open thread – September 6, 2024

by Alison Green on September 6, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Window light*

    Advice needed here. I have given my manager as a referee for a job I might get an offer for, but – too late – have heard that he might retaliate if he finds out I was looking for other work. He has apparently done this to a couple co-workers who had good relationships with him until they told him they had a job offer elsewhere and asked for a reference. At that point I’ve heard he accused them of lying (because they didn’t tell him they were looking for other work), and then he wrote partially negative references for them and spoke badly about them in the industry (a small industry.) A negative reference cost one person their new job offer.

    I don’t know what to do. I wonder if I should contact the hiring manager I’m applying with and ask to change my referee. Is there any wording that wouldn’t make me look bad?

    I feel like Alison has addressed this sort of situation somewhere, but I don’t know where.

    1. No one is irreplacable*

      I don’t know what Alison would say but you might try calling the hiring manager and say you’ve heard there might be an issue with checking with that reference while you are still currently working there. When I was more involved with hiring we would consider that sort of thing when checking references.

    2. Stuart Foote*

      I would never, ever use my current manager as a reference, even if he was generally a good guy. I’d just tell the hiring manager what you outlined in this comment and give another reference. I’d be shocked if the new hiring manager didn’t understand.

      2. English Rose*

        This is an interesting example of differences between sectors and probably countries. I work in a medium size non-profit in the UK, and it would be seen as extremely suspicious here if a person wouldn’t provide their current or last line manager as referee. Certainly makes it more difficult for candidates in these situations.

        1. DivergentStitches*

          Yes it’s pretty common in the US for candidates to not want their supervisor contacted until there’s an offer on the table. Guess we have a lot of crappy managers who might retaliate.

        2. Rats*

          But in Britain they can’t just fire you for any reason, right? (Correct me if I’m wrong, please!) In the US, every state but one is an “at will” state — meaning you can get fired for almost any reason or no reason at all (exceptions for reasons based on race, religion and a few other things). So you can literally be fired if they don’t like the color of your eyes, if they want to hire their brother, if you own a cat and they like dogs, etc. This is why in the U.S. people almost never allow their current employer to be contacted as a reference. Too much chance of retaliation.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          But the wording on forms which ask for your current manager always promises “they will not be contacted prior to a written offer” and it’s also customary in the UK to check references after the job offer is made “subject to reference checks”. If I thought people were going to call my current manager during the interview process, without a job on the table, I wouldn’t give out details either!!

        4. Bast*

          I have now worked for 2 companies that would fire you if they found out that you had an interview, or even that you were merely LOOKING for a job. I have used other references when asked and generally, employers understood when I explained why.

      3. Niffler*

        See, and in my industry a reference from your current manager is a requirement. Our HR won’t process the hire without it. We also have employment contracts though, so we’re an oddity as it is.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          I was surprised when I was job hunting that literally all jobs but one said, “We WILL call your current supervisor, even if you say no and don’t want us to.”

    3. Zombeyonce*

      I would definitely let them know you need to change one of your references, and be sure to have a replacement ready to provide. Possible wording:

      “Unfortunately, I have learned that the current manager reference I provided is unhappy with their employees job searching and may give a biased account of my work history. Please speak with XNAME, XNAME, and/or XNAME who I currently work with as they can give a more accurate references.”

      The key is to make sure you’ve spoken to those people about providing references first (which you should really be doing in the first place), and having someone that currently works with you will help with problem of the hiring manager wondering if it’s a you or them issue.

      1. HonorBox*

        I like this script a lot.

        And I think as long as you have a different reference lined up, it shouldn’t come across as anything but your current manager being one of those people who can’t seem to be happy for others.

      2. ursula*

        FWIW, as someone who does hiring, if I received this script from someone requesting to change their reference, I would think “Yep that makes sense” and accept it at face value. Great suggestion.

      3. DivergentStitches*

        Yes, and maybe one of the people that he did dirty can be a reference and can back up your statement, should they want more clarification.

      4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I think this is the best option. It is also a good reminder that you shouldn’t be putting anyone down as a reference without talking with them first.

        1. Mad Scientist*

          Yes, this was my first thought when I saw OP’s comment. Never list someone as a reference without asking them first.

      5. Venus*

        I’d change it to be clear that this has happened.
        “I have recently learned that the current manager reference I provided has been critical of employees job searching and gave negative references to good employees.”

        Be clear that he has done this, use the plural because it has happened to more than one person, and agreed with providing other references.

        Good luck!

    4. Pay no attention...*

      I agree with Stuart Foote. Explain what you’ve heard and offer a new reference. If you have any good relationship with your manager’s boss or someone at or above his level, that would help negate any bad impression.

      But here’s an observation… I would never give someone’s name/contact as a reference without talking to them first to get their okay. Even if they wouldn’t be a bad reference, being surprised by a reference call would really put them on the spot unprepared and/or unavailable. Before giving a new reference, talk to the person to make sure they are on board.

      1. Window light*

        Thank you. Just to address this – a reference from my current employer was specifically asked for. Another factor is that this manager has told me other times that they’re happy to provide references for me (they were talking about side hustle contracts at the time).

        1. Kay*

          If you are in the US this is typically not done and I would have pushed back, saying something like “I’m concerned that would put my current job in jeopardy”. Unless they agree to call your other references, provide you with a solid offer only contingent on a reference from your current employer would I consider it. Even then I would be concerned since this is such a huge power imbalance. I would be closely monitoring how the company behaved considering how much risk they would be exposing me to.

          Also, your boss agreeing to be a reference for side hustles is very different than leaving the position. Unless your company has planned layoffs and has given you to go ahead with job searching I would really never do it.

        2. Reebee*

          That’s where I pause.

          Your manager actually told you that they’re “…happy to provide references for me.” Everything else is hearsay (“I heard…”).

          I would first speak with your manager before asking the company to which you’ve applied to change anything.

    5. Educator*

      I would reach out to the hiring manager and say something like:

      “As we move into the final stages of your process, I wanted to share a reference update. X is my current manager, so please do not contact him at this time. Instead, the contacts below can speak to my work at CurrentJob.”

      And then if you do accept an offer, I would go to the HR department at your current company before you tell your manager, tell them what you have heard about how he reacts, and ask that your future employer be directed to HR if they try to reach out to him for a reference. Let HR rein him in. Use phrases like “huge liability for your company if he misrepresents my work” and “want to help you avoid even the appearance of sabotaging departing employees.”

      And just list HR’s number as the contact for this job on future applications.

    6. Rainy*

      Reach out to the hiring manager and supply a different reference in his place. I don’t think it’s going to make you look bad at all, especially if you just say something like “Fred is my current manager, and I would prefer to use Joanie as a reference instead. Joanie was my manager before Fred and managed me for X years including during my promotion from Junior Engineer to Senior Engineer. Here is her contact info.”

      People typically understand when you don’t use a current manager.

      For the job I started this week, my references were a past direct supervisor (now Director), a past Director, and a supervisor who later became a member of my staff after a promotion. I kept my actual manager out of things entirely because I had reason to believe she would cause issues if she knew I was looking. In the event it wasn’t a big deal due to some unforeseen circumstances, but it definitely could have been.

    7. learnedthehardway*

      I would contact the company and let them know what you have learned – just as you have done here. Tell the HR person that you were unaware of this issue when you provided the reference.

      In future – never give out a reference before asking that person whether they would be willing to be a reference.

    8. Pellmell@gmail.com*

      Find a senior coworker who you’ve worked well with and ask them to be your reference, then switch it out using one of the scripts above.

  2. chocolate muffins*

    Small joys at work thread! It is the first week of school here and I have really enjoyed teaching and seeing students again. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Also our…first week of teaching (second week of school but the first was mostly a planning week and showing new 1st years around and stuff) and I have such an awesome 2nd year class. We spent two of our three classes this week laughing and discussing stuff. Actually most of my classes seem nice.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I recently completed building a new custom desk for myself from pine lumber. Last weekend, I finally was able to make time to move it into my home office. Working from it this week has been a joy; my posture is better, I have space for everything that goes on my desk, and the solid wood doesn’t chafe my sleeves and wrists as the deteriorating OSB of the old desk did. I’m spending more time on-task and getting back on task more easily when interruptions do arise.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        Oh that’s so amazing! And the satisfaction of having made it yourself must be a tiny boost every now and then throughout the day.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Thank you. You’re right about the occasional boosts from pride and satisfaction, too.

    4. anonlibrarian*

      my joy is related – the kids are back in school, so I have a few hours a day of relative peace and quiet at my library in which I can actually focus on my work.

      also, seeing their new school year hairdos and seeing the one kid who actually uses our Makerspace tech is nice. one of our biggest troublemakers even sat down to attempt the activity we put out!

      1. chocolate muffins*

        Relative peace and quiet is so important – I am feeling more relaxed just from reading that!

    5. WheresMyPen*

      I had my five-year anniversary of joining the company. Longest I’ve ever worked anywhere and first full time job so I’m proud I’ve made it this far!

      1. chocolate muffins*

        Thank you! I have never encountered such a muffin in the wild but I think they must exist and be delicious, especially if they also have chocolate chips in them.

        1. Subtle Tuba*

          When I was a child — some decades ago! — my local small-town supermarket did have them in their store bakery, just as you describe! With the chocolate chips. Yum.

          1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

            I love the chocolate w/ chocolate chip muffins at Costco.
            All their muffins are over-sized, and you have to buy them by the dozen, so I cut them in half and freeze. Then they’re available anytime I’m in need of a chocolate fix.

        2. Blue Cactus*

          My undergrad had chocolate chip muffins in the grab&go where you could get sandwiches and various sides. They were delicious and someday I hope to recreate them.

    8. H.Regalis*

      The grumpy old contractor who has been working with our software since its inception (decades) told me in response to my question about what his concerns were for a particular ticket that as long as it’s me working on it, he has no concerns.

      Grumper had raised concerns about it in a meeting I wasn’t at. The person who originally had the ticket is off for several weeks, so it went to Grumper and then he palmed it off on me. I do think he legitimately had concerns about the data being updated incorrectly and then not being able to roll it back, and it made me proud that he trusts me with it.

    9. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I had a great meeting with a student about a dung beetle research project (I’m a STEM librarian). The student had so many good questions and was really excited about the tips I showed them, and they have plans to meet with me again throughout their project.

    10. Blue*

      I run programs for teens and had an unexpected surge of sign ups for an event this weekend! Feels like I’m hitting my stride :)

    11. Rara Avis*

      We’re in week 3. I got a student asking to transfer into my class (schedule changes are rare here). Her older sister, a former student, came to visit and to thank me for sending her information for a subject-related gig which was perfect for her specific skills, and she got the job.

    12. ODPRuth*

      I received a thank you card and chocolate from a patient I looked after during her knee replacement last week. The anaesthetic team often get forgotten so it was really touching. In fact I cried! I will be putting the (redacted) card in my CPD portfolio.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        Congrats!
        My roommate fell in the kitchen on Wednesday night. Hip surgery took ALL day on Thursday. Thank you for the reminder that we need to thank ALL her support folks at the hospital after she is feeling better.

    13. Ms. Pym*

      A project that has taken far, FAR longer than expected and that we were worried would drag on for a few more months (it only needed on last step, but that was out of my hands and while it was a quick step it seemed like the only people who could do it weren’t making it a priority), was unexpectedly finished a few days ago. I was practically dancing with joy; so nice not to have that hanging over my head anymore!

    14. Rainy*

      I just started my new job! I’m sure there will be problems and dysfunctions but I am so incredibly excited to have gotten out of my old office, and to have been able to move across the country. Everyone is super nice so far and it really just feels like such a kind, humane, supportive environment.

    15. Blue Cactus*

      I’m on an emergency medicine rotation right now which isn’t my primary interest, but I had a great time in the pediatric ED last night and got to see some really cute babies who I think are all going to do great!

    16. oat tea*

      I had a series of interviews for a new jobs with over a dozen people yesterday, and after the high amount of anxiety I had going into it, I think I did pretty well! Even if I don’t end up getting the position, I’m pretty happy with how I prepared.

      Also my oldest child’s first day of preschool was yesterday, which is amazing and also kind of mind-blowing.

    17. Falling Diphthong*

      You know, while my own work has been mired in an eternally oozing schedule this week, my kids are having good weeks! Oldest is in first week of not-in-school-in-any-sense job and it’s going well. Youngest is a month into a job that threw a different group and a transfer at him shortly before starting, and he decided to give it a shot and it’s going well.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve been at my current job for about two and a half years. I’ve struggled with some anxiety and imposter syndrome. Yesterday was the first day I’ve actually felt like I knew what I was doing and interacted with people in a true peer to peer relationship.

    19. Banana Pyjamas*

      It’s my first week back at school as a returning student. After dealing with the school at large, the Econ professor is a breath of fresh air. She is on her game.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Thanks! I hope you’re right about curve breaking, I need a 3.8 gpa or higher to have a good chance of getting into my preferred program.

    20. Sled Dog Mama*

      Similar to Wheresmypen, as of yesterday I have been at this company longer than any other company! It won’t be 5 years until December but I counted days that I was at my previous employer and yesterday I met that total.

    21. RagingADHD*

      I took a kludgy form that didn’t actually capture the info we need, and turned it into a much easier to use form that does capture what we need.

      It was very satisfying.

    22. Rose is a rose is a rose*

      My co-worker is fostering a ~3 week-old kitten (found all on his own in a blackberry thicket). Since kitty needs feeding every few hours, she brought him to work! He is the teensiest little thing!

    24. Bike Walk Barb*

      Next week I’m at a conference we sponsor and one of my roles is to act as a conversational partner for a keynote speaker. She prefers to have a give and take rather than stand at a podium and deliver. I love this format idea, and we had a prep call in which I got to know her a bit. We clicked immediately and I’m sure this will be a great session and a nice change of pace from the norm for keynotes.

    25. Beka Cooper*

      Started a new job about a month and a half ago, full time on campus to start, then hybrid. Today I was told that I’m sufficiently out of my training period, and my hybrid schedule was officially approved! Two days a week back at home.

    26. BellaStella*

      My main joy is one that relates to funding! Four colleagues and I spent until midnight last night getting a big grant into a donor portal for a grant that – if we get this – will nearly triple our global budget. I am very proud to work with these folks (especially one, she is such a rock star) and it was a long slog of a few weeks getting all the parts and pieces together with many people on different teams helping. Fingers crossed! My secondary joy is that I do also think things are improving at work overall and I should have a positive update I hope by end of the week next week on at least one front.

    27. KKR*

      I had a couple of conversations I thought were going to go poorly (customer service) and they did not. My week is not over yet but ok so far.

    28. Not Sure If I'm Retired*

      I fiiinally transitioned out of a job working for a friend who turned out to be the worst.boss.ever. Found a great replacement for me, gave them months of turnover and am finally done! I am now taking a few months off to see what my brain does when I’m not working. I’ve been working since I was 14, so I have no idea!
      I could retire, in theory, although I wasn’t planning on it, but we’ll see!

  3. Let’s smile today!*

    I never thought I would find a job that checks off all the boxes. It is literally my dream job. The problem…. Health Insurance is self funded. Our outsourced HR presented paperwork in such a way that I didn’t realize until it was time to sign up. The company was upset with HR and documentation has since been reworded. The company is working on a solution but that is 9 months away. How do I reconcile that what is best for my personal financial goals, for my family is that I might have to leave. I have time to be picky and think things through but I am heartbroken.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Do you have Affordable Care Act insurance available in your state? There may be some more reasonable cost solutions.

    2. M2*

      you said family… does your partner have insurance you can sign up for? Have you looked at the health insurance options? Do they have any and you pay all premiums or you need to go on the website and do it yourself?

      Health insurance is part of your benefit so before you decide take that into consideration and the extra cost and stress for you.

      My BIL switched jobs and went to his wife’s insurance and it was an awakening. They had excellent insurance before and now every year they all must take a physical just for the insurance. Their deductible is $12k. He was telling me this and I replied “welcome to the real world! My family deductible has been $12k now for 5 years!” He also is paid more by not going into the health insurance.

      I’m sorry it is such a bummer but before you decline, but it is such a bummer!

      1. JelloStapler*

        Insurance is such a racket in the states. We have a surcharge for family but splitting up results in more deductibles. Ugh!

    3. Cj*

      By self funded, do you mean that the company pays your medical expenses instead of insurance company?

      I worked for a couple years for an extremely large employer that self-funded the insurance, meaning that the employer paid the medical expenses. I’m not sure how it actually worked, because we still had a Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance card, and I never ran into any issues with it.

      my main concern would be getting fired for having high medical expenses, even though that is illegal.

      1. Cj*

        reading the other comments, I’m wondering if instead you mean that you have to pay the entire cost of the health insurance? I thought the ACA required that employers pay at least 50% of the cost if they had more than 50 employees. or is your employer smaller than that?

    4. MI Dawn*

      Hi, Let’s smile today!

      Self-funded (depending on the size of the company) can mean 2 different things, so I would like to ask if that means you are paying 100% for your health insurance (which is what I am guessing from your email).

      For many large companies, at least in my state, “self-funded” means that instead of paying the insurance company a fixed rate every month, they pay the insurance company a variable rate, based on what amount the insurance company paid out the previous month. For example, last month, Insurance Company A paid $100,000 in insurance claims, so your Company pays them $110,000 this month (cost of claims and management fee). But this month, your company only had $50,000 in claims, so next month they will only pay $55,000 to the Insurance Company. Many very large companies in my state function this way. You may still need to contribute to the premium, but you are not paying the full amount.

      Other companies pay a fixed rate (think of how you can set up an “equal payment plan” with your electric or natural gas company), no matter how much or how little the Insurance Company pays out in claims. Some large companies do this, but it’s more common among smaller companies. Again, you may still need to contribute to the premium, but you are not paying the full amount.

      Very small companies, and companies that don’t offer health insurance, have “individual” policies where the company does not pay the Health Insurance company any money and you are required to pay the full premium.

      1. Cj*

        I made a similar comment above, but you definitely have more detail than I do on how it worked for the company. I honestly never ran into any problems with it, and it was actually very good insurance.

      2. RCB*

        Exactly all of this! When I saw self-funded I thought “that’s great, it’s so much better!!” but then context clues made me realize that they likely meant they have to pay for all of their insurance premiums themselves, which is not good at all, so two definitions with VERY opposite meanings.

      3. Hillary*

        One more thing on the large company self-funding – the company usually also carries backstop insurance, and that cost is included in the budget. That means if employees have a really unlucky year costs don’t skyrocket next year.

        Self-insuring also lets them combine the budgets for health insurance and workers comp, especially valuable for manufacturers. It creates a financial incentive to maintain a safety culture.

        The times I’ve had self-funded insurance it’s been 50% or less of comparable ACA plan cost.

    5. Lisa*

      Wow, that is a major deal! If you had known it was all coming from your own pocket, you could have negotiated a higher salary to cover the difference. I would be hesitant with the company. It’s easy for them to blame the HR company and claim to have updated the documentation, but that’s such a departure from most business practices that it should have been on them to mention during the process. That they didn’t means they think they can get you for cheaper than you deserve. I would see this as a major red flag. What else aren’t they telling you about the job, if they’re keeping something so important to (what I assume is) American job benefits from you until you’re signed up.

    6. Let’s smile today!*

      Hi all! Thank you for the quick responses. To answe the common questions….

      I am in NYS

      Company should hit 50 employees soon but we just had our open enrollment in august

      Hubby is self employed so our Obamacare / NYS options are the same

      By self funded I mean the employee pays 100% of premium

      1. M2*

        Can you ask for more money or a sign on bonus to cover the premiums until they offer insurance? If so get it in writing so that if next year they don’t offer insurance then you’ll get it again.

        Also more and more employers are doing this or only cover a certain % if the premium for family members.

        My partner had a job where the org covered 100% of excellent insurance and then suddenly we got maybe a 3 month notice that it would cover 75% of premiums for employees and only 50% of premiums for spouses and dependents. It was a bummer but the insurance itself was excellent so the premiums basically covered all we ever were paying out of pocket. So check how much you’ll be out of pocket and see if the organization can give you some kind of bump to cover the premium costs.

        1. Ann O'Nemity*

          It sounds like you accepted the salary in good faith, believing health insurance premiums would be part of your total compensation. Not getting health insurance benefits is a BIG deal. Ask for more money to compensate for their misleading benefits documentation. If they can’t provide that, ask for severance. Even that won’t make you whole, but it’s something to help you transition to a better employer.

    7. Pyanfar*

      For the other type of self-funded (where the employer pays the actual costs of health care instead of traditional insurance), you may want to ask how your information is protected. I once worked somewhere that all the senior managers got specifics – diagnosis, treatment provided, and cost by employee by name! Several people had to answer really personal questions…

    8. Dandylions*

      I’ve had self funded insurance through work before, and honestly it was the same as any other insurance through work.

      My only pet peeve is that every year HR would get on our cases about getting too many medical tests.

      Other then that my rate was fixed even if the companies rate was not.

    9. Friday Hopeful*

      If they really are trying to “fix it” then instead of waiting nine months, why can’t you ask them to give you more money to supplement what you will have to pay? This fixes it immediately for you.

    10. DottedZebra*

      This is what I would say:

      “I wouldn’t have accepted this position at this salary if I had known that the health insurance would be completely my responsibility. Because the misunderstanding was your fault, as you acknowledged, I’d like to discuss ways for the company to make this right.”

      And then you should calculate the additional costs and ask for them to pay that to you. Make sure you account for taxes so that you are not out a single dime.

    11. learnedthehardway*

      Negotiate a higher salary to offset the cost of the self-funded insurance (remember to factor in what you would pay in income taxes). OR – negotiate a sign-on bonus that would cover the amount you need.

      I would at least broach the subject and try to negotiate so that you don’t lose money.

  4. Harlowe*

    Can I vent about ominously-named meetings? It’s 2024 and upper management still thinks it’s cute to set a meeting 4-6 weeks out, with titles like “placeholder for Bigshot Director” or “Conversation about Department X”. If you’re smart enough to climb the ladder, you’re smart enough to know that this makes people anxious, and you clearly just don’t care. Hiding the invite list, double suck.

    1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      I hate ambiguously named meetings in general (like, tell me WHY we need to meet about Case X, please!) but that is a whole added layer of sucky.

      1. RedinSC*

        I hate that, along with not having a description of what the meeting is about, so ambiguous name and no details? That’s just messed up.

    2. Stuart Foote*

      On a related note, I used to have a boss who had a tendency to send texts on the weekend saying stuff like “We need to discuss X on Monday”, and then Monday would roll around and the conversation about X would be some minor clarification that wasn’t even that urgent. It was just a quirk and I got used to it, but it made me nervous at first.

    3. Workerbee*

      And they never have agendas. Bah!

      My team, after our tiny company had had a couple of those “this person is no longer with the company” surprises, went en masse to our VP when he put a meeting on our calendars that had no agenda and was simply titled “Meeting with VP.” To his credit, he immediately blanched and said he’d had no intention of freaking us all out. He resolved to be better at labeling meetings in the future.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Exjob did that when they laid people off. The time before me, all it said was, “emergency meeting.” We all thought someone had died.

        I wonder what it said when I got laid off. It probably didn’t freak them out so badly, because I told several people before I packed my stuff, so I’m sure the entire office knew before lunchtime.

    4. Liz*

      I had a manger who did this to me ALL THE TIME. Would just put meetings on my calendar titled something like “Liz / John” with NO information and it would always turn out to be…. he needed to ask me a low-priority question about something.

    5. Lisa*

      Is it more than one person that does this? Depending on where you are in the pecking order, you could start asking the invitee or your boss “Is there more information on this meeting? It’s unclear if my attendance is required and I don’t want to waste company time if my presence is not needed.”

      1. MagnaCarta*

        That’s my approach. Unless it’s a true bigshot, in which case I just suck it up and vent to my partner about how inconsiderate it is.

    6. Charley*

      Are the invited direct from the meeting convened, or do they have a scheduler? When I was in a junior role that involved scheduling a lot of meetings for Big Shot Dean of Blah Blah Blah, my boss would often ask me to schedule meetings without giving me more than a list of needed participants and a general topic, and I rarely felt I had standing to press for details unless someone I contacted explicitly asked and I needed to answer them. I’m not saying it’s not annoying, but in my experience that’s mostly been an unintended side-effect of the not-unreasonable practice of farming scheduling out to people who don’t have all the information themselves.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yes, I hate this! I can see not putting tons of details into the NAME of the meeting, but including info in the invitation or sending out a separate email with details is so important. And I hate people who hide invite lists.

    8. WheresMyPen*

      I had one of these. We were all invited to a meeting called ‘Chat with HR’. Individually. It wasn’t good news unfortunately. Even my managers were blindsided. I’d much rather they’d just called us out the blue instead of having that in our calendars 48 hours early.

    9. Nesprin*

      I ask for agendas for “Checkin meetings” or other vague meetings. If I don’t get an agenda, I try to move the meeting to as soon as possible.

    10. Ama*

      I worked some place that only put vague meeting titles in for all staff meetings when people got laid off (it would be for the meeting where the public announcement was made, they would have already spoken privately with the people/person being laid off and their immediate team). And then one time they put the same vague meeting on the calendar… and it turned out the board had bought the staff champagne and treats in appreciation for a very productive busy season.

      I suspect at least a few people mentioned to the CEO the emotional roller-coaster that caused because they stopped even doing the vague titles for bad news meetings.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        One company my nephew worked at had two meetings. The smaller meeting (25% of company) were told they were laid off. They were escorted to their desks to pack up and then out of the building. But on the way they walked past the open doorway of the other meeting!

  5. DJ Abbott*

    So, I’ve posted before about the department manager who started last year. I’m the lowest person in the department hierarchy, the front desk admin. She came in when I had been at my job for more than a year, asking me questions which I answered, asking my opinions which I gave. Then she gave me a bad review that said I was uncooperative and some other things.
    Almost everything on the review was marked “needs improvement”. I wondered if she was trying to get rid of me.
    This week she and another manager and I had a meeting where we went over some things they want me to improve. We discussed the review and neither of them sees a problem with it. They say others have received similar reviews, though of course I haven’t seen them.
    This is a government office. Everywhere else I’ve worked, “needs improvement” indicates a person is not doing their job. “Meets expectations” is the baseline for keeping the job. The thing that bothers me about this review is, it could be used as an excuse at any time to try to manage me out.
    Do you think my fear of this is justified, or am I making too much of it?
    The other thing that bothers me is she wants communication that’s less straightforward and “nicer”. I have always been straightforward and direct. I am not able to comprehend people who want me to dance around and guess and hint about something as simple as “here is this thing I know you want.” She sees direct communication as being too rough. A few times she has put me off balance by asking why I don’t do something or think of something when we both know the situation and what I would normally do. I think she’s being manipulative and trying to assert power, but the other manager doesn’t see it.
    Also, she has made it clear in every way that I am not to tell her anything. I can ask questions about what I should do, but I cannot give her information, no matter how useful or important it would be.
    What do you all think of this? Should I be concerned and if so, how much?
    Thank you!

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t understand why straightforward and nice are two separate categories in your mind. I also think you need to look for a new job because even if she’s not trying to manage you out, you two obviously dislike and don’t trust each other. That’s unworkable.

      1. RedinSC*

        Exactly. There is not going to be an upside here. Start looking. If this is government, see about a transfer to another department.

    3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      She sounds like kind of a mess. That said, since the other manager doesn’t seem super surprised, maybe there are some things you need to work on and she’s not entirely wrong in substance but not great in delivery? I have a couple suggestions.

      I recently discovered a thing called Goblin Tools, where you can put in an email and then ask the tool to change the tone for you. (I’m also pretty direct, I tend to write emails and then go back over it and add niceties or soften it).

      If you have a union, please talk to them.

      I am a fed and needs improvement is in PIP territory–do you have a PIP?
      I sympathize with your worries, that sounds like not a great situation. Are there other agencies or departments you could move to/apply for?

      1. Lisa*

        This felt somewhat like a potential issue around neurodivergence as well. Some of the ND folks I work with are very direct when discussing work issues, and it can come across as anywhere from curt to aggressive. It doesn’t really bother me, but I suspect if they were in a more outward facing role, like a front desk person, it would be a bigger struggle for them to fill the less clear expectations around that role, like making others comfortable.

        I could of course be reading too much into this. Either way, it sounds like the best option is to find somewhere else to work, because this relationship doesn’t sound workable.

        1. GythaOgden*

          I was a receptionist for ten years and am autistic. I was able to do the job without issues (it was a big surprise that I thrived so much, but I’m actually quite outgoing in social situations — I just find them very draining later on). Neurodivergence is not a smokescreen for issues; it makes them harder to manage (such as I have problems with being able to mask, which is fine on a good day but terrible on a bad one) but you can’t go round saying ‘I’m neurodivergent so I get to be a grump’ to other people in a job such as the one DJA holds. There’s no accommodation for personality issues; they’re your responsibility to handle.

          If it was just this one woman who was upset with DJ, I’d say it was an outlier, but if other people around them agree, then it’s something worth looking at. If DJ going to look at another job, I think it would also help to analyse some of the concerns people have, because it could actually be a difficulty that follows you from place to place. Coming across as abrasive to others isn’t a great trait in any workplace, and being ‘straightforward and direct’ can, alas, be code for ‘I don’t take any prisoners in dialogue with you’ which, yeah, can’t be good in any role for anyone, ND or NT.

          The other thing I remember from a while back was DJ asking us about interruptions from phones on the front desk and mitigating the impact on her clerical work. A lot of us pointed out that it was important for a receptionist/front desk admin to be able to drop stuff to deal with the phones. It may well be the case that DJ struggles with the demands of the job to have the sort of welcoming demeanour important in a front desk admin and thus is struggling where she is. That’s also cause for looking for a new job, but it won’t help if she’s just trying to find a place where demeanour won’t matter; it will actually require her to make a shift towards a more friendly persona to be able to gel well with new colleagues.

          Dismissing feedback that comes from one ornery person with an axe to grind might be fair. Dismissing something as potentially gendered might also be fair (although I’ve seen a lot of people here who classify themselves as straightforward and direct being blunt and even hard-nosed, which also suggests an actual problem rather than a theoretical one and makes the ‘it’s just gendered, you’re good’ platitudes ring a bit hollow for me).

          But when it’s coming from someone new (who is coming in with a relatively fresh perspective unvarnished by familiarity) and from others, it’s worth taking on board.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            Well, it’s a bit of a story. My first year there was chaos. I had never done reception before and the training was haphazard, there was so much pressure that the person before me had walked off the job, and I almost did too. The pressure came from having to answer the phones, visitors, and do administrative assignments. On busy phone and visitor days there wasn’t enough time to do the administrative work, and the managers didn’t understand that. There were times when the pressure caused me to get frustrated and be a little short with people. And I was corrected.
            The department manager at the time was supportive and helped me both with the pressure and getting the other manager to back off. I found ways to quantify the phone and visitor work, and make clear to them how much time it was taking.
            Now almost 2 years later, it’s much better. The other manager and I have a good supportive relationship. I am generally friendly and supportive, and have had no complaints about the way I treat clients.
            So at this point the new department manager is the only one complaining about my communication. She’s not willing to accommodate that I am straightforward, she wants me to do what she likes people to do. Her social and emotional needs are her priority, and she wants a department full of besties. There’s also an underlying power dynamic. She gets mad – I can see it in her face – if I try to tell her anything or stand up to her in any way. I tried to describe this to the other manager and she doesn’t see it. She says I’m being too negative and should make an effort, and I will.
            I don’t think this department manager will ever respect me enough to give me growth opportunities. I was hoping we could work through the difficulties, but I don’t think she’s willing to do that.

      2. A Significant Tree*

        I agree – this sounds like a terrible manager fit for you. She doesn’t like your style of communication, and her own style seems to be making it hard for you to understand what she is looking for. (It’d be hard for anyone to figure out – “don’t give me information” is a deeply weird instruction!)

        Who was your dept manager before her? Is that someone you can ask for feedback to both see if there’s anything legit to the current review and to provide you a reference for finding a new job? If you had a normal/good review and feedback your first year and have only seen “needs improvement” since this manager came on board, things aren’t likely to get better until you get a different manager.

        2. DJ Abbott*

          She hasn’t actually said not to give her information, but she is obviously offended when I do. When she first came I tried to help her understand our processes, and that’s when she said I was uncooperative.

          1. Great Frogs of Literature*

            When she first came I tried to help her understand our processes, and that’s when she said I was uncooperative.

            This makes me wonder if she sees you as resistant to changes that she’s trying to make. I don’t have a good solution, unfortunately, but thinking back on those interactions, is there anything in the interaction where you’re trying to explain to her why things are the way they are that she might’ve read as you being stuck in the mud and unwilling to do things her way?

            1. DJ Abbott*

              I think she did see it that way, but my intent was to give her context.
              It’s like she was waiting for me to give her permission by acknowledging she’s the manager. We both know she can make changes if she wants to. Why does she need my permission?

              1. Reluctant Mezzo*

                She wants you to read her mind. Sometimes my husband would ask me what we should do for the evening, I’d give my opinion, and he would say, ‘no, we’re doing something else.’ That led to me trying to guess what he wanted me to say.

          2. Reebee*

            “…she has made it clear in every way that I am not to tell her anything. I can ask questions about what I should do, but I cannot give her information…”

            ?

      3. honeygrim*

        Yeah, the “needs improvement = PIP” was what I was thinking. Where I work (also government), if I want to give a direct report a “needs improvement”-type review, I have to talk to HR first so that they’re ready to proceed with our PIP process.

        I don’t know what level of government you’re in, DJ Abbott, or even what country. But I would definitely be thinking about moving to a new job. Even if this manager isn’t deliberately trying to manage you out, she seems to perceive your work in such a negative way that I don’t know if you’d be able to change her mind. I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time!

      4. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        GoblinTools is awesome!

        As for the rest, document everything. I find it helpful to send myself a description of things that have happened to a personal email account. The time and date stamps come in handy. Just recount what happened; don’t editorialize or speculate.

        It’s not a bad idea to follow up verbal conversations with the Department Manager in an email, clarifying what you understood her to say to you and what is expected of you. (Also forward these to your personal account.)

        Talk to your union rep, if you have one.

        A sudden change in your evaluations that coincides with a change in Department Manager should raise red flags with your organization.

      5. DJ Abbott*

        Thanks. Her problem is with the way I speak to her. It seems like a power thing, as far as I can tell.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, be concerned. Check in with your union or ombudsman, see if they have advice for you. You don’t say what level of government, but at the federal level it is easier to move around within the organization (or government) than to apply from the outside – see if anyone else in your organization has an open position at your level that needs your skills. Get your network helping you find a new gig – wishing you luck!

    5. DivergentStitches*

      I would be concerned too about the “needs improvement.”

      But it could just be that they do think you need improvement and they don’t see that as a red flag. I’m with you that anything less than “meets expectations” is a sign that danger is coming.

      I am like you and very straightforward and direct so I had to teach myself some tricks. Exclamation points work great!

      Hi Alison!
      Thank you for the documents. Attached please find the invoices you needed after our meeting. Please let me know if you need anything else!

      Thanks,
      Me

      I always include a greeting and farewell and I’ve taught myself to write “more nice” using exclamation points and saying things like “have a great weekend” in closing, etc. Neurotypicals love that stuff :)

      1. Rainy*

        Lol, I write the email the way I would normally and then I go back and add the stuff the NTs like.

        Draft 1:
        Hi DivergentStitches,

        Thanks for this. Invoices are attached.

        Cheers,
        Me

        Draft 2:
        Hi DivergentStitches,

        I hope you are enjoying the sunny weather! Thank you for the receipts. I’ve attached those invoices we talked about. Let me know if you have any questions or need something else to get those processed.

        Cheers, happy Friday!
        Me

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          +1 to both of these. You can still be very direct, but using an exclamation point (especially in your greeting) and opening with a social nicety can go a long way. I’ve also been told I’m too formal, so I try to remember to use feel free to reach out since it feels more casual. IME if you’re a young woman in local government you can expect to experience tone policing until around 30.

          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            I also will say I have run into all the guess culture in local government and direct communication is absolutely seen as rude. OP’s manager is absolutely showing signs they are guess culture by asking why OP don’t think of or do something rather than stating how they would like Op to do the task.

            1. Bike Walk Barb*

              When I read about them asking OP what they think I wondered if that’s an attempt to coach that doesn’t land as such. As in maybe they’re thinking “Needs to be more creative in problem-solving. Hey, I know, I’ll give her a pop quiz and see how she does!” instead of saying directly, “I’d like you to bring me solutions so if you ask me what to do, I’ll ask what you think you’d do.”

              2. Banana Pyjamas*

                I can say that in the continuing education for my government niche there is a focus on teaching managers to approach problems with curiosity. It’s possible this is a misguided attempt to approach with curiosity as well. It’s really for when you need additional context about the cause of a problem though.

                Regardless, when you have context, and you know what you want, framing that as a question has a much higher chance of landing poorly. It often reads as passive-aggressive.

                I do still think the manager is very guess culture oriented as they communicate with questions and also want OP to communicate with questions.

                All OP can do is ask questions. When manager asks why they didn’t think of or do something OP should ask if that’s what the manger would like them to do going forward. Then ask if there’s anything else. Ending conversations with thank you can work with people who are otherwise nice to begin with.

        2. FricketyFrack*

          Wait, I’m NT (probably? afaik?) and I don’t think you have to do that much. I usually add something like, “If you have any questions/if there’s anything else I can do to help/whatever makes sense for the email in question, please let me know,” but that’s it. And that’s only because people frequently DO have questions. I wouldn’t think twice about your first message, though.

          1. Banana Pyjamas*

            It can vary. IME other folks from government offices really want the niceties. On top of that I have been coached to pretend I don’t know or understand and to use questions when the other person makes a mistake of any kind. I refuse to play dumb. However, I have started using compare and contrast questions, and that usually goes over well.
            So for example I would say “The supporting document says a but the paperwork says b, can you confirm which is correct?”

            Meanwhile you can be extremely brief with attorneys, and their answers to you will probably be even shorter, if they’re even complete sentences.

          2. Just Another Cog in the Machine*

            I am actually really annoyed when I have to plow through a bunch of pleasantries to get to the point. Like, I say “Thanks” and “If you have any questions, please let me know” and just generally “please,” but if you ask me about my week, I now feel like I have to answer that, and I just want to get this email conversation over with so we can both move on.

            1. Reebee*

              Yeah, same. I work for my state’s government and most of the people with who I communicate via email just want brevity, myself included.

              1. Banana Pyjamas*

                I would love to know where, if you’re willing to share. I feel in my bones that please, thank you and good morning should be plenty for professional communication.

          3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

            FricketyFrack,
            I don’t think it’s an NT vs ND thing.
            What counts as warmly professional and direct(the desired middle ground), versus curt and uninformative on the one extreme or over the top social and effusive on the other extreme varies according to may factors like industry, company, or societal norms, power dynamics, and personal preference.

            My experience is that both ND people and NT people can favor either curt or chatty, direct or indirect.

            And it’s a universal human tendency tend to ascribe their own inclinations to a group status (versus individual inclination) and derogate the opposite, to strengthen their own sense of positive identity.

                1. Banana Pyjamas*

                  I have definitely experienced the sexism in this dynamic. One of my bosses suggested I should be more bubbly.

                  Google AI definition

                  A bubbly personality is characterized by someone who is lively, cheerful, and talkative. It can also refer to someone who is full of energy and enthusiasm, especially a woman or girl

          4. Rainy*

            I don’t think I should have to do that much either, but if it keeps people off my case, I will.

            I will also say that I have found that being both ND and a woman, and being pretty direct in my communication in general, I basically have to go a little far in the other direction specifically in email/written communication or some people will want to get shirty with me about it. (Well, they think they want to get shirty about it–I haven’t encountered anyone in years who actually wants that smoke when it comes down to it.)

        3. Great Frogs of Literature*

          Yeah, early in my career I got some feedback that my email manner was too blunt, or abrasive, or something, (despite other positive feedback that I was clear and concise) and I didn’t fix it with exclamation points, but rather with:
          1) Write email
          2) Make sure it has a friendly salutation (“Hello reader,”)
          3) Add one chit-chatty sentence in the body
          4) Sign off with “Best” or “Cheers” or “Sincerely” instead of just my name

          I did that for anyone I didn’t know well, and ESPECIALLY for one particular person who was known to be a bit of a hard-nose about email etiquette in what I would consider an old-fashioned way — she got two chatty sentences — and I didn’t get any more negative feedback about my email style.

          1. GythaOgden*

            It’s so easy to do.

            Also, be sincere. People can tell when it’s a facade. Say these things, and mean them, and don’t go all speak-your-weight-machine even with pleasantries. It helps to mould yourself into someone who cares about others’ wellbeing when it’s obvious you do care and aren’t just on autopilot.

            If it’s Friday, wish them a good weekend. If they’ve done a lot for you on short notice, thank them for their hard work. I deal with a customer rep who plays hardball with obtaining particular report every month, and I’ve learned how to handle her, but I’ve also understood that she’s under pressure from her bosses to get our report out to key stakeholders, so I’ve openly said that she works hard and thanked her directly for making the meetings happen.

            After that, it was really much easier to work with her and she dropped the stony façade a bit. It required me to make the first move, but it established me as someone who genuinely cared she was having a good day, and that can be the little thing that keeps you going.

            With me, what you see is what you get. I am that odd autistic person out who cannot mask to save her life. I pride myself on being sincere, and want to be a nice person to work with. I’ve really learned in this job how to do all that while actually prodding people to get stuff done, and it’s helped me develop a thicker skin and boosted my confidence enormously. But I know you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I want to be as nice as possible while laying down the law. (And it is really nice to, say, write in a card to someone who took another job but came back that ‘it wasn’t the same without you’ and have them come and thank you for it. You’re making someone’s day just a little bit nicer for about zero effort, and it can be rewarding for you internally as well as vastly improving your external relationships.)

            So it’s possible to be both. It takes a lot of effort, particularly when it’s hard-going and doesn’t come naturally. But it also helps to see your colleagues, managers, suppliers and customers as siblings-in-arms and being nice to people means sincerity and understanding their needs as well as just mechanically turning out pleasantries.

        4. Clisby*

          I’m NT and don’t see anything wrong with the first way you wrote it. The second sounds kind of phony. (I suspect the difference in how people would react to the two communications has little to do with ND/NT).

    6. Cj*

      I agree with the others that you need to look for a new job. even if she’s not trying to manage you out, this doesn’t sound like a manager you would want to work under.

      I understand a government office can have benefits that private industry doesn’t and you might want to stay in government, so is there another department or office you can transfer to?

    7. Kay*

      First I would have someone you trust give you feedback. It sounds to me like your communication may be short, gruff, devoid of the warmth and pleasantness needed to build relationships and especially for someone in a front desk role, and it sounds like management’s style doesn’t work well with yours.

      The fact that two managers agree on this tells me that this has been an issue, they want improvement, and if they don’t see it they will manage you out. She is asking why you don’t do things/think of things because she is trying to get you to see what you should be doing or what she wants. (think – did you check the how to manual before asking me) Yes, you both know what you typically do, but here she is telling you she wants you to do something different and she wants you to think about this and start doing it on your own.

      I’m guessing the “don’t tell me anything, ask” is her saying your communication style is too forward. If you are doing things like telling her the bathroom is of toilet paper and needs more instead of asking if you or someone could put in a rush order of toilet paper because the last roll is almost gone, or told her you would be on vacation over Christmas instead of asking for time off – well, I can see why she said that.

      I would really reflect on this and decide if this role/position is going to work for you and if you want to consider the changes they are looking for. I would be looking for another job because it seems to me like there is a fundamental mismatch between what they want, and how you work. Which is totally fine! Just know that if these issues they have brought up aren’t just them being overly weird about things, they could continue to be issues for you in the future.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I have worked with a number of leaders/ managers who like to get VIP / kid-glove treatment, and it is not a guarantee that they will be bad to work for in other respects. I’ve had some very smart, fair managers who just had this weakness in the ego department. But I can’t tell whether your manager is the kind who just has a foible, or is also bad to work for.

      For giving information, I’d suggest that when you see a topic come up on which you have useful context she does not know, try pinging her on the most casual platform you use (like Teams or Slack), or if you’re in person, mentioning it in passing “Hey, FYI, there’s some background on X you might want. I’d be happy to loop you in whenever you’re free.”

      That leaves the initiative with her.

      For communication style, I’d suggest studying her own emails and those of the folks she seems to get along with, and try incorporating some of the style or phrases.

      Being asked “why didn’t you do x” or “why don’t you do y” is very off putting, I agree. The best way I found to deal with it is to say something like, “Oh, that’s an idea. Let me think about that. Thanks!”

      As to whether she is going to manage you out – yes, I would certainly take her feedback to mean that she is not happy with your performance and may move in that direction. But I think if you otherwise like the job, there are some adjustments you could make in your communication that would be relatively painless and might help a lot.

    9. Sharon*

      Is it possible the new manager is tasked with improving processes in your office and is simply trying to get you to do your job a different way than you have in the past, such as by taking more initiative? I’d ask questions to try to understand the “why” behind her asks and see if you can get on board with the changes she’s requesting. You could even ask her what is likely to happen if you don’t improve.

      Also on direct communication – I had to work on this myself. It’s amazing how much smoother everything goes and how much more people trust and respect you when you soften your language. It may seem stupid, but a lot of people think it’s really important so you should train yourself to do it, because it gets better results.

      1. GythaOgden*

        I’d add that if you’re on the front desk, you need better communication than ‘straightforward and direct’. You need to smooth off any rough edges because there’s a definite need for people to feel they’re dealing with a human being. People don’t always have a good idea as to how they come across to others, but others who work with them also have needs. Remembering that what matters is not your own assessment of the situation but others’ assessments is key to a job in which good communication is non-negotiable.

        Additionally, even if DJ looks for a new job, communication is going to be an important facet of that as well so even if she’s looking, she needs to be prepared to listen to feedback and reconcile who she is with what others need from her. From my perspective working with someone who is ‘straightforward and direct’ can be a nightmare — my former supervisor was such a person and it really was difficult to trust her communication skills and made her feel less approachable than my line managers were. It got better the longer I was there, and I won her over very quickly by all accounts as someone hard to please, but the difference between working with her and working for my current team in terms of communication and general establishment of rapport is night and day.

        So even if you’re certain it’s this one person driving change, I think there’s a really big thing to tackle here in general — that it matters so much to people to have colleagues that feel approachable and have a collegiate demeanour that it makes what you’re trying to achieve — a resolution to a hospital bedlinen payment dispute which isn’t your actual responsibility but the supplier has somehow glommed onto you and won’t take the hint that it’s not you he needs to speak to, a report delayed because we want some figures to update before we send it out but you can’t tell the customer that, a tricky email from compliance about a form you filled in — so much easier to achieve.

        Communication skills are hardwired into any collective work endeavour. You don’t have to gush to other people, but you do have to make the process of dealing with you as smooth as possible.

    10. learnedthehardway*

      I would be concerned and would be talking to HR about this. Yes, it does sound like she is trying to oust you.

      1. GythaOgden*

        HR might ask her what she’s done to resolve the situation first, and talk to others. It is probably either easier to look for another job which is a better fit or think about what the manager is asking without prejudice, feeling they’re out to get you or that it relates to your gender.

        I’d start with the trusted colleague route myself.

    11. DJ Abbott*

      Thanks everyone! You’ve given me a lot of information and things to think about.
      I’ve been wondering if I should look for a new job but wasn’t sure I’m up for it, and I’ve worked so hard to get up and running in this one, I didn’t want to give up yet.
      I dream of a job with a better commute, straightforward management, and less intense. I’m going to start looking casually and tap into my network, and see what happens.
      The thing that really tipped it for me is when she said she doesn’t like the way I speak to her, that I’m too rough. The incident she referred to was nothing unusual, I had simply brought her a document I knew she would want about the case she’s working on, and when I gave it to her she said why didn’t I think of calling the person myself, when we both know it’s her case and I would have to have direction to do that. Then I was so flummoxed I stammered and explained that I would need more direction to work on that case.
      Note she did NOT include this in the meeting notes she sent me. Nothing in writing about this. I will let HR know.
      She was doing this on the daily last summer, constantly criticizing small things and as far as I could determine, not doing that to anyone else. She will never like or respect me enough to give me growth opportunities, and I might as well get away from that toxicity if I can.
      Meanwhile, I have looked up information about guess culture and softening language and I’ll try to accommodate her going forward.

  6. Jessica Ganschen*

    I have some good news with a little catch. First, after more than 7 and a half months of job searching, I finally have a new job! I’ve been informed that I’m their final selection but not yet received the official job offer, so hopefully nothing falls through. However, the catch is that the High Holy Days are in less than a month. When should I bring this up? Normally I would take off all the days that are “Yom Tov” (essentially, major holidays where we don’t do work), but this year that’s six weekdays, which seems like an impossible ask so soon after starting. I feel like I’ll be lucky to get both days of Rosh Hashanah. I’m just glad that Yom Kippur is on a Saturday this year.

    1. Z*

      Mazel Tov! I would wait until you have the offer in hand to mention it, and offer to take the days unpaid if you won’t be able to use vacation time yet. In my opinion, this is not an unreasonable ask since it’s for religious observance, and a decent employer would not have a problem with this.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      When you respond to the job offer, mention that you observe the holidays (and list the dates) and ask whether they would be able to accommodate those as unpaid days off during your onboarding period, or if it would be better to set a start date after them.
      Just like if you had a scheduled vacation or doctor’s appointment. Matter of fact.

