update: my new coworker keeps staring at my breasts

by Alison Green on December 6, 2022

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose new coworker kept staring at her breasts? Here’s the update.

Thank you again for publishing my letter and for your advice. It was especially great to see just how exhausted you and the commentariat were with having to even consider any of that crap, again, for the thousandth time. Feeling that collective exasperated sigh behind my back made it much easier to act.

I did at first try to ask the staring coworker rather pointedly, was there something wrong with my badge? He gave me a surprised, uncomprehending look in response and said no, no, nothing was wrong. That encounter seemed to help briefly, but in a couple of days the effect disappeared.

I next tried pointedly crossing arms across my chest and, separately, asking what it was he kept looking at. Both attempts elicited the same exact reaction as the badge try.

A day or two after my last attempt to save him the face, I finally had enough. I said, “Name, you can’t keep staring at me like this. This area (and I showed the area with my hands) is completely off limits when you talk to women.” I was tired and not feeling well that day, so it came out in a pretty harsh tone. The guy was very taken aback, he just sat there staring at me (at my face this time hah), frozen and speechless. After a minute or so of him not saying anything at all, I left the room.

He approached me later that day, in a couple hours after my outburst, very cautiously. He said he hoped I understood he never meant to stare “like that,” that it was just how his eyes were, whether he looked at men or women. He said it was considered impolite in his country of origin to look people in the eyes for long stretches, which is why he made it a habit to rest his eyes elsewhere.

Now some of that I felt was true, as I said in my original post, I had a feeling all the way through that he didn’t REALLY mean to stare at the chest. However, the part about looking at men the same way was not true at all, with them he would look at their ears, the wall behind them, that sort of things, instead of their chests (yes I had studied this aspect carefully before acting, sigh). Still, I told him that I believed him and even soothed his ego a bit by saying how much I valued his contribution to the lab. But stressed that he still had to change his eye habits, however innocently meant, around women.

The guy was very, very careful where he looked the rest of the time I worked with him, which was about 3-4 more months, so the lesson did stick. Unfortunately our relationship never recovered – he started avoiding talking with me in general, and when he did have to talk to me, his attitude reminded me of a snake charmer approaching a particularly dangerous reptile. If I stayed at that lab, this would be a very difficult thing to work through. Fortunately, for reasons completely unrelated to the staring guy, I am now happily at a great new job across the globe.

Thank you again Alison, and thank you all who commented, it is so great to have this amazing place to talk through even the hairiest of issues.

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{ 192 comments }

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  1. duinath*

    what a tool. you were very patient for a very long time, and his excuse was …lackluster. congratulations on the new job!

    1. Cat Tree*

      Yes. If he can learn not to look at someone’s eyes he can also learn not to look at her breasts.

      1. allathian*

        Generally true, but childhood programming is very hard to overcome. I’m pretty sure that I’d get in trouble in some cultures where looking people in the eye is considered impolite, especially coming from a woman. I suspect that I’d have to wear mirrored sunglasses all the time so that people couldn’t see where I’m looking.

        1. AbruptPenguin*

          Except that LW says he didn’t stare at men’s chests. So it’s not “childhood programming.” Also, we all have to do the work of unlearning habits that negatively impact other people, and when it’s a sensitive issue happening in the workplace, you’d think you would WANT to learn to do better, not look for excuses.

      2. Gem*

        Totally agree. I’m autistic and looking at people’s eyes is so difficult for me so I end up looking at teeth, noses and eyebrows a lot. Never at chests.

        1. MamaBear*

          My son also has autism. He is getting better at making eye contact but for the most part, if he has to look you in the eye, he cannot focus on listening to you. When he was little, I taught him to look just over the person’s shoulder so he appeared to be looking at them but could then focus on the conversation.

  2. Kermit's Bookkeepers*

    Like the letter writer, I find it incredibly hard to believe that this man was completely innocently unaware that he was staring at women’s chests. I’m willing to go so far as to believe he fully justified it in his mind as a mechanism to prevent looking people in the eyes, and even to believe that he personally did not consciously on the surface level of his brain mean anything sexual about it. But the fact that he only stares at femme-presenting bodies this way is a huge, huge problem and his intentions of course mean very little in light of the effects of his actions. I’m glad he was scared of you — this is what’s referred to as “returning the discomfort to sender.”

    1. Kermit's Bookkeepers*

      Or, more likely, he did mean something sexual about it but it truly never occurred to him that he could be caught out about it if he had a plausible reason for doing it.

    2. CM*

      The OP handled this very well by saying clearly that regardless of his intent, his actions were not acceptable and needed to change.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. OP did a great job. I like that she gave him a chance to self-correct, then when he didn’t clue in, directly told him. And love that she told him his actions need to change. His excuse wasn’t a justification- “I didn’t want you to feel uncomfortable, so I did something that would make you feel very uncomfortable.” Yeah, and I didn’t want you to step in the mud, so I shoved you into the grass.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I felt similarly. Like he’d used his previous culture to decide he could therefore look wherever he wanted; this made him more able to ignore OP’s extremely broad hints. As if there is a culture where the demure alternative to direct eye contact is to lock eyes in someone’s boobs for exactly one second every time! Or possibly he’d just never expected to be called out.

    4. Observer*

      But the fact that he only stares at femme-presenting bodies this way is a huge, huge problem

      It’s a problem and it proves that this is an excuse not a reason. He KNOWS how to not look people in the face without looking at their chests. But when it’s a woman, he chooses to not use that knowledge.

    2. Happy meal with extra happy*

      I fully appreciate your comment in the manner it was intended, but I would like to push back. It’s not good that OP now has to deal with this dude’s emotional fall out from his inappropriate behavior. It’s not fair, and it’s not right.

      1. tessa*

        Huh?

        “Fortunately, for reasons completely unrelated to the staring guy, I am now happily at a great new job across the globe.”

        What is OP having to handle from Staring Guy from across the globe?

