open thread – August 27-28, 2021

by Alison Green on August 27, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. AnonPi*

    So I’m scheduled to take my PMI ACP (Agile Certified Practioner) exam Monday. Wondering if anyone here has taken it and has any insights/tips you’d be willing to share. Was it mostly scenario based questions? Are there one or two areas you’d recommend focusing on reviewing, like Value Driven Delivery or Release Planning?

    I’m rather all over the place taking practice exams, from 66%-82% so I feel like I’m flailing around what I’m doing wrong. Some of it I know is the whole, two answers could technically be correct, you have to pick the best one bit, which I struggle with. In part because I know I shouldn’t go by my own experience, because it may not align with what PMI says is the best way to go about it, but that’s hard to ignore.

    I really feel like if I pass I pass, if I don’t I don’t, because frankly I’ve come to the conclusion that I should have gone for more specific certifications like Scrum and/or Kanban. But since my employer paid for it I hate to not pass and have that stick in my managers mind that they wasted the money. I suspect it will influence them paying for any future training/certifications.

    1. GeorgiaB*

      It’s been years since I’ve taken the exam, so I don’t remember a lot of particulars, but my advice for any PMI exam (I have my PMP too) is to forget any real world experience and just focus on what the guide says. Unfortunately it’s much more memorization and regurgitation than being able to reason through the answers.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This is what they told us repeatedly throughout the CompTIA Project+ mentoring. Don’t extrapolate; they’re looking for a particular answer. And some questions may have more than one correct answer—they want the most correct one.

        And the test was like the practice tests. In fact, someone who took the test said the practice quizzes were harder. I don’t know about that, but they were similar.

        Personally, I think these exams would be better if they had a class with homework rather than a memorize-this-guidebook exam. I don’t feel completely prepared to do all the work unless it’s something I actually did in another job.

        1. AnonPi*

          Yeah that’s one of the downfalls I think, really this is all about how much/how well you can memorize a bunch of stuff. But for someone like me who does very small projects (as in I’m often the only one working on it, or I may get one or two people allocated to help for parts of the work), I’ve not done a lot of the formal processes in practice. It’d be much more useful to actually go through the process of writing a charter, or practice making some of the various charts, and discuss what may or may not work in different scenarios.

      3. Sam Foster*

        1000x times this. Answer how the book says to answer not how you think it should be done or how you’ve seen you work do things.

    2. Escaped a Work Cult*

      For any PMI exam, continue to review the guide or if you have a cheat sheet fold out! If you’re scoring closer to 80% on most of your practice exams, I have every confidence in you.

      General advice for test taking (currently have my CAPM but basically counting down until I have my PMP hours), taking the weekend off for practice testing. Rest. You know way more than you think!!

        1. AnonPi*

          Ironically they changed the requirements like 2 weeks after I submitted my app. I was so annoyed, it would have been so much easier not trying to calculate hours!

    3. theletter*

      I took the CAPM a few years back and passed. What seemed to work for me was laws, formulas, rules. Tests like these can’t test good judgement, they can only test what can be memorized.

      I never took ACP but I would imagine that it’d be better to focus on general rules of Agile rather than any personal experience you’ve had with Agile, as Agile in practice is going to look different for every team.

      Other than that, from my personal experience of taking these tests as an adult: solid nutrition, light exercise, a good night’s sleep. Your brain is about to run a marathon, you’ll want to prepare accordingly.

    4. AnonPi*

      Thanks everyone for the comments. I kind of suspect part of the problem is I’m being asked some scenario questions that wouldn’t appear on the real test cause they’re kinda odd/convoluted, and that’s throwing me off. Plus the off the wall obscure terms I occasionally get. Which is throwing off my results, especially when I’ve been doing more small subsets than full length exams, so missing an extra 2-3 Q’s could really drop the score. I just did a full length test and got an 84 ::shrugs:: Guess I’m going to have to take my results with a grain of salt and not stress too much about it as long as I’m not like, getting all 60’s.

  2. Not All Who Wander*

    I work for a company that is not just one building, but multiple buildings in one business compound, all for the one company. The buildings are labeled on the outside with Design, Research, Sales, etc but it’s still very easy to get turned around. When I interviewed, my interviewer/boss sent me a labeled map of all the buildings and parking lots with very clear instructions on where to park and how to find their particular office. I showed up early, like I always do for interviews, in case I still got lost, but was easily able to find my way because of the map.

    I recently helped with some interviews. One candidate was 20 min late. As we waited, we speculated why he was delayed. The hiring manager (not my supervisor) said maybe the candidate was lost because he didn’t send him a map. When I expressed surprise, he said he considers it a pre-interview test for the candidates, to see if they can find their way. Either they get to our grounds early and find the right place, or download the map that’s on our website, he likes to see them figure it out.

    When the candidate arrived, he said that he’d parked on the opposite side of the area from our building and had been wandering for a while trying to find our building. No other candidate was late or admitted to getting lost, just this one candidate. I think this is an unfair ‘test’ for the candidates and I dislike that the hiring manager did this. Has anyone else heard of people doing this?

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Yeah, it’s not very kind to put a candidate in a situation where they’re stressed out before they even sit down for the interview. What a tool.

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          I would also argue that this is really, really problematic for those with some disabilities, and you shouldn’t make someone disclose that at the interview stage.

        1. Blondie99*

          That’s what I would have done, said hey I am trying to find you could you help me out? And to say I was running late.

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Well, they may have called, but the candidate likely only had the number for the front desk or HR, who may not have known who to relay that information to. I just went through interviews with several places and I don’t think I have phone numbers for any one person on the hiring committees I interviewed with.

      3. the cat's ass*

        second that! Reminds me of interviewing in giant Boston Medical Centers where’s there’s no parking, buildings that are total mazes, and unclear signage. I always gave myself an extra hour to find things.

        1. DarkSide*

          Dallas Medical City is the most frustrating place to park and find the right parking area that takes you to the right building….I was so lost and cried trying to get to an appt!

    2. ProdMgr*

      Is navigating an unfamiliar office complex a core job responsibility? If so, this is a good test. If not, this is bullshit.

      3. Where’s the Orchestra?*

        Sounds like that guy needs reminded also of the fact an interview is a two way street – the candidate is also evaluating the company to see if they think the job is a good fit (as much as you as the interviewer is doing the same).

      4. Blondie99*

        That’s not the test. The test is about being prepared and about how you react if you are not under stress. A diligent person would have researched in advanced where to park, the complex or tried to locate a map online. Then when lost would have called the company to try to find out and told them he or she was running late.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Or maybe their phone was out of battery or they didn’t have data to look up the number from their email. You’re still testing “does this person have a fully operational smartphone at this very moment” – which is, again, not a core competency of most jobs.

          1. placeholder for a witty nom-de-plume*

            +1 to your comment Mad Harry Crewe. And to Anne of Green Gables comment about this “test” from the hiring manager being problematic to those who may have a disability. Blondie 99, some people also have conditions which actually prevent them from easily navigating based upon a map or directions, look up developmental topographic disorientation.

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          No, it’s a poorly designed test because the INTENTION was to test preparedness. What makes it a terrible test is that it can be testing so many other things, as pointed out elsewhere. Another thing this could test is, “if you’re navigating somewhere, what do you do?”

          I have been a hiring manager, a teacher, scientist, and an impact measurement specialist, so setting up tests are one of my specialties.

          This type of thinking could lead to other ridiculous tests like, “We’ll send them the wrong address and see if they correct us. That will test if they’re detail oriented and look up the address on the website.” The intention might be checking their attention to detail, but it’s much more likely that candidates will just assume you want to meet at another location for viable reasons.

          A test for preparedness wouldn’t be a trick like this. It would be an assignment of some sort and it would be related to a core responsibility for the job.

        3. Batgirl*

          You would only download a map if you knew one was needed! If you’re just given a straightforward address, the more logical inference is that there’s one entrance and reception like there normally is.

    3. Need More Sunshine*

      I think it’s a crappy test! Hiring “tests” like this that you don’t prepare candidate for are not fair and don’t show any job skill accurately.

      If the hiring manager had told all candidates something like “We have a large compound with multiple buildings, so please make sure to arrive early to get to our building on time” that would be one thing, but it sounds like this manager just…didn’t tell them anything? Seems like he was setting people up to fail.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        It reminds me of the fable about how the hiring manager had 20 people come in at 8 a.m., and then no one interacted with them until 6 p.m. “The test was patience!” he allegedly told the people still waiting 10 hours after the interview was supposed to start.

        1. R*

          There’s an episode of Community—based on a real psychological test I believe?—where the psych department does a similar one designed to test blind obedience. It’s not patience the fellow in the story was testing—it’s the ability to follow an order for an indefinite amount of time as well as a nifty way to see whether or not potential hires have anything else going on in their lives.

    4. Former Usher*

      No, I haven’t heard of this before. I think the candidate learned something useful about the hiring manager.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, this. The candidate is free to withdraw their application and celebrate a bullet dodged.

        I don’t want to work for people who like to play guessing games. The boss was rude and discourteous. Even if he hires this person, this person will always remember how he was treated on the interview and that will be the filter everything that happens next goes through.

    5. Xavier Desmond*

      This is stupid and seems like one of those candidates tests that is more of a power play than a way to figure out if someone would be right for the job.

    6. I should really pick a name*

      Did you tell the hiring manager what you thought about the test?
      If so, what was their response?

      1. Not All Who Wander*

        He’s a higher up so I didn’t say what was running through my head, more of an awkward laugh and commenting ‘that’s a bit harsh’. One of the other interviewers said ‘that’s such a [His Name] thing to do!’ like it was typical. The hiring manager just laughed and shrugged. The only further elaboration he gave after the late candidate left is that he feels like his ‘test’ is for common sense, like having the sense to do their research and find the map on the website or to arrive early and explore around.

        1. kvite*

          Fantasy reply “You know what else is common sense? Having a complex that’s easy to navigate for people coming from the outside, and making it easy for people to find you for an appointment.” I mean – he just waisted all of your time, in addition to the candidate’s time.

          Another fantasy reply “I can’t think of a single business purpose for a ‘gotcha moment’ – it’s not good optics for any serious business hiring top talent.”

        2. it's me*

          Well, he’s not exactly wrong that candidates should research that stuff, but I think there’s also a reasonable expectation that the company would provide you with helpful info.

          1. WellRed*

            Right. Presumably, any visitor would be given directions. Just because it’s a job candidate doesn’t make them a lesser human.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Yep.

              I always try to go in about fifteen minutes early in case something happens, unless the entrance opens right out to the parking lot. One time, I had to climb a couple of flights of stairs because the elevator was out of order. But they at least told me on which side of the weirdly configured building I could find them.

              1. Redd*

                And sometimes something has already happened by the time you arrive! I’ve always tried to give myself a huge buffer on my way to job interviews, but I had one day where the first bus broke down, the second bus was stuck in a traffic jam, and as I was walking the last leg of the trip, I twisted my ankle. I’d left over an hour early and still arrived a few minutes late. I was able to call ahead, but given how the day was going I was honestly surprised my phone hadn’t overheated.

          2. I'm just here for the cats!*

            If I was the candidate I wouldn’t have thought that there was a map available on the company’s website. And employer websites are’nt always that helpful. Things can be in weird places.

            The only time I would think that there would be a map that was available to anyone would be if the job was at a university or hospital, where there are multiple buildings and offices and campus’s have maps to direct students/clients.

            1. Batgirl*

              Yeah I would be much more willing to trust the person I was communicating with than a website. If it then turns out that they were playing silly games, I don’t want the job anyway!

        3. Goat Herder*

          Also, if I were in the interviewee’s shoes, even if I had found the map online the day before, having to figure it out myself 15 minutes before my interview would probably throw me off and make me nervous. I like to get there 15 minutes ahead of time and then sit in my car or my lobby, but if I spent that time trying to hurriedly navigate the building, I’d probably feel pretty harrowed!

          1. Blondie99*

            I would have too and I think that’s the kind of candidate the boss is looking for, that’s the point. It’s not about being able to navigate the campus everyone is missing the point.

            1. it's me*

              Apparently it *is* the kind of candidate the boss is looking for and I think we get that, we’re just saying it’s kind of dickish.

          2. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

            In my last two companies, the building plans are not publicly available in a level of detail that would be useful. I’d be more concerned if a candidate did know exactly where to go.

    7. AnonPi*

      Yes I’ve heard of this kind of thing, given the same “reasoning”, and I think it’s stupid to do that. What does that really prove?

    8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Ugh. This is stupid. This is not the Army Rangers. Is he supposed to stake the place out with night-vision goggles and a drone the night before?

      Any employer on a campus (university, hospital, large company) had better provide a map and where-to-park instructions. I posted in an open thread a few weeks ago about parking outside a building with terrible signage, and having to walk around it in order to find the entrance.

    9. Teapot Repair Technician*

      It doesn’t seem to be a useful skill to test for for most jobs. Unless you’re organizing a polar expedition and hiring a navigator.

    11. Earl Grey Hot*

      I can’t help but think that the core issue here is not whether a candidate can find the location, but whether ANYONE can. Your company has a serious problem with building signage. I know that’s not on you, but if a map is required to have any hope of finding your location, that’s a problem.

    12. Clemgo3165*

      It seems kind of silly to me when you could just send the map. But if there’s a map on the website and the candidate can ask “how do I get to your office?” it doesn’t seem like too much to expect them to do that.

      I always scope out an interview site the day before to make sure I know where I’m going. Nothing like getting lost to make you lose the plot.

    13. Sparkles McFadden*

      In my experience, people who use these sorts of secret, gotcha tests do so because they don’t really know how to conduct an effective interview.

      Would I have downloaded the map and gotten there early? Sure. Does that mean I’d be a better choice than a candidate who didn’t do that? Only if the entire job is getting to unfamiliar places on time.

      It’s absurd and adds additional, unnecessary stress to the interview process. As a candidate, I’d actually be judging the hiring group for not being organized enough to send all the appropriate information.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep.

        I could probably find the map and have everything sorted out the day before. This would give me plenty of time to ponder why the onus is on me to do all this. I’d arrive at it’s either sloppiness or head game (test).

        When I arrived on time, I would be sure to comment, “Gee, a little tricky to find.” When the laughter started, then I’d know it’s a head game. [Sloppiness, oversight, human error is usually met with an apology, NOT laughter.]

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I like your check.

        For what it a worth, it wouldn’t occur to me that a map was needed, because how many places have an entire compound to navigate? I would assume that, if the place is hard to navigate, the company would tell me about it and there would be an obvious “Information/Reception” welcoming area to help me.

      3. Batgirl*

        I was thinking the exact same! How insecure do you need to be in your judgement before you make an interviewee go on a treasure hunt?!

    15. Ginger Baker*

      My sister has significant difficulty navigation anything not on a grid (and sometimes on a grid!). She’s excellent at a number of other things and as long as you don’t ask her to be the navigator on a trip this would not impact your experience with her work in ANY way. What a ridiculous “test” to arbitrarily use without notice (unless this is for a job as a driver or another role that involves navigation).

    16. Twisted Lion*

      They do this at my work as well claiming its a ‘test’ but since Im the one who schedules emails I include a map in my email confirmation for the interview.

      I for one think its stupid. My building is hard to navigate and it does take time to figure it out. But we arent going to hire someone based on whether or not they can find our office. Ridiculous.

    17. Rayray*

      That’s a horrible way to treat a potential candidate. I’m sick of all these hiring managers playing tricks and mind games and thinking it’s a good hiring practice.

      I’m sure that candidate was incredibly stressed about the situation. If it were me and I found out this was an intentional test, I would absolutely blast the company on Glassdoor.

    18. anon today*

      Looking for some cover letter advice! I left my previous company last year for a similar job (one step up) at a competitor. Within the first couple of months, I realized it was a mistake–the culture was toxic and the workload excessive. I’ve spent a lot of nights crying and then stressing out because every minute of crying was a minute I was getting further behind on work.

      There’s a new job posted at Old Company, with a different boss, on a different team, but similar work to what I was and still am doing. I think it would be a better fit than my previous job and would be willing to take a lateral move to be back at Old Company. (I’d been at Old Company for several years and got good evaluations there, and made clear in my exit interview that I’d be interested in returning for the right fit.)

      My question is, how much should I go into this in my cover letter? It will be very clear that I’m trying to nope out of New Job after only a few months. Do I need to explain why?

      2. AnonyMeg*

        This happens ALL the time in my industry since there are very few comparative companies (although they are each very large). The grass is always greener.

        As a hiring manager, I would read into your application without you stating it on your cover letter that you are looking to come back.

        Are you looking to come back as a step down role? Or at a parallel to now (which is a step up from before).

        1. anon today*

          It would be parallel to now, so yes, a step up. And yes, it’s exactly that kind of industry, so it’s not uncommon to bounce around between companies.

    19. The Dogman*

      That manager is a terrible person and I would not want to work directly with a bully again.

      I would ask to be placed on interviews that do not have that individual involved, or moved to different duties, and if those were not options it would be time to update the CV and get applications out there.

      This reflects poorly on the company and on the senior people who allow it to happen with no consequences.

      Your bosses should be ashamed and if I were the CEO that hiring manager would be fired and excorted out as soon as I became aware of their bullying tactics and insane hiring technique.

    20. PNW Labrat*

      Agreed with all the people who said this says more about the hiring manager than the candidate. Plus if I was a candidate and found out this was a test, I would assume this was a company that likes to throw inane random “tests” at their employees and that I would have to always be on edge in my job there. Or that I would be working with dickish coworkers. I would pass if I had other options.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        The fact that people are laughing at this stunt, telegraphs that this behavior is accepted in this workplace. The group thinks it’s okay. “Oh that’s just Bob being Bob.”

    21. Me*

      Setting people up to fail is always a shit thing to do. Employers are supposed to giver their employees tools to be able to do the job, not withhold info to see if they can figure it out. That extends to potential employees imo.

      That hiring manager was an ass and honestly that’s a glaring sign that he’s not a good manager.

    22. ProdMgr*

      Recruiters should absolutely provide good directions and parking info.

      I was once on an interview team that rejected a candidate because while her interviews had been OK, the recruiter revealed that she had phoned the interview coordinator 3 times on her way to the interview and had yelled at the coordinator when she had a problem with the ticket machine in the parking garage. The yelling part was disqualifying.

    23. Bagpuss*

      I think it’s a dick move. In most businesses, key points are clearly marked and it is not unreasonable for an interview candidate to expect that either there will be clear signage or that they would check in at reception and be met, or taken to the interview, or at the very least given instructions.
      I think all it tells you (or the business) is that the hiring manager is a dick.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, really. I worked in a place that was pretty much a rabbit warren. I routinely had people wait at the main desk and/or I escorted them to the exit door nearest their car. It’s not a big deal to do this on a regular basis.

    24. learnedthehardway*

      This is a stupid and mean thing to do, and it does NOT tell you anything useful about the candidate.

      A) There are lots of people who you can hand a map and detailed directions to, who will still get lost. Unless orienteering is a job requirement, finding the building is pretty irrelevant as a test of suitability.
      B) Your company’s buildings don’t seem to be well marked / laid out.
      C) Your exec is assuming that people think looking up a building location is part of interview preparation – sure, most people will google map to make sure they know the address, but it’s ridiculous to assume that people doing research on a role will spend their time on map section of the employer website! They might not even look at the page, if they know the street location – and why would they? They have relevant things to look at – like the company’s financials or the business units!
      D) It’s inhospitable and dickish to try to rattle a candidate unnecessarily.

      In the candidate’s situation, I would be reflecting that the exec is an asshole who lacks common sense and common courtesy. I would consider whether he is someone who leaves out important parts of instructions, and whether I could deal with that on a day to day basis (pro-tip – it’s really difficult, and I charge a premium to clients who do this sort of thing.) I’d also be thinking that this is a manager who probably doesn’t consider his employee’s needs and who doesn’t care much about the people who report to him. I’d even be thinking about whether the exec did this on purpose, and if I thought he did, I would assume he is a bully. All told, my interest in the role would be lessened quite a bit.

    25. mreasy*

      This is horrible. I have an awful sense of direction and would be so stressed by the time I found the place…ugh. How mean and unnecessary. Unless you’re hiring for a cartographer or an explorer, why does this “test” mean anything??

    26. Sleepless*

      Oh no. No no no. I would not want to work with somebody who played head games like this. Even if I were any good at finding my way around in places like that. I do fine with driving directions and streets, but buildings and compounds get me every time. I would have shown up to the interview a flustered mess. Then if I found out somehow that it had been done to me on purpose, that would be it for me.

    27. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This is a terrible test, and it makes me wonder what other questionable things this manager might do. Is it his MO to set employees up to fail by not providing them with the tools they need to be successful? Or does he just not realize that’s what this “test” seems to indicate?

      1. Fran Fine*

        That’s exactly the takeaway I’d have about the manager if I were the one interviewing. I would not want to work there if I found out this was done on purpose.

    28. Blondie99*

      Prior to any interview I would always go to the website and figure out where I was to park, the campus etc and if I could not I would ask my interviewer. I also always arrive early enough to allow myself to get lost. So I am sort of with your boss on this one.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        This makes a lot of assumptions about what info is available and how difficult the area is to navigate. It also depends on the interviewer’s ability to give clear directions (which is NOT an ability that everyone has). A candidate who has trouble with geographic directionality (“drive north on Oak street” but I didn’t bring my compass) combined with an interviewer who gives vague instructions is a recipe for the candidate getting lost.
        I once had an interviewer tell me that the building I was looking for was “right in the town square”. (the interviewer had lived in the area their whole life). I expected a quad-like park space surrounded by buildings. What I found was a several block area with no street signs, one- way streets, and little building signage.

        The interviewer who uses this kind of thing as a test is a first-class jerk. I wouldn’t want to work with someone like that.

      3. Not really*

        While I do not think such “tests” are fair and would not do this myself, I agree with Blondie99 that I would have probably driven there before to scope out parking, looked at Google maps if out of town, given myself an hour extra, and ensured I was not going there with my phone on 2% charge.

        I have been a hiring manager and noticed something similar when our HR department would send out hiring manager phone screen interview invitations. They always were detailed and said gave a call-in number to join the call AND a backup number to phone in if there were technical difficulties. There was no way to get this wrong IF you read the interview invitation. We invariable had a couple candidates no-show and later tell HR “no one called me at 2:00 for my interview.” Those were never the strongest candidates from their resumes but those to whom we were giving a chance anyway to impress.

    29. Hello, I’d like to report my boss*

      I work for a university with a confusing campus and about 75% of candidates go to the wrong place. We always expect it. I’m moderately pleased if they go to the right place but it doesn’t affect hiring! (Possibly because I was one of the 75% who got lost!)

      Making it a test is unfair and on the rare occasion one of the other interviewers mentions it as a significant factor for a candidate, I try to shut that down.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!*

        Same here, only it’s not the campus itself but some of the buildings. The one building I had to go to for my interview and where I ended up working was laid out so weird. People who worked in the building didn’t know where the office numbers were because office 180 was inside a bigger office area. However, instead of marking on the door offices 160-190 it just said 160.

        Plus the rooms were mapped out badly.When you enter the main entrance there was one hallway with another really long hallway branched out. on the long hallway there were multiple other smaller hallway branches. It was a maze.

        Also the rooms were numbered odly. instead of having all of the even numbers on the right side and the odd numbers on the left side the rooms would be labeled all on one side and then you would turn around and labeled on the other. So if you walked down the hall on the right side it would be 101, 102, 103, 104 when it got to the end of the hall it would start the labels on the left side 105, 106 ,108. So walking down the had You wold have room 101 on your right and 121 on your left.

      2. PT*

        I worked somewhere where our central office’s building’s front door address and attached parking garage addresses were different. The front door was on a main street and the garage was accessed on a back street, in a rabbit warren of one-way streets that necessitated an approach from an entirely different direction. If you did not know this, you would get *hopelessly* lost.

        Thankfully, all of the people who organized meetings would send you the address saying “If you are driving please set your GPS to the garage address, 120 Smith Street, NOT 100 Money Way or Fancypants Tower.”

        There would be 0 reason to test anyone on this, unless you are a cruel sadist.

    31. That was a lot of details*

      Oh man, I had a boss who did this. We were only in one building, but there were three entrances and no signage whatsoever to indicate it was the RIGHT building. Most of this boss’s hires were eventually let go because shockingly, being able to pop into nearby businesses and ask if they’d ever heard of the company and might know how to get into the office was not a reliable way to evaluate skills for our very specialized jobs (it was, however, a good way to annoy the nearby businesses by having them interrupted multiple times per day by people asking for directions).

      This boss was bad in many many ways (we also had to take a typing test for hire – in 2012). She lasted about 6 months after I started and I was surprised by the things that came to light after she was gone.

    32. Sandman*

      I tend to go to into overly though anxiety mode with interviews, so I MIGHT have looked something like this up ahead of time – but honestly, I would have just been looking at the address. If there were multiple buildings or even confusing doors I would have expected the interviewers to give me a heads-up in advance.

      In other words, I wouldn’t want to work for this guy.

      1. banoffee pie*

        I bet the hiring manager used to get lost himself all the time but isn’t mentioning that!

    33. Morning Reader*

      Weirdly this reminds me of a joke I used to tell about the streets of Ann Arbor, that they were designed to be a final admissions test for new arrivals to the university. If you and your family could not successfully navigate to your freshman dorm, the one-ways would eventually flush you out of town.
      It’s not the best joke but I thought it was clearly so ridiculous as to not be taken seriously! It’s appalling that anyone would use this kind of thing to screen for employment. Unless it were somehow tied to a job need; even then it should be an explicit challenge. As in, “Your first test for this position will be a classic Quest. The Quest for the Interview Room. Prepare to be met by a troll, a dragon, or a wizard.”
      Now I’m wondering if I was right all along about Ann Arbor.

    34. Ezri Dax*

      Like a couple of others have already pointed out, this “test” is ableist AF, along with being a d*ck move. I’m autistic, which in my case means my spatial reasoning, sense of direction, and ability to navigate are close to nil. I do my best to compensate and prepare ahead of time, of course, but even with the assistance of maps and GPS I regularly get lost going to new places. If a company did this to me deliberately as a test, especially if the job didn’t require these types of skills, I’d seriously rethink any desire I had to work there.

    35. Anonymous Hippo*

      I think this tests sucks, but I also would probably judge someone if they didn’t figure it out, because I know I do a dry run of interviews to make sure I know exactly where I”m going. But I also know that there are a lot of reasons why a person wouldn’t be able to do it, so I’d be against the test to begin with, mainly because I’m against hidden tests.

  3. Need More Sunshine*

    How can I deal with a chronically negative coworker?

    I know Alison has answered similar questions, but they tend to be more about a manager with a negative direct report (we’re peers) or the coworker complaining about their personal life rather than work processes and office-goings-on.

    When she’s complaining about something I’m trying to teach her (brand new industry to her), I try to navigate the conversation toward what concrete things she can try to mitigate her frustration, and I also remind myself that she’s learning and it’s really hard, so I need to cut her some slack in my mind. But I’m stumped on how to deal with her complaints about regular office stuff – her office is too hot, the shredding company didn’t show and didn’t answer the phone and they better show up this time, a webpage isn’t loading correctly and she’s tried 5 times, our boss had her reschedule a meeting twice, and other little things that just make me feel miserable around her because she’s always complaining! It also makes me uncomfortable that she harps negativity about our boss all the time – our boss isn’t perfect, and even personally recognizes that she’s a great entrepreneur but not a good manager, but I really dislike hearing and participating in bad-talking about others in our office, especially about our boss!

    I get it, it’s annoying to reschedule a meeting or a service visit, or when technology doesn’t work the way it should, but these are all small things that I feel I would easily be able to just shrug and think “okay, whatever; I’ll move on to the next thing for while.” I gather that her general misery stems from not liking the job much and how it evolved (she was hired to be our office manager but is really more personal assistant to our boss and now doing more admin in our industry than she expected), but she won’t have a bigger-picture conversation with our boss about it. (I’ve encouraged her to.)

    I try to combat this by just being incessantly cheery in front of her, or help problem-solving the issue when I can, but how do I politely get her to stop spreading clouds all over the office?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You may not be able to. Some people are Eeyores, and will never be happy. I don’t know why, and I’ve given up trying to figure it out.

      You could wave a magic wand and fix all those issues, and she’d find something new to complain about. And as you say, some of this could just stem from the fact that she expected one kind of job and is actually working a different one. But I’ve worked with people who clearly understand what the job is, and are accepting of that, but will still find things to complain about.

      You can’t fix those people’s problems. And since you’re not her manager, you really shouldn’t even try to pay lip service to her complaints. “I hate this web page. It won’t load.” “Yeah, that sucks. Anyway, about the TPS reports…”

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        I’ve started doing this more, gray-rock style. “Yep, sometimes technology just doesn’t work right. I’d try again later.” This is a recent development for me, so I’m not sure yet how well it’s working, but I’m trying!

    2. CatCat*

      I’d ignore her “This web page isn’t loading!” (ignore, I mean, so what) or give bored and confused responses to the annoying office stuff. Like, “My office is hot!”, “Oooooookay?” and shrug.

      As for complaining about the boss. “I hope you’re not saying that to me because you think I agree with you” is the type of thing that can really take the wind out of a complainer’s sails. (Even if you agree with some of her points, doesn’t matter, because you don’t want to talk about this.) Or, “Sounds like something you should bring up with Boss instead of me.”

      1. Fran Fine*

        give bored and confused responses

        I’m not ashamed to admit I do this all the time, lol. People get tired of complaining to me because of it and stop altogether.

    3. AMD*

      How do you feel about directly asking her about it? Like, “I have to confess something, I get dragged down by negativity really easily, so when I hear a lot of negative talk about our job it affects my day a lot. Would you be willing to try to keep our conversations more positive-focused?”

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        I’m working myself up to this! I’ve laid some breadcrumbs for it, but I haven’t felt comfortable doing a complete 180 from trying to support her to telling her I can’t handle the negativity.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Eh, why not go with something like, “I understand that learning a new job and being in a new place is not easy. I am here to help make it easier for you but please understand that there are just some things I will not be able to fix such as the heat in the building.”

          This is the ground work, now as each instance comes up, you can say, “The heat in the building is nothing I can fix and others feel uncomfortable from time to time also.” You are setting the tone for “this is what normal looks like around here”.

          I think I would just say, “That’s nothing I can help you with.”

          I do want to point out that the happier you act it’s likely that she will react with even more negativity. And that is because she probably feels unheard. You’re better off saying, “Yep I hear ya but I can’t do anything about that.”

          As far as the boss, keep in mind that she is an adult and the boss is an adult. They need to navigate their own relationship with each other, try very hard not to insert yourself here. This means use redirects. “Yeah, sometimes the boss has to reschedule. It doesn’t really bother me because I think he’s a good boss. But if it bothers you then perhaps you need to speak to him directly about it.”
          I worked one place where I routinely used the idea of speaking directly to the other person, and this tactic shut down so. much. crap.

      2. I should really pick a name*

        I don’t think that phrasing would result in a positive response.

        I’d suggest simply not engaging with the negative comments, kind of like CatCat describes.

    4. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      Most people like this don’t even know that they Eeyore personalities are SO off-putting. Would responding with, “well, what is going RIGHT today?” or “Wow, such a negative nelly” be appropriate in the setting. A cue that she is complaining too much? If you are a mentor I would just tell her that how she is communicating is off putting and may hurt her professionally.

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        I like this framing of “What’s going right today?” and asking her to spin something positive. I’m her peer, not manager or mentor, but because I’m in the office more than others (and my other coworkers are notorious for not being willing to train people), I’ve become her de-facto trainer and main point of contact. Not what I want, but I also want to get her up to speed so she can help me with my admin work! So I don’t want to be rude to her either.

        1. banoffee pie*

          She might not realise how much she’s complaining, some people don’t (I’m not sure how, but they don’t!) It can be very annoying to listen to, I sympathise

          1. allathian*

            Some people simply have a very negative personality. Their internal monolog is pretty much all negatives and almost no positives. I know because I used to be like that, and I’d maybe say one out of ten of the negative things I was thinking and give the impression that I was complaining all the time. I almost never said anything positive, even when I caught myself thinking it. It took therapy and a bit of tough love from people I care about, and a conscious decision to at least try and see some positive things in my daily life for me to change.

    5. Twisted Lion*

      I have a coworker that was like that and I told her “Honestly, these things are not that bad or life changing. You have a choice here which is learn to deal with it or job search” LOL.

      But Im salty.

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        I sort of did this the other day… I asked her if she really wanted the part of the job where she helps us with industry admin and she looked very shocked and scared. Which made me feel bad and slightly back track into “I don’t ask that to be negative; I value your work and, as a peer, want you to not be miserable when you’re here.”

        So at least I’ve started naming the issue some and hopefully it’ll make her think about how she’s coming across all the time!

        1. Xenia*

          This to me is a great response, actually—you’re telling her that you are noticing her complaining and are taking it seriously, which is probably not her intent.

        2. Oh Behave*

          Hopefully you can react with more of this. Some people get into a rut. If she’s unsure about the job, insecurity will come out as complaints. It’s tiring to deal with.
          Stop reacting to everything you’re able to ignore. Every time you respond to her you are reinforcing for her that it’s ok for her to do this. She does not want to be cheered up.
          Over time her behavior WILL rub off on you. Be careful to not let her attitude get to you.

    6. cabbagepants*

      Honestly, after dealing with negative co-workers, I would say to do less work around this! Don’t try to change her mood. If you think she truly needs help with something, put her in touch with the right people. Otherwise I would be pretty minimal in my response. “Oh no, that sucks!” at the first complaint, a wan smile at the second, and no response to subsequent complaints.

      1. LKW*

        Yeah, at some point you ask “are you venting or do you want solutions?” And at some point you have to say “Look, your venting is making my day harder, so I need you to find another outlet.”

    7. HannahS*

      I get that being around endless complaining is tiring. Some of it, you can mitigate–especially around the boss. You can absolutely say, “Sorry to cut you off, I’m just not comfortable speaking so negatively about Miranda,” and immediately change the subject. You can shrug and say, “Sorry to hear” when she complains that the office is too hot, and then repeat “Sorry to hear” when she continues. If you’re supremely uninteresting to complain to, she may cut back a little.

    8. Kara*

      I think being overly cheery is probably just going to fuel her fire! I would actually ask her to stop.

        1. Daffodilly*

          YES. For real. I hate incessantly cheery people, especially if they are some sort of self-appointed “example” for others.
          Toxic positivity is a real thing. And sometimes – like in this thread – people get branded as “negative” and that becomes a self fulfilling lens and suddenly you somehow think of yourself as the positive one and yet all you can see in them is negative.
          And somehow, that’s their fault?

        2. allathian*

          Oh yeah, absolutely. A generally positive or neutral person who nevertheless realizes that sometimes life sucks and it’s appropriate to recognize that is what I strive for and what I prefer in my coworkers.

      2. Budgie Buddy*

        I was thinking the same! This could escalate into a standoff real fast. And then the Eeyore will write in about their aggressively cheerful coworker…

        1. Need More Sunshine*

          Very true! At the moment, I’m going for neutral or positive, but not aggressively cheerful, just leaning more on the optimistic side vs pessimistic. One time she said it looked like it was going to rain after a few weeks of none, so I said something like “Oh good! We need some! I’ve been wanting to go out kayaking in the river but it’s been too low.”

          Her response was “Well it looks like that downpour from (northern location) and we DON’T need that and I’ll get CAUGHT it in driving home.” (Yes, she really does emphasize words a ton like this!)

          So I just said, “True, it would suck to drive through it, but I’m glad we’re getting some rain.”

          1. MiloSpiral*

            Oof. OP, I feel your pain. My boss behaves similarly.

            Your scripts seem great, but honestly, I’d agree with others who are saying that you are putting too much work into this. You sound like you like to help people and empathize with them easily, and that’s great! But it also seems to me like engaging with her about her problems is just draining to you, and if that’s the case, I don’t blame you.

            One of the best scripts I’ve gotten to get someone to STOP doing this, rather than just to diminish your own investment in it, is: “Huh, that’s too bad. What do you think you’ll do about it?”

            It requires no work on your part and it turns their problem back to THEM. I’d wager that after a couple times of hearing this, your coworker won’t go to you so often with her problems. Right now you are giving her something, including when you respond with positivity. If you ask her what SHE plans to do about it, you are not giving her anything. A sink can’t suck down water if there’s nothing to drain.

    9. Anon for This*

      My kids call such behavior “pain Olympics”. Does she realize she is always being negative? It would be learned behavior and she doesn’t know she is always complaining. Might want to point it out to her.

      1. Need More Sunshine*

        I do have a feeling it’s learned behavior. From the style of the complaining (like complaining, but with a smile and a collegial tone of voice), I get the feeling that she’s previously worked in offices where people bonded over complaining about their work, and so she’s learned that all work must be annoying and everyone must love complaining about their work all the time. For her, it seems like a way for her to try to connect to people, but it for me, it just wears me down!

        1. Parakeet*

          This makes me suspect that it’s at least partly a matter of different office cultures and her not having quite figured out the new one yet. I don’t think there’s necessarily anything wrong with a culture where people commiserate in a friendly way about the tech not working (the bad-talking is a different issue, and maybe more related to the big picture – the encouragement to have a big-picture conversation with the boss seems like a good idea, even if she won’t go for it). It’s just clearly not your office’s culture, or one that you would find amenable I gather.

          I wonder if she’d be receptive to something along the lines of “Hey, I’ve noticed that it seems like you’re trying to bond with people over complaints about things like equipment not working. I know that’s common in some offices, but it’s not the culture here and it’s likely to make people think you resent the job. If you want to connect, a lot of people here [chit-chat by the water cooler, go out to lunch once a week, whatever it is that people there do to bond].”

        2. banoffee pie*

          Well if she’s doing it with a smile and you think she’s trying to connect, that’s a start. It’s better than dealing with a relentlessly negative person. Maybe you could chat to her about something else, something you have in common, and she might latch onto that as a way to connect. Good luck!

        3. Batgirl*

          I’ve had some luck with: “Are you just really unhappy here?” Or “You’re coming across like you don’t want to be here” when it’s a complainer who thinks they’re doing something unremarkable. It sounds concerned enough to say nicely, but marks it out as a record scratch. Also something like “I’m really starting to worry about all the issues you’re flagging. Are you doing okay?”

      2. Slipping The Leash*

        I used to have a coworker with a 10-year old. She would say to him, “Did you say something? You know I can’t hear you when you whine.” Totally worked.

    12. learnedthehardway*

      Can you ask her, “Do you want help, or do you just want to complain about this?” If they just want to complain, I would learn to tune them out.

      Some people want to vent. It’s how they deal with stress. They don’t realize that they’re displacing the stress onto other people.

      (Personally, I’m a vent-er. But I try to make it funny / amusing for others. I work through problems verbally, but make a point of finding the lighter side of it.)

    13. Tessie Mae*

      Some good replies here.

      I will only add that I used to work with a peer who complained all the time. I came to accept that it was just his personality. To help me cope with it (somewhat), I played a little game in my head: How long before X complains? How many complaints will there be today? And so forth. It didn’t solve the issue, but it did help me deal with it.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Lol. I think I’m going to try this with my boss. Right now my game consists of “How soon after I send this message is she going to call me?”

    14. Feliz*

      If I were you how I’d interact with her depends on the complaint – but I’d also trying to stop fixing things for her. Engaging more and trying to be helpful doesn’t seem to be working.

      Complaints about the boss/coworkers/other people – I’d shut that down pretty quickly. “I really don’t agree with you” or “That’s something you should discuss directly with The Boss” or “What has The Boss said when you raised that with her?”

      You don’t want to be pegged by others in the office or your boss as agreeing/being part of this. I’ve watched this happen – management was very aware of it and it negatively impacted the people doing it.

      For complaints about other stuff – I’ve had success with “That sounds tough, what do you think you’ll do about it?” Used a few times it seems to stop the person coming to vent to me.

      Good luck, a bit of venting is fine but endless complaining is so draining!

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      Keep an open mind, be willing and ready to say “Let me think about that and get back to you” when you get questions you haven’t expected, and proactively ask your own manager or predecessor for tips and ongoing feedback on how you’re doing as a manager.

    2. Grits McGee*

      If you aren’t quite sure what you want a work product to look like, be up front about it and set the expectation that there will be trial-and-error and revisions. I had a brand new manager who, while not a bad person, was not great at articulating (or even really knowing) what she wanted from me, resulting in lots of frustration on my end trying to read tea leaves and predict what she was going to find objectionable.

      2. Yorick*

        This is a great point. If you’re not sure, have them check in with you about it often. For example, for a piece of writing, have them show you an outline before finishing the whole thing. Then you can catch if there’s something about the assignment that you didn’t explain well enough.

    3. Mental Lentil*

      If you type:

      “new manager” site:askamanager.org

      into Google, it will bring up a lot of past discussions here that you might want to look through. Lots of good resources!!!

    4. cubone*

      honestly, just be open to learning and growing and making mistakes. The worst managers I’ve had want to seem like they ALWAYS have everything under control, which usually leads to terrible decisions and secrecy. You can feel when someone is insecure in their role and there’s a huge gap between appearing to have everything under control and being a chaotic, disorganized boss.

      I became a much better manager when I was willing to say “I haven’t decided how to proceed with this project, what do you think?” or “to be honest, I haven’t gotten the info I need from that team yet. But I will follow up today and if we don’t have a clear answer by Friday, I’ll decide at that point if you should proceed without the info or move the deadline.” Basically, showing your work and communicating your thought processes >>> having every single answer.

      Also, 1:1’s, deliver feedback quickly (in most cases – don’t wait for PAs and if it’s small stuff, don’t wait til your next 1:1), ask for help/support from other managers. If you’re looking for books/resources, 2 things helped me most: reading AAM regularly + the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott helped me give feedback better.

        1. cubone*

          I think what I really liked about Radical Candor was that it really demonstrates that the “screaming aggressive jerk boss” is of course terrible…… but so is “passive, insincere boss”. I’m pretty sure there’s a quote in it from someone who had both and says something like: “at least with jerk boss, I knew what they WANTED from me”. That was super eye opening for me, at that point I thought the worst thing you could be as a manager was unkind. But now I think it’s “unclear” (I mean after like, abusive, obviously).

        2. Kelly*

          Thanks for the recommendation on Radical Candor. I’m on a group in my workplace looking on how workplace culture can be improved. We’re looking at various issues, including feedback, workplace process, among other things. Their feedback articles look like they could be useful.

          The reality is that we can only do so much because a fair amount of the perception that our workplace culture isn’t great comes from things we really can’t change come from overly rigid structures in higher education and a public sector work culture that isn’t unionized but still retains a decent number of union work policies. One example of that include a person once passes their one year probationary review, it’s extremely difficult to get fire them. Most of my colleagues really are committed to doing the best job possible, including showing extraordinary flexibility and patience during the last 18 months. There are some that don’t do much more than what is in their job description and enough to get a meets expectation on their annual review. Those of us who have colleagues with that mindset are stuck with them until they retire. The other example is how our job descriptions are written. The job descriptions themselves have very well defined areas, including how many hours we can work and when we can work, in addition to core job duties. That is both a positive and a negative. On one hand, it gives people some ways to push back when asked to spend more time doing tasks that are outside of their core areas. I’ve used that mechanism myself to remind my supervisor that there is another person who has those tasks as his core duties that he should be doing. The negative part of that is it doesn’t allow for adjustments and flexibility for people to assist when circumstances merit it. For example, if campus insists on pretending that everything is normal and Delta isn’t going to lead to increased student and staff getting sick, we are going to need to have some flexibility about work hours and work responsibilities to provide the services that campus is expecting. Staff that have it in their job description that they can only work from 8 to 6 during the week may have to adjust their schedules to work evenings and weekends. Other people may have to cover supervision duties if their colleagues are out because they or their kids are sick.

          It’s a change that has to come from the grassroots up and working with colleagues to create change. There’s always going to be those who are happy with the status quo and any changes that they perceive to be harmful in some ways to them they will resist. They may not like actually having to get cross trained on their coworker’s duties or having a tough conversation about their own performance that results in some of their duties being shared with others.

    5. HannahS*

      I think it’s important to take time to reflect on your new role. Typically, a manager leads/guides people; it’s not the same as being more senior at task-doing. When I’ve seen new managers struggle, it’s often because they’re still trying to “own” the tasks that they did before, and are missing that their job is to lead the team in doing the work.

      Be aware of power dynamics. When you become a supervisor, your words and actions have more weight. If you ask someone to do something, they’re more likely to say yes–even at their own detriment–than they would have when you were their peer; if you send people emails late at night, they might feel more pressure to respond off-hours–that sort of thing.

    6. Sparkles McFadden*

      I always reminded myself that my job was to organize things as well as possible so the staff could concentrate on the work.

      Communicate. Tell staff what you expect from them. Be explicit and clear. Most people want to do a good job but they need to know what your definition of a good job entails. You’d be surprised at what people need to be told. (Seriously, I had to explain to someone why he couldn’t change his clothes in an open work area.)

      Address issues as they arise. Nothing in a yearly review should come as a surprise. Include positive feedback regularly too. If a direct report does something particularly well, acknowledge that in real time too.

      Remember that being completely fair isn’t possible because people are different and have different needs. Aim for treating everyone equitably.

      Communicating upwards is vital as well. Know what your boss is expecting and keep her informed of progress and delays.

    7. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      This feels like kind of a downer, but it was the most helpful piece of advice I got as a new manager: this might feel unreasonably hard for a couple of years, but it will get better after that.

      Managing people is very, very difficult, and it is 100% okay and normal to feel that. You don’t have to knock it out of the park on your first day, and if anyone is expecting you to, they are being unreasonable, not you.

    9. LKW*

      Support in public, criticize in private. Don’t throw your team members under the bus. If they screw up something, it’s on you. You didn’t set expectations with enough detail, you didn’t monitor or check their work, you didn’t do something. If they keep making mistakes, deal with the person making mistakes constructively.

      When they do good or outstanding work, credit them. Make their progress part of your job.

    10. Anonymous Educator*

      – Don’t micromanage but have clear expectations with clear measurements of what you want your direct reports to accomplish and by what deadlines
      – If your direct reports have the PTO, approve any time-off requests quickly and happily, as long as there’s necessary coverage
      – Don’t wait for your direct reports to ask for a raise or promotion… if they’re doing good work, vie for those things on their behalf
      – If there are conflicts among your direct reports, don’t tell them to sort it out themselves if you don’t think that will actually be possible and if you believe the conflicts will hamper their productivity

      1. SpartanFan*

        I always try to go one step further than your PTO line. I encourage my team to use their PTO. Last thing I want is for someone to lose time.

    11. Qwerty*

      – No one is communicating as clearly as they think they are
      – Everything takes longer than you remember it taking. Managers are very bad at estimating at when a task/project should be complete
      – You can’t do everything yourself
      – Sometimes you have to give people space to fail so they can learn (or show you that their method actually does work)
      – Praise in public, criticize in private
      – Externally take the heat for your team mistakes/problems, but redirect any kudos to your contributors. Even if someone screws up or is bad at their job, you don’t blame them when talking to higher ups or other teams because at the end of the day you are accountable. Similarly, when you talk to a contributor who underperforms or made a mistake, that criticism should be coming from you as an “these are the expectations of the role” not “Big Boss wasn’t happy”
      – Being the boss is lonely. You can’t joke with people like you used to, and there will be a power imbalance underlying most interactions

      I highly recommend “The Making of a Manager” by Julie Zhuo and wish I’d had it when I started managing. Her target audience is new managers and one of the first chapters talks about feeling like you are overwhelmed and drowning, which was so nice to hear that it wasn’t just me.

      1. cubone*

        “Everything takes longer than you remember it taking. Managers are very bad at estimating at when a task/project should be complete”

        Such a great one. I left my last job for a myriad of reasons but my new manager’s insistence on “this should only take you 5 minutes”, “if this takes more than 30 min, you’re doing it wrong” was a huge part of it. I get giving time estimates as a way to guide how much energy/investment needs to go into it, but nobody takes the same time to complete the same project. It’s a terrible management style.

    12. get2knoweachother*

      Make sure to take an interest in your employees as people. One of my biggest complaints about my current manager is I know next to nothing about him, and he knows nothing about me. Its kind of frustrating sometimes. Its hard to relate to him or trust him, bc he so business, business, business.

      I am not saying be BFFs, but knowing about your employees kids, pets, where they are going on vacation, hobbies is nice. It makes everyone a little more human.

    13. NoviceManagerGuy*

      Don’t let your reports slide on what you know they should be doing better just because you’re new and don’t want to start on a challenging note. It doesn’t get easier, just has to be done.

    14. Bex*

      Set clear expectations, communicate frequently, and provide coaching and feedback in the moment vs waiting weeks to talk about issues. Check in with your direct reports periodically to see if they are getting what they need form you as a manager. Think about the best managers you’ve worked for and identify what you think made them successful, then try to replicate.

    15. The Prettiest Curse*

      I’ve never been a manager (other than temporarily supervising event volunteers), but I’ve found that the most useful quality in a manager is knowing when to intervene or escalate an issue when one of their direct reports is running into roadblocks. It just saves so much time when a higher-level person is ignoring my emails to have my boss follow up instead.
      Best of luck in your new role!

    16. If you tell me to go I'm gone*

      Never add “aaaand go” to anything you are asking someone to do. It is annoying and rather demeaning.

    17. Skeeder Jones*

      There are a couple of things my manager does that I’ve never experienced before as a direct report. We do have a very close team and I think it is in part due to her managing style. At the end of every one-on-one, she asks a number of questions:
      What’s working?
      What’s not working?
      What do you need from me?
      Is there anyone that you’d like to thank?
      The first 3 questions really help me perform better as I know I have her support and her willingness to provide whatever help is needed. The fact that she asks these questions shows me that she doesn’t want us to struggle and they are not just words for her. The last question is the one that I think really contributes to team unity and camaraderie. I’ll randomly get emails from my manager saying that she was talking to so and so and they wanted to thank me for x or y and it really helps me feel appreciated.
      I’m not keen on being a manager some day but if it ended up happening, I would definitely ask these questions of my direct reports on the regular.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      Always remember that you need them as much as they need you. If you really think about this it’s kind of humbling. Good leaders serve their people.

      Keep the basics in place. Make sure they have what they need to do their jobs. Make sure they understand what you expect from them and what the company expects from them. Encourage questions. They will test you with simpler things to see how you handle it. If you pass the test (answer in an intelligent and informative manner), they will bring you harder and harder questions. When they bring you hard questions that is a COMPLIMENT- not only do they trust you they also think you are up for the challenge. This is what you want them to do- you don’t want shoddy work going out the door.

    19. GI*

      One of the lessons I learned: I was an amazing manager for people who were very similar to me, and probably not that amazing for people who were the opposite of me. If I could do it all over again, I would try to go into it knowing that some people want and need completely different things than I would ever want or need, and I would be more curious about finding out what they want instead of assuming that just treating them the way I would want to be treated is going to work.

    20. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Don’t try to make yourself look good at other people’s expense. I’ve seen newly minted managers so focused on trying to demonstrate that they can manage others that they lose sight of the actual business objective. Especially if they aren’t doing great or feel insecure in other aspects of their role, they often try to at least show that they can ‘manage’ their employees, which often hinders their employees’ productivity. They do this by looking too hard for, or inventing, problems to solve, trying to get people to travel during the pandemic when Zoom meetings have been working just fine, or kissing up and punching down. Don’t be that manager.

    21. Generic Name*

      When you give feedback, be as specific as possible. Provide examples of the behavior you are looking to change. Especially if the feedback relates to “soft skills” like leadership qualities or how you interact with colleagues.

  5. Valancy Snaith*

    A friend of mine told me that when she was six years old she told her mom she wanted to be a dentist, just like her. Well, she is now a dentist, just like her mom was! How many people can honestly say they’re doing what they wanted to do when they were six?

    When I was six I had a burning desire to be a writer or “a flower person” (which I think by which I meant florist. Now I serve as an officer in the military and flowers are not part of my professional milieu!

    1. Exif*

      I wanted to be a veterinarian. My parents frantically saved money to fund my dream. I got to college and flunked out of freshmen chemistry. I am not a veterinarian.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I wanted to be a vet, but then I found out they have to put animals to sleep sometimes. I knew my limits there.

        Now I work in communications, which is perfect for a bookish kid.

      2. Lady Ann*

        I wanted to be a veterinarian but then I realized I’m super squeamish and can’t stand the site of blood…so yeah that wouldn’t have worked out well.

      1. PostalMixup*

        I wanted to be a chemist and got a PhD in molecular biology. Now I work in genome engineering. Close enough!
        I also wanted to be a paleontologist or an architect. Not so much on those.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m kind of the other way around from your friend. When I was little and my mom was talking about her work as a medical coder and admin for a physician practice, I was like “Mom, this is so boring, can we like watch paint dry or something instead?” (And I wanted to be a corporate lawyer and specialize in American history, I don’t even know.)

      And now for the last fifteen years I’ve been a medical coder and administrator (albeit for large academic hospital systems, not small practices), and my mother has managed to bite back EVERY SINGLE “I told you so” that I’ve seen cross her face. :)

      1. siiiiiiiiiigh*

        Yup. I wanted to do anything other than what my parents did–project manager, government employee, and librarian. So what did I end up doing? Getting a library degree and becoming a project manager for the same agency as my stepmom.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Ha, this is me too! My dad is a librarian, and he knew from about age 8 that I was going to be a librarian. He even called my specialty and what I’d be good at. I resisted hard, convinced there was no way a cool teenager like me was going to work in the same stuffy industry as my dad (way less about libraries and more about showing up my parents). Well, dad clearly knew best because he was right on the money. I’m now a librarian and I love it.

      1. AfT*

        Yep, I wanted to be an Olympic speedskater and ended up an economist… just like my parent! I’m not particularly good at sports, so it’s probably good that I ended up being decent at math.

    5. Ali G*

      Kind of? I grew up in a growing suburban area (outside Philly in 80s/90s) and I saw a lot of forest farms, and open space converted to housing. I remember saying to my mom that when I grew up I was going to buy all the open land up so people couldn’t put houses on it anymore.
      I have a Master’s in Forest Management and have worked my whole career in some relation to forest and species conservation.

    6. PhyllisB*

      I wanted to be a nurse. Had my ACT scores sent to several nursing schools (this was before the days of community college nursing programs.) Then I failed high school chemistry and was afraid to try it.

      1. PhyllisB*

        My youngest daughter said that when she grew up, she wanted to be a bathroom. (Of course, she was 2 at the time.) Her son stated he wanted to be a dog. Don’t see much likelihood of either of them reaching their career goals.

        1. Pam*

          Ha! In ny early years, I was a dog. My name was Jet.

          Later, I had a pack of wolves(invisible of course) that lived in a nearby power substation

        2. Karo*

          I wanted to be a “mommy bird” when I grew up. It was super disappointing to find out that you couldn’t change species.

    7. Elenna*

      I wanted to be an astronaut. Still do, but not enough to leave my steady office job and do… something?… in the hopes of getting a small chance.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I wanted to be a teacher at that age and did become a teacher. I also briefly wanted to be a marine biologist (by which I meant someone who is friends with dolphins) but knew I wasn’t enough of a science person and it was probably a less glamorous job than I imagined. I’d still like to have dolphin friends but not professionally :)

    9. Evil*

      I wanted to be a veterinarian when I was a kid!

      Turns out I’m very squeamish. Yeah, I went into accounting/business instead.

      1. LavaLamp*

        I wanted to be a fighter pilot. I realized pretty quickly that while flying things are cool, I have 0 desire to undergo any kind of basic training for any military. Nor do I like the idea of uniforms.

        I work from home now, but much prefer either WFH or laid back offices where you don’t have to dress up much.

    10. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      When I was in kindergarten, I told my grandfather I wanted to be a farmer. He immediately pointed out that Cornell has a great Ag School. I think he even said “Ag School,” as opposed to something more age appropriate, because that’s the kind of family I have (not farmers, btw).

      50 years later I work on a computer, ignore my garden, and my twitter feed is full of farmers.

    11. notacompetition*

      always wanted to be a writer. And I have always been one, from journalism to business copy to songwriting and beyond.

    12. Anon this time*

      This was a real problem in my early life. Not just at age 6, but into my 20s.

      The only jobs I had any exposure to were the jobs of my parents, close relatives, and teachers/professors. So the career choices that I was was aware of were scientist, teacher, or musician.

      Turns out I was not really cut out for any of those jobs, despite my best efforts, but I was lucky enough to eventually stumble into technical writing. Which I had previously only known about from reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

      1. PookieLou*

        I’m kind of the same! For a while as a kid I wanted to write adventure novels. I learned that I’d make a horrible creative writer, but a great technical writer. I worked on a dev team once who all seemed sorry that I had to do all the boring documentation work, but I absolutely love that kind of thing!

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Some technical writing can be fun. I’m a fiction writer, but I love writing step-by-step procedural documents and SOP manuals with screenshots and illustrations. I wrote one for Oldjob and one for Exjob. :)

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            I remember when I took technical writing in college. The Prof told us that poets often made very good technical writers. The goal of both disciplines is to explain something in as few words as possible. (Unless you’re Wordsworth. Then you just run on and on and on.)

          2. Skeeder Jones*

            I do too! I can’t even say why but maybe because at the end of the day, you have clear evidence that you got stuff done and what we write helps people do better at their jobs, which brings me a lot of satisfaction as well.

      2. Lunch Ghost*

        I wanted to write fiction as a kid, decided as a teenager (after a suggestion from my parents) I’d be better off with a career in technical writing so I wasn’t at the mercy of publishing for my career job… and couldn’t get a job in technical writing.

        At least I do write fiction on the side.

    14. HannahS*

      I had a long list of professions when I was six (doctor like my mom, teacher, artist, ballerina, etc.) which was ever-changing, but doctor and teacher were always at the top. Now I’m a doctor in the same specialty as my mom, headed for the same sub-specialty, too.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I, too, had a long list of professions I wanted to be when I grew up (actress, singer, and writer).

        I never managed to make the first two things happen (and considering the state of the film and music industries, it’s a miracle I didn’t – I’d be eaten alive), but I am a writer – I’m a corporate communications manager and have had short fiction and full length novels published.

    15. Anon for This*

      Showing my age here. When I was six professional women were nurses or teachers. That was pretty much it. Of the two, I preferred teacher. I have had a wonderful career in national security policy – still a very male dominated field. I am grateful every day to the trailblazing women who went before me. I sometimes wonder what career I would have chosen had there been more options when I was younger, though I didn’t do too badly!

      1. CatMintCat*

        I am of the same vintage, and chose teaching because I would make a horrible nurse, and knew that from the age of five.
        However, I landed in the right job for me and am still, at the age of 62, teaching small children. Not interested in retiring yet because I still enjoy my job most days. Have to say I’m not loving lockdown teaching, but that will pass.

    16. CargoPants*

      I wanted to be an actual animal, and now my 6 year old daughter dearly wishes to be a cat. Neither of us are going to make that dream come true. :)

      However I am following in my dad’s footsteps, he was moved into a director role at a youngish age and spent his career managing his department, and just recently retired. I never thought I wanted to go into management until it dawned on me that yes, management stuff is what I actually like doing and what I’m good at. So I just moved into my first management role this summer, managing my current team. It’s very different from what I thought I’d be doing – which was musical therapy (that was my mom’s pick!).

    17. Jay*

      Me, sort of. I wanted to be a nurse. My dad was a doc and he said “OK, when you’re 14, you can become a candy striper and see if you like working in a hospital.” I did that and discovered that girls could be doctors (I was born in 1960 and I honestly hadn’t met any women docs before that – or it hadn’t registered). I’m now getting ready to retire after 35 years of medical practice. Not dissing nurses – not at all. It would not have been a good fit for me.

      My husband picked up a piece of mica on a hike at age 6, became a geologist in that instance, and went on to a PhD in geology and a career in science education. We have spent years telling our daughter that we are not normal, most people don’t decide what they want to do at 6 and 14, and it’s not just OK but actually GOOD that she went to college with an open mind.

    18. TotesMaGoats*

      I started helping my mom when I was 7 and she is a college registrar. At 16 I told her I wanted to be a registrar. I’m currently an assistant dean and love that I can talk with my mom about work stuff and she totally gets it.

    19. Macaroni Penguine*

      When I was six, I wanted to be Batman. It turns out that this is a unique role in the niche field of vigilante heroism. These days I work in the social services field as a case manager for individuals with complex needs. So maybe I have become Batman saving the world a lot?

    20. urban teacher*

      I wanted to be a rodeo clown. I am now a special education teacher and feel that my job is close. I keep bulls from charging and entertain people around me.