    3. MsM*

      When you get the official letter, I’d say. Hopefully you’re not the first Jewish employee they’ve dealt with.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Bring it up when negotiating the offer, and be matter-of-fact about needing those days off as a religious accommodation. Offer to take them unpaid, but otherwise don’t hedge, don’t say “I’d like all six but if that’s too much trouble…” — state what you need and let them respond.

      This would likely not be a big deal even if it were just a vacation, people start jobs with pre-planned vacations all the time!

    5. Yes And*

      I would bring it up on your first day, and not before. I would use a tone of, of COURSE this won’t be problem, I’m just letting you know.

      Companies hire year-round, on the schedule of their own business needs. They can’t stop hiring, or refuse to hire Jewish candidates, just because the timing is inconvenient with religious observances. Accommodations will just need to be made.

      1. Pretty as a Princess*

        Please do not wait until the first day.

        I think every person I have hired in the last decade has had some thing in the mix with start date or first month of work were they had something planned that they needed to accommodate. Holidays, weddings, vacations, etc. We start a conversation with “this is what we are aiming at as a start date, and if that isn’t workable or you have questions, let’s talk about it.” And we work out the appropriate thing: shifting a start date, borrowing a few vacation days, etc.

        I’d be frustrated with someone for waiting until the day they started to tell me this – not because I don’t want to accommodate a religious holiday – because if someone has a known need they didn’t tell me about, they have closed off options for what I can do for them.

        In the situation the OP is in where they really prefer to take all 6 days but of course need the minimum of both days of Rosh Hashanah: I can approve up to 5 days of vacation “in the hole” for any employee with no need for additional approvals. 6 days, I can’t do. I have to send that up to whatever level for approval. With a lead time of X many days required unless it’s an emergency. So, if someone told me this on their first day of employment, I would *want* to fully meet their request but I’d be unable to do so because I *can’t* meet the approval requirement. I can’t let them take LWOP because being on a “leave” in that first month means they aren’t a full time employee that month and that affects their benefits eligibility and cost. I can give them two days. I can give them 5 days. But if I’m surprised with a need for a week off that I wasn’t expecting, that might also cause us to need to rearrange projects or other opportunities because they were coordinated based on the negotiated start date. I don’t want someone’s first experience with us being that they feel they have to choose between a religious observance and a cool piece of work – when I could have prevented that if I’d had the information up front.

        If the person talks with me when we are negotiating the offer – we can talk about specific days and dates and needs and I can maximize what I can do for them. I can explain options and policies and see where we can make tradeoffs. If I know *when I am negotiating the start date* I might be able to get them 6 paid days. Or I can push off the start date until Oct 14, etc. Maybe we agree on 5 days. Maybe it’s something else. But I would so much rather work this WITH a person when I have the MOST flexibility to do the best possible thing I can for them, than have them surprise me with it when I have fewer options available.

    6. WellRed*

      You could also offer to start after the holidays? By the time they offer the job and you give notice, that’s really not that far off.

      1. londonedit*

        That was going to be my suggestion – if the official offer etc takes another week, then it sounds like it’ll only be 2-3 weeks anyway, maximum of a month, and it may well make sense for them just to wait until the holiday is over (as they would if you’d already booked a trip or something).

    7. Blue Eared Cat*

      It is possible for you to start right after they end? If you can afford to negotiate the start date, they may be your best bet. Otherwise, ask if it is possible to go in negative for paid leave, borrow from next year, or take unpaid leave.

      Good luck

    8. Workerbee*

      Just chiming in to say that if you do offer to postpone your start date, see where it falls in the pay period and if it affects when insurance kicks in and other benefits. Not to deter you from taking the days you should! Just if any delays would be detrimental for other aspects of life’n’all.

    10. Balanceofthemis*

      Mazel Tov! I concurs with those who already commented who recommended waiting until you have an official offer and then let them know you will need those days off. You don’t need to specify what the holidays are, just the dates.

      Personally, I wouldn’t offer to delay my start date, let them come up with that and decide if it works for you.

    11. Bob*

      I would bring it up on your first day. I would also ask about their leave policies.

      Don’t forget that it’s probably illegal for them to say no. You’re not asking for days off to go fishing, you’re asking for a religious observance. That gets special protections.

      If it helps, I’ve had this happen with a few employees. In one case, they took LWOP. In the other case, we let them use leave before they had it. In both cases, it ended up working out.

      1. TheBunny*

        It’s not illegal for them to say no. Religious accommodation doesn’t mean “I have a religion you must accommodate” but rather the company has to consider if that accommodation is an unreasonable hardship.

        If it is they absolutely CAN refuse.

        1. Bob*

          I wrote “probably illegal” not illegal because there are cases where it would be allowed. But these cases are relatively rare. For most jobs there wouldn’t be an undue hardship.

          If it is one of those cases, then the OPs length of tenure would most likely be irrelevant. If it’s an undue hardship, it’s one regardless of whether the employee has the PTO or not with some exceptions that don’t seem to be relevant to this case.

        2. Observer*

          <i.Religious accommodation doesn’t mean “I have a religion you must accommodate” but rather the company has to consider if that accommodation is an unreasonable hardship

          True. But the bar for “unreasonable hardship” is just high enough that in most cases, it would be extremely hard to make the case that it really is a major issue.

    12. Dandylions*

      You don’t have a new job or even an offer yet. Please keep searching in the interim.

      You can ask about accommodating a start date when you get an offer.

    13. Rainy*

      Woot for new job! I think I’d wait until you start negotiating the start date, and then say “by the way, I have some religious observance days coming up–I need to take off X and Y for sure. I would usually take of Z and A-C as well but I understand that that might not be feasible this year. What’s the best way to approach this?”

      The idea is that OF COURSE you will be able to take off days for religious observances even though it’s early in your onboarding/training, so what’s the best way to go about making sure that you can do that.

    14. Observer*

      Normally I would take off all the days that are “Yom Tov” (essentially, major holidays where we don’t do work), but this year that’s six weekdays, which seems like an impossible ask so soon after starting.

      Nope. If they won’t give you the time that’s a HUGE red flag. I know it’s a lot of days. But it is what it is. Also, you can be sure that if you don’t ask for it now, you will *always& be under pressure to not take that time whenever it is in the least bit inconvenient for them.

      When you get the offer, accept it. And THEN tell them that you observe the Jewish Holy Days, and these are the dates they come out this year. Ask them how they want to handle it – start afterwards, unpaid leave, go into negative balance, try to make us some of the time or some combination thereof?

      Do keep in mind that companies do have legal obligation to accommodate genuine religious needs of their employees.

    15. PersonalDays*

      Most companies I’ve worked for have a number of personal days. These are designed to be days that, unlike vacation/normal PTO, don’t need approval. One of the stated uses at most companies is religious holidays and they should cover Rosh Hashannah at a minimum (I’ve never gotten less than two personal days; Ive gotten as many as 5, most places gave 3). I have been using personal days for the high holidays for decades now. Check the benefits when you get the offer and see if that’s the way to go.

      Good luck!

  7. Tree*

    I had been working from home since 2020. At the same time, my anxiety has increased dramatically especially related to noises (typically neighborhood sounds). I’ve been hybrid the past few weeks and I’m starting to feel less anxious. I think working from home wasn’t a good fit for me. Has anyone experienced going back to the office lessening their anxiety or depression?

    1. Lola*

      Yes! I’ve found that going into the office 1x/week has been very helpful for my mood and engagement level at work, even if the office is a ghost town and no one on my team goes in (in-person is voluntary and I’m on a global team). The variety and interactions with people both at the office and out and about downtown add a lot of value to my day and week. I even get a lot of face time with the CEO and EVPs who come occasionally. I do sometimes go long stretches when I don’t go in to the office and I notice my feelings of isolation and listlessness return. Going to a coffee shop doesn’t really do the trick, but the office does. I feel weird admitting it because almost all my colleagues love WFH and balk at the idea of going into the office. The commute still sucks, which makes me appreciate my WFH days more, haha!

      1. Tree*

        I’m going in three times a week now (which is what is required) and thinking about going in five days a week. Coffee shops don’t work for me either and I think I need the forced routine of getting up, dressed and out of the house. I find it hard to self-motivate if I WFH. I also live in a small condo, and would love yo put away the desk I had to shove in the corner of my bedroom.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      The opposite for me. I have to go into the office on Mondays, and my anxiety is so high on that day, and I find my anxiety increasing on my WFH days.

      Currently looking for another WFH job, preferably for a company on the other side of the country, so if they want me to come into the office, they can put my ass on an airplane.

      1. Analyst J*

        I’m having the same problem. I was managing, barely, once a week in office. Now we’re at two days in office I’m really struggling. I have a great manager and live the work I’m doing but it’s not worth the stress.

    3. spcepickle*

      Me! I find it really hard to focus when working for home, even if I do all the things (separate desk / work area, get dressed, keep the same hours). Then I feel bad for not working, try to work more, feel frustrated that I am spending too many hours trying to work, and cycle.
      By choice I go in to the office an average of 4 days a week. I have a better connection with my team, better balance of my working hours, I hear the gossip and the rumors (which as the boss is important), and I get more done.

      For my team it works really well to offer lots of flexibility so people can find the right work from home balance for them. Of my team of 25 only 2 want true 100% work from home, the rest come in at least once a week by choice.

    4. anonlibrarian*

      I hated working from home full-time! Working out of the house brings a lot of stress for me because I’m covid-conscious in a workplace of people who keep coming in sick and not masking, but I don’t know that I could ever go back to working from home. At least not a desk job. It’s too isolating and too monotonous.

    5. Briefly Anon*

      I saw it with my partner, who gets sad and grouchy with fully remote positions. He really needs 2 days a week in person.

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      I’m written the same thing before! I often wonder where the adamant WFH-forever crowd lives because of this! I find it weird when I read these long WFH threads on reddit and not once does anyone mention anything going wrong. I just assume they live in upper middle class ex-urbs, in large houses at the end of longer driveways, with good electricity and internet, and no visible neighbors. Or maybe I just have bad luck

      But the spring and fall are a constant stream of outdoor music, car
      alarms, two neighbors’ car-washing machines, lead blowers, and construction projects. One or two houses gets gut renovated every year, so that’s two months+ of drilling/sawing/banging/large trucks idling. The dumpster trucks are so loud they shake my house. This year saw 4 home construction projects around me and jackhammering up/fixing part of the road near my house

      I definitely went to the office for relief!

      1. Tree*

        I live in a large city and while my neighborhood itself is very quiet, my sensitivity to noise has gone way up (I believe) as a result of being at home too much. It was making me hate where I live and dreading things like neighbors coming home and other normal, everyday noises that come with being in a large city. I realize that this is my issue to solve and others don’t feel the same way, but I was amazed how much of a reduction in baseline anxiety I have felt simply by being back in an office.

        1. Ehh*

          This is really interesting! I haven’t thought about it but subconsciously I’ve gone from a normal open office acceptable noise range to one where I expect my home to be silent covert mission quiet. Any noise disturbances seem HUGE to me now and I’m more anxious about background noise in my meetings where in the past I’d had work calls in office with active fire alarms going off (testing or system malfunctioning) without blinking.

      2. Maotseduck*

        I do live in an upper middle class suburb in a pretty large house with decent space from neighbors and reliable electricity and internet. I could concentrate on work fine, it just did bad things to my mental health. I’m so thankful that I live with people (my aging parents that I support non-monetarily) because alone it would have been so much worse.

        I feel like a lot of WFH evangelicals forget that what is true/good/works for them doesn’t work that way for everyone.

      3. Industry Behemoth*

        Or maybe the WFH die-hards just aren’t mentioning any downsides they encounter, or live with. Similar to posting only one’s best moments on social media.

      4. Seashell*

        I’ve been working from home since 2020 (and before that, I was hybrid), and I live in the suburbs with a fairly short driveway and lots of visible neighbors. The main noise thing is lawn mowers/leaf blowers/snow blowers, and that is loud but lasts maybe 20 minutes at a time. I’m not continuously on the phone or video calls, so it’s usually not a problem for me.

        The only outdoor music I tend to hear is from the Amazon minivans making a delivery, and that’s very brief. Car alarms and house alarms are rare, as are internet problems and electrical blips. I have a generator, so electrical problems are not a long-term issue.

      5. Nightengale*

        I think it’s just the great diversity of people.

        Different kinds of jobs, different kinds of in-person and at-home working conditions, different kinds of bodies and temperaments and neurotypes.

        There just is no one right answer for all jobs and all people.

        I’m a doctor and there are parts of my job that definitely work best in person. I did everything from home during the height of the pandemic and it was better than nothing but certainly not optimal.

        Now I see patients in the office 3 days a week.

        I do telehealth from home one day a week. I occasionally do telehealth from the office and it is much harder. There is often another doctor in the space I am working from. The location of the computer isn’t as good. The lighting isn’t as good.

        I do paperwork and patient care coordination from home one day a week (plus the work I do on weekends, which is a whole separate issue.) I did that even before the pandemic and it is the only way I am able to come even close to keeping up with the high volume of paperwork in my field – 20 hours or more a week of paperwork outside of direct patient care.

        I live in an apartment in a city and there is sometimes noise. The fire alarm was beeping last week (not alarming, but periodic beeping.) The neighbor’s dog barks. Someone above me uses some loud exercise equipment. There is sometimes music and road work.

        On the other hand, there is noise in the office. There have been construction projects above/beside us for months at a time. If the other doctor is in the office, he and his patients are coming in and out.

        It’s also colder in the office and I hate cold. Especially the summers are very cold and I can run a spaceheater but what a waste of electricity when at home I can just – not turn on the air conditioning.

        I also have pain sitting upright in a chair and at home I can sit on the couch in a comfortable position. The food is better at home, for a hot lunch and snacks and also maybe putting soup on for dinner which just needs stirring every so often. It is easier to have never-ending hot tea at home. I can put something on for background noise. I DEFINITELY get more done on a “paperwork” day at home than I would in the office. Especially for reports I have to write which can take an hour or more, there is no contest. There’s no “flow” work feasible for me in my office.

        But someone else in my field who has a different living situation, who may have kids at home, who doesn’t have my cold intolerance and disabilities, might well find doing paperwork in the office much better.

    7. mooncake*

      I was surprised at this myself but yes, going in to an office really helps me keep an even keel with my mental health. Maybe it’s just that it gives me a little more perspective or the change of scenery. Even though the office is fairly empty it helps that it’s right in the heart of a big city, so lots of interesting things to see as I’m commuting and taking lunch!

    8. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I changed jobs from fully remote to fully in person because I realized that working from home was no longer serving my mental health. It was too isolated. Ironically, 2 months later we shut down for COVID. Now I am happily 4 days in person and 1 at home with flex as needed.

    9. Justin*

      I go twice a week and it absolutely helps. I had to stop going last year for office construction needs and I got more anxious again.

      Forced RTO is bad but it’s okay for people to WANT to go sometimes, despite the general feelings here.

    10. VoPo*

      Yes! Moreso depression than anxiety for me. Working from home I developed a lot of bad habits like not getting up to move enough, not actually talking to people I work with (way too much email reliance when a 5 minute phone call would have solved everything), etc.

      I’m currently 5/week in the office, and I love it. I talk to people, I have easier access to my manager and my direct reports, I have my commute as distinct transition points between home and work, etc.

      Most of my friends do the “ugh, I can’t believe you have to go in every day. You should quit and find a remote job.” and I just… don’t agree.

    11. Maotseduck*

      YES!
      I’ve been at my in-person job two years next month and my agoraphobia and anxiety in general are definitely better than when I worked from home during the pandemic. I thought being at home would be the best possible set up for agoraphobia and in my case, I was completely wrong.

    12. engineercantdomath*

      I suffered immensely working from home. I became very isolated. I found it impossible to stay on task, and then felt incredibly shameful about it. My months working from home (and the immediate months proceeding them) were the worst months of my life. I did have a job that I didn’t enjoy and a new serious illness (Long Covid! with daily migraines!). Going back to the office helped MASSIVELY. I was in a one bedroom apartment alone of course which was a huge part of the issue.
      I am back in the office full time and doing much better healthwise. :)

    13. I DK*

      I worked from home for a year and a half in ’20-’21, and going back to the office helped with my depression. being by myself basically 24-7 during the workweek was difficult. You can ask any of my exes, I am a lot to take, even for just me. As far as anxiety, eh, I didn’t notice any, but as for neighborhood noises? I learned that there are way too many people in my neighborhood that can’t unlock their cars without setting off their alarms. smh.

    14. RagingADHD*

      Yes. I am much less down, feel more inclined / able to go out and do other fun things, and can concentrate better because I am away from my favorite distractions.

      I actually sought out a primary onsite role because I felt like I had fallen apart after exclusively WFH for a long time (since well before covid, in fact).

      Fortunately I have flexibility to WFH as needed, with only a couple of blackout days per quarter where onsite is absolutely required.

      It has been a huge improvement for me.

    15. allathian*

      The first time I went back to the office about three years ago, I was as anxious as I always am on travel days, I couldn’t sleep the night before, kept checking and rechecking that I’d packed everything I needed for the day, etc.

      Now I go in about once every two weeks and it’s fine. I’d go in more often if my office wasn’t under construction, the noise from the worksite’s too much. I live in the suburbs in a 5-bedroom house (so my husband and I have home offices on different floors) with fairly large lots in a fairly quiet neighborhood.

    16. LMS manager*

      Yes I’ve had some issues with anxiety/depression, but it’s 1.5 hour commute for me. So I go into a co-working space near my apartment every now and then. It’s $25/day that I pay out of pocket but casual and lots of young entrepreneurs, good energy.

  8. call me wheels*

    so… job search continues… 2 interviews today!

    First I am withdrawing from because I realised the commute + no WFH was just not going to be feasible with my health conditions, but also because I think I would really struggle with the owner. The interviewer really stressed that he is ‘difficult’ to work with, easily frustrated, stuck in his ways, “hates change”, and raises his voice all the time. When I asked if he shouts at people, she really had to think and qualify her answer — I’d much rather hear a ‘no, of course not!’ :’) I know from AAM that some types of dysfunction people can live with and others can’t, but I think I’m definitely in the camp of not being able to cope with that level of frustration and raised voices at work. Even knowing this, I’m finding it surprisingly hard to let the recruiter know I’m withdrawing… I’m not so desperate for a job just yet that I’ll go through with this, but it still feels bad, like I’m throwing away a chance… and this is before even knowing if they even want me for a 2nd round.

    2nd interview I think went okay, for a not ideal job but it does offer hybrid work, pays fine, and you only have to be doing customer service phone stuff half the week and the rest is admin which I like more, so I’m hoping they’ll want me in for the 2nd round.

    Also, I signed up with a temp agency and they said they might be able to start sending me stuff soon so that would be great :) I’m hoping some temp office experience will help my CV and knowing how to sound like I know what I’m doing with commerical roles a bit more.

    Hope everyone else’s searches / weeks in general are going well !

    1. Lisa*

      I think that’s important information for the recruiter to know. “The interviewer told me these things about the manager, which made me realize I would not be a good candidate. I want to make sure you know so that you might be able to help find someone that would fit more with that sort of environment.” Something like that. If it’s internal in the company, they probably already know this, so maybe only share if it’s an external recruiter.

      1. call me wheels*

        Thank you for the advice :) shes an outside recruiter and very nice so yeah I explained the situation and hopefully she will understand

      2. Isabel Archer*

        Oof, I’m so torn on this. On the one hand, bravo to the interviewer for sharing this info about the manager. It’s the kind of information that’s rarely (if ever) shared with job candidates, because let’s be real — NOBODY wants a manager like that. It’s exactly the kind of un-shared info that the excited new employee gradually finds out over their first month or so, and realizes that their dream job is a nightmare, and then they write to AAM.

        OP, I think you did the right thing. I suspect the interviewer shared the negatives about the manager because they’ve a lot of turnover in the role or company, so now they’re just telling candidates right up front that the place is full of bees.

  9. CottonCandyClouds*

    This week, a peer on another team requested a meeting with me. We are both part of leadership on our respective teams. The upshot of our meeting was “yes I know I’m included on the decision making meeting, but you can’t expect me to participate or read the notes if I miss, I want you to follow up with me individually to make sure I got the information”. I was floored, and did not respond as forcefully as I would have liked. Moving forward, does anyone have advice for dealing with these types? The “I can’t be bothered to read my email or participate in a meeting, but I’ll complain after”? Unfortunately it looks like I’ll be working with him for the foreseeable future.

    1. MsM*

      If they don’t really need to be there: “Who on your team should I invite so they can fill you in?”

      If they do: “I’m sorry, that won’t be possible. What times are you available to meet with the group?”

      2. Camellia*

        I really like the first suggestion, just always invite peer and peer’s backup. Then tell peer’s backup that, if they can’t attend, to forward the meeting to peer’s backup backup.

      3. CottonCandyClouds*

        I appreciate this! Someone from his team absolutely needs to be there, but maybe it doesn’t need to be him. He’s been attending meetings, but doesn’t participate and later claims he wasn’t invited (we keep meeting notes with attendee lists, I know he was there). I suspect he doesn’t do well in large meetings, and maybe someone else would be a better choice.

        1. MsM*

          And the lovely thing about having an alternate contact is if that person has tricks for getting his ear/cooperation, you can go to them for help if he’s being stubborn on other stuff.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      So, a peer has decided that you’re going to do the homework? And you have different supervisors?
      I think the answer is a dazed look in your eyes and a suggestion that the notes were distributed so the answer would be there. Because you took your own personal notes that were connected to YOUR to-do list, and maybe wouldn’t have adequate depth of understanding of what their needs are. It sure is too bad that they missed the meeting. Maybe your supervisor would have guidance.
      DO NOT accept any responsibility for their job or they will expect it from you forever.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I don’t even think forceful is the tone you want here – a breezy “I can’t send personalized follow-ups to everyone who misses a meeting, but the notes always get sent out to everyone” is all you need. If you already agreed to this, then maybe after the next meeting forward the notes to him directly with a short note like “as discussed, here are the meeting notes so you know what email to look out for after future meetings.”

      1. Quinalla*

        Yup, if he wants to follow up with you to clarify things or get a sense of the meeting after reading the notes, that’s fine, but it’s not on YOU to follow up with HIM. I’d suggest he send someone else on his team to fill him in if he can’t attend or read the notes and follow up with you if he has questions.

    4. Reba*

      re: responding in the moment, it’s not too late for a follow up email that will serve as documentation of his request and a polite, clear statement that of course you will not be doing that and how the notes are handled.

      I would speak with a trusted ally, it will be useful to know how other people in your workplace see this colleague as you figure out how to work with him.

      1. CottonCandyClouds*

        I did speak with a colleague- her exact words were “Jake? He’s a snake in the grass!” …. So there’s that.

    5. HonorBox*

      I think you could go back to your peer and say something like, “I thought about your request, and we all get the same information sent to us about and after the meetings. If you feel like you need to have someone follow up directly, you’re going to have to send someone from your team if you have to miss a meeting.”

    6. Pay no attention...*

      Are you the one leading the decision making meetings this person is missing, or are you just one of the participants, and he’s selected you to be his personal aide?

      If you are leading, I like MsM’s wording: “Who on your team should I invite so they can fill you in?” or if you really want to, offer to include his boss instead.
      If you are not leading the meetings: “You’ll need to contact Fergus for a copy of his meeting minutes or presentation. I’m not going to assist you on this.”

      2. CottonCandyClouds*

        My team leads and owns the meeting (technically my boss would own the meeting), and I think he came to me because he thinks I’m new. I was recently promoted to this role, but I’ve been with the company for a long time. I do think I’ll go back to my boss and see if there’s someone else from his team we could invite instead, since “Jake” doesn’t seem engaged. Thanks for the advice!

    7. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Out of curiosity, are you a woman? I have had this situation with a man who thought I, a peer, should act as his assistant in this way. He never asked this of any men in the meetings. Kept insisting that I needed to track him down and give him a verbal update on what he’s missed, because reading the notes was “boring” and I “had a nice voice and could make myself useful” if I wanted to. Had to bring his manager into the discussion multiple times.
      It’s his job to be proactive. Not your job to make sure he does his job.

  10. Camellia*

    I just read an article that said, “Quiet quitting didn’t become a movement in the workplace unit 2020.”. But is that really true? Haven’t many people always been doing only what is necessary for their jobs, and we just didn’t hear about it? Most of us work because we need a paycheck, not because we are passionately involved with our work and therefore are always going above-and-beyond. So is quiet quitting really a new phenomenon?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, the term was coined in 2020 but it wasn’t brand-new. We had the term “work to rule” for unionized employees, but no term for individual non-union people because they weren’t publicly talking about it as much.

      1. ecnaseener*

        ETA: your article used the word “movement,” and I actually think that’s fair. People were quiet-quitting before 2020 but it wasn’t a movement, except for in the aforementioned work-to-rule case.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          And then there’s also “sit-down strikes,” where you do just enough less to make it clear you’re unhappy without a full work stoppage.

        2. Agnes Grey*

          It’s a little different from quiet quitting, but I had a coworker who essentially retired in place well before she actually left.

    2. Too Many Tabs Open*

      It was called “work to rule” long before it was called “quiet quitting”, and the older expression is a better descriptor.

    3. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      “Quiet quitting” is not a real thing. Doing no less and no more than what you’re being paid to do is called “working to rule” and it’s supposed to be how working works. But some managers got the idea in their heads that today’s “above and beyond” should be tomorrow’s bare minimum and here we are.

      1. Artificial morning person*

        Now, it’s up to you whether or not you want to just do the bare
        minimum. Well, like Brian, for example, has 37 pieces of flair. And a
        terrific smile.

        2. Isabel Archer*

          “You know what? Yeah, I do want to express myself. I don’t need 37 pieces of flair to do it.”

          Office Space 4eva

      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        The issue with this term and many others is that the dictionary definition and the definition used when it actually is used IRL are too different but related things. Most people using it mean that someone slightly under-performed because they are sick of their job. TBH I wish people would stop pretending to be confused by this, because the term has come up 100s of time since then, and every time I see it in use, there are dozens of comments arguing that its being misused. I think we should accept it’s going to be misused

        1. ampersand*

          So what does the term itself mean? That a person is following the rule (getting their work done) but no more? I’ve ever heard this term, interestingly.

      3. Goldenrod*

        ““Quiet quitting” is not a real thing”

        YES, thank you! +1000. I’ve always resented that fake term. If you do your job and have work/life balance and boundaries, that is just…having a job.

        1. Justin*

          But that’s the problem, people use it for just doing your job, when it’s supposed to mean like actually choosing to not do certain responsibilities so long as you can get away with it.

          1. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

            I thought that “actually choosing to not do certain responsibilities so long as you can get away with it” was “gaming the system,” not “quiet quitting.”

    4. Person from the Resume*

      “Quiet quitting” was not a term that was coined and misused until 2020.

      I do not engage in discussions of “quiet quitting” because it’s a dumb term that very much misunderstands what quitting it. And falsely makes it seem like most people weren’t already just doing their job.

    7. RedinSC*

      I didn’t have a name for it, but when I found out that my same job in a significantly lower cost of living location was paid $20K a near more than I earned (in 2006) you can bet I dialed back my work, a lot.

    8. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “Quiet quitting” has been around forever. It used to be called “coasting.” But I think the term is applied to employees who used to go above and beyond regularly and then dialed it back. I don’t think it’s applied to employees who always did the bare minimum and nothing more.

  11. Tradd*

    Posted last week that I was tired of the BS at current job and was looking to see what was out there. Talked with recruiter I got current job through 3+ years ago. She had a position that is what I currently do, just less responsibility. Had great phone and in person interviews. Job is in person only. Hiring manager told me I was the only applicant who didn’t ask about remote work. Position was in office and posting noted that. The problem is that the salary they were offering would require me to take an almost 30% pay cut as well as have to pay $500/month for my health insurance. Current job covers my insurance. I told them the salary was too little. My retirement savings would go down to very little. I can’t afford that. The salary they were offering was $5K less than I was making when I was laid off four years ago due to Covid.

    1. Van Wilder*

      Yeah, that sounds like a deal breaker to me. That sucks, but keep looking! You never know what’s out there until you look.

      I’ve been in crappy jobs before and I know it’s just exhausting and depressing everyday. Hang in there.

    2. Spero*

      I had a few friends do this during/after college and I remember them saying they didn’t make as much as they expected? The pay was good but food was expensive and a lot of workers spent much of their check on substances. Many of the workers did an opposite season to make ends meet (ex Alaska and Hawaii) and were on SNAP benefits year round plus other benefits when not working, and the benefits ended up being their primary economic stability. I don’t know if this is true for everyone, just their experience!

    3. Kitten*

      If you already have an opportunity a few weeks into the job search you should have a lot more in a few more weeks

    4. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Don’t sell yourself short! Tell the recruiter your salary needs to be equivalent or higher than what you’re making and insurance needs to be included. I get the feeling that a lot of job applicants feel like they need to accept lowball offers in order to remain competitive (I certainly have felt that way in several jobs I’ve had) but now that I’m older I realize that not accepting lower paying jobs can also make you competitive.

      1. Tradd*

        I make well above market average. I have a number I won’t go below if I moved to another job. However, this offer was well below THAT!

        Current job is golden handcuffs.

    5. Isabel Archer*

      Why wouldn’t you expect a job with “less responsibility” to pay less than one with more responsibility? Not saying 30% isn’t a big drop, it definitely is! But it sounds like you expected similar pay to your current role despite knowing the new role would have less responsibility. Maybe I’m missing something.

      And, not exclusive to Tradd, but I don’t think apples-to-apples comparisons of what employers are currently offering vs what was on offer at any point since the pandemic are possible. Both the economy and the the labor market have been all over the map in the past few years.

      1. Tradd*

        This position was exactly what I was doing for years when I got laid off in 2020. To expect me to want to get paid $5K LESS than I was making almost 5 years ago is a bit much.

        The current job has more responsibilities, but other than that’s exactly what I was doing when I was laid off in 2020.

        1. Cheap ass rolling with it*

          You will resent this job offer if you take it. You know what you’re worth, keep looking.

          I was in the same predicament — was unhappy at a job, but stable. I kept looking and eventually found the right fit — without taking a pay cut. (They were willing to match my current salary). You have more flexibility because you’re willing to work for less (as well as I), but find a company that values you and that’s not immediately lowballing you.

      2. Tradd*

        To give you an idea, I make $30K more than I did when I was laid off in 2020. I would be willing to go about $15K lower than I currently make.

        Why I’m making extra now, in addition to current job just paying more, is that I’m the individually licensed customs broker who qualifies current company’s operating permit from US Customs. I answer to Customs for any issues. That is the only difference between what I used to do and job I turned down, in addition to supervising one person.

    6. learnedthehardway*

      You don’t have to take the first thing that comes along – do a proper job search and find a role that really meets all of your needs.

      If offered the role, tell them that you need to be at least lateral on compensation (including benefits costs) to where you are now to make a move. See if they will negotiate.

      However, not only is the compensation lower, but it’s a lower level role, and in-person only. I wouldn’t jump from the frying pan just for this.

      1. Tradd*

        In person isn’t an issue for me. I’m used to being in the office and I don’t mind it. I’m not someone who will only consider WFH.

  12. Emily Elizabeth*

    Would love to hear if anyone has experience or knowledge of seasonal summer work in Alaska! A long time ago when I was in high school, I got to go on a wonderful Alaska cruise with my family and had the best time on all the excursions. At the time I was told by several workers and guides that seasonal tourism gigs are big up there, and I hoped to go up one summer in college but never was able to make it happen. I’m now exploring it more seriously for next summer but am having a hard time finding people’s accounts of what it’s actually like to work up there, recommendations for finding roles, etc, or even knowing if that industry is still as pertinent as it sounded then. If anyone has personal experience or knows of any relevant content (blogs, TikToks, etc), I’m super curious to learn more! If it’s relevant, my background is in education and outdoor recreation, so would be extra curious about guide or tourism focused experiences.

    1. Spero*

      I had a few friends do this during/after college and I remember them saying they didn’t make as much as they expected? The pay was good but food was expensive and a lot of workers spent much of their check on substances. Many of the workers did an opposite season to make ends meet (ex Alaska and Hawaii) and were on SNAP benefits year round plus other benefits when not working, and the benefits ended up being their primary economic stability. I don’t know if this is true for everyone, just their experience!

    3. Ally McBeal*

      “Seasonal work” seems to be a pretty popular search term on r/Alaska (Reddit) – that’s probably a good place to start, as people who comment on those posts frequently leave links or other breadcrumbs you can follow to more info.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I took an Alaskan cruise last year – the shore excursions were fantastic! I would look at individual touring companies – most have websites with career pages or contact info. You can check the excursions page of major cruise line sites to get some names to get started.

    5. Lucy Librarian*

      This is very old information but my mom worked for Grayline in Alaska in the mid 1990s as a driver and tour guide. She’d pick people up from the cruise ships and drive to different locations. It did require a commercial driver’s license for the bus, but I would think there are other jobs. It was with Holland America, so maybe check with the cruise lines first for seasonal opportunities.

    6. Rage*

      I just got back from Alaska (literally, like, on Tuesday)! And one of our tour guides in Skagway told us a lot about what the seasonal work is like up there. I’ll try to highlight here:

      1. Seasonal tourism work companies vary, but the thing that matters is retention. If they had an employee for the season who showed up every day and didn’t lose any customers in the mountains, they are probably going to want them to come back in subsequent years. So they will definitely “sweeten the pot” to get you to commit. The biggest thing, of course, is company-sponsored housing. Housing itself is NUTS up there, incredibly expensive and difficult to obtain; most affordable housing has been bought up by the tourism companies for their employees. You will still pay something for your housing, of course, but it’s minimal. Chris stated that this year he paid $350 per month for his own room in a shared house – and a solo room was his requirement. As a first-year employee, you would probably share a room with another employee – but if they wanted you to return the next year, you might be able to negotiate a solo room.

      2. Some companies are better than others. One of the tour groups in Skagway (I *think* it was “Skagway Tours” that he named) is reported to treat their employees like royalty – and they have about an 80% retention rate from year to year. The average for most other companies is around 20-30%. So their efforts definitely show. I’ll drop the link to their employment page in a follow-up comment.

      3. NOW is the time to reach out about next season, if you are confident you are willing to commit that far in advance. The season in winding down now, it has about another 4 weeks to go, and Chris told us that it isn’t uncommon for him to get back down to the lower 48 and get a call 2 weeks later asking about the next season. So if you want to do this, now is probably a great time to start applying.

      My personal thoughts are that your background in education and outdoor recreation will probably give you a bit of a leg up from your randos who just show up one day. I thoroughly enjoyed Chris’s engaging manner – turns out he had spent about 10 years doing theater/acting work, so that kind of stuff can definitely help. The more you can relate to your guests and get people hooked on what you are saying and doing, the more they will like you, you’ll get more tips, and you will have more leverage with your employer for future seasons.

      I would seriously do it. Alaska is a beautiful place, rich in culture, history, and wildlife, and it’s such a great talking piece for the future. Just think, five years from now you’re interviewing for a job and the interviewer says, “Tell me something about yourself” and you can say “I worked as a seasonal tour guide in Alaska for 4 years.” That’s not something they are going to hear every day.

      I also read an article the other day about a woman who has worked on cruise ships off and on – some of her information is probably relevant as well. If I can find that one, I’ll include the link along with the other one.

      2. Emily Elizabeth*

        Thank you so much for all these specifics, and thanks for the link! Hope you enjoyed your trip! The housing piece definitely seems tricky, and I’m glad to hear the reality of it. Also good to know it’s not too soon to be considering or pursuing it for next year. Thanks!

        1. Rage*

          It was my 2nd trip to Alaska, but this time out the wildlife sightings were disappointing. But it was still a great trip.

    7. Girl So Confusing*

      Oh – I did this for 3 summer seasons so I can speak about it!! The first season I worked for a local company in Ketchikan, 2 other seasons I worked for Holland America-Princess based out of Anchorage (they are owned by Carnival and co-run their operations in Alaska). I absolutely LOVED my experiences there, truly wouldn’t change it for the world and highly recommend. I learned so much about myself, made life-long friends, made memories I will carry with me forever, etc. HOWEVER, I will tell you the pros and cons: cons– housing. Many people end up in crappy employee housing, or living in shared apartments, or less-than-ideal situations. I lived with family in Ketchikan and then a shared apartment with my boyfriend in Anchorage, but I saw the housing drama with my coworkers. So if you’re looking at seasonal work, research the housing situation and pricing before you commit. Another con– cost of living. It is more expensive to live in Alaska, that’s just the truth of it. I have family there still, I visit frequently, and yeah, all the basics cost more. Another con– transportation. All 3 summers I had access to a personal vehicle, but others did not, and while Anchorage had okay public transit, smaller towns don’t. Ketchikan had a great bus system and was very walkable, but some of the seasonal folks lived far out of town in employee housing and off the bus stops, and were dependent on the company transit van to get where they wanted to go. And another con– occasional drama. Like all workplaces, there is drama, but it feels heightened by the fact that in many of these seasonal jobs, you’re with each other more, sometimes living together, and you’re all far from your original homes, so it all feels heightened. I was able to stay out of it with living separately, but I definitely heard about it all. The pros– money, especially in tipped positions. If you play it out correctly, you can save a ton of money. Experiences– truly, I can’t even put it into words. I’ve been on a boat while orcas swam near us. I’ve seen eagles catch salmon out of the ocean. I’ve hiked in Denali and seen grizzlies. I’ve ridden the train through Alaska probably 200+ times, an experience that most people will only do once if they’re lucky. I’ve made lifelong friends from it, got valuable work experience, and made good money. Overall, I would absolutely recommend it. Many folks do it season after season. Just research carefully and look for larger, legitimate companies to work for, be smart about housing, saving, and doing your research.

      1. Rage*

        Oh, yeah, that was the other thing – you can’t just buy and ship anything you want up to Alaska. And food is very expensive.

      2. Emily Elizabeth*

        Thanks SO much for this info and for sharing your experience! Glad to hear the reality of some of the big pros/cons. Also to hear that you’d still recommend it despite the cons! For housing, one potentially huge barrier it seems is that I live with my long-term partner who would be coming with me; he has a full-time remote job where he can live anywhere in the U.S. Do you have any insight into whether any kinds of company housing would allow for a partner not working for the company? Or in this case would we be more on our own to find private housing? Thanks again!

        1. Girl So Confusing*

          Employee housing is often offered as a perk for folks, but not required by the businesses, so if you want to live with your partner, research the places you want to be based out of and look for apartment rentals! Often the employee housing is dorm-style, and I wouldn’t really recommend it unless you’re young and looking for that type of communal living experience. Sometimes employee housing is required by necessity, say, if you’re wanting to be based out of Denali National Park – simply because there is no other housing available. I would HIGHLY recommend looking at Ketchikan, it’s a beautiful little town and often local residents will rent out their ADUs to summer seasonal workers, it’s a perfect mix of cute town with accessible things, with nature, and offers tons of experience tours, like kayaking, fishing, ATV tours, zip lining, etc.

    8. fish processor*

      I worked as a fish processor in Alaska a few years ago. Obviously, fish processing =/= tourism, but a few thoughts:

      – Remember that working in Alaska is not the same as being a tourist in Alaska.
      – Coolworks has a lot of seasonal jobs – start there.
      – The cost of living is very high, especially in places not driveable from Anchorage. Make sure you know if your employer will provide food, housing (what kind?), and 2-way plane tickets.
      – Less glamorous than guiding, but fish processing jobs typically pay $15-20/hr; you may work 20-80 hrs/wk depending on how many fish show up. They also hire seasonal mechanics, clerks, etc.
      – I found my job to be dangerous (and apparently that’s common). It was also very remote so medical care would have been difficult had it been needed. Just something to consider.

      All that being said, I am glad I had the experience of working in Alaska for one summer.

    9. Samwise*

      My sister and her then boyfriend did this back in the 1980s… they made plenty of money, but they lived in a tent all summer and ate very cheap food. My sister has fond (truly!) memories of standing in a truck sorting fish…

    10. BlueberryGirl*

      I worked in the AK Tourism industry my entire college and young adult life (and I like in AK), so some thoughts-

      Some companies are better than others. Ask around. Ask around a lot. There’s lots of wage theft in various forms. (I know a few lawyers who have taken on cases about this for lodges in the state.) Also, a lot of promises that don’t match reality, so I guess I’d just go in being wary.

      Cost of living is high and finding housing can be nearly impossible- some companies help with this, some don’t. Consider not just the pay, but also the cost to get to Alaska, survive up here, and get home. Lastly, if you have medical issues, consider that you might not have the care available in Alaska that you can get elsewhere.

      Lastly, you may not have as much free time or chance to see the state as you might think. I’ve heard that as a complaint from a lot of folks, so just bare it in mind.

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        Thanks so much for sharing! Helpful to know to consider all those factors. Ugh and yes good point as to the huge pro/con of working in tourism, that you don’t always get to be the tourist at all! I know it may be an impossible question without narrowing place/industry, but any companies that you would definitely recommend against or conversely, know to be really great?

  13. my cat is prettier than me*

    My work anxiety has been really bad recently. I was fired from my last job two years ago and I still have some trauma from that and the toxic environment I was in. Should I bring up my anxiety to my boss? He’s very nice and we have a good rapport. I don’t get a lot of feedback other than “thank you.” I honestly just need to hear “You are doing a good job and we’re not firing you.”

      1. Ceanothus*

        A therapist can help a lot with this.

        If the current therapist shortage is a big issue, I’d suggest a dialectic behavioral therapy workbook to sort out sources of anxiety and triggers and coping mechanisms

    2. MsM*

      I get it, but assuming your annual performance reviews are good and there aren’t rumblings of wider company instability, I think you need to work on retraining yourself to assume that not getting a bunch of critical feedback means everything’s fine and you’re trusted.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I agree that there’s work you need to do yourself on this. With the cycle of anxiety, you’re likely to need the same feedback from your boss over and over, which can become a problem over time.

        That said, see if you can request a meeting with your boss to get some specific feedback. I had an entry level employee request this of me about eight months in, as something outside of our standard performance metrics. I thought I had been giving them feedback all along and I was, but having this scheduled meeting where we could group some themes together, I could reiterate baseline expectations and help them to see where their performance on several metrics fit along a continuum made a big difference. It also helped their anxiety because they were internally comparing themself to their more senior colleagues in ways that were pretty damaging to their ego, and I hadn’t realized how bad it was. Hearing from me that my expectations for them were set at entry level, with some examples of what that looks like and why it might look different than a colleague in the same role but with 15 years experience, really helped to get us all on the same page. I could also help them chart a path forward so they had a better sense of what growth looks like to me in terms of job performance.

        This isn’t a move you can pull over and over again, but it’s reasonable if you’re really stressed out to say to your boss, “hey, can we set aside some time to touch base so I can get a little more specific feedback on my performance? I want to make sure we’re on the same page and a few examples from your end would be helpful to me.” Any reasonable manager will make that happen.

    3. pally*

      Personally, I wouldn’t bring up the anxiety aspect.
      However, you can ask your boss to provide you with more feedback about your work. Maybe indicate that you’d like to know better what he values about your work. Perhaps there are ways to make your great work even better. Won’t know unless you ask.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Maybe try working with an outside support person/therapist first?

      Ideally you’d get to a place where you could develop your own list of accomplishments for the last year (or six months or whatever), and maybe things you’re not as confident about, and then schedule a meeting with your boss to say “gee, now that I’m not a newbie in the job, I’m taking stock of what I’m doing, and I’d love your feedback about whether my perceptions are in alignment with yours. Could we set a time to talk about my list?”

      This way there’s specific things to talk about, and by setting the agenda yourself, you can make sure that the right things are covered. It also doesn’t put everything in the probably painfully stupid format of a typical official performance review.

      I suspect even just building the list should help you build some confidence.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I’ve been in therapy/on medication my whole life, but nothing has ever been able to get rid of my work/school performance anxiety. I just don’t see any options other than talking to my boss.

        1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

          I genuinely mean this with kindness, but the option other than talking with your boss is … sitting with the discomfort. That isn’t easy at all, and I still support what I and others have suggested about asking for a meeting to get some more specific feedback. But I would like to push back on the framing of this as “an external person is what will relieve my anxiety” because … that’s not how it works. What you need to do is try to get a little more data and see how that can inform how YOU approach work going forward.

          1. Kay*

            This OP. And I say this with much kindness. It is not your bosses responsibility to manage your anxiety, it is yours.

          2. WellRed*

            Yes, remember the letter where the OP had anxiety and it led them to seeking reassurances from a coworker by stalking them. This is obviously different but the thought pattern is not so different.

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Can you have this conversation without mentioning the anxiety, though? Because, as you know, that disclosure comes with risks. Only you can decide if the risks in your specific situation are worth it.

          As others have said, you could frame it as wanting to make sure that things are going well and/or to have your boss flag one or two domains where he’d like to see you improve.

        3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

          “I don’t see any other option” is anxiety brain misleading you … all-or-nothing, black-and-white, no-choice, can’t-cope kind of thinking.

          In reality, there are always options; they’re just varying degrees of appealing, easy, accessible, or useful.

          This thread has suggested a few: talk to a/your therapist; do self-help work about anxiety (the Anxiety and Phobia Workbook is quite good); make a list of your work accomplishments and things you want feedback on; ask your boss for specific feedback without mentioning anxiety; sit with the discomfort of uncertainty without trying to make it go away, whether or not you also take some of those other actions.

          Therapy and medication isn’t expected to get rid of anxiety. Effective therapy will teach the client to recognize anxiety’s influence (such as how it distorts thinking), and cope , compensate or counteract, and reduce its detrimental effects to allow for a good quality of life.

          If you’ve been under the impression that anything is going to get rid of your anxiety, especially something that comes from outside you like reassurance… you might want to talk to your therapist about that, too.

          Wishing you fortitude and resilience. Anxiety is a pain.

    5. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Can you request a feedback meeting with your boss? I wouldn’t share the anxiety but you could ask for more feedback.

    6. ecnaseener*

      I wouldn’t frame it as anxiety, but you can certainly ask for big-picture feedback on how you’re doing.

      Just, keep in mind that you’ll be inviting actual feedback in this scenario, so it may not be limited to “everything’s peachy.”

    7. Educator*

      If my employee asked me for more feedback, I would be delighted. Especially if they framed it in terms of wanting to know, from my perspective, what was going well and what areas they could improve on. But they would need to not panic about critical feedback–we all have things we can work on, and that is normal and good and does not mean we are about to be fired. Are you in a place where you can react calmly to constructive criticism? If not, I would talk this through with a mental health professional first.

      On the other hand, if my employee told me about their anxiety and asked for my help in managing it, I would feel like that was way above my pay grade and direct them to our EAP instead. So again, figure out the mental health stuff with someone who knows how to do that.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        Strangely, I am in a place where I could calmly take constructive criticism. I think framing it as requesting general feedback is probably my best bet.

        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          This makes sense to me. If you were in a situation where there was no feedback and no warning before terrible things happened, it makes sense that being in another situation where there’s no feedback would be unsettling. It’s not the feedback, it’s the not knowing where you stand. And the fact that you can’t change anything if you don’t know what anyone wants you to change, meaning you have no real control over anything.

          I think this approach makes sense. Especially if you’re asking because you want to be sure that you’re performing well, improving, and your boss is happy.

    8. Alex*

      No, definitely not. It isn’t your boss’s job to manage your anxiety.

      If you haven’t had a performance review, ask about the company’s routine performance review cycle, and if they don’t have one, ask if you can take some time with your boss to go over your performance thus far.

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      Bring the trauma and the emotional issues up with a therapist. Do, however, bring up the need for feedback with your boss. Do you have 1:1s regularly? You could say something like “I’d love it if during our 1:1s we could set aside some time for feedback on the work I’ve completed lately. I’d love to hear where I can improve and what things you think are working really well, so I can continue to do those or expand on them.”

    10. Zephy*

      I empathize, and I also offer hope that there IS a way to ask for this without disclosing personal MH info.

      My company also generally has a culture of critical feedback only – if I execute my job flawlessly, I drop my files into the void and never hear another word about them. I only hear from anyone if I screw something up. I mentioned this to my boss when he started in his role (internal promotion, we used to be peers) – he’s been with the company longer than I have and agreed that it’s not a great feedback setup. To his credit he has been vocal about offering praise when we are actually doing good jobs (individually and as a team), not just admonishment for things we’re messing up. I think the words I used were along the lines of “I definitely want to know when I have made errors so that I can correct them, but if that’s ALL I hear about, it’s much harder to notice the silence when I do a good job. I don’t need a trophy or a parade for doing my job, just, it’s nice to hear about it explicitly when things are going well, too.”

    11. learnedthehardway*

      Deal with your anxiety with your therapist.
      That said, you can quite legitimately ask your manager to review your performance with you and provide feedback. Ask for a meeting and let him know that you want to know what you’re doing well, where you need to improve, etc.

  14. Van Wilder*

    Help me figure out my notice date!

    My new start date is 10/28. I went back and read my Manager agreement with my current company. I may terminate at any time with one month’s notice. However, the company has the right to terminate immediately in lieu of notice, with no further pay.

    AKA, if I give notice, they may or may not walk me out immediately and I’d be without a paycheck for a month, which I can’t afford. I am going to a competitor, so it is likely that they would like me to leave immediately or maybe give me a couple days / a week to wrap up.

    I’ve tried to get in touch with someone else that recently left for this same competitor and find out if they paid him for the notice that he offered, but I haven’t heard back.

