boss is always scratching his chest, drinking non-alcoholic beer at work, and more

by Alison Green on November 6, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Manager is always scratching his chest inside his shirt

I am a recent transfer to my current office, 10 years with my company, and I have an issue with a manager. “Mark” wears his shirt with the top three buttons undone and he is rarely seen without his hand inside the shirt, scratching his chest. Am I wrong to be grossed out by this?

Mark is my direct manager, over my immediate supervisor. I have talked to my supervisor about my feelings and I was told that if I felt like this was a serious concern, I should take it up with HR.

What can I do? Short of reporting this to HR or trying to ignore him, which is hard to do since he will stand right in front of you and scratch his chest while he talks to you.

You’re not wrong to be grossed out; someone regularly having their hand inside their clothes is odd, and three unbuttoned buttons is more skin than you see in most offices.

That said, your supervisor is correct that unless you think it’s a big enough deal to take to HR (and I agree that it’s not), there’s nothing you can do about it. Mark’s scratching his chest; he’s not fondling his man parts or otherwise crossing glaring lines. The behavior is uncouth, but it’s not obscene.

At most, the next time he does it you could say, “Are you okay? You keep scratching yourself” — which could make him realize he’s doing something noticeable enough to be remarked on — but if that doesn’t work, then realistically you probably just need to accept the dude is a bit boorish (or very itchy).

2. Is it OK to drink non-alcoholic beer at work?

In your opinion, would it be okay for an employee to drink non-alcoholic beer in the office? Since it contains no alcohol, they wouldn’t be getting drunk and negatively impacting performance. But maybe it falls under the category of “not work appropriate.”

In most offices it would seem pretty weird. It’s an optics issue, not something strictly logical. Partly it’s that people won’t necessarily know it’s non-alcoholic at first glance; a lot of non-alcoholic beers look exactly like regular beer, and it’s not a great move to look like you’re swigging a beer at your desk, whether or not you actually are. Many people won’t stop to check and will just assume they’ve witnessed you drinking at work. But mainly it’s just going to come across as a weird choice in an office — like you’re trying too hard to be provocative, or not sensible enough to know that it will come across strangely, or just too invested in the choice in some way.

If you want to debate whether it should be okay to drink non-alcoholic beer at work, that’s a different question. But realistically, in most offices the optics are going to be bad.

3. My employee won’t take any time off for an injury

I work for a mid-sized city and was recently promoted to the division manager (leading eight staff overall). Our work group is tight and hardworking, and we are all super passionate about our work. As is often the case in the public sector, there is always more work that can be done.

One of my coworkers, Faye, has always worked long hours. She works late and nearly every weekend, and almost never takes time off. Even when she goes on vacation, she usually works part days throughout. She is extremely smart, dedicated, conscientious, and hardworking. Faye is now my direct report, but we worked for years as colleagues running parallel programs. I consider her a work friend, but she is older than me and we are figuring out what our new work relationship is.

When we were peers, how she took time off was none of my business. Now that I am her supervisor, I’m running into an issue because Faye is dealing with a really bad back injury. We are going into the third week of her working through extreme pain. She has been continuing to work through it from home, since she says it doesn’t make a difference if she’s working or not. She’s been working slightly fewer hours, but mostly just pushing through, working through pain and pain-induced insomnia.

I know it’s not appropriate to manage her time off, but I am starting to be concerned because I strongly believe in taking time away from work, unplugged, to heal and recuperate. I also don’t like the expectation it sets for the rest of the team. We get generous time off, with interchangeable vacation and sick time that rolls over into the next year. Faye has about 10 weeks of time saved up, in addition to access to paid medical leave through our state. Our workplace also has a donated leave program.

What is my role here? Is there anything I could/should do, beyond letting her know we can cover if she needs to take time off? I did encourage her to turn on her out-of-office message so she feels she can step away from email, which she did. And I’m covering any in-person duties (which are pretty minimal).

I agree with your philosophy about real time away, unplugged … but I also believe in letting adults make their own choices in that regard until and unless it’s affecting your team.

Reasons to tell Faye she needs to disconnect would be:
* if you’re seeing signs that other team members feel pressured to mirror her behavior
* if “working through pain and pain-induced insomnia” is affecting her work quality or output (hard to think it wouldn’t, but who knows)
* if you have reason to think she’s burning out
* if you need her at her well-rested best for something more important in the near future
* if her never being away means you have no chance to spot weak points or cross-training needs on your team (or fraud, for that matter — there’s a reason many financial jobs require people to fully disconnect for two weeks each year)
* if your sense is that she’s doing this because she truly feels there are no options to cover important work (in which case you’d need to work to find some)

I suspect at least a few of these are in play. But if they’re not, you can urge her to take real time off and emphasize that things will be covered in her absence, but otherwise should leave it to her to decide.

4. My manager won’t take any responsibility for us dropping a ball

Last week, my boss messaged me, “So, how’s project A going?” and I had no answer because I had done … nothing! This is a project that usually requires over a month of preparation and coordination between multiple teams at the company. However, I never knew it was my responsibility! I replied that I didn’t know it was my responsibility and I thought another team had it handled. He mentioned a meeting we had with the other team a few months ago where we had apparently agreed to handle the entire thing. But it didn’t come up in any documentation, meeting notes, my monthly goals, our yearly goals, and he hadn’t checked in until today, a week before the project was supposed to be completed!

In my work life (eight years) and under this manager (1.5 years), this has never happened to me before, and certainly not on an assignment that requires so much preparation. I have always gotten really good feedback on my ability to juggle multiple projects, prioritize, and communicate effectively, so this really rocked me. I feel like my manager dropped the ball on this, but he refuses to take any responsibility for it.

I did work like crazy to get everything figured out in less than one week so we are still on schedule, but it was one of the worst weeks I have ever had at work. We had a follow-up conversation where I mentioned the lack of communication or documentation, but he seemed completely nonplussed at the situation (and definitely not apologetic). I apologized for any miscommunication and really tried to give him the benefit of the doubt … but I can’t help feeling that I shouldered the entire situation and he has walked away oblivious to how big of a problem it was. How do I get across to him how much this affected me? And how do I prevent this kind of thing in the future?

If he’s normally a good manager who communicates well, one option is to leave it where it is now, since you’ve already had a follow-up conversation where you mentioned your concerns. I see why you’re thrown by his response to that (or lack of response, really) but if it’s not part of a pattern, you could just figure it’s been addressed, you see it differently for whatever reason, and it’s now settled enough — as long as it doesn’t keep happening.

But the other option is to go back and say something like, “I know we talked about it a bit, but I’m pretty rattled that I was unaware of such a major project for so long, and I hoped we could figure out where we miscommunicated so I can make sure it doesn’t happen again. If your sense is that I dropped the ball somewhere, can we dig into what happened so I’m better prepared next time? Or if your sense is that something else caused it, can we figure that out too?” There is a danger here that if your boss feels it’s already been discussed and handled, it could be annoying to reopen it, so you should factor in your sense of that, and also how open he’s historically been to acknowledging when he has messed up. If he’s not one to admit fault, there may be no point in revisiting it — not because he doesn’t necessarily need to hear it, but because in that case his previous non-response is probably as good as it’s going to get.

Also: he mentioned a meeting you were a few months ago where your team agreed to handle the project. Unless you have reason to doubt that’s correct, one takeaway might be that you need to be more proactive about following up with your boss on those types of commitments yourself, rather than assuming he’ll check in with you about them.

5. Submitting a reference from a job not listed on your resume (because you were fired from it)

My partner, Linda, was recently fired without cause after a month at a new job. She was still within her probationary period, the job was not a good fit, and the training was extremely lacking, which is why her performance suffered.

At this job, Linda worked closely with Tracy. Tracy was in a tenured position but not in Linda’s chain of command. Tracy was very pleased with Linda’s performance and was definitely one of her cheerleaders during her time there. Now that Linda is back in job-search mode, Tracy reached out and offered to be a reference.

However, Linda was only at this job for a month and, due to the nature of her departure, she is not including this position on her resume. Is it appropriate for her to list Tracy as a reference? If so, how would she note that Tracy is a reference from a job not listed, and with such a short length of employment? I’m concerned that a hiring manager will see yellow flags at best if Linda includes Tracy as a reference. Linda has other options for references, but they are from a position that ended in June.

I wouldn’t use Tracy as a reference, unfortunately. It’s more likely to cause concerns than it is to strengthen her candidacy (because of the firing, but also because one month of working with someone generally isn’t enough to produce sufficiently strong and nuanced feedback to outweigh the firing, or even to count for all that much on its own).

The exception would be if Tracy is personally connected to someone Linda is applying with; in that case, it could change that calculus (in part because Tracy would be able to talk more candidly about what happened and her assessment of Linda would carry additional weight).

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  1. earlthesachem*

    Why do I get the feeling the LW in #2 should probably get himself to an AA meeting, pronto?

    Years ago I worked for an internet company that provided free beer on Fridays, after 4:00PM. It was not unheard of to crack one open with the owner of the company, but it was for a couple hours at the end of the work week, and there was an understanding that you stopped at one or two. I almost miss the early 2000s dot-com days.

    1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Seems like they’d prefer beer with alcohol in it, in your scenario.

      I don’t care for sweet beverages, so once it’s too late in the day for caffeine (I drink black coffee in the morning), my choices tend to be water, milk, and beer. The optics of my job mean that I’m definitely not going to drink even 0% beer at work, but I much prefer the flavor profile of beer to soda and would probably choose NA beer over milk for a little afternoon treat sometimes if not for the optics involved. (In reality, once I’m done with coffee for the day I switch to water or the occasional glass of milk, because I’m in a field where any perception that I’m drinking on the job would be a big issue.)

      1. Testing*

        There’s always tea-type drinks like rooibos that have no caffeine. But yeah, I drink those in the winter and but prefer something cold in the summer.

        2. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

          I find it hard to sleep after evening rooibos, despite there being no caffeine (and I was a food scientist when I figured this out, so have documentation somewhere about my experiments!) and after having tried a number of different brands. Just a flag for others with delicate sleep that there are other compounds that can energize or make it hard to sleep!

        3. Jack Russell Terrier*

          I make several rooibos ‘lattes’ a day – simply rooibos with milk I froth, lovely.

      2. Lady Lessa*

        While it isn’t too close to beer in flavor, herbal teas that I like and have a mild bite are Egyptian licorice and Egyptian licorice with mint. Not sure about the caffeine in them, probably little to none. (I make mine cold, by a tea bag in a water bottle and store it cold.

      3. desdemona*

        Have you tried kombucha?
        I wonder if LW2 would enjoy kombucha, as well – I’m personally not a fan, but it definitely has different connotations than a NA beer would, and at least in my city is very office-appropriate.

      4. Not a Girl Boss*

        This debate came up recently in my home because of Hoplark. Hoplark isn’t even an NA beer, its straight up not-beer. But it is a soda water and/or tea brewed with hops, and the can is very beer-like, and the marketing is about how its not-beer. Its delicious and really scratches the not-sweet beverage itch.

        We ultimately decided it could not be drunk at work, after I recalled an incident a few years back, where I was on a kick of an unusual and apparently beer-like-decorated seltzer. I got lots of good natured ribbing about “cracking a cold one” in meetings, and one very concerned double take from a manager. At least in that case, I had a long good reputation of sound decision making at work and was able to emphatically point out that it was just orange flavored seltzer.

        1. Zephy*

          I bought a case of Liquid Death when they started coming out with flavors, and my boss saw me drinking out of the can and asked if I thought it was Miller Time already (the flavor I had came in gold tallboy cans). Liquid Death is literally just canned water, it comes in still/sparkling and they’ve even got a few flavors now, but the whole point is that the can looks like an Adult Beverage on first glance. It’s just generally a good idea to avoid looking like you might be having a capital-D Drink at work, I think.

        2. Whanto*

          There are lots of “hop waters” on the market these days, that are like what you describe, where it’s a hoppy flavored NA seltzer and I do drink those at work sometimes and it’s never been an issue. Not as full flavored as a beer but I do prefer them to NA beers which always taste a little off to me.

      5. Not Always Right*

        Non alcohol beer does contain .5% alchohol. I am not a drinker, so I have no idea if this would be enough to get a buzz on if someone drank several of these today. I guess this really isn’t relevant, but I thought I would put in my 2 cents worth

        1. Testing*

          That’s not true. Depending on the technology used it “may” contain “up to” 0.5% alcohol, but other types contain absolutely 0.0%. The distinction makes a big difference for example for many Muslims.

          Meanwhile, a lot of other stuff including bananas contain alcohol (it’s true, look it up), and I don’t see anyone banning bananas from offices or wondering if their kid gets a buzz from eating a banana…

      6. Reluctant Mezzo*

        Surely a cleaned-out apple juice container would show some discretion? The colors are similar in many respects.

    2. Testing*

      You’re projecting pretty wildly there.

      I, and many others, drink non-alcoholic beer all the time. We always have some in the fridge at home (where we rarely have regular beer). It’s a great, non-sweet and non-sugary refreshing drink that has more taste than water does. I’m not trying to lose weight, but I remember reading about a study where people lost weight when drinking non-alcoholic beer every day (I guess since it fills you up, again in a way water doesn’t). I like the taste of some brands a lot more than I like the taste of regular beer.

      It’s weirdly puritanical to think that there is somehow something suspect or bad about this particular refreshment. While I agree that swigging cans at work is a bit weird (only because it may look similar to beer with alcohol—lots of people drink soda or energy drinks out of cans at work), this is the perfect use for those coffee thermos mugs with lids!