        1. Le Sigh*

          The entire paragraph before that sentence explains it. “Unfortunately our relationship never recovered – he started avoiding talking with me in general, and when he did have to talk to me, his attitude reminded me of a snake charmer approaching a particularly dangerous reptile. If I stayed at that lab, this would be a very difficult thing to work through.”

          OP left for other reasons, but for 3-4 months she did have to deal with this problem and it would have continued had she not left.

        2. Le Sigh*

          He was wrong but he took it out his — embarrassment? anger? shame? — on OP. Whatever he was feeling, it resulted in him making their working relationship more difficult, so it was again on OP to deal with the impact of his actions.

          1. Aggretsuko*

            Yeah, I don’t think they could just “act normal” after that went down anyway. I’m not surprised he wanted to avoid her after that, and frankly, avoiding her is probably better than his preferred alternative.

            1. AbruptPenguin*

              He couldn’t act normal, or he didn’t want to? Part of doing your job is getting along with colleagues, as Alison says frequently. Also, why are “avoidance” or “his preferred alternative” (which would be what? violence?) the only two options? It was the starer’s responsibility to take the feedback, adjust accordingly, and maintain his end of a cordial, professional relationship. He completely failed to do the last one, and that’s not on OP at all.

      3. duinath*

        agreed. this kind can discourage people from speaking up. people acting uncomfortable around you just because you want to be treated with respect essentially just makes things hard in a different way, not necessarily better.

    4. Zelda*

      The LW has improved the world for all women who have to work with this guy in the future. We can’t assume that he will treat them all as equal human beings and colleagues, but he is now on notice that at least *this* behavior is not a guaranteed pass anymore. If that leads to his watching his step a bit more ever after, well, good.

      1. lyonite*

        Yeah, I’m not so optimistic. He might have stopped with the staring, but he also imposed professional consequences on her for having stood up for herself, which tells me that he chose the “women are unreasonable and I should not interact with them” solution to refusing to believe he did anything wrong. I’m glad the OP is far away and he didn’t manage to drive her out, but I think this is far from the last time he is going to cause problems for his colleagues.

        1. Where’s the Orchestra?*

          Also not optimistic, and betting that OP leaving may have shortly proceeded a backsliding in where his eyes rested. People like this in my experience never seem to permanently learn.

        2. Observer*

          He might have stopped with the staring, but he also imposed professional consequences on her for having stood up for herself, which tells me that he chose the “women are unreasonable and I should not interact with them” solution to refusing to believe he did anything wrong.

          That’s what worries me as well.

          I’m glad the OP is far away and he didn’t manage to drive her out, but I think this is far from the last time he is going to cause problems for his colleagues.

          Total agreement here.

    5. Le Sigh*

      On the one hand, completely agree and I’m glad he was scared. On the other, this is what is so frustrating about these situations — when called out, there’s this attitude of, “oh be careful, if you just *talk* to a woman or glance in her direction, you’ll get slapped for sexual harassment lawsuit” and do what the coworker did — avoid you. Granted, I get being embarrassed and feeling awkward, but OP shouldn’t also be responsible for the consequences of his reaction (ie, a difficult work relationship). And so often this is the calculation we have to make when deciding what to do (or not do) about this crap.

      1. BlondeSpiders*

        I (F) feel this so deeply in my bones. In my 20s, I worked in a lot of kitchen environments with extremely close quarters. Behind the line, there’s enough room for exactly 2 people, if they’re in a “spooning” position. So when other (male) cooks would need to get by me, they could not avoid touching some part of my body, and vice versa. But some would take their sweet time getting past me, and provide either an extra butt or crotch wiggle when directly in front of/behind me. Or put their hands on my hips to steady themselves, right.

        It was always a difficult decision to call it out. Because invariably, the fallout ended up being worse than the original harassment. Exaggerated movements around me, hands above their heads, the “I’M NOT TOUCHING YOU” loud enough for all to hear.

        I’m so glad to be out of this environment.

        1. Pants*

          Ugh. I dream that it’s better now. I haven’t worked in a kitchen in over 20 years. I never worked in a kitchen where this didn’t happen. It was par for the course.

      2. Hannah L*

        Yeah if it was just a a day or two of him being weird while the embarrassment faded that’d be understandable. But him continuing to do it sucks.

    6. Gerry Keay*

      Women should not have to settle between being feared in place of being respected. His refusal to engage with her professionally is not a win and only highlights his underlying misogyny.

      2. JessicaTate*

        I agree that we SHOULD not. But quite often, the world doesn’t give us a choice. “Shoulds” don’t get me very far in the real world.

        I should be respected. I want to be respected. I prefer to be respected. When I call him out, I hope to end up respected. But I can’t force someone to respect me.

        So, my approach is: If a guy like this won’t respect me, then he will fear me. That is an outcome that I can work with. It at least gives me power and agency in the relationship than any other option.

      3. OP*

        Yes, this. This was not a win for me/women, overall. The guy may be more cautious in the future and not cause stare-consternation in many more women, but he will still carry the misogyny forward, just in a slightly different shape – now it’s avoidance and over-caution, and those are so, so bad for us.

        1. OP*

          That said, I’d do it again in a heartbeat. Needs doing, no question… But the whole bloody battle is still so much on.

  4. NotEvilHRLady*

    “It was especially great to see just how exhausted you and the commentariat were with having to even consider any of that crap, again, for the thousands time. Feeling that collective exasperated sigh behind my back made it much easier to act.”

    This. How is it STILL an issue women have to fight back against on the cusp of 2023?! We don’t initiate or perpetuate this behavior (most of the time), yet have to constantly defend ourselves.

    We have a LONG way to go in establishing better equality and equity in the workplace.

    1. Frank*

      Right?! Why are breasts still things to be ogled at? The majority of us in the workforce are not Kardashians or other people who willingly go under the knife to sculpt a specific look to our bodies. We just want to earn our livings and enjoy our lives.

      As for the partner who put the offender’s insecure feelings before his wife’s. Flock you. Her feelings are valid and you need to understand that.

