

        Those are good parallel examples, and I’d agree that I would usually say something back. It falls under the area of “small talk” for me, and I’ve been socialized to engage in cheerful small talk when the need arises socially. But I wouldn’t say that people who don’t engage in small talk are cold or uncaring. That seems a bit extreme of a judgment to make. Some people just don’t like small talk or aren’t very good at it, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care about people.

    20. aebhel*

      Ugh, no, that’s weird. I’m pregnant right now, and I treasure the interactions that are not all about ‘SO I SEE YOU’RE HAVING A BABY’. I mean, yes, I’m excited, it’s very nice, but there’s really not much to say about it, and it gets tiresome to have the same ‘yep, that’s a baby, no we don’t know the gender, no we haven’t picked out a name, yes it’s very nice CAN WE ALL MOVE ON NOW’ conversation three or four times a day.

      Also, I think etiquette is that it’s generally rude to comment on a pregnancy unless you’re close to the person in question.

      1. Emi.*

        It doesn’t sound like the interviewer wanted the whole gender/name/etc rigmarole, though. Where I live, it’s standard etiquette to offer a “Congrats” if someone mentions her pregnancy, even if you’re not close to her.

    21. Lemon Zinger*

      Totally bizarre– you did nothing wrong. It is totally inappropriate to comment on others’ bodies in interview. Consider this a bullet dodged!

    22. Rainy, PI*

      I think you are better off not having to work closely with someone who wants people to fawn about her pregnancy, frankly, so probably that interviewer did you a favour.

    23. K.*

      I wouldn’t have mentioned it on meeting (I’ve witnessed people commenting that a woman is pregnant when she’s not; I wasn’t even in the conversation and I wanted to sink into the floor) but I probably would have said something like “Oh, when are you due?” when she pointed it out. However, it’s ridiculous and very petty that she held it against you that you didn’t.

    24. Machiamellie*

      Sounds like a bullet dodged, if the interviewer was the person who would have been your boss. If she’s that needy for attention, imagine how she’d be as a supervisor.

    25. GarlicMicrowaver*

      Really curious about Allison’s perspective on this one. I think the woman would have done better to keep that sentiment to herself. She intermingled personal issues with a business decision which is just not sound.

      Also, I haven’t read through all the replies, but I hope this doesn’t turn into a diatribe against pregnant women. Let’s try to avoid that.

      1. The Rat-Catcher*

        It hasn’t; it’s more about the level of appropriateness of commenting about such a thing, whether the fact that the interviewer brought it up first makes a difference, etc.

    26. LawPancake*

      I have a strong suspicion that were you a man interviewing for that position she would not have weighted the lack of whatever sort of “acknowledgement” she was expecting as strongly against you.

    27. Confused Teapot Maker*

      I can kind of see why this might be a valid reason, on the basis of culture fit. Say I’ve got equally qualified candidates and candidate A brings up the baby bump and candidate B doesn’t, I’m going to hire candidate A (or vice versa if I preferred you *didn’t* bring it up) because, all else being equal, that’s the person I’m probably going to prefer spending 8 hours plus a day with.

      The part that strikes me as truly odd is that they didn’t just explain it to you as ‘culture fit’ or ‘just didn’t click’ and rather said ‘didn’t acknowledge pregnancy’.

      Either way, I would still count it as a bullet dodged. If this was their reasoning for turning you down, then it sounds like you probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it there anyway.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Was the interview specifically for maternity leave cover, or did it just so happen the interviewer was pregnant?

        If it was the former, then it would make sense to at least acknowledge the fact.

    28. Jenny*

      I think maybe you don’t want to work in HR where they want people to talk about other people’s bodies and medical and family conditions ;)

    29. Not So NewReader*

      Okay. So what is the real reason you were passed over?

      Something this minor is fixable. “Pineapple, we are very people oriented here at Teapots R Us. It’s part of the company culture to give positive, encouraging personal comments on a random basis to cohorts. ” Then she could have asked you to give an example of when you encouraged a cohort OR she could have asked if you were comfortable in this type of culture.”

      Instead she said nothing and expected you to mind read. (read my mind = red flag)

      I do agree with folks here that a piece of personal information mentioned in passing probably should be replied to in some manner. But to make it the basis for not hiring a person, does not make sense to me. Most people are nervous in interviews. I would have just chalked it up to nerves. If it really bothered her she could have reframed it into a question like I wrote above here.

      It sounds to me like they had too many applicants and they were using whatever reason they could find to rule out a candidate. I think you learned way more about this company than they intended you to learn. Bullet dodged.

    30. TootsNYC*

      If it’s HR, I could see that the thinking might be, “you can’t just ignore the big events in people’s lives; we need HR people who can make employees feel that they are ‘seen’ by the HR folks.”

    33. Chaordic One*

      Gee, I don’t think I would comment on it, either. It is so easy for anything that you might say, even well-meaning, to be misconstrued or misinterpreted that I’d probably just not say anything. I don’t know that the interviewer was necessarily a mean person, but she’s kind of a jerk.

      (I really feel uncomfortable with coworkers who overshare or who are a little too nosy.)

      1. Anxa*

        I don’t get what you’re supposed to do there. Offer a congratulations? That seems absolutely presumptious. What if you don’t want to be pregnant? What if you are in the midst of a dangerous pregnancy. Oof.

        I just don’t get how it’s more rude no not address the issue than to presume excitement about a stranger’s pregnancy.

        Maybe I’m just weird and think to much.

  3. Folklorist*

    Happy ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST Day! Go and do something that you’ve been putting off and come back here and brag about it. Git ‘er done! (OK, I hate myself for typing that now but I refuse to delete it.)

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I finally set up an online teaching profile that I’ve been putting off because it looked like a complicated registration process. It was actually easy and I’ve already got some lessons booked for next week. This is something I’ve been putting off since January!

    4. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      Finished my billing! I always drag my feet on this task, and I’m not sure why. But the stack is off my desk now!

      1. JustaTech*

        Did it! And it was even more of a nightmare than I imagined, but I finally got to actually talk to the helpful person, so now I know what she sounds like!
        I hate this document system.

    6. Red lines with wine*

      I love this thread every Friday – it’s very motivational. I sent an email to my colleagues that I’d been putting off since yesterday. Now I can go back to reading AAM. :)

    10. Marillenbaum*

      Wrote a memo that has to go out today. Should also be doing my expense report from a trip that ended yesterday, but I forgot to bring some of my receipts, and I haven’t fully figured out the process software yet.

    11. Victoria, Please*

      Emails to all our shiny new faculty, welcoming them to campus. I love writing the email, hate sending it.

    12. Teapot Librarian*

      I sent an email documenting a terrible conversation I had yesterday. (For those paying attention to my weekly tales of my Hoarder Employee, this was NOT with that employee. It was someone out of my reporting line entirely.)

    13. bunniferous*

      I moved some files off my desktop. We are switching to all online files and it has been….an adjustment.

    14. Sparkly Librarian*

      It’s more that I was too busy than consciously putting it off, but I have wanted to organize this supply closet since I got here two months ago. This morning I FINALLY had 3 hours to myself and I emptied it ALLLLLLLL out, sorted it, moved everything onto the right shelves, disposed of a very small number of things, and put it back. You still cannot step inside (all floor space taken up with necessary items that come in and out for programs), but I know what I have and where it is. And as soon as I label the shelves (maybe tomorrow if it’s slow) so will anyone else who looks.

    15. NaoNao*

      I finally got an editor for my NaNo novel. He’s doing 4 hours up front at the “friend rate” for me and we’ll go from there. Ultimate goal is to self publish and become a STAH! :)

  4. Nancy Drew*

    I’ve been at my first company out of college for two years now. I recently got promoted from an entry level position, to a Teapot Supporter. As a Teapot Supporter, I’m responsible for getting our customers’ information inputted into a new Teapot program that we have available, that basically tells our customers how to get the most bang for their buck. However, our Teapot Account Managers are the ones responsible for encouraging their customers to take advantage of this program, and gather the information that I need to utilize the program. Getting their customers involved in the new Teapot program seems like an afterthought to most of our Teapot Account Managers, and we only have a few out of hundreds of customers taking advantage of the new Teapot program. In turn, this leaves me sitting at the office, bored out of my mind with nothing to do, 99% of the time.

    In my old position, I was steadily busy throughout the day, which I really enjoyed. I have no prior experience having absolutely nothing to work on all day, so I don’t know what to do with myself. Since I’m still new in my position, I try to spend my free time navigating around in the new Teapot program, just to familiarize myself with it, should I actually need to utilize it at some point. However, I can only do that for so long, before it feels redundant and pointless.

    The rest of my free time is usually spent surfing the net, and reading books online. Should I feel bad about this? I’ve asked my boss (who is often out of the office traveling) if he has any projects that I can work on it the meantime, but he keeps assuring me that “things will eventually pick up and customers will start utilizing the new Teapot program.” However, I’m not so sure. The woman who was in my position before me was here for 10 months, and left rather suddenly. The pay is great, and the employees are nice, so I can’t help but think she left because she couldn’t take the boredom anymore.

    I initially took this promotion because of the pay raise, and because my boss stressed how great he thought I’d be at my new job. But now, I’d honestly rather go back to my old position (which has now been filled), with my old salary, if it meant having something to do all day.

    I guess my question is – what should I do at this point? Start looking for new jobs? Take my boss’s word for it that this program will eventually be utilized my our customers? Be content with staring at a blank screen all day?

    Any help would be appreciated!

    1. babblemouth*

      Should you feel bad about it? No. But I suspect you do a bit, or at least that you’re bored enough that you know something needs to change.
      Could you start looking for ways to encourage account manager to sell the program more? finding data like “Client who signed up to the program reported XX% more satisfaction and were XX% more likely to buy another of our teapots within the next 12 months”. Surely the program must exist for a reason, and it could be up to you to highlight these more to the account managers.

      1. Nancy Drew*

        Unfortunately, I don’t have that kind of data to provide. It’s such a new program that those numbers aren’t necessarily available. There are several presentations that our corporate office has provided for account managers to present to their customers, that explain how the program can be beneficial to the customer. However, it’s a matter of the account managers actually taking this info to their customers.

        Another part of the problem is that because it’s been so slow in this position so far, I don’t necessarily have the expertise to highlight the importance to the account managers, besides steering them towards the materials provided by our corporate office on our company website.

        1. Observer*

          Two thoughts:

          1. Ask the managers why they don’t encourage people to use this more than they do. “Is there anything I can do to make it easier or more beneficial?”

          2. Look at the stuff Corporate has sent, and then see if you can come up with some better presentations. Even if they never get used, it will help you to understand the product in a better way, and it might help you figure out why the account managers are not using it as much as you think they should.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve gotten very good at my job and I get projects done in a quarter of the time I used to so I have lots of free time. I have tuition reimbursement so I started taking classes online. I don’t feel as bad if I am working on work relevant homework when I have downtime.

    3. SM*

      Are you in a position to put together materials that account managers can send to clients about how great the new program is? Or create forms that make it easy for the account managers to get the info you need from clients without more work on their part? How about writing a guide or fact sheet for the program? That way, if utilization suddenly picks up and you have so much work that your company needs a second person in the role, they can get on board quickly to support you.

      Otherwise, I would look into online courses that interest you :).

      1. Nancy Drew*

        There’s actually already a plethora of materials that our corporate office has provided (and requires) the account managers to use when they’re pushing the program to their customers. I do offer to send them any materials they need via email, print documents, etc., but most of the time, they say, “yeah, I’ll take you up on that at some point, I’m just too busy with other stuff right now.”

        I actually have been looking into some online classes, though. :)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Is this program something you could help them sign up for and/or start using? Offer some kind of concierge service?

        2. TootsNYC*

          or develop a “fill in the blank” or “confirm the info” sort of email that might get them to join, if you can make it easier?

    4. stitchinthyme*

      Years ago I took a job where I didn’t even get a computer for a month (I am a software developer, so a computer is kind of essential to my job function), and even when I did I didn’t get anything to do. The excuse I was given was that most of my group was in a different office; they were supposed to be moved to mine, and they didn’t want to put me over there only to have to move me back when everyone else did. But the effect was that I never had anything to do, and even worse, the company was strict about security and didn’t allow any Internet access, so I couldn’t even surf — I resorted to bringing books (this was in the days before smartphones).

      I stood it for about four months. At that point there was still no word on when the rest of my group would be moving, and I still had nothing to do, so when another job offer came along, I jumped ship. Since most of my group was in a different office, I didn’t really get acquainted with too many people there, but the one person I had chatted with a bit told me a year or two later that the entire group had been laid off. So I’m glad I left.

    5. Bagpuss*

      Would it be possible for you to speak to your manager to ask about whether you could start to reach out directly to clients?
      You could go into the discussion with facts about the number of leads your getting given, as a proportion of clients / client contacts the account managers have (if you have access to that info) and make specific suggestions about how you might be able to address it.

      Is there anything it it might be possible to combine it with? (e.g .following up seeking general feedback, and offering the clients the additional information)

      Does your Boss also manger the account manager? If not, could he liaise with those who do to get them to push the account managers to do what they are supposed to?

      Do you know any of the account managers well enough to be able to talk to one of them to ask whether there are any reasons from their perspective why they aren’t raising it with clients? If so, you might then be able to talk to your own manager about how that might be overcome. (for instance, are they supposed to deal with enquiries in a certain time frame, so spending time on an extra thing isn’t in their interests? Do they get paid commission so saving clients money would have a negative impact on them etc)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Reaching out directly is a great idea.

        As I read through this, my one concern was do the account managers realize they will still get credit for the sale if it’s done online? That could be a hidden hurdle here.

        Otherwise if the hurdle is just lack of time, then you doing the out reach would be a great idea.

    6. Bostonian*

      I would say give it a few months. There’s a good chance your work volume will pick up. And if it doesn’t, you can go back to your manager and really press about taking on additional/long-term projects to fill the down time. You can say that after X amount of time has passed, it’s still slow ask him to revisit considering to give you additional work.

    7. Poster Child*

      I would look for a new job…you don’t have to take it if the salary or anything else doesn’t seem ideal. But a job where you have nothing to do most of the time is very easy for the company to eliminate if needed. Sounds like your boss likes you. If you don’t think it will hurt your position and you have a good relationship with your boss, you can be very clear about how little you’re actually doing all day. Maybe your boss thinks you’re only bored 50% of the time instead of 99% of the time.

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      Can you focus on finding ways to promote the programme internally and externally?

    9. Hillary*

      Were you explicit with your boss that you’re bored and don’t have enough work to fill your hours? That might be what it takes to get more to do. If he says the same as last time you talked to him, I’d ask him if there are any skills he’d like to see you develop and find some ways to study those.

    10. Borgette*

      I’m dealing with a similar situation! Things have picked up, but there are still weeks between projects when there’s really nothing for me to work on. When things are slow I work on learning new skills. I’ve done Codecademy and Edx courses, gotten involved in industry forms and communities, and built a professional portfolio/blog. For me, thinking of the slow times as having a scholarship/grant to study whatever I want really helped.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Well… to be honest as you are new in the position it might just be this way for a bit. Generally these things sort themselves out as you get involved with projects and things get busier. But one thing stood out for me:
      “Teapot Account Managers are the ones responsible for encouraging their customers to take advantage of this program, and gather the information that I need.”

      OK, so why can’t YOU be doing this? Why can’t YOU be encouraging customers to take advantage of the program?
      Do some outreach girl! Go to your Teapot Account Managers and ask them what you can do to help them with this. What can you implement to gather the information yourself? How can you reach these customers?

  5. Ron*

    (Don’t read this if you’re squeamish or have any degree of arachnophobia)

    I was watching this show where a (British) comedian was talking about a job interview he once had. Basically, on the way there he has walked into a hedge or something like that, but after dusting himself off he didn’t think any more of it.

    Later during the interview, he noticed something out of the corner of his eye, and it turns out that a spider’s egg sac had caught in his hair when he walked into the hedge, and was now hatching tiny spiders down from his hair.

    He said he tried to subtly swat them away, and was incredulous that the interviewer didn’t stop the process despite this.

    When he was leaving, he said ‘I’m sorry to be the bringer of spiders”…but it turned out the interviewer didn’t even notice them (guess they would’ve been tiny) and just thought he was mad.

    (His point of the story was that he said something bizarre in an interview, but all I could think was ‘arrrrrrrrgh!!!’.)

    1. Kalamet*

      Eeeeeeek. I’m quite impressed at his composure, because I probably would have shrieked and danced around the room if I noticed spiders on me.

      1. JanetM*

        I saw on Facebook something to the effect of, “This interpretive dance brought to you by ‘Oh dear gods there’s a spider on me!’ The next one will be, ‘Oh sh*t, where did it go?!'”

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Yeah, I consider myself pretty comfortable with spiders (I have a platoon of them keeping the mosquitoes of my porch right now) and there’s still no way I’d sit there calmly while spiders hatched in my hair. No. Freaking. Way.

      …No.

    3. kbeers0su*

      This is my nightmare. I think it stems from one of those silly horror kids books where a girl gets a bump on her face and thinks nothing of it until baby spiders come crawling out….

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        I read this and it triggered a sudden and vivid memory of that story… and now my skin is crawling!

    4. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I foolishly read this even though I have arachnophobia. I know you warned me, but I was thinking there were no pictures so it would be fine. I was wrong. So wrong.

    5. OhNo*

      Oh, man. I am super scared of spiders and I had something like this happen to me once – except I didn’t notice, and the other person did.

      I was in a meeting with a couple of my coworkers about a project, and suddenly one of them got a really odd look on her face and said, “OhNo, don’t move.” Obviously, I immediately froze, while the rest of my coworkers all stared at me like I just grew a second head. She came over with a piece of paper and started walking around one side of me and said “Don’t look!”, Cue two seconds of complete panic, then SWAT right on my shoulder, and everybody started shrieking. I thought my whole office had just erupted in mass hysteria for no reason.

      Turns out there was a spider on my shoulder. My coworker knew that I am terrified of spiders, so she was trying to kill it before I saw it and freaked out. Except she missed, and the spider went flying, so everybody panicked. The rest of the meeting devolved into trying to find the spider, and I spent the rest of the day with the heebie-jeebies thinking I felt something crawling on me.

      We never did find the spider.

      2. Rainy, PI*

        I had to pull a hair-coloured spider from my new supervisor’s hair after a meeting across campus a few weeks ago.

        She’s afraid of spiders so I said casually “hey, you have a bug in your hair, here let me get it” so she wouldn’t freak out. It was big, too. So, so big. So we’re standing in the hall and I’m trying to extract this spider from her hair without smashing spider into her hair like the grossest hair product on earth, when a coworker walks up, says “what are you d–OH MY GOD THAT SPIDER IS HUGE.”

        So then my boss is dancing around and the coworker is going on not helping and I’m still in the middle of attempting to pull this enormous blonde spider out of her hair–did I mention she’s taller than me?

        It was exciting.

    6. Amber T*

      Why did I read this when you warned us? Why do I do this to myself.

      I walked through a spider web yesterday and was convinced I had spiders in my hair. Even after I took a shower, every stray strand of hair or cat fur or whatever was randomly brushing against me made me jump. Uggh now I’m itchy again.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This happens to me in the summer, usually—they like to build enormous webs from the bushes near my front door across the stoop. So every morning I would become really great at karate.

        This summer has been weird. I haven’t seen any. Not complaining! I think it’s the weather.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’m impressed. I’d have a hard time keeping my composure with baby spiders in my hair, and I like spiders.

      Your story reminded me of my first day at a former job. I saw my desk was in a corner with a black widow up in the ceiling corner above it, and another black widow kitty-corner across the office. I was fine with that (for a few days or weeks) until the spider above me disappeared. I tracked her down and jarred her. And for the rest of that job, I was the co-worker who kept spiders in a jar on her desk, and whom other co-workers brought bugs to feed the spiders.

    8. bunniferous*

      Since we are sharing spider stories-since I sell foreclosured homes for the VA, that means I go into a lot of vacant houses. A few of them are spidery. The one I went into yesterday had big honking blond spiders-several sashaying across the floor, some in webs in corners, and one particularly large one strolling across a wall.

      One of my duties is taking pictures of these houses. So naturally I sent them a picture of said spider. Hey, if I have to see it, so do they.

  6. Regularly Distracted*

    First thing, I wanted to let you guys know that I did successfully complete my PIP! It just took them almost two weeks to meet with me to let me know.

    Secondly, I am hoping to get some advice on the following.

    A little bit of background before my question, I went on the PIP during the month that I was supposed to complete a performance review. The way my company works, the only raise you can get is from the annual review. There is no cost of living increase outside of that. I did my half of the performance review process, but my boss did not, likely because of me going on the PIP and it happening to be our busy season. My boss has not mentioned anything about finishing my performance review since then.

    Can I ask my boss to finish my performance review? Or would that be totally out of line?

    If it wasn’t for the fact that I won’t be up for even a cost of living increase until next june, I would be happy with the way things are now. I would also like to get an update on how my boss thinks I am doing. I don’t feel like I get much feedback during the year.

    The money does of course factor in, but I can live with no raise until next year if the answer to my question is no. I wanted to get some advice on whether this is totally out of line and if it isn’t, how to phrase my request.

      1. Regularly Distracted*

        That’s what I was thinking, but I wanted to ask someone else to make sure.

        Thank you!

      2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Agreed. While you deserve congratulations for successfully completing a PIP, I don’t think they’re likely to be considering giving you a raise right now. I’m sorry!

      3. Reporting to an Incompetent boss seems to be common*

        I disagree. A performance review would incorporate the fact that there was a PIP and that it was successful. Presumably every item in the performance review wouldn’t be unsatisfactory, just the category/ies that justified the PIP. It’s a document that goes into the personnel file, and there could be a new boss next month who would be looking at that file. If I were in those shoes I’d want a fully fleshed out performance review on file.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Usually people are not PIP’d based on one issue that does not have spillover effects on other major performance areas. A PIP is a form of performance review; it’s just not a pleasant one.

          You can certainly want a different document to serve as your review, but I don’t think it’s realistic to expect one or wise to request one (because the latter makes you look like you don’t understand the seriousness or nature of a PIP). And I have not met many managers who see a PIP in someone’s file and go, “Wow, I wish there were also a separate performance review from the same period.”

    2. Amtelope*

      I don’t think it’s realistic to hope to get a raise right after having been on a PIP, and any performance review right now would have to include the problems that led to you being placed on a PIP. I wouldn’t push to complete the review process. By next year, hopefully, your boss will have more positive things to say.

    3. Southern Ladybug*

      I agree. And I were your manager, I would be taken aback that you expected a raise immediately after finishing a PIP that allowed you to keep you job. Unless the cost of living increases are all across the board and the same for everyone, I think you need to let it go until next year. In my work, COLAs are for everyone at the same time. They do not occur with performance reviews.

    4. TCO*

      I don’t know the details of your PIP, but in general it looks really out-of-touch to ask for a performance-based raise so shortly after your performance was poor enough that they considered firing you. It would suggest that you don’t understand how serious their concerns about your performance were. Raises aren’t guaranteed; they’re earned.

      If, on the other hand, you want more frequent feedback to help you continue to improve your performance, I think you have the standing to ask for that, given that you’re really trying to improve your work but aren’t hearing much about how well that’s working for the company. Don’t ask for a performance review; ask for regular (maybe quarterly) informal feedback meetings with your boss.

      If you can’t continue to live on this salary, maybe it’s time to consider moving on to a different job. It sounds like your time at this company has been rocky and they don’t think of you as a top performer. Maybe it’s not a good fit.

    6. Apollo Warbucks*

      I would not ask for a raise after being on a PIP it won’t reflect well on you.

      If I were in your situation I would ask for regular one to ones to keep track of progress, making the request more about performance rather than about getting a raise and it will come across better.

      1. Bibliovore*

        Adding, I had to do a required performance review while an employee was on a PIP. It was a misery since the review covered the same ground including the issues that put the employee on the PIP. Although there was improvement, it felt like the employee wanted a raise for adequately doing her job. She was peeved at not receiving the lowest raise pe centage.

  7. Jesca*

    I had stated in the comments on the post involving the boundary crossing male coworker, that I was in a similar but slightly more bizarre situation. So here is the story as promised! Maybe someone can offer up more on what I tried!

    In order to fully convey my feelings and misgivings towards this guy, I will need to provide some background. I only recently started at my current about 6 months ago, coming out of a business that was toxic and poorly ran (think every bad management thing anyone has ever written in about on AAM!)

    No, aside from the screaming CEO, the public humiliation of managers, the standing on chairs screaming and throwing things, and the complete lack of skill needed through all departments to compete AND stay compliant within this Federally regulated industry, there was of course poor management (LOL)!

    There are many crazy stories of poor management and poor behavior of subordinates to fill 20 AAM questions, but the worst of them all involves a woman I like to refer to Hurricane Karen. When one thinks of Karen, all the negative traits written about on here of the *worst* coworker comes to mind. All Of Them. And then some …

    She would not work. When she did work, it was not on anything needed or worthwhile. She could clearly not complete the job she was hired for (specialist for regulations in our industry) and it was obvious that she lied in numerous places on her resume. But lies were pretty par for the course.

    There was a lot of insane oversharing of her extremely dysfunctional home life (think drug abuse, child protective services, selling drugs, yeah you use your imagination). Many of these stories were horrifying and involved her fiancé, lets call him “Heathcliff” (remember him. He is important later).

    she also lied about people at work. She regularly would make up wild stories to try to cover that she was not working. Many of these involved sabotaging other coworkers to try to get them fired just to take the heat off her herself. A few people did end up getting fired before the dust settled and she was exposed! But alas, still management sucked and did not fired her!
    But the worst was, whether was she conveying some horrible story about how they were threatening to take away her kids or how she raged in the CEOs office the day before trying to get a boss fired, she always just acted like these things were like life prizes. Like “look at all this attention and look how drama filled and awesome I am.” She always said and did these things like she won the lottery. Not ever in a way to show that she was an awful person who needed to feel remorse!

    Eventually, she assaulted someone outside of work (actually, this was who she was texting all day as opposed to working). Came into work the next day and explained away like she won some grand prize. Nothing about her said “wow, I really lost control. I can’t believe that happened”. This person has apparently had the nerve to call her out on a damaging lie. This is when I became concerned.

    Shortly around this time she started showing up to work less and less. When she would, she would begin to nod off during conversations and even while eating! Drippling her food all down her front! And still, management did nothing.
    So I decided to leave (had to put in at least 2 years here) as this person was both professionally and personally a huge danger.

    As a long time reader, I ransacked AAM, drew up a bang ass resume and cover letter and owned the interview! I landed a job with a 30% increase in pay and half the stress! Thanks AAM!

    So now fast forward. Heathcliff (remember him?) now works were I work! I know things about this guy. I know he abuses drugs heavily. I know he has become violent. I know he lost his last job under very unsavory circumstances. I know all this as it was verified by others and not just from her. I also know this massive company goes cheap on background checks. I also know that Heathcliff took a keen interest in me from when he first started.

    Day one, he sought out my cubical in the 80 or so on this floor alone. My cubical is not posted on some directory either. He. Sought. It. Out. I did not in any way want to have any type of contact with anyone so closely related to dangerous Hurricane Karen. Plus I already had a pretty good idea that this guy was not exactly sane either.

    I responded to this with *cool* and *polite*. When he brought up his ex, I gave a general response cool and polite. He didn’t get it. He kept trying to find ways to talk to me. I kept getting cooler and cooler. Went down to one answer responses while turning to someone else and speaking warmly. Still was not getting it. The one day I was walking down to the café to get a snack. He saw me and seemed to me changed his course and began following me. I began walking even faster and really going at a clip down the steps. Next thing I knew, he was practically right on top of me behind me! We were totally alone. So I kept going even faster and went into the café. He blew right past me, through the doors and circled back. Never got a thing. I was creeped.

    It reached a pinnacle the next day when went I outside for a break. I noticed he was out there, but I was so annoyed by the day before and by his behavior in general, that I felt like I shouldn’t have to hold off my break just because he wants to be weird. So I went. Big Mistake. He tried up conversation. I went cold one answers. Turned my body away. He walked around to look in my face. Became almost frantic asking me what I did for the company. What is my job. Is it about him!!!! He got about 8 inches from my face with this frantic, angry, horrifying face. His whole body was shaking. I walked around him and walked (ran) back inside. I immediately told some people around me what happened as I could not assess for myself if it was worth taking higher. I don’t want to make waves being so new.

    Now, he has stopped talking to me. Im not sure if maybe one of the two people I talked to about it said something to him or not. From what I could understand from the loud oversharing conversations he has conveniently with the woman beside me, is that the court forced him into rehab so he could have visitation with his kids. But the staring. Omg the staring. And the finding reasons to walk past my cubical. HE will also lean over my cubical walls as he walks by to see me and see what I am doing. The other day though, he did the same following me thing he did before. This time I immediately stopped, turned around, and went back to where other people are. If I walk up like say to my desk, and he happens to be camped out at my neighbor’s desk, He will stand up and look right at me like expecting me to make eye contact! It is so creepy. I have taken time now to ensure I am never alone with him and I check behind me frequently while driving home. Does anyone have any advice on what I can do? I am afraid management may think ME crazy for all of this. AM I crazy? There is a lot of talk around the office about this guy and personal space. Maybe I should just laugh it off and continue to ignore? I don’t know! I have been in positions where sexual harassment has escalated. But, I just don’t know!

    1. babblemouth*

      You don’t mention if you have raised this with your manager and/or HR. If not, this should be your immediate first step. It also sounds like he comes to the floor oyu work on solely to look at you. Can you confirm that he doesn’t actually normally work there? If that’s the case, HR will absolutely want to know.
      He sounds like he could easily go from “pretty creepy” to “physically violent” and you are more than justified to report his behaviour.

      2. Jesca*

        He works on my same floor. But he does use the excuse of coming to the neighboring cubical to discuss his personal life with the woman there. He has actually successfully infiltrated himself into her life to the point where knowing what I do know it is concerning. I tried to discuss this with her, but he has been “so helpful”.

        See it is all so nuanced. Outside of that weird incident outside, he hasn’t done anything that would be obvious. And since his stint in rehab, he hasn’t tried to talk to me at all. But the staring still happens. The leaning over my cubical wall (we have low walls) while he walks past still happens. But all nuanced.

        1. Snark*

          No, there’s no nuance at all there. He’s still harassing you, unambigiously and flagrantly.

    2. Hey Anonny Nonny*

      You’ve got to report this behavior to HR. He is being aggressive and threatening and someone needs to speak to him. Document everything he’s done and take it to HR. If you don’t have an HR, take it to your manager. Don’t just hope this will go away.

      1. Snark*

        And record every single interaction you have with him – date, time, location, and nature of interaction.

    3. Snark*

      JESUS CHRIST NO DO NOT LAUGH IT OFF and NO YOU ARE NOT CRAZY.

      This guy is harassing you. He is making you feel unsafe and threatened. He knows you know all his dirty secrets and he is trying to implicitly threaten you into silence and complicity. You absolutely must take this mortally seriously because this guy is a danger to you, and he is escalating his interactions with you, and he clearly is unstable and has an unhealthy and dangerous level of interest in you, what you know, and the notional level of threat you pose to him. Go to HR, go to your boss, go to his boss, go to the cops if you must.

      And just to give you a little shake: why on Earth are you doubting yourself here? Why are you even considering, for a moment, laughing it off, or thinking you’re crazy? You know better, I know you do, so why are you talking yourself out of it?

      2. President Porpoise*

        It sounds to me like she’s having trouble shaking off the dysfunction of her previous workplace, and it’s making her question her instincts here.

        I agree with Snark (actually, I usually agree with Snark). You need to bring tis to your boss’s attention. If he thinks you’re a threat to him (and it sounds like he does), he may try to sabotage your work or reputation. He may get physically violent or continue his harassment. They need to be made aware of his behavior so they can ensure a safe working environment.

        I don’t know if you should bring up the dirty laundry you know about him, though. It might be a good idea, it might not.

        1. Jesca*

          I think you may have convinced me. I guess I have been wondering why? Why in earth is he so freaking fixated? For me, if i started a new place where i knew a coworker of my crazy ex now works, I would never ever try to go talk to them! I would not want people to know about my association. Especially knowing how much said crazy ex talks. But I see now that he sees me as a threat to him.

          I think I am struggling with the thoughts of past experiences from years ago where I won’t be taken seriously by HR. Also, he is creepy. He is creepy enough that other people have made comments that he seems like the type who will just go off the deep end one day.

          As far as outing him as to what I know about him, I would not do this. 1) I have only listed above what was verifiable as correct. His ex said some other things that may or may not be true. 2) Even with the stuff above, i think it would make me look petty. I am new and have no “rock star” standing like I did at last employer.

          1. Snark*

            “I guess I have been wondering why? Why in earth is he so freaking fixated?”

            It really doesn’t matter, though. Those are questions to ponder over a glass of something relaxing, a few months from now when this is all in the past, not questions that need to be answered before you go to HR and report that he is behaving in a harassing and threatening way towards you.

            Go now. Like, right after you read this.

          2. Snark*

            Just what he’s done to you so far, maybe with the context that he was involved with someone at your old job, would be enough to make any HR professional worth their job VERY concerned.

          3. Kately*

            You know, I wonder if he thinks you’re a plant or a spy, to see if he’s doing his job and fulfilling custody/rehab commitments? Just based on his panicked interrogation about “why are you here? What is your job??!!”

            Strongly agreeing with other people here about going to your manager – even if she is away, document it via email, and definitely loop in any coworkers. The more people you tell about this, the better. Channel your inner Alison and describe the situation clearly and in a matter-of-fact manner.

          4. Observer*

            You should ABSOLUTELY bring up the verifiable stuff and the STUFF HE SAID IN YOUR PRESENCE. This is TOTALLY NOT petty! (Yes, I’m raising my voice.)

            What you know about his is that he has been violent in the past and has behaved in such a manner that socials services had to be called in and he had to be kept away from his children! This is not petty stuff – this is TOTALLY relevant to your safety – and the safety of all of your coworkers!

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            First, I agree with others that it doesn’t really matter why he’s fixated on you. This is like the OP who wondered what she did to “not enforce” boundaries properly. She did nothing—the other guy was the one who was out of line. That’s the case here, too.

            That said, here’s my speculation. He sounds extremely anxious/paranoid based on your last pretty intense interaction. It sounds like he knows you know things about him from his prior life/job (which you do, and you also know Karen, who both you and he know is manipulative and a liar), he’s worried you’ll share information from his prior life that could affect his rehab or visitation. For example, if he loses his job because his bosses find out information they didn’t seek through a thorough reference check process. He also doesn’t understand your role and is bizarrely worried that someone put you there to watch him and help him fail. None of that is rational, and the very last part makes me wonder if he is still taking illicit substances or if he’s grappling with related issues that are warping his perception of reality. Or perhaps it’s what happens from long-term exposure to Hurricane Karen.

            None of that is your fault, and there’s nothing you can do to mitigate his reaction. But I think you should proceed, as Snark has recommended, with the understanding that (1) he’s not in his right mind; and (2) he’s exhibited threatening behavior that places your safety at risk. Normally I would recommend having a direct conversation with him, but I don’t think it would be safe for you to do because I don’t think he’s sane right now (I don’t say that to be pejorative; it’s just not normal for someone to become frantic and demand to know your job because they’re convinced you’re there to spy on them or otherwise ruin their life).

            I think you’re right not to out him, just because, at the moment, there’s no reason to do it. His prior drug use, etc., doesn’t really change that his current behavior is independently threatening and not ok and worth reporting to HR/your manager simply because it’s bizarre and threatening. That said, you don’t have to be a “rock star” before you’re allowed to complain about threatening behavior. You just need to be honest and no-drama about sharing that information.

          6. Louise*

            Oh gosh the why almost certainly has nothing to do with you or anything you’ve done. This guy sounds like a violent creep, and I’m sure you’re not the only woman he’s done it to. If you’re still nervous about going to HR, maybe try thinking about it as you making sure he doesn’t do this to other women – or if he does, there will at least be documentation that this is a pattern! Sometimes when I don’t feel confident standing up for myself, I think about standing up for all my amazing female friends and that a lot of the time gives me the courage to speak up.

    4. Myrin*

      Oh my goodness, NO, you are NOT crazy! That sounds horrifying and scary and I’m creeped out by this appropriately-named, staring weirdo.

      If you don’t have any tangible reason for thinking that HR/management at your current company will indeed look unfavourably at you, not him, I’d definitely say something. This needs to end as soon as possible.
      (A test for that might be: How did the people you told after the following-you incident react? Were they sympathetic? Protective? Are did they just handwave it away? If they reacted positively, you might want to try and find support among their ranks as well.)

    5. LavaLamp*

      You’re not crazy. Definitely not crazy. My first piece of advice is to get a notebook or even the notes app on your phone and record each and every weird instance. Like ‘Tuesday 8:45 am, Heathclif followed me to cafe and crowded me in empty stairwell’. Go back and write it all down every last bit.

      After you have enough documentation I’d decide weather to loop in a manager you trust or if he gets super creepy, talk to your police department about your options. they might have some additional advice I don’t know of.

      In the meantime focus on being a superstar at work so when you do loop in someone there will be more weight behind your complaint.

      1. JustaTech*

        You might even consider putting the list some place like Google Docs (or elsewhere in the cloud) so it can’t be lost like a notebook or even your phone.

    6. Lora*

      No. Do not laugh it off. Go tell your boss right now. We’ll wait. If your boss gives you static, tell HR. Do it right now, today. This is a very big deal.

      1. Snark*

        Seconded, with feeling. Go there right now. I’m honestly extremely concerned for your physical safety.

      2. Lora*

        Also tell them the whole history, because it gives context to why he is doing this creeping thing. It’s not coming out of nowhere.

      3. Jesca*

        I would go right now, but she is on vacation! Then she is out of town on business. With that said, we do not have HR on site that would help with this. This is one of those large 10000+ companies where the HR that would actually get involved lives in another state.

        Otherwise, I would definitely at this point. I do have a good report with my manager and she would be the person I would feel most comfortable going to in regards to this. This is a pretty male dominated industry, so I know from previous experience how this can go.

        1. Alli525*

          Then PLEASE go to your manager today. You do not need to suffer this in silence, and risk your safety, for one minute longer.

        2. Observer*

          Email her!

          She may or may not be looking at email when on vacation, but she WILL look at email once she’s back, even if she’s not in the office. Mark it as high priority. If you’re not in the habit of doing that that should catch her attention.

        3. Lora*

          I’m in a male dominated industry too. Go speak to your manager. Guys know what Creepy is.

        4. NoMoreMrFixit*

          Then go to whoever is above your boss. Plus email your boss so they’re in the loop on what’s happening. This is not something to delay. This guy is potentially a threat.

        5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          You have to talk to your manager right now. Try to keep your conversation focused on the creepy behavior. Explain that you worked with Heathcliff’s fiance, and that she shared personal information about him with her coworkers (including you), and then describe the experience where he got in your face. But focus on the creepy behavior, because it is independently not ok and worth sharing, even if you had no idea what his prior behavior/struggles were.

        6. Natasha*

          I got chills read in your story. He sounds genuinely frightening, and I’m sorry you have to deal with this. I think any person who heard these details would understand where you’re coming from.

    7. Naptime Enthusiast*

      I just went to a self defense class and all of the behaviors you’re describing are exactly what they recommended to watch out for in public with strangers. You’re doing the right thing by trusting your gut and walking back to where people are so you’re not alone with him. Since you know about his past (though how much of it came from lying Hurricane Karen? Be wary of how true some stories are), don’t let yourself be put into a 1-on-1 situation with him. Talk to your manager if you trust them to take your concerns seriously, and if they share them, you can say you worked with his ex and know more about his personal life than you would like to, but you don’t need to share those details because from what I can see, it’s heresay from a known liar. Ask for a security escort to your car – you don’t have to say it’s because you’re afraid of him specifically. Walk confidently, don’t make eye contact but instead look at his chest so you can see his movements.

      From what you’re describing, I don’t think you’re crazy. I think the behavior is alarming in general but you notice it more because you know him and are already wary of his presence.

      1. Jesca*

        Everything I listed about him was able to be verified by third parties. There are a whole slew of other really crazy things she said about him that I have not listed, because I cannot tell if they are true …

        I think as snark pointed out, I was definitely not considering that this was personal with him. As in, I wasn;t taking his “attention” personally. I guess I felt he was just weird and boundary crossing with everyone. He crosses boundaries with others, but no one has told me any stories of the following me around (he just did that the other day after I think he overheard my boyfriend and I just broke up) or getting wildly crazy and paranoid in their faces either.

        1. Perse's Mom*

          The difference in this new job is that you have that other connection and a lot of knowledge about his history of problems and behavioral issues due to that. So *for you* more than for these new coworkers, his boundary crossing sets off alarm bells because you already know what he’s capable of.

          Spend a bit of time getting all your ducks in a row so that you can lay it out clearly for your manager as you have for us (hell, edit what you posted here already, print it out and take it with you). Express that Heathcliff is doing A, B, and C which all make you feel unsafe and alarmed, and while other coworkers at New Company have expressed agreement that he has problems with personal boundaries, you have a tangential personal connection to him from Old Company that makes you feel even more unsafe due to information you were able to verify from third parties.

        2. Observer*

          The boundary crossing does not make anything any better in the sense of making him any safer. But, it does mean that it should be harder for management to brush it off as “we’ve never seen anything out of line here.”

    8. Part-time lurker*

      Adding to the chorus. DON’T DOUBT YOURSELF – your instincts are correct (my heart was racing just reading this!). Just based on his actions (and not accounting for the extra information you know about him) you already have a case. Go to your manager/HR and continue to document.

      Until this is resolved, ask for someone to escort you to your car (maybe the people who already know). If you have some flexibility, change up your routine as much as possible. Park in different places (but not in isolated ones), Randomize your start, leave, and break times. Keep your conversations with other co-workers general in case he’s within ear shot (don’t give out any info that would establish time and place where you will be outside of work). It sucks because you didn’t do anything to provoke this. Try viewing this as temporary protective measures.

      Also, contact an organization that deals with domestic violence. Even though this is a co-worker, they can give you advice.

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, I got fight or flighty too. Good suggestions with randomizing your parking spaces and schedule.

    9. Anna*

      Please, please, please Jesca, run, do not walk, to HR and tell them everything you’ve said here. This guy is a danger to you and others around you. Even if you don’t want to share what you know of his past, his present behavior is enough to warrant a trip to HR.

    10. Observer*

      Why would you ignore this?

      Pull whatever information you can, that is public record.

      If he follows you, make sure to go back to people and TELL someone what just happened. You want to make sure that what is going on is KNOW and in as close to real time as possible.

      When he gets too close to you, step back and turn away. If he tries to move in again, tell him loudly enough to be heard by others to back off. When he stares at you for more than 30 seconds or so, ask him coldly and LOUDLY enough for others to hear “What are you looking for?” Again – you need to make sure that no one can ask you later if you tried to deal with it and / or why you didn’t tell anyone.

      Keep a log and write down, as accurately as you can, prior dates and events.

      He’s almost certainly going to keep on being a creep. Unless he ratchets it up, give it a week or two, then go to HR or your boss and be very explicit – don’t let them slough it off. People know that he has “problems” with personal space. “That’s just the way he is” is NOT an acceptable answer in any case, but especially not when you add the stuff on record and your log of inappropriate and frankly scary behavior.

    11. The Rat-Catcher*

      GO TELL SOMEONE!

      Aside from the safety concerns (which are Really Legitimate and Big Concerns), it doesn’t sound like there’s any way this isn’t interfering with your ability to do your job. Physically running away from someone, making sure you are not alone with them, and checking behind you while driving home are NOT precautions you should need to take with a coworker. (Don’t get me wrong, please keep taking those precautions – just be aware that they are NOT workplace-standard unless you are in law enforcement or some other such job.)

    12. bunniferous*

      Every red flag in the universe waved at me when I read your story. You need to speak up. At this point it is less about will your workplace think you are nuts and more about your personal safety, PERIOD.

    13. Menacia*

      I’ve come here to say something that does not seem to have been suggested yet…when ever you can, try to walk with someone when you are going anywhere, especially out to your car after work. Try not to be in any kind of location where others are not. You have to be aware at all times of your surroundings and where he is in relation to them. Make as many friends as you can with your other coworkers. And like everyone else has mentioned, document every interaction with him, and make sure when the HR person is back you make a beeline to their office.

  8. Cookie!*

    What’s the oddest conversation you’ve overheard in the office?

    Two of my co-workers (who sit on the other side of a partition from me) have been engaged in a lengthy conversation about how the Cookie
    Monster doesn’t really eat that much cookies because it all turns to crumbs and fall out of his mouth. Then they started talking about how he should be called ‘crumbs monster’ …and apparently the work cookie doesn’t exist in German?

    I don’t even know how the Cookie Monster topic came up to begin with but it’s been a weird series of tangents…

    2. Loopy*

      This is totally work inappropriate but I once overheard a coworker sharing this article about how some women were injured from falling off a balcony where they were having a threesome.

      1. Liane*

        And here I thought I’d have the most “adult” one:
        The friend who told me at work (one of our first conversations, actually) that my black just-below-knees boots with 2″ heels (which had been purchased at the very store we worked at, which isn’t known for selling anything kinkier than inexpensive everyday lingerie) were “Dominatrix Boots.”
        Me: “Don’t they wear thigh-high boots with 6-7″stiletto heels?”
        Friend: Nope, They wear these boots with black stockings. I know because I am a dom.”
        Me: Uh, okay, that’s…different…

        (In my defense for continuing this topic at all:
        1–it was so unexpected I gave a straight reply instead of “WTH did you just say?”
        2–I was bored-bored-BORED!!! on a shift with few customers

        2. I should probably go anon for this*

          Doms wear whatever they darned well feel like — that’s why they’re the dom! — unless they’re at an event with a dress code.

          *Professional* dominatrices often do wear the stereotypical thigh-highs with spike heels (or knee-highs with dark stockings, or CFM pumps and fishnets) because that’s what many of their clients expect. However, they don’t always, by any means, and most have a variety of outfits for different types of clients.

          Your friend the dom sounds like he needs to get out into his local community and meet more people :-).

    3. self employed*

      They don’t go in his mouth because he is a puppet! There is nowhere for them to go!

      Dying laughing. :)

        1. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

          And my other favorite, if Donald Duck doesn’t wear pants, why does he put a towel on the lower half of his body when he gets out of the shower?

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          My favorite is, “If Goofy is a dog, why does he have another dog as a pet?” The last time I had that conversation we got into the moral philosophy of a dog-based universe and whether Pluto was in bondage/slavery to Goofy.

          (The Cookie Monster convo totally made me smile, though.)

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      At my first job out of grad school, the VP and the director (who actually hated each other) once had a lengthy and detailed conversation about bikini waxes. Their own bikini waxes. Loudly. It was… special.

    5. AwkwardKaterpillar*

      This is 100% the kind of conversation have with people.

      I had a conversation once with a coworker about how empty coffee pots were really just filled with ghost coffee – because the carafe was just the vessel for the coffee.

    6. MicroManagered*

      False. The word “cookie” does exist in German; the word is Plätzchen. Cookie Monster is called Krümelmonster in German, which does literally mean “Crumb Monster” but I’d bed a dozen cookies that it has more to do with sounding more like Cookie Monster and because Plätzchenmonster just doesn’t have the same ring to it.

        1. Alli525*

          But hanging out in bed with a dozen cookies sounds so much more fun than risking those cookies on a bet! ;)

      3. Myrin*

        I’d never say a Plätzchen is a cookie! I mean, very technically it’s the umbrella term for all kinds of small sweet biscuits (something I as a German didn’t know until I googled it just now to find out whether there are regions that call all such biscuits “Plätzchen”), but Plätzchen are very specifically the sweet treats you bake before Christmas. “Keks” is the general neutral term but I’d say that “cookie” evokes a certain image of a round biscuit with chocolate chips which is not the case for “Keks”, which is a pretty broad term.

        (I don’t know if you are from Germany but if so, we must be from completely opposite regions – I’ve literally never in my life heard anyone use “Plätzchen” for anything but the Christmas “cookies”.)

    7. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

      I once was listening to coworkers ranking the murder weapons in Clue to which would actually be good and which were unrealistic. At first, I was worried they may be trying to kill someone but then when they started talking about what a conservatory was, I realized it was about clue!

      1. the work fairy*

        My coworkers and I once had a lengthy conversation about what would happen if an axe murderer were to barge in the office… who would he go to first, who has the safest desk, what is the best escape route. All of it with someone pretending to be an axe murderer and waving a big ruler around. we had a fun office.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I freaking do this all the time. Where would I go, how would I defend myself if I couldn’t escape, etc. I’m the person who stands in line at the post office thinking about what I’d do if the zombie apocalypse suddenly started. I also never sit with my back to the door in a restaurant. HATE that. I will literally make people move so I can face the entrance.

          Yeah, slightly paranoid. But when the zombies arrive, I want to be able to see them coming.

          1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

            Oddly enough zombie apocalypses come up a lot at my job. We were talking about this at lunch one day and the question I always have is whats the goal of surviving the zombie apocalypse? Is there a thought that there is somewhere where it’s zombie free and you’re trying to get to that? Because with how the world works and how easily stuff can travel so quickly, I would think anything would spread pretty easily I’d rather go the route of the old couple on the titanic.

            1. Ego Chamber*

              At a previous job, one of my coworkers inexplicably found a random length of 2×4 hidden between the side of his cubicle and the wall (he had recently moved to that cube after the person who used to work there changed jobs). We speculated about it for a while, then he put it back, and we continued to reference the “emergency zombie outbreak defense mechanism” for months. :)

          2. Jo*

            When I worked in a conflict zone, attacks on NGO offices did periodically happen in our city. Figuring out an escape plan was pretty standard anytime you went anywhere, so my office-mates and I used to try to work out escape routes from our office in case of an attack.

            However, that eventually led to a running joke about how we were the expendable ones because our office was on the ground floor right next to the (non-secure) front door. Thus, no escape would be possible for us. Fortunately, nothing happened (at our particular office) while I was there.

    8. Grits McGee*

      Our interns started a contest at their going-away brunch to see who had the worst make out story.

    9. Paige Turner*

      The Crumb Monster, that is amazing!
      I overheard the guy in the cube across from me call several different Dunkin’ Donuts, because he had placed a large order for pickup but had forgotten which location. The conversation was like, “Hello, do you have an order for one hundred munchkins?…What?…No, munchkins…No?” Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

      Also, the person at the cube on the other side from me was a Chatty Cathy and I overheard many stories about her guinea pigs, who were all named after famous figures in Irish history. 0_O

    10. Foreign Octopus*

      One of my co-workers made an off hand comment about how I never wore heels (uncomfortable and I’m tall enough without them). Being delightfully naive and new to the workplace, I then launched into a long spiel about how I liked to dress just in case a zombie apocalypse happened and how I didn’t want to be caught up in it wearing heels. All of this was said with perfect sincerity on my part and greatly amused my co-workers.

      1. Artemesia*

        Actually everyone should always have a comfortable pair or shoes they could walk 20 miles in at their workplace; a lot of women on 9/11 wish they didn’t have to walk miles in heels.

    11. Fabulous*

      Once at an old job, a coworker was raving up and down the cubicle aisle about how she thought she used sour milk in her cereal that morning. Literally off her rockers ranting that she’s going to get sick and how could she not have seen the date. I made a quiet comment to my neighbor about it (nothing about her, just that I always smell my milk before using it to ensure its freshness) and then this lady nearly attacked me! She cornered me at my desk and would. not. relent. A manager finally had to come and drag her away. Oddly, this was the only crazy behavior I’d ever experienced from her, so I guess that’s a good thing!

      On a separate note, at another job I overheard someone in a department talking about a coworker named Mantequilla. For those of you who do not speak Spanish – it means BUTTER. I had a good laugh about that one!

    12. kbeers0su*

      I work on a university campus, and there is a whole crew of student employees who work here, as well. So…all sorts of odd conversations. My favorite was the day they had a long argument about whether buckeyes (chocolate covered peanut butter balls) were cookies or candy. It was a true debate, including internet searches, recipe reviews, and votes at the end. It lasted about half the work day.

      4. Buffy*

        Haha, I read your description and KNEW it had to be Ohio State. Then I saw your username. :) Fellow Big-Ten-er here!

      5. oldbiddy*

        I also work with students. They used to have these type of conversations at lunch. We spent several days on the condiments vs sauces argument.
        It’s not just students, though. Chemistry Twitter has a semi-ongoing debate on what is and isn’t a sandwich.

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Obviously candy. C’mon, they’re OSU students—how do they not know this? (I mean, to be fair, buckeyes are nuts, but I get that they’re referring to a different kind of buckeye.)

    13. esra (also a Canadian)*

      We have a months long debate going on about what constitutes a sandwich.

      It started with “What constitutes bread?” with factions quickly rising that it specifically needs to be a leavened bake, breaking all the way down to the bread anarchists who argue that basically everything is bread. So what’s a sandwich? Is a hotdog a sandwich? Is an open-faced sandwich a sandwich? A pita? A pop-tart?

      The rabbit-hole goes deep.

      1. Pwyll*

        Is this a thing now? The “hotdogs are not sandwiches” discussion is raging hard at my workplace.

        1. JeanB in NC*

          I’m sure you mean verbally slapped around but now I’m picturing people leaning across the table to slap him around. (Burritos are not sandwiches!)

          1. Snark*

            Oh, no, he got one smartly upside the head from me. Snorked his beer in a most satisfying way.

          2. Pwyll*

            It’s even better if you picture them being slapped around WITH a burrito for special emphasis.

        2. Karo*

          It’s been proven by a court of law that it’s not a sandwich. In Massachusetts, Panera had a contract that they would be the only sandwich company in their shopping center. The shopping center added a Qdoba, and Panera fought its opening in court, where the judge decided that a burrito is not a sandwich.

      3. The Rat-Catcher*

        Somewhere I saw a chart about your D&D alignment corresponding with what you believe constitutes a sandwich, wherein the Law/Chaos axis represented the structure of the sandwich and the Good/Evil axis represented ingredients (I think).

      4. Alter_ego*

        We just had an hours long debate about this in my group chat with my friends. The wrongest friend says that anything with carbs on two sides is a sandwich, and anything with carbs on three sides, is a taco. Which makes hot dogs tacos.

    14. MissMaple*

      Yesterday one of the supervisors was telling the interns some story about meeting Avril Lavigne. They were confused, so he decided to sing “Sk8er Boi” so they’d know who he meant. Then the interns were like, oh that came out when we were in first grade. So yeah, both super weird and making us all feel old :)

        1. ThatGirl*

          About 10 years ago, I was 26 and working at a Target Starbucks between “real” jobs. I was having a conversation with a teen who worked there and mentioned Dan Quayle. She had no idea who I meant. I said “he was vice president from 88-92” and she’s like “oh I was born in 1991” ….

          1. The Rat-Catcher*

            I’m one year older than she is and definitely knew who Dan Quayle was even ten years ago…LOL

      2. Mine Own Telemachus*

        My intern and I today were sharing stories about gas prices. I mentioned that I was living in Chicago in 2012 and saw prices above 4.50/gallon.

        He replied that he wasn’t even driving then.

        1. Drew*

          Gas prices near my house when I got my license were 79 cents/gallon for regular unleaded. Granted, that was REALLY low because two convenience stores got into a price war, but even the “expensive” places had it for around 1.15-1.20 back then.

      3. CS Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        I made a reference to Ally McBeal the other day and a 23 year old account rep in the room with my was totally confused.

    15. LQ*

      I JUST overheard someone say “I don’t have an agenda sir.”
      (It was clearly about a secret agenda not like an actual agenda for a meeting.)

      I once heard my boss, after calmly explaining why something wasn’t happening about 6 times to one of my coworkers, say “Well I’m sitting in this chair and you aren’t.”

      But I suspect that I am the person who people often overhear. I have a naturally loud voice which I work hard to bring down and spend a lot of time softly speaking, but it’s still loud, people have definitely over heard me say some wacky things!

    16. Nancy Drew*

      My supervisor has told EVERYONE in the office how one of her 4-year old twins “frequently wets herself”, and how she went to the doctor and discovered that she has a “urethra issue that affects her stream.” Literally, if I hear her say the word urethra one more time…

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        One of the groups I support is made up of late 20-something guys. I once heard them in a lengthy conversation about who would win if a Great White Shark and a Gorilla got in a fight. (I’m not lying)

        1. Snark*

          Oh, men are so gloriously dumb sometimes. Bless us, every one.

          Also it would totally be the shark. Seriously.

            2. Jadelyn*

              idk, man, if the shark can thrash around enough to get its teeth into the gorilla, I’d give pretty good odds to the shark even on land.

            3. Synonymous*

              Dear Netflix, Please make Sharknado: Jungle Edition to determine who would win this battle. I will also accept MegaShark versus King Kong. Amen.

          3. SQL Coder Cat*

            Well, are we on land, or in the water? It makes a difference…

            I’m not a guy, but I’m in IT. The ability to hold my own in these types of conversations are essential.

        2. Snargulfuss*

          I know the consensus is for the shark, but my vote is for the gorilla. Those silverbacks are fierce!

          Also, not a work conversation, but while traveling in Turkey some friends started a similar conversation about the Hagia Sophia vs the Blue Mosque. We decided the Hagia Sophia has strength but the Blue Mosque has agility. Weird conversation, which is probably why I remember it.

    17. Pwyll*

      The strangest had to have been a disembodied voice at the far end of the office saying gibberish words for about 2 weeks. It was starting to drive everyone insane, and no one could figure out where it was coming from. Then we had a visitor come through and ask why someone was saying random words in a foreign language (it was an African language I had never heard of before, and our office was not in an area where we had a lot of immigrants from that area). Finally we discovered that our building used to be all one big office, and that someone in the office upstairs thought this random button on the wall was a light switch, when in fact is was the relic of an intercom system that wasn’t fully disabled, and she had been practicing a language for her planned safari and inadvertently broadcasting it to the building.

    18. Michelle*

      Two child-free by choice coworkers discussing baby names for other people. As in, “Lucinda should name her baby Mabel, because that’s a neat, older name or August if she’s born this month. Oh, and if Jane gets pregnant, she should totally name her child Jackson for a boy or Bella for a girl”. These ladies go on at length anytime that children or pregnancy is mentioned that they do not under any circumstances want children , but they think they should suggest name to coworkers who have not asked for their input.

    19. Elizabeth West*

      At Exjob, people in my row would talk about Duck Dynasty all the time. *Herk* That or football. Or their children’s sports. I had my headphones on a lot.

      One time, I went down to the other building to talk to someone in IT, on the ground floor (something like being in the basement). When I started speaking to the person I had gone to see, all these man heads poked out of the row of cubes like, “OMG, a girl!” There was so much Star Wars stuff everywhere I thought I had walked into a convention. It was BEAUTIFUL. When I saw it, I thought damn, I’m sitting with the wrong group.

      1. Liane*

        I want to work someplace where everyone is discussing Star Wars. Are there any other fields besides IT and Disney where that is possible?
        Oh, wait, I already do that, at Game Co’s blog/

        1. Jessica*

          No you don’t. There’s all kinds of Star Wars nomenclature floating around my company and I am SO sick of it. I’ve been seeing server nodes and organizational groups named after Star Wars for 20 flippin’ years! Can we please pick a different sci-fi universe already?! Why not name something after “2001: A Space Odyssey” or Dragonriders of Pern or literally anything else? Star Wars is so played out. So, so played.

          And no Tolkien either!!! One of the tools I use, created by the damn product teams named after Star Wars characters, is f-ing named Gandalf. ENOUGH. Tolkien, Star Wars, and Harry Potter are now off limits until 2030. There’s a ton of great sci-fi and fantasy to choose from. Put that copy of Game of Thrones down.

          1. SQL Coder Cat*

            We recently developed a policy for assigning server names. Because we had servers named Khan, KHAN, and KHAAAAN.

          2. Drew*

            No one lets me name anything because it will be all Babylon 5, all the time, except for the five computers named Spike, Faye., Jet, Ed, and Ein.

            Tangent: I was playing “Geek Out” with some other geeks and the question “Name four Star Trek characters” came up. We ended up deciding it was a forfeit after the bids went “four, ten, twenty-five, one hundred” – and the person who bid 100 probably could do it, but was likely to be outbid. That was a fun game.

    21. Chicago Recruiter*

      Conversation that escalated into a heated argument about whether or not hot dogs are sandwiches.

      1. Mrs. Boo*

        Just last week, I heard one lady say to another, “You really should check your vagina every week.” I almost fell out of my chair.

    22. kittymommy*

      This sounds like a conversation I would have. In fact I think in probably involved in some of the weirdest conversations at my work (I may have even started them).

    23. kittymommy*

      Personally, I probably would have mentioned it, especially after she referenced it, but I do think it’s ridiculous to base a decision on it. If she’s that particular (I’m trying to be kind) I think you got lucky not getting the job.

    24. Sole*

      Working at a domestic violence agency, there’s a ton of opportunity for training seminars/workshops for issues we see. My non-work friends were seriously weirded out when I answered a simple ‘So what’s new with you?’ with a hearty, ‘I’m excited for the strangulation conference next week!’…(facepalm). Everyone at work was saying the same thing, it didn’t even register as a bit off.

      I definitely pass everything through a ‘is this a normal topic of conversation?’ filter before I talk about work now.

    25. Menacia*

      Two women arguing over who had the worse childhood…they are both one-uppers but this went too far (can’t go into details).

    26. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      I once walked in on a group conversation, complete with visual aids, about the bone bear’s have in their penis. Like, a guy waving around a bone “Do you know what this is??? It’s a bear’s penis! Hahaha!” There was a lot of talk about different sizes, how to get them out, regret at having left a penis bone behind…

    27. Clever Name*

      I once participated in a conversation with the other biologists in my office about which was more dangerous to encounter in the wild: bears or cougars. This was only a slightly hypothetical conversation, as I live in Colorado.

    28. Chaordic One*

      I know I’ve told this story once before, but it still sticks in my mind and won’t go away. I once had to share office space with the most annoying, obnoxious, loud and extraverted woman I ever met. She had a marketing/sales job and was one of those people who felt that she had to form a personal relationship with everyone else she worked with and that meant sharing just about every detail of her life with everyone she knew.

      Although we had cubicles, she had injured her back by falling off of a mountainside while attempting a hike, and for this reason she used a standing desk. When she was on the phone it was like she was hollering into it and she stood above the cubicle and everyone in the office could hear everything she said.

      The worst story she told a prospective client was about her complicated 24-hour delivery with detailed descriptions of contractions, blood, multiple epidurals, and I don’t know what all. This was followed by her telling the person on the phone that her baby was incredibly ugly and had hair on his back and she didn’t want to touch it.

      Her story ended with her saying, “The last thing I remember was that my uterus fell out and the doctor said, ‘Oh, sh*t!’ Then I passed out.”

      I do wonder to this day if she made the sale.

      1. This Daydreamer*

        I, just, wow. Pretty sure I would have NOPED right out of ever dealing with her again if I had been that potential client.

    29. New Bee*

      Yesterday my coworker announced her husband’s vasectomy, out of nowhere. Not really a conversation, because I just stared blankly, but then she offered to show a picture of his hospital room, complete with surgical tools.

    30. Anxa*

      That’s so funny. German and Dutch are pretty similar languages, and I thought “cookie” was a word taken from the Dutch word koekj. Thank you middle-school social studies fair for that useless piece of knowledge.

  9. babblemouth*

    How do you keep going when the project you’re on hits a snag and you’re the eprson driving it?
    I recently have been given the chance to take the lead on a Really Cool Project. it’s something that hasn’t been done before, and there isn’t really a template for it. I’m reporting directly to the leadership for this.
    My problem is that I’m used to be able to talk thinks over with a project lead or my manager when something I work onhits a snag. The leadership team here is made of very busy people that are doing me a big favour by putting me in charge. I have monthly check-ins to explain where I’m at, but I’m not really able to use them as sounding boards.
    This has led me into small spirals of omg-I-have-no-idea-what-I’m-doing. How do you motivate yourself to get out of these when talking it over with someone else isn’t an option?

    1. Jesca*

      Sometimes, talking it over with someone is the only option. I would evaluate the “snag” and figure out a couple different courses of action to solve it. Then, if you can’t get a sounding board at work, google and see if anyone *Out There* has been in similar situations. But in all honesty, no one should ever be given a project without at least a team or a member of management to guide them through a snag. It is very counter-productive as no one can see everything!

    2. LabTech*

      I might not be the best person to give advice on how to stay motivated, but as far as that omg-I-have-no-idea-what-I’m-doing (which I’m pretty sure is my job title at this point), when no one else is able to be a sounding board, I try to read everything I can possibly find on the topic, and (in my case, being in a lab) I’ll try out a little experimentation to figure out which way works best on a practical level. I’ll also look up relevant internal documentation/training materials in the nooks and crannies of my company’s network, browse well-stocked libraries, academic articles, and official regulatory websites, which have all helped bridge the knowledge gap for me. By virtue of reading up on it and being the head of that particular project, you become the de facto subject matter expert, even if you feel like there’s a lot you still need to figure out.

      Not sure how applicable all of this will be to you. In your line of work the information may come from different sources – if such sources exist at all. Finding them will be the hard part.

    3. periwinkle*

      Just because it hasn’t been done before in that form or combination doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done before! This is the time when you work your network, both internal and external. Break the project down into chunks (concepts, tasks, deliverables, whatever makes sense). Maybe the company hasn’t done ABC before but your buddy Wakeen in Finance has done something similar to a tricky part of the C component – or maybe he knows someone else who has. Maybe Jane hasn’t worked on any of this but she’s a great critical thinker.

      I’ve developed a sounding board network in the organization. None of them do what I do but they’re smart, they can see those similarities to stuff they do know, offer a different perspective on the situation, and can often connect me to someone in their own network who might know someone who knows someone. And hey, just describing the problem out loud in simpler, non-jargon words can get my brain in a different gear for problem solving.

    5. Sibley*

      This is probably odd, but I talk out loud to my cats. There’s times I just need to work things out in my head, so even if I have a person I’m talking AT them, not TO them. But the rules-in-my-head don’t let me talk to thin air. So cue the cats.

      The cats generally just ignore me.

      1. periwinkle*

        I do this all the time. When I was earning my MS online, I discovered that the best way to learn was to pretend to lecture on the topic using my own words and analogies. The cats were a great audience. Well, they didn’t get up and leave. Well, not too often.

      2. babblemouth*

        You mean my cats have a use beyond the primary source of dust in my house?
        Genius, I’ll try it! Thanks!

      3. Ramona Flowers*

        It’s like rubber duck debugging. (Google if you don’t know what this is. It’s safe for work I hasten to add.)

    6. Hazelthyme*

      Ooh, babblemouth, have I been there! It’s actually a pretty regular occurrence in
      line of work, so I’m used to it by now, but it’s still stressful, and the first time it happened, I was a complete wreck. My usual approach is something like this:
      1. Get over the idea that you don’t know what you’re doing … by embracing it. You DON’T know what you’re doing, because no one does, because this is a brand new project. That’s expected. Someone who’d just done 5 other projects might know a little more than you, but probably not much — the main thing they’d have an edge in is how to regroup and come up with a Plan B (and C, and D, and E, and … ) when Plan A doesn’t work. I’m convinced after several years that a big part of successful project execution is just being extremely resilient and stubborn.
      2. If there’s something fairly low-risk (=doesn’t cost a lot of time or money, and has little no chance of making your company/boss look bad or breaking something expensive) you can try, go for it! Even if it doesn’t work, you may learn something or come up with a new idea/approach in the process. My favorite saying in this situation is “Well, we’ve found one more thing that won’t work!”
      3. Phone (or email, or walk over and visit) a friend. If you know someone who might be able to shed light on the problem you’re facing, talk to them! It might be a colleague at your current company, someone you’ve worked with in the past, or a friend or acquaintance from your non-work life who might have insights to share. Again, they may not get you all of the way there but they might help you get started, or ask a question you hadn’t thought of.
      4. Go online. You can try just Googling the issue but if there’s a professional journal or association for your field, or other specialized resources, check out their websites and see what you can find. If no one else has ever attempted a project like yours, think about other projects that might be similar, e.g., if you can’t find anyone else working on heat-resistant teapot spout glaze, look at coffee pots and soup tureens.
      5. Set it aside for a few hours or overnight, and see if anything new comes to you when you pick it up again. You’ve got to use this one with caution (letting it sit overnight != abandoning it for weeks or months) but it really can help.
      6. Document, document, document. Write down everything you’ve tried and what happened/how and where it broke down. I personally find that while I do most of my documentation on my computer, I sometimes have better luck working through the specifics of a given problem and what I need to do to solve it on an old-school yellow legal pad. YMMV.
      7. If you’ve tried all of the above and are still stuck, call or email one of your managers and see if they can point you in the right direction. You’re not asking them to solve the problem, but to provide guidance or connect you with additional resources you might not have found on your own. If they’re as busy and high-level as you say, keep it short and to the point, but let them know what you’ve already tried so they’ll know you’re not just running to them at the first sign of trouble. For example, “Hi VIP, I wonder if you could provide some guidance on the teapot spout project. I can’t seem to get the glaze to stop melting at boiling temps. I’ve tried tempering it with floo powder, and I’ve reached out to Fergus at GlazyDayz and checked the Teapot Guild archives, but I’m still coming up blank. Can you think of something else I’m missing, or someone else who might be able to help?”
      8. Remember, this is your first project, not your last. Your managers know you’re new at this, and they probably don’t expect you to nail it perfectly without a single hiccup on your first try. Know your scope (what you are and aren’t supposed to accomplish), make every effort to meet your deadlines and stay within budget (and let the powers that be know promptly if it looks like you won’t be able to), and trust that everything you try on this project, even if it doesn’t work, will leave you with more skills and knowledge for the next one.