    I want to maintain good relationships and my reputation. I’d like to at least offer some sort of notice. But I know Alison would say that when they threaten people’s livelihood in response to notice, they forfeit expectation of receiving notice.

    But I don’t know that they WILL make me leave without pay. The people I work with are nice and not vindictive or anything. But what if the decision comes from company policy?? I just don’t KNOW.

    I’m thinking to either offer two weeks’ notice on 10/14 or maybe on 10/18? (The 10/18 would be a bluff.) I could maybe afford to go one week without pay, although I’d rather not.

    1. Van Wilder*

      This is related to my job search that I had asked about in June? I was trying to leave my job before busy season. I actually got one company that was willing to expedite the process for me but the other two were slow, so I asked the first company to slow down so I could compare.

      As many predicted, the process was slow and I’m now leaving after busy season, which I feel good about because I’ll get to leave on a positive note (notice issues withstanding.) Although I can’t wait to get to my new job and new salary.

    2. HonorBox*

      I don’t love the imbalance here. You’re expected to give a month’s notice, but they can walk you with no pay at any moment?

      Is there anything in your contract/agreement that outlines any sort of penalty if you don’t give the appropriate notice? If not, I think I’d give 2 weeks.

      1. HonorBox*

        Also is there any way to talk to your new employer about starting earlier IF your current company has you leave immediately?

        1. HonorBox*

          Replying to both of your comments here…

          1. If you ask and they’re willing to bring you on sooner, should your current employer walk you out, go with that…

          2. I appreciate wanting to take the high road, because that’s where I usually land too. That said, if there’s no way for an adjustment to your start date with your new employer, give two weeks. Your present employer doesn’t have to know that you have an offer in hand and a start date this far out. They’ll know your new start date when you tell them.

          Sure it is a bit of a lie by omission. But given the imbalance between you needing to give a month and them being able to terminate immediately, I have to imagine others have done something similar in the past.

      3. PrettyStandard*

        That’s pretty standard for the US, for what it’s worth. In those cases where I’ve had a contract I’ve had to negotiate to require the company to give me any notice. I’ve sometimes also had to negotiate having the right to give notice at all (I will not sign a contract that won’t let me give notice and it’s taken threatening to walk – which I would have done – to get the right to give notice added at all in a few cases).

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      If you give proper 1 month notice, and they walk you out immediately, can you move up your start date at the new job? I’m pro giving the notice in your contract because it keeps you from burning a bridge (she quit without proper notice!). I’d also wonder if even if they walk you immediately they might keep the pay if they’re trying to maintain a positive relationship with you. Also look at your PTO payout, maybe you will get some unexpected money back?

        1. Ama*

          Double check what state laws you have just to be sure – IL just added (beginning of 2024)to its vacation payout law that employers that offer unlimited PTO have to pay out based on the average amount of PTO an employee has taken over the last few years.

        2. Bike Walk Barb*

          Oh, then you can totally give four weeks’ notice: two weeks that you work, and two weeks of PTO!

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d try to chat with someone who left from a comparable position for a comparable reason and see if they paid out the time if they sent them home after the employee gave notice.

      A company may have the right to terminate immediately without notice, but if it’s not for misconduct, the staff member might be able to collect unemployment benefits in the gap if they offered to work that period.

      If your current employer has a habit of kicking people to the curb and not paying, then I’d give notice on 10/14 with last day 10/25, because that’s the standard response, and be prepared to eat ramen for a couple of weeks or maybe check in with the new folks and see if they can start you earlier.

      1. Van Wilder*

        New York. I don’t see anything illegal. I could probably apply for unemployment for a couple weeks but that wouldn’t keep my lights on.

        1. M2*

          Try and find people who left and talk with them. I feel like most times you hear or know if you get walked out.

          My partner worked at a company and it was known the day you gave notice you were walked out. It’s just how it was done but they paid out your vacation leave up to certain days and paid your health insurance through that month.

          I would try and give your months notice or at least 2 weeks. If you can’t find out another employee ask the new organization if they can move up your start date if needed. Many places will although I would highly recommend taking a week off in between jobs if you can!

          If someone didn’t give proper notice and I was called for a reference I would tell the checker that no matter how good an employee was as I think it’s important for a hiring manager to know. If someone had to go earlier for some kind of medical or emergency situation I would totally understand and it wouldn’t be an issue but I think giving notice is important not to burn that bridge.

        2. Yes And*

          Hi, fellow New Yorker here. NY unemployment also takes 4-6 weeks to process claims. So if you’re dependent on regular inflows of cash to pay your bills, you really can’t rely on unemployment for this kind of short-term gap. (Also, I’m not sure that the situation you’re contemplating falls within what UI is meant to cover. NY enforcement is very pro-employee right now, so you could file anyway, but if the employer disputes it you might find yourself putting in a lot of time and effort for two weeks’ reduced salary that you wouldn’t actually receive for a couple of months.)

        3. Reba*

          IANAL but employment agreements usually do not negate at-will employment. There is no reciprocity in the agreement — they can at-will fire you, but you can’t at-will quit on them. Unless there are any penalty provisions in the agreement, what are they going to do when you give “too little” notice, fire you?

        4. Miette*

          I’d give them two weeks and leave it at that. If pressed about why not the month they “require”, cite the fact they can walk you at any moment without any assurance (or past evidence) of paying out the notice. You don’t really owe them anything beyond the two weeks, “manager agreement” or not.

    6. Rick Tq*

      Your best bet is to see if your new employer can start you two weeks early if needed. Second best was to have enough money put by to cover your expenses for a normal two week notice period.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      What they want and what they offer don’t line up, so go with the normal 2 weeks of 10/14, or maybe even the 10/18. That gives you time to hear back from the other person who went to the competitor.

      If they wanted 1 months’ notice, they’d make it reciprocal, and they don’t, so what they want is immaterial. They don’t get to have it both ways at your expense.

    8. allx*

      Double check that you are reading your contract correctly. The “in lieu of” language generally means “as a substitute for” which suggests that there should be something else instead of you serving/being paid during the notice period. The “no further pay” language might not be related to zero notice, but rather have to do with things like severance pay or payout of PTO etc. If the contract is the way you read it, i.e., you have to give a month’s notice but they can kick you out right away without you working the notice period (which is sucky and thank goodness you are leaving), and if there is no penalty for giving less notice, then give as little notice as you want or feel you need to to transition the work.

    9. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Could you ask your new employer if you could move the date up if you are asked to leave early?

    10. anotherfan*

      I think you have to take the fact you’re leaving for a competitor absolutely into account here. My old biz, they’d let you work out your notice if you were just moving to a new job, but as soon as it was learned it was our major competition, you were walked out. YMMV.

    11. kalli*

      “terminate immediately in lieu of notice with no further pay” is really weird phrasing.

      Normally when you give notice and they make that your last day, you get paid in lieu of notice. So if you gave 4 weeks notice and they didn’t want you to work that, they’d pay you 4 weeks instead.

      However, it’s important to note that when an agreement lists a different way each party may end the agreement, they’re generally exclusive, i.e. if you give 4 weeks notice, that shouldn’t happen at the same time as they can terminate without notice (at will or otherwise), although as with any agreement, you can discuss and agree to an alternative solution. It may be worth reviewing again exactly what the relevant document says on these points before deciding on your approach, or getting an initial consult with an employment lawyer to get an informed take on how you should interpret them; additionally they can assess any non-compete or restraint of trade clause in case it’s still relevant given what happened to that statute, and ensure your agreement at your new employer is solid.

      1. Van Wilder*

        Good points, you and allx (above.) I may not have gotten the phrasing exactly right but I thought I captured it. I should check with a lawyer to make sure I’m interpreting it right.

      2. NotNormal*

        That’s not normal. I’ve never gotten paid out my notice period if they walk me out or worked for a company that did that for others or had friends who got that time paid – you get paid for what you work.

  15. 888 Pocomo*

    I would love for everyone to share concrete ways in which they have been able to put Alison’s advice into action.

    I will start:

    * I was able to advocate for getting a pay increase due to the level of responsibilities I had taken on. I had the right language and mindset, and my request was not only granted, but it was increased over what I asked for! I would never have had the courage to do it before I started reading Ask A Manager.

    * A quarterly meeting of which I am an integral part is going to be held at a shooting range to do some trap shooting. I don’t shoot, and I really have no desire to partake. So I suggested doing something more inclusive. It remains to be seen whether that will happen or not, but it wouldn’t have occurred to me to even ask before.

    * My direct boss said something to me the other day that was mean-spirited. I called him out on it and asked that he not use that particular term again. When he said he was “only joking,” I responded that I didn’t think it was funny, and I’d prefer he didn’t do it again. He sulked the rest of the day but seems to have recovered. ‍♀️

    I am *not* new to the workforce, and the things I mentioned above were not “done” when I first entered the workforce. So I am very appreciative of everything I’ve learned here, and will continue to learn.

    1. Van Wilder*

      * I wrote AMAZING cover letters and thank you emails during my recent job search. I honestly don’t think anybody read my cover letter but I’m sure my thank you emails set me apart.

      *My babysitter was once doing something I didn’t like and I felt so awkward bringing it up but I told myself “breezy and matter-of-fact” and I survived the awkward conversation.

      *When naming my requested pay range in my recent job, I named the number I was looking for (still sounds ridiculously high to me) and then just stopped talking, instead of qualifying and explaining. They came up $5k short of my target, I asked for the additional $5k, and they gave it to me.

      2. popcorn passing*

        Yeah, thanks to Alison’s advice, I wrote a smashing cover letter that’s been complimented a couple times :)

    2. Cookies for Breakfast*

      When I started job hunting in 2021, I had been at the same workplace for 7 years. I had been promoted internally a few times, and even though one of those jobs involved a formal application process, the cover letter was addressed to managers who knew me and my work very well. On top of that, I was looking for an industry change, and needed to make a big deal of my transferable skills (which, having burned out spectacularly at my old job, I wasn’t even sure I had at all). I found the idea of writing brand new cover letters and sending them into the black holes of online application systems very daunting.

      The great cover letter examples Alison posted a few times were exactly what I needed at that time. I took bits and pieces of language from each, added my own work experience and interests, and once I started using that format consistently, the majority of my applications led to at least first-round interviews (even for roles a step up from my level). Thank you, Alison, for the massive help to this commenter who would rather watch paint dry for 10 hours than write a single cover letter ever!

    3. Watry*

      I have used several AAM scripts (including one for when a coworker was being pretty awful about the WFH arrangement I had at the time) and my last interview used about half the content of the free interview guide.

    4. call me wheels*

      I use AAM advice all the time! Some big ones:

      – when asked to take on more responsibility in a role, I spoke honestly to my manager about my concerns with the workload increasing (I was recovering from surgery at the time) and managed to secure a payrise and a schedule that wasn’t too overwhelming
      – I ended a recent interview early as soon as it became clear the role wasn’t right for me (like it was totally incompatible with my disability, I definitely couldn’t have done it)
      – I was able to avoid putting an exact number on salary when asked while still stating that I thought my experience made me fair for the higher range, which they agreed with. (Didnt get the job but I was proud of how I handled it)

      1. Beka Cooper*

        Ooh, I left an interview too! I’d applied for a job with my county that sounded from the description like it would be working in records and data entry type stuff, similar to what I’d been doing in a previous job. I got there and they handed me an info sheet to read over while I waited, and it turned out it was a front-facing customer service job with high likelihood of dealing with very upset, angry people pretty often. One of the questions was about de-escalation techniques. I am entirely unsuited for this type of job, so I gave the receptionist the paper back and left.

        I did send a followup email to the scheduler, and she apologized for how generic the job description was. I guess they’re forced to use certain templates and not stray too much from the established descriptions.

    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      * I’ve written some great cover letters, one of which my previous managers were still talking about 2 years after I’d been working there
      * I’ve gotten much better about just saying, “I have an appt” or something very non-specific instead of getting into details about why I might be out for a few hours
      * Negotiated higher pay at a couple of jobs
      * In my most recent job search, I did not apply for jobs that were less than $20k more than what I’d been making; I’ve learned through AAM and her recommendations on checking salaries for your field, etc., that I was being massively underpaid at the job I was at and I found a job that pays $30k more than what I was making

    6. Morning Reader*

      The last job I had, someone who interviewed me said that I had an outstanding cover letter. I believe I owe that to AAM’s guidance.

      I’m retired now but I think I’m better at boundaries these days, and often find myself using the phrase, “will that work for you?” when suggesting a course of action with friends. Not usually for fun activities but, for example, cat sitting arrangements. “Ok I can come every day around noon, will that work for you?” (I have a tendency to blather on and not check for agreement so this phrase, or similar, is useful.) otherwise I’d be like “alrighty, I’ll come at noon, bye!” And not be sure they even heard me or needed something slightly different, or even understood exactly what I meant.

    7. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      These are so great! The things that have changed the most for me since reading AAM are broader in scope but still game changers

      * I am more adept at tailoring messages to the individual and really practice the art of meeting people where they are at than trying one-size-fits-all approaches

      * I’m better at moving to nip problems in the bud rather than avoiding until they become bigger concerns

      * I think about team performance as something that requires diversity in skills and personalities among the group rather than falling into the “just like me” trap

      * The hardest but best skill for me to develop has been assuming the best of others rather than jumping to conclusions about their motivations. In almost every case, sometimes after being reminded to assume the best by a friend or trusted colleague, it’s been the case that there was a misunderstanding, or that someone was acting in good faith and a bad outcome happened for understandable reasons. It’s so hard to do but it makes a huge difference in having good workplace relationships.

    8. Isabel Archer*

      Amazing thread suggestion. Love all the replies so far. (Also, “he sulked for the rest of the day but seems to have recovered” – snort!)

    9. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I retired from full-time work at the end of 2021 and am now working two days a week. I channel Alison every time I say “no” to the frequent requests to add days to my schedule. Yup. they are really short-handed. That is not my fault and not my problem to solve.

      About a year before I retired, I took on some additional administrative and educational responsibilities. I was given admin time to do the work and then told that my productivity expectations would remain the same. I pushed back, firmly and calmly, and had the “In that case, I can do x and y but not z, so let me know what the priorities are.” There was no additional money for the added work and I was really the only person qualified to do it. After some back-and-forth and grumbling from my boss about team players, they reduced my productivity goals.

    10. Beka Cooper*

      I made myself a list of questions to ask during interviews for my current job, and I got comments from the hiring manager along the lines of, “Very good question.” I also got thoughtful answers. If I hadn’t prepared questions ahead of time, I would not have been able to think of any on the spot, because that’s not how my brain works. I was able to use them for the initial interview, a section of the interview where I met some of the team in the office, and in the final part of the interview with the hiring manager.

      1. Lucy*

        I did this too, just today in an interview! I think Allison’s resume and cover letter advice got me the interview in the first place, especially since it’s a stretch role.

        More broadly, I am taking specific actions to switch to a better paying field. It’s hard to contemplate leaving the rewarding but low paying, burnout-inducing field I’ve worked in for over a decade, and I’m not I’d be making the moves without having read AAM for the past several years.

    11. illuminate*

      I’m coming up on five years in my first professional job, and it’s helped so much to read this blog. I have a coworker who can be a grumpy old codger but likes me well enough, and I’ve managed to maintain a warm and professional relationship with her while holding onto my boundaries like “no politics at work”. I did talk to my manager about her behavior with a vendor once, but I tried to focus on the facts, and he was very receptive and her behavior changed. Wins all around!

    12. Trekker*

      I was overpaid by well over a thousand dollars at one of my last jobs. This had never happened to me! I found Alison’s advice on what to do if you are overpaid and felt better that I was taking the right steps to do my part to resolve the issue.

  16. Alex123*

    Hoping for advice! I’ve been job searching this summer, and the process for one role I’m particularly interested in has been moving quickly. They checked my references this week (I don’t have clarity on how many finalists there are at this point), so it’s too soon to follow up…except I’ll be traveling next week, and there are a few days I won’t be reachable. Is it worth reaching out to the contact to let them know I may be slow to respond, or is that too pushy?

    2. my cat is prettier than me*

      I don’t think it’s too pushy. I’m the point of contact for candidates in the process of interviewing and I would actually appreciate the update.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, I think that’s fine. It’s not pushy if you’re not asking for anything, just giving a heads up.

    4. HonorBox*

      I think this is actually really helpful in fact. You’re giving some info, not asking for any sort of updates. Just providing some context for why you might not be able to respond. If I got that call from you, I’d be extremely appreciative rather than not know why you hadn’t responded quickly.

    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      I’ve never done hiring, so take this with a grain of salt. I’d consider this a sign of your conscientiousness to flag that you’ll be unreachable on specific dates. Essentially, you’re letting them know information that may be useful for them in figuring out timelines for stuff.

    6. Our Business Is Rejoicing*

      I had my final interview for the position I now have two days before a road trip to New York. I’d communicated with them throughout the process as to what my schedule was and that I might not be immediately available if they called. As it was, they called with the job offer when I was in a mountainous area of NY State, and it went to voice mail. They also followed up with an email, which I got before I was able to retrieve the voice mail once I reached my destination. I think that’s the key–establish with them when you may not be available upfront. A reasonable employer will understand and respect that.

    7. Bike Walk Barb*

      I’d agree about letting them know. And are you totally unreachable or would one mechanism work where another one doesn’t? As in, you’ll be in a different time zone with unreliable cell service but hope to be able to get email reliably, or anything along those lines. If so, you could give them that kind of information. “I’ll be traveling with limited access to cell service Sept. X-Y. I expect to be able to check my email on Sept. Z.” Something to tell them which medium has best chance of reaching you. And reiterate your interest so they know silence isn’t equivalent to disinterest.

  17. Lizard*

    I am a PhD student in a STEM field, and I am starting to think more seriously about my post-graduation career (still a couple of years away). I have always planned to go into academia, but I’d like to do some introspection about whether it’s the right path for me.

    So, for people that are in academia (especially leading a lab), what are some character traits or soft skills that you think have made you successful in your job? Answers that I’ve gotten so far include: an ability to see the big picture and not get stuck in the weeds, an intrinsic sense of urgency, flexibility, and good networking.

    And for people in both academia and industry, what do you like and dislike about your role? And what did you consider when making your decision?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Academia and industry aren’t the only options – consider government! I work with a number of PhD. scientists who make and/or implement policy related to their fields. And jobs run the gamut from needing big picture thinkers to nuts and bolts implementers. I’m federal, so point you to USA jobs – Congress has a separate hiring system, check there as well. But don’t ignore opportunities at the State level. (Or international – depending on your field there is the World Health Organization, International Atomic Energy Agency, Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, etc.)

      1. Anon Just for This*

        Oh hi, it’s me! Though my PhD is in social science (I’d say it’s part of STEM, but other people may want to fight me on that). And I always knew I wanted to go applied, rather than stay in academia, even though I’ve started to miss it recently.

        I’ve been in government for 7 years now, doing policy work, project management, and now, research and statistical analysis. It is nice to see that my work can lead to actual change that makes a difference for people. And I care deeply about the topic areas I get to work on. At the staff level, I’ve generally had pretty good work/life balance. A little OT during rush periods, but with time off in lieu. But that’s not the case across our public service. Some areas are known for being kinda awful. And leadership positions basically always require way more than 9-5.

        The big downsides are that you are beholden to politicians (though I’m in a country that has a model of the public service that doesn’t involve big staffing changes after a change in who’s in power). So decisions are going to be influenced by political considerations and the ideological bent of the people in charge. But, the fact of the matter is that nobody elected me. The public elected a government and my job is to give them my best advice and then we are to implement what they direct.

        There also is a lot less autonomy than in academia, though that’s also true in the private sector. There are processes and a real hierarchy. And rules about who you can talk to via official channels. The bureaucracy can be challenging to navigate and tends to be very risk-averse, unless you have a leader who is willing to push to get things done.

    3. WeirdChemist*

      I am a fairly recent STEM PhD grad who did not go into academia, but I have several friends who did. Here are some of my thoughts on that transition:

      -I think the answers you’ve gotten so far are pretty accurate
      -The skill sets you have developed as a grad student/post doc lab researcher are quite different than being a prof in charge of a lab. You are presumably pretty good at lab work now, and in the first year or so of starting your own lab you will likely be in there getting stuff started, but that will taper off until your entire job is pretty much desk-based. Your biggest job will become managing people. Very different skills!
      -Emphasize lab safety! Don’t be that person who pressures your students to put their heath/safety on the line in the name of getting results. This was my favorite aspect of my PI in grad school! (He was otherwise pretty terrible in people managing, as discussed above)
      -Don’t try to be too buddy-buddy with your students when you first start up your lab. The instinct might be there because at first your students will probably only be a few years younger than you and you’ll still be in a bit of a “grad school” mind set like they are. I had a friend who was in the first cohort of their PI’s lab and he came out of the gate too far into the “think of me as your friend/coworker, not your boss!” And then when he eventually had to draw better boundaries it was awkward and uncomfortable for everyone
      -Overall, be willing to be open to the fact that your students will have different backgrounds, experiences, etc than you have had. This difference will increase as the age gap between you and your students increases because how the world works will continue to change.

      Ultimately, I chose to avoid academia because of work-life balance issues. I was having severe anxiety problems that were being exacerbated by midnight emails and pressure to work weekends.

      Good luck in your ultimate job search!

    4. Daisy*

      Probably not the answer you’re hoping for, but the thing which made the single most significant difference in my ability to sustain an academic career was my ability to recover after incidents of gender discrimination and sexual harassment.

      Every year, no matter which institution I was at, I would find myself in a room with someone who was making slimy comments at me, was touchy/grabby, would corner me in a hall while drunk, or, what I thought was mentorship would turn out to really be someone who was using me as their fake wife/girlfriend/therapist, and would withdraw their professional support once it became clear that I wouldn’t gratify them in this way.

      The more senior colleagues I turned to for help (male or female) wouldn’t believe me or had no useful suggestions, reporting the perpetrators through official channels went into a black hole, programs designed to keep disadvantaged groups in academics wouldn’t touch me– all of my time was spent dealing with the fallout of these incidents, which tied up any energy I might have had for diversity-increasing academic service, and they were merely looking for success stories to brag about on their institution’s page. Academia runs on personal connections, and eventually those became so thin for me (due to losing the clout and help of the sexual harassers, their enablers, and also the useless toilet paper people for whom my misfortunes made them feel so bad they no longer wanted to associate with me), that eventually there was no way forward.

      I’m trying to make the jump to industry, but I’m too late into my career for this to be an easy jump.

      1. Anon Just for This*

        That all sucks and I’m sorry you had to deal with it. Sadly – and this is not news to you – academia as a whole has done a terrible job at holding people accountable, and often enables their abuse.

    5. KenDoll*

      This may seem obvious, but a passion for the work. I am an instructor and I know that I would not have enjoyed running a lab because every time I interviewed I dreaded taking about my research ideas. I had them! But I just wasn’t so enthralled with them that I was going to be willing to give so much of my time and energy to it. I am, however, passionate about students. I love teaching and mentoring. So traits that are needed for my instructor job would be organization and time management, patience and empathy for my students, and communication skills. I would think most of that would be necessary for running a lab as well, with tenacity and confidence probably being extra important!

      1. Anon Just for This*

        Whereas I’m the opposite! I really enjoyed the research aspects, but had no interest in teaching. And I figured if I wasn’t interested in teaching (and, by extension, probably wouldn’t be great at it), a faculty position wasn’t a good move.

        Interestingly, in my field, there has started to be more teaching-track tenured faculty positions. So people who love teaching can do it, with job security, but without the requirement to run a research lab or publish a bunch.

    6. Nesprin*

      Oooh boy this could be a novel, not a few hundred word internet post. Basically, positions vary a ton in both industry and academia (and in non-university research institutes, where I work). No matter what you’ll be managing people, teaching, and making sure the lights stay on- but needed characteristics will matter a lot if you’re going to be at a teaching college, where the ability to involve undergrads in research is going to be paramount vs. at a R01 university, where grant funding and major research papers are almost the only priorities.

      If you’re planning to start a lab, make sure you like being the person to set research directions (and being responsible when things go wrong), vs. wanting to contribute to a larger program that someone else is on the hook for.

      The best advice I can give you is to try out different things as much as possible- take a summer and intern at a company or adjunct at a small college and see if you like it. Most universities have a list of people who’ve volunteered for career fit interviews- track down the list and talk to alums at different places and see if what they say about their work sounds like you.

    7. Dandylions*

      The best thing you can do is get working experience outside of Academia to see what you think.

      In my industry, pharma, we have co-ops that are geared at post-grad students. Try some rotations. It’s the only way to know.

      As someone who was certain she was going to work in Academia, between the shit pay and sexual harassment I am so glad to be in the private sector.

    8. Afac*

      I have been working in academia for 10+ years as a STEM faculty. There are so many considerations in the academia vs. industry comparisons, and both have their pain points. A few things to think about:

      How comfortable are you in a ‘middle management’ role? That’s essentially what you are. You manage your students’ work, and may have no ability to ‘fire’ them. Other people manage you, both directly and indirectly, and you may have to ‘manage up’. There will be rules that seem arbitrary to you that are critically important to others. There will be things important to you that others will not consider important. Can you be an effective communicator and mentor? Can you work within (sometimes ridiculous) constraints and hierarchies?

      Do you like writing? You’ll probably spend more time writing than anything else. Proposals, reports, emails, papers, summaries, instructions, syllabi, SOPs, and on and on. If it’s not writing, it’s doing budgets.

      Academia, especially tenure-track academia, is all about products. Number of papers, number of proposals, number of students, number of committees. Numerical ratings for teaching, rankings for citations. Amount of dollars in grants and funding. Find out what typical expectations are for the universities and departments you would like to be employed by. Can you meet the expectations? Can you get enough funding so that you can meet the expectations? Can you meet the expectations and still have the work-life balance that you want?

      Don’t get me wrong; I like what I do and I’m not interested in changing jobs. But usually where people get stuck is not because they’re bad at science, it’s their inability to deliver what is expected inside a system that will probably not be able to give you ideal support conditions.

    9. Tau*

      I did a STEM PhD and then went into industry. The main thing I felt I was missing for academia was a strong internal sense of motivation and drive; I felt very isolated and depressed during my PhD and constantly wondering whether my research was good worthwhile or good enough or feeling frustrated by being stuck, and I realised that being happy as an academic required a level of inner confidence on that matter which I just lacked. The sheer level of self-motivation required was also a really bad fit for my ADHD. Note that I wasn’t in a lab-based subject, though, which may affect things.

      I switched to software development and it was great. A lot of the thought patterns needed are similar in terms of abstract logical problem solving, but the problems are MUCH smaller and more tractable; it means that the high of solving one isn’t the same, but “being stuck” now means not making any progress on something for… like… a day. Not three months or more. Working in a team and knowing that my work has a purpose and will be used also helps a lot, because I have immediate accountability to my team members and stakeholders but also clear feedback on whether what I’m delivering is acceptable. I do miss the academia atmosphere at times, though. Conferences are just not the same, and that’s *despite* the fact that I can actually understand talks now.

    10. Lizard*

      Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences! This has definitely given me some good things to think about!

    11. Random Academic Cog*

      I can’t tell you what makes the difference between a successful independent researcher and a permanent research track assistant professor, but I can tell you about some of the fatal mistakes that are distressingly common.
      1) You get a research faculty role with most/all of your salary coming from a senior investigator’s grants. Of COURSE you’ll have plenty of time to do your own science, write your own grants, publish your own work. Spoiler alert: no you won’t. You won’t have time to do your own work because you’ll be a full-time lab manager for Professor VIP. And no, they won’t advocate for you to get a startup package and a tenure-track position if you serve as an indentured servant for 5 years. What you will be doing is wasting your “early investigator” window.
      2) If you do get your own lab, don’t assume your students and post-docs (or even you) know everything they need to do to remain compliant in the lab. Different institutions have different standards and expectations, and as PI it’s all on you to make sure everything is compliant. This is an issue for everyone, everywhere. If things get screwed up and it was paid for by NIH or DOD, there can be real consequences.
      3) Don’t respond so badly to mistakes that your lab staff are afraid to tell you the truth. Because all that does is result in leaving you out of the loop on things you really need to know – presuming they don’t just make stuff up entirely.
      4) At the same time, don’t under-react to serious lapses. If you have someone in your lab who doesn’t understand (or maybe care about) the rules, it’s your name, your reputation, and your grants on the line. This is along the lines of putting on your own O2 mask first. Don’t be so worried about your student’s or post-doc’s career that you let them tank yours.

    12. chocolate muffins*

      STEM professor/lab head here. There are many things that have helped me in my career, but one that stands out to me currently is the ability to just. keep. going. And to separate feelings from actions.

      Paper got rejected and I feel bad? Keep writing. Applied to 100 jobs and got no interviews? Keep going. Grant wasn’t funded, or even discussed? Write another one. Class didn’t go well? Show up cheerful to the next one. Just. Keep. Going. When I don’t feel like it, when I want to give up, whatever. Eventually the feeling passes and I get the rewards of having done whatever it is that I did in the meantime.

    13. Prof*

      I’m a science professor at a major research university. Being able to write is extremely important- the papers have to get written! Not only being a decent writer, but having the internal motivation to do the writing. Also extremely important is being able to manage your time and juggle dozens of things simultaneously. This includes preparing for and grading classes, being part of a wide range of committees, managing undergrad and grad students, submitting proposals, reviewing papers and proposals, and managing research projects. One other thing I’d add – you need a thick skin to handle rejection and criticism and keep going.

  18. Van Wilder*

    What do you look for when hiring an au pair?

    My family is thinking about getting an au pair soon. I was thinking of viewing profiles, narrowing it down to three to have Zoom calls with, and choosing one (understanding that they may reject and I would go to the next one.)

    What do you look for in a profile? What do you ask during an au pair interview? What information should I proactively give them about our family?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      More from the nanny side:
      Will we have a decent contract with everything in writing, pay above table, taxes, are there benefits or a stipend toward benefits, do the parents work outside the home or will they be hovering, do our values line up enough, how does the family discipline, what chores are expected (kids clothes, kids dishes, cleaning up playspace at end of day – cool. Washing adults dishes? Not cool. Coming back monday to a huge mess in the playroom from the weekend? Not cool).
      What ages and genders are the children, do they have activities outside the home Nanny needs to drive to – who pays gas? Will Nanny need to move carseats around all the time or can they use family vehicle with them installed by parents? How will expenses be handled – is it pay then get reimbursed with receipts, family leaves cash on table, family credit card?

      For a live in situation : Is my living space actually private? Will parents enforce boundaries on kids (off hours for nanny)? How will visitors be handled? Is there fridge space for separate groceries? What level of clean is it? How is the family on weekends, will it be calm or noisy with guests?

    2. starting point*

      look for or discuss as much cultural compatibility as possible.
      Cultural issues I’ve seen:
      -if you want them to drive: what do they think about all the kids being in car seats? Do they think it’s ok to not have a kid in a car seat if that kid’s nanny/parent is with them, and the nanny/parent says its ok? (eg, giving a lift to another adult/pair)
      -how urban/suburban are you? how necessary are cars to get around? If very, and they have access to a car in the evenings, what about drinking & driving? What about giving someone a lift who smokes in that car?
      -How scared of dogs are they? Many places have wild dogs that people are quite frightened of.
      -can they/will they read to your child? Interactively play? or just take them to the playground, and let the kid fend for themself?
      -what happens if the kid gets “nice clothes” dirty? Can girls play in the mud?

      note that some of these questions have no right/wrong answer, you just need to be on the same page

    3. WheresMyPen*

      I just listened to a podcast about a woman who made up a fake identity and experience and got multiple jobs as an au pair, and no one seemed to check any references or call previous employers, so I’d definitely do that.

      When I au paired I would have wanted to know what the family routine was like, what my expected tasks were, if I’d have to do housework or just look after the kids, if I’d have free time, what my bedroom/living area would be like, how much I’d be paid, how much time off I’d have etc. A zoom call is a great idea, maybe a recorded video of the kids saying hello, a video tour of the house etc. Especially if they’ll be coming from another country and might be nervous about being away from home.

        1. LGP*

          I’m not the person you asked, but I think I know which show they’re talking about. It’s called The Real Carrie Jade, from RTÉ Documentary on One.
          (Apologies to WheresMyPen if that’s not what you were referring to.)

          1. WheresMyPen*

            It was called Carrie Jade Does Not Exist so sounds like there’s multiple podcasts about the same person!

    4. M2*

      If you’re in the US understand some states now require people to pay au pairs minimum wage and OT after 40 hours. Some are evening asking for back pay after the rules have changed. Massachusetts changed the rules and I know of other states who most likely will go that route.

      I think if you want care for your kids pay the proper money. Pay a nanny and pay them above board and give benefits. The people I know who have au pairs all had issues. One pair of surgeons decided to just hire a nanny and it’s so much better. A friend had two different au pairs and one got pregnant and just left and the other gave a week notice and then went home. Both seemed happy were getting paid above the rate and both had their own apartment attached to the home! Their own bathroom, kitchen, living, bedroom, Tv, etc. they also had their own car and phones that were paid for by the family. One of their au pairs I thought did an awful job. I was at a playground and met them for a play date and the au pair was on her phone and expected me to watch a 18 month old and 5 year old!

      Do your due diligence. Don’t go over the hours. I think you get what you pay for. Paying someone what $4 an hours to watch your kids? Even with food and phone and living in your home would you take that to watch your kids?

      I think the cultural part has been changed and really now is abused by families who want extremely cheap labor.

      1. M2*

        I will also note one of my friends au pairs said she could drive and when came here clearly could not drive. They lived where there were no sidewalks and you had to drive. It ended up being a bad fit with the au pair quickly moving to NYC (her desired location) and my friend being OOL

        1. Bast*

          I had 4 AP pre-covid and it was a mixed bag. My biggest issue was driving. We had 1 AP who had been in the States for a year already, had a license from another state, and was a good, responsible driver. We had one driver who was a good driver, but refused to get her international license before coming here despite it being the law in my state and being told by both myself and the coordinator that if she did not obtain it, she would not be able to drive. Despite her good driving, due to her lack of an international license (and how long it takes to get a state license in my particular state) she was unable to drive and was quite upset about it. We had two that “knew how to drive” and absolutely did not. One was from a country where apparently there is no practical component of the test, it is all a written, theory exam. Despite paying for driver’s ed, she still was not in a position to pass any driving test, and for her own safety and that of everyone else, I would not let her drive my car, despite her obtaining an international license.

          Outside of driving, of the 4 AP that we had, I would say 2 were amazing, 1 was a great nanny but very hard to live with, and the other was a pleasant girl that we liked until she revealed she only was here to travel, and had no intention of staying anywhere longer than a few months. She was kicked out of the program.

    5. Bast*

      We had 4 au pairs over the years. There’s a lot, and I know I am going to end up forgetting something.

      –Kids and Household. You want to give them a basic overview of the kids, ages, schedules, other family members in the house, etc.

      –Pets. If you have pets and having pets is no-go for the au pair, better to know up front.

      –Driving. Driving is a HUGE HUGE thing that comes up all the time. My state requires an international license to drive, NOT a license from your home country, and this upset several au pairs, despite them being told ahead of time that they absolutely could not drive without an international license. I think they believed it was a personal preference and we’d bend, but we learned after the first one to stress that it’s the law, not just preference, and that they absolutely could not get behind the wheel without an international license. You also want to check how long they have been driving, what type of car they typically drive, how often, etc. Do some lie? Yes. I’m not trying to be jaded, but we’ve had “I drive my Honda Accord every day for hours at a time” not know where the brake and gas pedal were. If poor driving skills are a dealbreaker for you, make that clear up front and that it is absolutely needed for your area. If you live in a city where public transport is more readily available, let that be known. Also, if you are going to have specific requirements to use your vehicle, let the au pair know. I had au pairs refuse to match because we did not have a designated “au pair car.”

      –Location. I live in a rural area. While there are trains that run into the city, where I live is fairly boring. Some au pairs prefer a quiet life and do not care about nightlife and crazy events. For some, this is a deal breaker. If you live in a boring area, let that be known up front.

      –Children and Safety. Make sure they have a basic understanding of first aid and safety. I liked to throw a few hypothetical situations in there to see how they would handle, say, a skinned knee vs. choking vs. a big gushing cut that won’t stop bleeding.

      –Children and Discipline. How would the AP handle discipline? What would they do about a toddler temper tantrum? A sullen preteen who slams the door in their face and refuses to do their homework?

      –Mutual Interests and Hobbies. I tried to match the AP and my children with some common interests. Kids that are very outdoorsy and sporty might not be a great match for the AP who does not like sports and prefers to stay indoors. This isn’t a deal breaker, but if there are no shared interests, it may be harder to connect and AP may not be happy.

      –Diet and Allergies. Make sure to ask about this, as well as state if your family is on a special diet.

      –Special House Rules.

    6. Anon for This*

      Please remember that an au pair is a student coming here to experience America not a trained Nanny. I have not had an au pair myself, but friends have had mixed experiences. Check references, confirm training, most importantly confirm whether they have experience with children in the same age range as yours.

    7. JustaTech*

      I didn’t go the au pair route, but I have very close friends who did, and for them one of the biggest things was making sure that the au pair was LGBTQ+ friendly (as one family is LGBTQ and the other is family to an LGBTQ family).
      So if you have an identity that might be out of the mainstream, or out of the mainstream for the au pair’s home culture, bring it up!
      LGBTQ, vegan, atheist, very religious, no screens, I don’t know, but make sure the au pair is going to be fully accepting.

  19. cv*

    We’re hiring and we got a lot of applicants and there has been various degrees of people calling to check in/emailing me and while, okay annoying but harmless, yesterday someone walked themselves straight into blacklist. He called twice last week, all times in which I wasn’t in/wasn’t at my desk. He was sent to my VM but never left a message (he gave the receptionist his name when he called). Then yesterday, he called for a 3rd time and instead of asking for me, asked for the head of HR and then attempted to file a complaint about how “unavailable I am” which I was – I was just really busy and not at my desk much and then I was on vacation – and wanted to know if he could speak to someone else about his resume.

    HR kindly told him, all we can say is yes we got your application and we are currently reviewing them (true!). But man, I couldn’t believe someone would think calling and complaining about me was the right way to get attention! And apparently he had no questions about the position, he just wanted to let us know he was interested.

    1. Van Wilder*

      OMG agree, blacklist. It’s unfortunate that he got terrible job seeking advice but this is how he will learn.

    2. ecnaseener*

      So annoying. Even setting aside the context, you don’t get to complain about someone not returning your calls if you choose not to leave them a message!!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! And I just assume people are busy, especially if they’re hiring, because isn’t the implication then that they don’t have enough staff?

      2. TheBunny*

        This. That’s always my first question when someone says they can’t reach someone…did you leave a message or do you just expect them to return all missed calls?

        My boss is remote and in office 1 week per month. She’s here today and we’re planning the final bits of a company event tomorrow. We’re busy. I am away from my desk so much today my computer keeps shutting down. If you call me and I don’t answer, I’m probably not going to be at my desk if you try again.

    4. Busy Middle Manager*

      While you seem 100% on the surface, let me tell you, many of us pick up bad habits about these specific things, while going through the process at other companies. I have indeed have a company ask if I was still interested in a job, noting I didn’t “get in contact with” the HR person who had left me an email. So same situation as your candidate. So at least one other company out there wants applicants to hound HR to get them on the phone (in this recent case, I did call a few times and they were never free. Also it’s 2024 and don’t see why the HR person couldn’t eventually email me if they know they are always in meetings). I’m not stressed out about it because I have savings, but I could see someone with no income and expenses due, panicking.

    5. DivergentStitches*

      I used to be a recruiter and I had a guy do that – my boss (the GM) said no to his resume, I relayed that to him, and he proceeded to call in and ask for the GM, assuming that I hadn’t actually shown him the resume.

    6. Dandylions*

      Eh. It’s not great. But keep in mind the job market sucks right now. That generates a lot of stress on candidates and is bringing out some bad stress responses.

      By all means reject him but blacklisting from the company forever seems like a harsh response imo. From your account he wasn’t abusive. He was anxious and made a bad decision to escalate you not answering the phone.

      FWIW I’ve never done anything like this. I just left the job search market and happen to be very in the know of moods on the searching side and people are getting desperate for jobs.

      1. Kay*

        What!? No!! This is wildly unprofessional behavior and he has wildly unacceptable expectations of how the professional world works! He has given valuable information about himself, don’t ignore it.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Hell no!
        Filing a complaint against the OP because she was too busy to pander to his repeated calling … he’s demonstrating that he’d be a nightmare to work with. Jerk dodged.

      3. cv*

        Stressed or not, he didn’t have a reason to complain that I didn’t talk to him. He didn’t actually leave me voicemail and he didn’t actually have a question, he just wanted to make sure I had his resume… which I did and he would have gotten the automative confirmation when he sent it in.

        I find it offputting that he felt the need to make it sound like I deliberatley was refusing to talk to him, when I actually wasn’t! And also, I’d be his manager and that’s not a great way to start a relationship, imho.

    7. cv*

      I just got another phone call from someone who seemed very afronted about it. She wanted to make sure she gave us the right phone number (she did) and then something about making sure we called her back if she called again. And she was pretty rude too and didn’t even say goodbye after I said, “okay thank you for calling, have a good day” she just hung up!

      I’m pretty sure this is the 3rd time she called too, but never left a VM.

      I don’t know who is telling people to call but it is not good advice.

  20. Anon for This*

    Hello everyone, thank you for your help last week with my employee Bob, who I was finally given permission to manage… four years too late. Bob has gotten worse the incident I described and I have not had a chance to talk to my boss (the CEO) about him. However, I have a meeting next week to discuss 2025 planning and… it turns out Bob’s program lost a LOT more money this year than he had projected. Likely we will need to significantly reduce the scope of the program for it to stay viable, and I know that will piss him off. So the problem might take care of itself? We will see.

    1. WellRed*

      Why wait and see if it will take care of itself when you have a valid reason and permission to manage Bob?

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I can’t tell if “take car of itself” means “he’ll be so pissed he leaves” or if it means “his program lost a ton of money and he’ll be sacked for it”.

  21. Dita*

    Does anyone have recommendations for project-management courses that you’ve found valuable/applicable across contexts? Or on how to otherwise leverage my ad-hoc experience in that area? I’m a big proponent of learning on the job, and have benefited from it, but wonder if there’s more I could be doing.

    I like my job a lot: I make sure the creative team (which I used to be part of, and I still report up to that VP) has what they need from the product/tech side to do their jobs. I’m not a product manager, or a developer, or customer service, or quality assurance—but I work closely with all those teams. It’s a lot of translating back and forth, balancing competing priorities, thinking through different use cases, occasionally getting to collaborate on fun new products but mostly just trying to hold broken pieces together, ha.

    My predecessor/former manager is now a true product manager in another part of the company. Some form of project or product manager is probably what most places would call what I do. But all my knowledge feels either super vague or only applicable to this one context, you know?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Check out the Project Management Institute. They have a variety of offerings and events that can provide education and networking opportunities, as well as the Project Management Professional certification.

    2. Name name neame*

      It would help to know what kind of projects, I see project manager referenced all the time with no distinction between, say, IT and building construction, and it’s not the same across all fields. I think a lot of this is coming from the tech world assuming it’s the baseline.

      1. Dita*

        I agree, “project manager” can mean almost anything and that’s half the problem, ha. In my current role it’s digital media, so we’re updating and maintaining sites and apps

    3. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      I know they are the gold standard but I was so frustrated by the Project Management Institute. The introduction to project management course I took was all about memorizing vocabulary and precise orders of operations using that vocabulary and what I really wanted was something that gave theories and best practices that were directly applicable to my work. It was 10 hours and way overbuilt for what I needed.

  22. Wanderer*

    I’m consodering to transfer from public to private sector. So far I’ve exclusively worked in the Public sector, but a repräsentative from a Client at my last Job implied they might have a job for me.
    Payment would be better, of course, and I could work remotely. I also suspect I wpuld pick up a few new an usefull qualifications there.
    On the other hand I assume I would work fulltime as opposed to parttime as I do now, which might interfere with my private Life, where I’m handling a lot of changes right now, plus it would probably put the lid on an idea / pipe dream of mine to open a side business.
    Do you have any thoughts on this?

    1. WellRed*

      Working full time does impact private life. There’s no “might” about it. If you are working part time on a public salary, does that mean you don’t need money or just live frugally because the new job could provide lifechanging money that you could sock away for your side biz.

      1. Wanderer*

        I life frugally, but the pay is still decent.
        The biz would primarily need time to get going. Taking the fulltime job would mean trading freedom for stability.

    2. HonorBox*

      You might be in the perfect position to negotiate with the new employer. Not knowing exactly what part-time means in terms of hours right now, perhaps they could use you for 30 hours/week instead of 40. You could earn a bit more while still saving a full day each week, and put that toward the side business. Also not knowing what your commute looks like now, being able to work remotely opens up some additional time each day that you can use to focus on other things outside of work.

    3. spcepickle*

      I went the other way (private to public), also I am in the US which will make a difference. I am not sure if you are union covered in your public job but few private jobs are unionized (outside of certain fields). Which may mean you are giving up job security. You might also be giving up time off. 3-5 weeks off total is standard in private vs the separate buckets I have in public which is 12 days of sick time, 16.5 days of vacation, plus 11 paid holidays. I would check on how paid leave accrues and what the roll over policies are.
      My public job also comes with a pension, so thinking about retirement – what you have now vs what the perks are at new job (do they match 401k? Are there any profit sharing?).
      So the paycheck will be higher, but what does the overall compensation package look like and does it align with your goals.

      Lastly I would think about overall culture. When I worked private I felt like I was the one responsible, doing the thing, and making the money. There was lots of pressure to perform and do it right! Now that I work public it feels like the team is doing things, I have more safety nets and check and balances. This has pros and cons, work private it was really easy to fire low performers, now managing for the government – it is not. Also when I worked private I had more autonomy, now much of what I do passes through different approval processes.

      There is no right answer here – Only what works best for you, right now.

  23. Purple squirrel*

    Looking for a nice way to say no to a reference request…

    So I had a teammate who was laid off about a year or so after I joined the team. We barely worked together, or even chatted that much. No animosity involved – we simply didn’t have mutual projects or interests.

    Ever since she left, she’s reached out on occasion asking me to be a reference for her work. I just received another such request. For the first couple years it was okay because she was a perfectly reliable, albeit unexceptional, performer as far as I could tell and I would say that in a positive way.

    But it’s been nearly 9 years since we worked together! I barely recall her work, and was never her manager. She must be desperate for references if she’s still asking me, but that doesn’t overrule the fact that I have nothing useful to say.

    How do I nicely say “find someone who remembers you”?

    1. londonedit*

      I’d just say something like ‘I appreciate you thinking of me, but as it’s been 9 years since we last worked together, I think too much time has now passed for any reference from me to be relevant. I hope you can find someone else!’ or similar.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “At this point, I don’t think I’ll be a useful reference. Our time together was quite awhile ago and I wasn’t your supervisor or anything. It would be much better for you to ask a more recent co-worker/supervisor etc.”

    3. Van Wilder*

      Hi Jade! Hope you’re doing well. At this point, I’m so far removed from Widgets, Inc. that I hardly remember the work we used to do together. I don’t think I would be a useful reference anymore. If you’re just looking for someone to confirm that you worked there, maybe you could put the general number and HR could confirm employment dates? Sorry I can’t be of more help!

      …
      Or, if you’re still at Widgets, Inc. then, “I’m so far removed from the Llamas project…” or something else that you used to work on but don’t anymore.

      That’s probably what I would go with. Adapt for your style.

    4. Pay no attention...*

      If you’re in other regular contact with her — social media or see her in-person occasionally because it’s a small town or industry — you could reply that you can’t be a reference anymore since it’s been so long since you worked with her. But if that isn’t the case, I would just block or ignore the request. It could be that she mass messages anyone she’s ever used as a reference to see if they’re contact info is still the same and she doesn’t even remember you that well either.

    5. HonorBox*

      Frame it in a way that puts the focus on the benefit to her.

      “Since it has been 9 years since we worked together, I think many places would look at a reference from me as having far less credibility than someone who you’ve worked with more recently. It would be in your best interest going forward to ask someone who has worked with you within the last few years.”

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I agree with the scripts already provided, but you might want to ask why she is still reaching back to you. A colleague applied for a position recently that required a ridiculous number of references at various levels, and was reaching out to older contacts in order to meet the high number. Personally I thought the requirement was absurd, but the person really wanted the job…

    7. Purple squirrel*

      FWIW, the only contact I’ve had with her over the last nine years was whenever she reached out via LinkedIn with “I put you down as a reference, here’s the link.” They’ve mostly been web forms to complete, possibly for contract agencies? It’s not really a niche field, as there are many professional groups and publications and “thought leaders” and so on. I’m still at the same company but moved to an adjacent field and then even further away, so I haven’t even done this type of work for 7 or 8 years now.

      Ghosting doesn’t work. I’ve done that and she’s sent pleading reminders to please complete the form… so it’s not a mass mailing to all & sundry.

      Wow, writing all this out is kind of a revelation. I’ve been far too nice about this! I know what it’s like to scramble for references, and have consequently been (overly?) sympathetic. TBH, there’s never been any professional or personal benefit in it for me and is not even any benefit to her anymore.

      As always, the wisdom of the AAM commentariat comes through. Thanks everyone !

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        It’s pretty audacious to put your name down as a reference without asking you in advance! But especially since you haven’t worked together or had much of a relationship in almost a decade!

