talking to an employee about body odor, not having work friends when you’re the boss, and more

by Alison Green on March 10, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Talking to an employee about body odor

I manage a large department with several sub-departments. I have been working myself up to addressing an issue for quite some time, because it is a sensitive issue that I don’t know how to handle without fallout: personal hygiene.

One of the staff members who has been with me for several years has been showing up to work for the past year with an odor that is less than pleasant. This was not an issue previously, and I attribute it to becoming more comfortable in the environment and slipping into a pattern of lackluster personal habits. I do not see any outward signs of depression or mental health issues. They are as happy and chipper as ever. I know that we all wear masks and more could be going on, but these are my observations.

Some days are better than others, but much of the time it is bad. So bad that I do not want them in my very small office if I can avoid it. But the other staff members don’t have a choice, and it is my job to advocate for their comfort.

This person is extremely sensitive, and my fear has been that the talk I know I need to have will cause so much embarrassment for them that they will quit. Over the years we have given this person more and more responsibility, and they are highly skilled and a rare commodity in our field.

I asked my assistant manager what they thought I should do, because they often see things that I don’t, which is a huge asset. They suggested that instead of singling the offender out, I talk to the group and just set some expectations about weekly washing of outerwear and a request to focus on personal hygiene in general. I thought this was a great idea until I realized that it is very possible that my newest employee, who has only been with us a month, may feel that it is about them, since they are the most recent addition. I don’t want to alienate them, especially before I have really formed a bond with them.

To add even more layers to this, I also employ a family member of the person in question, who could also become a collateral damage loss.

I would love your thoughts on this. Am I overthinking this? Do I just need to buck up and deal with it directly, come what may?

Yes, you need to buck up and deal with it.

Definitely do not do the group conversation! Addressing problems with the whole group when you really only need to talk to one person is almost a guaranteed way to ensure that other people will worry you’re talking about them, while very often the person who actually needs to hear the message will blithely ignore it. I understand the impulse — it feels much easier since it won’t feel as personal — but it’s not fair to the rest of the group, and it’s actually not fair to the employee in question either, since they deserve to hear the message more directly, and delivered in a more sensitive way than in front of other people.

It is an awkward conversation; there’s no way around that. But it’s very unlikely that your employee will quit over it, let alone their family member, as long as you’re respectful. The best thing you can do is to be direct but as kind as possible. Meet with the person privately (ideally toward the end of the day so they can go home afterwards and not feel self-conscious all day) and say something like, “This is awkward for me to bring up, and I hope I don’t offend you because I value you greatly. I’ve noticed you’ve had a noticeable odor lately. It might be a need to do laundry more often or shower more, or it could be a medical thing. I know it might not be something you realized, so I wanted to bring it to your attention and ask you to see what you can do about it.”

It might help you steel yourself to have the conversation if you consider that it’s a kindness to the employee to say something. If the problem is at the point where people don’t want to be near them, that’s something they deserve the opportunity to know about and fix.

Related:
how to talk to an employee about body odor
I’m the smelly coworker

2. Adjusting to not having work friends now that I’m everyone’s manager

I’m adjusting to a fairly recent promotion (five months ago) from assistant manager to manager. In my previous role, I had four direct reports, while two other staff and I all reported to the manager. While I had more decision-making authority than the other two, we were very friendly and there wasn’t any question of them reporting to me. Now, after some restructuring, my previous direct reports and my two former coworkers and two new staff are all reporting to me. That’s everyone at our location.

I have been very excited about this promotion. My team is awesome, and it was a very positive change for everyone. My problem is this; what can I do to fill the work-friend void? I know from your own advice, from the advice of my current boss, and from my own sense of the fitness of things that I can’t develop close friendships with my team. They are all my employees. But I spend a lot of time at work and I have small kids at home who take up my evenings. I can’t go join a new activity or hobby group. Should I reach out virtually to managers of other locations in my organization? I just don’t know when I’d have time to actually spend with them since we work in different buildings. Do I just need to resign myself to feeling lonely at work?

Yeah, it does require a shift, and it can be a lonely one! You absolutely can try building bonds with managers of other locations within your org, and sometimes that can be done virtually (Slack or similar?) but it likely won’t feel the same as having work friends right there in your office who know your day-to-day context the way your closer coworkers do. It can help to look for other types of fulfillment at work, like the satisfaction of being a warm, supportive manager who is a thoughtful presence for your staff … which can be extremely fulfilling! It just won’t scratch the same itch as work friends do, which is indeed a lonely part of managing at a certain level.

Ideally, once your kids are older, you’ll have more room for building connections outside of work, which will help. But the next few years may be more spartan that you’d prefer on the friend front. (That can change as they become more independent, though!)

3. Applying to work at a historically Black college as a white person

Is it appropriate for a white person to apply for a leadership position at a HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities)? It would be more administrative work than public-facing, if that makes a difference? I’m not asking about legalities; I know we are not supposed to use race in hiring. But ethically?

If you support the mission and are qualified for the job, you should apply. There are lots of non-black employees at HBCU’s; it won’t be weird.

4. My more junior coworker got the promotion I wanted

I might be emotional right now because this just happened, but I can’t stop thinking about it so here we go. I just got the news that I did not recieve the promotion I really wanted, to supervisor over my current team.

My coworker, also on my team but several years behind me in seniority, received it. I totally put my foot in my mouth because after I got the news I went to share with her and accidentally put her in the awkward position to tell me it was her who got it. (Lesson learned, wait for the official announcement before talking to other people who applied.) I did tell her I was happy that if it wasn’t me, and it wasn’t an external hire, that I was glad it was her (and I was honest about that). At the same time, I know she could tell that finding out was extra crushing to me, because she’d told me earlier that she didn’t expect to get it, was applying because “why not,” and fully expected that if it was between the two of us, it would go to me.

Objectively, I see why she got it. The rejection was also a feedback session. They said that the things I identified with wanting in a leader, I also identified as my own weaknesses, and that I need to come out of my shell and lead people more in project settings before I take on a role like this. My coworker is much more of a people person; we’ve had an influx of new people, and she’s taken the lead with most of their training. We both jumped in, but she volunteered for more and I felt like I didn’t have as much time because of my own workload. Now I feel like I let her edge me out.

Do you have any advice? Part of me wonders if I should stay in this department. The feedback session alluded to “next time,” but the truth is these roles don’t open up very often. In four years, this is only the second time a supervisor position has been open.

Don’t decide anything now, when you’re still processing the news! Wait and see how you’re feeling a few months after your coworker has started in the position. You might discover you really liking working for her! Or you might not — but let yourself off the hook for any kind of decision-making right now while you’re still adjusting to the news.

I do think there’s potentially a real growth opportunity here if you approach it that way: if you agree that most of what you said you want in a leader are also things you feel are weaknesses of your own, that’s hugely useful information! It’s a road map of the areas to focus on to make yourself a stronger candidate for future management roles (whether here or in a different organization). You want to prepare not just for getting hired into the job, but for doing the job well for years afterwards (which is something that a lot of managers overlook) — and this is insight into the specific skills to work on building comfort with, and then also demonstrating.

5. Obscene messages in the snow

I work in higher ed in a snowy climate. The other day, someone went out into the snow and tracked a giant penis across the entire quad — it was very visible from several offices. Another day, someone tracked a (non-hateful, but very specific) religious message into the snow, also visible from many offices. Obviously this is just par for the course when you live and work in a residential setting and on a public campus, but it made me wonder: what would (should?) a company do if someone puts something inappropriate into the snow around their office building? And if it should be removed, who should be the person who actually does the removing (presumably “go into the snow and track it around to hide the penis” isn’t in anyone’s job description)?

Ahh, college, how I miss you! No one makes giant snow penises outside where I live anymore. (When I was in college, one giant snow penis was so controversial that it became the subject of multiple letters-to-the-editor in the campus paper, which is amazing.)

Anyway, if it happened a different workplace, whoever handled your facilities work would deal with having it removed — maybe that’s your grounds workers, maybe it’s whoever would handle it if an exterior wall were vandalized, maybe it’s the building management company, and so forth.

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{ 373 comments }

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    A reminder: We’ve had a recent increase in trolling here, and you can help me by NOT RESPONDING to it. If you engage, you are ensuring that troll will reappear. Instead, please flag the comment for me (just reply with a link, which will send your comment to moderation so I’ll see it).

    A change to previous requests: please don’t reply “reported.” Do not engage at all. Thank you.

  2. The Dude Abides*

    #5 reminds me of the NYE where my roommate and I made giant snow boobs (complete with nipples) on the quad – and then screen-grabbed them appearing on the school’s livestream of the quad.

    This was in the 00s, ain’t no way stuff like that could happen now.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      #5: Yeah, when I was in grad-school, there was also a snow penis incident that caused a ruckus over free speech, etc. Sadly, at my current campus, we have a lot of snow, but not a lot of students who want to turn it to anatomy. A pity, because given how stressed everyone is over all the Fed stuff, I think a dust up about snow penises would really be a nice change of pace.

      1. LifebeforeCorona*

        We had a winter carnival in high school and there was a snow sculpture contest. One class made a snowman and added a large penis. A teacher marched over with a shovel and whacked it off with one blow. The boys all groaned in unison.

    2. Cmdrshprd*

      Alison as a public service I will happily volunteer to come out and track a giant penis or boobs in the snow outside of your workplace or homeplace.

      I can make a snow penis/boob sculpture but that will need to be a commissioned work.

          1. Kit*

            Not only does exposure kill, even mild cases could result in frostbite if it’s sufficiently snow-covered to be the correct conditions for this artistic endeavor!

            I’m kind of curious about Cmdrshprd’s rates for giant penis/boob sculptures now, though…

    3. JJ*

      They found graffiti of male members in Pompeii, and wasn’t there something like that with Nazca lines? Seems like a perfectly reasonable academic contribution from the archeology department.

      2. Goldfeesh*

        More than just graffiti. I listened to a recent episode of Betwixt the Sheets podcast and the host pointed out that documentaries have a hard time filming in Pompeii because of all the phallic imagery.

        1. Poly Anna*

          A Classics teacher in my old school wasn’t allowed in various places in Pompeï as a female student. Some frescoes were also hidden behind little curtains. Of course, they still snuck in for ‘research purposes.’

        2. Storm in a teacup*

          When I visited Pompeii it was quite eye opening to see. One room was a brothel and in essence had a lot of diagrams on the wall that were a menu to choose from!
          Also Durham cathedral has some graffiti carved into the wall from medieval monks…

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I’ve seen pictures of little winged appendages in some illuminated manuscripts.

          2. Llama Llama Workplace Drama*

            I remember the menu on sex acts on the wall at Pompeii. It was amazing how vibrant the paint still was!

        3. allathian*

          Yeah, and that’s just so stupid. Sure, make an R-rated documentary if you must, or pixelate the strategic spots if you absolutely have to, but come on. Nothing shows cultural differences as much as attitudes to sex and sexual imagery in public do.

          1. Archi-detect*

            Id still lut it behind the church fig leafing statues myself, but it is a somewhat close second

        4. Snow Globe*

          A couple of years ago I visited Pompeii. Overheard a comment from a young (maybe 5 year old) boy to his mother – “I just want to look at the penises!” Which, of course, became the running joke during the rest of our trip.

          1. Ms. Afleet Alex*

            I, as a 50+ female, would be SO tempted to respond, “Me too, kid, me too,” but that would probably not be appropriate…

        6. Lenora Rose*

          Phalluses in ancient Rome, phalluses (AND vulvae) in medieval pilgrimages, it’s like people have always had some kind of interest in sex and not all societies were prudish.

          Sadly, the brothel in Pompeii was closed for restoration/preservation work when I was there but we still saw a few naughty bits in other decor, though mostly more standard decor (Statue of Apollo in a temple, fountain centrepiece…). Plus of course the two Beware of Dog signs, many lovely places that weren’t covered in phalluses, some fascinating architecture, and one of the plaster shapes of a victim where you could see the skull and be reminded firmly about the tragedy part that preserved it.

          (While digging, if the archaeologists found a hollow, they tended to stop digging and fill it with plaster to see what was there, as most of the time it meant a body had decomposed and left the space. So you get a lot of plaster shapes of people in their dying poses, or pets or working beasts. Some are on display where they were found. But most of them just look like ash-covered human-ish shapes, and some animals, and they often seem a bit abstract. Seeing the bone that directly somehow made for a jolt.)

          1. Chas*

            The Altes museum in Berlin (Which shows lots of Greek and Roman artifacts) has a room called “The Garden of Delights” which shows a bunch of sexual items that have been found. Among them was an entire cabinet full of tiny model penises, and a Greek urn that was decorated with scenes from an orgy. Definitely dispels the idea that ancient societies were more prudish than ours.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        In Pompeii it is apparently the equivalent of one of those waving good luck cats.

      5. Sharpie*

        It’s well known that the phallus was considered a good luck symbol in ancient Rome. By ‘found graffiti of male members in Pompeii’ I hope you included the actual artwork in various houses not just the graffiti on the walls…

      6. PokemonGoToThePolls*

        There’s an entire wing of the Larco Collection museum in Lima, Peru containing erotic art from the pre-Colonial people there, and boy is it DETAILED and quite specific.

        1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

          There’s an ancient Greek silver piece at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston labeled “Man and boy wrestling.” Spoiler, they are not wrestling.

          1. AngryOctopus*

            Something to look for the next time I’m there! There are tons of naked dudes on the Greek/Roman pieces, but most of them don’t try to disguise anything as “wrestling”. Also, for Drink Wine day last month, the British Museum instagrammed one of their Greek vases featuring a satyr (or something–he appears to have a lush tail but otherwise appear human) balancing a wine jug on his penis. Those Greeks liked to have a good time.

        2. Kevin Sours*

          I highly recommend the Museo Larco, and not just for that wing. The restaurant wasn’t bad either.

          1. PokemonGoToThePolls*

            It was an excellent museum! We didn’t eat at the restaurant there but there was a terrific rotisserie chicken place on the route between Museo arco and the National Archaeological museum that was excellent (and of those two museums, I liked arco better!)

      7. AngryOctopus*

        There are penises carved into stone in Pompeii walkways, pointing the way towards the brothels.

      8. Jonathan MacKay*

        When the Royal Ontario Museum had a special exhibit on Pompeii, they actually had a sort of…. Red Light District of the exhibit – (age restricted, indicated by a red light) – what was on display there were examples of recovered graffiti, items recovered from a brothel, and an overview of related aspects of Roman culture. Quite fascinating from an anthropological perspective, but rather tame compared to well, ‘internet options’?

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My college years were during a drought so my dormmates’ plots of a line of Priapus statues never went anywhere.

    5. Magpie*

      Stuff like this still happens! We had a huge snow storm a couple months ago and someone created a giant snow butt on the grounds of the art museum. And surprisingly, the museum decided to keep it. It was there until the snow melted three weeks later.