    7. Emilitron*

      I can really relate to this – getting put in charge of things I’m very uncertain about seems to be part of my reward for previous competence. I’m excited about it in theory, but kind of panicky in practice. The one thing I’ve got going for me is that I inherited this project from my coworker when he became my manager; i.e. my manager knows what’s going on. So it’s been several months of transition in which I get slowly more functional and he gets slowly too busy to respond to my emails.
      When I hit a snag and am feeling overwhelmed, I’ve had good luck with writing a fake email to this manager, explaining exactly what the problem is and what our options are for fixing it. By the time I’ve weeded out the info that’s not relevant, and focused on exactly what the impact/outcomes are, and written down a few options (and crossed a few out because they stop making sense as I try to explain them), I can pretty much answer the question. And then I start feeling like I know what I’m doing again.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Weird things I have done to dig myself out:

      1) In your mind’s eye go back to the point where the project felt under control. Get a good clear picture of this in your head. Very slowly inch forward to current time. “Okay at stage 3, everything was good. Then we went to stage 3.5, I started to feel uncomfortable. Okay, good. Why did I start to feel uncomfortable what was going on at stage 3.5? Not sure, but it got worse at stage 4.” Okay go waaay back to stage 3 and work forward again. Keep reviewing the particulars question everything.

      2) I am not sure if you lead a project which has people working on it. If yes, ask your people. Half the time the people who are actually doing the work have already figured out a solution. Familiarity or immersion will do this to a person, they are seemingly able to pull rabbits out of hats. No rabbits in reality, they just know their jobs very well.

      2) Look at your path of travel in your process. I would set the tasks up to do A, then B and then C to finish it.
      This is a straight path.

      But sometimes I would be missing components for A. Whoops, problem. Cannot move forward. Sometimes you can prep A and even move on to prep B and C. Sometimes you can go ahead and do A, B and C and figure out that you actually don’t need that component or you can use something from somewhere else. Sometimes you can do one example and test the process and test the end result.
      These are work-around paths.

      Sometimes nothing works so you go to the boss only to find out, “Right. You cannot begin the task because you do not have necessary thing for part A. You have to wait.”
      [Gee, Boss, you could have told me that a week ago.] Give your dilemma the reasonability test- is it reasonable to be expecting to proceed in spite of Hurdle.

      3) Really watch your self-talk. Tell yourself, “there are solutions here and I am going to find them.” Drop off the negative thoughts as often as possible. This really helps.

    10. only acting normal*

      Talk to a peer you trust as a sounding board. I’ve been both the sound and the board in this scenario – sometimes just articulating the question out loud helps you organise your thoughts, sometimes they can give you actual ideas or guidance.

      If I’m in a mega-death-spiral-of-doom I stop and make a to do list, or go update the project plan with progress so far, or do that little annoying thing I’ve been putting off (usually a phone call for me), or do some boring but useful admin (book that meeting room and double check the distribution list for the meeting). Then when I’m calm again I can carry on with a clearer head.

    11. KAG*

      When I was in that situation, I would write it out by hand (basically journaling for nerds). First: clearly define what isn’t working? Then, for each issue: What have I already tried? Why didn’t that work, and what did I learn from that? By the time I got through that point, I usually had a list of specific new things to try to solve that issue.

      And it was important for me to do it away from the computer; away from the environment, where a different part of my brain would kick in (for me, usually my patio with a notebook and a glass of wine).

      And thank you for reminding of that, because I’m in a similar situation again and need to take my own advice!

  10. Astrid*

    Some comments in that controversial letter (manager who froze out employee) regarding attitudes to education were quite disheartening.

    While I definitely don’t think having more advanced degrees is sufficient proof of intelligence or ability, there’s an almost-hostile attitude here that seems to over-compensate in the opposite direction.

    No, not everyone needs an advanced degree (or a degree at all) to be successful in their field, but that doesn’t mean all such achievements are worthless. Yes diploma mills exist (and even with legit institutions, some postgrad certifications are pretty useless), but it’s so dismissive and condescending to group everyone into that category.

    In many cases, they /are/ the results or hard work and ability, sometimes they’re done with scholarships, or part-time while the person in question is working as a means of moving up the ladder.

    There’s an overwhelming feeling here hat in order not to offend people who work in areas such as manual labour (and I emphasise I agree, I /know/ someone qualified as an electrician is likely to earn more than someone with a PhD, and cleaners etc. are indispensable in keeping things running), people are all too willing to scoff and put down people who dare to pursue further education.

    That, surely, isn’t right either?

    1. Jesca*

      I think sometimes people take things too personally. Having a degree is more for the personal benefit of the person receiving the degree and therefore is held to a higher regard by the said person than it is generally by outsiders. As in, yes you worked really hard to get your degree and what a great achievement that was! But at the same time, most people will only look at that as being a part of the broader you. Writing in and saying (bragging) about your degree would be like someone else coming on here and bragging that one time they saved a company a half mil during a project. It is a great personal achievement but it says nothing about who you are and what you can contribute in the long run. That is the point people are making. A lot of people believe that because they got a higher degree, that makes them better than. They don’t understand that it is just one of many personal achievements that add up to make you a good employee. They aren’t bad, by all means. But they don’t make the person special either. I think that is the *harsh* point people are trying to make.

    2. Christy*

      I mean, I’m a person with a master degree and I found the degree pretty worthless. I think in general those in academia overvalue degrees and more education and this blog/commentariat pushing back against that isn’t a problem.

      And I don’t think it’s scoffing at the people choosing to get degrees, I think at most it’s scoffing at people who overvalue degrees.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        Well put. I am getting a master’s degree in my field. Fortunately I work at a university so it is paid for as part of my benefits! I don’t find the program to be that useful or challenging, but it’s basically a requirement to move up in my functional area. While I’m working here, I definitely want to take advantage of the opportunity.

        When I graduate, I’ll end up putting “Lemon Zinger, M.Ed” in my email signatures– not because I am proud of it or trying to brag, but because it’ll help the way people perceive me. EVERYONE at my institution lists their advanced degrees. I’m not sure how I feel about it.

      3. Observer*

        And I don’t think it’s scoffing at the people choosing to get degrees, I think at most it’s scoffing at people who overvalue degrees.
        ==========================================================================

        Very much this. Especially in the context of that letter.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. People who overvalue anything are going to probably get called on it here on this forum. Having a degree is a part of life not the sum total of life, just like many other things are a part of life but not the whole of life.

        I will say, that an important thing is valued here. And that is getting a job and keeping that job. Alison’s advice supports people with that process and the commenters do the same in turn. If OP in that letter wants to keep a job she is going to need to let go of some of that high value she places on a degree. Bragging or feelings of superiority are not going to fly well in most workplaces.

      5. Episkey*

        Me too, however, with the caveat that the field that I got my masters in requires it for licensure, so if I had stayed in my field, it would have been necessary. I just didn’t because I realized I didn’t like it in grad school. I don’t regret getting it exactly, but sometimes I do feel it was a waste of time & money and I should have pursued a different area.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I didn’t read those comments with the same hostility that you did. I worked hard for my graduate degree, as did many of my friends and family and colleagues. Those achievements mean something, for sure. But they don’t mean everything. I felt like the gist of the comments were trying to get that particular OP to recognize that education alone does not trump years upon years of experience, nor give someone with an advanced degree the right to dismiss someone else’s “practical education.”

    4. fposte*

      I don’t think there’s an overwhelming feeling here, if by “here” you mean AAM. I think there were a few commenters who responded to somebody prejudiced in one direction with a heightened reaction in the other. Lots of us are in higher education and/or have graduate degrees–but that’s also why we have some perspective on what that doesn’t confer as well as what that does.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yes, I think people have unique experiences that influence their opinions on the topic. Either someone without a degree has been mocked/humiliated or someone with a degree has been accused of gloating. When I didn’t have a degree, I was constantly mocked by co-workers at an old job. When I started to get my degree online, my friends with advanced degrees gloated that my degree didn’t mean anything because it was online. That stuff hurts, but I know that it comes down to individuals dealing with their own insecurities. If it wasn’t a degree, it would be about what city I lived in, or what outfit I was wearing. Haters gonna hate.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yes, this. A small number of people made comments that the thread was “anti-intellectual,” but I don’t think that’s the proper tone of the comments. I think it was a reaction specifically to the OP’s comments, which were offensive on their face but also because OP suggested that people who do not pursue advanced degrees are not hardworking, smart, or dedicated.

        So I don’t think the theme was “formal education is useless!” I think the theme was, “Formal education—including higher higher ed—is not the sole measure of a person’s intelligence, dedication, or capacity to learn/advance.”

    5. paul*

      I didn’t read that as scoffing at higher education; I read that as scoffing at someone that thought their MBA outweighed real world experience and tangible results that that coworker was getting.

    6. FD*

      I think what you’re seeing is a reaction, mostly.

      In every class and group of people, obviously, there are people who do their best, people who do enough, and people who do a poor job.

      It’s not easy to get a PhD. It’s not easy to be a welder, or to start your own business either. Generally, our specialist society needs many people doing many types of jobs.

      The problem, however, is that in the past, going to university was, bluntly, a status symbol. Poor and middle class people went to vocational school or to apprenticeships. University was primarily for the wealthy.

      As more specialist fields emerged, we started to need more people to go through higher education. However, university education became seen as the way to get into a well paying job—even though that wasn’t entirely true in all cases. Over time, a lot of Americans have started to look down on anyone who didn’t have at least a bachelor’s degree, not least because it’s often a class marker. While a large share of middle class people go through a four year college, many fewer lower-class people go through it.

      The flip side is that the generation working now often got burdened with an excessive amount of student debt (partly because the high demand means that prices can be ridiculously high). This seems to be leading to a knee-jerk backlash against the entire system. After all, if you were told “You have to go to college to get a well paying job,” only to come out with tens of thousands of dollars in debt while people who went through welding programs are making twice or three times what you can, it sort of sours you a bit on it. In addition, seeing people who look down their noses at anyone with less of an education than they have tends to annoy people as well.

      2. The IT Manager*

        I agree. It is a reaction to what has changed in US higher education in the last 50 years or so.

        A college degree used to be less common now it’s practically a requirement for all white collar jobs. And not because the degree taught any particular skills because those jobs that require a degree, any degree, are just using it to weed out people. The people being weeded out are not just the ones that weren’t smart enough for college (if you were using a degree to measure intellectual/academic ability). but ones who may have aptitude but couldn’t afford college so its a class thing. Also I’m not in academia, but it also seems like college is getting less academically rigorous as more and more middle-class 18 year old go because it’s the thing you do after high school to get a good job.

        With the growth in online masters degree programs, masters degrees are being watered down too. I’ll be honest, my masters degree was weak and I did not pick it because I thought it would be easy. It didn’t teach me anything I didn’t already know or couldn’t have taught myself by reading up on it. But it did cost me money and require I put in the hours to do the work. I was lucky to have a job that allowed me to do school work during work hours and put up with me occasionally being so exhausted I practically fell asleep at my desk. There’s a lot of privilege there.

        I’m not saying you didn’t personally work hard, but there’s a lot more people with bachelor’s and master’s degrees that graduated through easy, watered-down programs and they lower the value of a generic degree.

        And let’s the honest, that LW’s attitude that “we were smart and got graduate degrees that make us better than” the rock star with experience was terrible and gives people who flaunt their degrees a bad name. That attitude deserves to be shut down hard.

        1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

          I agree with you about the watered-down effect, and also feel like some of this could be pretty dependent on industry as well though. It may not be across the board, but at least in the STEM fields I’ve been in, people definitely look at not only the degree(s) you have but where you got them. Per the point everyone seemed to be trying to make, neither of those things says anything definitive about someone as a person or how intelligent, capable, or competent they are. But they do say what kind of training you’ve had. They indicate the kind of information you’ve been exposed to and learned, they indicate the types and amount of equipment, procedures, processes and technical experience you should have, they indicate the training you have in your field. In many fields it remains a reality that, at least in hiring for a highly technical position, someone with an advanced degree from an online or small and never heard of program is likely to be judged poorly in comparison to someone with an advanced degree from a well known and rigorous program where they worked under well known and well respected faculty. Is this something that is likely to or even can change? I don’t know. Because while someone that wants to can train to be a welder pretty easily (the welders make bank at my company, by the way) there’s not much chance of someone independently learning and training in transmission electron microscopy…

    7. neverjaunty*

      I can’t say I’ve ever noticed that as an overall sentiment here (and yes, I do have a professional degree). That letter really was an outlier because the LW seemed to think having an MBA makes one Very Special, and people were reacting to that.

      1. Sled Dog Mama*

        This was the sense I got from the comments. That the LW somehow thought her possession of an advanced degree and employee’s lack of one somehow made her a better person than employee. LW actually said:

        I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.

        (emphasis mine) implying that employee’s lack of a masters meant that she wasn’t smart or dedicated.

        1. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

          That’s exactly how I read that piece of the exchange. What should be the indicator of whether I am smart, dedicated, or qualified for a position? The B.S. in education that I earned in the 90s? My professional certification in administrative support and organizational management (which is about to lapse because I’m no longer than admin)? The experience I have in a specialized industry because I’ve paid attention and learned from the different departments I’ve worked in for the seventeen years I’ve been with my current organization?

      2. Jessica*

        It was especially rich to hear “My MBA makes me special” from someone whose management practices were so abysmally, absurdly bad that they fired her and her entire team. Thank God she went to business school, instead of becoming a doctor or an engineer. And what the hell business school was this, anyway, Dilbert University? Or was it a good school and they’re wondering right now if they can retroactively revoke her credentials for obviously not having heard a word?

    8. Jake*

      I’ve got a Bachelor’s, but I work with 95% blue collar folks, just to give some background.

      I agree with your assessment. Sometimes it does feel like in an effort to avoid the whole, “educated people are better than everybody else” line of logic that the pendulum shifts too far in the other direction to the point where people forget that education is actually beneficial in many situations.

      1. Jake*

        I’d like to make a slight clarification. I agree that there can be some of that sentiment, but I wouldn’t call it overwhelming.

    9. Mimmy*

      and even with legit institutions, some postgrad certifications are pretty useless

      *sheepishly raises hand* I can attest to this. It’s only been a little over a year, so hopefully I’m wrong.

    10. Alastair*

      I don’t get an anti intellectual or education vibe from here. I mean, it was hard for me to hear that my GPA and litany of accomplishments in college no longer matter … but that’s the truth.

      By keeping that stuff on my resume 7 years later I looked out of touch.

      1. only acting normal*

        This exactly.
        It was hard for me to hear that no-one cared about by straight A’s record or my Masters when I was 5 years into a job using that degree. But I accepted they were right – I work with some people I *really* respect who I was surprised to find had pretty poor degrees from low-ranking universities, their work record extending into their 30s and beyond is worth far more than what they did for 3 years around the age of 20.
        Didn’t stop me doing a part time Open University BA over the last 10 years and counting! I still get a little ego boost from getting an A, but I accept that is all for my own pleasure, it’s not likely to advance my career in any way. And it’s certainly not for some kind of degree top trumps.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        The value of the education lessens over time. Ten years out, employers what to know what have you done with your degree and your career for the last ten years. They can stop caring about a degree from ten years ago.

    11. Triangle Pose*

      Yeah, I see what you’re seeing here in the commentariat as well. Just take it with a grain of salt like you would anything else. I don’t think anyone here is actually scoffing or putting people down for pursuing further education though.

      Sure, there are bright and smart and dedicated folks who don’t have a degree or an advanced degree. I don’t think any reasonable person with those degrees would disagree with that statement. And sure, a lot of good jobs can be had without an advanced degree or a degree at all. But that is the exception, not the rule. And people conflate those things.

      Where I am now, this advance degree absolutely matters, the name prestige of the school you got it from absolutely matters. These things don’t take the place of sound judgment or get-it-done-ness qualities, but they are definitely the minimum hurdle for getting to this level, this salary and this role. But this isn’t for everyone and not everyone is looking to be at this level in a F50 company, and I get that.

      Just say to yourself “this doesn’t necessarily apply to me or everyone.”

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I loooooved being in grad school, and the degree has definitely served as a credential for me in getting opportunities, so on that level, sure it matters. But did the stuff I learned in my master’s program outweigh what I would have learned being in the work force for those two years? Unclear.

        1. Triangle Pose*

          Agree! I just think that’s a different conversation. I actually think the things I LEARNED in or out of class during school were totally not valuable compared to learning on the job. Problem is, the system is set up so that I CANNOT get the job without the shiny degree. I think we can talk about how the system shouldn’t be that way. But I can’t change the hiring systems and I think we are generally all on here for practical advice. I think sometimes the commentariant gets a bit stuck on how things should be when it comes to “get the degree-get the job” trajectory. I hear all the time on here from Alison and other hiring managers how they value experience over degrees and how prestgious schools don’t take the place of valuable experience. However, in my experience, the pretigious degree is the thing you need to hand in hand to get that experience. And I don’t hear that here (and that’s fine, YMMV).

          1. Lily Rowan*

            Yeah, that’s interesting, but I imagine it’s a fairly small subset of jobs that require certain degrees from certain schools up front (McKinsey, Specter Pearson or whatever the firm on Suits is called currently…).

            1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

              I think there are whole industries where you have to have the degree, and the better the school you got it from the better the job you’ll get. Sure, down the road the experience you have will far outweigh the degree. But the degree (and perceived quality of said degree) are still what got you the job that got you the experience that got you to the point where the degree no longer matters.

              And to your first point, I wonder how having the advanced degree changes how/what you learn in the work force. I don’t know the answer to this. I’m not sure how much you can know the answer to this, you know? I have my degrees and the concrete information I learned and the abstract critical thinking/problem solving skills learned from them. It stands to reason that what I’ve learned/experienced in the work force is colored by all of that because it’s all a part of who I am. It’s the basis for what I know and how I think. It’s really hard to determine what the effects have been.

    12. ArtK*

      My response to that issue wasn’t hostility to the degree, but to someone using their degrees to claim that they were somehow better than someone with a “lesser” degree. I certainly wouldn’t scoff at someone pursuing a higher degree. I’d be horribly hypocritical if I did, since I’m working on a master’s 35 years after my BS. But my new degree is simply for me. Mostly for my own satisfaction, but a little bit as a signal for a career change.

      In my (long) career, I’ve found no correlation between academic achievement and success in the workplace. One of the best managers I ever had, only had a HS diploma. He was both technically and managerially competent. I’ve worked with people with advanced degrees who could barely tie their own shoes (in a work context.)

      1. Jessica*

        I have personally run into at least one person who, having only finished HS and then dropped out of community college after a semester or so, conspicuously lacked the ability to not only discern credible information or sources, but lacked the ability to understand why someone is wrong or right based on the credibility of that information. They had a tendency to believe whatever they read on the Internet, *and* you couldn’t convince them it was wrong because they simply didn’t understand that the credibility of sources matters. And say what you will about the value of higher education, those things are taught in college and they are vital to an intellectual understanding of the world.

        You don’t *have* to go to college to learn that, but boy, when you run into someone who hasn’t absorbed that skill, it is plainly obvious. There are an awful lot of people who’ve spent the last 17 years believing that facts are flexible and that they can’t really be wrong, and they are terrifyingly ignorant AND incapable of even understanding why.

        1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

          Speaking of terrifyingly ignorant and incapable of even understanding why… We once hired a new employee where one of their main job functions was to enter stock into the inventory system. She literally just had to take information off of lists and enter if items were added to or removed from inventory. On MULTIPLE occasions, I had to explain to her that if she entered a number and it caused the stock quantity to go negative, something was wrong and she needed to go do a manual count. She absolutely, positively, for-the-life-of-me COULD NOT UNDERSTAND why the inventory couldn’t go negative. No matter how many times or ways I explained it (I even tried to show her with the physical items) she could not grasp why there couldn’t be a less than zero quantity of something.

          She doesn’t work here anymore. Obviously.

        2. Observer*

          The problem is that they often actually do NOT teach this in college and university. Have you ever noticed how many conspiracy theorists are college educated? You know, the people who are certain that the pharmaceutical industry is hiding the cure for cancer; Big Pharma and ALL of the universities / colleges in the world AND all of the governments in the world AND the UN are have all been conspiring for the last 100 years to foist autism causing vaccinations on all of us; the CIA murdered JFK etc.

          These are all things that are based on the most ridiculous premises, yet they are held by a very large percentage of people with college degrees.

    14. Amelia*

      Degrees, advanced or otherwise, are a privilege. Yes, they often require hard work and intelligence to attain, but they are out of reach for a significant number of people, so using them as a benchmark for success, intelligence, or ambition is flawed. The fact is, higher education is frequently used as a cudgel against the underprivileged; when they have access to it, they face more hurdles, and when they do not have access to it, they are cut off from opportunities. Scoffing at people who choose to pursue further education is never–never–going to have the effect that scoffing at people who don’t have higher education has, so there’s really no way we could possibly overcompensate in the opposite direction.

      If the pursuit of higher education loses some of the elitism attached to it, that’s a good thing. Of course degrees are valuable and a marker of effort, but the lack of a degree doesn’t mean a lack of intelligence or ambition. It doesn’t categorize a person as “more than” or “less than” either way. And that’s what the discussion was about.

      2. Anxa*

        I don’t disagree with you here, but often times the experience of working a few years in the field versus getting a degree in the field are compared.

        While education is a privilege, being able to get paid entry level experience without putting in the time, effort, or money also seems to be a huge privilege to me. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but when I hear a story of someone who worked their way from a job without an education, I don’t see an underdog story so much as I wonder how they got that first initial opportunity in the first place.

        1. Observer*

          Why should it be necessary to put in the time,effort or money to get an entry job? Since when is providing honest work for a decent wage a “privilege” that someone needs to PAY for? Why is it a “privilege” that requires putting resources into an endeavor that obviously doesn’t provide the employer any real value?

          If you want to know how people get that first opportunity, it’s generally because they provide value even without that formal education.

          1. Anxa*

            It should not be necessary at all.

            I don’t think anyone should have to pay for the privilege of being paid for their work while still inexperienced. Education is a privilege, even with the burden of student debt or major financial sacrifice (not to mention the time put in). But to be able to find a paying job in a field you’re interested in, or one with transferable skills or opportunities to provide extra value to your employer is something not everyone has the opportunity to do. Someone who works their way into a career without a formal education should be proud, but they still have had opportunities and privileges other have not.

    15. Anonymous Poster*

      It comes down to, there’s a line between getting a degree to do work you want to do or bettering yourself, and smacking your colleagues over the head with your masters diploma frame. Poo-pooing a coworker because she has a lower level degree but does good work and is respected is one thing, and I think that’s what got the knee-jerk reaction.

      I say this as someone with a BS, MS, and MBA. I also refuse to put any initials after my name. I’ve found it’s more fun to pull them out when someone tries to smack me over the head with their education, with a, “Well actually, I graduated summa cum laude and currently hold 3 degrees, two of which are graduate level, so tell me again about how I’m so stupid.” But I’m a ginger, it’s just something that gives me undue glee.

    16. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I think there is a lot of merit in degrees, depending on the field you’re in. I have two bachelor degrees and a masters, but they are … unnecessary … in my field – literally if I didn’t have them it wouldn’t matter. The person who mentored me for the job I’m doing has a high school diploma and never went to college but she’s WAY better at this than I am. Like, there’s no contest (I’m working on it!). But I’m not sorry I got my degrees – I worked hard for them and I had a blast. I just don’t think they’re the be-all and end-all.

      My issue with the updated letter had nothing to do with anyone having or not having a degree, but with the way OP almost looked down her nose at this person for not having one.

    17. Anon Anon*

      Those achievements aren’t worthless, but they also don’t make that person better than someone else who didn’t have the same achievement. And I definitely thought that person who wrote the update yesterday thought that they were better and more worthwhile because of an MBA.

      The longer I work the more I value experience over education. Experience is the best teacher. That doesn’t mean that a good education isn’t valuable or doesn’t demonstrate a level of commitment and diligence worthy of recognition. It just means that someone with a graduate degree isn’t necessarily smarter, a harder worker, or more worthy than someone without that degree.

      And I have a graduate degree. I loved that grad school helped me to think more critically and more creatively. I wouldn’t trade that experience. But, that experience doesn’t automatically make me a better employee than someone without a graduate degree.

    18. Florinda*

      I definitely notice that when post-secondary education comes up on this site, it’s usually followed by hundreds of comments to the tune of “My associate’s degree/bachelor’s degree/master’s degree/other degree is worthless and has never helped me in my career.” While I do notice that these comments rarely then draw the conclusion that post-secondary degrees as a whole are useless (although I’m sure there are comments to that effect), it typically leaves me thinking, “Huh, the commenters on this site are deeply, deeply skeptical about the value of any degree.” I don’t see anything inherently wrong with that, but it definitely causes me to opt out of participating in discussions about post-secondary education beyond stating the most basic facts as they pertain to my field (i.e. that my field does require a specific bachelor’s degree for employment) on occasion. At the same time, I definitely feel that I would never post a question or comment here related to my own educational plans, because I don’t think the feedback I’d get would be valuable.

      1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        I wonder how much of this stems from mostly not knowing what a commenters job is or what industry they are in? I’m an engineer currently working in mechanical design, with previous experience in the biomedical industry and applied and basic research. In my experience, degrees are and are treated with importance. Not in a this-degree-makes-me-better-than-you way, just in a they-are-required-and-judged kind of way. I have often read threads like this and my gut reaction has been disagreement. But upon thinking about it more today than ever before, I’m having this whole “the world is a glorious spectrum!” thing happening. It’d be interesting to hear more detail sometime to commenters beliefs on how their degree(s) have/haven’t been worthless with respect to their current and past work experiences.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, I can add to this. I feel that I have learned more here on AAM than I did in getting my bachelor’s.

          Seeing this (and I never, ever expected to see anything like AAM) has some how even lessened the value of my formal education even more.

          I have to wonder if people who have a degree in a scientific field see more practicality in their degree. By this I mean, their degree in a science field made it more likely they would find a decent paying job. Other degrees the pay off is not that direct? I am just guessing here.

    19. Tomato Frog*

      I think it’s just pushback against the idea that degrees = intelligence, which is patently, blatantly false. I don’t think you’ll ever see pushback here against the possibility that a degree can be a meaningful achievement. But a lot of people think it must be, and… no.

      It’s like when someone equates a long marriage with being in a good marriage. I am impressed as the next person when someone can have a decades-long constructive, loving partnership with their spouse. But I also know you can stay in an abusive, hateful marriage for 50 years. The degree’s just the anniversary — it doesn’t correlate to content at all, and the idea that it does is silly.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I know of a person who said, “My 50th wedding anniversary is coming up. Do I want to celebrate this with Spouse?” Person filed for divorce instead. It had been a very long 50 years.

    20. Ramona Flowers*

      Personally I just think it needs to be challenged when people think the fact they took classes in x means they know more about x than people who actually have professional experience in x.

    21. Annie Mouse*

      My comment wasn’t intended as putting down those with higher education at all (and I hope it didn’t read that way).
      I have a Masters degree and I’m proud of it, I really slogged for it. And one day, I’d love to do a PhD in my current field. But it really hacks me off when people presume that just because they have a higher level of education, it means they are smarter. I’ve done several non degree qualifications that were just as challenging in their own way as any of the uni work I did.

    22. HannahS*

      I see it as being a bit like wealth. Like education, being wealthy confers benefits (no one could argue with that), after a certain point it becomes unnecessary, and the personal sacrifices you make to make more money (or get more schooling) aren’t worth it. Everyone does their own accounting on how much is enough. Being super (and loudly) proud of being wealthy and looking down on people who aren’t is in really poor taste, right? So the same is true of education. A person can and should be proud of their own accomplishments, but using wealth or education level as a measure of someone else’s work ethic or intelligence level shows a misunderstanding of what these things mean.

  11. Pooja*

    Hi guys. I need some help and was going to email AAM, but think I need feedback sooner than later at this point.

    Backstory: I’m a 29 year old woman with a graduate degree and unemployed. I am not unemployed by choice, as I have been unable to find work in the past 1.5 years since graduating (even in retail and service related jobs). I am running into an issue where hiring managers assume that I am unemployed because I had kids or reasons related to a spouse, and while there is nothing wrong with any of those things, I am sick of hiring managers asking if I am not working because of children or express disbelief when I tell them my explanation (which is I can’t get a job in my field and turned down the only offer I received because of the relocation costs I would incur).

    I know it’s not illegal to ask those questions, but it feels invasive and inappropriate. I try to think about the intentions of the person asking, but it still feels really unprofessional to me. Does anyone else have experience with this kind of stuff or can offer insight? Is there something I should be saying or doing differently? I ‘m becoming increasing upset over this, which is in addition to the frustrations that came from job searching with no productive outcome.

    1. Temperance*

      Have you been volunteering at all during this time? I’m wondering if you were able to show what you were doing with the time, it would limit this line of questioning.

      1. Pooja*

        Yes; I volunteered for about a year. I resigned due to a combination of reasons, but one was that interviewers didn’t consider it “real work” and I couldn’t continue spending time doing unpaid entry level admin work if employers thought it was pointless.

        1. LK*

          What’s your field? Are there nonprofits at arms length who need volunteers who do what you want to do, or volunteers who don’t BUT interact directly with people hired to do what you want to do? Just getting that nose in the door perhaps?

        2. fposte*

          There’s a big difference between “pointless” and “not the same as a job,” though. Not saying you have to volunteer, but, as you’ve discovered, negotiating a work gap is an issue. That’s especially true if you haven’t had work following graduation with your degree; a long-term volunteer gig won’t substitute for paid work experience, but it demonstrates the ability to commit to something in a way that tends to put you ahead of people who don’t have anything post-grad.

        3. Natalie*

          Since you aren’t working and aren’t taking care of kids, I’m a little perplexed that volunteering was taking up too much time? It makes me wonder if you were volunteering way to much (like 40 hours a week) or if you are spending too much time job searching. I know the latter probably sounds impossible, but you can spend too much time on your job search, to the point where the returns have diminished so much that it isn’t worth the stress.

          There are lots of different kinds of volunteer positions with different time commitments. I think it would be wise to pursue a different volunteer opportunity. It may have job searching benefits but more importantly, it might have some emotional benefits for you, which sound like they would be really helpful right now.

      2. LK*

        Seconding this. Even doing 1-3 days/week of 4-6 hour shifts.

        My husband and I recently went through a series of life upheavals for various reasons, and something that caused on of the upheavals was that his industry crashed economically this past winter and there was no work from December to May (he works on a contract basis). We also moved cities in in the middle of that time (one of the upheavals, and figured if we wanted to make the move eventually we may as well do it when he won’t be turning down jobs and money at the same time) and I started my new job which was well and good, but as a contractor it takes time to either find a parallel employee-type position or to network enough to get good clients. He ended up hired as an employee, which was for the best and we’re happy now, but his biggest roadblock initially was “your work experience is all in City A and you are applying in City B….. even though you list a local address, are you even here?”……..so he volunteered in his field (it’s a trade so it can be needed by many different nonprofits in varying degrees) with two different organizations once weekly for a month, then BAM suddenly he has a job offer because it looks like he’s actually IN City B and it looks like he hasn’t gotten any rust or dust on his skills in those 6 months. It actually looked like a natural flow on paper – Work until Dec, move in Feb-Mar, volunteer April-May, Job by June.

        May be limited application to you of course, but volunteering in ANY capacity makes it look like you’re filling your time and volunteering in YOUR field and YOUR capacity is a large positive when compared to an empty hole in your resume.

        1. Pooja*

          I appreciate your comment.

          I quit volunteering for a couple of reasons, as mentioned above one was that interviewers didn’t seem to care or find it valuable. Some of the other reasons I quit had to do with the inevitable mental health issues I developed because of constant rejection, unemployment, and financial stress. I do not feel like I can volunteer and do a good job anymore and feel like I need to allocate my resources and energy towards finding paid employment.

          I know that’s not a great response but this is where I’m at right now mentally and emotionally. I resent working for free because I did a lot of that in graduate school and a lot of that after graduate school. I am trying to figure out the best way to handle interviewers who want to pry into my personal life over theoretical kids and family. It seems like my explanation is not satisfactory to them yet none of them offer me employment.

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            Pooja, you mentioned the mental health issues that come up with unemployment. Are you seeing a therapist? If you aren’t, I would suggest you try to. I’ve had two periods of unemployment; the one where I was taking anti-depressants and seeing a therapist was a lot shorter and less demoralizing than the one when I wasn’t. I wish you lots of success!

          2. fposte*

            The way you’re talking about this makes it sound a little bit like box-ticking–like if you check the right multiple choice answer on this question they should just move you forward.

            But that’s not how it works on the hiring manager side. They’re trying to find out if the reason you haven’t worked is related to how your performance for them would be–and how that means you stack up against the competition. There are all kinds of ways to shut down inquiries into your personal life, but they’re not likely to help you get the job, which I’m assuming is the main goal here.

            Certainly, you can brightly say, “Nope, just a really tough job market right now, and I’m excited to find the right spot!” But I also think it might be worth considering (and talking to your therapist, if one is involved) that volunteering may shorten your job hunt and therefore the time of unemployment stress, especially if you can find volunteer work you enjoy or at least don’t hate.

            1. Pooja*

              So a couple of things:

              I saw a therapist and she was actually the one who encouraged me to discontinue volunteering. I felt overwhelmed trying to manage volunteering, job interviews, applications, occasional freelance work, and networking meetings. I was resistant to quit because I knew interviewers would ask but I couldn’t keep on the path I was on because I felt like my interviews were suffering.

              I totally agree with you that I am trying to check a box. I’ve been really frustrated with job searching because a lot of interviewers have given me feedback why I wasn’t offered the role and a lot of times it came down to being overqualified/too old, not the most qualified, or they didn’t want to deal with relocation. I’m tired and burned out processing all the suggestions and advice people have given. No matter what I do it’s always the wrong thing. Now I try to focus on being positive and engaging during interviews and allocate my energy to those interactions. I can’t do anything else anymore, I’m sorry. I wish I had another response or believed an anti depressant would make a difference but my depression is because I can’t get a job.

              1. fposte*

                I’m really sorry, Pooja. That’s a hard place to be in, and I don’t think there are any easy answers. If you are getting interviews, that’s a good sign about your application package–do you have a kind but critical friend you could ask for interview coaching with, with the instruction that you’re looking for ways to make sure this interview is better than other people’s, not just fine?

              2. Amtelope*

                Okay, I’m going to push back a little here. It sounds like you are saying that job seeking plus volunteer work requires too much energy. It also sounds like you are saying that you don’t believe your depression is a medical problem, but simply a response to being unemployed.

                Unfortunately, you are going to need to continue to look for jobs while also doing something like volunteering, trying to step up your freelance work, or pursuing some kind of continuing education in order to be competitive. If you can dig down and find that energy, great. If you can’t, I don’t think that’s an inevitable result of being unemployed — I think that’s a medical problem, and if your current therapist isn’t offering you medication or cognitive/behavioral strategies for addressing it, I’d keep looking for a therapist who can help.

                But deciding that you are too tired to do anything but job search and that there’s nothing you can do about that really isn’t a good option. It will dig you further into the hole you’re in, rather than getting you out.

                1. Pooja*

                  It’s not about energy but time.

                  I wake up at 6am, go exercise, and get ready for the day. In the morning usually between 8am-12pm, I’ll work on applications and cover letters and the afternoon will be a networking/informational meeting or an interview. After that I’ll try to apply to other positions or do freelance work depending on the time. It’s rare that I have no interview and no networking meeting but in that case, I’ll usually work on other applications. I was overwhelmed and unhappy trying to volunteer on top of those things. I don’t need an antidepressant because I don’t want to work for free anymore.

                2. Amtelope*

                  I think that most employers would like to see you doing something with your time out of work other than looking for work, and if you’re spending so much time looking for work that you don’t have time for resume-building activities, that’s ultimately not going to be a great call.

                  I would recommend targeting your applications more precisely — are there really multiple jobs every day that are a good fit for your degree and skills? — and getting some interview coaching, because it sounds like you are spending a lot of time in interviews without results. The reasons you’re mentioning — not enough experience, too much experience, etc. — are things that should be clear from your resume, so if they’re calling you in but then not hiring you, I’d look for ways that your interview skills could be stronger.

                3. Natalie*

                  I have to agree with Amtelope – in most fields/areas, spending 4 hours a day on applications for months at a time would indicate that you are either not targeting your applications effectively, or that you are spending too much time agonizing over each cover letter.

                  It might seem counter-intuitive that spending too much time on each application could be a bad thing. Consider the opportunity cost – what resume building or mental health supporting activity could you be doing if you spent less time on each application. Also, centering your life around your job search is probably having a detrimental effect on your emotions.

              3. Michelle*

                Have any of the interviewers actually said “you are too old?” I’m not a lawyer, but that sounds like discrimination.

                1. fposte*

                  She’s 29. Except for a few states/municipalities, age discrimination only becomes illegal if you’re over 40.

              4. Argh!*

                An anti-depressant might actually help. Your interviewers may be sensing your depression and confusing your depression symptoms with the actual personality you would have in the job. That could be the real reason for the rejections.

              5. Jesca*

                Honestly, I think you need a change. Sometimes we just keep going and going and going in one direction and never seem to get anywhere.

                At this point, is it about not being able to find a job in the field you want or is it about not finding a job at all? Sometimes just getting A Job can make us feel better, help us relax, and then we can find The Great Job.

                Try switching up your focus.

              6. Anxa*

                Pooja, I really think I understand. I work full-time right now with a second job, a long commute, an intense job search (my job is temp), doing a lot of summer travel and it is INFINITELY easier for me to find ‘time’ to volunteer now than when I was unemployed.

                It’s so easy for people who have not been long-term unemployed to understand how a few hours per week can be demanding. Listen to them when they say volunteering matters. It didn’t for me, it doesn’t seem to have mattered yet for you, but I think we are outliers. And clearly something has to chance. So I think you probably should return to volunteering.

                That said, I found it incredibly demoralizing to continue working for free for years without being considered for employment. It was hard for me to because I couldn’t find volunteer opportunities more directly related to my interests or that helped develop skills. Only could find those didn’t do much for my resume. I didn’t even feel like I was doing a community service after a while, because while the hospital was technically non-profit, the higher ups get paid huge salaries.

                I also struggled (struggle?) with low-grade depression. I couldn’t tell if I was depressed because I was unemployed or unemployed because I was depress. I live in the US, though, and the culture here make is incredibly difficult not to have mental health issues related to unemployment. A lot of my symptoms disappeared once I got a good part-time job and my SO started making a living wage. A lot more disappeared once I got a FT job. This isn’t to say it wasn’t a medical issue before that needed to be treated, but 1) access to care without a job is really, really hard and 2) I really do think a lot of my issues were related to being unemployed.

                One thing that I think gets lost is how time and energy consuming being unemployed is if you don’t have a lot of money. I gave up based on commuting costs. I could NOT justify spending even 5 dollars/week on a commute, when it could have taking me weeks to come across 5 dollars. A grocery store run would take 2 hours since I would walk to save gas money. Everytime was cooked from scratch. All convenience items were a luxury. Etc.

                Seems strange that some people who become unemployed in all the right ways can get UI and paid-for degrees, while others can’t even get a commuting allowance to volunteer.

          3. Curmudgeon*

            When I was unemployed I volunteered at something outside my field because I did not want to be seen as available to work for free in my industry. I was also so burnt out in my field I needed something different in my life.

            I do wonder how you are finding enough things to apply for that you can be spending all day every day writing cover letters & applications. If your networking groups aren’t bearing any fruit, drop them.
            Check with your Dept. of Labor to see if they have educational classes on skills and gtraining and applying for jobs.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I think the interviewer is just trying to figure out why you weren’t working. It is common for moms to come back to work after taking care of their children, so I think the interviewers are just opening a conversation and hoping that this is the reason rather than being in prison or being fired from your last 10 jobs.
      The interviewer could be asking this to indicate that they understand working moms and want to talk about all the benefits they offer to them.
      Or the interviewers could just be nosy.

    3. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

      I see a couple other people have mentioned volunteering and I think there are a couple of benefits of volunteering while unemployed. You could find something that is connected to your field and while it doesn’t show experience, in the same way, a job does, it gives you a chance to engage in something that is a direct connection to your professional goals while giving back. Tons of non-profits are looking to skill based volunteers to help expand their efforts. I’ve also been able to provide recommendations for volunteers who’ve been volunteering while unemployed and as long as they’ve done a good job, I’ll give them a great recommendation. I often talk about some things that employers really value such as being reliable, on time, efficient and thoughtful and many times that’s not a focus of employer references.

    4. Saviour Self*

      If you are specifically trying to avoid the question from the interviewers, I would be proactive in addressing the gaps in your resume. Essentially, answer the question before they can ask about it.

      With that being said, you need to have a well crafted answer because 1.5yr gap between graduating and working is significant, especially if you don’t have even retail/service jobs, further education pursuits, volunteering, etc.

      If I were interviewing you, I would ask what you had been doing since graduating college. Nothing more specific than that but I would be looking for a tangible response and more than “I can’t get a job in my field.”

      Sorry if this seems harsh but it would move you lower in my “continue in the interview process” than other candidates that had been doing one of the other things mentioned above during the gap.

    5. Nonprofit pro*

      Have you gotten any sort of feedback from the positions you’ve applied to?
      I feel like people tend to try to fill in the gaps with things they’ve encountered before which is why you would be getting that question. Is there anything you can put into your resume that shows what you’ve been up to for the past 1.5 years?

      1. Pooja*

        Yes, I usually get feedback from interviewers that tend to fall into a few categories: being overqualified/too old, not the most qualified, or preference for a local candidate. When they say not the most qualified, they identify specific things like lack of previous supervisory experience or track record of managing projects. It’s not stuff that can really be remedied by volunteering, nor would carry the same weight, so hence why I try to apply to stuff I’m ‘technically’ overqualified for as well.

        1. Nonprofit pro*

          My eyebrows went way, way up at being told you are “too old.” That’s not appropriate for just about anything.
          I saw you mentioned above that you’ve done some freelance work during this time. I would add the freelance work into your resume and use it to help close the gap a bit. I understand how volunteering may not hold the same weight, but it still seems better than nothing.
          On the bright side, you are getting interviews! Could you reach out to the career services department of your university and see if they can go over some interviewing prep with you? It made a huge difference for me when I went through that and had my mock interview recorded. So many things i didn’t realize I was doing! Once I knew about it, I was able to focus on it.
          Good luck!

    6. Artemesia*

      Unemployed women have one slight advantage over unemployed men i.e. they have some built in excuses other than ‘no one would hire me’. ‘No one would hire me’ is likely to seem like a red flag to a hiring manager, even in a terrible local market. If I were you, I would fudge this and imply that I had had some family responsibilities that kept me from job hunting which are now resolved (maybe you cared for your grandmother?) Anything is better than telling a hiring manager ‘I have been unemployed because no one would hire me.’

      1. Curmudgeon*

        Please don’t do that. This is not a male/female thing and is demeaning to say that women could use this as an excuse but not men. And if “family responsibilities” were an issue for you once, what’s to say they won’t be an issue again?

    7. Argh!*

      You can be up front in your cover letter, saying you have been volunteering while you wait for job that’s a perfect fit to come up – and it did! It says: “I’m very picky about how I spend my time and where I want to work so I’ve been volunteering and working on self-development waiting for THISJOB to become available.” Then you can repeat that in the interview first thing so it won’t be a matter of them asking about it later.

    8. Beth*

      One of the things I have realized from AAM is that it’s the tiniest things that can take you out of the running for a position, and I wonder if you should even chop the part out about turning down an offer due to relocation costs. ESPECIALLY if you are looking for jobs that would require moving. I don’t know what field you are in, but I know that in mine, it’s often assumed that there will be no relocation costs paid. It might make you look naive or picky or something else to employers that you turned down a job due to this. (Was it reasonable of you? Of course, but again, employers don’t have a lot to go back on.)

      Have you considered temporary work? I know when I was very desperate for work I avoided it like the plague, but in the end, it not only helped me get paid work, but it also ended up leading to my current career (and this temp placement was ten years ago). There are all sorts of specialized agencies now for temp work, based on your field.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I agree that if you’re applying for non-local jobs, saying that you turned down another offer due to relocation costs will probably put you out of the running, unless you’re in one of the rare fields where relocation expenses are routinely paid for entry level jobs.

        Could you elaborate on the freelance work you’re doing? Because saying that you’re picking up free-lancing work related to your field, and elaborating a bit on what you’re doing will sound much better than saying that you’re spending most of your available time applying for jobs.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Yes, I agree about the temping!
        In 2009-2011 I was in the same state as Pooja. It was a horrible economy, I had gotten laid off, and I went back to school. I did get some freelance work, but what really saved me was getting a part-time job at my college. The pay was minimum wage, but at least it looked like SOMETHING in my field and the references I got from there were great. I also had 2 contract gigs that lasted 3 months each. Both of these helped to cover the gaps along with the degree, and make a side-step in my career.
        So, try and see if you can either get some more freelance OR consider a part-time or contract gig in your field or as close to it as you can manage. I know it’s tough!

        And I think probably stepping back a bit on the job search (as strange as that sounds). Maybe allocate 3 days a week to job search and 2 days to do other things (freelance or volunteer or part-time job)? I find job searches kind of go in “batches” of applying for a lot of jobs… and then nothing for a week or two.

      3. Pooja*

        I will keep this in mind moving forward about not mentioning the job offer.

        RE temping: I submitted my resume to two local temp agencies and did not hear back. I applied to local service industry jobs and part time office work, but haven’t gotten interviews. I’ll probably revisit that later in the month because maybe people will have left to go back to school.

        1. Beth*

          I don’t know if AAM would agree, but temping could be the exception to “following up.” I don’t think it would hurt to contact them again and ask if they received your resume and/or have any potential assignments.. it depends on the agency and how you submitted your resume, but frankly at this point I don’t think you have much to lose.

          And something I have noticed for service industry jobs is that it’s a lot about timing. I would keep an ear open for new store openings; a lot of times they will have open interviews and they need to hire a LOT of people right away. You may not see anything about it online, at least the hiring part, but I know folks who have gone in person to an open interview setting and been hired immediately.

    9. Student*

      Depending on your field and local area, sometimes you need to eat relocation costs to move up in your career. They’re an investment in yourself. Yes, they can suck and they can stack up quickly, but you can also get creative to keep costs down.

      An inability or unwillingness to move for a job in some specific fields would potentially make you look pretty naive or out-of-touch with professional norms. In my field, it’d raise red flags. I know that’s not the case in a lot of other fields, though. The fact you’re having so much trouble getting local work makes me think you might be in a field like mine, though.

    10. Beth*

      I was looking for something else entirely on AAM and came across her post, “Why are employers turned off when they find out how much time I spend on my job search?” It’s worth a read, and may be helpful to you. It wasn’t your initial question, but I imagine that sort of thing comes up when you are interviewing.

      She also has some good tips in a post entitled “my favorite cover letter tips, and why you should volunteer if you’re unemployed.” (Putting direct links in the comments here will get this “flagged” but you can easily search for the titles!)

  12. Bad Candidate*

    I started a new job just over a month ago and I’m not sure it’s going to work out. If it doesn’t, I know not to include it on my resume, but what do I say about why I left my last job? (Which I left voluntarily for this one)

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think you’d be okay to say that you left the job to pursue an opportunity that ended up not pulling through.

      1. Andy*

        yes to this. I’ve had to say this in the past and it’s been accepted and moved on from quickly.

      2. Lemon Zinger*

        Yup, this wording exactly. I moved to my current location for a job that was NOT the right fit. I was only there for a few months and I don’t list it on my resume. I just say “I moved her for an opportunity that ended up not being the right fit.”

  13. afiendishthingy*

    Most of my department, myself included, have roles where there’s a lot of flexibility in terms of when and where we work. We have to do a certain number of off-site client visits per month (I’ve done five this week, going to do another this afternoon) but we mostly make our own schedules and are usually allowed to work remotely. Right now out of maybe 15 people there are two of us in the office… feels like a ghost town and does not motivate me to do stupid paperwork, even though it’s nice and quiet!

    2. afiendishthingy*

      My other coworker went to work from home, and now it’s me and a very nice but very anxious-talky new coworker trying to input case notes for the first time… it is not her fault my department is terrible at onboarding but she’s not my report and I don’t really feel like training her on our archaic documentation software… :/

      This is just my spot to complain today apparently :D

  14. the gold digger*

    I know this is not something anyone who reads this blog would do, but if your boss’s dad dies and is buried on Thursday and you have a three-day offsite meeting with him starting Monday, then say something about it. Say, “I am so sorry for you loss.”

    Do not say to your other co-worker, “I’m just not going to say anything about boss’s dad.”

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m NOT saying you’re wrong, but if I were the boss, I would prefer that my coworkers not bring it up At All, for fear of bursting into tears when I had to respond. Perhaps that coworker feels the same way, and was afraid of doing the wrong thing. Grief is a tricky thing.

      (And if this was you, I’m sorry for your loss.)

      1. the gold digger*

        No, it wasn’t me. :) Although I did burst into tears after I returned to work after my dad’s funeral and my VP expressed his condolences. His hasty, embarrassed response when I started to cry was, “Oh! Were you and your dad close?”

        If it makes any difference, the co-worker in question is a man. And he told my friend (who works for him) that neither of his other two direct reports had said anything. I think he was kind of shocked.

        Having been through it – although speaking only for myself – I was more hurt by the people who didn’t acknowledge this horrible thing in my life than by the people who said something, as awkward as what they said might have been. Actually, I wasn’t hurt by anyone who said something.

        1. Murphy*

          I’m assuming by your original comment that they knew.

          We just got a thank you email sent by the head of our unit to everyone in it (dozens of people) thanking us for sending flowers upon the death of his mother. I had had no idea that she’d passed.

          1. the gold digger*

            Oh yeah. They knew. He was out the entire previous week. We circulated a card and sent flowers. The other two asked my friend if they should mention something to their boss (who is a very nice, very approachable person) and she said yes, yes they should.

            And then they told her they had decided not to.

            I suppose, in their defense, if you have never had someone close to you die, you can feel very uncomfortable talking about death and can think that talking about it will remind the person of the loss he just suffered. Perhaps it isn’t until you experience it yourself that you realize that you will never ever forget the loss.

            1. OhNo*

              I think you’re right about the discomfort many (most?) people feel around the topic. It’s also hard to know how to act when you’ve never been in that situation before, on either side. Unfortunately, when you’re deep in grief, not having your loss acknowledged can be even worse than being reminded of it.

              It’s a tricky line to walk, especially if it’s someone you don’t know very well. I get why the coworkers didn’t want to say anything for fear of saying the wrong thing, but that’s gotta feel pretty weird on the boss’ end.

        2. EddieSherbert*

          I agree with gold digger. Even if I technically don’t want to talk about it, I’d rather someone acknowledge the situation than brush it off (which is how I’d perceive it if they didn’t say anything when I know they know).

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Although, gold digger says above that they did sign a group card. I’d consider that acknowledgement. Yes, they could have said something personally as well, but I wouldn’t say they had brushed it off.

          2. Inspector Spacetime*

            Same. It’s impossible to find the perfect thing to say, but saying anything is better than saying nothing at all. When my dad died when I was 18, one of my friends just didn’t say anything or mention it at all. I’m pretty sure it was because she just didn’t know what to say, but it was a friendship-ender.

        3. Student*

          This isn’t an intentional slight by the employees. It’s more of a reflection of how they would want someone to handle it if it were them, because they don’t know what the other person wants.

          If you want affirmations during grief, it’s helpful to the rest of us if you just tell us what you need. If not directly, just bringing up the topic in conversation will usually get you what you are fishing for. Some of us would rather hide under a rock than get sympathy from colleagues over the death of a relative, while others want acknowledgement and to talk about it. Neither reaction is wrong, but don’t expect near-strangers to guess at what you need well.

      2. Artemesia*

        I think you say it perhaps at the end of the meeting as in ‘This must be really difficult for you; I am sorry about your Dad’ You just can’t not mention it as it will come across as cold and unfeeling. On the other hand you may not want to start off the meeting mentioning it either.

      3. Observer*

        For most people, as embarrassing as it would be to burst into tears, having people pretend that this HUGE elephant is not in the room is much, much worse.

        Bursting into tears is not the end of the world. Pretending that people are robots with no lives outside of their cubicle or even corner office is FAR worse, imo.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This. A subordinate in my group lost her husband. NO ONE said anything. A workplace of 100 people and no one said a word to her. I learned about this when I approached her and said, “I am so sorry.” We chatted for a moment and she said, “You are the only person who said anything to me.”

          We both stared at each other, silently realizing what a cold and horrible workplace we had.

    2. Ginny W*

      I would not say anything, and I wouldn’t want anyone to say anything to me in that situation. When my dad died, I very much appreciated the people who treated me as normal and just got on with it. The ones who felt the need to comment on what had happened made me feel so much worse.

      People are different, and they behave differently for a multitude of reasons.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Right on. At one place I supervised an employee had been out for three days due to the loss of a family member. I like it when people tell me where things are at. When she returned, she immediately said, “It’s over and I don’t want to talk about it.” So that gave me the opportunity to give a small smile and say, “I am so glad you are back.” She smiled, too. Work went on as usual.

    3. Purple snowdrop*

      There was someone in my old job who got it passed round the office to everyone that she didn’t want anyone to mention her husband’s death when she came back to work.

      I didn’t, but about a year later we ended up having a conversation about it, and I teared up but she didn’t. She seemed really touched by this (and not offended at all).

      For my part I was glad I was able to say something to her about it, even so long afterwards.

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      I hate the one where I’m forced to sign a card when someone’s kid is in the hospital, but I’m told I’m being selfish when I ask if I can get a day off to go to my grandfather’s funeral and that in no way should I expect a card.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Yeah, I would agree that if you know about the death of a coworker’s family member, you should say something– just a quick “I’m sorry about your dad. Let me know if there’s anything I can do to help.”

      I lost a relative very suddenly a few months ago. I only told one person at work right after it happened because I needed coverage while I traveled to the funeral. While I wasn’t close to the relative, the death was very unexpected and tragic. I couldn’t talk about it without crying until after the funeral. I supposed it provided closure for me.

      When I returned to work, a bunch of people asked me “How was your vacation?” and I responded that it wasn’t a vacation– I was at a funeral.

    6. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      This is one of those super hard things. Everyone is different. My mom passed away unexpectedly in June, and everything I read about returning to work talked about how some people won’t say anything and will act like nothing happened. This was mostly attributed to those people not knowing what to say, not being able to relate and so being unsure, not wanting to upset you, etc. I would say that 999 times out of 1000, a person not saying something is not because they are an uncaring jerk or trying to be mean. And as others have mentioned, some people want condolences and some don’t. Personally, at first I felt a bit insulted when someone at work didn’t acknowledge this horrible and life changing thing that had just stopped my world, but I made a point of remembering what I had read about the common reasons people remain quiet about it and that helped me.

  15. Genuinely Curious*

    Managers:

    Do you take your employee(s) out to lunch for their birthday(s)? Or do you do something else…or nothing else?

    What do you think works best?

    1. fposte*

      “Best” depends on the unit and the workplace. My employees get cake, which is shared at a meeting near the actual date if not on it; if they don’t want cake we usually find a substitute.

    2. katamia*

      I’m not a manager, but I can’t imagine ever wanting to go out to lunch with a manager (any manager, no matter how much I liked them as a person and as a boss) for my birthday.

      1. NPG*

        Agreed. The only thing I’ve ever asked for from work regarding my birthday is if I can have the day off, and I don’t tell them why.

    3. AnnaleighUK*

      OldJob did cake for birthdays (paid for by the company, it was only ever supermarket cupcakes but still, cake!) unless it was a Big Birthday, then we’d have a full on lunchtime party with sandwiches, cake and fizzy drinks. The Big birthdays were company-wide but normal birthdays werw just departmental. My 30th was fab, I still remember it even though it was six years ago! Oh, and there’s always a gift for a birthday, even if it’s just a gift card for somewhere. I got a year subscription to my favourite magazine for my 30th and in other years got a gift card to a local cycling shop because hobbies. Not sure what current company does, I have to wait till April next year to find out!

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Actually, I’ve learned that businesses really shouldn’t give gift cards to employees, because it’s considered close enough to cash that it is technically taxable income that should be reported!

    5. vuchachu*

      I’ve never had a manager do anything special for my birthday or anyone else’s, that I’ve noticed or remember. Acknowledgement of birthdays very much varies by company and should vary by personal preference, within reason.

      Some companies do absolutely nothing, some have a monthly celebration (cake in a conference room) and attendance is optional. I like this because those who appreciate having co-workers wish them a happy birthday get that and those who don’t can choose to skip it. Some companies put the date on a shared calendar (not the year). Some companies give small gift certificates. Any of these things are fine, in my opinion, because there’s no pressure on anyone to celebrate if that’s not their thing.

      Personally, getting taken out to lunch by my manager would make me uncomfortable but I’d worry that expressing this would be awkward which means I’d have to do something I didn’t like on my birthday which should be a definite no no.

    6. Murphy*

      Not a manager, but no one in my office has ever acknowledged my birthday in any way. (This includes my first year where I signed a passed around birthday card for someone else who has the same birthday as me, and did not receive one.) I was on a team then that did cards and stuff, but I’m not any more. I’m only slightly miffed. A card or something would be nice, but I’d never expect a manager to take me out to lunch or anything like that.

    7. OtterB*

      A small office I worked in some years ago had the tradition that if you wanted to celebrate your birthday, YOU were the one responsible for celebrating it. So people would bring in a cake, or bagels, or something, and leave it in the kitchen. I don’t know how you get a tradition like that going – it was in place before I started. But I liked it for all the potential drama it sidestepped.

      My current office does cupcakes or cake at the monthly staff meeting in honor of everyone whose birthday falls that month.

    8. D.W.*

      My manager often has treats us to team lunches for birthdays, because it’s summer, and to reconnect after a really intense deliverable. We actually had one recently, and myself and my other team members treated our manager because she deserves it.

      It depends on the team and workplace culture. Our org culture is fairly casual, but while people are cordial, there is definitely a clear boundary between us and our managers. At least on our team.

    9. TheMonkey*

      We don’t do anything for birthdays. Most of us don’t even know when each other’s birthdays are.

    10. Lucky*

      My boss does nothing, because he’s terrible at the emotional labor/team building side of managing people. But other directors bring treats (donuts or bagels usually) for birthdays, and some teams will even organize multiple treats and decorate offices/cubes. Best of all, everyone brings enough to share with other teams that sit nearby – so at least my team gets to enjoy other peoples’ treats.

    11. EddieSherbert*

      My department (of 50ish) does a monthly “birthday lunch”. Whoever wants to go can join (whether it’s their birthday month or not). Everyone pays for their own stuff – we just go to certain restaurant because the birthday people get a free drink and sundae.

    12. Lora*

      I don’t even know when their birthdays are…I am a bad manager. We do have team building exercises in which we go out for beer and stuff, and there are plenty of company happy hours and free food though.

    15. Pwyll*

      Definitely depends on team/company. Current job actually gives all employees the day off on their birthday, or the Monday after if it falls on a weekend. Previously I’ve done everything from cake in the office (in an office that loved cake) to a lunch outing, to drinks after work with the team, to absolutely nothing at all (at employee’s request), depending on the dynamics, size, etc.

      1. OtterB*

        I’d forgotten that as a possibility. At a LongAgoJob everybody got a “birthday holiday,” an additional PTO day to be taken during the month of your birthday.

    16. stanleycupcakes*

      I hate being in the spotlight and I doubly hate making a scene about my birthday, so I asked my one boss (who I was pretty friendly with) if I could take a half day the next day– she asked why, and I admitted it was because of my birthday. She said to take the whole day, but I had just gotten off a week of (lovingly workplace encouraged) recovery after a stint in the ER.

      Boss took me out to lunch the next day, just the two of us, and I was able to talk pretty candidly about life and how I was adapting to the new city, about the job, and confided in her about the bullying that I was encountering at the hands of my officemate (her assurance that everyone felt bad for me, and that nobody in the building particularly enjoyed working with this bully, was a great birthday present). Other Boss showed up at the end of lunch after a meeting, and the waiter brought over a little creme brulee with a birthday candle stuck in a blackberry, which we all shared.

      It was my first big job and one where I moved to a new city where I knew nobody and lived alone (and had been having trouble with the aforementioned bullying), so the gesture was incredibly touching and meant the world to me. The usual move for birthdays, however, was squeezing all twenty of us into the tiny kitchen for cake and tea and chatting– nobody minded the close quarters, it was all very friendly. We were a small place, and so we were able to tailor birthday celebrations to the person, and I think that’s what worked best in our office culture.

    17. Amtelope*

      We used to do cards and sometimes treats, but it got unmanageable given the number of employees here, so now we announce birthdays for the month at our monthly all-staff meeting and end the meeting with cake.

    18. K.*

      Cake or preferred substitute. Small team so everyone gets their own on/near the day. (I used to work somewhere where the “policy” was one celebration per month for everyone whose birthday was in that month).

    19. Jen RO*

      In my office people (managers and non-managers) chip in and buy a gift for the birthday person. There are no gift specifically from managers and I think people would feel uncomfortable if they received something from their manager. The lunch would be even more awkward!

    20. Lemon Zinger*

      Not a manager, but that is the LAST thing I would ever want on my birthday. I don’t celebrate my birthday and prefer to bring my own lunch to work for a variety of reasons. I have no interest in ever sharing a meal with my manager, and we haven’t done that in the year and a half I’ve been in this role.

    21. A.N.O.N.*

      In my small department (6 employees), we get cake or some other sweet substitute, some drinks, and hang out and chat for 20-30 min white we eat. It’s a nice little break in the day.

    23. kittymommy*

      At my dept the dept head or highest manager takes the employee out to lunch wherever they choose (most everyone guess as well). Later :/ the day will be cake and/or ice cream.
      We like our food related events.

    24. I'm Not Phyllis*

      I haven’t done anything in the past, but my boss gives me a card which I think is nice. I don’t want gifts or anything of that sort but it’s nice that he remembers.

    25. Kara Zor-El*

      Our small team does cupcakes for people’s birthdays. I also got my direct report a card. I wouldn’t inflict a lunch with me upon her on her birthday. ;)

    26. Bagpuss*

      We don’t do anything formal. At out office, the birthday person brings in cake or other treats. It works well as it’s down to each person whether or not they want to celebrate.

      There are a few exceptions. Our former Office Junior (now promoted!) turned 21 recently so we gave her flowers and there was cake and snacks.

      As an employer I’d find it odd and a bit awkward to take an employee out to lunch for their birthday

      1. Chicken Little*

        I supervise a work unit of 9 in a branch library. I generally bring a small plant (less than $7) and a cake from a local supermarket. They do the greeting cards amongst themselves.

    27. Humble Schoolmarm*

      In my current job, we get a “Oh, it’s your birthday? Happy birthday!” if it happens to come up. My students somehow always get wind of it and will serenade me and sometimes bring cake.

      We did do a birthday thing when I started my first job. We had a “birthday club” where anyone who was interested chipped in $5 and the Social Committee used the money to get a cake and a card. I guess the money wasn’t covering expenses, though, because the next year it became “birthday buddies” where you were assigned a co-worker and had to buy the cake and card and organize the party yourself. Well, I was working 10 hours per week and earning $7 per hour. I figured I didn’t need a work party badly enough to spend a good chunk of my income on cake.

    28. Valkyrie*

      I work at a very small law firm and for all our birthdays the boss buys everyone lunch and we get to pick the cake we want from the local bakery.

    29. ModernHypatia*

      We have a tiny group (three people: me, a peer, and our shared assistant, where I’m formally our assistant’s manager, but we work closely together, and we’re the only three people in our organisation doing what we focus on.)

      We go out to lunch, and we’ve hit the tradition of the two people whose birthday it isn’t paying for the person it is. (We’re never going anywhere very pricy: the extra share is under $10)

      We normally eat lunch together, though all of us also regularly do a “Eating at my desk, got a thing.” as well when we need to, so this is a step up from our normal, but only one step, not more, and we also go out to lunch off-campus a few times at other points in the year.

    30. poppunkcat*

      My job has cake day once a month to celebrate all the birthdays for that month. Everyone in the building is invited by email, and the email lists all the birthdays for the month. Lasts about an hour or so in the break room.

  16. Academic instructor*

    I’ve done a terrible job of keeping in touch with previous managers. I was a full-time university instructor so didn’t really have a boss per se. Any tips about how to keep those relationships fresh, even though I don’t intend to job-search for a few years? Do I even need to? Advice from department heads especially welcome. :)

    1. S*

      I do not do this, but a colleague used to send my Director holiday cards each year. I thought it was nice and often it was impersonal, like a pic of him and his dog in holiday sweaters.

    2. Rainy, PI*

      I keep in touch with former profs, heads of department, etc via very intermittent emails, and no one has ever minded or been unwilling to respond. Every email, sent or received, usually begins with a ritualized “sorry it took me so long to return this!” and from what I can tell we all feel extremely pleased at remembering at all, and happy to catch up with one another.

  17. AnnaleighUK*

    So I mentioned my colleague had been fired while I’d been on my holibobs and this week, we started getting CV’s for hiring a replacement. Neither me nor Manager are remotely impressed with any of them. We’re building inspectors so we take people with architecture and/or structural engineering backgrounds and you know what, literally NONE of the CV’s have either of those subjects as a degree. We’re beginning to wonder what’s up and also where the post is being advertised – we’ve not found it on Indeed or any of the industry boards. So it’s been a very frustrating week.

    Also someone backed into my car at a petrol station this morning and called me a stupid woman who should learn how to park a ‘crappy German gas guzzler you don’t even need’. I said nothing, we exchanged details for insurance and the petrol station owner said he will keep the video just in case. So now there’s a big scratch and dent on my lovely BMW but I’m proud that I didn’t cry, it would have made a crummy day at work worse! And I’m stuck here till 6 (just gone 4) tonight!

    1. kbeers0su*

      Ugh…what a day. I would keep hope up with the CV thing. It might just be that qualified folks are still working on their applications and haven’t applied yet. I’ve found in a lot of searches my best candidates don’t come in until 1-2 weeks after the posting has gone out. The first set usually seem to be the folks who apply for anything.

    2. Paige Turner*

      They backed into you at the station and then said that??? Sounds like someone won the gold medal in the Some Nerve Olympics.

      Good luck with finding a replacement for your coworker- without knowing more details, I’d say it’s totally reasonable to ask HR or whoever where the job is being advertised and maybe recommend some places where you’d like to see the job ad posted (professional associations, universities, etc).

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        Boyfriend says I need a pizza and Tom Hiddleston movie so he’s coming over with both and a bottle of wine. Fifteen minutes then I can leave! Also my beloved car is being taken away by BMW tomorrow morning so she should be fixed on Monday. Hurray. Long bike ride tomorrow to thrash this out I think!

          1. AnnaleighUK*

            Kong: Skull Island – neither of us have seen that. I just pulled into my driveway and my flatmate opened the front door and she’s made some scones. I’m going to have a good night.

            1. misspiggy*

              It’s a great movie – hope you liked it! When I worked in HR we advertised very little in August. So many people were on holiday it wasn’t worth it. And then of course few candidates bother looking in August ‘cos so little is advertised… self fulfilling prophecy innit.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        It’s a British term for ‘holiday although it seems to be oddly specific to the South East as I’d never heard it before I moved down here. I like it, it makes me think of bouncy holidays.

          1. AnnaleighUK*

            Evidently not in Stirling which is where I’m from! Or nobody ever used it but here in Surrey it’s really common usage. Next time I speak to Parents I will ask if they’ve ever used the term!

            1. Tanith73*

              I’ve seen/heard/used the term in Edinburgh – but it’s maybe imported from the SE lol

    5. JustaTech*

      I totally know your pain re: job posting. The last recruiter we had, man, I don’t know where they were advertising the technical job, maybe the “Anti-technology Times” because the very few resumes we got were just not relevant at all.

  18. Nonprofit Lady*

    I do a lot of client work in my role, and that frequently means that my team is having conference calls with clients or external partners. The problem: my boss and another coworker who is senior to me both have a habit of muting the call and talking bad about our client or partner. (Eg: Client makes a request, coworker mutes the line and says to the room, “are you f***ing serious?!, then unmutes and says “sure, of course we can take care of that.”) They also will make faces, throw their hands up in frustration, etc. during these calls. I find this incredibly childish and unprofessional, but I’m also nervous that one of these days, they could screw up and accidentally say something when they think they’re muted, but they’re not. During the calls doesn’t seem like the best place to address it, but I’m not sure when is? And it’s also sticky because the instigators are superior to me. Any tips for handling this?

    1. self employed*

      I’m pretty sure they will make a mistake one of these days. It’s not on you; if you were the boss, it’d be different. Let them mess over themselves, I’m afraid.

    2. S*

      My colleagues will sometimes do it about students and I am usually like “oh that isn’t bad” or “really? I think it is a pretty reasonable request”

    3. Hey Anonny Nonny*

      Yeah, that’s absolutely going to blow up in their faces one day. I would say nothing and let them learn their lesson with real consequences like losing business, but another option would be asking with wide-eyed innocence, “Wow, are you ever worried the mute button won’t work and the client will hear you?”

    4. Amtelope*

      Hmm. I think actual trash-talking while muted is risky for the reasons you mention, but at least where I work, the purpose of having the team physically together to take calls (rather than everyone taking them from their desk) is to be able to communicate during the call. People frantically pantomiming things like “if you agree to that deadline, we’re all going to die” doesn’t bother me, and neither does carefully(!) muting the call to try to figure out how to say things like “you are asking for unicorn, and we don’t do unicorns” or “the timeline you are proposing would require time travel” or “I have no idea what that string of buzzwords you just used means” in a less exasperated way. But I agree it’s not risk-free.

      1. Nonprofit Lady*

        yeah, good point… I can see where muting would be helpful. I also find it pretty distracting though- like if we’re muting and talking over the client, we may miss something that the client requests. I guess I think there are good professional reasons for doing this, but usually my coworkers are more on the side of unprofessional IMO. Another example was when we had a client team that was an older man and a much younger woman, and my coworker would mute and make jokes about how they were sleeping together. Totally inappropriate and gross! Ack!

        1. Amtelope*

          Okay, yeah, those jokes sound really awful, and completely over the line. And muting and talking over the client can be a problem, I agree — you need the person running the meeting to have good judgment. I think it helps that we’re usually on calls where there’s a team on each end, and so both sides expect some pauses for internal discussion.