    21. PookieLou*

      My 6-year old dream was probably something to do with raising animals or figure skating, neither of which are a good fit for me at all. But even from a very young age I was always captivated by the sound of people speaking foreign languages. It was amazing that what to my ear was just a string of sounds, was completely comprehensible to them. The way every language had its own distinct musical quality was mesmerizing. I still feel this way about language, and I’ve been fortunate to work language-focused jobs. So even though I don’t spin on ice or train ponies, in a way I have fulfilled my 6-year old self’s dream.

    22. Jake*

      Nope. I wanted to be a lawyer.

      I’m a construction manager.

      I do work with contracts a lot, so there is some overlap, but frankly, I’m not even close to anything I wanted to be before age 19. At 19 I went from wanting to be a road design engineer to a construction engineer, and from there it has been pretty smooth sailing.

    24. Donkey Hotey*

      Ish.
      I remember saying I wanted to be a writer when I was young. Didn’t think it would be user manuals for large industrial equipment, but yes my job is making words line up well.

    25. anmallvr*

      I always wanted to work with animals. Got a Zoology degree and did work with animals for several years and then life (aka the recession) detoured me for a few years but i am back at it and even in a high paid position because of the experienced I gained while on my detour!

    26. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I wanted to be a children’s book writer and illustrator when I was six. I very much did not want to have my mom’s job, which was being a college professor, since it seemed like her work was very stressful (and, as an adult, I realize also very toxic).

      I’m a lawyer.

    27. Mantis Tobaggan, PhD*

      I wanted to be an author. All my jobs so far have had writing as a key skill/daily task, but always business or policy oriented. I’ve realized I’m not great at creative writing or fiction but still enjoy what I do.

    28. Magda*

      I wanted to be an author, and now I am an author! Unfortunately, I didn’t understand that being an author isn’t really a real job, for the vast majority of people. You’d have to be extremely successful to make consistent and reliable money this way. So now I’m am an author and have another job, which was not exactly the dream. But close!

    29. I edit everything*

      I’ve pretty much always wanted to be a writer or do something involving horses (cowboy, jockey, etc.). I’m now an editor, so I got close. The project I’m procrastinating at this very moment involves a lot of rewriting.

      I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never be a cowboy, but it’s a deep regret.

    30. Biology dropout*

      I wanted to be an artist from the time I was 5 or so. My family did all the could to talk me out of it, I barely had time to take art classes in high school due to my academic schedule (really, did I need that much science!?). And lo and behold, I am an artist, or more specifically a book designer and art teacher to make money.

    31. Black Horse Dancing*

      I so wanted to be an eventer. Olympics and all. Sigh. Ah, well. I work for local government.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Same. Horses are so freaking expensive, I think you can basically only do equestrian sports if you are already super rich or want to work as a badly paid stable hand for years. As a kid, I got kicked out of the pony club for not having a pony … still slightly bitter about that!
        I enjoy my current job, which has absolutely nothing to do with horses.

        1. Black Horse Dancing*

          I would love a horse again–just a little one to ride trails or brush–problem is, I don’t have the resources. I want an old style Morgan. Or a vanner.

        2. Lonely Aussie*

          Every Olympics people go on about the snobby dressage people but eventing is where the real money is.
          It’s is particularly expensive because it’s three different events and usually held over three days. Meaning it’s a week off work/away from home and either you have a truck that doubles as accommodation or you camp/hotel it.
          Gear wise it’s two (or three) different saddles, multiple bridles, sets of boots, studs and strap goods.
          The eventers I know usually have three different coaches, one for each phase so there’s more cost. Proper care of an upper level event horse at an event requires someone on the ground so if you can’t rope a friend or spouse in you need to pay for that too.
          It’s also much more demanding on the horses so there’s more soundness therapy, vet visits and specialist equipment (tens machines, fancy boots, massage systems and so on).

          I wanted to work with horses as a kid but grew too tall to be a jockey and after doing some stud work pretty much lost interest in dealing with horse people.

        3. Delta Delta*

          Horses are so expensive! I was recently given a retired thoroughbred, and we joke that it was the gift of 20 years of board and vet bills.

    32. Stitch*

      Not at 6, but at age 11 or so I wanted to be a lawyer and I am one. Not the kind of lawyer I thought (I’m the kind who writes in my basement all day, but I love it).

    33. Llellayena*

      When I was little I insisted I was going to be a bus driver. I’m kinda glad I didn’t go that route (pun very intended) since I hate stop-and-go traffic…

    34. Asenath*

      I had a range of ambitions which coalesced (long after I was 6) into becoming a scientist. Alas, scientists (at least in the field I was eyeing) required math that was simply beyond me, although God knows I spent far too much time trying to achieve that level of math, and sitting in science courses requiring it, understanding so little I didn’t even know how to formulate a question. I spent the happiest part of my working life doing admin work in offices, which I liked, and which I had dismissed as a teenager because it would be so boring. I also sometimes take courses out of personal interest – I do much better in courses I am actually interested in and apparently have some natural ability at than I did in courses requiring the higher levels of mathematics.

    35. Life-long librarian*

      Apparently as a very young child, I would “organize” the books on the shelves of the local library.

      25+ years later I have an MLIS and work in the library!

    36. FACS*

      I wanted to be a cowboy. I kind of backed into medical school and was consistently amazed by the “I have wanted to be a pediatrician/cardiologist/surgeon since I was 6” people.

    37. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I thought I had always wanted to be a pediatrician, but I got a nice surprise on my way to start my BEd when I was digging through an old box and found a drawing of myself as… a teacher! So I guess I am living my 7 year old dream. Alas, my broadway star, costume designer, famous ballerina in the winter and famous figure skater in the summer, or mermaid ambitions didn’t pan out.

    38. Never Nicky*

      At six, I wanted to be a writer and write for newspapers and magazines. Or something in the medical field so I could help people.

      I spent years NOT doing that, but in my thirties fell into marketing and communications and then into health comms and PR. Now I edit a journal in the health field, and regularly have stuff I’ve either written or ghost written published in a variety of media.

      Six year old me would have been thrilled. Fifty something me is pretty chuffed too.

    39. usually anon*

      I wanted to be a bridge tender, growing up near a small bridge in Seattle that always had a lighted booth that looked like a perfect place to not deal with people and watch interesting things/people go by.
      Then I realized the solitude required shift work, and adult me passed up job openings (at that very same bridge) with a slight pang for young me who never would learn to enjoy dealing with people.

      1. pieforbreakfast*

        I live in Portland which has multiple bridge tenders. I used to do trauma response volunteering and had multiple visits to bridge tenders who witnessed people jumping to their deaths. This was not what I expected when signing up.

    40. RagingADHD*

      Not me, but a good friend of mine declared at age 5 that she was going to be a doctor and move to Africa to help children. And indeed, she now teaches pediatric emergency medicine in Africa.

    41. Llama face!*

      Sadly, becoming a codebreaking spy scientist pilot detective archaeologist was not a valid career path for me. However I do enjoy my work making order out of office chaos and tracking information and projects (I’m in admin).

      1. Random Biter*

        “I do enjoy my work making order out of office chaos and tracking information and projects.”

        And if that’s not codebreaking/detective/archaeologist work I don’t know what is.

    42. Lunch Ghost*

      I wanted to be a baker. Then at a Halloween party we had to stick our hands in a bowl of “guts” (pasta with food coloring or something) and I didn’t want to, and someone told me if I wanted to be a baker I had to get used to sticking my hands in things like that, and I decided then I wouldn’t be a baker. (In hindsight I think the problem was that I had myself half-convinced it really was guts. If I’d been able to switch mental movies and pretend I was, like, inventing a pasta cake, I’d probably have been fine.)

      From then on I wanted to be a writer, and I would “take notes” on books I read which would have beautifully foreshadowed a career in technical writing if I’d made it. Which I didn’t.

      My siblings are all in jobs they wanted from a young age, though. (For example, my sister the NICU nurse, who was inspired by a classmate’s parent’s presentation about their job in grade school.)

    43. Random Biter*

      I so wanted to be a vet until I realized euthanizing animals was part of the job. I was horrified. Of course, the fact that I had abysmal math scores were also a deciding factor. My boss refers to me as his “Cat Herder Extraordinaire” so maybe that’s Fate’s way of stepping in. Plus I volunteer for a couple of rescues and have rescue pitbulls.

      My daughter wanted to be a paleontologist until she was about 8, but I think all kids go through that dinosaur stage.

    44. Elizabeth West*

      I wanted to be an actor at five after performing in a school pageant. I LOVED being on stage. When I got older, it was actor, singer, writer, or medical examiner (I was a huge fan of Quincy). There was a brief period where I wanted to be a figure skater on TV (also a huge Peggy Fleming/Dorothy Hamill fan).

      Except for the ME, all these jobs seem to have a theme, haha. I sang, did theater, and skated, though not professionally. The only thing I’ve accomplished out of that list is writing, and I’m still working on it. Sadly, I will probably not win an Oscar for acting, but I might someday for writing a screenplay.

    45. California Dreamin’*

      My eldest son (now 24) decided when he was 7 that he wanted to be a game designer (as in video games.) At the time I thought that was akin to saying you want to be a fireman or a MLB player. But he never really wavered from that, got a prestigious degree in game design, and is in his first professional role as a game designer… he basically has his lifelong dream job.
      I have decided my teenaged daughter is an attorney and just doesn’t know it yet. She’s pushing back on the idea… but she did sign up to do Mock Trial this year in her first year of high school. Mom might be right this time.

    46. Robin Ellacott*

      I wanted to be an “owl specialist” because I was obsessed with owls. My specific job is in a pretty niche field but I think it would have sounded interesting to me as a slightly older child… but no owls are involved.

      People with a strong sense of vocation are enviable and I can’t even imagine it. Probably it helped that it was what she saw her mum doing, though. The only person in my circle that I can think of who Always Knew is my dad, who wanted to be either a train driver or an astronomer, and is an astronomer. He also did get to drive a train once.

      1. Delta Delta*

        The awesome thing about owls (which, there are many awesome things about owls) is that you can still be an owler while having a different job! I had a job that involved taking groups on nature outings, one of which was an owling excursion. Our expert was a guy who, IIRC, was an accountant by day and an owl expert at dusk.

    47. Well...*

      I wanted to be an astronaut (ambitiously the first person on Mars lol). Then for a while I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Now I’m a postdoc in theoretical physics. I guess I’ve followed a thread of competitive jobs not typical for my gender.

      I still feel like I haven’t figured out my adult job since I’m not yet in a tt position, and the competition is fierce. There’s no such thing as a theoretical physicist in my subfield in industry, so leaving academia means figuring out something else to do with my life.

    48. kiri*

      When I was a kid, our public library had barcode scanners that were like little pens. I put stickers in all my own books and pretended to check them in and out with a pen. Now I’m a librarian!

    49. JQWADDLE*

      Not me! It was a toss up between wanting to be a figure skater or an architect at 6. I am a software engineer.

      I do have a friend who’s step dad was a crop farmer. She now has her own crop farm in a different city. I don’t know if she aspired to be a crop farmer, but it is pretty cool at almost 40 she can say she has been crop farming for 30 years.

    50. Anonforthis*

      I wanted to design clothes and fashion since I was 9 years old. I have never worked in that job. I have always wanted to. I work in tech.

    51. Redd*

      When I was 6 I told my mother, “I’m going to be a scientist or a teacher or a writer but if I can’t do that I guess I’ll just be a mom.” (I wasn’t being obnoxious on purpose, just had no social awareness whatsoever)

      I worked in phylogenetic research for a few years and in special education for 6, now I’m a stay-at-home mom and do some freelance writing. So I guess I did it!

    52. placeholder for a witty nom-de-plume*

      This is such a wonderful thread! Still working towards being Ellie Sattler-esque (book and 1st Jurassic Park movie version). One of the professions from pre-teen me’s ambitions was always Rx Fire Practitioner; I’ve been working as one for the majority of the past decade and have made it up to the crew boss level. Have worked all types of other jobs- from baker to disaster recovery to backcountry trail crew as well as EMS.

    53. Skeeder Jones*

      I wanted to be a writer and I am (actually a position that combines writing with a ton of other creative work – Instructional Design). The thing was, when I was a kid, I didn’t really know much about writers except that they wrote books and magazine articles. I didn’t know about business writing and once I got introduced to it, it was love at first sight!

    54. Usagi*

      All throughout my childhood, right up until I went to college, I wanted to be a paleontologist — I remember in kindergarten we shared what our future jobs were going to be, and I got to tell my teacher how to spell it. I was going to discover a new dinosaur. I was going to be Dr. Grant from Jurassic Park, and it was going to be amazing.

      Then I got to college, started a Geology degree, and realized, I actually don’t care about this. I still loved dinosaurs, and still wanted to be a paleontologist, but I didn’t want to study 4 years of Geology (in which there were just a couple classes that would be more “paleontology-y”). So I studied Linguistics, Language Acquisition, and Education. I decided I was going to be a Japanese teacher — I’m from Japan, and my dad is Japanese American, so I’m practically natively fluent in both languages.

      But of course it’s not easy to just “become” a teacher; I needed a place to live and a car and a higher degree, and to get all those things I needed a job. So I kind of got stuck in retail. And I was good at it! I got promoted a bunch of times, and eventually got pulled into corporate for a big corporation in tech, which allowed me to change gears a little into Training & Education, which is like teaching.

      Soooo now I’m a Corporate Trainer in HR. And I enjoy it! It’s not what I LOVE doing, but it’s good enough that I’m happy. And now I’m making enough money that I can start saving up to start a collection of fossils. A tooth or a claw or something would look awesome on my desk.

    55. Sallyacious*

      This thread is so much fun to read!
      I wanted to be an actress. And I actually did spend 20 years of my life as a professional actor. And then I stopped wanting to be an actor and now I’m an instructional designer, which is a field I’d never even heard of when I was in high school or college.

      1. Skeeder Jones*

        I had never heard of instructional design either until I was well into my 30s. I totally would have picked this job when I was a kid. I wanted to be a writer and this is writing and so much more of the stuff I love!

    56. Lore*

      I don’t remember this myself but family lore is that I told my first grade teacher I wanted to be an astronaut, an interior designer, or a cocktail waitress. My aunt was a designer but I don’t even know how I knew what a cocktail waitress was! (I work in book publishing.)

    57. Meep*

      When I was six, I wanted to be a composer. I am an amateur composer whose works have been performed at various venues, so maybe I kinda sorta made it? I don’t do it for a living, though. 6-year-old me would have been horrified to find out that I am now a lawyer. :)

    58. Janet Rosen*

      When I was about 10 my dad explained what a Remittance Man was (we were a lower middle class Brooklyn family but he was born and raised in Canada) – among upper crust Brits of an earlier era the black sheep would get dispatched to a distant colony on a handsome annual allowance subject to not showing up again. And this precocious underachiever immediately knew what she wanted to be and, alas, never would be!!!

      1. banoffee pie*

        When I was really small I wanted to be a ballerina, until I eventually saw some photos of ballerinas’ bare feet haha

    59. BunnyWatsonToo*

      When I was 6, I wanted to be a teacher. When I was 10, I wrote to the American Library Association for a pamphlet on how to become a librarian. My bachelors degree is in education, but I’ve been a librarian for 30+ years.

    61. allathian*

      I honestly can’t remember what I wanted to be as a kid, but I knew very early on that I didn’t want to be a scientist. I’d seen my dad tearing his hair when he was writing grant applications late at night after a day spent in the lab a few too many times for that. I had no idea what I wanted to be, so I went to college and got a business degree, because I figured that if I understand how the economy works and how businesses work, that’s going to be useful no matter what I decide to do. The college I went to also had a good reputation for teaching people to actually speak and use foreign languages, as opposed to just grammar. I knew I wanted to learn languages, but I didn’t want to be a teacher. After a number of jobs I realized that the one thing I enjoyed most was when I got the opportunity to translate something. I’ve now been working as a translator for more than 15 years.

    62. Azzo the Turtle*

      I am! I used to play librarian, carefully checking books out to my stuffed animals. I’ve now been a librarian for 18 years and have been fortunate enough to have spent my entire professional career in a job I love and believe in. I’ve also spent my entire professional career at the library I grew up going to serving a community I love; I feel lucky all around.

      Valancy Snaith, please say hello to Barney ;).

    63. Nightengale*

      Six? Yes. I wanted to be a doctor, and also I was reading biographies of Helen Keller and everything else I could about disabilities.

      At 16, I wanted to be a research biologist. I loved medicine but people generally didn’t like me and I didn’t want to add to the problem of doctors without people skills.

      When I got to college I made friends. And also I did research biology in a lab with a professor who had a 5 year old. She occasionally brought him to work and on side-to-side comparison I was much more interested in him than yeast genetics. Also I realized I was disabled myself.

      I taught biology for 5 years to kids with learning disabilities. Then I went to medical school. And now I take care of kids with developmental disabilities.

      Not quite a straight road, but yes pretty much what I wanted to do when I was 6.

    64. Summer Smile*

      From the time I was 8 until I was approximately 12 I wanted to be a detective a la Nancy Drew. I read every single one of the ND books that I could get my hands on.

      I am currently an educator. I have never been involved in police work. I am not a detective and I never have been. I have never solved a crime. Alas!

    65. Anonymous Hippo*

      I was going to be a professional army wife, LOL. I had no idea, I just thought war sounded cool, but grew up in a cult so you could only be a wife. So I figured being a wife and hanging out on base with the other wives and babies would be cool. I am super happy I went an entirely different route lol.

  6. Myrin*

    When do I best ask if a job I would like to apply for can be done remotely?

    I’m not at all someone who actively searches for remote work so I’ve never really paid a lot of attention to the advice given here pertaining to it– I much prefer going somewhere and not intermingling my home and work lives. However, I recently quite by coincidence saw an ad that almost unbelievably hits basically all of my weirdly varied experiences and interests. The thing is that it’s with a company I’m actually a customer of which is based in another “state” (quotation marks because I’m in Germany and that’s the closest equivalent I could think of).

    From what I understand of the role, it’s basically online and phone work only (there’s one duty which might need to be done onsite but possibly a remote connection would be enough) and I know for a fact that they have at least one remote employee already, located in Belgium (who is assigned to customers from the Netherlands and Belgium). I would also be 100% willing to travel there for introductory training or occasional meetings or events, I just don’t want to move.

    Now I’m not sure what to do. Do I send an email before even applying just to ask about this? Do I apply and mention possible remote work in the email my applications materials will be attached to? Do I not mention anything at all and ask about it in a potential interview (a note on that: It’s customary here to list your full address so they’ll see immediately that I live a few hours away. It’s a neighbouring state and it wouldn’t be unrealistic of them to assume I might want to move there)? Something else I might not have thought of?

    I don’t want to waste either their or my time but I’m totally unsure how to solve this most elegantly and effectively. I’d especially welcome a perspective from other German readers.
    (Also, I could’ve sworn we had a letter with that exact question already but damn if I can find it!)

    1. I should really pick a name*

      You could add it to your cover letter.
      I doubt you’d get a response if you email them.
      If you don’t want to waste peoples time, you should probably mention it in a phone screen.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Since you really don’t want to move, I would apply and put that in your application materials. Say something like you did here “I would be willing to travel for introductory training and occasional meetings and events, but am not looking to permanently relocate”.

      That way, if they are open to remote work and think you are a strong candidate, they will move ahead. If they are not open to remote work, they will screen you out and no time wasted.

      1. Myrin*

        I don’t understand? I’m explicitly not looking for remote work and wouldn’t even consider it if not for a very unique combination of factors in this case. I just came across this ad while perusing the company’s website, no job boards involved.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Idk if this is what Anastasia was thinking, but you could try to find the same posting on a job board to see whether they list it as remote or not. But I wouldn’t put too much stock in that tbh.

    4. Chc34*

      I did this (US, not Germany, though): I applied for a job in another state that didn’t specifically state it could be done remotely. I was just upfront in the first paragraph of my cover letter that I didn’t live in the area and was not able to relocate, but if they were open to a remote employee I would be interested. That way, if they weren’t interested, they’d be able to quickly discard my application and no one’s time would be wasted.

      (I did end up getting the job! Good luck.)

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m not in Germany, so I don’t know how useful this advice is, but I would put this in my cover letter if cover letters are a thing. Something along the lines of “I wasn’t even looking for a job, but I’m a satisfied customer of your company and I saw this job that I’m interested in, however I’m not able to move, but if remote work with occasional meetings in the Black Forest is an option, please consider my application.”

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I agree with the others, putting it in the cover letter is one option.

      Another option would be to wait until the interview scheduling email (i.e., “We’d like to interview you, here are some days/times…”). Then respond with a more professional version of: “Great, I’m so excited, here are some date and times. Also, I’d be open to to travel for training, but I’m looking to stay where I am. Is that compatible with this role?”

      Maybe explictly state that you would pull out if moving is required, just to eliminate any chance of confusion on their part. This is more just to save space on your cover letter to strengthen your application packet.

  7. FS*

    I would appreciate some advice. Written on phone so please excuse any typos.

    Back in July I applied for an internal position. I applied 7/21 Wed, had a zoom interview 7/26 Mon with the person who would be my boss (F) and coworker (H) if hired; both seemed to like me a lot and F said I’d hear back in a few days. I sent a follow-up thank you email the next day. The description for the job I applied for also disappeared that day from the internal job board.

    Didn’t hear anything. 8/5 Th I sent a follow-up email touching base with F; he called me the next day and explained that he wanted to hire me but the day after I interviewed, there was a hiring freeze in my area (but not for all positions since many job descriptions are still up…). F told me they still really wanted me and he was trying to make things happen since they really need more people in their department and he wanted me to know “silence is not rejection”. I thanked him for letting me know and told him I’d be here if they needed anything.

    I haven’t heard back since that call (8/6 Fr). It’s now been three weeks. Should I email F back with another “touching base” email? I want to make it clear that I’m still very interested in the position, but I don’t want to be an annoyance. I have been checking our internal job board every day; other jobs for my region have gone up, but nothing in that department.

    1. foolofgrace*

      He knows you’re interested. I think Alison usually says to let it go at this point, keep job searching, and if he comes back in touch with you, it’s a bonus. I would let it go.

    2. AnonPi*

      IMO (for what little that is worth) I wouldn’t. I think they know you are interested, and they won’t forget that. More than likely the freeze is still in place, and frankly those things can drag out forever. I would not expect anything to happen soon (if at all – sometimes freezes like this can change positions they hire entirely), and if you do want to look for another position do so.

    3. RedinSC*

      HIring always takes so much longer than one would expect, and with the complications of a freeze and too much work I can totally see that this guy is not being as communicative as you’d like. I think it would be OK to send one more email, I’d phrase it as checking in, you understand there were complications, but you’re still interested if they’re able to move forward.

    4. Carol*

      No, I would say at least a couple of months before you could realistically expect a budget issue to have been resolved, so no point contacting before that. At minimum. Could be half a year, more…

      They like you and that’s really good news, but this I think you have to ignore for a long time before you can reach out again.

    5. Twisted Lion*

      I think the hiring freeze has tied their hands. I wouldn’t message again. They know you are interested.

    6. Evil*

      It’s been three weeks so I would wait for a bit! I followed up every 4-5 weeks when I was in the running for an internal job. Though my experience may not be the norm, because the hiring manager actually loved that I did that.

      That being said… there was no hiring freeze (to my knowledge). We are just REALLY, glacially slow with hiring. It took me around six months from first contact to my first day.

      I would wait for now because it seems as though F is trying really hard to hire you but especially with a hiring freeze, it may take a lot longer than anticipated.

    7. Kara*

      I think you need to take them at their word and not bug them. They’re not going to forget to hire you.

    8. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

      I think it is fine to reach back out for updated timelines, but assume it won’t happen. Apply for other jobs and move ahead. If you haven’t found another job when this one is available in 1 week or 6 months you can consider taking it. But you don’t have an offer in hand.

    9. Grits McGee*

      My experience is in government employment, but in my experience internal hiring is a game of starts and stops. Getting the approval to list a position takes forever, then there’s a flurry of activity once the position is posted and interviews happen, then there’s a long drag between interviewing and the actual offer stage. As other people have said, the hiring manager knows you’re interested and they know where to find you. If they plan to offer you job when they are able, they will; continually following up is only going work against you.

    10. Sparkles McFadden*

      This happens a lot. Whenever someone leaves management re-evaluates everything to see if they “really need” that now-open position. Sometimes, another department will poach an open spot.

      They know you are interested and will get back to you when they can. When I was in this situation, it took almost two months.

    11. LadyByTheLake*

      It can take forever (months/years) to resolve hiring freezes. If you were to reach out again so soon, I think that would be annoying. They know you are interested and they are trying to bring you on board. If in six months you are still interested you might check in, but even that might be a bit much.

    12. learnedthehardway*

      Why not check in with HR to ask whether the hiring freeze has been lifted? They’ll know (or should). If it has been, then you can connect with the manager and let them know, while mentioning that you continue to be interested.

      If the freeze is still on, you will know to hold off.

    13. I edit everything*

      When you’re talking about a hiring freeze, three weeks is nothing. The blink of an eye. There’s no point touching base so quickly.

    14. FS*

      Thread Poster – thank you all for replying. I see the consensus is “don’t contact”, so I will follow that advice. Our organization moves fast on some hires, but this position is different than my current one and may move at a different speed (my direct boss would be in a different state, for one). I really appreciate the advice – so many people chiming in is very reassuring!

      1. I exist*

        #1 in today’s Friday good news – someone planned with potential employer about how often to check in during a hiring standstill. Maybe wait a few more weeks, then reach out saying you understand there’s a hiring freeze, but you’re still interested and ask if it would be okay to check in with them again in a couple months if you don’t hear anything…. or something like that.

        1. FS*

          Thank you for pointing that out to me, I didn’t see it actually! I may do that after another few weeks or so.

    15. Putting the Fun in Dysfunctional*

      These are all great suggestions, anticipate the stock lines that you would like to use, and practice them in the mirror. Practice making yourself big in front of a mirror and saying it over and over in a strong voice.
      1) I would take a minute to clarify the situation;
      2) Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I sent an email on this date to everyone here, but it appears now some of you may not have received it, I will resend (resend the original that shows it was sent to everyone).
      3) I would like to clear up the confusion, X and Y was completed on this date.
      Some things that I have found helpful is if I know something is off but I can’t articulate or put me finger on it, I put a placeholder down and let everyone in the discussion / meeting know that I have an email chain from X that states Y, I will forward it to everyone after the meeting.
      Also, make it a matter of practice for all your meetings to send out a summary of the meeting discussion, and include at that moment the clarifications with previous email attachments. For example, J, K, L and I met today to discuss A, B and C. It was raised that Z still needed to be completed. I was able to find the email on this date to show that Z was completed. Just the facts, no emotion statements. Do it for every meeting, and send it to everyone present. Passive voice if you are comfortable with it that way people may be more receptive to it.
      Here’s the thing though, you feel that you can’t speak up when they through you under the bus, is because they are intentionally behaving in a way to make you feel this way. They don’t want you to speak up, they don’t want you to set the record straight. Don’t let them dictate the agenda. They don’t have your best interests at heart. Only you do. Take a stand for yourself like you would if someone was doing this to someone you loved and cared about. Take ownership of your part, find your voice. You can do it. We are all here routing for you!!!

      1. Putting the Fun in Dysfunctional*

        This was in response to Merrism’s post about standing up for themselves! Will Retype there, feel free to remove on this thread.

  8. Merrism*

    Hi everyone. How do you handle being thrown under the bus by coworkers? I tend to freeze and not say anything in the heat of the moment then blame myself! Not working with toxic people might help but not all of us are that lucky… How do you stand up for yourself and set the records right? Addressing it there and then is probably best option as sometimes it’s too late afterwards and damage is done but I can’t for the life of me do that. Is this something I can improve?

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      First step is to learn to expect it and get some scripts ready and then you won’t tend to freeze as much.

      Have something ready to say like “Hmm, my records don’t match Lucinda’s here. I have XYZ from the last email I saw.” Basically calmly shut it down and offer your evidence.

      2. Carol*

        This–also, you can address things with your manager 1:1 if it’s a big enough problem and the moment has passed–“wanted to correct a misunderstanding that came up in that meeting, I was caught off guard in the moment but here’s what actually happened from my perspective…”

      3. GNG*

        I second this – remember the Thrower is counting on you to freeze, but many times they know they don’t have a leg to stand on, and would back down at the slightest push back. So maybe literally practice some scripts in front of the mirror:
        – That’s not my understanding of the events that happened…
        – I need to jump in here and share what was actually discussed previously…
        – Miranda, how strange to hear you say that, because that’s not what Janet said in the meeting…
        – Miranda, in case you’re not aware, but I actually completed the report and sent it to Amanda already…

        Then watching the Throwers backtrack is the most satisfying thing.

      4. Bagpuss*

        Yes – this also lets you come up worth phrasing that doesn’t outright say “Lucinda’s is lying through her teeth” and allows you to say something such as NeedMoreSunshine suggests, of “Actually, it looks as though there was a miscommunication -I did x and was then waiting for Lucinda to do y to allow the work to be completed” or “I did x, I understood that Y was then Lucinda’s responsibility -how do you want this to be handled moving forwards? ”
        You can also do this a little later in the same meeting / shortly afterwards, start with something like “I just need to go back to the conversation we had about X – you mentioned that I’d done / not done Y, but actually having reviewed it I recall that we agreed in last last week’s meeting that you would do Y, [or as appropriate] ”
        And if you have a coworker who does this a lot, document. Confirm agreed actions in writing as soon as you can after the conversation they were agreed in, for instance
        Also, if it is coworkers, speak to your manager afterwards to clarify and provide any additional information.

    3. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      Always document everything as a CYA, and then when it happens in the moment be ready to pull said documentation out to challenge what ever they are saying. It helps to anticipate how they are going to try to screw you over based on what their MO is. Is it a lot of work? Yes. Is it rewarding to watch them fail at their efforts? YES.

      1. EmKay*

        Heck yeah it is!

        “hey you never got back to me about that report and now I’m late blablabla”

        I just forward my original email with report attached. Sometimes if I feel really sassy, I’ll add a smiley emoji.

    4. LKW*

      Document the work you’re doing. Document decisions and details about who was present, the nature of the decision, risks, etc. When I send meeting minutes I have a section for Actions, Decisions, general notes.

      Have a few phrases, practice saying them out loud so the words are comfortable in your mouth. The suggestions here are great. Some other phrases I’ve used

      1. I’d like to pause here and address ….
      2. I’m concerned about that statement/accusation, can we address that now or should we set up a separate discussion?
      3. I think there may be some confusion / miscommunication and I’d like to provide some clarification

    5. learnedthehardway*

      Great advice from people here for the “in the moment” situation. If you don’t manage to unfreeze in the meeting, though, email afterwards is a great way to push back and to document. And you can CC relevant people.

      As people suggested, keep detailed notes of your projects and assignments – with do lists of who is responsible for what. Send them out at the ends of meetings as a “public service”, which will make it clear to everyone (for example) that Bob is responsible for the llama shearing report, and that you’re responsible for the alpaca grooming report.

      That way, when Bob asks you where the llama shearing report is, you’ll be able to refer him back to the do-list from the previous meeting, AND everyone will know that Bob was responsible for that report, whether or not he asks you about it.

      And if there are unassigned tasks, you can list them as “unassigned”, which makes sure that everyone needs to agree on who will do them, and that at least you can’t be blamed if they aren’t completed.

    6. Anonymous Koala*

      When I work with coworkers who might throw me under the bus, I usually try to ‘bulletproof’ my work by going through it with a very critical eye and looking at all the places I could be called out for not doing something a certain way/ not finishing something, etc. and then I practice my responses to those call-outs. Like “oh it’s this way because last time grand-boss asked us to do this” or “Boss asked me to prioritize project X, which takes A hours, so I only got to B on project Y”. It helps me feel more confident about responding in the moment is I have a practiced script.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This works because usually there are patterns on what they whine about. If you have seen them whine about X in the past then go ahead and assume they will again.

        A lot of this can feel like over-explaining and it is.

        Additionally, understand that you do not have to defend yourself every single time. If you say “it’s raining” and people can look out the window and see the rain, you can let that view out the window speak for itself when Bob says, “No, it’s not raining.” There are times that you can just let obvious things hang there in mid-air.

        It is a train your brain type of thing. I worked with a finger-pointing group and I was not used to having a knife in my back on a regular basis. I would use my drive time home to figure out how better to handle the current day’s situations. I’d review the scene and I would create simple things that I could use to defend myself.

        I kept my actions transparent.
        I communicated with others.
        I kept records. In my work dates were important- so I would jot down start and end dates for projects. I knew that would be something that would be a point of “discussion”. Quantities were also a bfd. So I kept record of quantities.

        I got good at all this ducks-in-a-row stuff. One time a cohort tried to pile a bunch of work in my area while I was on break. The rest of my cohorts laughed their butts off saying that I was the last person in the group that anyone would do that to because I knew where things were at. Cohort had to take back his work.

        Okay now the serious part. Do not stay in this environment very long. It’s toxic. It probably won’t become UNtoxic any time soon. Do your best but realize moving on is probably a stronger plan.

    7. Not such a dumb blonde*

      Last week I trialled “dumb curiosity” when caught off guard and it worked superbly. As I dialled into the meeting (with leadership team) I heard a colleague at another location blame us for a delay:

      “This work is delayed because of location Xs lack of resource”

      So I just replied:
      “Sorry, I’m confused, I’ve only just dialled in and maybe I’ve missed something. Is there a resourcing issue on another part of the project? Activities with my team are ready to go the moment the materials arrive so maybe we should clarify which team?”

      I knew fine well there was only my team from location X on the project……the colleague stuttered something incomprehensible so I just went “think we have some crossed wires here, easy done on such a big project. Probably one we can just take off the tracker”

      There are no words sufficient to describe how satisfying it was-both to call someone out on a blatant lie, but to do it in a way that you look really proactive and under control to leadership. Just wonderful and definitely one I’ll keep in my repertoire!

    8. GNG*

      Adding one more comment: Having the ability to Unfreeze and setting the record straight is a key skill, even when your coworkers aren’t maliciously throwing you under the bus. Sometimes, someone might bring up something but it was an honest misunderstanding, and you’re caught off guard. If you don’t unfreeze and clarify, the misunderstanding would snowball. The same great techniques and skills shared by many commenters here would still be applicable.

    9. Putting the Fun in Dysfunctional*

      These are all great suggestions, anticipate the stock lines that you would like to use, and practice them in the mirror. Practice making yourself big in front of a mirror and saying it over and over in a strong voice.
      1) I would take a minute to clarify the situation;
      2) Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I sent an email on this date to everyone here, but it appears now some of you may not have received it, I will resend (resend the original that shows it was sent to everyone).
      3) I would like to clear up the confusion, X and Y was completed on this date.
      Some things that I have found helpful is if I know something is off but I can’t articulate or put me finger on it, I put a placeholder down and let everyone in the discussion / meeting know that I have an email chain from X that states Y, I will forward it to everyone after the meeting.
      Also, make it a matter of practice for all your meetings to send out a summary of the meeting discussion, and include at that moment the clarifications with previous email attachments. For example, J, K, L and I met today to discuss A, B and C. It was raised that Z still needed to be completed. I was able to find the email on this date to show that Z was completed. Just the facts, no emotion statements. Do it for every meeting, and send it to everyone present. Passive voice if you are comfortable with it that way people may be more receptive to it.
      Here’s the thing though, you feel that you can’t speak up when they through you under the bus, is because they are intentionally behaving in a way to make you feel this way. They don’t want you to speak up, they don’t want you to set the record straight. Don’t let them dictate the agenda. They don’t have your best interests at heart. Only you do. Take a stand for yourself like you would if someone was doing this to someone you loved and cared about. Take ownership of your part, find your voice. You can do it. We are all here routing for you!!!

    10. GI*

      Prepping a stock phrase in advance is the most effective thing — I’ll add that you don’t have to be able to anticipate exactly what they’re going to try to throw you under the bus for. You could just anticipate that it’s going to be for SOMETHING, and then try to prep a stock phrase that address them throwing you under the bus, regardless of the topic. Like, “I feel like I’m being accused of something,” or “Is this the part where we all start trying to blame someone?” or whatever fits your normal style.

  9. ThatGirl*

    Here’s my weird work thing for the week. I got laid off in November 2020. Part of the severance I was offered was 3 months of cobra paid by the company. I got the paperwork but never filled it out because I started a new job 6 weeks later.

    Then a bunch of COVID relief bills happened and turns out even though I never sent anything in, my old health insurance policy is still active, on top of my new one. I had a physical last month and they billed it to the old plan. Sure, let’s let my old company pay for that….

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      As a tip, you can have the provider bill both insurances and the insurance carriers will work out with is primary/secondary.

      Also the COBRA subsidy ends at the end of September so be sure to get removed from your previous company’s plan before then.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I never asked to be put on it, I’ve done literally nothing, if I get any bills for cobra premiums I won’t pay them.

        I am going to follow up with my dr office medical group, though, because I don’t want them to keep billing the “wrong” insurance.

        1. Need More Sunshine*

          True, the worst that will happen is that you get terminated from the previous coverage for non-payment, but it doesn’t sound like they’re billing you at all. So it would be a kindness to give your former employer a heads up that you’re still on there (well, if you want to be kind to them LOL).

        2. Non-Evil HR Lady*

          There was a COBRA Subsidy law that passed as part of the COVID-19 relief bills. If you were involuntarily let go from your position, your former employer was required to keep you on the medical plan for 18 months or until September 30, 2021, whichever comes first. Your former employer was also required to pay 100% of the premiums for you during that period of time. Just make sure you switch the billing to your new insurance effective 10/1/2021.

          1. ThatGirl*

            Yeah, I know why, it’s just weird to me that I didn’t have to formally enroll or anything. Seems like they would want to weed out people who didn’t need it.

            1. Non-Evil HR Lady*

              I agree you should have gotten notice at termination or within 60 days of termination. The way I read the law employees have to elect to keep coverage just like they do in a regular COBRA situation. Maybe they just decided to keep it going for all eligible former employees?

              1. Need More Sunshine*

                Yep, sounds like ThatGirl got the initial notice, but never re-enrolled, but her former employer never actually terminated her either. I work in employee benefits and a TON of our clients forget to terminate people from their insurance, especially the smaller groups (<100 employees), so I wouldn't be surprised if ThatGirl's former employer sent her a COBRA notice but then forgot to remove her from the enrollment altogether!

                1. ThatGirl*

                  Yep, as far as I can tell that’s what happened. 80 people got laid off, but there are several hundred more at the company. I got a bunch of notices, but never did anything with them.

        3. Eden*

          Feels less stressful to avoid getting a bill in the first place than disputing one after it happens.

          1. ThatGirl*

            There’s nothing to dispute, if I get a bill for cobra coverage I won’t pay it and they’ll drop me, which is exactly as it should be. Because I never formally enrolled in it and I don’t need it.

    2. tothefishes*

      FYI you can be penalized for “taking” the COBRA subsidy if you were offered insurance elsewhere. So you may want to call the COBRA provider and make sure they don’t have it down that you took the COBRA.

      2. Health Insurance info.*

        When you have a plan you usually only have to sign or return forms to change the plan or stop it. Also any active employed plan is the primary plan, depending on what state they have years they can come back and get that money and flag for fraud.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I would correct it with the doctor’s office right now — if you are on a different insurance plan have them bill the correct one. Otherwise it could potentially pop back up as the prefill at the future medical appointment.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I confirmed they had the new info when I checked in for my appointment, because I didn’t even know my old policy was active – wasn’t until I got the EOB and logged in that I saw both on the Blue Cross site. But yeah, I’m following up.

  10. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I finally cleaned out my home office from when various foster and friend’s cats have stayed!

    But I still have to deal with my gigantic, black Stage 5 Clinger cat. I am not joking, most of the time he’s awake, he stays within two feet of me! So I put a cat cushion on one side of my laptop on my desk. This helps slightly with the intrusion, but he still likes to get in the way! He’s big enough that I can’t type or see the screen when he does this.

    Basically, he is not happy unless he’s being petted right that second! Has anyone dealt with clingy pets, esp. due to work from home? What do you do? I can’t call HR on this guy.

    He’s also a huge door-darter and all-around a handful.

    1. Web Crawler*

      When my needy cat gets too needy, I put a basket next to my laptop. If he’s in the basket, he gets pets when it’s convienent for me. If he steps out of the basket, I pretend that he doesn’t exist, including getting up and walking away if he gets between me and the laptop. It took a few weeks, but now he’s less intrusive.

        1. Web Crawler*

          It’s actually not too hard, it just takes some creativity and commitment. The process in this instance looked like:

          1. Put the basket down. Lure the cat into the basket and give him lots of attention, decreasing over time as you get bored/distracted

          2. At some point, the cat will leave the basket. When he does, quickly withdraw your hand and look at anything that’s not him. After a while, lure him back into the basket and start the process over

          3. After some number of iterations, when he leaves the basket, you’ll have to judge whether he doesn’t understand the pattern (and you should lure him back) or understands but doesn’t care (and you should start completely disengaging until he goes back on his own)

          4. My cat also decided to test the exact boundaries, forcing me to figure out where the line was. Like, halfway in the basket (nope), or one paw on the table beside the basket (nope), or one paw out of the basket but not on the table (allowed)

      2. I'm just here for the cats!*

        Keep in mind not everyone is able to walk away if the cat gets in the way. For example my mom works from home and our cat is horible at getting on her desk and laying on her computer mouse or on my mom’s hand. However, she works customer/ technical support and has to be on her computer to take calls. She can move the cat elsewhere but she can’t just leave her computer until the cat decides to go

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I let my puppy get used to sleeping in my lap, which was super cute when she was 8 pounds and got a little awkward when she hit 50. She curls up small, so she still fits in my lap if I’m sitting cross-legged, but it’s awkward in a regular style desk chair. Then one day she almost upended my desk launching off my lap after a squirrel, because her butt was wedged under the edge of the desk. I replaced my desk chair with a butt-and-a-half armchair that weekend, and now most of the year instead of sleeping in my lap, she takes the back half of the chair and I sit in the front half. (Though she does still curl up in my lap on cold winter mornings.) So, uh, my solution was to accommodate. That may or may not be a good plan.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        omg. This is too funny. (Except for upending the desk where one or both of you could have gotten hurt.) I love the shared chair.

    3. Evil*

      I also have a large black needy cat. :) He follows me around all day and is usually within eyeshot of me. Not quite 2 feet, but he definitely hangs around.

      How many comfy spots do you have for him around the house/apartment? I have a papasan-style chair that is supposed to be for humans, but my cat has claimed that and often sleeps in it while I’m at work (it’s next to my desk and couch so no matter where I am, he can be nearby). He also has a cat tree at a nearby window so he can hang out and look outside or nap while still knowing I’m close by.

      My recent problem is that sometimes I like to sit on the couch for breaks or just to work in a comfy spot, and he will often show up and want lap time… and once he sits down, it can be 2-3 hours until he leaves again. I’ve learned that I can perch the laptop on his body and he won’t get too annoyed, though I can’t do it for too long.

      1. LunaLena*

        Perhaps a lap desk would help? I got a cheap plastic one off Amazon that has legs that unfold, so it holds the laptop above my lap. That might leave space for the kitty to stay on your lap, depending on the size of the kitty. Also if I was lying full-length on the sofa, I could slide the desk further down so I could still reach it with extended arms but my recently-departed kitty had room to nestle on/with me (she still hated the laptop and sought ways to undermine it, though).

    4. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

      I have a firm in my lap not on the desk policy. Full disclosure: 2 out of 3 cats do not recognize my authority to enforce this policy and I spend time repeatedly putting the back in the lap or down on the floor. They finally get the message and wander off to find new ways to get my attention. One has turned the bathtub into her personal playground and is making enough noise for a herd of elephants instead of 1 small kitten as I type this.

      1. mreasy*

        Oh yeah I have a lot of policies like don’t get on my keyboard and start rubbing your face on my face during a meeting but my two furry direct reports simply don’t follow them.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        My rule started as “no cats in my office.”

        Then it became “cats are only allowed in my office in tins.” (Our cats who have gone before were cremated and are in fancy tins up on top of my bookshelf, where they can look snootily down at me while I work. During this iteration of the rule, I regularly reminded my husband’s cat that I can totally stuff her into one of those Christmastime popcorn tins if she didn’t get her fuzzy butt out.)

        However, the cat thinks she’s a dog, and that the cat rules don’t apply to her at all. Currently, we seem to have found a mutually tolerable line of “She can come in my office as long as she doesn’t cause trouble, knock things over, or claw my chair,” and my (actual canine) dog has declared herself the enforcer of the rule, and will totally chase the cat back to the doorway if she feels that the cat is not behaving appropriately.

    5. Crylo Ren*

      I put my cats in another room and the dog in her exercise pen when I’m working so they can’t crawl all over me, step on my computer, or beg for pets. I ignore them completely and brush them off when I’m working so I’m not encouraging their behavior. They were pretty needy when I first started WFH, but after a couple of months they’ve learned they won’t get any attention from me while I’m working.

      They won’t die if you have to sequester them away from you for a bit. They’ll be unhappy, sure, but you can always make it up to them when you’re not busy.

    6. CargoPants*

      I have a clingy dog and I put a nice comfy dog bed next to my desk, and that makes him happy. He’s too big and gangley for sitting in my lap but he seems to like the dog bed, especially since it’s meant for doggos like mastiffs (he is about 30 lbs), so it’s quite comfortable and loungey.

      I recently adopted a clingy kitten and for the most part, just sleeping in my lap is good enough. But sometimes I have to put him in the upstairs room and just live with the fact that my door is going to be scratched up.

    7. PeachTrees*

      My cuddly behemoth is also a black cat that is the size, a similar shape, and has the countenance of a human toddler. Accordingly, the only things that even mitigate The Clingening are strategic cuddles, furniture/clothing, and bribery:

      I have to pick my battles, and I’m lucky to have a flexible enough schedule that if I take time to play with him and give him extra attention when he needs it, I can catch up when he naps

      He gets his own chair set up next to mine. Sometimes it’s sufficient for him to sit next to me with a paw or two on my leg, but even if not, it’s less disruptive for him to walk into my lap than it is for him to jump up on his own or beg to be picked up from the floor.

      I don’t wear anything that would risk being made scandalous/otherwise awkward in some way, or that he might get hung up in with him hanging off of me. It’s not his fault he has razor blades growing out of his toes, but getting him caught up in a loose knit world both startle and trap him against my body, so I might as well try to work inside a blender.

      If I need to teach or have a meeting that cannot be interrupted, I put out catnip on his brushy arch immediately before and hope he stays occupied long enough to get through it.

      But mostly people have been very patient if not outright delighted when he appears

    8. Nicki Name*

      Cat bed with high sides. I started off with a folded-up towel to either side of my work laptop, but my micromanager cat liked sprawling onto my keyboard. Now he curls up and conforms to the edges and I don’t have to worry about getting my speakers randomly muted in the middle of a meeting.

    9. Coenobita*

      I have no advice, having just last weekend rearranged my entire home workspace around the needs of my clingy long-term foster dog. Luckily he is content to lie on his bed near my desk since he’s a 60-lb senior boxer mix! He does like to sit on my feet when it thunderstorms, so I need to leave enough space for him under the desk…

    10. Macaroni Penguin*

      I scatter treats in the floor and hope for the best. It might give me 5 minutes of The Office Cat not demanding my attention. This strategy can’t be used constantly or else The Office Cat would become Mega Chonky Oh Lawd He Coming

    11. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Lately one of my cats has started climbing on my shoulder if I don’t pay enough attention to her. She does it in such a way that I am forced to hold her with one arm, leaving me only one hand to type with. She’s lucky she’s the world’s most adorable calico (she has 4 white mitts and a bib!) or I would shut her out of the office.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Type this one into Google: “acrylic keyboard cover cat”
      You’ll have to figure out how to lift your monitor up to a place that you can see it comma but it could free up your hands to type. I wish I remember where I ran across this first… I have too many allergies to have cats anymore.

      2. Will's Mom*

        OMG, this is so funny. I just Googled this. It is basically a clear acrylic piece (sort of like a monitor stand) except it is clear. There is enough room for your hands to type whilst the cat is sitting on top of the cover. I am low key sorry that I am retired and no longer have a need for this. Thank you for making me giggle.

    13. TPS Reporter*

      Same! I think part of it could be that they like warm things, so they gravitate to the laptop. What if you tried setting up an electric blanket or warm bed near you, like in a short cat tower that is next to you and keeps their head at your hand height?

  11. Amber Rose*

    Guys I’m so angry. I can’t calm down.

    We received notice yesterday that one of our service guys who goes out onto customer sites has Covid. Today I heard through the grapevine that he’s an anti-vaxxer.

    I thought… I thought management was taking this seriously! How could they let him out there like that?! Just send him all over without being vaccinated and then let him wander around here without a mask! They were basically asking for this. We’ve had to cancel a staff appreciation lunch next week and I gotta go get rapid tested because I work with the service guys on a regular basis.

    I’m livid. Just furious. What the actual EFF.

    I can’t cope with this shit anymore you guys. I’m just constantly on the edge of a nervous breakdown.

    1. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Right here with you, Amber Rose. We went from taking it very seriously/above and beyond to “completely back to normal and we’re going to pretend the pandemic is over”.

      I’m not in a good spot with any of it right now.

    2. Sparkles McFadden*

      I am angry on your behalf!

      This is so common now. People seem far more worried about upsetting some covid-denier than they are about people getting gravely ill or dying. I think there’s also a lot of nonsensical magical thinking around. “If I haven’t gotten sick by now, I must be immune.” or “Only old or unhealthy people get this so I’m safe because I take zinc and vitamin C.”

      It’s infuriating…and terrifying.

      1. Windchime*

        I have relatives who feel this way. One of them has now been in the ICU on a ventilator for 10 days.

        I’m tired of this whole thing. We all are. But we cannot just pretend that it’s over; that’s childish thinking and we need to band together to try to beat it. But until we are all on the same page, this will continue to happen. It’s infuriating and it’s exhausting.

      2. This is not my first time.*

        Oh the zinc and vitamin C thing really gets me. A friend posted on Facebook that her daughter is very ill with Covid (and their whole family has it) and someone responded “PM me if you’d like help with immune support ✨ ❤️” and I just can’t. Don’t try to profit off this woman by selling her essential oils!!!!

        Also, sorry to the OP that you’re going through this.

    3. OtterB*

      I understand the anger, but keep in mind that the grapevine is not always reliable. I have two people I know in person (not online) who are fully vaxed and have been diagnosed with covid recently. One is a friend who had some mild, not-typical symptoms (headache and sore throat) and would not have bothered to get tested if she hadn’t known a coworker had tested positive (and the coworker was also fully vaxed and wouldn’t have felt the need to be tested but had just returned from an international trip.) The other is the college-age son of a friend who wasn’t doing anything riskier than hanging out in an apartment with other fully vaxed friends. So it might not be as clear-cut of idiocy as it sounds.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Apparently he’s been pretty vocal about it. The coworker who told me was surprised I didn’t know.

    4. Mimmy*

      I’m angry on your behalf too!! I’m a bit nervous because beginning next month, we will be gradually returning to in-person work. They have strict mask and social distance policies and will be requiring all employees to be vaccinated or be subject to regular testing (state employees). I wonder how long it’ll be before everything gets lax :/

      1. usually anon*

        Same here. Heading back to in-person classes with a vax/mask mandate which will do nothing to stop students (and many staff/faculty no doubt) from swapping & sharing covid with the 10,000+ people on campus.
        Fall is already the most stressful time of year for my workload, and adding Delta to the mix is too much.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I WISH I could find a workplace with strict policies. A recent interviewer was very cavalier about it and said they “haven’t had a problem, masks aren’t required,” etc. Translation: we’re all under 35 (they look like they are) and won’t get it or don’t have to worry about it (yes, Virginia, you do). I withdrew my application.

        I’m scared the only jobs available to me, especially here, are all going to be like that. I’m fully vaccinated, but I also can’t afford to be off work for a week or two until I’m not contagious.

        1. Girasol*

          I wish we could find *doctors* with strict policies. We have to call all over to find offices where masks are required.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      I hear you. It drives me batty too. We’ve had two small outbreaks in my office this month (the first two in a year) and we still continue to get these wishy-washy “you really should consider getting vaccinated” emails from the powers that be.
      After the last outbreak, I spoke with our HR person (who I know is immuno-compromised) and mentioned that I am tempted to bring in a vaccine dart gun and go all Mutual of Omaha’s Wild America. She smiled and said, “You know, as HR, I can’t condone you doing such a thing… but if you bring it in, I’ll do it for you.”
      At the end of the day, I remind myself that I am doing what I can to protect myself and my family. Other people are being stupid, yes. And some people think Nascar and Coors are a high point for the weekend. People are going to make bad decisions and making good decisions for ourselves seems hollow, but it’s all we have. Keep your chin up (and your mask on.)

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Don’t forget to fit them with a radio collar so you can follow up in 28 days.

          (also, love your user name. Currently working my way through the series.)

        2. Chris too*

          I’ve been threatening the same thing with the tranquilizer darts. We’ve got to tranquilize them first, I think, so they don’t struggle and pull out the needle or anything.

      2. Anon for This*

        I hear you on the dart gun!
        Everyone’s comments on my husband whi ing about the vaccine mandate at his state) employer helped save my sanity this past week. Thankfully he has decided to get the vaccine to save his job – as soon as his exemption request is inevitably declined.

    6. Macaroni Penguin*

      Gah! It’s understandable that you’re angry. It seems that some places have just decided that COVID isn’t a thing anymore.

      Like where I live. There are essentially no health measures in place. Only COVID positive individuals need to quarantine. It seems that government has walked away from managing the pandemic. It’s all up to citizens, school districts, municipalities, and employers to decide their own health policies. What your service tech did and that overall situation would be totally legal here. (Well, dude should have stayed home but still)

      So suggestions, just empathy.

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s legal here too, I’m just mad because we’ve had a lot of lip service from management about how seriously they’re taking this, but apparently that only applies to some of us, not all of us.

        The favoritism is gross. And dangerous.

    8. Bagpuss*

      Can you raise it with HR ? To say explicitly that you are really concerned that he has been walking around without a mask and potentially going out to clients unmasked, in breach of your company policy, and that you are raising it now as it was out until you were told about his having Covid that you learned he was not vaccinated.

      Ask them what steps they are taking to ensure that people adhere to their policies (I assume you have a masked unless vaccinated, or masked around others, policy)

      I would explicitly state that you feel the company has failed to adequately protect you and other employees and clients by not enforcing their own policies.

      It may not change anything but equally if they are expressly called out they may tighten up enforcement

      1. Amber Rose*

        We don’t have HR.
        We don’t have any policies around masks.

        I had assumed (and that’s what I get for assumptions) that the reason management lifted the masking rule was because everyone was already vaccinated or planning to be, since we had an anonymous survey.

    9. Turtles all the way down*

      Yes. I get flashes of anger, too. I just dropped off something to a neighbor & she suggested I stay back a bit because her whole family has Covid. But “they’re ok since it’s been 10 days and they’re being really careful.” Ummmmm no they’re not. All are old enough to be vaccinated but didn’t/won’t. She’s a school teacher! Of little kids too young yet to be vaccinated. I was deflated & angry the whole day. But I’m trying really hard to take care of mental health because there are SO many of these anti-vaxxers & we can’t take on them all. Or feel angry all the time. I’m having a cup of tea now. Hugs to you.

    10. Liane*

      Only sympathy, from someone who lives in a state full of private citizens and politicians who have never taken the pandemic seriously. IF they even believe it. (Seriously, we’ve NEVER had a lockdown, few/no open ICUbeds, & vaccination rate is 40-ish %)

      Here is **just one** horror story from Daughter’s job at National Grocer. (Note Grocer’s COVID policies are: Masking recommended for staff/vendors/customers; Employees must report if exposed/COVID positive; Grocer pays employees while they are out with COVID or quarantining)

      Awful Coworker who doesn’t mask at work (& is unvaccinated, probably) lives with her vulnerable & unvaccinated Grandpa. Grandpa tests positive – & Coworker doesn’t say a word! Coworker soon – no effing surprise – tests positive. NOW Coworker tells work. At the **very end** of the shift! Daughter said she & many others were trying to get Management to discipline Coworker, which is allowed under Grocer’s policy, but didn’t know if they did anything, since Coworker quit right after being cleared to return medically.

    11. Meep*

      As a potential customer who occasionally has service people come to my house, I’m incensed, and I would inform the customers immediately if I were you.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      These people are infuriating to me and I don’t even know them.

      I think you said job hunting prospects were Not Good?

    13. cncx*

      I lost my ever loving mind on friday when i found out a coworker who has been coming in and sitting six feet from me for two weeks is unvaxxed and unmasked. But didn’t want to tell people they were unvaxed because of hurt feefees

      Luckily they haven’t tested positive but i still feel like i was tricked into something i did not sign up for, i only found out they were antivax by hearsay. delta is a thing !!! I’m in a risk group!!! one of my friends has breast cancer!!! none of this is ok

      i angry cried most of friday.

    14. Quinalla*

      I would be so angry too! 2 of my 3 kids are in quarantine right now because of exposure to someone with positive COVID test at school. Luckily school is requiring masks for everyone and quarantining anyone exposed because of eating lunch, etc. but I know far too many who are just acting like everything is fine and taking zero precautions and damn that under 12 vaccine can’t come soon enough. You can still get COVID with a vaccine, but the risks of serious illness/death/etc. is so, so much lower.

      A school near us just reopened with zero masking requirements, I just can’t anymore, so glad we didn’t move to that school district!!!

  12. Exif*

    My company has asked for volunteers to join a “total compensation focus group” program. People will gather in a meeting room and discuss their pay, health benefits, insurance/retirement benefits, and general work/life balance. They want a big turnout and are trying to entice people with ten-dollar gift cards (wut).

    Anyone ever do anything like this? Did it seem like a genuine company effort to improve retention, or just theater? Or worse, a witch hunt to weed out the disgruntled?

    Other factors that might be relevant: The company has both office workers and union manufacturing workers. I am an office worker, the only person in the company doing my kind of job, and got hired after 5 years of stringing together waitressing and retail jobs (so my salary history isn’t useful or competitive).

    1. Need More Sunshine*

      I’d go in with an open mind, but be guarded – I’d just be very matter of fact and share your pay/benefits, but be neutral when discussing your view point on them. That way, you look like you’re participating and can gather comparative info from the company as a whole, but won’t get dinged for any type of (perceived) bad attitude.

    2. Cranky lady*

      Yes. It was a precursor to several major compensation and benefits changes that did not go well. Suggest you get your voice heard now or at least hear what they have in mind.

    3. cubone*

      Yes, it was not good in the long run but it was a very toxic company so perhaps not surprising. I am normally someone who loves doing stuff like focus groups and quite willing to speak up. I didn’t find it was used to weed out anyone, but it was definitely theatre and the process became this dangling carrot like “aren’t we amazing for wanting to review our compensation plan and make it more fair?” Uh…. Yeah that’s kind of like, a pretty basic expectation. The end result was also a new compensation plan that was just as secret and inequitable.

      My advice would just be: watch for red flags, don’t get your hopes up, participate and give feedback if you’d like, but a draw a line for yourself when offering that feedback feels more like emotional labour they aren’t appreciating or acknowledging.

    4. Eden*

      This is weird. They should know what their benefit packages are already. If they’re gonna be asking more for opinions, I’d only do it if it were moderated by a 3rd party and no managers or HR people were present.

      1. cubone*

        I could be wrong but I interpreted it as they want to know what employees think of their benefits/compensation, especially if they think it is “competitive”, fair based on market value, etc. I mentioned above a former company did this and they definitely knew our compensation/benefits, but asked more stuff like if we thought Company’s salaries would attract good candidates, did we feel benefits offered were on par with previous jobs/other offers we’d received, etc. I would be really surprised if this actually was just to ask “how much do each of you make?”

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d go just to get the gift card. But that’s me.

      Hey you can go and if the conversation does not feel right or your gut says, “be quiet”, then you can just not answer anything.

      Do line up something you feel is important to say so that if you do feel safe in speaking you have something prepared.

  13. Canna-Anonymous*

    TOPIC: Employment drug screen for medical cannabis card holders.

    Does anyone have experience taking a pre-employment drug screen while being a medical cannabis user? Any info appreciated.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I work for state government. It is a completely drug-free environment. They sent out a memo saying that although cannabis is legal in many places, that doesn’t cut any ice with the employer, you are still expected to be drug-free, regardless of whether you have a medical card. Sorry. Maybe private employers are different. But I kind of doubt it.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Yep, same for federal government. I have an absolute nothing-burger bureaucrat job, and I regularly get drug tested for everything they can legally test for.

      2. NotRealAnonForThis*

        Worked for a private employer, can confirm that they went with the federal definition of illegal.