      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Yup! You’re well past the point where you can politely decline, once, and then ignore any future requests.

    8. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      You’re not in a position to give a strong, detailed reference for her, just because of the passage of time. You can tell them that she was nice and you weren’t aware of any issues, but that’s the limit of what you can do at the moment. So if she wants that, cool, but you don’t want to cause problems in her job search because you just have too much distance from that work.

    9. Semi-retired admin*

      A friend was told by a former manager that too much time had passed for her to be a relevant business reference. Polity, straight-forward, truthful, and no hard feelings anywhere!

    10. RagingADHD*

      “Sorry, I don’t feel that I can give a meaningful reference to your current work, but I wish you the best!”

  24. Van Wilder*

    Someone on my team got terminated early today (she was a short term contractor.)

    I interviewed her, hired her, and advocated for bringing her back a second and third year. But since then, I have not worked with her directly. She is three levels below me. The decision to terminate her early came from above me. There were some problems with her timesheet that she had been warned about.

    Do I reach out to her, since I had a personal connection to her, to say I’m sorry about her contract ending early and wish her the best? Or do I risk putting the company in legal jeopardy by saying something wrong? If I don’t reach out, does that look cold?

    (Btw, yes, I’m posting three separate threads about three separate topics today. Of course the one I really want answers to is held up in moderation.)

    1. Strive to Excel*

      I wouldn’t say anything about “I’m sorry your contract ended early” and stick with “I wish you the best”. I would also do this through personal channels (vs work ones) as much as possible.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        Agreed. I’m not sure how serious the timecard issues were — turning it in late repeatedly less of a big deal vs. fraudulently filling in overtime hours for example. If it wasn’t anything that would get legal involved to recover fraud or theft, I think you could reach out privately, “I’m sorry to hear you are no longer with Acme Company. If you need a reference, I’d be happy to provide one through my personal email or phone number at _________.” Even though she was 3 levels below you, you seem to know enough about her work.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I wouldn’t reach out. Let it go. You’re too many levels removed to be a good reference for her (especially for a job she was fired from). Definitely don’t apologize for her firing.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would say, if she was terminated by people above you on the org chart (which is already kind of a big deal if she’s 3 levels BELOW you) for repeated timesheet issues (which is a major issue as well) I would just let it go and not reach out.

    4. Observer*

      Do I reach out to her, since I had a personal connection to her, to say I’m sorry about her contract ending early and wish her the best?

      Considering it sounds like she played games with her timesheet I would not.

      Or do I risk putting the company in legal jeopardy by saying something wrong?

      I doubt that your email alone would put the company at risk. But I would think it could definitely be used to bolster a case.

      If I don’t reach out, does that look cold?

      Unless you had an ongoing relationship with her, no.

  25. Spero*

    I need opinions on timing of a new hire! I currently lead a small team and we are splitting a position into two roles for growth related reasons. We expect the majority of the growth to kick off in January, meaning ideally we would hire in November and train in December to be ready before January. However, between previous commitments and holidays I will only be in office about 6 days during the whole month of December. The current incumbent/peer is completely competent to conduct training, but I worry a new hire would feel unsupported if her manager essentially disappeared right after starting (and I may not be reachable at all for up to a week in early December). If you were the new hire, which would seem best to you:
    1) start in mid November, have about 2 weeks with manager and then training continues just from peer for a few weeks before manager reappears. Would probably finish training in early/mid December and have very little work for a few weeks around the holidays before things pick up.
    2) start in mid December, work a few scattered days around holidays with manager present and then work picks up after only a few weeks of training.
    4) start in January, when work is immediately pouring in while also doing training but everyone is present and consistently in office.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I had this exact situation when I started my current job. I started in early November and because of various personnel and IT issues, had a very extended training period. What should have been three weeks ended up being six weeks. Believe me, it is far better to have extra time for training and risk sitting around with little to do than to have to rush through things.

      Having very little work for one person to do around the holidays is much less of a problem than everyone trying to do all the work that is pouring in while also helping to train the new person.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      If financially possible, I’d love to just hit the ground running in January. Not having PTO banked yet and having to work weird empty office shifts with minimal work or burn through PTO month 1 would be annoying. If i need the money and benefits sooner, then November, get at least some expectations from manager before being dumped on coworker.

    3. MsM*

      Scenario 1 sounds optimal to me, but I don’t really think any of these are bad solutions. People get that December’s a weird time and people aren’t going to be in the office consistently.

    4. Lady Danbury*

      As a manager and an employee, definitely option 1. You have solid time with the manager to start, as well as continued training with the coworker. Obviously I don’t know the job/industry, but I find that there’s very rarely truly nothing for a new employee to do, even if it’s just reading up on the company, industry, role, etc.

      3 (4, lol) is the worst option by far. Everyone may be present in January but they’ll also be super busy, so training the new employee will be at the bottom of the list of priorities. Huge risk that they end up with bad/suboptimal habits because they’re forced to figure things out on their own, which you’ll then need to retrain them on later.

      1. Spero*

        hah I think I started with an option 3 of them starting while I was gone and have coworker do initial training alone, but I deleted it because I realized I hated it!

    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      This happened to me once, but in the summer, and it turned out fine. Largely because I had a temporary manager while my boss was away.

    6. Kay*

      Option 1 is ideal and option 3(4) is setting everyone up for failure.

      Also, don’t you want the extra time in case issues arise like:
      -it takes longer to hire than expected
      -you get sick, your new hire gets sick, the other trainer gets sick
      -training takes longer than expected?

      You can’t go back in time to do more thorough training, so to me a few slow days at the end of the year when people are already checked out/taking time off/having parties, etc. sounds pretty good to me! Just communicate up front to your new hire about your timelines and who they will be working with and I would expect everything to go fine.

    7. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      Look at the other side of things.
      Is this new-hire in a financial bind? Have they been unemployed for a length of time?
      If you don’t start them early, they may accept another position between the time you offer and their start date if they just can’t survive another two months without a paycheck!

  26. Peanut Hamper*

    When asked why you are leaving your current position, is it okay to say IT issues? I regularly lose two or more hours a week of productivity due to IT issues, and we have been in the middle of a massive IT migration that has taken three years and we see no sign of it ending.

    I currently have a person working on site who is waiting for a laptop so they can access an older system that hasn’t been migrated, and so they are sitting there twiddling their thumbs. I am really getting tired of all of this: announced updates that never happen, updates that happen without being announced (always a welcome surprise), changes that get made so that something that previously worked no longer work, etc.

    1. Educator*

      Eh, as a hiring manager, I would worry a bit that the IT issues were on your side and whether that would be an issue here.

      I think the right answer to why you are interested in leaving your current position should always be about why the new job is better, not why the old job is worse.

      1. Annika Hansen*

        Agreed 100%. I have worked with people who get up in arms (and some actually retired) over normal IT changes. As an outsider, we have no idea whether you are having the real issues you are experiencing or if you are whiner, technically inept, etc. Focus on what you like at the new job.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I wouldn’t be that specific. It might make you sound like someone who can’t put up with a normal IT-related inconveniences (this is obviously a bunch of *major* inconveniences, but your interviewers won’t understand that unless you spend a lot of your interview complaining about your current employer, which isn’t a good look). Personally I’d turn it into a bigger-picture issue instead. The company isn’t able to keep up with what they need, general lack of support makes it difficult to get things done.

    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      I wouldn’t mention this if that was your only reason. I work somewhere where the server was down for 3 days a few times. You’re talking about 2 hours here and there?

      Updates without an announcement could be a thing. but to address at your current job. Maybe they got out of the habit of sending reminder emails since no one reads them. I know no one reads them at my job, because they often have included questions that never got answered. For example “patch to fix issue in ticket 10102393 to occur at 8:00, please let us know if issue reoccurs in the morning” that consistently get ignored

    4. HelloWorld*

      I used to worked in a place that IT resources were spread pretty thin, but I would not say, “I am looking for a new opportunity due to IT issues.” Such phrasing sounds like you tend to offload your ownership to someone else.

      Instead, I would be a bit vague but profession by saying, “I no longer agree with the business directions and priorities of the company.” It’s a fair to say how you are no longer aligned with the company’s work with IT issue be a symptom.

    5. FashionablyEvil*

      I’d say something like, “There have been persistent issues with getting the resources our team needs to complete our work.”

    6. TheBunny*

      I don’t love that answer, to be honest. It sounds a little like you leave a job whenever things don’t go exactly as you think you should.

      I’m guessing that’s not the impression you intend… but it’s how I took it in the context of “how would I feel if a candidate said this” frame of mind.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Losing a couple of hours per week to IT sounds a really trivial reason to leave a job. Most people lose more than that nattering by the coffee machine.
      It would make you sound like someone who can’t cope with normal everyday work irritations. Instead, say something positive that excites you about the new job (fake it if need be)

  27. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    About a week ago, my grandboss scheduled a mandatory all-department meeting for the first day of Rosh Hashanah. I emailed them to let them know, and got no response. Today, the meeting was rescheduled…for the second day of Rosh Hashanah. I am beyond irritated and I’m afraid the email I sent didn’t hide that fact. Does everyone know Rosh Hashanah has more than one day? No. Does everyone have a calendar? Yes! Do I go to HR, or wait to see what happens?

    1. WellRed*

      That’s frustrating and it’s good that you spoke up but you also could have provided the dates when you reached, no? It’s ok to be irritated though. Maybe they’ll learn for next time.

    3. Head Sheep Counter*

      My calendar on the wall at work has federal holidays highlighted but not named. My calendar on line for work includes the name of the federal holiday but does not include holidays that aren’t federal.

      So it is quite possible for someone to have no idea about non-federal holidays.

      1. sign*

        It is unreasonable to complain that someone scheduled a meeting on a non-federal / non corporate holiday. Especially since they did change it. Next time, just tell them the date range of the holiday. Do you know when Eid is ? or Diwali ? or Chinese New Year ? Do you know how long each holiday is ? Do you check before scheduling every meeting ?

        If they are attempting to accommodate your needs, attribute it to ignorance, not malice.
        You are not the only minority out there – we all have to advocate for ourselves and give grace where it is deserved.

        1. Ali + Nino*

          I totally agree. As an observant Jew, this comes up for me most years (because the Jewish holidays usually overlap with multiple workdays), and I’ve learned to be proactive about informing my employer of my needs. This includes specifying exactly which dates I won’t be available and, if relevant, any changes to regular work
          times (ex. if you need to leave work early on erev yom tov).

          Dont take it personally. I grew up in a place where public schools were always closed for RH and YK because so many teachers would be absent those days it didn’t make sense to hold classes. If someone hasn’t had exposure to Jewish practice, or their understanding of Jewish practice differs from what you do, you just need to be matter of fact in explaining what you need.

    5. Nitpicker*

      I remember back in the day being extremely frustrated because my non-Jewish managers were surprised that the High Holidays happened every year.

      1. Academic glass half full*

        I just scheduled my vacation days for the Jewish Holidays. If they want me in a meeting it better be on a different day.
        The worst was when my previous place of employment scheduled a mandatory professional education all day workshop on a Saturday that was the second day of Rosh Hashanah. Topic? Diversity.

    6. M2*

      I would just resend the email with the dates of the Holiday. I have different Holidays on my calendar but also ask my team to let me know if any holidays or major events for them ahead of time to not schedule meetings. I make mistakes, my phone makes mistakes, we are all human.

      My organization and my child’s school has the 3rd off for the Holiday but not the 4th. My calendar that comes with my phone has Rosh Hashanah as only on the 3rd, I had to put in the times/ dates for it. Members of my team have off of course, but I think it’s important to go in letting them know so they can change it for you. Unless of course they are actively being antisemitism or hostile, but it sounds like it was an honest mistake.

      I’m sorry and it’s really frustrating.

    7. TheBunny*

      Did you ask if you can skip it?

      Not trying to make it sound like I’m not sympathetic, as I am…but I’ve been the person trying to schedule one of these meetings and we once needed to have one within a 2 week window. There wasn’t a single day all were available during any window that didn’t involve a holiday or weekend.

      I finally just scheduled the darn thing and took the complaints on a case by case basis. Preplanned vacation? Religious holiday? Approved to miss. Want to WFH that day instead of your usual day? Denied.

    8. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Not all secular calendars have RH as two days and not all diaspora Jews observe two days. So checking the calendar won’t necessarily help. Not sure if you mean “go to HR to complain” or “go to HR to get the meeting rescheduled.” I wouldn’t complain – I would respond again and say you’ll miss due to religious obligation and would include of list of the rest of the days you’ll miss in October.

      My first year in college I had a biology hourly scheduled for the afternoon of Yom Kippur. A number of us spoke up and the prof rescheduled it – for 7:00 PM the preceding evening. He would not budge, either. That was in 1978 and I do hope it’s gotten better, but I’m not holding. my breath.

    9. Lisa Simpson*

      Google Calendar doesn’t include major Jewish holidays under the US Holidays and Observances list. You have to opt in to the Jewish Holiday calendar, which includes every single holiday on the Jewish theological calendar (maybe 40 holidays a year?)

      This is a very serious flaw in Google Calendar and it drives me up the wall. I’m a Millennial Old and still keep paper calendars on hand, which do always include them, but not everyone does!

    10. FrequentIssue*

      Some companies don’t care, full stop. About a decade ago the biggest meeting of the year was scheduled on Yom Kippur. They didn’t really care when I pointed it out and said I would need to figure out how to get the information and training everyone else was getting that day since I wouldn’t attend.

      Two years ago a major government agency scheduled their annual conference on Yom Kippur. They did eventually reschedule it, but it wasn’t automatic.

      There’s a reason I make sure I have personal days for the high holidays. Otherwise I’m sure there have been years I’d have trouble taking it off. And I live in a city with a relatively large Jewish population where most people have at least heard of Rodh Hashannah and Yom Kippur.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      I wouldn’t have expected them to reschedule. I would’ve expected them to say it’s not mandatory for me to attend due to the holiday. Unless there are enough Jews to significantly diminish the attendance, I don’t expect them to try to schedule stuff around. That said, all my “mandatory” meetings are available asynchronously anyway, so where I work it wouldn’t be a thing.
      Is this mandatory like the person who scheduled it says so? or mandatory like it covers some sort of regulatory thing?

  28. lapnep*

    Hello! I’m making the agenda for upcoming office retreat. Major reported issue/elephant in room is burnout; we just had a manager leave bc of it. Director is nervous about this as agenda item, after delaying/moving discussion of this to the retreat. I want all to be heard and am trying to frame a productive discussion/brainstorm (e.g. areas we see bottlenecks we can get solutions for; time sucks we can make more efficient; clarifying relationships with partner agencies to avoid duplicating efforts). Any ideas for questions to have a conversation about burnout that acknowledges, is productive, and also not just a trauma dump would be so welcome! There is not an outside facilitator though as I write I suspect that could be helpful. Thanks all and happy Friday.

    1. CTT*

      Ooh, I think this is a really important topic but the times it’s been addressed with vs without an outside facilitator at my work, the without version has been very unproductive. If a facilitator isn’t feasible, do you have the ability to turn this discussion into a survey and preview the survey at the retreat and make sure there aren’t any areas of concern being left out? You might also get more honest answers if people have specific concerns that they don’t want to air in a big group.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      I’m burnout so have been watching videos from the “burnout lady” Christina Maslach that are interesting to watch and may help.

      I see there is a “burnout Maslach heirarchy” worksheet online you could maybe have people do. Doesn’t look that intense. Maybe have people do that, then vent a little, then take the issues back and deal with them when back at work

      The messy part is that burnout is often about not feeling supported or listened to or feel like there is a mission, not only workload. So maybe the to-do is prep upper management to hear criticism about these things.

      You also need to reframe that “trauma dumping” term. I’ve seen this framing used to stop people from talking. Talking about work issues isn’t “trauma dumping.” “so and so refused to help with a project so I had to do it on two weekends, and got no credit for that” is a factual statement, not trauma dumping.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      So, this needs buy-in from above you, but one way to reframe handing overwork and burnout is to work as a group on a “stop doing this” list. If you can come up with outdated procedures, tasks that made sense once but no clients even need any more so they aren’t worth the overhead, or other ways to reflect the current reality of everyone’s jobs by getting rid of some of the tasks, it sometimes helps.

      It at least reframes it into a “productive exercise” (eye-roll) for management who are resistant to addressing burnout because they think it’s for whiners.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        I really like this idea of identifying something to drop. Some form of triage that cuts back the underbrush (to mix a metaphor).

        Take a look at Liberating Structures to get ideas for ways to change up the power and communication in the room for this or however you decide to ask the question. I’ve had the advantage of training and our agency uses them often enough that some are pretty familiar, but you don’t have to be trained to be able to put some of them to use.

        The website is pretty dated but the structures are creative and energizing. You’ve possibly encountered some of these already.

        For what you describe and the idea of generating ideas for shedding some of the workload, 15% Solution might be a good one, 25/10, or 1-2-4-All. Looking at the case studies and the structures may give you ideas for a different way into the overall question/issue.

    4. Kitten*

      The things you mentioned are solutions to burn out. I would frame it around streamlining processes or ways to prioritize/de-prioritize activities.

      Just talking about burn out sounds depressing

  29. Practice Makes Parfait but Only if You've Got the Spoons*

    I’m in an industry where it’s common to have job candidates do a practical assignment so the hiring committee can get an idea of how they work. A short script or storyboard is common.

    Online portfolios are becoming more common in this industry as well.

    Since I do a practical assignment before being hired, it seems to me that work is fair game for use in my portfolio. I do change minor details and make sure no actual companies are named in portfolio pieces. I also put in a disclaimer asserting:
    1. my copyright,
    2. that the file exists solely as a portfolio piece for the purposes of job-seeking and has not been paid for, and
    3. the content is not guaranteed to be accurate.

    Am I missing anything? I am about to use an online activity I created for one such practical task to upskill on the authoring tool and would like to add it to my portfolio and LinkedIn.

    1. Alex*

      As long as the companies haven’t paid you for the assignments, and you didn’t sign anything that you wouldn’t use the work elsewhere, I would think it would be OK.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Good disclaimers. As long as you’re scrubbing proprietary information and putting those caveats, there’s no problem as far as I can see.

  30. Can't Sit Still*

    I coordinate cultural events throughout the year for my department as part of my job. I enjoy it a great deal, I’m good at it, and the department loves my events. Last month, one of our ERGs contacted me to see if I wanted to collaborate on an upcoming event. Sure, why not? My manager agreed that my department would pay for some cultural items, while the ERG would pay for lunch.

    Well, it turned out that by collaborate, she actually meant “completely take over your event and spend your department’s money,” because the ERG had exactly $100 allocated for this event for 150 people. She only let me know after the things I pre-ordered (because they sell out!) were delivered. Now I don’t have enough of a budget left for a decent lunch for the department. Not only that, the ERG has now backed out completely, so I have extra consumables and no way to distribute them.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I think it’s an Employee Resource Group. But my mind always goes to a unit if work or energy first.

      2. fish processor*

        ERG = Employee Resource Group (also known as Business Resource Network, Affinity Group, etc.)

        It’s a group of employees at a company who share a common identity and advocate for greater inclusion. Sometimes they’re primarily a social group; sometimes they focus on changing company policy; sometimes they focus on recruitment or other goals.

        Common groups are: women, African-American, LGBTQ, etc.

    2. fish processor*

      This sounds wildly frustrating! I’m sorry.

      If you’re looking for advice, I’d say: pull up the original agreement, talk with your manager, and figure out if/how to salvage the event.

      By the way, as a former ERG lead, ERGs are usually wildly under-resourced. It doesn’t excuse this situation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this ERG is led by burnt-out volunteers with less-than-a-shoestring budget.

  31. WheresMyPen*

    I’ve heard Alison say many times that spouses or romantic partners should never manage each other, but in a recent discrimination training I did (in the UK) it said this:

    “Everyone in a marriage or civil partnership has the same rights in all areas of the law,
    such as survivor pensions, flexible working, healthcare insurance, and maternity or paternity pay; and it’s discrimination if someone is treated unfairly because of this protected characteristic – for example – if an employer doesn’t offer a job or promotion to a suitably qualified person, just because that person would be reporting directly to their spouse or civil partner.”

    Am I misinterpreting it or is that saying the opposite, or at least that it’s fine to manage a spouse and to try to avoid the situation would actually be discrimination? What do you guys think? I assume this isn’t the case in the US?

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        And if there’s a way to give the promotion without having spouses report to each other, it should be explored.

        US and UK law might differ in this respect. A lot of employers have rules against nepotism, which means family members can’t work there.

        1. Antilles*

          That was my thought too. I wonder if it’s one of those things where the legal requirement can have work-arounds:
          For example, you can’t refuse to promote someone because they’d be managing their partner, but what you CAN do is promote them to an equal-tier job in in a different department. Or rearrange the reporting structure so the partner reports to Grandboss rather than their spouse. Set up clear protocols around the chain of command to minimize the opportunity for favoritism. Something along those lines.

          1. AJ*

            This would usually be the way to do it, yes. I’ve come across this situation once where I work, and what happened was, essentially, the husband was officially the wife’s line manager, but a) pay where I work is standardized nationally by grade anyway, b) he had no hiring or firing authority over her and c) all her annual reviews etc were conducted by another manager at his level.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I have a hard time believing that would stand up in court regardless of jurisdiction. What a bananas example to use for discriminatory behaviour.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      You’re going to need to speak to someone skilled in UK law to fully address this, but it does sound like the UK specifically precludes restricting spouses from working for each other. IE – you cannot have a company policy saying “no spouses may supervise each other”.

      That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. It introduces a lot of conflict of interest, imparity in access to management, and the ability to easily circumvent workplace checks & balances designed to prevent fraud and other problems. But that’s a problem for the UK’s equivalent of the EEOC, whatever it is. That also assumes that your discrimination training is accurate.

      Ultimately you’d need to talk to an actual legal person, unless there’s someone pretty skilled in UK HR in this comment section.

    4. Lady Danbury*

      I’m a UK/Commonwealth jurisdiction lawyer. Although this isn’t my area of expertise, the law isn’t anywhere near as cut and dried as the blanket statement above (it rarely is in any area of the law, lol). A recent Employment Appeal Tribunal decision (Ellis v. Bacon) clarified the test for discrimination based on marital status, which is whether someone has been treated less favorably specifically because they were married, not because they were married to a particular person. If someone in a close relationship that wasn’t marriage would have been treated the same way, then it likely isn’t discrimination on the grounds of marital status. So if managers are prohibited from managing anyone that they’re in a romantic relationship with, it’s unlikely to be found to be discrimination based on marital status. I’ll provide a link to a helpful analysis of the decision and how UK employers can apply it to workplace relationships as a comment.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Didn’t you ask this exact same question on Monday’s Labor Day thread?

      You were told the same things then, that yes, US law is different than UK law, and yes, you are misinterpreting it (at least, according to people who are familiar with it).

      What kind of different answer are you looking for?

      1. WheresMyPen*

        I’m having trouble with my comments not showing up, when I checked the Labor Day thread I couldn’t see my post so apologies, I didn’t intentionally ask more than once.

  32. Daisy*

    Hello!

    You may recall my adventures with my very sweet now-boyfriend and my desire to move to Germany.

    A question for you all– do you see any advantages to doing a Master’s program in the foreign country you are trying to move to, as a way of getting in the door with jobs, etc.? One of the problems I’ve been running into, from the US, is that it’s impossible to do any in-person networking (this is the way I’ve found most of my prior jobs), there aren’t any German classes locally past the early-intermediate level (B1), which I’ll hit soon, but most jobs want B2 German or better; and, (I’m just inferring that this is the case) since currently I’d be coming in as an entry-level person, they just don’t want to sponsor me for a visa for anything like this.

    A Master’s program would be cheap– cost of living+degree less than remaining in the US, plus get me to the country for two years to learn the language and make local connections. Any thoughts? Anyone else move to a foreign country by this route?

    1. Cordelia*

      Absolutely not an expert, but in my understanding student visas are completely different to working visas, and don’t help you get a foot in the door with jobs unless the qualification you get then makes you desirable enough for someone to sponsor you for a work visa. You need more than language fluency and local connections to get a work visa, you need specific, in-demand skills. Would your Masters give you these? Otherwise, you might well be expected to leave once you’ve completed your studies. I don’t know about Germany specifically though, really you should get expert immigration advice.

    2. Time for Tea*

      My partner works in a University in England. I think most of the post grad students in his department are from other countries now and a fair proportion do want to work in the UK for at least a period after graduation. The issue he finds somewhat frustrating with a number of the students is that their English language skills aren’t at a sufficient proficiency for understanding and communicating the technicalities of the subject at that level. So yes to doing a Masters abroad in general, so long as you can do yourself justice.

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I did, and have mixed feelings about it. TL;DR: I’m not a fan of the theory that a degree always guarantees a better job or any job at all, but I can see how studying in the UK might still have given me a leg up. And now for the longer pros and cons – you may need to take me with a pinch of salt as I moved over a decade ago.

      Positive: my Master’s program was in a subject I couldn’t have studied in my home country without going through another undergraduate degree first. I wanted to work in a specific industry, and hoped to speed up that process by getting a relevant qualification – but I ended up in a completely different sector in the end (which is still a result, as I graduated in a recession, and the country I moved from is an employment wasteland for young people). I do think the Masters helped me get my first entry-level office job, because employers at the time saw it as a plus that I could complete a degree in my second language; also, I came across quite articulate in speaking and producing formal documents, and I credit writing several essays in English for the latter. In comparison, my partner, who never finished university (and is WAY more intelligent and capable than me), went through a decade of food service and retail jobs after moving here; his way into an office job with higher pay was specialising in a specific area of his retail store work and being headhunted by a supplier.

      Negative: the quality of my program wasn’t the best. Partly my fault: in hindsight I didn’t choose the subject and institution very well, but it wasn’t as easy to research online back then. More prestigious universities would probably have given me more networking opportunities, and I wonder whether a big-name university on my CV would have got more interest from hiring managers, when looking for an entry-level job in my industry of choice. I also realise now that I had zero clues how to write a CV back then, and no one ever taught me, but the one thing I can say for sure is that neither my tutors, nor the careers service at the university I did attend, were any help.

      Wishing you all the best for your plans to move, I read a few of your comments before and found your story very sweet and wholesome!

    4. Union Rep*

      I looked very idly into doing this about a decade ago, and at the time this was actively encouraged by the German government. You could get more points toward permanent residency at the same level of language proficiency by being a student first than by getting a job. I think there were additional bonus points for getting certain degrees. Also IIRC EU companies normally need to prove that there are no viable domestic candidates before they can hire a foreign national, and already being in the country helps with that too. I think some of the bonus stuff was age-limited and it may have changed, so definitely investigate further, but if it’s financially feasible it’s probably the best path to an EU passport. I dropped the idea because I didn’t want to learn German!

    5. fish processor*

      A friend of mine recently got her master’s degree in Germany and subsequently got a job via grad school connections. She stayed there for 2 years on a work visa until the job imploded (it was a startup) and she had to leave.

      But, her experience shows it’s possible!

    6. Wolf*

      German here – I attended one of those Master’s programs that are in English. My classmates from other countries found that it was easier to enter the job market for several reasons:

      * employers will see that you’ve already been here for two years, so they’ll assume you want to stay for a while

      * you already know the everyday vocabulary in German and practiced it, which is worth more than a course

      * you’re already settled with the paperwork for staying here, health insurance etc, so your onboarding in the job will be easier

      I wish you all the best for your future!

  33. Busy Middle Manager*

    I quit my job of ten years with nothing lined up, but the final straw came this weekend and I had to retain a shred to dignity. I really hope this doesn’t hurt my job hunt if I’m trying to get into more established companies, and get out of dysfunctional smaller businesses.

    It’s been a rough year, mostly because there has been more and more complicated work and a ridiculously large proportion kept falling on my desk because other people lack urgency or computer skills to do it. Our team meetings have felt like babysitting sessions lately. I’ve already given up trying to train or delegate to some people, because it’s failed so many times. Upper management is often MIA and is so out of the loop on day-to-day work that they never help when I raise issues, so escalating anything is also out of the question.

    Then someone higher up called and wanted to dump their dog on me on Friday for the long weekend. Same person had given up a dog before, so I was afraid they would do the same with me, but they assured me they’d pick up the dog. They worded it like it was no big deal, so I fell for it.

    Well, I didn’t grasp that this dog wakes up at 6:30, doesn’t sleep much, and loves hour long walks. It also bit my parents’ dog when I tried to spend a day out, so I ended up spending the rest of the weekend alone with the dog, not sleeping, going on long walks. The not sleeping was the craziest part.

    Higher up at my company didn’t even offer money but ended up giving me $100 for 4 days/3 nights after I complained that the whole thing was weird, that he lied to me about how intense the dog sitting was going to be, and that it was weird he didn’t follow up on the dog or my parents’ dog’s bite (which was borderline stich territory but is thankfully healing without them). This is someone who just spent the second weekend in a row in a place like Palm Beach. $100. Same as I got from a middle class family 25 years ago.

    When he picked up the dog, I saw him for what he really is. The glazed over look on his face, the way he is consistently aghast when I say anything. The way he name drops posh places and doesn’t want to stay more than one minute in my area. It’s so obvious he views the non-rich as gross, based on all of his comments. I now see why they have issues with nannies etc. I was supposed to act like a little chess piece with no brain or life, waiting to be pushed around.

    I can’t deal with it. I quit. I’m disappointed because this was so ridiculous, it should have given remaining employees fodder to raise all of the issues they constantly complain about. But nope. I guess I am being scapegoated. “Busy Middle Manager says____” when it’s really their own thought. People I worked with for years are to afraid to say “hey boss man, you were a bit out of line.”

    I feel like none of the advice I get from people is useful. I am afraid I will have to explain this to future potential employees and end up looking like I’m the one who caused problems.

    1. WellRed*

      But you quit over the dog sitting situation? Not the dysfunctional job itself? If I’m reading that correctly, then of course it doesn’t give fodder for other employees to raise issues. I think you are better off out of there at any rate and maybe should stop communicating for while with your now former coworkers to give yourself some space from the job.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        Sounds like the dog was the final straw of a great many.

        The good news is, there’s no need to explain any of this as part of a job search. All that’s needed is “My previous job didn’t allow much room for growth and I’m taking some time off to pivot to more established companies.”

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Exactly. I’m keeping it up my sleeve as a story to tell if anyone questions me when I say “I am leaving a small dysfunctional company,” but I’m worried it will still make me look like drama. I guess I will have to try it out on an interview I don’t care much about and see how it goes!

          1. Kay*

            It will make you look like drama because this story has no place in an interview and is drama. Sit with the question as to why you would say “I am leaving a small dysfunctional company” in an interview, why it was a dog situation that lead you to quit, why you agreed to a dog situation in the first place, why you haven’t gotten out sooner, etc. I think it is going to be tied to how being in this situation for so long has distorted your view of what professional norms are and what should be expected of you in a healthy work environment.

            There is a huge arsenal of things to say that are professional like “there was no room for advancement”, “I really want to focus on X and Y, but my previous position was taking me away from that, which is why I’m really excited about this role” to “I’m looking for new challenges” and “there were significant changes in my role and I’m looking to do “whatever they are hiring for” instead – so to go with “I left a small dysfunction company” sounds like you need a major reset.

            I would suggest really digging into the “how did I get here?” question so the pattern doesn’t repeat itself. Are you afraid to say no? Are you afraid to stand up for yourself? Do you feel you don’t have other options? Then – why?

          2. Cordelia*

            Dasein9’s answer is great, you don’t need anything else. Don’t at any point say “I am leaving a small dysfunctional company” and definitely don’t try out the dog story. You don’t need to see how it goes, there’s no way of telling it that will make the interviewer think “this is definitely someone we want to hire”. The short version is “I agreed to look after my manager’s dog for a weekend and it went badly so I left my job”, the long version goes into all the things that have gone wrong in the job, and that’s not something an interviewer wants to hear.

          3. Irish Teacher.*

            I agree that I definitely wouldn’t say anything to suggest the company you are leaving is dysfunctional. It may well be the truth, it sure sounds like it is, but those interviewing you don’t know you or the company and have no way of knowing if it really was dysfunctional or if you have unreasonable expectations.

            I realise that is why you are holding onto the dog story, but even that leaves questions like why did you agree to do it? And they have no way of knowing if your view of the higher up is correct or not because what you picked up on are fairly subtle signs and not things you could really related in an interview.

            Do not criticise your former workplace and employer!

            From your username and some of your previous posts, I get the impression you have or have had reports of your own? Have you been involved in hiring? If so, how would you react if somebody told you they’d left a previous job because it was dysfunctional? Would it encourage you to employ them or would you have questions that would cause doubts for you?

            None of this is meant to suggest you were in any way the problem, just that somebody you tell the story too won’t necessarily know.

            Something like “I’m looking to pivot to a larger more established company with more room for growth and greater variety of projects as my previous companies have tended to be smaller and concentrate on somewhat niche projects” would sound better.

    2. Isabel Archer*

      Was this by any chance a “we’re like a family here” company? Expecting your employees to pet-sit is nuts.

  34. Fish out of water*

    My workplace (and region) operates in my second (non-English) language, but my job is to produce English-language products. I have the job specifically because my English writing is strong—in other words, speaking my second language not a strong component of my job and it’s not what I was hired to do. My comprehension is very good and I can communicate well in writing with my colleagues (it’s a remote job), but when speaking the language, I have a hard time stringing sentences together on the spot as vocabulary becomes more nuanced.

    I have my first networking event in this field next week, and obviously it will take place mainly in my second language! Due to the bilingual nature of the field and our clientele, everyone understands English, but I usually try to speak the lingua franca out of respect. Is it a good idea to get ahead of my shortcomings when I have to slip into English, or just let it go? I was thinking something like, “Sorry about that; sometimes I just can’t find the right word! I’m so lucky to work in an industry where my second language improves by the day,” but I don’t want to derail conversations either!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Unless the place you’re in has a strong anti-English bias – in the general national culture or the specific work culture – I think you’re fine. I did basically the same thing, in 2 different languages.

      Just demonstrate some humility in the moment, and if they teach you the local word repeat it a couple times, say thanks, and try to internalize it – especially if it’s something that’s specific or important for your work.

      1. Fish out of water*

        This is great advice, thank you! How to respond in the moment was what I was missing, and this is such a gracious way to handle it.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I might do less apologizing, and more using it as a learning opportunity. “Blah blah blah–how would you put that in Vulcan? Thanks. [Repeat Vulcan phrase here.]”

      1. Fish out of water*

        What a fantastic approach! It’s a field that values learning highly, so I’ll take this angle! Thank you.

    3. Cordelia*

      you don’t need to go into so much detail. I’d say, in the second language “I’m sorry, I’m not sure how to say this in SecondLanguage…” and then say it English. Then back into second language, unless the other person continues in English and is clearly comfortable and happy to do so.
      In that case, at the end of the conversation you could say “thanks for speaking in English, I’m so lucky to work in an industry where my second language improves by the day” if you felt the need, but to say it mid-conversation would be derailing and make you the topic of conversation, rather than the actual thing the person wants to be talking to you about.

    4. Daisy*

      My brief experience with German/English bilingualism in Germany in professional settings is that there is a *lot* of code-switching between German and English in any given situation, even when it’s only two native Germans. Obviously cultures are different and YMMV but I don’t think there would be a huge problem with your proposed approach.

      1. Justin*

        As a language academic by training, I would tell you that’s better described as “translanguaging” and code switching more like, “what you say to colleagues as a Black person vs what you say to family.”

        Not being a jerk, I’m a teacher, trying to be informative!

        1. Daisy*

          I am a linguist by profession and my use of the word ‘code-switching’ is accurate in this situation.

          1. Justin*

            I suppose it’s not wrong just that these days TL is used more often but I guess we’re just expert’ing at each other and I’ll agree to disagree.

    5. Anon for This*

      I used to be bilingual, but my second language is rusty. In this situation I generally start with pleasantries in the second language, use a practiced phrase about the decay of my skills, and let the discussion flow – sometimes we switch to English, sometimes they help me with the language, sometimes we speak a mix of both. As long as you are friendly, and admit mistakes, it all works out.

    6. Kotow*

      If it’s that bilingual of an industry/location, I wouldn’t apologize; just use the English word and move on. It’s likely obvious that you’re a competent, but non-native speaker, and in an environment where the default language will be the non-English one, native speakers will almost always just want to get it back to the other language even if you’re speaking it imperfectly. The thing I want to avoid in situations like this is that the conversation defaults to English because I couldn’t remember **one** word. But in general, the fear of this happening tends to be greater than the reality and I’ve generally been able to keep the conversation in the other language in spite of vocabulary gaps. This is specifically with Polish and German though, so it may depend upon the language in question. Long story short: this is something we notice more about ourselves than other people notice about us. If you’re around a B2 level, you’re competent in the language and can handle it without apologizing.

    7. kalli*

      Honestly it’s not that big of a deal – if you don’t know the word in your second language you say it in English, and go back to your second language when you can. Often people will tell you the word, or sometimes, it’s more easily expressed in English anyway!

      But honestly, if I have to switch languages to convey something when I’m in a technically bilingual space, most people don’t even notice as long as they understood what I’m saying, so unless you want to ask what the word is or you’re truly stuck and have to ask for clarification, I wouldn’t worry about excusing yourself or drawing attention it and just do your best.

      Most people are really encouraging and helpful when you try to speak their language, and some people get super excited about practising their English with you as well, so truly, not a big deal.

  35. hypoglycemic rage*

    HI! I’m hoping for some guidance. I am essentially an admin at a law firm. My co-admin was let go in June, and she created a lot of the spreadsheets we use. One of them is an inventory of the printers and toners we use. We have two different toners in stock, and when I asked my co-admin if we should stock the main toner, she said as long as we have a backup toner for a printer, we’re good to go.

    I guess my boss (the office manager) was not involved in this spreadsheet and hadn’t seen it at all, because last week she’s asking me a bunch of questions that I do not know the answers to – like why do we have two toners, what the difference between them is, do we need to have two toners in stock, what the difference between them is. Since I couldn’t answer her questions, or the answers I gave were not acceptable, I am now being tasks to research this and find the answers.

    But I have hit a wall. I’ve tried to look at the printers themselves, and can find nothing different about the toners in them other than the names. I tried to look up what the different letters mean, and can’t find clear answers. I reached out to our supplier (general customer service, not our specific agent) and was told the only difference between the toners was the number of pages they produce (yield).

    But I am worried if I take all the information I have gathered to my boss, she won’t like it because it’s not a clear answer. The thing is, I wasn’t the one who created the spreadsheet. My co-admin was here before my boss, and I don’t know what the contract we have with the supplier is about – maybe there’s something in there about this. I also think it’s a little odd that my boss didn’t know anything about this, but maybe that’s normal as an office manager who handles the “big picture” kind of stuff, and the admins do more of the day-to-day…. So, if anyone has any insight or tips on where to go from here, please let me know.

    1. WellRed*

      The office manager is a micromanager without enough to do. Are they two different types/brands/sizes of printers? Then say that’s why. What a colossal waste of your time.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        we have several printers around the office, several of which match each other. they might have the same toners 1 and 2, but not all of them have the same one in them (one might have toner 1, but the other might have toner 2, the backup).

        apparently my boss had no knowledge of any of this until last week and now is demanding answers….. and i feel like anything less than “we use (toner 1) in this printer because of (specific reasons)” won’t be good enough.

        1. Cordelia*

          It sounds like the boss noticed that similar printers have different toners and asked why. You didn’t know, so you checked with the supplier and found out that the toners are equivalent but just print different amounts. Have you explained this to the boss but she is still unsatisfied? Is there something in the tone of her questions that is not coming across in your post? Otherwise I don’t see why it’s causing you so much stress tbh.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Wait but why is this a problem? You found the answer, the answer is one toner prints more pages than the other and sometimes they have different prices. Both work for the printers equally well per the supplier so you don’t need to stock both. I think you’re overthinking this!

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        that’s what i’m thinking too, that as long as we have something for each printer that works, we are ok. but apparently….

    3. MsM*

      I think you do have a fairly clear answer – the only difference you’ve been able to discover is that one can supposedly print more pages before running out, but you’d have to check the supplier contract to be 100% sure there isn’t an explanation in there. And if no one has any background or documentation on that, including who the supplier even is, then I think it’s reasonable to assume that it’s not terribly important and you can do whatever your boss thinks is best or gives you the leeway to decide.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        i personally think it’s fine if we have two toners, as long as one of them is in stock and everything is working just fine, but i feel like i am on a wild goose chase trying to find out why we specifically have two different toners listed.

    4. Cordelia*

      Your manager doesn’t seem to be asking you “a bunch of questions” though, she is asking why you have 2 types of toners and what the difference between them is. You didn’t know when she asked, so you checked with the supplier and now you do know – one prints more pages than the other, but they both work in your printers. Can’t you go back and tell her this?

      2. hypoglycemic rage*

        she’s asking questions about the printers specifically that we have in the office, like if the two toners are installed in each printer, why some of the toners on the inventory spreadsheet are marked with a 0 but why don’t we have a backup, or if we don’t need one, why not?

        we do have backups: toner 2??? idk why we initially had two toners for each of these printers bc i wasn’t the one who made the spreadsheet???

        1. WellRed*

          “Micromanager, I don’t know why we have two different toners, that decision was made before me. Going forward, do you have a preference on which? Toner a does this and costs x, toner b does this and costs x.”

          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            I don’t even know the specific pricing. like, I might make the call to the supplier to order the new toner if we’re out, but they bill the account we have, so I have no idea what these toners cost at all. (we use a specific supplier, so looking at something like amazon wouldn’t matter.)

        2. Spreadsheet Queen*

          So, it sounds like either will work just fine, and there is just a difference between number of pages printed before the toner runs out. Presumably it’s generally cheaper per page to get the toner that prints more pages, but maybe there are sometimes sales on the one that prints fewer pages that makes it cheaper. Or maybe there was a supply chain issue at one time. Or in a perfect world, you put the “fewer pages” toner in the printers that get used less frequently (although I don’t see the point – toner cartridges are not like the ink jets that dry up if you don’t print all the time.) Unless the supplier tells you information otherwise, I would use the “the differences are only in the number of print jobs you get out of it, and we likely have both due to occasional more favorable pricing on one or the other.”

          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            this all makes a ton of sense!!! I figured it was due to things like cost or supply issues over time.

    5. Syfy Geek*

      Is one of them a “high yield” toner? Exactly the same as the other, but gives you more pages per cartridge and usually only has 1 letter different in the name. It could be easily explained as one wasn’t available so the other was ordered. And if you have the space, it’s a good idea to have a second toner on hand for those times when someone helps by putting the last one in and doesn’t tell anyone. Or there’s global event that impacts supply lines and a toner could take months to get to you.

      Since you didn’t create the spreadsheet, and the person who did predated you and your boss, AND is gone now, tell your boss what you do know (sound confident) and that it’s an ongoing project to makes sure you know what’s on the spreadsheet and to update/correct it if needed.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        yes the two different toners we have for each printer IS just a letter or two apart! I feel like she’s going to want answers as to why we’re using these toners for these printers specifically, but we shall see. I am making a little report of everything I found and I am going to send it to her, and we’ll see what she says.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Just because she wants the info, does not mean you have it, or can get it, or that it’s actually going to be useful to her. If she does come back with (weirdly detailed!) questions about past decisions you weren’t involved in, refocus the conversation on what she wants to do going forward.

          Manager: But why do we have identical printers with two different toner cartridges? Why do we stock both?

          You: From what I have found, the only practical difference is number of pages printed, so we do not need to maintain stocks of different toners or track which printers get which cartridge. My assumption is that we have multiple types due to price or availability differences when my predecessor placed orders, but I really can’t do more than speculate. Going forward, would you like me to prioritize (preferred solution)?

          Your preferred solution could be:
          – order whichever is most economical at that moment, and make a note that all printers can take both types of cartridge?
          – order only Cartridge 123-XL, so we can simplify our inventory?
          – prefer ordering 123-XL because it prints more pages, but if there is limited availability then fall back to 123-M so we can always maintain enough inventory?

          There’s no Wrong Answer here. All of these options will work just fine. You should recommend whatever is going to be easiest for you to manage, because you are the one actually handling the process, and it’s very likely that your manager will rubber-stamp your recommendation, as long as you make one. If she doesn’t, then it’s up to her to tell you how she would prefer you do it.

          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            I love this, thank you so much (and thank you to everyone else who commented.

            I have sent a little report with some of the questions answered, so fingers crossed…..

    6. Gyne*

      So – those sound like reasonable questions. From the outside, it seems weird have to have to worry about ordering and stocking two different toners, especially as you found out, they’re basically interchangeable. It seems like the office manager found out and is questioning whether the time and expense of maintaining two different toner supplies is reasonable. I don’t see it as micromanagement at all, but maybe I’m missing something. Realizing something that takes up time and resources is possibly unnecessary and questioning why it needs to be that way is pretty smart on your manager’s part?

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        Yeah, I get that. But she’s asking me specific questions about why the specific toners are being used.

        I don’t know. I was not the person who made the spreadsheet. I don’t do any ordering for the toners (other than placing the calls, and even then they don’t say which toner we’re getting, and the account we have is billed after I make the call and I don’t have access to that either, but I assume my boss does). I don’t know why the toners themselves are used, maybe it’s because we got a better deal on them at some point?? Or maybe it’s a supply issue? They all seem interchangeable with one another so at some point, I don’t really know what to say other than that. I am not my former co-admin and I can’t go back in time and ask her about this. (And also I’m surprised we went this long without my boss wondering about this.)

        Again, I just do not know. There’s a lot with this project that I don’t know.

    7. hypoglycemic rage*

      UPDATE:
      so i sent her my notes and she came back with a bunch more questions (related to the specific printers and toners i listed along with their capacity and can they work in other, specific printers, some of which i feel she can answer on her own by looking at the spreadsheet).

      i was only working with specific toners we had 0 in stock for (for toner 1) but i guess she meant the entire office. which is fine, but that was not what we had initially discussed.

      but i explained, in the notes, that if toner 1 is marked as 0, as long as we have something for toner 2, that’s fine. she then said that we should have a backup toner for every printer onsite. which we do, toner 2???

      the spreadsheet has the following columns: the printer name, ID, location in the office, model name of printer, toner 1’s serial number and the number we have in stock, toner 2’s serial number and the number we have in stock. toner 2 is the backup to toner 1 (both are different).

      idk…. i gave her answers and she somehow gave more questions.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        If I were in your shoes, I’d take a step back and ask for the big picture. This is probably easier to do in a conversation versus an email chain. “hey boss, we’ve been back and forth on this a bunch. I think it would help me to understand what the big picture goal is, so I can get you answers and we can figure out a new process that supports that goal. Right now, we’re trying to fix a system neither of us designed and that doesn’t seem to be fulfilling our needs.”

        1. Hypoglycemic rage*

          Thank you for this. I’ll think about this over the weekend, but I did email her and ask what she meant by “backup” and if that meant having multiple of the same toner, or having 5 of toner 1 and 3 of toner 2 (I gave specific toners we have).

          Apparently she’s been thinking of the two toners as totally different things. (?!?!?) She said she knows the data is messy, but that’s why we have to figure this out.

          It was definitely not made clear that this entire time, she thinks all the toners are separate entities….. or that I was supposed to do the entire office, not just certain printers.

  36. Harper Relaxed*

    Perhaps a silly question, but I’ve been obsessed with “Industry” on HBO, and it’s weird to me seeing everyone on the show dressed not just formally but more or less identically – white shirts/blouses, black/navy trousers/skirts. I can’t imagine any workplace being like this in 2024, even in banking – is this a UK thing? A finance thing? (Am I wrong to assume everyone in finance is wearing Patagonia vests?) Is any contemporary office in real life ~actually~ this strict about dress code?

    1. WellRed*

      I just picked back up watching that show and hadn’t noticed that but you are right! Also, am I the only one who finds ALL of the characters unlikeable?

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Sometimes this is just a show biz thing — having everybody in a uniform like that makes it possible to do something with costuming another character that makes their differences stand out starkly and right away.

      1. Antilles*

        I agree, this is almost certainly a show biz/costuming choice. Even in very formal workplaces like finance, it’d be incredibly abnormal for everybody to dress near-identically.
        But for a show, it provides a nice ‘base’ template to color off of. An outsider (e.g., a client) can be more eye-catching because she wears a dark colored blouse rather than a white one. You can do subtle reinforcement of, say, a character’s story arc of disagreeing with authority by replacing his white shirts with pale blue instead. And other similar subtle (or not-so-subtle) costuming tricks.

    3. TPS Reporter*

      I’m laughing at the thought of bland outfits being the weirdest thing about the show! It could be a comedic/stylistic choice on the part of the creators to have people in pretty boring outfits doing outrageous things.

    4. beep beep*

      I work for a large bank that has many in person locations in my city. In the location I work in, which is audit professionals and software devs, people wear button downs, slacks, fleece jackets, very business casual. Whenever I visit the tower named after the company, where more executive level people work, people are absolutely wearing business formal black and navy. I have a blazer that rots in my closet because I only take it out when I have to visit.

  37. Alexis Rose*

    First time managing, I’ve been in the role for a few months now and recently its become apparent that there are some ingrained cultural “cliques”/factions of toxicity that exist within my team. These are issues that apparently have always been present, but ebb and flow in terms of how disruptive it is. Some examples of what I’m seeing or being told about are snide comments about what other people are working on, belittling projects or initiatives that are being led by someone another person doesn’t like/respect. Its mean girl bullshit and it needs to stop.