          What would probably be safer is moving the side chatter to some kind of chat/IM format (where the client isn’t looped in to that method of communication at all) — I wonder if you could sell your team on that.

    5. neverjaunty*

      They absolutely will make – mistake.

      I would be tempted to make a concerned face and say “I don’t think you pushed the mute button all the way down last time.”

    6. Artemesia*

      There are whole movies around people thinking they are on line but are on another or that they are muted but are not. What can these bozos be thinking?

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Let the chips fall where they may.
      You are not responsible for someone else’s misstep.

      If you cannot ease your worried mind, why not ask one of them what they would like you to do if the mute button fails at some point. If they laugh, shrug and let it go.

      I had a boss who would listen in on my phone conversations. One day I was talking to another manager, my boss’ peer but in a different location. Peer started berating my boss in a SPECTACULAR manner. All I said was, “Peer Boss, My Boss can hear you.” Everything Peer Boss said was entirely true, but there was not a darn thing I could do other than hang up. So I did.

  19. Beetus*

    Tell me the most BS rumor you’ve heard about your job/industry. (Bonus points if there is a rumor that’s true =p)

    I was watching that Netflix doc, What the Health (couldn’t even finish watching that poop), and he kept cold calling these national organizations and was expecting the first person he talked to to be an expert on XYZ. You know you’re talking to admin staff right? Sometimes a teen intern. Further, as someone who used to work at very large well-known non-prof…buddy, there is no conspiracy theory. It’s not that serious.

    Anyway, in my current job it’s all about “ohmergerh, vaxcinesss cause da awteesem!!!111!!!!! Death!!! Toxins!!!!” I’ve always encouraged family and friends to ask questions, since you know…I’m a real person who actually works with national experts and medical professionals on the subject. And I don’t sell diet detox teas.

    1. FDCA In Canada*

      I work in the employment field. I have heard literally every nonsense rumor in the book. People will sail into our office, confidently proclaiming that such-and-so is illegal, only to be deflated when we tell them that it isn’t illegal to schedule you for a day you don’t want to work/make you work your scheduled shift/make you wear the appropriate clothing and protective gear/make you observe food safety protocol/fire you for picking your nose in front of customers while cooking/fire you for not showing up/fire you for not working and socializing with your friends on the clock instead.

      This is not even to get into the mountain of rumors and nonsense surrounding hiring, references, resumes, and so on.

      1. Lucky*

        Lawyer here. My team has joked about setting up a swear jar, but for people who come to us to tell us what’s legal/not legal. Like, that is literally the reason we are here. We figure at $5 a violation, we could easily pay for a luxury dinner cruise for our holiday party.

      2. LawPancake*

        So much! I literally just had a friend of my spouse text to ask me if it was legal that her employer wanted her to come in on a day that the business was closed… Uh yeah, why on earth would there be a law about that?

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      The one I run into most in marketing is that you can just make something go viral. Always from people who sell a dreadfully dull product and have no existing following on any platform. Like, I’m not magic.

      1. Manders*

        Yes! Same with people asking for “growth hacking” when their company has been around for 20 years and it produces widgets for obscure technical niches.

        I work in SEO, and I get a lot of people thinking I’m good at IT because I “work with computers.”

      2. MissDisplaced*

        The biggest thing lately in marketing is that EVERYBODY seems to thing implementing a big huge expensive CRM system will somehow “solve” all the issues with sales and marketing.

        CRM’s are great tools… but not magic. AND the sales staff actually has to USE them for it to work.

    4. Emi.*

      I work for NASA, and there’s a whole sub-world of Youtube devoted to conspiracies about us. We didn’t land humans on the Moon; we didn’t land rovers on Mars (all those pictures are from Devon Island, did you know?); we did land rovers on Mars *and* we’re running a teen slave labor colony there; all the ISS footage is filmed on the vomit comet; all the ISS footage is filmed on Earth with wire harnesses in front of a greenscreen; all the ISS footage is filmed in space and shows alien spacecraft; all the ISS footage is filmed in space and shows that the Earth is flat, …

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This is a total aside but I once saw a license plate from Oklahoma at a cheese stop in deepest rural Wisconsin (honestly, you have to be from the area to know its there) that said NASAH8R. We took a picture of that and have always wondered ever since just what the National Space Administration ever did to THAT poor guy.

        Maybe he’s one of your youtubers!

      2. Sled Dog Mama*

        I was under the impression that it was all orphan slave labors from those who were not yet teenagers. but I’m glad to have that misconception cleared up. Only teens I think that’s acceptable, is there somewhere I can apply to send my teen to the slave labor colony, I think it would build character.

      4. Beetus*

        Excuse me, but you haven’t addressed the topic of aliens!!! ;)

        *X-Files theme plays in the background*

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Stock market.

      Just. Stock market. I talk to clients all day and some of their ideas are fascinating, let me tell you.

      Of course, by ‘fascinating’ what I mean really is that I sit at my desk speechless as I try to find courteous ways to explain that apparently their knowledge of investments dates to sometime prior to 1934….

      1. Manders*

        I once listened to my boss explaining to his daughter that she needed to buy gold because America’s currency works on the gold standard. It’s amazing what people think they know about money.

    6. neverjaunty*

      Lawyer. I could be here all day with the crazy things people think about the profession, but mostly it’s “no, you really can’t just file a Bs lawsuit and get paid billions of dollars to go away.”

      1. Pwyll*

        We did really have to sell our soul to be admitted, however. It’s in the fine print after you pass the bar exam.

        /s

        1. neverjaunty*

          You’re supposed to have had your soul slowly murdered by inches in law school! Millenials. ;D

      3. Delta Delta*

        Also lawyer. Fun things like “lawyers make a lot of money!” (some do, but not all of them). I also rather enjoy when people tell me what’s illegal and what isn’t, because I am genuinely curious about where the ideas originate.

    7. Anon a Bonbon*

      I work in organ donation…where should I start? You sell organs to China, you run people over in the street and steal their organs, we collect organs for space aliens. I got a letter saying that we cut the heads off of people and sell their brains for food. Their was one about taking organs and giving them to Satan so he could make pies with them. All American apple pies- with Satan organs.
      I won’t even get into the damage that TV and movies do with their conspiracy stories.

      1. Emily*

        Organ donation sounds fascinating, actually! Do healthy people ever donate organs, or is it mostly people who are about to pass away? How long can donated organs be stored, and are there specific cleaning/processing steps you have to take with them before they’re ready to be transplanted into someone else?

        1. TL -*

          Not in the field but – healthy people can donate a kidney and I think a partial liver donation, as well as bone marrow. Bone marrow is often done stranger-to-stranger (There’s a registry you can sign up for) but kidney and liver are much more likely to be family and/or close friends (But mostly family). You can do a stranger-stranger donation but they’re much more likely to be ethically and emotionally complicated.

          Donated organs have to be put in the recipient within hours; I think 4-6 hours is the guidelines? But I could be wrong. The best is to have the surgeries in the same hospital but you can transport on ice if needed.

          Donors have to be tested for certain transferable diseases and you have to be a match in blood type and certain immune components or the recipient’s body will reject the new organ (basically their immune system will start attacking it.) I don’t think there’s any specific cleaning but they have to removed in a specific way and undamaged.

      3. Death Rides a Pale Volvo*

        You collect organs from space aliens??? Have you spoken to Emi. above? There’s a slave labor colony on Mars that might be well worth a harvesting visit.

    8. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

      I’m not sure if this is just in comment sections about nonprofits that I’ve worked for but I’ve heard multiple people say that non-profit staff don’t pay taxes on their income. If that was true, I may actually get closer to being paid a living wage!

      1. k.k*

        Or that we’re all fat-cat’s getting rich of the donations that should be going to our cause.

      3. over educated*

        Or government! “My taxes pay your salary” is a very common comment. Not on government payroll right now but when I was, I always wanted to say “yeah, mine do too, and together they provide this service you are benefiting from. You’re welcome!”

        1. Government worker*

          “Oh, and where do you work? Walmart? How interesting. My shopping pays your salary. When is your next shift, so I can come tell you what to do?”

        2. Julianne*

          I was explaining to my (5th grade, English language learner) students how taxes work, and how as a public school teacher, I get paid with money that gets taken out of everyone’s paychecks by the government. The kids were like, okay, we need schools (and police, firefighters, etc.), that makes sense. Then one of them asked if the government takes MY money. Yes they do, I told them. He goes, so they take your money to pay you?! That makes no sense!

          Later that day, his math teacher ran into me in the hallway and told me that the kid came up to him at the end of class and informed him that the government is taking his (the math teacher’s) money and it doesn’t make sense.

    9. Lora*

      I work in pharma. Although the antivax thing is frustrating as heck, I get it that most people really don’t understand at ALL how immunology works, so OK, I can kinda understand that if you’ve never seen what vaccine-preventable diseases to do people and have some misguided notion of control over your personal health, and you’re not at all scientifically literate and the school systems have failed you miserably, you might believe in the antivax nonsense.

      My personal favorite is that we have the cure for all cancers somewhere in our secret lairs, and we just won’t sell it to people. I asked the person telling me, where exactly in the secret lair? Because I have an all-access badge and I’ve had cancer twice and it really sucked out loud both times and I’d rather not do it again. Many of my colleagues have also had cancer themselves, had loved ones with cancer, etc. We get sick like anyone else, and believe me, if we could cure it, we would have. Also, at every job I’ve ever had there was always at least one a-hole who couldn’t have kept a secret to save his life – there’s no way in heck we’d all be able to keep secrets that well.

      It’s true that I do have access to drugs other people don’t, but the only reason I ever get them is because my health insurance is awesome. If you had the fancy BCBS high-end plan, you’d get awesome drugs too.

      1. Emi.*

        I became infinitely more sympathetic to anti-vax people when I realized how un-rigorous my own reasons for being pro-vax are. I believe that vaccines are good and save lives because … my mom told me that when I was little. The only advantage I have over people who believe their moms that vaccines cause autism is sheer dumb luck.

        1. Attie*

          I almost died of vaccine-preventable disease (whooping cough) at 6 months old. You’d think that kind of thing would make people think better of vaccines, but somehow my mom managed to go through that still anti-vax!

          It never rubbed off on me though. I didn’t think about it as a child but as soon as it got on my radar I made a point of getting all vaccinations offered (my university has regular vaccination campaigns). I think I’m finally caught up on all of the recommended ones, next year I’ll only need to get myself stuck with needles once! (For flu)

      2. Nonprofit pro*

        I used to work in an academic cancer center and the number of times I heard how we had the cure for cancer already and were just being evil to make more money…. Made my head go ‘splody.

        1. Anxa*

          Especially when you consider how many cancer researchers are grad students, volunteers, underpaid lab techs and others who are in poverty or are lower-middle class. Or middle class with huge student loans.

      3. JustaTech*

        Or when you’re at a wedding or something an Great- Aunt Whomever insists that chemo kills more people than cancer. Uh, no? And why are you yelling at me in the middle of the reception?
        Or when some friend-of-a-friend insists that everyone in Pharma makes billions and is Shkreli. No?

        1. Lora*

          Dang, if we had that kind of money I’d hire someone to clean the litter boxes and vacuum/dust more often. I wouldn’t be putting off getting the roof replaced… I’d make crab legs for supper, buy some gravel for the garden, hire my neighbor’s landscaper to re-do the front yard, get a massage every two weeks, buy some new work boots, buy material for the Nuno felting project I’ve been wanting to try… Wow, I kinda lack the Scrooge McDuck imagination I guess? Maybe that’s why I only got three drugs to market.

      4. Rusty Shackelford*

        My personal favorite is that we have the cure for all cancers somewhere in our secret lairs, and we just won’t sell it to people.

        That’s one of the most amazing ones to me. People who work for “big pharma” get cancer. So do their loved ones. Why would they keep the cure under wraps?

        1. YouvwantmetodoWHAT?!*

          An old friend is a cancer researcher. Her entire career has been trying to find cures. A few years back her husband died of a particularly bad type of cancer. He was an amazing man.
          I’ve had far too many friends and family die from cancer and too many that have had to go through treatment. One of my besties just had to deal with uterine cancer.
          I have absolutely no patience and I will not tolerate that particular rumour. Vehemently.

          1. TL -*

            Yeah, I worked in a lab with a whole ton of MD/PhDs and anyone who says that to me gets a huge earful. My mentor treats lung cancer patients and I wouldn’t put myself what she goes through for anything in the world.

    10. Triangle Pose*

      I’m a lawyer.

      So…almost everything that’s ever been said to me? No, just kidding.

      Everyone has misconceptions about the law. Including other lawyers!

      1. Liane*

        I have confessed here before that, up until a Public Health prof (and lawyer) did a “high school Civics for grad students” lecture, I had no clue you couldn’t appeal a case just because the original verdict wasn’t in your favor.

    12. RabbitRabbit*

      A vegan dietician reviewed that movie and laid out a great argument about how much nonsense there was in it. When you’re making vegans mad, you have failed.

      I work in medical research (used to work with human subjects, now working with regulatory aspects of the human subject research at our institution), so, yeah, there’s a ton. How we’re just using people as “guinea pigs” (btw, we treat the animals very humanely all things considered and would love to have reliable alternatives to that, too), all the Big Pharma Conspiracies stuff, how we’re hiding cures and promoting treatments which make ongoing money, blah blah blah.

      1. Beetus*

        Yes!!! I read that! (IDK if there are other vegan RD articles debunking him, but I’m pretty sure we’ve referring to the review. It was a good read). It was linked at sciencebasedmedicine dot org.

    13. Pwyll*

      When I worked in politics it was that everything operated like The West Wing. So many interns expecting to be Josh Lyman and sit around in meetings with the Senator to advise on their thoughts as to policy and strategy.

      Nope. Go knock on some doors. How many did you knock on? Add 100 and then come back tomorrow to knock on some more. You get to be Josh Lyman after you’ve put in 20 years, like all the consultants on this campaign, not after your first internship for that state representative who happened to win but didn’t hire you because he’s your cousin.

    14. JayeRaye*

      Banking. So. Many. Theories.
      Did you know bank branches keep the fees you’re assessed and throw themselves fabulous parties? Did you know banks make ‘ghost debits’ to overdraw your account so that you have to pay overdraft fees? I’ve heard them all over the years. But my personal favorite has nothing to do with banking:

      Apparently bath salts are not an actual drug. ‘Bath salts’ were made up by the government to cover up the real problem – that demonic posession is on the rise all over the world. Anytime there’s a posession incident, the government silences everyone by saying that it’s ‘bath salts’.

      1. Buffy*

        The bath salt theory tickles me soooo much. Probably because I’m hoping Sam and Dean come to save the day at some point.

      2. JayeRaye*

        Ooo, almost forgot this one:
        The chip in your credit/debit card is not there to encrypt your card information. Its real purpose is to gather up your spending data and send it to ‘Them’. I tried very hard to figure out who ‘They’ were, but the gentleman informing me of this conspiracy wouldn’t tell me. He was afraid They were listening.

        1. Artemesia*

          When I charge stuff I know that THEY have the information; that is kind of what a charge card does.

      3. YouvwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        Bath salts. O.M.G. this is the best thing that I’ve read all day.
        That includes back letters from Captain Awkward, Retail Hell Underground, any of the Not Always, and my current In Death book.
        (I am procrastinating but HARD today!)

    15. Master Bean Counter*

      I’m an accountant.
      Yes I have a personality.
      Just because you could do something 10 years ago on your taxes doesn’t mean you can do it now.

    16. Artemesia*

      There are tons of people in rural towns who believe that all minorities get free college. Their kids can’t go to college because they are white and they can’t afford it but all black kids go for free. I thought this was one whack job, but it turns out it is the gospel in large swaths of the country. This kind of thing gets pushed on crazy media and goes a long way towards explaining our current political situation. Because I worked in higher ed part of my career, I have had people complain to me how unfair this is.

      1. Nonprofit pro*

        I just said the twitter thread about one person’s experience with this. I don’t understand where that thought process came from!

      2. Lora*

        Wow. I’m from Middle of Nowhere, PA and nobody has brought this up to me. Perhaps because they know I went to college on scholarship, as did my dad? It’s a REALLY small town and they also know that if they complained they didn’t get into college, one of the parents or acquaintances would yell, “that’s because you smoked weed and drank Schlitz all day instead of studying in school, ya friggin slacker! If you’d’ve studied like (someone else, usually not me) and quit mouthing off at the vice principal you’d’a gone ta college too!”

      3. RobW*

        This is the worst sort of rumor because when enough people believe it, politicians make promises to address it, get elected based on these promises, and affect public policy to suit their own ends using these as their excuses.

        Right now, the US Department of Justice wants to investigate this alleged “reverse discrimination” described by that rumor and is planning to pull funds from civil rights enforcement for this purpose. And the so called Voting Integrity Commission is preparing to strip millions of Americans’ legitimate voter registrations before the next election on the blatantly, absurdly false rumor that millions of illegal immigrants voted in the last election.

    17. Liane*

      Rumors my customers at (In)Famous Retailer have proclaimed loudly:
      Customer#1: “Dang-Effing-Nabbit! It’s NOT against the law for you to let me return/exchange ammunition [or firearms]!”
      Customer#2: “You *Have to* accept my Concealed Carry Permit as ID [for a credit card transaction]. It’s from the guv’mint AND has my picture. So there!”

      My former pastor, who is both a hunter and a lawyer and keeps his Bar membership and other law credentials up-to-date so he can do pro bono work:
      1-Nope, the Store Policies aren’t lying–Federal law prohibits returns of guns and ammo.
      2-It’s actually illegal in [our state] to use your Concealed Carry Permit as ID.

      Of the 3, guess who I believe?

    18. Bad Candidate*

      I work in insurance and most people think that insurance companies will do whatever they can to get out of paying claims. Which is pretty true and why it’s such a regulated industry.

      1. Artemesia*

        When I landed in the hospital with a broken bone needing surgery last fall while traveling abroad, the travel insurance people told me that they had to make sure it wasn’t a pre-existing condition (although the policy actually covered pre-existing conditions and it is hard to see how falling down stairs of an ancient ruin and breaking a bone was likely to be pre-existing 5 weeks into a trip) We all know the story of the woman who had not reported she was treated for acne as a teen and so they refused to pay for her breast cancer treatment.

    19. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’m a computer geek and the theory is that we are all techie geniuses. That is utter nonsense. There are so many mediocre and downright bad programmers out there – did you every wonder why your software can be so lousy? There are a few brilliant people, and the rest of us fall into a normal bell curve with the truly lousy ones balancing it out. Your IT staff is often not smarter than you – you and they just have different areas of knowledge. If we claim we are smarter, that’s probably a good sign that we are not.

    20. Manders*

      There’s a lot of misinformation out there about what marketers can see about you as a person. Yes, you can get eerily accurate ads following you around the internet because you viewed a certain product. No, that doesn’t mean we can enter your name into a database and pull up all the dirty details about you.

      When people were discussing the possibility of the US government allowing marketers to buy certain data directly from ISPs, a lot of people set up fundraisers saying they were going to buy senators’ data. That’s not how it works. Why would marketers even want to have the ability to do that?

    21. Hellanon*

      Jewelry biz. Do NOT get me started on the number of times I’ve been asked about the healing properties of minerals/crystals/random lumps of salt. “People believe all kinds of crazy stuff has an effect on them” is my usual answer, closely followed by the suggestion that they look up the definition of “placebo.”

    22. Princess Carolyn*

      Oh yeah, and when I worked for local newspapers, we were constantly accused of a few things:

      a) Hating your favorite sports team and loving their rival (especially at the high school level, which I thought was especially weird)
      b) Having a secret political agenda
      c) Just flat-out making stuff up (this was a few years before “fake news”)
      d) Being incompetent because a small error made it into the paper (only idiots make typos when they’re in a hurry!)

      Also, a lot of people thought newspaper folks were very highly paid because (some) journalists on national TV made pretty good (but honestly not amazing) money.

    23. Catty Hack*

      That journalists don’t check their facts/just write whatever they want is the one which makes me scream. Sure, there is a real problem with fake news and I also know of a few bad apples who are sloppy with their fact checking but the vast majority of us are legitimately working our butts off to get everything accurate.

      That’s not to say mistakes don’t slip in but, when they are there, it’s usually down to things like editing errors, a source feeding in the wrong information, misunderstandings or just being human rather than it being part of a big conspiracy to lie to the public. And almost all of us would be mortified if you pointed out a genuine factual error (rather than an ‘I don’t like your tone’ complaint or an ‘I disagree with this so therefore it is wrong’ rant) and would move to correct it if you pointed it out.

      Also, every time I’m told I’m being one sided/asked why I didn’t talk to XYZ and the reason for that was that the person or people I approached to give it more balance didn’t pick up the phone, weren’t able to or didn’t want to comment or even gave me a strop about how I was ‘just a typical journalist’ and refused to engage with me, part of me dies inside.

      …It’s been a rough day, guys.

    24. Simone R*

      Basically any show that has lab work done in it! Everyone I work with is dreading the new CRISPR “bio-terror drama” since it seems to ride on a lot of misconceptions and will probably miseducate people to what CRISPR actually is! As it hasn’t come out yet, maybe it will be better than it sounds but I’m skeptical.

      1. Anxa*

        Oh, similarly that CRISPR research is all super high-tech. I worked on some CRISPR research and a lot of what I did was traditional molecular biology. I’m not that smart or at a fancy institution or anything like that.

    25. MarianCSRA*

      I’m a public librarian and more than once people have said things like “it must be nice to get to read books all day” and “it’s so nice of all of you to volunteer your time like this.” Um…I don’t get to read books at work. Not even professional materials – there’s no time for that. I actually have a master’s degree to work here, and there’s no way I’d volunteer 40 hours a week for years on end in a public service job.

      1. JanetM*

        I once answered the phone at work and had this conversation:

        Me: Graduate School of Library and Information Sciences, this is Janet.

        Caller: Do you have summer programs for pre-schoolers?

        Me: No, you need the public library; just a minute and I’ll look up their number for you.

        Caller: Isn’t this the library?

        Me: No, this is the School of Library and Information Sciences at the university.

        Caller: What do you do there?

        Me: The school offers a masters degree for people who want to become librarians.

        Caller: You have to have a degree to be a librarian?! That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard! (slams phone in my ear)

    26. SQL Coder Cat*

      So… in a previous career, I did fertility/sterility research- mainly testing fertility drugs or new birth control formulations. In monkeys. Apparently we were all sadistic creeps who tortured and murdered our research animals. Ignoring the many many ways this would be found out and reported immediately, there’s the simple fact that monkeys are expensive and hard to replace. Our monkeys started off in childhood cognitive studies, moved on to the fert/stert group or another mid-life cycle research lab, and eventually ended up with the anti-senility researchers.

      On a lighter note, that’s how I learned that monkeys can count. One of my duties was to draw blood samples for checking hormone levels. I would come into the room with my kit, and the monkeys would run to the door in their cage that led to the draw area. When I opened the door, they ran to the immobilization apparatus that held them still so we could safely drawn their blood, and settle in. Once the blood was taken, they got out and held out their hands for their reward- six Cocoa Puffs. If I accidentally gave them five, they would scream bloody murder while holding out their hands to show they didn’t get the full six. If I gave them seven, I knew because they would look in their hands, and then immediately stuff them all in their mouth so I couldn’t take back the extra.

      1. MJ (Aotearoa/New Zealand)*

        I had never considered that monkeys would move through a “life cycle” of different research, but it totally makes sense!

    27. The Unkind Raven*

      Teacher. I’m apparently overpaid and lazy. I have too much time off, and all the students are brilliant angels and I’m some sort of monster who provokes their worst behavior and crushes their creativity.

      (I actually love my job – I teach high school – but this is what I hear.)

      1. Julianne*

        YUP. I love asking non-teachers to suggest research-based interventions for my students when they tell me I’m overpaid/don’t work enough/etc.

        I actually don’t get told that I crush souls and creativity or drive children to misbehavior very much, but I get told that all kids (especially the immigrant children of color I teach) are crazy, disrespectful, and incapable of learning. What I actually say is, “Wow, that’s racist, and this conversation is over.” What I want to add is that if you’re 9 years old and you’ve seen members of your immediate family get shot to death and/or traveled to the US on your own in a way that may have involved riding in the back of a commercial truck with dozens of strangers, you might have days where following directions or adding fractions is more than you can handle, too.

    28. Student*

      I’m in nuclear physics (research, not power plants specifically). So, yeah, lots of interesting questions.

      Yes, I’ve been asked if I glow in the dark.

      Most of the extremely complicated weird questions fall into astrophysics – black holes especially. Never mind that those aren’t particularly nuclear; everyone hears “physics” and thinks of black holes, apparently.

      “Interesting” theories of time, space, curvature of space-time, relativity, particles, strings (save me from armchair string theorists), aliens, sound, the afterlife, God, Heaven, Hell, Zeno’s paradoxes.

      Then people eventually key in on the nuclear aspect, beyond the ubiquitous glow-in-the-dark bit. It used to be all Chernobyl and cancer, now it’s Fukushima and cancer. Nobody ever believes me when I tell them the coal power plants put out more radiation than nuclear power plants do, though.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        The only thing I ever wondered about nuclear scientists is how Homer Simpson managed to become one

    29. This Daydreamer*

      I work in a domestic violence shelter. The worst? “Why don’t they just leave?” “She’s just trying to get money.” AAAAUUUUUGGGHHHHH

  20. S*

    Our admin does very little work and is often on her cell in personal calls. However, she’s on a PIP and making minor improvements. I think this means that she will not be let go, but will still continue to work at 1/100 of the pace we need her to. Any advice? Her direct supervisor is also my direct supervisor, but I am senior to her.

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like the PIP is public enough knowledge that her performance is discussable. What is it that you need her to do that you’re having to do instead or isn’t getting done? Take that to your boss and say “I know that Jane’s showing some improvement, but I’m concerned that I’m still having to do the Teapot Reports and that we’re still a week behind processing the spout donations.”

      1. S*

        There are some things that I cannot wait on so I just do them now instead of giving them to her. The same case for several people on my team (she supports all 4 of us, but primarily 1 person who doesn’t trust her enough to delegate anything to her).

          1. S*

            Thank you! I have but I think what I need to do is give her more and more work that is inconsequential if it isn’t completed, so that my work doesnt suffer because she doesnt do her part.

            1. OhNo*

              If any of your work has a far enough out deadline, you could give them to her and say, “I need this by [date that will give you enough time to do it yourself].” Then, when she doesn’t do it, go to your boss and say, “I gave Admin the Spout Report to do by yesterday, and she didn’t do it. It has a hard deadline, so I’m going to do it myself, which means I’ll have to push back Projects X and Y.”

              Especially if it’s important work for clients, that might help your boss see the problem clearly.

    2. Artemesia*

      I would be weighing in with her supervisor about how her improvement does not bring her close to the level needed. This is an occasion to be blunt both about the pace of her work and the time wasting. Why is she not literally barred from having a phone at her desk or taking any personal calls on the clock?

      1. S*

        I feel the same way about barring her from her phone. The unfortunate thing is that our boss is down the hallway, so she doesnt hear her on her phone the way we do, and she’ll put it away when she sees our boss coming. I cant think of what to do about that than writing down everytime she is on it and for how long.

          1. fposte*

            No, that’s way overstepping; I’d be pretty appalled if one of my staffers did that. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry that much about the phone at all–the issue is that stuff isn’t getting done, not that she’s on the phone; it’s not like it’ll be a solution if she puts the phone down and still doesn’t get her work done.

  21. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    I’ve been meaning to ask this for ages, and maybe I’m early enough this week! Any advice on how to discuss interest/aspiration for a promotion when you’re fully aware that you’re not a rockstar in your current role? I’ve been an admin for several years now. I never wanted to go into admin work, but the recession + soft degree + lack of internships relevant experience led me to sort of be pigeon-holed into this. I’m a good admin. I can perform the job well, always received satisfactory-positive reviews on my work. However I’m not rockstar and will never be a rockstar. I’m just not terribly well-suited to this type of work.

    I’m trying to move into something (I’m currently the admin for the department that does this work) that I’d be much better suited for (working on ongoing and larger scale project that requires more heads down work with longer stretches of attention required). With this type of work I truly believe I could be a rockstar.

    How do I talk about moving into this type of (admittedly higher-responsibility/more complex work) when I acknowledge that I’m not “mastering” my current work that is seen as easier/less complex. Not to knock admin work – I admire the admins that I work with that ARE rockstars!

    To be clear – my reviews have all been positive. No one is actively unhappy with my work. I just know that I’m not quite “top-knotch”/rockstar level.

    1. fposte*

      Some of this depends on your work culture, but I wouldn’t generally say that you have to be a rock star to move up or discuss not being a rock star when you discuss your future; hell, you don’t even have to be a rock star in your new role either, because that’s not really that big a global metric anyway.

      What you can do is discuss the possibility of tracking toward this other department and ask for possible exposure to and involvement with its work if any opportunities present themselves.

    2. self employed*

      Well, you could paint it as “this role would really use my skills XYZ, which I don’t get a chance to use in my admin role.” Or “I’d love a chance to grow in ABC area, which aligns with my education/experience in this way.” Admin roles often don’t have much room for growth, which I think bosses would understand if you are seeking new challenges.

    3. La Revancha*

      I can think of 2 options:

      1) you leave the company and find a job doing something you want or…

      2) you wait until a position opens at the company you’re at.

      Waiting until a position opens up at the company you currently work for is an easy way to bring up the conversation. Most companies can’t really promote you into an entirely new role unless there’s an open position or a need for it.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Just to clarify, is the Role that you want in the department that you are currently the Admin for? If so, find ways to get more exposure to the work you want to do. Ask to be given more responsibilities in that area. If someone who does the work that you want to do goes on vacation, ask them if there is anyway that you can help out with their duties while they are away. Definitely make it known that you wish to move up and show them that you are qualified.

    4. Atomic Orange*

      I can tell you how I did it… I was in a similar situation where various circumstances lead to me taking a job that’s more admin/support oriented. It wasn’t what I went to school for and I was ill suited for it. I did a decent enough job with no performance issues, but certainly no rockstar. What I realized was that you don’t have to be a rock star admin to be a potential rock star in something else. I spoke to my manager about my career aspirations and got his blessings (actually he came to talk to me, because I didn’t apply for a higher tier admin/support job that he had considered me a shoo in for). I researched the area I wanted to move into and made a list of things I needed to work on to prove myself capable. I asked to take on additional tasks at work related to the field I wanted to move into. I also ended up doing a certificate program at a local college… which meant a year of no social life while I balanced work and school, but sacrifices had to be made. The program was great because it let me work on real life projects for actual clients. I also worked my butt off and got top grades, which meant a few of my professors actually reached out and passed along my resume to their industry contacts. I ended up taking one of those offers because it was right for my development, but still maintains a great relationship with my former boss.
      So my advice is… be honest with your boss (if you think she is the kind of person who is understanding and supportive), figure out what you need to work on to prove yourself, and be prepared to work your butt off.

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        It’s nice to hear that someone else has made it out of this “rut”. I have spoken to my boss about my goals. I feel like she just smiles and nods, then when review time comes around the only thing we talk about is how I’m doing a very good job, everyone’s very happy with me, just focus on this one or two tiny little admin things.

        I will look into outside sources/courses to buff up my skills. My specific niche/field is fairly new (it only exploded recently) so there aren’t a lot of resources available, but some programs/certificates are just starting to come out. Maybe looking into some sort external training will help show my commitment to my current employer and/or make me more attractive to external employers.

        1. Atomic Orange*

          If your boss isn’t openly supportive, then I think you should think about the possibility that you might have to move on if she isn’t willing to provide you with the opportunities. Something I did (and still do) is look up job posting of positions that I want to move into, determine a list of skills that they’re looking for, and see how well I match up. If you do that it’ll become very clear which things you need to work on to be a good match for these positions. Good luck!!!

        2. Atomic Orange*

          Also want to add… When I first interviewed for the entry level positions in my current field, I was really surprised by how well potential future employers responded to my career change. I thought I’d have to somehow justify the ‘wasted years’, but instead they were all impressed by my determination to enter this new field and how hard I was willing to work to get there. As long as you’re willing to ‘work’ to become right for a job, and not just ‘think’ you should be right for a job, there will be plenty of employers who’d be willing to take a chance on you.

    5. JustaCPA*

      I think you’ve answered it yourself really. If you want to be considered for more/better/higher level work, you have to knock it out of the ballpark with the work you’re doing.

      For instance, I have a person working for me – lets call her teapot greeter. She also does a little bit of teapot accounting. If she expressed an interest in doing teapot accounting full time or on a higher level, I would have to turn her down. The quality of what little she does is enough for me to think she cant handle more.

      Make sense?

      If you’re really serious about moving on up,
      a) try getting involved, if even on the periphery of projects that relate to what you want to do
      b) make sure you’re rocking the current stuff

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        I don’t mean this to be snarky in any way, but your response is exactly what I feel like I’m currently dealing with/fear that I’m going up against. It’s exactly what I was asking for advice to counteract. Totally don’t mean it as an attack (in reality, this IS the common sentiment).

        I will never knock it out of the park as an admin, b/c I’m not suited for that type of work. I do the absolute best that I can, and I’ve developed so many work arounds for the things I naturally struggle with. Doesn’t matter – I will never be a rockstar admin.

        That said I do believe that I will kill it at the stuff I’d like to be doing. I do take on some “analyst” level responsibilities and I nail those – I’ve received feedback confirming this from both peers and managers. However, when it comes to promotions I feel like I’m looked at holistically and the thought process isn’t “Sunshine excels at the projects that teapot analysts do, we should move her into a teapot analyst role” its more “Sunshine hasn’t mastered the role that she’s currently in” and I’m really struggling to counteract that. Same thing when I apply outside the company – people can’t quite seem to get past my title (though I’m always updating my resume with any analyst-specific work/projects I can get my greedy little hands on).

        I just wish there were a way to get hiring managers to see past what I am currently doing and see the potential that I have (based on the analyst/higher level projects that I have done). But I realize now I’m getting into serious whiny territory…

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I think you might have to move jobs. That way you can big up any transferable skills and not just be seen through the admin lens.

    6. Simone R*

      Is this something you feel based on internal or external comments? I’m particularly hard on myself and have gone to bosses before worried that I’m struggling and they think I’m doing fine, and I’ve also had coworkers think that I’m a rockstar when I feel like I’m perfectly average. Can you get some feedback from colleagues or superiors to really figure out where you stand or what you might have to do to improve? It might be smaller than you think!

    7. JanetM*

      Can you look into professional development as a way of indicating your interest? Early this spring I asked about taking a project management course because it sounded interesting and would be useful in working on some of my department’s projects. Two weeks later (before the course even started!), I was asked to take on a project management position as a temporary assignment.

      I don’t think it’s usually that easy, but showing an interest and doing the work could help.

  22. Kim Possible*

    Had a rather odd encounter with my boss earlier this week.

    I was out of the office Wednesday morning with a migraine (I don’t get them often, but they’re absolutely awful when I do!) Anyway, I got to the office around noon. My boss was in a meeting all morning, and arrived at the office about 30 minutes after I did. Without saying a word, he strides over to my desk, and puts his hand on my forehead, as if checking for a fever.

    He did proceed to ask me how I was feeling, but then followed it up with, “my wife gets migraines all the time, but they’re related to her menstrual cycle. I joke with her that she won’t have to worry about that for long now that she’s 55 years old!”

    Maybe some people would have been phased, but it just felt weird all around to me (the feeling my forehead before speaking a word, talking about his wife’s period). He’s a nice guy and great boss, just an odd moment!

    1. Gov Worker*

      For some reason this made me laugh. Depending on the sort of relationship you have with your manager, if mine did that to me it would be funny.

      I appreciate that something like this isn’t funny to everyone and some would find it rude/invasive of privacy.

      1. Kim Possible*

        Haha, I actually did chuckle after it happened. I really wasn’t offended, it was more like a ‘hah, well that was weird!’ chuckle.

    2. Deschain*

      I wouldn’t have thought it rude (assuming I had a good relationship with my boss)–probably weird, though; but when I get migraines, my head (and hair) is sensitive to touch for days (including the feel of my feather pillow), so I probably would’ve burst into tears from the pain. I’d advise hands off for anyone with head pain! =)

    3. Chaordic One*

      It was a dumb thing to say and do, but if he’s an otherwise decent boss, I’d let it go. But, yeah, it was weird.

  23. I Liked This Project - A lot*

    I recently completed a long term project at work that I really, really loved. I think I could see myself doing this type of work long term but…I have no idea what job this would be.

    My duties involved taking customer data (names, emails, addresses) and setting a standard for how they would be entered, updating each entry to meet that standard and then organizing them (all Tea Pot USA addresses grouped under a single address) and creating deep hierarchies (Chocolate Teapot Department under Tea Pot USA and Dark Chocolate Teapot Lab under Chocolate Teapot Department, etc). I worked with our sales and marketing teams but ultimately I was in charge of the researching of information and updating of the data.

    So I guess my question is uh….what jobs do this and how can I do more of it?

    1. Rincat*

      This sounds like the type of work done by functional consultants for software vendors. Like, you would work for Microsoft on a particular program, and be part of the implementation team responsible for helping a company who purchased it get the software set up. The technical team would go in first and do the installs and technical configuration, and then you’d come in and work on the application configuration and business/work flow processes with the end users. They call these roles solutions engineer, customer success consultant/manager, etc. Things with “solutions” and “customer success” and “functional” in the title. Business analysts and process experts also do this type of work.

      To get one of those jobs, I’d start looking at various tech companies and browsing the job postings and see if anything jumps out at you. Even if you don’t find a job you’d like to apply for, you can get more of a sense of what’s out there.

    2. random lurker*

      Sounds like you’re into databases – data management / database administration / data engineering would be some things to look into. Coursera has at least one class on good database practices; you could check out something like that to get a feel for the flavor, and start finding other resources through the forums and such. Good luck!

    3. amysee*

      Membership-based trade associations, especially big ones, could make use of your skills. Nonprofits do similar research and tracking of donor prospects, though you may have to look to fundraising consultancies to find positions that do this database work close to full time.

      Another thought is media monitoring companies (Burrells Luce, Cision…). They all build and maintain databases of reporters, which require constant updating due to industry turnover and I assume the research/database update isn’t fully automated.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      We have people who do this with our CRM (customer relations management, possibly?) database.

  24. Ash (the other one)*

    Ha. I guess the whole “Lean In” thing really is true.

    After the last round of promotions at my org (we see who gets what) I decided it was time to ask my manager when I could go up for promotion to the next rung on the ladder. I went through and prepared my justification based on the level descriptions and was prepared with all of that information. But, when I said “I feel like I’m already doing the work of a Senior Teapot Developer” she said “yes, you are, go up for promotion.” Promotions only happen in June and December so I’ll have to wait, but I kind of feel like if I didn’t say anything and take initiative I wouldn’t go up for it.

    So, lean in it is…

  25. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Cheese-Block eating coworker is…still doing it. I asked if he didn’t want to refrigerate his cheese; he cheerfully said no, because he eats it in time. Guys, he is BITING RIGHT OFF a block of cheese and eating one every day. It’s worse than I thought.

    The issue with him and cheese that causes me to feel sick is precisely HOW he eats it. So I’m still trying to think of a kind way to say “your eating food in that way is making me feel sick.”

    I already have nausea a lot, probably from reflux or stuff like that, so I think the thing to do might be HR.

    2. President Porpoise*

      His dedication to the God of Cheese is most mighty. Does he sit next to you? Maybe you could get him a cheese knife/covered plate set as a present for his desk.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Yes, next to me, on the left- but a whiteboard with contact info and work instructions is ALSO on the left. So when I frequently look at that, I also get an eyeful.

    3. self employed*

      Haven’t seen mention of this issue, but I have a hard time believing that HR would get involved and tell him to, like, slice his cheese. Can you address it directly?

      2. ToodieCat*

        It would be hard to go to HR and ask them to ask someone to cut the cheese.
        Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Cheese block guy cracks me up. As someone who has some very weird food reactions, I feel you. I hate breakfast burritos. The very thought of them, for whatever reason, grosses me out beyond belief. But if I go to brunch and that’s what someone has ordered, what can I do but try not to watch them eat this thing that makes me want to puke?

      I think you have two options: 1) You can ask him if it’s possible for him to move the cheese out of your line of sight because it grosses you out, or 2) You can just not look over at him and create a mental block where he and his cheese is concerned.

      I don’t think HR is going to be able to help you here. It’s not really their job to police how people eat their food.

      1. Emi.*

        Yeah, this. Wouldn’t you be irked if HR told you to eat your food differently? But I do think you could ask him to cut it up, as “I have a weird hangup about this; could you do me a favor?” thing.

      2. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        To clarify, I mean that Cheese Guy is eating up to two POUNDS of cheese a day by biting straight into 12-16 ounce blocks, of the kind you usually slice for sandwiches. It’s the caveman-eating and the thought of eating that much cheese at once that turns my stomach.

        1. Emi.*

          But it clearly doesn’t turn his stomach, and that’s the stomach the cheese is landing in. Look away.

        2. NaoNao*

          I genuinely sympathize, however this is also kinda my dream. I love cheese. Puttin’ away 2 pounds a day would be a breeze for me if I let myself. Heh.
          My advice is to perhaps buy him the pre-sliced version of his Cheese of Choice and then be like “It lasts longer this way!” or something?
          Other: put up a fringe of plants, books, lamps, or doohickeys between you
          Take your anti nausea meds or prep before venturing near him
          If possible, do most work out of his sight line

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would be extremely put out if HR came to me about the way I eat my food at my own desk. You can try to ask him to cut it up, telling him you have a weird hang-up, but really, this is something you have to address on your own first.

    7. fposte*

      Unfortunately, I think this one is on you to work around. Taking bites of food is a solid and approved way of eating it, and it’s absolutely true that you don’t need to refrigerate cheese particularly swiftly. It seems not to be an odor thing where it’s inescapable; it’s something that can be cured by your looking away, and if you came to me as a manager about this, that’s what I’d tell you to do.

      1. Lora*

        I cracked up laughing at this: Taking bites of food is a solid and approved way of eating it

        Yeah, I kinda think you’re going to have to deal. If one of my employees complained about how someone ate their snack of choice, at their own desk in their own space, I’d tell them that I was very sorry to hear that and thank you for sharing but unfortunately life is not fair and we can’t always get what we want.

        1. A.*

          If someone complained to me about the way a person was eating, I would think they did not have enough work to do.

    8. Andy*

      This is not a Cheese Guy problem, hon. this is a you problem. Nothing that Cheese Guy is doing is unavoidable by you, Non-Cheese Person.

    10. Artemesia*

      Do you want to be the anecdote at the next HR convention ‘You’ll never believe this, we had someone complain about how someone eats cheese!!’

      It may be annoying but it really is not a case for HR unless there are clients involved who might be put off by it.

    11. Manders*

      Is there any way to move away from him so you’re not constantly seeing and smelling this situation? “I’m having problems with nausea and the smell of cheese is making me barf” is a totally valid reason to ask for a different desk.

      I have to admit, if I shed all my inhibitions and decided to live life on the edge, snarfing entire blocks of cheese would definitely become a part of my lifestyle. Shine on, you cheesy diamond.

    12. A.*

      Why would you go to HR because you do not like the way someone eats? Where do we draw the line? I do not like soda and my former coworker used to drink two litters of cola a day at this desk. He drank directly from the bottle throughout the day. Can I go to HR to complain?

    13. LabTech*

      I don’t have advice, but I can sympathize. My officemate will eat loud crunchy foods. Constantly. In the loudest, crunchiest, didn’t-realize-humans-could-make-those-sounds sort of way, usually alternative between carrot sticks (which you’d think were firecrackers with how loudly he manages to make them snap), and green bell peppers (plural!), which he eats by biting into it like an apple.

      It’s the sort of thing that seems ridiculous to get incandescently angry about, but after a full year of that, and icy silence (He blatantly ignores me when I say good morning, and only talks to me to insist I start following some ridiculous rule he just made up for our office.), I’m ready to go full on ape shit, pounding-chest, screaming obscenities and nonsense at him whenever he whips out the jumbo sized bag of carrot sticks. Thankfully my last day is coming up soon…

    14. Not So NewReader*

      And he is not having problems with constipation?
      I think I would just know that time is on my side. Tick-tock. Another bite of cheese, tick-tock.
      I cannot see how a person can eat two pounds of cheese every day and be well.

      Meanwhile, what do you do to distract yourself from this? I would line up several ideas so that when I caught myself thinking about Annoying Habit, I had a redirect ready for me to use.

    15. Skye*

      I sympathize – the sound of other people eating bothers me to the point point where I have left the room before, and have had to just deal with it when leaving was not an option. But that bothering me is on me to deal with, not them. Best you can do is find something to distract yourself with and trying not to let yourself get worked up about it in the moment.

    16. Anxa*

      I don’t think you can much about this. People eat yogurt at there desks where I work and I have had to walk out of the room several times; I find it absolutely grotesque. Even with a known-to-be-gross food like yogurt it seems like it’s up to me to leave, not them to find somewhere else to eat.

    17. thisisaseriousissue?*

      You probably do stuff which annoys him, too. Just leave him to eat his cheese. First world problems. There are worse things to worry about. Sheesh.

  26. Myrin*

    I’m one of 20 people who get to take part in a week-long conference in September that’s quite highly regarded in my field and the main organiser – who, btw, writes these really informative, clear emails that have made the whole process super transparent from the very beginning and seems like a lovely guy who really cares about making this as good for the participants as possible – not only sent out an email today with the week’s program and it sounds a-ma-zing!

    No, he also sent me a message yesterday about a special request I made early on:

    I make this really grating noise when I sleep. I’ve been doing this all my life and it’s always been hugely embarrassing whenever I had a sleepover or just slept in the vicinity of someone anywhere 1. because it’s just mortifying and 2. because NO ONE ELSE CAN SLEEP THROUGH IT. It’s horrible.

    So while I was a bit embarrassed about it, I (with the help of AAM wording which dealt with a similar situation) told the organisers about it because we would actually be put into rooms in pairs or in threes and the situation would basically be untenable for both me and my roommate. And to my complete surprise, I got an email yesterday where the organiser told me that they’d booked a twin room for me to use by myself. Yay! Has the additional advantage of my not having to deal with a roommate after already having dealt with them for a whole day but really, I’m mostly glad I don’t have to get in an embarrassing and them in a sleepless situation.

    (I also initially offered to pay extra for a room of my own but they’ve just decided that they’ll cover the expenses despite this special treatment, something I’m extremely happy about.)

    It starts on 17th September and I’m so looking forward to the whole thing!

    1. TheMonkey*

      Oh, that’s great! It must be a huge relief not to have that hanging over your head! And kudos to the main organizer for taking your concerns to heart.

    2. Artemesia*

      None of my business but the only way I can imagine a ‘grating noise’ is teeth grinding. If so, have you worked with your dentist to get an appropriate appliance so you don’t ruin your teeth and jaw? I ended up just getting an OTC thing which is cheap and works great for me; my daughter got a dentist made one which was expensive but works for her.

      1. Myrin*

        It has nothing to do with my teeth (incidentally, I was at the dentist’s last Monday because of general tension in my upper body and the orthopaedist said I should have my jaw/joints in the face checked out; the dentist confirmed that I don’t grind my teeth, but I knew that already; I’ll be getting an appliace next week that’ll help with the tension in my jaw regardless).

        It’s a whining, moaning, nasal sound I produce in intervals but hold for as long as my breath will last. I’ve been doing it literally all my life – my mum said I was about two weeks old when she first heard it and she thought I was dying. It’s something I use to relax – which I know because I’m sometimes tempted to do it while I’m awake but thankfully I can always stop myself – but no one’s ever been able to figure out where it comes from (I’d probably have to go to a sleep clinic for that) and I know of only one other person who does it and only because it was the sister of my paediatrician when I was a baby whom my mum first consulted about it. It’s super loud – much louder than teeth grinding – and because of its duration more grating than snoring, too (as I’m told by anyone who’s ever had the pleasure of sleeping near me) – the only way I could share a room with someone would be if they were deaf.

          1. Myrin*

            I’m pretty sure it isn’t – I have literally none of the symptoms I see listed on several different sites and, as I said, I sometimes have the urge to do it even while awake – but I’m pretty set on having someone look into it one day.

        3. Artemesia*

          It was the phrase ‘grating’ that led me to falsely assume — I see you mean it in its other meaning of ‘annoying.’ That is a bummer and I am glad the conference people were so understanding about it.

    1. Murphy*

      All the time. I’m in higher ed. I’m non-faculty staff, so I don’t have one myself, but I see them/request them from faculty all the time.

    3. Kate*

      Yep! I used a CV when I was in academia/higher ed. I’m actually having trouble converting my CV to a resume because my CV had such a heavy focus on publications and presentations which are less important (though not completely unimportant) in my current role. It’s breaking my heart not to list them.

      1. Artemesia*

        When I have seen CVs translated to resumes, it is common to list books but then have a line that says 35 refereed journal publications and another with 83 professional conference presentations etc.

        My daughter doesn’t work in academia but her books always go on her resume and because they are in her professional domain add to her evidence of expertise. (if they were about cats or crocheting, they probably wouldn’t be listed of course)

        1. Kate*

          Thanks! I only have journal articles, so I was leaning towards, as you said, listing the number of pubs and presentations in my previous roles, or even just stating that I have published and presented. I also made a complete field change when I took this position, so the content of my previous work is pretty irrelevant to my current field. But writing documentation and presenting to customers is SUPER relevant to my field, which is why I don’t want to leave them off completely.

          1. Artemesia*

            Yeah I would definitely include your wide experience with conference presentations if presenting is part of the new gigs you are seeking, even on another topic. Same with the writing.

    4. NaoNao*

      Yes, in higher ed and related institutions (research lab, etc). Or I guess if you’re applying to an ultra high profile job like with the U.N. or something.
      Otherwise it’s usually resume.

    5. JanetM*

      CV is the preferred term in academia (for faculty, not staff; staff have resumes), and I think (but could be wrong) it’s used more or less interchangeably with resume in Europe.

  28. Mab*

    Tell me your strategies for shutting down food and weight talk in the office.

    Here’s what I’ve done:
    -not replied to comments about my eating or not eating, and what the food is or isn’t
    -changed the subject from comments about my weight
    -specifically said, “I don’t like food and weight talk and would prefer not to discuss it at work regardless.”

    I mean, I don’t know how much more clear I can be.

    2. Professional Shopper*

      I now only say:

      “Why would you ask that?” (hopefully then they will talk about their stuff and not me anymore)
      “That’s not very interesting, what about blah blah blah.”
      “Oh, were you talking to me?” (Esp if anyone spoke to me while I was eating).

      Because I once snapped at an office admin who said something about the healthiness of my lunch, “Are you my ex-boyfriend–I keep expecting you to passive aggressively offer me a salad.” I think the rumor mill when into overdrive on that one.

    3. fposte*

      The food talk around my workplace tends to be pretty cheerful and benign and almost never about weight, so I don’t feel the need to shut it down. If it goes worryingly beyond the “Mm, that smells good” I generally say brightly and firmly “I just eat what I like!” and that seems to end the discussion.

    4. Argh!*

      I finally lost it with my local food nazi and yelled “You’re not my doctor it’s none of your business what I eat!” because she was totally clueless about manners and really believed she could help me despite never having been a pound overweight herself during her whole life. Seriously? How do people get to be like that?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Comments about your weight? Really?

      “We aren’t discussing my body, right? We don’t talk about people’s bodies here because it’s personal, right?”

      “Look, it’s fine if you want to talk about your own weight. But other people’s weight is a bit personal for the workplace.”

      “I have asked nicely and I don’t know how else to say this. Please stop talking about my weight.”

      “Okay. I have to say this directly. My weight is off the table for discussion.”

      1. Mab*

        Yep. From comments about what I’m eating, when and how much, to my size.

        I say all these things. No change.

  29. Gov Worker*

    How do you deal with miserable people in the office or better yet, one that you have to sit opposite and no partition is allowed.

      1. Gov Worker*

        I would love to but unfortunately the type of work that I do doesn’t allow that sort of luxury.

      1. kbeers0su*

        This made me flashback to elementary school where we used to take two folders and set them up to make a little screen in front of and on both sides of our desks while we took tests. And then we would sort of slouch down to hide ourselves behind them. Would that be totally weird to do in the workplace?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          So she has basically told you she is a budding workplace bully.

          Decide right now that she will never make you cry.
          When she does say something nasty, point blank tell her, “That was uncalled for.” Or, “That’s out of line.”
          She has already shown you that she needs the direct approach where you put your foot down. Do not be afraid to use the direct approach.

          On calmer days, kill her with kindness. It might take a year or longer to see any results, if ever. What is really important it to be consistent with kindness. When she is over the line, then tell her.

          See after a while, these people can wear on us for an unexpected reason. We turn ourselves into someone we don’t like because we think we have to get ugly to deal with their ugly. Don’t start down this road, it’s wildly unsatisfying at best.

          When she gets nasty, keep a flat and matter of fact voice. If she repeats an insult then you repeat what you said, “Jane, I have already told you that comment is over the line and not necessary.” There I something about saying “I have already told you” or “We have already discussed this” that people find jarring. It can be effective in stopping them.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      I’ve told my boss to take the spiral of negativity else where before.
      Head phones are good too.

    6. Argh!*

      Speakers. Or accidentally leave your headphones at the loudest setting sitting on your desk. Then put “It’s a small small world” on loop and walk away.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      I’ve witnessed someone shut one down with: “Wow, it really happens to you doesn’t it?”

      I got one moaning colleague to stop trying to moan to me by saying: “Thanks for letting me know but that’s not a problem for me,” or “Thanks but I don’t need to discuss that,” until she gave up and moaned at someone else.

      1. Artemesia*

        People who are negative and bitch and whine all the time often do it out of habit and your first phrase there really brings it to the forefront of awareness. If someone said that to me, I’d be embarrassed but would probably rethink how negative I am being. I sometimes fall into this and the occasional comment does bring me up short. No one should have to listen to constant complaining.

  30. Gaia*

    I am a manager in a department with four other managers that all report to a Department Head. I recently found out one of our other managers is job searching and interviewing actively. Losing him will be a major blow to the department but I understand why he wants to go. For what it is worth, I found out because he asked me to be a reference for him as he thinks he is a finalist for a few positions.

    Do I have any obligation, as a manager, to inform my department head that I am fairly sure another manager is leaving soon?

    1. Alice*

      No. Yes, he may get this job offer and accept it, but also he may not. And all of us are one car accident/lottery ticket away from never coming back to work.
      If you wanted to bring up to your department head the idea that your department doesn’t have enough redundancy to deal with surprises, that would be one thing. But don’t out your colleague as job-searching.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Nope, no, absolutely not, please don’t. He came to you for help and presumably in confidence. Just wait and see what happens if/when he decides to leave, and you don’t have to discuss your part in this at all.

    3. Artemesia*

      It is monstrous to undermine someone else like this. Imagine it were you and you ended up not taking the other job and now you were not getting promotions or were first in line for rifs. This is a totally unethical thing to do.

      1. Gaia*

        While I would normally agree, I think there is a bit of an ethical issue on both sides. As a manager, I have an obligation to assist in the smooth functioning of our department. This particular person has taken on a large and specialized area and because it is new to us he is the only one trained in this area. In our industry notice is short. Given this and that our mutual boss is known for being very reasonable about these things it presents an interesting question to my mind.

        2. Sole*

          I think, ethical obligations speaking, that if this is information that you are personally required to act on (as in begin advertising for the job opening, interviewing replacements, creating transition plans, etc.) than it would be reasonably fair to bring the info to your mutual boss. If you need to move on it, it would be naive of your coworker to think you would wait. However, if the information doesn’t require your action – even if it affects your department/work – going to your boss outside of your coworker’s knowledge is a really terrible move. No matter how reasonable your boss is known to be, it’s your coworker’s decision when/how to notify their current employer of their resignation. If it even happens at all.

          If the area is specialized, and he’s the only one trained, that’s on the boss to diversity knowledge among multiple managers – people come and go, and if the industry is moving it’s important to anticipate the need to adapt.

          1. Gaia*

            It isn’t really possible to have more than one person trained on this at a time. The way it goes in our industry is person X is trained leading up to Event Y during which it is unheard of for Person X to leave. After Event Y others are trained up until the next cycle when a new Person X is trained and so on and so forth.

        3. Undine*

          You could go back to him and brainstorm ways to get someone else training on this area without spilling the beans. It would be way more innocent coming from you — “do you think someone could start shadowing Wakeen? I think Wilhelmina might be interested.” But don’t betray his confidence without talking to him first.

          1. Gaia*

            Unfortunately it isn’t a matter of shadowing. It would require extensive outsourced training which is fine and what we’ll ultimately do but given the timing this will leave things screeching to a halt. These events happen at regular intervals and, in our industry, people just don’t leave when this is going on (think a campaign manager leaving a campaign in late October).

            1. Observer*

              Either there is something going on in CoWorker’s life that you (and your boss) know about, and they should be preparing for it. Or there is something about CW’s working conditions that make the job untenable. That’s on the employer as well.

              Either way, it means that this is NOT your problem to solve.

        4. Observer*

          So? Your obligation to help the smooth running of the organization has limits. Being the person who reports other people’s job searches doesn’t sound like it’s part of your job, and you don’t explain why you think it should be.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      No. No obligation.

      And if any boss says you have an obligation, nod and go about your day.

    5. Observer*

      Why do you think you have an obligation to inform your manager?

      Also, what do you think you will accomplish by informing your manager?

  31. Fishcakes*

    My co-workers chat non-stop about personal topics and today I just can’t handle it. It’s been 3 hours of loud, inane chatter about umbrellas and nail polish and I am ready to explode.

    Time for a walk!

    1. Gov Worker*

      Ha! I work with someone who likes to take selfies of herself for about 30mins non-stop. No one says a word. Our manager doesn’t sit in the room so she’s never seen this happen. Also she’s newish to the company (about a year this girl has been here)

        2. Liane*

          Is it possible to photo-bomb with a sign that says, “Me, [New Girl], on the clock at Company”?

        3. Gov Worker*

          It really is laonful and the isnt even likeable otherwise the photoboming idea sounds hilarious.

          Lets just say me and this girl are Frienemies.

          We do not get along at all.

  32. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

    I work in a college library. We recently had a job opening, and I have a friend/friendly acquaintance from a former job who works in a public library. His wife is also a friend/FA.

    They interviewed him along with two other people. Yesterday they offered the job to someone, who turned it down. Then they offered it to someone else–not my friend. Obviously he is at the very bottom of the list. In the meantime, both he and his wife are emailing me, fishing around for information on the decision-making process, etc.

    My question is: Should I ask the hiring team (my boss, his boss and the dean of the library) why they didn’t hire my friend? I surely hope nothing reflects badly on me. My DH says I should not ask them anything about it. Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      I agree that you shouldn’t ask. Also, your friend and his wife shouldn’t be emailing you about it like that.

      1. Artemesia*

        Don’t ask. It is understandable that the friend is fishing around, but you need to be ‘don’t know, not part of the process, it is a mystery to me’ about it and never let on that you know any more.

        1. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

          Thanks! Yes, that is a good approach.
          I feel kind of badly, overall. I know he really wanted the job and needs the money badly.

          1. Jessica*

            Yeah, but it would be entirely truthful for you to say, “Sorry, I’m not involved in the hiring process!” and leave it at that.

      1. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

        Just a P.S. on this one: I found out why they didn’t hire him. He was too “schmoozy.” Whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. I heard it through the grapevine.

  33. KMB213*

    Mild sexual harassment at work – how do you deal with it?

    I don’t want to get in to too much detail, but I’m the only woman in a small workplace. There’s no HR to report to and I think it’s the type of harassment that would be difficult to prove (comments about porn, about women’s bodies, about sex in general, etc.). I’m actively looking for a new job, but does anyone have any coping mechanisms that have been successful in similar situations? (Quitting without a new job is not an option.)

    1. afiendishthingy*

      Are you comfortable/have you tried addressing it directly? “Hey, I’m trying to work so could you not talk about porn right now?” etc

      1. KMB213*

        I’ve kind of been avoiding addressing it directly because I am a little uncomfortable doing so, but that may be the best strategy. Getting over that discomfort will probably be good for me in the long run, too! Thanks!

    2. Snark*

      “I’m not willing to discuss anything related to sex at work. Please stop and never bring that up with me again.”

      1. Snark*

        “I’m sure you recall my asking you to never bring sexual topics up with me again, and that request still stands.”

        1. KMB213*

          Thanks for the wording – I’ve generally just changed the subject (and, thankfully, there are a few other employees who have done the same, rather than participating), but addressing it more directly is probably a better solution.

    3. Gaia*

      Comments about porn, women’s bodies and sex in general is not “mild” sexual harassment. It is sexual harassment and it has no business in the workplace. I would 1. tell them directly to stop 2. report it to my manager 2(b) if my manager was the one doing it, I would report it to the next level up 2(b)(1) if it was the owner, I’d see about a report to the state labor board.

      This crap is disgusting. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it. People need to grow the hell up.

      1. fposte*

        Though if it’s small as in “under 15 employees,” it’s not covered by federal discrimination and in most states wouldn’t be either.

      2. KMB213*

        Sadly, it’s mild compared to what I’ve experienced before and it’s relatively infrequent – maybe one-two comments a week, only when the owner is in town (which is about half of the year).

        I guess reporting it to the state labor board is my only option (it’s my manager, who is also the owner), but, unfortunately, as fposte said, it may not be covered (we do have fewer than 15 employees). I also worry that it won’t be provable and reporting will result in me losing my job – unfortunately, I’m financially responsible for myself and another person, so not working for more than two months or so is not an option. I know I can’t technically be fired for filing a complaint, but, like everyone, my performance is not perfect at all times – I’m certain they could find another reason to fire me.

        I will look into the state labor board, but I just don’t think it’s a realistic option. Thanks for the advice and sympathy, though!

        1. Gaia*

          Even if it isn’t actionable by the labor board, they can provide advice. Good luck and if you haven’t already, start job searching. You don’t deserve to endure this.

          1. KMB213*

            Thank you! I am definitely actively searching – I’ve had a few phone screens and one in-person interview so far. Also a promising lunch with a long-time contact (started as a professional contact, but is now a friend, as well). So, fingers crossed!

    4. neverjaunty*

      “Change of subject, please, gentlemen?”

      “Wow, TMI.”

      Or, if you want to play hardball, start visibly snickering to yourself when they say something about sex or women’s bodies. When they ask you what’s up tell them “Nah, I wouldn’t want to say anything that would make you guys feel terrible” and refuse to elaborate.

      1. KMB213*

        I like the second strategy! I may try the first as well – I generally change the subject, but don’t state that I am changing the subject/would like to change the subject (if that makes sense). Luckily, it makes at least one other employee uncomfortable, as he never contributes and often changes the subject, as well.

      2. Lora*

        You are within your rights to say, “knock it off, you are being gross, nobody here wants to listen to what you do with your special private time” and you don’t even have to be polite.

        Alternatives include, “ew, what the heck is wrong with you, talking about that crap at work”, “talking about something else right now” and “SO HOW ABOUT THAT SPORTSBALL TEAM”.

        I’ve also been known to stare in horror and say, “thank god I don’t have to share a bathroom with you people” “I am judging you right now” “WHAT THE HELL I’M TRYING TO EAT” “were you raised by WOLVES? Jesus!”

      3. Atomic Orange*

        i’m a woman working in a male dominated industry… and i’ve definitely played hardball while at a previous company. probably shouldn’t have… but hey it worked. for example i’ve piped in and said something like: “hey guys, don’t leave me out of the convo here. let’s talk about d***s.” And when they expressed proper amount of disgust at the topic, I said “so you can dish it but can’t take it?” which shut them up pretty quick.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          I’m a little bit in love with you right now.

          But yeah direct and matching the crass is usually effective.
          Things I’ve used in the past:
          “Seriously, you’re talking about THAT at work?”
          “New subject please.”
          “Knock it off.”
          “Yeah, I really don’t need to hear THAT.”

          1. Emi.*

            When I’ve tried it, directly matching the crass just escalates things. How do you prevent that?

            1. Atomic Orange*

              I think it depends on the men. The guys I worked with would occasionally get crass, but they weren’t doing it to purposely make me uncomfortable… they were doing it because they forgot I was there and a woman and that it was inappropriate. I also had a good working relationship with them in general, and they respected my work. So when I matched their crassness, they could tell I was calling them out without explicitly calling them out. Which gave them an opportunity to check their behaviour, and we all move forward without any feelings or egos being hurt. But this strategy wouldn’t work for every group of men. If they are purposely doing it just to antagonize you, then this probably wouldn’t work. And you’ll just have to be firm and direct and tell them to stop.

          2. Atomic Orange*

            Hahaha another one I used was “Omg guyyyys, can we talk about how dreeeamy XXX (random actor, model, or athlete ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) is? Look at his eyes. Is that a 10 pack???? guuuyyyys loook!!! I just send you links. Are you looking yet? Discuuuusss!!!”

            Surprisingly though… there were a few occasions when we actually did end up discussing the ‘dreamy’ levels of certain actors or athletes.

    5. Emi.*

      Have you addressed it directly? I was once in a research group with guys who used a lot of misogynistic language. Once we were hanging out in the evening and I was feeling braver than usual (alcohol may have been involved), and I interrupted with “Can we not use that word, please?” in a calm but firm tone at about 120% normal volume. They looked sort of surprised, and one of them said “What do you prefer, vagina?” I said “I prefer that part of my body not be used as an insult.” And they did cut it out. It seemed like it had never occurred to them that it would bother anyone.

      I’ve also found “Why are you talking about this at work? Please stop!” to be effective.

      1. KMB213*

        I’ve typically just changed the subject, but I will try addressing it directly the next time it comes up. Thanks!

    6. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. I hope you find a much better job soon.

      As with a lot of bullying, they’re probably doing it because they enjoy making you uncomfortable. There’s a good chance that the more you can stay calm and address it in a calm, flat tone of voice, they sooner they’ll get bored and move on.

      1. KMB213*

        Thanks! I swear sometimes that my boss/the company owner (the main culprit) is just clueless as to proper etiquette, but he previously worked for two huge companies, so there’s no chance that he hasn’t gone through extensive sexual harassment training. So, I’m probably just being too generous.

    7. Attie*

      One of my coworkers kept making the same joke about my reproductive system every time I talked about hatching eggs in pokemon go (not the only thing, but playing pokemon go is a big group activity because a bunch of us go hiking together every week so it came up a lot). I eventually returned a ‘joke’ (in tone but not really in content) about sending him to the EOO for remedial sexual harassment training, and he was absolutely flabbergasted that it would count! I just said “unwelcome comments of a sexual nature, lol” and since then he’s toned it down considerably. Phew!

    9. SQL Coder Cat*

      Also, if you can pull it off, I’ve found the Martin Shkrei smirk (you know the one, the ‘Aww, aren’t you cute, trying to make me think you matter.’ one) during these conversations really makes guys like this uncomfortable. You need to be able to pull off the ‘I’m judging you and it’s not going so well for you’ attitude though.

  34. Alice*

    Our broken stair got fixed!
    Long version: our team’s “broken stair” was a person seconded to our department. I don’t know how it happened, but that person has gone somewhere else in our (very large) org, and the replacement seems great.
    Good things happen — don’t give up hope!

  35. Humanities professor*

    I am a college professor in the humanities at a large university, and I have no work experience outside of academia, except some part-time summer jobs from my high school years. I have two questions about how best to help my students transition from student to worker:

    1. As a faculty member and official or unofficial advisor, I am often asked by students to give feedback about their career choices. While I feel equipped to give advice about pursuing graduate studies, most of the students at my current institution plan to enter the workforce directly, about which I have little advice to give. What sort of advice should I be giving my students to help prepare them for the working world, or to help them think about the transition from student to worker? What was the best, most practical advice you received from faculty while you were in college?

    2. In my former institution, I was never asked to write recommendation letters for anything but graduate school. Advice for letter-writing in this context stresses that you should never agree to be a reference unless you can unequivocally give the highest praise or rankings to the student, and typically my reference letters are two pages of waxing lyrical about a given student’s writing, research, class performance, potential for graduate study, etc. I have turned down students in the past when I felt I could not do this. Here, however, few of my students will be pursuing graduate study. I do not know how to write a recommendation letter for anything but graduate study. I also fear that the high standards (i.e., don’t write for any but your very top students) means that many students would be unable to find any recommenders. What should I put into recommendations for students not pursuing graduate study? Should I agree to be a reference for mid- or low-performing students, and, if so, what can I say that would be a fair reference? This is complicated by online forms that sometimes ask you to rank students by whether they fall into the top 50%, 10%, 5%, 1% and .1% of students you have worked with, in which case honesty (ranking only in top 50% or in the bottom 50%) would, I imagine, lead to immediate rejection, and is another point in favor of declining to be a reference.

    What advice should this college professor be giving her students as they enter the working world? And what are the best practices for being a reference for students not pursuing graduate study?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      1. The best class I ever had in graduate school was taught by the ED of a very well-known nonprofit in my city. When he assigned us papers, they were not allowed to be longer than two-pages, double spaced. If even one word spilled over to a third page, he would throw it out. Concision is important in business communications, and often the opposite of what students have been used to in academic writing. The most important piece of data or action item goes first so that the email recipient knows right away what the point of your message is. If they want additional information, they will ask for it.

      2. Recommendation letters for jobs are very uncommon, so I wouldn’t worry too much about having to write a letter for those cases. I would only agree to be a reference for students that you can honestly vouch for (this has the added benefit of reducing the amount of time you will spend in giving references).

    2. kbeers0su*

      Two thoughts:
      1) If you’re not a regular reader of AAM, read through some of her key articles that talk about basic things that people need to be able to do in the workforce. I.e. be on time, do what they say they’re going to do, be easy to work with, etc. Find a way to incorporate this information into what you do as an instructor- whether in class or in feedback to students on their assignments.
      2) Talk to your campus Career Center (or equivalent) and ask them for their input. Especially given that you’re in a particular field, they may have great advice for you/your students based on the jobs that they know most students from that field end up getting.