    2. OP*

      OP here. Left the partner back across the globe. Not because of his views on this situation per se. But can’t say the views did not contribute into my leaving.

      5. Dona Florinda*

        I hope you’re doing well without them! (And judging by the partner’s reaction, I believe you are)

  6. Dust Bunny*

    However, the part about looking at men the same way was not true at all, with them he would look at their ears, the wall behind them, that sort of things, instead of their chests (yes I had studied this aspect carefully before acting, sigh).

    Confess I would have pointed this out to him.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I had the same thought. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say, “Coworker, when you have conversations with men, I’ve never seen your eyes rest on their chest. You always manage to be looking NEAR their face, even if you aren’t looking them in the eye. You need to do the same with women!”

      1. Llellayena*

        I wonder if there’s a height thing in play as well (not that I’m defending him though!). When I look UP at someone or straight ahead but not straight into their eyes/face, my gaze goes to the side or a little higher. When I’m looking DOWN at someone (which is rare for me!), my eyes are more likely to drop since my chin is pointing down too. If OP was shorter than this guy but the guys he was talking to were taller or equal height, I could see his argument making sense. It doesn’t mean he still shouldn’t change it though, but he could honestly not have noticed the difference in himself in how he looked at men and women.

        1. OP*

          Nah I am very tall, as tall as the guy.. He also managed to look where he shouldn’t have even while sitting in front of me standing.
          As to Dust Bunny’s idea, yah I thought about pointing it out to him, but I felt he would just deny – he was pretty heavily in a denial mode already..

        2. Dinwar*

          I had a similar experience. When I sit my head is about chest-high for most people. I also tend to think visually, so when I think hard I don’t even see what’s in front of me–I’m seeing a map, or a page in a book, or an outcrop, or whatever. If people happen to be where I’m looking I don’t tend to notice, because I literally can’t see them. Men generally don’t care; you want to look at my shirt have fun. Women were understandably less happy with the situation.

          My solution was to have some thing I was looking at. In my office, for example, I have a map. If I need to look off into space I look there. Folks seem to understand that if I’m looking at the map I’m not intentionally looking at them if they cross my line of sight. Or, I’ll look out a window–again, people seem to understand that looking out a window is something people do, even if they happen to walk in front of me. I also learned to keep a small part of my brain engaged in processing visual information (a useful skill in other areas of my job), so I’d notice if I was inadvertently rude.

          It took very little effort to learn that trick; mostly it was just a brief conversation with a woman who I’d inadvertently offended and me spending two minutes thinking “How do I prevent this in the future?”

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly! Why should the “don’t stare directly into someone’s eyes” measure be different for each gender?

      4. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        lol right and it’s not like many of us don’t have sparkly jewelry literally hanging from our ears

    5. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      I would have too! I’ve recently started being much more direct than before (there was some block there for me that I made a recent breakthrough on and it’s been wildly freeing).

      My ruler that I measure myself against is “after I get off this call/send this email/leave this room/tell my spouse or bff about the conversation, how am I going to feel?”

      If I’m going to feel uneasy or wish I’d said something, or if my husband is going to ask ‘but what about x?’ and I’ll be agreeing with him (or feeling slightly ashamed for not having stuck up for myself), I’ll take that as a clear indicator that I do need to face my fear and say something.

    6. Pants*

      I would have too. I’m happy OP included the info in their letter. I think it’s applicable to the conversation, especially given the cultural habit explanation. I understand that different cultures have different norms but he knew he was caught and was trying to cover his own ass. I’m pretty sure it’s not a rule anywhere to stare at mens’ ears and womens’ chests. If it is, please let me know where so that I do not go there.

      People often get uncomfortable with sustained eye contact and I get that. However, even the slight distance between the chest and shoulders would probably make a visual difference. Even then, if he were comfortable enough to focus on areas around mens’ faces, he could have easily done it with women’s faces too.

      I focus on eyebrows. They’re pretty fascinating after a while!

  9. Essentially Cheesy*

    I wonder if the guy ever really comprehended what the OP was getting at? This reminds me of a former boss that was native to a different culture and I never felt like he really understood cultural norms where we live, even though he’s lived here with his family since at least the 70s. If I were to bring things like this up, it would result in hurt feelings rather than the actual point being communicated.

    No excuses for the behavior but just saying .. some people never connect some things.

    1. UKDancer*

      I don’t think it matters whether he understood the reason as long as he stopped the conduct. When I lived abroad I accepted that there were some rules / customs that didn’t entirely make sense to me, but as I was there I needed to follow them to fit in.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      WTF.

      Did you even read the letter? The harasser only stares at women’s breasts, everyone else he looks “look at their ears, the wall behind them, that sort of things, instead of their chests”.

      I have had it with people trying to excuse away sexual harassment as something women should just suck it up and deal with! Because oh no the person harassing feelings might get hurt?? WTF. Come on. Do better.

    3. Observer*

      Oh, he understood! That’s why he treated her like some dangerous creature. Keep in mind that he WAS treating women differently than men – with men he was looking at other spots.

      1. Pants*

        My Inner Goblin would have been sooooo tempted to stick googly eyes on my boobs. “Um, my eyes are up here.”

        1. That One Person*

          How do you tell someone that the fact their chest is staring at your chest is making you feel uncomfortable…lol kidding, would be hard not to stare for a moment with a barely suppressed laugh/giggle. Definitely a conversation starter move!

    4. LilPinkSock*

      Per LW’s own words, she flat-out told him “Name, you can’t keep staring at me like this. This area (and I showed the area with my hands) is completely off limits when you talk to women.”

      How do you suggest she communicate the actual point any better? The coworker was choosing to not understand.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Exactly. It seems like a bunch of commenters think she was too direct (oh no, creep was embarrassed!), and a bunch of commenters think she wasn’t direct enough (oh no, creep who lived in the US for 10 years and was told not to stare at breasts didn’t understand!).

        Which is being a woman in the workplace in a nutshell. Can we focus on the feelings of the LW who was repeatedly made extremely uncomfortable, rather than speculating why the guy might possibly have been justified?