        1. Ess Ess*

          If you’re in the office, I think that would be worse, because you’d have beer breath and nothing to show it’s non-alcoholic.

        2. Anonym*

          I wonder about the smell, though, when considering the optics. I can smell a beer from a several feet away (not as far as coffee, but it definitely has a stronger throw than juice or soda for whatever reason). I do have a sensitive nose, but I would worry that even in a thermos or whatever, people would still smell it and you’re back to square one in terms of perception.

      2. Archi-detect*

        whereas I have never heard of anyone drinking non-alcoholic beer outside of recovery of some kind. Personally I don’t like the taste of beer enough to want to drink it outside of wanting the alcohol

        1. Batman*

          Can’t speak for others, but I find the taste of beer delicious and refreshing, similar to tonic. Obviously I don’t want to get drunk all the time so non alcoholic beer is a nice treat on a hot day.

          Only slightly related, but I’ve actually been pulled up at work before for drinking kombucha, as the glass bottle was deemed suspicious!

          1. Lenora Rose*

            Even regular kombucha is technically a tiny bit alcoholic (Not enough to get anyone drunk – but enough it needs to be avoided by those with an alcohol sensitivity) but it should be easy to tell the soft-drink equivalent from the “hard”. I haven’t had issues drinking a local soft brand at work.

        2. amoeba*

          Erm, OK, that’s honestly a pretty weird take. Non-alcoholic beer is super popular at the moment (at least where I am in Europe, but I got the impression that it’s similar in the US?) – both among people who also sometimes drink alcohol but don’t feel like it that particular day and among people who don’t, for health or fitness reasons. Probably also among some recovering alcoholics, no idea, as I don’t personally know any – but that alone certainly wouldn’t explain the huge and growing market for it!

          A lot of people do like the taste, it’s isotonic and somewhat healthy (alcohol-free beer is actually often present at sports events here, as in sponsoring the marathon and giving a can to the finishers!), it has less sugar than getting a coke… honestly, I think it’s a great choice of non-alcoholic drink and I can’t think of any other non-alcoholic refreshments that would fulfil all the same criteria. (Maybe kombucha or something?)

          1. N C Kiddle*

            I started drinking alcohol free beer (in bars, not at work) because it was a hot day and my other cold drink options were either caffeinated or sweeter than I liked. And I enjoyed drinking it enough to stick with it for a couple of years now, although certain friends tease me because they also don’t see the point of beer without drunkenness.

          2. Emmy Noether*

            I know a lot of people who find it refreshing and drink both kinds, depending on occasion. It’s kind of a thing as the adult drink at children’s birthday parties and picnics in our circles.

            I personally don’t like beer, but I’ve been known to drink nonalcoholic cider, wine or martini. Discovered when I was pregnant and I like having something with an interesting and not-too-sweet flavour profile and don’t always want alcohol.

            At work it’s water, tea or coffee for me, though. Those other drinks are for relaxing (which is the other optics problem with nonalcoholic beer. It’s a relaxy kind of drink).

              1. bamcheeks*

                It’s a Europe/US difference– cider/cidre/Apfelwein/etc is pretty much always an alcoholic drink with 3-5% alcohol, although home- and farm-brewed ciders in northern France and southern English can be like 6-8%! Most of us do double-take the first time we see references to cider in American English in what are clearly non-booze contexts.

                1. Marcela*

                  I’m in the US, and alcoholic cider was popular in some of the bars near my college. I don’t like beer, but found cider slightly better.

                  If someone just said “cider”, I would think of non-alcoholic darker apple juice though.

                2. amoeba*

                  @Marcela be careful when you’re in the UK or France then, or you’d be in for a surprise!
                  The non-alcoholic kind literally doesn’t exist here and most of us aren’t even aware it’s a thing in the US (guess it’s not featured enough in Hollywood films?)

                3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  It’s slowly coming back in the States.

                  Before Prohibition, the region around Cincinnati, Ohio, was the Napa Valley of American cidry. Many if not most of the cidre apple orchards throughout the Midwest and New England were torn up or torched in a zeal of Temperance during Prohibition. Orchards take a long time to regrow, especially when the seeds on hand were discarded and have to be sourced again.

                  If you’re in America and curious, check your local grocer or liquor store in the craft beer section. There’s often an Angry Orchard, Red’s, Strongbow, etc, waiting to be tried. Some are hopped like beer, others dry like old world wines, others still sweet like apple juice mixed with fine vodka. You might even find a cyser that’s a cidre take on honey mead (the making of which features prominently on my bucket list). Cidre brandy is known in the states as Applejack (Jacking itself being American slang for concentration by sequential freezings, though most are usually distilled like brandies and whiskeys these days).

                  On topic, I tried hard to recast this question in terms of cidres as I have no taste for beer, and it ultimately comes back to the scent (for me). Sweet/American cidre just doesn’t trigger the alcohol vibes the way near-beer does.

              2. UKDancer*

                Cider in the UK is always alcoholic unless it says otherwise on the bottle (and a few non alcoholic ciders exist). I was surprised that in the US its the other way around.

                1. Pucci*

                  In the US, “cider” means fresh, unfiltered juice from pressed apples, “apple juice” mean filtered juice from apples, and “hard cider” means alcoholic apple juice

              3. Seeking Second Childhood*

                For an easily located version in the US ask for Angry Orchard.

                The non-commercal version is to let fresh cider ferment — just do go read safety instructions so you don’t get exploding jugs or get sick from drinking active cultures. (internal fermentation is as unpleasant as it sounds.)

              4. Clisby*

                Sure – I think here in the US it’s often called hard cider. However, I’d check any cider for alcohol – I wouldn’t just assume it’s non-alcoholic.

              5. Emmy Noether*

                And I thought cider was always fermented!

                To be clear, the drink I was referencing as “non alcoholic cider” is fermented applejuice with the alcohol removed. So it’s less sweet and more tangy than simply unfiltered applejuice (which is also delicious, especially when fresh, but I don’t often want something that sweet).

                1. Leaving academia*

                  What the US calls (nonalcoholic) cider is often called apple juice in Europe. In the US, apple juice is filtered, pasteurized, and sometimes sweetened. (Nonalcoholic) cider is the pressed apple juice that contains some bits of apple and is typically not pasteurized. Cider can be heated with mulling spices for a great, cozy drink. I’m surprised people haven’t heard of alcoholic (hard) cider, though. It seems to be pretty widespread.

              7. Cider drinker*

                Yep. In the US it’s usually called hard cider (to differentiate it from the non-alcoholic kind). It’s decently popular in the northeast — depending on the area and the bar, it’s not uncommon to have a cider available. Angry Orchard is probably the most broadly available brand (around 3% abv, most craft ciders are between 5-8% abv).

              10. Cinnamon Stick*

                If you’re in the US, there are several bottled brands. Woodchuck and Scrumpy’s are both pretty popular. Hard cider, vs soft cider which has no booze.

                As for me, I mull soft cider and add a generous shot of brandy or vodka.

              11. Lenora Rose*

                I used to get terribly confused – in fiction every reference I ran into to cider seemed to imply a relatively lightly alcoholic drink on the same level as beer, just made with apples. But I was drinking cider (nonalcoholic dark non-transparent apple juice with a bit of pulp) even as a kid.

              13. Good Lord Ratty*

                Very popular in Canada! Strongbow is one of the most popular and widely available; you’d be hard pressed to find a bar that doesn’t have it.

          3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            Growing up, my family were all teetotalers, so non-alcoholic beers were very much the norm in my household. I don’t like the taste of beer at all, but I usually have a few bottles of non-alcoholic beer around my house for cooking purposes. It’s much easier to keep on hand than standard beer since I can get it at the grocery store.

          4. Strive to Excel*

            Clearly y’all are getting better NA beer than I am, because the last time I had an NA beer it tasted like the saddest light beer ever without even the balancing kick from the alcohol (I mean that as a flavor kick, not an intoxicant kick).

            1. UKDancer*

              I gather some of them taste quite good now (so my beer drinking friends say). It’s a growing market and companies are spending more time and effort making them taste good.

            2. umami*

              There are some really good ones! I like the whole line of Athletic Brewing, and Guinness has a good one There’s also one by Dos XX that’s very refreshing (a lime and salt beer).

            1. Filofaxes*

              This is very much a side rant but why does every celebrity/actor need to have their own line of booze nowadays? And then after that launches, they’re like “here come the haircare/skincare/makeup products too!”

              Yeah, I get that they need to diversify their holdings because Hollywood is fickle and Ryan Reynolds started this trend with his gross AF gin (don’t @ me, it is gross, I said it, and I meant it) so now every other celebrity has to ride it into the ground. It’s just a very, very worn out trend now. No one cares that you have a new line of IPAs, Chappell Roan, which likely taste like sad water*

              *I don’t know if she does or not.

              1. Dread Pirate Roberts*

                If you want to blame a celebrity for starting the trend, George Clooney’s tequila predates Ryan Reynolds’ gross gin (I’ll take your word for it since all gin is gross to me.) When Clooney and partner sold for a billion dollars, that started a trend for pretty obvious reasons. And who knows, maybe Tom Holland’s foray into non-alcoholic beer will help make it more socially acceptable for people like the letter writer!

          7. TwoGoodPuppies*

            Yeah, from several Reddit forums I’m in, I’ve learned that the vast majority of recovering alcoholics actually actively avoid N/A beer, as it can absolutely trigger them to want the “real thing.”

        3. UKDancer*

          My father doesn’t drink alcohol for medical reasons as it affects his medications. He quite often has an alcohol free beer with Sunday lunch, either a Guinness or a German lager. He likes it as it gives him beer flavour but not effect on his medication.

          Also a number of my colleagues have it if we go for a drink as some of them have to drive. Increasingly popular in the UK I think.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            Worth noting that in the UK (I don’t know about the USA) “non-alcoholic” and “zero alcohol” products can in fact contain alcohol – typically it’s trace but it can be 0.5% which would be a problem for someone who needs to avoid alcohol entirely, eg for medical reasons.

        4. londonedit*

          What? There’s a whole thing where people in the hospitality industry are freaking out because Gen Z apparently don’t drink booze anymore. Might be different in the US but pretty much every company that makes beer/other booze here in the UK has a non-alcoholic option and the market seems to be booming. We still love a drink in this country but people are becoming more health-conscious, younger people aren’t drinking as much, and alcohol is becoming incredibly expensive, so plenty of people are looking for non-alcoholic options.

          Just as not everyone who enjoys a few glasses of wine is an alcoholic, not everyone who drinks non-alcoholic beer is an alcoholic in recovery. In fact that’s the last thing I’d have thought of! It’s just another option for people who don’t want to drink, whether that’s at all or just for that particular occasion. You can get 0% Guinness, tons of 0% beers, even non-alcoholic or 0.5% versions of Gordon’s gin etc. I don’t like beer, so I don’t drink them, but loads of my running friends will if they’re going to the pub or to a party the night before a long run or a race.

          That said, no, I wouldn’t drink it at work, because the whole design of most of the non-alcoholic options is made to look like their alcoholic counterparts (I guess to help people ‘blend in’ if everyone else is having a drink) so I think there’s too much risk that someone will walk past your desk and assume you’ve cracked open a can of lager.

          1. Flor*

            Can’t speak for the US, but it’s the same in Canada. Gen Z are drinking less, and even amongst my millennial peers I know a lot of people who are cutting back; we’re not teetotal, but we’re also not drinking every weekend or every meal out. Personally, I can’t stand any pop/fizzy drinks unless they’re alcoholic, so if I’m out for drinks, I’m having wine or beer, and if I’m driving or just don’t fancy a drink, that means non-alcoholic wine or beer.

            1. Good Lord Ratty*

              Also in Canada – I’ve noticed non-alcoholic liquor is more widely available these days too. “Craft alcohol free liquors” like those made by Seedlip, for example. I do drink alcohol occasionally, but I also have a bottle of Seedlip’s botanical liquor (close to gin) in the fridge. It’s pretty good!

        5. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Is it really possible that every time someone’s been drinking NA beer around you, you specifically knew they were in recovery? I think you may be using your own assumptions to confirm your own assumptions. (My husband drinks NA beer once in a while because he does not like drinking but he likes the taste of beer.

        6. skadhu*

          I think that’s a wide assumption based on not liking beer yourself! Not everyone drinks to excess—most people I know don’t—and they don’t change their drinking habits because they are in recovery. I myself (and many of my friends) now drink non-alcoholic beer because as we age there are a variety of health issues that are exacerbated by drinking even small amounts of alcohol. (We won’t get into all the other foods I can no longer eat because aging systems get finicky, but damn.) I personally prefer a real beer, but I don’t like the digestive issues that result when I drink even one bottle because my innards have gotten stupidly sensitive. But I much prefer the taste to sweeter drinks, and the quality of fake beers has improved immensely over recent years, so if you do like the taste it’s much more attractive as an option for beer drinkers.

        7. Yorick*

          The sober people I know don’t drink NA beer, I think they don’t want to have anything that reminds them of alcohol

          1. Cinnamon Stick*

            It varies. I have a friend who does drink NA beer as well as cocktails made by liquor companies. There’s no booze in the house that they used to drink, though, just what their spouse does.

        8. A Simple Narwhal*

          Agree with what others have said, NA beer is absolutely not limited to people in recovery. I personally dislike the taste of beer so I’m not the target audience, but my husband loves it, it’s a nice way to get to enjoy/experience the flavor of something without the other stuff that comes with drinking beer.

          In a similar vein I have been really enjoying the increasing availability of other non-alcoholic beverages. First when I was pregnant and really wanted the flavor/experience of a refreshing cold margarita on a hot summer day, and then when I was nursing, and now that my tolerance is so low that one strong-ish cocktail can knock me flat, I really like having a wide variety of NA beverages and mocktails to enjoy whenever I want.