      1. Liane*

        The university Career Center might not be a good resource. Alison has written a lot about how much bad (or at least outdated) advice is being put out by many of them. If Humanities prof decides to talk with them, she should compare the advice to AAM’s so as to get a feel for how up-to-date and realistic their suggestions are.
        If the Career Center is good, your students are in luck!

    3. Amtelope*

      It’s likely that students who are pursuing jobs rather than graduate school will want you to serve as a reference rather than give them a letter of recommendation. I think you can be a good reference for a mid-performing student if there are things about their performance you can legitimately praise — “worked hard, paid attention in class, turned in assignments on time, and took advantage of feedback on assignments to improve their performance” may be a useful reference even if the student didn’t get an A in your class.

    4. Lora*

      1. The best thing to do I think is to help them find a professional association in the field they want to enter. It’s going to vary so much from field to field that whatever advice is applicable to one job will be the exact opposite of good advice for another (e.g. accounting vs marketing, sales vs STEM). Professional associations usually have junior versions for college students which are geared towards this sort of thing.

      Another way you could help them is to get them thinking about lifestyle vs the day to day part of the job. For example, engineering is seen as a steady, fairly uneventful job, but in real life many engineers travel a lot for work and work on a series of short term projects doing all kinds of things that can explode more often than a Michael Bay movie.

      2. Yeah, we don’t really do the letters thing in the US. When we call references (and we almost always telephone) it’s to ask, “did this person actually work here, in the role they said they did, and what did you personally think of them”. Generally as long as you can give a good reference you try to give one: we are fine with hearing about solid B students.

      What field are you in, and what do you teach? I mean, I wouldn’t give a reference for someone in a 400+ student general education class, only in a smaller class for upper level majors.

      1. Humanities professor*

        I teach history. In the past, I’ve had (for various reasons), a lot of pre-med students, where letters are still part of the application process. I’ve never had a class larger than about 50, so it’s not impossible to know the students vaguely, but often without knowing them very well.

        1. Lora*

          Oh noooooo the pre-meds! “please give me two extra points or I won’t get into Johns Hopkins!” arrrgh! They used to drive me bonkers.

          Ha, do you teach them the history of the labor movement and how OSHA came about and the gunfights between strikers and the Pinkertons? I never learned that stuff till I was in college, and then it was just fascinating. Now THAT would be useful, I wished for many years (and still do) that people knew why we have weekends and OSHA and so forth. So many people imagine that bureaucratic regulations spring out of thin air because The Evil Government hates John Galt or whatever. Um, no… And it really has helped in real life, because I get a lot of dumb bunnies complaining about how we shouldn’t have to pay extra for an important safety thing, and it’s nice to be able to point to the law and the history of why the law exists and say, “you may not want to but it’s not up to you.”

          Plus, there’s lots of Brilliant Economists and business people who are 100% sure they’ve got the latest and greatest idea for how to organize a company/economy/whatever, and it’s good to point to an example in history where we tried it already and it didn’t work.

          Also, the history of things that go boom is awesome and I wish I had learned more prior to grad school. The Great Molasses Flood, John Clark’s _Ignition_, the BASF plant in Oppau which became a crater in 1921 – good stuff. One of my professors was really into WWII history and he would talk for hours about how IG Farben was broken up after WWII and how the Nazis influenced modern chemistry.

    5. College Career Counselor*

      Echoing what others have said:

      1) tell them that academic writing is VERY different from writing in the workplace (clear, concise, compelling should be their goal–which means less than two pages, generally, unless otherwise specified)

      2) Have them go to career services for outcomes information on what graduates with degrees in your department have gone on to do. If your career services office doesn’t have that info (and they should), the alumni office may be helpful in this regard. Tell students to go to workshops/learn how to do informational interviewing and seek out alumni to ask questions about the field (not “can you get me an internship/job”). Use LinkedIn to keep track of your former students and their professional activities so you can refer current students to them (so much better than Facebook). Tell your students to consult career services about how best to set up their own LinkedIn profile.

      3) For the love of the flying spaghetti monster, tell them to GET AN INTERNSHIP, campus job, student leadership position, in-depth volunteer experience, summer job, research/fieldwork, etc. that demonstrates they can work, gives them some transferrable skills, and might also lead them to develop mentored relationships with professionals who can help them advance their careers as they graduate.

      4) agreed with others that most students don’t need a letter of reference for a job. Even if they think they do, they’re mostly wrong, with the exception of certain fellowships and scholarships (for which you can continue to use your graduate school recommendation criteria).

      1. Humanities professor*

        Thanks for the advice! Part of my challenge is that few of my students are in my major – they take my courses as their humanities credit, but then they want advice about a completely different field, so I usually have no clue how things work or what kind of advice applies to their chosen career path.

        1. Jesca*

          I would honestly tell them to come to this site and read read read. And yeah tell them to get out there, get a job off campus, and learn some basics of how to behave. I would definitely hit home to them how different the work world is as opposed to being/working on a college campus.

    6. Artemesia*

      You are in a good position to help students develop strong writing skills. Business writing is not creative writing and if you do teach composition or a class where it would be appropriate to add some business writing it would be a service. I taught in the social sciences and taught students to write short briefing memos (e.g. the person you are staffing is an expert in agriculture but needs to be conversant in (your policy area) so write a two page briefing memo on the recommended policy position. Of course you have to bone up on business writing. Another thing I taught students to write was press releases. And ruthlessly pruning out redundancy and adjectives even in non business writing helps improve their communication skills.

      The second thing is I would tell students that you are not well equipped to counsel them about employment outside academia but that you know that learning to write strong resumes and seeking an internship to try out a field and gain contacts, experience and decide if it is for them is wise. Most colleges have internship opportunities; encourage them. I also used to encourage my liberal arts students to take at least one basic accounting course. A person who can handle a budget is often more likely to be promotable in a non profit or small business.

      Doing service-learning projects with your class where they work in a community in a way that enhances the subject matter you are teaching may also be helpful in building their skills. I have seen English professors whose students worked on publications for non profits, tutoring with students, judging essay contests and working on capturing life stories of elderly people or immigrants. Anything where their writing is read by real people tends to improve communication skills.

      As for recommendations. Think about what you know from their work with you. Do they take initiative on class projects, are they reliable, do they contribute to class discussion, are they well prepared, do they write clearly and accurately? No one expects an English prof to know if they would be great at car sales or as administrative assistants but you do know if they have those characteristics. I also would ask any student who wants a recommendation to give you a brief email or note that identifies the job they are seeking, how your class prepared them for it and identifies extracurriculars or jobs they have had that are related. That helps you write a specific recommendation. And store those letters so you can tweak them for the next student.

    7. Candy*

      As to #1, why not refer them to Student Services? My university’s Student Services dept has tonnes of career help for students — one-on-one consultations with counselors to explore their interests and talents to create a vocational profile if they don’t know what jobs they want to do, Classroom to Career Workshops, resume help, etc etc. There’s also options for students to get specialized advice from instructors and graduates, and probably more help I’m not remembering right now

    8. Dr. Doll*

      A very useful thing I have done is put “professionalism” in my syllabus as a learning outcome in my class (which is basically an environmental science class). I spell out what it means and I include it in grading rubrics. So, I can legitimately give feedback and grades based on mastery of these skills in addition to mastering data interpretation. I couch assignments in terms of students’ professional development in both grad school and job terms. Your reading AAM to get a sense of what professionalism means will be very helpful. (Also look at the “transparency project” work out of UNLV.)

      And the most practical advice I ever received from a faculty member was during my postdoc (damn, I wish I’d gotten this far earlier): Don’t give up. When people don’t answer your emails or phone calls for weeks, if you really want something, just keep asking, not to the point of being obnoxious, but at least a few times. People are busy but they generally are happy to help if they possibly can. Ping again.

    9. Snargulfuss*

      I few people have mentioned referring students to Career Services, but I would advise you you contact the Career Services office and ask what suggestions they have. As a career advisor, I LOVE when faculty want info from me or want suggestions on how they can encourage students to be more career minded. Faculty have students’ ear so much more than we do; what you say carries weight with students (even though it probably doesn’t feel like it sometimes)! Even something simple as making quick announcements at the beginning of class about career fairs, workshops, internship programs, etc. is hugely valuable.

      1. Snargulfuss*

        Ugh, excuse the typos. Normally I wouldn’t take time and space to make this comment, but career centers and career advisors get so much shade on this site, I didn’t want my lack of correct writing to be used as more evidence against us ;)

    10. persimmon*

      I’ve written internship recommendation letters for students as a TA in the humanities. Obviously it’s easier with a top student, but I am willing to recommend any student who worked hard and had some success–and I strongly believe others should do so, students shouldn’t have to be brilliant to get a recommendation letter, as you say. What I usually do is focus on the tasks the student completed, and what she did in the process that reflected well on her. E.g., student significantly improved essay #2 in response to feedback, student asked questions in class to ensure she understood material, student successfully completed a major research assignment designed to improve her ability to find and evaluate sources, etc. Often it helps to look back at and borrow feedback already given on previous assignments. And length should be short, no more than a page. I probably would not recommend a student who did poorly without improving over time or putting in much visible effort–but I’ve yet to have a student like that ask.

    1. babblemouth*

      Probably not mentioned in the article: the bits between when Grandma talked to the CEO and the moment he was hired when he went through a normal recruitement process and had to send in his CV, write a cover letter and have a job interview.

      Grandma sounds lovely, and kudos to her for helping her grandson, but I’ve yet to hear about a serious CEO hiring people based on “skills listed on a piece of scrap paper given to me by an old lady down the street”.

    3. Loopy*

      I have weirdly mixed feelings about this! I think personally I’d be embarrassed even if I did have the actual skills and experience to fairly get the job.

    5. Artemesia*

      My husband’s former law partner was just telling us the other day how he hired a new associate and then described classic gumption ie. the guy walked in off the street and sold himself. So yeah — it does happen.

  37. EA*

    UHHHH… This has been such a shitty week for me.

    My boss that I do most for is being promoted and will be most likely sharing an assistant with someone in the c-suite. They told me I will wait for the next person and support them. I know who the next will be, and doubt they will need much help. (I talked to her current assistant, who has way more responsibilities then just her ). When they told me this, I said I feel worried about my position and job security because our org has a hiring freeze (and pretty obviously budget problems) and that it isn’t know what the new person will need and how I will fit into that. They got mad at me for bring that up (I did it because for all I know they could have already spoke to the new person and she could have expressed a need for support) and told me that there have been no discussions about that and no discussions about what the incumbent’s support needs are and they didn’t like my reaction. They said things are just uncertain and they “are not trying to send a message that my position will be in jeopardy because there have been no discussions”

    I obviously don’t think I did anything wrong, and their reaction sucks. I think most people in my position would be worried. How does everyone think this will play out? Will the incumbent express her admin needs right away? Or will she be more likely to see what she needs as she goes along? I am trying to figure out how much time I have. I don’t want to work someplace that chastises me for expressing what I think are reasonable concerns, so either way I want to leave. I have started an aggressive job hunt, but I am trying to figure out how much time I have and how picky I can be if the worst case scenario is true.

    1. Stuff*

      It has been my experience that when someone gets mad about you asking if your job is in peril, it is indeed in peril. However, it took a couple months for that to come to fruition in my case. You’re mileage _will_ vary.

      Also, this is just one person’s experience in a wildly dysfunctional company and not necessarily indicative of the rest of the industry, region and or ecosystem.

      1. EA*

        I think I am toast, I am just trying to figure out how much time I have, to plan the best I can.

        1. Stuff*

          Well you’re looking. That is good. I fretted and, frankly, the only reason that didn’t destroy me was because of my extensive savings. Don’t be like me and just wring your hands.

          And keep your chin up! They showed themselves to be angry, petty people when they realized they couldn’t keep their “secret”. That’s not on you – that’s only them. Breathe and focus on getting that new job – you can do it!

        2. Chaordic One*

          In a situation like this, your supervisors will usually suddenly become obsessed with the idea of “cross-training” so that if you’re out of the office, someone can “fill-in” for you. Strangely, they won’t cross-train you in how to do anyone else’s job.

          Of course, this is really a ruse under which you’ll be training your replacement (or possibly training your supervisor so that he or she can train your replacement).

    2. Artemesia*

      I would take that response as a wildly waving red flag and be immediately like yesterday revising the resume and job searching. When people get made and tell you ‘no discussions’ have been held, what they are probably saying is ‘we have you slated for a rif but are not ready to announce that yet.’ At minimum they have told you it is possible you will lose your job; they have certainly not assured you that your job is secure.

  38. Deepest Darkest Anon for this*

    Does anyone have tips for interviewing with a direct competitor? I feel like i really have censor a lot of accomplishmemts because they cover things I wouldn’t want to necessarily hand over.

    The good news is, the phone screener for the first interview specifically said that the founder I’ll be speaking with next will not ask me to be unethical in what I discuss.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      It’s likely that you signed an NDA when you got hired, so that might cover some of your bases. You could maybe speak about your accomplishments in generalities rather than specifics.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Sounds like they’re aware of the inherent issues, which is good. I’d say, the first time it’s relevant, that of course you can’t disclose certain things, just as you would never disclose certain things about New Company if you were employed there.

      However, I’ve interviewed a person who basically refused to tell us ANYTHING because it was all super-super secret. As in, “tell us about a conflict with a coworker” was answered with “I can’t, because it’s classified.” Which we considered ridiculous, because he could have said “Coworker wanted to do a project one way, I wanted to do it another, and this is how we worked out our differences” without ever disclosing the super-super secret content of the project. So be sure to not do that. ;-)

  39. Murphy*

    I came back from maternity leave about a month ago. Since then I’ve had to take a few sick days (not pregnancy related, just bad timing with a bad cold). Since I’ve come back from leave, my boss has called me/texted me multiple times while I was sick to ask me about work stuff. Most of the time, it’s not urgent. Once it was “Have you seen this email?” which….no, I haven’t…because I was asleep all day, because I was sick. I ended up working an hour on one of those days that I was sick because my boss wanted something done. How do I go about talking about this with my boss? He never did this before I went on leave. I’d like to be able to take a sick day with the security of knowing that I’ll be left alone to actually be sick. Complicating matters is that we have a new timekeeping system that requires us to clock in and clock out (not previously required), so I’m not getting paid for these calls/texts. (I can clock in from home, but I can hardly clock in before picking up the phone.)

    1. fposte*

      For one thing, clarify the expectation. I have remote workers, part-timers, flex-timers, etc., so I don’t keep track of everybody’s specific work hours, I just email when the thing crosses my desk. It’s possible he’s not expecting you to do anything when he emails and would be fine if you muted him for the day (which would be an easier response than his changing).

      Now if he does expect that, that’s a different matter. I’d start by pushing back on the humanity basis (“Boss, when I’m taking a sick day, it’s because I’m not feeling well enough to do work; otherwise I’d come in. What do we do to get my position coverage while I’m out?”) and be prepared with the time-clock thing, especially if you’re non-exempt (“We’d also need to make sure the work I do when I’m out gets clocked–let’s meet with HR to find out how to do this”).

      1. Murphy*

        Oh I don’t get email alerts on my phone. (He told me when I started working for him that he works all hours/days, not to be surprised if he emails me on weekends etc. and that he doesn’t expect me to be answering them right then.) This is him calling/texting me during the work day when I’ve called in sick.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, then he’s clear that he doesn’t expect you to answer; just mute or ignore him while you’re out. I know iPhones let you select “Do not disturb” categories, and I would imagine others have something similar.

          1. Murphy*

            Even when he calls me? Why would he call me (or text me for that matter) if he didn’t expect me to answer?

            2. fposte*

              Sorry, I muddled email and text there; however, I suspect what he said could apply to both. However, ask him! If he says he’s not expecting you to answer, mute away and problem solved.

  40. Anon Right Now*

    Using an anon handle today because I have to unload.

    Yesterday a bunch of my male coworkers were all cracking up at a video that involved a teenage boy inflicting violence on a girl who used profanity at him. They showed it to me thinking I would also crack up; I was openly horrified and told them that not only was it not funny but that stuff like this actively contributes to rape culture, and in response they all started browbeating me about how I was totally wrong, the girl started it, you should always be kind to people and if you don’t that’s what happens, etc. It ended on “agree to disagree” because it got way too heated and they were clearly determined not to hear me out. Normally we all have good communication and a really jokey camaraderie, but like, it’s the next day and I am still really, really disturbed that I’m on a team with men who think like this, not least of all because we work in a community-based non-profit, and two of the guys are parents of teens and also self-professed devout Christians. I know that I’ll need to move past it and just chalk it up to ignorance, but MY GOD. I’m finding it very hard to feel warm towards any of them today.

    1. Gov Worker*

      God that sounds awful. I work with a man who’s like this on a daily basis.

      My office is just dysfunctional in general.

    2. babblemouth*

      Wow.
      I think you can feel dispensed of all responsibility to feel warm towards your colleagues, at all.
      So sorry your colleagues are like that. Is that all of them, or are there some people in your workplace with who you can still feel friendly?

    3. Junior Dev*

      Do you have HR? This is report-worthy.

      Regardless of what you decide to do there is nothing wrong with you for not wanting to interact with them more than the bare minimum needed for work after this. They’re disgusting and you should do what you can to protect yourself.

    4. Myrin*

      Even taking the gender aspect out of it for a second, I raise my eyebrows at a bunch of grown men laughing over a video where a teenager inflicts serious (I presume, not just something like slapping her hand away or similar) violence on another teen. These are your more vulnerable and defenceless juniors, what the heck is funny about that??

      (As an aside, these people’s logic doesn’t hold up – of course you should always be kind to people but are they seriously saying that if I curse at someone because they ran a red light while I was walking the street, it’s okay for them to get out of the car and murder me? Proportionality, people.)

      1. Anon Right Now*

        This is exactly what I said- I was like, “So you wouldn’t be upset if your son did this to a girl?” and they were like, “NO, of course it wouldn’t be okay,” but then one guy was like, “He would be in trouble, but I’d probably laugh at it once he was out of the room.” (In the video, the girl is riding her bike, and the boy throws a basketball at her, hitting her such that she falls forward onto the ground.) And then they tried to turn it around like, “Would you be upset if your daughter cursed at someone for saying hello?” (I don’t have any kids) and I was like, “My children wouldn’t be obligated to say ANYTHING back to anyone they didn’t want to talk to!” I also addressed one colleague who has a teenage daughter (of whom he’s extremely overprotective) and pointed out the cognitive dissonance of treating her the way she does but also being angry that she wouldn’t say hello to a stranger. (He’s asked my advice on his kids before, so he might digest that a little better.)

        I’m not sure that I would go as far as reporting it just yet, but I’m usually the one pointing out when the humor line is getting crossed, and our director is aware that some people need it spelled out for them. Mainly I just want to take all their kids into the woods and play them Bikini Kill.

        1. i2c2*

          Oh wow, I’m so sorry.
          I have absolutely cursed at people for “saying hello,” when they gave off the vibe that they might be the kind of person who would *knock me off my bicycle* if they didn’t like what I said back. Why would anyone want to talk to someone like that?
          I don’t know where the video begins, but this sounds like such a classic case of catcalling and boys demanding a girl’s attention (who is riding by swiftly and presumably would be significantly derailed by actually giving it) and then turning violent when she doesn’t give it.
          I kind of want to curse at your coworkers.

        2. This Daydreamer*

          I think I would go into full rant mode. I work in a domestic violence shelter so that really sets off some major alarms for me. I can’t imagine why anyone would find that anything but horrifying.

          1. Anon Right Now*

            I also have a background in working with survivors of intimate partner violence and sexual assault, although that’s not the focus of our organization. I’ve even led a training with my team about noticing signs of intimate partner violence and special considerations of working with survivors. I’m continuously amazed at just how entrenched in toxic patriarchy people outside that sector can be, even in our community where these issues are so prevalent.

            1. This Daydreamer*

              I live in a pretty liberal town, and I still feel like I’m surrounded by it! One of the counties we deal with has a sheriff’s department that is awful. So many of our clients weren’t believed by anyone in their lives because “he’s such a nice guy”. I hear the stupid “jokes” and the offhand comments. GAH

    5. Emi.*

      That’s terrible and I’m so sorry! If something like this comes up again and you want to address it, in my experience it’s not super helpful (with a group like this) to point out “that stuff like this actively contributes to rape culture,” because it makes people defensive/determined not to hear you out. (This is especially true when they don’t really know what “rape culture” means, which these guys probably don’t?) People are more willing and able to hear smaller-scale objections, like “That’s unkind” (hellooooo!) and “That’s disproportionate” and “Hitting people is not okay.”

    6. Gaia*

      Wait. They thought violence was an appropriate response to curse words?

      I don’t think I’d feel safe working with them at all. I think you need to have a conversation with HR about this.

      1. Anon Right Now*

        That’s what’s bugging me out. One guy in particular is really proud of the fact that his boys only listen to Disney music and gospel and would never ever use curse words, but he has no problem with stuff like this. The cognitive dissonance is staggering.

    7. neverjaunty*

      You just found out your co-workers are garbage humans. I’m sorry. And you certainly are within your rights to distance yourself from them socially.

      I would be very tempted to ask Christian Dude how he thought that video fit in with Jesus’s teachings about love and turning the other cheek.

      1. Anonymous 2 for Friday*

        These guys sound like a particular type of Christian I’ve encountered before – ones who don’t accept that they have a responsibility to de-escalate. Being bitter and resentful about a personal affront is a luxury Christians are supposed to forfeit on purpose and can’t reclaim (love your enemies). As a Christian myself, I’m embarrassed and horrified by those two guys in your office : (

        I’d be so tempted to leave this on anonymously on their desk (but it’d be so passive aggressive!): https://www.amazon.com/Unoffendable-Just-Change-Make-Better/dp/0529123851/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501862521&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=Hanson+unoffendable_

        And, just to be clear, I’m not preaching to commenters, only expressing my own dismay over the situation.

      2. Anon Right Now*

        Of course, when that occurred to me, it was hours later and I was at home. I don’t really feel like reopening the conversation, plus now it’d come across as needlessly antagonistic.

        1. neverjaunty*

          I don’t know about “needlessly! But the sad news is he’ll almost certainly shoot his fool mouth off again in the future.

    8. Lurker who knits*

      Good for you for not backing down! Everyone should be horrified at that video. We all mess up and lash out verbally sometimes, so all the more reason to NOT hit someone who just swore at you. And bystanders shouldn’t laugh when someone loses control (verbally or physically).

      Anon, in your place I’d probably be permanently cool (but professional) with these guys. And document future incidents for the director/HR. If you’re doing non-profit work, how are these people subconsciously (or conciously!) treating clients/community members?


      Your office is also blind to the dynamic of women/children/people-with-less-power being expected to say hello to strangers even when their inner radar is screaming “danger.” I’m not optimistic these co-workers will change.

    9. Lora*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I would also be weirded out forever. I mean, on the plus side they’ve all just revealed their true selves to you, so now you know what they are? Cold comfort I know. It’s really depressing when you think you know someone and they turn out to be terrible.

    10. Dr. Doll*

      My jaw is open, flapping around, and flies are flying into my mouth. This is really awful, I’m so sorry that you had to experience this — crap.

      I appreciate Anonymous 2 for Friday’s remark, very well put about the *proper* Christian response to affront.

    11. MissGirl*

      It’s really common when people are first called out on bad behavior to get defensive. You also had group think going on. It might make it easier if you tell yourself you’ve given them something to think about. Next time they may not be so quick to laugh.

      Sometimes things sink in later when one can let go of the need to defend.

  41. esemes*

    How do you deal with a newish colleague that is extremely stressed and in DEFCON 5 mode at all times (there are SOME reasons to be in URGENT MODE at our job, but not at the level which this colleague is taking it)? I’ve tried to talk to the colleague about priorities and urgency and not getting stressed about routine tasks, etc., but it hasn’t helped much (if at all). As someone who is pretty laid back, I want to be careful not to project my preferred work style/lifestyle onto this colleague.

    1. katamia*

      But your colleague is projecting their preferred work style/lifestyle onto you!

      I have a close family member who does it, and, honestly, the only thing that helps (at least with this family member) is to learn to ignore it. It sucks. It’s highly unpleasant (I’ll admit that after growing up with my family member my tolerance for this is quite low). If there are specific behaviors that they do (like if they’re loud, you could ask them to try to keep their voice down), then you can try asking them to keep it down, but if they’re anything like my family member, it might not help much or for very long.

      1. esemes*

        It’s not loud, rather it’s more an internal frenzy that spills out in the way that this colleague interacts (intensely, urgently, no time for the occasional chit chat, RUNNING to answer calls).

        I am quite social (ENFP, if that helps) and a procrastinator, so I don’t really get this level of stress. But, again, I am TRYING to be open to other people’s preferences. This one just seems unpleasant to me.

        I guess I’m not feeling very charitable about it and think I have room to be more accepting.

        1. Snark*

          I think a gentle, “Hey. This isn’t the most laid-back job, but you don’t need to be on the wire all the time. We’ve got time to be friendly and polite to each other,” might help.

        2. katamia*

          I’m borderline aggressively laid-back, probably in part due to my general personality and in part as an overcorrection after having seen my family member panic about every. little. thing. and seeing how panicking never helped.

          The place to be accepting around this, I think, is in recognizing that no matter how annoying and frustrating it is for you, it’s much worse for them (and not really a preference–it might be an anxiety disorder, having not learned how to deal with stress appropriately as a child, something else that they can’t control, or a combination).

          Much as I hate to say this because I hate having people stress out around me, if there’s no direct impact on you or your work (and I don’t think no occasional chit-chat counts as a real impact, but then I’m an INTP :P), the kindest thing you can do is let them stress out, ignore it, and if there’s a specific behavior that’s making it harder for you to work, just speaking to them about that particular behavior (I used loudness in my other comment and am failing to come up with another example right now).

          1. esemes*

            Totally agree. Impact to me is minimal (even if I do want to chat ;)). I do get worried that the colleague will burn out, but I guess I can’t make that my concern if I do the things within my power to communicate that we don’t need to be stressed.

      2. Same*

        I agree. You have to ignore it. I work with someone who is old enough to know better, but everything is an emergency and nothing is ever her fault. We’ve learned not to engage.

    2. Junior Dev*

      How new are they? I and a lot of people I know take several months to not feel constantly stressed and scared at a new job.

      1. esemes*

        Yes, I agree. I’m trying to give space for the newness adjustment. I think there is some of that at play. I’m hoping that some of that is at play! :)

    3. Construction Safety*

      FWIW, DEFCON 5 is the normal peacetime level.

      Ditto on what the others said, plus he may be a refugee from one of those places we see here a lot. Give him some more time.

      1. esemes*

        Hahahaha! Noted. I’m laughing so much at myself. :)

        *Normal mode of operation is DEFCON 1. ;)

    4. Rebeck*

      I’m probably something like this person. My new workplace (I got a job! Full time, permanent, academic library, started 11 months to the day after I was made redundant last year) is very laid back, stops for morning and afternoon tea at particular times. However not only is this not my preferred work style, it’s also very different to the work style of the main campus, who are annoyed by the laid back-ness of workplace (which I was told during initial training on main campus). I don’t want to be a bad cultural fit, but there’s the fit where I’m working and then the fit where my supervisor works. Ah, challenges.

  42. Not Today Satan*

    Does anyone else’s workplace have a lack-of-eye-contact plague? It’s only a handful of people, but there are certain people who when I walk up to their desks to talk to them, they just keep looking at their screen. And none of them are people I talk with a lot/I only go up to them for work purposes (and also I’m a manager/outrank them) so I promise it’s not a situation where they’re like “ugh, chatty Cathy at it again.” It drives me CRAZY. Look at me when I speak to you ffs!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      A couple of my students do this. I’ll ask them a question and they won’t even look in my general vicinity. It drives me crazy as well.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      Um, I don’t make eye contact with people sometimes… It’s because I’m shy and they make me nervous. If I’m comfortable, I have no problem, but if I’m not, I have difficulties making eye contact.

      Note to self that it’s something I need to work on, I guess.

    3. amysee*

      I used to have a boss like this.

      Me: [knocks on doorframe] Do you have a moment to talk?
      Boss: [typing, back to me] Sure. [Does not turn around]
      Me: So uh… [talks into boss’s back]

      I don’t miss that job.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      Is it possible they’re doing it because they don’t want to be interupted at their desks? This will depend on your workplace and role but it’s not necessarily reasonable to expect someone to stop what they’re doing just because you’ve chosen that moment to disturb them. Being a manager/more senior doesn’t change the fact that you’re potentially disturbing them. Is it possible their lack of eye contact is intended to signal this?

  43. Anon for now*

    Has anyone else been following the suit against U.S. Department of Education regarding erroneous certifications of qualifying employment for public service loan forgiveness?

    I am baffled as to why people are encouraged to submit these certifications if they do not mean anything (that they don’t mean anything is basically DOE’s position.)

    On a broader level, I am concerned about the fate of program overall. I have planned my career path and finances around the program, only have a few years left, and have a growing anxiety that the program will go *poof*!

    Have any other AAM readers followed a different career path than they otherwise might have (choosing government or nonprofit work over the private sector) as a result of this program? Do you feel confident the program will still be there?

    1. Olive Hornby*

      Yes, this is giving me tons of anxiety at the moment. I’m not in this position myself, but my partner went to law school specifically to do nonprofit work. We now have six figures worth of student loan debt that’s growing as fast as the payments we’re able to make on it. At the rate we’re going, if we don’t get some kind of loan forgiveness, we’ll be paying until we’re literally dead. I’m not sure she would have gotten a law degree had she known that would be the case.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I have the same problem because I went through a long period where I didn’t make enough money to pay anything at all. I finally got my loans consolidated and had begun paying and *poof!* there went my f*cking job. >:P

        I need a lottery win, or something.

    2. Julianne*

      I’m a teacher, and I know a lot of other teachers who had planned to take advantage of this program who are going to be up a creek if it gets cancelled. My district actually pays very well, so I think it’s unlikely that anyone I work with now will leave teaching for a salary bump, but I know that some have mid-five figure debt, which will be tough to manage if it’s not going away in 3-4 years as planned. I feel very lucky to have graduated debt free from undergrad (thanks to scholarships, and Mom and Dad) and with less than $10k from grad school (thanks, scholarships), so I opted to just make standard payments on my loan. However, I have considered going back to school for another certification, and this whole mess with PSLF has been another reason to hesitate.

  44. Lauren*

    I’m unhappy. I like my work, but I can’t seem to get going to do my work on time and it will start to affect me soon. I’m great at lists, but I never do everything on them. I’m procrastinating even opening emails in the morning. I don’t know how to get out of this slump. I take vitamin D pills, I open the shades at work where I can, I go out of the office when I can for lunch and try coffee and chocolate to boost my energy – I just don’t care to finish stuff the way I used to. I’ve been like this since I was excluded from a leadership meeting. I’m now in the meeting, but i’m still bitter about being excluded that whole time and my habits of not bothering to try hard and just do the bare minimum have stayed with me.

    When I was finally invited to that meeting (I was the only AD not invited for almost a year), I told the president of the company that it sucked being excluded – but didn’t get into the details of feeling like my AD promotion meant nothing, that its just a title, that they don’t care about my opinions at all.

    But back to the not wanting to work hard or at all stuff – how can I get myself back into doing my job correctly? How do I shake my motivation back into gear?

    1. Christy*

      Things to try: daily exercise, therapy, an evaluation for depression and perhaps medication. I needed all three to treat my anxiety.

      1. Lauren*

        All of the above, and planning on doing exercise classes soon. It all feels more mental though of how to stop my procrastination and feel more connected to my job again. I’ve had some positive client feedback so that is good, but I can’t seem to push through this slump of just not caring to bother. I really think it is tied to how leadership sees me, and if I’m just a cog in the machine and not worth the time to even say hello to let alone be included in leadership meetings. So I let things get to me more than most because of my own anxiety, but this is more f-it, if they don’t care – I won’t either. Now I want out of this slump tho, and its just isn’t happening.

        1. fposte*

          Ugh, slumps. Another possibly to throw in there is change of any kind–a few days off, a reorg/redecoration of your desk, a different approach to lunch, new scheduled walk breaks. Anything to push yourself away from the pattern you’re running in.

          1. Lauren*

            I’m thinking I need a sustained amount good work production that is well received by the clients. So I need to find a groove of getting work done. I think I might go work from home for part of next week. I need a day to myself without seeing leadership. I am 5ft from their offices and I see them fall over themselves to praise their favorites. When they look at me and quickly look away. They pass me and just drop their heads to look at their phones, and I think there was another leadership meeting that I was not invited too. Since it is recurring, they had to actively choose to remove me. I need to get away from this office for a little while.

        2. Same Boat*

          I’ve been in a similar slump–just can’t seem to care. That’s uncharacteristic of me. In my case, it’s a combination of a lot of stuff–being bored (been here too long), complete lack of respect from generally disconnected management, too much to do, the organization not doing well with a recent layoff that cut 60% of my department, etc.

          Are you looking to get out? You sound like you’ve had it where you are. I know I should, but I’m having a hard time even doing that. I feel like my brain is sapped out, even though I’m not doing much, and this is weird and annoying. Exercise sounds like a great suggestion; I might try that.

          1. Lauren*

            I like my team and direct bosses, its the top leadership that continue to make me roll my eyes everyday. I realize that I love it when they are traveling or on vacation. Eventually, we will move offices and I am going to snag a spot far away from them. I think being able to hear the gender bias BS just makes me have no respect for them, and I can’t un-know this stuff they say.

            1. Marillenbaum*

              That’s hard. When I was going through something similar at my old job, the thing that helped me get back into gear was framing it as: I need to do good work here so I can move on to doing good work somewhere else.

    2. anna green*

      Oh gosh, unfortunately I don’t have much advice because I am in the same exact situation. I don’t give a F about my work because of the way I am ignored by my company. I’ve been promised a promotion, but it never happens and I just keep getting brushed off. I procrastinate all the time and am always rushing to get things done and wasting time. I don’t know how to fix that, it’s a daily struggle.

      As far as advice, mostly I have started looking for something else. I haven’t found anything yet but just the prospect of looking and not feeling so trapped has helped a little. I have also started taking some professional development opportunities that are outside of work, which has helped a little bit. Also, I have gotten much more proactive and assertive at work because since I know I am not going to be here for the long haul (there is no future for me here) I might as well ask for stuff now so I can get the most out of it. I don’t always get it, but just feeling like I have a little more power over my circumstances helps.

      1. LawPancake*

        Ugh, I feel exactly the same way (which is why I’m here on the open thread rather than ya know.. working). So far I’ve been able to get everything needed finished but I feel like I’ve actually lost my ability to actually work hard.

        1. al*

          yes – so much this. I get everything done but feel like I no longer have the capacity to do good work.

    3. al*

      Also right there with you. I just don’t want to do any of it and don’t care. I used to love this job and had passion for what I did. All of that is gone now and I have zero motivation to do anything. I am getting by on the bare minimum – everyone says I’m still doing a great job at least.

  45. Junior Dev*

    Thanks to everyone who commented about reliving burnout last week. I went hiking and hung out with friends and it helped.

    I am so frustrated lately because there is basically no leadership on intermediate goals and deadlines, on what we have to deliver to other departments–just “x executive is mad we don’t have anything to show for our work and is threatening to cancel the project.” We never talked about specific deliverables. We had this week as a rough deadline but never had any idea what exactly we were supposed to have accomplished by now.

    Also we are spending way too much time fixing bugs that would have been prevented by better quality control and trying to ferret out information that should have been written down. I am going to look up some ideas for addressing these issues but I am stumped at how to address them. Everyone above me insists we “don’t have time” to program according to best practices but then we end up spending 5 times as long fixing stuff that should have been done right in the first place.

    Does anyone have experience bringing some order to this kind of situation? What are some scripts to convince people we actually need to talk about and make changes to out process? How do I keep people from getting defensive or acting like I’m proposing something frivolous and unrealistic?

  46. Job Hunteress*

    I could use some advice on potential career paths. I graduated from university in the spring and started a summer job as a volunteer coordinator at a large festival. As the festival got closer, I was getting nervous about whether I would enjoy working on my feet for 8-12 hours a day for 10 days. It turns out I absolutely loved it. There is something energizing about running around and solving problems all day. It made me realize how much I dislike office work. My job is almost finished and I’m job hunting again. My question is what kind of jobs or industries should I be looking at if I don’t want to sit in an office all day? My instinct is event planning, which I’m open to, but I would love other suggestions. TIA!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      FYI – there can be a lot of office time in event planning, too. I can’t speak to roles like wedding planners, but I have spent my entire career as an event planner in a variety of capacities, and about 75% of my time is spent in my office, at my desk, on my computer.

    2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Sounds like something hands on operations wise could work well? Sure there is some office time but if you are in a plant or some other control room of a logistical operation you are always having to run off and solve something (not something I could ever do, I admire those who can!). Just a thought – I hope someone in an ops role can come enlighten both of us!

      1. anna green*

        I agree with the operations suggestion. I am a consultant and spend most of my day on the computer (which I hate) but most of my clients are manufacturing companies, and my contacts seem to spend a lot of time working on the production floor and checking things out and fixing problems for people. That’s kind of a broad category, but its something. Seems like more and more jobs are computer based now, so trying to find something that can’t be done on a computer (building things, driving places, moving objects) is at least a start.

    3. FloorRunner*

      I would definitely recommend film/TV! Working as a Set PA is 10-12 hours of being on your feet and problem-solving. It also leads into several different areas (Production, AD, Locations), all of which are active and interesting in their own ways. It also gives you insight into the million different roles there are on a set and could give you other ideas for a career path.

      1. Job Hunteress*

        Great suggestion, I would have never thought of it! Do you have any tips on how to get into that industry?

        1. FloorRunner*

          I’m from the UK, so it might be a bit different depending on where you’re from. But here, although it’s still quite ‘who you know’, it’s getting better because of social media. There are runners Facebook pages that advertise lots of jobs in TV (mostly Fact Ent/Reality TV/Game show).

          Also quite a few dedicated jobs websites (thetalentmanager.co.uk and theunitlist.com are two big ones).

          It’s also a good idea to find the film office for your area and ring and ask if there are any productions going on in the area and if they have contact details. Local film offices over here often have Twitter accounts as well which are worth following because they will post info about who’s shooting where.

          There’s also various lottery-funded groups that work to promote regional film and TV as opposed to just London and you can register with them to get info.

          Another idea might be googling Film Location Agency in your area. They often need runners who can mix between office work and running out to locations to take pictures or show people around. That gets you in contact with producers, location managers and production managers.

          Last idea is looking at film caterers! I just worked as a catering runner for a feature film for 6 weeks and that was the most active work I’ve ever done on a set. I was miles away from where they were shooting but got to know Facilities, Locations and Production just by being around and a nice person to chat to!

          Here in the UK, it’s one of the few industries where it’s still ok to ring or contact people out of the blue and ask for work. Or go to production offices or studios and ask for the email for who’s hiring. On big productions especially, huge numbers of people are needed and it’s definitely a right place right time kind of thing.

          Over here as well, there are agencies/diary services for runners/PAs. It’s difficult to get on the books but it is possible. Some run traineeships and take on people with no experience who want to get into the industry.

          A lot of CV advice concentrates on transferable skills (cash handling, people wrangling, driving, customer service) so anything you do that has any of that in it is useful.

          Wow that is a wall of text that might not make sense! AMA though :)

          1. Job Hunteress*

            Thank you so much! That was super helpful! I’m in Canada, so it might be different, but I’m still going to look into your suggestions.

    5. dappertea*

      If your area has a pretty involved Chamber of Commerce, there’s usually a lot of networking event planning! Ours has multiple events every week, so there’s a lot of running around.

    6. Working Rachel*

      Related to event planning, but what about working on the other end: directly for a convention center or related convention bureau? I don’t know much about these jobs specifically, but I imagine they might involve a really interesting amount of variety in the people you work with and not very much traditional “office” time.

  47. Mimmy*

    Yay…actually off on Open Thread Day lol!

    First of all, thank you to fposte and one other person (can’t remember, sorry!) who replied to my post a couple weeks ago. Very, very helpful.

    I still have two more weeks before my co-instructor FINALLY returns, giving me a little breathing room, though I still have to cover two days per week alone since she only works 3 days a week. Then I’d work one other day either helping her or doing other projects.

    I am definitely under-qualified for this job, despite the anxiety it causes me. I absolutely want to eventually move on from instruction–it’s just not for me. One part of me really wants to work with students in a postsecondary education setting. But then I remember that this means dealing with a wide range of personalities and communication styles, which is one thing that causes me anxiety. However, I am also chomping at the bits to learn all I can about the ADA and other accessibility-related topics (I was tickled to see one of today’s “short answer” LW’s was an ADA coordinator in a university!) and use that information on a professional level.

    Backing up to give context: When I first interviewed for my current position, I had no idea that I would actually be instructing solo almost full-time–it was presented to me as a “floater” position where I’d help instructors in multiple areas. That is what excited me–I saw it as an opportunity to learn about all the different technologies and adaptations for blind & visually impaired people, which I could then later bring to a job at a college or university, or in other accessibility-related role. Had I known it’d be focused on one instructional area and that I’d be flying solo for over two months, I probably would not have taken the job. I had originally planned on seeking jobs that were more related to managing program data or maybe in a resource center.

    I know I need to be patient with myself and the career-building process, but it’s very difficult because I get antsy easily to get to where I want to be. Plus, my interests are pretty niche, thus limiting my options. Need some good AAM vibes!

  48. Tim*

    In two weeks I will be moving on to a different position (and location) in my company. My current job involves a lot of regulatory compliance stuff, mostly for our large vendor accounts, and my boss hasn’t found a replacement yet. The learning curve for this job is pretty steep and there’s a lot of location-specific stuff. My boss will have to do it until he can fill the position, and he definitely doesn’t know how to.

    I’m putting together a reference document so that I can refer all questions back to that (since I’ll still be with the company I could see myself getting bombarded). But to be honest, I’m more concerned that I WON’T be bombarded. The position was vacant for a month before I started, and my boss didn’t pay attention to anything. It was a disaster where a bunch of people lost their certifications and we were out of compliance on basically everything.

    My boss is on vacation right now and I’ll only see him one or two more days before I leave. I don’t trust him to handle this correctly and I suspect that no one will do this job at all for months. Would you suggest doing anything besides leaving very clear instructions on what needs to be done? I’ve considered reaching out to the department that oversees this area to let them know that somebody needs to monitor the situation, but I don’t really want to get too involved.

    1. RVA Cat*

      It’s hard for those of us who are conscientious to be comfortable with this, but if that is how your boss has chosen to handle it, that ball is his to drop. All I can say is to send all of that documentation to your boss by email so you have a clear record of your efforts.

      1. Tim*

        Good point – definitely going to send things over via email so there’s a clear record. I’d probably have done something a bit less clear if you hadn’t mentioned it so thanks for that!

    2. Natalie*

      After your last day this is 100% not your problem. I would be willing to bet that by the end of your first week and your new job, concerns about your old job will have completely vanished.

      1. Tim*

        My worry is more that it’ll come back on me somehow. My boss has been successfully passing the buck for years and I want it on record that I did all that I could. Otherwise I think my concerns will stay with me for a good year or so.

    3. SM*

      Are there a lot of deadlines involved (things expiring, paperwork due by X date…)? If so, including a calendar, or sending calendar invites to his electronic calendar with built in reminders might help him – or at least give the next person a place to start on what needs to be cleaned up first to get back in compliance.

    4. NW Mossy*

      My other piece of advice would be that if it starts happening at an unsustainable level, loop your new boss in – “Hey, just wanted to let you know that Fergus is pulling x% of my time on questions from my old gig. I’m planning to start pushing back since I know you want me to focus on A, B, and C – heads-up in case he asks you about it.”

  49. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

    TGIF and open thread time as I need some advice from the wonderfully wise folks here! I have a rare genetic illness that I have to get enzyme replacement therapy for every two weeks. My treatments last about 4-6 hours and I’ve been getting them on the weekend at my doctor’s office as I work Monday to Friday. I’ve tried working during my infusions when my doctor’s office was closed on a weekend but it just didn’t really work as I’m pretty exhausted and feeling not great for that day. My doctor’s office just called me and said they won’t be able to treat me anymore on a weekend and I need to now figure out what to do. Unfortunately, there aren’t my doctors who treat my disease so I’m trying to see if there is anywhere else within a few hours of me that could treat me on a weekend but I’m guessing I’m out of luck on the weekend treatments.

    So if I have to start getting them on the weekdays, I’d need to talk to my manager/senior staff about adjusting my schedule. As I’ll have to get these treatments for the rest of my life, this isn’t a temporary accommodation so it is a major change to my position. We do have staff who work weekends but I don’t believe anyone in my position has ever worked anything other than a Monday-Friday (with occasional weekends). I use to work Tuesday-Saturday at a previous job and so enjoy having a traditional weekend but I don’t think I have much of a choice as it is too hard to change my scheduled days working week to week. They know about my health issues and are generally pretty supportive but I guess I could use any tips/encouragement as this just feels so stressful.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m no expert, but… does your organization qualify for FMLA, and have you been there for a year? Because this sounds like the kind of situation intermittent FMLA is made for, from my limited knowledge. Flex time would be another option, like working longer hours 4 days a week during treatment weeks so you can have a full day off. I think you have some options to explore, and in your place, I would definitely bring it up with your manager.

      1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

        Unfortunately, we’re pretty small so no FMLA but I have a feeling my manager and deputy director would figure out a way to accommodate it so I just need to have the discussion. It’s just making my anxiety spike today which is not what I want on a Friday!

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          If your managers are generally supportive, then go in there expecting them to continue to be so. Start by telling them what’s up and that you want to work out a solution that would allow you to be out for a day every two weeks without impacting the business or your workload. Good luck!

    2. TCO*

      I’m sorry to hear about this; it sounds so stressful. I’d encourage you to apply for FMLA as a first step. At a minimum, that would protect your job should you need to take time off of work, paid or unpaid, for your treatments. It’s not a full solution but it might give you some peace of mind knowing that you have an additional layer of protection against any negative consequences for taking time off.

      Second, would it be possible for you to take off one day every other week and just make up that time during the rest of the week (working 4 ten-hour days, for instance) or pay period (if you’re exempt)? Could you get treatments in the afternoon and work half-days from home or the office those days?

      If your supervisors are kind and supportive, this probably won’t be the bombshell you’re worried it could be. There are plenty of potential solutions and they can be really helpful in helping you evaluate which ones might be best for you and your organization. Best wishes!

      1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

        Thanks, it is making me feel very stressed and my doctor’s office is acting like coming in on a weekday for six hours is no big deal so I guess I’m just not feeling very validated in my anxiety about it. Unfortunately, we’re pretty small so no FMLA but I’m thankful to have everyone’s ideas as I know going in with some solutions to the change will make everything much easier to find something that works for everyone!

    3. Red Reader*

      It might be worth checking with area hospitals to see if any of them have infusion services on the weekend. Several of the hospitals in my medical org network do – basically it’s a specialized clinic where you can make arrangements to come in and all they do is provide IV infusions based off a previously-issued treatment plan/prescription. They’re often (but not always) affiliated with oncology services.

      1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

        That’s how my mom gets them done but I just got off my phone with my case manager at the drug company and I guess a lot of hospitals won’t do them because of the cost (right now my insurance is billed about $2ok per treatment) and the complications of getting it approved. She is going to send me a list of other doctors in my state who offer ERT to see if I can find someone else as I’ve never been a huge fan of my doctor anyways and I really stayed with her because I was able to get treated on the weekends so this might be a good thing, in the end, it’s just stressful in the meantime!

    4. Anna*

      Well, for starters, FMLA and ADA both come into play here if your employer is big enough. If you need the treatments every other week, then you are only looking at going from 10 days in 2 weeks to 9. so, you aren’t really asking for all that much accommodations wise. So, you need to talk to the bosses sooner rather than later and see what you can arrange. If the doc will let you schedule every other Friday, then you have the weekend off to recover.

      If shifting your lost day to the weekend won’t help, what about working 4-10’s the week you need treatment?

      I would suggest going to the bosses with a plan and a backup plan and see then go from there. Start with the doc and see what your options are for locking your treatment day in. Then go to the bosses. Say plan A is week 1 you work M-F and week 2 you work Sun-Thursday. Plan B is week 1 you work M-f and week 2 you work 10 hour days M-R. If they have been supportive of your illness in the past, I wouldn’t lead off with ADA. Just put your suggestions on the table and see what happens.

      Also, and your insurance carrier will have a flipping fit about this, can the local hospital do your infusion on a weekend? What about home health? Now, that is a medical issue that I am totally and completely unqualified to address in any way, but it may be a way out.

      1. Red Reader*

        Last paragraph: The insurance carrier is less likely to flip a nut if it’s an outpatient service rather than affiliated to an emergency room. (My org does both ways, depending on the size of the hospital in question.)

        1. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

          I get them done at my doctor’s office so not affiliated with a hospital so it’s a little easier for them to create policies that fit their needs. Oh the fun of medical issues!

      2. volunteer coordinator in NoVA*

        No FMLA but I think we have enough full time employees for ADA. I’m guessing they’ll be willing to work with me, my anxiety is just a bit high because I’m not super comfortable asking for help in life. Thanks so much for laying out some ideas, that was very helpful as I was trying to come up with some solutions but I just kept getting overwhelmed by it.

        My doctor won’t prescribe for home infusions, even though lots of people with lysosomal storage disorders do get them done at home. My case manager at my drug company is going to get a list of other doctors in the area to see if there is another possible solution for me so hopefully, that will turn up something helpful!

        1. Lora*

          OMG, completely tangential – I worked on your enzyme! I’ve spent a few years as both a full time and consultant at the two pharmas that make lysosomal storage disorder biologics.

          At current job, we have a Fabry project in the pipeline which would still be infusion but hopefully not as often and much quicker. Like one hour, not six. But it’s a solid 5 years away from approval, we’re still in preclinical.

    5. over educated*

      Would a 9/8/1 schedule be a possibility? It’s 9 hours for 8 days, 8 hours for 1 day, and one day off every 2 week pay period. It’s actually the most popular schedule at my workplace, so every other Friday is a ghost town in here (all the better for my productivity, heh heh).

      Good luck, that does seem like a big deal and I hope your management is understanding and doesn’t go all “if we do it for you, wouldn’t we have to do it for everyone?” on you.

    6. SQL Coder Cat*

      I am so sorry you are dealing with this. My mom has a primary immunodeficiency and has to get infusions of immunobodies once a month- it completely wipes her out for the day. Our local hospital’s chemotherapy center made arrangements to be able to do her infusions- it’s not that different from chemo and since it’s outpatient the insurance company is okay with it. I don’t know what type of infusion you need but there may also be options for doing it yourself at home- search National Home Infusion Association for some resources.

      Good luck!

    7. Anono-meA*

      Every other week could you do Monday thru Thursday 9 hour days and a 4 hour Friday? Then go to get the treatment Friday afternoon ?

  50. Purple snowdrop*

    Last weekend I was away with family. Tuesday I saw my counsellor, had a 30 min consultation with a solicitor about leaving my spouse, met a friend then had a massage. I thought I’d be ok for the rest of the week but I’ve been totally utterly wiped out emotionally and found it nigh on impossible to concentrate.

    I’m hoping I can recover over the weekend but some reassurance that this is understandable would be great, if anyone can provide any :-/

    3. Anna*

      You are not going to completely recover over the weekend. The “leave your spouse” emotional rollercoaster goes on for a long time. It’s completely understandable and lots of people go through it. I am one of them.

      Write everything down with the assumption that if you don’t, you will forget it before you finish the thought.

      What you can and should do is look at the things you have going on in your life and prioritize them. What absolutely has to be remembered, done and done right the first time. What do you have some leeway on, and what can you put in the do it later pile. You also need to do that without crawling under a rock and separating yourself from your support system. And, yes, those 2 things can be mutually exclusive.

      You need to take care of yourself. You can’t take care of anything or anyone else if you don’t.

      Everything you are feeling is perfectly normal and understandable.

      Good luck.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      This is completely understandable. You just made a massive change in your life and it’s going to take a while to settle into a new routine and get him out of your head.

    5. EmilyG*

      I seem to remember the summer I got divorced as particularly hot, and even though breaking up was really the right thing, some crying was involved… so I spent the entirely summer feeling sweaty and puffy and out of it. Once I’d handled a lot of how-to-live-my-new-daily-life particulars (how will we sell our place, who will keep our pet, etc.) I found I once again had a lot of brain space for other important things, and could think again! Anna’s practical advice sounds good to me, for the meantime.

      I picture divorce as a Valley of Suckitude that you have to pass through to get to the amazing life that awaits you on the other side. Your feelings are totally normal, and you will be fine!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Massages can touch the emotions. Sometimes a massage therapist draws an emotion or two to the foreground that might have not been there earlier. While a massage should make things better sometimes things look worse first.

      Lots of water with a massage, right? Ideally lots of water before the massage, too.
      I have to say just getting a massage wipes me right out for half the day. I can’t see where someone in your setting would do better than that, honestly.

      Well my point is this is all totally reasonable.

      My suggestion is watch how you stack your day and your week. I know in times of crisis, I would assign things a rating by weighting them. A lawyer and a massage were heavy weights, a friend was a light weight. I had to have a couple light weight things for every heavy weight thing. Light weight things included anything that would benefit my body and mind that were low key activities: reading in bed, soaking in a hot tub and so on. The tricky part is to actually DO these things. ;)

      Get extra rest. Let’s say ordinarily you need 7-8 hours per night. Bump that up to 8-9 per night at least most nights, if not every night. Keep telling yourself, “this too shall change”.

  51. Title matters*

    How and when do you ask about a role’s position in the organizational hierarchy? I have applied at an organization where everyone is either “1st Lead” or “2nd Lead” (these are made up, but functionally accurate) but the position I’m interviewing for is X Strategist (actual title). I am weary of being the only person at my level as I have been there, done that. I also don’t want to be the most junior person, and my guess would be that Strategist is below 2nd Lead, but the Strategist reports directly to the 1st Lead, and this particular team doesn’t appear to have a 2nd Lead.

    I know some people will say title doesn’t matter, but in my experience it can and does. Plus, this isn’t just about the title, it’s about the reporting structure and how the team works.

  52. Fabulous*

    I’ve been working in a different department for the past 6 months covering a maternity leave, having transferred over there only a couple months after being hired permanently at my job. I’ll be transferred back to my previous manager within the next week or so and I’m really nervous!

    I know I enjoyed working for her before (I was a temp for 8 months prior to my hire date) but my current manager is so much more lax about everything than she is. I’m also nervous about finally getting more into what I was hired to do (QA and Employee Relations versus Financial Reporting) rather than just do random tasks as they’re assigned. I’ve gotten comfortable with reporting and really enjoy that type of work!

    It’ll be nice to have more structure to my day, but I’ve gotten used to having lots of down-time too. I can already tell it’s gonna be a tough transition… Wish me luck!

  53. katamia*

    I seem to have a touch of “senioritis” at my part-time retail job (which I like overall). I’m leaving next month (assuming I can get the freaking visa), but I was out sick for two days this week and thought it would be extra awkward to quit on the only day I was there this week, so I haven’t told them I’m leaving (or maybe leaving?) next month. Part of it is just the “I’m leaving soon, yay!” and part of it is also just the sheer weight of the uncertainty of not knowing whether I’ll be able to get my visa and go to grad school next month, what kind of housing I’ll have if I do go, etc. Any advice on how to remotivate myself to work hard at this job? There’s been no sign that my bosses/coworkers have noticed.

    1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      When I left retail, I had hardcore “senioritis” during my final week. The only thing that kept me going at full steam was making sure I was doing my best for my coworkers, which meant contributing all that I could during my shift and making it as easy as possible for the next shift coming in behind me. Of course, this strategy only works if you actually like your coworkers. A more selfish motivation for me was that I wanted the positive reference in the future, so I kept that in my mind also when I could feel myself dragging.
      Good luck in your future endeavors!

  54. anon for this one*

    My department has lost our admin and, due to a hiring freeze, there are no plans to replace her. There have been vague promises of getting “some support” from an admin in a different area when we need certain specific work done, and I’m like, that’s great, but can someone please just tell me now who is supposed to make those travel arrangements that I’m not allowed to make on my own? Who is my phone coverage? Who do I contact to order the office supplies I’m not allowed to order? Please?

    1. Artemesia*

      Wow that sounds annoying. I’d be inclined to make the requests directly to your boss. e.g. An email requesting a box of pens, a box of staples whatever. An email listing your travel dates for the conference and need to book the flights, hotel etc. Note that you are not authorized to do these yourself and don’t know whom else to send them to. Perhaps that gets them to identify the admin in the org who will do this for your department (or worse case, you will be tasked to do it yourself.)

  55. Paige Turner*

    A few days ago, @nwilborn19 on Twitter asked, “What’s the shortest amount of time you’ve spent on a job and why?” and the responses were amazing. Me, I had a terrible restaurant job for about a month- I still get flashbacks when I see an outdoor fountain or a bottle of Patron Silver. How about you all?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      One week at Macy’s during the holidays when I was in college. I worked in their fine china department and received basically no training. I was given a schedule, worked for 3 or 4 shifts, and then was never put back on the schedule again. No one ever told me if I had been fired or they forgot to put me on the schedule, and I hated the job so much that I just… let it go and didn’t ask.

    2. Red Reader*

      I got a job as a survey taker. 45 minutes in, I told the supervisor that I’d gotten a text that my house was on fire and never went back.

    3. Mimmy*

      I’ve lasted 2 weeks on two separate jobs, both were as a receptionist early in my career. Both times, I was let go.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      Two weeks.

      It was working for the retentions department of a large internet provider in the UK. I was offered the job and told that there would be four-weeks of classroom training (the red flag was raised but not waving yet because I was new to this type of workforce). The training consisted of sitting behind a computer screen learning about the company and the products and team building games.

      I left in the second week because the trainer said that if I watched his back, he’d watch mine, when it came to reviews. This is the same trainer who took the group out the previous Friday and openly talked about drugs in front of them, bought some cocaine and snorted it then and there. Fortunately, I didn’t attend that because I don’t drink and it’s boring being the only sober person in a group of people you don’t particularly like.

      After our conversation, I knew that I wouldn’t be happy in the role and I quit ten minutes later.

    5. fposte*

      Two days. Because just because I can pass a written test does not mean I made a good home health-care aide.

    6. FloorRunner*

      About 5 hours I think? A weird telesales job I got through the uni temp agency while I was studying. It was horrible (auto-dialling old ladies and asking them if they wanted loans). I think the supervisor must have been listening into calls because about 5 hours in, he came over to my desk and said ‘This isn’t really working for you, is it? Do you want to go home?’ And I said ‘Yes, please!’ Picked my stuff up and left.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        1 week. The job was a month -long assignment in a hospital’s accounting dept. I just wasn’t feeling the assignment (Plus, I had to be there at 7am and at that time, I was not used to functioning that early in the morning- LOL). So after 1 week, I told them that I had a family matter to attend to and I left.

      2. Girasol*

        Me too! I quit on the second night of my first job, telemarketing for local newspaper subscriptions. The boss got fed up with my lack of success and plugged my phone into my more successful coworkers’ so that I could learn how it was done. Those girls were simultaneously selling newspapers and their bodies. My folks, who had been excited to see me finally land a real after-school job, did not object when I quit.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      The shortest tenures I’ve ever had were three days doing fluff and fold in a launderette, and two days working at a restaurant. The latter had been a staple in the community for years and had recently been taken over by new management. It was a disorganized mess and completely mad. They had way too many people in the kitchen, nobody knew what was going on, and the front-of-house manager was a complete jerk–one waitress walked out on my first day. When I went to the new owner to tender my resignation, he didn’t even know who I was.

      The fluff and fold was a second job, and I realized very quickly that I cannot work two jobs.

    8. k.k*

      Two days. It was a part time retail when I was home for summer in college. The second day of training I felt sick, sweating, chills, etc. and almost passed out while I was there. Turns out I had mono, a particularly bad case of it, and was basically in bed for a month. So I never ended up going back.

    9. Biff*

      A couple hours. I watched a woman pick her nose while wearing latex gloves, and then shove her hand into the french fries to serve up a boat of them to a customer. *shudder*

    10. I'm Not Phyllis*

      Today is my last day at a job I’ve been in for two months – my shortest stay.

    11. This Daydreamer*

      One day. I was fired over the phone a couple of hours after I got home because the schedule the manager and I had set up wasn’t going to work for some reason. I’m pretty sure someone’s best friend applied for the job.

    12. NoMoreMrFixit*

      2 weeks. working in a retail store selling computers and video games. manager informs me one day that a friend of hers needed a job so they gave them mine. I laughed my head off when the entire chain went under a year later.

    13. WellRed*

      A temp job where I was supposed to do filing and data entry (which is boring enough). Instead they had me using a label maker to make labels for thousands of file folders. Like, the kind of handheld label maker where you enter in the name letter by letter and it punches out a strip. Three days in, I asked the agency to be reassigned.

    14. Ramona Flowers*

      One week temping at a horrible accountancy firm. They giggled at the boss’s sexist jokes and kept asking me to print things when they meant photocopy. After I quit they complained that I looked at their confidential client list WHICH THEY PUT IN MY IN TRAY AND TOLD ME TO READ.

      I had the last laugh as I got a much better paid job for the very next Monday and loved it.

    15. Fabulous*

      I worked at a small Halloween store for two weeks once. I was at the main store, but they were also opening a couple other temporary stores around the city for the season. The city where we were located had one GREAT Halloween store (this was NOT it) but the great store was quite a bit further away from downtown.

      The second week I was there, a customer came in looking for something we simply did not have. They specifically asked for directions to the great store, which I gave. The next day, I was asked not to come back in (no reason given) and sent on my way with an envelope of cash for my 2-weeks’ pay (nope – no W2, totally under the table work of course).

      I called back a few days later and spoke with the owner about what the heck happened. She finally said – after much beating around the bush – that instead of giving directions to their competitor I should have given directions to one of their other locations. Didn’t matter that a) they wouldn’t have had the item there either, b) the other stores were still being set up, or c) still being new, I didn’t even know where the other stores were located!

    16. Tris Prior*

      Four days. I was in my very early 20s and just out of school. I was told it was a marketing/writing job but I got there my first day and was told I’d be answering phones. One of the owners traveled a lot and would call asking to speak to the other owner. I was told I had 30 seconds to locate Other Owner and put him on the phone. My first day, I was unable to accomplish this due to Other Owner being in the men’s room. First Owner then cursed me out with many f-bombs.

      Amazingly, this is not what inspired me to quit. I quit after Second Owner literally broke a door in anger. I forget why, other than, it wasn’t anything I did.

    17. Chaordic One*

      Many, many years ago I had a temp job that I quit after only 2 and half hours or so. The job was typing a master’s degree thesis for some guy who was like a social worker or something like that on an old-fashioned electric typewriter. It should have been an easy enough job. There weren’t all that many revisions and the foot-noting wasn’t anything excessive, but for some reason I just could not get into it and I was making an awful lot of mistakes, so I called the agency, apologized profusely and then I apologized to the client and I left.

      I got paid for it, but I believe that the agency didn’t charge the client for the short time I was there and I hope they sent a replacement who was better able to perform the task. The agency never called me back, but I don’t blame them.

    18. Delta Delta*

      I was a restaurant hostess for 4 days. My shift: breakfast on weekdays. At a hotel restaurant. And not the kind of place that had a continental breakfast for guests. This was full-on, sit-down, menus and servers. This is not the kind of place that has, frankly, any breakfast business on weekdays. It was early and boring. I had to contend with 2 waitresses who hated each other and who were also bored. I made it 4 days.

  56. Lolly Scrambler*

    My grandboss has been off sick (apart from occasional days) for months with stress but continues to attend work social events. This week she announced she is calling in a consultant to look at the team. This is the third consultant we’ve had in 2 years and I feel like every time someone can’t do some aspect their job (or all of it) they just call in a consultant.

  57. hermit crab*

    Thank you, everyone who provided anti-typing-noise music suggestions a couple of weeks ago! I haven’t had a chance to check out all the suggestions yet but have been listening to getworkdonemusic a lot — it’s not perfect, but it’s a big improvement from my previous go-tos. I’m excited to check out the rest of the suggestions!

  58. JustaTech*

    TL;DR I’m worried that our new hire will get bored and quit.
    Long version: My team just hired a new tech to replace a position that’s been open about 6 months (we weren’t allowed to back fill for several months). Our company also just got sold (again) so we’re in yet another limbo state. We’ve been promised (and I believe) that there will be a pick-up in work, but right now there’s a lot of “wait and see” “be patient” etc etc.
    The new tech is great, really smart, actually reads the trainings, doing their own (paper) research. And then they ask me when we’ll start our next project and I’ve got *nothing*. Like, maybe one or two little things that are closer to “nice to have” than must do. And neither I nor our boss have a lot of ability to come up with more stuff. So I’m worried NewTech will quit and leave me stuck as the only person who can do the most essential thing. (I want to change careers but it’s taking forever, that’s a different story.)

    So far I’ve taken the really honest approach of “you can see we’re in limbo, here are the things we might work on, here’s all this past stuff you can read and learn, but that’s kind of all I’ve got”. Is there something else I can try? (To be perfectly honest my whole group is pretty bored by the lack of projects and the lack of direction from above.)

    1. katamia*

      Maybe you could organize some sort of mini-training for your team? Something through Lynda.com (if you already subscribe, at least) or a work-related book club (as in, you all would read a book that would teach you skills you would use and then talk about them) or something like that.

  59. Nervous Accountant*

    I only worked 3 days this week but this has been the craziest week I’ve had in forever.

    My coworker resigned but instead of letting him work out the 2 weeks, they let him go the same day. I was out of the office that day so didn’t get to say a proper goodbye. I’m *really* bummed about this because we were work friends and got along well. I was expecting him to leave because I was part of it, and I’m happy he found a better thing, but holy shit, that was unexpected. I miss em.

    I had my evaluation. I received all 4s and 5s. I got a promotion to a senior role and a 15% raise. What’s more, my manager really pushed for the raise and promotion.

    I did push back on the $$ amount. 15% while considerably high, brought me only to 55k, which is still below market rate. I asked for 60, and stated my case for it (I’ve done a good job, market rate, I’m known quantity etc) and he went to our boss with it. We had a second conversation where he told me it wasn’t going to happen and why. WRT my points, he said the appreciation of my hard work was reflected in the raise. Which makes sense to me. As for the advertised salary of $65….they said it was a marketing ploy.

    I asked what do I need to do to get up to 60-65, and he said I really need to work on the quality of my returns, knowledge, and be proactive with clients. All but the last one were correct and made sense to me so I didn’t argue about it.

    So there’s the end to that episode.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Meaning someone decided that it’d b e a way to lure in new applicants. And then offer them a salary based on experience. I’ve never job searched in this way before, but I’m not sure it’s uncommon that an advertised salary is one but they offer you lower based on your experience?

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            How does it normally work?

            When I was searching, I would apply through Craigslist and the rate listed was hourly and “DOE.” Anything that was more than $50k I avoided bc I didn’t have the required experience level at the time. (3 years ago)

        2. neverjaunty*

          So, yes, they lied to you. It’s certainly reasonable to post a range, with the upper end of the range being the maximum they will pay to highly qualified applicants. But posting a salary they never intended to pay is flat-out lying to applicants (which is what ‘marketing ploy’ really means).

  60. Nervous Accountant*

    I haven’t had a real job interview since 2014, so I’m ready to see what’ s out there and brush up on my skills. I guess I need a refresher on what to say, and exact scripts. If anyone could point me to past threads or input on this, I’d love to read those too!

    A few questions I’m stuck on are:

    Why am I looking to leave?–I hate the CS aspect of my job. Any time a client leaves a bad review, we’re on the hook and have to beg them to remove it. It doesn’t happen often, but I never want to deal with this kind of thing; I get wanting to deliver great service and customers are top priority but I also feel it’s occasionally unrealistic. You can’t make everyone happy. Is that unrealistic?

    what am i looking for?—what I like about my current job is the type of work I do and the environment. This is an open plan with a lot of people, and majority of us are friendly and sociable. I dont’ want to work in a small office where anyone barely speaks to the other person or worse, cliquish and toxic etc. Work wise, I do bookkeeping, tax prep, payroll and consulting.

    My husband and I just booked a trip for December/January, 2 weeks, and we always travel the week of thanksgiving. In the event that I DO find something else, how and when do I bring this up?

    How would I convey all of this professionally in an interview/phone screen?

    1. self employed*

      #1 is a red flag, unless you are applying to jobs where you have no customer contact. You can’t make everyone happy, but you need to try. That’s was CS is. Having an “oh well” attitude wouldn’t fly with most client-facing roles, kind of like “I don’t like working with people.” I understand what you’re trying to say; perhaps you could express dissatisfaction with the customer review process rather than what you’re saying here.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Well yes, I could have worded that better. I’m OK with customer service, keeping them as top priority etc. And I put my effort in to all my clients. But sometimes it just feels unreasonable.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think your boss’ approach is unreasonable. We cannot possibly be responsible for what others post on the net. Except in his world.

          You are probably fine with customers. But like the rest of us you are not fine with bosses who set unreasonable expectations. On the interview you could ask about expectations in terms of customer service.

    3. The IT Manager*

      What you described is not customer service – begging customers to remove bad reviews is some kind of plot to hide negative reviews rather than fixing the problem for the current customer and in the future so it doesn’t happen again. I certainly wouldn’t say you hate that because it seems like your duties require customers.

      I’d try to frame the non-market compensation and requirement for you to change reviews as the reason you’re leaving without saying you hate CS.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      Are you looking to leave public practice all together? Because you could use that. “After my years in public practice I’m looking to get into the private sector.” Or “Tax season sucks and I want to get away from that.” Every accountant on earth will understand that one.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        If you are asked “why are you looking to leave?”, don’t say you HATE your current job/duties. Instead, explain what you would LIKE to be doing (mention a few of the details of the job description of the position that you are interviewing for). As for the “What are you looking for?” question, again, explain the type of work you are looking to do. Never bad-mouth your current/past jobs and managers.