      2. That One Person*

        I don’t think Cheesy was suggesting a “better” method or action so much as wondering if real understanding happened. The intended lesson was “This action is not okay with me or to do to anyone else,” and yet it strikes me that the offender took away the lesson “OP is scary and needs to be handled carefully or they’ll reprimand me again for whatever reason, avoid when possible.” It may not have mattered how it was communicated, the guy may have always taken an alternate lesson from the situation. I do wonder if he got even a hint of the actual point though and just acted very badly on it against the person who pointed it out, or if he just willfully ignored that in favor of an emotional response.

        1. Appletini*

          I think it’s most likely that he willfully ignored what LW very clearly said in favor of an emotional response, as you described it. If he didn’t learn it was by his doing.

    5. Coconutty*

      Why is that so many people who comment are always so quick to jump to “different cultural norms” to explain gross behavior? It’s bizarre. And frankly, it’s offensive.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Seriously. “Let’s just assume other cultures are incapable of polite behavior and do sexual/sexist things as a norm.”

        It’s couching bigotry/racism in pretend acceptance and it’s offensive af.

      2. Gerry Keay*

        I’m gunna go with xenophobia, racism, and a desperate desire to excuse the poor behavior of others in the hopes that you too will be allowed plausible deniability for behaving in similar ways.

      3. JustaTech*

        My dad had a peer (very senior at their firm) who used “different cultural norms” to try to get himself out of complaints of sexism/harassment.
        This was accepted maybe once or twice before the firm was like “dude, no”.
        Sadly their resolution was to have my dad coach the guy in how not to be a condescending jerk to all the women at the firm, which was 1) a questionable choice re confidentiality, 2) not fair to my dad (there are professionals for this), 3) not terribly effective, as Mr “In My Culture” had a slightly more senior position than my dad.

    6. How About No*

      Hm. If someone has been living in the United States for fifty years and is still doing culturally-inappropriate things…it’s because he wants to do those inappropriate things. Let’s not chalk consistent bad behavior up to “those foreigners who don’t know any better”. I have plenty of colleagues “native to a different culture” who are recent arrivals, and none of them pull unprofessional, degrading crap like OP’s coworker.

    7. Dinwar*

      A member of the British Empire in England had the best response to that line of argument. Someone was going to burn a widow alive on her husband’s funeral pyre, and said that the British couldn’t interfere because they had to respect the native cultures. The British person said, to paraphrase, “Well, sir, it’s my culture to shoot cowardly widow-burners.”

      Respect for cultures works both ways. Even if we grant that some cultures allow men to ogle the chests of women, it must necessarily be allowed that in our culture such a thing is incredibly rude and can be considered sexual harassment. I am not one who believes all cultural practices are equal; some cultural practices are simply vile. And a suite of cultural practices that systematically harms half the species fits under the “vile” heading. And frankly, if you’re too stupid to learn, after ten years and being told multiple times that something is rude, not to stare at women’s chests, I don’t want you in my lab. I’ve worked in labs. They’re dangerous. People need to pay attention and respect one another, because if you don’t, people die. I’m not saying “People of that culture are stupid”; I’m saying stupid people can be found anywhere. And I’ve never yet met someone who treated women badly who didn’t do badly in other aspects of the job.

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        Thing is, in their culture, women are often dressed in tent-like things that mean you barely realise there’s a human under them, let alone a human with breasts. And/or they would never encounter a woman in a lab.

      2. MassChick*

        Wow. Is that the best example you could come up with? A British coloniser as an example of cultural superiority? The same culture that believed their racist ways and looting of other cultures was perfectly acceptable and caused millions of deaths in the name of the British Empire? Even a stopped clock is right now and then.

    8. Giant Kitty*

      In what culture is it considered polite to stare at women’s breasts while speaking to them?

    9. Eyes Kiwami*

      Or the former boss never HAD to adjust because he could just become a broken stair and make everyone work around his inappropriate behavior, while he feigned ignorance and cultural incompetence.

      What a coincidence that every time you bring something like this up, these people get defensive and claim “cultural difference”. And yet they manage to function in other ways just fine (language, local bureaucracy, cultural norms that benefit them)…

  10. I should really pick a name*

    I would consider this a victory.
    His response is 100% on him. I think you handled it well.

  11. K*

    His excuse is valid (although this does not mean that it is ok to stare at womens’ breasts). I am a straight woman and come from the country where it is not acceptable to look people in the eyes for long stretches. I sometimes catch myself staring at coworkers’ chests during a conversation, especially if it is an important work-related conversation (in a foreign language) and all my attention is focused on the discussion. In this case I just don’t have the bandwidth to control where I look. It is completely unconscious and does not have any sexual connotations. I tend to look at something attention-catching: if the person I am talking to wears an unusual piece of jewelry I’ll look at it, if there is a picture on the wall I’ll look at the wall behind the person, and so on. And yes, one of my coworkers has large breasts and I really have to put effort into not looking there, after she asked me a similar question along the lines of “is there something wrong with my sweater?”. TBF I also often stare at the chest of my (male, old, ugly) granboss because he wears fancy shirts with eye-catching embroidered monograms on chest pockets.
    That being said, I think OP handled the situation well, and her coworker should work on his staring habit.

    1. Roland*

      > His excuse is valid (although this does not mean that it is ok to stare at womens’ breasts)

      What does this mean? Sounds contradictory to me. His behavior was not ok and his excuse was literally BS as OP explained.

      > I sometimes catch myself staring at coworkers’ chests during a conversation, especially if it is an important work-related conversation (in a foreign language) and all my attention is focused on the discussion. In this case I just don’t have the bandwidth to control where I look. It is completely unconscious and does not have any sexual connotations

      Well that’s a problem and you need to find a way not to stop doing that. Speaking a foreign language is indeed incredibly draining but that’s not an excuse to let the behavior slide when it’s apparently a recurring issue for you.