        1. LKW*

          Same-ish. While my employer does not test, many of my clients require it. They follow the federal definition.

    2. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      This will 100% depend on the employer and the funding source. Any employer who accepts Medicaid or Medicare has to have a zero drug policy due to it not be legal federally. As foolofgrace stated government agencies also follow this same policy.

      1. Canna-Anonymous*

        An employer who accepts M/M would have to be a health care provider, no?

        This is a privately held multi-state business.

    3. Dino*

      I’m not a MMJ user but I do take ADHD medication that shows up as positive for methamphetamines. I’ve always mentioned it to the company contact and they’ve always said to bring my RX bottle or scrip if I have the paper copy to the drug test center. I don’t know whether that would work for MMJ though.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        Dino, thank you for saying this. I didn’t know this, and its good information to keep in the back of my head (one of my children takes a likely similar medication). I appreciate your input :)

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Medical marijuana is still illegal on the federal level, and properly prescribed ADHD meds are not. I’m sure some employers would let prescribed marijuana slide, but many are going to consider it illegal, whether or not you have a prescription.

    4. cabbagepants*

      Laws about this a very fact specific and state specific, not to mention constantly evolving. You might consider contacting an employment lawyer in your state. If your company accepts federal funding for anything it can make it harder (maybe impossible) to pass the test as a MJ user.

      1. Dino*

        I work in an industry that receives federal funding and is highly regulated by a three-letter federal agency. When I graduated and was looking for work, the first company I interviewed with said “Because we receive federal funding, we drug test and follow federal guidelines around illegality.” I didn’t apply.

        When later I applied at another company, with the same funding and federal regulations, absolutely zero mention of drug testing at all. I wasn’t tested for ANYTHING. Turns out Company A just wants to keep their health insurance costs down and drug testing employees means they qualify for different plans.

        YMMV. If you have a contact in the company you want to work for, I’d suggest reaching out discreetly to ask about the testing process.

    5. Out & About*

      I’m in a recreationally legal state and most employers who drug test – including my most recent past employer – still test for cannabis. They consider it illegal on the federal level and do not classify it as an exempt medication for medicinal users as they would for other flagging medications.

      Companies who don’t care about cannabis seem to avoid drug testing completely or only test if an employee is visibly under the influence during work hours.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Legality aside, another thing to keep in mind is whether or not using cannabis will affect your ability to do the job. If the company is doing a drug test as part of employment screening, it could be the safety of the job requires people to be completely free of anything that would impair their judgement or fine motor skills. Just because you have a medical reason for ANY medication, doesn’t mean they have to accommodate it if it would impact your ability to do the job. A person doesn’t have to be allowed to drive a school bus under the influence of opioid pain killers, even if they have a prescription.

      1. not a doctor*

        Let’s give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re managing their condition and treatment well enough to apply for the job they’re going for.

        1. cabbagepants*

          It’s not just OP managing their own condition and treatment. The perception of how the medication could interact with job duties also matters. Again, the example of opioids and driving a school bus. You can feel fine, you can *be* fine, but no tolerance policies around certain job+medication combinations still exist.

      2. pieces_of_flair*

        Cannabis is detectable by a drug test several weeks after it was last used. Testing positive has nothing to do with being under the influence at work.

        1. TPS Reporter*

          exactly. My company (healthcare, receives lots of government funding) has a drug free work place not work force policy. As in, you can do whatever you want on your own time but you can’t be under the influence on the job. My understanding is that many tests are sophisticated enough to know if you are actively high versus you have it in your system from a non-work time.

          The pre-employment drug screening is only for illegal substances as well (weed is not illegal in our state).

      4. Anon for this comment*

        I think sometimes it also depends upon your direct manager and how much individual leniency they’ll allow for a specific employee. I’m in a state which has no legality of recreational use of marijuana but which recently made medical marijuana usage legal with a registered prescription card. I have a co-worker who has been vocal with management and co-workers that he has a medical marijuana prescription and does use it medicinally. The agency we work for is a part of state government and we are considered state employees; we are not routinely subjected to drug testing but it is understood the employer may require it if they have due cause. The employee with the MM prescription usage does regularly operate heavy machinery and chainsaws.

    7. RoseMai*

      This is going to vary so much by employer. My job still tests for cannabis, but if someone tests positive they shrug their shoulders and hire them anyway!

    8. Nanc*

      Oh this is a tough one. There are so many things to factor in. It’s completely legal in my state but my brother happens to work a job where their business insurance does not allow any employee to be “under the influence” in any way shape or form, even if they’re a medical user. It sucks but the business can’t survive without the industry-specific insurance so they have to drug test regularly and if an employee tests positive they’re let go. They do make that clear in their job postings and when someone is hired.

    9. Student*

      Seconding the other people who’ve explained that the drug screening is almost always intended to screen out the drug you are using, regardless of any prescriptions you have for it. Your situation is what they are screening against in most cases.

      Go back and take a harder look at any application and drug screening materials they’ve sent you, and their web site. The employer will generally explain what you are being screened for, why, and what the exceptions are. I’ve taken a lot of drug screening tests, and every single one has explained what the purpose is and what the exceptions are.

    10. Fabulous*

      No experience first hand, but my company used to be one that forbade any type of cannabis, despite it being legal in several states. Last year they finally recanted and decided to do away with that rule, and also with the hair follicle test (as opposed to urine) because they kept having to reject [perfectly good] hires due to the drug screens.

    11. usually anon*

      I’ve been a user for decades and just never take a job that drug tests. Yeah, it limits opportunities, but also keeps me free of employers that believe a paycheck = ownership.

    12. noahwynn*

      I work for an airline. Some of our employees (pilots, flight attendants, ground staff, etc.) are considered safety-sensitive positions by the FAA and are subject to DOT drug testing. Since the FAA/DOT is a federal agency, the tests follow federal laws, which means marijuana is illegal. Corporate staff (accounting, IT, etc) are not safety-sensitive and are subject to less stringent rules based on the state they work in which may allow marijuana use for medical or even recreational uses.

      I can see it being something like me testing positive for methamphetamine when I was legally prescribed Adderall. I would get a call a day or so after the test from a physician at the testing organization. I would tell them I had a valid prescription for Adderall, give them the doctor’s name and sometimes other info from the bottle. Then they would send a negative result to the company since the positive was due to a legally prescribed medication. At least for the DOT tests, they never wanted that info upfront, and told me to wait for the call.

    13. R*

      Devil’s advocate, if you have the time to waste, you could always apply and go through the interview, and then let them know your situation when they give you the info on scheduling the test. If they don’t care, then hey, you’ve got the job. If they do, then the offer will just kind of fizzle and you’ll be able to be happy knowing you annoyed a company that’s clinging to an outdated, draconian policy. Hey, go ahead and take the test—they’ve got to pay for it, so waste some of their budget too.

      But in seriousness, if you can handle a little disappointment, I don’t see that there’s any harm in asking them straight out and finding out for sure. It’s not like you’re going to get in Trouble—while you make keep your usage discreet, it’s also something that’s prescribed and legal for you. You’re not going to go on a list, no cops will show up, and anyone who would care isn’t going to want to hire you anyway. As a recreational user in a state where that’s legal, I personally find that companies who want to have that much control of me that they make me take a test so they can find out medical details about me, those places aren’t really great to work for.

  14. Puck*

    What does your exposure policy look like at work? Especially if you are a small (understaffed) company?

    We’ve had no policy and the owner “doesn’t want to make everyone with the sniffles get tested”. I know the CDC recommendations but in the real world what are companies doing?

    (I hate I have to ask this and not just follow the CDC. It’s been a conflict at work)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Everyone who has been exposed or has symptoms has to WFH until they get a negative test (for exposure test has to be three days later). We’ll pay for work related exposures (travel, office exposure).

    2. AnonPi*

      I believe it’s based off CDC but not sure if it’s 100%. You have to self quarantine if you’ve been exposed for a week and have a negative test on day 7 before you can come back to work. If you’re symptomatic they want you to stay home until you don’t have a fever for at least 24 hours, and you have to have a negative test to come back. If you had covid and all your symptoms go away, but you’re still testing positive (because you can test positive once you’ve had covid for several months) I think in that case they require something from your doctor that you should be ok to return to work, that you’re not symptomatic and should not be spreading covid to anyone.

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      We’re small, 12 people. If employees are sick, they are supposed to stay home – COVID or not. They work in the extreme heat on asphalt: I REALLY don’t want them to pass out and roast on the burning ground. Most techs are by themselves in their assigned trucks so if they are exposed but not showing symptoms they can decide whether or not they want to work until their tests come back. They are not customer-facing and can be assigned their schedules remotely/text. They are required to socially distance, wear masks, and disinfect their trucks at end of day. If they are showing symptoms, they need to stay home until their tests come back. Our fabrication crew works as a group, so if they were exposed but not showing symptoms they either stay home or I put them on a project they can do themselves until their tests come back. Office staff is a married couple, so if they go down we’re all on vacation.

      In our area 24-hour turnaround for tests are pretty easy to come by, as is the 30-min test. Employees who get the vaccine get a $250 cash bonus.

    4. CR*

      I’m a teacher in Scotland, currently teaching in person. We are asked to do lateral flow tests twice a week regardless, and if we are identified as a close contact of someone who has tested positive we have to get a PCR test immediately and cannot return to work without a negative test.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Before the vax was available we were required to get tested every 30 days. Now that the vax is available the choices are get vaxxed (and prove it) or test every 7 days. The company allows 4 hours to be used during the workday to get a vax, and a “vax sick day” or WFH day without drawing down on PTO/allotted WFH days is included. It strongly encourages vaxxing by making the alternative a pain in the nose.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      I worked from home all this week because I have a cold. I knew it was a cold all along, but I also got a covid test (negative) because it’s required for me to return to the office next week. The rule is testing for any symptoms at all, if there was possible exposure, or if there is any hint at all that you could possibly have covid. In addition to my negative test, I also have to wait until all traces of my cold are gone.

    7. Anonymous Hippo*

      Current, if you are vaccinated, exposure only requires masking. If unvaccinated, you have to quarantine for 2 weeks or until you get a clean test.

  15. Tbubui*

    Just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who gave me advice last month about doing an on camera interview! It went really well! I made sure to pause lots and gave myself time to fully formulate an answer before replying (not a live interview). This is an especially big achievement for me since I have anxiety + camera shyness and tend to speak very quickly when I’m nervous. But I came off well and having this interview/feature on our nonprofit will really help us gain more exposure in our community (especially since we were forced to be closed to the public for over a year because of Covid).

    So thank you so much! Your advice and reassurances were really helpful.

  16. HHD*

    If you had the opportunity to take several months off work, while proactively job seeking, but without much in the way of pressure, what would you do with the time? I haven’t had more than two weeks without work since I left high school, and don’t know what to do with myself!

    1. Rayray*

      I was laid off and out of work for a few months last year. Granted I could do much because of lockdowns but I’m telling you, being able to get adequate sleep, time for exercise , time to just watch movies was so so nice. I also took time to do a couple online classes with khan academy or coursera.

      What would you think of finding a volunteer commitment you could go to once a week or so? You could also take time once in a while to
      Be a tourist in your open city and go do some fun things.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I left a full-time job with nothing lined up about 5 years ago. For the first 6 weeks, I watched comforting TV shows, baked bread, cleaned. I took long walks in nearby parks. I took myself out for a coffee. I got all of the Booker Prize nominees out from the library and read them.

      Then I sought out some structure and took a retail job. It paid crap but got me some money and some structure to my day in a nice environment. I interviewed on my days off and before my shifts and landed a full-time job just as my severance ran out.

      It was a tough couple of months because I’m so risk-averse, but the ability to reset was invaluable.

      1. HHD*

        Resetting is sounding pretty good. I’m really risk averse too, but I’m exhausted and need a bit of a break. I think being kind to myself for a few weeks is going to be key.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d hike, get enough sleep, exercise more, take some fun classes, take my paddle board out a bunch, and just relish in being free from job anxiety and stress.

    4. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      I’m dealing with a different situation that has lead to me having a lot more free time than I used to (in short, due to divorce and 50/50 custody, so no longer spending all my non-work time as mom/house manager).
      I’m cooking my way through a new cookbook I got and I’m getting back into some of the hobbies I let slide over the past few year. Before it got super hot, I was going out to parks and walking a lot on my free weekends. I’m also catching up on all my favorite podcasts that I got behind in. And, I have a list of movies I want to watch that I’m slowly working through.
      If I was taking off from work entirely, I’d also be taking a lot of day trips and doing online courses (probably a mix of practical skill-based courses and more “fun” open college courses on topics of interest) to stay sharp.

    5. Jshaden*

      I’m nearing retirement from the military, and will have a total of almost three months of various type of leave between my last “working” day and my actual retirement date. I’m planning to do a lot of reading and partake in various hobbies during my leave, but if I haven’t finalized my next job by the time leave starts I will also being do some job hunting.

    6. Intermittent Introvert*

      Learn a skill that would benefit your career or make life more fun. Read. Write a blog. Label all your photos. Clean out your closets. Volunteer your skills and time somewhere in your community. Visit elderly neighbors and family and record their stories. Train for a marathon or just a 5K. Check out your local vocational college and learn to weld or cut hair or whatever. (In our state they are tuition free right now.) Discover all the local tourist sites.

    7. HigherEdAdminista*

      I think I would read, write, cook, and take a lot of walks/go to local attractions (providing it was safe to do so!).

    8. LKW*

      When I got laid off I had the most relaxing daily schedule.
      Get up, gym clothes.
      Coffee & news
      Gym
      Library
      Park
      movie, book, book club, dinner, whatever

      Because of the pandemic there are TONS of online classes and lectures through museums and universities. You can do virtual tours of places you haven’t visited (yet).

      You can also try to learn a new skill – I’ve learned how to rewire electrical sockets and stuff from youtube. People are happy to share their skills.

    9. Qwerty*

      I almost did this last year but accidentally stumbled across a good opportunity first. My recommendation is to pick a project (or series of projects) and create a schedule for yourself. For me, my top priorities was finally settling into my apartment (half moved in then turned the place into chaos during the pandemic) and getting my coding skills back after being in a manager position. So I made a schedule and picked actual coding projects and house projects along with some daytime fitness classes that sounded fun. I’m actually a bit sad that I never got to put my plan into action.

      My main motivation was making sure that when I re-entered the workforce that it wouldn’t be a big shock to my schedule.

    10. Anonymous Koala*

      In pre-COVID times, I would travel! Applications can be done from anywhere, and travel can be done fairly cheaply if you’re flexible about times and plans. When I was between jobs last year, I spent the time cleaning out our attic, making photo albums, hiking, and generally trying to work on those ‘someday’ projects that tend to get pushed aside.

    12. kiki*

      I just took a month off in between jobs and I really enjoyed it! I took long walks every morning, read a lot of books, made homemade pasta, and spent time reconnecting with myself and loved ones. It was lovely and I started my next job feeling replenished and ready to tackle anything. Savor the lack of obligations and don’t pressure yourself to be “productive.” Replenishing your spirit often doesn’t look like much from the outside but it makes all the difference.

    13. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I went through this at the start of 2021, but my situation was due to burnout, so my experience may not apply. My 8 months have been spent (in various rotations/mixtures):

      *In therapy (not new, but had energy to go deeper and focus on healing rather than triaging)
      *Talking with friends and family (phone, video, voice memos)
      *Teaching/practicing yoga and other activities that helped me connect with my body
      *Trying to volunteer on Catchafire (surprisingly difficult to find a project match)
      *Cooking/baking
      *Spoiling my plants and arranging them in new ways
      *Furiously job searching

  17. Hen*

    Is it worth being less fashionable to be taken more seriously? I work in a male dominated industry that is also pretty well known for casual dressing. I’m a woman and I love fashion. This hasn’t really been a problem because the last 18 months (since I started) we’ve all been remote, but I’m wondering if I need to grunge down as offices reopen. Fwiw, I have a great track record of work, awesome performance reviews, etc… and I also love glittery handbags and colorful high heels etc. how should I play this?

    1. Cookie D'oh*

      I would probably save the glittery handbags for other occasions. I would play it safe at first to get a feel for office culture and then incorporate more of your personal style once you’re more established in person.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would say maybe do one big standout piece per outfit, if you’re worried about it? Two, if they’re not necessarily close together – like, if you’re not carrying your glittery handbag around the office with you during the day, that doesn’t have to count as your “one” :) Or like, bright red shoes and a statement necklace, with an otherwise relatively simple/casual outfit.

      Personally, I like bright colored super busy prints, paisley and such, so I do a slightly eye-searing skirt with a plain solid-colored top, jacket and shoes.

    3. MissMaple*

      I wouldn’t change your style, but just double check that heels especially won’t slow you down. I love high heels, but they’ve been moved into the special occasion side of my closet, because I just walk too much and have to keep up with people during my job these days. I’ve found some fantastic sparkly loafers lately. Same with skirt and dresses; most days there’s at least a small chance I might be in a clean room, so those get saved for days where I’m sure I won’t have to bunny suit up.

    4. The Rural Juror*

      As long as you’re not dressing inappropriately for the situation. For example, I’m a woman working in construction and do want to look nice for meetings we have with clients or architects, but it would look pretty silly of me show to any of those meetings in high heels. It would make me look a little out of touch with my job, which includes visiting job sites and needing appropriate footwear. I can still wear my boots with a nice sweater, though.

      My advice for you would be not to show up with the glittery-est handbag and high heels on the first day, but to build up over time as you get a sense of the office norms and how comfortable you feel.

      1. LKW*

        Louis Vuitton is doing the 90’s with cute dresses and combat-ish boots. When I worked on a construction site about 25 years ago I had doc martens in different colors. One of the women I worked with would wear these lovely suits and blouses but with her site boots.

      2. Quinalla*

        This! I work construction-adjacent and since I never know when I will need to go to a jobsite and climb a letter or crawl on a gross floor, so I don’t wear dresses/skirts to work and always have backup shoes at work. But I also have no problem wearing feminine tops and fun jewelry, etc. even though I do get some looks for that at times. Sometimes I just wear my blending-in-with-the-dudes outfit to not get the looks, better now that I am getting older (mid 40s).

    5. angstrom*

      The now-retired lab manager at my male-dominated company was a woman who dressed more fashionably and colorfully than the typical business casual. It was not an issue. Everyone who worked with her knew she took her work seriously.

      I think a lot of it is the attitude: comfortable and matter-of-fact. Of course you’re wearing bright blue heels! Why wouldn’t you? “Nice shoes!” “Thanks! Aren’t they fun? Now about that data you asked for…..”

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m not sure how to answer this – I’m a man who’s worked in a male-dominated casual industry (engineering and software). There’s a really broad spectrum between “grunge down” and fashion. And there’s plenty of room for eccentrics in that industry in terms of dress, hair, etc. – and has been for a long time. If you were a middle-aged guy with a ponytail in the 90s, you were probably either a rock star or a programmer.

      It’s hard to say whether you’ll be taken less seriously by your coworkers and management without really knowing them well. Just like anything regarding office culture, I’d advise you to go middle of the road and take your cues from the others that you work with, and then slowly find the edge of the envelope. I personally don’t think jeans, a sweater, and a glittery handbag would even be noticeable. Whereas 5″ heels and a silk suit with an Hermes scarf would probably stand out. But who knows, if you’re sitting next to the guy with the handlebar mustache and utilikilt, you might fade into the background.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        “If you were a middle-aged guy with a ponytail in the 90s, you were probably either a rock star or a programmer.”
        Or you had any of the countless careers in the humanities.

    7. CargoPants*

      I had thought that myself, as I started my first management role this summer. My style is kind of “dark academia meets Millenial with goth regrets” lol. But I kept thinking I’d need to invest in polos and button downs if I wanted to be taken seriously…but after about a month of that, I decided to just dress in what made me feel confident. Since I love statement shoes, I decided to let those be the standout of my outfits, which is a good way to ease into more fashionable dressing at the office if you’re feeling a little unsure.

      It helps that I also like my outfits to be tonal (I wear a lot of neutrals but also will do tonals for colors like olive, purple, dark blue), and I really like that kind of outfit as a backdrop for the statement shoes. It feels a lot more like my style and looks sharp without having to wear something that’s not my jam (I Just Can’t with the button downs, I don’t know why).

      Just as a side note, I shaved my head 3 years ago and my mom was convinced I would be fired. But I had been working my university for nearly 10 years at that point and had a great track record. And now I’m a manager. :) Ultimately your work and reputation speak for themselves.

    8. Sparkles McFadden*

      I think you should dress in whatever way that makes you feel confident and most like yourself.

    9. LKW*

      Wear what makes you happy as long as it meets general professional standards (aka no sequined bikini tops under a jacket). The men who care will either up their game because they too like fashion, or can be shut down with a few redirects or pointed statements like “I dress for myself, this is what makes me happy. Your comments do not make me happy and I’d like them to stop. Can you stop commenting on my wardrobe?”

    10. Weird Resume*

      Question about how to put something on my resume:

      My last full time job was two years ago now. I freelanced fulltime for a year, wasn’t really making enough, and now I still freelance part time and added a part time job in my field. I feel like there’s a bit of a stigma around freelancing when you’re job searching, probably because a lot of people who were laid off (or fired for cause) and have been unemployed may list their gaps this way. Since my freelancing wasn’t too successful anyway I worry about looking like one of these. Since my part time job and my freelancing work overlap, how would you list this?

      Z year – present: part time job
      X year-present: freelancing
      Y year-X year: FT job

      ?

      1. Weird Resume*

        Oh I’m sorry – nesting fail. This was not intended to be a reply to the above. Let me repost.

    11. anonymath*

      Read Laura Huang’s “Edge: how to turn adversity into advantage” (something like that). It’s about stereotypes. But I think that dressing distinctively and owning it can actually be an advantage. If you’re thinking about stereotypes, as a woman (or someone visibly with any minoritized trait) you can’t really win by downplaying it. You are never actually going to be one of the guys. Doesn’t matter how conservatively you dress, doesn’t matter how you change your tone of voice, what sports metaphors you use. So think about how you use who you are to your advantage. Huang has some truly cringey stories about the prof who expected her to speak broken English or whatever. I found some of her thinking on this uncomfortable, but thought-provoking.

      Carla Harris has some complementary advice in “Expect to Win” — she advises being true to yourself and also strategically finding points of connection with your coworkers and others to bridge the divide that might be perceived.

      1. Fran Fine*

        If you’re thinking about stereotypes, as a woman (or someone visibly with any minoritized trait) you can’t really win by downplaying it. You are never actually going to be one of the guys. Doesn’t matter how conservatively you dress, doesn’t matter how you change your tone of voice, what sports metaphors you use. So think about how you use who you are to your advantage.

        I agree with this. As someone who was known (and still am) for my distinctive wardrobe in environments where everyone else was business casual (with a strong emphasis on “casual”), I never once changed how I dressed to attempt to fit in. I would have been miserable if I couldn’t wear my beautiful shoes (mostly heels) and bold, colorful prints. That would have affected my confidence and actually ended up making me bad at my job.

        As someone above said, the people who liked fashion like I did stepped their game up and began dressing better, and those that didn’t still respected me because I was also known for being damn good at whatever my job happened to be at the time. My male colleagues will compliment me if they think I look nice and keep it moving – I say embrace who you are, OP, and people will adapt to you.

    12. Policy Wonk*

      Be yourself, but be reasonable. Not knowing the field, it’s hard to say, but someone else already noted the impracticality of heels on a construction site. Ditto bling or scarves near machinery, or delicate fabrics around chemicals. I would definitely not “grunge down” but would find a way to meld my style with what those around me wear. E.g., if flats are more appropriate to your work, wears shoes in fun patterns or styles in lieu of heels. There should be a way to meet in the middle.

    13. Anonforthis*

      I too work in a male dominated industry (tech) and have worked in other male dominated industries in the past (building manufacturing materials/industrial siding…real exciting stuff). I wore, and still wear, red lipstick, dresses, tops and skirts, colorful prints, occasional heels when I feel like it…the rest of our male team wears tshirts (if I’m lucky). I am the only woman in my department, and the company is about a 50/50 split as far as gender.

      If the environment you work in is generally positive towards women, it doesn’t matter how flashy your clothes are. It will just be seen as part of your personal style. Don’t worry about it.

      If the environment is generally negative towards women, your clothes aren’t going to be the problem, and you will have much bigger problems to deal with beyond your wardrobe.

      1. Anonforthis*

        I will say, when I had to go onsite, or to a warehouse facility, I would wear more appropriate shoes, and I would wear pants. But I never really wore grungy clothes because that’s not my style. The sales guys and technicians were very old school at the manufacturing plant. It took me some time to win them over and convince them I could keep up with difficult concepts like “math” even though I was a woman (eye rollllllll). But wearing a polo shirt and khakis would not have helped with this problem. Eventually I earned their respect, in heels and lipstick, and they came to me to help solve their problems. Because I had shown I was capable.

  18. PurplePartridge*

    I posted in last week’s thread about a scheduled zoom call after final interviews from a job I was hoping to get, and it turned out to be an offer! They came in a little lower than we’d talked about previously, but I negotiated back up to the range we discussed, and was able to push my start date out to take two weeks off between jobs!

    I gave notice at my current job, and was a little worried about how it would go since I’m the key resource on a couple big projects. But my boss was very professional about it and said he understood I had to do what was best for me. I held my ground on not sticking around an extra week or doing contact work after I leave. I’m a people-pleaser, so pretty proud of myself for having boundaries in this regard.

    4. allathian*

      Congrats! Enjoy your time off and your new job! I’m glad your boss was so professional about it.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The original classic in the field is “The Mythical Man-Month”, by Fred Brooks, 1975. It’s a great overview to explain why software projects are so often screwed up.

      Beyond that, it really depends on what kinds of projects, and whether you are using a traditional waterfall approach or an iterative process like Agile.

      1. Budding Product Manager*

        It’s a very small part of our product offerings. Basically adding custom functionality to existing software.

    2. Qwerty*

      This is more of a supplement than a guide, but I like “Scrum and XP from the Trenches” There’s a free pdf available online. It’s one person’s analysis of how his team tried implementing Agile and Extreme Programming and how they parsed through figuring out what works and doesn’t work for their team.

  20. 3Days*

    Hello! Looking for some advice for a resume.

    Spouse’s work history: Bachelor’s -> Lab Work 2 years -> Grad school for education in a niche field-> 1 year teacher’s aid -> 2 years in a non-profit tangentially related to education degree. He is frustrated by the lack of well-paying jobs, poor work/life balance, and competition in his field. He is thinking of going back to lab work. Do we just goose up his lab experience from 5-6 years ago and be brief on his subsequent experience? How should we phrase things so it’s not like ‘I’m giving up on my dreams.’ FWIW his lab employer (who he’s applying for jobs with) let him have a flex schedule once weekly so that he could volunteer with a museum in his field. He would probably continue in his field as a volunteer if he can find a good lab job.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You could modify the resume to bring more relevant stuff to the top.
      — Highlights section detailing target-job related skills/accomplishments.
      — “Lab Experience” section
      — “Other Professional Experience section.

      But if there’s not a huge amount of lab experience, then just goose up that highlights section so the first stuff they’re reading is about that stuff, and by the time they get down a little further, they’re already believing that this is what he does. And lean hard on anything from the non-lab jobs that have anything related to lab like activities.

      A quick note in the cover letter … “I’m returning to lab work because [professional sounding reason] and have X skills for your job” could help.

      1. 3Days*

        Yes, he worked in one position, working on one project, at one employer for two years after undergrad just to save up for a graduate degree. I think it sounds like a good idea to put “Lab Experience” at the top with that job, then “Other Professional Experience” with his subsequent work.

        1. PNW Labrat*

          I would add in something along the lines of “experience w/x equipment or techniques” wherever it best fits. I conducted interviews for a beginner/intermediate lab position this week and we were asking that of a lot of people “What basic lab equipment are you familiar with, such as centrifuges, pipettes, incubators? etc” and looking to hear that people did cell counting, pcr, growing cells in media, and so on types of techniques. Depending on what type of lab he has experienced in.

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            I agree, a techniques/equipment section does make sense in a lab scenario.

            (Source: I worked in a lab and was an unofficial lab manager for a year before starting grad school).

    3. ferrina*

      In the 3 years as a teacher’s aid/non-profit, highlight the aspects that translate in to lab work. List the accomplishments (always accomplishments!) and translate it slightly to show how it uses the same skills and got strong results. Make it really brief though.

      I’m an education>other industry professional, and saying “I love teaching, but the work/life balance where I am isn’t working. I’ll always have a love for teaching, but I’m really looking forward to a position that allows me to ____________.”
      (Leaving the education industry isn’t giving up on education. I manage people and do a ton of education for my young employees; you can volunteer or coach; there’s a ton of ways to educate without being an Educator)

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      I would keep the resume traditional, but add a ‘lab skills’ section with all the techniques he can do in an easily-searchable format. And if possible, add a couple of customized bullet points to the top of each resume with things like “2 years of LCMS experience” and such that name techniques explicitly mentioned in the job posting.

    5. ronda*

      instead of giving up my dream reason…

      “have realized that I really like lab work better, for whatever qualities of lab work he likes/does well/fits.”

      I am not sure what advancement looks like in lab work, but whatever that advancement he would like, think about how lab work might help that and what the path may be like. That could be another reason. if lab work is perceived as lower level than current position, might give a reason he wants to do it to get to another level.

    6. Firecat*

      First of all, if your spouse feels like he is giving up on his dreams he should really work on reframing that. If he feels that way it may come across this way. Our society tries to make us feel bad for leaving an industry with crap pay and body breaking hours – cause passion. Don’t fall for it. Do what is best for you.

      I’m someone who switched fields 3 years after graduating. It’s important to talk about the reasons you like lab work. Usually if someone asks – why did you leave X industry? It’s not a judgement a statement but more them being concerned you aren’t committed to their industry. I was also surprised how long after switching I had to address the industry change 5 years later I was Itill having to answer why the switch. I recommend having a couple of sentences naming what you didn’t like in old industry and why new industry is a better fit.

    7. LabTechNoMore*

      Emphasize the lab experience with a “Skills” section and as many lab-based acronyms as you can reasonably list. You’ll also need the right acronyms to catch the eye of the hiring manager. Your best bet is to get familiar with the techniques, abbreviations and which lab subfield(s) you’re applying to. Also they’re applying for a lab job in a different scientific application, it helps to be able to connect the dots between the work your spouse did and the work they’re applying for, even if the connection is a bit tenuous and theoretical.

      Also get a sense of the “advanced” labwork the hiring managers are interested in – what’s the thing that two years in your spouse could do that a beginner couldn’t do? (e.g. Manual dexterity for syringe or pipetting technique, running tricky assays, carrying out difficult sample prep, mechanical repairs of instrumentation, impressive troubleshooting, etc.) Getting back into the grove of a job from 5-6 years ago may be a hard sell, but 2 years experience is nothing to sneeze at.

    8. Frankie Bergstein*

      You’re such a good partner doing this level of information-gathering and due diligence for your significant other. They’re so lucky to have this work, investment, effort – whatever you want to call it – into their career and well-being. You are generous!

  21. Rayray*

    Any advice for getting into an Instructional Design job? It’s something I’ve considered and I know right now I need to do something to get into a better career path. I’m comfortable but can’t keep doing this kind of work I’m doing forever.

    I looked at my company’s job descriptions and it looks like a bachelors degree in various subjects including English which I have are acceptable. I know a friend of mine did an instructional design job with her linguistics degree a few years back. I was wondering though if I should actually pursue a Masters in Instructional Design. Western Governor’s University has a program that looks doable, and hey, they’re actually super close to where I live so if I wanted to try and get a job there I know from acquaintances who work there tou get discounted tuition.

    But yeah, would it be worth pursuing a masters degree for that field? I’m also wondering if I should keep an eye and see if a position opens up at my company but I really think they probably have a super small team since they likely just do our annual training courses and such.

    1. cubone*

      I have started considering this too and haven’t done a ton of research (plus I’m in Canada, so that may affect usage and terms for different degrees, etc). But I have generally found from postings and people in the field that a certificate/diploma + experience seems more useful than a Masters. Granted, if you get the experience and knowledge from the Masters, I’m sure it would still be valuable. But I think a lot of Masters programs can still lean more into theory than practice (not a blanket statement of course!!) and this is an area where you REALLY need practice, not just theory.

      I don’t really know the best route but a couple folks have recommended IDOL courses to me. It’s not a degree but they found the hands-on elements better (but as with any private educational company, you should be thorough and understand fully what you’re getting! I can’t speak to whether they are worth it or not, personally)

      1. Rayray*

        That’s good to know, and yeah, like you I am seeing that experience shows up more in JOb descriptions than Masters degrees. I will look into the IDOL because I haven’t heard of that.

        Good luck to you!

      2. Sallyacious*

        I’m an instructional designer. I got my first ID job with a graduate certificate in instructional design from an accredited university. There are several schools that offer those and I know that right now there is a dearth of designers and companies are scrambling to hire them. A good certification program will take you less than a year and you will probably be able to find something after that.

    2. velomont*

      I would say that there are two facets to this (and I am a specialist in that field). The first is familiarity with, and understanding of the concepts. There is very standard terminology used so you would have to be comfortable with that. The other is the nature of the competition.
      I’ve seen in some smaller cities offices which have Instructional Systems Designers who have BEds and in larger cities where most ISDs have MEds. Are there any community colleges in your area that have some basic diploma courses associated with this?
      At minimum, however, you need to get a grounding in the basic concepts.

    3. Carol*

      I would try to get some sort of experience for your resume rather than a full degree (at least at first–maybe even some kind of mini-course would be better), and aim for corporate ID as a first job or series of jobs. Learn the discipline on the job.

      You might be able to get a job at a university to help fund a degree, of course, but higher ed jobs CAN be extremely competitive if you don’t already have your foot in the door somehow. It all depends, but it can be tough. Professional MAs are so so expensive. If you’re desperate to leave your current field it’s an option, but it may be easier to find something ID related that’s close to your current work and see if you can get that.

    4. Snark No More!*

      Try universities and colleges. If you’re on the east side of the US, try the university of Pittsburgh…

    5. Daffodilly*

      Waves hi!
      I’m also an aspiring ID and WGU is local-ish to me, so we are probably near each other.
      I have been looking for a while with no luck. Doing a masters in ID (not WGU) slowly on nights/weekends. Keep working my day job in the meantime. I chose this long game route because I could do it pay-as-you-go and not go into debt. Also wouldn’t feel intense stress to finish fast and save money like I would with the WGU setup. I talked with a WGU advisor and they have a K-12 slant to their program, plus you had to have access to a teaching population for your capstone research, which I don’t have. (he said most of their students are classroom teachers and it’s assumed you’ll have that or a similar population to work with. Might be worth setting up an appointment with a program advisor over there to see if it’s a good fit for you.
      If local conferences and networking meetups start up again and can be safely done, I’ll definitely be there.

      1. Disco Janet*

        As someone current getting a Master’s at WGU, I second this. The instructional design program is very much geared towards current classroom teachers. I am one, so that’s not a problem for me! But if you aren’t, it would be a struggle.

    6. new kid*

      I’m in this field and imo it is one where a master’s is a huge boost – most positions that are actually called out as ID roles are going to require a master’s, in my experience. That said, before I got my master’s I actually managed to go into ID sideways through lower level content development/technical writing roles (maybe also search ‘eLearning’ as a keyword). Those tend to pay pretty well and don’t require a higher degree, though you’ll want to have a really solid writing portfolio and/or subject matter expertise in the business area of whatever companies you’re looking at in order to be competitive.

    7. Skeeder Jones*

      Hi, I’m an instructional designer and have been in this position for about 4 years. I was hired as a contract position for technical writing (doing work that really fell under ID) and when the ID position opened up, they asked me to apply. I knew a lot about the ID software we were using (Articulate) and a whole bunch of stuff about Learning and Development (certification as a trainer and many years experience being a full-service training person) but I don’t have a masters and wasn’t sure I wanted to get one. At my company, we have a very educated workforce and I wanted to be able to stand up against them so the masters wouldn’t necessarily give me additional knowledge, it would just be for “street-cred”. Instead, I found an online certification through a local (and well-respected) university extended ed program. It was a lot cheaper than a masters and I made a ton of great contacts. In fact, one of my classmates pulled together a group of us that are local (there were people in the program all over the US and internationally) and we started meeting on a regular basis to talk and network (then switched to virtual after covid). At the time, I was the only one working as an ID but in the last year, every single one of them got a job as an ID! So you might want to consider a certification instead! My program was through UCI (University of California Irvine) but there are others, including one offered by ATD (Association for Talent Development).

  22. Free Meerkats*

    It’s annual self-evaluation time for appointive employees here. I have decided to pretty much copy and paste last year’s and make changes where necessary. I’m busy and there’s no raise in the offing for me.

    Does anyone have advice here?

    1. My name*

      I’ve been doing that for a few years now. I always got the feeling they would do what they wanted no matter what I wrote. My duties are pretty much the same, and I can only get the standard raise everyone gets since I’m at the top of my pay band. Going to be less inclined this year because I’m retiring next March. There may be some cash bonus, sometimes leave award, but it’s relatively small.

    2. Juneybug*

      Just make sure to show growth in your career. Maybe you took on new projects? Took a leadership role?
      Bummer there is no raise. :(

    3. LKW*

      Write down your preferred career progression and what you want the company to do to support it – give you opportunities in x,y,z or more training or management or whatever it is you want to achieve.

    4. ferrina*

      Thesaurus.

      I’ve used the same quarterly goal for over a year, but swapped out synonyms to make it look slightly different. My boss never caught on.

  23. Mrs. Hoover*

    If applicable, can folks share their stories about changing careers? (I mean significant shifts in a completely different field). I’ve been doing my job for 15 years and after a year of significant personal change, I am DONE with where I live (NYC) and what I do (my job is basically managing other people’s projects… I have very little input on the projects themselves, I just make them pretty). I want something simpler where I work on things more directly… plus, I want to feel confident in what I do (my whole career I’ve just felt mildly competent but not creative or unique or proactive, as I’m not inspired by the projects I’ve ever been assigned).

    I’ve been dancing around job postings, trying to get my bearings. Do I want to move first and keep doing this job or do I want to change jobs first and then try to find something somewhere else?

    I’m hoping hearing other perspectives might help me figure out what I want to do next

    1. not a doctor*

      I think it’s best to switch jobs before moving, but it PARTLY depends on where you want to live next. If you’re planning to move to another major city, that seems safer to me than somewhere further out of the way (where finding jobs will be more difficult in general).

      I did these things in the opposite order (including moving TO NYC), but I didn’t have a choice at the time, and it did take me a good while to actually switch to the new field (although there were other mitigating circumstances for that). But I did successfully switch, and you can too!

    2. Ms. Impostor Syndrome*

      I came here to post basically the same thing. Been at my job for 15 years and while I like the company I work for I have no motivation lately. I feel dated in my expertise from doing mostly the same thing and want to try something new…but what? I also have severe impostor syndrome so I feel like I’m under qualified for everything.

    3. Parakeet*

      I shifted between extremely different fields, like night and day levels of different (they could use a lot more collaboration with each other IMO, it would benefit both, but that’s a whole other issue). I had been volunteering extensively in the field that I work in now and in closely related areas (it’s the kind of field where there’s a lot of opportunities for volunteer work), for several years. I hadn’t initially ever planned on working in it as staff, I just liked the volunteering, but when for various reasons I was seriously considering leaving my previous field, I got a staff job at one of the orgs I volunteer for. I was already a reasonably known quantity to them as I’d been a volunteer for more than five years at that point. It was originally an interim job to ease a staffing shortage, but eventually became non-interim, and I’ve been in this job for a year and a half now.

      I do still keep up some with my old field (taking free classes, doing little projects), but in a very very different subfield than before (as I said, I think my new field and parts of my old field would benefit from more collaboration and from more cross-trained people, and that realization was part of what got me interested in the different subfield).

    4. Teapots to Books and back*

      I worked in one industry (lets say teapot painting) for almost 10 years after graduating with a degree in that field. About halfway through those ten years, I started a side hustle (lets say reading books and writing reviews). When I got laid off from first industry, I jumped into side hustle full time for the next 20 years. After 20 years of side hustle as a freelancer (which meant marketing, sales, bookkeeping etc in addition to the work itself) I was tired of the non stop hustle and lack of benefits. Went back to school and got the next level certification in my first industry (master teapot painter) It took me over a year to find a position in teapot painting and it was more a matter of luck than anything else.

      So, all this to say that if you want to change industries, its helpful to have recent education/certifications etc in the new industry but also, expect to work REALLY hard to find a new position (especially if you’re hoping to get something other than entry level) I couldnt even get entry level jobs because everyone I talked to thought I would be bored by them/too old/whatever. :(

    5. Laney Boggs*

      ~COVID Warning~

      So last week our location implemented a 100% mask ban (that no one listens to). The exception is “when you’re eating or drinking during breaks.”

      Well, my manager just sent out a meeting invite and “breakfast will be provided.”

      A) I’m fuming
      B) what do I do

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This got nested funny, but I’ll answer it here. I would address B and request that breakfast to be served outside before the meeting moves inside.
        Cite your local area’s Covid hospitalization rates and the increased Delta driven breakthrough infections.
        And wear your mask whether or not they do.

      2. Anon-mama*

        @Laney: wear a KN95 mask, don’t eat, open the windows. If that won’t work, conveniently remember an appointment you have for exactly that time.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Not a direct answer, but a couple of frameworks that I’ve been finding useful as I navigate my own transition:

      *_Designing Your Life_ by Dave Burnett and Dave Evans

      *The ZigZag Project (a six part podcast series with exercises).

  24. DeepAnon*

    My company just advertised two positions internally. Both are well within my skill set, with one being a very good match. I am currently in a role I mostly enjoy, though my skills are under-utilized.

    I like my current setup, with two jobs, neither of which taxes me much, leaving time for art.
    But I’d like to apply for one of these more interesting positions too.
    Adding more responsibility to my life would be unfeasible but if they could pay enough for me to drop the part-time job and only have one job, it would be an overall improvement.

    Where I see a risk here would be to get an offer but not take it because they can’t meet what I’d need to make.
    Would that be likely to get me pushed out as a “flight risk?”

      1. DeepAnon*

        Full-time, as is my current job with the same company.
        I have a side gig, which is pretty typical for this company and industry.

        1. not a doctor*

          I agree with the advice below — try to find out the salary in advance, or at least if the salary you’re looking for is likely to be offered. If so, and you end up getting low-balled, I wouldn’t mention the side gig, simply note that you were hoping the increase in hours and responsibility would be compensated at [rate], or cite the research you’ve done for the role.

    2. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      If it is internal can you inquire as to the salary range they are considering? I would not interview and then not take it internally.

  25. hi*

    Just wanted to thank Alison for all the great advice. Your interviewing tips helped me get an internship at my dream company for the past 8 months! Today is my last full time day and now I get to stay part time during the semester. So happy and fortunate to be in this position.

  26. OP from yesterday*

    Hey all- OP here from the “ask the readers” post yesterday. quick comment here because I was late in getting to it and I’m guessing no one is really reading the comments on that post anymore.
    I just want to say thank you for all of the thoughtful advice and commiseration. It’s nice to know I am not alone, and also always good to remember that there all sorts of people NOT calling and NOT angry (and in fact very happy) about the policies. I will be taking everything said here into account as I prep my staff for the announcement, including talking to my boss about setting up a way for people to request refunds via our website, so it does not fall fully on our shoulders.
    Thank you again, I will let y’all know how it goes!

      1. Dasein9*

        Oooh, just had an idea: can you keep a notebook where folks record the most outrageous conversations, then act them out, with all due drama, at an end-of-season party?
        (You’d have to serve ham, of course.)

        1. OP from yesterday*

          oooo that’s an excellent idea. in the before times we would sometimes do dramatic readings of e-mails from people criticizing our artistic choices. “you do too many gay shows” was a real winner (cringe).

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Honestly, when I feel safe enough to see live shows again, that’s probably a production I would want to see…

    5. Zephy*

      Thank you for checking back in! My sister also works in live theater as a company/stage manager. Her specific company was able to “pivot to video” (as it were) over the past 18 months to a certain degree (Zoom theater is actually a really unique experience, 10/10 would recommend), but I’m sure she will soon be facing a similar problem. Her area seems to be handling things decently well, they had rapid testing really early on and their vax rate is good, but there’s always going to be some unfathomable assholes delightful individuals in the mix.

    6. Neon Dreams*

      Glad to hear the comments helped you, OP! There will be the angry customers, but others will be happy you’re open again and provided much needed relief and entertainment. I’ll be locking forward to an update :)

  27. Hurricanin' on My Start Date*

    I’ve been hired for a remote job and we agreed I’d start on Sept 1. Unfortunately, I live in the Southern USA and it’s very likely we’re going to get hit by a hurricane this weekend. It’s still uncertain, though. Last year, I was out of power for a week.
    Is it unreasonable for me to ask the company if I can push back the start date or should I plan to find somewhere, anywhere, with an internet connection, so I can fulfill the agreed-upon start date?

    2. DivineMissL*

      It’s impressive that you’re thinking ahead. I’d just send exactly what you wrote here to your contact at the new job, and ask them what they’d recommend. You’re being proactive, this is a good thing! It shows initiative and planning on your part. Let them tell you how they want to handle it; but ask them now, so they have time to prepare just in case. Good luck on the new job!

    3. Elenna*

      IMO any reasonable boss should understand “I can’t start that week because there’s literally a hurricane”.

    4. foolofgrace*

      I think you should just let them know of the possibilities and ask if they would prefer you push your start date out, or roll the dice and see if power goes out. I wouldn’t stress myself trying to find internet access somewhere, frankly it might be difficult to find.

    5. Cat Mom*

      Would it be reasonable notify them of the impending hurricane and to ask them if your start date can be moved in the event it knocks out your power?

    6. WellRed*

      I don’t think you should ask to push it back for a hurricane that may or may not disrupt you. I do think you could bring it up in an FYI way and ask how they’d like you to handle it.

      1. WellRed*

        I’m in an area that was supposed to get slammed by Bob last week. After all the hype, A nothingburger.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          You can thank me for that … I finally got around to buying the inverter and battery I need to run my CPAP during a power outage. So because of the perversity of the universe, I could not lose power and Henri had to veer off course.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would get in touch and just ask about contingencies. That way, if the hurricane passes you by at the last minute, you’re still set. Email your new manager and give them a heads up that there’s a hurricane coming which may impact your Internet service– you’re still planning to start on 9/1, but you can push the date if they’d prefer. Let them make that decision.

    8. Camellia*

      Well, if you think you’ll evacuate anyway, I’d plan for that and make the start date. If you aren’t sure, I’d just ask them what they want to do.

    9. Mynona*

      From a former Houstonian: Notify your supervisor and/or HR contact of the possibility of weather-related internet outage and ask for guidance. If they are in a region that doesn’t experience hurricanes, explain to them that it is impossible to predict how the storm will impact you based on past storms. It doesn’t seem necessary to pre-emptively ask for a week delay at this stage.

    10. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think it’s reasonable to ask if you can push it back because the start of a new job during a possible emergency isn’t ideal at all, but I think this would be a good time to find out their policies on this for the future too; you live in an area that gets hurricanes — what do they expect whenever a remote employee loses power/phone/internet? If you lose power, are there any tasks that you can still accomplish offline and hand over later, or use cellular service (if you have access to that), or are you expected to use PTO or go unpaid?

    11. RagingADHD*

      I agree with the others – get in touch, have the conversation, and see what the options are.

  28. MissGirl*

    Any product managers here? How does it compare to project management? Pros and cons of the job? I’ve heard people complaining about project management because you have all the responsibility to get something done but no power to actually do it.

    There are a few product management positions at my job (data analytics).

    1. ferrina*

      I’m a project manager, but I’ve worked alongside product managers. I’ve seen product managers run in two camps- the product owner and the product coordinator (not actual titles, more of role descriptions).
      Product owners control the strategic vision of the product. What it should be, what it’s brand and features need to focus on, etc. It can be high pressure, involve politics, but you get a lot of control over your product.
      Product coordinator-style tends to be where someone else dictates strategy, but you have to figure out the nuts and bolts. They say they want to add a widget, and you need to get a design of the widget in front of them, then execute that design (looping in other experts and stakeholders as needed). You are responsible for setting the product specs based on the strategic vision
      A product owner often works across teams to capitalize on expertise to get what they need for their product.

      A project manager is a professional cat herder. You need to get the specs from the teams, figure out the responsible parties, negotiate timelines, then check-in and hold feet to the fire as necessary. You might work on one product, or you might work across products.

      There’s a lot of overlap in the skills that you need. As a project manager, it can turn in to a situation where you have responsibility without power, depending on the company and team you work for. I’ve never had much of a problem with it, since I like to Return To Sender. “Oh, you won’t hit that timeline? Okay, thanks for letting me know. I’ll communicate that to BigBoss and see how they’d like to follow up.” Amazing how you mention that you’ll simply communicate who is causing backlog and problems get cleared up…..

    2. Anonforthis*

      I am a Product Manager for a medium sized (less than 100 employees) tech company.

      What I have learned:
      1. People skills = very important. You have to get a lot of buy in, lead with influence but without direct authority, and invest a lot of capital, strategically in different places. I’m always looking for opportunities to make better interpersonal connections with stakeholders to smooth over the rough edges with projects.
      2. Developers have feelings. I do not see my job as “telling devs what to do.” My job is to translate the customer’s concerns to the devs, empower them to help with solutioning, and translate their concerns back into stakeholder speak. I make a point of calling out great work by individual devs to higher ups in the company to give them recognition. I have learned their lingo and entered their world. I am, because of dogged determination, very successful at working with our devs and, dare I say, they actually like me? I’ve also made it a goal to win over the most “difficult” devs to work with. It makes it a lot easier to do my job.
      3. I have to say “no” a LOT. Steps 1 & 2 are very, very helpful setting me up to say “no” and not get pummeled constantly (or maybe more accurately, not pummeled as hard). If people feel like they’ve been heard, and you’ve considered their concerns, but you can explain your ruling on the issue, it helps smooth over a lot of rumpled egos.
      4. You have to have a strong backbone, and a willingness to forge ahead and make mistakes. Even when you don’t have all the data. Sometimes you have to make calls on things and prioritize them based on a gut feeling and pivot later. This is because you won’t always have all the data, or the access to the customer that you need at the time when the decision has to be made, and you can’t just stall out, you have to commit to a course of action and then defend it. I’m still struggling with this one and trying to get more aggressive about defending what I believe is right for the customer and the roadmap.
      5. You will never have a “typical day.” If you like a lot of autonomy, to set your own schedule, chart your own path, this is a great job. If you prefer to have people tell you what to do/assign work to you…not so much.
      6. Communication is key. I record every meeting I attend, go back and rewatch, review the transcripts, take meticulous notes. When someone asks me “do you know about X?” I can pull up notes from 3 years ago with a quick key word search.
      7. Depending on the industry (SaaS for instance) it’s not bad to have some coding skills, or learn some basic shortcuts, like MySQL for data analysis and etc. Not in-depth, but just enough to be dangerous if you need to modify a query without bugging someone so you can pull the data you want.
      8. There are always things that you can find to fill up your day, but you have to have a cut-off point. Being basically competent in a generalized way with a few tools is helpful. Expert level is not required. Mastery should only be pursued in areas of biggest impact (influence, asking the right questions, listening, making decisions).
      9. Google Ken Norton “Bring the Donuts” for a great description of a PM.
      10. I have an actual whiteboard in my home office so I can brainstorm when the mood strikes (which it does at inopportune moments when things just “click” in my brain). I take photos of the brainstorm and pop them into my evernote for the future so I don’t lose it.
      11. I am a human pincushion and have to absorb barbs from stakeholders, bosses, and the engineering team. Because the first thing you learn in this job is you can’t please everyone, so don’t even try. You DO need to please the customer, though, because they are the reason your product exists. I would suggest developing a tough skin, if you don’t already have one.
      12. It can actually be a really fun job if you have a good team. There are certainly stressful aspects to it, but it can be very empowering to have a level of influence that allows you to empower other people and create solutions that help your customers and have a DIRECT IMPACT on revenue, strategy, growth, etc. I’m still learning about some of these higher level things (I report to the CPO and absorb a good bit through osmosis).
      13. I do a good bit of “extracurricular” learning on my own. Reading product books, learning about frameworks, finding new tools, reading links that our devs send me about stuff they care about, reading up on our industry, etc. This is a must, in my opinion.
      14. Just because someone in a blog advocates for a particular methodology or system doesn’t mean it’s the best one for your company. You have to combine the best of what you like and tailor it to your environment. Don’t introduce red tape into the process if it doesn’t truly need to be there just because a talking head at FAANG said “this is the only way to do product, be like us.”
      15. It’s very helpful to be organized. If you don’t have a system for keeping track of “all the things,” make one. I’m building a lot of our process and infrastructure as I go. I happen to work for a pretty disorganized CPO, so it’s a must in my case.

      Product is great! With the caveats that come with any job: at the right company, under the right management, within the right team.

  29. First time anon*

    Hi all – I was wondering if I could get some thoughts/advice on my current situation. I have been in my role for about 4.5 years and right now there are a lot of opportunities for me to move up in my organization, but they are all in other departments. I really like my job and department, but over the 4.5 years, my role has evolved and I have more on my plate than ever. I’ve also done back up quite a bit when positions were open on our team because of leave and turnover (some I got add pay for, some I did not). My boss has expressed that they do not want to lose me and is it trying to get me a promotion or at least a raise. Ideally, I would be promoted in my current department, but there is obviously no guarantee of that.

    Should I just give up on being promoted and pursue other opportunities? Would getting an offer help me get promoted or just burn bridges? Any and all feedback is helpful to hear. Thank you!

    1. WellRed*

      Why are you giving up on being promoted? And have you had an actual sit down with current boss yo discuss possibilities and timelines?

      1. First time anon*

        Thanks for the response. I should probably provide a bit more context. I work in higher ed and my position is funded by the college rather than the department having a budget for positions in my team (so the college has ultimate authority over raises, promotions, etc). To answer your questions – yes, I have sat down with my boss and they are 100% behind me being promoted and they broached the subject of a promotion. If it was solely up to my boss, I’d have been promoted a long time ago, but COVID-related financial measures at the college level have put a damper on promotions. I guess where I am struggling is that my boss is currently putting in efforts to get me promoted, but I am not sure the college will agree and feel like maybe I should not wait for that to pan out and instead pursue opportunities where I know I can get a more senior position.

        1. The Dude Abides*

          Almost a year, ago, I was in a similar scenario. My boss left right as the pandemic shut everything down, and I stepped up to cover a chunk of his reporting duties up until the day I left. New boss and new grandboss tried to get me a raise/title bump, but the CFO said no. The moment I was told the CFO said no, I started applying for promotions outside my unit. It took a while (six months from application to interview), but I got out. Since then, both grandboss and new boss left, and another major project just got dropped in their lap.

          The boss can talk all he wants, but talk will not get you the promotion. I would start pursuing outside options yesterday.

          1. dumdums from the teller*

            Yup, I’ve been doing promotion-worthy work for several years, and all I got was the title bump (oh, wait, I also got skepticism about “well, is money that important to you?”). So I’ve been looking….

            1. The Dude Abides*

              In my case, a title bump would have automatically gotten me a raise.

              CFO claimed that 1) adding the tasks to my JD was not enough for the title bump, and 2) I would have had to re-apply for my own job if they bumped the title, and blamed the union contract for all of it.

              Now, I’m still within the same agency after a two-title jump, and the new grandboss (who I worked with in the old job) is practically begging me to take over as manager.

    2. Alianora*

      I’m also in higher ed. I think it would make sense to pursue other opportunities, but that doesn’t mean you need to give up on being promoted. Like WellRed said, good idea to have a conversation with your boss about specific timelines for the promotion. Job searches can take a long time, especially in universities. Maybe you’ll hear back about the promotion before you get an offer.

      If you do get an offer and you’d prefer the promotion, then you can take it to your boss and explain that you’ve received an offer, but you’d rather stay in the department if at all possible. I think it’s more likely than not that you’d be told to take the offer in this scenario. But there’s a chance it might expedite the promotion if that’s already in the works. And I don’t think it would burn a bridge in a reasonable workplace. But if you go this way, you do need to be prepared to take the other opportunity.

      And of course maybe you’ll get an offer that’s better than the anticipated promotion.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      There is not enough info here to say what will work in your specific situation. But I found that leaving my organization to take a job in a different one, and subsequently a third one, ultimately made me a more attractive candidate when a senior job opened up in the original org. I had the nuts and bolts experience in that org’s work, but also had a broader perspective of the overall business than my near-peers who had stayed there over the same time period.

    4. First time anon*

      Thank you to all who replied! All of you brought up great points and are giving me the boast I need to continue looking elsewhere.

  30. Anon in Ohio*

    Any suggestions for people looking to branch out more into freelance writing? My boyfriend has been writing essays and the like for the last 3 years but is looking to get into more established channels of freelance writing. He had one unsuccessful trial with a copy writing agency and is talking with one research agency, what other channels should he be looking at?

    1. Neon Dreams*

      hey from one state over! (WV). I’m looking to the freelance route myself and it’s so overwhelming. I’ve found several websites to apply for work and found resources through a podcast (becomeawritertoday.com is one of them). But I’m stumped on how to land clients. I’ll be interested in replies as well.

    2. Kara*

      I haven’t freelanced since 2016 but back when I did it you had to pitch individual stories to clients.

    3. mreasy*

      Find the publications he would like to write for (starting on the small side) and pitch them. My husband is an EIC and this is how they find many of their new writers.

  31. Camellia*

    I wish there was a ‘secret shopper’ experience that we could do for HR. I work for a great, mid-sized corporation. They take care of us in many ways, e.g., pivoted to WFH and we’re not going back yet, gave us an extra Personal Day last month because this year has been so hard, generous leave and sick time, constantly have ‘chats’ and ‘town halls’ and ‘breakfasts and lunches (when we were still in the office)’, all to give us chances to get to know, see, and speak to, our leadership teams, who generally are very open and approachable. I’ve been here eleven years and hope to stay longer.

    However, back when we were still in the office, I came in from vacation to be told by a co-worker that someone from another team was transitioning male-to-female. I immediately went to co-worker’s desk to congratulate them and ask which pronouns they preferred (she/her). She thanked me, we chatted a bit, she asked me a couple of questions about makeup (my hobby), so I invited her to lunch to discuss. At lunch, she told me that when she had gone to HR to share and get some support, the only thing they did was panic and say, “YOU’RE NOT GOING TO START WEARING DRESSES TO WORK TOMORROW, ARE YOU?!?!”. And then tell her that she could only use the separate, handicap restroom. I was SO disappointed in my great company. Granted, this may have been the first time they had to handle this scenario, but still, I would have thought they would have a plan. This still bothers me and makes me wonder what other scenarios they might not handle well, hence the ‘secret shopper’ thoughts. Oh well.

    1. Web Crawler*

      I wish that was a thing too, especially for trans scenarios. My HR wasn’t bad, but I’ve heard too many horror stories from friends.

    2. fairleigh*

      With your colleague’s permission, going back and telling HR what you’ve said here might be useful. It can be really wearing to be the person going through a major change, as well as simultaneously having to educate people and push back at the same time. You can help her by taking on some of the latter.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      A friend of mine recently came out to HR and let them know she’s planning to transition, and they said, “That’s good because we realized we need more diversity at this firm.” HUGE CRINGE. It’s good because it’s someone is going to live life as their authentic self, not because it helps you check a corporate box.

      If that’s what it takes for some people to be supportive, it’s better than the wide range of negative and unsupportive reactions…but urgh.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      They may need a bit of time to regroup and do a better thing.

      Accidentally dropping some helpful guides into the HR department’s inbox might be a way to help them reframe their panic. And in the meantime, give the same resources to your colleague, and openly (and without overt glitter) act as if this is a perfectly normal and ok thing for someone to be experiencing while being a person with a job, so that your other colleagues can have something to model their own reactions toward.

      1. TPS Reporter*

        I agree, you don’t have to refrence this particular co-worker but could ask HR if they could put together trainings or guidlines on diversity and inclusion that discuss trans issues.

  32. Escaped a Work Cult*

    Updates from last week and my slacker coworker who went on vacation before completing the work in the process we need her to! Well she saved over my work to remove the updates I made and I finished documenting the proof for it.

    Manage versions on GDrive, you are a lifesaver for the proof.

    Have handed it over to my boss and absolutely letting him take it over. I’m too frustrated and upset to have any kind of professional conversation.

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Wait, was she trying to take out your updates to make it look like any requests for further work weren’t in there?

    3. Mockingjay*

      I am infuriated on your behalf. I’ve also had people take out my edits and corrections. And yep, I live my life by version history.

      I hope your boss takes action with Slacker.