    I’m trying to tackle this head on and would appreciate some advice on whether I’m on the right track or should consider anything else.

    My approach so far:
    1. Chat with each member of the team (there are a few more conversations I need to have, some folks were on vacation this week) to get their sense of the issues and drama.

    2. For folks that I have already observed poor behavior, my chat with them is going to be “I have noticed x behavior, this is inappropriate for y reasons. I need you to do z going forward, or we will be having conversations about performance improvement plans.” I’m also going to ask them what they have been noticing or experiencing, in case they have also been the target of some snide comments/bullying (which I strongly suspect is the root of some of this discontent, people reacting to how they’re being treated). Some of my conversations so far have been illuminating in terms of identifying problems that I wasn’t even aware of. I am going to have to circle back and have the direct conversation about appropriate workplace conduct/respect with some folks I’ve already chatted with.

    3. Once I’ve spoken with everyone, had the direct chats that need to be had, I’m going to address the whole group at our next all-team meeting (we meet every two weeks as a whole team). At that meeting, I’m going to explain what I’ve done (chatted with each person individually, and addressed any problems directly with folks on an individual basis) but that now I expect everyone to abide by our workplace code of conduct and elevate issues to their supervisor/manager (me) rather than lash out or nitpick their colleagues.

    So basically, getting all sides of the story, gather as much info as possible, directly address behaviors that I’m aware of or have been brought to my attention, and then set the standard with the whole group about expectations going forward.

    Is this too much? Not enough? Am I missing anything? This toxic environment is incredibly demoralizing for everyone so I really need to address it, and I’m trying to be proactive, but this is my first time dealing with this kind of dynamic as the manager, so I would appreciate some feedback/advice!

    1. MsM*

      It’s a good start, I think. Whether it’s enough depends on how resistant people are to change and how much institutional backing you have to deal with the ones who refuse to get with the program.

    2. ferrina*

      This seems like a really good start. Set up regular 1:1 check-ins with each team member (ideally weekly, but every-other week if you need to). This isn’t just a drama check-in, it’s a check in about how things are generally going. How is their bandwidth, is there any fyis you should be aware of, random questions they have, how’s the culture feeling this week.

      Long-term, you already know that you should be reinforcing the expectations you set by calling things out. Also, look out for people going outside your team- if the cliques extend beyond your team, you might situations like Betty on your team told James on Other Team that Jordan was awful, and James told June on Other Team, and now Jordan is getting the cold shoulder from June. Be willing to gently sit in meetings and lend authority where needed.

      Also, think carefully about the project assignments. Don’t put mortal enemies together, but don’t let the cliques control the assignments. Reward good behavior by having people who work well with others have interesting assignments (some managers accidentally punish the people who get along with everyone- “oh, Cassie gets along with everyone and Donna is really prickly, so I’ll put Cassie with Donna on all the assignments because she’s the only one that Donna will work with.” No. Cassie doesn’t want to work with Donna on everything, Cassie should get the opportunity to work with professional people as well).
      Same with professional development opportunities- working well with others is a requirement before someone gets a development opportunity, and definitely required before they are considered for a promotion.

      Make sure your boss has your back in all this. It might be helpful to keep running documentation just in case someone decides to go nuclear and go to HR.
      Good luck!

      1. Alexis Rose*

        Project assignments have been tricky for this exact reason, it was easier to do the seating chart for my wedding with divorced parents on both sides!

    3. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I expect everyone to abide by our workplace code of conduct and elevate issues to their supervisor/manager (me) rather than lash out or nitpick their colleagues.

      Can you share the relevant sections of your workplace code of conduct?

      I’m also reminded of what Lisa said above in response to DJ Abbott – what you’re perceiving as “lashing out” or “nitpicking” may be part of a culture where engineers hold each other accountable. You’re new; it’s good that you are planning to confirm your impression that this “demoralizing” effect is being caused by what you think it must be, and I would add that you should question why each person comments this way to their coworkers (without the leading-question framing of “this is a bad thing to do”), looking for common threads that may indicate a culture clash. You do have some influence as a manager over the culture in a workplace, but you need to consider where these people are coming from (what background outside the company or which business units within the company) and how a culture imposed from the top will affect how they get along with coworkers under other managers. (This may lead to a conversation with your peers.)

      I’d also caution against instructing subordinates they cannot speak to each other (if comfortable with that manner of communication) directly instead of to you; avoid even implying (such as by mentioning it right after the “workplace code of conduct”) that disciplinary action would be imposed for such an action! How their work is done (not just how they’re told to do it but the process by which it actually happens) relates to their interests as employees, which means it falls under “working conditions”, and they have a legally-protected right to discuss these matters with each other. You can’t shut that down just because you happen to feel it’s mean; a properly-worded workplace conduct policy can empower them to request “stop that” themselves, and you can encourage them to exercise that option (instead of reciprocating), but if you start appointing people to police others for what may be a cultural difference or (as Lisa noticed) membership in a protected class, that could not just make the toxic infighting worse but bring liability onto your company from it. You can also encourage people to give their feedback constructively, and even organize trainings where everyone practices this – in fact, even before feedback, they should be discussing with each other “How can we address this?” instead of just pooling their individual gripes.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        Thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback, this gave me a lot to think about. Particularly the comments about discussions about working conditions, empowering individuals to handle interpersonal conflict themselves, training for the team on how to give constructive criticism, and being sensitive to protected classes.

        There is a training course provided for supervisors/managers about managing performance in a diverse team that I’m also going to take.

    4. DottedZebra*

      This is a good plan overall, but I wouldn’t threaten people with performance improvement plans in your first conversation, since this sounds like it’s the first time this has ever been addressed with them. It will make people defensive and angry if their bad behavior is in response to other people treating them badly with impunity to this point.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        Very fair. My own frustration is getting the best of me, which I’m trying to be self-aware of, but it peeks through now and then.

  38. A non-mouse*

    For those of you who were/are/will be nursing mothers, how open would you want your recently-back-from-mat-leave leaders to be about needing to pump? I’m just back from mat leave and hold an unofficial leadership position on my team – no direct reports but folks respect my views and accept my influence on team direction. I’m also regularly taking pump breaks to collect milk for my baby. I figure I have an opportunity to help normalize this for the moms who come after me, but I ALSO don’t want to be That Person who TMIs all over the place. My default stance is to be matter-of-fact about it if/when it comes up, like of COURSE I have to take care of this thing, but would love to hear from others if a specific track would resonate with you more.

    (Would also love to hear from non-parents and never-parents about where you view the TMI line to be.)

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Non Mother Woman, TMI line: Any details beyond “oh I can’t meet then, I need to pump then how about at 2pm instead”, please do not share any details about volume, clogged ducts, soreness or other issues. I wouldn’t want to hear about Gary’s marathon chafed nips, I equally don’t want details on nursing related ones.

      For calendar, I’d lean toward just blocking on likely pumping times as “busy” rather than “pumping” less on TMI and more just so you don’t have to deal with those who don’t understand biology and think pumping is optional time wise.

      1. WellRed*

        Seconding all this! Also, please don’t pump in front of me. I’ve seen comments here about wearables being barely noticeable.

        2. ferrina*

          Seconding the not-pumping in front of me. I get distracted if my boss is pumping during a meeting. And yes, that’s technically my problem, but if it’s something that can be avoided, I appreciate it a lot. (and that goes for a lot of things- I don’t want to meet with you while you are working out, or at the doctor’s office, etc, if we could have easily met at a different time).

        3. A non-mouse*

          IMO wearables are barely noticeable for those with a lithe-r figure, but it is VERY obvious for busty ladies (I’m in this camp). At least the Willow Go is noticeable.

        4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Amen all around – You don’t need to make up cutesy euphemisms, we’re all adults here and I’m not gonna clutch my pearls if you say you’re stepping out to pump and will be back in a while, but I also don’t need to hear the personal details and I definitely don’t want to be present for it.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            (in fact, please don’t make up the cutesy euphemisms. I had a coworker who would not stop making cow jokes about herself and she thought she was hilarious, but it was really awkward and unpleasant pretty much from the jump.)

      2. A non-mouse*

        Thank you! Yes, I don’t plan on (or want to!) share any of the medical details, and my workplace has a very nice mother’s room where I can pump in private. My calendar is private and just shows as “busy” during times I have reserved to pump.

    2. Kitten*

      I think you should go for it. Having to pump is the first inconvenience of many years of being a working parent. Claim your space and then you can make room for people who are in a position to do so.

      Babies and toddlers are constantly sick, there are performances and award ceremonies during work all the time. You’d think it would get better but my daughter starts high school at 9am and has games at 3:30. Parent teacher conferences, a different camp every week, f#^*%ing braces with monthly appointments. Add in some aging parents and your own health needs. This is just the beginning. Take your pumping time proudly and feed that beautiful baby. She/he/they will need you to take time off for their driving test before you know it.

    3. ferrina*

      Former pumper here.

      I think the matter-of-fact is the way to go. Treat it like other health accomodations- tell your staff the stuff that impacts them, and you can choose how much of the rest you want to share (only to opted-in audiences). A common conundrum for coworkers is “do I need to worry about interrupting pumping?” If you can, put calendar holds during your pumping time so folks know when you’re not available/less available. Let them know how interruptible you are during these times. Some folks are not at all interruptible when they are pumping, and some folks are fine with having meetings, so let them know what your comfort level is (if you are not sure, start more conservative and go from there. it’s easier than the other way around)

    4. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

      I am currently back at work and pumping and I agree with what others have said. I think it needs to be normal to be able to say simply say you need to pump and then be able to take that time without any guilt. while I will occasionally do Zoom meetings during my pumping everything is set up so no one can tell and I actually don’t ever mention it because I don’t want it normalized that someone might pump while taking a meeting. I can do while pumping but not everyone can

      1. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

        also I do block off my calendar and label it pumping but it’s set to private so people only see that I’m busy

      2. ExecRecruiter*

        I’m also currently pumping and working. Most of the time I work remotely and am able to easily pump around my meetings, but during in-person times, I put holds on my calendar and if people wanted to schedule then, I just matter of factly said, “I can’t meet then – I’ll be pumping” and ask them to pick a different time.

        As far as how I talk about it outside of conflicts, I’m pretty open about it when it comes up (a peer and I were discussing how tired we were earlier this week and I mentioned a big part of why I’m tired is that I’m waking up at 2am to pump), but I never talk details or pump during calls (video or audio).

    5. Lemon Chiffon*

      Pumping mom here. I am very up front with my coworkers because I work on a public service desk and need coverage. Basically, I just say “I need to take a pump break, can you cover me at X time” and we work it out. My supervisor has completely ignored the entire situation, which has been weird, but no one seems to care if I just say that I need to take a break to pump.

    6. Anon for this one*

      Well, I’m a parent but have never been a nursing mom, and thus am very specifically excluded from people you want to hear from, but would go for take the time you need, when you need it, but don’t share lots of details – not because pumping is weird but just because they aren’t relevant. You’re pumping, fine, end of story.

    7. EMP*

      I work in a very male dominated industry and my level of explanation varies person to person, so remember that you don’t need to say the same thing to every person!
      With people I haven’t interacted with before, and may not interact much with in the future, I’m vague (I’m busy then, I need to take a break, I’ll be back in 30 minutes). With people who I’m more comfortable with I’m more frank (I need a pump break). Something that feels in the middle to me is “I need to use the mother’s room”.

  39. Marie E.*

    My company recently approved my request to pay for me getting my Certified in Planning and Inventory Management (CPIM) designation through the Association for Supply Chain Management (ASCM). I just got the study materials and I going to start this weekend.

    Has anyone else taken this exam before? Was it harder or easier than you thought it would be? Is 6 months a good goal for me to set towards being ready with self study? Any advice would be helpful as I start diving into this.

  40. Applesauced*

    I am expecting and received a gift from a client.

    They physically handed me a card and gift card after a meeting. I emailed a thank you note to the people who signed the card.

    Is that enough? Should I send a physical thank you to their office? (I have a running list of gifts to send notes with a photo once baby is here)

    1. HonorBox*

      Given that it is a client, I think I’d send a physical thank you. It doesn’t need to be a lengthy message by any means, but it is a nice touch especially when you’ll be working with them going forward.

  41. Heffalump*

    I freely admit that I’m venting here. My employer, a manufacturer of industrial machinery, was acquired by another company a few years ago. The change has been mostly positive, but one aspect hasn’t been. Tech support used to be handled in-house, and to some extent it still is—sometimes there’s no substitute for getting hands-on with an end user. But the helpdesk is doing a fair amount of tech support via phone, MS-Teams, remoting into the end user’s computer, especially since many of us went remote or hybrid with the pandemic.

    This isn’t a problem in itself. What is a problem is that many of the techs are Indian (maybe they’re based in India for all I know), and their spoken English is very poor. On quite a few occasions I’ve had to ask a tech to repeat the same statement several times before I could understand it.

    I fired off an email to the head of IT a few weeks ago. She said they’re aware of the issue, and they give the techs English-language coaching as needed. I think their English-language deficits require a lot more than coaching. I’m not holding my breath that the situation will improve. We wouldn’t consider it acceptable for our support folks (who deal with the end users of our machines) to speak English so poorly. I’m very frustrated.

    1. Ali + Nino*

      yayyy off shoring (jk). more power to the people in other countries getting better-paying jobs but this is one possible consequence.
      I’m not sure whether your challenge is due to misunderstanding their accent and pronunciation or due to the way they use the language (ie their phrasing, word choice, grammar, etc). If different accents are the issue, would it be possible to bypass this issue by using a chat app/messenger so you could type instead of talk?

      1. Heffalump*

        Challenge is due to misunderstanding their accent and pronunciation. We’re actually interacting in MS-Teams, so typing at the same time is theoretically possible. You and I presumably wouldn’t have a problem understanding each other’s speech, and we’d find that the speed and immediacy of talking would be better than typing. If I went with typing on these support calls, I’d also have to arrange things to show the Teams window and the window for the app I’m having a problem with. IOW, the downside of their poor English is better than the downside of typing. Two sub-optimal choices.

    2. ThatOtherClare*

      My biggest recommendation is to accept that you can’t control other people, but you can control your own actions. So why not try and alleviate your own frustration by seeking out some podcasts/TV/Netflix/YouTube content on your favourite topics that contain people with light Indian accents (ones that you can actually understand)? I’m nor saying you need to watch Bollywood movies all weekend, but e.g. if you like cooking shows maybe you could find an episode or two with some Indian guest chefs, or if you’re interested in sport shooting you might enjoy watching the interviews of the medal-winning Indian Olympic shooters. The more you hear an accent the easier it becomes to parse, which is why your brain can interpret the mangling of ‘Guh’ die mayt’ from Crocodile Dundee. If you think about it, the accent isn’t less strong, we’ve all just heard it more often. Why bother being trapped relying on the limp efforts of your new company’s IT team when you can improve the situation youself by acquiring a new skill? Should you have to? No. But if it’s this or nothing and you’re going to be watching something anyway, why not help out future you at the same time? It just makes sense.

      1. Heffalump*

        Well, India has hundreds of languages. Hearing a native Hindi speaker probably wouldn’t help me understand native Gujarati/Punjabi/Tamil speakers any better. If I do go with this idea, the subject matter of the interview (cooking, sport shooting, etc.), probably doesn’t matter.

        Here’s an interesting web page about how Danish speakers can’t understand people speaking Danish as a second language if their pronunciation and grammar are even slightly off:

        https://www.danishnet.com/culture/so-you-want-learn-danish/

        At least I’m not a native Danish speakers, and the techs aren’t trying to speak Danish to me.

        I explicitly made the argument (in my original post) to the head of IT that such poor English would be unacceptable in our support people. I’m not holding my breath that things will change, but I can speak my mind.

        1. Joron Twiner*

          In my experience, there is enough similarity in “Indian English” regardless of other languages spoken that getting familiar with the commonalities will be helpful for newcomers. If you are able to distinguish Gujarati, Hindi, and Tamil then you are probably familiar with Indian accents in English. But if you are totally unfamiliar with Indian accents in English, ThatOtherClare’s suggestion is a good start.

          1. Heffalump*

            I’m aware that Gujarati, Hindi, and Tamil exist. I didn’t say I could distinguish the accents!

    3. Part time lab tech*

      When I first got together with my Indian husband, he told me Indians have a neutral accent. It took him a little while of living in Australia to realise why I found it so funny.
      Personally, I find the aspirated sounds particularly hard to decipher. I recently had an Indian doctor named Gautam. I had to ask him to repeat his name because it sure sounded like Gotham.
      On the other hand I speak fast and find it difficult to slow down so difficulty in understanding accents runs both ways.

      1. Cj*

        I haven’t Indian Doctor Who has a four syllable last name, and goes by just the last two syllables. I don’t know if that was his choice from the beginning, or if he finally gave up and just had people call him the part they could understand and pronounce.

  42. Gandalf the Nude*

    A not insignificant portion of my colleagues are like allergic to forwarding emails. Instead of forwarding, they’ll copy and paste the message–original sender’s signature and everything–into a fresh email and send it to the relevant party. Sometimes with the original sender CCed.

    If there’s anyone here that does this, I would love to know your reasoning! I don’t have the kind of relationship with most of these colleagues where I could ask them.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I have done it from time to time as a way to break the chaining algorithm & display paradigm of the email clients. I also do it to remove confidential information or irrelevant back-and-forths way down in the email chain if I don’t want other people to see that.

      1. Gandalf the Nude*

        Those I totally understand! The vast, vast majority of these are already new threads, though. We also use a “Client Management System” that catalogs these emails so anyone working with that client can see their contact history, so if they’re doing it for confidentiality reasons, they’re being pretty silly. (Ironically, one of these people does have a habit of forwarding internal communications to clients without any sort of redaction, which ends up looking sloppy at best.)

    2. CTT*

      I do that when there is a long thread that I don’t want the person receiving the forwarded message to see (either because it includes information they’re not party to, or it’s just unnecessarily long and I worry they’ll get sucked into reading the whole thing and miss the pertinent info)

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        I just delete the stuff lower down in the email I’m forwarding if it’s a big chain that would distract or I genuinely don’t want them to read something (like the part where their name came up that I’m now addressing much more professionally). I may put in to indicate there was more content but the email header itself in the last one included would likely make it clear it was a reply.

        I don’t send someone a distracting historical archive unless they need it for reference. I’ve been at least somewhat amused a couple of times when someone just forwarded a chain without realizing that I’d been discussed in it lower down, or someone else looped me in via cc without reading the whole discourse. Thanks for letting me know your real thoughts, Ken, I’ll keep that in mind.

    3. Industry Behemoth*

      I wish some people would be more careful about forwarding emails.

      Most of the time, it’s so they don’t have to create a new message and/or retype or copy the recipient’s email address. But they should be mindful of the earlier content of the thread, especially if the email is going to an outsider.

      People tend to communicate more informally among themselves, then they would in something they knew an outsider was going to see.

  43. Anonymous Educator*

    Over the last year, I’ve known a lot of folks (at my org and at other orgs) who’ve been laid off. If you’ve been laid off recently, what have you found most helpful/supportive for former co-workers (or even friends who haven’t worked with you) to do for you?

    1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      Checking in. A few friended me on Facebook, which is nice since I don’t want to lose touch. One former co-worker makes a regular practice of reposting and highlighting job ads on LinkedIn, so I’d get notifications of leads. That was helpful because, well, leads, but also because looking over the leads helped me hone the language of my resume and cover letters.

      Repost things your friends are interested in to help them engage and keep their network fresh.

    2. charleyhorse*

      Send a message. When I was laid off what hurt the most was the complete ghosting by people I had regular conversations with for years. The few people who did reach out: I remember them!

    3. Trekker*

      Having been laid off twice, I found check-ins and just a listening ear ( depending on the relationship) the most helpful. Your whole routine and social connections are drastically shifting at a time when you may have a lot of worry about supporting yourself.

      And if you invite the laid off person who hasn’t found work yet to coffee, lunch etc, at least offer to pay. They may really want the conversation and connection but can’t afford to go out.

  44. qjames2345*

    Hoping I am not too late for advice! My partner is a mechanical engineer in a small boutique and rather old-school engineering firm in New England and is feeling very demoralized and discouraged by how things are going, and also thinks he could be making more money. However this was his first job out of college (many years ago) and feels unsure where to start for job searching. LinkedIn? Indeed? Are there engineering-specific job boards he can look at?

    2. spcepickle*

      I am a civil engineer who has gone on a few different job hunts. For real google mechanical engineering job my city. See what pops up. Indeed does have lots of job listings, but I find you often have to go back to the company website to apply. Lots of small companies don’t list on Indeed and many of the government jobs don’t populate there either. Army Corps hires mechEs, if he does bridge / structure work all the DOTs will be interested, and if it is more pumps try all the water / waste water authorities. Also encourage him to find his local chapter of ASME, make some personal connections and get access to their job board.

      Two thoughts – 1) keep a running list of what you have applied for (I use an excel sheet) with copies of the job descriptions (printed to PDF in a folder for me). Because the posting often disappears when they start to do interviews and I always wanted to check it for interview prep.
      2) Make a new email address for job hunting, it makes it way easier to keep job application straight and once he gets a new offer it makes it easier to not see all the spam from the job boards you end up getting forever.

  45. Pumpkin*

    I’ve started my job search, and when filling out job applications online I’ve noticed a lot of companies are asking “What is your desired salary?” with a requirement to fill in a number before you can submit the application. Often these are the companies that don’t post a salary range with the job description. What number should I be filling in, the minimum of my personal range or my target compensation? Does the amount I enter matter at all?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Add at least 15% to your goal salary. Treat it like the opening volley on your salary discussion, you want some space to back down to your target number.

      If it is like a 50k job and you put 110k they might not interview you. But a 50k job and a 75k they’ll probably still interview, they know its negotiable.

    2. Educator*

      I hate this question because of the information imbalance at the application stag. As an applicant, I have always skipped it by putting in $1 and finding a field on the form where I can write “I look forward to discussing my desired compensation as I learn more about the role and benefits package.”

      On the hiring side, I have only ever seen this question used to weed out people we cannot afford, or to lowball people when we make offers. Dodge it if you can.

  46. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    Anyone have ideas about what resources a senior team-level (not c-suite or HR) manager can offer for staff who have requested resources tailored for folks with ADHD to help with time management and prioritization?

    I have three team members who separately requested resources for this after sharing that they have ADHD. I’d like to put a few options on the table to give them ideas, like “here are a few things we could offer, do any of these feel right to you or do you have other proposals?” I think they’ll come up with more ideas on their own if I give them something to start with.

    Budget is not a barrier; I could free up whatever is needed. Our HR team is not helpful and is deeply mistrusted by most of our staff so I’m looking for ideas that would be in my sphere of control as a manager.

    2. Morning Reader*

      I bought the book “organizing strategies for people with adhd,” which I believe someone here recommended. It has some great ideas, but I think each person will be different as to what works for them. Using the book as a tool might be helpful for them to identify their needs. Timers? Breaking up tasks? Clear bins so that priorities aren’t out of sight, instead of filing cabinets? Breaks at specific times?

      Do you have an EAP? It might be a way for these people to figure out what they need. ADA accommodations work best as an interactive process. Ideally they would say “I have adhd and these techniques work well for me, so my disability accommodation could be x y and z.” But it seems they are saying, “I have adhd, you figure it out.” That seems a difficult starting point. Anyway I think the book could be a good starting point to give them ideas, to begin your process.

      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        We do have an EAP, but since it’s offered as an HR resource folks don’t trust it. (It’s separate and confidential of course, but I haven’t been able to get past the perception issue when encouraging folks to use it.) They have also declined to formally disclose because they don’t want HR to know.

        And it’s a challenging starting point for sure but it’s also really understandable; they’re early-career and still learning what they’re empowered to ask for and what they need. They’re all high performers and it’s a priority for me to make sure they feel supported and get what they need to thrive in their roles, even if that puts the onus on me to figure out how.

        I’ll definitely check out that book!

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          My company’s EAP has a resource guide specifically for ADHD. Perhaps yours has the same? Regardless, they should be able to provide some guidance to you, as the manager of employees with ADHD, even if they don’t have anything formal.

          1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

            Oooo I didn’t think about the possibility of me reaching out to the EAP for guidance, that’s a great idea!

        2. Cordelia*

          It is understandable yes, but I really don’t think the onus is on you to figure this out for them. You won’t be able to, because what they need will be completely individual to them. OK they might not know what this is yet, but then they need to work with an ADHD expert, or at least do their own research, to find out. Helping them understand this is going to help them thrive in their roles. Your goal is for them to feel empowered to make suggestions and know these will be taken seriously and that you will work together with them to provide what they need.

          1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

            Yeah definitely not trying to figure it out for them – more trying to give them a starting point, like a “seed list,” to figure it out for themselves.

    3. spcepickle*

      Does your company have an EAP (employee assistance program)? It is a central number to call with exactly this type of question (and so many more).

      Also as dorky as it sounds – Instagram – my feed is FULL of ADHD stuff, you could use the hashtag ADHD and go from there to find workplace suggestions.

      That said, I also would be pushing this back onto the employee to find a therapist to help with this, because it is very individualized. While there are lots of tricks that can help, meds are also an important tool for many people and that is not something I as a supervisor want to make a suggestion about.

    4. ferrina*

      It’s on your team members to be clear about what accommodations they need.

      You are not an ADHD expert, and it doesn’t make sense for you to be trying to give recommendations for their ADHD symptoms. They should got to the EAP for that (and they can independently look for resources. A quick Google should bring up the name Dr Edward Hallowell, a premiere ADHD researcher. Follow that rabbithole, and they’ll find a lot of collaborations and tools). Once they know what they are looking for, you can help them set up systems and processes with the workflow to support that.

      The thing is, ADHD is a highly variable condition and the support each person needs will be different. I’m ADHD, and my incredible organization comes from switching organizational systems every 3-6 months. Obviously this solution will not work for most people. The best thing you can do is ensure that there is a simple, elegant system for clearly communicating deadlines and assignments (whether that’s a software like Trello or Monday, a weekly/daily meeting, or simply a running list of what’s happening and when it’s due).

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This. It’s on the team member to figure out what works for them. They can work with a coach, therapist, OT, or someone else more knowledgeable about ADHD to help them figure out systems to try. You can tell them that, but also add, “I’m very happy to work with you on implementing whatever systems you think will be most helpful. I want you to feel like you have what you need to do your best work here.”

      2. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        Thanks for this. Your last paragraph is especially helpful; we are SO far away from having anything like a simple, clear system for deadlines and assignments (everything is in 14,000 email threads and awful – almost unusable – spreadsheets). That’s an easy intervention point for me at the team level.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      I know you’ve said that your employees don’t trust the EAP. Is there scope in the EAP for you to talk to someone about “what resources can I provide my team”? An organizing seminar or similar? Not in the touchy-feely, let’s-talk-about-our-personal-problems way. But maybe you can talk to one of the therapists etc about what advice they’d recommend for an ADHD-heavy workforce? Or if they’ve found any tools that work well for them.

      It might be worthwhile going back to your team and asking them what specifically they are looking for, and maybe check into what *isn’t* working for them. “Our daily standup is turning into a 30-minute series of side-trails on people’s pets” or “I need a way to know who is working on which Llamas without having to go to everyone invidually and ask” could be good jumping off points.

    6. Educator*

      You are looking for JAN, the Job Accommodation Network. They have great ideas for accommodations, and you could suggest your employees take a look at their resources (they have a great website) and ask for what they need.

      That gets you out of the business of suggesting specific things, which you really don’t want to do because you are not qualified (whomever diagnosed them might be). The framing is that you are happy to provide reasonable accommodations to help them succeed, not that it is your job to figure out what they need for them.

    7. ThatOtherClare*

      I’ve noticed a trend in the stories that my friends with ADHD tell about work – they all seem to work best with multiple projects on the go and external deadlines. They seem to procrastinate one project by doing the other, and they all seem to work best under time pressure. It’s like they have to compensate for their lack of a normal dopamine reward system by activating their adrenalin based panic system instead.

      I don’t know for a fact, but I strongly believe that at least one of my friends has a boss who sets multiple false ‘deadlines’ within a project (I’ve never met anyone else in his line of work with so many ‘hard’ deadlines every few weeks).

      Yes, this does involve more of a change of management style than some set-and-forget resources, but I fear that they’re asking for resources because that’s a new thing they haven’t done before, and they’re unknowingly getting dopamine from the novel experience – not because it would help. This isn’t any kind of deliberate trick on their behalf, it’s a facet of the disorder that they don’t recognise is happening. But that’s likely why all three have done exactly the same thing in coming to you and figuratively ‘spinning the wheel’ for interesting new resources they’ve never heard of. It’s not because it will help, it’s a facet of the disorder.

      Pressure, novelty and teamwork are three things that will help. You can chase them will rolling deadlines, or drip feed them stages of a project instead of letting them see the whole thing at once, or give them permission to work from a different conference room each week, or pair them up to do tasks (look up ADHD body doubling). In exchange for your ongoing work you will get three highly creative, blisteringly intelligent team members who embrace change and are fantastic at spotting patterns that you didn’t even know were possible. A lot of work goes into herding cats with ADHD (I know), but it’s worth it when they’re drawing huge audiences and having a blast jumping through hoops and fetching feather dusters for you.

  47. I need a vacation*

    I saw a similar post on another open thread a few weeks ago- I can’t find it! During covid I started a little side gig to make a few extra bucks. Eventually I moved it over to eBay and similar sites. I’m now at the point where I’m speaking to professionals to make this more than a hobby business. Due to branding, very unrelated niche products and wanting to keep a separate eBay account for miscellaneous transactions …. I’m debating opening a second (and soon third) eBay shop. I’d love to hear from those who have multiple professional (not hobby) stores. What are your experiences like? Is it manageable? Advice?Pros&cons? I’m still in the early stages writing a business plan. While my current store sells a variety of items, I have two niches that seem to be taking off the last few years.

  48. anonlibrarian*

    I recently suggested to my boss that we add back a coordinator position to my team so that I can take some things off the plate of another manager, who’s overwhelmed. My boss seemed interested.

    My question is, should I tell this other manager about my proposal? I think she’ll be happy about it if she knows the reasoning, but I’m not sure. I previously lost the coordinator position because she said she needed more staff, and I’m worried that she’ll see this as some kind of revenge plot (my fellow managers are all rather petty).

    There’s nothing altruistic about this, for the record – I just need more experience for my resume, and I need to see if I can handle more responsibility.

    1. HonorBox*

      “Hey Joy, I wanted to give you a heads up about a conversation I had with (manager) Wilma. I suggested that because we’re all getting pretty busy, it would be good to bring back the coordinator position to the team. She seemed pretty receptive, and while I don’t know timeline or whether it will actually happen, I wanted to give you that heads up.”

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m not sure I’m following — why would you put a coordinator position on YOUR team, to take stuff off the plate of another manager? Why wouldn’t the coordinator position be on their team, if they’re the one who needs more support?

      1. anonlibrarian*

        The coordinator would be on my team to take on some of what I’m doing, so that I’m free to take on some of what the other manager is doing.

        She keeps adding people to her team, but this doesn’t work out for the following reasons:
        1. she’s overseeing way too many different functions of the library and has about twice as many staff on her team as other managers. her job used to be at least two people’s jobs, if not 3. at some point, it gets pretty hard for one manager to keep track of all of these different functions.
        2. we have constant turnover and struggle to find anyone with relevant experience, so she has to train people from the ground up every time we have new hires. they don’t come in ready to do a lot of the stuff she’s doing, which means she’s stuck doing it all until she finds the time to train someone to do it. meanwhile,
        I can do a lot of those things, and I am currently also doing a lot of work that doesn’t need to be done by someone with my level of experience.

        There’s definitely also an issue of her struggling with delegation and how to get her staff to do the things she needs done, but that’s not really my circus. She has a lot more management experience than I do, so anything I say about it will come off as condescending.

  49. Rosie*

    I’m used to having little to no PTO at my jobs and now find myself a bit stressed at the good fortune of needing to use 10 days of PTO by the end of the year. I’ve been saving up PTO in case I got sick and to visit a relative (but that trip can’t happen now because of a conflict on their side). If I don’t use it, I’ll lose it.

    Do you guys find it better to take a week off at a time? Or us it better to try for a bunch of long weekends? (A coworker will have to handle two of my responsibilities that need to be handled daily if I go on PTO, but she doesn’t have much work to do so it shouldn’t be a big deal for her.)

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      In terms of feeling like I actually got time off and relaxed, definitely take the week off. Long weekends are nice but inevitably turn into chores and errands and other small tasks rather than like going to a beach and relaxing.

      1. HonorBox*

        This. Take at least 5 of those 10 days consecutively. Then use the other 5 for long weekends… OR … I love taking a random Wednesday or Thursday from time to time. Some of the stuff you may have to do over the weekend can be done much more efficiently during the middle of the week. The grocery store is far less daunting on Wednesday morning than Saturday. You may end up feeling like you’ve gotten an extra day because your entire weekend could be free of regular “to dos”

      1. Morning Reader*

        In the last year at my career job, I have enough pto to take every Friday off all summer. It was heaven, felt like working part time.
        That said, I like WellRed’s idea of splitting it up. Take a week around a holiday then use the rest for long weekends.

    4. colorguard*

      I’ve done both, and there are things I like (and don’t) about each.
      – Taking a full week actually feels like a break, and if that’s doable, it’s worth it. But the before/after vacation week stuff can drag down a bit so I’ve had roles where it wasn’t worth it.
      – Being able to string together several short weeks by taking every X day off doesn’t have the vacation feel, but having one extra day to deal with life makes it easier to do fun stuff and just generally felt like things were easier. Plus, it usually doesn’t add extra load before/after. But it can mean you don’t ever feel like you really got time off.
      – A few 4-5 day weekends, especially if you can arrange short trips or daytrips, can be a lot of fun depending on where you are, and they tend to be easier to schedule than a full week or two weeks off. But if you thrive on routine, it means more disruption over more time to use up the same number of days.

    5. YourChoice*

      Everyone’s going to have their own preference. I greatly prefer a series of long weekends if I’m not travelling. A week is too long if I’m not doing something special.

    6. ThatOtherClare*

      I try and pair up my PTO with public holidays to get longer chunks of time with fewer days of PTO spent. A 2012 paper in the Journal of Happiness Studies found that health and well-being peak on day 8, but they only studied breaks over 14 days. I assume that if you’re packing to leave and travelling on day 8 you probably don’t get the benefits. So it seems like using your 10 days as a chunk would be ideal, even better if you can squeak it out a day longer by using a public holiday.

      Tip for next year: I like to book my chunk of PTO 6-8 months in advance and use some silly little public holiday that nobody else wants rather than one of the big ones. My boss appreciates the early warning and if I end up using the PTO earlier for other purposes, well, I’ve never had my company complain about me reducing the length of a holiday.

  50. DisneyChannelThis*

    I took off a day for my birthday last week, I was a little cagey about it because I know it would seem juvenile to my coworkers who work their birthdays. But now I found out at least 2 coworkers were saying they thought I had an interview and that’s why I took off mid week, oops! Would it be better to admit birthday date or just let it go at this point?

    (Birthdays are a hot mess here, the big big boss and the big boss get cake on their birthdays and everyone gathers and sings for cake. No one else gets acknowledged).

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “I just wanted to take a day off for myself.” You don’t need to go down the birthday route.

    2. Kesnit*

      Just tell people it was your birthday and you took a vacation day to celebrate. I’ve been doing that for years. There is nothing wrong with a fully grown, function adult to want to celebrate another trip around the sun! :)

      1. Cordelia*

        yes I always take my birthday off if I can. Never occurred to me that it would be thought of as juvenile, and actually I really don’t care if it is! it’s a very common thing to do in my workplace.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          My mother’s birthday is a few days after my own. She’s my excuse. But why not take your birthday off? I don’t do parties, but a day or two off is a nice gift to yourself.

    3. HonorBox*

      “I took my birthday off so I could just have the day to treat myself.”

      If they think it is weird, I think I’d say they’re weird.

      Who knows… you might be modeling behavior some others end up copying in the future.

      2. Clisby*

        A former employer gave everybody their birthday off – just one of the benefits. And you got it even if you were a Leap Year baby – imagine that!

    5. kalli*

      I’d let it go; if you wanted them to know your birthday you would have told them already.

      It’s unlikely to keep coming up anyway, but if it does you can always feign a medical appointment or feeling under the weather and needing a self care day.

    6. ThatOtherClare*

      If it’s true, feel free to lay the juvenility on other people.

      ‘I took my birthday off because my friends/Dad/Sister/cousin/fly fishing club really wanted to celebrate with me. He/she/they love/s birthdays.’

  51. JediMaster*

    I only got my first job one year ago and I am in my late 30’s (My handicap was a bummer in my long quest – and doubts about – finding the perfect job for me).

    And while i have a linkedIn profile since the 2010 (while i was at college), I’ve never done much with it, just updating it with volunteering jobs and ofcourse once I got the job.

    But apparently a lot of people are really active on it.

    Any tips on how I can increase my activity on linkedIn without “losing myself” with it? I s*ck at selling myself or always think I can’t really contribute relevant things

    1. ferrina*

      Why are you looking to amp up your LinkedIn game?
      The activities you should do depend what you are trying to get out of it. So what’s your end goal?

    2. Dita*

      A lot of LinkedIn activity is kind of noise, and lots of people don’t use it frequently at all. At the company I work for, though, it’s really common for people to write posts on major accomplishments—think “I’m so excited to say we’ve finally launched Project X! We couldn’t have done it without the hard work of A, B, and C.” So if there’s anything like that you’d feel comfortable sharing, and tagging your company or coworkers, that might be a low-stakes way to feel a little more involved

      1. ferrina*

        Be very careful about this. Do not share proprietary information on LinkedIn. That can include what projects you are working on.

        At my company, we don’t externally share what companies we are working for unless that company has given explicit permission. If you say “I’m working on a new ad campaign for MegaCorp!” on LinkedIn and MegaCrop hasn’t signed off on that, you will be disciplined or even let go (depending on your other work/judgement).

    3. Antilles*

      It varies by industry, but I’ll say in my experience the “lot of people are really active on it” isn’t really the case. It’s more that there are a few people who are really REALLY active on it, but the norm seems to be far more casual. Something like this:
      -Update it whenever you get a new job, promotion, or other major accomplishments (e.g., recognized certification, major award, etc).
      -Add people to your network every so often just to build more ‘connections’.
      -Check your messages every so often to respond to people you know whenever you think about it, but not with any special frequency.
      -Never actually ‘share’ anything like articles or whatever.
      -…Unless you’re actively looking for a new role, in which case, suddenly become more active in adding people, reaching out to contacts, responding to every message, etc.

  52. DivergentStitches*

    IDK what to do.

    I’ve been at my job 18 months and it’s not a good fit. I have a disability that works against the type of work I’m doing, which is not what I was brought on to do. I tried finding an internal role for 6 months, then asked HR if there was any program to help disabled employees find internal roles.

    A recruiter stepped in to help me look at internal roles. She went back to a hiring manager (HM) that I interviewed with for my target role back in March; at the time, they declined because I didn’t have experience with a specific client, which I thought was fair. They have a new opening that I applied for, but when the recruiter asked her about feedback from March, she came back with needing project management and collaboration experience, and as an example of a position I could try for, to get experience to move into her role, she sent me .. my own current job description. That I’ve been doing for 18 months.

    So I was understandably confused and frustrated at this point. HR set up a meeting with the director of my division who wanted to help me find something. The director said I should re-interview with HM for the role I wanted, and a bigwig from talent acquisition scheduled it.

    I just had that interview with HM and the person who would be my direct boss. HM had a demeanor that she was very much Over This and didn’t want to be doing it and was being pushed into something she doesn’t want to do. Or maybe she’s just tired and I was misinterpreting it out of anxiety? The other person in the call was lovely.

    The job posting shows “internal” so I assume they’re lining the position up for me since I made a stink about being disabled and having trouble moving internally.

    But do I want to work for someone who was forced into hiring me? What if someone more qualified was passed over? What if the team resents me for elbowing my way in without going through proper channels?

    At the same time, my current position just told me that they are shifting soon into the very work I was hired to do, and I would be happy as a clam if that was what my team winds up doing.

    So I feel stuck. I made a stink, HR helped me, and I assume the position will be offered. Do I decline and stay in my current role, where I’d be happy and I like my team, or do I take the new job because I made them give it to me?

    1. ferrina*

      This is a mess.

      Unfortunately, I think you need to take the new job. It sounds like you used political capital to try to get that job (whether you meant to or not), and once that’s spent, people expect you to be grateful for the strings they pulled. That decision was made when the division director got pulled in. Yes, in a better world you’d be able to raise the issue and not worry about repercussions, but I don’t think that’s what you’re working with here.

      For what to do- you need to be very kind to everyone. Be excited to be on the job, eager to work with and learn from your new team and managers, and just generally a pleasant person. If they are stand-offish, give them time. Win them over by doing good work, respecting their expertise, and doing what you can to be a good team player (that will look different depending on what different teams look like).

      You should also start an external job search in case this doesn’t go well. The job search can be low key, just a couple applications per week. The goal is to keep the door open, and if things end up going well at your new role, you can always stop looking. If things don’t go well, then the low-key job search can always be amped up.

      1. DivergentStitches*

        Thank you! I’ve been trying to get feedback on the situation from people here and they are all like “they wouldn’t offer you the job unless they thought you were qualified” and my cynical inner person says “they’re trying to not get sued.”

        2. ferrina*

          lol! I’ve been on the inside too many times to believe the “they wouldn’t offer you the job unless they thought you were qualified/the best candidate”.

          It’s more likely that Hiring Manager can’t directly defy an order from Bigwig to consider you, and in cases like that, a wink’s as good as a nod. Their hand is being forced. Sometimes this means that the supervisor/team will also be annoyed, sometimes it doesn’t. Impossible to tell.

          Sometimes this is water under the bridge and it turns out okay in the end; sometimes it is Big Drama. That’s why I’d go for the low-key job search; you want a back-up plan.

          1. ferrina*

            To clarify- in a healthy organization, yes, you were offered the job because they think you are qualified and one of the top candidates.
            In an unhealthy organization, all bets are off.

          2. DivergentStitches*

            Oh I have been looking but 99% of the applications are turned down. I interviewed with a company that really liked me, but I didn’t have quite enough exp in their specialty, which is fair, but the manager asked the recruiter to try to find me something. But then one position they weren’t willing to consider remote work as a reasonable accommodation, and the other the salary was too low. I still keep in touch with the recruiter though.

      2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I second everything here. There’s a way through where you change hiring manager’s mind over time just by being good at your job, especially if you meanwhile create strong bonds with others on the team who will speak up for you or otherwise amplify things.

        You’ve made the waves, time to hop into this pool. If your current role is creating problems related to your disability, that won’t work for you long-term either. Good luck!

  53. handfulofbees*

    How can I support a friend who’s having an awful time job hunting? There’s always someone with more experience, freelance gigs don’t turn into hiring work, and it just sucks to see her hopes get dashed over and over.

    1. Lost the election by a whisper*

      As someone who is ‘your friend’ it’s hard out here. Last time I hunted was in 2021 and I wouldn’t say easy pickings, but I didn’t have to work too hard to land a really nice role (in non-profit). Now, I’ve been searching for 5-mos, in my 6-mos.

      She has to own her emotions and response to it. You can’t make it better or more palatable. You can say, “I know you’re trying hard. Keep it up.” or something like that but you shouldn’t be expected to do more. Take her out, Zoom in for a check-in, cards or text messages make a different. My previous co-worker wrote me off as a traitor for leaving; the others are working now. I’m quite lonely at times. But that’s just the scenario I’m in and I can’t rely on someone to bolster me into happiness.

    2. DivergentStitches*

      Just encourage her to do like Alison says and just apply for jobs and then move on. Sounds like she’s getting emotionally invested in each application and you just can’t do that. It’ll drive you up the wall. If they reach out for an interview, great, but gotta keep moving forward.

      AI isn’t helping in that many companies are using it to look at resumes, so often we get rejected just because our resume doesn’t meet some mythical ideal.

    3. ThatOtherClare*

      1) listen to her vent
      2) reflect back her emotions – if she’s grumpy, be grumpy alongside her. If she’s sad, be sad alongside her. If she’s frustrated, be frustrated alongside her. Whomever she targets with her emotions (the system, the job who ghosted her, some dumb application software), target them too.
      3) she’s the star, keep your reactions matching in intent but milder in intensity. You want her to feel seen, not overshadowed.
      4) most people escalate their vents when you don’t match them, and wind down surprisingly quickly when they feel seen and understood. But if she gets into a long spiral, redirect her after about 45 minutes to an hour and help her with some distractions that make her feel better.
      5) show her you trust and value her by seeking her opinion on things when you’re not talking about job hunting, and then following through, e.g. reading that book she recommended to you ages ago or asking her what coffee shop you should take your Mother to next (and then actually doing it). This helps way more than you might think.
      6) support in, stress out. If your worry about your friend gets to you, lean on your own support networks (as you’re doing now, great job, keep it up!).

      You’re a great friend for caring and looking for ways to help. She’s lucky to have you! Good luck to you both :)

  54. Cookies for Breakfast*

    This is for those who have large side projects outside a full-time job (better still if writing related). If you achieved something big in your creative space, like a grant / prize / important publication, would you announce it on LinkedIn where your colleagues may see it?

    I applied for a couple exciting opportunities in a creative space, and should hear back soon. One of these is very big in its community, and can help people kickstart a career. While I’m ready for rejection, I can’t help asking myself how I’d spread the word if I got accepted.

    I don’t have a personal social media following, and while at least a few ex-colleagues in my LinkedIn network would be excited to hear my news (because they know I have those side projects and they sound very exciting), I wouldn’t want current colleagues to jump to the conclusion that I’m close to leaving my job or might be slacking off: I’d still work on the opportunities in my spare time, and it would take a lot of planning to work out whether a radical career change is for me. At the same time, having big-side-project achievements on my profile would probably help, so I can connect with creative-field people on LinkedIn.

    Has anyone had similar experience or doubts? What did you do in the end?

    1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      My author friends always announce their books. Sometimes the launches have a gaggle of coworkers eager to get our copy signed. I say let people know about your successes!

  55. Frustrated*

    Tips on succession planning? My boss will be retiring in the next few months. They have absolutely no will, desire, or motivation to clean things up before they leave. They are currently checked out on existing projects/decision making, of which they are the sole leader. They want to shut the door on their way out and never speak to anyone again. I’m their only report and no one has had a discussion with me yet about shadowing them/learning the ropes to take over when they leave. There will be no one to take over their tasks but their department isn’t one that would just absorb and disappear. It’s a major facet of the organization. At the same time, I’ve expressed a desire to be promoted to said boss after working here for over a decade, but nothing has happened (mostly because they absolutely detest strategic planning and doubt they ever brought it up to their boss and they just absolutely don’t care). Is there anything to be done proactively? Or do I need to just sit and wait until the big bosses tell me what’s going to happen or pass me over for an outside hire?

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      Have you mentioned any of this to the big bosses, or whoever is making the decision on who the replacement will be? If your boss is as checked out as you say, it doesn’t seem likely they’ll make much of a push for you

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, talk to your Grandboss. Grandboss doesn’t know what is happening on the day-to-day, and it’s very unlikely that Boss is telling them. Give the Grandboss a list of things that only the Boss can do, and let them know that you’d be interested in training up for Boss’s job, but that you’d need to start training by X Date so that you have enough time before Boss leaves.

    2. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Would it be possible to connect with your boss’s boss about this? Is the grandboss aware of how checked out an inactive the boss is during this time?

    3. HonorBox*

      Take on the role you’re striving to have and show that you’re already thinking about what to do following the retirement.

      Schedule a meeting with one (or more) of the big bosses. Go in with the following objectives:

      1. Offer status reports (as you’re) on existing projects. Ask questions if you need more information and don’t have specifics from your current boss.
      2. Outline specific needs from your present boss. Present objectively what information and support you (and the overall business) you still need from your boss and how you’re struggling to get information. Especially if they’re very siloed in their approach, the big bosses need to know that, regardless of who it is stepping in, someone will need to have some of the institutional knowledge your boss has.
      3. Ask how they want to be updated on the status of projects over the next few months.
      4. Suggest specifically how you might be able to take on aspects of projects and decision-making processes and give them an opportunity to agree.
      5. Ask them about a strategic plan for your area. Again, present objectively that your boss doesn’t have one, and show them that it will help long-term to have something in hand. Even better if you go into that meeting with an outline. Sometimes the best strategic plans come from those doing the work versus an outside “expert.”

      Show them that you’re interested in seeing things move forward smoothly. And show them what you need in terms of support to keep things moving forward. Show them that you’re proactively thinking months down the road to ensure this essential part of the organization isn’t going to be left floundering.

      Hopefully they’ll see that the right person to step into the role is in house already and can work with you to get information from your boss. Also hopefully this will open their eyes to the fact that your boss was likely just going to walk out and potentially leave the business in a really tough spot.

    5. Frustrated*

      Thanks everyone for this insight! It’s really helpful to have other perspectives. I should have stated earlier that I don’t have a *great* relationship with the grandboss. They are a dictator and I’ve never felt heard or seen bringing up issues or ideas to them. They seem threatened by creativity, strong work ethic, and stretch assignments. But maybe if it effects my workload (which this change absolutely will), that might be enough to request a meeting and lay out a proposal or at least see what they are thinking.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Do you *want* to work directly under grandboss? Because if you angle for your boss’s job, that’s exactly what you’ll be doing.