    6. An Observer*

      We had a giant snow penis on a field outside of my office (on a military base). We discovered it as the sun came up that morning, had a good laugh, and then moved on with our days. Then that afternoon we noticed a guy on the phone , on the field, looking at it, obviously talking about it with whoever was on the other end of the phone.

      Cue about 20-30 minutes of hilarity as he took photos, attempted to kick the snow around enough to cover it up (which only made it more obvious) and the culmination of two pick up trucks driving back and forth across the field to “erase” the offending picture. It was the best thing that’s ever happened at my job, I think.

    7. Ally McBeal*

      Not snow-related, but I was working in higher ed when Covid hit. After our students scattered to the four winds, I had to enter a classroom to scope it out for reasons I don’t remember now. I opened the door and the first thing I saw was a giant bright purple penis made of cardboard. It was at least 6 feet tall and was propped up in a corner like a forgotten stage prop from an avant-garde, not-kid-friendly production of Barney the Dinosaur. I did what I needed to do in the room and left without notifying Facilities; I hope they got a good laugh out of it like I did.

    8. Phony Genius*

      It can get real interesting if you attend a school with a large number of art majors. At my school, several of them made a very detailed scale model of the statue of David out of snow.

      1. The Dude Abides*

        Not snow-related, but statue-related

        At my college, there was a “holiday” every year that involved copious amounts of drinking/partying (even more than usual).

        During one such event, two teammates of mine from a club sport chose to pose on parallel stoops wearing nothing but the skin they were born in. Someone snapped a pic, and it made the front page of the student newspaper.

    10. I own one tenacious plant*

      The amount of people (boys) that find it necessary to draw penises on things astounds me. Examples include meters long graffiti on a road cut on a remote logging road, balls added underneath the protruding water sprayer nozzle and a carved dildo. I never expected to have ‘we don’t draw genitalia on our work tools’ or ‘no dildos at work’ conversations but here we are. (The water sprayer was artfully redesigned as a hedgehog, the dildo disappeared then reappeared where they thought I wouldn’t see it and no one I worked with had anything to do with the spray paint)

      1. epicdemiologist*

        There was a graffiti artist nicknamed “Wanksy” in the UK who drew dick-and-balls graffiti around potholes, to speed repairs. Interestingly, the authorities would run right out to deal with the graffiti, where an unadorned pothole was somehow a lower priority.

        1. Reality.Bites*

          I would imagine it also drew drivers’ attention to the hazard, so all in all, a public service.

        2. Coverage Associate*

          I have a coworker in the UK whose job was to go to locations in the city where there was graffiti and score it for offensiveness so the authorities could prioritize cleaning it. Racial epithets were most serious, I think followed by things that were offensive re religion.

          So, yes, graffiti potholes could definitely be a higher priority.

          1. kicking-k*

            I saw an episode of the “Lateral” podcast where the answer to “What is Wakeen’s job?” was that he was employed to disguise obscene graffiti along the route of the Tour de France by turning it into innocuous images if there wasn’t time to get rid of it altogether.

        1. Boof*

          >:( that was my college student controversy – an art student left their cross shaped art out over winter break, and the engineers who periodically burn everything burned it, and then when they art student asked “hey where’s my cross?” and the engineers said “what, that junk we burned over break? Ooh my bad, sorry!” all hell broke loose and then after that a visiting prof vandalized her own care and sprayed a bunch of racial slurs around it and the FBI got involved and mass protests and classes canceled until it came out it was self-inflicted. uhggggggg

          1. Boof*

            … on reflection, clearly the problem was I went to college in california; parents only send your kids to snow country where you can have have much easier controversies!

      4. Reluctant Mezzo*

        The US Air Force has legends of the pilots who created giant penises from chemtrails. You can probably find an entry about them in the Duffel Blog (military humor).

    11. Heffalump*

      No one did anything like that where I went to college, and we definitely got snow in the winter. It was an academically good school that didn’t admit just anyone. I guess we were just unimaginative.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        At my school, a bunch of dudes (we assume) went around one fall drawing penises in chalk on the walkways all over campus. I’m surprised they didn’t return in the winter to make them in the snow. We were also an academically good school that didn’t admit just anyone – a women’s college, so pretty exclusive WRT which sex they admit. Afaik, they do admit trans people of both genders now. In the late ’90s it wasn’t discussed, but I do know three people who I went to college with who are men now.

    12. WhoCares*

      I really don’t see a problem it, and it’s SNOW! It will either snow some more and cover it up, or someone will walk over it and cover it up, or it will melt away. It’s temporary.

      1. lyonite*

        Sure, but if it was something really bad, like slurs, you’d need to get rid of it. And a business might not want penises on their grounds if they had clients visiting or something.

    13. Strive to Excel*

      I attended a high school in the mid 2010s. We had a beautiful frost one day; the sort that doesn’t make it slippery but silvers everything. We also have a football practice field out back. The result was football-field-sized.

      What I was most impressed about was that I got to school at 6:45 in the morning, and it was already done, so whoever came out to walk a giant frost penis must have had to get up at 5:30 in the morning to get to school and have enough time.

    14. Ex-Teacher*

      #5 reminded me- Some friends of mine in college built a snow sculpture of a couple engaging in fellatio.

      They proudly named it “The Snowblower”

    15. Elizabeth West*

      Hahaha, my campus at music school had an abstract statue of the mascot (a gorilla) and someone attached a snow dick to it. Unfortunately, this was before cell phones and I didn’t get to see it before Facilities took it down. If I remember right, they had to use hot water to melt it off the metal. And when my sibling started college, there was a giant sculpture of a dick created on her campus.

      It’s a tradition. :)

  3. Just Another Cog*

    Yes to the individual meeting about the body odor and not involving the group! An old employer used to do the group meeting thing whenever someone would make a mistake and he would show everybody the error. He’d start by saying “I’m keeping the the name of the employee who made this error confidential, but we all need to learn from this” and then would show us a paper or file entry with the person’s handwriting or initials on it. OP, if you were to bring up the odor problem in a group, I can guarantee you that others have noticed it and will know exactly who you are talking about. Maybe the smelly employee already knows they stink and is struggling with a solution. You’ll do your employee a favor by being upfront with them. Sometimes, it sucks being a manager.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, this is the equally terrible alternative to the person not figuring out that OP is referring to them. If they do, they’ll realise everyone else knows who it is, too. If OP speaks to them, they can keep it as “I’ve noticed” rather than making it a group shaming. I realise OP is hoping that the group talk will mean the employee will blithely go home and do more laundry and showering without feeling it’s necessary, but it’s not realistic to expect people to do things differently without telling them they need to.

      1. Carol the happy*

        Blame the laundry detergent, fer crap sake! My friend married a European man back in the 80s He had been in a northern country, and even after she convinced him to use antiperspirant (yes, really! he left a cloud. He was always showered and shaved, clothes were laundered, but the aroma didn’t leave his clothes.

        We later had an exchange student from a less privileged part of the world; she had the same problem. she showered daily, but even after being washed in my excellent washing machine, her clothes had an oily body odor.

        The answer is ammonia, to start with. a full bottle of amonia in hot water (or the hottest the fabric can take.) The laundry may need to soak overnight if possible, then washed again with a cup of ammonia or washing soda, then rinsed with a cup of vinegar instead of softener.

        The way you present the problem is all important.
        “Excuse me, Fergus, but I don’t know if you realize this- your clothes lately have a really off smell- it’s really strong, almost like body odor. I don’t know if you’ve changed to an unscented laundry soap, or if maybe your washer isn’t getting the job done.”

        Reassure him that he might also want to change antiperspirants because “sometimes if you use the same one for several months or years, they stop working.”

        Also let him know that Covid might have made it so he can’t smell when his clothes aren’t getting totally clean in his washer or laundry soap.

        You need to present this as absolute fact, though. He may not be able to smell, and after years, his ability to detect it will be burned out. Be private, be matter of fact, be firm, but make sure it’s one subject out of other work information. (Fergus, just in passing, there’s a real problem with your laundry soap or your washer. Here’s the solution if you want to write it down. Now when should the next shipment of Dweebleboppers be arriving- and do you have any sense of whether they’re going to raise the prices later this year?)

        If he gets the message, things will improve, then make sure to comment, “I see you got that washer, laundry soap, sorted. Which one was the cause of it?”

        I really sympathize; it’s miserable having to be in someone else’s cloud.

        If the problem returns, you can blame the washer again- if it’s a front loader, they can stink if the door is left closed.

        Good luck!

        2. DJ Abbott*

          A couple of things: we don’t know it’s his laundry soap. It might be actual body odor for whatever reason. The problem should be mentioned, but don’t assign a cause. He needs to figure it out. Maybe discussing a little bit will help him figure it out.
          Please don’t recommend scented laundry soap. I’ve seen discussions here on AAM that many people become sick from the chemicals that make those scents.

          1. metadata minion*

            And I don’t know about other people, but for me, scented anything used to cover up odors just makes it smell like the unwanted odor *and* horrible artificial perfume. I am really sick of taxis/rideshares that smell like a horrible combination of cigarette smoke and air freshener. If your laundry soap isn’t removing the original odor and grime; it’s not doing its job.

          2. Another freelancer*

            Agreed. It could also be the clothing material the employee wears. When the body odor is embedded in some types of fabric it’s really hard to get rid of it.

              1. Productivity Pigeon*

                I have hyperhidrosis (pathological sweating to the point I get Botox injections to control parts of it) and yes, some fabrics are so difficult to ”de-sweat”.

                I usually don’t wear silk blouses or dresses enough to ruin them but I’ve struggled immensely with linings of blazers, coats and jackets.

                Even with steaming and steaming and steaming, the smell just won’t go away completely, and dry cleaning isn’t any help either.

                Ideally, you need to steam the armpits of something you wear a lot like once or twice a week to avoid the build up.

                1. desdemona*

                  You’ve probably already tried this, but an old theatre trick is a vodka-water mix in a spray bottle. Spray down the area while it’s still damp from sweat, and the vodka kills the bacteria. I use this on shoes, and occasionally on jackets and other clothes.
                  It may not help your issue, but I wanted to share just in case!

                2. DJ Abbott*

                  To expand on @desdemona’s suggestion- I make my own disinfectant with isopropyl alcohol, white vinegar, and water. Sometimes I have sprayed it on my clothes to get rid of a musty smell. So something like that might work too.

                3. Elizabeth West*

                  I was going to suggest the vodka spray. Someone here suggested it ages ago and I tried it on my skating costumes, especially when I had to wear them for two days running. It worked pretty well.

                4. Emmy Noether*

                  Another traditional solution are dress shields! Basically a fabric pad tacked or taped strategically into the garment that will absorb the sweat and can be more easily laundered or replaced. Don’t know how visible it would be in a coat or jacket when taken off, though.

          3. Antilles*

            I don’t think Carol meant that the issue actually *was* the laundry soap, but rather was suggesting “blame the laundry soap” to help the conversation feel less awkward and less personal.
            Not a fan of the strategy though because I really don’t think it actually does make it any less awkward. Best case, he picks up on it immediately and is just as embarrassed and awkward if you’d just said it. But there’s also a good chance he doesn’t immediately understand and the conversation is even longer while you explain it. It’s also possible that he totally misunderstands that it’s purely a detergent issue (e.g., chemical sensitivity) and changes his detergent while the real problem is, idk, not showering after his morning gym routine or whatever.

          4. Baunilha*

            I agree. I wouldn’t blame the laundry soap (or any other culprit) and I definitely wouldn’t suggest alternatives, because the employee could take it literally and just change whatever product he is using, without actually correcting the problem.
            Just bring the issue up kindly and let the employee figure it out.

          5. Mockingjay*

            What @DJ Abbot said.

            Proffering recommendations and solutions when you don’t know the problem’s cause, while well-meaning, isn’t what’s needed and can be very off-putting.

            Address the issue privately and matter-of-factly and allow the employee to address it themself.

          6. iglwif*

            Yeah, for the love of all that is holy, do not encourage someone who isn’t already using scented laundry detergent to start doing so!! It won’t solve any odour problems and will likely make them worse. (Think about how installing a Glade air freshener thingy in a poorly maintained washroom imposes an artificial floral stink on top of the existing stale pee smell while doing nothing to take the pee smell away. Scented detergent is exactly like that — it doesn’t clean clothes better than unscented detergent, it does the exact same cleaning job while also smelling bad.)

            Is the person’s choice of detergent part of the problem? Maybe! Impossible to say, because lingering stink on clothing is often a combination of how it’s washed, how often it’s washed, what it’s washed in (the detergent, the water temp, etc.), how and how often the person in the clothing is bathing, their deodorant / antiperspirant choices, their body chemistry, and all kinds of other things.

              1. Ex manager*

                A third is a front-loader which is left shut after use – it can get moldy if it never is allowed to dry out. Front loaders are waterproof, unlike top-loaders.

          7. WillowSunstar*

            There are also many of us with skin care issues who cannot use scented soap, lest we get hives or something worse.

        3. Observer*

          Fergus, just in passing, there’s a real problem with your laundry soap or your washer. Here’s the solution if you want to write it down.

          I agree with most of your comment. But this is wrong. You simply do not know if this is the issue. So you need to leave it open.

          1. Artemesia*

            Which is why you can frame as maybe a laundry issue but need to mention the need to shower with soap daily and use anti perspirant.

        4. HB*

          A while back I started to read some book about the middle ages – like one of the Time Traveler’s guide books or the like and there was one thing that *really* stuck with me. She, her spouse, and another couple did an experiment. They knew that working people didn’t bathe frequently, but they wore cotton undergarments (like shifts) which *were* washed daily. The author and her husband stopped bathing, but washed these underclothes every day. The other couple bathed every day, but didn’t wash the undergarments. After a few days, the first couple smelled fine (relatively) – the latter couple did not.

          1. Troubadour*

            The key to this is wearing natural fibres – cotton, linen, and wool are all good at absorbing sweat to keep it off the skin. Whereas anything polyester/other forms of plastic will just trap it there. I’ve started wearing a merino underlayer for my ice skating – the first day I tried it I was amazed that no sweat had got through to my outerlayer, and then I was further amazed that no sweat or stink remained on me. (At least on my top half – my crashpants are still 100% plastic so showering remains required unless/until I figure out how to make merino crashpants….)

        5. mango chiffon*

          Not necessarily for this case, but a lot of people in fact use TOO MUCH detergent than their machine can handle and the detergent buildup in the machine (inside the drum) can cause mildew and make your clothes not smell good. Then people overcompensate with scented laundry products like those scent beads and fabric sheets, and it doesn’t solve the problem which is the machine itself needs to be cleaned.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            Yeah, a while back, I did a bit of an experiment with my laundry – each time I washed a regular load (like jeans and casual tops, or a load of towels), I’d use a little less detergent than the last time and see if it still got clean, didn’t have any lingering odors, etc. I was amazed at how little detergent it took to get things clean. I think now I regularly use a third of the amount that I used to use. Using less soap seems to have made a difference in the wash time and how fabrics feel once they’ve come out of the laundry too, both for the better.