        1. Nervous Accountant*

          I like most of my duties, it’s just that one aspect of it.

          And as crazy as it sounds I actually like working during tax season, I’m one of the crazy ones :) I’ve realized over the years that I peak during the season and then I kind of enjoy the slowness of summertime.

          I do like that here, they promote from within for the most part. It’s just the $$ that really sucks. I know at one point I was content, and even thrilled with 38k. and I know I have to decide quickly if that’s worth staying here for.

  61. A Nonnus Mousicus*

    Hi AAM Community! I would love to get some advice.

    I started a new job about 2 months ago and I love it. It’s a great group of people and I’m feeling challenged to learn and to grow with the company. For the first time in a long time, I am excited to go to my office in the morning. There is one teensy problem…. I have a Creepy Coworker.

    CC will say things to people (mostly women, but it’s also happened to men) in the office that come across as weird and patronizing, not to mention vaguely sexual. I.E. he once made a joke about my living with my fiancee being “sinful”. He’ll lurk around the office during the day trying to talk to women who he thinks aren’t busy, and stand too close when trying to demonstrate things. I’ve done my best to tell him to stop, but in the end, I needed to escalate. I spoke with my manager about it and he in turn spoke with HIS boss about it. The big boss discussed the matter with CC and it’s since slowed down a bit. My question is how do I continue to work with CC without letting my obvious discomfort around him get in the way? We are in teams that closely work together and I need to see him and talk to him every day. Whenever I see him coming, I feel my blood pressure spike and it has become a source of stress that I didn’t want in a job that is otherwise wonderful.

    I would love some advice on this from anyone else who might have been in a similar situation.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Kind of depends on what you mean by “slowed down a bit.” The behavior you described is creepy and obnoxious, but not outright harassment, in my opinion. It sounds more like extreme social-awkwardness, especially considering your male coworkers have also experienced it. The awkwardly hanging around female coworkers can come from a belief that they will be more friendly than their male counterparts. That doesn’t make it okay, but it’s not uncommon and not necessarily sexual in natue.

      After the conversation with big boss he should have stopped the jokes about relationships and lurking around female coworkers, but if he’s not good at judging appropriate “personal space” it’s possible that’s not going to be a quick fix.

      The best thing to do is be completely honest when he’s doing something that bothers you.

      “Ned, can you take a couple steps back? You’re standing a bit close.”

      “Ned, do you need something? You’re been hovering for five minutes and I’m trying to get work done.”

      “Ned, please ask if you want to use my mouse to show me something on my computer.”

    2. k.k*

      I’m glad it’s slowed down since he was spoken too, but if it doesn’t completely stop after some time I’d go back to your manager. In the mean time…There’s this great bit of advice that it to “return the awkward to sender”. Basically, instead of being uncomfortable when he is being creepy, make him feel uncomfortable for being creepy. That involves calling him out directly, which can be hard because women especially are taught to be polite and we tend to feel like we’re being rude by pointing out when others are being terrible. Use phrases like “That’s a strange question, why do you ask?”, “I’m in the middle of something CC, is there a reason you’re over here?” He may get defensive when you say this, but don’t let that get to you. Just mentally remind yourself that he’s the one with the problem, not you. Since he’s been spoke to about this from the boss he should be aware that his behavior is a problem, and it sounds like he’s taken some steps to change, so hopefully instead of getting defensive he’ll realize that he’s in the wrong.

      Also, I would recommend checking out Captain Awkward, particularity the “creeps” tag. https://captainawkward.com/category/creeps/ There is some excellent advice there on how to deal with these types of people.

    3. Inspector Spacetime*

      I would try being polite, but not friendly.

      Whatever you do, don’t laugh at his jokes. Just look at him blankly and pretend you don’t get it. If he explains, just say, “Oh, I see,” and then continue with the work-related conversation. Nothing crushes a guy’s spirit more.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        I have no advice (except the same as what the others have said) but I do have a question. How on earth do these Creepy folks get hired????

  62. This is me*

    So in a staff meeting on Monday morning, the owners/leaders, and the dept heads, including me. We are brainstorming on some team building ideas for our teams and someone proposes rock climbing. I said I don’t think that’s a good idea considering the age range, and fitness range of our teams. I gave myself as an example as they all know I have a bad shoulder (dislocated it years ago, surgery, pt then re injured it again on a job site followed by PT) . They blew off my concern I mentioned another employee had a heart condition and they all freaked out. HOW DID I KNOW? WHY HADN’T I TOLD THEM? . Honestly at that point, I regretted it immediately for telling them THEN and wish I had just shut my mouth after they blew off my personal example. Well in the future, if someone tells me they have a medical condition, I need to tell the owners ASAP. I am extremely bothered by this, as if it doesn’t impact their ability to do their job, I don’t think they need to know, and its really not my place to tell them. would this not be a HIIPA violation? I have already chastised myself for slipping up on the heart condition reveal. (I assumed they knew, dumb me.) So for now, my plan is to just keep my mouth shut.

    Am I right to be bothered by this directive?

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      It’s not a HIIPA violation because you’re not a medical provider, but it’s a weird directive. In the moment, I might have recommended saying something like “Oh, I think it would be better to let people reveal their medical situations to you themselves.” Since that moment has passed, I would just flat-out ignore the directive and hope they forget about it.

    3. katamia*

      Not HIPAA because you’re not your coworker’s doctor/nurse/other medical staff. But it’s not okay for them to ask this of you, either. I wouldn’t obey it if you find out about someone else’s health condition in the future.

    4. Snark*

      “would this not be a HIIPA violation?”

      Are you a medical professional and custodian of medical records? If not HIPAA does not pertain. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that HIPAA covers the entire general public, and it doesn’t.

      Your bosses are being unreasonable and bizarre, and you’re right to be bothered by that directive, and I think you can disregard it and plan to never discuss anybody’s health with them for any reason. And really keep a clamp on discussing anybody else’s health with a third party, whether it’s HIPAA-protected or not, because it was certainly not your information to share, even in support of a point.

    5. stitchinthyme*

      Kind of a tangent, but oh wow, do I hate, loathe, and despise “team building activities”. I’m okay with company-organized fun activities (during work hours or not) as long as they’re totally voluntary (and I mean REALLY voluntary, not “voluntary but you’re expected to go even though we didn’t explicitly say so”). A former boss of mine who was an avid skydiver organized a couple of weekend skydiving events that were a lot of fun, for instance — not everyone went, and a few people just came to watch those of us who were crazy enough to jump out of a plane.

      I once nearly got in trouble for bad-mouthing some stupid team-building activity during an all-hands meeting at my previous company; I’ve never been one to stay quiet when I don’t like something, and someone I didn’t know heard me and reported it to our VP, who called me into her office. I told her I apologized for being so vocal about my feelings, but not for the sentiment, and I explained why I thought such things were stupid and pointless.

      But as to your actual question, yeah, I’d keep my mouth shut in the future. You didn’t violate any laws, but if you were told about your coworker’s condition in confidence, you did violate their trust — but don’t beat yourself up over it, as we all blurt out things we might not say if we had time to reflect on occasion. Learn from your mistake and move on.

    6. Biff*

      Uh…. I have a problem that would def. impact rock climbing and I would NOT be happy if it got around my company. So I think you should be bothered by this directive.

    7. Miki*

      Yeah, rock climbing might be too much for a such varied group of employees (talking as a long time rock climber), so I think you were right in trying to explain that to the leaders. It is a very strenuous activity and novices get tired very quickly (lack of knowledge/technique for one) and then it’s not fun for anyone. Also you could point out that there might be people who are afraid of heights (legit excuse) and rock climbing/bouldering is a no-go for them as well. Hope you find a bit more people friendly team activity.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, I would keep my mouth shut, too.
      If they said anything later I would just laugh and say, “Oh, I would be in here every two minutes. No one enjoys perfect health.”

  63. mirinotginger*

    I’m about a year into my first professional job after college. Before college I was in the military and worked a bunch of retail/customer service type jobs. It’s becoming very obvious to me that I need to work on my ‘soft’ professional skills such as keeping frustration off my face, working on tone of voice to not show frustration, not getting frustrated at ‘yelling’ at people (not raising my voice, idk what the right word is), or thinking before I speak. As well as just overall portraying myself as professional and competent. Any tips or resources for building these skills outside of work. I’d like to have places to practice or ways to improve that don’t involve loosing my cool over and over and hoping that isn’t the time that will come back and bite me.

    1. k.k*

      I would ask someone I trust and knows me well (would be spouse for me, could be a close friend, family member, etc) to basically monitor me on occasion when we’re together and have them call me out when my face looks angry or I raise my voice. Only when we’re together for casual one-on-ones, in a big group it could become a spectacle or annoying to others. So for example, if you were out together and the restaurant messes up your order, you’re stuck in traffic, etc. They can give you a little signal to know that you need to cool off, and also tell you whether or not your attempt to mask your frustration is working.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Pretend you are briefing the brass. Be calm, factual, prepared. You wouldn’t yell at the General.

      Also, what about trying Toastmasters? I haven’t used it but many AAM readers recommend it.

      1. mirinotginger*

        Yeah, I’ve thought about it, but it’s less in times when pitching something and more in discussion based meetings. Any thoughts on if Toastmasters would help with that?

    3. yeller*

      One thing I can comment on – the “yelling” that’s not really yelling. What others may be reacting to is not necessarily the volume of your voice, but the tone/intonation – clipped words, fast and forceful speaking style.

      Are you making room for others in the conversation – ie, leaving a pause between they finish and you start, pausing between your own thoughts so others can chime in? For me, trying to focus on listening helps me include more of these pauses and softens my tone. It can be frustrating when other people only react to your tone instead of your words, but you’ll get better at it with practice!

    4. JustaTech*

      An acting or improv class? That might help you get a better handle on what your face is doing and how other people react to it.

    5. HannahS*

      Practice during other interactions that range from neutral to frustrating. At the DMV, with the receptionist at the doctor’s office, on the phone with your internet provider–all are opportunities to try out different versions of your professional persona in short bites with people that you don’t have to see again (or often, anyway). Personally, I’m trying to use opportunities like that to learn how to make small talk and how to be assertive. It’s hit-and-miss; I made great small talk with the movers but let them cheat me out of 60 bucks. So, you know. More practice needed…

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I say look at the underlying causes.
      Many times loss of temper or frustration can stem from privately realizing we do not have the skills necessary to fix the problem being discussed.

      Think about it this way: If a person does not understand basics about their printer, when the printer acts up they will probably be short-fused, right? Part of it is frustration and part of it is lack of knowledge of what to do.
      Show the person how to fix the problem, maybe teach them a couple pointers on printers and the next time it happens that same person is less likely to blow up.
      So keep growing your work skills set. Work on “knowing that you know”.

      Next. What are you reading this week? There are quite a few books out there- “How to Win Friends and Influence People”, books on how to have difficult conversations, how to deal with difficult people and so on. Grab something that makes sense to read. Finish it and pick out something else. Keep reading until you feel it starting to kick in and become ingrained in you.

      Last. Get yourself some role models. We cannot do what we don’t see around us. Pick out people you admire and watch how they handle tense conversations or even candid conversations. Decide that this is your new life habit. (Framing it as your new normal may help you to get in the swing of it a bit quicker.) I am still doing this, still watching how people say things and learning. I don’t expect to ever stop because more and more I see that there are very difficult situations all around me. Topics seem to get harder and harder.
      Practice in all parts of your life, practice at home, when you are out shopping or in a restaurant and practice when you answer the phone. Weave it into your entire life.
      You will probably win this one, I am willing to bet.

  64. Princess Carolyn*

    How bad is it that I need structure and clear procedures to succeed in a job? I am constantly worrying that my managers think I need too much hand-holding, and that I don’t know how to take initiative. Most of my jobs have been in functions I’ve never done before, and several (including my current job) have been roles that didn’t previously exist at that company — so I’m left to figure out a lot of stuff on my own. And I’m just not that good at teaching myself.

    How do I make this work and become someone who’s running the show instead of someone who’s always sitting around not knowing what to do?

    1. La Revancha*

      Oh gosh. I am the opposite of you. I would much rather figure things out on my own than have someone explain things to me. I actually get annoyed when I have someone explain something and it takes longer than 10 seconds.

      I think it’s just the way we are wired sometimes. Unless your managers seem annoyed I wouldn’t worry about it!

    2. stitchinthyme*

      I would say you just need time. You don’t say how long you’ve been there, but I always feel that way in every job when I start — sometimes for as long as 6 months to a year. Until I learn all the ins and outs of how things work and what needs to be done, I’m always asking my bosses what I can do next whenever I finish something, but eventually there comes a time when I know things well enough that I can tell what needs to be done without asking.

    3. fposte*

      How are you with self-created structure? I am so responsive to directions that I follow them even if I wrote them :-).

      But I also wonder if what you’re talking about isn’t a problem with succeeding in a situation without structure, it’s a problem with *knowing* you’ve succeeded. If so, I go back to the first question and ask about metrics rather than structure. Can you define your goals and then identify the steps to achieve them?

      I also say that there’s a learning curve on this, and that while it initially feels weird to say “I’m doing fine because I say so” you are likely to grow in confidence that your ability to support your narrative of success is solid.

      1. Princess Carolyn*

        Well, I’m trying to establish some self-created structure and having mixed results. My job is essentially to set up a content marketing program at a company that’s never done any content marketing before; I also have never done content marketing before. I’m also supposed to handle public relations, and I’ve never done public relations before. And then I do some other marketing copywriting, and I’ve done very little marketing copywriting before.

        So I do a lot of reading and writing and I have some ideas about what might work, but there’s nobody else to run things by. I don’t always anticipate PR opportunities the way I should. There is no existing strategy. We don’t have a website blog or any social media accounts for my content to live in. I feel like everyone wants me to just figure it out but I keep spending significant time on projects only to be told we’re going in a totally different direction, and it’s creating a lot of anxiety.

        Basically, I’m poring over tons of examples of content strategies and such but still struggling to adapt that to our business. I feel like I’m not a “self-starter” and I worry that will follow me forever.

        1. fposte*

          It sounds like you’re at a job that’s at the extreme self-starter edge in areas you don’t have much experience in. I wouldn’t consider it as revealing a major flaw that will haunt you for life.

          It’s true you might not have been the best fit for that situation, but I think that would be true of a lot of employees who excel in other situations. When I’ve hired for a really vague remit I do try to hire for people who are really comfortable with that, and that’s definitely not everybody (it’s not my strong suit either). That’s not a knock against those other employees.

          1. Princess Carolyn*

            I bet you’re right. There’s a dearth of writing/marketing talent in my area, which I think is why they hired me based entirely on transferable skills. I don’t know many people with actual experience doing what I do. And, for whatever reason, I keep getting hired for these kinds of roles, where no one around me really knows what they want or how to get that.

            I end up taking these questionable-fit positions because I don’t have enough money saved up to turn them down. So I’m trying to do a really good job in this current position so I can build up my portfolio and references (and money) and eventually take a more suitable role when one comes along.

            Of course, 90% of job listings out there have something like “self-motivated” in the requirements, so I may never fully stop stressing about this topic.

    4. Airedale*

      I used to work in PR. Its flexibility is both a blessing and a curse!

      I recommend asking your boss how you will measure your success with each client. Not “if they’re happy,” but like, numerically. (If they can’t answer this reasonably soon – red flag for your company! All clients want to see proof that they’re getting a return on their investment.) Then you can plan your own strategy to meet those metrics. (For example, a structured plan to increase the client’s number of followers on one social media platform)

      1. Princess Carolyn*

        Oh, see, that would be perfect but I’m in-house. I may still be able to get some gauge of what kind of coverage/distribution I should expect, though, because we previously had someone else handling this so there’s at least a precedent. I’ll make sure to talk to my manager (who is new, by the way!) and see if we can set an expectation based on that.

        With the content marketing, it’s more like… I know which metrics are important, but I have no earthly idea how to set specific number goals with it. At least that part of the issue can be put off for a bit.

        1. Airedale*

          Oh right, in-house would be different!

          I guess you could try mentioning to your boss that you’re motivated by having goals to meet, and asking if they could help you define what those are. It’s tough since they’re new, though. Maybe try to ask other management too.

  65. Nutella Jar*

    Just wanted to give an update since my post from a month ago: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/open-thread-june-30-july-1-2017.html#comment-1541700

    I ended up extending my last day two more days. Dad found out about my two-weeks notice two days after I had given it to my supervisor, and he threw a fit about it. He didn’t seem to think my two weeks was valid, and my supervisor had to step in to help me get in dad’s head that I was definitely leaving. Luckily after that there were no more arguments about it, and I have since then left my dad’s company.

    The day before my last day I created a brochure he wanted and sent it to him. After he looked at it, he said it would need days to revise it and asked if I could freelance for him. He’s insulted my work before, which my supervisor always found offensive, and in the past year of my employment, Dad would redo all my work himself without giving me feedback. I still haven’t told him that I won’t freelance for him. I don’t see the point of doing work for someone who thinks he could do a better job than I could.

    Yesterday, I moved, and now I’m temporary staying at my boyfriend’s. I have a second-round interview in two hours (yay!), and I’m going to start volunteering at a local writing center. I’ve been happier since I left my job. The move caused a lot of drama with my parents (keeping it short: they wanted my boyfriend to propose to me because they think you should only move cities if you’re getting married, asked a bunch of questions how I’m going to raise my kids when my boyfriend is a different religion, then ordered that I talk to a priest), but my aunts and uncles talked to my parents during our annual vacation, and now my mom is onboard with my move.

    Thank you everyone who gave me support and the encouragement to leave. I had a lot of doubts, but I know now that I’m making the right decisions for myself.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m glad your supervisor stood up for you. If designing for your dad has been that stressful in the past, I don’t think you should open yourself up to that kind of scrutiny now. Good luck with your interview!

    2. Snark*

      I’m SO GLAD to hear this. I’d politely reject the freelance proposal, keep them at arm’s length for a while, and enjoy some freedom and room to grow. And best of luck on the interview!

    3. Keladry of Mindelan*

      That’s great news! I’m so glad to hear that you’re out. Good luck with your interview!

    4. ginkgo*

      So happy for you! I remember your posts from previous weeks and was concerned for you – I’m just a rando on the internet haha, but I know what it’s like living with unreasonable parents, and I think things are going to be so much better for you now that you’re out. Good luck with your interview and wishing you all the best!

    5. RVA Cat*

      If you haven’t already, you should head over to CaptainAwkward.com for some good scripts for setting boundaries with your parents.

    6. Artemesia*

      Terrific news. I know of several cases of people whose lives were basically eaten up by their parents when they didn’t do what you have done. You are smart and brave to do this and I hope you have a wonderful life — and probably a better relationship with your folks when all is said and done. And kudos on not doing ‘freelancing’ — that is a way to just keep you under his thumb and pull you back in.

      1. Allie Oops*

        That’s my husband, and he’s in the thick of a terrible crisis, now realizing he lived his parents’ planned life for him instead of doing what he wanted. He’s bitter, angry, depressed, lost, and too old to start over in his dream job. Good for OP for nipping this in the bud.

    8. JustaTech*

      Congratulations! That’s wonderful. Internet high-fives!
      May you have good fortune in all your endeavors.

    9. Observer*

      I’m not sure what your father was thinking in terms of your two weeks not being “valid”. But it sounds like you made the right call.

  66. Mimmy*

    I have a related but separate question: Any grant writers or foundation employees in the house?

    Because I consider writing as a key strength, my VR counselor suggested I look into grant writing, or at least working at a foundation, perhaps as an editor. This is another area I’ve been exploring off-and-on over the years.

    Aside from a couple of grant writing courses, my only experience with grants is as a grant reviewer since 2012. The two committees with whom I serve as a reviewer are separate but in a way related: until a year or two ago, their application and scope of funding were very similar. So while I’ve never WRITTEN a grant, I’ve reviewed many grants (often from the same programs year after year), so I at least have an idea what a good vs. bad grant looks like.

    The only hang-up is my lack of understanding in some areas, such as budgets and program sustainability, because I’ve never been a program administrator (and have no interest in doing so). Also, when I review grants, I am most fascinated by the program development (statement of need, supporting research, program design) and program evaluation pieces. I LOVE doing site visits, despite my challenge in getting to these sites (can’t drive).

    Any thoughts? I know grant writing can be brutal because of multiple deadlines and it involves developing relationships in-and outside of your organization. As for foundations, what are the typical career options? Do I need grant writing experience to work for a foundation?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I think to work at a foundation, programmatic experience is more important, but don’t quote me on that, as I have never worked on that side of the equation.

      The amount of hands-on budgeting done by the proposal writer varies wildly by organization, in my experience, but even if you are responsible for putting the numbers in the spreadsheet, you should be developing the budget in partnership with the program person, if not just getting the numbers from them.

      If you don’t like working to deadline, foundation relations may not be for you, but your experience as a reviewer would be very attractive to many nonprofits.

      Good luck!

    2. SL #2*

      There’s a local grant-making network here that hosts an annual “Fundamentals of Effective Grant-Making” course. I sat through it, despite being a grantee in some respects, and it really helped me see behind the curtain, and in turn, see what a really good application looks like and what grant-makers want to see when they send out RFPs. There’s also a couple hours dedicated to reasonable budgets and why overhead cost isn’t the worst thing in the world. Is something like that available in your area?

      I also don’t know your educational background, but grant evaluation on its own is becoming really popular too; is that an option?

      1. Mimmy*

        I have an MSW and a graduate certificate in disability studies (similar to other identity studies, e.g. women’s studies, Jewish studies, etc).

        Once in a while, I’ll come across a call for reviewers, but I think they’ve been at the state or federal level and require significant experience. It’s definitely something I’d consider though (in fact, any opportunity that involves evaluation would be of interest.)

        1. SL #2*

          So I work in the healthcare grant-making field (think Community Benefit work from Kaiser Permanente and Blue Shield, for example) and I know for a fact that grant evaluators are always in high demand in those specific niches, either as employees or as consultants. Maybe there’s similar opportunities in your field? It’s easier with bigger foundations with large amounts of money, though…

    3. Mimmy*

      Thank you to those who’ve responded so far! I was just talking with my mom and she agrees that I should definitely be writing.

      As a follow-up: Aside from grant writing, what other types of jobs might emphasize writing skills? My background is in social work, human services, and accessibility. The only other things I can think of that don’t require a communications degree are policy analysis and research.

  67. anonfornow*

    I’m desperate to get out of my current job and am at the point where I’m considering taking anything that will pay the bills just to leave. But will this be a big set back for my career, long term?

    The details: Graduated college during the recession, bounced around some retail to get by and then took the first office job that would take me. I didn’t love the field, but it paid the bills and I could tolerate it. Stayed there about 4 years. I eventually realized what I really wanted to do, and left to pursue that. I took a pay cut and got an entry level job in the new field to get my foot in the door (my previous job was pretty entry level as well so it wasn’t a huge jump). I’ve been at current job two years and at first enjoyed it, but due to changes in the company it’s become unbearable. I dread coming to work everyday, and have already fantasized about walking out 3 times today.

    Ideally I’d like to find another job in this field because I enjoy it. Overall I like the industry, and there are a few companies in it that would be dream job material. But there are only so many openings, and it could take a while to find something. On the other hand, I could just apply to anything that will pay the bills to get out of here and find something sooner. If I did that, I would have to stay there some time to avoid looking like a job hopper. So I would find myself in my early 30’s with a resume filled with loosely related, lower level office jobs with no definable career direction. How bad is that?

    I don’t have lofty aspirations of being a CEO, but I would like to live a comfortable life and end up in a mid to upper management level job in this industry (if I could end up at one of the Dream Companies great, but if not this overall industry is still my preference). Realistically, how hard would taking a detour now make it for me to get back on path to get where I want to be?

    1. babblemouth*

      Give yourself a deadline (4 months, 6 months, that’s up to you) at which date you want to be out.
      Start applying to the few Dream Jobs, and then halfway to your deadline, expand your search to Jobs That Will Pay The Bills.
      Having a deadline will help you distance yourself a bit from what is difficult about your job, and it’s a nice mental trick to push yourself.

      2. anonfornow*

        This helps a lot. I’ve done soft mental deadlines in the past, but they’ve all come and gone because I didn’t have a plan for what to do when the date was approaching and I still hadn’t found something. But I think this is a good approach, thanks.

  68. Victoria, Please*

    Higher ed people (or anyone else!), what’s your take: Who should pay for online exam monitoring services? The university or the students?

    I have a faculty member with an online course who finds that when she uses a monitoring service, exam cheating is essentially not a problem. When she doesn’t use the service, nearly *half* of the students *admit* to cheating (meaning that more probably do). The service costs the students about $15 an exam, and obviously they deeply hate it. Having the university pay for the service would cost less per head per exam, but pretty expensive.

    So…the university has an interest in ensuring the integrity of exams. But the students are the people doing the cheating. Who should pay?

    1. Lynne879*

      If the university really cared that much about preventing students from cheating on online exams, they would pay for it.

      Why would a student pay for something that will give them a disadvantage on a good grade on an exam?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. If the university cares about the integrity of their program, then they should pay the fee. My fear is that someone will blab that they cheated on all their exams, there will be a media frenzy, and then the program will be devalued. Students will get upset that their degree has now become worthless. I’ve actually wondered why this hasn’t already happened with universities that allow unmonitored testing.

    2. katamia*

      The university should pay. Students are overcharged enough as it is, and as someone who doesn’t cheat on exams, I would deeply resent being forced to pay for this service because some of my peers can’t be trusted.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      But the students are the people doing the cheating.

      Well, half of the students are cheating. The other half are being asked to pay in order to catch the cheaters, which is in the university’s best interest, not theirs.

      1. Snark*

        Arguably, if your institution is known for cheating, it devalues your degree – making this in their best interest, not the university’s. Tuition gets paid regardless.

        The university should still pay, because lazy-assed tests are usually the easiest to cheat on and if you’re gonna shovel out Scantron exams based on chapters of the textbook, preventing cheating is on you.

    4. Red Reader*

      As a student: I think that monitoring services are creepy and invasive and nowhere near as effective as instructors would like to think they are. If my instructors told me that I had to pay money out of my pocket to have someone watch me through a webcam because the test is written in such a fashion that I could just look up the answers in the book without having learned anything in the class and still pass it*, I’d be transferring to a new school.

      *Seriously. This isn’t a cheating problem, this is a poorly written test problem.

        1. Red Reader*

          Similarly, attendance policies. If I can learn all the material I need to pass a class without attending it, that’s not a well-taught class, and an arbitrary “you’re going to lose five points for every day your butt isn’t in a seat” isn’t going to solve that problem either. If you want your students to be in class and engaged, teach the class in such a fashion that they have to be in class and engaged to succeed. If you want to know that they understand the material, test them in a way that engages with their understanding of the material, not whether they can regurgitate the contents of the textbook back to you.

          1. Victoria, Please*

            Again, I’m right on board with you. However, a genuinely well-built class like that is going to demand considerably more attention and effort on the part of the student as well as the professor.

            How do you recommend a faculty member respond when students say, “This is not fair. I’m paying you to teach me. In the other section they don’t have to do all this work. I’m giving you a low evaluation.”

            1. HannahS*

              Well, you can’t stop students from giving bad evaluations for stupid reasons. But faculty can say something like, “I can’t speak for other sections or professors. The work that I asked you to do was designed to get students to engage with the material on a deep level, and all of the assignments were described in the syllabus at the beginning of the course.”
              But really, while “I’m paying you to teach me” is whiny and childish, the other complaint speaks to one of the problems in higher education. It isn’t fair that two sections of the same course are being taught the material and being evaluated in different ways. That’s a legitimate concern.

            2. TL -*

              You say, “My section of the course is set up so a passing grade reflects an understanding of the material at a collegiate level.”

          2. HannahS*

            SO MUCH YES. It used to drive me up the wall. I used to look around the room of 150 people and think, we’ve got a bunch of people with jobs, with kids, with illness, with other responsibilities, and sometimes they outweigh attending class. Why is that punishable? What relationship does that have to education?

    5. The IT Manager*

      It’s the university’s responsibility.

      And I suddenly understand why my online degree program had almost all open book tests when there was tests instead of papers). They saved money on exam monitoring by allowing you to look things up.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Higher ed employee here. This is 100% on the university. If the school is serious about preventing students from cheating, it should pay for this service.

    7. NoMoreMrFixit*

      I worked in the IT department of a university supporting distance education. Quizzes were online. Tests and exams had to be written either at the university like a regular scheduled exam or for remote students they could arrange something locally. Various options used were testing centres at nearby schools, having someone from HR/management proctor them at work, and in at least one case a student serving overseas in the army was administered the test by a senior officer. This policy came right from the top and was enforced strongly. Too many problems with cheating otherwise.

    9. HannahS*

      University. I’m honestly appalled that the professor thinks it’s ok to make students pay for it; proctoring exams is part of the cost of running a course. In a in-person course, I didn’t have to fork over the wages of the people walking up and down the aisles during exams. The university already absorbs and redistributes the differing costs of courses–a lab-based course costs way more than lecture-based course, but biology 101 doesn’t cost more than philosophy 101. They should absorb this, too.

    2. ThatGirl*

      That was one recommendation made by Right Management when I was using them that I gave some Very Serious Side-Eye to.

    3. Delta Delta*

      That feels very 2010. (Or whatever year people were trying to use those. It feels like ages ago.)

  70. Lynne879*

    Is there any advice you guys can give me on how to encourage a friend who’s been unemployed for 2 years to go job searching?

    Backstory: My friend left college after 1 year because of a horrible roommate experience; she then got a job at a grocery store which she worked at for 3 years. 2 years ago, her father passed away suddenly; she left her job temporarily because of her father’s death, but never went back.

    She’s been unemployed (by choice I believe) for 2 years and has basically become a hikikomori (If you don’t know what it is, see this wikipedia page–> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori). She has not done any sort of volunteering or anything that can answer the “So what have you done since you left your job?” question.

    I haven’t really encouraged her to apply anywhere because I imagine she hears so much from her family, but I’m starting to get even more worried since her income is limited. How can I encourage my friend to apply for jobs?

    1. katamia*

      Short answer: You can’t.

      Long answer: If you have a close enough relationship with her, you might be able to encourage her to see a therapist or job counselor or something, although nothing may come of that. And you really can’t bring it up often, so if you’ve mentioned it recently, I don’t think you can do it again. But she has to be motivated to do it herself.

      I’m pretty sure I remember an AAM column about this, but I don’t remember enough about it to be able to search for it.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      I agree with katamia. When she gets to the point where she needs the job more than she doesn’t want to job search, she’ll get a job. That point may be not being able to pay for the video games she wants (just an example), or it may be when she’s about to be homeless because she can’t pay rent, but either way you can’t force her.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Could you encourage her to volunteer or consider some part time study, first? It might be less intimidating for her, and might mean that she doesn’t feel hounded by you as well as her family.

  71. ms-dos efx*

    I’ve been trying to get rehired at a former employer (in a different department than I had been in), and I finally got an interview last week! I think it went well. It was shorter than I expected because they will be doing second rounds next week. Fingers crossed…

  72. Fake Eleanor*

    This situation ended up resolving itself, but I thought it would be a good Ask a Manager question:

    I’ve been freelancing for the last year and a half or so. Recently an agency contacted me about a temporary role, working 25-40 hours a week (variable) with a large client through the end of the year. I talked to the hiring manager; that went well and I was scheduled to talk with two possible colleagues.

    In the first of those interviews, the person I was talking with noted that I’d been freelancing and asked if I would have any other clients during the time I was working with them.

    I answered that I wasn’t planning to have other clients if I was working with them, although if it turned out that the hours were closer to 30 per week it was possible I’d take smaller side projects. Regardless, they’d be my top priority and have my exclusive attention during hours I was scheduled and working for them.

    I wanted to answer that it wasn’t really any of their business, though I just rolled with it. (They’ll be paying me hourly.) And my recruiter confirmed later that I was totally welcome to take other clients simultaneously, if it comes up. (And it probably will — things have been leaner than I’d like this summer and I’m willing to work 50-60 hours a week for a few months if things work out.)

    My question: What’s the best way to handle that question, particularly when (unlike at a salaried position, where there can be rules about second jobs) there’s no conflict involved?

    1. Fake Eleanor*

      (Note: One reason I think this came up is that the interviewer thought I was coming in in a different role that’s going to be more regularly 40 hours a week, and offer them a lot more gruntwork backup, so I could understand their concern even though I still thought the question wasn’t really their business.)

    2. CM*

      It seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me. Why isn’t it their business, if they may be hiring you for up to 40 hours per week? They want to know what your other commitments are like to gauge your availability to work with them. And I think your answer was just right.

      1. Fake Eleanor*

        Because it’s contract, hourly work, and if I agree to work 40 hours for them I’ll work 40 hours for them. They have zero claim on my time outside of that — whether I’m taking other clients or taking care of my sick relatives or marathoning Netflix.

        If they want to know if I can commit to 40 hours, that’s a valid question.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      They might have been asking to determine how they needed to set you up for tax. In the UK, for example, having no other clients would make it risky to pay you as a freelancer and not on payroll.

  73. Buffy*

    Background: I am the new manager of two interns, in a role that focuses primarily on writing and editing.

    One of my interns is a very nice, sweet person. But when she submits her drafts, they can be all over the place. In the beginning, I did a lot of hacking on the editing side and massaging the story to get it where it needs to be. I figured that was my job, and god knows when I was in college I didn’t have the skillset I do now so I thought I was being helpful (track changes so she can see, etc.)

    But the most recent story, when she submitted it, she told me it was “kind of all over the place” and that she could send me her notes from the interviews to see if there’s anything else to add. When reading it, there was a ton of missing information, most of it didn’t make sense, and she just listed quotes at the bottom for me to “include somewhere.”

    That frustrated me a lot. On one hand, if she’s struggling with a story, I want to help. But in her future career, she really needs to know a writer doesn’t cobble something together and throw it to the editor to write. I realize there needs to be A Conversation. There is also the issue that her writing portfolio will not really be indicative of her skills, since I’m doing the heavy lifting and, if contacted for a future job reference, I’d struggle with how to respond. Everyone here is super good at framing those conversations, so I’d appreciate any guidance!

    1. Fake Eleanor*

      A few things I’d make sure you cover, even though they seem pretty basic for writers/editors:
      1) Make sure she understands the difference between editing and proofreading, and that she’s clear on what level of feedback you expect to be giving her.
      2) Explain that she should not be turning in her first draft — at the very least she should do a draft, then do a full second draft revision. Ideally she would be turning in something that she’d be comfortable seeing published as-is, even if that’s not realistic.
      3) If she’s struggling with a story, ask for feedback or suggestions earlier than when she turns in that first shareable draft.
      4) If she knows a draft isn’t working, don’t just throw up her hands — come to you with some ideas for how she could improve it.

      As you point out, really, she needs to better understand the publishing workflow. She’ll have an easier time in her career if she’s able to consistently turn in clean, usable copy, and not create extra work for her editors. Obviously, it’s an editor’s job to edit, but it’s not their job to spin straw into gold.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think there are a couple things to address:

      1. if she’s struggling, you need her to talk to you early on enough that you can help identify areas of struggle and ways that she can help herself to improve. Hopefully you’ll identify patterns of mistakes and consistent areas that need improvement so that she can focus her attention on specific areas.

      2. you need to clarify with her how “done” the product should be when she hands it to you. “When you submit an article to me, I need it to be 95% of the way there. The last few submissions you’ve sent me have been closer to 40%. This is not acceptable. As the editor, it’s my job to tweak the article, but I cannot completely rewrite it for you.”

      3. she clearly doesn’t have the skillset you need her to have. Can you give her some practice assignments so that she can work on improving her skills?

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you need to set expectations for her. Clearly, her work isn’t where you need it to be. You may have done her a disservice by not being blunt with her in past, but you can course correct. I would start with a meeting and explain that you’re not mad or upset, but that you need more polished work from her.

      When I’ve worked with interns on things like this, I’ve said, “I have some concerns about the level of editing that had to be done on your stories for () and (). For you to be successful in this industry, your pieces need to be more polished when they are turned in for proof reading. So, starting with () story, I’m expecting () and ().”

      Now to keep her from panicking, I would advise setting a deadline and scheduling a meeting for her to show you what she has already and you can answer her questions on how to go from bad product to good product. She doesn’t know how to do that right now, and you may need to hold her hand a bit.

      But after a while, you will stop holding her hand, so make that clear as well.

    4. Amtelope*

      I agree with other folks that this is about setting expectations. There are some situations where I would throw a messy draft on paper and hand it off to a coworker so that we can collaborate on content before we start cleaning up style. This isn’t one of those situations — it sounds like you expect her to submit a reasonably finished product and that your ideal would be doing only light editing, or only proofreading. I think it will help to explain that explicitly, including “I am your editor, not your co-writer” and “If you think the story is still ‘all over the place’ or may need more information included, you need to do that yourself before submitting it. Your job is to give me your best effort at a finished product.”

      1. Buffy*

        Everyone has really good suggestions. Something that came to me as I was mulling this over (since she is a college student) framing it as “The draft needs to be at the same level as a submitted assignment.” I mean, I can’t imagine she would do that for a term paper?

    5. LQ*

      When you hacked it up and edited it did you sit down and explain why? Have you pushed any of them back to her to have her rework based on notes? Like try fixing x, y, and z and actually pushing the work back to her to have her take another shot at it? Especially if you can explain the reasons why you are doing things. If she thinks that her job is only to pull the research and interviews and you’re going to do the final writing and you’re not pushing it back to her to do then it might just be that she thinks her job is different right now.

      1. Buffy*

        I should have made it more clear. The first few stories were just not written at the level that we needed, so I changed wording, moved things around, added more exposition, etc. I thought that would be more helpful because my feedback at that point would have been something like, “Become a better writer?”

        But the quality has come down from that.

    6. H.C.*

      This surely wouldn’t fly as a college essay (here’s a disjointed paper, and some ‘extra’ stuff at the bottom I can’t squeeze in anywhere else) why would she think it’s OK here?

      Anyhoo… I agree with others about setting expectations, and for this particularly paper I would send it back w/o edits and ask her to develop the draft further or rewrite it, since it’s nowhere near a final, presentable stage.

      Also, you mentioned giving her edits/notes via track changes – have you done some live in-person edits sessions with her (with you making the edits in realtime, and explaining to her why you made them)? They are more time-consuming, but also immensely helpful (at least, base on my early journalism experience,) and a few sessions can significantly improve her writing (or at least, an understanding of why you made the changes you did.)

      1. Buffy*

        I think that may be one of my next moves…I just personally don’t do well with them because when I’m writing or editing, I need to kind of be in a silo and have an internal debate. I find it difficult to write “out loud” I guess.

        1. H.C.*

          Yeah, I’m an introverted writer/editor too; an alternative may be making all your edits first, then asking her to come over and explain why you made them (instead of realtime editing with her seated next to you)

    7. Artemesia*

      It looks like she has figured out you will do the work if she just drops the ball. I’d sit her down and have a CTJM, hand the material back and make clear that you expect a finished product that is good enough to go to a client. You will then provide specific editorial feedback so she can improve her skills and the product will in fact be ready for use. Some interns and junior associates have a thermostat set at ‘professional’ and you can rely on them to do their best and to improve. Others will do shoddy work and expect you to complete it. Your job is to reset her quality thermostat and in this case it looks like you have to be very explicit about this. It is never appropriate to hand an editor or boss ‘notes’ and cobbled together copy; it always needs to be the best you can do and ready for use.

      1. Buffy*

        Yeah, I think it may be coming from a general underestimation of her own skills. (Hopefully not laziness or malice.) I kind of want to bring the message of “You CAN do this.” with a subtler tone of “OK, you really NEED to though.”

    8. Ramona Flowers*

      Could you work with her on structure and planning – all the stuff she should be doing before she writes?

    9. Ramona Flowers*

      Also, stop doing the changes for her. Send it back with requests for her to make changes and if necessary talk through them with her. That’s how you learn!

    10. Princess Carolyn*

      1. A checklist of must-have information might be useful, especially if there are certain types of information that are crucial to your field that may not be universal. For example, in a student newspaper it might be the style to list a subject’s class year, so you’d put that on a college newspaper checklist but not necessarily on the national political magazine checklist. And then I’d throw in Who, Where, What, When, and Why, even though that should be obvious. It’s not that she doesn’t know these things belong in her writing; it’s that she (in my assessment) is having a hard time keeping track of whether she covered all her bases. The reference helps that.

      2. If time allows, go through her first draft and simply ask questions like “Where did this info come from?” or “What’s the context of this?” or “Is there any data to back this up?” Things savvy readers would ask themselves. Then have her fix these herself instead of doing it for her. Consider adjusting her deadlines to allow for this, if possible. It takes longer than doing it yourself, but it’s far more useful to her.

      3. Uhh yeah, having a conversation to introduce these two concepts is a good idea. Maybe phrase it as “You’ve mentioned a few times that your stories are all over the place, so I thought we could talk about organization and figure out a plan to help you with that.” Depending on how she reacts, you may even be able to work on the checklist collaboratively so she can start to make those connections in her brain and have the reference for later.

    11. deesse877*

      Sometimes college students don’t process feedback the way that professionals expect. Especially, they often fail to internalize criticism–meaning, they frequently don’t say to themselves “I need to change” when something goes badly. Instead, they tend to think either “The process needs to change” or [worse] “It’s not that bad anyways, the boss is just busting my chops because that is what bosses do.” It can be a maturity or entitlement thing, but mostly…they just don’t get it.

      Your intern might be trying to change process by giving you less-finished work (on the theory that it is easier to alter that way), or she might literally not realize that she is **failing** at something, and **disappointing** you. Either way, directness is super-good, as other people have been saying. She can also benefit a great deal from models–like, “here is an excellent draft that so-and-so did last week. You can see that I only made two cuts and corrected a misspelling. This is what you need to aim for.”

    12. Chaordic One*

      I almost hate to say this, but maybe you could give her a quick refresher course in about half an hour, just telling her that she needs to go back to providing the basic “who, where, what, why” kind of things and building from that. It might help if you could point out what was good in the samples she submitted to get the internship, and in the first pieces she turned in. Then point out what she needs to be providing that she currently isn’t.

      I think I’m basically saying what the other contributors have said, but maybe from a slightly different angle.

  74. Corporate Tech Drone*

    This is 80% a gripe rather than a question, but there is this one guy at my job who complains about millennials constantly. He spends at least 20-30 minutes every day telling me how lazy everyone under 40 is, how no one will buy his home because kids are too lazy and don’t work enough to afford homes anymore, and how I must be so excited to go on vacation, and back in his day people worked hard and his parents didn’t have to worry about Social Security…

    The most annoying part is that he pauses at specific points and waits for me to laugh. Meanwhile I’m trying to get productive work done, not be his captive audience.

    I’m not offended, just annoyed. This seriously happens every single morning, for at least 20 minutes.

      1. Corporate Tech Drone*

        He’s also delivering his “Ha ha! Everyone younger than me sucks!” standup routine to everyone else who sits around my general area too, and they usually give him some half hearted laughter. If not, it’s something about how everyone else thinks he’s the funniest person ever and he’s gonna go into standup once he retires.

        I’m the youngest person here by like 10 years and I’m not offended by what he says, but it gets tedious losing half an hour of my day to hearing variants of “kids these days suck because they’re not buying houses!”

        1. katamia*

          If you know for a fact other people are also bothered by it, maybe you could try seeing if they’re willing to n0t-laugh with you.

          If not, I’d recommend noise-cancelling headphones if allowed or, if you have work that takes you away from your desk, trying to schedule that during his “comedy.”

          I know you’re not offended, but someone else could be (I know you’re the youngest, but if any of your coworkers have millennial kids who are working hard, they might be offended). If your HR or boss or whoever handles these types of things is good, you could try bringing it up with them. If it’s really important to you for your boss/HR/coworkers/whoever to know you’re not offended, you could make a point that his behavior could be offensive to other younger workers you might hire in the future.

          The troll in me recommends heckling him so he can get used to hecklers before starting his standup comedy career, but, er, don’t do that.

        2. Temperance*

          I’m kind of abrasive, so I would probably make a comment like “well, maybe your house sucks” and then laugh at my own joke.

          1. Corporate Tech Drone*

            I considered saying something, but I’m the new guy here and I don’t want my coworkers’ first impression of me to be “he was a jackass to Old Ranting Guy for no reason.”

    2. Snark*

      Depends on how much you want to piss him off. You could just not laugh when he pauses for the laugh track. You could say, “I really don’t want to discuss your opinion of millennials, and I’m kind of insulted by what you say.”

      Or you could say “You’ve been coming here to jaw at me every day for half an hour, so who’s the lazy one, again?”

      Guys like this bug the living crap out of me.

      1. Corporate Tech Drone*

        I’m not bothered by the content z bedauae I’m in a very solid financial position for someone of any age. It’s just that “what’s the deal with student loans? I’m still paying off my son’s, and he sicks” is incredibly unfunny the first 100 times, and don’t ask me how it sounds after that.

        I usually just put headphones on, because I’m sure he’d take even light joking like “you’re gonna need the pension, because no one’s gonna pay to hear your jokes” will probably set him off

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      kids are too lazy and don’t work enough to afford homes anymore

      the irony of him taking up your time when you could be working to bitch about this amazes me.

      1. Corporate Tech Drone*

        I left out the best part. He’s mid to late 60s, and always talks about how many days he has left to “show up” before he can retire.

        I’d assume it were irony of some sort if he weren’t both so sincere and so unfunny.

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      I would completely ignore him. If he addresses you directly, then you can say, “I’m sorry, were you talking to me? I was trying to get some work done.” And then, “I’m sorry, I don’t have time to chat now, I’m pretty busy with work.”

      But you might have to get the other people in his captive audience (literally) on board, otherwise he’ll just redirect his attentions to them.

    5. Elisabeth*

      This would drive me insane. Every generation has an issue with the generation after them. It’s infuriating that this guy is rambling on like this while you are actually working. I guess next time you could be like, “Yes, the children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.” OH WAIT, that’s a quote attributed to Socrates. Which shows how long this nonsense has been going on.

      Sending you strength…

    6. GigglyPuff*

      I would really want to start talking about how “baby boomers” are actually screwing up the housing market in places, for “millennials”. Because they are now downsizing out of bigger homes into the homes younger people would typically buy, driving the prices up for smaller homes and leaving bigger homes empty. That’s what I’ve read anyway.

      Sigh, but I wouldn’t be confident enough to do that.

    7. fposte*

      You can also cheerfully say, “Actually, that’s not my experience with millennials and I don’t agree. But yeah, sucks to have a house hang on the market. Gotta dive into those reports now, bye!”

    8. Artemesia*

      How about ‘you know, Bob, I really don’t agree with you. In my experience millennials have been dealt a really rotten hand with ridiculous student loan expenses that we didn’t have to face and a terrible economy and lousy salaries and I am impressed with how many of them have coped with that.’

      Might cause him to take it somewhere else.

    9. HannahS*

      I don’t know that it would work with someone this determined to insult you to your face, but one highly non-confrontational way of shutting down idle chatter is to cut them off with, “Sorry John, I really need to concentrate. Is there anything you need from me right now?” Then when they say “No, not really, but–” I go, “Great! Ok, well, let me know if you need anything.”

      1. Corporate Tech Drone*

        There’s something pretty messed up with a guy who complains about his son to anonymous strangers.

    10. Lone Rhino*

      I don’t know why but these types of comments really irritate me. I hated them in my twenties and now that I’m approaching fifty they still bug me.

      If you’re sarcastic like me, a good response is something like
      “You kids with your rock & roll and your hula hoops are gonna ruin society. Get off my lawn! Blah, Blah, Blah.”

    11. Not So NewReader*

      “Bob, you say these things every morning. Let’s talk about something else.”

      “Bob, I am sorry that your house is not selling. Perhaps your realtor has some advice. I really can’t help you.”

      “Yes, Bob, and your parents’ generation complained about your generation. Remember how awful that felt?”

  75. Question on women being 'too nice'*

    The question the other day about ‘social awkward Fergus’ reminded me of something I’ve been wondering for a while. People say that women are taught to be nicer, more polite, etc. than men. I don’t doubt this, and I (a woman) have often been an example of someone who is too nice. But I am just wondering — when does this different teaching for girls and boys take place? I don’t think girls and boys are separated in school for different lessons on politeness. And I don’t really remember being told to ‘be nicer’ either, and yet I certainly got the message at some point. Has anyone ever pinned down when and how this is happening? Everything I find on google just says that it happens but doesn’t really explain.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      These sorts of things happen on a subtle level. For example, when I was working day care in high school the head of the classroom would often praise boys for their leadership skills, while telling girls not to be bossy. It was something I didn’t even notice until years later when I was reading about the term “bossy.”

      I’m not sure there’s a specific moment that this socialization happens, but it certainly happens in many tiny ways throughout our childhoods.

    2. Squeeble*

      I think we’re also taught that niceness/politeness is more natural or ingrained in girls, and more unnatural for boys. So a lot of it is just (subconsciously or otherwise) being like “I’m a woman, of course I’m going to be polite.” This is why seeing the phrase “sugar and spice and everything nice” on toys and clothes for girls irritates me–it just reinforces the notion that we’re built that way, and boys aren’t.

    3. Fake Eleanor*

      I always find it interesting that this is usually framed as “women are taught to be too nice” rather than “men aren’t taught to be nice enough.” I’d prefer it if men were encouraged to be more polite … but if you’re a woman, obviously, you don’t get to control men’s behavior.

      (And to be clear, men don’t get to control women’s behavior; we all just have control of our own actions.)

      1. Squeeble*

        Definitely agree with this! In general, we think of men’s behaviors/proclivities as point zero, from where women stray too far in one direction or another.

      2. CM*

        YES, this. When I went to the Women’s March in Washington DC, I was worried about being safe in the giant crowds. But I found that in this majority-women space, I felt very safe. I saw strangers moving aside for each other, picking each other up when they fell down, and offering help without being asked. For the first time I realized that, after all the years of being told that I should act more like a man if I wanted to succeed, the world would be better if men were taught to act more like women.

      3. GreyNerdShark*

        My grandfather (a decorated war veteran and senior officer) told his son that the most important thing he could teach his newborn baby boy was good manners. Good manners would carry him through all places and classes and social situations.

    4. Charlene*

      I think a lot of it comes from subtle reactions and consequences. I think people are more concerned when girls aren’t nice than when boys aren’t nice. This can be expressed very clearly or very subtly. They might even just act more surprised if a girl isn’t polite than they do if a boy isn’t polite. You might pick it up from how the people around you behave.

    5. Amber Rose*

      I don’t know. I was having more or less this same conversation on Captain Awkward, where she posted that story about the women who went on a date with a knight, and I recalled the time I went on a group date with a ghost hunting sorcerer (yes, really), and other people had similar kinds of stories and none of us left because… “politeness.”

      I think it probably has something to do with being kids and girls being told to be more ladylike, while boys climb trees and are chaotic and are smiled at indulgently because boys will be boys. TV and other media is also a huge factor. Consider how girls and boys are portrayed in kids’ shows. That message is subtle, but it is picked up.

      On my part at least, I was often discouraged from playing with toy cars and other “toys for boys.” And I was discouraged from continuing soccer past the youngest bracket because “the boys will be bigger and rougher.” And at some point I know I started to internalize myself as being the opposite of what a boy is.

    6. FDCA In Canada*

      I think it comes in on a pretty subtle level beginning in preschool, probably–think of the ways girls are taught “sit still and be quiet” and then praised for doing so, while boys are excused for being rowdy with “boys will be boys.” Girls are made of sugar and spice and everything “nice,” boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails. Girls are sparkles, glitter, fairy princesses, frilly dresses, and art projects, while boys are Legos, sports, knocking down block towers, constantly muddy, and rowdy. Take a cruise through Pinterest for “boys” or “mom of boys” for plenty of “Boy: a noise with dirt on it” and look at “girls” for lots of schlock about sweetness and being the light of her parents’ lives.

      Further on in school, girls are frequently praised for their ability to be friends, to be quiet and well-behaved in school, and encouraged not to make a ruckus. “Fergus is just teasing you because he likes you,” or similar events are brushed off as puppy love or not worth of making a fuss over, and so girls learn–pretty quickly–not to bother. Boys are praised for their assertiveness, for their achievements on sports teams, for being confident and outspoken.

      These differences begin at a very young age and they are incredibly difficult to root out at the source, and the difference grows worse and worse over the years of primary/secondary school, when you really start to see the beginnings of academic disparity that influence to a major degree the type of work and college choices kids make. (This is the “girls aren’t good at math” trope.) The social differences start really picking up speed as kids hit puberty, too–since girls tend to mature faster socially than boys, they’re praised for being nice, for helping everyone to get along, for being friends and improving the social cohesiveness of the classroom. It’s easy to sublimate this into a “go along to get along” or “just be nice because everyone likes it when you’re nice” mental picture, and once that’s locked into the head in adolescence it’s hard to get out of.

      1. Government Worker*

        I wonder about this a lot – I have pre-school age boy/girl twins, and I try to respond similarly to bad behavior from each of them, but I wonder how often I tell each of them “How do you think your brother/sister feels when you do that?” or “did you tell tell him/her that he/she hurt your feelings?” or “When he/she says no, that means you need to stop.” It’s easy to imagine that I tell my daughter to apologize more than my son, or tell her to consider his feelings more often than I tell him to consider hers, or to encourage my son more than my daughter to stand up against unwanted roughhousing, even if I’m trying hard to be evenhanded.

      2. Natalie*

        Earlier than preschool, I’d say. This kind of gendered socialization starts pretty much immediately, and a lot of it is subconscious.

        There was a kind of interesting study a few years ago in which adults listened to recordings of babies crying and their reactions and assumptions were recorded. Even though there’s no sex-based difference in vocal pitch among babies, the adults made assumptions about the babies’ sex or masculinity/femininity based on vocal pitch.

    7. Snark*

      I don’t think it’s anything explicit and “taught.” I think it’s often how girls model their behavior on women, how a girl gets reacted to if she is “bossy” or abrupt, how girls in media act, and frankly I think men tend to act as if politeness is due them, with an implicit threat.

      Same thing happens to guys, just with other traits.

    8. Xarcady*

      I think a lot of the training to act a certain way happens way before a child gets to school. I was the only girl in a family of 6 boys. I could do exactly the same thing as my brothers–they would get praise or a neutral treatment; I stood a good chance of getting scolded.

      One time, my brother came over and took a toy I was playing with. I grabbed it back, he grabbed it, and, well, we started fighting over it. My mother came in, handed the toy to my brother, and sat me down for a little talk on how I shouldn’t want to get my own way so much. I needed to consider the other person’s feelings, and make things nice for them.

      I was 5. I remember shouting, “But why can’t I get my own way? Ned is getting *his* own way! He’s got the truck! Why is his way better than my way?” And also, “So when do other people have to consider *my* feelings? The boys *never* do, but you are always telling me I have to!”

      Can we say double standard? Can we say my mother was completely baffled because I wouldn’t/didn’t accept that as a girl/woman, I needed to put my brothers’ needs/wants before mine? I sure as heck did not buy her line about women needing to be the peacemakers, and needing to put men’s needs before mine.

      1. TL -*

        I have three brothers and while for the most part my parents didn’t bother too much differentiating the girl from the boys, every now and then it pops up exactly like that – Why aren’t you being more polite? “because my brother is being an ass.” “Well, that’s just the way he is.”

        Okay. I’ll speak to him when he’s different.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        This here sums it up pretty good. I was left with the impression that boys can’t learn to be nice or learn to have self-control, etc. I got that impression through many subtle messages. The punchline was that adults felt boys cannot be controlled.

        This is actually a slam against men/boys. I could not figure out why people did not understand it was an insult.

    9. Purple snowdrop*

      I’ve heard that all being equal, parents tend to pick up baby girls from the floor quicker than they pick up baby boys.

      I’m very feminist and was adamant that I wouldn’t treat my son ‘like a boy’ but from the day he was born I found myself doing so. It’s really subtle.

    10. LCL*

      You are taught by the reactions of authority figures to situations you are in. The reaction happens in the moment, you don’t realize until you grow up that there is a pattern. Here’s the earliest example I remember from real life.
      Me. Kindergarten. Thought I would show I was as adventurous as the older kids, so hung by my knees from the top bar of the playground equipment (5 feet, approx.) Fell and landed on my head, I must have rolled to my side a bit because I didn’t get that hurt, just banged up and a lump on my head. Dumb luck that nobody was watching. I went, crying and rubbing my head, to the principal who was on the playground. He checked me over and told me I was fine and to go play. I learned from that experience not to make a fuss if you got hurt because of your own actions, because nobody else cared.

    11. Artemesia*

      Boys are consistently given approval when they are aggressive and ambitious and girls are consistently given disapproval. I remember two toddlers years ago. The little boy was rather quiet and gentle and every time he did anything slightly aggressive he got a lot of attaboy and he is ‘all boy’ comments. The little girl was athletic and boisterous and got a lot of ‘be ladylike’ feedback and was constantly pushed towards the tea sets and dolls.

      This training starts super early. I have done content analysis of textbooks for gradeschoolers and even 20 years ago the books portrayed women in passive roles and men in active roles.

      And we all know in the workplace that well regarded men take charge and show initiative and are forceful, and women who do the same thing are bitches. This was very much the case 50 years ago but you still see a lot of it. I observed recently a company where on a team of 6, the 4 men all got bonuses and promotions after a big project and the women who were arguably the most effective and productive did not.

      Men and women can be sitting in the same class or office and have entirely different experiences.

      1. HannahS*

        I read a study that had people playing with someone else’s toddler for like 10 minutes or something, and the behaviour of the study participants was radically different if they were told that the toddler was a girl versus a boy. They were more protective or girls, let them take fewer physical risks, and sat back more with boys and encouraged independence. It’s so, so, subtle and it starts so young.

    12. OldMom*

      Sometimes it is explicit. I remember at summer camp, junior high age, we girls were told to be considerate and forgiving of the boys and their various awkwardnesses because of the difficulty of all they were going through, as boys. I think growth spurts, voice changes and bad smells and hairiness were mentioned. At the time, I didn’t think much of it but I did have a…but what about us? moment. The idea was that as girls we should cut them more of a break, while as boys, they were unlikely to even notice any difficulties we might have much less be considerate about them.

    13. misspiggy*

      Everyone’s examples are fascinating. I definitely got ‘you’re being bossy’ at preprimary school, but my mum was determined that my brother and I weren’t going to get different treatment because of gender. Until I got old enough to beg for the toys my friends had, my toys were gender neutral. No TV till the age of 10 or so. We both got praise for helping around the house, sharing, not being too noisy and so on. Most teachers (UK, 80s) were pretty good about not promoting sexist attitudes.

      My mum made a point of telling me about times when she’d refused to put up with sexist crap at work, and that definitely helped me stick up for myself. On the other hand, she would always give herself the smallest portion of food, always put herself last in everything. I think her denial of many of her own healthcare needs did do me some damage, role model-wise.

    14. HannahS*

      I think it has a lot to do with subtle punishment and reward, all through life. Different qualities are valued in girls from boys, and social flaws are excused in boys that are not tolerated in girls. Here’s my personal example. I want to preface it by saying that everyone in my life is a feminist. All of the women in my life are educated, many more so than their husbands. But socialization is so damn hard to escape.

      As a child, I was praised by teachers for being so helpful, so nice, so well-behaved, while my brother (Jacob) was praised for being really smart. I mean, his teachers were in AWE of him. It’s all they could talk about when they talked about him. My teachers said that I was a good student, but they focused on the fact that I was likable–so nice, so well-behaved. Now, I knew that I was intelligent, that I’d taken IQ tests, that I was going to go to a special high school, etc. But no one was in AWE of me, so I figured I was normal-above-average-smart, and he was REALLY smart.
      Any social issues on his part were put down to his being, like, a really smart skinny nerdy dude. You know, like Sherlock, or House, or that new show with Freddie Highmore. In fact, I often remember that the poor social skills of boys were excused with, “Well, maybe he’s just awkward,” and it was my (implied) job as a girl to understand and accommodate for this. I remember MANY times adults talking about how girls naturally have better social skills than boys…no pressure, right? I remember, as a pre-teen, trying desperately to figure out social rules, because when was the last time you heard female bad behaviour explained with, “Well, maybe she’s just awkward”? I succeeded because I put the work in, which my brother was not pressured to do. My better social skills were a consolation prize: “Well, Hannah, you have better social skills than Jacob.”
      He got books as gifts from relatives, and I got pink candy-making kits. Or makeup. Or jewelry. He was “such a little scholar!” Extreme intelligence still is his reputation in our whole extended family. I don’t know what mine is. I think people know that I’m intelligent, but he’s definitely “the smart one.”
      So…as adults, we both acknowledge that I’m actually the smarter one. He’s older, but once we were both adults I quickly surpassed him. That’s the issue. Here were two highly intelligent and slightly awkward children, one (male) who was labeled incredibly intelligent and not socialized to be nice, and the other (female) who was labeled nice and not socialized to be incredibly intelligent. It affected us deeply; his identity centres on his intellect; mine on my relationships. I mean, he IS nice, and he HAS relationships–I love the guy; I’m not trying to slam him–and I certainly value my intellect, but I’ve definitely changed myself more to fit a mold than he has. There aren’t really cultural narratives for very smart, slightly awkward little girls.

      1. Working Rachel*

        I’ve got a similar thing with my brother–in my immediate family, we were considered equally smart, but in my extended family, he has the reputation as the “smart one” or “the genius.” Can’t remember if we’ve ever explicitly talked about it but I think we both consider ourselves pretty equivalent in intelligence.

    15. Maya Elena*

      As with everything, probably some combination of “nature and nurture”, in a proportion that science hasn’t quite cracked yet. A radical “blank slate”approach (the slightest gendered influence at birth dooms a girl to subservience within the patriarchy) is probably not sound. An evolutionary psychology approach (“women evolved to be more nurturing”) also probably isn’t the gospel truth. In fact, it seems plausible that over large enough time scales, culture and biology kind of run into one another – e.g., unused biological features atrophy while others develop, affecting social behavior, reproduction, and so on.

  76. Nic*

    I just received a promotion to Supervisor! I’m thrilled!

    This promotion is actually skipping two levels, and the title doesn’t reflect the duties; the job description fits “Manager”.

    I’ll be managing the team I’m being promoted from, and though they all already respect me as a peer, I’m open to any advice! The company has recently started working to change to a Leader-Leader culture (as from the book Turn This Ship Around by L. David Marquet), so part of my strategy is going to each of my peers and asking for insight on what they do in their specific role, and what they wish the Supervisor knew about that. I also plan to have one on ones monthly, which is something that hasn’t been done before.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Listening is super important. You don’t have to agree, but you do have to listen. Sometimes people get caught up in equating listening with agreeing and this is not true.

      Work. And be seen working. This is important. People go in the direction of their leadership. I had a CEO who was always on the golf course. His immediate subordinates were always at the mall. The story goes on from there, you see the problem.

      Make sure they have what they need to do the job. I remember jobs where bringing your own toilet paper was expected. Ask each person if they have what they need. Yes, you worked with them so this seems too obvious. People sometimes have ideas and are hesitant to say so.

      Tap the collective wisdom of your group whenever possible. Their collective wisdom will carry you through a lot of tough situations. Start encouraging them to express ideas now in small ways, such as letting them have inputs about their tools and their work flows. One group I had reduced an eight person job down to two people, simply by changing the flow of the work. You retain final say, of course. But once they see you using the ideas or variations on the ideas they will speak up more. That is when you start feeling like they are a gold mine of information.

      1. Nic*

        Thanks for the response! These are along the lines of what I was thinking, and it helps to see specifics defined.

        The “listening is not necessarily agreeing” seems really big, especially with me coming up. I’ll really keep that in mind.

        That’s really interesting about the collective wisdom. I know from the bottom I’ve seen places I felt like we could improve. It will be nice to be in a spot where hopefully I can help drive that.

        Thanks again!

  77. AnotherLibrarian*

    One of my best friends works in a deeply toxic environment. She doesn’t seem to realize it though and keeps saying that anywhere else would be just as bad (it would not). I want her to succeed and I am trying to sort how to be supportive while also helping her see that her current place of employment is not a good metric.

    She has been told by her manager that she wishes she was “less smart and more reliable” and also that “if someone leaves, that’s good, because we can hire someone else in at a lower salary.” While I think my friend is bright and a hard worker, I don’t know how to help her see that these are not normal things to be told by your manager.

    Does anyone who has left a toxic place or helped someone else leave one, have any advice? I love my job. It is a really healthy wonderful environment and I don’t know how to support her right now.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Honestly I think the best thing you can do is react when she says something that’s weird or warped. You can’t rescue her but you can remind her of where an actual ‘normal’ barometer lies.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, that’s what I’ve been trying to do. I know I can’t save her from herself, but I hate hearing her say things that are so insane and not knowing how to say, “This is not normal.”

    2. Delta Delta*

      “if someone leaves, that’s good, because we can hire someone else in at a lower salary.”

      That is so toxic. I left a place after having heard variations on this theme. Why would anyone stay somewhere if that’s the philosophy? Well, I left after a series of horribles and then had a “nail in the coffin” moment. But it took a lot of time after leaving and a lot of space to realize how truly awful it was. One thing that did help is that I read AAM quite a bit in my last year or so there. It helped me to see that things going on around me were not normal, and helped me to see what was better in other people’s workplaces. So, maybe suggest that she start reading this blog! : – )

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Print out some articles on toxic workplaces.
      Ask her if her job makes her feel sick sometimes.
      Ask her how much longer she is going to put up with this.

      I tried getting my husband out of a toxic job and it was three years of nagging. They get so stuck that the jaws of life can’t remove them. It’s hard.

      Tell her to write Alison and get a professional opinion on her setting.

  78. Gandalf the Nude*

    A rant on a good friend’s behalf:

    If you hire a full-time nanny, don’t continually come home and dismiss her 2-3 hours early. That’s 2-3 hour of pay she’s losing out on, not a fun afternoon off.

    If you hire a full-time nanny, don’t kick her and the child out of the house for the day during unannounced renovations with no money for expenses. That presents added costs that you don’t pay her enough to float.

    If you hire a full-time nanny, tell her in advance that you are going on a two week, intercontinental vacation rather than letting her find out by pulling up to your empty house and waiting two days for you to answer her emails. Again, that’s not a vacation for the nanny. That’s two weeks she’s not making any income. Also, because you didn’t give her any warning that she would not be making that income, she didn’t have the opportunity to line up something else for the meantime and now has to beg friends and acquaintances on the internet for odd jobs to make rent.

    If you hire a full-time nanny, be sure that your income and lifestyle actually affords a full-time nanny so that you don’t end up firing that full-time nanny after two months of your wishy-washy codswallop because you’ve decided to “keep costs down” by working from home.

    (Also, WOW, your employer is not paying you to watch your kid.)

    I’m sympathetic to the stress and confusion that new parents face, and I get that sometimes that will even involve messing up and accidentally screwing over other people. BUT don’t be cavalier about it. Make it right where you can. And don’t you dare condescend with “You’ll understand when you’re a parent.”

    This has been a rant on a good friend’s behalf.

    1. Alice*

      Wow, that’s awful. I mean, sure, come home early — but if you agreed to pay the nanny X for the week, you need to do that despite any “I got home early yippee” days.
      Not that I’ve ever been or hired a nanny, but I wonder if working through an agency would help making sure that expectations and responsibilities are clear? It might screen out people like this, for one thing.
      Good luck for your friend — I hope their next employer isn’t like this.

    3. CM*

      That’s awful! Maybe a written contract next time? Doesn’t have to be formal, but can cover things like advance notice for vacations, paid sick days, and guaranteed minimum payments per week unless otherwise agreed in writing. This may help the employer understand that nannies depend on the income and are not just watching the children out of the goodness of their hearts.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Yowza.
      If I ever am fortunate enough to hire a full-time nanny, I will make sure I don’t do any of these. AwesomeOldBoss would sometimes let me go early on a Friday or the day before a holiday and pay me anyway–I am fine with doing that.
      And how do you forget to tell your nanny that you’re going to be GONE FOR TWO WEEKS????

    5. Artemesia*

      Nannies where we are, are in the catbird seat. Your friend needs to find a better job and with written agreements about hours and vacations. It is hard to find a good nanny.

    6. Ramona Flowers*

      New parent stress my a**. This person is an entitled sh*thead and I’m sorry your friend went through this.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I linked my friend to this thread, and she went “Ramona Flowers knows what’s up.”

    7. Gandalf the Nude*

      My friend appreciates the sympathy. Thanks, y’all. She is not looking to nanny again–she started looking for other employment after the first few times of being sent home early. It would have been tough to negotiate guaranteed pay, etc. up front because nannies are a dime a dozen in this city, but if she ever has to go back to nannying, I think she’ll push for agency involvement or something.

      1. Observer*

        Even with nannies being a dime a dozen, if she were to walk off a job, the employer would still have an issue, so she has SOME leverage. And beyond that, not every set of parents are stupid jerks. Smart parents treat nannies well, because THIS IS THE PERSON WHO IS WATCHING YOUR KIDS.

        By the way, what kind of idiot kicks nanny and kid out the door unexpectedly?! This is not just a jerk move to the Nanny, who does that to their kid?!?!?

    8. Book Lover*

      Your friend needs a contract. I pay for the nanny to be on call, which means she gets paid regardless of whether she is needed or not. These are things that need to be addressed on hiring or asap when you realize you are not on the same page.

    9. SC*

      Wow. I agree these people were just sh*theads, and they don’t deserve your sympathy. I had a nanny for a year, and I never let her hours dip below a 37 hours (she worked 4 days/week for us). If I had unexpected free time, I ran errands or something instead of going home early. There was never a reason that she and DS couldn’t be in the house, but for errands or driving to meet me at the doctor’s office or something, we reimbursed mileage and any unanticipated expenses. When we had to let her go to keep costs down (in favor of daycare, not me working from home), we gave her over a month’s notice. These are the decent things to do.