  33. hoggums*

    Hi all, I need some help respectfully excusing myself from a retirement party. My supervisor is retiring and he had his work-sponsored retirement party this week (during work), which I attended. One of my team members is throwing him a smaller party at his house this weekend, which will include our immediate team as well as a few people who moved out of our team but were on it many years ago (I’ve never met them). I was originally leaving for a work trip this weekend and wasn’t able to go because of that but my trip was moved to leave late next week now. I have really bad social anxiety and flat out do not want to go to this lol. Everyone else will be there with spouses and/or kids, I’m the only person going alone. And the one team member on my team who I am closest to is not going due to a prior commitment. Additionally, I want to relax and finalize packing during my last weekend before going out of town for a month, because last weekend I was frantically packing and doing errands on what I thought was my last weekend. When everyone at work found out my trip was moved, their first response was “great, now you have nothing going on so you can come to the retirement party!” “the address is X” And I was unsure what to reply so I just said “ok”. What can I make to get out respectfully? I was thinking of saying I plan to visit my dad before my long trip but I feel that will seem weird as I can visit him
    another day on the weekend.

    1. CatCat*

      “Something has come up and I can’t make it.” If they press, just a vague, “A family thing I need to help out with, but have a great time at the party!”

      1. Elenna*

        This – go with something vague so they can’t poke holes into it, and then switch the topic to “congrats on your retirement” or whatever.

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I like this! You can add, “Since I have to miss this one, I’m glad we got a chance to celebrate together earlier :)”

        Also, smile for real, don’t hold up an emoji sign infront of your face.

    2. not a doctor*

      Oof. I sympathize, but I don’t think you have a way out of it without looking bad at this point. Maybe you can cite your dad as a reason to arrive late/leave early, but I think you at least have to put in an appearance.

      1. not a doctor*

        I’m surprised by the other comments! I think in my area, skipping an important event with the whole team present would be seen negatively. If you think you can get away with it, though, totally do it.

      2. Fran Fine*

        The OP absolutely can skip this one since she already attended the original retirement party. If anyone wants to judge OP for it, that’s their problem.

    3. Twisted Lion*

      I would just say something came up and you wont be able to make it, congratulations again on their retirement. The person retiring will be too busy to care. And your nosy coworkers might ask but you can just say you got a migraine or something. Dont feel bad. My personal time is precious and I dont like going to stuff like this either. LOL

    4. identifying remarks removed*

      I’d say visiting your Dad is a good way out. Your coworkers don’t need to know when he is available – if they ask you can say he has plans on the other day.

    5. Mynona*

      Citing COVID precautions/avoiding large gatherings might be an option. My department has had a lot of resignations in the last few weeks, hence more than usual going away gatherings, and they made me realize that I am not ready for large-group-indoor-unmasked-parties, even when I known my co-workers are vaccinated. People understand–it’s a weird time with all the unvaccinated kiddos going back to school.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would probably just not go, assuming it’s not a formal seated dinner party, and then if someone asked me about it on Monday, “Sorry, I had family stuff going on all weekend!”

    7. Dasein9*

      The above replies are great: a polite “something came up.” The only thing I’d add is maybe sending a nice card with handwritten, sincere, kind words about how much you appreciate your supervisor. That way, your final interaction can still be positive and warm.

  34. Albeira Dawn*

    I was reading through the archives yesterday and came across a post from 2011 asking people what their “secret fantasy careers” are. I figured it’s time for an update!

    Definition of a secret fantasy career: something grounded in reality that you didn’t pursue for whatever reason. Common responses to the last post were things like event planner, librarian, chef.

    I’ll put mine in the comments!

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      Some things I’ve thought about: architectural historian, archivist, fancy garden designer, investigative journalist but for really mundane things like county commission efforts.

      1. awesome3*

        I do always get that spark when I see reporters live tweeting school board meetings, like wow, imagine if that was me

        1. Albeira Dawn*

          Reporter livetweeting school board meetings was my exact inspiration! I’ll livetweet planning commission meetings from time to time, but it’s not the same as getting paid to debunk all the bad data they bring up.

      2. Mojo021*

        I have always wanted to do something with books! Editor, reviewer… even a librarian… I wouldn’t mind being an admin to an editor… anything with books that allows dogs in the office :)

      1. Albeira Dawn*

        Ooooh, that’s a good one. And also reminded me that I sometimes dream of being an executive assistant at a publishing company.

    3. Nela*

      Astronomy researcher
      Robotics engineer
      If I hadn’t flunked my EE studies, I could have ended up as the latter. I’m happy with my creative career, though!

    4. fairleigh*

      Sea captain

      But I decided being the lone female on the high seas in an industry well-known for assault was a bad idea

      1. MissDisplaced*

        My friend has her 100 Ton USCG captain’s license and delivers boats for a living. She does 3-4 deliveries a year to supplement her other job as a jewelry designer. But you’re right that there aren’t many women captains on the larger commercial ships.

    5. Valancy Snaith*

      Historical reenactor. Like, a professional one. If I lived in a place where there existed a living history museum I would totally do it as a volunteer, but it would be my dream job for real.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        Me too! Lucy Worsley (Of the UK’s Historic Royal Palaces) basically has my dream job of dressing up and giving enthusiastic talks on social history.

        The pandemic has also triggered my first serious interest in academia. I’d love to be paid to research and write about all the weird/fascinating sociology of this time.

    6. Campfire Raccoon*

      Vegetable garden designer/teacher, mushroom farmer, writer/editor. I actually do all three for funsies and the idea of doing them as for pay or as a JOB kills the joy for me. So I keep the dreams of mushroom riches right where they belong, in my dreams.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I also want to be an interior designer and decorator as my dream career. Or a cultural anthropologist (if money weren’t a factor) or museum curator.

    9. Alexis Rosay*

      Radio producer. I know I’m not really suited to the career for temperamental reasons, and also I hear the hours are killer and as I get older that sounds less and less appealing…but whenever I hear radio internships advertised, I have a twinge of regret.

    10. awesome3*

      Grounded in reality, most likely other life would be youth librarian. Less likely I think but still something that interests me would be something in agriculture.

    11. Sherm*

      I fantasize about being a therapist. I find it fascinating that some people are actually so different from the persona they present to the world. (For example, the “life of the party” really wants to go home and read a book.) And as a therapist I’m sure you would have many glimpses into people’s real selves. It would be rewarding as well to improve people’s health. Despite this fantasy, though, I doubt I’d actually be that good at it. I’m introverted and would probably be exhausted from talking with people all day.

    12. Caboose*

      I would love to do interior design! Unfortunately, I also love having a reliable job and not needing to deal with clients, so software it is.

    13. Jay*

      Something in theater – actor, stage manager, producer. NOT DIRECTOR. In a cliche reversal, I have not always wanted to direct.

      Owning a bookstore.

      Writing.

    14. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Philanthropist! Writer of novels! Genetic detective (I didn’t know that was a thing until we watched a tv show about it.

    15. Unladen European Swallow*

      Meteorologist. Not so much on-the-TV kind, but the ones at NOAA that get to see all the data and predict oceanic conditions. I once looked up grad programs in meteorology on a wild whim and you have to take SO MUCH MATH as a prereq to apply! I’m not bad at math but it’s been decades since my last calc class in college. I’ll just look at radar maps instead, thankyouverymuch.

      1. cat wrangler*

        If you are on FB, I recommend you look up Rippeology (if you don’t mind swearing, either). He’s an amateur meteorologist, but soooo good. Educational and entertaining!

    16. Talvi*

      Nuclear physicist. Or astrophysicist.

      I loved physics and I was always good at math, I just really, REALLY hated grade 12 math… which put me off becoming a physics major in undergrad. (Whyever did trig have to start involving graphs and waves??? Triangles were fun!) Did an arts degree instead. I still have a fantasy of going back to university part-time to study physics just for the hell of it, though.

      (I became an archivist in the end!)

    17. Alianora*

      Medical illustrator. Requires a specific degree from a medical school. Only four universities in North America have programs. Fascinating to read about, very interesting, but not really for me.

      A couple reasons:
      – time investment into taking the prerequisite classes
      – not sure human anatomy/dissections/etc are for me
      – the art aspect wouldn’t be a roadblock, looking at the example portfolios of accepted students, but art right now is a relaxing escape for me, and I don’t want to make it my career. This is the main reason I decided not to go for it.

    18. Wanna be space pilot*

      Astronaut (but when my eyes went to crap with puberty, that dream was out)
      Fashion magazine editor but being a dorky introvert also killed that one
      My dad wanted me to be a lawyer, my mom wanted me to be an architect (or maybe it was vice versa?) I dunno.
      Next passion was computer animation – got my degree in computer science but coding? YUCK
      Determined that regardless of what I did, I wanted to make a lot of money so ended up going into business/finance. I use my money to do fun stuff on the side. shrug.

    19. Alllisson*

      Heavy Equipment operator
      Interior designer
      Librarian
      fitness instructor
      FBI agent
      anything involving sailing/boats :)

    20. Sam Yao*

      Airline mechanic. I come from a WASPy family that always just assumed everybody would go to a liberal arts college and I did, but my talents are much more mechanical than academic! I was a crappy student, didn’t know what I was doing with my life, and after some delicate tripping around the margins of librarianship eventually found myself doing office work, which I anticipate doing until death. But I love airplanes and I love fiddling with machinery, so given it all to do over again I’d go into planes (or cars, if I wanted to make any actual money)!

    21. Cute Li'l UFO*

      I would love to be a textile conservator. I think it’s absolutely fascinating, getting to see history up close and being able to conserve things that are older than I could ever hope to be. It’s just a difficult field to make a living in. So I live vicariously through videos, photos, and museums.

    22. Coenobita*

      Mine is – and I know this is weird – medical examiner/coroner. But I decided a long time ago that I did not want to do that enough to go to med school!

      1. Jasmine*

        I went to a talk by the local coroner a few years ago, and she made it seem utterly fascinating!

    24. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Economist or architectural historian. I am fascinated by economics and would love to learn more. If I ever win the lottery I’m going back to school to study it. I did get to work in an architecture firm as an archivist for several months, and then at an architecture school library, both of which were fun.

    25. Calamity Kate*

      Love this question! For me, it would probably be coroner, television news reporter, or florist.

    26. Well...*

      Tiger trainer (assuming the whole thing was somehow ethical, but hey this is fantasy life!)

      The Netflix series kind of ruined the fantasy for me, but taking care of big cats would be cool in theory.

    27. Anonforthis*

      I love to cook gourmet food, so a Michelin star chef, who never has to get up early in the morning, work late nights, holidays or weekends. Also never has to clean the kitchen or wash any dishes.

      Yeah I think we can see why this didn’t pan out.

    28. MissDisplaced*

      I always wished I could’ve been an archeologist like Indiana Jones (but certainly not a tomb raider). It seemed like such an exciting career: history, research, field work. But then I realized you needed a PhD and had to learn many dead languages!

    29. RussianInTeaxs*

      Hurricane chaser!
      Weirdly now I live in a super hurricane prone zone, go figure, which was not at all the case when I was growing up..

    32. AnonForThis*

      17th century natural scientist.

      Of course, I’d need to independently wealthy (cool), and turn male (less cool). But you’ve got a period when scientific knowledge was exploding, but the fields were small enough that one person could do significant work in multiple areas, while being totally self funded, and before the invention of the H index.

      In real life, I did a number of year of astrophysical research (which I see a couple of people have listed), followed by transitioning into a more technical position in the same field. I like the technical problems, but not so much publishing, ten year research plans, and management responsibilities. The work itself is cool, but as with many dream careers, getting to a permanent position is extremely difficult, even without wacky requirements like “living in the same country as my spouse”. Also, yes, so much math….

    34. Purple Penguin*

      I’d love to have a literary salon where people discuss, eat, drink and be merry, think Gertrude Stein’s salon in 1920s Paris.

      It wouldn’t be an impossible vocation but I probably would need to be independently wealthy.

    36. Disco Janet*

      Imagineer focusing on the Disney theme parks. I adore all the behind the scenes work that goes into planning the attractions, lands, design changes, etc. Growing up mostly pre-internet I assumed you had to be in engineering due to the name, and math and science aren’t my strong suit. But now I know there’s much more to it than that involving other fields like interior design and such, and wish I’d went for it!

    37. Jasmine*

      So that 2011 post is what got me to start thinking about a purposeful career plan… I’m now 6 weeks away from finishing my MLIS and becoming a qualified librarian!

    38. onyxzinnia*

      FBI behavioral analyst at Quantico a la Clarice Starling
      Musical theater actress on Broadway (alas I am a terrible singer and dancer)
      Cheesemonger with my own cheese shop (I still consider doing this)
      Investigative true crime reporter
      Travel agent

  35. KayEss*

    One of my colleagues received an email from a client about meeting scheduling that included “I am wide open whore I can do 10:30 on the 7th or the 9th” so we’re all starting the day with a good snicker.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I used to have my Word look out for “public” and “county”, two words I wrote about often and was always paranoid about misspelling.

      1. fairleigh*

        Ahahahaaha I use those words frequently too and I know which specific misspellings you are talking about. Mortification week indeed!

      3. Anonforthis*

        I used to use that word in place of “public” in a document that I had our interviewees read (for an editing/copywriting job so it made sense)…because it’s a legit word, it doesn’t get underlined when you do spell check in ms word. I was searching for their attention to detail. I would run a “track changes” when they sent the assignment back to see how many of them caught it. Not all of them :)

      4. Ron McDon*

        I read a job advert just this week that mentioned ‘dealing with the pubic’ as a part of the job… :)

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I once saw a (legit) job ad where one of the requirements was “must like talking about penises”. It was for a sex toy store, so fair enough.

    3. WellRed*

      I once posted a story to our website about a company “shitting” it’s operations to a new state. A reader emailed to let me know.

    5. Firecat*

      I once typed the notes and instead of sideline it auto corrected to sodomize.

      So it was fully titled- Sodomized Ideas: good but we will deep dive them later.

      1. Imprudence*

        If you use word it is possible to set up an exclusion dictionary. I type a lot of minutes, and mistyping the phrase “matters arising”. I have added the wrong word to the exclusion dictionary so it gets flagged as an error if I leave out that”I”.

  36. Mimmy*

    Two things today! First, I am thankful for the Mortification Week that we had a couple weeks ago. I just did something a bit mortifying on a zoom call at work. I tend to beat myself up when that happens–even for small things–but then I remember some of the stories that were shared here. It’s still very difficult to not continue to beat myself up (been that way my entire life), but it shows that it is possible to move on without the incident impacting your job or your supervisors’ opinion of you.

      1. Mimmy*

        Oh it was tame compared to the posts last week!

        At the end of a group session with our students and a small number of staff, the manager said something to the effect of “If anyone of my staff on line haven’t submitted their timesheet, please do so as soon as possible.”. She knew that person was me but didn’t want to name names (for obvious reasons). Well, stupid me blurted out a bit of an “oops”… cats out of the bag! I apologized later and she said it was no big deal.

  37. JustaTech*

    Networking at a virtual conference: Advice?

    I’m going to my first virtual conference next week and there are a bunch of networking sessions. I’ll say upfront that I’m not a great networker, I’m shy and introverted, so I usually end up standing on the edge of the room hoping for another awkward person to talk to.
    Obviously that’s not how networking works for a virtual conference, so does anyone have any advice on what virtual networking looks like and how to make it work?

    It sounds like it will be on video (rather than over a chat), so also does anyone have advice on how to look professional on camera at ~6am (yay time zones) for a femme person? Can I get away with mascara and a bold lipstick, or do I need to go for full-face?

    1. Nela*

      Virtual conferences usually have breakout groups for networking of 4-5 people in each group. Usually one of the people in the group takes the role of a “moderator” and starts asking questions of the other members. (Usually I’m the moderator, unless someone else calls dibs :)) Since there’s very little time, people will usually keep their intro short so everyone can have a chance to introduce themselves. Sometimes there’s a person that disregards timing guidelines, that’s when having someone act as a moderator is very useful.

      Makeup-wise, my role of thumb is “Don’t look like a corpse.” In my case that means kajal pencil and tinted lip balm, maaaybe mascara and a bit of concealer under the eyes. I’ve never done a full face makeup for the camera, people can’t see that much detail anyway.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I did this once at an event for women in tech and it was actually super easy. Don’t worry about the make-up– no one’s camera is that great. It was surprisingly chill– I went into rooms and just started chatting. “Hi, how are you, what do you do?” is a fine opener. “What brings you to this event?” for a peer.

      We also had speed-networking session, which were awesome. I think they identified us as candidates or recruiters, so if I was matched with a candidate we sometimes just chatted. I spent 4 minutes talking to a woman about pie.

      Some people came into the bigger sessions and just listened/observed. That’s ok, though you might be greeted. You can say, “I’m here to learn more about your company and what you do ” and let them talk.

      I will say that while I am a people person, I can be super shy. After the first hurdle, I found it very easy to just relax and chat. Remember that most people find this situation awkward!

    3. Belle of the Midwest*

      I was on the planning committee for an all-virtual conference in May–hopefully the sessions will be facilitated by people who are skilled in making it work. if it’s on Zoom, they might assign you to breakout rooms for a short period of time with a set of icebreaker (I hate that word–let’s call them connecting questions instead) questions so you can engage in some small talk before or after they have introductions in the main room. Hopefully the networking sessions will be organized by topic or special interest and you get to pick something you feel more engaged about to begin with.

      I have a very pale skin tone and found that I needed to go ahead and put on “color makeup”–eyeshadow, eyeliner, brow pencil, and blush–to keep from looking washed out on camera. do you have a way of checking yourself on camera before the conference? I would just do a practice run where you look at yourself on camera with full makeup, no makeup, and just the mascara and bold lipstick to see which you like best. if you can do that at 6:00am one morning before the conference, you’ll get a good idea of how it will work. (I have found that I look a whole lot different on camera at 9:00 am from what I do at, say. . .2:00pm!)

    4. Veronica*

      At the virtual conferences I’ve attended, I make a point of sending follow-up emails or messages to people after their talks. Basically, if I would have gone up to them after the presentation to ask a question or introduce myself, I send a brief email. It can just be a note saying you saw the presentation and enjoyed it. I also did this for poster sessions where they poster was available but there wasn’t a great way to interact with the author. It’s been helpful for retaining connections with people I usually only see once per year at conferences. As a presenter, I would love it if I got something like this. Often the feedback you get is very limited.

  38. B*

    My father passed away a few days ago after having cancer, and I have about 2.5 months of sick leave built up (I’m not in the US) so my doctor has given me a medical certificate (on mental health grounds) for the next six weeks because I’m just not up to going into work right now.

    Would it be wrong of me to use some of this time to go on a vacation and see two of my best friends who live a few hours away that I haven’t seen since the beginning of the pandemic and go away somewhere with them? I feel like some people would say it is wrong to use sick leave for anything other than being physically sick, but my mental health is a mess right now and some time with friends and a vacation/break would REALLY help me right now. Sitting in my apartment is doing me no good, and my friends are happy for me to come.

    Thoughts?

    2. Box of Kittens*

      Absolutely not wrong – go take a break! If that’s what you need right now for your mental health, that’s what you need. So sorry for your loss.

    3. Elenna*

      Mental health is also health, it’s perfectly reasonably to use sick leave to deal with it! Not to mention that at the request of your doctor you’re already using your sick leave to work on mental health, it only makes sense to do that in a way that will actually help.

      1. ronda*

        this.
        you can tell coworkers you went to stay with friends for support,

        but probably not that you went to the beach and partied (or whatever else they would think of as too much fun)

        Sorry about your dad. take care of yourself.

    5. The Rural Juror*

      DO IT. You don’t need to tell anyone at work that you’re going or even anyone else who doesn’t immediately need to know your whereabouts. Go recharge and enjoy the company of people you miss.

      I’m sorry about your father. Wish you all the best.

    6. Carol*

      So sorry for your loss.

      Many people realize serious bereavement (particularly after what might have been a long illness) can be a very long and difficult process and that you’re not lying in bed motionless the entire time (and that it wouldn’t be healthy to do so). I would keep any public pictures to a minimum because there can always be that snoopy, judgy colleague or friend, but…this seems like a natural thing, to visit friends for comfort after such a serious loss.

    7. hoggums*

      yes, it would definitely be ok to do something that will help improve your mental health! that’s what your time off is for!

    8. Trivia Newton-John*

      I am so sorry that you lost your father. Please, go see your friends. You need them for your support right now. HUGS to you.

    9. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Thoughts?

      Go.

      On a detailed level, spending time with your friends will put some life back into you, which is what sick time is for. It’s medically excused. Your mental health is a big component of your overall health. If it helps, think of your trip as a wake.

      Truly, go. You only get so much time on this rock.

    10. LDN Layabout*

      Do it, but be careful about social media etc.

      I’m not saying this because I agree with anyone who might be an arsehole about it, but you don’t need that additional stress right now or ever, really.

    11. LKW*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. Take the break. You don’t have to tell people that you’re visiting friends. You can say that there is a lot more to deal with than expected and you’ll be out for a defined time.

      Grief is hard. It will hit you when you least expect it and you just have to ride it out. Don’t set expectations that you “should be over it” at a certain point. It took me close to a year to feel normal after my dad died. But eventually I did return to a more normal state.

    12. Massive Dynamic*

      Heck no, go see your friends!! I’m very sorry for your loss. When I was in your shoes a few years ago, I wish I’d have taken more time off as well. Best wishes to your family.

    13. Another JD*

      Totally fine. I’d just make sure you have some private space to go cry and sleep when you need. And perhaps a code word with your friends that means you just need some time to yourself.

    14. RagingADHD*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and a getaway with supportive friends sounds like an excellent use of your time. The whole point of the leave is to help you process and feel better, and as you say, sitting home alone isn’t going to help with that.

    15. beach read*

      B, My condolences on the loss of your Father. Taking care of yourself at a time like this is so important. You have the time coming to you AND the Doctor signed off on it. Grief is very personal and different for everyone and what helps you in the healing process should be too. If that includes time away with good friends in a sunny, warm or cold, cozy place, that is what you should do.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Actually this is a very good and very wise decision.

      Just be aware that not everyone will get how wise this is and be selective about who you inform.

      Technically speaking there is no difference between this and if you broke your leg (fate forbid) and had to stay with friends until you could move around better. No one would ever think you were on vacation in the latter scenario.
      Sometimes we need our peeps to get to a better spot.

    17. allathian*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      Please take the vacation you need for your mental health.

      That said, it would perhaps be prudent not to share too much about your leave at work if you’re afraid of being judged for taking the leave. If you have coworkers who follow you on any social media, maybe refrain from posting vacation pictures.

  39. Willow*

    I started out this week telling my boss, once again, that I am burned out. First she blamed me for the situation, and implied that my marital status (single, no kids) may play a role. Then she told me that she had seen for the last two years that I was burned out (I told her several times), and didn’t do anything because she hoped that the problem would go away. After telling me that my colleagues find me difficult to work with (untrue) because I am “prickly”, and berating me several times to tell her how this could be fixed, I finally talked her into a two-week delay at which point I must tell her how I will fix my burnout. The answer, of course, is that I will find myself a new job because no one should put up with this crap. But if anyone has any suggestions on what I could tell her that will get her off my back while I conduct my job search, I’d love to hear them.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Can you ask for some time off or say you need that for burn out? Or, ask to delegate some stuff, mix in some easier days with harder days, take on a more fun project, etc?

      I’m sorry you’re going through this and wish you the best of luck in your job search! I have a team member that came to me about burn out recently (not exactly job related, just she hasn’t taken a lot of time off and has had some personal life things going on) and asking for some time off in a few months. We encourage more time than she was originally asking plus some time sooner and are reviewing if there were job related contributing factors.

      1. Neon Dreams*

        The slight about being single and childless makes me roll my eyes so hard. I’m sorry she’s not listening to you. It’s her job to help you succeed in this role.

    2. Carol*

      Well, I think the only thing you can really do is stop letting her pass the buck to you, and make it her responsibility to change your workload, since it IS her job and that’s the problem. If she brings up whether you’re married or not (??) again just say “that’s not really relevant here, what’s relevant is that x project takes y amount of time, routine task z takes a amount of time, etc. etc. and we need to figure out what’s realistic and sustainable to complete in a work week.” If she reacts negatively to that (sounds likely), just say “you insisted I tell you how to fix my burnout and this is the only logical solution.”

    3. LuckySophia*

      Your boss sounds like an ass, so I don’t know if this will actually help…but maybe go back to her with”The first step to solving a problems to identify the problem” and tell her you are working hard to identify the specific conditions that are causing you the burnout, so that you can then try to come up with a list of specific solutions. In other words, if you just go back to her and say “work overload is causing burnout”…you won’t get any traction. If you can, document the specifics, e.g., “The website updates have to be completed by 10 a.m. every Monday, but I get the input late, which means I am working every Sunday evening until 11 p.m. to ensure they can go live by 10 am Monday. The late input and late hours are contributing to my burnout. I have three ideas for how to ensure input is received on time….” .

    4. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      Does your company have an EAP you could use? I work at a large company that provides EAP services, including 5 free counseling sessions. Or does your insurance provide a discount on counseling services such as betterhelp?

      Your boss super duper sucks.

      1. Neon Dreams*

        I second this? I’m using counseling that I was referred to by my EAP. The EAP company offers a discount to betterhelp by being a member.

    6. fairleigh*

      Can you turn it into less of a personal conversation and talk more about how your work is affected? Your boss seems like a jerk, but maybe talking very dispassionately and detached is a language she can better understand.

      E.g. “I am finding it hard to do the TPS reports because I’ve been spending so much time on the ABC investigation. Can we bring in Jane to do the TPS reports, or would you prefer I spend less time on ABC?”

    7. Zephy*

      The answer, of course, is that I will find myself a new job because no one should put up with this crap. But if anyone has any suggestions on what I could tell her that will get her off my back while I conduct my job search, I’d love to hear them.

      I think you answered your own question, here. Probably the magic words to get her out of your hair for good go something like “I am resigning from this position and my last day will be X.”

    8. Twisted Lion*

      I dont know on what planet she thinks your marital status has to do with your workload. If she brings it up again I would say it like that as well.

      Are there projects/duties that you have been doing that someone else can do/should be doing? I ran into this at a job where I became the go-to for everything and my boss refused to distribute the work to 3 other people. I tried a few times to point out things that needed to be moved to someone else. You can make a table with everything you are doing plus how much time each duty takes. Maybe a visual representation would help her. Then you can suggest that it be moved to another person who is not as overworked as you. Try to put the ownership back on her as the manager.

      But honestly, the personal attacks sound horrible and I hope you can find a new job soon.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I mean, everyone knows that having kids is so soothing that you can do more at work with less stress, as you are calmed by their presence in your life.

        Maybe tell her you’ve almost got the quick Vegas wedding sorted out, but you’re having trouble figuring out how to acquire a child in a couple of weeks without resorting to kidnapping. A pregnancy takes nine months, and that’s too long a timescale to be useful for your current burnout.

        1. banoffee pie*

          haha yeah, looking after kids on top of the job would obviously be the answer to burnout…no, wait…

    9. A Brew Yet*

      I’m sorry, but I don’t think you can take this seriously. “Berating” you, insulting your life choices, expecting YOU to solve your workplace burnout (emphasis on workplace). How can you possibly support this with any kind of real response. Don’t even try! I say you go to your boss with a list of completely crazy suggestions or requests. If you’re going out, go out in blaze of glory kid. Some suggestions: a water feature for the office (so soothing), a pie your boss contest (builds comradery), snack bin or fruit bowl replenished by the office (so heathy), a really good standing desk (reduces stress). Ask for something totally off the wall and then get out.

    10. Tomato Frog*

      I know you’re mostly just trying to appease her while you job search, but it might be worth a try to actually get something out of this obnoxious assignment. Maybe work from home days, if you don’t already have? A no-meeting, no-email Fridays where you’ll focus on existing tasks without interruption? Unloading a task that someone else can handle?

      Five minute meditation breaks every hour? In which you put on headphones, close your eyes, and visualize a work life without your horrible boss?

      I wish you luck finding a new job.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      As gently as possible- one thing to do is don’t talk about the burnout. If you mention it that will trigger her conversation over it. She is a proven a$$ in the way she handles the conversation, don’t get yourself any more proof if you can avoid it. Yes, a survival mode type move. But it might help.

      If you do use EAP you can drag out the appointments so that can be your answer for the duration of the appointments. “I have another EAP appointment coming up!”

      To entertain yourself you could –IN YOUR PRIVATE THOUGHTS ONLY-make up factitious responses.
      “I wiped the hard drive on my computer, I feel so much better.”
      “The industrial-sized shredder will be here next week.”
      “I dunno how it happened but everything disappeared from my Outlook calendar and I am doing so much better.”
      “Remember all those pesky clients/customers we had? They won’t be a bother any more. I fixed it for you.”
      “You know the main program we all use and it was so old and encumbered? That problem is gone now.”

      Even dark humor can help you take back your power/autonomy. It can help a person remember that this is a part of life but not all of life and not to let her wear you down any further. I have gone as far as telling myself, “I will not wear the boss’ worries for the boss. It is up to her to carry her own worries.” I never realized I needed to tell myself this. But I did need to tell me this. And it’s amazing what an eye-opener this statement can be.

  40. Anon123*

    We are in our busy season and are working 12+ hour days, 6 days a week. People are burnt out. Any time someone tries to bring up an issue or make a suggestion, GM responds with “no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to work here” instead of actually listening and trying to come up with a solution or at the very least empathizing. Basically any time a comment or concern is raised it is met with a “well we don’t need you anyway” attitude. GM is obviously not concerned with turnover as we lose multiple full time staff after each busy season with no intervention or attempts at employee retention. Every year it is harder on those of us who stay because we essentially have to start from scratch with new coworkers and can’t build a strong team with actual experience. I’m at a loss on what to do here and would appreciate advice on how to talk about this in a way that may actually bring about positive change.

    1. fairleigh*

      Alison’s standard advice is to push together as a group, which may help. But also people are already voting with their feet and they don’t seem to care, so that may not help. Best advice is maybe to follow the leavers.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        This.
        The boss is making a rational decision. He seems to have no problem replacing the people who leave every year. Unless your industry gets totally upset due to Covid, etc, and it becomes impossible to find new employees, he’s going to keep doing this.

    2. WellRed*

      Yes, band together. In my fantasy, it would be to walk off the job after the conversation goes nowhere.

    3. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      The GM has zero interest in changing anything. Please start searching for a new job.

    4. cubone*

      this is a great example of “when people show you who they are, believe them”. They’ve made it quite explicit how they feel – you are disposable and they have no interest in reflecting on the harmful environment they’ve created. YOU and your colleagues might be invested in making positive changes, but they have explicitly said they are not. You can still communicate how this impacts the work, but don’t waste your energy trying to get them to WANT there to be changes for the better. Their words have made it clear they don’t care. Believe them.

    5. TPS Reporter*

      Definitely agree with finding a new job. In the meantime can you just stop working at 40 hours? Would they really fire you and are you really afraid of that? You can say you did as much as you could within that work week and if they want you to re-prioritize tasks they should let you know what’s important. If management is not willing to put in the work to support you do not keep taking it all on.

  41. fairleigh*

    Just found out a candidate I didn’t hire has been hired by a close partner and I’ll be collaborating with her on a project. First meeting is this afternoon. What do I say?

    Background: looked good on paper, interviewed well, but she made a lot of sloppy mistakes on the technical exercise. I don’t think the partner uses a technical exercise. I was professional in my dealings with her but I had to keep stretching my notice period with her (HR hoops took forever) and gave a fairly pro forma rejection, nothing too personalized and warm and fuzzy.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      “It’s good to see you. PartnerCo is a great company, how are you settling in?” Or anything else about them and their new role — you shouldn’t mention anything at all about not hiring them or that process etc.

      1. ferrina*

        +1

        If she brings up that you didn’t hire her, you can be very vague “Yeah, it was a tough decision. We had a lot of great candidates. So about [OTHER TOPIC]….”

    4. fairleigh*

      Okay, thanks all! I am usually a fan of acknowledging the elephant in the room, but seems like the consensus here is not to.

      1. Kara*

        Absolutely not. This is not an elephant in the room. This is another elephant from another room that you don’t need to bring into this one.

  42. BlueberryFields*

    Can we talk about that Forbes article, “Want to work 9-to-5? Good luck building a career”? I have many (incredulous) thoughts.

    The first two paragraphs: “I recently fired my first-ever direct report. Although he was low-energy, uninspired, and an awful speller, what ultimately led him to the ax was his insistence on boundaries.

    He would come into the office at nine every morning, leave at five, and be inaccessible anytime before and after. Regardless of deadlines or passion projects, his workday was determined not by his work, but by his hours.”

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This article is infuriating because there’s so many good observations buried within a really tone deaf framing.

      Yes, we hustled after the great recession because we were *terrified*. I put college on hold because my friends graduating with masters degrees were working at dunkin donuts en masse and I decided if I was going to do that I might as well just…work at dunkin donuts (not literally, for anonymity’s sake, but I decided to build work experience before saddling myself with debt). I worked ridiculous hours at low paying jobs to barely pay my rent because just being employed steadily seemed like a miracle. My friends who were lucky enough to enter their long term careers at that stage did even crazier things because they knew ten people were ready to take their place if they didn’t show up hard enough.

      And we all burnt the eff out. The pendulum didn’t swing, the other shoe dropped like a ton of bricks. It wasn’t sustainable for an entire generation to push themselves that hard. People haven’t gotten lazier, they’ve gotten smarter and less desperate.

      Also: “And what’s more, this “balance” implies a strict tradeoff between the two constituent parts, a polarizing schedule of on/off. At work, you’re all on. After work, you’re all off. But this mindset is problematic in that it puts an undue amount of pressure on us to be all on when, in reality, sometimes we can’t be.”

      Yeah, that’s my preferred workflow. I have ADHD, it’s hard for me to focus for eight hours. Allowing myself some wiggle room to get distracted or off task during the day knowing I can pick it up at night if I have to works fine for me. That’s a choice I made. If people have children or other responsibilities at home they may not make that choice. That’s okay too.

      There could be so many good conversations here but instead I just want to shake this article writer and hire the poor guy that got fired for setting reasonable boundaries.

      1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

        “This article is infuriating because there’s so many good observations buried within a really tone deaf framing.” Yes. These are the words I did not find for my response to reading this!

      2. Spencer Hastings*

        Yeah, the article seemed to be based on a weird straw-man reading of what “work-life balance” means.

        “It’s not a strict binary! You can’t be 100% on at work! Checkmate!”

        …Yeah, so? We should always be partially-on outside of work hours? Or what?

        My perspective is somewhat biased because I work for a CPA firm — the hours are long during tax season, and even at other times of year, I might be working on a project such that it makes sense for me to work more hours. But I don’t think this is incompatible with work-life balance! When I’m *not* working, my time is my own, and that’s what’s important to me. It seems like the author disagrees with that.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Right, sometimes long hours even make more sense for work-life balance because you just want to wrap up that one thing that you know you’ll stress about all night if you don’t…but that’s so situational.

    3. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      It was horrible. I like having boundaries to keep my work & personal life separate. I wouldn’t work for an employer who expected you to be available 24/7. Yikes.

    4. NotRealAnonForThis*

      My take on the article: this speaks more about the mananger.

      Second take: F.T.S. All the way to heck and back.

      Third take: I do know (knew?) someone who did build a career and was constantly a company man first, to the detriment of at least one marriage, relationship with children, etc. When he died very unexpectedly in a freak accident at age 50, do you know what his death was worth to the company? A single moment of silence at the annual exec retreat. Takeaway from those of us present who knew him well? Ain’t worth it.

    5. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      I can’t imagine there are that many people who truly insist on 9-5, Monday through Friday, no exceptions ever. I think what people push back against is being asked to work more than they’re being paid for, which we should do! It should be understood that if you have to put in a few hours on a Saturday, you’re going to take those hours off elsewhere in the pay period.

      There was a post earlier this year — I don’t remember it exactly, but the question was about being exempt vs non-exempt — where Allison said something to the effect that it’s very messed up that we, as a society, have decided it’s a status symbol to work more and not get paid for it. That’s what I think about anytime someone starts extolling the virtues, or even the “grow up, that’s the way it is” of working 40+ hours. Science has already told us that even 40 hours is too much for us; why would I continue pressing people to work more than 40 hours?! We should be trying to change the narrative, not perpetuate it.

    6. not a doctor*

      I guess I would have gotten fired from that place, then! I don’t turn off the computer at five ON THE DOT or anything, and if something emergent comes up I’ll stick around — but for the most part, I’m putting in my 40 hours, and good luck trying to get a hold of me outside of them.

    7. Malarkey01*

      I like that an article like this comes out at the same time that almost every industry out there is bemoaning the shortage of employees and the great resignation and trying to find the cause. This pandemic hit at the same time as we have some generational shifts, educational and larger demographic changes in the US. It’s a confluence of a several things that impact work and attitude changes around work and it seems like some managers/employers aren’t seeing the big train coming down the track.

    8. cactus lady*

      My jaw was on the floor at this: “A hunger percolated—work for work’s sake—and as millennials graduated and began their careers, they were guided by two values: a laser-focused desire to do what they love, and the misconception that doing what they loved meant working all the time.”

      Does this person not realize that we felt like we HAD TO work all the time and monetize, well, ANYTHING we could, because there were no jobs and the ones there were didn’t pay us enough to live on?

  43. Third Generation Nerd*

    I work for a financial services company that is trying to increase diversity in both employees and clients. I’ve been working with the in house recruiter on her plan for hiring apprentices. This position requires the ability to speak confidentially with many people, to be a persuasive story-teller, and to successfully operate in a highly regulated environment. She suggested a weed-out question: What do you enjoy doing when you’re not working or in school? “Because if they say they play [popular tabletop role playing game] we’ll know they’re an introvert and asocial and not suited for this position.”

    I spoke up right then, and asked her what she thought playing the game entailed, and she admitted that she was just going off a stereotype and assumed they live in fantasy-land.

    So I told her about the knowledge, skill, relationship savvy, and nuance required to run a successful game. How groups who play often have deep and lasting relationships, cooperate on both in game and life objectives, and in actual fact a group leader has to be well versed in the regulations and rules, and apply them with integrity. Also not all such gamers are introverts.

    Basically, someone who runs a successful game is almost perfectly suited for the apprenticeship. Furthermore, there is a HUGE untapped market for our industry in the sorts of people who play these games – they are dismissed by the folks who are usually hired for the same reasons she wanted to dismiss them as applicants. Seriously, the number of tech workers who play golf (the usual means of bonding with clients) vs. table top games? Give me a break.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      OMG what a jerk! My son and his friends all DND and put it on their college app/resumes! It’s a huge thing at their STEM-oriented (very large) high school. They take turns being DM and spend a TON of time planning campaigns. This winter they’re all going on a camping trip for a forest fantasy campaign in an actual forest. Recruiters love to see that sort of team work, initiative, creativity, and leadership. It also helps them be detail-oriented, give well-thought out answers on the fly, and speak in front of groups. Your hiring manager is a turd.

      1. Campfire Raccoon*

        I’m going to add to this because I’m weirdly fired up. When the kids had to remote learn last year and couldn’t see each other in person, they organized 2 to 3 online sessions a week using discord and dndbeyond to store characters/maps/items/monsters. They adapted to working/socializing from home faster than most adults I know.

      2. Third Generation Nerd*

        I have to jump in to say the hiring manager actually listened, HEARD what I said, and even was on board with the idea of doing an event like sponsoring a tabletop night for a recruiting event. I was just stunned to realize what implicit bias was there, and how it clearly shaped the candidate pool.

    3. Anonymous here*

      I don’t get why people think someone who plays games with other people is asocial. Do the people they’re playing with not count?

      We recently hired someone (a white man and it’s pretty obvious he comes from money) at my job and he had “golf” as a hobby on his resume, and brought it up again when asked about himself in the interview. I kind of got the sense that it’s worked out for him to bring it up in his past jobs, but it fell a little flat with our current office, which is mostly ethnic minorities and women (hiring a white man actually increased our diversity; we hadn’t had one on the team before.) I mean, we didn’t count it against him, and he’s a good coworker, but it wasn’t the bonding point for us that he expected.

    4. it's me*

      One really just can’t assume “nerdy” = asocial/shy/introverted. Don’t believe me, just attend one day of DragonCon.

  44. Eponymous*

    Is there a good benchmark for how much work one should be doing at the next level up before getting a promotion?

    I’m currently at my company’s highest “field” title, but for nearly two years now I’ve been doing most of the work (>80%) of the “junior project manager” title. I had a meeting with my supervisor earlier this week to discuss what I would need to do to get this promotion, and he seems to think that I need to be doing close to 100% of the JrPM level work to be promoted. From my perspective that means I’m doing higher-level work for lower-level pay. I’ve spoken with a SrPM with whom I work closely and he thinks I should be promoted now and trained in on the last ~20%, but unfortunately this SrPM doesn’t really get a say in promotions.

    My supervisor is hung up on a few particular tasks that make up the 20% and I had to point out that a) I do at least half of that 20% for projects from other PMs and b) he doesn’t assign me projects where that 20% is applicable so it’s not really fair to judge me on this.

    1. ferrina*

      Is there a benchmark? Not really. It varies. There is no hard and fast rule though.

      I think the real question is- what will it take for your supervisor to promote you? You need to sit down and spell it out- “I’m really interested in the Junior PM role. What will it take for me to be able to move in to that position?” Try to get a list of tasks, metrics and a timeline. If it’s something where you need your supervisor to assign you something, see if it counts if you doing the task for the SrPM while the SrPM oversees your work. Document the conversation by sending a follow up email of the benchmarks and bullet points. If you see an opportunity to do a necessary, bring it to your supervisor. If they say no, ask why not (not as a challenge, but to get more information for what kind of opportunities you should keep an eye on).

      That’s assuming your supervisor is reasonable. But something in your story tells me there’s more going on here. Watch out for sexism/racism/agism- are the standards he is holding you to the same that he holds everyone to? Do you really have faith that he’ll follow through?
      Ultimately, you may need to switch companies in order to get the title/pay that you deserve. Unfortunately that is incredibly common. At least doing the higher level tasks will help build your resume!
      Good luck!

      1. Eponymous*

        It was at my half-year review earlier this month where I brought up this promotion, and the meeting earlier this week was specifically to discuss it. I do have a list of tasks and a timeline, but it’s hard to put a number/assign metrics to them. My supervisor has scheduled a follow-up meeting for several weeks from now, and I’m going to start documenting everything I do that’s JrPM-level, particularly if it’s for projects for which my supervisor is not the PM.

        I think my supervisor is fairly reasonable. I don’t think he’s sexist or ageist, or intentionally malicious in anyway. He’s just… milquetoast? inadvertently unaware? unintentionally limited? E.g., he just didn’t consider that just because I don’t do X for his projects that it doesn’t mean that I don’t do X for other PMs’ projects.

        However, I do feel that he holds me to a higher set of standards than some of his other supervisees, but I think it’s because of general competence and not because of age or gender. E.g., some slightly-more-senior colleagues publish final reports full of minor grammar and punctuation errors, but my supervisor will point out similar errors in my draft reports. It seems like at this point those colleagues have proven that they just can’t do any better so they aren’t worth correcting, but I can do better so I need to be reminded if I don’t.

        And I know he’ll follow through on this, because I’m going to pester him until he does.

    2. Anonymous Hippo*

      IDK what the norms would be, but I don’t think it’s fair for someone to have to take on any of the higher level job in order to be promoted. Demonstrate the ability to work at that level, sure, through projects or helping out with something or what not, but to take it on permanently, that just sucks.

  45. Cat Mom*

    I just found out that I didn’t get the internal transfer I applied for. It was several grades above my current grade, so it was a stretch. Do I ask about how the internal process works, or just thank the HR person for the opportunity and move on?

    1. ferrina*

      I would ask about what I could do to be a stronger candidate next time. It’s a pretty common question to ask, really.
      I wouldn’t ask how the process works at this point- that’s really question for when you are about to apply or when you have just applied. It would seem a bit odd at this stage.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I’d thank them and ask for any feedback on steps you could take to be a better fit for the role in the future.

  46. Oscar's Trash Can*

    As a result of a reshuffle, I’m soon to be promoted to be in charge of my current department. One employee that I’ll be supervising works alongside me, but our current workstream is more parallel rather than interacting directly so I was less in the loop about his day to day. I am aware of a lot of his grievances with the company so far – basically he’s working long hours and wants a raise because of that and is feeling burned out. In addition, our titles were changed to be more streamlined with the rest of the company, and on paper, it looks like a pretty significant demotion (even though the new title makes more sense for the role he had).

    Now that I’m being promoted, I’m made aware of all of this feedback and areas for growth he really needs to tackle before that’s possible (think high quality, but low efficiency which is the main culprit of his late nights). Unfortunately, because we sort of operated without direct supervision, no one actually gave him any direct feedback on his areas for improvement even though he’s been working here for two years, so he hasn’t been given a fair chance to actually act on that. He’s been asking for a raise and has just had the question avoided rather than anyone tell him that he needs to improve areas of his work before that’s even a possibility. I think that he has a very different view of his work output than his peers do, and I can’t blame him for that since no one has given him any indication that they have concerns.

    I don’t know where to start managing him because I feel like I have to dump some harsh truths on him all at once and while the feedback is accurate and justified, it should have been given to him over a year ago rather than now -any advice on how to message that – validating his situation while not watering down feedback he needs to hear?

    1. LKW*

      Do you know the statements to be true? If not, can I recommend approaching the situation from a relatively fresh position? Since you’re receiving this feedback third hand, can you have a relatively open and honest dialog with him and say “Look, this is the feedback I’ve been handed, but I don’t know if this is or is not reality. What’s your perspective?” then listen.

      And the last manager may have had some chip on her shoulder or was conflict avoidant or whatever. So instead of assuming that the last manager was right – maybe take a step back. Tell him the things he needs to demonstrate to move up. And then discuss what kind of framework would enable him to meet those objectives and you to coach him so that he’s not missing the mark.

    2. MacGillicuddy*

      This stood out for me: “ low efficiency which is the main culprit of his late nights”

      Is this person putting in extended hours? Is he expected to keep up the pace? There’s a “diminishing returns” aspect to working really long hours. Nobody runs a marathon the same way they run a sprint. I’d look at the bigger picture here.

  47. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    What a difference a week makes.

    Everyone who advised me on getting Team Processing to include my team earlier in the process, your advice seems to have worked. I was involved in both issues that were troubleshot this week inside of 4 hours of the issue arising–a far cry from 18-24 hours that pass normally! And that improvement is before I could even get the email-group suggestion evaluated by Management. Thank you all.

    I’ve also been approached by another company about a role that I’ve been lobbying my current employer to create for the last 8+ years–half of the development I have been doing and half mainstream development. Such a position would allow me to leverage my niche development experience and knowledge to help the mainstream team to integrate it more effectively, and to help both teams avoid reinventing the wheel when unnecessary. Interviews are still being performed, but even if it doesn’t pan out, just being able to make my case to an interested and motivated party is a shot in the arm! (That it’s a nominal *and* effective promotion is a plus, too.) (Personally, it would also mean that I could show experience for mainstream programming jobs after 2-3 years and not be forced to find the niche programming if I found myself in a position where I needed a new job next week.)

  48. AMD2*

    I hired a housecleaner from Care.com and interviewed her, and at the interview we agreed she would work for ~8 hours every Wednesday for four weeks. I offered $20 an hour, which is slightly higher than I want to but I emphasized I was looking for someone who could work independently without micromanaging to help get my house more organized while I was caring for my kids.

    Her first day was Wednesday. She confessed she has untreated ADHD and other mental disorders. She accomplished in seven hours what I could probably have done in two, needed a lot of micromanaging, and could not remember general instructions like “Put all the electronics on this table” or “Don’t put plastic in the bottom rack of the dishwasher.” She said she really needs a detailed to-do list to stay on track, and, flustered at the time, I agreed to do that going forward.

    Do I need to try to make this work?

    Complicating things, she talked literally every second she was here, interrupting and talking over my children at times, and told me she has an extensive history of sexual abuse and trauma and this job is the first thing she’s gotten off the couch for in weeks, and she found it very therapeutic that I was “such a good listener.” (I didn’t have any choice! I tried a couple times to say I needed to talk to my kids/focus on writing and literally couldn’t get a word in.) I don’t want to give her a bad mental health blow, but I also don’t know if I could take another eight hours of her presence even if she was doing it for free.

    If I tell her I don’t want her back, what would be tactful wording to use? I know I should have addressed the problems while she was here, but her constant personal revelations about being molested, raped, and abused were throwing me off and making it hard to talk about the job. I don’t want to sound heartless – if she was a friend, I’d want to be there for her and support her, but she’s literally a stranger who’d been in my house for only a few hours!

    1. JB*

      You don’t owe this woman anything. I don’t know if Care.com has a policy on contracts and breaking contracts so you may want to read up on that. Otherwise, I would contact this woman and either say that this isn’t working out or lie a little bit and tell her that your situation has changed and you will not be able to use her services any longer and wish her luck.

      1. No Sleep Till Hippo*

        Honestly, it’s not even a lie. “I thought I wanted you to work for me, turns out I don’t.” Situation = changed.

        Adding my voice to the chorus of NOPE here – whatever this woman’s issues may be, the situation isn’t working *for you* (and her issues are her won to figure out – not yours!). That’s a good enough reason to say “Thanks, but no thanks” and move on. You don’t owe her anything more than basic courtesy and pay for whatever work she’s already completed. You’re absolutely in the right to find someone else who will better fit your needs.

    2. CatCat*

      You do not need to make this work. You don’t need to go into a lot of detail. “I am terminating our housecleaning agreement. Unfortunately, it’s not a good fit. Reflecting on last Wednesday, I need someone who can work more independently without detailed lists and with less conversation throughout the day.”

      If you want to add in anything more personal to address her struggles, you can. “I’m sorry for all the struggles and trauma that you have had. Unfortunately, I am not equipped to provide support on that front. Check out RAINN (give website and phone number), which provides help for victims of sexual assault and is in a better position to provide trained support or point you toward appropriate resources.”

    3. Caboose*

      Noooo, you do not need to try to make this work! You hired her for one day, and she did not work out.

      I’d just text or email to let her know that you won’t need her services again. Or just let the contact die out! You had such limited contact with her, and if you need someone to help reduce chaos in your life, she’s really not the person for that job.

    4. WellRed*

      No! No! Omg. I’m sorry she’s got a tough life but not only is it not your problem, she Didn’t. Do. The. Work. And your kids deserve better. And even a friend only gets so much if a pass on treating everyone as their therapist.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      Nope. You also don’t owe her any explanation. If you feel you need to say something just be vague and say “I no longer need your services.” Don’t open the door to a big discussion. You don’t want her there and talking about it makes it sound like you’re open to the idea of keeping her on.

    7. Chc34*

      You don’t need to make this work, but I also want to point out that your pay rate seems a little low for more experienced workers, so you might also consider if you’re going to get what you’re paying for.

    8. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Oh good lord no. Echoing the other sentiments. You hired her to do a specific job and paid her for the privilege of playing unwitting therapist. Please end the contract professionally and if Care.com has a review/flag system please do let them know.

    9. Nesprin*

      Nope! if she’d flubbed visit 10, you might cut her some slack, but if she flubs visit one while disclosing her history of sexual assault (ack), you hire someone else.

    10. Dark Macadamia*

      I’d just say something like “I know we discussed giving you a more detailed to-do list, but on further reflection I really do need someone who can manage all that independently so I don’t think this will be a good fit.” Wish her well but don’t even mention the personal stuff.

      It’s okay that you were thrown off in the moment – the oversharing alone would be super uncomfortable without the added circumstances that she was in your home, in front of your kids, and working for you at the time!

  49. DJ Abbott*

    Are there any Customer Service jobs that pay more than $20 an hour?
    I was bored in my pre-pandemic analyst job and laid off just before the shutdown. This gave me time to realize I need a lot more interaction with people, and I’m trying to move into either mid-level admin or Customer Service. Meanwhile I’m working part-time at a grocery store deli. It’s not a good place to work. No benefits, no raises, not even a lunch break on a seven hour shift, so I want out!
    I had my first interview since the shut down for a front desk position with regular hours and full benefits. It pays $16-$19 an hour. I was making $28 at my old job.
    Is this the best I can expect? Is there a way to move into a job working more with people that would pay more?
    Thanks! I have to work this afternoon, so I’ll come back this evening and see what you all say.

    1. fairleigh*

      Don’t know what kind of analyst you were, but lots of tech support people, or people who help tailor a company’s product to specific customers, make bank.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      It depends on your definition of a customer service job. For example, a Customer/Client Success Manager is very CS oriented (along with a lot of strategic work) and pays more than that in the postings I’ve seen. A tech related support role will pay more than non-tech one typically.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The more specific domain knowledge you can bring to bear, the more likely that you’ll be tier 2 or tier 3 support, and therefore can command a better salary.

    4. Littorally*

      Yep. I work in a discount broker-dealer (retail investing), and our entry-level customer service folks currently start at $22/hr, and it goes up quickly from there if you get onto the right track. Caveat is that you do need to be able to pass a bunch of licensing exams if you want to get onto the well-paying track.

    5. Anon this time*

      In my experience, $17/hour is the rate for someone who knows how to take care of customers but can’t necessarily answerer all their questions, and $22/hour for someone who loves working with customers and can answer all their questions.

      The last company I did customer service for, I started as the former and rose to the latter. I felt I was underpaid, but having product knowledge definitely translates into high pay.

    6. Alianora*

      I’m in a customer service-adjacent job at a university and make more than $20/hour. There are quite a few jobs like this at my university. My particular department provides a specific administrative service to faculty, so our “customers” are all internal, but there are also jobs working with students or prospective students, service centers on campus, and even positions that assist companies working with the university. It’s a good environment if you like helping people. The job titles are not going to have “customer service” in the title, but you can find them by reading through the descriptions.

      I do have to mention that I live in a very HCOL area, so depending on where you live, the universities near you may not pay as much.

    7. Caboose*

      I’d guess that customer/client support, specifically for a software company, would work well for you! Jobs where you’re helping support other companies are far more likely to pay well.

    8. Eden*

      I have a friend who made more as a Patient Access Representative, but I’m sure this depends on your geography. $20 in our HCOL area is probably not as good as $16 in many parts of the country.

    9. Skeeder Jones*

      I think it’s really going to depend a lot on where you live and the cost of living there. I live in a high cost of living and have had CS jobs at $18 and then more specialized roles were $25 and up. I’m glad I am not in CS any longer but I’m still CS adjacent (now I work in Learning and Development supporting CS positions.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Also look into claims adjusting. That’s very customer service focused, and you can definitely make more than $20/hr. (My entry level trainee role many years ago started me out at $20, and then after 8 months, I went up to almost $22/hr.)

  50. JB*

    A coworker “Elsa” spread rumors about me having an affair with our boss. This happened years ago but lately I’ve been wondering how I should have responded. I was a bit of all-star in the office at the time, processing cases faster than anyone else on the team and as I result I was rewarded with some cherry assignments. Elsa, who seemed to be jealous of other women anyway, I guess decided that because I was getting the good assignments I must be having an affair with our boss. She told a few coworkers who then told a friend of mine who told me. I didn’t do anything about it other than deny it to my friend. I should mention that I was not having an affair, I was never even alone with my boss and we were not flirtatious or unprofessional in any way. Elsa quit a few months later but her two friends would occasionally make comments to me at work over the next year or so. For example, when I lost 25 lbs, they casually mentioned that usually a person loses weight when they are having an affair. I let the comments roll off my back. Now that I’m older and no longer at the job, I wonder what I should have done. Ignore it? Report it to my boss? HR? I still sometimes see Elsa at industry events and we pretend to not know each other.

    1. WellRed*

      I would have told Elsa immediately to knock it off, and then probably would have alerted HR to get it documented. This could have had repercussions for you. I believe it also falls under sexual harrassment.

    2. LKW*

      I think telling your boss and HR together would have been appropriate. His career was also put in jeopardy.

  51. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    I posted last week about having been accused of something terrible by someone in a different department in an attempt to get me fired. The accusation was false and it was dropped. Or so i thought.

    I spoke to my leadership (whom i distrust because they are chummy with Accuser). they chose to believe the accusation, though they brushed it off in a “it wasn’t THAT bad. Accuser tends to blow things out of proportion.” And they told me that all of my leadership knows and they believe the accusation, though they were ‘nice enough’ to defend me in that “it wasn’t THAT bad” way and basically told me to get over it.

    It’s unacceptable to me. The specifics that Accuser made up to seem more credible were easily disproven and when i brought that up, my manager casually says “oh, Accuser told me they got the details mixed up.” Yet they were still believed over me. They basically said it’s their word against mine (yet mine apparently has no weight). Even though it was proven that Incident That I Supposedly Did reportedly happened while i wasn’t even on location.

    When i asked them how am i supposed to work in an environment where the person who sits next to me tried to ruin my reputation and career. I was not only brushed off yet again, but i was told “well just don’t talk at all and they won’t have anything to complain about.”

    So I don’t even have to be present for garbage to be made up about me yet this is their oh so realistic solution.

    It took all my restraint to not walk out right then and there and never look back.

    Needless to say, am looking.

    1. Elle Woods*

      OMG. What a nightmare. I always err on the side of documenting things and would do so even more in this instance to protect yourself as much as possible.
      Hope you find something new ASAP.

    2. MacGillicuddy*

      Meanwhile I would document in writing what the person accused you of, and then in writing include the things that prove those accusations false. Send a copy to leadership, to your boss, and to HR.
      Also include something like “In spite of the evidence that these accusations are blatantly untrue, it appears that many of you continue to believe these falsehoods. This is very serious and I am appalled that there had been no consequences for the person who told these lies about me. Telling me that ‘it wasn’t that bad’ is not a solution.”
      You also might want to speak to a lawyer about this. You don’t know how these lies might follow you in future jobs.

  52. Unicorns & Butterflies*

    How many days do you miss a month?

    A coworker and I were discussing calling in sick or having sick children, mental health days, and vacation. And I have come to the conclusion mine and my children’s wellbeing should be more of a priority. I am a single parent and have been for the last 4 years. Pre pandemic, I was the parent to give my child as much medicine as necessary so I could work. I also was in a high stress, 60~hr week position. With the pandemic, I was burnout especially being deemed essential with no work from home luxury. I took a step down in position and pay to have sanity for myself and family.

    My coworker commented that I missed a lot of work. With vacation, sick children, and a mental health day, in the last year, I have been gone 1 day a month. Is this a lot? How many days do you average?

      2. Fran Fine*

        And dead wrong to boot. One day a month is not a big deal, especially if you have the leave allowance.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Seconding that your coworker is an ass. I get 20 days of vacation and 6 days of personal a year and you better believe I use them up, and I don’t have kids. Nor do I need them to want/need time away from work.

    3. fairleigh*

      1. If that’s how much time off you’re allowed, take it. It’s part of your compensation package.

      2. 1 day off a month is not a lot.

    4. Decidedly Me*

      For me, about that, but due to COVID reasons (I took less time than normal last year). However, with my upcoming time off for the rest of the year, it will average more than that (maybe about 2ish days per month). I’d say about 1-2 days per month average seems common for folks around me, too. However, I will say that sick time feels more disruptive than vacation time, since it’s last minute. People seem to notice folks that take a lot of sick time more than they do those that take a lot of vacation (even if the same amount).

      Overall, though, unless your manager seems to have a problem, I wouldn’t worry about it.

    5. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      I average between 1 and 3 days a month. Your coworker 1) is nosy; 2) should be taking more time off.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I have a generous time off bank. I try to plan for 2-3 days a month off (I count holidays and whatnot in there) as a baseline. Most of those days have no plan or purpose.
      I rarely take sick time – I’m just kinda healthy I guess.

      Once we finally could take off time during the pandemic (we were mandatory OT for nearly a year), I started taking a full week off every couple of months, instead of ones and twos.

      Your coworker can suck a lemon. Unless you’ve caused tremendous burden on them by being out, it’s none of their business, and quite frankly, if your being out 1 day a month throws things out of whack, that’s not even your problem, it’s management’s.

    7. Campfire Raccoon*

      It’s your time off! Take it. My employees miss 1-3 days a month. Like Decidedly said, sick days are more disruptive than vacation days as they mean we have to redo everyone’s service schedule last second. Vacation days are often forgotten about because people tend to think of vacation days as “owed” and sick days as “excuses”. The smaller the kid, the more likely the employee is going to need days off. For most folks, this # drops dramatically once the kids stop putting things in their mouths all the time, and picks up again when the kids become teenagers but can’t drive yet.

    8. Carol*

      I’m in awe that you are a sole parent and you only have 1 day per month. I’ve had to do way more than that due to tightened pandemic illness protocols at school.