      1. Cobol*

        This is overly harsh. What K is saying is that it is very common on other cultures, but that she has to work at not doing it. I wrote in the original thread that I also have trouble maintaining eye contact, and had to train myself to look over people’s heads (so avert your eyes up, not down)

        1. Roland*

          I don’t see how it’s harsh to point out the excuse was BS – OP literally said it wasn’t true – or that someone who does this frequently needs to find ways to stop doing it. Sounds like you were doing this and so took steps to stop which is all anyone is asking of this coworker and people like him.

            1. Giant Kitty*

              How is Roland being harsh? By bluntly stating K needs to knock off an incredibly rude behavior that she’s already been called out for by a coworker?

              I don’t buy the “but cultural” excuse either, because I don’t know of any culture where it is considered polite to stare at a person’s breasts, no matter how rude eye contact is also considered.

              I have autism & ADHD which means that I am quite literally genetically hard wired & programmed to not make eye contact, and to stare mindlessly at whatever is most eye catching about a person, and I still don’t do this, nor would I use my disabilities as an excuse.

              1. Cobol*

                By framing culture as an excuse. K says she is working on it. She gives examples of when she would (where it would be 100% acceptable in a different culture). Changing indoctrinated habits is not flipping a switch. K does not call what is happening to OP as okay. K gave an example where she still does it to a man to explain how it’s not even what it seems. K talks about how she is trying to change. Accusing k of being contradictory is overly harsh.

      2. K*

        “ What does this mean? Sounds contradictory to me. His behavior was not ok and his excuse was literally BS as OP explained.”
        I mean that his excuse (i.e. the reason why he stares at OP’s breasts) might be factually correct and he was honest about it, he was not making it up to justify his behavior. Which still means that he should not look at OP’s breasts and should work on changing his habits.
        “ Well that’s a problem and you need to find a way not to stop doing that.”
        Do you think I don’t already know it? It takes time, especially for non-neurotypical people.

        1. Michelle Smith*

          I respectfully disagree, since OP said they watched this person interact with men for a while and he was staring elsewhere, not at their chests. While it may be a valid excuse for you, it wasn’t for the person OP is talking about based on the information they provided to us in the post.

    2. duinath*

      pretty sure most people who don’t make eye contact (culturally or otherwise) are perfectly polite people. sounds like maybe you should work on your staring habit as well. just because you’re a straight lady, that doesn’t make it okay. you’ve been called out on it once already in the workplace, and it sounds like you’re not really taking it as seriously as you should.

      additionally, i really don’t care how attractive you find your boss, and i find it odd that you included that.

      1. K*

        I included it because I was trying to make a point that the staring might not have anything sexual in it. Ofc it is possible that OP’s coworker is a creep, but judging by his embarrassment when he was was called out, it is more likely that staring is just bad habit, like fidgeting with your pen or biting your nails. Still unacceptable to do that of course.

        1. duinath*

          it literally doesn’t matter if it has anything sexual in it, it’s still unacceptable invasive behaviour. if a coworker smacks me on the ass it doesn’t make make it okay if they meant it in a friendly way.

          and no, biting your nails or fidgeting with your pen is not on the same level, regardless of his intent.

          i don’t know where you’re getting the idea he was embarrassed, as the lw only describes him being shocked at being called out.

          1. K*

            By “the same” I meant that these habits have same origin and similar neurological mechanisms. I was not talking about impact in others, it is already obvious that his behavior makes OP uncomfortable and should stop.

          2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            yeah I think at this point we can leave K alone. She’s admitted her fault and said she’s working on it, so there’s no need to pile on.

      2. K*

        Also I have no idea why you all think that I am not working on changing my habits. Explaining does not mean justifying and making excuses.

        1. duinath*

          the only information we have about you is what you’ve written here. saying it’s valid, saying you don’t have the bandwidth to control it… i’m glad you’re working on it, and i don’t mean to make you feel attacked. but as i said in an earlier comment, it doesn’t sound like you’re taking it as seriously as you should. if i got the wrong impression, i’m glad to be wrong.

          1. New Jack Karyn*

            “i’m glad you’re working on it, and i don’t mean to make you feel attacked”

            Then stop. She said she’s working on it. She said that multiple times. Dogpiles don’t change behavior.

            1. duinath*

              hey buddy, this was my last reply to k. it was fully several hours ago. also, i was minding my own business when she first replied to me.

        2. TrixM*

          Wow, this has been a ridiculous minor dogpile.

          For what it’s worth, while I’m white, I grew up in an area with a prominent minority culture that does the same thing and I adopted that behavior by osmosis. Apparently it can be an ADHD thing as well.

          In any case, I totally get your point – your eye tends to rest on something that’s prominent in some way, like the brooch or necklace or, unfortunately, breasts.

          I literally had to tear my gaze away from the mole on someone’s arm the other day. I certainly was not staring at it like “ooo look at that weird mole!” But the person could have certainly felt that I was staring at it in a creepy way, and of course I adjusted my gaze once I became aware of myself!

          Fortunately, I tend not to let my gaze fall on breasts – I’m queer, and fairly butch-presenting, and I learned very early on that some women assume you’re perving at them if you merely glance in their direction. There’s a type that assumes we think of all straight women as “prey”, no matter how much we might find them personally unattractive and their bigotry even more off-putting. Anyway, not wanting to provoke an over the top reaction is a very good deterrent from allowing yourself to glance beneath shoulder level.

          So yes, it can be trained, although like anything you do that’s unconscious, it can be tricky!

    3. Fluffy Fish*

      It would be valid except for the part where he looks at male colleagues everywhere but the chest area.

      1. K*

        As I have already explained, there is nothing eye-catching on men’s chests. Unless they wear an unusual shirt/tie/etc.

        1. Nancy*

          Why not just choose a specific thing to always look at instead of ‘something eye catching” and choose something other than “person’s chest?”

          1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            because there’s rarely something you can systematically look at, people being individuals and all that.