      Admittedly, we didn’t offer paid vacation. We might have if we kept her the second year, but I used up my vacation for maternity leave, and DH used his up to stay home with us for 2 weeks. So we actually needed someone every single workday. Our nanny took some unpaid time off and found us good substitutes during those times, but we had to pay the subs instead of her and really couldn’t afford to pay twice. She did make $2 above market, but that was because she was exceptionally qualified and did light housework, not because of the vacation.

    10. HannahS*

      That’s horrible! HORRIBLE! I had a nanny when I was little, and I’m very likely to hire one once I have kids, and it’s so disheartening to read about how exploitative it can be. Your friend’s employer is awful. Nannies deserve so much respect and consideration (as well as good wages) for their job.

  79. Potential Expat*

    My husband is in the running for an internal promotion that would move us from the US to the UK. I’m excited; I’m at a point in my career where a derail like this wouldn’t be hugely problematic, and I’m always game for a little life shakeup.

    What kinds of things should he/we be prepared to ask about or for, if he does become a finalist for this role? What would a good relocation package look like?

    Background in case it’s relevant: My husband works in corporate strategy for a very large multinational corporation. His role is mid-career, his salary is in the mid-$100s currently (in a second-tier Midwestern city, i.e. not Chicago).

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Relocation package depends on what part of the UK you’d be moving to. In London you would need a significantly higher package than somewhere like Cardiff or Oxford. Also, don’t forget the healthcare is free in the UK so you may not want to worry about health insurance.

      1. Potential Expat*

        Yes, it would be London.

        I’m thinking less about the dollar amount (although we’ll obviously be concerned about that if it comes to pass), but more about the specifics of the package (unless it’s just money, and we decide how to deploy it? I really don’t have any idea yet). E.g.: Corporate housing while we search for a home in London and/or pre-move visit to find housing; support in selling our U.S. home; shipping home furnishings and/or personal items; travel cost for the move itself, etc.

        There’s a whole bunch of other stuff that I’m wondering about not related to the relocation package, but I’m setting that aside until/if this progresses.

        1. Artemesia*

          The big thing is housing. I’d want to have good data on housing costs and either a housing allowance or salary increase to cover increased housing costs and temporary housing while looking.

          But wow what a great opportunity. I’d be happy to live in less space and have to struggle a bit to have the opportunity to live in a foreign culture for awhile.

          1. Potential Expat*

            Oh yes. For what we pay on the mortgage for our 2200 sqf house we’ll definitely be looking at a ~750 sqf apartment. Whee!

            We don’t know what the salary will be at this point (we don’t even know what the bump would be for the same promotion in our current location, so we’re dealing with at least two variables).

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          Factor in the cost of travel around London. It ain’t cheap.

          Unless you have a disability that prevents you from driving in which case you can apply for a Freedom Pass and get it free.

    2. Blue Anne*

      Ask them if they will file your US taxes for you while you’re over there, or reimburse your accountant costs. You still need to file when you’re abroad and at that income level it can become complicated. Many international companies provide this service to employees in your position (including the finance firm I used to work for in the UK).

      If you have kids, consider what schools you would want them to attend and whether this will present extra costs.

      Research transportation options in London and ask what would be covered. A car may not be feasible. It is very standard for large corporations in London to provide an interest-free loan to their employees to purchase a season ticket on public transport, but you might want to ask that they just purchase this for you outright.

      1. Potential Expat*

        It is mostly in the “what if” stage, so don’t be jealous yet. He is a strong candidate and has the backing of his Grandboss, but who knows. :)

    4. Potential Expat*

      Forgot to add: I’m a dual US/UK citizen (but have never lived in the UK). Relevant for my own ability to work (and taxes? health care? IDK).

      2. Ange*

        Your citizenship won’t make a difference for the NHS either – you need to be “ordinarily resident” to qualify for free NHS treatment so I guess you’d need to find that out. Also you will have to pay for dentist, optician and prescriptions even if you get free NHS care. And to access NHS care you need to be registered with a GP.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Some further thoughts. You can get an estimate of what a salary might look like after tax here: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/

      You also need to factor in something called council tax when assessing housing costs – don’t just look at rent. (Council tax pays for things like schools, roads, emergency services, etc etc.)

      Don’t get blinded by things that sound great in comparison to the US (e.g. our much more generous vacation allowances).

      Also, fairly long probation periods are normal here.

    6. Fiddlesticks*

      So exciting — London’s an amazing city, a great international travel hub, and as a second time ex pat here, a very dear home of my heart.

      Some items to keep in mind as you guys are examining this opportunity:

      Job package:

      1. House hunting support: corporate move packages often include a stipend to cover the costs of at least one trip overseas prior to the official move for house hunting. Take advantage of this, especially if you’ve never lived in London before/visited long term! Neighborhood to neighborhood can make a huge difference in how happy you are. If you’re a South Kensington type of gal and you end up in my neck of the woods in Shoreditch you would be MISERABLE.

      2. House finding support: I don’t know how common this is, since I’ve moved with two corporations and one offered it and the other didn’t, but basically I was provided an advocate/house hunting assistant who worked on my behalf to identify properties in line with my budget/desires and accompanied on home visits, as well as reviewing rental contracts. This wasn’t super critical for me the second time around, but would have been fantastic to have for my first move.

      3. Sundries stipend: most moving packages should come with at least some quantity of cold hard cash to help you cover randomized expenses — and the tax liability of these funds should be covered by the firm, and not by yourself, for better corporate moving packages.

      2. Moving assistance: most corporate moving packages are inclusive of this, but if at all possible, negotiate for a full-service move from your current location to your future one, instead of just a quantity of money to cover moving costs. Your corporate package is almost always going to be better than trying to price out these guys as an independent actor. These generally encompass professional international movers that pack your entire household, sea ship and/or air ship (sea is obviously slower, but air shipments are usually more limited in size/weight and content) to the future destination, and some period of storage on the receiving end prior to move in. Your movers should also fully unpack you onto lay-flat surfaces in your new flat, and take away all your packing materials.

      4. Mortgage assistance: some companies, and for some levels of seniority, provide this service, where they will help cover some percentage of your new mortgage or provide financial assistance with fees and sundry costs of selling your old home. I was a renter on both sides, but I know my father a few years back got an insane moving package with his job.

      5. Someone else mentioned this, too, but dear God, yes, make your company do your taxes for you, for at LEAST the first two years you’re here. The pain of trying to file is amplified, not in the least because the U.S. does taxes on the calendar year and the UK does taxes April to April so I feel like I am ALWAYS DOING TAXES.

      Cost of living stuff:

      Someone already linked you to a great take-home pay calculator, and you can actually trust those figures because the UK tax system is way less complex than the U.S. one. For example if your company tells you you’re getting paid £50,000, you can enter it into that and get a more-or-less accurate view of what your take home will be each month, which I found extremely helpful when budgeting.

      One thing I struggled with the first time I moved was trying to get a gauge on how far my money would go. For context, a fairly average salary as I understand it in London is around £30K a year (UK-ers, please correct me if this is out of date!), which feels extremely low when you start calculating average cost of flats in the city. As an ex pat, you guys are probably going to be looking at a much more comfortable salary, though, so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Most COLA items (utilities/food/internet/mobile phones) are all cheaper in London in absolute values for me than they were in NYC, and rent is the big hurt. (In case it’s useful, I pay £1,990 in rent monthly for a pretty big Zone 1 one bedroom, about £60 in a month in electric, cable/internet is £60, and mobile phone with my work discount is £50 — compare that with my long ago $130 a month cable/internet bill from Time Warner — and food costs out to about £150 max a month of groceries.)

      I have no advice about neighborhoods, because preferences on this kind of thing can vary so dramatically, but one thing that varies significantly between U.S./UK apartment hunting is how rents are represented. A lot of times you will see rents listed as £SO MUCH MONEY per week — a mistake I made at the beginning when looking was just to multiply that number by 4 and assume that was my monthly. Incorrect. When they say weekly, they actually mean it, so you’ll need to do (£SO MUCH MONEY x 52 Weeks in a Year)/12 to get an accurate picture of what your monthly rent will be. It’s a good idea to figure out what your weekly max is based on this so you can filter things out when you’re checking out properties.

      Some other people have already mentioned some weird random unexpected costs such as Council Tax, which is determined by the size and location of your eventual apartment, but I’ll also add in TV license, which is the yearly fee you have to pay to support the BBC and legally be allowed to have TV.

      …Oh boy, that turned into a massive brain dump, but hope this late and long comment is at least good food for thought!

  80. Sup Sup Sup*

    This week, I’ve given three people specific deadlines and had them disappear on me. With one, I can chalk it up to a mistake, but three is giving me a complex that either a) I’m speaking gibberish or b) they just don’t give a s*** about what I need to get done. Whatever the case, I’m getting super irritated by it. (I already hate my job, this just adds a new level of fuel to the fire) GRRRRRR

  81. MuseumMusings*

    Work is going so much better (though conferences that start in one month and end in another are hell on getting receipts in on time for the end of the month), and I just wanted to thank fposte, Wannabe Disney Princess, and Anna Held for their support and responses over the past couple of weeks. It really helped!

    I had a meeting with my boss and he decided that he would prefer if I only do things he asks me to do, instead of me working independently on his behalf (ie what I had been doing earlier: sorting his email, marking stuff to be read, filing his insurance forms, etc.). So far, he hasn’t really asked anything except scheduling a few things, but he’s also been out at conferences the past week. I’ve started a new focus-intensive project, so I’m hoping that will take most of my time and energy so that my reduction of duties won’t show up on my time sheet (we have to record everything we do in increments of 15 minutes).

    Thanks to everyone again!

  82. BRR*

    I’m worried I’m becoming too much of a PITA to my department head (grandboss). I’m currently without a manager as my previous one (who was awful at their job) left for a new position. I met with grandboss right after my manager left to give a plan on the program I run and asked for a raise/promotion because of how my duties turned out to be far greater than the job description I was hired for and I was passed over during our annual review cycle a couple months prior (when raises/promotions are done). Grandboss said that’s how she expected the conversation to go and I got a raise but only half of what I asked for but with no promotion.

    Then I find out we’re moving from small but acceptable size cubes to tiny desks with no privacy where I can’t even write in my notebook and use my computer at the same because the desk is so small. I’m livid that my employer even considers this work space and let my grandboss know in a professional manner that I was very unhappy about the space and how it will be very difficult for me to do my job. Then as we’re hiring a replacement for my old manager there was mention of me reporting to another person instead who is just awful and I said I would prefer to not report to her for a couple of a reasons. To top it off my workload has been at an unsustainable level since I started and that came up in conversation as well and she wanted to hear more about it.

    I feel like I’m causing too much stress in my grandboss’ life but the raise, workspace, and workload issues have been so severe they are causing health problems from all the stress. She’s also terrible at managing and has had a lot on her plate with my previous manager leaving so she’s definitely burnt out. I’ve been as appreciative as possible but my grandboss is odd and a poor communicator and doesn’t really respond when I express gratitude. I’m looking for a new job but is there anything else I should be doing? Am I causing too much trouble at the moment?

    1. Kyrielle*

      I’d say pick your battles, but…all of those are battles worth picking! I’m glad you’re looking, because it sounds like a mess. If your grandboss thinks you’re causing too much trouble, I’m not sure that’s your problem…these are all legitimate issues and worth raising.

      Strategy-wise, if it looks like the workspace issue can’t be changed at this point, maybe let that one go for now – bringing it up is valid, but if it’s not going to change, continued focus on it won’t gain you anything and might have a cost (depending on whether your grandboss is bothered by the discussions). The raise has been dealt with; I wouldn’t bring it up again until the next review cycle, but I wouldn’t worry about having brought it up either (it worked, if only partially, after all!).

      If you get a new boss, and especially one you work well with, that will probably help – you can raise workload and prioritization issues with that person, and after they’ve settled in a bit and you have a read on them, maybe also revisit the workspace issue.

      But no, this sounds like a mess and a bad time, but I don’t see where it would have been reasonable to *not* bring the issues up, either. If you bring them up and then stop pushing on ones that aren’t going to change, I think that’s reasonable – if you bring up the workspace on a daily basis, not so much. (Once you’ve had a big-picture conversation about workload, I might stick to only actual-issue discussion of it for a while, such as, “I’ve been asked to add X to my plate by Fergus; is that something you want me doing? If so, which of the other items should I defer?” Or “Of course I can do Y, but I’ll need to delay something else; would Z being moved back a couple weeks be okay, or should we drop or delay something else?”)

      1. CM*

        Yes, exactly. These are all serious issues that sound necessary to address. Maybe you are a PITA to your grandboss, but this is sort of like situations where people are worried about being rude in addressing the rudeness of others. Sometimes you need to accept that you’re going to cause other people stress, because their decisions are causing you stress and you’re right to speak up about them.

        1. BRR*

          Thank you both for your support. I do think part of this is self-imposed guilt and another big part is that my boss doesn’t seem to appreciate when I tried to acknowledge it was a difficult spot for her to be in having an entire department of unhappy people (re: workspace).

          1. Kyrielle*

            That could be anything from not showing reaction to appreciation in general (not ideal but survivable), to being so sick of the topic of workspaces that even a positive comment isn’t comfortable, to being seriously annoyed at what the company did with the workspaces but having no authority to change it – and having to not display that to someone who is junior to her in the org chart lest she be seen as undermining the company by her boss.

            Figuring out which one is akin to tea-leaf reading, and probably also not an exercise she’d want you to undertake regardless, so I’d mentally file this one under “I did what I had to, I was as kind and reasonable as I could be, and it’s out of my hands now”. (Not saying that’s super-easy; I have to work at it. But I do better when I can manage to let go of other people’s reactions, whether I know what they were or not.)

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If your grandboss is burned out and bad at managing, is she the type who’d let you pick the solutions for her? Like, instead of saying “this is an unsuitable workspace,” say “this is an unsuitable workspace for X and Y and Z reasons, but I’ve found a space over here that would work, or this new desk that would be adequate,” and then all she has to do is agree, instead of trying to find a solution herself.

  83. LO*

    I started my current job in January of this year as a temp. I have been in this role for about 6 months and was hired permanently 3 months ago. (Admin Assistant in a consulting firm).

    For the amount of responsibilities that I have on my plate and after a discussion with my manager about upcoming projects that he would expect me to take on, I feel that I am severely under compensated monetarily. I had a conversation with my manager about this subject (I received two small pay raises in the time I’ve been here) and he told me that we would not be able to have another compensation conversation until my anniversary date (next April because my time as a temp is not counted toward my full time anniversary total. I had this conversation with my boss two months ago).

    I have started looking for other work, but I’m puzzled by how I should explain this situation in an interview. Is it at all appropriate to mention my experience and feeling underpaid? Or should I come up with something else to say about why I’m choosing to leave? (my fallback is wanting to cut my commute, which 45 minutes on a good day)

    1. Blah (formerly feeling)*

      I think it’s hard to argue that you’re underpaid to someone who doesn’t know your work, while saying that you want to cut your commute is a lower risk. At the same time, if this new employer is willing to pay you more, you are underpaid! I think there’s a stronger way to say that “I don’t feel as if my current position has the growth I desire”? or something without quite saying it.

    2. fposte*

      This is a pretty early departure from a job, so it’ll take some management. You’ve been there officially only 3 months, and the pay rate was good enough for you to take it then. A prospective hiring manager’s POV might well be that if you’re worth so much more now, why didn’t you get a job that paid more 3 months ago?

      So that’s the question you’re going to be subtextually fielding. Were you new to the industry and only found out market rates once you got there? Was there a situation that meant the short-term need for pay couldn’t wait for a job search? That’s the kind of info I’d include if you’re going to make salary part of the discussion. (For that matter, same with the commute-you knew what it would be going in, so you want to frame the reason of why you accepted a job if you knew the commute already. Did it become more wearing than you realized, for instance?)

      1. LO*

        The long and short of it is that I was hospitalized last year, had medical bills to pay and took a job to bring money in.
        I started off in a totally different position with less responsibility. The person who was in my position quit and I was promoted to her role.

        Now that I’m working in that position and my manager feels that he has a competent team to do the work, it is being put on me at a dizzying pace. I just recently told my manager that I was unable to take on a task that.

        Yes, it was my responsibility to do my due diligence on the position and pay and I did not. I do appreciate your perspective though. I am prepared to be honest about my circumstances if asked about it, but recognize that this is a risky thing to do.

    3. Sup Sup Sup*

      I have to be honest, I’m having a hard time figuring out why you want to leave. Pay raises tend to happen pretty regularly on a 1 year schedule unless there are extenuating circumstances. Do you not like the work you’re being assigned, is it not part of your job description or are you concerned about your workload? If you’re concerned about your workload, that’s not a question of compensation until you’ve addressed the underlying issue. You need to let your boss know about your concerns and give them the opportunity to adjust assignments accordingly. If they’re unable to do it then it becomes a question of compensation. If you feel that the assignments are not part of your job description then that’s also something to discuss with your boss.

      Either way, It may be difficult to change your salary overly much given that 4 months ago you recently accepted the position as it was with the salary that was attached to it.

    4. CM*

      In addition to the commute, I think you can also say that the job responsibilities are significantly different than what you were told at the beginning, with an example or two. I think you need to say something more than the commute since you’ve been there such a short time and should explain why you’re leaving so quickly.

      I wonder, though, is the money a dealbreaker for you? Two pay raises in 9 months seems unusually generous, and I’m not surprised that your manager is saying he cannot adjust your compensation again until your annual review. Why not consider staying and seeing what happens after your review? You can always job search then if you still feel that you’re severely underpaid, and you may have an easier time interviewing once you have been at your current job for a full year.

  84. Merci Dee*

    So, we got a new program at work this past week. Basically we’re setting up cloud services, which is generally a good thing.

    But.

    Let’s decide to roll this out the same week as month-end closing, and have everyone’s computers updated with the new policy, so that people who’ve never used this system before struggle to save their invoices in the cloud, and then struggle to attach those invoices to their e-docs. In the middle of closing. And let’s not mention that people need to attach original PDFs of their invoices to the e-docs, instead of links to the cloud invoices, because the links will break if someone moves or deletes the cloud doc. Let’s let Accounting discover this on their own. In the middle of closing. So that Accounting has to go back and reject 300+ e-docs and ask for them to be resubmitted. In the middle of closing.

    Did I mention all this was in the middle of closing?

    Then, final wrinkle …. we’d been told we had 2 months to migrate docs from our computers to the cloud. Yesterday morning, we get an email to say our docs should be moved by the end of the week. Which is today. Accounting as a group looked at the email, laughed and laughed and laughed, then went back to our month-end reporting.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m excited about having all our documents available in a central location, and plants all over the world have been begging for this for years. I just think implementation could have been more carefully considered.

      1. Merci Dee*

        Turns out, we got another email from our boss today after he worked things out with IT. So we’ve got a couple of weeks to move our documents over. I finished up a few things this morning, and had most of the afternoon to work on the migration. Got about 2/3 of my stuff moved, so I should be able to finish up Monday or Tuesday. More progress than I expected!

  85. Incognito*

    I left my job. My manager couldn’t even be bothered to come in on my last day, but somehow still managed to treat me and my team with utter disrespect for our time and effort it was by far the worst last day at a job I have ever had. I have never left a job without having fully transitioned my work and transferred all of my files, NEVER, not since I left my very first job in 1989. That includes a prior job where the Grand Boss was a complete bully. I won’t even go into details. It was just the crappiest exit I have ever experienced.

    I am exhausted and mostly slept the rest of the week. I didn’t feel remotely normal until yesterday afternoon. I still feel off. I was hoping to enjoy my time between jobs a bit more than this, but obviously my body and mind need some serious recuperation time.

    My employer also does not give you the COBRA paperwork when you leave. You have to wait for it to come in the mail which takes about 2 weeks. For someone who would just like to know August is paid for and doesn’t want to have issues particularly at the pharmacy where they aren’t very flexible, this is really annoying. My health coverage is in some ridiculous limbo in the meantime.

    I hope to hear back from a couple places within the next week or so about interviews, one I hope offers, but if not, there are others that will be calling me in when they start scheduling in-person interviews.

    1. atexit8*

      Sometimes you don’t get the COBRA when you leave especially if it is a larger corporation.
      With one former employer, the COBRA was handled by a 3rd-party.

    2. Artemesia*

      You know that two months of COBRA are essentially a freeby? You apply when you get the paperwork but don’t pay for two months; if you need coverage in that two months you pay, if you have new insurance in place by the end of the two months, you just never pay. At least this was true a few years ago when I retired and my husband was not eligible for medicare for a couple of months; my son used the same COBRA bridge when he changed jobs.

      1. Natalie*

        3.5 months, in fact. You have 60 days to elect to take COBRA coverage, and then an additional 45 days to make that first payment.

  86. vuchachu*

    Two questions please.

    I work in an open office and rely on google hangouts for may of our meetings (with people in other offices). Sometimes the chatting around my desk or the desk of the person I’m talking with makes it very difficult to hear or concentrate. Picking up and moving to a conference room isn’t always possible (too many meetings, too few conference rooms) plus this happens fairly infrequently. What’s the most polite way to say “Hey, can you please keep it down?” if the noise is on my end. If it’s on the other person’s end, I don’t think I can tell them to handle it, just explain that I’m having trouble hearing them.

    Second question, for those who work in software, how long does it take before you don’t feel guilty about code that caused an issue or when someone else discovers a problem you probably should have caught? I feel sick and anxious anytime this happens but it looks like other simply take it in stride.

    1. CAA*

      “Hey, can you guys please keep it down, I’m on a call” is perfectly fine for the people around you, assuming you know them and you’re not a contractor working at a client site or something. The noisemakers are the rude ones, not you. For the person on the other end, “there’s a lot of noise in the background, so I’m having trouble hearing you”.

      The guilt depends on how bad the problem is and what you are doing to prevent it from happening again. Hopefully you’re trying to figure out why bugs occurred and using that information to make yourself a better programmer. You can also ask more senior people to do code reviews with you. You still won’t catch everything, but more eyes on it usually always helps.

  87. GreenYogurt*

    Here’s a doozy of a thing that just happened to me. At my office, we have ARC people (mentally challenged/low IQ) who do things like copy room, cleaning the kitchen and coffee bars, setting up drinks in conference rooms, cleaning offices when new people are coming, etc.

    This morning when I was stepping off the elevator at my floor I was shutting off my iPod which I listen to on my commutes. The guy who cleans the kitchen is VERY difficult to understand (English is not his first language) had a big cart he was pushing and stopped it to point at my iPod and tell me he had one too. To my right was a big plant, in front of me and extending to my left was the guy with his cart, behind me was the elevator (doors had just closed) and I felt trapped.

    I wound up acknowledging that he also had an iPod (which 15 minutes later he came to my desk to show me) while also smiling AND shoving his cart away at an angle so I could get past. It was like a surge of panic/claustrophobia. Was there some better way to have handled this?

    1. Amtelope*

      I think what you did was fine, but I think if this happens again you could be explicit about the problem (which he may not have noticed): “Can you move the cart? It’s in my way.” If this is a recurring problem, maybe something like “Please don’t stop the cart right in front of the elevators. It makes it hard for people to get in and out of the elevators. They need more room.”

      1. Candy*

        Yeah, saying “excuse me” or “pardon” or whatever you’d say to any other co-worker who was temporarily in your way would have been better than shoving his cart.

        He sounds like he was just trying to connect but being developmentally disabled doesn’t easily pick up on cues like personal space, voice level, etc.

  88. Piano Girl*

    My 26 year-old nephew is stuck. He has a bachelor’s degree in Marketing, and alot of experience doing door-to-door sales. He has moved back to be near family, and seems to be having a hard time finding/looking for a job. I think he is worried about taking a position, because he thinks something better might be around the corner. Right now, he is driving Uber to just pay the bills. My question is, have you ever been stuck? And if so, what have you done to get unstuck? Thanks!

    1. katamia*

      Yep. I spent years being stuck (and still sort of am stuck). The things that got/are getting me unstuck are:

      1) Figuring out what I actually wanted rather than what I thought I wanted. Easier said than done, I know, but it’s a lot easier to get out of the quicksand when you know which way is up.

      2) Volunteering. It was interesting and led to a part-time job I still have (and also helped me figure out which way was up).

      3) Grad school, impending, in a field where a graduate degree is basically required. Now that I know what I want, I need to level up before I can do it, and what I want to do actually does require a graduate degree.

      4) Being frugal. I’ve spent very little in my years of being stuck, so I have enough savings to go to grad school.

  89. Trout 'Waver*

    Alison is absolutely correct that the best gift you can give a good manager is a heartfelt thank-you note. I just got the first one of my career from my summer intern on her last day today, and it turned around my whole week. It’s pinned to my board and will be for the foreseeable future.

    Have a nice weekend everyone.

    1. Merci Dee*

      Aww, that was so sweet! It’s nice to have things like that around that just brighten your day. Hope you have a fabulous weekend!

  90. atexit8*

    Is the interviewer being 20 minutes late rude?
    I had an interview scheduled for 9 am.
    The interviewer did not show up at the front desk to escort me in until 9:20 am.
    No apology either.

    Not only that but it turns out I was interviewing for a different position than the one that their automated system said I was interviewing for.

    I called the HR person who is actually in another state and asked him about the mix-up.
    He hasn’t returned my call.

    Shaking my head.

    2. Blah (formerly feeling)*

      I feel like the implication in job interviews is that their time is more valuable than yours, but it’s still rude that they didn’t apologize! And they didn’t have the right job? Seems like bad news.

      1. atexit8*

        I think they thought that I would be more appropriate for this job given my BS degree.
        But I actually wanted the other one. It was part-time and that suited me perfectly.
        Sigh.

    4. SC*

      Being 20 minutes late seems like no big deal, but he should at least apologize.

      Honestly, I’d be more worried about the mix-up in the position you were interviewing for. That’s a giant red flag for disorganization and dysfunction.

  91. Blah (formerly feeling)*

    I’m hoping to hear back about a second interview this week, and have another one Monday. I feel like I might actually get a job someday!

  92. Amber Rose*

    Kind readers of AAM, please offer some insight into this interaction with my boss, because I have been anxiety spiraling about it really badly.

    I went in to request my last two days of vacation off for a concert in October. And my boss said, “what will you do if your sick time runs out?” And well, it has, it did a long time ago, 2017 has utterly sucked for me. And so I said, “hopefully I won’t get sick anymore.” And then he kind of went on about how when people call in sick a lot it creates a reputation, where other people are like, “where is that person? Are they sick again?” And how I should consider that and try to do better.

    And I said, “It’s been a rough year for me health wise, my doctor and I are working on it still but it is what it is. If there are concerns about my work, I’d be happy to talk about them with you.” Then he kind of waffled and said he wasn’t pointing fingers and it wasn’t like my work is bad, but some people don’t take any sick time, and then they see other people taking sick time and think they should too, or they think that person is taking extra long weekends and want to as well, and then they complain to him about it.

    At that point I started to get angry, and I was thinking that sounds like a you and them problem, not a me problem. But I just kind of mumbled OK and left. And now I’m sort of freaking out that the whole office is complaining about me. For the record, we get 6 sick days a year, and I’ve been off 8 days this year, although two of the times I called in were multiple days because I was really, really friggin sick.

    I just feel like my reputation is in the trash because my chronic illnesses all picked 2017 to slug me in the face. But I don’t know what to do about it. Every time my doctor tries a new drug, the side effects are killer. And I keep getting sick because my immune system is shot.

    1. Blah (formerly feeling)*

      I feel like that was *super* inappropriate of your boss! His attitude is nonsense – sick days are for when you’re sick, and you don’t get to decide when you’re sick. I’m not sure what the best thing to do is, but don’t blame yourself for getting sick. :(

      1. Amber Rose*

        I think he was sort of implying that I was not really sick, just skipping work a bunch of times. He brought up how they have had people who just decided to take longer vacations and stuff by using sick time.

        1. Artemesia*

          “I am thinking that if I came into the office and vomited into my trash can and infected the whole office that probably they would have a different attitude about sick leave’ Or leave off the gross part but make the point that spreading illness around the office is probably not super considerate.

    2. Murphy*

      some people don’t take any sick time, and then they see other people taking sick time and think they should too

      Yes, I often get sick because I notice that Jane isn’t at her desk and I think “I’d love to come down with a bad cold as well!”

      Your boss is way off base. Some people rarely get sick. They are lucky. For the rest of us, that’s what sick days are for. Anyone complaining about anyone else’s use of their sick days should mind their own business.

      1. Emi.*

        Or maybe people think “Oh, Jane is taking sick time. I guess it’s actually okay to do that, and I should stop bringing my strep throat into work!” which would be … a good thing.

    3. Squeeble*

      You’re doing the best you can in a crappy situation, and I think the way you responded to your boss in the moment was GREAT. If your coworkers really are complaining about you being out, that’s…sucky. (And eight days in the past year is not that much.) I’m sorry, I don’t have much more advice than to keep doing what you’re doing.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Thank AAM for my response, I have made a point of internalizing as many scripts as possible. :D

        I would hazard a guess that if people are complaining, they’re talking about Fergus, who had a habit before of going home early on Monday, and then just not coming back for the rest of the week without telling anyone. But I worry that his actions make me look unreliable also.

    4. Emi.*

      Honestly it just sounds like he’s concern-trolling. If he’s generally the passive-aggressive type he might do that as cover for a problem with your work, but you gave him a really great opportunity to say so and he dodged it. So I don’t know what on earth he’s trying to convey, but it’s probably not that the whole office is complaining about you, because they’re probably not. That would just be very disproportionate and petty of them, as well as of your boss. I hope you and your doctor figure something out!

    5. CM*

      You responded perfectly to your boss. I doubt your reputation is in the trash. Just hold that line; you’re doing nothing wrong, and calling him out on what he’s saying may make him realize he’s being unreasonable. I also like your framing of “this is a you and them problem, not a you and me problem” even though this time you didn’t say it in the moment. If he starts in on this again, you could point that out or say that you hope he’s addressing those complaints by telling people that your health issues are not their business. If he starts to penalize you for having health issues, you can always go to HR.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We have no HR sadly. And he’s one of the owners of the company, so it’s not like I can appeal to a higher power. :/

        But I guess if it comes up again, I’ll try asking them to talk to the complainers instead of me. I really don’t want to feel like I have to reserve half my vacation as possible sick days either. I plan my PTO 6-8 months in advance, and I only get 10 days. I’d rather just take extra sick days unpaid.

    6. Elisabeth*

      When you’re at work, are you active/helpful/productive? When you’re sick, do you make sure to let everyone relevant know that you won’t be in the office that day? Do you make attempts to catch up on work when you return?

      If so, please don’t worry about this any longer. Your health is so, so important. Your boss is in the wrong. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah. I mean, nobody knows if I’m productive or not, since I assign myself work, but I know I am, and I do all the sales calls when I’m here. And I always email my boss, my supervisor and the accountant when I’m out.

    7. Ange*

      I sympathise, as a person with chronic illnesses myself. 8 days is not a lot, though – this year I have had 60 so far and will probably hit 6 months by the time my cancer treatment is done. Weirdly all my other health problems seem to have stopped being an issue.
      Your boss (and colleagues) kind of sound like they’re being jerks though. If he really thinks people are using sick days to extend their holidays then he should investigate that, but using other people’s (theoretical) misbehavior to give you a hard time is just unreasonable.

  93. l*

    How many reminders are too many?

    I applied for a job with a huge company and passed the initial stages (phone interviews, online tests). After the last one they contacted me very quickly by email asking about my availability next week already. I would have to have a day off and fly to their headquarters.

    I replied just one hour later. They promised to get back to me next morning with a precise time. They didn’t. In the afternoon I got an email “have you already checked your availability?”, I replied immediately with: “Yes! And I actually sent you a reply yesterday”.

    Then I got a confirmation they would contact me today morning with a confirmation about the interview. They didn’t. (It’s afternoon where I live). I contacted them and got a reply that they are working on that.

    I already asked for a day off and for reasons I don’t want to describe here, if I don’t have the interview on this day it will now cause me a lot of headache – I will have to cancel my day off, make up some strange excuse to my boss why I wanted to have it… I can’t just spend the day off at home chilling. Not to mention I have to book my flights, hotel, etc.

    At this point I’m quite angry.

    1. atexit8*

      You have to book your flight?

      In the past when I have done this, the megacorp’s travel department booked the travel.

      Good luck.

      1. l*

        I’ve done it both ways – done the cost reimbursed or the company bought tickets for me.

        Now I’m super angry. They called and want to have a 5-hour long skype interview instead. I will have to pay a hotel from which I will be having the interview and hope the internet connection will be ok, which obviously is normally the case in hotels, right?

        I’m considering cancelling it and my day off.

        2. Kelly L.*

          Wait, they wanted to to travel to them, and now that you’re set that up, they want to do it all online instead? Grrr, they could have done that with you staying where you were.

        3. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Why do you need a hotel for the Skype interview? Assuming you don’t have Internet at home, maybe ask a friend or family member first? Or, if you have a smartphone that functions as a hotspot, the extra charges might be much less than a hotel. It sounds like they want to do a Skype call to avoid your travel and make things a little easier on everybody. If this just makes things too difficult and you’re not super hyped on the job, then cancel– but if you do want the job, I’d urge to look into some alternatives before making that move.

          1. l*

            No, it’s more complex than that as I travel for work*, so if I take a day off while travelling I’m responsible for my own accommodation during the day off. Sorry, I wouldn’t like to go into in detail. Of course I do have internet at home but I won’t be at home. Companies that invite me to visit them always cover my hotel costs.

            * If any of you ever consider taking a job with plenty of travelling, I can only advise you to think it over really well since searching for your next job will be a horror

            1. CAA*

              Well, I think if you go ahead with the interview, then you should start off by explaining that you’re in a hotel because you’re traveling for your current job, so if there’s any problem with the skype connection, they should please call you back on your cell and give that number. On the bright side, I once worked over skype from a hotel on a Friday when I had a day between a work trip and a weekend personal trip and it didn’t make sense to go home. During the day when everyone else was out working, the hotel network’s performance was fine, though it deteriorated around 4:00 PM when lots of people started checking in and using it.

    2. Biff*

      I think you jumped the gun, asking for the day off, BUT, I think it is recoverable: blame it on someone else’s schedule. “Oh, my friend was going to come into town, but her trip got cancelled, and there’s no need for me to have the day off anymore.”

      1. l*

        You’re probably right that I jumped the gun but travelling for work as much as I do I need to plan my days a bit in advance.

  94. stitchinthyme*

    Here’s another long-after-the-fact scenario:

    Years ago, my then-boss told me and a coworker that we needed to take full responsibility for a project we had been working on with a different company, because that company was about to fold and its management had given him the heads-up that we needed to take over the project ourselves. However, the employees we’d been working with knew nothing about their company’s impending closure, so if any of them contacted us, we were to act like we were still using their work, even though we wouldn’t be.

    Thankfully, none of them contacted me, so I didn’t need to lie, which is good because I’m a horrible liar. What do you do in a situation like that?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think there really is anything you can do in a situation. You have to pretend that you don’t know anything if have to deal with them. Not a blatant lie, but sort of a lie of omission.

      If you were to speak with them after the dirty deed has taken place be sympathetic, tell them you feel bad about the situation. If they were competent and hardworking people and if you can help them by being a professional reference, offer to do so. If, by chance, you hear of an opening that they might be qualified for and interested in, let them know. That’s about it.

  95. Victoria, Please*

    Another question! What’s your favorite conference swag???

    (My team wants to give out flash drives. I’m lukewarm. Are flash drives good?)

    1. Amber Rose*

      We give out a lot of flash drives. 10 years ago that was awesome, but since I can now buy a 16GB thumb drive for two dollars, they seem a little less amazing.

      Of the other things we give out, the water bottles, pocket knives and telescoping flashlights are among the most popular.

    4. Murphy*

      I got excited just reading this question!

      I got a reusable shopping bag that folds up to about the size of a postcard. It has a little pocket that’s usable when it’s folded up that had some conference materials in it when we got them. I love it! It’s lightweight and it’s useful. I keep it in my purse all the time and use it when I forget to bring a shopping bag, or if I only need one.

    5. Jillociraptor*

      I have a little collection of power banks that I love. I get enough that I don’t feel too bad about losing one, which I do on the regular.

      I’m also a sucker for a really good tshirt or hoodie.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Ooo, I’ve never gotten one of these as swag but I would love that. I have a bunch of them that I’ve brought on sale at Walgreens and places like that. Free ones would be amazing.

    6. Xarcady*

      The thing that generated the most interest from the last conference I attended was a stuffed animal. It’s the mascot/logo of one of our client companies. I *thought* I would leave it in my cubicle as a fun decoration, but after retrieving it for the 4th time after it got stolen again, I took it home.

      The second most sought-after thing was bluetooth speakers.

      Once I got an mini LED flashlight–that was really nice. And useful.

    7. Emi.*

      I like mini-flashlights (or real flashlights, if you have the $$$) and magnetic clips (the kind you can use for chip bags or to put things on the fridge).

      2. Chaordic One*

        I like a nice little Mag-Lite like mini-flashlight on a key-chain.

        Twice I’ve been in stores when the lights went out and I was able to reach in my purse and pull it out and find my way out of the store. Once, I had a whole group of about 10 people following me and I led them out of the store. (We abandoned our shopping carts because the cash registers didn’t work and we couldn’t buy anything.)

    8. periwinkle*

      Not pocket knives! Anyone flying to the conference with just carry-ons will remember your company as the reason they got stopped by the TSA!

      I like handy items for travel or home. A cord wrap would be great, as would magnet clips or screen cleaning kits. And never underestimate the value of pens! If you’re going to give out pens, give out *good* pens with cushy grips and gel ink. Pens are always my favorite swag. Oooh, a pen on a cord is hugely useful at conferences! (retractable only, though, unless you’re also handing out Tide-to-Go pens)

    9. afiendishthingy*

      I never use flash drives. I like decent pens, flashlights, notepads, business card holders, coffee cups, stress balls/fidget toys.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      At my first ever writing conference at Mizzou last November, we got little Clinique kits with trial size face cream and stuff in a cosmetic bag. The bookstore provided them. I love stuff like that. You can’t have too many cosmetic bags. I save them for traveling, use them in my purse, etc. Also, at an admin seminar at Exjob, the presenter gave out prizes for participation (dumb but fun). I got a tiny orange beach chair for my phone, like a low beach chair for a Barbie. It’s so cute. Arlo (my new phone) is too fat for it, but he’s sitting in it right this minute anyway. :)

      Tote bags, blank notebooks, and pens are also good. I like flash drives but if it’s less than 8 GB, it’s not worth it. Oh, t-shirts, too. Free t-shirts are always good. And stadium cups!!

      I LIKE IT AAAAAAAALLLLL

      1. Merci Dee*

        Cosmetic bags are awesome. I have everything in my purse tucked into 4 different cosmetic bags. When I get ready to switch purses, I toss the smaller bags into the new purse, and I’m done!

    11. Infinity Anon*

      If you are trying to get people to stop by your booth, food seems to work best. I went to a conference where one booth had an espresso machine and was making lattes and another had a popcorn machine. Both had long lines.

    12. CheeryO*

      I got a mini folding lint roller from a conference that’s awesome to stick in my purse. The company rep said something about the women at the conference going nuts for them and the men, not so much, but I thought it was a neat thing to give out!

    13. This is me*

      I just got back from a conference and the temperature setting in the center was FREEZING> We put in our survey we wanted hoodies or snuggies next year

      1. Chaordic One*

        Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd gave out tubes of lip balm at trade shows and had small bowls of them to give to customers at our office. Employees could help themselves, but were told not be pigs about it. I had 3 or 4 of them when I left and they lasted for a year or so afterwards. The free lip balm is about the only thing I miss about the place.

    15. ToodieCat*

      USB chargers, especially the ones that let you charge several devices at once. You can’t have too many of those.

    16. Iris Carpenter*

      Decent, large-capacity flash drives, sealed in a bag so no one can load malware on an return it to your stall.
      One of the best things was a small folding umbrella. But then I hve to deal with UK weather.
      Laser pointers if possible.
      A decent bag to put all the swag in.
      Pen/laser pointer
      Pen/torch
      Anything relevant to your industry? E.G. Nikon gave out squeeze-foam toys shaped and colored as a camera.

    17. Artemesia*

      You can never have too many flash drives; on the other hand, we are knee deep in water bottles.

    18. Brogrammer*

      We give out charger packs. They’re more expensive than flash drives, but they’re always a hit.

    19. Ramona Flowers*

      I hate flash drives. Sorry. I like pens, notepads, sticky notes and squeeze balls.

      1. Artemesia*

        Lots of people like toys e.g. small stuffed animals, puzzles etc. When my kids were young we sort of had them conditioned to think that small bars of soap and swag from conferences were great gifts when we returned from trips. They loved the little flashlights, squeeze balls, animals etc.

        1. Nic*

          As a kid I LOVED it when my parents returned from conferences because of the swag.

          My favorite one was one of those twisty tubes with a bulb on each side and liquid inside, that moves up and boils in your hands. That’s not a great explanation, but “hand boiler” will pull up pics on google.

    20. SQL Coder Cat*

      Nice pens. A pocket wallet of different sizes and colors of Post It notes. Portable USB chargers or bluetooth speakers.

      I also have a pair of spectacularly bright, overly thick sweatsocks with a vendor’s logo on them. Since they were given out during a conference in Denver, during a snowstorm, they were particularly awesome.

    23. Chaordic One*

      If you have a nice mascot or logo, then a mug or a baseball hat or something like that is always good. But most companies don’t really have very good mascots or logos. Sigh.

    25. Sam Foster*

      I view flash drives as cheap and a security risk.

      I like “trinkets” like stuffed animals or other “cutesy” tchotchke. Favorite recent one was a bright orange zebra squeeze toy.

      I want to amused.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I have a squeeze toy shaped like a cow that I’ve kept on my desk.

        We have highlighter wheels. They are so popular that staff aren’t allowed to take them unless there are leftovers (and there never are). I highly recommend trying these – people love them.

    26. Chaordic One*

      One of my favorite pieces of conference swag was from a client who contracted with a toy company to make little customized toy trucks that looked like their delivery vehicles. The toy company made a variety of different toy cars and trucks, but would do small custom runs of an existing model with customized paint and tampo logos for clients. They were sort of like little Matchbox or Hot Wheels, but a little bigger, and they looked just like the delivery trucks the client company used.

  96. UK job hunt help!*

    I’m looking for a job in the U.K. for the first time (recently moved from Australia) – any tips for job hunting? I’m looking for a job as an engineer, with about 8yrs experience.

    Any tips on:
    – what to wear (clothes, makeup, heels etc)
    – any relevant cultural quirks
    – what to expect from the process
    – particular phrases to use, avoid etc
    Anything else?!

    Thank you in advance!!!

    1. Blue Anne*

      I don’t think there are a lot of differences! At least having interviewed in the UK and the USA, I found them to be pretty much the same.

      I would make it clear from as early as possible that you don’t need them to get you a work visa, though. (Assuming that’s true.)

      1. Job hunt in the UK*

        Awesome! Thanks for the reply! (I have a work visa as you guessed – now I just need a job!!!)

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Other than that, it’s hard to know how to advise as I don’t know what you’ve been used to in Australia!

        1. Job hunt in the UK*

          Haha, yes! That’s the problem isn’t it!

          I’m used to thank you notes – that’s weird that they’re not really done.

          Otherwise I’d normally wear my nicest business dress, flats, maybe not makeup (depends how I feel!); turn up on time or a minute or two earlier, and go from there!

  97. Reporting to an Incompetent boss seems to be common*

    Authoritarian management style. How do you cope with it?

      2. Delta Delta*

        Excellent. Take zero initiative and follow the authoritarian’s rule to the letter. It’d be frustrating and correct all at the same time.

      3. Nic*

        Agreed.
        And if the rule is in any way vague, be persistent in asking for clarification until it is crystal clear.

  98. Anne*

    https://www.philanthropy.com/article/How-Compassion-Fatigue-Can/183929

    My last week on the job, I was writing a grant report containing yet another bunch of descriptions of human rights violations, and I found it really strange how much the content was getting to me. It usually didn’t get to me at all. I was always able to let that stuff roll off me.

    Well it’s been about a week and I’ve been thinking and talking about my job a lot, and I’m realizing- I wasn’t letting it roll off me at all! I was just repressing and minimizing how much it was getting to me, which allowed me to do my job, but oh boy I do not think it was good for me at ALL.

    New job has nothing to do with murder and trauma and I couldn’t be happier about it. Somebody else can handle human rights for a while.

    2. Elbategev*

      I’ve worked directly with gender-based violence survivors my whole career so far and yes, this! The only reason I can do my job is that I have very strict rules for my self-care and I see a therapist. The work impacts you big time and the culture of sacrificing for your cause/being impacted as a symptom of being weak or new to the work that you find in a lot of non-profit circles does not help. I’m so glad you realized when you needed a break rather than burning out completely, which I’ve seen so many people do.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        I hate the idea that you’re weak if you’re affected – vicarious trauma is real and serious.

        I work with people in serious distress in various ways and couldn’t do it without a supportive team, a good EAP and we have clinical supervision. I still wound up being off sick after being affected by work with survivors of a recent bombing. Thankfully work were very helpful and supportive.

    3. Anono-me*

      Thank you both, and every one else who takes care of our humanity.

      Congratulations on the new position.

  99. LizB*

    Just got an email from my longest-tenured team member asking to set up a meeting with me because she has some things she wants to discuss. NOOOO DON’T LEAVE, AWESOME TEAM MEMBER. *minor panic attack*

    1. LizB*

      Aaaaand there’s the resignation letter. ARGH. I’m out of town all next week and I feel like a panicky mess thinking about how much work I’m going to have when I get back. I planned this trip ages ago and there’s no canceling or rescheduling at this point, but it is literally at the worst time for like seven reasons.

  100. Starting Over*

    More of an educational question, but since references are often talked about here, I thought I’d ask.
    I’m looking to go back to grad school and make a career change after 22 years of owning/running my own business. Looking at the application requirements for the graduate program, I need to have three references who are “at academic institutions” and can “speak to my ability to read and write for academic audiences and assess my potential for success at the graduate level”
    So I went back to the web site for the university where I got my bachelor’s degree, and exactly ZERO professors I interacted with are still there. I suppose I could try to track some of them down, but what are the odds of getting a reference from them 22+ years later?
    My business has been a one woman show, with occasional contractors taking projects when the workload got too big. I never wanted to expand and bring in people on a regular basis because I didn’t want to spend time administering – I wanted to do the actual work instead of payroll, etc. But that means I don’t have a manager or any coworkers who can be references! My occasional contractors just took projects and completed them, and weren’t working at my side, so they can’t really speak to my abilities, either. Because of the nature of the work, it’s not ongoing, and repeat work isn’t common.
    I did some teaching for an online school about 10 years back, I could ask my boss from that time to be one of them, but how do I get the other two?
    I’m at a loss here.

    1. mona*

      I would probably contact them and ask.

      References were difficult for me even thought I started a PhD almost directly after my M.A. and my M.A. immediately after my B.A. Maybe your school has a special policy for people like you? Like, maybe you can turn to a professor from the institution and present yourself and your resume and they can write you something? I’ve heard of different institutions handling that differently.

    2. fposte*

      Definitely contact them and ask. You will not be the only person to have faced this problem. Sometimes the solution is that you take a course as a community credit student (there are different terms for that), and they then assess your application based on your performance there (and you can often get that credit applied to your degree).

    3. Simone R*

      I think that this could be more or less a problem depending on the field you’re applying to as well. In my experience humanities tends to take the academic reference more seriously than the sciences for example. As noted above it’s worth it to ask the program you’re interested in especially if that’s noted on a general grad division app that covers multiple programs.

    4. HannahS*

      Contact the school and ask what to do. Make sure that you speak (or email) to someone fairly high up and not a front-desk worker who provides info. The front desk worker might not realize that certain requirements can be waived; I’ve found that they often repeated policies back to me and told me that they couldn’t be changed. It’s also good to come with a potential solution. Maybe the one reference, plus documents proving that you ran a business successfully (showing work ethic and dedication), plus a writing sample would be ok in lieu of three references.

    5. Chaordic One*

      Well, you will obviously be a “nontraditional student”. Being a “nontraditional student” is NOT a bad thing, it does have some challenges. You have to frame your background in a way that would make you an attractive applicant who would benefit from graduate school and use to contribute to the world going forward.

      I would think that they might accept references from people other those at academic institutions, but you should check first and explain your situation. You might try to frame it as you contributing to the diversity of the program with your unusual background.

      On the surface of things it kind of sounds like your business was successful. Do you have any testimonials from satisfied customers? (Ideally ones you worked with closely.) Yelp reviews? Did you belong to any professional groups or networks where other members could vouch for your professionalism and explain what you did?

      1. Starting Over*

        I definitely was involved in a local professional group (ten+ years on the board, one as president, though it has been a few years since then.) so I could easily get references from fellow board members. I’ve also done some writing/blogging/lobbying for the national group so I could get a reference from a board member there, and I have two professional journal publications if they want to see academic writing. I wouldn’t be opposed to writing something new as well if that would help.
        I’m definitely a good candidate and I have no doubt I can do grad school. I loved college and found it invigorating, got good grades. Ever since my kids have been to college I’ve been itching to go back myself!
        I’ll have to see if they’ll be open to looking beyond academic institution recommendations, because the narrowness of that is the issue.

  101. annamouse*

    What do you do when you’ve basically reached the bitch-eating-crackers stage with most of the people in your office? Especially the people who work closest to you who don’t seem to be pulling their own weight or even showing up a lot of the time. I am tired of being everyone’s executive function and coverage.

    1. Temperance*

      I’ve stopped covering when I’ve been in those situations, but it hurt me and not the person not doing the work.

    2. Infinity Anon*

      Have you tried bringing it up to your boss? If you have to cover for your co-workers often and it is affecting the time you have to do your actual work you should definitely mention the problem. If your coworkers are just assuming you will be there to cover, you can also try making yourself less predictable (depending on your job). Take lunch at different times everyday, do more tasks away from your desk if possible, basically do anything you can to make it clear that they can’t count on you to pick up their slack without letting your job performance suffer.

  102. mcr-red*

    I work in a niche industry that doesn’t have a lot of jobs or advancement opportunities. I’ve been applying for several years for jobs outside the industry but somewhat related and have gotten a few interviews, but no offers. I’ve applied for jobs I’m overqualified for and get nowhere. I’ve asked about advancement within my company, possibly in a different role, and have been told that nothing in this area exists and I would have to move (and for various reasons I cannot right now.) I’ve worked for my company for almost 2 decades, and though I’ve gained A LOT of extra responsibilities, and am now doing at least 3 people’s former job responsibilities, I don’t have a “promotion” I have the same job title. I think this looks awful when I turn in my resume. Any ideas? If you’re this stuck, are there any options? I’ve thought about going back to school for a whole new career, but wouldn’t know what to study.

    1. Alastair*

      Hard to answer with the details here but from one industry changer to another:

      Be prepared for lateral or downward moves.
      Find an industry that interests you.
      Beware of coming across as seeking a foot in the door.
      If you think all you need is a foot in the door realize that your career trajectory in the new industry probably won’t be faster than the old industry/some one at that level in the industry.
      Find the same job in a different industry.
      Address the change in your cover letter.
      Be aware that the “why did you switch industries” question will follow you a surprisingly long time. Also for internal promotions so have a good answer that’s truthful.

  103. Womperoni*

    Applied to two diff types of jobs – non profit in an area I have some experience and I love, and clerical law, because I am 80% sure I want to go to law school. Interviewed both places, final round. Waiting on answers.

    I may likely be rejected from both, but wondering what to do if I get both. How do I decide??

  104. Plaidskies*

    I have a job interview next week for an Office Coordinator position for a small firm — the next step in my career that I have been working towards for a long time now.
    How do I show them that I can do this job, and how do I do a job that was never full-time in this office before now?
    The other issue is the person who would normally be interviewing and knowing the role passed away and so right now the managing partners are doing the interviewing/hiring (and when I asked questions like “If given this role, in the first 30 days what would you like me to have accomplished?” during the phone interview, the partner said that they were all great questions but he does not know) — in some ways this is a good thing I think (?) because it would give me the opportunity to craft the role to the firm’s needs and we would sort of all grow together.
    But what can I do to make myself stand out among other candidates competing who may have more managerial experience than I do?

  105. Justme*

    I have a tangentially work related question. My current boss and former boss both wrote recommendation letters for me for a scholarship. I got the scholarship. Is a thank you note an appropriate way to thank them or do I need to do more?

    1. Emi.*

      A thank-you letter is great, and then stay in touch/send them updates from whatever you get to do because of that scholarship. If you sent them a present it would be weird and feel too quid-pro-quo.

      And congratulations!

      1. Justme*

        Thank you! I’m still going to be employed at my current place, so my current supervisor will hear about it. Supervisor also gets to go to the awards ceremony with me. I work at a university.

  106. Janine Willcall*

    Question for managers, and sorry for the huge post! How much weight do you expect to carry when maintaining a relationship with your direct reports?

    Background: I have a great manager who’s always been hard to get a hold of for lots of legitimate reasons. But recently we got a couple more workers in my department, and my office was moved, and I’m starting to feel like Milton from Office Space– no one ever comes by my cube. If I want face time, I have to walk over to where everyone else sits. The newer reports also sit right by manager, so they’ll have all those wonderful face to face, spontaneous meetings that I get informed about later. We don’t have regular meetings scheduled, and there’s not really an actual need to because things are getting done just fine.

    (To confound the whole thing, I recently got more telework days, and I’d like to request more– it sounds counterintuitive, but to me it feels silly for me to have a butt in the seat when I could literally sit at my desk all day and never see a single person from my department.)

    I’ve told my manager I’m unhappy with the arrangement and that I feel isolated, but moving back is 100% no-go. So what next? Am I being unreasonable to ask that I don’t always have to initiate contact with my manager and team?

    1. Argh!*

      No, you’re not being unreasonable but you will probably not be successful. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind is a truism for a reason. It’s going to be up to you to stay looped-in. You could try to find excuses to wander into the area, or invite the newbies to join you for coffee to catch up and stay on their radar. Social isolation for just one team member is a very, very bad thing.

      1. Janine Willcall*

        Sigh, thanks– this is the hard truth I needed to hear. Time to start mentally adding ‘stay in the loop activities’ to my daily work load.

  107. Lily Rowan*

    You people will tell me if I’m being tacky/inappropriate, right?

    I walk by the Mothers’ Room all the time. They have disinfecting wipes in there. We’ve been told not to bring a container to our office, but to just take one at a time from the storage room. As far as I know, they are only stored on a different floor, across the office. So I’ve been taking them (one at a time) from the Mother’s Room. Obviously not when anyone’s in there!

    So: Tacky? Inappropriate?

    1. Emi.*

      I think that’s probably fine, unless the Mother’s Room wipes and the storage room wipes are bought out of different funds.

    2. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t do it. If a room is set aside for specific people and I’m not one of those people, I won’t enter it.

    3. Infinity Anon*

      I think it’s only ok if you need one quickly for some reason. It should not be a regular occurrence. Is there a reason that they are stored in only one place? Maybe you can ask if it would be possible to designate a second place for them to be stored so that it is easier. Alternatively, you could get a zip-lock bag to keep a few wipes in (enough for one week maybe?) that you can keep in your office. This would limit the number of times you need to go to the storage room without messing up the inventory.

    4. LCL*

      I’m not going to answer your question. Instead, I want to hear more about the person in your office who is micromanaging the disinfecting wipes. Your company supplies them but you aren’t allowed to have them in your office? What?

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I don’t know, man. I guess they just don’t want everyone hoarding them in their desks.

        1. LCL*

          Sometimes, not always, this kind of micromanagement can be solved by talking to your manager, unless they are the micromanaging one. Phrase it as, ‘can you order us some disinfecting wipes? The company stocks them but our work group isn’t allowed to have any.’

          1. Lily Rowan*

            It’s mostly my problem, because I am a rules follower. I have been told not to keep a container of wipes in my desk, so I don’t! Even though many other people do. I think I’ll just go get a container and bring it back here.

  108. T3k*

    No questions this week, just a small update. I’ve been struggling to get any kind of job for almost a year (unemployed) and a friend pointed out an entry area I didn’t look at before, so I got 2 interview set up today in that area. I also applied for the equivalent of the bottom rung of the ladder for the field I am interested in and got an email wanting to schedule an interview for that next week, so woot, things are starting to look better, though not out of the woods yet.

  109. Uncivil Engineer*

    I had an unfortunate week at work due to a very irate citizen who lives in the jurisdiction of government agency I work for. A piece of infrastructure broke and caused damage to several homes while also inconveniencing the occupants. My name was incorrectly listed as the contact for a project that was supposed to fix that piece of infrastructure. It turned out there wasn’t an actual project so there was no one for me to refer him to and he then decided I was the best choice as the target for his string of email rants (in which he cc’d ALL his elected officials (EO)) about how he deserves better facilities because of all the taxes he pays and clearly I’ve misused his tax dollars.

    I spent hours and hours relaying information to him but ultimately decided that he wasn’t interested in information, he just wanted to complain. Loudly. To everyone. At one point, I asked myself: What is he hoping to achieve by this? Is he trying to get me fired for not completing a project that didn’t exist? That’s not going to happen. If he doesn’t get what he wants, is he threatening to take his business elsewhere? We’re the government. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with each other until you move or we go bankrupt.

    One of the staff for an EO eventually emailed me to say the EO had responded to the citizen and everything was fine. I don’t know what was discussed but I doubt it was, “The reason your home was damaged was because I put together and voted for a budget that didn’t include the replacement of that infrastructure.” That’s actually what happened. It’s a shame I can’t say that out loud.

      1. Uncivil Engineer*

        Fortunately, no. It’s already on the list of things to fix in order of priority. It has to wait its turn. We have an actual, written policy about how to prioritize infrastructure fixes and “customer complaints” is not one of the variables.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Oh how I miss government work!
      I kept a book of the outrageous emails, public records request and other crazy stuff to give to my successor. Just so they wouldn’t be surprised.

  110. Kalliopesmom*

    So, I had a strange conversation with my boss the other day about work place norms. I have worked in offices for 20 years and also hold a Bachelor’s degree. He worked in construction for 20 plus years and in our office for the last 5 or so. One of our accounting ladies quit (from our other office) after others were going through her desk whenever they needed something. I said this was unprofessional and if the others needed something from her they should have asked or at least given her a heads up. He countered with no, the other admins can do what they want she doesn’t own her office. I replied with, that is how unprofessional that office is. Its nicer to ask and not just go through someone’s desk. He said, I go through your desk. Right, but you are my boss and I have nothing to hide or personnel information. I have never had anyone of my PEERS go through my desk without my permission. There is a hierarchy in place. A standard of professionalism. So what are your thoughts on this???

    1. Amber Rose*

      Depends on the office. In my office, the only time I would ask before going through someone’s desk is if they were currently sitting at it. I would never go through a manager’s desk without permission but everyone else is fair game. I know they dig around in mine also. I never assume I can keep anything very private at my desk.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        This just all but brought me out in hives. I do not like people touching anything on my desk. And going through it? Nooooo.

        Happily I work in an office where this is a big no and everyone has lockable drawers.

    2. Murphy*

      I would never go through anyone’s desk! What the hell? (I wouldn’t want my boss going through my desk either, for that matter.)

      We have an admin who has supplies on the shelves of her cube that we’re allowed to take when needed, but I have her permission (and obviously I let her know what I’m doing if she’s there when I do it).

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        My desk is in the open area, so anyone can grab what they need, so I don’t keep confidential records here, but if I had an office (there isn’t one available) I wouldn’t let anyone just go through my desk. I have an order to things.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s professional or unprofessional; it’s a question of office culture.

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        Since I am not in that office, I am not positive about their office culture. I do know that there is a high turn around rate based on “personality clashes” But I still wouldn’t go through someone else’s desk when it easier to just ask for whatever was needed.

        1. fposte*

          Sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s unprofessional to do that–that’s all I’m saying. It can be wrong because it’s out of step, but I don’t think it’s categorically a breach of standards.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      This is so weird. I’ve never worked anyplace where going through someone’s desk is okay. When I was the receptionist at OldExjob, people would sometimes borrow my stapler and forget to return it, but it was sitting right out there in plain view. That stopped after I bought a bright pink/orange one and put a sticker on it with Milton Waddam’s face and the word “MINE!” But people did not go through my drawers, cabinets, etc.

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        When i told him that I had never worked in an office where this was ok, he looked at me like I had two heads. So odd. He just doesn’t understand that this is not cool. I put tape on my pens that say NAME so these guys will leave my pens alone. I am very particular about which brand of pen I use – lol.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      It definitely depends on office culture AND personal preference. I feel squeamish about the idea of someone using my desk if I’m out, let alone rooting through my things! I always ask permission before using someone else’s desk and I would never open drawers or cabinets that aren’t mine.

      I’m with you… there is a standard of professionalism that should be upheld. Sure, we may not own the desks we sit at, but there is something to be said for a personal space at work.

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        I would not feel comfortable going through a Peers desk unless asked or directed. My boss is really disorganized so I know his desk better than him. lol. But these guys in my office are former construction workers now organizers (union) so they don’t understand workplace cultures. They actually had a meeting about me before I started and talked about what they couldn’t talk about any longer with a female in the office – lol. Once they saw me yell at the printer with a few cuss words, they deemed me cool. It was a total adjustment for me to get used to this very lax environment. The other office where the incident happened is very toxic from what I hear. There is one admin that thinks she is in charge, no education or experience and from what I can tell in our correspondence – no clue how to use word, adobe or other programs. I am grateful that I don’t work in that office.

    6. atexit8*

      Highly unprofessional.

      I would never do it, and I have never done it.

      How does he feel about somebody going through his desk?

      1. Kalliopesmom*

        He is fine with me going through his desk but no one else. I still think that he doesn’t understand office cultures and professionalism yet. I have written in here before about a toxic lady that I don’t work for bossing me around and he was so unsure of what to do. Thank fully that situation was handled.

    7. Delta Delta*

      My husband once returned to his office and found his boss sitting in his chair, rifling through his drawers. Boss sheepishly said he was looking for a fork. This made zero sense. Husband has since left that job, with good and obvious reason.

    8. l*

      It’s more of a question how this is done. We have a clear desk policy, we can’t leave personal things on our desks overnight and we have to book seats – basically we move around the office. I do take scissors, pencils or similar when I see someone left them and I need them.

      In another office, our belongings are locked into our desks, so even if I wanted I couldn’t go through them. But yes, when seating on a new place (just like in the first place we change seats), I sometimes check whether someone left something in the desk.

      Of course I wouldn’t go through somebody’s things left on their desk – like someone has a book or a printout or a mobile phone left on their desk and I go through it – that’s totally a no-go! So basically, it depends on how you interpret “going through someone’s things”.

  111. Peacetrain*

    How do I tell someone at my organization that my team member is not his assistant? A year or so ago, I hired someone who worked for our organization previously, back then she was a customer service/staff support person. In her former role, she was the go-to for helping with office admin stuff that people may not know how to do/are too lazy to do themselves. She left, got more experience, I hired her back in a manager position. A manager in another department can’t seem to get it into his head that she no longer provides admin support for him. And that she’s his peer now. He’s asked her a few times to help him prepare and ship packages, which has nothing to do with her role, and she has done it because she’s a nice person. I helped her come up with a way to frame it as her teaching him how to do it but he keeps coming back with a smarmy “aw, shucks, I forgot how… again.” She’s still building confidence in her new role and doesn’t want to flat out tell him no, while I’m more than willing to be that abrupt. Also, he’s an older white guy, she’s a young minority and the optics on this are bad, to my eyes. So my hackles are already up and I need help with polite/firm language to put an end to this before I say what I’m thinking.

      1. Peacetrain*

        Unfortunately, we no longer have admin support for any department. I think he was probably super excited to see this person return because in his mind it was the return of his support system.

    2. Emi.*

      I’d recommend telling him “Please stop pulling Jane off her actual work to help you with admin stuff. She has the same kind of responsibilities as you do, and I need her to be able to focus on them.” And then I’d tell her not to help him anymore–even if she’s a nice person, she needs to focus on her actual job and not undermine her authority (especially since she’s a manager!), so you can insist on this. If she’s really uncomfortable with it, even with coaching, can you just tell her not to help him anymore, so it’s not her refusing? And it sounds like his boss would be your peer (right?) so you can look him/her in if he persists.

      1. Peacetrain*

        Oooh…that’s what I was looking for. I just need to memorize this. I’ll definitely go to his boss (who is my peer) if I have to but I want to make sure my annoyance with the guy isn’t making me overreact.

    3. fposte*

      Does she report to you? Then you can definitely tell him. “Bob, I need Jane to focus on the work I’ve hired her for; that means she can’t do clerical work for you. Please don’t ask her again. You can ask Lucinda and Fergus if you need help.”

      If she’s on your same level, it’s up to her boss to say something to Bob.

      1. Peacetrain*

        She does report to me. Our organizational culture is pretty flat, so it’s not uncommon for people to directly seek out whoever they think can help them, but he does have a Lucinda and a Fergus in his own department who can help him. Thanks for the script tips, I’ll definitely use them.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      “I’m sorry Bob I’ve got my own work to do.”
      Teach her those words and tell her repeat them as often as necessary.

    7. Observer*

      You need to tell her to turn him down. And to refer him to you when she does so. Either he’ll come to you or not.

      If you think he’s going to try to go around you, then have her let you know the next time he asks her, and tells him no. Then email him, cc’ing the person up the chain he might be going to, reiterating that she is NOT supposed to be helping him with these tasks. She’s spent more that enough time trying to teach him this part of his job, and at this point you need him to either figure it out or find someone else to help him.

  112. NoHose*

    Question: Is your BEST friend at your current work place?

    I have a very best friend…and I’ve never worked with her. I have very good office mates, and coworkers with whom I’m on very good terms, some with whom I’m friendly and some with whom I’m professionally polite. But my best friend? Not yet.

    There’s been many ex-coworkers, however, with whom I’ve maintained friendships and contacts through the years, but still none are my best friend.

    I ask because the other day I walked past a co-worker introducing her sister-in-law to her best friend, another co-worker and I found it odd…but maybe it’s not that odd or uncommon at all.

    What say you, good people?

    2. Marillenbaum*

      No–my best friend is someone I met in college, and we work in completely different fields (I do international affairs; she teaches elementary school music). It’s really lovely, because 1) we each think the other person’s work sounds delightful and fascinating, and 2) there’s never the potential for a weird crossing of streams.

    3. Justin*

      Never for me.

      At my old job, four co-workers were so close that one had a baby and the others named her child.

      That seems… sweet to some, but it meant there was a whole lot of covering for each other and zero accountability, so, I tend to think it’s not ideal.

      My current job, two coworkers spend an hour a day chatting about one of their weddings. It’s just sort of annoying, but they get their work done. So, it can work, but I think it’s risky.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I haven’t maintained close connections with many friends from college. I left the state as soon as I graduated and don’t have any hobbies that allow me to make friendships outside of work. I am also an introvert and 100% okay with this.

      That said, I would say that my circle of friends includes my work team and some of my partner’s colleagues. One of my coworkers is getting married soon and I have been invited to the wedding, which was a nice surprise.

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Nope. I’ve been in my job for about a year and am close to my colleagues but not in a BFF way. My best friends are two people from college, an old housemate and a group I met through my husband.

    6. Anon Anon*

      No. My BFF and I went to college together.

      I have a couple of very good friends at work, but once one of us leaves the organization, I suspect that we’ll be friends, but not nearly as close.

    7. Annie Mouse*

      I transferred from a third-party company to the main EMS provider last year and a few others came with me (we all saw the opportunity to get a more stable job at the same time). One of them lives nearby and we were already friends so we shared lifts for training and things and I’d now count her as one of my best friends (my other best friend is from uni). It’s great to have someone who I can ring and chat to about work when I need to, and she does the same with me. Sometimes having someone you can sound off about things with, who knows what it’s like to do the job we do and knows that sometimes the response to the stuff we see is coffee and a hug, makes a big difference.

  113. LT*

    Had an odd situation happen this week:

    An individual shows up for her interview which usually takes about 45/60 minutes. About 15 minutes after the start of her interview we hear someone honking/laying on their horn every couple of minutes. After some detective work we found out it was her baby daddy (her words) who had driven her to the interview and was tired of waiting for her. One of our office staff told the gentleman the interview would be another 30 minutes and asked him to stop, he did decrease the frequency and intensity of the honking but did not stop entirely. There were a couple other red flags where I will not be moving forward with this individual but wanted others thoughts on not hiring someone based upon the actions of someone else? Has anyone else ever had something like this happen to them before?

    2. Rainy, PI*

      I’d be very concerned that hiring the person would result in some of the behaviours we see in letters about “my coworker’s current/ex is stalking people in my office because he thinks she’s cheating” or “my coworker’s partner has told her she’s forbidden to travel” or “my coworker’s boyfriend reached out to our boss demanding she be given time off”. Etc etc. Whether that’s *fair* or not I don’t know, but in anything where bringing in a new person will also bring in boundary-crashing from their s/o, I’d think twice myself.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would be very concerned, too, but I’d also pay close attention to how the applicant responded. Did she scream out the window, or leave the interview to scream at him in the street? Even bigger red flags. Did she act mortified yet mostly composed, and say she’d talk to him about it later, but she didn’t want to cut the interview short? That means she might be smart enough to either get out or at least keep him away from her place of employment from then on. Even in the latter case, I can understand not wanting to take the risk on her depending on how strong a candidate she was, but I can also understand wanting to take it, you know?

      1. The IT Manager*

        She called him her “baby daddy” instead of ride, partner, or child’s father. I think you can extrapolate that she is not strong on professional norms.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Wow! You dodged a bullet. I would have called the cops on the guy since he didn’t stop honking after your colleague updated him on the situation, which was WAY more than you were obligated to do.

  114. pat benetardis*

    Any headhunters here?

    Wow I really wish there were a bunch of headhunters who are regular readers (I don’t think there are based on the comments). It would be cool if the search terms could somehow draw them in.
    My latest annoyance: headhunter emails me about an open position that the Grand Poobah of teapot strategy at mystery company specifically recommended I be reached out to about. But the recruiter also writes that no additional detail will be shared without a phone call.