      Honestly, that’s not a lot for any human being.

    9. Former Retail Manager*

      I don’t think 1 day per month is a lot, buuuutttt you mentioned that you are essential, so I have to ask if your 1 day per month was prescheduled and created no burden on anyone or were you unable to come in at the last minute (which is totally understandable) which created a burden on your co-workers and/or the organization. I’m picturing nursing, but admittedly don’t know enough about the scheduling of nurses to know if one person calling out would mess things up or not, or if you even work in nursing! :)

      I can say that if you seem to be the only taking this leave on a regular basis, and it is creating stress for your co-workers or org, I can see some folks maybe being a pit peeved with you, rightly or wrongly.

      If the time is part of your benefits package, by all means, take it, but if it’s creating a hardship, even for only one day, month in, month out, that probably doesn’t reflect well on you. To be clear, I agree with you that your health and that of your children is the priority, but if you’re the only one using time that way, I can see some folks being upset. If you’re not hearing anything from your boss, then I say continue as-is.

      1. WellRed*

        But one day a month is only 12 days a year. That’s not a lot. If it creates coverage issues, that’s another issue.

    10. Policy Wonk*

      When my kids were younger they would bring viruses home from school, and I missed time regularly when they couldn’t go to school, or when I caught what they had. Childless co-worker complained bout how he had to pick up the slack for me all the time. (Spoiler alert – he didn’t. We didn’t even have the same function!) I would guess your co-worker is similar to mine. As long as you are actually keeping up with your work your leave sounds reasonable to me for someone with kids.

    11. Malarkey01*

      What’s common at my job (and seriously every job would have different norms), but many months we don’t miss any days and then we’ll have a few months where someone takes 5-10 vacation days at once. Someone out a day a month would seem a lot at our place even though we’re taking more than 12 days a year.
      When in doubt ask your supervisor or check out what others do.

    12. Elenna*

      I don’t even have sick children, but I do have 15 days of vacation and yes, I definitely use them all, not using them would just be handing back part of my pay to the company basically. 12 days of vacation + sick doesn’t seem like a lot at all!

    13. RagingADHD*

      I WFH and have a flexible schedule, but one year my kid missed 20 days of school due to illness –before winter break. My husband and I probably would have split that. So 1 day a month does not seem excessive at all.

      I am glad you are prioritizing your kids ability to stay home when they need to. I know you felt under terrible pressure to make those choices, but I also know that the other families in your kid’s school will reap the benefits along with you.

    14. Disco Janet*

      Uhhh I’m a teacher, so built-in breaks around holiday and summer. I take one day off a month (unless doing so isn’t possible because of time already taken for illness, my kids’ appointments, etc.) for mental health and feel no shame about that.

    15. allathian*

      Your coworker’s being an ass.

      Granted, I’m not in the US, we have quite a lot of vacation, sick leave, and also paid sick leave to take care of a sick child. We’re also entitled to unpaid leave to take care of other dependents/loved ones, if necessary.

      When I returned to work after maternity leave, my son got into a spiral of ear infections when he first went to daycare. When it was really bad, I’d be out on average one week every month. I totally get it that my then-coworker got sick of covering for me, but I was working a 6-hour day, and it made more sense for me to take the time than my husband. When my son was a bit older and I went back to full-time, we started taking turns, and also enlisting my MIL to come to our house and care for him during the day when he was a convalescent and not allowed back in daycare, but not actively sick. My MIL’s a retired nursing teacher, so when I had an important meeting I couldn’t easily reschedule and my husband had to go on a business trip, she volunteered to care for him even when he had a fever.

      My son was last off school in August 2020 with a cold (negative Covid test), I haven’t taken a single sick day since December 2019 (cold or mild flu).

  53. Rav*

    I’m getting ready to throw my hat into the job hunting ring. I am a USA citizen, have a Hispanic name and my 8+ years work experience is in Puerto Rico, which is a USA territory. The last time I tried job hunting, I had few successful replies, and I fear one dissuasion might have been my foreigner-looking resume. I know this has happened at least once, because I received a reply along those lines (basically saying they loved my resume, but they couldn’t hire a green card). I have since added “USA citizen” explicitly on the resume. But I don’t know if there’s something else I can do to reduce that impression.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are you listing the employers by their official, Spanish-language names, or using an English translation?

      Like “Autoridad de Energía Eléctrica de Puerto Rico” or “Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority”? Going with the translation might help.

      1. Rav*

        I’m currently using the English translation.

        I have to revise it, so I’ll be on the look out for other Spanish wording.

    2. WellRed*

      I agree with translations but also, really check the language you use. For example, I’ve never heard anyone say USA citizen. Its usually US citizen or American citizen.

      1. Rav*

        I actually have American citizen on the resume. I don’t know why I remembered it USA citizen (although I’ve been using the latter when writing in international forums).

    3. capybara*

      I think that just listing you’re a US citizen should be sufficient. I’ve never seen anything more while reviewing resumes. I’d assume once you add that, if you’re still falling out of the funnel st the resume review stage, then there’s either some other opportunity for improvement in your resume or sadly, some people are being prejudiced regardless of your citizenship. It seems likely you would be glad to avoid working with people who would discriminate because of your name, though you’d know better about that. But assuming that most employers are following the law and not discriminating, I’d say the next step would be to get some good feedback on other aspects of your resume and make sure it’s representing you well.

      1. PT*

        I mean, there’s a bunch of really stupid Americans who think New Mexico is part of Mexico, not the United States. So some problems might stem from the fact that some hiring managers/HR legitimately do not realize that Puerto Rico is part of the United States, because they’re stupid.

  54. Trivia Newton-John*

    Well it’s been a week since my video interview for the remote position and it has been radio silence from the recruiter (although he knows I was not sure how it went). It’s hard not to be discouraged when I know I can do (and already am doing a lot of) the duties required in jobs that are above mine but I feel like I’ll never, ever get a shot.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If it helps, one week is pretty short timeframe. That said, assume you didn’t get it, save your notes and the job description for future reference, and keep applying.

  55. Mimmy*

    Second thing: Zoom connection issues

    My husband and I recently changed ISPs; instead of a cable modem, we now have a Wi-Fi device (T-Mobile). Since then, I’ve been having issues with Zoom where the video and sound get a little choppy. I use closed captions, so the sound choppiness makes it hard to follow in meetings.

    Also, I participate in Zoom groups with a volunteer organization (general chats, speaker series); during these meetings, I have been getting an alert saying “your network bandwidth is low” and even “your internet connection is unstable”. I use closed captions during these meetings too. Luckily I haven’t had that during work meetings aside from the aforementioned sound choppiness, but I’m nervous for when we go back into the office next month as we will still be expected to conduct meetings and instruction on Zoom.

    Things I’ve tried so far: tweaking video settings and using my phone as a hotspot rather than the household Wi-Fi unit.

    What has worked for you guys when there is video and/or sound quality issues during meetings / groups on Zoom or other platforms?

    2. Me*

      Your problem is an internet connectivity one. There’s nothing that’s going to fix that except fixing your internet. Turning off video will help but for many people that’s not realistic to just never appear on video.

      I had Tmobile internet for less than 24 hours. It’s simply not good enough to support my work. And yeah it sucks because I have to pay $20 bucks more a month for another provider than if tmobile worked well. I obviously don’t know why you switched. I switched to save a few bucks, but like I said, saving a few bucks in exchange for crappy internet wasn’t a worthwhile exchange for me.

      1. Mimmy*

        What if I just use my phone as a hotspot? From what I understood, it connects directly to the tower, taking our Wi-Fi router out of the equation.

        1. WellRed*

          I don’t know about hotspots but I can’t fathom changing service providers and getting a WiFi router and then… having to bypass the router. What is your internet speed? Google test my internet speed.

    3. Skeeder Jones*

      I use a wi-fi modem and found that it meant I sometimes have an unreliable connection to my work vpn (and with connectivity during meetings). I needed to connect via ethernet for something IT related and found that it is much more stable so I just left that ethernet cable connected. I used to come in and out of connection several times a day and now I have a consistent signal throughout the entire workday with no problem during virtual meetings.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I’m a bit fuzzy on what you’ve got – where does your WiFi device get it’s signal from? But there are a couple reasons why this could be happening.

      1) Your internet plan doesn’t have the bandwidth you need. Solution: upgrade internet, or change providers.
      2) Your internet plan theoretically is fast enough, but a lot of people in your neighbourhood are doing high data transfer, and it’s getting sluggish. Upgrading may or may not help. If your speed is fine at weird hours (like 3 in the morning), but slow in the evening, or during business hours this can be the problem.
      3) Your internet plan is fine, your router isn’t fast enough (if your router is older this can be an issue). Solution: upgrade router. Also, some routers have two signals, one optimized for computers, one for cellphones, if so, use that. If this is the case, your internet will be fine when plugged in with a cable, but unstable with wifi.
      4) The internet is fine, but the signal at your laptop is too weak, due to things like walls. You can test this by moving closer to the router. You can get rebroadcasters that help with this.
      5) Check what else might be using the internet at the same time. If you sync to the cloud (Dropbox, Google Drive, etc), turn that off during telecons. Ditto automatic downloads on things like videogame consoles.

      If it’s the base internet that’s too slow, the only real solution is to upgrade. We had to do this for work from home, for heavy data transfer of work files, and so we could do two videocons simultaneously while being able to access web resources.

      1. Mimmy*

        where does your WiFi device get it’s signal from?

        It gets its signal from a cell tower. It’s a high-speed internet gateway. It uses a primary signal and a secondary signal–4G and 5G, respectively. Occasionally, the 5G signal gets dropped and the signal goes to a different tower, usually one that only supports a 4G signal.

        I think we’ve just been spoiled because we had a really good plan with our previous provider but it was a bit pricey. We switched to T-Mobile to save money. And yes, my husband has noticed that speeds are great at 3:00 am. We can definitely tell when there’s congestion from many users on at once.

        Most of our other internet-based activities have been fine; it’s just my Zoom meetings that have been a bit flakey with this change. I guess it’s a case of “you get what you pay for”.

        This might be veering away from being work-related, so maybe I’ll post again tomorrow on the weekend thread.

        1. Product Person*

          I use TMobile and have no problems with Zoom calls!

          One possibility is too many neighbors using the same wifi channel–by changing yours you may be able to solve the problem. I’d contact the provider and explain the problem, they might suggest this or another solution.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          Yeah, it sounds like a case of saving money, but getting poorer service in exchange.

          Real-time video streaming is particularly sensitive to internet disruptions because it’s data heavy, and you can’t buffer. If you’re streaming a movie, the downloading occurs in advance of what you’re watching, so any hiccups in speed or connectivity are hidden unless things get really slow. But that would lead to time lags with video, which doesn’t work in a real time conversation.

          So for this – make sure all other internet connected devices aren’t doing anything, and don’t do any web browsing or other internet use while on a Zoom all (and make sure your husband is off the network as well).

  56. Bay*

    My spouse is very unhappy working in this particular hospital, partly because of transphobia. However, they’ve only been working there since January. There’s only a few hospitals in the area, so they don’t want to burn a bridge. Is it too soon to apply to other hospitals and just get out? Long term they’re looking at a career change but probably will still be involved with the hospital systems in some capacity so they really don’t want to piss off the biggest hospital in the area.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      If they are experiencing transphobia, I think it’s better for them to get out sooner rather than later. Is it a bit soon overall? Sure, but that’s not a reason to stay in a bad environment.

      Wishing them the best!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      This will very much depend on where you are and your local community, but would your spouse be willing to be an advocate? Healthcare is very much aware that they need to be inclusive to everyone and the executives/HR/board of directors know that they need to quash any bias. It’s possible that speaking up and providing transphobic statements and actions that they witnessed would actually lead to change.
      But honestly, I would start my job search. If I knew I could easily move on, then I wouldn’t stir the pot. But if I was stuck, then I would do what I could to make a change.

      1. Bay*

        The hospital is aware they need to improve, but ultimately does nothing about complaints from what I understand. There’s other trans folks who have tried in the past.

  57. I write this sitting in the kitchen sink*

    Does anyone have good advice for how to preserve boundaries around work, when you are working with a needy/vulnerable population?

    I work for a nonprofit that serves children in need. It’s very valuable but demanding work – in the past, it has taken over my evenings and weekends, and has affected my mental health, reinforced by a workplace culture that values intense dedication and discourages setting of boundaries (think: last-minute requests to set up evening calls, an expectation of considerable time spent on work tasks outside the workday, setting meetings for evenings). I am looking to leave, but while I search, I am also trying to establish better work-life boundaries. I do sometimes need to work evenings and weekends to serve the needs of our population, but I think I can do a better job of protecting my time as well as my mental space, so I’m not always working or thinking about work.

    Suggestions?

    1. Parakeet*

      Honestly I think the problem sounds like primarily your workplace’s culture. I work with a vulnerable population too, but my org encourages boundaries and provides good supervision and is conscientious about trying to prevent burnout.

      If there’s a lot of expectation of evening work, would it be possible to, for instance, take morning or midday breaks, where you go relax for an hour or two?

      Are there spaces at work where you can process the more emotionally difficult stuff that you’re coming up against? Does your org have a clinical supervisor or something similar, who you could schedule a session with to talk about the mental effects of the work?

      1. I write this sitting in the kitchen sink*

        Yes, I think you’re entirely correct that this is a workplace culture issue. My organization doesn’t have great protections in place for us and more often pays lip service to boundaries than actually encourages them (part of why I’m looking to leave!).

        I think I can actually draw a firmer line around the evening work more often, when it’s not strictly necessary, and I am starting a weekly session this week with someone who can help me process, so hopefully that will help too. Thanks!

    2. lil falafel wrap*

      It’s definitely tough! I’ve worked with children and young people who are homeless and in foster care, and it’s hard to take a step back when there are so many needs.

      I’m getting my MSW at the moment, and boundaries are something we discuss often. I think one thing that helped me was realizing boundaries are not just there for me, but they’re also there for the people I’m supporting. For me, the clearest sign I am burning out is becoming overly rigid. That is when I know my anxiety has reached an unsustainable level and I need to take a step back or remove something from my plate, lest my own personal pursuit of perfectionism and efficiency start affecting others. I also imagine I am in a bubble with my clients, and when I leave work and that relationship, I’m also stepping out of that bubble. It’s unrealistic to say that the people we work with don’t affect us, but we can’t carry that with us all the time. I think this is important for self-other differentiation, and I think self-other differentiation actually helps build empathy, rather than hinder it. It helps me hold the fact that this story, this lived experience of theirs, belongs to them, not me, and that the primary effects of this story belong to them.

      As for approaching that convo with clients and coworkers? I make it explicit during the week. I say things like, I’m leaving for the weekend at 4—what should my priority be before I’m off? Or, I’m going on vacation until next week, who can you reach out to if you need support while I’m gone? Make sure people have what they need while you’re there and know that when you’re gone, they’ll have to turn to someone else. Good luck! It’s hard but rewarding work.

      2. I write this sitting in the kitchen sink*

        This framing is super helpful – thank you! I especially love the mental image of stepping out of the bubble – I’m definitely going to try that.

        And I appreciate your emphasis on knowing your own signs of burnout – I’m not always great at catching myself before things deteriorate, and it’s a good reminder of the importance of recognizing my signals and pulling back earlier. It’s a growth goal for me :-)

  58. Bex*

    Okay. Really need advice here.

    I have a colleague, R, in my department who has consistently tried to shove his administrative work off to me. There are a lot of small examples of it, but listing them would take too much time. To be clear, R has no supervisorial or management power over me, nor do I report to him in any interpretation of our org chart. This has been going on for over a year, but I’ve been shutting it down lately after flagging it for management confirmation that it’s not my job. Suffice to say, both my former and current manager have agreed that what R asks me to do is not my job and I have no responsibility to do those things.

    Recently a request was made by our manager to inventory certain equipment that falls squarely under R’s purview, the majority of which only he has access to. Wednesday he asked me (in front of 4 colleagues) to make the list and get it to him so he could turn it in. I told him, “No, R, I’m not doing that work. It’s not my role.” He laughed and basically said, “oh come on. We know you like lists.” I repeated that I was not going to do it, and then walked away to resume my own work.

    Thursday (yesterday) was my rotation to lead the morning meeting. Due to scheduling conflicts, our manager was not there. As soon as I got to R, and asked for their update, they immediately started with, “Well, I got that list started, so I’m going to send it to you, Bex, so you can finish it.”

    I interrupted and said, “Do not send the list to me. I do not want it and do not need it. If you want to share it, put it on Sharepoint.”

    He broke in and insisted, “No, it’s fine, you just have to-“

    “R. Do not send me that list. I do not want it. Put it on Sharepoint if you want others to have access to it.”

    “No, I’ll just send it to you and-“

    “No. Do not send it to me. Put it on Sharepoint if needed.”

    There was awkward silence for a few seconds and then the meeting continued. About three to four hours later R put the list on Sharepoint.

    Problem… I was forceful and did interrupt R to shut his instructions down. And R is prone to making HR complaints at the drop of a hat. example: we are in IT work, and two people were discussing a particular piece of equipment and setup. During this discussion which did not involve R at all, master and slave processes and hardware were discussed. R filed an HR complaint that the other two were being clearly racist against R by using “master and slave” as descriptors, despite it being industry norm for decades.

    How do I best document and discuss this? I am planning on bringing it up directly with my manager during our monthly check in today, and outlining what happened. But I am still worried about a potential HR complaint. Technically, I was in the wrong for interrupting him. I should’ve waited until he was done speaking and shut it down at that point. But this guy can ramble for 10 minutes without actually conveying information, and I did not want to let the idea that I was somehow in charge of this list to sit in anyone’s mind that long.

    Also. Any advice for dealing with a horrible work-shy colleague who constantly does little digs?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you asked him flat out why he thinks you should be doing that?

      “R, why would you send me that list? You’re the only one with access to the equipment, and it’s specifically your responsibility.”

      1. Bex*

        I have asked! The only response is “you’re so much more organized” – to which I say, practice makes perfect so start trying it yourself. There is just a constant degeneration back to trying to place admin work on me with no reasoning.

    2. WellRed*

      I actually don’t see any issues with the conversation as posted. Instead of getting hung up in a possible HR complaint focus on your mgr meeting. This is still going on, what can be done to resolve this and what’s the timeline? It doesn’t sound like the mgr has actually addressed anything so make this their problem. I hate to ask but are you female?

      1. Bex*

        I am indeed female – only one in the department.

        The issue with current manager is that they’re just an interim/temp. Our original manager left in early April, and due to COVID and the requirements for our overall business, we’ve been sharing a manager with a sister site out of state. We do have a new manager starting, but it will be at least a month before they’re here.

        1. fueled by coffee*

          Yeah, I agree with WellRed that this smacks of sexism. Specifically since he’s dumping admin tasks onto you because “we all know you like lists” (what?!).

          But still, I would escalate this to your/R’s manager. R keeps assigning you admin work that is not part of your job, even though R has no supervisor authority over you. This is a problem with R that R’s manager needs to take up with him.

          I wouldn’t be too worried about an HR report. All you’ll have to say is that R tried to assign you work even though (1) he’s not your supervisor and (2) it’s not part of your job, and you declined.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I agree, your response (not reaction, but response) sounds entirely appropriate and professional.

        R is being a jackass and ignoring a clear “no” from you *and* the manager. You’re in the clear if he does go to HR, since he’s in the wrong

        Side note: As much as I agree that the industry norm of the M&S terms are racist, that’s not HR’s job to fix; the actually viable route would be to agree as a team to use a more neutral terms. The alternate that I’ve heard that seems okay is Parent & Child, but I’m happy to learn of better terms.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          To clarify, my first sentence meant:

          You responded to R, you didn’t react to him. The former is intentional and professional, so don’t let this jackass make it seem like you were being unprofessional or hostile or whatever other BS he may try to pull.

    3. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      Document with as much detail possible. After these incidents, write up what happened with as much detail as you can remember. Email it to yourself so there’s a timestamp. If HR comes to you, you will then have this document to share.
      Also, follow up with your manager. If they’re a decent manager at all, you can spell out what happened (so they are in the loop), and you could also ask, “this is how I handled it in the moment, but with future incidences, should I handle it differently?”
      And your manager really should be doing more managing of R by this point …. They need to know that the issue is continuing. As much as possible, make this the manager’s problem to solve.

      1. Magda*

        If you are female or a minority and R is not, I would also flag the pattern when I talk to HR and my manager, in as nicey-nice a way as I possibly can. Maybe try to find neutral articles, even here on AAM, where they describe how female-presenting and minority people can be “unintentionally” pushed into lower-prestige assignments and support roles while white males get plum assignments (so it’s not you saying this, it’s some expert) otherwise they may not get the issue and just see it as an interpersonal conflict. If you had any reason to believe that R was operating in good faith, I’d find a way to talk to him about this too – but he may not be. Sadly, these types of things may not be recognized as a pattern by folks who never experience them.

        1. Bex*

          I can say with confidence R is not operating in good faith. I was unintentionally privy to a portion of their thought process (R forwarded me an email chain with an “assignment” for me wherein lower in the chain he mentioned that it’s fine for me, since women do the admin work ugh ugh).

          I am female but R is a minority and has past weaponized that (see above complaint re standard terms in our industry). I have brought it up on 1 on 1s before with manager that admin duties have fallen to me (a year straight of taking meeting notes for our department meetings is one example), and I would like to clearly remove myself from the default admin role, which manager has tried to support me in.

          1. Magda*

            Wow you have it in email? My God. Print out that email and march directly to HR. Usually there’s no smoking gun on these things – you could sue the pants off them on this if they don’t have your back now.

            1. Bex*

              I have it in email and forwarded it to HR, with a request that they look into the issue. That was eight months ago. As far as I can tell, nothing has happened. And HR has (rightly) said they cannot discuss potential employee discipline etc with me. Which I get. But ugh – this guy is just the worst in this regard. He’s done much worse in person, spoken – but it’s spoken, a he said she said thing. Which is why I now won’t have conversations with him without a witness, and I ask for everything in writing.

              1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

                You CAN go back to HR to tell them that your issues with R are still ongoing. R is still trying assign you work. Has management actually told R explicitly to stop assigning work to you? If not, someone needs to tell R to knock it off yesterday.

          2. cat servant*

            R knows hes doing a poor job and he’s filing away HR complaints for random stuff so he can create a history of “they are racist! they don’t like me because they are racist” in case someone actually does try to put him on a PIP. He knows EXACTLY what he’s doing.
            Do not let his sexism stand. Document everything. Go to HR so they have a record showing what he’s doing. They will need this information. Next time he tries to tell you do to something I would speak up and say “R , we have discussed this. That is not my job. I do not work for you. Just because I am female presenting does NOT mean that I will do your administrative tasks. I am a professional and your PEER and I will be treated as such.” It is strong language but you need to make it clear that you will not put up with his sexism. Then report it to HR.
            Oh and Interrupting someone is NOT something to report to HR. But i would go to HR now and tell them what you are dealing with because they need to know.

      2. Bex*

        Luckily there were five other witnesses in the meeting, all of whom are well aware of R’s tendency to palm his work off on anyone else (another person in meeting had to have a similar “no, this is your job, I am not doing it for you” repeat convo).

        I did write down the details, and sent to myself. 3 of my colleagues have already said if there is a complaint they are happy for me to list them as witness so they can give full scope.

        Our current manager is a temp manager and I don’t think they have the authority to place R on a PIP (honestly, it seems like one is needed) or otherwise discipline. Rules can get weird here – things are very stratified. But I am going to put the convo on our current manager and ask them to address.

    4. CatCat*

      You didn’t do anything wrong. Release from your mind the idea that you were “technically in the wrong for interrupting him.” It can be appropriate to interrupt someone when they are trying to steamroll you. HE was in the wrong for continuing to do that with respect to the list. You appropriately shut it down.

      It sounds like you are dealing well with an infuriating situation.

      1. Bex*

        Thank you. And yeah – interruptions are normally not a thing I do, but after he tried to push it on me Wednesday I wasn’t about to let it slide in the group meeting.

    5. Carol*

      A note that you are not in the wrong at all in this case (and I wouldn’t worry if an eventual complaint surfaces), but R could have been right to call out the “master and slave” lingo, which is being retired in some areas because of its roots. Complaining to HR definitely wouldn’t be the first recommended route for raising the concern, because as you note, it’s standard industry language–just that he’s not alone in thinking it’s inappropriate.

      1. Bex*

        Agreed that the language should change – it was weird to me when I started in IT two decades ago and still weird. But it’s that he turned it into an HR complaint specifically saying the other two were being racist towards him when he wasn’t involved at all – or even in same room. And the complaint wasn’t about wanting to update language etc. R specifically held it up as an example of racism directed squarely at him.

    6. BRR*

      You weren’t technically in the wrong. You are free and clear in the right. You have documentation that he’s being sexist. If he makes a complaint with HR you respond that you were dealing with his sexist behavior. And frankly you should follow up with HR since his behavior hasn’t stopped since you forwarded that initial email.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      You need to go to HR. I used to have a problem employee like your R who would run to HR with things like your “master and slave process”. I went to HR, talked to them about the relationship in broad terms, and then when something like that would happen, would send an e-mail along the lines of “R may be inbound with yet another complaint. Here is what happened, and what R said to me about it. Let me know if you have any questions.” They knew R was a problem person, and it helped for them to have a heads up. Didn’t stop R from complaining, but put things in context.

      RE: R, In my view it’s OK to interrupt and shut them down after you’ve already addressed the issue once, politely.

    8. Bex*

      Update for any curious:

      I laid out the interaction for my manager, who said they saw no problem in me speaking up immediately to stop the interaction. They also committed to reiterating to R that they don’t assign me work, etc … but I think at least until our perm manager is in, the best I might be able to hope for is just being supported in repeatedly pushing back.

      Have also vented to my partner about R’s latest round of shenanigans over a mimosa. Feeling much better lol

  59. Lilly*

    Here’s a weird one: I’m at a new job, and my manager is very strongly encouraging me to use tuition reimbursement to do a graduate program. But I just finished a master’s degree directly related to my field and actually have a previous master’s degree and lots of graduate coursework from my former career. I have no interest in doing another master’s, graduate certificate, or a PhD but my manager brings these up in every meeting as “professional development” that I should be pursuing. I’m also currently using my company’s tuition reimbursement to take a fun class totally unrelated to my job (this is fully allowable and within my benefits) which gets my manager worked up when I mention it. I’ve said in no unclear terms that I have no interest in doing another degree. Some of my other coworkers (including my manager) are doing part time master’s or PhD programs and constantly complain about the workload and how difficult it is to manage. And frankly there is absolutely no reason anyone needs a PhD for work at my level or above. Why would I do this? How else can I convince my manager that this is totally unnecessary? Any suggestions of wording? I’ve tried jokingly brushing it off, saying I’m not interested, saying I have no time, directly saying I’m not interested in any more degrees or any of the programs offered. At this point the nagging is getting annoying…

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is he evaluated by how many of his employees are in graduate programs? Maybe the company as a whole really values this, for whatever reason, and he gets dinged by his management if he doesn’t get you on board?

      1. Bostonian*

        Ding ding! Manager is probably pushing it to make themselves look good. (“Look at how much my team has learned and developed!”)

        Is there some other related learning opportunity you could suggest to do instead? A conference? Webinar? Workshop?

    2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      Ask the manager what *specifically* they think you should be pursuing or what courses you should be taking. What skills or knowledge should you be developing, and how will those skills/that knowledge help you in your job/career?

    3. OtterB*

      It looks like this is specifically about tuition reimbursement, so this might not be possible, but could you suggest other professional development activities like attending a national conference?

    4. AlltheWayAnonForThis*

      Oh, boy. I worked in higher ed and wanted to take fun tuition-benefit-covered graduate classes to explore one of my undergraduate interests. My boss at the time hated that idea and pressured me into HIS PROGRAM…not any program, but his program. My boss became my instructor and my advisor, and many of my colleagues became my instructors. This was not entirely unheard of at my small institution, much like yours. It was all designed for him to be able to dump his responsibilities onto me and give me the credentials to justify him doing that. After I completed the program, he pressured me into his doc program, which I backed out of; I’d also given half a year’s notice in my job and was leaving entirely. When I backed out of the doc program, he stopped talking to me; stopped answering emails; rearranged his schedule so we’d never be on campus at the same time; stopped including me in departmental meetings and activities; took me off courses that were ones I managed as a director and without telling me; refused to sign off on my licensure paperwork; and destroyed all my student records that he could gain access to, then falsified fake and very wrong information after I reported him up the chain. I got my most important license but have no idea what will happen when I try to go for a doc program or other sort of license using the work I did in his program.

      DO NOT DO IT, if it means your boss will in any way be your instructor, advisor, or academic authority. Yes, it’s tons of work and it nearly wrecked my marriage, especially with all the internship requirements; I worked 7 days a week between coursework, grading, and basically two jobs. And always be wary of a person, and particularly a boss or colleague, who refuses to take “no” for an answer. That’s a huge red flag. I wish I’d hadn’t been so color blind.

      1. AlltheWayAnonForThis*

        Coming back to this, because I couldn’t figure out your boss’ angle. Does your tuition reimbursement come with strings? Mine did. So, my boss’ other angle in pressuring me into a full program was keeping me at the institution, as my institution’s benefit didn’t 100% kick in until X many years after the course(s) were taken. If I left, I would have owed what amounts to a good down payment on a house for a degree I didn’t finish, and then he thought he’d still have me for X years after the degree was done. Going into a 60+ hour grad program full-time is usually a good a 3 years, and much longer if it’s done part-time (not even mentioning a PhD program with dissertation process)…so people are stuck for the length of the program and then stuck for X years afterward. tl;dr Does your company pressure people into going into programs so they can’t leave?

    5. fhqwhgads*

      If your boss knows you have two masters degrees and still doesn’t understand why you don’t find it desirable to pursue a third, I don’t think there’s any way to get through to this person. They’re either pushing it for reasons that have nothing to do with you, or an idiot.

  60. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I had an interview for an internal position yesterday for a manager position in another department (I’m currently a senior individual contributor). It went okay, but I’m not 100% sure I want the role if it is offered to me. At the same time, when I told my boss I was interviewing, she told me she didn’t want to lose me and submitted “something” to HR and our senior leadership trying to get my current role raised to a higher level. I have been in my current role 5.5 years, and there’s not a lot of room for growth in my very small department. I’m also currently up against the salary cap for my job’s band so I can no longer receive raises. I’d really like to move into a manager-title role so I can apply for director roles in the next 5 or so years, however, even if my current role is expanded and I move into the next salary band, it is unlike that I would be a people manager. More likely I would be given a “Program Manager” type title and more responsibility, but no additional resources. I would love to stay in an expanded current role, but I worry that I’m setting myself up for failure if I’m expected to do significantly more without any additional staff to assist. Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on this situation? (Of note is that I’m currently not looking for roles outside my company, as I’m in the middle of IVF and can’t afford to lose FMLA coverage if I get pregnant–I’m the breadwinner in my family.)

    1. fueled by coffee*

      It sounds like both of these potential new roles are still up in the air. I’d wait to see how they each pan out and then make a decision based on comparing the two – maybe your current manager will be able to negotiate more resources for you, maybe not, and that might sway your decision. Can you talk to your current manager about ways to gain more management experience in your current department if the other department’s position doesn’t come through or you decide you don’t want to take it?

      Also, what are your reasons for not being particularly interested in the other department’s manager position? Are those dealbreakers or aspects of the job that might be negotiable? Are they things you might be willing to put up with for a few years until you can put your hat in the ring for director positions or, alternatively, lateral moves to manager positions in other departments?

      Basically, I think it’s hard to do this kind of decision-making when you don’t have all the cards on the table.

  61. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    Got an odd one.

    There’s a member of staff, fairly new to my department though not new to the company who after every time I say something factual (like “we get a lot of calls about application X so we’ve done an FAQ you should read for the most common problems” or “I won’t be in between hours X and Y because I have a doctors appointment”) replies with

    “We’ll see about that” and smirks.

    It’s off putting because it feels like they’re telling me I am wrong, but it’s not an actual insult so I can’t tell them off for it. Or can I?

    (They/them for my member of staff please)

    1. not a doctor*

      Can you call whatever bluff they’re making? “What do you mean by that?” With an air of confusion.

    2. WellRed*

      “See about what?” With genuine confusion. (I honestly don’t get her comment in this context, it makes no sense, but just highlight the awkward).

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Agreed, it makes no sense!

        I’ve tried going ‘eh?’. Generally they tend to turn around and go back to their screen/walk away after saying it no matter how I react to this bizarre stuff like it was the end of the conversation. I get it, we’re IT and we collect odd people like Pokemon cards (also how I ended up running it /joke) but I’m thinking maybe it’s some part of their personality?

        Their work is fine.

    4. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      What I would do is look confused and to ask as politely and earnestly as possible, “What do you mean by that?” and keep asking for explanation. Take the fun out by asking them to thoroughly explain the comment with as sincere and puzzled tone as you can muster.

    5. fairleigh*

      I think you totally can. Not tell them off, but name it, describe the effect, and then ask them to stop.

      “You might not realize, but you often have a pattern of responding to factual statements by saying ‘We’ll see about that,’ and what I interpret as smirking. This makes me feel like you’re telling me I’m wrong about something I’m not, and that’s off-putting. I’d like you to find some alternative ways of responding.”

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Can I include the smirking bit though? I really like the rest of your wording and will probably use it but I…dunno..I’ve had enough managers criticise me about what my face is/isn’t doing to not want to perpetuate the cycle.

        Although, I think Alison has some posts here about people looking disrespectful/pissed off? Your comment has reminded me to take a look.

        1. fairleigh*

          I wouldn’t frame it as criticizing someone’s face, but, “This is how I interpret this thing, which, when combined with this other thing, can give a negative impression.”

          I’d feel especially comfortable saying that if I noticed their face only did the smirking thing when making snide comments—that it wasn’t their habitual expression and they could choose when to deploy it or not.

          But even if you leave that part out I think focusing on the comments and tone of voice alone is enough.

          1. introverted af*

            This also gives them the opportunity to say something like, “oh no, I meant some other totally innocent thing because of XYZ idiosyncrasy from my life, I’ll try to keep that in mind.”
            OR, I suppose they could double down, but either way their response will tell you a lot.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      If there aren’t any signs of the employee trying to undermine you, then I’m leaning towards this being a lame joke. Like a “That’s what she said!” kind of thing.
      Likely, using any of the other suggestions should shake them out of it. Call them on it, and show your confusion/displeasure on your face, and they will understand that the joke isn’t landing.

      1. Anon From Here*

        Yeah, I wonder if they’re not trying to make a joke. My spouse and I similarly joke with each other a lot like this, for example, I’ll text to say I expect to be home soon, and spouse replies with “Not if I see you first!”

    8. Double A*

      Since people have suggested actual reasonable responses, I’m going to suggest fantasy.one: just say back, “Or will we?…” Raise an eyebrow meaningfully and nod knowingly. Slowly back out of the room while nodding and maintaining eye contact.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Combined with @AndersonDarling’s suggestion the employee is offering a joke that isn’t landing, this might actually work pretty well as a shared joke between them.

    9. Caboose*

      This sounds to me like someone who thinks that this is a cool or funny way to respond to normal social interactions, and is doing it in some misguided attempt at socialization. (Speaking as a fellow tech person and a bit of an odd duck.)
      I’d tell them straight out “That’s a bizarre thing to say” in a way that makes it clear that you’re not impressed by this particular affectation. But it doesn’t necessarily sound like it’s *intended* to undermine you or anything like that, which means that it might need a different approach to cut off. I’ve known a lot of people who do and say weird things like this because they picked them up in media, and just…don’t realize that it’s not actually charming in person, and it’s certainly not charming the millionth time they do it.
      (obligatory disclaimer about neurodivergent people struggling with socializing sometimes here because I know if I don’t make it, someone will come in with some unfounded, infantilizing bs about this person and the people I work with)

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        No worries mate, I’m neurodivergent af and that’s why I’m wondering if this is actually normal human stuff that my weird brain can’t process. Glad to see it’s not!

        They’re…mostly normal? For IT anyway but I do get a feeling that maybe they’re gunning for my job or at least a major promotion. They were a fairly high rank in another department before they changed careers to IT and maybe they think that they’ll rise back up the ladder swiftly.

        (They won’t. They’re ok at troubleshooting but only common faults)

    10. JB*

      Sounds like they may think they’re being a comedian. This is the kind of comment often thrown out by an office funnyman, and someone less socially skilled may have decided this is an easy joke to throw around, without realizing that it risks coming across as rude and disrespectful unless you know how to pull it off and REALLY know your audience.

      I’m not saying you should allow it to continue, but hoping this perspective might help you tailor how you approach them about this.

    11. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Are there any other interactions you have with them that are weird? Do you think you might be misinterpreting their facial expression for smirking? Do they say it to others? What they say is just such a non sequitur, and the fact that they always say it makes me think it’s just a weird habit/go-to phrase/verbal tic/way to end the conversation. If it really annoys you, find them at another time and ask them about (“I’ve noticed you end conversations with…. And find it very confusing…”).

    12. GNG*

      “Is that supposed to be a joke?”

      Best case scenario: This may be their awkward misguided attempt to be funny, or to appear cool and confident? Maybe similar to sometimes people say “God willing!” after chatting about some future plan. If they’ve seen other people say that and share a little chuckle, maybe that’s what they were going for?

      Worse case scenario: They were saying it to contradict/undermine you: that’s their way of saying You Are Not the Boss of Me and I’ll read your FAQ when I want, if I want!

      Honestly, I’m more inclined to think the 1st scenario is more likely. The 2nd one doesn’t make sense, especially in the context of the doctors appointment thing.

      In any case, I think you can and should call them out on it. Personally, I wouldn’t tolerate hearing it again in the future. Would it be an option for you to speak with their former boss to check if they did this too in their previous department?

    13. RagingADHD*

      Whatever the intention is, they must be getting reinforced by your response somehow, because they keep doing it.

      I vote for the “spoil the game” response. Be very literal.

      “You say that a lot, and I don’t know why. It doesn’t make any sense. What do you think you will see about? Are you confused about what I’m telling you?”

  62. The Smiling Pug*

    Hello AAM comment section,
    I’m wondering about something. I just recently moved from say, “llama training” to “helping people with their pet llamas at home.” In other words, a slightly higher step at the same company. However, it’s still technically part-time, and I’m a month in and I can tell this position holds no future for me. But, since I just got here, I can’t just throw down my two weeks and walk out. So, I guess my question is this: how long should I stay before I start looking seriously for another position?

    1. WellRed*

      You can give notice anytime you want. You’re not beholden to the company. Part time, no future? Pass

      1. Countess of Upstairs Downstairs*

        But, since I just got here, I can’t just throw down my two weeks and walk out.

        Sincere question: is this an assumption on your part? If you can see plainly that this position isn’t working for you, it’s better to cut your losses early rather than drag it out and be miserable.

        That said, I would still suggest having an honest discussion with your boss to say now that you’ve gotten a better understanding of the job, you realize it’s not a good fit for you, and it’s better to part ways.

          1. The Smiling Pug*

            That’s ok, Countess! I still got your comment. I’ll definitely have a chat with my boss about why this job isn’t considered full-time, even though I’m pushing the limit for part-time work.

    2. JB*

      When it’s a part time position, a lot of the standard rules about how long to stay don’t apply.

      The concern with only staying a short period is that you’ll look like a flake to future employers. Explaining in interviews now that you’re looking for a full-time position, and (in the far future) marking this job on your resume as part-time (if you even choose to include it) will make it clear why you didn’t stay long.

      1. The Smiling Pug*

        Thank you for the reminder to mark this as part-time on my resume. Looking flaky is one of the reasons why I’m not making a serious effort at leaving yet, but this is really helpful. :)

  63. Alice*

    My company is proud of our culture of open communication. Questions are invited and greeted with enthusiasm pretty much all the time. You won’t be surprised that COVID policies are the subject of a lot of questions.
    Lately, sometimes, the questions I am asking are not getting answered. I’m getting perfectly reasonable responses from people in my chain of command (“I don’t know but I’ll pass it along to the people who will know the answer.”) But then time stretches on with no follow up. I bring it up again in a month — same polite, reasonable non-response. This has gone on for a while.
    I’m not talking about open-ended questions here, but specific ones about our workplace. For example, “when the workplace safety team came through and tested the ventilation in all our spaces, did they check room X?” (This is a reasonable question because the door looks like a closet, so might easily have been missed, and it doesn’t seem to have any vents in it.)
    I am worried that, by bringing it up multiple times over several months, I look like I am fixated.
    What do you think I should do now?

      1. Alice*

        More questions than most other people for sure.
        At the same time, my chain of command has explicitly said, to me (not just in general), “keep asking questions.” I am second-guessing myself nevertheless.

      2. searching for a new name*

        this comment, and do you go in Room X a lot? Is the question related to your job?

        1. Alice*

          Before the pandemic, I did use Room X a lot. Since I came back to work on site, I have been avoiding Room X (we have nearby alternatives).
          My colleagues have been using Room X as they always did.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      What answer are you looking for?

      If the answer is “No, they didn’t, and we forgot to follow up with them”, then management looks incompetent. If the answer is “Yes, they did, but that room failed since it has no vents and we don’t know what to do about it”, then management also looks incompetent.

      Have they done similar footdragging for uncomfortable questions (non-Covid) in the past?

      1. Alice*

        I laughed at your comment ;)
        I am hoping for “yes, they did check it and it’s fine” but I would also settle for “they missed it and they are coming back next week to check” or “that room failed the test so we are putting an air purifier there.”
        I mean, if someone made a mistake, surely it’s better to fix it now than to just pretend?
        No, the foot dragging is new.

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          Could it be that… they actually aren’t doing anything regarding potential COVID issues and don’t intend to? Like if Room X was checked and found to have failed, it could be that their chosen course of action is “Well, we aren’t going to spend money on fixing that so we will take our chances.”

          Is your boss the one telling you to keep asking? I hate to assume the worst, but perhaps they recognize it is an issue as well and want you to be the one to bring it up so they don’t have to.

          A room without a vent or a window, and no visible means of air purification likely isn’t getting much in the way of air circulation, so it feels to me like the answer is they know this is a weakness but they don’t want to admit it because then they have to act on it.

          1. Alice*

            That would be Machiavellian! The idea that my boss + boss’s boss could be encouraging me to keep asking because they don’t want to bring it up themselves, I mean…. I’m sure it could happen somewhere, but that would be out of character for everyone involved here.

            I honestly think that the most likely explanation is just that everyone involved is juggling a lot, rather than malevolence or greed.
            But the shared, unfiltered air is still dangerous and against our policies, whether it stems from malice or inattention.

  64. FridayFeels*

    Hi all! I’m currently on a temp-to-perm contract at a great company, and my manager has told me multiple times that they loved me and my work, and they would absolutely love to place me permanently on the team after my current contract ended. My contract actually ends next week, and after meeting with them on Monday, they told me that they extended my temp contract until November, which left me a little disappointed. They jokingly told me during our discussion about the contract extension that they “hope I don’t have another job”. I was told that they would have a review to talk about a permanent full-time role for me next month, including other areas of interest within the company if I wanted (which is what was said to me previous as well), but I still definitely felt extremely valued and appreciated for my work!

    The next day, I received a notification on a job board for a posting that matched my qualifications and skill set… and it turned out to be the exact job that I’m currently in, except it’s for permanent placement. Although the wording is a little different, I know that it’s 100% this position, because the responsibilities are very specific/niche, and it describes my day-to-day to a T. I’m feeling a bit discouraged, as my temp contract was extended rather than converting into a permanent offer as I’d hoped.

    I, of course, have been interviewing and seeking other potential opportunities outside as well, to protect myself in the event that things fall through after all.

    Am I perhaps reading too much into this situation?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think you are reading too much into it.

      The way I see it – they aren’t 100% sure they’re going to hire you. And they aren’t 100% sure you’re going to take the job. So they’re putting an ad out so they can get some other candidates into the pipeline. Your manager may not be the one who’s making this call, it could be standard procedure for corporate HR to do this.

    2. The Smiling Pug*

      No, I don’t think you’re reading too much into it. It’s really underhanded, but the company is trying to get rid of you by advertising your position. Personally, I would get out of there before someone else showed up and kicked me out.

      1. Carol*

        Is it underhanded if it’s temp to perm but perm just got moved back? The nature of the contract is temporary–I don’t think you can frame it as “getting rid of you” exactly.

        1. The Smiling Pug*

          Upon re-reading the initial comment, I think I may have answered a bit hastily on the negative side. I think it could go either way, honestly, IDK. But the joke about “hope you’re not looking for another job” kinda stood out.

    3. Carol*

      Just tell them you got the alert and ask them if they recommend you apply for it, or if they’re looking for something different. You weren’t snooping, and this clearly isn’t a secret!

      There’s a possibility this posting is meant for you, but if so they should have mentioned it, unless someone in HR got ahead of schedule. You’re not wrong to be confused, but don’t jump to the worst conclusion yet.

    5. Zephy*

      The notification was for your exact role at your same company?

      If you want to stay in this role…why not apply for it? Plenty of places make internal applicants apply for roles the same way external hires would, presumably for documentation reasons. They may not be able to “just” “make” you perm, you might need to actually apply.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This. Before I was promoted into my current role, I spoke to the hiring manager on an informal basis, but I still had to apply for the position through our employee portal. The only thing is, HR didn’t post the position I’m currently in externally because the hiring manager already knew she was choosing me for the role.

        If your job was posted externally, OP, talk to your manager and ask if you should be applying right now. It’s possible HR posted it externally by mistake and it was supposed to be an internal posting, but you won’t know until you ask.

    6. Cat Tree*

      At my company, temp to perm is common, but they make it permanent by posting the position and having the person go through an official interview. This is also how promotions are done even for permanent employees. Maybe this job was posted specifically for you to apply but your boss forgot to explain it to you or assumed you already knew.

    7. JB*

      I’d say hold out until that meeting before you come to any conclusions.

      There’s a good chance that to get you into a permanent position, they first have to lobby HR/upper management to get a permanent position created, and there may be a policy requirement at the company that positions have to be posted, they can’t just hand it over to you. So this might all be in preperation for asking you to apply to the permanent position.

    8. identifying remarks removed*

      Can you ask the manager directly about applying? They may be required to post the job, even if they have you in mind to offer it to.

  65. Qwerty*

    Does anyone have recommendations on where to find affordable options for **Women’s** safety shoes? (steel toe or composite toe) All of the recommendations that my safety officer gave us only have men’s options – most of the safety sections for women are just a slip resistant soles. My team is getting relocated to our manufacturing building for a few months that requires safety toe shoes for anyone on site (not negotiable). I can’t seem to find any place that sells the actual shoes in the store, and fit is a huge deal since everything seems to be priced at $150 and ideally I’d have more than one pair of shoes if I’m wearing them every day. My usual style is more lightweight and girly (ballet flats from Payless and frequently wear dresses/skirts), so this is a huge switch for me and I’m completely out of my depth. Any advice or direction would be appreciated!

    1. Me*

      I don’t know what country your in, but I googled low cost woman’s safety shoes and there were quite a few options that popped up in the 40-50 dollar range. One website that came up was Safety Girl.

      You are not going to find them much cheaper than that.

      1. NotMyRealName*

        I have a pair of Safety Girls. They’re not nearly as comfortable as my Justin Ariats.

    2. Caboose*

      I keep getting facebook ads for a brand called Xena– no personal experience, since I don’t need safety boots, but they look pretty cute to me! Maybe heavier weight than flats, but some of the lower-cut booties look like they’d be adorable with dresses!

        1. Caboose*

          I’ve found that that’s just the cost of good-quality shoes, unfortunately. I have permanent nerve damage from wearing cheaper shoes; I think it’s worth investing in a more expensive shoe even if you aren’t relying on it to keep your toes from being smushed. Shoes are one of those things where you really get what you paid for.
          Affordable also varies from person to person; seeing as Qwerty referenced seeing shoes in the $150 range, it seems like $180 for a pair of booties isn’t an unreasonable increase.

            1. Qwerty*

              Most likely I’m only going to be using them frequently for the next 3months. After that the projection is that I’ll only need them 1-3 days a month. If this turns out to become a long term need then I’d shell out for more expensive shoes but I’d really need to know that they fit well and are worth it. And be able to wait for a good sales to mitigate the price.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Make sure the place you order from has free returns (especially shipping) for size adjustment. The design will be a lot sturdier than a ballet flat for sure, as they have to protect your whole foot.
      You may want to call the supplier and talk through your particular size concerns before you order — they might be able to suggest specific shoes for your particular needs.

      And don’t be afraid to adjust comfort with orthotics and inserts! They’re a lifesaver.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      (not a woman)
      I know my brand of choice (Keens) has cap toe and shanked workboots for both men and women. They’re a little pricey (~$180 USD) but they’re wonderfully comfortable.

    5. Charlotte*

      Try searching for “steel toe sneakers women”. Found results on DSW and Walmart. There are a lot of sneaker brands that make steel toes, like Reebok, Sketchers, Puma.

      1. Qwerty*

        I didn’t think about non-shoe store places! Looks like my closest store has several options that are really affordable, thank you!

        1. acmx*

          A bit late. I have the Bramha that look like…Vans? Sneakers anyway. They’re comfy but I don’t have to wear them daily. But I wore them for a full day shop visit and they didn’t give me pain really (I have mild PF)

        2. AcademiaNut*

          I had to buy emergency* steel toed boots at Walmart. They had very little in actual women’s sizes, but I found some comfortable hiking boot style ones in a small men’s size which were acceptable, for under 50 USD. I was looking for something with ankle support for use in subzero weather, in a hard-hat zone, however, which meant that more casual/pretty styles weren’t an option.

          *The boots we had were steel toed, but not compliant with the electrical safety requirements of the site, hence the emergency Walmart trip.

    7. Student*

      Mine are Carolina-brand. Bought them online. I, too, couldn’t find any women’s hard-toe safety shoes in retail stores. To my utter disgust and absolute rage, the retail stores near me carried children’s hard-toe shoes, next to the adult men’s versions, but did not carry adult women’s versions.

      Despite that, I tried on all the ones that were even remotely close to my size, and none of the small men’s or large children’s shoes came close to fitting correctly.

      The Carolina shoes work pretty well for me. They fit great when I first got them. They’re now quite old and starting to cause me blisters so need to be replaced now, but they lasted plenty long (about 5-6 years) and ticked the safety box. You may need to buy a couple different sizes or models to get the right fit, then return the rejects.

      The ones I got are heavy, despite being carbon composite – they have very hefty safety non-slip soles. I think you can get models that are lighter now, and I recommend you consider that option if you will wear them frequently and aren’t working with slip risks.

    8. RosenGilMom*

      you may want to investigate, since the company is requiring boots for safety reasons, is there company reimbursement available to (help) offset the cost. A previous company of mine allowed something like $100 annually to purchase safety footwear for use on work sites.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        This is how I wound up with my Red Wings boots twenty years ago. They’re in for re-sole-ing as that’s falling apart…but that’s my only complaint over the course of twenty years. And I work in a field where they are worn quite a bit.

    9. Boot Haver*

      Really good quality safety shoes do tend to run more expensive, unfortunately. I have a set of ATAC boots and I think they were ~$110? They’ve lasted several years so far and are a little scuffed from use but otherwise I expect them to last me many more.

    10. anonymath*

      Red Wing certainly has women’s steel-toed but I don’t know if they’ll match your style. I like my Red Wings. They’re a heavy-duty shoe but surprisingly comfortable for that (usually I wear minimalist shoes).

    13. No more Vogon poetry, please*

      +1 for the Safety Girl Brand, they’re made for women’s feet and there are several retailers which carry them that will accept returns. They tend to run under $100. Amazon Prime wardrobe also allows for free returns after trying on shoes. Brahma is another under $100 brand which has women’s steel toe, work shoes. I’ve had good experiences with both brands in the past. Walmart will ship to a local store for free of anything from their website. If you do not wish to use a big retailer, then just searching for women’s safety boots and a brand will pull up an online retailer. Wolverine, Caterpillar, and Carhartt also have women’s lines run around $100. Anything you purchase for around $100 or under from these brands will last you in heavy work for over a year to two years without the soles delaminating from my experience. Redwing, Danner, Ariat’s are more expensive but will usually last three plus years.
      YMMV- I do not have issues with my feet, so any of the cheaper brands have worked fine for me; my male spouse does have foot/hip/back issues and Redwings are the brand he swears by.

    14. Skeeder Jones*

      I used to need safety shoes but don’t any longer. I’ve found some on Amazon (ones that look like the typical construction boot but pink – got tons of compliments on those even from men), Kohl’s and DSW. Honestly, I felt like a bad ass in my steel toe boots! They are heavy, there’s no doubt about that, nothing similar to ballet flats, but there are a bunch with a sneaker-look to them.

      I am in a totally different industry and job now (went from water conservation at a water utility to an Instructional Designer at a healthcare co) but I still have 2 pairs of them with the thought that I never know what the future holds.

      The cheapest pair I found was $70 for the ones on Amazon but I got reimbursed for them so that wasn’t necessarily an issue for me. My employer gave me a $150 budget. If your work is requiring them, I recommend checking to see if they will reimburse you for them.

    15. Snark No More!*

      Have you tried a motorcycle shop? They typically have at least some options for women. Larger city may be better than rural, but not necessarily.

  66. AnotherSarah*

    I am REALLY confused about tax deductions for home offices. I (luckily) have a completely dedicated home office room, and while I have a work office, even before the pandemic I was about half-half in-office and WFH. Now I’m more like 80% WFH. I know the regulations have changed recently; is anyone else having a hard time figuring out if they can claim a deduction?

    2. WellRed*

      I can’t offer advice except to say, my understanding is that pretty much all those types of deductions went poof! Yes

    3. Lifelong student*

      CPA here- employees can no longer deducted non-reimbursed expenses on federal returns. Independent contractors may be able to but the area must be the principal place of work and be exclusively used for business- no personal use allowed at all. State laws may vary.

  67. Don't Want to Share Social Media*

    We’ve talked before about companies hoping to co-opt their employees personal social media – this is especially tough in my sector, non-profit, where people are expected to sort of live the mission so of *course* you’re thrilled to re-post every fundraiser, flyer or announcement. I have always tried to redirect to linkedin or pretend I don’t have a social media (at least my facebook is not under my exact name, so this is easier). Well, I also have a side-hustle that has NOTHING to do with my job – imagine, I’m a mural painter, but I work for a child welfare org – that has its own social media platform. Not very big, but that’s about as big as the nonprofit’s own. Unfortunately, my current org has found out about this and are eager to co-opt that platform (tagging me there in their posts etc). Is there a way to I explain that posting about child education doesn’t really fit with the brand of street murals? My SM is public so it’s not like I could stop them from finding or following me, and unfortunately I used a recognizable version of my name for those platforms (I have to, so new clients can find me). This is not going to go away on its own.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If they pay attention to what posts have traction, then hopefully they’ll give up after a few months of posting on StreetMuralWorl.org. But if they carpetbomb social media and don’t bother figuring out what works, you may be stuck with it. Does this platform let you block other users from tagging you?

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      Have they directly asked/ordered you to share via your side hustle feed, or just implied it? With implied (but inappropriate) requests, I’ve found the best way to deal with them is to smile and ignore. Often people who will hint aren’t shameless enough to come out and directly say it.

      If they’re directly asking you, then you should explain directly that your street mural account is a business account and that the business policy is to only share social media content that fits with your brand. (If they really push, you could always say that you have a policy of charging for promotion for off-brand content.)

      (As a side note, people who think *any* share on social media is worthwhile really don’t understand social media! Why would your mural clients care about your child welfare work, indeed? That’s really not going to help your nonprofit.)

    3. Lebkin*

      I would simply block their account from your social media account. Its a separate business, and it is unrelated to your core job. If anyone asks, tell them that it’s not a personal account but a business so you’re avoiding mixing the two companies together.

    4. RagingADHD*

      “This is not my persinal account, it’s for mural painting, and I curate my profile to only deal with things related to that work.”

      On FB you can adjust settings so that tags will not automatically post to your feed. They go to a “review” section, and you can keep them hidden.

  68. just a small town girl*

    I need some help calibrating my expectations. My org has had a ton of change lately, most of it stemming from COVID and our ED retiring and her replacement coming on board and the changes rippling out from that and our inability to hire in a timely manner.

    My director Mary is being moved under another higher level director, Liz, instead of reporting straight to the ED(not a demotion, just a shuffle), and part of that is that I’ll still support Mary but I’ll also support another director under Liz, Jennifer. I’ve already started supporting Jennifer, in addition to Mary and my previous team(I used to just do Mary and my other team). And helping out doing part of the work of a support staff who left in June and hasn’t been replaced yet. And we just found out this week that another support staff member under my director is leaving and my director and I will apparently be expected to do her full time external-facing job until we can hire a replacement.

    So I’m doing my old job, 1/2 of my new job, 1/3rd of another person’s job, and will need to cover for another person’s work starting next week and going until who knows when. I’m starting to reach the end of my rope. I’m a known high-achiever but my work has been mediocre at best because of how thin I’m feeling stretched. Mary is deeply sympathetic and feeling the stretch as well; she’s quit giving me things if she can at all help it and is working 60-70 hours to try to get everything done. But it’s not really helping me feel less chaotic and I just don’t know what to do. This job has been amazing with flexibility for my schooling, but I feel taken advantage of and demoralized. It’s truly an environment where you’re shown competency and then given so much to do that you can’t do any of it well. If I go to Liz to ask how to handle too much to do she’ll just say to prioritize things and get what needs to be done first done first. As though I’m not already doing that.

    Typing this out I realize I don’t need calibration; this is crazy. It’s too much. It’s more than I can handle. But I can’t be without a job and I am surprisingly paid pretty well for this kind of work. But no amount of money will fix the fact that there is more to do than there are hours in the week. Guess I just needed to vent.

    1. WellRed*

      No, what you need to do is talk to your boss and lay this out. It doesn’t sound like you have done that at all.

    2. OtterB*

      I’d lay it out for your manager with data as much as possible: Here’s the task list, here’s the amount of time I’ve spent in the past two weeks on A, B, C, and D. J, K, L, and M aren’t getting done because there’s just not time. Adding coverage for the staffer who just left means that D and half of C won’t get done either. Is there any way to get some assistance for some of these tasks, or should I prioritize things differently?

    3. Ron McDon*

      You need a new job :(

      I’m in a similar situation – more work to do than hours/staff to do it.

      My boss has said ‘just do what you can, if stuff doesn’t get done then it doesn’t get done’… but then comes to me saying this or that needs to be done, and so does everything else!

      I’m looking for another job, as it’s unsustainable to have this level of work/stress, and I recommend you do the same. They’ve still not replaced someone who left in *June*?! They’re thinking you and your boss can cope so why spend the money replacing that person?

    4. Dancing Otter*

      This is why temp agencies exist. They need to get someone to cover for the people who left/are leaving who haven’t been replaced yet. Those are open positions, not extras.

  69. B*

    How does one approach asking for a raise when the money might just not be there?

    In my heart of hearts I know the answer is “find another job” but I’m six years into a very niche and desirable field and just got my masters in the subject matter – jobs don’t come up very often and I really love this line of work, so it would take me a while to find a comparable position. But I am extremely underpaid (even compared to similar organizations); I started as a volunteer seven years ago and worked my way up – it would probably take a 20% increase (or more, honestly) to bring me up to market rate. We’re in a very high COL area, and I can’t make it work for much longer.

    I love my boss (and admittedly I’m probably one of his most valued employees) and lately he’s made offhand remarks like “please don’t leave” in a joking tone, and “if I could pay you more I already would.” So he’s aware that at this point in my career it would make sense to be looking, and I know from conversations with others in management that an increase of the size I need might not be in the cards after the pandemic. So how do I even have this conversation without framing it as “pay me more or we both know I’ll have to leave eventually”, even though that’s the subtext of the conversation and we both know it? When we both want me to stay longer term, but the cash just isn’t there? How do you even discuss that? We’re on good terms, do I ask for him to act as a reference for me (we are in a VERY small field so having him as a reference would be invaluable, and it might also be difficult to keep a long term job search from eventually getting back to him)? I’d be willing to wait another six months or a year for an increase if I knew it was coming, and I would take a little less if I could make some adjustments to my title and job description, but a girl has to eat!

    1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      Is the money REALLY not there, or it is that it would take a fair bit of work on your boss’s part to get it? He may not have the authority to raise your salary on your own, but could he expend some political capital with the powers that be to get the raise?
      Part of the equation is, how well do you know your boss? Do you know *for sure* that your boss has actually lobbied for a raise for you? Not just made one inquiry, but had put actually effort in attempting to get you a raise?
      Based on what you’re relaying, it sounds like your boss is trying to guilt-trip you into leaving rather than make an actual effort to get you a raise.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      If your boss is saying “if I could pay you more I already would” and in joking way that’s pointing to an actual dearth of funds, then I don’t think asking for more money with even the implicit threat of leaving is worth it.