      2. Simone*

        OP I feel you! I grew up in Thailand and have such a weird mix of behavior. 1. I can’t do eye contact and have to be mindful I am not looking at anyone’s body as I was conditioned to keep my head a little down as a woman (often chest/belly) when speaking with people. I had to learn to change that especially at work.

        2. To those commenting if you haven’t had to learn a new culture you very likely have no idea how difficult it is to change those tiny little things we do all day every day. What if it was incredibly rude to look someone in the eyes or the mouth? Or use your left hand to eat? Or never show the bottom of your feet, or turn your back ETC. You may quickly learn it’s rude, and it takes a lot longer to actually consciously change that behavior all the time. I think she’s acknowledging.

        This is pretty clearly a cultural difference, and because the person is in the US he needs to work on changing the behavior.

        1. Pants*

          I learned about the bottom-of-the-feet custom in the third grade. Since then, I’ve tried to be very mindful to never do it with anyone. When I work with people from other areas of the world, I take the initiative to learn the very basic norms–left hands, turning my back, taking the first bite, etc. I actually find all of it pretty fascinating. I do it when travelling abroad as well, though I admit that I always do mess up whether it’s a one-cheek air kiss or each-cheek, depending where I am. The first phrase I learn in any new language is “I’m sorry.” Highly recommend that one.

          This man lives in America now; he could and should have done his homework — hard agree.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            The man had lived in America for *ten years*! That’s plenty long enough to break a habit *that he only engages in with people with breasts*.

          2. Ariaflame*

            In a fictional series I read one culture has “I’m sorry” as an admission of guilt. Not sure if this is the case in any real ones but best to find out the most appropriate local phrasing for expressing regret.

            1. I need a new name...*

              I don’t know if there’s a particular culture where this is learned, but I certainly know many individuals and corporations that hold to the idea that ‘I’m sorry’ is an admission of guilt.

        2. hohumdrum*

          I think some people who have never left their own cultures maybe don’t realize how hard it is to change your own unthinking habits that you’re not even aware of. I do so many things every day I’m not conscious of, and the few times in my life I’ve had to change one of those things was HARD.

          Now, re: the LW I take them at their word that this guy didn’t do this to men and the cultural habits part is just a small part of it, so my comment isn’t about the LW & her coworker. He needs to stop.

          I’m just surprised by how many people in this thread find changing unthinking habits generally easy, because that has never been my experience. Still trying to unlearn certain things I do even 20+ years in.

          1. LunaLena*

            Same; I lived in a country where it’s impolite to look people in the eye for some of my formative years, and 20+ years of living in the US later I still generally gaze at ears, shoulders, hair, or behind people unless I consciously make an effort to meet their eyes.

            Heck, even the simplest, dumbest things took me a long time to “get over.” I had to cut my hair short according to school regulations for years, and when I moved back to the US it took me over a year before I felt comfortable letting it grow out.

    4. MigraineMonth*

      Habits are hard to break, but it sounds like this is a habit that is making at least one of your coworkers very uncomfortable (since they felt they had to call your attention to it).

    5. Gust of wind*

      That’s interesting. May I ask l, in that cultural context, is staring at women’s chests not impolite, or is holding eye contact so much more impolite that chest staring is minor to negligent in comparison? Or is both impolite but quite some people are having difficulties doing neither and eye staring is just generally worse?

      1. K*

        Staring at womens’ chest is impolite too. But staring at the eyes is, depending on context, either sign of aggression or sign of romantic interest, so even less appropriate at work. Generally, it is polite to gaze at hair, forehead, shoulders, or at the wall behind person’s head and make brief eye contact once in a while during a conversation. So not being able to control where you look and staring at person’s chest is still a bad habit that may be related to ADHD, social anxiety or something like that. Similar to biting nails or fidgeting. Still impolite but hard to control, especially when you are stressed.

          1. allathian*

            I can’t think of any culture where it’s considered polite to stare at another person, i.e. hold eye contact for more than 10 to 15 seconds at a time. Cultures just vary on how long the allowed eye contact can be, in some anything more than a passing glance is interpreted as aggression or romantic interest. In some even a passing glance is too much. Cultures also vary in how acceptable it is to show aggression by staring at someone, especially for people who are perceived as female.

    6. Mockingjay*

      Shoulders. You look at a shoulder or just beyond it. Keeps your focus UP while avoiding a stare down.

  12. Simone*

    OK, I hope this doesn’t come across the wrong way and please please take all of it based on my personal experience. And… Not all Thai men, I know many lovely Thai men nothing like this!

    I lived in Thailand (not sure where this guys was from but sounds a lot like south east Asia culturally) for many years, I’m a white American woman. Yes, it is 100% true that you try not to look at people in the eye when you speak with them. looking at someone directly in the eyes when they’re talking to you is almost as all intimate as holding hands. So I think that’s legit.

    The second note is that, while not true for every person, (please don’t come at me, this is my experience were of course exceptions!!), men would absolutely stare at a woman’s chest deliberately , rather than the ears/behind head etc. Women order food after 5 yr old boys when eating out as male kids have more authority. There was a lot of mistreatment of women, a lot of little things like this, considering women are second class citizens provided for the male gaze is the tip of the iceberg. In my experience, and as explained to me by locals, It’s just seen as the right of being a man, there’s no subtlety expected (in US the glance is ok but not full stare over and over). I can give you some truly horrific nausea inducing examples that I witnessed and we’re done to me, but when I first read the letter, I 100% would buy that this guy was avoiding eye contact, and the nicest place to look happens to be her breasts and that he just felt it’s his right (maybe subconsciously).

    The other factor of this is culturally you absolutely do not confront someone in a way that would make him uncomfortable, it’s very important to allow people to “save face.” Badge comment was great and avoids confrontation and that would be my recommendation IF they guy was new to US or you were in a temporary situation.

    As the guy has been in the US for so long, and especially as he is working the US, I think it’s great that LW confronted him directly explained what the problem is, and what he should do differently.

    I’m also not at all surprised that he totally shut down and their relationship didn’t recover. Though kinda surprised after 10 hrs he hadn’t adapted to US culture more. A woman embarrassing you is about as humiliated as you can get (again in my personal experience).