          1. Pizza Rat*

            I have a lot of friends who don’t drink for various reasons, so we go to places that will have at least a few mocktails on the menu. There are shops now that specialize in fancy NA drinks. It’s where I get my sorrel

        9. Michelle Smith*

          Raising my hand as another person you can add to your list. I like the taste of beer quite a bit, but drinking alcoholic beer really hurts my stomach the next day. So I often just drink beer without alcohol for the flavor.

        10. Ess Ess*

          I had family members drink it because alcoholic beverages were against their religion. Recovery is not the only reason to drink it. There’s also people on medications that can’t drink alcohol.

        11. umami*

          That’s … weird? Personally, I do like the taste of beer, and I really enjoy non-alcoholic beer as a refreshing drink when I don’t want alcohol (and I don’t like soda). I’m not sure why it’s considered something only people with a drinking problem would drink.

        12. RussianInTexas*

          That’s a take. I like the taste of many types of beer (not all). I do not have issues with alcohol.
          Now, I would not drink non alcoholic beer, because I don’t see the point, for myself, plus I can’t do carbonated beverages much, but just because you don’t like the taste of beer, does not mean others are the same.

        13. MassMatt*

          Same here, this question came up in a prior letter and I was amazed that there were so many people that seemed to like non-alcoholic beer’s taste. To each, their own.

          I still think the optics (and smell–the non-alcoholic variety is not distinguishable from the alcoholic variety, and people generally can’t smell their own breath very well) are still poor. I would save it for relaxing at home.

        14. Retired Accountant*

          There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

        15. Jack Russell Terrier*

          I’m another who likes the taste of beer and doesn’t like the effect of alcohol … .

          In the past few years non-alcoholic beer have become really good. I like Athletic brand.

        16. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          My dad, who was a horrible prankster in his youth, would drink non-alcoholic beer out of a brown paper bag within sight of his high school. Much to the consternation of the Boys’ Vice-Principal. So it was definitely for the optics.

      3. amoeba*

        Yeah, I thought so as well – just make sure there’s no noticeable smell, because it does still smell like beer and if it’s then out of a thermos, that probably looks even worse than a can that does at least have printed “non-alcoholic” on it somewhere…

        Was also wondering whether there are any brands that are more clearly recognisable as non-alcoholic? Maybe even in a different kind of container or at least with, like, a *huge” 0.0 on it somewhere?

    3. Ellis Bell*

      My mind went to alcoholism too, but not because I think the OP is alcoholic. My concern would be that anyone in recovery who happens to look around will see what appears to be drinking going on. Even if they realise the beer is not alcoholic, on some level it will feel like an environment with alcohol. It also makes it easier to drink alcohol surreptitiously once it becomes established that “beer” is okay in the office and people are trusted on the contents in spite of appearances.

      2. Margaret Cavendish*

        Hard disagree on this one! OP isn’t responsible for anyone else’s behaviour, and certainly not responsible for anyone else’s recovery from alcoholism. If someone sees OP drinking [whatever] and concludes that drinking is okay in the office, that’s 100% on them, not OP.

        I agree with the general point that optics are a problem, and there are lots of reasons that OP might not want people to think they’re drinking beer in the office. But we can’t say that OP (appearing to) drink in the office might cause someone else to actually drink. Not only is that not true, but it’s not fair to OP, and it goes against literally every principle of addiction treatment. The most important thing, that people hear over and over and over again, is that they are the only person who is responsible for their behaviour. And until they internalize that, really understand it with their whole being, they’re never going to recover from the addiction.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          Oh, absolutely agree that it would never be an individual’s responsibility, more of a widespread concern about creating an environment that responsible addicts would typically opt out of. Not really in OP’s remit, I agree.

    4. Link*

      I agree. If one needs to drink beer of any kind at work, there’s possibly a problem. And most “non-alcoholic” beer has a low amount of alcohol. It’s definitely not a beverage to be sipping on at work.

          1. T.N.H*

            A lot of juice has trace amounts of alcohol. However, there is yeast essentially everywhere all the time. If you leave grape juice (or almost any juice) out in an open container, it will start to ferment as the natural sugars turn to alcohol. Random testing has found some juices to have more than .5%, which is what most dealcoholized wine and beer contain.

          3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

            Because cold slows the reproduction of yeasts, which produce alcohol. Yeast is naturally occurring on fruits, so if you juice ripe fruit and don’t immediately drink it or freeze it, it will begin to ferment. Typically “ripe” means it’s already started to ferment at a low level, because yeast like sugar just as much as humans do.

      2. amoeba*

        At least the ones becoming more and more popular here in Europe are mostly 0.0% (made in a different way as opposed to the < 0.5% ones that are made by removing the alcohol from actual alcoholic beer). Those are still around, but I'd say it's at least 50/50, probably actually more in favour of the 0.0 ones.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Oh weird, normally links get sent through moderation first, was trying to flag some spam.

    8. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I don’t get any indication that the OP has a problem with alcohol. Some people like the taste of beer and would prefer it over soda or juice. Just because someone would like to drink non-alcoholic beer doesn’t mean that they have a problem.

  2. Dahlia*

    I had a really bad back injury a few years ago (I broke my spine) and I was on too much morphine to work in any capacity, but had I not been, I would have been fine to work and it would have probably been nice, honestly.

    I spent a lot of time very isolated (February 2020 is a bad time to have a major injury) and with that little to do, you start to lose it. Doing nothing but being in pain messes with your mental health severely.

    1. Tg*

      I know someone who dealt with a similar injury and she says she has a month she doesn’t remember from morphine (I think she was on morphine for a week).

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        I was on morphine for several years and had no problems but have no memory of any time they’ve ever given me propafol. According to my husband I was at one point going to charge my laptop batteries by sticking the whole thing in the kettle.

        (For non-UK readers I wish to reassure you that a laptop will not in fact fit into a kettle).

    2. learnedthehardway*

      My husband ruptured a disc at work and – despite being approved to be on disability leave – is still working and going into the office. (He’s not drawing benefits for it, just has approval to be off work.)

      Anyway, his attitude is the same – he can be at home in pain or at work in pain. It’s all the same. He won’t take his painkillers (doesn’t like how they make him feel), so at least he is safe to drive. He says the car seat is the most comfortable one for him anyway, and it has a built-in heating pad, so it actually does him some good to commute. Also, he has to be up and down at work – which is better for him than sitting in his armchair for hours in front of the TV. He’s fully productive at work and his role is kind of critical to the company functioning, so he has a sense of purpose – which is important for mental health when you’re dealing with chronic pain or health issues.

      So, from that perspective, I would let employees handle their health concerns the way that works best for them. If work performance is suffering, then the manager obviously has to step in, but let the employee find ways to manage their work and health whenever possible, and consider that while an employee may need supports, they should be involved in what those would be (eg. partial disability or going down to part time, etc).

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        It’s true, plus back injuries take a long time to heal. I cannot imagine having no work to distract me from the pain during the months-long rehab period from my disc herniation.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          fully agree, I’m not even fully healed so I can’t do many of my hobbies or plenty of chores but I certainly can work at my desk

    3. Georgina Sands*

      Yeah, honestly, sometimes when I’ve been in a lot of pain the only way to deal with it, even medicated, is to focus on something else, and work can be an excellent choice. Video games or other attention-grabbing things aren’t really super healthy to focus on for 40 hours a week haha. As long as the quality of the work is fine, I’m not sure why people are judging how other people choose to try and cope with their pain

    4. Jake Purralta*

      I have a perm back injury that flares up and apart from being drugged up I would struggle to work for the first 6 weeks as I wouldn’t be able to be laid or sat in a position where I could use my laptop.

    5. LaminarFlow*

      Totally agree. I had big surgery in 2021, and I worked through it as soon as the narcotics wore off, and my head was clear. I typically work through stuff bc I get bored.

      This also affords me the opportunity to take a solid month off, and be completely disconnected, once per year. It’s worth it to me to push through any sickness (as long as I’m not on drugs that make me loopy) to have my month of vacation.

  3. WorkingInPain*

    While Faye clearly doesn’t take time off generally so this may not apply, let me give you an alternate perspective from someone with serious back issues who’s always in pain:

    Working helps, as long as I can do it from home with minimal need to move. 99% of the time work distracts me from the pain and I don’t feel it as much. Conversely, if I’m not working I’m sitting there in extreme pain without something engaging my brain to distract it. Note that I’m still in pain while working and it might be noticeable to coworkers at times, it’s just pushed to the back of my brain because my brain is busy with other stuff.

    In those rare cases when I try to start working and it doesn’t help and I can’t be productive I stop and take a sick day.

    So I wouldn’t automatically assume taking time off will help Faye deal with her back. That said, I don’t know if any of this applies to Faye as everyone is different.

    1. Gustavo*

      This is absolutely me too. I have multiple chronic medical conditions, all of which are painful. I also currently am dealing with a spinal issue myself that has me in pain all the time. My company has accommodated appts, better chairs, standing desk converter, and anything else I need and would also absolutely approved any requests I have for time off if I wanted them-but I don’t want the time off. Sitting around stewing about hurting does me no good but being productive and living my life does. I still go to the gym, it hurts but I’m not just going to give up and rot away at home. I’m in my 30s and many of my conditions are permanent, I would be so upset if my boss was trying to guilt me into or force time off because he felt I should due to pain.

      I do agree LW needs to make sure she creates a culture that would support the time off if employees need it, as well as provide any physical accommodations needed to alleviate some of the pain. Past that, the employees choices are hers alone.

    2. SarahKay*

      This was me too. A few years back I had a truly bad attack of sciatica; I literally couldn’t reach my feet to put my socks on. However, unlike being ill, my brain was working just fine.
      Since I couldn’t sit in a chair for more than about 20 minutes at a time I spend most of my time lying flat, either on my front or my back. There were lots of things I couldn’t do, but I could attend calls, and catch up on a whole lot of on-line training, which gave me something to do during the day to distract myself from the endless ache-ache-oh,-F!- that-hurt-ache-ache that was the rest of my day.
      (Mind you, I also took breaks and watched the first five seasons of Buffy on DVD during those weeks).

    3. 1-800-BrownCow*

      I don’t have personal experience but one of my colleagues was going through chemo several years ago and would come to work as much as he could because it helped keep him distracted. Honestly, I felt bad because he looked horrible, but I know it helped him feel normal and not focus on his sickness and the negativity that goes with battling cancer. I’m not sure personally I could do it, but I can understand why some people would rather work than be home stuck with their thoughts.

    4. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

      A different POV from another chronic pain sufferer: working can be a great distraction from pain, but computer work is 100% my biggest trigger for my spinal (neck), rib, and hip subluxations (aka partial dislocations aka big pain) and other related back pains. Working as much as Faye works would be bad physically for me even just from the time it takes away from being in other positions.

      Also may not apply to Faye or many others, but wanted to share this alternate experience.

  4. Jenesis*

    I am less concerned about the way that Faye is powering through this specific incident (as earlier comments said, sometimes “resting” is not actually relaxing or recuperating) and more about the fact that she has 10(!!) weeks of leave saved up and apparently no plans to actually use it.

    Only LW#3 can tell us if this is a work culture problem or a Faye-specific problem, but their comment “I also don’t like the expectation it sets for the rest of the team.” suggests that the rest of the office isn’t as much of a workaholic as Faye. LW#3, would it be possible to set some team-wide expectations to mitigate this, such as “Employees should not be responding to work emails while on vacation” or “Employees should not be working [more than X hours] every weekend”?

    1. amoeba*

      Yup, this. I’d address the larger issue (also, why is she working nights and weekends? That’s just as bad in my world as not taking leave!)

      1. ferrina*

        One of my close family members is an extreme workaholic. She works because that is her primary identity. It has been for decades. She wants to work until the work is done, and she works in a human services role where the work is never done.

        Is it a problem? Absolutely, but it’s not something her workplace can fix (it’s not a workplace culture norm; she’s an isolated outlier in her workplace). Her workaholic tendency is one of the maladaptive traits she has from a traumatic childhood. She definitely needs therapy, but unless and until she decides to get that, any outside intervention won’t be effective. We’ve tried- she just ends up workaholicking in some other way. You can’t help someone that doesn’t want to change.

        *to be clear, this isn’t a generalization of all workaholics. This is just this one particular person that I know really well.

      2. Jenesis*

        I can understand working nights/weekends sometimes if it’s an industry with very finicky deadlines*, or if they serve a client base that needs the extra flexibility of being able to access services outside of normal working hours – but even then it shouldn’t be the same person working OT all the time, unless that person gets paid extra for OT and volunteered specifically because they value the money more than their free time.

        *Personal story: my husband is an engineer, and his work assignments can be very exacting. E.g. “Put the sample into the test chamber, then take it out after exactly 48 hours.” If the sample comes in on a Thursday morning either someone has to come in on a weekend or someone has to explain to the client why the data won’t be ready until next Wednesday. Sometimes a Saturday morning in the office is the path of least resistance. Fortunately, he likes his boss, and the company offers generous bonuses and flexible hours to make up for it.

        1. Grimalkin*

          Relatedly, working at night and/or on weekends isn’t necessarily an issue if it’s just a more drastic example of flex hours, whether because the employee’s a night owl by nature (guilty) or has other things going on that makes that a good time to work (also guilty at times, thanks chronic health problems).
          It doesn’t sound like that’s what’s going on in the OP–it sounds like Faye’s working nights and weekends ON TOP of regular working hours, not INSTEAD of them–but it’s worth flagging for the commentariat at large, I figure.