      There are several possibilities here:
      * Even though your boss is making those jokes, there actually is money, so you should ask for a raise
      * There isn’t any way you’ll get a raise, but you can ask for something else that may be of benefit to you that isn’t actual cash
      * You apply for another job and leave, even if you have a niche field and will have a hard time finding another position

      That said, when you say it’s possible “the cash just isn’t there,” is your org on the brink of bankruptcy? Because I’ve worked in places that are flush with cash, places that are tight with cash but functional, and places that are this close to dissolving. Chances are, if you’re in a place that’s tight with cash, the budget would still allow for you to get a raise if the org considered it a real priority.

    3. BRR*

      Even if you think the answer is no I’d still just follow Alison’s asking for a raise script. And they might make a way to find the money if you ask. Even employers without a lot of spare cash somehow find ways to pay for extra things. Sometimes it takes asking to free up that money. And if he says no are there other things that could entice you to stay? More vacation time? A flexible schedule? As you mentioned, transferring some things from you to someone else? Have those ideas ready if you get turned down from a monetary raise.

      I probabaly wouldn’t ask him to be a reference (for all the reasons you usually don’t) unless he’s frequently demonstrated that he will be a good reference and not push people out.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      If he’s already making remarks about it, that’s when you approach him. “I believe you when you say you’d pay me more if you could, but you realize I’m already being paid way below the market rate, right? And I can’t afford to accept that long-term.”

      1. Lizzie*

        So if you leave, will they offer the same inadequate salary in the advertisement for your replacement, do you reckon? I doubt it, but I am pretty cynical about these things!

  70. Neon Dreams*

    Has anyone found any value in courses taken on Udemy or Coursera? I wasn’t thinking of putting it on my resume since I’d gotten an impression from previous open threads they weren’t all that impressive to potential employers.

    1. not a doctor*

      Udemy: no. Coursera: it depends. They host MOOCs run by legitimate universities and some corporations, so if you can say that you completed a Llama Training course run by the University of Llamas through Coursera, that might be worth something. I was switching careers and had a couple of completed Coursera courses on my resume, and I think that helped.

    3. Skeeder Jones*

      I’ve taken a number of Udemy courses but they were all for learning software basically (Articulate, Sharepoint, advanced Excel, etc) and aren’t things I would put on my resume other than to say how i’ve used them in my job, with examples. Whether or not you they add to your resume may depend on your field and what the norms are

  71. PookieLou*

    Has anyone here heard of the “overemployment” trend? I saw an article pop up about it in my news feed yesterday, and I knew I had to bring it up in the open thread. Apparently, people are secretly working 2 full-time WFH jobs and they view it as a kind of “life hack” for better financial security. As long as they can do the bare minimum each job requires, what’s the issue, right? There’s even a podcast about it, branding it as empowering, and they want to help other people become overemployed themselves. I went to the comments section and holy cow, only a couple people had anything to say against this! Almost everyone said something like, “If you can make it work, more power to you!” “This is genius!” “I have to give this a try!” “Just don’t violate any non-compete agreement.” There seems to be this attitude that it doesn’t hurt anyone because business owners are either too wealthy to be affected, or immoral crooks who deserve to be cheated anyway, so whatever. Who are you to judge if someone’s merely doing what they gotta do?

    What. The. Actual. Hell. So many thoughts that I need to bring to the AAM peanut gallery! This can’t be legal, can it? It’s so obviously unethical! Especially with all of the *everything* going on right now, this is EMPOWERING??!! Not for people struggling to find work. Not when higher-ups get the wrong idea about employee satisfaction because they have no idea what’s actually going on. Not from honest employees whose WFH benefits will be at risk if this becomes a large trend. Not the business owners with distracted employees barely doing the minimum. How is this not straight-up theft??!! Folks, I am baffled. I am eager to hear what you all (and hopefully Allison?) have to say about this one. I have a feeling this comment section may have a different vibe.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I can’t see how 80 hours/week is sustainable for anyone. Even medical residents aren’t supposed to work those hours anymore week in and week out, and it’s a BIG DEAL in the medical profession about how to manage their time.

      If you are able to squeeze two full-time jobs into, say, 60 hours/week, then there is something wrong. Either you’re totally skating by on quality or depth of work, or your management(s) doesn’t understand workload and output.

      Plus I don’t see how basic logistics is going to work. If both companies had standing meetings at 9:00, what do you do? Dial into one on your phone, the other on your computer, keep yourself muted, and try to pay attention to both at the same time, and then play games with microphones and speakers to chime in for 30 seconds on one without having any background noise from the other?

      1. PookieLou*

        The point is to get paid for 2 full-time jobs, without putting in 80 hours. They’re working 2 jobs during the same workday hours without telling either employer. They fit all their tasks in by only doing the bare minimum at each job. I bet there’s a lot of scheduling tetris going on to fit in all their meetings.

    2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      I bet “overemployment” is not sustainable. At some point — sooner rather than later — it will come back to bite the person. And then what? You’ve trashed your reputation with (probably) both companies, you may get fired by one or both companies for poor performance …. And then how do you get your next job? I could see so many people ending up in a worse financial situation, after only a few months of “success.”
      From the individual employee side, this just screams gimmick and so not worth the nearly inevitable crash and burn.

    3. Overeducated*

      I find this ridiculous, but I do not understand people who say “I get my work done in only 10 hours a week” who are not in coverage-based jobs – my experience of professional white collar work is that there is always more of it than the minimum assigned to you, always ways to improve or expand or start new projects. 40 hours is never enough to cover the “nice-to-haves” and sometimes not even enough for the “must-haves,” and saying “I did what I was told” and stopping there would not be a way to do well. Someone working two full time remote jobs would make me suspicious that they were shortchanging one or both.

      1. PookieLou*

        They absolutely are shortchanging both! Every office job I’ve ever worked, even salaried, I had to track my hours. There’s no honest way to track hours this way, and it doesn’t give higher-ups accurate data to make decisions about how many employees are needed on staff, for example. If these people ever get caught, they’ll lose their jobs and burn bridges. It’s an awful idea for everyone.

      2. Kara*

        I know right? I will never be done with my work. There is always more I could do, improve, learn etc

    4. Asenath*

      It’s a cheat. No one can work two forty-hour-a-week jobs for any length of time whatsoever. Even if they manage it very short term, they’re cheating themselves (and their family, if any) out of rest, eating well, exercising and relaxing with a personal hobby. Moreover, anyone I knew who claimed to be able to do a full-time job in 10 or 20 or so hours a week has been skimping on their work – doing the bare minimum, if that, and doing that poorly, so others have to take up the slack. There are jobs that vary over the year, with some months being far busier than others – so maybe in a slack time the worker really doesn’t need to put in 40 hours a week for one job. But what is that worker going to do during busy times, when they need to put in more than 40 hours just to keep afloat, and still have 40 hours in their other job?

      1. PookieLou*

        The point is to find two 40-hour jobs that don’t ask too much of the employee, then put in as little work as possible at each so they get two paychecks for the price of one. The author seems very proud of themselves for being clever enough to pull it off. The idea is, if their boss thinks they’re doing enough to keep them on, they must be happy with their work output, so it’s not a problem. I imagine they have some crazy weeks when things get busy, but if someone is willing to go through all the trouble of being a corporate Mrs Doubtfire, I can only imagine they figure out how to make those periods work.

    5. ferrina*

      I know someone that did this. It did not end well. He technically had the time to work both jobs without scheduling conflicts (both jobs had flexible hours), so it could theoretically work but…
      The job he had at my company wasn’t actually a 40-hour job- overtime wasn’t abnormal. His work quality suffered and his main project ended up failing, but even before this the CEO found out what he was doing and unceremoniously kicked him out. We were cleaning up his mess for several months after he was gone.
      It’s worth noting that before this he had a really good reputation around my company and had been there for 2 years working just this job, and had been rising up the ranks.

    6. Daffodilly*

      Pretty sure there was a discussion on this in the open thread last week, too.
      Bad idea. Very bad idea. Going to blow up in your face level bad.

    7. Sherm*

      I think with comments sections sometimes you get the phenomenon where the first few comments express the same opinion, and anyone with a different opinion is hesitant to write because it feels like they are vastly outnumbered and they will get loudly shut down. So they stay silent while the original opinion gets expressed again and again. But in reality I believe that tons of people realize that secretly working 2 full time jobs is ethically dubious and can blow up in your face.

    8. Alex*

      I’m not sure I blame only the employees. I have a WFH job that I could totally manage two of. I can get my assigned work done as a part time job, no problem. Sure, I need to be “on” to answer questions and be reachable by my boss, but my ultimate workload would allow for much more.

      This is my employer’s fault–they dont’ realize how underutilized I am. I’ve tried taking on more responsibilities and have gotten push back. My boss tells me she doesn’t want to overwork me. My colleagues who all have smaller workloads than I do complain about their large workloads, so I’m not believed when I say I have more capacity. My job only expects X, but I have the capacity for X + Y. It’s not my fault that they won’t accept Y from me. If I had the opportunity to get paid to do Y from someone else….I don’t see how that is unethical. My employer is paying me for X, I give them X. I’m an exempt employee, so what difference does it make how long it takes for me to do that work?

      I’ve recently read the book “Bulls**t Jobs,” which is a really excellent read on modern work. One point made by the author is that the exchange of TIME for money, rather than a product or service, is a relatively recent development that in earlier times would have been viewed as extremely offensive. Why does an employer basically own you for a certain amount of hours per day, especially if you are an exempt employee being paid to produce work rather than provide a timed service? If two people paint 10 teapots, and one of them takes a whole day and the other takes half a day and then sells spoons for the other half of the day, why should the second person be viewed as behaving unethically, as long as the teapots are of the same quality? Why is it their responsibility to paint 10 more teapots just because they are being paid for the day? To me, THAT is more unethical!

      And sure, in some places, the person who can paint 20 teapots in a day may get more bonuses or promotions or raises or whatever….but in so many places, that’s simply not true. I know it isn’t true where I work, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.

      I’m not saying that working two jobs at the same time is always ethical…I’m just saying that I think it can be complicated and depend on circumstances.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^I could have written a lot of this. I would not take a second full-time job (and certainly never with overlapping hours, which IS unethical, while 80-hour weeks without overlapping hours are merely exhausting if they are true 80-hours-of-work weeks), but many many days, even taking on multiple extra projects outside the scope of my role, I have so soooooo much down time. I honestly think that a big piece of it is I just…work faster and more efficiently than many of my peers. A number of them complain about having “too much” workload when from everything I can see they don’t have nearly as much as I do and often less complex projects (I am THE go-to person for “this is complicated, who can we trust to get this done right?”). I will note, this varies a great deal by role – I do admin work supporting lawyers and even with reaching out to solicit work, my workload is highly dependent on what they pass to me to handle, which sometimes is VERY little. If you work, say, in a call center where staffing is kept at a bare minimum to handle the call volume, or as a project manager handling several extensive projects at once, this would very likely never be the case for you even if you are more efficient than your peers.

        But I will say, indeed, it is sometimes frustrating to get paid the same amount for 30 completed widgets that took me 6 hours in my 8 hour day versus my peer who completed 20 widgets in their “so busy” 8 hour day (and would be MUCH more frustrating if the metric we were judged on, as layers and other time-billed folks are, was “billable hours” where essentially you get penalized for working faster…)

      2. Elenna*

        Yeah, my current job isn’t like this but I’ve definitely had jobs in the past where I’ve been like “Boss, I did all the coding stuff you assigned me, is there anything else that needs doing” and they’ve just been like “no, sorry” and I wasn’t experienced enough to find stuff to improve on my own. For that matter, I know there were a couple times at my current job when my boss said “hey, is there anything on your plate that can be done by [co-op student], they’re out of work”. I think this is particularly likely to happen with interns since they a) can’t necessarily help with high-level projects and b) don’t have the experience to find projects to work on. So it’s not always true that there’s always stuff to work on to fill 40 hours.

        On the other hand, in both those cases there were times when there was plenty of work to fill the day, so even if you got two jobs like that, what happens when they both give you plenty of work on the same day? Or, as other have said, what about overlapping meetings? Definitely not saying that working two full-time jobs is a good idea, just wanted to push back on the “there’s always plenty of work” idea.

    9. Filosofickle*

      I think this is the kind of “trend” that’s entirely overblown for the sake of clickbait that gets people riled up. Yes some people are doing it but how many? Not a lot I bet. It’s not a trend. It’s something that has happened.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I also doubt many workers are doing this because it’s pretty hard to pull off two full time jobs.
        You have to consider the agenda of the publication as well.
        I notice right-leaning or pro-business publishers like the WSJ push stories that promote a “back to the office” agenda that makes it appear people HATED being shifted to WFH and are pining for the office again. This was a story designed to strike fear into management that their WFH employees are screwing them over.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Agreed. I decided not to opine about it being an agenda-driven narrative but I had exactly the same interpretation.

    10. It all started with a goat*

      I know someone who did this in a lab environment. He worked first shift somewhere that was having layoffs and fully expected to get laid off. He found a new second shift job and kept going to the first one in order to get the severance package with his layoff. When the layoff didn’t happen he just…kept doing both for years. I can’t imagine it went well, but he does still have the second job (but eventually gave up the first).

    11. fhqwhgads*

      This is being reported on as though it’s way more common than it is. Businesses that are actually set up for WFH, and know how to manage remote employees would see right through this. Maybe some companies that are only remote due to pandemic and also have shitty accountability in the first place could fall victim to this, but any business that can actually measure output and performance would either be able to tell or would view the person as a crap performer and they wouldn’t last long anyway. Yes, some people are doing it intentionally. That’s always been true. Just like some people take 3 hour lunches every day even for an in-person job, or who spend all day on their phones. Crappy employees are crappy employees. They just have another avenue of being crappy available to them at the moment.

    13. hmmph*

      I find articles on this topic utterly infuriating. They take some that maybe a handful of people are actually doing, and blow it so far out of proportion that it looks like an actual trend. It is deeply irresponsible, and other than it being clickbait, the only other thing I can put it down to is this utterly revolting “anti-remote work” rubbish being pushed by vested interests like commercial property landlords, old school employers, and control-freak bosses.

  72. AndersonDarling*

    Any Toastmasters here? I’ve been interested and visited (virtually) two local clubs, but they were very casual and I’m hoping to join a more formal group. I used the toastmasters website to search for clubs and reached out to a few more but never heard back. I’m actually getting a bit frustrated.
    Now I’m thinking Toastmasters may not be the best route for me. Maybe there are virtual classes for public speaking that would suit me better. I’ve taken classes previously and was looking to refine my skills and get some practice. I see some TED Talk style speeches in my future and I want to be ready.
    Has anyone else gone through a public speaking journey?

    1. angstrom*

      There was a Toastmasters chapter at one of my previous jobs. I found it to be helpful, and saw some real improvement in some of the other participants.

      My local chapter is meeting virtually now. I know that online speaking skills are important, but for me it’s not as enjoyable as meeting in-person.

    2. Librarygal30*

      Are you looking for a general Toastmasters Club, or an advanced one? Every club is different, and will give a different feel to the participants. Most general Toastmasters clubs don’t offer experience giving long talks, while there are a few that do. I think an advanced club would be a better fit. If you are interested, we can discuss this over email, if you like?

  73. Tentative Networker*

    Any advice on how to begin networking for a new job when your boss is very much a part of that network? I work in a pretty specific and small field (both geographically and in substance), and my boss founded the company I work for, so is pretty emotionally invested in it. My boss also frequently makes comments about how they really need me to stick around, or will otherwise “joke” that they’ll need to work double time to make sure I never leave if XYZ dream role in our field opens up. So it’s pretty clear to me that expressing any type of interest in leaving would not go over well.

    That said, the culture of the company has shifted significantly lately as business has picked up and the workplace has grown. Some of this is just the natural effect of growing, but some of it is deliberate choices made by management (including my boss) that have made work really unfulfilling and increased burn out. So I’ve decided to at least dip my toe into job searching, with first reaching out to my network for casual phone calls/coffee. My issue then is that a lot of my network is very close to my boss, and I worry that if word gets back that I’m looking elsewhere, it could damage the very relationships I’d be relying on for a new job. So, any advice? Am I overthinking it?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m not really sure about the networking, but for damage control for your boss- have you mentioned the issues that are causing your unhappiness? If you haven’t mentioned it, give your boss a head’s up that it’s causing issues for you. That way (if your boss is reasonable), they will understand why you are leaving and what they couldn’t do.
      I did a similar approach when I left Old Job, and everyone was unsurprised and very understanding (and I wasn’t forced out either).

      Good luck!!

    2. GNG*

      I would say you’re definitely not overthinking it. I also work in a very small field. Discretion in job searches is super important.

      If someone were poking around their network for new job in my field, it’s common to say: I’m reaching out because I’m putting out feelers for a new position, I’m hoping you might have some pointers for me. But I also know you have this XYX connection with my Boss. Can we keep our communications strictly confidential?

      If both parties continue to explore, typically it is well understood that as far as both parties are concerned, our conversations never happened. After speaking, it’s also common to give a reminder to please maintain confidentiality. Leakers in this field will certainly earn themselves a poor reputation. I wonder if your field might have a similar convention as well?

  74. DarthWelder*

    Over time at work I’ve taken on lots of additional responsibilities outside of my job description and had been in talks with my boss about a raise and new title to reflect this. I was told today that neither will be happening, because I’m ‘overqualified’ for my job and that’s not the company’s issue. My question is how to pull back from all the extra responsibilities I had taken on, now that it’s clear my company won’t be compensating me for it? There is no goodwill on my side about this as I feel I was misled about the likelihood of the raise and new title, but I also don’t want to burn bridges yet and become a ‘that’s not my job’ person. Insights welcome!

    1. Magda*

      A) definitely job search hard. You should be able to leverage all your experience and accomplishments into the job they should have given you. This may also make you feel less bitter about the extra work, particularly if it’s at all interesting – it’s setting you up for your next role, which is hopefully extremely soon.
      B) I think if I were you I’d focus on the work hours thing. “I’m finding I’m not able to accomplish my tasks in the 40 hours of my workweek. I can do X or Y, but not both – which is priority?” And then anytime something new comes up, drop something else. If you formerly worked more than 40 hours, you don’t do that anymore. You can create a pretext for why you need to start pushing back if you like (“I promised my wife, my doctor told me to, I’ve taken up a new hobby”) if you think that would help smooth the way. But the best revenge will be finding a lucrative new role that appreciates you and walking.

    2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      “Unfortunately, I do not have time to take on ___.” “Due to my workload, I can no longer handle ____.” Or if it’s your manager bugging you to keep doing everything, tell them you do not have the time to do A, B, and C, and you can do two, but not all three.

      You are now a *very* busy person, and no one needs to know that the reason why you can’t take this stuff on anymore is because you are enforcing boundaries and spending your non-work hours doing whatever it is you want to do.

      Be very polite, very firm, and resist all temptation to over-explain. In fact, keep it as short and vague as reasonably possible. Being polite and keeping your tone warm and even will get you pretty far.

    3. CatCat*

      Definitely job search highlighting the work you are doing that is beyond what your title reflects. You working at a higher level is not your current company’s problem? Then it should not be your problem either.

      I am TOTALLY baffled by the company’s response. It’s really confusing. I think you can lean into that. “Boss, we’d been talking about a raise and title change to reflect the new responsibilities I have taken on. I understand now that the company will not be doing that because they say I’m ‘overqualified for my job.’ I am not sure I understand what that means. It sounds like maybe I’m doing something wrong here. Can we go through my current responsibilities and job description to make sure my work is focused on what I’m qualified to do in the scope of my current title and remove work the company thinks is out of scope?”

    4. Zephy*

      I’d want to respond to requests to handle responsibilities outside my job description with “the company is understaffed and that’s not my issue,” but I’m tough in my head and petty as hell.

    5. Pocket Mouse*

      I’d consider taking an approach where you outline:
      1. Job description I was hired for included responsibilities A-E
      2. Over time, I’ve taken on extra responsibilities F-J
      3. It was recently confirmed the applicable title change isn’t happening
      4. I’d like to make sure we’re all on the same page about which responsibilities are, in fact, part of my job description and which are more suited to [title you’ve been told you’re not getting]
      5. If any of F-J stick, reiterate that these represent extra responsibilities that were not reflected in the job description when hired at this salary
      6. [If responsibilities that stick are significant enough] How do we work toward bringing compensation in line to reflect this?

      But yes, start searching too. Hopefully a conversation like this will prevent other, new responsibilities from falling on you while you’re searching.

  75. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

    Short version: looking for “parent working outside the home” motivation.

    Longer version: I was very happy in my career before I became a parent. I’ve always been a hardliner on work-life balance, so it wasn’t my whole life, but I enjoyed going to work, I knew what my career ambitions were, and I enjoyed working towards them. (At least, I think I did. It’s hard to say in retrospect if I really enjoyed them or just thought I was because I thought I was supposed to and didn’t have a large social network outside of work.) Once I became a parent, it’s like a flip switched. My long-buried dreams of SAHM life flooded my brain full-force and have not relented in the several years since. It’s been a really miserable time at work since then.

    However, being WFH for several months last year and then hybrid since then, in conjunction with therapy, have really helped me reframe the thinking about work and I’m in a much better place about it. Additionally, my spouse and I have a 4-5 year plan for trying to transition me from working outside the home to living my best “wow! laundry done more often than every 4 weeks and also our child has a parent to interact with during work hours!” life. Having a finish line in sight for this season of my life (I am guessing I may wish to return to the workforce once my current and future children are raised) is also really helping. So, instead of dreading every day of the next few years, I want to spend this time leaning into the reality that this is the “mom who is a literal boss” chapter of my story and find as much satisfaction in it as I can. Which brings me to my question: parents who work outside the home, what do you like about it? Where do you find satisfaction, appreciation for your life including both your career and parenthood, dare I suggest joy? Many thanks!

    (And, no, the irony of my username when Jean struggled so badly to give up work is not lost on me!)

    1. Carol*

      I was getting really miserable until the pandemic made remote work possible. The workday/commute/no time with kiddo except appointments/rinse/repeat cycle was awful. It’s a lot better now that I can work from home and spend that extra time with my kid (as well as, you know, do laundry, etc.)

      But when things still get hectic now I try to be grateful I can provide a roof over my kids’ head and we can save for education, etc., and that we can pay for day care with qualified, caring caregivers and social interaction and activities I don’t necessarily have daily energy for. I try to be grateful I have the structure of another pursuit–I’d like more time at home but don’t think I’m suited for full time SAHM life. I’m glad I have an identity outside of being MOM, because that can be all-consuming and overwhelming.

    2. OtterB*

      Seconding Carol on the value of having an identity outside of being “Mom.” Also, for me, it’s a matter of using my skills. I like to use these analytical skills, and in my experience full-time parenting doesn’t. I like my kids (who are now in their 20s) and I enjoyed time with them, but there were areas of satisfaction they didn’t hit. At the time they were young, I’m thinking back to things I found satisfying at work. Writing projects I finished and, in a few cases, presented at conferences. A couple of products my old organization used for years after I left. Mentoring of younger staff.

      I did drop to part time for several years. One kid had developmental delays and had a lot of therapy appointments, and my husband was traveling a lot for work, and it just wasn’t doable. I actually took about a 2 month unpaid leave of absence at one point because I was feeling burned out. But … it didn’t help much. I told them when I came back to work that I had discovered that the stressor was being Mom, and I couldn’t take a leave of absence from that, so I might as well come back to work.

    3. Ins mom*

      You think you are busy when they are little, but that’s nothing compared to when they are middle-sized! I was lucky to never have a long commute,and a skill set and network that allowed for years of part time. We lived pretty cheaply for a few years there, but work-life balance means more than $$

      1. allathian*

        Depends on what you mean by middle-sized. My son’s in 6th grade, and before the pandemic he had a couple hobbies (a martial art and scouts). My husband’s the parent involved in the scouts and the martial art thing was at the same place and with the same instructor who ran my tai chi group, so we’d go there together, I’d sit and scroll on my phone while he was doing his thing, and he’d sit and do homework/read a comic/play on his phone while I did mine. It helped that he had another kid in his group whose dad was in my tai chi group, so he had company.

        As the parent, you have the right to decide that you aren’t going to set a full schedule for your kids (and yourself) every day. There’s a reason why that tiny minority of kids who become successful pro athletes thank their parents for their sacrifices, but as the parent you have the right to decide that you aren’t up for that.

        I guess I’m lucky in that academic achievement is the only thing that counts for college admissions in my area, so that’s one more reason not to fill the kids’ schedule with extracurricular after extracurricular, certainly not in elementary school.

        I took two years and a few months’ maternity leave when my son was born. It’s about par for the course here, some parents take more, others take less, and in some families parents split the leave more evenly than we did. My husband’s salary is almost twice as high as mine, so it made financial sense for my family for me to take most of the leave. I did a 6-hour day until my son’s 3rd birthday. While I was happy that I didn’t have to work when my son was really small, I’ll be frank and admit that I think I’m a better mom because I’m working, and have a role beyond parent/spouse.

  76. RussianInTeaxs*

    Are resume writing (helping, not completely writing from scratch) services are ever any good or helpful?
    I need to get out of my company. I have zero trust in my ability to create a decent resume. Last time, ironically, it was one of the placement companies that was mentioned this morning, that helped me.
    I am terrible at the “business speak”. Terrible. Writing a resume and/or cover letter paralyzes me.

    1. WellRed*

      Following. How does one vet such a company? I’m thinking it might give me the kick in the pants I need (last job searched 16 years ago). Even if I had a copy of my resume it would be useless.

    2. ferrina*

      Resume services can be really good at creating a resume, especially if the thing you most want help with is the layout. I still use the layout that a company made for me 10+ years ago!

      Do NOT use an external service for a cover letter. A cover letter is also showcasing your communication style. You really, really don’t want to get in to a situation where you’re expected to communicate in the same way as someone else’s cover letter.

      One trick I used was to have a template cover letter. I wrote 4-5 paragraphs focusing on different skills that I have. Each paragrph featured a short story where I used the skill and got great results. Then when I was applying to a job, I’d grab 2-3 of those paragraphs based on what that particular job was looking for. It really helped not to always have to write my cover letter from scratch.

    3. Biased*

      Biased because I am married to a resume writer. She gets a lot of feedback from her clients that they found the experience really valuable. And when she redid my resume, I did find that the way she worded everything really boosted my confidence in my own skills and that carried through to the interview. So I think they can be worth it. She has worked for “resume factories” like Monster as well as expensive boutique firms, and in all of those situations, I have gotten the impression that your experience is going to be directly tied to the writer you are working with. The expensive firms probably give a much better chance of getting matched with someone good, but I have still heard her talk about poor writers at those places, too.

      1. WellRed*

        Is asking to look at some if their work a thing. I’m definitely considering that it’s worthwhile to pay more.

        1. Biased*

          I think it is a thing in the industry writ large, but different companies/writers will handle it differently. There are also lots of freelance writers who won’t be bound by whatever their company policy is.

  77. Weird Resume*

    Weird Resume*
    August 27, 2021 at 12:33 pm

    Question about how to put something on my resume:

    My last full time job was two years ago now. I freelanced fulltime for a year, wasn’t really making enough, and now I still freelance part time and added a part time job in my field. I feel like there’s a bit of a stigma around freelancing when you’re job searching, probably because a lot of people who were laid off (or fired for cause) and have been unemployed may list their gaps this way. Since my freelancing wasn’t too successful anyway I worry about looking like one of these. Since my part time job and my freelancing work overlap, how would you list this?

    Z year – present: part time job
    X year-present: freelancing
    Y year-X year: FT job

    ?

    1. ferrina*

      Your resume won’t show whether your freelancing is fulltime or part-time (in most fields), so you have the option to leave off the second PT job if it’s not related to your field.

      When I look at resumes, I notice gaps. You don’t have one here. I don’t have a stigma around freelancing and wouldn’t be put off to see a resume like this, but freelancing is also really common in my field.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Depends on the freelancing. Is the job you’re looking for now related to the freelance tasks? If so, put it first. If the PT job is more relevant, then list that first.

      Also, don’t be afraid to leave off details like “PT” and “freelance” from your work history. You can accurately report working as “Llama Groomer” at Company PT, and “Teapot Polisher” at Your Own Business Name, without getting into how many hours you worked or how you got paid.

  78. AnotherLibrarian*

    I had an experience yesterday which was new for me. I was wondering if folks had any advice. I had someone come into my work and ask to see me. We are open to the public and I’m always happy to meet with people. They had applied for an open position six months ago and they wanted advice on how to make their application stronger next time. They were gracious and at no time did I feel threatened, but the whole situation made me pretty uncomfortable, mostly because I didn’t recall their application at all. We had over 90 for the position (which I told them). I gave them the usual advice I give folks about libraries being a tough market, offered some generic application advice, recommended a few websites, ect. I think I handled it okay, but I keep wondering- is this is a normal thing that has happened to other people? Have you ever had someone come in for advice if they didn’t get a job? How did you handle it?

    1. Magda*

      This was crappy of them. Good on you for not hiring them. The correct thing to do was for them to ask for this via email, not show up where you work and put you on the spot (maybe the library thing makes it different). I think you could have also politely turned them away once you understood why they were there.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think maybe the things that’w weirding you out is the “in your workplace” part. I know that if somebody would approach me this way at a coffee shop or a backyard barbeque, it would feel perfectly normal to me.

    3. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      I’ve had this happen to me — but I work at a university, and I hire students for part-time position, so it’s not quite so weird for a student to be asking for this type of advise, because, yanno, university staff are supposed to be helpful and student-centered and all-that-jazz. That doesn’t make it OK, but it does make it more understandable.

      I think this person may have gotten some bad advice! It’s OK to tell people that you do not — or are not allowed to — provide specific advice. And it was kind of you to provide some generic advice and recommend a few resources!

      And in many situations that I run into, the reality is that the candidate wasn’t well qualified, or someone was simply better qualified and a better fit for the position. But that’s not really a helpful thing to share with someone. Our university does have some good resources for students (tho I recommend the writing center a lot more than career services), with people who are paid specifically to help students with these kinds of things, so I point students there.

      I think you handled this situation pretty much as best as you could.

  79. Tips on surviving without vacation days*

    Looking for help and advice from other people with jobs where you can’t be “off” like sales, law, etc. – what are you coping mechanisms, either at work, at home, or with your expectations for yourself? I have a commission-based job with a specialized skill where you work when your clients need you, so there’s very little concept of a vacation day or time off. Plus, things have escalated during COVID since many of my clients aren’t vacationing like they used to.

    1. ferrina*

      I’ve had set times where I would check email, and I would not touch it outside those set times.

      I also use different forms of communication for different levels of emergency. Set really clearly what kind of response time people will get- an email will get you a response within 1 day (usually within a few hours between 8am and 8pm), a phone call will get you a response now (though it had better be important, or you will have your phone privileges revoked).

      Also- tell clients that you’ll be on the beach/unplugging/what not! Some won’t care, but some will work with you to try to get you a well-deserved break (especially if you’re usually very responsive)

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      It’s difficult because all the stuff a person can do is incumbent on the person who is already stressed and over-worked. The metaphor of the canary in the coal mine does nothing to address the toxic condition of the mine, only signal when it’s (almost) too late.
      All this to say: find ways to create the coping mechanisms and integrate them now, rather than waiting.
      And good luck.

    3. PollyQ*

      I’m not understanding why you can’t ever take vacations. Will your clients really desert you if you take a week or two off? Is it possible to find a colleague to cover for you? Can you hire someone, even part-time, who can help cover while you’re away?

  80. Overeducated*

    All right y’all, I need advice on how to facilitate a meeting with someone who talks too much. We have to meet with a contractor about an important project, after I compiled some major feedback from our team for the contractor to review. The purpose of the meeting will be to clarify the feedback for the contractor and provide further instruction as needed, so we need to open up space for them to ask questions, and especially for one particular subject matter expert (SME 1) on my team to give specific instructions.

    The thing I’m worried about is there will be another subject matter expert (SME 2) present, and this person tends to kind of take over discussions and go off on tangents – tangents that are generally relevant and important, but can prevent us from addressing the questions we came for. This is someone who is senior to me (but not my boss), and previously managed a large part of a program that I’m now responsible for (the transition is taking a long time because of some major legacy projects – this person still has “x program coordinator” in the email signature even though I’m officially in the position – but I am officially the project manager on this one). This person did provide part of the extensive written feedback.

    How do I keep space open for the contractor and SME 1 to talk about what they need to cover? I don’t know that I can interrupt this person and say we need to get back on track, politically. I’m considering emailing our team before the meeting to say “our major goals are to answer the contractor’s questions and provide instructions based on SME 1’s advice, if we have time to discuss other questions addressed in our written feedback we can do so at the end,” but I’m afraid that is definitely too indirect to keep SME 2 from diving into a long discussion on the contractor’s first question and derail the meeting.

    1. LifeBeforeCorona*

      It’s a good idea to send everyone a copy of what issues must be covered in the meeting. Keep a copy with you during the meeting so that you can refer to it when the SME goes off-track. It’s easier to reel them back if you can say, we have to get to the next agenda item.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. I’d like to do this but my concern is that we won’t have a copy of the contractor’s questions ahead of time, so I won’t know how many there are to manage time. I guess I could ask them to screen share at the beginning of the meeting or put them into the chat if they are written out.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Does SME2 really have to be there?
      Can you tell SME2 in advance, one-on-one, that the contractor is really time limited, and we need to get through the entire list of questions that they have in just X minutes? This should not be an email.
      Can you appeal to your management to have that conversation with SME2? Surely they must know that SME2 is long-winded and has derailed THEIR meetings in the past.

      1. Overeducated*

        I have to invite SME2. But there is a possibility that the only window of availability for everyone could be on SME2’s day off…we’ll see.

        I think telling SME2 in advance one-on-one is a good idea, actually. I have sometimes warned people when I’ve had to manage time in a meeting more aggressively than usual due to an ambitious agenda and they’ve generally taken it well. Thanks, I may do this!

        There will be no criticism from management on this one. I think previously it’s been ok for SME2 to take over, because either they were running the project, or they were on a call with someone else who I find it even HARDER to fit a word in edgewise with. So it’s just navigating personalities here.

  81. Anonymous Educator*

    Has anyone found that, as they’ve progressed through their career, the jobs that have paid more have generally been less work and the jobs that have paid less have generally been a lot more work?

    1. Magda*

      I think this *all the time.* In the nonprofit sector, the entry-level or lowest paid jobs are often truly the worst, while being a director may be quite cushy with decent pay. You also may not really need to do anything once you can delegate to people, just like, sit in meetings wearing nice clothes. I don’t get it.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Like my current job is still a job. It’s still work. But it’s not that stressful. And my current job pays over four times as much as the most stressful and demanding job I ever had (that also didn’t have any benefits).

    2. Overeducated*

      No, I don’t think there’s a clear inverse relationship, but I think across sectors pay is not commensurate with amount of work.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      It depends. I have one parent who’s in a very senior position and they definitely work less hours than they did when they were starting out.

      OTOH, they now carry the responsibility of hundreds of jobs on their shoulders if their decisions go wrong vs. just their own.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Yes and no? Generally I don’t feel overwhelmed by the amount of tasks I have like I did with many lower paying jobs. But I also have to make a lot more judgement calls and sensitive decisions, and I have a lot more trust to do so, which means I’m on the hook if things go sideways.

      Fewer tasks, but less straightforward in their execution, and therefore frequently more stress.

      1. LQ*

        The decisions is a big part of it for me. I will spend hours reviewing documents, asking questions, making sure I understand things. I see some folks make those same decisions in seconds. If I didn’t put the work into the decision making things and judgement calls I expect I would think my job was a lot easier.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think it depends, but that’s certainly been the case for my career. When I was lower-level, I was constantly busy, answered to several people, had to juggle tasks. Now that I’m more senior, I do less of the “grunt work” but I have to manage all of the projects and contacts and clients and people. My work requires fewer actual tasks but many more skills.. I don’t find my current work difficult, but I had 20 years of experience in the tasks and the organizing and the prioritizing to help me get to a point where my high-level job could feel like less work.

    7. Alianora*

      I’m still in my 20s, so maybe this will change as I progress further in my career, but so far that hasn’t been the case.

      The actual work in my minimum wage jobs wasn’t harder, and there wasn’t more of it, but the crappy work environment made things overall more stressful. I was seen as completely replaceable, and the managers didn’t really care if I was unhappy about things like taking my break 5 minutes into a 6-hour shift. So for me, the difference is that I’m valued more in higher-paying jobs, and that comes through in other ways than just salary.

      I can’t really speak to whether manager- and director-level roles actually have less work, though. I think being exempt vs non-exempt is an important factor. At my current job, I’m non-exempt, so I’m actually not allowed to work more than 40 hours a week because they don’t want to pay overtime. The managers, on the other hand, are expected to work more hours.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        That’s a good point. The actual tasks involved in my retail jobs were easy but the crappy treatment and insecurity was hard.

    8. LQ*

      I think this varies. Through my career I think I’ve mostly been the same. Small bits of not all in but mostly I’m someone who always works really hard. My entry level jobs have had a higher floor for the most part, but some people managed to find ways to crash through it that I wouldn’t (taking advantage of liberal leave or flexibility policies to just not work much at all). As I’ve gone up I feel like I see the same % of people being shitty and taking advantage of it. The main difference seems to be that the most I could work in my higher paid/higher level role is so much higher than the amount I could work when I was entry level. There was a cap to the most effort I could put in, whereas now I don’t feel like I can ever stop doing things. I regularly plan for weekend work and look forward to a 3 day weekend only because other people won’t be working.

      That said before I moved into this career I was in another, lower paid “blue collar” field, which really feels like it fits your description as you move from in the field to in the office the work is so much less backbreaking and so so much worse paid.

      I don’t know that I could say what the least I personally could do in my job was, but looking around at other people similarly situated it’s not much for those who decide that they are just not going to put it in. I think the difference between the people who do the most and the least work at lower paid jobs vs people who do the most and the least at higher paid jobs is a lot wider. The gap at the higher end of the pay scale (that I can see) is much wider. The gap at the lower end is a lot smaller.

      Or it’s possible that I’ve been less good at the jobs higher up on the pay scale and therefore need to put in more effort. It could be the opposite for you, you are better at those and need to work less at them. I have a colleague who can make some tasks seem effortless that would take me an hour.

    9. JB*

      Yes – where ‘work’ means ‘high stress tasks and things nobody ever wants to do’.

      I’ve finally advanced to a role where I should never have to speak to an angry customer on the phone or lift anything heavg again. I’m also in my first salaried position. (FTR I’m 30, so not nearly as experienced as some people out there – I can only speak to my own experience.)

      My new role requires specific knowledge and skills, and utelizes my degree in a way previous positions have not, but I absolutely would not consider it harder work than when I was facing customers on the front lines every day and hauling around heavy inventory, and making barely more than minimum wage. There are people who will be in those roles their whole lives because that is what they are best suited for (both in terms of their skills and what they want to do with their career), and those roles cap out at a certain maximum payment, and I think that’s despicable.

    10. Gipsy Danger*

      Eh, the highest paying job I’ve had landed me in the hospital due to the stress. I really enjoyed my low-paying retail job: when my shift was over, I was done working, didn’t think about work, and had no stress because it required very little responsibility.

      Now I work a job that is in the middle: pays decently, strictly 40 hours a week, don’t take work home but have a variety of responsibility when I’m here.

      1. Magda*

        Now see I would speculate that retail work for minimum wage is often a LOT harder that being middle or upper management white collar. Ok, some white collar jobs do have ridiculous expectations (high stress, 70 hour weeks, etc) but it seems to me that a LOT of the lowest paid jobs are terrible in terms of scheduling shifts, being penalized for things like being a minute late, going to the bathroom, taking a personal call, etc. – and may offer no paid leave or benefits, to boot.

    11. Alexis Rosay*

      It really depends–this can be true, but no, I don’t think it’s always a rule. My lowest-level jobs had very little flexibility in time or tasks, while upper-level jobs usually have the ability to delegate or delay tasks as necessary. However, I spent several months as Interim Executive Director for an organization and that was one of the hardest and most stressful periods of my life due to the high level of responsibility. If I didn’t do my job well, the organization could have literally fallen apart or gone bankrupt. I was happy to step into a lower-paid position after that.

    12. RagingADHD*

      Definitely happened to me with freelancing, because the crap clients who pay crap also have wildly unrealistic expectations of how much work they should get for the price, and have nothing better to do than nitpick, interfere, and demand changes for no good reason just to feel important.

      As I raised my rates, the clients who can and will pay better a) understand how much work they’re paying for, b) understand how my work fits into a larger strategy and c) are happy to rely on my expertise because they have more lucrative ways to use their own time.

  82. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

    This issue has been low-key simmering for several years. I have a co-worker who is rude, brusque, and not friendly to me at all. We only see each other for several hours whenever our schedules overlap. It doesn’t bother me because they have no authority over me and if they want to pointedly ignore me, well I worked with worse people and can deal with it. They give very condescending, “make sure you turn on your computer and open your files,” advice which I ignore. Recently I was informed that a formal complaint had been lodged because of their behavior. Apparently, they treat everyone else the same way and someone finally broke because the last insult was pretty awful. I was told what was said and yes, if they said that to me, I’d be filing a complaint as well. My question is, should I also file a complaint? My complaint is that they’re just plain rude but that seems minor because people are rude all the time. However, if I did file one, it would help validate the other complaints. My question: Should I wait for the formal investigation and speak up then? I’m not sure if I’m even supposed to know that this is happening because personnel matters are supposed to be confidential and I don’t want to betray a trust. On the other hand, management needs to know how awful this person can be.

    1. Magda*

      Hmm, based on what you said I wouldn’t file a complaint for “rudeness.” But if I was asked or interviewed on the other complaint, I wouldn’t hesitate to speak up. If not asked, I might put in a word to my supervisor or some higher-up.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      Nah. Let it be. Complaining about general rudeness without a specific, recent, incident is going to come across as weird.

    3. ferrina*

      From what you’ve written, there’s nothing here for a formal complaint. This person is just really rude.

      However, there are informal options. You can casually mention that That Person is really hard to work with. If you trust your boss, you can even say, “hey, someone mentioned that there was a complaint filed against That Person. I don’t know if it’s true, but I just want to say that I find That Person difficult to work with and quite condescending. Not something I can’t handle, but figured I’d let you know in case it became relevant.”
      If your boss is reasonable and you couch it as an FYI, it can communicate what you need to. Just say it once, and not again until you are asked.
      If your boss might have a bad reaction or you are on notice for something else (which can make this look like finger-pointing and undermine your message), I would not do this.

    4. Asenath*

      I wouldn’t file a complaint now if the behavior to you wasn’t bad enough for you to file a complaint at the time. On the other hand, sometimes these things result in a broader enquiry into the rude person’s work behaviour, and if your employer interviewed about that, you should certainly mention that the person has been rude to you, with specific examples.

    5. JB*

      Do not file a complaint. However, you may want to note specific incidents of extreme rudeness over the next couple of days, in case someone (HR, management, etc.) asks you about this person as part of their investigation, so that you have specific comments etc. you can quote.

    6. BayCay*

      I wouldn’t file a complaint unless this person’s “rudeness” crosses into bullying or abusive behavior. I was in a very similar situation, except my co-worker’s words and actions got so bad it made the entire office a toxic place. Even then, my manager didn’t discipline her until she crossed the line and made an ageist comment to an older co-worker of ours. Case in point, it seems like most managers and workplaces aren’t willing to address bad behavior until it goes from rude to abusive.

  83. It's Bananas*

    I work for the public sector in a government job and need help trying to figure out norms/office politics. There are some people that will come in and won’t even acknowledge you unless you are a manager or higher up. Some people will talk to me if my boss is around, others won’t even bother.

    Is this normal for government work? Does it just depend on where you work?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It depends.
      Federal, state, local?
      Culture of union/hourly always fighting management/professional?
      Could even just be a weird old hand vs. newby culture that’s only in your office, and the people on the next floor all get along.

    2. Middle Manager*

      Fellow government worker. I would say it really varies between agencies, states, even time as executive leadership changes and put their own stamp on the agencies day-to-day function.

    3. LQ*

      This varies a lot from place to place inside government. What you’ve said would be pretty against the culture here. But there is definitely an old-timers vs new kids kind of mentality that I think is pretty common in government. People who have been around for a long time won’t engage as much with new people until they’ve been around for a while. That’s not to say not acknowledging just not being friendly. They assume new people will leave until proven otherwise. (50 years is not an unheard-of tenure around here so they’ve seen lots of people come and go and I expect perspective is just different after 20+++ years of the same thing.)

    4. What?!?!*

      This would be totally abnormal and considered extremely rude at my federal agency. We are a friendly bunch, agency-wide. I’m sorry you are dealing with this.

  84. ChemAnon*

    My boss’ boss scheduled a meeting next week to “discuss future plans you might have, personal or work related, that might be relevant for us to discuss together”.

    I am worried about him asking about plans for me to get pregnant (illegal, I know, but this is a small, conservative, family run company). Ideas for how to respond if so? Should I lie and say no babies? Say it’s illegal?

    (Also, interestingly enough, my boss was not copied, and this was a “locked” meeting so no one else can see what it is…)

    1. ferrina*

      “I don’t have any plans right now, and actually I’m really looking forward to [CAREER ASPECT].”

      Come prepared with some career goals (whether it’s working for a promotion or just excited about a new project), and redirect to those career goals as much as you need. You’re just really passionate about those career goals!

      Also, I don’t know if I would read too much in to the locked meeting- I’ve noticed that the higher up the food chain, the less attention they pay to the nuances of a meeting invite.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      There is value in feigning ignorance.
      “Gosh, grand-boss, I thought you wanted to talk about my professional development, so I came prepared to discuss that. I hadn’t thought such delicate matters would be relevant.”
      Dude wants to code, you can code right back. “Delicate matter” is older person for “that’s none of your business.”

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        And if he doesn’t pick up on that, tell him flatly that you want to talk about your career, not your sex life.

        BUT – any chance that this is to discuss advancing on your boss’ role? Is your boss doing a good job, from what you can see?

    3. Carol*

      One piece of advice I once got about getting illegal questions about pregnancy plans were to sort of slightly call it out. “Oh, it sounds like you want to know more about my commitment to this job/career. Here are some long term thoughts I have about career/job” and then go from there. Bypass entirely. Play dumb if he gets more explicit. “Do you mean a vacation I might have coming up? I have no vacation plans.” And then if he asks you outright about baby plans, then I guess you have to do something like “oh, I think we’re not supposed to discuss that in employment conversations” or something like that. Keep redirecting.

      I wouldn’t lie, personally, but think you’d be entitled to in this case without feeling guilty. I wouldn’t do it because I’d assume it would be used against me later in some laundry list of “here’s how you as a woman failed us by having a medical need.”

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      I don’t think it’s illegal for anyone to ask about pregnancy (unkosher AF, yes). It is illegal to discriminate based on that information. “I don’t have plans I’m willing to discuss” is a good line I’ve used.

    5. JB*

      Dismiss and redirect. “Oh, who knows what the future might hold. Here are my plans for growing in [work-related skill]” or “we don’t have any solid plans right now for growing our family. I’ve been thinking about cross-training on [X position], do you think that would be possible?”

      Have something else you can pivot to and that’ll help even if other weird conversations come up. (This meeting sounds VERY strange. Protect yourself!)

    6. BayCay*

      Weird. I would only stick to discussing professional goals, plans. Your personal plans, especially when related to family or pregnancy, are none of his business.

    7. Nesprin*

      There’s always the mildly befuddled helpful approach “gee boss, I know you don’t mean to but that question could be really discriminatory- I know you don’t want to do that! On to thing X”

    8. The teapots are on fire*

      I would feel very free to lie and then act surprised if you get pregnant and call it a gift from God.

  85. Meeting the Boss*

    Recently, we got a new great grandboss. Literally, there are two levels of supervisors between my level and his. Let’s call him Bob.

    Bob wants to meet everyone on my level in a one-on-one to get to know you and to find out your suggestions for the workplace. A few coworkers have already met with Bob and they used the time to air their grievances of the management. Whether this gets taken into consideration is something we have to wait and see. However I don’t know if this is a dangerous thing to do. I too have issues I’d like to see cleared up or changed. However an internal promotion is in the works and I want to be considered, as a few of us are within reaching distance of it. Would telling the new grand boss, who will do the interviews along with the other supervisors, any grievances in this one-on-one be ok or will it ruin my chances? I would find it hard to say everything is rosy when others are coming back, claiming how they told Bob why certain things don’t work or how things are unfair.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I think there are probably ways to express concern without sounding like you’re just there to rant. And being able to be polite and politic in expressing concerns may actually play to your favor.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “Airing grievances” is the wrong way to look at this. Waaaaaay wrong.

      “The old manager was mean to us” is useless to Bob.

      “The way that vacations days are requested and approved isn’t working; we often have to go around the system to HR, we didn’t have enough coverage between Christmas and New Years in 2020, and some people haven’t been able to get the day after Thanksgiving off in 5 years, while others get it every time.” is something that Bob can take action on.

      1. Meeting the Boss*

        Your first example is way off base as to what people are saying.

        Your second example is more on track. It is a grievance because we’ve been told this is how it’s been done forever and no one has taken it to task to change it.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Gotcha.

          Grievance is still a loaded word. Maybe that’s just a convenient descriptor for you mentally, but I would not say that word out loud. Even if you’re in a union, there’s a defined process for lodging a grievance that includes shop stewards and paperwork, not an individual one-on-one with the new upper management.

          1. Meeting the Boss*

            I say “grievances” because there are common complaints amongst the majority of the staff. It’s gotten to the point that those are the things they point out to newbies right off the bat. There is a Union but it is an open shop (rather than closed). So our place bases most things on seniority and many have issues with that because they end up getting the short end of the stick if they are long down the line.

    3. Alianora*

      Honestly? I’d wait and see how he responds to the other coworkers’ complaints before you “air your grievances.” If you have concrete suggestions, like Alton Brown’s Evil Twin says, you can bring those up in a neutral way. Probably best not to say that everything is rosy when it’s not.

      But for interpersonal issues and fraught topics, I think you should see how Bob operates so that you can decide the best way to broach them with him.

      1. Meeting the Boss*

        Kind of hard to wait and see how Bob handles the issues he’s already been told about because he is meeting with a few people a day, every day, until the staff has all met him. And that will take at least a month.

        1. Alianora*

          I don’t see how that’s a problem. Like I said, in your meeting, you can bring up concrete suggestions you have. Just with the more emotional issues (which is what I’m picking up from the way you’re describing them as grievances and problems with management), maybe don’t make it a topic for the initial meeting. If he seems responsive to your coworkers’ issues, then he’ll probably be ok with you coming to him later.

    4. JB*

      1. Plan to stick to mostly positives, maybe raise one or two of your most important concerns. The main issue here is that you don’t know him well yet and don’t know how he’ll respond to even legitimate concerns, AND you don’t know exactly how your coworkers presented it – the biggest risk is that he’s starting to create an internal category of ‘complainers’ and might file you in there whether it’s fair of him or not.
      2. If he ASKS what you think about issues raised by other coworkers, have an honest but not emotionally loaded response ready. (This can be difficult if it’s a source of a lot of legitimate frustration, but you don’t want to slip up and become ‘the one who called department X a bunch of apes with keyboards’ in his mind.)
      3. Be straightforward and clearheaded about any concerns you raise AND any solutions you offer. Is the solution you’re proposing a big cost to the company? Is it a project that will take extra man-hours? Etc. Aknowledge that so it’s clear to him you understand there are challenges.

      Who you do not want to be: “Department X never answers our emails and management says it’s our problem to figure out, deadlines are unreasonable, and half the staff are about to quit.”

      Who you want to be: “I do have some concerns about communication with department X. They promise a turnaround time of one working day but we often wait a week or more. I think a ticket system might help, rather than emailing our requests, but I understand that would take time and money to introduce.”

  86. Gaggle*

    My office is a contracted vendor for my state and we’re in the middle of transitioning everything to a new vendor. Everything is taking forever and the timeline keeps getting extended. My issue is that a manager that used to work with us reached out to me and expressed interest in having me fill an open position in her new department. She mentioned she would be willing to wait for a couple of months, but I can’t be sure when I’ll actually be done here. How do I say “Yes, I’m interested but who knows when I’ll be available?”

      1. Gaggle*

        So there’s a few reasons I don’t want to leave before the end. There’s a decent-sized stay bonus, there’s a possibility of a similar position within my same company afterwards (which means I keep my seniority & PTO), and I’m not 100% sold on working for this other manager/company for a variety of reasons. I’d like to have this possibility as another option, but I have concerns and wouldn’t want to miss out of some of perks my current company is offering.

        1. WellRed*

          I think you just need to be direct then. You’re interested but committed to seeing this transition through and can’t commit to a deadline at this point. Be gracious and tell her you understand if she needs to move forward without you.

    2. ferrina*

      I assume your contract is until the transition is complete, and you can’t walk away before that, correct? (otherwise, WellRed is right- you can call your last day your last day, and transition yourself out)

      If you absolutely can’t leave- can you tell your former manager this? She used to work in this business, so she’d understand, right? Are you able to do some part-time work or come in as a contractor in the meantime?

  87. Allura Vysoren*

    I’ll try to keep this short: I work for a satellite office of an national corporation. During COVID, there was a huge double standard with how employees of my office were treated in comparison to corporate. For instance: my state went into total shut-down last spring, but we were required to return to the office the moment it was over (we switched to remote work during that time and our business actually grew). Corporate is only just now looking to return to a hybrid schedule in October.

    Corporate LOVES to tout the line about how we’re all one company and how much they care about all of us. I desperately want to email our head of HR and ask him, if that’s true, why the double standards around COVID safety? Why was I forced back into the office against CDC and state guidelines? (FWIW, I did ask another HR person when it was happening, and only received vague responses about “culture.” The head of HR was hired early this year.)

    Should I just let it go and accept that HR doesn’t actually care? Should I go through with it? (I’m looking for another job, of course, but I’ve been doing that for a year and I’m looking for ways to live with myself while I’m working here indefinitely.)

    1. ferrina*

      If the head of HR is really, really new and you haven’t tried talking to them yet, you can send one email asking if the company is recondering due to the Delta variant and rising numbers. If the head of HR seems to be sticking to the party line, well, decide how much political capital you’re willing to risk.

      Unfortunately, this may come down to a question of how much you are willing to look like a troublemaker. You are absolutely right- it you don’t need to be in an office right now and you have a strong track record, you should have the flexibility to make the decision that is safest for you. But corporate has shown that they are happy with double standards.

      If it helps, picture corporate as Grog trying to barter. They think that they are being so sneaky and that you don’t see that they are doing double standards…..

      Good luck with your job search!

  88. Anonny nonny*

    I really need some good ideas in my situation. Like many of us, I’ve been approaching burnout in current job. COVID made things somewhat easier since our company allowed partial wfh.
    Every time I’ve approached my supervisor about my burnout, I get nothing but a blank stare. They’re a workaholic, and I think they expect me to operate similarly.
    This past week, I spoke with a coworker and commiserated on the crushing workload. I made the mistake of relating some of our conversation to my and my coworker’s supervisor later. (coworker didn’t ask me to keep anything confidential) At the time, I never planned to say anything but in I mentioned the struggles we both were having with the workload. Their response was just to do what we could. However this never plays out in reality. We’re expected to get everything done and more.
    Today I was handed a new ongoing project!
    I’m at the end. Suggestions? Is there any point in speaking out again?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This sounds to me like a “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” situation.

      You could have a conversation like “I do appreciate what you said that we only needed to do what we could and I want to talk to you about what that looks like. Realistically I only have time for [x] or [y] this week, which would it make sense to prioritize”

      But I’d be job hunting.

    2. Alianora*

      When you got the new project, what did you say?

      It sounds like my manager is more sensitive than yours about burnout (they do keep trying to give me new projects, but when I bring up concerns about workload, they at least acknowledge it’s a problem). However, I’ve had good luck with saying, “As we’ve discussed, my current workload is already a lot to handle. This new task will double the amount of teapots I’m painting/take X amount of hours per week. Can we talk about what tasks I can drop in order to take this on?”

      1. ferrina*

        I was going to suggest something similar, but with a harder line.

        You say “I can either do Project A or B. Which would you like me to focus on?” Set the number of hours you can work (maybe 45 per week? Now is the time to hold steady or slightly scale back, not do a dramatic cut). Then tell your boss that you are unavailable outside of that. But force your boss to make the hard decisions. Document everything.

        And carve out time to update that resume. This is a really bad situation, and almost never gets resolved by staying in the same place. If the boss doesn’t see a problem with your workload, there’s not much you can do about it.

        1. Anonny nonny*

          Yes, I’m afraid you’re right.
          Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. We’re short-staffed now with no plans to hire so I can’t see a way to delegate to anyone else.
          I’m most likely going to job hunt, which is a “joy” unto itself.
          Happy Friday!

  89. Choggy*

    So my boss has mentioned something along the lines of bringing in a consultant or an FTE to analyze our department regarding inefficiencies and staffing levels. I had never heard of such a thing (especially not a FTE doing it). Is anyone familiar with this type of function, and has it been done (successfully) in your company/department?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is called “business process reengineering” (or similar words), and it’s done all the time. I used to do it in the 90s.

      Bringing in an FTE could just mean borrowing somebody from another part of the company for 6 months – so they are familiar enough with the lingo & organization that they can hit the ground running.

      Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, sometimes it works for 6 months then chaos creeps back in. It depends on the nature of your business, and whether you can get buy-in from the staff and from upper management.

      1. Choggy*

        Thanks for your response, I asked my manager about this recently and of course it’s been put on hold, I’m sure because the powers that be don’t want the problems they know about to be held up to the light.

  90. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I just had an initial interview for a position that would be a perfect next step for me and I would be able to bring a ton of unusual, relevant experience…except it oversees 6 people and I haven’t had a formal people management role yet. I pointed to the extensive informal management I’ve done over my career, including overseeing other staff in certain tasks and my current volunteer role as a volunteer coordinator, as well as the graduate class I’ve taken on leadership. I hope it’s enough, but the recruiter was straightforward that this might be a deal breaker. I hate this Catch-22, how does one become a people manager without having been a people manager?!?

    1. LDN Layabout*

      That is unfortunately the sticking point I’ve reached at work. In a normal year, I would have a graduate to oversee last year…and of course those programmes are on hold for now.

    2. ferrina*

      Yup, that’s pretty much how it goes. It’s tough. Unfortunately, you need to keep doing what you’re doing until you get the opening to break that wall.

      One place I’ve seen people stumble is assuming that management-adjacent roles were the same as a management role. “I’ve coached a team, so clearly I can manage a team!” Um, not quite how it works. When you talk about your experience, be clear about what you have and haven’t done. You can talk about where you anticipate differences between managing volunteers and managing employees.

      fwiw, as a hiring manager I would be most interested in your role as volunteer coordinator. You need to provide clear directions, oveersee quality, provide feedback and training, and manage personalities as needed. That is the closest of your examples. to managing your own team. Overseeing others in certain tasks isn’t really management at all, and it’s incredible normal part of a lot of jobs. The graduate class in leadership makes me really skeptical- leadership isn’t something you learn in a class. Don’t focus on the class itself, but focus on concrete takeaways and how they’ve changed your approach to leadership (developing accurate performance metrics? communication skills? resource allocation?).

      1. new kid*

        Was going to say essentially the same – strongly agree with all of this.

        I appreciate what you’re saying about the catch-22 aspect, but going from never having managed anyone to managing a team of 6 is a pretty big jump tbh. Is this a role where you’d still have individual contributor responsibilities of your own and that’s what’s leading you to think it would be a good fit? If so, you might actually find that the opposite is true – typically the skills that make someone a great individual contributor are very different than what’s makes them a good manager. Some people do have both skill sets, but they are still separate skill sets.

  91. Cute Li'l UFO*

    Yesterday I had a great interview with the Executive Art Director after the initial screen with the recruiter for a role I am interested in. When I applied in mid July there was only a Production Designer role, which I’d be happy with but both the recruiter and EAD brought up the Graphic Designer role and said they’d see what they could do with regards to the role. Has anyone had this happen while applying?

    It turns out I also know someone who works there and I was able to ask them more in-depth stuff about how it’s all going. I’m very hopeful.

    I also realize I don’t have the EAD’s email and in searching for it online find it obscured or available but with questionable sign ups. Would I be remiss to send a thanks to the recruiter to pass along? It escaped my mind and it’s not within any of the meeting invites.

    1. ferrina*

      Yep, you can send the thanks to the recruiter to pass along. Most reasonable interviewers are fine with this.

