open thread – May 10-11, 2019

by Alison Green on May 10, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Not So Super-visor*

    How do I get people to stop asking if I’m ok after not getting a promotion? I don’t want to come off as bitter, but I’m tired of people asking.
    I had a 24 hour head start on mentally preparing myself for the announcement and came up with some planned scripts. The first week, I was able to easily answer with a “I hear great things about Fergus, and his work in X,Y,and Z,” but it’s starting to wear on me. I was seen as a front-runner by a lot of people (which is flattering), and it was my only path for career development, so it’s left me with a lot of things to process (do I move to another department/role and start over, do I leave, do I stick it out,etc.) It’s been almost 2 weeks, and I still get at least one person who asks me a day. Added to the wear-and-tear is that I’ve had several people that I manage or that are junior to me in other departments express their dissapointment to me that this means that my job won’t be open and posted, and they view my position (only one like it in the company) as their desired career path. I had one person even joke that he’d have to return the tie that he’d bought for an interview. (I’m sorry?) I’m just struggling to keep up a positive front and manage other people’s expectations while managing my own dissapointment/future plans.

    1. Anony*

      Honestly it sounds like your coworkers are being a bit weird and unprofessional about this. I’d never ask someone how they feel about missing out on an internal promotion two weeks after the fact – why drag it up again?

      Sorry I don’t have much to offer other than to brush it off and change the subject in a breezy way. They’ll move on soon.

      “All good, thanks! Did you want to talk about X?”

      2. Life is Good*

        And, your employees who wanted to apply for your job are vultures! It must be weird to manage them. I’m sorry. Be good to yourself and don’t let these clouds get you down.

      3. Samwise*

        Btdt. Just keep responding, “Thanks so much for asking [because most folks are asking because they like you and think you’re good]. It was a disappointment of course, but I’m working on giant project which is keeping me busy!/ thinking about my next steps — is love to pick your brain! [for people who could be helpful to you]. So, how’s the new llama AI research going?

        For bozos who tell you how sorry they are that now they can’t apply for your job, pause, study them a moment, then say, I’m a joking/not joking way, sorry, I’m not dead yet [thats my Monty python go to, pick something jokey that also
        Makes it clear you’re not too amused].

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Two weeks at one person each day, minimally? You have a pretty good size workplace.

      Depending on your setting you might answer with, “I’m okay here. But people keep asking me, if you could help spread the word around that I am okay and I have moved on to other things, that would sure help.”

      I found that if I say that a couple times the questioning stops.

      1. Not So Super-visor*

        es, we have about 400 people here at corp HQ and 50 other regional offices. I’ve heard from people all over the company and had many drop-by’s from people that I’ve only met a handful of times.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Wow, that’s obnoxious. I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. Hopefully, something else riveting will happen at your workplace so everyone can quickly focus on something else.

    3. INeedANap*

      I would say something like, “Oh, it was a disappointment but I’d rather just move on now – no hard feelings.”

      In a weird way, I think people are seeking reassurance from you for themselves – they like you, they want you to be okay, and so they keep coming back to reassure themselves you are ok? So by making it clear that, actually, this isn’t a super fun thing to talk about and you want to move on, it might stop them from coming back to it so much.

      1. tallteapot*

        I was in your shoes about 18 months ago and it sucks. I am really, really sorry because these are sucky, sucky shoes to be in. Fortunately, my coworkers were kind and I didn’t have to deal with that aspect of the loss. I am still in the same job, but I have, at least, been able to add some new responsibilities to my plate, which has helped me feel a bit less awful. My suggestion to you would be to think about how you’d like to grow in your current role in ways that might better position you to move elsewhere (whether than be in the same company, but in a very different direction, or to a different company entirely). I’m hoping that in the next year or so, this strategy pays off for me.

        1. Not So Super-visor*

          This is honestly what I’m hoping for and the mindset that I started out with: what can I learn from Fergus that will make me more successful either here or at a different role?
          Current boss (retiring) is not great at development. He’s the kind of boss that you’re supposed to assume that if you haven’t heard from him that you’re doing a good job. Boss did let it slip that Fergus was hired for his experience in X,Y,and Z which is only semi-related to what our division covers and that Fergus will be clueless at A, B, and C which are the actual focus of our division. He made sure to emphasize that Fergus will really rely on me to show him the ropes in these areas. Sadly, the only way for me to get experience in X,Y, and Z are to leave my division and start over as an entry level position in Fergus’ old division. It’s not something that’s necessarily appealing to me, and something that would be looked at strangely at any other company that I can think of.

          1. Lucy*

            Ugh I once lived through “hey we appointed the other person who doesn’t have your skills/experience but would you consider contributing to those parts of the job you didn’t get without any of the recognition?”

            I was young enough to ask why on earth they thought I would be happy to do that, but that ended up being the solution and I learned a lot from the experience.

            Deep breath. You will prove yourself.

            1. On Anon*

              I’m living this right now, and without any decent chance of applying elsewhere. It’s hard, and perhaps Not So Super-visor’s colleagues are having the same hard time some of mine are: they believe we’ve been screwed over and put in a hard situation, and how they’re recognizing it and giving sympathy for the situation isn’t well-thought-out with respect to its (cumulative) effect.

              I usually give some sort of “I can’t focus on that, I still have a job to do” response. It is what it is, but it’s also not our job to reassure them. I’m also planning to make some above-and-beyond efforts and see what recognition I can get even though someone else got the position; there’s potential to redirect some of the verbal support into actual support for my efforts.

    4. Anona*

      This happened to me almost a decade ago, and it still makes me cringe. I ended up staying with the organization (and have sense advanced in other ways, just not in the original position I was aiming for). It’s such a rough, rough feeling. Hang in there! I hope you have a restful, rejuvenating weekend. No specific advice, I just remember how much it sucked. I guess one piece of advice– it made me feel less trapped to start applying to other jobs.

    5. LPUK*

      My Dad worked for an airline, so obviously operational on all special days. Their system was a combination of seniority and who had the time off in previous years, but they also had form of points system, where holiday periods and bank holidays were loaded with different levels of points eg 5 points for Christmas Day and Easter Sunday, 4 points for 24th and 26th, good Friday , 3 for other days in Xmas week etc. And everyone had a points allocation they could ‘spend’ across the year. obviously if you absolutely wanted Xmas day off, then you would bid more points to get it and accept you’d be working some of the other days, but if you didn’t care so much, you could spend your points on less loaded dates and be confident with getting more of them. Worked pretty well ( except you could never get holiday during the summer season of course!)

    6. Buggy Crispino*

      It’s almost like they want to drag this out and make you feel bad. How about a nice little quote from The Princess Bride … “thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you’re at it, why don’t you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?”

      1. Samwise*

        Nice one! Say it lightly… returns the awkward to the sender without making a scene.

    7. Your Alternate Reality Peon*

      Wow. You are almost me, or I am almost you. Same thing happened to me. I was the front runner for a promotion my boss wanted me for. It went to an external candidate. Unlike you, however, only one coworker asked me how I was doing. Everyone else congratulated me (because I did get a smaller promotion as a consolation prize). It’s a tough situation to be in. I feel for you. I think the script you have is a perfect one – Being honest that Yes, it’s a disappointment but then saying something positive about the successful candidate. Give it some time. It’ll die down as the new normal comes in — if you decide to stay in the job. But it’s also perfectly acceptable to start some slow job hunting if you decide the wound will remain tender for too long or you want different career options than your current role. At least you have the luxury of time – so that’s something!

    8. montescristo1985*

      I wonder if you are putting something out there that is causing them to question how you feel about it? It seems really weird to me that people are asking about this after so long unless you appear to be strongly effected by it.

  2. ThatGirl*

    First – a question: I have an internal interview on Tuesday. My company is very informal; the only dress code is “no gym clothes or club wear” and most people wear jeans daily. I’m not even sure if I have dress pants that fit. Any suggestions on what I should wear for the interview? I want to look like I made an effort at least.

    Second – a quick story. Monday we had a Town Hall meeting and I was given an award – basically we can nominate our co-workers for being extra helpful/living company values. Mine was basically for helping my team get through a bit of a rough transition project. I went up to collect my little certificate, hugged my coworker who nominated me, and the CEO (a woman in her 50s who is professional but very also approachable and warm) kinda put her arm around me and said congratulations and by pure impulse, I HUGGED her.

    And then 30 seconds later I was like wow, I just hugged the CEO in front of basically the entire company….

    luckily I don’t think anyone thought much of it but I’m still mildly embarrassed!

      1. ThatGirl*

        I can certainly wear a dressier top, I’ll have to see what I have in terms of blazers/jackets. I tend to wear dark jeans and heels/boots anyway.

    2. Not So Super-visor*

      I’m a big proponent of the “dress for the job that you want motto.” Think about what the manager/higher-up in the department that you’re interviewing wears and dress accordingly.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It’s a purely lateral move – the manager for the new team wears jeans too. Our VPs tend to dress a little nicer, but nobody’s wearing suits on a regular basis.

        1. KRM*

          Maybe one step up from normal office wear–nicer pants (if you usually wear jeans) and a blazer over a top you’d normally wear, or maybe a dress with a blazer?

          1. Take Me Home!*

            I agree with one step up, and I love dresses for that. a sheath dress and blazer or cardigan is appropriate in a wide range of situations.

        2. Mike*

          Our company is like that too the CEO wears jeans and a polo shirt or casual button-down shirt. We have one VP who wears a blazer but other than big events most people are pretty casually dressed. For my position I’m basically left wearing polo shirts or over-dressing and that means I can only order new work clothing once a year when we do a company clothing drive. I really envy the women for their extra range of clothing options (in winter I could wear sweaters but it’s often too hot for that).

    3. Sunflower*

      I would wear jeans, blouse, blazer. If your boss knows you’re interviewing, you could ask her what would be appropriate to wear also.

    4. 8DaysAWeek*

      Agree with the other comments. I was in the same boat a few years ago. I just wore black dress pants and a semi-casual blazer. You can easily acquire those at a second-hand store.
      You want to make the effort. It matters.

      1. The Jones*

        There are also charitable organizations that donate professional clothing to those in need.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I’m not in need! I know where to find and can afford a blazer if I decide I want one. But thank you.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m always in perma-casual offices and I would just wear a nice blouse with my jeans. It’s a lateral move within your own organization so they’re not expecting you to appear wearing a suit by any means, this kind of interview has a little less formality given your knowledge of their norms and you probably know the people interviewing you at least casually!

      She put her arm around you and gave you an indication of closeness, she probably wasn’t shocked by it or anything. I’ve hugged my bosses/owners of businesses at times so I’m just not shook by that lol. Now if she went to shake hands and you pulled her in for a hug without thinking, that would be another story!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thanks! I will definitely at least wear a nicer blouse and jewelry, and possibly something over top. I’m meeting with four people and two of them know me moderately well, the other two I haven’t met formally.

        I don’t think the CEO was shocked, she is a pretty approachable and friendly person (we’ve had random conversations about tea in the lunchroom) and she did have her arm around me, but I still had that moment of “oh. oops. oh well.” :)

        1. Lime Lehmer*

          I think Black Jeans might be the best choice. Dressier than regular ones, but still casual.

          On the hug, I had a serious issue with a co-worker that mainly revolved around her bad mouthing me and throwing me under the bus on her project that I was merely supposed to offer assistance. The boss , the chair of a huge university department wanted to fire her and put me on PIP. I offered my resignation, twice, and told him that I didn’t need PIP, I needed grief counseling as my father had died only 17 days before. Then to my horror I burst out into tears. He ended up hugging me and referring me to EA.
          When it came time to the following year to work with this co-worker again, I realized I would retire rather than deal with her toxic self again. so I went looking for a new position at the university, and got a new, lower stress, higher paying position in a different department. Old boss recently told me how much he missed me. Toxic employee was forced to resign over some irregularities.

      2. ThatGirl*

        PS – your name always makes me smile because my husband is a huge Becky Lynch fan.

          1. buffty*

            My husband and I are both big Becky Lynch fans too, I also smile when your comments come across. And I think I saw in another thread earlier this week that you’re also a vegetarian? I suppose I am also a Becky Lynch fan fan!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I’m not a vegetarian! I’m just an advocate for those who are because I’ve seen how cruel it can be when people try to screw with your dietary requirements on whims ;) Let people live and free-will for all, etc etc etc. But mostly #BeckyTwoBelts4EVA

              1. buffty*

                Pro-veg still retains fan status! :) I’m so glad Becky has finally gotten the attention (and belts) she deserves, she was woefully underused and under appreciated when I first became a fan.

      3. Paquita*

        A few weeks ago I hugged the owner of our company. I was in passing through the lobby when he was leaving for lunch. I stopped him and hugged him. He said he needs more of that, I said come over to our area more often and you will get lots! Company/family is giving him a 90th birthday party next month.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      I’m a fan of black pants (dark or black jeans) with sandals or boots depending on the season. You can just throw on any top that’s nice, and you will rarely be over or underdressed.

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      If you have a nice dress, you could wear that – nothing too fancy since your office is more on the casual side of business casual. I like the suggestions above of nice top with jeans too – don’t worry about the blazer if you don’t have any. A nice cardigan can stand in as a substitute.

      And don’t be embarrassed about the hug – I bet no one will think anything of it.

    8. medium of ballpoint*

      I’d say do what you can to make an effort. I was recently in a difficult spot where we interviewed an internal candidate who thought she was a shoo-in for the job and we had to have some really uncomfortable talks because she was so blase she didn’t make the cut. At least in my industry, it helps for internal candidates to go a smidge above and beyond.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      Sometimes extra attention to the details can elevate an outfit nearly as much as the pieces themselves.

      A fresh manicure (even if it’s just clear polish), a scarf, nice belt, a slightly more involved or “done” hairstyle…it sends the message of extra preparation and effort without being more formal.

    10. Yuan Zai*

      I”m another vote for dress up just a bit – in addition to the blazer others have mentioned, there are some nice dressy cardigans out there and if you go for a color like black or navy blue, it’ll go with just about everything you already own. As a bonus, you’ll totally wear a sweater again at some point.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      I’d skip the jeans and go with a pair of black slacks, black flats, a nicer top or blouse and a relaxed blazer. You can shed the blazer later on for regular work. This is basically my daily work uniform, and it’s really nothing too complicated or too dressy, yet looks more professional than jeans if you have client meetings or in this case an in-house interview. The top could even be a black or white t-shirt that has a more upscale drapey fabric.

      If you don’t have any such separates, they’re easy to find at Target, JCPenny, Marshalls, Old Navy, etc., and shouldn’t be overly expensive. Plus, you can always wear these kinds of basics with everything later.

    12. Save One Day at a Time*

      If you don’t have any dress pants that fit do you have other pants or a dressier jean? Wear it with a more formal blouse than you’d normally wear. Look more formal than normal without going out to buy something new.

  3. Jan Levinson*

    I have a dilemma with vacation time around Christmas this year…

    My office has 4 interoffice employees – my boss, my two coworkers, and myself.
    This year, we have Tuesday, 12/24 and Wednesday, 12/25 as company holidays. On January 2nd this year (the first workday of 2019), I put in a vacation request in on our online system to have Monday, 12/23 off, and Thursday, 12/26. A few days later, my boss sent and email to my two coworkers and I saying this:

    Paid time away from work is something that we each earn and anticipate using. Holidays are a popular time to add a day before or after to extend out that break. While I would love for every individual to have their desired time away from work, it is important that we are able to staff our operations during these times as well.
    There is no 100% fair way to navigate time off … whether it be by seniority or first to request the time or a rotation of every other year who is awarded the time away (the rotation is especially needed surrounding Christmas).
    As you submit time this year, please keep all these factors in mind. We need to work as a team to ensure we have coverage during operating hours.
    Thank you in advance for your understanding.

    For what it’s worth, I am the most senior person out of me and my two coworkers, and I am almost certain I was also the first to request these two days off since I proactively submitted them at the first opportunity I had.
    However, my boss in the past has made comments about how she wants to make sure people who live out of town get time off to see their families around the holidays. My husband and I’s families both live in our hometown, which my boss is aware of. My two coworkers’ families both live out-of-state. I feel like I am at a disadvantage because I have the luxury of having family in town.

    My vacation request has now been “pending” for over 4 months. My husband and I are considering going on a short cruise over Christmas, so I’d like to check in with my manager to see if she has made a decision on vacation time around Christmas, but I have a feeling she will guilt trip me into volunteering to work at least one of these days because “Ned and Ayra’s families both live out of town”, even though it’s possible I won’t be in town over the holidays.

    I’ve always used the time around Christmas to have about 5 days straight off, and truly unplug from the daily grind. I really value that time. It hasn’t been a problem in past years when I’ve worked here, because Christmas has always fallen closer to, or on the weekend, and I only have to request one day off.
    Our office is always dead during the week of Christmas, so I assume only one of us three will have to work (Also FWIW, my manager always takes the entire week of Christmas off…it would be nice if she would volunteer to work for once and let all of us off, but unfortunately I don’t think that will happen.)

    I don’t mean to sound selfish, as I know my coworkers would like this time off too. But like I said, I do feel that it’s unfair if my boss defaults to me because I have family here, and can take a cruise at another time during the year.

    1. WellRed*

      (As someone who doesn’t live near family, myself), I think this is unfair to you. Ultimately, you want the time off and your boss is making assumptions not only about your plans but also your coworkers. It’s also not reasonable to hold off for months on your approval. Is she waiting for others to ask for the time off? Talk to her today.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I don’t know, actually! When she sent that email, I just assumed the other two coworkers had requested those days off as well, but it’s possible they didn’t.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you offer anything in exchange?
      One place I worked, I had Thanksgiving off, I volunteered for a double on Christmas and I had New Years off.

      If I were you, I would see if I could offer one sweet deal that the boss would really want.

      FWIW, we had all the things you are saying here. Everyone had strong reason for wanting this or that- but I noticed they all wanted time off and NONE of them were saying that they were willing to work during a holiday time. I think you can distinguish yourself and your request by saying what you are willing to do to get this time you want.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Well, we already get Thanksgiving off (and the day after), and I wasn’t planning on taking any days around there off anyway. We get all the standard holidays off. I just like taking extra days off before/after Christmas Eve.

    3. Murphy*

      There is no 100% fair way to staff holidays, but there are better ways than this! I’d ask her about it, because ignoring your time off request isn’t going to fix it.

      At my old job, we needed coverage all the time, and my boss would ask people for their holiday preferences. This usually (but not always) took care of it.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Yeah, I think the problem is that being such a small office, no one bothered making a time off policy. Knowing how my boss is, I think the request would literally sit there pending until November or possible even December if I didn’t say anything.

      2. Clisby*

        It doesn’t sound like staffing holidays is the issue – if I understood the letter correctly, all of them get the 2 holidays (Christmas Eve and Christmas) off. The real problem seems to be lack of policy around scheduling vacation days. While it might commonly arise around holidays, there are other contexts, too – like all the parents in an office competing to have the same spring break week off so the whole family can take a trip.

    4. LCL*

      Given the information provided, it sounds like your small office doesn’t really have a system or rules for vacation requests. The boss and employees just work it out informally, which is fine until it doesn’t work. Part of the problem is the boss doesn’t consider herself part of the vacation request process, and is able to take her week off no matter what. She is also wrong to stall you for 4 months.
      I think you should talk to her and ask her to make a decision. Tell her you are also trying to book travel. Would you be willing to work the Friday 12/27? That can be a really tough day to fill. Point out to her, depending on your business, there might not be any customers to serve that Christmas week anyway.

      I’m so glad I’m retiring this year and wrote my last! Christmas! schedule! in February.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Yep, that’s the problem – we’re a small office, so no one has even bothered to make a vacation policy.

        Yes, I’m planning on working 12/27, which I imagine other people will want off, so hopefully that will work in my favor.

        It will definitely be dead at my office all week. We thought our corporate office would make the 23rd a holiday since it’s a Monday and we already get that Tuesday and Wednesday off, but they didn’t…

      2. Southern Yankee*

        I live a good distance from my family and usually only travel once a year. I have also managed a group of 30 where we needed coverage and everyone wanted off for Christmas. We had a stated policy that made it easier to manage but it still was a huge source of conflict and hard feelings every year. As a boss, I tried to balance it so that everyone could at least take some holidays off and would rotate the “best” holidays although it didn’t always work.
        I think a lack of policy makes it harder, and your boss should not be stalling the request and should probably not always be the one that takes the entire week off if they can provide coverage. However, you also seem unconcerned about being fair to your co-workers. If your family was 500+ miles away, how would you feel about not being able to travel home for Christmas several years in a row because the person with the most seniority always got the days off? I’m not saying that you should automatically always have to work because you are in town, either, but compromise and empathy will go a long way here.
        I suggest you have a conversation with your co-workers and/or your boss about how you can all be flexible and each come out with something. Can you offer to work around Thanksgiving or other holidays, or offer to work next year on the odd days around Christmas? Or offer to work this year to have off next? It can be very useful to have someone offer to take the day before (Mon 23) but be willing to work the day after (Thu 26), then another person could take Thu/Fri and have the weekend after to make travel easier (or vice versa). If you go in with an entitled attitude, you are likely to be disappointed. If you realize everyone else also wants that time off for equally valid reasons, you can probably reach a workable compromise. In any case, definitely bring it up with your boss instead of just waiting for a decision that may take months to come.

        1. Jan Levinson*

          Sorry if I wasn’t clear in my original email…they’ve always gotten time off for travel in the past. As I mentioned, in 2017 and 2018, Christmas fell closer to/on the weekend (neither of them were there prior to 2017), so everyone got at least 4 days straight off without having to take ANY vacation (and I believe at least one of them took an additional vacation day. I’m certainly not unconcerned with them spending time with family. This is the first year all three of us have been here where Christmas and Christmas Eve were in the middle of the week, so there has never been a time off situation in the past to where I “always for the days off” because of my seniority. Please do not jump to conclusions that I am going in with an entitled attitude…if anything, I’m usually overly accommodating. That is part of the reason I’m hesitant to talk to my boss. She will guilt me into working both days without speaking to my two coworkers, and I’ll agree because it’s in my nature.

          1. Kelly*

            You’re an adult. Your boss cannot ‘make’ you feel guilty. No one is saying you’re acting entitled as far as I can tell.

            1. valentine*

              Your boss cannot ‘make’ you feel guilty.
              Many can and this one does.

              She will guilt me into working both days without speaking to my two coworkers, and I’ll agree because it’s in my nature.
              That’s behavior, not nature. Your nature is that you’re kind and thoughtful. You can learn to detach and resist*. Also: Is she manipulating you (“I bet January and Freon would like to see their families, especially with the [tragedy] and the [sadness]. Do you want to be a good coworker and only take one of these days?”) or just asking so she can run scenarios (“Do you definitely want both days? Is there a day you want more than the other?”)? Either way, wait her out. Don’t volunteer anything. (This may feel like death.) Ask if she can make a decision by x day this month so you can make travel plans (don’t specify). Later in the year, if it seems like it’s not going your way, offer to work Sunday and Friday instead (unless you’re only open weekdays). In the new year, suggest a strict rota with boss covering if the person calls out sick.

              *Emotional Blackmail and Toxic Parents may be helpful. (Be advised author Susan Forward’s obsessed with the gender binary and uses white USians as a default.)

          2. Southern Yankee*

            I wasn’t saying that you were acting entitled or would go in with an entitled attitude, just warning against it. Some additional comments have come in and you’ve added some details, so I’ll just add this. Definitely talk to your co-workers about what their plans/needs/wants are. They may not conflict at all and your boss was just trying to get ahead of it because of your request.
            Also, although this appears to be the first year at your job that Christmas falls in the middle of the week, it will be the case next year as well. So, this is a great situation for a compromise. If all three of you want 5 days off around Christmas, how can that happen? This year, one person takes vacation Monday, so gets Sat-Wed off, one person takes Thu/Fri off and gets Tues-Sun off, and next year the person that didn’t get to do it this year gets first priority next year. Figuring out which person gets which option is for negotiating with your coworkers and your boss.

          3. Mr. Shark*

            I think you just have to be upfront about it, and as someone already mentioned, go and talk to your boss and indicate that this year you had planned to take a trip and would be out of town, so you need to know right now if you can book travel.
            The offer to work on the 27th and before New Years Day may make it that someone else can take that time off instead of around Christmas. In either case, speaking directly to your boss is the only way that you can know for sure whether you can get that time off.

    5. medium of ballpoint*

      Holiday time is hard. But on the flip side, if I’m your coworker and you’ve regularly gotten five days off during the holidays while I can’t get one or two (which likely means I can’t travel to see my family at all), I’d be thinking it was pretty unfair to me, too.

      1. kittymommy*

        This is what I was curious about as well. Vacation around holidays is always a struggle around here as well and since it’s government we must have coverage. Generally, we all try to trade off and/or rotate major holidays.

      2. Jan Levinson*

        I haven’t gotten more days than any of them off in the past. Last year, Christmas Eve and Christmas were on Monday and Tuesday, so I took just Wednesday off (I meant 5 days off straight when including the weekend, and the days our office is already closed.) The prior year, Christmas Eve and Christmas were on a Sunday and Monday, so we got Christmas off, and the day after Christmas, so I didn’t take any days off then.

        1. medium of ballpoint*

          So then I’d say if you were the last person in the office to take extra days off around Christmas, it’s someone else’s turn to get Christmas this year, barring a better policy your boss implements. But yeah, I’d be a bit annoyed if in the absence of a policy there wasn’t some informal turn taking and compromising.

          2. Take Me Home!*

            Also, the fairest way seems to me to be to let one person have the one day before the holiday (and the friday before the weekend if they want more days) and a separate person have the two days after the holiday. That way two people can have extended vacations rather than only one person taking both sides.

            OP – I totally think that it’s reasonable for you to have one of the sides since you asked first and have seniority and there’s no real policy, but I think it’s pretty inconsiderate to try for both sides when there’s an opportunity for two people to get extended holidays! And in any case, your boss should really not have put this off for months.

      3. Cheshire Cat*

        I used to work at a library; most of the staff had family in the area and almost everyone wanted the week between Christmas & New Year’s off. I think we had the 24th-26th off, but the library was open (and busy) the rest of the time.

        Schools were closed for two weeks, so the director decided that half of the staff could take off the first week & the other half could take off the second week. The next year, everyone switched which week we were off.

        It wasn’t a perfect system, but it was the most fair one we had while I was there. It helped that we could plan for trips ahead of time. Maybe your boss could implement something similar? Whatever works in your office.

    6. RandomU...*

      One thing I would do is to talk to your boss (the email is the perfect opening) and let her know that you were thinking of a cruise this year.

      I typically wait until October before figuring out who gets to take time off during the holidays (but would move up the timeline if someone approached me with a special circumstance). I have one employee that will put in her request for Christmas on Jan 2nd or 3rd. Basically I sit on all requests until we start to get close, then plot them out. After figuring out the staffing needs, I’ll then put out the list who is planning to be out and who plans to be in the office. If there are more people who want off than we can handle, I ask the teams to talk about it. 9/10 times someone will come back with “Oh, I don’t have any plans, I can work that day… and I’ll take this other day off instead”. If the team can’t get to the needed staffing levels, then we talk more. It basically comes down to “Ok… what would be the plan if all the people were out and Wakeen’s the only one covering” This usually brings some creativity to the table… everything from people offering to be ‘on call’ to offers to work a half day, etc.

      Then after this is worked out, the managers in the team all get together and do the same thing.

      Is this way perfect, no. Does it more or less work out in the end? Yep. Is there a better way to do it, I haven’t thought of it, but I’m open to suggestions.

      1. LGC*

        Yeah, that was my read on it! Jan’s boss is being super passive aggressive in her approach, but also…what jumped out was that Jan put in time SUPER EARLY. I’d probably sit on it a while myself.

        I think I’d add in some elements of preference, if you don’t already – if someone took time off last year, their request has lower precedence. But that doesn’t sound like a bad system at all.

        1. RandomU...*

          “I think I’d add in some elements of preference, if you don’t already – if someone took time off last year, their request has lower precedence”

          This usually comes out in the discussion. Also things like special circumstances, travel, other holidays worked, etc.

          The teams work really well together and have been working together for a long time, so this process works with them. I’m sure this would be disaster in other teams so if stopped working or if I get a different team I might have to come up with a different approach.

          Honestly, vacation schedules are one of the least liked jobs of a manager. Most* want to say yes to everyone and don’t want to be in a position to have to say no. So it is likely to be one of those things that they get wishy washy about. I’m not necessarily wishy-washy, I just want the team to have the opportunity to figure it out between themselves first since I think that most* employees are fair minded.

          The one thing is I told them up front when I started with the team that this is how it would work and that I had no problem with making final decisions. I think that’s where most managers get this wrong. They don’t set that expectation up front and that leaves everyone guessing as to how things will be handled.

          *I’m not foolish enough to think that all managers and employees are the same :)

          1. Samwise*

            Hmm, if I read correctly, you’ve had this week off before — how recently and how often? Is it more or less than your coworkers? That’s something to consider.
            Are there other holidays at other times where you could take PTO to make five days in a row?

            1. Samwise*

              Oops, ok, just read your answer to my first point!
              Still can use the second point.
              How many people have to be in the office? If just one, it would be nice for the manager to do it! They can take vacay another time. Unfortunately that’s not something you can suggest !

          2. LGC*

            Then yeah, you have…basically the best structure I could think of for organizing time off! I’m in agreement that most people aren’t jerks (and it’s good to have guardrails for people who are jerks), so – yeah – it’s good to work things out.

            (For what it’s worth, I’ll usually ask my coworker if she has any plans before I put in for time off. Or I’ll take time off at a less common time – like, I did take the week before Easter off this year, but that was because that also happened to be the week of the Boston Marathon. And that’s not going to be the case next year.)

        2. Zennish*

          This. If you put in for time off 358 days in advance to try and get the jump on your coworkers, I’d probably give it the eye-roll, and sit on it too. Of course, given the situation, the boss needs to come up with an actual method for determining holiday time off, so I can’t totally blame the LW.

    7. Random commenter*

      I do think it’s unfair to decide based on who’s family lives where, but if you regularly have a day off around Christmas, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to deny the request so that someone else gets the chance.

      It would probably be worth letting your boss know that you have pending vacation plans, otherwise they might not realize that you need an answer sooner rather than later.

    8. Trout 'Waver*

      I think the issue here is that you’re asking for time off on both sides of the Christmas Holiday. If you’re doing an extended holiday, taking both sides screws over somebody. If you’re already planning on working Friday the 27th, why not just take Friday the 20th off and come in on Thursday the 26th?

      The person who covers also wants to take an extended break too. If they have to come in on both the 23rd and the 26th to cover for you, they can’t do that. There’s also the optics of putting in the request the very instant you first could. You knew it would be contentious and you went ahead anyway without talking to your colleagues about it.

      1. Tacocat*

        I had a colleague who used to put in requests for extra days around EVERY HOLIDAY as soon as the system opened for the next year. So on Jan 2nd she’d have booked off extra time at Easter, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and Christmas… effectively barring her teams from doing the same thing. She was awful.

        Not saying this is the same thing, but responding to the “optics” that trout waver mentions.

        1. valentine*

          taking both sides screws over somebody
          The boss is the one screwing everybody over by not closing the office for the week (I assume no lives are saved there), not implementing a strict rota, and refusing to work during this time of allegedly important coverage.

          1. valentine*

            on Jan 2nd she’d have booked off extra time
            Couldn’t everyone have done this? If that’s her jam, why shouldn’t she get her days? Closed mouths don’t get fed.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              That’s a dick move. People should take their coworkers into consideration when it comes to stuff like that.

              1. JulieCanCan*

                Lolol glad someone finally said it. I mean, if I were the boss I would sit on it til October, just because.

                I’m sorry, but either this boss needs to actually be a freakin’ manager and MANAGE rather than sending out a totally unhelpful and pointless email, AND/OR the 3 coworkers need to talk amongst themselves and figure out a fair game plan and compromise, deliberate and come to a conclusion that all 3 are semi-satisfied with.

                Maybe sit down and hash out the year from A to Z since the boss is essentially useless. Make it an inclusive and complete decision and then go to the useless boss and let her know you’ve done her job for her (kidding, don’t say that part) and this is how vacations around the important holidays will be broken down.

                Actually first and foremost I’d get the three coworkers together and go to the boss and ask for the week off, or alternate the two last weeks of December and one person be in one week and then the other 2 the next. Or whatever gives coverage for those 2 weeks so everyone can have extended time away. Contact other companies that do similar work, in the same industry, and ask what their holiday schedule is. Do they close for the whole 2-week stretch? Do they do skeleton crews? Gather as much favorable information as possible then present it to useless boss in a matter of fact, composed and business-like way. THAT would be my first step. Depending on how that goes, you know how to proceed.

                Stingy bosses suck but working with coworkers who aren’t willing to compromise can be a total bummer too.

        2. MatKnifeNinja*

          Did you work my hospital?

          Vacation stuff opened up January 3rd, and I worked on a floor where the full timers had their requests in on January second.

          No one would divide up Christmas week. People would not budge, and would call in sick if scheduled.

          So…I never got Christmas/Christmas Eve off because I was part time. Same for Easter Sunday. The manager would run all my six work days together over the holidays.

          It was the manager who threw all part timers under the bus. I don’t blame the full timers for gaming the system. If you don’t game, you don’t get.

          At this place, full time and early requests trumped anything else. That way the manager could throw her hands up in the air.

        3. Clisby*

          I don’t see what’s awful about putting in those requests as early as possible. If putting in the request actually is the same as “booking” the holiday, then it’s the company policy that’s awful.

      2. Malarkey*

        I agree with this. By taking time on both sides it means that others aren’t getting the “long weekend” benefit. If you get Tues/We’d off I’d suggest you either take Thur and Friday after or Monday and Friday before. That way you’re still getting a full week off, and others can also get a long break.

        Working just Friday the 27th isn’t much help since someone will have to come in for one day (Thur the 26th) and cant travel if they are off 2 days, on 1, and then off 3 (whether for family or a trip).

        1. Mr. Shark*

          Yes, this is a good point. Setting up the time off either before or after the holiday gives more flexibility to others who want to enjoy the extended holiday by bracketing the weekend.

    9. M2*

      It sounds like based on your statement that you have taken the time off around Christmas the last few years? Is that the case? Maybe if you have you shouldn’t take all those days off this year. Or maybe your manager realizes you have taken the time off the last few years and wants to see if your other team members want the time off. I for one can’t make Christmas plans until the fall (both my family and my husbands family live far away do we decide what works best for us with traveling or staying home in the fall).

      I also think offices need to be better about having people work during favored vacation times. I think companies should say if you work over these days everyone wants to take for vacation you get X number of extra vacation/ comp days so it’s incentivized. I have done that for my team not over Christmas but we have a very busy period and then when it is slower the team members get X number of comp days for their extra work during the busy period (for exempt and non exempt) and it really helps morale and is the right thing to do in my opinion.

      Personally my office is closed for Christmas but everyone must be on emails and come in if there is an emergency. Those who don’t celebrate Christmas get extra comp/ vacation over Holidays for them and also get that week from Christmas to New Years “off” unless some major issue (which has never happened since I have been here).

      I know it stinks but if you can’t take that time off this year maybe take a cruise a different time or can you take days off the week before maybe that Monday 23 and the Friday prior so you could do Friday-Wednesday off? GL

    10. BRR*

      Time off around Christmas can often be tough (see the numerous letters Alison gets). Honestly, I don’t like a first come first serve or seniority approach for deciding who gets the highly-coveted days. I also don’t like using who has family further away and depending on things don’t like that your boss is exempt from this. I think the least-worst solution is to first try and see if people do have the availability and if you are missing coverage then you try and divide up the days, including people not getting them one year and then getting them the next.

      All of that being said, I think you can say you’re trying to plan some travel and ask when a plan for Christmas might be decided. Mid-May might be a little early for your coworkers to have finalized their travel plans but maybe you can at least establish a timeline for deciding on things.

    11. Hope*

      Would it be possible for you to ask for the Friday before Christmas and the Monday you’ve already asked for, thereby still getting 5 days off, but leaving the day after Christmas free for someone else to have? Or, alternately, come in on Monday but take the Thursday and Friday after Christmas off?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        It would be, yes. If it comes down to it, I’d prefer to work that Monday and then take the day after Christmas off.

        1. Malarkey*

          I commented above too but I think taking Thur (26th) but working Fri (27th) won’t really help coworkers. Someone will have 2 days off (24/25), then come in 1 day, before being off for 3 days (including the weekend.)
          That’s a pretty crappy schedule if they were hoping to travel (either for family or a personal trip).
          And although it’s not “fair” necessarily preventing someone from being able to travel to see their family when you just prefer to be off will have some lasting affects on how they perceive you (and I TOTALLY get your viewpoint but sometimes it comes down to preventing really hard feelings)

          1. Hope*

            Well, some people do Christmas stuff the weekend before when it falls that way, so getting weekend+Monday+ChristmasEve+Christmas, come in Thursday, get Friday off is still a decent extended time to go see family. I mean, basically, one person gets the aforementioned break, one person gets weekend+Monday+ChristmasEve+Christmas+Thursday, come in Friday, and one person gets come in Monday, then take off ChristmasEve+Christmas+Thursday+Friday+weekend. It’s a matter of hashing out whether the weekend before is better for someone than the weekend after. And maybe whoever gets the coveted Thursday+Friday off this year agrees they get last pick for which weekday they have to work when calling dibs on dates next year.

            I mean, if I were the boss and it’s not retail, I’d just close all but maybe one day and be done with it given the way it falls, but that doesn’t seem to be an option here.

            1. Trout 'Waver*

              There’s no situation in which I’d work the Thursday after Christmas and then want to also take that Friday off. And I’d be pretty resentful of the person who made me come in for just that day.

              In a job that requires coverage, taking time off on both sides of a middle-of-the-week major holiday is a jerk move if it’s done without working it out with your colleagues. Doubly so when the person in question does it on the very first day the system opens up without talking to them.

              Asserting seniority is like asserting authority. You may get your way, but people aren’t going to like you for it.

              1. WellRed*

                It’s not a jerk move, but you might not be able to do it. If I had to work either the 24th or 26th, I can’t travel for Christmas. If that’s the case, so be it. but ugh! I like the idea of incentives someone else mentioned.

              2. Samwise*

                I’d do it, though. I wouldn’t mind getting out of the house and catching up on planning and so on while the office was quiet. But then I almost never travel over winter break, because the hotels and airports are crowded and people are cranky and I always always get stuck in some icy airport in the middle of the country. It’s gotta be mighty special (wedding, for instance) to get me on a plane on late December.
                Maybe one of OP’s coworkers feels the same?? Can’t hurt to ask.

                1. JulieCanCan*

                  Agreed – when I absolutely have to work around the holidays, I always end up enjoying it because it’s quiet and I get to catch up on the 500 things I’ve put in my “to do when I have some time” pile. Then when I’m done I can watch a movie or do endless internet scrolling and don’t feel guilty about it.

                  I also despise traveling around Christmas/Thanksgiving/New Year and if I were planning a cruise, Christmas week is the LAST week I’d pick out of the 52 we have available. Ugh – the minute I read that I felt a wave of anxiety and dread come over my body. Why do something that should be relaxing during one of the 2 most atrocious travel weeks of the year? I also believe it’s more expensive – OP you might want to reconsider the cruise, that might help everything settle into place.

      2. Tacocat*

        Or the first week of the new year even? A lot of my colleagues do that, and it’s actually kind of nice because they get a dead week and then a week off.

      3. Blue*

        Yeah, I was thinking this kind of compromise might work, but it would require a larger conversation. If there are just a couple of other employees and the boss is likely to be a roadblock, I might go straight to my coworkers, ask about their plans, and see what you can work out amongst yourselves.

        That said, as someone who lives in a different state from their entire family, I know it may be hard for them to commit to anything right now. I have three siblings who all have kids to juggle and in-law visits to coordinate, so they/I rarely know their likely availability until much closer to Christmas. But if a coworker came to me early because they were looking to commit to travel plans for Christmas, I wouldn’t make them wait for me. As long as there was still a built-in opportunity for me to go visit my family, I’d tell my coworker to go ahead with their plans and I’d work around them.

    12. Cowgirlinhiding*

      Talk to your boss. Let her know that you are trying to plan a trip out of town that requires you to book ahead of time (with money down), thus the early request. It sounds like from her letter that she is assuming you were just trying to get extra time off, not realizing that people sometimes plan things for that time of year.

    13. Ann Perkins*

      Have you talked to your coworkers about it? It stinks that there is no formal process and that your boss seems to be avoiding the issue. That being said, if you’ve been the one to typically get the most desirable days – i.e. the days right after or before Christmas – it sounds like it’s your turn to cover that awkward Monday. But if you work it out with your coworkers maybe you could do a New Year’s stretch instead.

      1. zora*

        This would be my suggestion, too. If there are only three of you can you just check in with each other and see what everyone wants, and see if there’s a plan that works for all three of you? maybe one of them would be willing to work around Christmas in exchange for more days off at another time?

        I always kind of hated flying before and after Christmas anyway, so I always liked waiting a little later to visit family.

    14. Evil HR Person*

      I guess where I’m getting stuck – and forgive me if you answered, but I can’t see if you did – is whether you worked those days in 2018 or not. If you did work them, then the “rotation” portion of your boss’s email would apply, and you should have the time off. If you didn’t work, then it’s fair to give the time off to one of your colleagues. Did your boss default to you because of your family being nearby, or because you had the time off last year, and should work it this year? Either way, ask your boss if your time will be approved, and tell him/her why you need to know this so early in the year – to buy cruise tickets.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        In 2018, since Christmas fell on a Tuesday, we all got Monday, 12/24 and Tuesday, 12/25 off as holidays. I took (1) additional day as vacation, Wednesday, 12/26. Another one of my coworkers also took the 26th off, and the other took Friday the 21st off. So, we all got 1 day around Christmas.

        I think she will default to me because I have family nearby, not because of any time off last year, since all three of us took the same amount of time off (1 day around Christmas).

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Have you talked to your other coworkers about their plans? There may be an obvious solution, depending on what they are thinking.

    15. Jan Levinson*

      EDIT: I am adding this because I think my original post did not have clarity about past years. I have never taken more vacation days off than my two coworkers around the holidays.

      2018: Christmas was on Tuesday, December 25th. Our office had Monday, December 24th and Tuesday, December 25th as holidays, so no one worked. I also took (1) vacation day on Wednesday, December 26th. One of my other coworkers also took the 26th off, and the other one took Friday, December 21st off.
      2017: Christmas was on Monday, December 25th. Since Christmas Eve fell on a weekend, we got Monday, December 25th and Tuesday, December 26th as holidays. I also took (1) vacation day on Wednesday, December 27th. Similarly to 2018, on of my coworkers also took the 27th off, and the other took Friday, December 22nd off.

      This is the FIRST YEAR where all three of us have worked here that this has been an issue, because Christmas Eve and Christmas both fall in the middle of the week. FWIW, in 2016 (before my coworkers started) I didn’t take any vacation days off around Christmas, as I was the newest employee.

      1. SS*

        Looking at your boss’ email in your original post, it seems like they’re placing the responsibility on individuals to “please keep all these factors in mind.” If it were me, I would approach boss to see what issues are arising (are there many other requests at this time?) and if so, perhaps there can be a group effort to resolve this by developing a system that everyone agrees to (like a rotation). I know he’s saying that no system is completely fair, but lack of system that is agreed upon can likely lead to arbitrary or less fair decisions. So if everyone’s bought into a system, then there will be less confusion/ unpredictability and the issue will be resolved long-term rather than for this particular vacation. However, I would also base the level of energy I exert into this based on my commitment to this place. In conversations with boss, I would also highlight sentiments you had here like that it wouldn’t be fair to make decisions based on who has family where (unless colleagues agree to that).

    16. Psyche*

      Would it work if you took off Friday and Monday instead of Monday and Thursday? If the length of consecutive time is what matters that might be a good compromise.

    17. Not So Super-visor*

      I am in your boss’ shoes every year when it comes to PTO requests and the holidays. I have a few employees with the most seniority who want all of the days before/after major holidays off and leave none available for other employees. They are unbending on this and phrases like “I always get this time off” and “I have the most seniority” are frequently used. What tipped the scales for me was an employee who had worked for us for 8 years who through tears admitted that she had NEVER been allowed to have time around the holidays off because someone with 6 months more seniority always got it. I had to put a rotational plan into place (ie – if you got the day after Christmas off this year, you can’t request it unless other employees don’t want it)
      If you’ve always gotten that time off and your coworkers have always had to work it for you, maybe you should consider your coworker’s feelings about it.

      2. Kat in VA*

        Every year around the holidays, I am forcible reminded that there are people who truly don’t care what happens to others as long as they get what they want. :(

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          Worse is, the jerk coworker has to work Christmas Day. I got on call duty. Guess who called in, and I had to work anyway.

          Rage inducing.

          1. Kat in VA*

            People can be such jerks – and so insulting. Like you wouldn’t notice that he called in on that day?

      3. NW Mossy*

        I’m in a similar boat – I manage two small teams (4 and 5 people), and the holiday season is also our busiest. I have to have a certain number of people working, and it’s tough when those with long tenure (which translates to A LOT of PTO in our org) snipe the prime days when others have equally reasonable desires to take the time as well. To the extent that I don’t have to, I really don’t want to get into whose time off request is “more important” – how the heck can I judge the value of maintaining a decades-long tradition of gathering local family against someone else’s family coming in from another continent?

        One option I’m implementing this year is offering the option of working remotely to reduce the number of days off they take. It gives some flexibility to travel and/or spend time with loved ones but still get business needs met. We’ll see how it goes, but at least one person took up that offer.

    18. Animal worker*

      I work in a zoo which requires 365 day/year coverage. We use a combination of factors in deciding time off requests around the holidays – with a main factor being a rotation so that different people get to have it off. What we do is have a period each year where people can put in for time off around T’giving and Christmas/New Years. Then we get all of the requests and look at the schedule to see how many of them we can grant to keep minimal staffing to care for the animals. Some years we can approve them all – which is great. If we have overlap/conflicts, we look at the past few years’ history of who has been off, and prioritize those who haven’t had it as recently. If all other things are equal, such as the people with the overlap both had time off the same recent period, then seniority is a tiebreaker. My managers and I wrote up a policy for our team a couple of years ago for this – we ask for holiday requests during June, we start working on the schedule for that period in July, and we make approvals by August 1. If someone has a more time sensitive need, they let us know, and we sometimes adjust the time period as needed to evaluate that. It’s worked well for us. I don’t like straight seniority on this, or who asks first – the approach where everyone gets to put in requests in the same period and all are evaluated equally works for us.

      I wish that’s the way it was for me and my peers – some years it seems like it’s seniority, others it’s first come first serve. Some years they figure out who is covering the holidays then approve additional time off after that, last year the holiday periods were all blocked off by the time I got one of the holidays off so I couldn’t travel to see family. I think it’s important that whatever process you have is transparent to all and consistent.

      1. Everdene*

        This seems like a really fair way of doing it. My partners office will not approve any holidays for Christmas/New Year until mid/late November! Every year we can’t plan anything until its too close and therefore expensive. We also have to keep extra holidays aside in case he is approved for what we want, but then when the request is inevitably declined he is pressured to use them before year end. Both our dad’s have birthdays over the holidays as well as Christmas/New Year and our families are all in limbo every year because of his employers bad policy.

        (He’s also bottom of the request pile, yes he has seniority but we don’t have kids so the bosses are all BUT SAAAAANTA!)

    19. Me*

      It doesn’t sound like the boss is defaulting to you. You said you always take those 5 days. So you’ve been getting those days for how long? I think your boss is seeing the the issue is that you always have those 5 days. And really that’s not fair.
      Combined with the request going in first it’s hard for anyone else to have a shot at those days. I’m curious if you have more paid leave available due to seniority too?

      I was so fortunate that when my kid was little my coworkers were great about covering for me around Christmas. Now that she’s older, it’s my turn to repay the favor. I would like off sure, but I will be the last one to put in. I get over double the leave that my colleagues do – I could put in leave on the first of the year and have dibs on every major holiday and still have two weeks in the summer. But that’s not fair and not a great way to build good will.

      Frankly everyone should get the chance. If you got it last year, then someone else should get a turn if they wish.

    20. Celery Juice*

      Sorry, but I’m on the your being unfair taking the full week off so you can go on a Christmas cruise, when your co-workers most likely want to spend time with their families and their families are out of town. In your situation I would either take the days before or after off. Unless one of your co-workers doesn’t celebrate Christmas then you’re fine.

    21. LCL*

      I’m still wearing my scheduler hat, it’s hard to take it off. So I am pointing out that next year, 2020, is a leap year. Christmas Ever 2020, December 24, is Thursday and Christmas is Friday.

    22. Samwise*

      Hmm, if I read correctly, you’ve had this week off before — how recently and how often? Is it more or less than your coworkers? That’s something to consider.
      Are there other holidays at other times where you could take PTO to make five days in a row?

    23. CM*

      Your boss is probably right that just using seniority or first-come-first-serve isn’t always the fairest way to make these decisions, but I think you’re right to want to know how they ARE going to make the decision (and when, and if it can be sped up so you can try to make your travel plans).

      If the most important part of this for you is wanting an uninterrupted block of time (and not whether it happens at Christmas), and if Christmas is a hot commodity in your office, you might also be able to negotiate some kind of deal where you take one for the team by working over Christmas week but then get extra PTO days for your sacrifice.

      I think there might be a subtext in your question where you think vacation SHOULD be determined by seniority or first-come-first-serve and you’re frustrated that that’s not happening. If that’s the case, maybe think about whether you’re getting any other benefit from your seniority (e.g., more vacation time, more pay, better title, better assignments, etc) and, if not, or if it doesn’t feel like enough, maybe it’s time to try to renegotiate.

    24. Holiday Grump*

      if i’m understanding the situation, you and three others are the pool of people. you also say that you’ve historically always been able to take those holiday adjacent days off. doesn’t that mean that your peers have had to cover those days every single year? don’t you think the fairest thing to do would be to have everyone take turns? why should you be the only one exempt? this issue generally is a sore spot with me, because in my organization and role, i’m almost always the only man and the only person with no kids. so of course the general thinking is i should be the one covering the days around christmas. so for sixteen years i’ve maybe had one time when i didn’t have to work the days between christmas and new years (because i was on medical leave). and my two coworkers have had every year off except one. usually i dont mind, i even generally volunteer. but every few years i resent it a bit. be fair. take turns.

      1. WellRed*

        It’s on you to speak up though, not get all resentful. If you regularly volunteer what the hell are people supposed to think? Want this Christmas off? Request it.

    25. TGOTAL*

      Have you spoken with your colleagues about their holiday leave plans yet? If you can all work out coverage amongst yourselves and present your boss with a comprehensive proposed leave schedule, I’d think chances are good it would be approved.

      A few years ago in my old office, three of us had conflicting requests for leave after Christmas, and our boss told us to try to work it out ourselves. One coworker whined that she and her husband *always* took those days to go visit his family. The other two of us reminded her we had family to visit, too (both of us were singles without family in the area), and pointed out she was the only one of us who’d gotten those days the previous year. Fortunately, she agreed to take the week before Christmas instead, as I had done the previous year, and our boss approved our revised plan.

  4. Sunflower*

    Has anyone started a new job that should be great and challenging and for some reason, you just feel meh and unmotivated?

    I started a new job 5 weeks ago (I’m an event planner). The work is challenging, I get to develop events from scratch, and I LOVE the company. This should have me so excited to dive into this work…But I just feel unmotivated and annoyed at all of it. I should mention that during my job search, I was unsure if I wanted to stick with event planning but I was so burned out and overworked at my last job, I didn’t really have the time to explore additional options. I also feel intimidated since OldJob had set procedures/processes that I executed and I’m expected to develop these now- I’m nervous I’m not qualified and this is stressing me out more than exciting me. This leads to me slacking off most of the day and then being anxious about not doing good work. It’s a terrible cycle.

    This could be a result of personal stuff (don’t want to derail but my therapist said she’s seeing signs of depression) but the point is, I need to find a way to get motivated and get the work done. I know no one can answer whether the motivation issue is me or the work so I’m planning to take my newly found time outside of work to explore other industries and see if anything sticks.

    In the meantime, just wondering if anyone has felt this way, if it went away and any tips for getting through it?

    1. Been In Events Before*

      The procedures/processes development at this job – Was this explained to you in the job interview that they needed this done? Is there someone else you can loop in to help with this? What worked at your old job that you can also utilize at this job?

      What is it about event planning that you love?

      1. Sunflower*

        I did know I’d be setting up some procedures- I didn’t realize that I’d also be taking on events that other people were already doing and there is a bit of tension over this. It became clear to me that there are some procedures in place but my boss seems on a mission to prove we can execute better and she seems hesitant about me working with these folks which is really bothersome to me. The planning groups are disorganized and the consensus is that the events should be super easy to execute. That way of thinking is pretty common and one of the reasons I wanted to leave events- I’m tired of having to explain my job and defend it over and over and over again with 1000 documents. I don’t even know how I ended up in events tbh- I DESPISE being detail oriented and hate when people need every detail explained out to them and written down. I have procedures from my last job but they weren’t great and a lot of things don’t translate over.

        What do I like about events? Mostly the networking and meeting people. I also enjoy the strategy planning especially finding ways to get people in the room. I thought about a job in sales but I didn’t know how to suss out BD or sales jobs vs cold calling.

        1. Been In Events Before*

          It sounds like part of your frustration is that people think that your job is “easy” and not “valuable” which is certainly not the case. There are 1000 documents there because it’s needed. I’m not sure what type of company you work for, but would it make sense to transition to an event planning company vs being in an events division at like a non-profit or law firm, etc.? I would also look into conference or meeting planning, if either of those sound interesting to you.

          To transition into biz dev, I would look into biz dev at event planning companies so that you are selling the same services to clients that you find valuable, and they would value your event planning experience because you “get” what they do.

          1. Sunflower*

            You definitely hit the nail on the head with my frustration. I’m currently in consulting (I came from BigLaw) and interviewed at a few event planning companies but some friends in PR urged me to stay away from ‘agencies’. Thanks for the advice on some BD opportunities too!

            1. Been In Events Before*

              There is so much “politicking” around and bureaucracy involved in agencies so they aren’t wrong. However, most agencies have policies and procedures in place, even if they aren’t the most efficient. Also, be prepared to have no work/life balance.

              You will have to account for your “hours” in ways that you may not have to account for in consulting or BigLaw. Clients come and go – you may work on a one-off event for one client and never work with them again. The way that proposals are written in agencies are that the costs are based on the number of hours estimated per person.

              For example:
              Client A’s 2019 Summer Launch
              100 hours x Event Coordinator/hr cost = $Y
              90 hours x Manager/hr cost = $Z

              And if you go over the 90 hours as a manager, the company is essentially “losing money” on this project and you will have to explain to management why you are spending more time than anticipated. You also have to do things like “forecast out” hours your team is spending on each project.

              You will also be expected to:
              – “Promote yourself” within the agency – make sure higher ups know how you are valuable. It is not good enough just to go exceptional work. Nobody will notice if you don’t say anything.
              – Share industry trends, such as emailing out articles of interest from industry magazines
              – Participate in/plan company-wide events such as company happy hours, a party celebrating a “made up holiday” such as Taco Day or whatever else on top of your current duties no matter how much work is already on your plate.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          “the consensus is that the events should be super easy to execute”
          What the what? Like NO event is ever “super easy” to execute. Like ever! WTF!

          There are so many detailed things that go into them, from scheduling to shipping, and if they’re big events = big budgets. Booth design, social media… and on and on. I’m lucky in that I only have 2 a year, but I put a lot of work into those, aside from my other communications duties. If I had more shows or larger complex booths, I’d definitely have to bring in an agency.

          Google some of the booth manufacturers. I recall some had a webinar and planning deck that went over some common procedures and steps to event planning. It might give you a start. Some of the large shows I’ve exhibited at also had training on ‘how to exhibit’ and they were free to view/download.

          As for staying in the event planning business, you might want to think about a business development role if you’re more interested in sales, or a social media or demand generation role if you’re interested in the marketing side of events.

        3. Lizlicious*

          Sunflower, have you looked into account management roles? It’s within the world of sales but the focus is on building relationships with existing clients (vs “hunter” roles that are heavy on cold calling). Might be a good match for your interests and skills!

    2. Weegie*

      I think you’ve already put your finger on the heart of the issue – burnout!

      The feelings and ‘symptoms’ you describe are exactly what I experienced when I started the job I’m in now. I was suffering the after-effects of my previous awful job, and it took about six months to re-motivate myself. Even now, one year on, there are days I don’t do much if I don’t have a looming deadline. But I feel a lot happier overall, and once I do actually buckle down, I do good work.

      Give it some time, and don’t be too hard on yourself. Once you’ve had a few months of breathing space, you can start exploring whether other avenues would suit you better.

      Above all, breathe :-)

      1. Sleepy puppy*

        This. I started my current job 2 years ago and the first 6 months were a blur. I knew my previous job had been problematic but didn’t realize how toxic it had been until I was out. I spent a good chunk of time processing that. Add in some personal health challenges and, well, I was shocked to get a glowing evaluation. Be kind to yourself.

        1. Rezia*

          This. Got an amazing job after serious burnout at my last job, and it took a while to build back into my usual motivation/hard work at the new job. Take care of yourself for now.

      2. EinJungerLudendorff*

        This.
        OP, you spent a long time getting mentally, physically and emotionally ground down at your old job, then jumped to a new job with what seems like little to no break. Then you found yourself in a challenging position with a lot of pressure and some daunting tasks, for which you don’t think you are properly equipped to handle.
        And you also found that a number of big stress sources from the old job also applied to the new one.
        Oh, and you’re not even sure if you like most of your job. And you may or may not be suffering from a depression.

        Of course you’re not going to be bursting with energy and enthusiasm! You’re still in the fallout from your old job, and you already have plenty of issues in the new one! Why wouldn’t you feel unmotivated right now?

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I work in events and while I have a job I love, I often feel this way after a really busy or stressful period. It’s definitely burnout and partly impostor syndrome. Think back to the processes you executed before – what did you like about them? What worked well and what did you always wish you could change? Implement what you know and adjust to your personal style, and remember that there was nothing in place before so no matter what you start implementing, it will be better than how it was. Allow yourself the room to make mistakes in a new job and improve upon things bit by bit. Good luck!

    4. knitter*

      So I’m just now coming out of a period of depression and one of the mistakes I made during this period was not believing that I was depressed (there has been a lot going on at work and with my daughter’s health that I attributed the feelings to, but I think most of the negative thoughts were provided by my brain all on its own). The thoughts you are having, like feeling unqualified, could be caused by your depression, so believe your therapist. I had similar thoughts and my current self wishes I had just done the work that I was stressed about.

      Because these cycles aren’t new to me, so I try to do a few things. Doing the below made this last cycle not as bad as it has been in the past.
      1. positive self talk: I remind myself of all the positive feedback I’ve received and think through how my work place deals with performance issues. This latter point is important when I don’t want to try something because I assume I’m going to fail. I think through what will ACTUALLY happen when I put a project together. I’ll get feed back a long the way and we’ll try things out and adjust them as we go.
      2. break assignments down in to very, very small chunks and set very, very small goals. So if my brain is setting me up for failure by thinking something has to be done perfectly and quickly, I’ll reset and just focus on one tiny part of the project and make myself sit in the happiness that that part was completed.
      3. Frequent communication with co-workers and supervisors. Not for reassurance, but I take time trying to figure out what is the rational anxiety I’m having and how to frame a productive question or statement of concern around it.

      Also, instead of thinking about what field you might be more interested in (ie work) during your free time, focus on what brings you joy. I go to my knitting circle and scour the family friendly events in my city to pick something I’ve never done before. Feeling joy in my off times makes me more resilient when I’m exposed to my triggers (ie work stress and daughter’s doctor’s appointments).

      Good luck!

    6. The Other Dawn*

      If I’m honest with myself, I’m feeling the same way. I started this job a couple months ago; however, I wasn’t looking for a new job by choice–my company was acquired and I lost my job. I really had no desire to go back into this industry, but the job search didn’t pan out the way I’d hoped and rather than risk a very long job search, I took this job in the same industry. I came into it excited about the fact that I would be kind of a change agent as well as being the department manager, but not excited about the job in general, if that makes sense. I cried like crazy the weekend before I started, mainly because I didn’t want to go back to work so soon, didn’t want to be in this industry anymore, and just unhappy that I had no choice about having to find another job.

      Two months in, I like the people, the culture and the company overall. The job, meh. There’s just SO much. The amount of email, all the different tasks that have to be done, managing a challenging employee, learning how things are done here (I know, that’s common), and dealing with the fact that some things that are done here are completely different that at previous companies and there has never been any comments by examiners or auditors (basically, it’s very obvious that the regulatory body tells some companies one thing and others something different, and auditors and examiners treat companies differently, which is very confusing and taking up a huge amount of mental energy–I’m spinning my wheels A LOT). It amazes me that I have no daily tasks, yet I’m always busy and feel like I’ve been beat up at the end of the day. Also, the company is VERY conservative from a risk perspective, which means that my department is twice the size of the one at my former company, and the company itself is 1/3 of the size of the previous one. That’s how much work there is because the former manager, and others here, are conservative, and that stems from being advised by a conservative consultant.

      UGH, sorry for the rant! But yeah, I’m feeling unmotivated and just blah. Even though it’s only been two months and I’ve done all this work before, I still feel overwhelmed and like I’m pushing a heavy boulder uphill most days. I also feel burned out from the industry itself.

    7. Smile-a-thon*

      Lists.

      Make lists as to what you’d like to accomplish in the first three months, what steps need to happen to make those accomplishments happen.

      And at the end of every day, reflect on what you did to move forward. Include any new people/networking that happened, etc.

      Measure the tiny steps forward and give yourself congratulations. Even a quiet, ‘way to go, me’ (which may someday grow to a fist-pumping ‘yeah!’ )

    8. Frankie*

      Yes–in a previous burnout situation, it took me months into my new (great) job to feel back to my old, productive, motivated self.

      I would definitely give yourself some time–burnout can take a long time to work itself out, and it might not be about the current job.

      Depression would be normal as a direct result of previous burnout, too.

      My current job requires a lot of independent thinking, coming up with new processes, etc., and when I was feeling unmotivated plus anxious about that level of autonomy and coming up with blanks, I would try to read research related to whatever project it was, and inevitably I’d get some ideas from that and get excited and feel like I had some structure to work with again. I don’t know if there’s a parallel for event planning, exactly. I’m also really motivated by lists, so I would try to throw down even some very basic stuff in a work plan and build from there. Like, I know no matter what these five simple things have to be part of this project, and simply writing them down would help as a starting point. Anything to get away from that feeling of starting from scratch. I also have a great manager so it’s easy to say, “here’s what I’ve come up with, what am I missing?” and he’ll have some really good ideas I hadn’t thought of. After a couple of years I feel way more confident that whatever I come up with will for the most part cover the bases.

      If you still feel like this after a year in the job or so, might be time to reassess whether you’re just done with event planning. But this sounds really familiar to me and it was really all about the previous burnout, in my situation.

    9. zora*

      Yeah, you’re still burned out. 5 weeks don’t fix serious burnout, it will be a few months before you get back to normal. Everyone above has great tips, take care of yourself and give yourself some time!

    10. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

      I cannot tell you how comforting this post is. I’m in exactly the same boat and just can’t seem to find my mojo (and it is definitely not going unnoticed by my manager!).

      Not so much relevant to the motivation thing but for reference, I was in events (freelance wedding planner for 10 years) and am now in an account manager role. I changed careers because I really needed a change but the transition role I took before being with the amazing company I’m with now was toxic AF and really left its mark (burnout and depression).

      What I am trying to do to find my rhythm (and I’ll report back on my success!) is:
      – Be really honest with my manager about my journey to date, the toxic past environment and the knock on effect/what I need from her right now.
      – Check in with her as often as possible to get feedback. I specifically asked her to ‘big up’ the things I’m doing well alongside the developmental feedback so I can combat imposter syndrome
      – Set reminders for myself in Outlook daily to nudge my development areas (e.g. ahead of a client meeting, a reminder to do X or rein in Y)
      – Use a CBT cheat sheet daily to help the catastrophising that my brain does (1 mistake does not mean I’m gonna get fired).
      – Write long to do lists for the week, but then much shorter (really achievable) ones with the priority tasks each day
      – Interact with my colleagues at lunch, but actually sit a bit apart for periods of time to get things done (and keep me away from any office politics/drama)
      – Listen to guided meditations to fall asleep to so I don’t let depressive sundowning take hold
      – Do the best I can around eating well/exercise/being in nature/seeing friends (I am not great at all this!)

      I’d love to keep in touch on this. I’m really struggling with knowing that I have skills to bring to this brilliant company but not seeming to able to tap into them.

  5. Seifer*

    Is it weird to never talk about your personal life at work? My roommate will not talk about anything, to the point where his coworkers didn’t even know that we had moved. But the issue now is that my roommate is looking to change jobs and his biggest freak out is that the new people will ask him personal questions that he’ll be evasive about and he’ll immediately get a reputation for being frigid or that he’s hiding something. I asked him for an example of a personal question and he said, “‘where do you live?’ I don’t need them to know that about me!”

    Personally, I think he’s taking it way too far. And if he’s worried about people thinking that he’s frigid or hiding something… well. You can’t have it both ways. But what does everyone else think?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      I’m in the same boat as your roommate! I’m pretty introverted and private, and I’ve definitely had a hard time striking a balance between maintaining my privacy without coming across as secretive.

      1. LaurenB*

        Introverted and private have nothing to do with one another. One could easily be introverted, but also be just fine sharing details of one’s life / family with coworkers.

    2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      Is your roommate Rosa from B99?

      On a more serious note, I think your roommate needs to learn the are of closing the social circuit without really saying anything personal if they don’t want to. Most people are only asking to be polite, if he evades the questions that’s a lot more suspicious then just saying that he lives down the road/over the train tracks or something else benign.

      1. Seifer*

        Ahaha no, I’m Rosa with a side of Amy. He’s Captain Holt.

        Yeah, I’ve tried to tell him that. Vague answers are okay, but straight up like. I don’t live anywhere, how about that weather??? Is weird. “Oh, not too far, it’s like a twenty minute drive” is what people are looking for. But then he thinks that someone will start pulling up Google Maps and pointing. That’s… usually when I tell him he needs to chill, he’s met other people before and no one has ever done that.

          1. Seifer*

            I have tried that with him before, the talking through the anxiety response trick. It’s something my last therapist had me try to manage my anxiety disorder, however, it does not work for either of us.

        2. Gelliebean*

          Yep, that’s exactly right. In my experience it’s usually just an opening to commiserate about traffic routes/congestion/etc. as something that pretty much anyone can empathize with. They’re just keeping a casual conversation going, and I’d say it wouldn’t hit a sensitive nerve with most people.

          Now if someone did answer that question with their street address, or directions any more than “down south by X town” or “East side of the interstate” I’d be surprised and feel like they were not in line with social conventions.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Seriously. Nobody wants the address, they’re looking for “North side, you?”

        3. Zennish*

          It would be hard to find someone more private than I am, who isn’t in witness protection. (I’ve been tempted to quit more than once over my workplace’s campaign to have every employee constantly on some social media somethingorother.) Still, if I’m asked where I live, I just say “Oh, outside of NearestBigCity. Nobody is going to Google Map the 4 million households in that area and try to find mine. There is anonymity in normalcy. If you start giving everyone the scary-eye and the “Why do you want to know where I live?” you’ll draw way more attention to yourself, and in a negative way.

        4. Sunglasses Emoji*

          I am literally in an address protection program run by the government. (I was a crime victim.) So I do not give my address or approximate location to anyone. “Oh, not too far, it’s like a twenty minute drive” +Subject Change almost NEVER successfully closes the social circuit for me. People press for details – ok, but a drive in what direction?? Are you actually in (city) or are you in (nearby suburb)?? What highway do you take to get here?? etc etc. I find that in order to close the social loop without being branded a “weirdo” I sometimes have to straight-up lie. I am okay with this because A) it’s for my safety and B) rude questions get rude answers. YMMV.

          People do not know how to mind their own business. It never occurs to anyone that there could be a logical reason for not sharing one’s address. Sure, my situation sounds serious than usual, but this program protects thousands of people just in my state. And there are thousands upon thousands more victims of domestic violence, stalking, etc. who do not want to tell people where they live. It’s so frustrating how stigmatized it is to be private about that.

    3. WellRed*

      I think it draws more attention to oneself to be so rigid about never ever ever answering basic personal questions.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I completely agree with this. I keep pretty strong lines between my personal and professional lives/personae, but I engage in small talk and that involves some personal stuff. The key is that I don’t share everything, and what I do share comes up organically. I also have some stock “cover” questions that I deploy regularly. For example, when co-workers ask me if I have siblings, I give them a not-the-whole-truth response and they’re satisfied.

      2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Yes, and in the absence of information, people will make up stuff. And usually the stuff that’s made up is meaner and more outlandish than the truth. Sharing select information lets you control the narrative.

        Ex:
        Coworker: Do you have kids?
        Roommate: Why would you ask such a question? That’s my personal business!
        Whispering coworkers: He won’t talk about his kids but there’s a picture of one in his office. Maybe his wife left him and took the kids! Maybe he was an abusive husband and he doesn’t have visitation! Maybe he’s a deadbeat dad!
        Actual Truth: That’s my nephew in the photo and I do not have any kids.

    4. Bee's Knees*

      We don’t really talk about our personal lives where I work. It’s not that no one talks about their families or whatever at all, it just usually doesn’t come up. I also think your roomie might be focusing too much on the detail of the question. They’re probably not asking “What is your exact street address?” The neighborhood or part of town is likely all they want to know.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yup — generalization and redirect. When I was working in NYC I’d answer “out on Long Island, but I’m tired of the commute. Where do you live? How’s the trip?”

    5. rldk*

      As long as he can be friendly without sharing information, I think he’s alright. The issue isn’t “why do they need to know” but “how can i still answer the question without giving out info i don’t want known.”

      I’d recommend he work on vague answers to common questions, like “oh, i live in the northwest part of the city” or even a neighborhood. And he should reframe how he’s reacting to them. There’s prying, and there’s just taking a general interest in knowing someone as a human, not just a coworker. If he’d rather be known for his work, he’ll be undermining that by becoming known as ‘the weirdly-private one’

      1. Southern Yankee*

        Yes, vague answers to common questions that don’t reveal anything private but still keep the conversation moving along seems the best bet to avoid the hiding something label.

      2. Secretary*

        Friendly without sharing too much info is right! It’s not about sharing personal information, it’s about building good relationships. It will probably help if he practices small talk and answers that don’t sound weird to others. He will get way farther with “I live in X city, what about you?.” than with “Nowhere, where do you live?”

        Also, he shouldn’t use being introverted as an excuse, because social skills aren’t a personality type. Small talk, building relationships, making work friends are skills to be developed, not something people are born with.

    6. Hufflepuffin*

      It’s weird except among AAM commenters who seem to be more obsessively private than most people I’ve ever met.

      2. Kat in VA*

        After having a recruiter literally Google my home address and then attempt to use that information as a leveraging tool to offer me less salary*, I’m starting to understand why AAM commenters are more on the obsessive side about privacy.

        * her reasoning was, “You have a big beautiful house and property, obviously you’re not hurting for money, so we want to offer you a lower salary than previously discussed” or something along those lines. I was honestly too shocked and then furious to really pay attention. That phone call ended swiftly.

        1. Hufflepuffin*

          That really doesn’t correlate to being frosty with your colleagues though.

          1. Kat in VA*

            True, but it’s made me wary about talking about things like vacations or large purchases (such as a car) with coworkers, because they can and do judge you.

        2. Lilysparrow*

          And how would being bizarrely secretive help in a scenario like that? Are you going to apply for jobs under an assumed name?

          Do you think a person like that would have made a fantastic offer if they thought you lived in a row house? No. They lowballed you because they are cheap. The house had nothing to do with it.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Understood – that was the reason the recruiter gave, though.

            There’s no way to be secretive when you enter your home address, but for a recruiter to Google it and use it as leverage to offer me less money (her reasoning, not mine) was just…bizarre.

          2. Clisby*

            Oh, no, if she lived in a row house then obviously she can support herself on a lower salary.

      3. Mr. Shark*

        Exactly. I think it’s strange how AAM commenters don’t want to talk about their personal lives and don’t want to socialize with co-workers. I’m not saying you have to tell them everything, but these are people you work with 8-10 hours everyday. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be willing to share some of your personal life with them.
        As far as socializing–some of my best friends have come from people I have worked with. You don’t always have to go to every social work function, but it seems bizarre to me that so many people avoid it like the plague and would be completely unwilling to socialize with co-workers sometimes.

    7. dealing with dragons*

      for “where do you live” no one ever wants your physical address, usually just a general location. I’m in a big city so only naming the sub-city is fine. Like living in LA and telling people you live in Hollywood. my team lead is the same way and it honestly puts up a barrier. you don’t have to be friends but it doesn’t hurt to be friendly.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Yes. It’s just cocktail party conversation–you like your new Trader Joe’s even more than your last one, there are more dogs in your neighborhood, new apartment has its own washer and dryer so you’ve got THAT going for you. I always talk about the cute things the dog did, or I made a new recipe last night. Safe stuff, but friendly.

    8. KR*

      I think your roommate might benefit from being reminded that people aren’t nessecarily asking for exact details. Like when they ask “Where do you live?” he doesn’t have to give them the address or even what side of town he lives in. He could just say the general town, region, or even more vague, “Oh about 30 mins south.” People probably aren’t even paying attention that much to the answers he gives. They’re just making conversation and trying to connect – so if he were to say, “Oh I live in Town A” they might say, “Oh I visited the drive-in there once. It’s great.” and great, conversation over.
      I know you know this but I think he might benefit from a reminder that no one cares about his personal business as much as he does. He could even decide on a few details that are his go-to to share when people ask. He definitely can’t have it both ways.

      1. NewNewbie*

        I’ve given the vague “I live about 30 minutes south” answer before, and some people ask a zillion followup questions. They want to know the town, what landmarks/stores I live near, what roads I take to get home, etc. Some of them have been people who turned out to be creeps. Maybe the roommate has had the same issue where some people aren’t satisfied with vague answers.

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          I usually say suburb off of X Ave a little south of Hwy 47. My boss pressed for more details because Google satellite images was recently discovered and google stalking my neighborhood was the goal. I gave a golf course in the same general area and that sidetracked it with “Oh, I’ve played there. I like ____ better.” and a 20 minute golf monologue during which the request for my exact address was forgotten.

          I don’t even actually care if Boss knows where I live (I am 99.9% sure I wouldn’t get a drop in visit, ever), but on general principal, I don’t like giving out my exact address. I don’t even get mail there. Unless a co-worker and/or boss is invited to visit, they have no need for an address.

        2. Sunglasses Emoji*

          Same problem – it doesn’t close the social circuit effectively because too many people are nosy and rude. Have you found any way of fending off these questions without being branded a weirdo or having to lie?

          I am not willing to share more than “oh, about 20 min away”+SubjectChange because I have a stalker. (More in my comment above)

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just be vague, bro. Seriously.

      “Where do you live?”
      “In the city.” “Just south of here.” “Ah over in neighboring city.”

      Otherwise yes, he’s going to come across poorly and quickly be left alone but not necessarily in a good way.

      If I’m asking where you’re from, it’s not because I want to swing by and steal your stereo or something. It’s usually because I’m being chatty or worse case, I want to know if you are aware that the Corgi races are going on, etc.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It really should be a national holiday, tbh. Move over my lanky greyhound friends, the short belly dragging friends need to shine too.

          1. Anonysand*

            As an owner of two retired/rescued greyhounds, those lazy couch potatoes would love for their short-legged brethren to take over the reins for a little while!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Awwww smootches to them because I know that there’s a lot of abuse that goes on in the “sport”, I’m relieved that many are rescued and get to live out their golden years with loving family.

      2. Kat in VA*

        yes also to the corgi races.

        People here generally use the “Where do you live?” question as an inroad to commiserate about commute times. I’m the greater DC area, so they all suck, but some are more suckier than others (mine falls into the latter category).

    10. Karen from Finance*

      I don’t think it’s weird to never talk about your personal life, if it’s in the case where you just don’t bring it up yourself because you’re reserved. I do think it’s weird to be so freaked out about having to answer questions, like your roommate is. Like.. it’s fine.

      But then again, I also think you should respect his anxieties, because this is clearly not easy for him. Be easy on him. You won’t be able to convince him that “he’s wrong”.

      1. Seifer*

        Yeah, I just keep trying to tell him that it’s totally fine. No one that I’ve told, oh I live in that big tower by the train tracks has ever just been lounging in my room when I got home.

        I feel you on the anxiety thing, I have anxiety disorder and it’s difficult when our anxieties don’t line up. I’m mostly just making sure that hey, this… is just anxiety talking, right? I’m not supposed to also be paranoid about the fact that I have told 3 coworkers that I live in X Suburb?

        1. Karen from Finance*

          As a chronic oversharer who is yet to be attacked, nah, don’t worry about it. Unless you have an actual reason to believe anyone you’ve told is actually a dangerous person, which is a whole other issue, because then you’d be working at an actual unsafe environment. That’s why my mind went straight to anxiety – I think if your roommate was just reserved, his natural instinct would be the vague answers, but he sounds downright afraid, and in this case it’s not a very rational fear. So… yeah.

        2. LaurenB*

          Being worried about the fact that 3 coworkers know you live in X suburb seems like a sign that it would be worthwhile to check with a professional over having paranoid personality disorder.

    11. NewNewbie*

      Why doesn’t he like to answer personal questions?

      I don’t like being asked “Where do you live?” anymore because I’ve had to deal with a few harassers and creepy guys at work. I remember HR telling me “Where do you live” is a normal, friendly question that everyone asks everyone else, but when it’s in the context of being followed around, touched and also being asked “When does your shift end? Do you carpool? Who do you live with?” it gets scary.

      So I’ve been wondering how to answer “Where do you live?” now. I also don’t want to answer any questions about my relationship status or who I live with or when I get off from work (unless someone I actually work with needs to know when I’m leaving).

      I don’t mind talking about hobbies or what I did on the weekend in order to be friendly with people I like since those seem like “safe” topics. If I don’t know someone well then I give generic “Just binge-watched Netflix this weekend” or “I’m doing good, you?” answers.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Great point. When I was a kid my family got a lot of negative media attention and it’s an ingrained habit to be super private about everything now. It’s more complicated to explain why I don’t want to give that information away so I just use it as a way of filtering. If someone feels a pressing need to know where I live or who I live with and can’t get the hint to drop it, that’s probably not a person I want to interact with a lot anyway.

      2. Seifer*

        I have no idea. I generally like to think of myself as a private person and even I am not that hostile about personal questions. In response to “where do you live,” I usually answer along the lines of how long it takes for me to drive to work. “Like half an hour away so the commute isn’t too bad, how about you?”

        I feel the same way about weekend stuff and hobbies. My roommate will answer, “nothing, what about you?” and then freak out when people are like, “really, you did nothing??? Not even watch Netflix??” I’ll say that I went out walking, it was so nice out! And no one asks me anything else. Vague answers are okay! Non-answers cause prying!

        1. Ashley*

          It is a fine line. My husband is super private and is a lot like your roommate. He literally talks to three co-workers in an office of about 50. If you are trying to help you just have to coach him on some normal responses. Most people are just trying to be friendly with the new person.

        2. fposte*

          While I am not him, I have been close enough to that in my past to understand, I think. It’s not that I was stalked or anything–it was just that it felt like any piece of information somebody had about me lessened me somehow and gave them power over me.

          It’s not a logical response but an emotional one. So I think the information about how you’re more successful keeping boundaries if you don’t erect them so dramatically might resonate, because what he’s doing is actually counterproductive to what he wants.

          1. Pippa*

            This is a good point. And it might also be helpful to use the tactic of turning it into a minor “my little quirk” with some self-deprecation. In his place, if someone remarked on my extreme personal privacy, I’d probably go with “haha, yeah, I’m funny that way. On a totally unrelated subject, did you know that people in the Witness Protection Program aren’t allowed to tell anyone they’re in the Witness Protection Program?” *waggle eyebrows, leave the room*

        3. NewNewbie*

          I can see how saying you did nothing over the weekend wouldn’t go well. If he says “binged Netflix” or “read a book” people might then ask what he watched or read (which would be bad if he was lying to be vague), so if he wants to avoid further questions he could just mention boring stuff, like that he cleaned his car, cleaned out his fridge, caught up on laundry, etc.