    1. Gerry Keay*

      “A woman embarrassing you is about as humiliated as you can get (again in my personal experience).” -> Do you not see how this is literally the crux of the problem??? Like, that is misogyny crystalized.

      1. Simone*

        I agree – I think its a massive disgusting problem. I am not in any way excusing the dude, I guess I was trying to show there is some cultural basis for how he acted and responded, doesn’t make it OK.

        1. Simone*

          Like that was my whole point? That in Thailand, in my experience, misogyny in action was very real, hands on thing, EVERY DAY.

          1. Gerry Keay*

            To me, your comment read like you were blaming the LW for embarrassing her colleague and that she should have done more work to allow him to save face.

            1. Llama Identity Thief*

              I didn’t get that read at all. I only got the read that Simone’s using her lived experience to say “the dude’s actions clearly aren’t okay, but the level of cultural upbringing that gets locked in is legit, meaning that people shouldn’t treat this as someone who knows better just finding any possible excuse for his behavior.”

              2. Observer*

                I got that read, too. But I don’t agree. For one thing, even in Thailand it’s possible to find people who behave differently. For someone who has supposedly been working effectively in the US for 10 years, I just don’t buy it. It’s an excuse, not a reason.

              3. OP*

                I agree completely Llama, and thank you so much Simone – that’s exactly what our situation was, I think.
                The guy was not Thai, but he was from another country where women are so forever-deeply second class that no one ever stops to think about how to look at them.. “Women order food after 5 yr old boys when eating out as male kids have more authority,” yep just like that.
                So he didn’t really feel he needed to think about where he was staring with women. Which somehow lasted til I came along… Now he does know better, but possibly at the price to women (them avoiding women is really, really bad for women even if that might be a relief on the staring front).
                Cheers, sigh.

                1. Despachito*

                  If I remember well, OP said in her first letter he was perfectly respectful in all other aspects?

                2. Snell*

                  @Despachito You are responding to actual OP, who is elaborating on her experience in more detail than was given in the first letter

            2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

              No, you were leaping to conclusions and ignoring half of what Simone said. Please don’t pile on anyone who mentions any reasons for the guy’s behaviour as if they were excusing it.

      2. Onyx*

        FWIW, I didn’t read that comment as justifying the guy. I read it as saying “Yes, there are cultures where this exact behavior of staring at women’s (but not men’s) breasts in lieu of culturally impolite eye contact is common… and that cultural practice is just as unpleasant and steeped in misogyny as the letter writer thought.” I.e., the offending colleague may indeed be following the behavior he learned in his culture-of-origin even down to the breast-ogling (which some commenters seem to be questioning the plausibility of), but that origin isn’t at all innocent–he’s importing a custom that’s misogynistic even in its original setting and trying to play it off as an innocent cultural difference.

        And I read the end as context for why he’d react so strongly to the LW calling him out, and indicating that that, too, was likely to be driven partly by fundamental misogyny (being corrected *by a woman*) rather than an innocent cultural difference in how people corect each other.

    2. ladyhouseoflove*

      I have to say, I found this comment wrong in two ways–holding women responsible for how men behave AND infantilizing nonwhite men.

      1. Simone*

        I don’t think women should be responsible for how men behave and and think men are capable of not being this way obviously. In my experience, living in SE Asia, this WAS how men and women interacted/what was expected, if you gave direct critical comments like LW did you could be hurt by that man, like literally assaulted. I don’t live there anymore because of the frequent horrible treatment of women and requirement to walk on eggshells around MOST not all, men.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          I’m sorry that was your experience Simone. I’m even sorrier you can’t talk about it without being criticized for condoning it.

      2. Simone*

        There were also a lot of white men who took advantage of this, who reveled in the misogyny that was more allowable than it is in most of the Western countries.

      3. Hen in A Windstorm*

        What a weird response – it’s not possible for someone’s lived experience to be wrong. Simone isn’t saying it should be this way, but that this is how she saw men in Thailand behave.

        If you’ve never traveled overseas and been subjected to this kind of behavior, good for you. All men are capable of controlling themselves, but culturally, most men are told they don’t have to, or worse yet, that they are entitled to not control themselves.

    3. UKDancer*

      If he’s been living in the US for a long period of time he should know better. I mean you give people a certain amount of grace if they’re brand new but once they move in and settle, they need to adapt to the customs around them and if they continually refuse to understand and adapt to them then they should get a more direct correction.

      1. Simone*

        I totally agree! I think the direct correction was great, this situation happened in the US – that’s the cultural norms you operate under, ESPECIALLY as he’s been in the US so long. I felt so bad for LW that it had to get to that. She so clearly reminded me of trying to navigate situations like this respectfully given cultural considerations and still having respect for myself/standards.

    4. MigraineMonth*

      I’m confused how any of this would change the advice to the OP.

      Men who come from blatantly misogynistic cultures don’t have a get-out-of-sexual-harassment-free card when they are visiting other countries (or *living there for 10 years*). She gave him multiple chances to stop staring at her breasts, which he decided to ignore.

      Are you suggesting that she should have just allowed the violation indefinitely? Or that she should have reported this to a (hopefully male) HR person to talk to him? Because “as humiliated as you can get” seems like a small consequence to pay for repeatedly sexually harassing a colleague.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        Where is the suggestion that this changes the advice for the OP? Where is it suggested that this background is a get out of free card? I just read it as info FWIW.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I posted this before a lot of Simone’s responses; it’s pretty clear that I misinterpreted what she was saying. I was asking “how this changes the advice for the OP” since that’s part of the commenting guidelines; I was wondering how a deep understanding of the man’s (possible) background would matter to the OP.

          I think the reason I interpreted this comment as criticism of what OP did is because it focuses all its attention on explaining what the man may have been thinking/feeling, rather than how OP felt to be continually sexually harassed by the man. Particularly the line “A woman embarrassing you is about as humiliated as you can get” seemed to be saying that OP had humiliated the man (which is generally seen as unprofessional behavior) rather than that the man had humiliated himself by staring at a woman’s breasts in the workplace after living in the US for 10 years.