            And all my laundry products are unscented/fragrance free, because a) I’ve got sensitivities to a lot of commercial scent compounds (causing itching, rash, nasal stuffiness) and
            b) I find scented clothes, fabrics incredibly distracting. (Seriously … there’s been times I’ve had something washed with scented detergent, or in a load where someone added non-chlorine bleach that wasn’t specifically unscented and I couldn’t get to sleep until I got up and took the offending garment/towel out of the room. The smell was way too “loud” and was keeping me awake, even from across the room)

            1. AngryOctopus*

              I was gifted 2/3 of a large box of tide powder detergent when some neighbors moved back to AZ and didn’t want to take it. It literally lasted me over 8 years, since all my apartment buildings had high efficiency washers and I had to use very little soap! When I used the last of it I contacted my old roommate and had to tell her that the box was finally gone!!

        6. Artemesia*

          good advice. it is more graceful to frame as a laundry issue. make an aside that ‘if you are showering with soap every day and using anti perspirant it is likely a laundry issue — which reminds him to do those hygiene things. in my experience it is both lax hygiene and laundry.

          I have not tried ammonia but soaking clothes for an hour or two in an enzyme product can work followed by wash in hot water with good detergent.

          1. Rainy*

            My husband’s shirts developed some wild buildup in the pits from his deodorant (like, I don’t actually know how that happens, because I’ve never experienced it before), so I did some research and bought him a good laundry detail brush and a bottle of something called Pit Stop, and that stuff is miraculous. By itself it’s AMAZING for stains of all kinds, and when he started spraying the pits of his affected shirts down and then using the laundry brush to really work it in as well as loosen the deodorant buildup, it was magical.

            1. Hot Flash Gordon*

              It happens because the sweat is mixing with the aluminum salts in the antiperspirant and adhere to the clothing. I wonder if there’s more of a concentration of aluminum in men’s antiperspirant or some men just wear more of it. I encouraged my husband to wear white undershirts with his nicer shits and sweaters so they wouldn’t get so pitted out.

              1. Reluctant Mezzo*

                Noting the typo in the next to the last line of the comment–I think you meant ‘shirts’, but your typo also kind of works.

    2. JayNay*

      I sympathize but it’s important OP1 has that conversation. If it helps to reframe: you’re also doing this for your other employees. If you smell Fergus, his coworkers sure as hell smell him. And they’ll feel even more awkward addressing it.
      So it’s a bit unkind to him to let him continue having a fixable problem that no one’s telling him about.
      I second the advice of being less apologetic and more matter of fact. „This is a bit awkward but here’s the issue, can you make sure you take steps to fix it?“
      There‘s also potentially a separate conversation about how it’s important to be able to give him feedback, that it’s normal to continue to improve even when you’re a well-performing employee and that he’s missing out on helpful advice if he takes it so personally.

      1. OdorCanBeMedical*

        How do you know it’s a fixable problem? The conversation may need to take place, but there are a lot of medical conditions that can cause body odor and it’s often not addressable in any real way (people end up doing performative hygiene to show they’re not ignoring it). So going into the conversation you need to be prepared for the possibility, especially if the person previously met expectations.

        1. Observer*

          The conversation may need to take place, but there are a lot of medical conditions that can cause body odor and it’s often not addressable in any real way

          The conversation absolutely needs to happen. And if it does turn out to be a non-fixable medical issue, it’s time to talk about accommodations.

        2. Anon y Mouse*

          Even pregnancy can do this. When I was pregnant my body chemistry reacted with my deodorant to make a most unpleasant smell. It didn’t smell like classic BO but it was awful. I tried a couple of others, but ended up just having to wash my pits with a washcloth midway through the day (luckily the bathroom at my work was a single lockable room with the sink in there too). Fortunately this problem didn’t persist after I returned from maternity leave, but it was a real nuisance, especially during the time before I’d disclosed that I was pregnant.

          1. Bast*

            Ugh, this is one of the lesser talked about pregnancy issues. I sweated like crazy during my pregnancies, even in the winter months. I carried an extra travel sized deodorant in my purse which I had to use several times a day but ugh… and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it that actually fixed the issue. And you’re right, the smell was different than normal BO, but was still THERE and noticeable.

      2. OdorCanBeMedical*

        Also, I missed the part about feedback initially. There are few things as tiring as explaining why someone’s magic fix for your problem won’t help, especially when you’ve heard the same suggestions over and over. If listening needs to be part of the performative hygiene, so be it, but sorry, that doesn’t work needs to be an acceptable reply, preferably without having to go into the details of your medical treatment.

        1. Artemesia*

          rarely is the issue of ripe BO a medical issue. if it turns out to be then you figure out how to protect their colleagues from it as gracefully as possible

    3. LaminarFlow*

      Yes – don’t address the whole group about BO. It is very likely that everyone will realize this conversation is directed at Stinky Employee anyway, which has the potential to open things up to a more embarrassing situation for Stinky Employee. Besides, the group messages that are really meant for 1 person or a small group of people are just so passive-aggressive, and usually create more work for managers who then have to reassure Other Employees that the message wasn’t directed at them.

      I have been the manager who has to deliver the news of someone having really bad BO. While it was very difficult for me to be the person delivering this information, I had to remember a couple of things:

      1. This is MUCH more difficult/embarrassing/OMG for Stinky Employee to hear than it is for me to say.
      2. I would 10000000000% want someone to tell me that I have awful BO way before it gets to the point of my manager having a conversation with me about it. Since nobody has done that for Stinky Employee, please step up.

      So, please approach the whole thing with empathy and kindness, but also be straightforward (I know, a tricky balance). Alison’s advice of having the conversation at the end of the day so Stinky Employee can leave if they want to, is a great call.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have had to have that conversation as well and yes privately individually is the way to go. We don’t smell our own stench so a general announcement is feckless.

    4. post script*

      Covid can damage your sense of smell; it’s possible Fergus just can’t smell himself any more.

      1. ReallyBadPerson*

        But even with a damaged sense of smell, don’t people know they have to wash daily and do their laundry regularly? When I lose my sense of smell due to a cold or whatever, I still shower every day and wash my clothes.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          A loss of smell could possibly coincide with other events that lead to smelliness (just a few examples):

          Fergus loses sense of smell -> Fergus’s washing machine develops mildew -> Fergus’s clothes smell without Fergus changing his hygiene practices

          Fergus loses sense of smell -> Fergus’s body chemistry changes and his deodorant stops being effective -> Fergus smells without Fergus changing his hygiene practices

          Fergus loses sense of smell -> Fergus doesn’t wash his coat because “it doesn’t smell” (to him) -> Fergus(‘s coat) is smelly at work

          On its own, losing one’s sense of smell won’t make a person smelly. But it can prevent a person from noticing/correcting other sources of smelliness.

        2. Elsewise*

          Long covid can also cause pretty severe brain fog and fatigue. I have a relatively mild case, but there have been many days when I’m too tired to shower. I could easily see myself staring at the laundry basket and trying to remember if it’s clean but not put away or dirty.

          This is all complete speculation, of course. We don’t know that stinky has even had covid. The increase in smell could be due to any number of factors. But I think the instinct of approaching it very gently and giving them an “excuse” like in Alison’s script is the right one.

        3. Eukomos*

          Other things can make you smelly. For example, tossing your workout clothing in a hamper too close to your clean clothes can make your clean clothes stink. Standard precautions aren’t always enough!

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        Yep, I know several people whose sense of smell was affected by COVID, one permanently. He may not notice or be so used to it that it doesn’t register any more.

        I had a former colleague who smoked and could not smell the stale cigarette scent on her clothes nor the pet waste smell in her house. (She’d added a pet that the existing ones did not care for, and they started marking their territory, which leeched into the subfloor. I felt bad for her because her house was neat and beautifully appointed, but it smelled absolutely awful.) Once she quit smoking and her sense of smell returned, she was so embarrassed by both and wished someone had told her.

        1. Reluctant Mezzo*

          Yeah, my dad’s carpet had to be ripped out after he died, Because Eight Cats (who were all happy rehomed).

    5. Another Kristin*

      Did we have the same manager??? I get that it’s hard to feel like you’re singling someone out, but sometimes you really do have to say “Bob, you’re holding 2-hour meetings from your desk and not using your headphones and it’s disturbing others. Please use your headphones or book a conference room next time”.

      IMO, when individual feedback is given in group environments, the person who is the problem almost never realizes it’s for them. Best to be honest and just tell the person.

      (This is said by someone who thinks that coworker BO complaints are almost always overblown – I’ve encountered a seriously smelly coworker only once in my entire career, and I work in IT where grooming standards are famously low. If you can smell someone you’re probably standing too close and/or have unrealistic expectations of what humans should smell like. However, if it’s a problem for absolutely everyone in the office, then it’s a problem and Fergus should know about it.)

      1. Artemesia*

        it is rare but when you have someone like this it is excruciating. I remember the puffy coat hung in the office that literally filled the room with stale sweat. She never washed the coat. most people wash a winter puffy at the end of the season before putting it away. She was unaware you could or should and it was beyond pungent. She was oblivious as she was noseblind to it as we pretty much all are to our own stink.

    6. NotAnotherManager!*

      I totally agree with this. Using group announcements to address individual issues is a major pet peeve of mine – it’s often not very effective (the offenders assume you’re talking to others, the people already doing the right thing become concerned they’re not), it’s lazy, and, for your sharp employees who see what’s going on, it makes the manager look ineffective and scared of giving feedback.

      Group feedback/announcements only really work if you’re having a group problem (and if everyone’s doing it wrong, that’s a management failure) or are changing an existing process that everyone needs to know about. Most people benefit from direct, timely feedback (good or bad) so they know what they need to keep doing or to do differently.

      1. OP*

        OP here. Thank you for all of your advice. I know I just need to sit down and speak with the employee and I will tackle it this week. I tend to overthink things like this because I ponder all of the “what ifs”, and that leads to going into a paralyzed state. I know that once I do it, I will feel better and this hopefully will become less, or even solve the issue.

        I will clarify that this is NOT an issue about laundry soap or natural products. It is truly about not bathing and it gets worse every day so that you can track when bathing has occured.

        On a side note: it is incredibly frustrating that I have to address this because we are all adults and bathing and hygiene should be a part of ones daily life without a manager having to address it. But that’s the job and I just need to be brave.

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          It’s absolutely a tough situation – you truly have my deepest sympathies, having been there and done that myself. It is a wildly uncomfortable conversation no matter how much you prepare and address neutrally and like a problem to be solved – and your only relief will be that it’s over and not living in your head any more.

          To get over the analysis paralysis, try making a set of talking points so you know what you want to say in advance. Keep it as non-judgmental and solution-focused as possible. If you have a trusted mentor (not a subordinate), practice with them. One of the managers under me is in a similar situation, and rehearsing and coming up with some responses to possible objections/comments helped them a lot.

          I have a teenager on the spectrum with whom we have some lingering hygiene issues. (I am more direct in that instance than I would be with an employee.) I always try to think of how I would like for someone to treat them at work, if it was ever required (which we are actively working to avoid by dealing with it at home now). We also bought a box of shower wipes and put a pack (along with an extra deodorant) in their backpack for emergencies.

        2. sulky-anne*

          It is plausible that it’s some kind of medical issue, especially since it changed dramatically at one point. I would consider framing it that way, because it feels less embarrassing than telling a fellow adult to bathe more. And maybe it really is something they need to get checked out. Good luck!!

    7. Bob*

      Agreed this needs to be a one-on-one. I worked as a manager at a movie theatre and we had a couple that both worked there who had a peculiar smell. As a group, the managers decided that one of us, and only one of us, talk to them to keep it from coming off as a pile on.
      They were talked to, and they hadn’t realized it since our noses ignore common to us smells . I can’t remember the full solution, but the manager who was chosen (not me), and the pair were eventually able to pinpoint something in their house that was attaching the smell to their clothes (they washed themselves and clothes with regularity).

    8. The Bureaucrat*

      Ugh, this reminds me of when I was managing a group of people in their early 20s (I was only 21 myself), and one of the female staff members had a severe body odor problem. Other employees started leaving bars of soap in her staff mailbox as a hint, and someone eventually stuck in a very direct note. The whole leadership team talked about it, but no one wanted to address it. I wish I could say I handled it appropriately, but I chickened out and never did. As a male, I felt very awkward bringing up body issues with a female staff member. I am not trying to excuse it, and I like to believe I would handle it better now. I still regret the whole situation 34 years later. Reading this blog has definitely added to my toolbox.

    9. Commenty*

      I read the letter about body odor wondering if it’s about a friend of mine… their laundry and showering is totally fine, but they gave up antiperspirant (due to perceived negative effects on health) and it seems to have made a difference in body odor, unfortunately.

  4. KJC*

    For LW #2, I’ve found that the only ways I easily make friends now that I have little kids are (1) church involvement, which I was going to do anyway, and (2) making plans to hang out with parents of my kids’ friends. It definitely takes some effort, and I resisted it when my first child was very young, but now I’ve just learned to embrace it. We try to have someone over at least one Sunday a month, and we’ve had a few people reciprocate (not everyone), and that helps us know who to keep pursuing for friendships. This is a hard season to make friends for sure!

    1. Testing*

      I came here to say this. It might be awkward at first if the only thing you have in common is having kids in the same daycare/school/etc., but it’s a great way for the kids to hang out with their friends in a relaxed way, and parents to get a chance to talk to other adults. It gets even better as the kids grow and you enter new phases of family life together. Some of the parents I’ve met this way have become very close friends over the years.

    2. Not your typical admin*

      This! Getting kids together for a playdate is a great way to meet new friends in the same season of life.

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I was thinking the same thing! I am not a parent (yet), but I do wonder what OP does with their kids on the weekends. Whatever it is, can you invite other kids and parents to join you, folks that you know through their day care or something? Or is there a “parents of young kids” support group or play group that you could join?

      If it’s just that OP wants someone that they can be “work friends” with, then that wouldn’t be the solution, but if they are really just looking for other adults to hang out with, then this could work for them. I do like AAM’s notion that “It can help to look for other types of fulfillment at work, like the satisfaction of being a warm, supportive manager who is a thoughtful presence for your staff … which can be extremely fulfilling!” So, sure, you won’t be able to have work friends at your current place, but you could still try to keep social connections to your staff, as long as you’re careful to not play favorites and keep all the connections open to everyone. So, a weekly lunch for everyone where you aren’t allowed to discuss work at all, perhaps. Think about what you were doing with your colleagues that made them work friends and see if you can adapt that to fit your current situation. I was going to suggest weekly walks or something like that, but you’d want to be sure you weren’t excluding anyone with mobility issues. I think you can still be friendly with your team even if you can’t be friends outside of work.