    2. Bear Expert*

      I have managed some deep workaholics in my time, and done so by just getting absolutely blunt about it.

      “I need you to spend at least 20 working days a year not at work. I do not care what you do with it, but I am tracking this as a minimum.” Having a plan to take appropriate time off was a work assignment with check ins and due dates and success criteria. If they sent emails or were on work communications during a day off, I gave it back and they had to try again.

    3. Coffee Snob/Knob*

      While not related directly related to an injury, I unfortunately am in a similar situation where I’ve given months of heads up to my boss that I had a 1.5 week holiday coming up, and then had my boss give me a weeks worth of work to complete 6 hours before I fly. I ended up working roughly 2-3 hours per day on my vacation, which ended up making me fall sick on vacay.

      I have no coverage. My boss cannot do my job, and my only subordinate doesn’t have the training to cover me (not for the lack of training, or attempts). And my boss refuses to let me hire, despite me pulling 60-80 hour weeks at some times. Yet he tells us, “taking vacations are important, you should use your leave.” He literally has no boundaries; it’s a company wide issue at this point.

      It sucks.

      1. Boof*

        What would happen if you just point blank refused to do all this extra? Like say “boss, this is a week’s worth of work and I have 4 hours; I will only do X and the rest won’t happen; tell me if you want me to focus on something else for the 4 hrs I am available”

      2. Samwise*

        Not your problem. Your boss will never hire because he doesn’t need to — you step in.

        Don’t step in. Let the crap pile up. Yes, you will have a crap pile to sweep when you get back. Do not work extra hours to sweep it. Discuss with him when you get back: do you want me to focus on sweeping the crap pile, or do you want me to get to my current work which is ABC.

        I have a younger/newer colleague who jumps in to help sweep crap on a function I coordinate. But we need to hire at least one dedicated crap-sweeper, really at least two. I have told them that while their willingness to help is admirable, they’re actually making it harder for the whole dept because then it looks like we don’t need that additional employee. They would not stop until I asked our director to speak with them directly. LOL now I get dirty looks from the newbie, but I’m out of f***s so I just smile sweetly.

      3. MassMatt*

        Why WOULD your boss hire someone when you are demonstrating that you can and will work 60-80 hour weeks, and on vacation, to get all the work done?

        I hope you at least have the leverage to demand an immense raise, if there is literally no one else capable of doing your work you have a lot of leverage.

    4. MassMatt*

      My concern is that Faye is neglecting her recovery due to her workaholism.

      My partner had a bad back injury and was in a lot of pain, and tried virtually everything to get better–and there are PLENTY of people trying to sell snake oil for back pain, or meds that will make you mentally foggy and/or constipated.

      The best things were the physical therapy, which he did religiously and all his therapists said most people sadly neglect, and walking.

      The worst things were sitting in one place and (counterintuitively) lying in bed. Sitting puts a lot of stress on the back.

      Is she able to do her work while walking around, etc, or is she sitting and looking at a computer monitor for 10+ hours a day? If the latter, her prognosis is probably poor.

      LW is in a tough position, they’re not Faye’s doctor, but since there is a friendship there they may have the status to mention this to her.

      Maybe phrasing it as “Your job duties now include making sure you do all the rehab etc you can to get better”.

    5. Spicy Tuna*

      At my last job, we could accrue as much PTO as we were entitled to. When I left, I was eligible for 8 weeks of PTO. I banked all of it because I wanted it as a cushion in case I got let go, got seriously ill, or (as what had happened), I left without another job lined up. It was really nice to have two months of pay handled. I only took PTO when my balance got close to the 8 week limit

      1. WFH4VR*

        That’s very unusual. We’re only allowed to carry over 10 vacation days, and zero sick days. If you leave, they’ll pay out only ten days of vacation, even if you’d accrued fifteen or twenty, and unused sick time doesn’t get paid out at all.

  5. AnotherSarah*

    I’m also curious about the meeting LW4 wrote about. Was it a meeting the boss and others at the same level attended, and the boss said “my team will handle that” but never told the team? Or was it a meeting that the team was also in, where everyone nodded and said “oh yes, we can handle that,” but there wasn’t a point person to oversee it and delegate, and the Boston didn’t step in to fill that role? It does seem that the time immediately after that meeting was where things began to get off track, and that might be a place that your boss would want to troubleshoot.

        2. AnonInCanada*

          Or the Boston Strangler. Which may be more appropriate given OP’s scenario.

          Can LW ask for the minutes of that meeting? Maybe then they can show Boss who was assigned to do this project.

    2. Emmy Noether*

      This is exactly what I was wondering.

      There’s a third option, which is that LW was assigned this project, but misunderstood or forgot. Possibly it was just floated as an idea, without a firm assignment (“LW maybe will have the time to do it. Let’s discuss next time!” And then they never did.), which is also how it didn’t end up in the meeting notes.

      Anyway, this is why Action Points circulating after a meeting are a Thing. If it’s not in the AP, it didn’t happen. If there were AP and this wasn’t on the list, I would be very clear that it’s not my fault for “forgetting”. If there were no AP, maybe it’s time to start doing them.

      I bet the boss also forgot until last week, when something prompted him (maybe a question from the other team?).

      1. bamcheeks*

        Yes, I’ve suggested below that LW approach this with her manager from a “what do we need to change about our processes to make sure this doesn’t happen again” and having some kind of written actions or follow-up from that meeting sounds essential. It shouldn’t have just been a verbal agreement that “our team” would take care of it: a significant project changing ownership should be minuted or noted somewhere and the next action (“LW to coordinate with [team]”) should have been noted!

      2. Disappointed Australien*

        There are programs for this, in software we have both calendar-type staff allocation tools and issue tracking ones and use either or both. Post-meeting emails are often just lists of links to the relevant issues once the meeting leader has turned meeting notes into actionable items. Issue trackers also help managing upwards, both in reminding everyone of what’s in progress and what’s on the wish list, and also the quantity in each list (and retroactively listing all the stuff that got done or cancelled).

        It also helps me remember what I’m doing, both in meetings and when I finish a task. Rather that staring blankly into space I look at the issue tracker :)

        1. LW#4*

          Unfortunately, my company seems strongly averse to structured program management tools, and I am not in a position to make that happen (though I wish I was!)

          I do have this kind of thing for myself, though it’s hard to keep something tracked if I don’t know I’m supposed to be tracking it…

          1. Disappointed Australien*

            You don’t have have even the basic mind-reading plugin installed? /s

            Sorry to hear that suggestions aren’t well received, that’s another annoying issue. Tools like this are often a battle even with people who acknowledge that in theory they would help. My office is 10 years into it with the general pattern being that new hires expect the tools and use them, the older staff who haven’t already started likely never will.

      3. Sloanicota*

        I agree that there’s something confusing here about how this meeting rolled out. Maybe OP needs to schedule a check-in with her boss after every meeting like this (if this is a big recurring cross divisional thing that doesn’t happen very often) to confirm next steps and make a plan. It can just be a follow up email. But I agree I’d be disconcerted by this and want to make some kind of change moving forward to feel like it won’t happen again. I probably wouldn’t keep bringing up this specific incident because it sounds like the boss is blaming OP for not taking action after the last meeting.

      4. AngryOctopus*

        Yeah since it’s not in the meeting notes, it feels like it was less “LW is taking this on, we will update at the next meeting” and more “I think maybe LW can do that. I’ll update when we figure it out”.
        In my first job my boss was solicited to write a mini-review, she asked if I wanted to do it, I said sure, and then the next time I heard about it was when the journal wrote to ask where the review was. I can’t remember if the journal has failed to follow up with her or if she hadn’t followed up with me (I think it was the journal because I don’t think she would have forgotten like that, but it was a long time ago), but it was a lesson in the importance of communication for sure.

      5. Link*

        Agree. No one acted on it, boss forgot and kicked it over to OP. Who also forgot. Notes. Meeting documentation.

      6. LW#4*

        My plan is definitely to keep more written notes and action items out of meetings I attend and following up. Thanks for the advice!

        1. Kevin Sours*

          It might be useful to do more than keep these to yourself. Nothing is stopping you from emailing your boss with a “These are the action items I understood were assigned” from a meeting message. That way if there does happen to be a “miscommunication” later you have documentation that it wasn’t corrected promptly.

          Yes it’s an exercise in CYA. But your boss has clearly demonstrated that your A needs to be covered.

    3. EvilQueenRegina*

      Yes, that was my thought, because it didn’t seem entirely clear to me on reading that that OP was actually present at the meeting in question. I could quite easily see a situation where OP wasn’t there and Boss hadn’t realised he hadn’t said anything to her about Project A.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        It sounds like the team agreed to handle it, but no one on the team was assigned to do it. Boss might have mentally thought OP would handle it but never made that clear.

        A process to make sure there is a clear lead for projects in the future is a good idea.

      3. Myrin*

        OP’s “He mentioned a meeting we had with the other team” definitely sounds like she was there, too. I guess by “we” she could’ve meant her own team but seeing how that hypothetical team doesn’t get mentioned anywhere else, I’d assume “we” really does me “boss and I”.

    5. LW#4*

      The meeting my boss referred to I was present at, but our notes from that meeting (and my memory) don’t have anything that mentions I was responsible for the project!

      It is not uncommon for my manager to misremember what was said when, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened here and the meeting he’s having with the other managers of the group was where this was more clearly communicated (but then not down to me). I know this is something that he does commonly, so I usually have my ears perked for hints of what might be discussed outside of meetings I’m present at, but it’s a lot to try and keep track of what responsibilities might be out there I haven’t been told about.

      1. ferrina*

        It is not uncommon for my manager to misremember what was said when

        Ooh, there’s the underlying problem. I’ve worked for these bosses, and it’s a pain. And it ultimately ended up limiting my own career development, because I was regularly put in impossible situations.

        One thing that helped was that I had a standing 1:1 with my boss where I gave an update on every single project that I was on. It was a good time for my boss to say “oh, I also want you to work on Project JKL” or ask “What about [project I forgot to assign to you?”. You can also keep an agenda that becomes your CYA when your boss says “but I told you about that!” and you can show that it didn’t happen. Of course, that doesn’t help when the boss refuses to admit fault- you can do everything right and still be thrown under the bus.

        1. LW#4*

          This might be the way to go, especially to have some written documentation on it. It is definitely a pain though, and there is a part of me that wishes he would also recognize this as an issue and take steps to address it. I don’t want this exercise to feel like I’m just trying to cover my butt, so trying to frame my mind around it in a productive way.

          1. Hlao-roo*

            If you need a more positive frame of mind for documentation: it will cover your butt and it will also show more clearly where the gaps in communication are (between you and your boss? between your boss and other groups? etc.). Hopefully, being able to pinpoint where the breakdown in communications happens can lead to your company filling in those gaps so fewer things are missed in the future.

          2. Workerbee*

            Covering your butt IS extremely productive, career-saving, and essential! Please reframe it in your mind as such. You need to be your own advocate, period.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        If it is common for the manager to misremember then I think that is a bigger problem. Is there anyone above him that you could talk too, especially since he didn’t really appologize or anything. This is a huge problem and it could come back to you. Another thing he should have done is checked in with you WAAAYYY earlier.

        also, is there anyone else from the meeting that you could talk to and ask what they remember from the meeting? If you have one or two others who can back you up when you go to someone else in leadership it will make your case stronger.

  6. Viki*

    LW1 my father has had eczema my entire life. His skin itches so badly that if he cannot scratch it, he is unable to focus. (For the internet, yes he has a doctor and dermatologist regimented medical plan he goes through—it still itches and drives him insane)

    He knows it’s not proper/polite/etc but sometimes it’s all he can do for the situation. Work and life doesn’t let you have itch breaks in the middle of a meeting. And there’s also no real good accommodation, for this. Excuse himself every fifteen-20 minutes in the spring when it gets incredible bad?

    All that to say, I do understand it’s not something anyone wants to see—but sometimes, it’s like sneezing/coughing. You just can’t stop it.

    1. KateM*

      So either your father is unable to focus, or the person he is talking to is unable to focus plus is grossed out. Seems like it’s not worth to have that conversation at all (at least not face-to-face) if both persons can’t be focused on it anyway.

      2. Dahlia*

        All conversations forever?

        I don’t know, I feel like I would stop getting distracted by it after like. Two minutes.

        1. KateM*

          I don’t think “scratching your body under your clothes at your workplace” is a medical condition, though?

    2. Non name*

      I don’t know what is is about eczema but people have weird responses. I’ve had it all my life, usually controlled with occasional flare up. I’ve had numerous people think it’s catching. No it’s not. Or there are a couple of gross people where I work who will loudly proclaim OH MY GAWD HAVE YOU SEEN YOUR FACE if I’m in the break room – I look mildly sunburned during a flare up. I’ve responded equally loudly with “YOU MIGHT WANT TO SPEAK UP I DONT THINK RECEPTION 3 FLOORS DOWN HEARD YOU” which usually shuts the pair of them up.

      1. Meep*

        I think it is because a lot of people (especially young adult men) use eczema as a universal term for rash and it is usually followed up with a phase of refusing to shower or get it checked out. It leads to this stigma that eczema is “unhygienic.”

        My at-the-time 22-year-old BIL insisted he had eczema and couldn’t shower regularly because of it for a good 8 months. Yes, he refused to see a dermatologists. Yes, he stunk to the high heavens. Finally, one of his friends with actual eczema convinced him to go. It was a combo of not showering and when he did shower not using… hand soap in place of body soap…

        And he wasn’t the only guy I know to pull this sh*t.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        That was one thing that wasn’t quite clear, and maybe it does not make a difference? but is the scratching/itchin boss wearing an undershirt? if boss is scratching inside his shirt but over the undershirt it does not seem like it would be a big deal? or is it more just having. hand inside the shirt period?