        4. Lily Rowan*

          I’ve literally never had anyone follow up with me if I say “Oh, just the usual stuff, what about you?” But right — a nice walk, errands, played video games, just pick one thing and you’ll be fine.

          Which you know! I don’t know how to convince your roommate that he should just make up vague or non-responsive answers.

          1. Seifer*

            Haha I don’t know either. I was mostly like. Someone validate me and make me feel like I’m not being weird. So I’m good there. Sometimes I just end up giving him some major side-eye when he comes home and is like, this person asked me where I went to SCHOOL how DARE they.

      3. Lilysparrow*

        The thing is, people don’t go from “Hi new person” to Full Creeper in one step. There are stages where you have multiple opportunities to steer or leave the conversation. The thing is to learn to identify those stages and shut it down before it goes there.

        Treating all new co-workers as Shroedinger’s Creeper from the outset is going to cut you off from potential allies & helpful people more often than it will repel actual creepers.

      4. epi*

        I have had the same thing happen to me. I didn’t give my street address or anything, but at the time I had just moved quite near work. So I often gave the cross street, pretty normal in my city since it’s a grid, or mentioned that it is right near a particular landmark. People expect a little more detail about locations right nearby that they will recognize, I find. And at the time, being newly able to walk to work *was* my innocuous work chat topic.

        Well, someone in my office did start to show evidence of trying to follow me around campus and possibly to my home. They started checking up on my hours and interrogating me if I changed them (we didn’t work together and this person 100% didn’t need to know). They started asking if they could come to my home without ever having been invited to even see me outside of work, and when I said no, asked if they could take a break at my apartment if they happened to be running in my neighborhood! This person doesn’t even live in my city, and I don’t live near a a trail or other destination for runners.

        I agree this is usually a normal question and I answered it in good faith assuming this person was normal. When their follow-ups got super weird, the response I got from HR was similar, that this is normal information for coworkers to share. As for the intrusive follow up questions and requests that I pointed out, I might as well have been talking to myself. The response was either that the original question was normal, or that it was my choice to share.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      He can’t have it both ways. You are right.

      “I don’t need them to know that about me”, really? It’s not about needing to know something. It’s about connecting with people on a basic level.

      I am not sure if you are in a rural area or a populous area. But here in a rural area that kind of response would stand out like a sore thumb. And people would definitely comment. So yeah, he can do as he wishes but people will think he is odd, stand-offish and, perhaps, weird. Over a long period of time, they will probably conclude he is hiding something or he is a shamed of something.

      People do have enough sense to give people space. For the most part, when people ask where I live I find that if I just say the name of my town then they are satisfied with that. They do not press for further info. And usually they respond with why they are asking, “I though you might live there, do you know so-and-so?” Then we chat for a moment. It’s used as a conversation opener often enough that it would be good for your roommate to have a little more of a response than what he has now.

      1. wittyrepartee*

        In a populous area it’s even weirder. I can name almost my cross-streets and people still couldn’t find me.

        1. Joielle*

          Ha, yes. I usually say “You know [popular restaurant]? I’m like two blocks from there.” And that still covers like 90 houses plus an apartment building.

    13. Ranon*

      It sounds like he needs a strategy that keeps him comfortable (because he’ll definitely come across as frigid if he’s also feeling uncomfortable) but also lets him interact with his coworkers in the getting to know you phase. Vague is a good approach, as is turning the question around. So, e.g. “Where do you live” “Oh, I live in (general neighborhood), what about you? [Answer] Oh, that’s (general positive impression about that person’s area of town), how’s your commute?” He can give a short answer and then mostly ask other people questions about themselves, they will feel like they’re bonding but he won’t need to share much.

    14. Lilysparrow*

      People don’t actually want or care about this information, most of the time. They are looking for topics to talk about.

      People learn more about each other from the conversation dynamics than from the information exchanged. So if he doesn’t want people to accurately learn that he is nervous and unusually freaked out by basic introductions, then he needs to craft and practice responses that he can use comfortably, and lead people into mutually interesting topics.

      Where do you live = what part of town, so they can possibly discuss good restaurants or landmarks, or local history, or aesthetics.

      Answering “On the Lower East Side” or whatever isn’t personal information. It’s narrowing down the universe of potential things to talk about to find some commonality.

      Nobody actually cares where you live or whether you have siblings, or what you did over the weekend. They just care if you’re pleasant to talk to and easy to get along with.

      1. londonedit*

        Definitely. Asking someone where they live is quite common in my experience, because people either live in London or they live outside the city and commute in, so it’s a natural conversation starter at work. But people don’t want details – it goes ‘I live in west London’. ‘Oh, nice – fairly easy commute for you then?’ ‘Yes, very – just one Tube line. I hate having to change!’ Or ‘Actually I live in Hertfordshire’ ‘Ooh, really? I bet it’s lovely out there – how long does it take you to get in?’ ‘Oh, it’s not so bad – less than an hour on the train and then I tend to walk to the office’. I’ve never had anyone pry into the details, and even if they did it’s easy to deflect with an answer that is polite and sociable but doesn’t give away information that you’re not comfortable with. ‘Yes, I’ve been out that way for about five years now – how about you? How’s your commute?’

        I don’t share a ton of personal information, but chatting about where you live and what your hobbies are is pretty normal, and people will find it surprising if you’re not willing to do it at all. No one expects every gory detail, but there’s no harm in sharing the odd bit about your personal life if someone asks. It’s easy to pick and choose what you share – ‘Oh, I’m going for a run on Saturday morning and probably then just hanging out with friends, you?’ is perfectly acceptable even though the real answer might be ‘I’m going for a run with my sister who is recovering from a long illness, then I’m going on a third date with a guy I’m really quite excited about, and then going over to see a friend who has just split up with her boyfriend and thinks she might be pregnant’.

    16. Anono-me*

      Your roommate needs to learn how to give boring useless socially acceptable answers. Can you practice with him a little bit? It should give him some scripts and some confidence so he doesn’t have to think of them on the spot.

      For example:
      1.
      Cw:Where do you live?
      Rm: I’m in an apartment on the south side of town.
      Cw: Me too. Where exactly on the south side of town?
      Rm: Not to far from the Llama Park. What about you?
      Cw: 123 Main St South.
      Rm: Darn, we are too far away to carpool. Hey did you hear that (very minor local drama that Rm is completely not interested in but can milk for hours of conversation with this coworker. )
      2.
      Cw: So are you married?
      Rm: No, haven’t found the right person yet. How about you? (Rm does NOT need to say how hard he is looking.)
      3.
      Cw: So where are you from?
      Rm: Oh, I grew up around here. (Or just say state name.)

      Roommate also might find it helpful to consider directing the conversation towards a favorite popular TV show or local sports team.

    17. Ethyl*

      If your roommate would find it useful to come at this from a scientific perspective, it could be helpful to point him towards some of the more linguistics-oriented writing on the topic of small talk. Googling “social function of speech” or “phatic communication” is a starting point, and here’s a good article that delves into it:

      https://www.vox.com/2015/7/7/8903123/small-talk

    18. Emilitron*

      He should really think about WHY he wants that privacy. It’s easy on his side to feel like they just don’t need to know, it won’t help them in any way, I don’t have to tell anybody if I don’t want to, not relevant, etc. It’s easy on the commenter side to say things like “they’re not trying to Google your address” and “people are just making conversation”. It seems like people are addressing the information-privacy and safety aspect of the anxiety, but for me it’s not that at all. I’m happy to tell anybody what town I live in, my university, where I grew up, etc – but I absolutely HATE questions about my media consumption. I will not answer “what’s your favorite X” type questions (band, book, movie, actor, TV, etc) and questions about what I did in the evenings or on weekends; I will sometimes volunteer info if it’s sufficiently mainstream (like that I’m a fan of Avengers and I went for Thai food last night). Anything else will put me on the edge of not-quite panic attacks, because I don’t want to explain the niche hobbies that I’m into, the very specific music I love that you are almost guaranteed to hate, etc. I think it’s a relic of growing up with weird parents in a tiny rural town and getting made fun of by my elementary-school classmates for (a) not knowing anything cool and (b) talking about things they’d never heard of. Old trauma means I’d get nervous saying I went out for sushi last night because I’d feel personally attacked if the person responded with “I don’t know how anybody can eat raw fish”. Lots of growth (hello, therapy!) and I can stop expecting the worst-case response and even reply to it with “nobody asked you to eat it” and eventually get over feeling judged. So anyway. I’m projecting, but I strongly suspect that he’s freaking out less about privacy and more about social anxiety, fear of them saying he’s doing it wrong.

    19. ZoeyF*

      It’s not weird to not volunteer anything when there’s a conversation around you but def weird when people ask outright. Esp when most people do that to try and be inclusive/ polite. Vague is totally fine ‘not too far’, ‘maybe 20 to 35 mins depending on traffic’, ‘west of here’ are all fine. If anyone asks more in depth than that, you can def push back with a ‘why are you asking’. But what happens if there is a legit reason someone asks something personal? Like ‘there’s a huge traffic pileup on road ABC and let me know if you will turn around and work from home or be late’. By admitting to working from home, being late, or not people would know if you live somewhere impacted by that road?

    20. Smile-a-thon*

      I think personal questions are code. Nobody really cares about your address, or what exactly you did for the weekend. They are either just making conversations, or trying to signal that they wish you well.

      You don’t have to go in detail, just answer in kind — “I’m in Andover county” or “Oh yeah, got outside this weekend to enjoy the sun – did you get to take advantage of the great weather?”

      And remember, if you feel like the questions are interrogations, always answer the question with a question. “I’m not that far away from the office, where do you live?” (or for rude questions “Why do you ask?”)

      1. Auntie Social*

        And it’s polite to flip the question—“i just cleaned out my pantry/detailed the car, what did you do?” Often when people ask, they really want to tell what THEY did.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          This is a really good point. They don’t want to know. They want to talk.

    21. Venus*

      I think it can be a problem to be paranoid about discussing anything personal. In my experience if someone is rigid in their personal life then it extends into their workplace. I have colleagues who are vague, as am I, but the result is that we talk about traffic and the weather rather than more personal details.

      There is a guy here who is obsessive about personal information (for example we are required to list Next of Kin before a trip, and he freaked out about it), and it extends into his professional interactions (he doesn’t want to share and is very difficult to work with). He pesters coworkers to support him when he gets in trouble, yet gets offended when we ask for details (although he probably doesn’t want to give details because he’s often the source of a problem).

      The irony is that he often asks people for personal details, so that he can criticize them. He asked me if my new apartment cost more than my last one (when I mentioned moving) and I said it did, at which point he grumbled about people in their 20s spending foolishly and being in debt forever. I gave him a raised eyebrow and then walked away so that I could laugh… he thinks I’m much younger than I am!!

      1. Lilysparrow*

        He does realize, right, that Next of Kin doesn’t mean you have to disclose details about your actual blood relatives?

        It means, “Who do we have your remains shipped to if the plane goes down?” Or “Who gets to make medical decisions if you get hit by a bus and wind up in a coma?”

        Nobody is interested in the state of your familial relationships. They just need your health care proxy & executor.

    22. Take Me Home!*

      I had an ex bf like that. Except he was worse, I couldn’t invite friends to his house because he didn’t know them and didn’t want them to know where he lived. In his defense he did work at the NSA, but low level analyst, not at the level of ‘someone has befriended me for a decade in hopes that I’d start dating ex bf and they could finally learn his address.’

      Most people talking to someone new casually will ask them questions. The point isn’t to find out your address (as someone pointed out, if you gave your address, people would find that weird), it’s to find a commonality you can talk about… starting with the most known thing (you probably have a living vessel somewhere commutable from our current location). So roommate can come up with scripts like “Oh I just moved and I finally have space for my woodworking!” or “I unfortunately moved away from this area with a great dog park for Duckie, my chihuahua mix.” This will come off as really warm, if they don’t want to talk about the woodworking or the dog, it leads into an easy “what do you like to do with your spare time?” Another option is to stay on the topic of living and say something like “Oh, about 30 min south on a good day, since the traffic is always so bad, though, it takes me an hour to get in most days, totally ridiculous!” or “Oh, I live about a mile that way, which is great because I can walk in” and then ask them about their commute.

      I think he will find it difficult to take the path of no socializing, and it will come off as frigid. And that might have professional ramifications depending on the field (I have a science background and people there are more forgiving of social ineptitude). His best bet is to practice exchanging social niceties and come up with vague but true nonanswers and then ask people about themselves.

    23. LunaLena*

      You should tell him to be like Fujin and just give one-word answers: “Did you do anything fun this weekend?” “FUN. SLEEP.” Do that enough times and people will just stop asking. Problem solved! :D

      Just kidding, mostly just wanted to respond because I loved FF8 and can’t resist making references to it. But I agree with the rest of the advice here, just vague answers like “I live on the west side of town” or “I was tired so I slept a lot” are usually good enough. I’m a pretty private person myself, so for me it helps to have a mental line drawn about stuff I’ll talk about and stuff I won’t. Like, I’ll talk to my co-workers all day about what video games I played or what cute thing my cat did, but personal issues (like medical problems) are off-limits. As long as I stick to the topics I know in my mind are safe, I’m fine with casual conversation and don’t feel like anyone is prying (and I say this as someone who is sensitive to giving out personal info because I was aggressively stalked by an ex years ago).

      1. NewNewbie*

        In college I definitely gave the “I caught up on sleep!” or “slept in until noon” types answers to inquires about my weekend sometimes. And it was true. :)

    24. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I get that he’s worried that he’ll be seen as hiding something… but that’s because he is hiding something! So he’s worried that he’ll be perceived as doing something that he is actually doing and which is 100% within his control to change.

      I dunno, I yo-yo between being an oversharer and being paranoid about privacy, but even I know how to talk about basic stuff like where I live or where I graduated from without getting too in-depth.

    25. montescristo1985*

      The easiest way for him to deal with this is for him to ask them the questions. People love to talk about themselves. Then you get the reputation for being a good listener, instead of weirdly secretive.

    26. iglwif*

      I tend to treat “where do you live?” as more like “whereabouts do you live?” Nobody wants your address; they’re looking to have some idea of how far away from the office you are, what area of the city you’re in, maybe if you’re a potential carpooling prospect (if there are people in your workplace who drive there), that kind of thing. It’s for general conversation purposes, not for stalking. (A stalker wouldn’t ask you directly, they’d find out the info by sneaking into the HR files or something.) (I mean, I assume lol)

      The only information I’ve ever seriously tried to conceal from co-workers for any length of time is medical stuff, and OMG when you don’t tell people things and they start to notice something’s off, THEY MAKE S*** UP. And it’s always, always weirder and worse than the reality.

    27. Former Retail Manager*

      Yeah…your roommate is taking it too far and he also probably thinks that people want more specific answers than they really do. Where do you live? Oh, near downtown…it’s great…lots of events are always going on. Or, oh I live about an hour away…the commute can be rough. I do think his current reactions make him appear frigid and like he is hiding something. He just needs to learn to be pleasant and make polite conversation without revealing anything too private. If he can’t get a grip on this now (I’m assuming he’s young-ish) this is really going to be a detriment at some point unless he’s in a highly technical field where quirkiness is accepted or he works mostly alone with no real need for interaction. His co-workers aren’t trying to stalk him on the weekends. They’re probably just trying to suss out if he’s an okay guy to talk about TV shows and sports with.

      If you want to help him, I’d really try to practice some scenarios with him so he’ll have a repertoire of potential responses at the ready when someone asks how his weekend was/where he lives/holiday plans, etc.

    28. LGC*

      To answer your direct question: One of my old bosses got married and went on a honeymoon and none of his coworkers knew until he came back. (I was his direct report at the time, so I only found out after I got promoted and I talked to the vocational counselor.) So it’s not that weird. But, as a lot of other people pointed out…it is “weird” that he’s having such an exaggerated reaction to any sort of personal question! I have a feeling he is hiding something – because it sounds like more than just anxiety behind it.

      Further, as many other people have noted, the real problem here is that he is…misunderstanding what people mean. I mean this seriously – does he take other things literally and expect full detail? Like, if you ask him, “how was your day?,” does he expect that he has to give a detailed account of what happened? So I think that…intellectualizing the panic he feels isn’t addressing the issue, because he’s having a logical response to an unreasonable understanding.

      This might be something that he needs to work out with his therapist eventually, but – yeah – in the meantime, he should remind himself that he just needs to be general (and stick with that!) Many other people have given good scripts to deal with it, so I won’t repeat them here, but – yeah – town or general area is fine. I won’t even give my exact town name a lot of the time, but that’s because I live in a small town and most people I work with wouldn’t know where it was.

  6. China Beech*

    Resume question – relevant experience: A few years ago I left my job in government in order to possibly switch to the nonprofit sector. For three years I worked part-time (retail) while volunteering for the non-profit at which I thought I wanted to work. The non-profit was not a good fit for me (although I was good at and enjoyed the work) and I returned to the government last year. I am working on a new resume and need some advice. I want to include only jobs relevant to my current sector, but if I do that then I have a gap of almost 3 years even though I was working in another industry. I got my current job without a resume because it’s the type of job that requires one to list every job, every residence, every detail since birth. Now there are some industry-related jobs I am interested in and would like to have a great resume. How do reflect that I was working during those three years without the jobs appearing as irrelevant or extraneous? Thank you much for your assistance!

    1. WellRed*

      I think it’s more important to show that you were actually employed, rather than having such a large gap to explain.

      1. China Beech*

        Totally agree; I was also curious if anyone had ever added that type of work experience elsewhere on the resume? If not, I will just add it in the traditional chrono. format. Thanks!

    2. Ms. Meow*

      For some jobs I’ve set up my resume with “Relevant Experience” and “Other Experience” sections. I’d put both the retail and the non-profit volunteering work in the Other section with the concurrent dates. Hopefully, any good hiring manger and/or interviewer should be able to pick up what you did, and if not they will ask good questions about it. Just make sure if they question it that you answer clearly and try not to seem defensive. Everyone’s lives take different turns than we originally expected.

      1. China Beech*

        Ms. Meow, I LOVE THIS, thanks! It’s elegant and functional. And you are right, I never planned to walk away from my career, as I had worked toward it and planned for it my entire life. I just accomplished all I could there and fell out of love with it (and it was extremely high stress to boot). Thank you very much and I hope you have a lovely weekend!

        1. Ms. Meow*

          I’m glad I could help! I also what it’s like to set up your career for one specific path and then it just… doesn’t work out. I wish you all the best in your job search!

        2. Southern Yankee*

          I also like this idea. I would definitely mention the reasons for the gap in your cover letter. That should take it from “what’s with this gap” to “ok, makes sense”.

          1. China Beech*

            100%! Even with the Other Experience section, the reader is going to see the gap first, and hopefully keep skimming to the next section. If it’s in my cover letter (and they actually read it) they will be on the look out for that. Thanks much for the responses!

      2. KAG*

        I’m concerned about how difficult my chronological resume is to read right now, because my timeline naturally lends itself to several sections: Education, Experience, Other Experience, Volunteer, Research and Publications. It seems as though it would be difficult to quickly get an idea of my timeline professionally when the dates are jumping around from section to section.

        Case in point – a recruiter recently asked me about why I left my summer MBA internship. This was effectively a “cold call” on the recruiter’s part, so I’m not putting *as* much weight on it, but it concerned me: I do have *real* resume gaps that I need to explain, and on top of that, I don’t want to have to justify my leaving my internship after three months because it was scheduled to end in time for me to go back to school.

        How have people handled this in the past? Particularly with the nebulous “Research / Publications” when those were independently performed (a lot of the Volunteer stuff, too, come to think of it)?

      3. WJan*

        This. I used “Relevant Work Experience” and I think just the heading makes it clear enough that it’s not my entire work experience, just what’s relevant for the job I’m applying for. It seems like most of the time you also have to fill out a work history form of some sort, too, so I include my whole history there.

    3. Clorinda*

      It’s probably better to have the non-industry job and the volunteering on the resume rather than a three-year gap. If anyone questions it, the explanation you gave here is perfectly reasonable: you tried it, it wasn’t for you, so now you’re doing this.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          If it’s in the middle of your experience, I don’t know that you need to get into it in the cover letter but be ready to talk about it in the interview.

          1. China Beech*

            Thanks much! I’ll play around with a couple of options and formats and see where I am at. Just the suggestion from Ms. Meow and all the kind replies has put my mind at ease! have a great weekend!

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I leave everything chronological, but only list company, title, and dates on irrelevant jobs. No need to get into accomplishments or details of the role if it’s not applicable.

  7. Lucette Kensack*

    Is it reasonable to be annoyed by this?

    (tl;dr: To avoid paying taxes on employee parking, our organization created a reserved parking spot for our CEO by hanging a “No Parking, Tow Away Zone” sign instead of a “Reserved Parking” sign.)

    Details:

    I work for a large nonprofit that owns its own office building and parking garage. Last year’s tax reform included a change that makes expenses related to employee parking taxable (previously those expenses were deductible).

    Our parking garage is open to the public (we have a large event space in our building, so it’s used extensively by non-employees), so our lawyers determined that our parking spaces are not “employee parking” and as such are not taxable… except one: the reserved spot for our CEO.

    The solution? They removed the “Parking Reserved for [CEO]” sign and put in a “No Parking, Tow Away Zone” sign on the spot… which our CEO still parks in daily.

    Shady. I don’t care that the CEO has a reserved parking spot (there is abundant parking for everyone, and it makes sense to give her a close-by spot so she doesn’t waste time looking for a spot). But I’m troubled that multiple people at our organization – the CEO, the controller, the facilities head, etc. – all signed off on what is essentially a (very minor) tax dodge. Like, if we want the parking spot we should accept that we live in a society and pay our damn taxes.

    … or am I overreacting?

    1. WellRed*

      Your company is ridiculous. How much $ are they talking about? I live in a city where parking is at a premium which may be coloring my view of this.

      1. Cat Fan*

        You’re right. I’d love to know what the actual tax savings are for one parking spot. What masterminds!

        1. China Beech*

          He IS parked in a clearly marked spot that says no parking, tow away zone…..! #justified ;)

      2. Take Me Home!*

        This is what my first thought was. And then write about it in the petty thread.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      While not a hill I would die on, it would alert me to be watchful for larger signs of corruption. Granted this might be a one-off but I’d be wary.

      3. CM*

        +1

        It’s a bad sign that their response to a law/regulation they don’t want to follow is “How can we cheat our way out of it?” What else will they cheat their way out of?

    6. Auburn*

      It’s unethical. Likely pretty small potatoes overall. But If you feel like it represents a larger indifference to legal or ethical standards that’s worth noting. Especially for the CEO of a nonprofit. It’s possible that one person had a stupid idea to fix a problem they didn’t explain very well so no one questioned it. The new law is pretty confusing in how it’s worded and it took a little while to get clarification on the formula to use for calculating it so I could see someone just not really understanding it or understanding what was being suggested to them.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I’m with you. Taxes should be for the benefit for city and the people there, and people and organizations need to just pay them and not do such a shady tax dodge.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      JFC, the taxes on ONE PARKING SPOT cannot be that high, that’s such a minor thing to dodge it makes me think about what less petty things they do to get out of taxes. It’s a non-profit, so I’m well aware they’re trying to keep costs low but if the CEO really feels so important that they need to save their sliver of time looking for parking and having a reserved spot, they need to pay the fee associated with it. They’re certainly shady and they are probably cooking the books other places and I would be leery of their practices.

      If I saw some dillweed parked in the tow-away zone, I’d think poorly of them. Then if I found out it was a CEO of some organization, I’d never donate or use those services honestly.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        For me, it’s seeing the car parked in a tow-away zone that never gets towed. If I’m using that parking lot frequently, I’m going to believe that I can do whatever I please because no one’s watching, and that other similar activities might not be policed either. This sure wouldn’t make me feel like they have decent security, or possibly even TP in the ladies room.

        If I’m their “public”, I’m not impressed.

    10. boredatwork*

      This is a stupid rule that will likely have guidance issued to better interpret the law. The amount of logistical headache to calculate the value of that singular spot makes me side with the non-profit.

      I’m not well versed in non-profit accounting, but I can’t even see how this would generate a tax bill for the federal government, if accounted for correctly.

    11. Psyche*

      I would be extremely troubled that they are willing to do something blatantly illegal to save what is likely a negligible amount. It says very bad things about their ethics. What are they willing to do that is more subtle or to save even larger amounts?

      1. Auntie Social*

        Exactly—if local news found out then the IRS would find out, subject the whole org to an audit, etc. Nothing is worth looking bad to the public.

      2. auburn*

        This may be about dodging paperwork rather than taxes. This law was a real pain in the ass for nonprofits who aren’t used to having any “unreleted business income”. Biggest cost to us was $ in consultations with our CPA firm and staff time, not taxes. I’m hoping this is one that will get eliminated at some point soon. Nevermind that it’s just weird AF that an expense is considered non-business related taxable income for nonprofits. I understand that it’s how they felt they could make it more “fair” to for-profit business who now can’t deduct this expense but frankly, It’s a bit of headscratcher and the burden on nonprofits to figure it all out without any guidance early on was particularly frustrating.

        1. Psyche*

          Being unwilling to do the paperwork rather than unwilling to pay taxes doesn’t really make it better. If it is really that hard, let the CEO drive around for parking. That is legal AND avoids the paperwork. Otherwise they should either figure it out or keep the reserved sign and risk being dinged by fines.

  8. Bee's Knees*

    I have now injured/poisoned two people with the candy tub in my office. The first person was eating cinnamon candies, and wondering why they had sores in their mouth. A week in, they remembered they were allergic to cinnamon. And there’s these gross taffy like things in there, I didn’t think anyone actually ate them. One of the managers did. And then heard/felt a crunch. Pulled out the candy, and the crown came with it. So that’s fun.

    Our quality manager got in a fight with a stapler. The stapler won.

    And earlier this week, someone did drugs in one of the bathrooms. We don’t even know what it is. Someone brought what I’m assuming is a crack pipe to the office after they found it, and I got to call the cops. I had drugs on my desk.

    1. Jamie*

      You are clearly a threat to those around you, so you should be sent home early on Friday to get a headstart on your weekend and learn your lesson!

      3. Bee's Knees*

        I wish. I’d have to do something worse though, I have meetings scheduled (by someone who shall remain nameless and glared at) from three until five.

    2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      My boss mixes those new spicy Starbursts in with regular Starbursts in our required desk candy jars. She does it specifically to burn the mouths of residents, and is especially delighted if kids pull them.

      I want to ask how one fights a stapler, but I don’t think the answer will be pleasant…

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I’m not really sure. I just heard shuffling and then cussing, and then him attempting to open the first aid cabinet with one hand, and when I went out, there were papers everywhere with… evidence on them. He got a sharps container of his very own for those, and I showed him how one uses the automatic stapler properly. And told him that the copy machine will do that job for him.

        And your boss is evil. But you know that.

          1. IrisEyes*

            Right?

            I did this once as an object lesson for a group of kids who like to have “challenges” to see who can deal with spicy or sour candy best.

            That type of petty yet possibly sociopathic stunt is totally on brand for Hellmouth boss.

            1. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

              I didn’t know Cruella de Vil had gone into property management.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Annnnd that’s the Hellmouth’s boss who makes me glad I work for my crazypants corporate overlord.

        3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Oh, I work in the office of an apartment community. Anyone with a desk is required to have one out, and there are also several scattered throughout the office. It’s supposed to make residents and prospective residents find the place welcoming.

          My boss has also required that fruit infused “spa water” be put our daily. The spa water probably IS going to make someone sick… she doesn’t clean the fruit before cutting it up, and she doesn’t let us change it out daily. Barf city. I try not to mention it to people who come in, but she likes to force glasses of it onto people.

          1. No Green No Haze*

            “she doesn’t clean the fruit before cutting it up, and she doesn’t let us change it out daily.

            Oh. Oh God.

    3. Not So Super-visor*

      the toxic candy dish is cracking me up. put an “eat at your own risk” sign up!

          1. SignalLost*

            Go to the dollar store. Buy a nice bowl and a shark toy. Hot glue.

            I did this last Halloween with their spiderweb bowls and squeaky rats (per an Epbot tutorial) for a club event. Worked great!

  9. Jack Be Nimble*

    I’ve had a rash of applicants trying to come into the office to apply in person or talk to hiring managers ahead of interviews. The most egregious was a student who hid in the bathroom for over an hour after their class toured our offices, waiting for her chance to slip out and introduce herself around. They’ve all gotten a crash course in boundaries from myself or a coworker, but what the hell.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Sounds like something a local university might be pushing in their career center. Might be worth it to ask the people where they are hearing this is the right way to do things.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        Next time, I’ll have to ask where they heard it and be a bit gentler in telling them it’s a bad call. We had a really pushy/creepy applicant try to sneak in a while back, and I’m still jumpy, so I tend to shut them down harder than I mean to.

        1. MuseumChick*

          Of for sure! That sounds so creepy. What makes me think it’s a university career center is that it suddenly happening with a large group. Are the people doing this college age?

          I also think while you do not owe it to them in the slightest it would be a real kindness to tell them “Look, whoever gave you this advise is 100% wrong.”

          1. Jack Be Nimble*

            They’ve all been young, but mostly not university-aged. Of the most recent three, one was an undergrad looking for an internship and one was a recent-ish grad. The bathroom hider was in her mid-twenties and in an MBA program–even if she had limited workplace experience, I’d hope that a graduate program would be offering better guidance!

      2. Rainy*

        I actually work in higher ed career advising, and we 100% do not EVER tell people to do this kind of thing. Most of this kind of “advice” is coming from students’ parents and grandparents–I know, because they’ll come in and ask “Should I do [hideous boundary violation]?” and I say “What? God, no! Who told you to do this?” and it’s almost always either an older family member or else something they heard through the student grapevine worked one time so they try it.

        1. Amyiriel*

          Yep, my parents keep insisting that I need to do that kind of stuff, especially my dad…even though he has been working state and county government jobs for almost 30 years.

          1. Rainy*

            I have clients pretty regularly reach out to ask if their parents’ advice is actually good, and most of the time it’s really, really not. I always, always thank them for asking before they do it, because some of the stuff their parents are telling them to do is so bad. :(

            I don’t see undergrads much but I had one come in once and give me his resume. It was in purple comic sans and I was just like WUT. His dad told him to.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        There was one super chipper applicant who had applied online THE NIGHT BEFORE and wanted to give me her resume in person!!! No!!!!!!!!!

    4. Bee's Knees*

      Dang. I had a guy who got offended the other day when I told him we weren’t hiring, and even if we were, it was all online. He did not take off his sunglasses the entire time he was speaking to me.

    5. AnonymEsq.*

      So weird! We just had that happen here. Some young guy showed up in shorts and a t-shirt to follow-up on an application he submitted for an accounting job. Is this a thing now?

    6. Evil HR Person*

      OOOhh, me too!! It’s never been this bad. It’s coinciding with the end of the school year, methinks. It seems like the school career coaches all went to the same event with the same bad ideas and have been sharing these same bad ideas everywhere.

    7. For what it's worth*

      It was part of the first episode of GLOW, maybe that’s where they got it from. In any case, fiction based on what didn’t even fly back in the 80s probably isn’t the best way to go.

    8. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Oooh, if you want to write in with a letter about this, I’d be very interested in printing it, especially if you include details about how you and your coworkers have handled it (because it sounds like you’ve handled it well, which isn’t always the case).

  10. PB&Jill*

    Curious what others think of this. No one in the office where I work is allergic to peanuts. Some of us (myself included) will occasionally bring in pb&j or peanut butter crackers for lunch or snacks. However, a new coworker just sent an email to the entire staff stating that no peanut products should be eaten at work because her 8 year old son is allergic and she is concerned about bringing home any “peanut residue.”
    This is the first I’ve heard of such sensitivity and, while I can easily do without PB at work, there is a bit of snark going on right now with the rest of my coworkers about snowflakes making up second hand peanut allergies.
    Is this a normal request in today’s day and age? If it makes a difference, this is not an office environment where children are permitted.

    1. ghostwriter*

      I would check with HR about this. It sounds definitely unreasonable (why not just NOT touch peanut butter if she’s that worried?) but for something health related it’s probably better to double check. Maybe there’s a middle ground where you can clearly label things with peanuts in the break room?

    2. Semaj*

      This is not a normal request. If this were, any adult working in a school would have to refrain from eating peanut products at home and restaurants, as would their family members, because then the school worker can transmit ‘residue’ to school where a kid might be allergic, no? Not encouraging you to disrespect the request, and I understand where it’s coming from, but.. not normal.

    3. Manders*

      I think there genuinely are some peanut allergies that can get that extreme, although I do wonder sometimes how people can cope with being out in the world where it’s just not possible to control whether the strangers you might encounter may have touched peanuts. It sounds very difficult and I have sympathy for that!

      Is almond butter, cashew butter, or other nut butter still ok? Peanut butter is convenient and cheap but there should be some similar substitutes.

      1. Manders*

        I should add that I don’t think this is “normal” but severe allergies don’t always play by the rules of normal etiquette. I also wonder why this woman went straight to emailing the whole office instead of asking a manager to make the announcement for her. The concern may well be valid but it’s a strange first impression to make on your new coworkers.

        1. PB&Jill*

          Yes, this email isn’t making a good first impression for her (the tone didn’t help- it came across as her telling us not to bring food made with peanuts, not asking). I don’t really care that much and can make my sandwiches with something else if it comes to it, but the coworkers sitting around me have been talking about how ridiculous this email is all morning. I wonder if maybe her kid was just diagnosed and she is being super cautious or if she is just a high maintenance snowflake (office opinion appears to be the latter, unfortunately for her).

        2. Jaid*

          Exactly. This should have come from her manager or HR.

          At my work, we have people with various allergies (citrus!), so you see signs posted around their unit reminding people not to bring the allergen around. But there’s no outright ban for the whole floor.

        3. ANon.*

          Agreed. Not all peanut allergies are alike in severity, so we really can’t compare whether her request is medically overboard or not, as some other comments have been trying to do.

          I get that it’s easy to see it as hyper-controlling since she obviously can’t control every person she comes in contact with, if/when they came into contact with peanuts. But who knows? If her son really is that sensitive, isn’t it better for the office to err on the safe side? Surely finding peanut alternatives is better than risking her son’s life!

          1. Manders*

            Yes! To be honest, I did once have a coworker who I suspected was exaggerating about some health issues, and I did my fair share of eye-rolling in private far away from her. But when a health issue so severe that a coworker’s child could die, I think taking precautions is reasonable.

            The real problem here is that by making an end-run around her manager to declare this a new office policy, she showed that she’s not very sensitive to the realities of office politics, and she didn’t leave any openings for people to bring up other possibilities like peanut-free zones. It’s possible that her child does really have a severe allergy and also she’s not particularly diplomatic.

    4. [insert witty username here]*

      I think this is going overboard. So does this person not go to any establishment where peanuts are present? (rhetorical question, I know you don’t know the answer) This seems rather extreme. I could see MAYBE requesting no peanut products in a shared breakroom, conference rooms, or at her desk (definitely the last one is OK), but people should be allowed to eat PB at their own desks.

      1. lilsheba*

        So it’s actually the opposite where I work, they don’t want peanut butter or any tree nuts at people’s desks, they ask to confine them to the break rooms.

    5. dealing with dragons*

      one of my old coworkers was (is? haha) super allergic to peanuts and his only request was that I either let him know I’m eating at my desk so he can relocate, or I eat the pb in the break room away from him.

      I’m not sure you can reasonably accommodate someone who is not an employee.

      1. Celeste*

        That’s more like it. I can see her asking to keep her immediate work area free of peanuts, but anything more is a reach.

      2. Mae*

        Right, I have a severe peanut allergy and I just ask people to let me know so I can remove myself from the area. I’m a librarian and a patron had peanut smell on their breath that made my mouth itch, so I just left the public area for a few minutes. (Why do people stand so close to me that I can smell their breath, but I digress). If she washes her hands she should be fine.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          To be fair, peanut butter reeks. I don’t eat it or have it in my home, but I swear I can smell a peanut butter sandwich across a room.

      3. Nye*

        Yeah, I worked with a guy who had severe allergies himself and he didn’t go as far as this coworker. He did ask everyone not to leave any dishes that had touched peanut butter in the shared sink (I think he had his own dishes / sponge), and to let him know if we brought anything with peanuts in for a potluck so he could avoid them. And this was a guy who couldn’t walk into certain restaurants because they cooked with peanut oil and he couldn’t even breath the air. I think the new coworker is being ridiculous. (As someone else pointed out, maybe this is a new diagnosis and she’s going overboard as she’s adjusting to it?)

        1. Mimi Me*

          I worked with a guy with a chocolate allergy that could be triggered by smell. One day a year our department did a “chocolate day” and he would work from home that day. It was always scheduled on a Friday to give the area time to air out over the weekend. He never asked us to cancel it though.

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      Your co-worker is completely over the line. Her request is akin to asking everyone in her son’s class not to eat peanut butter at home because they could bring it to school (that said, I always wipe my kids down if they eat PB in the morning for this reason. They both have allergic kids in their classes.) You keep the school environment decontaminated as much as possible and hope other parents are on board, but her ask is beyond reasonable.

      Tell her no. She is responsible for decontaminating herself. I teach school and I have a students with severe nut allergies. I feel for your co-worker – severe food allergies are scary and challenging, plus you really rely on other parents taking it seriously. Maybe she could connect with a support group for allergy moms.

    7. Incognite mode*

      that is really weird. I have no idea if the peanut residue is a thing however, I feel that if it is then she should be policing what she brings home herself. So long as you aren’t putting peanut products onto her desk or stuff, it isn’t hard for her to clean her dishes if she is taking some home and used the shared kitchen. Plus peanut products means a lot more than just peanut butter. A lot of thai curries have peanuts in them, etc.

      I have food allergies. Granted I am an adult. But its my job to make sure the things I eat are safe, not anyone elses. To me she is passing her responsibility on to everyone else so she doesn’t have to do the work of checking her stuff. It would be one thing if her child was going to be at your workplace, or if it were her childs school. But trying to control what HER colleagues eat because of her son is a bit much.

      That being said, I really hate your usage of snowflake. Its a term used by the majority to suppress the voice of a minority group. If you label them as snowflakes you can just dismiss people and (sometimes) legitimate concerns. Its dehumanizing.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Well, it CAN be… but generally that would only become an issue if she ate or touched the peanut product and then didn’t brush her teeth or wash her hands before going home. I don’t see how else other people’s PB or candy would get on her clothes in a normal office.

        Unless you guys work in bar or restaurant with peanut shells on the floor like Texas Roadhouse or something.

      2. epi*

        I am agnostic about the appropriateness of this woman’s behavior, but I really want to boost what you are saying about the term “snowflake”.

        I realize this is a recent change in our language, but that term has been used increasingly as a politicized slur to refer to young people, anyone more liberal than the speaker, and people who need accommodations for their physical or mental health. If the OP or their coworkers are actually calling someone they work with a “snowflake”, they are behaving very inappropriately at work– worse than someone who sent an email that is maybe clueless and high-handed.

        This is not such a widespread use that I am going to immediately assume ill of someone who says it. But the OP and their coworkers should know what company it puts them in to use that term at work, especially on someone making a medical request, and consider if this is really the message they want to send. I can guarantee that at least some people who hear that term, will hear it as a slur. I do.

        1. Lissa*

          Yeah, this term has changed in use a lot. I remember 10 or so years ago the term was used to describe entitled people who felt they should get special treatment in the context of things like, people who ask crafters to work for free, or expect to be able to flout the rules of the gym because they are THEM after all! “Keep your dogs on a leash? Oh that means OTHER people” or being rude to people working tech support for not bumping their request to the head of the line.

          I think some people probably still do use it that way so I wouldn’t necessarily assume in context someone who said it was trying to slur a particular age/political view but it has definitely taken on that tone lately.

        2. EinJungerLudendorff*

          Yes, that jumped out to me too.
          Dismissing medical accommodations with that term makes me suspect I wouldn’t want to work with OP or his colleagues.

    8. LibbyG*

      My kid has a peanut allergy, and I eat peanut butter stuff at work and all that. So I don’t perceive this request as medically necessary

      However, the thing about peanut/tree-nut allergies is that they are ALL considered life-threatening, and that message is being conveyed to your coworker multiple times a year. Last year a 13 yo girl died from anaphylactic shock even after getting two doses from epipens right after exposure (and her dad is a doctor).

      So, with this terrifying context, an over-abundance of caution is understandable. Sunbutter (made from roasted sunflower seeds) is a great substitute. It’s an easy thing to accommodate.

      2. EtherIther*

        The fact that it’s easy to accommodate doesn’t mean it’s fair for an entire office to shift their eating habits if it isn’t necessary.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          True, but it’s also not OP’s or the coworkers’ place to decide what is medically necessary or not. That’s for the doctors to determine, and the managers to arrange.

          Which is another reason why this should’ve gone through management, but that’s another issue.

          1. EtherIther*

            I agree – hence the “if”! If it’s necessary, that’s one thing. If it’s not necessary, it doesn’t matter how easy it would be for people to change their behavior, it still shouldn’t be forced on them.

    9. AnnoyedAnon*

      I wonder does this same person tell anyone she comes in contact with (cashiers, servers, etc.) not to eat peanut butter for the same reason? Why oh why does it have to get to this level? I would happily continue eating my peanut butter sandwiches, Nutter Butter cookies, Snickers, Reeses, etc. Ridiculous!

    11. Bunny Girl*

      To echo others, I don’t think this is a reasonable request. I think it would be kind to try to avoid eating peanut products around the coworker or in their own personal work space, but unless the coworker themselves has a severe allergy, banning it all together is over the line. This woman cannot reasonably expect that every single place that she goes she’ll be able to tell people not to eat peanut products. If she’s out shopping at a store and sees someone eating a Reese’s is she going to slap it out of their hand???

    12. CatCat*

      I don’t understand why her washing her hands is not adequate. I am not understanding how she could encounter any such residue otherwise. Admittedly though, I am not familiar with how this allergy can be trigger.

      At any rate, the coworkers should just ask her for more information about it instead of talking about her behind her back.

    13. Media Monkey*

      a friend of mine’s son is so allergic to peanuts that he had to go to Er after his dad ate peanuts on a flight and then travelled another 4 hours home and kissed him goodnight, causing the allergic reaction. some people have these pretty severly, and treating them like “snowflakes” (god i hate that term) causes people to be flippant about genuine allergies.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        This. It is likely that the coworker doesnt’ need to be that cautious, but it’s not a matter of her being a “snowflake.” Peanut allergies can be very serious, and you can pick up peanut protein without realizing it (which is how you get episodes of kids having reactions after touching a public doorknob). I don’t know whether the request is reasonable without having more information (I lean towards thinking it’s not), but I’m just a little bit wary of your coworkers’ lack of sympathy. Thinking she is probably asking for something unnecessary is one thing, calling her a snowflake is another. Has anyone thought to ask for more information before deciding she’s a drama llama, or asking about alternative ways to help assure she’s not bringing peanut protein home with her?

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          To clarify, I don’t think it’s the coworkers’ responsibility to find a better solution. It’s not. But if nobody wants to or plans to comply with her request, but they do have some sympathy or compassion for her, then there’s almost certainly middle ground between refusing to change anything and completely banning peanuts on the premises. It doesn’t sound like they do have much sympathy, though.

        2. EtherIther*

          I suspect she would have gotten more sympathy if she hadn’t sent an office-wide email demanding her coworkers change her behavior. Even if it was totally required for her child’s life, that isn’t the best approach…

      2. Malarkey*

        Except the coworkers aren’t going to this home and kissing her child. She’s the one that can’t eat peanuts, but it would be impossible to police what every person yo come into contact eats.

    15. Lilysparrow*

      I think if her child’s allergies are so extreme that this is a real concern (which is rare but possible), she needs to bear primary responsibility for protecting her child. If that means she has to shower & change clothes after work before touching her child, then that’s her responsibility.

      If she wants *help* from her co-workers that would make things easier for her, it’s normal and okay to request that help and be specific about what actions would be helpful.

      Unilaterally issuing a fake policy dictating what your co-workers are allowed to eat is not the right way to do that.

      If she wants an official no-peanut policy in the office, she needs to go through proper channels. If she won’t, or it isn’t accommodated, then she needs to back way the heck up and remember that she’s asking people for a favor to make her own life easier.

      She is capable of keeping peanut residue away from her child without this. It’s just a lot more work.

      1. LibbyG*

        Well, but dangerous possibilities are usually managed with redundant layers of protection. So ostensibly, her child is even more protected from a life-threatening exposure if she does what she can AND peanut proteins in the office environment are sharply reduced. It’s not necessarily either/or.

        Yes, peanut butter is tasty and convenient, but it is really that big a deal to just eat something else at work? To help prevent a remote but devastating risk?

        1. Mimi Me*

          I’ve literally had weeks where peanut butter and bread is all I had to bring for lunch because I had no funds to purchase any other alternatives. So yeah, I would say that it would be a big deal if a co-worker created a no-nut policy for a person who didn’t work in my office.

      2. Lis*

        I, many years ago, had an interview in a company that processed fish. It was a generational business where the grandfather set it up. The owner mentioned that one of his sisters was deathly allergic to fish, like really bad because she had been exposed so much before they realised what was causing the problem. They had implemented a decontamination room in the house so everyone changed their clothes and showered before coming into the communal areas, sister never went into that room.

    16. Not So Super-visor*

      The peanut residue is a thing. The best friend of our neighbor’s 10-year cannot be around anyone who has consumed peanut products in the last hour. Every time they’re playing in my driveway (we’re the childless neighbors with a basketball hoop that the previous owners installed and are cool with letting the kids use it), I freak out and do a mental “when was the last time you ate peanuts” check.

      1. Maryanne is a Ginger*

        The last hour? It’s not like peanut toxicity has a half life. It is more likely that the amount on the peanut eater has been rubbed off, or saliva has broken down remains in teeth.

        Rather than wait an hour, you could probably get the same reduction in risk by washing hands, brushing teeth, changing clothes.

      2. Clisby*

        But surely this mother isn’t consuming peanut products at work. So any residue would have to be from co-workers’ consumption, or just from being around peanut products in general (peanut dust in the air?)

        If that level of secondary residue is really dangerous to her child, then she needs to decontaminate herself before she gets home (or, at least, before she touches the kid.) I, personally, wouldn’t mind not bringing peanut products to work, but how can she be sure everyone else is complying? How can she guard against co-workers going out to lunch and eating a Chinese or Thai meal that includes peanuts? If she has any contact with customers, how can she be sure they haven’t eaten peanuts recently?

    17. Smile-a-thon*

      It is one thing to make accommodations for the needs of a coworker. It is another to make accommodations for the needs of a coworkers family member that does not work in the office.

      While I sympathsize that this is a parent trying to reduce risk for a child, it is not a reasonable request.
      If she is worried about peanut contamination, it would be far safer for her to (1) thoroughly wash her hands before going home and (2) change her clothing.

    18. Frankie*

      Looks like some think this is overboard, but this can actually be a huge, huge deal.

      It’s possible that this woman is being overcautious, but it’s just as possible that her kid is one of the ones who is at risk of hospitalization or death if he contacts peanut residue. That’s a real thing that is separate from a more mild allergy to peanuts. I don’t know how common it is, but my dad’s friend had a son with this type of extreme allergy and it made their lives miserable. If she’s in this situation, their lives are already hell and the least you can do is not bring in peanut butter and expose her to it.

    19. Pnut*

      This thread is a good reminder of how much misinformation there is about allergies. Just because you know someone who had a certain tolerance or experience or requirement for their allergies does not mean that is standard across the board. Please be respectful of those with a life-threatening health condition that often gets brushed off.

    20. Creme Horns*

      This isn’t normal. My work BFF is highly allergic to Peanuts like if I eat a PB cookie and use her keyboard she will need to use her Epi pen soon after. Her office requests are:
      – no eating peanut products in the cubes in directly touching her cube
      -no eating peanut products during meetings when she is there
      -use hand sanitizer before we touch anything on her desk in case we have had peanut contact.

      1. Rainy*

        I’ve had to ask coworkers to stop eating a very popular fruit around me because sometimes–not always, but sometimes, depending on fruit varietal and other factors–if you eat that fruit around me I will be unable to breathe.

    21. Loux in Canada*

      Not really? I mean, I’m pretty allergic to peanuts and nuts. Some of them I can be around totally fine, I can practically breathe in the residue without problems, and some of them I have to stay away from completely (well, I don’t go into Bulk Barn for that reason). But if, like, someone was in Bulk Barn and then came to my house, it’d be fine unless they were touching a bunch of peanuts and then proceeded to rub it all over my face or something.

      I’m thinking that maybe she had a scare recently, like my example above, and is now being overly cautious. But as long as she’s being careful herself, I don’t foresee it being an issue. Her son could have been recently diagnosed and this is what’s causing her overabundance of caution.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Isn’t there a big difference between peanut butter and peanuts, in terms of peanut residue? I wouldn’t think that peanut butter would cause much concern about peanut residue since it’s not in a form that you would expect “dust” or “residue” to come from. I can see the person not wanting people cracking open peanuts and dropping shells on the floor, and how peanut residue could easily get transferred to clothes in that situation, but not with peanut butter, which is pretty self contained.

        1. ..Kat..*

          For a severe peanut allergy (which this would be), even peanut butter is bad news. You handle the peanut butter jar when you make a sandwich. You get some residue on your hands. When you eat the sandwich, there is still the risk of getting peanut residue on your hands from the outside of your sandwich (0r worse, oozing out from the inside of your sandwich). This can get on the table where you eat or what you touch after eating, which can transfer to your coworkers items, that she then takes home to her severely allergic child.

    22. Akcipitrokulo*

      She should have been less antagonistic. And it does sound unusual – but by no means impossible – so I’d just go “meh” and avoid bringing peanuts to office. If she’s over reacting… no harm done. If she’s not… harm averted.

    24. Jasnah*

      Personally this is the kind of thing where how the coworker handled it makes a big difference in my reaction.
      Scenario 1
      Coworker’s manager or HR: Since Coworker’s child is severely allergic to peanuts, we ask that you refrain from bringing in peanut butter or peanut products if at all possible. If you do eat peanuts at work, please do it in the break room and be sure to wash your hands and wipe surfaces thoroughly afterwards. Thanks for helping to keep this kid safe.
      Me: Wow that allergy sounds tough. I’ll save my pb&j for at home.

      Scenario 2
      Coworker sends mass email demanding that nobody bring peanuts to work anymore.
      Me: Who died and made you the No-Peanut Queen?! You can pry this PB&J from my peanut-butter-covered hands!!

      So for me it’s not even about the allergies themselves, but that it’s a lot easier to accommodate someone’s request if they ask nicely.

  11. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    So, it’s been a very tense week on the Hellmouth. Another building got struck by lightning, the pervy groundskeeper apparently was taking pictures of ladies bending over to pick up dog poop (which my boss insists was probably work related—she actually told the resident who called to complain that she was “sorry if [they] were offended, but per the lease we can photograph residents if we choose to”), but I am more caught up in the reprecussions of going to HR a few weeks ago.

    HR talked to my former coworker (The Good Leasing Consultant) on Monday. He actually gave me a call and let me know that the HR rep asked a lot of questions about the camera/microphones and how often my boss is out of the office, and that he thought they were going to do something and everything was going to be okay. Later that day, the HR rep called my boss and apparently asked a few questions about TGLC, and I guess that’s when my boss caught scent of something in the wind. All of a sudden she was asking me all kinds of questions about TGLC and talking about how he was a “disappointment” and saying that he had done something and probably made himself ineligible for rehire. “What a shame, what will he do when he decides he doesn’t like it over at his new place and tries to come back?” was an actual sentence uttered, and thank GOD she called that out from her office and was not looking directly at my face, because it probably pretty clearly read WHO WOULD EVER WANT TO COME BACK.

    The next morning (Tuesday), I overheard her on the phone with the VP. The first thing I heard her say was “Well, apparently TGLC has been talking to HR rep, about which I know not what, but she was calling and asking me questions” before going into the most terrible smear job about the guy. Her formerly favorite employee. Who, by the way, had an amazing work ethic and basically kept the place afloat and was fantastic. And then after she was done with him, she tore into me. Among many choice things she said that I might claim that I was too busy to get to finish all of my work duties, but really, she was carrying all of the load for the office. After the call was over she came out, sweetly asked me about my weekend, then oh so casually asked me if I had spoken to TGLC since Friday. Not fun times. She also suddenly started picking up a ton of the work, which she has been leaving me to handle solo since TGLC left. She tried to “subtly” grill me about TGLC throughout the rest of the day, also. I finally emailed my HR rep and said that she was asking me a lot of questions, some of them pretty weird, and I thought that she might know or suspect that I had been talking to HR, to which the rep replied that she would have no way of knowing or suspecting that, that the rep was going to have a conversation with the regional VP next, and that it was all being handled. Meanwhile, my boss started blowing up TGLC phone as soon as the work day ended, and picked back up again at 8am the next day (he did not answer or respond to any of her texts).

    The next day (Wednesday), Boss was already in when I got there, which… was freakish. She is never in before about 20-30 minutes after we open unless the regional VP is in town, and even then she usually isn’t in before anyone else. my boss continued trying to cover most of the office work, but also kept slipping out for weird and easily-found-to-be-fake reasons, although I didn’t find out why until Thursday, when I came in early and the maintenance supervisor pulled me aside to tell me that my boss kept hunting him down and grilling him (even at the end of the day when he was clocked out and trying to go to his apartment) about ME. Did I seem weird? Was I mad at her? Did he think that I disliked her? What was I up to when she wasn’t around? And so on. And then when my boss actually came in she kept asking me all sorts of strange small talk questions (paraphrased: “How old is your dog? 8 years, how sad, he’ll probably die soon,” “Talked to TGLC lately?”). She was just being… bizarre. And really freaking me out. So. I loosened the plug on the secret microphone that she has up behind my desk while she was at lunch, because this has been going on for FOREVER and I am sick to death of being under a microscope and it just has to stop. The recording me just has to stop.

    And when she came back in from her break, she made a beeline for the plug (first having to wiggle in between the wall and my desk) and plugged it back in.

    So I emailed my HR rep. Because it has been three weeks since I went to her about this and I am still under constant surveillance and it is not okay. Here is the response I received:
    “[Hellmouth],
    I will be asking her to remove the cameras tomorrow. I investigated further and learned the audio is not always on therefore she is not listening to your conversations at all times. I understand this can be uncomfortable therefore we will be asking her to remove the cameras.
    All managers are currently at a conference since yesterday so I have not been able to call her.
    Thank you, ”

    And I just lost it, guys. I mean, I’m OBVIOUSLY glad that the cameras and microphones will be going, but 1) they are on whenever she is not in the office, and 2) even if they weren’t, what difference would it make if she were secretly recording me for a few hours every other day instead of constantly? Also, even though my state has one party consent, that one party needs to be present. She’s not present when those things are on. And it sounds like telling her to take down her toys will be the only thing to happen so… vengence will probably be on her mind.

    On the plus side, I also got an email from the hiring manager for that job at Local Big University saying that they would be making their final hiring decision at the end of the week (so, today I guess) and would be letting everyone who interviewed know their decision. On the minus side, it doesn’t sound like any of my references have been contacted. But I’m off today because I worked last Saturday, so I’ll be doing another application round up. Because I do not know how I am going to make myself go back to that place on Monday.

    2. Avocado Toast*

      Aside from all the rest of this, I’m stuck on “Another building got struck by lightning”. I look here every Friday eagerly hoping we’ll have a good update from you!! Fingers crossed!!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I have actually last count of the number of lightning strikes since I started here. Oh, and (I guess since it is starting to warm up) the mysterious wasps are back in the office, too.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh my god. I can’t imagine how it feels to be in that environment. Fingers crossed the LBU job works out!!!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It kind of feels like being on fire, but also your stomach is frozen solid, and you have to be on constant guard so you don’t accidentally start screaming or—worse—telling your boss what you actually think of both her and of the whole situation.

        Thanks for the crossed fingers! I’m trying to manage my expectations, but if I do get an offer I will be taking it immediately.

    4. kittymommy*

      I am sooo praying that you have a great update later today about the university job!!!!!

    5. Troutwaxer*

      I’m sorry it’s so damn crazy. May Cthulhu bless you and diminish your boss (by sending a shoggoth to eat her.)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        A shoggoth or a Canadian Trap Door Alligator. Either would be okay with me.

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      Bless you. I wish this was a better update and fingers crossed for that job offer. This is one of the places where I would say nuke that bridge. Don’t just burn it. Thanos snap it.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I actually have the Her Universe “gauntlet.” Maybe I’ll wear it when I finally get to tell them I’m quitting.

    7. Bee's Knees*

      I hope you get the job! And girl is bananas. And so is the HR person for thinking it’s ok, in any way, that that’s happening. They have offended me, and if I was you, I’d have gone to the HR person’s boss.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I have some friends suggesting that I lawyer up, depending on what happens when I go in on Monday.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          I absolutely hope you lawyer up. The level of crap from this job is… just… I don’t think there’s a word strong enough. Particularly because it really sounds to me like she just threatened your dog’s life.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Really hoping on the university job, but just in case: can you take Monday off? Like, call in sick on Sunday evening?

      You deserve a break, and Monday would be a good day for it.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I wish I could, but I need to save the PTO that I have left for interviews.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I was incredibly offended/upset by that exchange. And hugged my dog extra when I went home.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            She does NOT. And I will definitely not be bringing him by the office.

        2. China Beech*

          Wow, I am so sorry to read all of this and that you are being subjected to (not so) surreptitious recording as well as the daily harassment and HR’s slowness to respond. I feel this is one of those rare cases (if you can afford to) to leave the job before having another one lined up. I worry about your safety and the general nuttiness to which you are being exposed. This is not a healthy work environment, and while the removal of the recording devices would be a slight improvement, I don’t think it’s good to stay any longer than you have to. Go have some quality time with your furbaby and positive vibes to you and your NEW opportunity!

    10. Drew*

      My gob is completely smacked. HR is totally OK with audio surveillance as long as video isn’t involved? And they aren’t going to send someone to make SURE the stuff is removed, just ask her nicely?

      Your boss is so bananacrackers she gives actual bananas and crackers a bad name. I very much hope for good news out of the current round of applications — but if this one falls through, keep plugging away, because you deserve better. So much better.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I’m going to keep plugging for sure. I have to get out, before my brain is irrevocably broken.

          1. Kat in VA*

            This. I would turn this into a passive-aggressive escalation war. She leaves, you unplug, she returns and re-plugs, you wait until she leaves, unplug again.

            See if she’s willing to say anything, at which point you can say, “Oh, you mean the plug to the microphone you’ve been secretly recording me with for X amount of months now? THAT ONE?”

            Right now, the game depends on both of you pretending to not know the microphone is there. Petty, passive-aggressive, and ridiculous but…you do work on a Hellmouth and you have to savor your small, spiteful pleasures where you can!

            1. Fact & Fiction*

              Yep! And when she confronts you I would channel Alison: “Oh, I keep unplugging that when you leave to protect you! As I’m sure you know, in a one-party recording consent state, at least one of the parties must be present, so OBVIOUSLY when you’re not here I want to make sure that you don’t get in trouble with the law. It would be just awful for the company if that happened.” *blinkblinksmileblandly*

              1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

                When she leaves, dunk it in the vat of fruit water, so it stops working correctly.

      2. Catherine Tilney*

        “Your boss is so bananacrackers she gives actual bananas and crackers a bad name.”
        Ok, I totally snorted my lunch on reading that.

        Wishing you all kinds of job-hunting luck, Hellmouth. This cannot be healthy.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        Yes! I specifically look you up and hope each week that I will read you have given your notice. I will continue to do so and send internet good wishes!

    13. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

      Good God! I really hope I will read ‘I used to work on a Hellmouth’ next week.

      All my sympathies to you. Must be really stressful to work at a place that constantly surveils you.

      Btw: really compassionate boss you have *role eyes* “How old is your dog? 8 years, how sad, he’ll probably die soon”… even when it is paraphrased, it is still… AAARRRGG!

      And her defending the other dude upskirting young girls. Yikes. So creepy! (Both of them)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, defending that dude is pretty awful. But she also got very angry when she was told that the same dude was reportedly watching porn on his phone in the maintenance shed… very angry with the people who reported it.

        1. IrisEyes*

          Ewww ewww ewww. I forgot about that part.

          Anybody think this might be a pattern of escalation? Anyone else concerned that he has access to people’s living spaces and probably knows or has the ability to know when they are home alone? I’m not saying it will happen but…

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Fortunately, as the groundskeeper he has no access to the automated key system. But the dude is just BAD NEWS. I actually caught him threatening to throw a little kid’s scooter into the dumpster about two weeks back. He was really mean and the kid was scared. It was NOT okay. There’s something really wrong with that guy.

            1. The Ginger Ginger*

              Not that you need MORE on your plate, but you may want to escalate that dude’s behavior, both the photography and the scooter incident, AND the boss’s handling of it to HR. Not that HR is a shining star here, by any means, but sexual harassment and regular harassment of tenants, and covering up of same, may strike them as much more serious/urgent than the recording since it’s “just” your boss doing it to you.

              It sucks, but you might see some traction that way, and it may do some good for those tenants as well.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I work with some truly exhausting people, I’m pretty sure you aren’t approaching that.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Dang, Annoyed,
        I could have agreed that *Hellmouth’s Situation* is exhausting. But Hellmouth? Hellmouth’s posts fascinate many of us. The events have taken such strange turns it’s like reading a surrealist novel.
        May I suggest “Collapse replies”?

      3. BadWolf*

        I search for your update every week. And I totally believe all the bananas.

        Crossing fingers for good news from your interview!!!!!!!

      4. Psyche*

        Exactly. You aren’t cornered in an elevator being forced to listen. If you aren’t interested, skip to the next comment!

      5. kittymommy*

        I really hope something got lost in translation here, because not only is your comment incredibly rude and hurtful, it is also unnecessary as no one is making you read anything here. If you don’t care to have a weekly update from Hellmouth (that will hopefully end in an update of her winning the lottery and getting the hell out of there) then don’t read it. And certainly don’t comment. Not everything one thinks needs to be expressed.

      6. Kat in VA*

        Well, you’re boring. I’d rather be exhausted by the misadventures of I Work on a Hellmouth than bored by your attempt at a put-down where you couldn’t even be bothered to capitalize or use punctuation.

        Shoo.

        1. Kat in VA*

          FYI I’m not replying to kittymommy, I’m replying to a comment that’s been removed (in case anyone thinks I was being that rude to kittymommy, I’m not I promise!)

      8. I Need Coffee*

        Wow. That is completely uncalled for. If you don’t like it, keep scrolling.

    15. Psyche*

      “the audio is not always on therefore she is not listening to your conversations at all times.”

      The correct phrasing would be “Sometimes she has the audio on and is listening to your conversations.” Seriously!!

      1. Mockingjay*

        The current cameras and mikes may be removed, but I wouldn’t put it past EvilBoss to sneak one or two back in…

        Fingers crossed and offerings to the gods that LBU comes through!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I mean, if the current ones even GET removed—I just checked in with the awesome temp, and everything is still up and in place. Thanks, HR.

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        That is literally the psychological torture method known as the Panopticon. Apparently what’s considered too cruel for prisoners is just fine for Hellmouth!

    16. Veryanon*

      OMG. I work in HR, and I can’t imagine telling an employee that it’s totes fine that their manager is secretly recording them. We actually have a company policy that states employees cannot secretly record anyone, and have fired people for doing that. Can you escalate this to the HR rep’s manager? BC it is totally NOT FINE that your manager is secretly recording you!
      Also, I am sending you as many good vibes as I can from here on the East Coast that this will all work out and you will get a fabulous new job and tell those a**holes to f**k off.
      Hang in there.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I’m not sure… I think there is only one other person in HR, but I’m not sure how to go about escalating to her (they are in a different state). I have a few friends who work in HR, and they’ve all been pretty horrified, too. Which at least lets me feel better about how upset I am, I guess? Like, it really is as bad as I think, so at least I don’t have to worry that I’m the crazy one…

        Thank you for the East Coast good vibes! I am looking forward to getting out and moving on. And possibly telling them exactly where they can put their recording equipment.

    17. Wishing You Well*

      I hope you’re out of there soon.
      Your workplace is insane. The surveillance issue seems illegal.
      Fingers crossed for a job offer!

    18. Batgirl*

      Good news: Your boss is seriously rattled. Habitual liars are always highly disconcerted whenever they sense a truth hunt. They have ‘seize power and keep people off balance’ play book. They know they don’t have one for ‘cards on the table time’. She’s now resorting to some pretty desperate measures like a) hoping you like her (!) enough to reject any dealings in the truth b) Belatedly doing her job c) Saying random mean things to rattle you d) Hoping there’s more dirt on you than on her and d) Slandering her accuser at way too late a point for it to be creditable.
      She’s so panicked however that she’s actually more likely to make fatal mistakes. For example there’s no way she’d unplug her devices now – even though she’s about to get caught!

      Bad news: Even though your boss is on her back like a flipped out tortoise, HR are apparently too lazy to simply bend down and scoop her up. After all the heavy lifting and risks you and TGLC (such a good guy!) took this is their response? Giving her a friendly tip off followed by no action? Disappointing. A score of minus 100 out of 10.
      You, however, are a force to be reckoned with.

    19. Karen from Finance*

      Damn, I was really hoping the HR lady was going to do more than that. Maybe she still is, but is not showing all her cards yet. Let’s hope.

      Please let us know what the University says!! Good luck!!!

    20. VioletCrumble*

      I “sign in” every Friday with my fingers crossed for you.. that your week was decent (given your boss – good probably is too much to hope for..) AND more than anything that you’ve received GREAT news in the form of an fantastic offer from Big Local U…
      Frankly, I’m amazed and impressed at how strong and professional you’ve been throughout this endless ordeal. Hopefully this is the universe’s way of exacting dues in prep for an awesome, high paying, fulfilling new role with a fabulous employer…
      Hang in there.. I’m sure there’s many other lurkers that are rooting for you out here in the internets..
      I second/third.. whatever.. the hope that when you do move on and the dust settles you think about novelizing your experience.. You have such a talent for putting things into words and so much of what you’ve shared is incredible and fascinating in a horrifying – I shouldn’t look but can’t help it.. type of way…
      Keep the faith… better things are just around the corner!

    21. MommaCat*

      So, ah, how sturdy is the power cord for that “hidden” microphone? It’d be a shame if it got run over a few times with an office chair, or accidentally kinked badly enough for the inner wires to break… Or maybe some krazy glue on the mic itself to muffle the sound? Whatever you do, make sure it’s invisible!

      1. MommaCat*

        Also, while I know very little about hidden mics like that, I do know actor mics, and there should be some kind of transmitter attached to it, like with an antenna or something. IF you can find an antenna attached to the mic, that can be another point of failure for the mic. If not, you’re back to the power cord. Right next to the mic itself and right next to the plug itself are common failure points for electronics. Or, if you want, you can just cut the cord right before giving your notice (unplug before doing any kind of messing with the power cord; I know that’s common sense, but it’s always good to remind folks of that!).

    22. ThursdaysGeek*

      Ok, I know you can’t do this, but I so wish you had some way to put in a recording device of your own – for after you are gone. Because I really want to hear your manager’s reaction when you give notice, and then in the days after. I do hope you get out soon.

    23. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      If only the lightning could strike Hell Boss or Creepy Groundskeeper. D:
      Here’s hoping LBU comes through so you can run screaming. (I rather imagine it all collapsing into a giant sinkhole as you flee.)

    24. Laura H.*

      So… I have a kinda stupid question… HOW on this good green earth did you manage to land in the Hellmouth in the first place??

      The idea of “Different manager hired you and then bailed” seems a little too hopeful. And current manager having a Jekyll when interviewing but showing Hyde once you were hired is scary to think about…

      I’m rooting for you, friend!

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          And now I’m confused, because Hellmouth had worked with her before, and thought she was one of the better ones. Or is that only in comparison, because it does sound like she’d had some pretty bad work experiences before this job too.

    25. ...Kat..*

      Given the cameras and microphones, I would caution you that she might put software on your computer that allows her to monitor your emails and all other computer activity. Just FYI.

  12. SOSonPIP*

    Any advice on how to deal with an employee who is about to go on a PIP and also fasting for Ramadan?

    Part of the problem I’m having is that she’s going on a PIP in part because of her failure to retain information and pay attention. I’ve noticed that she is even worse now while she fasts and another employee told me they’ve had to wake her up a couple of times.

    If this was a stellar or even average performing employee I could let this go, but I really can’t at this point, and I can’t wait an entire month plus to move forward at this point.

    1. dumblewald*

      What does fasting have to do with it? It seems like she is underperforming at her job, fasting or not. I’ve had colleagues who fast during Ramadan and it doesn’t impact their performance. I used to fast while I was in school but no longer as I don’t practice the religion, but my schoolwork was fine.

      1. Jaid*

        I think SOS doesn’t want the employee to use fasting as an excuse or be accused of targeting the employee during Ramadan.

        1. dumblewald*

          Yeah I didnt think about the PR aspect of it, but I guess what I’m saying is fasting isn’t an excuse for low performance, in general.

          1. SOSonPIP*

            To clarify, I agree, I just don’t want it to come off looking like I’m targeting someone. I also don’t want it to be an excuse, and I have noticed a further dip in performance since the fasting started.

      2. ghostwriter*

        If you already have ADHD, having low blood sugar intensifies that by 1000%. I agree OP shouldn’t assume fasting is a part of it, but I’m glad they’re considering how that could be a factor.

      3. I'm A Little Teapot*

        This. I’ve had coworkers who were fasting and I had no idea unless they said something. It’s a strawman.

      4. HR Stoolie*

        Ramadan fasting is from sun up to sun down, since based on the lunar calendar tjme time of year and geographic location can have a huge impact on how many hours they go without.

        I managed a large Muslim crew in Alaska during August, couldn’t break fast until 11:30 PM – 5:00 AM. Also learned fasting wasn’t just eating, but liquids too.

        1. Princesa Zelda*

          Oh goodness! I’ve had friends fast in Florida and Arizona and they basically didn’t go outside lest they dehydrate — I hope that wasn’t a serious problem for your workers!

      5. Gumby*

        For some people low blood sugar absolutely does affect performance. It mostly makes me cranky and headachy but also I am just… slower somehow at getting things. So it doesn’t have anything to do with under-performance to date, but it is a possible impediment to showing a marked improvement during the next month which you would hope would be the outcome of a PIP. (Other people seem much less sensitive to blood sugar fluctuations. I envy those people.)

    2. Troutwaxer*

      That’s a tough one, and I entirely sympathize with your problem, but firing an Islamic employee during Ramadan probably isn’t a good look for you or your company, and in the very worst scenario you could get thrown under the bus. I think I would carefully coordinate with HR (if you have an HR dept.) and/or whoever else might have to pick up the pieces if things go wrong and at least make sure everyone else at the company is aware of the optics and issues, then, if you absolutely must, move forward.

      Meanwhile, have a “state of the PIP” meeting with the employee and discuss all the ongoing. Take careful notes, so you’ve got some backup for whatever decision you make.

        1. SOSonPIP*

          The situation is that it’s unfortunately time for a PIP and it just happens to coincide. It’s not the best timing, but I think it would be worse to wait.

    3. ATX Language Learner*

      If she’s had issues before the fast, I think you’re good to go with the PIP. Fasting or not, she seems to have issues.

    4. Clorinda*

      The sooner you do it the better, because Ramadan just started, so you can reference things that hapened BEFORE she began fasting.

      2. dumblewald*

        Yes, PIPs are supposed to document concrete instances of underperformance. If these date before Ramadan (which just began), you should be good.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s about continued performance issues.

      So I would just make sure that you do it in the morning and not when she’s at her most fatigued stage of the day for when you bring her in for the discussion.

      Do not acknowledge that it’s worse during her fasting, don’t bring up her religion or her practices like that. It needs to be factual that she cannot retain the proper information and is being put on an action plan due to the continued issue. A lot of this is in your head and you’re conditioned to worry about doing things that may casually look like discrimination when really, it’s not closeted discrimination since you’ve already noted that if it were just during this time of year, you’d have no problem giving her more leeway. Just like you’d give someone who was grieving or ill leeway for a certain period of time but once it’s a perma-problem, it has to be addressed and fixed or she has to be let go.

    6. LGC*

      Thorny!

      So, it sounds like your problem is that your employee is not performing, but she also has external issues that can lower her performance. (Like not eating during daylight hours.) Would you be able to put her on a longer PIP because of Ramadan, and set interim goals? (And even reasonable adjustments.) I’d address the sleeping at work first, then the retaining information as the longer term goal.

      That said, she was already a poor performer before Ramadan and she’ll almost certainly have those issues after. So yeah, don’t delay just because it’s a holy month.

    7. Malarkey01*

      I echo others that you should focus on continued poor performance and site instances that pre-date fasting. I am someone who is greatly affected by fasting (not for religious purposes but for occasional medical needs) and it would be difficult for me to. E put on a PIP during a fasting period. If you can I’d try to structure the PIP period to take into account the difficulty she may have improving right away.

      I would not mention the fasting at all. If she does bring it up, you could ask if she has any ideas on how to structure her day given her needs and make it something she addresses.

    8. Batgirl*

      What would you do with a non religious sleeper?
      Fasting shouldn’t be knocking her out unless there’s also a medical condition going on. I had a friend who was given a religious exemption because not only was she unfocused, it’s unsafe!
      I think this is 100pc a non-religious well being issue and I would be tempted to focus on long term job performance/possible long term explanations and say “Your job is in real jeopardy but some of the things we’ve seen this year- lack of focus, poor memory and sleepiness could be either a health or a personal stress issue. You don’t have to disclose anything to me but is everything ok outside of work? Are you only struggling in here?”
      You could add “You might want to seek some advice just in case there’s something that can be done”
      If she raises Ramadan because she’s noticed it more often while fasting say “I’m glad you’re starting to notice it yourself but these issues actually date from x”

    9. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

      FWIW, I would definitely reference things that happened before Ramadan if it is essential that you start the PIP immediately, but also give them some slack/show you understand that Ramadan can be a tough time ref concentration.

      I know that is a bit of a mixed message (and would be interested to know what Alison would advise) when PIPs are supposed to be very clear and finite, but going without water all day really does have a huge impact on brain function.

  13. Alternative Person*

    I had a bad day at work today on top of a bad week. Got pizza after work and I’m feeling better, but I’m so tempted to take a sick day tomorrow because I feel awful.

    1. China Beech*

      If you have leave I don’t see anything wrong with taking it as recharging day! I’m sorry you had a trying week.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Yesterday was so awful I got sent home with instructions to take a mental health break. I wasn’t sick, just… really upset.

      It helped a lot. Feeling awful is feeling awful regardless of cause.

    3. wittyrepartee*

      Take it. Just say you’re not feeling well. And ouch- bad week and Saturday work?

    4. Bunny Girl*

      Go for it. You can’t perform at your best without feeling your best, and that means physically and mentally. I just had to take a relax and recharge day a few weeks back because I had a terrible week and then a terrible day Friday. I was getting so keyed up and anxious on Sunday thinking about having to go back that I really did start to feel ill so I called in Monday. That extra day really did help and I was able to go back Tuesday without going nuclear.

  14. SOAS*

    I got my offer letter this week and WOW it FEELS so unreal. I’m happy but holy crap I am nervous AF now but in a good way lol. I really didn’t want to leave my manager and my team, but this was a really good career (and financial – 17% increase) move IMO.

    FYI some of this is going to be more emotional than anything else.

    So, I was really down in the dumps about this a few weeks ago. We let go of an employee and they wrote a scathing review of us online. and the question in the first post today was great timing — in my case it was 99% personal attacks and 1% legit criticism but which was never brought to our attn. The personal attacks were hard to read. The other two people targeted weren’t as bothered but I really took it to heart b/c the comments were very personal, as well as just being untrue. I know a person whos fired has every right to be angry and can say whatever they want but we did our best with this employee. We were very clear about everything, but it wasn’t working out.

    I had my negative feelings about all of it and then decided to look forward now and learn from this. I’m excited to work on this new team and start building on to it with the tips I had from last week. I had a long meeting with my boss this week and it went well. She liked what I did with the job description and made a very small change which was actually to our benefit and I felt like my concerns were heard and not belittled. It will be a group interview, so I don’t feel as pressured now.. I’m sad to leave my mgr behind but excited to look forward.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just remember that when an animal is wounded, it’s scared and often lashes out due to the fear. This is often what happens when a person is hurting as well. Thankfully a lot of us can reel it in and self sooth but this terminated employee looks like they’re lacking in judgement or a proper outlet.

      You have every right to be hurt especially since it’s untrue or at least tainted by a really slanted point of view. I bet your other coworkers sting by it too but they aren’t voicing that for self preservation purposes. I’ve been hurt a lot by other staff’s negative POV about things, mainly when I think they’re over-the-top and not aware of how wrong they are, etc. But have learned to internalize it and talk to my colleagues in that “oh Brad is just mad, you know he had his issues and of course he’s lashing out. We’ll overcome this, it’s no big deal, just a lot of hot air. Look, squirrels!”

      Congratulations on the offer and pay increase! Now is the time to allow yourself to be selfish and enjoy looking towards the future. The others will miss you but I’m sure that if they’re good people who truly care about you, they’re excited for you future opportunity too!

      1. SOAS*

        Thank u!

        Yes, I’ try to remember: they’re out of a job. I don’t feel guilty b/c we did our best that we could. But some of their accusations…. the one that hurt the most was that I got ahead b/c of my “friendship” with my boss. As a woman, I was/am extremely insulted by this. I got opinions of others (men and women) and they didn’t read the sexual innuendo in to it the way I did, so it kind of helped me feel better. But it still left a bad taste for me– And I’ll be honest, even though it’s a total lie, I’ve had that insecurity in the past.

        It’s so funny cz…..6 years ago, I had just been let go from a temp position after a month. It was a devastating b/c I had a string of bad temp jobs and all I desperately wanted was a place I could grow and a manager who would have my back and I FINALLY GOT IT–he’s the one who pushed me for this promotion even though I’d be leaving him. I took shit at this job, but I worked hard at it and it finally feels like it was recognized. It wasn’t overnight, and it took a LONG TIME but it finally happened.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I may be reading further into this but if it’s what I think it is and they insinuated that you were engaged in an inappropriate relationship with the boss, as a woman and doing the whole “Well we know how /she/ got where she is, nudge nudge.” NONSENSE, then I cannot fault you a single bit for being so upset about it. That’s vile and even if others didn’t read it that way, I get it. That says a ton about the terminated employee on a level to encompass ‘Oh so they were bad at their job and a bad person, great.” ick. That’s reeks of sexism and some kind of displaced jealousy. Again, it speaks about the person writing the review and not about you personally. A lot of people will lash out and attack others wrongfully because honestly, they’re bad people and you cannot change them.

          The more important you are in an organization, the more likely you’ll run into people who want to take you down. This is a sign that you’re important and they’re petty/gross. You know your journey and you know what you’ve put into getting there. Ef anyone who wants to downplay it or act like they know you.

          1. SOAS*

            No, that’s the exact impression I had. At least that was my take on it. I did bring it up to others that I trusted and they didn’t think that that’s what the former employee was getting at but could see why I read it that way.

            Sad thing is, this was someone who had been bemoaning the lack of female leadership in the company. I was her supervisor but she constantly said I dont’ count b/c I’m friends with boss, and ignored that prevoius managers & current director were all women.

            It’s like, it was your deepest insecurity that someone picked up on, and brought it out in to the open and people have that seed planted in their head.

          2. SOAS*

            “The more important you are in an organization, the more likely you’ll run into people who want to take you down. This is a sign that you’re important and they’re petty/gross. You know your journey and you know what you’ve put into getting there. Ef anyone who wants to downplay it or act like they know you.”

            >>> I love this. TY so much !!!!!!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              YW YW

              As another woman in leadership, I’ll eat someone’s face for less. It will always still hurt to get those barbs but in the end, they’re scratching you because of ignorance and their own insecurities. Which is a shame. I choose to always try to feel pity because they’re really in the dark about things when they start playing with their internalized sexism in full view of others.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      Congrats on the new job! As someone else starting a new job soon (Monday – eek!) with a substantial pay increase (26%, almost 27), I know exactly how you feel. It’s nice that you’re going to stick around long enough to help your team find the right replacement for the recently fired employee, and yeah, don’t take that person’s angry review to heart. Angry people vent and sometimes while doing so, the person says stuff that isn’t always necessarily true in reality, but is true based on their own limited perspective. All you can do is keep doing what you’re doing because you’re obviously doing something right.