      If you were actually friends outside of work with your colleagues, such that you went to social events together or even on vacation together, then, yeah, sorry, you can’t do that anymore, but you can still be warm and friendly when you’re at work. Just, again, be careful not to exclude anyone or play favorites, and don’t let it interfere with your ability to manage them effectively and you should be fine.

    4. atalanta0jess*

      Yes! I had kind of a vague hope that I’d make friends when my kid started elementary school….what has actually happened is that my kid’s friends have become family friends and it is the most lovely thing in the world. We just had a random turkey dinner with three other families this weekend, all friends from the school. I rock climb with one of the mom’s regularly. The dad’s all went to a concert together recently, and moms spontaneously ended up at the local pizza place with all the kids having a totally fun and noisy pizza dinner. We go camping every summer, and the kids just play and play.

      Not every other parent will be a fit, that’s for darn sure, but i’ve found kid-stuff to be a great venue for starting to build connection. Get phone numbers whenever you can, invite folks to play dates, and be clear that parents are invited too. We also love to do playground meet-ups, it’s a really low pressure way to chat up the other parents. If you can get folks who want a group text “hey, we’re going to the park at 1 if anyone wants to join!” that is super good.

      I don’t think parent friends make up for not having work friends. Being in management IS lonely. But parent friends are great and make the whole parenting thing one thousand times better.

      1. This Old House*

        This is lovely, but it is decidedly not a universal experience when kids start school. Some of those other parents who weren’t a fit for you may have been deemed “not a fit” by all of the other parent friend groups, too :/

        1. kicking-k*

          I’m somewhat shy and not good at getting together with people without a pretext and I found getting involved with the school parent council was good for meeting people – not least because once I was the class rep, others not on the council would approach me to ask about things to do with school admin, and it was a good way to start conversations.

        2. atalanta0jess*

          Oh, I know. I didn’t mean to say it was a universal experience, just that it was a possibility, which honestly was not something I thought was true before it happened.

          FWIW, we fairly regularly have events where all my kiddo’s friends’ parents are invited, and while they aren’t all my BFFs, I do try to bring folks into the circle as much as possible.

          I definitely have experienced school events and such as exclusionary, I have been shocked at how often I feel like I’m in high school again! That has changed little by little for me, using some of the strategies I mentioned, so I just thought I’d share what has worked for me. I’m sure mileage varies, depending on all kinds of things, including how good many folks in your local area share your key values, etc.

    5. Nomic*

      (I am childless) but my neighborhood just sent out a survey asking for people’s interest in community involvement. One of the items was “family events/families with small children”. Check you local neighborhood group.

    6. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      But also, presuming OP has a partner… you absolutely can try a new hobby with little kids in your life. Your partner can certainly handle the kids for 1-2 hours/week.

      2. Sharpie*

        I’m glad I wasn’t eating or drinking anything when I read your comment!! It would’ve been all over my phone.

    2. linger*

      What I want to know is: what made that “one giant snow penis … so controversial” compared to the (presumed) others? *Only* the size?

  6. Leenie*

    I’m slow on the uptake this Sunday night:

    “I know that we all wear masks…”
    Scrolls up to see if this is a reprint from the height of COVID…
    Oh! They mean *metaphorical* masks.

    Anyway, yeah, I’m afraid the advice is correct about it needing to be directly addressed.

      1. Antilles*

        Same, I assumed OP meant actual masks (e.g., lab or medicine) and the mention of masks was to emphasize just how murderously awful the smell was, that it’s way beyond normal “sometimes people might sweat a bit”.

        1. JustaTech*

          I never realized how effective the masks I wore during COVID were at blocking smells until the time a coworker in the lab came to me because all her cells had died (unexpectedly).
          “Do you think it’s contamination?”
          “There’s only one way to find out, step back, I have to take off my mask.” I took of my mask, wafted her cell culture dish, gagged, put my mask back on and said “Yeah, that’s contaminated. Old socks and scary cheese.”

    2. linger*

      Right: it’s about OP1 not being able to know Coworker’s true mental state (and wondering if e.g. depression could be a factor). However, OP1 should note that any attempt at diagnosing the cause is a distraction from the problem directly at hand, which is the odour and its actual workplace impact. OP1 does not need to get into that, and should not, unless and until Coworker chooses to share (in which case OP might refer Coworker to EAP services). Thus Alison’s script for OP1 merely mentions the effect, and leaves the remedy entirely up to Coworker.

      1. Don’t know what to call myself*

        Additionally, even if depression was a factor, that’s not a reason not to have the conversation. I don’t think LW should try to diagnose anything, they should simply let the employee know about the issue and let the employee take it from there.

        LW doesn’t know the employee’s shower schedule or laundry patterns or health situation, but they do know that the employee’s smell is making the workplace unpleasant for everyone. They can recommend regular bathing and never rewearing clothes without washing them, and possibly speaking to a doctor in case it’s a medical issue, and then they should step back and let the employee decide how to handle it.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I don’t know that I’d even recommend OP go so far as to recommend bathing and not re-wearing clothes. AAM’s script says to say that maybe the solution would be bathe more often or do more laundry, but that’s different from saying “You should be sure to bathe more often,” which feels a little bit too personal for a manager to say to an employee, IMHO. I might be arguing semantics here, but I do also think that offering more hypothetical solutions will be more welcome than directive ones.

          But I do agree that OP needs to have the conversation and not speculate on whether the employee’s body odor is caused by some kind of medical diagnosis. Just be very matter-of-fact about it and the conversation will be less awkward than trying to get into whatever the odor causes might be.

          1. Glitsy Gus*

            Yeah, keep it as general as you can. “I’m not sure if it is a soap or laundry thing, or maybe a medical thing,” is plenty. Let him fill in the blanks on his own, no need to dig in. If there is a medical thing, he can let you/HR know in the same general way.

      2. Myrin*

        I fully agree. I’m not loving all the speculation in the comments which – while generally fine in the environment of an advice forum – could lead OP (who is ALREADY speculating and tying herself into knots over something which, while awkward, requires nothing more than a straightforward conversation) to go down several more totally unnecessary rabbit holes.

    6. atalanta0jess*

      I saw this girl on tiktok who, just before covid, got herself a tattoo that says something like “proudly and defiantly refuse to wear a mask.” Meaning of course, a metaphorical mask, because who wore masks pre-covid? She regretted that choice….

    7. Nah*

      I mean, our family and many of my disabled friends are all still masking, and even several that stopped due to outside pressure are masking back up with all the scary stuff going around right now. Really wish more people would realize that the pandemic never ended and people are still dying needlessly because something something We Have To Go Back To ~Normal~™ and just ignore the at-risk people begging others to do literally One Thing (well, two if you count “Hey can you please not hack in my face when you know you’re sick but are doing whatever you please regardless?” which is a sadly large population of people…)

  7. Cmdrshprd*

    OP2 I am not super clear on what you mean by close work friends, but I would say you can still develop/maintain work friendships with your subordinates especially if you keep it all the same level or open to everyone.

    You can occasionally gather/invite all the assistant managers and/or people 1 level below you to go out for a group lunch, and/or have lunch together in the conference/break room.

    I would say I was “work friends” with a previous boss. It was a smaller organization so maybe that played into it. But we would occasionally have lunch together in the conference room open to all team members, (some bought lunch, others brought theirs from home), go out for lunch, we would talk about movies/tv shows, personal lives (buying a house, moving/renting, restaurants, family etc.), go out and stay in for the occasional “happy hour” (open to all).

    So I would say being the boss does not mean you can’t be friendly/social at work with people/subordinates but more that you have to be more careful about gravitating and/or doing things one on one or even things that are technically open to all but exclude certain people.

    1. R*

      I agree, and think there’s a distinction between being friends and being friendly. There are things I would talk to non-work friends about that would be really inappropriate to discuss with a work-friend. I don’t invite my employees when I throw a house party. But getting lunch with coworkers or having an occasional team dinner or happy hour is really normal in some workplaces. And I’m very friendly with my directs in many ways – we talk about things in our lives, we make jokes, we have fun together, we support each other. But the ways I do those things with coworkers are really distinct from my personal relationships, and I’m even more conscientious about maintaining certain boundaries with people I manage than other coworkers so that I don’t unintentionally make them uncomfortable because of the power imbalance.

      When people say you can’t be friends with people you manage, they are usually talking about those kinds of boundaries in HOW you interact, not saying you can’t be friendly at all.

      1. allathian*

        There definitely is a huge difference. My current manager and her two predecessors are/were warm and friendly in their interactions. I guess it’s helped that they’ve never had to reprimand me for anything I’ve done at work, but I have no doubt that they would do/have done so if it had been necessary.

        A former manager was a very touch-feely person and needed her reports to manage her feelings for her. She also picked me as her confidante, which was nice for me, I guess, and it has to be said that I never felt any resentment from my coworkers for what was, in essence, preferential treatment. But when I was burning out due to overwork (55+ hour weeks when my ordinary weeks are rarely more than 40 and usually around 37 hours), in part due to some poor resourcing decisions she made because she didn’t understand my work well enough, and she, perfectly appropriately, intervened and took away some work from me that I had excessive feelings of ownership for, I blew up at her. I’ve never shouted at work before that, or since, but my behavior was completely unprofessional and in a lot of places I would’ve been immediately fired for insubordination.

        Because I work for the government in Finland, where firing is a lot more complicated than in at-will states in the US, both she and I were ordered to see an occupational mental health professional, both in a joint session and separately. I realized that I could not respect a manager’s right to manage me and my work if they’re also my friend. My former manager decided that managing people was not what she wanted to do for the last year before retirement and went to work for a sister organization for about six months as an SME before returning to my org to work an independent project where she was the direct subordinate of the department head, to ensure that she wasn’t managed by her former report.

        Our relationship never recovered and I guess I was lucky in that she retired during Covid lockdowns. I got invited to her virtual retirement party but skipped it (no questions from anyone as to why), probably as much to her relief as mine.

        But lesson learned. I’m happy to do my part to ensure that my relationship with my manager is friendly and warm. Thankfully, when a new manager is promoted or a manager is transferred to another team at my org, their reports are invited to state their preferences re managerial style and comms methods. Overly close friendships with managers is one of my big no-nos, but thankfully the managers I’ve had since then have been friendly and warm while still keeping the relationship professional on their end.

        1. WellRed*

          You were ordered to a joint counseling session with your manager?!!!! Glad it worked out but eeeek!

          1. Lego Girl*

            The group therapy thing has happened in a department I used to work in at a major US university …

          2. allathian*

            More fact-finding than actual counseling, but that’s basically it. We had the individual counseling sessions first, and then the joint one. It at least allowed us to understand where the other person was coming from, with a neutral third party to lead the discussion. It helped that there was a mutual respect for each other as people, even if her touchy-feely management style didn’t work for me. But it was amazing to see how the penny dropped for her when I told her that I can’t be friends with my manager and still respect them as my manager.

            I obviously apologized for my outburst, and it was actually she who excused it with my incipient burnout, as she realized that my behavior was *very* atypical for me. Thankfully I was able to take a total of about 6 weeks off in a row (comp time + long vac), which was enough to reset my mental health. It has to be said that the last two months with that manager were awkward to say the least, and for a while I mourned the loss of an enjoyable friendship, but now it’s out of sight, out of mind. She’s been retired for about 4 years now.

            1. kicking-k*

              Ah, that makes sense. We have something similar when conflicts arise in my workplace, it’s just not described as “counselling” but either “mediation” or it can be part of the discipline or grievance process (depending on the exact nature of the problem).

      2. amoeba*

        Yes, this! I mean, sure, you cannot be as close as you can be with your peers, but having lunch together, chatting about “personal life things” like holidays/weekends/pets etc, has never been any kind of issue in any of my workplaces – and people have been nothing but professional! I’d just make sure not to play favourites, so if you chat with people etc, make sure you do it with everybody more or less equally. And obviously no complaining about work/bosses etc. But no need to isolate yourself and never talk about anything but work again!

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I assume that by close work friends, they mean people who develop into personal friends, people you confide in about your personal problems, that you socialise with outside work, could turn to in a time of crisis, etc.

      I think a friend is somebody you can confide in and who can confide in you and there are always limits on what somebody can say to their manager so it is likely to remain more an acquaintanceship than a true friendship.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        I can see that, I guess to me that is just a “friend” period with out the need for caveat of “close work friend.” For me personally anyone I work with (even coworkers) can never be “people you confide in about your personal problems, that you socialise with outside work, could turn to in a time of crisis, etc” A work friend or even close work friend will always be a step or two below a “friend.”

        I think I am probably more cautious then most, but my philosophy is “I don’t tell any coworker anything I would not be okay with being shared in a mass email to the entire company.”

        While I will socialize with people happy hours etc… I will not tell any coworkers any personal information/problems that I would not want shared with others.

    3. Work buddy*

      Yeah, I would say I have a pretty friendly relationship with my grand-boss who works at a different site than I do – we have a standing meeting every few weeks and while we start out with work updates we will often spend the majority of the meeting chatting about family or life stuff. It’s definitely not the same relationship I have with colleagues at my level but I genuinely enjoy catching up with her.

    4. ecnaseener*

      As I see it, there are two different levels of social needs being talked about here. On one level you’ve got the need for pleasant social interaction, which LW absolutely can and should continue to have with their reports. But the other level is the need for spending time with actual friends, with the comfort and bondedness and everything. As I understand it, LW doesn’t have any other friends nearby so that need is unfortunately going to go unmet for now.

      1. NewbieL*

        LW here! This is definitely the case; and as Allison suggests, I will try to focus on being a warm and supportive manager and finding outside friends for mutual bonding and support.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          For outside of work friends: a good place to start may be reaching out/reconnecting with old friends you’ve lost touch with (even if they don’t live near you). You already have shared history, so you aren’t starting from scratch, and it will probably be easier to get to a place where you can text/call each other instead of hanging out in person. I’m not a parent but I imagine a phone call from home is easier than arranging childcare/getting young kids out the door to meet up in person.

    5. flora_poste*

      Yeh, I’m one of a team of four, and one of us was promoted about a year ago to be the boss. We still have lunches together relatively often, go for drinks/dinner together as a team every couple months, discuss good articles/books/TV/music. The dynamic has changed a bit in that now my other two colleagues and I vent about stupid work stuff less in front of our boss, and try to save the substantive/constructive comments for when he’s there, but that’s about it…

  8. MBK*

    I love how “reminiscing about snow penises” has started to dominate the comment section right out of the gate.

        1. allathian*

          Same here.

          It may be cultural, but here graffiti featuring female genitalia are a lot more common than graffiti featuring phallic symbols. Similarly, our most common casual curse word means female genitalia, and stylistically it’s a lot less offensive than the c-word in English, more like the f-word.