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          For me, an undershirt makes it slightly less bad, but still over the line to gross because it’s the “hand under the shirt” part. Scratching over a shirt is fine.

          1. Ineffable Bastard*

            and keeps hands/nails cleaner. I don’t want to touch objects touched by somebody who was scratching bare skin, as dead skin, skin oils, blood and other fluids may collect under their nails.

    4. Friday Hopeful*

      Id this was the case then this guy should 100% at least be wearing a T-shirt under his button down. Scratching bare chest skin in front of all your coworkers all day long is just gross.

    5. ferrina*

      Nah, there are options between “Scratch whenever/however wanted” and “never scratch”. You use the example of coughing/sneezing- sure, you need to cough, but you turn and cough into your elbow instead of just coughing into someone’s face while talking to them.

      If Mike has a skin condition (there’s nothing to indicate he does or doesn’t), he can either excuse himself when possible, or if that’s impossible, say something like “I’ve got a skin condition that makes my skin really itchy. It’s not contagious or anything, but I just wanted to apologize in advance if you see me scratching a lot.” Allergy suffers have this conversation a lot- “sorry, it’s allergy season and my allergies are going haywire. Apologies in advance for all the sniffling you are going to hear!”
      Oh, and scratch on top of the clothes, not under the clothes. Hands should not be going under clothes in the office. If you need to scratch under clothes, find somewhere private (bathroom, office with a door, isolated corner, etc)

    7. Arts Akimbo*

      Coincidentally, I am an eczema sufferer, but I also just learned that people can get dandruff almost anywhere on their bodies where hair grows, most commonly on the scalp, eyebrows, and chest. I’m now being treated for eyebrow dandruff, and while it’s almost invisible, it itches like crazy.

      The main thing the dermatologist told me is not to scratch or scrub it, because it’s a genetic condition, and the more you scratch, the faster your skin regenerates those itchy cells. So, this is a public service announcement aimed obliquely at LW1’s boss, but true for everyone– whatever your condition, don’t scratch itchy skin.

      1. KateM*

        When I had itchy skin (coincidentally, on my chest) that I tended to scratch to the point that my GP wondered if I had psoriasis, what made it worse was scratching it and what helped me to get rid of it was scrubbing it. I think I had looked up psoriasis and read that what caused the itching was the old discarded skin so it seemed only logical for me to get rid of that old skin – with a soapy scrubber of course, not my nails.

  7. Bilateralrope*

    LW3, that interchangeable sick and vacation time might be part of the problem. It’s the kind of thing that tells employees to work when they are sick if they want to take a vacation.

    I don’t know about the paid medical leave you get through your state, but that probably has limits that send a message of “only use this if you have to”. Any limits on sick leave send that message.

    But you probably can’t do anything about them, so I agree with Alison here. Let Faye manage her own recovery, with you only stepping in if it affects her work.

  8. bamcheeks*

    LW4, aaaargh, I am having anxiety just thinking about this! What if there is another project you’re supposed to be doing that was mentioned in passing several months ago! I couldn’t relax or trust my boss ever!

    I think I would approach it from that point of view— not trying to get your boss to admit he dropped a ball, but something like, “this has really shaken my confidence, and I’m trying to figure out what I can do to make sure if doesn’t happen again. Can we make sure we do a quick but exhaustive check through of everything you think I’m working on at the end of our one-to-ones, just so I know there’s nothing that I’m not aware of?”

    1. Ellis Bell*

      Oh my god, same. I’d be constantly waiting for the next bomb to drop after this one; he’s not the one who’s going to have to scramble to respond, so his lack of concern is maddening. As well as having that big picture conversation, I would start doing proactive status reports here and there: “This is everything I’m working on this week, X is the priority unless you’d rather I focus on Y”. I had a boss who had historically been great, go through a very off base period where he was off base in this way. We had very unusual shift patterns, which provides essential coverage, and he used to communicate them in writing and post them on the wall and to our email. Then he went through this distracted period where he was all “Oh, I’ll just tell you verbally”. I was aghast, because I have ADHD and I would never trust my memory of a verbal conversation like that, so I had my diary out to make notes of what he was saying. Except he started drive by-ing me and telling me “you’re on earlies next week” before I could get a pen out, before I could check back and repeat to him. Sure enough, I come in and I’ve got it wrong “I told you late shifts”. He has confidence in his (usually) great memory. I start emailing him well in advance to double check any shifts and to get it in writing, as well as walking over witnesses to the drive bys; turns out he was making mistakes after all

    2. Banana Pyjamas*

      I like this approach. I would do it via email or summarize it in email afterwards asking for confirmation, just to have it in writing.

    4. Sam*

      I’m the same! tbh I’m confused as to what else she could have done to be more proactive… if it wasn’t in the meeting notes, in any of her goals or up for discussion at any one-to-ones, then there’s not really anything else she could have done to know about it. but I guess now she knows it’s a risk with this manager that he’s going to do this again so she’ll know to check with him more thoroughly next time. but it’s more work for her and poor management from him.

    5. Sloanicota*

      I agree, I wouldn’t emphasize the “failure” on my part but I would want to move forward with a better shared sense of priorities in my work. Maybe you can take this as a sign that you need more check-ins with the boss; I know as I’ve gotten more senior I’ve moved away from that structure somewhat, but this would be an indication maybe we need better communication. At least if you’d had a check-in the week prior and this task had never come up, you could clearly point to the fact that he knew everything you were working on. (But if he’s determined not to take responsibility, he’s not going to, so don’t focus on that part).

      1. LW#4*

        This is something I already kind of do – I have a list of my team’s (me and my three direct reports) monthly goals at the end of every set of 1:1 notes, but I could definitely be more explicit about making sure we go through them or following up in a written way to get written confirmation that yes, he’s seen everything and yes it looks correct.

    6. LW#4*

      Exactly my worry! What else don’t I know about…

      I definitely won’t get him to take responsibility. As Alison suspected, he is not one to do so, I’ve never seen him take responsibility for anything (or rather, anything bad), so not something I expect to happen, just wishful thinking.

  9. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    3. I incurred a broken spine many years ago and the pain has never, ever left. Sometimes it flares up to truly level 11 ‘call 999 because I can’t live like this’ but most of the time it’s at a level where I have to take strong painkillers every day but I can carry on.

    Distracting the brain from pain by using work is a very common method according to pain management. I’m not saying it’s always a good thing however and I’ve had a lot of bosses over the years try to get me to change that (due in part to not taking time off). Some good, some bad.

    The bad would ask invasive personal questions, decide I shouldn’t be allowed to work on strong medications, suggest I shouldn’t be at work till I’m fully healed (ha!), tell me I’m going to mess up my life at this rate (which might be true but you don’t say that).

    The good ones would show by action that they trusted me to make my own decisions and offer it like ‘if the pain really flares and you need time off then feel free to contact me and we can arrange what you need’. That and being clearly laid out what the process was for requesting (more demanding but I digress) leave, what the limits were (how much you can take before there’s a negative impact on your finances/job at that firm) and such.

    Give the information and take a step back. It can also help if you can show a good record of being willing and able to accommodate time off and medical needs without negative remarks or consequences.

  10. PeopleHaveBodies*

    I find it fascinating that someone who is normally on a “people have bodies” bandwagon doesn’t feel the same way about scratching non-private areas. As someone with fairly bad eczema I scratch all the time. It would never occur to me to leave a room unless it was a private part of my body, and often I don’t realize I’m scratching until I’m doing it so I’ve probably come close to the line in any case.

    A man scratching his chest? How is that any different from a man scratching his arm or his leg or his face? And why would anyone have a problem with that?

    1. Zelda*

      While it’s not a “swimsut area,” it is an area that is expected to be covered in a professional situation. When you’re not in your own home or a bathroom, hands should generally stay outside your clothing.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        I have eczema that sometimes flares up as chronic itching. I still would be weirded out by someone who is “rarely seen without his hand inside his shirt.” Both the constancy and the location (underneath clothes) makes it weird in a professional environment.

        If I must scratch, doing it through clothes is also more effective to me, since it reduces the likelihood that I’ll scratch too hard and actually break my skin.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d be grossed out by a woman scratching her chest inside her shirt, or inside any clothing, or really anyone scratching next to me scratching anywhere all the time. I’d wonder about hygiene, bedbugs or some other infestation.

      I’d ask if she had a problem, although if she said it’s a skin irritation I’d just have to tolerate it.

    4. bamcheeks*

      Yeah, I’ve had bad eczema and pruritis myself, and I would be kind of grossed out by it but also figure it was my job to ignore it. I would partly be grossed out because I’ve had it myself, so I know exactly what bad itching feels like and the kind of horror of knowing you’re making it worse but also being unable NOT to! I try really hard not even to tell my pre-schooler not to scratch because it’s just not helpful.

      (Also, shout out to hydroxyzine hydrochloride, which solved my generalised eczema about fifteen years ago and as long as I stay on top of emollients it’s never come back as badly.)

    5. Literally a Cat*

      It’s tricky because I think what a person previously had for itch would prime them into thinking that’s why others have itch. You have eczema, so you are unbothered by others scratching thinking it’s probably eczema. I had severe urticaria, so I’m unbothered by others scratching thining it’s probably urticaria.

      I suspect any witnesses who had previous scabies, would have completed different feelings to the situation.

    6. Seashell*

      Yeah, I can’t see caring much about that. I think that’s why LW got the response of “if I felt like this was a serious concern, I should take it up with HR.” It was a diplomatic way of saying, “you’re overly sensitive about something that I don’t think matters, so let’s make you HR’s problem.”

      Also, leaving 3 buttons open could vary widely depending on the shirt. He could look like Disco Stu from The Simpsons, or it could be totally normal looking.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        I’d speak to the person, not HR. If it’s a chronic condition or even habit, then he probably doesn’t realise how noticeable and offputting his scratching is. imo it doesn’t reach the level of something to report to HR.
        Also, if he says it’s a skin irritation – which could be driving him nuts – HR would say you have to just tolerate it.

      2. Leaving academia*

        Yeah, I can see that scratching under his shirt is inappropriate or weird, but unless he’s sticking his hand all the way to his armpit, I don’t see how it’s gross. I’m guessing it’s because I associate itching with innocuous, noncontagious issues? Mostly mosquito bites, which presumably wouldn’t be constant, but also dry skin, eczema, sensitivity to friction from shirt, etc.

        Maybe it could be seen as gross since watching someone scratch can make you itchy, a bit like how yawning is contagious. But scratching over/through clothes wouldn’t fix that. Scratching through clothes is also more likely to further irritate the skin. If this guy is scratching that often, even if it’s not particularly vigorous, I would assume he’s fairly uncomfortable. Sometimes that vague understanding of how the other person might feel can twinge as discomfort.

        1. LaurCha*

          I think it’s icky to me because I’m like “what exactly is under his fingernails ALL DAY LONG, and how often does he wash his hands?” Maybe I’m being germophobic? It just gives me the ick to imagine dry skin all under his fingernails.

          1. Ineffable Bastard*

            exactly! What if the person’s skin oozes, too? Or bleeds? I certainly scratched an itch to the point of bleeding myself and don’t agree to submit other people to whatever got under my fingernails.

    7. Kt*

      The chest is a semi-private area (see yesterday’s post about a woman asked to talk with her coworker about cleavage). A man wearing three buttons undone on a button -front shirt is unusual in the US. He’s also putting his hand in his shirt. If he (or anyone regardless of gender) stuck his hands in his pants to scratch, that would also be an issue.

    8. xylocopa*

      I hear you, but I do think it’s understandable to be put off if someone constantly has their hands under their clothing. “Rarely seen without his hand inside the shirt” is…a lot.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        When I was in retail, I had a customer go over to the kitchenware section, select a pasta twirler, and then proceed to scratch his back with it- under his coat and shirt. I never threw away an item so fast in my life. So gross- don’t do that! If it’s right around a sleeve or collar, sure, but definitely not multiple buttons down, whole hand in the shirt.

    10. AngryOctopus*

      It feels weird to have to watch someone (anyone) scratch inside their clothing, TBH. Think about it this way—if I have a leg itch, and I scratch it over my clothes, no big deal. If I’m reaching up inside my pants to scratch? That feels more awkward for anyone around me.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      It’s not the scratching alone that’s the issue. It’s the scratching under clothing, and the frequency of it. If he’d done this once or twice ever, roll eyes, ignore. But it sounds like he’s doing this more often than he’s not doing it. That puts it closer into something like “do your grooming in private” territory than “people have bodies” territory.

  11. ForcedTimeOff*

    LW1, it’s her time off. She gets to decide how/whether she wants to use it. I would be furious if a boss tried to tell me I had to use my time off in a certain way, especially if it was sick time related to illness/injury/permanent conditions I was managing to work with just fine. It’s infantilizing at best, and smacks of ableism when the reason is to help someone better manage their medical conditions (when they didn’t ask for it).

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      The manager should not say how an employee manages their illnesses or disability, so long as they are not infecting coworkers.
      BUT, a manager or employer does have the final say on work. They can decide that an employee refusing to take leave is against policy, or has a disruptive effect on their organisation, or or not want to pay out a large amount of banked PTO/sick days when the employee leaves.

      Also, someone refusing to take time off can be a red flag for covering up financial skulduggery or major performance mistakes.

      The purpose of paid work is to be a relief from personal problems – an employee has to fit in with expectations of their employer and coworkers.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Ooops!
        The purpose of paid work is NOT to be a relief from personal problems – an employee has to fit in with expectations of their employer and coworkers.