  15. petty is as petty does*

    How much work would you put into transition documents knowing that the moment you leave all the work you’ve done is going to be ignored because you had the nerve to change things and implement some new policies (which were effective and praised but are disliked by the saboteur in chief who will take my role on)?
    I am tempted to leave the bare minimum because I don’t care but know the professional thing is to leave the detailed documentation I am capable of.

    I have 11 days of work left at my current job and I cannot get out of here soon enough. 11 more days of petty backstabbing, sabotage, poor management, low pay and lousy benefits. And a reminder to never work in Maryland again.
    I cannot wait to be free of these people.

    1. Alternative Person*

      I’d write up the basics-however many bullet points to summarise the key points, useful web-links, any vital paperwork- whatever’s applicable. Having been in the place of writing transition and cover materials that ended up ignored, then there were complaints, having the proof I did write something was a good CYA. I don’t know if that matters in your situation, but you can leave with the knowledge you tried.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This is what I was thinking. Do something to show you tried and make sure everyone knows you put the documents together. No one will read them, but no one can say you burnt the bridge on your way out.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        That thread was super disheartening, to see how awful people can be.

        If you use ‘how petty’ as your yardstick, make sure you stick to a level that you can be not ashamed of later.

        1. fposte*

          That was really interesting on a lot of levels. I saw it as a window into how people can become “that” co-worker/employee in the right situation.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d write up a fully professional set of documentation so that the co-workers I’m leaving behind don’t say, “And on top of everything else, Glomarization didn’t even leave us a decent set of instructions.”

      1. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

        I’m with you on this.

        Dig deep, be the bigger person, do the best job you can and leave with your head held high.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think that I would leave a list with the boss of what my next steps would be if I had stayed. Up to the boss to figure it out.

    5. Anono-me*

      I would leave good documents, and leave them several places.

      1. It is your character.
      2. The other person can’t throw you under the bus retroactively for not doing a good job.
      3 . Someone else might wind up doing the job fairly soon and appreciate your notes. (Especially if your replacement isn’t doing well. )

      Ps.
      Congratulations!

    6. MJ*

      Can’t blame you for wanting to be petty but it’s likely best not to do it.

      Having said that, I would find it hard not to GBBO-style instructions, like leaving off the oven temperature or how long to bake. ;)

  16. Rosie The Rager*

    Former workers want me to help them sue

    I began contacting my predecessor in my current job, and she told me that she and her co-worker frequently received their paychecks a week or more behind schedule. I’ve had this experience twice in my five-month tenure and have mentioned it to my boss.

    The former workers both resigned and remain upset about their treatment, so they suggested I contact the authorities about filing a formal complaint about the inaccurate pay schedule and the repeatedly late checks. Given that the job is a placeholder for me, and I am actively interviewing, is it worth the effort and fallout to do this?

    Has anyone encountered a similar situation? If so, how did you handle it?

    1. fposte*

      Are they asking you to report *for* them? Because that’s weird. They can file a report with the state as well as you can, and they should for their own stuff.

      You should be able to figure out what penalties your state would levy for late pay and how much additional, if any, you’d be owed as a result; that would help you decide if it’s worth it. It would be illegal to fire you for filing such a complaint, but of course it’s [likely, depending on the state] illegal to pay you late, too, and that didn’t stop them.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Is there some sort of statute that only a current employee can sue, not a former one, or something?

        1. fposte*

          It doesn’t sound like they’re really talking about suing, just about reporting to the DOL. In which case there’s likely a time limit, but Rosie’s reporting won’t help the ex-employees get money if they’re past it.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          No, it’s usually a X amount of years since your last paycheck. Around here it’s 3 years from when you noticed an issue to report it, it doesn’t matter if you are already gone, that’s the point of investigation. It would let employers get away with things by just firing employees as well!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If you don’t want to be involved then don’t. You can just tell your cohorts that it only happened to you twice and you spoke to the boss directly. So you can say that you seriously doubt your experience will add much credence or weight to their case. What I like about this explanation is that it just makes sense and they will probably quit asking you.

      You don’t sound upset about it here, which to me is another reason for letting it go.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re sketchy and you should feel empowered to report them if you want to. However if you’re worried about retaliation or you don’t have the energy to go through the reporting system, that’s reasonable. This is your choice and them pressuring you to do their dirty work or join them in their crusade is not acceptable behavior on their part. It’s your right to create your own waves where you want to.

      They’re trying to seek revenge by turning a current employee on these guys and it’s so selfish. If they cared so much, they have recourse. Even if it’s just leaving a scathing GlassDoor review.

  17. Cassie*

    For those of you who keep notes at work of requests, decisions, etc – what works best for you? Paper vs electronic? How much detail do you get in to? How long do you keep the notes for?

    I’d like to start keeping (better) notes at work so if someone asks “why did you do this this way?” a year later, I don’t have rack my brain trying to think of the reason. At the same time, I don’t want to keep track of stuff that won’t matter in the long run (but sometimes it’s not easy to know what will be important later or not).

    1. Alternative Person*

      For me, paper mostly. I have epilepsy, and my focus/memory can be flakey on bad days but paper based, easily accessible notes (there aren’t many computers at work) are the shorthand I need. I buy a super nice zip up page a day year long diaries and they keep me on track. I write my schedule, commentary on stuff, bits I want to remember and shopping lists in that thing. It has helped a lot. For longer notes, I keep a running word document where I dump write ups that I might want for later, but I only tend to need that when there are difficulties with clients. I add to the top so more relevant stuff is kept high, but I can search by date if I need to.

      At the end of the year, I transfer over any notes I think are relevant to a new diary and store the old one at home.

      I have a smaller back up in my back-pack that I update week to week with the basics but that’s as much my paranoia as anything.

    3. Karen from Finance*

      OneNote! Definitely. I have strong feelings about my notes to the point I get teased about them. One Note has been wonderful for me. I do use paper as well, most of the time because actually writing it down in pen helps me fixate the idea in my brain, but I type faster and keep more organized on the computer.

      I keep the notes forever, or as closest as possible.

      The nice thing about OneNote is that it has a nice way to organize the information in pages (which can be grouped together by topic, and I use this for my advantage to “archive” old stuff), by tabs, and you can create different “notebooks”. So the information is always very visually accessible and organized.

      Right now I have the following tabs: [Company Name]; [Job Aids]; [Finance]; [Meetings]; [Open Items]; [Month-End Comments]; [Personal] – and then within each, there’s a whole BUNCH of pages.

      Nothing gets lost. There’s a nice search function too, you can format, add graphs, make to do lists, the whole thing.

      1. This Space For Rent*

        +1 on OneNote. You can put emails, presentations, etc. directly into the pages. Very handy and you can be as detailed as you wish.

      2. Mockingjay*

        OneNote is amazing. My favorite trick is to insert a printout of a document or a brief, then take notes alongside it. Excellent for long presentations and conferences. For conferences, I set up a notebook for each day, then individual pages for each presenter/topic. I use the Tags function quite a bit to flag Action Items, Questions, etc. in my notes.

      3. The Ginger Ginger*

        One Note can also be keyword searched, so if you remember taking the notes but aren’t sure where you put them, you can search for them easily.

      4. Hufflepuffin*

        I wanted to like OneNote but you can’t select all, copy and paste on a page and that drove me crackers.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Oh weird, I can do that in my version. The first ctrl+a gets everything in the box you’re in, but if you do ctrl+a again it highlights the whole page so you can then copy and paste it.

          3. The Ginger Ginger*

            Okay I just tried again and I missed a ctrl+a.
            Once gets the whole line, twice gets the whole box, the third one gets the whole document.

      5. Knotty Ferret*

        I take notes longhand, because I just don’t remember stuff I typed the same way. But then everything goes into OneNote, because I can organize, screenshot, and link to make everything easier. And it’s searchable. And it has reusable checklists. And if you need to share it, it tracks changes by user (though not a history of previous versions), so you can see that it was Jane who deleted something, or the last to add a detail.

        For shared conversations, I use email – please email your response, don’t just come by my desk, so I have a record of the final decision later.

      6. Raia*

        Another +1 for OneNote. The big thing is that it autosaves and is searchable. I recently discovered the tags function which is amazing for follow up questions I think of as I take notes during meetings, or to remind myself as a to do to stand and raise my desk!

    4. Ann Perkins*

      Email for all requests. I supervise a very operational person and it was the role I started in. If somebody stops by with a request, we always ask them to put the information in an email. It’s a finance related role and if there’s a discrepancy that ends up costing money, we need to know who was responsible for it.

      For decisions made during meetings – I take paper notes and put them in our electronic filing system.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I target the questions that come up repeatedly.
      For example: My boss always asks, if I gave X to so-and-so. I have a hand written sheet in each file. So on that sheet for that file, I would write “Gave X to Dave on Y date.”

      For questions that predictably come up YEARS later, another technique I use is to put information right where it’s logical to look for it. Want to know when that printer was purchased? The date is ON the users manual. If the printer quits I have probably pulled out the users manual anyway. I can see the date of purchase and quickly check how long the warranty is.

      It’s painful but many times I find out what to keep after the fact. In those cases the best I can do is not let that get past me again.

      Sometimes things go together in little “kits”. I have to burn a CD once in a great while. I have a little kit of information, including instructions on how they want it done, instructions that go with the CD to the receiver and other relevant materials. Since this rarely comes up, I put the phone number of who to call for questions on the folder that holds the kit. This is an example of puddling up information into one spot that is all relevant to only that one particular thing.

    6. Angwyshaunce*

      I essentially write “journals” for projects, tracking status, changes, requests, findings, etc. I write these electronically. It’s not unusual for me to have to remember thought processes from many years back. Even if it seems like overkill at the time, I’m always grateful when they’re there when I need them.

    7. Alianora*

      For my own tasks, paper. Easier to jot something down quickly. I do keep my work notebooks, but I rarely have to refer back to see when a particular task was done.

      For decisions & other people’s tasks, email. Easier to search and it’s usually helpful to have a summary sent out after a decision is made anyway.

    8. TiffIf*

      I work in software so we track projects in JIRA (we’ve used other tracking suites in the past) and I have learned to document EVERYTHING electronically in it. Even when we find an issue in the software and the product teams says we don’t care enough to fix it, we put an issue into the system and then an explanation of exactly why we have decided not to fix it or address it currently and then close it.

      This is sometimes a CYA but it has already been helpful in looking back remembering why we made a decision at that time and can reexamine if the reasons are still valid or if we need to revisit in light of something new.

    9. Ama*

      For long term, detailed stuff — i.e. processes that I know it will be at least several months, if not several years, before it comes up again, but it will still very likely come up again, I try to find time to write up a Word document. If it is for a process specific to a certain project I put it with that project’s other files, if it is more general (I manage grants for a funding non-profit so there’s a lot of random “hey here’s how to handle this super rare grantee issue” documents) I have a file for “Policies and Processes” on our shared server.

      For short term or one line notes, like “next year’s grant applications should have better instructions on X” I use Google Keep, which is what I graduated to after my system of actual paper post it notes became too difficult to keep track of. The nice thing is Keep has some color coding, so I can make all grant notes orange and all finance notes blue, and searchable, so if I know I made a note on what account code I’m supposed to use for this one annual expense, I just search it and it pops right up. Every so often I scroll through all my notes and clear out the ones that I either have already implemented or which are no longer something I need to keep track of.

    10. epi*

      My most common way for what you are describing is email. That way, the other person has it too.

      I spend about half my time on data management/analysis and half on research program evaluation. Both involve a bunch of little, subjective, decisions that we will need to be able to reference in the future. So when I email someone an important update or deliverable, I put a lot of information in the body of the email. I do this with no expectation that the recipient respond to the details or even read them all. It’s just for future reference. Helpful stuff to have in the email includes where I got the data or information I used, any definitions I used, the path to where my work is saved, and general non-technical descriptions of any obstacles I encountered, what I did about them, and why. Typically it takes a couple of paragraphs unless I am working on something very technical.

      I do this because it’s text searchable later, and everyone has their own copy and can organize it however they want. It’s also what people here tend to give me if they want to fill me in on a decision made before I got here. If you know up front you will need to referenece the email later, or if you find yourself going back to it often, then it makes sense to save it to a shared drive or something as well so it isn’t lost when you leave.

      I also usually make a documentation subfolder for my projects where I put anything that may come in handy– both documentation I was given, and documentation I produced. For data management and programming decisions, I use a mix of comments in the code and a readme in the folder with all the other stuff. If there was a specific issue that took extra investigating and that I think may come up again, I will create a document just for that and put it in the documentation folder, too. As the project progresses, I’ll create other types of documentation as needed. If there is a random piece of information I need to keep track of related to some project, I will just create a .txt file about it in the folder where the project lives, with a descriptive name.

      I write things down but nothing I expect to need more than a week in the future. I honestly couldn’t tell you what is on the last page of my current legal pad, before the page I am using now. For to do lists just for my own use, I sometimes use Google Keep, sometimes a paper list, sometimes my email inbox– I just switch if I find myself starting to ignore one modality. You don’t have to use the same thing forever for it to be a good system.

    11. Autumnheart*

      Do you have some sort of workflow management where you could add notes to a particular task or project?

      Actually, if you happen to use a Mac at work, the app “Punch In” would allow you to do that. I use it to basically time-track my projects, but it has a notes field and might do the trick. If you use Windows, I’m sure there is an app with similar functionality.

    12. iglwif*

      I mostly take notes on paper (in a notebook, so I know where everything is!) but also then transcribe important stuff into to-do lists / issue tickets / future notes / whatever on my computer.

  18. A.Ham*

    Shout out to all my fellow non-profit friends. It’s GALA SEASON! :-O (I know that’s not true across the board, but it’s true for a lot of us).
    My former employer’s gala is this weekend, and my current company’s is next weekend (and the random décor stuff strewed about the building is proof!). AND this past week or so all of my facebook memories seem to be from the many many galas I have worked over the years. I was thinking about it, and I have not had one spring without a gala to work (and in some cases help plan- depending on my job) since I got out of college.
    Who else has a gala planned for spring? How is planning going? Any big goals for this year? Whats your favorite auction item? For those of you that already had yours, how did it go? And most importantly… for those wearing dresses… who else has become best friends with Rent the Runway? :-p Let’s all commiserate about the stress and the fun that goes into planning a mammoth fundraising event!

    1. Cover me in velvet*

      I’m SO GLAD we don’t do galas. Instead, we’re hosting our 21st annual golf tournament. Here in Texas, it should be a good day (but it’s been really rainy lately). Our event manager is 6-mos pregnant, but rocking the prep/planning (her 2nd year doing it) but our new Dev Director is making things entirely too hard (for no reason but to learn and get in the way)

      Glitters….

      1. A.Ham*

        that counts! I was once involved with a small part of planning/volunteer recruitment for a giant charity bike ride. whew that was a lot of work! good luck wit the tournament!

    2. Bluebell*

      My former employer’s was last night. I did some consulting for it- did the seating chart, a part I really enjoy. It was a good event, but last years seemed better. Probably because I was much less involved. My team put a lovely thank you to me in the program. I was really touched!

  19. Dead End Job Search*

    How does one deal with a dead end job search? I currently have a job, and have been job hunting for the past year and still haven’t found anything. I get interviews, which I thoroughly prepare for, and I know I’m qualified for the jobs, but I’m not getting selected in the final stages. I’ve already been rejected by my top 2 choices. I don’t know what else to do now or where else to apply. My current job is going nowhere, and is not exactly what I want to do long term. I’m afraid the longer I stay in this job, the more I will get pigeon-holed, which is something I want to avoid.

    1. Art3mis*

      I have been there. All I can say is just keep on trucking. If you’re able to ask about feedback for your interview, try that.

    2. 1234*

      Finding a job is a difficult process so I would consider giving myself some grace. It’s not you, it’s them. Maybe they thought you didn’t fit into their culture? Maybe they realized they needed someone who had Skill X and are now looking closer at candidates mentioning Skill X? I remember there was an AAM post about how a dream job can turn out not to be so “dreamy” and there’s no way to know. Keep on applying and in the mean time, you have a job and can be more picky about what jobs you apply for/take interviews for.

    3. Sunflower*

      How strict/stingy are you with your applications? My roommate is in a similar situation in that her current job is going nowhere. She just told me she’s been applying for a year and nothing has stuck so she’s realized she needs to drop a few of her requirements of a new job or else she’ll never get out. Not sure what your situation is but it might be beneficial to open up your search to more geographies, industries, etc.

    4. dealing with dragons*

      it might be due to them finding better candidates? that’s been my issue. my job is stuck in 2014 in terms of technology, so trying to find a new technical job is a challenge. I also have issues with trying to laterally move, since people already in that position are also applying.

      can you get any certs or take training in the meantime? that is what I have been doing. there’s saying “I do this on the side as a hobby since I don’t do it professionally” and “here’s the certificate, thanks”

    5. Sherm*

      Been there. Looked for a job for 18 months. At the current job at the time, I usually had absolutely zero to do. It’s not exactly a selling point to put “Figured out how to make time go fast by surfing the web” on the resume.

      But I finally got out. I freelanced a little, got certificates. If that’s not possible for you, perhaps volunteer or take a class. Some of the places that rejected you will have new openings and may be interested in hearing from you again. And remember that you only need one good offer to move on. If your success rate turns out to be 0.001%, that’s great — you’ve got a new job.

    6. LunaLena*

      Are there any skills you can work on that will help you get into the jobs you want? Depending on what field you’re looking into, you may not even need certification, just something you can show to prove you have what they’re looking for. I’d also suggest freelancing or volunteering in the field you’re looking into (again, if that’s an option). For example, I work full-time in graphic design and marketing, but I maintain a few online shops and galleries for designs and art I make in my spare time. It keeps me from stagnating and allows me to use skills I don’t get to use much in my day job, which in turn adds variety to my portfolio and keeps me trying new things and learning.

      TL; DR, I’d recommend trying to find something, even if it’s just a hobby, that you can do to show that you’re moving towards your chosen field, rather than waiting for the opportunity to break into it. Good luck in your job search, I’ve been there and totally understand how frustrating it is!

    7. Sunglasses Emoji*

      Have you tried using a staffing agency? I had a dead-end job search for 6 months. Same as you – I was getting to the second round of interviews, I knew I was qualified, but I just couldn’t quite beat out other candidates. So frustrating. But once I found a good staffing agency in my city, I had an offer within a week!! It was like magic.

  20. Karen from Finance*

    Had a good job interview, though I hate the condescending tone most interviewers from recruiting agencies seem to have. I refused to answer quite a bunch of questions, including my current salary (way below mkt value, followed AMA scripts) and they asked me to tell them which other companies and which role, specifically, I’m interviewing for. They justified the latter question by claiming that it helps avoid any “conflicts of interest with their clients” but I don’t believe them – is there any actual base for that claim? Or am I just defensive because I found the overall interview unusually invasive?

    1. Karen from Finance*

      An example of “the interview was invasive”. I took one year longer to finish my course requirements for my degree, which is not unusual in my country, and I’m still pending my final thesis. When asked about it, I say something like “I was well on my way to finishing my degree with 3 internships completed, then I started a full-time job, and… [looking down with a face that conveys “this is very personal”] things happened – and it didn’t go quite as planned, but I’m really looking forward to finishing my thesis this year so that I can complete the degree”. 95% of interviewers accept this answer. This lady asked me “what things happened?”

      Cancer happened but I would very much like not to disclose this at this point of the interview. So I gave a vague answer and she kept on making questions about the thesis for 10 more minutes, which no actual employer has ever asked me about as much. She made me explain the whole thesis to her. My thesis is not even relevant to my job experience or the job I was interviewing for, where my actual job experience is much more relevant.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        If a recruiter is asking you on the initial interview what companies you’ve applied with I’d be really skeptical. An effective recruiter/candidate relationship needs to be built on trust and the onus is on the recruiter to show the candidate they know what they’re talking about and can actually serve as a value added resource. When I’m talking with a candidate, I rarely, if ever ask a candidate where they have applied unless I have a role that I feel is absolutely tailor made for them. I will however, ask what types of positions they have been applying for so I can get a feel for what the candidate is looking to do as well as figure out if they have realistic expectations. If after a few interactions you feel the recruiter knows their stuff and you feel comfortable disclosing where you’ve applied, then I think that’s ok. The thing is…the better the recruiter, the more they know their respective marketplace and the more likelihood that the recruiter’s clients trust the recruiter to fill their jobs which means the client won’t advertise their jobs on their own. I’m always a bit dubious when I hear other recruiters ask candidates where they’ve applied.

        Good luck in your job search!

      2. Lilysparrow*

        Actually, I am trying to imagine the conversation, and I would probably ask follow-up questions about the “things happened” comment as well. It seems needlessly evasive, and could come off as being shady.

        Like, were you in prison? Did you drop out of school and join a cult? The questions about your thesis could just have been to get a sense of whether it was real.

        If you don’t want to talk about “a health issue that’s now resolved,” then don’t make space for it in the conversation at all.

        “I was on my way to graduate with 3 internships, then I got a full-time job. The timing didn’t work out as planned, so I’ll be finishing my thesis this year.”

        That sounds perfectly normal and doesn’t need more detail. I’m actually kind of surprised nobody else asks follow up questions. But if you’re interviewing a lot and not getting anything, it’s possible they are making note of it anyway.

        There’s just no need to draw a bright red circle around the thing you don’t want to talk about.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Hmmm…

          – The tone wasn’t really drawing a big red circle around it. It was said in a more casual tone than you’re imagining. Imagine someone saying “shit happens” and replace it with “things happen”, adjust for language barrier (my country’s language isn’t English). It doesn’t land so far from the script you provided.

          – But if you’re interviewing a lot and not getting anything, it’s possible they are making note of it anyway.
          That’s quite a leap you made there. I HAVE interviewed a lot, I’m just now starting my current job search, which is complicated because I’m being careful in planning my next move. But I generally do well in interviews. I’m leaving my current job after only 1 year because I’m miserable here (for reasons you can see in other Friday threads), but in my current job search I’ve been offered the only job I’ve interviewed for thus far, and I’ve rejected them because I had some concerns regarding their culture.

          And when I tell you I don’t get a lot of follow-ups, I don’t just mean in interviews, I mean in life, whenever the subject of the big C comes up that I don’t wanna discuss. “Things happened” :) And yes, if I went to prison or joined a cult… does that reflect on me as a professional? No it doesn’t, please and thank you so let’s keep this work-related. I

          1. Samwise*

            If an interviewer tells me “things happened” (or however you are phrasing it but then won’t give details and seems evasive, then yes I am going to consider that and it may count against you, depending on how your interview went and who else is a candidate. If you bring it up, and then wiggle away from it, that’s odd/off putting. Best not to bring it up at all

            2. Karen from Finance*

              You said I brought but up and then wiggled away from it, but the whole thing that I am saying to you is that I gave a non-answer ONCE DIRECTLY ASKED. And if you had been paying any attention at all to what I’ve been saying you’d have noticed that it’s not like there’s a mysterious gap in my resume, I’ve been working and progressing in my career the whole time.

              At this point you’re just being obnoxious.

            3. EtherIther*

              Really? I think that’s unfair. Lots of life events affect when people finish school, and you are NOT entitled to them as an interviewer. You shouldn’t be judging people on things like that.

              Even if she HAD been in prison, that would show up on a background check, and if she HAD joined a cult and gotten out, you’re a jerk for judging someone who was taken advantage of like that!

      3. Darren*

        Your answer is too open.

        Interviewers are trained to probe, they are looking for the things you aren’t telling them as in a lot of cases those things are going to be red flags. An example when this is normally the case
        You – Oh I was working at this job and everything went pretty well
        Them – Did anything go poorly?
        You – Well I did have some issues with other employees.
        Them – What sort of issues?

        And they are going to keep digging there. Your answer to the degree question is just begging for them to try and drill more into the why. There are many possible red flags (or learning experiences) that could be hidden by such a statement like the one you made that they would want to drill for:
        * Did you allocate your time poorly and end up getting behind because you tried to take on too much? If so have you learned from that?
        * Did something unexpected happen? How did you deal with that? Do you think you could have dealt with it better in hindsight?

        You need to close the loop on that question or any decent or better interviewer is going to ask you more questions there looking for those keys.

        How to close the loop is mostly up to you. Personally I’d go with the had some unexpected medical issues spring up that meant you had to take some time off, but you are better now and have been attacking it effectively since then.

    2. Sunflower*

      Some people are just jerks. I had someone from a recruiting agency tell me that she wouldn’t submit me for a job because I wouldn’t tell her my current salary- after she flat out admitted that she wouldn’t know how much to pay me unless she knew what I was making (jaw drop). I stuck to my guns and she told me she has never had someone refuse in the 20 years she’s been a recruiter. I bit my tongue and just said I wouldn’t disclose and if it meant not getting the job, I didn’t want to work there anyway.

      Also- the line about conflicts with clients is complete BS. She is just hoping to get paid. I wouldn’t disclose anything- just lie and say you haven’t applied to any if need be.

    3. irene adler*

      I don’t think you are being defensive.

      I try not to open the “where else are you interviewing” issue ever. At most I give them one name/position. Or, I’ll say that I haven’t interviewed much lately because of other priorities. My take: let’s talk about the jobs you have available right now that fit my interest and skills. Isn’t that the best use of our time together? THEN I’ll tell you if I’ve applied -recently- for a very similar-sounding position. And then we can talk about the identity of their client.

      I know that there is a problem when two recruiters submit the same candidate for the same position. And employers don’t want to sift through the same resume -yours and the one the recruiter submitted. BUT! If the recruiter is going to polish your resume for submission for the position, then why not?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        See, I have another interview on Monday and the other position is much better than the one I was interviewing for today. This is also why I didn’t want to disclose it, I don’t them to interfere. If they contact me about the same position, then I’d tell them.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Past salary is hugely irrelevant and we both know it’s often used to get us to accept a below market salary moving forward. Which is why it’s being made illegal and all that jazz. They’re trying to see if you’re willing to take any bones they throw at you. Instead of seeing if you’re qualified/interested in a position and then giving you a salary range to see if you’re in the same area.

      Recruiters are shady AF and you are not being defensive, you need to trust nobody until they earn it, even if they’re giving you a ‘service’ or assistance like a recruiter is supposed to be providing! It’s supposed to be a mutually beneficial setup.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Oh I have actually seen this from my HR-lady-from-Hell. She set up a meeting on her google calendar for an interview, and set it as public, and put all the candidate info and notes in the meeting details. And I couldn’t help but snoop. She actually wrote in there: “She’s asking for $10, but currently she’s earning $6, so I think we can get her down to $8″. Since then I NEVER say my current, really low, rate.

        It’s disgusting.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          *stabbing noises*

          I

          Just

          CANNOT

          LOL-LETS KEEP THEM IMPOVERISHED CUZ ONE-MOAR-IVORY-BACKSCRATCHER FOR THE CEO!

        2. Kat in VA*

          In one of my interviews when it became clear, I didn’t exactly *lie* about how much I made.

          I simply told them the rate that the company was paying…which was my rate + the temp agency’s rate. I figured if I told them what my rate was, they’d feel justified in offering me a slight bit over that and not a penny more. So I added together the two rates and presented that, and figured I would play dumb if it ever came up (“Well, they told me I was making X an hour and the temp agency was making X an hour, so clearly the company I was working for thought I was worth XX per hour, so…)

          Later, I just sidestepped the question because I figured out that asking my prior salary was an undercutting tactic and I don’t play games. If you’re nickel and diming hard enough that a 10% differential in pay is gonna make or break your company/division/whatever, then I don’t want to work there anyway. I can only imagine what raises and promotions are like at companies like that. :(

      2. Kat in VA*

        Ya the past history thing is, “Wull, you were making $28/hour in your last job, so you should be thrilled to make $29/hour in this one” when the job is advertised at, say, $33-$38/hour or whatever.

        Undercutting folks be undercutting, I guess.

        Although you would think that external recruiters, at least, would want you as high as possible because the more *you* make, the more *they* make, right?

    5. dealing with dragons*

      the “conflict of interest” is so you don’t go to the company’s website and apply not through the recruiter. if they say “hey, I’m recruiting for X position at Acme, Inc.” you conceivably could skip them and go to Acme’s website and directly apply, thus denying them finder’s fees.

  21. NewNewbie*

    I’ve had bad luck with being hired for positions that are “new” (roles that did not exist at a company previously or roles that are an addition to a team). In one new job I got sent home early without pay when things were slow because there wasn’t enough work for me, and in another I got laid off because there wasn’t enough work for me. I really want to stay in a position long-term and have some job security, so I don’t apply to any jobs where the listing mentions that it’s a new position anymore.

    When I do phone screenings, I ask, “Is this a new position, or is someone that’s leaving being replaced?” If they say it’s a new job, I ask if they expect it to be a temp job or a permanent job, what the hours are like, if they expect the new employee to be busy, and if there’s other work the new employee can help with if they finish up with their own work. Sometimes their answers make me feel better about the job and sometimes the answers seem to be red flags.

    Are there better questions I could ask to see how secure a new position would be? Should I be waiting for an in-person interview to ask this stuff?

    I’m wondering because most people don’t seem to mind the questions, but I did a phone screening recently where they seemed irritated and defensive about it and pointed out that my resume was full of temp and short term jobs to explain my “confusion.” I’m not sure if I accidentally came off as rude or interrogative or stupid or what.

    2. 1234*

      The phone screening people – It’s them. If they were that defensive about their “new” position and seemed to point to your temporary jobs as a reason to interview you for them, it sounds like they aren’t really looking for someone long term.

      I agree with you. I once learned that a job was “new” at an organization while I was interviewing with them over the phone. I withdrew my candidacy even though they wanted to move to an in-person interview. I really didn’t feel a connection with that company nor did I get a sense of direction about what they were looking for in the role. The best part was, a few weeks later, they sent me a rejection email saying the role had been filled.

      1. NewNewbie*

        The job ad said it was a full time job, and didn’t say anything about being temporary, so I think they thought I was confused when I asked about the hours, if it was a temp job, etc. They probably thought it was obvious that the job was 40 hours a week and permanent, but it wasn’t obvious to me. (Sometimes companies say a job is “full time” when it’s 25 hours a week, or don’t mention a job is temp to hire, or say the job is in town A when it’s really in town Z, etc.)

        Yes! No sense of a direction for a role makes me totally wary. I feel like some companies have work that needs to get done so they just hire a new person without putting much thought into if the role will be sustainable or how it will grow. I don’t want to be the one to finish a backlog of work and get new efficient systems set up for a few tasks and then run out of work 6 months in.

        1. 1234*

          That’s why I would let someone else “guinea pig” the new position. If the position opens up again in the distant future, and if it still makes sense to apply, go for it. If they filled the position and it opened up again really quickly, I would have major hesitations and wonder why it didn’t work out for that person.

          And you’re right. FT could mean a lot of things. It could mean FT Freelance aka FT hours with no benefits.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Someone who is being shady isn’t going to be honest on this point. I had an interviewer tell me, “Oh we are creating this new position, we had some of the line staff helping out as leadership in the department but we decided we needed a dedicated leader to do that work full-time.”

      It turned out the job was *not* new. They had a dedicated leader for 8 years who took a promotion, then a dedicated leader for 18 months who that utterly psycho boss had tortured out of the position, and within 5 days of me being there she started in on harassing me out.

      1. NewNewbie*

        Holy crud! I’m so sorry. That’s terrible that they lied about the position being new to avoid saying the last person left because of a psycho boss. ): I hope you got a new job quickly!

    4. MissGirl*

      Sounds like you’ve had some bad luck that isn’t necessarily indicative of the larger market. We’re hiring five people into new roles this month, doubling our team. Our department is growing and we have a crazy amount of work. I might find your questions a little odd, especially the first one. Most companies are very clear if something is permanent, temp, or contract. Asking about the hours so soon may come as you not wanting to work hard.

      I would ask more about the department, what the position would entail, why they created the position, what they want to see the candidate accomplish. And, yes, it might be best to wait for the second interview, not the phone screen. The phone screen is more of a broad interview to see if there’s a basic match between candidate and the company. Also a lot of phone screens are with the recruiter, and they wouldn’t have the answers you need.

      1. Frankie*

        Yeah, I think sometimes a new position can be risky because the job can morph a lot if people weren’t clear about what they needed…but that kind of scope creep happens in established jobs, too…and sometimes that dynamic can be to your benefit because it means you get experience with more diverse types/areas of work.

        OP, it does sound like you had bad luck, but I’m thinking back now over my career and I’ve actually never once seen a new role hired for and then downsized that quickly. So I think you’re right to ask questions and be cautious, but I wouldn’t assume this is a standard thing. YMMV depending on your field of course. MissGirl, I think all your questions are spot on.

      2. JulieCanCan*

        Totally agree about the question about the hours. When I was in a position where recruiting was one of my responsibilities, that question always made my hackles go up. Definitely hold off. If you want a job badly enough I’d resist asking about hours, up until you land the role and need to figure out what time to arrive the first day.

    5. Hannah*

      I think I might pull back on those specific questions and just ask, “What lead you to decide to create this position” and then use their answer to launch into why you can solve the problems that they are trying to solve with having someone in the role (while also getting information about whether or not they have thought out the role fully and are clear about what they need).

      I think that would mask the “interrogation” feel of those questions while still getting you the same (or better) information.

  22. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    Happy Friday to all!

    I’d like to hear from mothers who had their kid(s) while having a career which requires travel. (I say mothers because, let’s face it, fathers don’t experience the same physical or career repercussions from becoming a parent.) I’ve been in my current role as a university fundraiser for almost a year, and I’m thinking of having my first kid in the next 16-18 months. In addition to all the normal worries about becoming a parent, maternity leave, cost of daycare, etc, I’m really uncertain about how it will be possible to have a job where I’m expected to spend 5-8 nights away from home per month, while raising an infant. I’m married and my partner doesn’t travel, so at least I don’t have to worry about overnight care or transport to/from daycare.

    In particular, I’m curious to hear how folks have handled being away from the job for 3 months (or however long) in a goal-based environment, as well as whether/how the organization accommodated soon-to-be and new mothers who weren’t able to travel in the late stages of pregnancy and shortly after giving birth.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Celeste*

      To me the hardest part is how many days at a stretch are you going to be out of town? I’m thinking about it in case you are considering breastfeeding. The logistics of trying to bank milk for longer trips while keeping up your supply are daunting with longer absences. Plus you’d have to travel with a pump. I wonder if you could negotiate shorter trips or no travel for a period of time after you return.

      1. blackcat*

        One of my colleagues uses MilkStork to deal with this–milk gets overnighted back so she only needs 2-3 days worth at home. It’s $$$$ but sometimes you can expense it.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          What a great program! Unfortunately I highly doubt I could expense it in my current organization, but wouldn’t it be amazing if that became a standard benefit for parents!

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Fortunately I set my own travel schedule and I can conceivably restrict it to 1-2 night trips for the first few months, but breastfeeding is one of my biggest concerns!

        1. Frankie*

          If you’re lucky enough to have a plentiful supply it might be less stress than you think. You won’t have to pump nearly as often. If you have supply issues the absences will make it trickier, but you could do a blend of breastfeeding and formula supplementing and still be able to sustain some level of breastfeeding.

          Honestly, I would still recommend restricting night trips to that level even without breastfeeding. I wouldn’t have wanted to be separated from my infant like that early on. Even the separation of day care felt like way, way too much for the first couple of months. And I’m not just talking cognitively or emotionally–I felt a bodily to be back with my infant that was hard to process when I returned to work. Not to say I didn’t do it or shouldn’t have done it, it just made it hard.

          If you feel any work guilt about it, I would frame it in your head as a medical need. If you are able and choose to breastfeed, then that’s a medical need for both you and your infant. And your infant has a medical need to be near you in those early months. That helped me compare myself more to coworkers who have various types of physical accommodations, for instance.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      Having a supportive spouse or partner is key. The work I do requires a bit of travel, and the amount depends on whatever project I’m working on at the moment. My daughter is 10, and my husband has always been great about handling things at home when I’m traveling. I know other women whose husbands give them grief for traveling, and it’s just horrible and stressful.

      My job now requires me to be away from home 3 nights every 3-4 weeks

      The upside: I enjoy the peace, quiet, and downtime that comes with having your own hotel room to unwind in at the end of the day. It’s nice not to have to worry about what to cook for dinner every night. I can watch whatever I want on TV. And, I work mostly from home so a couple days of human interaction is good for me. Plus I keep accruing frequent flyer miles and hotel points.

      The downside: I don’t usually eat very well when I travel, lots of takeout or heavy indulgent foods that I would normally only have once in awhile. And I’m not good about exercising either, even when I bring workout clothes with me. I realize those downsides are all on me, but they are downsides all the same.

      Hardest of all is accepting that you might not be able to be there for your kid when they need you, and not beating yourself up for it when it does happen. I live in Denver, and the school shooting there earlier this week is in our school district, about 5 miles from my daughter’s school. We know people whose kids go there. It’s been difficult not being able to be there for her except for video chatting on WhatsApp. We talked for over an hour the other night because she was feeling sad and scared about what happened. I’m glad that technology let us see each other while we were talking, but nothing beats a real-live hug.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thank you so much for sharing! Fortunately my husband is very supportive and recognizes that the work I do (including travel) is the reason we can afford our mortgage ;P I’m so sorry for what you guys are going through in CO right now (I don’t live there but travel there often). I know I’ll feel guilty for being away from my kid(s), especially when stuff like that happens.

    3. NewWorkingMama*

      I was able to majorly negotiate a no-travel clause for a few months after I came back. It takes a minute to catch your breath and get back into the rhythm so that can be really helpful if you can do it! For the nursing, if that’s the way you decide to go, that can be super challenging but definitely check out Milk Stork for shipping milk back. I cut way back on travel, but I also do pickup and dropoff for daycare so the logistics are really complicated. The other thing I found helpful was talking to other moms at the company on how they handled things, it can be a really helpful guide for what your experience might be like! That being said, if you have a reasonable boss, you might be able to get away with saying….this is what I need. Good luck!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thanks for your insight! I’m the youngest person on my team and the only woman of childbearing years, so I think I’d be the first person in a long time to become a parent in this role. Unfortunately I only know of two younger women with young kids who had them here, and their work is structured differently than mine so their experiences won’t necessarily translate…plus I’m afraid to start the rumor mill by asking anyone about their experience with maternity leave.

        That said, I’m a valued member of the team and I’m planning to bust my ass to bring in big numbers in the next year, so they’ll have no choice but to let me do what I want!

    4. Sled dog mama*

      Wow only 5-8 nights a month? I was on 50% travel a few years ago when my second arrived.
      My best advice is at your first dr appointment after becoming pregnant (or before if you’re happy with your dr) talk about the travel. My doctor was willing to let me travel a lot later into pregnancy because it was part of a routine that I’d been doing for months before getting pregnant. I was traveling between Ohio and Montana so I was flying with a short drive on either end, my OB and I came up with some ground rules like I had to pick 1 hour plus connections for my flights and I had to walk (no sitting around at a gate) between flights. Remember that your travel will almost certainly stop before the baby actually arrives so develop a plan with your supervisor for who will cover your out of town work starting then, but also you need a plan for if you get placed on bed rest or travel restrictions earlier. My company had one person who
      If you plan to breast feed after returning to work you’ll want to work hard on building up a stock pile of expressed milk while on leave and look into the milk shipping services. There are a few companies (I only know of US ones) that will provide a kit for shipping frozen breast milk home while on business travel. Alternatively if you are only gone for an overnight or are traveling by car you can carry a cooler and many cold packs and make sure you stay in hotels with room fridges.
      As far as the work/life balance aspects, I’ve got very little advice since I am lucky enough to have a stay at home partner. One thing I will point out is that you both need to make sure you get decompression time as the baby grows up. My partner and I had some trouble with this since he was home all day I would rush home to take over child care and give him a break then I would take care of evening an bedtime and Id spend all weekend with him and our daughter so he got a break to just do nothing but I rarely got the same time not having to be “on”.

      1. Sled dog mama*

        Ugh, my company had one person who was hired specifically to do coverage for our single person sites so that part was pretty easy for me.

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thank you so much for sharing! I’ve thought that I probably won’t be able to travel in late pregnancy, but it didn’t occur to me that some women are put on bedrest or travel restrictions earlier…yikes. If you don’t mind me asking, how far along were you when you told you boss?

    5. Ranon*

      Corporette Moms might be another site to ask for advice on, I know there’s a lot of folks with highly demanding jobs on there if you wind up looking for more input.

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      Having a supportive spouse who doesn’t travel is HUGE! The first four years of being a mom I regularly spent 4-6 nights away at a stretch (conferences) several times a year. I missed a few while on mat leave, but we planned my replacements several months out. My mom stepped in to help a few times but my husband did the bulk of it and it was pretty seamless once he got the hang of it (we split kid duty from the get-go so he wasn’t shouldering this out of nowhere.) Once he started traveling things were MUCH harder and I then transitioned back to teaching which has zero travel.

      My work was really supportive, which was surprising because so few people (and none of my bosses) had children. I found myself pregnant by surprise but everyone was really understanding. I kind of expected the best and for the most part, things were okay. You can do it! It’s not easy, but it can be done.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        That’s so great to hear! Thanks for the kind words and the support :)

    7. FS*

      I traveled a lot starting when my son turned one, and haven’t stopped since. If you have a supportive partner this will go a LOOOONG way. But I also made it work here and there for longer trips by having my mom or husband join me with the baby. I don’t do that anymore now kiddo is older. Even with a lot of familial support though, significant travel is really challenging and you just expect a certain level of stress and juggling to accommodate, in my experience.

    8. Career mom*

      Originally my job involved occasional travel, but that has morphed into twice-monthly trips away from home. I had my son 18 months into my job, he’s 5 now. A few things I’ve learned:
      – having a partner who doesn’t travel and can handle daily pickup/dropoffs is essential
      – nearby family to pinch-hit in emergencies is also super helpful (my MIL is all we have and she moved closer to us, thank goodness)
      – the early years (breastfeeding, diapers etc.) are emotionally harder, but the primary school years are proving logistically more challenging. Infants don’t have karate practice or school plays, which you inevitably miss and feel horribly guilty about.

      My partner used to make more but now I do, by quite a lot, so he’s come to accept the travel as a necessity. Honestly, and I hear this a lot, it sometimes means one parent has to have a job and the other has a career. A career will ask more of you, but reward you with more in return. I don’t think we could manage as well as we do if my husband’s job was as demanding as mine.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        This is such a helpful insight. It’s interesting, we already have the one career/one job dynamic; we’ve moved across the country and back for my career, whereas he is the kind of person who’d rather have a job that pays the bills and allows him to have a fulfilling home life. Hopefully that bodes well for when we start our family!

    9. snack_attack*

      I can’t comment from the mother’s side but I can comment on the child of a mother who’s career has required travel as part of the job. She was fortunate that she was at a firm which was very understanding and flexible to the needs of a working mother with 2 children, and she worked remote most of the time with occasional trips. Even when she had business trips, she was still able to schedule around many important events for us, like game days for sports teams and graduations. I am now a young professional myself, and she is now a high-level member of the firm with international travel on a monthly basis.

      This may not be useful to your question, but I hope that it can give you confidence that you absolutely CAN be a great mother and pursue a successful career!

    10. AcademiaNut*

      I don’t have kids, but I do work in a field that can be travel heavy.

      What happens here – travel commitments during the last few months of pregnancy are generally redistributed, or shifted to video conferences for meetings. These come with months of warning, so it’s easier to do than if someone had a sudden health or family emergency that made travel impossible. We also have some travel that cannot be done while pregnant for safety reasons (high altitude work), so that would be shifted to other people. When it comes to maternity leave – lots of preparation and arranging shifting of duties to other people, and in my field, making sure your postdocs and students are well taken care of while you’re away. It’s also pretty common to monitor your email while on leave, for critical, time sensitive stuff (if only to turn down requests in a timely fashion). Some of these things are linked to the person, not the position, so they can’t be responded to by anyone else.

      With the travel – one of the biggest things is having the father be an equal partner in caring for the baby. If you’ve got a situation where Mom takes care of the kids, dad ‘helps’ and Mom also travels a lot something is going to break (usually Mom). If the kid is used to being fed a bottle by Dad in the middle of the night, and being prepped for daycare, and put to bed by him, it will go a lot more smoothly than a sudden change in care when you’re away. If you husband has access to any sort of paternal leave, have him take all of it as you’re going back to work (also – can he take FMLA to be at home while you’re getting back to work?). Also, hire help if you need it while you’re away.

      The big thing, of course, is breast milk. If the kid’s at daycare, they’ll be used to bottles. There’s pumping and freezing the extra for while you’re away, supplementing with formula, and weaning earlier than you might otherwise. (A lot of our travel is international, so mailing back breast milk is not an option). For longer trips, sometimes women have a family member or babysitter travel with them, so they can take the baby, and the babysitter brings them to Mom for feeding, and looks after them in the hotel room during the day.

  23. BRR*

    How do you deal with the anxiety of your employer making a big change that is likely going to have large, negative financial consequences? It was announced this week that we are making a huge change in how we do things and I’m really concerned it’s going to devastate the overall budget. There aren’t many details right now (possibly because this decision was rushed and not thought through) but I’m worried that ultimately as a cost saving measure my job will be eliminated. I’m looking for a new job and have been for awhile but I’m in a more niche field. In the meantime, what have people done when their employer is probably ruining its business model?

    1. Auburn*

      Do they have a history of making rash poorly thought out business decisions? Is it possible they just haven’t communicated about the change we’ll and you can ask some clarifying questions?

    2. JokeyJules*

      The general advice i hear for dealing and coping with anxiety is to control the things you can control.

      So keep looking for jobs and doing the job your currently have as best you can, perhaps employ some extra strategies to save money. that’s all that you can control.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Remind yourself that the employer has a lot more wiggle room in that “budget” than you’ll ever know about.

      We have a budget, any responsible business has one but it’s a baseline of what to expect. But if a machine goes up in flames [not literally, since that’s covered by insurance], we’re going to buy one and it’s not going to mean laying someone off to be able to afford it. We have a reserve, we aren’t making any decisions that we’re not aware of the costs about.

      Unless you’re in an executive position, you’re worrying about something that you’re very unaware of the literal numbers and reserve banks.

  24. JokeyJules*

    Maintenance in my building just came over the fire alarm speakers to announce that there is a certain car parked in the building garage and they need to move it.

    is that legal? It legitimately came out of the red fire alarm speaker on the wall that they use to announce fire drills or announce testing of the fire alarm system.

        1. JokeyJules*

          It’s extraordinarily loud and disruptive since it is supposed to be used in the event of an emergency

          also, I don’t want that to become a regular thing, announcing that a Gray ford focus is parked in a spot assigned to someone else to the entire building with over 1500 people working out of it.

      2. JokeyJules*

        Because it’s the fire alarm system, not a general use PA system. They were using it as a general us PA system. The car was just in a spot that isn’t assigned to them, not in a fire lane or creating an emergency or obstacle to emergency services.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          It sounds like it is both a fire alarm system and a general use PA system, then. Why can’t it be both?

        2. RandomU...*

          I’d let it go. Perhaps the guy made a mistake to what system he used. I can ask someone I know if it’s against the law, but even if it is, how would you use this information?

          In other words, if you have a general PA system and they guy used that instead of the fire system, wouldn’t it still be loud and disruptive?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. People use the system they know. Security may only have access to the fire system and not the PA system. Also, it could have been an actual emergency. The car could have been blocking a fire exit or the like.

        1. Auntie Social*

          And they’re doing the Ford owner a kindness by not just having the car towed. In my city that’s really expensive.

    3. Psyche*

      I don’t think that there are legal restrictions on what the speaker attached the the fire alarm system is allowed to be used for. That is most likely up to building management unless otherwise specified in the lease.

    4. Anono-me*

      I would be very surprised if it was illegal. However I understand your concern that it is disruptive. Can you suggest a new sop where an interoffice all email is sent when there’s something of this nature?

      1. Lilysparrow*

        If it’s time-sensitive, an email isn’t a good solution. Lots of people don’t check email while they’re in meetings or at lunch.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      In some jurisdictions there are regulations about when and for what purpose the fire alarm speakers can be used.

      But not because it’s loud and disruptive. The rules (where they exist) are about emergency equipment use, leaving it free for actual emergencies, that kind of thing.

      Occasional loud noises and announcements in the office that annoy people are not a legal issue.

      How long have you worked there? If it’s never happened before, it’s probably just a mix-up.

      If you’re concerned about your work being disrupted, I doubt that devoting time to track down applicable local regs or get the maintenance guys in trouble is a good use of your time.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It’s a legal use… but equally fair to point out that they REALLY don’t want to train you to ignore it. And that the intentionally high volume of a voice evacuation system is disruptive to business operations, and potentially the decibel levels are high enough to make the system unsafe for use as the daily PA system.
      This is my industry.

  25. Fortitude Jones*

    Today is my last day at my current job and my 32nd birthday – the timing of this couldn’t be better. I think this is the best gift I could have gotten – on Monday, I will start working fully remote from home and making 26% more than I currently do! I’m so excited. I got my work laptop last night and everything seems to be set up properly, and next weekend, I’ll be flying out to Florida to join my new team at a conference in Orlando. I can’t wait for this new beginning.

    Good luck to all those still job searching – I know how much it sucks. It does eventually get better, though. Hang in there, folks.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Thank you, everyone, for the birthday and well wishes! I appreciate it – my day has been great so far :) I’m going to get drunk with friends after work and to a musical after, so I anticipate the rest of my day will be fantastic as well.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      Congrats! I’m always so jealous when I hear about completely remote jobs. I must be in the wrong field or I just don’t know how to search for those kind of jobs because I never come across them.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you! I, too, had the hardest time finding fully remote jobs (I’ve been looking for years), but I’ve been seeing a lot more proposal development jobs posted recently from major companies, so I’m glad people are beginning to make that switch. Honestly, I write all day long – I don’t need to be in anybody’s office to do that. I’m glad that companies are starting to realize the potential benefits and cost savings of having their workforce work out of their own homes.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you so much – it really was! I’m going to miss my close work friends, but I’m so happy to finally have the flexibility and freedom to do my work when and where I want to. As someone with various chronic illnesses, some of which are very nasty and require me to be in the bathroom for hours at a time, this is a godsend. I really hope this works out because if it does, that will be amazing. My new boss has been with the company for 21-22 years, she’s fully remote as well, so I have high hopes!

  26. Dr. BOM*

    Hey, all.

    I’m at a pretty good point in my career. I’m almost 5 years into this position, and given that I was the first person in my role, I’ve shaped things & set expectations in a pretty serious way. However, I still find myself rather lacking in regards to what is becoming an increasingly important skill: estimating effort.

    Up until recently, my department has worked in a semi-independent fashion from the computer engineers, mostly reacting to changes that they’ve driven. But in (what I believe to be) a positive turn, we’re going to be working much more closely with them. The issue is – they require pretty reliable estimates of effort that goes into work. In the past, I usually just try to overestimate and deliver ahead of schedule, but the engineering department needs more accuracy on that front.

    Can any of you folks recommend any good strategies for doing a better job of estimating how long it’ll take me to complete a task?

    1. Gem*

      Do you have a way of finding how long it took you to do tasks previously? If so you can use that as a base of how long certain tasks take and you can go from there

    2. Angwyshaunce*

      The two things I’ve learned about estimating time for my projects:
      1) Use experience as my guide to estimate roughly how long it will take; and
      2) Scale that estimate up by a factor to account for reality, the unknown, and the misguided optimism from #1 (my factor is x2).
      Tweak these numbers as needed until the estimates approach reality.

    3. Ranon*

      The best tactic I know of is to keep good track of your estimated time and then actual time used so you can continue to refine your estimates. It can be helpful to practice with small tasks or defined portions, too, so you develop building blocks you can put together for future projects.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Take into account both time and complexity. Effort is technically both those things, though the calculation outcome you’re usually giving is time based.

      So you could have a VERY simple task that takes 20 hours of work, but it’s mindless and easy. So not a lot of effort, just a lot of time. Or you could have a task that will only take an hour but is ridiculously complicated or touches a ton of different pieces. Typically time and complexity go up together, but not always.

      Then assign values for both time and complexity to your standard tasks. How long does this task USUALLY take you? How complex a task is it? Use those known tasks as a benchmark for estimating new tasks. The more unknowns involved in a new task, the higher the estimate should be.

      Google around for articles on estimating effort/hours in Agile – agile framework does this kind of exercise ALL THE TIME. There will be a lot of tips out there, and you can experiment to see what works best for you.

    5. LPUK*

      I’ve got a lot better than this since I started consulting and had to produce timesheets. I broke down projects into smaller elements and made sure I reported time against those. On the same sheet I started keeping a running total by element, so I could see what time it took and from then on I had the building blocks for estimating any new projects eg stakeholder interviews – from 1 to 1.5 days depending on number. At the end of every job, I dump all the timings into an estimates file and it’s then all together and easy to review when I am planning a new job. Also, if your work product involves other people, add a healthy margin for holidays/ conferences/ meetings to the overall timings

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      Break the task into its component pieces. List all of them. (And don’t miss the small bits.)

      Estimate how long it takes for the small bits and add/multiply it up. Use past experience where possible.

      Note any work which has a dependency on someone else and note as a risk to your timings.

      Finally, add contingeny and don’t credit yourself with full hours to devote! Devs in our sprint work 7.5 hours/day but burndown assigns work based on 6 hours/day, because that is realistic (100% impossible anyway, bau, meetings, etc).

  27. Latkas, please*

    So I am likely starting a job on June 24, but am supposed to be on vacation June 10-14&17. I have things I need to finish for a different department and my department and overall HR is known for being retaliatory to those putting in notice. When should I give notice? Any advice? I’ll try like hell to finish up my one project by June 7, including having it reviewed and approved in case they axe me for putting in notice but… what’s the best way to approach this knowing what I know?

    1. Natalie*

      my department and overall HR is known for being retaliatory to those putting in notice.

      Is there some particular reason you need to protect them from their own bad decisions? If they cut your notice period short and you can’t finish the project, that sounds an awful lot like a them problem, not a you problem.

      1. Latkas, please*

        Not protecting them. Protecting my former manager (I was a single type of employee in an organization of 200, so when I switched to a different department with her blessing, she and I became close friends and the item outstanding is something I am finishing due to my experience in my former capacity that came along well after we thought those issues came to an end).

        1. Natalie*

          That still doesn’t make it primarily your concern. It’s unfortunate if the organization’s overall dysfunction creates a problem for your former manager, but the responsibility for that lies at the feet of the organization. It isn’t necessary or even possible for you to take on that burden yourself. It is not something you can control.

          Assuming being walked early wouldn’t cause you a financial burden, take “finishing this project” out of the equation and give whatever the normal amount of notice for your field/level is.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Would your boss help? Can you say ‘I’m leaving on X date, I’ve already talked to Boss and she says we should be able to finish two projects”, and have boss promptly send HR a memo saying basically the same thing? “Latkes says she’s leaving and we have arranged to complete A and B projects, I dont want anything to interfere with her end date as these projects are important”.

    3. Zephy*

      You say “likely” starting a job on June 24 – does that mean you don’t have an offer in writing yet? Don’t give notice until you do have that, at least.

      Are you more worried about leaving work unfinished (leaving a bad last impression, burning bridges, making your former-manager-now-friend sad)? Or is your primary concern that if you give notice 6/7, HR will turn around and just terminate you on the spot, so the 6 days of PTO you had booked won’t pay out, and you’re counting on that money?

    5. AnonPi*

      You say you are “likely” starting a job on June 24th. If you don’t have a firm offer then say nothing until you do for one. And remember notices are a courtesy and to avoid burning bridges, there’s no time requirement for giving notice. If you can still get a good reference out of your former manager for instance, then I wouldn’t worry so much about the company and probably wait til June 18/19th to give notice if they’re likely to retaliate/fire you on the spot.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d do June 2. If you’ve got health insurance coverage there and they walk you out the door that day, it may be effective through the end of the month – which would be better than having it cut off at the end of May if you give your notice earlier. And your vacation can count as part of your notice for sure. If they behave badly around accepting notice, they have no right to expect any better kind of notice from you. In fact, you could just give your notice the day before your vacation and let the chips fall where they may.

      IF you think your former boss can be trusted you could MAYBE give her a heads up first. But I would be SUPER WARY about attempting that.

      1. Latkas, please*

        It’s actually because of my former boss (Director) and her boss (managing director turned SVP) that I got this job. They were my references and this is a govt-to-govt transition. It’s been a rough five years here and I’m leaving because once I came into the department I’m in now, I’m like the company go-to person if that person never wants anything for being the go-to and they know that’s why I’m leaving. My former boss advised me not to put in notice (she’s been here over 15 years) just yet. I have, since this morning, accepted the position and got the ball rolling with the offer and paperwork. I stated “might start June 24” because I wasn’t sure if I’d ask for July 1 instead, which I didn’t do because they actually asked me for May 28 (too soon), June 10 (vacation) and then June 24. It was cool of them to accommodate that gap of time so I let it alone. I’m super excited about this position, and while I understand that what I’m worried about isn’t all on me, and I’m working on ways to make sure there’s no employment gap/missed paychecks, I can’t be sure and I worry about everything. Thanks for your advice guys. I appreciate your responses.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Well, since the new company has been extremely accommodating of your schedule so far, I wouldn’t push it again by asking for another extension – they already did so three times. Therefore, you need to bite the bullet and put in your notice June 10 at the latest so you give your current employer the proper two weeks. It sucks because you’ll be on vacation and will need to do this over the phone, then send them a signed resignation letter all while you’re supposed to be out, but that’s life – sometimes, things aren’t always convenient.

  28. Murphy*

    I’m in that awkward stage where I interviewed last week and then this week was given background check paperwork to fill out (which they don’t do unless they want you) but I obviously haven’t been offered anything yet. I’m keeping up with my work (and continuing to look at other jobs, because it’s not official til it’s official!) Here’s my question. My boss wants me to set up some meetings between he and I and 10 other departments on campus as “listening tours” where we can get feedback, suggestions about what we can do better, etc. I think this is a great idea, but since I’m likely leaving, I’m not sure that I should be the one doing this. These 10 meetings will take some time to set up especially since it’s a university and things can be slow in the summer. He’s given me no timeline on this. Should I go ahead and start setting up some of these meetings, or should I focus on other work and hold off so he and my eventual replacement can do this?

    1. RandomU...*

      Proceed as if you are staying for 100 years. As you say you don’t know what is going to happen so it’s just best to go on like there isn’t a new shiny job in your future until you get the offer.

    2. Anono-me*

      Seconding the proceed like this is your Forever Employer with planning the meetings and everything else. However maybe suggest times when you’re most likely replacement doesn’t already have meetings scheduled. For example if you know that Fergus is going to be the one to step up and fill your shoes when you leave and he has a 10 am meeting every Tuesday, don’t schedule new meetings then.

      1. Murphy*

        I mean whoever they hire next. I’m a team of one, so I have no idea who’s going to pick up my slack after I leave.

        1. Samwise*

          Don’t worry about it, then. Start the ball rolling — first step is contacting everyone to see what their prefs are, yes? You’re going to have to balance that out anyway. Then start working on the schedules. If you’re gone and the schedule doesn’t work for whoever is taking over, then they can reschedule. It’s the same as with anything that’s gonna happen when/if you leave. One thing you could do proactively is to write out your plans for how these meetings are supposed to go, drafting questions, procedures/follow ups, timeline, how you expect to analyze the data, format for the report, etc. Thats going to be useful for you if you stay, and for your boss and replacement if you don’t.

          1. JulieCanCan*

            Yes, just proceed as if you will be there for the next 5+ years. No need to put anything on pause or delay – just do everything as normal until you don’t work there. Even if you give notice, you’re going to be doing your job until you leave it – work doesn’t halt at the time of giving notice.

            Good luck, I hope you get a job that you really want!

  29. Miss M*

    Hello, I wrote a while back: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/11/open-thread-november-16-17-2017.html#comment-2230549 Thank you for the encouragement on that post!

    I’m almost 6 months at this job and it hasn’t gotten any better (in fact, in moments it’s gotten worse.) I’ve applied for a few jobs in between now and then but it’s been a combo of my job being so busy + a bit paralyzed by fear. I have been really good about networking and finding supports in my new city. I started doing roller derby too for an outlet.

    The good side of things, my job duties itself are pretty great. If it wasn’t for the toxic culture and team, I would totally stay. I’ve written my first grant and won it (truly shocked), I’m leading a state initiative, and I’m getting to present at a conference next month.

    On the flip side, last night my boss and I were driving back to the office from a meeting and I mentioned missing my parents back home. She then said “God, if you say you’re leaving before two years I’m going to literally kill you, you understand?” *cue nervous laughter from me and quiet chuckling from her* I know she’s not serious but combined with everything else happening on my team, it’s a bit unsettling.

    If in the future I get an interview and offer (I feel hesitant that I will because I’ve been here for 6 months) OH I AM DREADING what to say to my boss. I’m truly afraid she’s going to throw something at me. Anyways. Just venting here. I’m so grateful for this site and all the commenters here!

    1. Rainy days*

      You don’t owe it to her to stay for two years if the culture is toxic. In fact, if you get another job you should feel extra good about leaving someone who makes death threats, even as a joke.

    2. Green Goose*

      It’ll probably be awkward, especially since your boss seems a bit dramatic and unprofessional based on the story, but it’ll be okay. I had to leave a toxic job about six years ago after only working there for five months when they hired me expecting me to work there for a few years. My coworkers made similar type comments after I gave my notice, like “you better sleep with one eye open” (they were joking but there was a hint of truth because they knew the owner would be so mad and it made me so anxious). And yes, telling her was very awkward and she was very passive-aggressive after I gave notice, but…

      Once I left I was so relieved! It was the best decision and any awkwardness, unprofessional behaviour by my boss during my notice period was worth not working there anymore. Good luck!!

    3. Someone Else*

      “Why are you leaving your current position?”
      “My manager said she’d literally kill me.”
      “O…..K.”

  30. Kramerica Industries*

    How much can I push back on not wanting to work with a coworker on a project? The issue is not the coworker. My boss originally said he wanted me on the project with Joe because Joe is new (1 month) and I could be useful in guiding him. The thing is, I’m also new to the team (3 months), but have already proven I know how to do the work. On an assignment we just worked together, a senior coworker essentially blamed Joe for not following the process right, when it was actually a system bug and out of his control. I’m afraid that working on a project together will further this mistrust in Joe’s work and that he won’t get a chance to grow if they keep coming to me if things go wrong instead of having him work it out.

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      To attack the issue another way (rather than not working with Joe), could you (a.) ask Joe to try working things out before coming to you, or when he does come to you ask him if he’s tried to work it out first, and (b.) correcting the record to whomever is hearing senior coworkers complaints? I don’t necessarily think asking not to work with someone, for what sounds like a good reason (guiding Joe) in the first three months at a new job is a great idea, but perhaps others disagree.

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        He’s a competent worker. I’ve seen him ask the right questions and get through issues. I think my managers are quick to judge him when things go wrong instead of believing that it wasn’t his fault. I don’t want to get caught in the middle of this…last time, they pulled me aside to tell me about an issue with his work. I asked Joe and all the steps seemed right. It was only when I said that I didn’t think that this was a worker issue that they discovered it was a system bug. I don’t want to be a crutch for their control issues instead of them working it out with Joe directly.

        1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

          Gotcha. Sounds like a sticky situation and I hope you’re able to resolve it.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Head it off at the pass by reminding your boss “remember when X went wrong and some people/Mr. Howell thought it was Joe’s fault? What do we do if that happens again? I know YOU give us the benefit of the doubt, but will you remind Mr. Howell and the skipper that it could just as easily be a system bug??” I think you should work with Joe–you two working together have more credibility than just Joe alone. And afterwards you can praise Joe’s qualities of X and Y to anyone who will listen.

  31. ell emm ess*

    Dress code question: how do you deal with the matter of “appropriateness” when your office has no dress code? My partner (a woman) is an executive at a tech firm with no dress code (although one male employee was once sent home to change into something other than sweatpants with a giant hole in the crotch). There is a young woman who works there whose clothing choices fall into the category of what feels like beyond inappropriately too short, too tight, too full of cutouts, should really be wearing a bra with that top, too much like club-wear, etc., for even an informal work environment. It’s sort of hard to quantify, but it’s one of those you-know-it-when-you-see-it things. And, to make matters even more fun, this employee tends to react to any sort of critical feedback with hostility. Any advice on dealing with a situation like this?

    TL;DR: How do you tell an employee, “If your pants are so tight that the outline of your labia are visible, they are not work-appropriate?”

      1. ell emm ess*

        I’m pretty sure a dress code won’t happen, but even if it did, how would you write it to address the – and I am being completely serious here – so-tight-I-can-see-your-labia pants?

        1. Semaj*

          Why would a dress code not happen when you obviously have a business need for it? Sending employees home to change because they lack the common sense to not come to work with holes in their crotch is a waste of everyone’s time. A bare bones, simple to follow dress code that only applies the common sense discretion your employees should have seems like an easy win. You’re not ruling out jeans or insisting they polish their shoes or anything.

          You will be hard-pressed to address this with her in any way if you don’t have any sort of policy to follow. To address something like this, I think it would fall under some soft statement like “Employees are expected to demonstrate good judgement in their business attire. We expect that your business attire, while casual, will exhibit common sense and professionalism.” If she continues to wear skin tight clinging clothes, it’s going to be an uncomfortable thing to address but at least you’ll have a policy to point to.

          1. ell emm ess*

            A dress code won’t happen because the ultimate deciders of such things don’t see the need for one and don’t want one because it’s not cool to have one at a tech startup and blah blah blah. They’re also rarely on the same floor as she is, and as good-but-also-sort-of-clueless-about-such-things dudes, they don’t really get it.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              She could point out that a dress code is the easiest way to avoid a sexual harassment lawsuit when Madamoiselle Tight Pants starts the big 2020 trend for “cold hips” to go with cold shoulders… Or when the male execs have an employee about whom they’re tempted to say “some people shouldn’t wear leggings.”

      2. Nanc*

        Ah, the big Introducing Our Dress Code production number from Ask a Manager: The Musical!
        In our current offices
        the state of dress permitted
        may vary from your previous jobs
        but when it comes to trouser fitting–
        no Camel Toe! No Moose Knuckle!
        Not even for a chuckle or a laughhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

        (brought to you by a Benedryl high and lack of caffeine. Curse you, allergy season!)

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I’m not sure you need a formal dress code in place to ask an employee to adjust to work appropriate clothing, as long as you’re willing to give some guidance on what that means.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      “Valencia, I know we do not have an official dress code policy, but I still need you to come to work in clothing that is professional, not better suited for a nightclub. The pants you wore yesterday are not appropriate for the office, so please do not wear them to work going forward.”

    4. Media Monkey*

      is she in a position where she could been seen as a sort of mentor? maybe take her for lunch or a coffee and suggest that although there isn’t a dress code, it can be hard for women especially younger women to be taken seriously, and sometimes being more conservative than the dress code can work well. with a “this sucks but it is the reality of work” attitude?

      1. ell emm ess*

        She’s not. She’s also a really difficult and defensive person in general, and tends to think that because she’s smart, she can do whatever she wants. I’d imagine she would not take kindly to being told that her outfit is in appropriate and even with a dress code would consider any such suggestion to be sexist and discriminatory, and by the way why was anyone even looking at her crotch/boobs/whatever – that’s harassment!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They need to have a dress code if they want to enforce anything or not start dipping their toes into “Why are you singling me out? This feels like discrimination.” territory. It’s absurd not to have SOMETHING written up.

      It can be really easy going like “Form fitting, revealing or noticeably decaying clothes are not appropriate attire.”

      This will kept them in the clear for jerks who walk in with their dongs hanging out like the sweatpants guy or anyone waltzing in wearing their scuba gear because they’re going for a dive after work. Because those aren’t acceptable either but try to get that to hold up in a termination case when you have no written policy or expectations.

      Without it written and enforced, it’s worthless and leaves their tooshies hanging out waiting for a lawyer to eat on it when the time comes that someone wants to make a stink about being discriminated against.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        I’m trying to imagine going through a day at work in a wet or dry suit. Nope; I’d pass out from dehydration.

    6. IrisEyes*

      With no power I don’t think you can do anything to address the issue directly especially if they aren’t willing to listen to constructive criticism.

      However, you could try positive compliments when she is wearing an outfit that is less obscene. If you have any social power there or any “cool” factor this can work. Women as a whole are generally pretty sensitive to the approval of external appearance from other women.

      On the other hand it doens’t sound like things could get a whole lot worse so addressing it and maybe if you can think of legitimate ways that dressing more professionally might benefit her specifically in your environment and spell out what that would look like. If you can point to a woman with a higher position that she might aspire to that would be a good idea, even better if there are several with different styles.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea they have no power to address it? OP says they’re partner is an executive at the firm, so they would seem to have plenty of standing.

    7. CatCat*

      It sounds like there is a dress code. Like, you don’t want worn out clothes full of holes or form-fitting attire. So just say that. Write it down and distribute it. Doesn’t have to be overly complicated.

      1. ell emm ess*

        I think what’s tough is trying to come up with any sort of policy that gets at appropriateness and what actually crosses a line (and doesn’t overly police women’s bodies). Like, “form-fitting” can mean a lot of things – it can mean a pencil skirt from J. Crew, it can mean skinny jeans, it can mean leggings, or it can mean the labia pants. And the same with “no holes” – what about fashionably distressed jeans?

        The subjectivity of it is where the difficulty lies, and that’s especially true with a person who would likely not react well anyway.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          So you’re okay with “holes” in jeans but not in tops…that’s kind of absurd and getting way too deep into this. Oh no, you rule out distressed jeans along with yoga pants, you cannot pick and choose like that because without some guidelines you’re asking for trouble.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Most companies, even casual hoodie-wearing ones, do have a basic dress code of “business casual” which mainly means:

      >Employees should present to work clean and well-groomed, following basic levels of personal hygiene.
      >Clothing should be clean and neat, without rips, holes or tears.
      >Clothing should be appropriate for an office environment and cover the body appropriately without revealing excessive skin, body parts or undergarments: Examples of inappropriate clothing include: items being too short, tight, see-through, shiny or expressly revealing.
      >Shoes should be well constructed to protect the feet, be of leather or canvas material, and should not impede normal walking or working activities.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Other useful phrases ive seen… Undergarments worn and not visible past clothing. Any body parts normally covered by a swimsuit are covered by clothing. Skirts must be longer than your pinkies when your arms are held down at your side. (This from someone old enough to say that was the ‘cool’ length for microminis when she was in school and it was unarguably food short for office.) Manufacturing floor staff must wear additional safety gear as per their assigned tasks.
        I’ll have to go look and see how they updated for stretch pants–I’m not a fan of them so I didn’t pay attention to that detail.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Further complicated by Betabrand and their “work yoga pants” that look like work slacks, barely, but fit like yoga pants.

          Fine with a tunic top, less so with a short blazer or hip length cardigan.

    10. Free Meerkats*

      Have the guy who’s working out his notice period walk by her and say, “Nice labia!” By the time the investigation is finished, he’ll be down the road.

      I kid (mostly.)

      2. Jemima Bond*

        Reminds me of a job where our dress code was accepted as being v casual owing to nature of work. A female colleague (I am also female which is probably relevant) often had “whale tail” – that thing where your g-string underwear sticks up over the back waistband of your jeans – and then it started to show at the front too. I lost patience and said, “oh ffs Tangerina, get a belt, we don’t all need to see next week’s laundry”. This job had very relaxed attitudes re language and…attitude. So I could see myself saying to your colleague in private, “seriously Jane you have a hell of a case of cameltoe there, you might want to sort that out”.
        Also reminded of a phrase I read in a novel, a character described someone as having “jeans so tight you could tell if he was Jewish”…

    11. MaureenC*

      It sounds like they need an explicit one-sentence dress code: “Employees will cover their genitals in compliance with local business custom.”

      The rest, if the tech bros aren’t going to have a dress code because that’s so old (and because they like looking at Ms. Function), will just have to be lived with unless HR can come up with something.

      1. Ewesername*

        Our guidelines state:
        Due to nature of our business, tops must have sleeves. Bottoms must be loose enough to disguise the nature of your genitalia. No superfluous openings on either.

        In other words – no tanks, no tight pants, no holes. Goes for all genders, regardless of department – factory, warehouse, garage, office.

        Do people grumble? Yep. Does HR whip out the old code from 1980 with the “ladies are to wear knee length skirts/heels, gentlemen shirts and ties?” Once in awhile. Shuts the grumbling down every time.

    12. CM*

      Let’s say there’s no dress code, there’s not going to be, and the OP’s partner doesn’t have the authority to tell people how to dress. My approach would be this: ask yourself why this bothers you and, if you’re able to come up with a real reason that isn’t just “I think you look unattractive” or “I think you look ghetto” or “It bugs me that you’re not following what I think are the implicit rules of how people need to dress in an office” then share that reason with the person.

      So, if I guy I worked with wore loose shorts and I could literally see his balls, I would say, “I feel really uncomfortable right now because I can see your balls.”

      Or, if we went to a client meeting and he was dressed in a way that felt off-brand, I might say, “I don’t think what you’re wearing right now conveys [whatever it is we’re trying to convey]” Like, “I don’t think what you’re wearing right now reads as fun and casual” or “I don’t think what you’re wearing right now reads as stable and reassuring.”

      Or, if I had heard other people making fun of the way that person dressed, and I felt like it was holding them back from professional opportunities, I might say, “People around here try to dress more like Big Bird most days. It doesn’t always make sense, but sometimes wearing lots of yellow feathers makes them more favorably disposed toward whatever you’re trying to tell them.”

      But, if I didn’t have a reason besides “I think your body looks ugly this way” or “I don’t think you know how to buy clothes that fit properly” I probably would just not enjoy what that person was wearing and keep it to myself. Or maybe give them compliments on the days they wore something I did like, or that I thought fit them better.

    13. ..Kat..*

      Is there something that she wants (such as more respect?) that you can use to suggest clothing changes?
      Example:
      Ms No-bra-tight-short-clothing: Joe never asks my opinion. Jim disregards anything that I say. No one respects my professional competence.
      You: Yes, I’ve noticed that. I wonder if you wore a bra and looser, longer skirts if that would make a difference.
      Ms No-bra-tight-short-clothing: I can wear what I want. I am just expressing myself. You are jealous of my breasts natural perkiness.
      You: Yes, you can wear what you want. It just saddens me that no one notices how smart you are. I wonder if it is related to your clothing. I notice that Jill gets a lot of respect. She’s smart and I think her clothing choices help her get the respect she deserves.

  32. confidante's inferno*

    This is timely! I have a quandary that’s stressing me out (i.e. I’m overthinking as always). Will try to keep it short but any opinions hugely appreciated.

    I’m in my first professional role post-university doing project mgmt. I kind of fell into it and took it because it was a good opportunity; I’ve been doing it for 18 months. The work itself is stressful and not what I want to do long term, but the team and its culture is amazing; close-knit, supportive, great work/life balance, good workload management from leaders, etc., and the nature of the role means I collaborate with tons of different departments, which is great for building up a network.

    I saw an internal vacancy for a role that would be more suited to my interests (numbers-focused, yay!) which is a grade above my current role. Somehow I managed to get an interview for it(!) because they said they’re looking for skills and enthusiasm rather than experience. Fantastic opportunity. However, it’s a newly created, smaller team, and the others in the team are in different offices across the country (same for my current team, but we have lots of video calls and a few of my team are in my office with me). So my worries are: 1) will the culture be as positive and supportive? 2) will I feel isolated, because my team won’t be physically around me and the nature of the role is much less collaborative? and 3) to a smaller extent, will I be able to cope with helping a new department to grow with new ideas etc? (I’m a small-picture, detail kinda person – not an ideas gal).

    I would really, really miss my current team – each and every one of them have been so willing to mentor and teach and give me guidance and encouragement, and there’s no guarantee of a similar environment in the other role. BUT I don’t want to be doing this job forever. The other option would be to stick where I am for a while, and wait for something to come up within a bigger/more established/more local team, which may be a bit of a pipe dream… I suppose what it comes down to is, what’s more important – the people you work with or the work itself?

    (Also, I have anxiety and am terrified of change generally, which may be clouding my thoughts. I’m interested to know whether a “normal” person would have as much hesitation as I do, or if it’s just because I’m catastrophising!)

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Changing jobs is always a risk, so you need to decide if you are in a mental place where the possible benefits outweigh the risks. Generally speaking, there will be some bits that are better than your current role, and there will likely be something that you don’t care for, like a repetitive task that you have to work of for 3 hours each week.
      This isn’t very helpful, I know. But you can have something that looks like a perfect magical job and it turns out to be terrible. And then you can have a “I just need to do this nasty job for a paycheck” and it turns out to be great. But it is absolutely acceptable to say that you don’t want to take the risk now and stay where you are. Something else will come up later and you may feel better about that role.

    2. periwinkle*

      After a reorganization last year, I ended up on a small, brand-new team with my boss far away, a couple others in the campus but different buildings, and the rest scattered around a large metropolitan area (4 different buildings). We added another team member so now we have the complete set of continental U.S. time zones. I knew two of my new teammate slightly, the rest not at all.

      We forged into an awesome team. It can be done! You need a super supportive manager plus team members who have a common vision even if our skill sets are all over the place. Webcams are very useful – it’s easier to bond when we can see each other. We meet very regularly, with team stand-ups twice a week plus longer meetings on a regular schedule (we work Agile, so we meet for sprint planning, sprint de-briefing, and a showcase of what we’ve worked on). We work on different projects, sometimes on our own and other times in collaboration with one or two others on the team. The team and sprint meetings are our chance to talk together, bounce ideas around, and socialize. We also use a collaborative messaging system similar to Slack; the team channel swings wildly around from work talk to general questions to silly memes. The more ways you can connect as a team, the more that physical distance fades away.

      As for not being an ideas person, that’s great! Companies are full of idea people. My company is terrific at creating strategy after strategy. The real value is in executing the strategy. That sounds like your strength. Details are important. A good manager puts a lot of value on someone who can execute those grand ideas and handle the practical details of launching and sustaining them.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yes…if a group doesn’t have a details person, it will flop.
        I’ll point out that because this is an internal transfer, you’ll still have your close co-workers at your location for lunch breaks & etc.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I think you should take the job if it’s offered to you. First, you said the job you’re in now isn’t the one you wanted to be in in the first place, so you were obviously looking for a new challenge – this would be it. Second, you’re a numbers person and this is a job that plays to that strength – should you want to continue down that path, having this position on your resume can only help you going forward in your next job search. And yes, you may end up in an environment that’s not as ideal as the one you’re leaving – but you may end up someplace better. You never know, so you should keep your options open.

      I say this as someone who just left a job that had a perfectly lovely group of coworkers who were all willing to jump in and assist each other on any project as needed, but I couldn’t stay in a job I was bored to tears in and wasn’t challenged by just because I liked the people. That would just ensure my skills would atrophy, and I wouldn’t have any significant or impressive accomplishments to put on my resume for my next job search. I, too, am worried about my new role because it’s brand new to the department and my entire team is remote – but I really believe that what I’ll be doing (helping to create boilerplate language and implementing a new and better document management center) will be amazing for my growth as a writer and proposal manager, and the results will look fantastic on my resume. Since the potential rewards outweighed the risk, I took the leap – I think you should too if you get the chance. Good luck!

  33. Foreign Octopus*

    I’ve just started a new course in proofreading in the hope that a) it improves my English teaching for my students, particularly with regards to grammar and punctuation, and b) it’s another avenue for me to explore as I’ve been having financial problems just relying on English teaching.

    Any proofreaders out there? What do you enjoy about your work?

    1. irene adler*

      I know I’m not who you wanted to respond.
      I am interested in proofreading as a p/t job. But not sure how to start. Your post, and the reference to coursework in proofreading, has given me an idea of where to start.
      I’m writing today in the hopes you’ll post about your experiences in a future Friday open thread (If that’s not asking too much of your time. Hate to have this take up too much of your time)
      Thank you.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Hi Irene, I’d be happy to post my experiences!

        I’ve just started today but I can definitely update once a week for you to let you know how it’s going. I recommend Googling Caitlin Pyle (that should take you to Proofread Anywhere) and Virginia Nakitari, who runs an excellent blog about earning smart money online and not falling victim to scams. There’s a wonderful post about 31 proofreading jobs for beginners and resources.

        Hope this helps :)

        1. I See Real People*

          I would like to follow your experience as well. I’ve always been interested in proofreading as a side gig to being an executive assistant, where I catch all kinds of errors in documents all day long! Lol. I’ve recently searched a job search engine with “proofreading”, which leads to some jobs, though oddly enough most of those are on-site.
          Thank you for the googling information. I’ll check it out!