      I’ve seen it happen that candidates come in for one role, and actually end up getting offered another role. I got one of my best people this way- he was interviewing for a different role which was a really bad fit, but I was part of the interview committee and had an opening that he was a great fit for! It worked out really well for all involved.
      I’ve also seen the flip side, where the second role wasn’t quite what the candidate was looking for, or the candidate wasn’t quite as much of a match as we hoped (and we had stronger candidates for the first role) and so we went our separate ways. It can happen, but both sides were honest the whole way through.

      Good luck to you!

    2. I exist*

      You could ask the person you know that works there and the recruiter if either could share the EAD’s email so you could thank them directly. However, I have no experience with recruiters to know about passing along a thanks.

  92. Distracted Librarian*

    I’m not sure how much of this post is a question and how much is a rant, but here goes. A colleague was selected for a leadership program sponsored by a national professional association in higher education. As part of the program, participants request feedback from colleagues on a long list of leadership characteristics. I was among the colleagues who received the questionnaire.

    Most of the characteristics were reasonable for an emerging leader, focusing on communication, leadership style, etc. But then there were a bunch related to appearance:
    Appears well-groomed
    Wears appropriate clothing
    Dresses appropriately
    And my favorite: “Challenges the guidelines of the dress policy.” [I’m pretty sure the org sees that as a negative.]

    Then there’s this gem:
    “Appreciates personal attention from others.” Like, is that a positive or a negative? Don’t we all appreciate personal attention from others?

    So those are mostly just weird. These next few are enraging. Women readers, y’all might want to sit down and grab your nearest stress ball/high blood pressure medication/highball glass for these (and note these are all word for word quotes). Ready? Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
    Smiles a lot
    Talks a lot
    Is domineering

    In case anyone missed the memo, women in the workplace (especially women leaders) have been dinged for years about talking too much (even when it’s documented that the women talked less in a meeting than the men) and being “domineering” (my misogynist father’s favorite adjective for any woman who attempted to differentiate herself from a doormat). And of course we should all smile more.

    I politely explained to my colleague that I was uncomfortable participating in an exercise that perpetuated sexism in the workplace. I also asked him whom I could contact at the organization to, um, have words. He was very positive and understanding but didn’t provide any names. So… If you were me, what would you do? Is this as bad as I think it is, or am I making too big a deal about it? And is it still 2021, or did I wake up in 1960?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is a problem with general surveys. You’re asking a bunch of people to come up with open-ended descriptors for a nebulous quality (“leadership”) that they don’t think about every day, so you’re going to get answers that reflect their personal pet peeves & biases, and just general oddball stuff.

      This list & process tells me two things:
      1) There are plenty of people with conscious and unconscious biases
      2) This organization has no idea how to run leadership training
      2b) This organization doesn’t even know what they mean by the word ‘leadership’

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Oh, wow… I think if you are a member of the organization I would reach out to whomever is in charge of the training and write a polite email to them about it. I think sometimes people just don’t “see” these things until someone points them out and it is usually more effective to be friendly and gracious about it than to yell and rant. I think if I saw such a questionnaire my response would be very similar to yours and I would have to work hard to tone down whatever email I wrote.

      1. Distracted Librarian*

        I’m not a member, and the organization is for professionals adjacent to mine (i.e. it’s a higher ed org but not a library one). I’m still thinking I’ll find a contact there and write to them. It’s so upsetting that a professional organization is promoting this kind of sexism (and racism if you consider how dress codes are often used to target POC) in 2021.

    3. WellRed*

      What the hell does “appreciates personal attention from others” even mean? Especially in a workplace?! “Doesn’t mind being groped? Complimented? Flirted with?”

      1. Distracted Librarian*

        Right? I read it as a negative, that the person is an attention-seeker, which, like so many of these examples, feels gendered to me.

  93. Leeny*

    My husband and I are relocating for work in a couple weeks and he’s going to be facing an hour commute and is starting to worry it’ll be too much. Any tried and true tips for making a commute easier? It’ll be primarily highway driving at 70 MPH.

    2. angstrom*

      Podcasts. For me driving is an ideal listening environment. I look forward to long drives because they give me a chance to catch up on my favorite podcasts.

      Allow him some unwind time when he gets home if needed. Sometimes a long highway drive is relaxing, and some days it just isn’t.

    3. Commuter*

      Yes to the above. Your public library or Libby is a good first stop, they often have tons of stuff! Also lots of free podcasts. If possible to flex start times, best to leave the house early — like earlier than 6:30 around my house — to miss peak traffic. And be honest to yourself that it takes the time it takes, don’t look at google maps telling you its 55 minutes if its really 60-70 and get pissed whenever it takes you “more than an hour to get home.” (Like me!)

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Echoing this – you don’t have to shell out $$$ on places like audible. I’ve been tearing through free audio books on libby since my commute shifted four years ago. And there are libraries who do not have strict residency requirements, so you can access more than just your local library. My library also keeps a little running total of how much money you save by borrowing. Totally worth it.

      2. WellRed*

        Yeah, good point. Be realistic about how long it will take so you’re not stressed out if something might make you late.

    4. WellRed*

      Also if there’s any wiggle room on schedule to make commute easier ( ie, slightly earlier or later to avoid traffic). I do realize that may be impossible.

    5. cool, calm, uncollected*

      Audiobooks are a good suggestion IF your spouse is good at driving and listening at the same time. Mine is NOT, it would not be a good idea for her. And since it’s a new route, i would suggest your spouse drive it for several weeks or months before trying to add anything else to focus on.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, audiobooks and podcasts are a total no-no for me. I’m very visual, so things I see tend to override things I hear. The only way I can focus on an audiobook or a podcast is to be in a dark room with my eyes closed and just listen. If I do anything else, my focus is gone. Obviously when I’m driving, I can’t afford to lose focus by trying to listen. I can’t even handle talk radio, so music, preferably familiar music, is what I want to listen to when I’m driving.

    6. The Dude Abides*

      Podcasts are good, if episodes are around that long.

      Check the night before for weather/construction. A drive that takes an hour can easily stretch to 1:15 or longer if there’s road work, a nasty accident, inclement weather, etc.

      Make sure he has a climate-appropriate emergency kit in the trunk: jumper cables, water, portable phone charger, a good shovel if snow is a possibility.

      1. Lizzie*

        And an apple every day to eat on the way home – very refreshing
        And driving to/ from work in casual shoes/sneakers, only wearing his workshoes while at work (feet really appreciate not being cooped up in the same shoes all day

    7. identifying remarks removed*

      I download audio books from scribd.com for my long training runs – doesn’t have the newest books but it has a lot of the authors I like so I can always find something. Saved me a lot of money compared to how much I was spending on kindle and audible to buy books.

  94. Dwight Schrute*

    Suggestions for fidget toys to have at work that don’t scream fidget toy or spinner?

    2. Caboose*

      If you wear necklaces, some metal necklaces have nice dangly bits that can be fiddled with. I’ve got one that I love to use as a fidget.

      I’m a chewer, too, so I always have my camelbak waterbottle– the, er, nipple(?) on that brand has the perfect resistance for how hard I like to bite, and it doesn’t look like I have a chewing toy. It just looks like I’m drinking water!

    3. Littorally*

      Silly putty is my go-to. The one that comes in the red eggs (the stuff itself is more peach colored) won’t leave any coloring or dyes on your hands.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a wad of little magnetic BB type things that I can squish around or line up or make into hexagons or string out into a chain, and right now they’re rounded up into a single biggish hexagon that’s sitting under my tin of lip balm and looks pretty much like an undersized coaster. I’ve also strung them out and worn them as a bracelet before, though I have to be careful lest they magnet to other things.

    5. ferrina*

      Pens.

      So. Many. Pens.

      I currently had 7 different pens out. I also color code everything. I get a bit of teasing for showing up at meeting with four colors of pens, but even more jealousy of my color-coded notes :)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Oh, please don’t click your pens, though! Or spin them on your notepad so the person next to you can’t hear anything but the pen scratching against the paper as you spin it. (See also: people with misophonia should not sit next to people who need to stim and don’t know how to do it quietly.)

    7. Super Cat*

      I have a metal ring that has a…detachment? that allows it to spin, fairly noiselessly. I’m sure someone’s mentioned it to you at some point, but I got mine off the Stimtastic website for very cheap. It just looks like I’m twisting a ring, and is easy to hide under a table or in my lap. They have a lot of other fidget jewelry as well.

    8. BRR*

      I have a fidget pen that has a few fidget parts on it. Honestly it’s a little poorly made but the thing has been a life saver in meetings.

    9. Dark Macadamia*

      My husband has a metal “Infinity Cube” that just looks like a cool paperweight. It kind of sounds like clacking keys, though, so not great if you’re in a shared space. It looks like you can find them in different colors and materials so maybe a plastic one would be quieter?

    10. GraceC*

      Lots of jewellery functions as fidget/stim jewellery even if it’s not intended to be – I have a spinny ring that was bought from a mainstream jewellery shop, so I don’t think it was intended to work for fidgeting/stimming, but it does! I also fidget with the pendant on my necklace (not advised if it’s gold-plated – most of mine are plain silver now, oops) and with dangly earrings (more caveats – if you do this unconsciously with fresh piercings, they WILL get infected).

      I also keep some small trinkets on my desk – one or two deliberately-made worry stones, but also some bigger irregular gemstones in a little tray that I can hold in my hand in my lap when I need to fidget with something. I also like…not pain, but a sharper sensation, sometimes? If I have jewellery with sharper edges like a star-shaped pendant with pointed arms, pressing the points into the pads of my thumb and forefinger is weirdly soothing, and so is some of the rougher texture on some of my fidget pebbles.

      I guess it depends on what your fidget/stim urges are – I like rolling and rubbing things between my fingers (tugging on my pendant, spinning my ring, rubbing my thumb over stones) but those wouldn’t work as well if you’re more satisfied by clicking or flicking sensations.

  95. No time for this nonsense*

    Update Post

    I posted sometime in December about how if Team Red’s receptionist didn’t pick up their phone, their customer calls were forwarded to my voicemail, even though I was on Team Blue, in a separate building, and had no receptionist duties. My boss said that was how the phones were set up and it couldn’t be fixed, and to write down all the messages for Team Red (which was time-consuming). I also had other phone issues: I couldn’t forward the voicemails, no one could call my direct number, and even if callers were transferred to my phone they couldn’t leave a voicemail.

    Per suggestions here, I contacted the team in charge of the phone system about all this. They said there were no problems with my phone and the only way I could get Team Red’s voicemails was if Team Red gave customers my direct line to call or if they were forwarding the voicemails to my phone. They said to talk to Team Red about it. I relayed this to my boss and explained how much time dealing with the voicemails was taking. She said to only deal with the voicemails if I had absolutely nothing else to do, which never happens. So I just deleted them after they were a few days old.

    Later on, we switched phone service providers and everyone got new phones. The guy setting up the phones told me his directions said to route all phone calls for Team Red and Team Blue to me because I was the receptionist. My boss had to confirm that I was NOT the receptionist and everyone should only get their own phone calls and voicemails. All my problems were magically fixed. I heard Team Red was unhappy to have to deal with the voicemails.

    2. ferrina*

      Oh wow. That’s ridiculous! I’m so glad you alerted your boss and your boss had your back!

    3. Sometimes supervisor*

      Well done, you!

      I didn’t see your original post but ugh I feel your pain! Used to work at a company with a teapots team. I was in teapots design. Our teapot sales team was often out with clients which meant they often had phones off. So, whenever somebody called the front desk asking the speak to teapot sales, if the front desk couldn’t find the person they’d named, they’d patch it through to ANYBODY they could find in teapots. Because I was specifically involved in teapot design commissioning, I always had my phone on…so guess who the front desk usually patched those calls through to? I lost count of the number of calls I had which were along the lines of “I’m going to stop you there. This is teapot designs. You need teapot sales. You need to call the front desk back [my divert didn’t work properly]….” “I JUST spoke to the front desk and they said YOU would handle it. All I want is [something straight forward but very sales-y]” “I get that but this is teapot design. We don’t work on sales. I’m really sorry but you’re going to have to call the front desk back” “[Frustrated rant]” “I’m really sorry but I can’t help with that. I’m afraid I have to go now. Please call the front desk.” Oh yeah, and bonus points when they did call the front desk and the call came back to me again. Occasionally, I’d get sick of it and march down to front desk to ask please, pretty please, make a note or something to not send those calls to me because I was getting sick of being ranted at whenever I had to tell people that I was sorry but their princess was in another castle. They’d make a note. It would stick for a bit. Then about a week later, I’d get a call: “Hi! I’m looking for [sales-y thing] and Jane on the front desk said you dealt with that”. Sigh. This wasn’t sorted by the time I left the company but I hope my successor found a fix!

    4. WellRed*

      I remember your post. Who the heck told phone guy you were the receptionist? Some team red glass owl?

  96. Orange Crushed*

    I often have misunderstandings at work, but I don’t know if I’m entirely to blame or if my boss overreacts. For example, my boss asked me if the Llama Report was run from the database. I said that yes, I pulled the report because I wanted to be prepared. My boss became upset at this as if I was calling her unprepared or something, but I wasn’t. I thought that she would be happy that I pulled it and we were early with assignments. 

    Another time I was working on something and my boss came in and started asking me things. I answered her, but my eyes were on the screen. I then quickly turned to face her and apologized, but she seemed a little ticked.
    She doesn’t seem to do this with anyone else, but I’ve never had a problem with any of my other bosses and workplaces with something like this, so I don’t know. 

    Is this a huge issue? It doesn’t happen often and she says that I’m doing a good job, but I feel like I’m doing something wrong. I’m nervous and feel like I have to walk on eggshells around her.

    1. Alianora*

      Hard to say from these examples, maybe something in your tone is rubbing her the wrong way, or maybe you’re just overthinking it. What made her seem annoyed or upset in these situations? What is she actually doing?

      1. Orange Crushed*

        For the first example we were having a conversation and she was pleasant. After I said what I said, her facial expression and tone changed. She became very abrupt. She’s well known/has a reputation for being tough in the workplace.

        1. Alianora*

          If she has a reputation for being tough, I’m thinking she might just have a very expressive face. Neither of those examples are really a big deal, and she says you’re doing a good job. So I don’t think there’s much to worry about here.

          When I’m concerned that my manager is unhappy with me, I like to ask them directly if I should be doing something differently. But from what you describe, these incidents don’t happen often – maybe you can chalk it up to normal friction in a workplace relationship, and file away the things that may be pet peeves for her, like looking at a screen while you’re talking to her. And if you feel like miscommunications are happening more often, then you can bring it up.

    2. ferrina*

      It’s really hard to tell. I can picture scenarios where your actions could have been done rudely or politely and your boss over-reacted.

      Is this something you encounter in other aspects of your life? Coworkers being exasperated or friends sighing and shifting conversation? If this happens in other parts of your life, it might be you (or it still might not, but it’s good to check).
      See if you can get a second opinion. Check in with someone you trust, or even in the moment- “hey, I’m sorry, I realize that may have come across the wrong way.”

      For the eggshells- is your boss tough but fair, or does she retaliate? A boss that is tough but fair will be annoyed, but then will put it past them. They’ll watch out for a pattern, but if they don’t see one, they don’t let a single bad interaction stand in the way of good work. A boss that is retaliatory will get dug in and may lash out- these are people that think others should be walking on eggshells around them. These are not good people and will mess with your head long term.

      1. Orange Crushed*

        No- it doesn’t happen in other aspects of my life.

        For the eggshells part, sometimes she is fair and sometimes she retaliates.

        1. ferrina*

          Yew, that’s awful. I can see why you’re walking on eggshells! I’m sorry, that really sucks. If she’s the only one this is happening with, then it’s more likely that it’s just her. Unfortunately, Alton Brown’s Evil Twin’s advice is about as good as you can get.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I would leave off the explanations. Give her the minimum amount of info in your conversations so she doesn’t have anything she can willfully misinterpret.

      “Has the Llama Report been run from the database?”
      “Yes, it’s right here.”

      You wouldn’t have to do this with a reasonable boss, but she’s obviously not reasonable…

  97. cactus lady*

    I got a linkedin message from someone I have mutual contacts with inviting me to serve on an advisory board for an initiative in my field (this is pretty common in my industry). It sounded cool… but then when I looked into it, “advisory board” is what they called their investors and it was a pitch for money. I had never heard of this tactic before, is it common?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I don’t know about ‘common’. But I do know that investor and advisor often overlap, especially in startups in highly regulated fields, like medicine.

      Depending on who these people are, you might just frame this as a compliment. “Gee thanks, I’m flattered that you thought of me, and this company sounds interesting, but I’m afraid I don’t have the liquid funds you’re looking for.”

  98. Concertina*

    Do y’all think my lack of a relevant internship is hurting my job search?
    I just graduated in February with my bachelor’s in geosciences and I’m a bit older than a traditional new grad. Before the pandemic hit, I was talking to people from a few different big companies for internships, but then Covid and everything closed down and everyone cancelled their internships. I also got laid off from my customer service job at that point, which was scary and stressful. I ended up getting a seasonal job in a state construction materials lab, which I’ve really enjoyed for some reasons (nice people for the most part, good hours, get to leave my work at work) but it’s only seasonal. I’m employed here through late December and then laid off. I feel like part of the problem is my lack of internship and part of the problem is most likely just people got laid off last year and are willing to take entry level jobs even if they have more than entry level experience?
    I’m worried my options right now are:
    1) Apply for internships to basically take a break from this relentless nightmare of a job search.
    2) Grad school?
    3) Keep boiling asphalt forever (seasonally).
    This got a little rambly and venty, but I’m pretty stressed about it. I guess if anyone could just point me at a good direction to go in?

    1. Concertina*

      The reason I mention my age is that I worked full time in a call center while I was in school and already had a spouse/dog/life to take care of and didn’t have the freedom to go do work through like Americorps or Student Conservation Association or anything.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you get some advice and pointers from the director or other management at the lab you’re working at now? Who most likely have degrees in civil engineering, chemistry, geology, or some other field that’s adjacent to geosciences. Do they even know you just got your degree?

      1. Concertina*

        They do! The lab I work at is for the state and most people here work here for the benefits and not out of passion for the work, if that makes sense? Like, working for the pension, which isn’t a bad thing! The advice I’ve generally gotten has been “Well, take the civil service test when it is offered again and take any state job available!” which doesn’t help too much in the immediate. If I stayed in this field but moved to a private corporation, which I could probably do pretty easily, I would make 15-25% less per hour but I might get PTO? So? Choices I guess.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Oh, I was hoping for more general career advice, not “how to get a job with the government.”

          As in, “here are the asphalt companies that are doing the most cutting-edge work on permeable pavements in the state”, or “there’s an environmental consulting company that is always looking for people that I just heard about”, etc.

          1. Concertina*

            That’s what I was hoping for too lmao! There’s a mug from a major design/consulting firm that sits on the shelf of Forgotten and Strange Items above my desk, mocking me…

    3. Caboose*

      Getting a first job in any field is rough! I found that most internships had really specific requirements for when you had graduated, and that wasn’t much help to me.
      In my case, I just…committed to the relentless nightmare of the job search. Without prior experience and without a recent internship, I was applying to at least 5 jobs every single weekday for 3-4 months. I applied to literally anything and everything that could possibly be relevant.
      All you need is something that’s in your field and that is okay enough for you to stick around for 2ish years; that 2 year mark seems to be the magical point at which you have enough experience to actually have some control over job hunting.
      I wish I had more helpful advice, but honestly, it’s just a matter of numbers. Eventually, you’ll get your application in front of someone who happens to like you enough to take a chance on you, but it’s a lot of throwing applications into the void before you get to that person.

      1. Concertina*

        It does feel like throwing applications into the void! The worst part is that if I could just get someone to TALK to me I know I make a great impression, but they never do. Luckily my job really doesn’t care what I do on my personal laptop and personal internet as long as I get my testing done so I just sit around here and apply for jobs while I wait for my samples to finish up.

        1. Caboose*

          Yep, I felt the same way! I interview well and I knew that I could talk people into understanding that I’m genuinely a fast learner, but I just needed someone to take that chance.
          It winds up being a numbers game, imo. Eventually, someone *will* give you that chance, but until then, it’s lots of disheartening rejections and ghostings. Best of luck!!

    4. Student*

      I wouldn’t recommend going for internships at this point, given your circumstances and your general familiarity with entry-level work through jobs. I would recommend you stick with your job search, but take a moment to step back to try to assess what the core problem is with the job search right now. You don’t go into a lot of detail on that point, so I can’t really tailor advice.

      Some broader advice:
      – Have a neutral third party look at your resume. Maybe you aren’t doing a good job connecting your prior experience to the jobs you apply to. Maybe you aren’t tailoring to the job ad. Resume writing is a special skill set and a PITA. It’s easy for applicants to think they’ve done a good job, without realizing exactly how much skimming happens when you sit on the other side, reviewing resumes.

      -Can you branch out more on the types of jobs you are applying for? You need to get into the field, then look for a dream job as you build up your career. Some people want to go straight to their dream job, and that is not usually how it works for anyone. Look for positions adjacent to what you’re applying to. Look for smaller companies, not just really big ones. Are you willing to move; can you widen your geographic search area?

      -Talk to people in your current seasonal job for advice. They may have a different view of your skills, of the current job market in your field, of career trajectories, etc. They may give you good ideas, or connect you with someone who can give you more specific advice.

      1. Student*

        Also – do not go into grad school unless you have a specific, clear goal in mind. Will it open a specific career path that you are interested in but aren’t currently eligible for? Are you passionate about learning more about the topics or a sub-specialty?

        Grad school is not a place to go if you are ambivalent about your career, or trying to kill time until the job market improves. It’s a lot of hard work; if you drop out before you get your degree, you get very little benefit from it. It’s long hours, low pay, low benefits, and not often friendly to people with lives and families. It can be downright exploitative. It gives one academic advisor a lot of control over your future, with little oversight. Depending on the field, school, and advisor, it may or may not actually provide work-applicable skills.

        I went through grad school because I needed the credential for the career path I wanted. It was worth it for me. However, only about 20% of my time was spent on learning and doing things I consider useful to me now, with hindsight. About 10% of my time was spent on things I needed to actively unlearn to work in a non-academic job. My post-graduate jobs have been a much more effective use of my time.

        1. Annony*

          Absolutely! I went to grad school because it was required for the very specific career I wanted (and ended up doing), but if this isn’t what I wanted to do it would have been a waste of time and potentially hurt my chances of getting a different job. Too many degrees with no practical experience can make you appear both over and under qualified at the same time.

      2. Concertina*

        I should clarify, when I say I have applied to big companies, I don’t mean like… It’s not like saying “I want to work at Google, Facebook or Microsoft and I will only work there”. There’s a limited number of reputable geological or environmental consulting companies and they or their subsidiaries are everywhere. My experience with smaller companies is that they are either super sketchy or require the ability to take either the PE or PG tests, which I am not (but would be if I got a graduate degree in either civil engineering or geology, either of which would be reasonable).

    5. AK_Blue*

      Admittedly I am 21 years since finishing my BSc in Geology, and 17 yrs since my MSc, but I don’t think things have changed too much- insert joke about the geologic time scale here. Geosciences is a field that most people do end up going to grad school to specialize in a field, but I highly recommend working for a few years first before heading to grad school. I did not, I went direct, and I was rudderless in grad school, it took 4 years, turned me completely off higher education, and the job I have now doesn’t even have anything to do with what I did my thesis on.

      However, my friend in grad school who had worked first between undergrad and grad school, doing materials testing for construction, knew that she wanted to make $$, chose an advisor and a thesis topic that would get her to that goal, specialized in a certain type of oil deposits, did internships during grad school with two different companies, and was hired directly the moment she graduated. She was also a non-traditional older student and had a lot of drive. She’s retired now, 10+ years early, through a combination of good luck, excellent compensation, and her thoughtful choices.

      I know it sucks, but I’d stick with 3 and work on 1. And 4) apply for any job that is remotely in a discipline you might be interested in. Soil remediation, hydrology studies, materials testing, etc. From my friends in private industry it does sound like things are starting to pick back up and perhaps next year might be more normal, but this year projects were slow to start and only minimally funded, so jobs were few and far between.

      Good luck!

  99. Ugh*

    I’ve been wanting to leave my job and in a meeting my boss mentioned that she was looking to get me a raise. She said she would hear back this week, but I haven’t heard anything. What should I say to her and when?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Don’t say anything until you have accepted an offer for a new job, and take the raise in the meantime.

      1. Ugh*

        I totally agree with that! I could’ve worded my question better, because I meant that she said she was supposed to get to me about the raise this week and she hasnt said anything. I just dont know if I should message her today or hold off, and I’m not sure what I would even say

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Oh I see! Do you have a regular check-in? Sometimes these things take a stupid amount of time. If you don’t hear anything by either your next regular check-in or Thursday/Friday next week (whichever is sooner) it’s perfectly fine to say “have you heard anything back about the raise request you mentioned?” Doesn’t need to be more elaborate than that. If she says she hasn’t heard it might be good to just mention you appreciate her putting in a good word.

      2. My Feet Hurt*

        I agree with Eldritch here. Apparently she’s happy with your work, take the raise and meanwhile apply around for another position.

        1. ferrina*

          Yep. Give her a couple days past the deadline (especially if you work in a busy environment), then follow up.

          In the meantime, don’t let it stop you from applying!

  100. Hannah*

    Hi!  Relatively new boss working with a person I hired last year who is brand new to the work world.   A few things to start with: 
    She’s salaried non-exempt and I have no budget for overtime.
    She wanted to come in at the top of her pay band.  I agreed but told her that was going to seriously limit what I could do in the future. 
    With our set up, she cannot get a promotion without additional certifications and for her own reasons, she can’t do that right now.  

    So at her 6 month review, she mentioned some stretch goals.  That’s exactly where I wanted to go (but wasn’t going to bring up yet) because her job isn’t a full 40 hours for somebody as intelligent as she is.  I told her I’d be happy to support her in those, she said she isn’t quite there yet but will let me know.  Last week she approached me, she is very surprised at how quickly her salary is being spent so she’d like to tackle some of those stretch goals to get more money.  I was a bit taken aback so I just sputtered out something about how it doesn’t work that way – I’ll support her in doing new things but it’s still part of her job and not additional pay.  We left it at that. 
    But yesterday, we are talking about how I have to give some work to a contractor because it’s beyond my skills.  I mentioned in passing it was really stretching my budget because he was getting paid a big chunk but it’s what I had to do to get it done.  She was very excited as we talked through his process – she was sure she could figure out how to do it.  I told her I agreed, I really thought that she was skilled enough in that area!  So we settled on the fact that the contractor was booked this cycle but we’d let her shadow him and if she felt comfortable taking it on next cycle, we’d do it that way.  If we needed to take some tasks off her plate to fit that in, we’d do that.
    Now that I’m thinking through both conversations though – I’m pretty sure she thinks that she is going to get the contractor pay on top of her salary for the work.  Not only do I not want to do that – there is no way for me to pay her both as a full time employee and then a contractor on the exact same project.  
    Am I right that she is off base here?  And if so, how do you explain it to somebody who has no idea how a professional job works?  I keep circling around “that’s not how it works!!” but I know that isn’t really a satisfactory explanation.

    1. My Feet Hurt*

      As you already mentioned that you had a problem with hiring the contractor because he’s so expensive, I’m sure your employee will understand that you can not pay her the exact amount that you’re paying him. Otherwise, there would be no point in her doing it (other than that it is perhaps a nice learning experience for her and that you’ll always have her on hand to do this particular work when no contractor is available, which is very practical.
      However, I do think she’ll be expecting at least a chunk of the amount you’re paying the contractor, as it’s a task on top of her normal work and you’re saving money by having her do it.

      1. Hannah*

        You think it’s reasonable for her to be given additional pay, even if she is still only working 40 hours?

        1. My Feet Hurt*

          I didn’t get from your story that she would still work 40 hours when doing the contractor work, I thought she would be doing this outside of her regular work duties and work hours.
          If it really is incorporated in those 40 hours you could maybe work out a bonus system, but she would only get that if she does the work to a good standard.
          I would talk about it before she starts though, because her expectations may indeed be to get extra pay. Not in the way of “You’re probably expecting extra pay”, because maybe she isn’t. You could say something like: “I think it’s great that you’re enthusiastic about learning this new skill. When you do the work up to X (very clearly defined) standard, I can give you a Y bonus for this work.” If she doesn’t agree and expects and unreasonably higher pay and you can’t come to an agreement together, I would tell her that in that work done by the contractor since you can’t pay her more than what you proposed.

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        No, that’s not how these things work and it’s not reasonable to create those expectations for someone new to the working world. Perhaps a bonus down the line would be workable with the money saved, as a thank you for being so willing to take on new projects etc, but direct payment for the service would be odd and create an unsustainable dynamic around taking new projects/skills on in the future.

        1. Hannah*

          I think that’s where I’m getting caught. Typically you come in new, build your skills, get a promotion / raise, start the cycle again.

          This idea of a tit for tat at every single skill doesn’t seem like anything that would work.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      You’re not off base, but it doesn’t sound like you’ve been super clear with her either. Has she had an annual review yet? If you could work out a COL adjustment or a *small* raise for her at one year that might be good, or a bonus for the initiative she’s shown, but you also need to set expectations.

      “As we discussed when you were hired, we brought you in at the top of the pay range for this role, so there isn’t going to be room for a raise. When you can, I’d love to help you pursue certifications required for a promotion, but in the meantime I want to be clear that this is the salary you should expect to be making. I appreciate all your hard work and I’ve been very impressed with you so far, but I hope you understand these things are highly budgeted and [explain x structure at your work place] so we will have to stick to our original understanding about your salary.”

      If possible say you’d be happy to offer her a different perk – a few extra vacation days or something, if her work would warrant that.

      1. Hannah*

        That’s a point. I have been explicit with her before but I know I’m of the “drinking from a fire hose” school of giving information so she may need a repeat. We have her annual review scheduled for October so that would be a good way to bring it up to her.
        I absolutely can’t do a raise this year. My employer actually cut everybody’s salaries due to COVID. As a brand new staff I was able to shield her from that but our raises as basically the cut being ended. I can’t ask for any raises now but hopefully next year we get our COL back.

    3. Lifelong student*

      Point out to her that contractors get no benefits and pay the employer side of social security and medicare! Those are additional expenses which factor into contractor rates.

    4. ferrina*

      You need to start leading the conversation.

      First- what is her job? What do you need her to do, and what would you like her to do? Then line that up with what she wants to do. If the two align, great. But if they don’t, well, you’re paying her to do the job that you need done. That’s how jobs work.

      Second- contractors make more because they pay tax, insurance/benefits and overhead on their own business. She will only make the same amount of money regardless of the work that is assigned to her. If she doesn’t understand how compensation works, now is a great time to explain that. She works 40 hours a week to do X job for you, and you will not be paying more than the agreed upon salary.

      I’d start by writing out the key expectations that you have. Then I’d practice that conversation with someone you trust. Ideally this would be your boss or HR- if she doesn’t like what you have to say, she may try to go over your head to get her way.

      Then, have the conversation. Your goal is to clearly state your expectations, not get her to agree. She’s going to feel what she feels, and she may have a lot to process.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, I think this is solid advice. It really sounds like you need to sit her down and also explain to her how compensation works. There’s always some hand-holding with new to the work world employees (I have a fair few), but she seems to have some very odd ideas about how pay works in the work-world.

      2. Hannah*

        That’s a very helpful set of instructions, thanks!

        She is really brand new to the work world. It’s not just her first professional job, it’s the first time anybody in her immediate family has held a professional job. So yeah, I don’t have to get her to agree but I do think at this point it’s a genuine misunderstanding.

        1. ferrina*

          fwiw, this is a tough situation if you’re a new manager (I think I read that in your original post). I’ve seen other new managers struggle with really similar circumstances- the learning curve for new managers is tough. Is there a more senior manager who would be able to mentor you? They might be able to help you spot and avoid other situations in the future.

          1. Hannah*

            Thanks! There really isn’t. We were a pretty diffused structure before COVID and now it’s even worse. So I faithfully read AAM and pop in here when I’ve got questions. I really appreciate this platform!

        2. BRR*

          Yeah it’s tough to just know these things. It’s also possible she’s just expecting a raise (not the contractors salary) for taking on new tasks if they’re more complex, which is how things should work.

            1. ferrina*

              Yes! This is great advice! I’ve referred AAM to several young colleagues. Don’t know how many of them actually became readers…..

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Point out (assuming it’s true) that being able to do this new task will help justify a raise she might get in the future.

    6. identifying remarks removed*

      I’d say it’s a good chance that her being “very excited” means she thinks you will pay her overtime to do the job that you would normally have the contractor do.

  101. BayCay*

    My grandboss called me while I was on the toliet….(forehead slap)

    Our new boss (technically my bosses boss) has a weird kind of communication style where he seems to prefer calling over email and texting if he needs something from you personally. I got a bit peeved today because he called me 2 times (once while I was in the bathroom) about small requests that could have been communicated by email or text even. Is there an appropriate way to tell him that I prefer communicating by email or text unless it is an emergency? I work in social media so when I see the grandboss calling, I go into panic mode, and so far, none of his calls have been about anything remotely urgent.

    I already told him this in one of our first initial meetings but I don’t think it landed.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          DEFINITELY don’t answer on the toilet, just because the phone rings doesn’t mean you’re available.

    2. Alianora*

      I don’t think there’s an appropriate way to press this issue since you’ve already mentioned it once. There’s nothing inherently wrong or weird with calling, and the fact is that as employees, we need to adapt to our manager’s communication styles.

      My direct manager doesn’t use the chat system that everyone else at work does. After a few times where I had messaged her and she didn’t reply, or later have the information that I sent her, I realized that it’s better to call her for urgent things.

      It’s not great that you go into a panic when you get a phone call from a higher-up, and I sympathize, but you can work on that. I used to be very anxious about phone calls, but I made myself get used to it, and now it’s just another communication style. There actually are some advantages to calls over emails, although I still prefer to have things in writing.

      If he calls while you’re on the toilet, just call him back when you’re done. It’s not a big deal. (Now, if he gets mad that you’re not available every second of the day, that’s a different problem.)

      1. BayCay*

        The panic isn’t because of being on the phone; I’m comfortable with phone calls. It’s a result of working in a fast-paced industry where typically, when the grandboss calls, it means there is an emergency. I don’t ever plan on answering the phone while I’m in the bathroom, I just found it humorous. I try to be flexible to some degree, but I don’t think it is wrong to set communication boundaries with your manager. If I answered calls about little requests all day from people, I would never actually have time to work.

        1. Alianora*

          Since it clearly doesn’t mean it’s an emergency when it’s coming from him, you should probably recalibrate your reactions here. I’m not saying you need to answer all the time, you can certainly let it go to voicemail if you’re busy, but it’s not reasonable to ask your boss never to call unless it’s an emergency.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      Is he a voicemail person? You could try not answering his calls unless you’re genuinely available to take them and then listening to his voicemails to determine the urgency of the call. If it’s not urgent, you can call him back later (maybe set aside a block of time each day to call him) or answer by email or text.

      But ultimately, he’s the grand boss and this is the way he prefers to communicate. You may have to deal with him calling you for things that could easily be emails. But since he makes so many non-urgent calls, it would be perfectly reasonable to decide that you won’t drop everything to take his calls immediately as long as you respond to them in a timely manner.

      1. BayCay*

        Totally agree, I always will get back to him in a timely manner, but when I have a moment to do so. I’d like to think that if it was ever a true emergency, he’d be calling my boss first.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      He’s the boss. He can use whatever method he wants to reach you.

      But remember… he has no way of knowing if you’re in the bathroom or at lunch or on another call. Unless he’s wildly unreasonable, the guy will understand if you don’t answer every call. But don’t let all of his calls go unanswered– that would be a very bad look.

      He’s not doing anything wrong, you just have different preferences. And in this situation, you’ll have to manage how to make his preferences work with yours. You can say you’re better over email, but if he wants to keep calling, that may be what happens.

    5. PollyQ*

      First, I wouldn’t say that preferring phone calls over text-based messaging is “weird.” It’s just a different preference, and given that he’s got the higher role, I think you can’t do anything more than make a mildly stated request for him to communicate otherwise. But ultimately, he’s the big boss, so he gets to choose.

      when I see the grandboss calling, I go into panic mode

      Second, I think the real fix is for you to retrain your brain not to panic. Now that you know phone calls are his preferred way of reaching you, just tell yourself when he calls that it’s almost certainly not an emergency, but just a regular conversation.

  102. Applesauced*

    Low stakes Friday question: when do you close email with “have a good weekend”?

    I then to do this on Fridays afternoon / when I think it will be my last conversation with someone for the week. I have coworkers that do it all day Friday.

    1. BayCay*

      If I really like that person and have enough energy to type out extra words, then late Friday, sure.

    2. ferrina*

      Depends on the Friday and how much follow up I think that they’ll be.

      I’ll admit, I’ve said “Have a good weekend” in an email at 10am on a Friday because I really, really wanted to discourage follow-ups for that afternoon.

  103. My Feet Hurt*

    Hi all,
    I’m feeling really low unfortunately, as I suspect I will end up quitting my job even though I really don’t want to!! My questions are about to major issues I have with my current company despite the fact that also a big part of the job is fine.

    Question 1) My department is, let’s say, an entertainment department. A skill required of the job I applied for is “tap dancing” as part of bigger performances I would do. However, other people in my team do performances that incorporate a great deal of classic ballet and yet other colleagues do breakdance. As I also have some experience in ballet and breakdance, my job interviewers asked me whether I would occasionally cover for colleagues and also do performances that require a great deal of ballet and breakdancing moves.
    No problem said I.
    However, straight from when I started the job, I was asked to do tap dancing, pas-de bourrés, windmills and head spins and I’ve had to work serious overtime hours on top my full time work schedule in order to keep up. For the better part of a year I’ve been swamped with requests for performances way beyond what I can reasonably manage (despite several conversations with my Entertainment Manager about how to reduce the excessive workload that resulted in no concrete action to take the breakdancing and ballet off my to-do list.

    Can a company reasonably expand the original job’s core responsibilities with other skillsets without clearly stipulating this before hiring you? I’m not talking about skills that are reasonably part of the original job, like say: they want a gardener to mow the lawn and then asking the gardener to also rake the leaves of the grass. I’m talking about skills I’ve worked years at to acquire them.

    Question two: Part of the promised “perks” of my job was to work from home 2 days out of 5 per week. Thus, I needed to connect to the company server. My internet connection works fine, it is fast and stable when I use it with my private device and software. The company software is very similar yet still gave issues when connecting to the point of just failing to connect entirely. The company IT department, my manager and HR were swamped, so I received little to no help, even though it made it impossible for me to work!
    As a last resort, I’ve been using my own technical equipment to solve that issue, but as that equipment was not intended for that purpose and it negatively impacted its longevity, I’ve persistently asked for help from the IT department. My manager has now said that due to limited resources, the IT dep. will not help me solve the most likely cause of the issue but will try some alternative solutions and if that doesn’t work, I will have to work at the company’s office full time. Can a company make me do this? What do you think of this situation?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Your employer (unless you have a contract that says otherwise) can change your job duties at any time. You’ve had repeated conversations with your manager to ask for changes and nothing has happened. It sounds like it won’t change.

      Additionally, the company can change your terms of employment at anytime. So, yes, they can require you to come into the office. Should they? Well, that’s a different story, but they can.

      There is a Captain Awkward concept (and one I 100% have found helpful in my life) known as the Sheelzebub Principle. It’s meant for ending romantic relationships, but I think it also applies to really any relationship and work is a relationship. So, the question is- if nothing changes, how long would you stay? Six months? A year? Five? Because I think you answer that and once you have, I think you will know what you need to do next.

      1. ferrina*

        This is great advice. Yes, your company can do this. Is it a good idea? Well, it depends.

        This company seems like a burn-out factory. You’re allowed to not want to deal with that. I’m also a big fan of the Sheelzebub Principle and use it in all aspects of my life. How long are you willing to work like this?

        Remember, you can always start applying to jobs now and stop if something at your work changes.

    2. Not IT*

      Definitely IT should help with the work computer. Could it be a network issue (like needing a VPN?) That happened to me once.

      1. WellRed*

        When we first went WFH there was a firewall issue that blocked us from logging into vpn ( my team was new to the company).

  104. Ariadne Oliver*

    Anyone here who retired from a high stress, high paying job to do something creative and totally different? Did you take a break before getting started on your new endeavor or did you jump right in? Were there things you would do different in retrospect, things you didn’t think about? Or maybe you found out that doing something you love for money took the joy out of it? My start up costs are fairly minimal and I don’t need to depend on it for income. So that’s a plus. That being said, I’m usually pretty ambitious and like to see some return on my efforts. If anyone would like to share their story, I would love to hear it.

  105. Marie*

    How do you teaching “reading the room” and “being aware of the perspective of others”?

    I have a report who’s been an adequate performer at his current level for a decade. He’s realized getting promoted in his current individual contributor role probably won’t happen. He’s now eyeing management as a possibility. But, he doesn’t seem to understand the perspectives of others and is generally not observant of the larger picture on the team. He has done things like demanding that we open up the office for him in May 2020 because he worked better there. Or saying “the problem is all the new people we’ve hired.” Or being really frustrated and upset when told that we can’t drop everyone else’s projects to put extra people on his. Or assuming that a new hire will be his assistant even when he was told numerous times that wasn’t the case.

    So…how do I teach the soft skills that are missing here? I don’t want to discount him from management outright. A lot of folks thought I’d be a crap manager, but I’m actually quite good. But, if he’s regularly upsetting our customers and his own team members giving him a management position sends the wrong message.

    1. earlgreytea*

      From what you’ve said above it really doesn’t sound like he would be a good candidate for a management position. Soft skills are one thing, but he seems like he has a complete disregard for others in the company. “Regularly upsetting our customers and our own team members” sounds like someone who should be on a PIP, not someone who should even be remotely considered for management. I think you may need to have a very frank conversation with him about what needs to change. This doesn’t seem like a case where he’s just missing some soft skills.

      Just a thought, but is it possible that because other people thought you would be a “crap manager” and you’ve excelled, your judgement of his potential may be a little biased?

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I agree. “an adequate performer at his current level for a decade” isn’t someone who should be elevated to management, especially with the issues you’ve outlined here. He seems pretty self involved and doesn’t have good judgment – that is not management material. And think of the message it sends to the people who have to deal with him and see him move up! I wouldn’t go down this road.

        1. WellRed*

          I’m so confused by that. Why is he being considered for a mgt role at all? Adequate? Is that the bar?

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You may not be able to.

      You can try shock therapy – “Fergus, there’s no way you’re getting promoted to management unless you can fix a bunch of problems (then give the list). The big picture is that you seem to instinctively jump to “what’s in it for me” and ignore the perspectives of everyone else. Managers need to be able to easily and quickly put themselves in other peoples’ shoes, and you aren’t showing the slightest sign of being able to do that.”

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I tend to agree with others that you might be projecting a bit of the “no one thought I could do this, but I can” onto Fergus. Someone who regularly upsets customers, wants a new hire to be his assistant when they are not, demands extra people on his projects, thinks new people are a problem and regularly gets frustrated is maybe not someone who should be in management.

    4. ferrina*

      This….is not someone who should be a manager. This person is an AAM letter waiting to happen.

      Let’s recap- he blindly prioritizes his own desires over the company’s needs and other’s needs. He makes unreasonable demands of company resources. He assumed that a new hire would be his assistant and continued to assume that even when told that wasn’t true! And he regularly upsets everyone around him!

      Does he see where he has room to improve? Has he asked for help? I’d bet that he thinks he’s just fine, it’s everyone else that needs to change. And you can’t change someone that doesn’t want to change and/or doesn’t think that they need to change. They may temporarily do what they need to to check the boxes, but then will revert right back once they have their needs met.

      I hear you saying you don’t want to discount him, but you don’t say that you think he would be a good manager. Do you? If he had a young new hire that reported to him right now, would that person get a good start in their own career, or would they suffer under his management style?

    5. Qwerty*

      No, no, no! This is not someone who should be prepped for management! He treated the new hire like his assistant! (Add several more red flags to that statement if the new hire was a woman, person of color, etc)

      You also need to rethink the statement about this guy being an adequate performer given the description you provided. Getting along with others is a primary job function. Providing adequate work while being an active nuisance is not a decent performer, but a low performer. These are all pretty big issues that you’ve brought up. Assuming someone will be the assistant should have resulted in a serious conversation – continuing to do so after being told *numerous times* it was false assumption should have been triggering all sorts of flags for you.

      Remember that as a manager, you only tend to see the tip of the iceberg. So if there are all of these major interpersonal problems that you can see, I can only imagine how bad it is for the rest of your team to work with him. You need to be having serious conversations with this guy about that his behavior cannot continue and be clear with him that he is not succeeding in his current role. If you are considering coaching him into a manager role, odds are that you are enabling his dysfunction in other ways.

    6. GNG*

      Oh noooo. It sounds like your report is at least 2 standard deviations below the mean in terms of regular expected professional behavior. On the manager-potential curve, he’s like 5 standard D below.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Soft skills are stuff like being able to frame your conversation in a way that the other person understands, or tell people “no” without making them feel attacked, or facilitating a meeting in such a way that it stays on track and everyone gets heard.

      Plenty of people lack soft skills, but are not entitled, self-important jerks.

      Insisting that the new hire is his assistant? How is that about “not seeing other people’s perspectives?” That’s not a perspective, it’s a fact that he just doesn’t like. Pitching a fit when his project doesn’t get everything he wants?

      This guy’s issue isn’t a lack of soft skills. It’s selfishness, fundamental lack of maturity, and no ability to regulate his emotions appropriately. You are cutting him way too much slack already.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      This is not someone who should be a manager!!

      It would be one thing if, say, he were too blunt and needed to learn more diplomatic language. But every example you’ve given is someone who either doesn’t recognize or doesn’t care that other people have perspectives and needs different from his. And that’s a disaster in the making for a manager. If you give him power over other people, he’ll abuse it, drive out the people he’s directly managing, plus some of the people who aren’t his direct reports but are junior to him, and he’ll alienate his peers. And he won’t have a clue about what’s happening and why.

      After ten years in his position he performs the technical parts of his job adequately, and the interpersonal parts poorly. Just because he wants to be promoted doesn’t mean you’re obliged to do so.

  106. earlgreytea*

    How can I tactfully ask what my future looks like in a very small company? I work for a small ad agency in a department of three people.

    I’m paid okay for our area, but severely underpaid for my job in general and could make much more working remotely. I’m thinking of applying for other jobs even though I LOVE my current job. I would 100% stay if I knew there was any kind of possibility for advancement, but I don’t know what that would look like in such a small agency.

    Is there a way to ask my boss about this without making it sound like I’m job searching? She’s the owner of the company so she would have a good idea of future plans for the company and our department.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you can just ask, “What does the future of my position look like?” I’ve been asked that and it doesn’t make me think the person is job hunting- it makes me think they are curious about the future of their position. I do try to be honest if there isn’t a future and have told people that I would support them if they decide they can not stay because of that, but I never assume that’s why someone is asking.

  107. My Brain Is Exploding*

    Are there any other interactions you have with them that are weird? Do you think you might be misinterpreting their facial expression for smirking? Do they say it to others? What they say is just such a non sequitur, and the fact that they always say it makes me think it’s just a weird habit/go-to phrase/verbal tic/way to end the conversation. If it really annoys you, find them at another time and ask them about (“I’ve noticed you end conversations with…. And find it very confusing…”).

  108. Yuck! Pfaugh!*

    I realized this week that I need to start applying to other jobs. I really don’t enjoy my job, I have only one real avenue for professional development (more on that in a second), my salary only works for me because of constant OT, and nobody I knew had received raises in 2 years until…

    …the most valuable member of our team quit 3 or 4 months ago! This gave my boss a jolt, since our team isn’t big and anyone else leaving would be a disaster for him. The rest of the team all got something to entice them to stay, mostly nicer titles and (I think) raises, with the one person who’s been struggling taking the newly vacant window office. I got offered the vacant position, and declined. Instead I asked if I could have the part of my job I like least taken from me in favor of more responsibility in the area I like most. I’m the only one of my colleagues with a gift for teapot analysis, and our company needs someone to step up and do more of it. He said that was a good idea and that he’d talk to the department that would need to take on some of my current duties.

    Well, nothing’s come of it so far. I checked in with him last month and it sounds like Other Department is dragging their feet. This would be a huge career opportunity for me, since I don’t have any formal training in teapot analysis, and I would have to stay at least a year to take advantage of it. On the other hand, I’m underpaid and want fully remote work, which we’re not allowed. It would be a weight off my back to be out of the company ASAP.

    I really don’t know what to do. Start looking now? If I take a new job now, am I hanging my boss out to dry? I really need him as a reference. How long should it normally take for a suggested promotion to be ironed out and approved? Part of me wants to hang around through 2021 (Christmas bonuses have been mentioned, and I earned that money!!!) Should I just hang around for another year? Realizing I wanted to leave made my week so much better… Help?

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know how long job hunts take in your field, but in mine they can literally take years. It took me two years to find this position. Also, you are not hanging your boss out to dry. Your boss should know that people leave. They leave all the time. I always hope my employees enjoy their work with me and I hope they go if they get a better option elsewhere. Jobs are transient. You lose nothing at least exploring your options, even if you decide in the end to stay.

      1. Yuck! Pfaugh!*

        Two years!!! No, I’m not sure exactly how long it would take, but I would say less than a year. A couple of months if I get lucky.

        My boss SHOULD know that people leave, but unfortunately “should” is different than “does.” Everyone who knew our coworker who left knew she wasn’t happy and was probably trying to leave, but he got totally blindsided by it. He sounded very calm and professional about it afterwards, but I don’t really think that’s how he felt. He also has a really hands off management style (we see him every so often when he’s in town), so I’m concerned about him thinking that his working on changing my job is a significant investment on his part.

    3. ferrina*

      Start looking.

      Right now you have no other job offer, and you have no promotion. You should let them race and see which one you get first.

      Also, it’s not “hanging your boss out to dry” if you take a new job. People leave jobs. If you don’t give people growth, decent salary, or raises, people definitely leave. That’s natural consequences, and of course you need to look out for you. Especially since your company sure isn’t doing it.
      You can always use the classic positioning “This offer was so good that I just couldn’t pass it up.”

    4. Skeeder Jones*

      He basically asked you what you needed to stay. You stated what you wanted. They didn’t deliver. Feel free to leave guilt-free!

  109. Anon for this*

    I made a job offer for the lowest-level role on my team yesterday, after getting glowing references. Candidate had been told there was no room to negotiate above a certain number, as it would turn the role exempt to pay more. We did offer that top number, as I believe the salary for the role is low for the area (this is a large nonprofit in a major city; we seem to not be adjusting salaries quickly enough to new market realities). We have room to promote the candidate someday though, so there are prospects and room to grow.

    They came back, said they were in final rounds somewhere else and asked for more money. We are seeing if the role can be bumped to exempt, but I doubt that will be allowed from what I know about the job level.

    My concern is that my manager directly asked them the prior day if they were applying anywhere else, and they said no. I know candidates often deflect on that question, but it seems like an outright lie and I don’t know how to feel about it. It’s possible they got offered an interview for a role they thought was dead in the water during the intervening 24 hours, but that seems unlikely? Or is the lie that they are in final talks elsewhere? I am all for them trying to negotiate for more money, though I am not sure this ploy will work and again, not liking the apparent lie. Would this concern anyone else? (I also sometimes wonder if young candidates get crappy advice from their parents in this stuff.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If somebody asks you a rude, personal, or inappropriate question, you are under no obligation to give a truthful answer. Especially when you’re caught flat-footed like that.

      I would not ascribe nefarious intent or moral failure to the candidate for this. Not at all.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        Agreed 100%. And frankly, would the company be honest if she were their top candidate or a second choice or about how much flexibility there really is related to pay or benefits? Probably not.

        1. Anon for this*

          I would be honest, and in this case the pay ceiling is very real, but they have no way to be sure of that from the outside. We will see if we can offer them more, but as I said, doubtful I’ll be allowed to. The role was made non-exempt a couple of years ago and I doubt the org will let me recategorize the position to change that.

      2. Anon for this*

        My reply to you below got misplaces but thanks! I have only ever hired one other person, before trying to hire two this week. The previous hire and the first offer went this week went very smoothly, and I’m still figuring out the less straightforward parts of the process.

    2. CatCat*

      It wouldn’t concern me because (1) it’s not clear it is a lie, and (2) no one is entitled to an honest answer to a question that is none of their business.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Honestly, I think if I was asked that on the spot, I might answer No, even if I was applying elsewhere. It’s really no one’s business, but I’ve also seen managers penalize people who said Yes. I always assume every candidate is applying elsewhere- as I would be if I was them. So, I wouldn’t count this too harshly against someone.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks! It’s not something I would have asked and I’m a bit annoyed my manager did. Candidate hadn’t disclosed any other roles to HR, but I wouldn’t expect them to. I hope we can offer more, or else that our killer benefits package helps a bit if the other offer comes through. But I doubt we can increase the offer unless we can get a signing bonus allowed. This will all just have to play itself out now.

    4. pandq*

      I am not understanding how more money “turns a role exempt”. I think that is the reverse of how it works. It is the role itself that defines if it’s exempt or not, right? And, at least in California, if the role makes the employee exempt, they have to make above a certain amount.
      However, to give my opinion on your actual question it definitely would not concern me. They might have thought that was the answer you wanted to hear.

      1. Anon for this*

        The role is partly administrative. The non-exempt thing also has to do with our internal job bands. The whole job band, including that role, was recategorized as non-exempt a couple of years ago, without my input. I was not too pleased about it.

        Someone was just promoted out of the role, with a new title and job band, and is now exempt. It’s all very rigid here in terms of this stuff. We have definitely raised the concern that our salaries don’t seem to be matching current market expectations. This salary is the same one we offered to the person I hired two years ago. For this particular role, HR keeps telling me they can’t do anything about the top of the range, though as I said, we have asked them to rethink it in this case.

        For another role, a level up, I was just able to get the salary range increased, but that role was always exempt.

      2. PollyQ*

        It’s a combination of pay and job duties. So, even if you were doing exempt-type work, if you weren’t being paid enough money, you still would be non-exempt. On the flip side, if you’re doing non-exempt work, but making more than the threshhold, you’d also still be non-exempt.

        But if there are administrative/supervisory duties, as there seem to be here, AND the salary is above the line, then it would likely be an exempt role.

        1. Anon for this*

          Yes, I believe that’s exactly the case here. I held this role back in the day, before they made it non-exempt. I think maybe the state threshold for exemption changed in the interim and they eventually reclassified the role as administrative, too. We work 35 hour weeks at all levels, si overtime never really becomes an issue.

          I believe the offered salary also leaves room for the person to get an annual raise (which happens like clockwork) but remain non-exempt. The employee formerly in this role did receive a raise before being promoted to the next level.

          1. Anon for this*

            That does raise the question of why they can’t raise the starting salary a bit and agree to do so. I hope the compensation team agrees to do so, but I’ve been told before that it’s pretty firm.

    5. Daffodilly*

      Not understanding AT ALL your “it would turn the role exempt” excuse.
      Also, you’re paying below market rate and you’re shocked someone wants to be paid more?
      And you think candidates should have to tell you stuff that’s not your business?
      No, you should not be concerned about the candidate’s behavior. You should be concerned about yours.

      1. Anon for this*

        I am am told by the org that a role above a certain pay amount can’t be non-exempt. I believe there is a weekly amount one must make below for a role to remain non-exempt on this state. I’d rather not disclose the state. I think it would also change the internal job level, which I may not be allowed to do. I just hired for the role that is one level up, in fact, and was able to get the salary raised there, I am NOT at all shocked that they want more money. I don’t blame them at all and wish my hands weren’t tied. We have made the request but I expect it to be denied because of this bureaucratic nonsense. Believe me, if I could do more, I would.

      2. Anon for this*

        Also I am relatively new to hiring and just genuinely trying to understand the norms here. I did not ask the candidate this question. I don’t appreciate the attacking tone.

    6. Anon for this*

      I wish I could add an edited comment. I never said I’d disqualify this person based on this, but was just wondering how to feel about it. The offer has been made and will stand. I’m relatively new to hiring and just genuinely trying to understand norms. I’ve only ever held jobs at one org outside of academia as well, so I only did one “real world “ job search after years of grad school. Ask a Manager is my go to for all this stuff as a result.

      I’ve explained in other comments about the non-exempt thing and salary ceiling as best I can understand it. I’ve pushed back on that, but from experience with managing someone in this role (who was eventually promoted), I expect that to fail because my org is rigid about job bands.

      1. BRR*

        For How to feel about it. Why did your manager ask the question? What were they hoping to get from it? Honestly the only reason a candidate should be asked that is if they’re you’re top choice and you need to push up your own timeline to get them an offer and even then you phrase it differently. Your manager really has no right to that information though and put the candidate in an awkward spot. You should not harbor any ill will to the candidate and think less of your manager.

        1. Anon for this*

          Manager is now on vacation and will be till this is all resolved, but before they went, only said “hope we get the person!” So no one is trying to disqualify them. I don’t know why the question was asked. I didn’t request that manager do that.

          My spouse, who has a lot more real world work experience then me, thinks it’s not a weird question to ask a candidate at all, but I had a sense from previous here on here people here would think it is weird. Our HR person also asks this question of everyone, which I guess it not surprise. So you see, I’ve genuinely gotten mixed messages over whether it’s the norm to ask or not.

          But as I said, the offer stands. I want the person on the team and would be excited to get them. I asked here because I was genuinely confused, not because I want to be a jerk and get validation for it. If I just wanted to be a jerk, I wouldn’t have bothered asking for advice :)

          1. BRR*

            Oh sorry I hope I didn’t give the impression I thought you were the jerk! I was just trying to answer your actual question since most people seemed to want to talk about exempt/non-exempt. It wouldn’t raise any concerns with me.

            1. Anon for this*

              Undestood! I was generally on the defense and wanting to explain my POV more. Sorry it came out in response to you, and I appreciate your responses to me. I’ve also been a little distracted waiting to hear about a potential family health crisis today – all seems okay for now though. I think I’ve been expressing myself poorly as a result. My thinking is kind of piecemeal and I’ve had a lot of typos (I was using my tablet earlier, which I’m bad at typing on).

              I wanted to add that this is the top and in fact only candidate right now. They’d probably be the top choice even if I had some other decent choices, though. I don’t know how my manager phrased the question, though. They’ve been working at this place since the start of their career and may also be lacking knowledge of norms elsewhere….

              1. Mr. Thingy*

                You are doing fine. Thanks for coming here to ask your question. I know you didn’t ask the applicant whether they were applying elsewhere — someone else did that — but just wanted to say how we handle that. At my organization we don’t ask if people are applying elsewhere, but we do tell people in whom we are interested to feel free to contact us if they get another offer and need an answer from us. Sometimes we can’t speed up the decisionmaking, but we do want the option to try do so if one of our top applicants needs an answer earlier. Good luck and best wishes on the health thing.

                1. Anon for this*

                  Thank you! I believe that’s why HR asks. It’s possible my manager may have asked for that reason too. The candidate for the other role I hired for this week did have a competing offer, so we made sure get our offer to them in a timely manner this week. Fortunately we were the top choice.

                  We made this second offer this week because we ended up wanting to be quick for our own reasons, and most of the person’s references were on vacation next week, anyway.

  110. Anon for this*

    Heh, my manager can be a bit…. direct, that’s for sure. I can see it have putting the candidate off. (I wouldn’t have asked this, and didn’t know manage had.) Thanks, Alton’s Twin!

  111. Laney Boggs*

    ~COVID Warning~

    So last week our location implemented a 100% mask ban (that no one listens to). The exception is “when you’re eating or drinking during breaks.”

    Well, my manager just sent out a meeting invite and “breakfast will be provided.”

    A) I’m fuming
    B) what do I do

    1. BayCay*

      I’m assuming you meant a mask mandate, as in people have to wear masks.

      I think it depends on whether or not this meeting is required for you. If you’re not required to be there, you don’t have to go. If you have to go, you’re not required to eat food. If you’re worried about other people eating, consider sitting apart from the group(s).

      I get the frustration with management saying masks are required but here, let’s gather with some grub. We have that issue too. But I think it’s something you can generally avoid if you need or would like.

    2. ferrina*

      Can you not go? That would be my first option.

      If you do go, wear a mask. Bring sanitizer. Be lovely and cheerful and non-judgmental. You are doing what you understand to be safe, and you’re okay with forgoing some bagels, but you understand that in these uncertain times, everyone needs to make their own decision.