      2. Clisby*

        I wouldn’t think a manager could simply decide something is policy, unless the manager happens to be the CEO. If there is a policy that allows banking only up to X days, it’s on the company to have a system where it’s not possible to bank more; and the employee can decide whether to take leave in excess of that or forfeit the leave. There could also be a policy that employees *have* to take a certain amount of leave per year. But that’s not typically something a manager could dictate.

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          The manager may just be enforcing the expectations – even the rules – of the organisation rather than inventing their own.
          Taking your full PTO and appropriate sick leave was mandatory in my unionised industry (in Germany)

    2. carrot cake*

      Well, no, it’s looking out for the endeavor above all else by way of making sure the team is as rested and refreshed as possible at all times. That’s a manager’s job. Nothing “infantilizing” or ableist about it.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        In this case, Faye might benefit from working–others with constant pain, and/or severe lower back pain, have said that keeping one’s mind occupied helps them immensely. As long as her work is up to snuff, it’s not okay for the manager to insist she go on leave.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, there are many reasons why a manager or business may wish to insist on someone taking their full PTO and sick leave. Concern about financial misdeeds is a major one, as is discovering work has not been done properly due to prolonged illness.

    3. AnonInCanada*

      Very good point. That’s why many businesses insist that employees entrusted to financials take their scheduled PTO and are completely disconnected with any part of the company during that time (i.e. no emails, no Slack/Teams/Zoom messages, no company related phone calls etc.) You never know what shenanigans Faye may be hiding unless someone else is looking after her job and makes those discoveries.

    4. Artemesia*

      I know a small business and two professional associations that were embezzled by very trusted employees and heard of another in our town. Financial double checks/auditing are always important in an organization and if this person had financial responsibilities that is something to at least take a look at. It isn’t ‘her’ — it is just good practice to not ever be in a position where it could happen. In the small business, it was a good friend whom they could not imagine would steal from them in their struggling business.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      Not just the financials. There are other kinds of shenanigans that can be pulled beyond the purely monetary.

      See: Theranos et. al. (and yes, it was eventually prosecuted as investor fraud because it became financial, but the original goal wasn’t a financial scheme)

    6. Kmoo*

      I was thinking exactly this. Faye needs to be put on leave and someone needs to do a full audit of her last few years’ work. The LW didn’t say what department were in, but there are ways to embezzle even from outside of accounting.

    1. Linguist*

      The original meaning of nonplussed is “completely confused, taken aback, baffled, didn’t know what to do”. Recently it seems to have been being used to mean the exact opposite – to describe someone unruffled, unsurprised, taking it all in their stride. I don’t know why this change came about.

        1. Still Spooky*

          I think that’s a case of language evolving, though. We need a word with the used / incorrect meaning of nonplussed, and “nonplussed” even sounds like it would mean that. We have no need for another synonym for befuddled/boggled/shocked/taken aback. I say let it switch.

          1. Dread Pirate Roberts*

            I think people confused nonplussed with nonchalant until the definition changed to mean two completely opposite things and now we are all befuddled/boggled by what people truly mean when they say nonplussed :)

        2. Non non non all the way home*

          Yes, to use another word whose meaning has changed, that is literally what happened.

      2. Best Coke Ever*

        Nonplussed and erstwhile are two words that I thought meant something different for many years

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Fwiw, my sense of the word straddles these–someone is confused, but in a way that they draw their eyebrows down and say “Huh.” They are surprised at whatever the information is, and perplexed, but the reaction is what you would expect from someone who is hard to ruffle, and this didn’t do it.

      4. fhqwhgads*

        It’s not a particularly recent change, but my understanding is the “meh” definition is generally a North American thing.

    2. amoeba*

      I understood it as “he acted like he had zero idea how the situation came about”, which (as a non-native speaker) made sense to me, using the original, correct definition of the word?

      1. bamcheeks*

        That doesn’t quite work for me because the older definition of “nonplussed” isn’t just “baffled”, it’s “baffled and unsure how to proceed”. The element of being taken aback and uncertain isn’t there in the way LW describes it. So I think they are using in the newer sense of “unbothered, unconcerned”.

      2. Happy*

        From the rest of the letter it sounds to me like the boss wasn’t acting confused, though – boss thought it was LW’s fault that the ball dropped.

        (It does not sound to me like it actually was LW’s fault, just that boss thought so.)

    3. Butterfly Counter*

      I always thank Jose Chung’s “From Outer Space” for getting the true definition of nonplussed.

      I don’t remember the exact line, but Chung, talking to Scully says something like, “I take it from your non-nonplussed reaction that this was something you were expecting.”

    4. LW#4*

      Thank you for helping educate me about how that word might be confusing to people! To be clear, my boss was completely unbothered and seemed not to see the issue at hand.

      1. Artemesia*

        Wow I did read it with the correct meaning and thus was imagining and upset and confused boss seeking to dump it off on the LW.

      2. Happy*

        Thanks for clarifying!

        Your situation sounds incredibly frustrating. I do like the idea of explicitly walking through your team’s To Do list with boss more often to verify that there aren’t any gaps, but that would drive me up a wall, wondering what else boss knows but isn’t telling me.

  14. Sloanicota*

    #5 – having a former supervisor on your side is still a great asset in a job search, even if you wouldn’t want to use them as a reference since you’re not putting the job in the resume – instead, ask Tracy to connect you with people she might know who are looking for someone who fits your profile. Maybe she can say something like, “we just had someone great start with us – they didn’t work out as a llama groomer but they would have been a lot better as a llama trainer – are you going to be hiring any trainers coming up?” It could lead to something, either from her contact or because the contact knows someone else. You might have to ask explicitly if she would be willing to do this for you (and maybe suggest the pitch) but she could be perfectly willing to do it, and I know a lot of people who’ve gotten jobs this way.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Rereading this, “a lot better” isn’t very persuasive – try “they would have been perfect as a trainer” or something. But it does require Linda to think through where the mis-match was in the role and what would be a better fit (and for Tracey to agree). Linda might also start by asking Tracey what she thinks Linda’s strengths are and go from there.

    2. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      If Linda uses Tracy as a reference, with Tracy saying something like “we just had someone great start with us – they didn’t work out as a llama groomer but they would have been a lot better as a llama trainer – are you going to be hiring any trainers coming up?” Linda had better make up a resume that includes working at Tracy’s company, because otherwise it would look strange to have Tracy from XYZ Company talk about Linda who had a great start with us, only for Linda’s resume to show nothing about XYZ Company.

      1. Sloanicota*

        If Tracey is the first contact at a company that might not even be hiring for the role yet, the hiring manager will already know the situation at the prior company so there won’t be a conflict. OP can leave it on or off, it’s already been discussed. If OP is cold-applying to places through the regular portal with no connection to Tracey, leave it off.

  15. Skoobles*

    For LW#2, even if people realized it was non-alcoholic beer, it’d still come across extremely oddly. NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics; to specifically drink it at work could give the impression you are a recovering alcoholic who needs to drink NA beer at work to avoid getting drunk, which is probably not something you want to do if you’ve got alternatives.

    1. xylocopa*

      I’d say it’s less and less true that NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics–that’s something that’s really changing.

      But the number of people with that continued perception does add another point in favor of not having it at work.

    2. BlueFrenchHorn*

      “ NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics” – I’m guessing this is intended as a comment about how things are in the US and wondering whether it’s true since it’s the first time I’m hearing this. But I’m also based in an EU country where non-alcoholic beer is just a normal drink for people who opt not to drink alcohol, with no particular connotations.

      1. UKDancer*

        First time I’ve heard that as well. In the UK it’s common for people having a pub lunch but needing to drive or do something after or go back to work, people with medications interacting badly with alcohol, pregnant women who want the flavour of beer and people needing to look after children while having a picnic.

        I’m not a beer drinker myself but it’s incredibly popular. My local waitrose supermarket has many shelves of alcohol free beer for example.

        1. Skoobles*

          The UK having the kind of culture that goes to the pub for lunch drinks and has beer ubiquitously on hand for all social functions makes it pretty different than the US, where going out to grab drinks during working hours is usually considered pretty weird except in explicitly laid-back, non-corporate environments.

          Obviously a lot of drinking happens in the US but the expectation of social activities centering around the pub and beer being The Thing You Drink isn’t really present.

        2. Nonsense*

          That is… not helping the association that NA beer is a substitute for someone wanting an actual beer.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I mean — I don’t think that’s a problem? It’s drunk by people who like the taste and associations of alcoholic beer but don’t want alcohol either at all or at that particular time and place. Unless you think anyone who ever wants to drink alcoholic beer counts as an alcoholic, I don’t get what you think is being refuted!

            1. Dinwar*

              I’ve heard literally that argument made–that any desire for an alcoholic drink is a craving and thus proof that you’re an alcoholic. Mostly from people deep in the Alcoholics Anonymous sphere. And arguing with them only proves you’re in denial, which proves you’re an alcoholic.

              The idea that some of us enjoy the flavor, the cultural aspect, the ritual aspect (for cocktails), and the like is simply not something some people are willing to consider. They consider alcohol inherently immoral, and thus anything associated with alcohol is immoral, and that’s as far as they’re willing to think.

              2. Irish Teacher.*

                That reminds me of this really obnoxious speaker we had at a retreat when we were teenagers who, among many other things, told us he “didn’t believe” in social drinking, that that was just an excuse to “get drunk ’cause I’m with my friends.” So…basically, he didn’t believe it was possible to drink responsibly. Anybody who drinks was basically an alcoholic in denial, according to him.

                (Our teacher asked us afterwards about what we thought of the retreat and what recommendations we’d make to improve it for future years and the consensus was “do not ask that idiot back!”)

          2. Flor*

            Well, yeah, of course it’s a substitute for actual beer; you get the beer flavour without the alcohol. If you don’t want the flavour of beer, you’re going to drink coke or sparkling water or something.

            1. UKDancer*

              Yes of course it’s a substitute and drunk by people who like the taste of beer. I mean I think beer tastes nasty so I don’t drink it, with or without the alcohol.

              If you didn’t like the taste of beer you wouldn’t substitute non alcoholic beer.

              I like the taste of mojitos and sometimes have a mocktail if I’m meeting a friend for lunch and shopping. It give me the taste and feeling of a cocktail but without the alcohol so I remain alert for shopping (spirits can make me sleepy).

          3. Roland*

            What’s wrong with liking the taste of beer? Like, the problem with beer at work is the alcohol specifically, it’s nonalcoholic, what’s the issue? It seems like you’re being a bit circular with your logic about the problem here.

          4. Dinwar*

            I’m lost as to why it’s a bad thing to drink something as a substitute for a beer. Wanting a beer isn’t a sign that one is an alcoholic; it’s often a sign that one merely enjoys the flavor. Sometimes you want to enjoy the flavor of a beverage but not the side-effects.

            The coffee guru James Hoffmann once said that those who drink decaf coffee are the real coffee afficionados–they drink it not for the effects of the caffeine, but for the flavor alone. This is something similar. Those who drink non-alcoholic beer are the real beer lovers, as they enjoy the beer for its flavor and as a food, rather than for the drug in the drink.

            1. Leaving academia*

              I think this is going to be very social circle dependent. The James Hoffman video is actually not a bad comparison, but that’s also because he notes decaf isn’t necessarily 0 caffeine! Same is true for alcohol.

              First, for the actual letter, I think Alison’s answer of “if the alcoholic version isn’t appropriate, the nonalcoholic version will look weird” makes sense. There might be some cultural differences around whether the alcoholic version would be appropriate(.), but I don’t understand the comments that seem to ignore the part that says it’s an optics issue. For the association with alcoholism: US alcohol consumption (including type) varies a lot by location, socioeconomic background, and age. If you aren’t in a beer drinking social circle, then it’s going to be harder to understand the appeal of drinking nonalcoholic beer. But until very recently, nonalcoholic versions of alcoholic beverages have been associated with hiding the fact you aren’t drinking, and people tend to fill in their own biases as to why someone would not drink (especially why they would secretly not drink).

              1. Dinwar*

                I understand why it would be bad in certain situations to drink NA beer. But the comment I was responding to made it sound like NA beer ITSELF was the problem. The question here is the motive for wanting to drink NA beer, which is going to matter in pretty much any social situation.

                Further, I’m not happy with the notion “This was associated with something bad, therefore we should avoid it.” There’s something to be said for educating people about things. Again, this will be situationally dependent–if I’m with my peers at a steakhouse I’m not going to hesitate (dining together is a common practice in my profession), but if my boss’s boss is with us I may avoid it until I see what he orders.

                1. Leaving academia*

                  Because, frankly, this is changing the question. If the question is “in a situation where alcoholic beer is inappropriate, is nonalcoholic beer acceptable”, then the question is about optics (which apparently include smell in this case). If your response to someone assuming an alcoholic beer is nonalcoholic is “education”, then that is exactly what Alison means by “trying too hard to be provocative.”

                  If the question is why do some in the US assume that nonalcoholic beer is for alcoholics, then the answer is that until very recently, there were very few options available and those options did not have a very good reputation. So people are using their own biases to fill in the blanks for why someone would choose to drink something that (theoretically?) tastes bad. Which, actually, is another parallel with the James Hoffman decaf video! When only low quality options were available, and the process for removing a major component negatively affected the taste, people didn’t like the taste. But a wider range of quality options and less alteration of the taste as processes change, more people will start choosing it for the taste.

                  If the question is then why don’t you just ask the person….that’s people chose drinks that hide that they are not drinking. Again, as more nonalcoholic options become available, more people will try them and like them, and the association will slowly change.