        2. irene adler*

          Yes!! Resoundingly yes!
          I found UPworks where they have proofreader jobs (amongst a host of other types of jobs). Got me thinking. Then came your post here. Karma?

          Found Proofread Anywhere. Am exploring it now.

          And thank you! Look forward to reading your experiences(good and bad).

    2. Mephyle*

      You know those annoying people who will correct other people’s grammar? No one likes those, right? I would be in danger of being one of them. But I get to channel my obsession with correct grammar, spelling, format and punctuation by exercising it only when I’m getting paid to do so.

    3. Melon Soda*

      I proofread as a freelance/side gig thing, and I work directly with two companies on a project-by-project basis. I never had any formal training in it, just learned on the job and by having the reference materials (CMS, MW, house guide, series guide, etc) surrounding me at all times. I work in publishing already as my full-time gig, so I connected with these companies by hearing through professional connections that they were looking for more freelancers to add to their pool. Anyway, I enjoy it! The thing I enjoy the most though is that I work with material that I already enjoy reading, so it’s nice to know that I’m helping to make a nice final end product for the eventual buyer. It’s also something I can do remotely and around my other work, which is convenient.

  34. Anon for Layoffs*

    I posted a couple weeks ago about impending layoffs. Well, Monday is the day. It’s going to be a rough weekend. I think I am at the acceptance part of this process, but it won’t make Monday any easier. I have to get on my weekly call with one of direct reports in 15 minutes. It’s going to be tough because she doesn’t know she is losing someone on her team. I wish I could just cancel, but there is stuff we need to discuss.
    UGH.
    Anyway, just a vent because I obviously can’t talk about it.

  35. EmS*

    Omg I need to tell people about what happen to me with my boss. I am still mortified about it.

    Me and my boss both live in the small town and work 30 min away from it. So sometimes my boss is offering me a ride home. It is very generous of her and I appreciate it greatly.

    Earlier this week, I had a bad migraine and it often make me sick from it. After work that day, my boss offered me a ride home which I accepted. I was feeling really nauseous because of the migraine that day and during the ride it became worse. About 500m from my place, I started going from very nauseous to omg I will threw up now. I ask my boss to pull over and then I barely had time to open the passenger door before throwing up on the ground outside. At least I thought it was on ground, because as I rise back up, I see puke everywhere on the window and passenger door and the dashboard!

    My boss was super nice about it and tried to make me feel better as she gets motion sick herself a lot, but I wanted to crawl into a hole and die! I am still so mortified a few days later! I did clean up most of it and offered to pay if she wanted more thorough cleaning.

    1. KR*

      Oh my God! I would also be so embarrassed. I was visiting with an office that I don’t normally work in and I had to ask the manager there to let me sit in front as I was getting really car sick. She actually pulled over and asked me to drive instead if it would make me feel better (which it did) and I was so embarrassed but she was really understanding. I’m sure your manager wants you to feel better and is more concerned about you than her car. And you offered to pay for cleaning so you have covered all of your bases of being a good person here.

    2. ThatGirl*

      She knows you didn’t do it on purpose. You did the right thing, you thanked her, you’re human – you weren’t drunk or something, you were sick. It’s OK. Try not to feel too bad about it.

      My husband’s boss once drove him home because he was throwing up from a migraine. He didn’t barf in her car, but he came close.

      1. JaneB*

        I’m sure she was sincere – try and let it just become one of those things!

        That said, as someone who also gets throwing-up migraines, I’ve taken to always carrying a couple of plastic bathroom waste bin liners in my bag – they take up almost no room but are great emergency barf bags… they’ve saved my own car a couple of times when I didn’t manage to leave the office soon enough to get hone before the actual throwing up started…

        Much sympathy!

    3. Wishing You Well*

      I am sorry you were so sick.
      Would it help to remember that bosses have probably barfed in the past too?
      Your boss sounds like a kind person. I think this incident will fade with time.
      I hope your migraines fade away, too.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s big to you and that makes sense. But it’s not big to most people. You were sick, stuff happens.

      Something I don’t see mentioned here much but as a supervisor I have had to deal with many odd situations including people getting sick or needing an ambulance. To me, this is what happens when a person takes on a leadership role, they agree to take on additional responsibility and sometimes what those responsibilities are can be things we don’t ordinarily think of.

      You handled this perfectly, you helped clean up and offer to pay for cleaning. There is nothing more a boss can ask for here because this is the best.

      I do know that headaches used to take away some of my coping tools. My suggestion is to decide to forget about this for a moment, get some extra rest and once you feel more rested then think about and try to reframe. It happened, you took responsibility and now it is over. I can assure you that she has at least 100 other things she is thinking about and she is not thinking about that incident at all.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Here’s one to maybe help you feel better… my husband’s friend once had to drive his drunk boss home from the restaurant. His boss tried to throw a lit cigarette out the CLOSED car window. Friend put on the brakes but it was too late…it went into the backseat snd birned a hole. The guy was SO drunk he hit his head on the dashboard in the process. Came in the next day not knowing why he had a huge bruise…and wouldn’t pay the repair bill.
      Migraine? Totally not your fault AND you offered to pay the cleaning bill.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oof – not to one up, but my own mom did this.

        I smoke in my car. It’s a nice car, I keep it clean, I smoke in it. Carefully.

        Cue me telling Mom, “Yes, you can smoke in my car, but I have the windows rolled down, and when you’re done, do NOT throw the butt out the window, I’ve got a capped bottle with water in it that I use as an ashtray because throwing butts out the window is a dick move.”

        I thought the usual idea of “be careful with the cherry” was a given.

        So Mom is smoking, fiddling around, leans forward to do something, butts her cigarette out accidentally on the glovebox, and the cherry hits the floor. She then GRINDS IT OUT with her foot, burning a hole in my custom floor mats. I express dismay, and she snaps back, “Oh my god, it’s just a floor mat, get over it.”

        She didn’t smoke in my car for the rest of her visit here.

  36. ghostwriter*

    I started a new job as 100% teleworker a few months ago, The home office is having an employee appreciation luncheon and I’d love to go since I’ve been feeling a little lonely and wanting to get to know the in-house employees a bit more. But I feel nervous RSVPing… I kind of worry that no one remembers me or would think it’s weird I’m coming in. Am I crazy? Any tips for how to catch up without being awkward?

    1. RandomU...*

      Go! My default for nervous is humor and owning my awkward.

      When you get there, wander around and ‘introduce’ yourself to your coworkers. “Hey Fergus, it’s me ghostwriter, hah… I’m probably going to be known as the free lunch guy for only coming in when food is offered”

      “Lucinda, It’s good to see you. It’s Ghost, thought I’d introduce myself since I don’t look so much like my mugshot picture that someone picked for skype”

      “Wakeen, Don’t worry, I’m not a printer salesman. It’s ghost. Say did that email I sent about the llama migration help last week”

      In other words, no, not weird that you are coming in. And it’s a great time interact with your coworkers.

      2. Auntie Social*

        Head it off at the pass by reminding your boss “remember when X went wrong and some people/Mr. Howell thought it was Joe’s fault? What do we do if that happens again? I know YOU give us the benefit of the doubt, but will you remind Mr. Howell and the skipper that it could just as easily be a system bug??” I think you should work with Joe–you two working together have more credibility than just Joe alone. And afterwards you can praise Joe’s qualities of X and Y to anyone who will listen. And be funny—” you’ll see me from time to time when I run out of paperclips!”

        1. Auntie Social*

          Oh, pooh. Delete everything but the last sentence. I’m all run together.

    2. Emmie*

      Go! – From a fellow remote employee. If you need travel permission and reimbursements, ask for it ahead of time.

      Many people won’t know you. That’s okay. You’ve only been in the position for a few months. You are not weird for going. IME, people will love to see you in person. Introduce yourself to everyone. Ask what they do. You are at a perfect time to do this visit. No one expects you to remember their names!

    3. straws*

      I vote going! I’m not a remote employee, but we have a couple of remote workers and it’s exciting for us when they come in.

  37. Downloading my thoughts*

    HR have emailed, inviting me to download their colleague mobile app, and register with such-and-such code and department, etc. Great, except I don’t start working there for 6 weeks, and I haven’t met anyone but the hiring manager yet. Too soon? First impressions count. Should I do introductions by work-based social media 6 weeks early?

    1. Great Comebacks*

      It might be too soon to post, but lurking is a solid option. It could help you get a feel for culture or certain co-workers.

  38. Great Comebacks*

    We’ve all worked with jerks. Most of us would love to tell the jerk off without any repercussions, but those chances almost never happen. Usually we have to bite our tongue to avoid being fired or black listed or whatever. Anyone have any great “comeuppance” stories? When they do happen, they are beautiful to behold!

    I’ll start off. I was mid-level staff working on a high profile project. My job included interpreting complex contractual details. In a meeting of about 15 people with 4 or 5 VP’s, I answered a question about a specific process. VP Jerk goes off on a tirade screaming about how wrong and stupid I am. A few other people in the room speak up in support because regulations require it, but that just makes VP Jerk double down and start screaming at them. Finally he says “That can’t possibly be correct and I won’t believe it until a Certified Teapot Examiner tells me so.” I very calmly looked at him and said “Well, VP Jerk, I am a Certified Teapot Examiner and I’m telling you.” It was glorious – it completely shut him up as he had no idea how to respond. No repercussion for me as I was just stating a fact (not my fault VP jerk didn’t think it possible I had that credential!). VP Jerk was so universally hated that I had visitors all afternoon, including other VP’s, giving me high fives for putting him in his place.

    I know this was my once in a lifetime chance. I’ll never get another one that good. So now I need your stories to sustain me on a rainy day…off you go.

    1. irene adler*

      Can’t think of any right now…
      but your story sure is good! Thank you for posting it.

      1. irene adler*

        I remembered this:

        I work in a heavily regulated industry.
        One of my tasks is to be the ‘checker’ when a mfg. tech is performing certain manufacturing processes. Each step of these processes is documented by the tech and witnessed by me. It is a required procedure that we “sign as we go” for each step. No signing before the fact or well after the fact.

        I’m called to mfg. to do my ‘checker’ task. The tech has everything set up. But she’s already signed off the entire document! I then pointed to her signatures and said, “looks like you already finished the job. No need for me. How is it the checker didn’t sign off each step as you did?”

        Tech laughed. “I’m just trying to get ahead on the paperwork. So, I signed it all the way through.”

        I explained that this isn’t the proper procedure. She says that she’s too busy to follow that.

        I go to her boss (Mfg manager). He’s pretty much a shoot-the-messenger type. I explained about the sign-ahead on the document.
        “So?”, he says, glaring.
        “not proper procedure,” I explained.
        “So?”, he retorts.
        Clearly not going to get anywhere.

        I report this to my boss, who, explains that, once the document is complete, there’s no way to tell if we signed off each step one-at-a-time or all at once. Just sign everything and don’t worry about it.

        Except that we are not following the required procedure. He doesn’t see the bigger picture here.

        Weeks pass. This ‘sign ahead’ activity is repeated. I report this to my grand boss. “I see,” he says.
        Nothing changes.

        One day, while the mfg. manager is off on vacation, the state regulators shows up for an inspection of our facility.

        They find techs on the mfg. floor signing ahead on their documents. We are cited. Upper management agrees to take steps to correct this issue.

        Later, grand boss says to me, “I guess you were trying to tell us there was a problem“.

        Gee.

        1. Great Comebacks*

          Yeah, compliance can be a thankless task. Bet you had to hold in the “I told you so!”

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I have a similar story. Group telecon meeting, loud guy shares yet another opinion stated as fact (“I don’t believe X is true, X is just like Y, so X can’t be true.”). I don’t agree but usually find it’s a waste of time or too minor to disagree publicly with him, or I would be doing it alllll the time. But the third time he brings this specific thing up, I just started talking. I described in detail my experience with X, as the widely acknowledged expert, and broke down exactly how X and Y are fundamentally different, and X is absolutely true. Mic drop, total silence for a full 10 seconds. Loud guy changed the subject and we all moved on.

      1. Great Comebacks*

        Good one! Did you have video or voice only? I bet the face was as good as the silence if you could see it.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          It was only voice for me, but he was in a room with some other people (one of whom just left the team because of him) so I enjoyed that mental picture!

    3. Llellayena*

      Darn, I have a great non-work one. Well, it’s a work story for the cop involved, so maybe? Alison, remove if this is too far off.
      I’m merging onto a highway, guy comes from behind me where he has a yield sign (merge on the on ramp, then merge on the the highway) blazes past me, pushing me into the shoulder. Yes, I hit the horn. Fortunately, the car behind him was a cop car. Cop passes me, lights on, guy pulls over onto the shoulder. Cop just keeps going. Basically, he pushed the guy onto the shoulder just like the guy pushed me. :)

      1. Great Comebacks*

        Good one. I saw a commuter (in a gold Mercedes) fly by morning commute stopped traffic on the right shoulder. Minutes later a cop followed on the shoulder with lights flashing and Mercedes guy pulled over getting a ticket a few hundred feet later. So satisfying! (and morning commute is my dubious work tie-in).

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Hahahah, this never happens when someone does something stupid on the road around me, but I often wish it would.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A few years ago my daughter’s bus stop was at an intersection too many people use to avoid highway traffic. We regularly had drivers honking for the kindergarteners to hurry.
        One day an impatient driver sped AROUND the school bus whose lights were still flashing. The parents & driver yelled…and a state trooper pulled out behind him and put on his flashers.
        The trooper lives four houses away and was glad for a chance to ticket one of the area’s speeders! The parents & driver were delighted.

        2. JobHunter*

          I witnessed a similar event. JerkJeep was aggressively passing other cars on the bypass. He passed me just after I had turned off the bypass (I don’t think my turn signal had even clicked off yet!) and onto a heavily-traveled street that began in an industrial section and ended in a residential district. JerkJeep decided to pass a slowing semi and trailer. I was far enough back to see the stopped school bus ahead of the semi. Semi Driver jerked the wheel and nearly pushed JerkJeep off the road! JerkJeep obediently pulled in behind the semi. I may have expressed some disapproval in some fashion, I don’t recall at this time…

    4. Art3mis*

      I used to work for an insurance carrier setting up short term disability claims. I didn’t adjudicate them, I just set them up or added documents to existing claims that came in. I had a claim form come in from a doctor’s office. No claim in the system, but also no employer listed. We didn’t always have employee information on file, in fact we usually didn’t, so I couldn’t look up who this person’s employer was to determine what policy the claim should be set up for. So I call the doctor’s office to see if they know. Sometimes they’d talk to us, sometimes they wouldn’t, sometimes they didn’t have the information. But this place would talk to me and she tells me that according to their file employee works for Large Company That I Know Is A Client. OK great. Set the claim up, send it off to the folks that work the claims.
      Following week we get more claim docs for this claim, this time from the employee and their employer, whomever got those docs attached them to the existing claim and went about their day, like they should. Then the team group email inbox gets an email from the specialist working the claim. It angrily tells us that the employer is wrong and that CLEARLY the employer should be Other Company and not Large Company as stated on the Employer and Employee claim forms. Group inbox sends it to me, because if I did it wrong, it counts against my quality score. I look it up and confirm the information, reply back to the specialist and tell her that we have to go on the information we receive, we can’t just pend documents, and if we can get the information by other means, we have a duty by law to start the claim in good faith and that CLEARLY the two forms detailing the other employer came in a WEEK after the initial form. I even included screen shots with red arrows showing the different dates. The person who operated the inbox came over and told me good job, apparently this specialist was known to be a bully and complain about everything, and she was glad that someone had finally stood up to her.

      1. Great Comebacks*

        Yeah for standing up to bullies and getting kudos for it rather than crap!

    5. Auntie Social*

      We had a group of civil practice attorneys in our office (we do family law). I told my senior partner that our pretrial motions for another case were ready, within earshot of their youngest looking associate. She jumped on me like she owned me, saying my docs were late, they were worthless, etc. It was really startling. I explained civil court and family court in our county had different cutoff dates and local rules altogether, and in fact my pleadings were a day early. Plus, my boss was on the committee that helped draft the LRs, so I really did know them. Her boss came down on her like a ton of bricks—“You assumed again and shot your mouth off, this proves you haven’t read the local rules from front to back, and you made us ALL look bad!” I said “Not all of you!” and gave him a smile. I heard she was gone soon afterwards.

      1. Great Comebacks*

        Know-it-all’s getting hoist on their own petard is an especially satisfying comeuppance!

    6. Uncanny Valley*

      Here’s a cyber high five to you! A “TAKE THAT!” like the one you described is worth its weight in gold plated platinum encrusted with diamonds!

      1. Great Comebacks*

        It really is. This actually happened about 15 years ago and still keeps on giving. I was at a retirement party last week and it came up as a legendary story that had to be passed down to anyone that missed it the first time around. Our enjoyment of it years later is what gave me the idea to share it with AAM!

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      I just had one last week. I was on a call with a bajillion people, working with a vendor who we need to have perform X because it is a regulatory requirement. The vendor keeps refusing, despite the clear requirement, and on this call was making the claim that Named Big Bank doesn’t do X, no one does X, and we don’t have to do X. What they don’t know is that I used to be the general counsel for the division of Named Big Bank that does X. So while I was on the call, I reached out to my former colleagues to ask if something had changed, and I was assured by them that nothing had changed. So I got back on the call and said “I just checked with the law department of Named Big Bank and they assure me that they still do X. They would like to know who is going around saying that they don’t.” Pin drop.

      1. Great Comebacks*

        Oh, I love this. It was genius to make the comment about Big Bank wants to know who is saying it!

    8. Interplanet Janet*

      OK, so this isn’t actually work, but …

      I went back to school when I was 30 for a second degree. Yeah, I was that conscientious “grownup” in the classes; I wasn’t distracted by all the things I had been at 18, and I was well known in the department for being trustworthy and reliable and hardworking and smart.

      There was a professor teaching an upper level class that was very much a “kids these days have no work ethic” kind of grouchy guy who set out to self-fulfill that prophecy by making the class impossible to do well in. He set assignments that were ridiculously hard and then did that thing where he implied that if we couldn’t do it we were never going to make it as software engineers.

      I was not having it. After about 6 weeks, I went to my advisor and said I was spending upwards of 20 hours a week on that class alone including going to office hours regularly and barely pulling a C and that my classmates were having similar problems. They PULLED the professor from the class, gave us all a pass/fail option and he never taught it again. HA.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Similar to IJ, here this one is not my work, it’s other people’s work.

        When my husband passed he had a couple small bank accounts. In NY small bank accounts roll to the surviving spouse because probate courts are clogged up enough.

        I brought the death certificate to the bank and asked them what needed to be done to roll the accounts. They said they could not do it. I went to another branch. They could not do it either. They too wanted me to go through probate. (Probating would have cost more than what was in the accounts.)

        That was enough for one day, I went home and regrouped. I contacted the lawyer. He shook his head in disbelief at such a mistake. When I stopped at his office he gave me a copy of the law. I went to the bank branch nearest his office. I showed them the law and they still would not roll the funds.

        We anticipated this and the lawyer said to have them call him.
        When they called for whatever reason the line was busy and the call did not go through. The employee gave up.
        I said, “Here let me try with my cell.” The call went right through.
        The employee told the lawyer they would not roll the accounts.
        He asked for the number for their legal department.
        When he called legal, the person in the legal department was incredulous that this was even going on.
        Legal said they would call the particular employee involved in my problem here.

        I went back to the lawyer’s while I waited. I started talking about his bill for all this and estimated $300.
        He said no and that 250 would cover it.
        I said to put that in writing.
        The lawyer said they will NEVER pay it.

        I went back to the bank. They rolled the money over to my account.
        Then I handed them the legal bill.
        THEY PAID.

        This was a nationwide company that was well known for not paying in situations like this.
        I went back to the lawyer and paid his bill. He said, they NEVER pay the bill!
        He was still laughing when I left the building.

        1. Great Comebacks*

          Oh they deserved to have to pay the legal bill in that situation. Good for you for giving them the bill in person. I bet your lawyer still tells that story!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I said, “You have your story for the week.”
            He said, “NO. I have my story for the YEAR.”

            No doubt in my mind.

      2. Great Comebacks*

        You definitely had built up some serious capital to get that result. Go forth and use your power wisely ;)

    9. RobotWithHumanHair*

      This was back when I was running a university audio-visual department and was pretty much the sole employee, so I was also doing the day-to-day work getting faculty set up with projectors and whatnot. At the time, I was also rather young for a department head, perhaps 21 or 22 at that point, so I was often mistaken for a student.

      One particular day, I had to deal with a particularly surly newer faculty member who wasn’t at all pleased with department policies and such (need at least 24 hours notice to request equipment, etc.). As I tried to explain things to this faculty member as calmly as possibly, they rudely interjected with “Who’s the head of your department? I want to speak with THEM – NOW!”

      My response, very calmly: “I’m actually the head of the department.”

      What followed was the most glorious “Oooooooooooooooh!” in unison from all the students in the classroom.

      1. Great Comebacks*

        OMG, I have full audio and visual playing in my head of that Ooooooooh complete with students leaning back and holding up their hands like they just witnessed a smack down!

    10. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      I’m a reporter who sometimes covers shady/predatory landlord shenanigans in a city with high housing costs and rent control. (Landlords here—not all landlords, mind you, just the ones who decide to break the law—use numerous, often very creative legal pretexts to intimidate renters into vacating properties, which are then sold or rerented for $$$$$.) A tenant attorney told me about a case that sounded bad, but I wasn’t sure how bad it was, and how newsworthy it would be. But someone was about to lose their apartment (without the usual accommodations the law requires). So I decided to do some probing with the landlord attorney. I left a voicemail and sent an email and moved on, figuring it might be hard to get the details I wanted and turn it into a story.

      I never heard back from the landlord attorney. I followed up with the tenant attorney a few weeks later, saying I didn’t think I could do the story without info from the other side. The attorney wrote back was like, “Oh, we settled that! As soon as they got your call they decided to settle.”

      As a way-underpaid journalist, I never feel that kind of power. It was glorious. Just two
      minutes of my time on a random Tuesday turned into a fair outcome for someone in a powerless position. Best feeling ever.

  39. aryalistening*

    Well, I was just (about 20 minutes ago) on the receiving end of some hurt feelings over a department baby shower potluck next week… I asked to move the day to one that would be better for the team I supervise, and the person who said yes (who is technically at a lower level than me, but whom I don’t supervise), said yes without telling me it wouldn’t work for her team (including one person who is especially close to the baby shower honoree). Not sure if she felt I was directing her, rather than asking (I think my email was pretty clearly a request, but hey, I could be wrong). So, there are now upset feelings about this event that I and my team don’t actually care that much about. This is a team that tends to hold on to things like this, and ugh, I’m very over it. My response was to tell her I’d try to get it moved back, and going forward, I won’t request reschedules. I also plan to be just as warm and professional with her as I always am…any other suggestions? :)

    1. Expand All Threaded Comments*

      I would be warm and professional in my response to her, and gently remind her that if she needs to advocate for her teams calendar, she shouldn’t be so reluctant or shy to do so in the future. That your request was meant to be part of the discussion regarding dates, and that she should please feel enabled to contribute to that discussion as you certainly didn’t mean to make your preferences the default for all.

      1. Expand All Threaded Comments*

        Be gentle when you make these comments – it’s not an argument. It’s a cajoling to get a timid coworker to feel empowered!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you’re doing everything correctly and it’s good that you noted that this person cannot seem to take requests as they’re intended. So it’s super important to just change your own MO moving forward. You cannot do anything now that the feelings are damaged, except continue to be warm and kind as usual.

      I’ve dealt with these delicate souls plenty before, it’s a “lesson learned” moment.

      This is why we ask all the department heads before scheduling things because we think of each other instead of operating as Us Vs Them nonsense.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This right here is why some people get avoided and then later wonder why everyone avoids asking them anything of any importance.

      I would definitely make it a point going forward to ask just about anyone else, not her. This is a bit much because she said yes and meant no. My work day is long enough without people like this.

      If I got a lot of attitude about it, I might say, “If you mean NO, then you should not say YES. This whole problem was avoidable. When I ask a question I expect an honest answer.” But I would only go with this level of response if the incident dragged on and on.

  40. Jenn*

    I accepted a job in Chicago! I will be moving about 8 hours away. I know I will have to complete a background check before officially receiving the offer, so I’m waiting to hear next steps on that. I’m SO excited!!

    3. Sunny*

      That’s awesome! Chi-Town born and raised here ;)

      Any idea what neighborhood you’ll be living in?

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you move to the city proper think really hard about whether you want to keep your car. The public transit up here is AWESOME. And it’s so great to not pay a car payment, insurance, parking, maintenance, whatevs. I haven’t owned a car in 5+ years, and I LOVE IT. You can chuck the saved money in a special savings account for a rainy day, or to save up to buy a car outright in a few years if you think you need one again, or you move somewhere you’d need one.

      1. Need a better name, CPA*

        Another Chicagoan here. The transit system is very uneven, depending on neighborhood. Check before signing a lease. Bus lines move but rail tracks stay put. Neither one necessarily runs on the stated schedule, but they do run through winter weather pretty well. Best service is to and from downtown; service between suburbs is very limited.

        That said, if you are in walking distance of an El stop (the El isn’t necessarily elevated; parts are underground, and parts run down the median of the expressways), you really only need a car for vacations or if you want to go out to the suburbs. You can even take the El from downtown to the airport. Lots of people just rent a car when they need one.

        If you’re considering living in the suburbs while working downtown, don’t even think of driving to work. Downtown parking costs more for a week than a monthly train ticket.

    6. pattm*

      Welcome!! Enjoy our spring and summer before hibernation season! Congrats on the new job!

  41. wafflesfriendswork*

    I have an interview today!! I’m feeling pretty good about my prep, as I already prepped some answers for the phone interview that they didn’t ask but I feel like they still will, but I’m *always* worried about the “tell me about a time when” questions–I can never think of anything in the moment or while prepping, and usually what I come up with feels way out of left field (but is maybe ok?).

    Hopefully at least it won’t be like years ago when I interviewed at a library and when I was asked about the last book I read my mind went completely blank. Eep!

      1. wafflesfriendswork*

        Well they had to reschedule me for Monday, bleh. Hopefully I’ll have something better to report next open thread!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          So what WAS the last book you read? You got ME! It took me a good 10 seconds to put a title on the book. (A Neil Gaiman graphic novel recommended by my 12yo. “1602”, kind of fascinating Marvel universe twist.)

  42. Ellie*

    How many law offices really use paralegals? I’m graduating in December with my associates in paralegal studies, but I’m starting to get concerned that it’s not an easy field to get into. I plan to get my bachelors after my associates. Do most law offices prefer a paralegal with a bachelors?

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Everyone I have ever worked with (I’m in government but work with oodles of private law practices).

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        Shoot, should have added that my govt. entity as well as the others I regularly work with also have paralegals (probably fewer per atty. than firms tho).

    2. Lucky*

      In my experience, every law firm employs paralegals. Experienced paralegals are especially valued as they can handle work that would otherwise be done by an attorney (i.e., not strictly admin work) and their time is billable. Also, (again, in my experience) an associates degree in paralegal studies is more valuable than a bachelors degree in another field like liberal arts, communications, etc. You may still have to start in a more admin role like Legal Assistant to learn the ropes, and maybe in a less prestigious/interesting area of law (think personal injury rather than mergers & acquisitions), but you should def. be able to find a job.

      And, as I have told more than a few friends who have gone the paralegal route, consider moving to an in-house legal department in a company at some point in your career. Paralegals in law firms can only move so high – you’ll never be promoted to a lawyer position – but in-house, you can end up as director of legal operations or managing a whole contract management department.

    3. Syfygeek*

      The legal departments of corporations use paralegals. The one’s I’m familiar with had paralegals with associates. And the larger the law firm, the more likely they will have paralegals.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I used to work as a paralegal – in my experience even a small firm will have at least one paralegal. And in my experience they’ll take either an associates or a bachelor’s, but wouldn’t need both. I have a bachelor’s in political science… which was enjoyable but literally taught me nothing about actual work in the law field.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As noted, they’re everywhere within all firms! Even solo practices want someone to do paralegal work because they don’t want to be bothered.

      I do want to caution you that it may be hard to find that first job but that’s the case with any degree. A friend couldn’t find anything within her educational background {BA} and then went to get her associates to become a paralegal. She couldn’t find a job in that field either BUT that was a few years ago and with the economy being less of a mess, I am hoping it was just a regional/timing issue. Just a word of caution for anyone in general who gets a degree for an otherwise decent career track. I’ve seen accounting degrees rot too =(

  43. Amber Rose*

    The time has come. I must develop safety procedures for safely using a biological warfare weapon that is also used for testing various equipment, dimethyl sulfate. It vaporizes to air and the vapors irritate your eyes and lungs in concentrations as low as 1 ppm. It’s a mutagenic so I’m concerned that even if it’s just irritation, the long term effects couple be a problem.

    The plan is to draw it through a resealable membrane with a syringe and inject it into another bottle with a similar membrane that will go into an enclosed system that will run through, cycle into another bottle, and then be used again. Excess vapors will vent to a substance that eats this stuff with an additional charcoal filter past that. Excess liquid is burned off to create less harmful gases we already use daily. So it’ll never really be exposed to air… except when the needle is drawn back out of the bottle, presumably there will still be some on the outside of the it.

    For all you folk who work with dangerous chemicals, if we immediately pop the syringe into a neutralizing agent, would enough be there to vaporize to cause problems do you think? A fume hood is not an option. The best I can do is give the guy a face mask and some goggles/gloves, and probably a rubber apron just in case. If that bottle breaks or spills on his skin… death, probably. :/

    1. Kate*

      I have worked with dangerous chemicals that are highly pyrophoric. My suggestion is to be very, very specific to good syringe technique. Our training for syringe technique was some of our most thorough in our lab. One misstep would get you put under constant supervision until you could prove you had the correct technique. Practice with bottles with liquid and the correct positive pressure.

      Also, does this kind of work meet OSHA (if you’re in America) requirements without a fumehood?

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m not in the US. I think we’re OK because technically the documentation only says we need an independent air supply face mask if we do a risk assessment and determine it’s needed. But I feel like that’s overkill for the tiniest possible amount of exposed chemical.

        I don’t even know how to train on good syringe technique. We’ve literally never used them before.

        1. Kate*

          Speaking as an inorganic synthetic chemist just about every chemical I work with says it’s going to kill you. And I’m still alive, so that’s a good sign.

          As for the syringe there are a couple things to think about:
          1. If you are transferring from a sealed container (like a sure-sealed container, https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/chemistry/solvents/sureseal.html) you are going to have to adjust the pressure in the container to stay neutral. You need to have a vent needle in the membrane with a flow of non-reactive gas (like nitrogen). Same goes for the transfer bottle, if it is a closed system.
          2. Get a syringe that allows for the needles to screw on! Some just pop on, some screw on. The pop-on ones just do not stay put! Every fire we had was due to pop-on needles (don’t worry, they were always small fires :) ).
          3.When using a syringe never withdraw the plunger close to or in the direction of your face. If the plunger comes out it can splash up at you. And if there is resistance do not continue to pull, this means the pressure in the container is very low.
          4. When we had contaminated syringes we would leave them at the back of our fumehood for a day to allow for the chemicals to dissipate before cleaning them, do you have a high ventilation area available?

          You could look for a university in your area and see if there is an inorganic chemistry research lab there, they would be able to show you proper syringe technique.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Hey, I think that’s the company we bought from. So yes, probably that. It’s in some kind of metal hazmat packaging right now so I haven’t actually seen the bottle.

            I’ll talk to the guys about the pressure.

    2. Name of the game*

      Are you seriously crowd sourcing the answer to this life and death question on AAM? This is quite possibly the most disturbing thing I’ve ever seen on this website. I really hope this is made up.

      1. Kate*

        They have to start somewhere! I don’t think they are going to use our comments to form their safety plan. But it is an obscure type of question and being able to get a starting point is important.

      2. Amber Rose*

        I have few other resources. You can hope it’s made up all you want but this was left on my shoulders to deal with and I don’t have any background in the safe use of chemicals. I failed my last chemistry class and that was 14 years ago.

        That said, it’s not quite THAT life or death. The odds of the bottle breaking are very slim, and the total amount of the chemical is very small. It’s about as risky as sending out the techs on cross-country trips in trucks. You CAN die in a car accident, but you can’t just not drive ever.

        What else am I supposed to do?

      3. fposte*

        Amber Rose is a regular commenter in an office that’s given her little support on safety concerns in the past as well. If you have other resources to point her to (keeping in mind she’s not in the US), I’m sure she’d welcome them.

        Amber, just to be clear, this is dimethyl sulfate (DMS/sulfuric acid) and not DMSO? When you mentioned it earlier I assumed it must be the latter, but it sounds like it really is the former. Is there a provincial authority you can consult on approved practice and training?

        1. Amber Rose*

          Yeah, DMS.

          Not too much in the way of consulting authorities. We do have a chemist in house now and I’m planning to run my rough outline of a safety plan by him when he gets back from his business trip. I also have someone who works in a hospital stealing their syringe best practices for me. It’s not the same but should give me a basis.

          My concern is more long term damage than short term, but there’s so much documentation and most of it goes over my head.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        That is not the biggest thing I see here. To me the biggest thing is that people here know what she is talking about and they are helping her. AR knew where to go with her question, she was right about asking here.

        I am not sure how long you have been reading here but we have people to explain just about anything. I remember one person who went to great effort to explain to me about the concept of memory cells. It was so fascinating.

        I am always amazed with what people share here.

      5. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I was more disturbed by her story of the delivery a week or three ago!

    3. JustaTech*

      I don’t have any suggestions (I only work with biologics) but I want to thank you so much for caring about getting it right! (And your company too!)
      I’ve seen way too many places (mostly universities) that have no plan or training. And I’m still working with people who are very “eh, it’s not *that* mutagenic/tetragenic”, so it is wonderful to see someone really care and want it get it right!

    4. Lora*

      Nope nope and nope again. That’s not how you handle that stuff. People have died trying to do the setup you describe with similar hazardous reagents.

      If you don’t have a fume hood AND the ability to do nitrogen pressure transfers, you don’t have the setup to handle it. End of. The proper way to handle it is via pressure bottles and you pressure transfer with nitrogen to the system vessel.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah, the more I looked into it the worse it sounded. I talked to my boss about it and we’re going to attempt to outsource this process to a chem lab nearby.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Update: I attempted to outsource this process to a chemical lab who said (paraphrased) “no, DMS is way too hazardous, wtf.”

      So I printed that and gave it to my boss and now I think I have leverage to see if we can just totally get rid of it and use something less terrifying.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, please. Granted, I’m by no means a chemist, but that’s why I thought “Oh, I’m sure she’s talking about DMSO, and that’s pretty easy to handle safely”–I couldn’t really track that they were bringing in DMS.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Our R&D manager sent me documentation on the effects of DMS and I’m gonna have nightmares forever. I can’t believe either that anyone thought it was a good idea to bring this crap in.

          1. Name of the game*

            I didn’t mean to be so snarky earlier, it just sounds horrifying. Good luck.

          2. Agnodike*

            If this kind of thing is happening routinely, you could consider reporting your company to the relevant regulator. I don’t say this lightly – people need to work, I get it! – buy your job is not worth you life and the lives of others. This sounds like a dangerous place to work and it sounds like management isn’t invested in changing that.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I think we’re trying to figure out how to measure H2S in condensate. Or something. I don’t know, my background is not technical so most of it goes over my head.

          1. Lora*

            Naaaah they’re doing it wrong in that case. You add a known amount of silver nitrate solution and it forms a precipitate you can easily and safely quantitate various ways (drying on filter paper and weighing, spectrophotometer, whatever).

    6. Yes, I am a Rocket Scientist*

      You MUST have a fully detailed plan that addresses all of the “what if’s”. What if the bottle breaks, spills, liquid accidentally shoots out of the syringe, the worker accidentally stabs himself with the loaded syringe, etc. How will you prevent each incident from occurring in the first place and how will you respond if it happens. If you don’t have the required equipment (fume hood) you cannot conduct the test. Worker exposure or death is not an acceptable option.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’ll add secure disposal and 100% theft-proofing of any supply on hand.
        If your researchers refuse to give it up contact the vendor for THEIR safe handling specs. That should have been supplied with the initial sales material so your group could decide if you could handle it before receiving it.

  44. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I just realized recently that I’m more nervous for giving references than I am for interviews of my own. Which makes sense, since I’m super anxious for my former reports to get the jobs they want and so I’m learning to reel in my excitement that they’ve gotten to the reference stage. When it’s me, I’m the one on the line and that’s how life just is but when you’re feeling responsible for someone else that you care about, yikesssssss.

    Just rambling because it’s been boiling up inside since I gave the reference and I’m going to cry if they don’t get the job because they’d kill it and have wanted to move on for years now.

    2. Angwyshaunce*

      Several years ago, a (wonderful) consultant I worked with was looking for steady work, and asked me to be a reference. Being unfamiliar with the process, and not good at business stuff, I didn’t bother researching how to be an effective reference- I just winged it.

      Went alright until the prospective employer asked about this guy’s weaknesses. I didn’t have an answer, and fumbled with something like “oh, I can’t think of any.” The employer seemed flummoxed by this response.

      The thing is, this consultant is great – works hard, produces great work, very attentive (even answers questions from out of the blue about projects from 7 years ago), highly ethical (charges less if he comes in under hours).

      I simply couldn’t think of any weaknesses he may have had. And I still don’t know how I’d answer that question without reaching or making up bad things.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m the same way. I don’t focus on people’s weaknesses unless they’re my own. Otherwise I look at all the positives. Otherwise I’m not going to be giving any reference at all. The only weakness I could think of for this person is that they don’t always stand up for themselves and I’m not ever going to say that to someone who is a prospective employer because LOL-NO.

        I want to burn “what are your/their weaknesses” in a big fire pit and roast marshmallows because it’s where that question belongs. I get the “idea” behind it but it’s another one of those trick questions that you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

        My only thing is worrying about coming across as a friend that is masquerading as a former manager because I’m super stoked to talk about someone being great. I hope that they would be willing to look at the fact that our LinkedIn’s show very clearly that we worked together at least.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Maybe you can tell a brief story that only a boss would know and through that story the caller will see that you are indeed the applicant’s former boss.
          The truth shines through in the uniqueness of things people think of to say.

          I met a friend of my father’s who I did not know. He did not know me either. My father had passed away at this point so neither of us could verify through my father. He thought I had broke into my father’s house, so he drove onto my father’s property to see what was up. I could tell from his stance he had a concealed weapon. He told a story of something that happened to my father. The details of the story meshed with what my father had told me happened that time. I filled in the blank parts that he had left out or did not know that my father had told me.

          We both stared at each other for a minute. Then we both realized that the other one was who they said they were. A faker could not possibly fake knowing that much detail. He also told me he was a prison guard, which explained why I picked up on the strong possibility he had a concealed weapon. We introduced our respective spouses and they went on to being a huge help in dealing with my father’s property.
          The truth comes through in the specifics of what we think of to say.

  45. Kate*

    I have my first one year review at my job coming up next week. My supervisor is happy with my work. However, I think the job is a terrible fit for me. I am more than capable of excelling in my position but I am finding that how I actually spend my time does not match the job description and the environment is pretty negative. I don’t think there is much my supervisor can (or would be willing to) do about these concerns, which is why I haven’t brought this up before. Do I just lie and make bland statements or should I try to voice my opinion? I’m looking for other positions but my field is small and it could take a while to find a good fit elsewhere.

    1. Auntie Social*

      You could say something. The job description said x, will I be able to do that soon, since it’s one of the reasons I took the job??

  46. Quietone*

    Came in yesterday to a rose and a Mothers Day card. Nice gesture BUT I remember when I was trying to get pregnant and seeing this on everyone elses desk would have been SO VERY HARD. I mentioned to my boss but he thought those responsible would likely shrug it off. Its weird cause in so many other ways they are onto it..

    1. WellRed*

      Gross. This sort of gesture does not belong in an office for so many reasons, including the one you cited.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Very hard agreement from me.

        I believe that if we are living as adults should we carry a willingness to help others around us. This can be construed as a form or aspect of parenting and is thought of that way in some circles. We could move to “Human Being Day” and give everyone roses and I’d be good with that.

        OP, maybe you could ask why the men are not given roses on father’s day.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      You mean they put a rose and card on every woman’s desk? Ugh. That’s SO inappropriate.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Good God I can’t imagine how my co-worker would react…. a few years ago she lost her child to cancer.
          I’d speak up again, this is potentially painful in so many ways.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is when I can appreciate my father’s view on Mother’s Day being for YOUR mother and not every mother in the world. I asked him as a kid why he never did anything for mom for MD “She’s not my mom, she’s your mom, that’s your job.”

  47. DiveDude*

    I run llama dentistry for our NGO. Llama dentistry works closely with llama grooming, and their team is approaching meltdown. Person after person has quit and the least senior are now left. The atmosphere in llama grooming is terrible.

    I need the llama grooming team’s input to deliver my llama dentistry projects – but I am starting to despair of getting their deliverables. Llamas may or may not turn up with bright and shining fur, and people ask whether perhaps I could just scrub the llamas myself, if I really need a clean llama.

    The stress is getting to me, and I’m intermittently on the verge of tears or profanity as I think about the projects I’m not getting done. I hate doing substandard work, but I look ahead at the next year and see a parade of grubby llamas with flea-ridden coats. I’ve spoken to the COO which helped (we agreed I would worry about one project at a time, and take on extra staff for me) but this is all getting too much.

    Any advice?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      One department in turmoil can drag the entire company down as you’re experiencing. The COO needs to get that under control and demonstrate it’s being fixed reasonably fast or you really will not keep your sanity at all being tied to that group. So do your job, do it the best you possibly can and keep in mind you may need to leave because of this or it will eat you from the inside out. I hope that’s not the case and truly hope that it’s not doomsday but please don’t forget that it’s the executives jobs to keep each department working at least decently harmoniously with the others. Hiccups happen, some departments are going to be more lax than others but not to this kind of level.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Quietly start looking to see what your options are else where. People who do not realize they have options or do not seek out options can find themselves in a real high pressure cooker fast. Make sure you are doing what you need to take care of you in as many ways as possible.

      Go back to your boss and ask him about time frame. Ask how much longer you will be expected to work this way. Explain that crappy work is going out and it’s going to be a real problem for you, him and the company.

      With some jobs people can get cited or even jailed for shotty work. Do NOT allow this to happen to yourself. If you know you are violating regs or worse yet coming close to a jailable offense, just get out. No job is worth having your rep ruined or facing jail time for.

    3. So anonymous I'm not even here*

      I think I have more sympathy than advice as have been through something similar. Focus on one project at a time and wear virtual blinkers so you don’t see the other stuff. Look ahead in days/weeks rather than months/years. You can’t fix llama grooming but the fact that your COO has acknowledged the problems and the effect that they are having on you is helpful. In the meantime take care of yourself so you don’t get more burnt out.

  48. Interview but I worked there before?*

    I am a freelancer. I worked with a company for 6 months and left end of January as my contract was up and the person I was covering on maternity came back.

    I’ve been with a different company I don’t like as much and now have an interview with a different manager (same department – different team) at the place I used to work. Its very informal. Jeans and T-shirts workplace. I’m lost about interview attire, Is it still smart to dress in a suit? Also what do I ask at the end for having a question? I already know the ins and outs of the role, I’ll just be doing it for a different region than last time. I also already know this manager and his management style and all of his team unless someone has left, but it feels weird to ask about that as it feels more gossipy?

    What do I ask? I’ve never interviewed somewhere I used to work before… Advice?

    1. 1234*

      I would ask “Since I’ve left, what, if any, new policies and procedures have been developed?” “What new projects are you/the team working on?”

      I would not wear jeans and a tshirt but I wouldn’t wear a suit either. Something business casual?

    2. londonedit*

      I’ve just done this. It wasn’t quite a formal job interview – sort of a mix of a formal interview and an informal chat, because I was the only candidate they were considering.

      The dress code at the company is quite relaxed – I would usually wear jeans and a smart top, or a casual dress, but for the ‘interview’ I went one step up on the smartness scale and wore smart/casual patterned trousers with a plain smart t-shirt and a blazer.

    3. Southern Yankee*

      Does it make sense to about the differences of new region vs former region? If it’s supporting that region, so they have different needs or customers with different expectations. etc.

    4. Nope, not today*

      If you know what you need to about the role already, what about focusing on your manager and the people you’ll be working with, if they are different than before?

      Also, considering you’ve done this job, for them, very recently I don’t think it would be unexpected or weird to just say you don’t have any further questions.

      1. Samwise*

        Mmm, I wouldn’t say I had no questions. I’ve been in my office since the Dark Ages and I have questions! That is, since you’re familiar w the place, you should be able to ask some insightful questions. If I were interviewing you, that’s what I would expect.

        And, agree w suggestion above to get smart trousers, a nice T-shirt or shell, and a well fitting blazer or cardigan. Don’t be as casual as everyday in the office, it’s an interview so you need to spiff it up a bit.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Dress like the next level up would dress for meetings with an outside vendor?

    5. JulieCanCan*

      Maybe slacks and a biz casual top? No blazer or if you want to wear a blazer, have a nice v-neck t shirt underneath. Mix of casual and semi-biz casual.

      Maybe ask how this department or region is managed differently compared to the one you were involved with when you freelanced there before? Question areas in which l they are hoping to strengthen their team and then (after their response) add how you’re a good fit since your strengths fill those gaps. And maybe ask if they’re looking to streamline x, y or z process and offer your thoughts on those answers.

      Essentially ask questions you know will lead to discussion of areas you’re strong in. All roads lead to YOU! ;)

      Good luck!

  49. applegail*

    I’m starting a full time contract project soon where the trainer is transitioning out and is currently working reduced hours. Anyone have suggestions on the best ways to get up to speed effectively? There’s always a learning curve, but I haven’t run into starting full time while the trainer is part time.

    1. Southern Yankee*

      Learning by doing can be very effective, so when the trainer isn’t there, do as much as you can and note down detailed questions for when they are available. Asking a lot of questions at once can also help the trainer see the patterns or a big picture concept that will help you understand the framework not just the tasks. Good Luck!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask for resources or names of other people that you can talk with when the trainer is not available.

      Putting your hands in and doing is the best way to learn anything.

      Establish routines and follow your routines.
      When I process X’s I do step 1, 2 and 3. I could do the steps in any order, but I do them in the same order each time so I do not miss something and at each point I have little double checks that I do. So while my order for the process does not matter to anyone, it’s a good deal for me because it helps me to stay on track and be accurate.

      Take a writing tablet and write down questions for the next time you see your trainer. Leave space to write the answer in. Date each page. Re-write or type your notes later if that helps.

      Have your trainer line you up with things before they leave for the day.

      Frame your questions to say, “When you are not here to ask, how do I figure out X or Y or Z?” Ask questions that involve showing the thought process that goes into figuring out what to do. If your trainer just blurts out an answer ask how they arrived at that answer.

  50. Not loving it*

    I got terminated from a job I hated where no one spoke to me or asked me about my work or encouraged me or told me that my manager left. I was let go for lack of work and also for not showing initiative. Ultimately I think this is for the best. I hope you think so, too.
    I’m open to advice.

    1. 1234*

      It’s seriously them, not you. They have horrible communication skills. Did Manager just stop showing up one day and nobody was around to manage you?

      Move on. Depending on how long you were at this job, I would leave it off my resume.

      1. Bruiser Woods*

        I agree from what you’ve said sounds like your workplace was the problem. Good luck finding something new. Try to forget about it and not take it personally.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s hard to show initiative when you’re working with people who won’t include you, smfh. They set you up to fail, this isn’t on you, they are stinkers.

      I hope you find something that makes you happy!

    3. Samwise*

      Agreed that it’s not you, it’s them.

      For the future, you can work on the initiative piece by asking your manager for input and coworkers for insight rather than waiting for them to come to you. For the manager , you could ask for regular check ins, say once a week for the first few weeks or whatever seems right for that office and job. If you aren’t assigned a trainer or mentor, ask the manager who they’d like you to go to and : or ask who is especially insightful or helpful.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You dodged a bullet.
      That job was what I think of as hell on earth. Good riddance.
      If you ever see this again, promise yourself that you will not make yourself stay as long as you did here. You deserve better and you can get better.

  51. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Venting: last year, a sugar bowl manager reached out to our director of crockery and said “Hey, heads up, one of my sugar bowl painters just took her teapot certification exam, so if any of your teapot teams have an opening soon, please keep her in mind, she’s awesome and would excel in any role you might put her in.” So DoC forwarded her resume to my teapot team when we had openings. We interviewed her, her answers and qualifications were good, her manager reiterated the glowing reference, and we hired her as an internal transfer.

    Seven months later, she’s about a third of the way through our 15-week training process and struggling mightily. (11 out of 12 people that we have trained with this process have been extremely successful, including the other person who started the same time she did, so I don’t think it’s us or our training program that’s the problem here.) We found out at the six month mark that while EXTERNAL hires have a six month probationary period, INTERNAL transfers have 3 month probation, so she’s past that and we have to go through the formal PIP process to do anything about it. Teapot Manager went back to her previous manager and was like “Look, she’s really struggling and she’s been with Dishes R Us for over 20 years, we really don’t want to just fire her, do you have any positions that we could transfer her back, since she was apparently a rockstar for you?”

    “Oh, wow, I’m not surprised she’s struggling, we always had a huge problem in training her on new processes and whatnot. I don’t know if any of the managers in our department would be willing to take her on, knowing her background.” Recordscratch.

    So now I have a certified (god knows how, which is a whole different issue) teapot designer who can’t design teapots, is in fact so bad at designing teapots that we had to put her on 100% review because we were afraid of legal and compliance risks if we let her design on her own, that is taking up the majority of two team leads’ time to review everything she even looks at cross-eyed through a 30 day PIP because the damn sugar bowl manager LIED THROUGH HER TEETH on an internal reference. (And this is not helped by the fact that, despite having been told multiple times that her job is at risk because of her performance issues and maybe she should start applying for postings back in the sugar bowl or creamer areas because she is heading for termination, she just keeps blithely smiling and insisting that she doesn’t want to be in sugar bowls or creamers, she wants to be a teapot designer, so she’ll just do her best!)

    My boss was like “Well, sugar bowl manager feels kinda bad.” I said “SHE SHOULD FEEL BAD, THIS IS LIKE 97% HER FAULT FOR LYING THROUGH HER TEETH AND THIS POOR LADY IS ABOUT TO GET CANNED AS A RESULT.”

    1. Alice*

      What the heck… This is not the first time I’ve heard of a manager giving a glowing reference to a bad worker they want to get rid of, and every time I’m left speechless. Do the managers not realize that this will destroy their credibility and the worker will end up being fired anyway?!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        right? Bad enough when it’s a false good reference to another organization, but internally? Great, now NOBODY in my department org chart is going to trust you about anything anymore. Congrats :P

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, that manager would have done this employee a kindness by firing her way back when – now, this person will be back in the job market with little to no accomplishments for her resume and, I assume, she’s older, so will be competing against younger people with more current skills. This is a mess.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      It sounds like the Sugar Bowl Manager also needs a write-up or PIP.

    3. RandomU...*

      Ouch… So the most likely scenario is that you were knowingly sold a not stellar employee so that the former manager didn’t have to go through the process of firing her.

      There is an alternative story that I’ve been a party to that could mean it’s not the former manager’s fault. I had an employee to talked a great game and at one point caught the attention of our CEO. To the point that my boss was asked several times what we were doing to advance her. Honestly, she was an inconsistent employee that was very immature and not ready to advance.

      We basically had no choice but to ‘help’ her advance. Basically we encouraged her to look for other positions for things she felt she was ready for. I’m not sure if we were ever directly asked about her performance, so we let her go. The most generous description of her outcome is that she crashed and burned in spectacular fashion. I felt terrible for her manager but there wasn’t anything I could do about it.

      I think also I was an employee that was pushed into a role by a different CEO. It was pretty apparent to me and the temporary manager (long story) of the truth. So we had a frank discussion where I admitted I had no interest in his position and only agreed to it because the CEO asked me (and it was the deal for a project that I did want). He didn’t really want me either, and only agreed because he needed temp coverage and the CEO offered me. We agreed I’d give it my all for the short time I was needed and then we could both walk away. I’m not sure which of us was more relieved by that agreement :) I really was terrible at that job.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        The Director of Crockery forwarded us the email where the manager had, unprompted, started raving about how awesome this employee was, and the manager reiterated her excellent reference when we reached out to her directly. I don’t think anyone else was behind it, unfortunately. :(

        1. RandomU...*

          Yeah, that was the most likely scenario.

          Well, think of it this way, you might be taking one for the team here, but at least you’re addressing it. She could have been a marginal but passable sugar bowl painter (you know not great but doing enough just to meet the absolute bare minimums) while the new job is certainly out of the realms of success and she does seem a little unwilling to take the direct words of… go back to something you might be able to succeed at because you probably won’t succeed here.

          At least you are addressing it early, and know not to trust the sugar painting manager again :)

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Man, if that sugar bowl manager told me the sky was blue at this point, I’d go outside and check. Twice. :P

            *I* mostly just feel bad that, yeah, maybe she was just marginal, but she’d been trucking along where she was well enough to have been employed for well over 20 years, and that’s a lot of job history to have colored by “And at the end, I was fired for being incompetent at what I was hired to do.”

        2. Admin of Sys*

          Was the conversation about the employee being problematic held in any recorded format? Because if so, I would directly involve the manager’s boss / higher ups on the fact that they offloaded a bad employee on a different department with malice aforethought. It also might be worth it to see if the previous manager had documented anything about said employee with HR or in performance reviews, because if they deliberately lied to you in an attempt to get the problem employee to go away, that’s just as bad as falsifying other records that offloads work onto another department. The fact that it’s a personnel issue rather than, say, inaccurate inventory doesn’t make it less of an act of fraudulent behavior.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I don’t think it was, unfortunately, just a phone call. But at the very least, part of this process on our end is making sure that our Director of Crockery knows that she was grossly misled.

    4. Me*

      Oh I would flat out go to HR and ask for their guidance. It may be fire or it may be forcing the old team to take her back (the latter happens a good bit in my world).

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        We did — they (say they) can’t force her old team to take her back, and they’re the ones who helped us put together the PIP she’s on now. The HR rep did provide our manager info about a position that is open in another team who’s manager (having heard the situation, no false references here!) is willing to let her shadow and see if she’s interested; our fear is that she’s going to completely hand-wave that option with the notion that somehow she’ll start passing our PIP and pull herself out of the fire, based on her history of unrealistic “I’ll do better” statements.

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          Move on. Put her on a PIP, fire her when she fails, hold a grudge against the lying sugar bowl manager.

            1. valentine*

              Is this happening because no one fired her at the end of either probationary period? Ideally, they would’ve fired her when it took her more than a month to get through a week’s training. I don’t get the coddling. Everyone’s prioritizing feelings here, including the employee, who’s deluded and doubling down instead of happy to go quietly back to something she can passably do until retirement. Weird that she doesn’t even have that much ambition.

              1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

                My boss (who is the one with the hiring/firing power) is a big squish and hates giving anyone bad news, and she thought we had the full six months to get her going, plus we had the thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years holidays in the first stretch, so the bad progress got overlooked in the holidays and year end nonsense. Not an excuse, I def know we should have done something earlier. But my boss was operating under the six month probation standard, not realizing hers was only 3 months because she was an internal transfer – if we had known that up front, I think things would have been handled differently.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Explain to her that if she were going to be doing better she would shown more improvement by now. “As it stands your PIP is not going well. I would like to encourage you to look at x job in y department so you do not lose your paycheck entirely.”

          IF she restates that she will do better, tell her she has already told you that and repeating it makes you think you have not gotten your message across to her. Ask her if she understands that her chances here are not looking good so far and it would be wise to consider other options.

    5. Former Retail Manager*

      Ahhhh yes…I work in Government and this is sadly all too common. Employee struggling? Making your life difficult as a manager? Give them a glowing evaluation and reference and encourage them to apply for other positions.

      While sugar bowl manager sucks, the employee also bears some blame. Just because she wants to do a certain job, doesn’t mean she’s well suited for it. We had an internal employee who did exactly this a few years ago. The manager told her that there was no way she would ever improve to the extent needed and working out the PIP was a mere formality. He strongly encouraged her to return to her old position at the org or apply for others. He went above and beyond to try and help her. She flatly refused all offers and finally agreed to resign in lieu of firing. Although it’s a tough spot for everyone, the employee needs to see the writing on the wall.

  52. and I oop*

    How would I negotiate title, pay, etc. for an internal position if I’ve been working outside my engineering discipline for the past several years?

    Background: I have a BS in electrical engineering but have been working as a Senior Maintenance Engineer in a position that is more civil-focused for 6+ years. I applied for an internal position posted as Electrical Design Engineer I, II, III or IV. I interviewed recently and should hear back soon. If I am offered the job, I want to be prepared to discuss a change in title or level. I wouldn’t expect to be a Senior or a IV, maybe a II or hopefully III based on my 3 years in more electrical-focused work at the company combined with my highly developed “soft” engineering skills. I would like to keep my current pay, or if that’s not possible, ask for more vacation. Any tips, thoughts, advice? For added context, I work at a utility.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Do you have your PE? I assume not, but that would be a factor in your level. I worked places where non PEs could only be level 3, even with 20 yrs of experience. Generally, an 8-yr engineer in a baseline COL area should make around $87k. A 1 yr eng should be about $70k.

      I work in power at an EPC firm, but what I find is that you can move positions, and they keep you at the same salary, but your raises will depend on your new role. So, if they slate you as an EE 1, and you make EE 3 wages now, I would expect your salary to stay flat until you get experience in EE and catch up to your pay. In my business, EEs make more than civics by a lot, so you will probably be fine.

  53. Excluded*

    I live in Europe. My department is very multi-cultural with people from lots of different countries, including me. There are 3 people that are all from the same different country to the one we are in. They speak all day in their native tongue. I am trying so hard to be compassionate about it but they are excluding others and even ran off a very nice temp because she felt isolated and unwelcomed, very loud and distracting and they don’t interact with anyone else unless required then its very direct yes no end of conversation. A 4th person from this same country joins in often and is one of the two managers for our area. Though not my specific manager. She interacts with them more than the rest of us though I suspect its being able to understand their conversations that drives her to join in rather than an intentional slight.

    It is annoying me and a few others. its especially bad as its all day and they are in the middle of our open plan floor section. We can’t move desks.

    Any advice for how to address this and with who? Or how to let it go? I listen to headphones but I can’t have them all day and their excluding all others feels very rude.

    1. Nicki Name*

      Are these work-related conversations? If they aren’t, maybe ask if they can have their loud personal conversations somewhere outside of the workspace, and avoid making it about the foreign-language aspect?

      OTOH, if these generally are work-related, and there are people who need to know/do things being excluded from these things due to a language barrier, that’s more serious. But it needs to be addressed by their chain of command.

      Since it sounds like these aren’t people you work with directly, all you may have standing to do is talk to your manager about how having frequent loud conversations in the same room is affecting your own work. If you do want to bring up the additional dynamic about exclusion, try to keep it to a business framing– not “they’re being rude by hiding what they’re talking about” but “I’m concerned that important information isn’t getting to the people it needs to get to.”

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I am American, and in my first real job, I was the only American in a group of Eastern Europeans. I moved to Europe and held one job that was pretty multicultural (Russian and Arabic were often spoken although English was the native language of the region), and I’m now working at an office where I am the only native English-speaker on a team of French speakers where French is the native language. My point is that I think I have enough perspective to tackle this.

      At my first job, I was incredibly lonely. I worked in a 600 square foot office with people who spent all day talking to each other. There were days where I only got a “hello” while they chatted throughout the day. I’m pretty introverted, and I can handle working on my own, but I couldn’t help but feel hurt on a daily basis. If I’d had more experience and wasn’t the peon in the office, I would have spoken up and said something like “Hey, I get that speaking in your native language is easier, but do you think you could include me once in a while?”

      My next job, with a multi-cultural team, was different. There were about 20 people in the office, and groups of two or three would share the same native language. They chatted to each other on coffee breaks, but they spoke pretty quietly. What was really different was that all these people were fluent in some degree in English unlike my first job. Other languages were spoken in the break room only, which leads me to think that they weren’t discussing work-related things in a language no one else could understand.

      Now I’m on the other side in my office. I don’t speak French, at least not on a work level. So I do discuss work with my colleagues in English. Not everyone in the office speaks English, so that has limited my interaction already. I know it’s awkward if I’m grabbing a tea and speaking in English and someone walks in who doesn’t understand English. It’s awful. But I get that *I’m* the problem.

      So, after reading through your question: 1, you ABSOLUTELY have a right to ask them to not speak so loudly. 2, if the relationship is there, I’d have a sit down with them individually and explain that you and others are starting to feel very unwelcome and that you’d prefer they only speak in the common language when discussing work. 3, you definitely should ask your boss or their boss or whoever to ask them to only talk about work in whatever the common language of the office is. It’s not about being racist or anti-diversity. In fact, it’s about being as inclusive as possible. Any good employer would want to shut down harmful cliques from forming.

      1. Less Bread More Taxes*

        Edit to add: my first job was in the US, my second was in Ireland (so English was the common language for both), and my third job is in France.

    3. Introvert girl*

      I think you’re working in my office. They are really lonely because they can’t communicate with anyone because they don’t speak the language. You can’t force them to use your language but you can ask them to take their loud conversation to the kitchen as you’re not able to do your job with that noise.

  54. Bruiser Woods*

    Is this an appropriate email to send to my direct report?

    Thanks for the update. I will review the document and provide my comments .

    I am confident that this report will be finalized and issued to the Client on time.

    However, I would like to clarify a few issues that you’ve raised in your email.

    Firstly, I do not wish or require you (or your coworkers) to work late days, nights or public holidays to finish this report. As a matter of fact, I urge you not to. If you don’t think that the remaining work can be easily finalised within the available work hours next week, then please let me know immediately and I will organize appropriate assistance .

    Secondly, the end of April deadline for delivery of this project is not a new thing. This was discussed and agreed with you at the very beginning of the project and you reassured me that end of April deadline is achievable. I have been checking work progress with you on a regular basis and you have been consistently reassuring me that things are going according to the plan, and the project will be delivered on time without any issues. Hence, it was a big surprise to me to hear last week that this might not be the case. I did highlight to you many times during our previous meetings that, given you are a part time employee and have Uni obligations, it is even more critical for you to work well in the project team, collaborate and rely on other team members, and have a realistic understanding of your available time and work outputs that you can achieve during this time. I expected you to consider your work availability and public holidays when developing timelines for this (and any other ) project. I do understand that preparation of the proposal earlier was a time consuming process for you, however I did check with you during that process to see if the other project was progressing well, and again you did not raise any concerns. I do expect from you, and anyone else, to raise any concerns in a timely manner before things become too hard to manage or achieve so I can make appropriate resource plans. Please, I urge you again to be pro active and voice your concerns on time – we do not give orders here, we work together as a team consisting of smart and mature individuals.

    Also, the deadline for this project is not of any higher priority then any other project deadlines. We operate on the principle that every project is important and all deadlines are critical, and the only times that we ask for a deadline extension are when there are reasons beyond our control (such as when you can’t do sampling because of weather). And the decision for the extension is a team decision, and must be approved by the relevant PM.

    Lastly, an ability to manage competing projects and priorities (professional and private) is an essential skill in any work place, in particular private consultancy. We all manage competing priorities on a daily basis, and many of us have been doing this for many years. I do understand that this skill is something you are still acquiring and will be improving as you progress in your career. However, we have previously talked on several occasions regarding your ambitions and desire to get involved more in projects. We agreed that when the work load is light you would focus on your Uni work, but when things get busy around here you would be available to fully dive in and get involved on many projects. You have highlighted your desire to be given more opportunities and responsibilities, and hence we were very excited when we finally had an opportunity to have you working on projects (or potential projects) that were exactly what you emphasized to be of interest to you. However, if you find involvement on multiple projects to be too hard to manage or too stressful, again, please let me know and we will organize your further workload accordingly.

    I am happy to discuss with you any issues that you might have with your current workload and performance.

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Personally, I would do this in person (presuming you work in the same location). It’s a lot and raises several important performance issues and I’m not sure email is the proper venue. Plus, if I got this as an employee I would also have a million questions.

      2. MissBliss*

        Thirded. I’d say the first three sentences and say “let’s talk in person so I can answer any questions you may have.” or something like that.

      3. Kathenus*

        Very much this. As I was reading it I thought all of the information is important but that it’s a direct face-to-face conversation not an email, preferably.

    2. Murphy*

      It sounds pretty scoldy, but without knowing the context it’s hard to offer advice. This seems like maybe it should be a conversation, unless there’s a reason you need to document it in writing. Even then, it might be better to have the conversation and send a follow up email

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Any chance you can do this in person instead? It’s a lot to digest as an email and I think would be a better as an in-person conversation.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is something you should talk to someone in person about.

      When there are concerns like this, there needs to be a face to face so that tone and body language can be seen/heard. If they’re not in your office, call them at least!

      I think it’s okay to follow up with an email pinpointing what you discussed but this shouldn’t be your only form of communication. Emails shouldn’t be this long, ever. It’s going to overwhelm your report and make them feel a lot worse than the length of time it would take to discuss it verbally. It will also give them time to speak to you and clarify.

    5. CM*

      Same: if this is something where you can talk to the person calmly face to face, I’d do that. I once had a remote employee who missed a bunch of deadlines on a project despite telling me everything was great, and I tried to talk about it over email, and that was a mistake. Once we switched to a phone conversation things went a lot better, and I wish that’s how I’d started.

      If you must do it over email for some reason, I know it’s probably too late to give this advice, but I’d focus on the first point of clarification right now — that you don’t want them to do overtime. The other two, about the scheduling, updates, and deadlines, can probably wait for a separate conversation about how the project went once it’s all done. And, if you’re responding because the person said something in their email, you can say, “Let’s talk more about the scheduling issues after everything’s done.”

      I’ve been in situations where people biff deadlines and it feels aggravating because it seems like they don’t understand why it’s a big deal or like they lied to me at the check-ins, and I haven’t always had the perfect response when that happens, but the way I always wished I’d approached it is to ask them why they fell behind on the schedule and why they didn’t tell me when they realized they were falling behind, and then listen to the answer. So less, “You need to meet your basic obligations as an adult!!” (which might have been how I felt sometimes, when I was frustrated) and more “Tell me what happened from your POV.”

      I’ve also been on the flipside of this before, where I’m working on a project with insane scope creep or where other departments didn’t hold up their end of an agreement or where an executive keeps meddling and changing the direction every three or four days, so I know it’s actually possible for projects that begin with a reasonable deadline to become completely unreasonable as time goes by. That’s part of the reason to hear what’s happening from the other person’s POV.

    6. Not A Manager*

      If you can’t have the conversation in person or on the phone, I would HIGHLY edit this email and boil it down to the equivalent of bullet points (whether or not you actually put it in bullet points). The form could be “summarize assignment/situation; identify problem; provide guidelines for this issue in the future.”

    7. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

      I took some aam advice and started writing down things I wanted to say as a script to practice and remember what to say. This is a good script to use to talk to employee in person.

  55. Heather Kangas*

    I have a new boss who has asked all of us to share our calendars with her. I think it should suffice if I share away, busy, free and nothing too specific. What are other people’s thoughts?

    1. irene adler*

      The more you share of your schedule, the more information boss can potentially use against you in some fashion.
      I’d go with what you have. It is clear as to your availability. Isn’t that the reason boss wants this info? To know when you are available.

      1. Everdene*

        This is a very cynical attitude. This would make me wonder what you’re hiding.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      At old job, we shared our full calendars with the team. If someone needed a team member, we could say that they were in Conference room B, meeting with Director Fancy, or whatever. I didn’t mind putting hair appointments and dr apts on my calendar because I trusted them.
      At current job, we just share the busy/free calendar. But the team also needs to know when you are at certain meetings, at conferences, or on PTO so everyone needs to make additional meetings to share with the team. That seems like over kill.
      So it all depends on your team and the culture. There are pros and cons.

    3. Overeducated*

      Shared calendars is the only easy way to schedule meetings where I work. I don’t see any reason your boss shouldn’t know about your meetings and deadlines. I just wouldn’t share personal stuff on a work calendar – my default setting is public, but if I have to put something personal in there, I manually set it to “private.”

      1. RandomU...*

        Agree. Our calendars default to shared so I can see any of my team’s calendar (I don’t usually look). I can only assume that my boss can also see mine.

        The only time I care what my employee’s schedule looks like is if I’m planning a meeting (again this is a default feature for outlook) or if for some reason I’m wondering about workload and meeting impact (my company is meeting heavy). I think I’ve only looked for the second reason maybe once in the past 10 years.

      2. SignalLost*

        Agree. My org operates this way (including the president) and it often is an issue of “how interruptible is this thing?” We are also required to report our time to the feds, though, so we have an elaborate color chart we have to use. And most of the staff here works outside the office so it’s helpful to know that so and so is in Delaware rather than busy.

        I think, honestly, we’re just all so over calendaring that we don’t care. I don’t put any detail on personal stuff beyond “doctor appointment”, and I track details in my bullet journal. But I don’t really want someone to call me while I’m getting a blood draw, and I am required to carry and answer a work phone.

        I guess what I’d say is that my office is respectful of what’s actually on the calendar, has an obligation to report it anyway, and it’s a mutual sharing so I don’t feel monitored.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      Obviously anything personal on your calendar should be set to private, but I don’t get the concern with sharing the specifics of meetings?

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Yes, this. If the calendar system is simplistic enough to not have privacy rules, just make sure to label anything that you don’t want your boss to see the details of as general ‘personal time’ or ‘private meeting’ or the like. The advantage of shared calendars is that you can tell the difference between your direct report having a one on one with a vip in a conference room, vs them attending a casual work session it’d be appropriate to tag them out of if something critical came up.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Go with whatever the norm is in your office – in my experience it’s always been full details (with anything private marked private), but find out what your coworkers are doing and copy that!

    6. Everdene*

      When I joined my current team this is exactly what I did. I definitely need to see if my reports are in orout of office, with a client, scheduled in for admin time etc. In return I share my calander so my reports know my schedule. To me this is a no-brainer and the people who initial pushed back were flagging to me that they were not team players. I also asked all the team to share calanders with each other. They were horrified by that because of petty squables. 2 years down the line none of this is an issues and all calanders are shared. (With use of the private lock when appropriate).

    7. Samwise*

      Why wouldn’t you? I assume your boss wants your work calendar? So, it’s reasonable for the boss to know your work-related appts/meetings/tasks. If you have been keeping personal stuff on there too , stop and just indicate “lunch / out of office” or PTO or “no appointment” or whatever.

    8. Windchime*

      Our calendars are all shared in my office. Even the Director of the department shares her calendar; it’s so we can all quickly see where people are or what their availability is. If I have an appointment that is personal or private, then it’s up to me to mark it “Private”.

      1. Heather Kangas*

        My only pause is that I am a clinician (the only one in my office) and I need to keep confidentiality when I meet with certain people (clients). It is part of state regs and a code of ethics for my profession. I just marked that stuff as private since she wants to see the whole thing. She seemed to understand my need to keep these appts private.

  56. Myrin*

    Peaches! If you have the bandwidth to share, what’s been going on regarding the Coworker Chronicles?

  57. dangling legs*

    Pity party vent…Handicap accessible toilets.

    Our office has two single occupant bathrooms. Both are handicap accessible. I am short. It would be so nice to be able to go to the bathroom at work and have my feet touch the floor. It can make things….difficult. I totally get how regular toilets are a problem for those with mobility issues! But in the 10 years I’ve been here, we’ve never had anyone with a wheel chair need access to our building let alone our bathrooms….and I use them everyday :(

    1. Manders*

      I feel your pain! Do you think it would be possible to get something like a squatty potty that can be kept in the corner of the stall? I’m 5’0″ and those changed the game for me.

      1. dangling legs*

        I have one at home and love it. I’ve been looking at some folding ones, we’re not allowed to keep things on the ground (for the cleaning staffs ease or something like that), so I’d have to have a hook installed or something.

    2. wafflesfriendswork*

      I had a doctor’s appointment yesterday and was struck by how incredibly undignified hopping up and down from the exam table is anyway, much less when one is short! I always rip the paper!

    3. Llellayena*

      As a fellow short person AND someone who has to design for the handicap toilets, I get it. You might be able to leave a short stool in the bathroom to put your feet on? Unfortunately, it’s not just wheelchairs that need the higher toilets (anyone with hip issues, especially recent hip replacement people and a few other mobility related, invisible disabilities) so any public bathroom will have the higher toilets.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I understand all that, but as someone who really needs the room in the stall, but needs a low toilet, I will admit it’s a little frustrating that all the toilets in the roomier stall are too tall for comfort.

        1. valentine*

          Those of us who need high toilets didn’t decide to deprive you of one that’s of proper height for you. I suppose, with only two toilets, it makes sense to make them both accessible if distance is an issue. One such bathroom I’ve used had a stepstool in it. If that would/n’t work for you, is there a facilities person you can contact? You can also tell your manager the accessible toilet’s inaccessible for you and ask what your options are.

      2. Mimmy*

        Aspiring ADA professional (not one yet…hope to be!) here – I assume the high toilets so that people in wheelchairs can easily transfer over to the toilet seat?

  58. ORD*

    I have a question for those who work in higher ed in places offering a tuition benefit. If you’ve used it, have you taken classes in areas directly applicable to your role, classes in areas you’re just interested in, or both?

    1. Murphy*

      I took semi-related stuff that I was also interested in (statistics). I thought about taking some other random stuff just for fun, but ended up not having the time.

    2. Part-Timer*

      I haven’t taken any yet because I am blunt in higher ed part-time and do not yet qualify for that benefit. If I eventually work enough hours to qualify, I plan to do a combination of both — a grad degree in higher ed admin and some classes (maybe audit-only) just for fun.

    3. Asenath*

      I took classes in a program that was relevant to my job plans. I have also done other classes out of personal interest, and although co-workers suggest I ask for the tuition, I didn’t because it seemed too dishonest, even if my supervisor would have signed off on it had I asked. The policy was that the course should be relevant to work, and I didn’t think “Well, learning new things in a completely different academic area develops my thinking skills which I use at work” made sense under the circumstances. Other employers may have different policies.

      1. ORD*

        Where I work, there’s no language regarding which classes are taken, only that a supervisor needs to sign off on any classes that meet during work hours. If the circumstances were more similar to yours, I’d have difficulty asking for tuition as well!

    4. MissBliss*

      My org lets us take classes at the school (I think inside or outside our field) for free. For external classes (tuition reimbursement) they have to be applicable to our work. Just got approved for tuition reimbursement this week!

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      When I did this (many years ago) I was in a non-degreed role and was getting a degree so I could get out of that role. Didn’t matter.

    6. anonymous possible future phd student*

      Two examples of how to use the tuition benefit, though neither of them are actually me:

      1. My friend and I work at two Ivy League universities. Friend has a great tuition benefit–she can take courses for a relatively small fee (something like $150, which is very manageable based on her salary at the university). She’s taking courses in a field mostly related to her current work and extremely related to work she might want to do in the future. She’s also considering grad school, so she’s picking courses that would give her more relevant background for a grad program and exposure to topics she might want to study more. So, not like, “I need to take this course to be better at my specific role right now,” but in the zoomed-out view, courses that are relevant to her field.

      2. Meanwhile, my Ivy League university gives a very good benefit but only if you’re not taking classes at the university in question, so I’m not taking advantage of it right now. One of my coworkers is using the tuition benefit to get an online master’s, and the university we work for is paying for the vast majority of it, even though it’s not in a field directly related to her current role. There’s definitely nothing unethical about using your tuition benefit to study something that interests you but isn’t relevant to your current role, assuming that the university doesn’t discourage you from doing so.

  59. LimeRoos*

    Quick question – I’ve accepted a new job starting 06/03 and am planning to give notice Monday – so 3 weeks. However, current company doesn’t pay out PTO, and I would like to ask for a few days off, since it is a benefit I’ve accrued. I was thinking Friday, Friday, Tuesday – so two 4 day weeks and a 3 day week. I can get all my work done with the shortened weeks, but I’m afraid if I ask that they’ll ask me to leave early…or just refuse the PTO. It’s a mixed bag if people work their full 2 weeks or are asked to leave immediately – some people have been walked out but some have given 1.5 months notice with no issue. Any advice?

    1. irene adler*

      It’s not in their interest to let you take PTO. Especially since they don’t have to compensate for any untaken PTO when you leave.
      It IS in their interest to have you at work for the full term of your notice, wrapping up loose ends, training replacement, turning over projects to assigned co-workers, etc.

      And, at any time they can change their minds about any agreement to let you take one day per week for the next three weeks.

      I would take those PTO days soonest (like next week). Then give them minimal notice of your leaving (2 weeks if that’s considered standard).
      I would not expect them to grant permission for taking any PTO once you give them notice.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Some states require you to pay out unused PTO when you leave, but not all.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’m going to be in the same situation and this is my plan. I’m setting my start date 3 weeks out. I’m going to tell my current manager that I can do 3 weeks if I can schedule a few PTO days, otherwise I will just work out my standard 2 week notice and take a one week break before starting the new job. Then I will see what my manager feels comfortable with.

      1. Kathenus*

        This is a great approach. And for the poster on this, they can point out that if they work the three weeks with the few PTO days versus two weeks and take a week between jobs that this option offers current employer more days for them to wrap up and help transition.

    3. Hope*

      See if you can get next week off (or most of next week). Give notice when you get back. Don’t expect them to give you PTO once you hand in your notice.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly. I’ve only seen one place do this – my old company I worked at two years ago allowed an adjuster to take a week of vacation off during his notice period because he was going back to school to study law, and they knew he was close to burnout from the job and that he would need to be sharp for school. Had he been leaving to go to another employer, I don’t think they would have allowed it. No other division in our company allowed you to take PTO during notice periods.

    4. LimeRoos*

      Definitely late, but thanks everyone for your advice! I turned in a 2.5 weeks notice, and was able to use some PTO :-)

  60. Domingo Santana*

    We have a new manager and she hasn’t really shown any interest in our staff’s professional development like our previous manager did. Has never asked where we’re looking to go, how we’d like to get there, if she can provide assistance. Maybe this isn’t her job. Should I schedule regular check-in meetings with her to try to achieve this end? Should she be more naturally inclined to invest in her direct reports? Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      You can certainly ask her about professional development and indicate that you’d appreciate her support with such endeavors. It may be that she’s unaware that she can do this; it may be she doesn’t care to. You’ll find out fairly quickly which it is after one meeting.

      In some work environments, there’s nothing ‘natural’ about investing in one’s direct reports. Where I work, there’s no point; no one is ever going to be promoted. Nor is the job likely to change much. Yes, they expect some turnover. Hasn’t been much though.

      1. Manders*

        Agreed, this is so dependent on the job that I don’t think there’s a rule of thumb that applies to everyone. I’ve worked at places where managers didn’t talk about professional development, or even actively discouraged it, because there was no way to move up in the company and they were afraid of people leaving if they improved their skills and wanted higher-level work. Now I work at a place where professional development is pretty much mandatory because the company’s growing under me, so I have to learn to take on higher-level tasks.

        Did your previous manager ever tell you why they were prioritizing professional development? Is there anything about your work that makes professional development a natural fit for the kind of role you have or are expected to have in the future?

  61. MissBliss*

    I just sent out my first fundraising email appeal at my new job. It’s the largest appeal I’ve ever sent. But it’s cold– all lapsed donors or alumni who have never made a gift. So of the tens of thousands of people we’ve emailed to… 0 donations so far. There’s 2 more emails in the series so I’m hopeful it will pick up but right now it’s so frustrating! (Especially because the only feedback I’ve gotten so far was one email response that called us “pushy” from someone who hadn’t received an email in 6 months.)

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Welcome to fundraising :) Honestly it’s a success if anyone even clicks through it. I think the standard is like a 25% open rate and like <10% donation rate. People are weird and will sometimes go out of their way to say mean things to fundraisers, so just expect that and try to shrug it off. You got this!

      1. MissBliss*

        Oh, thanks! This is actually my third fundraising job, but my first time doing *this cold* of a campaign. On the upside, the only people unsubscribing are the cold alumni, not the lapsed alumni and non-alumni lapsed donors.

        I’ve definitely made a mental note in case I ever manage someone else, to make sure their first appeal is to a warm audience!