          The only example I can think of was the snowman with a dildo (!) for a nose rather than a carrot, and I’d love to learn the story behind that one!

          1. londonedit*

            We don’t get enough snow in my bit of England for snow penises to be a thing, but British people will draw a cock and balls on just about anything. A particular favourite is any sort of dirty vehicle – you can guarantee there will be a penis drawn in the dirt.

            1. Myrin*

              That’s definitely very common here, too, but I honestly don’t think I’ve ever encountered a snow penis, and I’m from a very snowy area (or at least it used to be one D:). Possibly penisses drawn in the snow, but not ones built from it.

              1. ecnaseener*

                The letter is about a penis drawn in the snow! It says someone “tracked a giant penis across the entire quad” – ie they drew it with their walking tracks.

                1. Myrin*

                  I know, but several threads are talking about the 3D kind, which I was referring to. I totally missed that this thread I replied in didn’t!

            2. EvilQueenRegina*

              Once seen on the beach (also UK): someone having written a declaration of love for their partner in the sand, with a drawn penis surrounding it. Whoever said that romance is dead?!

            3. Elizabeth West*

              Where I grew up, people would always write, “WASH ME!” Imagine that paired with the anatomical drawing.

          2. metadata minion*

            Oh, now I’m fascinated and want to see if anyone’s done a cross-cultural study on this. I’ve vanishingly rarely seen vulva-based graffiti in the US.

      2. Amy*

        Really? That’s so interesting.

        The teenagers around me just cannot seem to resist drawing penises in snow.

        Just like when they were younger, snow angels with their arms, making snow men or writing their names in the snow.

    2. mrs whosit*

      It was for sure what I wanted to comment on, ha. The snow track kind requires a hill or a view to see best, I think. High school boys volleyball tournament, on the green space outside a snowy high rise hotel, was the most recent place I saw one…

  9. CJ*

    OP1, make sure you read the update on the linked “how to talk to a smelly coworker” post. Sounds like that manager tackled the subject effectively and had a positive outcome. Might give you more confidence.

  10. Vimes*

    #1 is not that bad! I sent most of my career working in adolescent residential treatment and w/homeless youth, so I have had this conversation many times!

    Feel totally free to throw his deodorant under the bus. The least embarassing way to approach this is to ask “Hey, did you switch deodorant recently? I think maybe the new one isn’t as good because it hasn’t been blocking BO for the past two weeks and it always did before. I think the old one worked better for you?”

    My personal favorite “smelly kid” conversation ever:
    Me, trying to be tactful. 14 year old looks at me in confusion. Comprehension slowly dawns across his face.
    Him: “Are you trying to ask me if I crap my pants?”
    Me: “No, I was trying to ask if you wipe your butt, but I appreciate your willingness to have to conversation”

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I love your smelly kid conversation :)
      He sounds a pretty confident guy.

      The OP has the tough situation of needing to be clear to someone sensitive that she smells. I hope that once she steels herself to have the conversation that she isn’t so oblique that the poor employee leaves thinking “what on earth was Boss rambling about? She must be losing it”

    2. I was the stinky employee*

      My boss set a travel sized deodorant on my desk and said, “I know you prefer natural products but I can smell you before I see you so that deodorant isn’t cutting it. Please try this one.”

      It was awkward for a day or so but effective. And I’ve used the same brand/type she gave me for the decade since!

      1. JustNo*

        If a boss tried this with me we’d be having a conversation with HR. Wow. Let me not address the issue and make assumptions about what’s going on and how to fix it. That’s beyond infantilizing and truly offensive no matter what’s going on.

        1. metadata minion*

          I think this really depends on the relevant personalities and relationships. I definitely wouldn’t recommend it as a generic approach, but I can also imagine my current boss having this conversation with me and, after the requisite moment of sinking through the floor in mortification, I would laugh and try to fix the problem.

        2. WhoCares*

          No it’s efficient and straight to the point. It just needs to be said. We need to stop pussyfooting around people and just say what’s going on.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            I don’t think I’d have quite as strong a reaction as @JustNo, but the approach does contain a lot of assumptions. From the letter, OP really doesn’t know what specifically is causing the odor–maybe it’s the deodorant type, maybe it’s the amount the employee showers, maybe it’s an issue with the employee leaving their damp clothing too long before drying, maybe it’s needing to launder outerwear, maybe it’s due to something the employee is eating or a medical condition.

            The OP doesn’t need to figure it out, just let the employee know there’s an issue. It’s then up to the employee to determine the cause of the issue, how to best address it and to ask for accommodation if they cannot.

        3. Artemesia*

          it is kinder to suggest it is a product issue than a lazy doesn’t bathe issue. just like framing it as a laundry issue is kinder than assuming and suggesting it is being dirty. usually it is a failure to bathe often enough — but suggesting it is the product used saves face.

      2. Baunilha*

        That reminds me of when I was 12 or so, and my mom kept pushing to start using deodorant. I just thought she was trying to annoy me (ah, teenagers) and straight up ignored her suggestions.
        Then I went to a friend’s house and her mom simply said “young lady, it’s time for you to star using deodorant”. I’ve been doing so diligently ever since.

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Ha, I remember being the only girl in my cabin at summer camp who showed up without deodorant one year. I think we were 11, and I’m pretty sure I didn’t need it yet, but I hated feeling like a baby. When it was time to call home (this was pre-cell phone), I very dramatically called my mom and said “Ugh, MOM, you forgot to pack my DEODORANT!” Because apparently that was less embarrassing than not needing it yet! (She was confused, because of course I hadn’t asked her to pack deodorant, but did send some in my next package.)

          1. Skytext*

            For an 11 yr old, I think that was an amazing face-saving solution you came up with. And kudos to your mom for catching on and sending it in your next care package!

        2. LL*

          I remember right before my eighth grade graduation hugging my brother, who was just finishing fifth grade at the time and wasn’t consistent using deodorant, smelling his body odor, and ask-telling him to put deodorant because he smelled lol. I did it because it would have been embarrassed if he smelled bad at the graduation ceremony, but it worked lol. He looked at my mom after I said it to see if he really needed to and she just nodded and said, “go put on some deodorant.”

    4. Boystown*

      Mom of 4 boys and went through the whole hygiene talk with them all. The last one ,at age 12, was very rank. When I asked if he used deodorant he insisted he did, we checked it together and he didn’t know to turn it so he was essentially just rubbing plastic under his arm every day. I became much more precise in my instructions with him!

  11. Jellyfish Catcher*

    #2: Been there; it gets better.
    Little kids get easier.

    You can’t have close friendships, but you can have pleasant rewarding work relationships.
    The key for me was honesty, fairness, and a sense of humor. You have to be prepared that everyone makes a mistake and it’s how you handle it that matters.

    Be kind, be fair; your staff is watching how you treat everyone.

  12. Mockingbird*

    For LW1, it may be a scented product they’re using is reacting oddly with their body chemistry and/or something in your office and they don’t notice it or can’t smell it. I had a teacher in sixth grade who treated herself to a perfume that smelled like roses. I remember even smelling a tester and confirming it. Except that, somehow, it smelled like rodent cage cedar bedding in her classroom. After a couple days of students asking if she’d gotten a hamster, she figured it out and stopped wearing it to work. I still don’t know how it could smell so different in the classroom to everywhere else, industrial cleaning products is my best guess, but it did teach me that environment can affect how perfumes smell. Maybe if you approach it from “have you changed any personal care products or something lately? I think it might be reacting oddly to our office air” they might figure out what they changed that’s doing it.

    1. D*

      I’ve gotten some tester perfume oils that smell great in the bottle but the second I put them on my wrists, I gag. It happens.

      1. AngryOctopus*

        Yep, body chemistry is a huge part of scents! That’s why testers are so useful! Although nothing will stop teen boys from bathing in Axe/whatever it might be now (or girls from bathing in whatever today’s equivalent of VS sprays are. I’m sure Bath and Body Works still makes them too).

        1. CommanderBanana*

          Ugh, flashbacks to the girls in my dorm who would marinate themselves in the strongest-smelling vanilla stuff that VS sold. It’s left me with a life-long aversion to any sort of perfume with any vanilla notes.

          1. NotAnotherManager!*

            Same – I was trying to figure out why I hate vanilla-scented product, but I think you just hit the nail on the head. There was a particular B&B body spray that was also really popular that put me off that particular floral, too, now that I think about it.

            I ended up married to someone who is extremely sensitive to scents and reacts badly to artificial smells, so I don’t wear perfume or scented products – I think that also heightens my sensitivity to them when I’m around people with a “signature fragrance”.

      2. Toledo Mudhen*

        It does. I have a friend who tried a scent that smelled one way in the bottle, but made her smell like industrial cleaning solvent.

      3. Joielle*

        I recently bought one that smells amazing in the bottle but when I put it on, it smells like bleach. So annoying!

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Or it could be deciding to omit all deos and cut down on showering & laundry too, to help the environment – but it doesn’t help her work environment!

      1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

        Or maybe they started using one of those “natural” deodorants. I’ve never tried those, but I hear some of them don’t work all that well.

        1. Sun*

          Yes, if they’re switching to natural products, a lot of deodorants will claim to have a week or two “adjustment” period.

          Frankly, it seems like a scam from less effective brands to create an arbitrary “adjustment” period until the person stops smelling themselves. There are certainly natural deodorants that can work immediately.

          1. The Body Is Round*

            I feel like the adjustment period is more about adjusting to how you smell rather than your body chemistry somehow aligning with the product. You become noseblind to your own smell.

          2. desdemona*

            When I switched to natural deodorant, I told my closest coworker outright – “hey, I’m switching deodorants. Please tell me if I smell bad so I can switch to something else.” but not everyone is willing/able to have that conversation!
            Coworker and I were doing a lot of literal heavy lifting in close quarters together, so I wanted them to be able to speak up.

        2. Dog momma*

          The problem is ( I hope) that they are using deodorant instead of antiperspirant. The antiperspirant gets rid of the odor. I tried a new product once and missed that part…back to the store asap!

            2. KateM*

              Deodorant doesn’t get rid of odor but rather tries to overwhelm it with a stronger one. Most probably, without antiperspirant, causes a mixed odor of sweat and whatever the deodorant smell is.

              1. Magpie*

                Not exactly. Most deodorants contain antimicrobial ingredients to kill off any bacteria that’s causing odor. Antiperspirant helps by limiting the amount of bacteria that’s sweated out into your armpits but there is more to deodorant than just a scent.

              2. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

                Some may, but not all.

                I use deodorant, preferably an unscented one, and it does the job. It’s entirely different from using perfume to cover an odor.

                All those “different” antiperspirants that people recommend, or argue about the relative merits of, have the same active ingredient. Unfortunately, some of us are allergic to that ingredient, which causes a rash. I’m not rejecting aluminum-based antiperspirants because I prefer “natural” ingredients, but because of the unpleasant side effect.

                1. Rainy*

                  I’m the opposite–a “natural” deodorant, one of those crystal wet-and-swipe ones, caused such a severe allergic reaction that it sensitized my armpits to everything for more than a year. I couldn’t go back to my previous antiperspirant, and everything I tried including plain deodorant made the rash flare up again. Eventually my skin calmed down, and I found a product that worked without turning my underarm area into a vast raw wound, but it was a miserable year and a half.

    3. Helvetica*

      It’s the interplay with your body chemistry that can mix things up. Some perfumes are indolic, which means they already have an animalistic quality about them, which can be lovely but also, with the wrong chemistry, smell utterly vile. Some jasmine perfumes are like that, for example.

    4. PokemonGoToThePolls*

      I have a perfume that actually turned on me! I used to love wearing it, to the point that I’d already bought a backup bottle and then one day it went from smelling delightful to smelling like pure gasoline. It was awful and my first thought was that I was somehow, despite all the precautions, with child, but nope, just the perfume and my body chemistry no longer got along.

    5. ecnaseener*

      The problem with this case in asking about any changes made “lately” is that it’s not actually a new problem. LW says it’s been a year.

      I do think it’s fine to use a white lie that the smell is a “lately” thing to spare the employee some embarrassment, but specifically prompting them to consider recent changes is going to actively steer them away from finding whatever the real root cause is.

      1. Allonge*

        Yes, best not to be too specific in speculation. There is no way for this not to be an awkward conversation; don’t give people bad info on the issue.

      2. Bast*

        I agree with using the “lately” thing. I’d be pretty embarrassed to discover that I smelled for a year and no one said anything during that entire time.

    6. Nack*

      Similarly, I have used essential oils which are frequently diluted with a carrier oil like liquid coconut oil. Found an old bottle (maybe from a year ago?) of one of my favorite scents in the back of the drawer, happily rolled it on, only to find that it smelled AWFUL. I think the coconut oil had gone rancid? Had to go straight into the bin.

  13. Scott*

    I had a job on a very busy shop floor when I was 16. I would be physically running around and climbing ladders for 7 hrs a day, plus I was very nervous. I was a sweaty mess.

    My then-manager had the conversation with me. I had tried antiperspirants but it wasn’t enough. We were able to set up the staff toilets to have a supply of scented body sprays for anyone who wants to use them, and if it was a topic of conversation that these appeared then it wasn’t being said to me, it just became a feature of our staff area.

    I know scented sprays won’t work for everyone. But what I do remember is thinking it was a kindness of my manager to have this conversation with me. I knew it must have been awkward and difficult for her, and I appreciated knowing it was an issue, than embarrassing myself further.

    Try to think of it as a soft skills coaching exercise: you wouldn’t think twice about telling someone they need to be more diplomatic with clients or to be kinder to fellow staff if it was required.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      FWIW, acne wipes are a possible solution for those with scent-triggered migraines.

        1. allathian*

          They kill bacteria, it doesn’t matter if said bacteria are on your face or in your pits. Any disinfectant works the same way, but acne wipes are usually fairly gentle on the skin.

          1. Crepe Myrtle*

            oh, for the smelly person to use! I thought you meant the migraine haver should use them and that sounded like a horrible idea- those things have a lot of scent. But it doesn’t usually make itself known outside the person using it. Good idea!

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              You can buy bottles of salacilic acid solution for use with cotton balls, and it’s just the chemical itself to be smelled.

    2. Nilsson Schmilsson*

      Sometimes, people mistake anti-perspirants for deodorants, too. Anti-perspirants help the sweat. Deodorant helps the odor. And most people need the combination product.

  14. Definitely not me*

    I got a kick out of that last one, and I’m oddly happy to find out how common it is! My own amusing memory goes back to my sophomore year in college. (1984-85!) After a big dump of snow I opened my curtains to see a giant penis nestled between two large snow breasts on the lawn in front of our dormitory.

    1. D*

      Our campus had a person helpfully make a third figure between two ordinary snowmen having….ah….some fun.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Snow porn, wow. I wonder if it got more obscene or less obscene as it melted.