                2. Dinwar*

                  “…and the association will slowly change.”

                  How do you expect this to happen without us pushing the boundaries a bit? That’s HOW associations slowly change–people with the political capital (or disregard for their jobs) do things that are a bit outside the norm until it becomes the new norm. To object to the process because it’s not the new norm is in fact to argue that the norm should not be changed. Note that this applies to everything from non-alcoholic beers to clothing styles to language. That’s why I find your argument rather off-putting; it’s not that this is beer (even if I could I wouldn’t drink non-alcoholic beer at work; just not my thing), but the logic behind it is logic that has been used to silence a lot of movements in the past. “Don’t make waves and you’ll have more success” is simply not the way social change happens.

                  And again, I’m not saying to crack one open at your desk at 10 am. There are times and places to push boundaries. A driller having a non-alcoholic beer at lunch is a good example–you DO NOT want a drunk driller, but a quick “This is non-alcoholic, my brother-in-law got me into it, tastes pretty good but as much alcohol as a Sprite” is about all the “education” necessary (if you work around drillers, anyway), and at least in my experience starts a friendly discussion. It’s slightly outside the norm, but close enough to the norm that it’s not egregious–even those who object will acknowledge that their objections are fundamentally silly, though sometimes business requires us to do silly things.

          5. DisgruntledPelican*

            A substitute drink for someone who would otherwise drink a beer is not the same this as a substitute drink for an alcoholic, which is what the original comment said.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        US here. Enjoyed by designated drivers, people on medicine that interacts with alcohol, dieters cutting calories, people at a party where they want to stay alert, people who are going to play a baseball game after the picnic, people at the beach who plan to swim in the near future, and I’ve even run into someone who likes it but doesn’t like the taste of alcohol.

      3. Leaving academia*

        I don’t think it’s necessarily seen as a substitute drink for alcoholics in the US, either, but the proliferation of decent nonalcoholic beers (and mocktails, etc) is very recent, maybe the last 5-7 years. I think it has partially paralleled the expansion of small batch breweries over the past 15ish years. It definitely takes time for people to adjust their biases, especially as there are other default nonalcoholic options.

        However, it does seem like in Europe, nonalcoholic beer is still an alternative to alcohol *in contexts where one might consume alcohol*. That is the main optics issue.

      4. Butterfly Counter*

        I wonder if it’s the different qualities of beer in the US vs. the EU that makes a difference. Don’t get me wrong, the US does pretty great with some of their beers that are pretty tasty, but by and large the most popular beers… don’t taste good. I can’t imagine many people who would want to drink a Budweiser if it didn’t help them alter reality a bit.

        I like a lot of beers, but the thought of drinking a non-alcoholic beer in the US just because, *bleck*.

        But that’s just me. I probably would side-eye an American drinking what seems at first glance to be a beer (though not today).

        1. bamcheeks*

          That definitely used to be the case here in the UK too– non-alcoholic beers used to be versions of mass-produced lagers like Carling or (American) Budweiser. Real ale / cask ales were always alcoholic. Then came the rise of the craft beers, IPAs, and independent and microbrewers, and then they started doing non- and low-alcohol versions of those. There’s a craft beer shop about five minutes walk from me where you can buy a zero-alcohol, independently-produced, grapefruit-infused IPA in a vivid cartoon-patterned can if you want, or if you prefer a low-alcohol chocolate porter or a 0% German wheatbeer. Even more recently I’ve had high-botanical, no-alcohol gin in a G&T. It’s a very rapidly growing market!

      7. umami*

        I’m in the US, and it’s the first time I hear this! I started getting it for parties because I had a few friends who would like to have a beer, then follow it with a NA one. There would always be some left, so I tried it and liked it! I drink NA beer fairly regularly at home. I like beer, and I don’t always want to have alcohol. It never would have occurred to me that others might view me as a recovering alcoholic!

    3. epicdemiologist*

      I think your “almost exclusively considered” is very heavily dependent on who’s doing the considering. I agree with many commenters higher in the thread that many of my acquaintances like NA beer for reasons that have nothing to do with alcoholism. This is the same thinking that leads from “Susie’s having a soft drink” to “Susie MUST be pregnant!!!”

    4. SarahKay*

      Well, here in the UK non-alcoholic beer is increasingly popular. I have an absurdly low tolerance for alcohol, but (particularly on a hot day) really like beer, and am delighted by how many choices I now have, and how really good those choices are.

      1. Skoobles*

        To be flippant, with the UK’s drinking/pub culture, “NA beer is a substitute drink for alcoholics” probably still applies.

        To be less flippant, with the UK’s drinking/pub culture, an alternative drink specifically to mimic the same social conventions as going out and having a bunch of beers has an obvious cultural fit separate from alcoholism that doesn’t really apply in the same way to the United States, where the drinking culture is very different.

        1. SarahKay*

          Umm… my sister does a lot of work with recovering alcoholics, and from everything she says I’d be amazed if most of them are drinking non-alcoholic beer, because it’s just too close to a habit they’re trying to break.

          1. Skoobles*

            Every recovering alcoholic I know in the US has non-alcoholic beer available. That was the primary market for it for literally decades until maybe the past few years, the same way tons of smokers suck on lollipops or otherwise engage something that mimics the habits of a smoke break.

            1. AMH*

              And every recovering alcoholic I know in the US (quite a few, in my family) has been told not to drink it for the reason SarahKey mentions. It is likely the messaging around it has changed as we better understand addiction, and obviously your perception is one of the reasons it would be bad optically for OP to be drinking it at work, but the point is it’s no longer a universal in the US.

        2. Flor*

          Yeah, the UK has a strong pub culture where the beer is part of a broader experience that the US doesn’t have in the same way. AFAIK there’s no corrollary in the US to the trope of sitting by a roaring fire in your local while the drizzle spatters the windows behind you with a pint of bitter in front of you.

          The other thing is that the UK has a very low social tolerance for drink driving. Any time someone’s offered me a drink in the UK and I’ve said, “I’m driving”, that’s it, no more offers, no “So am I!” or “It’s only one” (both things people have said to me in Canada). In a culture where having “just one” with dinner before driving home is increasingly viewed as irresponsible, the non-alcoholic beer becomes the way to enjoy a meal that’s traditionally enjoyed with beer (eg fish and chips at the pub) responsibly.

        3. amoeba*

          It’s not just the UK though, certainly also Germany (OK, yes, you could argue the same way there…) and Switzerland (which as far as I know doesn’t have any particularly famous alcohol culture?

          Also, a lot of people also just like to have it… at home. Which, yes, you could argue, that’s also a place where you would typically assume alcohol. Or at a picnic. Or any kind of social gathering. Etc. Like, if in your argument *every* non-work situation is somewhat associated with alcohol, it gets a bit far-fetched, no?

          I can honestly not think of many (any?) situations where a coke would feel appropriate but a non-alcoholic drink wouldn’t. Like, both of those I probably wouldn’t offer for breakfast, sure. But any other time?

    5. Despachito*

      “NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics”

      what?

      It may be country dependent but I have never heard of such a thing. I know a lot of people who are not alcoholics by any means but just like the taste. They either do not drink alcohol at all, or may have an occasional glass of beer but in this case they are designated drivers.

      It would never occur to me that if I see someone drinking NA beer s/he must be a recovering alcoholic.

    6. Mairead*

      “NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics”
      Really? This is news to me. I’m in Ireland and NA beer is a rapidly growing segment of the drinks market. From Irish Beer Market Report 2023:
      “sales of non-alcohol beer grew last year by 18% and production surged by 50% in response to rising consumer demand”
      That said, I agree with Alison that it wouldn’t be the wisest choice while at work.

    7. kt*

      Non-alcoholic beer is quite popular among athletes as well. It has been studied as an effective recovery drink after endurance running, for instance, and allows you to get up and do morning training with less stress. It is unfortunate that it has this lingering image as a substitute drink for alcoholics (some portion of whom would not use it at all because they find it triggers bad habits/associations).

      I really enjoy NA IPAs and have certainly drunk them during work from home summer afternoons. I keep them off camera.

    8. Pescadero*

      82% of NA beer drinkers ARE alcohol drinkers – so not in recovery.

      Less than 1/3 weekly drinkers of NA beer screen positive for alcohol use disorder in standard testing.

    9. Lady Danbury*

      I know many people who enjoy the taste of beer but don’t drink or have reduced their drinking for various reasons, so I wouldn’t assume anything regarding alcoholism if I saw someone drinking NA beer. However, I would find it strange if someone is drinking it in the workplace.

    10. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree the optics would be weird, but I disagree that NA beer is exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics.

    11. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I perceive it less as a drink substitute for alcoholics and more as a drink option available so that one can appear to fit in with a drinking crowd without feeling pressured to drink. It shouldn’t be weird, but it’s still a weird impression to give at work.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      I was under the impression that non-alcoholic beer is not alcoholic in the same way some “fat free” foods are fat free. That is, there’s an FDA-allowed-labelling convention, and it doesn’t mean it contains none, it means it contains little enough that you’re allowed to call it “none”, but if you consume multiple servings, you increasingly move toward “calculable” rather than “insignificant” amounts.
      Not that the LW was saying they want to drink an entire 6-pack at work or anything. But I still wouldn’t drink it at work because “non” in this context doesn’t necessarily mean zero, and while it’s not like it’s enough to cause impairment, it goes back to the whole “optics” thing.

      1. amoeba*

        There are different kinds hereabouts – actual 0.0 (mostly marketed exactly like that, taste slightly more different from alcoholic beer) and < 0.5 (produced from actual beer by removing the alcohol, so does still contain some residue).

      2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

        The alcohol content for non-alcoholic beer is <0.5% ABV, which is equivalent to kombucha, kefir, fresh (soft) cider, or a ripe banana.

    13. AMH*

      Obviously perception differs, but I can tell you as someone with a lot of addiction in my family, drinking NA beer was/is not recommended for any of the alcoholics in recovery (again, in my family, not saying that’s true everywhere).

    14. Pizza Rat*

      NA beer is almost exclusively considered a substitute drink for alcoholics

      Not so. There are plenty of reasons to want to enjoy the taste of beer without wanting the alcohol. Like if you’re eating pizza and need to be sharp later. NA beer may have been originally marketed to people in recovery, but it’s never been a drink solely for them.

      I wouldn’t drink it at work because of optics, like Allison said.

    15. Person from the Resume*

      I disagree with Skoobles. I think NA beers have small level of alcohol and would not be recommend for someone in recovery.

      I do think NA beer as a substitute for beer for someone who would much rather be drinking a alcoholic beer. Which is not a perception you really want to give off at work.

      The wide variety of answers all highlight the optics are bad for drinking NA beer at work. There’s no one common belief and some are definitely negative.

  16. Polly Hedron*

    If LW#3’s office is in the US and Faye is non-exempt, working unpaid overtime is illegal.

  17. Iris*

    When I was working retail, I had an older woman manager who would absent-mindedly stick her hand up under the back of her untucked shirt and root around back there, itching her back and under her bra band. It was incredibly gross! She mainly did this when talking to someone including customers (gag).

    She would also root around over her clothes near her belly (she favored no-waist dresses) and then audibly snap her underwear waistband.

    It was absolutely revolting and made me think she was getting dementia, but I think it was just a nervous habit. I am a woman 5 years older than her and I can manage to be in public without constantly fondling my body and rearranging my underwear

    1. Pizza Rat*

      Even if she has sensory issues, this is out of line. She needs to figure out what underwear actually fits. Tagless and seamless things are more readily available these days.

  18. Alan*

    #2 reminds me still of one day when I was walking into work behind my grandboss, holding a 6-pack of root beer packaged in very realistic “beer bottles”. He was not amused. To this day he probably still thinks I was getting drunk at the office.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Aldi had some root beer like this for a while, back when I was still drinking soda. I put it in my lunch a couple of times at OldExJob and got teased about drinking at the office.

      1. Kaden Lee*

        I had something similar happen with Torani sampler syrups at work – they come in a three pack of nips bottles and when I poured the contents of a small bottle into my coffee at work one of my coworkers noticed and thankfully said something in the moment. After that I made a show of leaving the bottles out so everybody knew it wasn’t liquor.

    2. JustaTech*

      I’ve been carded for root beer in glass bottles.
      “Sure, here’s my ID, but this is soda, not beer.”

  19. I should really pick a name*

    #3 Independent of the back injury, I think you can address the fact that Faye isn’t using her vacation time.

  20. too many dogs*

    LW #2: I agree that the optics might upset some people who didn’t know it was non-alcoholic beer. I do not drink beer (I’m a wino), and cannot stand the smell of beer breath. Does non-alcoholic beer smell like, um, beer-beer? Would others notice that if it did and wonder what you were drinking?

    1. LaurCha*

      Oh, most definitely. Their office would smell beery and so would their breath. It would be a really bad look to toodle around the office smelling of beer.

      1. JustaTech*

        We did a non-alcoholic beer tasting at work for Oktoberfest and everything tasted and smelled like beer. (Some beer experts said they could taste the alcohol-stripping process, but all I could taste were the hops.)

  21. Aggretsuko*

    So I work at a place that deals with drunk drivers. While leaving work, I saw a guy pouring out what looked like a GIANT beer can out of his car, while in the driver’s seat. I was all, “um….here?!” Like, I HOPE that’s nonalcoholic beer because otherwise…

  22. learnedthehardway*

    OP#5 – you should definitely not use Tracy as a reference – she hasn’t known you long enough to give a considered opinion and you left the role off your resume. It will just raise questions of why you didn’t disclose the role and why were you let go from it.