  62. Coverage Associate*

    My interview Friday went so well I already had the call back yesterday. They will likely make an offer if I clear conflicts.

    Pros: large, well-resourced firm; really nice people; coverage nerds like me

    Cons: team has been together forever, so I would be the new kid for a long time; 100 hours higher billable minimum than my current; would set me back on the way to partnership compared to my current role

    So lots to think about

    1. NACSACJACK*

      Question : if you make partner at one firm, do you get to be partner at another firm?

  63. Part-Timer*

    Do employers assume that your jobs are full-time unless otherwise specified? I have had lots of part-time jobs that are awesome ad resume-worthy, but there is nothing about the title or responsibilities that screams “part-time” — would a potential employer be upset to learn that most of my interesting work experience has come from part-time positions? Should my resume somehow reflect that explicitly?

    1. Overeducated*

      I don’t really see why, but I used to work in a nonprofit field where a lot of positions with plenty of responsibility were part time due to budget, it’s about what you accomplish in your time and not the quantity.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I think they assume that the jobs are full time. A while back I was interviewing and was asked why I left Acme company and I told them it was because I was part time and I was looking for full time work. They were surprised, I’m assuming they assumed it was full time work.
      I was concerned that employers would think that I wasn’t reliable, or wouldn’t be able to handle a 40 hour workweek, but I don’t think they care at all. They just want to know about your experience.

  64. Snow White*

    Sometimes I feel like being polite, engaged seeming, and “looking the part” of an ambitious young professional is more important than actually being good at my job. I came up through office administration where looking like the right kind of person behind the desk, and just like, showing up was half the job … and now I think I still have this mentality. I’m like, “I’m *here*, aren’t I? In my business casual? with my middle class college educated signify-ers? Sounding pleasant and responsive and with it?” And the truth is I do get away with it most of the time.

    It’s not a great feeling.

    1. wafflesfriendswork*

      I know exactly what you mean. I’ve been hired for admin positions where it feels like I got it basically because I’m a warm body who has a pleasant demeanor and knows how to groom themself properly and compose a professional sounding email. Trying to find ambition has been a struggle. Slowly getting there! But it sucks.

      1. Snow White*

        “Pleasant demeanor” yes exactly! And yes it undercuts my professional ambition. I just want to get paid a lot to show up and I’m trying to dig deep and find passion / skill etc. I was the exact same way in school, too – always did well because I was the kind of kid that teachers just *felt like* was smart and with it. This is not imposture syndrome by the way – I really do just sit at my desk screwing around all day.

        1. wafflesfriendswork*

          We’re the same person! My teachers always loved me, and I truly did love learning, but had trouble getting the work done. I have ADHD-inattentive type (not trying to diagnose you, just part of my experience), which was part of it, and def developed some bad habits, but also just had trouble finding a passion I could click with for a long time. Changed my major more than once in college, took ages to finish, annnnd then suddenly the workforce! I wish I didn’t have to work, could just stay home and bake and do what I want, but I am unfortunately not a trust fund kid (I would be so good at it, though).

          1. Snow White*

            Oh my god we are the same person. I don’t really like being told what to do or having to work at all, I really just want to garden and putter around with my (non lucrative) creative pursuits, but sadly am not independently wealthy so here I am showing up in my j crew cardigan and pencil skirt, reporting for duty.

            1. wafflesfriendswork*

              Solidarity! May we someday come across large piles of money, or at least have enough vacation time to make all of this somewhat worth it.

    2. Friyay*

      That can get you *into* a job. But I think people notice eventually (I do, anyways. But I don’t have the ability to do anything about it and in certain types of employment, it takes something egregious to be let go, so those types of people are just because the ones everyone side-eyes and elephant-graveyards). so, can you step it up? Or is this imposter syndrome talking and maybe you’re actually doing a fantastic job and doing what needs to be done? Not everyone has to be a rock star or take initiative or work 50+ hours a week to be a great employee and coworker :)

      1. Friyay*

        *become the ones. and I see your reply now about imposter syndrome, sorry, I wasn’t quite there yet! Maybe this type of job is one where being present and doing what comes your way is enough? have you had any complaints or feedback? *says the person who is also screwing around because she got all her stuff done for an event tomorrow done by Thursday so feels like she’s earned the right to kick back, ha*

        1. Snow White*

          My evals are always great, but I feel like it’s because my bosses are like, “snow white is so pleasant and easy to get along with, I love her” and get distracted by other more problematic employees. I don’t think I can coast forever though and I probably will never get promoted. I have to decide if I can live with that.

  65. Overeducated*

    RANT! I applied for an internal transfer a couple months ago. This is usually the only way to move up because very, very few positions are eligible for non-competitive promotions. You do not have to ask supervisor permission before applying. Well, I heard from my current and former supervisors this week saying they’d had reference calls for this position. The hiring manager is using references to weed people out BEFORE deciding who to call for an interview. So great, now my current supervisor is aware that I’m on the market with the first application I put in, for a job with a known internal candidate I may just withdraw from anyway if my attempt to buy a house in my current area turns out to be successful in the next couple of weeks.

    In the grand scheme of things it’s not a huge deal, my job not will not be in danger, but I’m just frustrated because it seems like a breach of hiring etiquette. This job is such a stretch anyway, this is not the one I would have chosen to reveal my hand for – there is a known internal candidate doing the job already, it involves experience I don’t have, and I’m also in the process of buying a house in a location that would make me withdraw this application (figuring that both offers and job applications are gambles, so I’d try for everything and see where the chips fall).

    ARGH.

    1. Overeducated*

      Sorry, there is some repetition there due to failed editing. Can you tell I’m annoyed?

    2. Murphy*

      Oh no, that sucks! I’ve never heard of anyone doing that, and I can’t even imagine that’s a good use of their time.

  66. Lilith*

    Did anyone see Sharktank last Sunday? Two guys were promoting private phone booths for open offices. I thought about a lot of the posters here. The booths has bi-fold doors & went for around $6k I think. My memory stinks–I can’t remember if a shark took the deal. The booths were very quiet.

    1. rfr*

      I saw Shark Tank too. I think someone did invest in it, maybe Kevin? Anyway, I just thought that it is so sad that companies have done away with private offices and this is what it has come to, you can’t even have a private conversation anymore. If these companies have open offices because they want to see and hear everything their employees are doing at all times, then they aren’t going to spend an exorbitant amount for what are essentially private phone booths for people to talk in.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “Did anyone see Shark Tank” Of course I did #obsessed

      I thought the same thing when seeing their pitch, with all the people around here who have talked about their open office problems.

      The small phonebooth was 6k and the large conference one was 15k. The margins were horrible AF and the sharks were like “nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.” They were too niche for anyone to invest in because of the big office furniture world it’s involved in. I couldn’t fault them for it.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      I remember that a small library electronics company, Interface Electronics, used to sell a “cone of silence”, a clear acoustic bell shaped object you’d hang over a noise source (for them it was them new fangled multimedia workstations back in the day) to contain the noise; some trick about air movement and sound waves. Sadly they would demo them with speakers and people thought the speakers were the product. they later updated it to work with speakers and now the company is no more. Damn shame; they actually worked pretty well. If our company really puts us all in a bullpen layout in our next office I want them over every desk so we don’t have to hear each other’s dictations.

  67. Question for Librarians*

    I’ve been out of college for a few years working different jobs & I think I’ve pinned down that I want to be either a librarian or an archivist. Between the two, there are more librarian jobs open where I live, so that seems like the better career path (even though archiving sounds more fulfilling, realistically the job market doesn’t look that great).

    I love helping people, doing research & going to outreach events & developing programs sounds like fun… but I don’t think I can emotionally handle difficult customers day in and day out (It drains me working in retail).

    So now I’m wondering if being an academic librarian is more of a fit for me? What is the main difference between working in an academic library vs a public library? How do I figure out if I’m a fit for being an academic library if I only have a Bachelors? I don’t want to begin the process of getting an MLIS unless I’m 100% certain this is what I want my career to be.

    1. Hibiscus*

      I have a MLIS, and I advise against getting one. Seriously. Even if it looks like there are plenty of jobs in your area, even if they all require a MLIS.

    2. annakarina1*

      I’m an archivist, and I currently work in library and archives in academia. I’m not a librarian, but I’ve seen that visitors to the library are a lot less than in a public library, often making appointments ahead of time, or just wandering in for questions. It’s more of a research library than a circulating one, so people who come there usually look at archives that the librarian found for them.

      I became an archivist because I enjoyed studying history, organizing items, and looking at historical documents. I worked in publishing and arts non-profits, and found my place in archives several years ago, and it’s worked well for me.

      I don’t have advice regarding being a librarian, but I wish you the best in finding a good career path for you!

    3. GigglyPuff*

      I have a MLIS and technically have an archivist title, but work in a more specialized area. Not gonna lie, it’s really hard right now. The best thing would be to work in a paraprofessional library job to see if it something you want to do. Some places are good about not hiring MLIS people into those jobs to give others a chance, but many get so many MLIS applicants, even if it doesn’t require a MLIS the person hired usually gets one.

      Based on what you say you’d like, academic seems more like a fit, instruction librarian, or a new one (which means far between in the job postings), is community librarian (basically outreach). I’ll admit one of my professors was very candid about working in public libraries, the majority of them you will have to deal with difficult customers and most likely the homeless (which I knew enough about myself that I’m not good in those situations).

      So my advice, volunteer, part-time job, paraprofessional job first (if you’re able to time and financially), to make sure it is something you want to do. I went right after college, had no idea what area I wanted, ended up getting extremely lucky and getting a job during grad school because they needed an extra person on a grant. But I’m like a lot of the rest now, looking to move on from my position, where I have experience but not the next level of experience (management/high level project mgmt.), so it’s been extremely difficult because I’m competing for people who’ve been working longer and in some instances even new grads with less experience but newer ideas/better education.

      Also, and I know the job market might be even tighter, but if you enjoy programming and outreach, maybe look into museum work too?

      1. Question for Librarians*

        I’ve been trying to apply to part-time librarian & full time library associate jobs (aka librarian jobs where you don’t need a MLIS), but those seem to be snatched up by the part-time circulation staff that’s already in the system.

        I currently work part-time at a small museum and while the pay isn’t much, I do enjoy it. It’s the first customer service job I’ve ever had where I actually like talking to the customers! I love how fascinated they are in the history and I love being able to increase their knowledge of the history of the area.

        Out of curiosity, is it possible to transition from working in an archive to working in a library?

        1. GigglyPuff*

          I would say it depends on what your area is of work. Traditional archives work, not so sure, but things like reference and technology (where I am), seem to be more transferable. Possibly even cataloging, but it depends on the type of cataloging you’ve been doing in an archives as they aren’t traditional the same catalog languages (can be, just not common).

          But definitely agree with OneMoreAlison, be willing to move. The first few jobs are probably going to be part-time or grant work. The people I noticed who got full time jobs after were already ones who’d been working without the degree for a long time, teachers moving into school media library jobs, or people who were heavily involved in graduate level research with professors. I started with a part-time for seven months after my degree, then got a grant job that lasted two years, before I got my permanent current position (which I had to move for).

          My recommendation, like others, find out what area you’re most interested in, (going in without a plan sucks because if I’d known what I was doing now was what I’d be interested in, I probably would’ve gone to a different program because they all have their strengths and areas of expertise) and then reaching out to people already doing it for informational interviews.

          1. QuestionforLibrarians*

            I thought that since I lived near in the DMV area, I wouldn’t need to move for archiving work, but after looking at jobs that are available, yeah I need to accept the fact that I’d need to move around a lot for jobs. I’ve seen a few university jobs with titles like “University Archivist & Special Collections Library,” so that’s why I was wondering if archiving & being a librarian can have transferable skills.

            Luckily, I’m in a position where I can volunteer/job shadow at either an archives or a library so I can get a feel for what it is I like & what I’m good at.

    4. OneMoreAlison*

      Former Archivist here. I would definitely recommend not going into this career unless you are willing to move anywhere to get those first couple of jobs. Also, make sure that those library/archivist jobs in your town really require an MLIS, maybe even reach out to a librarian in your town to see what the local environment is like. Ask for an informational interview.
      -If there is a MLIS program in your town, the competition will be insane, people that have been working in libraries for years will get those positions rather than a career changer.
      -I graduated in a cohort of ~25 – 30 archive students, I can count on one hand the number of them that are still in the field. MLIS does give you some good skills, but don’t count on them leading to a career.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I actually really feel angry about your last sentence. I got my MLS in 2002, and I have worked as a librarian for about a year. At this point I don’t think I’ll ever get another library job – why would they hire someone who graduated so long ago and hasn’t been working in the field? And everything I looked at back then said librarians were going to be in high demand!

        What a waste of money.

    5. Princesa Zelda*

      If I may, I’d like to piggyback on your question!

      Right now I’m working part-time as a circulation attendant at the city library, volunteering my weekends at the state library, and going back to school to finish my undergraduate degree. I have a massive 3-year gap in my undergrad, and my program is online, so I don’t have relationships with the professors. I love library work and I really do think I want to do this for a career — even living in different places all over the country for the first few years is a bonus, since I’ve always wanted a job that involves traveling or living in different places.

      However, I’m concerned about what I’m going to do when I start applying to MLIS programs in the fall. I don’t really know if having some work experience (2 years at the point I’ll be applying, and volunteer experience in high school) and passion make up for an unrelated undergrad degree (Political Science) that has a big gap in the middle and is probably going to only be about a 3.3ish GPA. I also know that the field is saturated, and I’m concerned I might not be able to find work (even page or circ work) when I move to go to school — won’t I be competing with all the other MLIS students and grads? Obviously, I’ll be utilizing AAM’s resources to make myself a good candidate, but I’m worried that if I have to work food service/retail through the whole program I will be less marketable.

      TL;DR: I’m thinking about becoming a librarian too, and would also appreciate advice, especially about MLIS!

    6. Business Librarian*

      Academic positions frequently require a subject master’s as well as an MLIS. If you get your degree in a state with a lot of library schools, the competition is even more fierce. All the librarians that were supposed to retire and leave open positions did retire, but later than they meant to because of the economy, and then budgets were cut so their positions were replaced by part-time positions.

      Also, if you want to go ahead because I think it’s the best job in the world, remember that it is a customer service position no matter where you are. Academic libraries have fewer issues than public libraries, but we get some doozies too. My best advice would be to start listening in to librarian conversations. Look online for listservs or publications that talk about the current issues. While you’re in school, look for volunteer opportunities that allow you to plan programs (your local historical society?) or teach (a program for your local Y or Scouts?). Look at your state’s library association’s information and see what it would cost to be a member. I just checked and the Texas Library Association has an advocacy membership for $37 and students are less. It costs more to go to a conference, but there will be lots of info available to you as a member.

      If you get a job as staff in a library, you’ll still need to do this because you need to demonstrate your librarian skills, not just familiarity with the library. There are so many graduates chasing the few positions, that you really need to stand out. And I’ve written a wall of text! Good luck!

  68. softcastle mccormick*

    Could I have some perspective from some more seasoned office workers on a situation? I mentioned it yesterday in the “Pettiness” thread, but I’m starting to wonder if I’m crazy or not experienced enough to understand how office politics “work.”

    So, I’ve been working at my office for about a year and a half now (first office job out of college). Since I started, our supervisor left for a better job and her role was never filled, so even though duties have been absorbed, we are essentially leader-less, and are managed only by our large department’s manager who is often absent or seen maybe once every week or so. Through this time, our team has had a member, Susan, who is a chronic over-sharer, know-it-all, and just generally workplace-propriety-inept person. She has a great skillset, lots of knowledge of our processes, and is eager and willing to deep-dive into issues and figure things out, which has made her a valuable team member to our boss, who relies on her to find kinks in the system that cause issues. Our department has had some turnover, and though her role isn’t indispensable, the knowledge she brings really is quite important.

    However, Susan is a notorious pest. She is disruptive of both daily activities and meetings, blurting things out, leaning into your cubicle to start long discussions, going on 10 minute rants about her other job at a restaurant, and most problematically, talking in graphic detail about her sex life, romantic encounters, bodily functions, etc. This is a known problem. Folks have had conversations about boundaries in the past, and it gets better for a week, but then comes back, because she considers us her “girlfriends” rather than coworkers. Body language and verbal cues such as “Wow, TMI” or “Gross, I don’t want to see/hear that” just make her giggle and try harder to show us. It’s gotten worse over the year, and being in the boss’s pocket serves to make her only feel more comfortable. Monday, she went to each person on our team and told us she wanted to show us a “cat video,” but instead it ended being up hardcore porn. One of the supervisors was told, who went directly to HR. Our HR lady immediately pulled her aside and gave her a serious meeting, telling her we have a No-Tolerance Policy and that she would most likely be fired, and at best, uneligible to receive a raise this review period. She was shocked and angry, and went directly to our boss to complain. The boss actually BACKED HER UP, and was furious that someone had gone into HR directly instead of to the boss! Now, she faces no consequences because the boss intervened. I’m just shocked. Is this normal? I’m not a prude by any means, but it’s just so irritating and makes me resentful that this behavior goes unchallenged in any way. Do I need to adjust my expectations? Like I said, this is my first office environment.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      No it’s not normal, and your boss is nuts. TBH I’d go back to HR and tell them that your boss reprimanded you for reporting the pr(n, which is a clear violation of any workplace code of conduct and is basically sexual harassment. It’s petty but maybe you can get them both canned. Ask for anonymity or go with other coworkers maybe?

      1. valentine*

        It’s not petty.

        I wouldn’t trust anything she says, especially about this. If it turns out to be true the boss is protecting her, I’d tell HR the zero-tolerance policy means nothing and sparing her will have a chilling effect on future reporting.

        It’s completely weird for her to be your self-appointed shock jock and you would do well to find another job before this one permanently warps your sense of propriety.

    2. Asenath*

      Not normal – I’ve never encountered anything that extreme in a long time in the workforce.

      It does sound like an extreme case of favouritism, which you do see sometimes – certain people can do no wrong in the eyes of management. Sometimes they really are true high-fliers, and complaints about them are rooted in envy. Sometimes they use their favoured position to allow their behaviour to degenerate, and they can’t be corrected because of protection from above. Favouritism is a very bad sign in a workplace.

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        Yep, it’s really difficult because in a reality she is a hard worker, she’s knowledgeable, she’s got experience, and she has versatile skill sets so she can be put to one project in one area, and then switch immediately to a relatively different area. This, combined with an incredible ability to brown-nose, has really made her the go-to person in the department for our boss, who has also grown personally very fond of her. Though this boss never walks through our area to check in more than once a week, Susan goes to her office almost daily to discuss her custody battle, her personal issues, etc., and for whatever reason, the boss indulges this. It’s almost like a Dwight/Charles Wallace situation, where the boss thinks a person is amazing but never actually observes them interacting on the floor.

    3. Llellayena*

      Nope, you are dead-on in your assessment. Susan and your boss are both nuts. I’d probably want to go back to HR (maybe with more than one person) and expand your complaint to include the boss since she is now SUPPORTING a hostile work environment (yup, it is) due to condoning the explicit video showing. Not sure I’d have the guts if HR backed off and agreed with boss though. In the mean time, be more clear with the boundaries with Susan: “I’m not going to talk about this,” I’ve told you before I’m not interested in that topic,” “No, I don’t want to watch that video.” Don’t know how much it will help and she may say you’re being rude, but at this point it’s the consequences of her own actions in pushing these conversation topics on you. Good luck.

    4. LCL*

      Going to HR was the right thing to do. Some things you just can’t do in the workplace. The type of complaint to work out amongst yourselves would be minor things like she leaves her backpack in your way, etc. Do you know for sure she faces no consequences? That is a sore spot here, something is told to HR, HR keeps whatever actions are taken confidential, so it may appear that nothing happened but really whatever happened wasn’t talked about.

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        No, she told me personally that the boss was shocked that someone would report her for what was “clearly just a joke,” and that no further action has been taken. I actually wasn’t the person who went to HR, it was a coworker who told a supervisor who then reported it himself! I’m just at a loss.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          “It’s a joke” doesn’t fly as an excuse.

          This is what they say about a lot of sexual/unlawful harassment issues. “Oh I was just joking!”

          Well the law doesn’t look kindly upon jokingly exposing others to certain things. This includes pornographic material and graphic sexual details. Next she’s going to “jokingly” send you some personal pics. Would it be a joke if she just pranced into the office without clothes on? Would it be a joke if she “accidentally” exposed herself? No. No that’s indecent exposure. You don’t get to expose others to this kind of thing and it doens’t matter if she’s not touching you or the other people involved.

          Report the update to HR because what the boss is engaging in is unlawful as well. As a leader in the company they’re on the hook even more so, they can be sued individually for allowing it and brushing it off. This is why it’s so vital that people receive harassment training *screams*

          1. Samwise*

            Right, intention doesn’t matter — behavior does.

            OP, Follow through with HR as suggested. If they don’t address it promptly, I strongly encourage you to file an EEO complaint. Right before filing the complaint, you might go to HR one more time to let them know you will be filing — sometimes that will get things addressed. But only if it seems it will work and not if you thing it will jeopardize your job (of course that’s against the law, but you don’t want to be paycheckless for any amount of time).
            You coworker is bad and your boss is worse and, if they don’t follow through, your HR is the very worst. So sorry you are going through this.

    5. anony-Nora*

      It would be normal at my office, but we have no HR here and our VP is sleazy and gross. It shouldn’t happen in a real office, especially one with functioning HR. Seconding the go back to HR advice. It’s not okay.

    6. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      100% not normal. We have a lot of people in my line of work who well-meaning but lacking in social skills, so we are much more tolerant of the boundary-challenged than a lot of lines of work, and I can say flat out, we would consider this behavior Not Normal and pursue immediate Corrective Action against it.

    7. Ann, you perfect sunflower*

      This should not be normal, and I applaud you for not wanting to just accept this or resign yourself to it without at least trying to do something.

      I agree that you should go back to HR and your complaint should be broadened to included that the manager is aware and is now *knowingly* condoning the harassment. Showing someone pornographic material at work is unacceptable under policy and perhaps even local or state statutes, and if the company is allowing it to continue by not following through on their policies that are designed to protect their employees, it’s absolutely unacceptable and now even HR could be implicated here…

      Alison often writes posts where she includes some very specific language that’s designed to make those in charge and/or HR sit up and take notice when it’s clear they need a push in the right direction; it might be worth going back through some old posts to see if you can find some of that language. Good luck.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your boss is going to get you all a great settlement out of the sexual harassment lawsuit I hope you file if this EVER happens again. Seriously. I’m not kidding. Subjecting you to this sexual nonsense, even as a woman with other women is a lawsuit bubbling up right there in front of you. Document it all and speak with an attorney.

    9. Anonandon*

      Any sexual harassment lawyer would be drooling at the chance to take this case.

  69. Culture Fit Questions*

    Short: What are some actually useful culture fit questions to ask a candidate?

    Longer:
    The team I am on is hiring and I generally am part of the Soft Skills/Culture interview if I interview the candidate at all. This is usually three peers and the candidate. One of my fellow interviewers uses questions I
    am not sure are useful.

    Examples from the latest interview:
    * Who is your favorite superhero
    * On a scale of 1-10 how weird are you and why
    * What do you do when not at work or thinking about work
    * What is the most interesting thing about you not on your resume
    * What misconception do your coworkers have about you
    * Describe your ideal day at work

    Other than the last one, I do not think these are very good, but I figure my best strategy is to figure out better questions of my own so that these do not get as much “air time”.

    The question I asked was to describe a situation where they had to convince another person or group to do something.

    1. anonforthis*

      This question made me laugh. I once worked at a place (and subsequently got laid off from) where they put culture before everything else. Two of the questions they asked are: do you like being alone, and do you like to drink?

      Should have taken that as the red flag it was. I was encouraged to keep to myself, it was very cliquey and majority of folks were HUGE HUGE partiers (and I’m in recovery)

    2. Asenath*

      Those seem totally pointless. We might ask about previous visits to or interest in our location (many applicants are not local) or about how they think they’d fit into a high stress workplace (with examples of situations, and questions about how they’d handle them), but I’m not sure quite how effective they are, because applicants often know the expected answers, which isn’t the same as handling an actual job. Being a good fit is essential in the case I’m describing, but figuring out who actually will fit in isn’t easy – who can handle the stress, work well on teams that include different groups without offending any of them, defuse conflict situations, and so on. Previous experience can be a guide, but if hired, they’re going to be taken to a whole new level.

      1. Culture Fit Questions*

        I think the coworker may be asking more to get the candidate talking than for there to be a correct answer, but not sure they work all that well for that either.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I’m going to steal that if I’m ever asked! Not a super hero person, in the traditional sense, love the idea of giving a real life hero instead.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, while these questions are interesting, funny, and fun, only the last one about describing the ideal day at work really should have anything to do with culture fit. If someone picks a completely different superhero from the type others would pick, that doesn’t make her a bad culture fit. Nor does more or less weirdness.

      But how someone works and wants the workplace to operate is very much about culture fit.

      I just think you have to be careful, because sometimes people end up reinforcing unconscious biases via “culture fit,” instead of examining what really the candidate needs to possess to thrive and offer good things to the org.

      1. Culture Fit Questions*

        That is my basic reaction, but I am finding it difficult to articulate that since I also am not good at it (i.e. I have nothing better to offer). Hoping if I can figure out some better questions and ask them instead, there would not be time for these.

        1. Nicki Name*

          Is there a clearly stated purpose for these questions? Do you have a definition of “culture fit” written down somewhere? Do these questions seem to support that purpose?

          If the definition of “culture fit” is “has a similar attitude and cultural background to me, the interviewer” (which it frequently is, unconsciously), then there are no truly right questions, because that is a terrible way to pick employees.

          OTOH, if the purpose is clearly articulated as being able to fit in with the ebb and flow of work and information at the company, just mention potential friction areas directly. “We have a team hangout the third Friday afternoon of the month where we go to [local bar] and chat about work and life.” “___ is by far our busiest month and vacation is usually restricted around then.” “People generally have to work late in the evening for a day or two during the end-of-quarter crunch, but we follow that up with Work Hangover Day where [some fun thing happens].”

          2. Culture Fit Questions*

            The official company term is “Soft Skills” interview (separate from the technical interview). It has become somewhat unofficially termed the culture or fit interview and I think we are getting away from where it really should be concentrating due to that.

    6. L. S. Cooper*

      I got asked the misconception question, and really couldn’t tell what the heck they wanted me to say. I fumbled over something about how I appear overly formal when first meeting people in work environments, but overly goofy in casual ones. They then asked how I go about correcting that, which left me even MORE baffled. Apparently saying that I make a point of talking to people more and, y’know, letting relationships develop as they naturally do wasn’t the answer they wanted.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      If I was asked the first 5 questions, I would withdraw from consideration. I may even end the interview early, say the job isn’t a match, and kindly ask to leave. If you are hiring for new grads they may be OK, but as an experienced professional I would assume the team doesn’t have their sht together and is wasting my time. I’m in a nerd profession, and I’m proud to be a nerd, but talking about being a nerd in a job interview is kind of immature. (sorry to be blunt)
      Instead, ask the candidate why they like doing the work they do. Good matches will be excited to talk about the job/software/staff and that will give you great insight.
      Ask the standard “Tell me about a time you had a problem you didn’t know how to fix” and “Tell me about a time when you completed something you were proud of.”
      Then you can follow these answers into more questions. “Really? That project sounds interesting, can you tell me more about it? What was the development process for it?”
      Ask questions that encourage conversation. That is what will expose if the person is a match or not.
      Good luck!

      1. Culture Fit Questions*

        Thank you. These examples look good and also like something I can imagine myself actually asking. My coworker did actually ask something similar to the last one “what were you most proud of at work in the last week” and later “what was your biggest challenge last week”

      2. Sloan Kittering*

        Yes even if this isn’t what was intended as an applicant, #1 and 2 would make me feel like the org had a geeky/nerdy culture and was only interested in hiring other nerds. TBH even though I am actually a privately massive geek in certain fandoms, I wouldn’t want to work at an office that prided itself on positioning that way – and nerd culture has its own blind spots that would make me particularly wary about joining an office with that culture (google “geek social fallacies”). I agree that the last question is the best. But be honest, is this company really opposed to hiring a “basic” person who is not into performative weirdness if they are great at HR or accounting or whatever/

        1. Overeducated*

          Yeah, I also think “how weird are you” doesn’t really make a ton of sense in the adult world. It’s different when there are cliques and you’re in school, but by the time you’re working full time, you’re spending time with your own social circles outside of work and one hobby or interest isn’t really weirder than another. Is my conventionally attractive, socially gifted coworker whose side gig is sewing historical theater costumes “weirder” on a numerical scale than my spouse who loves building Legos and watching sci fi, or my coworker who apparently spends all his free time on house/yard projects but loves talking in-depth social theory? Who can say? Who cares?

          just wouldn’t know how to answer that question.

          1. Lilysparrow*

            My first thought on the “weird” question was, “compared to who?”

            (Actually it was “compared to whom,” because that’s the kind of weird I am. But I was translating into the idiom of someone who thinks asking about superheroes belongs in a job interview.)

    8. RandomU...*

      The last 3 are ok. I usually ask (after telling them that it’s intentionally a vague questions) “What’s your ideal work environment?”

      I like this one, because I get all kinds of answers and that generally gives me a clue to what the person values.
      Typical answers
      -“Variety” this tells me that a person probably wouldn’t be happy in a job that has a lot of repetitive tasks
      -“Not an Open Office” Important to know if someone would be miserable day in and day out in their desk, it also hints that this person may be motivated by things other than the work (physical environment) -Not a bad thing, and would give me a hint on how to work with them.
      -“Collaborative” – Someone who likes working with others and in teams
      -“Not too fast paced- I like to be able to focus on one thing at a time” That’s a great answer for some positions and an indication of doom for others.

      So it’s really less about the actual answer in this case (I’ve never disqualified someone from their answer) and it gives me opportunity to either explain more about the position if I think something might me at odds or to ask more questions about their answer to find out more about them.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        The first time I was ever involved in hiring, my boss (who was new to managing) and I asked “what are you looking for in a supervisor” or similar, and I swear to you, we were really feeling positive about a candidate, until she said she couldn’t work with people who swear! Bad Culture Fit.

        Now I question that whole process, since neither of us knew what we were doing, but I do think that candidate would have been miserable.

        1. RandomU...*

          I’d say it worked then. No use hiring someone who would be unhappy. In a case like this I generally explain a little about the thing that they mention they wouldn’t like. So I would have said something like “Hmmm…. So knowing that you don’t prefer working with people who swear, how would you handle our weekly “Swear like a Sailor all hands lunch?” or “Have you found yourself in a position to work with long-shore man? How did you cope?”

          I figure I can tell if it’s going to be a deal breaker for them and/or give them a hint about what they’d be getting into. Either way if it doesn’t work out then I’ve erased the illusion that it’s “THE JOB” for them.

    9. Me*

      I.hate.culture.questions.

      What I do in my free time has zero affect on my ability to do my job. Further more, trying to fill the ranks with people who “fit” based on some weird questions is a good way to get a bunch of people without a diverse outlook and life experiences.

      If it’s a fast paced environment, then asked about the type of pace they prefer working with. If it’s mostly self-directed work, ask a question about whether they work best in collaborative or independent environments. Etc. That is what you should be looking for with “culture” anything

      1. Someone Else*

        But that’s the thing. “Culture questions” should not be about what you do in your free time, at all. What you hate are stupid questions the asker claims are culture questions. Actual “culture fit” questions for a job should be about things like I can’t stand working in a quiet room/ I really prefer a quiet workspace, open offices are torture/open offices are great, parties to celebrate work accomplishments are great/I don’t ever want to be at parties with my coworkers, everybody has a flexible schedule and you can never predict who will be around/ everyone is on a fixed schedule and is always working at the same time, everybody swears/nobody ever swears, we have very specific training and protocols/we expect you to mostly train yourself and do what works for you, casual dress is fine/we expect everyone to wear business formal, October is always all hands on deck no taking time off then and no going home on time/ even during crunch time nobody is expected to stay late more than a handful of times a year and only in extreme circumstances, we have very rigid hierarchies and siloed departments/we have lots of cross department projects and everyone works together all the time.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Absolutely agree. Culture fit questions should be framed as “here’s how we operate, what do you think?”
          The first two questions (fave superhero, Weirdness Rating 1-10) are terrible questions in any kind of interview. What useful information would any answer give to the interviewers? I wouldn’t even mind personally getting the superhero question but I would be really put off by the weirdness one. That’s just showing me as the candidate that the interviewer has no idea how to interview or what to look for. There are far better conversation starters.

          Ideal work day? Also kind of a nothing question. If this job can’t offer that, does that mean the candidate is out of contention? Coworkers’ misconceptions? That’s as awkward as list your biggest weakness.

          IMO the only usable question on the list is “most interesting non-resume info” because that’s at least a way to shoehorn in something either work-relevant or makes for a fun little story. Asking what do you do when not at work is explicitly not work-relevant and therefore not useful in a formal interview (maybe during a lunch chat).

    10. To Fit or Not to Fit...*

      We’ve asked in the past about how the person deals with stress and found that helpful. We do scenario-based interview so one of the questions is about prioritizing multiple tasks, and after we say “You are likely stressed after dealing with all that. What will you do to decrease your stress?” For our fit, we also find important how they respond to drudgery, potential harsh criticism, long hours, juggling conflicting priorities but also very informal behavior on part of some constituents ;-) so we put it all in there as scenarios… and look at candidates’ boundaries, communication and flexibility… and sense of humor in the interview is a big plus in our environment. We also have usually two or three people in the interview and split it that each person is focusing on something else (sort of right brain/left brain) – one on the actual content of the answers, and another on the non-verbal clues and how they feel about the candidate as a person, which seems to help balance the qualifications and the fit.

  70. ElectricKatyLand*

    What are the best ways y’all have seen office birthday celebrations handled? Background: our department has 10-15 members pretty evenly mixed between staff and faculty, and about 2/3 women. Most of the planning, decorating, and treat purchasing for birthdays is handled by two staff (so, lower paid) who are women of color. I’m not comfortable with them continuing to manage and pay for everyone’s birthday, especially given the income disparities and gender dynamics. I don’t want to be the party pooper that ends birthday celebrations, either. My birthday is next up in the office, so I’d like to use it as an opportunity to try a new system. Please share any suggestions you have, particularly ones you’ve seen work well in person!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Best practice I’ve seen is a once per month get-together in a conference room for everybody whose birthday is that month. Petty cash buys a cake and we take 15-30 minutes to be sociable. Work is done by the office manager and admins/receptionists.

      1. Nicki Name*

        Same here, with work anniversaries included on the list. The month’s honorees would be asked about their cake preferences ahead of time too.

    2. Asenath*

      Ours are extremely low-key. We have about 9 people (depending on whether or not you count one or two who aren’t technically with the same employer), maybe 6-8 will turn up each time, senior/supervisory people don’t participate and are usually not in the office area anyway. We’re all female. One of us keeps track of the dates and the social fund $2/payday, and picks a date near the birthday after consultation with the birthday person and checks around to see if most of the others are on site then. There’s food – traditionally, the birthday person picks up a cake, but it’s paid for out of our fund. If she can’t, someone else does. We’ve started having other snacks since someone started work who can’t eat cake for medical reasons. We get together for 20 or 30 minutes at coffee break time, say “happy birthday”, eat and chat. We help tidy up, although there’s not much to do. And that’s all there is to it.

      We organize restaurant lunches about once a month, at Christmas, and for retirements (if requested) in much the same way, except retired employees are also invited at Christmas.

    3. WellRed*

      Your office lets the two staffers pay?!! So, so wrong. Give them petty cash for a once a month thing for everyone. Oh, and skip the decorations. That’s just an extra layer of demeaning work for office workers.

    4. Bunny Girl*

      That’s insane that staff members (especially the lower paid ones) are putting out their own money to fund birthday celebrations. I think if the company wants to do something, they should be paying for it themselves. However, if that’s not possible, we used to have a birthday fund that everyone paid into monthly ($5 or $10 I can’t remember which) and that went into buying lunch for the birthday person. It was totally optional, and if you didn’t want to join in with your money, you could just come and sit in for the birthday lunch, but you needed to bring your own food.

    5. anonymous potential future phd student*

      I’m a big fan of the way my office does it (in higher ed, approximately 15 people). We do a card (that everyone signs), a bottle of sparkling wine, and a dessert of the person’s choice (cupcakes or cookies for all of us). This is paid for out of our budget and comes out to about $40. As an admin with a purchasing card, I handle ordering the dessert, buying the wine and the card, and having everyone sign the card, which takes in all about half an hour of my time. We celebrate the birthday either after a regularly-scheduled meeting (if there’s one within a day or two the birthday) or on the afternoon of the birthday for about an hour.

      Key features of this system: work pays for the stuff, the celebration is very manageable for the point person (me), and it’s extremely laid-back.

    6. Imprudence*

      In all the offices I’ve worked in, the birthday person makes/ buys cake as their budget and preferences allow on their own birthday and share them around. Sometimes we get together to eat, other times people take a piece to their desk, but everyone drops by the birthday person’s desk to wish them all the best.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        They buy their own cake on their birthday?! That’s a very…interesting way to celebrate. No way in the world would I be buying treats for other people on the day we’re supposed to be celebrating me! Lol

    7. montescristo1985*

      The way we handled it at my previous office (10 people, all women) is that everyone who wanted to be in the birthday club (we made it voluntary, of course) put their name in a hat, and each person pulled out a name (obviously not keeping their own). That person was responsible for providing a cake, and organizing a card for everyone else to sign. We would set it up at the beginning of each year, and make sure everyone wanted to participate. We would make changes every once in a while, like everyone chipping in $5 for each birthday so you go a nice little $50 on your birthday, a couple years we did towels (you specified your color on the annual sheet). It was fun. I kind of miss it at my new job (everyone is jumbled together, so harder to organize dept level stuff).

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I think you have to consider income and other disparities even in a Birthday Club, though. I used to work in the public libraries and most of our jobs ranged from really part time (shelvers, 10-12 hrs per week, $7.00 per hour) to 27-28 hours. We were also pretty evenly split between students living at home, people who weren’t primary breadwinners and a few people who were trying to live on a library salary. As a student living a home and not working a lot of hours, I could probably have made the money part work (although cake for 10-15 people was a big chunk of my pay check) but I wasn’t around enough to make sure the card was signed or to know a lot about my co-workers cake preferences. For people who were more reliant on that income to live, it was a lot to ask financially. I think a lot of people felt the same way, because the Club was dead and gone after a few months.

    8. Cassie*

      Our dept started a monthly birthday cake in the afternoon thing a while back. From what I’ve heard, very few people attend – think 10 people total out of 100. One staffer buys the cake, but she gets reimbursed afterwards.

      I prefer the method my sister’s government office handled birthdays. If you wanted to celebrate your birthday, you brought in treats to share. Otherwise, you’d just get a birthday card signed by everyone.

    9. Someone Else*

      The best way I’ve seen it handled is by not doing anything in the office for anyone’s birthdays at all. I’ve worked places that did monthly things, quarterly things, individual things. Monthly was frequently complained as too frequent. Quarterly felt too far away from most actual birthdays to be meaningingful. Individual was too much effort, or handled disproportionately where well-liked people got decorations and their favorite treats and others just got cake (without their input sometimes resulting in stuff they didn’t like or couldn’t eat); departments spending wildly different amounts of money; some bosses paying out of pocket. Or someone gets offended because they were thoughtful when it was their turn to plan for a colleague’s birthday but when it was their birthday the person whose turn it was did bare minimum. Or it was always one person who dealt with birthday stuff and then got nothing for their own. Whatever the variant, it always turned into A Thing.
      Make Office Birthday not a thing? And all the stress goes away.

    10. Samwise*

      The very best is what our dept has finally come around to, which is a birthday card purchased from office funds, signed by everyone in the office, and then put in the birthday person’s office mail box. Everybody gets acknowledged in a low key way on their birthday. Nobody is left out. Nobody had to be all smiley about a party they did not want, nobody half asses event planning, nobody has to chip in $ they may or may not have. Yay!!!

  71. anonforthis*

    Hoping I can get some advice here.

    My company went through a merger back in September. As a result, I was moved into a new role, one that is arguably more senior and strategic. Five months after this move, I still have the old title and same pay. (For reference: I’ve done the research on different sites and I am making 10-20k below avg. for my market for this new role. Not to mention travel went from 5 to 25% of the time).

    My boss avoids the topic every time I try to bring it up. Finally, I was able to talk to him today. He told me that he doesn’t know when titles are going to be realigned. We are very open with each other and I used advice given here when expressing my frustration in being in a more senior role but having the pay and title of my previous role. All he would say is that it is up to HR… then admitted that HR doesn’t even know I am in this new role, so for all intents and purposes, they think I am doing the same ol’ thing. He also says my online calculators are wrong because the person in a role similar to mine at his old company made the same. Icing on the cake is that because of the merger our office is moving, and my commute will go from 7 min to 1 hr 15 daily each way. I will either have to move or shell out substantial gas money.

    I am between a rock and a heard place because I love my job, I love my team, and I love my boss…when we aren’t having hard conversations like this. I don’t WANT to leave, but at this point I am so frustrated I have one foot out the door. What do you do when you have a boss who is wonderful in many ways, but will not advocate for you?

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        Leverage your new role to get a new job with the proper title and pay, and cut your commute back down to a reasonable level. Things are just going to get worse if you stay.

    3. MissBliss*

      I’d be looking for a new job, or I’d be talking to HR. Yes, your boss should be advocating for you… But you can also advocate for yourself.

        1. Ann, you perfect sunflower*

          You don’t have much of a working relationship if he’s lying to you. It can’t both be “up to HR” and “HR doesn’t know about it.” He’s getting work out of you that you aren’t compensated for and there is no reason to believe you will be. It’s time to kick the job search into high gear. If you’d rather stay for the other reasons you listed, then you have to accept the same title and role for more work and WAY more travel, or speak up loudly about it until it’s resolved. But your working relationship with him is pretty crappy if he feels ok for one second treating you this way. I’m really sorry about that.

          1. valentine*

            He’s scamming you so well that you still say you love him. I hope that is just initial denial talking. There are letters here where the advice is to discuss returning to your old duties if they won’t pony up the cash. I understand if you don’t want to do that, either, but something’s gotta give and it shouldn’t be you on every single part of your job. Do you really love everyone enough to severely lengthen your commute (how will that be on your worst day or even if you’re just exhausted or feeling ill?) and be underpaid and grossly disrespected? If you accept no pay increase for this position, won’t you always use the amount you should be making as a benchmark and won’t the gap to where you should be increase exponentially, soon escaping your reach? You might check out Caption Awkward’s recent letter about workplace devotion and how jobs don’t love you back.

            I’m wondering if HR not knowing will end up hurting you. Seeing what they have to say is the best way to proceed, but it won’t hurt to have the parallel stream of job searching because there must be someplace with a reasonable commute that will pay you properly.

    5. BRR*

      My manager is great in a lot of ways but does not advocate for me. IMHO if you’ve been as direct as you can be (depends on the relationship) and nothing happens then it’s not going to change. I’d probably look for a new job. I might also try following up with him and asking when HR will be notified that you’re position changed. Can you ask to work from home part of the time?

    6. The New Wanderer*

      HR doesn’t know you got promoted, so you’re not promoted. You don’t have the salary and apparently not the official title (per HR), but you’re doing the work. Your boss knows that HR doesn’t know and is dodging you. Boss is not “open” with you if he’s lying about your actual role and value, avoiding the topic, and doing nothing to resolve the situation. You’re underpaid in any event and about to start losing more money with the commute (longer total hours + increased costs). I have no idea what about the boss is wonderful, but for me all of the above would be dealbreakers.

      I’m sorry, it does look like this job is a lost cause and your boss absolutely deserves no loyalty from you. Highly recommend you get out ASAP.

  72. sheworkshardforthemoney*

    This is an phone etiquette question. Most people in my workplace leave their phones in their work space because we move around a lot. The phones are on silent or vibrate. A new co-worker joined a few weeks ago and she doesn’t have a phone but said she is thinking about getting one (she is an older person so not so unusual). However, whenever someone’s phone vibrates she will go over and tap it to see who is calling. I was on my phone and smiled at a text and she came over and peered over my shoulder to see what I was reading. My phone has a case that you have to open in order to see the screen (like a book) and she has opened it when she heard it vibrate to see who was calling. I’ve asked her not to touch my phone as have a few other persons. She says she has kids and is used to answering any phone that is ringing. Is there some rule that we can use to tell her that answering someone’s personal phone is rude? Most people have their phone locked but with mine you can see texts or calls without unlocking it. Also no one uses their phone for work related activities so that is not an excuse for checking phones. Is it rude to answer someone’s else phone?

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      I think everyone needs to tell her, when she does it, “Don’t touch my phone.” If she uses the “kids” excuse, tell her that you aren’t her child.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is there some rule that we can use to tell her that answering someone’s personal phone is rude?

      Yes, it’s called, “don’t touch things that don’t belong to you” and we all learned it in kindergarten. Tell her it’s your personal phone and the calls and messages you receive on their are for your eyes and ears only and that you need her to not touch your personal belongings.

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I was just thinking “… Yes? That is the rule!”
        I can’t believe that lady has apparently never heard of it (nevermind that, certain situations notwithstanding, it’s not really normal to be answering your kids’ phones every time they ring, either).

        1. Auntie Social*

          And say this isn’t your home, and what I’m telling you is basic professional courtesy. You also don’t run over and see who’s calling, or read the text. It’s private and you leave it alone.

          1. valentine*

            The fact she looks at your phone when you’re holding it lays bare her lie. She’s horribly nosy and shouldn’t be violating her children’s privacy, either.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh that would drive me bananas, I’m honestly mad just reading about it.

      And unless someone has specifically asked you to answer their phone for them, you let it go to voicemail, no matter if it’s a landline, cellphone, or cup on a string.

    4. Asenath*

      You never answer someone’s personal phone unless they ask you to. You might pick up an office phone, particularly if you can see from the display that the caller is on your line, which you can connect to from your co-worker’s office phone. But not a personal one! She’s being rude, you are not her children, and she needs to stop.

    5. anonymous potential future phd student*

      Oh man, your coworker’s behavior here makes my skin crawl. “Do not touch my phone” should be enough, my goodness. I can understand that when folks all had landlines, you’d pick up the phone and ask who is it and who are you trying to reach, and I understand picking up the receptionist’s phone if the receptionist has stepped away from the desk and it’s ringing, but cell phones just aren’t like that. Maybe spelling out that specific difference would help? Like, “this is not a landline, it is my phone for reaching just me, and I do not want you you snooping in my personal business.” Answering the home landline is not snooping, but opening up a phone case to see who’s calling? Snooping!!

    6. Pnut*

      That’s terrible. Be sure to reconfigure your settings so she can’t read your texts, and be sure your phone locks quickly!

    7. BRR*

      This is such a basic rule that I’m pretty speechless. If I saw her going over to my phone I would now say “I’ve asked you before to not check my phone” and maybe follow up with somehow posing it as a question why she is still doing it. If she tried to look at my phone over my shoulder I would put it down and ask “Did you need something?” If she says she used to it because of her kids I would say “That’s fine for a personal rule in your house but I do not want you to check my phone.”

      I hate to suggest things for you to do when your coworker is so far off from normal on this but can you silence your phone? (I think I’m in the minority on this one but I also don’t like when people leave their phone on their desk and it’s on vibrate. Especially if it’s a multi-message conversation.)

    8. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, it’s unbelievably rude.
      A phone that is ringing persistently and loudly, being disruptive – I’d give you a pass on turning the volume down or putting it into a desk drawer. But checking someone’ else’s caller ID or texts? NO, no, no, no.

      Tell her, “Betty, I assure you that your kids are not calling me. Please leave my phone alone.” If she’s reading over your shoulder, tell her, “Betty, stop reading over my shoulder. If any of my texts are intended for you, I promise I’ll tell you.”

      If you’ve tried that and she’s ignoring it, it’s time to get very very firm. “Betty, I’ve told you before not to touch my phone. Why are you still doing it? It is not your property. My calls and texts are none of your business. Keep your hands to yourself.”

      And if that doesn’t stop her, take it up with the manager.

      There is no excuse for her behavior, it’s grossly invasive. She is not going to like being firmly told to stop. It’s entirely possible she may try to act like you are the one being rude or “mean.”

      That is a lie. She is the one being rude, and she is taking advantage of other people’s goodwill to be a snoop. If I were you, I’d lock my desk and make sure not to leave valuables or any personal papers or items where she can get at them.

      Snoops don’t just snoop in one area. If she’s willing to read people’s texts right out in the open, Lord only knows what she’s doing when nobody can see her.

    9. The New Wanderer*

      Get your coworkers on board with this plan: tell her once more, clearly, “You do not have permission to touch my personal phone. Do not touch it again or I will report you to your manager.” No softening language, just straight up. And the next time she does, report it to her manager. She’s messing with your (and others’) personal property and that needs to be stopped. Let her manager explain to her that she doesn’t get to touch because she wants to.

      For the reading over the shoulder – block her view of the screen, stare her right in the eye, and say “This is private. Please stop trying to look.”

  73. Jennifleurs*

    I know we always say on here how much a toxic job can screw you over, but I’m still always surprised. I’m nearly a year out of ToxicOldJob, and yet my reaction to a confusing bit of communication from my freelance side-gig was still the same panic-find-who-to-blame response from back then. Trying to calm down and remember that the situation is completely different, everything is ok, it’s literally not my fault.

    1. Ann, you perfect sunflower*

      It took me more than 3 years and I’m still not completely over it yet. Give yourself grace, patience, self-care, and time.

      1. margery*

        It takes a long long time to get over something like that – I know – it happened to me. I also have a couple of friends who took a long time to get anywhere near ‘normal’. Be kind and patient to yourself.

  74. Llellayena*

    A question for a friend about disability accommodations:

    A friend works a big box retail job and has anxiety and a stutter. His bosses know and his accommodation is to allow him to walk away from a situation of he gets too flustered. He also tends to get loud and talk faster when he’s nervous or asking someone to do something. Because of this, when he has politely (though at outdoor volume) asked customers not to do something (“Please don’t push the carts into the cars”) the customers have complained to management that he is rude and he has been suspended. He’s working on not trying to prevent things like that and just tell a manager and he’s practicing standard responses until he’s comfortable enough to talk calmly and reduce the stutter, but I’m wondering where disability accommodation should come into play. If a customer complains about something that is a direct result of his disability (anxiety over customers cars getting damaged by carts pushed by other customers) should he still be suspended for “being rude to a customer”? Is there any non-insulting way to inform customers to be more patient because of an accommodation (I was thinking some kind of added tag to the nametag, like the “I am deaf” tag)? Thanks all!

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think he should be suspended. Unfortunately, I also don’t think he should be working with the public until he gets more comfortable, because they have no way to know whether he has a disability or is just being rude.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        I was wondering this same thing– can the employer argue that him being polite is an essential job function, and one that can’t be accommodated? I don’t know how these rules work. (Personally, I think it’s nonsense that we expect customer service people to bend over backwards for the often-awful public, but that’s neither here nor there.)

        1. Llellayena*

          Perhaps, but he is polite: “Please don’t push the carts into the cars.” Just that he has a naturally loud voice that gets louder when he’s nervous, so it’s misinterpreted as being rude and yelling.

          1. NACSACJACK*

            Not HR here, but his disability does not extend to the volume of his voice. He needs to learn to manage his EQ Response. You all did, it’s just not taught as well to people with disabilities because we dont have the early childhood social networks you all did. When you were young, you were included in little groups that taught you social cues and behaviors. Think upon the people who didnt even get into the groups, who werent allowed to have that interaction and were teased because of it, because they didnt have people to back them up and stare down the other guy(s). We are so busy managing the fact that we are alienated from society that managing our EQ doesnt come into play until years later when we are thrust into society because we got a job. Think of it as a 4 or 6 year old coming into the workplace. How long did it take you to learn not to throw a fit?

    2. Ann, you perfect sunflower*

      I think your idea is a sound one – as others wrote here, it’s not always clear if someone is behaving outside of the norms of behavior because they require accommodation or because they are (in the example of shouting) just having a really off day and shouldn’t be interacting with customers. I think the majority of folks would understand a need for accommodation if they knew about it. If your friend was on board with something that could be added to his name tag, for example, then I know as a customer it would help me understand and know how to respond effectively.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Look, I think it’s very nice that you’re sticking up for your friend. But I don’t think this is an accommodation issue. He has an accommodation plan. He isn’t following it.

      The nametag idea is problematic for a couple of reasons:

      1) People who push shopping carts into cars aren’t going to read or respect any sort of ID tag like that. They are jerks, or they are careless and oblivious. People who would pay attention and try to be thoughtful and patient, don’t do crap like shove their shopping carts willy-nilly in the parking lot. Because they are thoughtful people.

      2) Honestly, it feels kind of hinky to make a disabled person wear a card around their neck, just to make sure everyone knows they aren’t capable of behaving appropriately.

      The deafness tag makes sense because it directly affects your ability to communicate with the employee. But “please be patient while I yell at you in the parking lot?” That’s a stretch.

      I think in a job where encountering the public is a routine task, not shouting at customers is a core competency. Using the word “please” does not make it polite to shout at customers (even if they are being jerks).

      It sounds like he is not disciplined when customers dent cars. He’s not responsible for that, and he’s not supposed to try to handle it himself.

      Since his manager has made it clear that walking away and letting someone else deal with it is a proper action, then that’s what he needs to do. From my perspective, it looks like he was not suspended for raising his voice. He was suspended for failing to follow the plan that was already worked out to accommodate him.

    4. Not A Manager*

      Maybe he should be doing something else, rather than monitoring the parking lot? Can he ask for an accommodation that he not be put in positions where he needs to take immediate action to control customers’ behavior?

      (I understand that such a situation could arise in any context, but something like “parking lot duty” or “Black Friday aisle monitor” seems to be more likely to lead to these sorts of situations.)

    5. Former Hotel Worker*

      Unfortunately I see this less as a disability/accommodation issue and more of a “managers/customers being jerks who expect an almost robotic level of emotional regulation from customer service workers” issue. Unless there’s some real aggression going on, I really don’t see how a complaint about an employee raising his voice in alarm over a potential accident about to happen could really be upheld. If he’s working on it, and management are aware, then any such complaints can simply be tackled with an apology from management and a vague reference to training being given (because, if he’s receiving any form of support to help him adjust to the role, then that’s training) and accept that it will get easier with time. If the situation continues, then maybe he’ll have to switch to a non-customer-facing role, or find a job with managers who are more sympathetic to simple human nature. Manners are one thing, but to expect somebody to keep their voice completely void of whatever they are feeling is a whole other level of emotional labour that I doubt many people are capable of. (Sorry, but this ticks me off on a personal level – end rant.)

  75. RabbitRabbit*

    We have a weekly super-basic Llama Research Starter Class, with half an introduction to ethics and regulations around breeding and raising llamas, and the other half how to deal with the applications to go ahead and do this at our particular Institute. If you’re going to be dealing with this here, you have to go to this two-hour class. You may not be interested in llama research as a career, but if your study path requires you to do it once, then you have to suck it up and do this class.

    Also, the instructors enforce an attendance rule – you have to be on time. It’s only two hours so if you come a half hour late you miss a ton. Normally I think they close the auto-locking door at 15 minutes after start time.

    A colleague and I just talked to a graduate student who apparently has never been taught how to knock. She entered our office and claimed that she came only 5 minutes after the class started, and knocked, and no one let her in. At that point, it was nearly 20 minutes after the start. So apparently she wanted us to believe that she sat there knocking for 15 minutes and people just ignored it (it’s only a moderate-sized conference room, with a glass window in the door), or that she is unaware of how to knock. Or, more likely, she just arrived a minute or two prior, gave a little tap, then wandered over and went ‘oh but I totally got here really close to the start time.’

    So sorry. Try again next week.

  76. No (Complaint) Free Lunch*

    TL;DR Someone made passive aggressive signs for our tables in the break room to let people know if we don’t want to chat during our lunches, and its making people uncomfortable. I’m not sure we need them and it seems like a round about way to solve the real problem.

    I work at the corporate headquarters of a company, there are about 100 people in my building. My department is one of the smallest, 4 people total, but a lot of the work we do is very visible. My co-worker is the most visible and recognizable to other departments, so often times people contact him if they have general questions about the department as he comes off as the most approachable (not that the rest of us aren’t approachable! I promise we are very friendly, we just don’t get out of our cubes much and the nature of his job requires that he must physically walk around to other departments)

    A few people have taken his approachability as “complain to me about the things my department is doing that you don’t like” and started doing this during his lunch. He sits in the communal break room for his lunch and a group people will regularly complain about things they don’t like that we do. For example, as a result of our work and efforts, our company is getting more business and therefore giving this group of people more work to do (I’m sorry you actually have to do your job?) We’ve told our boss about it and she’s talked to their managers, but the solution seems to be that instead of talking to the offenders, the one manager made passive aggressive signs for the break room. The signs are double-sided, one side reads “I’m on my break, I need me time. I don’t want to chat right now”. The other sign says “I’m on my break, we can chat but not about work stuff”. The idea is that you can flip the sign to whatever side you want others to see. This seems like a round about way of fixing the issue, the manager just should have talked to her employees, right? The signs seems kind of rude and I don’t mind if people talk to me during my lunch, even if it is about work stuff. Plus, I don’t think the complainers in question would realize this sign is meant for them, and my co-worker is way too nice to say anything to them directly.

    1. Mediamaven*

      That sounds ridiculous. If someone doesn’t want to talk at all they should eat at their desk or in their car or something. And if they don’t want to talk work just say it. Be an adult.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, the manager should’ve spoken to the employees, but not before your friend did. And it’s a good example of why, as much as it may feel like death, saying something and keeping control is best, lest someone else’s solution be complete nonsense. I would be weirded out if my manager told me not to bother Brach during his lunch when Brach had shown zero concern. I’d be worried about him, actually.

        The good news is you can drop and detach from this. This is Brach’s to deal with and he’s chosen his way. The manager or anyone coddling him by intervening just paints him as helpless.

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Has your hassled coworker asked people to stop, as in, hey, I’m eating lunch and need a break from work talk? That would seem like the most reasonable approach to me. If coworker has done this and it didn’t work, then I do think the sign-making manager should be direct with their employees and the signs are silly either way.

    3. WellRed*

      The employee should use his words to say he’s on break. The flippy sign the company has come up with is so childish.

      1. LCL*

        Maybe the intent wasn’t childish. At one of our local cafes that is always crowded, they have little stand up signs that say something like ‘I have room at this table and you are welcome to sit here.’ I just assumed it was a German thing.

        Here at work, our culture is, you don’t talk shop with anyone on their break unless something is burning down.

    4. RandomU...*

      But your “way too nice” coworker is ok with his complaint going to the other’s boss? I don’t understand that.

      Surely the nice thing to do is to say in a friendly manner “Jane, yeah, I can see where that might be a problem. Say, do you mind if I set up some time for us to talk later? I’m trying to finish my lunch and catch up on the baseball scores from yesterday. I want to make sure that we have time to discuss the issue in depth”

      By talking to the Jane’s of the world he’s letting them know he doesn’t like something and most people would rather know that than not. And it’s giving them the opportunity to correct themselves before their boss does.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      If your co-worker is incapable of saying, “Wow, it sounds like you should talk to your manager about your workload. How about that Sportsmatch this weekend?” then passive-aggressive, awkward signage is the natural result.

      Because making a complaint up the chain of command to get another department in trouble with their manager, just to avoid *changing the subject yourself*?

      That is pretty high up on the passive-aggressive, awkward chart to start with.

  77. Seeking Second Childhood*

    New discoveries about the no-longer-new office space continue.
    Someone is back from a 4-month series of business trips (they’ve been here, but we hadn’t overlapped). I’d been warned of a loud laugh. I have to admit the laugh is nothing — it’s the amazing carrying quality of her voice that boggles me. She’s 4 cubicles away, I’m hard of hearing, and I’m able to follow her half of her conversations.
    Headphones here I come.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Could be worse. My cube neighbor screams JESUS!! or JESUS CHRIST!! at random. She also announces and makes fun of every name on the caller ID when the phone rings.

      I’m not allowed headphones. :(

  78. Ella Vader*

    So, question. I got a raise and a good bump in vacation/sick days about 8 months ago. However, I’m not happy where I am. How long should I wait before looking for another job?

    1. Fey*

      I don’t think it would matter how long you wait after your raise and bump in vacation/sick days to leave? Are you nervous about how it would be perceived by your current company or … something else?

      1. Ella Vader*

        I’m worried how it’ll be perceived. I’ve been here 12 years so not worried about job hoping. Mostly worried about how it’ll look to current employer.

        1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

          Um, to put it bluntly, who cares how it looks to current employer*
          *Unless you are in a situation where your current employer could tarnish your reputation within your industry.

          1. Ella Vader*

            I work as a paralegal, and the attorneys all know each other to some extent. I don’t want to worry about it ruining me reputation at some point that I got a raise/upped benefits and jumped ship too soon, if that makes sense?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not sure I understand…are you worried you’re going to look greedy or ungrateful for looking despite getting a pay raise and benefits increase? How long have you been in your job all together?

      A raise isn’t a reason to feel locked in for X amount of time, that’s money you earned by being a dedicated, good employee. You don’t owe them anything for it other than to continue to do good work until you find another position.

      If you’re worried about job hopping, most advice is to stay around for about 2 years to look like it’s not due to itchy feet but because you’ve ran your course at the job, it’s no longer challenging or fulfilling, etc.

    3. Overeducated*

      I got a raise two months ago and as I complained in my other comment, my boss is now aware that I have at least one application out elsewhere. There’s no time limit.

  79. Amber Rose*

    Yesterday was devastating. Just, the worst. I was so angry and scared and upset and depressed. That said, I could have got myself under control if people had stopped being so nice to me. Asking if I’m OK in a gentle voice just makes me want to cry. Which is what happened despite my best efforts, and then I got sent home to recover. Which was kind of my boss but I was and am so embarrassed about it all.

    I had a good long ugly cry at my cat and I’m more collected today but I’m scared someone will be nice to me again. I feel like that makes me sound awful. :/

    Also banks can all go to hell. If I were to violate the terms of our written agreement the full force of the law would be on my head in three seconds, but when THEY do it… the full force of the law still ends on my head.

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      I’m absolutely the same way– I can truck along just fine, bottling everything up like a fine sparkling wine, until someone asks if I’m okay, or gives me a hug, or offers anything comforting. I haven’t even told anyone at my office that my mom has cancer because I don’t want pity or kindness; I want to be left alone. When people try to be kind to me, I either end up feeling exhausted because now I have to have a conversation with them, and there’s always some obligation of social politeness, or I end up just falling apart. I don’t like either option.

      I will not indulge in those same behaviors that drive both of us to breakdowns, so instead, I will say that I would like to know your cat’s name, and that I concur about the banks.

      1. Amber Rose*

        My cat’s name is Nefarian (Neff for short, my husband named him after a WoW boss apparently). He is black, extremely affectionate, and vibrates at the perfect frequency to calm me down.

        1. L. S. Cooper*

          That’s an excellent name, and a delightful use of WoW nerdery! I approve of your husband’s choice of cat names, and I’m glad he’s more affectionate than his namesake.

          1. valentine*

            Can you head your colleagues off with a kind email asking they not mention if you look upset (or whatever they’re responding to)? Tell them you need to push through it/walk it off on your own.

  80. breadrolls*

    After a depressing 1L, I’m going to be taking a possibly/probably permenent leave of absence from Westeros Law School. I was originally planning to drop out, but have opted instead to take an indefinite medical leave to make sure I’m not only making this choice because my mental health care routines fell apart when school started. If I did return to law school, it wouldn’t be for at least another 2 (and probably 3 or 4) years.

    I’m planning to return to my completely unrelated pre-law school career path, and I’m wondering if anyone has any advice about how to address this in interviews/my cover letter. Should I leave law school off my resume and just address the apparent gap its absence creates in a sentence in my cover letter? Will not naming the school raise a red flag, or would naming Westeros (a famous school) look like I’m trying to ~brag~ about getting into a program I didn’t complete? Does anyone have scripts for adressing the whole “on leave to keep my options open, but probably not going back, and thus sincerely interested in growing professionally in this field” thing?

    Any advice is appreciated, especially from other people who’ve left graduate/professional programs. (Except advice about why I should stick it out because it gets better after 1L/practice is nothing like law school. I know. I’m not taking a leave over 1L curriculum.)

    Thanks :)

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Nothing wrong with taking a leave of absence for personal/medical reasons. It happens all the time. I would include the time at law school in the resume and mention the leave in a very brief sentence in the cover letter.

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      In interviews I would simply say what you said here – that your year at law school demonstrated that you didn’t want to continue in that career path and while you can’t rule out ever returning, you don’t plan to continue in that field. ALso, if you hated 1L (you don’t say, but I sure did) you probably will hate 2 and 3L. No shame in realizing it’s not for you and moving on. I sure wish I had, and am planning on changing careers drastically in the near future after 10 years being a lawyer.

    3. CatCat*

      I stayed in law school (and I like being a lawyer), but had a few classmates who dropped out after 1L and were much happier for it. It was rougher for those who hated law school and then hated being lawyers though. People in that camp that I know of from my class eventually moved on to other things and are now FINE, but would have saved themselves a lot of struggle if they dropped out sooner.

      You asked, “Does anyone have scripts for adressing the whole “on leave to keep my options open, but probably not going back, and thus sincerely interested in growing professionally in this field” thing?”

      Well, if you’re looking for a job where the employer is looking for a permanent hire, I would not mention being on leave to keep your options open (I mean, aren’t we all always keeping our options open one way or another in life anyway?). I’d just keep it as simple as possible. “After my first year, I decided law school was not for me and my talents and interests are still with [old career path].” Then carry on with your fit for for the job. I would put the very briefly school on the resume since it explains what you were up to in that year.

    4. automaticdoor*

      Oh my god, I don’t have any advice for you except GET OUT while you only have a year of expenses under your belt and not three. I made shit grades in law school at a school like Westeros because I was super, super depressed and anxious (I have bipolar disorder and anxiety issues), and I wish I had exited before three years of debt which did NOT lead to a job in the legal field for me. I haven’t even been able to pass the bar because I’m so leftover-trauma-ed from school… seven years later.

    5. Not A Manager*

      I left a prestigious graduate program after one year. I took an allowed leave of absence, and after a year I notified the school that I was withdrawing.

      I put that program and dates on my resume. The first year I put “leave of absence” when I was applying to temp jobs, and after that I put “withdrew in good standing.” I don’t think either one harmed me with employers.

      If I were you, I would put “leave of absence” with no explanation. “Medical leave” opens you up to other employment discrimination. If you’re asked, you can tailor your response depending on the employer. “I’m on indefinite leave, and I might choose to return in a few years,” or “while it’s technically a leave of absence, I have no plans to return. I’ve found that I’d much prefer to work in This Field.”

      1. Cats and dogs*

        For what it’s worth I agree with the CatCat about NOT saying the leave is temporary to potential employers because it sounds like you have a foot out the door already and since you are talking 3-4 years it would only hurt you. No one interviews for a job saying I might leave in 3-4 years. That’s far enough away that it is irrelevant. I also agree to just put it in a line and say you withdrew to pursue your old career path. Anyone who knows a lawyer (everyone?) knows Law school is not for everyone.

  81. Jean (just Jean)*

    Calling all caregivers: any advice on staying productive when distracted or exhausted?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do your best. You’re being overworked and it’s emotional work, you’re not always going to be productive. You are only human. Seriously. Take care of yourself.

    2. Introvert girl*

      A walk outside during your break, give 100% instead of 200% at work, start listening to something relaxing on your headphone during working hours, buy soup instead of making it yourself (it’s cheap and you can use that time and energy to relax). I also starter eating two pieces of fruit a day: a banana in my morning shake and an apple in the afternoon.

    3. Need a better name, CPA*

      Lists!

      Just writing down (1) what you really have to do ASAP, (2) what you need to do, but not as urgently, (3) what you want to do, (4) what you ought to do one of these days, etc. helps to clarify your priorities. You’re also less likely to suddenly remember something ten minutes after it was due. Cross things off and add others as needed.

      Breaking the huge tasks down into pieces helps, too. Caregivers need to take advantage of five or ten minute blocks of time, so the little stuff doesn’t take over time that could be spent on something bigger. So you don’t have the energy to clean the whole apartment; could you spend ten minutes shredding or dusting or emptying paper baskets?

  82. Fey*

    Warning: Very Long

    I had an on-site interview today (follow-up from last week’s phone interview) that’s left a bitter taste in my mouth. This all happened with the VP of Ops, who would be the person this role reports to. Is this red bunting? (Full credit to Batgirl for coming up with that brilliant phrase!)

    1. Asked why I didn’t have a laptop for the presentation. My laptop is bulky and never leaves my house. Also, I’d asked her beforehand if using my iPad was okay. She said yes. This was before we even started and the presentation proceeded to work just fine on my iPad btw.

    2. One line of the instructions to the questionnaire read: “Questions are in listed order of increasing difficulty. We do not expect applicants to necessarily answer all questions; the final few questions are difficult. Please feel free to submit your application even if you have not answered all questions.” I left the last question blank because I did not understand the question. She was aghast by my audacity to “not even try”. She said she doesn’t want me running to her every time I had a problem.

    3. She did not like my approach to a real-life project for the office (which I have done many times at previous jobs). The project would require making a lot of expensive purchases and my approach was to “first discuss my hypothetical list of purchases we might need with you (being my manager), Finance (for budget approval) and the CEO”. Said that if I felt something was right to just do it. Never once considered that at the point of doing this homework, I didn’t know about her management style. (I was planning to ask her during the on-site.) Or that other places I have worked at might not be as hands-off as she is and that is why I’m coming in with this conservative approach.

    4. When I asked her about the culture, she banged on about transparency and how everyone knows everything (that isn’t P&C) and how there are no secrets. There’s something about the way she said it that didn’t sit well with me. It felt like … man, I don’t know how to describe it. Someone’s got to know what I mean. Something not good.

    5. Is a serious believer in Radical Candour – as is the CEO, apparently – and everyone is encouraged to speak up in a conflict. She recalled with pride how she called an employee out at stand-up yesterday for something they said that she didn’t agree with. I’m all for giving and receiving honest, helpful feedback, but I like the traditional way of praising in public and criticising in private. Is that old-fashioned? Is it wrong to still want to practice this in 2019? Am I mad that calling someone out in front of everyone else makes me uncomfortable, and thinking it’d be worse to be on the receiving end of it?

    6. When I asked about the working hours, she said everyone comes in by 10am and leaves whenever. She said that no one will question you on your arrival time and even if you need to leave early, nobody cares, as long as you do your work. She said that she regularly works till 12am herself – quickly adding that no one else does it and I certainly wouldn’t need to – but she likes the quiet.

    7. Informed me how she rejected a very competent candidate (for another role) on the phone recently because he was apparently too hung up on his current company’s practices and kept saying “this is how my company would do things”. I don’t know if that guy said that in a matter-of-fact way, like “fyi, this is how we would do X here”, or he was essentially proclaiming he was not open to change. But that was how VPO chose to take it and she proceeded to take his name off of the list.

    8. At this point I decided to ask her point-blank, “So in the spirit of radical candour, do you think that *I* will be open to change? Cuz as you can see I’m also coming in with ways of doing things that won’t fly here.” Her reply? “I have to say I don’t know, until I see how you work.”

    I thought it was a cop out. If she could reject that guy on the phone because he verbally said some things, there I was physically demonstrating methods I’d use that she disagrees with – and she couldnt tell me if she thought I could adapt? FWIW, I definitely can learn to adapt. But to expect everyone to come in at the interview stage already knowing her management style, without letting them get away with some bias they might have from working elsewhere … I don’t think it’s possible?

    9. At the end when she walked me to the lift, she expressed surprise that none of the startups I’ve worked at have had a hands-off style of management as she thinks most startups do. I reminded her that I’ve worked in precisely one startup; the others (that are relevant to this job) were not startups. And the one startup I worked at had a militant, micromanager of a COO who would comment on a Google Sheet as I was working on it (much like a question posed on AAM recently). I had to run EVERYTHING past her. I certainly couldn’t purchase anything without getting the item and budget approved by her first. Not VPO’s idea of a startup, for sure.

    So at this point I feel deflated. Sad that a job I really was hoping would work out…is a job that I know will stress me the hell out. But I also wonder, if I find her to be a b*tch, how much of it is her really being a b*tch, and how much of it is just me not having a thick enough skin to withstand potentially getting called out in front of everybody and being met with exasperation if I had a question I needed her input on? But at the same time, do I really want to put myself through all of this? She sounds like she’d be Militant Micromanager COO 2.0.

    Some thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.

        1. irene adler*

          Too much in general. I don’t think you (or any one she hires) will ever do things ‘right’, in her eyes. So she’ll be commenting on or questioning everything you do. Some people are able to just let this roll off their back. But over time, this will wear you down. You’ll hesitate (“Am I doing this right?”) every time you carry out a task.

          1. Fey*

            Yeah, I definitely see myself stammering and doubting myself if I worked with her. Ugh.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Interviews are two way streets of information-gathering, and all the information gathered here is that you would absolutely not like working with this person. Whether it’s because she’s a b– or because you have thin skin doesn’t matter, the bottom line is that this would not be a good fit for you. Consider this data well-collected and find a position that will actually work well for you!

    3. Murphy*

      At the very least it sounds like you and this person are not at all compatible. If you wouldn’t be reporting directly to her, I think you could ignore some of it, but under the circumstances, I don’t think you should work for her.

      1. Fey*

        Yeah, we’d be working too closely and it would be impossible to ignore her behaviour.

    4. LCL*

      Allow me to translate #4 for you. ‘…transparency…and everyone knows everything…’ means everybody has an opinion about everything, and you are expected to listen to all of those opinions, and anyone can AND WILL tell you that you are doing something wrong, even if they have nothing to do with the job you are doing.

      I had a manager that really believed in #4. It came from a good kind place, he believed his way was the most ethical way to do things. And he was a good person. The crew HATED him. This kind of environment ends up giving the bullies and complainers free rein to make everyone else miserable unless things are done their way.

      1. Fey*

        Ha! You got it! Btw, the person that she called out during the standup is in the software engineering team. I understand that as VP of Ops, she kinda has to be involved and in the know about all the goings-on in all the different teams. But what she told me she was disagreeing with that guy on, was his … approach (surprise!) to a project he was about to start. So it’s her way or the highway. Only her approach is right, no one else’s is. Even if it’s regarding a project in a department she’s no expert in.

        Transparency, innit. :)

    5. WellRed*

      “She was aghast by my audacity to “not even try”. She said she doesn’t want me running to her every time I had a problem.”

      Also translated as: I will set you up to fail every time.

      1. irene adler*

        And make sure you never forget each time that you failed.
        Nothing good here.

    6. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Most people show their good behavior in an interview.

      If this is her good behavior…you do not want to see her bad behavior. Run.

    7. Hope*

      Good lord. I would run screaming, and be very thankful that she definitely showed you what kind of (horrible) manager she would be. Radical candor is one thing, but she sounds aggressively ridiculous. It sounds like you’ll spend your entire time on the defensive dealing with unwarranted, not-well-thought-out critiques.

      1. Fey*

        I found myself being defensive one minute into our convo yesterday (the laptop thing). Can’t imagine that crap daily!

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t know what a red bunting is, but she sounds exhausting. I get the feeling that nothing you’d do in that job would ever be right and she’d always find something to criticize. I’ve had managers who expected you to just read their mind and know how they want you to approach something, but they were so inconsistent even an AI supercomputer couldn’t figure our their patterns.

      Unless there’s some huge draw to this company, I’d withdraw and keep looking.

      1. Fey*

        Red bunting is a string of red flags! Isn’t that clever?!

        Yeah, Militant Micromanager COO was like this. I lasted only six months working under her.

        I have no plans to continue interviewing, but I won’t withdraw yet. I want to see what she says, just for fun. I don’t think she liked me all that much either and am 99% sure I’ll get a rejection email next week. But if by some miracle I don’t, then I’ll withdraw.

        1. San Juan Worm*

          Thanks for the clarification! Trying to puzzle out what a “red bunting,” might be, I was trying to figure out how a sparrow-like bird would be the workplace equivalent of a “red herring,” the literary device. A string of red flags makes much more sense!

    9. Elizabeth West*

      All I could think when I read that about working hours is that she would expect you to work until 12 am. When bosses like this say “Oh, you don’t have to do what I do,” they expect you to do what they do.

      I’m sorry this turned out to be such a disappointment. :(

      1. Fey*

        Yeah. Or at least, they’ll make sure you know they stayed late to try and make you feel guilty. Not that that’ll work with me. I’d just think she was a loser for not having a life outside of work … or even just plans to Netflix! I’d still leave when my work was done. :D

        Thank you. I’m bummed, because it’s a cool company doing something cool. I stalked her on LinkedIn and expressed my interest and was sooo happy when she responded asking for my CV. But I’m glad she’s shown me this side of her so early on and not till after I joined.

    10. Lilysparrow*

      She has already demonstrated the most relevant piece of her management style:

      She’s going to tell you to do things your own way, and that it doesn’t matter if you do X, as long as you produce Y. Then she will criticize you for not doing X. And not just criticize, but make it into some kind of imaginary character flaw, like “not trying” or “not being adaptable” or “not having a thick skin.” (It’s gotten into your head already, or you wouldn’t be thinking that way after this one bizarre conversation.)

      That’s not radical candor or transparency. That’s crazymaking. It’s not about you not being able to handle it. It’s about her setting you up to fail.

      Run.

      1. Fey*

        Ugh, you’re so right. She’s already got to me!

        She’d gaslight me all the time. And she’d ask me to form my own opinion and make my own decision then tell me my decision is incorrect. Definitely crazymaking!

        1. Autumnheart*

          It sounds like her entire personality and the company culture is centered around playing “gotcha” with all the employees. Set traps for them and wait for them to fall in! Plus, she doesn’t believe in making use of employees’ previous experience, or in other companies’ best practices?

          This VP sounds like a nightmare, and this company sounds like it’s headed nose-first into the ground. Run like Usain Bolt!

          1. Fey*

            “Plus, she doesn’t believe in making use of employees’ previous experience, or in other companies’ best practices?”

            You made a really good point there. Oh! I wish I’d thought of it so I could have asked her!

            Being the first ever Operations person (and a first-time VP, according to her LinkedIn) to come onboard, this is her chance to curate the company to exactly her way and her way only. Any other ideas apart from hers will be rejected!

            I’m definitely running.

    11. Samwise*

      I’m kind of surprised at the other comments so far. Maybe there was something about the tone? But none of this seems too bad to me. Like the laptop— was she mean and shamy about it, or just asking? The hours: entirely possible she’s telling you the truth — my grand boss used to have an office in our dept and she worked super late and genuinely did not expect us there and would send us home. She didn’t like your approach to the purchases question— that’s why she asked it? She prefers a different approach and wants someone who takes that approach, reasonable info for her to gather. And so on.
      It may be that you don’t see that the two of you will be on the same page and would clash, so that’s good info for you. But that hardly makes her a beyotch.

      1. Not A Manager*

        I think the context of a lot of these comments by the interviewer make them seem like Gotcha! questions. OP had already specifically asked if it was okay to make the presentation on the iPad, and *this same lady* had said yes. So why the pearl clutching about the laptop? Most of the other issues are similar.

      2. Fey*

        Yeah, it was her tone. When she saw my iPad, she said, “You don’t have a laptop?”

        Me: (thinking she meant ‘in the present moment’) Uh, no.
        Her: (sounding incredulous) You mean you don’t own a laptop at all?
        Me: Oh! I do. It’s big and bulky so I don’t take it out of the house. I just take my iPad with me.

        And it’s okay to not like my approach and to prefer I use hers to mine. But she could have said, “Okay, but fyi, my management style is very hands-off. How would you approach the project now that you know this about me?”

        … Or something? I don’t need to be handled with kid gloves, just mutual respect as a fellow adult. She was berating me like I was a little kid and she was my teacher. She was expecting that I knew about her hands-off style before I even met her. How was I to know?

      3. Lilysparrow*

        Don’t forget part where the application specifically said there was no need to answer all the questions. OP left one blank, and VP scolded her for “not trying.”

        That is not somebody you want to report to, because you will never know if their instructions are the real instructions, or in secret code.

        Effective managers do not give direction in code or create guessing games or trick questions for their employees.