  15. WS*

    Had to do the smelly co-worker talk. It wasn’t great. It also turned out that her clothes had mildew and it wasn’t BO at all. She ended up quitting over a different issue, but I think she’d already decided to move on.

    1. Pumpkin cat*

      Sometimes it can be hair. Poorly air dried hair sometimes gets a weird, musty smell. Or people who only wash their hair once or twice a month and don’t do a good job of keeping it maintained in between washes.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        A few weeks ago, there was a terrible smell on the tram (to the point people were moving seats) due to a woman who looked clean, but I think her clothes hadn’t been washed properly.

        1. londonedit*

          I find coats can be a real issue – people don’t seem to realise that their coat should be cleaned at some point (whether that’s washed or dry cleaned or whatever), so they end up wearing a coat that hasn’t been cleaned in years. And that can really smell.

          2. Mouse named Anon*

            Yes, I work with a woman whose Coat has an awful odor. I figured out it was her coat, bc on really, really cold days she wears it. She only happened to smell on those days.

          3. AngryOctopus*

            Flip side is when the old Russian ladies in my old neighborhood would get their winter coats out of storage but not air them properly–the smell of mothballs was enough to make anyone gag.

          4. Productivity Pigeon*

            I said this in an earlier comment, but as someone with hyperhidrosis (pathological sweating), the lining of coats and blazers are my archnemeses!

            Most coats can’t be washed in hot water and dry cleaning doesn’t always help.

            I’ve found using a handheld steamer on the armpits is the most effective way but ideally you should do this maybe one a week or every other week to prevent buildup.

            It IS possible to get rid of sweat smell even when it’s been there a long time but it takes a lot of steaming and patience.
            I’ve found vinegar only makes the problem worse but vodka or any pure white liquor applied liberally and then left to dry and then steamed is moderately effective.

          5. Artemesia*

            I think lots of people think since coats are worn over clothes they dont get sweaty. but they do. my winter puffy coat can be washed for which I am grateful. dry cleaning is not always enough.

          6. Coverage Associate*

            Coats were once my tip off that my spouse’s cooking with onions and garlic was out of control. Our kitchen is pretty open to the living room and entryway, and of course we quickly got over the lingering cooking smells inside. But when the car started smelling like onions and garlic, even though we hadn’t put any of the food in the car, I knew that the coats hung near the kitchen and all the carpets and upholstery in the living room needed to be cleaned.

            My spouse’s cooking methods of stretching the chopping across days and the simmering across hours could basically have been designed to cause these problems. I am trying to insist on using the stove fan and storing vegetables tightly, as well as running the air purifier.

      2. bananners*

        Had this experience with my 9 year old this morning! She showered/washed her hair last night but put it in a ponytail to sleep and it was dank when she woke up.

    2. Work buddy*

      My mom had a male direct report whose wife was a stay-at-home spouse. He apparently did not know basic life skills and at one point he and his wife had an ongoing conflict and she stopped washing his clothes. Rather than figuring this out himself he just…kept wearing progressively dirtier and smellier clothes to work – this is a well-educated scientist in the age of google and youtube, so not exactly helpless. My mom talked to him, figured out the problem (he kept insisting it was fine because he showered and wore deodorant every day) and told him he needed to either figure out how to do laundry or outsource it. While all this was going on his coworkers all started referring to him as “Smelly Firstname Lastname” and my mom, who is now retired, still refers to him this way when she tells work stories.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        My uncle (career navy) learned to do his own laundry for the first time in his late sixties. He got it mostly right, except over time his dryer stopped working. When he figured it out he called to ask me (a woman in my 30s who had been doing my own laundry for a decade) if I knew one had to regularly clean the lint trap.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        A work buddy at OldExjob was telling me stories about ex-employees and there was one guy they used to call “Stinky George” for obvious reasons.

        We also had a sales rep you could smell before he came into view, but that was an excess of cologne. >_<

  16. Off Plumb*

    LW3: I’ve got a (white) relative who’s been working for years as an advisor at an HBCU. She’s happy, they’re happy, it’s all fine.

    1. Just Janet*

      OP- I am a white person working at an HBCU. I’m in a very public-facing role, too. I understand that you may feel odd about it (I did when I applied) but if you are committed to the unique purpose of an HBCU and can be comfortable being in the minority at work (if that’s not something you’ve experienced before) then you shouldn’t feel weird about applying.

      1. Mark Knopfler’s Headband*

        I would also assume that not all the students are Black, either – I looked up Howard after reading this column, and it’s relatively mixed. My own alma mater (part of the University of London system) had no single majority group among the student body, as far as I could tell.

      2. Lisa Simpson*

        There’s also different types of HBCUs. Some are private schools with an explicit mission of educating Black students. Some are public/state colleges or universities that historically have had a majority Black student body due to segregation and its legacy, but are open to all state residents regardless of race.

    2. OP3*

      Thanks, that’s helpful! It was a super exciting role for me so I actually did go ahead and apply over the weekend. Better to let them tell me no, right? :)

      1. Observer*

        Better to let them tell me no, right? :)

        Absolutely. And if experience is any guide, if they do say no it will be based on factors other than that you are not Black.

        2. Hannah*

          Yeah. Unfortunately in my job hunt, I’m learning exactly what the term “golden handcuffs” mean…

  17. Freya*

    Re: body odor

    It’s worth checking if they changed clothes detergent brands about the time the odor started being noticed. At the dance classes I go to, if someone is having trouble with body odor that persists no matter what they’re trying (changing sweaty shirts, washing habits, antiperspirant, etc), it’s most commonly that their detergent is reacting to their skin chemistry or vice versa, and switching to a hypoallergenic detergent usually fixes the problem. (Very very occasionally it’s been a medical issue)

    1. Colette*

      I disagree.

      That would be something for the employee to check – but the manager shouldn’t try to troubleshoot the problem, just let the employee know that it is a problem.

      1. Freya*

        Agreed, it’s not the job of the boss to trouble shoot for the employee, but I think it is worth mentioning to the employee that this is a possible reason, because I’ve observed that it gets really old getting told to put on more deodorant when you already drench yourself in it, or that you need to shower more often when your hair is still wet from your last shower, and people usually think that detergent can’t do this when it observably can.

    2. TQB*

      Perimenopause can also cause deodorant that used to work fine become ineffective! This happened to me and I had to switch brands.

  18. Your Local Password Resetter*

    #OP4 Definitely restrain yourself from making big decisions right now! You’re still in the middle of all the emotional turmoil of this unexpected dissappointment and the way it ended up happening. And that can do a real number on your long-term decisionmaking.

    The good news is that you don’t actually have to do anything right now. You can just focus on processing your emotions and handling the rejection and your new supervisor with grace and professionalism (and it sounds like you’re already doing that tbh).

    Once everything has settled down a bit you can take a step back, look at your promotion opportunities and the professional development you’d need to get such a promotion, and decide where to go from there.

    1. el l*

      Also – focus on getting the promotion somewhere. But know that improvement is a good thing regardless of where that is.

    2. Sloanicota*

      Oh see, I disagreed with this. Why *not* job search now? TBH, my own no doubt biased experience is that if you get passed over once for “not being a leader” – to the extent that they picked someone with less experience over you – you’ll have an easier time making a fresh start and new impression somewhere else. Especially if promotions don’t come along very often! I wouldn’t want to wait two years trying to demonstrate leadership and risk them still thinking of me that way. Take what you’ve learned about leadership and start looking, is my experience. Obviously stay pleasant and upbeat in your current role because you never know! But they basically decided they could afford to lose you and not your coworker, IMO.

      1. Parenthesis Guy*

        The reason why you wouldn’t is because you’d be job hunting upset. What you don’t want to do is apply for things with a chip on your shoulder and take a job that puts you in a worse position. I know plenty of people that have tried to push their way to a promotion because they thought they deserved one and ended up in a toxic environment.

        Leaving makes sense, but you want to make sure to get yourself in the right spot.

        1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          Exactly! And you can turn off an employer if they perceive you are more focused on leaving your old job than coming to the new one. Take a few weeks, at least, so the emotions have faded.

        2. Smithy*

          Absolutely this.

          I do think part of being upset about losing a specific job can making seeking something identical or higher status as a comparison. It may take you away from thinking about moves that are a step up in ways the OP wants most, but perhaps isn’t a straight trajectory from where they are now. Things like moving from managing a team to being a senior individual contributor. Or perhaps making an industry change. I know some people who went from being a Sr. Director at a large nonprofit, managing a huge team to being a Sr. Program Officer at a donor and managing a very small team. The overall focus of both jobs was the same, but also clearly moving into a different space, different kinds of admin, etc.

          Doing that angry, just clouds the decision-making process for when those types of changes make sense and when they don’t. Now obviously, lots of us change jobs when we no longer like our job and aren’t thrilled continuing to be there – but that’s different than being truly upset.

        3. AngryOctopus*

          Yes, it’s helpful to really take a few months to take in their feedback and think about how you’d address it. Because otherwise you’re job hunting upset, and you’ll have the same liability as you do in your current job. If current job thinks you need to do better with your people skills, a new job won’t magically make that better, and might be bad for you as you try to navigate a new environment.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Yes, this! Why not work on your weaknesses while staying at your current job, where you know the people and the workplace and procedures? If you move to a new place, you may not find the time or energy to do that as you are spending all of your time and energy learning the ropes and the people.

            It sounds like your current workplace respects you enough to tell you the truth about why you didn’t get the promotion and what you need to work on to get one in the future, so why not discuss it with your manager (not the one who got the promotion, but your current manager) and see if she has ideas on what you can do to improve in those areas, or maybe if she has some specific projects or tasks in mind for you that would help you improve? Could you do more training with new employees? I would wait until you’re less upset about missing out on the promotion to bring it up with your manager, but it would probably be a worthwhile conversation to have.

            But also this, which might be something you don’t want to hear, but you said that the colleague who got the promotion is more of a “people person” than you are. I realize this doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t a “people person,” but think about this…if you really aren’t much of a people person, do you think you’d be happy being a manager? I’m not much of a people person myself, so I have had to answer this question too (nope, I do not want to be a manager). At your current workplace, perhaps the only way to move up the ladder is to be a manager, which is why you think you want such a promotion, but are there other ways to advance without managing people? Maybe you will have to change companies in order to do that, but I agree you shouldn’t make the decision to leave right at this moment just because you’re upset.

        4. CoffeeTime*

          It’s like getting a haircut right after a breakup.

          You don’t want to wind up getting the work equivalent of breakup bangs that you desperately try to convince yourself are ‘totally you’ for the next 6 months.

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        In general, I think making big life decisions in the midst of emotional turmoil is bad idea. You’re not thinking logically and are reacting only to the now without considering the future. If, once the dust has cleared, they realize they DO still want to move on they aren’t going to be harmed by having waited a little while (this isn’t a situation where they’re in an abusive/dangerous work environment).

    3. Smithy*

      Absolutely all this.

      I know that personally, I’m in a fairly niche team at my organization and if I can’t get certain steps up when they’re open – I’m waiting for that person to leave or a very rare independent promotion opportunity. But at my workplace, there are other career tracts where if one promotion isn’t available – other opportunities on other teams within your skill set will come up. And ultimately all of this is a spectrum.

      So take the time to get to a place where this feels less emotional, and then start figuring out the right next steps.

  19. Varthema*

    If there were ever a time I’d want to be severed a la Severance, it’d just be to deliver the kind of feedback that LW1 describes. Best of luck, OP!

    1. allathian*

      Marisa Tomei may or may not be Black, but she’s not white, either. And many HBCUs today accept non-Black students and employ non-Black people so I’m wondering what your point is here…

      1. Bebe*

        Pretty sure it was a joke — Marisa Tomei was in the 90s TV show, A Different World, which was set at an HBCU and starred Lisa Bonet & Jasmine Guy. She played one of the students. I assume that’s what Apex Mountain is referring to. Don’t know if it’s streaming but if it is, try it out – I remember loving that show!

        Also, she’s Italian-American, so yes, white.

        1. A. Lab Rabbit*

          For a long time in American history, Italian people were not considered to be white, although they are now (mostly).

          But to a larger point — just because you see someone at an HBCU who looks white, they may not be. A lot of minorities are able to pass as white. There is a long history of this in the United States, and more than a few good novels about it, including Nella Larson’s Passing, which I highly recommend.

          1. Smithy*

            There’s an account on social media about a self-identified white person attending an HBCU for her social work master’s degree because she decided it would help her be better at the profession. I believe there are also some people in marching band who make that choice for undergrad for that specific HBCU experience.

            There are self-identified white people who attend HBCUs in addition to those who pass. Being intentional about the choice is what matters.

          2. Apex Mountain*

            That’s true, but I was referring to Marisa Tomei’s character from a sitcom who was definitely white on the show – it was the initial point of the character

          3. fhqwhgads*

            It starts to go down a whole Very Scary rabbit hole, as discussions of who is white or not leads toward white supremicists’ POVs…
            And I don’t mean you or any particular individual here discussing the topic. I mean if you try to google the history of it, guess whose websites are at the top of SEO?
            Found this out the hard way when someone tried to convince me (Jewish) that “most jews don’t consider themselves white”. (Spoiler alert: obviously there are many jews who are not white, but once someone implies being jewish and being white have any kind of causal relationship – run.)

      2. Apex Mountain*

        Yes, she was on an old TV show as mentioned by Bebe (Bebe’s kids?) It was a spinoff of the Cosby Show where the daughter went to an HBCU and Marisa Tomei played one of the other students

      3. huh*

        ? She’s an Italian-American woman whose parents are both (presumably) also Italian-American. She’s white.

        1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          But here’s the thing: Italy is a big country and people in the south really are much darker than people in the north.

          1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

            Whoops! Should have said “people FROM the south” and “people FROM the north”.

  21. I should really pick a name*

    #1

    I attribute it to becoming more comfortable in the environment and slipping into a pattern of lackluster personal habits

    It’s best not to speculate about what the source of the odour is because it might affect how you approach it and you might be wrong.

    Bring up the issue with the employee. They might just say “I’ll deal with it”. Basically, the ball is in their court unless they ask you for suggestions.

    1. Space Needlepoint*

      I agree. Speculation does nobody any good. Address the impact. Most odor issues should be able to be addressed simply, and ideally cheaply.

  22. Morgan*

    One of the staff members who has been with me for several years has been showing up to work for the past year with an odor that is less than pleasant.

    Calling out this part of the first letter since a few people are suggesting comments like “oh, did you change your detergent recently?”. “Recently” isn’t going to work here – it’s long term.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Thank you! I noticed this too and it seems a lot of commenters have missed it. The only way this question would work is if you asked “Did you change your detergent a year ago?”