    This is annoying because I am happily employed in a field that has more opportunities than qualified people for. If he really does want me to call him, more details than that little teaser are going to be needed. And if Grand Poohbah of Strategy is interested in me, she should give me a call. I know a fair amount of people in those roles so it could be any one of them.
    Ok, vent over.

    1. NoMoreMrFixit*

      My experience with headhunters doing this is that they were lying like a rug to try and reel me in. When I pressed for details on how they got my contact info they got evasive as heck and wouldn’t answer the question. Then got whiny when I told them that I wasn’t interested given their lack of cooperation. To be honest in 25 years working in IT I have never had a single pleasant experience with headhunters.

  115. Fake old Converse shoes*

    This week I created my YouTube channel, to which I upload recorded live streams from a specific venue. I’m a huge fan of Classical Music, but I barely mention to people because of the prejudice around it. I took me a while to open it because I feared YouTube would shut down my personal account if I posted supposedly copyrighted content, but as the place whose livestream I record has no disclaimer or legal notice in their website and there is plenty of that content already available, I did it with a second account (just in case). I know it’s a grey area, but it fills a void that has no “official” alternative at the moment.

  116. Former Govt Contractor*

    Have you guys had to deal with reverse sexism much? My husband works in an open floor plan with several middle-aged women. The man-bashing and reverse sexism is rampant. For instance, the women openly discuss the physical attributes of male celebrities, they wish the FedEx guy would “bring ME a package” and stuff like that. They complain about men in general – call them all useless children, cheating liars, etc. To compound things, the office manager and the HR person are some of the worst offenders. What to do?

    1. Purple snowdrop*

      That’s not reverse sexism, that’s sexism.

      Interested to see what the replies are as one of my friends is in a very similar situation and I never know what to tell him.

    2. paul*

      I’ve been in a similar situation. Frankly, hearing them discuss physical attributes of male celebrities never bothered me, but the pissing and moaning about “men do this, men are that, blah blah blah” got pretty old. I didn’t really have a person to go to at the time so I just kept quiet and tried to ignore it.

    3. Peacetrain*

      There’s an interesting discussion up thread about how women are trained to be nice. I think the flip side of that is that we’re also taught that it’s okay to talk about men this way and it’s totally not. I actually had to stop a conversation at work once when I realized that we (myself included) were saying things about men that would get a man fired for saying about women. It led to a really interesting discussion on why we thought it was okay to talk like that and how to train ourselves of it and police each other. Now, introspection is part of our organizational culture and it may not be at your husband’s work, but can he bring the topic up within that context? Like, “Huh, it’s interesting to hear you talk that way because of course a man would be fired or seriously reprimanded for it. Why do you suppose you think it’s okay for you to?” The HR person should probably be reminded that her job is to keep the company out of hot water, maybe by linking to a couple SHRM articles on the topic. Our HR person loves the SHRM.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I thought it was interesting that my most recent company harassment training specifically emphasized that harassment at work can occur with the “minority” or “lower status” group (I’m struggling to find a better way ti word that) being the perpetrators. One of their specific examples was a poster saying “Men are like lava lamps, pretty to look at but not too bright.” Another was a female boss being harassed by her male subordinates. And inter-group harassment was used as well, like an American born Indian woman making snide comments about the foreign born Indian man’s accent and clothes. Or warehouse workers teasing each other about being gay or effeminate for different behaviors, whether they were actually gay or not.

        It was interesting because it occurred to me that while I “knew” that already, I also know that some of the examples they gave would not have flagged my radar if they had occurred in front of me.

        Also, I think with the women talking about men/treating men derisively, it’s very prevalent in media. Especially sitcoms and commercials aimed at woman demographics so that serves to reinforce the idea that it’s “okay” to do. So many go with the “competent and gorgeous but nagging wife, and bumbling idiot with a heart of gold husband” formula. (And of course, the flip side is that in the sitcoms the women just shake their heads and the men and sigh and figure that boys will be boys rather than actually standing up for themselves or expecting their husband to be a competent partner or leaving.)

        1. Alastair*

          Ironically I just got in a spat with a friend today after she posted that it is literally impossible to be racist to white people.

  117. Softball Curveball - Interview Question #1*

    What answer is the interviewer in a phone screen looking for when she says, “what do you know about our company?” and like 95% of what I know I learned from their company website and the other 5% is from the press releases that are regurgitated in the local or industry news.
    Do I just regurgitate this? To me, this seems a little bit like, “I can read and be the expert on YOUR LIFE!” As a consultant, to some degree I’m ok with this, but I’m not sure if that’s what their looking for – I have advanced degrees, haha, so they know I can read.
    But is saying “Just what I’ve learned from your website and the recent news about X” specific enough?
    Do I need to be more specific and mention 1 or 2 things from the website?
    I know the department that I’m applying to be in wasn’t featured on the website, and I did mention that, and apparently that’s part of why they’re hiring.
    I’m just looking for The Magic Answer to a question that seems easy but is apparently trickier than I thought.

    1. fposte*

      Can you extrapolate from what you read to make a comment, so you’re not just saying “Yup, saw your website”? “From the way you frame yourself on your website and social media, you seem to be a company interested in progressive teapot design but with a strong commitment to serving classic customers.”

    2. Kathenus*

      In my experience this type of question is a good way to find out whether or not the applicant has taken the time to do things like you mentioned – review the website, news releases, etc. When I’m interested in applying somewhere, I sign up for their email newsletters, if they have them, as another way to get more information.

      If you know anything about the company from past networking or conference presentations, you might briefly mention that. Especially for more entry-level positions it can be a great screening question to see if the person has taken the time to do some research on the company, and possibly how their interest/skills/experience fits if appropriate. It can separate them from the ‘cut and paste-ers’ who seem to apply to a ton of places with a quantity versus quality approach to finding a job.

      I once got a job partially, I believe, because I had done such extensive research about the organization – even finding a link into an older version of their website that some of them didn’t know existed – but that actually had some great information on the history.

      I’m not advocating giving a 10 minute dissertation on everything you know, but an elevator speech approach to show 1) you’ve done some homework, and 2) you want to work THERE, not just anywhere.

    3. CAA*

      There’s been more than one time where a candidate really had no clue what we did at all and I got an answer like “I dunno, software, right?” So it’s not enough to say “just what I learned from your website.” Say something like “I know that you build a product to do x and it’s targeted at y market; and oh yes, I read in the news that z is happening.” No need to go on much further than that, just help me understand that you do indeed know something beyond the job title.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I was amazed in the interviews we did to replace me at my old job.

        I worked for a company I can almost guarantee you’ve heard of.

        So many people could not state one correct fact about the company other than the industry we were in. And we have a specific business model that set us (somewhat) apart in the industry that would be an easy talking point.

        It was interesting the number of incorrect statements people made about the company though. I kind of wanted to ask them where they heard that or why they thought that, but it would really have been derailing the interview to satisfy my curiosity so I didn’t.

  118. a.nonny*

    Question about work created for an employer:

    I work for Company A, but occasionally will do some IT consulting for Company B, my last employer. All my former coworkers are utterly hapless with computers, and I guess my replacement doesn’t know how to explain things to their level. Last time I was there they were asking me about mapping network drives, but I didn’t have time to explain it. Now at Company A, I was setting up a new computer and took screenshots of the process of mapping a drive, which I will someday maybe turn into an SOP document because they like that sort of thing at A (although I hate writing them). I know that sort of document would also be useful to B. I also know that if I create a document while on the clock at A, it’s their property. But are the screenshots? Can I use those to write up a document on my own time and own computer, to give to B? And if I do that, can I take that document back to work and tweak it for A? (Do I really want to do that work for free? I don’t know! But I figured I’d start with the ethical considerations first…)

    1. CAA*

      If you took screenshots on Company A’s computer, I wouldn’t use those in a document for Company B. On the other hand, there are many, many documents and web pages available for free about how to map drives. Do you really need to invent a new one, or could you just take an existing one and give it to both Company A and Company B?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      This is a bad idea and I wouldn’t do it. You need a very clear line between them.

  119. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Gross alert:

    I can’t wait to clean out the fridge today! I’ve designated myself with this job because no one else will step up. I have the bleach, vinegar and masks ready. There are colonies- no, universes, of mold growing in there. It smells like decay. Unfortunately, our cleaning crew doesn’t get tasked with cleaning out the fridge and it’s obviously not our receptionist’s job by default. If I don’t do it, no one does.

    Happy Friday!

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      God bless people like you. A former director in my office tackled our revolting fridge himself not long after I started my job. The man spent hours after work on it only to discover that the floor underneath was coated in mold. That’s when they called in professionals.

    3. Neosmom*

      It’s time to burn some popcorn in the microwave – just to cover the stench from the cleanout!

    4. Allie Oops*

      One of my coworkers takes home the mini fridge periodically and power washes it. I think he just wants an excuse to use his gas-powered toy, but whatever works!

    5. Delta Delta*

      I hope you took photos to document the process, and then sent all those photos to your coworkers.

  120. Atomic Orange*

    It’s been a stressful week so I want to throw out a lighter topic out there. Anyone ever had a crush on a coworker?

    I’m of the ‘keep professional, avoid complication at work’ variety. So while I don’t care if others partake in workplace romances, it’s not for me. At my previous job though, I had the biggest, most ridiculous crush on a coworker. I am a little awkward on a good day. So you can imagine my mild internal panic every time I had to talk to him. It’s all past tense now since I’m now in a different job in a different city. And I can pretend that 2 YEARS of crushing never happened except while feeling sorry for myself after yet another terrible first date, or when I contemplate whether liking his social media posts would be ‘too obvious’.

    What about you? Want to share your awkward, embarrassing crush stories? Or the happy stories… those are good too haha.

    1. Friday*

      Oh I had a huge crush on a coworker once. I hate to admit it now but I’d ask him for help finding things in the warehouse when I knew damn well where they were. Then he left the company and I was sad… a few months later he came back and asked me out though! We’ve been married 11 years.

      My opinion: crushes are good! I did have a crush or two before him that went nowhere but oh well, it’s harmless as long as the person holding the crush can maintain professionalism.

    2. Office Love*

      I had a flirtatious friendship with one of my account managers. We became besties really quickly and would low key flirt with one another. I kind of was crushing on him hard but I had to stop myself because he was married, I was in a serious relationship. I would keep our IMs on a separate word doc to read and a bunch of other nonsense. It was bad.

      I ended up leaving the company and he did shortly thereafter. We haven’t spoken since then and unfriended each other on social media. He also declined coming to my wedding. It was just too close for comfort.

    3. Snark*

      One of my coworkers at a job directly out of college was a dead ringer for Natalie Portman. In fairness, I think EVERYBODY was crushing on her, including other heterosexual women.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      My bf of 8.5 years was previously my coworker, so it can work out, just tread carefully. I think what helped was we were working in offices in different states at first and he was the one that was being super cautious (but I didn’t know that til way later). So we established a great friendship first. Then when he’d be visiting my office, we’d occasionally grab lunch or a beer after work. Then he started calling me during the work day and just chat. This went on for a year and then I was laid off. Which became a blessing in disguise because not until then did he confess he had feelings for me the whole time and just didn’t want to start something with a coworker, let alone one a couple thousand miles away. We then had a long distance relationship for a bit until that company closed his office and transferred him here and we’ve been together ever since. But I think the key here was having all that time to develop a trusting friendship first.

    5. completely anon*

      Had a crush on my boss. My marriage was failing, his was on its last legs. It was an informal work environment. We actually joked he was my kinda/sorta boss. We became friends, and he was such a huge support to me when my husband and I split up. The day I stood in his office staring at his mouth wondering what it would be like to kiss him is the day I started looking for another job.

      Its now 2.5 years later, he is weeks away from his divorce being final and is in a relationship with another friend of mine from that organization. I am surprisingly okay with it.

    6. Coalea*

      I currently have a ginormous crush on a client. He is basically my dream guy – smart, handsome, funny, sexy accent… I live in terror that he will find out how I feel!

    7. I hate crushes*

      Deep lurk for this one, obviously.

      I had the major hots for a coworker at an old job. He was probably 15 years younger, but oh, was he fine. We ran into each other a lot in the break room and had quite a few chats. I wanted to ask him out so badly, but I was afraid to–if he said no, or we started something and it didn’t work out, the awkward would be palpable. But when his entire team moved to a different office, I decided to bite the bullet and ask him to coffee.

      I did it over IM and he said yes rather enthusiastically, but then he ghosted. I checked back with him a week or so later and he ummed and oh-gee-I-have-a-lot-going-on’ed, so I dropped it. I’m glad I waited until he was out of my area. Although my feelings were hurt (rejection is never fun), it was just as well; we didn’t have much in common anyway. (I must admit, if we ever ran into each other and the situation were amenable to a bit of Netflix and chill, I would probably go for it.)

      It’s not likely I’ll ever do that again no matter how hot someone is. I told my friends that if I start going on about any guys at work to please just slap me as hard as they could.

    8. Archaeologist*

      Oh yeah. We were just out of college, living and working together 24/7 during the summer field season. Because personal boundaries were kind of blurry in that situation, I got a mutual friend to inquire whether my interest was reciprocated, and Crush told friend, “That’s really flattering, but I don’t sh*t where I eat.” Boundary successfully defined!

    9. Gotta be anon for this*

      Umm.. yeah. I’ve got a crush on one of the guys at work. I’ve not been at this location very long so I’m not 100% sure if he’s single. But to be honest, if he isn’t single, and there’s no chance in that regard, I’m fine with just being friends. Despite the fact that if he asked me on a date I’d say yes, I enjoy working alongside him too much to do anything that would make it awkward between us without being sure it’s worth it. So for now, I’m sticking to hoping our shifts cross paths and enjoying sharing random conversations with him when we have them.

      My organisation is full of couples, I think it’s the nature of what we do, and as far as I know, it doesn’t cause problems, even when those involved are on different levels as it’s a big enough organisation to avoid direct management in the vast majority of cases.

  121. Uyulala*

    How do you get interested enough in a potential job that you can write a good cover letter, but not so interested that you become invested and are crushed if they turn you down.

    1. Hiring Question from Applicant*

      Hi. I am a mid-career applicant with specialized knowledge, but in large metro area. So… if you’re a hiring manager or HR screener going through dozens (hundreds?) of applicants…. when do you check applicants’ social media accounts – before or after calling them for a phone screening?

  122. Nervous Accountant*

    Oh! Just wanted to mention a follow up to last weeks’ question about interview clothes–I scored some nice outfits from JC penney last week! I got 2 pencil skirts, and a blouse for…. $50! Def worth checking out!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      This is handy. I need to talk myself into going clothes shopping for work clothes, and money is tight right now.

  123. Button Popper*

    I have worked in several retail environments and wanted to know people’s opinions on dress codes. I once worked in a retail store that required we wear collared button-up shirts, and dress pants. Over top of our shirts we wore a vest that covered our shirts entirely. The thing that was most annoying was that there were a few of us women who had larger busts and finding collared button-up shirts that fit well and aren’t over $100 is extremely difficult in our area. I was wonder what other’s opinions are.

    I know that employers are allowed to set dress codes, I just get frustrated because it’s so hard to find some of the items of clothing in my size without breaking the bank is hard. On a side note, anyone know of good places to shop in BC Canada for professional looking tops for bustier women?

    1. Rainy, PI*

      Value Village? …but seriously, folks.

      Have you tried eShakti? They make button-down shirts and will make them to your measure for a slight upcharge. The other option is buying button-downs to the measure of your bust/shoulders and then have them tailored. If you can get the shirt on sale to start with, the tailoring usually isn’t too bad. If you’re in Van, I might be able to recommend a tailor.

      1. HannahS*

        No, but for real, if you need something that’s just needs to cover what it needs to cover and doesn’t need to be so flattering AND you want 3 of them, Value Village is the place to go!
        (I get awesome stuff there too, but that requires a bit more of a commitment to going regularly.)

        Laura could work, maybe. They have plus sizes, and even plus petites, which is nice.

    2. Manders*

      Honestly, if the vest totally covers the shirt anyway, I would just pick up a bunch of cheap mens’ button-downs large enough to go over my bust. Or buy button-downs many sizes too large and just deal with the weirdly shaped roll tucked into my pants.

    4. Red Reader*

      I grumble about dress codes for entirely internal-facing positions. Like, I work for a hospital, but I don’t see or interact with patients at all, so who cares if I’m wearing jeans as long as my clothes are neat and clean, and who cares if my forearm tattoo of leaves is peeking out of my sleeve, and who cares if the last 3″ of my ponytail are purple, shouldn’t the fact that I drop 250% productivity on a regular basis be more important than that. But no, our dress code is 8 pages long and ridiculously nitpicky. :P (And the easy thing would be for everyone to wear the official uniform scrubs, but you’re not ALLOWED to wear scrubs if you’re not clinical patient-facing.)

      But then every time I’m onsite in a group of people, for training or meetings or whatnot, at least two of them are violating the dress code in at least one fashion. So.

        1. Red Reader*

          At my old hospital the dress code specified that undergarments must be worn UNDER clothing, not outside (sorry Superman!), and that hair could not be unnatural colors such as green, purple or plaid. Left me really wanting to see someone pull off plaid hair. :-P

  124. Stranger than fiction*

    So, I walked into the ladies room earlier this week and found sh$& on the floor!
    As in, someone missed the toilet either at the beginning or end…and just left it there. It looked like when my dog has the runs and I was completely grossed out. I’m wondering a) how they didn’t notice and b) why in the hell they didn’t clean it up? wtf
    We had to hang a sign on the door all day not to use that restroom for the rest ofnthe day until someone janitorial could come clean it. (a couple of us offered to but were told no no it’s not your job)

    1. atexit8*

      Gross!

      Even if they had a bad case of diarrhea and missed the bowel, she should have at least used the toilet paper to wipe up as much as she can.

      Is it possible it was a man? As it happened after work hours and anybody can go in there.

        1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens more often than you’d think. GROSS.

    2. NPG*

      Our office manager (male) was asked by the Director of HR (female) to make up a sign about this when Director of HR’s mother complained about the mess in the Ladies’ bathrooms; apparently it was a similar situation. He told me about it.

      Apparently this kind of this thing happens more than I thought it did. And I don’t understand it either.

  125. Infinity Anon*

    I just had a second interview for a job and it looks like it is not a good fit. How can I explain to my parents that it doesn’t look like I will get that job but it’s not a bad thing? They keep telling me that I need to approach every interview as if I will get the job and I am the perfect candidate or I will never get the job. I don’t think this is true. I am not a good fit for this job. That is a fact. I don’t think they will offer it because I lack several key skills that were not obvious from the job posting, but even if they did offer it, I’m not sure I would take it. I don’t want to set myself up for failure. In my opinion, this is a good outcome since I now know that this is not job for me, but I can’t get them to understand that and they keep saying I need to work on my self-esteem, which isn’t actually low. Any advice for how to make them understand that not every job is a good job for me?

    1. Stranger than fiction*

      That’s tough, and your parents sound like mine. Like they come from a time where the employer held all the power and they were doing you a favor by just providing a paycheck, no matter what the conditions were or value you brought. But times have changed, and you might start by explaining what the red flags you see are. And point out it may be worse for your resume to accept a job you most likely would end up leaving in a couple months. And also that it’s not right to accept and let the company invest in onboarding and training you when you know you’re just going to leave when you find a better fit.

    2. Camellia*

      And maybe it’s time to stop keeping your parents in the loop every step of the way. There’s lots of good advice, both here and on Captain Awkward, about creating and maintaining boundaries so that you don’t have to spend time explaining and justifying what you do or don’t do.

  126. Batshua*

    My boss continues to try to come up with creative ways to accommodate Rosh Hashanah instead of guaranteeing me the days off.

    However, around the time this trouble started, I was beginning to experience very scary stress-induced pain issues and I realized it would be faster to change jobs than to find a specialist to treat me (who, of course, would also tell me to reduce my stress). Therefore, I recently applied for a change of service line, and was interviewed. Yesterday they offered me the position and today I officially accepted!

    On paper this is a totally lateral move, with no change in pay or title; however, instead of being one of 6 or so clerks, I will be the ONLY clerk who runs approximately 20 clinics. I was assured by my new boss that there are at least 7 people who can cover my shift if I need time off, which she has basically never denied, and she said I could definitely have Rosh Hashanah and it was no problem!

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m glad there’s a happy ending to this story! Hopefully your stress will also be reduced and you’ll begin to feel better.

    4. Batshua*

      I’ll note last week I bit the bullet and escalated the situation to my grandboss, at which point my boss started to try to figure out if there was some way she could make it work. (Honestly, she could make it work with two clerks for two days. It wouldn’t be pretty, but it could be done.)

      I really didn’t want to go over my boss’s head, but I figured given that the union and HR wasn’t getting much of anywhere and I didn’t want to have to go the EEO route…

      1. o.b.*

        (1) phew, congrats!
        (2) curious – how does one even “creatively” work around granting you a religious holiday??

        1. Observer*

          Try to find her someone who will grant her a dispensation?

          That’s only half joking – My mother is OBVIOUSLY Orthodox, and everyone in her work unit knew it. She left early every Friday during the winter, never ate food she didn’t bring in, etc. In addition, she had brought in a note from a Rabbi (on official stationary) that she is a Sabbath Observer, observing the Sabbath from Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday so that she would be allowed to leave early on Fridays. And her supervisor STILL told her that she’d need to work overtime on Saturday, and when reminded about the the Sabbath issue, asked her to get a dispensation from her Rabbi. Fortunately, HR / the higher ups knew better than that.

        2. Batshua*

          She was asking stuff like if I could go to only evening services, or if I could just duck out for the morning, or if I could wait until day of to see if we could get coverage from another department …

          Yeah, she practically asked me to get a dispensation.

          One of my friends suggested I go to a hashkama minyan, but I don’t live in a place that has enough Jews that such a thing would exist.

    7. Observer*

      Sounds like a win all around. I’m so glad it worked out – and not just for Rosh Hashana.

  127. Where to go from here?*

    So, I’m in a sort of tricky situation and I’m not sure what to do.

    Two months ago, I left Old Job, which I loved, because it was a part-time position that didn’t pay enough for me to support myself after college. I ended up at New Job, which is enjoyable and full-time. I make decent money here, and I’m pretty happy. It’s an organization with a lot of room for growth, too. Then last week, my old boss texted me. Apparently he’s moving into a different position, and everyone at Old Job wants me to fill his spot immediately. If I accept the offer, I’ll just have to go through a cursory interview (I verified this with grandboss), and they’ve promised me the job. It also pays almost $10k more than my current job.

    Pros of taking the job: more money, I get to go back to the organization I love, they really need and want me, I’m better at that job than I am at my current one. Cons: less room for career growth, no tuition reimbursement for further education, I prefer my coworkers at New Job, I’d feel really bad leaving New Job right after they’ve finished training me and everything.

    So my conundrum: stay at New Job, or take the position offered at Old Job? What would you do, AAM readers?

    1. Amber Rose*

      It sounds like you’d be happier with your current position. And if you leave this quickly, you’ll definitely burn a bridge with them.

      I probably wouldn’t go back unless I was desperate for cash.

    2. Biff*

      You left old job because it didn’t offer you opportunities. It now has one opportunity. But you admit this is probably the big change you can expect from them. So you’ll need to leave them again in a few years for the same reason you are leaving now.

      I think Newjob is a smarter choice.

    3. Batshua*

      Don’t burn the bridge. New Job sounds like a much better choice. You’ll learn things in New Job, and you like your New Coworkers. This sounds like a vast improvement in quality of life.

    4. Where to go from here?*

      Thank you to all of you that answered! You’re totally right, and I’m just waffling because I feel loyalty to Old Job, even though New Job is a better fit. You’ve helped me make my decision. Any advice on the best way to phrase my declination?

      1. Batshua*

        I would want to stress how … honored/flattered (neither of these is quite the right word) … that they thought of you (i.e. they recognize your skills/suitability and it was sweet [also not right word] of them to ask you), and that you wish them well filling the spot?

        I would give you a better outline, but I think I used up all my words for today.

  128. Emi.*

    Hot weather commuting question: one of the men who rides my bus now does so in just his undershirt (the ribbed tank kind, in case it matters). He holds his actual shirt and puts it on right before getting there. This strikes me as weird and kind of uncouth. Am I off-base, and if so, can women do this too? (I’m only kind of kidding.)

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      It is a bit odd, but I wouldn’t say it’s too out of the ordinary. I see women wearing tank tops or something on mass transit near me sometimes, and their messenger bag might have a longsleeved shirt peeking out, or something that they don’t want to sweat through also.

      It’s a bit unusual, and I’d wear a t-shirt instead of an undershirt myself. I think of it, if my customer saw me like this would that be really really bad? I roll up my sleeves and wear sneakers instead of dress shoes because I have a hike to my transit stop, so no, my customer wouldn’t really mind.

      I’d suspect if you wore something that wasn’t quite work appropriate, but if you were intending to put on a jacket or something once you got the office, it wouldn’t be A Thing.

      1. LizB*

        Yeah, I think part that makes it weird for me is that the undershirt is apparently not something the guy would normally wear by itself. I think if he were wearing an undershirt that could also be a standalone shirt (even if it wouldn’t be formal enough for work), that would be fine, and the same thing would be fine for women.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t think that’s weird at all. I used to layer a lot in the summer and wear only the bottom (read: flimsiest) layer during my commute. Avoids major sweat en route. I still do that now when it’s really hot, even though I’m driving and there’s a/c and no one can see my upper arms. As long as the undershirt is clean and tidy, it wouldn’t bother me. I say this as someone who once ranted in disbelief for 10 minutes about a woman wearing cropped pants, no socks and ballet flats on 0-degree day, so I notice these things.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I live in a VERY hot place and everyone does stuff like this, including me. Sweat is unprofessional and gross– so I’ll do anything I can to avoid it when I’m headed to work!

    5. HannahS*

      It’s funny, I have no problem with someone wearing an undershirt on the bus, or with someone changing into his shirt before work, but somehow the idea of SEEING someone getting dressed squicks me out a bit. I think it’s because, to me, getting dressed is so much a private activity.

  129. SophieChotek*

    How do you tell your boss something you don’t think they want to hear?

    As I’ve mentioned before, I work in PR for a company that produces luxury chocolate teapots. (Of course not really, but think of some product where you can buy the $5 version at Target or the handmade expensive version for $250+ at a high end boutique.)

    Our sales have not been good recently and our boss want to know why. In my heart, I really think it has 90% to do with people just don’t buy expensive things like this – they save it for trips, or pay off bills, etc. But to say that I would essentially be talking myself out of job. (Looking for a new one, but no success.)

    I have to respond to my boss with our improvement plan – and while I have no doubt I could be better at my job, I also am at a point where I think it would not matter if if I was amazing…

    1. Biff*

      Hmmmm…. some things to consider:

      — Does your marketing/branding justify the 250 dollar price tag? For example, Target’s version uses Hershey chocolate, and yours uses gold-infused, fair-trade, organic Belgian chocolate. Your artisans are recognized national treasures with a collective 250 years of experience. Might be time for you to justify premium prices to the consumer. It’s not enough to promise luxury — tell them why you really ARE luxury and why they deserve YOUR luxury.

      — Are you really that much more awesome compared to the 5 dollar version? Do you need to up your game to maintain a luxe edge? I’ve definitely talked to people who thing their product is all that, but it’s just not competitive the way they feel it is.

      — Is your packaging on note? It may be too minimal to promote the product, or too extensive (e.g. a Green product in layer of plastic and foam peanuts.)

      — Where is your client? Are you there?

      1. LQ*

        I cannot emphasize packaging enough. There is a produce I occasionally buy that is is a Luxury quality, but is absolutely not marketed as Luxury, they could double their prices easily based on what else the market seems to be able to bear if they upped the way they talk about it and so much their packaging. It is literally a slightly dirty plastic bag. If that’s your marketing (I love your product don’t change) then you need to do so much better. Make sure that packaging aims at the correct demographic. (Don’t call your product aimed at women something degrading to women, don’t call your product aimed at over 50’s an impossibly young term, etc)

        1. LQ*

          (Sorry, this is also what I’d say to my boss if I didn’t have to say it, if you have a Luxury product you can basically always say your marketing/packaging is out of date, it doesn’t have to be a plastic bag to be Not Good Enough for your market, it can be simply 2 months old.)

      2. Manders*

        Yes to really digging into your marketing strategy! How are you letting people know that luxury teapots are out there, and how are you convincing them that the markup is worth it? Also, can consumers buy luxury teapots directly from you, and if so, how are you getting customers to your online store and what’s going on with their user experience in the store?

        Is anyone in your company keeping track of the current state of the industry? Is demand for luxury teapots dropping off globally? Is the market for luxury teapots aging? Are Americans buying fewer luxury teapots while demand is shooting up in China?

        PR’s a great part of a marketing strategy but it’s not the *only* part you need these days unless you’re in a very unusual field.

      3. SophieChotek*

        Hi, thanks for your thoughts Biff, I appreciate them. Of course I might be too inured in my company’s self-centered our Product Is Great, but I think our branding (what we say about ourselves) does justify the price-tag (handmade, artisans crafted, blah blah), and ironically (since you mention it) – we do have good packaging.

        The issue seems to be getting enough high-end vendors to carry the product. (So the issue probably is the client…which does that go back to PR not selling it enough to them. Eh not sure.)

        Thank you. You are helping me clarify some thoughts.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          You might think that, but if people aren’t buying enough of it then you might be wrong. Sorry if that sounds a bit blunt. You might need to have a really critical look at your branding strategy.

          Also, look at how you interact with customers. Do you do much on social media, have a digital community, send email newsletters, run exclusive offers, etc?

    2. Finding My Out*

      I say respond with what the boss wants. It sounds like you think you’re going to be let go, so if it were me I would ride that train until you get thrown off it to buy yourself time to find something else if you can.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yeah that is sort of what I am doing right now…hoping I can find a job soon and then say good-bye to this one.

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      You might be talking yourself out of a job. But based on what your sales are like, are you really that sure of that job anyway?

      You need to prove to people that your product really is worth it, and go into that. Talk to your boss about that, and your concerns about people maybe not wanting to buy expensive things.

      If you really want to go above and beyond, go out and ask people and gather some data. “Would you be willing to pay $x for something if you knew ?” Don’t say you’re with your company if you can help it because that skews your statistics, but you do want that information and it’ll tell your company if your hunch is right or not. Firms do this for y’all too, and they’re really good at it.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I like your last idea – I doubt my boss would ever shell out the money for it though. My own general market research suggests there is a decline, not just for the brand but for the type of product. I follow our competitors on several social media sites and mostly it is just all of us tweeting and posting – no one seems to be commenting or retweeting or engaging much…whoever our customers are, they aren’t much on social media. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

        1. Working Rachel*

          I feel like people are kind of minimizing what you’re saying, but you sound like you have pretty good reasons to think that something is off, even if you can’t quite express what yet. If your boss is good, or if you have another coworker you could discuss this with, I would go to them with all the information you have and try to have a tough conversation about the product. Does the pricing need to change? Are there other products the company could roll out that have better prospects long-term? Does the company need to think “niche” rather than mass market? Do you need to use different channels to try to reach your ideal customer?

          I have also been in situations where I felt like our product was inevitably going to shrink, so I sympathize. Good luck!

        2. Anonymous Poster*

          You’re the expert, and definitely I wouldn’t want to discount your hunch. Maybe an intermediate step is to say, “Hey I think this is happening, and I’ve noticed these different things that give me this impression.” Really, what I’m getting at is way to prove you’re right, and you can do this market research yourself if you construct your study right. It’s easier said than done, though, and if you’re in an area with a decent MBA program you could even ask their marketing class to help you gather that market data and analyze their study. You do get what you pay for, but it will give you valuable information that should help you better understand if your decline is due to an overall drop in your market segment, or if something else may be going on.

          I’m leery of relying on general research data unless I have hard numbers (being an engineer), but it sounds like you also might already have some good data at your fingertips to help you back up your hunch. Maybe putting all of it together in a brief 15 minute presentation or something would help you in giving it to your boss in a way that’ll help you all get to the root of the problem.

          Unfortunately, again you might be talking yourself out of a job, but you’re building a more extensible skill of performing good market research and finding the root of the problem, which is really valuable in many, many different industries. Social media engagement has some value, but it isn’t as good an indicator as going and chatting with people that make up your target market. So, for example, maybe a fancy mall will let you conduct a survey, or a high value shop district where ownership is murky enough where you can stand on a street corner and convince people to fill out a 4 question survey or so, along with putting a number to how much extra they’d be willing to pay for your product over a Wal-mart wonder version.

          Really, best of luck. The university option can be a good (and free!) way to get the data you need, and they really love the chance for hands-on experience. You can guide them to do what you want, and they’re motivated by a grade usually.

    4. Stranger than fiction*

      Oh there’s plenty of people- a total market- out there who love luxury items. It comes down to selling the value: why is your product better, etc. and your marketing people also need to be sure they’re getting this message to the right audience. Is this just a seasonal slump?

    5. l*

      “Our sales have not been good recently and our boss want to know why. In my heart, I really think it has 90% to do with people just don’t buy expensive things like this – they save it for trips, or pay off bills, etc. But to say that I would essentially be talking myself out of job. (Looking for a new one, but no success.)”

      I’m not sure whether what you want to say is true.

      The problem of our times is the gap between the rich and the poor growing fast. At the same time the middle class is in decline. However, luxury goods will always be a market. Also because the very rich are currently getting even richer.

      I would work on a more elaborate explanation than this one.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks for reminding me of that. (I mean it is depressing the ever-widening gap) but I do think you are right, there are rich people who go for this sort of thing. And have money to burn apparently.

        1. Lindsay J*

          One thing I would look into is possibly targeting advertising better. You need the people with money to burn to see your product, and you don’t need to be paying for impressions from people who can’t afford it or won’t shell out a quarter of their paycheck for it when the cheap version works just fine.

          One of the things it makes me think of, honestly, are the advertisements in the in-flight magazines on planes. There’s always a bunch of niche stuff I see advertised in those that I don’t see most other places. A high end matchmaking service for people that are too busy for online dating. Expensive men’s dress-shirts that look better untucked. High end condos and hotels. Bose audio stuff. I’m guessing the thinking there is that these are things business-people with a lot of money would be interested in. They’re a captive audience (less so now that you can work on your laptop on the plane).

          Another thing I think of is the Hammacher Schlemmer catalogue. I’m not sure how they market themselves, but clearly they sell enough $1000 electric ride on coolers, $125,000 mini-monster trucks, and $400 personal oxygen bars to stay in business, so the people to buy your $250 artisan teapots are out there somewhere. You just need to find out how to find them.

    6. Observer*

      You may want to look at selling directly – not to undercut prices but to provide the kind of high touch service that people with money to burn like. Also, is it possible to place your product with concierge services? Not literally, but reach out to the people who shop for / speak to the 1% (or even top 10%)

  130. Asking for a friend*

    I;m not familiar with how Adjunct Professors work pay & schedule wise but was talking with a friend last night who is one. She is expected to have a syllabus & all lesson plans written prior to the first class but her contract doesn’t start until the first day of class. She teaches online, not in a classroom but is now expected to come in for a meeting of undetermined length (the university is an hour away in FL) two weeks prior to classes starting. All this with no pay.
    Is this common? How can this be right?

    1. Manders*

      Yep, that sounds normal. From what I understand, adjuncts fall into a weird legal zone because they’re teachers, which means they may be doing lesson plans and going to meetings before their contracts begin.

      Plus, there are so many people willing to take adjunct positions that even if something isn’t strictly legal, a lot of people won’t speak up because they don’t want to risk their future contracts.

    2. over educated*

      It’s extremely common. It’s not necessarily right. In theory, the rate per contact hour is supposed to be high enough to cover prep time and administrative meetings, but often that’s not the case and adjunct professors just wind up doing a lot of uncompensated or really underpaid work.

    3. VentiMcFly*

      Where I work, the contract period starts two weeks before classes, not the day of class, specifically to avoid having faculty work without being paid. That’s weird to me. We also wouldn’t have online only instructors drive from out of town to come to a mandatory meeting.

    4. LadyKelvin*

      It seems pretty normal to me. In my field adjunct professors are usually taught by the course/credit load, so if I was teaching a 3 credit class I might get 3K for the semester, and if it was a four credit class I might get 3.5K for the semester, and how much time it takes me to prep/grade/etc is just included in that flat rate. I’ve never seen an ad for an hourly adjunct by YMMV.

      1. over educated*

        I am married to one, he gets paid (very well) by the contact hour in a graduate professional program.

        1. LadyKelvin*

          I got paid much better teaching when I was in a grad program than when I was adjuncting post grad. But like I said, in my field you get paid by the credit hour/semester and not by the number of hours you work each day.

          1. Overeducated*

            Yeah, so did we, grad school was great in some ways – I miss the health insurance! I mean he is teaching in the grad program, not enrolled, and they use contact hours instead of the “credit” system because of how lab training is structured in this program. I have seen pay by “course” as just a lump sum in my own field, or by “classroom hours” where that was equal to “credit hours” (e.g. 3 credits = 3 hours/wk), so it may just vary a lot by school and program too.

    5. NoMoreMrFixit*

      That’s normal. I taught part time for a few years. Only got paid for actual in class teaching time. Prep time or marking was on my dime. That’s why people put themselves through the meat grinder that is the tenure track process.

    6. blackcat*

      100% normal for adjuncts. Prior to unionization at my institution, fall contracts started Sept 1, which means some adjuncts *had* to post syllabi online prior to their contract starting/getting paid. And if enrollment is too low, the class was cut and they are never paid for any prep work they might have done. In person meetings before being paid were common, too.

      Now adjuncts are union and that type of BS does not happen anymore (contracts start Aug 15th, and if classes are canceled, adjuncts have to get 2 week notice and are paid for their prep work). They are also paid a lot more now, too.

    7. deesse877*

      Totally normal, with the possible exception of the lesson plans part. Most academics in my experience prep class-to-class if it’s a completely new course assignment, and few adjuncts are policed to the extent of having lesson plans reviewed. Online teaching has, I suppose, more affordances for such surveillance, but if they’re that into control they’ll probably just roll out a common curriculum instead of expecting someone to design their own.

    8. Artemesia*

      Adjuncts are generally paid a flat fee per class; it is often ridiculously low, but it isn’t hourly, it is per class per semester. All that stuff like meetings and preparation are part of the gig. It is an entirely exploitive enterprise except perhaps in the case of someone who is fully employed and does the occasional class as an expert e.g. a business leader who teaches one class a year, probably timed evenings or late afternoons once a week or something. Adjuncting started out being a sort of occasional thing; now it is the way to hire teaching fodder and paying them almost nothing.

  131. Finding My Out*

    When you have an employee who is high performing but manipulative/gas-lighting and threatening to file HR complaints against you, I understand that being reactive to those behaviors is the worst thing you can do and that an extinction burst of behavior will probably happen. However, when you are prevented from firing the person because they are high performing, what are some strategies that you can do to keep from feeling like YOU are the crazy person in the situation, until you can get out of it?

      1. Finding My Out*

        Not really an option in this instance–really toxic environment where that would do me more harm than good.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      Document! That behavior makes that person untrustworthy, and I suspect you’re documenting whatever you can anyway. Also talk with HR and express your concerns, and provide examples. You’ll be heading off that avenue wherever possible.

      But definitely document. Conversations can be like, “As we talked about during our meeting, we agreed to do X, Y, and Z as our further courses of action…” so that you have written proof too. I suspect they’ll start quibbling about it, but you’ll then have the documentation about it.

    3. alienladycreature*

      Slightly rambly / apologies. Hoping to get your perspectives on this.
      My teammate is getting face-time with the boss and I’m not – even through we both work on the same thing, just different aspects of it (she’s more strategy and I’m more execution / creative). I’ve mentioned once to the boss and several times to my teammate that this meeting should be happening with the three of us present, and they both agree, but nothing’s changed.

      I don’t think it’s productive to cut me out of these kinds of discussions but then relay them to me secondhand anyway because I did need to know after all. But honestly, I’m also getting worried I’m seen as being at the bottom of the team’s food chain, doing the least important work that’s not even worth a weekly meeting with the boss. I feel left out and that bring a lot of negative feelings into my work life. I’ve been noticing that people are going to my teammate and skipping over me in discussions that I should be involved in – they seem to get the cue from the boss that my teammate is the one who calls the shots. How can I tell my boss about it without sounding like a high-schooler?

    4. Observer*

      Document every time this person interferes with the work of your department, whether directly or by what they do to a co-worker, etc. Show that they are not as high performing as they look, because of this.

      It’s like showing that the “hero” who keeps putting out fires is the arsonist who sets them, to look good.

    5. Just a thought*

      If it’s a large company, try to get them transferred to a different department or team if possible. Less interaction with them could be beneficial to you and them and if they are a top performer, the company doesn’t lose out.

  132. over educated*

    So the super niche specialist job I applied for over Memorial Day weekend to two months of radio silence? They contacted me for a phone interview! That happened Tuesday, and since I’m not local, I have a Skype interview next week. EEEK! Wish me luck! This is the kind of gig that only comes around once every several years, and that I’ve been working toward for the last DECADE. I’m really really really excited about the possibility, but also really nervous about any or all of the following:

    1) I may not have as much practical experience managing projects as they’re looking for (I’ve worked on a lot of smaller scale projects that are qualitatively different from theirs due to size and budget)

    2) I’m not local (which adds logistics like travel for interviews and needing more than 2 weeks notice before start date to pack, sublet my apartment, find a new place, and find childcare)

    3) What if despite all of those issues, they offer me the job, and then it doesn’t pay enough to live on or doesn’t offer family health insurance? (That actually happened when I was offered a job at another org with a similar title last year. The numbers just didn’t work. My spouse is willing to relocate but I’d be the primary wage earner, so I can’t afford to work for passion.)

    Please please please please cross your fingers for me and wish me luck in the next interview. I think this would be a significantly better fit than my current role, and i’ll basically be

    4. Kately*

      Good luck! If it helps, I can address your concerns:

      1. That’s on them to decide; you can’t suddenly acquire large project experience between now and the interview. What helps is that everyone in this area was once in your spot, and had to make the jump from smaller to larger. Here’s your shot to tell them how you are capable of tackling new challenges, because that is extremely valuable.

      2. Split this item apart; think about how to manage travelling for interviews for now. Set the moving worries aside until you get an offer. You’ll figure it out then, because you have to!

      3. Interview first! Then you can think about this. I know, it’s the hardest thing. I’m currently waiting-trying-not-to-wait for an interview call. IT IS THE HARDEST. You have my empathy. But you literally cannot answer these questions until you know what the salary offer is.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks for the response! You’re right about #1, they’ve seen my resume and I’ll just have to be honest but prepared. I do think think that is a concern the hiring manager has, as I haven’t had the exact job before so it would really be a step up, and I hope I can convince them it’s worth taking a chance on me.

        You’re right that I can’t get too far ahead of myself on the other stuff too. Honestly I’d be willing to take leave and pay my own interview travel if they’re really serious about me (though if I’m choice #3 I’d rather save my vacation…). I am just a bit nerve wracked because I’ve been unable to take two offers for this title over two years, one due to family issues and timing and one to money, and I feel like you only get so many bites at that apple – only one at this specific organization.

        1. Kately*

          I feel you. I have been job searching steadily although not intensely since 2012. Right now I may be in the running for a rare unicorn of a job that is steady, great benefits, and a minimum 30% raise over my current job. I am petrified I’ll mess it up because this is the first time I’ve even had a phone screen, let alone an interview, in five years. Also I’m doing the exact same thing you are – trying to feel out all the eventualities beforehand and solve them. It’s a terrible toll on the nerves! Let’s just do one step at a time and give ourselves a break, I say.

  133. Beatrice*

    I’ve been working on process design for a huge organizational change project for over a year, and just found out last week that the ten advanced analyst positions I planned for, that I was told would be forthcoming, will not be posted after all. Those process roles will be filled by lower-skilled, faster-turning customer support employees instead, and I’m expected to train them to perform tasks that were designed for a much different skill level. I don’t know how I’m going to make this work. We made so many decisions assuming that the caliber of people who be performing the work would be at a certain level, and that level is just not possible to meet with the people were ultimately going to end up getting. I am trying to adjust my plans, but we’re really close to our launch date now, and it’s too late to be doing this kind of process redesign, and I have a sinking feeling that this is all going to go up in flames.

    The hardest part is, I don’t even know what happened. I am a senior analyst myself, not a manager, and my superiors are missing in action and won’t shed any light on the reason for the change. I haven’t seen my director for more than five minutes at a time in the last month. I can read between the lines, and I have what I think is a pretty good theory, but I’m being left to fend for myself and defend the changes I need in meetings with other process stakeholders, and I don’t have any definitive answers for them on why the change happened. This sucks so hard.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, jeez, this just made my blood run cold; I’ve had this happen with single jobs and it’s a nightmare, so I can’t imagine having it with ten–ten!–positions. I’m so sorry.

      1. Beatrice*

        Yeah, my heart is breaking into tiny little pieces. We’re also trying to fill part of the gap with “we’re just not going to do XYZ,” but I know that not doing XYZ is not possible and won’t actually stand – I think it’s just a political game my director is playing to justify getting a few of the analyst roles posted eventually. It’s hard to defend (and plan to enact!) that decision when it’s ultimately indefensible.

        This project has been a huge stretch for me, and I’m annoyed that I’ve been “trusted” to do all this work (with little direction or input) at my level, and suddenly I’m not high enough level to get a straight answer about what’s going on, but I’m still expected to handle conversations solo with stakeholders about how we need to flex to make it work.

    2. Mazzy*

      This is bad. I mean, sometimes no people are better than ones with different skill set. Part of my work overlaps with CSRs and as much as I’d like to recruit one to do more analytical work, the skill sets have always been just so different. It’s not just a training them to do tasks thing, it’s that they regularly miss non-routine errors and opportunities and have too rigid of a view about what is their job vs. isn’t, what they are allowed or should be allowed to do vs. what they aren’t, etc.

  134. Biff*

    This is a hypothetical, something that almost happened — what is your recourse if you move to a new location at your expense and the job falls through before the first day, but after they gave you the okay to move?

    1. fposte*

      In theory, you might be able to sue the prospective employer under promissory estoppel; in reality, that’s not likely to solve much or in any decent time frame.

  135. Valkyrie*

    Hey! My husband has a phone interview today for a VP position–this would be a considerable step-up for him (us!). It would involve relocation, but to a state we’ve lived in before and are comfortable with. Any tips I can send his way so he makes it to the in-person phase?

    Thanks in advance!

      1. Valkyrie*

        The first thing he did when they scheduled the meeting was ask me if AAM had any posts about it, I was like “uh, duh!” and sent him the interview guide link. Luckily, he’s doing all the stuff in there already! I’m just hoping to make this move!

  136. VentiMcFly*

    My co-workers regularly walk into my office without announcing themselves or knocking. This is annoying at any time, but it often happens while I’m on the phone (for business reasons). They’ll just walk in and start talking, or they’ll stand behind me and start talking. I guess none of them can see that I’m on the phone (my back is to the door – my office is small and my desk is huge and can’t be turned). Some of them look mortified and go away – but then keep doing it over and over again. Others whisper, “I only have a quick question!” as if I’m going to put my phone call on hold and talk to them. And others will just stand there in my office or sit down and wait, and I have to literally excuse myself from the phone call, put a hand over the receiver, and not-so-gently tell them, “I’m on the phone. Please leave.” And then shut my door behind them.

    If I proactively shut my door, they will knock and knock and knock and knock, or stand outside my door and loudly talk to anyone who passes, or run around and try to find out where I am. If I proactively put something on my guest chair so that people can’t sit, they’ll move my things to the floor.

    So. Frustrating.

    1. Beancounter Eric*

      You have very rude co-workers.

      Wish I had some ideas because I have the same problem.

    3. Simone R*

      Have you told them explicitly that this is a pattern and to stop? “Hey Fergus, you often sit in my office while I’m on the phone. Please don’t do that, just come back later!” Maybe you could also suggest that they send you an email during those times if you think that would help.

    4. Xarcady*

      What do all these people want? If what they need is just a quick answer to a question, can you train them to email or IM you instead of walking to your office?

      That way, you can answer them when you are free. Oh, and you’ll also probably have to train them to wait for an answer. A former co-worker was famous for emailing someone, then immediately walking down the hall to their office and asking, “Did you get my email?”

      And if this is a constant thing, the question-asking, look at what you are being asked. Can you create a trouble-shooting document with the most frequent questions and their answers? Can you send some of the questions to another person? Can you train someone else in the department to handle 50% or more of the questions and require everyone to see her first, and only come to you when that other person tells them to?

      Or just start locking the door.

      1. Beancounter Eric*

        You are assuming they want to be “trained”.

        And my experience with locking the door is a) they go complain to the boss, b) they stand and pound on the door until you open it, or c) they change direction and chat loud enough the door might as well not be there at all.

        1. Jack*

          Of course they don’t want to be trained, but you still have to do it.

          Have you actually tried addressing this directly with the offenders? And if that hasn’t worked, going to their boss?

    5. Free Meerkats (formerly Gene)*

      “Excuse me, I need to put you on hold for a second.”

      Press hold button.

      “Fergus, get the fuck out of my office until I’m off the phone, and don’t do that again.”

      Reconnect call.

      “Now, about the left-handed veeblefetzers, how many do you need, and what colors?”

      PRN

  137. Eliza*

    A few months ago, I was promoted to manager and was hiring my replacement for assistant manager. The position was listed for both internal and external applicants. A staff member from one of our organization’s other branches applied. She was a strong candidate, but I had some concerns about her attitude and emotional maturity due to interactions I had with her in the past (as well as information I had received from her references), and went with an external candidate with similar qualifications and stronger references. I sent what I felt to be a personal rejection email to the internal candidate (for reasons that Allison mentions in this post: https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/articles/2017-07-24/everything-you-want-to-know-about-job-rejections I felt that it was better to give her some time to read the message instead of bombarding her in person or by phone, especially with the emotional maturity concerns I had). I mentioned in the email that I was available to meet or speak by phone if she wanted to talk more about things.

    After all this, she has not talked to me at all, except when she has to. In the handful of meetings we have had together she has stared daggers across the table at me. She has treated my new assistant manager very coldly. I learned this week that she has turned in her notice and will be leaving in a few weeks (this is not a surprise to me, her manager, or the head of the company). I feel bad that we never talked further about the job. I am wondering if I should try to approach her before she leaves or if that will come across as being either defensive or rubbing salt in the wound. I’m not even sure if I should send her a generic good luck or we’ll miss you message. So should I keep my mouth shut or try to reach out before she leaves?

    P.S. This is not the first internal candidate I have rejected for a job (its not even the only one for the assistant manager position). I have never had someone react in quite this way, so I’m kind of lost on how to proceed.

    1. CAA*

      I would not say anything to her. It sounds like you were polite and professional and approachable and you should continue to be available if she decides she wants to talk. Her feelings are her own responsibility to sort out, and if she’s unable to overcome the disappointment at not getting a promotion, then it’s probably best if she moves on to some place where she can get what she needs from her work.

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Do not engage. She’s sent you signals. Leave her alone. Sign the going away card if it comes around and leave it at that.

    3. AMPG*

      Think of it this way – she’s validated your decision to go with the other candidate. Leave it alone and don’t feel bad. You seem to have done everything right.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Yep I agree. She validated those questions you had about maturity, etc., just as AMPG said. It is probably just as well she is leaving, especially if others in the company brought up issues.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Gee, why were you worried about her maturity?

      Yeah, sign the card and let the whole thing go. It’s not your fault that she can’t handle not getting the job. Honestly, I think I would mostly be relieved to see her go.

      1. Eliza*

        Thanks everyone for your replies! I was leaning this way but just wanted to make sure there wasn’t something else I should be doing. Yeah I definitely feel like I dodged a bullet there and am glad to not have to continue working with someone like this.

  138. Airedale*

    How to indicate that you’re done small-talking?

    I do the thing where I kind of smile apologetically, glance at my computer, stop responding mostly. But some coworkers don’t take the hint.

    Do I really have to say, “Well, gotta get back to work!” or “Oops, I have to take care of this email!”

    Just curious how others handle this.

    1. Rincat*

      For those that don’t get the hint, I do have to say, “Okay, gotta get back to work!” If they really don’t get it, I’ll go to the bathroom, and usually they don’t follow me.

      I did have one coworker who, if I said “gotta get back to work,” he’d launch into a lecture about how I worked too hard, and life isn’t about slaving away at your job, and if I moved to leave, he’d say something like “Oh you’re not leaving!” and keep lecturing me. He was a real peach.

    2. Beancounter Eric*

      My best approach is to not engage in small-talk at all. If a co-worker initiates, I give them a minute or so, and then simply say “Excuse me, but I have work to do.”

      And no, I’m not a people person.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeeeeah, I would avoid that, because it implies that the people you’re chatting with don’t have work to do, when chances are they’re either taking a break or procrastinating. “Excuse me, I need to get back to that project I’m working on,” is much softer.

        1. Kim Possible*

          I would avoid that, as well. Sounds like a good way to make your coworkers not like you. Of course it’s fine to say you need to get back to work, but there’s a kinder way to say it.

        2. Beancounter Eric*

          Let them procrastinate in someone elses office, I don’t want to hear about their weekend, their kids, their significant other, their dog..I don’t want to hear about their car being broken into again, their car breaking down, the bus being late, how their ex was mean toward them – if it’s not directly work related, I do not want to hear about it. Their lives are not my problem, and I really don’t give a rodent’s backside about any of it. I don’t share my life with them; frankly, I’d rather they not intrude in my life away from work.

          And “softer” doesn’t get the message across – “If it’s not work-related, leave me the “bleep” alone!!!”

          I will be reasonable friendly, but I am not their friend – they are coworkers, period. Learned the hard way some time ago that friendship and the workplace are incompatable.

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            You know that’s warped thinking from a toxic workplace, right? You can be friendly without becoming BFFs.

    3. ZVA*

      If they’re not getting the hint, then yes—you probably do have to say something! I usually go with something like “Better get back to it” in a light tone or with a smile. Some people just won’t pick up on your cues otherwise…

    4. fposte*

      I hardly ever waste time on hints these days–why not say what I need up front and cut it short? “Been fun, I gotta get back to work now.”

    5. Airedale*

      Thank you all! I’ll try to feel less guilty about shutting my chatty coworkers down :)

    6. Kately*

      “Don’t let me keep you!” said reasonably warmly or brightly. Works well when you run into someone in the grocery store too, for example.

  139. KMC*

    Any good scripts/responses for turning down taking a personality test in a work environment? It’s not my direct boss, but another supervisor in the office, & is being framed as “oh, wouldn’t this be fun to know? We’re all guessing what we’ll get & then taking it.”

    I have zero interest in this, & it’s possible if I don’t answer the email, they will forget. But any suggestions otherwise?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      Scientific studies have disproven stuff like that so many times over. You could provide info about why personality tests aren’t factually accurate and say something like “I’m opting out because of X Y and Z. Thanks!”

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      For a first pass, I’d just say “Eh, it’s not really my thing. Hope it’s useful to you!” (i.e., treat this like the no-big-deal that it is).

    3. curmudgeon*

      I despise these things, 7/10s of my office think these are wonderful.
      If I don’t do them, I’m labelled a poor sport, not being part of the team, etc., and then have to sit through the staff meetings & retreats where they talk about these things endlessly. In the past to interviews for new staffers, someone from the group asked about their MB score and if they had tried X or Y or whatever “test” they loved. One staffer had her interns all take 2 different personality tests.
      I’ve voiced concerns about ow people are using them, that no-one in the staff has actually trained in scoring them, a friend used to score them as part of her job (she was trained).

      So I do them, I’m grumpy about it, point out the differences between home persona/work persona/friend persona and how the answers can vary even within the same day taking it 2-3 times.

      Opt out (ignore the request) as long as possible, and then amuse yourself while taking the test, giving whatever answer you want to give, not necessarily the one htat “fits your profile”.

  140. paul*

    Question, kind of messy.

    We’re moving next year for my wife’s work and education. Which is good, because work has taken a sharp downtown.

    Since our manager has come onboard ~2.5 years ago they’ve been telling everyone they’re doing a great job, WPR’s have been good, etc.

    Until last month. They stormed in, announced the entire group was being put on a PiP, we had to change how we’re doing everything, etc.

    Then radio silence on all that for a few weeks.

    Now people are in one on one’s, and I *think* they’re formally starting the PiPs, but don’t know. I’ll find out next week because that’s when mine one on one is.

    Reasonable to push back and involve HR in a grievance process? I feel like having 2.5 years of “Y’all are great” jump right to PiPs for everyone with the possibility of termination is frankly insane. I also think some of the new preferences/policies in how we interact with clients are absurd on their face, although I’m not doing direct client work anymore.

    1. paul*

      To be clear; I don’t plan on asking this manager for a reference. They’ve been OK to work for before, but they’re very mercurial in temper and mood so I wouldn’t feel safe–god knows what they’d say if they were crabby and had a potential employer call them for a reference check.

    2. AMPG*

      Two places to start:
      1. What’s your company’s policy on dealing with performance issues? There’s often a verbal warning-written warning-PIP sequence that has to happen unless there’s been some egregious behavior (in which case you wouldn’t have waited weeks for a PIP). Familiarize yourself with this and go in armed.
      2. Are there actual policies that your team hasn’t been following, even at the direction or with the blessing of your manager? It sounds a lot like this manager got called out for something and is passing it on to you and your coworkers. I would plan to go in and listen before speaking, but if you can do a bit of research beforehand, it can save you from being blindsided.

      1. paul*

        No, these are new and frankly pretty weird policies from what little I’ve seen. She’s getting really picky about the verbal encouragers we use interacting with clients (things like OK and mmhmm), stuff like that. It doesn’t violate any laws or any of our contracts or anything, but it’s just flagrantly bizarre.

        Also, she doesn’t want us to start going over stuff like income, residency status, etc until we’ve been working with them a while…but we can’t start really getting them signed up/enrolled in any sort of programs until we have that so WTF? Like, if we’re gonna see about trying to help you get on SNAPS or HUD or whatever, we kind of need that information to get started.

  141. Stranger than fiction*

    So I think my bf overreacted during a recruiter call the other day, and got himself blackballed possibly with this recruiting agency, and was wondering what people’s take is in this:
    She called him up about an opportunity, but turns out she had overestimated his experience with X and this role required 2 yrs of X minimum where he has 15 mos. So then of course she turned the conversation to how she may have other opportunities and asked what his salary goal was. That pissed him off. And he basically told her he wouldn’t get into that without even knowing what the role was, which is fine, but after a long stressful week, he was pretty snarky to the lady about it.
    Do you think this question is ridiculous to ask someone without knowing what opportunity weeks even talking about?

    1. Emi.*

      I don’t think it’s ridiculous for a recruiter to ask about a rough range or minimum, so that she knows not to bother him with anything too low to interest him, as long as she realizes he might want more than that for certain positions.

    2. AMPG*

      This was a cold call, right? He really can respond however he wants, since there’s no relationship to maintain at that point. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask about a ballpark figure so that she doesn’t present him with something he’d never consider.

    3. CAA*

      Well, is he actively looking or passive? If it was a cold call and he’s not even on the market and doesn’t want to be called again, then yes, it’s obnoxious to ask a stranger about salary.

      On the other hand, if he applied for the position or deliberately sent in a resume to this agency that’s trying to help him get a job making as much as he thinks he’s worth, it’s kind of silly not to tell them what that number is.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        He’s currently employed and somewhat actively looking but yes, it was a cold call and he has not applied for anything through them. And I get why she asked for a range. The problem is, with what he does, he’s qualified for a anything from a Sr individual contributor role to a Director role. And with what he does, you can get everything from a straight salary, to salary plus bonus, to salry plus bonus plus percent of sales.
        But yeah I think he just lost his patience which isn’t great. And was worried if he said $X, then theyd present a director level role, change the title and tweak the description , and then lowball him.

    4. Murphy*

      I think it’s a reasonable question. You wouldn’t necessarily have a hard number without knowing more, but you may be able to say something like “I wouldn’t be able to consider anything below $X” so they don’t waste your time.

    5. Mazzy*

      I don’t see much of an issue, a tiny one, but nothing much. I remember especially in the 2007 – 2010 time frame lots of recruiters getting really nosy with questions like this, and none every went anywhere. So they can’t expects someone to be billing to go through this when it likely isn’t going anywhere.

    6. msroboto*

      First most recruiters that I have spoken to do not last. In a few months someone else from that organization will most likely call again. So I wouldn’t worry about it.

      I will generally speak to a recruiter but I have 30 years experience and I give them my salary requirement and that’s generally enough that I won’t hear from them until the next recruiter has the files.
      Oh plus I am SUPER picky about location too. And most of these are will I work in Boston … nope. How about Portsmouth … nope.

      There is one recruiter that calls all the time and even after all this they are like ooh I have a company near you. I spoke to them a couple years ago so nope.

      That’s pretty much the end of it at that point.

  142. GrillMaster*

    Just a friendly reminder that when you are brand new to a position, there is often value in taking time to listen in meetings. There is also value in assuming that your new coworkers know how to do their jobs, unless you have strong evidence to the contrary.

    Let’s say that I’m a GrillMaster. I oversee teams that grill many types of foods for clients, and handle some high-level grilling projects myself. We recently had a meeting that included all staff with a stake in grilling, which included Grillers at various levels of experience. I swear that I am not exaggerating how this conversation went (although it was obviously not really about hot dogs).

    Director: Thanks to GrillMaster and her team, Project Hot Dog was a huge success. Project Hot Dog was concluded yesterday and I want to thank the team for their feedback.
    Junior Griller who has worked here for two weeks: When grilling hot dogs, it’s really important to use heat to cook them, because people don’t like uncooked hot dogs.
    Director: Yes.
    Junior Griller: The heat is also important because people could get sick if the hot dogs aren’t fully cooked. Are you planning to use heat to cook the hot dogs?
    Me: We used heat to cook the hot dogs. The hot dogs have already been cooked and eaten. The project wrapped up yesterday.
    Junior Griller: I just think it’s essential that you use heat to cook the hot dogs.
    Me: Right, which is why we did use heat. My team has years of experience cooking hot dogs, and they know how to cook them
    Junior Griller: A lot of people don’t realize that you should use heat to cook the hot dogs, but it’s so important. People could get really sick if you don’t cook them.
    Me: I’m not sure why we’re talking about this. The hot dogs were cooked, with heat, by experienced grillers. Project Hot Dog has wrapped. The hot dogs were cooked and eaten already. Can we move on?

    It took a lot of restraint to not ask the Senior Griller she reports to to get this employee in line.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Ha! I think I know your Junior Griller.

      Another example:

      Director: (Sends an email to everyone on the grilling team, including Junior Griller, detailing how to grill hot dogs.)

      Junior Griller: (Forwards the email to everyone on the grilling team.) This is some really important information; you should all read it.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          Ahahahaha. Yes. I know of one who tried to tell the editor of a big-name magazine how to choose pictures for their cover.

    4. Kately*

      I propose Junior Griller be assigned to a high-profile, time-consuming project: determining once and for all whether hot dogs are sandwiches. Then your meetings can continue in peace. Or, relative peace.

  143. AMPG*

    I finally have a good one for the open thread!

    I work for a mid-size non-profit, reporting directly to the CEO as director of a department of two. I’ve been asked to bring another small department under my reporting structure because it needs more hands-on management than the CEO has time to give (in general, we’re pretty thin on high-level management, due to being mostly grant funded, since funders never want to pay for “overhead”). It’s widely accepted that the head of this other department isn’t going to appreciate more hands-on management, nor will he like being managed by a woman. I had my first meeting with him and his team today and I can already see it’s going to be a bit of a struggle. I asked him for a meeting and he invited me to one that was already scheduled for his team, but seems to have told me the wrong time, since when I arrived they were already partway through their agenda. And when I said I’d like to start having regular meetings he offered a monthly check-in, which was definitely an attempt to push back.

    Ultimately I feel confident that I can handle this, but I’d love to hear any tips for starting off on the right foot. Thanks!

    1. amysee*

      How much has the CEO communicated to this other manager about expectations? That seems key here.

      In the ideal world of my imagination I would want to see 1) a meeting with CEO and other manager where CEO lays out the what and why of the new structure, and 2) a meeting with you, CEO and other manager where you lead the discussion about how things are going to work, with CEO reinforcing.

      Based on his resistance to being managed by a woman and his apparent attempts to sabotage a plan put in place by the CEO, I want him fired. But I could just be in a bad mood. :)

      1. AMPG*

        The CEO doesn’t love confrontation, and is definitely looking to me to tighten the reins on this department, but we both suspect that a formal sit-down would cause the director to get even more defensive. I was very clear in today’s meeting that I had been asked to manage more actively.

        Firing this guy is definitely a possible outcome of this change, but I’d be happy to avoid that if I can, so I want to go into this in a non-adversarial way for as long as is warranted.

  144. Victoria the Q*

    I have a general question to throw out, not necessarily something to fix or change, I just wanted opinions. There’s a manager at my work who frequently adopts what might be called a ‘lounging’ posture. He kicks his feet up by his keyboard and angles himself so he’s almost a full body length from his computer and reclining in his chair. As he keeps his door open and there are large windows, customers and employees can see when he’s reclining like that. Does that seem unprofessional? Or is it something that, as a manager, he can just do? I work in a different department so I don’t really see how much of his time he spends like that, but I know there’s some low-level resentment among other employees about that manager and the other manager at that level. What do you guys think?

    1. self employed*

      It’s a pretty unprofessional way to sit (lounge?) at work. I guess his boss can address it, but I might say, “Do you mind sitting up?” if I were to go in for a meeting.

      1. Victoria the Q*

        Well, he does sit up when others come in, at least. I also can’t really say anything because he and his brother are the owners (or at least top dogs, because their father owns the business itself, but the father is retired).

    2. curmudgeon*

      Meh, in my office, one of the directors sits leaned back staring at the wall, often wearing pink glasses, and with hands pulling through their hair /draping it around, while “thinking”. First time I saw it, thought staffer was having some sort of seizure lockup.

      If i’m free-writing, I often kick back, feet on the desk, keyboard in my lap … but I don’t do this at work often unless I’m alone.

  145. VermiciousKnit*

    A friend of mine (actually a friend, not me this time!) has FMLA to cover absences related to some kind of fairly serious illness she’s been struggling with and struggling to diagnose for several months. Recently, her case was referred to a different physician to be her primary provider, and her office is saying that she now needs to recertify her FMLA because she switched doctors. Is that allowed under FMLA guidance?

    1. CAA*

      She should read the section on recertification at http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs28g.pdf. But generally, an employer can require recertification every 30 days unless there’s a longer minimum expected period for recovery specified in the original request; or whenever circumstances have changed significantly.

      It may be that getting a new physician qualifies as a significant change in circumstance — I don’t know about that. But in any case, it sounds like this was a request with no specified end date and it’s been more than 30 days, so yes, the employer can ask for recertification.

  146. jobby job anony*

    Just putting whinge in print (pixel?), I think–

    I am job searching, because It’s Time, and because things at my current gig have gotten several kinds of nutty. I haven’t been searching that long and haven’t applied for tons of stuff yet so my rational brain understands that these things take time, I will start to get interviews eventually, etc….

    But irrational me is checking my junk mail every 15 minutes just in case I missed an interview invite and refreshing job sites like a madwoman even when they note they’ve posted everything they intend to for the day, because, who knows?

    That said I really appreciated all the niche job sites folks shared in that thread a way back– Tom Manatos, Brad Traverse and the DC public affairs jobs blogspot have been good to me. So thanks to all who contributed!

  147. k.k*

    Quick maybe silly question..just got a voicemail asking to schedule an interview! But it’s Friday afternoon and I’m at work unable to sneak a call back until 5. Do I call after 5, or wait until the next business day? Monday seems so far off.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Call after 5:00. You might have to leave a message, but they’ll know you called.

    2. CAA*

      Call as soon after 5:00 as you can manage and leave a message if you don’t get anyone. Include info about how to reach you on Monday or at least what time that you’ll be able to call them back on Monday.

    3. Bolt*

      Call after 5:00. Like others said, you can leave a voicemail to let them know you called and how/when to reach you or that you’ll call back Monday at x time.

      There is also the chance that this person will be there after 5:00!!!

  148. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

    I’m debating on whether I should take the SHRM-CP exam or the PHR. My degree is in education & am 2 years into an HR career change, so I feel like this may give me a bit more credibility as a candidate. I’d prefer to do the SHRM exam because it seems like the questions are much more situational, as opposed to memorizing court cases & such, so I feel like it would be more relevant for my experience. But I also don’t want to pay for an exam that isn’t really looked on as valuable in the HR community.

    Anyone have thoughts either way?

    1. Hedgehog*

      I can’t offer advice, but I’d love to hear more about how you made the leap! I’m thinking about trying to transition to an HR role and struggling with how best to do so.

      1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I actually got the position through networking. My husband’s boss owns a couple of companies, and he had one in need of an HR manager and was willing to give me a shot. It’s definitely not a place I want to stay long term, which is why I’m looking at an additional certification. Hopefully that plus a few years of experience will help me move into something better.

  149. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    For those of you who work from home: how do you maintain work/life balance? My company has pretty great vacation and really encourages people to not work weekends, etc. but I find myself doing things like checking emails and whatnot. I know that I need to be able to disconnect and recharge. What are your best tips to keep me from checking my work email this weekend (and every weekend!)

    1. Biff*

      Do you have a dedicated work spot for your work computer, or is it in your general living space? You may need to practice good work hygiene the way some insomniacs practice sleep hygiene.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Take your email off your phone, if it’s on there. Don’t check your email on the computer on the weekends or after hours. It takes some mental work, but it can be done!

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        I don’t have work email on my phone per se… but they have a webmail and I catch myself checking it on my phone’s browser. I think my problem is willpower and curiosity. I’m going to try extra hard this weekend to not open it on the browser.

    3. The IT Manager*

      I suggest you make it hard to check your emails. Don’t set up your work email on your personal phone. Shut down the computer with your work email at the end of the day and close the door to your office so you aren’t even tempted.