    12. Batgirl*

      I don’t know that there are enough red flags for bunting (thanks!) but there are definitely no green ones here.
      1) This one’s kind of an amber alert: poor memory, not tech savvy, jumping to an odd conclusion.
      2) Genuine red flag. You can’t believe anything she says from this contradiction onwards. Besides which she jumped to (another) negative, and highly personal wrong conclusion.
      3) This one’s another amber. If she really doesn’t share your work style then she simply should choose someone else. Scolding you in the interview is a bit of a sign of things to come. Not to mention: how comfortable would you feel with non approved usage of the company credit card after #2?
      4) Captain Awkward calls this ‘the crimson flag of unsolicited reassurances’. I think you’d get more blunt aggressiveness but never really know what was happening over the noise.
      5) Nope, your instincts are golden here. Red flag.
      6) Haha. Yep. ‘People can leave for the day whenever they want but I make a point of telling people in interviews that I literally burn the midnight oil!’ See #2.
      7) That ‘my company would’ trait can either be a way to share best practice or be legitimately annoying but what does that have to do with you? Sounds like she’s stressing what your attitude should be instead of discovering what it is. Amber flag.
      8) ‘I love radical candour, even in interviews, but not right now?’ See #2. Amber flag.
      9) ‘Nice to meet you even though your entire job history sounds like a disaster!’ Honestly boss-lady, manners cost nothing. Amber flag.

      Soo…not enough red flags for bunting, but definitely enough for a decent stretch of dangerous coastline. If she’d said anything encouraging or green-flaggy then you could have investigated more within your network or glass door. But if you’re reporting directly to her and walking away twitching?
      Nah, I wouldn’t bother.

      1. Fey*

        “not enough red flags for bunting, but definitely enough for a decent stretch of dangerous coastline”. I love that! You have a way with words, you know that!

        2. This one really unnerved me. That bit about it being okay to leave a question blank if I didn’t know the answer was just a trick then?! You know, she actually asked me, “So if you don’t know the answer to something, what will you do?” Me: “If I’ve tried my hardest to source for a solution and I still can’t get it, I’ll go to you?” Oooohhh, she.did.not.like.that! I knew it was the wrong answer but I didn’t want to back down from my original move (leave it blank and ask her for clarification during the interview) so fast. I’m not so easily swayed like that. That was when she said she doesn’t want me running to her every time I have a problem. If I can’t ask my manager for help, who the f- else can I ask?

        3. Yeah, just reject me if you don’t like me. Why go through all this trouble of scolding me because she didn’t like my style?

        4. I googled that, read the post, and I’m saying mm-hmm. It was like she was trying sooo hard to convince me that transparency is this Novel Thing they’ve discovered and are the only ones doing it properly and “omg, look how cool we are”. Which just makes me think ‘there is something wrong here’.

        She told me during the phone interview as well as during the on-site, that supposedly many of the employees just looove how transparent the company is, that they proclaim “this is the most transparent company they’ve ever worked for”. So transparent they are that when the company had $X,000 left in the bank and couldn’t pay everyone for at least a month, “nobody left”. Umm, am I supposed to be impressed? In the words of Ms. Dynamite, it takes more to amuse a girl like me!

        7. She just wants everyone she hires to fit into her mould. Heaven forbid people dare share best practices or reference a current or former company. “If you wanna work here, forget all of your previous experience!”

        8. EXACTLY 100% THIS. She loves giving feedback, right? So I willingly put myself in a vulnerable position and ASKED for her honest feedback – but no, she won’t give it to me. Why? Is she only happy if she gets to give feedback – I mean, “call someone out” – without them expecting it? Preferably during standup in front of the entire company?

        9. Any startup that dares call itself a startup but doesn’t do what THIS startup is doing is simply not a startup. One way. HER way.

        Definitely twitching. Definitely not going to bother. Thank you for your advice!

        1. Batgirl*

          ” when the company had $X,000 left in the bank and couldn’t pay everyone for at least a month”
          OMFG.
          Dating and job hunting, man. That’s when you meet freaks.

  83. robineer*

    Hi all! I’m at the point where I’m pretty close to getting a job offer at an university I’ve wanted to work since I was young. I know not to assume I have the offer until it’s official, so I’m crossing my fingers!

    If I do get the offer, how should I negotiate salary? I only have about 2 1/2 years of job experience, and 1 year of experience for a particular job function for the position.

    I’ve been told I’m a quick learner and a hard worker, so I know I can do the job well if I focus. However, I feel these traits are more subjective, and not used during negotiation.

    Any tips?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think Alison’s standard advice is to just say “How about ______?” and then stay silent and see how they react, instead of trying to make some big justification of why you deserve that salary. She has a really good podcast episode about it that was spring of last year, I think.

      2. MissBliss*

        Yeah, that’s what I recommend. But also know that they might have formulas to determine what your salary will be. I tried to negotiate with my college job and was unable to due to the HR formula of experience+education+whatever else they’re determining. Good luck!

        1. Friyay*

          If it’s a public university, salaries are probably posted online somewhere – maybe you could get some ideas based on other people in the office or functional area so you have a range to work with?

          1. robineer*

            Yes, they did post it on their job opening. The salary range is 40k – 60k, but in parenthesis they have “department hiring range is 40k – 45k”. I was going to try to ask for 50k or more PTO. Do you think that’s reasonable?

            1. Hope*

              If they’ve got a department range, you’re going to be super, super lucky to get the high end of that range–asking for 45k is going to be a big ask unless you’ve got tons of experience. Asking for 50k is going to make you seem wildly out of touch. PTO might be more negotiable, but sometimes that’s determined entirely by a university’s board of trustees/regents. With your amount of experience, you’re going to be lucky to anything over the bare minimum (I mean, it’s worth asking, but manage your expectations). The economy might be booming, but for a lot of universities, that actually means they have lower enrollment-aka less money-because people are taking jobs instead of going to school in between jobs.
              Public universities are often hamstrung by govt. bureaucracy when it comes to staff positions that aren’t director or VP level.

              2. Samwise*

                Completely agree. 2-1/2 years experience is close to entry level. You can find out about PTO and sick leave on the university website. Depending on the state, salaries for comparable positions may or may not be available. If you cannot find them online, try calling the secretary or admin for the faculty senate, or call the reference librarian at the u — they will know how to find it and will probably enjoy figuring it out ! In lieu of pay and PTO, you might ask for professional development support, materials and gear needed for your job, and so on. Ask around to see what flies at that university and in that dept or academic unit.

                1. robineer*

                  This is great advice, thank you! I want to stay at the university for a long time, and hopefully get to a senior position with more experience.

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              If it’s a state university, they’re likely to have a lot less wiggle room on things like hiring range and PTO (assuming you’re staff and not faculty).

  84. Appreciateallyourhelp*

    So one of my 2018 goals in my review was to start training to be backup for the sole IT person in our office. However, because of various changes/people leaving, etc., that never happened. My manager and I reset the goal for 2019 (our performance reviews are in January of each year). She and our IT admin finally were able to make time, and they would like to start training me in June.

    However, I decided to try and go back to college for a degree in an unrelated field to both my current work and IT work. I supposed I shouldn’t have made IT training a goal this year knowing I was applying, but I didn’t want to get behind AGAIN if I didn’t get accepted and needed to continue working here for another year. But I did get accepted, and I’ll be going full-time starting late August. My plan was to give a month’s notice mid/end of July, but…now I just don’t know. I’m afraid giving notice now would mean they’d push me out before I’m ready to leave. But I also don’t want to waste our poor IT admin’s time training me when he’s so busy. Also, I feel it wouldn’t look good when I do give my notice as it would be obvious I knew about this months in advance and yet let him give me this useless training.

    What do you all think?

    1. Fed*

      Can you find a valid reason to push the training to Agust? Then you will be gone and no effort wasted.

  85. Dame Judi Brunch*

    Just wanted to say thank you for the advice in last week’s open thread! I was the one debating if I should speak with my coworker about negativity, which was residual from old toxic job.
    I ended up talking to my coworker (on an ice cream break) and it went great. I made it more about me, and there were no hard feelings. Best of all, she told me she wanted to try and get out of the mindset we were in at toxic job.

    1. Kathenus*

      That’s a great update! Congrats on having that conversation, sounds like you and coworker are on your way to a happier work environment.

  86. L. S. Cooper*

    Good news: My full-stack web development course is over on Saturday! It’s been taking up 10 hours of my time on top of working full time (and my mom having cancer, and some other nonsense, oy vey), so I will be MUCH relieved to get that time back.

    Bad news: Oh geeze, that means I really need to dive into job hunting. It is SO discouraging, seeing that everyone wants 3-5 years of experience.

    Good news: A family friend works as a hiring/HR person, and she’s helping me out with my resume– I’m reasonably confident that I have enough of a background that I can sell it, I’m just not selling myself properly.

    Even better news: She knows people at the company I think I have the best shot at working for! Hopefully, once I get in touch with people there, the family friend can put in a good word.

    I’m scared and stressed but very hopeful!

    1. Timber*

      You got this! That’s fantastic that you are getting another eye on your resume to help polish it. And if you aren’t already, start attending local code & tech meetups for exposure/networking — it can help in breaking into that first developer role. Check out Meetup and Eventbrite for events in your area. Congrats on the next chapter! And so glad you can have that time back to spend with your mom.

  87. anony-Nora*

    Still searching for a better job, as my current one is toxic with low pay and terrible insurance, and in a dying industry besides. Had some interviews that seemed to go well but nothing’s panned out yet, just feel like I’m wasting my vacation days for nothing.

    Been here ten years, a quarter of my life wasted on a company that truly does not deserve me. I have a lot to offer, but this company is so poorly managed I’m boxed into duties I really don’t enjoy just because the coworkers who used to do them were sloppy and I actually pay attention to what I’m doing. It’s easier to give me extra work than to make other people do their jobs properly.

    1. Mary Connell*

      Hope things work out for you. They’re fortunate to have you even if they don’t deserve you.

  88. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Some weeks ago three people entered my company. So far, one was caught interviewing by my team leader (who told our boss) and didn’t bother to come to work today, other gave his notice, and the remaining one is quietly working here. Meanwhile people joke that the person in charge of all three of them is “scary” and drove them away, the rest of us just shrug.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Joke about it–the first one, the porridge was too cold, the second one was too hot, but Circe thinks it’s just right.

  89. Dr. Doll*

    Job candidates, let me apologize on behalf of every hiring manager who on their end is experiencing an incredibly slow bureaucracy that loses paperwork, gives wrong information, requires microscopic procedures, and will not allow me to communicate anything actually directly.

    I agree that it is seriously frustrating to apply for a job in December and finally get an offer in MAY, for a salary many thousands of dollars less than the job description indicated was the range. I don’t blame you a bit for turning that crap down flat and thanking your lucky stars that you dodged the bullet that was this [dis]organization.

    Back to Step Zero, this time understanding what I’m up against.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ugh, that all stinks, but the worst part is the direct communication bit! Most of us would be fine if we got some kind of indication that this will be resolved and that you understand our frustration.

  90. Dee Dee*

    So, I have a direct report. He’s been here longer than I have, but I was promoted above him. He’s very competent.

    But, I think somebody told him at some point that the way to get into a leadership position is to act like you’re a leader already. So while I am comfortable that he is mentoring some of the junior folks on my team, I’ve just learned that he’s basically holding 1:1s with one of them. He’s now asked if he can pull another (senior) member of the team aside to give them feedback on their work.

    This guy’s been on a bit of thin ice in the past due to some interpersonal skill issues—he seems to be the sort to kind of railroad his way into and through things, as well as being an unrepentant self-promoter.

    I’m a pretty new manager, but I’m not sure how to handle this. His work is good–but the interpersonal stuff, I find hard to manage. Any advice?

    1. LCL*

      He may have been on thin ice, but people who can railroad their way into and through things and being a self promoter usually end up wherever they want to go. If you don’t want him to do something, tell him. Don’t ask him. Be very direct. He can handle being told no.

      1. valentine*

        If the thin ice was only in your opinion and no one has said those words to him, you might mention that as well.

    2. CM*

      On a healthy, communicative team, people give each other feedback about stuff all the time, and it’s not a special event and also not hierarchical. It sounds like this guy is turning it into a special hierarchical event, which probably makes people feel weird. So maybe that’s a way to approach it with him.

      Act like you think it’s an accident and he doesn’t realize that, when he approaches people this way, he’s putting himself in a one-up position instead of acting like a colleague, and then maybe give some positive examples of how to share feedback with peers in a healthy, egalitarian way. Also act like you assume he actively wants feedback from his peers too, and ask stuff like, “How do you prefer that they approach YOU when they have feedback on your work?”

      If it makes sense and you have good communication on your team, you could also try having a group discussion about how people like to share feedback and what kinds of things they do and don’t want feedback on while they’re working — not with the goal of catching him out, exactly, but with the goal of building better cultural norms on your team about what it means when a coworker shares their feedback with you and which approaches to feedback are welcome or not.

  91. L. S. Cooper*

    Oh, and do you think it’d be appropriate to wear a nice blouse, a pencil skirt, and a blazer for an interview for web development positions in metropolitan areas of Colorado? My instincts say it’s plenty dressed up, compared to what people normally wear at these companies, but all the advice online seems to be along the lines of SUITS ONLY.

    1. Just Elle*

      That sounds perfect to me, and I am in a metropolitan/tech field. If anything, it might be overkill for some web development companies I’ve seen.

      Is this some crazy Colorado thing? Who is saying suits only? A blazer and a skirt is definitely business appropriate, unless you’re in some weird time warp where people still expect extremely formal business professional dress to interviews?

      Fair warning about the pencil skirt though – make sure it reads ‘professional and put together’ not ‘sexy or fun or flirty or tight’. And make sure the heels aren’t too flashy or tall – aim for them to look like a natural part of the outfit, not a stand out.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        I definitely was thinking to wear a pair of heels I own that, while cute, would be just as appropriate on my 21-year-old feet as on the feet of a 70-year-old woman on her way to church.

        I think Colorado is just an exception to the normal interviewing outfits, especially in such a casual field; I know I’ve seen threads on here about how it is VITAL to wear a suit and anyone who recommends otherwise is giving TERRIBLE advice, which made me a bit paranoid that my clothing choices had contributed to missing out on a job I really wanted last fall. (Nothing inappropriate, mind you. I wore a burgundy dress with a button-down underneath, neat booties, and plain black cotton leggings (because it was snowing and far too cold for tights)).

        Obviously, everyone gives their advice with the caveat of “Oh, well, keep an eye on industry norms and use your judgement”, but I doubt that all the egregiously dressed people that get talked about didn’t think they were dressed in a perfectly reasonable way, so I was a bit worried I was completely out of line.

        I’m ordering a pair of black jeans, as well, to add to my slightly-dressed-up roster of clothes, because I am a little worried about how the pencil skirt looks on me. It’s a very appropriate length, but it is a bit tight, on account of how I’m shaped. I’ll probably end up texting pictures of potential interview outfits to my mom for her to check!

        1. Take Me Home!*

          When I worked front desk at a pool, my manager said he asks all people that show up in a suit to leave because they clearly don’t understand a pool :P That said, I’m sure most desk jobs expect some sort of blazered outfit on women. I usually go with a blazer and sheath dress. I’m not sure I’d know if some people found that offensive, but I’ve gotten 0 visible reactions to this attire.

        2. Just Elle*

          To be fair, I don’t think black denim would work. They really don’t read the same level of dressy as black slacks. You can’t go wrong with black slacks and a blazer, but jeans could be the wrong move and its probably not worth the risk.
          If the pencil skirt accentuates your shape, and knowing its a web development job, I might advise something else. Just because my goal when I interview is to ensure none of the men can possibly even remember how attractive I am. Basically, not accentuate any feminine traits lol. I’m sure its totally fine, but there’s always that risk that you’ll come across as too young/flirty/whatever when you choose overtly feminine dress.
          If you have one near you, I’d recommend checking out White House Black Market. I always have lovely luck with interview outfits there, and the sales people are always so happy to style you (as long as you don’t go at 1pm on a Saturday or whatever). You can pick off the clearance rack which is usually an extra 40-50% off, or wait for a sale.

          1. L. S. Cooper*

            Unfortunately, as a plus size woman, most style options just don’t work for me. Dress pants always look hideous on me; I have large, muscular legs and an hourglass shape, meaning that “straight leg” styles look like skinnies or leggings that don’t fit me, and most of my height is in my torso, meaning that even high-waisted pants are often….not. I’m also trying to balance the desire to not look too intensely feminine with the fact that fat women are expected to perform femininity at a higher level in order to be treated decently.
            If I could find a pair of black slacks that actually fit me and didn’t make me look a full foot shorter than I am, didn’t make my torso look awful, and didn’t make my ankles look bizarre, I’d happily wear them! But I used up all my pants searching power finding the One Style Of Jeans That Works For Me(tm), which is why I’ve bought a pair of black jeans in that style. (I checked if they might have more formal pants from the same brand, but no dice– it’s American Eagle, so very casual/young/beachy styles for the most part. But some very nice jeans.)

            1. Just Elle*

              Argh that’s definitely tough! Well I’m still a huge fan of skirts for interviews (or even dresses with a blazer), they’re my go to! And perhaps the pencil skirt is perfect and you’re just being unnecessarily nervous. I think if I had to choose, obviously without seeing either, I’d go skirt just because it does read as too casual to me to wear denim to any job. But I do love American Eagle jeans!

      2. Batgirl*

        That sounds very smart. Pencil skirts are pretty much always a formal option and the only kind I’ve ever seen that’d be problematic are the stretchy lycra kind which could just as easily be worn as a long tube top. If by ‘tight and accentuates my shape’ you mean ‘the fabric has some stretch and tailoring, thus you can see my shape, because I’m not tented’ you’re fine.
        Oh and imo choosing a pencil skirt and blazer to wear together is one skill level above being able to choose a suit. I think the only time you should wear a suit to an interview is if it’s generally a daily suit wearing job or if matching up business casual jackets would give you too much of a headache. If people wear office-y dresses, pants and sweaters to work then a blazer and pencil skirt is definitely one level up for the interview.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      I think if you feel comfortable in that, it’ll be great, but even that is probably dressier than you need. My general rule is dress one or two levels above what the job would require. Developers are often jeans-and-graphic-t-shirts wearers, so I think nice pants and top are probably plenty dressy for an interview.

      1. b*

        The plus sized blogger Wardrobe Oxygen has some very good styling advice for work situations.

    3. San Juan Worm*

      As a hiring manager in the Mountain West, I would find the attire you describe to be perfectly appropriate.

  92. yams*

    IT FINALLY HAPPENED! There was an insane email sent by an ex staffer that “resigned.” It had everything–corporate espionage, blackmail, bribery, money laundering, sexual harassment, labor code violations, absolutely everything! I know it’s super bad because this is going to trigger like 4 lawsuits and bury us under audits but it was so juicy and it confirmed so many of the rumors going around the industry about my company–but I was so giddy while reading it! I spent a full day of work just going through it over and over again to get all the delicious morsels! (I’m also looking for a new job because oh boy, there are some gems in there). I wish I could share but it’s so full of identifying details I cannot.

    1. Murphy*

      HA! Save a copy to revisit later :)

      Also, if you remember Bill Hader’s character Stefon from SNL, that’s the voice I heard this in after you said it had everything.

      1. yams*

        YES! That was fully intended! That’s how I heard it in my brain while I was writing it!

        I saved a PDF and printed it out for safekeeping. I will definitely be sharing it next time there is an insane email post, hopefully by then the heat will have died down and I will figure out how to change things around.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      Details please. Just change the names to Game of Thrones characters, and shift the work to either the teapot or llama industry, and you should be fine.

  93. Alice*

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who offered advice last week. I had asked for advice about how to phrase that I don’t have significant experience with a certain tool used by 99% of people with my job title (which is part of why I’m trying to leave my current job, I am using outdated tools that are setting me back professionally).

    I had two interviews this week. The first one I bombed, they were looking for a very senior position and to be honest I’m not sure why they considered my profile at all. They were the ones reaching out to me, I wouldn’t have applied for this job as it requires management experience which I don’t have (and which is not on my resume!) Probably some HR snafu.

    However the second interview went much better, the interviewer even mentioned their training courses so I had an opening to mention how one of my career goals is getting more proficient with [technical skill] and while I’ve been taking some online courses I’d be thrilled to be with a company that has training programs for this specific thing. I have just now received a call back! I will have to study hard for the technical interview but at any rate even if this doesn’t pan out I’m optimist I’ll find something else.

  94. Fisher*

    Someone asked Alison a question this week about their workplace being TOO quiet. It bothered the letter writer that everyone just worked in silence all day. I just want to say that that would be my dream office. :-)

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Oh, you think that, but it is So. Weird. My open office with four cubicles was so quiet that I felt like opening a can of pop was a huuuge intrusion. And heaven forbid you have the hiccups or a cough!!

  95. Coverage Associate*

    Separate question. What makes a professional disliked or worse by their peers? I have a former boss who I dislike because she had no advice on how to improve when she had problems with my work, then let me go very abruptly, etc. (more abruptly than usual even for someone on a PIP)

    But even people who haven’t worked for her dislike her. My problems with other lawyers have usually relate to gender bias and occasionally general rudeness, like not returning calls. But nothing to raise antipathy, again unless there’s serious bias in play.

    So what’s other people’s experience about disliked professionals?

    1. designbot*

      In my office, people wind up disliked because of
      1) negative attitude. We need people to be yes-and for collaboration, not no-but.
      2) disrespect for people’s time. People who just don’t turn up to meetings, who don’t give feedback in a timely manner, or who send junior designers off on tangents that are unproductive.
      3) fakeness. We have a couple of people who are just so peppy about everything, everything is awesome, etc. that you can never tell where you stand with them. One of them actually fired a junior designer with literally zero warning, the dude thought he was doing amazing because he got so much positive feedback daily. They are not universally disliked, but are in a more divisive, love them or hate them position.

      1. Take Me Home!*

        +1 for fakeness
        Our office administrator (exceedingly nice and thoughtful person) has an extreme dislike for all fake people. I can tolerate them, but do see through it. But this leads to her more or less hating one of the other people on our very small team.

        1. Fey*

          Your office administrator is me. I see it right away, and the fakers know I know, and they absolutely despise me for it.

    2. Asenath*

      Rudeness covers a lot – including being unable to collaborate with others, or using tactics such as nagging, whining and refusal to accept a decision once it is made.

      Poor communication, which can veer into rudeness – that is, not responding to requests or questions, or promising something and then promptly forgetting it. Blaming subordinates (or peers, for that matter) for policies they didn’t make and which are outside their control.

      Too much communication – saying nasty things about their co-workers behind their backs. It gets back to them, eventually, and everyone who hears the gossip will wonder what’s being said about them, and won’t trust or respect the gossip, even if they have to still work with them.

      Sabotage – sometime hard to distinguish from poor communication or incompetence.

    3. Rainy days*

      #1 is always incompetence and unreliability. If we can’t depend on someone, it doesn’t really matter how nice they are.

      #2 is negativity/sniping/gossip.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      We had an attorney at my last day job who was universally disliked by staff, other partners, everyone. I assume he was not actively disliked by clients, because he had plenty. But that may have been because his clients were corporations, not individuals, and he was a specialist who saved them enormous sums of money.

      He was rude & impatient to everyone. Not all the time, but freely. He shouted and cursed at his secretary often. (She cursed him back. Most other admins refused to do coverage for him when she was out.)

      When he was in a good mood, he made jokes so vulgar they made the other male partners blush. He trashtalked his wife constantly. He was rumored to be “on thin ice” for being “inappropriate” with either female colleagues or staff – it was one of those head-waggy rumors that’s done more with eyebrows than words.

      The junior lawyers on his team loved the billable hours, but they always looked stressed and pinchy-faced (even more so than you’d expect from associates). The ones who transferred to a different practice group looked like they’d had a vacation and a vitamin shot.

      He was just gross and awful to be around.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      The following behaviors will cause dislike:
      1) People who work inefficiently and then go on and on about how many long hours they work expecting people to be impressed, as though it’s a good thing.
      2) People who go outside the scope of the project when the client asked instead of enforcing the scope/getting a change request in, in the name of “good customer service” but what they’re really doing is free work we coulda/shoulda/woulda billed for.
      3) People who have no problem asking others for help all the time but anytime anyone asks them for help “sorry too busy right”.
      4) People who are given a set amount of time in a presentation with multiple presenters and insist on going first and then go 3x longer than their allotted time. (not once, every time)
      5) Be in management and let #4 do that.
      6) Say one thing on Monday, the opposite on Tuesday, then Wednesday switch back again.
      7) Say one thing on Monday, in writing, then later say “I never said that!”

  96. Beth*

    I moved offices a month ago to get away from my loud coworker (LC). For a month after the move, with less LC contact, my productivity was measurably up and I was more relaxed about work. I told my bosses how thrilled I was about the move. LC had a habit of declaiming (loudly) at my new neighbor about his political opinions. Neighbor admits to tolerating, but not enjoying the “conversations”. I asked LC to stop with the political stuff. Now he’s taken to shouting in the neighbor’s doorway about his medical issues.

    I don’t know if I’m at bitch-eating-crackers phase or if this is really a problem. I am starting to think this man is following me to shout in my general vicinity. I’m ready to start job searching over this. How can I tell if I’m losing it over this issue?

    1. Just Elle*

      As an objective outsider who tends to give people the benefit of the doubt, I’d be genuinely surprised if he was doing it AT you.

      But regardless of who he’s doing it at, its inappropriate behavior that needs to be addressed. Its great you tried moving, but really that isn’t a solution too the root cause, since obviously everyone can’t move away from this guy and inevitably someone is going to be stuck with him. So can you have a general conversation with your supervisor about how LC is too loud and ask him for help addressing that?

      1. Beth*

        I’m the only one willing to report an issue to anyone higher up and we’re government so the supervisors can only do so much (and don’t seem willing to tackle this). Do I try with the bosses again? Intellectually I know he’s not doing this to personally annoy me, but I’m having a lot of trouble getting back to a place where I can politely say “LC, I need to review this 15 page teapot report with lots of calculations and I can’t have you shouting about your eye medication outside my door”.

        1. Just Elle*

          I think its worth bringing up with the bosses again. Even if they don’t do anything about it, its good to have it highlighted so that if things ever do escalate (or heaven forbid one day you snap and he runs to them complaining about you) they have a long documentation history. And who knows, maybe they’ll actually take action if you come to them and say “As you know I’ve tried XYZ to work around LC myself, but it isn’t working. Can you help me identify some next steps? I’m out of ideas.”

          1. Lilith*

            Try the positive approach: “use an inside voice please.”
            This *may* work better than the negative of: “don’t shout.”

          2. Beth*

            Thanks for the encouragement to send it back up the chain. I’m hoping that a weekend and vacation will get me to a point where I can ask for quiet calmly and rationally. Then the issue goes back in my bosses’ laps. I think I’m also signing off of helping my neighbor deal with LC’s visits. I don’t have the bandwidth for helping anyone else with this issue.

            1. valentine*

              Am I wrong that you were free, but poked the bear? Do what you can to diminish his impact on you, but don’t take up for others because you’ll look like you have an ax to grind with him. If a closed door and other things aren’t working, you can point out he’s diminishing your productivity again, but, since they didn’t tell him to shut up, you’ll probably have to devise your own solution, accept him as a tax on your job, or leave.

  97. FrontDeskComplaining*

    A while back, my manager informed me that moving forward I would be expected to cover the front desk two days a week while the receptionist is at lunch. The reason for this was to free up time for the person who usually covers. Opting out is not an option.

    My problem is that I truly hate covering the front desk. I’ve been pitching in when the regular people are on vacation and that’s not so bad but something about having to cover regularly just does not work for me. Sometimes I cry on days when I have to cover either at my desk or on my drive in. It takes me away from my normal lunch crowd so I feel lonely. I feel ridiculous that something which isn’t all that horrible affects me to this degree. I’ve started job searching because of it. Any advice on how to deal until I can find a new job?

    1. Celeste*

      It’s much harder when they change your job on you. Since you’re looking for a new job, all I can suggest is that you work out some rewards for yourself for completing days on the front desk. Just make it so you have something to look forward to. I know nothing will really make up for being unhappy at work, but sometimes just being knowing that the day is going to get better can help.

      1. FrontDeskComplaining*

        Rewards are a good suggestion, I’ll have to think of some for next week. Thanks for the idea!

        1. valentine*

          It’s perfectly reasonable to say you truly value your particular lunchtime and, if any amount of coverage would be tolerable (not just endurable, but really okay), suggest a rota of six or more people. I think it would really help you if you only had to do, say, Fridays, then look forward to your crowd for the bulk of the week.

          I’m curious why the usual person needs freeing but it’s okay to stick you with this sans training. It’s devaluing the job and your time. And if your job has nothing to do with reception or admin work and you’re a woman and likely being picked on for that, you can certainly bring that up.

      1. Jessen*

        This seems quite unnecessary. The poster is well aware that it’s a reasonable expectation, but knowing that isn’t making it less bad for her. I think everyone here has had something in their lives that’s perfectly ordinary and reasonable but that for some reason we just CANNOT handle. I see nowhere where she’s suggesting the secretary should take the burden instead.

        1. FrontDeskComplaining*

          I missed whatever the comment was but I guess it was not kind. I’m definitely not suggesting that anyone miss their lunch because of me! I also realize that being bothered to the degree that I am is…not normal…a bit extreme…insert other explanations here. I never thought I would be a good fit as a front desk receptionist and this experience is proving that right. I also did not realize that any front desk coverage would be expected when I accepted the job. Basically this job is not a good fit for me now and I’m doing my best to try and find something else.

          1. twog*

            I’m here with sympathy!

            I was a real estate admin at a housing development and was told one day:
            “In the staff meeting* this week, we decided it would be a great idea for you to cover the front desk at the development office while X is in class”
            X was the existing receptionist/office manager who was also a full time college student.

            I cried. I ugly cried at the very prospect. I’m kind of embarrassed about it now. but It felt — not good. I was being shuffled around with no notice or regard for my actual work.

            It didn’t help that the receptionist was VERY condescending to me and pushed all of the work that she didn’t feel like doing off on me.

            *They called it a staff meeting, but it was only management.

            1. NotTheReceptionist*

              Living this nightmare now too, so you have my sympathies! Not what I signed up for, by any stretch. They had one of those ‘Meetings’ without including me. Not happy at all, although I have no plans to leave. It’s just a damn inconvenience and the actual receptionist is way too big for her boots! Especially considering I am the Admin Manager and she is MY assistant.

    3. Batgirl*

      I’m really good at reception work, and also juggled handling of the Great British Public while working on a very ‘in touch’ open access news desk where readers (many of whom were batcrap nut job fantasists) could roll up on us straight off the street while we were on deadline.

      I enjoyed it…but no. Reception work (like cleaning or childcare work) is work in its own right even if it is done mostly by women. It has its own set of solid skills and frustrations and you’ve got to know the deal going in. Being asked to do it in a blase way usually has a gender element (not always; my male, het, cis IT specialist fiance got asked to cover the phones as part of his bait and switch, but they did at least accept that this was highly likely to make him grouchy).
      In my experience though when you’re expected to ‘not mind’ doing something unrelated to your job it’s because its a female coded task to do with cleaning, people skills, planning parties, child or pet watching.
      Generally it happens when you’re a female, but even if you’re not they’re seen as as ‘if a girl can do it you can’ jobs.

  98. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

    Sigh.

    The colleague-I-have-a-huge-crush-on is leaving.

    I am…. I don’t know what I am right now.

    1. Just Elle*

      The perfect time to make a move! It will be much less painful if the feeling isn’t mutual when he’s leaving so soon.

      1. valentine*

        Let them be, especially if you’re their manager. Find a good, non-work, place to put that energy.

    2. Rainy days*

      If you’re serious about the crush, you’ll be able to safely pursue it when you’re no longer colleagues.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      If neither of you is taken, make your move now! I did and we’re together atm. :)

  99. Leah*

    So I’m the person who, a couple of weeks ago, accidentally wrote on my cover letter the wrong name of the job I was applying for. Well, I wish I had a more exciting update, but unfortunately, I didn’t get the job. The job asked for knowledge of a few internal systems that I never worked with before, because these are systems that are exclusive to a different department than the one I currently work in. Although I figured I could learn how to utilize the systems quite easily and was even doing some research on whether there are online training available for employees, the manager said that there were other candidates who had knowledge of these systems, so he decided not to move on with my application. I didn’t even get an interview, unfortunately. It was a huge bummer, but I’m trying not to let myself be too disappointed.

    In other news, my office, who spans three floors on the building where we work at, has decided to close down one of our floors. This is going to result in multiple people being transferred to different locations, including my work friend who eats lunch and chats with me every day. We’re both super upset about it, and morale in general at the office is at an all-time low. I figured that, since browsing the intranet for jobs isn’t being very fruitful, I might as well look elsewhere, and I actually found some interesting job openings on Linkedin that are exactly what I would like to do in my career. I’m going to take the weekend to write a few cover letters and send my resume to the ones that I feel are the most interesting. Wish me luck!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Good luck! It’s great that you’re finding jobs of interest to apply for :)

  100. Just Elle*

    How do you change the way you dress or act if you know you’re likely to run into coworkers outside of working hours? To my horror, my new gym is filled with all my coworkers. Also, its a small town so its fairly common to run into them at the grocery store, the dog park, bars, etc. I feel like there are no safe places for me to wear yoga pants these days!

    1. fposte*

      It’s okay to be seen by your co-workers in yoga pants! No need to change the way you dress outside of work.

      1. Just Elle*

        You don’t get the slightest bit of heebie jeebies at the idea of young men you have a leadership roll over (and are the same age as) knowing what your butt looks like? I mean, I’m sure I’m overthinking it. But I feel so self conscious when they see me!

        1. fposte*

          Obviously you can wear something else if you want (I like sporty drawstring/elastic waist knit shorts myself), but they’re likely just as exposed as you are. The key is to own it, and not scurry away from them backwards to keep your butt out of view. It’s about wearing the uniform of the place–if you were in a pool, a swimsuit would be the appropriate uniform there, too–and not about what is and isn’t visible on your body. (I bet they already guessed you had a butt, since most of us do :-).)

            1. valentine*

              They already know what your butt looks like. You can’t control what they do about that. Ideally, they will do nothing, as we all go around not thinking about colleagues’ butts, hopefully, or cleavage, as with the recent letter. I wear v-necks or tank tops and my comfort is more important than anyone’s occasional view they don’t deserve because being a creep is an entirely avoidable decision and not based on what anyone wears.

              Don’t monitor yourself or curtail your life in service of assumptions about colleagues who are also neighbors. You get to be life-you just as teachers and nuns do.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      Wear yoga pants whenever you want. Seriously. No one expects you to be polished up in a suit all the time. I wouldn’t think a thing of it to see my boss, my coworker, or a teacher out and about in whatever they want. I don’t run into people from my work often, but I always joke that when I do, it’s always on the day I decided not to wear a bra out.

    3. Rainy*

      I…don’t? If I’m at the gym or yoga studio, of course I’m wearing yoga pants.

      I go to the grocery store on my own time. I’ll wear whatever the heck I want.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Yoga pants and ripped jeans ARE the work attire for women employees where I bank. At my bank. That’s one way to encourage online banking, I guess.

    5. Tesserae*

      Wear the yoga pants, maybe throw on a light jacket for heading back home. As someone said on the internet last week, “The beach is going get the body I bring it.”

  101. VV007*

    For context: I work in a small department, there were 4 of us until my coworker quit and we are hiring for an additional person. The position we are hiring for is senior to my position, it has more responsibility, flexibility, and higher pay but does not supervise my position. I have decided to not apply for this position despite encouragement from my supervisor as I feel the job itself does not interest me. Yes, the higher pay and increased flexibility would be nice but I don’t need the extra money and I know that flexibility in our organization means you are expected to be available whenever is needed. Right now I feel I am paid well and also have the protection of being non-exempt which means I rarely get asked to stay late and have standard hours. Plus our vacation and sick leave policies are generous enough that I find I already get a decent amount of flexibility. My question is: will the fact that I am not applying for this job reflect badly on me in the future? I don’t want to seem like I’m not a go-getter and would love to move up if the position was different. I don’t want the job but I’m worried that not applying for a job that my supervisor has outright stated that she would love it if I applied will reflect badly on me in the future!

    1. Me*

      I guess I’m curious what higher level role you’d be waiting for that doesn’t?
      At a point they pretty much do become salaried and require occasional overtime.

      Is it because the work itself doesn’t interest you? If that’s the case, I would simply talk to your supervisor and tell them you really appreciate that they think you’d be a strong candidate for this position. You are interested in advancing but after careful consideration don’t think this role is the best fit for your strengths and interests.

      1. VV007*

        It is a combination of the work itself and the fact that while I am okay with going salaried and the occasional overtime, the position requires more nights/weekends then I am comfortable with. I guess I’m nervous to tell my supervisor that the work itself doesn’t interest me as that work is the only career advancement available to me in my current department. I feel like if I admit its the work itself that doesn’t interest me then it’s a dead giveaway that eventually I will want to transfer to another department that has more career advancement in the type of work I do enjoy.

        1. valentine*

          If she’s not okay with you transferring, she’s not a good supervisor. I say take the chance because at least you’ll know if she’s going to be a hindrance.

  102. Liza*

    How best should I raise concerns over sharing work with a co-worker who isn’t able to access said work?

    I work part time and share a caseload with another part time worker. He is an industry veteran in his seventies who is great at the face to face element of the job but pretty much completely computer illiterate. We are supposed to schedule quarterly meetings with clients to check in with them and fill out paperwork. This is monitored and affects our funding. I’m having to shoulder this element solely on my own because he can’t use the computer to access people’s information. I’ve been reminded not to do it all myself, but so far no joy. I tried giving him a list of clients names and asked if he could schedule some meetings, but he said he “hasn’t seen any of them”. We’re not allowed to keep paper copies of contact info for data protection purposes, so unless I schedule meetings for him, I don’t really see how this is going to work as a shared responsibility.

    I feel really bad bringing this up because he’s wonderful with people, and clearly he’s one of those people whose job has just changed around him over a number of years. I also worry about seeming a hypocrite as part of the reason I’m struggling is that I have cognitive difficulties around this myself (keeping track of names, numbers, who I’ve invited to what, remembering to update people’s case notes, etc).

    My workplace has a highly respected award for being sensitive to the unique needs of a diverse workforce, including those with mental health. How can I respectfully raise the issue of the shared workload, and of my own difficulties with the administrative side of things, without looking like I’m being insensitive to my co-worker?

    1. fposte*

      Assuming you have a decent relationship with your boss, “Boss, is there some kind of accommodation the org can figure out for Bob? He’s really struggling with the computer side, and I don’t have the skills to see where the problem is or the capacity to cover that for him.”

      I can’t guarantee that there will be a happy solution, but this at least frames it at something that the organization might be able to find a way to handle–and that you can’t be expected to.

      1. Auntie Social*

        This is good, and I’d suggest an all day out of office class on calendaring, basic computers skills, whatever. The company wants to keep Bob, so I don’t think they’d mind paying $200-300 for a class.

        1. Liza*

          I’ll try these, thanks folks. My own manager is away at the moment but I have a meeting scheduled with GrandBoss next Wednesday and this is first on my agenda. Thanks again!

  103. Wulfgar*

    TLDR; client asked me to be honest and fired me when I (finally) was. Set boundaries and don’t become friends with clients.

    I’m my own boss and only employee as a pet sitter. Pet siting is more than just walking and playing with dogs, and after seven years I’ve burnt out. I have a client who goes away about two weekends a month, every holiday, and additional week vacations throughout the year plus midday visits every M-F. I stay overnight when they are away plus four visits a day.

    This client always says if we’re going away too much, just tell us. We don’t want to take advantage of you. When they got back from vacation on Monday, she was too tired to go to work, but she still wanted me to take care of her dogs, but she said she’d walk with us. She asked me what was wrong, and I told her that I was a little resentful that she’s off because her vacation was so tiring and I’m on day 8 of a 19 day work stretch.

    She freaked out and told me that she works hard, kind of implying that I don’t. Then she said that they are very considerate of my time as they could go away more frequently. Then she called me ungrateful for not thanking them for the tip they left. They didn’t leave me a tip this time, which is weird, but I thought they were saying something about my prices. Then she practically called me a liar when I said there wasn’t a tip. Her husband sent a text implying the same.

    She said that they treated me like family. They were very generous with their money, but they always assumed that I’d be available, so I felt like I could never say no. She called me at 9:30 pm on a Friday night and said we need you to stay the night with our dogs. Then she called at 10:00 and said never mind.

    So, on Monday she told me that they would look for another sitter. We agreed that I would keep on until they found someone new. Then her husband gets home and says that he wants the keys back. I gave them back and felt free for the first time in seven years.

    I hope they find a great sitter, but I have a feeling that they will try to take advantage of anyone they hire. I don’t know what they’ll do if they get someone who sets firm boundaries. Not my circus, not my monkeys. Thank God.

    1. Rainy days*

      There are plenty of people out there who only behave badly with people they know will tolerate it. This is bullying, and it’s gross.

      With that said, it’s on you to set boundaries with these kinds of clients and decline jobs you don’t want, or charge higher prices for unnatractive jobs (weekends, holidays, especially long trips). If they call after 8pm, don’t answer the phone. Better yet, give out a Google Voice phone number and change the settings so it automatically goes to voicemail between certain hours. You don’t need to “be honest” with clients, you just need to tell them you’re busy with other jobs on XX dates and can’t work for them then.

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Phew, what a relief that sounds like. You didn’t ask for advice, so obviously ignore this if you’d like, but perhaps to avoid this type of situation in the future you should establish some policies regarding notice and availability for pet sitting jobs. I don’t think anyone should expect a single pet sitter to be available every time they ever request, these former clients sound batty.

    3. fposte*

      This whole thing sounds like it turned into a nest of weird enmeshment, and I think it’s good you’re done with it. I don’t think it can be a viable professional relationship once the owner is asking the sitter if they’re going away too much or the sitter says they resent the owner for needing her services.

      So I’d say, aside from the relief, your goal going forward is to define your boundaries, preferably in a written document. What advance notice will you require? What additional charges will there be for unexpected extending of vacations? For your internal use, what percentage of time is acceptable for you to be staying at other people’s houses?

      Then stick to those, and say no when you’re asked to do things that breach your policies. Customers who can’t cope with your saying a reasonable no are more trouble than they’re worth.

      1. valentine*

        preferably in a written document.
        Yes, draw up a contract. If you don’t want to do housework, don’t. (Maybe network with a cleaning service to recommend each other.) And sticking to pet care will probably help you. I hope you are charging accordingly and not seeing it as favors. If you require they actually be away when you work (and not accompany you!), say so. You might switch to no-cash in case of future disgruntled clients. And watch out for people who don’t have backup plans. You shouldn’t be their only hope.

        It sounds like you were always available to this ex-client, which means they never had a chance to respond to not hearing back from you (unless what happened is you gave in after multiple rude texts) on short notice or you saying a particular time didn’t work for you. Maybe they are ask people and were expecting you to say you need x days notice or you can only do y overnights in a row, z days/weeks apart. What you said punished them for asking when you had never said there was a problem. (Are you a guess person?) They are right to assume you’re doing what you want because you’re your own boss and they may not know you felt you couldn’t say no. You are probably better off apart, though.

    4. WellRed*

      “I told her that I was a little resentful that she’s off because her vacation was so tiring and I’m on day 8 of a 19 day work stretch.”
      oy! What a thing to say. If you need a vacation that’s on you, not her.

      1. Alianora*

        Yeah … if she asks you to pet sit on short notice, you can say no even if she’s assuming you will. Setting your own boundaries is an essential skill, especially if you’re your own boss. You’re not a helpless object who has to do whatever the client says, and it’s not up to the client to plan your vacations for you.

        Sounds like the client behaved badly too, but I wouldn’t have reacted well to that statement either.

      2. Clisby*

        That’s … a weird thing to say. You, not your clients, should set the days you work. If somebody asks you to pet-sit and you say OK, why on earth would you be resentful? It’s just business. If you don’t want to work some of those days, don’t.

      3. Jasnah*

        I agree. This client was not the greatest, but if my pet sitter said they were resentful of my vacation (when me being away is what pays her bills), I’d assume she was tired of my money. And I’d look for someone with better sense of professionalism.

    5. rtr*

      So you go over there 4 times a day to take care of dogs? And sleep over 2 weekends / month and then when they go away for a few weeks a year? Am I understanding that correctly cause honestly it doesn’t sound that bad. It honestly sounds more like you are jealous of their lifestyle and that they are able to go on so many vacations. You wrote that you were resentful while they were away because you were on day 8 of a 19 day stay. But you are working and getting paid, and they are not. How many hours per day are you taking care of the dogs while they are away? Sounds like you have a lot of freedom to watch tv, ready, be on the computer, etc. If it is a huge burden to stay in someone else’s home while they travel, then that is definitely not the job for you. But honestly it sounds like a low stress job. Sounds like you just want a change in your career though. They don’t sound like bad people. Sounds like they are confused about what they paid you, but they sound like they are genuinely trying to make you happy and told you they don’t want to take advantage of you. Sounds like you are burnt out and just need something else. Good luck

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        I did not get this from the comment. I think the sitter just needed/needs to going forward set boundaries and policies about her workload. What seems like “not a lot” to you may be a lot to the Wulfgar, and as Wulfgar is a professional pet sitter I doubt this was her only client.

    6. Wulfgar*

      I almost didn’t post this because it seems like some commenters think that service or non-professional jobs aren’t as important as other jobs. Pet sitting is not just sitting around watching tv or playing on my laptop. It includes walking in all weather, travel, taking dogs to the vet or groomer, etc. I also did their laundry and other house things.

      As for feeling resentful, posters say here all the time that they are upset and unhappy with their bosses; they just don’t say it to their bosses. Do professionals who work in an office building have a right to be happy in their jobs, but service people don’t?

      I understand that I’ve brought this upon myself by posting online, but I get a real vibe that service workers aren’t welcome on this site.

      1. fposte*

        There are plenty of service workers posting here. And, as with many jobs, other people often don’t understand what they entail. Of course it’s work! And of course you’re allowed to be unhappy with your work! And also of course, if you’re commenting on an advice blog, we’re going to note when there are some things you have control over to make you less unhappy in the future. So I hope you’ll think about doing them and that you have happier jobs in the future.

        Is there a specific question you were hoping to get more of an answer to? If so, ask away and we’ll see what we can do.

      2. Alianora*

        The only comment I see here that even brought up the specifics of pet sitting was rtr’s. Everyone else’s advice would apply regardless of whether you’re a pet sitter or artist or self employed lawyer.

      3. Natalie*

        As for feeling resentful, posters say here all the time that they are upset and unhappy with their bosses;

        But you did. Or more accurately, you said it to a client. You’re not an employee, you’re an independent contractor, and part of the deal is setting your own boundaries around work load. That’s literally one of the defining characteristics of a freelancer. Someone offered you a gig and you accepted it, that doesn’t make it their responsibility that you feel burned out.

        There are many small business owners and freelancers in my life, and this is something they have all struggled with at some point in their careers (or, realistically, continuously struggle with). However you learn to handle it, I can promise you that expecting your clients to somehow divine how frequently they can contact you or with what kind of notice is not realistic.

        1. Natalie*

          Quote fail, that was supposed to be the whole sentence: “As for feeling resentful, posters say here all the time that they are upset and unhappy with their bosses; they just don’t say it to their bosses.”

        2. fposte*

          Yes, this is a big a reason why I don’t want to own my own business, and jobs that have any element of personal service/operating in client space are especially notorious for expectation creep. Reading AAM makes it clear how hard it is for many people just to say what they want, or say no to what they don’t, and that ability is the spine of a freelance business. Otherwise you can so easily get sucked in to the people who “treat you like family” when what you need is to be treated like a professional whose work sometimes takes you to their house.

        3. BRR*

          This sums up why some of the replies are unpleasant. This customer sounds awful. Really awful. But saying you’re resentful to the customer wasn’t great. But I also completely understand how at a certain point, you can’t take customer’s behavior anymore.

      4. Batgirl*

        This issue definitely wasn’t caused by you not recognising and relishing a good thing in the form of an easy living. Caring for someone else’s dependants is HARD.
        It was caused by your clients thinking that they had more right to set limits than you did.
        It was also caused by you believing that form of gaslighting, and believing ‘clients = boss of me’ was a reasonable expectation.
        I think fposte is right: the relationship wasn’t viable because of this dynamic.
        What if you pencilled in your vacations now ahead of all bookings? You are your own boss! You have a hard job which legitimately needs some off time.
        Then when requests come in, you assess how it works against your planned vacation time.
        If you cant/don’t want to move vacation time say “That won’t work as I have vacation time booked, but I can do x/ maybe next time”
        Sure it’ll run off some control freaks but the right kind of client will go for it.

      5. Clisby*

        But your clients aren’t your bosses. At least, if I understand the situation correctly, you are your own boss. Your clients are your customers. It’s not a matter of thinking service workers (pet-sitters in particular) aren’t performing a valuable service. It’s that you’re in charge of when/how/at what price you will work.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Okay, here’s the thing. We are not denigrating service professionals. You absolutely deserve to be happy in your work. But when you’re a sole proprietor, it falls on you to set the conditions under which you can do that.

      First, this client sucks. She took advantage of you. It’s okay to fire a client if the relationship is not working out for you, and I think in this case, you probably needed to do that long before it got this far. Your burnout was likely coming from her! It’s not easy sometimes to maintain professional relationships when you’re in someone’s home, taking care of their family member (pets are family!). It’s a hard way to learn that lesson, and I’m sorry it sucked so much.

      Second, you didn’t say if you had one, but if not, you need a contract. Pig’s pet sitter had one, and it was very clear what they would and would not do and / or charge for. This is normal stuff for a service or freelance business. You can probably even find some templates online, or ask other pet sitters what they do. (I assume also that you’re insured, but if not, you should be. Also normal stuff if you’re going into people’s homes.)

      As the owner of this business, it’s entirely your right to set your hours and your fees, including a higher charge for more involved work (like giving medication) or overnight jobs, short notice, etc. Put it in writing and have clients sign it. Give them a copy and keep the original, every time. Then, if you have any problems, you’re covered.

      Third, you’re absolutely right—this client is no longer your problem. Yay! To prevent this from happening again, you need to be the one to set firm boundaries and stick with them. If you stay with pet-sitting, I think you’ll get much better clients if you let them know that up front.

  104. designbot*

    I had my yearly review yesterday, and while the conversation wound up okay in the end, I’m going to need a bit to get over how it started. My boss released feedback to me through our online system the night before, and it was uniformly negative. Some of my scores were okay but wherever the score was good there was no commentary. Every comment he put was negative, and often uninforme or outdated. I was livid and spent the night almost sleepless figuring out what on earth to do with this. In the end I walked in and was brutally honest, that it felt like he didn’t see anything good in me, or if he did he didn’t value it, and if that’s how he feels let’s get it out there because it’s the top of the job market and better for me to move on now than a year from now.
    Guys it turns out he was not malicious but neglectful, as so often happens. He went into the comments with the mental framework as “I have to justify the lower marks” instead of “I should be giving a full review of how this person is doing.” I believe him, as he is frequently thoughtless, but this is like, the most stunning example of how his thoughtlessness puts me at a disadvantage. That was the review he logged officially to be submitted to our HR team, that would determine things like my pay, my bonuses, and if worse comes to worse and we had to lay people off possibly impact whether they keep more or not. While I appreciate that the reason wasn’t malicious, I’m so stunned by how little this person looks out for me and understands his role in my well being in the firm.
    I don’t know how much I’m asking for advice vs commisseration, but how do you move on from something like this?? Grandboss was there and was amazing for bridging the gap in the moment, but I don’t think necessarily realizes how much this attitude of his permeates our relationship or how wide-ranging the impacts probably are.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I have no idea of what advice I should give, but damn, what a horrible situation!

    2. Alianora*

      I’m shocked at how awful your manager is at managing. Honestly I would bring this up to your grandboss, and lay out your concerns about having no positive comments in your yearly review as well as the other ways his attitude has affected your work.

      I don’t know if it’s possible to change the official yearly review but it sure seems like this is a situation where your boss should revisit it.

      1. designbot*

        He is revising it, and grandboss very helpfully in the review did hold him accountable and said she expected an updated review from him. I guess maybe after that’s settled I should circle back with her… the more I think about it, the question that comes up for me is “Why was I so ready to believe he’d just slam me like that? And the answer truly is, because I don’t feel like he recognizes my value outside of review time either. I don’t feel like he sees what I do, or where he does see it he takes it for granted.

        1. Alianora*

          Well, that’s good your grandboss has your back at least. Sounds like she’d be responsive to hearing your other criticism about him.

          1. valentine*

            I should circle back with her
            Figure out what changes you want, then tell her the bigger picture and ask her advice on bringing it up with boss.

            In future, limit your opening to asking why he did xyz. Hold off on the bigger stuff and threatening to quit.

  105. Lalaroo*

    Someone mentioned a few weeks/months ago a tool to assess the level of threat of workplace violence from an employee. I think the organization that produces the tool also has one for domestic violence, if I’m remembering right. Does anyone know what that tool might be? I can’t find it and I have a situation where I’d like to be able to use it.

  106. JustaTech*

    A little venting and then a fun question:

    Vent: My director announced he’s quitting on Monday. My direct boss, who will be taking over most of Director’s duties, has been on vacation all week. Director didn’t want to bother Boss on vacation, so was going to wait until 11am Monday to tell Boss. I (and another coworker) have meetings with Boss at 9am Monday and I said to Director “No, you are taking our meeting time and telling Boss then if you don’t over the weekend. I am not going to lie to Boss, and I’m not going to be the one telling him, either.”
    What I was thinking was “Dude, you are a *director*. Do not dump the bearing of bad news on three junior women.”

    This is extra sensitive because Boss is often left out of the loop on projects and information (some times deliberately, sometimes not) *and* boss was out the last time someone in our group quit, so he’s going to be super grumpy.

    So, enough grumbling.

    Fun Question: What tiny, minuscule thing could your office do to make life better?
    My office: marginally higher quality paper towels. The towels we have now disintegrate at the touch of a damp hand, so you have to grab like 6 to get one to actually come out of the holder so you can dry your hands.

    1. Jessen*

      A toaster oven. I so miss having one at my last job. There are so many things that heat up nicely in the toaster oven that just sog in the microwave.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh man, the day the facilities folks took away the toaster, toaster oven and panini machine over a misunderstanding of the fire code, the howls of outrage were intense.

        The difference between a slice of bread and a piece of toast is *huge*.

        (I looked up the fire code, showed them that they were wrong and everything was back the next day.)

    2. Sandra Dee*

      Soap – yes, soap – we have automatic soap dispensers in our newly renovated buildings, and they do not work, at all. To the point that they have added bottles of soap in the restrooms, in addition to the auto-soap. And the sinks are motion activated too. I am an adult, I would like to be able to control the flow of soap and water. I am responsible, I can handle it. I promise. Because I can guarantee that the little drop of soap the auto-dispenser provides does not kill a single germ.

    3. Alex*

      Milk. They could provide milk.

      They provide coffee, but no milk. How hard would it be to buy two gallons of milk (one for each kitchen) and have the office assistant restock when necessary? We’re talking probably $10 a week here.

      Instead, people all try to bring their own milk, so we have fridges filled with milk cartons with different names on them. It takes up so much room, and then there are fights over whether or not it is OK to move people’s milk to the door (OMG do people have opinions on whether or not milk belongs in the door!)

      Seriously I don’t know why they can’t do this, but the director has explicitly said NO they are not providing milk.

  107. Unexciting Review*

    My annual review is approaching and… I have no idea what to say this year. For previous years I’ve had very clear growth – new projects, new skills, etc. – this past year I’ve mainly been managing all the new work I’ve taken on over the previous years. I’m used to having reviews that highlight all the new and exciting things I’ve done, and I don’t know how to handle a review that’s more about continuing to do well in my current position. I assume it’s normal to have more stable job duties but it’s new for me. Any advice?

    1. Take Me Home!*

      I have a review today! We do them every quarter, so I’m used to having pretty boring ones. For me it can often be, I’ve excelled at managing X Y and Z projects and feel that I’d like to get stronger at skill A. Then my boss goes and we see how much our assessments of my work match up. Sometimes it’s been as little as a half hour, sometimes we get into bigger long term things.

      One thing you could do is ask colleagues that have been there longer if they’ve got insight into how your manager handles this more stable period.

  108. ConfusedKitty*

    Hi, first-time commenter & long-timer lurker…. I have a question about lay-offs: One of my colleagues got fired/was layd off lately (“Jane”). In my country, workers rights are quite strong, so firing is avoided by managers/CEOs. Usually, you need very very good reasons and in most cases there will be a sum paid for the employee, which is fine and fair. I did not work with Jane, and had nearly no personal contact / relationship with her, because she works in homeoffice and is a completely different department. Even though I did remarke that there are issues with her behaviour and communication style, which may be part of the reasons for the lay-off. Other female colleagues (Cindy and Mariella) are friends with Jane, and I feel pressured to take sides. But I am not upset about it, even though I feel sorry for Jane. I also do not want to take part in gossiping. I simply avoided to express an opinion about the lay-off, only made clear that I am sorry for Jane.
    In particular Cindy (very gossipy) tried to make me give away information she thought I may have, and this was during a time when there was a court hearing about the lay-off. I knew about the planned lay-off since quite a long time before it took place, because my CEO told me. I am a (new) manager of 3 people and one of them (Anna) will be without duties in the future. Because Anna is a very strong and capable candidate, my CEO wanted to keep Anna and transfer Janes duties to her. So he asked me if this would be ok for me – and of course it is!
    When Cindy talked to me, I pretended not to know any details, because of the ongoing court hearing. I do not want to interfere into any legal issues. Now everything is decided, Jane is gone, my direct report Anna is taking over the new duties, and I can feel that Cindy and Mariella are very very pissed. They don’t create any problems for me, but act very cold and distant. I think it is ok for me.
    But – I ask myself if there was a moment where I should have handled this situation differently? Should I have said directly to Cindy: “I am sorry, but I do not want to discuss the matter with you?” Should I have contacted Jane prior to her last day to tell her: “I feel sorry for you and whish you all the best!” I didn’t because I do not have any direct relations with her, and there was no occasion to say good-bye. Is there some office etiquette about lay-offs I do not know about? (Sorry for my english, no native speaker)

    1. fposte*

      While some of this is dependent on culture, I’d lean toward saying “I’m not talking about this with you, sorry,” over lying that you don’t know anything. But honestly, Cindy sounds like the kind of person who’d be pissed off either way, and you can, if you feel it’s useful at some point now, say to her “I’m sorry I misled you, but I couldn’t tell you anything- and I felt a little trapped in the moment.” It doesn’t sound like you had anything significant to do with Jane so I don’t see any reason for you to have sent her a goodbye message.

      So ultimately I think you’re imperfect but fine, and that mostly this is Cindy being a drama llama. You’re smart to shrug her off.

      1. valentine*

        It’s true you didn’t know anything you could share, not that you would have, and saying you won’t discuss it might have Cindy interpreting it as an admission that you Know Something.

        It’s possible they’re mad on Jane’s behalf and think you got rid of Jane to help Anna, but they may well just be mad you didn’t tell them anything. The person to look out for is Anna, if she interacts with them.

        As a manager, you can either speak to Cindy’s manager about reining her in or tell Cindy to stop gossiping.

    2. Asenath*

      I tend to think it’s best to be direct and say “I don’t want to discuss this situation”, but I know how hard it can be to stick to that when you’re faced with a determined gossip. And Cindy and Mariella might have been pissed anyway – it doesn’t sound like they have any understanding that the world does not revolve around their need for gossip! So I don’t think the situation would be much different even if you had been more direct earlier.

      Since you didn’t know or work with Jane, I think it would have seemed very odd if you went out of your way to say goodbye to her. If you had worked in the same office, it would have been fine to say goodbye and wish her well.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      I wouldnt’ say, “I don’t want to discuss…”, I would instead say, “I can’t discuss the situation…”, if necessary, add, “in any way, shape, form or manner.” You are a manager. You cannot gossip or discuss the employment status or lack thereof of any employee with other staff members. By saying the above, you are reminding them you are management and they are not. Sometimes you are privy to information that you simply cannot share. If they are cold and distant, that helps reinforce the difference in rank.

  109. Jessen*

    This is more of a “for the future” question, but – how would you explain why you’re looking for jobs in a different area when the reason you’re looking isn’t one you want to bring up in an interview?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Just stick to something generic. “Oh I’ve just always wanted to do X, and I saw this position come up and it seemed like a great opportunity for me to move towards that.” There’s a lot of things you probably don’t want to get into in an interview and sometimes people can read more between the lines of a generic response and sometimes it works for them. Like when I was last job searching, I told the job I have now that I wanted a shorter commute. My commute from there vs. the other job was literally less than two miles but I really didn’t want to say “My current boss is a raging B and couldn’t do her job if her life depended on it.” :p

      1. Take Me Home!*

        I read this as a different geographic area (possible bias since this is what I’m doing), in which case it would probably depend on if you’re going to a specific place or away from your current place. For me, I moved east coast to west coast a year and a half ago and failed to make friends, so now I want to go to a different part of the east coast. It has been sufficient in my interviews to just say something like ‘I’ve got ties to the area and am excited to make the move.’ I haven’t gotten further questions after that and one of the jobs got reorged out and the other was too low salary for me, so despite me not having achieved success yet, I think the answer has gone over fine.

        1. Jessen*

          Right, I’m thinking different geographic area, sorry. I have a lot of nasty family drama and I think long-term it would be better to be somewhere else, because certain people make boundaries exhausting. But that is really not an interview appropriate answer.

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            I think Bunny Girl’s script can still work, though. Just sub out “I always wanted to do X” with “I’ve been very interested in moving to City.”

          2. Bunny Girl*

            Oh sorry for mis-reading! I thought you meant different job field. You can always be vague about that too! “I’ve always wanted to live in City A! I really like (pick one thing and insert here).” I’ve moved around a lot and I’ve honestly never really had anyone push for an answer as to why I moved honestly.

            1. Jessen*

              Gotcha! I’ve also thought of “I want to get away from the prices, you know?” I live right now in a pretty notoriously expensive area. And I really don’t like the prices, it’s like 1200 a month for a one-bedroom.

          3. Lily Rowan*

            For any job interview question, the answer is why you are moving toward X. Why are you interested in this job? Not because your current job is a dumpster fire, because this job is so exciting! Why are you looking to relocate? Because you’ve always wanted to live in City X. Even if you’re applying all over the place. In the interview in City X, you are dying to live in City X.

  110. Gandalf the Nude*

    Perfect timing…

    I left my job last year after a long period of burnout, took a few months to recover, went back to temp work in the summer, and have been doing that since. I’ve been out of my field for 14 months at this point. My mental health has never been great (ADHD, started treatment but had to pause while un/deremployed), and my biggest struggle is executive dysfunction, so I only manage to apply to jobs fairly sporadically. Job searching just hits on like every one of my weaknesses.

    Jump to this week–I had a fit of productivity and applied to a dozen-ish jobs. Apparently, one of those openings is with my old boss, Taylor’s, new company, which I didn’t know at the time (and wouldn’t have applied if I had). They just texted and asked me to give them a call this afternoon. I adore Taylor as a person, but oh, gods, I don’t think I could work for them again. It’s not even that they’re a bad boss–we just have too many of the same weaknesses and don’t work well together. I could maybe work in their chain if they weren’t my direct manager, but I couldn’t be their direct report again.

    So, I guess, I’m looking for some help with language? It would be one thing if I had tons of options, but it feels kind of insulting to admit “I’d rather keep temping than work with you again.”

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Maybe “I just got a great, long temping contract, so I’m holding off on the job search for a little while, and am therefore withdrawing my candidacy?”

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        I have no idea–I wish I did! (And I just realized that’s not clear.)

        I might consider it if there’s a layer between us.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          I would ask– “is this position reporting into you?” then if it is a yes, you can say “Oh that would be cool! But I have this opportunity I think I am going to stay with now…”

  111. XRaeofHR*

    Just some venting on recruiting:
    -If you won’t set up your voicemail or provide a valid email address. Stop applying for jobs.
    -If you are not going to respond to phone calls, emails, or messages through the job board you applied from. Stop applying for jobs.
    -If you are going to tell me you are not interested or available for a new position. Stop applying for jobs.
    -If you are going to not show up for your interview. Stop applying for jobs.

    In all of these examples, people keep applying after these interactions have occurred. I just don’t understand why one would waste their own time if they are not actually interested in employment. Rant over.
    Thank you.

  112. lizbethfrances*

    Does anyone have any tips on transitioning staff who are no longer entry level, but also not at a point where they can operate fully independently? I’ve had an issue a couple of times now where, once someone is promoted from our entry level and starts getting independence on some of their projects, they seem to want the full independence that our very experienced staff get. I understand the desire, but generally they still need help on various things, from project scoping to analytical approach to developing a full report on their own for the first time. What seems to happen is a growing reticence to respond to feedback or requests for changes. If it’s not major, I generally let it go forward and the person learns when the proposed approach just doesn’t pan out. Sometimes, there’s not enough time for that or there is a more fundamental issue.

    I’m not quite willing to chalk this up just to the staff involved, as this is the third time I’ve had trouble with someone at this point in their trajectory. I’m great at helping new staff (and usually fresh out of grad school) learn, and I’m great at giving experienced staff (usually anywhere from 7 to 30 years) room to work independently, but I seem to be having a problem with transitioning people between those two dynamics. Any tips on stepping people between while still giving guidance to grow?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I note that you’re seeing only two states of learning here, “newb” and “veteran.” I’d say that four states probably apply, something like this:

      1.) You must look over the new hire’s shoulder as they work.
      2.) You must inspect the new hire’s work before they implement.
      3.) You need reports on each project but don’t need to closely supervise.
      4.) The employee knows what they’re doing, and should only ask for help
      if there is a problem.

      Obviously your style of supervision will vary for each stage. If you treat someone who is at stage 3 like they’re at state 1, it’s no wonder people are getting upset.

      Also, you might make up some kind of chart where you track their progress from newbie to veteran. The chart could list particular skills, and when you decide that someone has learned a particular skill to stage 3 level you no longer coach them? And share the chart with the employee as you supervise.

      1. lizbethfrances*

        Thanks. I was thinking of just 3 stages, and that I’m having trouble figuring out how to back off in stage 2, but the 4-part division you’ve provided is more helpful. There’s now a bit more definition in the transition, which is possibly what I needed. I’ll think through appropriate skills for each stage and try to frame it that way. Thanks again – this is a helpful rubric.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I have had similar challenges, and I can’t quite remember the details of a training I went to, but I think the gist was about moving from training to coaching to mentoring. Coaching is the middle ground where you’re letting people do their work but are still pretty actively involved.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It cannot be from one extreme [being supervised closely] to the next [working independently completely and not understood when a newly independent worker needs some assistance in decision making, etc]. It’s all about giving someone a certain amount of rope and letting it out a little more over time. Not just from the shallow end to tossing them into the deep end and assuming they’ll swim perfectly fine without being able to touch the bottom!

      Once they show they’re able to exercise good judgement, give them more room. No you don’t need to see every report that they send out first, just these more complex ones. Then you get to the point where you don’t need to see anything unless there’s a question or it’s new, etc. Once they’re essentially operating on their own, it’s time to move them on.

      It means holding someone in an entry level position for awhile longer probably, which is good for them in the long run. Nothing is worse than being promoted too soon, it feels like even a bigger failure when they start getting ugly feedback after being seen as an uprising star of the firm.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      One industry where that progression is baked in is accounting, specifically public accounting. Staff – Senior – Manager, with varying levels of engagement at each step. It’s a skill, to be able to back off but not too far, and it’s hard to balance sometimes.

  113. Ana Gram*

    Any thoughts on online HR master’s degree programs? I found a Master’s of HR Management degree at St. Francis University that looks interesting but I’m not totally sure how to decide. I work in local government now and plan to work in federal government after I retire in 5 years, so I’m using these 5 years to really work on my resume.

  114. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Last week I asked my boss if I could go long-distance remote, as I’m moving across the country for my wife to attend grad school. My boss hasn’t gotten back to me yet, but I know that if I were her, I would probably say no to me. I already work 90% from home, so remote in general isn’t the main issue, but I do have a few meetings that I’m contractually obligated to attend in person. This would mean 20 or so one-day business trips per year (literally, some of these are for me to speak for 15 minutes or not at all, but just be in attendance). I already travel around my state (California) for these, but with a few exceptions it’s a drive, rather than a flight. Travel to/from my new city is expensive, and if I didn’t do the travel my boss would have to, which I’m certain she does not want to do.

    Here’s the thing: my senior colleague, who is very much invested in me staying on, wants me to ask my grand-boss if he can find a way for me to stay, even if my boss says no. My colleague (who reports to grand-boss) says that my grand-boss is starting to become pretty dependent on me and speaks very highly of me and would really hate to lose me, especially as I’m not leaving for another opportunity, but just because of logistics. I think that’s probably true–I’m doing lots of special projects for him that my boss isn’t involved with at all (and that are entirely possible to do 100% remotely). But I don’t think there is a graceful way to bring this up to my grand-boss if my boss says there’s not a way to make it work. Likely, she will make the decision without telling grand-boss anything about it.

    Would it be a bad idea to mention to my grand-boss my move and that I’ve asked my boss to consider letting me work remotely? I don’t want my boss to feel like I’m going above her head, but I would also like to give grand-boss a heads up that he might be losing me quite soon. Is there a tactful way to approach this with grand-boss? Should I wait until I have an official decision from my boss, or mention it now, while she’s still thinking about it?

    1. boredatwork*

      I think that since you are doing a lot of special project work for grand-boss, you almost have two-bosses right now. I would look grand-boss into the plan, as a “heads up”

      “Hey Jim, just wanted to let you know that I’ll be moving to X on Y, I’ll be asking Jane if I can transition to remote work 100%, otherwise, I’ll have to turn in my resignation on X date”.

      Grandboss may want to have the conversation with Jane, with you. To work out the logistics. If you tell grandboss after Jane says no, that does strike as “going above her head” vs. looping in the other person who’s work is affected by your move.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Yes, I would definitely loop in the grand boss that you’ll be discussing this.

        The 20 meetings is pretty tough. Is there any way some of these could be Skype or Webex attendance for you? Or maybe try to condense several of them into one longer business trip?

        A lot of companies do that anyway to reduce costs at the end of the fiscal year or for austerity purposes. So, technically if you could do that it would save the company money and help your case. I think you do have a fairly decent case here for full-time remote, but you’ll have to show that your move won’t cost the company an undue amount of money to cover your job or suffer any customer service. Good luck!

        1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Unfortunately while some of them I could WebEx in for, most of them are state-required in-person attendance. And they’re big meetings with 25+ people, set up far in advance and I have zero control over scheduling. Often they are annoyingly spaced for travel reasons, like one week apart–just long enough that two trips out seems excessive, but a hotel for a week when I am needed for 2 hours on 2 days of that week seems silly.

          1. anonagain*

            Would you need to go to all those meetings if you were focused entirely on the special projects? Maybe there’s a way for you to stay on in a slightly different capacity.

            1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

              Yeah–that would be ideal! I think the downside is that *somebody* does have to go, and if they aren’t backfilling my position (the rest of which is possible to do 100% remotely), that person would have to be my boss. She’s relatively travel-averse, and the meetings are kind of below her level. I think it would also be a hard sell to make an entirely new position for the special projects, which only take about 20-30% of my time.

              1. valentine*

                Maybe keeping you and getting you a week’s hotel cost is worth her not attending the meetings.

                Grand-boss may have other work he’s been wanting to give you, future plans for you, or would be happy to create a new position for you. Give him a chance. If your colleague’s right, I think your brightest future lies with grand-boss, not with your boss.

      2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I think this is a really good way to approach it. I think I can frame it as how to transition the projects I’m working on in case I can’t stay on. I just don’t want my boss thinking that I’m going behind her back. She’s never looped in the communications I have with her boss, but I worry she’ll see it (correctly) as me lobbying her boss to stay before she’s had a chance to fully evaluate what that would mean for her department. But as long as I can frame it as “start thinking about who else could take on this work” I think I’m in safe territory.

  115. Bizzy Tizzy*

    Hello all, longtime/first time! I’m in the arts, which means I also do administrative temp work a lot. The mediocre pay is a good trade off for flexibility in my schedule to pursue other interests. I’m a great temp–I’m never late, do a good and thorough job no matter the assignment, and have called out sick once in over two years. I’ve also never backed out of an assignment until today. Recently I was confirmed for a gig that lasts five days–I confirmed it 10 days ago and the gig is 5 days from now. I just got a different offer for other work that pays much better than this temp gig and I’m…not wealthy, so I let the agency know ASAP that I was no longer available for the job next week. My POC laid a major guilt trip on me, saying that since I confirmed the gig with them already they were really counting on me, and was aggressive in trying to make me stay on. I stood firm and we left it in a place where he was clearly not happy but didn’t have much other leverage over me. My question is: was this out-of-bounds? I gave them a five-day lead time, they’re a staffing agency with access to other workers, I am not a permanent employee, and I was communicative and apologetic. I understand they might not call me for work again, and I totally accept that, but beyond that am I being an entitled jerk? What do temps owe thier agencies?

    1. boredatwork*

      On the one hand you did agree…. on the other, you’re a temp not a permanent full-time employee, this is kinda the cost of doing business as a staffing agency.

    2. L. S. Cooper*

      If they’d found a temp who could do the gig for half the pay 5 days beforehand, I bet they’d have canceled on you in a heartbeat.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      It’s not a perfect situation, that being said you went above and beyond in giving the temp agency a 5 day and your reasons are perfectly legitimate. I did admin temp staffing when I first got into recruiting and while I’d be a bit annoyed when this situation happened to me, ultimately I’d be appreciative of the 5 day(!! that’s an eternity in temp staffing time) and would understand that when it comes to temp work, 95% of the time it comes down to the dollars.

      1. Bizzy Tizzy*

        This is very good to hear from someone with staffing experience, thank you. I genuinely never want to make anyone scramble, but I’m glad I wasn’t wrong in thinking I was giving decent notice.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      You are 100 percent totally fine. I did exactly the same arts + temping thing for years. You work temp jobs for the money, not for career advancement or personal fulfillment.

      I never had a placement rep give me a hard time for taking a better offer. This guy is being a jerk. If he wanted you that bad, he could have matched the rate.

      It’s highly unlikely they’ll drop you because of this. You’re being more than reasonable. If they do, then they are purely exploitive and you can rest easy that you’re better off.

      Seriously, what is this guy thinking? You should turn down money as a personal favor to him so he doesn’t have to spend fifteen minutes calling the next interchangeable worker unit on the list?

  116. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

    It’s my 3 year anniversary at work and, hoo boy, I just put in my resignation! Onward to a better opportunity! Thatisall. Happy Friday all!

  117. TechWorker*

    Need some advice on whether I should push for promotion timelines…

    I got a promotion to project lead, technically about a year ago but I only really started having responsibility ~9 months ago. At the time the plan was for me to be promoted again to an actual manager in about a year/ I think this was even announced publically at the time.

    Since then, I’ve had a defacto demotion (an acquisition where my previous title doesn’t exist in the new structure) – though no actual demotion in terms of responsibilities. I’ve also, to be honest, struggled a *lot*. The project was in a bad state when I took over and it was underresourced for months. I burnt out and considered quitting. I’m just about coming out of the other side of that now but it’s still a struggle and we still have a long way to go before the project is in a good state. With this context I feel like I’m unlikely to get this promotion any time soon – even though I know that on a less ridiculous project I would be perfectly capable of taking that step up, the project I’m on now feels tbh too big for a newbie manager. My manager still says I’m doing good work so I don’t know whether to push the point now or just assume the previous timeline is off the table because I had months of being incredibly stressed.

    1. ATX Language Learner*

      Since the company has been acquired, it might not be an option anymore. I would wait a little or talk to your manager and see what options there are given the acquisition. The company I worked for went through a similar thing, where people were demoted but their work remained the same.

      1. TechWorker*

        I was assured during the acquisition that it wouldn’t affect promotion opportunities (and tbh my direct boss is massively over stretched so they do need another manager soonish). You’re right that what they tell me and the truth may not be the same though. I’m just worried I might have put myself out of the running for a bit because I burnt out.

  118. Violet*

    Hi, does anyone have advice for someone who is trying to make their writing less… academic?

    I completed a double major in English Literature and Sociology a few years ago and even though I had a previous job where I wrote fairly regularly, I struggled with writing on demand to a general audience. My current job requires me to write 2-3 sets of meeting minutes about every other week and I’m still struggling a bit with my writing style. I’ve been told by my boss that my writing is a bit verbose and I need to be a bit clearer about what I’m saying. we talked about it at our last check-in and as she wasn’t in the office that day, we’re going to talk about it in the next week.

    In the meantime, does anyone have tips for writing meeting minutes (during and after the meeting)? TIA

    1. Manders*

      Would it help to write notes as outlines rather than full sentences? That usually makes me way more concise.

      I don’t always love programs like the Hemingway App, but if you’re struggling with too many complex sentences they can help you spot habits you may not be aware you have.

      1. Violet*

        For one set of meeting minutes, I write them in bullet points but the others are done in full sentences (modelling them after previous minutes that were sent to me).

        Thanks for the tip about the app! I’ll check it out.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Use outline style and bullet points for meeting notes. I tend to go something like the following.

        Meeting Date:

        Topic A
        • Thing one
        • Thing two
        Action items: X, Y and Z

        Topic B
        • Thing one
        • Thing two
        Action items: X, Y and Z

    2. fposte*

      I like the outlines/bullet points idea–I think that’ll really point you to the kind of distillation you’re looking for and give you good visual cueing. Your post here doesn’t offer anything that stands out to me, but generally a hard limit on sentence length and on successive clauses can be very helpful to academics trying to be punchier. Think journalism rather than criticism.

      1. Violet*

        I should clarify that I already have the outlines/formats laid out for me. I’m talking about my writing style and being concise that way (not just through the format).

        1. fposte*

          Ah, okay. Then I think that focusing on sentence length and limiting clauses might work. From a journalistic standpoint, it’s mostly Who and What and When; Where doesn’t really apply, and Why is applied very sparingly.

          However, what might be more useful is to look online for templates and examples–I just Googled and found quite a few. That might help you map out your own notes.

    3. Me*

      Have you looked up what meeting minutes actually are?

      A lot of people try to write dictation and that’s not it. Usually it’s the topic of discussion, results of any votes and any action items/pints for follow up.

      Most local governments (think county level) have meeting minutes for their elected officials posted online. They’re a great resource as there’s a legal requirement for record keeping and making those things available. In the US anyway.

      1. Violet*

        I know what they are, and I don’t know why you’re being so rude by assuming that I don’t know what they are. I’ve written them before but the way the minutes are structured from that previous organization versus where I work now are different. And the minutes I write aren’t shared publicly, only with staff/committee members.

    4. anonymous potential future phd student*

      Oh hey there, fellow English major! Not specifically on the subject of meeting minutes, but there’s a great tool called Hemingway App (free web app) that highlights complex sentences, passive voice, etc., and may be useful for you to practice writing more clearly and concisely. It may not be feasible for you to run your meeting minutes through the tool to ferret out unnecessary complexity, but composing other items with the tool might help you get a feel for this different writing style. I’ll run stuff through it sometimes to do a very quick, visual scan of whether I have too many long sentences in a row (or other issues like that).

    5. paperpusher*

      I’m a recovering history major and I learned to love writing minutes. It’s kind of like the opposite of academic writing, where you’re trying to take dry statements of apparent fact and imbue them with meaning – with minutes, you’re taking a long, emotion-laden discussion and paring it down to the basics. Sometimes I ended up making a brief note as I wrote about how long a particular discussion went on for to compare to the final product. I loved when I could sum up 20+ minutes in a sentence. I also really enjoyed the strange challenge of saying something in the most neutral way possible when you know all the crazy personalities behind it all.

      My advice: be very clear on terminology (there’s always a bit of research required behind minute-taking, also fun for ex-liberal arts majors), use short sentences and generally begin with the main clause, avoid explanations or explaining motives, use bland verbs (stated, noted, etc.), don’t be afraid of overusing words.

      1. Violet*

        Ah, the overusing words bit is kinda what trips me up because I don’t want to sound too repetitive or limited with my vocabulary. I’ll definitely keep this in mind when I write the next set of minutes, thanks!

    6. Ali G*

      I find bullet points (especially for meeting minutes) can help reign you in. Stick to key takeaways, action items and other salient points, and don’t try to explain every detail.