        If not, it’s time to start looking elsewhere.

      2. Kay*

        Genuine question – do you actually want to work for your grandboss? That doesn’t sound like the best environment for you to grow and thrive in.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      You need to be proactive and speak up about this! As a manager with an interest in succession planning, I absolutely want my reports to let me know if they are interested in moving upwards. However, given that your boss has pretty much checked out, I’m with the people who recommend talking to your grandboss. I would go and say “I know Jane’s retiring in a while, and I’ve been giving some thought to the idea of applying for her position. I’m sure Jane is busy with retirement planning and tying up her own loose ends, so I thought I’d come to you and ask what your plans are for her position, and if there’s anything I might do while she’s still here to improve my candidacy for the role.”

  56. SAW*

    Hi there – next week we are interviewing candidates for the role that will be my manager. Does anyone have any suggestions/thoughts on questions to ask the candidates during the interview?

    I am pretty new to my current role and the manager position was unfilled when I was interviewing. My last two managers were a big reason why I left my last two positions and while I’m not ultimately going to be able to choose my next manager, I’d at least like to get to a sense of their management style beforehand.

    1. ExecRecruiter*

      I’m a big fan of asking about specific things people they’ve worked with in the past have done that frustrated them and how they addressed the situations. Then, you get two pieces of information – What annoys them (and is it something that you do?) and how they deal with conflict.

      Similarly, asking about times they had to work with someone who had a different communication style then they did and how they worked through that. It also gives you multiple pieces of info at once.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      “Can you tell me about some situations where you’ve advocated for your team or for individual direct reports?”

    4. spcepickle*

      I love a conflict question in interviews.
      Normally it is tell me about a time you disagreed with someone in a work place. What was the issue and how did it resolve. Side note – Anyone who tells you have they have never had a disagreement in the workplace is either a doormat or the cause of all drama.

      I might tailor it a little toward management – Tell about a time one of your direct reports disagreed with you. Follow up with – How did you assure they felt heard?

      Other possible questions:
      How do you solicit feedback?
      Tell me, in broad terms, about a time you had to let someone go. How did you make the choice? How did you share the news with your team?
      What is your number one goal as a manager (my personal answer to this question – to be a shit umbrella for my team. To keep the upper levels from raining down on them)

    5. NoIceCavesHere*

      “Tell me about a time you needed to give critical feedback to a direct report. How did it go?” I’ve had a candidate openly admit he made his direct report cry and pushed on anyway.

      Honestly, I’ll also wear my lowest cut (but still work-appropriate) blouse to see if we have a chest-staring problem.

  57. RightleTitles*

    I’d like to get hiring managers’ advice on how to list title changes within a company —

    I have been the most senior HR-specific person at my company for six years. However, my titles have progressed – think “Coordinator, Manager, Director” – over that time. I’m applying to roles that require 5+ years leading HR. I haven’t been getting any interviews, and I’m wondering if the more “junior” titles make it seem like someone else was leading the function originally.

    Would it be seen as deceitful to list “Head of HR, 2018-Present” rather than my specific titles? I’m worried that since it won’t align with my actual titles on LinkedIn and my company’s website, it would be a problem. If not like that, how else might you expect this to be listed, or would you suggest leaving as is?

    (Just so it doesn’t derail the question, I promise I have been leading the function ever since I had a coordinator title. I’ve created the processes, manage people, etc., and have the bullet points of what I’ve done in the resume to back it up; this company just titles weirdly.)

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      Not deceitful at all in my mind – I would absolutely list it as head of HR. As a hirer I would only care about what you did in the role, not the title.

    2. ferrina*

      It wouldn’t be great- usually on resumes people are looking for actual titles. I think it also depends on how much your actual role has changed over those 6 years. It’s normal to have only one HR person that does benefits and other HRy stuff but isn’t really leading HR (they’re more making sure that the Big Boss’s decisions are executed correctly). It’s different to have someone that is creating talent-oriented strategies, managing HR teams across different locations/areas, etc. If your role truly has evolved over the last 6 years, then that’s what reflected by your title changes.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      In the past, AAM has recommended listing progression within one org along these lines:

      Director, HR | 2022 to Present
      Manager, HR | 2019-2022
      Coordinator, HR | 2018-2019
      – job duties / skills / key accomplishments / whatever else
      – job duties / skills / key accomplishments / whatever else
      – job duties / skills / key accomplishments / whatever else

      As ferrina says, I’d make an effort to emphasize how your role has changed/grown over the years. The things you describe as being your job function don’t really convey “head of HR” to me unless your company is super tiny (which it may be!) and I know that if I saw “head of HR” on a resume, I’d assume they were the person strategizing with the C-Suite, consulting with the legal team on issues where you want to make sure you’re not running afoul of labour law, etc. It may not be the titles so much as the duties if you don’t also have that higher level experience they’re probably expecting of an HR leader.

      1. RightleTitles*

        Yes, the way you/AAM recommend is how I’ve been outlining them, but given my slow search, I’ve been wondering if I should switch. I’ve been reporting to the COO since I was a “coordinator” and have been doing all the things you mentioned, which are outlined in my resume. (I’ve been with the company since we were 6 people, though it is much larger now.)

        An additional wrinkle is that many job apps ask you to list out your titles in their ATS separate from your resume, which has been challenging given my wonky title progression.

        But I’ll keep listing as normal for now, I think. I’ve only been casually looking, so it might still be that I’m on the wrong end of the number game.

    4. Kay*

      If your current title reflects “Director” level, and you’ve always been doing the same job you could do something like:
      Director, HR 2018-present
      (formerly titled Manager and Coordinator)
      and make sure your cover letter emphasizes that over the last 6 years you have lead the HR dept which makes you perfectly poised to jump into this role … or however you want to say it.

      Head of HR does not sound like an actual title.

  58. A Cat May Look at a King*

    Advice, please: my supervisor has not been communicating work expectations to me, and I need to figure out how to talk to them about it.

    Let’s say I work in a candy store, and I previously had a list of all of the types of candy that used chocolate. We called this the Chocolate List, and sometimes the Candy Bar List. 6+ months ago, boss said that they want to revisit the Candy Bar List and make sure that all of our chocolates are listed. The new list is also called the Candy Bar List. All of the instructions on this project have used terminology and examples from the preexisting project, so I was under the impression that this was a reorganization of the old project. In our last two 1:1 meetings, they did not bring this project up at all, and a few weeks ago they sent out the Candy Bar List to ask me to check it against my records. The candy bar brands in the list were all of the old stock that we tracked, so I flagged it, filed it to work on when I got back around to that project, and moved on to work with a definite deadline.

    I found out this week that my supervisor had drastically changed the perimeters of the project. Instead of tracking the chocolate bars that I previously was charged with, they want me to track all candy that could conceivably be considered in bar form in our inventory, including candy that is not chocolate, and the chocolate bars need to be itemized by different type of chocolate. Certain ingredients need to be cross referenced. We have thousands of candy bars and this must be done manually. None of these instructions were written down.

    I of course immediately started working on the project, but we have had this kind of problem before: they tell me to do something, I do it, and then they do not tell me that there were secret project specifications until I ask for something and am told that I am behind on my work so my request cannot be honored. If I explain that I had not been aware of the new perimeters, I am told that it is my responsibility to ask them for instructions if I am unclear about the assignment. However, in every case, I thought that I understood the project scope and did what was asked of me, only to learn much later that the project urgency was greater than I had been led to believe or that there were details that were not conveyed.

    How do I talk to my supervisor about this? They do not take any perceived criticism well, and short of asking for detailed instructions on every single instruction that they give me, I do not know how to get all of the information.

    1. ExecRecruiter*

      Rather than asking for detailed instructions, have you tried explaining the project back to your manager? Bonus points if you do this in writing. You said “I was under the impression,” which to me is always a flag that I should clarify with my boss and get it in writing.

      As far as talking to them about it now, you could frame it as what YOU are going to do going forward, rather than sharing criticism of them. Something like, “After we realized we had misaligned expectations on the chocolate bar project, I took some time to think about how I can ensure this doesn’t happen again. Going forward, after you assign me a project, I’ll write down the steps I plan to take and the timeline I’ll follow, and I’ll share that with you. This way you know exactly what I’m doing and can redirect early if needed.”

      With a reasonable manager, I would hope you could just name the issue and problem solve together, but since you said they don’t take criticism well, I might approach it a little less directly.

    2. NoIceCavesHere*

      This is a great time to use the post-meeting clarification email. After you get the project instructions, restate them along with the deadline in an email to your supervisor ended with a cheery “let me know if there’s anything else you want added” or similar. This gives your supervisor a chance to clarify anything, to reply when they think of additional requirements and also gives you email evidence of the original ask. Then if you later learn of previously-unstated expectations, you can reply to your original email adding on the new requirement but subtly showing that your supervisor had the information of the previous ask and had not clarified what they wanted and this is a new requirement. Part of the key here is creating a document trail of what they truly communicated to you.

      I’ve worked with similarly sensitive supervisors, and my tack has been to avoid a direct conversation about the issue but to get casual buy-in to the strategy I’m going to use to manage the situation. In this situation after I got my next set of instructions I’d say breezily “Sounds great, I’ll just send an email confirming the details we talked about”, and more forward with what I described above.

      It may also be worthwhile to do check-ins while the project is in process. Those could be spelled out in the initial clarifying email too. For example “I’ll send you my initial draft on Friday to see if this is the data structure you’re looking for”. It’s about giving your supervisor the opportunity to tell you what they want before you’ve invested a lot of time.

  59. Ashley*

    Any experiences with a manager who just refuses to manage? I work on a team of fairly junior employees that reports to someone much higher up named Charles. But Charles, as far as we can tell, has no interest in managing us. Weeks will go by where he does not talk to or interact with us in any way. Other teams in our office have weekly team meetings, periodic dinners, and regular performance reviews, but Charles organizes nothing of the sort for us. He does make time to meet with us if we need his signoff on something or clarification on how he wants an issue handled, but otherwise he ignores us.

    Some of our team members love not having someone hovering over them while they work, but it has also caused a number of issues that I feel are unacceptable. One teammate does no work and just watches YouTube all day and has faced no consequences for it. One team member constantly makes loud vulgar jokes that disrupt the office and make everyone uncomfortable, and Charles does nothing about it. We had a new employee join a few months ago, but Charles did not give him any training or assign anyone to do so, leading to several weeks of chaos where we all had to figure out who was going to get him up to speed on our systems. A member once disappeared for several hours, causing an office-wide panic when other teams who needed her couldn’t find her—it turned out she’d told Charles she had a doctor’s appointment but Charles had forgotten and not told anyone else. Someone was fired from our team unexpectedly last year after having gotten no indication from Charles that he was performing poorly.

    Can we ask for Charles to manage us more? Or can we ask for a new manager? Is that a thing that’s possible, and if so, how? Or should I just accept that this is probably a YBSAIGTC situation?

    1. HonorBox*

      Is there someone above Charles? Do you have any type of working relationship with that person?

      I think it is nice at times to have a manager who doesn’t meddle and lets people do their jobs. And I realize that managers can be pulled in dozens of directions, so there’s a possibility that this situation is partially due to that. But there are a couple of items that jumped out at me.

      First, the lack of team meetings and performance reviews. Even if you’re not meeting weekly, having some sort of regular meeting is going to be helpful for everyone on the team. And not having performance reviews puts everyone in a position of not having any idea how well they’re doing. And if performance reviews are tied to money or promotions, this is even more problematic.

      Second, the coworker who is making vulgar jokes. Someone needs to step in if people are uncomfortable.

      Third, and maybe most problematic, having a new employee go without any sort of training is a huge issue. There are myriad problems that can arise from that, from the new employee just finding a new job to a huge problem arising for the business because someone made a huge error.

      The other things I might chalk up to someone just being a ding dong manager. But the three things I’ve highlighted put the company in a bad spot, potentially legally. I don’t think you need to ask Charles to manage you more because he clearly doesn’t know how, or doesn’t want to. But taking this to upper management or HR, and highlighting potential legal issues from the vulgar jokes and the fact that you have new teammates who are floundering for weeks, causing chaos as you all scramble to get them trained, I’d hope that someone would step in and give Charles some better direction.

    2. ferrina*

      Get a new job.

      There’s some of this that can be done by a Proxy Manager. I’ve been that Proxy Manager before when my Actual Manager just noped out, and it can work as long as everyone is on the same page. The Proxy Manager can handle onboarding/training, coordinating PTO (with Actual Manager approving, but the Proxy makes sure the work is covered), and finding resoures/coverage.

      But you are listing issues that require an Actual Manager. Performance issues can’t be handled by a Proxy Manager (unless blackmail is involved, but that’s not recommended). People getting fired can’t be handled by a Proxy Manager. The vulgar jokes can sometimes be handled by someone speaking up (or by the Office Force of Personality), but if that doesn’t work, the Actual Manager needs to do something about it.)

      And Proxy Manager will never be promoted. You will be essential to the team, but your contributions will never be formally recognized and you will not be promoted, because no one is advocating for you. And Charlie will never leave, because he’s got a good thing going (not doing any work, but work is getting done). You will not be paid your value. They won’t create a manager position under Charlie, because that would require Charlie to actually think about staffing needs in the department.
      Your best to cut your losses. Your job search can be low-key or amped up depending on how quickly you want to leave, but you need to be actively applying. I’ve been in this situation several times, and it doesn’t get better.

    3. Kay*

      So what has Charles said when you complained about the vulgar jokes? Have you complained to HR? When you told him that the employee watching YouTube was causing delays in the workflow (or whatever the consequence is) how did he handle it? When you asked him who should train the new person, what did he say?

      If you say he is responsive when you need things, have you been bringing these issues to his attention? If not, bring them all up, every time. And look for a new job.

    4. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      It sounds like there needs to be a manager or team lead in between you and Charles (you mention he’s much higher up). Obviously it not’s in your control to hire a new manager, but maybe you can ask Charles if one of the more senior members could become a team lead or something similar

    5. Cj*

      I’m trying to figure out the acronym. it seems to be a similar to Your boss is an ass and it’s not going to change, but doesn’t fit exactly.

  60. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any tips for intellectually engaging more at work? Supervisor mentioned I need to work on that, and less on just churning out datasets….

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Good question – I’m having to bring this kind of thing up to coworkers & my managers.

      1) what’s the point of doing this? How does this further the interests of the company and/or the customers? Given what you know about that, how/what else would you do?

      2) what have you done in previous dataset-churns that you have learned from in order to make the process more efficient, yield better results, etc? And this doesn’t necessarily mean your R or Python code, it also means documentation, the questions you ask when given a new task, the way you write caveats & footnotes.

      3) what insights can you gain from the results of multiple dataset-churns? Longitudinal analysis, comparisons between similar projects, etc.

    2. ferrina*

      What do they mean by “intellectually engaging”? Do they mean “witty repartee”?

      If it’s around data, it might mean more focus on the meaning and less on the numbers. Being able to translate numbers into succinct meaning is a very sought-after skill. It’s one thing to hand me several sheets of data- it’s another to tell me in 2 sentences or less what that data says that I should care about (note: not just “here’s an overview of the data”, but “here’s the one thing that will make or break you”)

      1. GythaOgden*

        Yup, this. I went from doing routine data entry a few times before I actually had to generate the data myself, and it was really useful to know what was behind a string of arcane numbers so that I could actually go back to the people asking me to complete the job and check misprints, transcription errors or other snagging. That’s on the inbound route; for outbound, you may want to think about supplying the data, but also providing things like a pivot table to allow others to hone in on what they need.

      2. WestsideStory*

        Late to the party, but as someone familiar with the data sheets you should be able to provide some insights – that’s what they want.

        As a first exercise, take some time to go over several similar data dumps, and look for anomalies – that’s a trick I learned from a ninja data geek when responsible for creating actionable items around product pricing and sales.

        Use Excel to re-align the numbers (or names) alphabetically, or high to low/low to high in certain fields, for example. What sticks out? What patterns can you see?

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      It sounds like your manager wants you to start thinking more big-picture. Is there more you could learn about the way your work affects the company, and about the other teams most closely connected with yours? Any thoughts you could offer on improving processes or products?

  61. ProfessionalMess*

    A possibly overthinking/putting the cart before the horse question but looking for thoughts:

    My department has multiple teams-we all do the same work but have small groups for meetings, management, PTO coverage, etc. My team boss is likely going to take another job and if/when that happens, I am likely to be offered their position. This would be the first management type job ever for me.

    My concern is that one of my teammates is also my good friend. I’ve read Allison’s advice regarding not being real-life friends with people you manage, but I don’t want to stop being friends!

    Would it be out of bounds to ask that the teams be shuffled around so I’m not over a friend?

    1. DottedZebra*

      Yes. It’s not fair to disrupt your friend’s job so you can be a manager. You could offer to manage a different team and let someone manage your current team. Basically the person who needs to shuffle to make this happen is you, not your friend.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I don’t think that’s unreasonable, if there are multiple roles at the same level/doing the same work and just managing different teams.

      1. GythaOgden*

        We’ve done that very recently. It meant the person had to stay in the previous role for a few months longer, but there was an opening very shortly afterwards where she was chosen without having to interview again. It’s very much worth it for a lot of good reasons and good bosses will try to make it happen.

  62. MigraineMonth*

    Any tips for faking it when your head isn’t in the game? My beloved animal companion of over a decade died quite suddenly last week, and while I’m not sobbing uncontrollably anymore, I still can’t concentrate on anything complex.

    Fortunately I work from home and have few meetings, so I don’t have to put on a “face” much. Just get some–any–work done.

    1. MissBliss*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. Just be gentle and kind to yourself. We all have bad weeks – this can be one of them.

    2. TPS Reporter*

      agree to give yourself grace, it’s okay to have some days/weeks when you’re not at the top of your game. If you don’t have looming deadlines you can make up the work some other time. If you do have looming deadlines could you ask your manager for some assistance?

      you could spend time plotting out how you’re going to tackle more complex things, instead of actually doing the complex things. i.e. write out a timeline and the tasks within. or spend time organizing emails/old files.

    3. lapnep*

      I’m so sorry. This happened to me. I found having a ritual every day- lighting a candle and looking at some photos every morning- gave me space to be with the grief and not feel like I had to push it aside all day, which unsurprisingly was not working. That and less complex tasks.

  63. Sterling*

    I’m an intern at a “hip, trendy” office where almost everyone is under 35, with the exception of some top executives. I enjoy my work but, the culture of the rest of the company is a dumpster fire.

    Almost every manager here has never worked anywhere else. Folks are generally hired as interns right out of college (I’m an exception: I’m starting a new career in my late 20s, so I’m a bit older than the rest of my intern cohort) and those who stay with the company long enough eventually make their way up the ladder into management. As a consequence, I’m not sure any of these managers have really been taught how to manage, and at least once a week I either witness or hear about something happening that could end up on AskAManager But as one of the only employees here who has worked at other companies, I worry I’m alone in finding these behaviors horrifying.

    Some examples:
    – A manager regularly discusses her dating life with her interns, listing the qualities she’s looking for in a partner and asking them to set her up with people.
    – A religious manager takes up large portions of her team meetings discussing her devotion to her faith, mission trips, and attempts to convert people.
    – A manager regularly complains about her boss with her interns, moaning about how he micromanages her.
    – Several managers and senior employees are in a “spirituality group” that many suspect to be a cult, occasionally advertise its meetings in the company-wide Slack, and encourage their reports to join.
    – A manager speculated with his team at a recent work dinner about a medical procedure that he’d heard a junior employee of a different team had undergone.
    – A manager complained to interns at a recent happy hour about his direct report (their fellow intern) and how much supervision he required.
    – A manager told his team at a recent meeting that an intern on another team (who they do not work with) was about to be fired. This was later revealed not to be true.

    In general, gossip and rumors are rampant across the board in this workplace. Some managers refuse to manage their reports, some reports refuse to do what their managers say, nobody suffers consequences for any of it, it’s all a giant mess.

    My role is fairly specialized and doesn’t require me to interact much with the rest of the office, so none of this really impacts me apart from being grating to witness. That said, I am wondering if/how I should address the matter with the rest of my intern cohort. We get along well. I’m quite impressed with how smart and hardworking many of them are and I hope they will go on to success in this field down the line.

    But I’m worried that they will come to see this kind of management as normal and that this could go on to harm them professionally if they go on to work elsewhere. I’ll sometimes hear about one of these manager incidents at lunch or happy hour and will audibly gasp or my eyes will widen — and the other interns will express confusion as to why I’m reacting that way, and I’m not sure exactly how to respond in a way that doesn’t potentially cause further drama.

    Should I let them know that, based on my previous work experience, this is all conduct that would be considered unacceptable at any competent workplace? Do I have any power to do that, as their fellow intern who’s a bit further along in years? Or does any attempt to do that risk looking like I’m attempting to drive a wedge between them and their teams and managers?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      If they express confusion about your gasp, tell them that generally discussions about dating, religion, etc. aren’t normal workplace conversation, especially between managers and direct reports. I think your workplace experience gives you the exact reason to say something. And if you’re driving a wedge between interns and managers, remember that the wedge was actually placed there by the managers who are acting inappropriately.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I think you’ve got standing to say, “At my old employers, that would have been handled in X or Y way,” or just “I’ve never encountered anything like that in a professional setting before, and I honestly never thought I would.”

        I know you’re hearing a lot of this secondhand, but how comfortable are you speaking up and saying “wow, that’s inappropriate” when it happens in front of you? It probably won’t make you popular, but it doesn’t sound like you’re looking to get hired here, and I don’t know how badly you feel like you need the reference/connections.

    2. ferrina*

      Do exactly what you are doing now. Don’t waste political capital trying to fight this battle- you aren’t in the right position for that. The genuine startled reaction and gently sharing stories of actual good managers will go a long way. Casually drop AAM into conversation about other things. If there is a receptive audience, great. If there’s not, then this isn’t worth getting yourself into trouble over (especially since you have no power to change anything about it).

      Get through this and get out. The other interns will learn the lesson soon enough.

    3. Kay*

      I’ve found the shocked along with a little comment like “oh they did not say that at work!?”, “oh what an HR nightmare!”, “oh thats a lawsuit waiting to happen”, “oh you would think they should know better” work really well in situations where you don’t have power to change things, but still want to say uh hello – none of this is okay people!

      You will be doing the interns a great favor by not normalizing this behavior.

  64. Blue Spoon*

    Last week, my great-grandboss sent out an email asking if any staff wanted to attend a one day mini-conference in a city around 2 hours away. Three people said yes and got registered to go: myself (full-time) and two part-timers (Horace and Cassandra, for convenience’s sake). Horace said that he intended to drive himself to the conference due to plans to meet up with friends in the city afterward, and I was informed that Cassandra and I have permission to use a county vehicle to drive ourselves.

    The vehicle is where the problem arises. In order to be able to drive a county vehicle, the driver has to have previously passed a county-run safe driving training. I have had this training; Cassandra has not. I am also terrified of driving on interstate highways and use Google Maps’ “avoid highways” option religiously. I did check, and there is a non-interstate route I can take that covers a similar number of miles but is estimated to take about 40 minutes longer. I have never driven in a county vehicle before, but I have ridden in one, and I know that they have a built-in GPS and wouldn’t be surprised if they track your route. I’ve messaged my great-grandboss’s assistant to see if taking that route would be a problem, but I haven’t heard anything back.

    Am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Is taking an alternate route actually fine? (I do intend to let Cassandra know the situation once I get an answer from GGB’s assistant so she can choose to drive herself if she wants, but I don’t want to make her drive herself and pay for the gas just because I get driving anxiety).

    1. WellRed*

      Drive yourself in your own car and take whatever route you are comfortable with (I sympathize about the highway thing). Have a “ commitment” in that city or nearby after the event. Problem solved. Also, I think it’s perfectly fine to say, I hate driving on highways.

    2. Blue Spoon*

      When I initially posted this, it did not show up for me, so a while later I rewrote/reposted it. I’m sorry, I promise I did not mean to double-post.

    3. Cj*

      can you ride with her in her car and you split the cost of gas? it sounds like they won’t reimburse for mileage since you could take a County vehicle, but for 40 minutes longer, especially if that’s each direction, it would be worth it to me to pay for half the gas.

  65. Trevor*

    I’m an employee on a team that, due to a series of unexpected departures over the past year, is currently very understaffed. Our office is in a constant state of panic with everyone rushing around to get projects done by deadline. Our manager, Diane, oversees several teams across multiple offices and is basically always in meetings, so she doesn’t have much time to help us and is very hard to reach. But she and other higher-ups have been desperate to get more people onto our team ASAP, and so a few months ago they hired a brand new graduate, Todd, with no experience in our field other than summer internships. (For comparison, the rest of us have been on the job a decade-plus.)

    Diane initially assigned one of our team members, Vincent, to train Todd and answer his questions. However, Vincent ended up leaving the company a few weeks later due to an unexpected life event. Diane has not yet reassigned someone else to train Todd, and now that we are scrambling to cover Vincent’s projects, the rest of us REALLY do not have the bandwidth to take on training duties. But I happen to sit across from Todd, so he is now directing all of his questions to me. And so now, in addition to the huge amount of my own work that is on my plate, I am dealing with a steady stream of questions from Todd. These are not procedural or factual questions that I can just ask him to look up — they tend to be specific to whatever project he is working on, such as “Do you know why the numbers in this column don’t add up?” or “Does this sentence I wrote make sense?” I often have to go over to his computer and examine his work in order to give a confident answer, and it starts to take up a decent amount of time.

    I tried to help as much as I could in the beginning, because I can tell that Todd is a hard worker who is trying hard to learn. I also don’t want him to be fired, because…we do need the help! But the questions are not abating as time goes on, and I feel like they are starting to add an unsustainable amount of stress to my workload, particularly when we are in crunch time on deadlines.

    Is this something I should address with Diane — and if so, what would be the best way to do that? Or is it Todd I should be talking to?

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Yep, you need to take this to Diane urgently.

      Since she isn’t able to be on the floor, she may not understand that Todd is not catching on as quickly as he needs to, and you should definitely spell out these things: (1) Todd is a junior employee who still needs significant training, and no one has been designated to that role; (2) the training he needs is not something that can be accomplished by anyone on your team/the group of you as long as they are expected to do their same amount of work as before, because Todd needs more hands-on help than that; (3) Until Todd is trained more, it will not be possible for him to contribute as a full team member and the whole team’s performance is suffering as a result

      Diane needs to change how she is managing her resources. She’s likely thinking of this as a backburner issue but it’s closer to boiling over and becoming a fire than she realizes. Unfortunately, it sounds like she is the only person in a position to assign someone to train Todd, to get in there and reduce the number of tasks your group is assigned, etc etc.

      It is very easy when you aren’t on the floor every day to not realize how big a problem something like this is becoming but she needs to spend the resources in time, work, whatever it is or the problem will only get worse. And it’s up to her to fix it. What you can do is make sure she is fully aware of the problem and keep on her until she does something about it. Hopefully listing it as I did above will help that message land.

  66. Mgguy*

    So a question for all of you-

    Let’s say hypothetically an employee is placed on something equivalent to a PIP in their role. The letter notifying them of the PIP listed that to succeed, improvements needed to be made in 3 specific areas.

    The employee was then tasked with coming up with strategies to address the items in the PIP, and then developing the metrics by which those would be assessed.

    I’m referencing a real situation from my workplace, and in this case the this is what happened, however management, or rather administration(this is for a faculty position in higher ed) never discussed the proposed plan with the employee after the employee submitted it-they simply went along, doing what they’d said they were going to do.

    Ultimately adminstration-grudgingly-acknowledged that improvement had been demonstrated in all areas of the PIP, and that the employee had met their own metrics, although were very clear that they still didn’t think it was enough. The employee was able to keep their position, and then receive tenure.

    We are a unionized workplace, and our contract does not spell out any steps for how the above process should happen-it only references state law, which only vaguely references “unsatisfactory performance” and specific legal steps that are followed.

    I am working on language for our next contract that will guide this-admittedly rare at my workplace-process should it happen again. I am of the opinion that it’s unreasonable for an employee to effectively write their own PIP, as this one was tasked with doing. To me, it should be management/administration identifies deficiencies AND sets measureables/metrics that should be met to satisfy the terms of the PIP. I don’t think it’s unreasonable, or rather probably is a good thing. for the person affected to work with administration on strategies to reach those metrics, but also feel that it shouldn’t be entirely on the employee to basically be told “Here’s what you’re doing wrong, send us a plan for you’re going to fix it and how you’re going to know you’ve fixed it, we’ll talk again in a year”(that’s the timeline for this in this situation).

    What do you all think? What should the responsibility of each party be in this situation?

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      If a workplace doesn’t want to get down to the very specifics of “how” changes can be made, it should at least be a conversation with the employee and the employer. I can see certain areas in which the employee might be better equipped to come up with some strategies / metrics than management. But management needs to weigh in, too, especially if they’re going to be the ones evaluating and deciding whether the strategies and metrics are “enough”

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      What the hell? The employer should be setting the target metrics, and in many cases it would be appropriate and advisable for the employer to also recommend specific methods of resolution. I’m thinking of all the letters Alison gets like “my employee is failing at Task and has rejected every suggestion I’ve made, but they’re still failing at Task” – in that case, it’s totally appropriate for the PIP to say ‘you need to meet Metric for Task. In order to achieve this, I expect you to take Action A and Action B. We will check in weekly about your progress. In addition to the specific guidelines laid out in this PIP, sustained and ongoing improvement in this area is required.’

      PIPs should also be much shorter – a month or three at most. Not a full year.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I agree. I went through an extremely difficult PIP process with an employee I eventually had to let go, and my main concern the entire time was making sure that I had provided enough specific guidance that they had a bar to reach for. Otherwise, what’s the point? They weren’t at the level they needed to be but unless they understood what that level was in the first place, they couldn’t reach it. I’d have been happy to discuss different methods for reaching the same outcome and that’s where the employee’s own suggestions make sense. But the manager should be the person outlining what success looks like and what the employee has to accomplish to meet that bar.

  67. JV Dance is a hot mess candidate*

    When non-profit organizations are ‘too’ busy to respond to submitted job applications –

    What I want to send: “I submitted my application 5 weeks ago, but I am rescinding my interest. I recognize your organization’s experience and qualifications in its impact area are impressive, but I’ve decided to proceed with other non-profits whose professionalism more closely aligns with my expectations. I understand this news may be disappointing, but please know that I thoroughly researched your organization, annual reports, social media, and 990 to respond to your job posting. I wish you the best of luck finding your next candidate. ”

    Instead, I send, “Hello. I submitted my application 5 weeks ago and am inquiring about the status of the position. (Insert enthusiasm for the role which is waning after this extended period with no communication.) I appreciate your time and response.”

    I mark the role ‘closed-no response’ on my tracker because it’s been 5 weeks and no response.

      2. Colette*

        Agreed. Five weeks is not as much as it seems from the outside, especially during vacation season.

        Realistically, the only person who’d care if you withdraw is you. They almost certainly have other candidates and understand that they aren’t necessarily going to get their first choice.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Five weeks is basically nothing. I applied for something on March 31 and their online system says they’re still “reviewing all applications.” Reddit suggested this employer can take 6-9 months to hire someone, so while this seems positively glacial from my perspective, it’s not out of the ordinary for them. Whether or not that’s great for their candidate pool remains to be seen, but it’s not worth my time or energy to worry about it.

    2. Educator*

      I am a nonprofit hiring manager, and I honestly don’t think I have ever gotten back to anyone about an application in less than a month. Some of that is intentional–I want to wait until I have a solid pool of people to start interviewing. Some of it is also just the reality of nonprofit life–we go through very busy periods, and long-term planning, like hiring, is always less urgent than the day-to-day direct service that many nonprofits engage in.

      The first message would make me think I had dodged a bullet, and the second one would be annoying too–demanding a response is a little off-putting.

      I think your sense of norms is off here. Give it two months.

      1. JV Dance is a hot mess candidate*

        Well you’re an outlier because all of my applications have been responded to within 2 weeks either with an interview (majority) or we received your application. So you might want to shore up your timelines. I’m familiar with non-profit life- 24 years. There’s no reason to take so long – do you make your donors wait 2 weeks for a thank you? No.

        2 months to hear back from an initial application? You think people are just waiting around for you to grace them with your attention?

        1. Educator*

          Our system automatically confirms the receipt of applications; I think most application systems do.

          Every company is different. Our process has resulted in a highly skilled staff that shares our mission and values, so it works for us. If someone shares your impatience, they are unlikely to be a good fit for the kind of work we do, so perhaps we are helping ourselves out in a way that had not occurred to me previously!

          It would be really unhealthy for a job candidate to “wait around” for me–I assume they are exploring their options on their side just as we are on our side. That’s in everyone’s interests. We want people to choose us because we are the best fit, not because we had the fastest process. Just a different perspective!

    3. Sneaky Squirrel*

      What are you defining as too busy to respond to submitted job applications? Most organizations set up a template response that goes out immediately informing the candidate that they’ve received the resume and if there’s any interest, they will reach out. If you’re implying that you’re expecting a more personalized response for each company after only reaching that step, I feel like you’re opening yourself up to a world of disappointment. Even non-profit organizations may have 100s of applicants applying to their role times however many roles they have open that they couldn’t possibly individually respond to every applicant that comes in.

      If you mean that you’ve had contact after that step in the process and then ghosted, that’s fair to feel annoyed.

      1. JV Dance is a hot mess candidate*

        Most organizations set up a template response that goes out immediately informing the candidate – No they don’t.

        Some organizations use a general org email. But many respond with a templated email which is fine. Nothing in my post said ‘personalized’

        World of disappointment – friend, I’ve had to move 20 times in my and my husband’s military career, re-starting the job process over and over. I’ve seen more than you ever will in your career. Given this, I’ve seen every imaginable HR scenario, probably more than more ‘HR’ hiring managers have in their time.

        More than likely having to deal with non-profit staff who have less than a sense of time management or urgency is the crux of it.

        1. Colette*

          I am not sure you understand how you’re coming across.

          A non-profit’s purpose is to serve their clients, not to hire people. If you applied 5 weeks ago, that puts it at around the end of July. In many parts of the world, that’s vacation season. So people are out of the office, and of course people get sick or have family emergencies any time of year. I realize that this is important to you but their top priority is probably not responding to you.

          It seems like you’re really unfamiliar with hiring – despite having “seen every imaginable HR scenario”. Since you’re getting other interviews, take one of those posts and move on from this one.

    4. spcepickle*

      Did the job posting have a close date?
      I know my hiring process is odd because I work for government and the rules to try and prevent bias are crazy strict. But our recruiting group does not even pull applications till the close date (and we normally post for 3 or 4 weeks). At which point they sort the candidates and decided who they will put through to the hiring manager (me). I then have to sort the candidates – read all the applications, figure out who I even want to interview. All between doing my already full time job.
      Sometimes there are challenges getting an interview panel together based on schedules / vacations / holidays.

      From when the job gets posted to me calling for an interview is easily 5 or 6 weeks. If you are not in my first round of interviews it might be even longer.

      And that is assuming we are secure on funding. If we are in an odd funding cycle time (which seems like it could be common for non-profits) we might have posted assuming that some grant or legislative money was coming only to find it was back up, so now we are scrambling to figure out if we can hire. So tack on a few more weeks.

      You can mark the role as closed in your tracking if that makes you happy – But I would not bother to reach out to the company. Nothing you email will help your case, and the even the second story above might do harm.

    5. JV Dance is a hot mess candidate*

      Response to everyone –
      1. Thinking out loud for the sake of processing. None of you haven’t thought of this? Perpetual positivity monsters?

      2. IF you think you’re too busy, in non-profit (I’ve been in the sector for 24 years ) to send a ‘we have your application’ ‘we want you to interview/we don’t want you to interview’ is too much for you – please re-think what you’re doing. Do you send donor letters in 2 weeks or 2 months later? No. Then why would you do that to candidates?

      3. Every application except ONE has been responded to in 1-2 weeks with a response of some sort either no/no go. It’s possible and if you’re not doing it, you’re wrong and misguided on who you think you are as an organization. I’ve had a non-profit call me before an appointment to remind me of an appointment. I’ve had non-profits send updates for their internal processes. If they can do it, so can you.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Why do you even want to work at a place that is clearly making you really angry?

        Once an application is submitted, it’s out of your hands. If you hear back from them, great, and if you don’t, that’s fine because you’ve already moved on. It’s not about being a “positivity monster” (lol what), it’s about not worrying about things outside of your control.

        For what it’s worth, I’ve also been in non-profits for twenty years and I’ve never worked anywhere or applied anywhere that had quick replies or interview reminders. I’m glad you’ve lucked out that you’ve experienced this but I think it’s skewing your expectations of what is very much the norm in this sector.

      2. Colette*

        You’ve said this several times. Do you understand the difference between donors and employment candidates? Because there’s a pretty big difference.

      4. Mad Scientist*

        While I understand and empathize with how frustrating the power dynamic of candidate vs. employer can be, I have to agree with other commenters here that I don’t think you understand how you’re coming across.

    6. Kay*

      What on earth!? Oh goodness this is definitely some hot mess thinking. Judging by your other responses here I kinda wish you had saved the poor nonprofit some potential heartache by sending the first response. Maybe therapy could help?

  68. bk*

    I saw this resume format on LinkedIn the other day and thought it was a great way to highlight skills and directly highlight that you have the experience a job is asking for. Also could be helpful if you’ve had a non-linear career path. Curious what other people (particularly any hiring managers) think.

    [Name/Contact info header]

    Summary
    summary details…

    Experience Highlights
    1. Skill
    Description of environments and details of where and how your work experience showcases this skill.
    Key Accomplishment: Impressive numbers go here.

    2. Skill
    Description of environments and details of where and how your work experience showcases this skill.
    Key Accomplishment: Impressive numbers go here.

    3. Skill
    Description of environments and details of where and how your work experience showcases this skill.
    Key Accomplishment: Impressive numbers go here.

    4. Skill
    Description of environments and details of where and how your work experience showcases this skill.
    Key Accomplishment: Impressive numbers go here.

    5. Skill
    Description of environments and details of where and how your work experience showcases this skill.
    Key Accomplishment: Impressive numbers go here.

    Employers
    – Employer Name | Job Title | Dates
    – Employer Name | Job Title | Dates
    – Employer Name | Job Title | Dates

    Professional Affiliations & Education
    …

    1. MsM*

      I do see how it could be handy if you’re transitioning from a different field and want to highlight relevant accomplishments, but I think it does flag there’s a reason you’re not using the employer-first format that might invite more scrutiny.

    2. JV Dance is a hot mess candidate*

      I don’t know if most employers like a skill-based resume vs a chronological one. You can use your cover letter to highlight 3 key responsibilities/skills and keep the resume time formatting.

      Despite having job changes due to our collective military service, I use a chrono format because it’s what my industry is used to. I use my cover letter to write about 3 key areas with examples. I have a Canva header on my resume with ‘Excels in… ‘ and ‘Valuable skills in… ‘

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      This is also called a “functional” resume. They seem like a good idea until you’re asking a recruiter to try to reconstitute all of the pieces of your puzzle to try to figure out what the heck you’ve actually done. Every time I’ve seen recruiters/HR asked about this format, they hate it.

      This format is also likely to get shredded by an online resume upload into the applicant tracking system.

      I recommend using a strong highlights section on top to direct the reader’s attention to the most relevant skills/experience, and then carefully constructing the work history to minimize detail about irrelevant stuff and maximize examples of the relevant stuff.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        I used one similar because I went back and forth between three related job titles with multiple companies over 15-ish years. Instead of “skills”, I had different job titles.
        Think having worked in Llama Grooming for the first company; Llama Grooming and Alpaca Grooming for another company; Alpaca Grooming and Alpaca Feeding for the third company; and then returning to the first company for Alpaca Grooming. The description and Key accomplishments for each job title is the same regardless of the company.
        When applying for the Alpaca Grooming jobs, that job category is first, followed by whichever is most applicable for that particular company.
        My resume would have been too long and repetitive if I had use chronological.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d find this confusing, tbh, especially I wouldn’t know which skills you used at which workplaces necessarily (unless you’re repeating that info in the Key Accomplishments section, in which case why not just go with a chronological resume?).

      I think if you wanted to highlight both skills and accomplishments, you could do something like:

      Employer Name | Job Title | Dates
      Blurby little paragraph describing job duties and/or skills used in said job that I assume you want to get picked up by keyword scanning software.
      – Key Accomplishment 1
      – Key Accomplishment 2
      – Key Accomplishment 3

    5. Kay*

      This would not amuse me. I don’t want to have to go through mental gymnastics to figure out what you did when or for whom. The professional norm is there for a reason and I would have some serious questions about a candidate who chose to toss those norms for this. Go with a darned good cover letter instead.

    6. bk*

      Thanks everyone– all great insights. I’ll stick with my Traditionally formatted resume and continue to be wary of any LinkedIn advice.

  69. SansaStark*

    I’m a relatively new manager and I have one direct report who questions every single thing that I and other managers on our team do. This isn’t new behavior, but the frequency and intensity is increasing lately. I don’t ever want to discourage feedback, but it’s really starting to wear me down to have to justify (not explain, but justify) all of my and others’ decisions.

    For example, she suggested that we no longer need to measure llama fur before shearing it. There were a couple of reasons why we couldn’t implement that right away, but when those reasons went away, I announced that in accordance with her suggestion, we were doing away with measuring fur as the first step. She argued in a meeting with the whole team and her grandboss (my boss) that we do need to keep measuring the fur, thus confusing everyone who remembered her lobbying for getting rid of that unnecessary step just 3 months ago. The slightest change to a procedure spirals into several conversations about how this is the wrong thing and she wants to do it a different way.

    There are some other performance problems, which I’m working to address, but in the meantime, does anyone have any advice or scripts on how to handle these frequent conversations that are starting to take over my day?

    1. MsM*

      I’d start by preemptively announcing in group settings, “If you have questions or concerns, let me know after the meeting.” Or if part of the point of the meeting is to discuss the changes, be prepared to jump in after a few minutes with a “Thanks, Jane, but I need to open up the floor to other questions/move on to other topics now; let’s connect later.”

      If she does come to you one-on-one, tell her you’d like to cover it at your regular check-in so you don’t have to have a separate conversation about every little thing. Then you can use that opportunity to have a broader discussion about wanting to be open to input, but being concerned about the pattern of knee-jerk resistance to change you’re seeing, and needing her to be able to hear and understand when a decision has been made and needs to be implemented regardless of whether she agrees with that decision.

    2. Reba*

      Name the pattern and ask her to rein it in.

      “You know that I am open to your feedback, and when it makes sense we have implemented your ideas (recent example). But you are making a habit of arguing with and questioning leadership decisions to a degree that is slowing the whole team down. I’m noticing that the slightest change to a procedure spirals into several conversations about how you want to do it a different way. It’s not a good use of our time. I need to you to exercise more judgment about when you bring up a differing opinion about the team’s tasks or direction. For example, if you notice something like X (like something with safety or regulatory implications) that has not been considered, please raise it. But for issues like Y and Z, these are normal parts of how we work and I need all our team members to be able to roll with the direction that managers give. Can you do that?”

    3. HonorBox*

      “I’ve noticed that you have been questioning decisions and asking people to justify decisions. That needs to stop. It is time consuming for people to have to provide evidence and justification for decisions. And it can be a bad look for you. For instance, you’d suggested that we don’t need to measure llama fur three months ago, and when the decision came down that we’d implemented the change, you questioned the decision. That was your suggestion. Others who were in the meeting, myself included, were confused about why you were arguing that the change was now wrong. I’m happy to accept feedback, just as I was when you suggested that measuring llama hair isn’t necessary. But this isn’t feedback. It comes across as argumentative and makes making decisions more difficult. It must stop.”

  70. Echo*

    AAM readers: Help me schmooze! I’ve been tapped to attend an upcoming dinner as part of an event for potential clients. The purpose of this dinner is purely social and fun – the sales pitch parts of this event are happening later. (To be clear, these people know they are at a sales event and are attending partially to evaluate our product.) I’m in a content creation role and my content is relevant to these clients’ work.

    What do I talk to them about? Most of my coworkers go with topics like home ownership and children, or common hobbies like fitness. I rent an apartment, have no kids or pets, and my hobbies are pretty niche and/or nerdy. Do I talk about work? Ask them about industry trends? Something else?

    1. Sherm*

      As they say, people like to talk about themselves, so let them talk and show that what they’re saying is so very interesting ;) Also, I wouldn’t assume that they wouldn’t want to hear about your hobbies just because they might not partake themselves. They might be fascinated by them and have a lot of questions to ask.

      2. Clisby*

        Absolutely. My first career was in journalism, and when I was a brand-new reporter I was sometimes hesitant to ask people questions about themselves. I pretty quickly found out people love to talk about themselves. Unless I’m asking about a sex scandal, which luckily never actually happened.

    2. SansaStark*

      People love to talk about themselves :) I generally try to stick to non-work topics for events that are meant to be mainly social. My go-to questions for people I don’t know well are to inquire if they’ve travelled anywhere interesting lately/upcoming trips, or what they like to do when they’re not working. Even if your hobbies are fairly niche, you might still have some kind of overlap, but most people will be happy to talk about theirs. Good luck and it gets easier the more you do it.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Talk about the food and the drinks, which can then segue into travel and a whole bunch of other stuff.
      “This couscous is great!”
      “I know – we have a Moroccan restaurant we visit all the time to get couscous”
      “Oh fun. Have you ever been to Morocco? How did you get into their cuisine?”

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Food and drink are always easy subjects! Also, ask questions: seen any good movies lately? Did you do anything fun this summer? Have you always lived in the [city/town] area?

  71. Beka Cooper*

    I started a new job at my employer in a department adjacent to my old one. So I came with a bit of knowledge, but I’m still learning my job. My new supervisor started a couple weeks after I did. He is coming into our field from outside and is learning everything at once. He’s in a business analyst type role, and so is not only learning, but eventually tasked with improving and streamlining everything. As a result, he asks a lot of questions.

    I understand that asking questions and questioning lots of things will be part of his job. However, I’m starting to get frustrated by some of the lines of questioning. For example, he’ll question “why do we do it that way?” and lean into it seeming inefficient. But I don’t know the answer to why things are done a certain way! After I’ve been here for a while, I probably will, and will be better informed to make changes. But if I made changes now, I’d screw up the process of a bunch of other people down the line who depend on my work. Also, a lot of our processes are dependent on things we have no control over. We are one department in higher ed and a different campus controls all of the systems we work with.

    And then the thing that’s possibly even more annoying is that when he asks a question, or asks for an explanation of something, he stops me before I’ve even started and asks me about a little detail of context, and then we end up going off on a whole other topic, and I never even get a chance to explain the question I originally was trying to answer. For example, I said something like, “Well we use this spreadsheet with a list of records,” and he said, “Wait wait wait, let me stop you there,” and made me talk about how we got the list, and I never got to explain the process of what I do with the records on the list before our meeting was over. And what’s more, it feels like we have the same conversations over and over again, and I have to explain the same processes that I’ve already explained.

    Anyway, has anyone ever had an experience like this? Any advice? I’m wondering if I should be trying to just roll with it and try to be less annoyed, and I’m hoping that eventually he’ll get up to speed and be more of a resource for me as a manager.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you tried leaning in? He may someone who processes out loud, and engaging with him might help his though processes. And it shows that you’re actually paying attention to everything that’s going on, as an active participant in improving things (as opposed to someone who’s resistant to change).

      Q: “Why do we do it that way?”
      A: “I actually don’t know, I’m just learning it. But I’ll try to find out when I get trained on it. You make a good point that the ZIP code field seems weird and if I get any back-story on it I’ll let you know.”

      1. Beka Cooper*

        I have been answering his questions and participating. A lot of the things I don’t know why we do it a certain way are things that I refer to the people who do know, and then he continues to ask me the same thing again. And it’s not my area, but I never get far enough in a conversation to talk about my area. It’s like, I’m trying to explain how to slice apples for a pie, and he wants to know why the trees are pruned a certain way and how flour is milled.

        He has asked me to put together trainings for him on what I do, and yesterday we had the first one, where I prepared an overview of a system I use, with a full outline, and I barely got past the first bullet point before he asked about a detail that was only tangentially related, and then basically talked about that the rest of the time, making all my preparation pointless. As a person who does best processing ahead of time and by writing out my thoughts, being put on the spot for off-topic things has been really frustrating.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Step 1 would be the above suggestion, leaning into his communication style even though it doesn’t mesh with yours. Step 2 is to ask if you can have a conversation about communicating. Be broad about how you like to collaborate and offer observations like “you seem to really enjoy teasing out issues out loud” or “I like to really have a handle on something before connecting and you seem to be a dive-right-in type, do I have that right?”

      Before you go to Step 2 you need to make some observations about how easy it would be to have that kind of conversation with him; is he someone who is safe to have this convo with versus a my-way-or-the-highway type. In my experience people who like to jump in mid-stream tend to be pretty open to changing their mind, because they often have lots of ideas only to discard a bunch of them, or say something outloud without necessarily planning to immediately implement it. Watch him with others and observe this type of thing for a bit. If you can get him to meet you part way by sometimes waiting until he has a better picture, and if you can meet him by understanding he’s just working through something (if that’s what it is), things should get quite a bit smoother.