    I would instead ask Tracy to help you network in the industry / functional area in which you work, or ask her for ideas for where you could apply.

    If Tracy refers you to a specific hiring manager, then it would make sense to say in an interview with that person that you worked for that company for a very short time, but it wasn’t a good fit. You didn’t put it on your resume because it was such a short time. However, Tracy can speak to the situation and has been kind enough to refer you.

  23. fhqwhgads*

    LW4, also consider the possibility that reopening this will make you look bad, rather than get your boss to acknowledge anything new. From your telling of it, it sounds like boss’s impression is you had the ball from that meeting onward, and you dropped it, not that boss did. I’m not saying it’s great to assign a thing and then never follow up til a week before – it’s not. And I took from your comment about the lack of mention of it in meeting notes that possibly you doubt that actually was discussed in that meeting? But from your boss’s perspective, it probably looks like you dropped the ball and then cleaned up the mess, rather than the boss dropping the ball. I’m not saying that’s true necessarily, but the goal here can’t be “get boss to acknowledge how bad this was”. It’s got to be “prevent it from happening again, regardless of whose fault it was this time.”

    1. LW#4*

      Totally agree with you, and it’s highly unlikely he would take any responsibility here anyway. I don’t need to “win”, I just don’t want this to happen again!

      I do have my doubts it was discussed at the meeting, and that’s why I’m planning on taking more meticulous notes. This is something I have already been working on improving across the board, so it fits right in…

  24. JFC*

    Re: LW #1: I think there are two possibilities here. 1) This sounds like one of those absentminded habits that people sometimes get into without realizing it. It sounds similar to someone twirling their hair, drumming their fingers or picking at their nails. 2) It could be a skin condition like eczema or psoriasis. He may be leaving some buttons undone for comfort or to reduce irritation.

    Either way, I wouldn’t assume he’s intentionally trying to gross people out.

    1. LaurCha*

      Well, no, not intentionally, but as we all know it’s entirely possible to gross people out by accident. (i.e. drawers full of fingernail clippings)

  25. Dinwar*

    Sort of related to #2: I recently purchased some coffee that has been aged in bourbon barrels. There’s no alcohol in it–the state I’m in has VERY strict regulations on alcohol sales, and the coffee has been tested–but it smells and tastes like you put a healthy slug of reasonably good bourbon into the coffee. It’s got all those flavor chemicals you get from aging spirits in barrels.

    I’ve been operating on the assumption that this is an “Enjoy at home” beverage. I won’t brew a cup to drink on the road, for example, because I can’t imagine the cops would believe me that it’s non-alcoholic. But am I right in assuming that this is also not something I should be brewing in the office?

    Please don’t comment on me preferring to be drinking whiskey at work. I don’t; I actually enjoy the flavor.

    1. Roland*

      If it smells like bourbon then I’d agree it’s probably best not to brew it in the office, but there’s probably many offices where it wouldn’t be a huge deal.

    2. bamcheeks*

      OMG this sounds amazing?! Off to find out whether it’s available in the UK and whether I could probably buy it as a present for half my family…

      1. SarahKay*

        On the other side of the scales, there is a 19 Crimes red wine available in the UK that has coffee added, and it’s amazing. Although, clearly, not for work consumption!
        And a friend who is prone to migraines looked at it in utter horror and muttered darkly about the whole concept, but I’ve really enjoyed it.

        1. Mairead*

          Waves from Ireland! I like that one too, but sadly my local supermarket doesn’t seem to carry it any more. I’m also a fan of Jameson Cold Brew (whiskey + coffee).
          The coffee aged in bourbon barrels also sounds great.

      2. Dinwar*

        The brand I got is called Whiskey Morning Coffee. It’s out of Texas, but expanding to other states (which is where my state got involved) and available online. Not sure if they sell overseas or not.

        I made some for a bourbon snob I know, and he didn’t finish the cup before he bought some from them. For comparison, it’s got a similar flavor profile to Buffalo Trace (obviously mixed with coffee). I don’t know the actual barrels they use; it’s probably on their website, but I bought mine in person and they didn’t have that info available.

        1. bamcheeks*

          There is some made in Huddersfield ten miles down the road from me! Not traditionally a famous bourbon maker, but I’ll take it. :D

    3. A Significant Tree*

      I had some hot chocolate flavored with Bailey’s Irish Cream once, and did make some in the office on a cold morning. That was a mistake – people could smell it and although I showed them the packaging and I doubt they actually thought I had added the real alcohol, it was awkwardly commented on. Never again – enjoy that sort of thing at home!

  26. Best Coke Ever*

    “Linda has other options for references, but they are from a position that ended in June.”

    Linda should definitely use those other options – i’m not sure why the fact that it ended in June is relevant?

    1. Silver Robin*

      they are not from the most recent job and it looks like she has been out of work for longer. but a single month is really not a big deal, so that should not matter.

      1. Best Coke Ever*

        Right but if she’s leaving the month long job off the resume anyway, it’ll be apparent that she stopped working in June

  27. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    LW1 – are we talking 3 casual-shirt buttons, which are close together – like 1″ or 2″, or are is this 3 dress-shirt buttons, which are much farther apart?

    If it’s the latter, then this is might be a dress-code issue.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      But not one that LW has the power address, given that they are lower in the reporting chain.

  28. Person from the Resume*

    LW3, you are new manager. I think you need to try to change Faye’s overworking habits. That’s the underlying problem. Is she supposed to be working OT like she is? Is she supposed to be paid for her OT? *

    That’s what you should address. You should also address working while sick/injured only if her work is suffering. If it is as others stated, if her back hurts all the time as far as she is concerned she might as well work because not working won’t make it hurt less.

    But you should tell her going forward that she needs to get work hours closer to X (40, 50, 55 ??). She should definitely not work any days she takes as vacation. She should not work weekends.

    She is setting a bad example for others and a bad precedent in the office if people consider her a good or great employee. You will need to managed this and it’s hard because it sounds like no one has been doing it. If she truly has too much work to complete in a 40 – 50 hour work week, you need to know. When she leaves her replacement won’t be willing work all the time and you may actually need to hire 2 people to replace her. Or redistribute the work. Your office needs someone to be able to do her duties when she is out because of the lottery/hit by a bus situation. You need to work with her, set deadlines for how few hours she must work, and redistribute work if it really is too much for one person. Redistribute duties if at all possible.

    * I ask because as a federal employee, I am salaried but also not exempt from OT. I am not supposed to work extra without approval and with being compensated for it. (Federal government also allows comp time in addition to paid OT.) Is Faye breaking the law with all this extra work?

  29. Drought*

    #2 I have several colleagues who drink non-alcoholic beer at lunch even if everyone else has a coke. Its not a big deal or seen as weird as all. Sometimes people ask but usually no one does. The people who drink this normally just say “I like the taste” and leave it at that.

    Don’t give yourself anxiety over something that will be NBD.

  30. Yup*

    While I 100% agree that watching a manager scratch their chest through their unbuttoned shirt is disturbing, this also sounds like a version of dermatillomania–skin picking or scratching–which is difficult if not impossible to stop without significant psychological help. So I do wonder what the solution is if someone is practicing this behaviour subconsciously as part of an anxiety/OCD-like/stress/other response.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      It’s the scratcher’s responsibility to handle, not anyone else’s to try to help solve. Just as it wouldn’t be appropriate for the person to, say, sit down and stand up from every coworker’s chair every morning before sitting down at their own desk to work, and they’d need to deal with that compulsion on their own. Work could acknowledge it’s hard to stop, but it’s still on the person to stop.
      I’m intentionally using that fake example as I think it has a similar level of “why is this happening all the time” factor. (I also have pretty severe OCD, but thankfully my compulsions are not the sort my coworkers could or would see.)

  31. anonymous professor*

    Re #1, I used to have a colleague who would sit in meetings and twirl his chest hair while he listened — or even while he talked. I’m in academia, so I’m used to a good bit of oddball behavior, but this was over the top. Someday, if I ever get to retire, I’m going to write bad murder mysteries set in dysfunctional humanities departments, and I’m planning to include a character who habitually does this.

    1. Angora540*

      I would find the chest scratching distracting. It takes away the focus to what he’s saying. Sidenote: My father got into a habit of adjusting himself all of the time in front of Mom and I. Sometimes he would do it in public. He wasn’t going to quit after we said things about it. Got a bit defensive and got worse. He had his own business at that time and had a lot of women working for him. We were afraid that he would do it in front of them without thinking. In frustration we bought a tube of OTC medicine and shipped it to him at work. It seemed to have worked, he slowed down. Didn’t fully quit, but it was quite a bit less.

    2. Non non non all the way home*

      Please write that murder mystery! I want to read about the hair-twirling murderer or victim.

  32. Rikki Tikki Tarantula*

    LW1’s manager needs to see the “how many buttons to undo” post I saw somewhere:

    No buttons unbuttoned = sex offender
    1 button unbuttoned = serial killer
    2 buttons unbuttoned = normal and acceptable
    3 buttons unbuttoned = back to sex offender

  33. Angstrom*

    #2: Years ago I met a friend at their workplace for lunch to celebrate a special occasion, and brought a bottle of non-alcoholic sparkling cider. It looked like a champagne bottle. We ate outside within view of their office. A colleague saw us and reported my friend to their supervisor for drinking during the workday(strictly forbidden there). It ruined a nice day.

    If it looks like beer and smells like beeer, people will assume it is a “regular” beer. Are the consequences worth it?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Was this a safety risk at the workplace, e.g. working with children or machinery.
      I’ve never had a job that would mind a glass of wine or beer at lunch.

  34. Pumpkin215*

    I almost spit out my yogurt at “fondling his man parts”.

    I’m at my desk. At work.

    Thank you for the laugh, Alison!

  35. Mango Freak*

    LW4 out of curiosity, does any of your team remember this coming up in that meeting? (Or maybe you were repping them in the meeting, idk)

    1. LW#4*

      I had two other team members present (other direct reports of my manager, but not my direct reports), and neither of them remember this coming up!

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        That suggests that maybe it wasn’t even that specific meeting where it was discussed – could he have had the conversation with the other team on some other occasion, he forgot to say anything to your team, and now he’s misremembering when it was discussed?

  36. HannahS*

    OP2, I’m a lifelong non-drinker who is absolutely THRILLED with the development in the alcohol-free market. I would still make the assumption that someone drinking NA beer at work is struggling with their sobriety, because NA beer doesn’t play the same social role as Diet Coke or sparkling water. NA beer is sold alongside alcoholic beer; it’s served at restaurants and bars but not at work breakfasts. That might change with time, and maybe people will start drinking it like kombucha, but its association with alcohol is still very present.

  37. t4ci3*

    I think that nonalc beet would be fine during lunch break, but the tone of it is too casual for most workplaces to drink at your desk. If it’s after caffineO’clock, water is getting boring, and you don’t want anything sweet, there’s vegetable juice, salad water (water flavored with vegetables instead of fruit) and a nearly infinite variety of herbal teas.

  38. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, I think it’s distinctly possible that this is some kind of stim or something onto that line. Not that it really changes the advice much as it is still making you uncomfortable, and understandably so, but perhaps thinking of it as a possible stim or possible skin condition might make it a bit less irritating?

    LW2, I think in addition to the question of “is that person actually drinking beer or is it non-alcoholic?,” there is also just an association. It’s probably not entirely logical but non-alcoholic beer kind of reads as “kicking back and relaxing” or “out having a good time” rather than “ready for hard work.” While water and possibly soft drinks sort of say “hydrating” and caffeine drinks say “energy boost,” non-alcoholic beer sort of says “relaxing and socialising.”

  39. Literally a Cat*

    Number 2 is really depending on the local culture, but I’m going to say it’s more likely than not a bad idea.

    I love the taste of beer, and absolutely detest the taste of alcohol, sugar, milk, or plants milk. I can’t even stand the smell of Kombucha because of the 0.05% alcohol stink. While a good tea or good long black is my go to, sometimes non alcoholic beer is the only thing that I can drink that isn’t water, for some reasons beer can mask the 0.05% alcohol stink for me.

    However, no one can tell it’s not alcohol. Even if you are drinking out of a can with massive 0.0% alcohol label, I can assure you that people have sneaked alcoholic beer into those cans before. In an ideal world I wish non alcoholic beer would look or smell different enough that we don’t need to justify this, but really we are not there yet, and it just looks sus at work.

  40. No forklifts today*

    LW #2 – My company gets federal funding and is required to have a drug and alcohol free workplace. In some cases, non-alcohol beer has up to 0.5% and can make you test positive for alcohol.
    Also, be aware that some types of kombucha also contain as much alcohol as light beer. (Check the label if you are driving, pregnant or avoiding alcohol for whatever reason.)

  41. LP*

    LW #2 – No repercussions followed from this for me, but I can attest that sometimes people will make weird assumptions about what you’re drinking based on how a beverage can looks. Temp gig about 15 years ago, I was young, and as a money-saving measure (and because I was under the weird impression that this was more healthy than coffee) I’d get one of those 24 oz Arizona Herbal Tonics which is a large yellow aluminum can and drink it at my desk basically every morning. This can it turns out, was the exact same shade of yellow as a Coors banquet can. One day someone on a different team who had to walk by my desk daily, stopped by laughing and let me know that he had been under the impression that I’d just been drinking a tall boy of beer every morning. I laughed it off at the time as a mid-20 something who truth be told had probably been having a tall boy or two the night before, hence the need for copious hydration, but I suppose if someone hadn’t been inclined to take a second look and just straight up reported me and I didn’t still have the can as proof, it might have meant answering some interesting questions.

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