    7. Sutemi*

      Consider what the minutes will be used for, and edit to meet those needs.
      In my work, the most important parts of the minutes are the decisions and action items. Those should be highlighted in some way (bold, pulled out to the top). Do you keep an action item log and/or decision log?
      Link to slide decks rather than regurgitating material. Pull key notes from slide titles. Don’t feel like you need to use complete sentences. Imagine if your minutes were subpoenaed, what content would you want them to have discovered?

    8. Syfygeek*

      I love taking minutes, I hate typing them up.

      So I made it easier on myself. I get a digital copy of the agenda, then go in and add 4 or 5 lines (1.5 or double spaced) under each topic. I also number each topic. I print this out and take it with me to the meetings. Normally any discussion can be covered in that space, but if I need more details, I go to my notebook, where I already have made notes on the date, time, attendees, etc.. I write the number of the topic and continue the notes.

      This keeps me from getting bogged down in discussions I don’t need to document, going off topic. And if my notes are brief, my minutes are concise and complete.

      1. Violet*

        My boss always sends the agenda 2 days before the meeting so I set that up with bullet points and space to write before the meeting. I have no problem with the other details as they’re in the e-mail or in the calendar invite but more of figuring out what needs to be kept and what irrelevant tangents can be skipped in the final copy. Thanks for replying, Syfygeek.

    9. BRR*

      I wish I had a specific resource but I learned to cut things down by taking a writing class with a speech writer who provided numerous examples where he cut a sentence from like 8 words to 6. Would you be able to limit your word count or page count on somethings?

    10. Anono-me*

      At one of my meetings the person running the meeting has started sending a meeting plan out before hand.
      The meeting plan has a list of potential attendees, an old business section listing all of the old business items to be covered. A new business section with all of the new business items to be covered. And her plan has room for motions and notes and who makes the motion and who seconds it Etc I would expect that you can find templates and examples online.
      Good luck

    11. Batgirl*

      So I went from an English degree straight to tabloid newswriting. So hard! I now teach a variety of professional writing styles. It can be done!

      Some exercises:
      1) Write a paragraph. Now halve it without losing any meaning. Now halve it again. Now fit it into a tweet.
      2) Call a spade a spade and not a ‘gardening implement’. Varying your vocab is fine. Being clever-clever is probably not (unless you go back into something very academic). The next time you write a paragraph underline anything that sounds more ‘gardening implement’ than spade and replace it with something one or two syllables long. As a general rule of thumb nouns can be highly repetitive in informational texts (a chef is just going to use the word ‘egg’ in a recipe all day long without a thought of a synonym) while verbs and adverbs can be almost as repetitive. It’s only really the occasional adjective where you need to spice things up with variety.

      Oh, and give yourself time.

  119. Bortus*

    I work in a small office (20 people) and manage one admin who handles stuff for the entire company as well as AR/AP. She recently told me she was pregnant and due right at year end. She asked me not to tell anyone until she passed the three month mark (she’s very early pregnant) but I feel like I need to let my boss (the CEO) in on it since it will for sure impact our production. Thoughts?

    2. Ranon*

      Six months is hopefully still plenty of time to handle planning (and presumably there’s only a difference between now and then of what, six weeks max?) I would wait, the potential for harming your relationship with her is probably higher than any advantage you’d get from the extra planning time

    3. Alianora*

      Nope, don’t tell. It’s still really early and it’s also her personal decision. You can maybe start thinking about how to plan for her leave on your own now, but it would be overstepping (a lot) to tell the CEO when she specifically asked you not to.

    4. Peaches*

      Don’t tell him. She specifically told you not to tell anyone. Please do not break her trust for the sake of her pregnancy impacting your production. You should still have plenty of time to transition to a new employee even if she handles a lot of stuff. 6 months is a really long time.

    5. Me*

      If she’s the only person that does something and there’s no plans to deal with her being unavailable for an extended time, regardless of pregnancy that is a problem.

      Do not disclose her business.

      Do look at your operations and develop a plan for any role that if someone had a piano fall from the sky on them and took them out there’s no one that can take over the duties in a way to keep the company functional.

    6. Bortus*

      Seems pretty much in line with my gut then. Normally I’m the person that backfills her position other than at year end due to the workload. Yes if she got hit by a bus at year end, we would manage but… :P

    7. Anono-me*

      The advice everyone’s given so far about not telling is very good. I would like to point out that in addition to risking damage to your relationship with her; you also risk damaging your reputation with your coworkers if you share this.

      To be clear there are times when things have to be shared that were told in confidence. But this isn’t one of them.

  120. Environmental Compliance*

    Feeling a little rough this week. In essence, after a noncompliance event resulting in a violation, I discovered that it was due to one of our field operations staff falsifying internal documents & not actually doing the work they were required to do. So, this individual got fired.

    I feel badly about it, but at the same time….don’t falsify internal (or external) compliance documents. Apparently they were having a tough time at home, but… why didn’t their supervisor gently point them towards the EAP we have? Why bring that up to me now? I’m not making the firing decision. My entire job is compliance. We went out. I need to investigate why, and report back. I had several people check the footage with me. I don’t supervise this person, or actually anyone. I have no direct reports.

    So I suppose that I feel icky about it because this is a crappy thing to have happen in one’s life, and that if the supervisor noticed that the individual was possibly in need of some help and did nothing, that’s even cruddier…but also a bit irritated that said supervisor has to tell me after the fact as if I can do something with that information? It would affect some decision that I’m not part of?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think you’re overthinking this. You didn’t do anything wrong. They did. They made a choice, now they have to accept the consequences. It’s not your fault that those consequences are bad.

      I’m an auditor. There have been several instances when people were fired because of what I found in my audit. It’s part of the job sometimes. My response has been that I need to make sure my work is solid. As long as I know I did a good job and got the right conclusions, then it’s not on me.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I know. I’m a bit disappointed with their supervisor…if you know your employee is going through some tough times, why not send them info for the EAP? why ignore it until oh look, it’s impacting their work (over several instances over several days), well, that sucks.

        It probably didn’t help that another field staff came up to me and said well, now we allll know not to mess with EC. (He’s a bit of a butt in general.)

  121. Formerly Arlington*

    I just posted an entry-level position and am getting lots of mid-level applicants. The job could be done with someone with more experience, but the pay is not high. I don’t know if I should interview some of these mid-level applicants…anyway? I saw one who is currently a food server and therefore I’m assuming between gigs at the corporate level and might be OK with a role that’s lower paying but in his field? It’s hard to figure out who to weed out, especially when there are plenty of people who have this skill set and the issue is just our budget!

    1. Rainy days*

      Did you disclose the salary range up front? If so, then I think you’re fine to at least do phone screenings with people who have more experience than you’re expecting. If you didn’t disclose the salary range, that’s a problem for multiple reasons, including that you’re attracting overqualified applicants who may not take the job after goinig through a lengthy hiring process.

      I hire paid interns every summer, with the stipend listed in the ad, and I’ve gotten applicants with MAs and even Ph.Ds when the minimum requirement is to have completed 2 years of college. Some end up being a good fit and a real asset due to age and experience, others come off as entitled and not open to taking direction because they think they already know it all. It really depends on the person and their reason for wanting to accept a lower-level position.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        I didn’t display the salary, but the applicants (this is through Ziprecruiter) have salary requests and there are quite a few who are asking for within range amounts. Thanks for the feedback on that.

        1. Rainy days*

          Yes, it may be too late this time, but next time you post a job, I can’t recommend strongly enough to disclose the salary up front. It’s really freeing for me as the hiring manager because I can move forward with any suitable applicant knowing that we’re on the same page, and it’s much fairer to applicants too.

    2. Kathenus*

      When I’ve gotten those applicants, if there are some that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out for an informal conversation about some of the job details (including salary range if we weren’t allowed to disclose that in the posting) and then ask them to let me know if they’re still interested in being considered now that they have more details about the position.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Are you planning to do phone screens? That’s the right place to do some gentle probing about why they’re interested in the job, and to disclose the things that might make it a non-starter for some folks (the salary, any undesirable work that’s required) so they can self-select out.

  122. Ugh*

    My petty, burned out, and unhelpful boss is pregnant, and her surprise baby shower is next month. She is the biggest source of stress in my life and I am quite resentful of the amount of emotional labor I have spent on her this year.
    I am missing the shower because they scheduled it on a day I was already out of the office. Her petty friend in the office has asked for contributions towards the cost, and we have a culture of people pitching in, manager or not.

    Do I have to give money or food to a party I won’t attend for a person I don’t like?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I don’t think you need to feel obligated to pitch in anything if you won’t be there. Perhaps leave a card?

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I don’t think you need to give anything even if you were going in person. Just a simple “it’s not in my budget, sorry!” should be fine.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      You don’t HAVE to, but of course it depends on whether you trust her petty friend not to say anything to her, and whether she’s mature enough not to take it out on you if petty friend talks.

      1. Ugh*

        Yeah, see, this is where the stress comes in. I think petty friend WILL talk. And I feel like I’m always on the defensive about m spot here even though my work is excellent and my clients like me a lot.

        I can’t wait until she goes on maternity leave.

        1. valentine*

          I think they will be petty about whatever you do. Food? It’s her’s fifth least-favorite! What do you mean, you didn’t know?! Money? Not enough. Where does it all go?/Too much. Showoff.

          If there’s no obvious path of least harm for you, do nothing. (Unless there’s a card to sign.)

          1. Ugh*

            this is really helpful, thank you. and reminding me the problem here isn’t me, but how ungracious they are about whatever they receive.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      You don’t have to, but if you’re not leaving your job soon, you might want to think about the politics. Can you get yourself to make a gesture of some kind? Food or a card would be better than money, because the petty friend would know and judge how much money you gave. If you just can’t do it, don’t.
      Sorry about the job.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I think this is one where you can “forget” to have cash on you until it blows over.

  123. "Senior" Admin*

    How do I push back when my promotion was delayed do to a ‘clerical error” and “missed cycle”?

    I’m a contractor and when our contract was reawarded this year I was told by my program manager that I had exceeded expectations and that I had been doing senior level work (my title is a mid) and he was going to do the paperwork once the contract was finalized to promote me to a senior level position. However I have just been told that since 40+ employees all had their reviews done at the same time my PM ‘forgot’ to sumbit my promotion paperwork and I had only gotten the base standard or living raise. When I brought this up to him he apologized profusely and told me that I would have to wait for my promotion until the next ‘cycle’ which is the time period they are ‘allowed’ to put this kind of paperwork in. Yet, they want me to continue to do SR level work for an undisclosed amount of time before I’ll actually get promoted and there are some HUGE project coming up that they expect me to lead. I love my job and I have no intention of leaving but I’m upset that I’m paying for the mistake of my PM and missing out on the pay/perks for the position I should be in. How do I push back on this?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      “I’ve decided to seek other opportunities and would like your help with a transition plan.”

    2. LaDeeDa*

      That sounds like BS. It sounds like he promised you something before getting it approved. Many companies have a forced distribution for performance ratings and a certain % for raises above the standard cost of living raises- it really sounds to me like he promised you something before that phase of performance review was completed. I wouldn’t be surprised if your rating has been changed from “exceeds” to “successfully meets” (or whatever their terminology is.)
      If it was really what he says it is he could go to HR and get it fixed, I have no doubt.
      The only thing you could do is just tell him that you would like to speak to HR with him and that since it is a mistake– since your review clearly states that you exceeded expectations, surely they could correct it. If you have a signed copy of your performance review showing your higher performance raiting, and anything with a promise for a raise– you have some leverage. But if it was just verbal… there won’t be much you can do.
      It really sucks, and his manager should be speaking to him– because if it was a mistake as he says or if it is that he promised something before getting approved- he messed up.

    3. Kathenus*

      ‘Project manager, I understand that a promotion can’t be submitted until the next cycle to make me a senior level consultant. I’m happy to continue working at current level consultant until that is able to be processed.’ Then if you’re asked to do SR level work, politely say that this work is for a SR level consultant not a current level consultant. Not sure if it’ll work, and you’d need to be really professional and matter of fact, versus snarky, but it’s worth a try.

    4. "Senior" Admin*

      In-progress but hopefully happy ending soon. I spoke to both of my PMs and it was agreed upon that I shouldn’t be facing the ramifications of his mistake and that he would submit the request for my promotion with HR and explain why it was happening out of cycle.

      I have a feeling it’s a combination of him honestly feeling bad and our customer (who I work directly for) pressuring them to promote me. All in all I’m glad I stood up for myself. Thankfully my PMs are both reasonable people and understood my concerns and are now correcting their mistakes with HR instead of taking the easy way and making me wait. :)

  124. Tired Epidemiologist*

    I just need to vent my frustration with a job that I love.

    I’m working on a measles outbreak response as a civil servant. I’m one of a few programmers producing reports, and the only one for my subgroup. I’m. so. tired. The first 2 weeks involved daily 10AM meetings. Now it’s a few times a week. Today I have several hour long meetings two of which fell over previously planned events (one of which is lunchtime yoga, which keeps me sane). On top of that my normal department needed me to whip up slides for one of my sidelined projects for a meeting with federal agencies.

    I think once they rotate me off I’m going to schedule some PTO-summer fridays.

    1. Lilysparrow*

      I’m sorry you are under so much pressure. Thank you for the very important work you’re doing.

      It’s appalling that this is even an issue, but here we are.

  125. Shades of Blue*

    Facebook – The New York Times – 1 min ago

    “Columnist Alison Green asked reasders of her ‘Ask A Manager’ website to share their salary….3 weeks later, she had more than 26,000 responses.” Aye, I was one of those 26K :)

    Ooooooo, go Alison!

    1. Loux in Canada*

      Oh crap, I wanted to do that but I only read AAM at work and the servers block the survey site she used, then I forgot whenever I was at home. Oopsies.

  126. Dodged a Bullet*

    I recently went through a rather stressful job search full of many rejections, after being laid off from the job I’d had for almost a decade. One company that interviewed and rejected me was recently raided by the FBI for questionable billing practices. The company has now suspended part of their business sales.

    I didn’t appreciate it at the time, but it looks like being rejected by them was a blessing in disguise!

    1. Me*

      I have found that every time I’ve been rejected it 100% turned out to be the right thing. Nothing that extreme though!

  127. Loux in Canada*

    Well, I’m 2 hours away from finishing my first week in my new job! (I moved divisions within the same company, and got a promotion to boot.) It’s pretty different from what I was doing before – lots of new procedures and steps, and the performance metrics are totally different too. The training is mostly self-directed – it’s like, here, have this huge manual (online) on this topic, and then we will have someone walk you through some files. So, honestly, it’s better than my last position where I was in a training room, bored to death, for like five weeks because I can’t focus when someone is lecturing, and I like learning at my own pace (although a lot of my former coworkers have expressed some degree of shock or horror about the training method here :P).

    Plus, honestly, my new coworkers are all pretty nice and supportive. I’m one of the youngest on my team (not in the department, though – there’s a couple people in another team who are younger). I was worried about that but I think it will be just fine. Woo! Positivity. Now it needs to be the end of the day so I can go home and sleep, because my brain is melting out of my ears from all the reading I’ve done this week. :P

  128. CatCat*

    I feel bad for my spouse. He’s been at his new job for almost a month and it’s been problematic. Like so:
    – Employer moved his start date back by a week. Didn’t actually tell him until he came in on the original start date (and obviously had worked out notice at his prior job).
    – Keep changing his schedule with little/no notice. Latest change means our days off are no longer aligned.
    – In the first two weeks, we had a tragic emergency at home. True emergency, unexpected, could not be helped. He had to miss a day because of it. Boss “warned” him for taking a day without having any PTO yet and that a second warning would result in a PIP. (!!!!)

    Sucks because he had high hopes going in, but now it’s already “just a job” type job to pay the bills until he moves onto something better. Bummer.

    1. Peaches*

      Does his boss know the circumstances of the emergency at home?

      That’s so frustrating either way. I’m sorry you guys are dealing with this.

      1. CatCat*

        Does his boss know the circumstances of the emergency at home?

        ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ When you call out, you have to leave a message, which my husband did explaining. Not sure who actually listens to those messages. Boss certainly did not ask why Spouse was out that day.

  129. Peaches*

    I know I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to give an update on my coworker. After being MIA last Thursday and Friday (supposedly working offsite, but not responding to any calls or emails until Friday), she DID in fact show up on Monday.

    Because of the huge error she made on Project 1 that resulted from not following directions, she now has mountains of work that she is behind on. Many of our account managers (whom she primarily works with), are angry at her for missing deadlines that they gave to her long ago. To be clear, this isn’t a case of “having too high of expectations for the new girl”; it’s not like a ridiculous amount of work was given to her all at once. She’s just behind because of trying to do things her own way on every project she’s given, and her own way not working.

    Also, she’s out of the office today. It’s weird, because she’s been working on Project 2 for one of our account managers that was given to her three weeks ago. He gave her a due date of today. It was a tedious, but easy project that should have taken her about two or three days. Yesterday, she came to me in a panic because she’s only halfway done with the Project 2, and “account manager wants it by tomorrow.” I let her know it was still reasonable to get it done by tomorrow, and she would try her best to get it done by the end of the day today. Well, 2:30 rolls around yesterday (our office hours are 7:30-4:30) and she leaves, on her way out saying, “well, I’m out tomorrow, have a good weekend!”

    The account manager comes in this morning looking for an update on Project 2, having no idea that new coworker is out of the office. New Coworker’s boss overhears the account manager asking where she is, and tell him, “oh, she’s off today because she had so much overtime this week.” That is MOST DEFINITELY not true. She’s come in at about 7:45 each morning this week, and left at 4:30 with the rest of us. The only day she was offsite this week was Monday, and she was ONLY offsite because she had to go fix her errors on Project 1 that she screwed up on (it’s also not possible that she got overtime of that day, because her time offsite was spent at elementary schools, and the hours of school in the area are 8AM-3PM). Even if she had somehow gotten overtime that day, she obviously didn’t get enough OT to leave 2 hours early yesterday, and take 8 hours off today.

    On top of that, our company does not have OT restrictions. She had a project to finish, and she failed to do so by taking the day off “because she had overtime”.

    As you can tell, I am more than fed up with her, and don’t understand why she hasn’t been let go…she’s still in her probation period with the staffing agency we use, but I’m not sure when that will be up.

    1. CatCat*

      This is so fascinating. New Coworker’s Boss is super failing to monitor her here. I’m shocked she made it through the week with job intact.

      Also, you mention a staffing agency. Is she a temp? Seems like that makes this super easy to solve. “Staffing Agency, we don’t need New Coworker anymore.”

      And yet… she’s still there.

      Can’t wait for next week’s update!

      1. Peaches*

        Yes, I supposed technically she’s a temp since she is being paid by the staffing agency for her first 90 days. However, this is a position that we need someone long term, so I wish they’d just let her go know if they’re going to let her go so that we can find someone else! I’d be super frustrated if they waited until the end of the 90 days to fire her.

        Also, yes, her boss is totally missing the mark on monitoring her. He’s fairly new to our company (about 1 year) AND new to being a manager. He can be seen as a little flighty at times.

        1. valentine*

          What if they make her permanent?

          If it affects your job (apart from her glomming onto you, which you can tell her to stop) and it’s appropriate for you to weigh in, this is the time to lay it all out there. But isn’t it possible there’s an arrangement you don’t know about, like her boss lets her work from home?

    2. Ama*

      So I had to have a serious talk with my direct report about time management just this morning, after she left all work on a massive and time-sensitive project until yesterday’s due date, when we had been talking for two weeks about what parts she could go ahead and do (there’s a segment of this that is never ready until the last minute, but 80% of it could have been done a week ago). If for some reason your company still refuses to fire her (which honestly I don’t see how we’re not in the vicinity of time card fraud at this point, given that she’s claiming to be working but you can’t verify that she actually has been), the focus should be on time management — she’s not meeting deadlines and that’s a serious problem.

      But yeah, I don’t see why she hasn’t been fired. At least my direct report 1)actually met the deadline even if I’m not thrilled about how she got there, and 2)has a history of good performance in other areas before this incident.

    3. Myrin*

      Wouldn’t the boss be able (or even need) to monitor her overtime? It sounds like she just walked up to him and informed him that she’s accumulated so much overtime to be able to take off a whole day and he just… let her? Without even asking When and How?

      Aside from that: Do you happen to know if anyone of the numerous people affected by her behaviour has actually brought it up with her boss? Or is he completely in the dark?

  130. Breezy*

    Hi everyone! I’ve been reading here for years and have never commented, and I’m surprisingly nervous to be doing so now!

    I’ve been interested in transitioning to some sort of work from home work while finishing up my graduate degree and am curious to see if anyone has suggestions of how to vet real opportunities from the less reputable ones?

    A recruiter recently reached out to me about a remote position that frankly just sounds too good to be true! The company is one that I recognize, but I’m not sure where to begin when it comes to vetting it after that. I just don’t want to end up falling for a scam remote position or company. Any advice or tips would be appreciated!

    1. 1234*

      If they ask you to pay for anything, it’s most likely a scam. I would interview but have my guard up.

      1. Mephyle*

        Fellow freelancers in my industry have been reporting a scam like this recently. The company name is familiar, but the recruiter is a scammer, and does not actually represent the company. One of the companies whose name is being invoked in this scam is a large, well-known publisher.

    2. Rust1783*

      This may be unhelpful advice, but do you have a network of friends or colleagues who might have a more direct lead on a specific opportunity? There are an awful lot of scams, and there are an awful lot of freelance situations that aren’t scams exactly but aren’t great gigs. I was in a similar situation in grad school and I ended up with a gig as a content writer for a major online retailer but the time vs the money I made was super out of balance. Consider talking to your network or even your school to see if they have ideas. Random recruiters, stuff posted on craigslist, etc are a bit of a danger zone, as you recognize.

  131. In the rain*

    Fun fact: If you are a full time employee and you drop below 30 hours, your employer is allowed to cancel your insurance without telling you! Apparently, even if they offer insurance to their part time people.

    Just learned that this morning. We were dropped from my husband’s insurance last May and did not find out until October when some medical claims were kicked back.

    Because of this, we likely have no recourse and will not be able to be retroactively insured, which we have been working on since learning what happened.

    Best part, I am on the hook for thousands thanks to an unavoidable trip to the emergency room in December for what could have been an ectopic pregnancy. In fact, found out yesterday I was just turned over to collections for a bill I did not even know I had!

    Found out too late my State will insure uninsured pregnant women. Of course because I was in the hospital miscarrying, according to the rules (apparently) I no longer had a sustainable pregnancy, so again not covered. Husband’s last pay check did not even cover the rent, but we make too much to otherwise qualify for charity.

    Had to file an extension for my taxes, so on top of all this I am looking forward to the uninsured penalty.

    A tragedy of errors. And the agency wonders why we don’t feel particularly loyal.

    1. Rust1783*

      When people react to the notion of medicare for all by saying “but what about people who love their private/employer-sponsored/etc insurance companies?” I am so baffled. Who are these people who love their private insurance providers? Who loves having to deal with the stupid games that the providers, or employers, or whoever, can play?

    3. Natalie*

      For the benefit of anyone else that’s panicking, if your employer is large enough that they are covered by COBRA (20 employers or more), they are required to inform you of plan cancellation as you have to be notified of your COBRA continuation coverage rights. in the rain, if your employer happens to be COBRA covered you may want to look at filing a complaint with the Department of Labor.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Call the hospital collections and see if you can get on a payment plan. Most hospitals will work with you on this; you just have to talk to them. And I’m sorry about your loss.

      1. valentine*

        And if they have financial aid, apply for it.

        Make sure you really have to pay the uninsured penalty before you pay it. (Any chance the company will pay it or any of the other expenses?) I don’t see how you were meant to know you were dropped, though I guess they can say you’re obliged to ask for an explanation of each paystub.

    5. WellRed*

      You should have received something in the mail about the cancellation from the insurer.

      1. WellRed*

        Uh, not that that helps now. Did he pay anything for insurance? Was it still being deducted from his check?

        1. In the rain*

          We aren’t sure. It is a tangled web of deductions, and a next to impossible to read pay stub. Even the specialist who is trying to help us figure it out is having trouble with our case.

          I hope it comes out they were deducting, so we can make our case. I am a little hopeful that we weren’t notified about COBRA because we weren’t supposed to be dropped, that they will acknowledge the mistake which then can be fixed.

  132. So Stressed at Work My Ulcers are Flaring Up*

    So I write a weekly newsletter for my job (which is a rant completely within itself because I spend 20 hours a week on it and no one reads anything)

    Can someone tell me if this email:
    “I would like to again mention that I would greatly appreciate having all articles sent to me by 5:00 on Wednesday at the latest unless there is breaking news.”
    that I sent to my boss comes across as “scolding”?

    I just got yelled at for 15 minutes by my boss because it sounded like I was “scolding him like a child.” Keep in mind, the 5:00 deadline is something that he agreed to in the past and had previously said that he was happy that I was taking the newsletter into my control.

    1. So Stressed at Work My Ulcers are Flaring Up*

      Also to note, the article that he wanted me to write is about what our members should do in case of a specific natural disaster (the natural disaster doesn’t occur in our state, especially never in May0

      1. valentine*

        Not scolding but definitely fed up and rising. Does he even submit things? Isn’t it directed at colleagues? I hope you can get away from this newsletter-obsessed weirdo.

        If your handle is accurate, how about medical leave?

    2. L. S. Cooper*

      Absolutely reasonable, and the sort of thing that I’ve been encouraged to send out to get people to send me their stuff on time. Scolding? Maybe a bit, but they wouldn’t be getting scolded if they would send me their slides and their surveys!

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I’m afraid it could be read with a little bit of a tone, but that doesn’t excuse your boss yelling at you about it!

    4. So Stressed at Work My Ulcers are Flaring Up*

      I would agree that it could come off as “scolding” (although I doubt he would have used that word if the email had come from a man). I repeatedly tried to say while he was yelling at me “I am sorry if that is the way that my message came across, that was absolutely not my intention” and he just kept going back to saying I was “scolding him like a child” (he said that probably 5 separate times)

      2. CM*

        Next time, don’t apologize. Scold him for scolding you for scolding him.

        In all seriousness, though, it doesn’t actually matter whether the email had a scolding tone, because, even if it did, that wouldn’t make it okay for him to scream at you about it.

  133. LaDeeDa*

    My boss is awful. She just shifted a person who reported to her, to now report to me. She 100% did it for 2 reasons; 1. She doesn’t like him and 2. He isn’t performing and she doesn’t want to deal with it. Sigh.
    I have suspected for the last few months that he is working another job- we all work remote, so it would be easy to disguise it if he got another remote job.
    She has let his poor performance go on for so long, that I won’t be able to let him go right away– she hasn’t addressed any of his missed deadlines over the last year. So I am going to have to create a list of work/deadlines for him and start documenting from scratch. She didn’t document anything and didn’t have any performance conversations with him.
    The worst of it is, I really like him, and he was a fantastic employee until we had a re-org and she became our boss. Maybe if he doesn’t have another job he will start performing with me as his manager– we have always had a good realtionship, and I am qualified to be his manager, when our current boss is not.
    UGGG.

  134. Abigail Marshall*

    How do I write a resume when I’ve been working for my husband for the last ten years? I’m basically an admin assistant for his contracting business, but it’s all very unofficial. Now that our kids are in school I would like to find an outside job as an admin assistant/receptionist/secretary/data entry… I just need a job, and I’m experienced and good at support roles. I have no idea how to present my experience, or who to list as references.

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      Does anyone else work there who could speak to your competence? This experience is relevant since it’s the same skills you’re looking to use at your next job

      1. Abigail Marshall*

        It’s only a 6 person business, and the only other employees are the work crew. They know me as the lady who cuts the checks, brings lunch, and refills the first aid kits. They don’t know anything about 98% of the work I do. In fact, not even my husband really knows what I do, because if I do it right, nothing happens!

        I’m sure any of the crewmen would be happy to vouch for me, and technically they are my “coworkers”, but it doesn’t seem right. I mean, wouldn’t you feel weird giving a reference for your bosses wife? What if she didn’t get the job and blamed you? Not that I would do that, but it doesn’t seem fair to put that on the employee.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Are there any clients or vendors that could speak to your work?

      I think you should look at this more as, “I worked for myself, in my own business,” than “I was an employee of my husband.” Even though you were working in your husband’s business, you have the same problem that an entrepreneur would have: no boss or coworkers to vouch for your job duties or skills. That will help you identify extra people who might be able to serve as references. Don’t let the fact that you got your job by being married to the boss overshadow the work you did.

  135. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    “There is no one at your rank with more potential than you.”
    “We have never seen anyone develop as much as you have in a few months.”
    My boss was more proud than I’ve ever seen her before.
    “I think it’s because you’ve opened up about your ADHD,” she said. “Do you agree?”

    Fair warning: I’m just here to boast.

    The above is a direct quote from my boss during my yearly review today.
    When I got diagnosed with ADHD two years ago, I was told to absolutely, under no circumstances, tell my job about it. The stigma was too great, and it was a stupid risk to take.

    Since then with the help of medication, I’ve put in a solid performance but struggle with “low level” skills that require executive function like setting my own deadlines, estimating how long something will take, communicating clearly… My managers have even been rather confused about why I shone in sales and coaching and other “senior skills” and last fall, I knew I had to explain the real reason for that. My boss was wonderfully supportive and heartbroken I hadn’t felt I could tell her.

    I started a new project at work in February and decided to “go all the way” – I told the entire team about my ADHD, about the things I struggle with, about how I need time to recharge and work in waves. How I can’t sit in the same room as them if I have to get stuff done. All those minor quirks I’ve been trying to hide.

    Since then, in just 3 months, I’ve gone from decent worker to rising star. Everyone, me included, are blown away by the difference. Being able to work the way that suits me best, to ask for what I need instead of feeling ashamed is amazing. But most of all, I’m able to admit and ask for help with the things I struggle with instead of pretending and feeling like a failure. For my project manager to tirelessly help me calibrate my “priority compass” and my “time sense” without judging me for them.

    It’s a tiny difference, but it has made all the difference. It’s okay to grow slow, and I’m about to bloom.

    2. twog*

      this is awesome!

      As someone who has just received an ADHD diagnosis last year (in my 42nd year of life!) — I’d like to ask if you have any resources/reading that you can share.

      I’m still trying to figure out what of my “shortcomings” are ADHD related and how to address them.

      (I to struggle with my own deadlines, estimating how long something will take and communicating clearly — and didn’t realize that all of those are ADHD related)

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I have to go to bed but I’ll come back to you tomorrow.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      *applause*

      Trying to fake it or force yourself to be someone you are not, takes a huge amount of energy and work. It’s great that you were able to disclose and free up that energy to apply to your goals instead!

    4. Raia*

      This is awesome, congrats! I do not have ADHD, but I am one month in to a new role where I will be setting my own project deadlines for the first time in my career. How are you doing it?

  136. Laszlo Whitaker*

    I started a new job a few months ago in a department of four. Now one person is leaving for a new job, another is retiring within a year, and our manager is going to be out on intermittent medical leave for the next few months. I’ve been slowly getting a handle on my own workload, but I don’t feel at all prepared for helping to cover for others!

  137. Lara*

    I’ve been given conflicting advice, so I need your expertise, please! What tense should your resume be in, past or present? Usually, I use past tense but my S.O. thinks it should be in present. A friend of mine says to use present tense for your current employment and past for former history. I’m starting to apply again and am afraid of hurting my chances if my resume is incorrect.

    1. Me*

      My past work is in past tense. My current job in present tense. I’ve never not gotten an interview because of it.

      It would be weird to me to list past work in the present tense.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I agree with your friend. Past tense for former jobs because that’s all stuff you used to do and are no longer doing; present tense for things you are doing…presently :)

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Past tense for past work, present tense for current work. Always, I have never seen it any other way and it would be weird to list past job in the present tense.

      1. Lara*

        Thank you so much for the help! My newly revised resume is present tense for my current job and past for the rest.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since your resume should be discussing accomplishments, I would say past tense, unless it’s something that’s in progress and has potential impact.

  138. Anon 9*

    How do you know what salary you should ask for (either in your current role or when changing jobs) when your career has been as a fluid ‘jack of all trades’? I’ve spent about 10 years working in nonprofits in primarily administrative roles with progressively more responsibilities, ie Executive Assistant, Administrative Coordinator, Operations Manager…Many of these roles included supervisory duties and had a fairly wide variety of tasks (both higher level and lower level). In my current role, I have a smorgasbord of duties, from overseeing regional offices and planning all staff events to HR duties such as interviewing and onboarding/training new employees. I’m flexible and am familiar with a wide range of our work, but I can’t seem to translate all this into additional pay. Bottom line: I can’t tell if I’m being underpaid currently or not, and if so I’m not sure if there’s a way to prove my ‘market value’ in this type of role. I sincerely appreciate all thoughts/suggestions!!

    1. Anon 9*

      Also for additional context – I’m finding this type of background (with a range of titles and responsibilities) is making job searching a lot less straightforward in general. So even when I find a position where the title and type of work sounds like something I could excel at, when a salary range isn’t included in the posting I’m not sure what to say in response to ‘include your desired salary’ since I’m not clear what my current job or this type of job is ‘supposed’ to pay.

      Thanks all/anyone :)

  139. It's Not Easy Being*

    Gonna grab some pizza tonight as a reward to past-me for being really good at keeping a “work diary.” Boss is in a manic micromanaging state and claimed I hadn’t done several things. Thanks to my daily entries, I was not only able to point out when and where they were done but also find the emails referencing where I had let her know these things. Now if only I could keep her and the other problem person from throwing me under the bus so often…

    1. LaDeeDa*

      That’s awesome. I keep detailed notes and files too, I have been thrown under the bus one too many times not to.
      How does she respond when you produce the evidence?

  140. Pennalynn Lott*

    I asked last week about taking a job with good people and low(er) pay or a job with so-so people and ridiculously high pay.

    Turns out the high-paying job actually has good people, and the lower paying job has so-so people!

    I will be starting the high-paying job on Monday, June 3. :-)

  141. CityLawyer*

    Lawyers or ex lawyers of AMA-
    Would love to hear about your experiences about working in big law. Did you love it? Hate it? Why? I am doing transactional work at a typical ‘biglaw’ firm in a big city and dislike it so much more than I thought I would (1st year associate). The work feels quite meaningless (mostly pushing around papers), and I was prepared for long hours but not the unpredictability (as in – I expected to fairly consistently work until late with the odd late night, but work (well) past midnight on a pretty regular basis). And as a first year there seems to be so little regard for my time and a lot of inefficiencies in how work is being managed (this is my second career – work was handled much more efficiently in my previous career). All these factors make me feel super anxious. I’m not sure if I should transition back to my old career? Look for a job that has a bit of both? Or stick it out? If anybody reading this was in a similar position and stuck it out for a few years – did it get better?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I started my career in BigLaw, switched to Not Quite As BigLaw, then MediumLaw, then in-house. Here’s the thing — law firms have wildly different cultures. I hated, hated hated my first firm — everything you describe and more. I thought it was law itself, but after I burned out, took a break and went to Not Quite As BigLaw, I could see that it wasn’t big law that was the problem, it was the culture of that specific firm. You might be a lot happier in a medium sized firm.

  142. Toxic waste*

    Another development in toxic workplace: New evil boss has started to make comments like, “A,B,C needs to be fixed. Yesterday you made mistakes X,Y,Z ..”

    I don’t know if she has a list or is keeping count!

    Then, we’re having a system upgrade, so we will have a meeting on what to do during that time. (It’s at the end of the day- so she’s basically managing the last 90 minutes of the day… Seriously?)

    Besides finding a new job, is there a way to remedy this? To get her to chill out/back off?

    1. bone camarrow*

      It seems like your boss’s job to tell you when things need to be fixed or when you’ve made mistakes, or to prepare you for a system upgrade. Am I missing something..?

  143. Me--Blargh!*

    /rant

    I found a job that sounded perfect, in an area I would totally move to (blue state! blue state!). But when I did my due diligence, I discovered so many red flags it was not even funny.

    1. Job in one place; headquarters location in another. Okay, fine, BUT:
    2. Company is apparently based in India, not where the headquarters location on their website said it was. Meaning, they left it off that they’re based in India.
    3. The small amount of Glassdoor reviews indicated multiple freelancers, although the job was listed as full-time. They were all either really good or really bad. The really bad ones said For God’s sake, stay away; you won’t get paid.

    *sigh*

    To top it off, LitReactor emailed me a promotion for a worldbuilding class that starts next week that would be really useful for Books 2 and 3 of my trilogy. They have good classes; I took the short story one when I was working and produced the pirate ship story in my ebook. I’m really proud of that story; I think it’s the best one in there. It’s not that much, but I cannot afford it. (I know LR didn’t do that at me, but it feels terrible all the same.)

    I think I got a really good cover letter out of the job listing–I saved it and can mine it for something else. If there is anything else. I’m beginning to wonder. Recent apps to jobs I’m very qualified for have gone into a black hole, never to return. I feel like punching something!

    /rant over

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I’ve been looking–I have a search set up for that. So far, most of them are in marketing and want years of copyediting experience and/or a marketing degree before you even set foot in the door. The technical editing jobs want you to be an aerospace/military/pharmaceutical/biology/coding expert, even the junior ones.

          Nothing is truly remote, either–they want someone local so they can “come into the office for meetings.” Dude, wtf. Have you not heard of conference calling or WebEx? Sheesh. I never even met most of my coworkers at Exjob; only three people were local to me and the rest were all out of state. I wouldn’t mind moving (!!!), but the salaries are absurdly low in very high-COL areas.

          I’ve tried applying to the ones for which I could reasonably be in the running; you never know.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            Have you tried looking specifically for roles at distributed companies? Those should be truly remote, unless you happen to live in the one city where they maybe have one office because of an abundance of employees there.

  144. Just Call Me Jill*

    I need some advice. My workplace has a toxic director who runs a few departments. He has also recently announced he is resigning and has 3 weeks left at our company (important for later).
    One of his employees came to me for help regarding a data collection issue in the system. I helped her through it (this is in my scope and I was the better “boss” to ask) and figured that would be the end of it. Nope.
    During the five minutes in my office, she showed me that the issue she was having could be fixed by a simple process change. It seemed like a good solution, so I suggested she run it by Director. Apparently, she has tried in the past and Director shot her down. I told her that, unfortunately, it’s a dead end for now and to think about revisiting the issue after Director has left.
    Here’s the problem. I think this employee took what I said, ran with it, and was overheard by Director. Minutes later, Director calls me, enraged, accusing this employee of trying to “poison the well” re: data collection and that he demands to know every single thing employee said. I told him she had a question re: data entry, mentioned the data collection issue and that it has been brought to his attention before—nothing nefarious.
    Director has a habit of interrogating and hard-pressing his employees (often times even lying) in an effort to get answers from his employees that support his narrative. I think I was used as a pawn this time to get his employee to “come clean” about her “poisoning the well.” Employee has since threatened me, in front of other employees, to “never put [my] words in [her] mouth again.” Thing is, I didn’t.
    Do I need to speak to this employee about this? Should I wait for Director to leave to talk to her? I need to continue to be able to work with this employee after Director leaves and really don’t know how to approach it.

    1. Anon 9*

      Honestly I’d wait until the Director leaves and can’t stir up further drama. It sounds like he’s actively making situations worse and confusing/concerning your coworker unnecessarily. You can be extremely polite and helpful to the coworker over the next few weeks to hopefully smooth things over, but otherwise I’d lay low until this toxic director is out.

      1. Just Call Me Jill*

        My approach so far has been to let the employee know (after that weird confrontation) that I’m here to talk when she’s ready, as well as staying so very, very far away from Director’s departments.

        It’s a little sad, but 99% of the company is so excited for him to leave. This is situation is only a grain of sand on his “how to be a total ass” highlight reel.

    2. CM*

      I would also wait for him to leave. If he hadn’t announced he was going, it would be a different story, but, because you only have to wait it out for a few weeks, I’d just do that and then maybe people can talk a little bit more openly about how he was a problematic person who turned people against each other. If you did that now, you’d risk repeating the same game of telephone again, and it doesn’t seem worth it.

  145. I'm leaving a toxic work environment!*

    I’ve been at my job for a little over a year. I’ve been dissatisfied with it for awhile because it wasn’t the same job as advertised, it’s a super toxic work environment (all the C-suites are always yelling at each other, people get fired en masse, CEO is a nutjob), and I keep getting additional responsibilities that I never asked for without adequate compensation. The only “raise” I received is a COLA raise at the beginning of this year. All of my colleagues at the same tier as me are looking to leave, and we’re very open about it with each other (but very discreet about it, of course).

    I knew the last straw was when they told me I would be taking on additional responsibility in a room full of people. They didn’t warn me of this in advance under the guise that it was “temporary”, and they didn’t offer any additional compensation whatsoever.

    That same day, I happened to receive a job offer, but I wanted to review it before making a decision. Once they dropped that bomb on me, I played it cool, but the next day I gave my two weeks. They’ll be in a tough spot since they are already short staffed, but honestly, it isn’t my problem. I gave them two weeks when I could have just left right away. And it’s their fault for creating a culture where people don’t want to stay, where they don’t compensate their top performers fairly, and where people feel helpless.

    I’m going to a far more stable company where everyone appears to be more level-headed. It’s a larger and more corporate setting, which I think is what I need after what I just went through. They aren’t paying that much more but they have great benefits which I realize are equally important.

    Just wanted to share this so that everyone knows that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. :)

    1. Just Call Me Jill*

      How refreshing for you! We’re about to lose a toxic employee (resigning) and the whole company is holding their breath until they leave. As a collective, we can’t wait to see what we can accomplish when that employee is gone.

      Good for you for getting out of there!

  146. Salary Negotiation*

    So I applied online with a company, and an internal recruiter from that company reached out to me for a phone screening. It was like 10 minutes. At the end of the call, he asked for my salary expectations and I gave a number 5-7K lower than I really would like and need to live (my student loans are coming off a grace period…) When I quoted the number, he said that was “definitely within their budget.”

    Since then, I had two more interviews. One on the phone with the manager of the department I would be working in and one in person with 4 members of that same department. They haven’t offered me yet, but I’m pretty sure they are going to. If they do…is it too late to ask for more money? Will I look like a weirdo because I told them a certain number before and now I want/need more?

    1. fposte*

      It’s not ideal, but you can say now that you know about the job and what it entails, you’re hoping for a salary of $X. $5k-$7k isn’t so huge as to be an automatic bomb in the negotiations.

      The concern, btw, isn’t that you would look like a weirdo but that you would look like somebody who misrepresented your salary expectations to get into a process you wouldn’t otherwise and then demanded higher pay than they can give. I think in the situation you describe you can avoid that–but in future, don’t undersell yourself at the start! It doesn’t do you any good.

    2. Me*

      I think you can ask if there’s an offer. I would phrase it along the lines of now that you know more about the role, you would be looking for a range of x-y.

      Then if it comes up, you already gave a why. They can meet it or not. What you will have to decide is if you want the job it they can’t offer you the higher salary.

  147. Ready to move on to the next thing*

    I’m preparing for a second interview in a couple weeks (at a national non-profit). My first interview went well and I felt like me and the woman (who would be my manager) clicked. Weirdly though, it’ll be almost 2 months since my last interview. They informed me that the board was “reevaluating” the open position, but after a few weeks decided to move forward. I have 2 questions:
    1. This is a newly created position: is there a critical question I should ask regarding this during my interview?
    2. Since it’s been so long between interviews, would it be okay to ask some of the same questions? I took some notes, but can’t really make them out now (lol!)

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      With any newly made role it’s really important to ask:
      What are the primary tasks the person will be responsible for? (You’re evaluating their answer to see: Have they thought this out? Do they have a good grasp of how these tasks should be performed – is that grasp reasonable?)
      What do they expect the person in the role to accomplish in the first 3, 6, 12 months? (Evaluate for: Are these reasonable goals for these timelines? Are the goals cohesive and quantifiable?)
      How will they be measuring success for the position?
      What would give them reason for concern if it cropped up in the performance of this role?
      What are the most important priorities for the position?
      What’s the reporting structure?

      You want to ask the questions of all your interviewers and evaluate whether it sounds like they all have a shared vision of the role this person will play in their company and the goals this person will be committing to. If you get different answers or it sounds like they aren’t aligned, you’ll want to ask about that. You basically want to be sure THEY have done their due diligence in creating the position. They’ve thought out the tasks, it’s enough work for a full time position, the pay is commensurate with their expectations, they have a long term vision for the role, and they know how to measure success and what goals the role should have AND EVERYONE AGREES on what these are. You don’t want to go in with conflicting expectations from people with ownership stakes in the role.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        oh geez, thank you – my powers-that-be have recently approved the development of a new role in our department for me to move into and at this point it’s just formalizing the job description before it’s officially offered, but I’ve been rolling around in my head what questions I need to make sure to ask to ensure that all the t’s are dotted and i’s crossed. This is a great list, thank you :)

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          I did that exact thing a couple years ago, and this list came out of that! I’m so glad it was helpful.

    2. fposte*

      1. There are lots of things that can be asked about newly created positions. A few for me would be: are there metrics for success here? Is it a fixed job outline or will the position evolve as it becomes clearer how it serves the organizational needs?

      2. Don’t ask the exact same questions–even after two months, you don’t want to make them answer something twice because of your note problems. But you can put a spin on it, change the phrasing, link it to something current (federal funding is always a useful current topic for an NP), go deeper into the issue, etc.

  148. Love the Company, Don't Recommend*

    A friend of mine whom I highly recommend got a phone interview for a job at my company, and hasn’t been selected. I know this, because HR is moaning about not being able to find good people and about needing someone ASAP for this role (a role they have known about needing for over 6 months and posted about 3 weeks ago). My friend is excellent, and I’d work with her in a heartbeat – and she came to me about the posting, after which I followed up internally and recommended her. She’s currently looking for work (got reorg’d out of a good job with bad managers) and we need someone to start immediately. But nope, “it’s impossible to find good people” – which I’m hearing her say to others, not to my face (fortunately). UGH. The killer though, is when I saw her in the hall and she said “Oh thanks for the recommendation, please do feel free to send me other recommendations for our open positions, I can always interview them, I really appreciate it”. We have FOUR open positions, I have sent two of my best contacts to her, and they’ve turned down both, and I have no idea why, apart from our ongoing search for a unicorn for these roles. (One of the roles is reception, FFS, it’s entry level!! WHAT ARE WE LOOKING FOR.)

    Argh. I’m so done with recommending people. I like my job, I like my team, I like my company. I do not like the HR process or people, and the other teams that need staff can do without my help to find them, because they are all infuriating and ridiculous.

    1. Zephy*

      I hear you. I haven’t personally recommended any candidates, but my department is also struggling to fill 2 vacancies and every candidate we’ve sent on to a final-round interview with the VP has been rejected for reasons no one cares to share with us. I moaned about this in last week’s open thread, too, lol.

    2. Anon 9*

      This does sound so annoying – ugh! It might be worth asking HR for feedback about the individuals you recommended and their candidacy. That way HR has to articulate what they’re actually looking for and either realize that they in fact do have some good candidates or you’ll hear something that helps you better understand the specifics of what they’re hoping to find in an individual.

    3. WellRed*

      Did you mention that you have referred people and are wondering that the heck they are looking for?

      1. Love the Company, Don't Recommend*

        The hallway comment was actually a response to me saying “thanks for your assistance with process when I spoke to you last” (HR lady had provided a few pointers on our application process when I first mentioned my friend’s interest). So she knows full well I’ve referred people. I tried asking in general what they were looking for (mostly to confirm if my friend was as good a fit as I believed), and was told that “well, it’s a process, we just keep looking until we find the best person”…which is such an utter non-answer.

        The last person I referred made it to the live interview stage and then had an apparent personality clash with the man she’d have primarily supported – “he didn’t like the way she laughed”. I Cannot. Even. Make. This. Up.

        Yeah…no more referrals from me. People here are bananas.

    4. Introvert girl*

      I recommended 3 very good people, none of them got a job. It was a money thing. See, very good people want to be paid a competitive market wage and my company wants to pay less than that.

  149. Mimmy*

    Networking email subject headings? Not sure what to put.

    I’ve heard the old “Referred by Ayra Stark” or “Met at Teapot Coordinators conference”. But that seems too vague. Should I add something to give more context for the reason I’m emailing, e.g. seeking insight on a particular career path or industry?

    1. Miss Vaaaaangie*

      I like the ‘referred by… ‘ because it gives you an in. How about ‘Referred by Ayra Stark re: XYZ’ Make your email content short and succinct, as well as how you know Ayra. Include your LinkedIn so they can put a face as well as context to your request.

      Good luck

  150. Zephy*

    On my lunch break just now, I got a call from my old manager. She wanted to let me know that her awful lizard person manager that made our jobs unnecessarily difficult while I was there just resigned…and then offered me my old job back (full-time with benefits, even – it was part-time before), because apparently everyone else with two brain cells to rub together also quit, and nobody left in the department even wants to step in and take on my old role. Honestly, I loved that job, and I’m flattered that she thought of me, but money was the reason I left and she agreed that they wouldn’t be able to come close on salary. So, that was bittersweet – it’s nice to know someone misses me and thought I was a valuable employee, I just wish they could have shown that when I was there. I don’t think she’d be able to convince TPTB to bring me back on for what I’m worth, and I also don’t think I’d jump ship here even if she could. That’s just setting up an awkward-looking resume and an awkward conversation in some future interview. I wouldn’t know how to explain it without trashing a previous employer or looking like all I care about is the money (which is true, but as long as people need money to live and need to work for money, there we are). I dunno, I’m just musing here.

    1. TooLittleTooLate*

      Yeah, you’ve moved on to bigger and better things . Honest to God, your old manager is probably musing as well, thinking about what could’ve been: you and her working together without lizard person. Too late, in my opinion, but maybe you can suggest your old manager join your new company… lol.

      1. Zephy*

        Oh yeah, I’m sure she’s imagined the Dream Team we could have been. Half the job is basically just getting along with her, and we got on like a house on fire. I’ve been gone for over a year; if all this had gone down a year ago I would have taken her up on her offer in a heartbeat, and maybe things would have been less of a fustercluck for OldCompany (Manager made it sound like there’s been a ton of turnover since I left, after all the old guard finally got sick of Lizardman’s BS and quit). But, not my circus, not my monkeys.

  151. Asahi Pepsi*

    I love entering data into Excel spreadsheets and then writing functions into cells so they can calculate data for me. What kinds of jobs could I do that would allow me to work with spreadsheet functions all day?

    1. Zephy*

      A data coordinator role within a finance department, probably. A former colleague used to do that working for a car dealership, IIRC.

      I spend all day looking at spreadsheets (and AAM…lol), but my data is all qualitative, and the spreadsheets are more reference documents than anything.

      1. Asahi Pepsi*

        Thank you for responding! I wasn’t even aware data coordinator was a job I could do (cursory googling mainly brought up financial analysis positions or administrative assistant positions.) Time to research what skills I should improve if I wanna be a data coordinator

    2. Nacho*

      Data Analyst might be a good job for you too. They’re the ones the data coordinators give their spreadsheets to to analyze.

    3. Sandra Dee*

      You would be my ideal person. Excel functions make me giddy. Business analyst, product analyst and data analyst positions would love those skills. I am an IT manager for financial systems. We love spreadsheets. And yes, I am a double geek, IT manager, and former accountant.

  152. Workplace Affairs*

    So, I’m new to this 9-5 office life (fresh out of college as of last year.) I work at a law firm. One of the lawyers is 63 (and married) is having an affair with a 38 year old staff member (also married). I know this because the 38 year old comes and talks to my co-worker (who is seated right next to me) about all the gory details. I don’t know if she just doesn’t care that I’m overhearing, or what.

    Well, yesterday, the 38 year old brought her husband and son in. The whole situation is just gross to me. I know it’s best not to get involved (at all) but for people with more work experience than me…how do these things usually pan out? Any action I can take to at least not hear the latest with them two without letting my co-worker know I’m eavesdropping (although I’m really not – she’s talking pretty loud.)

    1. Zephy*

      Are you able to wear headphones and listen to music or podcasts while you work to tune her out? Or move your desk?

      Definitely don’t get involved, don’t say anything, tune it out as best you can. If Ms. Adultery is like, explicitly describing sex acts in detail (who put what in whose where, and how), you could probably ask her to cut that out – that’s def inappropriate for the workplace, regardless of the people involved. “I can hear you talking about your sex life and it is making me very uncomfortable. Please stop.”

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      how do these things usually pan out?

      Is this a small firm? Because worst-case scenario is that one of the lawyers is the principal, their spouse finds out about the shenanigans and decides to divorce, and the financial fall-out from the divorce causes the collapse of the firm. If that’s the case, then right now the measures you can take mostly revolve around doing good work, making professional connections, and saving up enough money to tide you over in case you lose your job without much warning. (Honestly this is what you should do, anyway.)

      Otherwise, just keep your head down and watch the drama unfold. It’s not your circus, not your monkeys.

      1. valentine*

        I would leave, to avoid being interrogated for divorce or alienation of affection proceedings. I don’t suppose you’d like to say, “Can you take that somewhere private? I don’t want to be called as a witness.”

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          You would quit your job if a co-worker got divorced, on the off-chance that you’d be interviewed/deposed or put on the stand in a divorce case? That’s extreme.

        2. Observer*

          Alienation of affection? Really?

          Also, I doubt that either of them would be impressed by “I don’t want to be called as a witness.” Let’s they don’t seem to think it’s a potential issue.

  153. Tentative*

    Anyone here switch from the nonprofit sector to tech / software engineering? Especially women who’ve done this? What was the experience like?

    I’m getting tired of the small nonprofits and pigeonholed by my narrow field of expertise, and also feeling bored with project management. I’m good at it but I don’t feel challenged by it. I want something more intellectually engaging and I want to learn and grow. I also want more flexibility to be able to move between cities if need be. I also want to make enough money to afford childcare when I have children. I’ve been self-teaching to code on the side for about year and I’m considering entering a software bootcamp. Would love to hear from anyone who’s made a similar switch.

    1. Calling Brits*

      Hows the self coding going?

      I’m also a woman with a lot of small charities on my cv whose just kinda done with it. I feel like I’ve got another few years in the sector, but will want to do something else eventually and the tech dollar and lifestyle is attractive. I’ve got lots of tech friends who say I was born to work in a startup (I feel like a small charity is all the dysfunction, none of the beer Fridays. I want beer with my dysfunction godammit), but I haven’t started learning to code and I’m concerned that part of the attraction is that it doesn’t play to my strengths

      1. Tentative*

        I really enjoy working alone and I enjoy the designing-troubleshooting process, so teaching myself to code has been pretty fun. It’s also frustrating because there’s so, so much to learn, and starting as an adult rather than a college student you feel very far behind.

        I’m not actually attracted to the startup lifestyle at all…I know people who work at more established companies and it seems like the atmosphere there is less bro-y and better for women.

    2. Engineer Girl*

      So one clarification. What you are talking about is programming, not engineering. Engineering involves all the math and theory and design behind the processes. Programming is just one of the processes used to get to the end product.
      That said, there are several boot camps with great reputations. Make sure you get a good one. Knowing how to program would be a great switch.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      BTW, one word of warning for tech. It’s brutal for women. You’ll be eaten for breakfast if your skill set is mediocre.
      Make sure you’re good before you apply for jobs. You’ll need the external training and assessment of your work to get a real judgement of the quality. Self coding is fine to start, but in a vacuum you’ll have no knowledge of the actual efficiency and quality. That’s why boot camps and classes are helpful. It gives you a feeling for standards and practices.

  154. Persistent Persimmons*

    Clash of the Directors

    We hired a new Dev Director, 2 mos ago. She’s done some really helpful things, but overall she’s bulldozing everyone, except the Ex Director. She’s also started telling the other Directors what to do and how to do it, so she can get her work done. We think she might be having a challenge moving from working from home w/o a team to an in-office workplace w/ a 2-person team and other directors. Power struggle anyone?

    We’re in for a coup and walk out pretty soon. Stay tuned!

    1. Auntie Social*

      So she’s never heard of using a light touch?? I’d mention, if I were asked, that your team/dept works better when someone uses a light touch, as Connie alway has….

      1. Phighting Phlox*

        It would have been great if she had ingratiated herself w/ our Events Manager and opted to help with the committee cultivating gifts or calling past golf teams to get them to renew their play. Instead, she came in managing while also saying, “You know more than me. Keep doing what you’re doing. I don’t want to get into the weeds.” Well she ought to be sneezing and itching for how in the weeds she is

    2. phedre*

      Are you able to push back on her? How does she react when you do? And most importantly, does the ED see that there’s an issue with her behavior? Because unfortunately if they don’t, or if they understand there’s a problem but are reluctant to manage, nothing will change.

      1. Persistent Persimmon*

        I think the ED is very happy to have someone like the DD, so the ED can focus on other things. The ED is new to being an ED, coming from a non-profit marketing background. So the ED is learning her role and the DD (who doesn’t have any fundraising experience… sigh) is left to do things as she sees fit. They’re often behind the ED’s closed door and they’ve recently decided just the ED and DD will go to the parent organization national conference, but not our programs person.

        I push back, and while I’m the lowest ‘woman’ in the hierarchy, which normally one wouldn’t expect to be able to push back, my past non-profit experiences give me support to do so. I’m afraid she’s preferring me, over the others, because of my skills/experiences and ultimately she wants me to herself although I support two departments (hers and programs). She’s tried to re-arrange my work and make others have to go through her to assign me work (which I won’t’ let happen).

        I would love for my co-workers to do so but I understand why some people don’t – they don’t feel they have a choice if it came down to ‘If you don’t like it, leave.’

        1. phedre*

          I’m sorry, it sounds like a mess! You can try to keep setting boundaries and hopefully she’ll learn, but unless you have an ED willing to back you up you may have to ultimately move on. I’m glad that you’re able to push back though without repercussions. So many people don’t feel comfortable doing that because they’re worried they’ll get fired or something.

          Also, as a Development Director myself, yikes! I hate how many nonprofits think that anyone can do development. There are definitely some people who just innately have a knack for it, but most of us had to work hard to learn how to fundraise (it’s both an art and a science). Plus any ED who thinks having a DD means they don’t need to focus on fundraising is in for a rude awakening.

          1. Persistent Persimmons*

            I’ve been a DD and an ED, so I understand their responsibilities like you do. I’m really not sure why they chose an someone without experience; I know she needs the experience but there’s ways to work into the DD position, just not here.

            She’s a self proclaimed challenger and reformer personality, which doesn’t preclude her from effective fundraising, but it’s hurting her relationship building.

            I’m thinking about bringing it up with her. My colleagues are talking about leaving. It’s serious.

  155. Seeking Second Childhood*

    So help me I need to deliver 24 tasks on a conversion project where someone else didn’t take any of my input on individual inconsistencies before they wrote the materials-change notice in SAP & sent it through approvals.
    There is not enough chocolate in the world to get me to the end of the day.
    I need cute animal pictures.

  156. Woman of a Certain Age*

    Newish job is not going well. I’m really trying hard, but having trouble remembering all of the many details that go into my new job and using the awkward old unintuitive software that is a big part of the job. I was part of a large group hire, and while approximately 10% of the group have dropped out already, I’m probably one of the worst performers. The group was divided into 3 smaller training groups and from speaking with the other groups, they don’t seem to be under as much pressure as the group I’m in. I received a performance improvement plan and am supposed to get some extra coaching and training, but if I don’t improve I might be out by the end of the month.

    If I thought I would have health insurance past the end of the month I’d get some medical tests done to see if I might have early-stage Alzheimer’s or something. Of course, they frown on the new hires taking time off, so that’s another reason I’m reluctant to do so.

      1. Woman of a Certain Age*

        I’m doing this and creating some job aids for myself, especially for the software tools that we are supposed to use. It is odd to me that they don’t already have these, but most of the other people in the group don’t seem to need them.

    2. WellRed*

      the alzheimers assoc has a easy to read chart of the 10 signs of is it alzhiemers or normal aging. it’s at alz.org. I am guessing (not diagnosing) normal aging

      1. Woman of a Certain Age*

        This is a good recommendation. Based on the chart I would say, probably not, but some of the things are a bit inconclusive.

    3. Michael Scott*

      Maybe try a sleep study? You might be suffering from sleep apnea. I know I was and my work greatly suffered. My concentration, energy, and memory were shot. Losing weight for me was what helped me sleep. I saw a dramatic difference in my life and my work.

  157. phedre*

    How do you all deal with anxiety/mental health stuff at work? How do you fight impostor syndrome? How do you make yourself do some aspects of your work that is new/scary instead of procrastinating?

    So my amazing boss resigned last week, and it’s making me super anxious. She is the best boss I’ve ever had. Working for her for the last 5 years has been wonderful. She’s a really talented person who did so much for our nonprofit, took care of her employees, and helped me grow and develop in countless ways. There was already a lot of stress in my personal life (death in the family, spouse’s health issues, etc.) but I was handling it well. But when she resigned my anxiety went through the roof. I worry a little about the impact on the agency as a whole, but mostly I think it’s triggered a lot of impostor syndrome feelings for me – like, now they’re all going to figure out I don’t know what I’m doing and I suck at fundraising and fire me and then I’ll have to go take a huge pay cut at a shitty job, which I know is not going to happen but I’m still anxious about it.

    I’ve learned a lot from my boss and know intellectually that I’m very good at my job (I got a 10% raise in March and have never had anything less than a stellar annual review) and will continue to grow in this role, but anxiety isn’t rational. She was the person everyone in my agency, including my ED, went to for advice, strategy, and questions. I know we’ll all figure it out and we’ll be fine, but it’s a huge stressor. I’m very lucky that I work with the best people – my ED has been amazing. I burst into tears in front of her and she told me she gets it, she cried too when my boss resigned, and that she will support me however I need. I’ll be reporting to my ED in the future, and she’s awesome and I have a wonderful relationship with her, but I’m still feeling all kinds of grief right now. I made an appointment with a therapist and will talk to my doctor about possibly starting anti-anxiety meds, I’m exercising and doing all the usual self-care stuff, but I just want to magically be less anxious now.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t know, but I wish I’d found out about meditation before this happened to me.

      It sucks to lose a great boss–I know exactly how that feels. But it sounds like you’re on the right track with the therapist and doctor appointments.

      1. phedre*

        Thanks! I think I’ll try meditation. I have friends who swear by it, but I’ve never been able to really get into it. Time to give it another shot!

        And honestly, just typing out all of my feelings and having internet strangers commiserate helps.

  158. Another PhD student*

    Longtime lurker, but I actually have a question I’m somewhat agonizing about and could use some career-oriented hivemind advice – hopefully this doesn’t get buried.

    I’m a PhD student graduating in the near-ish future, and with the advice I found here about shaping my resume and cover letter, I landed an on-site interview with a company I’m extremely excited about and am very hopeful to work for after graduation! But, they want to fly me out during a period when my long-term extremely-long-distance (intercontinental) boyfriend is visiting. He’s visiting for about three weeks this summer, and the company is on the other side of the country, so I’d have to fly out and back for it over the course of three days. I see my boyfriend rarely enough due to the distance, so I’m somewhat loathe to give up more time with him, but I don’t want to come off as difficult to schedule an interview with. I don’t think I can bring him with me either, because I’m guessing that would be super weird. I suspect I have to just suck it up, but does anyone have any helpful thoughts?

    1. Washi*

      Maybe I’m just naive, but if he paid for his own flights, how would they know that he was staying in the hotel room with you? Or if he has any friends in that city, maybe he could stay with them?

      And also, is the time they want to fly you out at the tail end of his visit, or in the beginning/middle? I don’t think it would be difficult to say “I can’t do the week of the 20th, but anything after the 27th is fine.” But it it’s right at the beginning of his visit, I think it might be tricky to say you’re not available for the whole 3 weeks.

      1. Another PhD student*

        Their suggested dates are very close to the beginning of his visit – I was hoping I could do it before he came, but they ended up not being able to do that set of dates. You may be right that they wouldn’t know he was staying with me though, I’ll have to think about that. I just wouldn’t want there to be any sort of impropriety that could make people uncomfortable (like I’m using the interview to have a vacation for me and my boyfriend)? It’s very possible I’m overthinking this!

        1. WellRed*

          You are overthinking it, but I can see why. Honestly, if you were thinking of relocating and he was moving with you, you’d want him to go to check out the area.

          1. Another PhD student*

            That’s a really good point, and he will be moving with me to wherever my next move is (but is extremely open to wherever). And thanks for confirming that I’m overthinking this!

    2. Ama*

      I have definitely helped arrange travel for job candidates who have said “oh, by the way, I’d like to bring my spouse/partner/etc. out with me to see the area, but we will of course cover all their costs and they will entertain themselves while I’m focused on the interview. Is that going to cause any problems?” That way if it really is going to be a problem (for example, if they had planned for you to have dinner with your interviewer or something) they can say something but also it doesn’t feel like you have to hide his existence.

      That said, I’d leave out all the context about him being extremely long-distance and this being your only chance to see him, and just let them assume that you want this important person in your life to see where you might be relocating to. That’s actually a really valid reason to bring a partner out to a long-distance interview.

      1. Another PhD student*

        This is a great script, thank you – if I end up going this route, this is what I will say. Thanks for the suggestion, and especially your perspective as an interviewer!

  159. Astrid*

    My ‘extra, as needed duties’ are taking over my day.

    I’ve been working at a local high school for two years now and, aside from the low pay, I really enjoy the work. I’m in the teacher’s workroom making copies, flyers, posters, booklets, etc. For the most part it’s extremely autonomous and with a lot of creative leeway, which is perfect for me.

    The problem is that the school corporation is having problems finding substitutes. I was told when I interviewed that I might have to fill in occasionally if an emergency cropped up, but I’d be the last resort. As it stands now they’ve got me covering three to four periods a day, not including the one period I’m permanently assigned to watching the In School Suspension class while the teacher has lunch. That means that there are days when I only have one or two periods to actually accomplish my normal work – and there is so much of that to do. Today I had to make a thousand packets for the athletic department and cut out two thousand slips for iPad collection at the end of the month.

    I simply don’t have enough time to finish all of my work, and it’s starting to become an issue. I’m usually a really fast worker, able to turn things around quickly. Now I have things sitting in my to-do tray for three or four days, and emails and voicemails wondering why I’m not getting things done.

    They’ve started paying me an extra two dollars per hour for each class I have to cover, but that doesn’t make up for the time I’m away from my desk and the work that needs done. Any advice for how to deal, or how to approach this with people higher up?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Simply ask for prioritization: Hey, with all the classes I’m substituting for, my actual work is running behind. What absolutely needs to be done, and what can slide?

      For some of the really low-level, rote tasks, like cutting slips, are there student aides at your school who can assist? Or student clubs which need volunteer hours?

      1. valentine*

        Can the suspension class be moved to a copier or other things you need, or vice versa? Do you have a laptop you can work from during that time? Why don’t the suspended students go to lunch at that time?

    2. Semaj*

      This is prime time for one of Alison’s scripts.

      “If you need me to cover 4 periods per day, I can get X and Y done, but not Z. Can Fergus pitch in on Z, or would it make sense for me to cover 3 periods instead?” I get that they’re in a coverage bind, but this kind of approach helps them realized your time limitations when you’re stretched so thin.

      1. just a random teacher*

        This…doesn’t really work quite like that in a school context. If they’re scrambling period-to-period for subs, it’s going to be different every day and always a last minute crisis (albeit an increasing foreseeable one in overall size if not specific shape), so it’s not something where you can really negotiate 3 periods versus 4 in the moment.

        Here’s how it happens when everything is functioning well:

        Jane is sick, and will be out today. She has 4th period as her prep period. A sub (Jenny) is called for her that day, and her sub covers her classes and does some kind of other task on her prep period (possibly grading Jane’s papers, possibly some other task within the school such as filing, possibly absolutely nothing in particular and her sub instead reads a book)

        Fergus is sick, and will be out today. He has 3rd period as his prep period. A sub (Frank) is called for him that day, and his sub covers his classes and does some kind of other task on his prep period.

        Wakeen is sick, and will be out today. He has 2rd period as his prep period. A sub (Wallace) is called for him that day, and his sub covers his classes and does some kind of other task on his prep period.

        Now, imagine that there is a shortage of subs, so only two subs (Jenny and Frank) are trying to cover the three missing teachers because by the time Wakeen realize he was too sick to go to work all of the subs were busy already and declined the job. (This is not something the school will know is happening until it does, because most subs work in multiple districts and individual subs also have different lists of levels and subjects they are willing to teach – the school doesn’t get a “sub list is running on fumes” buzzer when the second-to-last sub in line is placed for the day or anything, because it’s not a single list that only they are pulling people out of but rather an interconnected pool of people who are all working multiple gigs and signed up several places.)

        Jenny will cover Jane’s classes, plus Wakeen’s 4th period class since Jane has 4th period prep. Frank will cover Fergus’s classes, plus Wakeen’s 3rd period class since Fergus has 3rd period prep. Wakeen has 2nd period prep, so someone still needs to cover his classes for 1st, 5th, and 6th period. At this point, the school starts scrambling around and asking people like the OP to cover the remaining periods.

        The specific shape of today’s crisis probably won’t be fully known until about 30 minutes before the first bell, since until then you don’t know how many people will be calling in sick, how many of them won’t be able to get subs, and how badly the prep periods will align.

        I agree that the OP needs to talk to her supervisor about how the increased subbing periods means she’s falling behind in her actual work, and set up some sort of prioritization scheme, but the problem is that unattended students are a crisis right then, and pieces of paper are not, so until someone higher up the pay scale finds another way to manage that sub coverage crisis the OP will keep getting pulled away.

  160. TGIF*

    Has anyone ever heard of a department that doesn’t have a manager? Our owner/president of our relatively small company (~30 employees) is floating the idea of having our customer service department of 4 people not having a manager. They’d have someone they could go to to ask questions, but no manager per se. As the HR person, I think this is a terrible idea, so I’d like to see if this is even a thing.

    1. Me*

      Someone has to be responsible for the work. They don’t need a dedicated customer service manager per se, but they have to report to someone.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, basically the owner is setting themselves up to be the de facto manager. And of all departments not to have a manager, customer service? Bad plan.

        1. Autumnheart*

          It also basically means that one or two people within the “self-managed” team wind up as ad-hoc managers, who field questions and send issues up the chain, but who don’t get paid for the extra work.

    2. CM*

      Self-managing teams are a thing that exists but it’s hard to pull it off. If the 4 people in that department have really good communication, work well together, and have the bandwidth, experience, and desire to take on the manager’s responsibilities, it can work. It might even be an exciting experiment to try, to see if you can set up your teams to succeed this way.

      I was once on a team that did this unofficially, because we were abandoned for two years after our manager got fired. There were four of us and the Director responsible for our old manager was always AWOL, so we were alone most of the time with no real direction. We agreed on how to divide up the stuff that needed to get done to keep the department running (like, who’s going to keep track of whether our projects are on schedule? who’s going to go to the management meetings? who’s responsible for the money stuff? how will we decide who does incoming projects? etc, etc) and then… I was straight-up the only person who did the stuff I was responsible for. Which meant I eventually ended up doing all of it and, long story short, I ended up being the manager.

      So it failed. But I think that, if it had been a formal experiment with a different group of people in a different organization, where supports were put in place to facilitate it, it could have succeeded. And I also think that, even though I was the only person willing to dig into the boring administrative stuff, there were times when we were really successful just standing in a circle and solving a problem democratically, and the experience of doing that really knit us together.

      And now I have warm, fuzzy memories of that. I’m really pulling for your self-managed team.

  161. AnonymousUnicorn*

    I am one of two people – we do sorta the same thing but for different groups of people. My other half has worked here a year longer than me and was the primary one “training” me when I started a few years ago.

    Now he has decided he is my boss instead of my coworker because he’s gunning for a promotion. Trying to take over my special projects even tho he has plenty of his own and of course, only the ones that are fun not the dull crappy ones. Has started trying to dictate my work hours and act as a go between between me and my actual boss.

    Now he’s expecting updates from me on my special projects that he’s is going to then have a project meeting with our boss. I’ve tried talking to our boss but he’s really a hands off kinda of person.

    How do I address this with coworker without causing conflict cause we do have to work together…

      1. AnonymousUnicorn*

        Thank you! Apparently I’m terrible at the right terms when searching the archives!

    2. One to Find The Giraffe*

      If you have a boss with whom you’re close, I might actually approach it that way. “Recently, Fergus has begun requesting status updates from me and attempting to provide direction over my work. In the past, I’ve always reported directly to you, so this seemed strange to me and I wanted to make sure this was what you wanted.”

      Obviously, this is just my opinion, but that’s what I’d do. It may well be she’s not aware of what Fergus is doing.

    3. WellRed*

      Something along the lines of, “Oh, I already met with boss about my project.” “Fergus, is there a reason why you are trying to dictate my hours?” And I know the boss is hands-off, but you really need to talk to him about this. If you don’t address this, you are not going to get credit for work, and you’ll be left in the dust.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You need to have a sit-down with your boss and let them know what’s going on. This isn’t something to comfortably try to take on yourself because he sounds like he’ll try to keep flexing on you. Go to the boss and explain that your projects are being taken from you and that you want to understand if that’s approved by The Boss or not.

      With this kind of bulldozer personality, it’s not in your best interest to worry much about causing conflicts when they’re being so over the top with the boundary pushing.

    5. Me*

      You can’t avoid conflict because there already is conflict – created by coworker.

      Ignore his dictates on hours. A polite, sorry I can’t do that, I’m doing this. . Ignore his requests for updates. A polite, sorry I’m in the middle of something can’t talk about this unless it’s relevent to something you need for your work.

      Wash and repeat.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        That’s pretty much what I was going to write. He’s not your boss, just blow him off.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree too. He may expect your updates, but you don’t owe them to him. He may want to cover your special projects in his meeting with your boss, but that’s your job so give him nothing or at most say something like “I’ve got this, I’ll be meeting with/presenting to boss directly.” Dictating your work hours? “Nope, if you want to meet, I will be in at my usual time/working until my usual time.”

        I know someone who felt really pushed out of a team when one person was given a slightly senior role and morphed it into pseudo-manager of the team and claimed credit for others’ work (the actual manager was very conflict avoidant and hands off). It got to the point where we recommended to the coworker that they convert all their documents to PDFs with watermarks to maintain ownership… Don’t let it go that far. Get out in front of your boss now, even if it means more frequent updates, so you’re clearly identified as the owner of your projects.

    6. CM*

      “Why are you being so bossy all of a sudden?”

      I’d honestly be curious to hear what he says. But, if it’s some version of asserting that he’s your boss or that it’s his job to supervise your work, prepare for how you’ll respond to that ahead of time. One good response is probably, “[Actual boss] hasn’t mentioned that to me.” And then talk to your actual boss and tell him that your coworker just said he’s your supervisor and you want to clarify what your relationship is.

      More likely, your coworker will say something vague that implies he has some kind of authority without actually saying so. At that point, you can pivot into talking about how the behavior is affecting you and what you would like to see change. “I really miss how well we used to work together as colleagues, but now I feel like you’re trying to control me and it’s making things weird. I’d like to go back to you doing your projects and me doing mine [or whatever].”

  162. AccountantWendy*

    We are hiring a temporary employee to assist with our workload during a particularly busy time. The work we’ll assign isn’t difficult or require specialized technical or accounting knowledge, but the person most likely to succeed in the short time we have will need excellent critical thinking skills and the self-confidence to approach people to ask for help or answers. We will have the opportunity to interview candidates and I wonder what are good interview questions OR activities / tests that you’ve used to test critical thinking / problem solving skills?

    1. fposte*

      Can you use recent problems you’ve encountered as exercises? The closer it is to what they’d really face, the more relevant it will be; it will also help cue applicants as to what the job will be like, so it’s beneficial in two directions. Especially with a temporary job, unless it’s paying unusually well, I’d try to minimize tests and hoops and focus on the job challenges themselves.

  163. LGC*

    Sitting at home today…still thinking about work! (I had a lot of PTO to burn, so I took Fridays off this month and next month.)

    A couple of weeks ago (on the April 26 thread), I commented about having to write performance reviews and that I was pretty stressed out by it. (I’ve done them before, and it’s been my – and others’ – experience that my boss and the department director will nitpick at them.) I got them back this week, and the department director said that the 11 I wrote were excellent overall! (There were minimal revisions, but I was bracing for a TON.)

    Thanks Alison, Kathenus, and Policy Wonk – you guys gave great advice. I’ll drop a link back to that comment thread below for anyone else.

    2. Kathenus*

      Congratulations on getting them done, and on the positive feedback from your boss!

  164. Anon-Today*

    I applied for an internal position to get away from ToxicBoss, but would still be under the thumb of ToxicGrandBoss, who used to have this position before the person who just left was hired. Since ToxicGrandBoss has been hired, I have been called onto the carpet twice by him, and had problems with ToxicBoss, which have resulted in a performance improvement plan, which ToxicBoss botched but which I came through despite her mismanagement.

    I know that I can do this job, but I’m afraid I won’t even be considered because of the history with ToxicBoss and ToxicGrandBoss. The plus for me would be not having to report to ToxicBoss, and having an expansion in my role in the areas that she’s never had anything but positive things to say.

    Internal candidates seem to get every job they apply for here, so I’m hopeful that this is my big chance to escape the pettiness, passive-aggressive swipes, micromanaging and bullying. This is the first time I’ve applied for a job where I know everyone (good bad and ugly) and they know me.

    I decided to use ToxicBoss as a reference, figuring they’d ask her about me anyway. If I were a total stranger, I’m confident I’d make it to the interview stage. I welcome any advice the commentariat here would like to offer.

    1. CM*

      It sounds like you’re not in favour with these people, and that might block you from getting called for an interview for this job, especially because it’s still in ToxicGrandBoss’ reporting chain. So, my advice is to prepare for both possibilities, mentally.

      If you DO get called for an interview, be really thoughtful about what you plan to say about your relationship with ToxicBoss and the performance plan. For me, this would be the most difficult thing because, when I hate someone, it’s pretty obvious, and you’d not want it to be obvious in this scenario.

      If you DON’T get called for an interview, remind yourself that getting out of this company completely is probably a way better option that will do more to improve your quality of life than getting a different job under the same toxic leadership. If you aren’t already applying externally, start doing it now.

      1. Anon-Today*

        Thanks. I’ve had a couple of interviews, but the kind of work I do is a rare and disappearing specialty. If I get this other job, it will be in the subspecialty that has more prospects, so I could still move on.

        I’ve been mulling over what to say in interviews, and the toxic stuff will definitely be in my mind if I don’t start rehearsing better lines. I did some of that with my cover letter, so I think I have a good case for changing career path without my escape plan.

  165. AnonyMouse*

    I’m probably too late to the open thread, but a lot has happened today! I’ve posted on here quite a bit about my toxic work environment and the awful 15 month job search that I’ve been on. Well I’m thrilled to say that this morning I got an offer from a job that is going to be a much better fit in the area I’m looking to move too! Thank you to everyone on this blog for letting me vent constantly and lending supportive advice whenever I’ve asked! AAM seriously helped me stay sane during this whole process.

  166. Lucette Kensack*

    For the first time, I am working with an executive search firm on an application process, and I just want to say: what a delight.

    The whole experience is so different from other hiring processes I’ve gone through. I applied for the job and was invited for an initial conversation with the search firm. Our conversation was focused on what I wanted my next moves to be, and why, and whether this particular role really met what I was looking for. We chatted a bit about my resume — and it was genuinely conversational and never felt like I was being asked to prove my worth — and at the end, they said they were sending me ahead to the client with a positive recommendation.

    Formal interviews to come (providing the organization agrees with the search firm’s recommendation), and I imagine they will be more typical. But so far the experience has been respectful and has left me with a really positive feeling about both the organization that’s hiring and the search firm itself.

    Yay!

  167. One to Find The Giraffe*

    Late in the day, but: would love some advice!

    I find myself in a situation where my formerly-challenging and prestigious job (think Assistant Manager for Teapot Manufacturing, reporting to my Manager and then directly to Exec team) has, for long and complex reasons I really won’t get into, become a position without any real authority or challenge. We’ve gone through a lot of transition–new President, new responsibilities for Exec team, and new Manager for me about 9 months ago, and in the intervening time I’ve gotten steadily more and more sidelined. At this point, I have a steady and stable job with a great paycheck–but much less responsibility, much less interaction with decision-makers, and much less possibility for advancement. To make matters worse, one of my colleagues has assumed the role that used to be mine.

    I’ve done all the things I know to do: continued to show my face at HQ regularly, come up with and pitch interesting projects to the Exec team (successfully!), proactively approach my bosses with my concerns to request greater direction and guidance. My past performance evals have all been glowing. But I haven’t gotten any feedback about why this might have happened, what I might do differently, or what I might expect for my future with this company.