      Yes, this is a silly unnecessary risk, but hearts and minds are better won by kindness (and where the heart goes, the mind will follow).
      Then have a good stiff drink when you get to a safe spot. Good luck!

    3. Double A*

      I’m really confused about this situation. Did you mean mask mandate, which no one is listening to? Why is that invite making you fume specifically?

      1. CaroleMiller*

        The exception to the mask mandate is when people are eating, so it sounds like the manager is providing breakfast at this meeting *specifically so* attendees don’t have to a wear a mask. They’ll be eating. I have managers, coworkers, colleagues, and students intentionally bring food to meetings and classes all the time to avoid wearing a mask. They’ll draw out a maskless meal or even a Starbucks drink foooorrreeeeevvveeeeer, and, by policy, it’s 100% permitted.

  112. FD*

    So disappointed, I got turned down from the job I had gotten two interviews for. I fit all the qualifications they wanted except that I have a lot of experience instead of technically having the degree (this is something you can learn without having an official degree). They reposted the job with $10k more money and a higher level title and in the rejection email they said that it was harder than expected to replace these employees with 28 and 42 years of tenure respectively (this was one of two roles they were filling due to employees retiring).

    I gave a professional response but the thing that really stung is that the employee I’d be replacing literally worked her way up from being an admin so they KNOW that employees can learn on the job for this role.

    I have some more applying to do but man that sucks. It hurts to be, apparently, a pretty darn good candidate but to be turned down because they want a unicorn.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I got to the end stage of 8 interviews before I got my current position. It sucked. People would always say- it’s better to get to the final interview. And I know it is, but… man, it was tough. Something about knowing how close I got made the rejection sting a lot more. The thing I told myself (which only helped a little) was that I had gotten as far I could get with things that were under my control and after that it was really out of my hands. However, someday you may be that unicorn for a company, so don’t give up hope.

      1. FD*

        That’s fair, and I’m still plugging away. Just tough when you’re burned out and are ready to get O-U-T.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m not sure they necessarily want a unicorn. That’s a LOT of experience, and even if they worked their way up it’s likely the role has changed a lot since they learned it, and that they are looking for someone to come in who won’t take another 20 years to get up to par.

      I’m sure it wouldn’t take you 20 years, but it sounds like they’re just looking to make it a higher level role for someone who requires less lead time. I’m sorry, getting rejected sucks, but don’t take it personally.

  113. Advice for starting a new job remotely*

    I started my new nonprofit job this week and I’m really excited about it. My manager and team are fantastic, the work is fulfilling and interesting, and my skillset is a perfect match.

    I’ve been working remotely in my old job for a year and a half but starting a new job remotely is a new experience. My organization is welcoming and has good communication systems. What I’m looking for are tips for starting a new role remotely. I welcome advice from both managers who’ve hired people during the pandemic and from people who have started their jobs remotely about what has been helpful for you.

    1. ferrina*

      Virtual coffee. In my first month starting virtually, I set up a 30-minute coffee with my whole team and anyone else at my level that I’d be working with frequently. Some of us do a monthly coffee now. It’s a really helpful way to get a sense of who’s who and where to go to get questions answered.
      Some helpful topics:
      – how long have you been here?
      – how has the company changed since you’ve been here (if they’ve been there a long time)?
      – any tips for starting during a pandemic (if they’ve recently started)?
      – who are some good resources for me to know about or people whose brains I should pick?
      – what can I do in my role to make your life easier? Also, what things could I do that would make your life harder (so I can make sure to not do them!)?
      – any questions you have about their department, what they do, etc. No question is too dumb. I’ve literally asked “um, so, what does your department actually do?” They totally understand

  114. ThePear8*

    Hello lovely commentariat, I have a few questions I’ve accumulated that I would love to get some input on:
    1. Asking for a friend: any advice or good resources (articles etc) for writing a CV? My friend is looking at applying to a lot of jobs outside of the US but neither of us have ever written a CV before, and most of Alison’s advice being US-tailored doesn’t seem to cover much in CVs (but correct me if I’m wrong and there is an AAM post with CV tips!)

    2. Question for my own resume, how would I specify the end date of a job that is sort of more of a freelance/on-call thing? I’ve sometimes worked for a company that provides services at special events (like concerts and theatrical events), so I pretty much only work for them on an as-needed basis when they have events in my city/area and that line up with my availability (which is very not often). Right now I have the job listed on my resume and LinkedIn as current, but since I haven’t worked an event since pre-pandemic and they’re so scarce, I’m wondering if I should modify it to an end date around the last event instead and then just modify it in the future if I work future events. Thoughts?

    1. Nesprin*

      Important distinction: in the US, only faculty use CV’s which are an unusual beast and I’d recommend going to academia-blogs like the professor is in or female science professor.
      Outside of the US, CV is synonymous with resume.

      1. Nervous New Grad*

        Thanks for that note. Yeah my friend is looking to move outside of the US so I think a lot of the job postings he’s looking at require a CV instead of a resume, and he’s been struggling to write a good one since we’re both in the US and haven’t ever had to before.

  115. LilPinkSock*

    I suddenly find myself job searching, against my will (acquisition, layoffs, etc.). I have worked at my current company for two years, and was promoted a few months ago–my new title comes with some new responsibilities, and a lot of the same ones as the old role.

    How would you format this on a resume?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve seen it done two ways-
      |
      Option A:
      Assistant Groomer, Llama Groomer Inc, 1850-1853
      Associate Groomer, Llama Groomer Inc, 1854-1856
      Job Duties/Accomplishments

      Option B:
      Llama Groomer Inc, 1850-1856
      Assistant Groomer 1850-1853
      Job Duties/Accomplishments
      Promoted to Associate Groomer 1854
      Continued X Job Duties
      New Job Duties/Accomplishments

      I think either one works, just depends on your preferences.

    2. Rhymetime*

      For my recent resume that got me a job, here’s how I listed it.

      Senior Llama Groomer and Llama Groomer – Llmas R Us, Andes Mountains, 1931-1935 (promoted in 1934)

      Then I listed all of the job responsibilities for both positions.

  116. Productive Perry*

    Just a work brag that happened today and made me feel good about myself…

    A situation happened yesterday and I had to deal with it today with a lot of unknowns and uncertainties. I did so and just sent out the finished product.

    My grand-boss sent this to me in response.

    Excellent work, one more example to put on your brag file for your evaluation. You have confirmed once again that you can deliver on a new, unexpected and complex task with a tight deadline. Your communication below is very clear in terms of what you did and what remains to be confirmed.

    Many thanks for a job well-done!

    4. ferrina*

      Woohoo! That’s awesome!
      I hope you have a brag file- it’s a great resource when it’s time for annual reviews or resume updating.

  117. Nervous New Grad*

    How to ask about a perk related to the office vaccine policy? My company announced they are requiring employees who enter the office or attend in-person company events to be fully vaccinated, and have a grace period to allow employees to get the vaccine. I’ve already been fully vaccinated since Spring, I’m a permanently remote employee but there’s a chance in the near future I’ll have to fly out for an in-person meeting. Employees are allowed to take reasonable time off during the work day to get the vaccine, but I’ve heard from my team lead that already fully vaccinated employees can just take an extra day off, it’s not counted in our PTO bank but as long as we loop in our manager and they approve it we can take it. I’ve only heard this from my team lead and no higher up sources yet so I haven’t confirmed fully if that’s the case, but if it is I would like to take advantage of it…and I have a one-on-one coming up with my manager that might be a good time to ask him about it. I’m still fairly new and in accordance to all the advice I’ve read/received, am avoiding taking any time off for my first six months on the job, but also since this is kind of an exception to regular PTO, if he verifies what I’ve heard is correct I would like to take advantage of the time off. What’s a good way to bring this up/go about asking when I speak with him?

    1. Qwerty*

      Just bring it up directly and simply. “Does the time off allowance for getting the vaccine apply retroactively for those who already vaccinated?”. Or if this is openly discussed on your team and/or other people have already taken their special day, just jump right into it “I heard that we are allowed an unofficial day off if we are already vaccinated – how should I let you know when I plan to take mine?”

  118. Sad Anon*

    My Dad passed and I took bereavement leave. I was out a few days before it happened because I was at the hospital with him. When I came back to the office, everyone was very sympathetic and nice, except “Mary”. Mary and I have never been best friends, but she just said “Hello” to me and that was it. She then went out of her way to ignore me and literally talked to everyone else *except* me. It’s a small office, so this kind of stuff is very obvious.

    She doesn’t have to handle any of my workload, so that isn’t a reason for her to be mad that I’m out of the office.

    I coughed once and Mary made a comment about it. She and another coworker made a comment about how I didn’t sound happy about something. (Um, hello? I just lost my Dad!)

    Throughout the day, people from other departments that I work with came by to give their condolences. Then at the end of the day, Mary sighed loudly and begrudgingly said that she was sorry for my loss and that they missed me.

    It upsets me because it’s so petty and rude. I almost wished that she hadn’t have said anything because it was so obvious that she didn’t want to say anything.

    I’m still grieving so maybe that’s why it stings, but why are people like this?

    1. Rainy*

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      Some people are just jerks. I think you’re probably right that it’s bothering you more right now–especially if she’s always like this to some degree. When I encounter someone like this, I try to remember that it’s got to be even worse to be Mary than it is to be around her, because at least you get some Mary-free time.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!*

      First, I am so sorry about your dad. I can only imagine how you are feeling right now.

      If you can, try to ignore Mary. You may be feeling a bit more emotional and little things could bother you more. She may not know how to express sympathy or it may be painful for herself because it reminds her of a family member’s passing. She may not know if you wanted anyone to say something (some people don’t) and was airing on the side of caution of not saying anything at all.

      Did she normally talk to you before or is she just now freezing you out?

      The comments about coughing and not sounding happy are rude and tone deaf. If they continue I would maybe try and have a conversation. but otherwise let it go. Who knows, maybe Mary’s dad died in a similar way and she is having a hard time being reminded by it by seeing your grief and its coming out in strange ways.

      Good luck and you have my thoughts

    3. Renee Remains the Same*

      I’m so sorry. I lost my father last year. Grief is unique, so I won’t presume that you’ll feel the same way I did/do… but I will say that bereavement brings up a lot of emotions that can be difficult to manage and can create drama where none existed before. So first and foremost be kind to yourself.

      I still have bouts of irritation and frustration and my bandwidth for dealing with aggravating people is much lower than it was before. While this means I keep a tighter lid on my external reactions, I also have stopped caring so much about what others do, particularly when it has no direct impact on me. The truth is Mary will always be Mary. And if Mary is rude than Mary is rude. You do not need Mary to like you. You do not need Mary to say hello to you. And in fact, I would argue that by empowering yourself “not to care” about these things, you will feel so much freer.

      Don’t get me wrong, if she’s aware of your loss and isn’t being considerate, that makes Mary a jerk. But, you knew Mary was a jerk.

      On the flip side, I will also say that MANY people have no idea how to react to someone who has lost a loved one. And I include myself in that scenario. Before I lost my dad, I just assumed that a coworker or acquaintance wouldn’t want to hear some cliched version of “I’m sorry for your loss.” So I carried on and treated them kindly but didn’t acknowledge their situation. When I received words of support from folks after my loss, I realized the significance of it all. (Well… almost, some people overcompensate and share their experience with loss, which somehow then eclipses your own and that’s kind of not cool, but hey at least they tried)

      Sorry, this is a bit rambly, but I just wanted to take away your burden of Mary being a jerk. Put Mary on the shelf and only take her down as needed.

      1. WellRed*

        I co-sign all this. Mary may just be rude but so many people are awkward around death. Like Renee, I’m much better at it now having been through it.

  119. cubone*

    Not sure if this will get seen, but: I’ve been at my new job for half a year (program manager in a nonprofit). We have a new marketing director who started a couple months before me. He is … bizarrely demanding of “overviews” and “content” that “explains” our programs to him, but the stuff I give him (the documents that I was given to understand our programs) are never “what he’s looking for”. I have tried to ask for details of WHAT he wants to understand, but will get vague answers (“I need to understand how this program works so I can communicate that in our advertising”, but both the 1 page succinct overview and 10 page detailed program plan document are “not sufficient” and he wants “something that helps me understand this program”).

    He has been in multiple meetings where we deep dive into these programs and the logic behind them. Also, not only is he asking for these things, but he’s doing it each time we have a new project. Eg. Impact report = “please send me all docs related to programs A, B, C so I can write about them”. Updating the website = “please send me all docs related to programs A, B, C so I can write about them”. Presentation to the board = “please send me all docs related to programs A, B, C so I can write about them”. We only have 3 programs. I know it’s my job to understand the ins and outs, but there’s only a couple other things this NP does, so…… what, lol. I have literally pointed him to every document that exists for each program, and summarized them in every possible variation (a sentence, paragraph, page, binder, etc.).

    Each time I have sent basically here’s the long, here’s the short, does that work? He says no, it’s not “helping him understand”, I offer to walk him through it, and he just eventually doesn’t answer (tbh I think his direct reports, who are not idiots, just fill in the blanks or talk him off coming back to me). I offered meetings to discuss, answer q’s, but he talked nonstop whole time about what he needs and asked me what docs he can read on his own time because he would prefer to get the info that way.

    I don’t know if I keep trying or go to my boss, and if I go to my boss I know I should focus on how it’s impacting me (aka making me feel like I’m losing my mind), but the core of it feels like what I’m really saying us “he doesn’t seem to understand the core functions of our business after nearly a year to be able to market them, and his demands for my help are confusing and aggressive”

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Wait, he’s asked you multiple times for multiple different projects to summarize the same 3 programs, and he’s been there a year? I could see if he didn’t understand the particulars of certain aspects and needed some help with clarity, but if he still can’t grasp the basics, I’d say it’s time to go to your boss and ask how much time to continue to invest in the Things You Have Already Done Multiple Times. Highlight the things you have offered Clueless, what (and how!) he asked for, and ask how boss would like you to proceed.

      You have a job already, and it is not holding Clueless’s hand.

      1. cubone*

        thank you and yes, it’s so unbelievable I almost don’t… believe myself? Like I keep double checking what I sent the last time. I think what MIGHT be happening is that there’s something he wants to exist but doesn’t and he isn’t coming out and asking for us to make him whatever “it” is. He came from another non-profit and I wonder if they presented their info differently, and he’s trying to hint/get at something he expects us to do, but doesn’t have the words for it. Or, he is just clueless. It may just be that.

    2. CLC*

      If you do decide to talk to your boss about it I’d phrase it in meaningful ways that it’s impeding you and impacting your ability to perform your own job responsibilities. Instead of phrasing it in an accusatory way such as “no matter how much I explain it to him he doesn’t seem to understand” try something more along the lines of “the constant requests and explanations are taking up X amount of my time and while that made sense initially we’re coming up on the 1 year mark and given my current task list I cannot afford to spend so much time sending the exact same information over and over again.” That or, ideally, if you have the professional leverage and your boss’s approval, when he asks for more information say something along the lines of: “I have given you all the material I have on this program. Let me know if you have specific questions and we can go through them together.” Personally, I would demand he provide specific questions that he wants answered after the first summary I compiled…. but you seem to be far past that. Ideally what would have happened would have been: Send all documents in one go>Send 1 self-written summary if requested>then (professionally) demand specific questions sent via email before investing any more of your time on the issue). But I’m also very no nonsense and some nonprofit spaces don’t support that demeanor as much. For you, perhaps talk to your boss first and get his approval to demand specific questions going forward. Hope this helps! Good luck!

      1. cubone*

        thank you – love your wording! And yes, I have definitely been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too generous, which I chalk up to being less secure in the role at first, not knowing the culture, and (at first) not knowing the programs as confidently to push back. So I’m gonna do a much better job tracking what I’ve given him and what he asks for and push back a bit more.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is this person’s background in some other area of marketing/advertising, like soap, or cars, or entertainment, and they just do not get what nonprofits do? This is baffling.

      Can you strike up a conversation with his direct reports and find out if they can help you figure out what he thinks he needs that he’s not getting?

      As far as going to your boss, I’d leave out words like ‘aggressive’. “He asks me for more and more detail, over and over again, for all the programs, and the time I spend walking him through that is cutting into my own work.” Let your boss draw the judgements from there.

      1. cubone*

        ha, well… I have gotten from his direct reports just that he “doesn’t understand”. They’re very professional and don’t get into complaining/venting, but will say “oh yeah… [director] seems to … not understand.” I haven’t pushed for me and they haven’t offered, but .. yup.

        Also just in your note about it being baffling, I will also share that once he asked for a more specific program advertising document, so I sent him the location where it was in the marketing folder (thinking a) subtly saying it’s in your own folder, silly, and b) giving him the location to find said things rather than an attachment). His answer was: “no, this needs to come from YOU. I can’t assume that our documents are the most up to date since you are the program manager and there may have been changes we haven’t’ made”. So I… downloaded the file and sent it to him as an attachment and he said “great, thank you for understanding.” ………………………..

        1. CLC*

          Yeah.. ideally you would have pushed back here and said “I assure you the most up to date documents are the ones you have.” It also just struck me that, if you have the capability, (make sure your org allows this) all of the documents could go into one large shared folder (with the individual programs having their own folders nested within nice and organized). That way the most up to date documents are always in the shared folder and you can repeat “all of the documents are in shared folder X under Y” and “all documents in the shared folder are up to date” like a mantra.

    4. Renee Remains the Same*

      I’m not a Marketing person, but I’ve worked with loads of Marketing people. My guess?… He doesn’t know how to write and he doesn’t know how to tweak information to fit the format he’s writing for. So each time he asks for these documents, he’s hoping there’s something that exists that he can copy and paste and toss into something.

      I would stop trying to help him. You can’t. He’s incompetent. But you need to protect yourself. So… when he asks for information about the 3 programs you run – send him the most comprehensive document you have that outlines the program, how it works, who it supports, how it’s successful. That should give him everything he needs for a board presentation or advertising copy or what have you. Send the same (or updated) version of the document everytime. (It’s not like you don’t have it handy!) If he still doesn’t “get it” offer to schedule a visit to see it work in person (if that’s possible). But you should not be grilling him to find out what he needs. He should be grilling you. And not with assinine non-questions, but with actual real questions that specify what he doesn’t understand.

      And if he doesn’t have real questions, you can quite literally tell him, “I’m sorry, the document is pretty comprehensive. I don’t understand what additional information you’re looking for.” (I have found, of late, that playing dumb with manipulative people is an excellent way to force them to admit they’re being manipulative… which they don’t like, so they’ll stop asking such questions)

      1. cubone*

        super helpful, thank you! And that’s actually a great perspective and I think you might be right. It’s like he’s always looking for something “different”.

      2. Free Meerkats*

        I think Renee hit this solidly on the head. He wants to to keep rewording what you give him until he can steal it and claim credit.

        It sounds like your long version is comprehensive and every time he asks, give it to him with a new date on it. When he does his doesn’t understand act ask specific questions, then don’t give into the desire to help, just keep asking the same specific question until you get an actionable answer.

  120. annonymouse*

    So we hired a new person for the front desk at work. He will be part time Taking my old position (however I was full time between 2 departments. He will be just this department and only part time.

    I am now the “senior” front desk person. I have never been in a position where I am looked at to have more knowledge, understanding or experience.

    My imposter syndrome is showing again and I am super nervous for Monday. And tips? I wont be his supervisor. For the university we have the same title but internally in our department i will be the front desk coordinator and he will be assistant

    1. identifying remarks removed*

      If you don’t already have it can you put together a job guide for him eg who to call for IT, visitors to the office, ordering catering. Also possibly what the day to day roles he’ll be expected to carry out. When I did this for the person who took over from me it made me realise just how much I did and how much institutional knowledge I had.

  121. Clueless*

    I feel really awkward writing here but I think there are people here that could offer me helpful advice. I’ve only recently discovered Ask a Manager, and this is the first time I’ve posted anything.

    Basically, I’m asking for networking advice on LinkedIn.

    Longer version: I’m a woman in my late 20s, and I recently learned about a highly specialized type of job that I really want to do (something I didn’t know existed until early 2019). I’m unemployed, and I’ve never had to job hunt. Every job I’ve had, has been because someone I know (mostly family) has approached me to ask if I was interested. And I’ve never used any social media. I think the best way for me to get information about this specialized job is to ask people in the industry. I made a LinkedIn account, fixed it with some advice from others, and joined a Group dedicated to the job. And now I don’t know what to do!

    How do I ask total strangers about a job I have no experience in? Should I be sending out requests for connections? Posting my questions in the group? How do I deal with my anxiety about talking to strangers in a way that’s linked directly to my professional self?

    Does anyone here have any advice for me?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have never used LinkedIn, but when I was researching the field I thought I might move into, I tracked down about 12 people who seemed to have the job I wanted. And them I wrote all 12 of them the same basic email- I essentially explained that I was interested in the field and I asked three basic questions. I can’t recall what they were- something like, what their education was, what they wished they’d known about the field before they got their job, and I think something else. Honestly, only about four them got back to me, but one was kind enough to offer a phone call and that 45 minute conversation was so enlightening. It made me realize that I really didn’t want to be in the field. :) However, this method might work for you.

    2. Murfle*

      I recommend doing all those things, but I also recognize that approaching strangers directly for information is intimidating. Posting questions in the LinkedIn groups you mentioned is an excellent way to get that information without feeling like you’re imposing on one particular person.

      Here are a few other things I recommend:
      – Find out if there are local, regional, or national groups devoted to this profession, and see if you can join as a member. Many such groups will have private job boards, mailing lists or Facebook groups you can use to get further info. They may also run seminars or conferences, which provide another great way to meet people in your chosen industry.
      – Subscribe to podcasts about your chosen industry or topic of interest. They will be able to point you to other professional resources or links of interest that can help.

      2. WoodswomanWrites*

        Yes, I echo this advice for finding your professional society and events. I used LinkedIn extensively in my profession and have hundreds of connections. What the platform is great for is staying in touch with people *after* you have met them. With the exception of job recruiters, I ignore requests to connect with people that I don’t know.

        Once you have met contacts in your field, then you can connect on LinkedIn to stay in touch so they’ll remember who you are.

      3. Clueless*

        I would certainly be interested in those job boards! I’ll look into professional organizations, I genuinely don’t know if they exist. Thanks!

    3. BRR*

      I’m not clear if you’re goal is to learn more about the field or secure a job in the field. If it’s to learn more, search AAM for “informational interviews” and that should give you some scripts.

      1. Clueless*

        I actually set up a bunch of questions for an informational interview, thanks to AAM! I’m mostly balking about finding a way to talk to the people I don’t know lol

    4. GNG*

      YMMV with LinkedIn. Personally I don’t find it to be the most useful platform for networking anymore. I have over 1000 connections on there but many of them haven’t check it regularly for years now. So if you don’t get a whole lot of responses, maybe no need to assume you’re doing anything wrong.

      For some fields, Reddit can be a good source of information and support. For example, if your interest is to become a funeral director, you can go read the posts and ask questions on the askfuneraldirector subreddit. Or, there might be an AMA (ask me anything) about being a funeral director. There might just be a relevant subreddit for your field of interest.

      You mentioned you have anxiety about talking to strangers. For many people, the anonymity of Reddit helps ease that anxiety quite a bit. Reddit sometimes get a bad rap for questionable content on some things, but it can be a very useful, supportive tool as well.

      1. Clueless*

        I was kind of getting the feeling that a lot of people use LinkedIn less for finding new people. Several of the people I’ve been going to for resume and job search advice helped me set up what I think is a decent account, but they seem to think it’s still really common to be able to build a network from scratch mainly with LinkedIn instead of people you’ve met elsewhere.

        I did see one interesting AMA on Reddit, I should look for a specific subreddit. Part of my difficulty is the niche-ness of the job. It’s an offshoot of a particular field, but the name is so similar to the main field that it’s basically called “Niche Main Field”. Searching for that brings up all the results for “Main Field” that don’t talk about the niche at all. Often the easiest way to find information is to look up the names of the big shots in the niche.

        Fortunately for me, one of those big shots has dozens of hours of his talks at various events, just uploaded to YouTube. That’s where I got a lot of my information!

        1. GNG*

          Sounds like you found some good sources of information! I’m a mid-40s women and I’ve working in 2 niche fields that are offshoots of the mains. Honestly, don’t hesitate to contact people directly. We’re used to being approached for advice on how to get in. We don’t mind – the vast majority don’t. The way we see it: our field is super interesting, and we want to tell more people about it. We also know that niche fields tend to be small – a stranger approaching us today may be a colleague tomorrow, and can grow into a strong ally 3-5 years down the line.

          Also know that if any one you approached gives you a rude reply – they are the ones most people in our field dislike. Most likely, they aren’t people worth knowing. (And if you get in the field, you wouldn’t want to be known to be associated with them anyway.) If everyone you approached is rude and aloof – then maybe reconsider whether you want to get in this niche at all!

  122. Stuck in CS Hell*

    I swear this company is just trying to get rid of me. I literally just got off the 3 month long PIP for performance issues over survey ratings (basically something out of my control and based on how a contact is feeling) but then was put on a 3 month final written warning because I had accidentally responded to an email on a day off (completely forgot about the rules for that and I had only logged in because I forgot about my schedule and saw the email. Otherwise, I have literally never done work related stuff on my time off in the past) and the fact that they thought I sounded rather combative in that email to my bosses (that was not my intention, although re-reading it it does sound like I got rather frustrated because they gave me advice on how to handle an issue when that same advice that I did last year got me written up). Guess it’s a good thing I held my tongue when they said the final writeup meant I wouldn’t be eligible for promotions and our incentive program because I’ve never been able to get those anyways (our incentive program is like a Battle Royale to get a small bonus every 3 months instead of giving us actual raises and I always get passed over for internal job postings so no losses there).

    I’m also not having much luck finding a lot of jobs in the areas I want to do (either data entry, content specialist, or even documentation specialist) to apply for and my network is small though a few said they’d let me know if they hear of anything. This job just makes me hate my life so much right now, especially when I have nothing else going on and can’t escape to a better job.

    1. ferrina*

      Wow, this sounds awful! It sounds like they don’t particularly like you, and there really is no benefit to staying at a company like this.

      I’d say widen your job search. Switch your goal from “Find Job In My Field” to “Find Job With Decent Working Environment”. Take care of your sanity first, then you’ll be in a better position to take care of your career.
      Also: a company that wants you to grow and nurtures you will have impacts in any field. I’m in a field way outside what I thought I would do because I found a place where I could grow. Those skills carried me in to my next job, where I was able to grow and slowly shift my work in to things I was more interested in, which led to my next job….

      1. Stuck in CS Hell*

        Yeah, I’ve talked to other former agents and they said it’s very similar to what happened to them as well. Basically pushed out when you try to bring up valid issues, get told you’re a star employee when they put you on final notice, likely to keep stringing us along/keep as agents (as we’d all reached several years experience here and know all the ins and outs so easier to try and retain us then train several new employees).

        And thanks! I’m just worried my current skills don’t translate into non-support positions (I have gotten a few interviews over the summer for non-support related though, just not many) so hoping I can find that decent environment before the end of the year! As you’re right, my mental state has been sliding badly in this job overall.

  123. Murfle*

    I accepted an offer for a new job this week, but the offer is still contingent upon a background check. Online resources say that the background check normally takes 3-5 days, but the HR person I spoke to at the new job said it usually takes 1-2 weeks. Does anyone here have any experience with how long such checks take?

    I don’t anticipate anything weird popping up, but I don’t want to give notice at my current job until the background check clears and the new job offer is 100% firm.

    Complicating things is that I’m going on vacation next week as part of the Labour Day weekend. I really dislike the idea of giving notice either immediately before or after taking a 5-day weekend.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had one last fall and it took about 2 weeks. I was on a month-long sabbatical at the time, and ended up putting in my notice the week after I returned. That was a bit awkward, because clearly I had spent a month of my paid sabbatical interviewing (to be fair, I did start the process before my sabbatical). But it was fine! I got a little teasing about it, but it was lighthearted, not mean. Don’t worry about it, and enjoy your vacation!

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Depends on what they do.

      It sounds like this is just a public records search (criminal records, credit report, etc). So it’s really just a matter of somebody doing the legwork (which is probably 100% on the computer these days). If that person, or that 3rd-party company is busy, then it can take a couple weeks; otherwise it’s possible to do it in 24 hours.

      A federal background investigation for a security clearance can take months; even an interim clearance can take weeks. That involves investigators wandering around your neighborhood (and your former neighborhood, and your parents’ neighborhood), knocking on doors, and asking intrusive questions. When I was working a defense contractor job immediately after college, my mom would call me every year and say that the busybody neighbor down the street wanted to know if I was in trouble, because the FBI was asking questions about me. Sigh.

    3. Rhymetime*

      I went through this process recently. In my case, the background check was a routine I had been through twice in recent years, so I went ahead and gave notice before the background check cleared because I knew I would sail right through it. That of course is not practical for every type of job.

    4. PollyQ*

      1) Questions pop up here with some regularity about people whose background checks took longer than expected, or even didn’t clear them, despite them not actually having any issues. Then they’re left without a salary for, at minimum, a couple weeks. I would absolutely tell the new company that you’ll plan to give your 2-week notice once ALL contingencies are cleared.

      2) I wouldn’t worry one bit about the timing of giving notice before or after a vacation. Your company may want you to be actually working 2 full weeks from when you give notice, but that should only add 2 days to the notice period. If you give notice after the weekend, then it’s a total non-issue.

    5. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Mine took three months.

      After working there for a month, they asked me about an old boss they couldn’t reach. Too bad, as I had already started the job.

  124. PhyllisB*

    This is a good news update wrapped in a question. My daughter was working a job she loved but was woefully underpaid. She got recruited by another company with a 50% pay increase. Great news, right? Well, about four months later she gets recruited by another company offering her another 25% increase. A 75% increase in one year!!
    She called me in a tizzy wanting to know what to do. (She knows I read this column and could give her good advice.) So, channeling Alison, I told her to think long and hard before making her decision because she could only do this one time, leaving after only a few months. That if she did this, to plan on staying at her new position for at least a couple of years. So she made the decision to move companies.
    She gave notice (company was not happy, but….) had met with TPTB and turned in her equipment and they wished her well and so forth. THEN the Friday before she was to start her new position on Monday, Old Company calls and wants to know what it would take to get her to stay. She asked them why they waited this long to do this because she had given a month’s notice. They said they didn’t realize this was an option.
    She called me in another tizzy wanting my advice, and once again I told her to think long and hard because if she called this new company on Friday before starting on Monday, she would burn a major bridge and probably damage her professional reputation. (Lots of companies in this industry, but they all know what’s going on with each other.) AND if she accepted a counter-offer to plan on staying a good while, and probably not expect a raise for a while. And not to expect to do this again, because companies don’t play. Well, she decided to go on to New Company as planned.
    Now here is my question: why do companies do this? (Make last minute counter offers.) They had plenty of time to make a counter offer if they wanted to and had not done it. I mean, how would they have felt if they had hired someone and right before they started the new person said, “Sorry my company made me a good offer. I’m staying!!!” Alison, maybe you can weigh in on this? To me, this seems very unprofessional.

    1. PhyllisB*

      Oh, and in the midst of all this, she got recruited by ANOTHER company offering her 25% more than New Company. But she decided not to entertain that offer.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Why do companies do this?

      Because they are human beings who are trying to do lots of things, and there are miscommunications, and things fall through the cracks, and this is not a thing that they have a standard, automated process for.

      I doubt that even at a large, highly-automated company like Amazon there’s a clockwork algorithm that kicks in when an employee turns into their resignation letter to determine whether to make a counter-offer and for how much.

      1. LQ*

        This is such a great comment. Companies are made up of humans who are basically about average. It’s easy to ascribe a lot of intentionalities when it’s just bundles of people following or not processes and policies. Humans. It’s all the humans.

    3. PollyQ*

      They said they didn’t realize this was an option.

      Um, what? Why the heck not? Offering someone who’s leaving more money and/or other perks is bog standard behavior. The fact that they somehow didn’t “realize” this (or are perhaps using this as flimsy excuse) says nothing at all good about them.

      And you shouldn’t need any kind of automated algorithm to handle this situation. Boss and perhaps grand-boss should’ve known that a counter-offer was a standard maneuver in this situation. If what they really meant was, “We needed to make a case to the higher-ups, which took longer than we’d hoped” they should have said that.

    4. Filosofickle*

      I imagine “they didn’t realize” was more about the the disconnect between a manager and the company — that person/group she gave her notice to genuinely didn’t know or believe there was anything they could do. Maybe the manager doesn’t personally believe in doing this, or the company historically doesn’t counter offer, or they had reason to believe extra money/perks would not be available. But later as they (or their bosses/HR) start the process of replacing the employee, they realize how hard it is or how valuable that employee is, and someone finally says: Wait did you even try to keep this person?! Did we counter-offer?! Why not?! So they throw together an offer.

      Is it too late? Yes. Is it annoying? Sure. But I wouldn’t call it unprofessional. It’s better to take a risk and ask late than assume it’s too late and never even try. So they did what was in their best interest. And she did what was in hers by turning it down.

  125. Anon today*

    You don’t appreciate a negative workplace and negative coworkers… until you’re talking about Covid test results!

    I’m home with a breakthrough but very mild infection, but unfortunately exposed several coworkers before learning that I’d gotten the bug. All but one were vaccinated (there are reasons!), and all have tested negative. So my Friday good news is that I have negative coworkers!

    Note, I’m not making light of the pandemic. I’ve lost friends to this horrible disease. But I’m relieved and thankful that my colleagues are safe, and selfishly grateful that I didn’t cause an outbreak.

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      I’m relieved to hear your symptoms are mild and your co-workers are safe. I would feel the same way in your situation.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Being grateful that you didn’t inadvertently make anyone sick is the furthest thing from selfish.

  126. Is this a good reason to quit*

    I’m on a 6-month contract, and it’s my third month on the job. The company I’m at is well known and I had hoped to stay here for a while (previously, I had no problem getting my contract extended), but my experience so far has been frustrating.

    Normally I’d be able to learn the processes or the systems with minimal guidance by reading all the available procedures, but in this case the procedures are outdated on an egregious level they might as well not exist. Normally I’d be able to fill in the gaps by casually talking to people, but most people are still working from home, and the few people whose names were given to me as subject matter experts have been rude and condescending when I asked them newbie questions, and if they ignore my messages or phone calls (which one has done) I have no way of visiting them in person–all I can do is wait or contact someone else.

    As a serial contractor who normally would’ve been reasonably productive and made a name of myself after only a few months, my self-confidence is also taking a shot, and I partly worry that for the first time ever my contract won’t get renewed and I’ll be out of a job. Should I try to stick it out anyway? Or should I look for another job, potentially burning bridges with the people who interviewed me and my chance of working at this company again?

    1. Dasein9*

      I would assume the contract isn’t going to be renewed and proceed accordingly. Three months isn’t very long in job-searching time. That way, if it does get renewed, you might even be in a position to decide whether to stay or not. (Sounds like an unpleasant place to work, honestly.)

  127. Misttertee*

    I work from home permanently. Has anyone found effective soundproofing material that keeps outside noises from adjacent rooms out of your home office? There are many options online but they all seem to be for soundproofing for music. Thanks in advance for any help!

    1. Choggy*

      What kind of noise are you looking to dampen? I work in my basement, and when my husband is home and walking around on our vinyl flooring, it sounds like he’s stomping. A runner would probably help there, but I won’t be working from home much any longer.

      1. Misttertee*

        Voices outside the room. My wife homeschools our kids and sometimes it gets a little loud.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, the type of noise is important.

      Low frequency stuff (stomps, door slamming) is more omnidirectional, and you’d need to do a lot more work to cover everything. High frequency sounds (kids’ voices, pets, leafblowers) are directional, and you may only need to cover the one wall.

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          Super late to the party, my apologies.

          I had great success with some sound absorption in the room where the noise was being generated.

          I got a full size mattress topper (the cheaper one, on sale for $30 at Target at the time I think), covered it with a solid color sheet, and stapled it to the wall with a staple gun.

          It dampens the sound enough.

          If it hadn’t done the trick I was going to buy another full size one, and cut it down into strips and mount it to a “room divider” screen we’d made out of old closet doors, and put it about 18” inside the door of the room I’m using for an office, but that one wall did the trick.

          I have found over time the kid noise comes in “gaps” the worst, so consider something like a covered mattress cover you could roll up/down over a doorway to stop sound from infiltrating.

  128. GoingAnonToday*

    Hi All! I have a question. What would you do if you had a co-worker who used a really inappropriate (in my opinion) font in Skype? I had an internal customer today (my company has over 200k employees/contractors) come to me via skype in an emergency issue that I had to communicate with her for over 2 hours with very detailed information. The problem? Her skype font was RIDICULOUS!! She was using a bright pink Segoe script font in a size 8. I pinged her on the side and told her I was having difficulty reading her communications and she pretty much said “Thanks for the feedback” and didn’t care.

    I was pretty horrified that she wasn’t willing to change it temporarily at minimum (or tell me that there was a reason she does this – maybe she can only read that font?) This is the first time I have ever spoken with her. A 30 minute task took 2 hours because I had so much trouble reading the information. I’m not seriously visually impaired (I’m just like every other person in middle age who’s eyes have gone downhill).

    Am I wrong to think this is ridiculous? I get the privilege to show your personal style at work but this was just hard to deal with.

    1. Dasein9*

      You might have to specifically ask her to change the font she is using.

      If she won’t, I’d open a Word doc, copy and paste everything, and change the font myself. I would not be inclined to hurry.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I think it was worth asking her to change it once, but since she declined I don’t think it’s worth pushing this. (On that note: did you specifically ask her to change her font size and color? If you just said her communications were hard to read, she may not have understood what you meant).

      If you have to talk to her again, you can zoom in on your own screen and highlight her text – the pink-on-white text may show up better when it’s inverted into green-on-black by the highlight.

    3. Qwerty*

      Yes, it’s ridiculous. It also would have been completely valid to hold firm and say “I cannot read your messages therefore I cannot help you with this request”

      Check your Skype settings – there is probably an option to view incoming messages as plain text or convert the messages to whatever your selected style is. It is probably phrased very differently (might refer to it as styles or something like that or be an enabled option to use incoming fonts). Usually the option is near whereever you set your own default font.

    4. Eden*

      It’s mildly annoying but squinting for 2 hours was really not necessary. Just copy her text into another program.

    5. Skeeder Jones*

      Many large companies have style guides which usually include “accessibility”, making sure that the font type, color and size are all readable and support people with visual impairments. Maybe you can find one for your company and share it with her? But in the moment, what I would do is copy the text, paste into word and then change the font type/color/size to something that was easier for me to read.

  129. MacGillicuddy*

    So, this is about how medical personnel (and medical support staff) talk to patients. Specifically, when they ask the patient to confirm their address, birthdate, etc.
    I’ve noticed that the common response I get when I tell them my address, etc, is “Excellent!” in a bright cheerful voice. This always grates on me.

    I feel like a toddler who has just learned their address or birth date, and are being congratulated for getting it right. Why can’t the person just say “thank you” or even “ok”?

    I know they’re trying to be friendly but it comes across as patronizing and even ageist.

    Is this common in most medical practices?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m not an HCP, but I work in an adjacent field.

      From the HCP’s I know, the happy “Excellent!” is not to you. It’s that their crappy software did what it’s supposed to with minimal headache (medical admin software is it’s own category of tech headaches…and that’s before you add in the hospital’s IT systems….)

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, when I say “excellent” in these situations (though I am not in the medical field, I do often have to confirm name and address) what I mean is, “It is excellent that what you are telling me matches what I see on my screen.” It is not directed at the person telling me the information.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          I’m medicine adjacent, and this is what most of the medical people mean.

          Excellent = the info matches and we can move on to the next step of actually getting you medical care, instead of doing the paperwork that the paranoid malpractice attorneys & insurance people insist that we take care of first.

    2. Qwerty*

      Can you reframe it as the person is happy that the data they have is correct? I’ve always interpreted it as someone mentally checking things off a list and thinking “great, now onto the real task”

      1. anon24*

        This. When I ask someone to confirm I usually respond with “awesome, thanks!” or “cool, thanks!” It’s just me making sure my info is right so I don’t accidentally do a lot of things based off of very wrong info but at the same time it’s mostly an afterthought and not meant to be patronizing.

    3. RagingADHD*

      You are projecting a lot of internal stuff onto a very routine exchange. I guarantee it has nothing to do with your age, because they are operating on autopilot and say the same thing to everyone.

      I get this type of response in all kinds of places, including when I order pizza.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Agreed. 90% of the time, these folks are just saying words because they’ve had this exchange 50+ times that day and are on autopilot. “Excellent!” is one of many short-hand phrases they use for, “Thank you for completing that check! My information matches your information so we can proceed.”

    4. Skeeder Jones*

      At our company (also healthcare) we do it to verify identity due to HIPAA regulations. They might be commenting “excellent” because the information matches. It’s kind of overdone but maybe they are feeling awkward about having to ask it in the first place (shrugs)…

    5. Hrodvitnir*

      I definitely know what you mean, but realistically every has to learn their public-facing face, and some people just make it a bit *too* warm. I’m not going to hold it against them.

      My oncologist is actually a tad too strong with the gentle tones (in a hilariously stereotypical contrast to my surgeon), but she also communicates clearly and scientifically with me (since I study cancer), so that more than balances out a somewhat softer approach than is my ideal.

  130. Not the dog*

    Feeling low today. Just found out a coworker who I respect and is a great resource is moving on. Company is a good place to work, but there are a lot of people moving on for lots of reasons lately and it’s hard to keep saying goodbye.

  131. Eden*

    I’ve been thinking of job searching later in the year, waiting until after a certain personal situation is resolved, but recently one of my linkedin messages was from a company I was actually interested in and had been talking with before the pandemic, so I messaged back and have a call scheduled with a recruiter! I already let them know I couldn’t interview for a few months due to aforementioned personal situation, but I’ve gone from “I’ll think about jobs in 2 months” to “thinking about it NOW”. Pretty scary but also exciting! Anyone else start job searching before they meant to?

    1. ferrina*

      haha, congrats! I got a job offer just a few weeks after I’d decided to stop looking due to an ongoing family situation. It was the weirdest thing.
      It was super stressful (there were good reasons I’d decided to stop looking!) but I’m powering through. And with Covid, everyone is so distracted that no one has noticed that my mind isn’t fully here.

  132. Pumpernickel Princess*

    I have a performance review next week with the opportunity to give my own feedback about the position, of which I am finishing a season. I loved everything about this short-term, seasonal position except for my coworker with whom I led daily programming. We got along OK enough to function, but our priorities about some key things were pretty out of line from the start (social justice, conflict management, the quality of the programs we wanted to deliver, etc). I know that I really excelled in the position despite my frustrations with my coworker, and I’m struggling with how to frame our relationship in my self-assessment if I even mention it at all. I definitely don’t want to seem like I have an axe to grind, and I have plenty of other challenges and growing edges I could talk about. Any advice on how to go into this performance review?

    1. Pumpernickel Princess*

      I’m realizing that this might not have been clear in my original post, so clarification time! The reason I feel this is relevant to my own performance is that I ended up taking on a ton of extra responsibilities that should have been shared between us, and our boss thinks we got along great and could pair us together should we return to the position in the future.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Unless your coworker’s thoughts on social justice are directly pertinent to the work, don’t mention them. For example, if you work with a vulnerable population and your coworker’s attitude could impact them negatively, bring it up. If you were just having a side conversation and disagree philosophically, leave it out.

        It’s perfectly appropriate to mention that you would prefer not to be paired with this person again, because you spent X time doing things, or did more than your share of Y because your coworker would not make the effort. Keep it objective, straightforward, and fact based. Don’t make it about personality.

        I’m not sure what you mean about conflict management, but talk about the problems and impacts: if they were disruptive and argued in front of clients, if they refused to discuss things and left the work to you, if they were rude or verbally abusive, if they ignored policies because they were conflict-avoidant and wouldn’t tell clients no, etc.

        These are all things your manager needs to know, and there is no way for them to know unless you give useful feedback.

  133. Anonymous Ignorant White Lady*

    How can I, as a well-intentioned but ignorant white woman, best serve a non-white student intern I’m supervising in an organization staffed predominantly by well-intentioned but ignorant white people?

    My organization provides a specialized professional service requiring a specialized education. We are fully-remote, and have been remote-first since long before the pandemic. Our predominant employee demographic is white, middle-aged, and more liberal (in both senses of the word) than the general population.

    Our organization is a leader in terms of pay and benefits, as well as developmental opportunities for new employees. We’re one of the few employers in this field that routinely hire students and new grads and train them up, rather than expecting all new employees to arrive ready to hit the ground running.

    The rank and file agree that it’s a problem that our organization is predominantly white and we should be actively trying to be at least as diverse as the general population. Not all of management is yet onside with this idea. (Those who aren’t onside are thinking “We’re already diverse! I can name two non-white employees!”, as opposed to “No, diversity is bad!”)

    In this context, I’m supervising a non-white intern this semester. This is a developmental paid internship that, if the intern’s work is up to par, is a direct path to hiring in our organization and a highly-valued reference for hiring in other organizations. So I might be in a rare situation where my own individual actions can make a bit of progress towards mitigating the systemic problems that my organization has not yet solved.

    I am confident I can train up an intern to be a strong candidate for hiring (I’ve done it several times before), but I’m less than confident I can make our well-intentioned but ignorant white organization feel like a good place to work for my intern.

    I’m not able to perceive any specific issues that would make it feel unsafe or otherwise undesirable for her, but I’m also well aware that I’m not good at perceiving these things.

    I would love to hear – particularly from non-white people – about any thoughts about:

    – What can I do / what should I avoid to make my intern feel safe working here, and working with me personally?
    – What sorts of things should I look out for in other people’s interactions with my intern and/or the organization’s policies and practices?
    – Any reading recommendations to make me less ignorant and better able to spot (and, hopefully, mitigate) issues for a non-white student working in an organization full of well-intentioned but ignorant white people?

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      Ijeoma Oluo’s “So You Want to Talk About Race” is an excellent primer for well-meaning white people. She addresses a lot of specific topics like “why can’t I touch your hair” but with an overall framework of explaining how race influences our lives and how to do better.

  134. ADA decision pending question*

    Hi, would somebody know:
    1) When office requires to go back to in-person, and I am waiting on my ADA accommodation to be processed, do I need to be in person? (Job was performed online successfully, partially even before pandemic).

    2) If there was an issue with how the application was handled (there was a decision announced without any discussion of how accommodation could look like), I presume I still need to go back in-person without any help from employer while it’s being sorted [likely legally]?

    I presume the answer is to go back-in person either way, but I appreciate any wisdom from the commentariat. Thanks!

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      For 1, yes, that is how I proceeded with a similar situation in my office. Until any remote work days were settled officially as part of the accommodations process the person had to be in the office the same days as the rest of the staff. The answer to 2 is probably similar but it is hard to tell from here.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Right now, I would go back in-person while this is decided if you can. I think it shows good faith which will help your goal to get the rest of the things you want in the long term. I hope you get whatever accommodations you need.

    3. PollyQ*

      It’s really up to your employer/manager. If I knew I had an employee in your position, I sure wouldn’t make them come in, but they may say otherwise. It’s definitely worth asking about, and maybe even pushing back a little if they turn down your request to WFH while the ADA accomodation is still being processed.

  135. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I’m feeling super directionless lately and have no idea where/how I want to go in my career path. I clawed my way out of retail to land various reception/admin positions because they felt like the only way out of retail, which was draining my soul. But now I’m feeling that same soul-drain from being in admin/support/assistant jobs for too long. I think I’m ready to be the one doing the *actual* work, not the one assisting them. Anyone want to share their stories of making it out of the admin space? How did you transition? What kinds of job titles did you look for that would hire former admin assistants/receptionists?

    1. CaroleMiller*

      I took a similar retail to clerical/admin route. My niche was data analysis and report writing but the admin assistant title spoke louder than any data projects I actually completed (vs assisted with). I went to grad school for a practical/applied area and started completely over through clinical internships, though I certainly used the skills and experience to do well in my new career, plus be super self-sufficient and efficient. I’ve never listed the clerical work on my resume since, mentioned it to any employer, or mentioned it to any coworker. I’m not embarrassed by it but people have weird perceptions about admins. It’s a tough role to shake. Good luck!

  136. Claire*

    I’m interviewing for a new job next week and want to ask

    a) why my predecessor left and
    b) why they changed the job title for the role

    Are these reasonable questions? Any tips on wording?

    1. SoloKid*

      People aren’t going to be honest about specifics like if someone left because management or pay sucks.

      A way to ask more subtly is asking why the role is open – it gives the interviewer a chance to say something benign like growth in the company or someone retired recently.

    2. RagingADHD*

      These are certainly reasonable questions. As SoloKid mentioned, you may or may not get a forthright answer, but the way they answer could reveal a good bit about the culture and operations, and the personality or management style of the hiring manager.

      I would probably say something like, ” Can you tell me how the position came open?” and “The title of the role seems to have changed substantially. What’s the reasoning behind that?”

  137. Sandia*

    Hi everyone, long time reader but first time commenter… Any advice about how to deal with a job where it feels like you can’t take any time off?

    If I take any time off, the majority of the work will just pile up until I get back. Plus there’s not much of a culture of unplugging – my manager hasn’t taken time off herself for more than 1-2 days at a time (infrequently) since I started working with her more than a year ago. When we’re in lockdown/working from home anyway, it feels somewhat pointless to take time off to, what – sit in the same room trying to read a book instead of emails?

    Looking forward to any ideas of how to navigate this, I’m worried I’m starting to burn out.

  138. Environmental Compliance*

    How many months of trying to schedule a certification exam before you demand a refund?

    I was accepted to take the IPEP QEP exam in……. October…… 2019. COVID delays, etc., etc., I’ve had to be rather pushy at the place to get any sort of response or plan, keep being told “I’ll be scheduled soon”, something something “oh you didn’t get the email?” No, or I wouldn’t be asking.

    I’m so frustrated at this point I don’t even want the certification and just want my money back. I start my new degree Monday and I don’t want to try to balance a big cert exam plus coursework (on top of full time job).

    1. WellRed*

      If you no longer even want the certification, it doesn’t really matter how long it’s been. Get your refund and move forward with degree.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I guess part of me is saying “it’s one day, may as well get it done and get the fancy piece of paper”, if that makes sense?

    2. Flower necklace*

      It’s time to demand a refund. They’ve had more than enough time to figure it out. I had a certification test scheduled at the very beginning of the pandemic (March 2019). It was delayed by 5 months, but eventually I was able to take it. And that was the beginning of the pandemic, when nobody knew anything and everything was shut down.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I tracked down the Board of Directors and sent a couple emails/messages. One of them actually got back to me so perhaps that’s the kick in the pants needed to get this done?

        I’ve been trying to be patient with COVID. But then to get an email saying “oh yeah we put everything to digital because COVID didn’t you get the invite?” and telling them no, no I did not, and then…. radio silence.

  139. Jennifer Juniper*

    I did something spectacularly dumb today. This is related to an old toxic job I quit six years ago.

    I help the local animal shelter hand out food, toys, treats, and cat litter to people in need of help to keep their pets fed. Today I was the runner (fetched food and litter from the van, often having to climb in and out).

    It was 96 degrees out and humid. I double masked, since many of our clients are unvaccinated. I started to overheat and couldn’t catch my breath. But did I stop? No! I kept going, pushing myself to help the clients no matter what.

    At Old Job, I had to stay on the phone no matter what, even when I was in the middle of a panic attack. Breaks were discouraged except at the designated times. If a call took up my break, I just had to suck it up and miss my break. People even routinely missed lunch, but were expected to suck it up.

    So, I didn’t know I was allowed to stop. The other volunteers pleaded with me to take a break. I kept going because I was flashing back to Old Job. It ended up with me and my stuff being bundled into someone’s car and being driven home. The nice guy who drove me home explained to me that since I was a volunteer and not staff, I can stop whenever I like.

    That actually solved it. I’m autistic, so I actually had to have someone tell me outright.

    It was a good thing I almost got a heatstroke, as I was planning on going out to get groceries later. We got a flash flood warning, so it would not have been safe for me to go out.

    1. pancakes*

      Glad to hear you are safe! Try not to dwell on feeling silly about pushing ahead with work. It’s great that the other volunteers looked after your well-being, and now that you know, you won’t make the mistake again.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’m really sorry you went through those experiences, both the rough day yesterday and Old Job (which you should re-name Toxic Job, IMO). Those previous standards were inhumane, and quite possibly illegal, depending on state laws.

      And might I be allowed to suggest a new rule for all your work/volunteer situations? Safety First. The physical well-being of you, your colleagues, and your clients (especially the furry ones), should always be top priority.

  140. What do I do now?*

    I finally found a great job, a great company, and a great boss. However, the Big Teapot boss is not so great. My boss reports to him. I thought that the Big Teapot boss was someone who is experienced, but little did I know that he is very insecure and very reactive. We have a stellar team and with him being sensitive, Big Teapot Boss makes very poor hiring decisions. My job is to partner with him and other hiring managers to build the best team. However, he does not know what good talent looks like when he has not built a high-performing team before unlike my boss and I. He is easily influenced and changes his mind periodically which creates chaos in the company and organizations. Big Teapot Boss does not feel that he should care about the employment laws and that all is unnecessary. I have shared with him that he can receive penalties, fines and even receive a visit from the Department of Labor. He also makes comments that are in violation of the EEOC by making comments about not hiring women of child-bearing age, and hiring Asians are discriminatory against white people, and that everyone who does not come from the top 1% of schools and elite backgrounds are basically lower than dirt. I have told my boss who also has tried to reason with Big Teapot Boss, but also receives the same response.

    I really think that the company is great, but he is going to run this company into the ground and destroy the morale and culture of the company.

    I am coming here for advice and support. I really love my job. It took me almost 1.5 year to find this job after working as a consultant.

    1) Should I go above him and tell the Board of the BigTeapot company?
    2) Should I report him to “the agency?”
    3) Any Suggestions?

    1. pancakes*

      A great company would not elevate someone who is openly bigoted and derisive of industry regulations to a position of power over others, and would fire someone at any level who behaves that way. I do think you should report this guy to the EEOC, which you can do anonymously if you like. I did a search for how to make anonymous report to eeoc and found this:

      “If you wish to remain anonymous, we will accept a charge that is filed on behalf of someone else who has been the victim of discrimination. The charge can be filed by a person or an organization.”

      – eeoc dot gov

      1. What do I do now?*

        Thank you so much! You are right! A great company won’t allow this to happen. I will look into the EEOC.

  141. Mannheim Steamroller*

    I recently stumbled across an interesting factoid:

    In 47 states, it is still legal to actively discriminate against the unemployed — i.e. employers are allowed to include “must currently have a job” as a requirement for applicants. (The three exceptions are New York, New Jersey, Oregon.)

    Has anyone actually encountered this? How much does it hinder the search for qualified applicants?

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’ve never seen or heard of this, ever, in my whole life, and I am pretty old. A lot of states might not have bothered outlawing it because it happens too rarely to be a problem that needs addressing.

      It just sounds like a dumb thing to do.

  142. pancakes*

    There aren’t many circumstances in which an applicant can be sure about the state of mind of someone they didn’t hear back from. I do think it’s probably quite common for people who screen resumes to exclude applicants who’ve been unemployed for a long time, but I haven’t ever encountered an explicit “you must currently have a job” requirement in job listings, screening phone calls with agencies or recruiters, interviews, etc.

    I also think someone who has been unemployed for a long while could mitigate negative perceptions around that with a strong cover letter, relevant experience, and/or other qualities / qualifications.

  143. Flowery Times*

    Hi! Does anyone know of a site like Ask A Manager for graduate students? I’m midway through my dissertation, and if I could get the same kind of support and advice for it as I do for jobs here, I’d be finished by now!

    1. GNG*

      In case you’re still reading: I’m not familiar with other primarily web-based blogs for grad students. But if you’re on Twitter, I found @AcademicChatter and @OpenAcademics to be helpful. There are many other graduate school focused twitter accounts as well.

  144. Liz*

    I have a couple of questions over ambiguous application info. I’m looking at a job advert that says “you must have appropriate UK professional registration” on the advert but does not specify what. There is also nothing in the person spec that mentions membership at all. I am eligible for 2 professional memberships in my field (one as a graduate and one as a student) but I am very short on cash right now and I don’t want to drop money on these on the off chance of them not being a rigid requirement. Would I look like a total numpty if I phone up and ask for clarification over this?

    Secondly, they have asked for “a qualification in x” and to be “working towards accreditation”. Qualifications in my field usually involve 3 tiers of training, with an accredited diploma at the end, at which point you are deemed “qualified”. I’m almost at the end of this final step. The role is a trainee one, but I’m unsure if they require the diploma qualification, or if lower tiers will suffice.

    Would asking these questions of the hiring manager disqualify me from the job? I can’t tell if I’m qualified or not and I’m worried I’ll come across as an idiot if I try to find out.

    1. PollyQ*

      Not a numpty, IMO. The ad sounds very ambiguous indeed. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn there was some cutting-and-pasting from previous ads, or perhaps an accidental deletion. Is there any way to ask via email, though? I think that would be preferable to a phone call.

    2. star*

      Where I work (UK Civil Service, mix of clinical and non-clinical people in my org) the application form asks for professional registrations – but the roles I hire for don’t require them, so I note them where they have been completed, but don’t filter on them when shortlisting.

      Asking both of these questions seems ok – just be calm and to the point. “The job advert mentions appropriate UK professional registration. Can you explain what that would be for this post?”

      Your alternative is to apply anyway. But it won’t help you decide whether to pay for the professional memberships.

  145. hmmm*

    I know I’m late to the game with the business open thread questions, but hopefully someone will answer me.

    I have a business idea that I’ve been tossing around in my head for literally years. I’m trying to do some research to see if it is realistic. It is related to a hobby I’ve had most of my life. I’ve become an “expert” over the years finding unique items (as opposed to those sold in chain stores). These unique items are what I would like to focus my potential company in. Here’s the thing (yes I’ve done my research and what I want to do is realistic so the success isn’t what I am focusing on) there are some companies (online and physical locations) that I use personally that I admire greatly. I feel guilty that I might become competition to them. Does that make sense? Believe it or not their product and services actually inspired me and got me thinking of one day opening my own business. Is this normal?

    1. Product Person*

      Like many experts say, competition is good for business. It drives productivity and brings out the best from products offered. Smart businesses are not afraid of healthy competition.

      You will probably find your own niche, and might even contribute to expanding the market for the companies you like.

      You seem to have put enough thought into this idea, and been thinking about it for years. Don’t sabotage yourself with these excuses to ignore your dream, or you’ll regret it later. Good luck!

  146. Lore*

    So, I applied for a position that I’m uniquely qualified for at a major world company. I have a referral from inside the team and was happy to see an email from the referral department that I’d be contacted in 5-10 days. It’s been well over a month. My referral doesn’t know which recruiter is managing and frankly I’m not sure if I should even reach out.

    Any ideas?

  147. Con Tractor*

    I work at a company through a staffing agency and one of my coworkers who is also a contractor is my boss’s kid. They’ve never been given preferential treatment and have actually been scrutinized far more by higher ups than the rest of us due to their relationship with our boss. They actually do good work, imo.

    The thing is that some of the other contractors bully my coworker because of their relationship to management. I’m sure my boss finds it difficult to address the situation because he’s their father, but the treatment hasn’t gone unnoticed by some of us. Obviously rules about hiring family members are in place for a reason, but I feel like it’s still unacceptable when my coworker has done nothing wrong.

    What is usually done in this situation? I know it doesn’t involve me and most would say to mind my own business, but I do worry about my coworker. They work hard and love their job.

    1. Hmmm*

      I think this is a something HR and coworkers father / management need to deal with. It seems like there is a clear boundary. Those bullies are being jerks, but they seem to be doing so out in the open that I’m sure the higher ups aren’t clueless. As for you, just be a good colleague to your coworker. Be a good friend and treat him professionally. He’s done nothing wrong and is playing very well by company standards. Ps I just want to say I’m glad your aware of and sticking up for your coworker

  148. Kristina*

    I’ve applied for a position that I’m very much qualified for. There were three rounds of interviews, all of which felt very comfortable. It was more a conversation than an interrogation. I really feel like I’m a good fit, both technically and culturally. I asked questions that made them all pause and say “wow, that’s a GREAT question, no one else has asked that”. I have now been asked for references (two former coworkers whose response to my reference request was HELL YEAH) and submitted info for a background check. This job would give me better pay, better benefits, and better advancement opportunities than the job that laid me off due to COVID, and help pay for me to pursue a Master’s degree. I estimate that I’ll hear final word on if I’m getting an offer sometime in mid-September.

    I’m not asking a question, I just really want the gig, and I’ve been too scared to vocalize it to anyone. Send me good vibes, everyone. I’m so nervous.

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