          I’m glad that’s not what Simone meant, and I should probably avoid living in Thailand.

      3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        Simone is not condoning only explaining. Please go back and read her first post more carefully, right to the end.

      4. inko*

        I don’t think she’s suggesting anything – I read the comment as yes, he was definitely being misogynistic, this level of misogyny is deeply rooted in some cultures *and that is very wrong*.

        1. inko*

          (I can now see this was addressed and acknowledged in the um several days I apparently had this tab open.)

    5. hbc*

      You remind me of a quote I’m going to butcher too much to put in actual quotation marks: Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them.

    6. LilPinkSock*

      Please excuse me if I don’t give two craps about a guy being “humiliated” for being told not to stare at his colleague’s breasts.

    7. Observer*

      men would absolutely stare at a woman’s chest deliberately , rather than the ears/behind head etc. Women order food after 5 yr old boys when eating out as male kids have more authority. There was a lot of mistreatment of women, a lot of little things like this, considering women are second class citizens provided for the male gaze is the tip of the iceberg

      In other words the guy knew EXACTLY what he was doing and decided that if anyone calls him out on it he’s going to claim “cultural insensitivity”. Rude and gross.

      The other factor of this is culturally you absolutely do not confront someone in a way that would make him uncomfortable, it’s very important to allow people to “save face.”

      Which the OP actually DID. So, even by his “standards” and culture, what happened afterwards was on him. Given that he’s been in the US over 10 years and is supposed to be competent, and even intelligent, his reaction is even more gross. The cultural stuff is just a (very poor) excuse.

    8. Giant Kitty*

      The other factor of this is culturally you absolutely do not confront someone in a way that would make him uncomfortable, it’s very important to allow people to “save face.” Badge comment was great and avoids confrontation and that would be my recommendation IF they guy was new to US or you were in a temporary situation.

      I think this is the part of your comment that is giving people pause.

      Personally, when someone is doing something that is incredibly rude in any culture, there does not need to be an attempt to let the offending person “save face”. They could have done that by just not being offensive in the first place. Staring at a woman’s breasts is rude full stop, I don’t care if you come from a culture where misogyny is so pervasive that many people do it anyway.

      2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        Thing is in Thailand it is not rude to stare at a woman’s breasts. Women are decorative and men do what they like with women. I don’t like it any more than you, I’m just trying to explain. Explaining is not condoning. The fact is that if OP were working in a lab in Thailand she could have got into trouble for all that she did beyond mentioning the badge.
        You might not care about the culture, but it’ll come and hit you in the face if you carry on like that in such a country.

  14. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    Ugh, I hate that he chose to be a weirdo about this and you had to deal with it, OP. Though maybe him keeping his distance was a victory, in its own way. Even if you think that the original issue was overblown (I do not!), the co-worker’s reaction to a polite, but clear request is not OK.

      2. Giant Kitty*

        As the Angry Samoans sang:

        Lights out
        Poke, poke, poke your eyes out
        Lights out
        Let ’em drop on the floor, roll all about

  16. Knitting+Cat+Lady*

    as an autistic who hates eye contact…

    he knows what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose.

    best way to fake/avoid eye contact is looking at the forehead, eyebrows, over the shoulder…

    1. duinath*

      when i was a teen i would default to looking at people’s mouths. which i now, as an adult, think was probably not my best choice. *facepalm*

    2. SuprisinglyADHD*

      Thank you! I know I’m late to this comment section but I have been getting increasingly uncomfortable as I scroll down and see how many people are ok with “oh it’s his culture!” Many non-neurotypical folk don’t pick up on ANY cultural norms, but when someone specifically tells them that something they’re doing is rude, or worse, actively making people uncomfortable, most of them change that behavior. Many folks with ADHD or Autism or any number of other types of neurodivergence (myself included) find eye contact impossible. Most of the time, the alternative option is staring at the forehead, nose, ear, or wall behind. Staring at someone’s torso is very obvious and something that makes enough people uncomfortable that it’s nearly impossible for someone to not have it mentioned at least once in a DECADE(!) and find a way to change that habit.

      1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

        I have adhd, and I also have trouble with eye contact. I never connected those two things before, and it’s very interesting to hear they may be related rather than a random coincidence. Very interesting indeed!

  18. MassChick*

    Cheering OP on! While also grimacing at her having to deal with a man’s emotional upheaval..

  19. Ah Yes*

    I had a manager who used to stare at my chest anytime he would talk to me too. I never had the guts to call him out on it, but I hated any interaction with him. I never felt valued. I just felt like a piece of meat.

  20. SuprisinglyADHD*

    I’ve gotta say, I’m shocked at the number of comments defending the staring behavior. There’s a difference between an explanation and an excuse, and that difference is that an excuse means “and this is why it’s ok” while an explanation means “this is where (I/they) messed up”. I have never been able to manage to make eye contact with anyone, it feels uncomfortable and wrong and maintaining eye contact requires so much attention that I can’t pay attention to what they’re saying.
    But since I joined the workforce (more than 2 decades ago) people have pointed it out to me, and not always as advice (“hey, pay attention when I’m talking” “Why won’t you look at me? are you feeling guilty about [thing that happened]? are you sad about something?”) It was made very clear to me that I needed to change my behavior, and I did. I went to google and looked up “how to look people in the eye” and instead got piles of articles about how to fake it. Forehead, cheek, ear, nose, chin, wall behind them, those are places to set your eyes to feel comfortable to people who expect eye contact.
    “Oh but it’s his culture” is a ridiculous excuse, whether it’s cultural or mental or neurological, it’s part of the expectation of any workplace, and NOT changing it is NOT an option. A decade is enough time to be aware that the people around you at work do not approve of your staring, and even if you can’t change the habit, there is no reason to be SURPRISED by being told to stop staring at boobs.

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