  72. Halp Halp*

    I and most of my editorial teammates lost our jobs in a wave of layoffs almost nine months ago. I’ve been unable to find more than freelance or short-term contract work since then. I’ve made it through multiple rounds of interviews with a few employers but still no job. Yesterday I interviewed with a small firm, and last night they invited me back for a final interview with the CEO. But some of their company policies strike me as bizarre. The workday is 7 am to 5 pm Monday-Thursday and 7 am to 4 on Friday. Anything over 40 hours is paid at time and a half, but that’s four hours of mandatory OT a week! And employees aren’t paid for holidays—they’re deducted from the pretty meager PTO of 18-21 days for the first year, which includes sick time. Do these policies seem weird to anyone else? I don’t even know what the salary range is yet, but I suspect it’ll be low, based on an ad they placed for a similar position several months ago. I’m almost 60, I have treatment-resistant depression, and a bunch of unrelated lousiness has made life even harder. I’m crushed and exhausted and scared. I just want a job I can live with.

    1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      It’s probably only 40 hours most weeks. (At least on paper; some may work more but that’s endemic in some industries.) They are probably designating 7am-5pm as “the workday,” as in it’s a window within which your hours will fall. The lack of paid holidays stinks.

      Can you speak with a current employee about how they like the job?

    2. M2*

      I would take it but keep looking.

      Look at government roles, roles in higher education, communication roles in public and private sector, and grant writing roles at NGOs.

      There are various websites for these places to look for jobs- state and fed government websites easy to look online, Chronicles of Higher Education, Relief Web, Idealist. My town where I live has the local website for roles within our town which pay pretty good and have excellent benefits maybe look at surrounding towns where you live for jobs as well. Your skill set can probably be used in various positions.

      You could also look at temping if this doesn’t work out. Sometimes that leads to FT position.

    3. WellRed*

      What sort of job is this for? I hope not some sort of content farm. And any job that deducts holidays from your meager PTO is probably best to skip on past. I’m sorry. On the plus side, you’re getting interviews.

    4. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      A lot of government contractors work the same days that their government partners do (e.g. military bases). Every other Friday is off-work. So the hours are actually 80 hours over 2 weeks. 44 on the first week and 36 on the second. For some accounting the pay week starts at “noon” on Friday. This is a pain if you’re having to charge different contracts for your time and payroll tools haven’t been updated to account for this properly, but having a three day weekend every other week is nice.

  73. Oink*

    I am a manager. One of the most common complaints I hear is some version of, “I don’t want to work with with [name] any more because [issues].”

    The vast majority of the time, those issues relate more to personality conflicts. They aren’t problems that require active intervention, like bullying or harassment. Both parties have grievances that’s a mixed bag of real or imaginary. It’s often small scale conflicts that accumulated to big time stress and resentment. Both are convinced the other is a baddie when in reality they’ve both done wrong and been wronged.

    I’ve tried to mediate on some occasions but find that to be a short term solution only. People will always people. They invariably go back to bickering and hating no matter what I do.

    The easiest solution that I can suggest is to suck it up – this is a workplace, you’ll meet people you dislike, that’s too bad. But I also recognise that an aggrieved worker is a less productive one. And I do want to create a happy work environment to the extent that I can.

    Any advice for me on what I can do; or advice I can pass on to my team?

    1. Colette*

      “Part of your job is being civil and working with your coworkers. If there is harassment or bullying going on, I need to know about it, but that doesn’t seem to have happened here, so you need to find a way to work together.”

    2. TPS Reporter*

      I took a meditation training course many years ago. It was a fascinating way to think about conflicts, as the mediator you’re coaching the people in the dispute to work it out amongst themselves. The final resolution is something they come up with. It’s not easy but I recommend looking into maybe an online course or book about mediation.

    3. Edward Fairfax, Rochester, NY*

      Have the same problem with one member of my team and several members of a parallel team. My grand manager permits the warring people to continue to avoid working with each other, so I have to follow that lead even though I’d much rather require civil cooperation!

  74. Two Billion Turtles*

    The organization where I work does an in-person event once or twice a year in a certain major US city. Over half of the org’s employees live in or near this major US city; the rest work remotely and fly in for the in-person event. (The people who live in that city are expected to work in the office two days per week and the great majority of them comply with that expectation.) Because of the nature of our work, the team of mostly junior hourly staff I manage still has to do their demanding day-to-day service job and at the same time, do the in-person event activities. If you’re thinking that sounds like a lot, I agree. No one, including me, loves that the org makes its lowest-paid junior employees take a crack-of-dawn flight to the in-person event, land, and commence simultaneously doing their difficult, high-stakes service job and in-person event activities. Making the schedule for this is a nightmare: it requires accounting for travel schedules involving different time zones, scheduling them to do their high-pressure service job + in-person event stuff, and including time for them to eat and rest. The goal is to make a reasonable, equitable schedule so they don’t end up with 12–13-hour days throughout the week. That would be exhausting, they don’t get paid enough to grind like that, and they hate it. This year I found a solution when some people from a group that provides support to our team got promoted to supervisors. Those new supervisors are all experienced and trained to do the work that my team does, and we included them in the coverage schedule. The new supervisors all live in the city where the in-person event happens, so travel and jet lag are not an issue for them, and as exempt employees, there is more flexibility with their hours. Bottom line: the new supervisors were asked to work one hour-long evening shift on two occasions during the in-person event week – in total this would add up to maybe 2-4 hours of work over 2-4 different evenings in a calendar year. This kind of request falls in the “other duties as assigned” category, and honestly, I think a good boss should pitch in a little bit so that junior people don’t get stuck with super long, exhausting days, especially if the junior people have to fly in. We went with this arrangement for the last two in-person events; it worked well. The organization is now planning the next in-person event. Enter “Bratticus”, a newly promoted supervisor whose skillset seems to consistent of two things: pointing out colleagues’ small, inconsequential errors, and complaining. Bratticus does not want to pitch in during the in-person event, at all. They live in the city where the in-person event takes place, but they feel that the expectation to commute to that event (rather than work from home as they prefer to do) is in itself “a lot of stress” and will be “too tiring”. As I noted at the beginning of this post, people who live in that city are expected to work in the office two days a week; everyone knows that local employees commute. Bratticus has stated that working an extra hour 1-2 evenings on top of commuting in during the in-person event is “too much” and will be “exhausting”. Here’s the thing: Bratticus actually does almost nothing but sit during the in-person event – the rest of the management team pours dozens and dozens of hours into the planning and execution of that event. Bratticus does not contribute whatsoever to the event – they are just a passive participant. Bratticus has asked me multiple times to be exempted from pitching in with a tiny amount of service activity during the in-person event. Now they’ve gone to our mutual boss literally crying and sobbing that these expectations are “too much” and they “can’t take the stress”. Bratticus told our mutual boss that commuting the few days when the in-person event happens plus contributing an hour of work for my team would be “very bad” for their mental health. Believe me, I get that mental illness has a real impact for people, but Bratticus is not saying they have a mental health condition. The next logical step here seems to be the reasonable accommodations process, right? That our mutual boss should start the interactive process and discuss whether there is a health condition and what accommodations might be possible to provide, right? The next thing to do is not just have a knee-jerk reaction to an emotional demand from one person and set a precedent that creates suffering for the whole team, correct? The knee-jerk reaction is what happened though: the boss ordered that Bratticus be taken off the schedule. They also decided to delay the start of the in-person event so the commute would be “less stressful” for Bratticus; that change eliminated the possibility for several junior staff to participate in a professional development activity that they were excited to do. My boss is fully aware of the consequences of these decisions for the team and me, and they don’t care. They are also fully aware of what the reasonable accommodations process looks like and they refuse to initiate it because they “don’t want Bratticus to quit”. Y’all, the entire team is “stressed” and “tired”! Personally, I am utterly exhausted: my daughter got diagnosed with a very serious and debilitating medical condition this year. People with this medical condition eventually become disabled; they have a much shorter lifespan than people who don’t have it. It’s absolutely devastated us. The org I work for has a hiring freeze in place; my team is short-staffed and I routinely work at least one 11–12-hour day every week because urgent stuff goes down at night and there’s no one else to handle it. I show up and work my butt off every week; meanwhile, Bratticus is complaining in a highly dramatic manner about being asked to do one – one! – extra hour maybe 2-4 days per year. And that’s not even the point – the point is that sometimes supervisors work an extra hour and that is a reasonable expectation to have of them and an essential function of the job. Now I have to tell my team that some of them will have very long days because Bratticus has kicked over the Jenga tower that was the coverage schedule. Looking for advice about breaking this news to them while not showing people how furious I am.

    2. MsM*

      I don’t think you necessarily need to hide your frustration. Keep it professional, but be clear that it wasn’t your decision and you did your best to push back. Maybe let the team know that if any of them need to make complaints/requests to your boss, either individually or as a collective, they have your backing.

    3. WellRed*

      Is it patient care? Otherwise, I’d quit working 12 hours a day. Managers are not indentured Serbians and it’s not your job to set yourself on fire to keep the company warm.

  75. Hudson*

    Any advice for how to ask for more positive feedback from your manager without sounding out-of-touch or immature? My manager’s feedback is always only about what I need to improve, never what I’m doing well. It doesn’t match the feedback I’m getting from coworkers or from my team lead, which makes me feel like it’s an issue on her end, but it’s really starting to mess with my confidence!

    Alternately, any ways to keep your confidence up when you have a manager who is impossible to please?

    1. Childless Dog Mom with a Job*

      ‘Ok, thanks for letting me know what I can improve. I’d appreciate knowing what you think I’m doing well or has helped you in your work.”

      This is why I never take feedback from a manager. They’re usually inexperienced or I rarely trust them. You can listen to them but those on the ground with whom you work with are much better for you. Ask your manager for a positive for their every negative. You have to train them to think positively. Sorry, no extra pay for that.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        Hm, I don’t think this is true about managers in general. Or at least, it should be the exception, not the rule. I’ve had managers like OP’s whose feedback conflicts with other feedback I’m receiving from the rest of the team, and in that case I’d lean into that aspect of the problem. OP could try mentioning that they’ve received positive feedback from others and asking for clarification about if they’re doing well given the priorities of the role (it’s possible that their coworkers think they’re great at X but manager wants them to prioritize Y).

        But plenty of managers are quick to give out praise and very hesitant to give constructive criticism. Good managers do both!

        The way you’ve phrased it would be tough to answer in some cases. One coworker comes to mind in particular (I don’t manage him but I’ve been responsible for giving him feedback in a lot of situations) and frankly, it would be really difficult to think of anything he’s doing well or has “helped me in my work” as you’ve phrased it. He does get a lot of negative feedback and I’m sure it does impact his confidence, but it’s unfortunately deserved, and I’m shocked he hasn’t been fired yet. It would be truly hard to come up with something positive to say about his work without blatantly lying. I have no issues with him personally but serious concerns about his performance professionally. If that were the case with OP, it would be understandable that they were getting mostly negative feedback. But I doubt OP is in that situation considering their team lead seems to think they’re doing well.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Some questions first…
      1. Is your manager’s feedback only verbal thus far, or is it also written, translating into a poor performance review?
      2. What do others on the team with similar tenure say? Is the manager this way with everyone or just you?

      Suggestions…
      Just as there are optimists and pessimists, there are managers who love to praise and those who love to point out errors.

      If your manager’s negative feedback is only verbal, but you are getting good performance reviews, then I’d say that you likely have someone who simply tends to focus on the negative because either a) the job warrants it, in that there are many errors that can occur, and those errors matter to the extent that they need to be pointed out when they occur or b) they are a manager who tends to focus on the negative, but gives negative feedback verbally to give you a chance to improve so that your written reviews are good.

      I personally work for a manager that is both A and B. My own job in general is a very negative feedback environment. You could complete 30 things correctly and make 1 or 2 errors and you will likely only hear about the 1 or 2 errors with zero mention of “good job on the 30 correct things.” I make a point to emphasize this to new hires and let them know that as long as they are meeting expectations or higher on their written reviews, the constant critiques are intended to make them better & more conscientious. My manager is careful to verbally correct mistakes, but to put praise in writing. I have an outstanding written evaluation and I’m good at my job, but to hear some of our conversations, you may think that is not the case.

      Also, if your manager is doing this with everyone, then it’s likely just how they are. Do the best you can, encourage open communication with your coworkers & team lead so they feel comfortable giving you constructive criticism, and take note of their positive feedback and your own accomplishments. If your manager confronts you with feedback that you feel is conflicting, during a formal/written review, it would be helpful to have a reference with all of the positive feedback you’ve received to illustrate to the manager that you are receiving conflicting feedback, at a minimum.

      For what it’s worth, I know that this type of environment can be mentally exhausting. While I’m not someone that needs an “atta girl” all the time, the occasional thank you and recognition of a job well done would be nice, and it’s hard to work for someone that rarely doles out praise or recognition.

  76. Intern Update*

    Hi! I wanted to provide an update about the intern post I made where my partner was texting a former intern in ways that seemed inappropriate. We both looked over the thread and he at least agreed that he was not setting a good precedent for the intern, and we hashed out the whole “younger woman jealousy” comment he made. He seems to have dialed down the late night texting at least.

    We have talked about it on and off and we both realized we’ve never befriended interns before (maybe when we were in our 20s and the interns were also in their 20s.) I am close to a mentor I have who is 20 years my senior, but close in a we can talk about a lot of work things and catch up on life, but I would not call them a friend but a mentor. Are intern/worker friendships a thing? Have you become friends with any of your interns?

    1. Rainy*

      I think there’s a power imbalance thing that makes it hard to become friends until much later. Mentor, yes, but the way you described both his AND the intern’s communications with one another last week just isn’t mentoring in nature.

      You’re close to your mentor NOW, but were you close in the same way when you first met them as a much younger student or professional? I bet not.

      If nothing else, the late-night “WYD” texts are booty-call adjacent and that makes them highly highly inappropriate for her to send and for him to respond to. I hope your partner gets it together, because the whole situation is bad news bears for everyone involved.

      1. Toupeee*

        Yeah I have to agree with Rainy’s last paragraph. That was not going to end well at all for anyone and I’m a little surprised your husband thought he could play that off as no big deal.

    2. HonorBox*

      While I admit that the friendships I’m referencing are not super close like the ones I have with my college roommate or my friend down the street, I did become friends with two former interns. Both of those friendships became friendships after they finished their internship, and both became what they are because the former interns ended up working in jobs that were adjacent to my organization. I worked closely with one for several years on a couple of projects. The other worked for a vendor of ours, and they were our point of contact. So I guess I’d call them professional friends, though we all know one another better than other professional friends, too.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Just stop. Do not befriend interns. Do not flirt with interns. Do not answer flirty texts from interns sent late at night. Do not text interns about non work related matters. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200$.

      If you cannot keep good, professional, boundaries with interns you should not be working with them. I don’t care if you and your husband do not feel/see a power imbalance in this, it exists regardless! Don’t prey on young workers!

      1. Moose*

        This. “Wyd” texts sent late at night are flirty. I think friendships can develop but only among people with a rock-solid sense of professional boundaries. Which, it appears from the outset that neither the intern nor the LW’s husband have. Pursuing this relationship even on “friendly” terms is a bad idea.

    4. Whoops*

      Thanks for updating us on this!

      I remember being friendly with a couple interns during one particular summer. One of them became someone I still think of as a friend today, though when we diverged more on a professional level the friendship faded somewhat as it was still primarily based in us working in the same field, working with a lot of the same people and so on. It was one of those workplace friendships that are pretty situational and can go away if circumstances change, and I feel fine about it. We’re loosely in touch but don’t really talk.

      The other intern from that year? Yeah, I was romantically interested in them. Really a lot. I was maybe 32 to their 26 and not in any kind of supervisory role at the time, but looking back I’m glad nothing happened between us. Was that part of why I was friendly to the other intern? Honestly, probably. Also, there was an unreal level of work drama happening at the entire company that summer that I had a hard time with. The fact that the difficult work period coincided with the only year I particularly hung out with/befriended interns in retrospect tells me a lot about what I was going through instead of anything about the actual friendships and though I think it was probably fine, there’s a mild ick factor to it all as well.

      The ick factor in your partner’s case? It’s about four or five notches higher, even if they aren’t crushing on the intern. There’s just a Bad Vibe to the whole thing and when it comes to this type of workplace relationship, avoiding the Bad Vibe is the only call.

  77. Annie Edison*

    Just looking for a quick gut check. I am applying for admin/bookkeeping type jobs as I transition out of education, and one employer requested that I complete two different skills tests and a video that would take 20-30 min to complete on Indeed as part of my application.
    Is that a normal request for a nearly entry-level position? I wouldn’t mind doing one quick assessment but multiple, and making a video, feels like a lot before I’ve even had a chance to talk to anyone at the company

    1. kalli*

      It’s not highly unusual but it’s at the top of what would be considered normal. The video is often a substitute for the phone screen, and a typing speed and Office/software skills test are pretty common for admin, and are usually done separately just because the software skills comes from one provider and the typing from another, so more logistics than intending to be OTT.

    2. HonorBox*

      I think an hour or so on assessments / projects is pretty fair, even for this type of position. Having reviewed A LOT of applications through Indeed recently, I think the employer is probably trying to vet whether people actually have the interest for the job and skill required.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      I don’t think the skill tests are unreasonable, since you’re changing fields. One will be for bookkeeping specifically, presumably, and the other general office skills?
      When I interviewed at an employment agency (more years ago than I like to think about), I had to take an accounting test, an Excel test and an adding machine test (yes, it was that long ago). Annie, I was a CPA with over ten years experience.
      Skill tests actually are *more* relevant at junior levels. Your experience and references are from your old field, after all. Twenty – thirty minutes to demonstrate you really have the skills you claim is a reasonable ask, in my opinion.
      The video seems a little odd, but maybe that’s just me being old and out of touch.

  78. Subtle Tuba*

    Question about university vs. workplace accommodations!

    I teach at a university (US), and many students get official accommodations for their courses through the appropriate campus office. Some of these accommodations have clear workplace counterparts, like permission to stand and move, permission to eat and drink, a distraction-free test (>work) environment, or large-print documents. One of the most common ones is extended time on timed exams, but students who can’t take tests quickly can presumably self-select for jobs where that isn’t relevant.

    There’s another student accommodation that’s fairly common, though, and it wouldn’t seem to translate well to the workplace: flexibility with deadlines and/or extended time on assignments. It seems to me that most work deadlines are “real” and involve getting results out to customers or other internal units, so there just isn’t much of a way to have flexibility. So I’m wondering: Have those of you who hire or work with recent university grads seen people try to get accommodations for deadline extensions or flexibility? Am I wrong about this not being a feasible workplace accommodation?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Well part of what goes into that kind of accommodation in a university is that the student is answering to a whole bunch of different bosses (ie professors) who aren’t necessarily working in tandem. Whereas even in a fully matrix-managed corporation, the managers are all supposed to be rowing together to some extent – and a lot of corporate malfunctions happen when managers AREN’T doing that (see also misaligned incentives). So the need isn’t the same. And it’s more situational than permanent.

      In addition, if you’ve got an employee with just lower productivity than average (not just an unfortunate time crunch), you address it by assigning them less work, paying them less, and getting them training or other resources to improve their productivity.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I guess that’s just managing a workload, which everyone has to do (and might need management help) to some extent.

      I would say that it depends on why someone needs deadlines extended regularly. (If they can’t switch gears between really different types of courses easily, then that might not be as much of an issue for an entry-level employee.)

      But jobs vary a lot in their deadline requirements.

    3. shrambo*

      Well, sort of… It’s more that homework assignments aren’t really an accurate reflection of how job responsibilities work, and so the whole “asking for a deadline extension” concept isn’t directly applicable.

      With homework, the professor gives you a well-defined task and expects to get it back on a specific date. Generally, the professor has dozens or even hundreds of other students in their various classes and does not expect to hear back from you or have extended conversations about the assignment before it’s due.

      With work assignments, usually what happens is 1 of these 2 scenarios:

      Scenario 1: my manager gives me a set of tasks with no hard deadline. We sit down one-on-one for half an hour or an hour and talk about what deliverables are and, if needed, how to do the task. My manager asks me how long I think I’ll need to complete the task. I give them an estimated date. We decide on checkpoints for when I’ll give them progress updates. We update the estimated completion date as needed.

      Scenario 2: client needs a set of deliverables by a set deadline. My manager breaks down the deliverables into tasks and lays out a suggested timeline for the team. Me and my manager meet one-on-one at least once a week for an hour, with Teams calls in between as needed, for me to update them on progress. If it doesn’t look like I’m making progress fast enough to meet the deadline, my manager talks to the other managers to reduce my workload on other clients to prioritize this one. If I truly don’t have enough time to complete the deliverable, I tell my manager and they either do some of the work themselves, remove content from our deliverable to lessen the workload, or tell the client we’ll need another week.

      In other words, there’s a lot more flexibility, in-progress check ins, and communication, and a lot fewer truly hard deadlines.

    4. spcepickle*

      TLDR: You are correct, consistent deadline flexibility is most likely not a feasible workplace accommodation.

      One of the biggest misconception I have seen with ADA accommodations is that they can be used to just change your job. ADA accommodations are not meant to nor should they overwrite a essential job duty. ADA accommodations are ways to help people achieve the essential job duties, not change them.

      The example I give is many of my team are required to drive as part of their job, I had a guy who was well liked and good at his job but because of a medical issues (seizures) he lost his drivers license. Even thought we all wanted to keep him, we couldn’t because there was no accommedation that allowed him to perform the essential job function of driving, it was terrible but we fired him (with a great reference and all the goodwill we could).

      So if a new hires (or really anyone)came to me and said – I can’t write my reports daily and I need an accommedation for more time / flexibility. We would enter into a discussion per ADA law about if we can accommodate that. My answer would be – I need reports written daily and summited before the end of your shift, this is an essential job function. What do you need to make this happen? Do you need voice to text software, a laptop set up that makes it easier to write reports in the field, more training on how to use the software effectivity, can we shift your schedule a little so we line up with a more productive part of the day for you? I would encourage the employee to brainstorm ideas on how to make this happen. The goal is that we want to accommodate you, while still meeting the essential duties of your job. If they come back with none of these help and I simply can’t do this much work in the day, or I need to do all my reporting in one burst so I can only submit on Fridays – then my answer would be, I am sorry but this is not the correct job for you at this time. And as long as I entered into good faith discussion I would be well within not only the letter but the spirit of the ADA laws.

      2. Subtle Tuba*

        This is the kind of situation I was imagining — if deadlines are an essential job function, then someone who can’t reliably meet them just isn’t going to be a good fit for that kind of job.

      3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Agree with spcepickle’s entire comment except the TLDR summary, which I would amend thus: consistent deadline flexibility is likely not a feasible workplace accommodation *for jobs in which meeting hard deadlines is an essential function* …which is not all jobs, and not even all jobs with deadlines.

        I work in fiscal/admin at a university. My job, and my coworkers’ have a lot of deadlines. They are theoretically “real” hard deadlines, with natural consequences and imposed penalties for not meeting them. They are nonetheless not met, often enough that there are established procedures for recovering from a missed deadline, or requesting an extension. I’ve never seen anyone request deadline extension as an ADA accommodation, but I have seen deadline extensions requested and granted for extenuating circumstances that were predictable and should have been avoidable. or because the person who defaulted was a VIP –an upper admin, a tenured faculty member, someone who brings in a lot of funding, someone in athletics. Arguably, meeting those particular deadlines was not an essential function of those people’s jobs– their jobs were something else, and the deadline they needed to miss was incidental.

        Regular deadline extension is not feasible and would not be a reasonable accommodation for jobs where meeting deadlines is an essential function. But *rare occasional* deadline extension when it’s not an essential job function seems entirely reasonable, since people get that for non-ADA reasons all the time.

      4. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        This is exactly how we do accommodations at the universities I’ve worked in. Can the student meet the inherent requirements and learning outcomes of the subject, if accommodations are made? The answer isn’t always yes. For example, I had a student who requested not to read any texts depicting non-heterosexual relationships in my queer studies course, on religious grounds.* Or we might have a student who cannot engage with specific kinds of content for medical reasons related to a trauma history or other mental-health issues (for example, I had a student who was recovering from a very recent episode of psychosis in which they had delusions closely related to the content of one of the core texts in the subject). Sometimes you can substitute texts or find other ways for the student to demonstrate the learning outcomes without engaging with the problematic material; sometimes you can’t, and the student can’t take the subject.

        I’m rambling on about this because I think shrambo has excellently covered the way in which deadlines are different at uni and at work (not to mention that most students are working, so they have multiple different timelines at uni AND for the paid work that enables them to attend uni), but it’s not the case that “students can get any accommodation they want at uni, unlike at work”. The process for accommodations is structurally really similar.

        *Delightfully we were teaching Dracula that year but they couldn’t read that either because it depicts blood transfusions

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I feel like the test taking accommodation, people who need that accommodation should self-select out of jobs that have firm, hard, frequent deadlines. Jobs that have major planning and timeboxed projects.

      But also what underlying issue is “flexibility with deadlines and/or extended time on assignments” really addressing? Poor time management/executive function? Just a slow worker for similar reasons that they may need more time on a test?

      But generally this is a probably not a feasible accommodation at many jobs, but also many jobs don’t necessarily have deadlines and deliverables like school does so people can not take jobs that have major components they struggle with.

      1. Educator*

        For me, the underlying issue was a physical disability made it hard to do a lot of work all at once at midterm and finals time, so I needed to space things out. In my time teaching, I saw this accommodation for dozens of reasons.

        Don’t try to guess diagnoses based on accommodations–it’s a recipe for inaccurate assumptions.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          Well, what I’m saying is that missing important work deadlines is not a reasonable accommodation. A different accommodation than “flexibility with deadlines and/or extended time on assignments” could be used to address the underlying issue or the employee simply does not take a job that has a lot of work to be completed in a short time frame.

          1. Educator*

            Flexibility with deadlines, even in school, usually means moving some up and moving some back, not just having the teacher say “do whatever you want, the deadlines don’t matter for you.” Obviously, in my professional life, I space things out by moving work forward, not by blowing off my clients. There are a lot of ways to get extended time when someone is not literally standing over you with a stopwatch as you take a test!

    6. Educator*

      I had this accommodation in school decades ago and it has absolutely never been an issue in my professional life. School deadlines are so much crazier than the deadlines at most jobs–there is inherently more flexibility in most professional roles, especially on the front end of projects. I’m actually really glad that I had this accommodation in school because it helped me get good at setting my own timelines and advocating for my own needs when balancing multiple projects.

      In most workplaces, the common accommodations you list are not even things that people need to ask for–I don’t need anyone’s permission to go for a walk, have a snack, print things with the formatting I choose, or go to a quiet place to focus. And in the rare instances I have had to request accommodations, no one is concerned about “fairness” or “proof” like they were in school–they just want me to have what I need to do good work.

      I think you can reassure your students that, while this is not universal, in many cases at many employers, accommodations will be so much easier or not even needed. And it would be really inappropriate to suggest that any accommodation they get should limit their job prospects. So much more is possible in a professional setting.

      1. Subtle Tuba*

        Well, I do think there are some workplaces where a quiet space would need to be an official accommodation! (Like in an open workspace.) And there have definitely been jobs discussed here where people were not necessarily able to eat or drink on their preferred schedule, so that one seems plausible to me, too.

        To clarify, I am absolutely not discussing this question with students at all. I was just personally curious to know whether this issue (more and more students getting accommodations for deadlines) was starting to play out in workplaces.

    7. Subtle Tuba*

      Thanks, everyone! I appreciate the insights into how flexible deadlines are in (office) jobs in your experience, and I can see that managing multiple unrelated deadlines coming from assignments in 4 or 5 separate courses as a student might be pretty different from a job situation. (Although what with preparing content and grading papers for multiple courses each semester, advising multiple student research projects, and dealing with all the random administrative tasks that get dumped on faculty, I kind of do have a large number of simultaneous unrelated deadlines myself, ha.)

      No one has yet mentioned finding that recent grads are specifically asking about making work deadlines more flexible. It’s interesting to see that this may not be a thing after all.

      And to clarify, I’m not planning to discuss my question here with students at all, or tell them they aren’t suited for the workforce! I most emphatically do not believe such a thing. I do my best to meet official accommodations for any students in my courses, and give all my students a chance to learn and grow. And I’m sure that accommodations for students are, in the vast majority of cases, approved because they are needed. I was just being personally curious about the transition to the working world for students coming from this situation!

    8. kalli*

      I had extensions and flexibility during uni – I had to jump through more hoops to get that than I did to get accommodations at my current job!

      The difference is basically at uni, if you need more time for something there’s no way to get around that. You can’t get a couple of classmates and work on it together, you can’t find something similar someone did last year and copy paste, you may not even be able to skip class to get it done.

      At work, if something’s falling behind, you have options. You can pull someone else onto it to help out. You can use a precedent or template or find what you did last time and copy paste the hell out of it. You can actually chuck more hours at it, by way of overtime or reprioritising other work. Your boss has more levers to pull to help you than a lecturer does – a lecturer can’t throw their hands up and go ‘this whole course is a clusterfudge, no more assignments until these are marked’ the way management might see an overflowing warehouse and decide to pause production until there’s room to put product in there again and oh look, everything’s on sale. A lecturer can’t jump in and actually write some of your assignment, but your boss might go ‘wow we’re overrun today, give me some of that’ or ‘don’t worry about the phones, I’ll have them diverted until we get this done’.

      And also, a lot of deadlines aren’t the same kind of ‘it must be submitted by 5pm on Friday or you lose 5% every 72 hrs’ – if something doesn’t make the mail by 4:30pm, it can just go in the mail tomorrow, or be dropped in a street mail box on someone’s way home; if a court deadline is missed, someone can apply for an extension or the timetable can be adjusted to give everyone correspondingly extra time. I have never had my medications dispensed on time when I’ve been in hospital and I’m not dead (I think).

      1. GythaOgden*

        Or to quote a line or two from the bizarre, shocking and often downright puerile Rik Mayall/Adrian Edmondson Britcom Bottom:

        Richie, to his incredibly and perpetually drunk friend: How on earth are you still alive?

        Eddie: I may very well not be!

        This is a very good post. I think I definitely failed that test in my first year out of work with one project and it was hard to come back from it. It does take a while to adjust, particularly if there’s any neurospiciness in there that does better with the structured environment of a university or school and the more proactive approach at work.

    9. YNWA*

      As a faculty member, the accommodation thing has gotten so out of control. I would bet that 75% of the accommodations we are required to give students do not translate to the real world. I know this because former students have come back and talked about what a shock it is that they couldn’t expect the same level of accommodation. The biggest is that they’re expected to be on time and follow the business’s hours or if they’re remote, they are expected to be logged in and working at the start of business. They can’t just wander in 30-45 minutes late (or log in late) and they can’t just dip at 2 because. And they don’t just automatically get extensions on deadlines.

      I think universities are doing a huge disservice to students because most don’t offer a transition experience from the leniency of college to the workplace.

      1. Subtle Tuba*

        And they don’t just automatically get extensions on deadlines.

        That’s the kind of thing I was most wondering about — your comment is from the student’s perspective (surprise that their expectations were off). I was also wondering if anyone from the workplace side had run into this kind of expectations mismatch in their new hires.

      2. Educator*

        I agree that students should get coaching on how to translate their accommodations into new environments. But the transition from school to the work world is a significant one for almost all students.

        That does not mean that “the accommodation thing has gotten so out of control.” (What a thing to say!) As a hiring manager, I have always been able to find creative ways to make sure qualified employees have equitable opportunities–100%, not 25%! It just takes a bit of an interactive process sometimes with new grads.

        And was there anything that happened in the world, say about four and a half years ago when your current students were in high school, that might have made it harder for them to develop interpersonal skills and experience reading norms, and that forced them to try to learn how to manage their own time when they were just on the edge of having the required brain development instead of being taught executive functioning skills in developmentally appropriate ways? Because I seem to remember something…

  79. Cookie Monster*

    Anyone who has used a career coach – how did you find them? What kind of questions did you ask them before you hired them? What did you find to be most helpful when working with them?

    Or if you ARE a career coach – how do people find you? What should I ask you before hiring you? What makes for the best coach/client relationship?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Getting clarity about what you want coaching about is crucial – even before you start looking.

      If you want assistance with a job search, your coach will need to have a different set of approaches than if you want assistance with building your career path and goals in the job you have (or to decide whether to leave for someone else).

    2. LadyVet*

      Thank you for asking this! I was going to ask something similar; my boyfriend’s just super stuck and I spend more time online than he does.

      I think a coach might be really helpful for him.

    3. CanadianCyber*

      I’ve used two career coaches, but I didn’t hire them. Both, were provided through a professional development program in my field. One of the career coaches spoke at an industry specific conference before the program and I was already considering reaching out to them.

      I used both for job searching. We identified areas that needed to be improved (LinkedIn profile) and also talked through industry specific things for my resume and cover letter. For me, I really needed some industry specific career advice and I found them both helpful.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I think I was one of my career coach’s first clients when she set up 20 years ago! She was recommended to me by somebody I knew in a business networking group. Like any other professional relationship, some coaches will gel with you better than others. I recommend checking their background and experience and personal references are even better.

        My coach is somebody I could imagine being my boss and over the years we have worked on career development as well as dealing with work situations (e.g the new boss who seems to have taken an instant dislike to you for no clear reason). Coaching isn’t cheap, but you do need a block of sessions to start with. Now I see my coach several times a year for what might be described as work check-ups.

        1. Cookie Monster*

          Interesting. I have no idea what rates are for coaching sessions. But it almost kind of sounds similar to picking a therapist – chemistry, background, experience, etc. Thanks!

  80. Amibetterthanai*

    My boss isn’t really managing me anymore. We meet weekly but instead of providing any coaching or feedback, they just tell me to use ChatGPT. Need input on a project? ChatGPT. Can you review this email? No, use ChatGPT. I tell them I’m struggling with something and they pull up ChatGPT and type up my issue, then forward me the results. I told them I disagreed on something and they started typing and said “well I asked ChatGPT and it agrees with me.”

    It’s so unhelpful and I don’t trust AI like that. I’ve told them that I do use it for small asks but think I’m more effective at identifying the nuances and specifics needed for our company. They disagree. Anyone know how I can push back effectively?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh boy. Yeah this is trouble.

      I hate to tell you to just do what he says, don’t review what ChatGPT gives back, and wait for a major embarrassment to occur. Because that’s gonna be what happens.

      I’d be looking for another job if I were you.

      1. Amibetterthanai*

        I know! I’m patiently waiting for this.

        Agree. It’s extremely disappointing because I love everything about this job so much except my manager.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Sounds like ChatGPT is your new manager. To be honest, I would ask my grand boss about it (but I have a good relationship with them). This sounds like the AI version of the movie The Boss of It All.

      1. Amibetterthanai*

        I have a good relationship with grand boss but grandboss and boss have a tense and fraught relationship. It could put me in an odd position. It might be worth it though!

    3. Somehow I Manage*

      Address this with your grandboss. This seems really problematic, and could be exceptionally problematic depending on your industry.

      Tell grandboss specifically how ChatGPT is being used. For instance:

      *I’ve asked for input on project X, and their suggestion was to use ChatGPT.
      *I asked them to review an email that was going out to vendor 1 about project Y, and they told me to use ChatGPT.
      *I brought up that I was struggling with ____ and I was forwarded results from ChatGPT.
      *I raised a concern about aspects of project W and they typed into ChatGPT and told me that it agreed with their assesment.

      And then I think you can say something to the effect of ChatGPT is a useful resource, but I’m concerned because there are plenty of aspects of our work that require some human interaction and relying solely on ChatGPT/AI could cause significant problems. The issue I raised about my struggles with _____ are something I would have liked to get their thoughts on because they know our work and know my job.

      And it is especially helpful if you can point out any specific areas where their use of ChatGPT has resulted in problems for the business.

      1. MsM*

        Maybe also raise concerns about how data entered into ChatGPT gets used, if grandboss demonstrates even the slightest awareness of privacy issues.

        1. Amibetterthanai*

          This is a good idea. I mentioned above that my boss and grandboss are at odds. I need to be strategic.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This is where I’d start feeding ChatGPT a bunch of source data that says “Amibetterthanai needs a raise.”

    5. Reba*

      Ok this is WILD to me, I’m really not sure how I would react if a boss said this to me with a straight face. YBSAIGTC, I’m sorry.

    6. Sherm*

      To echo the others, I think only looking for a new job or having a discreet conversation with the grand-boss (if you have the “right” sort of relationship) are the main options. Your boss has totally checked out. It’s not really about AI, so educating him about the problems with AI won’t wake him up. If it were an earlier time, he’d be saying “ask your coworker” in response to everything you said.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      This is so wild that if it was a question to Alison, I’d think it was fake.

      EVERYONE* knows chatgpt is not actually intelligent.

      * Not everyone knows that.

      Time to look for a new job. You need to escape this manager ASAP.

    8. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      I love my boss but they are starting to rely heavily on ChatGPT as well! It’s so obvious when they send an email response 30 seconds after I ask a question that consists of 1500 words, bulleted, of what to do in my situation. It’s so annoying! I just roll my eyes and tell myself it’s a shiny new toy and their use of it will probably subside in time. I hope!

    9. DistantAudacity*

      Also – the not-helpful-response: use your boss’s suggestion to ask ChatGPT, to ask it to coach you on prompt engineering, to get really good at what how you can use the language models as tools!
      Then use ChatGPT to assist you with providing counter-arguments to your boss.

  81. Justin*

    We did it! 5 weeks from job post, to HR screen, to manager interviews, to panel interviews, to an offer (being made today).

    So excited about the person we’ll be bringing on (hoping she accepts obviously).

    1. Mad Scientist*

      Is this secretly about me?! (Lol just kidding, although I am hoping to get a job offer call today! Fingers crossed!)

  82. Checking checkin*

    My CEO is having check-ins with us next week, but not to find out about our work, just to find out what we need for support. I’m new so I don’t know how honest we can be here. I also don’t think my item for support (I’m not sure how much I fit in with the culture and personalities, but I’m well-liked because I’m a chameleon and pleasant) is one he can tangibly do anything about. I also feel overwhelmed but generally don’t know what I need for support for that. A new job is just overwhelming!

    Should I just keep this to myself and keep it positive?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I would just say I’m too new to really know what kind of supports I need at this point, since you haven’t yet hit a good routine to figure out where the bumpy bits are, etc. If he pushes back, you can always say “Can I let you know when I come across a situation where I need some more support?”

    2. ferrina*

      You can be honest and positive.

      “I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed, but I’ve only been here [However Long] and I’m still learning everything. [Person] has been so helpful in making sure I’ve gotten all the information I needed- they are wonderful. And I’ve really enjoyed being able to jump into [Project].”

      Be honest but optimistic with your answers. The honesty will really help if they are genuinely interested in solving problems. The optimism will help cushion any blow back if they are not genuine in their intentions.

  83. Anonimouse*

    Do you think it is appropriate for me to ask the current VP to disclose to the whole company that she is really good friends with the person they are planning to hire as the HR Director (like she officiated her wedding level of friends). For context, she had been doing the HR work, but as the company is growing, they plan to make a new position and she thinks her friend would be great at it. I am one of a handful that work directly with her (she is my supervisor, I am not in management, and I am pretty thin on political capital right now because I have been raising company wide decision making issues for the past year). I would not feel comfortable going to her friend with an HR complaint against any of the directors, especially my supervisor, knowing they are friends, and I do not think it is widely known how close they are.

    1. Cookie Monster*

      Hmm, asking her to do it directly feels…risky. Do you have any kind of relationship with the person she reports to? You could talk to them about it and make it clear that you don’t want to face retaliation for bringing it up, or ask them to find another way to talk to her about it without mentioning your name.

    2. ferrina*

      Yikes. Yeah, HR should be able to be seen as impartial, and hiring your really good friend is a bad move.

      That said, if you have not much political capital, you don’t need to ask. You can simply mention it to the office gossip and let the whisper network take care of it (note: make sure that your information is absolutely accurate. If she hasn’t actually hired her friend yet, the friend could turn it down or someone else could be hired, and you don’t want to poison the water for them)

    3. MsM*

      I think if your VP isn’t inclined to disclose on her own initiative, let alone didn’t see this as enough of a concern not to bring this person on in the first place, it’s probably not going to be a great use of your limited capital to insist on this. Besides, what is publicizing the information really going to change? Either the HR director is capable of being professional regardless, or it’s just further evidence of the dysfunction that already exists and everyone should already be appropriately wary of sharing too much with anyone in a leadership role. I think I’d just focus on getting out if I were you.

    4. Kitten*

      People hire other people they know all the time. I think you are confused about the purpose of HR. They protect the company.

      I would always assume that HR is friends with your boss.

  84. Blue Spoon*

    I think my post got eaten, so I’m gonna try to post it again:

    Last week, my great-grandboss (gonna call her Catherine for ease of reference) sent out an announcement about a one day mini-conference related to our field that would be happening in a city about an hour and a half from our location, saying that if anyone was interested to let her know and she would send a few people. The people chosen ended up being me and two of our part-timers (gonna call them Will and Liz).

    Catherine’s assistant Anne has emailed to inform us that we can use an available work vehicle to drive there, but Will has stated that he plans to drive himself so he can meet up with friends after the conference, leaving me and Liz. Of the two of us, I have received the safety training necessary to drive a work vehicle, and Liz has not, so driving would presumably fall to me.

    The problem is that I get strong anxiety driving on interstates. I probably could force myself to do the drive if I had to, but I would be courting a panic attack the whole time, which I feel would make the drive less safe. I have looked up an alternate route that doesn’t involve any interstates; it’s almost the same number of miles but estimated to take 40 minutes longer.

    There aren’t any big problems with taking a more roundabout route in a work vehicle, right? I’ve already emailed Anne to make sure it would be okay, and if it is, I would reach out to Liz and let her know the situation (I don’t know her very well, but she seems nice and would hopefully understand). I don’t know, I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but I don’t want to mess up Liz’s experience just because I have anxiety.

    1. MsM*

      I’m not sure why you wouldn’t start by checking in with Liz, and then loop Anne in. Assuming Anne even needs to be in the loop at all; if it’s roughly the same number of miles on paper, I don’t think they’re going to care how you get there as long as you’re there on time in the end.

      1. 2 and a Possible*

        Blue Spoon is aware that 80 extra minutes of travel time may not be well received by Liz. Liz whom she doesn’t have a relationship with. So Blue Spoon went to Anne first to get the company’s authorization to take the longer route. If Liz objects, Blue Spoon can say the company’s approved this, so if you ride with me, this is what we have to do.

        1. MsM*

          I don’t know. If Liz “seems nice enough” despite the lack of relationship, it seems like Liz would either accept the route if Liz doesn’t want to drive, or figure out an alternative (including seeing about getting the safety training herself if time allows). Anne’s intervention/approval seems a bit unnecessarily heavy-handed.

          1. 2 and a Possible*

            “Anne’s intervention/approval seems a bit unnecessarily heavy-handed.”

            I agree, but everyone is not that direct. Blue Spoon chose not to be that direct, they chose to contact Anne first.

            I suspect Blue Spoon is trying to address all aspects of the situation (including the one’s out of their control) that could lead to Blue Spoon having to drive on the interstate. As an example: What if Liz goes to Anne (first) and says the additional 40 minute route each was is not a good idea because of [insert reasons]. Then Anne says “Your right! Don’t use that route. And I will inform Blue Spoon of my decision.”

            That’s really it. That’s all.

            1. Blue Spoon*

              You’re close, but actually in the opposite direction. I’m reaching out to Anne because if she says “no, you need to do the interstate route” it’s easier to justify forcing myself to do it.

        2. Blue Spoon*

          Liz works at a different branch; I covered there once and shared a four-hour shift with her, and we’re on a committee together, but that’s the extent of our relationship. I reached out to Anne first because if she says that I have to do the interstate route, I’m locked in to that, which means that I would be starting any conversation with Liz out on a different foot (or, more likely, forcing myself to drive on the interstate anyway and just not telling her beyond something like “just a heads-up, I tend to get anxious driving on interstates”–there’s enough time between now and the conference for me to get some practice in)

      2. Visually Impaired Guy*

        Agreed – if it was the same distance then I wouldn’t bother telling Anne, and I would tell Liz that you won’t be taking the interstate so you’ll be leaving at X time 40 minutes earlier.

        I’m biased because I can’t drive so I sometimes rely on coworkers driving me places. If they are driving then it’s their rules, and I accommodate whatever they need. If it was going to substantially change the cost then I would mention it to Anne, but no need otherwise.

        1. Blue Spoon*

          Fortunately part of driving a work vehicle is that I get access to the gas card, so neither of us is paying for gas. I’m more concerned about the time.

    2. Lucy*

      It seems like a safety issue to me. Panic attacks and interstates do not sound like a good mix. I think everyone involved should weigh that more heavily that 40 extra minutes. If Liz really objects, she could take her own car. (Personally I hate being trapped in a car with coworkers and would seize on any excuse to drive myself.)

    3. Blue Spoon*

      Brief update on this: I was at work for half of the day on Saturday, and I took time while I was there to email Liz, explain my situation, and ask if she was okay with the longer drive. I’m not sure what her hours are, so I don’t know when I’ll hear back from her, but the event isn’t until the end of this month, so I’ve got plenty of time to hear back from her and to try to get some interstate practice if it turns out I am going to have to take that route.

  85. AJ*

    I’m turning 38 soon, and I’m still stuck in the same entry-level Business Admin role I started in 2016.
    It’s not possible for me to negotiate for a promotion where I am (UK Civil Service) and I’ve accidentally priced myself out of doing what I do now in the private sector… also I don’t want to keep doing what I’m doing now! I want to move up, but I don’t seem to be having any luck. Any advice?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      What do you want to do? That’s probably a good place to start. From your post it seems like you feel like you’ve treaded water for 8 years, would you feel better if you were still doing the same thing but your job title better reflected your years of experience and expertise? Or do you hate what you’re doing and the same title is just salt in the wound?

      1. AJ*

        I don’t hate my job (ok, some days I hate it, but that’s normal, right?), but I am bored with it. I’ve stuck around, partly due to unrelated personal circumstances, partly not wanting the stress of changing jobs during COVID, and partly because I’ve just not had any luck job hunting. I’ve definitely outgrown it, and would like to take on something with more challenge and development opportunities, and where I feel like I’m making a difference.

        I’m lucky in that pay is based on years served, so it’s gone up every year automatically, but the downsides of that are a) we can’t negotiate salary either and b) I’m reaching the top of the pay band for my grade. So I’m being paid well above market rate for what I do – meaning a move to the private sector would be a significant pay cut (like, a 30% cut).

        I’m applying for different Civil Service roles at higher grades, but I am struggling to present the work I’m doing now in ways that would prove I’m capable of a higher grade role. It doesn’t help that all our interviews are 100% behavioral questions, and seem to be scored according to some sort of impenetrable arcane rubric…

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I was 38 the year I finally exited Toxic Workplace #2 and got into management at a different company. I had to leave; I was never going to be able to be more than I was at the company where I was. It took me far too long to realize that, but I needed to truly make my peace with that reality before I was ready to leave. AJ: things started to get a lot better for me with that change. 38 is not “I’m stuck here forever” age. The options might not be clear but they exist.

      The magic question: if you knew 100% that you could never move up at your current job, what would that mean for you? Would you be able to find a way to be okay with the status quo and focus energy elsewhere in your life or would you be so fed up that a pay cut would be the price you’re willing to pay for a role with more seniority or responsibility? Your answer will tell you a lot.

      1. AJ*

        I’m already about 90% certain I’m never going to be able to move up where I am. Promotions aren’t given here, there is no progression in that sense – the job is what it is, if you want promotion you apply for a different role at a higher grade, and you’re usually competing against external candidates as well as internal ones. It’s exactly the same as applying for a new job, and as it’s Civil Service, it’s so big that even applying for a role in a different department is tantamount to applying to a different company.

        As to whether I’d be willing to take a pay cut to move… it really depends, but most likely no. I don’t make a lot to start with – about £28k – and private sector admin roles I’d be lucky to find one at £20k, the pension would be much worse, and the likelihood of promotion to a better role is probably not much better than where I am already. I’d be willing to take a pay cut for a different job entirely, one that was perhaps more creative or that I could get excited about, and which had opportunities for progression and development, but finding something that would fit me, or who would even hire me given my career history is basically 8 years of admin, feels like looking for magic gold dust. I’m not even sure where to start looking!

        1. Ron McDon*

          I know I’m replying late and you might not see this, but I recently had an interview at a university as an administrator, and the salary was £28,000 pa, so it’s worth looking around to see what other admin jobs are paying – I feel like the pay has increased in the last couple of years.

    3. Lucy*

      I would explore other fields, so you can get a different job and make more money. I’m a similar age and also feeling stuck. I’ve started taking cheap Udemy classes to learn more about the nuts and bolts of a field I might want to move into.

  86. Mad Scientist*

    Anyone else waiting to hear back after a recent interview? The suspense is killing me! I can’t think about anything else! I’ve read the posts on this site about not getting too attached to the idea of a job before getting an offer, but nothing has worked! Today is the earliest they said they would call me, but realistically it will probably be at least another week. The funny thing is, a delayed start date would be better for me anyway, so idk why I’m so impatient!

  87. Snax Coordinator*

    Hello! Looking for suggestions. I am an admin for a summer camp and I really want to improve the training I provide to the counselor staff each summer. Does anyone know some good free or low cost resources (online classes, books, whatever!) that would help me build my skills and give me ideas during these quieter months? I am interested in giving the counselors more tools to handle everything from basics like enforcing camp policies to addressing tough things like bullying. I’ve been doing this a while and our camp does quite well, but I’m always interested in learning more. Thanks!