      Which is all the more reason that managers need to address these sorts of things as soon as it makes sense. If I’ve been doing something a certain way for a year and nobody says anything about it in that time, I’m going to assume that the way I’m doing it is perfectly okay.

    2. Science KK*

      That struck me too. Plus they’ve had a smelly coworker FOR A YEAR and just now decided to do something about it?

    3. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t think they missed it. I think it’s a face-saving statement so no one has to explain the part where nobody said anything for a year.

  23. Not Australian*

    Umm, I don’t want to be accused of writing fan fiction here but it’s a fact that sometimes people in less than ideal housing situations struggle with their personal hygiene and laundry. It might be compassionate to consider that possibility when planning to discuss it with the employee.

    1. Colette*

      Regardless of the cause, the OP should be kind when she talks with the employee. But ultimately, “why” doesn’t really matter – this is something the employee needs to address.

      If it’s a medical issue, they can ask for accommodations. But it’s their employee to solve, not the OP’s.

    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      Nearly any scenario that leads people to smell so badly that their coworkers notice requires compassion and tact in addressing – no one has suggested not being compassionate but there is a difference between addressing an issue with tact and in a manner that allows someone to maintain their dignity and simply ignoring it and expecting everyone else to do the same.

    5. Starbuck*

      It doesn’t really affect the advice or approach though – name the issue (smell) and kindly ask that they do something about it.

  24. HonorBox*

    OP4 – Sending you good vibes and lots of support. Go ahead and be disappointed now. It is natural. But don’t let the disappointment lead you to any major decisions about employment. Give yourself some time to see how things go.

    It sounds like you and this coworker are reasonably close. Armed with that, and the feedback you received, you are in a great position to really grow. You may find that there are things you do extremely well that your new supervisor is happy to defer to you. You may find that she’s open to giving you some opportunities to do more and different things to allow yourself to build on those skills. Maybe that promotion opportunity doesn’t occur at your current workplace. But buy taking a beat (or two, or seven) and using this opportunity to build, you’ll not only have a chance to expand your skill set, but also your bank account.

    1. Not An Expert*

      This is what I thought too – I know the rejection stings at the moment, but the good news is your new supervisor has a lot of respect for you! This makes it more likely you will get the opportunity to develop your skills, including those you need for a leadership role in the future.

  25. Apex Mountain*

    On #1, does it make sense to talk to the family member/colleague first to get some ideas on how to best approach it? It the odor is that bad, I’d think everyone would want to help fix it

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Oh lord, no. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to realize that your manager discussed your hygiene issue with somebody else instead of just addressing it directly with you. It would seem like they are talking about you behind your back, because that’s kind of what it is.

      Everybody wants it fixed; I doubt very much they want to help fix it.

    2. Observer*

      does it make sense to talk to the family member/colleague first to get some ideas on how to best approach it?

      Absolutely not!

      Even if there were reason to believe that the LW has a lot of insight to the family and personal dynamics at play, this would be a bad idea. Given that the LW clearly does not have that kind of information, this would be a major overstep and something that could wind up being very harmful.

    3. Productivity Pigeon*

      No, no, no! The employee is their own person, completely separate from their family member in this.

    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      This would be terrible management, and anyone who chose to take this approach should get some sort of counseling/coaching from HR or their boss discussing employment concerns with family members being inappropriate.

      Doing this would make an uncomfortable situation even worse – discussing people’s hygiene or personal attributes with them is fraught to begin with, so having a pre-meet with someone else first has the potential to layer on embarrassment. You address employee concerns with the employee and not with their colleagues or family members.

      You also have no idea what someone’s relationship is with their relatives outside of work. What if the family member is the type to share this information in a group setting or use it to make light of the employee at family gatherings? What if they are not particularly close in the first place? There are far more bad outcomes than good ones.

  26. Applesauced*

    For #1, yes you need to have the conversation. But have it AT THE END OF THE DAY. It would be awful to have an awkward conversation with your boss to then spend the rest of the day worrying that you smell.

  27. RVA Cat*

    LW1 – One hidden factor in odors could be a hoarding disorder, causing a smell in the home that comes with them despite their personal hygiene. On the flip side, it could be they’ve switched to one of those trendy “all natural” deodorants and it does not work for them.

    1. HonorBox*

      The LW doesn’t need to speculate on the cause. They just need to kindly state that the employee’s body odor is noticeable and that they need to address it. Starting down the path of speculation for either the cause or the possible solutions potentially derails the conversation and extends the timing of finding a solution.

  28. OdorCanBeMedical*

    OP1, just be aware that there are many medical conditions that cause body odor, sometimes severe body odor, and there may not be much if anything the employee can do. I’m not saying that’s the case here, but given that the individual previously did not have issues and shows no sign of depression or other common reasons to stop taking care if yourself, you should be prepared for the possibility. I know people who cannot tell when their issues are acting up. If you have shower facilities in the office, one thing that might help if it’s allowed within their medical regime is to shower at the office once a week (if you’re requesting this if should be on the clock and you m.j may need to provide a locker or other way for them to keep whatever they need to shower at the office) and having the person walk around with wet hair but still having odor issues. Other things I know people have done include using an air freshener at their desk (but many folks here push back against air fresheners in offices because of scent sensitivities- ironic!).

    Again, if it is medical, the best you can do may be performative hygiene that makes it clear something other than bad hygiene is causing the problem.

    1. AngryOctopus*

      But if it is medical, the employee can say they’re under a doctor’s care for something and they’re working on it (or maybe need to talk to the doc). And fairly or unfairly, people will be more understanding if “employee smells due to medications and is working on tweaking them” as opposed to “employee decided that bathing was unnecessary and they wish to be one with nature”.

    2. Colette*

      If it’s medical, the employee can ask for accommodations – but the OP shouldn’t proactively decide it’s medical, or try to figure out how to solve it for the employee.

  29. Fenella Lorch*

    I went to a Jesuit college in a snowy locale, with life-size statues all over of various saints. Come to find out, The Thing To Do on snow days was to make very obviously female snow-persons in…compromising positions around the statues.

    1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      I really really really wish someone at my Jesuit college had taken this mantle up and ran with it. I’m thoroughly disappointed that snow genitalia never appeared on my campus.

  30. Parenthesis Guy*

    #4: You mention that this coworker is junior to you. You may want to consider why you feel that way. The only reason you mentioned in the letter is because this co-worker has fewer years of experience than you. Tenure usually doesn’t determine who is more ready for a promotion. There are some people that have been in a job for two years and are ready to move on, and others that are ready to leave after twenty years.

    You should take the feedback you received about being a leader to heart as well as the discussion about your weaknesses. But you should also start thinking some about your strengths and what you contribute aside from longevity.

    You should also think about your workload. Are you doing more other work than your co-worker that prevented you from doing training or is she just doing the same amount faster? Is your co-worker just a superstar?

    If you are doing more work or harder work, then you should ask yourself why. It could be that you’re more likely to get a promotion for a senior level technical position rather than as a people manager. Or depending on how you answer these questions, you may not be ready for a promotion anywhere. This may suggest that you need to change your development strategy.

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      I think this is great advice. I always tend to chafe a little bit when people conflate years of experience with fitness for the job, especially promotions into supervisory roles. A lot of stellar individual contributors do not have the right skills to supervise people, and (in my experience) not many organizations invest in training on those skills and assume someone who knows the work also knows how to manage people to do the work.

      I am not a huge fan of seniority-based systems generally. It doesn’t incentivize outstanding performance, and strong performers sitting behind people whose seniority they will never be able to exceed are going to look for positions elsewhere that allow them to move up. In my personal experience (which I’m sure is not universal), seniority-based systems have also covered up for weak management and an inability to articulate what success actually looks like for a particular role and rely on butt-in-seat years as a proxy.

      I do think that LW#4 did a good job diagnosing where they may need to develop a bit more and where their coworker has skills/experience they do not. That takes maturity and good self-reflection skills. Once feelings die down, they’re well-positioned figure out how to build those skills and look for their next move, whether internally or externally.

      1. JustaTech*

        You’re so right about seniority not being the only consideration when it comes to who should move into management.
        I was just visiting a site with a colleague who has been in the same position for 14 year (very unusual) and she said plainly that she didn’t want to move into management (and she didn’t want to shift to another department and lose her tenure-based benefits). I thought that was *very* insightful and commendable – to know what you want and what your skill are, and to not end up in a bad job because it’s “expected”.

    2. Some Internet Rando*

      I had the same thought. Freakonomics did an interesting podcast a while back about management, where they interviewed someone who had always been a “good student” and “good employee” and had risen through the ranks to become a manager—only to realize she hated it. Every objective measure indicated she was good at the role, but she simply didn’t enjoy it. So, she transitioned into a more specialized, advanced technical position that better suited her personality.

      It’s interesting how the typical career progression assumes you keep advancing until you reach a leadership or management role, even though that requires an entirely different skill set. I resonated with this so much with this dilemma! I’ve always excelled in my work, and I kept advancing but I hated meetings and managing people. Ultimately, I left my last job to be self-employed, and I’m so much happier (and I earn the same income).

      It’s worth considering whether you truly want to be in that outgoing leadership position if you are more introverted or if you just feel like you should be because it’s the next step on the ladder. Maybe there’s another ladder entirely—one that’s a better fit! Best of luck to you!

  31. Lily Rowan*

    #4, you might also consider if you actually *want* to be a manager. It’s so common for people to want to progress in their careers and see supervising as the best/only way to do that, when really their skills lie in being an individual contributor. If that’s the case, you may need to switch jobs to find a more senior, but not supervisory, position.

    I’ve just worked under too many people who were promoted because they were good at the underlying job, not at being a manager.

    1. Apex Mountain*

      That’s a very good point – though often you don’t know that until you give it a try.

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      This is a good point! I’m not saying this is the case for the LW, but there is nothing wrong with deciding you don’t want to oversee the work of others.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      Oh, hi, this is my spouse. Excellent subject-matter expertise with absolutely no desire to deal with all the interpersonal stuff and hassle that people-management involves. He is well aware that his skills don’t match up well with a management position and has been very honest about that with his supervisors.

      I have several of these on my team as well – amazing people, experts in their field, but I think they’d quit if I tried to have them supervise people. Not what they want to do, not what they’re good at.

  32. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    OP2: What specifically is it that you’re missing from these work friendships? You’re right that you can’t truly be friends with direct reports, but you can still have warm and rewarding relationships with them.

    If what you really want is friends who will be invested in your personal life, or people you can vent about work with, then yeah, your direct reports can’t be those people. But if you’re looking for people you can share goings-on in your life with in a casual way (that builds meaningful connection over time), conspire and collaborate to solve problems in your work environment (that are in your respective spheres of control), and invest in the collective success of the team with, those are all great qualities in a manager-staff relationship. The big difference is it becomes less reciprocal because of the power dynamic – you have to be more invested in your staff’s success and morale than it’s reasonable to expect them to be in yours.

  33. CommanderBanana*

    Do not do a group talk about personal hygiene. In fact, don’t do a group talk about anything that isn’t actually feedback for the entire group. It is extremely unfair to make everyone sit through a talk about smelling bad when only one person smells bad. And, I can pretty much guarantee you that everyone but the person who smells bad will leave that talk convinced it is them, because it seems like 99% of the time a manager takes the cowardly way out by sending feedback to everyone, everyone BUT the person it’s intended for ends up thinking they’re the problem.

    I would also think about the ramification of giving someone who is “extremely sensitive” more and more responsibility. That’s usually a recipe for disaster.

    1. A. Lab Rabbit*

      Agreed. A group talk is a really bad idea. If the other employees have noticed the smell, they’re going to sit in that meeting looking at smelly employee and knowing it’s about them. And they may resent this employee even more (not to mention the manager) for making them sit through an uncomfortable meeting that they shouldn’t have to attend.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Yeah, also? You don’t get to have body odor so bad that your coworkers are having trouble being in the same space with you and be ‘extremely sensitive.’*

        *Caveat here before the BUT WHAT IF IT’S MEDICAL?!?!? Brigade rides in.

        I’m having flashbacks to the increasingly desperate emails our HR director at a previous sent to everyone about dress code, when it was one person who couldn’t dress herself without the bottom half of her butt cheeks being visible. Instead of having one conversation with one person about the need for her clothing to cover the lower half of her buttocks, we were all subjected to a serious of increasingly unhinged emails about dress code and looking “professional” over a series of months, and the person in question never changed her clothing because it never occurred to her that the way she dressed was a problem.

        1. A. Lab Rabbit*

          Oh, lord. Usually it’s “this meeting could have been a meeting” but here’s a case where “these emails should have been a meeting”.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        Or, worst case scenario when the issue has not been addressed for a year and ends up as a group meeting, it’s not just looking at the employee, it’s someone actually saying, “Look, we all know this is about Bob.” and then it turning into a pack mentality meeting with everyone telling Bob how badly he smells. It’s going to be nearly impossible to get that meeting back onto the rails, and Bob’s going to feel worse than if it was addressed individually.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I also think it would sound a bit like an elementary or middle school teacher addressing a class, if a boss told everybody to remember to change their clothes and wash regularly. I’m not sure I’d even take that as implying anybody had a hygiene issue. I’d just think it was a manager who thought that being a boss meant managing people’s lives.

      Of course it would depend on how it was said, but I think it would be very easy to come across as patronising and also for the person in question not to even realise this was about a problem.

      And of course, the person in question is very likely to think it doesn’t apply to them anyway.

      1. JustaTech*

        Really the only time a presentation like that makes sense is at the beginning of a communal living situation where everyone is young/new to the entire idea.
        Like, at sleep-away summer camp it makes sense that you have to tell kids/tweens/teens that they have to bathe and change their clothes.
        Or as part of freshman orientation – there’s a lot of basic information about living with other people that is shared very bluntly (not unkindly but very plainly) including “you must change your shirt and underwear daily” and “personal hygiene is not optional” along with “respect your roommate’s need for sleep”, “here are the rules for the laundry room/kitchen/bathroom”.

  34. CzechMate*

    LW 3 – My sister in law is a white, non-indigenous admin for a nonprofit that helps unhoused members of certain tribes in the Western US. The official mission of the org is promoting indigenous peoples, and so they typically hire tribal members. She is one of two white, non tribal employees.

    She has been recognized as “manager of the year” two years in a row, so officially, everything is going great there. In practice, she has said that while she is recognized for good work, she feels they aren’t necessarily *incentivized* to keep her as an employee. That’s fine, of course, and there certainly should be more spaces to help indigenous folks grow professionally, but it does mean she doesn’t feel it’s the place for her to advance in her career. Just something to consider long-term.

  35. Amber Rose*

    I also really miss university. One of the hallways had an absolutely enormous painting that was just a puzzle made of penis shapes. So clearly the answer here is to give them a canvas and some paint and make it permanent. ;P

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      My roommate was in marching band, and apparently there were some pretty racy configurations.

  36. Observer*

    #1- Employee body odor.