    Given that my contract is up in the fall, I’d like to be proactive about this now, so that I can put myself in as secure a position as possible. Any thoughts about what I should be doing that I’m not?

    1. Graciosa*

      I’m going to identify a couple extremes for you to think about. This isn’t meant to be harsh, just to help you think through what makes sense for you in this situation.

      1. Noting that they gave your job to someone else and you’re apparently being sidelined, assume that the new team just doesn’t care to have you around. It’s not unusual for new management to decide they want new people (or “their own” people). It doesn’t mean that you haven’t done a great job in the past or that you’ve done anything wrong. It does mean that you no longer have a real future at this company. That can absolutely happen through no fault of your own.

      2. They have some fantastic new job in mind for you, but are waiting for X to happen to move you into this new role.

      If this was 2-3 months in, I’d hold out a lot more hope for the second option. Transitions take time, and sometimes patience is really what you need in order to succeed.

      I went through a version of this myself which required waiting for 6-12 months, and it absolutely paid off – but the difference is that I was getting very clear messaging from multiple layers of management that they were working on a new assignment for me in line with my personal goals. I also knew and understood what was going on that caused the unusual delays (nothing to do with me, and no one was stringing me along). That kind of clear messaging is what you provide when you have an employee you value and want to keep. You’re not getting it.

      The truth in your case may be more in the middle (doesn’t hurt to let Giraffe-finder stay at the moment and keep her title – something will change eventually, whether she leaves on her own or someone thinks of something we want her to do) or it may be closer to the first option. After 9 months without a lot of messaging, I think you have cause for concern.

      No matter where the truth lies, your options are to stay (while they let you) or look to leave on your own terms. It can be very hard to do the latter when you have a good history with the organization – but that organization is changing, and those changes may mean that it’s no longer the right fit for you. Regardless of your salary, it matters when you feel that you’re a member of a great team and your input is valued.

      I would encourage you to set your own personal deadline for when you’ll start looking for a new job.

      I would also encourage you to share it with someone you trust and know only personally (not a work colleague) who will keep you honest about actually applying for other jobs if things aren’t improving after the deadline. Despite the very clear communication I mentioned above in my own situation, I had a date when I was going to start looking for my next job. Staying too long in a stagnant role starts to change the way you think, and it will damage you if you do it too long.

      Do not let memories of the past blind you to the present or convince you to ignore damage to your future.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this, and I hope it turns out better than I fear for you.

      1. WellRed*

        Seconding all of this. Especially: They gave your job to someone else and have sidelined you.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Unfortunately this often happens when companies go through massive restructuring. The new management comes in, and while they may value the work you’ve done, they’re trying to forge their own path… and you get sidelined as a result.
      I’ve been through something similar, though I wasn’t quite as highly placed. It’s unfortunate and it seems to happen to women much more frequently.

    3. CM*

      If you haven’t already, I’d be very direct about asking the exact things you want to know: why your job duties changed, why your work was reassigned to someone else, what your future is at the company, etc. It’s possible that your new boss and the new execs didn’t understand what your job was before and don’t realize that they reassigned your job responsibilities to someone else. That’s kind of negligent on their part, if it’s true, but it can happen. So, having a clear, direct conversation about what’s happening and why it’s different from what you want to happen could put you on a better track.

      If it’s not an accident, or if they straight-up can’t answer direct questions about this kind of thing or don’t care or get mad when you ask about it, that’s also information you need to know when you’re making plans for the future.

      FWIW, I got constructively dismissed from a job over the course of about a year, and part of what made it infuriating was that no one would acknowledge what was happening — they would just gaslight me and go “Your job has always been X” and then, once X was taken away, too, “Your job has always been Y.” After a certain point, I had to decide that not being able to get a truthful answer from those people WAS my answer from those people. I confronted them and said that, if my job was gone, they needed to actually fire me (so I could collect unemployment) instead of jerking me around.

      If your contract is about to come to an end anyway, you may be able to force them into honestly admitting that you won’t have a job there after. But right now, I’d assume that’s what’s going to happen, unless your attempts to have a clear, direct conversation lead them to change your job duties back.

  168. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

    Promised to some of my friends I’ll post this question in today’s open thread. This week after a phone interview that my teammate and I had conducted, I got a thank-you email from one of the people we’d interviewed, sent to my work account and addressed only to me. My teammate didn’t get one. The candidate did not have either of our contact info and their only contact at our company was our internal recruiter. I’ve been sitting in on panel interviews at this company for all six years I’ve been here and this is the first time a candidate sent a thank-you note to me separately. Typically they send one to the person that was their contact at our company, who then in turn may or may not forward it to everyone else on the panel. I have only ever sent one thank-you email to my contact as well whenever I had an interview. We liked the candidate but were weirded out by the email. I asked some friends and was surprised to hear from several people that job candidates are now being told to send separate emails to each person that was on the interview with them – and if they don’t have someone’s email address, they are being told to figure it out and send the email anyway. Is this standard practice? This is the first time I’ve seen this in my field. I’m in IT. Is this maybe standard in other fields?

    1. fposte*

      It’s pretty common in a lot of fields, yes. I would take it as either a neutral or a good sign.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve always done it, but my field is highly relationship-oriented. Please don’t hold it against the candidate!

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Oh, I know that it is. But then again, it’s very easy to find someone’s home address either, but that doesn’t mean we should. I just didn’t know if it was something that was widely practiced. I still think it’s a pretty wild thing to tell the candidates they should be doing, but hell, we are in corporate America. Nothing can be expected to make sense.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          A legitimate business contact emailed you a polite, work-related note at your work email.

          Why is that wild or nonsensical?

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            Because he didn’t have my email address and I believe he shouldn’t have been made to go hacking for one.

            Up until this time, the only emails I’ve gotten at my work address from people who were not explicitly given it, and are not in the work directory themselves, had been from spammers. I am still trying to wrap my mind that this spammer-likes behavior is apparently something that’s now required of the job candidates; which means I’ll have to do the same if I’m ever looking for work, and will apparently hurt my chances with an employer if I don’t? I’m going to need some time to get used to this new (and, imo, invasive) thing being the norm.

            1. valentine*

              There are letters here where the person only got first names or was never told who all eight people were. I think it’d be exhausting to come up with so many variations.

              I hope you’re not holding it against this guy, especially without asking him what’s up.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      “Typically they send one to the person that was their contact at our company, who then in turn may or may not forward it to everyone else on the panel.”

      I think this is why candidates try to figure out a hiring manager’s email. Maybe it’s weird to you, but AAM and many others do recommend (and appreciate) a thoughtful, well-written follow-up note to an interview. AAM has a small, but good section about this (including the benefits of a follow-up note) under “Thank-you notes.”

      I suppose I can see why you’d consider it a bit different for a panel interview. Personally, I have sent individual emails to each person on a panel, with a brief note about something that we talked about specifically. It didn’t seem like they thought it was weird (I’m not in IT).

  169. baconeggandcheeseplz*

    I’m working on updating my resume and I’m having some difficulties adding accomplishments, not just responsibilities. I work in client services at an teapot agency (which I find spelling out accomplishments a little harder anyway), and I was hired to work on one major account that had approx ~80 clients under it, which I have about half of. We only manage the execution side of this account (think: ordering teapots and making sure they’re shipped to customers), not the planning part.

    I’ve only been there ~8 months now, and after 5 months in, someone left and they also gave me THAT account, which is a large account (only one client) by itself, which is fully planning the teapot strategy and then doing their financials etc. etc. and just recently they gave me another new (smaller) account to on board and that is fully planning/executing.

    So now, as a teapot account executive, I’m also acting as a teapot account manager for both of the new accounts. I’m not sure how to emphasize this in a way doesn’t make someone reading it say “cool everyone gets more work” because I’ve basically been put on 2 other account teams, and they normally wouldn’t give more accounts to someone new. Any suggestions?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      A hint I use to help people is for you to think about the duties you and do and what the result of those duties are. You don’t need to list exact accomplishments unless you have them to give– but based on what you said above, here are some examples.

      Manages teapot ordering process resulting in on-time delivery X% of the time
      Develops, directs and monitors teapot strategy for a large account (don’t say large account say multi-million dollar, or whatever is relevant) aimed at (maintaining/building) XXX
      Manages $X budget for large account or Manages financial reporting which supports/improves…

      Does that make sense? Take the duty- teapot ordering- add a verb to it, and tell me what the result is or the outcome from you doing that. Most of them will be routine… but they still result in something. Here is an example of one of my real life ones..
      My duty-oversee the performance management process…
      Leads and develops results-driven performance management tools and process that integrate with **company’s values and competencies resulting in greater objectivity of performance.

    2. Hufflepuffin*

      “because I’ve basically been put on 2 other account teams, and they normally wouldn’t give more accounts to someone new”

      This bit feels like it can go in covering letters.

  170. BelleMorte*

    Does anyone have a Masters in Public Administration? Is it valuable at all in the public service/government sector? would a MBA be more effective career-wise?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I have half an MPA, if that helps! (Abandoned years ago – that second half is not coming any time soon.) And I’m coming up to 20 years in the public service.

      I found the information and the classroom learning useful, for sure. But the specific credential doesn’t seem to mean much – I don’t think I’ve seen any job postings where it was required or even recommended. Sometimes they will require a specific degree like law or accounting, but I’ve never seen one with a more generalized MPA/MBA.

      In my opinion, it’s worth getting if you’re interested in the subject matter, and if you personally enjoy the structure of working towards an advanced degree. If you’re trying to decide between an MPA and an MBA, I think you should do whatever feels best for you – I can’t imagine most employers would worry too much about the difference.

      If you’re trying to decide between an MPA and no degree at all, it’s a bit more complicated. In that case I might lean more towards getting the education and experience rather than investing the time and money in the degree – but there are so many factors to consider, you’d really have to weigh out the pros and cons either way. Good luck, whatever you decide!

    2. Persistent Persimmon*

      I have an MPA. I entered into non-profit with my BA’s and served in the Air Force for 9 years before I decided to earn the MPA with my GI Bill, while I was stationed overseas and didn’t have a civilian job. I felt that when I returned home, I would need a bit more on my resume (surprise, military service doesn’t cut it anymore) and it wouldn’t look too great to have a break w/o at least something constructive on my resume.

      The program I went through was more emphasis on the public sector/government rather than non-profit. I’d like to think these days they have more emphasis areas/tracts aside from those.

      MPA has been a nice addition but not a benefit. I have never worked in government so I can’t answer how it matters there, but few non-profit staff has advanced degrees. Maybe there’s no need for it to move up in often limited organizations. Those with MPA’s are assumed to want more money, but non-profits tend not to have that capacity. Unless you have the work experience to support the MPA, you won’t earn more money or be hired for a position w/ the MPA alone.

      I have not met many people with one, in my field (that I’ve been in for 20 yrs). Most of my peers either have an MBA, CFRE (fundraising certification) or nothing. I might have been selected for an Ex. Director position because I had my MPA, but I don’t know (never asked).

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      I work at a local goverment health department, and the degree required for a certain classification level is an MPH or masters in a related field (MPA is listed as an example, MBA is not). I suspect the value of an MPA vs. MBA for government work would depend on the specific agency or agencies you hope to join.

  171. Angwyshaunce*

    Having a rough time today.

    Work is very mentally taxing. The personal projects I’m working on at home are also taxing. I find the harder I focus on one, the more the other starts slipping.

    This is nothing new, but now I’m trying so hard to be productive with both, and it’s not going well. Work is important as it funds my life and interests, but the personal projects are what keep me happy and satisfied.

    Has anyone else struggled with keeping these things balanced?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      All the time. I don’t have any answers, as I’m usually just making it up as I go along, but you’re definitely not alone. I hope things ease up a bit for you soon.

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        Thank you. I’m sure many people go through this, guess I’m just looking for some solidarity.

        I think lack of sleep last night and annoying social obligations this weekend are exacerbating the frustration.

  172. RentalCarJerk*

    I asked a few weeks ago about feeling obligated to get my coworkers to and from a yearly work retreat (3 hours away) because I’m one of the few that has a car. This year I wasn’t going to be able to offer rides back home because I planned a personal event for the evening after the retreat. You guys gave me great advice and me feel a lot better about the situation.

    Well, that went belly up when the boss changed the location to City B, just one week in advance! This retreat has been planned for City A for several months and City B is nearly 4 hours from the original location and 4 hours from our home town.

    I let my boss know immediately that I could no longer make the retreat if it is being held in City B because of my personal plans I had scheduled in City A. In my opinion, I was made to feel like I should have disclosed my personal plans (which are set to begin hours after work retreat activities are over) and they would have planned (the 25 person retreat) around me. Boss suggested I could just head to City A after the retreat is over and that I should really figure out how to attend the retreat.

    Am I being an ass by offering to come if a rental car is provided for me? I am not in a position to put several hundred miles on my personal vehicle for a work retreat (note: not a networking event that could help further my career). I also was completely understanding that I might have to sit out now that the location was changed but I got a guilt trip about how we don’t do retreats frequently. I have driven coworkers to every previous retreat using my own gas and putting wear and tear on my own vehicle without compensation.

    How would you have handled this? (Sorry if its rambley, I just needed to vent I suppose)

    1. fposte*

      This sounds like an all-round PITA. I’m not sure that that translates into a rental car (or that the situation is solved by that), though. Are other people being provided with rental cars for this? If not, I think it’s a tall order to ask that you be specially singled out for that; it also wouldn’t be immediately clear to me why the one additional hour made a difference in whether you took your car or not.

      However: my guess is this is really about the folly of this retreat in the first place, the repeated expectation that you schlep your co-workers, and the quixotic last-minute change of location to a place that’s even farther away than an already demandingly far distance. And I don’t think a rental car will solve that problem anyway. If you can stick it, I think I’d say “I can’t do an 8 hour trip in the other direction on a week’s notice, sorry,” and go to City A as planned, enjoying your retreat-free weekend. That’s a reasonable thing to do, it avoids the rental car question, and it means your employer, not you, has to deal with the co-worker schlepp.

      1. RentalCarJerk*

        I think your second paragraph really gets at my feelings. The plans I made in City A aren’t something I can reschedule without losing a few hundred dollars so I need to keep those plans regardless of whether I go to the retreat or not (which means 1 extra hour becomes like 4). I’m perfectly happy to sit this one out and offered to still help plan logistics like food, but it was insinuated that I should really be there. I think another person is getting a car as well.

        But yeah, at the end of the day you’re right. I’m a little tired of being the de facto designated driver and retreat chauffeur for work events. I don’t really love driving to begin with and I definitely resent having to be the default person. Thanks for your input, I feel better already.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, this whole thing just sounds maddening. At least they covered the rental car, and hopefully your detour means you won’t have to carpool your co-workers.

          1. RentalCarJerk*

            Yeah, for sure. The thing is that I actually enjoy my coworkers for the most part, but because I’m always driving I need to focus on the road (my part of the US is notorious for awful drivers) and don’t get to “bond” with them (which is the point of these retreats supposedly). It’ll be nice to have the trip back to myself to decompress though.

    2. Psyche*

      The rental car doesn’t seem like it would work if you want to make a detour to another city for your personal plans after the retreat. I don’t think you are bing unreasonable to say that you made plans around the retreat and can’t really change them at this point. I don’t understand why they would change cities at the last minute like that!

      1. RentalCarJerk*

        Boss agreed to the rental car even for the detour city (I think because they realize changing location last minute wasn’t great). If they’d said “Oh sorry to hear that, we’ll miss you!” instead of that I should make it work I wouldn’t have asked for one. I guess it was more of a leverage thing if they insisted I be there. Ugh, thanks for letting me vent though.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nah, you’re fine requesting a rental car for even the original trip. It’s a company expense and they should take care of that. It’s not priced by mileage anyways so the extra detour is just a perk for making yourself available for the event, IMO.

      But aren’t you expensive your mileage for the trip?! That’s the whole point of expensive mileage is because it takes care of the toll it takes on your personal vehicle.

      1. RentalCarJerk*

        I was never made aware of that option in past years (I’m a grad student, so new to the “work force”). It’s on me for not following up on it sooner, but our per mile expense is kind of crappy so I’m hoping to go the rental route.

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t have specified why and would’ve held firm that I couldn’t go. I wouldn’t put it past them to pressure you to drive other people or do other stuff since they’re paying for the car. Also: What if something goes wrong? What if retreat stuff is delayed or there’s weather or road stuff that stops you getting to City A on time or at all? What if they suddenly say they don’t want you driving at night or whatever? What if agreeing to the retreat means you miss out on your plans? Aren’t you liable for anything car-related once you leave work/the retreat?

          Is it too late to get reimbursed for the prior mileage? And, as it’s mandatory, are they paying you for attendance?

  173. Psyche*

    Any tips on dealing with sales reps? I am having terrible luck. We need some new (expensive) equipment. For some reason I can’t get the reps to respond to me with a quote. I can’t put anything into the purchasing system without the quote. I have the money, I know exactly what we want to order, I just can’t place the order!

    3. Angwyshaunce*

      No advice, but I’ve been there too. I spent months trying to get equipment from a company, only to be met with radio silence. The story gets better though.

      Four months later, some reps came in to see me and ask if there was anything I needed. With a smile, I told them that I had actually been waiting for a response from them for several months. They were absolutely mortified, and said they would get me the information immediately.

      That was about five years ago, and I never heard from them since.

      So I feel your pain.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How are you contacting them? Are you sure the contact is the correct one? Often they come and go so quickly your contact info may be incorrect! Have you called and asked directly for your local rep?

      They probably don’t know you and you’re not on their client list so they’re assuming you’re not important. What you do is reach out to their general mailbox if that exists and it’ll get assigned to someone.

      Has your company had a reputation of asking for quotes and then never purchasing? Some will write you off if there’s a track record there as well, it’s such a horrible business practice but what you see as expensive new equipment is a drop in the bucket for their commission often times. I’ve been there with purchasing, it’s frustrating AF.

      Call them. Leave them messages. Call them back again.

    5. Observer*

      Is this equipment you can find on line? In a lot of cases, you can request a quote on line, even if they don’t have prices listed. In my experience, that will generally get some sort of usable response.

  174. Calling Brits*

    Hi all.

    A question about British offices. Has anyone worked in a “cube farm” in the UK? Are they a thing here?

    I’ve spent my whole career in open plan offices, sharing a bank of desks at least half the time. My Dad had a whole room in his high ranking civil service thing and my mum works in an old house so they share what were the rooms. I’m in my early 30s and a casual field and wonder if I’ve just missed cube farms as referenced here, or if we don’t really do them.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      My offices in the UK don’t have cubicles, they are all as you described- just open plans or offices for some people. It is funny when I go there I am overwhelmed by all the people RIGHT there, and when my colleagues come to the US they complain about how the cubicles make them feel like they can’t talk to people or collaborate.

      1. Calling Brits*

        Haha I’m so team Brit on that – I feel slightly claustrophobic-adjacent just looking at pictures of offices with weird baby walls cluttering the place up.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          LOL! And I am all like “why are you so close to me?!” and then when I look up to stare into space for a minute while deep in thought there is always someone right there that I make weird inadvertent eye contact with.

          1. Calling Brits*

            Yeah, gazing off deep in thought without making eye contact is a skill we pick up early

  175. Veryanon*

    Venting, sorry…
    It’s been a rough week. I work in HR but I often feel like a glorified baby-sitter for adults.
    Just this week I had to…
    *Explain to a fairly new employee why she couldn’t just show up at 10:00 if her scheduled start time was 8:30 (“but I call my manager! what’s the big deal? I’m still getting my work done!”) – this lady has been a thorn in my side since she started. She’s met with me several times to complain that her work is boring, she wants to do something different, and by the way, what is our company doing to support her visa application to stay in the US? (she is not in a highly-skilled position that could justify an H1-B visa and we never promised anything to her.)
    *Fire someone who got into a drunken brawl with two other employees (one of them his girlfriend) at an off-site company event. He took no ownership for his actions at all.
    *Respond to an EEOC claim from someone we terminated who claimed she was discriminated against, while we had clearly documented performance conversations with her, including a PIP, for almost a year.
    *Listen to an employee “Sansa” rant about why she doesn’t want to work with another employee “Fergus” because Fergus asks too many questions about their work and she doesn’t feel like training Fergus. Every solution I proposed, she shot down. I finally said, what do you want us to do to help you? She said, I don’t know. Ok then.

    It goes on and on, and yes, this is all part of the job, but I’m just exhausted today.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      That’s a lot – no wonder you’re exhausted! I hope you get some time to yourself this weekend, with tea and blankets and kittens, or whatever makes you happy.

      1. Lena Clare*

        Tea, blankets, and kittens sounds like the perfect combination to improve things!

    2. Southern Yankee*

      Wow. No wonder you need to vent. I’ve had weeks like that and they never suck any less. At least it’s Friday? At least your company has a great HR function so that the managers and employees are left to try to deal with terrible stuff on their own? Is any of this helping? Go home, unplug from work, and take care of you this weekend with whatever soothes your soul.

  176. Jules the First*

    File this under good problems to have, but…

    I’ve just been promoted at work, and it’s good news but I’m also very visible – there aren’t that many women at this level, all of them are significantly older than I am, and several people have already (in just a couple of days) pulled me aside to say we should talk about a roadmap to making partner, meaning that I’m going to be given big, visible opportunities to rack up partner-worthy achievements, so I’m only going to get more visible. The senior women in the company have been fabulously supportive (they took me out to celebrate as soon as they heard) and by and large the senior men have been lovely as well. My problem is that I keep getting congratulated by people (think phone calls and emails with no other purpose than to say congrats; interrupting me when I’m having coffee or lunch with friends to say well done, mentioning it at the start or end of meetings, etc) and I have no idea what to say in response.

    “Thanks” seems like not enough on its own, and “Thanks, I was expecting this” seems impolite, but I also don’t want to fall into the trap of downplaying it and saying it was unexpected, because I’ve worked my tail off for this (and ok, I didn’t actually think they’d do it this year but I knew I *deserved* it this year). So what do I say?

    1. Psyche*

      I think “thanks” is sufficient, especially if they are interrupting you while having coffee or lunch. Or you could go with “Thanks. I’m very excited about it.”

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      What about “I’m looking forward to…” whatever it is. Some new challenge related to the work, or a specific project, or a person you’re going to be working with. You can even be as vague as “it’s a great opportunity,” or as trivial as “I have an office with a window!”

      It’s like any form of quick social interaction – the important thing is the interaction itself, not the specific content. Have a couple of stock answers ready, and you should be fine. Congratulations on the new job!

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations!
      “Thank you! I am very excited for the opportunity” Is perfectly fine and sufficient. Do not downplay your accomplishments!

  177. Matilda Jefferies*

    I just want to share a couple of work-related things that I’m really proud of lately.

    First, I’ve been networking up a storm. I hate the word, but the activity itself is not nearly as dreadful as it sounds. It’s really just finding people who have interesting jobs, and making plans to talk to them – which is not nearly as intimidating a concept (for me.) And honestly, it’s been going really well. Every person I’ve approached has been happy to talk to me, including a couple who were absolutely delighted. I’ve gotten lots of good ideas, and new people to talk to, and the whole thing has just been a really positive experience!

    The other thing is that I stood up for myself the other day. I had the (unfortunately very common) experience of having a colleague shoot down an idea of mine, then immediately send an email to our manager suggesting the exact same idea. So – I told my manager about it. I said I didn’t expect her to do anything in particular, but I wanted her to know that it was going on, and also that this was the latest in a series of weird power-grabbing moves by this colleague. She agreed that there wasn’t much she could do about it, but she was very supportive and sympathetic, and she appreciated me telling her. It wasn’t a life-changing outcome by any means, but I’m very glad I took the opportunity to say “this is happening, and it’s not okay.”

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t know why your manager thinks she can’t do something about it. She can, she just won’t.

  178. Lena Clare*

    Has anyone read that bonkers article (I’ll post a link in the comments) about Danielle Steele working 20-22 hours per day, eating only toast and chocolate bars, and moaning about millennials who want a work-life balance? I am highly dubious that it can be true (she has a flair for fiction – I mean, come on!) but if it is I can’t see how anyone can uphold that as any kind of healthy standard.

    2. Calling Brits*

      I was going to write something snarky about avocado on my toast, but that’s cus my brain failed to acknowledge a 20 hour work day and read it as a week

      1. LaDeeDa*

        LOL! I was sharing a recipe that used a few avocados with my Millennial friend and then ended my text with “thank goodness I am Gen X and own my home.” hahaha we both died.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      “Her son told her that he never works past a certain time at the office, a model of that elusive work-life balance. Steel balks. “They expect to have a nice time,” she says. “And pardon me, but I think your twenties and a good part of your thirties are about working hard so that you have a better quality of life later on. I mean, I never expected that quality of life at 25. I had three jobs at the same time, and after work, I wrote. Now it’s a promise that it’s all going to be fun.”

      She has literally always done what she loves, nothing else. Her parents supported her, then she sold books… she never worked a job she hated or tolerated to work on her craft. It is incredibly lucky and privileged, and it is a shame she can’t recognize that.

      1. Lore*

        She also had several extremely
        wealthy husbands. I will say though that she legit does write all
        of her books herself.

          1. Amethyst*

            She cannot possibly. Her editor(s) have a heavy hand in whatever she writes. If you compare some of her writing samples (particularly from the mid-2000s, when the quality of her books took a nosedive, so much so that I actually emailed her with my concerns & she actually responded*), there is NO WAY any of her better books haven’t been heavily edited & revised.

            *Her email was directly from her apologizing for the shoddy quality & said her longtime editor had quit/retired (I can’t remember which now) & she was still searching for one. So I’d believe the books released that were heavily repetitive in that time period is actually her writing, not the better story quality books.

            I used to be a freelance editor. Some authors can’t write their way out of a paper bag, & that’s where their editor comes in. Or a ghostwriter.

  179. Calling Brits*

    So last month I had a first round job interview for a charity running a public health initiative with local government and the health service. It’s running in three local authority areas. The interview panel included someone from the health service, I was pretty lackluster (imposter syndrome), and they ghosted me.

    Today I had a group (!?!) interview for the same job with a different local authority (only time I’ve ever reused a cover letter.) that went really well and the same woman from the health service was on the panel.

    I assume she recognised me, but we didn’t acknowledge each other. What are you supposed to do in that situation, and how much does the previous interview count?

  180. Professional Merchandiser*

    Any female welders on this site? My granddaughter has decided to be a welder and any helpful advice would be appreciated. My main concern is that she’s so petite I’m afraid the equipment will be too heavy for her. Also, does anyone know of a website that sells work supplies for women? I’m talking about things like work gloves sized for women’s hands, work boots in small sizes, ect. I used to get work gloves from one years ago but can’t remember the name of it. (Yes, I know you shouldn’t end a sentence in a preposition, but…)

    1. Mephyle*

      You’re fine. First of all you’re allowed to end a sentence in a preposition (that rule against it is a fake one), and secondly, you didn’t actually do so anyway. Sorry I can’t help with the crux of your problem.

      1. valentine*

        My main concern is that she’s so petite
        If you’ve said this to her, take it back. Her body, her rules. Trust her to make her own decisions.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Here’s side issue advice: once your g-daughter has her work items, have her BOLDLY mark them so they are easily recognizable as hers. (My aunt’s male construction coworkers kept stealing her tools at work to harass her.)
      I hope your g-daughter is successful at welding or whatever she chooses to do!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t underestimate a petite woman and her strength/ability to handle equipment! She will learn how to handle the equipment in her training and only then can you truly know if there will be an issue. We had a tiny woman in a job that required heavy equipment and a lot of the guys were like “Oh yeah sure right”, boom boom boom killed it, best one in the shop quickly. They all shut their traps after that whenever another woman her size walked in and understood that looks are deceiving!

      I don’t know of any specific websites but if she goes to the store to speak with them directly, they can often custom order smaller sizes or point her in the right direction for custom sizes if they’re not able to do custom orders.

    4. Southern Yankee*

      Do you know how heavy the equipment actually is? If not, maybe ask your granddaughter if she does. It’s very possible she has done research and knows what is required and that she can do it. A quick google search for women’s welding gear came up with Charm and Hammer, Angel Fire at Arc Zone, weldersource, weldingmart, and lincoln electric among others.

    5. SMH RN*

      Not a welder but my dad is in the industry. In Canada I always go to Marks for work boots etc…they have a website. Equipment being heavy will depend on the type of welding she winds up doing- field vs shop, more artistic or industrial etc. Biggest thing I hear from people is to be aware of the culture. It can sometimes still be a bit of boys club around here anyway, though that is changing. My dad is older and quite open about not enjoying crude humour so guys rein it in around him a bit but it’s not always the case. We need more women in the trades though so good for her!

      1. Professional Merchandiser*

        Thanks for all the comments/advice. Yes, I’m kind of worried about the “Boy’s Club” aspect of it, but I know she will have to work that out for herself. No, I don’t really know how heavy the equipment is. My husband teaches industrial maintenance classes at our local community college (but not welding) and he said he didn’t think she could cope with the equipment but I don’t know if that’s true or just Grandpa talking. I know those shields they wear look awfully heavy. Good idea about tools. I have shared this story here before, but when I used to do reset merchandising the men I worked with were forever borrowing my tools and then forget to return them. They wouldn’t bring their own because they didn’t like the company-issued tool boxes. (They were bright yellow, and looked girlie to them.) I finally had enough and bought one of those sets of tools made for women with bright pink handles. Those guys couldn’t return those tools fast enough!! I realize that’s not the issue you were referring to, but it’s still a bother not having your things even if no ill intent is meant. I will keep reading and will pass on what I learn.

        1. No Green No Haze*

          For women’s work pants that fit well and are sturdy, I really like Duluth Trading Company. Dickies used to make decent, much less expensive, carpenter jeans for women but they’ve been discontinued :( .

          As you know, anything feminine she can put on her decent tools, like Hello Kitty stickers for instance, is a good theft deterrent for most light-fingered men. Their misogyny overcomes their petty larceny in a lot of cases. Mostly-male touring entertainment production companies keep their follow spot gear (headset, belt pack, XLR cable, framed gel colors) from being stolen by mostly-male local crews by putting them in the most pink, sparkly girlie children’s backpacks they can find — Disney princesses, My Little Ponies, Dora The Explorer, you name it. It works. It’s a known thing. Tampon boxes are your friends too.

    6. LCL*

      There is a subreddit called blue collar women she should check out. There’s lots of women in the trades.

    7. SciDiver*

      I don’t work as a welder but my grandfather taught me out in his workshop on the arc welder. The equipment can be heavy but that’s not really an impossible obstacle–I’ve worked a few jobs where lifting/moving/handling heavy things is part of the day-to-day, and I was amazed how quickly I got strong enough to do things without any help (and sometimes out-perform some of the men). I love my pink safety goggles and my pink and grey steel toe shoes! I’ve found a few hardware stores and bigger chains will carry work gloves in a size W because their standard S-M-L-XL is made for men, and Duluth Trading has some really good quality work clothing for women, particularly their firehose pants. I’ve bought work pants from Carhartt before but their women’s line isn’t nearly as well-designed as their men’s clothing.

      Best of luck to your granddaughter, we need more folks in skilled trades and especially more women!

  181. FrustratedGoingAnon*

    Guys, I am pretty annoyed. Just need to vent. First let me say I work for a small, family-owned company that is only somewhat dysfunctional. This is an office admin job.

    So for the last year or so, I’ve been coming in 20 minutes early every day and getting a little overtime every week, which really helps my paychecks — especially since I had been in this job five years with no raise. (I did ask, they wouldn’t even give me evaluations, much less any COLA.) It started with me coming in 5 minutes early, then 10, then I stopped at the 20 minute mark, because it just works well. You know, traffic. Time to make tea. Etc.

    Then, after asking for more work last September — I was bored — I took on some additional duties. At the time, I was promised a raise if I did well with the new work. I received excellent feedback on my work.

    As a side note, this spring, I did lots of research on pay raise negotiation. I prepared a detailed argument to explain why I deserved more. I was going to ask for a substantial raise, because I am underpaid for my position, and the lack of COLAs was ridiculous. Anyway.

    Fast-forward to March. We have a small, closed-door meeting of front office folks. Jane (co-owner/my manager) tells us that sadly, the company is about to lose our biggest contract customer. This is our biggest single source of revenue, and it’s a huge blow for the firm. The company was sold to a new owner, and they will not renew our contract. The basic gist of the meeting is that there will be serious belt-tightening across the firm. We have to make changes, do some layoffs, and deal with having what will be a very lean year until we can find more replacement business. (The sales folks are working their tails off.)

    After the meeting when we learned about the issue, I thought, ‘Shoot, now I’ll never get a raise. Screw it.’ And I figured there was no hope. But then, when I got paid the last Friday of March — lo and behold, I got a 4% raise without asking. I’m sure it’s because of the extra work. I was beyond thrilled. Totally delighted. Finally, finally I started to feel valued for my hard work.

    But then, this past week, I had a standard 1:1 with Jane. She said she had been reviewing the overtime records. And she said that I couldn’t work overtime any more. She will let me come in and leave 15 minutes early (uh, thanks?), but I can’t work extra.

    So, get this. The extra money I was previously making from overtime amounted to more than the extra cash I’ll be getting from my raise. From now on, I’ll bring home LESS net pay than before the raise, since I can’t do overtime.

    Granted, I knew I was gaming the system. I always suspected the day would come when I was told to stop doing it. But did it have to be now, within a few weeks of FINALLY getting my raise? It’s so frustrating. Argh.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I clinched when you said that they lost their biggest client and this is causing them to feel that crunch so much to start downsizing even. That’s not a red flag, it’s a red blinking billboard right on top of the building saying “Byeeeeeee.” Please for the love of everything cute in the universe know that you need to be ready for the worst, when you let yourself become over extended and dependent on one client, you will crash when the client decides they can get better elsewhere. That’s exactly how all my former bosses who depended heavily one one source of revenue crashed into the wall.

      I understand your frustration with this. Given their fine combing over their numbers, it’s why they’re cracking down on OT. They’re going to be cutting benefits if you have them next, so please get all your annual exams or additional prescriptions in line because again, it may not be as much of a doomsday as I’m fearing for you but this isn’t my first rodeo :(

    3. valentine*

      So you’re still underpaid and undervalued.

      Someone commented here that, if you can’t afford employees, you don’t have a business. You have an expensive hobby. Perhaps this place is more dysfunctional than you can appreciate from the inside.

      1. Observer*

        I don’t think it’s more dysfunctional. But it clearly IS in trouble. Start looking for a new job.

        If anyone asks why you’re looking you can tell them that your company has indicated that it’s in financial trouble.

        1. FrustratedGoingAnon*

          Thank you. That’s a very good point.

          For the record, I am currently job searching.

  182. MyLittleMonkeyMyCircus*

    Quick Summary: My daughter is being asked to train new inexperienced Co-op students who are making 11% more than her, after being told the Company has no money to pay her and her same year Co-op peers market rate.
    Longer story: My daughter is in the 13th month of a 16 months Engineering Co-op. Her and the other Co-op students in Engineering and other programs are getting paid 20 to 50 percent less than the going rate for the market and location. (When she interviewed and was selected the next day she had 2 hours to accept and if she rejected the offer she could have been asked to leave the Co-op program). The company advertised one salary and then offered another salary.
    Can’t go back and fix that, however the question I have is something that she is trying her best to work out. She and one of her colleagues did a power point presentation in February to raise the issue of how to improve the Co-op experience, through their own initiative, and one of the issues was salary. They did research on what all the other companies in that area are paying their Co-op students and her company was on the very bottom of the list by at least 20 percent. Her supervisor (a non-engineer) said she and HR would look into it, and then got back to say their was nothing they could do, they have no money. She was told however that all the Co-op students are so valuable and that their help is really appreciated in their last 4 months as they train the new Co-op students that start in May. Well the brand new Co-op students have started, and they are making 11% more than the ones that have been there for a year. They received their letter of offer in March, after my daughter’s and her colleague’s powerpoint presentation. She and her peers are frustrated. After talking with her, we determined that her plan of action is as follows:
    1) See next week after their one year performance evaluation if a raise is mentioned, if not, each one of them will ask for one
    2) Speak with her Engineering supervisor (he is not her Co-op supervisor that refused the raise request for the group) to see what advice he may have on how to approach the organization or her Co-op Supervisor about a raise
    3) All six of the one year Co-op students will go their Co-op advisors at university to seek some advice on what they can do, and also to let them know some of the other issues with the company (hers is useless, but she feels her colleague’s business Co-op advisor may be useful)
    4) If no resolution from above, set up a meeting with her supervisor and all same year Co-op peers to discuss this issue
    5) If no resolution, she is going to consider the consequences of either addressing the issue with someone else, or submit her two week resignation (she has already completed the required months to get Co-op designation on her degree)
    6) She is not sure if it is worth to go higher up, while she has no desire to work for this company in the future based on her one year experience with them, it is an international company and she doesn’t want to somehow get black balled down the road in the industry
    Advice sought: What other actions or steps can she do to assist her and her same year peers? Are there some issues or concerns that she should consider in the decisions or approach?
    For those of you that will raise it, no I am not a helicopter parent. My daughter is super smart, bright, independent, and I am proud of her. She also rarely seeks out mom’s advice. When she does share things, I listen; I refrain from advice dumping on her; I ask her probing questions to get her to think of different options and consequences. Sometimes we brain storm different ideas and options at her discretion. She has said that I can post here for advice. I really appreciate any advice that the group her has, or if Allison would like to take on this question!

    1. Anono-me*

      If she is in the US, she may want to touch base with the National Society of Professional Engineers.

    2. Calling Brits*

      God I feel for your daughter. I did a year long “paid” internship thing and put a lot of effort pointing out how they could improve things and how we were being treated pretty unfairly. They implemented a lot if our suggestions, but not until we left. On the one hand it’s good that the efforts another intern and I made to improve things paid off, but it was frustrating and upsetting watching the next batch get better training and more money (for less good work. Everyone acknowledged the two of us were superstars in a particularly good intake) and not benefit ourselves.

      As an example if, like all the staff bar two, you had a car they’d pay your bus fair to work, but if you didn’t they wouldn’t. They absolutely acknowledged we couldn’t possibly afford a car and that it was unfair, and they did pay the next generations bus fair, but we weren’t given it post-dated and I don’t think we were supposed to find out they’d done it.

      It felt petty not being cool about the changes being implemented, and I felt better for admitting to myself that I’d be cross the company wasn’t learning from my experience if they did nothing, so no matter what I’d be unhappy. It would have meant a lot if the company acknowledged that they’d been unfair and had taken our suggestions on board, even without back dated pay. I tried to find satisfaction on making things better for other people, and being someone who advocates for change.

      1. MyLittleMonkeyMyCircus*

        This is a good way to think about it, you were able to make a change for others, even if you didn’t directly benefit from it. I told her that in 20 years when she looks back at this she will remember how she was treated and she will be happy to know that she learned from it to never treat anyone in her career unfairly like this.

    3. Southern Yankee*

      Disclaimer: I’m not an engineer, so take this as an non-expert opinion. There are definitely some red flags about the company (adverting one salary, paying another; 2 hours to accept, etc). However, I would steer clear of making this about the new year co-ops being paid 11% higher. They can argue any number of reasons for it (market rates have gone up, different labor conditions, different budget conditions, etc). They may be bull or they may be legit and may or may not have anything to do with the power point presentation – but even if the stated reasons are bull, they are very unlikely to change their decision based on that argument. If your daughter’s year co-op class are that far under market, aren’t getting the training they need out of the program, or are otherwise being taken advantage of they should raise those concerns with the employer and attempt to get the rectified. They should definitely discuss it with the co-op advisors, especially to gauge the normalcy of the treatment, and perhaps have the school reconsider if this company should be able to participate in the future if they are taking advantage of co-ops. The school will probably have a lot more standing and ability to get any changes made.

      Your daughter may have identified a valid issue here, and if so, I applaud her effort to get it corrected. However, there is probably a limit to how much she can pursue. Maybe the performance review and the co-op advisor (she already tried once with the power point) ideas. If she does those few things and the salary doesn’t change, then the most viable option is either accept it or leave. At a certain point the company isn’t going to change its mind, no matter how much you *prove* they should. Sometimes, all you can do is decide how to react to someone else’s behavior because you can’t control them, only you.

      1. MyLittleMonkeyMyCircus*

        Yeah, talking to her sister she raised the point that leaving at some point has to be a viable option. Thank you for your comment.

    4. MaureenC*

      Can she contact a labor attorney? Because I don’t know what her options re collective bargaining, etc would be.

    5. Co-oper*

      At the end of the day, it might be one of those situations where it sucks (but is not dangerous) but is time limited. It’s only 4 more months. Quitting on principle may feel good, but weigh that against the resume benefits of mentoring new co-ops and gaining that different set of experience.

  183. Nacho*

    Applied for a promotion twice in the past two months (2 positions opened up), and apparently both times the system ate my application. Not even sure I want the promotion, but I’m still pissed to learn I wasn’t considered for such a stupid reason.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My teeth are grinding and this feeds my hatred for fully automated systems, they are not to be trusted.

  184. Resources for learning R and/or Power BI?*

    Anyone point me to any resources for self-learning for R and/or Power BI?

    I’m getting training through work but like to do more on my own too :)

    2. anonagain*

      Garrett Grolemund and Hadley Wickham’s R for Data Science is available online. So is Hadley’s Advanced R. The RStudio website has lots of resources from cheatsheets, webinars, and so on. I also used the R Cookbook site pretty regularly when I was starting out.

      The R community is pretty great as far as sharing resources and putting information online. R-bloggers is an aggregator that can be a good way to discover new R blogs. The R community on Twitter is also quite active. If there are any R or statistical programming meetups in your area, I recommend going.

      If you are looking for a course, edX almost certainly has something. Coursera has an R programming course taught by Roger Peng, Brian Caffo, and Jeff Leek. I’ve not taken it myself, but I used some of Peng’s books early on (I don’t remember exact titles, but you can find them on Leanpub) and they were great.

      I hope something in all that is helpful to you. R is fun!

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        We used the Coursera R programming course for internal training, and it was very successful.

  185. auburn*

    I’m kind of being a jerk here but I’m struggling with getting unreasonably annoyed all the time with a colleague. He’s a nice guy. And very good at the core parts of his job. So here’s the thing that’s irritating me.–I find myself just getting so irritated at his overconfidence. He’s by far the youngest member of our Sr. team. He’s very knowledgeable about his particular job (communications), but he knows almost nothing about our industry and he’s got 10 years less experience than everyone else on the team. 20-30 years less experience than several of us. But that doesn’t’ stop him from having opinions about EVERYTHING. He’s a young privileged white guy in an organization where that is not the norm. I am generally a “good ideas can come from anywhere” kind of person and work really hard to make sure everyone feels herd even when they may not be the expert in the room on something. but I’ve honestly never worked with someone who is just so casually confident that all of his opinions are worth listening to. He doesn’t do things like speak over people. And he defers to our experience once you point out what he’s missing. He’s a good listener. So he’s not a jerk about it at all. But he’s just so damn willing to speak up when he has nothing new to contribute. He’ll just randomly say “well in my opinion…” even if an area that has nothing to do with his work.

    Is there a way to address this that doesn’t just seem like sour grapes? Part of me feels like I’m just jealous that he feels so confident taking up space and it took me so damn long to get to that point. By the time in my career where I had 50% of the opinions he did, I was a bonafide expert in my field. I did tell him in his review that I think he would benefit from asking a lot more questions rather than jumping to expressing opinions but it was within the context of an overly very positive review so I’m not sure if it landed that much. I’m sr. to him and he reports to me on about 30% of his job so I have standing to address concerns but I can’t find a way to frame it that doesn’t sound like I resent him for being a young confident dude. Which, well…yeah, I guess I do. My boss–only other man on our team– thinks he hung the moon and I think suffers a bit from the “assumed competence” angle that seems to come with being a well educated white man in an organization made up mostly of women of color.

    1. Anon-Today*

      Since your boss is cut from the same cloth, it might not be worth addressing to Dude, but perhaps addressing to the boss. Do you think the boss would be amenable to something like

      “Hey, boss, got a minute? The way Dude was talking in the meeting a little while go… that’s kind of his way, and he’s a smart guy and a nice guy, but he’s ruffling some feathers by being a bit of a know-it all outside of his area. He’s really good at incorporating institutional knowledge once he knows it, but things get derailed when he jumps in prematurely. I’m sure if you called on one of us before letting him speak, he’d absorb what we had to say and come up with better ideas.”

      Does that sound like it could work? It would kind of depend on how much your boss trusts you.

      (I work in an all-white environment, and the blue-eyed white men have a sense of entitlement that I find severely annoying. The women at the top all have blue eyes coincidentally, and they’re absolutely sure they got where they are by merit, and it’s just a coincidence that all the people from other countries and people of color have quit)

      1. Observer*

        The way Dude was talking in the meeting a little while go… that’s kind of his way, and he’s a smart guy and a nice guy, but he’s ruffling some feathers by being a bit of a know-it all outside of his area. He’s really good at incorporating institutional knowledge once he knows it, but things get derailed when he jumps in prematurely.

        Is this actually true? Is he ruffling anyone’s feathers, other than Auburn’s? And is he actually derailing conversations?

        Auburn is going to have to be willing to name names if she wants to claim that he’s bothering “people” not just herself. And if he’s not derailing the conversation, she’s going to look really bad if she claims that he is – it’s the kind of thing you can see.

    2. Nacho*

      I’m sorry, but as long as he’s not being rude about offering his oppinion, like talking over people or insisting he’s an expert in things he’s not/not deferring to the experts when their expertise is brought up, I don’t think you can do anything except quietly seethe about this. There’s no nice way to say “stop participating in discussions” if that’s all he’s doing.

    3. Batgirl*

      I think this is genuinely annoying. I work with an older privileged guy who coincidentally used to work in my old (unrelated) field and now works in this one. In old field he progressed much further than I ever did but when I discuss the profession with him he has alarmingly little insight. Now he’s seen as a sort of incoming superstar to this field, but he has no specialised knowledge whatsoever. He has common sense and good intentions….that’s literally it. Worse, on occasion, he has let his privileged blind spots colour his approach (“Hey if our clients can’t spell does that have anything to do with their accents?”). I try to think of privilege as missed learning opportunities related to background. I know that my co-worker responds pretty well to push back and challenge, it’s simply that he isn’t given it often enough. I’m glad you are pulling your guy up short. I would go further along that route like “try not to speak until you’ve heard from the expert first” or “try phrasing your points as questions and not absolute solutions”. He’s old enough to think before he speaks.

  186. Workaholic*

    “Not my job”

    This phrase is one of my peeves and frustrates me (drives me insane) when i hear it. Yesterday a co-worker said “i don’t know how to save client money in my current role (she’s been In this role 1.5 years). In my former role i did x, y, z.” I told her it’s the same thing: do x, y, z. She responded “that’s not part of my job description. I’m not doing it. Plus I’m leaving in a few months anyhow.”
    Commence twitching and mental freak out on my side. When she came back from break she apologized for how her response sounded ( not that her response changed in any way – she just apologized for how it sounded).
    I accepted the apology, and deleted the email i was about to send my boss asking how to deal with this. I did tell her she could also do A, B, C – which she’s never run into in her current role. Which is odd to me, because i did a, b, c and x, y, z in my former role too. However – “not my job” isn’t part of my work ethic.

    This “not my job” mindset could be part of why 3 people in my same position and 2 people above me saved our client a combined $1,500 last year, whereas i saved our client $56,000. I see it, i handle it.

    Should this be an issue i address with my boss? Or just let it go? I’m happy being a to performer, and if the company felt employees were slacking they’d bring it up individually, right? Honestly, not seeing the opportunities or letting other team members catch them wouldn’t bother me so much because i know we’re all crazy busy. It’s the “not my job” attitude that’s bugging me. And the savings i work is while doing my actual job, nothing crazy.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I have mixed feelings about “not my job.”

      On the one hand, it can easily be an excuse for people to do the absolutely bare minimum not to get fired.

      But it can also go the other way, where people are being repeatedly asked to do things they should not being doing, because they’re not being paid to do those things, and those things are actually someone else’s job.

      1. valentine*

        that’s not part of my job description.
        Is she right about this? Is there a junior person who’s meant to do xyz?

        What do you personally get our of saving the client so much more money? What’s in it for her?

        If you think more people should be doing this, can you advocate for that culture change, complete with the massive savings increase?

    2. MaureenC*

      “This “not my job” mindset could be part of why 3 people in my same position and 2 people above me saved our client a combined $1,500 last year, whereas i saved our client $56,000.”

      Leverage that for a raise (and a promotion, if you want).

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I feel you, 100%

      I can deal with this to an extent because I have seen people taken advantage of but it depends on what the role is and their over all compensated. If she’s being paid peanuts, then you get what you pay for and why should she go too far outside what she “signed up for”? You have to give someone initiative.

      See we give bonuses that depend on things like low claims rates, completing orders within our stated lead time and also over all sales in the year. That way someone has something to work towards so that they really care about quality. My raises also depend on showing that I’m ready to watch our expenses as well as look out for our company’s best interest and still keeping customers as happy as possible. There aren’t ridiculous numbers to reach or anything, we always meet them as long as everyone pulls their weight and a little extra sometimes.

      It’s not my “job” to bend the procedures for a customer. Case and point, sometimes it’s the end of someone’s fiscal year and their order won’t ship until the first part of their fiscal year. They want to “pre-pay” their order so it’s in the right budget cycle. This requires me to do things manually, it means I have to flag things and make notes but it’s doable. It’s not my job to be this flexible but it’s good customer service it doesn’t hurt us, it just adds an extra couple of steps. I’m not overworked, I’m not crushed for time, so it’s just really a favor I’ll do for whomever asks for it. I’m a fiend when it comes to hacks when it comes to credit card transaction and daily limits as well. However others in my position are hardasses for no reason “That’s not how we do things, absolutely not, we do it this way and that’s the only way I know and care to know.” etc. It boils my blood that it’s a thing with some people.

      I have had this happen when I take over HR roles as well. “What do you think of this?” “I think that’s fine.” “It’ll add more work for you though, so are you sure?” “It makes my colleague’s life easier, so yeah it’s not my job to watch their PTO and take care of them and watch out for THEIR best interest but that’s their PTO and that extra five clicks of my mouse every few weeks is not going to destroy me by any means. Yes. I’m okay with it.”

      I think since she’s leaving, just let her be and roll your eyes internally, she won’t be your problem soon [thank goodness]. But if she’s actually being one of those sticklers to “not my job” and making your life difficult by it, you should absolutely loop the boss in. Maybe they’ll be okay with her doing that or maybe they’re going to grind down on “Other Duties As Assigned” and get on her for attitude. I know that I don’t handle that kind of mentality well and it’s toxic AF and can spread like a bad cold.

  187. #OhNoNotAgain*

    It’s been fifteen years since someone has asked me to, or instructed me to, commit fraud in the workplace. (It did not end well for that person) Someone essential did that again today, over the phone. Ugh.

    They were frustrated with restrictions placed on certain budgets and said “well, why can’t you just call it XYZ instead of ABC?” They went on and on and I found myself giving a nervous chuckle along with my explanation. I haven’t done the nervous chuckle in many years. I left things at 1. Send me an explanation in writing 2. I will check with so and so.

    But seriously, WHY DO PEOPLE THINK SOMEONE WILL COMMIT FRAUD FOR THEM? In my old age, and my by-the-books-and-by-the-law work ethic, people just don’t try this crap with me.

    Sorry. I just had to get this off my chest.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re banking on you being as shady as they are. They think that it’s not “that big of deal”, they think that rules are just “suggestions”, etc.

      It’s the criminal mindset, they’re often petty and able to make it “okay” in their head by their absurd justification!

      So I’m fast to say “The IRS/Gov Body will see through that in an audit and eat our faces, that’s not possible, it doesn’t work like that.”

      1. #OhNoNotAgain*

        I’m going to borrow your line about, “see through that in an audit they’ll eat our faces off”.
        It bothers me a lot that I can no longer trust one person at all or with anything and now I need to look back, question, and investigate. Another person, I need to see how they will respond now that I know some additional background information.

      1. #OhNoNotAgain*

        What they failed to realize is that once they open that box, I start looking backwards and gathering evidence. A second person has already got themselves stuck between a rock and a hard place because they put something in writing that was not factually true. They stopped communicating about the issue once I asked for the backup documents.

        I’m feeling super angry because these two people presented as on the up and up. I thought highly of both of them and now I seriously need to question everything.

    3. Observer*

      Yech!

      Either they will drop it or they will put it in writing, at which point you ALSO put in writing that you won’t do X because blah, blah. And you bcc yourself to both the company account and a private personal account.

      And, yes, also being VERY careful henceforth.

  188. Neon Tetra*

    Is it legal for two companies working in the same region and the same industry to agree not to consider one another’s employees for jobs?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Why would competitors ever do that O_o

      Yeah, it’s not discrimination because other people’s employees aren’t protected classes or anything like that, which is really the only thing that companies cannot legally do when hiring. Otherwise there’s a huge grey area, I wonder if an employment attorney has ever heard of this kind of rinkydink setup, that sounds so strange…most places love to poach top performers because stick it to the competition as hard as you can, man.

      1. Neon Tetra*

        They’re related and share a parent company, but handle a lot of things separately, including HR and recruiting, and they have different EINs with the IRS. I realize their shared parent company likely changes the answer, but I was still curious if it would be a problem outside of that fact. The agreement reduces turnover somewhat – if someone is unhappy, they can suck it up or gamble on another job with another company. They no longer have the option of going to the sister company, where their skills will definitely transfer and they already know what they’re getting into, and where they get to keep seniority. Before the agreement, there was some shuffling back and forth.

      2. Observer*

        That’s actually not true. In many cases these types of non-competes are not legal.

    2. fposte*

      It depends, but quite possibly not. Those are usually referred to as no-poach agreements, and Apple, Google, Intel, and Adobe settled on a $400+ million suit in 2015 after being sued for theirs. The antitrust division of the federal DOJ has a page about the illegality of many no-poach agreements , stemming apparently from some 2016 action, and there are apparently quite a few cases under review about it in fields ranging from tech to fast food.

      1. Neon Tetra*

        Thank you! I was googling, but I was using “noncompete” and coming up with the obvious results that weren’t what I was looking for.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I think being divisions of the same parent company probably does matter. It could be a provision of an acquisition agreement, or something.

      If there’s a global HR for the parent, maybe you could ask about provisions for an “internal” transfer rather than applying as an outside candidate?

  189. Elizabeth West*

    Congratulations to everyone who found a job, left a crappy job, or rocked at work this week! \0/

    Sending good vibes to anyone who is still struggling!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  190. Mother's Day Weirdness*

    Just got a package in the mail at my home address from the HR department at my husband’s work. Definitely addressed to ME, not my husband. It seems to be some sort of maybe Mother’s Day gift? Bath bomb, candle, etc. It doesn’t SAY Happy Mother’s Day, but it did show up now, and it does say “women of (Company)” in the saluation on the short note included.
    My husband knows nothing about it. I don’t work there. Never have.
    Not sure how to respond…or have my husband respond.

      1. Mother's Day Weirdness*

        I feel like I should at least say thank you, though. But it feels weird contacting the HR person who sent it.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          Perhaps have husband convey your “thanks” to his boss. And leave it at that.

          1. valentine*

            I feel like I should at least say thank you
            I thought you wanted to suggest they not pull this Mother’s Day weirdness in future.

  191. GB*

    I was just offered a promotion today! It’s to be a manager of a team of about 8 people. This will be my first time having any direct reports, though I have been a project lead several times before. I’m a little nervous about managing people for the first time, though I’ve been told that I’m personable and good at setting expectations for my project teams, etc. Does anyone have any recommendations of stuff to read about how to be a good manager? (Other than AAM, of course.) Or any other general advice that you wish you’d heard when you first started managing people?

    1. Anon-Today*

      There are some great lists of “Traits of a great boss” and “traits of a bad boss” on the internet. Inc has some good posts, too.

      When you inherit staff, they will want a clean slate if they feel they needed a second chance, and some will resent you. The #1 hardest thing is that you have to learn from them at first and then transition to being the authority figure. If you can find ways to demonstrate your knowledge, without being a show-off, that would be good.

  192. GoKnights*

    I’m struggling with how my company gives merit increases. In the last 2 years I’ve been “promoted” twice but with no pay increase. Last year I received a 1 percent raise and this year a .5% raise. When I questioned it, I’m told I’m at the top of the pay scale for my role, although a recent promotion has changed that, yet they still only gave me the .5% raise. I was also told to expect a similar raise next year. Their standard practice is to use those at the top of their pay scales merit increases to close the gap with those high performers who are lower on the pay scale. I find this so frustrating and promoting mediocrity.

    I’ve been in this industry for 17 years. 3 of it with this employer (they acquired the last company I was at for 14 years). Every performance review I have is stellar, no negative feedback.

    Is this normal?

    1. Anon-Today*

      It may or may not be normal, but it’s certainly a good reason to look for a new job!

  193. Florida Man Anon*

    Thanks to everyone’s advise from my post last week – sadly, it seems like my bubbliness has caused my job offer to yet again be bait-and-switched? Not sure if I made the right position in accepting it…

    I originally applied to a summer admin position to make some extra cash for my part-time academic program (to switch fields) since I’ve been having trouble finding a full-time position as a recent grad with a short work history. During the interview, I found out that they completely changed the position’s responsibilities from the posting but I didn’t really care since it was still something I could do with my skillset. But now, they emailed me back saying that they want me on board… for different responsibilities yet again! They confirmed that my jovial personality seems to be better suited for this customer-service + admin position rather than it being 100% admin work. And they’re cutting down the hours from the full-time that was promised :/ AND a possible permanent position with the same team would be in a customer-service related job, which is not what I want.

    So what made me accept the position?

    1.) The temp position is with a huge organization so I’m hoping to get my foot in the door for permanent positions in the future (for the sweet, sweet full-time benefits)

    2.) I was able to negotiate for more hours of admin tasks and less of the customer service parts (but it’ll still be mostly customer-service related)

    3.) They promised to teach me nifty data stuff which I’ve always been interested in

    4.) It’ll be a backup career option if my current academic program doesn’t pan out? I’ve never gotten the chance for admin work so I’m looking forward to trying out admin tasks and seeing if I like it or not?

    5.) Free lunches

  194. ilovetoknit*

    I have a first time manager, my 3rd at this company. This is common in our field. However, my first 2 managers were thoughtful and understanding. They were great listeners, rebuked in private, praised in public and other great qualities that make good managers. I am stumped how to handle this new first time manager. Let aside being thoughtful and understanding, he comes across as abrasive and when we push back on very minor things, says things like “this is what you are paid to do” without understanding context. I am sure that I am not just the only one in my team who feels this way. I want to bring this up with my skip level manager, but I am not sure how to do that. Any ideas? I am at a point of switching teams within this huge org, or leaving completely.

  195. What?! She said that?*

    Comments please on this situation?

    Over the last two days our office has been abuzz about some recent events.

    First, some background. We are a branch of an independent professional services provider (ie lawyer – that sort of thing), and have had a couple of changes fairly recently. One of the office’s semi-professionals (ie paralegal) was named our local “HR” person – presumably some training in HR has been given/received but if so, it was not advertised to the rest of the staff. And I add that during her tenure as HR she has circulated a petition asking for support on a local political issue. As well as attending the morning coffee group (a first for her) where the petition was visible on the table, and asking each person if they were going to sign her petition and if they supported the objection.

    More recently the entire organization’s dress code was relaxed to allow dark wash denim. A slippery slope, do I hear you saying? Well yes indeed, two of the partner level team members were soon seen wearing worn, faded denim – the comfortable ones that have been washed so many times they are really soft, and shapeless. Not professional office appropriate by most standards.

    Fast forward to this last week, wherein said HR person has spoken, publicly, to three employees (one in admin, two in the early years of getting their professional credentials) to advise as follows:

    1. Female admin, with 10+ years of service, to tell her, in the admin bullpen, that her outfit wasn’t ‘work appropriate’,
    2. Male newby to profession, to tell him, in the cubicle farm, that his denim pants weren’t dark enough, and
    3. Male newby to profession, to tell him, in another cubicle farm, that his beard was messy and work inappropriate.

    As all of these events took place in public, the office is abuzz with discussion. There are worried people concerned their beards may be untidy (especially the women, who, like me are female of menopausal age and seriously worry about facial hair growth) and annoyed people who see this as one rule for the partners, and another rule for the minions.

    I am appalled that anyone would consider addressing these issues in public, let alone a so-called HR person. Your thoughts? Suggestions on what, if anything, those not directly involved could/should do?

    1. WellRed*

      I can’t tell if this comment is genuine or not but will assume it is. You have an HR person run amok on so.many levels. Do you have standing to say something to her? To raise the issues with whoever oversees her? Because those that are not “directly involved,” which I assume means you simply haven’t been targeted yet, eventually will be. Trust me on that.

      1. OP here...*

        Thanks for your reply. I am puzzled as to why you ask if this comment is genuine? These events did actually happen and it does worry me.

        As it happens, I was the person being pressured to sign her petition. I went straight to a partner and, although it was somewhat worrisome that I had to explain to the partner WHY her doing that was so inappropriate, the partner did take action to get the petition removed from the office. I do not know if the specific act of pressuring subordinates was addressed as I didn’t hear anything further.

        Thanks for the confirmation. Sometimes it is worth getting an independent view, when the crazy starts to seem normal!

  196. Programmer*

    Hey all!

    Update for my question last week question about asking for a salary raise as a contractor (https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-3-4-2019.html#comment-2458785) .

    I took a few deep breaths, did some math on the cost of the increase, added in 30% extra for taxes I’d have to pay out-of-pocket, and sent an email explaining the situation and asking how raises were discussed. They asked me to call. I took a bit of time to get my arguments together for a phone call and dialed.

    …they said, “yeah, that increase should be fine. I’ll let you know which pay period it will be effective as they are working on payroll right now.”

    o.o

    That was the whole conversation.

    16% salary increase just for asking!!!! I’m thrilled! Waiting on the official change confirmation in writing now!

    Thanks all for your support!

    Note: I aimed at what I thought was the high end of the salary change expecting to be argued down, but they were totally fine with it! I’ve got to keep that in mind next time and not undersell myself.

  197. Lilysparrow*

    If you were there when she was pressuring people to sign her petition, it would be appropriate to push back and say, “The thing is, Karen, you being our HR rep makes it very awkward for you to put political pressure on people. It could make people feel like they have to agree to stay on your good side. I’m sure you see why that’s problematic, right?”

    If you were present for the public shamings but not a target, you could push back and say, “Karen, this is very uncomfortable for everyone. We really shouldn’t be privy to this kind of conversation.”

    If you weren’t there for any of it, there’s not much you can do other than encourage you co-workers to push back. Maybe see about going over her head to the main HR group. She’s out of line.

  198. Evaluation Hell*

    I have a dilemma: so far, I had previously been under two different consecutive supervisors. During routine performance evaluations, each supervisor had given me scores comparable to 3/5. 3 is not terrible, but I would regularly get comments from colleagues and management in other offices that my work is exceptional.

    Both my supervisors left their position to take on a new role within the same organization, but in a different office. During my final performance evaluations, after each had taken the new position but hadn’t yet vacated their current one, my evaluation scores skyrocketed to at or above 4.5. This makes a big difference in the bonus I am paid at the end of the year.

    I’m curious about this phenomenon. The quality of my work doesn’t drastically change to warrant such an increase, so I am inclined to believe that my scores are being artificially depressed, given that it’s happened twice with consecutive supervisors. If I’m not being judged according to my performance, and I’m being given the absolute bare minimum to be considered proficient in my role, then what’s the point of performance of evaluations?

    Mind you, during routine evaluations, I always ask what I can do to improve, and the answers I get are meaningless (“You’re doing well, so there’s nothing to worry about” or “You’re being evaluated based on the level you’re at right now so there’s always room for growth”, etc.).

    1. LGC*

      I’m responding really late, so hopefully you’re checking back to see it!

      Anyway. So…to answer your question, I’d think that they were adjusting your scores down a bit, just based off of the evidence you’ve given. But…it’s complicated.

      To start off, scores are somewhat arbitrary. Like, I have a similar rubric that I have to use (another reason I hate performance reviews is that I hate the form my organization uses with the fury of a thousand suns), and the definitions (from 1 to 5) are “poor,” “fair,” “satisfactory,” “good,” and “excellent.” In my case, my center (satisfactory) is, “does this employee perform in the way that we need them to?” To use myself as an example: I’ve gotten compliments from our accounts manager (who I work fairly closely with). But also, I’m aware that I’ve made quite a few mistakes in billing (and also caught quite a few mistakes). I mean, the lady really likes me and has sung my praises (because I’m polite and I make pretty reports), but that doesn’t mean I’m great at AR. I’d rate my skills as satisfactory at best – I’m a really nice guy, but nice doesn’t get the bills paid accurately.

      I also think that part of it could be bad decisions…or bad guidance. One thing that was hammered into my head the first couple of years I did performance reviews was that you don’t want to give out 5’s because people won’t think they need to improve. (Which is terrible reasoning.) Of course, I initially interpreted that as “DO NOT GIVE OUT 5’S EVER OR ELSE YOUR BOSS WILL BE MAD.” (Which is even worse reasoning.) So I followed that rule last year…only to get hear back that my 4’s were too low for some employees. (I…definitely used some work-inappropriate language in private because I was mad about my bosses seemingly contradicting themselves, but I did revisit those scores.) It could be the case that upper management – especially since your reviews are tied to bonuses – is directing this.

      Finally…maybe they’re overcompensating on their final reviews. So, to track back, you might be a 4 overall in their opinion, but you’re being scored as a 4.5 to cover for them scoring you as a 3 to 3.5 before. They have less to lose, since they’re not supervising you anymore.

      It’s a lot, and I’m sorry that I can’t give a better answer than, “well, performance reviews are just an imaginary construct, man,” but without being your boss, there are a lot of explanations. (And also, your former supervisors are bad at writing performance reviews, but I think most people are bad at it, myself included.)

  199. Cherry Sours*

    Dear Faithful Readers, I have a bit of a dilemma. Have been on FMLA for my allotted 90 days, and also received a one month extension. The time to return is at hand, but neither my doctor or physical therapist will permit me to do so, as I am not yet able to do heavy lifting, in addition to other issues. No light duty is available, I am the only employee on this shift, and am not able to switch to another, for a variety of reasons. HR is telling me if I am not back by x date, my position will be listed. While my boss is going to bat for me, and may be successful, we do not yet know if her plan will work.

    I have been with this company for over 20 years, and would hate to leave my fantastic boss and coworkers. As it appears I may have to begin a job search, should I begin applying now, to possibly begin work in, let’s say, three weeks, if I am not permitted to return? It is imperative that I am able to pay my bills (at this point, barely hanging on), including medical bills that are mounting as we speak.

    Will sign up for unemployment if I am official let go, and am currently compiling a list of local businesses that are hiring, and updating my CV. Any advice on FMLA, job hunting or unemployment would be appreciated.

    1. fposte*

      This sounds like a crappy situation; I’m sorry. Yes, I would start applying elsewhere; you don’t have to take a job immediately just because you’re looking at it, and it’s perfectly honorable to explore options that may be better able than your current job to support your physical state. Being let go for being unable to return after FMLA is a situation that can often be handled amicably, so you might consider consulting with your boss about a good reference and the possibility of rehire if down the line you’re physically able to do the work again. Fingers crossed for a good outcome for you.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Agreed. After twenty years there should (at least) be a severance and a good recommendation.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Just a thought: I have had multiple friends go through PT and disobey the directions and recovery time frame, much to their regret.

        1. valentine*

          much to their regret
          Yeah, don’t work against medical advice. You want to follow instructions so that, if anything goes wrong, it’s not due to that, especially if you’re losing your medical insurance.

          Why only 90 days?

  200. Lucina*

    Any advice on how to gently drop out of a job offer? I had asked a friend about a possible tutoring job at her uncle’s afterschool program when I was in a very desperate place. Went to the after school and was immediately hired without much information about wage or hours – only asked about when I’d start. I was so sick and tired of searching for a job that I accepted the job offer and was told that I was needed in the summer. But an interviewer a week prior to all this, later contacted me and offered a way better position… So any advice on the script? I understand that it was shitty of me to accept without much thought and that I’m gonna burn this bridge.

    I was thinking of saying “I’m so sorry but a great opportunity came up that I couldn’t turn down. I apologize for the inconvenience and wish you the best?”

    1. Marion Q*

      Alison has posted scripts on how to turn down job offers before. IIRC they’re quite similar to what you wrote, but maybe you’d want to search the archive to make sure.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agree with Marion Q.

        Just to make sure: Do you have an offer in writing with details (i.e. salary, start date, etc.)? I’m paranoid about applicants (like me) thinking there’s an offer when it’s just “Oh, we really like you and think you would be a great fit” type of sentiment, rather than a hard offer. If that’s the case:

        1) Since the tutoring job was from a personal/network connection, I would reach out to your friend as well.

        2) Also, reach out to the school RIGHT NOW, so they can start searching for other candidates. The longer you wait, the worse off things will be for any future relationships.

  201. PBJnocrusts*

    Late! darn it!
    Okay – how long do you search for a job in your field before you give up ?
    I get interviews, sometimes even 2nd interviews but no offers.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Are you asking for advice or perspectives? In case you didn’t see it, Alison had a great post about this topic in February 2019, “how do I not lose hope in a highly competitive field?” Alison had some great questions to ask yourself in that post.

      My perspective aligns with Alison’s on this one: It’s a personal calculation you have to decide on, based on what’s going to serve you best in the long-term.

      The fact that you’re getting interviews, though, does suggest you’ll eventually find the next job (Side note: I’m so jealous of you even receiving interview invites :p).

  202. Ambivalent*

    I’m really late to this thread but hopefully there are a few people still reading! I’m looking for advice about a job offer and some potential red flags. I applied for a job posting where the company was filling two positions at two separate sites. They contacted me the day after applications closed and offered a job. I was ecstatic and accepted!

    Within a few days, I was contacted by an old boss about a potential new job opening – different company, same job as the new job I’d accepted. I was also contacted to interview for the job at the second location. I declined both politely, explained I’d just accepted an offer.

    Except the job I accept turned out not to be the job I applied for – it was a temp position until they filled it properly. And the interview I’d declined? Was the interview for the actual job that would start after the temp position. All very confusing and none of it communicated to me at all! I ended up rushing to the interview (I literally had an hour between being invited and being interviewed) and feeling not particularly prepared – I didn’t come across as a strong candidate.

    I’m feeling a bit flat and demoralised about the whole thing. I’m less excited about the temp position because I thought it was a full time job. I’m feeling ambivalent about the hiring process of the company and wondering if I even want the full time job that start after the temp position ends – the disorganisation and lack of communication are off-putting and I feel kind of disrespected. And I’m wondering if I should contact my old boss and ask if the job opening is still available.

    I was so excited to take the next step in my career so it’s disappointing to be feeling so negative about it.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I’m feeling ambivalent about the hiring process of the company and wondering if I even want the full time job that start after the temp position ends – the disorganisation and lack of communication are off-putting and I feel kind of disrespected.

      Go to a second interview (if they offer one) and ask some questions about the culture. See if the manager who’s actually going to work with you is well-organized. See if their communication is better for issues around the second interview. Ask them about issues relevant to your particular specialty and see if they’re doing stuff right. Etc.

      Meanwhile, work the temp position for all it’s worth and maybe they’ll hire you.

      1. valentine*

        You don’t have to keep the temp position. You can tell them you applied for the other role and see what they say. Maybe this is like the “I recommend Jane for the board” situation.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Would you be interested in working with your old boss? If yes, then I would also recommend reaching out and explaining the situation (i.e. the job was not as advertised) and ask if the job they suggested was still available for you to learn more about/interview for.

      1. Ambivalent*

        I’m definitely keen to work with my old boss again – he and the company overall are wonderful. I think I’m just a bit hesitant to reach out when so much is still up in the air. I’m worried I’ll look indecisive / uncommitted if I reach out after declining and then end up declining again if more comes of the temp position and the other job I interviewed for.

    3. Ambivalent*

      Thanks to everyone for the tips and advice! It got me thinking and I’ve settled on a plan going forward. I’m going to do the temp position – it’s good experience and will let me get a feel for the company. Meanwhile, I’ll wait for an update on the outcome of the interview – apparently they’ll have an answer in about 2 weeks. If the answer is negative, I’ll reach out to my old boss to ask about the job opening he mentioned earlier.

      Even with all the shenanigans, this is a good opportunity and a chance to take the next step in my career. I’m going to try to put aside all the negative feelings and work as hard as I can to make the most of things!

  203. MPA*

    Also late, but here’s hoping.

    I have a job that I have mixed feelings about. Sometimes I love the opportunities and the people I work with, but because it’s a small company it can’t pay enough for me to really believe I can stay there forever. I’ve also had some issues with ownership’s shifting expectations and sometimes legally questionable HR policies.

    I’ve been sort of halfheartedly looking for something else, but recently decided to pursue it a bit more. I applied for a job that seemed like a good fit, is still in my area, and paid substantially more. I had a phone interview which was very brief and was asked to send some samples of my work.

    Before I could do that, I was contacted again for an interview. I agreed, but then that night I got notification from the job board of another position at the company. It seems they were splitting the duties they had up originally and the new position pays quite a bit less.

    I have to admit this gives me pause as I’m not sure which position I’m interviewing for as well as the quick change gave me vibes that they aren’t sure what they are looking for. Obviously I’ll know more after the interview, but I’m feeling a little bit like the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

    Just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this. It’s quite possible that this is just refining my desire to not work for another tiny company if I can help it!

    1. ..Kat..*

      Go for it. You could find a terrific new job! If not, you still have a job and can keep looking.

      If you find a company that is a good fit and pays more, go for it. Over time, your current low salary is denying you opportunities – foreign travel, nice college for your children, saving for a more comfortable retirement.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed! Going for the interview sounds like a low-risk, medium-to-high reward scenario.

        Do keep those questions in mind to ask during the interview, though. I like to write out a few questions and have them with me in the (rare) instances I’m offered an interview.

  204. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    I applied to a job at a company (Manager Role). They have a second opening, that would report to the Manager Role. According to LinkedIn, someone just started at this company with the title “Manager Role.” My application status is still “in progress” (I have not even received a phone screen request).

    Should I apply to the second opening or would that be weird? Do I just explain it in the cover letter?

    If it matters, they have both been posted for over a month now, so it’s likely the second role already has been interviewed/filled. It is unlikely to have multiple people in either position, ever.

    1. valentine*

      Don’t trust the LinkedIn as the last word. Either wait and see or, if you would really be happy with the junior role, go ahead and apply. There have been letters about this and I think the advice was to mention your other application in the interview.

  205. ONFM*

    A bunch of department heads went to some HR- hosted workshop and came back raving about Cy Wakeman and No Drama. Any experience with this out there, generally or in a governmental setting? I am about to order the book(s)…

  206. Amethyst*

    So I thought I had the job in the bag. Some things happened on their end & they had to withdraw the offer to the position they were hiring for. (I’m unemployed so it didn’t really affect anything, but it still effin’ sucks.) Now I’m trying to figure out what positions/fields I can work in.

    I’ve got 15 years of customer service experience in the bag. Same amount for cash handling. I did a lot of AR stuff at a couple positions, which included tracking down discrepancies within invoices/accounts & reporting them to the correct person. I was a website admin for a celebrity’s fan website for a couple years. I’ve been the editor for 4 books, taught classes in a language I know…

    I have a couple physical disabilities that mean I can no longer do physical &/or phone-heavy jobs.

    Help. :/

    2. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Are you asking for a field to look in? Have you looked into casino gaming?

      1. Amethyst*

        Yes, I am asking for ideas. The disability I have that makes phone work not an option is the same one that makes client/customer-facing work difficult as well. Is there anything I can do in a back office type of job that’ll utilize all of my experience and yet give me room to grow?

        The job search and ALMOST having a job has demoralized me so I’m really drawing a blank here.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Are jobs with heavy computer use an option for you? With your skills in writing/editing, customer service (developing relationships), and finance-related work, maybe something in non-profit development work, like “Development Associate” or “Grant writer.”

  207. Luna*

    I have the feeling my grandboss is talking to me like she would to a small child.
    We don’t talk a whole lot, usually just greetings when she is at the hotel reception, but when she did talk to me recently over something, she had that tone of voice… that high one, with that overly friendly tone in it. With extra sentences on telling you what to do.
    Case in point, there were still several flower bouquets over from the festivity at the hotel. We were told to take one home because they’d otherwise go to waste. She told me take one along when I leave after my shift. But she will need the vase it was in. And to be sure to pour the water away; don’t just take the flowers and leave the vase, and the water standing in there.

    I was confused, since I would obviously pour the water away. I can see telling me to not take the vase, but…

    Maybe it’s because she’s still sore because she believes I yelled at her a few days ago? I wasn’t yelling *at* her. The computer system was messing up, the guests were placed in rooms when the system said different ones, etc. And I’m still fairly new to the job (just coming up to my first month there; most of the other staff is just as new), so I was panicking. My voice was high (in tone), but I wasn’t yelling (volume) at her. I was just talking high due to panic.
    (She told me if I ever yelled at her again, I could take my bag and leave. I apologized, though I really hadn’t yelled.)

    1. Observer*

      Yelling is not just about volume. I’m not sure what your best way forward is, but for starters, make sure that your behavior is always appropriate and adult. If you feel like you are panicking, find some way to take it down.

      Of course, if the systems keep on messing up this way, and you don’t get the support you need, you should consider looking elsewhere, but step one to trying to get the problem fixed is explaining what’s going on in a reasonable and calm manner.

      1. Luna*

        I tried to explain the problem, and the grandboss basically said that this problem/mistake can occur with 600+ rooms in a hotel… which I do not deny can happen, but that does not sound like something to say to instill calmness or confidence in an employee. I dunno, it could be that the grandboss is just the type of person that irks me the wrong way, or that I am just misinterpreting what her voice meant.

  208. Detective Raichu*

    Suuuuper late post, but I’m sending out an SOS here!

    My boss told me we filled one of our open positions… but it turns out he gave the offer to a nightmare former colleague. Someone so unpleasant to work with that I’d seriously consider quitting on the spot rather than work with her again.

    Basically, we were on the same team, but had different duties. At a company party, she went off at me, calling me a psycho serial killer and saying that the cops should search my house. I went to HR over it… and my performance review was put at 1/5, and I was put on probation. I ended up turning it around, but there was basically always frosty silence and death glares when she was in the same room as me.

    It’s not simply a personal disagreement, either. She could be a legal liability to the company, because at our old job she went off at the Dominican guy in the office, giving him a hard time because he came from a “sexist culture” (her words). AFAIK, the Dominican guy didn’t take any action, but her boyfriend also worked at the company, and there was a rumor that he threatened to quit if she was written up or got fired.

    I didn’t bring this up because the rest of the team was there, but I would seriously consider quitting over working with this person again, and I am in the financial situation for it. I want to talk to my boss in private about this, but I’m also worried because I’ve heard that rescinded job offers are often grounds for lawsuits. OTOH, my company has plenty of lawyers and can figure that out themselves.

    Advice, please!

    1. Luna*

      I am not sure, but I don’t think rescinded job *offers* are grounds of lawsuits. By the word itself, it is an offer. It’s there, but it’s not a sure thing.

      1. Detective Raichu*

        So thanks for your reply. I spent a little while last night nervously Googling about this (I know, I know), and the consensus seems to be that it’s legal to pull an offer as long as it’s not based on a protected class. However, it’s ethically a gray area to do once the new hire’s put in their resignation with their current employer, unless something comes up in the background check. Since AFAIK the offer hasn’t been formally extended yet, and this is arguably a background check, IMHO I’m in the clear to bring up my misgivings about hiring this person. I’ll chat with my boss today.

  209. Michelle*

    I am currently employed as a lawyer and I just applied for a management position in my field that requires a minimum of three years of experience. I have seven years of professional experience under my belt. The job announcement asked that prospective applicants provide a cover letter and resume (and nothing more). Per the job announcement, I provided my cover letter and resume yesterday. Today, the prospective employer emailed me back to ask me to provide them with a transcript. I am annoyed that they didn’t state upfront in the job announcement that a transcript is required to be submitted in order to apply for the job. As a rule, I tend to avoid jobs in my profession that ask experienced lawyers for transcripts. Does anyone think it is unusual or off putting for an employer to ask for a transcript in this manner (without mentioning it is required in the initial job announcement)?

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