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t know of any specifically, but if your camp is accredited through a regional camping or recreation organization (or even if it’s not), they might have some good resources available. I used to work at a camp that was accredited through the Ontario Camping Association, and I feel like they might have had training resources for our camps team in the past (and possibly currently).

      1. Snax Coordinator*

        Absolutely, thanks! The American Camp Association sends me newsletters that include the occasion training offerings. Just signed up for one today, actually!

    2. summer camp spouse*

      I would ask this question in summer camp professional forums!

      * ACA has an annual national conference, plus regional conferences
      * ACA also has an online discussion forum for members
      * There’s a facebook group called Camp Pro Collective

      Also: I would look to your staff and campers’ experiences to help you focus on training topics. What were the themes in staff and camper surveys? What performance issues did you deal with this summer? What are your camp’s STRENGTHS that you want to build on?

      Congrats on surviving another summer and wishing you a restful fall season!

  88. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Shout out to companies that get it right.

    I’ve spent a lot of the past 2 months sick. Virus, asthma flare up, then sinus infection back to back. Finally got healthy, busy season hits like a freight train, and I go on a long planned trip. Get back and I come down with covid. My boss’ response? “Obviously you’re off the rest of this week, what do you think you’ll need next week?” Then after I told her that actually, I was planning on working from home because I felt ok to do so, she responded with make sure you sign off early if you need to rest.

    I’m massively behind at work, it is a real problem for the team, and that’s her response. No, the company isn’t perfect, but they get it right when it matters.

    1. Part time lab tech*

      Agree, my workplace has been supportive through the last month of unpredictable personal stuff. I’ve taken some personal leave and WFH an extra day.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      That reminds me of when I told my then deputy principal (he is now principal) that I would need time off for surgery and he replied that “the job comes a long way down the line after your health.”

      Again, my school isn’t perfect – what job is – but I do feel they have have my back.

  89. Jen*

    Just started my first industry job, and coming from academia. The official hours are 8-5 (and off 12-1) but people take some leeway, for example my coworker told me he starts work 8:30, so I do too. I haven’t discussed it with my manager. We usually end the day at 5. I like to take long breaks sometimes aside from lunch or log off a little early and I have noticed my manager will send me quick questions through our instant message program while I’m away, or 10 minutes before 5, even if I’m already away from my desk. They’re not related to me being away, but I think he is trying to get me not to be away as much. It’s bothering me. What should I do?

    1. Reba*

      Keep to the official hours and/or have a conversation with your manager to clarify their expectations. You’re new so it probably behooves you to be conscientious at this point.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      How about, work your assigned hours instead of starting late, leaving early and taking long breaks? Wild and wacky idea, I know.

      1. Educator*

        I remember it being a big adjustment to come from academia, where, for a lot of jobs, especially teaching or research, everyone works their own weird hours, to my first office job, where I was expected to be available and working for just 8-5 but pretty much that whole time. But it does sound like that is the expectation here. In most non-academia jobs, flexibility is a perk earned over time and only in limited ways. Different expectations!

    3. Alex*

      Seems like you should make more of an effort to be available during your official hours, since that seems to be the expectation (and really normal). Right now you say you are a) starting the morning 1/2 hour late, plus logging off early, plus taking long breaks. That’s not going to give your manager a good impression of you.

    4. Somehow I Manage*

      As others have said, you should adhere to the expected hours. Especially since you’re new. I’d wager a fair number of donuts that your manager has noticed and IS sending those messages to make a subtle point. He’s probably not being explicit about it because you are new, but he’s definitely noticing.

      I would strongly suggest that being on site and ready to work at 8, back at your desk to start at 1 following lunch, and don’t be the first to walk out the door at 5.

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Discuss with your manager what hours you should be online.
      “Hey Manager, I just wanted to clarify, is it okay to come in at 830 since that works better with my commute or should I be arriving at 8am sharp?”
      “Hey manager, could you clarify the PTO use for me, if I take an extra 15min in the afternoon to go get a coffee should I be logging that or making it up by staying later?”

      For what it’s worth, I think you are in the wrong and they’re going to build a case against you. Industry tends to see it as time theft, not working the hours you agreed to as lying as well. Very different from Academia. Tread carefully. And remember your coworkers might be in different situations (ie Boss agreed to give George 30min early departure daily since he has a weekend 2hr task etc). If you have to badge in or out, or login to any devices that’s really easy to pull time stamps. Many places also have cameras on entrances, easy to pull if HR decides to go after you for lack of hours.

      1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

        “For what it’s worth, I think you are in the wrong and they’re going to build a case against you. Industry tends to see it as time theft, not working the hours you agreed to as lying as well”

        She should definitely clarify with her boss but I think you’re fear mongering a bit here – there’s been no time theft, no lying, and there’s no indication anyone’s building a case against her

        1. Cordelia*

          She is not working hours for which she is being paid so this is absolutely time theft, the manager has clearly noticed and I think is highly likely to be building a case against her. Without any discussion or prior agreement, she is starting late, taking long breaks and leaving early – why would a manager just let this go?

          1. Educator*

            Time theft is a pretty big leap–we don’t even know if this is an hourly role.

            If I noticed that one of my employees was not working her required hours, I would talk to them immediately to clarify expectations and coach them, not start secretly building a case against them.

            OP needs to recalibrate to the norms of their new industry, but they have noticed the issue and want to take action to resolve it.

            I think people who have not worked in more flexible jobs like academia take set hours for granted, but they are not universal to all jobs. We’re here to learn!

        2. GythaOgden*

          It’s been really, really common in my working culture that you turn up when you’re supposed to, take the break you’re assigned to take and stay until the time you’ve been asked to stay to. It’s not usual for general timings to be policed very strictly, but in general you need to put in the time at least until you know how your workplace really functions and what your managers think.

    6. DottedZebra*

      You don’t have the right to be irritated by your boss expecting you to work during work hours. Sorry.

      “Leeway” isn’t permission to regularly work less than what you’re being paid for. It’s so you can leave a little early once in a while to make it to an appointment. Or to start a little late because you had an errand to run.

      Especially as a new employee, you need to be working 8-5 as required and not taking extra breaks.

    7. Cordelia*

      This is your first job, you’re not working the required hours, your manager has noticed and is monitoring you. Do you actually want this job? If so, you need to start doing what your manager expects of you, or you’re going to be looking for another job pretty soon.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      With flexibility comes responsibility. And vice versa, really. You say you “just started”, yet you’re already working fewer than your assigned/expected hours? That’s not good. You’re unavailable when you’re supposed to be available. There are limits, of course, but being able to take long breaks or leave a few minutes early is a privilege, for one thing, and for another, doesn’t mean you can’t be reachable.

      Does your boss know you’re logging off “a little early”? Does he know you’re taking long breaks? I’m guessing he does not– or he believes that even if you leave early, you should be available to answer quick questions. And that’s not egregious, that’s the small price to pay for flexibility.

    9. Mad Scientist*

      Mainly here to agree with other commenters.

      I enjoy a lot of flexibility in my current job. I basically work the hours I want as long as it adds up to 40 per week (or more… often more) and as long as I reliably respond to messages / emails / calls / requests within a reasonable timeframe. I often leave the office very early to run errands, but I continue working remotely after getting home. No one cares that I finish early on Thursdays for a scheduled hobby activity because I also start earlier in the morning to make up for it. What I’m trying to say is… If you want the flexibility your coworker has, you have to have a reputation for reliability and be mindful about shifting hours to make up for coming in late or leaving early.

      I have a coworker who habitually starts work later than most of us, takes a full hour of lunch, and then leaves / logs off earlier than most of us. Even when he was new. He seems to think we get paid for lunch (we do not) and that people who leave early are actually finished working (not true – they’re usually back online later in the evening). His timesheets claim that he works full time, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him work a full 8 hours in one day or a full 40 hours in one week. It’s absolutely noticeable and not a good look, especially when the rest of us are often working overtime. You don’t want to be that guy!

    10. M2*

      You’re new you should be available 8-5 or whatever the hours are. If you go away occasionally for 5-10 minutes that is okay (bathroom, quick walk) but doing it all the time and signing on late and signing off early as a new report wouldn’t be a positive where I work. You also shouldn’t be doing those shirt breaks close to your (what sounds like) lunch break. If you’re allowed off from 12-1 you shouldn’t need a short break for a couple hours before and after your lunch. Honestly you must be offline a lot for your manager to notice!

      People usually get flexibility after they earned it at work/ been there awhile or if there is some kind of emergency.

    11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yikes. Some jobs allow you to set your own hours so long as the work gets done, which is what you are assuming, but this job doesn’t sound like that.
      The hours you listed are specifying a 40 hour week with defined work times and you sound to be well below 40. Your manager has noticed and he is “bothered” – but he has a lot more justification to be than you do!
      You are new, with no track record and not only are you not making up the 30 minutes from 8am, you are actually taking additional long breaks and leaving early sometimes.
      Also, are you even producing all the expected work within your shorter hours, despite being new?

      Just work the exact hours you are supposed to, for at least 3 months to reassure him, then you could ask what flexibility you can have wrt start time. It may be that you can adjust your hours slightly but only if you still average 40. Additional long breaks would likely be a tough sell in this type of job, if merely a preference.
      You likely would already be allowed flexibility to deal with exceptional circumstances e.g. burst pipes but you should ask your manager each time since you know he is concerned about your hours.

      Your coworker who starts at 8:30 may have asked permission for this and have a specific reason. He might make up the time by taking shorter breaks or working when he gets home. He may have earned flexibility by having a reliable track record for some time of producing the goods.

    12. Bookworm*

      Work the hours you’re paid for and expected to work. You work your 8-5 and take your lunch. You don’t have flexible hours. Industry is not like academia. I have friends in academia and I’m told hours can be quite flexible. Not so with industry unless you are specifically told to. You stay until 5. If you need more work, you ask for it, from boss or help coworkers.

      Do you want this job? Why did you take it if a strict schedule is such a problem?

  90. Bluebonnet*

    If you are neurospicey, are you “out” at work, or do you keep your neurospicey diagnosis to yourself? If you did choose to tell people at work, did it go well?

    I am a female on the Autism spectrum and occasionally have misunderstandings at work related to my Autism, such as missing cues or not reading statements between the lines. Most co-workers are okay with this, but a few seem annoyed at me when this happens. I am trying to figure out whether telling them about my Autism would be helpful towards mutual understanding.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      You can always tell them about the particular relevant traits without explaining they’re a result of autism. You could say something like, “I tend to be bad at reading between the lines. It SOUNDS like you want me to do X, for reason Y, am I missing anything there?”

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I honestly don’t know if I am autistic or not, so I don’t really feel I can be “out,” as it’s just a suspicion I have, but I did sort of hint to the teacher of our ASD class. She was asking me to work with some of her students and mentioned I had a good rapport with them and without even really intending it, I said something along the lines of how there might be a good reason for that. She just laughed and said something along the lines of, “yeah, but even apart from that…”

      I suspect she and at least two other colleagues have their suspicions, to be honest. And while I haven’t directly mentioned autism, I have commented on having a sensory issue with food and with busy environments and disliking unstructured situations and at one point told a colleague, “oh just my usual inability to understand normal human interactions” (I suspect that colleague is neurospicy herself, so I thought she’d get it).

      I did see a pretty good outcome of somebody divulging autism at our marking conference last year. We had the first day of the conference in person, in a pretty noisy room and the second day online. And somebody said could they ask a few questions because they were autistic and found it difficult to process information in busy noisy environments. Our advising examiner was not only happy to answer those questions but also suggested they mention that the environment had not been suitable on the report we have to write at the end.

    3. AJ*

      I’m a woman with ADHD. I’m pretty open about it where I work, and I have to say the reception has been… mixed.

      I’m Union (and a union rep) and have strong legal protections against discrimination, plus where I work they do try to encourage diversity, so I’ve never felt it was unsafe to be “out” at work – but I’ve had managers and senior colleagues be kind of infantilising about it, or just not understand, or make sweeping generalisations that don’t apply to me (and then get mad when their “helpful” suggestions are rejected).

    4. summer camp spouse*

      (not neurospicy, have loved ones who are)

      A “middle ground” option could be to explain the context but not the diagnosis. For example,

      “oh, what do you mean by that? I have a hard time with analogies.”

      “just checking, did you want me to take the lead on X? I do better when the expectation is spelled out clearly.”

      “hey, next time just tell me if you want me to stop chatting so you can get back to work! [I might not notice otherwise!]”

      Alison has written before about how you definitely can share a diagnosis, but it’s risky unfortunately, so she usually only recommends it if you’re asking for a specific accommodation. Also, I think this would be a great “ask the readers” question.

      1. Educator*

        This is a great way to go. I’m not always sure what to do when someone tells me a diagnosis because neurodiversity manifests itself in so many ways for so many people, and I don’t want to make any assumptions. (I just follow up with “is there anything I can do to better support you as we work together? Anything you need from [company]?”)

        But when someone tells me an actionable thing I can do to make their life better, I am very happy to do it! We should all be empowered to tell people what we need to ensure shared success.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Yes. That’s basically what I do. Like I said, I don’t know if I’m autistic or if it’s sensory processing disorder or something, but I am pretty open with my colleagues about the fact that hey, I sometimes need clear instructions. Can you clarify what you mean by X? or sorry, I get a bit disoriented in crowded situations or whatever.

          My colleagues actually get really protective of me on nights out/staff parties, to the point of asking me what I want to eat/drink and ordering for me. They seem to realise that busy environment with pretty complex social rules (what can you order? how much can you ask for adaptations? who orders first? should you offer to buy drinks for others? who orders first at the bar where there isn’t a queue?) isn’t somewhere I do well. A classroom where I am in charge and people are sitting at desks in front of me suits me perfectly.

    5. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I’m not out and I think someone who is cranky about interpersonal friction is unlikely to be additionally sympathetic about neurospice. I would address or explain the broad situation (“sorry, I think I misread xyz earlier. Apologies for making that conversation more awkward than it needed to be” or whatever) versus being explicit about neurodivergency with someone who may not be on your side.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I have discussed it in DEI groups, and in my extended team because we were having a guided discussion about different types of masking and code switching as part of our annual Week of Understanding. (There’s a different theme every year).

      It has been absolutely fine. But I would not have done so on other teams I’ve had in the past.

      A coworker of mine has told me about her Dx but is not generally open about it. However, she often tells people things like, “Hey, I’m super literal, so can I clarify…” Or “Did you mean literally X?”

      People seem to take it and adjust very well, but we have a lot of really literal concrete thinkers in this job because of the nature of the business.

    7. GythaOgden*

      Full blown autistic here. I’ve been out since I started working after my diagnosis. It helps me get the support I need from colleagues and is something that I can use my social and economic privilege to help others feel more comfortable sharing. I cannot mask at all and thus it’s been a game of learning how to balance my struggles with the needs of the job, and having a very steady, secure job with a healthcare provider working in the mental health arena itself has been amazing. (I work with one of my former doctors and he was so happy to see me working and I was really glad to be able to serve him in the capacity of a colleague. He also did a lot of work on women with autism so I was happy to be his case study simply to get things moving a lot more on that front.)

      I transferred to an NHS property management division a few years ago but they are even better at awareness and support, and colleague wellbeing is treated as a health and safety issue — we can’t do good work for the org and for the people we serve as part of the NHS if we can’t look after ourselves and others. Managers are supposed to model good self-care behaviour and the attitude is really great — step away for a bit, make a cup of tea and come back when you’re ready. After coming back from leave herself, my boss is now helping another guy who gets anxious about stuff to divvy up his workload and not stress about other things. That’s the sort of proactive help everyone gets and so I know when I have needs I won’t have to fight for them.

      Their diversity training emphasises individual needs as well as collective awareness, we have a really good mental health first aid team who can provide casual therapy and support in the workplace and there is a recognition that mental health cuts across many other social boundaries and affects even the most privileged people in society. We try not to pigeonhole people into their separate groups and it feels amazing to not have the prejudice or assumptions either way. I also feel safe making comments about accessibility issues and imperfect messaging because I know people are trying hard and won’t get it right all the time, and thus it’s down to me with my lived experience and social privilege to speak up on these things. Kind of like ‘ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country’ as well as Marx’s slogan ‘to each according to their need, from each according to their ability’.

      If I could function adequately at work without it, I’d rather not disclose, but since before I got my diagnosis and worked hard on therapy etc I couldn’t hold down a job, it makes more sense for me to be out and in a supportive environment than it does for me to keep things close to my chest. I’ve got enough of a boost from being in that environment that I might be able to go elsewhere, but actually, I have a good thing going here and actively want to stay.

    8. maybe a little*

      I work at a huge site where there is only one other employee in my same role. We both started at the site around a year ago. He disclosed his ADHD to me so I disclosed my AU to him. It’s a helpful background when we discuss our frustrations or confusions about work happenstance or requirements. I have told a couple of other people that I work closely with depending on circumstances, but I’m still not “out” in general. Our role is already considered to be a bit “odd” in the overall organization without any disclosure of neuroatypicality.

    9. Nightengale*

      People at work know I’m disabled and neurodivergent but I haven’t specifically said autism. (some people have guessed.) I’m in a field that specializes in care of neurodivergent kids so I generally try to portray it as an asset.

      I don’t have a lot of relevant advice though. . .the accommodations I have needed have more been for physical and visual processing stuff. Social interactions have gotten a lot easier now that I’m out of training.

  91. Agnes Grey*

    A question for anyone out there who has a library/information science degree but works in a non-library setting: do you put your MLIS (or whatever yours is) in your email signature or on your business cards? If you do, have you gotten questions about / reactions to it?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If it’s not relevant to the industry or the setting, I wouldn’t put it there. It just adds a confusing bit of information to the end of your name.

    2. Mad Scientist*

      Assuming you’re referring to a masters degree, don’t do it. I was just looking back on this AAM post about this question the other day: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/12/telling-a-coworker-she-has-b-o-putting-degrees-in-your-email-signature-and-more.html

      I happen to work in an industry where a very specific abbreviation is common in email signatures for legal reasons (it’s a regulated professional license, and it’s often important to know if someone is licensed or not) and other than that, the only abbreviation I sometimes see is PMP. People do not add their degrees unless they have a PhD (and even then, a lot of people wouldn’t list it in an email signature). I’ve only seen one coworker include an abbreviation for his masters and it honestly makes him seem less experienced / qualified, not more. Masters degrees might look good on resumes but they don’t belong in email signatures. It will just look like you’re trying to inflate your credibility imo.

      1. GythaOgden*

        I had a place to do my PhD at Kings in London when I started working with the NHS as a receptionist. (It was originally to tide me over until I got funding, but I never did, and I ended up marooned there for much longer than I should have been tbh.) I’m wondering now whether, if I’d got it, say, working on a part time basis through the uni, whether it would be good to call myself Dr Ogden (my real surname) on reception or not. Having a Masters is neither here nor there since you don’t get a fancy title, but I can well ses myself wearing that appellation while doing a laid-back admin role.

        I still aspire to be a Dr, but since my area of study is Eastern European politics, specifically Russian, I’d much rather get it in history than in any kind of current affairs study as you can quite imagine. I might be one of those people who just goes back in my retirement because I can.

        IDK, perhaps I have an unrealistic view of getting a doctorate in the first place, but my mum said (at my Masters graduation ceremony where I had to hand the robes back when we were done with the photos — I looked so much like a vampire that I’m surprised they were able to print it out) she’d buy me the gown and mortar board if I got it, so there’s always that…:-/.

    3. Mad Scientist*

      Assuming you’re referring to a masters degree, don’t do it. I happen to work in an industry where a couple specific abbreviations are common in email signatures for legal reasons, but people do not include their degrees (unless they have a PhD, and even then, maybe not). I’ve only seen one person include an abbreviation for their masters and it honestly just made them seem less experienced. It comes across as trying to inflate your qualifications in most circumstances.

      1. Agnes Grey*

        Thank you for these replies and for pointing me towards that post, I appreciate it. My workplace includes many small teams that each have very different specialties, some of which typically involve degrees or various certification. Some people will list their certification if it’s directly relevant, which seems fine, but I just noticed that our HR person uses their MBA, which seemed like peacocking. I often feel that the knowledge work my team does isn’t properly recognized, an MLIS isn’t required for it but several of us have it and we do the work better because of it, so I did wonder whether using it might reinforce the fact that we’re professionals with a specific skill set, but on balance it seems best to continue not using it. Thanks again!

        1. GythaOgden*

          I think it’s valid for someone working in the HR department to put her MBA up. It suggests to others that might be more interested that she can navigate between the concerns of both employees and the business needs and speaks the ‘language’ on both sides. It may /feel/ like she’s bragging, but it’s useful to be able to have a short code saying ‘this person isn’t clueless about business reality’ after their name.

    4. GythaOgden*

      I can put MRes (masters in research, in my case, law) after my own name but for an administration assistant it would sound pretentious. (Not that an admin assistant shouldn’t have an MRes, but that unfortunately is has a very limited impact on my job and my skills as an admin seem to speak for themselves anyway.)

      The only person I know who puts his degree in his signature has a job that reflects his knowledge, so it doesn’t look too jarring tbh.

  92. Jim Bob*

    I wrapped up my current employment this week and am starting a new position that hopefully will have more work-life balance (woohoo!) However, I am struggling with burnout, and was not able to take any time off between jobs due to health insurance.

    Any tips on how not to carry over burnout to the new job, and to hit the ground performing at a high level? I was hired on at a senior level, and in this industry that means results will be expected quickly – added to the normal need to make a good first impression.

    1. early career accountant resume?*

      I will be applying to regular full time GL accountant roles and/or public accounting internships (nearly identical pay ranges LOL). I have been working towards an accounting degree while working AP/AR for 2 years and GL accountant for 1 year. I just quit to focus on school because the understaffing hit truly untenable levels. Turnover was really high.

      Accounting managers, would it make more sense for me to lean more towards the “these were all my tasks” type of job summary rather than Alison’s accomplishment phrasing? I feel like the main concern with 1 year of experience is “have you even done X (BS recon, bank rec, cash forecast, approving AP, income statement, etc) by yourself and gone through the process of troubleshooting accounting software and broken Excel etc”? Most of my real accomplishments were related to just getting basic stuff done in a shitty work environment, I can’t put that on a resume.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        For the public accounting, lean on your education. The big firms prefer fresh credentials without any bad habits to train away. (Or just not their particular way of doing things)

        For accomplishments, you completed everything on time (assuming you did) while troubleshooting and remediating technical issues. Right? That’s an accomplishment in itself.

        Can you point to any way you introduced efficiencies in order to get everything done on time? Month-end close by the nth business day, time-sensitive AP/AR processes… Did you improve the aging analysis or reduce late payments? Revise or create any management reporting? Update or even create desktop procedures? Catch up on a backlog?

        It might be worth mentioning which accounting software you used. If Employer X uses SAP, for example, and you already know SAP, you won’t need as much training: point in your favor. If you’ve worked with several different accounting packages, that shows you’re adaptable and learn readily.

    2. Trevor*

      I would say you need to identify what the causes of the burnout were at your previous job and make sure those are snuffed out from the very beginning of this new gig. For example, if you were regularly getting pulled onto 2am calls, start dropping hints here that you don’t generally have your phone on after X hour. If a certain task was constantly taking up too much time, make sure that you ask early on about what the support will be for that task this time around.

      That may require some honesty with yourself as well. If you were constantly working 16-hour days, why was that happening — were you being too much of a perfectionist or giving in to pressure from a toxic boss? Proactively look out for those patterns and make sure they don’t start to repeat. It may also be beneficial to go in with a hard and fast rule at this new job: You will not work past X hour outside of emergency circumstances, and your excuse if necessary will be [childcare/parent care/dog walking/band practice/what have you].

      1. Jim Bob*

        Thanks. I think it’s really self-imposed perfectionism to some extent, combined with consistently elevated workloads at the last employer. I know I should set good boundaries right at the outset to prevent a repeat, but ’m having trouble reconciling that with the “initial push” that a new job often requires to get up to speed. And frankly, I’m just tired, but don’t want to come across that way to my new manager.

  94. Workload & Pace when Switching Jobs*

    Have you had any experiences changing jobs and finding the pace/amount of workflow quite different? I had an interview this week for a position that could be a great opportunity. Everything seemed like a good fit, but the hiring manager talked a good deal about the amount of work and things popping up often unexpectedly. This would be a career change for me to a different field, and I’m used to a quite busy schedule/active job. Maybe what he finds busy would just seem normal or even slow to me.
    Any tips on how to judge the pace/workload of a team and a position from the outside? What would be some useful questions to ask in a second interview?

    1. Educator*

      I’ve definitely worked in jobs that are busy in different ways over the years–busy schedule vs. busy and slow times of year vs. random urgent tasks vs. lots of things that are all self-paced.

      I would ask someone at your level (not the manager) to describe a typical day during their busiest time of year, ask the manager how he sets priorities, and ask everyone for a lot of detail about the type of tasks you will be working on and what percentage of your time will be spent on different parts of the job. And make sure you have learned about the new field generally by having some really candid conversations with people about workload–some types of jobs always overwork their entry level people. And this is a little sneaky, but I once walked by a prospective employer’s office at 6pm on a weekday to see how busy things looked and how many lights were still on!

    2. Trevor*

      I’ve found that speaking from a deadline or timeline perspective can be effective. “So for X project you just mentioned — what would the typical allotted turnaround time be for something like that?” I also recommend asking for concrete examples of how a day might look, rather than just hypothetical questions about the workload — “Can you walk me through the day you had yesterday, the various tasks you had to work on , and the timeframe of each one?” And for the stuff popping up unexpectedly — “Can you talk about the last time this happened, and in general how often does it happen?”

      Also, if you have any contacts in the field who also has experience in your old field, it’s worth reaching out to them and asking how the pace of the two industries compares.

    3. Nicki Name*

      “What hours are you typically here?”
      “When was the last time you had to work late or on a weekend?”
      “Is there a particularly busy time of year?”

  95. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

    Hi,
    Appreciate thoughts on what to do as I’m experiencing severe mind-tangles.

    Potted history: Deemed a very smart child but struggled, had strict isolating upbringing and was bullied in school. Had a breakdown, left school system – without any formal certifications.

    Immediately started working but never really lasted anywhere, would ‘master a job’ then get entirely bored or my working style quirks didn’t land well. Not having any education/degrees meant that I had to prove myself x 2, being a woman and PoC added another multiplier to that formula. Especially as my path became very corporate/city based at time where you clearly were a token, ‘acceptable hire’ in the first place. Quickly in, quickly out.

    Worked as an independent, still hopping around not really lasting in roles for more than 6 – 18 months – boredom which would become painful and then sliding performance or poor work attendance.

    Fast forward a couple of decades to this year (many more very miserable and painful personal and professional experiences) and I am struggling to function, finish tasks, not isolate and not cry often. Diagnosed with C-PTSD (could write a very depressing book as to the reasons) and ADHD. The inattentive, dissociative kind. I have kind of been in a spiral since. I am not medicated.

    Work contracts have gotten sparser, less interesting and financially I am fully, fully depleted as pay has dropped significantly and taxation has increased. I am earning less than half what I did last year and if I lose my current work, I will lose my home as I have been unable to secure anything so far to replace this contract.

    I don’t know where to begin to change things, change myself, and also can’t afford any resources to help. I am depressed, stuck and anxious. Strangely, current contract workplace claims to champion ‘values and neurodiversity’ – unless you actually are neurodiverse. Then you are made miserable and micromanaged within an inch of your life.

    Is there anyway to turn this around? I’d like a fulfilling career but now fear that it’s too late, not certain about my reputation or even my capabilities anymore. I have had too many short term contracts to be seen as a desirable hire for anything of substance or longevity.

    Also know I need therapy, I am trying to find local offerings which are free/low cost.

    Thankyou

        1. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

          This is also true. I have been looking into alternatives – vitamins/bio-hacking to see if anything there could be useful.

    2. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Does your current contract include access to an Employee Assistance Program (EAP)? It is a limited number of sessions (most of mine were 6, one allowed up to 12), but it is a starting place for therapy that is already included in your benefits. Some of the counselors might even specialize in career advice / development.
      My commiserations. I’m struggling with unreliable workplace attendance and general life disatisfaction for mainly mental, partially physical reasons right now myself.

      1. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

        Hello,
        Unfortunately no. There are no employee benefits available as a contractor where I’m based.
        Sorry that you are in a similar position.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Look into some of the online therapy apps. They are often more affordable.

      The most important practical, physical things you can do for brain health and focus are:

      Improving quality & quantity of sleep;
      Regular, moderate exercise;
      Regular time spent outdoors in natural light, especially in a place you can see trees and plants;
      (Walking outdoors helps with both of these)
      Eating a relatively balanced diet of minimally processed foods, with 5+ servings of fruit and veg per day.

      Keeping any kind of regular habits is hard with executive dysfunction, but these behaviors are always beneficial, even if irregular, and each one makes the others easier.

      There is a useful Captain Awkward post called “how to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed,” which is equally helpful for other types of overload and exec function issues.

      I’m a fan of the books “Smart but Scattered,” which discusses how to deploy your strengths to compensate for your weaknesses, and “Work Clean,” which discusses creating personalized approaches to work that you can iterate and evolve as you learn.

      Best wishes, hope things take a turn for the better.

      1. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

        Thank you for this. I also really like Captain Awkward’s advice generally so will look for that post.
        I’ve been trying to tackle some of those aspects but on bad days…. everything goes out the window. I guess it’s just a case of ‘keep trying’. I’ll look into the book recommendations. I looked and through various titles but not enough were skills based. More so ‘ADHD is your superpower’ when it currently feels like the millstone around your neck, arms and ankles.
        Thanks for your recommendations.

    4. kalli*

      Do you have any qualifications now? Work experience aside, can you look at getting your high school equivalent through a community program, or specific qualifications for a job you would like or have done?

      The benefit of many short term contracts is that someone can see you’re willing to get in there and try new things and will do whatever to be working and getting things done. It is not the end of anything and it isn’t too late, but it’s going to need you to actually look at your skills and experience and identify the work you can and want to do, and emphasise in interviews that you need constant challenge and like to always be learning or progressing.

      1. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

        I have some industry-specific certifications, but these are short course qualifications. Nothing substantial which would give a sense of skill like further or higher education qualifications does.

        I have attempted university without the standard entry criteria and then quit after a couple of weeks, more than once. I would like to graduate next time I apply, if I can get my ADHD and self under better control as well as with better systems in place. It will always be a regret if I don’t.

        I’d agree about with the perspective shared if it hadn’t have been the same short term contract loop for 20 years. The opposite seems to be the reality now. I am not young anymore unfortunately, so I really don’t have the luxury or excuse. Also saying ‘willing to learn’ just doesn’t cut if for hiring managers if you are past a certain age nowadays especially as I cannot go to a beginners salary.

        I think your reply is really helpful by the way Kalli – thank you. I do have to look at my skills. I have always been better at helping others (often to my detriment – I can be like a succubus beacon) so I have a sense of what I could do but I would need qualifications….which means all the things above, getting ADHD managed, myself in therapy (it would be mandatory for what I am considering) and better self all round management (which would also be mandatory for the qualifications and highly necessary for the work).

        Thanks again (this community is fantastic – and you have saved me this weekend)

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      Could part of the problem be that you are underchallenged? It sounds like you are really smart but school didn’t suit you and therefore you don’t have the qualifications for the kind of jobs likely to be right for you.

      Would it be possible to get some qualifications at night school or online? Those kind of environments are very different from the formal school system and might suit you better. That probably isn’t much of a solution in the short term though.

      1. EverywhereIGo-YupThereIAm*

        Hello Irish Teacher,

        I think so. I am not stimulated by the work I do at all and haven’t been for a long, long time. It used to pay well so that was a distraction. Also, for someone that didn’t have qualifications, it was always a boon to work with those that had all the qualifications – sometimes I’d be managing them. However now I find myself in pickles being distracted/drawn to work that isn’t ‘my’ work. I am bored but also so distracted. When I do get enthusiastic, I’m quickly put back in my box. I see solutions quickly and like to work with people to overcome their blockers so they can produce what’s needed. I enjoy collaboration and group thinking. Except that’s the wrong thing to be doing. I need to be driven by getting output only. Like a process monkey. So I end up chaotic, washing dishes when I should be developing plans. Daydreaming when I should be writing reports and etc. Even doing my taxes. Every deadline is a panic, and I have multiple, weekly. I am just not cut out for it anymore.

        Just to explain I guess: I have always felt I needed to ‘prove myself’ because of the lack of schooling and working with people who had the right education and ‘given me a chance’. I used to seek out opportunities, read stretching books etc, try to meet interesting people to help with mental sharpness. Then I married someone who was challenged by how I thought, wanted to bring me down a peg or ten, so after too many years of abuse, him relishing in my repeated missteps/work failings/bad decisions, etc and me dumbing myself down then shrinking into nothing, I am trying to come back from not knowing myself anymore.

        There is a weekend course I would like which starts in January for a a number of weeks. If I can resolve my immediate situation then it could be possible.

        Thanks for the reply and suggestions.

  96. acmx*

    I’ll be traveling for work near Indianapolis (IND airport) and I’m looking for nearby restaurant recommendations and that have more than just fried food. I probably want to stick closer to the airport as it will be a quick tip.

    1. Edward Fairfax, Rochester, NY*

      Consider The Milano Inn, although it is closer to the downtown area, for Italian cuisine and historic murals, etc.

  97. Chicky*

    What parts of a job description can you not meet? I always see advice that you don’t have to match 100% of a job description to apply and maybe have a chance. But I don’t know if I understand how to tell what parts are just their wish list and not really core requirements.

    For example, I saw one job where I met all of the hard and soft skills and am sure I could do the job with whatever the typical training someone new to the job got. But it asks for 2 years of experience in something very specific that I don’t have. Should I still apply?

    1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Is it something you can be trained on, and how easily? I just had a phone screening for a position that wants a year of experience with a niche piece of software. I don’t have it, nor did the recruiter bring it up, and my resume is being passed on to the hiring manager anyway.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Yes, apply. There’s no way to know how they have weighted the various aspects of the job. That might be a hard requirement or something they could work around for the right person.

      The worst that can happen is they don’t call you.

    3. Educator*

      Yes, apply. As a hiring manager, if I ask for something that is obviously legally required for the role, like a license or certification to do the specific work, and someone applies without having it, I feel like they are wasting my time. But beyond that, I am generally looking for close fits–similar skills and experiences that make me confident the candidate could do the job.

      All but one of the bullet points is a very close fit, especially if that one thing is something where you have similar skills in another context (like you have not been a middle school soccer coach, but you played college basketball), or if it something that you could learn as you go (like particular system).

      1. GythaOgden*

        Agreed. I also applied for very much a stretch role last year and, while I didn’t get an interview, I got a lovely note from the talent acquisition team saying my CV intrigued them and asking whether we could meet to discuss what I really wanted and how they could help me develop into a new role that was closer to what I could do.

        It was an internal department, but it was that feeling of ‘nothing ventured, nothing gained’ that made me put the application in and the way recruitment acted even when I wouldn’t have got an interview was very proactive. So while an external post might not respond in quite the same way, getting on someone’s radar really helped.

    4. Blue Pen*

      Generally speaking, the most important parts of the job are going to be at the beginning of the description or list. If I’m hitting those, but I’m not quite hitting one or two near the bottom, I’m still applying. Practically speaking, if they’re asking for something I don’t have hard skills in but either a) I know wouldn’t be hard to learn or b) a transferrable skill I have would overlap with it, I’m still applying.

      If the job listing is a writeup, you can also use context clues—if a skill comes up quite a bit throughout the description you don’t have direct experience in, that’s probably not the job for you. For example, I know how to crop and resize images in Photoshop, but would I say I’m an expert in Photoshop? Not even close. Therefore, if the job is heavily based in Photoshop and necessitates more graphic design sensibilities, that’s not the job for me.

      The way my company writes up job listings distinguishing between “preferred qualifications” and “required,” which I think is the best way to do it. If something really is legitimately required and I don’t have experience in it, then I won’t send in an application.

    5. Boggle*

      Are you able to at least view some tutorials or do other training to confirm if it’s something you could pick up fairly quickly/easily? As an interviewer, I would want to see some kind of effort made to at least become familiar with a product or process our organization uses.

  98. Le le lemon*

    I applied for a stretch job in a very niche part of my field – of which I have all the niche criteria they wanted. job closed on Sunday, I got a call on Wednesday to interview virtually Thurs or Friday.

    There’s good reason for them to wanting to move fast, but I’ve also picked up that There’s been 100% turnover and 4/5 of the roles on this team are vacant – including who I’d report to. The job itself is something that would do great things for my career, but I don’t want to pick up a lemon of a job.

    Any advice on how to ask about this tactfully? Or things to consider?

    2. Cordelia*

      I’d go to the interview but be open about your concerns, what have you got to lose? If they can’t answer satisfactorily or are upset that you asked, then it’s not a job you wanted anyway. “Could I ask about the turnover in this role? I understand there are vacancies within this team, including who I would report to – could I get some of the context around this, and the plans for the team going forward?”
      There could be reasons why this is ok – maybe there was one terrible person who left and took all her terrible friends with her, and now the team is rebuilding and they have already hired a new and amazing manager who is starting soon (OK fan fiction, but I’m sure there are possibilities!) Go to the interview and find out

      1. Le le lemon*

        Thank you! I plan on asking. You’re right! It may be by chance they all left, or it could be a disaster. I’m hoping to thoroughly vet and make the right choice, as I’ll need to stay in this role for a few years.

  99. Pigeon*

    On behalf of a friend:

    ” I want to ask my boss to making a scent-free office policy, both for my sake personally and for our patients (I work at an optometry office, and I’ve had a few patients mention scent sensitivities). Thankfully most of our office is already scent free, though a few of my coworkers wear scents regularly and most of our cleaning supplies are scented. Main things stressing me out are a) I’ve worked here for 2 years and am just now bringing it up, and b) we’re inside LensCrafters and most of the actual scented products come from them, so I’m not sure how much change he can make. Anyone have encouragement/tips/etc? Or just encouragement that asking to make a medical office scent free isn’t unreasonable?”

  100. Former Retail Manager*

    Very late to this thread today, but still interested in any feedback from the commentariat. My question is about artificial intelligence (AI) and the ethics of its use by employees who are being paid to generate original work product based on their fact gathering, legal research & application of that legal research to their specific facts.

    Does anyone work in an industry in which you or your coworkers are using AI to generate work product that is being presented as created by you, either with the approval of your org or on the sly? This could include anything from e-mails to internal documentation to work product that is eventually given to a client.

    For example, if one needed to draft an e-mail to a technical specialist about a subject with which they are only vaguely familiar, they would ask AI a question or series of questions and selectively copy and paste AI’s response(s) into an e-mail and send it to the specialist as though they wrote it themselves to make it appear as though they understand the topic at a level that is greater than their actual understanding. The sender’s understanding of the topic is essential (not just helpful) because the specialist will be providing technical advice based on the information provided by the sender and the sender will have to apply that advice eventually.

    My very strong feeling is that passing off work that AI created, as your own, is unethical. I think a big part of my own issue with it is that a large part of my job is writing and my ability to write well factors into my performance evaluation. I find it unfair that I may be “competing” with colleagues that are using AI to complete their work for them.

    A colleague likened the use of AI to using one of the online legal research platforms (Bloomberg, Westlaw, etc.), from which my colleagues will routinely paraphrase and copy portions of text to add to their own original work. (Note: I am not a lawyer, but my work involves legal research & analysis.)

    I’m trying to see the issue from both sides. All comments are welcome.

    1. Not That Kind of Doctor*

      Of course it’s problematic to use ChatGPT et al to gather information you can’t fact check yourself, because it can use bad sources or make things up. And what’s limiting use in my field right now is that you can’t risk feeding it anything proprietary.

      Speaking as another professional writer, sadly, no, I don’t consider it unethical to use it to make your writing better (again, assuming you’re not giving it information that’s not supposed to be public). I haven’t tried it, because most of what I work on is confidential to some degree and we don’t (yet) have a closed system, but one of the things we do talk about using it for is “take this published paper and give me a 500-word summary at a 6th-grade reading level.” I imagine “cut 6 more words from this abstract” will be a popular ask once we do have a closed system (I’m curious whether it will be any good at that). Professional pride in the ability to put a sentence or a paragraph together is probably something we’ll have to get over.

    2. Ginger Cat Lady*

      There’s a big difference between a research platform and generative AI.
      Generative AI makes stuff up and gets it wrong fairly often, while research platforms have vetted resources. If you find a case precedent on Westlaw, you can be confident it’s real. That’s not true with generative AI.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Case in point — those AI meme videos on YouTube that generate a person from every country. They always seem to get Georgia, the US state, mixed up with Georgia, the country in the Caucasus.

        It’s like Wikipedia — you may be able to use it as a quick reference, but you really have to take the results and use them to dig deeper on your own. I use AI transcription for work meetings to help me write minutes after the fact, but even if it can be useful to have a written record of something I remember, there’s a lot of ‘noise’ in that signal and a human being still has to interpret the words to create something of actual value out of it. It also only really works when people are at individual laptops; if multiple people are around the same one, all their speech will be condensed into one block and necessitate me to differentiate between all the different voices. I’m actually going up to one meeting in person to be able to better support them and write more coherent minutes, simply because AI just can’t capture the dynamics within the room.

    3. Boggle*

      We have recently put security around AI tools which prevents anyone in the organization from running them on a company computer unless they have approval to do so. There is a form that has to be completed, which includes a statement they will not be using or generating any company-specific data from them. I think some of these tools can be useful for generating ideas around the composition of general business communication, but there is a gray area around using it for professional or technical purposes.

  101. not one of the winning gang*

    Just found out my coworkers chipped in and bought powerball tickets yesterday – only knew because the tickets popped up on coworkers email while we were discussing work. I was not asked to join – every other admin, 10 people, were in the draw, even one person who was out of the office. These are people who I work with closely. I cover their work when they’re running late, do favours if they need to leave early. I thought I was part of the team but apparently when it comes to the possibility of sharing life changing money I’m not. So I feel like that one kid who didn’t get an invite to a birthday party but the rest of the class did. I know I’m an adult but I’m feeling really hurt by being excluded.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      You could ask why you weren’t included. Could be any number of things. Maybe you belong to a religion they think (real or not) bans gambling, and they thought it better to not even ask. (I have been left out of happy hours at conferences because people assumed since I’m from Utah I don’t drink.) Maybe you once made a comment about how gambling is stupid, and someone remembered. Maybe they all thought someone else asked you.
      Being excluded is hard, no matter why. Don’t assume it was intentional.
      And if they don’t win, you could just joke that “I’m a good luck charm, next time ask me to chip in!”

    4. dapfloodle*

      I’ve kind of had a similar thing going on this year… my profession has a seasonal break where basically everyone is off work for at least awhile. Last year I was new at this branch of my workplace after the seasonal break. Some of the people in my work area basically ignored me and others were at least a bit cordial. The nicest one asked me to be in their birthday celebration rota-thing where I’d pay in a little money and then get cake provided for my birthday. This year things seemed to start off a little weird after coming back from the seasonal break (one example is that I had to explain to one co-worker that I didn’t “friend” them on social media because I don’t “friend” current co-workers there at all), and I wasn’t informed of the birthday group thing at all. The first co-worker birthday in my area is coming up and I guess I’m not partaking of the cake since I didn’t contribute!

    5. not one of the winning gang*

      Thank you for the kind words. I know I’ve got to let it go. It might not have been actively malicious ie let’s exclude her but still pretty darn hurtful that I’m apparently so beige no one remembered to include me.

      1. Bast*

        I understand how hurtful it can be. Not quite the same thing, but I remember one office where people went all out for birthdays. Cake, card, balloons, singing, the whole nine. This was a cubicle farm, so I was more than aware when someone had a birthday celebration and what it entailed, as was everyone else in the immediate vicinity. During the two years I was there, I never once received a cake, balloons, anything. My immediate supervisor offered a lukewarm “happy birthday” and that was about it. Perhaps it was childish, but yes, I was a bit sour, particularly when I would contribute with some decorations or be asked to sign a card, knowing that on my birthdays I would get nothing.

  102. Anon4thiss*

    I know I’m late this weekend but need to vent.

    I’m the head of a department and we travel quite a bit during certain parts of the year. Last year we traveled more and were told by my boss
    we aren’t traveling as much this year. Last year I traveled internationally and domestically probably 50% or more each month for 5-6 months. This year it will be about 25% for the same period. I have other people on my team who also travel but I travel the most mainly because I’m the head and because many people don’t want to travel that much.

    I had a new member of my team join last year who came with me on two major trips to train and then did their own international and domestic work trips. One of the international trips I originally asked for them to go to 2-3 countries for the week. Think Europe where you can get to countries easily. I left it to them to schedule since they are also senior (think they are Director and I am VP). They asked to extend the trip to see family in one country and I said it was fine as long as they paid for their expenses on those dates and that if the airline ticket was more they had to cover the difference. They also had to use PTO if staying during the work week. This is policy and they agreed.

    When we had our meeting they already planned and paid for a trip to only one country for more than a week for work and then an extra few days for family! This country also happens to be where they have family so I felt they basically had a long trip paid for by work to see family. There was no need to be in the country more than 1-2 days for work purposes. I had to explain (again) that this isn’t how we normally do it and that we don’t stay somewhere for a week unless it’s a conference or we have high level meetings multiple days in a row. I told them they would have to either come back early, take trains or flights to other countries, or take PTO as there was no need to spend a week there. We try to be good with our budget and do multiple things at once— this is known and told to everyone. Going and coming from a region multiple times in a short period is a waste of $.

    They ended up making the trip a bit shorter but still only staying in this one country but visiting multiple cities. They did use some PTO but we didn’t make it to the other countries and had to do virtual. Again, I’m their manager but they are senior enough that they have some autonomy of the choices. I gave them a bit of grace since this was their first international trip alone (we went together for training previously). When they came back we had another discussion about expectations and policies.

    One of the trips this fall is to Europe visiting 5 countries in a little more than a week. The Director keeps pushing to go instead of me and I don’t want to let them go! I want to go and I don’t think they have the ability to go to all countries in the short time planned as seen by what happened last year. They keep dropping hints in meetings. I have told them this year travel is cut and they will be going to only these x places this year.

    They already went to Europe over the summer for vacation and work and I wasn’t impressed by their work (they wanted to go away for 4 weeks this summer. HR and I agreed on 3 weeks vacation but one week they were told to work while abroad- no meetings but they were allowed to work from there).

    I was going but was recently in a meeting with my boss who told me this Director really wants to go and knows all languages at each country. I think my boss was trying to help because I am out but traveling is the only part of my job I like right now. I explained to my boss the reasoning and they told me they didn’t realize the director was already told I was going to these meetings.

    Now I’m annoyed that not only when I told them no that I was attending and why (high level meetings) that they went above me to my boss. I feel I was fair, even after last year I let them have input in where they wanted to travel but didn’t give them as much leeway as last year. Now I’m just inclined to say you must travel to ABC and have no choice.

    That being said I am looking to leave. I have applied for other roles and many are so senior that I will need 7+ reference including people who work for me. So it’s a fine line I don’t want to piss this person off in case they need to be a reference and they will most likely go for my role if I leave (I don’t think they are ready for it and would say this on my way out). But I also want to tell them what they did was not ok, disrespectful, and manipulative. How do I discuss it with them? If I wasn’t looking to leave I would be handling it much differently, but I know from some roles they even do back door references so even if I don’t put this person down they most likely will contact them to see how I was as a boss. Thoughts?

    1. GythaOgden*

      Yeah, that sounds like something that needs to be discussed in no uncertain terms. Even if they do have the linguistic skills, they are wasting company money and it can add up, and not doing their job properly while out there on business. They can use those linguistic skills virtually given how much they didn’t actually do the work they’d been supposed to do on the ground.

      That would spell out some form of disciplinary action for me as to use of company time and resources. Particularly if they’ve had the favour of long vacations to go and see family in the old country, the fact is this wouldn’t fly in our office in Europe either. (Our org mandates significant notice if you’re taking more than two weeks’ holiday at a time because we need that notice to plan around your absence in a job where even senior management are covering a lot of real time events. We can survive — we did it this summer with my boss taking extended leave for a medical issue — but we need to know so we can plan as much as possible for /foreseeable/ absences.)

      Your company is being very accommodating on the vacation front but as we’d say here ‘he’s taking the p*ss’ and needs to be brought back into line regarding work travel. Knowing senior colleagues in my org they work really hard and are expected to model professional behaviour, so this happening at director level makes it worse, not better, purely because this guy has responsibilities that his subordinates don’t and also needs to be an ambassador for the company.

      They’re not only setting him up for failure by not addressing it strictly, and they’re also showing to others who are probably policed a bit tighter that a director can get away with a lot of stuff that wastes money and doesn’t actually get enough of the important stuff done.

  103. Username not required*

    Do you absolutely need to list them as a reference, especially given how new they are to the job/working with you.

    If you can leave them off then definitely handle their behaviour as you would if you intended to stay. And when you get to reference stage with new jobs can you actually pre-empt using this director’s name by giving some background on their shenanigans. Because they are not operating in good faith – engineering an extended holiday out of a business trip and then going behind your back to lobby to be allowed to do it again, when you’ve already told them no. Hopefully now your boss knows the back story they will shut them down if they try and pull the same stunt again. Had something similar happen with coworker – they took their boyfriend with them on an extended business trip and expensed all their meals. They refused to see that as a problem which made their boss take a hard look at the rest of their work and they ended up being fired several months later. When people show you they have crappy ethics believe them.

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