    There are a lot of good reasons to not follow your assistant’s advice. Allison alluded to the most common ones. I’m sure that by now a lot of people have gone into a lot of detail on this.

    But there is a fundamental mistake that you are making, and that is that you are making assumptions about what is happening and what would work. And you have absolutely no way to guess. It’s not just about you not having any way to know if she has mental health struggles right now. It’s also that you have no real idea of how often she showers, what her laundry schedule looks like, etc.

    What you are seeing is a symptom of something, but you have no idea *what* it is a symptom of, so going in with “you need to do X” (no matter how seeming reasonable it might be) is not a good idea, because X may very well be irrelevant to the situation.

    I’d point out that it’s not really common for *healthy* people to let their hygiene slip this badly just because they have become “comfortable” in their workplace. It’s not on you to even try to diagnose, but it does speak to the need to avoid assumptions about what is going on and to be kind and respectful but also clear and direct.

  37. Who knows*

    #1 Please do not assume they are not dealing with mental health issues just because they seem happy. No one ever noticed that I was depressed, but I sure as hell was.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      The LW recognizes that this may be the case, but they can only work based on what they are seeing.

      1. A. Lab Rabbit*

        Yeah, but it’s not up to the manager to try to diagnose what is going on. They just need to deal with the issue and let the employee come up with a solution on their own or to ask for help.

        I sometimes wonder if managers don’t want to have these conversations partly because they feel they need to figure out the reason and come up with a solution. But they don’t. They just need to address the issue like any other performance issue. Be kind, be objective, and be straightforward.

  38. anony for this*

    #4: No advice, just sympathy– I also recently lost out on a promotion to someone significantly junior, on a job I’d been doing in an acting role for 5 years, and everyone in the office expected I’d get. It was a real kick in the gut and has left me questioning my own competency. I am also thinking about leaving, though haven’t made any decisions yet.

  39. Turtlewings*

    #5 – I’m reminded of that guy who started drawing obscene art (and I mean in outdoor paint, not chalk) in/around long-unaddressed potholes so that finally someone would come fix it. After all, the quickest and surest way to get rid of unwanted art on a spot that needed more asphalt was to cover it in asphalt, and it would be pretty darn hard to explain why they DIDN’T at that point. It worked!

    This being a college campus, I’m sure the art was intended as purely mischievous, but it does occur to me that if one, for instance, desperately needed to get a parking lot snowplowed…

  40. Merry go round and round*

    I’m just going to throw this out to LW#1 the boss with smelly employee, because it wasn’t really clear what kind of smell- is it at all possible that this employee changed detergents or perfumes and you are sensitive to the new smell? I ask only because a close coworker of mine started wearing a new perfume about a year ago, and whenever she wears it I think she smells like cat pee. I feel like, along the same lines of some people thinking cilantro tastes like soap, some smells are equally polarizing

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      It doesn’t sound like the LW is the only one having an issue with the smell, though. Even if they were, that doesn’t change the advice of how to approach them about it.

      1. Merry go round and round*

        I agree with framing it the same, I only brought it up because I often find these types of things get addressed from the angle that something is wrong or going on with the “smelly” person, but never through the lens that there could be external causes for the smell-er too, and a lot of times discussion boards (I see this kind of thing come up all the time on facebook groups I’m in, or other advice columns) lean toward blaming someone instead of helping them. I just re-read it to make sure my reading was right, the whole letter reads with “I” statements, it mentions asking someone else for advise on how to address it but doesn’t mention if they had noted the smell as well.

        The fact that it is better sometimes than others does make me think another commenter could be correct, it could be a mold issue in this persons closet, her health could be at risk

  41. Lisa*

    LW3, thank you for being sensitive and asking the question, but as long as you’re enthusiastic about supporting the mission of the school you should apply!

  42. No aurora*

    #5 i was in a similar spot last year (except the person chosen was announced and I wasn’t informed in advance). It really does sting but try to take it with grace, it gets easier and you might come to find you’re glad it went down the way it did (I know I am, my now manager is doing a better job than I would!)

  43. Whole Class Misses Recess*

    LW1, I want to reiterate and amplify that lecturing the entire group about a problem with one individual is almost never a valid management strategy. Often, the offender thinks you’re not talking to them, and it wastes the time and good will of the rest of the group. If your instinct as a manager is to be conflict avoidant, please explore this in professional development.

  44. Cafe au Lait*

    OP #1: Has your employee gotten a new washer recently? Front door loaders are notorious for developing a mildew issue in the seal.

    When you talk with them, focus on the external. Tell them that this issue hasn’t existed for all of their employment; it’s a new development. Is it a new washer? Did they change brands of laundry detergent or fabric softener? Did they move and their new closet has a mildow issue? (Which would also be a health issue).

    I think by focusing on external circumstances, you’re subtly telling them it’s not personal and it’s fixable.

    1. Broadway Duchess*

      I’d stay away from naming any causes, internal or external. It’s too speculative and has the potential to derail what should be a brief, kind, and clear conversation.

  45. an.on.y.mous.1*

    Recognizing that this may not work for everyone, some outside activities are small-kid friendly. Fave example is parkrun – free weekly 5K walk/runs organized entirely by volunteers in many countries and often frequented by parents with strollers/buggies. Great place to meet people and spend some time outside.

  46. Skytext*

    A lot of people are coming up with suggestions citing that this is a “new” problem. But it’s not! It has been going on for over a year. So that adds a new wrinkle in trying to address it.

  47. Alicent*

    I was a white employee at an HBCU for almost three years. It was something that we discussed from time to time and sometimes joked about, but really wasn’t an issue for almost anyone. One person did seem to have a problem, but they had a problem with just about everything so it wasn’t me. You need to approach things with more sensitivity and thought sometimes, but it really wasn’t that different than working on a multinational team at another job. We had different backgrounds, but we were all people and I wasn’t the only white employee.

  48. MsSolo (UK)*

    A little solidarity for LW2. It’s hard to know whether things have changed post-covid (and post most parents working fulltime) or whether narratives about baby club and school gate friendships were always biased to the people it worked for, but being a parent is much more isolating than I anticipated.

    When we talk about the mental load of parenthood in terms of managing appointments and meals and shopping for an additional person, I think we don’t always talk about the mental load of managing their social life too. Living two lives really takes up a lot of time as well as effort; arranging playdates is so much easier said than done when most kids in my daughter’s class are in at least one activity at weekends, plus visiting family, hanging out with pre-existing friends, keeping up with basic life maintenance, and, of course, constantly ill. You need to be an events specialist to arrange a cup of coffee. Maintaining pre-existing friendships with non-parent friends gets complicated too; you don’t realise how much of your relationships with other adults take place in non-kid-friendly events at non-kid-friendly times (and you can’t meet up at kid friendly times unless they want to come to you kid’s swimming class or haircut with you!).

    I changed jobs when my kid was in nursery, and when i had to get my remortgage witnessed it drilled home that it had been over 6 months since I’d spent time with an adult I didn’t have a financial relationship with other that my husband. I joined a hobby group, I arranged playdates for my daughter, I reached out to my existing friends to try and spend more time together, and two years later I am once again forced to resort to handing a mortgage deed to someone in my (new) office whose name I don’t even know because the conveyancers don’t want to wait the three months it takes to organise actually seeing other adults socially.

    It is a season of life, but it can be a really long one, and I think the desire to try and get ahead and plan for friendships now you’ve got to let some existing ones slip into neutral is really positive. Look for network groups, look for training sessions aimed at new managers, look for fundraising coffee mornings, look for other colleagues who’ve moved up in the past. It doesn’t feel fair when you’re already shouldering the additional mental load of parenthood, but the effort of making and of maintaining friendships is going to land on you rather than the people who aren’t balancing a new job/small children, because their need is lower.

  49. Jamie Vegas*

    For #4 – I didn’t get the promotion I had been training for almost 3 years for. Instead, I was told I was basically failing by the hiring committee, and that the outside person they brought in would be able to teach me what I was lacking. That outside person that had the same credentials I did. Did the same stuff I did, but at a smaller level.

    I moved on less than a year after I didn’t get it, and I was job hunting weeks after. I don’t regret not waiting, and my fury and frustration led me to get an even better job than the one I missed out on.

  50. Lily Potter*

    #2 – you mention that you’re having trouble making friends outside of work. Think back to before you had kids – did you lose track of any single friends during the crazy newborn stage? Give one of those old friends a ring and ask them out to lunch. Spend an hour catching up with them, spending no more than 10-15 minutes total talking about your kids. You can do it – talk about your family of origin (if your friend knew them), work, religion, politics, celebrity gossip – just don’t spend the whole lunch talking about your kids. I’ve lost several friends during their childbearing years because they either wouldn’t make time for me or would only talk about their kids when we were together. Trust me – these child-free friends would love to renew your friendship if it’s on an equal give-and-take plane.

    1. MsSolo (UK)*

      From the perspective of a parent, I think you’re underestimating the mental load on your former friends. Equal give-and-take in terms of the time and effort it takes to arrange meeting looks very different when you’ve got to check multiple people’s calendars and potentially arrange childcare; it’s like the difference between trying to arrange lunch for a CEO vs a friend that works part time. And it’s fine if you don’t want to talk about kids, but be aware you’re going to have to do most of the talking, because if you want them to reduce 90% of their life to 20% of the conversation, they’re not going to have much to contribute (but they will appreciate being caught up on what happened in that show you guys used to watch together because they haven’t had time to catch an episode since 2021).

      Your friends want to hear from you, they want to maintain those friendships, but they don’t want to put in all of their free time organising lunch to have to put even more effort in to cosplay as pre-kid versions of themselves, any more than you’d want to have to meet up with someone from high school and pretend to be a teenager again.

  51. Laura W.*

    LW #1 – I have had to have the body odor conversation with a volunteer. Instead of saying “odor” or “smelly” or any words with a negative connotation, I framed it as a “strong personal scent” which led into a discussion about respect for other people in the office. I had the conversation at the end of the volunteer’s shift so he could go home after we talked. He did offer some suggestions – not coming straight from the gym, showering before arriving – and he never had a “strong personal scent” again. To be clear, it was body odor but I didn’t need to say that explicitly. It was a kindness not to.

    On the flip side, I had a coworker with terrible body odor. It was so bad I would have to breathe through my mouth if I was sitting next to her. It was clear it was a hygiene issue; she had greasy hair with dandruff, her clothes were stained, she wore the same things over and over. Finally, I delicately brought it up to a coworker and we realized everyone could smell her but no one wanted to say anything because it was a delicate matter.

    I went to our shared supervisor and he said he would take care of it. For some reason, it had to get escalated to our board of directors (this was nonprofit) before it could be addressed with her. It did not get resolved and I brought it up at least four more times and each time he assured me he talked to her and gave her a week to get it resolved. It was never resolved. The last time I brought it up, I was assured it would be addressed before we moved into our new office with new furniture. It was not. It was finally resolved when she quit. Luckily her replacement lost her sense of smell as a teenager. I cannot imagine being trained by this coworker in her cube with how she smelled.

    I share this story to emphasize that it’s affecting everyone else on the team and it needs to be resolved sooner rather than later. Not only was the body odor the problem, it was also our supervisor’s inability to get this resolved; he never implemented any consequences, he only talked to her and took her word she would resolve it over and over.

  52. NoMoreNaturalDeodorantForMe*

    LW #1: PLEASE do not do the group thing, because while Alison’s hypothetical of what could happen (someone else thinks it’s about them, the smelly person is oblivious), here’s the other option: they DO know you’re talking about them and they have to realize in front of all their coworkers that probably everyone in the room also realizes you’re talking about them and be completely mortified.

  53. Jules the 3rd*

    LW1: Please just talk to the employee. Remind them that you value their skills and friendliness, it’s just this thing that’s a problem.

    If it was me, I would like you approach me directly and discreetly, the way my team lead did when my raw broccoli got smelly. If it was not me and there was a group talk, I would totally assume it was me and wash everything twice.

    LW2: Yeah, parenting small kids can get lonely. Do try to work out a night a week for each parent where you’re not on parenting duty, so that you each have room if you get the energy to start a hobby. Consider an industry group, they usually only have formal meetings once a month, but you may connect to someone in your area with whom you could occasionally lunch.

    And remember, while you can’t be friends, you can still be friend-ly: you can eat lunch with the team, as long as it’s with a rotating group and / or you build in similar time for anyone who isn’t in the lunches. My last job had a cafeteria, and it was normal for Directors and VPs to eat there with whoever else was there. We didn’t have C-suite on site, but everyone else up to the top people on site just came in to eat, no big deal.

  54. Raida*

    “They suggested that instead of singling the offender out, I talk to the group and just set some expectations about weekly washing of outerwear and a request to focus on personal hygiene in general. ”

    What a terrible idea – and let’s be clear here, washing your HANDS and JACKET don’t change body odour.
    That’s just giving really weird feedback to staff, and sounds like you’d be saying “Hygiene – wash your goddamn hands. plus Appearance – clean your clothes they are grubby we have some standards here ffs.”

    Manage! I don’t care that they are sensitive – you are paid to take on this responsibility. We had a guy who smelt bad and the managers didn’t want to do anything about it, until staff started saying “Hey can someone tell Glenn to wash his clothes? And teeth? And neck?” these being the parts we could SEE were not clean. Finally they did, he got better for a while, figured out his clothes were drenched in the smell, got new ones, and then backslid because the managers… didn’t want to talk about it. HE LEFT A TRAIL OF SMELL. His collar had mould on it. His teeth just straight out didn’t get brushed.

    Do not just let it go because uncomfortable, and do not let it get to the point where your hand is forced from staff complaints.

  55. Jen*

    For the situation in LW3 – I’m curious, legally can the college ask non-Black applicants any questions around why they want to work there and if they’ve how they may have to approach the role differently than others? I’m white, but I would think it’s important to ensure that they’re hiring someone who feels strongly about being an ally (in the right ways) and has considered how they would build trust with students and colleagues. I’m just wondering if that’s legal to ask since obviously if a predominantly white org was hiring a non-white person asking similar questions would be the biggest red flag ever.

    1. Broadway Duchess*

      My husband is white and worked at an HBCU. During his interviews, he was asked lots of questions about DEI, lots of scenario-based questions about the student population, and examples of community involvement. Some of that was because of the specific role he was interviewing for and some was to ensure the candidates had the understanding of the student body and the organizations therein.

      “I’m just wondering if that’s legal to ask since obviously if a predominantly white org was hiring a non-white person asking similar questions would be the biggest red flag ever.”

      Predominantly-white orgs should really have no reason to ask these questions. What special circumstances exist at, like, Yale that a
      person of color would need to speak to?

  56. Cinderella*

    LW1 – You might want to consider having the conversation just before the weekend. Not only do they get to go home right after the conversation, but it also ensures they have ample time to address the issue before they have to come back.

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