    4. Beancounter Eric*

      As other’s have said, take work email account off your phone. If you have a dedicated computer for work, turn it off at close of business Friday, and leave it off until Monday morning. If that is a problem, I’d almost say take the power cord and give it to a trusted friend to hold over the weekend.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Whenever I worked from home with Exjob, I set my hours with a definite start and end time. Yes, I was hourly and couldn’t work overtime without approval anyway, but it really helped me stay focused because between X time and Y time, I was for all intents and purposes “at work.”

      Having a space set aside helps too. You can walk away from it when you’re done and that kind of resets your brain. This spot is for work, this spot is for TV watching, etc.; don’t watch TV when you’re in your work spot and vice versa.

    6. SophieChotek*

      I work from home and have pretty set hours that I work. I often am away (out and about) during the weekends so usually do not have the issue with checking my email over the weekend. (If anything, I probably have more issues with reading AAM or my personal email when I am at work.) Overall, my coworkers tend to not to email over the weekend either (because the office is closed, though they could access their email) so it’s not too difficult. It’s probably more challenging not to go wash a load of clothes or something when I am at work, but I just have to be disciplines or clock-in-out when I do things like that (just mentally). Overall, though, a really regimented set schedule helps me the most in most facets of my life — not for everyone, but tends to keep me focused and get things accomplished.

  150. Me - Blargh!*

    The company with the food item product where I had an admin interview in May posted another job for a document control coordinator in their QC department. I applied and had a phone screen yesterday. It pays $3 less an hour to start than the job I left, but I told the screener I was willing to talk. I hope they get back to me.

    I have not heard from the ad agency about the proofreader job. She said last week that it would be next week (read: this week) when they made a decision. But since it took ages for me to hear anything from them in the first place, I’m not going to worry about it. If I don’t hear by Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, then I will follow up. If I don’t get it, it’s probably because I wanted more money. Fine; whatevs.

    I also applied to a job in KC; I don’t really want to move there, and the job is slightly above my skill set (but nothing I can’t learn), so I doubt I will hear from them. It would get me out of here, at least, and into a major metro area. But I am so desperate to get out of this state–the NAACP travel advisory is just about the last damn straw. I am so sick of this backward hellhole I can’t stand to even breathe (and I can’t anyway–hello summer grass allergy!). I’ve given up on California for the moment–until I can save more money or win the PowerBall, I can’t afford to move yet even if I do get a job there.

    In the meantime, I’ve started the sequel to the ghost book. I have six queries out, including one to someone a writer I know from Twitter recommended, so wish me luck on that front. Should I get a bite, I want to have that underway, especially since I’ve been mentioning that it could be a stand-alone OR Book 1 of a trilogy, because I HAD AN IDEA. I got all enthusiastic about doing a tiny NaNoWriMo but then realized I need an outline. No pantsing this time. Balls! Oh well. For some dumb reason, I work better when I’m busy with other things than when I’ve got hours and hours to write. I have a little time to finish my latest edit and get started on Book 2. After this, I am moving on to the next thing.

    Two people liked the sci-fi story I posted on my blog, too. :)

    1. over educated*

      Fingers crossed for you! And maybe I’ll check out your sci fi story after work :)

  151. The IT Manager*

    I suggest you make it hard to check your emails. Don’t set up your work email on your personal phone. Shut down the computer with your work email at the end of the day and close the door to your office so you aren’t even tempted.

  152. Princess Carolyn*

    Don’t really need advice on this one, just curious about everyone’s thoughts. I read a lot of articles about employee engagement and company culture, and several of the companies I’ve worked for don’t follow any of the best practices experts recommend. Do you think companies with bad (but not truly toxic) policies/cultures can ever change and become better places to work? Would you ever take a position that was mean to be a change agent in a company like that?

  153. Overit*

    Any advice on reaching out to my former boss that offered me a job? My Director left a week ago, the last day she mentioned to me if I needed a job, to let her know. Things have got really toxic around here, which is why she left, but I still feel so awkward about bringing it up. I am not sure if she was even serious or not, also, will it look bad on me for leaving with her? Tips?

    1. Neosmom*

      Just a reminder that “Current Employer” is your customer. If you do not wish to perform services for your customer any more, you have every right to end that business arrangement. Wishing you lots of luck with your new customer, “New Employer”!

    2. Undine*

      At this point, as a departing manager, she shouldn’t reach out to you directly, so you have to reach out to her. As things now stand, you have no info. She might not have a job that’s right for you, for example. But you can reach out to her, say you are looking, as ask if she knows of anyone who needs you.

      I don’t think it reflects badly. When I’ve seen other people do it, it feels like, A found a good opportunity & a great place to work, and B felt the same way. It’s more likely to reflect badly on her (because managers are not supposed to actively recruit or poach when they leave. But you can still go, just make it clear you looked for the opportunity.)

  154. It's all academic to me*

    I am amazed at how many times the folks of AAM have changed jobs! Not counting anything previous to college graduation, I’ve worked at one employer (major retailer) for 14 years, my job was cut so I worked for another employer for one year, then I found my current job (higher education) and have been here 24 years!
    Things have not always been great -and sometimes really and truly horrific (Think: being told you have to leave your employer immediately because you’re living with another employee, when said employee has no influence over any part of your job and there is no policy on the books . . .) – for a myriad of reasons, but I just stuck it out . . . for other myriads of reasons. I moved up in both places, so that has helped, but still . . .
    I really do applaud those of you who can change jobs to better yourself/career/income, if it’s the case that the moves have been your choice! It’s a motivation/bravery that I guess I’ve never possessed!
    I’m such a fear-of-change person. It’s probably not done me too many favors . . .

    1. fposte*

      Fistbump from your sister in academic stasis. I wouldn’t call them golden handcuffs, but they’re fairly soft and mitteny.

      1. Rincat*

        Yep, higher ed’s got a pretty firm hold on me as well. It helps that I recently jumped shipped from my old, super dysfunctional department into the IT department of my dreams, and things are working out pretty well. :)

      2. It's all academic to me*

        I’m also a state employee, so my handcuffs might be a smidgen tighter. Can’t deny the benefit package when compared to some other places.
        And my commute is 10 minutes, which is great, too.
        There should be a degree for those of us that survive high ed jobs for so long…
        And I’d promise I won’t think I’m smarter than anyone else. :-)
        (Oh that post…won’t.let.me.go.)

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      14 years! Wow! I think I’m the opposite and maybe have a fear of settling down…

        1. It's all academic to me*

          It’s mos def crazy!
          Heading towards retirement and that seems impossible, too!

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            I’m 12 years into my post-college career and this is my longest stay yet (just shading a year). However it’s not job-hoppy because I had several positions in one company and then freelanced for years and years.

            1. It's all academic to me*

              I sometimes think I should have changed employers to up my income, but the timing was never quite right, as it would had involved a much lengthier, stressful commute. With my children, time was money. I regret it once in a while when I look at my bank account, and my retirement situation, but it just really wasn’t feasible with my lifestyle. Sometimes I feel like I’m living “Groundhog Day”, and I can go little crazy. Then I take a mental health day off, and my coworkers warn me that I’m never allowed to retire or leave. That makes me feel pretty good. But I’m still retiring. And changing my phone number.

    3. Atomic Orange*

      I’m on my third job in 5 years… In one case I didn’t have much of a choice though because of Toxic Boss. I don’t know about the others, but for me the fact that I’m in a growing technological field in a big city definitely played a part in my decision making. In my field, your experience, level of work, and technical knowledge is directly proportional to your compensation. So when I started a job making $X, and 3 years later I’m doing the work of someone making $Y while still making $X… ya I’d be looking at moving on.
      The cost of living in my city is high, and I’m a young single woman with a mortgage… and that’s definitely on my mind too.

  155. AnonyMeh*

    Asking just for curiosity.

    I used to work in an academic division in higher ed. Prior to the academic division, I had worked in another division in the institution for 5.5 years, with excellent performance reviews. Under the union contract, I moved to an academic division when my operations division was restructured, and my position was eliminated and made managerial.

    After one year, and a godawful review where the dean deliberately withheld feedback during the entire year just so “I would have something to put on your review”, I was placed on a performance improvement plan by the dean with four points to accomplish by X. The PIP was the result of a personality conflict with the academic division dean. {I was told by multiple people at all levels that “my plight was not going unnoticed”, but it did not prevent the PIP or my eventual termination.}

    Three items were easy (basically documenting my processes so someone else could step in and do my job), but the fourth of those items would have been impossible if that was the only thing I worked on in the entire time frame (setting up a custom letter in our ERP to go to particular students automatically upon registering for a particular class). I gave it my best effort, including participating in meetings AFTER I was informed that I would be fired, they just weren’t sure when, because they had to get the president’s approval to terminate me but she was out of town for the week (insert massive eye roll here).

    God bless higher ed – probably the only place that would fire someone, then continue their full IT access, security access, etc. for another week. LOL

    I stayed in touch with colleagues, and learned that once I left, the impossible task was not only not reassigned, but in fact was never brought up again. Although, from what I heard about my successors (the first deleted entire folders from common drives and snapped flash drives in half, rendering them useless; the second had full-on screaming meltdowns complete with throwing files around the office and at department chairs), they would have had no idea where to even start with it.

    Since it was not a mission-critical activity, would there have been any recourse for wrongful termination? Again, just a curious inquiry – I’ve moved on, but the situation has left a bad taste in my mouth. TIA

    1. fposte*

      “Wrongful termination” doesn’t mean what it sounds like (at least in the U.S.); it means fired for a reason prohibited by law, like your race, religion, or gender. The attainability of the task isn’t relevant–it would be legal to fire you for not creating cold fusion.

      A complication here is that’s talking about people with no contract, which is most of the U.S. labor force. A lot of academics even on the managerial side have contracts, and reasons for termination might be limited and spelled out. However, universities like mine just renew contracts annually anyway, so they can just wait out the year and not be in danger of breach.

      1. AnonyMeh*

        Thank you for correcting the term I used – definitely not an expert, so I appreciate it.

  156. Nancy*

    I just got invited for a second interview. I have high hopes (please) that there will be an offer made. I know their salary range as they were very up front about it. I’ve asked for the top and I’m pretty sure they will offer it (if they offer). Its about $2,000 below what I really wanted, but the role and company have other appealing things that make me want to make the move. What I really want to do is ask for banked vacation time. I currently have 3 weeks vacation time where I’m at and after spending 8 years earning that time, I really don’t want to give it up. From my understanding, they would start me with 5 days of vacation time. This position would be considered entry level for their company, but it will pay me more than what I currently make. I would understand offering a new graduate or fairly new to the career market applicant a low vacation time. But I feel like I’ve earned that time. I’m responsible with my vacation time and have ALWAYS worked around “blackout” times at work. How do I bridge this subject should I get the offer (I just want to be prepared)? Should I say that I’m really interested in the opportunity and I have been willing to take the top of the salary range because of that, however, the market value for the position and what I bring to the table would actually have me around $2,000 more. I don’t want to put them in a bad financial place and I’m willing to look at other options that are important to me, vacation time. Then explain that I’ve earned 3 weeks vacation time (only vacation time, I get personal days too) and want to know if they can match that. I’ve come up with a second part if they say no. Ask them to give me a six month evaluation and if I’m meeting standards, then I can get the extra time off. Ultimately, I have another pre-planned vacation coming up (in that 6 months time frame) and don’t want to have to take upaid time. This would fix that problem, but also give me more value on my salary without hurting their bottom line. Any advice?

    1. Anon Anon*

      I would negotiate the extra time off up front. I’m not a fan of the whole, if I’m performing in six months, I’ll get “x”, because it’s too easy for companies to play dumb at the six month mark.

      However, based on my very limited experience I have not had good luck getting another employer to negotiate vacation time. Although I may have just had bad luck. It’s the primary reason why I’m with the same organization after a decade. I hope you have better luck.

      1. Nancy*

        Thanks, it’s worth a try. I’m not sure its a reason I would turn the job down, but I want to give it a try.

    2. Nanc*

      Hmm, even if it weren’t an entry-level position it’s not that uncommon that new employees low that bump up on an anniversary date. It won’t hurt to ask as the worst they can say is no. If so, it’s certainly reasonable to ask if you can take unpaid days off or what/when the vacation bump is/occurs.

  157. Pixie S.*

    I’m going to be out of work for six weeks for a major surgery. I’m doing everything I can to make sure stuff runs smoothly in my absence– scheduling fewer classes, making sure my time sheets are done correctly, etc. I guess now what I’m worrying about is my out of office message on my work email. Do I just generally suggest that they call my department for help, or do I have a list of ‘if you are looking for…’ the way you’d hear on an automated phone system? Beyond that, if you had (or have) a coworker who’s been out for six weeks, what did they do that was great, or what didn’t they do, and you wish they had?

    1. Murphy*

      When I was on maternity leave, we had discussed putting in a list of who to contact for what, but ultimately decided that it might get complicated and something might change, so it just listed one person as a contact and she triaged anything that came in.

      1. Rincat*

        Having a triage person is a good idea. If you also have a shared departmental email, that would work too. My former boss would put a long “here’s who to contact for THIS, and then for THIS” in his out of office messages (even if he was just gone for a day!) and it was too much to read and annoying. Everyone just emailed the one departmental email despite his instructions. So, single point of contact is the way to go.

        1. Pixie S.*

          I didn’t think about that! I’ll check with my boss on what she wants me to do — but a single point of contact sounds great if she wants me to do that.

  158. Dorothy Mantooth*

    My dad’s job was recently eliminated. He had two weeks notice and was not given any severance (state position). So, he’s in need of job leads and good thoughts/prayers!

    I have helped with resume and cover letter updates, and am searching job boards for him – however what will be an issue is that he does not have a college degree. He has great experience, but it’s that hurdle of not having a degree.

    If anyone may be in/near Indiana and knows of job openings for director/manager level in guest/visitor experience, theme/attractions,museums, operations – please comment and let me know, thanks!

    1. a public historian*

      Check the National Council for Public History job listings – I saw something in Indiana posted this week. Can’t remember whether it was in guest/visitor experience or more research based but definitely worth checking whether it’s in his wheelhouse.

  159. Sybil Fawlty*

    I would like to hire some free-lance writers for my business. I’m not sure where to advertise. I’m also not sure how to know how much to pay per article or per word. I’ve seen a wide variety of prices.

    Does anyone know where I can find information and/or writers? Any good advice before I start?

    Thanks!

    1. Nanc*

      If you need them to be local you could try Craigslist.

      Join some of the freelance writer groups on LinkedIn and post jobs in the group–it’s free.

      We’ve had pretty good luck with Indeed.com’s free ads. There is a paid version but we haven’t needed it.

      Check with your local Chamber of Commerce and see if any members offer writing or marketing services.

      We use a lot of freelancers in a very niche sector so we’ haven’t had much luck with placed like Upwork (but I know folks who have–we’re just very specialized). Upwork also has a pretty good resource center.

      Is there an SBA/Small Business Development office near you? If you don’t have a current marketing plan they may be able to coach you in the process. They may also know of local freelance resources

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Angela Hoy at writersweekly.com will post listings for paid writers at no charge.

      Price setting depends so very much on what you’re asking for. Good medical writers, for example, rarely charge less than $100 per hour, but that’s a very specific and hard-to-come-by kind of expertise.

      I’d look at some of the writersweekly.com listings (or other job boards Nanc suggested above) with more of an eye to projects that sound the most similar to yours. What are THOSE people paying? That might give you a better idea of where to start.

  160. Clinical Social Worker*

    My coworker quit without notice last week. It seems clear she was struggling to do the work here and so she quit before she could be fired, is what I’m gathering. I’m having a hard time not poking my nose around for info. It’s just such a bizarre situation since she basically abandoned her patients and has pretty much put us in a lurch.

    Anyone have great ways for coping with fighting your urge for gossp? At the end of the day, I don’t really need to know how she sucked at her job or the conversations she had with my boss prior to leaving. But boy do I want to know!

    1. Finding My Out*

      Think about how you’d feel if someone was trying to gossip/find out about something you are embarrassed about–might help reinforce the “not my business” mindset.

      1. Clinical Social Worker*

        I don’t think this former coworker is embarrassed. I have been trying to chant “not my business” over and over again. I guess as long as I don’t do anything it’s fine to have this feeling, even if it feels weird.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Given your stated profession, I would urge you to take this to your own supervision – this is potentially not just an issue of workplace politics. I would urge you to reflect with your supervisor on how you’re reacting, both your nosiness and your feelings of abandonment. Ethically that’s the right thing to do. Generally when someone in a profession that involves such high levels of confidentiality starts to feel nosy in a way that crosses boundaries rather than just being curious, it’s a sign that they need to address something that’s going on within themselves.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        NB this is field-specific advice aimed at someone working in a therapeutic profession.

  161. Lindsay J*

    So, my boyfriend got hired as a manager of a team of 10 people a few months ago. He has never had a leadership position before.

    And it sounds like the team he inherited is a bit of a mess.

    He’s made one hire so far, who is highly motivated and working out well. We’ll call her Emily.

    Emily saw another one of his employees – let’s call him Mike – asleep at his desk.

    Mike, to me, sounds like he needs to be managed out. Since May he’s been very late to work multiple times. He’s basically a technical writer, but the work he turns in has a lot of errors. Emily and my boyfriend worked together to develop a proof-reading checklist for the whole department to hopefully cut down on the types of errors he makes, but instead of embracing the checklist Mike has complained about it. He also exhibits difficulty following instructions, and was dismissive and rude in an email when a director called him out on not following instructions. In the previous monthly meeting Mike filed his nails. In the most recent monthly meeting he started flossing his teeth. He was written up for poor work performance earlier this week.

    Mike has been with company for 10 years. He also is better at a certain software than anyone else in the department.

    Emily emailed my boyfriend to tell him that Mike was asleep at his desk.

    My boyfriend is trying to fix some department cultural issues, including the fact that all the employees keep tabs on one another and rat each other out constantly.

    He wants to use this situation to tell Emily he doesn’t need her to tattle on other employees.

    I think this is the wrong time to do that. Mike’s performance issues are visible to everyone in the department.

    I feel like if I were Emily, and my manager’s response to someone asleep at their desk was to tell me to not tattle, I would find it very dismissive, would make me feel like the manager was protecting or biased towards Mike, and that he wasn’t interested in fixing the department.

    Tattling on someone being a couple minutes late from lunch is one thing, I feel like the employee being asleep at his desk is another thing entirely. Pretty much every job I’ve been in that would be a big deal.

    I also think that Mike should be fired immediately. Previously I had some empathy that maybe he was just struggling. But his recent behavior makes it seem like he either has contempt for the job, or that he thinks that he can do anything he wants with no consequences.

    My boyfriend wants to give him a chance to see if the write-up knocked some sense into him. (Given that the sleeping happened a day or two after the write-up, I don’t think that it did.)

    If you were in this situation, what would you do about Mike, and what would you do about fixing the tattling culture.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’d get rid of Mike.
      I’d ask Emily to bring any concerns about other employees to me in person rather than sending an email.

      Mike obviously needs to leave. And forcing people to talk to you face to face usually discourages them from bringing up frivolous things since it’s a bit harder than just firing off a quick email. I’d follow it up with a statement along the lines of: “Unless X is creating problems with work, I’d like you to let it go. Please only come to me with workflow related issues.”

      1. Lindsay J*

        I like the idea of asking them to come face-to-face, and I especially like your script for the statement. Thank you.

    2. CatCat*

      I think you’re on the money about not telling Emily to not “tattle” on other employees.

      I don’t know what the work is, but if sleeping at the desk is okay in this workplace (I mean, I can’t imagine why that would be the case, but if so…), just say, “Sleeping at your desk is okay here so don’t worry about it.” But if sleeping at your desk is NOT okay and a serious issue, why would you scold any employee for raising it? That makes no sense and encourages employees to turn a blind eye on workplace issues rather than report them. Yeesh, don’t scold your excellent employee for raising what would be a real issue in most places.

      For each thing that really is “tattling” over minor stuff, just address it in the moment like, “You don’t need to alert me that Fergus was 2 minutes late from lunch.”

      On the Mike write-up, why would that knock sense into him? Are there any consequences for a write-up? If not, why should Mike care? If the manger is not quite ready to fire him, put him on a PIP with clear instruction on what needs to be turned around and that failure to do so will mean termination.

      Meanwhile, provide other employees with training on the software so more than one person is good at it.

      1. Lindsay J*

        I’ll have to get to the bottom as to how bad sleeping at their desk is seen there. Every job I’ve had it would be a huge issue. Maybe it’s not there?

        Writeup is the first step in their progressive disciplinary process. It’s not mandatory – they can use their discretion and skip right to a PIP or firing. But they prefer giving the employee adequate heads-up to fix the program. It doesn’t have any direct consequences at the moment (I think it might make it so you can’t transfer positions in the company or get performance based bonuses without manager override because those are typical for the industry) but it is a sign that you need to change what you’re doing or more serious consequences are forthcoming.

    3. Courtney*

      I think there’s a middle ground here, although the first thing I wanted to stress is that’s I absolutely do not think your boyfriend should ever actually use the word tattling when he talks to his employees about this. It’s not a word you typically use for adults, and I think it’s likely to make people feel defensive and not really hear what he’s saying.

      If I were him I would tell Emily that while he understands her impulse to let him know when she thinks another employee is slacking off, he wants her to refrain from doing so – that unless it’s directly affecting her, problems with Mike’s productivity are his job to handle. Because while he’s, sleeping on the job is a pretty big deal, your boyfriend clearly knows there are a lot of issues with Mile. This is just another reason his performance isn’t up to par – but she doesn’t know the circumstances of why Mike was so tired that day, and I’m with your boyfriend here on this whole business with employees keeping tabs on each other needing to stop.

      The Mike thing is a whole different issue and I’d be curious to hear how much power your boyfriend has to actually do something about it, and what he’s done so far.

      1. Lindsay J*

        Do you have any ideas for a better word or phrase to describe it? I settled on “tattling” for writing in here. The word he used when describing the behavior to me was “narc’ing” but that’s obviously not appropriate for professional contexts.

        Your middle paragraph pretty much exactly encapsulates how he feels about the entire situation.

        I feel like he’s dragging his feet as far as dealing with Mike, honestly. He has the ability to reassign work, discipline, and fire as needed. His boss has pretty much made it clear that he would be entirely okay with firing Mike so it doesn’t seem like there’s any hold-up from above. He’s addressed each issue in the moment and told him that doing X is not okay. Doing Y is not okay. Doing Z is not okay. I don’t know if he’s had a conversation with him about the over-arching issue that he’s not doing his job well, he doesn’t look like he’s trying to do the job well, and that his job is in danger if he doesn’t shape up. Apparently his boss did a lot of the talking in the write-up meeting, so maybe that did get stated then. The write-up is the only official thing that has been done, and that’s because Mike’s low-quality work caused an issue with another department so it had to be addressed.

        1. MommaTRex*

          Perhaps instead of calling it “tattling”, he could describe it as “monitoring other employees’ behavior”?

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Hmmm. He may have already set Emily up to be his sidekick, and Mike as their foe, and if so, it’s going to be difficult to get her out of that mindset. I’d probably say something like “I understand and appreciate what you’re trying to do by bringing this to my attention, but…” and then I’m not sure what to say after that. Something about I want us all to get to the point where we’re working together as a team, judged on the quality of our work, blah blah blah. I don’t know. Some nice way of saying “thanks, but stop.” Because if she’s rewarded for this act, she’s not going to stop.

      As for Mike, I’d tell him what he needs to stop doing, and proceed accordingly.

      1. WellRed*

        I think you may be right about having already set Emily up as his sidekick. If true, that’s likely to cause problems diwn the road.

        1. Lindsay J*

          I don’t think he’s necessarily set her up as his sidekick. The checklist came about because he mentioned creating one, and the company where she interned had one that she found useful so she was able to give him input on the types of things that were on it.

          Obviously I’m getting everything filtered through his perspective, but from what he says she’s the only person in that job-title that is really even approaching being more than just adequate. He has 4 technical writers (not their actual title, but it’s basically what the work is), a webmaster, some content writers, and I think some data input clerks. Mike is the problem-child at the moment, there is another guy with some work quality issues but without the attendance issues and attitude in email, another girl who was hired at the beginning of the year who is still getting her feet under her in the position, and Emily has come in with previous experience in the field and hit the ground running.

          I will definitely mention to him the potential for it to cause issues though. I’ve been in jobs where it’s wound up being the “new people” against the “old people” or the boss and their bff/pet against everyone else and it was definitely a toxic environment.

    5. LCL*

      The word ‘tattle’ is one of those words that causes people to lose their minds in a professional context, and all rational discussion is gone once that is used in the conversation. Its as effective as dropping any kind of slur for ensuring that chaos ensues. So, without using the t word,
      1. Emily shouldn’t have emailed BF to talk about Mike sleeping. She should have mentioned it to BF in person.
      2. Yes, it sounds like Mike should be asked to work elsewhere.
      3. Your boyfriend is perceptive and correct that a culture of employees constantly keeping tabs and telling on each others’ behavior is toxic. Now it’s time for BF to do the mental work of deciding what is worth reporting to him, and how he will communicate that to the rest of the employees.

      For your question what to do about Mike? Continue on with the management stuff, documenting and warning and eventually managing him out. What to do about the informant culture? Decide what is worthy of bringing to management’s attention, then communicate that with the employees. I think Emily was in the wrong, but she shouldn’t be chided for it after the fact when she thought she was doing what she was supposed to do. When BF talks to her privately, he should tell her that is an example of what he wants to stop. Based on what you wrote (I may be completely wrong) BF has empowered Emily a bit too much and she is stepping outside of her role.

      As a fairly new to management person, my first fight with my manager was about someone sleeping at a desk. There were extenuating circumstances, and while I didn’t think sleeping at a desk was professional behavior it was a direct result of company scheduling practices. And yes, the only reason it came to the manager’s attention was because the person who reported it had a scorched earth approach to coworker professional relationships and was widely despised for their approach.

      1. Lindsay J*

        It seems like not using the word “tattling” or similar, and asking people to mention things in person rather than email are the consensus here.

        Yeah, in my experience nobody likes the office rat. At my last job someone took pictures of people smoking where they weren’t supposed to (not near doorways or anything like that where the smoke could have affected other employees, but not at the outer edge of the parking-lot where they were supposed to be to comply with a smoke-free campus) in order to report it to management. They were not popular.

  162. Courtney*

    I know that generally you don’t bring up your personal life in interviews, but one of the questions earlier in this thread made me wonder – the one about interviewers asking applicants what they’d been up to between graduating and now if there’s a gap.

    My resume doesn’t exactly have a gap – I left my last job in 2014 and am finishing my bachelor’s degree in 2018. But I am anticipating that when I begin interviewing, I will probably get asked about what else I did during my time at school. I have a couple professional things to mention like practicums (I’m going into education), but those are one day a week type things that don’t really explain why I didn’t have a job while attending school. Would it be okay to mention that I’m also a mom? (My kids are 2 and 4, so they’ve been in pretty high maintenance stages while I work on my degree, haha.) Most of my classmates have side jobs (granted, they’re usually not jobs in our field) and I’m a bit concerned about looking lazy in comparison.

    It seems like almost every week I have a new question regarding schooling and/or job searches, but you guys are always so helpful! I’ve really appreciated all of the advice.

    1. Murphy*

      I think it’s reasonable to have mostly been focused on your studies (which not everyone can necessarily afford to do). I think focusing on your studies and taking care of your children is more than reasonable!

    2. Biff*

      I’d make it humorous if I felt that the interviewer wasn’t stuffy. “I decided to do college and very small children at the same time for maximum intensity. It’s only be recently that I realized I could have really punished myself by adding in a puppy.” Laughs all around, next question.

      Another option, if you were working for a number of years before college would be to say “I worked as a teapot maker for ten years, and when I decided to shift to engineering, I knew I needed to make a clean break and focus entirely on that new path in my life.” If it’s applicable, you could add “Education is now very expensive, and I saved very carefully to make sure that I could put my full effort into getting as much out of these four years as I could. They represent a significant investment.”

      1. Courtney*

        Yes! Both of your examples are things I can totally picture myself saying (assuming the interviewer doesn’t seem super formal, in the first example.) Thank you for the script suggestions!

    3. Julianne*

      I wouldn’t worry about it too much, to be honest. Early in my teaching career, I never had a principal or other school-based hiring manager ask me what else I’d been doing during college – they just wanted to talk about my field experiences (practica, student teaching, etc.). I only worked a few semesters/summers in college and it was mostly in food service, so I didn’t even put that on my resume when I was looking for my first (and second) teaching jobs.

      Focus on making sure your resume and cover letter are top-notch, do an awesome job in your student teaching so that you have great references, and have excellent answers to questions about how you structure your classroom (core content blocks/classroom management). Those are the things hiring committees care about. Good luck!

  163. Sibley*

    I work in downtown Chicago. Lollapalozza is this weekend. Started yesterday, goes through Sunday. MASSIVE concert, 100+ bands, tons of teens/people. And given where my office is, we get a lot of noise. I can’t hear the music. I hear the bass.

    My head hurts. Going to go get some water for the pain meds.

    1. Tris Prior*

      Oh god. I’m so sorry. A lot of the time, I wish I worked downtown. These past couple of days, I am very glad I don’t.

  164. Lindsay J*

    How do you go about setting goals for employees when you’re new, and when they have both more knowledge of the company and on the specific tasks they’re responsible for than you do.

    I just started in a new supervisory position about a month ago. I’ve seem some department organizational and procedural things that I’ve jumped into fixing. But I have no idea on how to handle managing the employees themselves at this point. They were without a supervisor or manager for several months, and are fairly self-sufficient. It seems like most of my role in dealing with them will be development rather than training or discipline. But I don’t really know where to start with that.

    I know some of it will get easier as I get to know them and their work habits, and the departmental procedures.

    But right now I feel fairly useless since they handle all the day-to-day operations and I’m not really doing much in the way of managing them either.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Ask them what they want to accomplish/improve upon in the next year. They’ll know it way better than you will.

  165. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

    What’s a polite way to clarify reporting relationships while you’re interviewing for a job?

    I’ve been in three situations now (two Theses and a lab assistantship) where I have been under at least two senior people who didn’t talk to each other and had divergent expectations of me. I would really prefer that this not happen again.

    (In the last situation, I didn’t even know I had to answer to the more-further-along grad assistant until I’d done something to tick him off – my faculty advisor just did not even mention it to me.)

    1. Biff*

      Maybe something like this “just so we’re clear, can I get an org chart that shows my direct supervisor and the general shape of things.”

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        Thanks! BTW sorry I didn’t thank people for their retirement suggestions last week. All helpful!

    2. Lindsay J*

      I always just ask in the interview if I would be reporting directly to them or to someone else, if their boss interacts with the people on my level or if they mostly just pass things down through the chain, etc. If I see an area where there might be a conflict (last job I worked out of a different office than my manager. In my office there was a manager that was over pretty much everyone else there, but not me. I asked a few questions about what to do if that manager asked me to do something that contradicted with what I had been told to do by my manager, exactly what authority that manager had over me, if I could ask that manager to procure supplies for me, etc).

      I don’t know what you can ask if it turns out that there are two people on the same level who co-manage you to ensure that they are aligned in their priorities and expectations. I ran into that a lot in retail and it was not fun. One manager would tell me that when it was slow I had to go out and straighten/refold the tables of clothes. Second manager would yell at me and tell me I was never to leave the cash wrap when the store was open. First manager would come back and yell at me for not straightening the tables like she asked. It sucked. But I feel like asking, “Do you and your co-manager actually talk to each other? Or is this place dysfunctional and terrible,” isn’t going to get me far in a job interview.

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        Ouch. Yeah, stuff like that is what I’d rather avoid. Thanks for the advice!

        On the “interviewing one’s interviewer” side, this might also be a good litmus test as to whether I’d want to work for them, as long as (as you say) I ask in a professional manner.

  166. Anonyby*

    So my office is having lots of problems with the property management company that we’re leasing our office space from. After years of summers where the AC didn’t work properly in the summer (causing people to get sick), they finally replaced the unit this year… only things aren’t fixed. We’re on at least the third crash of this (brand new!) unit. A couple weeks ago the offices were so cold my coworker’s hands were going numb (and we had our contraband space heaters going full blast and it wasn’t enough). On top of that and other issues, they’re generally unresponsive.

    Anyone got any horror stories dealing with their property management companies? Commercial property managers- any tenant horror stories?

  167. epilo*

    I have an interview on Monday at a very small teapot startup, and over email the CEO (who is the one who contacted me in the first place) gave me a figure for the salary, with the implication that everyone at the company gets that salary at the moment. It’s fairly low (although not too bad for me because I have never been worth much up to now – it’s lower than my current hourly rate if broken down, but more overall because it’s actually full-time and has benefits) and he said that by the end of the year, either the company will be viable or it will be bust. He also said that if the company survives to 2018, raises may happen by the end of the first quarter. The company is in the process of developing their first teapot and I think it’s going to be released by the end of the year, which explains a fair amount about the uncertainty.

    My question is, is this an opportunity worth seriously considering? I’m currently in a temporary position that is likely to end by the end of this year anyway, and if the startup offers me a position I’d be stretching myself for the first time, really, since graduating college umpteen years ago. So it sounds like a good plan, but if the company goes kaput I’ll be back to job hunting with such a short stint there that I might have to leave it off my resume anyway. Anyone who has a sense of startups, I’d love your take on it – I have absolutely no experience with them whatsoever.

    1. ArtK*

      What’s your tolerance for risk? This is very typical of start-ups. It sounds like a reasonable offer and if you can deal with things falling apart (because that’s what start-ups do), then I’d go for it. Sounds like it could be useful experience.

    2. Kately*

      Also, keep in mind there’s a difference between short stints at a place where you left because of poor fit, and short stints at a startup or other volatile enterprise that closed down and subsequently terminated your employment. The latter is something you can’t control and also pervasive in some circles, so I don’t think it would count as a black mark like the first instance would. (Although, I do not have a lot of experience hiring or working with startups – just observations from the fringe.)

  168. Hedgehog*

    I’m wondering if any of you have transitioned from an unrelated role into HR and if so, how you did it?

    For background, I have experience in a lot of various nonprofit direct service roles working with all sorts of people, I can juggle and prioritize a bunch of things at once, I’m great at navigating conflict, lots of experience with confidentiality, and I deeply appreciate policies and procedures as a form of guidance. I think I have some solid transferable skills and I’m a quick learner, but I have zero experience. I’d love to hear from people about how they made the leap (especially those who didn’t go back to school to do so) or, for the hiring managers out there, what skills would tempt you to hire someone without experience?

    1. Chaordic One*

      Well, I was working in a different department in more of a customer service/clerical role and I was recommended for an admin assistant position in HR by the person who held that role and who was retiring. After applying and interviewing for the position they hired someone else who was the spouse of someone from I.T. and I think it was sort of an accomodation for the I.T. employee. After about six months the I.T. person decided she didn’t like our company’s culture and wanted to move back to Hipster-ville. Instead of starting from scratch they moved me into the position. I didn’t do anything special to prepare for the job. It mostly seemed straight forward and I was able to build on my clerical, customer service and computer skills.

  169. Workaholic*

    This isn’t a question, just rambling. I read posts where LW is doing a co-workers work or helping more than usual and I always cringe, and think “if you pick up the slack how will your boss ever know the employee needs direction or replaced?” But it’s been brought to my attention this week that I do the same thing. I’m not in trouble and in fact was told how great my work is. But! Unless co-worker X specifically asks for me to help: don’t. Because mgr need to see if the work rotation schedule currently in place works, and if X is even doing her work. I suspect they also want to know if she does ask for help, but it hasn’t been mentioned yet. I’ve been helping for so long it’s a hard habit to break.

  170. Pandera Cred*

    I recently quit my job for another great opportunity. I gave my employer a month’s notice to help with the transition. My new employer was hesitant about my starting a month later, but knew it was the right thing for me to do. Given the work that are coming up and that this is a managerial role, I was told that I would be informed throughout the month before I started of any updates or decisions that require my attention/input. Since then I have been swarmed with communications that I have been slow to respond to because I have my own job to finish and because I took a couple of days off. Well, my new employer is now very frustrated with me and seems to be second-guessing my hire. How do i fix this?

    1. Finding My Out*

      Sounds like a discussion of expectations and boundaries on both sides might need to happen. Something like, “Now that I’ve officially taken on this new role, what are your top 3 priorities for me to turn my attention to and length of time to get those addressed?”

      It seems pretty unreasonable to me to have someone upset about hiring you because you didn’t work before your official onboarding date…so you may need to keep an eye out for that kind of thing. Could be the reason the position was open.

  171. Susan1*

    Hello!

    I was wondering – I work at a college. I have been asked to go to another campus two days a week. It used to be one day. The commute is double for me. Do you think it’s unreasonable to ask for a half hour in the morning and a half hour in the afternoon to be considered commuting time? i.e. instead of 8:30-4:30, arriving at 9 and leaving at 4, commuting extra time.

    Or if that’s unreasonable maybe I’ll ask for a reduced lunch. Wanted to hear impartial thoughts. Thank you!

    1. H.C.*

      Generally, no; if commuting the further campus is a part of your regular schedule – you cannot factor in the added travel time to reduce your work hours.

      Asking for reduced lunch time so you can arrive later or leave earlier is fine though (but also be prepared for no to that too, just in case.)

  172. Susan1*

    I have another college question. Can I use religious holidays which are in my union agreement, even if I’m not religious? I’d appreciate the time to spend preparing for the holiday dinners which are family oriented. It’s more cultural / social vs. religious as I don’t believe in God and don’t go to church. Thank you.

    1. Louise*

      I mean, I feel like that’s kinda shady and that if other people found out about it, it wouldn’t reflect super well on you. My understanding is that those things are to avoid religious discrimination, not just so people can get an extra day off. I feel like there wouldn’t be a way to prove you wrong (like no one’s gunna ask for a letter from your rabbi) but it also just feels really really unethical.

      1. H.C.*

        I guess it depends how that time off is structured; I had a job with extra “floating holidays” that employees can use to for non-federal holidays or just as extra time off.

        But yeah, if the union agreement specifies the time off is for religious observances, it’s more a matter of ethics.

    2. Courtney*

      This probably varies from place to place, but it would definitely be looked at badly at my university. Our university has many Muslim students and employees, and they are given this options when Ramadan comes. A non-Muslim employee (or student, for that matter, since professors accommodate them too) taking advantage of that benefit would not be looked at kindly. I suspect this would not be the case though when it comes to holidays that have become more secular, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re talking about.

      1. Lindsay J*

        What if they were Muslim in name only?

        Like technically I’m Catholic. I don’t go to church. I don’t really believe in God. But I went to church through making my confirmation. My family all do believe and celebrate the high holidays. Many of them know that I don’t really go to church anymore, but some of them do not.

        I would feel obviously wrong taking off for Ramadan or Rosh Hashanah.

        I also wouldn’t really consider asking to leave early on Ash Wednesday or taking off on Palm Sunday.

        But would it be wrong for me to take off on Easter Sunday even if I did not attend church but wanted to celebrate with my family? Or even if I did attend church, but it was one out of two days a year that I attended church and that it wouldn’t damage me religiously if I didn’t go?

        Because, honestly, I think it would depend on the situation for me there. If me taking off meant that one of my actually religious coworkers would feel like they couldn’t get off, or if it left the company really short-handed and made my coworkers suffer, then I wouldn’t do it. If it were something like a college class where my skipping would only affect me or a job where not working for a day could easily be made up, I might consider it. Even if I don’t celebrate those holidays religiously, it’s still a part of my cultural upbringing and having a special meal with my extended family present is still a way of observing the holiday even if it is not specifically tied to the religious part of it.

        I’m sure there are Muslim and Jewish people in similar situations with their holidays as well.

    3. HannahS*

      Yes. I say yes because a huge, huge number of people who are atheists or agnostic get Christmas and Easter off. Where I live, they get it off all through school and higher ed, then many will be paid time-and-a-half to work on those days and mostly, efforts are made to let as many people as possible take of Dec. 25 to celebrate Christmas. So, by extension, I don’t care if Zahra spends Eid al Fitr in a mosque or at home with her family, and I don’t think anyone should ask Michael if he actually fasts on Yom Kippur–both of them have the right to try to take time off. Holidays are important to identity whether you celebrate them in a cultural or religious way.

      1. HannahS*

        Right, actually, I’m a bit confused. If you and your family are celebrating Christmas, and you’re asking if you should take Christmas off despite not actually celebrating the birth of Jesus, then yes, I think you’re entitled to. If you and your family and celebrating Christmas and you’re asking if you should take Ramadan off, then no, I think that’s taking advantage.

        1. Susan1*

          Actually yeah I’m Jewish and it would be taking any of those days off. Sorry for the confusion! Was trying to be more anonymous. Thank you for your input!

          1. HannahS*

            So, I don’t mean to be presumptuous is saying this, but I do want to say that one thing to recall about being a non-religious Jew is that if you’re Jewish, all of Judaism is yours for the taking. You don’t have to be a believer to participate. Literally; that’s how our religion works. Participating in religious life without belief is not seen as phony or insincere as long as you’re not, like, pretending to be all pious or anything (which I really don’t get the impression you are). I used to study with an Aish HaTorah (very, very Orthodox) rabbi who used to say, “If lighting Shabbat candles means something to you, do it. Don’t think ‘Oh, but I’m going to go out clubbing after, I couldn’t possibly!’ All of this belongs to you.”

            1. Jean (just Jean)*

              “all of Judaism is yours for the taking. You don’t have to be a believer to participate.”

              From one Jew to another, this is a great comment. Pluralism within a religion is as important as interfaith respect. (For the record, my level of ritual observance varies depending on how tired I am after work.)

              Re both pluralism and the sometimes hard-to-navigate business of being a member of a religious minority whose holidays don’t match the “official” national days off: Many years ago, a Jewish coworker, by encouraging me to take off from work on (Jewish) holidays, taught me about the importance of ethnic solidarity and precedent-setting. My coworker’s point was that if all Jewish workers stay home on Jewish holidays, no Jewish worker ever has to answer a supervisor’s question of “Person #1 is Jewish but comes to work on this day. Why are you asking for the day off?”

          2. Ann O.*

            I’m late but I would say yes, definitely take the days off. Rosh Hashanah dinner or Passover dinner are part of the holiday celebration. Also, these are major holidays and it’s fine if you want to take them off to mark them as part of your Jewish existence even if you don’t go to synagogue or believe in G-d. Especially because we’re an action-oriented religion rather than a belief-oriented religion. Judaism doesn’t care what’s in your heart; your actions are still fulfilling a mitzvah whatever your personal motivation.

            1. Susan1*

              Thank you, Ann and Hannah <3

              Would you also take yom kippur off?

              Has anyone requested religious days off? Do you do it in person or via email?

  173. Broke New Employee*

    So, I got a new job! The problem is, the owner of the (very small) company is extremely unorganized. For example my contract started Monday, but it’s now Friday and I still don’t have access to what I need to do my job. He’s gone days without even responding to my emails.

    I’m supposed to sign an independent contractor form for the state of Montana, and there is a $125 fee. I’ve been burned big time before while working as a contract employee (an agency still owes me $700), and the owner of this company being this unorganized is making me very uneasy. Money is extremely tight these days, and I really don’t feel comfortable paying a $125 fee when I won’t get paid by this company until September 15th! Would it be acceptable to ask them to pay the fee and take it out of my paycheck?

    FWIW, I know that if I’m having this many doubts now, I should probably rethink working for this company. However, it’s way better than the toxic workplace I’m in now and the benefits (unlimited PTO, remote work, completely flexible hours) definitely outweigh the negatives.

  174. I love updates*

    I’m curious as to what posts AAM readers would like to get an update on? For me it would probably be the woman who was chameleon-like with her appearance and would make radical changes to her appearance once a month in the middle of the work day. I enjoy reading AAM and that is probably my all time favorite letter.

  175. Irish Em*

    So, I’ve been in my current part-time work placement that’s supposed to get me a “real job” since May, and I’ve sent out a bunch of CVs and only got one (1) interview, which was unsuccessful. I’m only the last week or so beginning to feel like I fit in and feel competent, and I just … I know I don’t like this work (admin/receptionist) and it’s not for me, but I’m probably going to get pigeonholed into it because my only other experience is retail (7 years) and I had to leave retail for my health, and… I am just generally sad and vacillating between wanting to work at literally anything that pays around 30k and wanting to do something I actually enjoy, and then feeling like there’s no point because all other candidates have more experience than I have. (I have 2 Master of Arts degrees, but nobody wants to take me on, I suspect because my experience has the dirty stink of retail on it – yes I believe there is a bias against people who have worked retail for an extended time in this country, and I have literally been told by a relations who used to be a recruiter that employers think there’s something wrong with someone who is unemployed for any length of time *fml*).

    I don’t really want advice because I keep getting Mansplained to when I moan about this to family, I just wanted to articulate it and put it in writing somewhere.

  176. cleverbae*

    Long-time reader, first time commenter! I love these open threads when I have the chance to read them. I just wanted to leave a comment in case anyone has a situation like I did today.
    I’m genderqueer/agender and I have pronouns that aren’t obvious (they/them). I’m in my second post-college office job in a nonprofit with a relatively liberal workforce but with some fiercely entrenched decorum. I’ve been there for about a year and a half now and haven’t really been open with my pronouns. I’m not high-up in the pecking order and haven’t felt comfortable a) having the “please use these pronouns” conversation or b)”oh, hey, it’s actually they/them, not she/her.”
    I was ready to be open about it recently and didn’t want to take a direct approach with those dreaded conversations. So, I bought a really nifty “they/them” pronoun pin and wore it on my blazer today. And, my fellow commentariat: IT WAS SO NICE. If people wanted to ask about it, they did, and I could have what felt like a real, genuine conversation about it. It was a huge confidence boost and now I really feel like I CAN have that “oh, it’s they/them actually” interjection.
    It might be different for others (I’m in a VERY blue state in the US) but it worked out for me and I guess I wanted to share that for anyone else who might be facing a similar issue.

    2. Daydream Believer*

      Genderqueer person still in college, here, and that’s so nice to hear! If I end up working in a place where it’s safe to do something like that, I’ll definitely keep it in mind!

  177. OuttaThere*

    Please tell me to cut the cord!
    I left a position in a dysfunctional place. I was the only specialist in my topic, and had many (many…) roles and duties that are not typical of other people in my role. I made manuals and task lists and binders with login information and links and so on for the person hired to replace me … and the organization decided to not replace me, but instead distribute my tasks to other people. Which the managers either didn’t do, or distributed to people without telling them, or distributed to people who 100% do not want to read a manual or learn a new process.
    So, I had some down time between Old Job and New Job, so I kept a few processes moving along, and kept answering questions for Old Job People (who still aren’t getting themselves up to speed and do NOT want any training) but now it’s time for New Job to start! I only did Old Job work because I had some wonderful clients who don’t deserve to be crapped on, but at this point, that cannot be my responsibility … right?

    1. CAA*

      Right. The script you want is “I’m sorry, but my other responsibilities make it impossible to continue answering questions. You can find everything you need in those binders and manuals I left for you.”

  178. Sweet Fish*

    Here I was just thinking that I could really use some of the open thread’s wisdom here… and then I remembered that it’s Friday, so I hope this isn’t too late!

    Long story short, my company is being acquired and there is a positive FLURRY of activity going on, especially starting September when we hit the ground running. We found all this out exactly 1 week ago. The problem is that I’d already booked almost all my PTO for the year for the last quarter– almost 2 full weeks out between September and December, and 7 days out right when everything hits critical mass. The new company is strongly suggesting that I’m going to have to reschedule or cancel some of my days out, especially my 7 day trip. Even if I do manage to take all of my scheduled time off, it won’t be PTO as I’d originally planed, but unpaid approved time off, since technically I have no vacation time accrued at this “new job.”

    However, I’m traveling internationally and have had everything locked into place (plans, accommodations, with family) since April. I’m also planning this trip due to some family members’ ailing health and not being sure when I’ll next get a chance to see them again. My other trips are also planned well in advance and it’s going to be a bitch of a time cancelling hotels, flights, etc., but they aren’t as important to me on a purely personal level.

    Some of it is just plain bad timing that nobody could help– I didn’t know about the acquisition, they didn’t know about my scheduling, but I’ll admit to feeling VERY miffed that I’m getting a strong sense of “Wow, this is so inconvenient for us,” (Hey, it’s inconvenient for me too!!!) and that they’re not willing to honor or roll over my PTO, and it’s making me a lot less willing to be cooperative even in areas where I can be. I’m also trying to decide if I want to make any effort whatsoever to tweak my international trip, or just take it and let the chips fall where they might (hey, they’re not going to pay me for the time anyway.)

    So what’s normal or not normal when it comes to PTO and scheduling conflicts during a merger? Am I right to be annoyed? Is this just standard practice and I should get used to it? What’s the best way for me to handle this?

    1. CAA*

      Are you at least getting paid for the PTO you had accrued with the old company? If you’re just losing it and not getting any compensation, that’s pretty awful. I’ve been through a few mergers, and sometimes PTO gets paid out and sometimes it just gets carried over and a new plan either starts immediately in January. I live in California though, so it’s illegal to take it away once I’ve earned it.

      I think the best thing to do at this point is sit down with your manager and find out what they actually want you to do so you have something to negotiate from. Right now all you have is some side eyeing from them and a feeling that they want you to do something. Get something more concrete so you can make real decisions and tell them yes or no.

      What I’d probably do is keep as much of the travel as I could but work remotely when it was reasonable to do so. For example, if I’m visiting family that I see frequently, it’s pretty easy to work half-days and be available by phone. Of course any time actually worked does not go on the books as unpaid time off. (If you do this, find out first if your company can let you take unpaid time in less than full-day increments.) If I had to actually cancel anything I’d lose money on, I would insist that the company reimburse my expenses, including costs for family members. If they’re not able to do that, well then I’m not able to reschedule my time off that was planned and approved well in advance.

    2. Lindsay J*

      Ugh that’s really shitty. I think you’re definitely right to be annoyed.

      I’m miffed enough that I’m going to have to take my trip to New Zealand as unpaid time off because my new company doesn’t have you accrue time in your first year – after your first year you get 5 days off dumped into your bucket, and then you accrue time in your paychecks from there. And they won’t let me borrow against future vacation days.

      But that’s my “fault” because I chose to change companies and I knew what I was getting into before I accepted the offer. You didn’t chose this at all. I really feel like they should accommodate your already booked and paid for trips as paid time off since that’s what they would have been prior to the merger. But I admittedly don’t know what the actual standard practice for this is when companies merge/are acquired, etc.

      But hearing about it from the outside it sounds profoundly unfair and I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

      As for what to do, I wouldn’t move or cancel anything unless they moved from “suggesting” to “telling” me that I needed to cancel my plans. I don’t do hints and passive-aggressiveness, especially not from people who have every ability to ask straight up for what they want from me because they hold the power in the situation. They know that asking you to cancel things would be really shitty and would make them absolutely the bad guys. If they just play the “well we’ll be so busy and it would be really great to have all hand on deck and if you really wanted this company to be successful you’d make sure that you were here during this important time” and convince you to cancel then in their eyes they didn’t “make” you do anything and they’re not the bad guys.

      And I would lay out to them the costs I would be incurring to cancel and rebook flights and hotels. And the amount of money you’re losing in vacation time that they just apparently made vanish into the ether. Maybe they’re just not considering the costs you’d incur and the inconvenience it’s causing you and once you point that out they’ll see why they’re being unreasonable. (I honestly wouldn’t hold out much hope on that happening though).

  179. Anonymous for this*

    I wrote here about a month ago about my GBF who was fired from what seemed like a promising new job after being there for only three weeks. In my post I said how I was worried that my friend might have been fired because he is gay. There were a couple of developments since then.

    I never said anything about my friend being gay, but I heard from another employee of that company who works in a different department and had met my friend. She said to me, “Oh, those women! They’ve fired and run off more good employees!” The other employee is going to be quitting for another job at the end of the month is rather happy to be leaving. I told my friend what this person said and he says that he isn’t really sure who the other women besides his supervisor might be.

    My friend was let go on a Friday afternoon and he said that during his dismissal his supervisor said to him, “Don’t worry, you’ll be paid for all of today.” He says he thought it was weird at the time, but that he never brought it up, his supervisor just stated it. Well, he finally got paid on Monday, the last day of the month and the usual payday, and he wasn’t paid for all of his last day. I think his former supervisor was just being mean to him, but he thinks she’s a dingbat who probably didn’t know if he’d be paid for the whole day or not. Instead he was paid up until 2:30 pm when he was let go, instead of being paid for the full day.

    I think he should at least complain and ask for an apology if he isn’t going to get paid for the 2 and a half hours he was thinking he’d get, but he says he’s going to let it go. OTOH, he had insurance for the month of July and was able to schedule an eye exam and get some new glasses after being let go.

  180. Gov Worker*

    I’m a Government sector worker *points to user name* (Public sector). I’ve also worked in the Private sector too.

    Is there anyone here who like me has experience in both sectors, and can maybe discuss the pros and cons of both?

    Things like managerial styles, people that are employed i.e. the way recruitment is dealt with, cultural environment. I am only a Admin Officer, and have dabbled a little bit in management (something that I don’t think I will want to do again.)

  181. Ramona Flowers*

    Our team admin, Tim, is mostly really awesome, but sometimes misreads emails.

    Example 1: my manager, Marsha, needs to be involved in a decision so I copy her in, explain what we’re discussing and say “I don’t know what you want to do Marsha?” Tim misreads this as “I don’t know what you want Marsha to do” and sends an email back (which either sounds panicked or rude, depending on how generously you interpret it) saying he can’t decide what Marsha should do and he’s already said he can’t make this decision. This email also goes to my manager. I reply very kindly saying sorry if it wasn’t clear, I actually meant Marsha should decide and let us know, please don’t worry about this. If he realised he misread, he never said.

    Example 2: I’m going to another location and need train tickets. I ask him to get a saver return for £37 which was the cheapest return ticket available. He replied saying sorry, the ticket I’d asked for cost £100 and he had to book the cheapest available, but he could get me the £37 saver return. I thought I’d been really clear and couldn’t understand why he thought I was asking for a more expensive ticket.

    I find it frustrating when someone misunderstands me after I think I’ve been very clear, but my feelings of frustration are my problem. However I am starting to dread having to email him about anything (and these are things where I do need to email for various reasons – please take me at my word on that) which is a bit counter productive.

    My emails are definitely very clear and in plain English. Do I just try to make them even more clear, or what would you do?

    1. Gov Worker*

      Would it be worth speaking to him in person i.e. vocal communication and then follow up with an email

      So something like ” Tim, further to our conversation……”

      I know some people find it easier to comprehend information when it’s verbal and not written. I guess some people just don’t read information properly and will skim, then thinking they understand a comment when in fact they have misunderstood.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Maybe, but a) he’s part-time and b) the fact I’ve emailed doesn’t mean he’s read it yet, so I’d be emailing him and then telling him about the email when he hasn’t necessarily seen it. And it’s not really practical for me to do that for various reasons.

        I might just need to think really carefully about how I word things.

        1. Gov Worker*

          I can understand where you’re coming from.

          I know how frustrating it can be when you’ve explained something in what you say is plain English and someone isn’t able to, for whatever reason, understand what you are trying to say.

          I work with some very bull headed people are just do things there way because they want to. Or people who read an email and then start panicking because in there eyes it seems bad, when in fact they haven’t read the email in full.

          How long has this been going on with Tim being like this? Is this something you could try and nip in the bud? Does this happen often with Tim or is this just on occasions? Has it badly affected the way he does his work? (Sorry for all the questions lol)

          1. Ramona Flowers*

            I don’t think he’s bull headed. Just not always careful. It’s an occasional thing but frustrating when it happens. I don’t know how it affects his work as only a small part of it involves me!

    2. CAA*

      In the first example, I also found that a bit confusing the first time I read it. It would be clearer if you put Marsha’s name first when addressing a question to her, so more like “Marsha — what would you like us to do?”, or “Marsha, please let us know what you want to do.”

  182. DanaScully*

    Does anyone have any thoughts about someone using a hot water bottle at their desk? I work in an office which is fairly business casual and we don’t have clients coming through, but sometimes visitors and members of the Senior Leadership Team.

    I’m having a particularly painful period this month and having my hot water bottle was the difference between me staying at work or going home. I’m just wondering if it somehow could come across as unprofessional or freak people out a bit. Any thoughts?

    1. Gov Worker*

      Depending on the type of environment you work in I guess. I guess my office is business causal too and hot water bottles have never been a problem. Just to be on the safe side is there a manager that you could discuss this with, someone you don’t mind letting know why you need the hot water bottle?

      I do this all the time lol, especially in the winter! So cozy :)

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Most people think it’s fine apart from that awful manager who was in that recent news story.

    3. Rebecca*

      In my office, also very casual and very few visitors, no problem at all. This includes ice packs for injuries, propping up a foot due to an injury, that type of thing. I don’t think it’s unprofessional to want to be pain free during the workday! I hope you’re feeling better.

    4. edj3*

      Would you be able to use a heating pad instead? Those are a little bit lower profile, and generally don’t run afoul of any fire regulations.

    5. Anono-me*

      You may want to look into Thermacare heat packs (or othe brands) for times when a hot water bottle isn’t practical or you want something more discrete.

      Feel better soon.

    6. Chaordic One*

      My office is fairly casual, and even though we have a lot of clients coming in, something like this wouldn’t raise an eyebrow. There are times where it seems like we have 3 or 4 people wearing casts on various body parts, hobbling around on crutches, and the smell of icy hot fills the air. (My employer prides itself on having a casual, startup-like, atmosphere, even though that’s not at all what we are.)

    7. DanaScully*

      Thank you all for your replies. It’s good to know that I’m probably just overthinking this. Thank you also for the well wishes, I’m doing much better now.

  183. Some sort of Management Consultant*

    Maybe someone is reading here still and can offer some advice?

    I’m going on a course with work tomorrow and the weather is predicted to be unusually hot – 40 degrees Celsius! (104 F)

    We’ll of course be inside in air conditioning most of the time but there is one afternoon planned with activities outside (in a city)

    I’m REALLY not good with heat. I sweat insane amounts which means I have to drink A LOT to make up for it. I also take some meds that affect my heart (betablockers and ADHD meds).

    Running around in 40 degree weather is going to be extremely uncomfortable at best and possibly dangerous.

    Can I ask to skip the running around – team building?

    1. Kickin' Crab*

      Yeah, running around in that kind of weather is no good for anyone! Can you approach someone discreetly and explain that due to medical problems you can’t participate in the outdoor activities but you’re looking forward to the rest of the team building?

    2. Anono-me*

      As this is unusually weather for your area, the management people on your team may already be looking at other options (unless their team-building inspiration is from Captain Hawks of Away All Boats).

      If melting all over town is still on schedule, I would just say something like “I’m going to have to sit this out for health reasons, can I help by___ (taking pictures, helping set up for the next event, making sure everybody has enough water, driving coworkers
      who collapse to the hospital, etc)?”.

      I have found “It sounds like fun, but it’s just not worth filling out the on the job injury paperwork.” to be an effective response to push back.

      Take care and have fun.

  184. Kay*

    I feel as though I am going to fired in the coming weeks. A large, ongoing mistake that I’ve made is coming to light. I was aware of it and working towards correcting it, but didn’t realize the gravity of how bad it really was until recently. I’ve been exceptionally overwhelmed in the position, which my team knows about, and have been seriously considering getting a new job. Unfortunately, a position I recently was being considered for ended up being put “on hold.” I have some applicTions out already but am not far into the pipeline for any other positions.

    My question is how do I get a job if I end up being fired? This is the only career position I’ve ever had. I’ve been here for 3.5 years, directly from college. My supervisors love me at the moment but probably won’t once they find out about this big, ongoing mistake.

    1. Gov Worker*

      Something very similar happened to me and I was young at the time (19 years old), the only thing I could think of doing was to hand in my notice instead of getting fired. I handed in my notice because I knew that I didn’t want the whole “getting fired” getting in the way of finding a new job. I didn’t want to have to explain to any prospective recruiters why I got fired.

      Once I’d handed in my notice (which wasn’t a surprise) I was allowed to walk out that same day, didn’t need to work my month’s notice (I got paid for it though). I started to tell companies that the reason I had left (was only there 6 months) was because their was no growth (I lied obviously). But it worked out in the end. I was never questioned much on why I left.

    2. B&B*

      Your supervisor doesn’t know about this error? Have you known about this error for a while and not admitted it to your supervisor? Now might be the time to get out in front of it and meet with your supervisor and let her know about it, and what you’ve done to try to fix it. Your team knows about your struggle in your position. Admitting your error (without excuses why it happened), may be a good first step in getting some support from your team.

    3. Menacia*

      I have to agree with B&B, own the mistake instead of trying to find an out. I have certainly made mistakes as have others where I work, some affecting the entire company. As soon as I realize it, I let those involved know, and then start a plan of action to resolve it (usually with others assisting me). I have, in turn, assisted others whenever they make a mistake.

      This could be a terrific opportunity for growth for you, especially in your first position.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think you have skipped a step here.

      I am amazed by the things I did NOT get fired for.
      If you have not talked to your boss, please do so. I found that if I report myself, MOST of the time there was a lot less fall out.
      In discussing it, tell the boss what you have done so far to remedy the situation. Tell him you are willing to work to make the situation right and you understand he may have to fire you. Then wait and see what he says.

      Have a plan for either way, if he fires you or if he does not fire you.

  185. Seren*

    A raise question – my boss knows I have been looking to leave for months, but I haven’t found a new job yet and I’ve been able to do projects that have brought more value to the company. Annual reviews are up and I should definitely go for the raise even though I’m planning to leave, right?

  186. FormerLW*

    I hope folks are still reading this thread, because I would really appreciate some immediate, concrete tips and advice on my own approach to “reigning it in” at work. Background: I am a long-time employee of a large organization in a very small office. I am the most senior employee under our brand-new boss. Two things are at play. One, I’ve grown comfortable here and don’t have any separation of “work personality” and “private personality”. I never make comments that are inappropriately sexual, scatalogical, un-pc, etc. but I candidly offer my opinions of work situations and individuals within the larger organization. I’m blunt and sarcastic. Two, part of my role is to act as an advisor to the boss, make sure he understands tricky interoffice dynamics, and offer my opinions, which he can use as he sees fit.

    Bottom line – he thinks I am a wild card, and it’s clear I need to speak more delicately, make fewer jokes, and take on a less negative tone when explaining dicey situations or projects. I consider our little office a safe zone where things stay between us, but he doesn’t yet know that I behave differently in the presence of “outsiders”. I’m also burnt out, big time, and should probably leave. Any mental tips and tricks I can use to put on my work armor, change my approach, and make the boss happy? I do like him and think he will excel in his role. Thanks – I don’t want to sour our relationship.

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is tough. When you “rein it in” you’re going to have to sort of not be yourself and that’s really difficult. You already say that you’re burnt out big time. Having to “rein it in” probably only stresses you out further because you have to think twice before you say anything. I would really start looking for another job, not because of having to “rein it in,” but because you’re burnt out big time.

      That said, I imagine that if you were to start a new job, you’d probably manage to “rein it in” without thinking about it so much. You just have to sort of make that shift in consciousness without leaving your current workplace. It probably means being a bit more formal and also feeling (to yourself) like you are a bit of a phoney. It sucks, it’s uncomfortable and I don’t really know what else to say.

      1. FormerLW*

        Thanks for your solid advice and for correcting my typo. I certainly don’t want to do any “reigning”!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      BTDT. This is hard.
      I loaded myself up with work. I found more stuff to do or asked for more stuff. My theory was that if my mind could come up with random remarks then I did not have enough going on to fill my mind up.

      Or you could just take the bull by the horns and say, “Boss, I know that this is not apparent so I wanted to state it directly: I do like working for you and I think you will excel in your role.”
      Tell him late in the day when it is close to quitting time. I think he will be more likely to remember this.

  187. Dark Anon*

    I’m a little weirded out by this work situation, so I want some advice. We are supposed to have annual and 6 month reviews for performance. I was hired in December 2015, and had two direct reports at teh time. I noticed immediately that their PR’s were overdue by about a year, but figured my boss would take care of it since I was brand new.

    I was supposed to have my first 6 month review in June 2016, which we ended up cancelling and never rescheduling. Later on, my boss decided that she wanted my two reports to continue reporting to her, which I agreed with but was disappointed about. Last December, we all got an email reminding us to enter our goals, which I did late because we were in the EOY rush (I’m in a nonprofit). I never had a review. Now should be time for another standarad 6 month review, which has gone unremarked on, and I’m like, “I’ll just review my own goals and make sure I’m on task”. In fairness, we just had a major system relaunch in June and things have been very busy.

    Should I do anything about this at all, or should I ask about it? I’m not as worried about a raise as making sure that my work has been acceptable. So far as I know, I’m fine…but this is the first time I’ve been in a situation where the reviews were more or less just ‘let go’ without a comment or explanation.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I don’t think it would hurt to remind your supervisor about the missed reviews. You really need to discuss, not just your performance, but also future goals and those of your reports.

  188. Jessa*

    So I’ve been at a new job for about two and a half months and so far it’s been rough. The work is fine but my new boss really doesn’t like me. He told me not to ask him any questions (because he’s too busy to answer–the question I asked was literally ‘what time did you want to take this phone call’) and direct everything to the other secretary. He also told me not to look at him when he comes over to talk to the other secretary and ‘focus on my work’. I get the reasoning behind both these points but it makes me wonder about my job security and whether I can stand to work for this guy. Luckily in the long run I won’t be reporting directly to him so I’m probably fine, but for now…

    Also being the new person has sucked more than I thought it would and I don’t think the other people on this team like me much either.

    (Should probably mention I have major depression that I’m not medicated for, but I have a psychiatrist appointment in a week.)

    Anyway there’s no real question here other than I guess ‘is this normal’

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      No it’s not normal! How horrible – it sounds like you are working for the male version of Miranda from The Devil Wears Prada.

      Depression can amplify some things and can plant extra insecurities like worrying that people think badly of you. But there is no objective normality in your boss’s behaviour.

  189. Chaordic One*

    Um, no it’s not exactly normal. Don’t look at him? Is he unusual looking? I can’t imagine that you stare at him instead of doing your work and it’s perfectly natural to look up to see who walks into a room and then to go back to what you were doing.

    I hope you get along O.K. with the other secretary, she’s kind of the key to whether or not this is going to work out. I’m glad that you’re getting some counseling. I think that will help you better assess the situation and figure out how to deal with it.

  190. ken*

    I applied for a job back in late June and had a phone interview. An hour before the second, in-person interview was set to happen, I got a call from the interviewer telling me the funding had not come through and the position was being cancelled. Fast forward to this week, when a person holding a different but similar position resigned, and the position I wanted was reposted. The interviewer e-mailed me asking me to apply again, which I am doing. My question is do I attach the original cover letter? Should I write a new one that acknowledges what happened the first time? Do I even bother with a cover letter? I should add that I have been working part time for this company in a different department for the past 10 years, so I don’t necessarily need to introduce or sell myself the way I might with another company.

  191. Chaordic One*

    If you are still interested in the job and are going to reapply for the position, yes, send another cover letter. Since you are a known quantity to the people you are going to be interviewing with, you probably don’t need to provide as detailed a cover letter or sell yourself as hard (in the letter) the way you would as if you were applying or even reapplying for a position where you were not well-known.

    Of course, don’t be antagonistic, or let them know how disappointed you were when the funding fell through the first time because it probably isn’t the fault of the people doing the hiring. I’m certainly not as good at coming up with scripts as Allison is, but I think I’d say something along the lines of:

    “I am very excited to learn that the Teapot Manager position has been reopened. I am still very interested in the position and would like to again be considered for it. I look forward to discussing the position in an interview and hope that you will get back to me to schedule one.”

    If your work experience and duties have stayed the same since you applied, you don’t need to update your resume, but if the have, than it would be wise to revise. The same with the application, if anything has changed, then update it. If everything is the same then you can probably use the same application, however, if there’s a sheet where you have to sign and date it, you should replace that page of the application and re-sign it and date it to the day you send in the application again.

    Also, send a reply email back to the interviewer and thank him or her for keeping you in mind let them know that you’ll be reapplying (assuming you are reapplying).

  192. Big Problem*

    I was raped by my coworker…..
    So without getting into details, my coworker and I went out and, well, he raped me. It was not violent or traumatic, but it was rape.
    This happened a couple of weeks ago and I’ve been coping with the whole idea of rape and what it means. Aside from that, I don’t plan to leave my job, and I’m not reporting the rape for various reasons. But I still have to work with the guy. So far it’s been slightly awkward in the office, since he and I only know what happened between us. How do I cope with this (and please don’t tell me to report, I’ve discussed it with my fam and we’ve decided it would do more harm than good)?
    I would be horrified if my bosses ever found out that he and I even went out–although there are no rules against it and he is not my supervisor. I just feel it might look unprofessional.

    1. Observer*

      I’m going to suggest that you see a rape counselor. AND to rethink – with someone outside of your family – your decision not to report. It’s not just that you’re leaving a predator in the loose – I get that you get to make the choice the serves your interests. But, I don’t think your judgement is sound here. I say that because the idea that it would look unprofessional that you even went out with a coworker even though there are no rules in place, sounds skewed enough that I’m questioning your judgement of the whole situation.

      Someone like a rape counselor – who is legally and by the ethics of the profession required to keep your confidence – would be a good resource here. You would get someone who is outside the situation, whose primary goal is to help you and who will not breach your privacy to both help you process and to make a sound decision. And if I’m wrong about the reporting being a danger to you, a good counselor will not push you or try to convince you that it’s not a danger, because their first priority has to be helping you.

      1. Paige Turner*

        Seconded- you can call RAINN at 800-656-HOPE, or the National Sexual Assault Hotline anytime at 1-800-656-4673; they also have an online chat function. Whatever you decide, talking to someone can help you cope and do what’s best for you. I’m sorry this happened- please remember that no matter what, it’s not your fault.

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